The Third US Presidential Debate - Live
LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK: Greetings from Hofstra University.
2058: The talk in the food tent is all about McCain and what he has to do. My friends, the answer is clear: be quite astoundingly nice! Be charming. Be witty. Be informed. Be just a little condescending in order to keep that theme alive. Be viable in other words. Be worth a second look ...
2105: John McCain sets out his economic plan with energy - but then rejects the opportunity to ask a question of his opponent and goes on the attack in what looks like a planned - almost memorized - speil about Joe the plumber and how Obama's tax plans penalise him. Obama is smooth in response.
2112: McCain comes back with the decent attack - class warfare, "spread the wealth around" is the phrase Obama used. Sounds like socialism. Redistribution. It's a draw so far - McCain is snappy, Obama is professorial.
2114: Already this is a far better debate - on tax policy there is a genuine difference and they engage it with vigour, not soundbites from the campaign. Joe the plumber started out odd but turned out to be a good line of attack for McCain.
2117: Yippee! Schieffer actually interrupted Obama to point out that he had to answer the question - not sure he did answer it but it was a brave effort. He did it again with McCain. He's already earned his 1000000000 billion dollar salary.
2120: McCain now does answer the question - a hatchet to the budget. Pressed: he will eliminate billions by stopping support for ethenol. Makes little sense, but at least he came up with a list of projects for the chop.
2122: Big McCain line - Senator Obama, I am not President Bush! If you wanted to run against President Bush you should have run four years ago!
2124: Obama has got a well rehearsed answer ready this time for the attack line that he has never stood up to his party - he comes out with a convincing-sounding list.
2130: Great question from Schieffer on the toughness of the campaign message - McCain says he regrets the negative aspects of both campaigns. But then launches an attack on Obama accusing him of leading the way in all of it. Good line on Obama's change of heart on accepting public funding. Obama seems rather unwilling to hit back - this is a strategy plainly - he turns it back to the economic crisis.
2134: Interesting this - McCain is playing the role of the injured party. Obama has been palling around with terrorists so much that they have infected his adverts.
2139: Now Senator McCain attacks on Bill Ayers and Acorn (the group accused of forging voter registrations). Obama defends himself in great detail - too much detail?
2141: McCain understands the dangers of this line and ends by suggesting that actually he is really campaigning on the economy. Unconvincing when he has just taken the subject off the economy.
2145: John McCain's suggestion that Sarah Palin is "a role model to women" is true in some respects, but to most American women I suspect she is something less than that.
2147: Obama is polite about Palin - McCain is aggressive about Biden. Again, McCain seems harsher, but is this not what debating is all about?
2148: Hilarious - Shieffer calls climate change "climate control!" He thinks the subject is air conditioning...
2153: Obama has a populist line on trade agreements that damage Americans - and McCain on drilling for oil off the coast of the US. McCain refuses to be thrown off the free trade and makes a pitch for a new one with Columbia. Dangerous ground. Who is this attracting? This cannot be the right approach for McCain in the debate.
2156: Do Obama's laughs work? He has several times appeared in the wide shot openly amused at McCain's attacks.
2159: Obama is measured and steady. McCain is cross (sometimes) amused (sometimes) upset (sometimes) - he is less steady. He suggests physical fitness as (part of) the solution to the health crisis - it sounds cheap.
2205: Big win for Obama on the subject of health - McCain asks him what he wants to fine Joe the Plumber if he doesn't provide health insurance and Obama replies: zero (small business people will not be fined, it seems). To real-life Joes, I suspect that the McCain line works when he talks about the increased costs of Obama's plan and the choices available under McCain - but for a wider worried public it cannot be convincing.
2211: At one stage McCain made a disparaging comment about the "English" health system. Fact: English people spend roughly half what Americans do (per capita) on health. Are they half as healthy? Half as free? "English" health has its problems, but is it so ghastly?
2216: On abortion, Obama has a chance to explain himself and does so with some vigour - he will not convince those who call him a baby killer (as a woman told me he was last week) but he looks much more comfortable than he did weeks ago at Saddleback Church.
2229: So John McCain has been angry - but not over-the-top angry. He didn't take my advice to shock everyone with sunny cheeriness. So does his performance change anything ...
Not really, I suspect. Again his closing statement is his biggest strength... though his hands (in the shot in the close up) look old - very old.
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
Comments
When life is all about one "Joe the plumber", where does that leave all the rest of us?
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im liking you tonite John McCain but I cant stop thinking of sarah palin, and thats not good.
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McCain is fighting back, looking sure and not letting Obama call him Bush
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I wish they'd quit saying everything they've already said in the last 2 debates. Give us something new!
McCain seems a little testy.
Ha! good for Bob! he's attacking them on attacking each other! GO Bob GO!
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if you stop supporting ethanol john, farmers in iowa and all over middle states will lose their jobs.
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McCain's attack look desperate- this isn't helping him at all.
Now a question about their VP choice- McCain is sinking fast.
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did mccain just say that iraq is united?
iraq is not united, they had to build berlin-like walls in baghdad to seperate shiate from sunnis.
gimme a break.
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McCain is rambling, he needs to make his points clearer, its hard to follow. i think this is why he have not been connecting so much in these debates.
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We can disagree without being disagreeable."
Is that, I wonder, something a few people here can bring themselves to agree with?
(I am notattributing that quote from tonight's debate to either participant quite deliberately.)
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I am SO totally offended. Palin is maybe a role-model for those seeking ignorance and narcissism. She clearly isn't qualified for the position she's seeking, and she's willing to steamroller anybody who gets in her way.
Let's hope that's not the role-model I'm looking for.
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free trade is an issue where i strongly disagree with McCain, he negotiates a free trade deal with X Country, and americans lose their jobs and McCains counter to this is go back to school! how can ohio vote for anyone with this opinion?
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Why's the uncommitted voters polygraph on CNN so erratic?
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free trade is not a panacea for peace McCain. just because columbia is an ally dont mean that u send AMERICAN jobs to columbia. talk about selling out!
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It seems like every question McCain just attempts to attack/belittle Obama instead of telling exactly what he'll do - or attempt to do. He's annoying me to no end.
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McCain needs to spend less time talkin about obama, this is his opportunity but he is losing his temper too many times i suppose he is just passionate about the issue.
currently on health care mccain did not talk about his plan but instead bashed obama's.
sell ur ideas!
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JOe , ur rich congratulations?
*sigh*
mccain is hurting himself. cynical doesnt come off too well on camera.
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why are they talking to Joe, where is this JOe?
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Obviously the smart thing to do is to change your name to Joe The Plumber and pick up benefits all round.
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9, ish-ish.
You said you were leaving us forever. We already held the memorial posts. (You missed us, didn't you?)
I don't know what you have said yet. The moderators are watching the debate.
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I expect as we speak the campaign teams are scrambling to get in touch with 'Joe the plumber'.
This first one to reach him puts him on an Ohio advert: "I'm Joe the plumber, and I approve this message!"
Ah, you've gotta love American politics sometimes...
