Did McCain do enough?
Here is the extent of the task for McCain.
Here is the best overview I have seen of how well McCain did last night (note particularly the last line).
Here is why the debate may be blown out of the water within hours (or days).
And here's why it matters.
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Canellos' article is really the 'best overview'? Bit early to say that, surely? It reads more like a half-hearted apologia with a degree of despair underlying it to me.
I'm sure (I hope!) there are going to be rather better (by which I mean 'fuller' or 'more considered' analyses than that.
I can't say I've been very impressed by much of this kind of 'instant analysis' I've read in the American press though, the last few months.
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Powell's nod could be the last big credibility boost Obama needs - I hadn't even heard this was in the offing.
As for the debate, it sounds like McCain did pretty well, but he needed a knockout blow that was just never going to happen. If the past weeks have taught his campaign anything, surely it's that the angry approach isn't the way to go any more?
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So Colin Powell has decided to board the gravy train. He was careful to wait until Obama was a shoo in, wasn't he? It reminds me of Russia declaring war on Japan after we beat them. (sneer, sneer)
Who's next? Condelizza Rice?
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I have now watched all of these presidential 'debates' and I am still shocked by what passes as a tough test for the leader of the free world.
Each candidate, though particularly those on the republican side, simply have stump speeches for certain policy areas which they stick to throughout, often repeating and rehashing half baked quotes.
The press from the appropriate corner (because a free press does not apparently mean a competent, responsible or non-partisan press) then picks the bones looking for coherent remarks to put in a newsreel.
Absolutely appalling.
This was the best yet, but the bar was so low that the majority of people I met in my teens debating at the Model United Nations could have done better.
Obama was the only one eliciting independent, on the spot thought out there tonight and he did it without stumbling and with succinct points.
I believe he could have done better and could hold his own in a real debate (unlike McCain) the problem is that he isn't required to, and if he did nobody would be interested.
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Possibly a fair overview, but I think that the underlying problem for McCain is that he didn't score any major hits. If the McCain campaign is hoping that a few presidential debates would swing this election, then really their campaign plan is pretty poor. Looking at Obama's performances I am not sure that he has been playing to win exactly - his performances have been cool and focused, but hardly exhilirating. I suspect rather that he has tried to 'draw' with McCain on these debates and thus neutralise him. At this stage, Obama doesn't need to win any debate if he is ahead. Perhaps if the race was closer, he might have felt more inclined to take a risk and take the fight back to McCain.
That news about Powell would add another shock element to this highly surprising campaign. It would also be another devastating knock to McCain's campaign.
On that note, there's still 3 weeks to go. McCain's windows of opportunities are growing smaller and smaller. Obama's camapigns, hisotrically, have gained momentum in the last few weeks of a camapign (if his primary camapign is anything to go by). To use an analogy that the US might appreciate - Obama's got plenty of clips left for his gun, but is McCain only left with blanks?
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McCain did enough for sure, enough damage to his campaign to almost surely scuttle it onto the rocks of history. The last thing he should have done was to act like a typical mud slinging politician, which he apparently is. Going heavy on the negative and light on content, McCain showed his true old school Republican roots.
The whole world is in the midst of an unprecedented economic crisis and the best he could do was indulge himself in the usual finger pointing about who's pork barrel is the biggest, with accusations about a moth bitten 1960's bomb throwing hippie tossed in for good measure. Well, on the bright side, Sara and John can always fall back on their day jobs. At least they still have jobs!
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5, Dayvine.
Goodness me, you sound as jaded as a true American. The only thing that gives you away is using that silly term "free world." Only politicians are allowed to say that.
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NO..........................
............. and there is an increasing *something* of the desperado about him wanting to land this Oval Office prize at any cost. I expect anything and everything to be piped up from the bilges from now on in.
Nothing can be taken for granted, but if General Colin Powell takes this next step, as mooted, then it will be a seriously major bound forward for Sen Barack Obama.
Bill
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I bet Joe's business is going to be a resounding success now- everyone is going to want the celebrity plumber fixing their pipes! He won't have to worry about tax now, he'll have plenty of money!
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4. ally-m
.... thats a view A, but I dont buy it. I believe Colin Powell is actually a far straighter and honest guy than a whole lot of the gang up on Capitol Hill.
His treatment, courtesy of current Administration? What goes around comes round as they say and maybe not doing an early Lieberman, timing-wise, tells us something about character?
...... and finding himself as a potential trump card to launch a one way electoral cruise missile straight into the GOP political centrum? We will all know shortly when the timing is right and maybe not just from him either.
Bill
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I somehow suspect that, the more we learn about Joe, the more he will regret his 15 minutes of fame. Already -- per Ben Smith of Politico -- people are looking through the voter rolls for his name (and not finding it listed there).
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3, deeperwell42 wrote:
"Powell's nod could be the last big credibility boost Obama needs - I hadn't even heard this was in the offing."
The gist of my Post 1 was basically 'why should the endorsement of a General matter so much anyway?' It doesn't make sense to Brits at all. Or to most Europeans post de Gaulle.
But I can think of at least three ways without taxing my brain overhard in which the McCain team (or at least Palin) might belittle, or diminish it if they want to continue their negative campaign.
It seems, however, even if I merely hint at one of them, the current moderating team think I'm endorsing it.
I'm fairly confident that all three will turn up in posts here later today though given the track record of some contributors.
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11, Bill.
Tactically you might be right. But when he became Bush's lackey a lot of people lost respect for him. Among them were plenty of blacks. I can't help but wonder if he is looking for a job.
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Powell will be an interesting element. I doubt if Obama will take him under his wing as that would create too many links with the Bush administration.
More likely, he will play it down and let the action speak for itself.
The Obama campaign has been much more capable of seeding the media and general public perception of late and I don't think they are going to start acting up now.
McCain, on the other hand, has already declared open season on the Bush administration, verbally at least, despite actually agreeing with most of its policies.
I expect that somewhere a 'spokesperson' will start talking about Powell being an architect of a failed Iraq policy and explicitly disagreeing with the troop surge, though I wouldn't put it past McCain to come out with the comment himself.
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Colin Powell has been talking for a long time about endorsing Obama. He has not said when he will do it. When I used Justin's link for the Powell article, the headline would appear briefly, and then disappear.
A couple of minutes ago I went directly to Huffington. The article was not on the politics page, but a search found it for me. It was way down below a list of older articles about Powell. The article in quetion contains no statement from Powell, and does not suggest his endorsement is a done deal.
At one time Powell was the great black hope, just as Christie Whitman (former governor of New Jersey) was the great female hope. They both were sullied by their cooperation with the Bush administration.
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Marbles
Do you think that maybe Powell has something of a score to settle with the Buch regime (and by association the Republicans). He was sent to the UN pre-invasion to sell the world a turkey over WMD which affected his fine legacy/reputation.
I agree that to restore his status he might like an nice Ambassadorship - and he would be welcome most anywhere.
Goodness, I would LOVE to see him endorse Obama after that bad tempered session by McCain last night.
Who, incidentally, has the gall to bang on about reform whilst indulging in low-down, old-fashioned mud-slining of a totally unreformed kind.
Sleep well Marbles.
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16, clarification.
Powell and Whitman were both sullied by their involvement with the Bush administration because they compromised their beliefs. It was discouraging to those who admired them.
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Not only did McCain NOT do enough he simply lacked statesman-like leadership qualities. He had a clenched tooth grimmace on his face most of the time which only helped make him look meanspirited and frankly like a ticking bomb. His gulping of air and laboured breathing was audible throughout and likely was a good indicator of his well known short fuse temper. He clearly disdains Obama and unfortunately is shows. Furthermore his stump-speech answers lacked the clarity of vision that Obama's had. If Colin Powell does come out for Obama in the next few hours (or days) then even the well prepared - and executed - sound bite of McCain distancing himself from Bush will come off its endless repeat cycle. Powell was used and allowed himself to be used by the Bush-Cheney bullyboys but he was and likely remains a hugely respected general, politician and true statesman. Let's hope he does it quick!
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Talking of Ambassadorships, which seem to be the great American reward for political support, the thought of Arianna as US Ambassador to the Court of St. James, slightly tempers my devotion to the Obama cause.
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17, eightypercent.
I think Powell was probably looking for a special reward for support. My opinion of Powell is tarnished. Maybe Obama's is too. In any case, Obama does not need Powell, and there may be many who would not like to see his image burnished and restored.
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It seems Colin wants his old job back! He let the normal rational person down in the build up to the Iraq war; perhaps he wants to make amends!
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I am very glad to see that other blogs have picked up on the issue I wrote about immediately after the debate - that McCain had indulged in a desperately misleading piece of myth-making.
After Obama had introduced the word 'autism' McCain claimed that Sarah Palin was an expert in these matters.
She is NOT. She has a baby under six months old with Down's Syndrome (but has neverthless made the personal choice to devote her time to her career advancement).
OK, she has said that if elected VP she would work for special needs children, but from the evidence of the work that she has done so far on the trail, I have my doubts that she would be the best person to fulfil that pledge.
But McCain - out of sheer opportunism, - misled everyone over a serious issue and all those people dealing with these matters will be able to see through his claim. He needs to be called out on it.
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20, eightypercent.
For embassador to the Court of St. James they always choose someone who is estremely wealthy, because the U.S. does not cover the cost of lavish entertaining, etc. That is why we have sent you so many clowns.
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british-ish,
"Why should the endorsement of a General matter so much anyway?"
Because the President of the U.S. is also Commander in Chief of the nation's armed forces - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. No one has the power to override his commands. NO ONE. And more than half of the U.S. Presidents never served in active combat yet they are given control of the entire military apparatus of the U.S.
What took place at the Democratic National Convention over a month ago was unprecedented in U.S. political history. A phalanx of retired Generals from every branch of the military coming onstage in support of Senator Obama and the Democatic ticket. We're at war in two countries and it is the men and women of the military who are paying with their lives, not the President. The retired Generals were saying, by their presence at the DNC in support of the Democratic platform (which included military policy regarding Iraq and Afghanistan), that they do not support the current military policies of the Bush Administration.
In wartime, especially in wartime, if recently retired Generals come out and say, "The current President's military policies are wrong" it tends to grab the attention of the American public.
Think of it as an nuclear bomb level vote of No Confidence.
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22, dceiler.
I would not be quick to forgive Powell. I am not sure he is trustworthy. Whitman is another story. When it was getting too much for her and she realized she could not achieve her goals, she got up and left.
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23, eightypercent.
Palin is yesterday's news. She is an old-timey political hack, and ignorant to boot. She will go back to meese hunting and watching Russia.
She is so enept that she did not even know that there were energy meetings taking place with Russians in her own state, Alaska, while she was ranting on the stump.
Goodbye to her and good riddance.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, THIS is the eponymous "October Surprise."
Many people grumble about the fact that Mr. Powell served in the Bush administration and helped sell the rest of the world a raw bill of goods on invading Iraq. I personally believe he got pole-axed by Bush's staff before having to give that blasted (and long-discredited) speech to the U.N. council. Or, to use the modern phrase, Colin Powell got mightily "Thrown Under The Bus" as one of the endorsers of the Iraq war.
It was telling that he exited stage-left (along with several other people) as soon as Bush's first term was over. That sort of redeemed him in my eyes.
Powell still carries a lot of "street cred" with most of Americans, including (I'm wildly assuming, here) all-important moderates and Independent voters. If he were to give his endorsement--and his reasons are well thought-out and articulated--this, along with other snowballing factors, would finally put paid to McCain's campaign. No matter what else he may try--above or below-board--to eke out a victory in the next three weeks, I truly don't think John McCain's campaign would survive Powell endorsing Obama.
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Why has the agenda of your last few day's bloging been about McCain's catch up task. Its an aspect of the story but it's not the story. It suggests a view that he is the default president and just has to find a way to get there.
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FiveThirtyEight has McCain doing well right up until he accused Obama of being the negative one as most people went in thinking McCain had been the more negative. It then went to pieces for him by trying to uncomfortably segue back into the economy.
Personally, I got a bit sick of Joe the Plumber. I think he should have got a picture of a kitten in a plumber outfit and used that to pull on the heart strings. "That one wants to raise taxes for everyone, even kittens." might have worked.
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Powel endorsing Obama is not that serious compared to the former Democrat VP candidate Liberman's vocal support of McCain i.e. his appearance at the Republican convention
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I was just listening to some songs by one of my greatest musical heroes. That inspired a little googling, and I soon stumbled upon a couple of his remarks which go to the heart of what's happening in America today.
"The fortunes of the entire world may well ride on the ability of young Americans to face the responsibilities of an old America gone mad."
"Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make the attempt. That''s morality, that's religion, that's art, that's life."
The man who said those things is one of America's most courageous artists ever, Phil Ochs (1940-1976). For what it's worth, I think he's (still) worth a listen.
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So actually John McCain has never even met his 'good friend' Joe the Plumber' (see Katy Couric interview)
That sort of explains his relationship with all these other 'good friends' of his - including people like Teddy Roosevelt who was dead before even HE was born.
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Ms trish & Ally
....... my waters tell me that Colin Powell learned a very hard political lesson during his introductory phase in the vipers nest.
His goodwill and career military professionalism was breakfasted on and completely pillaged in order to meet a darker agenda needing to be sold by others. Senior military Army commanders are soldiers first - men who have grown up in a culture of leading but all the while adhering to the whims of political masters. not are leaders.
I am sure he would be the first to admit this and probably regrets being sold a political hospital pass of the first order?
But for me, this should not preclude him from being rehabilitated based on the merits of his track record of military and public service and a man who I do believe has solid and genuine core values.
