McCain and Palin's body language problem
The point is that Obama could lose Florida and Pennsylvania and Ohio and still win. John McCain and Sarah Palin need to find a crack somewhere else and work on it before returning to those big states in the final days. I can see why they are in Iowa even if local Republicans cannot.
This account of the Republican candidates' body language rings true - their joint appearances seem oddly unwarm.
I thought at first that it was the age difference - even at the Republican Convention they seemed not to be able to smile at each other on stage - but Mr McCain is awkward with her: she looks beyond him, literally and perhaps metaphorically as well...
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It's not age, it's not lack of "chemistry". It's simply Cindy who has explicitly warned John not to engage in very warm ways with Sarah, or else...
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Justin, they would do better to get Gov. Palin a national prime time address and national ads. They could easily fund it, if Palin sent out an email to GOP supporters asking for funds for that explicit purpose.
Grass root people will not contribute to the clueless GOP braintrust, but they would generously donate in support their one asset, Palin.
Thanks for the forum, BBC.
vin at www.wegotsarah.com
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Granted, the lady has seemed like an odd choice from this side of the pond since she was announced and that choice becomes more astounding with every speech she makes. However, was she not "McCain's choice", or was she foistered on him by Republican Party grandees?
Given the flop that is President Bush, the Republican King makers have some serious explaining to do!
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Unless Palin is living in a hermetically sealed bubble (not impossible!) she simply must be aware of all the comments about McCain having made a fatal mistake in choosing her as a running mate. So must he. This in turn means both must be wondering what the other is thinking about him/her. No wonder they look uncomfortable.
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I'm hardly surprised that there seems to be no "connection" between McCain and Palin.
If my memory serves me well they disagree fundamentally on many major policy points, from his initial platform at the beginning of the primaries.
Poor McCain is probably just in a ground hog day style nightmare where each morning he wakes up and Sarah Palin is still his running mate.
Poor, poor man.
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Michael S Malone: "The sheer bias in the print and television coverage of this election campaign is not just bewildering, but appalling. And over the last few months I've found myself slowly moving from shaking my head at the obvious one-sided reporting, to actually shouting at the screen of my television and my laptop computer.
But worst of all, for the last couple weeks, I've begun — for the first time in my adult life — to be embarrassed to admit what I do for a living. A few days ago, when asked by a new acquaintance what I did for a living, I replied that I was "a writer", because I couldn't bring myself to admit to a stranger that I’m a journalist...
I'm not one of those people who think the media has been too hard on, say, Gov. Palin, by rushing reportorial SWAT teams to Alaska to rifle through her garbage. This is the Big Leagues, and if she wants to suit up and take the field, then Gov. Palin better be ready to play. The few instances where I think the press has gone too far - such as the Times reporter talking to Cindy McCain's daughter's MySpace friends - can easily be solved with a few newsroom smackdowns and temporary repostings to the Omaha Bureau.
No, what I object to (and I think most other Americans do as well) is the lack of equivalent hardball coverage of the other side - or worse, actively serving as attack dogs for Senators Obama and Biden. If the current polls are correct, we are about to elect as President of the United States a man who is essentially a cipher, who has left almost no paper trail, seems to have few friends (that at least will talk) and has entire years missing out of his biography."
Webb, Hewitt, Price, Marshall and the rest of the huge BBC presidential election press pack take note.
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Wow, another link to the Fox News of the left. Is Justin angling for another job?
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The whole issue of the polling data has me confused. Obama is meant to be ahead but the numbers in the swing states supposedly suggest it is close. I have a feeling that McCain will lose the popular vote but win the electoral college. I may have read the numbers wrong but I think that there are meant to be large numbers of undecideds ?. I feel these will break for McCain as they tended to do for Clinton in the primaries.
Sorry if this seems like convuluted logic but trying to follow these different sets of numbers has my head swimming.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#8 MICKBURKE:
"Sorry if this seems like convuluted logic but trying to follow these different sets of numbers has my head swimming."
Time for the dail ad. Check out www.fivethrityeight.com, they give a very concise analysis of the polling and the current trends, basically at the moment all the movement in the polls is within the margin of error and it seems to suggest a 5-6% margin for Obama on polling day.
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"It's simply Cindy who has explicitly warned John not to engage in very warm ways..."
As I celebrate my 25th year of marriage, I will confirm that there really is nothing else to say.
Good one!
OBAMA '08
MICHELLE 2016
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Whilst I agree with RomeStu that it must be difficult for McCain and Palin to form a real bond when they differ on so many fundamental issues, I think it also shows that McCain is a typically old-fashioned man's man.
Cindy McCain never looks comfortable in her skin on these public occasions and has admitted as much by her withdrawal from Washington to Arizona for much of their married life.
It could be that McCain finds it difficult to relate to women as his equal - leading to this visible discomfort on both sides.
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Yes, there is an obvious bias in the print and television coverage. Yes, they are an unlikely "connection". Forget about the "Cindy" comment- Please!
They have allowed themselves to be put into an uncomfortabe union that very well should work out, given time. Unfortunately, time is short.
Remember, being in front of the national media can be very daunting. Very much like two dance partners suddenly brought together- both know the steps but are new to the routine. Capture their first steps together, and they look like amateurs.
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Hey seanspa you just made duhbuh's point. If he had said those things about fox news or the "right sided" media you would have been congradulating him all over the place. Talk about biased where is your fair and balanced?
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Thanks, Michael in #6.
I posted a similar comment on a CNN blog yesterday, and they refused to post it.
I also can hardly stand to watch most news channels now. I think if we surveyed the number of media attacks on McCain/Palin versus those on Obama/Biden, we'd see a very clear picure of bias in the mainstream media.
They commonly only mention polls that show Obama in the lead, rarely those that show a close race like the recent AP. It's disgusting and a threat to the American system.
There used to be a much stronger sense of honor in the business of journalism, along with all other businesses, for that matter. What happened to honor and integrity as things of import in our culture?
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"McCain and Palin's body language problem"
Now that's a non-starter for interesting comment.
I came across this paragraph from The New York Times in its endorsement of LBJ, just forty-four years ago. It could have been written today:
Rarely in modern times and never in recent years has there been a campaign in which the issues facing the nation have been so inadequately discussed by the two leading candidates; rarely has a campaign added so little to public knowledge; rarely has its end been so welcome.
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The lady will stab him so quick it is amazing.
Look"If it had been MY campaign"
The turn away etc.
the I've been used look on her face.
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The Republican party has created it's own Frankenstein.
By endlessly criticizing the Democrats for being 'too intellectual', or the left for being 'too elite', or Liberals for being 'too brainy for ordinary folk' they have no intellectuals, no elite and no brains left in their own party.
So the likes of Dubya and Palin rise to the top.
Neither of whom have any idea how to run a pee up in a brewery - never mind an economy.
It's obvious the Republican party now has a choice: keep going down this narrowing road or stop and reverse direction.
If it doesnt reverse, it will implode within a decade. Split into two. The racist, gun toting and God-fearing Right wing. And the traditional conservative left.
And that will be 'Goodbye to the GOP'.
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"The whole issue of the polling data has me confused. "
Exactly. All the "poll" stuff is most likely Mr. Rove spinning the wheels of the Destructinator. Only one poll matters, and WE ALL HAVE TO VOTE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
I'm in Oregon, mine will be in the box before November.
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Well, BBC ... it would be better if UK folks didn't try to vote
:)
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All of this discussion regarding Sarah Palin, as well as the choice of Palin by McCain to serve as his running mate, has to be placed into context. Some wonder whether the press has been too "tough" on Gov. Palin. Quite frankly, American voters knew very little or "nothing" about Gov. Palin until she was introduced to the Republican National Convention in early September 2008. She appeared charming, attractive and charismatic...but no one really knew who she was. As the weeks have unfolded and Gov. Palin was introduced to the "hungry" media, albeit selectively, it became increasingly clear, even by traditional members of the GOP, that she simply did not have the preparation, knowledge of the key national and international issues, as well as the basic intellect to serve as President (the role of VP is to be ready to assume the office of President). The national polls are not the result of "media bias" but, rather, the reaction to Gov. Palin's blatant lack of preparation for this level of politics at this particular moment. All polls indicate that Gov. Palin is very attractive to the GOP "base", i.e. perhaps 30% of the electorate, but certainly not to the majority of the American electorate. Had McCain chosen an experienced politician like Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, it is very clear that this race would be much closer than it currently is.
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they're both as stiff as a copper frog I just made.
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"Obama is meant to be ahead but the numbers in the swing states supposedly suggest it is close. I have a feeling that McCain will lose the popular vote but win the electoral college."
Actually, they don't show that at all. There are a large number of poll aggregators out there and they almost all show an Obama win. A huge number of them show Obama with more than a 60 electoral vote lead (more than 300 EVs). And in many of 2004's swing states, like NM and IA, Obama has a double digit lead. Red states that were supposed to be solidly Republican this year, like VA and IN, show Obama with a big lead. Even states as conservative as North Carolina are within reach. In fact, right now, he can lose both Ohio and Florida and easily win. All he needs to do is hold onto every state where he has a 7 pt lead or more in the polls.
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Justin -
Cards on the table first: I am a (non-American) dyed-in-the-wool leftie and Obama supporter, to the extent that the idea of him somehow not winning at this stage makes me almost physically ill. However, for the sake of your own credibility, I beg you to stop linking to the Huffington Post in every other blog entry.
Even though I usually agree with their analysis, it really is the equivalent of using Fox News as a favoured source. I'm sure you're sick of being accused of Obama bias in every comment thread, so why leave yourself wide open to it like this?
In the case of this post, why couldn't you have linked straight to the video on MSNBC? The HP's write-up added no new information. You'd still be accused of bias, of course, because MSNBC is part of Satan's MSM conspiracy, but at least it'd only be coming from hardcore wingnuts.
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Well Justin, considering how nasty the right wingers can get when they're cornered, you are sailing very close to the wind with your comments :-)
What they wont accept is that the observations and comments by journalists and commentators about their candidates are well founded; their tiny minds interpret it as bias.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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RepFla
"Very much like two dance partners suddenly brought together- both know the steps but are new to the routine. "
It seems like they both know the steps ... but to different dances!
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Looking at this from across the pond (and I should say I have been working with Americans more or less continuously for the last 30 years, so I don't form my views only on the dross churned out by the media, of whatever persuasion), I'm not sure it matters much who wins.
The simple fact is that America lost on 9/11. Since then it has devoted its national characteristics of energy and single-mindedness to the task of destroying itself, with a ludicrously irrelevant and ineffective military operation distracting attention from the developing domestic economic shambles.
The lose-lose choice for America now is between 4 more years of the same self-destruction, or 4 years of a tearing itself apart trying tp pretend not to be prejudiced against a president who isn't a Muslim, isn't black, and isn't a socialist. I guess the right wing attack dogs are being kept on a fairly tight leash right now, since they need to keep up a semblance of democratic respectability in the hope of winning votes. But as of Nov 5 when they have nothing more to lose politically, that will no longer apply.
On balance, I guess the rest of the planet is a bit more likely to remain habitable for the next four years if Obama wins, but that's a close call. Either way, my survival strategy is the same: carry on learning Mandarin. (Since much of the population of India already speaks and writes better English than either the Brits or the Americans, I think I can get by without learning Hindi as well).
