The Second US Presidential Debate - Live
NASHVILLE: These were my thoughts on the second McCain-Obama debate, jotted down as it unfolded:
2132: On verbiage - as S Palin would put it - Obama leads for sure; he repeated less and had some good lines. McCain seems angry and repeats lines from previous debates. So no disasters for either candidate but Obama edges it - I cannot see how the McCain performance enthuses the middle ground.
2129: A couple of general points about body-language: I thought McCain looked pretty good once he stopped prowling. He is lean and responsive. Obama is cool and tall but not so quickly responsive. Neither really engaged with the audience, partly because the rules did not allow it. McCain is back on whatever drugs lead you to say "my friend" every two minutes. They will be confiscated before next week. Obama cannot seem to begin an answer with a snappy yes or no or maybe - he has to change gears.
2119: Obama is getting McCain cross now - with another jab at his bomb bomb bomb Iran song. McCain tries a defence - it was a joke with a friend. He knows how to get Osama Bin Laden but he won't tell us how.
2116: Brilliant question from the audience on Pakistan - to pursue or not to pursue. Obama says he would. McCain, oddly, is making a different case. He may well be right (Obama seems not to realise what would happen in Pakistan) but it is dangerous for him. He sounds soft on terrorists, frankly. God knows what will happen if Sarah Palin finds out.
2111: Obama ignores a question about the effects of the economic downturn on US military power and hits McCain on Iraq. Brokaw asks a good question on the use of force when there are no national security issues at stake. Obama makes the case for intervention. But then unmakes it - the allies must do it as well. McCain agrees, pretty much.
2100: Interesting debate now on health with the fundamental issue of government intrusion. McCain is still in the anti-government mold, but Obama points out where he believes regulation works - in respect of insurance companies, for instance. I wonder whether recent events will affect the balance of view on this among viewers and voters...
2059: McCain does not answer either. The answer is that healthcare in America is a mess. Obama now says health is a right - McCain says it's a responsibility.
2054: To the question "Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity" Obama fails miserably to connect. He does not say yes or no. He merely wanders into a stump speech take on his proposals. He is no Bill Clinton. He is no George Bush, frankly. YES OR NO!!
2053: Bush and Cheney! McCain mentions them with contempt. Contempt he must truly feel.
2047: The reply to the question about how to create new energy technology gives Obama a good line - that for 30 years Washington has done nothing. For 26 McCain has been there. Not really fair - he has tried, but quite a good line.
2046: McCain does repeat himself - he is on about Reagan and Tip O'Neil for the second time. He manages to avoid the appalling "Miss Congeniality" joke. But his basic message on tax is tough - he looks like a cutter but Obama not so much.
2043: Obama is on the attack on tax now - defending his tax proposals. Clinton (Bill) would have done a touchy-feely job here - who among you earns over 250 grand? etc. Obama prefers to lecture.
2040: McCain sounds angry - as some thought he had to. He talks of Senator Obama's tax secret that you don't know! But the tax issue is important and I suspect he is convincing to some - Obama also senses it and tries to come back but is steamrollered by Brokaw.
2038: Obama has a good line with McCain's tax cuts benefiting CEOs - who have gone from heroes to zeros in modern US iconography.
2033: Obama knows how much petrol (gas) is in Nashville. Interesting that he puts energy above health as a priority - he would not have done that before gas got so pricey.
2032: To the question: "What will you sacrifice?" McCain talks about cutting government programmes and Obama talks about cutting energy use. This is a clear difference and comes to the fore because the question was sharply focused.
2029: McCain is on the attack again - does this work? He is listing Obama's faults. Including millions of dollars for an overhead projector for an Illinois project! Convincing to those who don't think much of Obama, but I am not sure this gets to floating voters....
2026: I think McCain may be getting too close. He has a tendency to go up to the audience and prowl like a lion.
2021: McCain is on a Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac attack - suggesting Obama and the Democrats let the two institutions go on a spending spree. This is a reasonable line, I think - it points out that much of the deregulation objected to by the Democrats (now) was actually supported by them at the time. Obama hits back with the deregulation on Wall St - and McCain's backing for it. And a good line - you're not interested in politicians pointing fingers.
2010: Obama gets it - he has no answer (it would be odd to name someone right now for either candidate) but he talks of the qualities the person will need.
2009: Oh gosh a weird answer from McCain to the question - who will your treasury secretary be? Not you, he shoots back. It sounds odd.
2008: Obama is up and running with a smooth riff on the economy - a populist swipe at some executives who have already misbehaved with taxpayer money.
2005: My great hope as the questions begin is that ordinary people are slightly better questioners than the first two utterly hopeless overpaid "moderators".
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Nukes before wind?
telling
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As I gather they used to say: "Where's the beef?"
There's no real substance from either of them.
Doesn't McCain sound nice and uncly? Aah. Sweet.
But it's all fantasy reassurance from the pair of them: everybody's going to be OK, the American Dream's intact. . .they're both inhabiting cloud cuckoo land.
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Obama doesn't sound very fluent to me in his responses. He's obviously much better with a prepared speech. Disappointing.
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If this debate is all about the economy then its goodbye john !
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McCain is talking about off-shore drilling to bridge the gap... is he talking about the Bridge to Nowhere?
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geezer alert ! doddering responses and grandiose solutions ie we can solve all the problems all at once ! We are Americans!
la la la what blather
If he call someone his friend again, I'm gonna cry
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McCain is 'my friend'-ing again. At least the candidates are better at actually answering the questions. Yay for Tom Brokaw for forcing answers and time constraints!
I like Obama's responses better. He seems to be focused on the issues a lot more than McCain. McCain gets hung up on voting record, earmarks, etc...
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In a word B - 0 - R - I - N - G - !
From what I have seen in the last 50 minutes, it's not going to sway anyone to McCain. If he was so brilliant during the last two decades, why are we in such a mess no?
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Now dear John wants too drill and build more nuke plants , at least Obama is prepared too invest in clean coal and other green options , Republicans a subsidery of the oil companies .
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They both remind me of King Lear: "I shall do such things . . ."
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"Bush missed an opportunity when he said to Americans: "Go out and shop." Anyone know what is Obama talking about? "
yes, why don't you?
Bush did nothing to mobilize public opinion to accept the sacrifices that war implies ? the first thing a leader would do. Tax cuts could go ahead as planned, and energy saving was dismissed out of hand. "Go shopping" was the administration's message.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2003/01/14/edspiers_ed3_.php
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Obama tells the them they are a wealthy nation , please correct me are they not in the red for a few trillion dollars ....
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Missrepublican:
I suggest you watch Keith Olbermann's latest countdown if you want to understand why Obama's "friends" aren't problematic, and why McCain and Palin are hypocrites when they don't take a look at their own friends.
Oh and in other news, McCain just "Myfriended" again twice! For gods sakes...
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Anybody doing a "My friends" count? It is so irritating now . . .
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The blog comment regarding healthcare - okay, Obama maybe could have been a bit more cheerful, maybe thrown the audience a wink, even, but the content of his answer, and his response to the follow up, show he UNDERSTANDS how dismal the system is here.
McCain's plans for healthcare would basically throw consumers to the wolves. It would ruin the barely functioning system we have of employer funded healthcare.
He dislikes mandates? For god's sake - it is only because of mandates that insurers agree to cover maternity, cover certain preventive procedures (oh, meaningless ones like cancer screens).
I honestly hope people here in the states were listening carefully to that answer.
A tax credit for a measley $5000 would not pay for the poor coverage my husband and I have through our employer.
Because he had the termerity to actually have, and recover, from a serious illness, my husband, if he found someone in the (ho ho ho) free market willing to cover him, would probably spend that much on premium alone for 3 months coverage.
I work in health insurance. I'm not kidding. McCain's policy would be a disaster for people, but the insurance companies would need bigger rakes to get all the cash.
Just like the banks and the traders...
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So one doesn't mind bombing Pakistan; the other wants to force the Russian Bear into a cold-war corner . . .Both want to be tough on Russia and Iran. . .If Israel is involved, forget the UN and every other country . . The future looks good, doesn't it?
As far as foreign policy goes, they are both basically locked into the same logic as the Bush-Cheney axis. As you can hear from their response about Iran. They both show how deeply some of the propaganda over the last eight years has become endemic.
The Guardian warned a long time ago that the Europeans were wrong if they thought Obama would really change American foreign policy, and I thought they were right then, and I fear they are still.
But it will all go down well with a lot of the electorate, won't it?
Frankly, I feel thoroughly depressed after all that.
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John McCain has just repeated that Obama has not acknowledged that the "the surge" has worked. If my memory is correct, that is not what Mr Obama said to Bill O'Reilly - he conceded that there was a measure of success. Mischaracterising Mr Obama's words does not assist him.
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Predictably, McCain was at his best once the topic shifted to foreign affairs, but it seemed to me that Obama better answered the questions about what the bail-out means to the man in the (main) street, and how he would fix the crisis. Surely this is more important to most people at this stage?
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#12 - milesbetweenus
Yeah, I vaguely remember that Bush asked us to go out and shop when the economy tumbled in 2001. I don't remember his exact words, but that was his solution to the economic wobble of 2001 when things plummeted after 9/11.
It didn't really boost my confidence.... Kind of like when our oil went up.. his solution was to go to the Saudi's, hat it hand, and say "uh, we ran out of gas.. can you make some more for us?" Not exactly the response I was hoping for from our president.
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I felt Obama was not at his best tonight but he still seem more presidential and ready for the challenges ahead. It sure looks like time is running out on McCain.
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Obama strains to present himself as a reasonable, yea conservative, fellow. The contrast between this and his messianic mode really create a dissonance in my mind.
Who IS this man? Who and what will he be tomorrow or the next day? He speaks in different dialects of English, depending upon the audience. Tonight, he was using his Harvard Yard version of English.
He keeps heading back to a script, talking over or past his questioners, and has to try to not act condescending to Sen. McCain.
He really, really danced on the question about Israel, and I fear when push comes to shove, he'll leave the Israelis to their fate.
McCain's the same guy tonight as he is other times--certainly not exciting, but we don't NEED exciting. We need competent and clear-headed, and a person with one integrated persona and personality, who speaks the same version of the language to everyone.
This really really matters, because the job will not allow for the kind of torturous parsing that the Clintons employed on a daily basis in the 1990's.
He was definitely not my first choice in the primaries, and I have a list of 'if only's' about the outcome of the GOP primaries.
But given the choice I have, I still have to go for McCain. We need a grown-up in the office, and BHO just doesn't qualify.
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mccain limped very badly every time he moved around the stage and that cannot be helpful on the age and health issues
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All,
My posts are limited these days, times are hard and I have a number of demands that are tieing up most of my waking hours.
That said, I have a few minutes to say something serious.
Michelle looked hot.
Happy Sam
PS Be back when I can
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Anyone else think McCain came off as a jerk? That little dig about not getting a number on health care fines ticked me off.
And the Israel question was ridiculous. Of course they're not going to wait for UN approval. If either candidate came off as not 100% behind Israel, they would lose the election.
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will mccain's incredibly Democratic proposal for the government to rewite mortgage terms had to have the base SCREAMING at the televisin for him to shut up and oh btw in the bailout bill the Dems proposed to give bankruptcy judges the power to do this and the House Republicans killed it
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Obama says 'yo' and 'uh' a lot, but seemed to be more focused on issues.
McCain a bit heavy on 'record' and cheesy populism.
Still having a hard time looking his opponent in the eye.
Having to walk around made him look even older than he is.
Let's face a tough fact : Obama being black might be a disadvantage, but McCain is a crippled geezer.
You heard right, crippled; alleged war hero or not, he looks, well, disabled when he moves.
How does that possibly influence the voters ? No, seriously.
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There will be a lot of talk tomorrow about who "won" the "debate." I can hardly wait for the exciting news. Meanwhile I used the debate time to read an Evanovich book. There was no Tina Fey on tonight and I needed humor to sustain me.
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18. Good day, David_C
You are correct that Obama apprehensively admitted to the surge's success, but has never repeated that line of thinking since that interview. O'Reilly caught him on that one and McCain is simply trying his best to politicize that point.
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17. Hello british-ish and good day.
What part of US foreign policy did the Guardian believe needed to be changed?
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16: skintodd,
I can't quote it exactly, but the BBC Radio 5 guys have just mnentioned it, and it raised my eyebrows a bit. McCain said something to the effect that the current standard of benefits the middle class in America has couldn't be maintained because of the economic situation.
That's pretty fundamental, isn't it? That's health care, pensions, help for the unemployed and disabled, foodstamps, an awful lot of things, isn't it? And I gather those 'benefits' aren't exactly generous for the not-so-well-off as it is. (I hadn't realised until it was explained tonight that the American 'middle class' actually comprises a lot of what we would call 'working class'. Still -- I know it's old-fashioned.)
I presume all that would be replaced by that 3000 dollar handout, the 5000 dollar contribution to health care (go a long way that in the US, won't it? If I've got that the right way round) and no tax cuts.
Very reminiscent of Reaganomics, I thought. I presume that the only reason Obama let that pass is because he daren't talk about cuts in services or tax increases now he's ahead in the polls.
"My hero is Teddy Roosevelt." The president who assisted the decline of several wildlife species . . .
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20. Josephina,
That line in 2001 was one of the may 'stupidisms' that Bush was responsible for.
Though, he didn't actually go to the Saudi's for increased production. He went to the Congress for support on a new drilling policy. Which the Demos quickly torpedoed.
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In regard to "hot pursuit" in Pakistan:
The airstrikes into Pakistan's territory are counterproductive to efforts against terrorism. It is not worth killing even Bin Laden himself if it turns the people of the region against us. Couter-Insurgency is never about any one man.
Furthermore, its a flagrant violation of Pakistan's sovereignity to attack in their territory without their permission, a pretty poor way to treat an ally.
Obama is dead wrong in this regard.
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17, british-ish:
So one doesn't mind bombing Pakistan; the other wants to force the Russian Bear into a cold-war corner . . .Both want to be tough on Russia and Iran. . .If Israel is involved, forget the UN and every other country . . The future looks good, doesn't it?
The Guardian warned a long time ago that the Europeans were wrong if they thought Obama would really change American foreign policy, and I thought they were right then, and I fear they are still.
But it will all go down well with a lot of the electorate, won't it?
_____
Don't give up hope yet, not all is lost.
As you said, a tough stance goes down well with the electorate, and might be crucial for either candidate to succeed in a country like that.
Obama has since early in his campaign demanded more cooperation from Europe re. foreign politics, it's never been a secret and was widely discussed in the media.
After the elections, Realpolitik will rear it's ugly head, and yesterday's tough talk will be meaningless.
The question is, which candidate might prove to be more approachable, more open-minded, more sensitive to the challenges the world is facing ?
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Ronin57 wrote:
Obama tells the them they are a wealthy nation , please correct me are they not in the red for a few trillion dollars ....
That's just what the bail-out will end up costing; I lost track of the noughts in the real debt a long time ago; they just seemed to increase by another couple a month. I just can't count beyond (British) billion.
But that's what the TV audience wants to hear; like Bush, "we can get through this", like McCain, "we're all really clever, so we don't really have a problem we can't fix". It's a comfort blanket. Or heads-under-the-bedclothes time.
What's the difference between an American presidential pessimist and an American presidential optimist?
The first says the glass is half full; the second says you'll need at least three more to hold all the water by tomorrow.
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At the risk of sounding like JohnAAA and his polling statistics, here are the average payoffs for gamblers tonight:
A $100 bet on McCain pays $222;
a $100 bet on Obama pays $36.58.
Intrade has McCain at 28.3 and Obama at 71.7.
The spread has widened since the debate. Does that mean that Obama "won" this ridiculous political performance?
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jello,
McCain's limp is due to his time in a concentration camp and not because he's old. And using your argument, the fact that he's old should make him more qualified on health issues.
I absolutely agree with McCain AND the Democrats that the Judiciary could be an effective means of managing bankruptcies. Unfortunately, the sheer volume of cases would absolutely overload the system. With experience in Hurricane Katrina programs, I can tell you that a plan like that would be next to impossible to implement.
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I believe that the millions of observers of this debate
across the globe missed the point that the real
McCain and Obama were absent, due to fears of
assassination. Obviously, this must be the reason
why their responses were so wooden and scripted.
The one exception to this was McCain's announcement
of a plan to buy out mortgages and renegotiate
payments with homeowners. I hope that there are
a few million extra printing presses lying idle, because
we're going to need them to print up all of the money
to do this.
#17, british-ish, you are being needlessly pessimistic
about foreign policy positions. Our legions of scientists,
cloned from their ancestors at Penamunde, have
developed a drug which makes everybody love
us Americans. We will gladly modify it to work
for our allies. Problem solved!
#24, Sam, sorry to hear that you have to work
so hard. May I borrow your Bugatti for the night?
#27, Fritz_Kraut, what you mentioned makes me
wonder if Sarah Palin is going to dress in black for
the inauguration.
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How does anybody call this debate a tie? It was a clear win for Obama. He was on point all the way through. His answers were clear, concise and compelling to this independent voter. McCain was vague and repetitive in his responses, and generally came across as tired. Repeatedly stating that Obama will raise taxes when Obama said time and time again that 95% of people will get a tax cut. Repeatedly questioning Obama's judgement on foreign policy when Obama made the right call on Iraq years before it was popular. McCain sounded like a beaten man to me. Obama schooled him and looked like a President doing it. Game over.
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#21. SydneySD-6: "It sure looks like time is running out on McCain."
In every sense of the phrase. A reason many are concerned about his vice-president.
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Dear oh dear.
"but McCain is a crippled geezer.?You heard right, crippled; alleged war hero or not, he looks, well, disabled when he moves.??How does that possibly influence the voters ? No, seriously."
And:
"mccain limped very badly every time he moved around the stage and that cannot be helpful on the age and health issues"
The campaign over discrimination against disable people obviously needs to be stepped up a bit.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Roosevelt (Franklin, not Teddy) use a wheelchair? Kennedy had a back brace. . .Gordon Brown, our PM is blind in one eye; we had a totally blind Home Secretary for a few years . . .