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The section on Roe v Wade makes me wonder if McCain has given up!
The staunch pro-life line he has adopted only plays with the base and I doubt it will win over many independents (and even fewer women!). I'd love to see the dial-groups on this, but am watching the BBC on line feed
Energising the base won't win the election for him.
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its funny how mccain bashes the english and canadian health system, but nobody in these countries are selling homes to see a doctor. he lost on the health care issue!
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"that was vouchers obama and im surprised u didnt pay attention to that example"
why so cynical? it makes you look like a Jerk.
mccain is coming off as a miser. 'spending more money isnt the answer'. nice point when talking about education for children.
McCain's personality and attitude is the biggest problem with the 3 debates.
angry- cynical-sarcastic-bad jokes.
mccain's biggest problem is mccain.
he started off well but he hurts himself when he loses focus midway through the debate and shows his bad/angry side.
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17. Moderate_Ovbserver
I totally agree. "Joe the plumber", "Joe six-pack", "Joe Schmoe from Cocomo" sheesh!
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I like what Obama said about parents. Our kids would be a lot smarter if we'd start teaching them instead of letting them veg in front of screens all day.
I'm a product of the public school system. The problem is that we just weren't disciplined. The most self-disciplined kids turned out to be genius sterling scholars.
And parents are key to promoting self-discipline in their children. If the parents have no self-discipline [just look at the amounts of debt they've racked up!!!] the children will not be disciplined.
Look at how the undisciplined adults in our country behave, with wild spending, out of control government, and living beyond our means. It spills over into the children, who have grown up watching their parents live undisciplined lives. They decide that they don't need to discipline in their studies and now look how uneducated our society is becoming.
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Does McCain think he is going to win voters over with his juvenile facial expressions? How many times did he smirk and/or stop just short of rolling his eyes...
junior high behavior, not that of the man I would like leading my country.
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John McCain talks about it being a no-brainer. Was this a reference to his own running mate?
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Joe 'The Plumber', meet Joe 'Six-Pack'.
What did they feed the Mac which made him blink that much ?
If that wasn't a clear win for Obama, I don't know what is.
Cain man looked like he was in a paint-by-numbers contest there.
___
Fritz Kraut
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In my opinion, John McCain did very well during the first half of the debate when the discussion centered on taxes, government spending, and the metaphorical "Joe the Plumber" which he cleverly used to imply Obama's economic policies are harmful to small businesses. I liked McCain's clear and unequivocal statement when he said "I am not President Bush". McCain lost the second half of the debate when he visibly lost his composure and focus on the topics that were being discussed. Obama did exceptionally well during the discussions on abortion, healthcare, and education and, as usual, he managed to stay calm and communicated clearly, succintly and with great eloquence.
I believe Obama won the debate, but not by a sufficient margin to convince undecided voters and influence the outcome of the election.
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The country is COLOMBIA not Columbia!!!
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#26 - mishylane
Are you sure? Between McC's smirking and palin's winking, they'll have Putin and Amdenasomethingjad quaking in their boots, I'm sure of it! lol
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25. regular_josephine I totally agree with you on parents and self-discipline, but the vast majority don't have it themselves so how can they instill it in their kids?
I am a HS math (or maths for you on the other side of the pond) teacher in a very small, high poverty rural district and I see a few conditions here that block kids from achieving, chief among them is that even my brightest students don't want to work to learn something. I don't understand it at all.
I think Obama clearly led on education, and on health care as well.
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Here's the difference: for most of the questions Obama had a plan while McCain had a temper. I know who I would rather have as President.
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Is Joe-The-Plumber Joe-Six-Pack's brother ?
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I could care less about McCain "fighting back" and scoring minor points with his imaginary friend "Joe the Plumber." I found that revisited reference patronizing and disingenuous. McCain's health plan is a hoax at best and a disaster all the way. I have ZERO health coverage after losing former state-program funding due to REPUBLICAN PARTY cutbacks thanks to Bush & to my state Minnesota's dreadful Governor [and McCain VP contender] Tim Pawlenty. (He's the guy who cutback on bridge inspections with the result of our city's deadly major bridge collapse this past year, seen by the entire world.) All McCain's sparing was snarky and pettily personalized. McCain's slogans and phrases resound with decades-old Republican cliches. He is USELESS on a good day, and RIDICULOUS most of the time. And I was insulted by his telling me that Sarah Palin is a role model for me - WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER!
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#22. moderate_observer: "its funny how mccain bashes the english and canadian health system, but nobody in these countries are selling homes to see a doctor. he lost on the health care issue!"
I don't know about Canada, but I can tell you that, in Britain, the elderly, when their primary need is a health need, are more-often than-not required to sell their homes to pay for long-term care. The Health Service Ombudsman has issued a number of reports about this very issue, a subject about which I am particularly familiar. Both Mrs Thatcher and Tony Blair have made it far more difficult to obtain the funding to which British residents have a right; in this respect the "golden years" in Britain are almost equally as tarnished as in the USA.
British-ish; good to see you back!
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if anyone is wondering why my focus was on mccain the whole night, its because i find obama to be very boring, when he talks, its like being in a classroom.
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19 allmymarbles wrote:
ish-ish.
You said you were leaving us forever. We already held the memorial posts. (You missed us, didn't you?)
I don't know what you have said yet.
That's 'cos I haven't said anything, 'cept hold out a hope. Popped in out of curiosity, and 'cos I was suffering a bit of fun deprivation.
BBC Radio 5 has informed me that 'Joe' (who I thought was mythical, like 'Sid') is actually a real person. Even a real plumber. Name of 'Wirtzenbacker'? (Query because I only heard it, have to make a guess at the spelling.)
Possibly quite soon to be an ex-plumber, poor man, as he's taken his phone off the hook, presumably because every news organisation and magazine is phoning about the debate, not about blocked u-bends . . .
I do hope whichever candidate os elected will be able to solve at least that little potential unemployment problem.
But the White House doesn't have a terribly good reputation as far as employing plumbers is concerned, does it?
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As I sat in my living room in California watching the last presidential debate, John McCain came up with the name Joe the plumber and the arguments about him that followed; I was somewhat confused as I remembered also Joe six pack which was Sarah Palin's talking point during the only vice presidential debate few weeks ago. So; for clarification case, can anyone tell me while the republicans have become so fund of the name "Joe"?
Finally, McCain has finally lost the election and I look forward to be at Obama's inauguration ceremony come January 20, 2009.
Go Obama!
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What's a 'motor voter'? You have drive-in polling booths over there?
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McCain started a myth tonight and I think it needs serious questioning.
After Obama had brought the word 'autism' into the debate, McCain picked it up and claimed that this was something that Sarah Palin is an expert in.
She is not, and I don't think she has ever claimed to be. She says that special needs would be her interest.
Being the mother of a six month old Down's syndrome baby (and at the same time running for VP of the USA) does NOT make you an expert on autism.
John McCain displays his ignorance by this cheap, simplistic, opportunist remark.
