Getting angry
The anger of the Republican troops is focused on Obama right now but you have to wonder, if things don't improve for them soon, if it begins to focus on McCain for letting Obama in.
In Strongsville, Ohio this week I talked to some pretty angry people - almost all of them polite to the BBC because Americans tend to be polite towards guests - but really tough on Obama and on the media generally for taking his side. He's a baby killer, one woman said (referring to Obama's acceptance of abortion rights, of course) and she was by no means the most extreme. My colleagues on the BBC's US TV news programme (World News America) decided not to use the clip on grounds of taste, and because it seemed to suggest that opponents of Obama always had such extreme views. They may well have been right on both counts but this is what is being said at heartland rallies every day. You cannot wish it away or ignore it. Perhaps you can exaggerate it but the fact remains that some Republicans despise Obama in a way few Democrats despise McCain.
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here's a prediction:
over the weekend, it will become obvious that paulson will use the 700bn tarp to recapitalise banks instead of buying dodgy assets.
mccain will use this as an opportunity to get on the populist bandwagon. he will say that congress was duped into passing a tarp plan that was not intended for this purpose, and allows recapitalisation just because of a sneaky loophole. he will say it is just bailing out greedy bankers (although the same can be said for his own plan to buy worthless assets at full face value). and he will say it is a plan hatched by democrats to nationalise banks (read socialism).
desperate poll ratings call for desperate populist political stands. let's hope it is not successful.
btw, i think the hatred will be much worse if mccain did manage to win the election. democrats would (probably correctly) claim that republican gerrymandering had swung the vote. there would be blood on the streets.
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Justin,
I must be psychic! I posted on your "How McCain wins" thread about 90 minutes ago and (mis)quoted these people.
Despise? Why? Was Clinton or Carter or Kerry or whoever "despised"? Probably not.
To generate feelings that extreme (if they are real) requires something special - an all enveloping sense of losing something they've had for so long? And race is mixed up in that.
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I've seen some of the clips on TV and it honestly reminded me of the scene in 1984 where there is a two-minute hate aimed at Emmanuel Goldstein - I'm sure there's a clip of the film version somewhere.
What really saddens me is that McCain must deep inside hate the people at these rallies (I use that word advisedly).
But McCain has sold his soul in order to win the election. The only question now is how low can he go. It's a tragedy.
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at the current pace, with 3 weeks remaining im beginning to worry that one of these McCain/palin rallies are going t break out into a riot. I dare someone to walk in that rally with an Obama/Biden t shirt
Ive never heard of such anger on a campaign trail before. this is looking like something from the 60s.
Obama is really just another democrat... so why the anger?
not much different from the party norm.
something about Obama really irritates and angers them I wonder what it is?
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McCain has a serious problem on his hands, and his behaviour is only making matters worse. It has been obvious from the first two debates that McCain cannot bring himself to look at Obama for any sustained period of time. He has, as the euphemism goes, serious 'issues' with his opponent and his inability to treat Obama with mutual respect only serves to pour petrol on the flames of popular anger and prejudice. It is a situation that his toxic running mate only makes worse through her appeal to the atavistic and intolerant.
I've been thinking in the past few days, following an email exchange with a friend, about Jung's analysis of why Hitler was popular: Jung observed that Hitler's power derived from his negative personality ie. that he was a kind of a black hole that sucked every negative aspiration of humanity in. I think Palin has that same quality: she appeals to everything that is negative, and McCain is allowing himself to be driven by the vortex of her moral and intellectual emptiness. It is very sad and he has allowed his reputation to be ruined in the process.
McCain needs to say that inflamatory language is unacceptable and relocate his moral bearings. As Andrew Sullivan observed earlier today, what is now being fanned is the kind of conduct that made possible the assassination of Rabin: McCain should be ashamed he has sunk so desperately and low.
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#2 this level of anger is usually triggerred when an unprecedented change has occured. or is likely to occur.
this election has awakened a sleeping giant of tension.
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Well if that is a true assessment. Then for the first time I would have to say that race is a very big part of this vitriol you speak about, and it is playing a larger role that initially thought.
Obviously this assessment is based on your blog, and may be wrong, well I hope so......
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I'm a registered Republican woman from Indiana of a "certain age" and while I may not despise McCain with the vigor you are describing, I certainly do not respect him anymore. And I do despise Sarah Palin, I am no fan of Hillary's but thought her use of Hillary and the Republicans' outrage that anyone who questions Palin is a sexist is very offensive. I hold the Republicans responsible for ruining our economy and respect for our government (both inside the US and abroad). Both sides are hypocrites, but right now the Republicans far outweigh the Dems on my scale. Palin wants no taxes, yet complains that Dems don't want body armor for her son. She should check her fellow repubs votes on health care, education benes and equipment for the troops. How does she think that stuff gets paid for, by the war fairy?
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Justin said: "But the fact remains that some Republicans despise Obama in a way few Democrats despise McCain."
It is not surprising that this is the case. The lies being spouted about Obama are extreme. If you are predisposed to believe the source of those lies then you are likely to feel strong emotions towards Obama (regardless of racial prejudice and other contributing factors).
Obama's ability to remain calm and focused in the midst of this storm is truly amazing, and worthy of respect in itself. And no, that is not Obamamania. It is a recognition of exceptional character and of the sort of person that I for one would want to see at the head of a once great country.
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4. moderate_observer wrote: "this is looking like something from the 60s."
It sounds to me (and I am sure many others) rather more reminiscent of the 30's. And I don't mean post-Wall Street Crash America either.
We have read it all here. Well, a lot of it. I can only shudder at the thought of what may have been written in some of those posts labelled "referred to the moderators" by some of the most vehement writers.
Speech may be free, but some opinions come with a terrible price attached.
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John McCain when he heard a person in the crowd call Obama a terrorist seemed to flinch. But he did not refute the accusation. This was disapointing because McCain knows what it means to have this level of vitriol aimed at him( primary campaign in 2000). I have always thought of John McCain as a decent man, I may disagree with his policies but I never questioned his basic decency. I am beggining to wonder if my faith was misplaced. The old adage about gaining the world only to lose his soul increasingly comes to mind.
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It's my first time posting here, although I'm a regular reader. This entry really struck home with a video I just watched on Youtube. A cameraman went to a rally where Palin was speaking and he asked her supporters if they though that Obama was a terrorist. The responses were sickening. It ranged from those who were reluctant to agree and only said maybe, to those who agreed that he was. One person even said Obama was a one-man terror cell. Some of them used his name as the reason why they thought this.
The worst part was a woman who said that Obama may be a terrorist because "It is in his bloodline."
I used to have great respect for McCain before this campaign, but if he doesn't come out and denounce these people then history is going to judge him as one of them. And if he doesn't have the honour to stick to his guns and denounce these people, even though it may lose him the election, then he deserves to be judged along with them.
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I assume that McCain-Palin will be holding a campaign rally at this battleground location sometime soon:
http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/Nuremberg,_Pennsylvania
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The hatred is there because the biggots think Obama will actually get elected
"Betcha" it wont happen.
Obama will not win. America will at the last moment shy away from "ticking" his name at the ballot box.
If it was anyone else standing against McCain, they probably would be much further ahead in the polls and McCain would have given up more than just one state by now.