Bill
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25 Miss-Trish
I also believe that most senior military personnel were highly peed off when Rumsfeld ignored his own generals in order to try out his "technology over personnel" theories in Iraq. At the same time he overode his more senior SoS, Powell, by effectively reducing the State Dept to a branch of Defence.
All my Marbles. I think you're being a little hard on Powell. Towards the end he was looking highly confused and angry about his role and position as SoS. I suspect that, as a military man, he couldn't understand how a chain of command could be so openly bypassed. Naive, yes, but not dishonorable.
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I believe that McCain's last ditch effort to win the election will be to get President (but not for much longer thankfully) Bush to endorse Obama.
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McCain came acros as a desperate, angry man, Obama cool and collected, smiling as the anger intensified. The grimacing, blinking and rolling of the eyes only made McCain look like he was playing the role of the grumpy old man. Attacks were not what were needed, but that was his strategy, and not a winning one.
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36. Ooooh!
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Better late than never for Colin Powell. I guess this is the icing on the cake for Obama.
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if bill ayers was a terrorist, would he not be locked up? how did this even become an issue? both campaigns have floundered to different and new levels of ridiculousness.
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15
McCain, on the other hand, has already declared open season on the Bush administration, verbally at least, despite actually agreeing with most of its policies.
Good god, I bet there will be a few in the West Wing if Cheney's let lose. Guns and the current VP are a bad combination!
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Posted on a previous blog before finding this was here.
My explanation of last night's draw:
- McCain got points for taking the fight to Obama, throwing (as the World Service interview said) everything but the kitchen sink at him. Obama got points for defending everything.
- McCain got points for making Obama explain Ayers and ACORN - the actual issue isn't relevant, but McCain forced him into a corner. Despite Obama's awkwardly long and detailed answers, Obama got points for defending these two points comprehensively.
- McCain got points for being energised and feisty, Obama got points for being calm and composed.
- Both held decent cases on abortion, even if McCain was maybe fibbing slightly about his pure "pro-life" stance. (That said, Obama was the first to actually come out with a view; McCain answered first but only came out with an opinion after seeing Obama do so.)
- McCain lost points on body language (as #49 BillTyrone points out) for looking flustered and ill-tempered. Obama's was generally good but looked strange when chuckling to himself, head down.
- McCain lost points for being erratic the whole debate, constantly changing tack in trying (and failing) to land a heavy blow. Obama lost points for being slightly dull and lacklustre, and not criticising McCain much at all (I refer to this wonderful piece by The Onion).
etc. etc. etc.
Therefore the debate was a draw. A commendable performance from McCain considering the awfulness of his recent campaign. But certainly not enough to persuade independents that he won. Crucially his strength in this debate was on character, being feisty and sharp, but was extremely unconvincing on his policies (or lack of). Obama was dull compared to his many electrifying speeches and could have done a lot better, but won on policy which is surely the most important issue right now.
P.S. Bob Schieffer got points for making candidates answer the questions and debate with each other, but lost them on saying "climate control" instead of "climate change". Brilliant.
P.P.S. After all that, yes, Powell's endorsement would rather render this debate completely irrelevant.
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#26 All my Marbles
My gut instinct was that Powell was exploited by the Hawks to be their mouth piece, but I suppose he shouldn't have been that naive - was he in the wrong crowd?
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The best punch came with McCain whining that Obama hadn't "repudiated" Lewis' criticisms and Obama hit back that people were yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" when Obama's name came up at Palin rallies. A fine example to debaters of how to turn a childish, trivial protest against its originator.
Colin Powell has every reason to endorse Obama, with one poll now registering a 14% Obama lead nationally. Any more readings like this might prompt analysts to begin talking of a landslide and the effects that might have on the house results.
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The BBC's HARDTALK had a paid mouthpiece of the "Christian Right" on this morning.
Saquier let him say his piece.
Whether these folk are as dumb and as manipulated as many think may determine the outcome of the US election.
It appears to me that there "is no tomorrow" for the USA if these folk reinstall the existing regime.
Win or lose, the World should start organizing for non-USA leadership- now!
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25 M-T
"..Because the President of the U.S. is also Commander in Chief of the nation's armed forces - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. No one has the power to override his commands. NO ONE.."
I know many countries around the world do not have the military might of the US, but leaders of many countries can also take their armed forces into battle, just as the US Pres can....so I'm not sure what point you are making.
Just look at Georgia, as an example.
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I think McCain did enough to keep his dignity but nowhere near enough to be considered the winner.
The problem is his general mood and demeanour - he just comes accross as a grumpy curmudgeon who has got out of bed the wrong side and who cant find his slippers.
I'm sure hes very pleasent, charming and engaging in private but its the public persona people are seeing.
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Weird that McCain should end his final message in the finale debate by appealing to nepotism (lines of McCains ....)
After the Bush family and the fate the befell Hillary Clint, I rather thought that nepotism was out this year.
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It does not seem that Colin Powell is angling at a job in an Obama administration. He has already been seen auditioning for his next vocation - as a 'wicked' hip-hop dancer!
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Justin, "Here" is not adequate link text, for purposes of accessibility, usability and general usefulness.
"the extent of the task for McCain", "why it matters" and so on are useful.
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49 80%
Yes, i thought that too...
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The most interesting part of the debate for me, besides McCain's exaggerated expression of bewilderment, was his focus on "Joe the Plumber" and what that metaphor implies. Obviously, his goal was to insinuate that Obama plans to raise small business taxes by suggesting, erroneously, that small businesses would be affected by Obama's plan to raise the taxes of those making over $250K.
Most small businesses make less than that amount and, most importantly, most wealthy Americans are concerned by the fiscal debacle we have and are willing to pay their fair share of taxes to help us overcome the effects of the fiscal insanity created by the Bush Administration.
Fiscal irresponsibility, and the "borrow and spend" policies created by the Bush Administration to project an illusion of prosperity are the main reason for the fiscal and economic problems that are destroying our economy and the world's economy. McCain's plan to perpetuate the tax cuts to the top 5% of our population is a tacit endorsement of Bush policies and guarantees the long term demise of our country.
If there is one reason to reject McCain's bid for the Presidency, fiscal irresponsibility is it.
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No.23
Quote:
After Obama had introduced the word 'autism' McCain claimed that Sarah Palin was an expert in these matters.
She is NOT. She has a baby under six months old with Down's Syndrome (but has neverthless made the personal choice to devote her time to her career advancement).
Unquote
Palin's sister has an autistic child, therefore I would imagine she has first hand knowledge of the difficulties that parents face with this brain development disorder. Regarding Special Needs, the majority of the best advocates are the parents and I should know because I am one of them.
Quote:
OK, she has said that if elected VP she would work for special needs children, but from the evidence of the work that she has done so far on the trail, I have my doubts that she would be the best person to fulfil that pledge.
Unquote
If you look at the her record from Alaska, 1. in a boom time she did not spend more but reduced the overall budget, 2. Taxes from big oil companies were returned back to the members of the community, come on what more do you want!
Message to all ........
What is it with all you people, I have never know such hostility to one person, she is taking more stick than McCain, Obama and Biden. Is the whole world afraid because she is a woman, or because she's not the typical run of the mill. I am sure you'd give her more of an opportunity if she was of mixed genes like Obama!
Oh and perhaps we should thank her for adding some life and real colour to what was the turning out to be the most boring Election in history ....
Regards,
Justaline, looking outside the box
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Gen. Colin Power was obviously used by the Bush Administration to achieve their goal of launching an unprovoked attack against a country that was not a threat to us, and one that had been a staunch ally of the USA for decades.
Powell's presentation at the UN when he showed us imagery that purportedly confirmed the existance of warehouses and trucks used to transport nuclear weapons and WMDs using a mobile system designed to minimize vulnerability and reduce the effectiveness of international inspections was an embarrassment that ruined his career and what was until then an unblemished reputation.
Being the loyal military officer that he is he left the Administration quietly, and with great dignity, tacitly taking the blame for something that others had concocted. In effect, he was the Oliver North of the 21st century.
I doubt he will accept a Cabinet post in an Obama Administration or anyone else's, but if he did he would make an outstanding Secretary of Defense or Secretary of State.
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McCain started well, but he started to lose it by always wanting to have the last word and after half an hour he lost his self-discipline. On body language , tone and conduct, the candidate who appeared presidential was Obama; McCain looked like a septuagenarian schoolboy: someone who has never really emotionally grown-up, and he was petulant rather than purposeful about Lewis and Ayers, and about Obama's financial advantage.
Looking about this morning, there are some who clearly want to say that this was McCain's best debate. Perhaps it was. If so, best was not good enough. The first reactions on CNN and CBS suggest that Obama kept his base happy and re-assured independents; whereas McCain, while he kept his base happy was unable to make Obama's base doubt or the independent voter swing. For what it is worth, this is the comment on CNN:
"Fifty-eight percent of debate watchers questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll said Democratic candidate Obama did the best job in the debate, with 31 percent saying Republican Sen. John McCain performed best.
The poll also suggests that debate watchers' favorable opinion of Obama rose slightly during the debate, from 63 percent at the start to 66 percent at the end. The poll indicates that McCain's favorables dropped slightly, from 51 percent to 49 percent."
What that indicates is that McCain did not succeed in doing what he needed to do, whereas Obama did; and perhaps most crucually Obama looked like a President, McCain did not.
I'm sure that Powell's endorsement will reassure those independent voters that worry about Obama's national security profile and his experience; that takes away McCain's last card. Equally important is the fact that the markets have started to focus on the long-term consequences of all these bail outs for growth and the global economy. They've realised that the next 5-10 years in economic growth terms is going to be rather dull because of all the extra government debt that has been taken on and the writedown in capital assets. As a consequence the stock market has resumed its fall with perhaps another 15-20% to go before it finds a real floor from whence it can consolidate. Every day the market drops between now and the election is a bad day for McCain.
I think the question now is whether Obama's lead consolidates at about 6-8% or whether it snowballs into a 380-400ECV victory.
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56
I doubt whether Powell would take to being compared to the "shredder"!
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I don't really see why Powell's late endorsement will affect anyone, democratic or republican (or undecided)
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#54, DV, here is what Joe the plumber thinks.
I have to say that there is a big point here: small
companies like "Joe the Plumber" will pay more
under Obama's plan to pay for tax cuts for the
middle class. Far from helping small business,
Obama is penalizing it.
I thought that Obama was going after big
corporations that ship job overseas, not my
local plumber.
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Justaline,
I'm pretty sure I read that Palin cut the budget for special needs in Alaska by a fairly hefty amount.
On your other points, she only gets stick because she is an idiot and a zealot, nothing to do with sex or colour.
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Canello's article describes the journalistic point of view, but Obama stuck logically to what has worked and he was probably correct: Let McCain attack, and McCain will tank. Obama's campaign is not broken and he was right not to `fix' it. Their campaign is riding on steel rails. I don't think the GOP McCain-Palin campaign is fixable. They are like pro/anti-European British Tories constantly contradicting each other with every nuanced statement. And people probably sense the schizophrenia that would carry over into the White House.
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I just logged into Fox News site and there's an Ad for "are you brighter than a celebrity" which states that: Sarah Palin IQ = 116. I wonder which ad exec with a lower IQ allowed that?
Now, that is seriously embarrassing if they're still trying to re-assure voters of Palins credentials.
If I was Obama I'd cut just cut and paste the whole Fox page for my next ad!
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#55 Justaline
Your comments place you within the section of global society marked "ignorant".
"perhaps we should thank her for adding some life and real colour to what was the turning out to be the most boring Election in history"
What? Sorry I didn't realise the election is a 4-yearly entertainment bash. All elections are boring in some degree. SO WHAT. Elections are important, and this election is more important than any in recent history. Whether or not people found it less entertaining than Saturday Night Live like you seem to have is completely besides the point - people will VOTE because it's important. If you want to give Palin a medal for being some kind of Christian fundamentalist court jester, off you go, don't let anyone delay you on your way to Alaska.
Sarah Palin was a brazenly cynical choice for VP - McCain's attempt to 1) pick up women voters from Hillary Clinton, and 2) appeal to a hardcore Republican base who never found him convincing, all in one go. Thankfully for the former, it appears many women don't connect with her just because she has a vagina, and the media excitement has worn off / been tarnished by the shocking, lazy and last-Republican-resort of the "terrorist" tag. Thankfully for the latter, many people are realising this aligns her with the current administration which has FAILED.
Her ignorance and her negative attitude make her entirely unsuitable for a springboard to the most powerful job in the world - being donated a crash course in foreign policy with U.N. leaders was quite frankly embarrassing for everyone - and just because they make some Americans feel "cosy" and that she is "just like them" doesn't qualify her as a politician.
Voting for someone who is "just like you" shows an appalling lack of brainpower, especially after the last 8 years, especially after Bush was someone "just like you", and especially when it's Sarah Palin.
Your comment about "mixed genes" is not quite racist itself, but you suggest the commenters on this board are, which is 1) incorrect and 2) unacceptable.
I'm sure she bakes a wonderful moose pie.
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I see that my response to Justalene has been moderated. Don't know why, but I'm happy to stick with squideyes comment at No. 63 - particularly his second paragraph.
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Re : Clueduprock
Good grief ! I got moderated and you got away with all that. Not that I could disagree with a word of it - but I'm still wondering where I went wrong.
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#62 guns
I personally think it's a good call, and I don't think the American dream means the right to buy your own business, but your point remains valid.
What surprises me is Joe's comment about Robin Hood stealing from the rich and giving to the poor - "so if he's calling us peasants, I kind of resent that". Think someone's got the wrong end of the stick...
