No more flailing
Pugnacious John McCain is about to walk into yet another trap with this suicidal declaration into which he seems to have been goaded by his opponent. He needs to act steady, not flailing. Flailing didn't work. I see meanwhile that the amiable Fred Barnes must have been reading the last post (and replies) on the subject of McCain's best final appeal: don't elect a left wing dictatorship. As I say, slightly early for this to function as an argument but in a week or two it'll be big big big...
There is something deeply desperate about the fraudulent fraud "issue" (even if it adds up to something it screams out technicality) but here is a quick guide to what the problem seems to be and why it doesn't matter.
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It seems to me that neither candidate has the characteristics of a dictator and, from this side of the pond, and based on the policies set out by Mr Obama, the appellation left wing seems more than a little ridiculous.
To embark on such a campaign tactic would surely be the politics of the school playground!
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"Don't elect a left-wing dictatorship",
I don't understand how McCain could possibly play that card after Obama has been clearly labelled a liberal.
A McCain presidency would be a lot more extreme than an Obama presidency.
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From the pajamasmedia site linked above.
"Rathke, one of the most powerful hard-Left activists in America, is a former member of a radical 1960s group, the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). ACORN says its priorities include better housing and wages for the poor, more community development investment from banks and governments, and better public schools."
I don't think radical is strong enough a word for them. Looking for a democratic society, better housing and better schools.
Next they'll be wanting health care and more jobs.
stick a beard on them and call them Castro.
Damn commies, or is it socialists. I can never remeber.
Viva la revolution!
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Besides McCain is more closely tied with a certain administration which has helped to almost bankrupt the country, stole an election, ironically helped in no small part by voter fraud, has led to the deaths of many, manay military and civilians and left the country so divided both sides actually hate each other which to my knowledge doesn't happen in any other major 1st world democracy. the tories don't hate labour. It's absurd!
Isn't this worse?
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Obama isn't left-wing at all and more importantly isn't perceived as left-wing. Justim, you are as out of touch as McCain.
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Justin's new post comes up just after I have been reading that the new CBS/NYT poll shows Obama edging to a 14% lead.
That figure is probably over-optimistic but for the very first time since taking a deep interest in this pivotal US election, I find my faith in the inherent fairness of the American people restored. I say this not because the majority seem to be supporting change, but because it is evident that the more that is seen of the rabid Sarah Palin, the more voters turn away from her.
Not only that, newspapers that came out for Bush in 200 and 2004 are peeling away from the Republicans and intellectual conservatives such as George Will and Christopher Buckley are voicing their horror.
If current trends continue, there will be a great deal of GOP washing of dirty linen done after November 4 and one of the main conclusions will probably be that never again will a little known person with extreme, rigid views ever be considered for selection on a national ticket.
The danger could be that the noise over the Palin saga could drown out the analysis of of the whole Bush/Cheney debacle.
When one considers what they and their very small group has done to the world, one can only be grateful to hear that Obama has recruited no less than 300 policy advisers from across the political spectrum. The fact that the man evidently believes in a broad tent approach to decision making is reason enough to support him in these times of trouble.
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I guess McCain has yet another trick up his sleeve. That's his problem - tricks, not substance. If he didn't have this list of sleazy ploys behind him, he might be believed.
The only thing that could conceivably get him elected would be another terrorist attack. Vain hope, Johnny. I can picture the Middle Eastern heads of state chewing their nails and waiting for election results.
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As for Fred Barnes in the Daily Standard piece, this is EXACTLY the sort of language that was used against Tony Blair and his party in 1997. As we remarked on the previous post, the British electorate had made up their minds that it was time for change and took no notice of right-wing hysteria.
Tony Blair, for all his faults, went on to lead the nation from the centre - and the nation thrived until George Bush came along and muddied the waters.
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More on my last post.
If Bush were really demonic, he would stir up trouble with Iran - and maybe have to bomb it to protect our great democracy?
Let's not go there.
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Personally I think Sen John McCain continues to skate on very thin ice on judgement.
Firstly, when Mr Ayers took these actions in the sixties Barack Obama was a princely eight years old, was he not?
Secondly, there was a massive anti-war movement in the USA during the Vietnam war (if the web had been in existence then the this would probably have caused the Government v serious problems). Ayers was not, therefore, either a lone voice or a man fuelled by religious hatred?
His aim? To draw attention to what many viewed as i) unacceptable attrition of US forces........ 550,000 deployed under Gen Westmoreland and c.50k KIA, ii) the draft and iii) the strongly held view of illegal actions of the US Government in a far off land?
I may be ill informed on the next comment but, on intent, wasn't the motive to raise visibility via physical attacks on the fabric of sociey i.e. high profile buildings such as the Pentagon as opposed to going out to kill Americans, per se? No one killed apart from one of the group in a home goal situation? Yes, in law, illegal actions and found guilty; punished and did time for these.
Here x40 years later Mr Ayers appears to have embedded himself into academia where he has accrued an apparently very good reputation and whose personal conduct has been very much on the straight and narrow for decades?
It could be argued that Ayers was actually more of a latter day hero than otherwise? The convenient fixing of a terrorist tag and then grafting the package onto Barack Obama beggars belief.
To be frank, and without wishing to get off topic, the actions of US Government officials in certain overseas campaigns, both overt and covert, could quite understandably and rightfully be viewed as terrorism with a capital T through the eyes of many innocent human beings who have lost incalulable *everythings* in the relentless pursuit of the US national interest.
In other words, and I am not frightened to say it here, there has been a crop of leaders with far more blood on their hands than Mr Ayers. Personally, I am delighted to look at a case history of someone who seems to have to have come through and made a very successful go of life after such a rocky early phase.
I judge him for what he is now, not then....... and so should Gov Palin and Senator McCain.
Bill
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# 9
Marbles - he can't afford it. All the money's gone !
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The more this campaign goes on, the more it becomes apparant that it would be exactly the same if Bush was running again- and this is by all means a good thing. The Americans are beginning to realise more and more how similar McCain is to Bush and responding. I don't think the election is over, because you never know what can happen but Obama is portraying much more Presidential feel than McCain ever has or ever will. I only hope nothing untoward happens that could potentially swing things round.
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Oh oh bill, as much as i agree with you, but calling someone who bombed the Pentagon a type of hero is gonna bring out the crazies in record numbers.
BTW you can be very impressionable when you were 8, I still believe to this day 20 years later, that the Knight Rider car could drive it's self.
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#11
Not if the bail out money mysteriously disapaera between here and the banks.
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11, eightypercent.
That's one advantage to being poor. We can't go to war. I said the same thing on another thread which makes me wonder how many people are having the same thought.
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14
I'm just surprised Bush didn't suggest that Haliburton handle the funds distribution and reconstruction of the banking industry.
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#11 eightypercent
He might. Or he might enlist McCain to make good on the boast that He know hot to capture Osama.
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Everyone seems to be in a lighter mood. On that note I will say goodnight.
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# 14 ~ everyone - AAArgh !
BTW - glad to see the moderators are back on top form.
I put yesterday's system-crash down to Marcus Arsicus and his multiple blogs clogging up the works.
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The real danger of the fraud issue is not that it may effect how people vote but that it serves to undermine the legitimacy of the electin itself. If there is fraud then it should be exposed and rooted out but if false accusations are made then the result of the election will be unfairly called into question. This will leave many feeling that the election has been stolen. To spread such rumours knowing them to be false is an attack on democracy itself.
You're all doing very well !!
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#14,
i honestly wouldn't be surprised if the $700bn bailout became a $250bn "bailout"...
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and I have just read that Fred Barnes article and he's whining about having a Democratic President, Senate and HOR. I have very little sympathy as in the UK we have pretty much the same thing EVERY TIME. And we never have this bitterness between parties and supporters of parties.
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13. everyoneiscrazy
Fine, point taken. I certainly do not condone any such civil actions and noted that punishment was meted out. Maybe change mine from hero to Robin Hood.
.......... funny timing - literally just listened to a BBC World piece covering Task Force Barker, My Lai, 16th March 1968......
*everythings* and more.........
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Wise advice, as ever, from Young Mr. G. # 20.
It is significant that Drudge has not bothered to follow up on McCain's latest economic "plan" but continues to fill his page with Acorn stories.
So at least we know where all this is coming from.
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Magikirin,
the last link on Justin's story doesn't seem to be working but I thought this little chestnut would rile you somewhat:
"voter registration organizations like ACORN are required to turn in all the forms they receive, even the suspicious ones. Furthermore, as Brad Friedman pointed out in the Guardian, "[I]f [ACORN] can't authenticate the registration, or it's incomplete or questionable in other ways, they flag that form as problematic...In almost every case where you've heard about fraud by Acorn, it's because Acorn itself notified officials about the fraud that's been perpetrated on them by rogue canvassers."
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Reap what you sow.
I've had several emails from a friend of mine in the States who usually doesn't vote. She's politically moderate, but would consider herself leaning towards the Republicans if shewere to vote at all if at all. She didn't support Bush, but couldn't bring herself to vote for Gore.
She was initially pleased (though sceptical) of Sarah Palin's arrival on the scene. After all, a woman VP is a good thing, and this person, though a bit to the right, appears to be happily married, is a good mother, and has held a number of responsible jobs. She's feisty, personable, and undeniably telegenic.
The past few weeks have changed her mind. Even though she still believes that Obama's a risk, and that McCain is possibly a safer pair of hands, she tells me that the palpable smears from the McCain camp - most particularly from Sarah Palin - have changed her vote. She'll definitely be voting for Obama, though with crossed fingers in the hope that he's not just a good voice in a suit.
I take two things from this:
1 The Republicans' campaign, so successful in prior times in terms of driving the undecided voter their way, has misfired. Bringing up Ayers, ACORN etc has been tried and has failed. If McCain trots this out again in the debate he'll be hammered on it by Obama....which is why Obama ensured that it's going to be raised. It makes McCain look like an old prizefighter who's tried every shot, every low blow that he can, whilst his opponent decks, feints, and trots away to the other side of the ring, watching him run himself into the ground.
2 There's a lot of people putting a lot of faith in Obama. If he doesn't deliver, the next black candidate is going to have to struggle even harder to get the white vote. Wrong, perhaps, but that's how I see it.
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Your link to "why it doesn't matter" has a <br> inside the quotes that's breaking the link. Please fix it! That's a good article.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/10/error_rates.php
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I do like the references to the UK election in 1997 in this blog. Many thought Blair was memorising but he rarely said what he's policies actually were. The Tories tried the scare tactics with Saatchi's 'Blair's demon eyes' advertisement campaign. The Tories knew that they had run thier course. The public and press had changed their mind, and weren't going to change it back in a hurry.
The Labour party never took victory as given so stayed very disciplined and focused. This was a response to the defeat in 1992 where Labour were expected to win in the polls, but still lost. By believing that defeat for Labour was real in 1997 they focused on massive turnout of supporters to get people to vote. The result was a huge majority in Parliament and the Tories themselves admitted that Labour will be in power for quite some time. Let's hope things are similar in the 2008 US Election!
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'Mr Obama is a terrorist and a muslim and would nationalise the banks of this great country...'
I agree that if McCain goes for the Ayers point he is walking straight into a massive bear trap as Obama will respond in a more of less casual way that will make McCain lose his composure and with in any chance of winning. - 'Mr McCain wants to talk about issues of the Vietnam war where he fought. I was eight at the time...'
My advice - whatever Obama says agree with but and a springle of americano.
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The link to "pyjamasmedia" on "voter fraud" is a link to an ultra right wing blog that I've been following for several weeks. This is no place for BBC lovers to be sent to for anything like credible information. The New York Times just did a piece on Acorn. Google it. You will find that this voter registration outfit has been found to have done NOTHING wrong.
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Question for dceilar after reading # 32.
Which was the worse thing that the Saatchis did to us ? The demon eyes ad (and thanks for linking to it, it's very relevant to the sort of scare story that Fred Barnes wrote) or leading the gullible to believe that the Damien Hirst shark was art ?
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Justin "proves" the ACORN registration fraud doesn't matter with a link to a pro-Obama blogger. Oh well, case closed then. Here's a fisking of Yglesias's tendentious points.
The BBC's reluctance to report the ACORN scandal follows the pattern of previous stories embarrassing to the Democrats during this election cycle – ignore in the hope it will go away and, when it doesn't, dismiss as insignificant using Democrat talking points.
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#35
You know, I thought the shark-as-art thing was great. But it was only great once....the shock of the new, and all that.
