Uninsured
As well as the horse race I thought we'd take a look at some of the issues in the final days.
Health: in Wichita, Kansas I have just met Amy Clarke who was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease in her early twenties before she had even thought of getting insurance.
She is not feckless and the cost to society of her getting seriously ill is huge (she is bringing up three young children) and yet in the richest nation on earth she cannot afford to go to a specialist ...
In order to see this content you need to have both Javascript enabled and Flash installed. Visit BBC Webwise for full instructions. If you're reading via RSS, you'll need to visit the blog to access this content.
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~15~RS~)
CommentsSign in
You need to sign in to contribute to this page. If you're new to BBC Blogs, creating your membership is quick and easy.
Ralph Nader, unlike Obama and McCain, is for single-payer healthcare.
You wouldn't have heard about that on the debates, though...
Complain about this comment
How much does National Insurance cost in Britain? How much is the average American's health insurance premiums?
As Michael Moore says, Americans do pay less taxes... but that's only because they give certain taxes different names (i.e. health insurance)
Complain about this comment
To Justin Webb
In my opinion you have picked at the scab of a nasty wound in the US. The truth is, if a person can not scrape up the money to see a doctor or get treatment many will do without.
I could share more stories like the one you have shared but would not bore our good posters who may have examples of their own.
This is an important issue that must be addressed in this country. I think that the economic problems of many people might have a direct connection to lack of adequate health insurance and dealing with serious health conditions that the must pay for from their own income or do without.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is seldom mentioned when the US health care crisis is brought up is the number of "under insured" and the hurdles that those insured have to go through when we are afflicted by a catastrophic illness.
I was recently diagnosed as having a large malignant tumor in my right kidney, and even though I am eligible for MEDICARE and have supplemental insurance I am still struggling with coverage problems and relatively high out of pocket expenses and caps for hospitalization, analyses, and other surgical costs.
Insinuations that those who are having problems receiving or financing health care are irresponsible individuals who somehow do not contribute or plan for their own healthcare ignore the reality that most of us worked our entire adult lives, paid taxes, contributed to Social Security and Medicare, paid for healthcare insurance, and never received government assistance of any kind. In effect, we pay into a system our entire professional lives that only provides substandard care when we need it the most.
Complain about this comment
#3 - "Picked at the scab of a nasty wound", eh ?
Just the same ol' same ol' agenda-driven conformity from the BBC. As always, only one side of the story.
As long as we're quoting anecdotes, here's another perspective - one you won't hear on the BBC.
This weekend, I hosted a gentleman from Tehran, Iran. I asked him what brought him to Texas.
He was having a surgery.
I asked "Why come to America ? Why not Canada ? Europe ?"
"Because the quality of care is highest in America ", he answered.
Complain about this comment
I'm not sure whether Justin Webb reads these comments, if he does, I wonder if he might ask Amy Clarke to contact me on the email address given when I registered.
Failing that, could he act as a conduit. I also have Crohn's disease and have found a way of controlling it which is very effective and low cost - it doesn't involve any medication.
I understand that Justin will be reluctant to pass this on, but having lived with Crohn's for 14 years, I wouldn't want anyone to suffer this debilitating condition when there is a natural remedy, with no side effects available.
Please be assured that I will not profit from this advice in any way. It is given free in the hope that Amy and her family will be able to live a more fulfilled life.
Complain about this comment
Health care has to be totally restructured. First the middlemen has to be eliminated and, second, the drug houses have stop gouging. I can get American drugs cheaper abroad.
Expanding our present system makes it much more unwieldi and expensive. We can't afford it.
Complain about this comment
allymarbles, you should read this:
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/02/25/nader-on-health-care-single-payer-is-the-way-to-go/
Complain about this comment
8. further to the above.
The HMO's and and prescription providers are on the New York Stock Exchange. Need I say more?
Complain about this comment
2.Hands..
If I recall exactly, but it is something like. Your employer pays around 10% of your earnings to the Govt. Whereas you personally pay around 1% of your gross pay. So, approx 1% tax, for free health care.
Complain about this comment
ricky78732: the gentleman you referred to is probably right, but I expect he is very wealthy! It is quite obvious that many people in the USA who are working, pay their taxes etc. are plunged into economic hardship when they become ill. Surely this is a problem you must address. By the way, this issue was discussed eloquently on this blog some months ago by Americans and Brits, and many interesting points were raised. Our (British) system leaves a lot to be desired, and American health care (when you can afford it) is probably the best in the world, but not much use when 40 percent of your population don't have access to it. Btw, get over yourself regards the 'same ol' agenda-driven blah blah)'. You sound like an embittered ex-pat. Glad you made it, and can afford that great standard of life! Meanwhile on my £16 per annum I think I'll take my chances here and put up with waiting a while for the health care I need!
Complain about this comment
Health insurance here is a racket, as is the prescription drug industry. The prescription drug companies pour millions of dollars into advertising pills to people (like me) that don't need them. What they should do instead is to donate that money to help people who have serious health problems, like Amy.
We're obsessed with health in our country to the point where healthy people are constantly getting "health care" we don't need. I once had a doctor try to prescribe me potassium pills - I just went home, ate a couple bananas and a potato instead, and was just fine.
The system is built to make a lot money off of those who don't need care, and to make even more money off people who need a lot of health care. It's enough to make you sick! (pun intended)
Complain about this comment
As a child growing up in the United States, my dad always told me ?America is the best country in the world?. Sure, like any other country it has its? problems but, it?s still the place where you can start with nothing and prosper. My dad is an honorable person, has been in a union for much of his adult life and works really hard. I recently asked him if he thought what he told me as a child was true after we watched something on television. I don?t remember what it was, but it must have been something thought provoking I assume. He said to me ?it used to be?. It seems like when your middle class in America one you take one step forward and you are shoved 3 backwards. Healthcare is the biggest blow of all to all of our pocket books and the way we perceive this country. The biggest economic sector in America (the middle class) don?t seem to get any representation here, sad. I guess this is the ?free market? working for the people.
Complain about this comment
can I be a BBC moderator? Seems like you need a few, and I need the cash!
Complain about this comment
#6 quality of care is the best in the world in the US thats a benefit oof private care but for most americans whats the use of having the best hospital in the world across the street from you if you cannot afford to go there?
quality isnt really what's in question, its availability.
Complain about this comment
I recall a story told to me by a nurse at a remote treatment center for a well known hospital in the Chicago area.
She told me that its hard to to her job today in view of the healthcare crisis .
as an example ,
She had to turn away a woman who has terminal cancer from the clinic as she had lost her health insurance due to her husband losing his job at a major company located here . Her husband was downsized from a mid -level executive postion and has been unemployed for two years . Now in his late fifties he had exausted his redundancy package paying mortgagae and self payor insurance costs under his COBRA benefits . After eighteen months, the company no longer had to extend the health care coverage even if he paid all the premimums .Because the wife had been diagonosed with Cancer, no independent insurance company would insure her without preexisting condition exclusion
They cannot afford the medications or treatment that would make her final days better . They have exhausetd the goodwill of the clinic for free medications and only when she is in extreme distress will she be administered treatment to stablize her at the local emergency room.
Thier home is in forclosure ,and my nurse friend cannot deal with the desperation of seeing a woman and her husband now with lives destroyed now reduced to begging for care after a long productive life in the suburbs as middle -class americans
Such are the days in America and the 47 million without health care
Complain about this comment
#6
""Because the quality of care is highest in America ", he answered."
Yes, it is also the most expensive in the world too!
I have been having terrible pain in my knee...perhaps a reoccurance from my old skiing injury where i snapped my ACL and LCL. I had an x-ray, saw a specialist who suggested it may be the start of arthritis, but wasn't sure. So, went back a week later had an MIR scan....luckily my knee is ok, not arthritis, just minor muscular pain and tightness.
The cost of the 2 visits and X-rays and MRI and specialist???...in dollars around 80~90. All this too place over 2 weeks too. So all i pay is 30 percent of the 80~90 dollars, or use my insurance to pay for it!
I live in Japan. The system is half way between the UK and US. Everyone pays around 30% of the cost, the Govt pays the rest. This 30% everyone gets insurance, which is based upon your earnings, with a min and a max payable.
If unemployed, unlike the UK, you must pay a min. The cost around 5 dollars a month!
The insurance here, to cover the 30%, is just that! One is not penalised for previous ailments, the premium remains the same even after treatment. Previous history is irrelevant. Also, I can have multiple policies and can claim on the policies at once, if i wish.
My wife's agent was in hospital last year, she had 5 policies running concurrently. She was actually "making money" sat in bed in hospital, from the daily bursaries she received.
Complain about this comment
ooops..my post in 11. Should read "I can't recall exactly."..but those figures are roughly correct for UK.
Complain about this comment
Availability rather than quality of care seems to be the issue. In Europe, Canada, US, India, Cuba or many "developing" nations, the quality is there both in public and in private sector hospitals/clinics.
Surely, the question is universal healthcare.
Here in UK, take it as granted that one is registered wth a doctor. Local councils even reminding incoming EU working here, that they can/should register with a doctor(GP=general practicioner) in their area. Granted, there are strains on the system and the NHS leaves a lot to be desired - some may say the cracks appeared circa Maggie Thather's time / some may not. Some say we should look to the french system - like the NHS but with health insurance aspect too.
Otherwise, how much do your businesses have to add on as they take into account employees health insurance? What of potential contributors to the economy who can't contribute or are off work having no ability to purchase healthcare?
Still, no one has a perfect solution. (It gets harder to finding dentists on/in the NHS.)
Types of medication available on the system.
It depends on what you expect for your tax dollar/pound/euro.
Complain about this comment
sorry I said 40 percent of Americans unable to afford health care, that figure may be too high. Point is though that it seems that many working Americans (re 17), have their lives destroyed once they become ill. This seems , to me at least, awful. The problem of course with a tax payer funded system is that the costs never end.
I am personally dubious about tax-payer funded IVF, as much as I feel for the individuals involved, and as for abortion ... well I can see that in the USA that might be a huge political issue ... Deciding what is basic health care, and what is not ... it is a big problem. One thing I am sure about: if you want a sex change, or to enlarge your breasts ... pay for it yourself.
Complain about this comment
Yeah, right, at last some progress here in glimpsing 'the other America' - not "the richest nation on earth" version for the proles. Get away from the toney DC burbs and their equivalent in the affluent quarters of this highly stratified society and the vast majority at the bottom of the social pyramid eke out a precarious existence, Remarkable that it's only "in the final days" of this dreary campaign that the real issues should suddenly be belatedly discovered. America in fact is the most class divided society in the developed world ourside of the UK. But you'd never know it to listen to the two Duopoly Party candidates. Obama Copacabana is already backing away from any new social programs until after the financial meltdown is properly paid for out of public funds. He's got the same priorities, dressed up in different rhetoric, as McCain - a safety net for rich investors and empty promises for the proles.
Complain about this comment
#2. TheHandOfHistory: "How much does National Insurance cost in Britain? How much is the average American's health insurance premiums?"
National Insurance contributions do not pay for the NHS, it is funded from general taxation. NI pays for the state pension.
#6.ricky78732: This weekend, I hosted a gentleman from Tehran, Iran. . . "Because the quality of care is highest in America ", he answered."
How exactly did he know this? By empirical knowledge or by reputation? And why go to Texas (the implied destination of his care) when there would have been closer states? As 'selfevidenttruths' remarks, he must be very wealthy - there's air fare, doctors' fees, a consultant's fee, hotel accommodation, somewhere for recuperation and more hotel accommodation before being discharged as 100% fit. Doesn't sound typical of anyone who's seeking health care in the US!
The problem is not with the quality of care but its delivery and general availability at a price all can afford.
Complain about this comment
9, cannon.
He is talking about an American NHS, but there is no mention of drug houses.
Complain about this comment
#12 "It is quite obvious that many people in the USA who are working, pay their taxes etc. are plunged into economic hardship when they become ill."
And many don't.
I'm working, paying my taxes etc.
I wasn't "plunged into economic hardship" when I became ill.
I receive excellent health care with no "economic hardship". And no, I'm not "very wealthy".
And as for the 40% figure - numbers are thrown around and pulled out of the air. Next post will say it's 60%.
I think it's reasonable to not fixate on the most negative aspect one can find. Optimistic Voices are the ones you rarely hear. It's time for some balance.
Many of us Americans have seen firsthand what happens in other countries, and it's easy to see why we want none of it.
I'm amazed at how much of the world is fixated on America - yet they seem unable to deal with their own problems ! Full of advice, yet unable to cope.
Complain about this comment
I also have no health coverage - mine stopped in July of 2007. I am a 61-yr old female; I have chronic and quite painful fibromyalgia as well as other related conditions and some old injuries that all combine to make daily-life quite uncomfortable. Prior to losing my coverage, thanks to past efforts of a progressive and feisty Internist, I had forced my state-funding-assisteid HMO to provide me with a coordinated regimen of electro-stim acupuncture plus specialist-provided Shaitsu massage. When I began that regimen I expected little or no effective relief; I was amazed at the flexibility and pain-lessening I received. Since that stopped I tough things out; I have "bad days" at least 3 days/week even with doing exercise, being at my ideal weight with a highly-healthy diet, and practicing yoga and relaxation. I spent my whole working life caring for an advocating for others, including in healthcare delivery. I have dear friends whose situations are infinitely worse than mine. THIS IS A DISGRACE.
Complain about this comment
#22 " highly stratified society"
Let's drop the Marxist "class struggle" self righteousness.
I have a Bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering. I have seen how people in Europe live with my same education. My standard of living is FAR higher here in America.
America is a land of INCREDIBLE opportunity.
IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT HERE, YOU CAN'T MAKE IT ANYWHERE.
Complain about this comment
16, moderate.
"#6 quality of care is the best in the world in the US thats a benefit oof private care but for most americans whats the use of having the best hospital in the world across the street from you if you cannot afford to go there?"
Please prove that the US has the best care in the world. Saying it doesn't make it so.
Complain about this comment
US health care is run under same big business philosophy as the banks, securities market, wall street ...which is "mo' money mo' money mo'money." If you're slightly poor ...then who cares about you or your low-class health.
8/23/07 "Driven by robust investment returns and rising membership in its insurance plans, UP Medical Center reported record revenue and profit for the fiscal year...Revenue for the health care giant reached $6.8 billion for the year....and profit -- called excess margin in the statement -- totaled $618 million...Profits rose $93 million from the same period a year ago due mostly to a 19.5 percent return from UPMC's investment portfolio.... Net investing revenue for the period nearly doubled to $403 million from $206 million for the period ending June 30."
This a non-profit teaching hospital.....many wonder why they didn't just....lower their prices or open a clinic or two.
Of course their 'portfolio' has since tanked.
Nationalize 'em
Complain about this comment
PS about the Iranian who came to the US for surgery: A) good for him he had enuff cash most Americans don't, and B) he probably used ta' would have gone to Iraq which used ta' have the best medical services in the Mideast until the US bombed the H ** L out of them.
Complain about this comment
"In the richest nation on earth she cannot afford to go to a specialist ..."
O God, this again? Justin, we have beaten this "horse," so to speek, to death countless times before on this blog!! Every time you bring this national shame and embarrissment, everyone agrees-actually, come to think of it, the health care issue is the only topic it seems everyone agrees on from all nations who post here-that the US health care system is a shame, disaster, embarrissment, and that it must be fixed immediately!! And along with that everyone it seems has some sad, heart-wrenching story about someon they either know or have heard of, who either went bankrupt trying to pay their medicle bills, lost all their worldly posessions trying to do so, or just flat out couldn't aford to pay for medicle ensurance or the cost of their bills, so they ended up dieing from their sickness. But no, don't let those previously known facts get in the way of your discussion topics, please, lets bring it up again!! Lets point fingers at the US and pour blame and scorn on them for not being able to care for its own citizens in the "richest nation on earth!" Because its not as if every American doesnt know this shamefull reality exists already, and wishes for it to be changed I'm willing to bet, more than foreigners, right?!! No! Lets drag the US through the mud on this again!! Perhaps this time it will yield a different response, consensis, and no gut-wrenching stories. And who knows!! May be, just may be, talking about this one more time will magically give afordable quality health care to every American!! Surely that is why you keep blogging about this issue? After all why else would you do it? A better suggestion Justin, should you choose to take it, is instead of preaching to the quire, why don't you take your message to the McCain campaign? Huh? Who knows! You might just convince a few Republicans that universal health care is not "socialism!" as they like to falsely believe.
O and while we're at it did you know that Palin doesn't believe that climate change is man made? Lets talk about that embarrissment next!
Shall we?
Complain about this comment
hey Ricky (25), I have already qualified my 40 percent remark, am not trying to overstate my case, but it is quite obvious that many ondinary Americans cannot get the healthcare that they need without getting into severe financial difficulty, so you're ok, well great, good luck to you. I guess everyone else is a feckless loser ... shit, if only you could deport them all to europe ...
Complain about this comment
Damn, shame I aint a chemical engineer, hey, have you read any of those posts from people who have worked hard and payed their taxes like you but have still ended up in deep ****, you probably think that the okies brought it on themselves!
Complain about this comment
6. At 00:45am on 23 Oct 2008, ricky78732 wrote:
#3 - "Picked at the scab of a nasty wound", eh ?
Just the same ol' same ol' agenda-driven conformity from the BBC. As always, only one side of the story.
As long as we're quoting anecdotes, here's another perspective - one you won't hear on the BBC.
This weekend, I hosted a gentleman from Tehran, Iran. I asked him what brought him to Texas.
