Split decision
It is becoming obvious that there is a divide on the debate outcome that rivals the Kennedy-Nixon verdict (those who heard the 1960 presidential debate on the radio thought Nixon had won, those who watched the sweaty demeanour of the VP on TV knew he had lost).
This time, the division is between those who watched the debate on a single screen and those who watched the network coverage which, in some cases at least, split the screen and had a single tight shot of the person NOT speaking throughout the encounter.
Mr McCain looked alright to me in the full version - I saw him attack but never saw him reacting to Mr Obama's contributions.
But the reaction shots make him look pretty awful - angry at best, at worst something odder than angry.
Hence this.
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
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I watched on BBC World (so saw one screen) but the eye-popping and funny expressions in the 'Angry McCain' Youtube video in that link just make McCain look desperate. He is trying to portray Obama as crazy and ridiculous, and yet again it backfires. He can't really do anything right can he?
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What I find oddest about McCain is his tendency to keep putting on a fake smile. His handlers have obviously told him to smile more, even though it doesn't come naturally. The result is something very odd looking. He also tends to smile at the wrong moments.
The second thing that comes across when he's speaking is a constant impatience and frustration with his opponent, and the smile just appears as an unsuccessful attempt to disguise that.
His final annoying habit when speaking is to keep saying "I know how to fix...", "I know what to do...", almost like a schoolkid saying "I know the answer and he doesn't". It implies there are magical solutions that he mysteriously knows about, but can't tell us (perhaps in case Obama leans across and copies his answers).
All in all you'd have to conclude that his demeanour is not quite presidential. I have a fair bit of respect for McCain, and the way he comes across is probably unfair to him, but I do now have to wonder whether, temperamentally, he is suited to the top job.
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That's good - your link to Huffpo displays the story of Joe the Plumber and his tax payment omissions.
I think we've all had plumbers in the house like Joe - they develop a sort of divine right to sound off about the Government/taxes/foreigners/immigrant/Chelsea football team etc to their heart's content and you daren't shut them up because you're desperate for the washing machine to be fixed.
Next time Obama goes walkabout, the Security Service will be doing an anti-plumber sweep.
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And now that we've moved on to a new post, I just want to say again that I'm very keen on that idea of George Clooney as the next Ambassador to London .....
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A 38 percentage point to the winner in any contest, is technically speaking a T.K.O. For that scenario to have happened, 2 things must occur.
1. The Losing contestant ( if we are to believe CNN – Mcain ) must have done very poorly in the debate. He must have been so awful that he would have been best served if he did not turn up for the debate.
2. The winning contestant ( if we are again to believe CNN – Obama ) must have been so darn good that, we should literally be cursing the moderator/referee for not stopping the contest.
I am willing to bet my lunch/dinner to see if anyone on this board will be courageous enough to raise their hand in support of seeing such a scenario play out during the debate. I didn’t think so!
Don’t let the MSM deceive us into believing that a Mcain presidency is such an aberration. Don’t let them deceive us into believing that a distinguished ex fighter pilot with over 35 years in the senate, cannot hold his own in a debate against a rookie.
People keep talking about is age, saying mean things about his age. My question is, is it a crime to be 72yrs old and still be interested in serving your country. I secretly pray am as active and alert as Mcain is when I get to that ripe old age of 72. The man has grown older gracefully, and I admire his strength and tenacity.
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See also Toby Harnden from the Torygraph who scored it [just] for McCain..
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A link to a selectively-edited anti-McCain You Tube video on Huffington Post as proof of some theory about McCain being angry and odd? Stay classy, Justin.
How long before you start kicking Joe the Plumber?
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Obama looked like a president. McCain didn't. He looked like he was trying too hard to get a one up on Obama, it made it worse.
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I bet this would've been Justin's preferred You Tube video of the day if the protagonist had been the other VP candidate.
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"the reaction shots make him look pretty awful"
Licking his lips reminded me of a snake seeking its prey! Out of curiosity, what channels carried only a single screen shot? I watched it on CNN and a stream from The New York Times but saw very little, if any, difference.
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I thought McCain did well in articulating his policy proposals and in putting Obama on the defensive. But McCains mannerisms and his at times exasperated tone made for a bad contrast with Obama who was cool, calm and collected throughout. Obama has impressed me with his steady demenour he never seems flustered and while somepeople view this as him being aloof I see as someone who thinks things through and will avoid making rash decisions. I've always admired John McCain and thought that he would make a better president but his behaviour over the last few weeks has made me think that Obama might be the better choice.
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Oh dear me!
Re. the now famous Joe the Plumber of Ohio.
I have it on good authority that there is only one Joe Wurzelbacher in Toledo, and the records show that he hasn’t voted in any primary or election in the past ten years. He has not registered for this election.
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#6.lordBeddGelert: "See also Toby Harnden from the Torygraph who scored it [just] for McCain.."
To quote Mandy Rice-Davies: "Well, he would, wouldn't he?"
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Look, this is immature. I teach first grade and this is the type of thing my kids would focus on.
Can we focus on issues, please? Anyone can look silly if you freeze-frame them while they're talking. That's not a disqualifier for the presidency.
(Just for the record, I'm voting Nader, not McCain, so I consider myself somewhat objective here, disliking both McCain and Obama.)
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5 & 7 ~ Icey and Dubba
The video Justin Webb has posted is everywhere. It is all over the net - and was put up almost immediately after the debate ended (just as Drudge had declared McCain the winner when the debate was only half way through). You can't blame the messanger.
Whilst I respect your loyalty, it is a fact that McCain has a problem. Obama's lead in the polls is increasing and it is arguable that this is because McCain (like Hillary Clinton) under-estimated him both for his personal skills and his political skills.
Nor is McCain helped by all the conservative cheerleaders who are currently peeling away and fretting about him in public.
And by the way, I've already taken a kick at Joe the plumber at 3 above. Most of us can think of our own personal Joe the Plumber.
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#7 duhbuh
I think the point Justin is making is that the people who watched the spilt screen version of the debate saw McCain's short tempered facial expressions when Obama was speaking. People who watched the single screen version missed these and 'scored' McCain higher than Obama. Those who watched the spilt screen version 'scored' Obama higher.
What's the Huffington Post got to do with it?
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icetayoa #5
Where did you get your 'facts' that Sen McCain is a 'distinguished fighter pilot'? And yes you can be 50 years in the senate and still lose a debate to a roookie...
Its a logical fallacy to always equate longetivity in service to competence. Being 72yrs is not the issue about McCain, its his ATTITUDE that's questionable.
I had huge respect for Sen McCain but his recent style and demeanour is shocking. Obama has been the more restrained and comes across as a skillful thinker.
I respect your support for McCain but do try to acknowledge his shortcomings.
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7. At 6:38pm on 16 Oct 2008, duhbuh wrote:
"How long before you start kicking Joe the Plumber?"
What, you mean:
The 'Joe the Plumber' who is is thinking about not buying that plumbing business because Big O's tax plan means he'd have to pay $2.47 a day extra in taxes?
And this one just beats them all...
That 'Joe the Plumber' who ain't even registered to vote?
Yep, time to start that foot a-swinging. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
Only in America people, only in America.
Goodnight.
Regards
The Fearless Brit.
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Hmm... is it just me or was that video clip so amateurishly done that it fails to impress even a member of the choir?
On the other hand, somebody should really compare Obama and McCain on the number of times that they blink in a debate. This is the second time I've noticed McCain's eyelids aflutter, and I'm betting that the ratio is about 10:1.
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#5 Icetayoa:
"My question is, is it a crime to be 72yrs old and still be interested in serving your country. I secretly pray am as active and alert as Mcain is when I get to that ripe old age of 72."
It's not wrong to to be interested but that doesn't mean its a good idea. And hey yes it would be good to be in the mental shape McCain is at 72 but that shape is regrettably not good enough for the highest office in the land. The sad thing is had events worked out otherwise in 2000 I think he would have made a good president but there is a season for everything and McCain's has passed.
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I loved McCain at the end giving his animated thumbs up and waves. It's so funny he can't lift his arms up above the level of his shoulders. It makes him look very funny indeed. A military man who can't salute, not a very good military man then.
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Message 8: "Obama looked like a president."...what does a president look like? How long is a piece of string?
Do you mean he looked composed, or he looked like he was interested, or he looked like he was concerned, or he was in a dreamworld or he had a glazed expression or he tried his best to seem attentive...or what?
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I felt sorry for McCain- while Obama had the perfect demeanor, McCain looked like a grumpy,desperate, old man. It is possible to be old but to appear calm, level headed and distinguished. Bob schiffer the moderator is old but looked calm and distinguished.
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I thought McCain did better this time. But i think he still did a lousy job. He seems to grasp a straws, defends the behaviour of some real nasty people that go to his rallies and then tries to minimize it while maximinizing the smallest and slight by Obama's supporters. He looks stiff is incoherent and just says anything to score points.
I am tired of his " I know how to do this and that..." He says he knows how to win wars. Well how many wars has he won? He knows how to do everything except economics... I also am tired of his calling everybody "my friends" i am not his friend and actually now despise him for making a deal with the devil. His selection of Palin is nothing but absolutely insane. She smacks of a neo fascist but even more ignorant. Is her husband going to be running the vice-presidency if McCain is elected? God save us all.
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from this debate i really concluded,that john mccain is beyond his prime, seriously out of touch and shouldnt have been nominated. this is the worst campaign ever, imagine what amess he would make of his presidency. He lacks any composure and looks as if he would explode at any minute, not exactly the type of leader you want.
He would have a better chance if he had a better suited running mate but she is a circus on her own.
and obama is a little too good to be true, I dont buy the balancing act.
id say seeing that there is a choice between the two the choice would be obama but once elected i think justin and everyone in this blog should start running bets about what promise he will break first. because i believe he is trying to be too many things at once!
people said he came off as cool in this debate but to me he came off as weak and boring (but i heard that was deliberate).
but thats just my observation.
at the end of the day I think most votes will be anti-republican not pro obama, the repubs need some cleansing at the moment and a strong defeat in this election will force them to clean house and revisit some of their philosophy (or so i hope).
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#7.duhbuh: "How long before you start kicking Joe the Plumber?"
No sooner asked than done: Joe unmasked!
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If anyone was unconvinced as to the MSM’s shameful bias in favour of the Obama camp and the duplicity of their poll figures, they need to look no further than the outcome of the last US Presidential debates.
I watched it on CNN and what they had to say immediately after the debate, before they came out with their magical and bogus figures is very instructive. Please bear in mind, that their expert view was unanimous
1stly, their ‘experts’ were of the opinion that Senator Mcain was way above/ahead of Senator Obama in the first 30 – 45 minutes of a 90 minutes debate. Approximately he was by far the better candidate during half of the period of the debate.
2ndly, they were of the opinion that this was Senator Mcain’s best performance ever. They were also of the opinion that whilst he was constantly on the offence, senator Obama was on the defence for the most part of the debate.
3rdly, they were of the opinion that Senator Obama was flat throughout the debate and that this was is worst performance ever.
Based on their above summary, any sane mind should draw only one definite conclusion – A MCAIN VICTORY IN THE DEBATE?? WRONG ACCORDING TO CNN’s SHAMEFUL POLLS!!
Trust CNN and their magic poll numbers. The debate was given to Senator Obama 69% to Senator Mcain 31%.
One does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure that these so called POLLS OF POLLS are padded and rigged by the very jaundiced media to favour Obama. Thank God, that their members are not the only people going to vote, and thankfully their members and ‘experts’ are a very very very tiny minority.
Their actions are very despicable. The networks call up a few democrats and their sympathisers for their opinions on the debates. They then pass on their rehearsed answers as truths. They then compile them into one gigantic ruse called a poll, and make sure to insist that it represents the opinion of the entire country?? pleassss!!!
The polls that really count are the ones on election day..Obama can lead by 40 points in the MSM rigged polls for all we concerned independents care, it doesn't count for squat during actual voting
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Someone in this thread mentioned McCain's distinguished career? He was shot down like many other American pilots, he was not the only one to be tortured. Thousands of other Americans, army and marines died and got shot and maimed. He is no war hero, there are countless others who really would qualify for heroism, including Mr Kerry, dare i say. I think it stinks that Mr McCain and his cronies keep building up his resume as if only McCain had served his country. One American General who was Nato commander himself was shot four times in Vietnam, not shot down but shot in the body, and when he made a slight comment on McCain's record, all the conservatives jumped on him as insulting. The insult is to pump this man up when in effect all he did was to bomb people from high above, while others did the grunt work and paid dearly..