And on a purely personal note, I'm "crippled" too; and anyone who suggests that diminishes my mental abilities is going to get the sharp end of my crutch right up where the sun don't shine.
A little reconsideration could be in order, perhaps?
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"THAT ONE"
Look for it tomorrow on campaign posters on both republican and democratic rallies. Apparently the "right" and the "left" liked the phrase :
"THAT ONE"
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NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:
17. Hello british-ish and good day.
What part of US foreign policy did the Guardian believe needed to be changed?
Most of it, but primarily the doctrine of pre-emption, the combative approach of "you're with us or against us" and the sometimes casual dismissal of international law.
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Libertarian Agenda,
With all due respect, please tell me you aren't serious? That's like saying that if Adolf Hitler had fled to Switzerland during the middle of WWII, we shouldn't have taken him out not matter what.
I don't care if Bin Laden is inside the Mayor's office in downtown Islamabad, we would be stupid not to eliminate him if we were certain of his whereabouts.
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Not sure why but my post 35 seems to be held up in the Censor's office.
So, can I say I agree with post 40 from simplecommonsense?
And if 35 does pop up later then apologies for repeating myself, but to me the most telling bit was after the end of the debate, while the talking heads were waffling and the feed was still running.
McCain gone to bed? And did he refuse to shake Obama's hand?????
Obama playing the crowd, signing autographs, posing for numerous photo's with those cute little throwaway (security issue?) cameras. Impressive and I think it will tell people a lot. The audience knew they were with their next President.
Attack on Iran or North Korea notwithstanding Obama just won the big prize.
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Sorry, meant to ask
"That one" - was that just rude or deliberately belittling. (Failed at a guess).
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Fans of both sides will feel vindicated and outraged as usual... unable to see any valid points that the other side has made.
But all these debates seem to do is underline the irrelevance of politicians.
For 90% of the questions BOTH missed the point. And appealing to the existing opinions of their supporters seems more important than addressing the real problems/solutions.
How can either party solve or manage any problems when the whole process encourages them to ignore real solutions and be as misinformed as possible.
Fiddling while...
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Re #31 from british-ish
McCain was referring to Social Security benefits - our take on the state pension. He said that workers today, paying into the system, will not be able to get the same benefits as those drawing them today. He may also have included Medicare (government subsidized health insurance for the over 65s and disabled) but did not specifically mention that.
Bush tried to privatize social security this term, but it was a dismal flop thank goodness - he wanted to put the social security funds into private market accounts. Had that happened, most of those would be disappearing down the stock market drain even as we speak...
The other thing McCain said that was interesting was that he wanted to buy up the mortgages for householders threatened with foreclosure.
What was that about? Isn't that part of the 700 billion dollar I've just helped pay for?
His base will be fuming over that one, I bet...
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gunsandreligion wrote:
I believe that the millions of observers of this debate
across the globe missed the point that the real McCain and Obama were absent, due to fears of
assassination. Obviously, this must be the reason why their responses were so wooden and scripted.
You know, listening to McCain I kept thinking of Maggie Thatcher's voice makeover. His voice and intonation -- I just listened, I didn't watch -- kept reminding me of Ronnie Reagan.
If they were really third-rate resting actors imported from Holywood for the night, that explains it.
Illuminating as ever, gunsandreligion. I don't know what we'd do without these brilliant iniights.
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41.David_C,
Unfortunately, many have similar fears about Obama on inauguration day.
47. memink,
Sorry, but if you noticed at the end of the debate, both McCain and Obama were blocking Brokaw's camera shot because they were shaking hands.
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I see no clues that Obama would follow Bush's policies. Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
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45. british,
I see no clues that Obama would follow Bush's policies. Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
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skintodd,
The 700 billion (soon to be 1.5 trillion) has nothing to do with homeowners. That is strictly 'new' money.
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39, guns.
What do you think would happen if McCain died two or three days before the election? Would the Republicans slap someone on the ticket, let Obama run unopposed, or let a dead man run?
If they let a dead man run and he won, Palin could never succeed as president since there had been no president (except in spirit) to succeed. Maybe the Republicans would quietly put McCain in cold storage and let him thaw right after the votes were in.
Your comment about Palin wearing black at the inauguration inspired me.
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56 marbles
methinks your scenario might already have happened
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This debate was more about avoiding potential pitfalls than actually going on the offensive or laying out one's plans. And that's a very interesting insight by gunsandreligion, they might have been hollywodd extras on stage instead of the real ones.
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#24. SamTyler1969: "My posts are limited these days, times are hard."
And to think that ten days ago you wrote Working folks refer to themselves as, well, working folks. As for not being working class (or if you prefer middle class, blue collar)? Not any more, no.
The American dream, baby.
While I feel sorry for anyone whose life is not going to plan, perhaps you can now empathise with those who do see themselves as "working folks". I hope the dream doesn't become a nightmare; you're too interesting to lose!
#50. skintodd: "McCain said . . . that he wanted to buy up the mortgages for householders threatened with foreclosure."
Very strange - what about those of us who have paid on time for years - do they get their payments back? Sounded like pandering to me. Not much better than the "stimulus" payments which were sent out earlier this year.
52. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Unfortunately, many have similar fears about Obama on inauguration day."
Which would you rather have for Vice-president, a neophyte or someone who knows more than a little about foreign affairs? You don't have to answer!
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57, meminmk.
Is it possible that McCain is a dummy and Tina Fey is a ventriloquist?
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"2005: My great hope as the questions begin is that ordinary people are slightly better questioners than the first two utterly hopeless overpaid "moderators".
What is with you Justin! The questions asked in the first two debates were not all that awful, and perhaps most shocking is that the questions in this one weren't all that different!! Also, where did you get access to the previous moderator's pay checks? Isn't that a breach of privacy? What do you think is a reasonable salary for a TV debate moderator?
I'd love an answer, thanks!
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#56. allmymarbles: "What do you think would happen if McCain died two or three days before the election?"
Worse than that, what would happen if he died two or three days after the election? Or at any time before Inauguration Day? Would the 'lipstick lady' automatically become President? Scary thought.
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In 43 I made a similar point about FDR in response to the two posts about McCain being "crippled".
I also pointed out that Gordon Brown (our PM) is blind in one eye, and we had a blind Home Secretary, while Kennedy wore a brace.
I too am 'crippled', and I find the implication that it diminishes my or others' mental rather than physical capacity offensive.
(Now, I hope this gets past the moderators, since it appears that the common word for a walking aid that is somewhat more sophisticated than a walking stick that I used previously was apparently a word "some people might think offensive". Oh, please!)
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Clearly an Obama win tonight! Frankly it wasn't even close in my book. One interesting thing that was apparent from the start is that McCain seemed to constantly take notes or refer to his notes for fear of fogetting the question. Obama seemed confident and relaxed with the questions and had answers in his head and not on paper. Maybe McCain's age is becoming more and more of a factor but I certainly want a president who can retain a minimum amount of information in his head rather than need constant prompting - at one point McCain seemed to try and sneekily take a peak at the question he wrote down just in case he forgot the answer!
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54: NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
It would certainly be extremely provocative to Russia.
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59. David_C,
Don't be so presumptive. I don't care for Palin's politics much either. BUT, please don't give Obama any undue credit. He has the same amount of experience as Palin, though his crash course in foreign policy started a little earlier, i.e. when he announced his candidacy.
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McCain was much stronger on defense.
I was very surprised to hear Obama say that we would have an "obligation" to step in if genocide were occurring. He seems very naive.
McCain's position that we should only intervene if we can favorably influence the outcome seems much wiser.
This is one case where Obama's lack of experience and his having to rely on the theoretical is dangerous.
Obama seemed lost in his answer re: Russia. He talked about 21st century responses, being proactive versus reactive, etc. Completely faked his way through it.
Obama seemed to include a tax increase in almost every answer. Oh boy.
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I have tried three times now to suggest that being disabled myself, I am less than happy with the two posts that imply someone with a disabilty is less mentally capable than someone who is not.
What exactly is so problematic about me writing that?
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62. David_C,
Now that you the subject has been broached, I would take a Palin/Pelosi executive branch over a Biden/Pelosi one any day. Especially with an overwhelmingly controlled Democratic Congress. Without the benefits of a 3 party system as in Britain, the same government that perpetrated the Fannie/Freddie debacle, will have full control over our financial future.
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42. Allmymarbles (previous topic)
Yes I think it does..... the winning thing ?........ and desperate men......... frankly, its more than a concern.
On this second meeting......... *that one* .... Mr * hair transplant*, a funny that wasnt', clearly lost ground........
Looking at the two performances my belief is that Sen Obamas was the more assured and delivered the better constructed answers. It was surely the more reassuring performance, in such heady times, for ordinary people now facing severe domestic pressures in the eye.
On Foreign Policy and International Relations I say this on Afghanistan / Pakistan. I firmly believe the recent comments from Brig Mark Coleman - Smith, in theatre, and news of other possible Saudi brokered talks to be far closer to reality and a source for encouragment.
That Sec Robert Gates has dismissed them as being defeatist is staggering and absolutely shows the one dimensional strategy that both he and Sen McCain share. Any successful formula in Afghanistan will be borne out of diplomacy, engagement and talks - not military action and *Victory* with a capital V.
That said, and having already raised points on US x-border attacks across into Pakistan, the current policy of CIA remote attacks into the NW Pakistani regions and direct SF heliborne missions are undoubtedly doing far more to fuel the crisis and rank anti-americanism, strategically, than the snatching of any short term gains. On this aspect I would like to take BO out for a quiet drink and put a different view and alternative approach to him.
In any event, I ask everyone this......
....is OBL actually genuinely resident in a cave in this region and / or even still alive? How sure can we all be that he / they haven't sown a beautifully simple, virtual seed of deception here? Just like one Radovan Karodzic, it it completely implausible that he might be flourishing very much closer to home...... maybe even working in lower Manhattan?
If you were OBL, where wouldn't you be right now?
Bill
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I think it was a wasted question to ask "What don't you know and how will you learn it?"
They should have just been given time to make closing remarks.
And, since we're making petty comments on appearances, Obama often looked shaken and flushed while listening to McCain, as though he'd never been around anyone like that before. I guess his advisors aren't that tough.
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#66. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Don't be so presumptive. I don't care for Palin's politics much either. BUT, please don't give Obama any undue credit. He has the same amount of experience as Palin, though his crash course in foreign policy started a little earlier, i.e. when he announced his candidacy."
That wasn't the question! Of the two vice-presidential candidates, which would you prefer? I understand that some would have concerns about Mr Obama, that's a given.
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62, David.
I agree that if McCain won and died right after the election the result would be grim. But if he died just before it think how exciting it would be. This has been a boring year. We deserve a reward.
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65. british,
I don't think you should confuse that with preemption, though. What do you think a resurgence of hard liners in Russia will bring for those breakaway nations? Don't you believe there is a real chance that Russia would attempt to regain control over those countries? If so, the energy pipeline to Euro countries like Germany is significantly impacted. Not to mention, those countries overwhelmingly desire to become part of a unified Europe. Should we abandon them so as to not upset the Russians?
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No. 24 Sam
Thanks, Sam, and keep your spirits up. Your wit and analysis are missed, but I'm glad you're takin' care of business.
b
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70. BillTyrone:
"It was surely the more reassuring performance, in such heady times, for ordinary people now facing severe domestic pressures in the eye."
Bill, I would have to disagree. It's not reassuring for me to hear hypotheticals and conceptual answers right now. I'd prefer someone who's actually gotten some work done.
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72, David.
Be fair. Obama was a state senator in a major state for seven years and a U. S. senator for almost four years. Palin has less than two years experience in a minor state. (It would be naive to count Wasilla.)
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I agree that Obama was easily the winner in this debate. In fact, McCain did so badly, it was pitiful. I felt that he was just repeating some of what Obama had said in many answers, like when he claimed he would care for the middle class...what a joke!
The most memorable was his opinion of health care. I am so glad McCain answered first, and in case anyone missed it, he did NOT believe it was a right!
McCain is "by the rich and for the rich, till death us do part"in my opinion.
Notice how both candidates never talk about the poor, only about the middle class. The poor in this country are a forgotten group, who are really suffering.
I believe Obama will be a better president for America and the world. Only problem now is overcoming the ever-present racism that is alive and well in this country. A white candidate with his qualifications and abilities would win this election with a landslide victory.
I am very hopeful he will manage to win, though. I cannot imagine how dreadful it would be to have McCain/Palin in office.
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David_C,
No reason to get agitated. I would honestly prefer Biden to Palin. But I don't believe that McCain's untimely death is a 'given' as you described Obama's questionable policies.
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No. 76
Every time I inadvertently and regretably read something you wrote, I feel like you sneezed on me.
b
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#42, NDPN... don't you think that was a little
unfair to Fritz. Surely he is as entitled to make
fun of McCain as anyone else!
#56, Ms. Marbles, I can see the movie screenplay now...
A beautiful young gold digger from Alaska is
engaged to marry a rich old white guy. But,
he croaks 3 days before the marriage.
She attempts to conceal the event from his
family, who are on to her. Instead of showing
up at the church which was planned, she
finds a Reverend Wright to marry them on
the other side of town.
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Pacific Coaster,
Please. Not so long ago, there were hordes of Democrats praising McCain for being so far left of the Republican base. Biden, Clinton, Lieberman, and many many others. The drama of a 'dreadful' McCain presidency is much to hollow.
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#24, Seriously Sam, I hope that all is well with you
and that you are just working hard.
And, to paraphrase a saying, "good beer
will get you though when you have no money
better than money will get you through with
no good beer."
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68, british-ish.
I don't think anyone is equating McCain's physical disability with his mental capability. And it is not his physical disability that is disturbing, but his bouts of melanoma. Melanoma is recurrent, and successive recurrences tend to be progressively more serious. If they appear internally they are usually fatal.
McCain's mental capability is something else again. It would appear that he is getting more rash and is making bad decisions. He is also getting testy in the public arena (not the McCain of old). Some people are young and bright and alert at 72; others become less flexible and more forgetful. He says the same thing over and over again. To me it looks as though McCain is showing his age, and then some.
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#69. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Without the benefits of a 3 party system as in Britain . . ."
It hasn't made one iota of difference during the last decade; Labour has had an overwhelming majority so it's been immaterial what the Opposition thinks. When Bills have been rejected in the House of Lords, the present government has used the provisions of the Parliament Act to override the upper house. It's no better on that side of the Atlantic.
#77. allmymarbles: "David, Be fair. Obama was a state senator in a major state for seven years and a U. S. senator for almost four years . . ."
I think you may have misunderstood the post; I was responding to one from NDPNDNTTHNKR. I concur with your appraisal of Mr Obama.
#79. NDPNDNTTHNKR (How I wish your screen name was not all in upper case!) "I don't believe that McCain's untimely death is a 'given' as you described Obama's questionable policies."
The "given" was that many people would agree that Mr Obama has questionable policies. I'll just have to make myself a little clearer in future.
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51. At 05:00am on 08 Oct 2008, british-ish I thought exactly the same about the Reagan similarity. I was desperately trying to remember what McCain normally sounds like. Seeing that it was 3.00am my time I've only seen some bites on CNN. Is it worth watching the full repeat?
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#62. "what would happen if he died two or three days after the election? Or at any time before Inauguration Day? Would the 'lipstick lady' automatically become President? Scary thought."
I looked it up - and here's the answer:
20th Amendment, Section 3:
If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
So if the winner dies after the Electoral College votes have been cast, then the Vice-president becomes President.
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I think that Obama won on points overall.
His most awkward start was the Russia answer. He made good points on health care, tax plan, new jobs, economic issues. Spoke to hard-pressed middle class. Call to service with energy answer hit a tone largely missing from current administration.
McCain more often answering questions with either feel-good or peripherally-related talking points (such as the long Iraq digression in response to the question of a doctrine for humanitarian intervention).
In terms of the most sacred constituents, I guess small businesses are the new farmers. Obama gave a full and measured answer (all the pros and cons of his health and tax plans for small businesses) to McCain's "Obama's tax secret" jab.
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42. 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR:
27. Kraut,?FDR was in a wheelchair. But, if you are as German as your name implies, I can understand where your bias comes from.
____
It's common knowledge that FDR was in a wheelchair, he also happened to be president when TV wasn't the main source of information in the US, and appearances didn't matter as much.
My point was, and it's the first time I thought of that, how do US American voters perceive a candidate who moves like Mini-Me ?
Personally, I couldn't care less, but I'm really curious.
I can't quite follow you re. the origin of my 'bias', or what my nationality has to do with my reasoning.
______
______
71, AndreainNY:
???And, since we're making petty comments on appearances, Obama often looked shaken and flushed while listening to McCain, as though he'd never been around anyone like that before.
_______
Ma'am, I have watched one debate, and you must have watched a completely different one.
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68, british-ish
further to 84
A good example of McCain's lack of judgment was what he said when he introduced Sarah Palin to the country. "We are soul mates. I love her." (I remember being shocked at the time.)
That is a very peculiar statement to make about a person you have just chosen to share a ticket that leads to the White House. It was unprofessional and did not confer dignity on Gov. Palin. This is not how you would speak of a fellow public servant. It's how you would speak of a woman who turns you on. This sort of indiscretion suggests that he is failing.
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84, 81:
No? That certainly looked like the implication to me. Or should I simply read those two comments as "if you are disabled you're not fit for X job"? Is that much different?
Our PM is blind in one eye, and we had a blind Minister.
And I am angry because my original posts about this were 'referred to the moderators' as far as I can see only because I used the common six letter word beginning with c and ending in h for the walking aid I use when I'm lucky enough not to use a wheelchair and it triggered the software into saying it was 'offensive'.
Stupid. I don't know any other word for the thing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
85, David.
My apologies. It did seem so unlike you to say something like that.
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last thought, on the supposed evils of 'government mandates' - let's remember some government mandates: clean air, clean water, workplace safety. Obama had a good response to McCain's idea that (in so many words) we need to even further privatize or deregulate health insurance.