He was having a surgery.
I asked "Why come to America ? Why not Canada ? Europe ?"
"Because the quality of care is highest in America ", he answered.
-----------------------------------------
Tricky Ricky. if that were his thoughts then maybe he was very rich, maybe. certainly if he is paying out of pocket.
get real
Justin thanks for picking a real topic.
It cost someone here $1800 an hour to see a doctor.
Na really it is $150 per 5 minutes.
Keep making Texas look good;)
Complain about this comment
sorry don't know if I said: post 33 ref post 25
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#31
"...everyone agrees-actually, come to think of it, the health care issue is the only topic it seems everyone agrees on from all nations who post here-that the US health care system is a shame, disaster, embarrissment, and that it must be fixed immediately!! .."
If everyone agrees it is bad, why is nothing being done about it?..and why isn't "everyone" voting with their feet, or raising the issue with higher authorities than just comments on blogs?...surely "everyone" has such a loud voice, why aren't you all shouting to get action...if some 50million are without health care, that is a jolly loud voice which would be hard to ignore.
Knowing you have a problem is one thing, how to sort out the problem, is where the difficulty lies. As soon as proposals of a universal health care/tax are introduced....those same voices become dissenting....no, i wont pay for someone else's health etc etc..socilaism...liberals...yah yah yah....
The main problem with the health care in the US is your own view of your fellow "man" (generic term) who needs help, whether s/he can pay for it or not..why should I pay for him/her.
Sort that basic humanitarian act out...and you're sorted!
Complain about this comment
Healthcare--yes. We need it! Period.
But right now, I'm most worried about election fraud--not voter fraud, but the Republicans stealing the election. Really. You must, must, must do an investigative piece on Mike Connell.
This is the guy who has helped Bush-Cheney fix election results through computers since Florida 2000, in Ohio in 2004, also in the stolen re-election of Governor Don Siegelman in Alabama in 2002, also in the stolen re-election of Senator Max Cleland in Georgia in 2002.
Connell et al. use a kind of architecture that?s called Man in the Middle, and it involves shunting election returns data through a separate computer somewhere else. This is something that computer criminals do all the time with banks.
Not many non-US people know about this kind of thing. Help!
Complain about this comment
good night and good health everyone ...
Complain about this comment
#6
I find it easy to believe the gentleman in question gets better health care in the U.S. than in Iran. Sounds as if he can afford it.
But how about a low- or middle-income citizen in this country? I'm one of them and I can tell you this: I'm having a heck of a time paying to stay alive, helping to take care of my grandkids and affording groceries. And I have SOME insurance thanks to my late husband's military career. Good luck to the uninsured.
Complain about this comment
Ricky
you are another of those "i'm doing ok so everything must be ok" truth twisters we se so much of.
Many americans who cannot affort private health insurance are far more in fear of getting sick than they are of terrorists, muslims, global economy problems.
I got a bachelors degree, i'm sure many people who post here do too. I'm doing pretty well for my self and have an excellent standard of living. I pay my (high) taxes and donate to charity often with no complaints. I pay for private health insurance as i believe if i can afford it, then i should and leave the medicare (in australia) for those who need it. I can afford not to abuse the system, if i get sick i'll be ok financially.
I know and work with people who can't afford health care but as there is some level of free care here they will be covered somewhat. In america there is nothing. It is not a socialist thing it's helping people get their basic human right of medical care. If the drug compaines weren't making so much profit than it wouldn't be such an issue.
But they are, so it is. Rick you better hope you never lose your job, then you would see the other side and i guarantee you would look back on your smug comments here and wish you had been a bit more decent.
Complain about this comment
This might make things sound more complicated, but... things are more complicated. There are a huge number of variables that play into the U.S.'s health care problems, and I'm not sure if any of the possible national models will rectify any/all of them:
- Litigation: doctors' and institutions' fees rise because of the omnipresent threat of malpractice allegations.
- Litigation: doctors often order the gamut of tests, just to be safe, which common sense might have suggested were unnecessary. Case in point, a gentleman I know decided to roll off his porch roof this summer, and broke 4 ribs in his back (OK, I'll admit it, it was me.) As a precaution, the hospital had me life-flighted to a teaching hospital an hour away, where, as a precaution, I was given a full body CT scan, and where, as a precaution, I was kept in ICU overnight, and, as a precaution, I was kept 2 extra days. For a grand total of $60K. Insurance covered most of it, but grateful as I was for the TLC most was unnecessary, and ultimately costs passed on to the insurees.
- Technophilia- fascination with novelty is nothing new, but the temptation to buy the multi-million dollar equipment is always there... and once bought, well, we have it, so why not use it, right?
- lack of focus on preventative health care- it's changing, but oh so slowly...
- someone else mentioned publicly traded health companies
- Drug Culture- like the tech temptation, the temptation to prescribe the latest is always there- both for the novelty, and "keeping up with the Jones'", and as a CYA.
So, how to wrap all of this up into some sort of national system?
Complain about this comment
re. 27. ricky78732:
"I have a Bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering. I have seen how people in Europe live with my same education. My standard of living is FAR higher here in America."
Well, good for you. Have you thought about how everything in your life is dependent on you keeping your job? Even your health care? Even for your family? Even in a down economy? I hope you're not with a company affected by the credit markets or the slump in industry. I hope you get along with your boss.
Health care in the US is completely dependent on having a good-paying job. Even people with steady employment don't always have health insurance. I think it would be good for your attitude to be laid off for a while. Not enough to really put you in danger, just long enough for you to worry about your health insurance running out. And your mortgage. And maybe your kids' tuition payments and student loans. Enough to teach you about the dangers that others in our country face on a regular basis.
Let me put this in another perspective. Health insurance for kids in the US is totally dependent on their parents jobs. My wife and I have a total of six degrees between us and we both have good jobs. I have a son graduating from college this year. Within a few months after graduation, my wife and I will no longer be able to carry him on our health insurance policies from our jobs. It's a common practice in health insurance in the US. If he doesn't go on to grad school or get a job with health benefits right away, he will be uninsured. We can pay for private health insurance, but that will be expensive. There are thousands of kids graduating from college this spring. In a bad economy. If things don't improve to the point where they can get jobs with health benefits, there will be thousands of kids booted off their parents policies. Not good-for-nothing shiftless kids from bad families, but middle class college-educated kids. That is going to focus people's attention on health care in a big way. Should something basic like health care really be so dependent on having a high-paying job?
I, too, have seen how people in Europe with my level of education live, and I think they live pretty well. Not ostentatiously well, but comfortably well. They have made other choices about what is important to them. I think they have made the right choices. I wish my countrymen would wake up and see that.
Complain about this comment
26. Grrrlie
Sorry to hear of your hardship, that is worth exactly nothing, thought I feel your pain.
Having insurance that covers next to nothing like Blue Cross Blue Shield, $3000 deduct, 30% co-pay on 'all', end up paying for 'all' lower cost surgery like hernias. Just did while not working, and it hurt BAD. We'll be eating the rest of our savings before long, thank god my wife has decent professional employment.
The horror story I could tell, and the long way back from Chapter 13, all from medical bills. It is not easy, life isn't easy.
Complain about this comment
Another factor in the health care debate... Many in the U.S. for years have decried the Veterans Administration, a Federal agency, for the perceived poor quality of care. They're a favorite target for those who rail against govt. incompetence, so I'm not sure how much of the criticism is merited.
But, that being said, some at least in this country already have firsthand experience with "social medicine," run by the govt. If the treatment is poor, or if they listen to the criticisms enough (if it isn't really poor) then a negative experience there could turn many off of the idea of an expanded govt. role in health care.
But, then, many of the same critics are among the 1st to line up to defend the local VAMC if it is mentioned as a target for possible closure...
Complain about this comment
My # 45: I guess I should finish the question, then.
If "social medicine"- paid for by taxpayers, run by the Federal government- is good enough for our vets (and the DO deserve the best we can give them) then:
Why do we so fear social medicine for the rest of the country?
Complain about this comment
#42
You have a point there...perhaps one of the root causes is the legal system, which lets face it everyone know sucks!
It is not totally unconnected to the current economic crisis.
Some who wants a new car, but uses their new found wealth of the increase of their house as collateral (which is just an illusion, since only when house is sold do they really know if they are in credit or debit). Their neighbour says...hmm..nice car how did you afford it...and on it goes.
So, when someone who is one level "lower than this"...how do they acquire such goods...hmmm..hey i opened the door to your office and guess what, it cut my hand...i couldn't make my kids meal for weeks...it traumatised me, my kids couldn't eat we had to buy fast food..their health went down from the poor quality food..my self esteem went down i lost my job....so, I WANT PAY BACK....so, there it is, greed raises it ugly head again.
The insurance companies decide to increase their premiums to pay for potential legal fees to spot "time wasting blood sucking parasites" from suing them for pathetic 'accidents' which a plaster or a paracetamol would cure.
This trickles down to the hospitals. The poor doctor working 20 hour shifts, mis-writes a drug treatment 10ml instead of 1 or 0.1mls, the patient ends up with a minor ailment or worse, dies.... I WANT PAY BACK...the poor doctor is traumatised, his insurance goes up, the hospitals insurance goes up..the whole system of health care goes up. Just to cover these sudden increase in costs, unrelated to the actual health care.
And as you noted, so many 'checks' are performed, for the "what if" scenarios, just in case, for the blood sucking parasite who only sees dollars signs when a genuine mistake or error has been made. With "no such thing as an accident" mentality...someones gotta pay!!...Oh yeah i'll get 100s of dollars for my "trouble"...and the lawyers see dollars signs for his 'troubles' too.
So, the roots do indeed go deeper
Complain about this comment
To the arrogant self-righteous jerks who are castigating USA citizens who have zero health insurance coverage: wouldn't it be HILARIOUS if you, like me, through no fault of your own became the victim of a violent crime - and then lost your health coverage just when you were starting to get better? HAHAHA - "BLEEP OFF" Watch out - you're begging for something really bad in the way of life challenges to come along and to wipe that smug look off your faces, just for starters.
Courageous people decades ago fought and died for benefits you jerks are happy to see others lose but that you take for granted for yourselves.
Pain is an amazing teacher. Who knows what you all could learn. Meanwhile, I know how ignorant you truly are.
Complain about this comment
#27. ricky78732: "I have a Bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering." Which hardly attracts the salary of most ordinary individuals.
This would seem typical of such graduates: starting salaries for a graduate with a bachelor's degree is more than $52,000. It is even better for someone with a master's degree or doctorate. The average industry salary of $75,000 ranked first in a 2004 study among career choices. Bear in mind that this was four years ago, so it may be assumed that the figures are higher today.
"My standard of living is FAR higher here in America."
I wonder where you have lived in order to make that statement? By most assessments, the United States is not even in the top five. Perhaps you aren't aware that most, if not all, European nations have exactly the same kind of consumer goods that we have in the USA - microwave ovens, dishwashers, washing machines - you name it. Wide screen television sets were widely available in Europe long before they were in America. Name one thing that Americans have that Europeans do not - and that doesn't include the amount of ice in a drink, something that has yet to be duplicated by them.
Complain about this comment
Another thing we do in America when things dont seem to work right.. blame the lawyers
It might help to know that most states have had tort reform and place caps on litigation .
Mr Bush has been a major proponent of tort reform since his days a governor of Texas .
The cost for medical care along with many things her has to do with corporate greed not the lawyers , doctors and health care workers .. I dont know too many doctors or lawyers who live in mansions but I do know a bunch of Insurance company and Pharma CEOs that do
Complain about this comment
One of the factors is that the price of drugs and new equipment is far higher in the US that in other countries. By lobbying Congress and donating heavily to their re-election campaigns there are laws that prevent Americans from importing the identical drugs, sometimes manufactured in the same plant, cost far more. Drug and medical equipment companies say that if Americans don't pay the high prices, then they won't have any money for research and development. So... Americans, many uninsured, must pay higher prices so that people in other countries can pay less. Governments threaten to break patents if they don't get the price breaks they want. Some of our tax dollars go to subsidize drug companies research and development, yet still we pay the highest prices in the world. Is this fair?
Complain about this comment
My employer just raised the amount of "overhead" required for healthcare from 18% per year to 25%, plus I have to pay $50 per month to maintain the same level of care. If ANY politician dared to raise the "overhead" on the masses (i.e. taxes) by this amount then they would probably be shot. The free market is great for ensuring cheap cars, the USA demonstrates that a free market does not ensure affordable healthcare. It just means the market and the monopolies that control it gain maximum profit.
PS. Why does it take so many admin personnel to process insurance claims?
Complain about this comment
America is run by 3 entities:
1) Banks
2) Insurance companies
3) Lawyers
Apparently, it's okay for us to bail out #1 to the tune of 700 billion dollars. But, it would be socialism to help 47 million Americans who are struggling to live. As it turns out, health care comes second to food and basic survival. It?s either or. Health care is a luxury that myself and millions of others have to go without. I love the fact that America is run like a company rather than a country. Yay capitalism!
Complain about this comment
Ricky 78732 ... well so you are a chem. engineer ... well if you live in Houston and work in the engineering industry that means you earn probably somewhere between $80k - $140k, if you are a project engineer just a hair higher, project manager probably $20k higher. The engineering industry is a little higher paid than Plant personnel but we have a higher risk ... ie, no project, no job ... Plant personnel have a little more security so pay is somewhat lower (10-15%).
Sorry but with 25 years in Project Controls and Project Management I do have some idea of the wages in the industry ... so if we use an average of $100K just to make the math simpler ... which would mean your are clearing after Social Security, SS Medicare, and taxes around $80K. The average health insurance cost would be another $300 a month if you are single so that brings you down to $76.3K. With no other outstanding debt (ie, college loans to pay off) that would qualify you for a $250K house which is just a hair ($30K) over the average home price in Houston (as stated on thier web site) and approx. $6000 a year in property tax, and Houston is ranked as one of the cheapest housing markets in the country. Of course if you are an engineer in California, Chicago, or a northeastern state your housing cost would be approx. 50% higher.
But that is not incuding putting any monies into your 401K for retirement, or for paying for your kids college (avg of $10K a year for a state college not including room & board), and if you are smart you will also buy disability insurance since you only get 10 days a year sick leave so if you have a major health issue that puts you in a hospital or at home for more that 10 days you will have no income coming in. Of course you could use your 2 weeks of vacation time so that will take care of you for almost a month. Hope its nothing major that requires more than a month of care. And hope it doesn't require overnights at a hospital, with the average cost of $1000 a day ... most of the time covered at 80% so that is still $200 a day out of pocket after your $500 to $1500 deductible.
Now I will leave it up to the engineers in other countries to compare that to thier incomes and standard of living.
Sorry I forgot that if you have a spouse and child your insurance will probalby be running you $500 month.
But yes in comparison to the average income in the US of $43K a year you are doing well.
Oh and in response to going to Texas for medical care ... Houston is well known for its medical center ... and we have some of the largest cancer centers in the country. I should hope so ... we are in one of the major cancer belts in this country. And for several years we were the heart transplant capital of the US ... don't know if Houston still is, but last I heard we still have the honor of being the breast implant capital of the US. And the majority of the middle east engineering and construction projects are managed out of Houston so I am sure that it is fairly well known by citizens of middle eastern countries.
Regards
Complain about this comment
David_Cunard #49
Good research, everyones standard of living is high if they earn that kind of money.
But you are right, what does he know of standard of living in other countries. Using the human development index (as one example) USA is ranked 12th, they get lower in other indexes for health and education.
In the HDI there are 8 countries from Europe ranked higher than the USA, my own Ireland coming in at no 4. What's also apparent is that there is no other developed country in the world where the standard of living differs so much between those with money and those without.
America is a great country, no doubt, so long as you are white, christian and have money. It has glaring weaknesses for those who even miss out on just one of the three above.
Complain about this comment
"And why go to Texas (the implied destination of his care) when there would have been closer states?"
If you're flying all the way from Iran what difference does it make whether he goes to Texas, Florida or New York ? Maybe he has friends in Texas and an extra hour or so in the air doesn't mean that much on a long haul flight .
Complain about this comment
# 44
A very wealthy person can get the best medical care at some clinics in the USA.
A moderately wealthy person can travel to India and visit some specialized sites.
The American Medical Association was for long a very powerful lobby in the USA- along with pharmaceutical companies and their retailers, a vast and exhorbitant system is imposed on the American people-
The media have convinced the people that public medical care is defective in many ways and "socialism".
The military, the police, the fire departments and the school system are also "socialism".
Complain about this comment
"America is a great country, no doubt, so long as you are white, christian and have money"
What a stupid, lazy cliche. The area I live in has many newly arrived immigrants from China and Mexico who love America and are doing very well here. I have met well-to-do Persian Americans, African Americans, Korean Americans and very wealthy non-Christians too. Why do you people wave your ignorance of America as though it was something to be proud of.
Complain about this comment
"A very wealthy person can get the best medical care at some clinics in the USA.
A moderately wealthy person can travel to India and visit some specialized sites."
Have you ever been to the USA ? Why do you insist on making these bizarre comments when you obviously know nothing about the country or it's people. The US medical system may not be perfect but I am not at all wealthy and the medical care I have had here has been amazing.
Complain about this comment
#55. everyoneiscrazy: "America is a great country, no doubt, so long as you are white, christian and have money. It has glaring weaknesses for those who even miss out on just one of the three above."
I would say that the first two conditions are incorrect. There are many non-Christians who have succeeded financially and a very good number of African-American and other "minority" groups who have done well - the Obama family is a case in point.