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Sometimes appearances matter. Presidents have to engage in diplomacy. They have to cajole and persuade.
Facial expressions also give good clues as to what's going on under the surface. You can't say they're irrelevant.
So this isn't a silly debate at all.
Also, journalistically, Justin was really talking about the reaction to what people saw in the debates, particularly the difference the split screen made. It's a perfectly valid subject for the blog.
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Joe Wurzelbacher a small time contractor. My experience with contractors is that they prefer to get paid in cash so as to avoid paying taxes... So much for civilization.
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I have no problem with Justin's blog. What i have a problem with is the truck load of undeserving accolades poured at Obama at every whim.
Its now so ridiculous that whatever Obama does he now looks presidential to his fawning audience. he looks presidential If he smiles, tilts his head this way or that, crosses his leg , keeps mum and knowingly does not answer a question, looks straight into the camera, mumbles the term middle class e.t.c
give me a break. The whole Obama thing is wearing thin and it now reminds me of a cheap Mexican soap opera.
Readers, we are electing a president, and not evicting members from BIG BROTHER.
It is about substance.
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#19. fearlessbritabroad; #31. ofilha - Re Joe the Plumber, check my link at #7.
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" "Obama looked like a president."...what does a president look like?
What would I like a president to look like, or, perhaps, how would I like a president to appear?
As someone who is calm, friendly, rational. As someone who would make a good impression on foreign leaders and people in general. As someone I'd like to have as a boss.
In all three senses, Obama seemed much closer to what I want.
McCain seemed like he would make foreign leaders and others dislike him, and would lose his temper too much to be a good boss.
So while I thought McCain did at least as well and maybe a little better on the debating points, it doesn't surprise me that the only poll I saw saw Obama as the overwhelming winner. Most people, like me, saw him as more "presidential."
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I saw the debate in split screen . McCain could hardly contain himself . His contempt and disdain for Obama was palatable .
reminded me of those old coots in the bars who look to pick fights with the young whippersnappers with lines "like back in the day..."
John needs some meds he is going to blow a gasket . maybe he will call his new found buddy Joe the plumber
PS I'm 60 so maybe Im a whippersnapper to John too !
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icetayoa you must understand the media, they kick you when you are down and pounce on any sign of weakness.
If the media is pouncing on mcCain its because he invited it on himself by his perceived weakness.
Lets not forget McCain was the darling of the media for a time when he was on top but now his constant fumbles have made him the perfect topic for headlines.
If you havnt noticed the story of the media for the past 2 weeks have been the McCain faltering campaign. why? because it sells!
His picking of palin, who has so much controversy was so perfect for selling stories, if he had asked the media to picka candidat for him she is probably who they would have picked.
McCain only made his situation worst by trying to hide his candidate from the media sharks when they smelled blood. Bad idea it only makes them hover around you more.
even saturday night live is getting beter ratings because of his VP pick. I watched SNL for the first time in years , because of Palin.
Now that we have got used to Palin, he brings up the controversial 'palling around with terrorist line' to fuel more controversy, more stories to sell again.
Then now after this debate he goes off with his obsession for Joe the Plumber , who now turns out to not be a plumber after all lol.
For the media you cant get much better than that from a candidate. one blunder after the other.
(lets not forget the suspending the campaign stunt).
When this election is done i think cnn, nbc fox bbc etc should cut McCain a check for helping them sell more stories.
on the other hand Obama cannot be any more boring, the lecturing professor, he really lost his appeal after the primaries was over so no need to bother talking about him.
the unravelling of the McCain campaign is the new story.
and its got everybody's attention Everyone is asking what he wil do next. SO if you see a lot ofcriticism about Mc. in the media, you cant really blame them, he is grabbing everyone's attention.
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I watched the debate last night at a nursing home with some of my students on the split screen. The first thing anyone noticed was McCain's blinking. A comment was made that he must be lying, "ask any cop, a person who blinks alot is not speaking the truth." His facial contortions only seemed to get worse. Later in the debate he felt the need to try to attack Obama for his composure by pointing it out which only served to make his fear and agitation more noticeable. McCain came across as a man on the verge.
I used to admire McCain and probably would have voted for him over Gore in 2000. He stood up to the religious right that runs his party and ultimately the country. But he has become servile to them to advance his own aspirations and this is what it has turned him into.
Obama has managed the impossible. He is a Democrat who is appealling to sensibility instead of undermining his own beliefs in order to pander to the fundamentalist faction.
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Clearly his girdle was too tight
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Johnny we hardly knew ya but what we do know we think of a angry man .
A privileged man with a privileged life not getting his way ...
Maybe for once the guy with the 13 houses and 11 cars will have to take his marbles and go home ( homes)
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Dear Moderator, Your rules are clearly documented and I am sure we all do our best to abide by them. However recent activity of yours seems to suggest that if a point of view is expressed anyone who does not agree may complain and the post is removed. Is this a right wing strategy to bolster your flagging candidate?
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28 icetayoa wrote:
Largely the same post s/he had already posted before, with the same shouting,whinging about the 'MSM' etc etc
His particular whinge seems to be that a poll on CNN on the debate had a different result to the pundits in the studio.
As I recall, someone has already tried to explain to him that there is no inherent link between the two.
Without success, it would appear.
But the best bit was "The polls that really count are the ones on election day..Obama can lead by 40 points in the MSM rigged polls for all we concerned independents care, it doesn't count for squat during actual voting"
[a] 'The only poll that matters is the one on election day.' Obviously. And what people always say when their side is behind in the polls.
[b] "we concerned independents". Yeah - right. Icetayoa may not be a registered Republican, but if icetayoa is an independent, I'm Joe The Plumber's accountant.....
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#36 lawchicago
If his contempt and disdain was palatable what are you complaining about? Or do you mean palpable?
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#33
Yes it is about substance. That is precisely why "everyone" fawns over Obama and discounts his opponent.
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McCain's media skills are not as good as Obama's. McCain is too elderly for office. McCain's policies are not as clearly articulated as Obama's. McCain is running a reform ticket against his own party. His running mate is ...how do I put this delicately...a rural pitbull in lipstick? How the heck is he supposed to win the debate or the election? Anyway deep thought has never been one of McCain's specialities he is better for the US people in the senate.
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At various times during the coming week each of the main news channels (except Fox) will display Joe the Plumber's head on the end of a spike as a warning to anyone else who would dare question the Divine Right of the Chosen One to take his rightful place in the White House.
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I think it is funny that opponents of Obama call him "the one" and "chosen one" and "messiah" and then mock those names they have selected for him ... it is like monkeys dancing in front of a mirror - whaddupwidat?.
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Dear #4 ("I just want to say again that I'm very keen on that idea of George Clooney as the next Ambassador to London .....")
If you send me (I mean, us) Christopher Eccleston, I will gladly send you George Clooney.
Now that the important stuff is dealt with:
The American public can turn on a dime. It hardly matters who won the debates, what matters is whether the fear mongering ultra-Right can come up with something that scares the knickers off of us at the last minute.
Eeek! A Commie! A Black man! Tax and Spend! (Less effective after billions-blowing Bush.) A terrorist! A Liberal! The Liberal Media! (All owned by Conservative-held corporations.) They'll try anything.
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Why are we hearing so much about Joe the Plumber. Trawling through the various blogs, it seems that joe the plumber might actually have links to keating, who is currently the biggest donor to the Mccain Campaign and the GOP.
Personally I believe that the guy who gets the vote is the one best suited to be CIC. Mr Obama across all three debates has appeared the most presidential, dont know about any one else but Mr Obama wins hands down.
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Body language and facial demeanor make up over 70% of (real)communication, that's why today's discourse can be so confusing. The come here, go away signals we experience.
The boss who says he cares, and has time for you, as you scuttle off down the corridor. BO has exhibited coherence of being, over the duration of his journey towards the "hoped for" Whitehouse. JM has shown a dissonant character, one not at ease with himself.
Policies follow personality, and we've seen that proven often during these past few weeks.
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I watched the debate on NBC and afterwards felt Obama had won hands down. But when I watched it again on Fox News, I was left feeling McCain had won.
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In three encounters (I do not call them debates) McCain has demonstrated his inability to control his anger. blinking eyes, talking through clenched teeth, tense set of his body all convey intolerance and indignation. This is his MO. His opponent and the American people deserve to be treated better. The idea that a candidate with these characteristics would represent the American people on the world stage is unacceptable. It is embarrassing, and I for one have suffered enough embarrassment through the antics of the current administration. The idea of a third term is deplorable.
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Only saw the side by side and his blinking and eye rolling showed his very obvious anger and contempt, whereas Obama was cool and calm, smiling even at the attacks. And the still shots I have seen of him since show him sticking his tongue out like a grumpy old man.
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newbriton my bad ... palpable
sloppy I know sorry bout that
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Autism or Down syndrome? Don't ask McCain. As evidenced by his holding forth last night he apparently does not understand the difference. If this is an indication of his grasp of other issues his election to the highest office in the land can only result in further ignominy for all of us.
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Post #22; aphexrephlex wrote:
"I loved McCain at the end giving his animated thumbs up and waves. It's so funny he can't lift his arms up above the level of his shoulders. It makes him look very funny indeed. A military man who can't salute, not a very good military man then."
He can't raise his arms above the level of his shoulders because his arms were permanently damaged by the torture he received while he was a POW in Vietnam.
There's nothing funny about this.
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One of the really key elements of this campaign this shows in action is the ability of Obama's campaign and supporters to harness the internet to get their message around the world very, very quickly. The other night there, the news that McCain had hired a former Saddam lobbyist was being feverishly passed around through twitter.com.
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The famous description of FDR, surely one of our best presidents, was:
"A second class intellect, but a first rate temperment."
Or, from Kipling: "[The man who] can keep his head while all about him are losing theirs..."
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It doesn't matter who "won" the debate. Intrade odds vary in direct proportion to the rise and fall of the stock market, although McCain in general is trending lower.
So it is all about the economy.
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As a product of that left-leaning, commie, liberal, continent of Europe - you know where one of its members has recently been hailed as the financial saviour of the financial mess authored by the free-market strategies of the New World - I am constantly amazed that any member of the non Warren Buffett class would spare a nano-second to consider elevating another Republican to the highest office in the land. The attitudes, stated policies and results demonstrated by this band smacks of nothing less than a desire to reap the rewards promised to the few by a feudal form of control.
We have had eight years of an administration that cares nothing for law, less for the Constitution and even now some are giving serious thought to supporting a third term!
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To Britishish regarding your #127 from a previous thread.
I have also noticed this same behavior from Obama. May I suggest some possible answers.
I believe first of all that he is a thinker and wants to consider how he can best answer a question in order to communicate effectively.
Second, I think he could be a highly visual learner who has to actually see the words in his mind before he speaks them. Consider it mentally thumbing through a dictionary for the most appropriate word. I worked with young children for over 30 years and I have observed this often in very visually oriented people. Eye movement can be a very telling bit of body language in this respect.
Also, I wonder how many languages he was exposed to as a young boy. I am not a native English speaker. Until I was six years old, I lived exclusively with adults who combined three different languages and often coined words and/or phrases from all three plus two other languages to express their thoughts. It was interesting but I had a difficult time at school. I, also, am not adept at the quick word.
I could be very wrong about my assessments but I thought you might like another thought about this.
I hope you see this. I was too tired last night to reply at the time.
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I watched it on PBS so it only showed one at a time. I think we all heard McCain grunt disgustingly, and that toung! I pride myself in not being shallow but I don't think I could take four years of that!
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I've just watched Justin Webb's report on the 10 o'clock news. Surprise surprise, he was quick to repeat various blog rumours about Joe the Plumber. This from the man who tried to avoid reporting anything about the John Edwards scandal, who tried to avoid reporting anything about Jeremiah Wright, and who continues to avoid reporting anything about ACORN fraud even though the FBI has launched a nationwide investigation into their activities. Give Webb a story embarrassing to the Democrats and he'll look the other way; give him a rumour about Republicans sourced from a Democrat blog and he'll run with it.
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I just liked the part where Obama said to McCain "uh, your supporters call me a terrorist and want to kill me". And all McCain had to say back was "well, you didn't like my health care plan!"
Sigh. Why are we a "superpower" country? Our kids are turning out worst in the world in math & science and we're the ones driving global economy? That just makes me want to hide under a rock.