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#68 eightypercent
Reading it again, my tone is quite harsh, but that hopefully shouldn't get something moderated... (Justalene's "mixed genes" comment arguably could, although I haven't hit the report button myself.) ... it's just the whole "vote for him/her, she's just like us" thing gets my back up.
The moderating can be a little inconsistent...
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An interesting collection of McCain's facial language can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGzfYOp34d8
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Clueduprock :
I agree that the "mixed genes" comment wasn't clever. Nor was the assumption that everyone who criticises Palin is male because, unless things have changed a lot since I got dressed this morning, they assuredly aren't.
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How interesting. Colin Powell lied to the American people and the entire world when he stood up at the UN and outlined the WMD's that Sadaam Hussein had. And therefore was responsible for this misguided war almost to the same extent as George Bush and Dick Cheney and people still think his opinion counts? He was either aware he was selling a lie or too stupid to know it. Neither scenario gives me confidence in his judgment. Oh and 98% of African Americans support Obama so you are telling me that if Colin Powell endorses Obama it means anything? Only in the sycophantic minds of the media.
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No. 63
Not sure on those statistics., well with every department there are huge amounts of money being wasted, I see it here in Spain and I know it's the same in the UK where I was born. Whoever gets in needs to go through all departments and give them more than a major clean up.
Quote:
On your other points, she only gets stick because she is an idiot and a zealot, nothing to do with sex or colour.
Unquote
Zealot, that's her personal choice, and aren't we lucky that we can still have a choice!
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This was a strange article to pick as an overview. Although so much of the comment in the American media, plenty of the more independent opinion was that Obama did what he had to do - look calm and Presidential.
However, what is actually important is what the voters thought and the focus groups and early polls gave it overwhelmingly to Obama.
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McCain clearly won the debate.
He exposed the flaws in Obama's economic plan and his assciations.
Does it matter?
No
As I mentioned earlier Obama is like teflon now.
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I have to weigh in against the obamadroids here. Please tell me one thing the man did for his constituents when he was a senator in Illinois for 8 years? Nothing. Except give them completely unacceptable public housing via those public private partnerships he loves so much with the likes of Tony Rezko. As a community organizer for 3 years? Nothing-the asbestos is still there. This is what you can expect from him as president. There is nothing in Obama's record that makes him a democrat and certainly not a liberal. Oh and Brits, should he win the presidency watch out because his track record is as soon as he has won to begin running for the next office and that would be what, King of the world?
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Zealot (OED) :
Uncompromising or extreme partisan; fanatic.
Maverick (OED) :
Unorthodox or undisciplined person
Presidential attributes ? In these times ? Ever ?
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#32 "The fortunes of the entire world may well ride on the ability of young Americans to face the responsibilities of an old America gone mad."
and that was the challenge of folks back in the 1960's. It is not the people, it is the system that rejects anyone of principle and integrity. No matter who goes to Washington, in all likelyhood they will be corrupted.
Anyone who remains above the fray and retains their higher values, (such as honesty, Integrity, compassionate etc) is ejected by a system that rewards greed, fear, sycophantism, nepotism etc. Basically the dark side of the human persona.
If BO is elected, and he begins to make the changes he promises, I will be thrilled. He deserves it, but most of all many millions of americans deserve it.
The Lehman Brothers executives giving themselves fat million dollar bonuses just before they want belly up, will long remain in my memory as the symptom of this big malaise.
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#74 Bornagaindem:
"Oh and 98% of African Americans support Obama so you are telling me that if Colin Powell endorses Obama it means anything? Only in the sycophantic minds of the media."
I think the media impact is the point of a Powell endorsement. It would deny the McCain campaign the, "oxygen of publicity", just when it needs it most. Agreed its unlikely to attract many voters to Obama but it may deflect a few away from McCain
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McCain finallty lost all my respect when he went negative. Not becasue he went negative mind you; that happens all the time in the US. It is the "cheesiness" of the Ads that has surprized me. They look poorly produced and unimaginative, as if he were running for mayor of some Medium size 'burb in lower Delaware or the post of Camden County Dogcatcher, rather than President. Maybe that's the Sara Palin effect. Keep it folksy and cheap
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#77 Magickirin:
"Does it matter?
No
As I mentioned earlier Obama is like teflon now."
Prepare yourself for a shock Magickirin, I agree with you. There comes a point in a political campaign where if the media concludes one side is a certain winner that they start thinking of the effect on themselves if they annoy the soon to be president/primeminister. No political journalist wants to be the one who never gets picked to ask questions at press conferences, or gets their requests for interviews turned down in favour of a rival.
Classic example was the Murdoch press deserting the Tories in the run up to the 1997 UK General Election.
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No he didn't.
Here is an interesting website. The EV Distribution graph sums it all up really.
Adios John. Hello President Obama.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
It's the right thing for America, it's the right thing for the world. A change of direction is needed, and soon. McCain offers nothing, other than more of the same old, same old. Same old rhetoric, same old aggression, same old negativity. I believe the American people are tired of the 'same old' and will vote for Obama in what will turn out to be a landslide victory.
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"78. At 12:56pm on 16 Oct 2008, bornagaindem wrote:
I have to weigh in against the obamadroids here. Please tell me one thing the man did for his constituents when he was a senator in Illinois for 8 years? Nothing. Except give them completely unacceptable public housing via those public private partnerships he loves so much with the likes of Tony Rezko. As a community organizer for 3 years?"
SO what are you saying he did do something or he didnt?
Why is public housing unacceptable?
Or he did things you don't like, wow profound political analysis.
" Nothing-the asbestos is still there. This is what you can expect from him as president. There is nothing in Obama's record that makes him a democrat and certainly not a liberal. "
Incomprehensible. He is openly running as a democrat. So what?
"Oh and Brits, should he win the presidency watch out because his track record is as soon as he has won to begin running for the next office and that would be what, King of the world?"
DUnno, a black man with ambition, is that so frightening?
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Ref 62
"I thought that Obama was going after big
corporations that ship job overseas, not my
local plumber."
Guns, as I am sure you are well aware of most Americans, whether they are employees or small business owners, don't make over $250K a year. In fact, 95% of the population of the USA makes a lot less than that.
As an American, I respect and admire Joe the Plumbers business acumen, hard work, and drive and I wish him the best in his endeavors; but if he is so successful and enjoys such a privileged life there is no reason why he shouldn't help pay his fair share for the services that our government provides and that most people want and need. Government services, whether they involve military or social expenditures, are not free and someone has to pay for them. We simply can not afford to continue borrowing and passing the bill to our grandchildren. It is time for all of us to grow up and face responsibility for our decisions.
Those that are concerned about the tax burden of the wealthiest segment of our society should vote for McCain, but those who are struggling to make ends meet, who worry about losing their jobs or small pensions, who have to make a choice between buying food or paying medical co-pays or utility bills, and those that have to look a son or daughter in the eye and tell them they can't afford to pay $1K tuition in a community college have a clear choice this election year: OBAMA.
McCain's commitment to the business community is commendable, and it is a consistent with Republican convictions, but at a time when our country is literally on the verge of bankruptcy what we need are responsible fiscal policies to balance at least reduce our budget deficits while at the same time stimulating the economy, and work programs to put people back to work.
Obama's healthcare solution, while not perfect, would not only make care available to millions of Americans who do not have access to one of our most basic needs, but it would actually alleviate corporate operating costs making them more competitive. Last, but not least, Obama's focus on education is, ostensibly, the most important of all his proposals as it focuses on the need to prepare future generations of Americans for the challenges of the future and ensure we all have the same opportunities to succeed.
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55 Justaline
Message to all ........
What is it with all you people, I have never know such hostility to one person, she is taking more stick than McCain, Obama and Biden. Is the whole world afraid because she is a woman, or because she's not the typical run of the mill. I am sure you'd give her more of an opportunity if she was of mixed genes like Obama!
Oh and perhaps we should thank her for adding some life and real colour to what was the turning out to be the most boring Election in history ....
Regards,
Justaline, looking outside the box
The most boring election in history... This is not the X-factor, or America's Got Tallent. It's a Presidential Election, that could decided the future of the world for years to come. It's a not a school yard scrap, (though Palin's atempting to turn it into one).
As for her becoming the next VP. My god she'll make Thatcher look like the Femnist left! She'll put women's rights back years, particularly the right to have an abortion. Hasn't your country learn't at all? The banning of alchol, caused more problems than not. Do you really want women to go to back street abortion clinics?
And don't get me started on her relious belifes!
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Did McCain do enough? Not by a long way!
Never mind the inversion of causes (subprime caused prices to collapse?) Can anyone else see the total lack of sentence structure in all that? Duh??? Simple barely coherent rambling ranting....dare I say reminiscent of his running mate?Am I the only one who could hardly get his sentences even to parse? All sorts of non-existent grammar results in meaningless strings of words and catchphrases poorly connected, and came out as gibberish to me. Maybe it was me, my bias, and the late hour, but I'm surprised nobody else has commented...
Anyway, Fivethirtyeight have Obama statistically as a 19 to 1 favourite.....
G 'n R (62), He will pay 39% instead of 36% on the (after expenses) revenue above $250,000. A small fractional increase above a sensible threshold. I don't call that "penalising" a business.
Peace to all
ed
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#62, Guns
Here in the UK the average wage is c.£25k/$45k, with the 41% tax rate coming in at £35k/$61k.
I believe the average wage in the USA was around $35k (in 2007) though because many of your costs are lower the buying power is doubtless greater.
Nevertheless the thought that you'd only get to (even under Obama's plans) 39% tax at $250k/£143k is something that many people would welcome. And any tax that only cuts in at seven times the average income can fairly be said to be a tax on the rich, not a tax on the general middle class.
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The claims of unfair treatment towards Sarah Palin ignore the fact that both Obama and Biden have been ignoring her from the outset. They rarely acknowledge her existance and don't bother with personal attacks against her, in contrast with the hate-filled attacks from her.
The media has covered her record the same way they have covered everyone else's, particularly Obama's. Unfortunately, the GOP is accustomed to make threats, lurch insults, and get away with it; and find it difficult to accept challenges from the opposition. Her supporters should tune in to FOX News and the Rush Limbaugh radio show and remain there until after the election when her focus will return to killing wolves, hunting moose, and the bridge to nowhere.
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"John McCain won on points but lost the debate."
was about my take on it as well. The problem with personal attacks is that while they may or may not diminish your opponent's standing and credibility, they certainly diminish your own.
The choice as the average, attention-span-challenged American saw it, was between a cool, calm, pleasant-seeming man who talked about the need to refrain from mud-slinging, and a sputtering, furious old man slinging mud.
That said, I thought McCain did a bit better on substance in the portion of the debate I watched.
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Kirin,
Obama easily refuted all of the tenious links to Ayers and ACORN McCain brought up in the debate.
He spoke fluently and coherently and dominated the debate thoughout.
McCain did show a certain improvement on the last two debates and outlined his policies better than before but by no means a win. Most of what he said was aimed at coming across as more of a patriot and "an american just like you all" so there was little content to his statements. Just the usual..
As a die hard GOP supporter you state that McCain won out of blindness. Even your beloved Fox news disagree with you.
Obviously it is hard to move from party lines, I really want Obama to win but still try to be objectionable and reasonable. Certain aspects of his almost certain tenure cause concern but you have to be honest and admit that Obama is a better man for the job.
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Wow No.66
I did get your blood pressure up. Regarding my last paragraph, I never suggested anything of the sort, you are misinterpreting my wording.
Can we make peace please! This world is made for all.
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Quote: "What is it with all you people, I have never know such hostility to one person, she is taking more stick than McCain, Obama and Biden. Is the whole world afraid because she is a woman, or because she's not the typical run of the mill."
The woman card goes out the window when you talk about Sarah Palin. She is unqualified and foolish and her gender makes no difference. And actually she IS run of the mill. She is a cartoon-like dullard, much like Bush, which the non-thinking masses decided seemed like a good thing. But what the non-thinking masses need to get comfortable with is that the person who is ultimately quailified to hold the most powerful position in the world (or so they say) has to be highly intelligent and refined, far beyond the average Joe Six Pack in areas like history, economics, public policy, and international politics. That person isn't like the typical middle American soccer Mom or Dad, nor should they be.
McCain chose her as a token because most Republicans see all women as the same--so put one on the ticket and catch all the Hillary birds in the net. That could not have backfired more elegantly than it did.
Stupid will not cut it this time around no matter how much you think you'd like to have Palin over for a barbecue.
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Ed's back (and I'm glad he took on the task of parsing of the McCainology, a depressing business)
But where's Sam gone now ? Do we need to worry that his passion for the beautiful Michelle has laid him low ? Sam, did you watch her on CBS this morning ? Tell us, Sam.
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13 british-ish wrote:
"The gist of my Post 1 was basically 'why should the endorsement of a General matter so much anyway?' It doesn't make sense to Brits at all. Or to most Europeans post de Gaulle./But I can think of at least three ways without taxing my brain overhard in which the McCain team (or at least Palin) might belittle, or diminish it if they want to continue their negative campaign. "
I think it may be a tad simplistic to describe Powell as just 'a General'. There are a lot of Generals. Powell stands out, it seems to me, because [NB this is from memory so open to correction]
1 He was Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time of the 1st [and rather shorter and more successful] Iraq War
2 He was National Security Adviser and Secretary Of State, the 2 top foreign policy posts
3 He held all these posts in Republican administrations
4 He was the first African-American to hold them
5 As the link of Justin's indicated , he has wide popularity, especially among independents
6 He was considered as a serious candidate for President - I read somewhere that he was considered the only Rep who could have beaten Clinton in 1996
One of the main attack lines against Obama is that he's too inexperienced, esp. in foreign affairs. I'd have thought a Powell endorsement would certainly help to counter that.