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To all those McCain/Palin supporters complaining about media bias: that is not your problem. Your problem is obviously a very bad vp pick, very few policies, and an extremely badly run campaign. McCain could have done very well if he had made some different choices but he did'n't and is suffering. Blaming the press is a red herring ...
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I might ad that the right wing dominance of talk radio does not seem to have helped either ... the GOP is tearing itself apart ...
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A country (system) that could elect Bush twice might elect McCain/Palin.
Civilized folk need to speed up organizing an alternative World leadership!
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Someone mentioned a rightwing GOP braintrust. This got my attention. Who has the rightwing brain, where did you put it, and will you PLEASE return it? The GOP has lost whatever brain it had and no one knows where to find it! (Someone more clever than I should write a "Mother Goose" rhyme to that effect, don't you think?)
Also, a great big North West "Howdy!" to MorningDude, a fellow Oregonian and probably a fellow city-of-roses resident!
Obama/Biden '08!
--
Angus MacLeighan
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#6, 15
Hark?
'Media Bias. Media Bias'
It's the mating call of the lesser spotted loser.
This years camapign has been interesting. in 2004 and to a degree in 2000the media did a terrible job. They didn't fact check and they allowed the smears and smearers to just keep piling on.
This year has been different. A lot of fact checker organizations have been developed and, horror, are being quoted by the mainstream media. We don't have the hideous spectacle of the Swift Boat guys making stuff up to impunge a candidates character and getting away with it.
Not that the parties have not tried, the McCain campaign in particular has been far more misleading and recently have thrown everything including the kitchen sink at the candidates. And the media has reported it. The problem is that the accusations around Ayers, Rev Wright et al have all proved to be tenuous or factually inaccurate. The media have tried to dish some dirt but there doesn't seem to be much there.
On the other side, Obama has not had to go so far into the gutter because McCain has run a terrible campaign. He picked a running mate without doing his homework into her background. Then he lets her go on a shopping spree with campaign money. He holds up Joe the Pumber as his mascot, another individual he didn't check into. His brother is dumb enough to dial 911 and argue with the operator because he is stuck in traffic, putting others at risk. Finally one of his campaign workers makes up a scurrilous story about a mugger and looks unhinged (not that anyone can vet the thousands of volunteers on their staff, but this young lady does seem to be confused at best).
It is way to easy for the media to run these stories because they are factual and make someone look stupid.
The economist ran an interesting article this week about Republicans voting Obama. If the Reps blame the media, blame the candidate (theirs), blame race (as Limpbaugh did) and keep blamestorming then the party is likely to tear itself apart. Because the real issue is they are out of ideas, have been driven too far right by the crazies, have terrible policies and can only find terrible candidates because they need folks who 'believe'.
The Republican party has to change, or die.
Pundit Sam
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What's this about bias? Agree with her or not, Sarah Palin has had MASSES of coverage on the mainstream media - despite giving but a handful of interviews. She has had numerous opportunities to tell us about her vision, her policy positions, and demonstrate her knowledge. Maybe most of the talk is about mooses, dudes, sixpacks, wardrobes, ethics inquiries, Russia, Tina Fey and Alaskan Independence, but you cannot say she has not had coverage, or that the media is not interested in her. She is the one who does not want to talk to them.
I have hardly seen Joe Biden mentioned at all in recent weeks, and when his name comes up it invariably feels like "oh, we'd better mention Biden too." I don't think the Democrats are too concerned about that, and I think John McCain might prefer his running mate to receive the same level of disinterest!
Palin is more like Obama, someone relatively new and untested on the national scene, someone who enthuses her supporters and terrifies her enemies, someone everyone is talking about, someone in the media spotlight and being judged, not just by the media, and her party, but by the country and the world.
Obama has faced the same challenges as Palin and remains popular and largely unsullied despite an immense amount of garbage that has been thrown at him - things equally as trivial as Sarah Palin's wardrobe. My opinion is Palin has herself to blame as much as, if not more than, the way the media are reporting her. So long as she picks and chooses her interviews, and fails to impress in them, she is inviting negative coverage.
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Here is my suggetion for a possible winning strategy for the GOP: Reform of the tax system, removing as many tax credits as possible but lowering taxes for the middle class at the same time making less likely that the wealthy can avoid taxes by using various dodges. Overall making it simpler and easier to administrate (saving money) and also easier to understand by the general public. Marginally reduce corporate taxes, but removing many tax breaks except those designed to accomplish specific goals like investment in green energy. Tackle military spending, (unlike Obama he would be able to get away with this potentially saving billions of dollars. It is not clear that the US needs such a massive standing army especially as the commit to Iraq begins to wind down. Over the next few years a smart foreign policy could see Russia and the US as partners,nuclear arsenals could be reduced (more savings), and the current missile system for eastern europe could be scrapped.
Pick a decent running mate - Romney/Lieberman etc, he would piss some followers off but it would be a strong ticket.
Be positive and offer hope. No negative campaigning.
Some kind of decent plan to address Health, education and the nations infrastructure.
Accept the need for government but promise streamlining and extra accountability at all levels ...
There is more but ...
Thoughtful republicans must be desparate ...
Maybe next time guys .. : )
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They could've waited until 5th November to completely disintegrate; I've not got my popcorn ready yet.
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Watch the visual record made since McCain's ill-fated attempt to wrest the presidency from Bush. In his joint appearances with Bush his body language is distinctly uncomfortable. He doesn't seem to like him.
It's been rumored that Palin may have been the RNC's choice and not McCain's. If that's true, she could be a living symbol of his continuing loss of autonomy. So maybe he just doesn't like her and is trying hard to hide it?
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'unwarm' ? is that a bit like 'coolly' ? hmm..
i suppose not, that might be something else entirely..
but what a showdown Hillary vs Palin might be in 2012...
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unwarm?
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Martin Luther King's 'dream' is about to come true! All world-citizens see in Obama's forthcoming victory an undeniable sign of a world moving forward. He pledges change. But whether he will be true to such a promise is immaterial; the world will automatically change with Obama as US President. The 'mental shackles' weighing so heavily on many of our brothers around the world would be wearing away for sure. My dear Martin Luther, wherever you are, do accept our gratitude. We thank you for making us dream with you.
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Nothing but negative comments about McCain and Palin from this website.
The BBC need to be more fair and balanced because all I see is what is all good about Obama and what is all bad about McCain.
The Left are so scared of This ticket,McCain and Palin, that they have to resort to personal and sexist attacks.The left have nothing left going for them.
Sarah Palin scares the left.She is fresh and non compromising. she wants to ruffle the feathers of the elitest and old boys network in Washington.The laughable point they made about her clothes costing $150,000 was desperation in it`s extreme.
Who is really pulling Barack Obama`s strings? Certainly not the Joe the Plumbers of this World.The answer may be in Washington
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What Americans need to realise is that they have one last chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the rest of the world by electing Barack Obama as President. Should they fail to do so the outlook is bleak. An increasingly isolated country, both economically and politically ,that will drive business to Asia and the middle-east and young people into the arms of Al Quaeda. An invasion of iran under McCain? Probable. Under Obama? No Way. In terms of foreign policy,when are they going to grow up and realise life isn't like it is in the movies?
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I can spell, was typing in a hurry!
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as to all the comments about a biased media in an election to me is pointless. i remember in 2004, media houses like cnn had more stories highlighting the strength of the Bush campaign and more stories highlighting attack ads on Kerry (like swift boat vets against kerry) and Kerry's apparent weakneses.
the fact is that the media is all about ratings and getting the story of the day. They smell weakness from a mile out and focus on it as much as possible.
The indecisiveness of mccain's campaign, the contradictions to mccain made by palin (she seems to agree with obama on many issues and not mccain), the infighting in the campaign, the GOP defectors, the GOP criticising their own VP candidate, the clums way in which they introduced Palin to America, giving her the hardest interviews first,all makes for a great dramatic story, and the media pounces on it.
for example:
we cant forget how the media followed jeremiah wright (a nobody) around even showing his speech live at some charity dinner that is of zero importance to the MSM. They smelled a story so they followed.
At a time when mccain should be making his own headlines, he spends most of the time talking about obama, and in some ways is actually promoting obama's ideas the more he talks about it( the economy is so bad, 'spreading the wealth' doesnt sound too bad to someone losing their job and their home).
on a day when obama was off the campaign trail, mccain made no headlines, instead one of his volunteers stole the day with her fabricated attack.
if mccain is the focus of negative media attention right now its because they brought it onto thmselves. they have done a poor job at managing their public image in the midst of this campaign.
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Drudge52 (40), are you living on this planet?
If you are unhappy with the postings on this site find a right wing blog where everyone will agree with you. As I've said above, and others too in different ways, The McCain/Palin ticket has only themselves to blame, they could have been competitive but they have obviously made the wrong choices. The media is not responsible! They and the GOP are.
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#40
It is laughable to me that you call lefties desperate. Which campaign is desperate is blatant just by looking at the two newest political commercials:
Obama:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/defining-moment_ad/
McCain:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
One promotes a plan for the future and a hope for something better. The other is fueled by fear and smearing.
I'll let you figure out which is which.
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We have seen nothing of Biden recently because the Dems have two people on their ticket: Obama and Obama.
Obama wants no one to steal his limelight opportunity.
Any good oritor can fill a stadium of people willing to listen.
There are many people in History who could fill stadiums but turned out not so nice in the end.
John McCain is someone who can be trusted and what you see is what you get.
What do you really get with Barack Obama?
Well we do know that he has voted present on umteenth occasions in the Senate.
Can Obama make a decision one way or the other?
Can we trust Obama to make a decision in a crisis?
Can Obama make the right judgements.
His history seems to say no.
We need a president who is prepared to make the right judgements and that is John McCain.
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#32. Samtyler1969: "The Republican party has to change, or die."
Just as did the Labour Party in Britain, and now the Conservatives there, who are trying to revive their fortunes and update their policies - as opposed to relying on a dislike of the present government to return to power.
Whether the Republicans can truly move to the centre is debatable; with the Evangelical movement and other churches behind them, there seems to be little possibility of meaningful change. The phrase "compassionate conservatism" has done nothing to indicate that there is anything compassionate about them - far too much mean-spiritedness which negates those claims. For example, just watch or listen to Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin or Sean Hannity to give an taste of this; I'll leave Bill O'Reilly out since occasionally he does make an attempt to be fair. They have a pack of baying dogs following them ready to attack anyone who disagrees with their bigotry and ill-founded opinions. I can't see these Republicans altering - a tiger cannot change its stripes and - neither can an elephant live without its trunk.
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No one has mentioned the report on Politico which claims that Palin is unhappy with her Republican "handlers" and is threatening insurgency within the campaign.
The report, which seems to be confirmed by several insiders, has a certain resonance as Palin has a well recorded history of dumping on the people who have assisted her to prominence.
If they start internal warfare, rather than just mutually bad body language, at this stage of the campaign they are going to show themselves up as an unworkable President/Vice President ticket. And poor John McCain will only have himself to blame.
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The "coolness" that is evident when McCain and Palin appear in public together has nothing to do with Cindy, but with the fact that Sarah is already looking at 2012 and does not want an albatross hanging around her neck. Republican conservatives never liked McCain, and Sarah must make sure she can preserve her credibility with the base of the GOP to clinch the nomination four years from now. As for McCain, Sarah represents everything he is not. They are, in effect, an odd couple joined by an arrangement of convenience rather than conviction or mutual respect.