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86, David:
Good heavens, no. But I ended up not quite sure what he really sounded like too.
I think he's been having voice training the last few days to make sure he would sound, as I put it early on, like a nice old uncle.
"Loses his temper? Shouts? Swears? What, this softly spoken warm-voiced nice old man? Never!"
It's image, isn't it? Politics for YouTube and the 10 second soundbites on TV and radio. I've heard some already. And he sounds, aw, shucks, like a really nice guy, y'know?.
Good Cop (McCain); Bad Cop (Palin). It's all games.
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Senator Obama clearly won this debate. His answers were clear and concise and he offered real solutions to America's woes. He built a rapport with the audience that resonated on screen while managing to demonstrate empathy for the millions of Americans who have fallen victim to the Bush/Cheney years in office.
Senator McCain, on the other hand, came across as beligerent and aggressive. He sneered at his opponent before announcing his intention to raise the federal defecit to above a trillion dollars with some ridiculously unworkable mortgage bail-out. McCain came across as a novice debater who was out of his league in the town hall format. He was outwitted and outsmarted by Obama at every turn and his plan to scam America of another four years of corruption unravelled.
Following on from his first debate win and the Biden/Palin debate, where Joe Biden destroyed Sarah Palin rhetorically, I think Obama can be comfortable in the knowledge that the "Maverick" is really just doughnut.
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89, Fritz.
There may not have been television when FDR was president, but there were newsreels that preceded every movie, and people went to the movies every week. Also we had lots of newspapers and the president was always in them.
He was, however, self-conscious about being a cripple and would go to great lengths to make himself appear normal. But if he was self-conscious, the people were not. We all knew he had had polio and admired him for continuing his career in spite of it.
The reaction to McCain has to do with his age, rather than his disabilities. He looks and acts like an old man. FDR was vital.
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#91, british-ish, anybody who has been in the thick
of it is disabled in one way or another. Some disabilities
are visible, others are not.
All life on this planet is fragile.
I think that Fritz was just asking a question, not
ridiculing McCain because of a physical disability.
However, that should not dissuade us from our
main task of ridiculing politicians because, after all,
they are politicians.
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68 ,2008, british-ish wrote:
I have tried three times now to suggest that being disabled myself, I am less than happy with the two posts that imply someone with a disabilty is less mentally capable than someone who is not.
______
That's not been my point; I was inquiring about the perception of a disabled candidate by the US public.
The German Interior Minister is in a wheelchair , after being shot , and he's brilliant. I hate his guts, but that's another story.
I must admit I've been a bit rude, but consider the importance of visual appearance in the US, then look at McCain - he does move in a funny way.
Of course, he was injured in the war,
or in captivity. Was he ?
He's a war hero, his injuries are most honourable, something to be proud of . Says who ?
I guess my point is, without the McCain war hero myth, there'd be no McCain.
No Senator, no candidate, just some weird old man, who wouldn't get the time of day from the very people he's trying to lure .
That's what I was thinking of when I watched him tonight.
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91, british-ish.
If I think someone is not mentally fit to be president, you can call that discrimination if you wish. If I think someone is too ill to survive a reasonable term in office, you can call that discrimination if you wish.
You are projecting your disability (and I don't know what it is) onto someone else. FDR was crippled by polio and served four terms as president. He was crippled before he ran the first time and everyone knew it.
However, he was mentally fit and had no illnesses at the time. He was merely crippled. That disability did not prevent him from being a fine president.
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84:
Repetition of phrases by a politician is hardly a sign of mental frailty. They all work on the principle that if you say the same thing often enough, people will believe it.
There have been plenty of examples of that principle operating in posts on this blog.
Hmm. On second thoughts, you may have a point there.
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98, guns.
I think we are carrying the humor burden alone.
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#89. Fritz_Kraut: "It's common knowledge that FDR was in a wheelchair, he also happened to be president when TV wasn't the main source of information in the US, and appearances didn't matter as much."
In fact, it wasn't common knowledge during FDR's presidency. He took enormous pains to be seen as physically healthy and even gave the appearance of being ambulatory, being discreetly supported on both sides to maintain the illusion. Although there was no widespread television, newsreels were a part of movie-going and could capture all the important events of the day - and seen on the (very) big screen. The PBS series American Experience showed just how far precautions were taken to present him as able-bodied. Although she would have been very young, perhaps allmymarbles remembers from her earlier years?
With regard to Mr McCain, he does appear very stiff, as if corseted or wearing body armour. I don't think this is particularly problematic, but given his age and the risk of cancer, that would be (and is) a concern. Perhaps a full scale medical examination (physical and cognitive) should be mandatory; it would be for health insurance, to ensure that there were no pre-existing conditions.
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97, allmymarbles wrote:
The reaction to McCain has to do with his age, rather than his disabilities. He looks and acts like an old man. FDR was vital.
______
Agreed; and my sincerest apologies to Brit-ish, I never meant to offend.
It is just mind-boggling how pretentious the whole process is ; and how silly it appears at times when one watches the candidates tip-toeing around all the media mine fields.
Taking the gloves off - betcha !
A wink is as close as it gets...
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103, David.
PBS can say whatever it likes. The grapevine is a wonderful thing. Everyone knew how serious FDR's problem was. We also knew he had a long-time mistress. That never appeared in the news either.
The problem was FDR's, not ours.
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99 Fritz Kraut
Someone, possibly Ed, posted a link here a couple of days ago, to an article about McCain in a state newspaper. The article was dated 1989 and complained that it was about time McCain stopped punting himself as an ex POW and war hero in order to reinvent himself after the Keating scandal. Now that was 20 years ago and he's still singing the same story.
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While we're talking about FDR, in retrospect, he
was a perfect symbol for the country. While essentially
wheelchair-bound, he was able to chart the course of
one of the most difficult periods in this country's history.
Many Europeans may not be aware of Roosevelt's
intellect. It is said that he would play a game with
visitors to the White House. If they picked two counties,
one on the East Coast, and one on the West Coast,
and drew a straight line between those two points
with a ruler, he could (without looking at the map)
describe what politicians were running in each
county, and what the issues were in each election.
If you understand how big this country is, and how
many counties are in it, that's quite an accomplishment.
Of course, a lot of people absolutely hated him.
But, in some sense, we need someone like that
today.
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98
Well, yes, but having fought hard over discrimination against disabled people for a long time, and because I've suffered from it because my disabilty is visible too, I get touchy about it.
I remember someone telling me he disliked David Blunkett (our blind minister) because he didn't look directly at the camera and didn't seem to blink much. He apparently didn't know he was blind until I told him.
It didn't stop him being ridiculed and pilloried mercilessly (there was even a 15 minute radio satirical musical written about him which was hilarious) over a very silly relationship over which he had to resign, but any aspersions connected with his blindness was seriously off limits.
I think sometimes, there's too much curiosity and too much speculation about the medical condition of presidents. No-one speculates much on the degree of megalomania which must figure pretty largely in the psyche of polticians running for president or PM.
I'm just old-fashioned (or British) enough to think that the image should be less important than the policies or ability, which I suppose Fritz was really getting at.
What was the name of that Senator who finally retired at age 102 or something? Strom Thurmond? I thought Americans liked old politicians. Same as old news anchors. Old actors . . .
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Strom Thurmond lived to a ripe old age, and was
quite the ladies' man, too.
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Here in India, Most of our politicians are quite old (they're atleast in their mid 40s minimum). Our PM is 76 years old now. The previous one was 71 years. So here it's a monopoly of old people in politics.
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108, british-ish.
Old politicians are fine with us if they are not so impaired that they cannot function. And people age differently. My next-door neighbor just turned 106. It is only in the last two or three months that got a companion to help him out. Before that he took care of his house, went shopping and was always clean and neat. His sister died at 103.
Some people are practically finished when they reach 70. McCain does not appear to be like my neighbor. I am loath to entrust my country to him.
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#105. allmymarbles: "PBS can say whatever it likes. The grapevine is a wonderful thing. Everyone knew how serious FDR's problem was."
With the greatest respect, you were only eleven when FDR died and not even born when he first became President, so I can't see that you can state positively that "everyone knew" how serious was his disability. From what I have read, it was almost like the "D notice" in Britain of earlier times, an understanding by the press not to reveal sensitive matters. The relationship between King Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson is an example. Apparently the press rarely, if ever showed FDR in a wheel chair or even his legs. The PBS programme was very detailed; if it runs again, you should see it. They don't forge the films they show!
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A few more thoughts on FDR.
While not perfect or free from controversy, he was sold short by the 'second rate intellect and first rate personality' characterization recently repeated in Krauthammer's editorial.
During WWII an aide described FDR (recollected from c.1940?) as an accomplished waterman who could row a straight course while looking back in uninterupted conversation with others.
Churchill had great admiration for him as well, citing forward looking vision and understanding.
He was distinguished by vitality, intellect and optimism that outshone his handicap even as he was carried to and from vehicles behind a screen of security men.
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To return to the original question about this evening, Obama was warmly cool - or maybe even coolly warm. Again he was elegant, presidential and calm.
Sadly for McCain, the visual aspect again did him no favours and it was disconcerting that he wandered around the podium whilst Obama was speaking, which showed an irritating lack of discipline.
The moderator was even worse than the previous two.
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Er, perhaps this might be a good time to stop digging :-D
"He was, however, self-conscious about being a cripple and would go to great lengths to make himself appear normal ."
[My italics]
From what I've read, I don't think he was in private. It was the public perception the people around him were worried about.
Well, it's all done with sun lamps, Grecian 2000 and makeup now, isn't it? Must have been a lot easier in the days of black and white (oops, sorry, monochrome) film and TV.
See how careful one has to be?
(Apology accepted, Fritz. It's just that the mods constantly rejecting my post -- which originally contained a joke at my own expense, by the way, and which they wouldn't pass either -- made my comment rather more terse when it was rewritten to try to get it through than it started.
Oh, and David: my grandmother knew. I remember her telling me. She never travelled more than about 10 miles from home (a small market town in the UK) until she was in her 70's. So it must have been pretty widely known.
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McCain's frequent references to long-dead former politicians does him no favours and only draws attention to his age.
He mentioned President Reagan in loving terms several times - but I believe that this affection was not returned by the Reagans who never forgave McCain for abandoning his first wife and the manner of his doing it.
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This is an interesting link to CNN showing how dishonest McCains claim that BO received record funding from the 2 FMs actually were. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/07/fact-check-did-obama-get-second-most-money-from-freddie-and-fannie/
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#117, David_de_Jong, I have no doubt that they
were both in bed with Freddie and Fanny (and
I hesitate to draw conclusions about that...)
Unfortunately, neither candidate has been
forthcoming with regards to the financial position
that this country is in, and what will be necessary
to correct it.
That's one reason why I'm not enthusiastic about
either candidate. Those looking for a messiah
will have to wait just a little bit longer...
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[GROWL]
It's not a handicap; it's a disabilty. A handicap is thinking you know all about Russia because on a clear day you can see it from Alaska. (At least it ought to be.)
114: I thought Tom Brokaw was fine; I don't know who actually chose the questions, but as (I think) a Daily Telegraph journalist pointed out on Radio 5, they gave the candidates too easy a way of just coming out with the election slogans they've been using for months.
There was one about 'the vision thing' which someone on R5 said was really asking for a 'poetic' (I'd have said 'inspirational' or at least 'rousing') reply and had obviously been included for that purpose, but both of them avoided it and gave prosaic answers which I've completely forgotten. A very bad missed opportunity by both of them.
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118 guns
This post on a CNN thread about Palins impromptu press conference should give you the answer regarding a Messiah.Is this a true representation of how a number of Americans see the situation? It's this type of attitude that sometimes makes me doubt the wisdom of a universal franchise. :)
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Sorry, I forget the post.
Go Palin - You Go Girl !!! Don't be scared of these media reporters - they know nothin!!!!!!
Jesus has pulled you into the election to serve all of us underprivileged and we all women are with you along with Jesus and Mary to take us out of this economic crisis?.
Thank God - our nation has such great leaders and visionaries - I care less for this old man (he is extinct in 2 years hopefully) - WOMEN RULE!!!
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118, gunsandreligion:
I rather agree. I'd want to put a cross in the box for 'none of the above'.
(Or stick a pointy thing into a hole, or press a button or whatever you do over there instead of using a nice simple blunt pencil and a piece of paper.)
I can't really see that that debate advanced either one of them, though the pundits will no doubt be saying otherwise throughout the day.
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David_de_Jong, yes there are people like that here.
You have to realize that Americans are at an earlier
stage of cultural development than you Brits (or
whatever you are.) But, let's take the Brits as an
example. They are a highly literate folk. That insulates
them from foolishness like fundamentalism. But,
they weren't always that way, although they probably
sent witch-burners to another hemisphere when
the Royal Navy was in full bloom.
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WHY WHY WHY DOES THE QUESTION NEVER GET ANSWERED?!!!
mccain always spins his question right back to one of his generic obama attacks filled with his coined catch phrases, or makes irrelevant refferences to his record on other issues. i have not heard one real answer from him. almost all his answers have "earmarks", 'enough about wallstreet, i want to talk about main street', "cronyism" (what is that!!??), and "i have a clear record of reaching accross the isle".... to the likes of lieberman.... yea, great name drop john.
in fairness, obama has not answered many questions yet either, and he uses a few catch phrases too but he atleast talks about the issue in the present.
but forget who i think is worse at it. i really want to know why the questions never get answered, and the moderators allow the candidates to deviate strait to generic campaign retoric?
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#122, I don't know how politics in this part of the
world got ossified the way it did. I blame TV for it.
But, another way to look at it is that we can't fix
anything until it has completely collapsed. In that
way, we are no different than the Russians.
The difference between us and, say, the Argentinians,
is that we can pull together in a crisis. This is
notwithstanding the fact that we have the most
incredibly stupid ruling class in the entire world.
It really helps if we have an external enemy to
blame. That seems to be necessary in our case.
Otherwise, we turn on each other.
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121:
I'm bedazzled. No, I mean dazed. Now we know whose side the son and his mother are on, who is the father rooting for, I wonder?
Oh, which visionaries would they be? Gandhi? Mandela? Marx (any one of them), Hobbes, Locke, Thomas Paine, William Blake?
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89. Fritz,
I would think that the same elctorate that would vote for Obama strictly because he is black could look to McCain's Mini-Me appearance and decide that it actually has something relevant to do with his ability to lead the country.
You may debate the fact that serving his country, getting shot down and staying true to his belief in his fellow servicemen makes him honorable or a hero, but if you're questioning whether any of those things happened, you should provide some evidence to support the claim.
For all who continue to try and convince themselves that McCain's war injuries and melanomas are indicators that he'll croak soon, I'd like to point a couple things out. There isn't a inch of McCain's old wrinkled body that isn't checked regularly and his skin cancer has a very high survival rate when caught early. The second point is that every single one of you that bring this up would have supported Bill Clinton for a 3rd term in office if he were constitutionally able to serve another. Even if you would have known that all those McDonalds cheeseburgers had clogged his arteries and he was one cholesterol filled heartbeat away from cashing in.
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"Obama can not begin an answer with a snappy yes or no, he has to change gears", you have said (you're right). That's because he is a thoughtful, inclusive politican, not a black-or-white kind of guy like Pres.Bush. Americans will eventually vote for Obama because they are fed up with simplistic thinking
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#124, ear-to-the-ground, the reason why questions
never really get answered is that we have political
parties. I'm sure that in other parts of the world
political parties serve some useful purpose, but
here they are essentially armies of drones sent out
by the political establishment to use FUD (that's
"Fear Uncertainty and Doubt" to you non-computer
folks) to get us to vote for their appointed leaders.
If you ever get a chance to rent a movie by
John Carpenter entitled They Live, you'll understand.
And, all this time we thought that the North Koreans
invented brainwashing!
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108, british-ish.
In opposition to the notion that an American politician shoulld be easy on the eyes, have charm and all that good stuff, New York's most famous mayor was abnormally short, maybe five feet tall, and a very far cry from handsome. He also had a lisp. He ran first as a Republicant and then as an independent.
He could have run on a laundry ticket. He was adored.
Harry Truman ran against the handsome and urbane Thomas Dewey (who had an outstanding record and a very pretty wife). Good old Harry (with his prune-lipped, Washington-hating wife) clobbered him.
The governor of New York was recently run out of office and the lieutenant governor took over. He is a nonprepossing man who is also almost totally blind. He is also black. He is turning out to be both wise and level-headed. We think he will be elected to fill the spot permanently.
Maybe as voters we are not so dumb after all.
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116 eightypercent
Re: the Reagan connect........ spot on apart from the term *affection*?
Apparently Nancy and Ronald Reagan, after the circumstances and indecent haste in which the first Mrs McCain was cast aside, provided tremendous support for her in more ways than one. One doubts there was or ever has been any subsequent affection showed towards JM since?
Question..... so, in providing such a clear link(s) of endearment to Ronald Reagan tonight - is this factual reality or political expediency?
I am not particularly comfortable in raising this additional point, I admit, but Michelle Obama has been pitched and dragged into the limelight and I believe she has aquitted herself with flying colours thus far. The sternest of tests. What shines through is the bond and the clear husband; wife; family ethos and state of *in communicado* between the two of them.
I like the look of Cindy McCain. But just looking at the body language between JM and herself these last weeks, yes, whilst she certainly seems to be loyal to the core / cause on camera, I am sorry, but I cannot help getting vibes of her role being that of a lady close to hand holding the presentational rosettes cushion, under JMs orders.........
Mmmmm, I'd love to be a fly on the wall out of the public gaze. I sense she is very high on the list for deserving a Long Service and Good Conduct medal herself - from the very day she was *chased around that hors d,heuvres display, wherever.
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McCain's gruffness and repeated use of 'my friend' was off putting. No priorities from McCain, when asked by an overbearing moderator who seemed unable to equally divide time for follow up responses from Obama. Obama was polished and explained his policies, pushed back on McCain and was not nasty. McCain just seemed to be saying 'trust me' in light of eight years of failed policies.
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I listended to the debate on the radio, so (obviously did not see any pictures).