The economy has blown up on a Republican President. The Republican Nominee offers the same basic policies as the failed President.
Why would the country want to elect another Bush ???
The only reason this race is still so close is because colour still plays a big part in America.
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They only despise Obama because they are ignorant. They despise him for his associations and views.
I, for example, despise David Cameron simply becuase he is David Cameron. This is not ignorance as it is a moral obligation for any British person to despise David Cameron. However, the level of despise I feel for David Cameron would not be affected if I suddenly discovered he served on the board of Fish Paste Inc with some far-right radical.
Bush, as another example, attended the G8 meeting earlier this year. Putin also attended that meeting. Does this mean Bush should be judged based on his "association" with Putin? Does this mean he secretly endorses Putin's views? Well, based on Republican logic he should be.
They also despise him because of his views. According to Republican logic, if you don't conform to the Republican ideaology then you are a far-left radical. It really is absurd.
Americans, I love them. But you can't get away from the fact that a large number of them seem brainwashed to conform to the norms of their society rather than challenge those norms and risk progress.
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I just listened to BBC news and can not but think it' very disingenous of the BBC to accentuate the negative with respect to extreme passions against Obama. For one, there's more positive pereception of Obama than there are negative, so much that some have called it Obamania. More importantly, it's just few days ago someone in London shot a man for wearing an Obama T-shirt, and you expect the BBC to realize that their broadcast of such dangerous venoms on prime time TV may well be tantamount to a sort of incitement
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While charges and counter charges, distortions of reality, and smear tactics to destroy the image of an opponent are commonplace in American politics, some of the things that are taking place this time are very different from previous campaigns.
Questions regarding Obama's character and judgment because of his superficial relationship with Ayers, and casual contacts with Retzko and a Fannie Mae executive have produced no evidence of wrongdoing. The fact that Obama has received political contributions from organizations that are suspected of fraud is something that happens continuously in Capitol Hill and involves members of both parties. Nevertheless, these are legitimate issues for McCain to raise and are consistent with what has happened in previous campaigns. The same goes for Obama's pro-choice stand. Ultimately, it is up to the electorate to judge and decide their relevance.
What the McCain/Palin team should not be doing is accusing Obama of being a terrorist sympathizer, accusing him of being a Muslim while at the same time criticizing him for attending Rev. Wright's Christian Church, insinuating that attending a madrassa in Indonesia when he was a small child is somehow evidence of Islamic inclinations, and emphasizing his middle name to generate hatred, as if that was evidence of a cultural affinity with Saddam and OBL is very wrong and un-American. While most Americans accept these issues as what they are - campaign rhetoric - they do have a very negative effect on the most radical elements of the party with potential for very unfortunate outcomes.
Considering that the extreme negative campaigning is not producing positive results for McCain, perhaps he should try conducting himself as a gentleman and professional and put an end to the garbage politics. Who knows, the public may notice and view him as they did a few months ago when he was doing a lot better than now.
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“I’m mad; I’m really mad!” the voter bellowed.
We know.
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Justin,
When this election season is over, I would be very interested to read your reviews of the respective campaigns.
My analysis from the Republicans (if they do lose) is that the GOP made a mistake of meddling in the Democrats nomination process. At the beginning of the year they went all guns blazing on Hilary Clinton, she was unelectable for President etc etc. They thought Hilary was the most beatable opponent they could face and I think that held Hilary Clinton back in some states.
Once Clinton's nomination was increasingly unlikely, they said Obama was unelectable in a Presidential race and some right-wing commentators asked Republicans to vote for Clinton in the primary elections.
Instead of concentrating on their own candidates strengths, they have concentrated too much on the Democratic nomination. If they had let the Democrats take care of their own business they might have been running against Clinton and they might have built up more positive energy around their candidate.
Now the right-wing anger is just a repetition of left-wing anger for Bush. I believe Rush Limbaugh commented that those people who called President Bush 'terrorist, election stealer' should go live some place else other than America- where there is such a thing as a democratic process. Isn't it time that those right-wingers who hate the idea of a democratically elected President Obama should leave America also?
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First: of the four
Palin generates the most irrational hate than Obama.
Second with the exception of Fox and ABC, the other networks especially NBC and their hate arm MSNBC have been pro Obama for the last 18 months.
Likewise the NYT refused to do investigative articals on Obama but gives front page to an unsubstaiated smear on McCain
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My mom spoke to me the other day about a rally in NH that a friend of hers had been to and left in disgust. McCain's campaign has really brought the ugliest aspects of the GOP. They truly are almost getting to riot status and its making a disgrace of this country even more to ourselves and to the outside world. It is really making ME angry that this Palin woman cannot be sued for slander or false advertising... don't we do that to companies? I know Obama and Biden are guilty of this too but she is just totally distorting facts in a way that makes her totally pathological and is starting to border on dangerous.
I do wonder as well... if the Secret Service are supposed to protect her... does that mean they should protect her from herself? If she ends up creating a riot could they arrest her for that offense? Not to go off topic but what if that does happen and she creates a public blood frenzy like? She promotes it by not addressing the hatred and racism.
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Ralph Nader opposed the bailout, as the majority of Americans did (so says the polls). Why is he not allowed on the debates?
In fact, he went to Congress and predicted this economic catastrophe coming, but was laughed at by the House.
Home of the free and land of the brave... but not brave enough to debate Ralph Nader.
http://www.beachwoodreporter.com/politics/nader_predicted_wall_street_me.php
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#4 - moderate_observer:
"Ive never heard of such anger on a campaign trail before. this is looking like something from the 60s."
Actually there's a much more recent reference: Karl Rove's out-and-out trashing of John McCain (and to a lesser extent, Al Gore) in the 2000 presidential race on behalf of then-governor Bush. It was Rove who let this evil genie out of the bottle, and the obliteration of political civility in this country is his legacy. He will no doubt be judged by future generations as one of the darker figures in American history. And, sad to say, Palin has picked up right where he left off. Not very surprising, since she doesn't seem to know what else to do--certainly not offer up a credible (or even vaguely coherent) policy.
To play on one of her more famous comments: what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Karl Rove? Lipstick.
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Justin, no offense, but ever since abortion rights were finally awarded (much belateidly and way after every other nation in the western world I might add!!!) the women of this country, in every subbsiquent election season after that ruleing, the Republican candidate and his supporters has accused the Democratic candidate and his supporters of being "baby killers, encourageing murder, endorseing murder etc etc etc, as if to suggest or imply-quite successfully done many times I ashaimadly admit-that Democrats view a womans choice whether to have an abortion or not the same way as one would view a decision on whether or not to buy a pare of shews or not, I.E. with no sincerity or sense of moral or gravitational purpose at all!)" unfortionatly. This is nothing new in the United States of Intolerance and Disrespect!! And sure as rain, it rears its ugly head again in this election cycle-and will continue to do so until Roe V. Wade is (as it will most ertainly be if a Republican president gets into office who is finally able to tip the Supreme court's judges in their favor) overturned. Of that you can be assured. The issue of abortion at least, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a possible raceism toward Obama!!!
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... some Republicans despise Obama in a way few Democrats despise McCain.
Many of them would despise him somewhat less if he was white.
Right-wing politicians and right-wing media for years have told these people that Democrats are not just wrong, but are an evil enemy. They make scapegoats of Democrats the same way Nazis made scapegoats of Jews and Bolsheviks.