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Does anybody with any clout in the BBC read these comments?
If I thought that anyone in management might read them and take notice of them, rather than them being presented as an example of "community engagement", I'd have some detailed comment about Justin Webb's facile coverage of the debate.
Implications that Webb has any worthwhile advice for McCain, or that how old McCain's hands look has much to do with the substance of his campaign, is facile.
If I was American I'd vote for Obama - and this debate didn't change that - but this kind of coverage feels utterly vapid.
Hopefully, as I believe they will, Americans will vote on something more substantial.
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#36 david cunard. i think lately we have more politicians in canada and britain who are more conservative and has tried to cut costs, but cutting care for the elderly is dispicable. in canada i know the cost of drugs is the main problem as well as waiting times for care.
ive heard good things about the french system, its more of a two teir system.
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IMHO, McCain's sneer and smarminess has cost him this election. It's the equal of Nixon's beard shadow in 1960.
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I thought that the debate was about domestic affairs. Are we not at the start of the biggest ecenomic crisis in 75 years. Apparently neither one of them has heard.
How come they got an old codger to ask the questions. Maybe it was to make John look young.
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34/35:
See the end of my post 38.
I gather that Joe W (have to call him that until I read the name somewhere instead of only hearing it) attended an Obama rally and asked a question about how his tax plans would affect him starting up a new business.
(He might now be thinking of adopting another occupation entirely, of course. Though he'll certainly have gained an awful lot of dollars' worth of free publicity for his new business now. Hmm. And thereby earn more than 250,000 and therefore pay more taxes, and . . .oh, consequences, consequences!)
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What did you say at the start of this post, Justin ?
Something about McCain would have to be incredibly nice, charming and witty.
Sorry but he failed on all counts there.
Exhausted though he must be at this stage of the campaign, he did not come over as a man who wanted to be nice. He came over as though he wanted to be nasty - very nasty.
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the impression i got from the candidates tonite is this.
Mccain's closing point says it all. This is just another notch on his resume. he is from a strong line of familes who have served the country proudly so he deserves this promotion because of his long service. (that sounds like someone who is used to working in a government job).
he said very little about the voter and what he would do for the voter. His biggest argument was trust me im a proud patriot.
Obama closed by mainly stating what he would offer to the american people, and he is running for change because he sees the need.
The dfference is the sense of entitlement that both men hold.
Mccain believes he is entitled to this new position in government because he is an 'american hero'.
Obama, never really expected much from this campaign , 2 years ago he said he would not run. and i think he is surprised he has made this much progress, so his argument is I have something to offer thats why I am running. not because I am entitled for my long service to the country.
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By the way when did Mcain have a rally with "10,15 or 20,000 people attending"? Must be confused.
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Out of the 3 debates oven chips won this one if he won any... But I can't see it'll make that much difference... His main problem is Palin, which if he's any sense he'll keep under wraps for the next 3 weeks...
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Schieffer had to DRAG a repudiation of Rep. Lewis's race-baiting out of BHO, which is very very telling.
Free trade--BHO dancing...he publicly declared he would unilaterally negate NAFTA, and had his people assure the Canadians he didn't mean a word of it.
McCain does really well to make people pay attention to BHO's actual words, because BHO constantly parses words.
BHO smiles that condescending smile every time McCain brings up a painful subject--gives the effect of that he's thinking 'That silly old man...' It does not help his cause at all.
Health insurance...McCain taking Obama on over the single-payer issue, and makes BHO back-pedal dramatically. John is smiling, I think he's caught the Barack in a lie.
5K tax credit per household can buy a LOT of health insurance in these parts, more than we pay in our mid 50's with children covered. And, if multiple providers are competing for my dollars, what happens to price of insurance?
Anybody paying 12K, like BHO claims they are, is being ripped off.
When John talks to Joe the Plumber, he becomes passionate.
Obama lectures.
Who connects with Joe the Plumber?
****
Perhaps the most crucial question of the night.
Roe v Wade and court appointments.
McCain seeks qualified judges, not litmus test--certain to anger the hard right.
He makes an interesting statement--elections matter, e.g., the elected President should be given latitude. Certain to anger ideologues on both sides.
He thinks abortion question should be left to states, which would put the debate where it belongs, in state legislatures and referenda, where the left loses.
BHO supports Roe v Wade, unqualified, and does not wish issue to be left to states, because he knows the left loses at that level.
And then he tries to change the subject to a equal pay suit...
McCain goes after BHO on the live birth issue, and BHO smiles that smile again.
He has BHO dancing and lying about his record--footage for commercials upcoming.
BHO is very vulnerable on this issue--the heart of his moral compass, allowing live children born to botched abortions to die untreated. It's a black-letter record of votes from which he cannot run.
He can't run from his past record, and his present allies.
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Am I missing something or did Sen McCain say the Gov Palin has the world's best understanding of special needs children, because she has a special needs baby?
Can she still see Russia from there?
She has no concept of what being the mother of a special needs child is. Hers is still a baby.
And John, saying this straight-faced while looking and sounding humbled by her pain and suffering is ridiculous in the extreme. I hope others, especially in the special needs community take note of this.
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McCain's constant references to Palin's autism expertise are as embarrassing as his inability to differentiate between the shia and sunni Muslim sects (on his visit to Iraq not during the debate). Just a little FYI-Mr. McCain, autism and Down's Syndrome are not the same condition and Iran does not support its enemy Alqaeda. How can anyone support such a confused and ignorant man?
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I don't trust McCain as far as I can throw him. His tax plans don't add up, and his hatchet spending cuts are naive and unrealistic.
Obama's economic policies are very sound, endorsed by The Economist no less, and he will make a great president.
He is consistent, steady and businesslike and will represent our country well. McCain is immature and petty. And as for Palin......I can only ask, What was he thinking???
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oh..justin is blogging live..only just come up on a refresh.....oh well?....my posts are in wrong place...doh!
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re: "Joe the Plumber" - he must be "Joe Six-Pack's" sober brother! Tough for Plumber Joe to have a lush of a brother who's got a thing for Sarah Palin. No wonder "Joe the Plumber" is worried!!!
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ahh welcome joe the plummmer we were wondering who u were :)
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british-ish, welcome back! I noticed that the bank
was accumulating deposits, but now that you're back
I'm sure that the trend shall reverse.
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McCain is rambling...he seems to be desperate. After each attack statement he takes pains to run down his list of talking points; economy, taxes, reform...autism?
I don't wish to appear unsympathetic but, when did autism become the #1 problem in the country?
You've just witnessed the last attempt of a desperate man to win the presidency.
Obama played it safe, sure. Particularly when Robert Ayers came up - very smooth.
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"does his performance change anything ... Not really, I suspect," Justin wrote.
Having now heard several partisan Americans from both sides, somehow I suspect neither candidate's words tonight will really change anything.
(Except for about 15 minutes of Joe W's life--who comes from Toledo Ohio, the BBC World Service now informs me .and, one way or another, that of a number of mooses. Meeses. Moce. Whatever.)