British-ish suggests the Reps could 'diminish' such an endorsement by more negative campaigning. Maybe. But I think if they tried to claim eg that the endorsement was only because Obama is African-American, they'd be on even thinner ice than they have been.
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This 'Joe The Plumber'
Any relation to 'Bob The Builder'?
;-)
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Well said Ed, It's funny how easy it is to listen to McCain without realising the mish mash of words that come out. He disguises it well...
So Kirin, what sense do you make of those ramblings? Winner?
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@ #55 Justaline
Are you serious? I have no problem with a female President for the US or any other country, but Sarah Palin, a heartbeat away from the US Presidency?
Even the most bigotted, right wing loon will admit that's a scary thought. She would take America back years, and womens rights with it too.
I'm emigrating to the Moon if by some freak event, McCain & Palin win...
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I listened to the debate because I couldn't bear to watch it.
McCain came across as infirm.
Numerous mispronunciations and stumblings.
He kicked no ass.
He's ready to be rope-a-doped.
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Two thoughts--much work to get to, to earn more for my tax bill...
1. This is FAR from over. An interview this morning about ACORN with an Obama executive from Chicago turned into five minutes of hysteria as she repeatedly tried to change the subject, call names, and talk non-stop to prevent questioners from asking the next question.
Obama and company have reason to worry here, because His explanation last night does not resemble the factual record--not even close.
This is important, because the two big questions surrounding Himself are: Who is this guy?, and Is He telling us the truth?
Sec of State of Ohio now wishes to resist verification of the new flood of voter registrations, most submitted by ACORN.
There is fraud in the air here...FBI raiding offices in state after state. Piles of suspicious registrations dumped at clerks' offices at the last minute, a tactic designed to create chaos.
Holy Hanging Chads, Batman! We think the Dems might be trying to corrupt the system!
And just now, another Obama talking head turning hysterical about His proposed tax policy. They are attempting to staunch the bleeding.
When libs get caught, they begin to chatter and call names, attempting to run out the clock.
They are worried, with reason.
2. Colin Powell matters somewhat, but having kept himself below the radar for four years, not certain it's how much of an impact he will have. (He probably is more visible to Europe than to the US, and blessedly, Europe doesn't vote here--unless ACORN has opened offices in Amsterdam.)
But why would he wait this long? It raises suspicions of opportunism. Joe Lieberman risked a lot early on, has been actively at work for his candidate, willing to face down the party that nominated him for VP in 2000.
This really IS significant.
Those with a memory of 1991 recall that he urged that military operations be suspended against Iraq, just as Schwarzkopf was about to finish off the Republican Guard, and by extension Hussein himself. Tragedy after tragedy followed, culminating in the second Iraq war.
Obviously, not all Powell's fault--the murderer Hussein is culpable for his own crimes. But a huge opportunity was missed to remove a real threat from the region. Missed opportunities create incalculable expense, and Powell had a hand in this one.
This being said, Powell is a man of significant gifts and experience, and I hope his opinions will be sought by the next administration. I had hopes that he would run in 2000.
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Good for a laugh! But is it fun to be laughed AT? A true sign of leadership quality?
Nah!
ed
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Obama was a little too cool during the first part when tax policy was discussed. But the key thing was he was like that throughout the debate, calm and collective. Discussion of tax policy was not the only thing in the debate. For the remainder of the debate, Obama was far better than McCain. McCain was again talking the stuff like "you know me, you trust me to take the country forward". I don't think many would buy that.
The key for McCain is the independent voters. They decide the election. I think Obama scored a lot of points in other topics: health care, education, abortion, energy policy. The first half hour of the debate was flat for Obama, but it did not cost much in the end as he tilted the debate in his favour. I think in the end his cool did work to his favour with McCain's all the grimaces, and anger, and contempt.
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Nope - not enuff. Disagree that McCain won on points - he frequently went off-question, did not rebut Obama points, and his points were in a large part non-specific (and unrealistic - he can't both freeze spending and keep his promises).
Obama clearly won on demeanor, McCain occasionally looking like a complainer, or like he was begging for a sympathy vote. All I heard was the old 'dems tax and spend' rant. The Ayers, ACORN and abortion references just sounded silly and limp, plus he's done a bit of a flip FLOP.
Colin Powell has in the past indicated positive reaction to Obama - he'll get ostracized from the party for an endorsement but then maybe he and Buckley Jr. can start a new rag.
Lastly, McCain just looked too old for office...period, and Palin is just too loose a cannon for your average "joe" - not to mention it is impossible to translate her 'speech' into another language so what would become of foreign policy?
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89
Your comment on UK tax rates needs a quick clarification. In the 2008-09 year, all people get a personal exempt allowance of GBP 6035, the next 34800 is taxed at 20%, and after that (ie. 40835) tax is set at 40%; or put another way, the maximum UK tax rate kicks in at about US 70K, whereas in the States it starts at 250K plus. However, one also needs to factor in the nefarious National Insurance rate of 11% which starts at 5460 and tops out at 40040 with a 1% rate thereafter.
Hence someone on GBP 25K is taxed 3793 plus 2149.40 National Insurance (23.77%); someone on GBP 40K is taxed 6793 plus 3799.40 NI (26.48%); someone on 50K is taxed 10626 plus 3903.40 NI (29.05%).
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On November 5th, Republicans everywhere will be filling the air waves on talk radio and Fox News Channel demanding that their own party picks a "conservative" candidate next time.
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In addition to 105, I should add for those in the US who are comparing their own rates that they need to add in their own private health insurance costs to make a proper comparison, as the cost of health care is covered entirely by the UK tax system.
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13 British-ish,
Powell was not only a general, he was also Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and... ...Secretary of State! besides being considered as a Presidential candidate itself.
You say a general's opinion would not be important in Europe, at least not since De Gaulle. After winning Europe's war Eisenhower also made it to the presidency. Ever since that time the US has been on an imperialist mission (not due to Eisenhower who warned against the military-industrial complex), while Europe has been (finally!) minding it's own business. You have to expect some sort of interest in the opinion of men and women involved in major decisions.
I don't think it's right what the US has been doing in terms of waging war. But your generals are involved in skirmishes. We're invading countries. I don't think it is a reflection on the system or the people's thinking that generals matter. It's a matter of scale.
*****
Back to the DEBATE. I thought McCain sounded OLD. He's beginning to slur his words, man! We don't need another drooling napping Reagan in the white house.
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Squid,
I thought that was Majik's role...;-)
ed
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Justin:
I don't think that John McCain did not do much for the cause of his election campaign...
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You really can't compare the three presidential debates with other kinds of debates (model UN, debating societies, etc.). Scoring debating points off the other candidate would not have served either side. Over the course of this very long campaign, Americans have had ample opportunities to learn what each candidate's policies would be and what their basic personalities are.
The debates were a chance for voters to measure the candidates side by side. What they were looking for was a sign of leadership ability: the ability to stay calm in a tense situation; command of relevant facts; ability to make a cogent case; the willingness to build consensus around a program or idea. Everyone in the country knows that we are in a very tough situation (of our own making) with the financial crisis and two wars. Everyone knows the personality of the president and the administration that got us into this mess. People are perhaps looking for the polar opposite in the hope that the next president can find a way out for us.
Obama didn't need to impress anyone with his eloquence or his intelligence. Even his detractors agree that he is both highly intelligent and highly eloquent. He actually abandoned his eloquent speaking style from the primary campaign as soon as he became nominee. He had to be calm, reassuring, and in control of himself. McCain had to do the same things, but for him that is a higher bar to jump over and he didn't make it.
As for Colin Powell, after the first Gulf War his stature in the US was close to that of Eisenhower after World War II. He projects the same air of calm competence as Eisenhower, actually. He is respected for his personal qualities as much as for his military career. Many people from across the political spectrum would have been comfortable seeing him as president even if they wouldn't have voted for him. There was a lot of speculation that he would enter politics after he retired from the military.
Powell may have broken any last remaining reluctance for people to see a black man in the presidency and thus may have helped Obama before Obama even announced his candidacy.
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ref 92:
Squid you see Obama and perfection.
the only fox analysis I saw was an hour this morning. Predictably the dem said Obama the repub said McCain.
I'll stand by my teflon comment earlier.
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McCain called Obama a crook, a terrorist, a socialist, a liar, and incompetent. What more can he do? Is he credible? Judging from Obama's real relationships with Acorn, the founder of the Weather Underground, Reverend Wright, his statements to Joe the plumber, his time in office, his actions amd statements to date about these relationships, the comments of Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden during the primary season saying he's unfit to be Commander in Chief, McCain is right on target? Is it enough? People get the government they deserve. McCain does not seem to have what it takes to make a good president but Obama will likely be a catastrophe that will make the last 8 years seem paradise by comparison. Yet it appears 3 weeks before the election, Obama who is the greater of the two evils will be the next president. Will America come to its senses? Given how justifiably angry it is with those currently in power it doesn't seem that way. Out of the frying pan into the fire. Small wonder anyone who still has money in their pockets is clutching on to it for dear life.
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101. At 2:48pm on 16 Oct 2008, OldSouth wrote:
1. This is FAR from over. An interview this morning about ACORN with an Obama executive from Chicago turned into five minutes of hysteria as she repeatedly tried to change the subject, call names, and talk non-stop to prevent questioners from asking the next question.
Obama and company have reason to worry here, because His explanation last night does not resemble the factual record--not even close. "
But no one cares. Trouble is the Republicans have tried to slur him since day 1. They have overdone it.
"This is important, because the two big questions surrounding Himself are: Who is this guy?, and Is He telling us the truth?"
Who knows? Does any politician? Again no one cares, it's too late for this
"Sec of State of Ohio now wishes to resist verification of the new flood of voter registrations, most submitted by ACORN.
There is fraud in the air here...FBI raiding offices in state after state. Piles of suspicious registrations dumped at clerks' offices at the last minute, a tactic designed to create chaos."
But no proof and you would not be saying that seeking to enfranchise more people is wrong because many of them would be black?
One could say the right-wing establishment is getting scared.
"Holy Hanging Chads, Batman! We think the Dems might be trying to corrupt the system!"
Well they have had good teachers have they not?
"And just now, another Obama talking head turning hysterical about His proposed tax policy. They are attempting to staunch the bleeding.
When libs get caught, they begin to chatter and call names, attempting to run out the clock. "
Seems like it works though eh? And its better then asking to kill someone as conservatives do.
"2. Colin Powell matters somewhat, but having kept himself below the radar for four years, not certain it's how much of an impact he will have. (He probably is more visible to Europe than to the US, and blessedly, Europe doesn't vote here--unless ACORN has opened offices in Amsterdam.)"
Hmm he is black, but he is respected and has done far more than Joe Lieberman.
"This really IS significant."
You think a has-been Senator gets more kudos then a former COS? Not likely is it.
T"Those with a memory of 1991 recall that he urged that military operations be suspended against Iraq, just as Schwarzkopf was about to finish off the Republican Guard, and by extension Hussein himself. Tragedy after tragedy followed, culminating in the second Iraq war."
Which those with memories will recall McCAin supported.
And did Lieberman fight in either of those wars?
"Obviously, not all Powell's fault--the murderer Hussein is culpable for his own crimes. But a huge opportunity was missed to remove a real threat from the region. Missed opportunities create incalculable expense, and Powell had a hand in this one."
Hmm so the US could have conquered Iraq in the first Gulf war, despite the fact it still has failed to do so in the second.
Neat Reasoning.
I think a bit of basic common sense is in order.
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#101 Oldsouth:
"1. This is FAR from over."
Ssshhhhh! Oldsouth, listen carefully. That sound you can hear? That's the fat lady doing her warm up excercises.
'President Obama'; practice saying it, sure you'll choke on the words at first but it will get easier with time, and you'll have eight years to get used to it. :)
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ref #96
With the all refrences to Colin Powell something should be pointed out.
He has a distaste and major contempt for the way politics is played (who can blame him)
That is a key reason he chose not to run in 2000
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As I was watching I found myself thinking that McCain was starting to look (and sound) more and more like mr Magoo...
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Ref 106
No on Nov 5
First they will complain about voter fraud
Second they will bemoan how this will be the end of the U.S as we know it
Then they will start talking about 2012
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All this talk of Joe six and the Joe lead worker, Well how about recognising the Joe Obama picked.
Joe Biden.
Energy Again first thing NUKE.
And defended the right of people to shout KILL.
Did Not appologise, flat out refused to say that was wrong Paraphrase "I will not put down any of the supporters at my rally,or palins"
Not even the death shouters.
Oh And Justin , you're the most pathetic excuse the BBC has had for a while.
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97. john-In-Dublin wrote:
This 'Joe The Plumber'
Any relation to 'Bob The Builder'?
Don't know, but he must be Democract, as their candidate keeps asking (or used to) "Can we fix it?"
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#114 Marcus Arsicus
Do get down from your soapbox, there's a good chap. It's time to go back to the old people's home.
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OldSouth (post 101) sounds like one of those Americans who come to our lovely capital to get high or laid or both because they can't legally do that at home but still maintains that America is the pinnacle of freedom. The canyons of the American mind are indeed deep and infathomable. Presumably because it was created instead of evolved.
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mark said somewhere the phrase "some thought this mc cains best debate yet"
did make me laugh to think this may have been true.