Having "money" is of course the key, and it depends to a large extent on what is meant by "money". Some people have a very good lifestyle on far less than those, for example, on the Westside of Los Angeles or the Upper East Side of New York. "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the bain of much of American life, bigger and newer everything. But for those who resist the lure of advertised "specials" with their "deferred payments for three years" life can be very pleasant. Nevertheless, health insurance can take a big chunk out of those receiving more normal salaries, substantially less than, say, 'ricky78732' or 'SamTyler1969', both of whom profess to be above-average income earners. (Where is Sam when you need him?)
With regard to healthcare, the playing field will only be levelled when there is some form of universal care, available to all. I don't think that even Mr Obama's plan fully covers this and it may yet be, if he wins, that his proposal will be 'tweaked' to more resemble that of Mrs Clinton. Unfortunately, "socialised medicine" continues to be the red rag to many of America's bulls, and even if the concept is not fully understood, it is frequently labeled as wrong - too radical and "left-leaning". The fear of "a Commie take-over" still lingers in the American psyche!
Complain about this comment
yes the Quality of care might be the best in the world for the people that can afford it. We all know this fact, but what about the majority??? People in Canada,Europe and Australia that can afford good care while Americans earning the same income can't is the POINT. C,mon smell the coffee beans...
Complain about this comment
Justin - there is not much to say about this. Our costs are high. Our system is lousy. Without restructuring and cutting out the middlemen it won't get better.
How about a topic with greater breadth?
Complain about this comment
#56. vivaelcid: "If you're flying all the way from Iran what difference does it make whether he goes to Texas, Florida or New York ? Maybe he has friends in Texas and an extra hour or so in the air doesn't mean that much on a long haul flight ." And may be he doesn't.
And think that I thought we were rid of your pathetic posts! If the Iranian patient was as ill as suggested, requiring the "highest quality of care", an extra hour could be the difference between life and death. As it is, there's more than "an extra hour or so" involved:- Tehran - London, 6 hours; to Los Angeles and/or San Antonio (Texas), over 15 hours; and to New York, just over 13 hours. In a phrase so dear to the British - "put that in your pipe . . ."
Complain about this comment
# 6 . OK lets go through this one more time just for You.The Man from Tehran would be paying for his treatment .No one is saying that America does not have good Doctors.However Many Americans cannot afford to pay.Also many hard-working ,Middle - Class Americans,like a friend of mine,find themselves ruined even if they are Insured when they suddenly get a serious illness.
I am a Conservative,a Pat Buchanan type Conservative,but because of the Healthcare issue,I would be voting Democrat if I was American .That should speak volumes to you.
Complain about this comment
"And think that I thought we were rid of your pathetic posts! "
Oh, I forgot this was your very own place for "pathetic comments" Just because someone requires "highest quality of care" doesn't mean they are minutes away from death. If they were in a life or death situation then embarking on any long haul flight wouldn't do them much good would it, sunshine? As you admit, the difference in flying time between NY and Texas is at best two hours...not that big a deal if you knew of a specialist in that state. BTW old chap, you're a little out of date with your "witty Britishisms"....does anyone under 60 still say "Put that in your pipe". Try and keep up.
Complain about this comment
David.
Maybe too much of a simplification. But i still stand by it to an extent, Obama is doing will despite not being white, if he Was Barack Smith he'd have a lot less of the problems he has now in his race for the white house. If he was Barack Sanchez or Chan he would have the same or possibly more issues.
I don't think just as some people are doing well it is still not a massive issue for non white and or non christian minorities. Sure some are doing well and there are plenty of white christian types doing it tough. However the poorest people in American as a group are minorities. This is true of many countries.
So in reply to vivaelcid, i've lived in Jersey, i've been there so i have some idea of what i'm talking about. You are no better than Ricky, i know a wealthy black/asian/muslim person so there's no racism or inequality, and you call me ignorant?
As for your amazing healthcare? Do you have private health insurance? we are not doubting the quality of the healthcare just it's availability and affordability to those less fortunate.
Complain about this comment
The trouble with this is that it all becomes anecdotal and the anecdotes obscure the argument.
There's a basic humanitarian principle involved. Should many people help to pay for the benefit of others? I can't see why not. It's not as if most people become ill (seriously or otherwise) by choice, so why should that have the potential to bankrupt one, when another never gets more than a sniffle and piles up their money in the bank?
I've always suspected (we hear similar arguments over here too, especially from the right) that many people who propound the virtues of 'paying your way' through illness have never actually needed the care.
Can't help thinking many people miss out a few letters. 'Cradle-to-grave' universal healthcare isn't 'communism', it's 'communalism'. Isn't it?
Complain about this comment
Healthcare is great in the US, if you're wealthy. If you're middle class or poor, it's not so hot.
My family, which has insurance from a major US corporation, still pay $500 a month for medications alone.
People put off procedures and treatment because of the costs.
Medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy and insolvency in this country.
Premiums get higher and coverage just gets worse.
Some sort of socialized medicine is long overdue. We're lucky though in a way, we have a lot of models to look at, and hopefully we can avoid some of their pitfalls and utilize their successes.
Complain about this comment
Hey guys, look at this report shown on the Australian news last night.
It shows how a Brit has organised for volunteers doctors to go in and help people without insurance in the US, Virginia. Thousands queue overnight to get this service.
It's mind blowing that this is happening in the US. What happened for things to turn out this way?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/10/22/2398086.htm
Complain about this comment
Justin
Thank goodness for the SOCIALIST healthcare policies of the UK! My wife requires a hip relining/replacement operation. She has been seen by a Consultant, received pain management therapy, drugs, X-Rays, MRI Scans and will undergo an operation in January. The choice between not being able to walk and being able to live again and contribute SOCIALLY is a no brainer. And how much have we paid for that, well apart from taxes and LOW prescription charges (with regard to prescription charges you don't pay if you are on a low income or are unemployed) we have paid - NOTHING! Now let me see, which would I prefer - (a) an insurance system which can disqualify me at the drop of a hat and falling into ill health, or, (b) a UNIVERSAL healthcare system....doh....I think answer must be B Justin! I cannot understand why the greatest developed nation on this earth can be so anal on this point. Are they really still scared about the reds under their beds? If this wasn't such a serious issue the American situation would make for a really scary 'B' movie of the 50's. My heart goes out to Amy Clarke and my own relatives in the US who suffer at the whims of insurance companies. I wonder sometimes what is meant by the American Dream, because on this point it is nothing more than the American Nightmare. Come on Americans you know what must be done and you know what you must do on 4/11/08!
Complain about this comment
'communalism'.
I like it. Plus lets not forget the vast majority of the people who need it will be long time tax payers them selves. the unemployment rate is 6.1% in August so most people who avail of universal healthcare will be those who will be paying towards it.
not those shifty work dodging welfare sponges the right seem to think are everywhere sucking up their tax dollars on drugs, hookers and Obama bumper stickers.
Complain about this comment
It's an open secret that the USA suffers from one of the world's least efficient, most expensive healthcare systems in the world.
A study in 2005 showed that US citizens pay more and receive less than citizens in most other Western nations and receive more error-prone treatment (Washington Post article here: http://tinyurl.com/aeqn8).
A study in 2006 showed that on average, Americans are sicker than their English counterparts (Washington Post article here: http://tinyurl.com/elvqe).
A 2008 study revealed that Americans are now paying more than ever before, yet receiving even less for their money (NCHC article here: http://tinyurl.com/nzc2n).
Two highlights from that study:
>>
* According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.
* The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.
>>
I would simply not tolerate such a poor standard of healthcare; it is just not acceptable. What are Americans paying their taxes for? Third-world healthcare, it seems!
I'm so glad I live in the UK, and will be returning home next year to Australia; both countries have an excellent public health service, and the cost is so low that I don't even notice it in my taxes.
Complain about this comment
"So in reply to vivaelcid, i've lived in Jersey, i've been there so i have some idea of what i'm talking about. You are no better than Ricky, i know a wealthy black/asian/muslim person so there's no racism or inequality, and you call me ignorant?"
Yes, you are ignorant. You said that America was only great if someone was white, wealthy or Christian. I proved you wrong..America is great for people of all colors, backgrounds and religions. If you spent any time here you would see that. As for racism and inequality, you find it in every country and that still doesn't stop non-white, non-Christian and not wealthy people from having a great life here. Try not to be so bigoted against a country you obviously have little knowledge of.
Complain about this comment
"Are they really still scared about the reds under their beds?"
Don't believe everything you read. The health issue is not why people are against communism. Americans like their freedom. The health issue is about greedy insurance companies and lawyers who force up the cost of healthcare here. There is no "magic wand" solution to this problem. If, overnight , America offered universal healthcare for all, then the system would collapse under the weight of illegal immigrants getting free healthcare (a situation already occuring in California, Texas and Arizona). At the same time, the present system is failing too many people and the insurance premiums are way too high. Sadly, this is an issue that both Dems & Repubs have not thought out properly but dealing with the insurance companies is one of the first steps.
Complain about this comment
#70. Francois17: "And how much have we paid for that, well apart from taxes and LOW prescription charges (with regard to prescription charges you don't pay if you are on a low income or are unemployed) we have paid - NOTHING!"
That's not strictly true. You pay nothing for these services provided in the UK by the National Health Service, but since you are not given a bill doesn't mean you don't pay! The NHS is funded through general taxation so, assuming that you have paid income tax (and anything else into the Exchequer), you are paying one way or the other: the charge is hidden.
Having hip replacement surgery in three months time doesn't appear to be very swift to me, but then, my late mother (in the UK) suffered a fall at the age of 91 and had the replacement within days. Had I given my consent immediately, it would have been yet sooner. But it was an emergency so that of course was a factor. If one can accept the waiting times, fine, but in this day of instant gratification, I fear that American patients might not take kindly to waiting so long, even if it was "free".
Complain about this comment
possummergatroid---what's happening in the US to cause this healthcare disaster? The same thing that's causing the global financial meltdown---8 years of the most incompetent US president ever elected and 30 years of business deregulation throughout all industries.
I do think things may change for the better if Obama is elected. People are tired of the status quo here---everyone is moving toward the same idea that healthcare has to change and McCain's plan isn't playing well.
I met a friend at a restaurant for breakfast yesterday morning in a wealthy, traditionally conservative Minneapolis suburb. We sat next to a group of retired businessmen, 8 men or so. I was surprised at the tidbits of their conversation I heard. They were angry, angry at the Republicans, angry about prescription costs, angry about healthcare costs, wanting a change, wanting government involvement, willing to vote for a black man to make it happen.
You don't piss off the oldies here, they vote and follow through on it.
Then of course, the 8 men got up and went to their Mercedes, BMW's, and of course Buicks.
Complain about this comment
vivaelcid---I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I think you need to look at where you live.
Which I'm guessing by the populations you described living around you is either LA or the Bay Area?
Things work a lot differently in San Fran or Cali than they do in most of the rest of the country.
I know people, real nice people, Democrats even, who won't vote for Obama because they think he's black and muslim. Silly I know, but that's some of what happens once you move away from the urban centers.
Complain about this comment
(long time reader, first time poster. be gentle)
ricky78732:
i don't know what kind of situation you're in exactly, but let it be known that not everyone can be as lucky as yourself, regardless of their input. i had graduated with a double major in international business and marketing. i had, unfortunately, accrued quite a bit of debt (due to changes in state laws in ohio that i'll not expound upon).
there was very little work to be found. i found a warehouse job that promised to move me up when they could and they started me at just over 30k a year. i couldn't even afford a place to live and was forced to live with my parents. my coverage was quite good; however, once i got injured on the job (quite badly, purely by accident), my insurance company did EVERYTHING in their power to not help pay for it, even going so far as to look at video tapes and do a formal investigation. had they found reason to not pay for the medical charges i would have easily dove into the red (i barely had $3000 saved at the time, imagine if i were living on my own).
i've since left the company, but before i left we received newsletters that the insurance coverage was going to be less and our premiums would be higher. furthermore, there were less hospitals where we could be seen at and still be covered. i'll not even discuss my poor grandparents' situation to save any kind of embarrasment for their sake.
i've since moved to japan. my job pays only slightly better, but my coverage is AMAZING. i broke my arm a couple months back (riding a bicycle, of which happens all too often here) and i had several months of visits to the hospital as well as rehabilitation. the grand total of what i paid was around the figure of $200-$300. there was no investigation, there was no fight of what kind of claim it was, no phone calls of verifying and re-verifying; i gave the card, paid a small fee (by small i mean 500yen [$5usd]), got my treatment, and left.
there needs to be some sort of intervention in the united states in regards to insurance; if for no one else let it be for the elderly. i can't stand being half way around the world knowing full well that my grandparents, who worked their whole lives for retirement, have to balance spending money on food with medication.
but, ricky, i'm glad that some of us are getting along ok, am i right? it certainly gives you a reason to stand on a soap box, seeing as how you're healthy enough to stand.
Complain about this comment
#65. vivaelcid "BTW old chap, you're a little out of date with your "witty Britishisms"....does anyone under 60 still say "Put that in your pipe". Try and keep up."
How would you know? You say you're American but you use the phrase "old chap" - not something that has been used in many-a-day. But school kids still say "put that in your pipe", so I suggest you do.
#73 (in reply to 'everyoneiscrazy') "I proved you wrong." No you didn't, you wrote "The area I live in has many newly arrived immigrants from China and Mexico who love America and are doing very well here." That's anecdotal at best and at worst, vivid imagination.
Complain about this comment
To#67Britishish
Your words are eloquent and reasoned, as usual.
We can all tell of incidents here in the US about how our health insurance coverage has failed us and the personal costs to so many of us.
Every human being has a right to health care and to get adequate medical treatment. People should never have to choose between paying for health care or doing without food or heat in the winter or other basic needs.
I say enough!
It is time, that we in this good country USA,
actually addressed this problem in a reasoned and intelligent way.
Complain about this comment
In the UK, criticising our NHS is a kind of national sport, and but seeing Justin Webb's video above pulls us up short.
One of the strengths of the NHS is that it gives free and regular treatment for chronic as well as acute illnesses or accidents.
If providing proper free treatment for Amy is "socialism" then - to my surprise, I find I am a socialist.
Or it could be that caring for the health and wellbeing of your citizens is quite simply the mark of a modern civilised society.
Complain about this comment
"You say you're American "
Did I ? When was that ?
but you use the phrase "old chap" - not something that has been used in many-a-day"
Just trying to make an old codger feel at ease.
"That's anecdotal at best and at worst, vivid imagination."
So , you're saying that no Asians, Afro-Americans,
Latinos or non-Christians are middle class in America ? No Chinese or Mexicans are leading a good life here ? You anti-Americans are a joke.
Complain about this comment
#38 smileytm303
But right now, I'm most worried about election fraud--not voter fraud, but the Republicans stealing the election. Really. You must, must, must do an investigative piece on Mike Connell.
Quite! This is another example of how the Republicans will stop at nothing to win. They personify the phrase "The end justifies the means". There is little integrity in their upper ranks and we have seen this often over the past 8 years plus.
They care little about the principles of Democracy, even as this government exports it all over the world. It's an illusion to think that we have a fair and open democratic process in the USA.
The measure of a person's enlightenment is whether they can see and feel the situation from the "other's" perspective. If Democrats rigged the voting machines to benefit their party all hell would break loose. Why aren't senior democratic leaders making this THE election issue. After the fact will be too late. (See 2000, 2004)
Complain about this comment
Does the lack of universal healthcare show that Americans don't give a damn about their fellow Americans? Americans say they care, but I was told to judge people by their actions not their words!
What's America's problem with ordinary hard working Americans?
Complain about this comment
You can't be bigoted against a country!
"America is great for people of all colors, backgrounds and religions" but not for ALL people of colours, backgrounds and religions and you can spin all you like but you are lying to your self, of the 400 richest on the rich list (forbes) i got as far as 20 and they were all white, i could probably go on but i won't waste too much of my time on you. there are a lot of minorities doing well yes but there is still a massive disconnect.
Complain about this comment
"The same thing that's causing the global financial meltdown---"
Oh, you mean the unregulated subprime mess created by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Dems messing with the mortgage business ? A mess that Bush warned the Dem congress about but they ignored him. Considering what the Dems have done to the economy, I don't have much faith that their health care plan is going to work. Something needs to change but the thought of Reid, Pelosi, Frank, Dodd and the Chicago Machine running a US healthcare system is frightening.
"I know people, real nice people, Democrats even, who won't vote for Obama because they think he's black and muslim."
I know some nice people who won't vote for Palin because she's Christian and I know nice white liberals who are voting for Obama because he IS black. I also know some nice black people who don't like his policies but are only voting for Obama because of his skin color.
Different strokes for different folks.
Complain about this comment
Everyone has a right to be an idiot, but the personal jibes of "vivelcid" lower the tone of the thread and appear to be a modus operandi of that individual.
________________________________-
Certain well-respected clinics in the USA include the Mayo in Rochester (and now also elsewhere) and the Leahy in Boston.
For some sorts of cancer and heart problems, Houston is a also a focus.
___________________________-
Universal medical care is indeed a most important for the USA.
A second issue, that has beeen totally neglected, is the "unitary presidency". Cheney has four Supreme Court justices who favor this- and it represents a thorough usurpation of the American Constitution.
A philosophical point, for which Americans are not ready, has been alluded to above.
What does it mean to be part of a collectivity, such as a nation? What is one's duty to his fellow citizens?
Complain about this comment
"If Democrats rigged the voting machines to benefit their party all hell would break loose."