It's difficult to understand why these people are so angry. But, it is worth noting that McCain and Palin are not pandering to their economic fears, but to their religous and cultural fears. These people -- who I suspect have the least contact with a diverse population than any in the U.S. -- believe that they represent the "true" America, and that the rest of us are here at their pleasure, if indeed we don't pose a threat.
If a proto-fascist party, like that of Le Pen or the BNP, forms in the U.S., these people will be the base.
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If he were the pre-presidential candidate McCain, he would do something to quell that sort of behavior at his rallies and in his own campaign. Then again, considering how much the Rush Limbaughs of the world do to fan the flames of anger and intolerance every day, it probably wouldn't do much good.
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#20 I don't think many people hate Palin. Lots of people think that she is an idiot and totally unqualified to be let anywhere near Washington DC - and that's just the conservative commentators.
The rest of us just laugh at her now. The tinge of fear that she might actually become VP is disappearing by the day...
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New to the blog, so please be gentle with me...
The sad thing about the current election process in USA is that it repeatedly veers towards the lowest common denominator
We might all hope that with the growth of technology, the internet, available new media etc that we would all be well informed and thereafter balanced reasonable individuals. However, election processes on both sides of the Atlantic in recent years shows us that when any party is in a hole they all too easily resort to mud-slinging or fear-mongering to find an easy way out
As a British citizen I obviously have no say in the US election, but as a citizen of the world i feel a desperate urge for good sense and clear thinking to prevail (in all territories) and for politics to move to a higher ground based on reasoned arguments and public service that does just that - serves the public
Is there any chance that this can be achieved?
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Breaking news. This just happened.
"I have to tell you. Sen. Obama is a decent person and a person you don't have to be scared of as president of the United States," McCain said. The crowd then booed.
Yup, McCain was booed by his own audience after telling them that Obama was a decent guy.
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As an Obama supporter I think should the unthinkable happen and Obama be assassinated by one of these loons, I think it'll be very clear who pushed people to such acts.
At the beginning of this campaign I like most people thought John McCain was an honorable man. I no know not only that I was wrong but how wrong I was.
John McCain's campaign is now attacking Michelle Obama. By this time next week, they'll be requesting the records to their daycare provider to link Obama's kids to something slimy.
Why won't the Conservatives with real dignity say, "Enough is enough."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hey Sam! What did you make of Life on Mars US?
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These people you spoke with in Ohio, Justin, do not represent the majority view. If they did Obama would not be leading nationally and in so many of the so-called battleground states. Violent anti-abortionists are not new. They have been around since Roe vs. Wade. Maybe you should cleanse yourself of the filth you encountered in Ohio by visiting a college campus or a more enlightened state. Try Connecticut or Vermont.
What concerns me most is the state of McCain's mind. I think something is seriously wrong with him. Ambition I can understand, since all politicians suffer from it, but to betray yourself, as McCain has done, suggests a mental problem.
When melanoma recurs, and is internal, it can attack any organ. Perhaps what I think I see as the early stages of dementia may be cancer. Whatever it is, it has made him dangerous.
If he is suffering from neither dementia nor cancer, then he is even more dangerous.
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ProfCapelo: 'More importantly, it's just few days ago someone in London shot a man for wearing an Obama T-shirt, and you expect the BBC to realize that their broadcast of such dangerous venoms on prime time TV may well be tantamount to a sort of incitement.'
Before this story takes on a life if its own, it ought to be said the attacker (who was white) used a clearly racist word and a ball-bearing gun, not a firearm. The Obama T-shirt may very well have actually been incidental, since if you read the full report (bearing in mind, please, that it was in the Daily Mail, a right-leaning conservative British newspaper) it appears to have been a racially motivated attack.
Especially as the description of the attacker is emblematic (to the British reader) of the style of supporters of such organisations as the BNP.
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Justin Webb
This Independent American voter, who at one time, had some respect for John McCain has nothing but CONTEMPT for him now.
We all know that racial prejudice lives in a very shallow cesspit underneath this country's so called 'values.' What McCain and his supporters are attempting is to stir up the muck and incite the rabble.
Could they actually hope that some 'crazy' will try to attack or even eliminate Obama so that they will not have to campaign on the real issues or answer the tough questions about their own lives?
I am finished with this thread. Find something else to discuss!
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21, IndependentGuy.
"If she ends up creating a riot could they arrest her for that offense?"
I believe that as the law stands she could be charged with inciting to riot. I brought this up on a previous thread. However, the authorities would be hesitant to take action since it would be seen as political. Also in the area where she is inciting to riot, which candidate are the authorities supporting?
Before anyone would take action there probably would have to be an actual riot and obvious cause and effect. If her language became more explicit, I guess then they would go after her.
Palin is getting so close to the edge that I am surprised that the more prudent Republicans are not reining her in.
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"20. At 10:49pm on 10 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
First: of the four
Palin generates the most irrational hate than Obama."
When has Palin been called a terrorist? When has her husband been insulted by a national news channel?
When has a top democrat "joked" about assassinating Palin?
"Second with the exception of Fox and ABC, the other networks especially NBC and their hate arm MSNBC have been pro Obama for the last 18 months."
Maybe they are right to. What are their news values? Have they ridiculed McCain's wife?
"Likewise the NYT refused to do investigative articals on Obama but gives front page to an unsubstaiated smear on McCain"
As it is i entitled to do.
But has the NYT said McCain is a terrorist?
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The whole thing is odd.In the UK and most civilised countries if you held a political rally in which supporters were clearly seen to be calling for the death of yor opponent, you would certainly have to do some explaining to the police.
Its that curious US thing which Germans in the 1930s used tocall blind in the right eye. If you are from the extreme right (and the right colour) you are given enormous licence.
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#28 Arcadianspireite - welcome!
I agree, I think it would be a better world if the candidates clearly presented their views on issues without slinging mud at the other candidate(s). I for one would love to hear a clear yes/no answer more often.
But I'm afraid in the US the high road of politicking is not likely to be achieved anytime soon. We voters over here are for the most part too lazy to do much research on either issues or candidates. I think it comes from too much TV...
As for Justin's unearthing of the angry people - Remember that you're most likely to encounter people with strong political opinions at rallies like that. The majority of the less opinionated population, (myself included) are too lazy to go.
You'll probably see Obama win next month, and there will be just as much badmouthing of him as there was of Bush. It's the American way!
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On the other hand, McCain faces conservative backlash over mortgage plan.
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I frighteningly agree with British-ish at #10 and to some extent TheHandOfHistory at #15. As was discussed in an earlyer thread, the Republicans of today bring up Ronold Raegon all the time as if they worship him, but yet fail to see the irony of how completely "unReagonesque" they are being, and what a complete about face they have turned on his campaign style and tactics!! Raegon would never question his aponent's patriotism! He would never question his relationship with some shady charictor from their past who may be spoke two words to them their entire life-especially if the facts on such an association were already known and out in the open!!! And most importantly and never once mentioned by today's Republicans, Raegon saw good in his aponents, and believed in working with them to solve common problems!! He didn't believe-as most Republicans seem to do today-that anyone who disagreed one iota with the Republican candidate's line of thinking was therefore secretly plotting to overthrow the United States government in the dead of night-which is why he was admired across the board!!!! And yet this is today's Republican's hero? Can't they see how rediculous and hypacriticle they're being? The Republican party has practicly transformed into the Nazi party of the 21st century!! Although 'TheHandOfHistory, I would advise you to not think that "all" Republicans today believe this. There are several moderate Republicans who are just as disgusted with these people's actions as the Democrats are. But yes it is glareingly obvious apparent in the extremest of the Republican party, and I believe that one person who believes this is one too many!!