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why do the republicans think that Palin has the nous to take over as president when McCain dies in term or goes doolally like Reagan?
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#34 selfevidentrut..
plan sounds good but is the complete oppposite of the republican party's ideology.
they have never been a party who's priority was the middle class, even in this campaign in all 3 debates the middle class was not mentioned once by McCain. Why? The notion of campaigning to the 'middle class' is just too way off base for an established republican like McCain, the idea is foreign to him.
the foundation of conservative ideology is keeping the wealth among those who have it, protecting their status , maintaining the status quo, and then letting the wealthy decide who it is they want to help to advance in society. thats the trickle.
a poor man who votes for a republican is voting against his own economic well being.
Thats is why the repubs try to appeal to the middle class by talking about religion or culture and igniting culture wars because once the topic goes to helping those same middle class folks get some extra money in their pockets or surviving day to day expenses, they look bad.
the economy is a losing topic for republicans in america hence why they always try to avoid the topic.
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McCain and Palin have very off-putting body language.
With McCain, it's the use of his hands, and the angry looks on his face. He looks like he's trying to use his limbs to fire up his brain through some kind of locomotive energy.
And Palin... for a social conservative, she sure his flirtacious. The way she winks and tweaks her face is either horrific or endearing, depending on your dispositions towards her.
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#40 Drudge52 -
Of course! The GOP campaign isn't a total fiasco in any, any way! We just THINK it is because we're all so SCARED of Sarah Palin and her revolutionary approach to politics. It's interesting that being "fresh and non compromising" can so often come across to us scared, ignorant, leftist elite types as not knowing anything about anything. Of course, Obama's massive ongoing poll lead is just a product of the American public's unacceptable liberal bias.
Also, let's quit going on about her clothes! It's not as though there's anything else about her to criticise, as a political candidate (ignorance, inexperience and hypocrisy, for example, just to pick three totally hypothetical and ludicrous examples out of the air). We're such sexists! Can't you see, like the enlightened Republicans, that women running for high office shouldn't be subject to any serious scrutiny whatsoever?
Oh, unless they're Hillary Clinton, obviously. In that case, go to town, my friends.
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in "reality." And reality has a well-known liberal bias." - Stephen Colbert
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40 Drudge52 wrote:
[a] The standard 'BBC = Lefties' whinge
[b] "The Left are so scared of This ticket,McCain and Palin, that they have to resort to personal and sexist attacks.The left have nothing left going for them."
From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/24/AR2008102402698.html?hpid=topnews
"A majority of likely voters in a new Washington Post-ABC News national poll now have unfavorable views of the Alaska governor, most still doubt her presidential qualifications "
Yup, I'd say the 'Left' are pretty terrified.
And it's not the 'Left' who are basing their attacks on what people McCain and Palin knew slightly were up to in the 60's - or whether they're 'like us' or 'pro-America'.
I think Drudge52 is well-named
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She can look beyond all she likes - no American in their right mind is going to trust her to be in The White House.
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To#12Eightpercent
I think you hit that nail squarely on the head.
If you examine the era and culture into which McCain was born, women were supportive, caring for the home, and promoting the careers of their husbands. They did not compete with men in the work place, in the military or in politics. He has married women for their physical beauty and also their ability to advance him in his goals. Why should he consider Palin any differently?
Unfortunately, the brunette 'barbie' may have an agenda of her own that does not include him.
About body language, in general this tells a lot both about his relationship with his wife and also with Palin. I am not sure that he really likes women very much.
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28. selfevidenttruths,
Unfortunately media bias is a self-evident truth in the reporting on this election. The BBC is an excellent example of this bias, from this radically pro-Obama blog to the general BBC coverage from the beginning of the primaries in January till the present.
Back then I was listening to an enthusiastic debate on World Have Your Say on the World Service about the prospects of Hilary Clinton vs. Barack Obama. Near the end of the hour one of the guests mentioned that they had not yet discussed the Republicans. Up to that point I had assumed that the Republican primaries must have been scheduled for another day. I then realised that WHYS was so besotted with the concept of a race between the first female and first "black" Democratic nominee for president that it had completely neglected the Republican contest. That set the pattern for the BBC's coverage for the entire race.
Originally the excuse was that the Democrats' contest was of more historic interest. Yes, it was, but that was no reason to carry on virtually ignoring the Republican primaries. Then the BBC was presented with a tailor made excuse when other Republicans dropped out and McCain became the only contestant. Only when Obama ousted Clinton did the BBC turn its reluctant gaze towards McCain, throwing him a contemptuous bone of coverage here and there while following Obama around like groupies at a rock concert.
Bias? It would be difficult to imagine how the BBC could have been more biased in its coverage. It positively excelled in partisan coverage, not only in the amount of time devoted to Obama, but in its praising of Obama and disparaging of McCain. This continued in the same vein, of course, when the VPs were nominated. The attacks unleashed by the BBC on Sarah Palin, from the moment she took to the stage, have been disgraceful. Can anyone point to similar attacks by the BBC on Joe Biden? No, of course not.
Has the BBC influenced American voters? Difficult to say, but probably not to any great extent. Has the BBC failed in its obligation to provide balanced, informed coverage of the election? Yes, without a single shadow of a doubt.
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Hi Justin,
It's been noticed elsewhere, of course, and it is true. Ms. Palin reminds me of my sister in many ways, a good looking gal, no doubt, and with a perky character that hides a bitter vindictiveness, endless envy, in short: desperate narcissism. She is also a borderliner.
I do not wish to diagnose Ms. Palin. But one thing is sure: she is a narcissist. And she hates endlessly. She cares as much about John McCain as she cares about the country, which is in a word: not. There is only Palin and her ambitions and she will try to achieve them at the expense of anything and anyone.
She is not dumb, as many point out, but she is ignorant and intellectually lazy. And she is incapable of taking responsibility, which is a very nasty trait of many religiously obsessed people. The pointedfinger will ultimately stop at god after passing by the liberals, the press, the communists, the socialists, the San Franciscans, any bugaboo you can think up, in fact. But not Sarah Palin.
And mcCain can't stand her any more, and she knows it. If they lose -- I still doubt my fellow Americans can shake off their timorousness and vote for a decent man like Obama -- it will have been mostly because of her. But McCain will probably blame her in petto rather than blame himself for picking Mama Moosekiller. As for Palin, she says she will blame god, but she will probably blame the Media. Like that she doesn't have to read a few books and drop the blinders in order to run again at some later date.
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Oooops seem to have lost a post, nevermind it was just a dig at Drudge52
moderate (51), I suppose you're right, maybe a new party will arise ...
looking forward to Nov4!
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46 Drudge52 [again]
"Any good oritor (sic) can fill a stadium of people willing to listen. There are many people in History (sic) who could fill stadiums but turned out not so nice in the end."
Yawn. Here we go. That old favourite. 'Obama is Hitler in disguise'
Sure he is.
Nurse! The screens!
And that reminds me. Does anyone remember, a few short weeks ago, a fave Republican theme. 'Obama's an empty suit. He's only good for making speeches. He's nothing without a teleprompter in front of him. Just wait till the debates.'
And now that he's cleaned the clock of the far more experienced McCain in 3 debates, according to every reputable poll of voter response - you don't hear that one so much. Funny, huh?
In fact, another thing I miss, from c early September, was Reps constantly linking to polls showing the temporary 'blip' for McCain after his convention.
Strangely enough, we hear much less from the Reps about polls now.
Except to say that they can't be trusted.......
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Are any republicans seriously thinking of Palin for 2012? ... LOL!
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Obama struggled to close the deal against Hillary Clinton and had to rely on the super delegates to get the nomination.
McCain is a fighter who will never give up.
I prefer a man who will never give up and will fight for His country, to someone with no proven track record of positive decision making under pressure.
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I have no idea why McCain would try to win Iowa or Pennsylvania. His only chances would be Ohio, Florida, Missouri and North Carolina.
There is something seriously wrong with him.
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I want to know something else:
1) What moved the BBC to put the story about McCain accusing Obama of something with taxes as the top story tonight? That is very old news.
2) Yesterday, in an interview on NBC Nightly News, Brian Williams asked Palin whether she felt abortion clinic bombers were terrorists."I don't know if you're going to use the word 'terrorist' there," she answered. I guess Charlie Gibson wastoo stunned to ask: Well, what would she call them.... Freedom fighters? Like Reagan called those monstrous meth-selling Contras?
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62 Drudge52 wrote:
"I prefer a man who will never give up and will fight for His country, to someone with no proven track record of positive decision making under pressure."
Don't worry Drudgey - we all know who you prefer.
As an African-American son of an impoverished single parent, I'd suggest much of Obama's life has been 'positive decision making under pressure'. As of course has his beating one of the most feared and effective political machines in the US - the Clintons. And probably beating one of the must vicious and unscrupulous attack machines in the world - the Republicans, and their various alumni on the Web, on the radio, on Fox, and of course on blogs like this.
Which candidate has stayed cool, calm and focussed?
And look at the one really big decision each candidate had to make.
Obama chose Biden.
McCain chose Palin.
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Truetoo (57), hey nice first line! I stand by my post, but to some degree I would agree with you. I think the standards that used to apply at the BBC no longer do except in certain quarters. And yes they should give equal coverage to the campaigns, but that would only highlight the dismal campaign that the GOP is running. To report that is not bias, it would just appear to be the truth.
As for Sarah Palin, she is just not qualified and any reporting is eventually going to show that up. much of the GOP now thinks it was a mistake, hence republicans endorsing Obama, who by the way has been under intensive scrutiny for a year now, as is proper.
Here's to an improvement of standards at the BBC, but it has nothing to do with the problems of McCain and Palin ...
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Drudge prefers a fighter who will never give up. It's lucky those who share Drudge's views haven't been running your country the last 30 years otherwise you'd still be stuck in Vietnam, never mind Iraq.
McCain is tenacious, and that can be an admirable quality in a man. Unfortunately it can also be a liability when you are wrong. Most people think the country needs to move in a new direction, not even more forcefully in the wrong direction.
As for Obama "not being able to make a decision" - he seems to have made all the right ones so far in his campaign, a self-evident truth given that he appears to be on course towards winning. McCain has admittedly made lots of decisions, almost all of them wrong. Choice of running mate, suspending his campaign, use of attack ads, referencing a guy who turns out to be neither a Joe nor a plumber, and according to Sarah Palin (who's judgement is on a whole different level of questionable!) withdrawing from Michigan.
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#62 Drudge52
"I prefer a man who will never give up and will fight for His country, to someone with no proven track record of positive decision making under pressure."
Well McCain has a track record recently but its hardly a good one. Still it is your right to support McCain, unfortunately for you a majority of your fellow americans feel differently.
Also McCain winning his party nomination so easily says more about the quality of his opponents than his abilities. Face it he was chosen as the man to beat Clinton, and since the Dems picked Obama he's had a fight on his hands just to get Republicans to vote for him.
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# 57
This blog has regularly been accused of bias by one side or the other for months now - sometimes by both sides on the same day.
I have seen no "attacks unleashed by the BBC on Sarah Palin" although I have witnessed the reporting of some salient facts such as her interview on oath by the Troopergate investigation and probably even the $150,000 wardrobe/hairdo/make-up which, let's face it, is a fact we deserve to be told about.