Goodness only knows how many Hirst 'masterpieces' there are floating in formaldehyde. Far too many, at any rate. It seems like a production line rather than any artistic endeavour. Hats off to Hirst for making himself very rich, but nul points for originality.
Then again, I'm a philistine.
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#36
Have a look at the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/us/politics/15poll.html?hp
Seems that polls show that (a) people have heard about ACORN (b) they don't really care that much. Continuing to run with this story isn't helping McCain
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Duhbuh,
Since Magik isn't awake yet, you'll have to do...
As stated in the last link:
"It's not voter fraud unless someone shows up at the voting booth on election day and tries to pass himself off as 'Tony Romo.'" And who would try to do that?" wrote Rep. Jesse Jackson (D-IL). As New York University's Brennan Center for Justice noted, "[T]here are no reports that we have discovered of votes actually cast in the names of [false] registrants." Under most state laws, in fact, voter registration organizations like ACORN are required to turn in all the forms they receive, even the suspicious ones. Furthermore, as Brad Friedman pointed out in the Guardian, "[I]f [ACORN] can't authenticate the registration, or it's incomplete or questionable in other ways, they flag that form as problematic...In almost every case where you've heard about fraud by Acorn, it's because Acorn itself notified officials about the fraud that's been perpetrated on them by rogue canvassers."
So that's a republican dismissing the worth of registering false voters. Sure there are some who will hand in lots of false applications but it certainly won't be easy for the same guy to show up 1000 times at the same station come voting day.
Just accept your loss and sulk for the next 8-1000 years!
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34. At 09:14am on 15 Oct 2008, smileytm303 wrote:
The link to "pyjamasmedia" on "voter fraud" is a link to an ultra right wing blog that I've been following for several weeks. This is no place for BBC lovers to be sent to for anything like credible information.
Quite right. It's terrible that "BBC lovers" should have their cosy left-liberal perspective sullied by alternative views.
("ultra right wing" - that made me laugh)
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Presumably if Justin thinks the vote "fraud issue" aka ACORN is itself fraudulent, he has the statistical evidence to show that only a tiny minority of ACORN derived registrations are fraudulent, and that ACORN's procedures are well designed to minimise fraudulent registrations.
Why doesn't he do us all a favour and publish his statistical evidence ?
Meanwhile what on Earth was all that fuss in 2000 in Florida all about ? Any voting problems were completely statistically insignificant, so we should all have accepted Ms Harris's certification of the Florida result and gone home happy ?
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I notice that we used to have a few (not that many) McCain supporters on this blog... have they left in anger or have they changed their minds?
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#35 eightypercent
Yes, Saatchi has a lot to answer for, and not just his taste in modern Art, but also his 'Labour Isn't Working' ad in the late seventies. To make things worse he married the tasty TV chefette Nigella Lawson! Unforgivable!
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I notice a few weeks ago you called the election for McCain and most of your comments here and on the telly seem to echo some of the more desperate Republican strategists I seen and heard recently - i.e why McCain might win.
While I would not suggest you have any bias (apart from the professional aspect because you thought McCain would win ) and I would acknowledge it is more than possible he might win, it would be interesting if you would give us a bit more analysis of Obama and his campaign.
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I don't remember the Republicans calling for people to vote Democrat in the 2006 Congressional elections to stop a right-wing dictatorship...thanksfully people did so anyway.
Is this the best they've got? No ideas, no clue, just abuse and lies. The idea that Obama is left-wing or that the Blue Dog Democrats are socialists is ridiculous.
The Republicans need to be taught a lesson: a catastrophic defeat will do them a lot of good as it will allow them to wave farewell to their wingnuts.
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It's easy to see why McCain was 5th from the bottom in his Naval Academy class. He's just a loud mouth with an ego. He admits it over and over in his autobiography and that's even before the latest Rolling Stone magazine interpretation of his life. I still don't know where he got this reputation as having `honour'. He seems to be a survivor via ego and connections who now thinks we all owe him ultimate power.
Obama's supposed detractions seem to stem only via occasional very sideways association. The `erratic' charge made on McCain, while obviously politically advantageous to the Obama campaign, can't be applied back to Obama. And that is what will matter because McCain's whole argument is that we are somehow supposed to feel `safe' with him (and his choice of Palin!!) . In fact, the opposite is true.
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39. At 09:28am on 15 Oct 2008, squideyes wrote:
So that's a republican dismissing the worth of registering false voters.
You think Jesse Jackson is Republican? That's hilarious. Rep. Jesse Jackson (D-IL) stands for Representative Jesse Jackson (Democrat-Illinois), not Republican Jesse Jackson.
Swamping electoral offices with thousands of false registration forms makes proper background procedures impossible in time for the election. This opens the door to voter fraud.
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sorry, my mistake... Didn't read the name properly.
Still, you're gonna lose.
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Sorry to bring this up again Duhbuh but how do you implement voter fraud on a large scale by registering false voters?
I can see how swamping offices with false forms restricts the accuracy of checks but how do suppose the false votes will materialise on the day? Especially if ACORN are flagging all or most of the said illicit forms?
Just curious is all...
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Last thing (I'll stop writing soon, promise)..
If Obama wins, at what margin would you accept that it was legitimate? Presuming you intend to use the Acorn fraud as an excuse for the GOP losing their grip...
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Dubdub
1 - it's good to know George Smiley has his eye on you.
2 - the Acorn business has given the Republicans an opportunity to say that there's voter fraud BEFORE THE EVENT. Didn't do that the last two times, did they ?
Are they girding their loins to challenge the result ?
And will they be able to stop squabbling amongst themselves for long enough to decide who they really want to win ?
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I don't know where this "left-wing dictatorship" notion comes from. It appears to be a phrase you've invented. It's certainly not used by Fred Barnes in his article, despite his right-wing attitudes (with his arguments against unions, proper healthcare and politically-balanced media). I can well understand that the Republicans might not like it if power shifted decisively to the Democrats, but that's hardly a dictatorship. Simply bizarre language.
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#52
Yes, I thought that was strange. If a slightly more left-leaning party is voted in, surely that's just democracy. Much as I loathe GWB and his acolytes, I couldn't in all seriousness call it a right-wing dictatorship.
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# 42 Haines
Don't tempt fate. They're a bit like Mr. Toad - always popping up when you least expect them and boasting about their big new idea. Poop! Poop!
I don't think it will be that easy to get rid if Marcus Arsenicus but nowadays we can get an idea of when he's heading our way by seeing him pop up on one of the other BBC blogs.
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I used to work for a charity fundraising company and we paid our staff by the hour but they were rewarded for getting high numbers of signups in the form of bonuses and time off etc.
There were always a few people turning in fake forms to achieve these bonuses and there always will be. This is what's happened at Acorn.
Reading this should ensure you understand what's really happened:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/10/facts_about_acorn_and_alleged.php#more
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From a REAL journalists website:
A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were four fraudulent ballots
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OH_
BTW - where did news about this alleged voter fraud come about - Rush Limbaugh?
He was the one who encouraged Texas Republicans to register as Dem in order to get Hillary on the ballot as the Dem nominee.
As usual, when they've got nothing, they've got nothing to lose.
Once again, Rush Limbaugh needs to remove the log from his own eye before going after the splinter in ours. Wow, and I, a self-proclaimed liberal, even paraphrased that from the bible.
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Whenever the 'left' is in power the right wing call it a dictatorship. In the UK I remember reading that the right wing Lord Hailsham denounced the Labour govt of 1974 to 1979 as an 'elective dictatorship' on the grounds that they had a small majority in Parliament!. When Thatcher came to power and she tried successfully to fill the neutral civil service with people she considered 'one of us' he was unsurprisingly silent on the issue of 'elected dictatorships'.
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A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were four fraudulent ballots
Stephen Majors, AP writer, Oct 13.
The-Daily-Record.com
BTW - where did news about this alleged voter fraud come about - Rush Limbaugh?
He was the one who encouraged Texas Republicans to register as Dem in order to get Hillary on the ballot as the Dem nominee. Please tell me why this isn't fraud. Because the Republicans are making the accusations?
As usual, when they've got nothing, they've got nothing to lose.
Once again, Rush Limbaugh needs to remove the log from his own eye before going after the splinter in ours. Wow, and I, a self-proclaimed liberal, even paraphrased that from the bible.
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#42
It's hard to hang around long when opposing comments are removed.
Three times I've posted, making a case against obama & three times my comments have been removed despite the fact that they do not break house rules.
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Fake names, multiple addresses and overwhelmed election offices - cases of voter fraud are emerging already in states which allow early voting, but election boards are admitting they don't have the resources to deal adequately with the problem. It's ACORN's questionable methods which have facilitated this unwelcome state of affairs.
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In the end it all comes down to Process. You reward folks for quantity over quality and you will have fakes. I would never condone the faking of one voter registration form, however the ACORN activities pale in comparison to the Republican scullduggery. (Diebold machines being tampered with)
Regardless, anyoen found guilty should be punished and ACORN execs should stake out the high ground and assert that fraud is not acceptable. To be different isn't to merely reflect the other's darkness, it is to shine your own light.
All voting activities must be transparent and accountable, for all political parties.
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Hi Justin
Please can you help me? I read your blog and the links and can you or anyone else explain this?
Can these very angry Republicans really believe that Obama is:
A terrorist? A Marxist? The antichrist? Dangerous? UnAmerican?
Why can they not accept that some people just disagree with them? Is it because they believe that their views are God's views and so the only correct ones?
I find this hard and the anger frightening frankly! Have they no concept that even very religious Europeans would find their views very odd?
Thanks for any help.
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The RNC has chosen to give lots of money to shared ads with McCain, instead of giving money to embattled Senators. The result is that they face losing to a filibuster-proof Democratic senate.
It seems like they've gambled everything on going for the presidency and are set to pay the price.
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While wholly irrelevant to her potential as a government leader, referring to S. Palin as a "good mother" (above) is shortsighted. A reading of her recent birth indicates someone more interested in her own professional advancementment than her children's well-being: stating she was going to give the speech in Texas after she broke water and had early labor pains (rather than seeing a physician to assess the stage of possible labor and well-being of the child to be born), flying back to Alaska (risking birthing on the plane), and being "back at work" in three days (rather than being with the child) are not indications she is focused on motherhood. Separately, when did she discuss birth control with her sexually-active teenage daughter, or perhaps the "good mother" was too busy to notice or talk. Procreating does not make one a self-proclaimed "hockey mom", but poor judgement in personal matters can reflect into one's judgement in professional life. Hockey moms, and others, should listen, look, and run the other way.
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Left-wing dictatorship? McCain should use the attack Churchill used in the 1945 general election that electing Labour would see the establishment of a British Gestapo.
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Either McCain actually has some hard evidence
that Obama is a crypto-something, or this campaign
is increasingly resembling a bull fight.
The picadors are done, and the bull is mad as heck.
McCain would be better off saying, "If you vote
for my opponent, you are giving Pelosi, Boxer,
and Reid a blank check."
If that happened, and he was able to send
Palin back to the tundra, then I could vote for
him.
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ref #25
well both links were working.
I've never heard of the second group, lets get a legitimate source.
But the fact is that Acorn is involved in massive fraud.
And no I not going to provide a link because Marbles and Jackforge will cry racism again.
Google it if you want.
Forget the popular vote if Ohio becomes the key it puts controversary in the whole election.
The argument of voter disenfranchisement does not wash in urban areas. It is extremly easy to register to vote. If someone needs ACORN or other groups to go through such as an easy process maybe they are not committed to vote.
I've voted in every election even when I know that the opponent will win easily. I regard as a civic responsibility.
The best compromise is make any ACORN registration provisonal ballots
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The one who is flailing is the BBC's so-called "North America" editor with a late-night/early morning post that rambles on about McCain while ignoring the real news of the moment in North America:
CANADA JUST HAD AN ELECTION!
No insights? No comments on an incumbent government gaining votes in the midst of a stock market crash and global financial crisis? No... just idle chatter about McCain flailing.
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Where were the outrage and expressions of concern when George W. Bush governed with a solid Republican majority in Congress during his first six years in Office?
I don't know if Obama and a real Democratic majority will be able to solve the problems created - to a large extent - by the borrow and spend policies of the Bush Administration and the Republican ideology and policies that have dominated our politics and influenced every facet of life in America in recent decades, but they certainly can do no worse than them.
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#64
JrmyJrmy, you're entirely correct, it's irrelevant in the performance of her duties. That said, part of Palin's appeal to my (female) friend was that she came across as a normal, working mother. That resonates with many women, who quite rightly think that they're under-represented in government.
Had McCain chosen a more reasonable female running mate, then my friend would have voted for him. "One of us" at the top table is a powerful draw......however, it appears that many now view Palin as the wrong "one of us" who's just an embarrassment.
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kirin/duhbuh,
still no response as to how fake voter registration can actually make any real difference to the results other than clogging up the system.
please give us a real argument as to how the democrats will steal the election with fraudulent votes, after all, that is what you are purporting is it not?
step by step please as your argument holds no weight whatsover without it.
if you don't answer we can only presume that you can't.
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#67 Magickirin:
Some translation for kirin speak:
"But the fact is..."
=
My rampant speculation is...
"lets get a legitimate source..."
=
lets find someone who agrees with me, or is me under a different name.
"The best compromise..."
=
The only way McCain can win
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# 65 Cainsy - good point
And it was that remark, disowned by his astonished party, to which Churchill's 1945 defeat was largely attributed. It only went to bolster his then reputation as a warmonger at a time when people were tired of war.
The electorate as a whole are fair-minded people and do not like extreme views or extreme language.
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#67 MagicKirin
"But the fact is that Acorn is involved in massive fraud"
I don't know much about that"massive" fraud, I heard that there was some fraudulent voting going on. By the way, Didn't Bush win the 2000 election by fraud, or was I dreaming?
#72 AsaScot
Might need a updated dictionary soon these days.
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Justin,
re Acorn, it's unlikely that anyone purporting to bear a fraudulent name is going to show up at the polls and actually vote, though that doesn't vindicate it, though it does make sense to make voter registration much easier and more automatic and let registration organizers toss out obviously faked forms.
The Supreme Court and the free trade agreements can do with reform like everything else, a government-run health system like Canada's, a "cap and trade" proposal for curbing carbon emission, increased tax on capital gains, dividends, top earners' income and raising the cap on payroll tax - all long overdue.
McCain's economic program includes the plan to buy up bad mortgages. Repeat, this would itself cause damage to the free market. It would tilt the playing field. Not only would taxpayers end up compensating the mortgage lenders who helped get us into this mess in the first place, those very lenders would stand to receive a windfall in the face value of those mortgages, leaving mortgage borrowers to repay taxpayers at lowered market rates. Effectively, a windfall paid to the lenders by the taxpayers.
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Magik,
Any sign of evidence to support this assertion of "fact"?I thought not. We have rather more evidence (quite a lot, in fact) of the fact that you are a bigot.
Your every post provides more.
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#74 Paul939:
"Might need a updated dictionary soon these days"
Yeah but by the time I finished a complete version Obama would be on his second term...
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Hey folks - a post on its way from Ed Iglehart, the best blogger of them all and MIA for a couple of weeks.
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Make-believe Maverick
WAAAAAAAA!;-)
ed
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ref #74
No asa there was no proof of election fraud in 2000,just accusations from the Moonbat left.
Even Gore finally admitted Bush won .
And no I don't post links but go to www.foxnews.com
or any of the other major U.S news sources.
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ref #71
For you:
The last two elections have come to a single state electorial deciding who wins.
Forget the popular vote.
2000 Florida- Hanging chads
If all or a majority of the disputed ballots had gone Gore's way he would have won.
2004 Ohio - Very close victory for Bush if a small percentage had gone other way, Kerry win. Kerry apologists insist that the Democrat districts were intentionally sabatoged in regard to the machines.
2008 Ohio and Nevada are two crucil states where ACORN has registered in Ohio some one 73 times and in Nevada tried to register Tony Romo www.foxnews.com
Is it not better to make ACORN registrations provisional? If Obama win outright no controversary, U.S moves foward.
Small margin win Republicans will claim voter fraud.
So for those who want a legitimate election you should be upset that ACORN is involved in fraud. And we should all be upset they get $1 of our tax money
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I am half inclined to believe the ludicrous McCain/Palin ticket is a bluff paving the way for the worst thing imaginable - Jeb Bush 2012!
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Did anyone see Recount??? There are ways the Republicans can still win regardless of the popular vote.
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#80 Magickirin:
"...there was no proof of election fraud in 2000,just accusations from the Moonbat left..."
You mean they went around doing things like; posting their weird conspiracy theories on blogs as if they were proven fact, without providing any evidence to substantiate their claims?
Hmm Moonbatkirin, has a nice ring to it...
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"81.
"So for those who want a legitimate election you should be upset that ACORN is involved in fraud. And we should all be upset they get $1 of our tax money"
You have assumed ACORN is involved in fraud.
AS yet there has been no ruling
You should be upset at such prejudicial judgements.
But it fits with your general habit.
"ref #74
No asa there was no proof of election fraud in 2000,just accusations from the Moonbat left.
Even Gore finally admitted Bush won"
Because the stacked supreme court awarded him the election in a travesty of democracy.
This was openly admitted.
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kirin,
one person registered 73 times.
=
employee working for ACORN gets credit and paid more or whatever...
despite being registered so often the person can only vote once.
there's no voter fraud there so what basis would the republicans use as an argument.
"gee, that there guy has been in line 73 times and we lost Ohio by 72 votes"
hmm
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Magic,
Calling Fox News a major news channel (and on a BBC website at that) is rather like comparing my mangy old cat to the king of the jungle.
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Left wing America? I guess it is all relative, however, from the point of view you get from this little island off Europe's mainland, the idea that Obama is some kind of socialist is bizarre.
It is also amusing and ironic that it is Bush and the Treasury that are in the process of semi-nationalizing banks with preference shares, and brought Fannie and Frddie back under the Govt umbrella too.
But back to the main point. How can Obama be a socialist? Here are a few ideas:
- because he doesn't like to see American people with little or no healthcare provision (although not sure that makes him a socialist, perhaps it just shows he has a heart.)
Must be something else.....what is there
?...hmmmm....can't think of anything else.
What has Barak ever said that marks him out as a socialist? Nothing that I can see.
Being for abortion, being anti-surge tactics in Iraq doesn't make you a believer in the State owning the wealth of the land.
And again, this is the irony, the only real issue that makes you a socialist, i.e. supporting large scale State intervention in the daily affairs of business....is guess what....the bank bail out policy of the White House and supported fully by McCain. While the infamous Sarbanes-Oxley Act, that brought in tougher Govt regulation of the financial sector after 2001, was I believe also passed into law by the Republicans.
Strange days, we live in when those that say that can't support 'Big' goverment actually are reponsible for makig it bigger and more invasive, and then label a man that has made no special statements on making Govt powers any greater as someone that will create a 'left wing dictatorship'.
It won't be Obama that makes the US Government bigger or absord more US tax dollars, the Republican White House has already done that by passing that Rescue Bill. In fact, from this perspective Obama could be seen as the best hope for greater freedom in America....
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For an opinion from a moderate Republican
as to what an Obama presidency would look like,
please consider this link.
Four years from now, we could be facing the
mirror image of today's situation: a failed Democratic
administration and Congress flailing about,
and trying to figure out where they went wrong.
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So, Ed iglehart's back, that's good to see. And MagicKirin, I think you already know that Fox news is blatantly pro-republican. And Bush won the 2000 election in the supreme court, not anywhere else.
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Mr. Webb-
You cannot seriously still be supporting McCain-Palin? I think that its completely unfair and ignorant to say that "liberals" are the cause and effect of everything bad. The article which you site, "Worst Case Scenario" is so appallingly right-wing ignorant that it just shows that like a crazy person not accepting the truth you and other "conservatives" are lashing out and not listening or are refusing to get out of your own world.
For another thing many people who are "liberal" also oppose unions because they are easily corrupt-able, cause work to move inefficiently, create an unnecessary pay drain to financially support these organizations, create unhealthy frat-like worker communities, etc. I should also note that unions are usually formed by people who would otherwise vote Republican on social issues.
Unions are the least of an economies issues anyways. For one thing we need an overhaul of our bureaucratic systems. We have antiquated rules and regulations that just the other day was finally equated to some of the problems with our economic systems. 19th century rules in a 21st century environment doesn't make sense and costs money. Our system could greatly benefit from updating our system to use more efficient online forms, the creation of non-SSN based accounts (to help protect individuals security through modularity), computer based record repositories, simple decision making status changes, etc. I think Obama only mentioned it once for doing that as part of his health care plan.
Our economy has to start accounting for things more realistically. We need to recognize that our planet is made up of finite things which is what most economists only recognize on a business resource level. This also means recognizing the value of materials being much higher and precious which will hurt our economy in the short term- no doubt. This also includes how we value the damage done to the environment. For instance, superfund sites which can cost a company tens of millions of dollars are not listed correctly in a company's accounting books. Drill here, drill now is so ridiculous that it makes my head spin... Just the fact that it will take us 10 years to get any real benefit from offshore drilling instead of investing in what will one day be mostly free energy. Oil rigs are so freakin dangerous to the environment that if you don't know that then you are ignorant to every geo-scientist in the world. Forget the environmentalists the experts disagree!
I could go on but this is too much of a rant that will probably go unnoticed... one can hope though...
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For a Govt./country that likes to "spread the word of democracy" to others, it has a very myopic view in its own back garden.
Throwing stones in glass houses comes to mind....
ACORN or micky mouse or not, what a complete mess. If any "communist" or "dictatorship" govt ran its affairs this way, it would lampooned by the US Govt and calls for UN sanctions or worse, aggressive intervention. Because of the democray is important for freedom, old chesnut!!!!
I don't think the powers that be in the US would know what democracy is if it hit them square in the face...What's that about power and corruption..???
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Justin,
Barack Obama's political leanings are more to the centre than to the left. People who suggest that he is an extreme leftist clearly haven't been paying attention for the last 12 months and more; they couldn't be any further from the truth; yet another myth rebutted.
On the subject of McCain, he is in serious trouble. Quite frankly, the only thing that this man can cling on to in this election is SMEAR and that is all that is left in his armoury. Not once has this man focused on the plight of the middle class in America or on any of the pertinent issues that really matter to Americans right now, and alas, it will be his undoing.
When you take into account the erratic way that his campaign has been run and the fact that the theme (did he ever have one?) of his campaign, appears to have fluctuated every 24 hours, it's no wonder he's so far behind in the polls.
Conversely, Obama's campaign (like his campaign in the primaries), has been far more cohesive and it has never wavered or deviated from its maxim: Change.
The bottom line is the only way that McCain can win this election is through vote rigging and I hope we don't see the voting travesty that we had in 2000 when Bush was "awarded" the presidency after numerous recounts.
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Surely McCain's problem in these desperate times is that he has spent to much time displaying his maverick, outsider, credentials (including by making that wild, weird and dangerous Alaskan woman his running mate) that he can't now retreat to play up his great strength - experience.
If ever a man was well positioned in an election year to capitalise on having seen more trench warfare politics in difficult economic times than most, that man is John McCain. Instead a wet-behind-the-ears Obama looks set to look a cooler and more statesmanlike proposition in these difficult days.
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#89, guns
That's certainly a plausible scenario, and one which many are scared of. Obama and his team must be banking on the fact that the undecideds believe that almost nothing could be worse than a continuation of Bush policies.
It really isn't a good option, and I'd be wary of voting for Obama. Given the alternative, however, there doesn't appear to be too much of an option.
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The assumptions and questions that remain at this late stage in our presidential campaign can be summarized as follows in my opinion:
1. The overwhelming majority of Republicans, who happen to be very disciplined, will vote for McCain. The only question involves the fiscal conservatives who are disgusted with Bush's fiscal and economic policies and are not too impressed with McCain's. They may sit this one out.
2. The Democratic hardcore will vote for Obama, the question is how many of the so-called Reagan Democrats will defect and vote for McCain.
3. Independents, who tend to be more pragmatic than registered Republicans and Democrats are leaning for Obama, but not in large numbers.
4. The key, in my opinion, is the extent of racial prejudice in America and voter turnout. Some experts believe race may account for approximately 5% of the vote. If that is true, and a relatively large number of Reagan Democrats vote for McCain, Obama will need a double digit lead to win.
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# 89 Guns
You may be a moderate Republican but you are also a selective Republican who does not admit that David Brooks has recently been struggling with his conservative soul.
In his previous article, dated 9 October, Brooks wrote :
"The Republicans have alienated whole professions ... lawyers ... doctors ... technical executives ... investment bankers ... it took talent for the Republican party to lose the banking community"
He continues :
"And so politically the GOP is squeezed at both ends. The party is losing the working classes by sins of omission ... it has lost the educated class by sins of commission - by telling it to go away"
David Brooks may be trying to make amends for what he wrote last week by creating a hypothetical view of what-might-be in four years time. But he is the same man who only last week fingered his own Republican party for creating the mess that we are all in today - not four years hence.
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Stocks are falling again today, so McCain's hope of closing the book on the economy seem to be scuppered.
Great interview with two highly intelligent Alaskan women about Sarah Palin
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/alaskans-get-it.html
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Lots of stuff to mention this morning.
1. "CBS/NYT poll shows Obama edging to a 14% lead." And the poll I watch says Obama up 5 for the fifth straight day. Take your polls with a grain of salt.
2. Saw a fascinating US PBS background piece on Obama and McCain. I can see better why I like McCain and why I don't want him to be president. He's a good soldier, a good junior officer, actually, and a good man. If you want to pick someone with the best chance of winning the Iraq war, he's your boy. But the last thing we need, IMO, is a gambler who'll sink us deeper into wars we can't afford to fight and should never have started. Obama has a history of being a conciliator and a cool head. He angered left wing friends when he seemingly favored the right wingers when elected president of the Harvard Law Review.
3. As an Obama supporter, I'm glad every time McCain attacks him for his friends, associates, ministers, etc. It makes McCain look small and petty, and, worse, that he doesn't care about the economic pain many Americans feel in this crisis. I know this goes over just great with the right, but it doesn't seem to be washing for the voters McCain needs to win. It's utter absurdity, to me. Yes, Obama has a minister who said exactly what most other African American activists said during the sixties. I'm shocked. Shocked, I say. He's also brushed soldiers with other people who said more or less what many said in the sixties. Shouldn't we be investigating what his barber thinks about foreign policy, rather than staying on the topic of America in crisis?
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The good thing about blogs is that if people talk a load of boll***s then people can quickly post evidence showing that it is boll***s. If people write a blog full of boll***s then it is clearly given an identity. The interconnected age and ability to reply tends to dispel rumours and associate an identity with those spreading them. The more people participating, the greater the effort required to game and manipulate the system to bias it towards a certain point of view, hopefully sifting and elevating more reasoned debate and opinions.
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red #87 and 90
Fox News is the highest rate cable news channell in the U.S that makes it a major news source. You can call it Pro Republican if you want.
By the way Alan Colmes, Juan Williams Geraldo Rivera are on the liberal end of the politcal spectrum they just happen to be rational liberals like say Dominick on this blog.
but neither of you address the point of making ACORN registrations provisional.
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McCain wasn't 'goaded' into bringing up Ayers at the debate... McCain was just rambling and he stuck his foot in it again.
The "liberal" label is ridiculous - what do they mean, "free" ... or maybe .."generous"? Why do people let this button work - I don't think the US people want to be so easily manipulated with stupid "button" words anymore - they've had enough. Same with "dictatorship" and "left-wing". It's Palin who has been found to abuse the power of her office (and she wants to expand the powers of the vice president-yikes) - ergo she is the most 'dictator-ish' of the 4 candidates.
As to ACORN - ridiculous - there is no motive or benefit to them in false registrations. None to Obama either. They are a membership association of community groups who advocate for the poor...whose numbers will soon swell.
Fixing the 'economy' is going to take more than cashing up the banks. The majority of the US people have been increasingly poor, lulled by 'easy credit', while the country's resouces have been bled by corporate greed with the help of "noble" politicians touting a "free market" that is based on fantasy and favoritism (think Haliburton). The drop to reality level cannot and should not be prevented - the US IS POOR may as well face it and get on. McCain is a product and scion of these past policies he will not be competent to see or implement major change. Obama has the potential to be a great innovator and consensus builder - I hope he comes through.
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magickrin, you call fox news a credible news source? Ha.
ANy news media who admits to being pro-republican/ pro-democrat- or pro anything cannot be credible but instead biased and will only print news that exaggerates their view and downplay the view of the other sids of the story.
thats not news my friend, thats nothing better than gossip or propoganda.
fox news has never called themselves credible or unbiased, in fact on the creation of fox news, the founder admitted that he needed a right wing media source to counter the left (which we are seeing now is anything that doesnt agree with the hard right wing views of some republicans....like Bush/Cheney).
this is the news source that is unapologetically championing every talking point of the republican party, even when they are false, and sometimes offensive, some go as far as calling obama's wife a 'baby mamma' and lets not forget the 'terrorist fist bump' statement lol.
Taking their word on anything is really just drinking the kool-aid.
But ignorance is bliss, so I understand the need for many to listen to only what they agree with.
ps. it is a known fact that the supreme court handed Bush the 2000 election, and chose not to count absentee ballots that could have gave Gore a win in Florida.
as for other strategic things done in order to discourage voters....like random police checks in certain areas to frustrate potential voters, or low distribution of voting machines so their will be long lines at polling stations, distribution of pamplets to give them incorrect instructions on how to vote on election day.
its an old trick, and generally works on the poor and least informed.
democracy at its finest.
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ref #91
I don't think most opposition is to Unions to Union leaders and their taticts of intimidation and the protections and entitlements they are given.
In regard to the drilling depending on where some of the drilling occurs; some studies say 18 months.
However we should have had drilling started 20 years ago.
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Obama's ahead in early voting
Early voting results
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For those Obama-supporters (such as the person who thought Jesse Jackson was a Republican) the following guide to ACORN's modus operandi comes from the comments at Jim Hoft's guide linked above :
Some answers on how and why ACORN does what it does:
First, false registrations serve several purposes. On the smallest scale, they provide opportunities to acquire one or more registration cards to be used for illegal votes. You can have them sent to a community center, a homeless shelter, or someplace else where the cards can be picked up and used. And remember, you can also vote without your card, so long as you present yourself as somebody on the rolls and have some other (fake) form of I.D., so you can register people you know aren’t going to vote (ie. dead people) or vote for those dead people you know are registered. At this level of fraud, of course, requiring photo I.D. would make everything harder. Guess who opposes requiring picture I.D. for voter registration and voting?
You can also make up people, get them on the rolls, and then send in absentee ballots. You don’t need a body to do this, or a person to show up at the polls, so this is a major source of fraudulent voting.
You can also register people too young to vote and have them vote, along with felons and illegal aliens. The key to all of these things is to keep the laws about identification, both for registration and for casting votes, as lax as possible.
Voter registration drives also spread around money — donated by wealthy non-profits, or subsidized by taxpayers, and disseminated around to people (unsurprisingly, often welfare recipients and others with lots of time on their hands, while you have to work for a living) who will happily show up to “protest” various causes for a few bucks or bigger kickbacks, or register non-existent voters so the organization can go back to their donors (or the feds) and show that they’ve “met their goals.”
So another important purpose served is as an income stream for activism infrastructure, a way to pay the people you need for heads at a demonstration or a press conference, or to disrupt City Hall (If you’ve ever been involved in city or state politics, you’ve probably noticed that the same usual suspects show up to protest wildly disparate causes. At the Capitol where I worked, the annual “Poor People’s Day” was a good day to get your purse stolen).
Growing activism infrastructure doesn’t always translate directly into fraudulent votes cast (though it’s still fraud to file false registrations). But when you get enough money to stage large-scale efforts, then pay lots of people to get registrations, then swamp registration offices at the last possible moment with real and fake ballots, then start screaming about people being denied the right to vote, abetted by a complacent media that starts imagining itself back in “the day” — you’ve disrupted the system and laid the groundwork to whinge on endlessly about disenfranchisement, a complaint that many well-meaning Americans take at face value.
And then the loop is complete: it’s “stop the presses: voters are being disenfranchised!” time. Elected officials grandstand and get tax dollars to pay for registration drives. The money gets divvied out by elected officials to organizations like ACORN. And that money and infrastructure get used to lobby against any laws that would “make it harder to vote” by requiring things like registration in person, photo I.D., and other things required in all other industrialized countries (you know, the ones that are gleefully pointing at us right now and j’accusing us of preventing poor minorities from getting to the polls).
How does an Obama rise out of this? Easy. First you become the guy who gives out the grants (check). Then you make sure the block captains who support your election to lower-office are the ones who get in on the next grant gravy-train (check). Then you get into office and get more grants to give out to your guys on the ground (check), who re-elect you, sending your further and further up the electoral ladder. Check. Check. Check. (I am not suggesting that Republicans don’t have their own closed loops of corruption, but they don’t do this, and they don’t accuse the rest of us of being racists who suppress votes).
The one thing that must NEVER happen is “solving the problem” of poverty, or “disenfranchisement, or any other social ill, because then the gravy train dries up. The argument that “ACORN helps poor people all year long” is risible, unless by “help” you mean getting the most corruptible people from public housing onto public boards in order to open up new avenues of kickbacks and expand political power.
So it is all done at the price of keeping the poor actually poor. And that’s the cherry on top.
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80% & Paul, Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to be missed. Been Hanging out with an Eskimo...
Peace to allG&R, An interesting article. Personally, I'm up for a bit of Keynesianism under the circumstances, though I don't fancy bailing out any car companies without a real equity stake big enough to be coercive in serious re-design of some of the children and grandchildren of the infernal James Watt. I reckon those in need of watching include Wilbur & Orville's and Alex Bell's and a good few more...
And the Deification of Growth has to end.
ed
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96. At 3:08pm on 15 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
1. "The overwhelming majority of Republicans, who happen to be very disciplined, will vote for McCain."
Is "very disciplined" a euphemism for "unquestioning" or just an appropriate reference to S&M?
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106. At 3:32pm on 15 Oct 2008, duhbuh
Your examples also sound a lot like Washington lobbyists.
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I'm waiting to be entirely entertained tonight. McCain seems bent on what he wants to say - but what if the moderator doesn't ask any questions that would warrant him bringing up Ayers in his answer? Well undoubtedly, McC will pull a Palin and just refuse to talk about the issues. Palin herself will just make sure he's fired...
It will work well for Obama to just talk about the issues and leave McCain looking like a desperate character with nothing to say.
Funny, a lot of republicans I know really don't like McCain. However, they're nervous to vote Democrat because they've never done so before. We'll have to wait and see. I'll laugh all night if my home state of Utah goes to Obama. Now that would be something!
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I really do have a good chuckle every time I see or hear people on this side of the Atlantic take a stance on either of the 2 American presidential candidates.
The Republican candidate (I can't even be bothered to write his name 'cause it doesn't really matter what the current puppet is called) will keep you in Iraq until 2050 or until the oil runs out and the other guy (I can't be bothered....etc.) wants to pull you out of Iraq and deploy the military machine in Pakistan.
Anybody get the impression that the real winner in November is going to be the arms industry or am I just being cynical?
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# 106 ~ dubba
Once again a right-wing apologist does himself no favours. That isn't an authorised or unbiased instruction for the use of Acorn registration.
It is written for the purpose of pouring slime on the whole Acorn concept and - I see- Obama in particular.
If you were to provide us with a straightforward, authorised mission statement I, for one, would read it. Otherwise I shall go on thinking that the poorer, more marginalised members of American society have been disenfranchised until now - and that has benefitted the Republican party.
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BillTyrone (#10), yes there was a "massive anti-war movement" during the Vietnam war. I was there. I would not characterize Ayers as a "latter day hero" as you suggest. His "Weatherman" faction was a tiny splinter group which got no respect from the mainstream antiwar groups. Ayers (and Dohrn) were insignificant then and are irrelevant now.
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Post 107 - welcome back Ed.
"Been Hanging out with an Eskimo..."
I hope he/she wan't an Icelandic bank manager with designs on your hard earned readies.....!!!
Were you looking for bloggbale gossip in Alaska?
You're all doing very well !!
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paul939 (#74), it is simplistic to say that the 2000 presidential election was won by fraud. It's a complicated subject and an entire book has been written on it:
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/sunstein/
which I recommend to anyone interested in the details.
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Post 10: , BillTyrone wrote:
Personally I think Sen John McCain continues to skate on very thin ice on judgement.
""Firstly, when Mr Ayers took these actions in the sixties Barack Obama was a princely eight years old, was he not? ""
It is totally irrelevant how old Obama was when the domestic terrorist Mr Ayers was conducting his campaign against US Soliders, Judges and Policemen, it’s the fact Ayers is unrepentant and the fact Obama steers money towards Mr Ayers education program to brainwash more youngsters into his way of thinking. The feeble excuse I was only eight years old is almost as pathetic as Obama’s “I remember my grandfather fought in WW2” which is his the sum of his excuse to try and qualify himself for Commander in Chief. He was not even born During WW2 but he thinks what his grandfather did somehow qualifies him as C in C.
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103. At 3:26pm on 15 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:
magickrin, you call fox news a credible news source? Ha.
Compared to all the other channels which are pure left propoganda, its refreshing to have Fox which actually gives more BALANCED news than CNN, MSNB ABC
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#97, 80%, I'm fully aware of Brooks' other
musings, and agree with him on a lot of stuff,
including the statement he made that Palin
was "a cancer on the Republican party."
There are a lot of us moderate Republicans
who have basically been kicked out of the
party, and view it as having been taken over
by extremists.
The problem that Brooks brings up is that
the Democrats are subject to the very same
self-destructive tendencies that destroyed
the Republicans and which are evident in
the current election.
Let's hope we don't swing from one extreme
to the other. Our Congress is not exactly
full of superluminaries.
Can Obama control his own party if he gets
elected? Brooks is an astute observer of the
Washington scene, and doesn't think so.
And, Ed, welcome back. No doubt you've
been off on some noble quest...
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"The timing is as interesting as the visit itself,'' said Chris Weafer, chief strategist at UralSib Financial Corp. in Moscow.
"Gazprom's entire senior management goes into Sarah Palin's backyard during a contentious election,'' Weafer said. "There's a message there.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHHOYkFeCDyk
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Unions are an interesting topic. On the negative side, many if not most are corrupt to some degree, and some, at least, have ties to organized crime. Furthermore, by keeping wages for workers high, they have the effect of encouraging the relocation of jobs overseas.
On the other hand, the last thirty years, in which union jobs have become much rarer, has also been the only long era in which wages for average (50th percentile) Americans haven't risen.
Unions had the effect of bringing more money into the hands of working people. From the Reagan era onward, stratification of wealth increased, and the decline of unions was an important part of this.
Free market fans welcomed this. But free markets, as we've seen in the banking crisis, are no panacea for society's ills. Prosperity has only ever been achieved by societies mixing in ameliorating factors to free markets, or, if you like, in having partly free markets. Put another way, societies need ways of forcing more income towards the bottom of the social pyramid to create greater prosperity than free markets do on their own. If this were not true, societies with freer markets, like those at the beginning of the industrial revolution, would be more prosperous than those today. They were not.
Unions were one way of forcing more money into the hands of working people, as unoptimal as they may be, and their weakening has been one of the causes of the stagnation of income for most Americans.
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ref #103
Please send me the link where Fox News claims to be Pro Republican.
Hannity is but he does an oppinion show.
For your information Fox News was formed in response to Ted Turner (the then owner of CNN) bias.
By your theory the NY Times is not a relliable source because it endorses Democrats
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Fox news as a source is funny as all have mentioned, but then not surprising that someone of such bias and with such a lack of reasoning or intelligence would think it informative on any subject other than giving an example of how the nazi's got to power.
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good move
:-)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/world_news_america/7670771.stm
"Miller said in June that Gazprom had approached Conoco and BP Plc on joining their Denali pipeline project, designed to deliver Alaskan gas to the continental U.S. At the same time Gazprom expressed interest in a rival pipeline project backed by Canada's TransCanada Corp."
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHHOYkFeCDyk
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peterdough (#75), it's better to require all forms to be turned in, because if there are instances of registration fraud, the election officials should know about it and prosecute it or otherwise correct it.
Another reason private organizations should not weed out fraudulent forms is that election authorities should be the judge of whether a registration is fraudulent. It may seem silly when there are obviously fraudulent registrations, but the alternative is to allow a private group to judge properly collected registrations, which creates a much larger opportunity for fraud.
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Here I'm considering voting for Obama and Justin, of all people give the fuel to McCain to show that the plans and the 'being my friend' commercials of Obamas are B.S., unvieling his far left agenda and his lies of knowing Ayers and being involved with ACORN.
So pretty much he is nothing he portrays himself to be,.. hmm how can I get behind a phoney.
More thinkin', more research,.....
just words, just speeches
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ref #106
As far as Jackson goes, like the Clintons he secreatly wants Obama to lose.
He resents that is his archahic blame the whites for everything is fading away.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Fox News is the highest rate cable news channell in the U.S that makes it a major news source. You can call it Pro Republican if you want.
Fox News is the highest rate cable news channell in the U.S
-----------------------
Is that the highest rated cable news.
and does that mean anything other than they have a lot of people watching them.
If more people watch the colbert report does that make it a news channel?
Is the fact the simpsons touch on politics occasionally and is watched by so many enough to gain it a position in the Top cable news agencies.
I go with the Union the European Union on that one.
They are not even a news outlet.
But then they do have a certain bias that I would not want to drag in to this post .
PS Cotton hills recovery plan does have a question you forgot to answer.
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#108 David_de_Jong
Oh do tell, If I am a Republican do I get to play S & M games then? I never knew that, I might change my liberal views after all.
Sorry couldn't resist that.
To be serious, as a European I am taking an interest in this Presidential race because I am terrified of another 4 years of Republican irresponsiblity and don't think the world economy can stand it either. Not to mention world peace. I am amused by the thought that Mr Obama is considered left wing we would call him right wing. It's the differences that make it all so interesting.
I think that, in Europe, most of us know that an Obama win is a double edged sword for us. While Bush and his cronies have caused massive damage to the world economy and the image of the US in the world (not forgetting your own economy of course) the democrats are 'protectionist by nature. I think the Obama win is the lesser of the two evils for us, it is after all, a lot easier to deal with protectionism when you have an economy to protect than when you are just trying to survive.
You will need a big healthy world market to revive your economy and I'm betting on the fact that you will need your trade with Europe. We are now the worlds largest economy according to the CIA fact book and I think we need each other.
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Oh no here we go again. Justin can you get some more moderators please, pretty please. This is a joke last night there was a 2 hour delay at times.
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101. At 3:23pm on 15 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote
"Fox News is the highest rate cable news channell in the U.S that makes it a major news source. You can call it Pro Republican if you want."
Is there anyone who do not call it extreme Republican?
It has had to sack staff for rascism.
"By the way Alan Colmes, Juan Williams Geraldo Rivera are on the liberal end of the politcal spectrum they just happen to be rational liberals like say Dominick on this blog."
But they are not news sources as such.
"but neither of you address the point of making ACORN registrations provisional."
That of course would racial and social discrimination.
Attempts by republicans to increase disenfranchisement of voters is an old policy.
The more people encouraged and registered to vote -the better -you do agree?
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wearenotamused (#111), you are being cynical.
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and all,
My Eskimo friend is actually from the group calling themselves Inupiaq or King Islanders, who come from one of the places from which Sarah Palin just might be able to see Russia (on a very clear day). He is no fan of Sarah. We were engaged with others in the making of four beautiful kayaks - a very gratifying way to spend a few wet days.
Completely off-topic, I know, but....
The kayaks are made to a 3000 year-old design, containing no metal fixings, but, of course, we used modern substitutes for elk sinew and walrus hides...
Getting ready for when the Gulf Stream quits and the local shoreline fills with icebergs...
;-)
ed
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126 gherkin
He resents that is his archahic blame the whites for everything is fading away.
--------------------------------------------------
what he couldn't be happy that his dream has been realised to a very small extent.
Sure he has the same dream.
BTW it was not the blacks that were lynching people and having a barbecue.
You have a hard time understanding how people suffer , well almost ,there are a few you think get treated too harshly of course.
You and
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#64 JrmyJrmy
I had exactly the same thoughts about the sex education and also the way she seems to be forcing the pace with the marriage of her pregnant daughter. I think that the evidence to date is that her career is a lot more important to her than the welfare of her family.
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Ref 108
"Is "very disciplined" a euphemism for "unquestioning" or just an appropriate reference to S&M?"
Whether we like to admit it or not Republicans are very disciplined or loyal to their party, to the point that they follow their leaders unquestionably regardless of how flawed their policies or actions may be. The rubber-stamp Congress of Bush's first six years is an example of that.
Their "discipline" contrasts with the lack of loyalty that is typical in the Democratic party where significant numbers vote for GOP candidates or simply don't vote in protest of actions ranging from fiscal to social to just about anything under the Sun. The Reagan Democrats are one of the most vivid examples of Democratic lack of discipline, and an important factor in the ability of GOP candidates to win.
It will be interesting to see who McCain tries to address tonight, the GOP loyalists thirsty for blood, or the Reagan Dems and Independents he needs to win in November. Too much negativism and focus in the past would doom his chances.
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As a probable Obama voter, I AM concerned about his links to questionable organizations on the left, and ACORN's tactics. I think the voter registration issue may mostly be sloppiness and greed. They paid registration collectors. They are required to turn in all registrations. ACORN themselves, pointed out questionable applications.
I am more worried about the dismantling of the America already underway by the Republicans. They have been waiting for the chance for almost a century to destroy the constitution and create a capital-based totalitarian system here. They are the equivalent of all the nice, decent Germans who stepped in to follow as soon as a Hitler appeared. It's no mistake that the racists moved en masse to the Republican party last century.
Not all Republicans, no. Their numbers are swelled by those who can be duped by a waving a rag doll like Palin in their faces.
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#125
Doug, you seem determined to find out that Obama's "a phoney". Might I ask why?
He's smug, certainly. Overly given to grand speeches. Far more middle-of-the-road than most give him credit for. But all of the supposed character flaws have been disproven to anyone who's prepared to weigh the evidence.
Clearly, if one wants to stick one's fingers in one's ears and shout "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" then it's hard to hear the truth, but if all the conservatives can come at Obama with is Ayers and Acorn, they're not going to convince anyone of anything, other than that they're clutching at straws.
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It has been suggested somewhere on this blog that the only thing that could save McCain is another terrorist attack on the USA. True, McCain is viewed by many as the candidate more willing to meet violence with violence. Is that what we want? This is the kind of knee-jerk reaction that got the US and its allies into the Iraq quagmire in the first place. Even if there is (God forbid) a terrorist action against the US during the run-up to the election, Obama is still the cool head needed to determine the most appropriate response. A self described "maverick" with a track record of reckless behavior, whose immediate reaction is to give way to a flow of testosterone will only aggravate the situation.
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Don't forget as well the voter fraud the Republicans, led by traitors like John Bolton, who stopped the vote in Florida and forced the Supreme court by 5-4 to take away the vote from the people for the first time since the civil rights bill.
And now they are circulating rumours to scare away voters and challenging/threatening voters at more liberal polling places.
Bush has been mostly concerned with punishing Federal prosecutors for not creating fraud charges against Democratic officials.
Republicans wrote the book on disenfranchisement. Their next move will be open contest of the vote results, regardless of the margin of victory. Beware. Violence will not be beyond them, if it will serve their purpose of destroying the American democratic system.
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We in America , have become a nation of sheep . The last eight years has seen the growth of an autocratic regime with a snide disregard for the US Constutuion.
If any fear a autocratic goverment , look no farther than the Patriot Act and our spying on domestic communications and military by the NSA to name just a few .
It's not that I fear a let wing autocratic administration , I fear a continuation of the autocratic regime that is in power today and would only increase its grasp of the populace under John McCain
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ref #120
I have a problem with the code word "working people" it seems to say that if you are not part of orginized labor you don't work.
I don't think that is your intent,
A couple of other points, Union only jobs restrain competition.
Union dues are involuntary
Unions also want to prohibit voter anomynist(Even McGovern has come out against that one)
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Fox News isnt news at all Gobbels would have been proud of the propaganda machine
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#125 DougTexan
Yes do the research. I am certain this will get you on the right track again. McCain is desperate now and is throwing anything he can think of into the ring to confuse and muddle the issues. Apart from reviewing the current issues I highly recommend a review of McCain's career and life history. A man's character is a reliable indicator of how he'll behave. McCain is unstable, don't let the sympathy factor of his experience as a POW influence your assessment of how he would behave as a commander-in-chief. McCain may be a neat guy to swop war stories with over a beer but his judgment is seriously flawed - his tapping Palin as a running mate alone should raise the red warning flags.
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#89 gunsandreligion
Thanks, I went to that link and found one bit that shocked me. I then did a bit of research and you in the US seem to spend something approaching twice as much per head on health care and yet you are only treating 78% of your population. Seems to me you could learn a few things from the much despised socialist European health care systems. Your health care looks very inefficient and expensive.
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Obama's exact political leanings do not matter, he is more left wing than John McCain (obviously) and he will have a much more left-wing Congress and Senate goading him on to legislate on all the Democrats' sacred totems. At least I think that's what Justin's trying to say McCain should be trying to say...
It's been suggested elsewhere that he should actually resist his own party's urgings and maybe would have preferred a Republican legislature.
Most Americans seem uncomfortable with the idea of one-party domination of government, often even when it's their own preferred party. However it is situations like that where the government is unimpeded where major reform can take place and government can be most effective. True, a lot of it will be reversed as soon as the Republicans wrest back one of the branches, but it gives the Democrats an opportunity to road-test their ideas, and some of them undoubtedly won't work out as badly as their opponents would hope. And with the freedom to legislate, many uncontroversial measures that may have earlier got lost in the partisan logjam for seemingly petty and obscure reasons can finally make it into law.
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Why would Justin ever suggest that Fred Barnes is worthy of our consideration? He's a man who advocates gay bashing as a way for Mr McCain to increase his appeal.
Referring us to The Daily Standard in order to substantiate a right wing opinion is no better than quoting The Daily Worker to validate left wing persuasions. As for the issue of "a left wing dictatorship" becoming "big big big..." - wrong, wrong, wrong. The common theme about the Republicans will be 'a pox on all their houses' and 'throw the *** out!"Not to mention "enough is enough."
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I've a question for Justin, or anyone else who might wish to answer. Why is Obama allowing both McCain and Palin to describe themselves repeatedly as mavericks without drawing attention to the negative connotations of the word?
McC-alin (or should that be Pain) want to distance themselves from their own party, from Bush, from Washington, and from regular politicians in general, for very good reasons. But do the American people really want to vote for a bunch of mavericks?
Obama could easily slip in some sly digs about no preconditions when negotiating with maverick states, or maverick bankers bearing responsibility for the economic situation, just to remind everyone that mavericks are not necessarily a good thing. It's practically a synonym for "erratic," "unpredictable," even "dangerous."
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129. T1m0thy
Considering the self inflicted position they're in, just being a Republican is a sado/masochistic exercise in itself.
As for your comments on protectionism, I have the same worries (I'm an ex pat Brit in South Africa). The reality is, though, that the developing world is being royally screwed already by EU and US subsidies which have the same effect as protective tariffs.
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105. At 3:29pm on 15 Oct 2008, Candace9839
There are no early voying "Results", that information is 'not' available. If you read the article you would be informed as it being a 'poll' taken in democrat polling places. What would you expect otherwise. Heck, I'm voting for Obama, but I ain't buying into "early voting" stats, meant to keep people thinking Obamas goning to win any way, so why vote
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Either side and everyone must vote, legally, fairly or we are no longer a democracy. This biased and one sided polls should be silenced. The worst will happen on election day, I remember here in Texas while waiting in line to vote, hearing Bush Sr. had won and ,... and I hadn't even voted yet.
I know many folks here left the lines and just went home. why vote if your guy already won or lost.
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#118 Guns and Religion
"Can Obama control his own party if he gets elected?" Good question. It will depend upon his real values, (not the one's he has to parrot and spout to pander to the chattering classes. )
He has an opportunity for greatness and he can choose to take it. Is he aligned to a set of values which transcend the daily pit of Washington DC, or will the force of attraction of this black hole suck him in?
I hope that he will take the opportunity for greatness and grasp it with both hands. However to do that will take great courage and an inner belief born of compassion for the population as a whole and a strength to create a structure which roots out the daily corruption and rewards integrity and honesty.
With the Republican pair the chances for sensible and pragmatic decision making based upon values we all hold dear is nil, with Obama and Biden maybe 10%. That's better than zero at least!
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The US is entering a new era in its short history. The specter of the rising dragon, the reconstituted EEC, and India, the most populous democracy in the world, are edging the US from its position as the most powerful nation on earth. The new administration must recognize this and devise strategies that will sustain America's position of global influence. A mind nurtured on cold war strategy is clearly out-of-touch. The US and the world need leaders willing to embrace new ways of doing things, with the ability to generate influence through understanding and cooperation with other nations. The US cannot afford to live in the past relying on outdated and archaic practices.
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"Don't elect a left-wing dictatorship"
Hmm... The key words here are "elect" and "dictatorship". Does anyone else find this statement to be inherently oxymoronic?
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ref #131
Attempts by republicans to increase disenfranchisement of voters is an old policy.
The more people encouraged and registered to vote -the better -you do agree?
The first point is ACORN's claim. There is no proof of it.
Yes everyone should be encouraged to vote: ONCE
It is not difficult to register on your own. And is it better to have legal votes than voter fraud.
No one is saying don't count the votes but ACORN wants people to vote more than once where they are not registered.
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#137 pbacot
"As a probable Obama voter....."
You say you are concerned by his questionable links to the left and ACORN, but then continue to dismantle these mindless accusations thrown into the ring by panicked McCain supporters. I hope you have convinced yourself. Both the Ayers and ACORN issues are red herrings and should be dismissed as such. The issues are what matter in this election and whether you want a clear thinking intelligent president sitting in the Oval Office or a reckless cold war warrior who despite what he says would be just a third term for Bush.
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Intrade oddes widen: Obama, 81.1; McCain, 18.8.
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#145, T1m0thy, our health care system is
a total wreck. The primary cause is inflation
in health care costs. (My suspicious nature
leads me to believe that a massive rip-off is
in progress.)
It's hard to imagine any solution, be it public
or private, without controlling these costs.
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StephenDerry (#148), you may well have a point that some of the connotations of "maverick" are liabilities. To argue the meaning of "maverick," however, is to make a semantic point instead of a substantive one. The substantive objection to "maverick" has been made (although I forget by whom): "Maverick is not a plan."
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#145 Timothy
Yes it's true. The cost of health care in the US is obscene. Much of it nothing to do with providing medical care. Malpractice insurance, litigation, unnecessary tests prescribed as CYA for prescribing physicians. As a product of the British NHS I recognize the benefits of a national umbrella insurance scheme and will support a similar system here, however as one of the fortunate with comprehensive medical insurance I can only praise the health care I have received in the US. Having said that the whole system is in need of serious overhaul so that every man, woman, and child has the right to the health care they need. As Obama says Health Care is a RIGHT.
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the ACORN issue is a republican hoax which gets wheeled out regularly, and i am amazed that Justin Webb has not investigated this properly. ACORN registers voters, if they fill in a suspect form, ACORN flag it, and it gets pulled up by the election authorities. then the Republicans run screaming to the press about ACORN vote rigging.
THERE HAVE BEEN NO PROSECUTIONS FOR THIS. what is far more worrying is the faulty electronic election system.
Michelle Shafer, official mouthpiece for both Sequoia Voting Systems and the election industry's PR outfit, Election Technology Council (ETC), has once again been misleading the public about Sequoia's bad voting equipment....
Justin? hello? thousands of votes? the same machines to be used?
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StephenDerry,
Balance of powers is based on separate branches of government, not political parties. The problem has been that partisan preoccupation has meant collusion between the Legislature and the Executive. The Republican agenda has meant the sabotage of the Judiciary by the Executive.
I am welcoming victory in all three branches by the Democratic party (hoping for attrition in the Supreme Court). I would be gladdened by the complete dissolution of the Republican party (seems to be happening) which would dilute the party system altogether.
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#149 David_de_Jong
Couldn't agree more about the subsidies it's disgusting and very short sighted. I think that it's a great shame that Peter Mandelson has left the EU commission he was very committed to reforming just that and if an unholy alliance of French intransigence, and US framing interests hadn't got in the way he may very well have succeeded. I live in France, love the place, but their agricultural lobby is way out of control it benefits the really large industrial producers and leaves the small marginal farmers who it should benefit out in the cold. Problem with it is that it's the same as the US the subsidy is sacred. Wonder if Obama can reform that.
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hugness (#162), you are amazed? Why? Mr. Webb is not an investigative journalist, and this blog is entertainment anyway, not journalism.
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159 gunsandreligion
Rather thought that when I looked at the statistics. I know about lies, damned lies, and statistics but the WHO is a fairly responsible body and those numbers seem to say that the drug companies are having a field day, the health insurance companies are raking it in and, dare I say, it the medical profession may be more than a little overpaid. Put it this way what does the average general practitioner in the US charge for a visit? In France it's €22. Say US$31.
That's from a socialist European of course who has the luck of living in France which is currently rated as having, I believe, one of the best health services in the world.
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hugness (#162), actually it is not a hoax, although certainly overblown. There have been prosecutions initiated at least against individual registration workers:
http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=4704
Registration fraud does not easily translate into voting fraud, however. My view is that most of these are merely cases of people trying to make some money without doing the work properly.
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155,
Delete 'oxy', the your response stands as sufficient in itself.
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Remarkable for McCain to be referring to a so-called "old, washed up terrorist" when the description could be much more pertinently applied to himself. Certainly, America's massive terrorist assault on Southeast Asia - for which McCain is complicit - during the 60s/70s is one of the most unpardonable acts of state terrorism in modern history. McCain's support for America's current illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq/Palestine and all the American/Israeli state terrorism that goes with it reaffirms the description. A description that applies to most of the senior foreign policy establishment and their advisors. Unfortunately, Obama Copacabana essentially supports most of the same policies as well, so any rhetorical "flailing" they do will be mainly on personal grounds, outside of the issues. Meanwhile, America will go right on physically flailing Iraqis and Palestinians and Afghanis even as the two sham "debaters" speak, and likely long afterwards, too.
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# 156 Magic
Hey, hey, hey - you don't give up do you ?
You write "Acorn wants people to vote more than once where they are not registered"
Where's your evidence for that and where's that mission statement that I asked for earlier today.
If Fox News are so good maybe they can give us a few facts - because so far, matey, you're not getting anywhere in convincing most folk on this site.
After John AAA, Andrea and Marcus, we are accustomed to the fact that the GOP believe in blind persistence without proving their points, but most of us really do not see why we should be complicit in supporting Fox News' wheeze to excuse the forthcoming GOP defeat
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#164 Me
What Freudian or what? For framing read farming.
Off for a bite to eat, don't go away, I have a couple questions for MagicK when I return.
#165
Gary it may be so, but you keep coming back for more.
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ref #140
How is John Bolton is a traitor? It can be argued that the U.S Supreme Court overuled the FL Democratic Supreme Court which blocked the end of the balloting.
Traitor is a very dangerous word to use, despite my many criticisms of Obama or Barney Frank I've not used that word.
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#116 bluepaddy13
It's clearly not irrelevant how old Obama was when Ayers perpetrated the acts of violence he is accused of. Obama was not involved in the militant anti-war activism that consumed Ayers. His only relationship with the man has been through their shared concern with education. Internal reviews by The New York Times, The Washington Post, Time magazine, The Chicago Sun-Times, The New Yorker and The New Republic "have said that their reporting does NOT support the idea that Obama and Ayers had a close relationship." What information are you privy to that contradicts these conclusions?
As far as your assertion that Obama uses his grandfather's service in WWII as a qualification for his presidency - you can't be serious! Point me to the source for this outrageous claim.
You have allied yourself to a man with a past peppered with ill considered and reckless behaviour. His selection of Palin alone is a legitimate reason to disqualify him as a presidential candidate.
McCain is a man of the past who is out of touch with the world we live in today. Casting your vote for him may sentence the US to further emasculation in the world arena and a continuing downward spiral of social and economic conditions at home.
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32 – dceilar
I agree one hundred % with what you have written, but would like to add a couple of things.
A large chunk of the UK media is owned by the News Corp – so obviously right wing, though not as right as Fox, so it is bound to bite you on the arse eventually Interestingly though, the Murdoch press, don't seem to be as hard on Brown,as they were on Major, the two comparable PM's.
Secondly, again like McCain, the economic turmoil has wrong footed the Tories, and they seem to be flip flopping. One minuet leaving the banks to flounder, the other backing the Nationalisation package. The Labour Party spin machine will seize on this.
Lastly Brown's standing. Brown's back at what he's best at; international and national banking. People, particularly abroad see him as a banker with a safe pair of hands, and the more people look to him, (their certainly not looking at Bush), the more his standing will improve, (could you really see Cameron and Osborne getting the same respect?).
If the economic fall has a soft landing, and beginnings of a recovery. It will be Brown that can claim the plaudits and may be the next general election.
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# Newbriton
You can write sensibly about the Ayers red herring until you're blue in the face but they'll still go on posting the same old crapology.
I hope that it does get brought up in the debate tonight. I hope that Obama buries it once and for all. I hope that he throws everything in McCain's past and Palin's past at them.
But I know he won't. That's not his style.
Which is why he's earned his colours as the chosen candidate of his party and its certainly why I personally want him to be elected president.
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80 – MagicKirin
And no I don't post links but go to www.foxnews.com
Well if it's on Fox it must be true then!
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Just read - a propos of nothing - Cheney has a heart!!!!!
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Faced with the choice between believing in conspiracy or cockup I always favour cockup without compelling evidence to the contrary, and I certainly favour cockup when it comes to ACORN. Three innocent, and I use the term loosely, explanations for dodgy registrations:
'It seemed funny at the time'
People filing forms with famous/strange names because they thought it would be such a wonderful joke.
'Why won't you people leave me alone?'
You've been canvassed for the tenth time in a week you decide to teach the latest one a lesson by getting him/her in trouble with his bosses, so you use your dead grandpa's name and your neighbours address,and imagine the canvaser sat in a jail cell...
'This is too much like hard work'
Some people take on the job of canvaser and just can't be bothered to go out and do the work so they xerox the same form 50 times and imagine no one will notice...
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eightypercent (#176) I think the Ayers thing has been buried. I read somewhere recently that the Republican flacks have been criticizing the "liberal" mainstream press for not reporting this. That's clearly not the case. Everybody has heard about it. Even my mother, in a small town in Oregon, who has no internet access, has heard about it. People have processed the information and the issue is now, to borrow financial jargon, "fully discounted." McCain may bring it up again, but it won't make any difference.
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#156 MagicKirin
I continue to be astonished at your reasoning power, or lack of it. You're a fearmonger, a dangerous voice spreading uninformed and unsubstantiated rumour as fact. Voter registration cards do not transfer to votes. As well as other pursuits ACORN is in the business of increasing voter registration. They are required to submit ALL registration cards they collect. They are not permitted to throw out any cards. Acquaint yourself with the real facts. ACORN have registered over 1.5 million voters. The instances of fraudulent registration cards are statistically irrelevant when compared to the numbers ACORN are registering. In any operation of this magnitude this is inevitable and does not indicate deliberate, planned, premeditated, strategy to influence the result of elections. If any criticism of ACORN holds water it may be that their business model incorporates payment for each signature collected; this clearly encourages those collecting signatures to inflate numbers. BUT this does NOT translate to more votes cast at the ballot box.
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fox news and many republican advocates are so Orwellian it's frightening.
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117. , bluepaddy13
103. At 3:26pm on 15 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:
magickrin, you call fox news a credible news source? Ha.
Compared to all the other channels which are pure left propoganda, its refreshing to have Fox which actually gives more BALANCED news than CNN, MSNB ABC.
Excuse me more balanced - Fox lost a law suite against the infringment of 'Fair and Balanced,' tradmark, the judge stating that it was 'wholly with out merrit. (the tradmark that is, ie it's not fair or blanced!)
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174. At 8:34pm on 15 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:
'Lastly Brown's standing. Brown's back at what he's best at; international and national banking. '
If you looked at the situation from this side of the pond you would know how ridiculous this statement is ...
His pedigree ( if that is what you wish to call it) has no economics in it whatsoever . He has followed that great charlatan Blair hoping( scheming) to become PM . He conducted the British economy to fall in line with what Blair wanted - keeping in his good books - so that when the time came he could assume the mantle of Leader. Blair - being far more astute knew when to leave the sinking ship , taking his money and directorships with him- Brown meanwhile carried on as usual , forgetting that there is a real world out there..
So all the edifices he built to satisfy Blair , which he hoped would bring him reflected glory have now crumbled - leaving the UK in desperate circumstances - international banker of renown - there is a typo in there ....
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Hello
I've just joined the 'community' and will check your blogs on a regular basis. I too must applaud your refreshing honesty in reporting the elections - gotta love the BBC!
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It's too late for McCain to do the reasonable thing and pick a decent running mate.
Palin appealed to the lowest common denominator in American politics: ignorance, the fear, racism.
She said Obama "doesn't see America the way you and I do."
There is no "you and I," Sarah. There's you and right-wing puppet McCain (remember when he was a real boy?), you and your secessionist husband, you telling the AIP to "keep up the good work", you stirring up crowds shouting "kill him" about Obama.
The there's the rest of the American electorate - the more we learn about the McCain/Palin ticket, the more distance we want to put between "you" and "I".
I am sorry, Dear John, you blew it. I really am sorry.
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ref 104
I would very much like to see where you got that 18mo. figure. It takes a long time to build rig and it also takes a while to find where to put it exactly. It also takes a much longer time to bring it mainland safely. This also depends on the weather, which because of global warming, is creating increasingly random and extreme weather patterns. On top of that it costs BILLIONS for these operations. Whereas wind, solar and geothermal are free and and cost much less. Another point I want to make is that oil was so cheap for a while because it cost 1 barrel of oil to produce 100. Now it costs like 1 to produce 20 and declining because it costs more energy to ship it farther, drill for it deeper, find it, etc. The value chain for oil drilling has been seriously disregarded. Even biofuels (which I'm also against) have an equivalent cost of 1 to 1.3 barrels of oil. That is to make biofuels it costs almost as much to produce them in energy. We'll need oil for later as a valuable commodity in the future for other chemical endeavors, during a time when burning oil will be a sharper metaphor than burning money. For now, however, we should use relatively low cost solutions for our energy needs. Even though wind, solar and geothermal all require high initial investments, they are still cheaper than drilling for oil and eventually return the investment. Oil could never do that.
Also- to say that Foxnews is a reliable source is a hoax. NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, ABC are not liberal institutions and are far from- they are usually even minded. All you have to do is actually read their columns and see they opinions from both. The truth is people are just are sick of extreme right-wingers that Foxnews glorifies and lies about. All you have to do is possess a long term memory or watch The Daily Show and realize that they are completely mad and just not willing to listen. Hell- the only reason Bill O'Reilly hasn't been sued for slander is because its hard to sue a pathological liar on the basis that he himself can't tell truth from delusion. All the other credible news sources at least have a non-screaming match when discussing opinions. I'm surprised no-one mentioned PBS, btw...
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#174 websitejunkie
Interesting that, my take exactly. I no longer live in the UK but it's been pretty obvious that Gordon is enjoying himself again and being the 'safe pair of hands' whereas Cameron is being what I always suspected he was 'just a boy'.
We shall see.
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This is for MagicKirin.
I hope you remember that yesterday I championed your right to express your opinions on this and any other blog?
I didn't do it out of the goodness of my heart. I did it to set the record straight.
I now would like you to set the record straight.
Four questions
1. On a previous post to a BBC blog you stated you were Jewish. Is that so?
2. You have also inferred in many posts to BBC blogs that you hate 'racists' and 'nazis'.
Please confirm.
3, You are a deeply committed supporter of the state of Israel. Please confirm.
4. You have expressed satisfaction at the way the government of Egypt has adhered to it's treaty obligations with Israel. Please confirm.
I would like you to either confirm or deny points 1 through four above. No equivocation please no if's or but's just straight answers. After all they are all taken from your recent postings and therefore it should not be a problem.
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Is anyone else finding it very ironic that when the McCain/Palin ticket go after Obama with negative ad's and speaches on their supporters and commentators orders, McCains (and Palins) negatives skyrocket?
WHY did McCain take advice from those people? Didn't he realise that being a maverick was the only thing giving him a realistic chance on Nov4th?
The Republicans are trying to run the 08 election whilst thinking that it is still 04. The same stategy (which was one state away (Ohio) from failing anyway) will not work for every election.
Not that the republicans want to believe it.
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# 184
Unusual re-evaluation of the Blair/Brown relationship. All evidence from insiders at the time points to Brown having given Blair a very hard time indeed.
Your argument breaks down when you claim that Brown has no economics in his pedigree. OK, his doctorate was history based, but Chancellor for ten years and preparing to be Chancellor since even before John Smith's death does give you a pointer.
His earlier study "Margaret Thatcher : The politics of Greed" might have had a wee bit to do with economics, don't you think ?
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#184 jabber_jabber
Uhmm the name fits.
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182. , bk9061 wrote:
fox news and many republican advocates are so Orwellian it's frightening.
A lot of the American Neo-Cons did start their lives as Trotskyists (mircosoft spellcheck doesn't understand the word Trotskyist - I wonder why? LoL!).
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Btw- just to get this out there...
Dick Cheney and Barack Obama are cousins... distant but still related...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21340764/
Does that mean Obama is not a Muslim? ;)
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#181 Newbriton
"Acquaint yourself with the real facts. ACORN have registered over 1.5 million voters."
1.5 million? In that case my somewhat facetious suggestions in #179 really could account for thousands of 'fraudulent' registrations!
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188 T1m0thy
Interesting that, my take exactly. I no longer live in the UK but it's been pretty obvious that Gordon is enjoying himself again and being the 'safe pair of hands' whereas Cameron is being what I always suspected he was 'just a boy'.
We shall see.
I was gonna call my self Guardian-reader, but I thought it would show my political leanings to much! LoL!
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#191 eightpercent
Thanks for setting the record straight. Your analysis is more in line with what I thought were the facts.
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189, Timothy.
Magic has told us ad nauseum that he is Jewish. He assumes falsely that having made that statement we will not criticize him for fear of being called antisemitic.
He also feels that being Jewish gives him the right to hate the Arabs, whom he considers to be subhuman. I have pointed out to him that he and Hitler would have gotten along just fine.
He will no doubt get back to me on this, but I will not answer him.
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196 websitejunkie
Nah never did like the sandals and yoghurt bit. The Independent was more my style especially when Andrew Marr was in charge
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191
I agree entirly. My views may be a little bit biased, due to my left wing leanings, (not as biased as a certain 'news,' channel, which will remain nameless, unless of course your name is Al Franklin, then you would be laughing all the way to the bank, each time they tried to sue or ridicule you!) but my glasses are not that rose tinted.
I hate what a lot of New Labour Policies – id cards, 42 days interment, etc, but Brown has got a sound economic head, despite what the right over here or across the pond say. As Brown famously said. 'We repaired the roof whilst the sun was shinning.'
What was Bush's great economic cure? Tax cuts for the rich.
A lot of political and economical analysts, including the IMF, place what's happening at the White Houses door.
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Oh dear have we a moderation problem again?
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#191. eightypercent
If Brown was giving Blair such a hard time - as a 'prudent chancellor ' would he have let him get bogged down in foreign adventuring with its enormous cost to the exchequer . Would he not have costed more thoroughly those 'projects' that have since proved to be millstones around the necks of the people . Would he not have taken advice and looked at what was happening ...
Just because he was chancellor doesn't mean to say he understood economics - we have had any number of ministers who have been unfitted for their posts if you use that criteria - health, home secretary, foreign etc. they are all novices but politicians...
His thoughts on Thatcher were really just a primer as far as he was concerned - seeing what he could get away with...
Thanks T1m0thy - every now and then I get this urge to put my point of view - just like the rest of you...
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200.
Nah never did like the sandals and yoghurt bit. The Independent was more my style especially when Andrew Marr was in charge
Don't mind the Indie, but I'm definatly a Gaurdian man. However when I want to
reminisce in my union family roots, I'll read The Morning Star. When I was at uni I went out with a Vegan Socialist Worker Party member. A strange combination I can tell you! So it was all Grapefruit and SW's at the breakfast tabel.
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John was flying high - but he was flailin’,
‘Cause in the big race he was trailin’!
If he did something rash,
He was certain to crash!
In the co-pilot’s seat sat S. Palin.
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#195 asascot
Well no, not quite actually (but you knew that anyway). The propensity of folks passing by their local Starbucks to deliberately lead the pollsters astray is probably not as great as your scientific based suggestions may suggest. Point is ACORN employees defrauding their employer does not translate to voter fraud or ACORN stealing an election. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe there is a single recorded instance of VOTE fraud connected to ACORN activity.
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203. T1m0thy wrote:
Oh dear have we a moderation problem again?
Yep!
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Regardless of what you all may think my background is solidly 'Labour' - but of the Labour party which looked to help the less fortunate - anyone who may have read my past - and infrequent posts - will know my parent's house in Birmingham was the local Labour Party HQ . What I decry is the NuLabour espousement of money for money's sake . No matter how they dress it up NuLabour is as far from the underprivileged as the Tories..
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#201 websitejunkie
Yet despite the continually mounting evidence against this incompetent and disreputable administration there are voters who want a third term!
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Do you think the more we maon about the moderation. The longer we have to wait as punishment!!!
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#206 jabber_jabber
Of course your privilege.
Mine to disagree
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189.
I have already asked him to clarify his views on several things and he refuses to answer. Like most republicans when asked a direct question they ignore it.
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re my 189 and allmymarbles #198
It's now been over 2 hours since I posted my reasonable request to MagicKirin and there has been no reply. allmymarbles you can tell me 'you told me so' tomorrow but I'm a charitable sort of person and will wait till tomorrow to draw a conclusion.