But TheHandOfHistory, I strongly advise you not to despise David Cameron because of who he is. Despiseing David Cameron simply because he's David Cameron is just as bad as despiseing Berack Obama because he's black! Hate Cameron's policies, not his person!!
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Interesting decision to not post the footage of the people at the rally in Ohio. Those are real Americans expressing opinions on the level political discourse has sunk to in the US aided and abetted by "talk radio". Sneering, mocking, name calling, yelling; it's par for the course everyday on every talk radio channel everywhere in america, That attitude, not so crudely expressed but with the same underlying hostility started to show up with Reagan and was not confined to the red states.
Obama is the current target. It has been ANY democrat.
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I think race is robust player in this campaign. Some Americans, mostly the elders despise Obama( though the despise is not emanating from personal hatred),but they are dubious whether a black man is fit to lead USA--- the superpower and the solo leader of 21st century’s world. And I think those have some right to doubt, for black men remain untested in the American soil, particularly, when it comes to hold the office of commander in chief. But, the advice I like to give the Obma despisers and the hesitant ones is the guy is the product of American dream; he is well educated, open minded, and willing to listen and accept correction. Thus he is competent leader that can lead a great country like America to the heights of glory and magnificence. Race inferiority is bogus and man-made as we all know. So do not deprive the man of leadership that he deserves for the sake of his skin color.
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Those who would shout "baby killer" are likely to be the kind of people who take it into their own hands to bomb abortion clinics, akin to Eric Robert Rudolph, James Kopp and more recently Paul Evans, whose bomb, mercifully, did not explode. Those are the radical Republicans, and the McCains, both Mr and Mrs, and Mrs Palin should condemn these, publicly, and in no uncertain terms. Incitement to violence is criminal and to allow it to continue shows to what depths the McCain campaign will sink.
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I've watched the coverage of all three of the debates so far on CNN.
The Republicans on their post game show gave both the first two debates (Presidential and VP) to the Republican candidate; quite credulously in my mind when you consider the VP debate. However well Sarah Palin did to avoid embarrassing herself, the ticket, her party and the country she did not win the debate.
Anyway....
Not one of the Republican "analysts" tried to say that McCain had won the third debate. Indeed I think I could already perceive the beginnings of a backlash against the McCain campaign. They were already trying to blame the loss on McCain specifically not on a failure of the ideas he represented (or even the perception in the country).
I expect more of this to come if the polls continue in there current direction for the next few weeks.
I thought the link in an earlier blog pointing to a piece lamenting the Republicans' flight from ideas was very interesting. Of course there is a tradition of that extremely backwards conservatism in America (and elsewhere), it seems to be finding a home in the Republican party at the moment.
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Post 29. Unbelievable. I saw this on Fox News. McCains' own crowd bellowing and booing because he said Obama is a decent family man? This after some idiot said something like "she couldn''t trust Obama because he's an Arab". How much was this worthless stooge paid?
And then two of the three talking heads on Fox made out that McCain was out of line? Is the Charles really alive, I'm sure he was in Madame Tussauds last time I went and he looks like he/s melting now?
Where do they get these people? How narrow is the gene pool over there?
There is something radically wrong in the good ole US of A. Your country is falling round your ears, GM is on the verge of jacking it in, that radical Socialist movement the Republican party is proposing to part nationalise your banks and a stadium full of McCain supporters still struggles to muster one decent thought and a positive IQ?
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Our country is dealing with a sickness of greed and narcissistic ideology. We are channeling our fear and anxiety by scapegoating that which we do not understand or appears different from ourselves. Neither party is any more or less American but one party wants to go back to an America that never existed and the other to one that might never be possible. We must know where we are now in order to find the solutions to the problems that are greater than we even imagine at this point.
The reality is that a country divided cannot stand and if we can't even understand that fact, we will betray the the intentions and undo the freedoms established by our forefathers and subsequent humanitarians that have made our country a better place. Neither party, man, woman or idea can solve the vast problems we now face-the global impact of our short-sighted ways of living. Since most people cannot look honestly at themselves, a rigorous honest look at our actions as a country and as a species is unlikely to happen. Until we can look at the problems as steming from ourselves we will always look outward to blame or give our power away to leaders who may not have our best interest at heart. Until we stop characterizing our brothers and sisters of humanity as evil, we will never learn to change in any real way. Unfortunately the time available to learn these lessons is shorter than we think and we are about to experience the full brunt of our actions as a whole.
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Evening in the States, when people use computers, and the moderator has knocked off for the day.
Marvellous
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Alaska to release Troopergate transcript.
Will it be interesting?
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Predictably, we are about to see (for the millionth time) the same accusations and counter-accusations. I've begged the same people before to just give it a rest, but I don't suppose I or others will be heeded this time either.
I'm rather more interested in when, as Justin has tried to hint, his own party and supporters, having built themselves up into such a frenzy of antagonism and anger, might turn on McCain himself, not necessarily for losing after November 5th, but for looking as though he might lose any time in the next three weeks.
If either happens, it looks to me as though it would make a rabid pit-bull fight look like two kittens playing with a ball of string.
If this thread, however, doesn't move on soon, I will.
(Yes, I know, given the apparent temper of many in the USA now, that's not much of a threat.)
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MSNBC is reporting that a vote has taken place to release the Troopergate report: what follows?
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MUST WATCH
THANK YOU SARAH PALIN!
Republicans will have a heart attack when they watch it.
Everyone else must watch this.
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The Troopergate report confirms Palin abused her power.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The vote to release was unanimous ....
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Jerry Springer:The Opera just doesn't seem quite such a laugh now as it did at first, does it, somehow?
Are these people that "Silent Majority" who have suddenly found their voice? I always suspected this is what they would sound like if they did.
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This is really starting to look scary. As #4 moderate_observer points out it sounds like the furious emotion of the 1960s, except this time the angry ones are a frantic right wing against a largely passive and much more mature left wing.
Do Republican voters assume that after 8 years they have some god-given right to govern? What the hell are they going to do if Obama wins it, declare independence and bring the Confederacy back?
I've tried to convince myself since being a teenager that Americans are real people who aren't actually so stupid that dropping the word "terrorist" in an ad would make them think Obama is actually a terrorist. But really?! I personally think David Cameron is a proper **** but I wouldn't call him a traitor or a terrorist just because I'm worried he'll be prime minister next election.
It's astounding to an outsider how much American voters are clinging to the party of an administration that is so widely believed to have failed. The view of this woman at the end, that "America has never needed more someone [like Palin] who is just like us", is even more staggering after 8 years of Bush - the president who makes Dan Quayle look intellectual and whose sole quality was you could "have a beer with him" - than her apparent ignorance that the US Constitution was founded on the secular separation of church and state.
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Politics Home has a link to the full Palin Report.