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Obama was head and shoulders above McCain. McCain started well and was in command for the first thirty minutes. But Obama wrestled the initiative from McCain by calmly sticking to the facts and by not getting ruffled despite McCain's numerous efforts to rattle him. Obama stuck to his brief giving accurate answers and not straying from the basic theme of the questions. He showed that mastery of facts and a calm disposition was the best way to unnerve McCain. It certainly looks as if McCain is staring at defeat. Obama looks a clear winner.
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#51
How is that possible? Or is this your way of criticizing Fox?
Unless Fox dubbed the audio feed Obama did not say anything different; his delivery was the same; his mannerisms also, same is true for McCain. My point is, the choice is clear. Each candidate has different priorities and offers different solutions; each candidate has clear cut different personae. You have a right to your opinion and will make a choice, but how can you be swayed from one candidate to another in such a short period of time? Is the American electorate really influenced so easily by the talking heads of sensationalist television?
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You don't have to be eloquent or clear-sighted or measured to be President - the last eight years prove that - but it helps. Particularly when you are chosing between two candidates.
Substance - having positions on issues important to the voters which you can describe clearly and defend when challenged - should be the defining factor in an ideal world. In the debate Obama would not be swayed from his economic policy, his healthcare plans, his taxation plans - he thinks these things matter to voters. McCain I am sure has clear positions but in the debate he could not match Obama's clarity in explaining and defending them, whatever he was talking about halfway through he would abandon his line and instead say something random but complimentary about one of his target constituencies.
In addition, McCain (or to be strictly accurate, his campaign) has already built up a reputation of negative campaigning. The number of attacks he made in the debate which were either not true, only tangentially true, or completely irrelevant to the issues outnumbered those which hit home, such as campaign finance, partisanship, and his well-timed "I'm not Bush" line. Joe the Plumber may have been a rhetorical success, but Joe is a relatively wealthy plumber and exactly the sort of person Obama believes should be prepared (patriotically?) to pay a little more tax to help struggling Americans. And as for Joe's healthcare benefits, McCain really should have been better briefed before going there.
He reinforced the image of himself as a negative campaigner (despite accurately pointing out that Obama has spent more money on negative ads than any presidential candidate in history!).
I didn't see anything in McCain that an undecided voter could latch onto - no style, no clarity on substance, and a series of mostly unsuccessful attacks. I can see the attraction for his core support, I can see the attraction for anyone (plumbers or not) making over £250,000, and maybe a few making less who fall for his misrepresentations about their tax and healthcare consequences, and I can see perhaps some possible attraction for various groups he likes to randomly flatter - the veterans, serving forces, single mothers with autistic kids (or maybe not). But that's not going to be enough people to make up the numbers he needs to turn this thing around. Obama has the low-earning middle classes tied up, and that is where the numbers are, they are the people who are going to decide this election.
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There's been some critcism of the debates, in that they didn't "reveal" anything about the candidates policy. But, lets be realistic - it's all about style, and how they do it. People broadly know what Obama is about, they know what McCain is about, and the "winner" of the debates is the one who presents it in the most paletable way. That's why Obama won the debate, and the other two in my view.
Even a FOXnews focus group came out strongly for Obama after the 3rd debate.
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#23
"Obama looked like a president."...what does a president look like? How long is a piece of string?
Think of Reagan or Clinton, maybe that will help.
The length of a piece of string is always twice as long as half of it.
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#41. newbriton: "Is this a right wing strategy to bolster your flagging candidate?"
#63.duhbuh: "Give Webb a story embarrassing to the Democrats and he'll look the other way; give him a rumour about Republicans sourced from a Democrat blog and he'll run with it."
You can't both be correct!
#22. aphexrephlex: 'I loved McCain at the end giving his animated thumbs up and waves. It's so funny he can't lift his arms up above the level of his shoulders . . . A military man who can't salute, not a very good military man then."
Although I disagree with Mr McCain's proposed policies, you should consider that he did sustain numerous injuries while in service and which has resulted in some physical disability. Your comments are inappropriate.
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ref #48
First we would want David Tennant or Tom Baker.
Second what about the fear mongering of the left, McCain is going to turn women and minorities into second class citzens or start WW3
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I will add my sorry peso to this mix.
I watched on my local PBS station, no split screens or anything fancy. In my opinion McCain was the same; erratic, holding a very shaky lid on his anger. My sister wondered if he was high on Red Bull or had drunk very deeply from a vat at Starbucks.
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#4
80%,
This sounds like a dangerous obsession.
I did see Michelle on CBS.
Smokin.
Happy Sam
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McCain would not make a good president at any time. Whatever his experience in the Senate may be, he lacks the temperament and the persona to lead. Stack him up against Sarkozy, Brown, Merkl, even Putin, and his defects are self-evident. He is an essentially flawed personality that is likely to throw a tantrum (or worse) if he doesn't get his own way or encounters resistance to his ideas. The ramifications of not having a cool head at the wheel in the world we live in today are unthinkable. McCain, for this, and many other reasons is simply the wrong choice.
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#70
You're absolutely correct of course. #63 is clearly wrong!
Agree with your last para. We can poke fun at McCain for many other reasons, but the injuries he sustained are no laughing matter.
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To#64Regularjosefina
How much room is there under your rock? If there is limited space where you live, maybe I can provide more. I have lots of rocks!
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#20 battling_apathy
"On the other hand, somebody should really compare Obama and McCain on the number of times that they blink in a debate. This is the second time I've noticed McCain's eyelids aflutter, and I'm betting that the ratio is about 10:1."
It's interesting that you would mention the excessive blinking.. I, personally, think McCain tends to do all that blinking when he's not telling the truth (or complete truth anyway)..
Watch his eyes when he makes a general (true) statement.. i.e. about the terrible state of the economy. His eyes hardly move. Then watch when he's speaking of his health care proposal... they're a'fluttering. Perhaps it's just a coincidence.. but I'm not so sure.
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#58
What's your point?
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re: 35 from redwhiteandermblue "someone who is calm, friendly, rational.... someone who would make a good impression on foreign leaders and people in general. .. someone I'd like to have as a boss.
In all three senses, Obama seemed much closer to what I want."
-----------
Excellent point! The whole thing about a Presidential -Administraion- is that the guy at the top, even if he -calls- himself `straight talking' like McCain, has to walk the walk. In fact, McCain's underlings would obviously soon become a bunch of `yes' men lest they suffer his wrath, and you'd soon have a lonely old self-rightous grump from a priviledged background, getting more senile through lack of proper social interaction. One of his main points at the RCN was that he'd veto everything. What joy is negtivity? The proof lies in his schizophrenic campaign with Palin. And there's not even any need to go into her and her husband's administrative ethics. The Alaskans have done so already.
Meanwhile Obama's campaign glides along. Beacuse people must obviously enjoy working for it. There may be the occasional glass of Kool Aid but its better than a faceful of spit and venom.
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Now, I did post this on another thread, silly me, fast as I can read one another one pops up. So, apologies for a copy/rehash but,
as I said after the 2nd debate, when Obama stayed behind and signed loads of autographs and had his picture taken with just about everyone in the room, and McCain scuttled off - "they know who their next President is going to be".
And I saw nothing that chaged that last night.
If I can introduce a plumbing metaphor, and a real one (see below!), I think that McCain is a sacrificial anode. The neocons are using him to flush out (another one!) wishy washy (!) liberals from republican ranks. So the rabid right can tighten their evil grip. And they hope the mess they've left will be impossible to clear up by 2012, America will be further down the drain (!),when a new shining light (ideas anyone - thought Tim Pawlenty (?) did the bus last night) will take on Obama.
Peace and love
No autographs please
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Sorry!!!!!
And this one, but it is referenced above, so
"Now,
ref Joe the plumber. I'm not one to gossip ...... but what I've read recently suggests the shaven headed one:
Is really Sam the plumber (is that you Sam?)
Might be registered to vote but couldn't spell his name correctly (could he be related to Palin?), so with the new stringent checks the rabids are asking for in Ohio he won't be able to vote
He earned about $40,000 a couple of years ago working for a local firm
He is not licenced as a plumber and should not be working as one!
There is no firm he's looking to buy
He did military service in Alaska (spooky!)
He has a court case against him for unpaid taxes (now that's commitment to the rabids cause!)
And he might be related or connected to a major neocon contributoir and one Charles Keating?
and I'll stop now as my tears are welling up in the keyboard.
Peace and love
No autographs I said!"
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I have not read anywhere on this blog comments about Obama's summing up in the debate last night.
Am I the only one who was transfixed by the man's control, calm, sweeping summary, delivered in a manner both eloquent and inclusive? He spoke to me in much the same way Clinton was able to make me and so many others feel part of a bright future. I was not the only one. Who noticed as soon as the two men got up, McCain was the first to speak - "Good job."
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vrs dubhub, icetayoa
You guys are something. Not quite the literary pretensions of some old comedy favourites on here (MIA2, John3A).
But by golly you do make me laugh.
Innocence and naivetee at these levels are hard to credit. Or is it the opposite of both?
peace and love
No autographs please
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#48
Ladies,
Do we have to treat men as sex objects? It's demeaning and disgusting.
Snark snark.
Finbarr Samders
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To#73Samtyler1969
You are fun!
Please, we can not elect a president on the basis of his wife's physical attraction or maybe NOT.
I will have to confess that my dear one also likes Michelle. He calls her "beauty and brains" which he says is also why he fell in love with me. This man is really smart. Can I say this is why I continue to feed, pamper and generally spoil him after all these years?
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newbriton:
It was a joke. I was playing on the fact that NBC is always accused of having a liberal bias and Fox is always accused of being a Republican propoganda machine. I actually watched the debate on CNN. I'm also British myself.
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#68
To a certain extent your analysis holds water. It is also true that the candidate who can more clearly explain his proposals probably has a better grasp of the issues. I think it is clear that the eloquence Obama is frequently mocked for enables him to deliver coherent explanations of his plans; this undoubtedly works in his favour.
In further support of your comments many voters rely only on the TV demeanor of the candidates, and this is depressing.
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I am a Brit living in the US so I don't get to vote. But I have to tell you the hype surrounding Obama far outweighs the substance. It will all end in tears - this is a classic emperor's new clothes situation. Before I started taking an interest I was an Obama supporter because I thought - hey, he stands for change, Bush is bad, the Republicans have messed up, it will be good for the country and the world to have a non-white president, he has charisma, he speaks eloquently....and on and on and on.
But if you can look through that - if you really do look to his record, if you look to what he has done (& not done) in the past, where he has voted and what his plans will mean then you would realise that the reality is he is basically proposing a tax and spend agenda, the like of which the US has never seen before. His solution to EVERYTHING is "we need to spend a little more" and that is how he justifies the tax hikes. He is a socialist and I predict in 4 years time everyone will look back and think "what were we thinking ?"
John McCain is unfortunately living in the shadow of George Bush. People forget that that the Democrats (Obama's party) have run the Congress for the last 2 years....that would be like having Gordon Brown being the PM with his selected cabinet, but a house of commons that has a Tory majority blocking any major bills bought to the house by the government. Who would you blame for the financial ills if that had been the case in the UK for the last 2 years ?
Given this backdrop, McCain is not the best opponent for Obama. He offers blunt honesty about what he would do....many, including myself, disagree with a number of his planned policies, but there is little doubt that he would bring far greater transparency and honesty to Washington. The bluntness and honesty however are not delivered in the same silk smooth packaging that Obama commands. If they were...then who knows although I suspect the message of change is something that too many are clinging onto without really having any idea of what the actual change is that Obama promises he will bring.
The only "change you can believe in" is that come January we will have a new President in the White House, probably Barack Obama, and the US problems will then go from bad to worse. Remember you read it here first.
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It is far to late but for the next 19 days McCain should run against Obama, Pelosi and Reid.
Thsi work on the State level for Romney
Point out that secreat ballot Union election will be gone
Most american are not pro Union
Point out the cap of Trial lawyers fees will be gone
Fight against the teachers Unions
ETC
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Ref 22
"It's so funny he can't lift his arms up above the level of his shoulders."
No, it is not funny at all. Sen. McCain can not raise his arms over his shoulders because of the injuries he suffered in Vietnam. I suspect your inappropriate comment is based on ignorance, but if it was intentional it certainly doesn't say much for you.
I am a Democrat and an Obama supporter, but under no circumstances would I ridicule or make fun of a war veteran because of his injuries or war-related handicap. Shame on you!
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To#87Newbriton
Thank you for your comments. I was just writing what I had observed. It is sad but in the US, physical appearance on the TV is often more important than intelligence, grasp of issues or ability to actually think before acting.
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just in case you didn't think that ol john had all the answers heres his new video
ggeeezzz I love the part about things haven't been going well for the last eight years . but I have a plan . I' ll make it better!