JM seems to have an issue where whenever he starts talking about national sec. he starts talking is a hushed voice. Very Odd IMO.
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112, David.
I was 15 and I wasn't deaf. Everything was talked about at the dinner table and the adults were always gossiping about government among other things. I grew up, not in a vacuum, but surrounded by older people who did not chase children away to their rooms.
I may not have been interested at the time except in a vague way. bit I certainly was familiar with the prominent figures they were talking about. I also heard stories of police corruption and how the mafia operated. On and on. We were a very talkative family.
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Ms. Marbles, you must have grown up in a mid-atlantic
state.
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FDR really screwed up at Yalta though. We just got over that meeting by 1987! Phew!
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I don't think either side "won" this debate, but then the stakes they were playing for were very different.
Obama just needed not to lose. He was essentially playing for a score-draw rather than going for the knock-out. He was certainly less impressive than I'd hoped, but the performance was enough to keep his supporters onside and continue to appeal to the undecided.
On the other hand, McCain is a long way behind in the polls now. Nationally, state-by-state, whichever way you count it he has a mountain to climb, and he despeartely needed a win. The fact that he didn't get one means that he'll have picked up very few of the undecideds, and I'd be astonished if there were any sort of a McCain bounce as a result of the debate.
Overall (out of 10)
Obama 6
McCain 6
Overall score
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Ms. Marbles, you could also have grown up in Chicago.
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125:
"It really helps if we have an external enemy to blame."
Yes, I noticed. Both of them were at it. 'Foreign oil' (i.e Saudi Arabia?) China, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, and, from Obama (!) that old standby Osama Bin Laden.
I was talking to a friend (French) last night, and we suddenly realised that none of that 700 billion seems to have been used for anything yet.
It's almost as though, now it's been voted, the fat lady's sung, and it's all over. So let's have a witch hunt and get somebody from Lehmans and AIG tied to the stake . . .
Thinking back to one or two other posts, I think I'd describe it in an old medical term: "General Paralysis of the Insane."
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Agree with Justin that Obama should give short, snappy answers which sum things up quickly and sharply, eg Health care IS a right. Everyone should have it. My proposals will give it to millions of people who don't have it and cut costs for everyone. McPalin's proposals will mean millions of Americans will lose health care from their employers but still won't be able to afford to buy it themselves.
If he does that next week then this campaign is over.
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I must retire now, good night all.
Let's hope that some intellectual bolt of lightning
hits all of these political candidates so that they
suddenly acquire wisdom in their sleep.
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# 131
BillTyrone - and I agree with you completely about Cindy McCain. I worry about her.
Mind you, there are some posters here - and Badboy Sam started it - who had to be sent to the naughty stair last night because of their excitement over Michelle.
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I listened rather than watched as it was late and I'd taken my lenses out, so what I was left with was the tone of the voices as well as the content, and on tone Obama had the better of the debate: McCain sounded a little desperate, especially with his constant need to refer to 'my friends' and his allusions to Reagan and Theodore Roosevelt. It cast him as living in the past. He should have remembered the phrase attributed to Aristotle:
O my friends, there is no friend.
On susbstance as well, Obama had greater fluency overall. On balance I felt he had clearly won this debate. It was a better performance from him than the first one, though I do wonder why he did not connect the need for public transport infrastructure investment with the battle against global warming and the support of the economy. McCain's answer on this issue was utterly simplistic and one-dimensional ... go nuclear.
Overall, last night did McCain no favours, rather it will only confirm the present drift. I'd really like to see some recent poll numbers for Louisiana: the question is becoming not whether Obama will win, but by how much.
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From CBS: "A full 72 percent of those [independent voters] surveyed said they remained uncommitted afterwards, while those who said they decided split about evenly between the two."
I suspect it's going to be back to the personal attacks, if that's the case.
I doubt if either side will draw the conclusion that I would: that a bit more depth and elucidation of policies might persuade more voters to their cause.
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I didn't see or hear the debate. Maybe at the weekend.
#67 AndreainNY
Obama may be referring to the 1948/51 Convention on Genocide which has been ratified by almost all members of the UN.
It is the probable reason why the UN decided what was happening in Darfur was not genocide.
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142 - 131 ninetyninepercent
Be reassured eighty, that my motives are solely focused on the issue of the First Lady - In - Waiting and what the old antenna have been flagging up watching humans in action.......
Bill
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Having just been guilty of quoting a poll, it's struck me that there are really too many of them, too often.
Why the CBS one strikes me as more credible than CNN's, for example, I'm not sure, except that the latter had a rather small sample. Less than 1000 respondents is generally thought not to be really safe for drawing conclusions from.
But I'd like to add to MarkfromOxford's comment. There's a well-known phenomenon in elections where voters who may have stated an apparently firm preference beforehand find, once they are in the voting booth, that atavism takes over. I can't help thinking that might be very pronounced in this election.
I'm not referring to a racial element (though it perhaps ought not to be discounted altogether) but more that fear of the future and fear of uncertainty, might drive many to vote for what just at that moment seems 'safe'. Even 'one dimensional'.
And, if the personal attacks continue, that might well be McCain.
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145:
If I remember correctly, he referred to a 'moral obligation' to intervene even if, strictly speaking, US national interests were not involved.
It doesn't seem in the current climate that any candidate for the presidency would risk even a passing reference to the UN, or any international convention, even, such has been the constant propaganda against them over the last six or seven years in the US.
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I believe McCain always manages to keep the American audience on his side with tales of his national service and continually addressing everyone as "my friends". But I believe a lot of his policies are just purely speculative. He never uses facts and figures to back up his arguements as Obama does, he relies on his "experience" and gut instinct. What really annoyed me was when Obama talked of McCain wanting to "bomb bomb bomb" Iran, McCain's rebuttle was it was a joke with another veteran. That is one hilarious joke.
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Assessing McCain a a minus, I raise two issues concening Obama:
Does he really think that Iran is a threat?
This is a serious misconception fostered by Israeli propaganda! I welcome posters who would address the issue.
Where does he get this attack Pakistan line? From George Bush? Who are his advisors here?
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# 149
Some may recall a Nazi song:
"Bomben auf Engeland!
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People who believe that George W. Bush has been running America for the last eight years live in cuckoo land.
The reality is that the likes of Cheney,Rumsfelt,Powell(who got fired for being competent) and a bunch of neo conservatives and lobbyists in Washington have been pulling George W. Bush's strings.
Both McCain and Obama advocate change at the highest level in Government so why dont they declare at this point who the senior members of their cabinet will be if elected.
The American people can then make up their minds who they want to run the country.
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Sorry, off topic for this thread, but I see that the UK is now taking action to prop up 8 banks. Robert Preston's articles are always useful reading, but I think this sums up the solution best.
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"Why doesn't anyone ask Mr. Obama about his circle of friends that have endorsed him? Also his ex pastor in whom he sat under the teaching for 20+ years that is clearly an America hater and a white hater?"
If you right wing Americans allowed just a tiny titbit of self criticism, you might be able to see that America really isn't all it's supposed to be. This pastor just points out some truths that may be hard to swallow for most Americans, but that are true nonetheless. Until you Americans face these truths about yourselves and your precious country, you will just keep asking yourself why the rest of the world hates you and start hating the rest of the world in return.
Your government, especially the Republicans, have been lying to you about geopolitics for years, concentrating on mostly non-existing enemies and threats without, while neglecting the immense flaws within the American system.
Now the point is, if you keep calling people enemies whose main fault is that they were not born in America and feel no great need to become Americans, you shouldn't be surprised that you are not very well liked after a while.
Reagan should have gone to jail for his part (or lack of it!) in the Iran-Contragate scandal, but he got away with it because he got you people soooooo scared of the terrible communists. Instead you right-wing basket cases go after Bill Clinton for having an extramarital affair. Get your priorities right, please.
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46, NDPNDNTTHNKR
Yeah, because eliminating one terrorist is worth it, even if creates thousands more.(Sarcasm) Making facile analogies like Osama=Hitler shows a lack of comprehension concerning two very different conflicts.
People need to understand that collateral damage hurts our cause. The reason we're winning in Iraq and losing in Afghanistan is the difference in tactics.
In Iraq, we avoid collateral damage(now), even in "troops in contact situations."
In Afghanistan the best propaganda/recruting tool our enemies have is the nigh indiscriminate killing of civilians through collateral damage.
Bin Laden is just one man. Islamic extremism will survive without him.
So yes, NDPNDNTTHNKR, I am deadly serious.
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152
I think that as that won't happen, one has to look at the intellectual ability of the candidates to make the correct choices. So far, McCain has failed dismally by choosing a running mate for tactical reasons rather than functional ones.
The problem with these debates is that we are looking for specific answers to complex and dynamic situations.
I'm more interested in how they would approach various areas of policy, rather than in instant, potted solutions. We forget, as you point out, that POTAS depends on a variety of advisors and cabinet members to actually implement policy. In that regard, I reckon Obama is way ahead as he actually seems to consider his options rather than having a predetermined approach based on existing prejudices.
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Iran is supposed to be building a nuclear weapons program. Israel already has nuclear weapons, but has never confirmed this, nor has it allowed any weapons inspections. So Why is Iran seen as more of a threat than Israel? Because Iran does not do what Bush wants him to do?
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With regard to the nuclear issue. Does anyone else notice the irony in Americans fighting to maintain their right to bear arms, whilst reserving the right to deny the same to individual nations?
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The economic meltdown, the vp/presidential debates and the hollywoodesque performance of the candidates.... all of this going on right now.....It's the best reality show that I've seen ever!!
has anyone checked the ratings?
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#154
Jim, I'm reminded of a scene in the Eddie Murphy/Nick Notle film 48 Hours (one of the few EM films I can still watch without cringing), where Murphy's character comes out with the immortal line:
"I'm your worst nightmare, a n****r with a badge!"
Whether they admit it or not, the Right are terrified that a black man is going to change "their" America.
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Two would be captains of the Titanic neither of which has a chart let alone gives a clue that he would know how to navigate if he did. While the Titanic may go nowhere, either has more than enough hot air to keep it bouyant now that's it's obvious it hit an iceberg.
How nice to know both would ignore the UN. Each says he'd be tougher on Russia than his opponent. Obama is back to attacking Pakistan while McCain sticks to his warning not to talk about it, just do it. McCain would not talk to Iran without preconditions while Obama would sit down and talk with them to tell them that if they don't capitulate the US is ready to "take whatever action is required to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons."
Obama has no fix for Social Security or Medicaire while McCain wants a commission to study it and come up with recommendations. Both have energy plans...try everything. Minor differences on health insurance and taxes which hardly matters because neither has a clue as to how to fix the economy. Both blame the other's party for the problem and for the pork in the Federal budget. Which one is right in his criticisms of the other? Both of them. I might just sit this one out as none of the four in either party are qualified to be President IMO. We're in for a rough ride these next four years.
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McCaine and his verbal "my friends" motif, were really beginning to get on my nerves, but aside from that, he lost this debate comprehensively.
McCain lost my complete respect when he referred to Obama as "that one" during the debate. If that sort of language isn't patronising, I don't know what is. Not only is he completely out of touch with the American people, he's a complete buffoon as well, and last night's debate left everyone in no doubt of that.
Obama clearly won the first debate, but he CRUSHED McCain in this one, which has been borne out by the figures on the CNN opinion poll taken immediately after the debate.
All I can say to McCain is keeping digging that hole "my friend", because it's getting wider and wider by the minute. What a woeful individual.
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#150 Xie_Ming
The problem with Iran is not just the government. In that I include Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the elected 'government' and the Ali Khamenei and the Supreme Council which supersedes it.
The Revolutionary Guard (IRG) has a lot of power and sometimes seems to act without the knowledge of or even against the wishes of the 'government', although that is largely speculative. How much they are under the Supreme Council's control is another issue.
The point is, does anyone know if the IRG could spin off their own weapons program from peaceful nuclear development ?
I don't know that we do. As long as we don't, Iran remains dangerous.
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#157 paul939
India also has nuclear weapons and the USA has just made a special accommodation for India outside the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.
It's a question of who is most threatening to the USA.
Do you think India is ?
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#38, 59
Thnaks Guys,
Right now I have to spend my time keeping as many of those working folks in work as I can. I wish it were as simple as my own life being off track. Unfortunately it isn't and I find myself using skills that I wish I could have retired without ever using again.
Guns, if I had a Bugatti you would be welcome to it. You are welcome to borrow my Ram any time. And yeah, it's got a hemi. My wife's car, I have to ask to drive. Good luck on that one. It isn't a Bugatti either. But it is German, and very, very fast.
Pax vobiscum,
Sad Sam
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ref #154
Well as a minority I think it is fair tto question Obama's association with Rev Wright. He isa racist and a selective anti-semite, he does hate Jews. Racist moslems like Farahkan are fine
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Obama won the second debate or at least held his own.
My only complaint iy was not a true Town Hall Meeting format.
It was far too structured.
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#158 David_de_Jong
The American position on their citizens' possession of arms has always struck me as a glaring example of realpolitik painted as principle.
Those advocating the right do not seem to press very hard (please, any Americans awake correct me where I go wrong) for US citizens to be allowed to have explosives or artillery or anything like that.
Why is that ? If this is an issue concerning freedom, why should you be free to have a handgun but not a few pounds of C4 ?
On stopping others from having weapons - Why would you not stop your enemies from having WMD if you can ? That's not just an American principle, it is shared by most of the World.
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80. LadyBobbieBea:
No. 76
Every time I inadvertently and regretably read something you wrote, I feel like you sneezed on me.
********************
Opposing viewpoints can be difficult to hear.
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#164 Chillo
I'm an Indian myself, so it's pretty obvious for me to say that India poses o threat to the US. I still think that the threats from Iran are exaggerated and are mainly aimed at preventing Israel from bombing it's facilities. The US has a lot more worse enemies than Iran.
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#170 paul939
I don't want to be disingenuous - I knew you were Indian.
I made a point about Iran in #163, do you disagree with that ?
The problem for governments dealing with possession of WMD is that they have to be wary of the slightest risk.
At the moment, the highest risk is probably from terrorist action. I always thought that those who said Saddam Hussein had WMD but no delivery capability were being stupid with the lives of others. A suitcase is a delivery method.
It's why I supported the Iraq War - although not everything that the UK/USA did in the aftermath.
Exactly like John McCain.
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Off topic but one of the least reported stories is the Voter fraud going on in Ohio and Nevada.
First this is not the Obama campaign or the Democratic party.
But Acorn is abusing with the help of the Dem Secretary of State the register and vote the same day. These individuals are not giving valid proof of their residency and they are not being investigated.
In Nevada they tried to register Dallas Cowboy football player IDs
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122. british-ish wrote:
"I rather agree. I'd want to put a cross in the box for 'none of the above'."
You summed up the debate for me right here.Someone above said "Where's the beef?" Another of the finer points was the timing and multitude of questions,....hello, the timer! The forever stump speech'n rants. BS
I was tired of the "my friend" and found myself screaming at the TV, 'I am not your friend'. Then the condesending smiles from Obama,.. stop the smile and be serious!!
My summary, it was Obamas to lose as McCain't in it. He didn't lose, though I don't see the win for him that others here did. Not a straight answer from either, on some questions none at all.
The questioners won, and I'd like to hear the ones they didn't get to have asked.
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145. chill0:
#67 AndreainNY
Obama may be referring to the 1948/51 Convention on Genocide which has been ratified by almost all members of the UN.
It is the probable reason why the UN decided what was happening in Darfur was not genocide.
**********************************
He specifically mentioned the Congo and Rwanda.
Obama said, at least hypothetically, which is how he often approaches things, that America has an obligation to intervene if we have the ability and genocide is occuring and that we should mobilize the internatinal community.
He still believes that other countries would graciously step in to help us and that other leaders share his world view. Extremely naive.
McCain rightly said (maybe in a previous debate?) that China and Russia could not be counted on the do the right thing.
It was a perfect example of democrats' mistakenly joining every conflict and republicans' acting with more caution that was outlined in that Foreign Affairs article.
IMO Obama's on thin ice when it comes to using force. He opposes it in Iraq, where it's still needed, but is ready to use it in too many other places.
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# 163 # 170
The IRG IS a problem. So would be a Nazi or communist organization .
However, the IRG is NOT Iran.
This is the aniversary of the downfall of the East German regime. All it took was people walkng out of a church in Leipzig with candles, saying "we ARE the people". People poured out of the apartment blocks and joined them and the regime fell.
The regime claimed to govern in the name of the people.
The Iranian regime claims to govern in the name of God. All the people need to do is to proclaim that "God is everywhere and within me".
Supplement the ideology with trade, diplomatic exchange and satellite antennas.
The Israeli propaganda has stopped the US regime from sending diplomatic representaives until after the election.
Look at the map and at a little history and you will see that Iran is our best potential ally in the Middle East and against Russia!
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170. paul939:
#164 Chillo
I'm an Indian myself, so it's pretty obvious for me to say that India poses o threat to the US. I still think that the threats from Iran are exaggerated and are mainly aimed at preventing Israel from bombing it's facilities. The US has a lot more worse enemies than Iran.
***********************
You shouldn't underestimate the concern of this Administration about another attack. It's been the central theme of defense since 9/11.
I believe its thinking is that were an unfriendly regime to gain access to nuclear weapons, the risk of their being used against the US is very high.
That's the concern about Iran.
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Justin, Obama skewers McCain.
Here it is, the clearest example you could get of a knockout blow, which had McCain reeling, and for debating scholars, is a brilliant example of, as Newsweek's Richard Wolffe puts it, the "shiv":
Obama: Senator McCain suggests that somehow you know I'm green behind the ears [sic] and you know I'm just spouting off and he's somber and responsible.
McCain: Thank you very much.
Obama: Senator McCain, this is the guy who sang, "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran," who called for the annihilation of North Korea. That I don't think is an example of "speaking softly."
Masterful, memorable manoeuvre.