Oh, you mean like ACORN forging thousands of fake voter registrations in order to benefit the Democrats. Even the liberal MSM are starting to take notice of the massive voter fraud being committed by ACORN. If anyone steals this year's election it will Obama and the Chicago Machine.
Complain about this comment
# 83
I think many share your concern about the lack of ethics among the Republicans.
The situation is even made even more bizarre by the support of those Christian evangelicals who would be outraged if they understood the depravity of the regime.
Complain about this comment
.....allmy, I agree....... new broader topic post would be appreciated...... but just making a little twist out of this one, you might be interested to look at this......
...... yes, definitely *uninsured* and here is another incidence of plumb *actionable intelligence* in action. Excellent in the battle of hearty and minds if employed properly.....
'http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7685593.stm
Bill
Complain about this comment
No.69 possumMurgatroyd
Thanks for that link, amazing.
Who has the solution to resolve this disgrace? I understand it is extremely complicated, Hilliary Clinton came up with a plan that was in paper the size of a large suitcase. For example regarding the Pharmaceutical companies that make huge profits, okay they re-invest monies back into research which is vitally important, however can they not set aside a small percentage to fund people with no cover.
Honestly my heart goes out to genuinely good people that cannot raise their income and are living in daily fear of becoming sick.
Complain about this comment
elcid
"system would collapse under the weight of illegal immigrants getting free healthcare"
We get to the real reasons. if you think illegal immigrants are going to show up to a hospital expecting free health care where, at the very least, they will have to produce a card with their details on it in droves you are even more out there than i first thought.
and i'm a bigot old chap?
Complain about this comment
"Does the lack of universal healthcare show that Americans don't give a damn about their fellow Americans? "
Americans give more to charity then any other country in the world. Americans care about fellow Americans. The lack of universal healthcare shows that it is hard to introduce a workable system into a huge country of over 300 million people and with porous borders. It isn't something you can snap your fingers at to make it better.
Complain about this comment
Well i´m a Brit living in Germany.
The system here is a little differnt to the NHS.
You get pretty quick treatment here(my mother in the UK had to wait 4 weeks for chemotherapy hier in germany 1-2 days!)
But its more expensive too!
The contribution is on the 1 janurary 15,5% from your wages(not like NI)-Employees pay 8,2%,employers pay 7,3%.
The rest comes from taxes.
main problem here is thorugh privat patients get better and faster treatment(if yyou earn mot than 7400 Euros per month or are self employed OR if you are a "Beamte"(Gov. employee with special privledges) can get private insurance.
Most annoying though is the ordinary insured have to pay the costs of maintaining hospitals,setting up GP pratices etc where the private patient gets quicker and better treatment than others.
Still alot better than the NHS and 1000 times better than the Americian system
Still be intresting too see how Florida votes.
I bet the Healthcare issue will help the Dems in Florida!
@#22
Well Europeans have a good standard of living too...
and a least if you are a pensioner/unemployed or really sick you will get treatment without ruining you!
I think 100$ less in my pocket is worth it if I know when i´m really sick i get treated!
Complain about this comment
Universal healthcare should be one of the basic rights of a caring society. I find it strange that a country (USA) can declare a state of emergency over natural disasters like Katrina and pour millions into relief for rebuilding; can treat house repossessions as a national emergency, yet regards sickness and injury amongst its' citizens as some sort of consumer choice.
There is something inherently wrong with a society that values property above the lives and health of its fellow citizens.
Why is a natural, geographically isolated disaster any different than natural health problems that occurs nationwide?
I've had experience of both sides of the NHS in the UK. It recently killed my mother with an unnecessary and bungled hip replacement followed by 3 years of diabolically incompetent treatment. On the other hand, my brother is a quadraplegic and has received every assistance, including equipment and a full time carer for over 20 years.
However, in both cases neither would have been able to afford this level of health care if it wasn't for the NHS.
Complain about this comment
"they will have to produce a card with their details on it in droves you are even more out there than i first thought."
You don't even have to produce a card to vote , what makes you think healthcare will be any different ? 70% of all babies born in public hospitals in some areas of Texas are by illegal immigrant mothers. Try doing some research.
"and i'm a bigot old chap?"
If you say so. At least you admit it. Take your hatred for America somewhere else, old chap.
Complain about this comment
Wow - that's a lot of comment for this - well done Justin Webb for igniting concern worldwide. I am a natural healer plying my calling around Europe, mainly Portugal. I have experienced success when treating patients suffering Crohns Disease. This success lays between relief of symptoms to dissipation of the illness. If I can help in any way I will - all illness is debilitating and rotten for the sufferer. To me - be it cold or cancer - we deserve to live a better life. The political reasoning behind 'successful' countries is beyond my understanding, it is a situation I regard as just being there, similar to an illness symtom but untreatable in the short term. This blog was the spur to joining - I'm glad I did. Robert Smith
Complain about this comment
# 93 El Cid
That's defeatist ! (old boy). How very unAmerican of you.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Welcome Robert smith.
Another enlightened voice, we need all we can get.
Complain about this comment
Hand asks: "How much does National Insurance cost in Britain? How much is the average American's health insurance premiums?"
The Financial Times (http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/2008/05/column-how-to-cure-america%E2%80%99s-health-system/) suggests that the average family pay $12000 for their insurance in the USA. In the UK, the figure can be worked out in the manner outlined on the following Guardian webpage: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/dec/09/thinktanks.health Taking into account recent rises in NHS spending and the exchange rate, I make the NHS cost about $7000 per year in tax for an average UK family.
So, $7000 in the UK vs $12000 in the USA, for an 'average' family: the USA pay less tax and thus avoid 'socialism', but then citizens end up paying more out of their after-tax income and so end up worse-off under the non-'socialist' system.
Complain about this comment
#31 norashdecisions
Yup, good idea. Lets just pretend it doesn't happen and then you can go about your daily business and ignore the awful situation going on about you.
Brushing important issues under the carpet seem to be preferable to you than addressing the issues often enough so something actually gets done about it!!!
Complain about this comment
Complain all you wan't elcid, I know you read it.
Complain about this comment
#101 That was a theoretical argument for raising additional funds. It never happened.
For actual values of cost of health care in the UK, rough values, see my post # 11.
Approx 1% of your earnings pays for the health care.
Complain about this comment
Just a small point, but Bill Clinton was talking about healthcare a few weeks ago and he made this point. In western europe, most governments spend approximately 11% of their national spending on healthcare, to provide a system that covers all citizens fairly and equally. In the US however the government spends approx 16%, yet the system still requires private healthcare insurance, and leaves millions without cover.
Don't get me wrong the NHS isn't perfect, probably far from it, but at least i know that if i'm not feeling that great, or have an accident, i can go see my GP, or head to Accident & Emergency without having to worry what's in my pocket.
However, if the american government are spending roughly 50% more money in equivalent terms, why can they not provide free healthcare as we do in the UK?
Probably because both the drug and insurance companies would lobby the white house aggressively due to major loss in earnings, as it seems they are the people with the real power in the land of the free, and they don't really care about the man on the street.
Complain about this comment
Justin - great topic today. Seems to have really got everyone's juices flowing.
#2. TheHandOfHistory wrote:
"How much does National Insurance cost in Britain? How much is the average American's health insurance premiums? "
The point is that tax is based on income - everyone gets the same care regardless of their salary .... and even if they are out-of-work.
In a civilised society the right to adequate healthcare (like the right to education) should be irrefutable.
The European systems are not perfect but they are all-inclusive.
In my view the problem with the US system is the costs involved at all levels - drug companies are not adequated regulated for price, lawsuits increase doctors insurance premiums, and everyone seems to need a private room with all the facilities of a 5 star hotel.
Why? In Europe we still use wards of beds - and if you're wealthy you can choose to go private.
In Italy the system has many flaws, but many advantages too. If you've all got time for a brief anecdote, here's some food for thought.
In the last 3 years we have had 2 baby boys in Rome. Total cost for the births - ZERO. We chose a local clinic we could walk to. The standard ward was 3 beds (yes, with curtains). We were given a bed immediately we arrived following the waters breaking .... and it is stndard to be kept in for 3 nights (hospital decision) even though there were no medical problems.
We took the option of upgrading to a privte room, with ensuite bathroom, and spare bed for me to stay with my wife and child - cost per night 140 euros including 3 meals each. You can't get a hotel room in downtown Rome for that price.
No system is perfect ..... but the right to health care trumps all.
Peace and health
Complain about this comment
#7 I am curious about your comment on Crohn's disease treatment. My sister got sick with Crohn's disease at a very young age, and has been struggling with it for 10 years, including heavy medication. If there is indeed alternative options I will be happy to know more about them.
sorry everyone, doesn't really have anything to do with Justin's issue of the day.
Complain about this comment
More from the "you couldn't make it up" file.
Yesterday Sarah Palin was telling delighted Republican donors that Obama is "hiding his real agenda of redistributing your hard-earned money"
There she was - standing in front of them displaying just some of the $150,000 she spent from donated funds on clothes, shoes, make-up and hair extensions in September alone.
This is an poignant and deeply personal example of the generous redistribution of hard-earned money.
Complain about this comment
Thanks Justin,
"... and yet in the richest nation on earth she cannot afford to go to a specialist ..."
Health care in the United States is all about the plight of the uninsured and the insured (who must deal with abuse from insurance companies) against a backdrop of record-breaking profits in the pharmaceutical industry.
How many lives have been broken by medical bills, even those who were fully insured, never mind the financial and medical disarray. The deaths of loved ones caught in the profit-driven, red-tape filled bureaucracy of HMOs stand stark against the corporate drive for profits.
Detainees in Guantanamo have access to free health care. What does this say? that Americans should turn to travel to Cuba in order to get the medical help they need?
National Health came about in the U.K. because of ideas of what it means to live in a democracy. OK, the NHS is not always perfect, but in America there is no doubt that the problems are serious and need to be addressed.
The answers are clear.
Now contrast this with the talk about - parts of the nation pro-American - and - who speaks of reform (in taxation or health care, for instance) is a socialist, or should that be communist.
Complain about this comment
#6 & your point is?
Complain about this comment
If the US rises above the pathetic excuses of Viva El John and starts seriously thinking about implementing universal healthcare may I recommend the the French system? In France the taxpayer effectively commissions private companies to provide the healthcare. Existing private healthcare providers can carry on their business (I know where the health insurers can go!) as before with the exception of treating more patients (more money for them).
I don't think the US is compatible for a UK style NHS where the providers of healthcare are also State owned. I don't know the state of Primary Care (eg family doctors, general practitioners) in the US - if it's dire then maybe they could be owned and run by the State
Complain about this comment
#104, respectfully, I'm referring to the calc in the article, not its general thrust:
"A reasonable estimate of the cost in 2001 would be £62 billion. The current UK population is exactly 60 million which produces an average cost of £1,033. Mr Brown mentions a 'British family' and so if we multiply £1,033 by the average household size of 2.4 we arrive at a figure of £2,480. This means that the NHS is currently costing the average household about £207 per month."
Now, the NHS currently costs c.£100,000,000,000 to run, and however you take it out of the paypacket (before it leaves the employer in employer-contribs, or in tax before you can spend it), this has to paid for out of tax. So, allowing for this and the exchange rate, the rough national cost of full NHS cover is c.$6000-7000 per "average" family, which compares very favourably with the US per-"average"-family cost of c.$12000. Or am I misunderstanding? (it has been known!) :)
Complain about this comment
In the UK, the guiding body behind the availability of drugs in the National Health Service is an organisation called NICE - The National Institute for Clinical Excellence.
This is a discreet body which, aware of its great responsibilities, does not normally make waves.
However its CEO recently came out and pointed a finger at the drugs companies - effectively saying that some drugs could simply not be supplied to patients in need because they are too costly.
If the US finds the courage to tackle the healthcare issue head on, it will have to start with the 'big pharma' companies as well as the medical insurers.
Complain about this comment
"30 ColettePioline wrote:
Can we administer cognitive tests to ensure that we're not electing people suffering from senile dementia? Anyone who remembers Reagan's second term knows that this is a legitimate issue."
Great idea.
On a lighter note, do any of the Brits out there remember the Spitting Image skit "The President's Brain is missing" ..... are we in for a re-run.
Peace and ... um .... errr. .... um .... Peace
Complain about this comment
Anyone got a link to stats about which country has the best healthcare/doctors/specialists etc?
ie: ignoring the costs, just the "best healthcare in the world".
Complain about this comment
#25 ricky78732
I think it's reasonable to not fixate on the most negative aspect one can find. Optimistic Voices are the ones you rarely hear. It's time for some balance.
Unfortunately, reading your posts you didn't follow your own advise.
It seems your living your life in a bubble, whilst millions other less fortunate struggle to feed, provide health care or a home for themselves and their families.
Your living the Dream,
American selfishness beyond comprehension.
Complain about this comment
Post #111; dceilar wrote: "If the US rises above the pathetic excuses of Viva El John and starts seriously thinking about implementing universal healthcare may I recommend the the French system? In France the taxpayer effectively commissions private companies to provide the healthcare. Existing private healthcare providers can carry on their business (I know where the health insurers can go!) as before with the exception of treating more patients (more money for them)".
This is virtually identical to the sytem in my own country (Australia). It works extremely well.
When Americans hear about universal healthcare, they usually assume that people are talking about the Canadian model. They seem curiously ignorant of the fact that there are many other alternatives.
If the UK can do it; if Japan can do it; if the Scandinavians can do it; if Canada can do it; if even Australia can do it... why can't the USA?
The answer is simple: the USA CAN do it. She simply refuses to. And every election year, American citizens are bamboozled into voting against their own interests by the slick propaganda bankrolled by Big Pharma.
Complain about this comment
Yet again here we go! The country of the wild discrepancies.
You know why its a pity this country exists at all?
Because if it didnt some brilliant author would have come up with a novel based in this fantastical (note I am not saying fantastic please) country and it would have been a beautiful book. Primarily because we would have a glimpse at how low the individualist society can stoop while being fully in the knowledge that the whole thing was fiction.
Complain about this comment
115
WHO Top 10
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Complain about this comment
To squideyes (115)
Dont have stats but without a shadow of a doubt its the Scandinavian countries. Probably led by Norway.
Complain about this comment
To ricky 73872 (post 6)
What a lousy point to make mate. If you can call it a point at all.
If you have a system which is 100% privatised and charges huge fees for anything of course they can give good service. Problem you didnt mentoin is that they give it to the few who can pay, like your rich Iranian mate.
Apart from that, answer this please... How is it that so many Saudi sheiks come to Belgium for health care? Seems that even your non-point is wrong.
Complain about this comment
vivaelcid ... I see no anti-Americanism here, just people debating an important issue ... chill out!
Complain about this comment
viva: maybe you need some medication ... : )
Complain about this comment
#119
Thanks for that, US healthcare ranks 37th on that list...
Complain about this comment
regarding Palin's excessive clothing budget,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7685067.stm
I espically like her campain spokesperson's justification at the end. Nothing to report here...
Complain about this comment
Many Americans seem to have a peculiar idea of the term 'socialism' which seems to stem from that disgraceful period in the history of the US when McCarthyism took hold.
When Margaret Thatcher was in power in the UK she tried to wipe out all traces of socialism but an area where she was unsuccessful was the socialist health service, the British public would not allow her to do it.
The vast majority of the people in the UK agree that when it comes to health, the Christian ethos of love thy neighbour as thyself is never more meaningful (I'm not religious by the way) and that to spread the cost of healthcare between us all makes absolute sense.
It is baffling to many of us how the American insurance companies have managed to indoctrinate Americans into thinking that an insurance based system is the best. Americans can see its failures yet some still seem to believe in proposals such as John McCain's.
Why are they afraid to kick out the the insurance companies and instead contribute to a national system where they can all benefit?
Complain about this comment
As a Brit resident in America, the apparent quality of healthcare can be excellent. But, the devil is in the detail. The reality is American healthcare is wasteful of both lives and money. A highly regarded study found that up to 98,000 people die in US hospitals every year through poor quality of care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Err_is_Human).
I can talk to excess cost from my own personal experience. I had a minor knee surgery a few years ago and left the hospital with a brand new pair of shrink-wrapped crutches (made in China). I took 3 steps with them, decided I could walk better without, and those crutches will be in my basement forever because there is no concept of recycling them back into the healthcare system. The NHS has it's faults, but such a pointless waste of money would never occur in the UK.
There are too many people in the US without even basic medical care. But, for the lucky ones with insurance, there is also too much healthcare that focuses on appearance, not on the quality that really matters - simple, cost effective healthcare.
Complain about this comment
To add to the top ten WHO ranking, the USA ranks at number 37.
Complain about this comment
David_Cunard:
It says on Wikipedia that the NHS is funded through general taxation and National Insurance contributions. So there. :P
Complain about this comment
In my opinion, the best two measures to determine the effectiveness of a healthcare system are longevity and infant mortality rates.
Country Life expectancy
Spain 81
Australia 80
Italy 79
France 79
UK 77.9
Germany 77.7
USA 77.4
Mozambique has the lowest: 40
Lowest Infant mortality rates
Iceland
Singapore
Japan
Sweden
Norway
Finland
Czech Republic
Switzerland
USA ranks Nr. 163 in the world
Does it really matter that we have some wonderful specialists and excellent hospitals when the care they provide is not available to over 90% of our population? In addition to the uninsured, most Americans have HMOs that limit access to a finite number of healthcare facilities and doctors. The result is that if you don't have a top of the line insurance or a lot of money, you receive average healthcare that is no different from what is available in most developing nations.