....... maybe he is going to become a Democrat ?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/10/new-john-mccain.html
Sorry John too late ... I voted early yesterday and it wasn't for you
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To#84Samtyler
Of course we do! I will stand my dear one up to all of you men at any time.
He is the BEST!
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No doubt, Joe the plumber will have the worlds press on his doorstep and will appear on the front cover of some magazine before too long.
I'm sure the press will be offering him enough money to buy his business! who needs politics! He will also probably have an album out right in time for Christmas!
This is all clever stuff designed to take peoples minds (and the press) off the real issues and appeals to our love of celebrity.
This election is about representation, we only have to look at recent results to see that the country is split down the middle. Whoever gets into the Whitehouse, nearly half the population will feel unrepresented. The key to winning is going to be which candidate can appeal to the swing voters and also appeal to serve both Democrats and Republicans fairly. Kind of obvious really, though neither candidate has tried to get this across.
Right now, its looking good for Obama. I do think McCain might have shot his campaign in the foot with his attacking strategy. I quite like McCain but he has removed any endearing qualities by his patronizing of Obama especially with the go visit Columbia remark. Obama has been clever not to retaliate and I think that has struck a chord with people. If McCain goes into world affairs like he has in these debates, even though he has vast experience, he could be a provoker rather than a healer.
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Sorry, but Little Johnny can get those pinkies above his head - and not an ounce of pain in sight ;o)
http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2008/05/28/2011/gop_frets_despite_mccains_once-presumed_advantage_from_democrats_long_fight
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Sorry, but Little Johnny can get those pinkies above his head - and not an ounce of pain in sight ;o)
http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2008/05/28/2011/gop_frets_despite_mccains_once-presumed_advantage_from_democrats_long_fight
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Dear #84,
Yes we do. Yes it is.
But long after the smoke from this election clears, lust remains. And I'm no lady. If I were, an accent straight out the North of England wouldn't be my cup of tea. (Woof!)
BTW, everything about an American election is over-hyped. I would like to think that we could be more efficient and logical than thi, but we tend to extremes.
Remember what the Brits said was wrong with American forces during WWII? "Over-paid, over-sexed..." (..."and over here" - but that was the good part.)
If another Right-winger takes the government, I may be right behind the troops, if a little tardy.
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So here's my take, why oh why are so many people OUTSIDE of America worried about this, it's not your election, it's not your Premier or Head of State, so why do you worry about Us, mind the log in your own eye before worrying about the one in ours, bash us you will but whine and beg when you need to, and that is repeated often, but where else I ask you do you find any country that has and continues to give more to the world than us? answer that honestly if you can but leave our own buisness to ourselves, we really don't give a whoot who you elect or don't elect, for those few countries that have that luxuray, so leave this one to us and again worry about your own people, we'll be just fine thankyou.
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Can an ignorant Brit ask a question?
Why is the election so long, surely it was never meant to tie up so many people for so long at such ridiculous expense?
Back in the day, we could excuse some of it - travel by horse and cart, limited newspapers (also travelling by....), need for stump speeches, etc. Or did that happen?
Surely a couple of months for the primaries, at most, and a month for the main event would be enough? Would the quality go down ;-~
Saving the American taxpayer a fortune. Saving Joe Public a fortune in donations. Costing the TV companies, blonde bimbo's and neocons, and Press a fortune.
And if an incumbent is running that would leave them to run the country. So it would be as well run as it has been lately.
Seems sensible all round to me. Except my last point oops.
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#93
Aqua,
Kinky stuff? Alright, I'm in.
Openminded Sam
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Obama was the winner of debate # 3, McCain continues to press non issues and fabrications as though they are actually true. It is not just his facial expressions and the disgusting sounds he emits during these encounters that bother me. There is a long list of outright lies that are put forward on a daily basis by his campaign staff, that are meant to distract the voters from the real issues. Palin was his first mistake, and continues to embarrass the Republican Party every chance she gets. Joe the Plumber is neither, his name is Sam, and he holds no license in Ohio to practice the trade. Thanks to McCain and his lack of investigation into talking points such as these, the poor guy is now subject to investigation by the contractors board in Ohio, this along with his many other problems will probably make him think twice before expressing his lop sided, not very well thought out opinions to another politician. I am an Independent voter from the commonwealth of Virginia, and this year my vote will be for the level headed ticket of Obama and Biden. They are our best hope for gaining back some modicum of respect in the International Community, which we dearly need, and the rest of the world deserves.
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#88
As a fellow Brit living in the US and enjoying all it has to offer I will not forget. However you flatter yourself, you're not the first to express this point of view. Remember the electorate have a choice. The clear and preferable choice for me is Obama. Not so much because of the man, although I greatly admire him, but more for what he and the Democratic party stands for. This is probably a hold over from my UK experience where we tend to vote based on policies and not on how a candidate parts his hair. The issues that are important to Obama are the same ones that are important to me. Coming from the UK you have been used to universal health coverage (despite what its warts may currently be) - it doesn't exist here. The Republicans don't want it. Obama feels health care is a RIGHT for every man, woman, and child, McCain does not. Social services that you have taken for granted simply are unavailable for great numbers of people in the US. Education is underfunded and as a result the USA can be found at the bottom of any measurement list. The environment is given lip service by Republicans and now McCain's running mate claims climate change is not of man's making and is part of God's grand design.
Universal health care, protection of the environment, education do not come at no cost. If you mean that the US is heading towards socialism because Obama is serious about providing the American people with these things, then you may be right. In my mind it is a noble goal. Obama's experience is clear and well documented, as are his proposals. He has and will continue to surround himself with competent advisors who will help him attain an improved social and economic condition for the US.
As far as greater transparency and honesty, I have to assume you're being sarcastic. McCain has agreed with Bush over 90% of the time. Bush has shredded the Constitution, suspended and ignored the law, spied on the American people, slowed advances in scientific and medical research and caused his country to be viewed in a less than positive manner throughout the world. Please don't give me the that's Bush not McCain argument - a McCain presidency would be just a third term for Bush.
BTW the US recognizes dual citizenship. If you're going to spend any time here maybe you should consider applying for US citizenship.
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How can any dialouge be established here when it takes so long for the comments to be posted?
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#86
Oh well, well that's OK then. I am so weary of the misinformed (let me change that to uninformed), shallow comments I read, that I tend to pounce. Apologies, I should have detected the MontyPythonesque humour.
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Well I'm going to go watch the Red Sox game, this takes way too long, who's in charge anyway, Austin Powers?
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John McCain's most formidable opponent has turned out to be John McCain. His demeanor, particularly his barely suppressed anger, is damaging his campaign much more than his inadequate fiscal and economic proposals.
Incredibly, the reputable Gallup poll shows the race tightening with Obama leading the popular vote by only two points, well within the margin of error. Most polls indicate Obama has a comfortable electoral college lead that exceeds the 270 margin required to win.
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87, newbriton.
"....many voters rely only on the TV demeanor of the candidates, and this is depressing."
When we judge someone, let's say someone we meet at a party, without even thinking about it consciously, we watch his eyes, the way he holds himself, his facial expressions, the way he expresses himself, his warmth, his coldness.
All of these traits add up our first impression. And, again without thinking about it, we decide whether or not we like him, trust him, want to know him better. Although it is really an analysis, we call it instinct. And we instinctively trust our instincts.
So when McCain does not look people in the eye, when he sneers, when he smiles a fake smile, when he strains to control his temper, we learn a great deal about the man. Is it unfair to give our instincts more importance than the substance or lack of substance of what he says? Maybe yes, maybe no, but instinct wins.
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#88 I share some but not all of your concerns regarding Obama. I am an independant and will vote for him but how can anyone repair all the damage that has been done to this country (invading countries that pose no direct threat, financial mismanagement, and to top it off finding out the Dept. of the Interior was literally in bed with big OIL). The question is not can Obama fix the mess the question is can anyone?
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84, Sam.
You bring up something interesting - the resentment of being treated by the opposite sex as sex objects. That's really dumb. What else could the opposite sex be? Personally I always liked it and dressed to provoke it. But, then, I really liked men.
Politically incorrect ex-hotpot.
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although obama is in the polls that is very misleading. Gore led by 11 in the polls against Bush and Kerry also led in the polls against Bush. We all saw how that turns out. Dems are poor closers and shouldnt get too excited.
the trash talking has started already.
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America has:
a crumbling infrastructure.
a failing economy.
a poor education system.
an expensive health care programme.
spent much of its worldwide political capital.
run up huge debts.
propagated an unjust war.
alienated itself from its allies.
often inward looking.
America also has:
enormous faith in itself.
hard working people.
massive natural resources.
unshakable optimism.
a leadership role in the world.
America needs:
a new direction.
to pull itself up.
to engage with the rest of the world.
to realise that there are others on this planet.
As a republican by nature I would normally vote for the GOP. However we need a younger, brighter, fresher face in the White House. So I will, on this occasion, vote for Obama.
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#109
Who said X?
Happy Sam
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To#100Samtyler1969
Bring it on as my younger grandchildren would say.
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112. Sam.
My husband would agree with you, but, then, he has always been a little slaphappy.
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I've a healthy distrust of anyone with enough hubris to actually aspire to high office; there is still wisdom in the old adage that wanting the job of president is a sure sign that you're not qualified.
That being said, I've dealt with managers and executives of all stripes for a number of years and have been a student of "leadership." A good executive is approachable, and can connect with people of all levels within their organization. Their job is largely one of inspiring and coaching, and listening. A good executive can be told by the people with whom they surround themselves- people who aren't afraid to speak the truth. A true leader takes the time to learn the facts, and to get opinions from everyone. And a good leader, while certainly permitted to express anger, does it in a productive way, directing it at problems, or at themselves. A good leader owns up to their own mistakes, and doesn't punish those who point these mistakes out. And a good executive has a sense of humility, and doesn't have a sense of entitlement, and learns judgment by respecting the judgment of others.
While both candidates have exhibited some of these traits, McCain just isn't coming off as a competent leader. And if the stories and rumors of his temper are even half true, then I don't think he deserves the job as leader of this country...
(especially after the stunt of tapping Sarah Palin. Don't get me started...)
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#88. GBinUS: "(Obama) is a socialist and I predict in 4 years time everyone will look back and think "what were we thinking ?"
Since you are from the UK, then I can only suppose that you don't remember 'socialism' back home. From utilities to major industries to the Bank of England, everything of importance was nationalised. Tell us what part of 'socialism' is Mr Obama trying to foist on us? And if he were a Socialist, remember that the British have had left-wing governments time and again, they're not voted out so quickly as you anticipate for Mr Obama, assuming that he wins.
#102: newbriton: "BTW the US recognizes dual citizenship. If you're going to spend any time here maybe you should consider applying for US citizenship."
Actually not. Notwithstanding Afroyim v. Rusk, check the Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
When you are in the US you are considered to be a United States Citizen only. If you have not forsworn your British Citizenship to a British Consular Officer (or other official) your 'new' nationality will be ignored by British authorities.
The State Department tolerates dual nationality rather than accepting it. Nevertheless, what is the point of taking a new nationality if you intend retaining the one formerly held? Allegiance to no-one is the result. Don't forget that, generally speaking, an individual must reside in the United States for a minimum of five years before applying for Naturalization, unless he or she has been in the US military or is married to a US citizen. There are a number of other exceptions, but "spending some time here" is hardly a good reason for a change of citizenship; it does provide the opportunity to vote and to get security clearance, but otherwise, citizens and 'permanent residents' are treated equally.
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#113, 114
Two at once?
Yeah baby, yeah!
Sam Powers
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McCain and Obama were just on TV live doing comedy speeches together, very friendly. Obama said "Barack" was Swahili for "that one" and he and McCain laughed. Obama better for cerebral president, McCain and Clinton needed in the Senate trenches. Focus now should be on pullin the US out of the S***t. Neither candidate can do a thing from their platforms without the legislature.
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meminmk (#99), the reason election seasons are short in places such as the UK and Canada is that they are not regularly scheduled. For example, the PM of Canada called an election just a few weeks ago, and it was held this week. In the US, the election is scheduled at regular intervals, and because the President is limited to two terms, it is known when he is ineligible to run again and usually presumed that an incumbent will run for a second term. Because of this, potential opponents have all the time they want to plan a campaign for the presidency, and they usually do so about two years before the election. There is no way to prevent this short of repealing our rights of free speech and press. These rights are dear to most of us, so it's not going to happen.