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This debate has firmly placed Obama in the driving seat. He had his facts at his finger-tips and showed he could level with his opponent convincingly. McCain kept trying to talk down to Obama but the cool response he got evidently unnerved him. Obama has built up a substantial lead and should mange to romp home with the Presidential prize come November. One could detect a strain inrelations between Obama's wife and McCain's wife from the body language after the debate!
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I've heard increasingly that the US thinks it has the best workers in the world. Guess what I've worked in various places around the world and they are no better or worse than the English, Dutch, Germans, Chinese etc etc.
This is no time for nationalistic back patting. There are serious issues that need addressing that will all require some sacrifices from everyone, CEO's included, to dig ourselves out of this mess. I think Obama's take on 'fairness' should be built on as it will unite the country.
MaCain - all seems to hang around a 20th century notion of military power and a small group of wealthy people being the solution to everything.
The choice is between power being held by a few or power being shared amonst many.
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#175 Xie_Ming
I think the fact that the last lot of American diplomats in Tehran were imprisoned for over a year might have soured US diplomats on that posting.
The usefulness of Iran as an ally is not lost on the USA. It's why they supported the Shah - unfortunately past his sell-by date.
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#174 AndreainNY
There is a strong case for the use of an international force in Darfur. I may have mentioned that before.
It is a classic of the world doing nothing while people die. Politicians can easily prevaricate by saying it's a UN problem or an AU problem. It's almost what those organisations are for.
Congo is a nightmare that can probably only solve itself. The last lot of UN peacekeepers there became part of the problem.
Bill Clinton said that Rwanda was his worst foreign policy mistake. I would not be surprised - given his attitude to Kosovo - if he just said that because it cost him little but carried a high moral tone.
Therein lies a problem for Democrats in foreign policy - particularly 'liberal' (in the American sense) Democrats.
If you are going to found domestic policy on morality - 'It's not just politically pragmatic, it's rightthat everyone has healthcare / social security / a house / whatever' then if you stop at your own borders, you are making US citizens more important than all others in the world.
In political pragma - they are, they are your electors - but in the absolutes of morality, how can they be ?
I believe that's why Jimmy Carter tried to have an 'ethical' foreign policy.
Joe Biden plainly shares this moral view of the world. I congratulate him for it. I am not sure the American electorate agrees.
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# 174 Andrea
Bunkum.
Obama knows how low America's standing in the world has dropped and he knows - and says - that the only way that it will be able to persuade its natural allies back on board will be through moral decision-making and diplomacy.
If America elects a president who tries to bully through aggression its leadership of the developed world is finished.
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I was very happy with the way the debate went as an Obama supporter. For the first time I thought, I really want this guy to be president.
He does have a tendency to ramble in a filibustering way. The dependent clauses keep adding up as the sentence breaks down. He must be doing this to increase his face time, and it's annoying.
Obama may have had the most worthwhile line of the campaign so far: no nation has retained military superiority while losing economic superiority.
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"And a small child shall lead them." Everyone is scared in the dark forest we find ourselves in. Everyone is looking for a messiah to show them the way out. Both candidates and their VP running mates are cluless, just as lost as everyone else no matter how much confidence they exude. Both would likely lead us deeper into the forest than out of it. There are bears out there, very dangerous ones. There are those who are armed with military weapons like the Russians and those who are armed with financial weapons like the Wall Street traders. Which bears are more dangerous? I'd put my money on the wall street bears. They have the power to bring the entire world to its knees in a matter of days or hours but unlike the Russians who have mere armaments, the Wall Street bears will not hesistate to use their power no matter what the consequences.
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# 179 - a welcome post from VardaNova - which I read after just seeing that Middle East Stock Markets are plunging by 10 - 20%.
We have global chaos.
America is rudderless and its century as a world icon may have been finished off by George Bush and his administration.
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#179 VardaNova
Barack Obama's take on 'fairness' is designed to win him the election.
In Britain in the 1960s/early 70s, the top rate of tax was 95% - the Beatles wrote a song about it because they suffered from it.
The chancellor (treasury secretary) famously used the phrase that he was going 'tax the rich until the pips squeaked'. It didn't work.
The best government is inclusive of all people. Working together means just that. All this squawking about Wall Street bonuses and almost everything Nancy Pelosi says is the politics of envy.
Dare I say we've been there and done that. There's a better way.
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All considerations of whether to make war are trumped by the fact that starting a war you don't win is a bad idea.
It's amazing how much trouble we've gotten into by not understanding that fact.
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# 180
The USA has already decided to send diplomats to Iran- it is just being stalled until after the election.
Can Obama be ignorant of this?
Public-opinion makers need to change tune and get in line with the policy!
Intelligent people need to get ahead of the curve- with info from the BBC and with their own ideas.
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My belief is that John Mccain is factually incorrect when he said Obama advocated bombing Pakistan(which is hell of a big place)
What Obama said was that there is an enclave in North Afganistan that penetrates deep into the northern mountains of Pakistan that harbours the Taliban and terrorists.
His proposal ,supported at least by the British Government,was to increase the size of the "fighting" force from America and their partners and prior to sending in the forces into the mountainous enclave go through a systematic bombing campaign. That a bit different than the way John McCain described it and it makes perfect sense to me.
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"my Friends" don't you know to get worried when someone uses that too much?
A bit like
Oi "MATE"
Though more snake oil sales than beat you up..
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186
so do you think there could be a compromise somewhere between corporate off shore rich pay less percent tax than the poor
and
over kill 95% tax.
would be nice to explore.
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#187 RedWhiteandermblue
What does 'win' mean in a counterinsurgency war ?
If Iraq emerges with a strong democratic government, will that not be a good thing ?
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184. At 2:50pm on 08 Oct 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"And a small child shall lead them." Everyone is scared in the dark forest we find ourselves in. Everyone is looking for a messiah to show them the way out.(edit
)There are bears out there, very dangerous ones. There are those who are armed with military weapons like the Russians and those who are armed with financial weapons like the Wall Street traders. Which bears are more dangerous? I'd put my money on the wall street bears. They have the power to bring the entire world to its knees in a matter of days or hours but unlike the Russians who have mere armaments, the Wall Street bears will not hesistate to use their power no matter what the consequences.
-----------------------------------------
WOW MA I agree with this much of what you said.
I'm learning
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ref #181 and 182
The question is this (and now unfournatly I believe Obama will be our next President) how he does it.
When he spoke about the rest of the world contributing more, his listeners did not like it.
Is he going to follow a U.N lead doctrine?
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#191 jacksforge
I think you treat all people as though they are the same.
A poor guy would do what any other Wall Street trader does if he were one and he had the money.
It's just a question of opportunity.
What's needed is regulation - just like the laws that protect us most of the time - so that none of us humans gets to do anything horrible to any of the others.
Pretending that there's some special 'greedy' class of people is wrong.
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the "that one" comment
really strange.
" The one"
is always said by the right. is this the new"the one".
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@MagicKirin,
You should be VERY fortunate that Obama is looking as if he's going to be the next president and not an irrational buffoon like McCaine.
I still cannot get my head around how a senior politician can refer to a fellow congressman as "that one". In all the years that I've been following U.S. politics, I've never heard a congressman address a fellow congressman in that way.
If he's as petulant as this when he's losing a discussion, what is he going to be like when he meets foreign dignatries and the coversation isn't going his way?
Throughout the last few months, Obama has been the more articulate, the more succinct on his policies and has looked the more presidential of the two candidates. This is something that not even Republicans can deny.
Add to this a Republican VP who is so inept it is embarrassing, the Republicans have created a blueprint for an electoral disaster.
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AndreaInNY,
You are even more delusional than the last time I heard from you. The only person giving rational answers to all of the questions last night was Barack Obama, hence the reason annihilated McCain in this debate.
Not once did McCain reference the perennial financial plight of the middles classes, which tells you all you need to know about what he'd be like as president.
The bottom line is this, Barack Obama is the superior candidate, this has been borne out by the polls etc. and people like you better get used to the fact that your next president is likely to be a highly skilled and highly intellectual black man.
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"If Iraq emerges with a strong democratic government, will that not be a good thing ?"
Absolutely. But what are the chances of that? I personally think they're slim to none. Please consider: if Iraq conquered the US, installed a supposedly popular regime that was widely seen as a corrupt Iraq puppet, and then left--as it had to do, eventually, as ALL invading forces have to do--what would be the chance we would end up with a government that was pro-Iraq? Well, those are the chances Iraq will end up with a government that's pro-US.
"What does 'win' mean in a counterinsurgency war ?"
That's a good question, as is the question, as is the question of how are we going to win the Iraq war. I would suggest we shouldn't enter wars except ones where victory is both well-defined and achievable--like the first Gulf war. When this isn't the case, we squander blood and treasure to no purpose, as in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq.
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195. At 3:42pm on 08 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#191 jacksforge
I think you treat all people as though they are the same.
Thank you.
As for Greed it is there in all classes but not in all people.
There is the problem. Mc Cain is of the pure Greed type from what I see.
If those paying the smallest amount of tax per dollar earned wish to say they want to pay LESS tax. They should be called GREEDY, because that is what they are.
(5 % is mad )but given that a person with an income of 100, ooo, ooo a year would still get
50 ooo ooo a year to live on after a 50% tax rate.
Thats a lot of money. Still doing pretty well.
Most readers here would be happy for that.
Or even 1% of that 50 % left over. $500000
Are you telling me the guy at the top is worth that much more when his workers can't afford healthcare, time off?
So get off your "he's a commie " style rant.
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So I would say Chillo that pretending there is no Greedy class of people is a ikkle misleading.
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Hey ANdreainNY
go and write on Fox Blogs...it is full of people like you..
what are you doing writing to elicits eh? We value knowledge, to you we are the enemy...
go and write to FOx...
stay away from us.
People Ignore AndreainNY
It is pointless talking to this woman. She has no sense nor idea of what is happening in this country.
If you want to know where she comes from and why she sees America the way she does, go and visit fox news blogs and you will find out the McCain propaganda Machine has brainwashed these people.
Nothing can help her poor soul...not even God.
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i recommend a minute silence for JohnAAA
that republican extremists has not been heard since McCain dropped the bomb last weak.
Thus as far as BBC blog is concerned he is out cold.
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192. At 3:28pm on 08 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#187 RedWhiteandermblue
What does 'win' mean in a counterinsurgency war ?
If Iraq emerges with a strong democratic government, will that not be a good thing ?
-------------------------------
Yes. but could it have been achieved without thousands of dead?
Well even sadam was killing less per year than since the war.
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198. ezekielthemack:
AndreaInNY,
You are even more delusional than the last time I heard from you. The only person giving rational answers to all of the questions last night was Barack Obama, hence the reason annihilated McCain in this debate.
*******************
I hate to break it to you, but believing any one annihilated the other is delusional.
And by now, you should be used to "people like me" and stop reacting like a child when you hear from them.
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I wish you would have commented more on the format of the debate and it's limitations, Mr. Webb. The agreed upon one minute response time was ridiculous, too short to give any kind of thoughtful answer. If I have taken anything from the debates this election it is that the format of the debate leads to short, generalized answers. I really wish a debate would force candidates to speak about specifics, give long time for responses, and stick to one main issue. The way the debates work now, nothing ever seems to be said.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There was a comment Obama made last night about "taking money out of the system" that bothered me. My first reaction was, "Wait. Whose money is it?"
American Thinker captures what was bothering me.
The Premise of Obama's Brand of Socialism
Obama mentioned taxes in almost every question on domestic policy.
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#199 RedWhiteandermblue
The problem, as always, for the anti-Iraq War people is that you are telling me that you preferred to have Saddam Hussein remain in charge of Iraq. I ask you to think of the consequences of that with oil coming out of the ground at its current price.
Anyway, given that not only does Iraq have a popularly elected government - and it really is - and that that government has found a way to peace militarily and politically with its main tribal rival, as ever oil being the contentious issue that had to be settled - I have to say I think you are wrong.
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181. At 2:25pm on 08 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#174 AndreainNY
There is a strong case for the use of an international force in Darfur. I may have mentioned that before.
It is a classic of the world doing nothing while people die. Politicians can easily prevaricate by saying it's a UN problem or an AU problem. It's almost what those organisations are for."
Simplistic solutions rarely work and usually increase the suffering.
What shouild this international force do? Who are the enemy? The Sudanese government, the rebel groups?
Simply blundering in with guns blazing will make a bad situation worse.
"Congo is a nightmare that can probably only solve itself. The last lot of UN peacekeepers there became part of the problem."
Whatdoes this mean? That some Africans are expendable? Why are the Darfuris better people then the COngolese?
"Joe Biden plainly shares this moral view of the world. I congratulate him for it. I am not sure the American electorate agrees. "
The US electorate doesnot giove a great deal about foriegn policy full stop. But an immoral or pragmatic foreign policy has not exactly been a glittering success.
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Also, "counter-insurgency war" is an interesting concept. Who are we fighting? The insurgents. But who are the insugents fighting? They're fighting us. Logic would suggest a "counter-insurgency war" will continue until those fighting the insurgents go home. At which point the insurgents will declare victory, and rightly so.
This is I believe exactly what we have to look forward to in both Afghanistan and Iraq. It was why I was against both wars, and why the fact that we got into both wars so soon after Vietnam, and in defiance of the Powell doctrine, makes me tear my hair out.
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ref #197
I have to wonder about your objectivity calling McCain a buffoon. If I did that about Obamam, I would be accused of racism.
But my concern has to do with Obama stands; higher taxes, U.N first foriegn policy and to be blunt a lack of a resume.
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They say the British have a "dry sense of humor." I think it's so dry it shriveled up and there isn't a vestige of it left. This so called reporting Mr. Webb is not merely inadequate, it totally missed how funny this was.
B; what will your priorities be if you are elected?
M; Priorities? What priorities? I'm going to do everything all at once, I'm an American, I can do anything.
B; how will you fix the economy.
O; I'm going to tax the 5% richest and give tax cuts to everyone else.
M; I'm not going to increase anyone's taxes, we need to drill for more oil. We're sending 700 billion to Saudi Arabia to buy oil. We need to build nuclear power plants too. I'm for everything if it will get me elected.
B; How are you going to deal with Social Security and Medicare
M; Social Security is easy, we all know what we have to do. Reagan dealt with Tip ONeal, I'll sit down with the Democrats and come to an agreement. Medicare will be harder, I'll appoint a commisssion.
O; That will have to wait until my second term in office.
M; You'd leave Iraq in defeat. You opposed the surge. We're winning.
O; Iraq has 70 billion a year in oil revenue surpluses, it's money we need. They should pay us that money if they want us to stay. Besides, I've got more important things to do. I want to catch Osama Bin Laden and kill him. I don't care if it takes every soldier we've got. The war on terror began in Afghanistan/Pakistan and it will end in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
M; Don't announce it to the world that you're going to attack, just do it. You talk too much. You'd talk to anyone and everyone including Iran without preconditions.
O; First I'll cut off Iran's gasoline and force everyone to impose sanctions until it kills them. Then I'd sit down and tell them if they don't do what we tell them to, I'll blow them away. That's my idea of talking to them.
B; If Iran attacked Isreal, would you send troops right away or wait for the UN?
M; I won't be held hostage by the UN, I'd send troops immediately.
O; Russia and China would veto any strong actions against Iran. I wouldn't wait.
M; I know how to handle the Russians. I can kill more Russians than you can.
O; No you can't. I can kill more, I'm tougher.
M; Yes I can, I'll kill more.
O; No I'll kill more.
M; We're not going back to the cold war.
O; No we're not but I can still kill more of them.
B; Thank you and good night.
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"Going to work "for some means going to get a manicure and massage while contemplating
which of the options n the menu your going to eat tonight.
For others it means things like going to "work".
Now strictly speaking those nail clipping sessions are work,(for the clipper), and for the sitter, after all they have to walk to the seat sit down and then stand up at the end. WOW working.
Golf now that's always work. energy getting transferred every where.
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Andrea, this is a one party blog, apparently. We are just gatecrashers. Keep crashing.
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205
ninny just because one lives next to a silage heap for 20 years does not necessarily mean one gets used to it and no longer find it offensive.
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chill0 # 164
"It's a question of who is most threatening to the USA.
Do you think India is ?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although a little off subject because you were talking nuclear weapons, but indirectly India is the bigger threat to the USA [ and other world economies].
Recent contact with Barclays Bank and Norton- the internet antivirus protection people means one is linked to a very well spoken "colleague" of the above organisations in central India. Unfortunately they are not trained enough in their job and any basic questions concerning an account etc , can not be answered.
Perhaps the long wait for Justins' moderators in processing the replies posted
on this site is another example of out-sourcing, the jobs being sent abroad to
colleagues who are not trained in understanding true old Oxford or American English. Hence the long, long wait!
How can a reply from a well educated poster here, be refused because the moderator does not understand the use of the word "crutch" for a medical article of mobility.?
Outsourcing, with many jobs being sent abroad will directly affect the credibility of many western "family" organisations if the results are the same as above.
I guess we must all learn to accept that our grip on the ladder for our previous success
has been complicated with many more hands fighting for the rungs of the ladder, and the hoped for recovery will take somewhat longer arriving.
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man those mods must be jumpy
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AndreaInNy,
"I hate to break it to you, but believing any one annihilated the other is delusional."
************************************
Yet another glib (and very short - I wonder why?) riposte from you; you could turn glib into an art form you're that good at it.
Face facts, McCain is on the ropes, he was beaten comprehensively last night (and you and all the other Republicans know it). The fact that you choose not to admit that he lost last night, makes YOU look a lot more deluded me thinks.
I suppose the next thing you're gonna tell me is that McCain is MORE intelligent than Barack Obama. LOL
You are indeed woeful.
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212. At 5:07pm on 08 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #197
I have to wonder about your objectivity calling McCain a buffoon. If I did that about Obamam, I would be accused of racism.
------------------
Yes you would but then that goes with the long history of racially bias remarks from you.
If I were to say Obama was a baffoon , which I won't he was pretty good, not many would attack me on racism, I think.
Certainly not those that have unfortunate enough to have read previous postings by me.
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213. MarcusAureliusII
Haha. ha heh eh ha. Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!