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why does a politician bring up specifics and details like "Joe the Plumber"...when most voters want to know the issues and policies?...very weak.
I think this is one of the main differences between US and UK politicians....if a UK politician spoke about details to the extent of Joe the Plumber, s/he would be laughed at for not answer questions about policies...save for the tabloids. Hence UK politicians never, in general, speak about details...they know it is dangerous territory!
The personal connection appears to be very important to the US politician....but what does it actually say. I think tonight is evidence of this.
Obama appeared to desperate to try and not to get dragged down in specifics and pointless details about Joe the Plumber, but it became clear he had to several times just to "connect". But he did at least try to keep on tract about policies overall, whereas McC didn't....just "my friends" and "Americans are hurting"....
Why did he spend so much time on Ayers, how does that help the Joe the Plumber???.....nuff said.
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Obama was once again clear, concise and on message. The notion McCain keeps pushing that you don't know what you are getting with Obama, and that he is somehow dangerous and cannot be trusted is ludicrous. Obama easily dismissed the charges McCain seems to think that America needs answering. In contrast, nobody can dispute that McCain comes off in these debates as angry and erratic, two traits he absolutely shares with Bush. We don't need another angry, impulsive Republican running the country after the one we've had for 8 years. I'll take the more measured, thoughtful candidate to solve our problems. Its Obama by a country mile in 3 weeks.
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They both worked really hard for Joe's vote, didn't they?
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Sarah 'say it ain't so Joe the plumber lost his six pack' Palin is the only one keeping this thing going for me. Annoying voice, facile attacks and the barely under control hubby. If she goes on much longer she will have alienated every last voter. The rest of us will be tossing ourselves off the nearest crumbling bridge in desperation.
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Justin at 2211: McCain made a disparaging comment about the "English" health system. Fact: English people spend roughly half what Americans do (per capita) on health. Are they half as healthy? Half as free? "English" health has its problems, but is it so ghastly?"
Since you are no longer a resident of the United Kingdom, possibly you did not realise that you are no longer covered by the NHS. Perhaps the BBC has some special health plan for their employees abroad, but during Tony Blair's time, the rules for ex-pats changed. Also, see my comment at #36.
#38. british-ish: "But the White House doesn't have a terribly good reputation as far as employing plumbers is concerned, does it?" Very droll!
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Fellow bloggers,
We must come back to the biggest issue at hand.
The dark blue knit dress looked terrific. Clinging but not sordid, sexy but not sordid.
Michelle was/is HOT!
Filthy Sam
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I really don't understand the constant "he doesn't have enough experience" ranting...
When i go for a job, there is a list of criteria to satisfy to even be considered "experienced" enough for the position. Ok, so why not do this for the US presidency, since everyone is harping on about it....then you can make any prospective US candidate take this "test".
ok, what would the criteria be, previous world power control, hmmm...ok, any dictator can apply, what about good proven economic polices for your country, hmmm...china has 10%+ growth, or Venuzula 8%, good health care for your citizens, well, Cubans do very well....
So, unless one is a communist dictator where is one going to get such experience????
No one is "qualified" to do the job, save for an ex-president!. Bush has clearly shown that he is not qualified, yet he has been voted in twice!!....so what does experience for "the job" mean.
So much for in American you can achieve anything, great :)
...yeah, unless you want to become president then everyone will tell you your not qualified!!....go figure.
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Ho-hum. I refer readers to the upcoming announcements from Europe, and particularly Sarkozy's statement about the 'reform' and 'revamping of, er, well, capitalism.
Now I wonder what the newly elected leader will have to say about that after the proposed G8+ meeting expected after the presidential election? Not a lot?
I only woke up in time to listen to the last half of the debate, but I don't think that fairly important upcoming issue was really addressed by either, was it?
(While, by the way, a Russia/Georgia situation is developing between Thailand and Cambodia. I heard a lot about Colombia. . .
I thought cocaine importation was a prime example of US 'free trade' with Colombia. I did think that was a peculiar reference.
But perhaps I didn't quite grasp the point he was trying to make.)
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65 D_C
what do you mean, the rules for expats has changed, with regards to the NHS?
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#40. british-ish: "What's a 'motor voter'? You have drive-in polling booths over there?"
No, it's a method of registering voters when they apply for or renew a driving license - see The National Voter Registration Act for more information.
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If McC thinks Obama should have run in 2004, why didn't McC run before 2008 too??...ugh, pointless comments from McC again...
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
kecsmar (#71), McCain ran in 2000.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The body language said it all. Obama was cool and collected while the geezer was sneering, distracted, upset, confused.
Which one looks more like the President you ask?
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68: Sorry. Columbia.
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I am quite confused by McCain's references to autism and Sara Palin. Is this in reference to her own baby Trig, who has Down Syndrome, not autism? Does she have a connection with autism or a family member with autism that has not been publicized, or did John McCain actually confuse the two developmental disorders in relation to his own running mate? That would be rather embarrassing.
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Game, set, match, Obama!
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A few small points:
For those who still claim to be undecided, they must either refuse to educate themselves, refuse to allow themselves to be educated, or they're just too dumb to vote.
What I will remember most about this particular debate will be the extraordinary discipline Obama exhibited when he would make a statement, listen to McCain's complete distortions, and then calmly respond with clarification. That's a skill needed in international diplomacy.
McCain is a very small man and tonight he truly showed how unqualified he is to lead this nation. He is a true politician; he'll say absolutely anything to get elected. He may have gotten in more information this time, however, I think, like Palin, he was well coached. They are cut from the same cloth. Descriptors like honorable and gentlemanly do not apply. They may have once, but not now and now is what counts.
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Further to Justin's comments about the NHS, which incidentally is different in England and Wales to that in Scotland: "English" health has its problems, but is it so ghastly? he might care to read this report from the Healthcare Commission. Not quite as perfect as Justin would have his readers believe.
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Before the debate Intrade had McCain at a little more than 18. Now he is down to a little more than 16. Did he "lose" the debate, or is the lower figure due to stock markets plummeting in the Far East?
Intrade favors Obama heavily in Ohio, Florida, North Carolina and, by closer odds, in South Carolina. The last sounds unlikely, but who knows....
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#69. kecsmare: "what do you mean, the rules for expats has changed, with regards to the NHS?"
Those Britons who are resident outside of the United Kingdom are no longer eligible for free health care at the point of need. They are treated just like any foreigner, regardless of whether they paid National Insurance for years or income tax (the NHS is funded largely from general taxation; NI pays for the state pension.) So, if like Justin and myself, you live abroad, sunny Spain for example, you're no longer covered.
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I have been feeling very irritable. I fell off a ladder and I have been wearing what feels like a Denver Boot on my foot. Please forgive me if I am cranky.
In my opinion,this debate was what should have been happening since we started the debates.
Who won? At this point a better question might be: Who Cares?