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meminmk (#99), I should have added that there have been proposals made to schedule the primaries differently to have fewer primary days with regional primaries, and to compress the primary season. The difficulty here is state's rights. The national parties are actually associations of state parties which have some autonomy within their individual states. Each state legislature sets its own primary date and rules. One of the controversies this year was that two states (Florida and Michigan) scheduled their primaries earlier than the national parties allowed. There was a lot of arguing about that. I don't think there is any way that something comparable could happen in a UK party process.
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115, Via.
Interesting and informative post. I note that we arrive at the same spot by different routes, one analytic and one intuitive (#107). I should think they are two sides of the same coin.
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#116 David_Cunard
Thank you for your comments. However you're out of date on this. Go to
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/dual_citizenship.html
My throw away "spending some time" really was intended to point out that if the gentleman was more than a holidaymaker becoming a citizen would have advantages, not least that he would be able to vote. There are some important tax considerations also, particularly if he marries a US citizen.
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To#117Samtyler1969
You could wish!
MsAllmymarbles and I might be the death of you!
I like you so I do not want this. Maybe MsAllmymarbles has an other idea. Behave youself!
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#123
Aqua,
I took a cold shower.
Chilled Sam
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Hey, Sam, there you are; hope you enjoyed your
shower.
I'm glad to see that there are some bad women
posting on this blog.
And now, since you are replenished, I wonder
if you could enlighten me on some aspects
of the Obama-Biden economic plan.
1) Their web site talks about no capital gains
for start-ups and small businesses. How do
they define a "small business," or, for that
matter, a "start-up?"
2) Are they making the R&D credit that was
attached to the bail-out plan permanent, or
are they going to rework it?
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To#125Gunsandreligion
I am sure that Sam can answer this better than I can but one of my daughters and her husband own a small business and my husband and I also do organic farming in a small way since we have retired. We have all voted for Obama. Some of McCain's proposals would be ruinous for us.
Neither of our businesses net over 250,000. We would so like to provide some kind of affordable health care for people who work for us. We would also like some kind of guest worker plan that would allow us to employ our good people without penalty. I really can not say any more. Family farms and small business are suffering under a yoke that penalizes us and allows bigger business to just get richer.
I think that Joe The Plumber was a republican plant!
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#125 ....not heavy on detail but i copied this from a post i made earlier. in Justin's previous topic:
"
so guns nreligion, I just saw on cnn fact check that obama's plan will affect about 500 000 businesses, thats roughly just under 2% of businesses registered in the country.
the repub criticism is that his taxes would include people who do book deals, etc. but the fact check folks said it isnt true.
currently the way obama's plan work is any income higher than the 250 000 threshold will be taxed at the higher rateso if you made 260 000 only 10 000 will be taxed at the higher rate.
they have not posted it on their website yet but I suppose they will soon.
Also this Joe the plumber guy would actually get a tax ct from Obama, seeing that he would have to make 250 k or more profit to fall in this bracket.
"
so i suppose obama's definition of a small profit is any business that makes a net profit of 250 k or more and not gross.
Sam is the accountant though. :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#126, aquagirl, can you be more specific about which
part of McCain's proposals would harm your business?
And, what have you and Ms. Marbles done with Sam?
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My sister is a great believer in conspiracy theories and probably alien visits, as well. I do try to avoid that kind of conversation with her.
However, she is very worried about free speech on the internet and has concerns that if "certain persons have their way," we will no longer have open discourse.
I am wondering if she could be correct because I have been bounced from this site three times in the last hour when I tried to post.
Our dear PTB's have not released a post for over thirty minutes. A question I have asked is this: How many of you who post here have already voted?
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#122. newbriton - With respect, that is not an official US Immigration site, it is, as noted in the header, "An Independent Organization, not a U.S. Government Agency."
Despite what this commercial site states, when you take the Oath of Naturalization you give up your former citizenship, at least as far as the United States is concerned. The fact that the State Department does not pursue the point is immaterial. It has in the past, and if push came to shove, with the surge of Latino immigrants, then it is as likely as not that a bigger interest will be taken.
If one is domiciled here, then there should be no tax considerations in the UK for British 'permanent residents' - and once one has a "green cared" a social security number can be obtained. That wasn't always so and I had mine before I was a "permanent resident." The tax implications are no different for citizens and permanent residents; if two permanent residents are married they have all the tax benefits of married US citizens filing jointly.
I don't think GBinUS is "on holiday" and he appears to be uninformed about American (and British) politics. Barack Obama is no more a socialist than is David Cameron!
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#130, aquagirl, I believe that the BBC server
is having some technical difficulties, and perhaps
even a Denial of Service Attack.
I wouldn't take it personally, I'm having the same
problems connecting to the site.
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Post #98; exsquidao wrote: "So here's my take, why oh why are so many people OUTSIDE of America worried about this, it's not your election, it's not your Premier or Head of State, so why do you worry about Us, mind the log in your own eye before worrying about the one in ours, bash us you will but whine and beg when you need to, and that is repeated often, but where else I ask you do you find any country that has and continues to give more to the world than us? answer that honestly if you can but leave our own buisness to ourselves, we really don't give a whoot who you elect or don't elect, for those few countries that have that luxuray, so leave this one to us and again worry about your own people, we'll be just fine thankyou."
We care because your country has a significant impact on world events, and that affects us in a very tangible way. Haven't you heard the saying "When America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold"?
I feel compelled to point out that it is *your* country's fiscal recklessness and incompetence which brought the world's economy to its knees; it is *your* country which supported Saddam Hussein in the 1980s and helped to make him the monster that you would later attack in an illegal war; it is *your* country that has done more to agitate Islamic terrorism around the world; it is *your* country that has entered smaller, weaker nations and established brutal puppet governments for her own expedience (see the article here: http://tinyurl.com/plk8n); and it is *your* country that continues to demand free trade with other nations whilst practising blatant protectionism via tariffs and government subsidies for her own primary industries (see the article here: http://tinyurl.com/6bh964).
You say: "but where else I ask you do you find any country that has and continues to give more to the world than us?" Cross the Atlantic and you'll find her: Great Britain, the world's first industrial nation and mother of democracy. She has and continues to give more to the world than the USA, and she's been doing so for more than a thousand years. By contrast, see the articles here: http://tinyurl.com/689jlm for America's deplorable legacy.
You say: "we really don't give a whoot who you elect or don't elect, for those few countries that have that luxuray". This is part of the problem; your country affects others disproportionately, but her citizens have so little knowledge of the world outside their own doorstep that they do not realise the incredible harm they cause by electing the wrong people.
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Sarah Palin on SNL - that may be worth watching! Perhaps Tina and Sarah can do that old Irving Berlin duet - "Sisters, sisters - there were never such devoted sisters" or, better still, Jerry Herman's "Bosom Buddies":-
Tina:Tho' now and again I'm aware that my candid opinion may sting,
Sarah:Tho' often my frank observation might scald; I've been meanin' to tell you for years, You should keep your hair natural like mine.
Tina:If I kept my hair natural like yours, I'd be bald.
I think Jerry would even write a special version! But perhaps I am what I am might be more appropriate.
#133. Sankari "(American) citizens have so little knowledge of the world outside their own doorstep that they do not realise the incredible harm they cause by electing the wrong people."
It hardly needs to be said that the comment is nonsense; although I am British, living in California, you might consider the harm that the British Empire caused along with its success; you might also consider the harm done by successive Labour governments following World War II - and after all, it was not America that declared war on Germany. And you might also consider the harm caused by electing Tony Blair to office, who was untruthful about the situation in Iraq and now it is revealed, was equally untruthful about the Formula One affair (a British domestic issue involving tobacco advertising). If you are so omniscient about American politics, then tell us not who are "the wrong people" but rather who are the right ones.
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133 Sankari Well Spoken!
Unfortunately most citizens of the US are very parochial, and view the world through red, white, and blue spectacles. This is a classic characteristic of the petulant teenager, who refuses to grow up. Part of the maturation process is to be able to see and empathise with "the other".
Playing the devil's advocate often gets me in to trouble, especially when I ask folk about the people in the world killed by US forces. It is as if a life outside of the country is somehow worth less than one inside the borders.
In this global village we need to care for each other, in a balanced way, for each, man, women, child and elder.
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#116 and 131
You wrote : "I don't think GBinUS is on holiday and he appears to be uninformed about American (and British) politics. Barack Obama is no more a socialist than is David Cameron!"
You are correct - I am not on holiday, I have lived in the US for over 2 years and I beg to differ on your political comparison.
David Cameron is a centre leaning Tory (more akin to a John McCain than a Sarah Palin perhaps). Cameron is certainly no Maggie Thatcher but I am sure he would not wish to be tainted with having the same tax-and-spend policies of Obama.
Barack Obama is more akin to Gordon Brown....a closet socialist if ever there was one.....a man who pursues the traditional left-wing "politics of envy"....you have it and I want it.
In your estimatation I am uninformed on politics on both sides of the Atlantic. Well, they say the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter. Perhaps you believe that also and therefore believe the activities of the democratic funded Acorn are a step in right direction for society (hey - the ends justify the means right...because Obama knows best?)
I think I have a reasonable grasp of the situation on both sides of the Atlantic thank you. I think I recognise that there has not been a real "left-wing" government in the UK since 1979 (thank goodness) when Labour's James Callaghan was shown the door by Mrs Thatcher. After 18 years of the conservatives we then had Tony Blair for 10 years - and remember, Mr Blair inherited an economy that was booming.......the Tories only lost in 1997 because they had become complacent and in some parts corrupt, the population despised them and they had to go, and quite right.....but the economy was booming - check out http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/05/21/ceco21.html !!)
Tony Blair is probably more right wing than John McCain !! However, during his 10 year tenure in which he promised not to raise income taxes on anyone - his financial gatekeeper Gordon Brown (remember him?) basically increased every other form of tax known to man so that today the average UK citizen pays 10p in the pound more in tax (direct or indirect) and yet "income tax" remains unchanged.....stealth tax I think we call it. UK citizens have become numb to it.......big government will take its cut.
This is the very essence of what I predict Obama will do....lots of promises of tax cuts for 95% of the population....but before you know it there will be tax on CO2 emissions, even more taxes taxes on gasoline, taxes on flight tickets, taxes on home heating bills, taxes on the size of your garden, taxes on garbage, taxes on what you eat, taxes on the capital gains of your pension investments, taxes on what you wear.....and on and on and on. We (in the US) will all end up far worse off financially, but the "income tax" for 95% of the population will have come down and that is what we will keep on being told. We will be told we are better off - we will be told we are paying less tax - but it won't be true. That's what they call BIG government here and that is what Obama is going to bring so we will just have to suck it up......until 2012.
And who knows....maybe the pied piper will run another 4 years after that. He has the press in his pocket after all. The Messiah he ain't but it might take people a few years to get over the Bush years and ultimately realise that they really don't have to stick needles in their eyes as penance for voting in George W twice.
Don't get me going on the UK NHS and education. In 10 years Labour has doubled spending on the NHS and for what exactly ? The system is broken and its interesting to note that the introduction of the NHS coincided with the demise of the UK as an international super-power. To para-phrase the Messiah......no society has been able to maintain its superiority in the face of an economic meltdown (or words to that nature)....& he is right (for once)....and the NHS is an example of what an economic albatross can do to a nation.
I am all for guarding the health of the nation, a good education for everyone and looking after those who need help most.....it just does not need to be done by central government tax-and-spend, tax-and-spend.
Best regards : Politically ignorant (apparently) in California
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Am I the only one who noticed McCain stating that ex-soldiers should be allowed to teach in schools without any other qualifications?
America's adoration of the military seems to have reached new extremes!
I don't see how military experience prepares anyone for anything other than things military, apart from whatever techinical skill were learned in the process.
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Ha ! All is revealed !
BBC Radio has just informed us that Joe the Plumber is really called Sam.
So now we know - all that dreamin' about Michelle was just a cover because somebody'd nicked his monkey wrench.
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# 136 - GBinUS
A tax on garbage ? Maybe that's not such a bad idea.
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Post #134; David_Cunard wrote: "#133. Sankari "(American) citizens have so little knowledge of the world outside their own doorstep that they do not realise the incredible harm they cause by electing the wrong people."
It hardly needs to be said that the comment is nonsense"
It is hyperbole, and I assumed most people would recognise that. It was not intended to be taken literally, and I am sure you knew this.
Bluster aside, we both know that there is an element of truth to it. Indeed, the person to whom I was responding, is a classic example of the point I was making.
"although I am British, living in California, you might consider the harm that the British Empire caused along with its success; you might also consider the harm done by successive Labour governments following World War II - and after all, it was not America that declared war on Germany."