Pathetic Mc Cotton.
It may have been true but again It's pretty hard to knock the pole off the high jump when it's on the ground anyway.
Any comments like most of Justin's even handed report , that seem to suggest he was anything but a dismal failure , a most pathetic creature who, were he a pet would be on the way to the vets for that final visit.
It gets hard watching them suffer so much.
(hey mC Cotton never apologised)
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# 114 ~ Marcus Arsenicus
"People get the government they deserve". Have you ever thought of moving to Zimbabwe ?
As you always write about money you could keep yourself busy there by watching inflation double on the hour every hour.
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117. At 4:12pm on 16 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #96
With the all refrences to Colin Powell something should be pointed out.
He has a distaste and major contempt for the way politics is played (who can blame him)
That is a key reason he chose not to run in 2000
-------------------------------------
But will he go OBAMA?
I think so.
What would that say to you and how would you react.?
OOOHH lets hope he does say something.
I hope it is a clear distaste for the GOP at the mo. Then I think you would go into meltdown.
after all you did make the effort to get over the obvious.
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122. At 4:22pm on 16 Oct 2008, clueduprock wrote:
#114 Marcus Arsicus
Do get down from your soapbox, there's a good chap. It's time to go back to the old people's home.
----------------------------------------
they kicked him out.
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timohio (111),
And we all know which candidate exhibited those qualities last night. I like your observations on Powell, and agree he may have eased Obama's progress. It was my impression that he would have been open to an invitation from either party, but I may be mistaken.I'm in the group who retain considerable respect for him despite his apparent naivety and the way he was mis-used and discarded by the neocons. It happens all too often to genuine good people - ;-( His endorsement will be icing on Obama's cake, and may go some way towards his own rehabilitation - here's hoping!
Some have commented on the circumstance that Obama is called "black" even though he is juat as white as black, and I had to explain this to a neighbour the other day. The way I see it is that, due to our historical context, anyone with even a small amount of "mixed blood" has grown up experiencing "minority" status, and thus has a certain "black" consciousness. If you are treated as "black", you are black.
In some ways, like the advantage of growing up in a bilingual environment, for the right person (Obama?), I believe it can be turned to advantage. I hasten to add here that, as the almost pure WASP descendent of Southern Planters, I am ready to stand corrected.
Peace to all
ed
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old people thought him too old
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# 117
And the other reason is that his wife would not let him run as she feared for his safety.
Which is quite something when you think that he had spent 30 years as a fighting man - and she reckoned that it was more dangerous in Washington DC.
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The best thing about a dem presidency in my opinion is the hope that the world isn't going to come to such an untimely end as quickly as it would under the GOP.
With any luck emissions will be capped without holding out for developing nations the likes of India and Pakistan to do the same (ie.. not for a long time).
War mongering will with any luck slow down, possibly even stop.
There will also be no crazy VP ranting about how the ice is melting because "that's just what happens nowadays", and we might actually not frazzle/drown as a result.
I know that's a simple way of looking at the big picture but you get my point (all but a handful of you anyways..)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGzfYOp34d8
McAngry!
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Anyone who believes a poll by CNN is nuts. They are a tool of the Democrat party. The non partisan polls show Obama with a 3 or 4 point lead which is within the margin of error. McCain did very well in the debate. He brought up points that people outside the USA do not understand.
To say Obama was unflappable and "bemused" is really taking the mickey. Obama was actually embarassed and flustered at the charges and had little in the way of good responses
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Well, well, well
We discussed yesterday the "Demon Eyes" ad that the Tories used to try and frighten people about Tony Blair in 1997.
Right on cue, the GOP are using a copy of it in Virginia - using the word EVIL no less. Desperate times, desperate people.
See Andrew Sullivan, over at the Daily Dish.
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OLD SOUTH
Powell is considered a bit more authentic than mr Joe lieberman.
As to the first war not having been successfully finished.
It was. the mandate was to repel the invaders not invade.
Bush Snr knew the reasons for stopping.
As ex cia chief I think he might have considered himself up to speed with events and may just have ran some stuff himself.
Not to mention the allies and the international community.
Not to mention while your not fighting there Al Quada would have got REAL REAL REAL BIG.
"Obviously, not all Powell's fault-"
Strange comment.
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#105
1 To fully compare you'd also have to look at local income taxes/rates, and it starts to get a wee bit complicated.
2 A quick spreadsheet model shows my overall tax rate is a touch over 38%. Considering that I get health care included in that, suddenly the American tax system looks punitive.
Mind you, the USA does have the world's best cancer treatment centres/centers, so perhaps you get what you pay for.
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more about joe the plumber, apparently he is not registered to vote :).
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html#comments
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If anyone was unconvinced as to the MSM’s shameful bias in favour of the Obama camp and the duplicity of their poll figures, they need to look no further than the outcome of the last US Presidential debates.
I watched it on CNN and what they had to say immediately after the debate, before they came out with their magical and bogus figures is very instructive. Please bear in mind, that their expert view was unanimous
1stly, their ‘experts’ were of the opinion that Senator Mcain was way above/ahead of Senator Obama in the first 30 – 45 minutes of a 90 minutes debate. Approximately he was by far the better candidate during half of the period of the debate.
2ndly, they were of the opinion that this was Senator Mcain’s best performance ever. They were also of the opinion that whilst he was constantly on the offence, senator Obama was on the defence for the most part of the debate.
3rdly, they were of the opinion that Senator Obama was flat throughout the debate and that this was is worst performance ever.
Based on their above summary, any sane mind should draw only one definite conclusion – A MCAIN VICTORY IN THE DEBATE?? WRONG ACCORDING TO CNN’s SHAMEFUL POLLS!!
Trust CNN and their magic poll numbers. The debate was given to Senator Obama 69% to Senator Mcain 31%.
One does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure that these so called POLLS OF POLLS are padded and rigged by the very jaundiced media to favour Obama. Thank God, that their members are not the only people going to vote, and thankfully their members and ‘experts’ are a very very very tiny minority.
Their actions are very despicable.
I rest my case.
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Jimmy Carter was ushered in under similar circumstances as Obama soon will be and we all know how well THAT worked out...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTNi6-jz8nA&feature=related
Mc Cotton says equine excrement at a debate
what a maverick
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I don't agree, as some have written, that Powell's reputation has been tarnished by Association with Bush 2. Not much, anyway. For a time he was a spokesman for a policy which is now discredited, but we don't what his contribution was behind the scenes in attempting to get a better policy, and ultimately he left.
Adlai Stevenson and Arthur Goldberg were two other statesmen used in a similar way by their Presidents. It just proves that all of these men are human, like the rest of us.
Powell's endorsement of Obama would be the coup de grace to the McCain campaign, I think.
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iceteayo.
what points did mccain bring up that those outside the US wouldnt understand?
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123 jimigorilla
presume you live in the netherlands. if so remember they will not know if you miss direct them when they ask you the way to the ........
Have fun .
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and jim don't tell them about the bike paths or trams until you have thoroughly vetted them.
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Ed
Black people/white people
We have the same thing in the UK with the Black Police Organisation. Lots of them don't look remotely black to me.
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11
I'd agree with you , and Powell was a smart guy so the wait till the end and send it flying approach seems a good one.
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# 133 ~ Icey
Were the beans good ?
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90 sorry who is this palin?
never heard of her.:)
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Ed, you really need to stop winking so much.
It's incredibly disconcerting and reminds me of a frightening someone..
;~) "can I call you Joe?"
shudder.
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I think that McCain himself sunk his own ship. No one needs to help him do it .
He appered like a grouchy old guy in slippers yelling at Kid Obama to get off his lawn !
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Justin Webb--Despite the critics, I think you do a great job of finding interesting articles and starting a discussion. I may not agree with you on every point, but I do appreciate the fact that you expose me to a different perspective.
The people who regularly post--you, too, deserve praise. I have enjoyed this blog so much more because of the people who are posting. As with Justin Webb, I have not always or consistently agreed with everyone, but most of the regulars keep me thinking and wondering long after I leave this page. A lot of people who post to blogs are so obviously partisan and overly emotional that I read it and forget it instantly. Thanks for being thoughtful and striving to be informed.
As for the debate--I appreciate the fact that Justin Webb is trying to develop a path for someone to get out of the hole he is in. I have always had a soft spot for John McCain, and I still sometimes find something he has said intelligent or compassionate when I read it in the paper. Unfortunately, in these televised debates, I have found the whiff or stench of desperation to be a bit too overpowering. I wish it were not so, but it is.
My husband is one of those all-important independent voters, and he is still struggling to make up his mind about who he will vote for. In my mind, it is pretty clear from the debates that if I want my tax money to go to defense and not education or health care or alternative fuel technology, then I should pick McCain. If I value those other things, I need to pick Obama.
According to economists, If I want the economy to get better, I should pick Obama. If I make less than a certain amount, then Obama's tax plan makes more sense for me. If I were wealthier than most people, then I would save the most money under McCain.
If I want to win the war in Iraq, I should pick McCain. If I just want to stop spending ten billion dollars a month on the war in Iraq and don't care about "victory," I should pick Obama.
These are the things that matter. Whether McCain breathed laboriously or Obama smirked arrogantly is meaningless in the face of picking the path that is most in line with the values and assumptions of the majority of Americans.
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20. At 08:23am on 16 Oct 2008, eightypercent wrote:
Talking of Ambassadorships, which seem to be the great American reward for political support, the thought of Arianna as US Ambassador to the Court of St. James, slightly tempers my devotion to the Obama cause.
would you rather a moose ?
Or worse one of palins pals?
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I see the new shift is on duty..... !
As a light aside....... talking about colour..... what a paradox, the fact that those pastey white bods out there are spending *a few dollars more* each year trying to acquire the same tan that someone discussed here has, err, naturlich!
In fact, it would be interesting to work out the dollars accrued of persauding them to skip it next year and bung the saved revenue generated into a pot i) to fix the global economy and save the world and ii) save on skin cancer costs....... how much is the annual global tannning spend anyone????
keep smiling...... the world should keep turning.
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114. , MarcusAureliusII wrote:
McCain called Obama a crook, a terrorist, a socialist, a liar, and incompetent. What more can he do?
You mean your right isn't? (It's Bush doing the nationalisation). True he is following the policies of Brown, but far to late, and if he was allowed to, the Banks would of got away with blue murder, (they still are getting away with murder, but there's not much you can do about, when a government allows banks to become more powerful than it's self).
The only reason Brown and the others are doing this, is because it will be economic suicide if they didn't. It is the Republican Administration that allowed this mess to grow, they could of intervened earlier but they didn't. In fact during G8 and IMF meetings, when Brown proposed sorting the mess out, with stronger international regulation, your government opposed it every time, and look where we our now.
Up S##t creak without the proverbial paddle. McCain has got the opportunity to break from the neo-cons clutches, like the Conservatives 'have done' from Thatcherite clutches, but what does he do spew the same crap as the Bush administration, and asks a rabid pit bull, with a separatist husband to be his VP.
Will America come to its senses?
Hopefully by electing Obama they will.
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so joe the plumber is upset because he doesnt feel it is fair for him to pay more taxes if he is richer. so at 250 000 he is crying about a potential 3% tax increase. the fact is that even with this increase he will still be wealthy and can still live a lif eof luxury in comparison to his fellow american.
Joe believes that his business growing is the result of his and only his hard work?
and not because of the robustness of the economy and the contribution of his countrymen.
If everyone else is struggling because their isnt enough money in the system to educate people to get good jobs, then people will just forget the luxury of having a plumber and fix the drains themselves because they cant afford it.
Ive been to countries with flat tax rates, (a conservatives dream). same rates for rich and poor, and one thing they have in common is that there is a few very wealthy individuals, and no middle class.
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#138 Icetayoa
"One does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure that these so called POLLS OF POLLS are padded and rigged by the very jaundiced media to favour Obama. Thank God, that their members are not the only people going to vote, and thankfully their members and ?experts? are a very very very tiny minority."
Okay so if I get the gist of your argument a poll of several hundred people was biased and unrepresentative but the opinions of what four? six? people in a studio was a true yardstick of the outcome of the debate? Right...
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It's a bit arrogant to claim "Best" related to a subject of this scope.
The main aspect of interest of the latest "debate" is to show how a "real" debate might look if pushed a bit further.
No disrespect to the Mr. Schieffer, who did -in my opinion- the best job of all the moderators in his firmness and forthrightness.
The short discourse on Columbia was a wasted opportunity to blow McCain's cover, as Obama could surely (if he'd shown a bit of cojones outwith the box) have pointed out that the right-wing death-squads and C.I.A. use of drug smuggling are actually encouraged by the White House and Pentagon in that country, which is fast becoming a pariah on the South American continent.
One really amusing aspect to take from all these debates, is the Republican's tactic of hammering on the alleged "Tax and spend" policies of the other side.
It would have been all to easy for Mr. Obama to point out the the R's have been guilty of just that with knobs on -except for the wealthy- and that does not count the burden of the present illegal and costly wars, the unbridled cronyism and encouragement of the money brokers to gut the country's financial system and a White House wink-nod towards their very bail-out at the cost of the likes of "Joe the plumber" (I'm a small business owner by the way, and am hanging on by my fingernails -no $250,000 in my trousers)!
Socialsm for the wealthy is the game of the day and that needs to be hammered on the anvil of discourse to try and move the nation a little leftwards!
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One thing I find irritating about Justin Webb's blogg is that, despite hiding behind a veneer of objectivity, it is so clearly written by a Republican supporter. It should either spell this out explicitly from the outset or drop the pretence of objectivity which does not survive closer scrutiny.
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Do I see some Carter bashing..? That seems to consistently be level 3 of the anti- Obama rhetoric (after "my taxes will go up", and "he's a liberal"). Carter won the Nobel peace prize. He was the first to set up a national energy conservation policy (undermined by the GOP immediately after) -showing what now appears to be amazing foresight. History is slowly and steadily elevating him above both Bushes and Reagan.... His economic policies in hindsight were 'bad for the rich' but, in hindsight, might could have been instrumental in averting a crisis such as we have today (ie, reality-based).
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Re 138:
icetayoa, you seem to have missed a fairly obvious point here. The views expressed by the pundits after the debate (generally that McCain had done well) were just that, the views of pundits. The poll results they released were based on the views of potential voters - who are different people, with different perspectives and priorities. It was not a poll of the 7 or 8 pundits they had on. How can you not grasp this? And how can you maintain that CNN is 'a tool of the Democratic party' when you have stated yourself that the views of some of their pundits were favourable to McCain?
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Personally I thought this account of the debate was superior to the Boston News piece. http://calvininjax.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/obama-fends-off-mccains-attacks/
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re. Ed Iglehart (128)
An interesting thing about both Obama and Powell is that when they both first became prominent there was grumbling from some in the African American community that they weren't really African American. Powell was the child of Jamaican immigrants and Obama, of course, had an African father and a white mother. Neither of them is the descendant of former American slaves. But I agree with you that in the US you are the race that other people consider you to be. Historically there was an advantage for African Americans who were light-skinned enough to "pass." That meant that white people considered them to be white and they were not subjected to Jim Crow laws, even though they may have grown up as culturally African American.
And I also agree wholeheartedly about Powell. A good man who kept bad company. Having spent a lifetime in the military he's probably a good deal more conservative than me, but I have a high opinion of him. It would be good to see someone with his ability and decency back in government service.
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131. At 4:35pm on 16 Oct 2008, squideyes
"The best thing about a dem presidency in my opinion is the hope that the world isn't going to come to such an untimely end as quickly as it would under the GOP"
I have to ask, is not Obama the messiah? You attribute end times to the GOP, is McCain not then the Anti-Christ,.....OMG,.. your saying that it's over either way, just not as quickly with Obama.. LOL
Sorry, I know thats not what you said, it just struck a chord with my warped sense of humor.
#101 Oldsouth
Well put, your discription of dems actually sounds like alot of those here who defend Obama without logic or an even discussion. Obama has good points and has changed minds with facts and plans, that doesn't stop anyone from questioning his party, contacts and historical positions.
If Obama has a fault, it is in his dumping everyone he has ever known, his real and documented connect to ACORN, and his wish to stay seperated from them.
That said, it won't stop those who love him from voting for him, nor will it change the media discription. My vote rides with him at this moment, but we will see how these next nineteen days go. That is why I am so against early voting.
.. wasn't it the middle finger in the dam?
That's how some of the information seems to come accross.
just words,.. just speeches....
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101
Gulf War vs Iraq War, father compared to son:
George H. W. Bush built a massive and inclusive coalition to expel Saddam from Kuwait. That was the mission agreed for the coalition which had unprecedented Arab and Muslim support.
Saddam was expelled to liberate Kuwait in 1991; the Iraqi army was destroyed, inspections followed, no-fly zones were enforced, etc.
Regional feelings were summed up by an American colleague who grew up in Iran:
"yes, he's a real SOB, but people there think he's *our* SOB"
the meaning was that he would be dealt with eventually from within or nearby.
Bush # 41 accomplished his mission and left with the goodwill of his massive coalition, and left Saddam as a tyrant restrained by a inspections and no-fly zones. The repressive response to the Kurd uprising was perhaps the darkest episode in this saga.
The build up in US bases in Saudi Arabia and the region, and presence of so many westerners 1991 and later, provided 'grievances' for early 1990's recruiting by Bin Laden et. al. among extremists, inlcuding 19(?) of the 9/11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia.
Then in 2002, George W. Bush went into Iraq, not linked to 9/11, with a much smaller coalition and almost no regional support.
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moderate_observer (137)
I live in the same part of Ohio as Joe the Plumber and I can say that he is not unique among business owners (or, in his case, would-be business owners) here when it comes to paying taxes. Some of them aren't willing to look any further than their immediate monetary gain. The idea of putting your shoulder to the wheel for the good of the larger community is just foreign to them. It's part of the reason why it's still the rust belt here. No one was suggesting to Joe the Plumber that he couldn't buy the business and make over 250,000 dollars; he would just pay slightly higher taxes on what would still be a very large income. And thanks to the laissez-faire policies of the current administration, he probably can't get a loan to buy the business now anyway.
I once had a neighbor who couldn't see why her property taxes should support the local schools when she didn't have children. Same mindset.
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139. wrote:
Jimmy Carter was ushered in under similar circumstances as Obama soon will be and we all know how well THAT worked out...
He did advocate for oil and water prudence, warning in twenty - thirty years time they would be problems, and what have the US got a 10 year central states draught, causing the great Colorado river to be half empty, and the Bush Administration illegaly invading countries for their oil and please don't me that reteric of WMD's. If there were it was the ones Regean and Rumsfeld gave him and lastly of course democarcy. The War in Iraq has created even more terrorists, and made a lasting peace in the middle east even more difficult.
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if this link works it is a nice essay on the Carter/Reagan economy - good to compare to current times
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm
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#88 Ed Iglehart
G 'n R (62),
""Joe the Plumber" will pay more
under Obama's plan to pay for tax cuts for the
middle class. Far from helping small business,
Obama is penalizing it."
He will pay 39% instead of 36% on the (after expenses) revenue above $250,000. A small fractional increase above a sensible threshold. I don't call that "penalising" a business.
Only problem I see with that is that while I understand it I suspect a lot of the public won't. I suppose it depends just how clever the Republicans are in representing it, but to me it's possibly one of their best ploys to date. 'Taxing small business men' always emotive especially in a land so dedicated to the doing your own thing ethic.
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138
The explosion of media with cable and AM talk radio means that the idea of a mainstream media conspiracy or bias is not just lame, it is offensive.
If you need any antidote to CNN then switch to Fox so 9 times out of 10 you can watch a right wing anchor or host browbeat a guest, changing the topic from the guest's book or expertise to a harangue by the Fox host.
Or listen to AM radio for more right of center opinion presented as news; the only openly left-leaning coverage is on MSNBC, and the most in depth coverage can often be found on PBS or NPR.
The sudden dismissal of "main stream media" as a cry to discount anything other than one's own opinion network is one of the more alarming trends in national thought with this election.
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This may seem very trivial, but I noticed it right away, that after the debate, McCain left his wife on the stage and did not even think to help her down let alone go first. To me thats huge. I think he's arrogant, and self serving.
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# 152 - Jack - Ambassadors
We had Arianna in the UK for quite a long time before she married the Texan Mr. Huffington. I'm not sure we've sufficiently recovered for her to re-appear. Maybe she would prefer Paris a la Pamela Harriman.
Colin Powell would be very welcome in London.
Best of all would be Warren Buffet - but I don't think that the Court of St. James would be quite his style.
Mind you .......... there is always a place here for George Clooney. Fills the bill. Obama supporter. In fact, the more I think about it .........
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Is Joe The Plumber Rich?
Well, he can afford to buy a company making £250,000 per year. It may be a small business, but it's in the top 5% if Obama's statistics are correct (95% of businesses earn less than £250,000 per year).
Well done on him for living the American dream and reaching a standard that the vast majority of his fellow countrymen can never reach. But is he really complaining that he can't afford to pay a little more (3 points more) to give a break to the 95% of the American families who are not so well off as he is?
He is not an average Joe, and McCain's constant references to what he will do for Joe should not be interpreted as an Obama assault on regular Americans, but as a McCain sweetener for the wealthy few.
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I am amazed at the contributors to this site who claim McCain did "pretty well." His feisty demeanor portrayed nothing more than an angry old man barely able to control his vitriol through clenched teeth and body language that betrayed his intolerance. Is this the kind of man the US wants to represent its interests on the world stage? I think not. All this, so called debate, did was to illustrate once more that McCain is unfit for the highest office in the land. Meanwhile Obama stood head and shoulders above his opponent, refusing to be drawn into a protracted discussion of personal attacks, despite the efforts of McCain.
It is disappointing that the best moderator available for the job was Schieffer. Surely there is someone else in the TV broadcast world who could be called upon who is not a member of the geriatric club!
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Post 155: moderate_observer wrote:
"Ive been to countries with flat tax rates, (a conservatives dream). same rates for rich and poor, and one thing they have in common is that there is a few very wealthy individuals, and no middle class.""
AND what countries are those then ? please enlighten us in to this ridiculous comment
Obama is a phoney, how does robbing the rich to pay the poor ever work in a democracy ?
MONEY does not trickle upwards, NOTHING trickles upwards
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This is a bit off-topic, but I have a vague recollection of the 2004 campaign, that although it was considered close, it was thought that John Kerry might just edge it. Obviously we know what happened, but I was just wondering if anyone can remember what the polls were like in the weeks prior to the election (or even better, has a link to any info) - I'm pretty sure he didn't have as big a lead as Obama, but I seem to remember that he was slightly ahead. But I may be wrong.
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#158. gloriousToffeeapple: "One thing I find irritating about Justin Webb's blogg is that, despite hiding behind a veneer of objectivity, it is so clearly written by a Republican supporter."
You wouldn't have said that some months ago when the opposite was being said. However, he does appear to have gone overboard to maintain whatever balance there once was. Concise as it is, I don't think that stringing a few links together says much for either his opinions as a commentator or his reporting as a journalist.
With regard to Colin Powell, as of 10:30 a.m. West Coast, and thus half-past one o'clock back East, there's no sign of an endorsement. At this stage, it matters not who is endorsing Mr Obama, but should Powell ever endorse Mr McCain, that might just have some news value! I don't consider that Obama needs to shore up his readiness to be Commander-in-Chief any more than, say Bill Clinton did, or come to that, George W; what military experience did he have? New presidents can bring the strongest and most knowledgeable people into their sphere, economically, militarily and every other way. None of them micro-manage .
The last line of The Boston Globe's analysis, "McCain's performance wasn't friendly or gracious; but it may have been effective" is only correct in its first phrase. No way can it be considered to be effective and even the writer make that implication with the caveat "may have been".
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#62
Guns,
This is a confusing point, and the media are not helping. If Joe the Plumber (who is related to Bob The Builder, his cousin) is set up as an S type corporation, LLP or LLC (which he would be unless he is actually floating his plumbing business on the market) then he and his business pay income tax much as the rest of us do i.e. on our income. That is not the $280,000 earnings of his business, it would be on the money he takes home after all his business expenses (materials, gas, wages, phone, rent, sales and use tax etc) and any money reinvested in things like tools, a pickup and so on. If he bases the business at home there are some tax breaks there as well.
To make that kind of coin, you would need to be earning (i.e. taking in) about 3-4 times as much, or $750,000 - $1,000,000. Working about 2,000 chargable hours in a year, he'd have to charge $500 an hour or have a lot of folks working for him (reducing his margin and increasing the top line earnings).
It is possible, I know a couple of builders (one called Bob, the other not) who make that kind of money but mostly because they have built up a portfolio of houses and rental properties that they have renovated and rented out.
But with a company with income of $280,000 Joe is a way away from having any kind of penalty. In fact he'll be better off under OB's plan quite significantly, especially if he goes and hires someone.
Tax Accountant Sam
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163. , DougTexan wrote:
I have to ask, is not Obama the messiah?
He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy!
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#151 secondflyonthewall
Glad to hear you enjoy the discourse on this blog. I would like to point out that each candidate has a proposed policy on the issues you identify. It's not a question of -
"if I want my tax money to go to defense and not education or health care or alternative fuel technology, then I should pick McCain. If I value those other things, I need to pick Obama."
I suggest that what you and all of us need to weigh is the probability of the policies proposed by each candidate of succeeding. For my money Obama wins hands down on all issues, including the situation in Iraq. McCain's proposals are wooly and he has not been able to clearly explain them, at least to me, and post debate polls last night appear to indicate I am not alone.
Your last point -
"whether McCain breathed laboriously or Obama smirked arrogantly is meaningless in the face of picking the path that is most in line with the values and assumptions of the majority of Americans."
I did not see Obama smirk arrogantly; I did see facial expressions that conveyed amused tolerance. McCain's body language is a turn off. He projects anger and intolerance through clenched teeth, facial expressions and a general tense demeanor. As I have said elsewhere on this blog this is not the kind of man I want negotiating on my behalf with other world leaders. Bottom line is these factors are important.
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Frayed Cat, Thanks for that link. I retain a great respect for Carter - probably the nearest thing to an honest man to get within a mile of the White House Since Uncle George, and certainly the best ex-president of the past century.
Peace Pipes to all
ed
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Frayed Cat, Thanks for that link. I retain a great respect for Carter - probably the nearest thing to an honest man to get within a mile of the White House Since Uncle George
Peace Pipes to all
ed
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This has been an absolute low for politics in the United States as far as I'm concerned. Many of us know the liabilties of John McCain, but many don't seem to see through the immensely partisan and everchanging Barack Obama. This is one election where I will not be voting for either party, and this last debate cemented that conviction. Obama, in the debate before, continually rolled his eyes; he even interrupted the moderator several times, and the final time the man gave in, in order to state some point we've most likely heard before. That type of disrespect and churlish behavior is unwarranted and hardly *presidential,* yet Obama gets a pass, as he usually has. Barack Obama has rarely (and I'm being generous here) been held acountable for his negativity or for his position changes done for political expediency. First, the primary against Hillary Clinton was a smashfest of sexism, and Obama, contrary to countering all of the negative ads and spin, reveled in it while maintaining his distance. Sen. Clinton was pitted not against just Barack Obama, but also againt the mainstream media AND the Democratic party's ruling elite. That she came within a hair of trouncing him, and she did trounce him on Super Tuesday, is remarkable. She was asked to *step down for party unity* after Iowa; however, after she won a resounding victory on Super Tuesday, did anyone ask Obama to *step down for party unity?* No. Obama's campaign pulled the race card on Pres. Bill Clinton, and on Geraldine Ferraro. His campaign repeatedly went negative, and he outspent her with the aid of MoveOn.org, a group I left over their terrible behavior, only to eak out a win, and only because of the corruption inherent in the antiquated caucases. Then come more of Barack's lies. He's first against FISA, and then he's for it. He states he will accept public financing, and then he reverses himself. He is involved with ACORN, and they have admitted to registering 1.2 mn voters during the primaries, and for Barack Obama, so I wonder if Sen. Clinton wasn't manipulated out of a win, though few if any in the MSM seem to address this. Barack Obama touts his knowledge yet he states *we need more Arabic speaking people in Afghanistan* when the country speaks Dari and Bashtu. He throws his white grandmother under the bus when he discusses Jeremiah Wright, and then to distance himself from Wright, I felt thre was a carefully orchestrated event where Wright *went crazy* in public, thereby allowing Barack the ability to distance himself completely. Not one word has been heard from Wright. Coincidence or another manipulation? I feel the latter. Barack Obama is the darling of the media and the Democratic party, yet he has offered very little in the way of true change. His oratory soars while the substance in his speeches is as thin as the ozone in Antarctica. He was against drilling, and now he's for it. He voted against capping credit card interest rates, and now he lambasts these companies for gouging. He accused Sen. Clinton of serving on the board at Wal-mart while his wife served on the board of Treehouse Foods, a supplier to Wal-Mart. During the debate last night, while it was hardly enjoyable to listen to McCain, it was equally challenging to watch Barack Obama smile and snicker, much as he has the last two debates. When asked about when life begins, he retorts *That's above my pay grade.* He should have known the question would be asked, yet that's his response? He funnels moneys to ACORN and he does very little to nothing for the Latino community, whose votes he now desperately needs and to whom he's now courting. He is against gay marriage, and he refused a photo with San Francisco Mayor Newsome because *That man supports gay marriage.* In addition, he has an infamous ex-gay ministry singer (who believes all gays are diseased and need to be cured) at his rally, and then he says *I didn't know.* It seems he's received a nice little ride from the media, and the Democratic top brass and old boy network sank Sen. Clinton, or did they really? So no. I don't believe Obama is a bringer of change. Barack Obama is a bringer of his own ego into the White House, and this constant drumbeat of *nowhere in the world could my story have happened* is once again the ugliness of US-centric thinking that isolates us from the rest of the world. In fact, when Barack Obama admits he can't speak French, I do wonder for all his professed love of Europe why he didn't take some classes in his pedigreed academic career in at least two other languages. The general's endorsement for me is a nail, in the coffiin of anyone he endorses. I despise that man, and all that he did. He was not used. He was a part of that corruption. People aren't used without their permission, so endorse away general. As for me, I see little hope for the people of the USA if either of these candidates is elected. It's downright depressing. Obama sounds good but is all frosting. After a while you develop a bad belly ache. McCain is simply struggling to get any coherent ideas across. We in the USA have had to lower the bar far too many times, and I'm through doing that. My one hope was that Sen. Clinton would take her 18 mn votes and run as an Independent thus giving the USA a third party with some numbers, but that hasn't happened. In any case, say a kind word for the USA. I know we'll need it. I, for one, am not looking forward to November 4 regardless of the *winner,* for his win will be our loss.
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#165 timohio in general , regarding ohio, I cannot figure why they are a swing state. as a state so dependent on manufacturing and blue collar jobs, they should be very angry at the republican party at the moment.
Most telling last night was John McCains response to free trade agreements. His answer to the loss of blue collar jobs was to encourage laid off workers to go back to school and get retrained for something else.
Now I am all for education and preparing for volatile job markets, but... this is not easy for someone who lost their job, and i think its much harder for someone who has worked in the same industry for 25 years and looking to retire in 10.
My greivance is that our politicians , particularly repubs, push free trade but not fair trade like obama suggests.
When you negotiate a labour agreement with a country that has no labour protection laws , it puts the US at a trade disadvantage. Hence one of the reasons the country is in a deficit at the moment.
more buying less selling.
I am sure foreign governments who negotiate these deals with the US government must be saying amongst themselves how short sighted and perhaps naive our leaders are for agreeing to these ridiculous terms.
but i do not think its naivety that has led to these ridiculous arrangements, It is lack of interest in protecting the jobs of the middle class. The income of corporations are more important, even if they do not employ americans.
States like Ohio, and Michigan are the biggest victims.
When anyone criticises this policy position they are called 'protectionist' (as if thats a bad thing) and are accused of not believing in freedom.
This will be recorded as one of the greatest transfers of wealth in history.
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#163 DougTexan
Please explain why you have not made up your mind yet. Surely by now you understand the issues and each candidate's proposals on how to deal with them. What do you expect to happen in the next 19 days that's going to galvanize your thought process? The choices available to voters in this election have never been more stark. Are you just concerned with backing the winning horse and propose to wait 'till you walk into the voting booth expecting some kind of epiphany? The country needs NEW leadership. You need to fight for it. For the good of yourself and all of us, get off the fence and work for a better future.
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re. 170. middlecroony:
"This may seem very trivial, but I noticed it right away, that after the debate, McCain left his wife on the stage and did not even think to help her down let alone go first."
Apparently after the second (town hall) debate Obama and his wife stayed in the room and chatted with the people in the audience after the cameras were turned off. McCain left immediately. Apparently even the McCain supporters in the audience were taken aback at that.
Maybe in both cases he felt the need to go and punch a wall or something. I'm sure his frustration level must be pretty high by now, and he has a reputation for a bad temper.
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#174 bluepaddy , i suppose u apply the rules of physics to rules that govern finances. Money isnt water.
economy is demand and supply, thats the first thing you learn in economics.
so trickle down (supply side) economics is flawed. If the middle class is struggling they wont demand much, and that restricts opportunity for businesses to grow.
Bush's tax cuts , they trickled down but not to the united states. If you look at the rate at which american investment grew in China, the UAE and India then you will see where american tax cuts went for the past 8 years.
Investors arnt stupid, they invest where they get the greatest return, so on receiving their additional cuts, they sent the money outside of the US because american growth had peaked. If you look at the best performing companies on the stock market for the past 5 years , you will notice that most of their earning did not come from the united states, but from the middle east and south east asia.
While that was happening american consumers had to be borrowing to maintain their way of life, even while the economy was bleeding jobs.
over the next couple of years , look who will be buying american corporations. and while you are at it look at how much money the government owes china.
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#177 SamTyler1969
Well done! Entertaining and accurate. I hope your succinct analysis gets lots of exposure.
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Justin,
The answer is a resounding no. In fact, he was everything that a politician shouldn't be in a debate of this importance. Sen. McCain came across as petulant and belligerent throughout the entire debate throwing cheapshot after cheapshot, to no avail.
He appeared to be more preoccupied with with subtly attacking Obama than giving credible answers to the questions that were posed to him.
This was the opportunity for McCain to try and reduce Obama's lead in the polls. He failed dismally.
On this showing, I would say that John McCain has neither the decorum or the demeanour to become the president of the United States. Conversely, Obama most definitely does. All that is needed now to put paid to McCain's campaign is a glowing endorsement from Colin Powell.
I think it's imminent.
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re. 174. bluepaddy13:
"MONEY does not trickle upwards, NOTHING trickles upwards"
Well, money sure hasn't been trickling downwards for the last eight years.
The whole trickle-down theory is based on the premise that if you make the upper end of the economic ladder wealthy enough, they will invest in businesses and create jobs. What has happened instead is that they have splurged on luxuries, invested in risky schemes to make even more money, and moved their money and the jobs offshore.
The idea behind a graduated tax is that the wealthy can afford to pay more taxes so the government can invest in infrastructure: roads, public transportation, upgrading our archaic air traffic control system, schools, health care. Over the long haul, that investment in infrastructure benefits everyone, rich and poor alike. A better infrastructure creates a better environment for business, and that benefits the wealthy. Better schools mean a better-educated work force that can sustain an economy, and that benefits the wealthy too. It's not a question of trickle-up, it's a matter of investment.
Businesses and individuals can plan in whatever terms they like, but the job of government is to plan for the long term. That means decades, not quarters.
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#177, Sam and others:
What I am trying to determine is not so much
how Obama's plan affects Joe the Plumber,
but how it affects my ability to create jobs here.
I cannot go into detail on what kind of work
I do, but the issue is that I am about to start
a company, probably as a spin-off of another,
existing company.
I'm having a little difficulty deciphering the
Obama-Biden plan because the published document
is too vague. There is talk about making the
R&D credit permanent, but, apparently Obama
voted against simplifying its calculation, so
I don't know if we could use it or what good
it would do.
The new company would probably be a subchapter-S,
which allows dividends to be paid to owners
without taxation. Would Obama's plan provide
that mechanism at the federal level as well?
And, how would retained earnings be taxed?
At the normal corporate rate? That's going
to hold us back from creating jobs.
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re. 177. SamTyler1969:
My God, you actually know what you're talking about! What are you doing on this blog?
There was something a bit unreal about a plumber taking home a quarter million a year. I'm glad you explained it.
If Bob the Plumber actually thought he would be taking home that much, it's probably better that he doesn't buy the business.
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174. how does robbing the rich to pay the poor ever work in a democracy ?
Ever heard of progressive tax system?
It's quite obvious that 21p in the pound is more if you earn say £15,000 than £100,000
Progressive tax system is essential in a liberal free market democracy. If you take more from the poor, than the rich, the poor (I really hate that term - should call it the majority), then they will have less to invest or spend, and use credit, the mess we are in now.
On the other hand - why should the rich pay more? Well whose going to pay for schools, hospital's & all those wars!
Though I don't know any countries that have a flat tax system can some one please tell me) - in the long run it's economically unsubstantial, creating more debt as governments have to burrow more.
Coincidently it's quite ironic that all these fanciers and economist who worship the free market, (which is not free, it's biased), are now clambering back onto the Keynesian band wagon!
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#108. pbacot: "After winning Europe's war Eisenhower also made it to the presidency."
Ignoring the first, and contentious, phrase, it is my understanding that the General was courted by both political parties to be their presidential candidate. Without meaning to slight his memory, in retrospect he appears to have accepted the offer which promised better remuneration. From a general's salary to becoming extremely wealthy after his tenure was much like Reagan's "kitchen cabinet" paying for his (and Nancy's) house in Bel-Air (originally numbered '666' but altered to 668.)
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re. 183. moderate_observer:
Ohio is quite literally split down the middle politically. The northern third (where I am) is the formerly industrial part, is more heavily unionized, and usually votes Democratic. The southern part is much more rural and small town and more conservative. But because it covers a larger area and includes Cincinnati and Columbus, I think the population may just balance the northern tier. The southern part tends to be more motivated by social issues. One thing that is never mentioned about the 2004 election in Ohio is that the Republicans managed to get an amendment to the state constitution forbidding gay marriage on the ballot. That galvanized turnout from the religious right in the southern part of the state and pushed Ohio into the Republican column.
I think the economy will override the social issues this time. And in spite of Palin's best efforts, there is really nothing to energize most of the religious conservatives in the state the way there was in 2004. They need jobs too.
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SurfRider_2008 (#182), so can we count you as a member of "PUMA"?
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#114
Marcus,
What more can McCain do?
There are a number of things he could try that may influence independent voters. These would include:
- Being civil
- Not being angry
- Focusing on the issues facing the country
- Not 'stopping his campaign' or ' stopping his plane' every time something happens or someone calls him names
- Economic plans that do not pour benefits on the old and wealthy
- Making his mind up and sticking to it
- Controlling his VP nominee
- Categorically denouncing the folks who yell 'Kill him' and 'Terrorist' rather than trying to claim as bad things are said about him at Democratic rallies (unless 'confused' and 'old' are the same in his mind. In which case he has other issues)
- Stopping looking confused
- Stopping saying 'My Friends', 'Senator Government' and 'My Fellow Prisoners'
- Wearing better ties. Tied properly
As for hanging on to money. As Obama said last night when McCain stated 'No one should pay more taxes', 'I don't mind paying more'.
Me either.
Consultant Sam
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#171
80,
Art thou having unclean thoughts about George Clooney?
Fssssssssst.
Finbarr Samders
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189. At 7:16pm on 16 Oct 2008, moderate_observer wrote:
#174 bluepaddy , i suppose u apply the rules of physics to rules that govern finances. Money isnt water.
I am fully aware money is not water, YOU might want to point that out to OBAMA
Tell me when has wealth (MONEY) ever trickled UPWARDS I would like to see this miracle.
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And, Sam, since I know you have a business
background, and because my partners are
so busy that I only get a half-hour on the phone
with them every 2 weeks or so, I would appreciate
it if you could look at this link, which describes a bill
signed into law by Bush.
How does the Obama-Biden plan compare
with this?
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In case no-one reads the reference to Joe the Plumber on the next thread, he is unmasked here.