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the problem with all pthe current repub. candidates is that they try to emulate ronald raegan a bit too much. the joe the plumber thing would have been done well by a ronald raegan so thats why they try to do it. the story telling was also someting raegan did well. These candidates need to find their own identity instead of trying to be a carbon of previous leaders. it comes off as fake.
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73 G_A_H
Oh yeah, forgot about that one, doh!
Doesn't explain why he didn't run in 2004 though, as the corollary to his remark to Obama..!
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Please note: Colombia (the country, not the University) is spelled with an "o". In other words, Colombia - not Columbia. Gracias.
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80 D_C
I dont think Justin is saying it is perfect. Neither does the link you provided. But, once one is eventually seen too, it is paid for by taxes, so one doesn't part with any money when needed. Regardless of the economies health. I think Justin's comment is valid, NHS is not perfect, but much better than what currently exists in the US for "joe the plumber"...
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for #30..ColOMbia is not the way USA'ers are taught to say the name of this country. We spell "Brasil" BraZil" also. Blame our educational system....
for #40: Not drive thru voting. We can register to vote when we get or update our driver's liscences, or anytime we visit the Dept of Motor Vehicles...just makes it easier and helps the procrastinators. Y'know those who'll "do it tomorrow."
Clearing up: Obama said he was against late term/partial birth abortions, was for "choice" not "pro abortion," as no one is, believing with education we could reduce unwanted pregnancies, and since it was already the law and part of a doctor's oath to always work to save lives, there needn't be a new gov't intervention about fetuses/babies who survived a failed abortion attempt.
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justin .. again the probama bias.. why on earth didnt u mention mccains " im not president bush" statement.. that was a winner ...sup
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It was pretty much average. Obam knew he was leading, and didn't take too many risks. McCain knew he had to win, and was on full offense. In the end though, it looked like a tie to me. Not sure if this debate will cause too many people to change their minds.
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82 D_C
Hmmm interesting, do you have a link for this?
I too am an expat...and I also have several friends who are Doctors, most in the NHS. Non have mentioned this to me before...i also haven't encountered this problem, being "johnny foreigner".
I have friends living overseas for many years too and going back to the UK for operations etc...they haven't been "penalised" either..
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To Britishish
I want to thank you for the link you gave several days ago to the article by Guy Browning. I sent it off to family and friends.
My brother-in-law loved the article. He is a retired bank manager and still works a few days each month as a teller in that same bank because, as he says: "this is where I started and I like to keep my hands in the till."
About those Hedge Fund people:
I could really use some help. We have a serious labor shortage here. I need people to pick olives. I need planters for the winter crops but what I really need are people to shovel manure. I feed breakfast and dinner and we pay a wage that is equal to the person's skill. Could these Hedge Fund people manage any of this?
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69:
I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think you become ineligible for free NHS treatment if you live abroad (excluding EU countries, which have reciprocal agreements) for either more than 3 months or 6 months of the year. (I couldn't find an official source to confirm which, though.)
Anyone, however, will get free emergency treatment even if they've only been in the country for ten minutes.
In fact, under the EU reciprocal arrangements you still have to pay up front for things like a consultation with a doctor, or a medicine, but you get it re-imbursed in the country.
(I had to do that in Belgium last year, after I left a drug I need at home by mistake. It can be a bit complicated finding out how to do it though. Especially when the instructions on how foreigners find where you need to send all the receipts to are in Flemish . . . Bit expensive, too: had to pay the doctor 40 Euros in cash on the spot. Took a chunk out of my holiday money, that did.)
If you need non-emergency treatment while in Britain, as far as I know, you get it anyway, and you (or your health insurance company) get the bill afterwards.
Sometimes they just don't bother: I had to take a young French lad to the local emergency department last year who didn't have an EU 'medical card' and they all just said 'Oh, don't worry about that. Not important.'
if you have a home here, so you have a UK address, I doubt if you'd be questioned unless you arrived in a chauffeur-driven Roller.
A lot of things in Britain just work on trust, really: you're trusted to be honest. (Like with registering to vote!) Though I do seem to have to quote my NI number more these days. Funny that; it's one of the very few numbers I can always remember.
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As a Brit living in the US I would like to say that I have a more impartial view than most of my friends over here who are citizens of the US and affiliated with either party.
Having participated in many debates myself during my life, I echo the majority of the above comments in saying that Barack Obama was the clear victor from the three debates for the following reasons (in order of importance).
1) BO answered the questions more directly. He did not start rambling about subjects unrelated to the questions asked by the moderators. JM seemed to do this on many occasions. This was especially evident in todays debate.
2) BO was far more eloquent and measured in his answers than JM, who seemed to lack composure and coherence in his answers.
3) BO was far more gracious towards his opponent during the debates, giving credit to JM where it was deserved. JM came across as an angry, irritable war monger who was trying to belittle Obama at every opportunity.
4) BO maintained far better body language than JM, who often seemed uncomfortable in his own body and with his gesturing. This might of course have something to do with his Vietnam war injuries, which is regrettable and not something to laugh at. This aspect of televised debating is often surprisingly overlooked, but nevertheless extremely important due the split screen coverage provided on most news stations in America. Viewers are able to watch both candidates throughout the whole debate. It is worth noting that 90% of communication is non-verbal. To me, it was absolutely clear who had the greater conviction in what he were saying through his bodylanguage - Barack Obama.
5) Barack was able to support almost all of his assertions with details or statistics that seemed plausible. JM was unable to do this with as much success as Obama.
There are other reasons why I though Barack Obama won the debate, but these are the main ones.
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#76. british-ish: "68: Sorry. Columbia."
Perhaps I'm missing something witty? Colombia is the South American nation; Columbia is, among other things, a record label and the 'C' in the original CBS - Columbia Broadcasting System. So you were correct the first time.
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76/86. Sorry. Again. Colombia. Why didn't he say Peru or Bolivia. One I can spell?
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94 Brit..
Oddly enough i too can remember my NI number. I think having "an address" in the UK, no matter who own the domicile, to quote usually helps too. My driving licence for example, still has my old address....
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#93, aquarigal, I think that you would be disappointed
in the quality of the workforce available as hedge
funds implode.
They are used to shovelling green stuff, not brown
stuff, and the skills are not transferable. Good gardening
requires spreading brown stuff around, and these
hedge fund managers are used to taking green
stuff, and then leaving behind piles of brown stuff
that are miles high.
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For a man that stated blandly just before the financial turmoil took the globe into a tailspin that the *fundamentals* of the US economy are sound, I thought Sen McCains team honed his predicted answer segments well tonight.
He did better than previously which was requirement No 1 albeit requirement No 2, to actually change and win independent voter minds...... I just don't see it, although the party faithful, in the bag already, have a level of confidence restored?
Key aspects for me were these. i) That given the golden opportunity to flag the shortfalls of Gov Palin international stateswoman experience in the Q over VP suitability, Sen Obama carefully avoided this and kept to Joe Bidens profile. ii) The continuing calmness and assuredness of Sen Obama throughout. iii) The Sen McCain body language. Someone forgot to coach him on the mega importance of this side of the proceedings and he scored very poorly in this respect.