So who you want vote for. I'm thinking of a president Obama for grins and Vice president Palin for $h!ts, call it a balanced political diet, green and gas with alot of roughage for the intestines.
Then I'm movin' to outside Sedona Arizona. Back in the seventies I rode motorcycles out there when Sedona was a ghost town, partied and slept in deserted houses. Drank in a bar that was hijacked from its owner, drinkin' free beer from 'lost' delivery trucks.
'bout sixty to seventy miles to the west is another ghost town to be discovered....
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#67
Hi, AndreainNY,
I could not agree with you more, I feel BHO appeared to be rather naive on the question
of genocide and other prickly foreign affairs issues like Pakistan. I think it showed that it would be dangerous to have a person like
him as Commander-in-Chief from the point
of view of America and the world at large. I
think on that issue McCain came out strong.
On the economic issue too John McCains
policies were more practical than the rather theoretical ones of Obama, and raising of taxes.
John McCain looked very much more like the
earnest, responsible President-in his second term!
McCain also looked very energetic (considering the age gap between him and
BHO) at the debate, more so than at previous times.
From the load of his experience and degree of commitment to his country he exposed the Achilles heel of BHO in foreign affairs at least as well as in other particular issues.
America's SECURITY comes FIRST, but that should not be taken to mean we do not set right things concerning economy and health care of the masses.
I suppose the matter about the Debate depends on the eye of the beholder, but as far as I am concerned, John McCain wins the debate convincingly, by a wide margin considering the above reasons.
above facts
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#115. british-ishDavid: "my grandmother knew. I remember her telling me. She never travelled more than about 10 miles from home (a small market town in the UK) until she was in her 70's. So it must have been pretty widely known."
All I can say is that your grandmother must have had a different "wireless" to the rest of us in the UK. Nevertheless, despite what you and Marbles say, there was a major effort to disguise FDR's disability. Most recently there was a memorial to him erected, but not before a brouhaha about whether to show his wheel chair or not. You will rarely see it in press photographs of the time. This may be of interest.
Despite that, times have changed greatly, and a physical disability is no longer seen as a weakness, so McCain's present condition may not be a concern - but it is his future condition which is. I believe that someone of his age should have a 'neuropsychological testing battery' administered to ensure that his cognitive processes are in good shape - and the result made public.
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you guys must be unemployed, you have all the time in the world to blog...
get a job
*******
Iceland is filing for bankruptcy
*******
Hope WWIII does not break out before Poland hosts Euro 2012
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#204 #211 jacksforge, RedWhiteandermblue
jacksforge you are wrong about the quantity of death in Iraq. The problem for Saddam Hussein was that he was of the Sunni centre of Iraq and the oil was in the north and the south
The Saddam government had only been stopped from continuing with large scale murder in the north and the south by the 'no-fly' zones. They had already killed at least 200,000 people over a few years. That's far more than the war killed and there were many more for him to kill.
Once the no-fly zones were lifted - and with the lifting of sanctions, they would have to come off and with clean weapons inspections, sanctions would have to be lifted - then people would have started dying again in very large numbers.
Remember Halabja ? That was part of Operation Anphal which was a massacre of Kurds. Then there was the 'cleansing' of the south after the uprising there encouraged by George H W Bush.
I have no inside information on whom the insurgents were fighting but if it was coalition forces they made an extremely poor job of it. Abu Musab al Zarqawi (Ahmed Khalayleh) and Al Qaeda in Iraq specialised in killing Shia. They would set off huge bombs on Shia pilgrimage routes. Other insurgents appear to have joined in with that.
About 80% of the Iraqis killed after active hostilities ceased were killed by insurgents.
The 'Awakening Councils' and other political initiatives and the Nouri Maliki governments military success over the Mehdi army has changed the situation completely.
The rate of killing has dropped dramatically and the Sunni insurgents and Moqtada Sadr who controls the Mehdi army are engaged in politics.
The bulk of the insurgency came originally from the stupid idea of disbanding the Iraqi army but leaving them with their weapons - and with other weapons stores open to them.
These were Saddams favoured people, the Republican Guard and the Mukhabarat who had kept him in power. The insurgency was also paid for by money from other Sunni organisations in the region who did not want the Shia in control of Iraq.
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#215. seanspa: "Andrea, this is a one party blog, apparently. We are just gatecrashers. Keep crashing."
If I recall correctly, you are quite recently from the UK, and so I am curious as to why you choose to support Mr McCain and the Republican Party. What does he, and they, have to offer you that Obama and the Democrats do not? Because of your relative newness to America and its domestic politics, perhaps you're seeing things with a less-jaundiced eye than those who have lived in the US for far longer. A fresh take on the two parties would be refreshing.
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#216 jacksforge
'ninny' ? Is that it
I am inclined to agree it's difficult to get used to.
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222. At 5:57pm on 08 Oct 2008, Scribesolomon wrote:
America's SECURITY comes FIRST, but that should not be taken to mean we do not set right things concerning economy and health care of the masses.
Just a small tip unless you have a robust economy you do not have security for what else willpay for it.
Obama nailed mCain very effectively about his outrageous Bomb bomb Iran "joke".
Apart from the idea that bombing human beings is thing to be "joked" about, it virtually entitles Iran to take action.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#217 shortputt
I'm not sure outsourcing to India is seen as so much of a problem now.
There have been security scandals - with Indians selling personaly information like bank account numbers. There have also been problems with 'cultural understanding' and basic language and accent.
Bottom line is, although the Indian call centre people may be much better educated and intelligent than their equivalents in Britain, they are not much liked to deal with. I believe that has resulted in several call centres being repatriated.
I have a good deal of personal experience of dealing with Indian call centres and although I find the people generally more reliable and easier to deal with than their UK equivalents, the quality of 'phone lines coupled with the accent of the call centre person sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.
There is also a trend to South African call centres. I'm not sure how that's going.
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And one good thing said by Justin the truth that Mc CAin IS ON DRUGS. medical prescribed but drugs none the less.
How can we be sure these do not have the same problems as steroids and other aggression raising Drugs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#214 jacksforge
You're still missing the point that they're all just the same people.
There are poor people in Africa who see you in the same light as you see the 'fat cats'.
If they sat around their camp fires in a refugee camp in Darfur and talked about someone recognisable as you - jacksforge - as some bloated capitalist living off the poverty in the world, how would you answer them ?
You are probably in the top 5% wealthiest people in the world. Are you going to apologise for it ? Or just thank God (of whatever flavour) for your good fortune ?
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Oldsouth @ 22 - you didn't need to write a whole thesis on why you can't support Obama-you just needed to mention 'BHO' as you did in the last sentence and we would understand. I know what ails people like you.
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Some interesting issues raised above. Here are some in two parts.
PART 1.
I have made comments on Asia and the approach to Iran. I have also flagged a personal, if cynical, pointer about a bogeyman culture. One conveniently embedded as top cover in pursuit of the national, brackets on, *other* US interests.
From where I am presently based in Asia, Iran is just down the road and Russia just up the road. Plenty of Iranians and Russians dotting around and Russian tv channels are as busy as ours putting out sitcoms; drama; news; Tom and Jerry and others for domestic consumption. So what?
Well, surprise, surprise, both countries, by the by, have ordinary people, domestic cultures, families, children, schools, rural, village and main street communities and exactly the same sort of aspirations and day to day needs as people in the USA and other developed nations have.
Some will say, okay, nothing strange about that and a good number of others what, really?
But, for those typing on here from the comfort of the old armchair, getting out on the ground and seeing people with absolutely nothing; zilch; zippo in a far away land focuses the mindset, big time.
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DC, that's an interesting article on FDR. The penultimate paragraph disturbed me. ?He asked the audience whether it would be possible for Roosevelt to be elected today with his degree of disability. The consensus was that he would not be elected, in large part because of press scrutiny.? Very wrong, if true.
It makes me wonder whether the press is really all it?s cracked up to be. There seems so much focus on titillation or partisanship at the expensive of real investigation journalism. The public?s right to know, as defined by the media, seems really to just be a front for the media?s right to make money from a depraved and inadequate public.
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chillo
"you are telling me that you preferred to have Saddam Hussein remain in charge of Iraq"
Preferred it to fighting a war which I believe will very likely end in failure? Yes.
Preferred Saddam in almost any other way? No.
You have stated, I think, that you believe the war is going well, and that we will achieve a good outcome, which might be termed a government not unfriendly to the United States, preferrably democratic (if you agree on that).
I hope you're right and I'm wrong. From what I can tell, unfortunately, what we'll end up doing is extending the power of Iran through a Shiite-dominated, Iran-friendly Iraq government. If we're lucky, that is. If we're not, we'll end up creating a Sunni fundmentalist state determined to attack the US.
In any event, the argument that we should have fought the Iraq war because Saddam was an evil leader is a strange one. Why him, and why not, say, Kim in North Korea? Was it because Kim had WMDs and Saddam didn't?
Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I believe the chances that both wars will prove, in the end, to be disastrous mistakes are extremely high, and should have precluded fighting them.
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ref #220
Jacky boy to paraphrase "Crying racism is the last refuge of a scoundral"
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PART 2.
After this years global financial meltdown, now fast forward ten years. The scenario is this.
China emerged from the ruins as the only global superpower. After just seven years, China had made an incredible technological breakthrough of Startrek proportions, giving it unsurpassed and unassailable global commercial and military power.
In a dramatic turn of events, China forced the USA to stop all Research and Development in this particular area of technology and had the means and power to stop, verify and impose this. End of. Ouch. And your point again here, Bill?
First, just imagine for a second, how US leaders and citizens would feel and cope with such a state of affairs? Yes, effectively being politically, militarily and domestically neutered?
Secondly, learn to take a look at life through the eyes of others. Imagine how it feels for people in other countries on this planet of ours to be dominated by another on the opposite side of the globe.
*Err, sorry about the errant missile that killed seventy at that wedding party recently and yes, we have nuclear technology that could provide electrical power for your nation but, no, you aint getting it, so tough luck*.
Back to last night. Anyone ping the McCain summary view of how the US Cavalry has been dotting around the world doing good for all? Do you also view Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in the same KGB-only mould or a man who might be proud of his heritage and actively seeking to restore a nation and its prospects? How to win friends and respect.
Well, my friends, *we reap what we sow*. The absolute fundamental is for the US to wake up to the pressing need of appreciating a changed world for what it is and start acting very differently towards other nations. The premise is inclusion; tone; understanding; effective dialogue and respect.
Whilst I am at it, no blank cheque and an anything goes policy towards Israel. This must stop. Zero nasty bias for Israelis here at all, just a view that Israel as a nation must be reigned in and subject to far greater political discipline, collective accountability and positive action than has been the case for a long, long, time.
Such an obvious truism above, yes. Any real gain without establishing a balanced regional status quo in the pursuit of a real resolution, no. Truths often hurt. The need is to take the plank out of ones own eye before tearing the speck out of someone elses.
As Churchill wrote on urgent documents, *action this day*. Mmm, strange coming from a fervent supporter of the USA who genuinely wishes to see it at the head of the top table and out of this acutely damaging and dangerous political whirlpool. Hey ho, but looking forward to President Obama clearing out the bilges and dross and getting stuck into recovery and progress on all fronts shortly.
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"225. At 6:07pm on 08 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#204 #211 jacksforge, RedWhiteandermblue
Let me set you straight about a few things:
"The Saddam government had only been stopped from continuing with large scale murder in the north and the south by the 'no-fly' zones. They had already killed at least 200,000 people over a few years. That's far more than the war killed and there were many more for him to kill."
Since the US could not count the dead its own soldiers had killed it is risible to suggest it could accurately count those killed undeer Saddam.
Iraqis however claim that the country was far more peaceful under Saddam then it has been since.
This doesnot excuse Saddam but effectively undercuts your rather inconsistent view.
"Once the no-fly zones were lifted - and with the lifting of sanctions, they would have to come off and with clean weapons inspections, sanctions would have to be lifted - then people would have started dying again in very large numbers."
Be intresting how you claim to know this. US attenmtps to read the future have not proven to be very accurate or happy.
For one thing Saddammight have been overthrown ina palace coup, as had most of his predecessors.
"Remember Halabja ? That was part of Operation Anphal which was a massacre of Kurds. Then there was the 'cleansing' of the south after the uprising there encouraged by George H W Bush.2
Indeed and there was Iraqi-Iranian war. However in all of these instances outside interfrence was clear and admitted.
Wasn't it?
You will pardon us if we roar about the Kurds, since the US has looked on benignly when Turkey has pursued them over the border.
Hallubja didn't seem to matter then.
The idea that the lives of the Kurds matters in US considerations is frankly disrespectful in the extreme.
I" have no inside information on whom the insurgents were fighting but if it was coalition forces they made an extremely poor job of it. Abu Musab al Zarqawi (Ahmed Khalayleh) and Al Qaeda in Iraq specialised in killing Shia. They would set off huge bombs on Shia pilgrimage routes. Other insurgents appear to have joined in with that."
Well I suggest you look yo basic tactics for insurgency.
There is a simple rule - collaborators die. The aim is to make the state ungovernable, and in this the insurgents have had considerable success.
Look up a book on the partisans of Russia in WWII
Or the Vietcong in the Vietnamese war.
"About 80% of the Iraqis killed after active hostilities ceased were killed by insurgents."
Yes pretty standard in these sort of conflicts.
"The 'Awakening Councils' and other political initiatives and the Nouri Maliki governments military success over the Mehdi army has changed the situation completely. "
One presumes the breathtaking ignorance that lies behind this statement means that it is not meant to be taken seriously.
But let me give you this - what do you think these councils will do with their US supplied weapons when the money runs out, as it is starting to do?
Do you think they are going to simply shrug their shoulders and go back home?
Take a look at what the militias did in east Timor or the warlords did in Afghanistan.
"The rate of killing has dropped dramatically and the Sunni insurgents and Moqtada Sadr who controls the Mehdi army are engaged in politics."
The rate of killing is till pretty high (and will climb when the money runs out) , the Kurds have de facto independence so the country is divded.
Tha leaves out the ethnic cleansing in the Kurdish areas and parts of Baghdad.
"The bulk of the insurgency came originally from the stupid idea of disbanding the Iraqi army but leaving them with their weapons - and with other weapons stores open to them. "
True
"These were Saddams favoured people, the Republican Guard and the Mukhabarat who had kept him in power. The insurgency was also paid for by money from other Sunni organisations in the region who did not want the Shia in control of Iraq."
Garbled. The iraqui army was a conscript force. You seem to be very confused.
As difficult as it is for an American to accept, many Iraqis did not like their country being invaded and being patronised as a defeated, inferior people,i ncapable of ruling themselves without American intervention.
That is in additionto thaosde who lost children and family due to American blundering.
All invaders including Napoleon and Hitler have tried to claim that in fact the local people welcomed them.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
215. seanspa:
"Andrea, this is a one party blog, apparently. We are just gatecrashers. Keep crashing."
History has shown us the terrible results of only permitting one way of thinking.
Maybe it started this way.
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202. goleooo:
"Nothing can help her poor soul...not even God. "
You know nothing about God if you invoke Him on a BBC blog because you disagree with someone.
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chillo, I saw you address my moniker, but not, I thought, my points. It's a free world after all, but I listen to what you have to say and try to address your arguments rather than lumping you with some group or other and then running that group down.
Please keep in mind that I'm no pacifist. I supported the first Gulf War, among others. I support the Powell doctrine.
I'm against the wars not primarily on moral grounds but because I continue to think, as I've thought from the beginning, that we are going to lose them. I've read very extensively on military history and believe I have a well-informed opinion (though, as I've said, I hope I'm wrong.)
Wars like these are so simple, I think, it's mind-boggling. You go in. You kill people, get killed and spend money for a while. Then you go home, and the people you're fighting declare victory.
The idea that you'll install a government friendly to you is, in the long run, a pipe dream, as a general rule. Again, if Iraq conquered the US, do you think the US would be friendly to Iraq 20 years after Iraq pulled its troops out?
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I couldn't believe one of McCain's lines on energy: "Now how - what's - the best way of fixing it? Nuclear power. Sen. Obama says that it has to be safe, or disposable, or something like that."
He went on to try and make the point that nuclear power is safe now, but I just thought taking a dismissive tone towards someone calling for safety wasn't the best tact.
Other than that, to me the debate seemed a draw or a narrow win for Obama. However, a draw is a major victory for Obama with the clock running down to November and the momentum on his side...
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seanspa (#236), did you mean "deprived"? But more to the point, just what do you suppose the press is "cracked up to be"? Newspapers (and now "new media") have always had a point of view. There is nothing wrong with that. They are private businesses selling a product. If you don't like the product, you can look elsewhere; there are lots of choices.
As for the public's "right to know," this does not constitute an obligation on the part of the press, which is a third party, to provide the knowledge. For example, I do have a right to know what my City Council is doing in their official acts. If the accounts in the newspaper are biased or incomplete, my recourse is to go to City Hall and read the minutes or attend the meetings in person.
We are fortunate, in the USA at least, to have so many sources of information available to us.
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AndreainNY, as far as your claim that Obama is
a Socialist, he is certainly a populist.
The next President will have unprecedented powers
to reshape the system, because it is collapsing.
With FDR, we were lucky, because he was basically a
capitalist, even though pretty far to the left for
a US politician of the time.
That's why every aspect of Obama's thinking
bears investigation.
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#242. AndreainNY: "History has shown us the terrible results of only permitting one way of thinking."
Which would apply equally to pro-lifers and religious zealots.
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I seem to have been referred to the mods for using the surname of a chararacter in The New Statesman played by Rik Mayall. I thought that program wa shown on the BBC as well as ITV. Oh well, I'll try again.
In answer to David Cunard, I've lived in the US for 4 years now, but I have family here so visited at least once a year since 1980.
I would describe myself as a conservative rather than a republican. I know that many democrats think that conservatives must by definition be selfish, greedy so-and-sos. I look more kindly in return. I think these democrats are naive and deluded, but well-meaning. I actually think that there is not so much difference between each side. I want as fair and as peaceful society as possible. It's just a question of what is the best way of achieving this. I believe that a conservative approach is more likely to succeed than a liberal one.