The reasons we reject alternative systems is because of indoctrination and ignorance. We are convinced that our system is the best and that everyone else's is substandard and evil. Most Americans have a very superficial knowledge of what is available overseas, don't know that private healthcare is available in most countries where socialized medical services are provided, and because our exposure to what happens in the rest of the world is skewed by the emphasis that our government and the media place on what life is like in the most impoverished nations.
Complain about this comment
Even in America, essential services such as the police and fire brigade are socialised, so why not socialise the health care system too? The right to free health care should be a fundemental right for every citizen.
Complain about this comment
Ref 126
"The vast majority of the people in the UK agree that when it comes to health, the Christian ethos of love thy neighbour as thyself is never more meaningful (I'm not religious by the way) and that to spread the cost of healthcare between us all makes absolute sense."
The mindset you alude to is evident in more than just healthcare. An example is the demonization of Barack Obama for suggesting that the top 5% of our population should be willing to spread the wealth to help the less fortunate. The "audacity" of his suggestion is highlighted as the ultimate example of evil socialism and an instrument designed to destroy the American middle class! The irony is that the most enraged are those who need help the most.
Complain about this comment
What a travesty! There is inequality in the US Healthcare system... We must act now!
Create a new tax, that'll solve everything.
Wait... There is inequality in the world healthcare system? We should act now!
Wait, I've seen little kids in Africa and the Philippines blinded for lack of routine health care... We should act now.
Malaria kills too many kids in the tropics. Smallpox is making a comeback worldwide. AIDS (a behavioural disease) is rampant in Africa.
News Alert...
The state of Hawaii cancelled Universal Child Healthcare this month...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081017/ap_on_re_us/child_health_hawaii
Why? Because parents that had healthcare were cancelling their policies to save money and enroll in the free care provided by their taxes. Puhleeze!
I'm going to start a web charity where all the do-gooders who don't believe in God, but swear by something called "basic human decency" can donate to buy health care for the uninsured.
Come on you blokes, why does it matter that you're in the UK? It's "basic human decency".
No, we won't act now... we'll just blog about it.
Complain about this comment
Boiiiinnnng!
http://chart.bigcharts.com/custom/wsj-com/charts/commodities/chart.asp?time=5y&freq=1dy&style=2101&size=3&sid=12129&symb=DJWorld&comp=aaaaa~0&type=256&startdate=&enddate=&mocktick=1&uf=undefined
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Dominick (130),
This list of Life expectancy (from the UN) shows USA at 38th (just below Cuba)
Peace and long life
ed
Complain about this comment
vivaelcid:
"Americans give more to charity than any other country in the world"
What's your evidence for this claim?
In terms of aid, the US is 22nd out of the 22 most developed nations, when the amount of aid given is taken as a precentage of GDP, according to the OECD. In addition the US is also the worst offender when it comes to 'tied aid'. That is, aid that can only be spent on services and products from the donar country. In this respect USA ties 90% of its aid. By comparison the UK 'ties' less than 10% of its aid.
In terms of money given to charity, US citizens do appear to give more to charity that most other developed nations, as a percentage of GDP. However, Americans pay far less in tax than say, Europeans, so the GDP figure is misleading to say the least.
If you use the fairer calculation of gross national income (which combines that given by individuals with that given by governments) the US fairs far less well. In those terms Europeans are far more generous. On that index the US is second from bottom (only Italy is lower) and Norway is top.
An article in The Economist (Feb 2007), regarding the amount of money given to charity by individual Americans stated:
"the extra percentage point of its GDP that individuals deposit in rattling tins hardly reflects the much lighter taxes they pay"
All in all it appears that your claim, that America is the most generous country, is not only baseless, it also completely untrue. On practically every index the US is bottom or very near to. As Jimmy Carter said:
"We (USA) are the stingiest nation of all"
The following link deals with this subject in much greater detail:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html#USA
Complain about this comment
What a sad state of affairs. Why is USA so afraid of single payer everyone insured health care?
I live in Canada and have seen the issue from the other side. I have leukemia plus sever heart damage. When I was diagnosed with CML a new drug was just comming out of final state testng. It was so effective that the trials were ended and it was licensed. The only problem was the cost $3500/month. Fortunately I had a drug plan thru my employer which covered 90% of the cost and I found out there was a provincial govt program that paid at least part of the deductible so in the end I paid only about$5000 out of my taxed dollars. at age 65 the provincial govt whjere I live pays for most drugs except a very small co-pay of $3.31 a prescription. BTW during the 10 years or so I've lived with CML I've had 2 pacemakers and numerous tests plus about 20 days of hospital care.
Now someone tell me that universal coverage with universal payment is not a good deal.
Complain about this comment
Just blame Dr.House....such wonderful care...doesn't everyone receive this excellent attention and service?
If it is not true....why have a TV series based upon pure fiction and not real medical facts ;)
Complain about this comment
Actually, the finest health care by far is in North Korea -- if you happen to be Kim Jong-il, anyways.
I bet Zimbabwe runs a close second - under the right circumstances.
I am an American who lives in Singapore, and was home over the summer. The one fear I constantly had was I would get sick while I was there...
Complain about this comment
#132 DominickVila
The irony is that the most enraged are those who need help the most.
Hear hear!
Complain about this comment
What a sad state of affairs. Why is USA so afraid of single payer everyone insured health care?
I live in Canada and have seen the issue from the other side. I have leukemia plus sever heart problems. I'm a tribute to modern medicine!
When I was diagnosed with CML a new drug was just coming out of final state testing. It was so effective that the trials were ended and it was licensed. The only problem was the cost $3500/month. Fortunately I had a drug plan through my employer which covered 90% of the cost and I found out there was a provincial govt program that paid at least part of the deductible so in the end I paid only about$5000 out of my taxed dollars. The story gets better I also has a loss of income coverage that paid 2/3 of my salary to age 65.
At age 65 the state govt where I live pays for most drugs except for a very small co-pay of $3.31 a prescription. BTW during the 10 years or so I've lived with CML I've had 2 pacemakers and numerous tests plus about 20 days of hospital care. To say that I'm grateful is an understatement. Paying taxes to support health care is a privilege!
Now can someone tell me that universal health care coverage with universal payment is not a good deal?
The irony to me is the apparent objections to universal health care yet in other crises, where large numbers of people are affected, the first people asked for funds to cover the costs, is the federal government. It is also ironic that while the Washington pleads poverty it can afford large sums for the "war on drugs" an utterly non-productive endeavor.
Perhaps the upcoming election will elect people who are not concerned about saluting the flag, flag lapel pins, professed patriotism, associations with people from 40 years back, the color of someone's skin, "experience" which is irrelevant to the developing situation and the flavour of someones' religion. Perhaps the "new" people will be interested in the whole of America and not just the issues around their local pork barrel.
America, with its freedoms and bill of rights used to be a respected nation, a place that accepted immigrants gladly and everyone want to go there. Now it is a country where the motto seems to be is "whats in it for me?"
I wish you success in getting back on the right track!
Complain about this comment
The trouble with Big Brother government making decisions on healthcare is that first someone has to define the term;
"Healthcare".
Hilary's Universal Healthcare plan would fund abortions, mental health, boob-jobs, sex change operations, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Not my idea of where I want my tax dollars going.
Hmmm. How about assisted suicide. Didn't some British lad just go to Switzerland to kill himself...
How horrendous that an Englishman had to travel aboad to get his medical needs taken care of!
Complain about this comment
No.132
Absolutely agree.
America needs Barack Obama more than many Americans realise. Good luck with the treatment Dominick (5).
Complain about this comment
#133
And your point is? I've read your post several times now and i fail to see any sense in it at all - especially the inane rhetorical questions at the beginning.
Complain about this comment
The US is the land of opportunity, NOT the land of success.
Everyone wants the success more than they realize the opportunity.
The majority of the people that walk into a casino, leave with less money than when they entered. That doesn't seem to stop people from gambling in the thousands, be it at Ladbrokes or Caesar's Palace.
They want to win more than they think about the losing.
So, why don't Casino's ask winners to donate some of the winnings to losers? After all it's just basic human decency.
Complain about this comment
Apologies - there was only one inane rhetorical question. The rest were just inane ramblings.
Complain about this comment
Post# 133; R-Snail wrote: "What a travesty! There is inequality in the US Healthcare system... We must act now!
Create a new tax, that'll solve everything".
The irony is that you wouldn't have to create a new tax. You easily could fund it from the existing budget, or cut a few unnecessary expenditures (trimming the pork from Alaska would be a good start).
Of course, it would be nice if all the good God-fearing folks were so generous with their charity that national healthcare was no longer necessary. But we both know that's not going to happen, so let's work with the reality.
Complain about this comment
From personal experience:
the French public health care system is currently the best that I know;
The Canadian system was good, but has been run into the ground by ministers who wanted to shift to private insurance systems.
The German public system seems good, but I was using private insurance while there.
______________________
It is necessary to guard against abuses in any insured system, public or otherwise.
Examples, paying taxi fares for those who can use buses; paying for "cures" in spas, too frequent use for minor or imaginary complaints.
Complain about this comment
#133 R-Snail:
"Malaria kills too many kids in the tropics. Smallpox is making a comeback worldwide. AIDS (a behavioural disease) is rampant in Africa."
Okay quite apart from you completely failing to get that universal healthcare is not about charity R-Snail I have to ask where you get the notion that Smallpox is making a comeback? Unless there's been some act of bio-terrorism I haven't heard about Smallpox is extinct outside of a couple of labs.
Complain about this comment
#133 R-Snail.
Surely if your taxes cover healthcare then why would you pay for more on top of that unless it was specialist or private? The money should be there to cover you since it was deducted in taxes.
So your saying its bad that people don't want to pay twice?
It is your healthcare that is in a total mess, not ours. If the situation was the same in the UK or France there would be recuring protests/riots for change up and down the country until change happened. We do more than just blog on this side of the Atlantic.
On second thoughts lets just ignore it all because you can't fix everything, even if you are the "greatest country in the world" with the 37th best healthcare in the world that almost half don't have access to.
Also, what's your point about the do-gooders who don't believe in God?
Complain about this comment
Ref 143
Thanks!
Complain about this comment
New ads by famous directors
Peace and movies
ed
Complain about this comment
136. Junai
So your point is: Tax = Charity?
Complain about this comment
#152
Very pretty graph Ed but to what does it refer?
Complain about this comment
Well given the messed up US political system, there is about zero chance of a more wide coverage health system being adopted.
Having senators elected every 2 years meens long term planning for large projects is so difficult.
4 years is too short for a presidential term, it was just fine in the 19th century, but now, with complex high technology projects, it sucks.
For example, if the senate elections of 2006 had given the Democrats just a few more seats, they could have cut off funding to the US forces in Iraq. Defeat and humiliation would have followed.
As it was, by accident, they were just enough votes in the new 2006 senate to able to force out "light suicide cavalry" Rumsfeldt and get someone competent in [Gates], saving the day.
The US system is too democratic in a sense, it gives too many chances for whinny constituents, lobbyists and special interest groups to sabotage reform half way through.
Even if Obama has 60 votes in the new senate, the senators coming up for reelection in 2 years in more conservative states will start to whine and block things if it meens more taxes. [it will].
The senate system needs to be abolished. That is NOT going to happen. In a Federal constitution the small states will never allow the more populous states the increased power of a pure parliamentary system.
If the US could change to a 5 year term for President, Parliament [the house in the US system] and abolish the senate, the US might actually function smoothly as a Nation state.
The current "redistricting" or corrupt gerrymandering of house rep.s boundaries would have to be banned.
So only a new constitution required then....
Could any president be trusted with the power of a single Nation state America, perhaps ten times as strong as she is now?
Really the only thing Obama has right is that insurance companies cannot be trusted to write fair contracts with customers who can't understand the small print. They will always try to cherry pick the easy procedures that make profitable customers.
The cheating mechanism: Corporate Lawyers who decieve with their twisted convoluted paragraphs and weasel words.
"All politics is local" under the current corrupt US political system.
Thats why Obama has $1 Billion dollars of "pork barrel" or special state spending are applied for with earmarks. Its a game to him, manipulate and control the people.
Obama is the very worst of Chicago machine politicians. Once he thinks he is in power and safe, you can expect trouble on foreign and domestic fronts - if I am right he is a Chavez style charismatic leftist populist with intentions of staying in power like a limpet.
Julius Caesar couldn't save the Roman republic, and I think Obama will doom the US one. He makes tricky dicky look like a schoolboy, he is so subtle, taking a little position here a little power there.
It seems so innocent, dosn't it, not stcking to matching federal funds [effectively a funding limit] but once he has used that unlimited spending once- it is like an addictive drug - he will attempt all sorts of tricks. The key is manipulating the senate, do that and the system will be vulnerable.
Sadly, the "Frank" in "Dreams of my father" is Frank Marshall Davis. Obama's closest mentor was a long time member of the US communist party - the Stalinist, Moscow controlled one.
Marshall's FBI records are online, including all his time in Chicago. Names dates its all there.
Its as if all the cruelties of "jim crowe" racist laws, lynch mobs and denial of the human spirit and potential that took place in the South in the 19th and 20 centuries have been distilled down, and placed into a diciplined, charismatic vessel of revenge and dorment fury.
I am not looking foward to the future much. Things look fairly dark for us all. The old soldier Mccain will fall, and the world will change, dark deeds, false corrupt money and deception will rule.
Perhaps freedom was just a dream that was doomed to die, killed by hubris, ignorance, race hate, greed, selfishness and gullibility.
2000, North Carolina, the Primary, thats the moment, the turning point... the victory of the great clown, the fools have killed us all.
Follow the pied piper, hear his hypnotic tune, destruction and chaos await.
Complain about this comment
the smug 'devil take the hindmost' attitudes here are incredible - do you people not ever think that if you lost your job due to illness you might move from being top of the pile to the bottom ??
Your self-satisfaction won't get you very far when you realise that you are on top now 'because you've worked very hard, gone to college' etc. - but that if you suffered from cancer, or a severe mental illness, lost your job because of the credit crunch, the 'No such thing as society' allergy to 'spreading the wealth around' will mean you will be fending for yourself without any help whatsoever.
How can supposedly 'intelligent' people show so little circumspection. Do they not see that ii is possible to 'do so well' in the States only because they rely on dumping on the poor people and being willing to walk on the other side of the road rather than help those in more need than they are - Anyone can succeed financially, the mafia and drug dealers do it all the time - doing so while having ethical and moral values is just a little harder work..
And I thought America was 'One Nation Under God..' Gee-Whiz, haven't you ever read the Sermon on the Mount ?
Complain about this comment
135.
Ed. You trust the CIA Factbook?
A quick glance makes me thankful I was born in the UK... odds are I'd be dead if I was born in Africa.
What an apt discussion today... Universal Healthcare covers both of life's certainties.
Long life to you too.
Complain about this comment
This is an answer to ricky and your acquaintance from Iran. He came to America for his surgery well prepared with cash in pocket to have his surgery. Yes, there are foreigners who come here for their surgeries; the major hospitals market abroad and give their prospective patients the costs up front and demand, depending on the treatment, thousands of dollars (example, $35,000.00 ten years ago for a downpayment on heart surgery); they are then charged for pharmaceuticals , additional days in hospital if they go beyond the contracted amount and additional for an apartment during their post discharge follow-up. Yes, your Iranian friend came here but he had the money up front to do so. U.S. hospitals also do charity surgeries for children from abroad BUT for our own, it's a huge struggle even for those who have paid through the nose for insurance will still find themselves hounded for charges not covered...it can be a relentless badgering of phone calls and one can find himself / herself in dispair. You strike me as someone who has never needed to worry about the costs of healthcare...and I hope you never do but the U.S. still doesn't understand that if you provide preventive care to all, including dental, the costs of healthcare decrease because you don't end up treating cases that become so severe that the patient ends up in hospital and requiring intensive care for extended periods.
Complain about this comment
Ref 135
Thanks for the update and words of encouragement. I am sure some people will find comfort in knowing that we are above Swaziland and Mozambique! I remember clearly how the healthcare debate suddenly shifted to comparisons with Chile's system when Hillary Clinton raised the healthcare issue a dozen years ago. Nothing against Chile, which I believe is a beautiful country, but wouldn't it be make more sense to compare our system with those in Japan, Australia, the EU or Canada?
In my opinion, our worst enemy is us. I am convinced that the problems we are facing, from fiscal and economic matters to healthcare and education, are not insurmountable and could be overcome if we all commit ourselves to making the sacrifices needed to solve them. High among our priorities should be the ability to accept the reality that there is always room for improvement and that adopting concepts and systems that work in other countries is not a sign of weakness, but a pragmatic approach to improve our way of life.
A false sense of patriotism, and political, cultural and ideological extremism, contribute to the mindset that exacerbate the problems we are experiencing. Hopefully, the next President will adopt some of the proposals offered by the opposition, in addition to implementing his own, since the best solutions can usually be found in the center rather than the fringes.
Complain about this comment
65 vizhead
does anyone under 60 still say "Put that in your pipe". Try and keep up.
----------------------------------------------
yes they do they just do not reefer to tobacco
as to health care in europe or the UK(as opposed to the sought after french version).
After all america really has none.
Many times we have been through the stats.
America spends 5 times as much to provide care to 1 / 5 of the percentage population.
To get a doc if you have no regular because you have no health insurance will cost $150 per 5 mins .
I tested it.
The number of serious accidents with medications went up 30% last year alone in the US.