Someone mentioned on this blog earlier today the strong right-wing bias that exists on talk radio which probably explains some of the shouty attacks which land here at certain times of the day (usually around pub closing time on both sides of the pond). Not to mention some of the wilder and woollier conspiracy theories which are, I believe, a speciality of the outer reaches of talk radio shows.
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Barack Obama`s chance encounter with Joe the plumber is a pivitol moment in this election.Obama`s `Spread the Wealth` comment shows what his future agenda will be.
Is the US ready for a socialist agenda?
I really hope not for all our sakes.
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Rasmussen had Obama up by 8 in Iowa yesterday, which is a little less than some other polls. However, it should not be enough to get McCain genuinely interested.
After what he said about srapping ethanol subsidies, I'm not sure what he is doing here.
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#57, trueto. from my perspective, since McCain won the primaries I was waiting for McCain to release his platform on which he will campaign. Im still waiting.
I remember watchint the repub primaries, and it had very low intensity, and for the most part was a typical republican discussion.
At a time when many were complaining about losing jobs, not having health insurance, and about the iraq war, the candidates spent very little time challenging each other on these issues. apparently they all agreed that the iraq war was going well,the fundamentals of the economy is strong, and the health care system .... well i didnt hear much about that so i suppose it wasnt an issue.
WHat i heard a lot of, was talk about religous values, who beleived in the bible more and a big discussion about row v wade. It was a big issue election but the candidates were out of touch with that reality.
SO of course the republicans sparked little interest beyond their base, they were not talking about the issues most americans were talking about. Actually their base was not very interested either until Palin came on board, although i dont think it has been enough because at the moment they are completely disgusted with the performance of their party.
McCain did not know beforehand what it is he was proposing to the american people,he ran expecting voters to look at his military record and senate record and feel he is entitled to be president for years of service. (all while not deviating from the norm of the last 8 years of republican control).
McCain's campaign has lacked any focus whatsoever, he has run on zero issues and instead based his entire campaign on criticising obama's ideas.
its so obvious that even republican pundits have slowly started to acknowledge this. McCains talking points has changed every week whil Obama has stayed on point with his message. Thats why McCain is losing.
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Justin, I really think you need to get a life. You've been covering this campaign too long and you're running out of ideas. Body chemistry!? Good grief!
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The Palin Insurgency grows
Peace and entertainment
ed
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#60 john-In-Dublin -
Great points. Like so many losing teams, the conservatives on here really have developed a deeply unappealing backed-into-a-corner attitude, unable to respond with anything except accusations of bias.
The fact is, the election is going very well for Obama at the moment, so it would be dishonest for the BBC to pretend it's a completely open race. Justin Webb, for the record, has published several blog entries recently on the theme of "how McCain could turn it around", including giving over one to an embedded video of a right-wing commentator. If that's not giving the right their say, I don't know what is.
#57 (TrueToo) says that the BBC gave much more coverage to the Democratic primaries. Could this conceivably be because said primaries dragged on for months and months longer than the Republican ones, and were a much closer, harder-fought race?
If (and it still is an if) McCain loses on the 4th, Republicans casting around for someone to blame will inevitably lay much of the fault at the door of (say it along with me, kids...) the evil MSM. However, media bias does not throw elections.
If the media really are such a destructive force for the right, why have Republicans won seven of the last ten US elections and controlled Congress from 1994 to 2006? Oh, wait, I know this one - when George W Bush wins, it's DESPITE of media bias and a victory for truth and the American way. When Bill Clinton/Barack Obama (?) win, it's BECAUSE of media bias, hoodwinking the American people into voting for someone they don't really want.
Put simply: the media could, if it wanted to, give more coverage to one side, play up some stories while ignoring others or give a particular candidate a hard time.
It couldn't, however, make the Republican party score repeated own goals and write Sarah Palin's answers for her. The most embarrassing Palin moments have generally resulted when she's faced with the kind of mild, predictable questions she really should have been prepared for. "Which newspapers do you read?" is hardly a tough one, and the infamous Couric interview was pretty friendly; the trap she walked into was entirely of her own making. Sarah Palin has been subjected to the same level of scrutiny as any political candidate, especially one previously unknown on the national stage, and has simply failed to live up to the challenge.
Finally, the other side of the coin. Obama is repeatedly referred to as having had a "free ride", publicity-wise. We keep hearing about how everyone was blinded by his charisma and eloquence (read: witchcraft), and never once questioned his credentials. However, this just doesn't hold water.
Ever since he became a frontrunner, Obama has constantly faced accusations from his opponents that he is a secret Muslim, that he suppressed his birth certificate, that he hates white people etc. etc. etc., and has been able to answer all of these. For example, the Jeremiah Wright controversy was huge story that threatened to cost him the Democratic nomination. Rather than pretend the issue didn't exist, he gave one of the most honest, dignified speeches I've seen in recent political history (google "A More Perfect Union") and rationally addressed the problem.
The right may be outnumbered in the media, but they do have plenty enough outlets. Are you really saying that if a serious, substantial piece of dirt existed about Obama, it wouldn't be headline news? Instead, all they have is straws to clutch at, and if they lose, they will deserve to.
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I'd like to link to a newspaper so far ignored by Justin. Here is a story illustrating what appeals to me about the US - community spirirt. I just never experienced this in the UK. Not to say it doesn't exist, but small town America does it so well.
Did I ever mention that I have a 'soccer' playing son? Go Sting!
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Just two things:
1/ The Republican party shouldn't be disappointed that "only" 45% think Sarah Palin would make an effective president; they should be amazed and delighted, it's an unbelievably high figure.
2/ She gives as one example of how dangerous a President Obama would be the fact that he is willing to "talk to the President of Iran." The interviewer didn't ask what dangerous events would follow such talks but it certainly baffles me. I do, however, see that NOT talking to leaders of other countries, however much we disapprove of their regimes, could be a dangerous option. Has she heard of Russia, China, North Korea etc etc etc etc ????? I seem to remember America talking to them and relations improving.
On the other hand, I know sod-all about ice hockey.
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For crying out loud Drudge, give it a break will you? All this "liberal bias". The BBC is far less biased than most, if not all of the US news stations. Besides, this is a blog, not an official BBC view.
The media aren't ganging up on Palin, she's destroying herself. She's a vacuous airhead with no concept of the real world. Every time she opens her mouth words without substance come out. She's far too ignorant for the position she's running for. McCain has no policy. Talk about flip flopping, he changes tack about twice a week. They're destroying themselves, even Fox news or Rush himself can't help them.
Frankly, the Republican party need to lose for their own sake and the sake of the country. We're on a rudderless ship with no vision. The Reps need to take a long, hard look at themselves and really question, is this who we want to be, is this what the American people want? Why have they allowed themselves to court the religious right and neocons? What happened to the USA that the world looked to? Why did we let ourselves get into this situation? It's time for a change, the Reps need to think long and hard, then come down on the side of liberty, justice, progress and self respect.
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Personnel is Political
Peace and Jobs
ed
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#70. Drudge52: "Obama`s `Spread the Wealth` comment shows what his future agenda will be. Is the US ready for a socialist agenda?"
socialist, socialist, socialist, socialist, SOCIALIST or SOCIALIST - it doesn't matter how you write it or say, it is just not so! The number of times the word has been used is extraordinary - and still the users don't know what socialism is. Mr Obama is not a socialist - repeat, not a socialist. Get used to it.
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#71 yep, scrapping subsidies will just hurt iowa farmers, which is why they are not supporting mccain. He lost iowa when he decided that was one of the answers to fixing the economy.
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StephenDerry wrote.
As for Obama "not being able to make a decision" - he seems to have made all the right ones so far in his campaign, a self-evident truth given that he appears to be on course towards winning. McCain has admittedly made lots of decisions, almost all of them wrong. Choice of running mate, suspending his campaign, use of attack ads, referencing a guy who turns out to be neither a Joe nor a plumber, and according to Sarah Palin (who's judgement is on a whole different level of questionable!) withdrawing from Michigan.
Well.Obama is good at talking the talk but can he walk the walk?
Where is the substance?We do know he believes in socialism and only a chance encounter brought that out of him.
If you support Obama then you must believe in socialism itself and of course you are entitled to your view but is the US ready for such a radical change.I hope not.
I believe Hugo Chavez came close to endorsing Obama tonight.A very scarey thought.
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# 72 ~ moderate
Good analysis - and one thing you did not mention was the electricity generated by the Clinton/Obama debates which sucked all oxygen from the Republican campaign (and McCain, if you remember, just sat back and did nothing).
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Kimmel spoofs the tension and Ferguson is fab
Late night roundup
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More bad news (for Republicans)
Peace and a fair winded
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#48
80%,
Why would anyone be surprised that Sarah is threatening insurgency within her own party? That's how she became a Governor in the first place, by turning on her own party. Maybe she thinks if she does that she can become President?
Michelle sounded hot today on the Radio address.
Saucey Sam
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Long time reader, first time poster.
Mr Webb - an odd choice of subject. I don't need my pres and vice-pres to be comfortable with each other. I just need them both to be capable and smart.
However, wading into the fray:
No. 40. Gov Palin doesn't just scare the left. I believe she scares the moderates. In fact she probably scares moderate republicans far more than she scares any democrats, because she reflects a minority of potential republican voters in an election where the outgoing republican president has a similarly narrow appeal. Which leads on to...
No. 62 Sen Obama and Sen Clinton fought an incredibly tight nomination race. One or other would have needed the superdelegates to swing behind them to get a result. Are you suggesting that a close run primary is a bad thing? Sen McCain had a relatively easy ride - I suspect that was due to centerist republicans favoring him over some of the other candidates. I believe Sen McCain's mistake was to choose a running mate, and a campaign tone, which scared the very people who had given him the nomination in the first place. Your view is that the experience of a veteran is preferable to that of a lawyer and community organiser - I respect that difference of opinion, but on the question of decision-making prowess under pressure, I think Sen McCain demonstrated a failure on that score when he selected Gov Palin.
I make no judgement on Gov Palin's fitness for the role, but I would respectfully suggest that if Sen McCain had chosen almost anyone else who was being discussed as a contender, we'd be looking at a rather different race. A closer race. And I happen to think that would have been healthier.
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#83
Drudge,
I know we've done this before on thsi blog but let's try again. What is it that Obama has stated that is socialist?
Inquisitive Sam
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This blog is a no comment. I think its redundant to comment on the body language of Mcain and Palin.
This Blog and some comments on it are very wayward. what are you guys now, psychologists??
Mcain is male, whilst Palin is female and they are both happily married with children. how do you expect them to behave in public, hold hands and hug??
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The dynamic duo of McCain-Palin have shown how to handle the media. She articulates what he mumbles. And he babysits her through the "one-on-one" TV interviews.
She has accused Barak Obama of "palling around with terrorists", but refused to call people who bomb abortion clinics by the same name.
Some Vietnamese civilians and ex-soldiers who retrieved John McCain from his wrecked aircraft said that he was never a victim of torture or violence as a POW.
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# 87 Sam
First bit - exactly.
Michelle bit - heard the address - very classy.
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good candidates, good policies, and good campaigns have nothing to fear from the media.
: )
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I must admit that I will be forever grateful to the McCain campaign for making me aware of the fact that average plumbers and, indeed, the American middle class at large make over $250,000 a year. I always knew I wasn't wealthy, I just didn't realize how poor I am!