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Justin,
If you want a laugh, look at this endearing picture of Palin en famille at the official website for the Alaskan Governorship.
http://gov.state.ak.us/large_photo.php?id=175
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#49
Nat,
Not really. She abused power but didn't break the law. Not a game changer. It's been obvious for a while she is a fairly typical small town politician, and this kind of behavior is expected.
Unless Bin Laden is found hiding in BHO's cellar wearing a dress this is going to follow the course of the last few weeks. McCain gets more and more desperate, his base gets more and more angry. The swing states continue to trend to BHO and the Republicans lose ground in congress.
I voted today. First time I have voted a straight ticket ever. Sad really.
Voter Sam
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"Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110 (a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act"
(BBC News)
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"I want everybody to be respectful".
Bit late.
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Wow McCain/Palin are totally 'what she doesn't think you should do before marriage even though her daughter did', and I mean totally! Abuse of power? Is anyone surprised?
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60, Sam.
"I voted today. First time I have voted a straight ticket ever. Sad really."
Ditto for me. Sad really.
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#57 Clueduprock
"Do Republican voters assume that after 8 years they have some god-given right to govern?"
I suspect that is exactly how some of the Christian Conservatives view things. In this view Bill Clinton and now Barack Obama are not merely opposition politicians but agents of satan preventing them from doing gods work, hence the incredible vitriol of the attacks on Clinton in the 90's and Obama now.
Speaking of Clinton where have the pair of them disappeared to when they could actually be useful?
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59, Revolution.
Well at least the Palins don't have to worry about being called elitist.
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I respectfully submit that there is more to the degree of anger evidenced than just racism, or a sense of losing control... Both are important factors, but we also might be up against a bit of history. Looking at the Depression, anger also flared, and was fanned by demagogues such as Ford, Lindbergh, and esp. Father Coughlin. The sudden fear of the comfortable world turning upside down can and does seem to bring out the worst in a small part of our population, and might be weighing in now. In times of trouble, some Americans appear to find comfort in railing against the unknown, the foreign, the alien.
And we are I'm sure not alone in this phenomenon.
For me, though, this comes down to the failures of our educational system over the last 40 years. Critical thinking, rational thought, intellectual pursuits, have always been held in lesser status as the glory of sports, or dreams of stardom, but the trend seems to be accelerating. I've been on both sides of the political aisle, but abandoned the Republican side because the intellectuals were eclipsed by the emotions-based populists. Dems are often guilty of the same thing, but some still make the honest effort to think things through.
Even if Obama does eke out a win, I fear for this country...
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52, galeooo.
Obama should use that in one of his ads. A killer!
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ARAB! MUSLIM!
If this is an insult at a Republican rally for a person running for POTUS, we should agree that on November 5 when America has its "black" president, the issue of racial-ethnic stratification will still be around.
May be FAT will be the new BLACK! Get ready to staple your beer gut or be continuously marginalized.
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#60
All,
I stand corrected, she broke an ethics law. That would be bad.
Apologies
Sad Sam
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#70
Even merely reporting this will have the media (MainStreamMedia) attacked for persecuting her. But this might nudge a few more independents the other way...
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#56 British-ish
"Are these people that "Silent Majority" who have suddenly found their voice? I always suspected this is what they would sound like if they did."
I've always liked this old bumper sticker:
The 'moral majority'... are neither.
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so im watching anderson cooper ac360. Pundits claim that the attack ads will backfire about a week ago.
Its been less than a week since the official attacks started and already mccain is repenting, telling his audience not to fear him he is decent. talk about backire. he got booed at his own rally by his own supporters.
He opened the can of worms on this and it its biting hin in th A***.
McCain playing with fire, and is risking his reputation for the sake of winning an election.
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Not that there aren't plenty of knee-jerk ignorant folks on the left in the U.S., but it sadly has been the Republican party that in the last ten years has taken the mantle as the successors to the Jim Crowe South.
By pandering to uneducated voters throughout the country through the politics of fear, they have stoked racial and cultural divisions that were not much evident during the Carter, Bush or Clinton years.
Credit Lee Atwater and his ilk for injecting their brand of hate-mongering into everything they've touched. Getting rid of their entire crowd is why the U.S. needs a major correction. It needs to be OK again to read, discuss and think. Good riddance to all of them.
I only hope that the mobs created by Palin and McCain are up to the task of pulling together for a positive cause once their people lose.
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I've never seen such viciousness in an election in the 50 years I've been watching them. I've never seen such such viciousness anywhere else, except in situations which obviously were racially motivated. Therefore, I conclude that the extreme attacks on Obama are based on racial prejudice and fear, even though most people won't admit it. Strange, because blacks have reached every other level in government.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf6YKOkfFsE
This is amazing to watch.
A Presidential candidate being booed at his own rally.
This is what happens when you unleash the dogs of hate. If McCain means what he says here, he should also pull the current ad calling Obama a terrorist sympathiser.
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For #76. What's so amazing? Remember Slobodan Milosevic? His war crime was the hate he stirred up via the media. Just as the market is swayed by media mania, so is hate. While Justin may be asking the question, he is also flaming the fire....burn, baby burn...
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76, Cyril.
Aren't you all misunderstanding what you are watching? McCain is just trying to look like Joe Good Guy, while damning Obama when he doesn't have an audience. And the crowd isn't booing McCain. They are booing Obama when McCain mentions him. This is pure McCain being McCain. Sly, manipulative and kind of stupid, because none of it works.
Is there something I am missing?
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I'm an American. I'm a Democrat in Colorado, a midwestern swing-state, and I'm afraid.
I'm afraid for the future of my country.
At the moment, we're very divided. There's a man, a man I thought once honorable, who is willing to do whatever it takes to gain power. He's using every lie, misdirection, spin, and showhorse he can to become the most powerful man in the world. His closest followers are advocating murder against his rival, who may be the only hope my country has left for the economy, and for peace.
If that man loses, what will I do? Will I just sit here and accept it?
If he wins, and he is murdered, will I just sit here and accept it?
I wish I could ask all of you to help my country... But right now, we have to depend on ourselves. But, half of us hates the other half, and that half is scared of the other.
Why can't there be just one government?
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For #/All. Have no doubt America will come through this crisis. We have without question been humbled as were the Russians after 1989 and the Japanese after 1997 but we will survive and prosper as will all others once we, as individuals in a global society, come to our collective senses. We must make adjustments to the global economic and financial systems. We must also consider the recklessness of a media that no longer delivers factually based information. These are all difficult challenges but they will be overcome. Not because we are unique in our various national and ethnic origins; but, in our shared desire for peace and a better future for our children. I have abandoned my fear for the future. The worst that could happen is that what may happen will only come sooner than expected…which, in my case, probably isn’t that far off anyway…live your life and live well…and live with faith in the future...
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Usually I vote for the lesser of two evils, the least awful choice. But this time I can't make up my mind. As weak, inexperienced, incompetent, and unsuited for being President of the United States as Obama is, McCain seems every bit as unpalatable, not because I disagree so strongly with his views, but if this is how forcefully and skillfully he has prosecuted his political campaign to be President, what kind of commander-in-chief would he make in Iraq, Afghanistan and solving the nation's economic woes. He seems clueless. His entire campaign has been unfocused, unimaginative, timid, and lacking a cohesive effective strategy. While he was in the military and is regarded as a hero for the service he rendered our country, I'm not sure he really is any more suitable to be commander-in-chief than Obama is. Clinton may have had both of them beat. Neither has the killer instinct of say Vlad Puny. Look at what Puny has done with his banana republic when its black banana has been at historic prices for just a relatively short time. Imagine what someone with his cunning could have done with a really powerful nation. I'm struck by how the entire world of the 21st century is ruled by people who lack an understanding of what power is, how to exercise it, understanding of economics, and just seem to stumble through their jobs taking things one day at a time. "I wrote a letter to xxxx two years ago about the economy" They both said that. Judging from the fact that a month ago we were discussing lipstick on a pig, it could hardly have been uppermost in either of their minds. This weekend's economic summit to bail out a broken world economy that took over a decade to unravel right in front of everyone's blind eyes should be good for a laugh. Or a cry. Obama has come up with the wrong answers while McCain has no answers at all. Maybe I'll just vote NO!
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For #79. BlueFollower. Anxiety is warranted, fear is not. We will get through this peacefully. I see many positive beginnings out of the turmoil we are going through now. I just hope you and many others are young enough to realize the future I'm beginning to see.
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Ally,
My interpretation was that the crowd was booing McCain for defending Obama. McCain responded well, but it was not what the crowd wanted to hear. They would have cheered him if he had gone on to make a racial slur.
My point about the current Ayres ad is that is makes strong false links between Obama and the 60s radical. McCain should pull this misleading ad, if he wants to preserve even a shred of decency.
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Having resorted to the basest campaign strategy McCain has disqualified himself as a Presidential candidate.
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moderate_observer (#73), you say McCain is risking his reputation? I think his reputation has already been redefined by this campaign. I once thought, while not knowing him very well, that he was a decent, honorable man. Now I have no respect for him whatsoever. Most people will remember him now as a presidential candidate who ran the nastiest campaign in modern times, rather than for anything he did in the Senate.
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As an East Coast American, I shudder to see what is happening with the McCain campaign-they can't stand to lose, so they demean themselves; frankly, i do not know how anyone could vote for Mccain after the complete disaster of the last eight years-the things that some people say about Obama are so unintelligent that I am not really proud to be an American-rather the opposite actually. I think without a doubt it comes down to the racism that still exists in America, admitted or not, and its really a shame for America, and for the rest of the world. I only hope that Obama wins...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Clearly the campaign for the White House has deteriorated to name-calling, and clearly neither candidate likes this. So here is my suggestion: Why not release a TV ad that says something along the lines of: "Senators John McCain and Barack Obama have fundamental disagreements about some fundamental issues facing America today, but both candidates want it to be understood that they respect each other and do not consider each other a terrorist, a fascist, dishonorable, or a danger to this country in any way". Followed by: "We are Barack Obama & John McCain, and we approve this message". Now that would restore a much needed touch of class to this rapidly deteriorating campaign.
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Spiteful irrational people, the kind that defame America. One can only hope that progressive, open-minded, people that have something to do with science turn up in droves in November and cast it for Obama
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79, Blue.
I don't think that half the country hates the other half. That is the media talking. If that were true we would not be able to work side by side with people quite different from ourselves.
This is a viscious campaign and McCain is a viscious person, but he hasn't won, and it looks like he won't. We just have to make sure that we and our friends and family get out to vote.
The people ranting "baby killer" have been around a long time. They almost never get beyond talk and we still have our abortions. What I fear is that, if the Republicans rig the election (something they can't do if there is a landslide for Obama), there may well be blood in the streets. McCain has laid the groundwork for that.
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Greetings friends,
Many on here do not understand the outrage of some people here in the Us towards Obama. I hope this will help some of you come to terms of understanding.
Obama has many ties to those who threaten the US. Often when things are exposed the heat gets turned up and well people get angry they are human and it happens. Everyone has an opinion and to me opinions are not what we need in this election it is truth! We can not afford to place someone in the White House who has ties to the Middle East and other parties that carry such a threat to the US Nation. I know I have done my home work personally in regards to this to see if the facts are indeed true about Obama and they are.
Someone had mentioned that McCain is angry at Obama because he can not look at Obama well the reason McCain is not looking at Obama is because for one his advisers told him not to, so he will not get distracted from his speech. People need to really stop assuming things and look at the truth and facts!
The media is really apart of the problem with this election. They have critics come on and they have anaylist come on and so forth and so on and let me tell you confusion comes in and distorts the truth. There is a lot to say in regards to this election.
This is not my opinion this is truth, if you get a chance do your home work you just might be surprised.
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86, ticere.
Like you I am an Eastcoaster. We are lucky because racism is not a big deal up here and we are not bombarded with prosletizing creationists and born-agains. We get to sleep in on Sunday.
It must be uncomfortable to be a Southerner right now, especially a Southerner for Obama.
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#47
Raises important points.
The "redneck" mentality is pervasive and includes about a third of the US population.
As with the Nazis, the common folk included many filled with vicious hate while their financial betters sought to use and control them for their own purposes.
Also on ideological and religious grounds, America is at a turning point.
Its future will be decided within a month!
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#88. mzungumasaai - Nice idea about a joint message, but don't hold your breath!
#90. allmymarbles: " They almost never get beyond talk and we still have our abortions."
Google 'abortion clinics bomber' and there are around 58,000 references. Much of it is repetitive, but there are those who would bomb and kill, not just the operators, but those inside or around these establishments.
If Roe -v- Wade is ever overturned, I suppose that in addition to back street operators and an increased sale of knitting needles, there will be flights available to countries where the procedure is not unlawful, and even off-shore vessels providing such services. Since Russia can be seen from Alaska, perhaps it would just a be hop, skip and a jump to a facility just over the border. Same with Canada. Hopefully that will never come to pass.
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MAII, "the entire world of the 21st century is ruled by people who lack an understanding of what power is, how to exercise it."
No; there are far too many politicians who understand far too well what power is, how to seize it, and how to exercise it.
There are few who use it to the advantage of the people who either elected them or allowed them to take power.
I think you should perhaps be careful what you wish for. The Greeks of your era knew that very well.
And, chitlins wrote, "I see many positive beginnings out of the turmoil we are going through now. I just hope you and many others are young enough to realize the future I'm beginning to see."
Well, I can see one over here that may have possibilities. And I think I'm (just) young enough for that. I'm not so sure about over there now. Not unless I was maybe going to be about four next week when it's my birthday.
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I have just returned to this discussion and read all the amazingly thoughtful posts so far. They bring back hope.
Some quick comments :
# 22 asks why Nader was not allowed to participate in the bailout debate. Could I add that Warren Buffet warned of this situation no less than four years ago. I understand that he is acting as an adviser on Obama's economic team.
# 88 - proposes joint declaration by McCain and Obama to calm things down - brilliant idea. Is there any way that this could happen ?
And a bow of the knee to Sam and Marbles who have already cast their vote. For heavens sake don't let it stop you blogging though !
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I watched a portion of a speech by McCain today. He was saying nice things about Obama and people were booing him for saying them. Yet McCain persisted and even corrected a woman when she called Obama an Arab.
Is this another two-faced act by McCain, or has he been warned not to foment hatred? It will be interesting to see what happens. If he does cut back on his racial attacks then either sensible people in his own party, or some government agency, may have intervened.
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My worst fear that America is soon ready to sell off the remainder of its assets--mainly its innate powers of reinvention found in the fabric of the people, personified in Barack obama-- seems plausible. If America hesitates in great numbers to check his name on election day, democracy has not failed--it has simply reflected the genuine character of the people and their biases.
Maybe all those who have been called unpatriotic for not participating in the yee-haw flag waving of redneck war mongers are, categorically, not patriots of this America, but now lost people in a strange land; theirs is now lost.
"The philosopher has no place in the city except at its helm."
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It occurs to me that pro-Obama bloggers and commentators would be wise to let the Palin Troopergate investigation drop now.
The point has been made and it probably confirms that those people who urged McCain to select her omitted to vet her properly. But we more or less knew that anyway.
It might have the very welcome benefit of stopping her from making any more incendiary accusations about Obama.
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McCain has created a monster in his laboratory,
and, like Frankenstein, it has turned on him, and
will destroy everything that he loves.
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My son is an installation tech for a major dish satellite company. He is in the homes of many people of all economic status everyday. Tonight he called me to discuss the absolute anger he is encountering with his customers each day. Not anger with his company, but anger with John McCain and Barrack Obama.
Anger with McCain because he is continuing to not talk about Obama’s lack of ability to lead and to ask the questions that need to be ask about his rather unknown background. Questions they feel the media should be pursuing but will not.
Anger with Obama for his reluctance to discuss what he really stands for, where his financial backing is coming from and his beating all around the bush but never touching a leaf on it.
Middle America is angry because it is comprised of mostly hard working people that are fed up with their paychecks being confiscated by the government for the support of millions of illegal aliens, greedy Wall Street CEOs, people that won’t work and millions and millions of wasted dollars on poorly managed government programs.
They are angry because Washington, DC is beyond broken and went against the wishes of the majority of the people when they pushed through the recent $700 B bail out. (By the way the market has gone down more and faster than prior to the bail out.) So much for representative government.
For thinking people, they are so fed up with the finger pointing and no one stepping up to take the reins of this run away horse. By law, no President of the United States has ever been able to spend one penny of taxpayer money. Every dollar spent must be approved by the Congress through a series of votes. Democrats are blaming the President when, in fact, Democrats have controlled the Congress and thus the public purse for the past few years.
Money spent on the war in Iraq, medical care and housing for illegal aliens, government give aways of every type and description, food stamps, WIC, Social Security, disability, subsidies to huge companies, law enforcement, roads, bridges and the beat goes on, not one red cent is spent without the approval of the Congress. A Democrat controlled Congress for the record.
Starting to get the picture why people are angry?
Obama offers platitudes while McCain harps about working across the aisle. Neither are showing any leadership, or even more important, statesmanship.
People are shouting at McCain to try and get his attention. Trying to get him off the old, worn out political speeches, the lower taxes, reform government mumbo jumbo we have been hearing for years. People are trying to get him to point out the very real difference between what is being offered and what the voters really want.
The people that own the small businesses, the farms, work in the factories, shop in the stores, use the professional services when needed, work every day and pay their taxes are fed up with the creeping socialism that has been eating away at the American way of life for the past twenty years. It is a cancer they want to see removed, totally.
Obama is not the person to do that, based on his history, support for more and more government during his elected career and his lack of candor when talking about his true allegiances.
McCain, to many Conservatives, is a Democrat in disguise. He has proven that he loves his country and that is certainly a big point in his favor. I believe that most Conservatives see Governor Palin as a leveling factor that will play a role in keeping him from wandering too far off to the left side of the world.
Thus all this pent up anger is starting to show itself in people that are feeling very helpless, left out of the political process, betrayed by their own government and elected representatives. Where do they have to turn? Nowhere.
If McCain really wants to serve his country in these most dangerous times, he will listen to and take heed from these so-called “angry” people. They are not the media, not some organized political action committee, not a well oiled and funded Moveon.org type of organization, not a public relations firm, not the arm of a giant corporation. No, these are the people that carry this country on their backs 24/7.
It’s time someone listens to them. And if it takes shouting to be heard, I'm sure they will.
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"except this time the angry ones are a frantic right wing against a largely passive and much more mature left wing."
Surely you jest ? Would this be the same "mature left wing" who hacked Palin's email account ? Who claimed Palin wasn't a "real" woman" ? Who have called Bush "Hitler" for eight years ? Who have attacked local Republican party offices ? Pot.kettle.black.
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"It's time someone listens to them. And if it takes shouting to be heard, I'm sure they will."
Great post, excongressman ! In fact, the best post on the entire thread. Good to see someone who really knows America adding their view to this site.
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It is sad that the BBC decided to self-censor when it came to broadcasting the racist views of some Republican extremists .Strangly,the Corporation would not have hesitated to show similar people spewing their hate in the UK.
The racist tone of the Campaign serves to remined us of two things.Firstly, that their are deep divisions within US Society that it's admirers in Britain prefer to turn a blind eye to.Secondly,that American democracy does not have the ancient lineage often claimed for it.In fact it is only around 40 years old as America only abandoned it's own version of Apartheid,Segragation,in the 1960's.
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"If he does cut back on his racial attacks"
It would be interesting to see just ONE example of a McCain "racial" attack on Obama. Please provide evidence for such a baseless slur. Something tells me I've got a long wait before I get given one single example.
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Given that neither McCain, Obama nor the current US administration has come up yet with a satisfactory plan to solve this crisis, I think I can help.
I have been reminded today there is a serious human cost to this crisis in the banking and financial sector.
I suggest, therefore, that all three read Guy Browning's 'rescue plan'.
If adopted, it would allow Bush (or McCain) to demonstrate they know what "compassionate conservatism" can do; and were Obama to take it on, it would show his detractors that 'liberalism' can mean much the same thing.
(All I can, or will, say to 'excongressman' -- and if he really is, then why isn't he accepting any responsibility for how the supposed situation he describes has come about? -- is that this sort of simplistic right-wing nonsense has been ably refuted by very many people here previously.)
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"The racist tone of the Campaign"
Hilarious !!! One woman says something stupid at one campaign rally and suddenly the whole "Campaign" is racist ! Why that's like saying all those attacks on Sarah Palin mean the whole campaign is Sexist.
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Thanks vivaelcid for the nice comment. As the saying goes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. It is amazing how little people in America know about their own government let alone some of the totally uninformed posts from overseas.
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"Could I add that Warren Buffet warned of this situation no less than four years ago. I understand that he is acting as an adviser on Obama's economic team."
If that is the case it's a shame Buffet didn't warn Obama and the Democrats that their beloved Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were about to contribute to the collapse of the US economy.
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104: "American democracy does not have the ancient lineage often claimed for it. In fact it is only around 40 years old."
Quite. No more than Athenian democracy was actually anything more than an oligarchy with an election process. Which also included neither women nor slaves.
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"I've never seen such such viciousness anywhere else, except in situations which obviously were racially motivated. "
You don't get out much do you, old chap ? I would have thought some of the violence in Northern Ireland during elections was pretty vicious but maybe you consider calling someone too inexperienced to be President the same as a knee-capping?
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104: "American democracy does not have the ancient lineage often claimed for it. In fact it is only around 40 years old."
As opposed to the ancient lineage of British democracy I suppose ? When were women given the vote in Britain ? How long has Britain been a nation ?