TB strains resistant to meds were and are created when people cannot afford to finish their treatment .
New YORK first drug resistant strains appear.
You as a healthy person face people with less health.
They can and will infect people who then have to get treatment.YOU COSTS GO UP.
Plague have hit Europe in their history hence they leave cats to kill rats(histroical thing) and they provide health care so we do not have people with infectious diseases running around, so people that feel ill can go in get treated and not make your kids die because you were too small minded to understand the BASIC CONCEPT OF SOCIETY.
Just out of pure selfish interest you should be into health care for all.
but you are too american and brainwashed.
LOL love to use that word sometimes.
But really the docs will still make money everyone will.
Hope you get coughed on today.
And all you who say no to health care.
Go look how much that costs YOU.
And hope you get coughed on today to.
Complain about this comment
I think from the number and vehemence of the posts here, it's obvious that health care is a major topic among Americans. If the markets hadn't melted down when they did, I suspect it would have been the number one topic in the campaign.
A recent survey found that 91 percent of Americans thought the country was going in the wrong direction. It's incredibly hard to get 91 percent of Americans to agree on anything, even whether the sky is blue and the grass is green. So the fact that so many Americans hold that opinion is astounding. Health care is certainly part of that perception. So are the inequalities that have crept into our society.
Complain about this comment
as to the best.
New MS treatment coming out of the UK.
Relative of mine fought for a while to be treated while in the states by one of the top pancreatic cancer specialists only to return to the UK to find that a gentler for effective treatment was being developed at the local hospital.
Guildford Hospital.
Germany I think just sewed on two arms to a guy.
America is in the middle of the world series even though they ban one of the only other countries that play that game from ever playing or entering in their country and have no other countries represented at all.
"World series"
"Best in the world"
"Best in america" would be more accurate.
Complain about this comment
Fit to lead?
Uninsurable, I reckon ;-) Too risky!
ed
Complain about this comment
Sankari
the "can do" nation can't
Re#$%$#@ Snail 133
Small Pox coming back,
and you will be safe being wealthier eh?
But what when your gardeners germs get you, or that person serving you your meals.
Did you know sick people should not go to work in food prep ( especially uncooked food eh). It is against the rules, but then they get no sick pay or time off soooooo. they GO.
And you get a new disease from their holidays .Happy Holidays.
What if that person coughing had the dreaded SARS.
Would you know before it was too late?
Will they invent a cure for the next one before you die from it.
is it like a movie or is it reality where pandemics occur because you were too cheap to help your neighbour?
Happy Hiding small pox is coming
Complain about this comment
Or for some stats I refer to the "health care debate earlier."
Complain about this comment
#6.
Absolutely true that there are two sides to this story, and that the best health care in the world is available in the US.
Of course, if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.
So you get what you pay for. And if your life is ruined by a treatable disease you don't have the scratch to get treatment for, well, tough luck. You should have picked your parents better so you could afford it.
In truth, "broken" is too kind a word to describe the US health care system.
The best working plan I could imagine would be to guarantee everyone the health care given to US government employees. Then we would have the best health care plan in the world at a reasonable cost.
A reasonable alternative would be any other kind of universal health coverage.
Neither candidate is for that. McCain is right about Obama's plan. It would discourage employment, and also would not cover everyone. McCain's plan, on the other hand, is some kind of sick joke. Just to begin with, McCain wouldn't qualify for its coverage.
The chances of coming up with a sane and reasonable plan look to be just about zero, since the HMOs and others who benefit from the disgraceful arrangement of the present pay too much to lobbyists and politicians to allow one to happen.
Complain about this comment
No.141
Paying taxes to support health care is a privilege
An uplifting post - well put and best wishes.
Complain about this comment
Reliably unreliable
;-)
Better off?
Peace and prosperity
ed
Complain about this comment
#145 R-snail wrote...
"The US is the land of opportunity, NOT the land of success.
Everyone wants the success more than they realize the opportunity."
Are you for a moment suggesting that everyone is the USA has equal opportunity to achieve success?
Do you ever go outside your own little comfort zone and see the real world?
It has been said many times that in a civilised society the wealthy have a moral/ethical obligation to help the less fortunate.
If not you simply reduce social mobility and perpetuate the problems in society of which you seen unaware or uncaring.
Peace and opportunity.
PS - the Casino analogy is simply facile and does no merit to your opinions.
Complain about this comment
149
asa I though he must be talking about the fact that there was just a report saying how insecure some of those facilities that are holders of small pox are.
Not good reading.
There was an example where the powers in all countries couldn't just kill it off they had to keep some for"future research""if needed"
So he may be right.
though I suspect was confusing TB with small pox
Complain about this comment
The whole issue of US healthcare is a vexed and fascinating one; how do they manage to spend over $6,000 per person per year (we spend less than half of that in the UK) and still get health outcomes that are worse than almost anywhere in the rest of the developed world?
Part of the answer lies in the two facts that drive so much of American culture: they love choice and they hate Government. You only have to look at any supermarket shelf in the US to see that choice is an absolute prerequisite (my favourite is the salad dressing shelf, with 25 brands of each of the 35 types of different flavours...), so any health care scheme that limits your God given right to choice is a non-starter.
Similarly, the resentment of (particularly Federal) Government comes with the American birthright; the United States are just that: a federation that delegates to Washington only those activities that individual states could not possibly do on their own (such as defence, and the national system of Interstate highways). So asking people voluntarily to give up the right to choice simply to allow a bunch of bureaucrats to control health care is several bridges too far as far as most Americans are concerned.
There are two frustrating ironies here: the first is that those people with higher health risks (generally the elderly and the really deprived) are also the most expensive drain on health resources, and they are already covered by Government controlled schemes through the Medicare and Medicaid programmes respectively, so it really wouldn't cost that much to cover the rest of the (less needy) population.
The second is that the people who do not have health insurance are those working in relatively lowly paid jobs in small companies. They choose this course partly because their companies are too small to be able to afford insurance, and partly because they are generally people young enough to still think of themselves as immortal, and so not in need of insurance anyway.
And although they aren't immortal, they are correct in thinking that they will draw on the health services least, which means that if they were insured, the price for the older, more intensive users of services would go down.
It's just like car insurance really; if we all pay, the premiums are cheaper all round. If only the high risk drivers insure, the cost rockets. The difference (in the UK anyway) is that we have the equivalent of compulsory third party cover, so everyone is 'insured', and the cost is reasonable.
Both Obama and McCain have avoided the mention of any state funded health care solution, and pragmatically, they are probably right to do so. But the consequences of individual decision making, under whatever model of health care that emerges, is bound to be more fragmented, certainly less efficient, and probably less effective than a more utilitarian, first world model where the boundaries between the state and the individual are not quite as sacrosanct as they continue to be in the New World.
Complain about this comment
#149
Quite - smallpox was eradicated in 1979. In fact to this day it is the only infectious disease to have been completely eradicated. So our misinformed friend, quite literally, couldn't have been more wrong. However that should come as no suprise - look at his/hers previous posts - the analogy on healthcare/casinos anyone?
Complain about this comment
# 142 - R-Snail
That is the nastiest post I have seen on these pages.
As the late, lovely Dave Allen might have said "May your God help you".
Complain about this comment
It is also ironic that while the Washington pleads poverty it can afford large sums for the "war on drugs" an utterly non-productive endeavor.
======================
149 North of 49
Well said.
they think the Forfeiture laws will mean they can make some money for them.
Well if house prices and Truck prices go any lower they will not be making any money.
------------------------
they could legalise Pot
but they Can't bring themselves to think what harm will that do when they already have armed drunks everywhere.;)
Complain about this comment
There is no doubt that American healthcare offers wonderful service, but that is no consolation to Americans who cannot afford it. Not only that, but it always strikes me as odd that there are Americans who not only accept that state of affairs but insist it continue.
What ricky78732 didn't stop to consider is that the rich Iranian taking up an American hospital bed was doing so at the expense of one of ricky's less wealthy compatriots, who couldn't afford it.
Way to go!
Complain about this comment
136
it is funny
america "promises" more money that any other then doesn't COUGH(sorry I'm not really sick just a cold) up.
Most of the money comes to american business I already posted the pdf file from the feds on that which did not say america is the biggest donator per capita in any way.
PER CAPITA
Complain about this comment
#145 - R-Snail
Oh come on - surely even you can see that there is a significant difference between wanting to be successful and merely wanting to continue to still be alive!
You know, I often find it baffling that those in the US who seem most wedded to 'survival of the fittest' freemarketism (the Right') and also those most in denial about the precepts of evolution (the 'Christian Right').
As human beings, we have been successful and 'evolved' beyond such red in tooth and claw barbarism by developing the concept of society and mutual support. My chances of survivial are dramtically increase if I help my fellow citizens survive in times of need so they can do the same for me if and when the wheel turns. So I'm more than happy to chip in for universal health care.
Complain about this comment
#153
Rsnail - quite obviously no. Read the post.
Complain about this comment
"The trouble with Big Brother government making decisions on healthcare is that first someone has to define the term;
"Healthcare"."
True again. What should and should not be covered ought to be a national debate. And I was guilty of knee-jerk cynicism in attributing the dim chances of a sane, reasonable and civilized health care arrangement to be created in the US in the forseeable future. In addition to the health care interests, there is strong popular sentiment against it.
The argument is that anything done by the government will be an expensive, inefficient, privacy-endangering nightmare. (I'm tempted to respond, right, just leave it in the hands of good old fashioned American individuals and the free market, and everything will be perfect, just like with the investment banks...) But as many arguments as I can muster along the lines of look, this is what all the civilized countries do, these arguments have some merit, and they're certainly sincerely held by many, perhaps a majority, who are not going to listen to me.
Complain about this comment
Ref 141
"The irony to me is the apparent objections to universal health care yet in other crises, where large numbers of people are affected, the first people asked for funds to cover the costs, is the federal government. It is also ironic that while the Washington pleads poverty it can afford large sums for the "war on drugs" an utterly non-productive endeavor."
The greatest irony, in my opinion, is that those who object to universal healthcare on the basis that each individual must be responsible for their own welfare, are the same ones that support corporate bailouts, $300B real estate solutions such as the one proposed by John McCain during the second debate, and spending $10B a month in an unnecessary war.
The only conclusion I can reach is that responsibility applies only to individuals, not to our government or corporations who are often rewarded or bailed out for their ineptitude.
Complain about this comment
155. At 3:09pm on 23 Oct 2008, noservice wrote:
some sense the rest just paranoid.
It is not the elections and ballot measures that are at fault ( though long winded and many time divisive and counter productive).
the lack of a permanent civil service that fights against the elected official without being replaced.
Why was Donny Rumlad in running things as opposed to the head of the armed services or the head of Secret blah blahs.
The top generals were not into the war most Profesionals said bad move, it was the POLITICAL APPOINTEES.
Complain about this comment
#155 Exserviceman:
"Its as if all the cruelties of "jim crowe" racist laws, lynch mobs and denial of the human spirit and potential that took place in the South in the 19th and 20 centuries have been distilled down, and placed into a diciplined, charismatic vessel of revenge and dorment fury."
Okay exserviceman your posts seem to be getting more and more extreme and delusional, and by delusional I mean in the seek professional help sense rather the perjorative one.
Complain about this comment
# 155 - exserviceman
I am beginning to wonder who is the manchurian candidate around here. The nonsense that you write is straight out of the twisted mind of Andy Martin, conspiracy theoriser extraordinaire.
Conspiracy theories have moved on to become character assassination - and you exserviceman are being manipulated by some vile, crazy people.
Complain about this comment
In 2000 it was said that "Canada appears to be content to become a second-tier socialistic country, because of its universal health care and high taxes".
Imagine a country that has the second-highest corporate tax rates in the developed world. Its agricultural sector is heavily subsidised by the state. And one of its biggest industries - with 600,000 full-time employees and another 850,000 part-timers - is owned and operated by the government.
This country is the United States - the laissez-faire, devil-take-the-hindmost, money-worshipping United States.
That government-owned industry? The military.
Thirteen years ago the Wall Street Journal declared Canada "an honorary member of the Third World." The world looks a little different today. Canadian banks have not gone shaky like their American counterparts, there is no subprime mortgage or home foreclosure mess.
Complain about this comment
Fully nationalize health care in the US - there is no good reason not to if you remove the word "profit" from the discussion.
Complain about this comment
Junai139 (154),
I trust nobody, but I do refer to data, and I linked to the UN data instead of the CIA data....It's the international markets (shares) index over the last five years...
RSnail,
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
I've been talking to a friend in the States who has insurance, but must count amongst the ranks of the "under-insured". At one point she feared she might have breast cancer, and revealed that her insurance would not cover reconstruction in the event of surgery. Her insurance paid for a biopsy (although never all of the cost, there are always co-payments), but when someone screwed up and lost the sample, and she needed another, the insurance wouldn't cover the second biopsy. Worse still, she came to wonder whether the cancer treatment would be covered at all because it might count as a "pre-existing condition" (she had had a different type of cancer before).
She is not poor and has a relatively good job.
Surely, this is not worthy of a developed country.
Complain about this comment
#162 Jacksforge:
"as to the best.
New MS treatment coming out of the UK.
Relative of mine fought for a while to be treated while in the states by one of the top pancreatic cancer specialists only to return to the UK to find that a gentler for effective treatment was being developed at the local hospital.
Guildford Hospital."
Which reminds me; what about stem cell research? Moving ahead by leaps and bounds in the UK but heavily curtailed in the USA because Bush wanted to throw a bone to the pro-lifers. Short sigthed and hypocritical as I'm sure he was perfectly well aware the 'banned' research was going ahead in other countrys.
Complain about this comment
It is VERY simple - free healthcare fo all at the point of need equals a civilised society. If not, then you are in a society that is backward and inhumane. Shame on you for not fixing this basic human need. See the video of the charity medics and the long lines of poor people in the USA and lets hope someone sees sense - what a disgrace.
Complain about this comment
#173 ~ eightypercent
Sorry to be pedantic, by Dave Allen's sign off was "Good Night, and may your god go with you".
He is a great loss - the man call spin a yarn better than anyone else of his generation.
Complain about this comment
#93.vivaelcid: "Americans give more to charity than any other country in the world"
Let's not start that thread all over again; it's been done to death here. Track back a couple of months and it can be found.
Complain about this comment
#179
Excellent analysis. What amazes me is that, despite their mistrust of their own government, Americans remain so blindly patriotic. So many contradictions in the 'land of the free' (a contradiction itself).
I wonder if we'll ever see EU flags flying outside European homes?
Complain about this comment
Doesn't the American economy (or any economy for that matter) need a healthy and fit workforce?
And what do hard working Americans get from the tax they pay? Knowing their Christian country can nuke the world many times over?
I remember some posters on a previous blog arguing that the rest of the world is jealous of the US and that everyone wants to live in the States! Tut tut. What a pathetic world they live in.
Complain about this comment
Americans already pay more in taxation per capita (working population) NOT to offer universal healthcare than the UK population pays to run the entire NHS.
Federal spending on Medicaid and Medicare is $561 billion, or about $3600 per person for a working population of 155 million. On top of this we have state spending. In California, for example, the healthcare budget is $31 billion funded by 18.2 million employed, or around $1700/person. (I chose California, by the way, because the nubers were easy to get hold of. I don't know whether their figures are high or low). So we have a total tax burden of $5300 per person employed.
The UK spends £96 billion on state-funded healthcare, paid for by a working populaiton of 29 million. This is £3310 , or $5350 per person. In other words it is possible to run an entire country-wide healthcare service free at the point of delivery for less than the US spends on delivering Medicare and Medicaid.
The Republicans and Democrats both need to stop shying away from the "socialist" outcome of free healthcare and deal with the appalling inefficiency in government healthcare provision that they have put up with for all these years. If the UK can run a universal healthcare system on this money, surely the US can too. It is simply political dogma on both sides that prevents it.
None of this is meant to suggest that there shouldn't be private healthcare available as well, incidentally. Texans could still sell their services to Iranians and people could still choose to pay for private care if they preferred. This is what happens in the UK. But all basic needs are covered by the NHS.
Complain about this comment
160. jacksforge
Sir,
Jack, could not agree with your post more.
Kudos, only a fool would argue against the need to be sensible member of society.
In todays highspeed jet settin' society, it is imperitive that disease is not spread unhindered for the cost of a few dollars.
Complain about this comment
1 in 8 americans who do get diagnosed with cancer will not seek treatment because they cannot afford to.
in the news last week
Complain about this comment
#142. R-Snail: "Not my idea of where I want my tax dollars going. . . Hmmm. How about assisted suicide. Didn't some British lad just go to Switzerland to kill himself... How horrendous that an Englishman had to travel aboad to get his medical needs taken care of!"
That mis-states the situation; his medical needs were being taken care of but the young man (23) decided he could no longer face life; he was paralyzed from the chest down, could not walk, had no hand function, was incontinent, and relied upon 24-hour care for everything else. As in the United States, euthanasia is unlawful in Britain, but permitted in Switzerland.
Complain about this comment
188 asaScot
yea and the states has all these victims of the war(soldiers for you that can't figure out which victims I reefer to) coming back and the Germans figure out how to transplant a couple of arms.
Best for our best?
Doug sorry but saying we can make life hard to learn lessons is rubbish.We all lived through crap and we know that ..it happens.
But your kids will not thank you for leaving them a country where half the population gets poisoned at work to provide stuff for the other half(Half generous) who refuse to pay the bills of helping those workers get healthy after their oshaless bosses have taken the micky for 40 years.