What surprises me the most about Sarah Palin's wardrobe is not the fact that campaign funds were used to help her in that regard, let's face it, women are held to a different standard than men when it comes to personal appearance and her limited personal assets precluded her from dressing and looking like a person running for VP; but the decision made by the GOP to transform their most formidable asset into something she is not, Republican social conservatives like Palin because of her religious convictions, family values, and because they could identify with her strengths and weaknesses. When GOP strategists decided to address the concerns of intellectuals by transforming Palin into a more traditional female politician they undermined the image of authenticity and candor that appealed so much to mainstream America.
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TrueToo@ the attacks on Palin are by no means to do with her sex, its all to do with most of world outside of the US being stunned by how utterly clueless she is. Her carefully chosen interviews with tame journalist have been cringe inducing, the way she squirmed when asked which journals she reads, (it would seem none), and when given the opportunity to expand on her foreign experience vis-à-vis Russia she mumbled something about delegations, (according to her official diary she has had no such meetings). I would just love Paxman to have 10 minutes with her, he would rip or her to pieces.
But in some ways you are right, i do not know why we are spending so much time talking about this nobody when in 2 weeks time she will go back too wasting moose.
Lets all talk about something far more interesting and relevant like Biden.
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David_Cunard wrote:
#70. Drudge52: "Obama`s `Spread the Wealth` comment shows what his future agenda will be. Is the US ready for a socialist agenda?"
socialist, socialist, socialist, socialist, SOCIALIST or SOCIALIST - it doesn't matter how you write it or say, it is just not so! The number of times the word has been used is extraordinary - and still the users don't know what socialism is. Mr Obama is not a socialist - repeat, not a socialist. Get used to it.
For your information the definition of democratic socializm is
A leftist political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society ...
www.socialpolicy.ca/d.htm
Spread the wealth, seems to be a little bit similar to this definition.
So why would Obama intimate that he believed in spreading the wealth?
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The fact that Palin is drawing more fascination from the public/media than McCain probably isn't comfortable for him. It's certainly not a good precursor for how a presidency should run.
Biden is just what a vp should be - boring, established, and respected in Washinton and international politics. We're confident enough about his credentials to not have to talk about him constantly.
I doubt McCain's judgment even more because he picked Palin. She is not qualified for the position and should have had the sense to say so. If she can't even take on Katie Couric without blowing it, how on earth is she going to take on Washington politics?
I'll vote for Obama. He at least has stayed married to his wife, and that says a lot for both of them.
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Drudge52 wrote:
Obama struggled to close the deal against Hillary Clinton and had to rely on the super delegates to get the nomination.
That is a pretty weak argument when it was only the undeclared super-delegates that were keeping Clinton in the race.
If there were no super-delegates Obama would have sealed the nomination much earlier then he actually did.
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83/Drudge
Equally, we know McCain can't walk the walk or talk the talk!
What I think about socialism isn't relevant, what the American people think about socialism isn't relevant (except in so far as McCain can use it to scare them), what IS relevant is what the American people think about Obama's tax plans.
His tax plans are that rare thing in politics, simple, understandable, irrefutable. Whether you think it's socialism or not, he has got the details out there and people know what it is. Anyone making under $250,000 a year gets a tax cut. The 5% of people (and falling) making over $250,000 a year get a tax rise.
Now forgive me, but that is going to sound quite appealing to 95% of the American people, and McCain opposing it smells very like he is protecting the wealthy at the expense of the little guy.
Technically, it is spreading the wealth - Obama said so to Joe/Sam and has not retracted this. Why should he? If the American people think spreading the wealth so that most of them benefit at a time when they are struggling is a bad thing, they might vote for McCain. But from where I'm looking, the laws of logic, reason, and self-interest suggest that an Obama vote is more likely, at least as far as tax goes.
The economy is failing. Your country is probably heading into recession. In such circumstances, hoping that people's aspirations of future success will tempt them into throwing their lot in with the Republicans looks like a stunning misjudgement.
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A couple of points about body language:
1 In McCain's case one has to take into account his injuries when doing analysis
2. It is subjective, example I googled Obama's body language. Half were positive and half were megative.
Unless you a qualified proffesional; such as Tonya Riemann, the analysis does not mean that much.
Yes Riemann consults for Fox, but she has written a book on the subject.
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Joe Sixpack Speaks
Peace and Good Folked
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Oh dear. There has just been a mass exodus from a former tech site called Digg that became a Huffington Post mouthpiece and now the BBC has succumbed to that propaganda sheet too. They, along with Daily Kos, print pretty much nothing but rumours and absurd hearsay. Would you be quoting News of the World articles on Brown's leadership in the UK? Didn't think so. I would appreciate the BBC applying the same journalistic integrity to vetting their sources abroad as they do back home. Thanks.
Phillip.
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Drudge, please give it a rest - socialism means a lot more than "spreading the wealth" in the sense Obama meant it. If he's a socialist, then every government that ever asked for taxes from its citizens (all of them, ever) was/is also socialist. A government that let everyone keep every cent they earned would be great, as long as people didn't mind living without hospitals, schools, police, public transport, parks, roads...
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does anyone remember when mccain release his 4 year plan for his first term. since the week he released that plan he has reffered to that plan at no point in the past 2 months. he released that plan in august.
another example of the ever changing message of the mccain camp. flip flops anyone? ? ?
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Princess Sarah has some splainin to do when she gets back home to Alaska. There is a very high chance of her being impeached or recalled as governor after the election.
We have learned that our governor is not who we thought she was. I'm betting her political career here in Alaska is toast.
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Dear Mr. Webb,
You write: "and perhaps metaphorically as well..."
Well I guess that premonition came out pretty quickly. Seems like Sarah has already entered for the race for 2012. Just read this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/25/palin.tension/index.html
I never considered these mavericks to be loyal though.
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Ref 83
"If you support Obama then you must believe in socialism itself and of course you are entitled to your view but is the US ready for such a radical change.I hope not."
Thus far, the only blatant examples of socialism are the bailout package crafted by the Bush Administration to nationalize banks and financial institutions, and the $300B real estate bailout proposal advanced by McCain during the second debate.
The socialist handouts championed by Republicans contrast with Obama's focus on fiscal conservatism, the need to strengthen our industry, and his proposal to shore up the value of the dollar to attract foreign investment. No wonder so many GOP fiscal conservatives have endorsed his candidacy.
Not surprisingly, while the Republican base ignore the socialist solutions being implemented by their party they attempt to divert attention to the Obama campaign for their audacity in proposing programs to help the middle class - and by default our country - by making healthcare available to all, improving our education system, and repairing our collapsing and aging infrastructure.
The contrast between the two "socialist solutions" is that the Republican one will be wasted by the same unscrupulous businessmen and politicians that got us in the mess we are in, while the Democratic proposal would reduce the operating costs of American corporations, making them more competitive, and would allow our country to meet the challenges of the 21st century.
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I think tommorrow we will see McCain in California, if he can turn that over then he will not need FLA, OH and NM ... lol
what a maverick campaigner!
: )
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#83. Drudge52: "We do know (Obama) believes in socialism and only a chance encounter brought that out of him. If you support Obama then you must believe in socialism itself."
Read my post at #81, and write it out a hundred times: Obama is not a socialist.
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#96 Drufge52:
"Spread the wealth, seems to be a little bit similar to this definition.
So why would Obama intimate that he believed in spreading the wealth?"
Seems a little bit similiar? Is that the best you have? Obama appears to believe that maybe the people who've done very well out of the last eight years could afford to give something back to their country and that's socialism?
From the polls it seems a lot of American citizens seem to think its simple decency, not socialism.
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About Iowa
Mccain is against ethanol subsidy, and Iowa is a large ethanol producer. So hence the doubts, but if the state is on the way between destinations..
It could be TV markets, sometimes appearing in one state gets coverage from Local media in more than one state.
Some of the critical politicians who have never done a national election should really shut up.
The campaigns can pay for much larger sample sizes for state polls rather than the pathetic n=500 that the dumbed down US media seem to get excited about.
Even so, I can see that John and Sarah can't win this one. They would need another gaff from Obama, he is way way too diciplined for that. It must be 100-1 against now.
For the republicans to win, Republican voters would have to be selectively avoiding pollsters calls. Could Obamas TV $500 million Blitzkrieg be making republican voters shy from even picking up the phone?
Maybe a little. But surely not enough close the huge gaps in the more reliable national polls. The effect might be detectable if there is a drop in response rate. You would also need republican voters to actually lie to pollsters. Too much of a stretch I think.
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Drudge52
I don't disagree fundamentally with your definition of socialism, but I would disagree with your view that Sen Obama's agenda is more societally interventionist than that of the current administration. At the extreme end of the spectrum, an elected Republican Congresswoman has suggested that the entire legislative membership of the US government should be subjected to tests of 'Americaness' or otherwise in their views. I will concede that this is an extreme view, expressed by a single individual, but that does seem a little bit 'interventionist', and there has been disappointingly little outrage from our current leadership at her remarks. The bail out can hardly be considered as an initiative to reduce government involvement in society. The various ballot measures, republican sponsored, to legislate on who can marry who, strike me as rather invasive into personal freedom, whatever my personal moral view may be.
Perhaps we could agree that government of whatever complexion should not muck about with the minutiae of individual citizens' lives. I believe that Sen Obama has expressed the view that government exists to do the things which individuals and communities can't do for themselves. National security, education, basic healthcare, and an economic safety net of last resort in hard times seem to me to fall into that bracket. Would you agree?
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#96
Drudge,
You could say that, but you would be wrong. Socialism is:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
'Spreading the wealth', by modifying our taxation system is a practice carried out by every government in the world, one way or the other. Colin Powell pointed this out, hardly a socialist.
The biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of our nation has taken place over the last 8 years, from the middle class to the wealthy. Obama wants to reverse that just a little.
Calling him a socialist by saying 'a democratic socialist is blah' is a weak arguement. If I may, a similar arguement would be to say 'A democratic petunia is a formar navy pilot who has suffered torture. John McCain is a petunia. A Petunia! We can;t elect a petunia to president. The American people would never stand for that!'
Silly really.
Lexicographer Sam
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AP INVESTIGATION: Palin pipeline terms curbed bids
It just gets better and better (unless you're a Republican)!Peace and pipelines
ed
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102:
Oh, moderators! It's the time of the changeover again, I see. This was me saying I was fed up and packing it in here for a while.
I also added what was supposed to be a satirical comment about Obama apparently being perceived by some contrinutors here, not as a socialist any more, but as a Hugo-Chavez-type-Marxist who would replace the stars with a hammer and sickle, and the stripes with a verse from the Koran . . .
If a little satirical comment somehow contravenes the BBC guidelines, then I abandon hope. Oh, get a grip, will you?
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From any individual voter's point of view, "spreading the wealth" is only a bad thing if it is being spread AWAY from them.
In general people will vote for you if you "spread the wealth" in their direction. That is what Obama is proposing to do, for 95% of the country.
I don't think he is too concerned about losing the votes of the wealthiest 5%, the ones McCain keeps speaking to when he talks about "he wants to spread YOUR wealth." Either they would be voting McCain anyway, or they are so stinkingly rich they don't care.
The "socialism" label is a red herring. Obama freely admits he wants to spread America's cumulative wealth TOWARDS 19 out of every 20 Americans. Whatever label you stick on it, it looks very tempting!