Yes, Imperial Britain has oceans of blood on her hands; this is not disputed. Both Labour and Tory governments have have served their country ill over past decades; this is not disputed. But it is still true to say that throughout her long and frequently ignoble history, Great Britain has done more for the world than the USA.
My maternal grandfather fought in WWII, and my paternal great-grandfather fought in WWI. I'll thank you not lecture me on either of them.
Do you think it was wrong for Britain to declare war on Germany? I don't believe you do, so why raise the point? Since you are British, do I really need to remind you that Britain's war against Germany was a defensive one, initially entered in support of her allies and later fought for her own self-preservation? At least it wasn't an illegal war of aggression.
"And you might also consider the harm caused by electing Tony Blair to office, who was untruthful about the situation in Iraq and now it is revealed, was equally untruthful about the Formula One affair (a British domestic issue involving tobacco advertising)."
Fortunately, I did not elect Tony Blair to office. Yes, he lied about Iraq and supported the illegal American war; this is not disputed. And yes he was untruthful about the F1 affair; this is not disputed.
All you've done here is to support me by further illustrating my argument that the global village is greatly affected by the actions of its constituents. Just as American politics has a direct consequence for the world, so too does British politics. It is the same for all the major powers.
"If you are so omniscient about American politics, then tell us not who are "the wrong people" but rather who are the right ones."
I made no claim to be "omniscient about American politics", so why use this term?
But since you ask: I regard Obama as the lesser of two evils. He is not the cureall for America's woes, but I believe he's a safer pair of hands than McCain. A vote for Obama would be a step in the right direction.
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Many pollsters are wondering if their polls are acurate due to race. Will white Americans who said they will support Barack Obama actually vote for him. I hope the attitudes of the civil rights years are no longer relevant. It seems to be mcains only chance at the white house.
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Sam, I have to say that I always thought you were from the US. Referencing Viz (#84) makes me wonder ....either a fellow Brit or a confirmed Anglophile.
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Post #136; GBinUS wrote: "Barack Obama is more akin to Gordon Brown....a closet socialist if ever there was one.....a man who pursues the traditional left-wing "politics of envy"....you have it and I want it."
Can you provide proof for this assertion, please? I would be keen to see the evidence which proves that Obama (a rich man by anyone's standards) is motivated by the "politics of envy". Who is he envious of - and why?
"Perhaps you believe that also and therefore believe the activities of the democratic funded Acorn are a step in right direction for society (hey - the ends justify the means right...because Obama knows best?)"
Acorn has already been dealt with ad nauseum; it's a dead issue. The gist of this beaten-up non-story is that Acorn caught some of its employees breaking voter registration regulations and *sacked them after alerting the authorities* (Wikipedia offers an unbiased overview here: http://tinyurl.com/54o77a). None of this has any relevance to Obama's political policies or his suitability to the role of POTUS. So please, enough about Acorn already.
"Tony Blair is probably more right wing than John McCain !! However, during his 10 year tenure in which he promised not to raise income taxes on anyone - his financial gatekeeper Gordon Brown (remember him?) basically increased every other form of tax known to man so that today the average UK citizen pays 10p in the pound more in tax (direct or indirect) and yet "income tax" remains unchanged"
Gordon Brown cut the basic income tax in 2007 (see here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6472999.stm). So no, income tax has not remained unchanged.
"This is the very essence of what I predict Obama will do...."
*snip*
Your ability to predict Obama's legislative policies for the next 4 years is breathtaking. I'll be even more impressed if any of it actually comes true. Can we hold you to this? Do you have anything substantial to back up your claims about Obama's intentions? They look like empty rhetoric to me.
"Don't get me going on the UK NHS and education. In 10 years Labour has doubled spending on the NHS and for what exactly ?"
*snip*
Labour has ruinined the NHS; on this we are agreed. But how did she do it? By embracing Tory policies; most notably the infamous PFI initiatives introduced under John Major (see the article here: http://tinyurl.com/4rqfs4). This is not the consequence of left-wing politics, but the legacy of right-wing politics enthusiastically pursued by a closet right-wing Prime Minister (Tony Blair).
"I am all for guarding the health of the nation, a good education for everyone and looking after those who need help most.....it just does not need to be done by central government tax-and-spend, tax-and-spend."
How would you fund adequate health and education in the absence of central government and taxation? Privatisation? Health and education only for those prepared to pay at prices determined by the market?
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Whilst reading a fairly recent edition of THE ECONOMIST, I browsed through the job advertisement section. A common thread that ran through all the adverts were the following requirements in brief.
1. PROVEN STRATEGIC THINKING, LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT SKILLS
2. EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE
3. AN EXCELLENT TRACK RECORD.
These are standard requirements when applying for a job in any organization. My question is simple. If the United States of America were a Corporation that was looking to hire a C.E.O to turn around its fortunes, will Obama’s CV/Resume make it past the screening stage? Will Obama be eligible for an Interview for the post of the C.E.O of United States Of America?
If corporations demand these requirements as conditions precedent for job interviews, why do the MSM think the American voter is any different, and why do they think they do not demand these requirements from their next president??
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ref #137
What McCain has advocated is for certain areas: science and business a degree in teaching is not the most important requirement and it could be waived.
Considering the teachers unions block almost any innovation to improve the U.S school system it's hard to argue against it
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Health care and education are provided for any citizen who needs them in Finland. Our taxes are higher I guess but you can get a university education and have almost free daycare for your kids while you study without paying any extra. There is no free lunch these services must be paid for.
I have lived in several countries but this one has the best of many of life's very necessary needs. Are we socialists? This is the land where Nokia was founded.
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#144 Iceytea,
Does McCain have these traits?
I don't think he does.
It's also worth considering that if any 72 year old applied for a CEO position, or any position other than a bowling club janitor for that matter, they would have their CV thrown in the trash.
So based on your question, if the two rivals went head to head for a CEO position, Obama would win because the employers will dismiss McCain due to his age. They wouldn't read past the 1936 bit...
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I have no problem with Justin's blog. What i have a problem with is the truck load of undeserving accolades poured on Obama at every whim. Its now so ridiculous that whatever Obama does he now looks presidential to his fawning audience. he looks presidential If he smiles, tilts his head this way or that, crosses his leg , keeps mum and knowingly does not answer a question, looks straight into the camera, mumbles the term middle class e.t.c give me a break.
The whole Obama rock star thing is wearing thin and it now reminds me of a cheap Mexican soap. Readers, we are electing a president, and not evicting housemates from BIG BROTHER
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iceytea,
1. Proven strategic, leadership, mgt skills:
he can't even lead his own party properly, most despise his liberalness and Palin seems to have taken over.
2. Extensive Experience
He's older than the sun so I'll give you this one
3. Excellent Track Record.
Voted with Bush most of the time, most of the time this was the wrong thing to do.
I don't really need to go on about it as these things have been said again and again...
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
icetea you posted that rant yesterday.
We are electing a president:
hence the reason people want Obama to win over McCain.
The comment earlier about "if America sneezes, the world catches a cold" - I'm fed up of having a bad cold.
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Re. #71 Magic Kirin
'Second what about the fear mongering of the left, [that] McCain is going to turn women and minorities into second class citzens or start WW3'
... Er, so it's not true then?
---------------------------------
Despite everything - all odds, most polls, the general emotional mood in the US - the fact that a colleague and I were having the conversation that the Republicans can still win, says something...
Perhaps more about our deep-rooted cynicism that Americans wants change, but perhaps also that a desire for change may still be eclipsed by other deep-rooted, almost inexplicable, feelings about Obama. - He is, without question, the better candidate for US President.
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Let's assume for the sake of argument that both candidates meet the hypothetical CEO requirements (I personally believe Obama does, but that's another story).
Let's assume that McCain gets the job and becomes one of the world's oldest living presidents.
Now let's assume that through a combination of poor health and bad luck, he does not survive the first half of his term.
Who stands in when John McCain goes down? Sarah Palin - a woman who not only lacks *all* of the CEO requirements, but has yet to demonstrate that she even possesses the capacity to obtain them.
Does this sound like a good plan for America? I suggest not.
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#149..
yeah right. Why cant you guys defend Obama without attacking Mcain. that says a lot about your 'hero'.
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#153
Thats not true of Palin..she most definitely meets criterions 1 & 3 and some of 2.
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154#
Obama is not my hero, I just think he is a better man for the job.
Palin is not qualified, by any sense of the word, to engage in an form of discussion with other world leaders. feel free to promote her to some sort of internal position but I beg you not to unleash her on the rest of the world.
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#156
Palin is not the person running for president, Mcain is?
You still have not answered my question whether Obama's resume will make it past the screening stage.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I watched the debate and saw McCain get angrier and angrier, as he continued his rant I had the oddest feeling that I'd heard that voice and tone from somewhere long long ago...and then it struck me like a thunderbolt...It was 'Elmer Fudd'
He really sounded like the character from my childhood...in fact as the debate went on he actually became Elmer Fudd personified!
OMG Please don't let them make Elmer Fudd leader of the free world
Duck season, Wabbit season, Duck season....
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#147 wrote : "It's also worth considering that if any 72 year old applied for a CEO position, or any position other than a bowling club janitor for that matter, they would have their CV thrown in the trash."
And you think Obama's resume qualifies him as real-world CEO material when he has never run a real-world business at any level in his life ? What planet are you on ?
#139 wrote "a tax on garbage, not such a bad idea"
Wait until its YOUR garbage getting taxed and wait until your fellow man would prefer to tip his rubbish onto a field or over a fence or leave it on the side of the road instead of having to pay that tax. The solution no doubt will be to INCREASE taxes to pay for the clean up. If you want to reduce garbage - then tax the totally unnecessary packaging that businesses put on some products today
#143 wrote : "I would be keen to see the evidence which proves that Obama (a rich man by anyone's standards) is motivated by the "politics of envy". Who is he envious of - and why?"
It was a metaphor Sankari !! I do not really think people are sticking knitting needles in their eyes either. The metaphor is that Obama represents people who think they should have more of what has been earned by others...and of course that is all wonderful in concept until you find yourself on the receiving end (or should I say the "giving end") because you managed to climb up the greasy pole through your own hard work and dedication.
#143 wrote re Acorn : "Wikipedia offers an unbiased overview here: http://tinyurl.com/54o77a). "
Anyone can write, update and amend what is written on wikipedia so whilst wikipedia in general can be considered apolitical, the comment of any on definition could say just about anything (even after moderation) and should not be considered the gospel truth. For all I know it was written by Obama himself (but that's unlikely because he has absolutely nothing to do with Acorn....and pigs can fly).
#143 wrote : "Gordon Brown cut the basic income tax in 2007 (see here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6472999.stm). So no, income tax has not remained unchanged."
Yes - but if you read my blog it said that GB promised not to "raise" income taxes. He has not...he dropped it a small amount for the lowest earners (so my statement remains correct). The point is through other "stealth" taxes the average Briton pays 10p in the pound more in tax under Labour.
Since the left-wing days of corporate nationalisation & tax-and-spend in the 70s we had 18 years of the Tories under Thatcher and Major and 10 years under Blair which mostly maintained the same course despite Gordon's desperate urge to tax more and more. Basically 28 years of mostly centre-right politics which has drifted to the left in the last few years and we know what the outcome of that is going to be in the next election.
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#131
You are correct the site I cited is not a US Gov. site. That does not mean that the information it contains is incorrect. However I think we are getting into the range of semantics. My point initially was that by becoming a US citizen (which has advantages as prior stated) one does not lose UK citizenship.
On the tax issue I strongly suggest you take further advice. If you are married to a US citizen, do not have US citizenship yourself and your spouse predeceases you your tax liability will be significantly more onerous.
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Sankari and GBinUS - you two fight it out. Somehow I think that we have JohnAAA/vivaelcid back in our midst., or at the very least, a clone.
Sankar's point at #133 was that the United States was responsible for the majority of the ills of the world and touted the excellence of our native land in the most jingoistic of terms. I merely responded in kind. Nowhere is perfect - and if we are to include things which were done in centuries past, then such nations as China and Japan would need to be included - after all, where would be be without fireworks and DVDs?
With regard to your grandfather fighting in the last World War, I am (unfortunately) able to say that my father, his brother and all my uncles on my maternal side fought in the same war, some of whom were at Dunkirk and later D-Day. In WWI ("The Great War" as my family Bible notes) a great-uncle was killed, so to repeat your phrase,I'll thank you not lecture me on either of them.