Complain about this comment
Some good posts here. Anthropolicist, in particular, taught me something, feohme and DominickVila were also particlularly insightful.
I'll try to add another. The enemy of civilization may be ad hominem (to the man) argument. Such ad hominem chestnuts as "big government" do nothing but short circuit civilized debate and prevent civilized solutions.
Our economy is mixed, with a large public sector and a larger private one. Enterprises of either are always flawed and often enough hopeless. This is not a sane and rational reason for writing off one or the other. Communists are not right to say the private sector shouldn't handle anything. Right wingers are not right in saying nothing should be left to the government.
Reasonable people understand this. And reasonable people always seem to be in the minority.
Most go on following their ad hominem leaders like Rush Limbaugh, whose goal is to bypass rational thought and play on the listener's emotions. Those who follow them I'm very tempted to describe with about the most contempuous word I know: "Doerfer." It's a particularly nasty way of saying "peasants." (It means, literally, villagers.)
Complain about this comment
# 17, LAWCHICAGO: Unfortunately, that sort of story is fairly common. The middle class gets beat up time and again. Major corporations gouge what they can get away with, as do the CEO's et al - when the company folds, tossing THOUSANDS out of work, having lost their livelihood, pensions, etc? Oh, well!
Americans fully recognize that healthcare here has to be revamped; it's a nightmare, costs keep going up. But we're inherently suspicious of government-controlled healthcare.
As I understand it now, it's not at all uncommon in the UK to have the standard healthcare coverage (which guts your annual income) AND to BUY extra coverage; from what I understand, this added coverage assists you in moving up in line for treatment/surgery, etc.
Am I incorrect? I'd be interested to hear.
Complain about this comment
Doesn't the American economy (or any economy for that matter) need a healthy and fit workforce?
lol love you thoughts there, but really they have no need for healthy people. manufacturers can always get more.
look at how big people get on the subsidised fat industry.
More money is spent subsidising the un healthy corn syrup processed food multinational monoculture farms than on the health care to make people better after they fall into the patriotic mode of eating themselves to death.
Complain about this comment
#200 USA-immer: No, actually, private health insurance is quite rare in the UK, about 8% have it, I believe.
Complain about this comment
195 Doug
Cheers .I am trying to be more cordial these days .and will appologise if I thought you were against the Idea of socialised protecting. But I see by your example of Jet setters you do get it.
:)
Complain about this comment
With health insurance, we pay about $800us a month for top of the line coverage. With two disabled children in the house, we had to go for the most expensive option. We still have medical expenses we pay out of pocket on top of that, and respite, certain therapies and treatments aren't covered, even on the best insurance.
And even with that, we're darn lucky. If we were to loose our insurance, just *one* of the life-saving medications in the family costs almost $2000US, for one months worth.
This is on top of the other vitals like food, shelter and utilities.
I would happily pay more in taxes if it meant never having to worry again if I could afford to keep my family healthy.
Complain about this comment
I pay 670 a month for my wife and I, Blue cross blue shield, 3000, yes three thousand dollar dedutable and 30% co-pay on above that 3000 dollar amount, ridiculous, but the best we can get due to her being diagnosed years ago with cystic kidneys and that being what her mother died of.
When, her kidneys fail we will sell the home and property to pay for dialysis and if we're lucky a transplant (if we find and live long enough for the match), considering the cost to my mother-and-father in law, we won't last two years. My father in-law died broke and broken from muscluar dystrophy, just a year after his wife passed, had nothing left to live for or with.
This story plays out in sad regularity daily here. Many seek no help as to not be a burden on thier children, thier spouse or the parents.
We have two with muscular dystrophy who cannot get insurance, and the 'work' insurance excludes any illness or failure due to this disease.Basicly, covered for dental and the flu. Broken bones are considered muscular illness related.
Volunteer at any childrens hospital for one day, and in the dark and early morning you'll carry a tear in your eyes for weeks. Mainly for the ones just sent home, simply because at the 'moment' they are medically stable. Thank god for the joy of every success story, for without them,.........
Complain about this comment
#200 US-immer
Actually it's very uncommon to have private health insurance. Probably under 10% have it.
Medical care is given to all - non-urgent and elective procedures can mean long waiting lists .... but this is not a problem with the system per se, just with the funding of it.
Complain about this comment
Redwhiteandermblue,
I usually agree with you, but I personally resent the implication that "country" folk (peasants) or villagers can be classified as "unsophisticated", "stupid", etc., as implied by the use of the terms to which you refer. Both of these terms, as commonly used, say more about the user than those supposedly being contemptuously derogated.A proud villager and peasant.
More
Complain about this comment
#129. TheHandOfHistory: "It says on Wikipedia that the NHS is funded through general taxation and National Insurance contributions."
Wikipedia also notes
The factual accuracy of this article or section may be compromised due to out-of-date information. So there!!!
Complain about this comment
#200 ... You're totally correct!
I don't normally post on these pages, but being a UK resident who also suffers from Crohn's disease, this blog entry was of special interest to me.
To illustrate your point, USA-immer, I first suffered symptoms of Crohn's in August / September 2005. My doctor referred me for an appointment with a specialist and I was given an appointment for January 2006. However, as my symptoms worsened I went back to the doctor, who arranged for me to see the same specialist privately (cost £250) within the next two weeks. This sped up the whole process, as after seeing the specialist privately, he arranged for all my subsequent appointments with him to be at the local National Health Service hospital - free of charge, of course! I have received an excellent level of care on the NHS.
In June this year, my mother finally received a kidney transplant, having spent the past 3 years on dialysis. All of this treatment was done for free on the NHS and the quality of care has been first class in EVERY respect.
Complain about this comment
When I was younger I used to dream about emigrating to the USA. Now I wonder if that might literally be the death of me.
I'm beginning to appreciate the things in the UK that we often take for granted - free universal healthcare, gun crime being so rare, and a largely impartial state funded news organisation!
Complain about this comment
TheHandOfHistory and David_Cunard: the distinction between general taxation and national insurance is frankly pretty unimportant. The link between "National insurance" contributions and benefits is weak and getting steadily weaker. It's another tax in all but name.
All you need to know is that the NHS is funded from taxation.
Complain about this comment
I ought to apologize to Ed Igleheart and any others I've offended with the word "Doerfer." The irony I should not have left implicit is that using such a word is just the sort of ad hominem tactic, (seeking to raise heat rather than shine light) which I despise. It is also rather common and vulgar. (As long as no one minds the pejorative use of vulgar, which means, well, common. And what's the matter with common, for that matter...) It illustrated to me, rather darkly, that I'm never far from getting good and angry myself, and joining those who I've just criticized.
The personal history of it, and why I find it so contemptuous, is that it was spoken by an ex-Luftwaffe pilot who had become a teacher in a small German village I lived in, to describe his students other than my brother and me. It seemed an uncharitable verdict.
In any case, mea culpa, or, better, es tut mir weh. (It gives me pain.)
Complain about this comment
#209. youmissedabit: "he arranged for all my subsequent appointments with him to be at the local National Health Service hospital - free of charge, of course!"
Free of charge is a misnomer. The fact that you weren't handed a bill doesn't mean it is without cost. The British taxpayer foots the bill. It is debatable whether the American public is willing to spend vast amounts on each other's care; the population of the USA is roughly five times that of the United Kingdom. Using today's exchange rate, the cost to the UK is $159 billion; multiply that by five and it computes to $795 billion.
It is forgotten that in 1946, when the NHS Act was passed, the British electorate had no say in the matter, the medical profession was against it and the Conservatives voted negatively. It would not and will not be such a simple matter in America. Even if there were to be stateside NHS, it took two years to make ready - and that was sixty years ago; think how long it would take today! My guess is that if Mr Obama is elected, there will be little progress made before the end of his (first?) term in office. But please don't repeat the line that "the NHS is free", because it isn't. There's a vast difference between "free at the point of need" and no cost; it costs plenty!
Complain about this comment
Post #200; USA-immer wrote: "As I understand it now, it's not at all uncommon in the UK to have the standard healthcare coverage (which guts your annual income)".
The standard coverage does not "gut your income". It's so small that I don't even notice it.
In any case, the "standard healthcare coverage" is automatic; just like Australia's healthcare model, it applies to ALL PEOPLE, whether they pay tax or not. That's the beauty of the system.
Complain about this comment
#205 - Doug Texan. I really feel for you and sincerely hope that things improve for you and your family.
The problem with politics is always that you really need to cherry-pick the best policies of both sides.
If only we could get rid of this over-long posturing run up to the election, and just have 4 weeks (like most European countries) then the candidates would have to go on issues only.
Once again access to healthcare in a civilised country is a basic human right.
Best wishes to you.
Complain about this comment
It is an important thing to bear in mind with the NHS. Everytime there's a foul up the media pounce on it as proof the service is crumbling, after all disaster and scandal sell newspapers, while those who receive prompt and effective treatment are just plain boring to the press.
Complain about this comment
#209 - youmissedabit wrote
"However, as my symptoms worsened I went back to the doctor, who arranged for me to see the same specialist privately (cost ?250) within the next two weeks."
Where is the USA can you see a specialist for 250 pounds (about 450 dollars)?
I am delighted for you that this specialist then sorted your mother out NHS, but the initial problem of getting to see a specialist is one of funding, not the system per se. If the NHS was funded adequately, then you would not have had to go private.
Also #200 us-immer's initial point that it is not uncommon in UK to have health insurance is incorrect.
However even our private sector, for a one-off consultancy, will not cause anyone to lose their home to pay for it.
Peace and good health to all.
Complain about this comment
#210.StephenDerry: "I'm beginning to appreciate the things in the UK that we often take for granted - free universal healthcare, gun crime being so rare, and a largely impartial state funded news organisation!"
Only one of those three is correct; the NHS is not "free", it costs the British taxpayer billions of pounds annually, and the BBC is not funded "by the state". It is funded by license fees, commercial sales of programmes and overseas advertising, not directly by the government. And the way things are going, gun crime is not now "so rare", despite the law being that much different to the USA.
The way the word "free" is bandied around one would think that every medication, every pair of glasses and every person requiring long-term care gets it for nothing. It just ain't so!
Complain about this comment
#211. englishmaninmadrid: "All you need to know is that the NHS is funded from taxation."
Agreed absolutely, but there are many people in the UK who say "I paid my NI stamps" and believe that so doing pays for everything concerned with healthcare when of course it does not. The essential point of NIC is the state pension and unemployment benefits.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To#142Rsnail
I just read this that you posted.
Do you actually believe that mental health should be excluded from people who need help?
Do you believe that people CHOOSE to suffer from Bipolar disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, Autism, Gender Identity disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder etc.?
I was a clinical psychologist for more than forty years and I can tell you that mental illness is as REAL and PAINFUL as any physical disease. Sometimes there is no easy CURE and people require treatment and medication over a life time just as in Diabetes, Asthma or any other chronic disease.
Why should people with mental health issues who require help be less helped and covered by a health insurance program?
Your comment belongs several centuries in our past!
Complain about this comment
I don't know how UK tax rates compare to US tax rates, but the amount I pay in tax seems fair and reasonable to me, for the services I benefit from in return - free healthcare (and subsidised prescriptions), a free education, emergency services, streetlights, smooth roads and bridges, a safety net income should I lose my job, a free bus pass when I retire, and probably hundreds of other things that I cannot think of because I take them totally for granted.
I don't feel like my money is being wasted on people who don't deserve it, I think it is being invested in public services for the equal good of EVERYONE. I very rarely need to use the health service, but if I ever need to I'm glad it's there, and I don't have to worry about costly insurance policies, premiums, or various convoluted tax credit schemes.
I have no urge to vote for a tax cutting party for a few extra pennies in my pocket that I won't even notice - and I am by no means a wealthy man, I earn below the UK average. The American system to me seems weird, unfair, complicated and slightly scary. You guys must pay hardly any tax at all to make it worthwhile putting up with that.
Complain about this comment
posts like #6 is the clsssic case of why a single payer system wont work or be accepted.
the wealthy who can afford to pay for care dominate the discussion, protecting their own interests, and then uses that leverage to sell the idea to the average american who cant afford healthcare, that this system is bad for them.
the media is involved in this as well.
the general idea that 'i can afford it' so why change the system is the dominating viewpoint we hear through the media, blaming those who cannot afford it for being too unsuccesful in life.
to suggest that providing universal care in the wealthiest country in the world is leftist, liberal, or socialist is a shame.
the me-first attitude does not indicate a promising future for a nation, and the fact that it is promoted in the political system is an example of why the system is sadly broken.
my uncle once told me "in this country its every man forthemselves and god is for everyone"
tis is exceptionalism and individualism gone sour.
Complain about this comment
#217. RomeStu: "us-immer's initial point that it is not uncommon in UK to have health insurance is incorrect."
A British, commercial, insurance site (which the Mods might not permit me to post) states that as many as 12.5 per cent of the UK population has private medical insurance policies. Over two and a half million people in the UK have private health care provided direct by their employer.
The same site goes on to say
Unfortunately, most medical insurance policies include a list of illnesses and conditions that they automatically do not cover. These include pregnancy, drug abuse, infertility, GP fees, medical prescriptions, dentistry, abuse with alcohol, AIDS, chronic diseases such as asthma or diabetes, cosmetic surgery and a number of other diseases depending on the insurer.
"However even our private sector, for a one-off consultancy, will not cause anyone to lose their home to pay for it."
A one-off consultancy might not, but requiring long-term ("continuing) care most likely would. Despite the introduction of the National Framework, tens of thousands of the elderly are denied funding and are obliged to lose most of their savings and to sell their homes to pay for their care. The present Labour government has made it far more difficult for these needy and sick people to be funded by the NHS since so much is considered to be "social care" - even when the underlying problem is caused by a medical condition.
Complain about this comment
Redwhiteandermblue,
I fear my acceptance of your gracious apology has incurred the wrath of the Mods (who are as Gods), because I included some furrin words...
;-(
ed
Complain about this comment
#224 David ..... I agree with you. I think we are just nitpicking over details.
12.5% is still not many (I think I estimated 10% - and it was a guess).
And I have consistently stated that the idea of socialised medicine in sound - if correctly funded. My comment about "one off private" consultancy was in response to a post using that exact example.
Complain about this comment
"The American system to me seems weird, unfair, complicated and slightly scary."
You're far too kind.
"You guys must pay hardly any tax at all to make it worthwhile putting up with that."
We would, except for service on the debt (28%) and the military budget.
Complain about this comment
I am a 25 year old single woman living in the US. I have had jobs paying $6-9.25 an hour since i was 18. I qualified for a healthplan that let me go to the clinic, but not the hospital. i could go for check-ups, if i had small things wrong like colds or infections. i had a $10 copay. not horrible, but if i broke my leg or had to use an ambulance and got taken to the hospital, it would be out of pocket.
eventually i avoided going to the clinic at all costs and after a long time i got a bladder infection, i called up the clinic for an appointment but they said it had been too long since i had been there and there were no spots for new patients. i ended up going to my old family doctor where i paid $60 to visit and he hooked me up with a free antibiotic because he knew i was uninsured. now i have no where to go if i get sick except my family doctor.
oh and about 3 years ago i got a kidney stone and couldnt stand the pain after about 12 hours i went to the emergency room, after about 2 hours, 2 catscans, and some pain medication, i had a $1,500 bill. i didnt even need one of the catscans, but they did it anyway.
it is horrible to work full time and not be able to go anywhere if you get sick. dont get me started on my boyfriend who has polycystic kidney disease and refuses to go to the doctor for fear he might get diagnosed. he has no insurance, so if he ever gets it, he will have a pre-existing condition. it is so sad. but what can we do but try to stay healthy and avoid accidents.
Complain about this comment
How about this - get rid of all health insurance and let us bargain for our doctors and medicines. We could save a bundle. No inefficient administration to pay for. No middemen to pay for. No corruption to pay for.
As for the poor - do it the way you did it years ago. Reopen the clinics. We didn't have to pay for them then. Let the poor not pay for them now. You didn't even have to have forms or anything. You just went in and waited.
I'll bet that the prices on everying would come down because the buyer would be king.
Complain about this comment
I heard on the radio not too long ago that a person who can't afford the meds they need can contact that pharmaceutical companies and plead their case. In many instances, they will pay for your medication month after month. One woman called in and said they had been covering her meds for a while (I don?t remember exactly how long) at approx. 1000.00 bucks a month. But, this is a secret that isn?t supposed to get out. How extremely sickening is it that Americans have to call up pharmaceutical companies and literally beg for their life? America has literally put our lives, our comfort and our pride on the line by making us beg on our hands and knees for help from drug companies. When did we go wrong? Oh yah, and don?t forget how many people not just teenagers rely on planned parenthood for their birth control needs and some limited basic care needs because they can?t afford it otherwise. It?s just too out of reach. Ridiculous.
Complain about this comment
#6 Ricky 78732,
Generally, because our experience and sources of information are limited, it is difficult to arrive at an accurate assessment of the relative quality of health care systems (or anything else for that matter) around the world. In my particular case, I have had direct experience with health care in a number of European countries, the Caribbean, and Latin American. Still, my sample size is limited. However, my wife and I have a friend and colleague who is a Professor at a well-regarded medical school in our region who has spent the past decade working with international teams charged with evaluating the quality of physical facilities and medical care at hospitals around the world. His work on these teams has taken him to many hospitals on every continent. I would like to share his perspective.