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Ref 114
"If I may, a similar arguement would be to say 'A democratic petunia is a formar navy pilot who has suffered torture. John McCain is a petunia. A Petunia! We can;t elect a petunia to president. The American people would never stand for that!"
Sam, your gardening analogy to the claims of socialism made my day!
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McCain is only comfortable with McCain.
He is completely self-absorbed and gets along with absolutely no one.
Do we want this smirking, 'my friends' simpleton to run the White House? Unthinkable.
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Re:#106. New insight into the pipeline she touted
AP investigation
and the Troopergate investigation continues.
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Drudge52: "the definition of democratic socializm is
A leftist political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society ...
www.socialpolicy.ca/d.htm
Spread the wealth, seems to be a little bit similar to this definition."
As you say, a little bit similar. Not very similar, even to this very weak definition of democratic socialism - which I would say requires common ownership of at least the key parts of the economy. Over the past few decades, there has been an enormous concentration of wealth within the USA. Advocating some reversal of this trend by changing the relative weight of taxation on the rich and the rest, which is all Obama has proposed, does not constitute "socialism". If you really think it does, you should get psychiatric help: such a degree of disconnection from reality can be dangerous. In most European countries, Obama's views and policies would be at home in a centre-right party.
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Just to clarify for myself- I think Sam is saying this:
Opinion expressed as fact: Petunias are bad.
Internally inconsistent, but sincerely held view: Petunia-like characteristics are acceptable in certain circumstances.
Categorical statement on observing a plant with some petunia-like characteristics: I'm calling you a petunia.
Logically inconsistent conclusion: Therefore you are bad.
Mr Webb, if you're short of things to post about, a brief article on the application of Bayes theorum to rational decision making would be welcome.
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I'm not really surprised at the people who think that the BBC is catering to Liberals.
Anyone or anything not moving in lockstep with the righties' beliefs seem to be regarded as a direct threat. So accepting posts from BOTH sides looks 'biased' to some.
After all, the Right's idea of a 'maverick' is someone who voted 90-95% with the Bush administration.
If McCain actually were a Maverick (a dissenter, refusing to abide by the dictates of a group), he wouldn't have gotten within screaming distance of the nomination.
Exhibiting independence may not be a conservative-approved ideal.
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Just saw Ed picked up on the pipeline in #115
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Isn't 'spreading the wealth around' what the US rich have been doing for years - with each other!
And when the banks can't spread the wealth to each other the financial system collapses!
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icetayoa wrote:
Mcain is male, whilst Palin is female and they are both happily married with children. how do you expect them to behave in public, hold hands and hug??
A man and a woman can look comfortable with each other without being a couple.
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Drudge .... please stop harping on about socialism. This has been discussed in most of the last week's blog responses at some length. Obama is not a socialist. You do not understand the word.
If you are incapable of following a cogent argument or understanding a simple word definition, then perhaps you should be posting on "Barney's Blogsite" where the big purple dinosaur talks about how it was growing up next door to the Palin family.
You are blocking sensible discussion of issues (any issues really) and I invite others to do what I shall do .... which is to ignore you until you have a real point to make.
Peace and dictionaries
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#122
Yeah baby, yeah
Sam Powers
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If the BBC is really catering to liberals, can I order a bacon sandwich please?
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Re: #114. Perhaps not a petunia, but a lupin?
Squire: Lupins?
Moore: Yes, lupins. Come on, come on.
Parson: What do you mean, lupins?
Moore: Don't try to play for time.
Parson: I'm not, but... the flower lupin?
Moore: Yes, that's right.
Squire: Well we haven't got any lupins.
Girl: Honestly.
Moore: Look, my friends. I happen to know that this is the Lupin Express.
Squire: Damn!
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Am no economist, but what do people think of this? would it work? if the current account deficit was reined in, and some of the national debt paid off, rates could come down ... just for discussion ....
individual taxation
tax free first 20k
20k - 75k @ 20%
75k - 200k @ 25%
200k - 300k @ 30%
300k - @ 35%
deductions for self employed, donations to schools, hospitals etc
some form of health care to be funded by 5% each from employee and employer
corporate taxation 25% - very limited deductions to meet specific aims such as the shift to green energy
capital gains/dividends and inheritance @ 20%
I know I have not mentioned social securiy/medicare but there is only so much room.
cut waste, improve efficiency, balance the budget and reduce the national debt and tax rates could drop --- is this beyond the realms of possibility
up for discussion anyway ... and is it socialist?
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It would seem the Republican campaign is falling apart...
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/25/palin.tension/index.html
Maybe this could eplain the tension.
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I apologise to all who responded to my comment at no 57. I responded in turn but the site didn't like it and it disappeared into a black hole every time I submitted it.
If Obama isn't a socialist, what is he? A communist? That'd fit with his background.
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in addition to 131 (me)
small business to be taxed at individual rates with deductions for capital expenditure, training, and other things I am sure I am unaware of, but with maybe 40k tax free ... as I said I am no economist, would really be interested to hear some opinions.
It seems to me the the complexities of government finance are so complicated as to be incomprehensible to the average person, hence the suspicion of the the bailout ...
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btw - todays national poll average: Obama +8
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this argument about socialism, well how about this: even the most right wing contributors on this site would say that we at least need to pay for our defense, so it is a matter of degree. What should the government, ie, the taxpayer, pay for?
Make a list, here is mine:
defence
police
education
health
infrastructure
social security ( inc insurance against unemployment)
administration of such
it seems a lot, but hey, I am from the UK! lol
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#97
Josephina,
Staying married to Michelle is hardly a chore . . .
Sad Sam
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@TrueToo:
Please try and preserve some dignity, because this is honestly sad to see. About half a dozen posts above have cogently outlined why calling Obama a "socialist" is deeply misleading and just plain wrong, and you have to stagger into the room like an ageing general, cryogenically frozen in 1956 and only partially thawed, shouting "The man's nuthin' but a filthy COMMIE!". Please get a grip. If the label "socialist" was a craven attempt to make people afraid of Obama, then "communist" really is the bottom of the barrel. It belongs to an era of politics when that label was simply affixed to anything the person saying it found distasteful.
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#90
Ice,
Yes. I hug my female friends.
Holding hands would be ok. No kissing, at least none with tounges. That would freak me out.
Etiquette Sam
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oh, regards 136, by administration I include government itself, judicial, representative, executive and so on
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133: TrueToo
If you have to put a label on him at all Obama is a European style social democrat. He's not a socialist any more than McCain is a neo-conservative, or Palin is a Nazi (and no, really, they actually aren't).
He's much closer to the centre than Pelosi and Reid, and he's probably further to the right than the leader of the UK Conservative party (though not many of its members!).
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133, TrueToo.
"If Obama isn't a socialist, what is he? A communist? That'd fit with his background."
What is this need to label him? Do you think that if you can, then you can use it as a smear? Please do just that. The more you vilify him the more people will give him money and vote for him. Just like McCain, you are in the 20th century.
By the way, Obama thanks you for helping to get him elected.
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134: That sounds, erm, british. Give or take a few K on the allowance.
Generally, on the redistribution of 'wealth' argument. When a recession looms, cutting the middle class (consumers) a bit of financial slack may tip the odds in favor of mainstream commercial enterprises. Holding to the trickle-down theory seems a recipe for trying to maintain healthy sales of large homes and top-end luxury goods. I should know, I work for a firm providing the latter, and we're ok for the foreseeable future, but that doesn't make for a healthy economy. (Sorry - straying into the anecdotal there). In short, putting resource, and confidence about long-term financial security (which includes security about health coverage, and decent education for kids), into the consumer spending engine which drives the economy should be the first priority of a capitalist government, if you believe that is the best economic system available.
That appears to be Sen Obama's approach. And it ain't socialist. Rational though. Which is refreshing.
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106, Which.
It won't be McCain (he will blame Palin for his loss), or Troopergate, or corruption that does in Sarah Palin. It will be Katy Couric, Tina Fey and the National Enquirer. Alaska won't want a laughingstock for governor.
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143: it probably is! coz I am! lol, I agree, the only thing I worry about is the incompetence and waste of government, our current one was supposed to be prudent, and I believed : (
also: there is always mission creep ...
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100, ubermensch.
Some body language does not need an expert to interpret. When Obama and his wife hug, it is the hug of a loving couple. Now watch the McCain's. Look at her as well. They follow the script (now you hug).
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btw current allowance (uk single) 6000 pounds
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#100 Magickirin:
"couple of points about body language:
1 In McCain's case one has to take into account his injuries when doing analysis
2. It is subjective, example I googled Obama's body language. Half were positive and half were megative.
Unless you a qualified proffesional; such as Tonya Riemann, the analysis does not mean that much.
Yes Riemann consults for Fox, but she has written a book on the subject."
Sorry Magic but given that you got a simple matter of public record such as the outcome of the popular vote in 2000 wrong why exactly is anyone supposed to give any weight to your opinions?
Go look at:
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm
Own up that you got it wrong and maybe regain a tiny bit of credibility but I have bo doubt you will either ignore me or airly inform me that you don't follow links.
For the benefit of others Magic insisted that Gore could NOT have won the popular vote and lost the election and simply dismissed anyone who said otherwise. The table at the link shows the truth. You should weigh the value of Magickirin's comments accordingly.
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Drudge52 wrote:
For your information the definition of democratic socializm is
A leftist political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society ...
www.socialpolicy.ca/d.htm
Spread the wealth, seems to be a little bit similar to this definition.
So why would Obama intimate that he believed in spreading the wealth?
So if you think that socialism is such a bad idea you won't be voting for either candidate? As the republicans seem to have socialist views of their own. How many billions of dollars did the US government pump into the tax system? Didn't they nationalise some major financial companies? Well that sure sounds like socialism to me.
And as for spreading the wealth, well that would never happen under McCain - although I am not sure even an ex-military man could keep up the "War on Terror" without spreading a little of the wealth around - or maybe I have missed his speach saying that he plans to privatise the armed forces?
Don't worry yourself, Obama's plans to tax the wealthy a little more to provide tax cuts to those who are less wealthy may actually stimulate the economy (those horrible poor people may actually spend some of the money - you know poor people, well you just can't trust them with money can you?) and if the economy stabalises then less people will lose their jobs and have to be bailed out by the tax payer!
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#133
"If Obama isn't a socialist, what is he? A communist? That'd fit in with his background."
No country in the developed world could be close to being "socialist". And no country remotely resembles "unfettered capitalism."
Every one of them is a liberal democracy.
Every one of them has an economy built on free markets. Every one of them regulates those markets.
Republicans generally want less regulation and intervention; Democrats more.
What we are seeing is less regulation causing the collapse of the free market model of a modern global economy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
140: i liked that!
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#151
Ex,
I think a post of this nature is below the honor of anyone who served. I would also observe that most folks who served don;t feel the need to brag about it.
What Regiment, Battery were you with in Gulf 1 and what was your area of operations?
Inquisitive Sam
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we have no eternal rights, we are subject to the whims of the day ...
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Samtyler1969 at 153
49 Battery attached to 23 Battery
27 field regiment attached to 40 field regiment
1st UK armoured Division
UK Units were well under war strength before going to the Gulf, so many units were joined together to get the gun crews up to 10 man complement.
The only defense for posting something like that is I think its true.
Frank Marshall Davis was a member of the CPUSA, which is why I know his height and weight from the FBI files.
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#134
Dude,
They are.