I don't think Clinton was a bad president, and I've said this before. I don't know if Obama would be a good president or not. I'm old enough to have worked out that anything said during campaigning should be taken with several pinches of salt. That's why I prefer to go on a track record rather than rely upon trust.
I think that more political progress is likely to be made in a bipartisan manner. Under Bush there was simply too much politicking in Congress, with a result that eyes were taken off the ball. Well, only one ball was being watched by the lot of them, and all the others balls are falling to the ground.
For me, McCain has his faults, but at least offers a track record of working in a positive manner (depite the negative campaign), and that's why I would vote for him if I could. I just don't know whether Obama would work in this way or not. His achievement is in self-advancement. Sounds like a republican to me! :)
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Obama may have won last night's debate on the basis of professional demeanor, but the lack of substance in most of his answers was disappointing. I am sick and tired of hearing about the Bush Administration, and I wish Obama would provide straight and clear answers instead of vacilitaring into diatribes and finger pointing. I am not interested in Obama's opinion of McCain's record, which most of us are familiare with and consider it fairly moderate and bipartisan, what I want to hear from Obama is his strategy to solve the fiscal and economic crises we are enduring. Thus far the only thing I have heard from him is a reaffirmation of what we hear from the media on a daily basis. I couldn't help wishing Hillary had been the nominee.
McCain was repetitious, a bit incoherent, gave the appearance of being a dove when it came to pursuing OBL in Pakistan, and came across as arrogant and disdainful, but he managed to connect with the audience better than Obama who often gives the impression of a professor giving a lecture to college students.
In the meantime, Sarah continues to attract huge crowds everywhere she goes, winks and all.
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#142, 131
Gentlemen,
Do you think Cindy has had work done? She has that 'stretched' look.
Unlike Michelle, who is simply awesome. And looked every bit of it yesterday.
Dirty Sam
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#243
Andrea,
Who said God is a bloke? In the vast majority of historical religions the Mother Goddess is predominant.
I personally like to think She is female.
And Black.
Quite possibly gay.
Which would be bad news for Pat Robertson.
Ecclesiastical Sam
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Gary, my point is that they are not just private businesses selling a product. Freedom of the press should mean more than just freedom to make money.
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ref #239
What do you mean reigned in. Israel has hard restraints on it.
Otherwise Lebanon would be in far worse shape.
If Cuba started launching missles at the U.S we would probaly evacuate our soldiers and than carpet bomb the island.
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Funny - it's socialism if it's for poor folk (universal healthcare, etc) but not if it's for pumping good monies in after bad bailing out banks...
Now we have shares in banks (statement today of the venerable PM Brown and Chancellor Darling...whoopee)
Matter of perspective, huh?
Can think of a Last Poets track coming on...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27083134/
Here there's a sense you won't get a mortgage (usually a 25 y mortgage) if you're going to reach retirement age before said 25 years are up....is that the case in the US?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3132278/US-mortgage-crisis-90-year-old-woman-shoots-herself-to-avoid-eviction.html
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-103414
Still...that query - can't we all just get along (we're stuck here together for a short time - to paraphrase Mr. King) needs asking again...Or is there someone new to hate/someone new to invade...
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chill0 # 230
"There have also been problems with cultural understanding' and basic language and accent................
Bottom line is, although the Indian call centre people may be much better educated and intelligent than their equivalents in Britain, they are not much liked to deal with".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Omitting your surmise over the education andd intelligence factors, I can not agree with the rest of your negative thoughts..
My contacts were the cream de la cream in repect of their English language, perfect manners, and the knowledge they had been provided with.
It was just that they, as with other "English or American businesses in Europe are trying to provide a service with one hand tied behind their backs, on a par with the present financial mess where the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing.
"Do not leave home without it" refers to noting the local telephone number of your bank, before you go abroad.. Internet information using the UK number given is only available if you are dialing in the UK!
So cutting local costs "at home" is definitely cutting their own throats in the long run.
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Obama was more brilliant the McCain. Concerning foreign policy, he sounds for the use of diplomatic channels to resolve international crises, rather than military means. By this he wants the international community to be engaged rather than the US deal with trouble spots single-handed. He seeks to improve US image to the rest of the world by assuring that a Democrat administration will seek to be a friendly country encouraging democracy in countries like Pakistan.
McCain was playing on US military strength. In the eyes of many he is more like a war-monger who tries to project the US as a force that needs to act rather than waste time negotiating. On this he gives advantage to Obama who looked cool and has succeeded in selling a peaceful approach before things heat up into a military action.
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Sadly the debate mostly deployed too much of the talking points for the partisans ofeach side. However would like to Senator "that one". First, I keep hearing him talking about going line by line in each bill to elimnate wasteful spending.Sorry supreme court removed the line item veto under Clinton.Secondly, keeps claiming that Senotor "me" from AZ is going to lower the taxes on fatcats, he even said at a rally again in Indy today. McCain is not adjusting the rates one way or another.Although, when BHO talks about raising the taxes on the wealthy is it because his economic advisors took $300 million in compensation from Fannie and Freddy before they collapsed.Which leads me to my next point, he keeps harking on about deregulation this and deregulation this....Like to point out this credit crisis started with the very regulated FM mortgage twins.In fact they were regulated to hand out mortgages to those who could not afford it and were forced to cancel screening programs that were deemed racially prejudice. The criteria that democrats held the twins to as a measure of success was how many mortgages could they hand out and nothing to do with fiscal common sense. Suprising BHO has received the second most money from them in campaign contributions of any of the 357 legislators they have contributed to and he has only been in office for 3yrs.
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ref #251
How superficial of you.
But Cindy is a hot cougar for us(not McCain).
But her soul does not need to be repaired like Michelle's
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McCain calls Americans his fellow Prisoners...
poor gaffer, the man is still in Vietnam in his mind. You dumbos want any more proof that he is the President that American must not have...
McCain is very close to a madman.
Watch McCain call Americans Fellow Prisoners
How much more is he willing to disgrace himself and the country in the eyes of the world before he realizes he has no dignity left, I wonder.
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Here's some light relief - if you don't drive a cab in Darlington, this is. The official reponse could have been "This law is out of date, has immediately been repealed and the official officious enough to pursue this case has been told to pursue another career". But that would take openness and common sense.
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seanspa (#253), I understand your point. In this country, "freedom of the press" is the right of the publisher to print anything he or she chooses without prior restraint, and that's all it means. The only control on the press (other than libel laws) is the marketplace. I don't always get what I want in my newspaper, but I get it often enough. If I didn't, then I would buy a different newspaper.
Some people have idealistic notions of the responsibilities of the press, but they are wrong. A "responsible" press exists merely because there is a market for it. There is also a lot of trash, and everything in between. You pay your money and you take your choice.
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"246. At 8:17pm on 08 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
seanspa (#236), did you mean "deprived"? But more to the point, just what do you suppose the press is "cracked up to be"? Newspapers (and now "new media") have always had a point of view. There is nothing wrong with that. They are private businesses selling a product. If you don't like the product, you can look elsewhere; there are lots of choices."
Yes I am very bewildered by the some right-wing Americans view of the press. Apparently it should have this weird thing of "balance" (never completely defined) which seems to mean everyone should get the same amount of attention, regardless of the news values.
Presumably any Newspaper that carries a feature on an evolutionary discovery is expected to give equal space to creationist nutters.
A civil rights interview should be followed by one dealing with the KKK - both on the same plain.
This is very weird. It almost seems like they would prefer to be uninformed by their media
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TruthSlinger (#258), Obama was not talking about the "line item veto," which I am sure he is aware the President does not have. He was referring to the process of writing a budget in the first place.
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243. At 7:22pm on 08 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
202. goleooo:
"Nothing can help her poor soul...not even God. "
You know nothing about God if you invoke Him on a BBC blog because you disagree with someone.
_______________________________
To AndreainNY,
and why don't you teach a poor soul like me about God?
let's begin by a few questions I have with regard to your republican christian views
1. What color is God? Is he white? Is he black? Is he yellow? Is he brown?
2. Why does God make men hate one another on his name?
3. Does God favor one nation over another say America over Saudi Arabia or Germany over Japan yet he has created all people?
4. Why does God send his "son" to forgive and preach love and peace, demanding that all do as Christ did through acknowledging him yet us Americans, godly people as we are, are proud of taking advantage of others, self praise, guns and lies?
5. Why does God allow his humans to wave their guns and their bibles, label their own citizens terrorists, lie to the media, dishonor their wives (like McCain did), manipulate millions, go to wars with other countries and preach that American blood is worth more than other blood..
6. Why does God give Moses 10 commendments that us Americans like to consider holy, yet ignore every day?
7. Why does God bless menkind with brain and a heart, than expect them like yourself not to make use of either one?
8. Why does God like to create a bad product (republicans and a great example Palin) who with their ignorance, if God really is this old beardy men you like to think of, insult the very same God that made them?
9. Why does God send his own child that turns up to be himself on a suicide mission to save a savage race of men only to allow them kill one another, label one another terrorists, let one another die of hunger and of neglect, die because of lack of paper that is called money?
10. WHy does Christ preach love your neighbor, help the poor, help the needy, yet our most godly people (republican conservative evangelists) do not want to give healthcare to those who need it most, do not want to help the poor and struggling ones but want to reward the rich?
Some evil God that Republican God must be. I don't know what Godly words you read, but give me that book you use to replace my toilet paper.
More to come, but I think you have enough work to do as it is...
please for once I hope you write something that makes sense to me?
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"254. At 9:26pm on 08 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #239
What do you mean reigned in. Israel has hard restraints on it.
Otherwise Lebanon would be in far worse shape."
Really, so would Northern Israel, wouldn't it.
Not exactly a great success.
"If Cuba started launching missles at the U.S we would probaly evacuate our soldiers and than carpet bomb the island."
If the US claimed control of Cuba's water, forced it to look after hundreds of thousands of refugees whose homes and land it stole then Cuba's behaviour would seemmore reasonable.
But then the US does not claim to be the "home" of one ethnic group and that all the others are inferior.
Can you imagine the reaction if the US was to change its constitution to declare it was the "home" of protestant white people.
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#259
Magic,
I just looked up Cougar on the internet and frankly I am disgusted by your deviant fantasies.
As for being superficial. Guilty as charged. But it's better than being artificial. If Cindy has another facelift she'll have a moustache.
I believe that Michelle's soul is an issue for her and her God, but I would opine that it seems far from needing saving. She seems to be a decent, loving, smart, fit mom.
And Hot. Always Hot.
Back to the naughty stair.
Kermit Sam
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250. At 8:58pm on 08 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
In the meantime, Sarah continues to attract huge crowds everywhere she goes, winks and all.
Yes she does, clowns and mountebanks often do. Whether this means anything electorallyis anohter matter.
They no doubt go to see a performance - but not someone to safeguard with their jobs and mortgages.
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243. At 7:22pm on 08 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
202. goleooo:
"Nothing can help her poor soul...not even God. "
You know nothing about God if you invoke Him on a BBC blog because you disagree with someone."
You even know God's sex, you must be on very close terms. What is his shoe size?
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This may possibly explain views of the media?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100602637.html
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#258, Truthslinger, don't confuse us with the facts.
Honest politicians are now rarer than wild naugas,
which were hunted nearly to their extinction for their
hides.
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Hey AndreainNY,
What do you make of this headline eh?
"Coalition air strikes kill 76 Afghan civilians: interior ministry"
"Afghan Civilian Deaths Acknowledged By Pentagon, Officials Say 30 Killed In Strike"
Civilian loses
What does God say about it?
Or is that no true? Some poor soul around the world dying is not a matter of interest to you and your God is it?
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#271, that should be "hydes."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
135, 138, guns.
First you say I must have grown up in a mid-Atlantic state. Then you suggest Chicago. Nope, not Chicago.
I was born in the heart of Manhattan when it was still a wonderful place. Museums, botanical gardens, special educational programs - everything was yours for the asking and everything was free.
It was such a vital place, with so many opportunities handed you on a platter, that you had to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to make something of yourself.
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#244. At 7:58pm on 08 Oct 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote:
'You go in. You kill people, get killed and spend money for a while.'
That is it exactly - spend money . These armed conflicts are costing the US citizens 'loads of money' and someone somewhere is making a mint out of it . Now I wonder who that can be - could it be the advisers of W who could end up being Mcain's advisers . Perhaps without these conflicts some personal fortunes may not be as large as they are now ..
By the by the choice of Palin is quite straightforward - she has a passably slight resemblance to Fergie - Duchess of York and more importantly serves to keep Alaska in the Union .
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Ms. Marbles, then if one defines "mid-atlantic state"
as any place where one can obtain red clam chowder,
then, I submit, you grew up in one.
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239, BillTyrone.
"Whilst I am at it, no blank cheque and an anything goes policy towards Israel. This must stop. Zero nasty bias for Israelis here at all, just a view that Israel as a nation must be reigned in and subject to far greater political discipline, collective accountability and positive action than has been the case for a long, long, time."
254, MagicUbermensch.
"What do you mean reigned in. Israel has hard restraints on it. Otherwise Lebanon would be in far worse shape. If Cuba started launching missles at the U.S we would probaly evacuate our soldiers and than carpet bomb the island."
In all your posts, Ubermensch, you consistently favor war over peace. That is why you lose credibility.
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Personally I think McCain's campaign was doomed from the moment the wheels came off Hilary Clinton's primary race. The Republican's only gritted their teeth and chose McCain because they were terrified of a Clinton in the Whitehouse and thought he would be the perfect foil to hilary. Unfortunately for the Republicans the Democrats pulled a fast one and its been downhil for McCain ever since...
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Ref 268
Sarah's support among intellectuals has evaporated, but that is not the case with blue collar workers and religious persons. What I hear from people, just about everywhere I go, is that she is genuine and that she represents the values and goals of most Americans. I am convinced that if it wasn't for her McCain would be down by double digits at this point. She is very charismatic and has the inter-personal skills to connect with people, a quality the other three candidates lack. Frankly, I am amazed by her success, given her total lack of relevant qualifications for the office she is seeking, but her appeal to middle class America is real and it is bound to be a factor in November.
Another factor that should not be dismissed is ethnicity. If Obama is ahead bo 10 or more points on election day this should not be a problem, but if he is leading by only 3 or 4 points watch out. Some of the comments I have heard from people in my neck of the woods would send cold chills down Obama's spine.
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Simon21, for someone so attuned to any possible racism, it's surpriing that you couldn't care less about other types of discrimination. My point about the press was triggered by a comment in an article about how FDR probably wouldn't get elected in todays environment because of the press making a fuss of his disability. If you think my concern about such press behaviour makes me right wing, then what does that make you?
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260, galeooo.
Yup. Just another indication that McCain is edging into senility.
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277, guns.
Right on!
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Marbles, Goleooo, why is it that when Biden makes mistakes, he is just being Biden, and when McCain makes mistakes it is proof of senility? Funny that you hold McCain to higher standards than Biden!
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To #267Samtyler1969
I DO enjoy your posts.
Mustache, indeed, the visual idea of that comment is quite disturbing!
I so agree that the state of anyone's soul should be a matter to share only with one's personal concept of god or goddess. It is not the business of others, though many would like nothing more than to dictate the spiritual values of their 'fellow prisoners.'
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MCcain wants to nationalize the housing industry!! Cool!
Can't wait till I get my flat for cheap from Uncle Mac, I want a 2 bedroom flat, second floor. No basement floor PLEASE!
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#56
Marby,
I like it. Twisted and plausible. There is a precedent as well. The Reps kept Reagan going 3 years after he totally lost the plot with Bush Senior president in all but name.
Conspiracy Sam
P.S. BTW I am back
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To#280Dominickvilla
I have heard some similar comments and they chill MY spine. The Republicans would do well not to fan the carefully banked racial fires in this country. The consequences could be a disaster for them, for Obama and for all of us in this country.
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To#284Seanspa
Maybe people just find Biden more likable and less like a grumpy old man with a huge axe to grind on our collective posteriors ?
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248. David_Cunard:
#242. AndreainNY: "History has shown us the terrible results of only permitting one way of thinking."
Which would apply equally to pro-lifers and religious zealots.
***********************
Not equally. The people here seem to be worse.
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284. seanspa:
My theory is since no one listens to him, it doesn't matter.
His sole purpose is to plug Obama's experience hole.
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262. Gary_A_Hill:
seanspa (#253),
Some people have idealistic notions of the responsibilities of the press, but they are wrong.
*********************
That was certainly the case in the US until the internet hit. Then people in pajamas at home became fact checkers, and we were able to get the news we wanted to hear.
(And blog with people who say what we want to hear)
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To#286U11148453(you have too many numbers for me)
What about me? Our land is paid for and we did it the hard way by working for nearly 60 years and we are still working?
Do we get to pay for everyone who bought houses they could not afford as well as bail out the bankers?
Real COLD!
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247. gunsandreligion:
"AndreainNY, as far as your claim that Obama is a Socialist, he is certainly a populist."
I don't think Obama's a socialist. That was the name of the article I linked to, which I agreed with in principle.
I just think Obama sees the rich as his piggy bank.
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Re #267,
"mustache"?!
Sam, if you think that is clever, you are most unfortunate. (as are those that see your pomposity) Perhaps you should take up another past time.
Re #269,
"10-D", why do you ask?
Re debate:
McCain, "prowl". He is a man of action, not rhetoric.
Justin, you are too kind on the legislation and "who supported what".
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To#287Samtyler
Gee, Sam, I always thought that Nancy was running the country during those last few years and that she was actually our first female president.
If you are correct then the Bush dynasty is on the hot seat for even more irresponsible and/or self-serving decisions.
Alas, Ronnie, we hardly knew you before someone else took over.
Go McCain! Palin could have him stuffed and mounted, wheeled out on state occasions, and then she can run the country. Wink! Wink!
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#249. seanspa - Thanks for the explanation, but I don't think living in the US for four years is sufficient to get a full grasp of what a Republican presidency would be like. I can't see that McCain's track record is anything to write home about - and his VP has absolutely zero - being Mayor of Wasilla and now Governor of Alaska is not preparation for the office of vice-president, let alone the possibility of being president.