First, I should point out that our friend is a member in good standing in the American Medical Association, he has over thirty years of experience beyond medical school, and is neither a cheerleader nor a harsh critic of medical care in the U.S. Instead, he is as objective as one can be about something so critical and controversial as health care. So, what is our friend?s assessment? Though quality of care varies significantly, he has found many health care systems around the world where the quality of care is as good or better than in the U.S. The one glaring difference, between the U.S. system and others around the world, is that the cost of health care is lower everywhere compared to here. If costs were an issue, it is not a given that he would seek medical care here in the U.S. for himself or a family member.
So, I would caution skepticism when we hear major political figures, or others, telling us that, "we have the best medical care in the world." We should ask how they arrived at this conclusion and think critically about how they respond to the question.
Complain about this comment
#230. ladycm "don't forget how many people not just teenagers rely on planned parenthood for their birth control needs"
Condoms can be as cheap as $10 for 25 - that's 40 cents each; there can surely be very few who cannot afford basic protection. A pack of cigarettes (i.e. 20) is roughly $3.25, plus applicable tax, and many smoke a pack or more a day. If smokers and those, for example, receiving food stamps, cannot afford the simplest form of contraception, there's something very wrong with their budgeting skills. "Spoiling the moment" is no excuse - and a lot cheaper than a pregnancy, carried to term or not.
Complain about this comment
True, but I guess more than the birth control I mean the checkups. Although, surely it is good to double up on bc and condoms.
Complain about this comment
In response to the following:
Vivaelcid: "The health issue is not why people are against communism. Americans like their freedom....There is no "magic wand" solution to this problem. If, overnight , America offered universal healthcare for all, then the system would collapse under the weight of illegal immigrants getting free healthcare"
My response: It is interesting that one of the world's most successful economies is China (Communist), with whom I believe the US has a significant debt. I fail to see how a civilised country can consider itself free when the 'politic' on this important issue is tied by the corporate power of insurance companies and this misguided notion that somehow a Universal healthcare system makes you less free. The reds under the bed can perhaps be replaced by the fear of the immigrants under the bed! If there is as you state a 'problem' with non-nationals seeking free healthcare (I am not sure about the connection you make with california et al), then a political solution is surely required?
David_Cunard: "That's not strictly true. You pay nothing for these services provided in the UK by the National Health Service, but since you are not given a bill doesn't mean you don't pay! The NHS is funded through general taxation so, assuming that you have paid income tax (and anything else into the Exchequer), you are paying one way or the other: the charge is hidden......Having hip replacement surgery in three months time doesn't appear to be very swift to me....If one can accept the waiting times, fine, but in this day of instant gratification, I fear that American patients might not take kindly to waiting so long, even if it was "free"
My response: David, you kindly copied my comment where I said we paid taxes, so I am not sure why you appear to think that I missed that point. The NOTHING point was meant to illustrate that by contributing through taxation and prescription charges (note the subtle but important point about the more vulnerable people in our society), we are free from the burden of making choices on our ability to pay when it comes to the question of our health. There is nothing hidden in my comments. Ahem, 3 months is a long time to wait? Again, whatever my wife has needed to make herself more comfortable (and she is), she has received. By your own illustration you have demonstrated that this is a mature system, where everyone can get what they need and it is a system that attends to the immediate needs of those who need it most. Your point on instant gratification is a good point, but I would quote the great Oscar Wilde who said -
"We are all born American, but we die French"!
Eightpercent:
My response: Spot on my old 'Socialist' Chap!
RomeStu:
My response: Hit the nail of the head me old cock sparrow!
Peterdough: "Detainees in Guantanamo have access to free health care. What does this say? that Americans should turn to travel to Cuba in order to get the medical help they need?"
My response: An extremely good point and well illustrated in the moving and disturbing film Sicko by Michael Moore - perhaps some of the contributors on this post should sit (putting any prejudices they have to one side about the esteemed Mr Moore) and view this film before they exercise their democratic rights?
Marstoutatis: "This means that the NHS is currently costing the average household about ?207 per month."
My response: And worth every single penny and I would be prepared to pay more...whoops, I just can't control the Socialist devil within me!
RomeStu: "The President's Brain is missing"
My response: Do I remember it...yes...and I had to nurse back to health (or was it the NHS) some very shell-shocked Americans who were staying with us at the time! They did take it very well, but couldn't understand why we laughed at the depiction of Maggie and the Royal family!
Djowhite:
My Response: Excellent points
Thehandofhistory: "Even in America, essential services such as the police and fire brigade are socialised, so why not socialise the health care system too? The right to free health care should be a fundemental right for every citizen".
My response: It never fails to amaze me how some Americans can miss this SOCIALIST point. Well stated old bean!
R-Snail: 2 posts
My response: First post; A somewhat depressing post but I like your point that it should be all about 'basic human decency'.
Second post; That's the beauty of a Universal healthcare system; it is constantly redefining itself, to meet the needs of the contributors to the system. Your comments appear to suggest a 'fundementalist' approach, almost like "keep the barbarians at the gate Hagor" I am not sure how you can define assisted suicide as healthcare, perhaps that end product is an example of how any healthcare system can fail, perhaps we have have not yet redefined the care that should be given in such sad cases.
Anthropolicist: "So asking people voluntarily to give up the right to choice simply to allow a bunch of bureaucrats to control health care is several bridges too far as far as most Americans are concerned....But the consequences of individual decision making, under whatever model of health care that emerges, is bound to be more fragmented, certainly less efficient, and probably less effective than a more utilitarian, first world model where the boundaries between the state and the individual are not quite as sacrosanct as they continue to be in the New World".
My response: The bridges point raises an important point of just how mature or knowledgeable the US public are, or not as the case may be. Fear appears to be the dividing factor in US politics, your pragmatic point on the candidates is interesting. I am not sure I would agree that the boundaries between a state and an individual are not sacrosanct, there are plenty of examples and challenges in the UK where those issues are challenged. The fact is that the NHS is one of those 'sacrosanct' areas, but there are many areas where the local populace can input into the health debate and decision making which does not leave such important matters in the hands of bureaucrats.
Englishmaninmadrid:
My response: A salutary tale and one that US citizens should consider carefully before 4/11/08 and not fall for the same old kidology!
Feohme:
My response: I agree Dave Allen was a deliciously wonderful!
Junai139: "I wonder if we'll ever see EU flags flying outside European homes?"
My response: I think that we are all far to SOCIALIST for that!
Redwhiteandermblue: "Most go on following their ad hominem leaders like Rush Limbaugh, whose goal is to bypass rational thought and play on the listener's emotions. Those who follow them I'm very tempted to describe with about the most contempuous word I know: "Doerfer." It's a particularly nasty way of saying "peasants." (It means, literally, villagers.)"
My response: Some good points, almost like lambs to the slaughter, the death of free thinking souls? However, and this is just on a cultural point, to call someone a peasant in France is considered a compliment. The salt of the earth and many of the peasants I know there are extremely astute on political affairs. It appears that not all peasants can be said to be the same!
USA-immer:
My response: So called top up insurance or private medical insurance is not that common in the UK (it mostly comes through employment packages). There is talk about opening up the top up insurance market - that debate has just started...can't wait for the fireworks on that one!
Dougtexan:
My response: My blood boiled when I read your sad story...how can US citizens from what is arguably one of the greatest developed nations on the earth be so anal about this issue. Who cares if you think it is SOCIALIST, who cares if you end up paying more taxes - what is surely right is that you should vote for your best opportunity for UNIVERSAL health care NOW?! Perhaps it is the case in the US the view is that 'there but for the grace of God, Yarweh or Allah go I'?
Wingnut:
My response: Again a blood boiling story, this just would not be allowed to continue in the Uk or in the EU!
Just look what you have started Justin - perhaps you should run for the Presidency! Do you think John and Barack are following this thread?
Complain about this comment
re 218 you are completely wrong.
Healthcare in the UK is funded by taxation, but at a level virtually no-one notices as a significant cost.
Hence to all intents and purposes from the patients perspective it IS free.
Also the total healthcare cost as a percentage of GDP is much lower than in the USA system which is way too expensive due to all the huge profits / salaries etc.
Just read all the tragic posts here about sick people in the USA not getting care - in the UK care and income are completely detached.
Finally gun crime stats in the USA bear no relation at all to the low levels in the UK - the number of gun homicides a year in school playgrounds alone in LA is higher than the TOTAL in London, by way of example.
It is not all bad in the USA of course, nor all good here in the UK but please don't try and compare health and gun crime as we live in different worlds. I know which I feel is more civilised and its here.
I feel strongly about this healthcare issue as it is a stain on the USA a country I love and visit regularly - with health insurance of course!
Complain about this comment
Having lived in several countries in my 61 years I can tell you without a doubt that the US only has very good medical care for the wealthy or well off. The standard of medical care is much higher in most of Europe and Canada for middle class people. The cost is also much less in reality as well medical treatment being superior.
Complain about this comment
She may not have money for insurance but she certainly saved a buck or two to pay for the hairdresser's
Complain about this comment
#12 selfevidenttruths:
Your 40% uninsured figure is way too high. It's more like 16% uninsured. But even this is unacceptable for a country like ours.
What worries me with universal health care is how will it affect what we have now? I've read too many scary stories about the British system to want that.
Complain about this comment
#213 David Cunard
It is forgotten that in 1946, when the NHS Act was passed, the British electorate had no say in the matter, the medical profession was against it and the Conservatives voted negatively.
You're wrong on two accounts I'm afraid David. You are correct about the medical profession (well, family doctors anyway) wanting to keep their private practices; and in fact they got their wish, however, their performance is less than desired!
You are incorrect in saying that the British elecorate had no say: they voted for the implementation of the 1944 Beveridge Report in the 1945 General Election by a huge landslide.
The wartime coalition govt headed by the tory Churchill published the Beveridge Report in 1944. Moreover, it was Churchill who said the NHS will look after you 'from cradle to grave'. The Tories believed in the principles of the Beveridge Report, but, admittedly probably would have not gone as far as Attlee's Labour Govt did.
Complain about this comment
238. At 11:46am on 24 Oct 2008, lochraven wrote:
#12 selfevidenttruths:
Your 40% uninsured figure is way too high. It's more like 16% uninsured. But even this is unacceptable for a country like ours.
What worries me with universal health care is how will it affect what we have now? I've read too many scary stories about the British system to want that.
----------------------------------------------------
Where do you get your stats from?
another pathetic small minded and IGNORANT american.
oooh we could have an NHS where all get seen to, but the brits one doesn't work.
WELL I SPENT 3 HOURS IN THE PRIVATE AMERICAN SYSTEM TO HAVE A DOC SAY "YES YOU DO NEED ANTIBIOTICS FOR THAT"
$15O 5 MINS.
THREE HOURS WASTED AT 2 ON A TUESDAY AFTERNOON.
I'D HAVE MORE CHANCE OF GETTING SEEN TO IN A UK HOSPITAL A/E ON A FRIDAY NIGHT.
kep living as ignorant as you do.
as for the %16
where do you make up your statistics again?
Complain about this comment
#6
Tell me what that man from Iran does for a living? Sounds like if he can afford the flight over he can afford much more. You don't just show up an unknown immigrant off the street here in the U.S and ask for an operation. It must have been pre-arranged and paid for in advance. I need a tooth pulled, have no insurance, and the dentists looked at me like a leper!
Complain about this comment
#240 jacksforge:
I stand by what I wrote: 16% of Americans are uninsured as of the latest statistics of 2005.
And now for you tirade. You are one out of control dude. I suggest you seek some help before you hurt someone or yourself. You've lost it.
Complain about this comment
#240 jacksforge
"Where do you get your stats from?"
I'm not sure where lochraven got the statistic but here is how anyone can arrive at the same estimate.
The estimate of approximately 16% uninsured results from what is apparently the current consensus estimate of 47 million uninsured in the USA.
47million/300million x 100 = 15.67%
Still the point remains significant. This is far too many people (one in six) without health insurance, where health care costs are the highest in the world.
Complain about this comment
#232 David_Cunard wrote:
"230. ladycm "don't forget how many people not just teenagers rely on planned parenthood for their birth control needs"
Condoms can be as cheap as $10 for 25 - that's 40 cents each; there can surely be very few who cannot afford basic protection. If smokers and those, for example, receiving food stamps, cannot afford the simplest form of contraception, there's something very wrong with their budgeting skills. "Spoiling the moment" is no excuse - and a lot cheaper than a pregnancy, carried to term or not."
Once again in principle I find myself in agreement with you, but in practice the situation comes down to education and planning .... and the fact that many religious groups promote abstinence as a form of birth control and refuse to countenance any form of sex education, leaving many many young people woefully unprepared for the real world if they fall off the wagon.
I vote for education education education .... and then the morning after pill for those who want it .... just think of the misery that could be avoided and the lives that could be put back on track.
Complain about this comment
Although there is no general federal health care system for everyone, each state has a right to form their own.
A large number of state have or are in the process of offering health care coverage for its citizens.
The rabid response from jacksfroge, #240, whose only purpose here is to demonize the US is pathetic. I've been reading your post and have come to the conclusion that you have been burning the midnight oil looking for everything you can find with a fine tooth comb that will support your insanity. You really sound possessed and need help.
Complain about this comment
245. At 2:20pm on 25 Oct 2008, lochraven wrote:
Although there is no general federal health care system for everyone, each state has a right to form their own.
A large number of state have or are in the process of offering health care coverage for its citizens.
The rabid response from jacksfroge, #240, whose only purpose here is to demonize the US is pathetic. I've been reading your post and have come to the conclusion that you have been burning the midnight oil looking for everything you can find with a fine tooth comb that will support your insanity. You really sound possessed and need help.
------------------------------------------
Loch vulture
Rabid?
Hmmm.
Demonise only eh?
probably makes me unpatriotic eh.
maybe even a terrorist eh?
Pathetic answer. get some facts out little brain.
Burning the midnight oil to find problems with america.
You're crazy. It is real easy.
the costs I quote I just paid.
And the stats you should read are all in the earlier Bog topic of health.
Go find it I can't be bothered really.
where do you pop these numbers out of then?
get your virtual pudding out of your elephants ass.
Where do you get 16 % from.
Com'mon who loch vulture?
For starters How woulfd you know in america.how would you really measure who gets coverage.
how many of those "with " coverage cannot afford the co pays.
I almost had coverage,
85% of all costs.
Guess what that makes me not covered.
Can I afford 85% of 500,000.
NO
pathetic anyone claiming below 20% is in cloud coo-coo land.
That's like saying because 3m sell you a dust mask your safe to go to work in a welding shop.
Not true.
You want anti american here goes.
American businesses are killing their workers with dangerous levels of industrial poisons every day , excused by a few multinational industries that "CLAIM" to make products to keep workers safe from those poisons.
Just as you can pay Thousands a year to be legally and statistically registered as a person "WITH" healthcare .
Though you can never afford to go to a doc .
(We have plenty of examples here)
America will con anyone any time for any cost when they feel like it then tell you Sorry we accept NO responsibility.
ENRON AIG are examples of where america's self inflated ego gets all others twisted.
So you show me how only 16% are not covered.
Complain about this comment
244 stu
Once again in principle I find myself in agreement with you, but in practice the situation comes down to education and planning .... and the fact that many religious groups promote abstinence as a form of birth control and refuse to countenance any form of sex education, leaving many many young people woefully unprepared for the real world if they fall off the wagon.
--------------------------------------
Would that be PALIN's daughter?
Complain about this comment
Still you guys got your pride in america even if you have nothing else.
Watch the cough
Complain about this comment
Is that the only problem Americans have with the British system? Waiting lists?
Listen, it's true for certain operations there may be waiting lists, but over the last few years these have become fewer in number and smaller in length. And I'm sure A+E is busy on a Friday night, but that is just one aspect of the NHS, you also have GPs, walk-in centres, advice lines, community nurses - A+E is the place of last resort and a triage nurse will ensure that serious urgent cases get dealt with before the lager louts.
But the best thing of all is, if you are wealthy enough, or fortunate enough to have health insurance, and don't want to wait in a waiting list, then there is nothing to stop you going private anyway (like you would in America). As the stats show, many people do. The government even encourage it, because it reduces pressure on the NHS.
In Britain, you can have it quick, or you can have it free. The best of both worlds. It's a far better choice than quick or not at all.
It works out cheaper per citizen than health insurance, and waiting lists can be sidestepped by those with the means. No politician or party would ever dare call for the NHS to be disbanded, every major party is 100% committed to it. So I ask again, what else is supposedly so terrible about the British NHS?
Complain about this comment
Some years ago while attending an international convention in Montreal, one of my American clients felt sick at the restaurant while we were dining. I took him back to his hotel where he collapsed on his bed. Immediately I called for some paramedics to take a look at his condition, it was near midnight at the time.
They arrived a few minutes later and checked out his problem in his hotel room. The first thing my American client asked me was "How much is this going to cost?" I assured him that there would be no charge in Canada for this treatment. Apparently a few sips of red wine had some reaction to his chemotheraphy treatment, causing his relapse. By the next day he was his old self again.
I wonder if the tables were reversed and it was me collapsing in an American hotel, would it cost me for such immediate and timely medical help?
Complain about this comment
I've got Crohn's Disease and I've needed lots of hospitaltreatment, including several operations, out-patient specialist treatment, plus expensive medication.
I shudder to think what it must be like to live with this disease in the US.
That's why I hope that the US gets a comprehensive health care system that provides all necessary care for all its citizens.
Complain about this comment
Justin:
It is sad that many people in the United States; are without health insurance (medical insurance) coverage because they are no longer getting it via, their employers.
--Dennis Junior--
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS