McCain out of Michigan
This is important - much more important than the national polls.
It is not the end for McCain, of course, but Michigan was a real hope at one stage.
The state has long been a Democratic stronghold, but with a different vice-presidential pick (Romney, perhaps, whose Dad was Governor), he could have won it.
Palin may be rallying the base, but those 17 Michigan electoral college votes are votes he does not have. Where does she win them?
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So much for Ms Palin's appeal to 'suffering middle America's blue-collar workers' then. I thought that was what she was chosen for?
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Michigan is a good swing state and I think other swing states are gravitating to Obama gradually. Of course, i wouldn't attribute every vote in michigan to the candidate elected... oh wait.. i mean..
In the meantime, I'm completely offended that Palin automatically assumes that my husband is a beer-drinking "six pack" couch potato, and automatically assumes that I'm a soccer mom. We don't drink. And we hate sports. *noises of exasperation*
AND STOP WINKING! SHE'S GOT TO STOP WINKING! Is she going to be winking at the Koreans during important meetings? yeep! And if the Saudis disagreed with her, well darn it... she'd darn them to death. And now she wants control of the Senate too? *shivers*
George Washington is rolling in his grave. We are not the America the founding fathers set up. In some ways, that's a good thing, but we've lost the purity of governmental purpose on behalf of the people.
If McCain gets in, do you think Australia would accept us as political refugees? Long live the Queen? [no seriously, I do admire the queen!]
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McCain may as well get out of Wisconsin too. And if he is hanging around Pennsylvania, that is a waste of time and money too.
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With respect Justin, this is old news as far as the web goes. It's been a topic in every on-line paper.
About the winking - perhaps she has a tic. But again, perhaps not.
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regular_josephina
Oh, that kind of six pack. I thought she meant the one you get going to the gym, but I did think that was a bit odd.
I wouldn't mention the Queen too loudly; there is quite a strong republican movement in Australia, though it's amazing how some presidents can dampen the enthusiasm for it sometimes.
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GRAVITAS!
After pulling out of MI and the performance of someone who lacks GRAVITAS...McCain just lost the election...it is now a matter of ensuring that he doent lose face...which he probably did when he chose someone with the convictions of W!
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For the electoral vote picture, Real Clear Politics gives Obama 260 and McCain 163, with 115 a toss-up.
When they allocate the toss-ups by which way they are leaning, Obama has 353, and McCain has 185.
What is interesting is that almost all of the leaning states are leaning towards Obama. None are moving in the opposite direction.
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I found it annoying that Palin did the following:
* kept winking (what is wrong with the woman)
* making what came across first as weird and then as condescending statements about respecting Biden for some decisions; respecting Biden's wife for being a teacher;
*her idiotic "shout-out" to the 3rd graders in her brother (coincidentally, the best teacher of the year/state/planet ???..according to her)
*her going for the sound-bites of "we're cutting taxes and they are not!" which included no enlightenment of the how, when, who, why and where questions?
* her response that McCain was going to implement/support all of the policies/changes on the energy crises ...when she listed one which was to "drill baby drill" - what were the other mythical "all" changes?
Everyone has failings and weaknesses but the glossed over display to portray a level of competence for the 2nd highest and quite possibly the most powerful position as "leader of the free world" is unacceptable. Do Americans want a folksy, winking, light on detail, high on gloss VP and possibly President ...didn't they just have a version of that for the last 8 years in Bush?????
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Out of..............
My belief is that the stature and salient experience eminating from Joe Bidens performance and delivery in this exchange, far outweighed the significance of the personal uplift Sarah Palin so badly needed. In fairness, she recovered some ground after a long week, but that is as good as it gets. Her standing, allegedly sagging moral in the GOP party play second fiddle to the marching polls that are rapidly enhancing colours.
Ms Palin, whatever view one takes on her qualities and future potential, is simply is not yet equipped, or ready, to assume the appointment of Vice President of the United States of America.
I also thought Senator Biden handled the meeting with diplomacy, tact and in the spirit of a gentleman. He could have gone after her on a personal level far more specifically and countered SP comments far more assertively - including white flags, Iraq, Iran and more (which the moderator should / could have done) but his overall pitch was spot on.
Serious situations required serious judgement and skills. My money remains firmly on the Obama / Biden team - they have the quality of statesmanship; the leadership and vision to re-focus a nation and lead it out of a political graveyard and the embarrassing failings of this x8 year GOP legacy.
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This race is not over. It will be much closer than anyone here is predicting. And I think Gov. Palin gave Sen. McCain's campaign a real boost this evening.
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As much as Palin exceeded expectations last night, there is no doubt Biden trumped her in terms of substance. It's so obvious that Biden is far stronger material for the Vice-Presidency and anyone who doesn't think so is crazy.
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Justin,
there you go aagin. This debate turned up unshaven.
I knew the 1988 VP debate, I watched the 1988 debate, I listened to the 1988 debate. Justin this was no 1988 debate.
Who care abot the media circus. I really don't think that this debate will change any one's mind. There are bigger issues at play than the odd one liner.
You're all doing very well !!
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The huffington article suggested that McCain is pulling out of Michigan but will re deply in Ohio and Florida. That would imply that he has given up on Michigan which was unlikely anyway and is concentrating on the states which could be the real deciders. perhaps not as bad for his campaign as intimated.
You're all doing very well !!
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Any updates on how congress will vote on the bail-out....?
A bunch of muppets have created a financial crisis....
can you tell me how to get, how get to Wall Street.
This meltdown has been brought to you by the letters D for Democrat and R for Republican and by the number 700 billion.
OK which characters are like the candidates?....for me McCain is Oscar - the grouch in the bin - while Obama is uncanilly like big bird...
You're all doing very well !!
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The "where does she win them" line is a good one Justin.
I've posted elsewhere with some thoughts on the non-debate. In the cold light of morning I wonder again - apart from the rabid republicans watching (and Fox etc did roll out a few who thought she'd won!) who would have been convinced? Reading a few prepared soundbites and slanted "voting facts" surely did not enable her to straddle the muddled lines between the parties' faithful?
Were any independents won over? The CNN Ohio Uncommitted reactions would suggest not. Joe Biden seemed to win that fairly easily and consistently. As a half educated man on the "Clapham Omnibus" I would not be won over by folksy rah rahs. The fact that she didn't crash and burn will up the polls in the Mid West and duelling banjo country but elsewhere, methinks not.
regards to all
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Palin's screechy self confidence was on clear display last night. Was anyone else just a little bit embarrassed to think that, with her messy hair and her winks, she could be a step behind the President of the USA.
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Shouting out from Anchorage, AK(a rather red city and state). I have lived here for about 13 years. When I first heard of this new female govenor, I was amazed that Alaska had elected a woman. And excited. I returned to Alaska after a few years away and now find her to be the Anti-Christ. If she had to spend 5 days in Sedona being tutored on the issues.... SHE IS NOT READY for ANY national post, let alone the Vice President. As far as her passing an energy bill that kicked back $1200 per citizen 1 year and older... she only signed her name on the bill. The State Legislature passed the actual bill and sent it to her desk. Palin and I disagree on 2 fundamental issues. Abortion and homosexuality. She is pro life and thinks homosexuality is a CHOICE. Excuse me?!? I am a lifelong Democrat but will be ashamed to call myself American if Obama and Biden are not the next adiminstration for our country.
WAKE UP! Get educated. Elect Barack Obama president. Otherwise, God help America.
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02. regular_josephina
Thanks - I too thought 6 pack referred to lots of sit ups.
Palin - the american dream realised.
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I have a feeling that this debate will actually assist the Reps in the house at the elction. A lot of Indies and uncommited who are doubtful will realise that the McCain/Palin ticket shouldn't be let anywhere near the White House but will vote for their Rep House candidate to even things out. The HoR Republicans toughness over the bill will reassure them that they should be rewarded for showing some spine. The irony, of course, is that the Rep congress are the mavericks for voting against their own administration whilst McCain went with it.
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The economy is tanking so badly that new car sales are the sort of thing people can and will put off. That meens hard times for Detroit, Michigan.
The worse the economy gets, the easier it is for the Obama/DNC to impale John Mccain on the terrible economic track record of the George Bush/ Cheney administration.
It may be more exciting for Justin to report on a President Obama, the only problem is that Obama is wrong on what is hurting the US economy.
The congress will be shifting strongly to the Democrats this november, no force can prevent that given the US economic woes, so that a President Obama will be able to run up an even larger deficit with his domestic spending.
I actually think that Mccain was the last hope of the US and the West, now it looks like the economic weakness caused by the hollowing out of US industry [sucked out to cheaper areas like China and India] will accelerate.
Its going to be a Chinese century with only parasitic laywers and bureacrats in a decaying US picking over over the corpse of a once great country.
Its actually US business itself that caused the slow decline of the US economy. What is the point of free trade and free markets if they are used by the business people in your own country to betray the ordinary working people in favor of another country?
What the hell is the point of that?
After Bush and Obama are finished with America, they might as well give out Mandarin dictonaries because the Chinese will own everything in the long run anyway.
I give up, whats the use.
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Interesting view emerging from some Republican sources - that Palin might have the potential to take a high-level job in 4/8 years time, but that by tying her so close to the image he wants to project of himself (maverick etc) McCain has ruined her chances for ever.
Personally, after witnessing last night's brassy performance, I don't think that dumping McCain and his campaign would give her a moment's trouble.
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Not sure this means that much - Michigan was blue last time. And McCain can still play offense in WI and PA (although neither are looking that good for him at the moment). What he won't do though is defend Iowa which makes me wonder what he was doing in Des Moines the other day getting his blood pressure up for no reason (check out the clip on youtube).
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Is anyone appalled at Palin's agreement with Cheney on the expanded power of the VP. I'm wondering if either have read the constitution. Here is the irony that no one has pointed out. Do you find it ironic the Conservative leaders talk of choosing judicial candidates for their ability to follow the letter of the law and not the "Spirit" of it. Now Cheney (and I guess Palin) feel that an unprecedented interpretation of the VP's power is appropriate. Does this concern anyone?
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.... and someone, during the five days in Sedona, should have warned her about those winks. These debates always end up as 10-second TV shots. Endlessly repeated on the news, the winks are going to make it appear that we have just seen a reality game show rather than a vice presidental debate.
The Hi Mom, Hi Dad moments can only add to that perception.
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as I have said , she should have been coached by Michelle Malkin
gotta run..... :o)
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...... and another thing, On several occasions she actually paronised Biden, a six-term Senator. To his credit, Joe Biden, swallowed hard and did not rise to the bait.
Did anyone else feel like me, that when Biden choked up he was reacting more to having to stand there for 90 minutes listening to her than because of his family tragedy.
It has been remarked upon elsewhere that she should not have made such a big deal out of meeting Biden for the first time.
Heck - even I've met Joe Biden and I'm not even likely to get the vice presidency of my own back yard.
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All this talk of Palin's screechy voice reminds me of one of the first things Thatcher did which was to take lessons in speaking with a low voice. When under pressure the voice goes up an octave or two. Mrs T learnt the art of keeping her voice low under pressure to give an impression of being in control. A good example of this, I think, was her performance in Parliament near the end of her career (her best I think), the pressure was on and was on good form whilst her voice kept low, relatively slow, and in control.
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Palin was not there to answer the moderators question on policies rather she was there to "speak to the American people". What an joke. We, the American people wanted to hear the candidates debate the issues - not hide under sound bites. It is now more than ever undeniable fact that she knows very little, if any, about the real issues that matters. We can not afford to put Palin in the white house.
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Palin just shores up the red states - North Dakota, Montana and of course Alaska. She's made them redder, but it seems a waste - you don't win any more electoral votes for winning states by big margins.
The biggest plus from Palin is that she has enthused the Republican volunteers - the people you need on the ground knocking on doors, without them you don't win elections. However they can't just relying on "getting out the base" as they did in 2004, there just isn't enough Republicans for them to do that this time around.
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Obama's choice of Biden shows reasoned judgement.
McCain's choice of Palin shows risk-taking judgement.
America has been on risk-taking mode in the last 8-years. Many are wishing, hoping and praying fervently for a return to reasoned judgement.
Biden adds introspection to team Obama, Palin adds hyper-spin to team McCain. Americans now have a choice between substance and gloss!
America prides itself in being leader of the free world, that free world would feel hugely embarassed if gloss trumps substance at the poll...
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Well if that's what America wants then that's what America gets.
Personal opinion I would be immensely embarrassed if Palin was put forward as the representation of my ideologies. I think my conclusion here, is that these so-called conservatives or right wingers, do not have their own minds, they are way to easy convince.
In light of this, the flaws of the democratic process are exposed. It is not as far away from some other forms of governance as we are led to believe.
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Mark Steyn after the debate on the Hugh Hewitt show: "I loved Sarah Palin's voice. I think people underestimate, experts underestimate, the appeal of someone who talks in the cadences of the American people." Of course, if you're one of those "experts" who doesn't like her, and was irritated that she didn't implode, then you might resort to petty insults about her voice sounding like it "cuts glass" or something.
And just to wind up the abuse-hurling, holier-than-thou "progressives" on here, this was Peggy Noonan's take on NBC: "She killed. It was her evening. She was the star. She had him at, 'nice to meet you. Hey, can I call you Joe?' It was very interesting to me, for Palin tonight for an hour and a half, I think America saw her for a really long time, and she became a star probably on a new level. Gwen Ifill was not there for Sarah Palin. Joe Biden was not there for Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin was there with a camera. It was classic go over the heads of the media and everybody else, talk straight to the American people. She hit every populist chord."
That should get you going...
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So what difference has this all made? Reps will be pleased as Palin did well (for her). Dems will be happy Biden didn't get caught out. No big deals. So Obama still has a healthy lead (and McCain is now having to re-focus his targets). The only thing that can affect the vote now and stop Obama winning I think is:-
1) Vote rigging in a couple of key states
2) Some apathy by Obama supporters as his lead appears to be healthy.
2 more dull debates full of soundbites that won't move any Blues Red or vice versa. Independents stay with Obama largely due to economic crisis and Palin.
Roll on Election night. Now where to watch it? Hopefully we are in for some excitement then.
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I thought that was the best debate I've seen so far.
I mean the debate between wsdmskr and NDPNDNTTHNKR on the previous thread, starting about #125 with the wonderful post from wsdmskr and then the equally wonderful NDPNDNTTHNKR #138 and so on.
kecsmar; David_Cunard and peterm99 also put in some more interesting stuff.
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Palin will fade as quickly as she did last time - she can't keep running on great public performances. This debate will be eclipsed by the bailout.
It seems to me McCain was always hampered by the 'fundamentals' (an unpopular Republican administration and disenchanted base) but his performance in that crucial week of the meltdown was a turning point. Palin was right about one thing, there is 'fear' in peoples' voices, doubtless in Michigan, and that is why the election is turning to the Dems
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don't hold your breath, there's still a lot of way to go
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McCain's nightmare is not limited to Michigan. Incredibly, even Virginia and Florida are starting to lean for Obama. If the trend continues this may turn out to be a landslide of historic proportions.
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You are quite right, there is over thirty days to go. I do feel, however, momentum is so important, and I wonder how McCain could regain it.
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I give McCain credit for even coming to Michigan and trying. Michigan has suffered larger economic troubles than the rest of the country and that is saying a lot. People here are angry and looking for someone to take their frustrations out on, we can't vote Bush out of office, so McCain is the next best thing.
But I wouldn't go so far as to say his pulling out here is a sign that he is losing the election. Michigan was going blue this year no matter who the Republican nominee was this election.
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Of, course, "fear" and fundamentalism go together.
Consider these vectors:
"Try this:
"...Perhaps fundamentalism and narcissism are each a response to a changing and threatening world.
Christopher Lasch saw the following factors as contributing to a change toward narcissism in America: (1) a dangerous environment (2) weakened familial and social ties (3) emphasis on consumption rather than production (4) media fostering of a cult of glamour and celebrity (5) disappearance of a sense of historical continuity and of posterity, concomitant with the disappearance of the extended family.
The psychiatrist Otto Kernberg said that narcissism was a continuum and that clinical cases are only more emphatic forms. In these, superegos control from fear rather than from guilt, with punitive and sadistic forms said to dominate (consider the prevalent Hollywood formula of sex, violence and sadism)..."
'Mind and Ideology' ISBN 9780920282113
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Saturday the 4th of October sees the anniversary of the launch of Sputnik 1 in 1957. It was an epochal event to which America reacted initially with shock - and subsequently in a measured way that ranged from dramatically improving science education in schools, all the way to putting a man on the Moon. Then there was Apollo's legacy, which included a sudden heightened global awareness of environmental issues in the light of photographs of our tiny, fragile home planet. Apollo's legacy also gave us an inspired generation of scientists and engineers and others whose skills would be so valuable to the American (and global) economy for decades to come.
With the election of Reagan, it all began to go rotten. Science and logic began to play second fiddle to the "Star Wars" fantasy and extremely disturbing religious delusions, such as 'The Rapture'. Normal service was resumed in many ways with Bush Senior and Clinton, but then in 2000 the weirdness returned. Weirdness with a capital W. Whereupon reason and "elitist" thinkers were deemed inferior to blind faith and a president who looked and sounded like he'd make a good beer buddy (if little else). The multi-faceted damage wrought by Reagan and W in particular is now plain for all to see, all that is apart from those with their heads deep in the sand.
And just when you might have thought that the Dubyaing Down Of America has gone almost as far as it possibly could, along comes Sarah Palin, a person who would like to see creationism taught in schools and has called the war in Iraq "a task from God".
S. Palin and Sputnik. The optimistic view is that a month from now America will react in a measured way and take one giant leap on the road to becoming, once again, a great country widely respected around the world. The negative view doesn't bear thinking about.
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Somewhere I heard someone extol the virtues of aa "team of mavericks". Isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Like "ecotourism", "clean coal", "sustainable development", "free markets", or the archetypical "Military intelligence"?
;-)
ed
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Poll results from Readers of the Wall Street Journal.
No surprises there! ;-)
ed
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Ed
"... "team of mavericks". Isn't that a bit oxymoronic?..."
not a bit,.... 100%..!!!
;)
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And, ever hopeful, the House and the sweetie shop Get a load of that pork!
Not all that Kosher! ;-)
ed
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Throughout the debate I kept wondering -- is Joe Biden really a Klingon?
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It's interesting that Michigan is run by the Dems yet the voters aren't blaming them at all.
But the Detroit auto industry is broken and will be untill they modernise, become efficent and break the unions.
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My understanding of the initial analyses of the vice presidential debates is that most of the so-called experts were unduly charitable to Sarah Palin.
Though she tried to put her best foot forward in the first 30 minutes, a dispassionate critique of the 90-minute debate shows that she was no match for Biden.In substance, facts and delivery, she simply lagged behind.
Fred
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Mrs Palin seems to have admirable qualities as a potential cheerleader at a local hockey game.
Surely her winks and betchas don't qualify her as a potential vice-president (or even stand-in president) of the USA.
The American people could not be that stupid, could they? Could they?
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Post 43, Ed
Interesting. Is there a comic edition of said august journal ...... how the heck did 150,000 readers manage to both:
1 Think she won it. Won what and how????
2 Think it was worth recording a vote to say so?
Regards to all
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45 Ed, again
The list includes this:
"Exempting children's wooden arrows from excise tax"
is that some American euphemism for something vital or life-saving? So the future of capitalism, indeed the whole western world might revolve around THIS?
Regards to all
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# 41 Arthur Putey deserves a medal (gold at least) for giving us so elegantly some real food for thought.
# 42 On Mavericks - I have always held that this is the worst possible description that a hopeful politican could give himself. OED definition of maverick (other than a lost calf) is an undisciplined adventurer. Not the sort of person you want on your side in a time of trouble.
- and as for polls - it is always fun to have a look at Drudgery who, true to form, is showing Palin as massive winner. He did the same for McCain. His authenticity takes a new tumble. La-di-dah.
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Biden was knowledgeable, well-spoken, sensitive and direct. Palin was folksy and memorized what she needed to in Arizona to gloss the surface with the exception of the commander in Afghanistan. When she said McClellan I thought Civil War. Tone was civil and moderator Ifill superb, keeping it moving.
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# 47 Magic
Not really so strange. Its the auto industry's market that has been destroyed, rather than their base. As George Bush and Co have more responsibility for the collapse of the market than the hometown Dems, they might well have a bit more explaining to do.
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Greetings from Illinois, USA. I enjoy reading your comments about our presidential election but I'm wondering about the Obama support. He is the U.S. Senator from Chicago and while I can not stomach a McCain/Palin ticket, I wonder if any of you have really looked at Obama's "experience." Our state is a laughingstock of in-party squabbling and juvenile behavior. About the only thing the Chicago Democrats can proudly point to is Barack Obama, a child of the machine that created this mess. Luckily he didn't stay in Illinois politics long enough to be completely tainted but Obama is very scary.
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Listen all you socialists out there. The party is over.
There
IS
NO
MORE
Socialism.
Even the communists gave up on it.
You had the Clinton/Blair triangulation (Socialism dressed up as Capitalism.)
for a while, which is where this mess started.
There is ONLY free market capitalism. So get used to it.
Time to grow up.
And never get in to debt you can't afford EVER AGAIN
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The race isn't over. But it does seem at this point that a perfect storm of bad news for the Republicans is going to be too much for McCain to overcome.
As if producing the worst president ever weren't enough for the Republicans, the sky has fallen in on the economy, largely due to to policies enacted by a Republican administration and congress.
McCain needs a blue state, and it's harder than ever to figure out where it's going to come from. I still think Pennsylvania is his best bet, but it's fading. Michigan and Minnesota are out, and Wisconsin was never in.
And yet: it's amazing how fast things can change, and there's still a month to go.
The same quality that makes me like McCain as a human being (a willingness to gamble), and which has kept this race closer than it should be, is what scares me about McCain as president. We need a cautious president, and Obama, to me at least, seems nothing if not cautious.
Though I'm an Obama supporter, I thought Biden came off as a bit of a fool and more than a bit of a jerk. "It's English, Joe. It's your native language. You ought to be able to know how to speak it," I found myself saying at one point.
As debate, Biden clearly had the better of it, if anyone in the US cared, which I think they didn't.
Palin came off as a bit of a fool as well, thouugh this was a huge step up from her previous appearances as a gibbering idiot.
God knows the Democrats are far from perfectly honest. But does it seem to anyone else that the main Republican attacks consist of outright lies, and that these are considerably farther down the mendacity scale than usual?
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Arthur,
That reminds me of something....And, "with the election of Reagan" came the removal of the solar panels on the White House roof that Jimmy BCarter had fitted....;-(
ed
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Arthur Putey, there are a lot of ways of looking at the problem. I tend to view it as the decline and fall of noblesse oblige. The heritage of Washington, in particular, of acting the part of a virtuous person, was challenged by Reagan.
He also started the practice of financing his popularity on the backs of our children and grandchildren, which Bush has continued after Clinton stopped it. Because if you aren't really trying to be virtuous, why not do that?
The sad truth is that both Obama, McCain, Palin and Biden are running for Santa Claus and Liar in Chief. They're competing with each other to see who can promise more pan et circensen when they need to be saying that we need to act responsibly, even if it's unpleasant.
27% of the US budget goes to service the debt. If we'd been responsible, we'd have 27% more money to spend on medical care, education, etc. That's the issue, if you ask me, and both candidates are explaining how they'll run the debt up even higher.
It's all very sad.
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#41 Arthur Putey
The UK Director of Education at the Royal Institution (a prestigious scientific institute) said he wanted creationism taught in schools in exactly the same way as Sarah Palin did
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Could I recommend to all those who who are still looking for more information about the candidates/choices the piece in The New Yorker entitled "The Choice"
Although dated 13 October 2008 I have been able to download it today.
Like Ryan Lizza's piece earlier in the summer (which, although a massive piece of investigate work, was drowned out by the "terrorist fist bump" magazine cover) this is a serious article worthy of attention by students, young and old, of this election.
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"it's a sign that the campaign recognizes how the past two weeks have erased nearly all of McCain's gains since August. "
I wish reporters would just come out and say it- Palin is hurting McCain's campaign. Of course the recent economic crisis has compounded this, but the fact remains, Palin is pulling McCain down.
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--Heh heh heh!
ed
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#55 ilvalleygal
O yes Barack Obama seems to go with the flow that goes in the direction he wants.
The removal of all of his opponents (including his former sponsor, Alice Palmer) from the primary ballot for state senator was particularly ruthless.
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A wait of over half an hour while the censors vet submissions isn't exactly conducive to a spontaneous flow of creativity and thought. And with oncoming short term memory loss ......what was I saying?
Mind, it was over an hour early this morning.
Again, why is this pre-moderated? What is the point of the "Complain about this post button"?
Regards to all
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#56 Ohnevermind
Never mind that you don't know what socialism is, what communism is, what triangulation means, that there never has been a 'free market', that we already had 'socialism dressed up as capitalism' (see new deal and british welfare state) before clinton et al, that communist China is doing better than us.
Time to grow up indeed!
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Sarah Palin did say one extraordinary thing towards the end of the debate when she announced that she had enjoyed talking to the American people "without the filter of the media".
Don't know how she thought that the debate arrived in people's living rooms without the filter of the media, but one does tremble at the thought of what she might have in mind.
She told us that she wants to expand the role of the Vice Presidency. Are we to expect a weekly vice presidential fireside screech from somewhere around no. 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue ?
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Redwhiteandermblue,
Blurt Out Random Crap.I certainly noticed Ms Palin's habit of blurting out unsubstantiated statements about tax increases, etc. Biden was wise to let it run off like water shaken by a lame-duck's fluttering...;-)
ed
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The whole debate was a waste of time.
They (two candidates + moderator) were so concerned with being polite to each other, that they were too scared to ask specific, pointed questions, and demand specific answers.
The moderator was useless - ask a load of questions and let them say whatever they want without nailing them on their answers.
And asking bland questions. Why not ask specific questions about their known weaknesses?
All in all, it was just one TV commercial after the other. Same coment about last week's presidential debate.
For a country that's always telling everyone how tough they are, all these people have been pathtically weak in their debating so far.
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palin is like THE trashiest piece of buzzard bait there is.
she's SOOO OT . I mean WOW she's like the most un awsome awsome like kinda.Well you know.
Man she's like wow SOOO high school.
Like for the first time they've got someone who is SOOO like young.
I mean wow She's so much a womam , like WInk WOW.
Go girl.
She's a nasty highschool bully made it big.
If she plays on the world stage then we are all in trouble.
A clueless vacuous bimbo. That is not sexist,just a fact.
A disgrace to every woman I have met and spoken to about her, but some "Crabs and Goyles" just always back the one who seems confident.
How is any world leader going to take her seriously.
If she wants to be "average mom" then why not go be "average mom" NOT VP.
that is not average.
Sher bust her town financially but made out that she did them great.
WASSILATE
You americans are pathetic.
Those that think she is even barely OK rather are pathetic.
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http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/10/the-conventiona.html
Danny Finkelstein in the Times thinks Obama has it in the bag.
I think it's premature, a lot of things can go wrong in the next 30 days, and the GOP are about to start going strongly negative and bring up Rev Wright, "bittergate" and patriotism.
We still don't know what voters will do in the privacy of the ballot booth.
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56. At 2:49pm on 03 Oct 2008, OhNeverMind wrote:
Listen all you socialists out there. The party is over.
There
IS
NO
MORE
Socialism.
Even the communists gave up on it.
You had the Clinton/Blair triangulation (Socialism dressed up as Capitalism.)
for a while, which is where this mess started.
There is ONLY free market capitalism. So get used to it.
Time to grow up.
And never get in to debt you can't afford EVER AGAIN
------------------------------------------
They just gave up fighting our way with the cold war. Given UP ask Putin.
Are you so sure.
Capitalism gave up screw bailing you out.
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#14, Young
Rumors are this morning that the House only has about 60% of the votes and that it will be stalled on the floor rather than killed outright. We shall see ...
It is incredible that they have these votes after the Senate added another $150bn and none of the pork was taken out - and it is overflowing with pork - disgusting what they have done. Quite easy to see why the Congressional approval rating is now at 9%. It will be interesting to see the yays that have turned into nays and vice-versa.
What is also not helping is the hive of lobbyists that have innundated the Capitol and also paying staff to call into the reps; the US Chamber of Commerce threatening the reps (who, mind you, the US CofC spent over $40 million in lobbying efforts over the past 10 years on the Hill - guess they feel they deserve a say); and the scare tactics that are being employed.
I, for one am tired of the fear-mongering from both of these parties.
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Chill0,
Not quite!;-0
ed
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I'm embarrassed for my country. How can we pretend that Palin did a good job on the debate only because she didn't fail. Nothing she said was of real substance. All she did was try and manipulate people with emotional stories that might appeal to people that the Republicans have proven they don't care for. Stop winking at the camera lady, you aren't my friend. It's not professional. It's time that someone who behaves like a world leader to lead again. Someone who knows the policy(and didn't just cram for the debate memorizing empty facts) and has seen more of the world. Palin is a mockery of intelligent women in the world and perhaps a worse mockery of our government than even George Bush's mess.
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The good old days...
The continuing excellent BBC series, "America, Empire of Liberty". I commend it to all.
God Bless America!
ed
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I think she has a good shot at picking up some votes in the swamps of the Florida Everglades, and possibly a few more in "Deliverance" County, West Virginia.
I think McCain should have some deep second thoughts about his own safety though....with her repeated slips referencing the "Palin-McCain" campaign, and her desire to amend the Constitution to expand the VP powers, and the way she pouts and looks put out when she has to switch from herself to McCain as a topic....hope she doesn't try to slip him a mickey so she can get in the top spot - she doesn't seem to like second fiddle.
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Re Magic #47
You are right on the money.
Michigan has a socialist, Canadian governor. Until she is gone and the populists that made her possible are out-numbered, Michigan has no economic future.
McCain is very much in touch with working people. He understands:
1) You must produce goods and services
2) You must produce more than you consume
Without these, there is no sustained economy.
Neither of these concepts seem to be understood by Obama supporters. Certainly the promises Obama makes have no realistic economic basis.
The role of government is to make the concepts above possible. It is up to the individuals to utilize the opportunity.
The $25B McCain wants to make available to the domestic firms is to help them transition their foundations to be more effective with "1" and "2" above.
McCain is cutting his losses on a state with a high socialist, populist tendency.
He is losing Michigan because he does not pander to the unrealistic.
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Can you imagine the scorn that Republicans would have poured on Hillary Clinton if she were on Obama's ticket for VP and had come out with the guff that we have heard and seen from Sarah Palin?
The mind boggles!
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64. At 3:23pm on 03 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#55 ilvalleygal
O yes Barack Obama seems to go with the flow that goes in the direction he wants.
The removal of all of his opponents (including his former sponsor, Alice Palmer) from the primary ballot for state senator was particularly ruthless."
Yes he's an ambitious politician. Elections tend to be full of them.
Not really the point.
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"74. At 3:47pm on 03 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Chill0,
"he wanted creationism taught in schools in exactly the same way as Sarah Palin did"
Not quite!
"Rather than dismissing creationism as a "misconception", he says it should be seen as a cultural "world view".
Teachers should take the time to explain why creationism had no scientific basis, Prof Reiss said.
He stressed that the topic should not be taught as science. "
Is it not true that this fool was obliged to resign for his remarks?
This sort of witchcraft/tomfoolery has not caught on in the UK and hopefully never will do.
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What everyone seems to ignore by just going after Palin, is the fact Biden LIED more than Palin did, OK so he did it in a more convincing way, having been idling in the senate 36 years that is not a huge surprise. He consistently lied last night and I was dissappointed Sarah did not tackle him more for it, his saying McCain voted 20 times against bills for alternative energy sources is downright misleading, McCain voted against the Millions of dollars of pork added on to those bills, McCAIN never voting on a bill loaded with pork shows INTEGRITY which is more than you can say for obama or biden.
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# 40 #41
Remember, the American system installed Bush TWICE!
Palin is a representative symbol of a large constituency.
If the NeoCon-manipulated fundamentalists are reinstalled, there no hope of a revised American political discourse.
If they are not reinstalled, there is great need for a revised and coherent American worldview to be articulated.
Talking albout indvidual ticks and foibles should yield to a discussion of values, goals and objectives.
Even if this cannot be done for the USA, then it should be attempted for the civilized international community.
[One academic has spoken of a world of opposed fundamentalist civilizations- this might be the entropy resultant from inaction]
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McCain is losing Michigan because he has pandered to that 5% that hold the bulk of America's wealth for his entire political career, and because he supported Bush/Cheney throughout their entire policial careers. Michigan is hurting big-time and has been for years, and they want a voice - not a "trickle down".
This concept that a $5000 'tax credit' if you pay your own insurance will help anyone is SO RIDICULOUS, I do not know a SINGLE PERSON who can afford to self-insure their family - it is like $1200 a month for the most minimal coverage WITH DEDUCTIBLES.
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Blah blah blah tom and his foolery,
I give up here today, money to make.
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reply to #68
"I certainly noticed Ms Palin's habit of blurting out unsubstantiated statements about tax increases, etc. Biden was wise to let it run off like water shaken by a lame-duck's fluttering..."
The reason BIDEN did not respond is because he can't refute TRUTH, its a fact everytime democrats get in TAXES go up, it happened when Quale said it, to be shouted down and then PROVED correct afterwards. Palin is also CORRECT obama gets in and TAXES will go up FOR EVERYONE
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This is very defeatist of John McCain. I don't think he's going to win Michigan come November but to simply just give up on that state (and so publicly) is pathetic. This, along with his pick of Sarah Palin as running mate, suggests that the "Maverick" is surrounding himself with the wrong advisers. To try and call the election more than a month before it happens shows demonstrates what a diasaster he would be as President.
Without strayin from your current blog though Justin, may I ask what you make of this story?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/03/business/marketwatch/main4497125.shtml
Very worrying.
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I can't wait to see what SNL does with this debate.
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Has anyone noticed that during the space of one week the word "socialist" has superceded "liberal" as a term of abuse for anyone of a Democratic tendency ?
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I wonder sometimes, what is wrong with some things being socialized? Health care energy, education, to neme a few. That way they could have some regulation as needed.
As it stands, I pay taxes for what? I have to pay extra for healthcare which Idon't have and can't afford, my gas bills are $500 a month in the winter, And the town I live in has some of the worst schools in the state, while a 5 minute drive will get me some of the best schools in the nation. I'm not boo-hooing, because I never bought outside my means and usually paid cash for everything. I own my house and pay all my bills on time. It's the caught in the middle senario. My assets and pay are just above the scale not to be able to collect welfare, even though i've paid into it since I was 14, and i dont make enough to go to the doctor on a regular basis, and hope i don't get sick.
I'm rambling, but I definitly don't see a McCain/Palin ticket helping me out, I don't care how down to earth she proclaims to be. I'm sooo glad Chicago is only a 45 minute drive for me. Small towns are great but a little injection of a large city can only help your
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I wonder sometimes, what is wrong with some things being socialized? Health care energy, education, to neme a few. That way they could have some regulation as needed.
As it stands, I pay taxes for what? I have to pay extra for healthcare which I don't have and can't afford, my gas bills are $500 a month in the winter, And the town I live in has some of the worst schools in the state, while a 5 minute drive will get me some of the best schools in the nation. I'm not boo-hooing, because I never bought outside my means and usually paid cash for everything. I own my house and pay all my bills on time. It's the caught in the middle senario. My assets and pay are just above the scale not to be able to collect welfare, even though i've paid into it since I was 14, and i dont make enough to go to the doctor on a regular basis, and hope i don't get sick.
I'm rambling, but I definitly don't see a McCain/Palin ticket helping me out, I don't care how down to earth she proclaims to be. I'm sooo glad Chicago is only a 45 minute drive for me. Small towns are great but a little injection of a large city can only help.
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Hail Mary vs. Cool Barry
And from one of the Lords of the Right Wing!;-)
ed
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Glad I could clear that up about the six-pack. Yes, it refers to beer, not to any muscular development. Have you seen our men over here? Too many are desk job guys that look like they hit McDonalds at every lunchtime, and our obesity rate reflects that. I know precious few American males over 30 that actually exercise enough to have defined abs. Thankfully my hubby is one, and I'm offended that Palin automatically assumes he isn't. ugh.
Ashill - Palin obviously things we're that stupid. We've done stupider things before, so I don't have much hope. But here's to the miniscule amout of hope left!
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Ref 89
"Has anyone noticed that during the space of one week the word "socialist" has superceded "liberal" as a term of abuse for anyone of a Democratic tendency ?"
Calling Obama's fiscal and economic proposals socialist is a last ditch tactic by desperate Republicans who can not put anything substantive on the table. This is not the first time the GOP resorts to name calling, innuendo, and blatant lies to damage the credibility of their opponents, and I doubt it will be the last.
Fortunately, their old tactics don't seem to be working this time around, but I would not be surprised if their next attempt is a bit of fearmongering...Who knows, we may even learn about a Grenadian plot to invade the USA!
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Justin,
As I predicted yesterday, Joe Biden won this contest hands down by being himself, and his innate intelligence and experience spoke volumes in comparison to Palin, who for the most part looked a lot like a "rabbit in the headlights".
The lack of moderation in the debate was very noticeable, and governor Palin must realise that if she is posed a question, she is supposed to answer it, instead of deviating from the question at hand.
If America still hasn't woken up to the fact that the appointment of Palin as a VP candidate is the worst political appointment in U.S. history they saw that tonight, because all we got from Palin was well orchestrated rhetoric with no gravitas. Heaven knows what this woman would be like if she had to think on her feet.
Conversely, Joe Biden looked very (vice) presidential in his demeanour, his knowledge and more importantly, in answering the questions that were posed to him. In truth, this wasn't even a competition, as if you don't know who exhibits more (vice) presidential traits of these two, you seriously need your head examined, whatever your political allegiance.
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Palin, Palin, Palin- winking, sending shout outs, blowing kisses, smiling wickedly, ........I can't believe we are having to deal with this woman at such a serious time.
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The Bill just unofficially passed in the House - although the gavel hasn't dropped yet. The debate this morning was intense.
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On the Michigan topic
;-)ed
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regular_josephina
If your husband is a man,.. he looks at Palin as a really hot librairian.
That said, is it true that fair looking women are more outraged, jealeous or inflammed at Palin because she is everything they never will be?
Its is proven to have caused a medical affliction in many women whom, after fighting for years to attain success in a mans world, can not handle the real success Palin has achieved. Vitiol, the caustic quality expressed by women in discribing Palin other than describing her Political stance. Shear jealous response.
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#78 neila2;
#86 blue paddy.
Really cant believe what I'm reading here. McCain is so on the button with the economy - oh yeah - exactly how much is that war in Iraq costing? How much has it cost so far, and how much more will it cost before USA gets the hell out?
Forgive me for putting some facts in the way, but didnt Clinton with his socialism run budget surpluses, and is it good ol' Dubya with his "tax-cutting" agenda who has run up the biggest deficits in history?
Taxes really arent going to vary very much whoever gets in, except that Obama has stated that those at the very top end who really can afford it will be taxed more. Whats important is how those taxes are used.
I would be incensed as an American voter to be shelling out trillions for a pointless war.
I would also be annoyed that Painful says her son will be defending USA by going to IRAQ. Again, forgive me for pointing out some facts here: Iraq did not launch 9:11, nor would it ever have allied itself to the islamic theocracy that Afghanistan was.
But like I said, dont let facts get in the way of a good old rant!!
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chillo # 60
"I have encountered a few 'creationists' and because they were usually nice, intelligent people, I have been unable to decide whether they were really mad or only pretending to be mad. If I was a religious person, I would consider creationism nothing less than blasphemy. Do its adherents imagine that God is a cosmic hoaxer who has created the whole vast fossil record for the sole purpose of misleading humankind ?" - Arthur C. Clarke.
Arthur C Clarke
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For Gods sake Auntie Beeb, cant you get some more moderators?
this 30 minute delay is unacceptable.
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Could this be the next big campaign
issue?
A gift from Putin to McCain?
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What I heard was that the next conspiracy theory "fear and panic" instilling manipulation (since bailout backfired) was for Bush to permit Israel to do flyover attacks of Iran in Oct, prior to election, so the people would turn to McCain (I think that, too, would backfire) -- but the consensus was that some of the less thick-skulled of the administration realize the repercussions would be apocolyptic. Jeesh I hope wiser heads prevail, and that the GOP handlers are satisfied with just stripping the US of the last of its wealth before leaving office....$700B ought to tide them over for a couple of terms.
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Dougtexan are you for real? Palin resembles the scary, neighborhood nib-nose, gossip-mongering, clique-loving, two-faced, double standard, try to run every PTA or other group available but never do the dirty work, back stabbing, wink at the hubby then criticize his paycheck behind his back and giggle, kind of woman we all know but try our best to avoid. Jealousy?...no, it is disgust and fear. Look where the wrinkles on her face are forming....she's a meanie.
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# That is an extraordinarily stupid post.
Leaving aside the sexist smear of Palin herself as a "hot librarian", it goes on :
"It is proven to have caused a medical afflication in many women who have fought for years to attain success in a man's world cannot handle the real success Palin has achieved."
What is this medical condition ? Are there any studies that we could see ?
This seems to be the sort of statement usually filed under the heading of BS.
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#103, markingtime, perhaps the creationists you
have met were really talking about Coyote.
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Hmmmm, if we can substitute "Socialist" now for the word "Liberal," can we start substituting the word "Isolationist" for the words "Maverick" or "Conservative"?
Just thinkin' outloud. . .but I'll keep the substitute word "Fascist" to m'self.
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#105. pluto61: "For Gods sake Auntie Beeb, cant you get some more moderators?
this 30 minute delay is unacceptable."
I imagine that they have more than this one blog to moderate. Patience is a virtue, which you appear not to possess.
BTW - equating President Clinton with socialism (#100) shows that you have very little understanding of US politics. Clinton was/is no more socialist than Margaret Thatcher.
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bluepaddy13 # 82, #86
You have obviously a case of kissing the Blarney Stone.
We live in a two strange worlds of Europe and [Irish]America.
Palin- the brain?
Palin- the idiot?
Palin --the idiot---http://
What is the world coming to when an idiot with a degree in history from Oxford becomes a comedian- and developes into
a modern day historian / writer encompassing art and travel:
and a hockey mom with a degree in changing high schools and universities strives to become vice president, and is now developing into a comedienne.????
Must be something in the water in America.[ or the Liffey in Ireland].
I envy you the Liffey stuff but imbibe everything in moderation, otherwise when you start SHOUTING, you begin to lose any relevant argument.
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gunsandreligion:
Don't misunderestimate Putin; whatever he comes up with between now and January, it won't be quite that obvious. He was in the KGB, remember?
But whatever it is, it'll take the USA by surprise and leave them flummoxed, I'm pretty sure.
It used to be called 'tweaking the lion's tail'. 'Pulling out the eagle's tail feathers' isn't as pithy, is it?
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The argument that Obama will raise taxes strikes me as pathetic.
The issue for me is whether either candidate will be responsible enough to admit that spending 27% of our budget on servicing the debt is the result of an enormous error in policy, and it's time to rectify this error by starting to pay our bills. You know, the way responsible people do.
The fact that that deficit was run up by W., after being chipped away at by Clinton makes it clear that at least in the past, the Democrats were the better party on the matter of being responsible. It's also striking how strong the correlation has been between a Democratic president and a strong economy. These are good arguments for Obama.
The one thing McCain could do that would make me consider voting for him would be to apply some "straight talk" to this simple problem. Something on the order of, we either have to tax more, spend less or both.
But all you hear from him--and from Obama, too--is how many more goodies he's going to give away.
As it stands, I'm for either candidates taxing more, as I'm for either of them spending less. Anyone should be, who doesn't want to saddle his or her children and grandchildren with the bills he or should have paid.
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#115, RWeB, I'm with you. The inability of either
candidate to communicate to the American people
the size problematic size of our debts, public and
private, is the main reason I'm having trouble
voting for either one.
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I watched most of the debate between kid's homework oversight.
Biden had enough restraint NOT to respond to one of Palin's "I guess that's just how a Washington insider can be for something before being against it " schoolyard-tone jibes with something like "or how a so-called 'outsider' like you can be for a bridge to nowhere before you are against it, and keep the money anyway".
A family friend now in graduate school commented that Palin on the attack reminded her of every 'mean girl' she endured in high school, scheming over social cliques and boyfriends.
I liked Biden's highlighting of McCain's voting record as a free-market de-regulating non-Maverick. (Years ago I drove or jogged by Feingold's garage door in our Wisconsin suburb, where he had painted the promises of his first campaign-- he has stayed a truer course over time than McCain). McCain's bursts of 'Maverick regulation' in the past were reactive (such as national air tour regulation after non-air tourists at National Parks complained of noise and air tourists died in crashes).
Someone please link back to the 3rd party review of Obama's and McCain's detailed tax plans that forecast a $3 Trillion deficit increase under Obama vs. a $5 Trillion deficit increase under McCain. That put the lie to all the 'tax and spend' name calling of Obama by dittohead Republicans.
McCain's proposed trickle-down continuation of Bush policies and tax breaks for the wealthy few are what then-candidate George H.W. Bush called 'voodoo economics' when first espoused by Reagan. The wealthy - even the so-called robber barons - used to make or produce things and employ thousands of Americans. While some still do think in 19th century terms of the obligations of success (for example Warren Buffett's recent donations and his pointed investments to underscore the ongoing Wall Street rescue last week, or ventures funded from private wealth like the SpaceX team emplying about 500 people), since Sam Walton the trend has been more to concentrate American wealth by importing products, exporting jobs, avoiding taxes, and by turning fundamental investments (like mortgages) into commodities removed from a lender-borrower relationship with middle steps of commission-driven sales added in.
I agree with Biden that this is a watershed election about America's future and I think that the party core Republicans are proving to be the 'knee-jerk' reactionaries of today.
The mentions of Sputnik are very relevant since we are in several races that many voters seem unaware of: new energy and the technology export market that offers; a race to keep jobs with intellectual and innovative competition in a world filled with millions of new PhD's and engineers; a race against depleting our oceans and arable land; and opportunities to fairly partner with resource-rich and infrastruture and education-poor African and Latin American nations before new totalitarian partnerships replace the old imperial ones. We are in a world that seems more like the turn of early 1800s than most of the 20th century, one filled with opportunities if we have energy and vision to look beyond the last 8 years.
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regular_josephina # 93
Glad to hear your husband trains, and has the correct six-pack.
DougTexan # 99 has obviously been looking at the bottom of the glass and too many cows
out on the range if he feels Palin is Gods gift to the male race.
Perhaps it is the Texan beer he drinks using pseudo Bavarian techniques to make it.
I think your mention of "abs" hit him for six.
DouTexan
You can't be a Real Country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a real beer ~ Frank Zappa
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gunsandreligion #101
Lovely stories Thanks.
North American Indian and Australian Aborigine stories are a class apart.
Staying this end with Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and the fairies at the bottom of the garden for my grandchildren!
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To Pluto61
"I would also be annoyed that Palin says her son will be defending USA by going to IRAQ. Again, forgive me for pointing out some facts here: Iraq did not launch 9:11, nor would it ever have allied itself to the islamic theocracy that Afghanistan was.""
YOU obviously have zero knowledge of Military strategy and most likely have never pulled on a Uniform (Military).. it is totally irrelevant that it was not Iraq which attacked us on 9/11. That is not the issue what so ever. The fact is we open a front against the enemy so THAT we decide where to fight them, which puts them on the defense. It is a FACT they flocked to Iraq to fight us there because they thought they could win, and because it?s easier for them to go there than do attacks on the US mainland, the fact that they are now on the run from Iraq and trying to re-group in Afghanistan shows they are on the run (Not defeated completely) but on the run. It is also a Fact by a soldier serving in Iraq he IS DEFENDING the
US homeland, how anyone can dispute that is simply moronic. Also if ?we? had not gone in, Saddam would have for sure finished his acquisition of WMD, we would STILL to this day not know if he had them or not, it?s easy to say NOW after we went in that we cannot find them, HE got rid of them when he know for sure we were coming. YOU can thank the fact we went in that WMD?s are not falling in the hands of terrorists from that source. Known Terrorists were also hiding in Iraq that was disclosed after we went in. So by ridding the world of a tyrant like Saddam, establishing the facts about WMD (its hiding in Syria or Iran) and Iraq is acting as a magnet for Al Q so we can take them out there, for me Obama is WRONG on everything about defeating the terrorists and has no clue about the Military, to be Commander in Chief is ABOVE obama's pay grade along with most other jobs, he has 143 days experience THAT'S it, and this fool is running on top of the ticket, yet the moronic liberal hordes are shriking about Palin ! its unbelievable. The most unqualifed Presidential nominee in 100 years
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Michigan was never a real hope for Republicans?????? You are always so wrong about this election ans so jaded towards obama you need to get your head out and have some ethics towards your job. Kerry and Gore both won Michigans and when you look at the job loss in Michigan conservatives were never going to win. Mccain has Fla,Penn,Ohio wrapped up and this thing is over. Unless you want us to believe like the last election when the polls said Kerry had a 10 pt lead the day he lost by more votes ever recorded in our countries history.
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regular_josephina I'd vote for you, you make me smile.
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Hi Folks,
Warning: a raging Democrat here.
I was dumbfounded 4 years ago when Bush was elected AGAIN. I've been feeling pretty confident about the election -- until last night's debate anyway. McCain's team helped Palin pull off a masterfully crafted performance designed to pull in a large segment (which shall remain nameless) of our population. She played the part VERY WELL to her intended audience. Frankly, I really am worried! We have so many people who are unable to think for themselves or see past the act.
Biden was amazing! What an asset he is to our country! These has been a big push to register our young people and minorities to vote in this election. I sure hope they come out in force to vote for Obama/Biden. The thought of enduring another 4 years is just too much to contemplate!
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There is all this talk of who won the "debate." The new Intrade odds show a rise for Obama to 69.6, and McCain dropping to 30.3. Whether this is due to pessimism about the economy or a reaction to the debate probably cannot be determined. Last night McCain was running at around 34. Today the market fell again. Buffet suggested on Charlie Rose that the deal was too little and too late.
The electoral map has not changed. With leaning states allocated, it is 353 electoral votes for Obama and 185 for McCain. Barring an unforseen event, it looks like Obama is unstoppable.
So much for the racism and sexism factors in this race. Apparently the media is more fond of those isms than is the voting public. That makes the voting public more fair-minded and moral than the media.
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70, Jack.
No point being upset about Palin. She is no longer a factor. McCain is no longer a factor. Whew! The thought of her running our country was very scary.
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37, Dominick.
The red of Missouri and West Virginia is beginning to fade as well.
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55, ilvalleygal.
It is hard to take someone seriously who describes Obama as "the U.S. Senator from Chicago." I have news for you, honey. US senators to not represent cities.
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US perspective - not Joe six pac - small biz owner.
All of the information that you receive is either seen on the net, on TV or in the papers.
Never have I seen in America the press so lax in investigations, O has had a free ride from day one - the liberal left, Hollywood, media, academics are so infatuated it is truly beyond any rational thought process.
Last nights moderator has a financially vested interest in seeing Obama win - her book might not make the best seller list if McCain prevails.
Palin - light on experience - absolutely - what about Jimmy Carter, LBJ, and Bill - OK we will toss in W as well?
The public is not seeing the real Obama - if he wins we will see his true nature, liberal elitist as your Ambassador to the US rightly explained in his letter to your PM recently.
Housing/financial disaster - started with LBJ - added to by Carter pushing housing for the less fortunate to be paid by those who earn a living - relaxed regulations - Glass- Segall act - by Bill Clinton - all Democrats - all relaxed regulations, pushed affordable housing programs - McCain 2006 - SB 190 - look it up on the net - two years ago - pushed the bill to Franks - asking for more not less regulation of Fannie and Freddie - Franks would not even put the bill before the committee for vote - but listen to the press - 100% of the current econmic crisis is on the shoulders Bush - hmmm - time for the media to do a bit of homework for America and our friends abroad.
Two simple questions - how is it that Obama the community organizer lost his election in his own district - where people knew his record - present - present - present - BUT he is in line to win the presidency.
Question #2 - what wll happen if the Executive branch and congress are the same ticket - it would be a first - no checks and balances - a blank check to the liberals - that thought alone should send any sane person to the side of McCain
America will survive and prosper but not until obama ends his first and only 4 year term if elected.
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#89
YES. Try reading some comment boards from American media outlets. It's much worse. The average Amerian has no idea what socialism is or what the word socialist means. There is some vague idea that it involves taking all the money from the working man and giving it to the unmarried welfare mothers and the illegal aliens.
On one board a man's post we taken down and he complained about how socialist that was. And other people agreed. I would have corrected him and pointed out that he might have meant fascist, but I would have been called a socialist and didn't have the patience for it. After all, its not in vogue right now to be educated enough to know the difference.
I don't have the heart to point out to these socialism-phobes that pure capitalism doesn't exist, or that I don't think it should, as we have not evolved enough to implement it without crushing people in the process.
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Oh glorious day,
Im proud that my state always does its part to fight Bible n' Guns demagogues such as W. and Palin.
Here in Michigan, where the economy is tanking, we dont fall for that kind of stuff.
Obama 08
Jonathan, Detroit, Michigan
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ref #128
He is from Chicago and he never represented the rest of Illinois anyway.
Of course he was too busy running for President.
Too bad you are still suffering from PDS of course it is a change from your lds problem
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#20
Exactly what's the use? I wonder that too when I read the type of clap trap you have so carefully typed. If you and others like you do not understand that McCain is just a continuation of the Bush debacle the future certainly appears grim. To compete in the world we live in today we require more than military might, more than an absolute conviction that we are right and those who have a different point of view are wrong. We must invest in healthcare FOR EVERONE, we must fund education and not just come up with emotive phraseology like No Child Left Behind, we must develop an economic atmosphere that attracts investment which will in turn create jobs. The my way or the highway approach of McCain/Palin will do none of these things - it is old, cold war mentality that is as relevant today as buggy whips.
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#126
From your lips to God's ears.
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#128. allmymarbles: "It is hard to take someone seriously who describes Obama as "the U.S. Senator from Chicago." I have news for you, honey. US senators to not represent cities."
The point that ilvalleygal (55) was making is, I think, that Obama originated from the Chicago political 'machine', not that he was solely representing Chicago. Perhaps ilvalleygal sees Senator Obama as an heir to the Daley (Sr) years.
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#115
At last someone who understands that you can't get something for nothing. I agree. I am also quite willing to pay increased taxes, for good roads, an education system that guarantees a college education for all those who want it, universal health care, social services that will reduce violent crime and decrease the prison population. But all this is branded with the ugly socialism word. So we retreat behind gated communities, adopt an I'm all right Jack attitude, refuse to talk to anyone who disagrees with us, while all the time the world we think we are protecting is crumbling around us.
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#81. Simon21: Is it not true that this fool (Michael Reiss )was obliged to resign for his remarks?"
Not quite. According to The Times "He resigned because others ascribed to him beliefs that were not his own."
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For Jaybird & all,
Hope that's some help.Tax proposals analysis
And, the projected effect on deficits
Peace to all ()
ed
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#129. wp2008 asks "how is it that Obama the community organizer lost his election in his own district . . . BUT he is in line to win the presidency."
Because more people prefer him over the alternative. Having had so many years of a Republican presidency, it's a case of 'Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.' The electorate does not care to be fooled any longer.
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Harry Reid said something supremely stupid. He announced that a major insurance company is on the verge of bankruptsy. He didn't give the name of the company.
So what happened on the stock market? The shares of all major insurance companies fell hard. That's all we need - another panic (and this one affecting sound companies).
Given such stupidity on the part of a senior elected official, maybe we are wrong and Palin. She would fit right in.
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132, Ubermensch.
Congratulations! You are still championing ignorance.
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A smear
and a responseMore background...Salaam, etc.
ed
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Pigs in S--T "We got away with it!"
$700,000,000,000.00 - The greatest ripoff in history!
A sad day
;-(
ed
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It gets worse
;-(
ed
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By conceding Michigan, McCain has admitted he is weak in an highly industialised state, one which is feeling a lot of the current economic crisis. With the economy increasingly becoming the theme of this election, rather than his normal patronising patriotism, he is conceding he is weak in the most important issue for most Americans and indeed the world, showing that he is out of touch and out of his depths in the current global sitiuation.
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94. DominickVila:
"Calling Obama's fiscal and economic proposals socialist is a last ditch tactic by desperate Republicans who can not put anything substantive on the table. "
Perhaps we should just continue to call him a tax-and-spend-democrat.
There are several substantive issues "on the table" with respect to Obama -- for example, his lack of experience, his poor performance in Chicago, his questionable association with Ayers -- to name a few.
He's an empty suit.
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139. David_Cunard:
#129. wp2008 asks "how is it that Obama the community organizer lost his election in his own district . . . BUT he is in line to win the presidency."
Because more people prefer him over the alternative. Having had so many years of a Republican presidency, it's a case of 'Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.' The electorate does not care to be fooled any longer.
********************
I see it a bit differently. I believe our electorate is desperate for a hero, and they've made Obama into one. They want to believe his promises.
We're all entitled to dream.
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143, Ed.
If the government buys and sells wisely, it will make money.
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Michael Totten on Joe Biden's comment on Hezbollah and Lebanon:
Joe Biden?s Alternate Universe
Michael Totten's blogging from the Middle East has usually been a very good read, especially if you're interested in events on the ground during war.
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Ms Marbles,
A BIG "IF"We shall see what we shall see. Paulson won't end up poorer - no doubts there.
xx
ed
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#147. AndreainNY: "I see it a bit differently. I believe our electorate is desperate for a hero, and they've made Obama into one. They want to believe his promises. "
You may well be correct - the White Knight effect. Probably in equal parts.
"We can all dream": A Dream Is a Wish Your Heart Makes. And plenty of voters have that in their heart.
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In the past week, I like many of my fellow Americans have with much apprehension watched TV, listened to radio and read newspapers as an unprecedented event of national crisis unfolds, the collapse of our financial markets.
Amid Americas' anger, frustration, fear and concern many questions make their way to the forefront: How did this happen? Who is responsible? Can it be fixed? Who will fix it? What can I do?
It happened due to corruption, greed, gross negligence and apathy. Not just from CEO's but also by those who enabled them, our elected officials, many that now would have us believe they will supply the fix. The rest of us should not piously exclude ourselves for many have allowed instant gratification to cloud judgment, resulting in poorly managed finances.
As Americans we survived 911, then fought to inoculate ourselves through stronger defense and safeguards against those who would destroy us. Will this cancer from within now do what the terrorist failed to do?
We have an obligation to our children and grandchildren to successfully end this crisis. Look into their expectant faces: Will apathy and inaction cause them to stand in bread lines or will our work and determination secure the happiness they so rightly deserve.
One of the most powerful tools we have at our disposal is the handle in the polling booth. Use it wisely on November 4th.
My name is Richard Neal Huffman, and I approve this message.
** This was published on Wednesday Oct. 2nd, 2008 in 'The Herald-Paladium' which covers southwestern lower Michigan. You may go to their web site to view it as it appeared on their page.
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Have any of the candidates brought up the subject of usury? Certainly some of the rates on credit cards are criminal, if not legally, then morally.
A lot of credit car users get into debt because of greed, the "I'm worth it mentality." But once into serious debt they have little chance of getting out because of the exhorbitant interest charges.
There should be a limit on these charges. It would be nice if buyers could learn self-control, but there is little hope of that. Still, that is no reason to make an unreasonable profit on people's foolishness.
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149.
Most people do not understand the situation in Lebanon because it is unique in the Middle East.
When the Lebanese constitution was promulgated in 1926, it stipulated that the president of Lebanese be a Maronite Christian because Maronites constituted a majority of the population.
Over time Lebanese Christians emigrated to western nations and Moslems moved into the land from the east. As the population shifted from Christian to Moslem, the Lebanese stopped taking the census in order to insure Maronite supremacy. The Moslems of Lebanon were treated as inferior, second-class citizens, even when they became the majority. (Lebanon is now overwhemingly Moslem.)
The Moslems of Lebanon resented their past treatment under the Maronites. For "Hezbollah," substitute "Moslem" and the reason for the changing political picture becomes clear.
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This was inevitable. Michigan was initially Edwards' stronghold among unions. Then the state went to Clinton. Romney would have helped McCain to fill the vacuum left behind by Hillary. However, McCain lost the union when he came to Michigan and had the nerve to tell auto workers whose jobs have been flying out fast to Asia, "Those jobs are not coming back, folks!!" Finally, his choice of Gov. was the final straw.....seen as an insult to Hillary Clinton.
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Regarding the bank bailout, we have been here before.
Must we learn this lesson every century or so?
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#153. allmymarbles "There should be a limit on these (credit card) charges." Agreed, the rates can be outrageous. I saw one recently which computed to 40%!
However, Americans have had credit availability (in the form of plastic) for far longer than the British and the notion of buying on time did not have the pejorative connotation that it did in Britain for many years. The "tally man" was something most people eschewed and paying cash was a mark of respectability. In my youth I always understood that it was credit which kept America, going, a new fridge, television or car every year. It is this entrenched view that continues. Some years ago I wanted to buy a new vehicle and tried to find out how much it was; the reply was "how much can you afford each month?" The sales person rejected my enquiry saying "you're not serious about this" quite ignoring the fact that I was going to pay cash. Not much money in that for the dealer!
Now of course, Britain has caught up and credit is equally as problematical for them as it is for Americans. They demand instant gratification, the flat panel TV, the "American" fridge or the newest car. Saving for something is, for most, no longer an option, which plays right into the hands of the credit providers who are happy to take advantage of those who just cannot wait a moment longer. A compact with the Devil!
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Can we please naturalize MICHAEL Palin, and exchange him for not-at-all funny Sarah Palin? We need a Silly Party candidate!
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157, David.
The people who will suffer economically in this crisis are those who owe money and have no savings. The rest, who have been careful with their earnings may feel a pinch, but they won't suffer. I am not talking about rich people, but those who have lived within their means.
I brought up my children to keep a zero balance on credit cards. If they couldn't afford that trip or a fancy car, then they could do without. The only exception that I could see to owing money was the purchase of a house. That is too much cash for anyone, except the exceedling rich, to come up with.
We are not old-fashioned peoplel; we are poeple who understand money.
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And, Ms. Marbles, your employees are partying.
I guess that socialism can actually promote a good
lifestyle, nothwithstanding other opinions posted
on this blog.
Not that I wouldn't buy the stock, but if they held
a party in my back yard, I would want to be able
to crash it.
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#159. allmymarbles: "I am not talking about rich people, but those who have lived within their means." Unhappily, that may exclude millions of people who have lived pay-cheque to pay-cheque, budgeting their payments accordingly. Lenders are equally at fault, tempting borrowers with teaser rates which promise no payment or no interest for X number of months - and the system is so well ingrained that few people think that owing so much is no sin - or problem.
Almost anyone, even the least solvent, can get a credit card of some kind. My father always bought his cars with cash, and eventually his last house. Very few would do so today because it seems that 'saving' is, except for retirement, simply not a consideration. How the cycle can be stopped is never discussed; bankruptcy, which would have been unthinkable years ago, is considered an honourable solution. Perhaps this all goes back to the time when interest payments were tax-deductible (in the US) on all forms of credit, not only real estate. The British have even less reason because there is no 'tax relief' on mortgage interest. However, no-one gets elected by promising to crack down on lenders, like it or not, we're hooked on instant gratification. Not the way you or I were brought up!
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160, guns.
I sold AIG after a few days at a small profit. It looks like they may find a way not to take government money, but I don't want to take a chance buying again.
Sorry you can't crash the party as my guest. I am not invited either.
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#162, I'm disappointed. I was hoping that you
could jet out there to determine how warm the
swimming pools are and whether the libations
are satisfactory.
I am tempted to fill in for you, by buying a small
amount of stock and appearing as a "major stockholder."
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I suppose that the media, liberal and conservative, will now turn their attention to the O. J. Simpson verdict and whether life imprisonment is (or will be) a suitable punishment. If nothing else it will clear the air for a short while but, considering that the jury was 100% white, will there be a backlash from African-Americans? Delicate times.
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# 164
David - probably time to put the tin hats on. The OJ verdict comes at a bad time, Troopergate is coming to a climax soon and McCain is going 100% negatitive. Could be a rocky road ahead.
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#158
Swapping Michael Palin for Sarah Palin.
Doesn't sound much of a deal for the Brits.
We'd need George Clooney, Jon Stewart,
the California climate, the Rocky Mountains
and Bill Gates's money thrown in as well before we'd even start negotiations (that's called setting the pre-conditions).
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Isn't post #164 race-baiting at its most naked? How does this guy 'Cunard' get away with it? Shameful on the part of the BBC moderators. Anyway...
On pulling out of Michigan: a mad, crazy, ridiculous decision. McCain's polled better there than in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Really, though, as #3 marbles said, he shouldn't have been in any of them to start with - maybe if he had some economic message he had a shot. Confining himself to the Bush states should have been hard work enough.
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#176
how is stating a fact, and exploring a possible outcome from said fact, race-baiting?
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#157 D_C
I get flooded with junk mail telling me I am eligible for credit this and credit card that. I laughed one day when i was offered a Gold card from Amex...and then the same day a platinum from a bank, i can't recall now, which was affiliated with Amex.
It was not so long ago that i remember having to jump through hoops on fire, reciting the alphabet backs at random whilst standing on one leg with hand tied behind my back, just to get a simple Barclaycard with a miserly £100 credit limit!, Amex was considerd only for those with telephone number bank accounts.
How times have changed....not for the better either.
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37, DV.
Sorry for the late comment, but I do think you are right: The polls at the moment are probably the best snapshot you have before the election as the final couple of weeks can sometimes send confused signals.
Add to that the fact that the October financial reporting season is about to commence. A lot of companies are about to put their hand up and admit to futher write-downs, so the markets are going to be, at best, wobbly; almost certainly people will be voting with a sub-10000 Dow and a lot of intense press speculation about the state of the economy. That is not good news for McCain. During the next month economic anxiety is going to intensify and all the dulcet reassurances of George Bush are not going to be worth a hill of beans. If anything the forthcoming financials means a further drift in the vote towards Obama. North Carolina here we come ;)
What will be interesting to watch over the next 2-3 weeks is if there is an escalation of campaign money going into Indiana, Missouri and, possibly, Georgia, putting it back in play; and whether McCain is forced to pull-out of Wisconsin and New Hampshire: that will suggest a devastating swing.
My favourite line from Casablanca is when Bogart and Bacall talk about the invasion of Paris; he tells her:
I remember everything about that day: you wore blue, the Germans wore grey.
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The fat lady is singing mcant. You are giving up in Michigan, where do you give up next?
On another note sp must be guilty of some serious wrong if the mcant campaign is trying so hard to obfuscate and delay the troopergate hearing. If you are guilty that is usually the method used to confuse the public and interfere with lawmakers.
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This is mostly a sports thread (where the parties are the teams and the candidates the players).
Are there any blogs that are more oriented to issues?
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# 170 - Mark
I may be wrong about this but I think I read recently that MsCain's figures are good in Wisconsin, bucking the trend.
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McCain?s' chance of being elected as the next US president seems getting poorer with the passage of every moment.
However, if the democrats could nominate another candidate for the US presidential election replacing Mr. Obama, would be better for various reasons.
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173, 80%
CNN has Obama ahead in Wisconsin 49-43 as of 22-23 September, so the next poll result must be very soon. I'd also like to see more recent polls for Colorado and Louisiana. The last Louisiana survey was way back on Sept 9-12 when McCain was ahead 50-43. It's about time it was brough up to date given what has happened since.
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# 174
....... and the reasons are ?
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MarkfromOxford....... some have put an APB and have got Danno looking out to book you .... noticeable by absence for a bit....!
Maybe you had challenged JohnAAA to a *views* duel on Blackheath and it took more time than you planned on? ! (Wonder why!)
Ed. No doubted you have noted the most recent *mission* across into Pakistan and fatalities plus a flurry of activity by Condo scooting around shoring up relations with another nation slightly further East again....... a calamity of timing or good sound judgement?
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Mark - thanks.
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172. Xie_Ming
I think the reason is that the parties themselves have treated this election as a game. Something I realised a while back. The GOP made a strategic mistake with McCain, banking on exploiting his military experience and the fear factor. This after opinion polls showed that Iraq was way behind the economy in electors priorities. That situation has become even more critical and the opportunistic tactic of adding Palin to the ticket has backfired even worse.
I don't know who in the GOP has been planning the partys' strategy, but given the current track record of decisions I would feel decidedly uneasy about having the GOP running the country.
So far there haven't been any issues specifically addressed by the candidates, just a lot of vague posturing about "change".
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G&R (156),
Thanks for that! Ain't that Avalon Project a fine resource?
Peace to all ()
ed
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ref #169
You are right there, I get offered about 5 credit cards a week.
And the topper 2 days ago, A $35,000 credit line from Washington Mutual!!
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177
Thanks. It's been a busy week :)
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Hi DAvid Cunard,
when I wrote the word socialism connected with Clinton I was being ironic. Should have put in inverted commas.
Others before on this thread had accused him thus.
Blue Paddy, I will reply to you when I have stopped laughing!!
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ref #140
For once we agree.
If voters have the desire for change, I can understand the Obama support.
But then since most americans agree that congress has done an even worse job, why don't we throw people like Redi, Pelosi and Frank out.
Frank was esposed by O'Rielley Thursday for the fraud most people in Mass know he is.
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Ms Marbles,
Au contraire! Those who are able to repay their debts will be able to do so with de-valued (by inflation) dollars, and those who cannot will simply default. Those who are prudent enough to be solvent will watch their savings shrink in real value and purchasing power....I am in the third category.
;-(
ed
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CartPonyBefore,
Thus completely consistent for McCain.Complain about this comment
# 179 David de J.
I believe that a lot of the GOP cynicism has its origins in the current lack of enthusiasm amongst the electorate for the party as a whole.
McCain only won the party nomination by default - and through over-use of his self appointed "maverick" status. A maverick is an outsider, an adventurer, and such a person is seldom really trusted by the party mainstream. In the UK we have seen plenty of them - e.g. Enoch Powell, Tony Benn, possibly even Michael Heseltine.
Because of this lack of core support, McCain's campaign started floundering and the opportunity was seized by a neocon faction who saw their opportunity in Sarah Palin. If a party is distracted by factional infighting, its core message get blurred by the necessity to keep all sides on board.
Of course, the Democrats had their own internal struggle in the epic battle between HRC and Obama which splintered the base.
The only victims of all this are the voters themselves. And, first of all the military quagmire, and then the ghastly financial mess that Bush has got the country into, mean that both candidates know that whoever wins has a herculean task on his hands. Each day that the situation worsens makes it more difficult for the candidates to be explicit about what they would do. They cannot put themselves in a situation where their words will come back to haunt them - and they cannot commit to a firm course of action until all the books have been revealed to them.
They'd better get hold of those books before they go through a shredder.
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Bill,
Possibly both, though I doubt the latter. Sorting out our relationship with the newly democratic Pakistani Regime must be a very high priority, but the capacity of the present crippled duck administration is extremely limited.The delay between election and taking office originated in the days of horseback communication and is in serious need of rationalisation. The Constitution is an incredibly wise and prudent instrument, including the provisions for amendment.
I am somewhat fearful of what various hotheads might perpetrate in the inter-regnum. Welcome back Mark; you have been missed. Any thoughts?
Salaam to all
ed
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184. MagicKirin:
"Frank was esposed by O'Rielley Thursday for the fraud most people in Mass know he is."
The other night, Anderson Cooper on CNN asked Frank whether he felt responsible. Frank used the excuse that the dems weren't in power. Cooper tried again. Frank denied any responsibility.
O'Reilly didn't let him get away with that. I only saw the clips. Looks like it was quite an exchange.
I wonder how the dems' "investigation" into this mortgage debacle wll handle Fannie Mae's role.
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161. David_Cunard:
"Lenders are equally at fault, tempting borrowers with teaser rates which promise no payment or no interest for X number of months - and the system is so well ingrained that few people think that owing so much is no sin - or problem."
Obama said that the middle class borrowed so much because the economy forced them to go into debt to stay afloat. No mention of the middle class' responsibility. They were "victims".
I find that really hard to stomach.
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189 and 190 Andrea
Whilst acknowledging that you have every right to be as partisan in this election as the next person, would you not admit that this administration has, in eight years, managed to turn an inherited government surplus into a huge unmanageable debt ?
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Mark Twain said that the United States was without a native criminal class- except for the Congress.
We have seen the spectacle of this group, anxious to adjourn, claiming great credit for rejecting Paulson?s initial $700 billion financial bail-out proposal. And then proudly claiming credit for approving a proposal of over $850 billion that includes subsidies for Puerto Rican rum makers, and vast tax reductions for the well-off, to be funded from debt.
As one solon explained, he could ?now return and watch his sons play high-school football?.
This is American politics and includes the technique known as the ?pork barrel?.
Where might countries that aspire for a democratic example turn?
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ref #189
Good question, Since Chris Dodd's sweetheat deal with Countrywide caused more damage to the country than Stevens home remodeling.
How come Dodd has been federally investigated?
Rhetorical question
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I really wanted to scream when I heard the speeches during the debate about the middle class not being able to buy a new car etc. due to a lack of liquidity, if the bill didn't pass.
About a year ago, here in South Africa, a new credit bill was passed to protect the new emerging black middle class from being mired in debt. At least they have the excuse of being new to the concept of almost unlimited credit and were being offered cards on the same scale as the UK and USA. The bill made the lenders legally responsible to ensure that the person was credit worthy, especially with regard to their income and existing financial commitments. Since then car sales have dropped 30% along with house and luxury goods such as new TVs etc. Higher, central bank driven interest rates have also added to demand for credit.
What is interesting is that our drop is almost identical to those in the USA and UK, but for the opposite reason. Because of the tighter credit and higher interest demand has dropped to levels that are within the means of the ordinary person. It is not a lack of liquidity per se that's causing this situation, but enforcing financial discipline on the consumer.
I would suggest a similar approach in the UK and USA, sought out the banks and forget about trying to stimulate artificial demand. Some industries, like realty, will suffer (please excuse me whilst I wipe away tear), but the medicine needs to be taken at both ends of the economy.
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188, Ed
Thanks. I'm not so worried about a crippled duck administration as a shredded duck administration: I hope the Dems have got those court injunctions ready to go for November 5 ... a date of curious co-incidence. Perhaps the interregnum problem could be solved by moving the elections to thanksgiving: after all it is a public holiday and the people could then cast their ballot without difficulty, cook dinner, and watch how the turkeys voted:
And as they rowed they sung by rote
A solemn and a cheerful note.
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Ooh, I've just re-read my post and apologise for some awful grammar and mistakes. Another case of "blogging in haste".
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David (194,6),
Message received and understood despite the minor grammatical slip-ups. Good advice, but I'm reminded of the proverbial snowball's outlook.
Seconded, none the less.
;-(
ed
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191. eightypercent:
"Whilst acknowledging that you have every right to be as partisan in this election as the next person, would you not admit that this administration has, in eight years, managed to turn an inherited government surplus into a huge unmanageable debt ? "
Yes, absolutely. Spending has gotten out of control.
I also believe that Clinton avoided spending on the military.
194. David_de_Jong:
"I really wanted to scream when I heard the speeches during the debate about the middle class not being able to buy a new car etc. due to a lack of liquidity, if the bill didn't pass. "
They were reacting to the small business owners who have to sell those cars. Since they vote, too, their calls were heeded.
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195:
The trouble is that Dubbya might be a lame duck, but despite appearances I think he does have some common sense. I would definitely be fearful if Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz still held office.
What disturbs me is the way in which the American military appears to have escaped from political control over the last eight years, and seems to have become used to acting autonomously and disregarding the relevant political international landscape.
Or paying too much attention to what they think is the prevailing political view they think is in favour in Washington at the time. Patreus is no exception, actually, any more than Wesley Clark was.
The irony of it all is that I know, after major operations, they spend a lot of time and effort on producing a 'book' called "Lessons Learned". Given what they are now doing across the border in Pakistan, either the wrong lessons have been learned, or they are being ignored.
(I've read one or two of those, and I'm pretty sure both those statements are true.)
I see that Robert Kagan's wife is still US ambassador to NATO. I wonder if she's changed her views 180 degrees like her husband?
Isn't it curious that hardly anyone mentions that American laissez-faire capitalism must have cost Americans far more than any kind of international terrorism? But then, Congress, I thought, did seem to be getting quite close to a "War on Wall Street". For a day or two I thought somebody was actually going to announce it.
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Bailout comment
;-)Or, if that link fails, it's archived here:
Chicken Little was right!
ed
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184. At 12:17pm on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #140
For once we agree.
If voters have the desire for change, I can understand the Obama support.
But then since most americans agree that congress has done an even worse job, why don't we throw people like Redi, Pelosi and Frank out.
Frank was esposed by O'Rielley Thursday for the fraud most people in Mass know he is."
Not the same interview. Frank deflated this windbag quite effectively.
Reilly frankly humiliates his whole country. He isno journalist and his hysterical manner and far right views make a mockeryof US reporting.
Of course the fact Frank is also jewish would not go down well with a far right fanatic like OReilly.
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200:
I've no idea what Chicken Little is, except I take it it's not on the menu at KFC. But in that article I read: "The average work week slipped to 33.6 hours."
The USA must now be the envy of the Socialists in France who introduced the 35-hour week. There must be more socialist good in capitalism than I thought.
(Except that, now I read on, earnings seem to have gone down commensurately. Ah, yes, that's more like the free-market capitalism I know and love . . .)
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Simon,
Have you checked the composition of the PNAC? Plenty of Jewish folk get along quite well within the rabid neocon claques.Complain about this comment
Peggy Noonan had it exactly right. Palin didn't debate, she performed. She played straight to the camera. There was no substance. If she had any appeal, it was to the republican choir. Characterization of what she presented as somehow superior should be considered an insult to any thinking person.
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I've just realised, pace the comments on "liberal' becoming subverted to "socialist' and so on, that "independent voter" actually means either "undecided" or "don't know", doesn't it?
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I know it's a forlorn hope, but can we make a distinction between 'Jewish' and 'Zionist' please?
I know the latter have been far more vociferous over the last few years, but the first is a religion, the second is a political ideology.
It's lax usage, like calling all Europeans "socialist" or (to all intents and purposes "Marxist") because most accept living in a welfare state.
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The fat lady ain't singing yet 12 Reasons Why McCain Can Still Win
Register and VOTE() ed
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re: 205 british-ish
Not really.
Although a majority of voters are registered for and/or tend to be aligned with a specific party and usually vote along party lines, a (growing) subset of voters register to vote without specifying a party preference, and tend to vote based on rationale other than the party designation of candidates.
These are the ones generally referred to as "independent voters".
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British-ish
I couldn't agree more about the importance of the distinction, but did you have a specific instance of recent or local (to this blog) mis-use in mind?Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. And being Jewish, for many Jews, has little to do with "religion".
Salaam/Shalom (after all, it's the same word!)
ed
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Palin is a disgrace to women everywhere. Her performance reminded me of a chorgraphed beauty pagent.
*Enter wave, wave smile
*Bend slightly and blow a kiss(!), play to the judges "Can I call you Joe" very cute, very sassy.
I wanted to vomit, I was yelling at the televison, don't speak to the Americian people like they are children Sarah, don't blow kisses Sarah STOP WINKING Sarah.
Could Hilary Clinton ever have received 18 million votes with that kind of dumbed down farce of a female politician?
It is clear to me now what the right has wanted in a female presidential contender. They wanted someone non-threatening, possibly deraged, that they could imagine bare foot and pregnant cooking dinner while her male betters do the real thinking. (Even her suit though nice, was a tad too tight to give just the right amount of sex appeal to Joe six pack) In short they wanted a puppet. The answers she gave did not come from that empty pretty little head of hers they were drilled in(drill,baby,drill?) Her answers sounded rehersed ,contrived and generally unnatural.
Joe Biden for his part was a statesmen and a gentlemen to Sarah barrauda's hell cat attacks which was a very effective manuver. Americans don't want to see a woman talked down to or disrespected even if she does that to her male opponent...makes sense? I would have liked see Hilary Clinton vs Sarah Palin. Hilary would have unhinged her jaw and swallowed her alive..one can dream. Overall Joe won the debate but it was'nt a show stopper for either side.
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re: #198 AndreainNY wrote:
"They were reacting to the small business owners who have to sell those cars. Since they vote, too, their calls were heeded."
I believe you would be even more correct if you were to amend that to ". . . Since they tend to contribute more money, their calls were heeded."
Also, your response to eightypercent failed to correct his error about the pre-Bush "surplus": there were no Clinton surpluses, merely gov't accounting gimmicks used since LBJ, for which any corporate officers would be fined/imprisoned if they tried to do the same.
Also, and for whatever it's worth: although I disagree with many of your positions, I find that you are one of the few posters here whose contributions tend to be presented reasonably and with a minimum of hyperbole.
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Let It Flow
Commentary on the bailout and the credit crunch for anyone interested. Please let me know if the link doesn't work, and I'll archive the article for a week or so...;-)
ed
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207:
What an unbelievable load of rubbish that article is.
I heard the 'most upwardly mobile Greek since Icarus' claiming the Huffington Post was the most serious and influential source of news and opinion on the internet a few weeks ago on BBC Radio. I didn't believe it then, either.
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#212, Ed, we basically have to build a whole new
banking system from scratch, who knows how
long this is going to take?
All the more reason not to vote for your favorite
candidate.
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Peter,
Could you expand upon this, please.Thanks
ed
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Must Watch
Watch
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It is with amazement, that here in America, where most of us know how to read and write, that ANYONE in this country would consider voting republican...and yet some still will. I apologize to my fellow global inhabitants, in advance, for any votes that this team gets.
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In local government in the US, a legislator must recuse him/herself whenever there is a vote on legislation in which the legislator is an interested party - such as when the legislation would benefit a benefactor of the legislator.
Senator Obama espouses to be "not of the old politics" - to be highly ethical and not part of the "culture of corruption".
Yet Senator Obama has received $11 million this year in campaign contributions from the investment and securities community (see opensecrets.org) - those who will be the direct beneficiaries of the $700 billion bail out. The Senator was an impassioned advocate of the legislation. He took the time before the cameras to make the plea. He took the time behind the cameras to "strong-arm" the Democratic legislators who opposed the legislation.
Yet he didn't take the time to inform America that he had taken $11 million from those very same companies who are to benefit directly from the legislation.
Senator McCain is hardly any better, having taken less money than Senator Obama from that industry, but still a substantial amount.
I fail to see how the good Senators' actions and failure to recuse themselves constitutes ethical behavior - even if in the federal government it is legal behavior.
Corruption must be defined in Washington as what the other guy does.
A footnote to this is the question regarding Lehman - why did the US government not save Lehman? Check the list of the top 100 corporate contributors to federal election campaigns (President, Senate and House) and note the conspicuous absence of Lehman as a contributor this year and over time in contrast with Goldman Sachs, for example, which is near the top of the list. You will also note that the two banks that have received subsidies to acquire troubled banks (Chase and Citi) are also on the list of 100 top contributors.
Probably all of this is just a coincidence and not related to the exchange of cash between the parties getting the benefits and the politicians like Senators Obama, Clinton and Dodd leading the legislation.
It will be interesting to see if the BBC has the courage to investigate and provide public coverage of this strange coincidence.
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re: 215 Ed Iglehart
There never was a "Clinton surplus". In effect, the claim relies on using two sets of books.
To a rational person, a surplus occurs when the total income exceeds total expenditure + additional accrued liabilities during a particular time interval. The "Clinton surplus" calculation was the result of counting the SS tax receipts as part of the income while ignoring the additional liability of the SS fund. Even Gore saw through this political BS claim, and tried to campaign on the SS "lock box" issue.
BTW, this "creative accounting" is not new: it was first used by LBJ to "prove" that the Viet Nam war wasn't that expensive, after all.
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G&R,
The alternative is Gramm & Co. & the rest of the rag bag of McCain's lobbyist/financiers. Ron Paul, who might be a better bet is unlikely in the extreme.You can't seriously be considering McShame & Co. ???
My gut instinct on the financial side is to bury the gold in the back yard and let the bar stewards fall. The wreckage might be fun to pick over after the dust clears....
;-O
ed
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re: #219 addendum
I read a detailed description of this in some economics article in some ostensibly non-political publication (can't remember which one) during the Clinton years.
I have been unable to find it via Google.
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218:
Oh, fancy that.
But it's the job of ABC or CBS or Fox (lapses into helpless giggling fit) not the BBC; they'd just be accused of interfering iin something that wasn;t there business. Although the Beeb did expose several election fiddles last time. Or the time before. I get them confused.
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Peter,
Thanks for the clarification. I presume that, as soon as LBJ was replaced by Nixon that the clever accounting device was abandoned by the much more fiscally responsible GOP, and only re-introduced by Clinton....? Is it in effect right now?
;-)
ed
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#220, Ed, if I were you, I wouldn't let anybody
know where you were burying your gold stash,
a gold digger might show up. Of course, in my
case, I don't mind if a gold digger shows up,
as long as she never finds out where the gold
is hidden...
In light of the increased power available to
males with money in the coming "New World Order,"
I believe that all divorce laws in California
should henceforth be changed so that female
partners are only entitled to food, clothing,
and shelter as long as there is joy in the
relationship.
Obama is still a question mark for me, I can't
read the guy. I don't know a single long-term
friend of his that he hasn't dissed.
Nonetheless, I like his proposed policies, even
though in the coming economic storm, I do not
believe that he will be able to deliver on anything.
The best that any politician will be able to do
for the next 4 years will be to prevent civil war
and put some kind of cushion under the middle
class so that the damage will be limited, and
the recovery not unnecessarily delayed.
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#167.Cartponybefore: "Isn't post #164 race-baiting at its most naked? How does this guy 'Cunard' get away with it? Shameful on the part of the BBC moderators."
From his other posts it would appear that the writer does not live in the USA and is unaware of the tensions which still exist between various communities. The original verdict in the Simpson case was rendered by an all-Black jury after a very short deliberation and generally considered to be based, not on the evidence, but on the colour of his skin. The subsequent civil judgement found him guilty of the 'wrongful death' of his wife and Ron Goldman.
It doesn't take much to set off rioting in urban, 'inner city' areas where boredom, lack of education, drugs and alcohol can set off a chain reaction. Although the circumstances were different, one only has to see the results of the Rodney King incident here in Los Angeles or more recently in Oldham (UK). One can only hope that Simpson is no longer seen as an American - and Black - American "hero" or sports icon. But nevertheless, it could be a touchy situation, much as it might be if Mr Obama should ever be seen to be the victim of fraudulent voting or so close a result that it might be manipulated.
And thanks #165 and #168 for understanding the original post.
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re: #222 british-ish wrote:
"But it's the job of ABC or CBS or Fox . . . not the BBC . . ."
Agree completely.
However, I believe the original poster made the statement based on his (I believe correct) expectation that the mainstream US media would never be willing to perform a thorough and unbiased exposé of the inherent corruption of the US system.
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re: #223 Ed Iglehart
Quite frankly, I don't know, but I expect that the gov't uses any and all "creative accounting" gimmicks it can get away with, independent of political party - honor among thieves, and all that.
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216, galeooo.
Thanks. Even Alaska is laughing at her.
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ref #217
This is the typical moonbat response. Obama messiah, republican's evil.
You don't have to apologize for having a freely contested election.
If you prefer an election where only one canidate should be allowed to win, I suggest you emigrate to North Korea or Venezuela.
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"I am not talking about rich people, but those who have lived within their means."
who decides what means are marbles.
you don't give a flying one about under paying and labour laws in the US. the no notice no holiday no union no wage increase by employers.
get out of your corperate office world and smell the trashcans.
you are a snob sometimes.
People tryin to pay off while the MORTEgage holders up sell it to someone else who ups the interest got people who are innocent. Hope all your stocks collapse.
Don't call me grumpy when your permanently in a grump.
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206, british-ish.
"I know it's a forlorn hope, but can we make a distinction between 'Jewish' and 'Zionist' please?"
Zionism was a movement that began in Russia towards the end of the 19th century. It was not religious in nature. In fact, zionists felt repressed in their religious Jewish communities.
The early kibbutsim were zionists. They were antireligious and even raised pigs. Obviously not all Jews are zionists. The non-religious Jews of Israel resent the influence of Orthodox Jews in the coalition government.
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75. At 3:56pm on 03 Oct 2008, realist76 wrote:
I'm embarrassed for my country. How can we pretend that Palin did a good job on the debate only because she didn't fail. Nothing she said was of real substance. All she did was try and manipulate people with emotional stories that might appeal to people that the Republicans have proven they don't care for. Stop winking at the camera lady, you aren't my friend. It's not professional. It's time that someone who behaves like a world leader to lead again. Someone who knows the policy(and didn't just cram for the debate memorizing empty facts) and has seen more of the world. Palin is a mockery of intelligent women in the world and perhaps a worse mockery of our government than even George Bush's mess.
---------------------------------------------
Well put wish I was so polite.
Not
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Not refers to polite comment by was spot on.
Palin is an insult to all primates
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82. At 4:48pm on 03 Oct 2008, bluepaddy13 wrote:
What everyone seems to ignore by just going after Palin, is the fact Biden LIED more than Palin did, OK so he did it in a more convincing way, having been idling in the senate 36 years that is not a huge surprise. He consistently lied last night and I was dissappointed Sarah did not tackle him more for it, his saying McCain voted 20 times against bills for alternative energy sources is downright misleading, McCain voted against the Millions of dollars of pork added on to those bills, McCAIN never voting on a bill loaded with pork shows INTEGRITY which is more than you can say for obama or biden.
WHAT?
any examples and get real. bills have more than one thing in them. I would vote against a bill that had encouragement for alternative energy if it also included a program to wipe out polar bears. to be extreme .
Were those the same bills that had oil wells offthe oregon coast waiting for an earthwake or tsunami?
GOP IS FOR FAILURES
Greedy Old Politics
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131. At 11:21pm on 03 Oct 2008, jrfouch wrote:
Oh glorious day,
Im proud that my state always does its part to fight Bible n' Guns demagogues such as W. and Palin.
Here in Michigan, where the economy is tanking, we dont fall for that kind of stuff.
Obama 08
Jonathan, Detroit, Michigan
------------------------------------------------
Good on ya.
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GOP Strategists Whisper Fears Of Greater Losses in November
Don't get complacent. Register and vote!Is this "managing expectations"?
;-)
ed
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May I recommend to all students of American elections (and especially this one) an article by the wonderful Jonathan Raban called "Blessed are the Unblinking" and published in the London Review of Books.
It can be found over on The Daily Dish, posted today at 10.17 a.m.
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I think Roger Ebert's say on the debate is quite interesting.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2008/10/you_didnt_ask_me_about_the_deb.html
As he says the debate has morphed into a strange piece of theatre. Something must be done about this shambolic feign of democracy.
For instance, why is a "journalist" moderating this debate? In reality they are merely sycophantic mouth pieces that do not push for answers. Why not a professor of politics? Surely they would ask the right questions. An international leader? They would have a vested interest in squeezing the truth out of them. How about a scientist? An entrepreneur? Even foreign journalists like Justin Webb. Or someone as caustic and pressing as Noam Chomsky.
Regardless, it is very apparent and appalling and disgraceful that American journalists aren't footing the bill.
Also, Why not penalize the debaters for not answering questions or participating in a dynamic debate?
I was very much looking forward to this stage of the election. When the candidates are finally meant to display some iota of substance. Especially since both McCain and Obama were crying for a genuine contest settled by discussion and policy.
But then, I realized that nothing has changed, Unless, of course, you count my respect for our American system of democracy.
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sorry marbles you are quite lovely sometimes but really must learn compassion.
As I do too.
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Ref 211
"...there were no Clinton surpluses, merely gov't accounting gimmicks used since LBJ, for which any corporate officers would be fined/imprisoned if they tried to do the same."
Not only were the Clinton surpluses legitimate and unprecedented in modern times, but he also stopped the practice of raiding the Social Security trust fund, a common practice used since the Reagan years to make the deficits look more acceptable.
In fact, the Republican controlled Congress attributed the surpluses to the stewardship of Alan Greenspan, the same gentleman who some accuse for the fiscal debacle of the Bush II years, and some tried to credit the Republican Congress for the surpluses - while condemning Clinton for the tax increases and "irresponsible" reductions in the size of government that contributed to the supluses. That Congress was the same one that approved every spending bill submitted during the first six years of the Bush II Administration, which resulted in doubling the national debt in 8 short years.
I think W's role in addressing hunger and disease in Africa deserves credit, I believe he got it right on immigration and, frankly, I believe he showed courage when he decided to submit a bailout plan to avert the collapse of our financial institutions and our economy, but trying to portray Bush II as a fiscal conservative is absurd.
His out of control spending, going to war without raising taxes, and the large tax reductions for the top 2% of our population are the main reason for the fiscal and economic problems we are now having.
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229, Ubermensch.
Rhat you would champion an ignorant, vulgar woman gives me an insight into your nature.
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In my opinion, Sarah Palin exceeded expectations and did not make the anticipated devastating mistakes that would have doomed McCain's campaign.
Yes, her answers were clearly memorized and scripted, she avoided answering several questions, she tried too hard to look folksy, but she didn't do that bad considering how unprepared she is for the job.
As for Florida being competitive, judging by my personal polling system (looking for signs on cars and lanws) I would say McCain has a solid lead in Central Florida. I feel like a true minority when I drive around with my Obama sign.
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230, Jack.
You are making wild assumptions. Just because I have the ability to reason does not mean that I am rich. In fact we lost everything in the revolution. But we did not lose our intellects.
I think that people who spend more than they can afford are foolish. Both rich and poor do this. Debt means loss of freedom, and to me the most important thing in life is freedom.
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Guns # 224
I have several times tried to post the following thought and whilst I realise that I may have on-line rotten apples thrown at me for my idea, I keep finding that even my pc won't accept it ! Last try.
Guns' misgivings about Obama remind me that both Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair were underestimated and more or less unknown by the electorate when they won office. Margaret Thatcher was considered to be a woman in a man's world, and Blair was thought to be an untested lightweight.
Whilst both carried out policies which I deeply opposed, it is undeniable that each revealed hidden steel and each breathed new life into a moribund country and economy. Both led an opposition into power when the administration was tired and lifeless.
Both were eventually turfed out by colleagues and country who had had enough of them - but they were the right person, for the right job at the right time.
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Re 223 and 226
Unlike ABC (owned by Disney), CBS, and NBC (owned by GE), the BBC (unless I'm mistaken) is not a publicly traded company dependent upon Goldman Sachs and friends for underwriting, stock ratings, etc. Unlike Fox (once again unless I'm mistaken), the BBC isn't dependent on advertising revenue from those same campaign contributors and bailout beneficiaries.
226 - peterm99 - is correct in his assumption that I don't believe that the US mainstream media will raise this issue.
For Fox it is similar to the issue of Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's alleged connections to Senator Obama. I don't expect Fox to report or investigate the connection when the Prince owns over 5% of News Corporation (Fox) - even though the Prince has given significant funding to Muslim charities in the US including those whose leaders have been indicted on terrorism-related charges.
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ref #231
The Zionist movement actually started in Germany and then spread to Russia and the rest of Western Europe and eventually U.S
I can't post the full history.
But there were both religous and secular Jews involved and like any other movement vast philosophical differences
Herzel the first leader was a non observant Jew for most of his life.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re: #240 DominickVila wrote:
"Not only were the Clinton surpluses legitimate and unprecedented in modern times, but he also stopped the practice of raiding the Social Security trust fund, a common practice used since the Reagan years to make the deficits look more acceptable."
This directly conflicts with an article I read about budget shenanigans many years ago.
I'd appreciate a source for your statement if you can provide one.
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149, AndreainNY wrote:
"Michael Totten's blogging from the Middle East has usually been a very good read, especially if you're interested in events on the ground during war."
________
I only read the first page, but it seems to me he has most of his facts backwards, and is running some sort of anti-Obama thing.
US soldiers in Iraq died and still die for nothing, not even the US gov. dared to call it a major battleground against Al-Quaeda.
Which is only one out of many groups to have taken the opportunity to fight over there .
Officially, it's an unspecified 'War on Terror', but only after WMD, terrorist links and removing dictatorship failed to convince anyone.
Granted, Biden made a little mistake re. Lebanon, but was still basically on top of it.
________
________
159, allmymarbles:
"I am not talking about rich people, but those who have lived within their means.??I brought up my children to keep a zero balance on credit cards."
______
I agree to a point; making every-day purchase decision based on available credit is beyond stupid, and many US Americans are guilty.
However, at the same time there seem to be many US Americans working more than one job, just to make ends meet.
At least that's what I hear; if this is true, there is something fundamentally wrong with the economic and social system.
If a country can't provide job security, sufficient minimum wages and support for those in difficult circumstances - single parents, the disabled, elderly etc. , there might be something off.
________
________
190, AndreainNY:
"Obama said that the middle class borrowed so much because the economy forced them to go into debt to stay afloat. No mention of the middle class' responsibility. They were "victims". ??I find that really hard to stomach.?"
________
Face it: he's running for president, he can't call part of the electorate stupid.
Also, what does keep the middle class 'afloat' in other countries, what does create a solid middle class to begin with ?
Strong unions, regulations, control of health care, pensions, the credit and banking system.
In other words, 'big' government, even 'socialism' (gasp!) .
All that talk about 'Joe 6pack, 'Mainstreet', 'Middle America' , while the US economy is still based on 'trickle through' (aka. bread crumbs) principles.
He can't say that either, now can he ?
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Sorry but I don't have the time to surf the net looking for evidence that should have been evident to anyone that was awake in the 1990s when we enjoyed years of economic growth, unprecedented job creation, considerable reductions in the size of government, spending reductions in all government programs - except for entitlements - and the resulting budget surpluses.
I don't know what article you read on this subject, but I suggest you read a few more. As for me, I worked in a government agency and had to struggle with the budget cuts that prevailed in the Clinton era, many of which were championed by Al Gore. Clinton can be blamed for many things, fiscal irresponsibility is not one of them.
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Ref 245
"even though the Prince has given significant funding to Muslim charities in the US including those whose leaders have been indicted on terrorism-related charges."
If one of the objectives of the Iraq war was to attract Al Qaeda terrorists and fight them on their turf rather than ours, we should have invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia, the country of origin of most of the terrorists that carried out the 9/11 attack, the planners of that nefarious act, and its financiers.
Instead, the Bush Administration declared that country a "Most Favored Nation" for trade purposes in exchange for lucrative oil and construction contracts, and we consider the House of Saud a friendly ally on the war on terror!
For some reason Judas comes to mind...
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re: #250 DominickVila
regarding Clinton surpluses:
Upon review of actual US national debt numbers, it is apparent that the last time there occurred a year to year decrease was in the Kennedy administration. Even in Clinton's best year, the national debt actually increased by roughly $18 billion.
Thus, any assertion that he had _real_ surpluses, i.e., not as a result of budgetary shenanigans, is obviously contrafactual.
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230, Jack.
I learned about money from those who have it. The summers between college semesters I worked for members of the 400 - very old money.
Someone said that any fool can make money but it takes a genius to hold on to it. Believe me, those guys knew how to hold on to it - and how to get the most out of it. Whenever I have a decision to make that involves money, I tell myself to "think like a Rockefeller."
So don't be thinking I was born to privilege. I have worked all my life and am still at it.
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ref #241
As usual Marbles you miss the point.
1. I was responding to the intolerance of the poster who seems to feel voting Republican is a crime. T%hat kind of thinking belongs in Dictator Hugo and Kim Jong country
2. I am supporting McCain as I assume you are Obama.
3. Criticize Palin's qualifications and inteliigence all you want but why is she vulgar? Because she hunts and likes Moose stew
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"I think that people who spend more than they can afford are foolish. Both rich and poor do this. Debt means loss of freedom, and to me the most important thing in life is freedom."
marbles
yea marbles I do agree.
But then I think it should have been left well alone.
the poorest will not benefit .
they will just get poorer.
Many really have little choice.
The choices is rubbish or trash.
They may not have had the educational background that you have. Were you educated here in the states?
Some of these people actually think GW bush was good for america. How is someone like that meant to be able to understand complicated finances?
Tell me if you left Iran during the revolution were you a child back then or were you able to use the education and jobs you had previous to further your career after the revolution in another country?
I am no debtor either and live within my means(little) I work hard get rewarded enough to allow me to pursue my passion and have made a not bad living (for me) so am generally not bad off.I made those choices have no Kids conceived when living with my parents who wouldn't let an abortion, but they are out there.
Doesn't matter that 5 years later they love their kid but think "why so early?"
and their Boss under pays them and their country undereducated them.
But they should be allowed to be ripped off by banks behaving badly.
Capitalism is a snake oil sales man.
At least communism had some principle behind it other than the adoration of greed.
the Greed that raised people interest rates ridiculously , the Credit in the stores to get savings .
Now I do agree that americans credit love is soo soo wrong but then america is a fantasy land, look at palin, the economy ,the Mc Criminally insane for picking that witch campaign.
America lives on fantasy freedom is comparative and america is only so free.
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Ref 252
I suggest you examine the Congressional Budget Office records if you are truly interested in unbiased evidence of what transpired during the Clinton years.
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More personal remarks here about Palin from the ever-hateful left. I thought they wanted more substance?
Speaking of left-wing hate, you've got to be pretty hateful to blow people up - which is what William Ayers did in the US in the '60s.
"Who?" I hear you cry? Yes. You may not have heard much about him from the Mainstream Media. He's a friend of Obama. Helped launched his first bid for office, in fact. Oh, and ran a multi-million dollar organisation with him. (Funny. Obama doesn't mention this in either of his memoirs.)
Of course, if John McCain had long associations with an unrepentant terrorist, I GUARANTEE you everybody would know his name. The media would have killed McCain over it. But they will overlook even the most grotesque flaws in Obama's character because he's handsome and, most importantly, left wing.
Read more here:
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/overseasballot/blog/2008/10/04/obama_and_the_bomber
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Ref 252
The website below has general information about the Clinton years, not only regarding the budget surpluses - which were very real indeed - but debt reduction, and significant reductions in the size of government. Again, the best sources for information on budget matters are the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/00Budget/I_web_budget_summary.html
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254. At 10:50pm on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #241
As usual Marbles you miss the point.
1. I was responding to the intolerance of the poster who seems to feel voting Republican is a crime. T%hat kind of thinking belongs in Dictator Hugo and Kim Jong country
2. I am supporting McCain as I assume you are Obama.
3. Criticize Palin's qualifications and inteliigence all you want but why is she vulgar? Because she hunts and likes Moose stew
--------------------------------------------------
Majik marbles misses very few points but you miss them all.
1 voting for hitler would have been a crime in my books.
Mc Cain is not far off when it comes to provoking war,Palin worse.
Not a crime but certainly someone without conscience .To vote for a vacuous bim with no ability to run even a small town without bankrupting it, and the idiot that put her in that position out of spite . To hate Obama with such a vengance when it is not him that has been dividing the country.You and the GOP have "United we stand"
"Divided we fall", but Mc Cain divides so well. and palin better.
It is not Obama that tried this tactic. but you think OK all's fair, I like this Girl she's cute.
2 marbles choice but it would seem you get something right for once.
3 Vulgar?
You wonder she is vulgar.
She is a high school cheer leader raised to the point of being able to lead the country. No Qualification other than she managed to use whatever dodgy means to get ahead.
Vacuous is a compliment to any woman that winks and uses their position as a woman in a debate, she could have taken her top off. that would have got a few more Joes on board, I for one was surprised she didn't by the end of that debate.
She cannot, not will not but cannot answer the question.
Every Woman I have met thinks she is an evil (back to canines) . She has no track record for success and she makes no offer other than the ability to try to belittle with the I'm more of a celeb than you rubbish.
Yes the GOP accused Obama of being too popular, but he was popular for what he was trying to do. She is popular for being"spunky".
No other ability. no other talent, no knowlage, NOTHING
And you wonder why that is Vulgar.
BECAUSE IT IS INSULTING TO EVERY OTHER SENATOR,CONGRESSMAN/WOMAN , PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA.
IT MAKE THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD A JOKE.
IT REDUCES THE POSITION OF LEADER OF AMERICA TO A BAKE SALE AMERICAL IDOL TAILGATE CHUGGER.
IT INSULTS WOMAN.
(look pretty thats all that matters)
IT SAYS ALL YOU CARE OF IS TO SAY GOP GOP GOP.
Which is no different from a bunch of brainwashed lemmings.
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254, Ubermensch.
If you have been reading my posts you will know that I am not a Democrat, but an independent. I choose, in this election, to vote for Obama, who happens to be a Democrat. I also voted for Reagan, who happened to be a Republican, and I voted twice for Ross Perot, who was a third-party candidate.
So you can give up characterizing me as a yellow dog Democrat. You on the other hand will vote Republican, even if a nincompoop like Palin is running.
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253 marble I know you work, my point is if you did not meet those you met and learn those lessons .
And collage was free or cheaper than it is now right?
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Ref 255
"Some of these people actually think GW bush was good for america."
Not only there are a lot of people that still consider President Bush a savior, but many support his legacy - both domestic and international - to the point that they plan to vote for McCain/Palin hoping it will continue for at least four more years.
Today, when I was on my way home after a few hours of fishing with my grandsons I saw a car covered with American flags...and pictures of Sarah Palin taped all over the car!
Frankly, I understand why many people support McCain, he has demonstrated his patriotism and he does have a good and very moderate Congressional record, but I can not believe people are actually impressed with Sarah Palin.
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255, Jack.
"They may not have had the educational background that you have. Were you educated here in the states?"
Yes, but I paid for it myself, and it was the days before student loans.
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McCain and Ghetto Mama should be out of the race completely.
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"254. At 10:50pm on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #241
As usual Marbles you miss the point.
1. I was responding to the intolerance of the poster who seems to feel voting Republican is a crime. T%hat kind of thinking belongs in Dictator Hugo"
Who is dictator Hugo? Not the democractically elected president of venezuela?
What were you saying about intolerance again?
That any world leader who is not far right is a dictator?
3. Criticize Palin's qualifications and inteliigence all you want but why is she vulgar? Because she hunts and likes Moose stew
.
Look up the term. She is vulgar because she is quite deliberately crude in manner and experession.
Her expressions etc are thought out contrivances - like her supposed love of moose stew.
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"257. At 11:14pm on 04 Oct 2008, OverseasBallot wrote:
More personal remarks here about Palin from the ever-hateful left. I thought they wanted more substance?"
Oh dear ever hatefull, like attacking Obama's wife?
"Speaking of left-wing hate, you've got to be pretty hateful to blow people up - which is what William Ayers did in the US in the '60s."
Did he? Can we see the evidence for that? He is a professor of English is he not?
No proof oh dear sounds like a hateful slander
""Who?" I hear you cry? Yes. You may not have heard much about him from the Mainstream Media. He's a friend of Obama. Helped launched his first bid for office, in fact. Oh, and ran a multi-million dollar organisation with him. (Funny. Obama doesn't mention this in either of his memoirs.)"
So a professor of Engliah and Obama were casual friends, many people helped Obama launch his career including his mother.
"Of course, if John McCain had long associations with an unrepentant terrorist, I GUARANTEE you everybody would know his name. The media would have killed McCain over it. But they will overlook even the most grotesque flaws in Obama's character because he's handsome and, most importantly, left wing."
Yes and as we saw with the last election no one ever questions Democractic candidates -or hires a bunch of mercenaries to slander them.
McCain has been let off too lightly his past needs far more scrutiny
Read more here:
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/overseasballot/blog/2008/10/04/obama_and_the_bomber
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"246. At 9:23pm on 04 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #231
The Zionist movement actually started in Germany and then spread to Russia and the rest of Western Europe and eventually U.S"
Yes and that should tell you a lot. Germans are not known for their tolerance of Semites and their colonial history is worse than Britain's
I can't post the full history.
But there were both religous and secular Jews involved and like any other movement vast philosophical differences"
All of whom were fully soaked in ideas of european racial superiority and imperialism.
"Herzel the first leader was a non observant Jew for most of his life."
No such thing, judaism is a religion. But what Herzl was was a convinced imperialist, like practically every other influentiall european he assumed only the white "races" had a right to rule.
It never really occured to him or all the other Zionists that native peoples had any real "rights".
It is not therefore suprising to learn that zionism and Afrikaanerdom grew up at about the same time.
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Speaking of left-wing hate, you've got to be pretty hateful to blow people up - which is what William Ayers did in the US in the '60s.
which plonker said this?
hateful. Oh you were one that supported killing so many thousand Iraqis because they were arabs and the disagreed with america.
This was a guy who would be beaten and killed in the streets of many towns in the south and no-one would have stood trial.(well not till the statutes of limitations was up).
This was the guy told to sit at the back of the bus.
or get out of the bar, told not to get upitty if he answered back.
the sameone called N by all the white folk at the time who were just so nice to black people.
Why they even wore hoods so as not to scare their lynching victims(sorry) but to say Ayres is a terrorist when you're white and your people beat the hell out of and enslaved his is a bit like supporting Israel against the palistinians.
And while there are people like you in america then good luck at not having more bombers.
(BTW tim MC Vai was a white guy and a republican and I think as such it should be illegal (plop majerkfin) to be a republican.
OH YOUR A RACIST
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I still think Hillary is the best choice for president. Obama is weak and lacks substance. But Obama is smart enough to pick Biden. I watched the debate last night and was very impressed with Biden. He was clear, organized and very gentleman like. If it were Hillary there, Pelin wouldn't get off the stage one full piece. I simply could not understand Pelin's answers. Later, I read the transcripts on NYT but still could not understand what she tried to say. Shi is an insult to the Americans, period.
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simon keep at the racists even if others think you wrong they are deluded obviously.
this whole thing about the "Black " bombers verses the so tollerent White society is BULL.
If them same skin coloured people as me(whiteish) were to have faced the treats and persecutionb of the 60's they would have been way more violent from the evidence I see.
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ps I do think Justin suffers from a condescending British school boys version of racism.
Not hostile but more like the institutional racism that persist, but on a personal level.
He has not said a Good word about Obama yet.
But did love Hillery.
And was betting for Mc Cain ( but I find it hard to believe he would vote for Mc Cain).
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I was completely shocked by how many people thought Sarah Palin did really well during the debate. I am glad to see that the majority thought Biden won, but it's still scary how many people were sucked in by the show that Palin put on...and what a show!
All that winking and 'gosh darn it' and 'I'm just a hockey mom' stuff is laid on so thick it's disgusting. This is McCain at his worst...he wants to win no matter what, and he is using Sarah Palin in the process.
That she has aspirations to Presidency is clear. To quote a reporter 'if the Republicans win she is just one 72 year old's heartbeat away from the presidency, and if that doesn't scare you, it should'. It chills me to the bone to think that she could end up in that role.
Americans are (rightly) fed up with Washington...this I understand. The situation here is dire, and it is getting worse day by day...they feel they can't trust the government anymore. The fact that she is not a 'Washington insider' is clearly her appeal. What people don't realize is that she is anything but the average mother...how many other mothers are jetting around the country in private planes giving speeches and going on national TV debates etc? That's not to say that she can't empathize with the 'average Joe' (if there is such a thing), but it does mean that she isn't one of them. Her life is different, and people need to recognize that. The idea that she is just 'one of them' [average Joe] is completely ridiculous.
I'm not sure how long she can carry on blowing smoke like this before more people begin to realize the seriousness of this situation. There is no substance behind the vacuous smile and winking eye...it is all just a show and the Americans who vote for McCain will sorely regret their decision.
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257:
Just a minute. This is totally immoral and unscrupulous.
OverseasBallot directs us to what may be thought of by the unwary as an article written for, or published by, the Daily Telegraph, when in fact it apparently points to his own blog, merely hosted by the Telegraph.
This is also, in my view, outrageous behaviour, an attempt to gain respectability by the misuse of a reputable British newspaper. Even if it is one with whose political stance I disagree with.
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262. At 11:38pm on 04 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
Ref 255
Dominick I kinda feel the same way.
Mc Cain has ruined his record with this pick .
before this I was not in fear , just worried. but Palin near the red button is too scary accept.
If america falls for this then what does that say.
Funny in that on that same car you mention there was probably a "united we stand " .
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wow the tory graph article linked by simon(why?) 266 is a perfect example of this institutional racism that I refer to earlier.
People being violently subjugated by others actually have a right to get violent back.
americans wish to own guns for self protection but would condemn a black if they ever used one.
Again if you think it is wrong to oppose people killing you
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257;266:
It may well be, of course that 'the media' doesn't examine or publicise these claims because they have no substance.
I have read Ms Palin's attack of today on Mr Obama on those very grounds on CNN: "Our opponent though, is someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."
"Riot and bomb conspiracy charges against Ayers were dropped in 1974," CNN adds. I presume that line would be an example to Ms Palin of the media 'filter' she dislikes.
Were she in Britain, I think she would very soon be having to defend herself in court in a libel action.
It has always seemed to me that it is the right which has always engendered hatred and very frequently resorted to it.
That is a very cheap attack, and one that McCain really ought to repudiate.
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re: #258 DominickVila
The link you cited (http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/00Budget/I_web_budget_summary.html) is merely the budget _submitted_ by Clinton, not the one actually implemented - heck, even GWB _submitted_ at least one balanced budget, and we all know how that turned out. ;-)
I got federal debt info from (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/pdf/hist.pdf) and crosschecked with several pages at (http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm), and it appears that the White House/OMB data is consistent with the US Treasury data.
I also checked out CBO data, and found them to be internally inconsistent: often, they don't even add up correctly. Further exploration an various sites leads me to the conclusion that they treat various items differently. As one source stated: while the CBO may be non-partisan, that does not mean the CBO is non-political or that their numbers are honest or transparent.
Anyway, the fact that BOTH the US Treasury and the OMB data show consistent increases in annual US gov't debt throughout the Clinton administration, confirms (at least to me) that any Clinton "surpluses" are artifacts of creative accounting.
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No wonder it is a Democratic strong hold. All the jobs losses these last eight years in the car industry, a big part of Michigan, no one in their right mind living there will vote Republican.
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Ref 277
Assuming the budget surpluses of the Clinton years were bogus because the national debt continued to increase slightly ignores the reality that we are paying approximately $200B a year in interest on the debt. Since the interest is being paid with borrowed money, or by printing more money, which further devalues our currency - the national debt increases accordingly.
Obviously, the increases would have been much greater if instead of surpluses we had had deficits. As for the integrity of the CBO, I had never heard anyone questioned it before.
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275:
It is not a link to the Daily Telegraph, nor a link to any report or opinion piece in that newspaper, nor any summary or precis of one that has ever appeared in the Daily Telegraph.
It is a link to just what the contributor wrote here: OverseasBallot's ownblog, hosted by the Daily Telegraph online.
It is, in my view, a deliberate attempt at deception.
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I suppose the "palling around with terrorists" accusation is another example of the virtues of small town middle-America politicking?
It's reminiscent of the very worst of British election hustings in the nineteenth century before the secret ballot was introduced.
So will Governor Palin will soon be enhancing her reputation even more by referring to "Hussein Obama", suggesting he is a secret Muslim, and all the other stuff we have seen repeated ad nauseam here?
Good lord, it's fortunate she (nor her minders) has probably never heard of, much less read, Régis Debray, let alone La Societé du Spectacle or the French would be in for a bite from her snappy little Peke teeth.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Speaking of left-wing hate, you've got to be pretty hateful to blow people up - which is what William Ayers did in the US in the '60s."
the mods did not like me calling whoever said this a racist .
despite the fact that whoever said this is ignoring the times in America when this happened.
the times people got lynched, dragged behind cars(oh thats recently right). denied entry to a bar, kicked to the back of buses, told to say sir when speaking to a white person, raped with no way of accusing attackers, put in jail and "lost" by the system, attacked by cops for demonstrating.
told they could have a vote but barred from doing so.but legally he didn't, though he had cause.
White america has never done nothing to deserve any blacks wanting to blow their racist asses up, did they.
And they did not criminally mistreat a race because they were hateful? Right
Overseasracist.
Mods he /she raised the issue of ayres and this comment goes to all that bring up ayres, Majerkin and Ninny, MA and Overseas.
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282:
You're welcome. It confused me at first too, but even I couldn't believe the Torygraph's subs or editor would let something like that through.
It's rather new to me, but I suppose it's something we'll see more of: someone writing a piece in one place online, quoting it as a source somewhere else, and so on and on in circles until people come to believe it really did start off in an authoritative place. . . .
He might have got away with it, too.
Perhaps this is a part of the new Republican tactics that the CNN report on Plain's "palling with terrorists" accusation mentioned. But I doubt if even the Telegraph will be very happy about being (mis)used like that.
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Dear BBC: here I am, trying to be sophisticated and putting the accent over the right letters in the French words, and they come out as silly diamonds. Please fix your software. We are in the European Union, you know.
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#272. TiredAngel: "I was completely shocked by how many people thought Sarah Palin did really well during the debate . . . All that winking and 'gosh darn it' and 'I'm just a hockey mom' stuff is laid on so thick it's disgusting."
She played well to middle America (where's SamTyler1969?) who do like that kind of folksiness. The 'shout-out' to her kids and their classmates was the human touch, making her "one of us", as was the statement that she wasn't going to answer the questions but rather address the American people. Beyond the great urban areas, there are still families who think 'jamming' (not the musical variety) is a necessity and that going to church, in one's best, on a Sunday is important. It's easy to dismiss what many here would dismiss as less-sophisticated Americans. Nevertheless, they do have a vote and Mrs Palin was, I believe, aiming directly at these "less privileged" members of society. Without meaning to appear snobbish, I expect that her audience watches the reality shows, Fox News and actually buys the National Enquirer - someone has to or it would not be in business.
Much as I disagree with everything she would stand for, I think it was a shrewd move to play up this aspect of her personality as a contrast to the older and professional politician which was so obviously Joe Biden. As entertainment goes, she had a good hand - and when she eventually returns to Alaska in November, I feel sure there will be a great many offers of television work. Like Hillary Clinton, win or lose, we haven't seen the last of her.
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267, Simon21:
Yes and that should tell you a lot. Germans are not known for their tolerance of Semites and their colonial history is worse than Britain's
I can't post the full history.
________
Now hold on just a minute.
You can't post the full history ? Of course you can't, you don't know anything about it.
Anti-Semitism has been an issue since mediaeval times, and has been used by political leaders for their purposes ever since.
We are talking the German Nazi regime here, of course, which appears to be what you base your assumptions on.
At the time, it just so happened, that extreme right-wing, anti-semitic parties had a very strong influence all over Europe, namely Germany, Italy, France, Poland, the USSR and the UK.
In the US, a great part of the public and quite a few opinion leaders were very much pro-Nazi, and openly anti-semitic.
The German people voted the Nazi party into power, so did the Italians (France came close), the rest is sad history.
However, even though the Holocaust is of German making, anti-semitism is not a German invention (nor is genozide).
I actually very much doubt that anti-semitism has been any stronger in the German public from 1933-45 than in the countries mentioned above.
There is, of course, no way denying the German's responsibility for the Holocaust.
As for Germany's colonial history; there is not much of a history to begin with, and to my knowledge the Krauts actually tended to treat the natives better than other colonial powers, for what it is worth.
To say the German short-lived 'colonialism' was worse than others, that's utter nonsense.
As it ended after WW I, it can not even be blamed for consequences in our times , as seen all over Africa, the Middle East and South-East Asia.
Try the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Japan.
The US colonialism, which isn't officially appreciated as such, managed to mess up the whole of South and Central America to this day, and I wouldn't know how anyone could deny it.
Add proxy wars in Africa and the Middle East, globally supporting right wing dictatorships, and then that little venture in Iraq...
Last time I checked, there were still glass houses, so better don't try accusing us Germans of colonialism, of all things.
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This is my first post. I do not know what all the hype about Obama is all about! The only change i see is his skin colour. I am black by the way. every four years America go throught this same race and the talks are the same. We will do this and that that. But when they get in the oval office it business usual. People forgot the last two terms when Mr. Bush was elected as presidents. The statistic were agianst Him. The polls and propergander was high yet Mr. Bush won. The 1st and even a second term. People do not believe the hype. Think please! and do not be fooled by polls and bias networks. If one thing american talk shows tell me is that me talk just as much as women.
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Can anyone explain are posts on Sarah Palin moderated or removed, but messages accusing Obama of ties with terrorists are permitted?
I realize that comments based on unsubstantiated media reports are inappropriate, and may even have legal implications, but why does the BBC allow posts that accuse a presidential candidate of criminal behavior when there is no evidence of guilt?
Bill Ayers is, indeed, a very controversial figure who most of us would avoid at all cost, but he has not been charged with terrorism, has not served a prison sentence because of terrorist-related activities, and he is actually a highly regarded English professor at the University of Illinois in Chicago.
Most importantly, the fact that Obama, and others, sat on the same non-profit boards as Ayers does not make them accomplices or even a sympathizers of the radical opinions that Ayers espouses.
Perhaps there should be more reporting on the Keating Five incident, which resulted in Sen. McCain being admonished by the Congressional Ethics Committee for his misbehavior.
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I recommend, apropos the whole business of "winning" wars, especially against terrorists, the remarks of British Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith:
"We're not going to win this war.
"It's about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that's not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghan army. . .If the Taleban were prepared to sit on the other side of the table and talk about a political settlement, then that's precisely the sort of progress that concludes insurgencies like this. That shouldn't make people uncomfortable."
Discuss. Preferably without references to "surrender", "cheese" and "monkeys".
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I'm with the Kraut! Well said, Sir!
If Magic can't post the history, I can at least link to some of it Here
And, for more recent, here
Peace to all ()
ed
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McCain Wants To Talk About Anything But The Economy
Heh heh heh!
ed
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289:
I think I probably can. I suspect there are more people who hit the "complain about this post" link on those.
It can act as a form of censorship applied by some readers of this blog who are unwilling to see comments antithetical to, or unsupportive of, their own views published here. That should come as no surprise.
You will see, however, that post 257 where this particular allegation surfaced, and which was repeated but a little less directly and slightly more guardedly, although the implication was unmistakeable, by Ms Palin herself today, has been "referred to the moderators".
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292:
?We are looking at turning the page on this financial crisis and getting back to discussing Mr. Obama?s liberal ? aggressively liberal ? record and how he will be too risky for the Americans,? Greg Strimple, a senior adviser to the McCain campaign, said this week . . .(Same NYT report.)
Pretend the economic crisis isn't there, perhaps it'll go away. Or pretend you've solved it, of course, with a little fiscal help for Puerto Rican rum distillers and children's bow-and-arrow manufacturers.
I can see that tactic will go down well with a great many politically uneducated voters, though. The trouble is, 'Financial Crisis II: The Sequel' may hit in the few days before the election.
I'll be laughing all the way to the bank. (Well, crying, more likely.)
Anyway, what's wrong with a bit of "aggressive liberalism"? (Don't all shout at once. I'm not deaf.)
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294, british-ish.
I don't think the voters are much affected by labels like radical, or liberal, or socialist, or fascist. These terms have been bandied about in such a cavalier fashion that they have lost their punch.
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#292, british-ish, the way things are going, there
are some of us who are going to need that rum.
I see this rider to the bill as an example of wise
provisioning by our leadership for the coming
downturn.
Besides, I seem to recall that rations of rum,
inbetween floggings, are used in the British
Navy to improve morale. Pretty soon, they'll
be putting us in rowboats to tow the ship of
state around.
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re: #279 DominickVila
By all definitions of which I am aware, a surplus occurs when total income exceeds the sum of total expenditure and accrued liability. Arriving at a "surplus" by not including interest on the debt is "creative accounting" by any rational standard.
"As for the integrity of the CBO, I had never heard anyone questioned it before."
Sorry about that - I should have been more careful in the way I wrote that. I did not intend to question the integrity of CBO, only to point out that the way it accounts for different types of funds/expenditures is insufficiently transparent to me to be able to use the data provided after only a brief examination. That is why I used only the Treasury and OMB data. I quoted the sentence from another site merely to show that I wasn't the only one who had difficulty with the way in which the CBO handled/presented their data.
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Obama is not the answer to our prayers. No one person can solve the problems that we've created for ourselves! Obama has our vote because for the first time in 2 generations someone has insprired our young people to have hope and believe they can make a difference again. That is where the real hope lies!
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Tina Fey just finished her spoof on Saturday Night Live. I hope you didn't miss it.
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298, Oregon.
"Obama is not the answer to our prayers. No one person can solve the problems that we've created for ourselves! Obama has our vote because for the first time in 2 generations someone has insprired our young people to have hope and believe they can make a difference again. That is where the real hope lies!"
Yes. The hope you talk about is related to trust. Perhaps Obama can also restore our trust in government.
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296, gunsandreligion:
The third part of what was reputed to keep the Navy happy doesn't, however, seem to have been included among the provisions, though. They would have had to put in a provision for, well, gay marriage, to put it coyly, to get the full troika . . .
(I can't work out a way of writing it so it would pass these peculiarly prudish monitors, even though the phrase "rum [a word beginning with b and ending in y] and the lash" is often quoted in this context.)
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#301, british-ish, that's what you get for having a navy of
small ships with primitive plumbing. Now I understand
why the officers had their own living quarters.
#299, Ms. Marbles, I just finished off a Beringer
white merlot, and am just now getting around
to a $2 Charles Shaw Shiraz. Since we are
3 hours behind you "trend-setters" on the East Coast,
I figure that I have another few hours to get
ready for the Tina Fey event. Justin should cover
the SNL debate parodies and skip the "real" ones.
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"I suppose the "palling around with terrorists" accusation is another example of the virtues of small town middle-America politicking?"
Or it's an example of someone actually doing some research into Obama's very murky past. Bill Ayers is an unrepentant terrorist who hates America so much that he tried to blow American servicemen into pieces. Obama spent several months working with and socialising with Ayers. Why would Obama spend so much time with Ayers unless there was a friendship there. This is all stuff the MSM should be exposing but they're more interested in Sarah Palin owning a sunbed.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
302, gunsandreligion:
I should have thanked you for explaining the role of the rum in the solution to the financial crisis.
I think I'm beginning to grasp that this "pork' thing is not as extraneous to the purpose as I first thought.
I'm a bit puzzled over how the arrows will help, however. Perhaps you could assist there, too?
(I suppose they'll all be singing "Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum" on the floor of the NY Stock Exchange on Monday morning, then?)
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All history of the Keating Five and Alaska bridge and firing shenanigans aside,
the only logical follow-on to the latest from Palin about Obama serving on a charitable board with Ayers...
would be for her to attack McCain for working to restore official relations and fraternizing with his former foes and captors, the Vietnamese communists whose forces killed almost 60,000 Americans.
That is the reduction to the absurd of this latest shameless GOP tactic.
To be clear, my point is that 1) neither candidate is in truth a terrorist by association and 2) Palin is voicing pretty desparate distractions from the economy and real foreign policy issues.
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"I realize that comments based on unsubstantiated media reports are inappropriate, and may even have legal implications, but why does the BBC allow posts that accuse a presidential candidate of criminal behavior when there is no evidence of guilt?"
Who has accused Obama of "criminal behavior" ?
People are merely pointing out that the man running for the office of the President Of The United States had no problem consorting with a man who hates America (always has) and who tried to organise terrorist bombings inside America. And they are not "unsubstantiated media reports"...they are facts.
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"White america has never done nothing to deserve any blacks wanting to blow their racist asses up, did they."
Perhaps you should have a GOOD look at Bill Ayers and his wife Bernadette Doern...they are both middle class whites who thought it was "cool" to kill fellow Americans. Some of those fellow Americans they tried to kill were blacks in the US military.
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#305, I have been thinking about the arrows, as well.
Perhaps now that our domestic industry is going to
be subsidized, I shall be able to procure a means
to defend myself against the ever present threat
of mountain lions.
I'm taking a hike tomorrow on a trail aptly named
"Cougar Ridge." Perhaps kids' arrows fired from
a 30lb recurved bow will be sufficient to promote
my survival.
For a view of the situation from the mountain lion's
point of view, I recommend this reliable source of information.
I'm not sure how to utilize the newfound access
to motor sports that this $800B bill encompasses;
perhaps with the recent increased cost of gasoline
I should give up my car and go back to a go-cart.
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" hires a bunch of mercenaries to slander them."
Hmm, the Swift Boat Veterans were actually highly decorated members of the US Military . What on earth are you talking about ?
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vivaelcid:
"Riot and bomb conspiracy charges against Ayers were dropped in 1974" according to CNN.
Is this an unsubstantiated media report, or a fact?
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" Palin is voicing pretty desparate distractions from the economy and real foreign policy issues."
Yeah, why would it be important that the possible leader of a country spent a great deal of time with
a man who despised that country ? Add that to Obama attending a church that preached hatred of America for twenty years and a pattern starts to emerge.
It's also hilarious to read that Palin is voicing "petty distractions" when the pro-Democrat MSM have run countless stories about Palin's family, her sun bed, her hunting, her hair-do, her accent,
etc., etc. etc. etc.
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We get the government we deserve, the US deserves McCain/Palin. However the world deserves Obama/Biden
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"Riot and bomb conspiracy charges against Ayers were dropped in 1974" according to CNN.
They were only dropped because of a police cock-up. Ayers admitted the bombings in his own book. Read wikipedia. He planted bombs on American soil - fact !!! If that doesn't make him a terrorist what does ? In 2001 he boasted that he still hated America and wished he carried out more bombings. The photo that accompanied the article shows a bitter old man (Ayers) trampling an American flag.Why did Obama even spend five minutes in this man's company - let alone months ?
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"would be for her to attack McCain for working to restore official relations and fraternizing with his former foes and captors, the Vietnamese communists whose forces killed almost 60,000 Americans."
Can you really not see the difference between a man trying to make friends with a former enemy country and a man who spends time with an American who tried to kill fellow Americans ?
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"However the world deserves Obama/Biden"
Wow, that's not very friendly. What did the world ever do to you ?
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#301. british-ish: "I can't work out a way of writing it . . . "
That's when links come in handy! The phrase you're looking for was originated by Winston Churchill, voted the greatest Briton of all time. The mods can hardly object to the great man's analysis of the Royal Navy!
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309, guns and religion:
Yes, I quite see that the mountain lion threat could well do serious damage to the USA's health care budget and probably even drive many insurance companies into bankruptcy with the huge sums they no doubt have to pay out to the victims of these unprovoked terrorist attacks.
I understand it all much better now. Thanks again.
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289 DominicVila and others.
If you followed the links in the article I posted you would have found Ayers, in his own words, admitting planting bombs and saying in 2001 ""I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."
I'm not aware that Ayers tries to justify his terrorism by reference to racism. He appears to be just another hard-left activist who hates his own country because not enough people agree with his socialist politics.
P.S I've just read the BBC's account of Palin brining up Obama's association with Ayers. Incredibtly, the BBC's herculean efforts make it look bad for Palin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7653132.stm
They put the word "terrorist" in quotes, as if there is any doubt that trying to blow people up for political reasons is terrorism.
It's amazing how willing the left are to forgive left-wing murders. It's only right wing murders that are really bad.
The BBC, unprompted, even use Obama's line that he was a child when Ayers was carrying out his bombings. As if that gets him off the hook. Nobody accused the child Obama of helping the bombings. They accused the adult Obama of appalling judgment in hanging around with Ayers when he still tries to justify the bombings 40 years later.
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316:
"Ask not what the world did for you; ask what you can do for the world."
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#310. vivaelcid : "the Swift Boat Veterans were actually highly decorated members of the US Military."
That's as may be, but only one of Kerry's boat joined them, the others did not support the accusations. Neither did John McCain, saying "I condemn the [Swift Boat Vets] ad. It is dishonest and dishonorable. I think it is very, very wrong".
If the Republican flag carrier condemned it, I see no reason for you to support it, as you apparently do by your comment.
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I'm surprised that Palin didn't bring Bill Clinton into her diatribe. After all, he not only consorted with, but attended the innaugeration of that other well known terrorist and friend of Fidel Castro, Nelson Mandela. In fact, it was only this year, that he was urgently removed, along with the ANC, from Americas' list of terrorist organisations.
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"Riot and bomb conspiracy charges against Ayers were dropped in 1974" according to CNN."
It's actually very heartening to see your trust in CNN. Any notion that they might be slightly biased against McCain / Palin is nonsense of course, In fact the US media has done a wonderful job in exposing the links between imprisoned and disgraced slum landlord Tony Rezko and Obama....well, okay they haven't but they really gave Obama a hard time over his twenty years in a church that was both racist and anti-American....well, no, they didn't do that either. Ah, but they really did a proper research job on Obama's links to Bill Ayers...umm, no, not so much. But they did do their jobs when they investigated Obama's links to the scandal of Freddie Mac and Freddie Mae......ha, ha, ha, dream on.
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"If the Republican flag carrier condemned it, I see no reason for you to support it, as you apparently do by your comment."
It doesn't matter what McCain said , because no-one has disproved the Swift Boat Veterans' allegations . Kerry couldn't back up his own claims against the men he served with and then stabbed in the back and he lost the election. End of story.
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"I'm surprised that Palin didn't bring Bill Clinton into her diatribe."
Why are you surprised ? Clinton didn't spend any time hanging out with a guy who planned to kill fellow Americans...can you REALLY not see the difference ?
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319:
They put the word "terrorist" in quotes, as if there is any doubt that trying to blow people up for political reasons is terrorism.
The word terrorists is in quotes for good reason in the headline not in the main report.
The word has come to be associated with other groups of far more recent vintage than the Weathermen, and while it was obviously Palin's attention to imply that association, by putting the word in quotes in the headline, the BBC subeditors are trying to make sure the BBC is not seen as supporting it, only reporting it. .
That's how it works. I have worked as a subeditor, and I would have done exactly the same.
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Please, vivalecid. You wrote yourself:
"They [i.e. the charges] were only dropped because of a police cock-up."
You presumably agree that they were dropped; which is what CNN said. And, as far as I can see, he has not been charged since.
So, if I cannot trust CNN on this, I cannot trust you either.
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" Surely the American ppl are not that stupid" - well to be honest they did actually vote for GORE in 2000 and if America was a true democacy they would have allowed him in.... the same in 2004 with Kerry - there is so much evidence to indicate the electronic voting were hacked and switched in keypoint areas to swing the election.... SHEEP TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE NOW.... watch as it happens again..... America is the non-democracy
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"You presumably agree that they were dropped; which is what CNN said. And, as far as I can see, he has not been charged since."
If you actually tried some basic research for yourself, you would see how CNN were trying to hide the FACT that Ayers himself admitted the bombing campaign and his part in it. CNN could have chosen to tell us that part of the story or the FACT that he was present when his wife blew herself making a nail bomb to kill US troops or they could have told us about the technicality on which Ayers was accquited but no, they chose a comment which implied Ayers had not committed the bombings.
Strange how you people are running cover for Obama and yet if McCain had even spent one hour in the company of a right-wing abortion-clinic bomber you'd all be swooning with the HORROR of it all.
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Ha ! Its all come together on this site during the past few hours. The GOP at its snarling worst.
The Swift Boaters did for Kerry in 2004 and so we'll make d.....d sure that we'll get William Ayers to do the same for Obama in 2008.
And someone has even had the front to say that Obama used to "hang out" with Ayers.
Just because you cross paths with someone who lives in your neighbourhood and who is involved in education as you are, it doesn't mean that you "hang out" with them.
Oh well, one of a bloggers started off yesterday by fearing that it was going to get very dirty and here we are not 24 hours later wading through sludge - while the world looks on in horror.
Worst of all, the BBC had just played a tape of Palin screeching about Ayers on the radio which has driven most bemused Brits back under the bed covers. Where we'll probably stay until until November 4th if this is the sort of rubbish we have to listen to.
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"well to be honest they did actually vote for GORE in 2000 and if America was a true democacy they would have allowed him in.... the same in 2004 with Kerry -"
Well, to be honest, Bush won both elections fairly despite the Democrats voter fraud in several states.
"there is so much evidence to indicate the electronic voting were hacked and switched in keypoint areas to swing the election...."
Evidence known only to yourself apparently because no-one else is aware of it.
"SHEEP TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE NOW."
So because the American people don't vote the way you want them to, you see them as sheep deserving death ?
"America is the non-democracy "
So you define democracy as something that only occurs when a liberal wins? What a strange view of democracy.
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325,
"Why are you surprised ? Clinton didn't spend any time hanging out with a guy who planned to kill fellow Americans...can you REALLY not see the difference ?"
I think you missed the irony implicit in my post.
I also believe that many Americans confuse the America that is enshrined in the constitution with the one that actually exists for many of it's citizens.
The 15th Ammendment was ratified in 1870 yet it took the 24th, ratified in 1964, to clamp down on the states who were still trying to avoid implementing the original purpose of it.
Trying to impune the patriotism of someone by association and by implication enhance your own harks back to the worst days of McCarthyism.
As the quotation goes "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel", or words to that effect.
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290. British-ish
Afghanistan. Quite rare to get a statement pitched into the public domain by a military field commander at x1 star level and below in theatre. It will be interesting to gauge political reaction as this is seemingly being increasingly widely reported today.
I believe the comments by Brig Mark Carleton Smith after x6 months in Helmand to be both refreshingly pragmatic and, more importantly, a far more realistic assessment of the realities on the ground in Afghanistan.
Listening over recent weeks to the complete verbal diarrhea that is open speak of WAR; VICTORY; HONOUR.... blah, blah, blah, has removed any need for me to dabble with bulimia. Words from individuals so staggeringly divorced from the needs of other peoples and understanding complex situations and whose sole fear; fear; fear; proposition is.......
*MY FRIENDS, WE; SORRY I; KNOW HOW TO WIN THIS*
Yes....... by continuing to implement a one dimensional military strategy, that again does not take into account any of the really important diplomatic and human fundamentals........
As I raised yesterday, I am flabbergasted by events in the last x48 hours.... i) that US drone missile attacks are continuing unabated across one border into Pakistan whilst ii) across the other border, to the East, the US is engaging in rapid fire negotiations with Pakistan's traditional foe, India.
Errr, a great diplomatic and military *get you in pack* for a brand new Pakistani president seeking to stabilise a very complex internal counter insurgency situation with his supposed US friend and ally who is speeding into Dehli to capture some last gasp ???? gains with indecent haste...... great perception, judgement? Niet, with a capital N.
Pat on the back for the CIA operatives on the deck in Pakistan who nailed the target in North Wiziristan...... *reportedly* some foreign insurgents taken out by the missile together with women and children.
Conveys a message, yes, but is it the right message? Now take yourself mentally right into this region and that village..... consider carefully... and tell me what actual effect that specific action will have in this war on terror - esp if the subtlety of winning hearts and minds has any place in this?
For me, history remains firmly in the driving seat. The thing of greatest worry is that we now reached that first generation of political world leaders whose real connect with the hard lessons from last century is seriously clouded; whose jingoistic remedies are flawed; whose judgement is worryingly weak and who may, just may, drag mankind into another world war.
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"The word has come to be associated with other groups of far more recent vintage than the Weathermen, and while it was obviously Palin's attention to imply that association, by putting the word in quotes in the headline, the BBC subeditors are trying to make sure the BBC is not seen as supporting it, only reporting it."
Ha, ha ,ha !! Either the Weathermen were terrorists or not. Palin meant what she said ..who made the BBC judge and jury of what she meant ? The BBC are taking sides by using quotes...people who planned to explode a nail bomb in a dance hall full of men and women enjoying themselves are terrorists plain and simple.
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330, 80.
I guess I can never be president. In Iran I knew both the revolutionaries and the shah's people. I have known McCarthyites and communists. I have even known criminals. I can never be president. (But I sure have had an interesting life.)
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"Just because you cross paths with someone who lives in your neighbourhood and who is involved in education as you are, it doesn't mean that you "hang out" with them."
Hey, isn't that straight out of the New York Times editorial pages ? "Crossed paths" ? Obama and Ayers didn't "cross paths" - they worked closely on setting up a scheme to channel taxpayers money into getting Leftist propaganda into the Chicago School System. Obama also met Ayers "outside work" at numerous social events...he was also friend with Ayers' wife who once praised the Manson Family murders as "cool". Nice people Obama chose to befriend...and let's not even start with the bigoted Rev Wright who was Obama's "mentor" for 20 years. Oh and how about slum lord Tony Rezko ? I'm sorry if these truths are uncomfortable for some of you to deal with but Obama's very mysterious past is beginning to get exposed to the light.
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"Oh well, one of a bloggers started off yesterday by fearing that it was going to get very dirty and here we are not 24 hours later wading through sludge - while the world looks on in horror."
Oh I see...so it wasn't dirty when the Left questioned if Sarah Palin was really the mother of Trig ? So it wasn't dirty when the Left screamed about her husband's DUI offence from 20 years back ? So it wasn't dirty when the Left said Palin "wasn't really a woman" ? And it wasn't dirty when Obama accused McCain of racism ? But suddenly, when something that many of us have known about for months finally gets some attention...then , and only then, does it become "dirty." Get real.
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#336
Vivaelcid - you sound tired and emotional and you are not doing your cause any favours.
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337, Viva.
You are probably just upset because your candidate is losing. It's only an election. The world is not going to end if Obama wins.
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sp who has been on the national political scene for only a few weeks now is spouting on campaign strategy and crying terrorist association that is patently false. mcant campaign has no plan to lay before the American public, so attacking the character of Obama is their plan, how pathetic. It is a shame that some people are willing to believe them without checking the truth available to the public to prove this accusation is groundless. gop is getting more desparate as time to the election grows shorter.
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"Trying to impune the patriotism of someone by association and by implication enhance your own harks back to the worst days of McCarthyism."
Do you even know what McCarthyism is ? Telling the truth about someone's ties (and not just someone but a possible President) to an unrepentant terrorist is not about McCarthyism. It's about the judgment of a man who wants to lead America and the FACT that he thought it OK to associate with people who plotted to kill and maim American troops on their own soil. If Obama thought it was OK to spend so much time with Ayers why didn'y he just admit and leave the American people to judge him. But instead he lied and said "Oh , he's just some guy in the neighborhood " when he was much more than that.
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341, viva.
"If Obama thought it was OK to spend so much time with Ayers why didn'y he just admit and leave the American people to judge him. But instead he lied and said "Oh , he's just some guy in the neighborhood " when he was much more than that."
Do you have PERSONAL knowledge of this, or do you just read the propaganda and nod you head yes?
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"You are probably just upset because your candidate is losing. It's only an election. The world is not going to end if Obama wins."
I don't have a candidate and unlike you and others here who have indulged in endless ridicule of Sarah Palin, I deal only in facts not abuse. Whilst it was obvious that you all found it very amusing to discuss a poor child with Down's Syndrome, I am merely pointing out things that the MSM don't want to tell you about Barak Obama. You find it interesting to heap abuse on Sarah Palin, I find it interesting to find out who Obama's friends really are.
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"crying terrorist association that is patently false"
How is it "patently false". More information is coming out by the day about Obama's shady Chicago past. Why is Palin's past so important but Obama's isn't. What are you all afraid of finding ? If there is nothing wrong with any of his Chicago gang why don't the MSM do the kind of investigation on Obama that they did on Palin in Alaska ? If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen....
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Please don't knock Sarah Palin. Politics seems to have been such a dry area recently that our comedy sketch writers have had little to go on. Palin would be a godsend (sic).
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"gop is getting more desparate as time to the election grows shorter."
Actually, one could argue that the Dems are getting more desperate to hide the truth about Obama as the election grows nearer. Obama has had the media in his pocket since he started the primaries. Hilary managed to expose some of his past i.e. the racist Rev Wright but the media shut her down pretty quick. They've all done a good job of circling the wagons and protecting "their boy"with the result that the public know less about this man than any other candidate in history. Why is his time at Columbia such a mystery ? What were his connections to ACORN (the organistation accused of voter fraud in several states) ? How much did he owe to the crooked Tony Rezko ? This should all have come out months ago and the Dems are paranoid that it might actually come out now.
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343, viva.
If we make fun of Palin, it is not because of what we read about her, but what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears. She is ignorant and an embarrassment. I don't care who her friends are or what people say about her. Smears or bad press don't matter in her case. She destroys herself.
Choosing Sarah Palin was not McCain's finest moment.
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# 346
As I wrote before, Vivaelcid, you are not doing your cause any favours. Now, the more you rant on, the more damage you are doing.
Think about it and take a break.
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"Do you have PERSONAL knowledge of this, or do you just read the propaganda and nod you head yes?"
Do you have PERSONAL knowledge that he didn't do the stuff I mentioned, or do you just read the propaganda and nod your head no ?
Instead of reading the NYT or watching CNN why don't you look up Stanley Kurtz on Google. This is the man who has single-handedly researched Obama's connection with Bill Ayers and the Annenberg Challenge committee they were both involved in. Besides Ayers' terrorist past, Americans might be interested in the extreme left agenda the Annenberg Challenge was trying to foist on Chicago's school system.
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"s I wrote before, Vivaelcid, you are not doing your cause any favours. Now, the more you rant on, the more damage you are doing."
Au contraire mon brave, I am doing my cause lots of favours. No-one here seems able to refute any of my observations about Obama and his dodgy Chicago past. Rather than the usual anti-Palin rants about moose-hunting (how original !) I thought this thread could do with an injection of reality. I'm sorry it's more than most of you could take. The only damage I am doing is to the smug confidence of those who think Obama is somehow perfect.
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349, viva.
Vote for McCain and his moose-hunting sidekick and be happy. Believe everything your candidate says and disbelieve everything else. You have made your life very simple and I envy you.
Unlike your candidates, mine are not perfect. But you know what? I am going to vote for them anyway. Meanwhile I appreciate the giggles that Palin provides.
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Viva
I know exactly what McCarthyism was. However, using the fact that Obama served on a committee with Ayers, in which they both had a common interest, to imply some form of unpatriotic action is no different to McCarthy's approach.
Hell, the Northern Ireland Parliament contains one of the biggest ex terrorists (US backed, as well) who sits there due to the fact that both parties are working towards a common goal. Pragmatism isn't unpatriotic.
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Various - vivaelcid
Welcome back JohnAAA........ you really didn't need to change callsign. I am still waiting for the old RAF number by the way.....
Yes, domestics are going to get dirgey and tacky from here on in - it is the only tangible option GOP strategists have got.
Albeit as markets lock in tomorrow the global financial situation is not going to be swept under any carpet. Moreover, other developments on the slippery slope, closer to MainSt and closer to home and families, akin to a real wake up call c/o a wet kipper across the cheek, are going to be the drivers.
Of more importance is taking a step out of the box and looking at one key personal dimension....... personal security. I want to know that the security team of Sen Obama is doing its job in this last x4 weeks to unparalled standards.
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"She is ignorant and an embarrassment."
Wow, insightful political comment ! If she is so ignorant how is it possible that she held her own against a man who has spent 35 years in the senate (even Left-wing pundits begrudgingly admit she gave as good as got with Biden). What does this say about the abilities of the Dem's Vice President candidate ? How also did she rise to be Governor of Alaska ? BTW this is your cue to insult Alaskans.
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It is disheartening to view the electoral tactics of the Republican plants here.
It also shows a major reason for the descent of America to its present status.
"Legalism" is a non-Christian import to the USA.
No amount of flag-waving and ostentatious church activity can ovecome
what is so disgustingly evident here.
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352, David d.J.
You're wasting your time (and I have wasted mine). You can talk sense to a zealot.
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"I think she has a good shot at picking up some votes in the swamps of the Florida Everglades"
So the aligators have the vote now?
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354.
You only see what you want to see. After the Palin-Biden "debate" (when she couldn't answer any direct questions), McCain dropped in the polls.
I am sure you have an explanation for that. I would love to hear it. I admire creativity.
Goodnight all.
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"However, using the fact that Obama served on a committee with Ayers, "
Oh, good to see that is now an established fact.....a fews ago Obama said they were only neighbours. Why the lie ? What was he trying to hide. This is nothing like a Northern Ireland situation... 99% of Americans don't approve of people (especially another American) trying to kill their soldiers . Why Obama thought it was a good idea to befriend this guy is something he obviously can't or won't explain.
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Viva - when the debate returns to policies (heard of them?) and solutions to the problems we all face in 2008, we aren't going to be able to take you very seriously.
And it shows little understanding of this site to accuse people of unseemly comments about Sarah Palin's children. It may have happened elsewhere - but this site is strictly moderated (for the very practical reason that the BBC wants to retain its licence, although I don't think that you are helping it too much in that respect).
You have to be already stuck in the mud in order to start slinging the stuff.
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I would like to extend my thanks to the BBC moderators for allowing this debate to go on and for all the contributions that made this an interesting evening. Sadly , duty calls so I must retire. But I am happy in the knowledge that I leave the field unbowed, unbloodied and by any reasonable standards , victorious !!
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Viva El Cid
allmymarbles advice in 356 is correct.
I assume you assumed the El Cid nick as he defeated the Muslim forces in Spain. How subtle.
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#333 BillTyrone
I don't think so. It's just that because British forces are smaller their commanders are lower ranks. He was quoted before, a short time ago.
There was also this from a previous commander whilst in theatre and I believe there have been others.
I don't think there's anything new about British pragmatism in Afghanistan.
It has got the UK into political trouble with the Afghans for dealing with the Taleban and for wanting Hamid Karzai's political cronies removed.
There is obviously a difference with modern counterinsurgency wars in that words like 'victory' mean something different.
That does not mean that troops on the ground do not need motivating. In the British army, that motivation more and more stems from helping local people on the ground. I believe that is true of the US army as well. That is the 'victory' for all of us.
Which hearts and minds ? The people in the tribal areas of Pakistan know what they are doing and they know it will attract the wrath of the Pakistan government and most of the people of Pakistan.
Witness the Pakistan army offensive in Bajaur which reportedly killed 1,000 people in the tribal areas. Probably exaggerated but orders of magnitude greater than anything the Americans do.
All of the evidence runs counter to that. Scorn is heaped on the Bush Administration in comments on this blog for the 'Awakening Councils' in Iraq. The links above point to stories where the US and UK speak to the Taleban to get peace.
The UK government spoke to Sinn Fein to get peace and encouraged the governments of the ANC in South Africa and ZAPU in Zimbabwe.
The trend in modern times is to try to get governments of a majority of the nation. The problem with that, evidenced in Kenya and Zimbabwe is of governance itself.
The next step in many countries will be to get the peaceful changeover of power which all democracies need and so few relatively new to the democratic process have managed in recent times.
Zimbabwe and Kenya are steps backward in this process. It will be long, difficult and diplomatic but I believe it is achievable.
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# 361
Has he really gone or is he going to be like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction and keep popping up again ?
I found that all so sad. I live in a Garrison town, home to two famous regiments, and we have seen the bodies of too many young husbands and fathers brought home because of what Obama calls this "dumb war".
There is so much to be done to find the right way forward - and we have just seen - in all its gory diversionary tactics, the level of debate that Republicans want to sink to over the coming month.
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ref #267
Simon your post demonstrates your usual ignorance and what appears a European leftist condescension of Jews.
First Zionism welcomed Jews from any part of the world including Middle East and Africa.
Second the idea was to return the Dispora to their land of origin.
They are many people who are most culturaly Jewish than follow the religous tenants.
There are cultural Christians and Moslems too.
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ref #266
first William Ayers got off on a technicality he is unrepentant.
It shows a lack of judgement on Obama's part to start his political career at Ayers house.
Since one of his major planks is his supposed judgement his relationship with Ayers, Wright Rezkno his advisors who were at the heart of the financial meltdown are fair game.
Obama has got a free ride from most of the media because they are taking an active part in promoting his canidacy. Unlike 00 and 04 they are not being subtle about it.
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Anyone wanting the truth after this morning's onslaught can google "Stanley Kurtz and the Anti-Obama Smear Machine which says it all.
Unfortunate co-incidence that this man's name is Kurtz, Mr. Kurtz.
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HAs anybody else noticed Robert Peston's idea for the British response to the 'toxic debt' problem ?
I can't say I like Robert Peston. I believe he was the prime mover in the downfall of Northern Rock which might otherwise have survived.
Nevertheless this idea has a lot of merit.
I got in a froth with the American 'bailout' because it included taking equity from ailing banks into government hands. That, coming especially from Nancy Pelosi, smacked of simple partisan spite politics.
Robert Peston has given a better function for equity acquisition. Here is part of his explanation:
The idea of the PADA (which I think is good, like the NHS, I believe people should have a livable minimum pension). He says, further on:
On the face of it, it's a good idea and I hope something of the sort happens.
The problems are political. They start with the last paragraph of his piece:
The notion that there should be 'natural justice' in the financial system is absurd.
It could start politicians thinking that maybe they should favour companies in which the PADA has substantial holdings. Lawsuits, lawsuits, lawsuits.
It could really only work if the PADA were an entirely separate agency in which the government had no direct control. There might need to be other provisos as well.
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Palin is proving to be McCain's Achilles heel. By making groundless charges against Obama, she is hoping to deflect attention from her own glaring errors. Her statements are bound to rebound on her and make her look even more ridiculous! By claiming that Obama had dealings wih home-grown terrorists she has most certainly made an unwise statement. She should check her facts.
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# 368
When I read Peston's theory, the first problem that leapt to mind was that it was predicated on the markets making a quick recovery - and that is a known unkown.
He's right to start putting proposals on the table, though. At the moment there is a "rabbit caught in the headlights" air about the markets and Peston seems to be trying to get them to do some advanced thinking about the future.
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Has America been overcome by riots-or 'a backlash' as you call it, Cunard? You live in America (I'm guessing the gated community variety) perhaps you can tell us? And please tell me some facts before they happen, kecsmar #168! Please do!
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# 369
I rather suspect that Palin is following instructions
and acting a a desperate "attack dog" for a losing and very corrupt party.
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Re: Palin links Obama with terrorists
McCain's campaign got her to utter a statement, which came out as "palling around with terrorists", because they're hoping it'll deflect attention from the fact that they ain't coming up with any responses to the crisis.
First, there appears to have been only one "terrorist".
Secondly, "palling around": this individual lives in the same street in a Chicago neighborhood where they both live and they both raised funds for a school improvement project and a charitable foundation.
What is clear is that people want to see plans and ideas on the economy on the table urgently.
Instead, going off and getting tougher on questioning Barack Obama's integrity because they "have to change the subject here" is going to backfire on them badly.
It's going to be wasting time trying to cast negative aspects of their opponent and it's not going to work this time because of worries about the economy. They'll be forced into a rethink.
There seems to have been some infatuation with her, but at the same time people are fed up with the slur and slandering that goes on.
People see through it, the old McCarthyism they wheel out went they need to change the subject; people are busy focussed on the economy and what it will mean for them, their families and so on.
Plans, ideas and policies, bipartisanship, is what's defining the moment in America.
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""Frankly, I understand why many people support McCain, he has demonstrated his patriotism and he does have a good and very moderate Congressional record, but I can not believe people are actually impressed with Sarah Palin.""