If you were still in the UK, and voting (which you may continue to do) - who has the track record, Gordon Brown or David Cameron? If voting on the basis of past achievements is important to you, then you would be obliged to vote for a Labour MP rather take a chance on Cameron and the Conservatives. However, my guess is that you would probably support the latter rather than the former. Knowing what havoc the Republicans have caused in the last eight years, taking a chance on Mr Obama seems to me to be the right way to go.
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#287. SamTyler1969 "I am back"
A welcome return - we hope the problems you were having have been resolved satisfactorily.
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296. aquarizonagal: "I always thought that Nancy was running the country during those last few years and that she was actually our first female president."
Edith Wilson beat her by a long shot, keeping the Woodrow Willson presidency alive (in all senses) from 1919 onwards. Would Cindy MCain do that if her husband were to be incapacitated?
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280, Dominick.
Unfortunately Palin's interpersonal skiils include rousing people to race-hating rage and yelling "kill him." Nice gal. We don't need trash like that in our government.
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279, AsaScot.
I think you have it backwards. McCain wanted to run against Hillary because all he had to do was bring up her questionable past to beat her.
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Ref 300
"Unfortunately Palin's interpersonal skiils include rousing people to race-hating rage and yelling "kill him"
I couldn't agree with you more; bear in mind that I was simply commenting on things I see or hear, not what I believe. I find the fact that many people find Palin's rhetoric appropriate and inspirational very disturbing.
Negative campaigning is an integral part of American politics, but what has been happening the last couple of weeks is unprecedented. I find the accusations of links to terrorism and race-baiting not only shameful, but very dangerous. Flaming passions and generating hatred inevitably leads to violence, and it would not be surprising if something very dramatic takes place as a result of the desperate tactic adopted by the McCain campaign in recent days.
Let's hope prominent Republicans rise to the occasion and counsel McCain on this issue, because it is evident the "maverick" is more inclined to raise the temperature than engage his opponent in a spirited but civil debate.
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#302 DominickVila
I've just returned to Scotland from a visit to the North Carolina (Asheville is probably not representative of the state!). As a foreigner, I never discuss politics there, except within the family! When Americans want to discuss politics with me, I express ignorance/disinterest.
I presume that your "it would not be surprising if something very dramatic takes place" refers to the question raised earlier on this thread as to what happens if a candidate is no longer alive.
I first visited the USA (Connecticut) in 1978 and found that Northern state socially segregated on racial lines. On periodic visits since, I've been impressed with the dramatic shift towards racial integration that your society has achieved.
Every society has bad elements, but I desperately hope that your fears are not realised.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To#299Davidcunard
That prospect is too scary to contemplate. It could be 'Barbie meets Chucky' or something equally horrific for our poor little impressionable children. We really must consider that when voting.
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Ref 303
"Every society has bad elements, but I desperately hope that your fears are not realised."
I am sure all Americans share your hopes. You are absolutely right about the tremendous societal changes that have taken place in the USA during the past four decades, but it is disingenous to assume that pockets of racism no longer exist.
The irony of the new tactic embraced by the McCain campaign is that it doesn't seem to be working, judging by recent poll results, so the question that begs to be asked is why are they doing it? The end may justify the means, but shouldn't we expect a little more integrity and a modicum of decorum from people aspiring to become POTUS?
I am not suggesting they are intentionally trying to incite civil unrest or unconscionable acts of violence, but their rhetoric could easily lead to that if it continues.
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Ref 299
Should that eventuality become reality our breweries will have no problem getting a significant share of this and future bailouts.
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#290. AndreainNY: "History has shown us the terrible results of only permitting one way of thinking."
Which would apply equally to pro-lifers and religious zealots.
***********************
Not equally. The people here seem to be worse."
Worse pro-lifers and religious zealots? I don't recall reading posts by either in recent weeks. Perhaps my point was not clear - pro-lifers believe that their way should be the law, with no choice in the matter, and religious zealots consider that their way is the only way and that all others will be punished in the hereafter and ought to be in the present. Both of those groups would only permit one way of thinking.
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263, Simon.
What the Republicans don't understand is they provide more material for the media than Obama does. And a lot of it is entertainment.
They offer us an ignorant moose-hunter who, being unable to answer the simplest questions, responds with ludicrous irrelevancies. She is so much fun that a mistress of spoof rakes her takes her on - again and again. We love it!
They also flash around an old man who lives in the past who hasn't the common sense to show up for his appointment on national television. Guess what? The host whose program he loused up rakes him over the coals - again and again. The host is funny. The old man is not.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Today, I understand that McCain made a speech in which he addressed us as "fellow prisoners."
Can we consider this:
Maybe he does feel that he, along with the
American people, are prisoners of what has been done to all of us by the Republican party. This poor man has basically sold his integrity and his soul to get his party to support him for president.
He IS ANGRY but perhaps that anger is not so much at Obama as it is because he (McCain) has had to sacrifice his own personal beliefs and integrity to get his party to promote his run for office. This is so sad.
Or maybe he just had a geezer moment and forgot where he was at that time. It is still very, very SAD.
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Palin's "Mean girl" routine thrills some but disgusts others.
Sadly, much of rural America thinks she's "one of us" while Hussien Obama is "one of them"
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All,
Why didn't anyone tell me Michelle was on Larry King last night? Why oh why . . . .
On a serious note I think John McCain would be a very good spokesman for Travelocity. I think I have the hat somewhere. And a fishing rod, he'd look good with a fishing rod.
Back to the naughty stair.
Bad Sam
PS #295 Neil,
Are you denying she has had work done? A lot of work?
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"278. At 11:21pm on 08 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
239, BillTyrone.
"Whilst I am at it, no blank cheque and an anything goes policy towards Israel. This must stop. Zero nasty bias for Israelis here at all, just a view that Israel as a nation must be reigned in and subject to far greater political discipline, collective accountability and positive action than has been the case for a long, long, time."
254, MagicUbermensch.
"What do you mean reigned in. Israel has hard restraints on it. Otherwise Lebanon would be in far worse shape. If Cuba started launching missles at the U.S we would probaly evacuate our soldiers and than carpet bomb the island."
In all your posts, Ubermensch, you consistently favor war over peace. That is why you lose credibility."
I have observed that many people who favour wars, Tony Blair, George Bush, have rarely had to endure one.
It is extremely easy to call for missiles when one is sitting in a comfortable chair thousands of miles away
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Chillo 225
are you right?
could this be more accurate
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233. At 6:25pm on 08 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#214 jacksforge
You're still missing the point that they're all just the same people.
There are poor people in Africa who see you in the same light as you see the 'fat cats'.
If they sat around their camp fires in a refugee camp in Darfur and talked about someone recognisable as you - jacksforge - as some bloated capitalist living off the poverty in the world, how would you answer them ?
You are probably in the top 5% wealthiest people in the world. Are you going to apologise for it ? Or just thank God (of whatever flavour) for your good fortune ?
----------------------------------------------------
I agree with them, but then I do not consume like your average american I never bought a diamond, from a wage slave, I recycle scrap steel into new products, and have helped with organisations that bring tools for self reliance to the people of africa.
I support the dropping of all the third world loans that would set so many people free, and the policy to stop putting dictators in places so we can get mo oil.
I support arms embargoes on a huge scale.
What do you support. The GOP and thats it?
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238. At 6:45pm on 08 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #220
Jacky boy to paraphrase "Crying racism is the last refuge of a scoundral"
unless your crying racism at a racist then it's just honesty.
man give it up if all the letters by you struck because of their racially offensive content were published you would look like hitler.
Every example of bad is connected to black in you eyes so shut up
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300. At 01:16am on 09 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
280, Dominick.
Unfortunately Palin's interpersonal skiils include rousing people to race-hating rage and yelling "kill him." Nice gal. We don't need trash like that in our government.
too "expletive " true marbles.
if they keep this up there will be a second uncivil war here.
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306. At 02:42am on 09 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
Ref 303
I am not suggesting they are intentionally trying to incite civil unrest or unconscionable acts of violence, but their rhetoric could easily lead to that if it continues.
-------------------------------
I would.
it does look strange and well, strange
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domnik
I find the fact that many people find Palin's rhetoric appropriate and inspirational very disturbing.
-------------------
Your not alone
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264. Gary_A_Hill wrote:
If he does maybe he should remember that it is congress that holds the purse strings and that the president does not set budgets.So he will be sorry to find out that he will not be able to pork out 300$+ million dollars a year to get his wife promoted anymore.
On a side note as to the past associations relevance. So he hung out with and got his start with a guy who tried to destroy America, went to church with a pastor who hates America and built his career on stoking racial anxieties, and the defence of that man's character is that he did good works for the poor and cared so much for them that he took a 10$ million dollar retirement package from the church(very dedicated indeed). Says alot about how BHO will able to judge and size up foreign & domestic leaders and their intentions.
Perhaps we discount all that as conjecture, fair enough. How about BHO explain then when was chairman of Ayers' Annenberg challenge the educational priorities for the 50$+ millon they had were to spend it to teach students and teachers "political activsm" and flatly rejecting funding programs to improve reading and math which is the weak, an area in need of improvement.I went to
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264. Gary_A_Hill wrote:
If he does maybe he should remember that it is congress that holds the purse strings and that the president does not set budgets.So he will be sorry to find out that he will not be able to pork out 300$+ million dollars a year to get his wife promoted anymore.
On a side note as to the past associations relevance. So he hung out with and got his start with a guy who tried to destroy America, went to church with a pastor who hates America and built his career on stoking racial anxieties, and the defence of that man's character is that he did good works for the poor and cared so much for them that he took a 10$ million dollar retirement package from the church(very dedicated indeed). Says alot about how BHO will able to judge and size up foreign & domestic leaders and their intentions.
Perhaps we discount all that as conjecture, fair enough. How about BHO explain then when was chairman of Ayers' Annenberg challenge the educational priorities for the 50$+ millon they had were to spend it to teach students and teachers "political activsm" and flatly rejecting funding programs to improve reading and math which is the weak, an area in need of improvement
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"321. At 4:28pm on 09 Oct 2008, TruthSlinger wrote:
"On a side note as to the past associations relevance. So he hung out with and got his start with a guy who tried to destroy America, went to church with a pastor who hates America and built his career on stoking racial anxieties,"
You forgot to mention he is a decorated marine veteran. Does the US Marine corps recruit men who hate America?
He was prepared to risk his life for the US, have you done that recently?
"Stoking racial anxieties" Maybe he knows a little bit more about rascism then you do.
"and the defence of that man's character is that he did good works for the poor and cared so much for them that he took a 10$ million dollar retirement package from the church(very dedicated indeed)."
So he should not be paid? Why exactly? Are other white pastors not paid on retirement? Does that show they are not dedicated?
" Says alot about how BHO will able to judge and size up foreign & domestic leaders and their intentions."
Yes he won't assume through prejudice and ignorance
"Perhaps we discount all that as conjecture, fair enough. How about BHO explain then when was chairman of Ayers' Annenberg challenge the educational priorities for the 50$+ millon they had were to spend it to teach students and teachers "political activsm" and flatly rejecting funding programs to improve reading and math which is the weak, an area in need of improvement.I "
Is that so? And what is meant by political activism. Is it possible to be politically active without being literate?
Is it wrong to teach children about their country's politics and the importance of taking part in them? Or is it only certain children who should not be taught this unless they start up America's "racial anxieties"
Isn't that what a democracy is all about?
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#238
Magic,
The phrase is 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.
Country First.
Candidate Sam
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324
i though it was
" racism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
MAjik remember back whne you were making comments about the ability of black people to work and their taking what they can from the system.(power meer kitten and even Doug(I think ) were with you on that.
all the comments about michelle back then.
If the bbc records would jump back to june or may your racism was evident. and struck so many times.
look Barack Obama will not attack Israel. OK. Do you want him to promise you that.
After all your a one track record
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324 Sam
Yes it was Oscar Wilde who said that
Wilde Sam !!!
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#228
Simon 21 at 6.13 pm 08 Oct 2008 wrote:
"Just a small tip unless you have a robust economy you do not have security for what else will pay for it"
9/11 attack clearly repudiates that statement, since at that time, though U.S had a robust economy-the present economic woes could even be attributed in part to 9/11-and perhaps the biggest arsenal of military hardware in the world, it
experienced the biggest breach of National
security of the last half century.
It simply proves, especially in the present context of unconventional warfare by extremist groups, greater security is not synonimous with greater economic prowess.
In fact there have been so many examples like Vietnam in the last century and even earlier that such is not necessarily the case.
There are other parameters like the experience and sagacity of the Commander-in-Chief. While as a non-American citizen, I do not have to take sides and while I have
great regards for the two contenders, Senator McCain and Senator Obama, we simply have to face the fact, that Senator
McCain would be better able to contend with those who pose a danger to national security, owing to his invaluable war time experience.
In passing, I would like to reiterate that
the economy, which is in a parlous state in
the U.S and globabally at the moment is a priority, yet it should be SECURITY FIRST.
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It is simple-solomon.
Senator McCain has not ever won a war. He just crashed a plane and got taken prisoner.
Right now his campaign shows poor strategy and tactics. His last move is to go mega-negative. That is what he is doing. He is trying to win the election by destroying the moral fabric of the country. If he wins it will be because he has managed to convince americans that Obama is a terrorist. That is a travesty of a mockery of two shames of a travety.
good generals consider collateral damage as off-limits and find other ways. Unfortunately for us McCain has only one gear in his tank, and doesn't seem to drive too well.
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In passing, I would like to reiterate that
the economy, which is in a parlous state in
the U.S and globabally at the moment is a priority, yet it should be SECURITY FIRST.
are you a flying elephant?
When all your national guard are abroad how are you going to put out the fires at home that are set by the hate mongering GOP
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plop
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238, ubermensch.
Unless the shoe fits, of course.
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327
First to reverse your analogy, why didn't Geoge W. Bush's commissioned fighter pilot experience in the Alabama Air Guard leave him ready to prevent 9/11, chase down OBL, contain resurgent communist militarism, and so on?
I just read two long tomes (almost the same reading effort as Churchill's wartime memoirs) about the Mediterranean campaigns that forged the anglo-american (and free french and commonwealth) miltary force leading up to landings in France.
Plenty of decorated WWI veterans did not adapt to WWII. Some did adapt spectacularly. Some newcomers to service did well and some did not. Eisenhower began his at times awkward 'graduate level' training that led on to success as supreme commander in Europe.
My point is that staunch mid-rank service does not seem to be a predictor of success in either future command promotions or Presidential duties.
The President's ability to define missions and let the military figure out how to carry them out, and the ability to communicate effectively with the military and civilians in DOD and cabinet are more important to national security. Those are skills that Obama has already demonstrated, he's made clear that he will leave generalship to his generals, and listen to engage them in planning rather than dictate to them. He is intelligent and inclusive enough to avoid pitfalls of hubris ("we will be welcomed as liberators, this will take 6 months, we don't need as many troops as the generals want" all from the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld Iraq buildup backed by McCain) and to be like a much different President, George H. W. Bush, in building stronger and broader coalitions with more patience and skill.
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Simon21 #323
Well the marines no but the Army.
Previous years of honorable service to not excuse nor absolve the 35 years as a racial deomogogue.Seems his advanced knowledge of racism has led him to largely become what it is he preaches against or just to better focus his rhetoric to enhance donations and enrollment at his church.
The race of the pastor is irrelevant, he promotes himself as a man of God and a servant to the people. not exactly the set forth for riches.Driving a 80,000$ porsche and living in a multi million dollar home is a little disingenuous. Money could be better spent alleviating the suffering of the meek.White pastors who do likewise are every bit of a sham as the Rev. Wright.
As far as judging foreign leaders it shows a tremendous amount of Naivete if we follow Sen. Obama's response to both characters in question
As far as "political Activism" educational programs promoted by the Annenberg challenge they are not the civics lesson you seem to envision and not very educational. Perhaps you should get educated as to what the focus was.
Maybe I am a little too cognizant of these people because I am from Chicago, not sure where you are writing from
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My second comment, Sen. John McCain said during the debate he wouldn't raise taxes and eliminate the national debt in four(4) years! Everyone knows that would be an exercise in futility, impossible. But yet the Republicans will pull every dirty trick out of the book to win this elections as Bush did to Al Gore. It was the Republicans that initiated the debacle in Florida with the votes and influence the Republican Supreme Court appoint George Bush as President.
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On one of Gov. Palin's stops in Pennsylvania, her supporters raised stuffed monkeys with Obama bands tied around them. It was reported she waved her acknowledgment and may have autographed a few. These are the individuals that spread racial discord with the influence and backing of the Republican party.
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In response and you know to whom I'm speaking. What if your forefathers and mothers were brought to a foreign land in chains as slaves, treated in the most inhumane manner worst than an animal. What if your mother and baby sister were thrown to the ground and raped in full view of everyone within eyesight, the little girl screaming in horror, fright and pain. Your father shot, dragged, mutilated, lynched and bonfire lit beneath him for looking in the direction of the "master's wife". What if your daughter or sister was in Sunday school with her friends to learn, worship and the the church was bombed killing these innocent children before their lives had yet to begin. What if you were denied an education, decent housing, gainful employment, use of a restroom, a drink from a water fountain, forced seating on public transportation, and continued racial hatred, prejudice from 1619 to 2008.
Would you become a bit angry when told to "get over it"! John Howard Griffin wrote "Black Like Me" his townspeople hung him in effigy! Americans, whether from the deep south or Chicago cannot face the horrors they have subjected other human beings because of the colour of their skin. Young Americans of every race have moved beyond the negative parental influences of racism with profound resistance. God Bless them, from an aged African-American in my wildest dreams, never thought I would live to see a Sen. Barack Obama representing all the people of America, bringing the Rev. Martin L. Kings words close to fulfillment.
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Justin:
I watch the second presidential debate and it was very informative, but, McCain was never able to make a point, that was able to stand up to a media critic...
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