#136. GBinUS: "You are correct - I am not on holiday, I have lived in the US for over 2 years and I beg to differ on your political comparison."
I wouldn't consider two years a sufficient time to understand the complexities of American politics or to predict what a new president will do. Your list of potential taxes includes items that are already taxed by states, counties and cities; in basic terms, the Federal Government is funded by income tax and excise fees. As you may know, some states do not themselves collect income tax and neither do some cities and counties level sales tax. If the taxes you suggest would be raised, they would be at the local level, not Federal and the President would have no voice in the matter. I do not think that the US will ever see a national tax such as the British have - VAT at 17.5% - and constitutional experts here may be able to explain apportionment.
By my estimation, you will become eligible for Naturalization in 2011, just in time for the 2012 election. However, if you miss that, it won't be until 2016, by which time you may have a better understanding of "the home of the brave and land of the free". As for myself being "politically ignorant", permit me to return that ball to your court; no-one likes a smart-a**.
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Post #160; GBinUS wrote: "#143 wrote : "I would be keen to see the evidence which proves that Obama (a rich man by anyone's standards) is motivated by the "politics of envy". Who is he envious of - and why?"
It was a metaphor Sankari !! I do not really think people are sticking knitting needles in their eyes either. The metaphor is that Obama represents people who think they should have more of what has been earned by others..."
Is this what you sincerely believe? If so, what is the basis of your belief? Where is the evidence that " Obama represents people who think they should have more of what has been earned by others"? If that's what he represents, why is he offering tax cuts to working class people so that they get some of their money back? Are you another one of these strange people who oppose tax cuts for middle income taxpayers?
"#143 wrote re Acorn : "Wikipedia offers an unbiased overview here: http://tinyurl.com/54o77a). "
Anyone can write, update and amend what is written on wikipedia so whilst wikipedia in general can be considered apolitical, the comment of any on definition could say just about anything (even after moderation) and should not be considered the gospel truth."
*snip*
The advantage of Wikipedia is that it's constantly vetted and updated by their staff. All the evidence is there for your perusal; it is also referenced in considerably detail. So don't sit there and try to pretend that it's unreliable, because it most certainly is.
The facts are on the table and you can't ignore them, so now you're just closing your eyes and pretending that they're not there. Well, that's your prerogative; I just hope you understand that it destroys your credibility.
First you failed to substantiate your attacks on Acorn, and now you have failed to address the known, verified, undisputed facts about Acorn. Consequently, we can consider Acorn a closed issue.
"#143 wrote : "Gordon Brown cut the basic income tax in 2007 (see here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6472999.stm). So no, income tax has not remained unchanged."
Yes - but if you read my blog it said that GB promised not to "raise" income taxes. He has not...he dropped it a small amount for the lowest earners (so my statement remains correct)."
Your statement does not remain correct. You said he promised not to raise them, and then you agreed with me that he dropped them. So you've just confirmed that your statement was wrong!
"The point is through other "stealth" taxes the average Briton pays 10p in the pound more in tax under Labour."
I don't know if you're telling the truth here, but even if you are - why should I care? I'm not a Labour man, and I'm not here to defend them. Your claim does not pass the "So what?" test.
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#162
I have no idea who JohnAAA/vivaelcid are....which one am I ?
You think two years living in the US is not enough for me to have a basic grasp of US politics or understand what candidates stand for - but 4 years in the Senate is long enough for someone with zero business experience to become the President of the most powerful country on the planet, someone who will make tax-and-spend decisions that will affect 300 million people in the US (plus the rest of the world) and yet who has never had to balance the books of anything more important than his own personal political campaign.
As for the "politically ignorant" part - that was me signing off (blog #138) as (allegedly) politically ignorant as you had inferred that I was uninformed on both US and UK politics. It was not suggesting that you were politically ignorant....you appear not to be politically ignorant.....just mis-informed ;-)
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#163 wrote
"Are you another one of these strange people who oppose tax cuts for middle income taxpayers?"
No, I am in favour of tax cuts or no tax increases for all. In fact I favour a flat tax system.
You wrote : "The advantage of Wikipedia is that it's constantly vetted and updated by their staff. All the evidence is there for your perusal; it is also referenced in considerably detail. So don't sit there and try to pretend that it's unreliable, because it most certainly is."
I rest my case after reading your last line
You wrote :
"First you failed to substantiate your attacks on Acorn, and now you have failed to address the known, verified, undisputed facts about Acorn. Consequently, we can consider Acorn a closed issue."
You can consider it whatever you like ! I think when a democratic party funded organisation is undermining the very fabric of democracy we all need to be very worried and because my answer did not fulfill your requirements does not make the case closed !
You wrote :
"Your statement does not remain correct. You said he promised not to raise them, and then you agreed with me that he dropped them. So you've just confirmed that your statement was wrong!"
Hello - what is your point ? I stated that Gordon Brown said he would not raise income tax. He has not raised income tax although he has raised every other tax available and invented some new ones. You said I was wrong because Gordon Brown had cut income tax for low rate earners....why does that make
my statement that he has not raised income tax wrong ?
You worte :
"I don't know if you're telling the truth here, but even if you are - why should I care? I'm not a Labour man, and I'm not here to defend them. Your claim does not pass the "So what?" test.
Well what is the point of this discussion then ?
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GBinUS, I should clarify my response to your point about income tax in the UK.
It stems from your original claim in post #136 that "income tax remains unchanged".
My point was to demonstrate that it has not remained unchanged. I have since proved that point beyond all contradiction.
You are probably correct when you say that Gordon Brown promised not to raise taxes (I'll take your word for it), then you said that the income tax rate has not changed (which would mean GB was telling the truth, surely), then you went on about all the non-income taxes he had introduced.
I think your point was that he'd managed to raise taxes by introducing additional, non-income taxes so that he could say he had kept his original promise not to raise income taxes. You're probably right about this too. Either way, I am not sure how it's relevant to the discussion.
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David_Cunard (#162), I agree with your implied point that this debate between two people who are already committed to one side or the other is not going anywhere. There is only one resolution to the question of which candidate has demonstrated to the American electorate that he is better qualified to become our next President. It will be settled on November 4.
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David_Cunard (#131) and newBriton (#161), apparently, becoming a US citizen caused Alistair Cooke some trouble back in the UK, including the right to the title "sir" when he was granted an "honorary" knighthood. (Isn't any knighthood honorary these days, or do actual knights still joust?)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Alistair_Cooke
I'm no expert on these matters. I just find it an interesting story.
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Post #165; GBinUS wrote: "No, I am in favour of tax cuts or no tax increases for all. In fact I favour a flat tax system."
Russia has a flat tax system. How well is that working out for them, do you think? Take a look at their economy and give me your views on its success.
"I rest my case after reading your last line"
Translation: "I cannot refute what you've written". Thankyou for conceding. I knew we'd get there in the end.
"You can consider it whatever you like ! I think when a democratic party funded organisation is undermining the very fabric of democracy we all need to be very worried and because my answer did not fulfill your requirements does not make the case closed !"
Your answer did not fulfil my requirements because your answer did not provide any evidence to support your accusations.
Where is the evidence that Acorn is "undermining the very fabric of democracy"? You don't have any. You never did. You haven't even quoted one single source to support your accusations.
The case is closed because the facts are on the table and the facts completely refute everything you've said on this issue.
More facts here: http://tinyurl.com/42djlq (if you dare to read them).
Notice how I keep posting facts to support my arguments? It's what people do when reality is on their side. Why don't I ever see you doing this?
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#164. GBinUS: "I have no idea who JohnAAA/vivaelcid are....which one am I ?"
Not you - Sankari. However, if you track back (clicking on 'Previous', above) you will find them both. Long-time posters here believe that they are one and the same person; an Englishman (like Sankari) who offers disparaging comments about Mr Obama and almost anything else that catches his eye.
Do you really think that the President actually "balances the books" by himself? It's a team effort with the leader signing off on suggestions which have his approval. Modern life is far too complicated for one man to do it all. I do not see that having "zero business experience" is a bar to the presidency - what great business experience had Reagan, Nixon or Clinton? This year it's about ideas for the future whereas Mr McCain is mired in the past.
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#167. Gary_A_Hill: "There is only one resolution to the question of which candidate has demonstrated to the American electorate that he is better qualified to become our next President. It will be settled on November 4."
Let us hope so - and that there is no repeat of 2000.
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#148 IceTayoa,
Can you tell me what is undeserved about the accolades that Barack Obama is currently receiving?
I ask, because from where I'm sitting, there's no doubt that throughout this campaign (as well as the primaries), he is the candidate who has exhibited the most professionalism, poise and leadership qualities.
I noticed in your post you didn't have one good thing to say about John McCain to counter your argument that Obama doesn't deserve these accolades, which tells its own story.
You don't have to take my word for it, but come November 4th all should be revealed.
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Post # 162; David_Cunard wrote: "Sankari and GBinUS - you two fight it out. Somehow I think that we have JohnAAA/vivaelcid back in our midst., or at the very least, a clone."
I am not JohnAAA/vivaelcid. In fact, if you take the time to revisit some older threads, you will find me arguing AGAINST JohnAAA/vivaelcid.
"Sankar's point at #133 was that the United States was responsible for the majority of the ills of the world"
No, that is a complete distortion of my point. I did not say - or even suggest - that the US is responsible for the majority of the ills of the world. I simply said that Great Britain has done more for the world than the USA. That is what I said. You can go back and read it if you need to.
"and touted the excellence of our native land in the most jingoistic of terms."
I did not do this either. I simply said that Great Britain was the first industrial nation (true) and the mother of democracy (also true). I also pointed out that she has given more to the world than the USA, and has done for more than a thousand years (slight exaggeration perhaps, but I'm sure you'll excuse me).
If that's "jingoistic", I'm a Republican!
Post #163; David_Cunard wrote: "Not you - Sankari. However, if you track back (clicking on 'Previous', above) you will find them both. Long-time posters here believe that they are one and the same person; an Englishman (like Sankari) who offers disparaging comments about Mr Obama and almost anything else that catches his eye."
Again: I am not JohnAAA/vivaelcid, for reasons that should now be obvious. In fact, I am not even an Englishman (where did you get that idea?), though I am a British citizen.
I have lived in the UK since January 2004.
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#173 Sankari "In fact, I am not even an Englishman (where did you get that idea?), though I am a British citizen."
If you're a British citizen and live in England, you are an Englishman regardless of from where you hailed originally. If you live in Scotland you may be considered a Scot, or in Wales, Welsh. In America, naturalised citizens become Americans - a famous example is the English-born star, Angela Lansbury, who has spoken as "an American woman." As President "Teddy" Roosevelt famously said, "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. . . a hyphenated American is not an American at all . . . The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else." The same goes for British citizens.
Incidentally, Great Britain may be considered to be the "mother of Parliaments" but not of Democracy; that claim belongs to the ancient Greeks. And no, you are not excused for the notion that Britain "has given more to the world than the USA, and has done for more than a thousand years" - that's the jingoism to which I referred. Belatedly saying it was "a slight exaggeration" does not mitigate the original statement. If you are to continue to post here, I suggest you be more sparing with your language.
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I just heard that Michelle "one of the people" Obama ordered lobster, champagne and Iranian caviar for her dinner in her hotel last night with Barack....very nice for them......not anyone's business perhaps, but no doubt paid for by the democratic party....aaahhhhh...the trappings of power have come early to Michelle & Barack!
If you want evidence of this ...try
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081017113225AAlt6ol
By the way Sankari - the internet is over-flowing with information about Acorn corruption. I assumed you knew how to use a search engine. How about Investor Business Daily....thats a pretty apolitical organ :
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=308358130652174
if you want to kid yourself that Acorn are acting above the law - go ahead, but the evidence to the contrary seems pretty overwhelming to me.
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#175. GBinUS "I just heard that Michelle "one of the people" Obama ordered lobster, champagne and Iranian caviar for her dinner in her hotel last night . . ." A few lines in the Daily Intel don't exactly qualify as a reliable news source. Even if it did, California, Washington and New York State/s all make splendid "champagne" and lobster is hardly unknown - even my local supermarket has live crustaceans ready for the pot. Similarly with the caviar, although it must be assumed it was Beluga, as it is always Blue. Hardly "the trappings of power."
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#125
Guns,
Apologies for the delay. But Friday is for firearms.
You would expect the definition of a small business to be easy. However, since this is government there is an agency, the Small Business Administration, run by the feds. Faced with the question they took the North American Industry Classification System, a six digit code used to describe various business activities, for example 'Cigarette Manufacturing' and then defines for that industry what a small business is either by receipts or number of employees. For example a professional services firm with sales of $750k or less is a small business. A manufacturer may have a higher threshold as the inputs are more expensive.