Frankly I can not believe people are actually impressed with Barak Obama, that is just mind boggling, the man has done nothing, Not 1 shred of service to his country, he is ashamed of his own country, the man is a joke, 143 days of experience, can someone tell me what company would hire someone as CEO with 143 days experience ??
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What is the significance of Obama pulling out of four states? One of those was Alaska...can't remember the other ones. The media barely reported it and made nothing of it. The bigger story is why the media makes a huge deal of McCain pulling out of one state and whispers that Obama has pulled out of four.
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Re:#369. And meanwhile teh Troopergate findings are before the Alaskan Supreme Court with teh McCain campaign suing to have them suppressed until afte the election.
SNL on the debate...
Sarah v (may I call you) Joe
Queen Latifa is fab
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371 Cb4
You wnat some facts before they happen...oh, ok...like er, um...the sun will explode, or the sun will rise tomorrow morning (before it explodes) or there will be a new president of US elected next month....you mean like this?
Im confused, what you are actually trying to say....!!
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335AMM
Indeed you have had a colourful life...as one should too. How is one to understand the world by living life in the middle of the road???
I guess that also makes my non-electable. I naturally deviate away from MOR...
However, when i was at uni, one of my class mates was from S.Africa. His friend was imprisoned for his "political tendencies". His crime?...he was in the same class as Steve Biko, that was it.
So, lets start locking up all those Americans that supported the IRA shall we?..or what about everyone that has ever protested against the Govt..ops, bugger, can't do that unless you get permission...hmm....isnt democracy great ;)
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#374 bluepaddy13
"Not 1 shred of service to his country"
You mightn't be able to recognize it or understand it, but President of the Harvard Law Review.. thousands of lawyers across America depend on that journal. That is service to his country.
Obama is a lawyer, and even cynics have to admit that lawyers, the good ones, are fundamental to the country, to uphold the constitution, the rule of law etc. etc. That is service to his country.
As a US Senator.. by definition, service to his country.
The thing with Obama is, and this is the thing about this whole election, - there is no one else around that has it - leadership.
It's the power to inspire people. There hasn't been anyone around who has had that in years. Obama has things to say that impress people more than anyone now or in years past, someone who can really do things.
Hillary was no match no matter how hard she wanted (and I'm a Hillary supporter btw).
McCain by comparison is just the nasty lil ol' fella he is.
And as for Hockeymom... hockey between the ears
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Re: 319 and 326 (British-ish): the BBC has now taken the quotation marks off the word "terrorist" on its article about Palin tying Obama to unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7653132.stm
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...
Perhaps a new sub-editor took over who accepts that trying to blow people up in the name of left-wing politics is actually terrorism. Maybe the sub-editor even read my comment?
But still the story is about Palin, taking the focus away from what the relationship says about Obama. I don't think they would extend the same courtesy to McCain if he had launched his political career in the living room of a terrorist, especially not one who expressed no regret for his bombings.
Some on this blog have tried to deny Ayers is a terrorist. I think that looks a little silly.
Others tried to suggest I was pulling the wool over people's eyes by linking to a blog on the Daily Telegraph website.
Firstly, simply following the link would dispel any suggestion that my blog was itself a bona fide Telegraph article.
Secondly, the blog links to articles in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times - papers at opposite ends of the political spectrum who both give details of the Obama/Ayers association.
283: Jacksforge calls me racist for mentioning the Obama/Ayers connection. His logic seems to go like this: "Ayers bombed people because of racist oppression so that makes it OK and if you criticse the bombing, you are a racist."
Sadly for Jacksforge, as far as I can establish, Ayers justified his terrorism with reference to the Vietnam War, not racial segregation.
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#379 peterdough wrote:"
You mightn't be able to recognize it or understand it, but President of the Harvard Law Review.. thousands of lawyers across America depend on that journal. That is service to his country." No it is not. PERIOD
The words of a "forked tongue" lawyer do not inspire me one bit. Obama has zero leadership qualities.
McCAIN is a leader, proven many times over
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#369 Pancha_Chandra wrote:
Palin is proving to be McCain's Achilles heel. By making groundless charges against Obama, she is hoping to deflect attention from her own glaring errors. Her statements are bound to rebound on her and make her look even more ridiculous! By claiming that Obama had dealings wih home-grown terrorists she has most certainly made an unwise statement. She should check her facts.................
Just because the media is not following up on it does not mean its groundless, in fact anyone who should check their facts because it makes one look ridiculous is YOU, its not groundless in fact its pretty much PROVED beyond a doubt Obama considers this self professed domestic terrorists a friend of his, IMAGINE if a republican had a self professed terrorists as a buddy !!
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If 380 is going to go back over the same ground, then so can I - and urge readers to look up "Stanley Kurtz and the Anti-Obama Smear Machine" (that's Mistah Kurtz, btw)
Palin has set an dangerous trap for herself with her attack yesterday. She now opens the way for people to examine her links with the Alaskan Independence Group with which she has had proven links in the recent past. This is the group whose founder says that he refused to be buried under the American flag and declared "I'm an Alaskan not an American. I've got no use for America or her d ....... institutions."
Prsumably that includes the Vice Presidency.
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333/363 (Chill0 and BillTyrone):
I still doubt if either candidate will dare to discuss that brigadier's view, however pragmatic, in the current American political climate.
It just doesn't conduce to the idea of "victory" or "winning".
But like it or not, it seems that the US Army is coming round to the same view.
Until they persuade the politicians (and one or two can put this pragmatism to the country without the "surrender monkey" response which has already appeared elsewhere on this blog, drowning it) nothing much is going to change.
The propaganda of the Neocons seems to have made real debate and discussion of solutions, let alone the development of a consensus, to Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Gaza, the West Bank, and any others that crop up. It's often vividly evident here.
Not, I think, until Karzai is replaced; I think he was annoyed with the Brits (prodded, probably by the US) simply because he and they still desperately want to persuade the world, maybe even themselves, that he is a president of a country and not just mayor of Kabul.
(A fish-and-chip, sometimes pasta, never mooseburger-eating surrender monkey.)
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There has, I think, been a lot of muddled and downright dishonest arguments made regarding Palins comments.
Whether the media has given Obama an easy ride, or not, isn't really the point. The point is that the Republican VP candidate publicly attempts to link his name to terrorists, not just one individual. The implication being that Obama is anti american and sympathetic to ant US terrorist organisations.
Here is her quote:
"Our opponent though, is someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."
Please note the present tense "he's" and future tense "would".
This disgusting and thinly disguised attempt to link a presidential candidate with existing terrorist (we all know who they are) in the publics mind.
Even more disgusting is McCain allowing it whilst pretending to be running a clean campaign himself.
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What is the point of repeating the same thing 30 or 40 times? Everyone grasped hours ago that some people think Obama has consorted with a man who some define as a terrorist.
Can't you give it a rest?
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Look at the current BBC "Have Your Say" entitled 'Are the "gloves off" in US campaign?'
HYS Link
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Something I came across, a web-ad for McCain on the weekly standard - with only one problem;
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/663xubeb.asp
Where is the old silver fox?
It seems extraordinary to me that the VP nominee is put above the presidential nominee, by their own campaign ads!
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Instead of critiquing Governor Palin for her winks and shout outs to children, why not do some real research on her record as Mayor and Governor. She is way ahead of Obama AND McCain when it comes to energy conservation and her proposal of drilling in ANWAR. There is an article from the Heritage Foundation explaining her
reasoning for drilling in ANWAR.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432521,00.html
The Governor is an environmentalist, energy conservationist and she has a proven track record of cleaning up corruption. Now, isn't she the consummate stateswoman we are all asking for in Washington or do we want more of the Pelosi types?
The winks, smiles and the connection to Joe Six Pack are all reminiscent of one of our greatest communicators, President Reagan.
All the women loved his cutesy body language and down home speeches. Palin is a female Ronald Reagan, but the pundits, especially some women have proved they are sexist when it comes to Palin. I was born and raised in the Midwest and know honesty when I see it. Governor Palin is the Real Deal. I wish she were running for President.
"A rare, sane Californian"
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# 389
Calm down dear.
Can you imagine the women who have really achieved something, women like Margaret Thatcher, Angela Merkell, the late Benazir Bhutto, Condaleeza Rice and even Hillary Clinton, resorting to a pseudo-pantomime act of winking and "doggon-its" to make their debating point ?
Sarah Palin's cutie-pie behaviour is an insult to feminism. It is crass and it demeans the position of the vice presidency.
It also demeans John McCain.
And the word "conservation" seems to have a completely different meaning in Alaska to the rest of the English-speaking world.
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any comment on the latest McCain cheap shot i.e. Obama socialising with terrorists?
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#391 Parrisia wrote:
any comment on the latest McCain cheap shot i.e. Obama socialising with terrorists?....................... NOT a cheap shot its the truth, the media is reluctant to cover it, but they would be all over it if McCain had such a friend
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389
If she were honest she'd have said "I don't know enough to answer the question" during the debate, instead of ignoring them.
I fail to understand the idea that if America is self sufficient in oil, then it will be cheaper and more readily available. Do Americans really have that much faith in their oil companies that they believe that they'll sell it less than the international ruling price and only to the USA? That would mean passing legislation giving America control over these companies. It could possibly be passed as an emergency Wartime Act, much like the Patriot Act, but the GOP would have a fit.
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#314. vivaelcid: "They were only dropped because of a police cock-up."
Since absolutely no-one in America uses those last two words to describe a gross error (it being considered vulgar) then you must be British. Your overbearing ranting about the virtues of the Republican candidates makes me think that you are JohnAA with a new screen name. #337 continues in the same vein about Mrs Palin and others - this time repeating 'dirty' rather than 'smears'.
Regarding the Swift Boat Veterans, considering that at #314 you suggest Wikipedia as a reference, then you might read what that publication has to say about them. Your accusations, and theirs, are not corroborated.
As eightypercent wrote, "you are not doing your cause any favours."
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If,and I mean if, Obama has gotten an easy ride fromthe media there are two people mainly responsible for it: Hilary Clinton and John McCain. Clinton's disdain for the media during the primary campaign meant that being merely human the men and women of the press gravitated towards media. Now in the Presidential campaign McCain's efforts to duck the press at every opportunity has alienated them with the same result. You can't treat people like dirt and expect them to stay impartial, however much they should do so in theory.
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vivaelcid wrote:
"Nice people Obama chose to befriend...and let's not even start with the bigoted Rev Wright who was Obama's "mentor" for 20 years. Oh and how about slum lord Tony Rezko ? I'm sorry if these truths are uncomfortable for some of you to deal with but Obama's very mysterious past is beginning to get exposed to the light."
And you are completely sure and knowledgable on Mccain and Palin's history? Im pretty sure some tenuous links to terrorists could be made with them too.
Talk about being gullable! At the end of the day, this is gutter politics. If people cared so much about his past associations, why not make a big fuss during his nomination? I'm sure Hilary would have mentioned it! As usual Palin has yet to talk about anything remotely connected to being vice president of the USA. This is a distraction from her lack of answers.
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#371. Cartponybefore: "Has America been overcome by riots- or 'a backlash' as you call it, Cunard? You live in America (I'm guessing the gated community variety) perhaps you can tell us?"
Since you have a computer and can read the news, then you must know the answer already. However, although the guilty verdict was handed down, the sentence was not, so there is no definitive answer to your question.
If I did live in a "gated community" (which I do not) what would that have to do with my concerns? Such communities are not limited to one ethnic background. Your ignorance about American life is appalling.
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Regardless of whether or not Bill Ayers meets the definition of a terrorist, there is no doubt that he was a radical Vietnam anti-war activist and that he planned extreme acts of violence to make his point.
Personally, I believe Obama demonstrated poor judgment when he accepted the "meet and greet" party given by Ayers to launch his political career in Chicago, but suggesting that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer or activist because he attended that party is an exaggeration unworthy of people aspiring for the highest office in our country.
I also believe that suggesting that he has links to terrorism because he and Ayers sat on the same board of two non-profit organizations is stretching reality, to put it mildly. Obama should be judged by his current behavior, not what he did a dozen years ago.
It is evident that the GOP has concluded that the only way they can win in November is by destroying Obama's credibility and by diverting attention from the fiscal and economic issues that afflict us, to fearmongering and innuendo.
Perhaps Obama should raise the Keating Five incident in which McCain played a prominent role for which he was admonished by Congress, or his behavior at the Naval Academy when the only thing that saved him was his Dad's influence.
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# 396 Teapot
You are right. Mud begets mud.
The new edition of Rolling Stone has an long, in-depth article about McCain's life and it does not make for a pretty read.
BBC bloggers might not read Rolling Stone, but a lot of people do and they are going to be startled to read the other side of the great hero's life story and personality.
Probably no one would have taken much notice (and it probably wouldn't even been published) if McCain had remained honourable but now that he has sunk so low quotes from it are going to be all over the place.
"Down and down, we go
Further down we go ...."
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287. At 02:35am on 05 Oct 2008, Fritz_Kraut wrote:
good points.
fritz I would add to your comments because if you are German you may be to polite to mention.
In my experience the Germans are , using the random sampling method of meeting people while travelling, some of the most racially sensitive people in Europe.
And whatever the History they had the Good decency to become aware of what happened and learn from history. Unlike so many other countries in Europe including the UK.
Just to point out to the MA's of the world , America now takes the biscuit .
They think the 60's was a lovefest , not a time of racial and uncivil tension.
The 50's the american dream time was even worse.
And now they never learned the lesson and want to go back to those days.
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394
DC
Again you know how it pains me as the crank to say just keep it up.
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Now I have to put in my $.02 on this whole Ayers
thing. There are some fine distinctions which
might not be obvious to someone who has
not lived in the US over a long period of time,
although I am sure that there are direct equivalents
in the UK.
There are really 2 issues involved: is Ayers an
unrepentant radical (the term used in the 60's
here for someone who advocated violent overthrow
of the US government), and what is the status
of his link with Obama?
We Americans tend to forgive those radicals who
turned around and dropped their violent ways.
Eldridge Cleaver was one such example.
But, as far as I know, Bill Ayers does not fall into
this category. I am basing my information on
an old article in the New York Times, in which
an interviewer painted Ayers as somewhat
unrepentant. The NYT has just printed a new
article here.
Unfortunately, my memory is not good enough
to be able to compare the newer article with
the older one, and I have been unable to find
it on the web.
Ayers seems to reminisce about his activities in
the Weathermen, and nowhere in the article does
he say that people in this day and age should
go out and bomb people.
The difference between Ayers and people like
Cleaver is that Cleaver felt sorry for the violence
which had happened in times past; Ayers is
not.
The reason why Hillary did not bring up the
issue is that she also had some links with
Ayers which she did not want to bring up.
This, in my opinion, does not damn her, because
she was never as dependent on that part of
the Chicago political machine as Obama.
Now, as far as the linkage between Obama
and people like Ayers, that is far more difficult
to establish. The Republicans have made a
serious charge here, and need to substantiate it
in detail.
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389. At 4:42pm on 05 Oct 2008, MizzBoudicca wrote:
A pile of total sycophantic drivel.
Change your name pathetic. you are NO fearless leader of the Tribes of Iceni.
To suggest that her stance on Drill Drill and her other environmental saving thrills(atv, snow mobile, helicopters to shoot from etc. ) the very same wasteful anti planetary concern lifestyle that has led america to rape the planet dry and bring a global catastrophe closer.
Some one who bankrupted their town but winked wrinkled their nose and smiled their way to the top .
You're american not from Britain .
Your no Iceni
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Justin,
it is sad that McCain has decided to leave the State of Michigan out of his campaign roster...But he had no choice!!!
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"I was born and raised in the Midwest and know honesty when I see it. Governor Palin is the Real Deal. I wish she were running for President."
Bod
If you had some health care in your country Bod you might be able to see better.
HEEERRRES BOD
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283: Jacksforge calls me racist for mentioning the Obama/Ayers connection. His logic seems to go like this: "Ayers bombed people because of racist oppression so that makes it OK and if you criticse the bombing, you are a racist."
Sadly for Jacksforge, as far as I can establish, Ayers justified his terrorism with reference to the Vietnam War, not racial segregation.
------------------------------------------------------
Once the war was over the country could get to the issues of race sorting it out.
Wars if you hadn't noticed are used by politicians to hide from the internal problems in their country.
United in war we stand.
Divided in peace we fall.
The war in Vietnam was such a war and distracted from the issues at home.
And even when you face hardship at home(like US now) you should give a crud about the people living in the war zone and remember they suffer more than you.
So as a nice man (probably) with empathy maybe mr Ayres just thought the war was so important.
First things first.
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#394. "Since absolutely no-one in America uses those last two words to describe a gross error (it being considered vulgar) then you must be British."
Had I bothered to read all the (30 or so) entries by vivaelcid I would have seen that in the subject "Debate Expectations", he wrote I'm actually an Englishman . . .
I cannot understand why someone who lives thousands of miles of away from the United States and cannot vote has such a prejudiced opinion about the candidates. The unswerving support for Mrs Palin in particular is amongst the oddest since it is obvious to all that she is the least qualified individual to be a president-in-waiting.
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If McCain-Palin supporters are so concerned about Mr Obama's past associations, it would be just as well for them to remember those of Mr McCain, as these older and more recent comments indicate. I wonder whether Mr Keating (who is still alive) is funneling any of his ill-gotten gains into the Republican campaign?
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# 402
Let's look at this whole business in another way. In fact Palin never mentioned Ayers. It is true that the NYT had regurgitated the Ayers story on Saturday but it turned out to be something of a damp squib because they couldn't dig up any dirt.
Palin then goes into battle saying that Obama has been pallying with terrorists and that he doesn't see America like she does.
Clever ploy - people immediately think of the sort of terrorism that is feared today, the Osama bin Laden type of terrorism. I don't think they're too worried about Ayers who seems to be living in dull respectability in a select part of Chicago trying to do good works.
It's terrorism by association that she is trying to put into peoples' minds.
I still believe that it will backfire on both her and McCain. Neither of them are saints. Her and her husband's documented links with the hard-line Alaska Independence Group can now be re-examined.
And by endorsing this sort of language from his would-be Vice President, McCain is throwing open the whole of his personally glamourised life story for detailed inspection. He may live to regret this weekend.
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"398. At 5:31pm on 05 Oct 2008, DominickVila wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Bill Ayers meets the definition of a terrorist, there is no doubt that he was a radical Vietnam anti-war activist and that he planned extreme acts of violence to make his point.
Personally, I believe Obama demonstrated poor judgment when he accepted the "meet and greet" party given by Ayers to launch his political career in Chicago, but suggesting that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer or activist because he attended that party is an exaggeration unworthy of people aspiring for the highest office in our country."
There is the small fact that Ayers is now a professor of English - hardly an act of terrorism.
And there is the other embarrassing fact that The queen gave convicted terrorist Nelson Mandela a medal - presumably she should be in Guantanamo bay.
Ayers was not and is not a terrorist. Simple fact.
"I also believe that suggesting that he has links to terrorism because he and Ayers sat on the same board of two non-profit organizations is stretching reality, to put it mildly. Obama should be judged by his current behavior, not what he did a dozen years ago. "
And even then it would seem to imply that everyone on those boards was similarly guilty but we do not see any prosecutions.
McCain should be investigated to see what information he gave the North Vietnamese -surely the act of a traitor.
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As a successful professional woman, I despair of the choice of Sarah Palin. She clearly is not ready for a serious role in domestic and international politics. If McCain thought that she would rally Clinton supporters, it was a serious mis-judgement. Women know the difference between fluff and competence. She is not competent enough to rally my vote. She will do much to set back serious, competent women in politics. I think all of the bad press is well-deserved and that the comedy programs are spot on!
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# 408 - David C.
We reached the same conclusion at the same time but it's the mods tea break so its taken a long time to come through !
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#409, 80%, I, too, believe that it will backfire.
The McCain/Palin team would have to have
some new, specific information to present
in order to be credible.
But, if they actually had something and put
it on the table, then that would actually change
the dynamics of the campaign.
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gunsandreligion,
I am really sorry people like you are part of this great country.
on the matter of Ayers, the man is a distinguished professor at University of Illinois.
Using your mccain a$%kissing views, the man is teaching our kids terrorism.
THE MAN IS TEACHING OUR KIDS TERRORISM????
Let me tell you what is teaching our kids terrorism. People like you who abandon common sense and knowledge for the sake of religious foundamental that are turning us into the same radicals we tell the world to fight.
Obama was 8yrs old when Ayers was involved in such activities, but if the world uses the logic of idiots like you than all people of all countries that have turned against governments which lead to great revolutions are traitors terrorists and unpatriotic. That would include all European countries that at different times challenged their existing corrupt governments.
You sir would be a good candidate for McCain's World Anti-Communist League which ended up being a forum of racists anti-semites and radicals like you.
Why don't you read about McCain first? THe hero that he never was. He was a POW and not the only one. If he was a hero than I am the Holy Pope.
And why don't you talk about Palin's ties to the Alaska's Independence Party?
Isn't that just as bad, as it goes against the ONLY ONLY ONLY holy book by which this country must be addressed. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
You sir are one sick man, a disgrace to generations of AMerica, and are undeserving of the sacrifice and promise made by the earlier generations.
You are ridiculous.
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I am so sorry for the ignorance that Americans show. It is a pity that America knows so little of fascism to applaud the fascist ideology of McCain.
What a stupid country we have become.
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goleooo, I think you have me pegged wrong.
All I'm saying is that any Obama-Ayers links
should be examined.
As far as Paleo-lady goes, I already raised the
issue some time back. I'm not a Paleo fan.
I think that all of these links should be examined.
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A Fictional Post:
I think expressing opinion is important. After all, nobody really knows anything about someone or what they really stand for. Yes, they are excellent at this and that but their past is mysterious and their true intentions are unknown. Better the devil you know than the one you don't. I can provide plenty of emotive metaphors and hyperbole but I can't provide anything substantive or a rational peer-reviewed analysis of the issues. I just have a feeling...
Prejudice?
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Comment No. 403 and 405 jacksforge,
Queen Boudicca is one of my heroes! I suspect that Boudicca would have liked Sarah Palin. Yes, indeed.
Tony Blair is one of my heroes, too.
In fact, I have a lot of British heroes.
Sorry that offends you. As to socialized medicine, most Americ