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#182. SurfRider_2008: " (Obama) is against gay marriage, and he refused a photo with San Francisco Mayor Newsome because *That man supports gay marriage.*"
But he does support civil unions, which are not dissimilar to "marriage", the latter a contract which has a religious connotation. I couldn't find a reference to a photo-opportunity with Mayor Newsome let alone the quotation you use.
Incidentally, since I have earlier been criticised for not providing sufficient paragraph breaks, you might take heed of that - your post was very difficult to read and probably ignored by most posters.
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"I have to say that there is a big point here: small
companies like "Joe the Plumber" will pay more
under Obama's plan to pay for tax cuts for the
middle class. Far from helping small business,
Obama is penalizing it."
Guns, speaking as a possibly ignorant Brit, I thought someone like Joe WAS middle class as defined in America.
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OH bluepaddy13 my angry partisan friend take the time to explain when wealth as ever trickled down. raegan raised taxes six times , because his cuts were causing a deficit. and the 80s wernt as great as it was made out to be lets not forget the savings and loan scandal and also that the country was in deficit after Bush 41. (sounds familiar).
the 90s were better many small businesses prosper because more focus was made on making the middle class prosper, now onwards to the last 8 years, and what we
have today. This caused the emergence of many tech companies like Dell, Microsoft,AOL, etc. and many other startups created by guess who the middle class.
of course there is much more to it than that.
my point is not that the wealthy should be taxed, to favour the poor, and im no great fan of obama either, my point is that you cannot focus wealth on the upper class in a globalised market and expect that they are going to be so noble as to spend those tax cuts in the country they received thosetax cuts.
the tax cuts received from George W was sent overseas....to other emerging economies, with growing middle class not the USA because our middle class here had less buying power.
demand and supply simple logics , you cant sell to people who have no money.
at the end of the day, Bush will be doing alrite, and his friends too, they own the companies that ripped the heart out of the countries workforce.
how have their prosperity trickled down to you lately ?
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#182 SurfRider_2008
MA11 it must be you.
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#206, Belmons, if I read Joe's description properly,
he is "buying a business." He may be middle
class, in which case he is probably borrowing the
money to buy the business. Without looking
at his tax returns, it's hard to say.
The issue which I am trying to determine is what
the net effect of Obama's tax policies will be on
job creation. It's small businesses that create
most of the jobs in this country.
If the Republican pundits are right, that Obama's
plan will increase taxation on 2/3 of all small
business revenue in the US, then that will adversely
affect job creation, and send more jobs overseas.
The SBA and most other government organizations
define a "small business" as one with 500 or
fewer employees. That might seem like a large
company, but by modern global standards, it
is very small. And yet, these small to medium
sized companies create far more jobs and do
far more R&D per employee than their large,
multi-national counterparts. More importantly
from my point of view, they tend to be much
better corporate citizens, being far more deeply
rooted in their communities than their larger
counterparts.
As a small businessman myself, I am still digging
into the matter.
And, if you happen to run into Sam, would you
please direct him to this post? He's probably
off drooling somewhere.
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@bluepaddy13 about the flat tax countries: AND what countries are those then ? please enlighten us in to this ridiculous comment
Well, Russia for one. Also Albania, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Iceland, Iraq, Slovakia, Estonia, and Lithuania among others. Do you think there is a strong middle class in Russia? Rather, do you think it's fair to say there is a large discrepancy between the wealthy and the average in Russia?
Also, it's true that nothing trickles upwards, but when you want to build a strong house, you start with the foundation. Even McCain admits that the "fundamentals" of our economy are the middle class workers.
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so guns nreligion, I just saw on cnn fact check that obama's plan will affect about 500 000 businesses, thats roughly just under 2% of businesses registered in the country.
the repub criticism is that his taxes would include people who do book deals, etc. but the fact check folks said it isnt true.
currently the way obama's plan work is any income higher than the 250 000 threshold will be taxed at the higher rateso if you made 260 000 only 10 000 will be taxed at the higher rate.
they have not posted it on their website yet but I suppose they will soon.
Also this Joe the plumber guy would actually get a tax ct from Obama, seeing that he would have to make 250 k or more profit to fall in this bracket.
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Post #202; bluepaddy13 wrote:
"I am fully aware money is not water, YOU might want to point that out to OBAMA
Tell me when has wealth (MONEY) ever trickled UPWARDS I would like to see this miracle."
You've seen it repeatedly. It happens every time the Republicans legislate another tax break for businesses, corporations and the top 20% private income earners.
In any case, Obama doesn't need to make money "trickle upwards". He needs to make it "trickle DOWNWARDS", which is precisely what the Republicans have been trying to stop it from doing.
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thanks timohio, you're a standup guy!
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Post #209. At 9:49pm on 16 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:" If the Republican pundits are right, that Obama's plan will increase taxation on 2/3 of all small business revenue in the US, then that will adversely affect job creation, and send more jobs overseas."
Here's a challenge: stop and think about this claim and see if it stands up to logical scrutiny.
In order for this to be true, 2/3 of all American small businesses would have to be earning ABOVE $250,000. Do you believe this is true? Because that's what you need to believe in order to accept the Republican claim.
If you do believe it is true, *why* do you believe it is true? What is the basis for your belief? Where is the evidence to substantiate it?
I challenge anyone to produce the data which supports this Republican claim. Show us the facts behind the rhetoric.
It does not sound credible to me. More than likely it's another classic scare tactic, like the old "estate (inheritance) tax will ruin American farmers" lie. Remember that one?
The Republicans squealed that farmers all over the nation would be ruined by the dreaded inheritance tax. Years later, people were still trying to find one example - just ONE example - of *anyone* being financially destroyed by this tax.
They couldn't do it. Why? Because the estate tax had only been levied on individuals with assets of $1.5 million or more ($3 million for married couples), and therefore only affected 1% of the population. 1%! No farmers in that tax bracket, I'm afraid.
So please, let's take the Republican pundits with a hefty grain of salt. Credibility is not high on their shortlist of virtues.
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56, Dominick.
"I doubt he (Powell) will accept a Cabinet post in an Obama Administration or anyone else's, but if he did he would make an outstanding Secretary of Defense or Secretary of State."
It has been suggesed that Powell was naive. How does that qualify one for high office? As for his making an outstanding Secretary of State, he has been there, done that, and not too well.
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If Colin Powell does come out for Obama I am all for a debate between him and Joe the Plumber.
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Now,
as I said after the 2nd debate, when Obama stayed behind and signed loads of autographs and had his picture taken with just about everyone in the room, and McCain scuttled off - "they know who their next President is going to be".
And I saw nothing that chaged that last night.
If I can introduce a plumbing metaphor, and a real one (see below!), I think that McCain is a sacrificial anode. The neocons are using him to flush out (another one!) wishy washy liberals from republican ranks. So the rabid right can tighten their evil grip. And they hope the mess they've left will be impossible to clear up by 2012, America will be further down the drain (!),when a new shining light (ideas anyone - thought Tim Pawlenty (?) did the bus last night) will take on Obama.
Peace and love
No autographs please
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101, OldSouth.
You are going to be voice in the wilderness. Obama is moving in on Dixie. Virginia is gone, North Carolina is going, and Georgia is beginning to falter. Where will you take refuge?
The NewSouth may be replacing the OldSouth.
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Now,
ref Joe the plumber. I'm not one to gossip ...... but what I've read recently suggests the shaven headed one:
Is really Sam the plumber (is that you Sam?)
Might be registered to vote but couldn't spell his name correctly (could he be related to Palin?), so with the new stringent checks the rabids are asking for in Ohio he won't be able to vote
He earned about $40,000 a couple of years ago working for a local firm
He is not licenced as a plumber and should not be working as one!
There is no firm he's looking to buy
He did military service in Alaska (spooky!)
He has a court case against him for unpaid taxes (now that's commitment to the rabids cause!)
And he might be related or connected to a major neocon contributoir and one Charles Keating?
and I'll stop now as my tears are welling up in the keyboard.
Peace and love
No autographs I said!
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182, Surfrider.
Try making paragraphs. One huge paragraph is hard to read - so I didn't.
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200, Sam.
To add to your list of "what more can McCain do," I add this: Stop being a jerk.
McCain has put his candidacy on the line by relying on stupid gimicks.
(1) Trying to get Hillary's following by choosing an ignoramus with tits. I was never a fan of Clinton's, but I could never call her stupid or inexperienced.
(2) Suspending his campaign to go to Washington to save the economy.
(3) Not showing up for the Letterman show resulting in weeks of jokes and laughter (death to a politician).
(4) Joe the Plumber, aka Joe Six-Pack with a wrench.
Jeesh. What a jerk!
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came across this, but sadly do not know how to link it.
Will try my best, sure someone will be able to reconstruct.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-naif/todd-palins-alaska-indepe_b_134793.html
Mods if the above cannot get through will -
huffingtonpost 134793 as a search?
peace and love
No autographs!
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#221
Hi Marby,
I feel sorry for Joe. He walked out on the street to ask a politician a question. Now because a candidate chose to take his question and elevate it in a debate he has been placed under the harsh glare of the media.
So now we know he isn't licensed as a contractor or a plumber, that he is registered (by mistake) to vote under the wrong name (technically that makes him guilty of voter fraud as he voted in the primaries) and he is a registered Republican. Now John McCain has an ad out featuring him.
During the last election a local farm placed a huge Bush Cheney sign by the road. I called in their a couple of weeks after Bush was reelected and the owner looked pretty down. Sales at his farm stand, his most profitable, were down a lot. I said 'Jeez Jack, did ya think the sign may have had anything to do with it? I mean, now a lot of folks know your politics'. There is no sign up this year. And I'm pretty sure a Kerry sign would have the same effect.
Even my local gun store has an Obama and a McCain sticker up and the owner and his son are very clear theirs is a house divided. Smart really.
I fear poor Joe may now be out of business because he was made a football. That would be a crying shame, he's done nothing wrong.
Sad Sam
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Ed
I almost have sympathy for the guy now. Surely even McCain wouldn't have used him, given out his name on TV to 70 (?) million people.....would he?
And, of course, knowing how well he vets everyone, he did look into his background, right?
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Middlecrony and Tim,
As to McCain's swift departure, has anyone considered the obvious? Incontinence. (from one familiar with "sudden urgency")
;-)
ed
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SamTyler1969 (#223), having a misspelling in your name on the voter registration rolls is not fraud, technical or otherwise. Frad requires intent to deceive. If he is an eligible voter, and if he only votes once on matters he is eligible to vote on, there is no fraud.
One should be careful when accusing others of crimes.
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#226
Hi Gary,
When you get your card with a bad name and use it anyway. It is voter fraud. Like I say, no one would convict but 'technically'.
Joe is going to get an awful rough ride. i fear for him.
Sad Sam
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#225
Ed,
Missed you.
Happy Sam
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The BBC gives a good account of Joe the Plumber here: http://tinyurl.com/5ld5mj
A few exerpts:
"Mr Wurzelbacher said the company earned $250,000-$280,000 (£144,800-£162,250) a year, and he challenged Mr Obama: "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"
Mr Obama said that under his proposals, taxes on any revenue below $250,000 would remain the same, but that earnings above that level would be subject to a 39% tax, instead of the current 36% rate.
Mr Obama said that 95% of small businesses earned less than $250,000 and that he wanted to give those small businesses a tax cut.
Mr Wurzelbacher told Mr Obama that would mean he would be taxed more "for fulfilling the American dream".
[...]
On the day after Mr Wurzelbacher's name came up in the debate, the US media dug into his background and discovered that he is a *registered Republican*, and that in 2007 the state of Ohio was forced to claim $1,182.98 in unpaid taxes from him.
A search of the register of plumbers in Ohio also revealed that Mr Wurzelbacher does not have a state plumber's licence."
If this guy intends to buy a $250-280k company (funny that he's managed to find one that matches Obama's tax threshold perfectly), where's he getting the money? And even if he did, how can he accuse Obama of being "socialist" simply because he'd be paying an extra $2.47 per day in taxes? That kind of money is less than pocket change for most people, and certainly for a guy with a quarter-million business operation.
Joe Wurzelbacher is looking more and more like a stooge. His numbers don't add up, his claims are bogus, and he doesn't even know what a socialist really is.
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I have to say that I slightly misread the Joe the Plumber thing. In the UK, if you said that a business "earned" £250k, that would be your profit. Unlike in business, there there a great many ways of defining this, Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs have a very precise definition of this....
If JtB has a business which merely has a TURNOVER of $250k, then assuming a reasonable profit margin (30% is about the norm in the UK for a labour-heavy plumbing business), he's got nothing to worry about.
Separated by a common tongue.....
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#230,
You are correct, I should have said takings.
Even at $280k earnings, he would still likely be under $250 personal income after interest, finance costs and depreciation
Humble Sam
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As an Englishman in the US, I have to say that this is the worst campaign I have ever seen. It's been utterly despicable - every minute of it. The fact that Obama is forced to discuss Ayers while McCain is not questioned about Liddy, Gramm, Iran Contra, Noriega, and the Keating Five is absolutely insulting to the public. And not a word about Todd Palin and his Alaskan secessionists - despite the fact they were formed by Voegler, who was supported by the state of Iran. Then we have to listen to McCain prattle on about ACORN and how he's offended - after two stolen elections and years of disgusting voter suppression tactics from the right. If only the press would do their jobs. I had high hopes for the BBC - but they are becoming like all the rest.
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Justin:
I honestly think after a month (plus) following the Elections in the United States, he didn't make his case that hard to be the president of the United States of America....
[P.S.: John McCain..]
--Dennis Junior--
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