Bill
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Joe the plumber heard it all:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-speaks-it_n_135065.html
>>John McCain's suggestion that Sarah Palin is "a role model to women" is true in some respects>>
In what respects?
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#94. british-ish wrote: "I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think you become ineligible for free NHS treatment if you live abroad (excluding EU countries, which have reciprocal agreements) for either more than 3 months or 6 months of the year."
Correct - and these articles here and [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] describe the problems. As both Justin and I are domiciled in the USA for more than nine months of the year, we'd be ineligible for free care at the point of need. Unless, of course, we returned to live in the UK permanently. And who would do that - the weather on the West (Pacific) Coast is rather better!
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93, aquarizonagal wrote:
Shouldn't think they'd be much cop at the picking and planting, but they should be able to get the . . .er . . .(beware moderators!) manure shovelling over with amazingly quickly :-) Lots of practice.
(What a shame we can't be more alliterative. Sigh. Can't think what's wrong with the last post of mine they've blocked. It was a joke. Well, I thought so. Sigh.)
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No. 83 Ms. Aqua
Please do take care. You are highly valued among your friends here and swinging around on ladders would take you away from us. Purely selfish, i know.
i hope they gave you happy meds to ease your pain.
b
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Justin, the Shieffer comment on calling climate change "climate controll" was, it seemed to me, an honest slip of the tung!! He, and the candidates knew what he ment, which is why if you remember correctly, (I suspect) McCain corrected him!! Lighten up!
As regards the shockingly awfull and utterly desparigingly comments McCain made about the "English" health care system, I think this was a golden opertunity for Obama to pounce on him like he'd never pounced before!! He could've pointed out that if the "english" health care system is what he fears the most being adopted in America, that "England" isn't doing too badly for itself and that it hasn't done too badly for itself for 60 years since the NHS's inception. And for good measure, I think it would've been lovely if Obama were to try and guilt and shame McCain into backing off his plan a bit by saying something to the affect of "Well at least the English care about their fello man! Where as it seems Republicans only care about me myself and I!!" O well, there's always next election...
But how dare McCain say that!! I tell you, if he expects to have a "close and unique" relationship with the UK as he likes to think we have now, he's going to get a rude wake up call if he wins the presidency once the people in Britain get wind of this "comment" that's all I have to say!!
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And we never got your conclusion of the debate and Shieffer's moderation. Did it meet your standards?
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Obama in my humble opinion, held his ground. McCain wasn't strong enough in his performance to convince the undecided.
Obama did well to respond directly to the ridiculous allegations of palling around with terrorists. I wonder if the Palin will change her tune now or continue? Obama could have taken it further by pointing out that Democrat negative ads were not targeting McCain as a person. There is a difference between negative ads on the platform, campaign or voting record. The difference is the GOP doesn't understand where that line is.
McCain really blew it on healthcare. As a Canadian who lived in the Uk for several years I can say that I didn't have any problems with the healthcare system in both of these countries.
Interesting how he talks about 'choice' for healthcare and government dictating how people receive healthcare but at the same time is willing to have the government through the supreme court dictate reproductive choices for women. Interesting contradiction.
Furthermore, McCain didn't seem to be able to reconcile the supreme court nomination issue, so not on ideological grounds but couldn't see himself supporting anyone who would overturn Roe v Wade. Does that mean that anyone who supported Roe v Wade isn't qualifed and how is that not ideology?
McCain did the best who could on the VP question - I mean what could he say about such a unqualified, ill chosen candidate that shameless panders to the traditional GOP base. A role model for women? You've got to be kidding. I'd certainly never follow her example and I HAVE read the Bush doctrine. Proud of her? Apparently he is not aware of the slaying she is getting even in the mainstream US Media.
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I think the reference to "Joe the Plumber" has something to do with Mccains last visit to his urologist. Surprised he let it slip out with all the other worries about his health.
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As to who "won" the debate, I personally don't give a damn. But by tomorrow I expect the vote will be in for Obama. This can be explained by there being more Democrats than Republicans, and each group voting for its presidential preference.
I am glad this nonsense is over. I caught a little bit of it on replay and it was as insequential as the other two.
I look forward to Obama's election and will be celebrating, en famille, the end of stupid wars (with champagne, of course). Whoops! Did I sound elitist? If celebrating intelligence, knowledge, and education is elitest, then that is exactly what I am.
Bye bye Sarah Palin. Bye bye Joe Lieberman.
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I have only this to say. Eight years ago my life was a lot more positive than it is today.
Can any one president change this? The answer is NO! Do I want more of the same equal McCain? The answer is also NO! Maybe Obama can give us a chance at something better.
We are fighting two wars that we really can not win. Our economy is in ruins because we have no concept of personal fiscal responsibility. Let us stop blaming it on someone else. Everyone, just STOP! Look at our own lives and how we can each make a change for a more positive future.
Or the stronger ones can eat the weaker ones and it will be Soylent Green for some of us.
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To#99Gunsandreligion
Thanks for your in put. I was only half joking.
We are in some trouble here. We really do need some skilled labor. We can hold on for a while longer and we are better off than most since we own our land but it is hard where we are.
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When McC says "facts area facts..and records are know"...why does he then ask afterwards, for disclosure of said facts from someone else??..if he has said facts and knows all about them....just like his claim of, i know where Bin Laden is,...why doesn't he provide said information??
Am I missing something here..???
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96: David_Cunard
Perhaps I'm missing something witty?
No. Not this time anyway. It's just I caught sight of a post saying it was the other one. Whichever that was. Then I remembered Colombia the city, thought I'd got it wrong, and now I'm totally confused, and I just give up.
I've found out how to spell Joe 'The Plumber' Wurzelbacher, though since that's through Kevin Connolly, who appears to think McCain mentioned Peru instead of that other country, I'm not so sure about that either.
(And I'm going away for a while. I can't be bothered with second-guessing the moderation today. Posts, not just mine I suspect, are being 'refered' without any rhyme or reason.)
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I'm going to have to sign off, I have an early meeting
tomorrow.
aquarigal: no more ladders, please! We'll find an out
of work insurance executive to change ceiling light
bulbs, if that's what you need.
british-ish: glad to see you back. Since you're half
Italian, I'm looking forward to your comments on
British food at some point.
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To#104 Ladybobbiebea
That is very kind. I climb on a ladder because I do not want my dear one to do that any more. I was careless. I will be more careful.
We do have a serious labor shortage here due to this hysteria over immigration. So many of our dear good people are gone.
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#69. and #92. kecsmar: "Do you have a link for this?"
I did find something more authoritative at the Department of Health; click on Overseas visitors and follow the pages.
I think re-registering would be the hardest part, especially if you have no fixed address in the UK. I once had a difficult time signing up for mail redirection with the Post Office and was required to produce 'proof of residence' in the form of a utility bill; a doctor or hospital could prove more frustrating. Those coming to the US from the UK/Europe do need to have some kind of paid-up health insurance; I do not think the NHS covers Britons when abroad.