Economist Sam
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151 exserviceman
Links to a site called 'truthseeker' and an article claiming Obama's father wasn't his father. His father was - wait for it - a commie!
The article is by an "Andy Martin". Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it's this gent
"Anthony Robert Martin-Trigona, usually known as Andy Martin (born 1945 in Middletown, Connecticut) is an American journalist, perennial candidate, and vexatious litigant. Known for anti-semitic remarks, he once ran for Congress as a Democrat of Connecticut in 1986 with a promise "to exterminate Jew Power," according to the paperwork of one of his campaign committees. The Nation, The Washington Post, and The New York Times have identified him as the primary source of false rumors that 2008 Democratic Party presidential nominee Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim."
(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Martin_(U.S._politician))
As for Mr Serviceman's objectivity, he posted this a couple of postings ago
"Since Obama launched his political career in the front room of two Weathermen leaders, I think its only fair to point out what these people were planning to do./They were and are unrepentent (sic) revolutionary communists. The objective is the same, the method different."
The only meaning I can take from this is that Obama is a revolutionary communist - and/or the tool of revolutionary communists.
It's in the blood, dontcha know....
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Don't these never-ending spelling and grammatical errors by conservative posters make you (sic)?
They call us elitist, I think what they mean is "educated."
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#155
Interesting,
Why would a gunner use numbers instead of the Battery name? All the gunners I know are proud of their battery name, not the number. If you were with the Inkerman's why not say it?
You missed the one part you couldn't quickly find on the internet. Area of operations.
Sorry, you don't pass the sniff test.
Gunner Sam
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#157 -
Agreed, that site is textbook wingnut conspiracy stuff. Not only does it bang on about the usual birth certificate nonsense, but there's also some genuinely scary stuff on there (or linked to as "Essential Reading") including, fantastically, "Did New York Orchestrate The Asian Tsunami?".
exserviceman - I respect your service to your country (our country, I am also British), and your right to believe what you want, but do you really expect us to take this dangerous nonsense the least bit seriously?
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'Palin is more like Obama, someone relatively new and untested on the national scene, someone who enthuses her supporters and terrifies her enemies, someone everyone is talking about, someone in the media spotlight and being judged...'
Quite possibly - the difference is Obama is able, intelligent, will restore America's reputation in the international community (by Christ this is needed), doesn't resort to 'small towning' or 'red menacing' (yawn) - and he can string a sentance together.
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Palin can string sentences together, she just chooses not to. She's the eloquent one on the ticket!
As for ability, intelligence, and restoring shattered reputations - that is what the American people are judging. I think it's safe to say that regardless of being untested, Obama is impressing on every front a lot more than Palin, or indeed the very tried and tested McCain.
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#155
Afterthought.
The Royal Artillery was using M109's in the gulf. That's a a 7 man crew, not 10. If you had AS90's (I believe some were deployed but stand to be corrected) the crew would be even smaller. 5?
Something doesn't add up.
Confused Sam.
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158, Stephen.
Dear Elitest, It is odd that it should be McCain who flings the elitist label at Obama. Of the four people running, three came from ordinary families, while McCain (and his wife) was born to luxury and privilege.
Obama never flung this at him. I often wondered why. It was an easy and honest shot, and it certainly would have shut his mouth.
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151. ex.
What do we think of your post, or what do we think of you? The last one is easy. You should seek counseling, or find a girlfriend.
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I wish to apologise for linking to the cite of anti-semitic nut job.
I made a crazy, crazy claim with basically no evidence what so ever.
Its what you get for posting at 3 am.
If the mod can take down 151, that would be kind.
My own post sickens me.
Once again, sorry.
I think I need to get a life.
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166, ex.
It is not often that people apologize on this blog. Accepted.
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It is important that a male and female leadership team not get too close to each other. Distance is called for in professional relationships so jealousies and gossip do not arise.
Fighting abortion and same gender unions are the strongest reason to vote for McCain/Palin and the Republican Party. Someone strong in the Bible is an asset if they will use the principles in it to solve the world problems we created by ignoring God's wisdom.
The holy war that is fought against us is to keep our godless ways of abortion, indecencies and immoralities out of the Muslim nations. Voting against Obama and Democrats shows a turning toward God. The primary message of the Qur'an is to follow the whole Bible. Jesus said to follow EVERY word of God. With that agreement, we can change from violence to discussion in this war on terror. This is one way God fights for us when we turn to His ways. That great military enterprise could end easily.
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138 deeperwell42
Relax, I posed a question, that’s all. And it is a valid question since Obama has a long history of rubbing shoulders with communists and like-minded subversives. I’m unable to provide the evidence here because this site censors it when I try but it is all over the Internet.
141 StephenDerry
If he’s elected, I guess time will tell where he stands.
142 allmymarbles
Let’s not jump the gun. He ain’t elected yet. And I doubt that my small contribution here has any effect on the electoral process in the US. It’s like saying a single ant can change the path of an elephant.
150 niceBrianm
I agree, except that the Labour government has energetically been turning Britain into a socialist, nanny state for a number of years.
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Please just face the fact, McCain's staff has utterly mismanaged his campaigne from the start. Palin is just the cherry on top of a rapidly melting sundae that started before Black September's Baked Alaska.
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The odd couple in spades.Palin looks ruthless and McCain cannot but rue his impulsive ludicrous choice .He may have underestimated her ambition and her abilility to draw incredulous reactions to her empty assertions of competence.Foreign policy "Russia from her living room window"Whats next ,Thanksgiving turkey dinner in Turkistan.Mccain looks like a man who is seeing his fantasy evaporate as his running mate takes him over the proverbial cliff.
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I read this in the link Justin provided:
"a man who demonstrated the most admirable equanimity and courage in the face of unimaginable pressures as a prisoner of war"
That's about McCain of course. But apparently there are those who think that his behaviour during his pow days was somewhat less than impeccable. It seems he was more than willing to give up more than his name and number when interrogated. And as soon as his captors discovered that he was the son of an admiral, he got treated a lot better than most iof his fellow prisoners. Apparently. Of course we can't mention that.
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ref #148
ASA Scott you keep going over technicalities.
Bush won Florida legitamatly.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/election2000.htm
You can't change the rules to benefit your canidate.
And my credibilty far exceeds All the Marbles, Jackforge and yours.
Not being an Obama worshipper does not make someone unfit to comment.
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A total mismatch which will cost the Republicans dearly! McCain needed a running mate who is astute, versatile and able to feel the pulse of the nation! Sarah Palin may appeal to the majority of Alaskans but she definitely needs to sharpen her knowledge on a whole range of subjects in order to be an effective Vice-President! McCain has towering strengths but has shown bad judgement in choosing a running mate. So he could make wrong choices in his cabinet too!
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34. At 6:53pm on 25 Oct 2008, selfevidenttruths wrote:
....Accept the need for government but promise streamlining and extra accountability at all levels ...
My hand goes out to you. All of your suggestions are sensible, and in fact could be adopted as a mandate for either republican or a democratic President. We need logic and pragmatism and less intrusion by the idealogues.
Peace and good governance.
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#168 MarieDevine wrote
"Fighting abortion and same gender unions are the strongest reason to vote for McCain/Palin and the Republican Party."
I totally respect your personal view that these issues are important .....
.... but to say they are the "strongest reason" to vote M-P in the current economic climate shows
either an incredible detachment from reality and the issues affecting vast numbers of people
or so much wealth that you're alright and can pursue emotive single issue politics without considering the bigger picture.
Incidentally are you also anti-IVF treatment, in which many embryos are created in the full knowledge that some will fail on implant or simply be discarded? Please tell me.
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I am a conservative Christian republican but the McCain/Palin campaign has shocked me in two main respects: first, its gutter mud throwing politics, second its inability to understand and address the current economic and international problems. Obama has at least consistently focused on new ideas and for all our sakes, I hope he wins.
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#177 cdmlad
Thank you for this post. You remind us that the voices we hear spouting ever more extreme straw-clutching theories are just the noisy lunatic fringe.
They do not represent the huge numbers of decent, well-meaning conservative Christians in America who are facing a very tough choice at this election, and will hopefully base that choice on policies, not provocative rhetoric.
Will their Christian faith lead them to follow the candidate who's policies will help more of the poor and down-trodden of the USA?
Or will they remain with the party that talks a good line about faith?
Time will tell, but I know what I'm hoping for.
Peace and thoughtfulness
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173/Kirin
Bush was awarded Florida by the supreme court. So technically it is legitimate, just not particularly fair given that more people in Florida made their mark with the intention to vote for his opponent than for him, their votes just were not counted for various convoluted reasons, some justifiable, some not. But that's old news, I think everyone knows that now.
Asa's point is that you said Gore could not possibly have won the popular vote by half a million nationally or he would have won the election. He did win the popular vote, he did lose the election, and the easiest way to shut Asa up would be to admit you got that particular point wrong!
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176:
How about Onanism? that never seems to figure along with abortion and same-sex marriage. Been wondering why not.
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#180 british-ish
Ah, the sin of Onan rears its head.
But who was Onan .... Genesis 38 tells us:
6And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
I feel a bit sorry for Er, who was slain without any sort of defence for the sin of undefined wickedness.
Also it puts a new and dangerous slant on the withdrawal method of contraception. Bit risky, I'd say.
Peace and abstinance
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Justin, Justin, Justin,
If you don't want people to think you are biased why do you keep linking to stories on the highly partisan Huffington Post?
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#173 Magickirin
"ASA Scott you keep going over technicalities.
Bush won Florida legitamatly.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/election2000.htm
You can't change the rules to benefit your canidate.
And my credibilty far exceeds All the Marbles, Jackforge and yours.
Not being an Obama worshipper does not make someone unfit to comment."
No, getting a simple matter of public record wrong does, and you still can't spell...
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#179 StephenDerry:
"Asa's point is that you said Gore could not possibly have won the popular vote by half a million nationally or he would have won the election. He did win the popular vote, he did lose the election, and the easiest way to shut Asa up would be to admit you got that particular point wrong!"
Sorry about the harping on, and endlessly repeating the same I admit minor point time and again, just wanted to give Magickirin a taste of his own medicine!
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# 180 and 181
Possibly a slight diversion from the election and the other great issues of the day, but anyhoo...
Did you know that Dorothy Parker had a budgie which she called Onan?
Because he spilled his seed on the ground.......
;-)
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I keep seeing how McCain/Palin want to bring change to Washington & how they will take on the lobbyists etc.....but wasn't that what Obama was saying weeks before. A clear case of plagarism from a party that is so desperate to cling to power they blindy ignore their own contradictions, refuse to accept any reasoned arguements to claims they make, and pick a VP purely to pinch disaffected Clinton supporters without checking whether Palin was suitable for the post, for which she has proved herself painfully inadequate. Good for her she's a working 'hockey mom' (dear god that's sure to scare the terrorists) and she's a Governor....of a wildreness state of 600,000 people. McCain supporters are voting for him just because he's a Christian and 'seems like a good man' I'd laugh if it wasn't so scary. People actually think like this.
I've also been watching the mainstream media and they are an insult to Journalism. Truly shameful. Thank god for Obama. Oh, and when he's served his two terms and hands over to Hilary.....can us Brits have Obama for a few years?
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I want justin's spin on this latest poll. I bet he would have some outlandish excuse as usual.