In the meanwhile I'm off to bed, have a good day those of you across the 'pond' and I hope the best man wins the debate. I look forward to seeing the result tomorrow.
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211
Oh I agree with you 100%. I am old labour through and through. Hell my Great great grandpairents were involved in it's creation, and would be turning in their graves.
Labour governments have never been that left wing, true compared to New Labour they were Communist! Trade Union legislation - started under a labour government, nuclear deterrent the list is endless.
But from a selfish stand point - a middle class mid thirties lad, I haven't done badly under the economic stwedship of Brown - isn't that neo - liberal economics is all about? Free market lite?
Ps I forgot to mention earlier that I was against the war (that's a long disscussion on liberal imperialism and resouce explotation, for another day), and trident replacement.
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to Timothy and Marbles
1. I am not going to play your answer game,
2. Marbles you are lying about me on every post
3. On the two latest threads Israel or Palestine have only been mentioned by you.
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#206 jabber-jabber
The Chancellor's job is to dole out money to other government departments and to forecast expenditures. Brown had a broad base of support within the Labour Party and because of his influence Blair prudently chose to keep him in this important office for ten years. I fail to understand your position that all the Chancellor should be concerned with is cost. It's part of his job to find the money to enable the government to function. It is not his position to force the PM to give up certain courses of action because it costs too much, particularly if that action is considered to be in the country's interest. Should Kingsley Wood and Sir John Anderson (CofEs during WWII) have prevented WC from waging war against Nazi Germany because it cost too much?
Despite your personal prejudice, ministers are usually selected because of their perceived suitability for the post. Mistakes are made of course. Brown is clearly in his element at the moment and is rightfully enjoying praise for taking the right steps in a timely fashion. Steps that are now, at last, being emulated by Paulson and Co.
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#213 websitejunkie
Maybe. How does one maon?
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Well this sucks I'm going to bed!
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One thing is for sure; whomever wins the election has to live with a Democratic-controlled congress. That will present its own challenges. McCain will have to negotiate; that's a given. I submit that Obama will have similar struggles. His views are significantly left of the left...almost Socialist. In order to move on policy making he will have to "persuade" not just the Republicans, but also those Democrats who tend to be more centrist. (I'm not talking about Pelosi;she's left of planet earth.)
On the up-side; the economy will recover eventually and whomever is in power will take the credit. So, we'll be singing the praises of the one who sits in the oval office even if he didn't actually do anything about it. Never fails.
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224, please explain exactly how Obama is, as you assert, "to the left of the left, almost Socialist"? And, how an all-democrat congress is inherently worse than an all-Republican one. Neither party has embraced fiscal conservatism nor cut spending in the last decade.
Obama seems far more centrist than John McCain, despite the glossy mailing that arrived telling me that McCain and Palin will govern from the center. Obama won the confidence of a majority of worldwide economists in a poll of hundreds in 'The Economist'... He met with a range of American economists months ago to review his tax plan.
Will the economy inevitably get better so someone can take credit? We may not yet be at the 'nowhere to go but up' stage.
Wall Street is just part of the economy. Employment is going down, now retail is hit, and Federal and trade deficits seem to be parts of the puzzle too. Another thread asked if this is the end of trickle-down. Will this be a rethinking of consumerism and the cheap-import and expensive oil trade deficit? Will we scale back consumption and save more, or adapt to long term investments to break our oil and debt addictions?
I think we need a dynamic president to lead us through a long recovery and changing global stage, sitting back to take credit won't be enough...
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208, Arthur.
Just what this blog needs - high class stuff.
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217, Timothy.
Magic has lied again on #220. He must have taked lessons from Rove. He should be a politician.
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this is blinding! McCain needs to work on those facial expression - oh and while you are at it sweetheart, learn how to answer the damn question - better yet answer it without a) slagging off Obama or Biden and b) with no reference to Joe the plumber!
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now i am confused - Joe the plumber has alot to answer for!
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wow - McCain wants to overturn Roe V Wade abortion rights judgement. as a woman who values the ability every woman and couple have today allowing us to choose whether to bring a child into a loving home that can make the childs life good v having a child that may not be wanted or cannot be cared for or be safe. how many kids need to be abused or not cared? as a brit, many of you will recall the old Ireland where women would go down back streets and having illegal and exceedingly dangerous abortions- how is that better?
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Post #224; SeattleSheila wrote: "I submit that Obama will have similar struggles. His views are significantly left of the left...almost Socialist."
(a) Define "Socialist"
(b) Explain how Obama's views are "significantly left of the left"
(c) Give six (6) examples from his policies, political affiliation and voting record
Thankyou.
PS. If Obama's views really were "significantly left of the left", he wouldn't be "almost Socialist"; he would be 100% Socialist, if not positively Communist.
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some of the "socialist" appearing as a growing (as predicted Justin) on the most trusted name in news:
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/lou-dobbs-and-co-revert-mccarthy-mod
G
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I have got to say quickly that as a citizen of the United States, how terrified I am at the thought of a McCain/ Palin administration. I like John McCain or used to. I would consider myself a liberal person. John McCain has always seemed to have morals. But lately, he has been falling into the republican election strategy trap and saying demeaning things against Barack Obama's character, which he promised he wouldn't do. And yet, Barack Obama's true character shines through...a man who lets those comments roll off his back (seemingly anyways) and gets down to the core issues Americans care about. I am tired of this rhetoric. I am not scared of John McCain being president, I am terrified at the thought of Sarah Palin having even a stones throw shot of being president.
She has been asking us "who is the real Barack Obama"? I would like to know who she is. It has been six weeks since we met her. She is governor of one of the least populated states in the union. And yet, I am sure everyone is aware an election here lasts well, forever. They never end! Barack has been under the spot light for about 2 years now. So, I think it's safe to say we know him a little better.
I am embarrassed and mortified by racist America. These “Americans” that have been showing up at republican rallies. It is an ugly side of America that should be gone by now. I don't want to live in racist America anymore. It is 2008 right? We are smarter than this. But, the republicans have once again decided to change the definition of the situation by stating that they are the only people in America who are “patriotic” and love this country. Vulnerable people are falling for fear mongering tactics, and that is dangerous. John McCain has a crap plan for health care and everything else. Now, he has to combat the racist crowds his V.P. elect is helping to come out of the wood work. John McCain cannot win. What is wrong with leaning towards a more socialist government, seriously? Maybe we could take care of some of our citizens for a change instead of bailing out millionaire bankers to the tune of 700 billion dollars. Thanks Bush, thanks for terrible economics. We owe 50% of our debt to the People's Republic of China, great...
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I call it a Democratic Party Absolutism. All those items mentioned in Fred Barnes article are items on the Democratic agenda. If they have a filibuster proof Congress (House and Senate) and Democrat President, then for two years they can pass all the anti-energy, anti-small-business laws etc...they want. And they will.
You might be rich enough to pay-off Democrats for favors and exclusions in the laws, most people are not. Barnes is right. An O presidency will be disastrous for the US, and we are already experiencing some of it.
FYI, people have been telling you that O is a socialist for several years. It so happens that Obama is from the extreme left, and would be the most socialist president we have ever had.
People have been telling you the Democratic Party is a socialist party for forty plus years.
Until this campaign, *socialist* was not even used publicly, as you know. It became necessary because.... Obama is a socialist. I didn't make it so.
Embrace your socialism, Socialists, and debate in the light of day. The only problem for you with that, of course, is your fellow Americans hate socialism when it is called socialism. You and your O'candidate would lose.
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ladycm? check out what the National Black Republican Association has to say about the Republican and Democratic Party histories and this election. You can google them.
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232Post #224; SeattleSheila wrote: "I submit that Obama will have similar struggles. His views are significantly left of the left...almost Socialist."
(a) Define "Socialist"
(b) Explain how Obama's views are "significantly left of the left"
(c) Give six (6) examples from his policies, political affiliation and voting record
Thankyou.
PS. If Obama's views really were "significantly left of the left", he wouldn't be "almost Socialist"; he would be 100% Socialist, if not positively Communist.
My response:
You are technically correct since socialism is like being pregnant, you either are or aren't. I might be able to point you in a direction. This is so much like believing in God. You have to discover the answers for yourself, and just someone telling you isn't enough.
Here is how I came to a rock solid conviction that Obama is a socialist. I looked up his voting record. He was a state senator before he was a senator in Congress. Also, the ACLU and ACU, and other watchdog type groups give Congress members ratings. You know the rating is on target when you look first at the ACU and find Obama rates 8ish on the Conservative scorecard, and then look at the ACLU and find out the inverse is true. He scores 92ish on the Liberal watchdog scorecard. Well, I don’t know about you, but that tells me he is a Socialist.
Most Congress members on the ACU are bunched up between sixty and eighty. Pelosi scores lower than Obama on the Conservative scorecard, btw. Last time I looked, her lifetime score was THREE. Biden is a little higher, not much—in the teens. McCain scores where most Americans claim they fall in the low 80 range, mid center-right. McCain really is center-right. My congress representative scores 98, and he is considered a true Conservative or a Rebel Republican. Bernie Sanders, who openly ran as a Socialist in Vermont, scores 6.34, almost identical to Obama’s score of 7.67 on the Conservative scorecard. (Vermont is constantly threatening to secede, and I think we should let them.)
It helps if you understand what socialism is when you look at records. You can find an online copy of Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto, for a crash course on the graduated income tax, twisted logic, misunderstanding private property and production, and the worst economic treatise ever written. Read from other sources for comparison. Re-read your US Constitution, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Booker T. Washington, and contemporaries, such as, Thomas Sowell. The language of Socialism/Communism and our country is striking. The Heritage Foundation and any source that explains the free market and Milton Friedman are good. Here's a fun one: PBS offers an entertaining documentary online called "Commanding Heights." It's a must see for anyone who wants to understand socialism vs. capitalism.
The easiest way to judge if someone is a socialist from their rhetoric alone is whether they offer government solutions for problems the free market can solve. Obama and the Democratic Party originated government dependent solutions in the USA. Their solution to everything is more government, higher taxes. The bail out is a Dem Dream come true. Had congress done nothing, the free market would have corrected the problem without burdening us. However, heads would have rolled. We didn't "bail out" and save the market because the market didn't need saving. We saved political careers.
Also, government solutions tend to have "unintended effects." Remember the boy who sticks his finger in the levee? As soon as he does, there's another leak in the wall, and he has to keep plugging the leaks until the levee breaks. That’s our US government in action when they stray into areas the US Constitution said they should not go. A non-politically charged example is the seat belt law, which I am for, except an unintended result has been reckless driving. People feel safer when belted up. Therefore, an unintended effect of a seat belt law is more collisions. Government simply lacks the god-like power to create a utopia where nothing bad ever happens.
Also, don't get confused about the "free trade" agreements. There is nothing free trade about them. They are better described as mercantilism, a precursor to socialism that has never worked and was the cause of colonialism and imperialism—it was not capitalism. Mercantilism always results in slavery and war--not capitalism. :)
In summary, Capitalism good; Socialism bad.
Don't vote for the Socialist.
And have a fun free-trade day in your neighborhood.
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correction:
A comparison of the language of Socialism/Communism and our country is striking.
The Democratic Party originated government dependent solutions in the USA.
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238
you just worked so hard to set up a socialist straw man and make a long and convulated argument that you overlooked a number of contradicting examples. Here are tow big ones: the Republican party preserving the union over state's rights to secede (Lincoln) and the now defunct progressive wing of the Republican part led by TR breaking up monopolies and creating the first food and drug regulations.
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In response to Post# 237 by jcputn5349...
I had asked:
(a) Define "Socialist"
(b) Explain how Obama's views are "significantly left of the left"
(c) Give six (6) examples from his policies, political affiliation and voting record
You did not define "Socialist"
You did not explain how Obama's views are "significantly left of the left"
You did not give (6) examples from his policies, political affiliation and voting record
So none of my questions were answered.
You noted that he scores highly on the the ACLU "liberal" checklist. This means that his politics are generally liberal, and he is a strong supporter of civil and human rights. It does not make him a socialist. A liberal is not the same as a socialist.
You rambled on about Karl Marx and the American Constitution (for no apparent reason) and fired off a handful of unsubstantiated accusations at the Democrats in general and Obama in particular.
If the bailout is a "Dem dream cone true", why did the Republicans suggest it in the first place, why did Bush work so hard to get it passed, and why did so many Republicans vote for it?
You tried to tie free trade into socialism (the two concepts are diametrically opposed) and finished with a jingoistic throw-away line.
You have claimed that Obama is a socialist. I challenged you to substantiate that claim. You failed.
End of story.
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