So put simply, it depends.
In terms of the R&D tax credit, they are going to tinker with it, it's too complex for a blog but probably net net limited impact. It's a long standing credit that the government messes around with every once in a while.
Regulator Sam
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Post #174; David_Cunard wrote: "If you're a British citizen and live in England, you are an Englishman regardless of from where you hailed originally. If you live in Scotland you may be considered a Scot, or in Wales, Welsh."
What utter balderdash. These are ethnicities; they can't be bestowed upon people by virtue of the time they spend in Great Britan. You're either born with them or you're not.
"In America, naturalised citizens become Americans - a famous example is the English-born star, Angela Lansbury, who has spoken as "an American woman." As President "Teddy" Roosevelt famously said, "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. . . a hyphenated American is not an American at all . . . The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else."
Correct. "American" is not an ethnicity, but a nationality; therefore it can be bestowed upon immigrants who choose to become citizens.
I am, by birth and nationality, an Australian.
"The same goes for British citizens."
Correct. That is why I am a British citizen, but not an Englishman.
"Incidentally, Great Britain may be considered to be the "mother of Parliaments" but not of Democracy; that claim belongs to the ancient Greeks."
You are correct that ancient Greece is the true mother of democracy, but GB claims that title for the modern era, for she spread it to the rest of the world.
"And no, you are not excused for the notion that Britain "has given more to the world than the USA, and has done for more than a thousand years" - that's the jingoism to which I referred. Belatedly saying it was "a slight exaggeration" does not mitigate the original statement."
I didn't ask to be excused. And the only "slight exaggeration" was the "more than a thousand years" part. All the rest is true.
Of course, if you believe that the USA has somehow contributed more to the world within a mere 300 years than Great Britain has in however many centuries we can agree on (600? 700? 800? 900?) then I can only assume that you do not know much British history.
"If you are to continue to post here, I suggest you be more sparing with your language."
LOL! (Was that sparing enough?)
Mountains ? molehills. Learn the difference.
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Post #175; GBinUS wrote: "By the way Sankari - the internet is over-flowing with information about Acorn corruption. I assumed you knew how to use a search engine. How about Investor Business Daily....thats a pretty apolitical organ :
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=308358130652174"
Wow, an op-ed piece from a guy who doesn't sound remotely disinterested and uses inflammatory language like "a radical group" (they're not radical) and "The group's voter-registration fraud is rampant" (it's not).
The article is 9 days old and reports the facts sparingly. It brings no new information to the table, but merely presents old news with an anti-Democrat spin.
What it doesn't tell you is that ACORN was responsible for alerting the authorities in the first place. Nor does it tell you that ACORN also *sacked* the employees whom it caught breaking the rules. Nor does it tell you that ACORN is *legally obliged* to submit all registration forms *regardless of whether or not it knows or believes them to be fraudulent.*
It paints a false picture of what ACORN was doing (trying to imply that the actions of a few were common practice and condoned by the management), does not mention that ACORN itself was the first to expose the fraudsters (how does that fit into your conspiracy theory?), and completely sidesteps ACORN's legal obligations (a significant element of the issue).
"if you want to kid yourself that Acorn are acting above the law - go ahead, but the evidence to the contrary seems pretty overwhelming to me."
ACORN itself is acting within the law (let's remember that they're the ones who called the cops!) but *some ex-employees* did not. Viva la difference; end of story.
You obviously haven't read the material I've posted and the extra material I've linked to. Go and read it.
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#161.newbriton: "My point initially was that by becoming a US citizen (which has advantages as prior stated) one does not lose UK citizenship."
Something with which I agreed - UK authorities do not recognise an oath taken to a foreign country.
"On the tax issue I strongly suggest you take further advice. If you are married to a US citizen, do not have US citizenship yourself and your spouse predeceases you your tax liability will be significantly more onerous." It wouldn't apply to me since I am not married in the conventional sense. But - and I could be wrong - I can't see that citizenship has anything to do with tax liability; resident aliens and US citizens are treated equally. Unless of course you refer to a potential tax liability in the UK.
#178. Sankari - "I didn't ask to be excused." You really should read your own posts before getting your knickers in such a twist. You had written "but I'm sure you'll excuse me" - and I replied that you're not excused. Can't be simpler than that!
The "ethnicities" of the United Kingdom include "Anglo-Saxon" - that is not a nationality, just as "British" is not an ethnicity - or racial description
"I am, by birth and nationality, an Australian." #173 "I am a British citizen." Speaks for itself. However, your screen name is "Sankari" - would you be ethnically Indian perhaps?
"Mountains ? molehills. Learn the difference." As I remarked to GBinUS, no-one likes a smart-a** and you seem to be a prime example. (Incidentally, why the gap between 'mountains' and the question mark? Is it a new fad, like placing circles of the letter 'i' or striking through the number seven when the number one has no 'tail' or serif?)
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Post #180; David_Cunard wrote: "The "ethnicities" of the United Kingdom include "Anglo-Saxon" - that is not a nationality, just as "British" is not an ethnicity - or racial description"
I agree! "British" is a nationality.
"However, your screen name is "Sankari" - would you be ethnically Indian perhaps?"
Nope. "Sankari" is a Finnish name. I'm using a pseudonym.
"(Incidentally, why the gap between 'mountains' and the question mark? Is it a new fad, like placing circles of the letter 'i' or striking through the number seven when the number one has no 'tail' or serif?)"
I inserted the mathematical "not equal" sign, but it seems that this blog does not accept special characters. Still, you seem to have grasped the gist; mountains != molehills.
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98; in case you hadn't noticed, this is an international site provided by a BRITISH broadcaster.
(Talk about perpertrating the stereotype of the US right winger with little knowledge of the outside world and even les sense of irony).
Others have put you straight on the UK's contribution to the world - the language you speak being one, a big part of what created the internet allowing you to post is another.
I'll add that troops from the UK (including friends), are fighting and dying in Iraq and more pointedly, Afghanistan.
As well as other nations.
The conflict Bush 'won' in late 2001 with few US troops but a lot of thuggish and corrupt locals.
Only he didn't did he?
It was left to fester and now Afghans, Pakistanis and troops from the US and NATO are paying the price.
Still, old Rumsfeld knew best didn't he?
(No listening to 'old Europe' for him, y'know, the ones proved completely right about how Iraq would go).
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Mr McCain looked alright to me in the full version - I saw him attack but never saw him reacting to Mr Obama's contributions.
But the reaction shots make him look pretty awful - angry at best, at worst something odder than angry. END QUOTE
hahahahahaaa!!! This post and the one entitled "Sinister..." are hilarious. I wonder if Justin is amazed at how easy it is to fool some people. He's probably used to it now and never second guesses his gift from the gods. I seriously wonder, though, how often journalists and political analysts, who claim to know us, visit places outside of Washington. They may not be fully aware of the complete disconnect between Washington and the rest of the country. It's comparable to the eternal chasm that separates the unwashed from a holy God. That's why successful politicians favor a bill on Friday, go home Saturday, and by Monday, have miraculously changed their mind, repenting of their unwashed ways. Journalists rarely walk that narrow path.
Gov. Sarah Palin comes from outside Washington. I'm grateful to Sen. McCain. If Washington DC supporters will not accept a messenger from the people, what will it take to get them to stop taxing and spending our great-great grandchildren into oblivion?
182. SONICBOOMER,
O'Reilly reports that Germans, yes Germans, do not fight at all in Afghanistan, and others do the bare minimum. IMHO, the US should pull out of NATO, UN, and all FTAs. I would be so happy if we did. I've always wanted us out of the UN and never agreed with the FTAs. Since 9/11, plenty of Americans you stop on the street are angry over anti-Americanism and insults from Canadians and Europeans, which encourage them to want to pull out of NATO, UN, FTAs. It's a backlash.
Combine that with over-taxation. I imagine there will be strong and renewed efforts to stop funding security for 95% of the world in the near future IF our voice matters anymore. I would favor helping Israel and countries like Iraq and Georgia get on their feet. But, the job of circling the globe on a regular basis, keeping the world's shipping lanes safe for transport, guarding the border between N. and S Korea, etc, etc...We could guard our borders and build long fences. We'll only work so many 14-hour days before we refuse to bust another rock at the quarry. And if O and the entitlement crowd get in office...it boggles the mind how we'll manage to survive. Is the world ready to send food aid to the United States?
Nevermind, food aid destroys the natural free market and leads to famine and poverty. We'll manage the hard way, and better in the long run, without "friends."
hugs to 98.
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Post #174; David_Cunard wrote: "If you're a British citizen and live in England, you are an Englishman regardless of from where you hailed originally. If you live in Scotland you may be considered a Scot, or in Wales, Welsh."
Come again?
No, you're British, surely? As in 'British Indian', Jamaican, Iraqi, Arab, Welsh, Scot, Irish, or in my case, depending on how I feel, and whether I'm finding southerners or Brits irritating at the time, a 'northerner' (the part of England where I was born) or 'Italian'. (Never heard anyone call themselves 'Italo-British or Franco-British or "Polish-British' though.)
A friend of mine who's lived in England for more than 40 years, all her adult life in fact, would be very annoyed to hear herself described as either 'English' or British' instead of Irish. And I have another friend, born in England, who has an Iraqi father and a Welsh mother, and who happily describes himself as any one of the three as it suits him. And why not?
And 'Anglo-Saxon' is not an ethnicity except apparently for wasps in the USA. It's a language. It doesn't appear on any form in Britain that I've had to fill in over the last few years that asks me if I'd like to describe my ethnic background. Being white (well, brownish, I suppose, I'm darker-skinned than one of my Arab friends) I'm 'Caucasian'.
(This has all been part of the--to me--rather tedious and unnecessary 'debate' on 'Britishness' of late. I don't think I care what it is, particularly. As long as the country I live in has values that I like, tolerance, and is reasonably civilised, I can't see it matters much in the 21st century. The 'nation state' is after all a relatively recent historical phenomenon, not some god-given eternal quality.)
So I'll quote Antony Trollope (wrining to an American nearly 150 years ago) again: "There is much that is higher and better and grander than one's own country. One is patriotic only because one is too small and weak to be cosmopolitan."
Anyway, this doesn't have much to do with the election, does it? Though why doesn't anyone in the US refer to Obama as 'Hawaiian', come to think of it?
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I watched the BBC Parliament repeats of the three debates, one after the other. This was the single-screen version, in which some are saying McCain did better.
IMHO McCain sounded like a gaffe waiting to happen, constantly having to re-start sentences, and repeating himself endlessly (especially on J the P). Two speculations entered my mind as to why this might be:
1. He was trying to tick off a checklist of prepared key phrases (not a full script) that he'd been learning but hadn't had time to master, and perhaps didn't belive in from the heart.
2. I was seeing a case of early-stage dementia.
I'm a charitable person and wish ill to no-one except perhaps to de facto President Dick Cheney (GWB being merely the front man), so I'll go for the first option.
In both cases though, I thought that McCain was in no way a person to run the world's 2nd most important country after China, and Obama won the debates hands down.
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Leadership demands cool judgment calls and poise under pressure. John McCain's body language proved in the last debate that he has neither. What a disaster he would be in international negotiations. An Annapolis Academy education teaches one to take orders and give orders, not to compromise, listen, learn and work out challenges to each party's benefit. This man does not have the capacity to lead in today's complex world. His so called "experience" is outdated and useless. The voters must be alerted and made aware of this fact when viewing his inappropriate reactions during the debate process.. This is the greatest difference between the two candidates. Obama has the characteristics of a true leader is his confident demeanor.
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Post #184: David_Cunard{came to Canada
on Cudard Lines} & british-ish on citizen-
ship,ethnicity,etc. I was born in Briton of
English parents and moved to Canada
50+yrs. ago. I still have a Britsh pasport
and, when asked my ethnicity, have no
problem with being English,British,Limey,
because for a whole raft of reason I would
rather maintain my British-ish citizenship.
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Post#185 Tonydancer
I saw the debate's on split screen {all 3 of
them}and from the first 'almost' handshake
on the first debate I thought Mr. McCain's
demenor,his attitude,his eye movements,
and general expresions throughout all 3
debates was at least questionable. I have
to ask myself, "does this man not know what he looks like {mad,angry,frustrated,
confused}"obviosly nobody ever told him
about BODY language, presentation,both
physicly and verbally. He should practice infront of the mirror befor he goes on stage.
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