Released: October 26, 2008
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 49.4%, McCain 44.1%McCain gains as race continues to tightenUTICA, New York – Republican John McCain continues to gain on Democrat Barack Obama, reducing Obama’s lead to 5.3 points with just over a week to go before Election Day, the latest Reuters/C–SPAN/Zogby national daily tracking poll shows.
The race now stands at 49.4% to 44.1% in favor of Obama. Obama led McCain by 9.5 points in yesterday’s report.“There is no question that this race continues to tighten and that McCain is finding his message again,” said Pollster John Zogby. “It is after all about the economy and that is how McCain tightened it up the last time. I have said over and over again, when he focuses on extraneous issues, he screws up. In today's single day of polling, it was 49% to 46% in favor of Obama. McCain has moved his own numbers each of the three days and Obama has gone down from 54% to 50% to 49%. I have alluded before to this strange, magnetic pull that brings Obama down to 48% or 49%, a danger zone for him. McCain's gains are among white voters, where he now leads by 12 points, and with men, where he again has a healthy lead. There is still a lot of campaign to go
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It says it all about the current state of the McCain campaign that being (at least) 5 points behind in all the polls has now become a positive!
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#187 Icetayao:
"Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 49.4%, McCain 44.1%McCain gains as race continues to tightenUTICA, New York ? Republican John McCain continues to gain on Democrat Barack Obama, reducing Obama?s lead to 5.3 points with just over a week to go before Election Day, the latest Reuters/C?SPAN/Zogby national daily tracking poll shows."
Problem is that 5 points is right around where Zogby has been for some time. If you check out the overall polltracker at fivethirtyeight.com then the polls have been pretty much static for the last couple of weeks, barring random variation, at around a 5-6% lead for Obama nationally and doing rather better in those states he needs to pick up for victory. Sorry but no sign of tightening, just the media trying to whip up some excitement.
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"188. At 5:45pm on 26 Oct 2008, StephenDerry wrote:
It says it all about the current state of the McCain campaign that being (at least) 5 points behind in all the polls has now become a positive!"
Yes I beleive McCAin's plan is to try and fall behind by 15 points which will apparently mean he is home and hosed,
Talk about through the Looking Glass
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Something the Right seems not to realize: Shrill rhetoric only appeals to fellow righties. You guys should be out fishing for independent voters. I tell you this secure in the knowledge that you'll never pull it off.
An example: I was a [BLEEP]ing steamed Hillary supporter who dumped the Democratic Party after (1) their super delegates made my primary vote worthless (what a silly system), (2) Hillary was passed over in the VP nod.
Registered now as an Independent, I took another look at McCain. Then he chose Palin.
I started digging into backgrounds only to find that McCain's past had some things that made me look at him in a new light. That Palin...oh don't get me started on her past or current record. Or her apparent plans for the future.
I find some things I'm not thrilled with about Obama (not the silly, non-starter birth certificate, Ayers stuff), but overall he seems a decent, intelligent human being.
Michelle didn't do much for me initially, but comparing her past with that of the other potential First Lady made her come out smelling like a rose.
So I leaned to the left again and then got booted over the edge by the irrationality of the far right. A thoughful discussion might not have done that, I think
A Republican couple my late husband and I were friends with from decades ago, recently called to make sure I was going to vote Obama, so it may not be only Independents who've found shrill and wild-eyed to be off-putting.
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McCain is not awkward with her on stage! He is merly trying to keep sufficient distance between them just in case her ignorance and intolerance rubs off on him. Other than bitter small town people with guns, NOBODY even wants to share the planet with caribu barbie...
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HEY! I'm a "bitter small town people" (with guns, no less) and I don't want to be anywhere near her.
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For god's sake, I am sick to death of hearing this "Obama is a socialist" canard. Do yourself a favor -- seek out the video of the ENTIRE 5-minute conversation Obama had with Joe the (unlicensed) Plumber. Nothing in that conversation even hints at socialism, save for that yanked out of context two-second sound bite, which must be understood in light of everything else he said to Joe.
The comment came in a part of the conversation in which Obama was pointing out that the concept is that by strengthening the middle class, and enabling them to have more disposable income and financial security, EVERYONE benefits, the "rich" included. No one, least of all Obama, is advocating some massive, wholesale, across the board redistribution of wealth; just a reasonable tweaking of a tax system that has become far too imbalanced.
By the standards of those who have the knee-jerk "socialism" reaction to Obama, Social Security, Medicare, and every government subsidy/assistance program ever established is "socialist," but I don't see too many people turning down those benefits when they are entitled to them.
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The simple fact is that he is a married male and she a married female. I find it hilarious that a "hug" is expected of different gender politicians, which is what creates the awkward moment. Two hetero guys would't expect to hug every time they were together, but somehow everyone expects it of them. Biden and NObama just shake hands, why not these two? Oh, yeah, the press. If they didn't hug, then everyone would think they have a problem with each other or at least their "body language" would be suggesting it. Are you all nuts to spend time on this while the world is crashing around us?????
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Umm it's because they're phony people (everyone who has the gall to run is) but the thing is they're too stupid to hide it well.
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Re #173.
Nice work Magic. The poster you referenced quoted a link with .gov at the end. So a government website.
You link to the Grandfather Economic Report series in now way a proper government website where the creator is free to post whatever they want, i mean he even stated how many square miles he won as it was more than gore, Gore won more votes period and would have wond florida too if ALL of the votes had been counted or all of the people had been allowed to vote that were valid voters.
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I think mccain is keeping his distance incase she tries to mate with him and eat him.
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Dear 195,
To go only slightly off topic: Some "heteros" do seem to hug (and kiss and hold hands) when they meet - or have you not seen George Bush greeting the Royal Family of Kuwait?
Dear 194,
The reason you are sick of hearing "socialist" and probably "birth certificate" and "Ayres" is this:
They don't have anything else.
Two phony issues and a man who's a professor with his wild days behind him are scare tactics that seem to keep the far right base trembling with rage and fear, and they just can't believe that nobody else is reacting.
So they just keep shouting "boo" and hope to get a reaction. "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" is a sign of...? What was that Einstein quote again....?
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BOO!
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AIIEEE!
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Say...you don't suppose the U.S. attack in Syria and the falling gas prices have anything to do with 4th November do you? Surely even politicians wouldn't sink so low.
As for 198:
Are you slamming the noble - if voracious - Praying Mantis? My first thought was 'Mantis Religiosa', but she's found only in Europe, where, one presumes, the dining is superb.
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I think that the party wanted to get somebody that reminded us of Dan Quail. Ring a bell with anyone?
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Actually i was thinking of a spider but the praying part of the praying mantis is more apt.
After devouring Senator McCain, govenor Palid announed that it was god's will.
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202, nessie.
"Say...you don't suppose the U.S. attack in Syria and the falling gas prices have anything to do with 4th November do you? Surely even politicians wouldn't sink so low."
I have been expecting something like to happen before the election and have said so in a post or two. And many politicians don't have to sink - that would suggest that they started out at a higher level. People like Bush and McCain are bereft of humanity.
It is my guess that this is a test run for the Republicans. If the polls and the gambling odds shift towards them, you can expect somethng more dramatic.
It is my hope that the public will see it for what it is and be repelled. Remember - we have the internet and Bush and McCain don't know that.
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202, nessie.
I went to YouTube to see what they were saying about the attack. The Americans say they are investigating. Syrian News has an account plus pictures of helicopters. It is entirely in Arabic and mine is primitive so I did not come away with much. Apparently all of the dead and injured were civilians, half of whom were a family.
No doubt the US will want to take time to make a reply that justifies the raid. You can see these clips on YouTube now. I assume the Syrian clip will be removed at some time. Am I jaded? Yes.
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If Palin was foisted on McCain in order to win an election, then the whole Republican Party needs to be wiped out. Palin is unqualified and represents America's lowest denominator. She is also delusional in aspiring to be the Republican's next presidential candidate.
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206
"Jaded" is the rational response after our last 8 years.
207
Take another look at the adoring faces at her rallies. She may not be delusional, she may see a very real opening there.
I agree with your statement that she represents "America's lowest common denominator."
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Amusing to see a poster on here naming himself after a totally descredited blogger.
But I may have an answer to this whole 'the media is biased' whine from some Republicans.
It's being unused to see a source that at least tries to be even handed.
When you are used to only watching laughingly biased 'news' channels, reading polemics in print and on line, emerging from this comfort zone must be disorientating.
I noticed while in New York just before the 2004 election, bookstore windows full of works about that upcoming election.
Many were polemics, which have so little respect for any intelligence that their target readership might have, they had to have bold synopsis on the cover such 'How Kerry will.....'
or 'Threat Of.......'
In other words, they are for one thing only.
Preaching to the converted.
Then there is the issue that many of the more rabid types, have this almost comic-book like view of the US and more negatively, the rest of the World.
So seeing something more balanced, more informed, (the BBC have the biggest worldwide news gathering in the world), not pandering to a particular mindset, thus not conforming to this view, must be like emerging into the light after a period in darkness.
Charles Krauthammer has been mentioned on here, that's him who assured his readers, (driven by this comic book worldview), that flowers would indeed greet the US in Iraq, that Afghanistan was over and done by the end of 2001.
Just another idiot living in a fantasy world.
Anyone in the UK see that BBC programme The Conspiracy Files the other night?
Where it, as in previous programmes, neatly destroyed the nonsense about WTC tower 7 being 'blown up by the government'.
They allowed the '9/11 Truthers' their (expletive ridden) say, then went with the science, the real eyewitnesses.
A lesson for FOX and similar.
But I mention it too because aren't these 'truthers' missing something fundamental?
The idea that the almost totally incompetent Bush administration even could pull off anything remotely as massive as the 'plots' these people imagine!
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Perhaps Mr Webb could explain what exactly is fair and impartial about his reporting of the American election?
I mean correct me if Im wrong but I believe he has a non-negotiable obligation to providing impartial reporting, as set out in the BBC's charter.
So with that in mind, I challenge anyone here to point out where Webb has gone after Obama with the same zeal that he has gone after Palin and McCain.
Now that shouldnt be hard should it? After all, the BBC HAS to be impartial doesnt it?
Ok, flame fest in 5, 4, 3......
Regards
Mailman
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Are BBC employees contractually prevented from expressing opinions?
And how is it unfair to report positively on someone who is doing positive things and negatively on someone who is doing negative things?
It would be partisan to inject false positivity into a story that didn't merit it, or to fail to report negative aspects. I would suggest from the accounts of this campaign from multiple sources, the BBC is not out of step, either with the majority of the media or with the polls, in their reporting of how this election is unfolding.
If McCain wants equal treatment, or better coverage, he needs to raise his game and earn it. After all, he is fundamentally opposed to free handouts to the needy.
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I fully support the McCain run for presidency. Sarah Palin is a lady who ordinary Americans can connect with. She will be the first female president in the USA in the near term.
Go McCain/Palin 08!
Tobi Warminski
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the fact that palin has pretty much declared her intention to run for president herself in 2012 and has clashed with the mccain campaign team on several issues can hardly make for warm relations.
it's not surprising that she looks through him: as far as she's concerned, he's hardly there, other than to be stepped on to reach her own personal goals.
mccain may have initially thought it a very smart move to choose her as a running mate but he may now feel it had blown up in his face. her naked ambition and inability to fully support his campaign -- while he continues to back her to the hilt -- must feel like blatant treachery.
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