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This whole "Joe the Plumber" support is actually a devillishly clever last ditch attempt by the GOP to appeal to the female vote.
Let's face it, guys, men hate plumbers. They come into our homes armed with only a wrench and some washers, do their best to humiliate us in front of our women with snide comments about our own attempts to solve the problem, then hit us with an outrageous bill.
Now that's really dirty politicking!
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58, gunsandreligion:
i came up with what I thought was quite a neat financial plan for you, far superior to anything either candidate came up with tonight for Joe The Plumber in my post 74, but it got sort of moderated away.
I'm going to disappear for a bit. If I can't get a little satire about bankers past them, or call a spade a shovel, as it were, I might as well pack it in for the day.
I'm not going to spend ages sub-editing my own posts to suit some sort of criteria I don't know about, nor do I want to wait around until the team changes to one with either a higher IQ or more of a sense of humour.
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#113. british-ish: "Posts, not just mine I suspect, are being 'refered' without any rhyme or reason." One of mine at #102 was removed, principally (I think) because a link (which I have now removed) was considered "commercial". This is what I had written, minus the offending link.
#94. british-ish wrote: "I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think you become ineligible for free NHS treatment if you live abroad (excluding EU countries, which have reciprocal agreements) for either more than 3 months or 6 months of the year."
Correct - the article here describes the problems. As both Justin and I are domiciled in the USA for more than nine months of the year, we'd be ineligible for free care at the point of need. Unless, of course, we returned to live in the UK permanently. And who would do that - the weather on the West (Pacific) Coast is rather better!
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114, gunsandreligion wrote:
"british-ish: glad to see you back. Since you're half
Italian, I'm looking forward to your comments on
British food at some point."
Oh dear, sorry to disappoint you, then. There isn't any. It's all foreign. Fortunately.
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To#103Britishish
I think I got your message. Our moderators, or as I call them THE POWERS THAT BE, do sometimes make it difficult to use the exact words one would like to use.
I would still like a chance to employ those Hedge Fund people. If their meals and wages were dependent on their level of service they might become truly motivated.
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#117 David_de_long
Guess you have a lot of experience with plumbers by now.
#114 gunsandreligion
One word for british food : BLAND
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To#118Britishish
Sorry you are leaving. I really enjoy your humor and BOO to the moderators for discouraging your posts.
I will go also.
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Brilliant account, thank you.
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116 and 119
I had a good look, thanks. As always the devil is in the detail:
"..a person, or the spouse or child of a person, who has at any time had not less than ten years continuous residence in the United Kingdom.."
also
"..who is in receipt of any pension or other benefit under a Personal Injuries Scheme.."
and
"...who has at any time had not less than ten years continuous residence in the United Kingdom.."
plus
"...a national of a member State, or a refugee or a stateless person, or a member of the family of any of them, resident in each case in the territory of a member State.."
So, if you are British, lived there for more than 10 straight years, or have parents in the UK or living in an accepted "member state" or have a pension, charges do not apply!
So it seems.... :))
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#122. paul939: "One word for british food : BLAND"
Don't you believe it! Maybe years and years ago, but the UK has undergone a foodie revolution. It has Michelin-starred restaurants and pubs, and even the smallest town has a decent place to eat; ask British-ish. I was back there in August and ate extremely well, if rather expensively - but then for those of us who live in the US, visiting Britain is expensive these days - hotels and restaurants in particular. 17.5% tax (VAT) included is one reason.
On my very first visit to New York (in the last century!) I asked a friend who had previously visited what the food was like, and the reply was identical to yours - BLAND.
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123:
Very kind. I'll see if I can slip this one by before I go, since there's no humour or satire in it at all.
I am always surprised that no-one appears to comment on Obama's relative lack of fluency when he is speaking in this kind of debate compared to his rally speeches.
Even when he is delivering what is fundamentally a prepared answer, there are a lot of 'er's', pauses, and the odd second or two while he appears to be searching for a word or phrase. Even when the phrase that comes out is one I find thoroughly predictable because it's been used umpteen times before.
McCain, it seems to me, is somewhat more fluent, despite his rather patronising tone; but not that much more considering he has (presumably) 20 years more experience of public speaking.
Have expectations of the quality of public speaking of a president diminished so much as a result of Bushisms (uttered by both junior and senior)?
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#125. kecsmar: "I had a good look, thanks. As always the devil is in the detail"
Somewhere in all that boilerplate is the sentence
"Those who are not ordinarily resident (including British citizens who have paid National Insurance contributions in the past) are liable to charges for services other than that given in Accident and Emergency departments"
As british-ish comments, you may be able to get treatment more easily, but I wouldn't gamble on it. If you're living out of the UK, to clarify the information, you might want to call the local British Consulate General or British Embassy if its nearer. Don't take anything for granted. A lot has changed in the UK!
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#27.british-ish: "I am always surprised that no-one appears to comment on Obama's relative lack of fluency when he is speaking in this kind of debate compared to his rally speeches.
Even when he is delivering what is fundamentally a prepared answer, there are a lot of 'er's', pauses, and the odd second or two . . . "
Spot on; it was more noticeable in the debates he had with Hillary Clinton. She was the more fluid, but when giving a speech, with an AutoCue/TelePrompTer, Obama could sound brilliant. Mrs Clinton never has mastered that and always sounded stilted. Ronald Reagan had a similar problem, not as pronounced. Having a great mastery of cue cards or other aids, it was not for nothing that he was called "The Great Communicator". Of course, he had been a performer all his professional life and continued to be so while in office. Whatever one may think of his politics, he was very effective - and often persuasive.
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128 D_C
That was my concern a bit too. But isn't there a difference between a British Citizen and a British national?
My parents becomes British citizens, but they are not British nationals..?
I did find this though:
""overseas visitor" means a person not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom;.."
But the caveats i noted above do still apply.
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The fifteen minutes wasted on McCain's attack on Ayers and Acorn could have been spent providing an additional 15 minutes of fame for Joe the Plumber... thus entitling him to twice his life allotment. Surely, Mr. Webb, you haven't soiled your overly-starched hankie for Joe the Plumber and his quarter-million dollar salary. More power to him; I'm glad he's successful, now pay your bloody taxes Joe and quit whining.
Angry Frank
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'Joe the Plumber' - is Joe smart? Can Joe, or more to the point, can Grizzly John do the maths?
Joe's potential business earns between $250K and $280K a year he says. Big O's tax plan says that only earnings above $250K get hit by the extra 3% tax. So Joe, and you too John, I ask the question:
Will an extra $900 a year in taxes stop you buying the business? If the answer is 'Yes' Joe, I have a small bit of advice for you - don't buy the business fella, and not because of the increased tax 'burden'...
And Joe, it's $2.47 a day extra tax. I guess with those huge amounts of revenue you have to pay, the risk is just too BIG for you.
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130:
"But isn't there a difference between a British Citizen and a British National?"
Er . . .looking at it logically, I suppose there must be. A British national has to be born in Britain or nationalised (no, I mean 'naturalised' -- I keep thinking of the banks) I presume. That looks easy enough.
But 'British Citizen'? It sounds as though that ought to mean someone who is both British nationality and lives in the UK, but as far as the NHS is concerned, a 'French national' friend of mine who has a flat here, works here and pays taxes here, is just like me who is the former. But she can't vote in British elections (apart from the Mayor of London ones) because she's not a 'national'.
Must just mean 'resident of Britain', then?
I never was keen on this idea -- it was all a bit of Tory Blair's pandering to the tabloids and the 'illegal immigration scares' and bound to cause endless confusion, I thought.
(My friend's mother keeps suggesting I go off to Paris next time I need a bit of medical attention and do the 'health tourist' bit there, but I dare say the same sort of thing applies there too.
Anyway, she told me of a rather badly botched procedure on her niece's ankle there a few months ago, so occasional incompetent, or misapplied, medical care isn't just the province of the NHS. Touch wood, I should be having a little job done on me in about 4 weeks, total time from seeing my GP, through to consultant, MRI scan and op about 8-10 weeks. It's not for anything life-threatening, just to help me stay relatively mobile for a few months, or maybe a year, more.
And it's all free! I just feel a tiny bit guilty because I've cost the NHS much more by now than I paid into it, or actually ever could . . .
Still, I also contributed to an American friend's spell in intensive care when she contracted a rare nervous disease, which her father told me would have left her with a 150,000 dollar bill in the US, even if she'd had good health insurance, which horrified me. That was all free, too.)
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#33: IIRC, the catagory of "British National" is a relic of earlier immigration law, when the law made no distinction between people from the UK and people from other parts of the Commonwealth.
When the laws were changed, the catagory of "citizen" was invented for people born in the UK of parents who had a right to be here (and for foreigners who have applied for and recieved citizenship).
Some people who did not automatically become citizens became "British Nationals" instead.
IIRC, no new "British Nationals" can be created, although non-citizens can potentially become citizens.
But don't take my word for it - the Home Office website will probably have a more detailed/correct explanation.
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Watching the debates, and allot of last night's debate was frightful. But anyway, the question now is where do we as a nation, go from here.
Obama didn't say anything new, and he acts like he is covered in teflon, nothing sticks on him.
McCain needed to start out of the gate in the mode he was in last night, then back off and slide in home plate.
Folks, Ive said it before and I have witnessed that the electoral college will put in office who it wants.....the popular vote don't mean squat.
As a nation today, we need someone in office that will be able to stop this runaway economy and strengthen our national defenses.
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35 grrrrrlliiee
good to see you back.
FULL AGREEMENT FROM ME.
No Cotton Hill for president.
or should that be Dot Cotton?
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132. At 10:59am on 16 Oct 2008, fearlessbritabroad wrote:
'Joe the Plumber' - is Joe smart? Can Joe, or more to the point, can Grizzly John do the maths?
Joe's potential business earns between $250K and $280K a year he says. Big O's tax plan says that only earnings above $250K get hit by the extra 3% tax. So Joe, and you too John, I ask the question:
Will an extra $900 a year in taxes stop you buying the business? If the answer is 'Yes' Joe, I have a small bit of advice for you - don't buy the business fella, and not because of the increased tax 'burden'...
And Joe, it's $2.47 a day extra tax. I guess with those huge amounts of revenue you have to pay, the risk is just too BIG for you.
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Thankyou.
I heard another one on NPR the guy was saying if he pays another 3000 on taxes he will(earned 500 000) he would have to make one guy unemployed and would not be able to grow his business (oil drilling related).
It seems to me the GOP bosses are threatening everyone to vote GOP.
That is why so many vote against Their interest and vote GOP.
They are threatened into believing they will be "let GO" because the boss on half a mil cant live without that extra 3000.
ViVe La Revolution
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british-ish (#127), I don't think public speaking has declined among US presidential candidates. Eisenhower was notable poor at speaking. I don't see how that has anything to do with his judgment as President, which is what mattered most. Even Kennedy was much better with a prepared speech than impromptu.
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"English" health has its problems, but is it so ghastly?
Hooray ! Hooray ! There is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth Mr Webb !!
By the way, lose the stuff about how much these guys are getting paid.. - maybe they do get more than you, but are they any more happy ? I'm sure they are not !
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Style: Obama wins.
He is smooth, eloquent and respectful. Presidential, one might say.
Substance: Obama wins.
Regardless of all the side-issues McCain (and even Schieffer) brought up, Obama only ever wanted to talk about the things that matter to voters, the economy, healthcare, taxes, education, free trade (ok maybe not free trade).
Empathy: McCain wins.
Even if he appears to only have empathy with very successful plumbers in the top 5% tax bracket, the Joe spiel came across as Obama-taxing-average-Joe. Smart people won't be fooled, but smart people have already decided who to vote for.
Passion: McCain wins.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with him, McCain really believes what he says and will defend "his people" to the death.
Positivity: Obama wins.
It must be true that Obama has spent more on negative campaigning than any other presidential candidate in history. Yet history will remember the McCain campaign as the negative one and Obama as the issue-centric optimist. Another case where perception trumps facts - possibly because when Republicans go negative, they do it so very effectively.
Best line of the night: McCain wins.
If you wanted to run against Bush you should have run for president 4 years ago. That's the soundbite that will stick.
Gaffes: McCain loses.
Was the autism comment a gaffe or a badly explained extrapolation? Did he really not realise that Joe the Plumber would be exempt from healthcare benefit tax? Just who is Senator Government?
Best Defensive Play: Obama wins
Well it had to be given that he barely attacked all night. Clarifying the Ayers and Acorn smears, listing the people he would associate with as President, defending his record on abortion and the counter-attack following McCain's zero fine gaffe, and his soothing words about McCain's hurt feelings, there was nothing McCain could throw that stuck. Although he cleverly ignored the charge that could have harmed him - campaign finance - so it got buried.
I see this as a clear Obama win, in terms of a debate and as a job interview for President. McCain had his moments, sure, but he is appearing more and more like a political pygmy being eclipsed by Obama's halo.
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I am shocked. The standard of BBC reporting on this election is just AWFUL. (I do not include your column, Mr Webb but refer to articles on the main website).
Look at the most recent offering.
1. It is so totally out of date - example: "Obama will now concentrate on Republican states". Actually he's had a ground game in these states for SIX months and more!
2. What is not out of date is obvious bunkum: "Sources say that something really glaringly obvious is the case", "Analysts say that something else known to everyone for months is now the case".
I happen to know that no sources have said these things. No analysts. No commentators.
The BBC is just dressing up things which have been known to the rest of us for months with these labels 'analysts', 'soruces' etc.. to make it look like they are covering the event properly.
Shoddy. Poor. Deceptive and misleading.
I wonder why, if the BBC cant be bothered to keep up to speed, why report on it at all?
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Justin:
I watch the DEBATES; as extra credits in my class...and, i think that things could have gone smoother...and easier...
--Dennis
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