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In response to excongressman at #101, I write as someone who spent twenty years as an elected representative. The first piece of advice I was given by a wise old head was not to just listen to those people who shout the loudest - they may not be the ones with the solution to the problem.
We can all sympathise with Americans and their shock at discovering how very badly things have gone. Things aren't looking too bright in the rest of the world either.
But does the answer really lie in the wisdom of Sarah Palin ? Maybe when she stops rabble-rousing and starts behaving like a responsible leader, but at the moment a lot of blame for the current noise must be laid at her door.
And this has nothing to do with Troopergate. It is because she has used a shrill, near-hysterical voice into what should be a serious campaign.
The swipe at Obama's "allegiances" is wearying - especially coming from someone who calls himself an ex-congressman. The America of "bring me your tired and muddled masses" seems willing to turn in on itself to reject progress and compassion in favour of incoherent rage.
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" is that this sort of simplistic right-wing nonsense has been ably refuted by very many people here previously.)"
Yes, I'm sure those "very many people" were either Left-wing Americans or Britons who have ver little idea of the realities of what is happening in the USA. Unless you see it for yourself it is hard to belief the bias of the MSM in America. For people who expect their journalists to be impartial and balanced, the current situation is extremely frustrating. The fact that the MSM has come out so blatantly in support of Obama will only hasten their decline. A large percentage of the American people have lost trust in the credibilty of the media.
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I am so glad I am not an american voter. To have to choose between two equally useless candidates is bad enough when the economy is in a healthy state. To have to choose when there is economic chaos and a collapse between two men who are simply full of empty words but in reality don't have a clue how to resolve and recover the situation is a really difficult choice. Fortunately I live in a country where the activity (eg of short hedge selling) of Wall Street fraudulent types is illegal, where total bank deposits grossly exceed total bank loans, where banks are forced by law to pursue conservative, careful risk managing policies as a historic result of hyperinflation and economic collapse in the 1920's and late 1980's and where the stock market plays a relatively minor role in the economy. The USA needs to get back to the basics such as a balanced budget with low borrowings. Do Obama or McCain have any idea how to do so? No!
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#106, british-ish, I have a variation of Guy Browning's
rescue plan. If we go with my version of an alcohol-
based currency, then we can put these folks back
to work as bartenders!
Just don't let them mix your drinks like they did
all of those mortgage notes!
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# 111 - Vivelcid
What on earth does that post mean ?
If you're going to say anything, please try and make some sense out of it. Otherwise, as with every time you appear on these pages, you do more harm than good to your cause.
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"The "redneck" mentality is pervasive and includes about a third of the US population.
As with the Nazis, the common folk included many filled with vicious hate while their financial betters sought to use and control them for their own purposes."
Yes !! That must be it. "Rednecks" are just like Nazis !
It actually beggars belief that people posting on this thread can write such ill-informed garbage. Does the poster know what a "redneck" is ? Has he/she ever actually met an American ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
eightypercent commented on "the amazingly thoughtful posts so far".
That was then. But if a week is a long time in politics, then an hour and a half is an eternity on a blog. . .
On a point of information: it is now after 8am in Britain; 9am in Europe. Most contributors actually from the US (where it will be 1am or 2am) have gone to bed.
Why do I wonder how it is that some contributors who so heartily insist on their American credentials are happily awake and scribblingnow?
With that query, I shall make my departure.
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#103. vivaelcid: "Good to see someone who really knows America adding their view to this site."
It's a sure thing that you do not, John. We haven't forgotten you, nor that you live in Britain and are proud to be an Englishman - and who cannot vote. If 'excongressman' is what he says he is, it's apparent that he doesn't have the cojones to use his real name, but he sounds like former California Congressman Bob Dornan, a bigot of the first water. Check Wikipedia for some details of this poor excuse for a human being. If 'excongressman' is not Dornan, then he's in the same league.
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"where banks are forced by law to pursue conservative, careful risk managing policies as a historic result of hyperinflation and economic collapse in the 1920's and late 1980's"
Your country sounds wise. Sadly , in America, some people (Frank, Dodds, Obama etc) decided that people who could never afford to pay back loans should be given 100% mortgages. When some of the banks complained about this they were called "racists" by Dodds, Frank and Obama etc- so they paid up and look at the consequences !
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# 110, Yes Athens denied the vote to women and slaves in the 5th Centuary BC.America was denying it to black people in the 1960's AD.
#112 The UK gave the vote to women in 1918 around the same time as America gave it to White women and around 70 years before it gave it to black people of either sex.Not sure what your other point was about.
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#120, british-ish, some of us have to unwind before
retiring. And, California actually isn't part of the US,
we actually have an Austrian as our governor.
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#120. british-ish: "Why do I wonder how it is that some contributors who so heartily insist on their American credentials are happily awake and scribbling now?"
Because on the West Coast it's midnight, bars and restaurants are still open and some have only just returned home; in Hawaii, it's not yet 10 o'clock.
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"It's a sure thing that you do not, John. We haven't forgotten you, nor that you live in Britain and are proud to be an Englishman"
I live in the USA and I have no idea who "John" is. Some imaginary friend of yours perhaps ?
And, sadly for you, excongressman speaks for many, many ordinary Americans. And as for your pathetic comment about not having the "cojones" to use your real name, maybe it's time you looked at most of the posters here.....How many of your little echo-chamber of Left-liberals use their real name ?
"Why do I wonder how it is that some contributors who so heartily insist on their American credentials are happily awake and scribblingnow?"
Why, I wonder, do some people in Britain have no idea that the US has several time zones ? For those of us on the West Coast it's only just turned 12.30. You might slope off to bed with your Horlicks before midnight but some of us adults actually stay up quite late. Ooooohhh!!
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"#112 The UK gave the vote to women in 1918 around the same time as America gave it to White women and around 70 years before it gave it to black people of either sex"
Interesting ! So according to you, Afro-Americans didn't get the vote until 1988 ! The ignorance of the anti-American comments on this site are simply astounding.
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# 121
David Cunard - the DCI Gene Hunt de nos jours (we've already got a Det. Sam Tyler)
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I really was about to log out when I saw this from vivaelcid:
"A large percentage of the American people have lost trust in the credibilty of the media."
Perhaps long ago the media lost trust in the credibility of a large percentage of the American people.
Oh, and gunsandreligion: Yah betcha! Dawgawn it! Shoah thing! (Sorry, I just can't do the accent. It hurts.)
Must go.
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#127 OK 50 years does that really make it any better ?
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To british-ish #106
In regard to your comments ( that this sort of simplistic right-wing nonsense has been ably refuted by very many people here previously.) and the condescending attitude of your post, I must assume that you are one of those self made intellectuals of the far left. You are great on theory but very poor in practice.
Assuming from your post ID you are from the UK. I would only suggest that you take a look around your part of the world at the great success of your socialist policies. What's your personal tax rate? How long do you have to wait for a good doctor? What's the price of a liter of fuel? What portion of your income does it take just to put bread and milk on the table? How does your overall standard of living compare with other countries in the world?
My ancestor's fled England prior to the establishment of the Thirteen Colonies. The leader of that party was a minister who was fed up with the heavy handedness of the ruling party and was seeking a chance to make something of himself and provide a better standard of living for his family.
I don't want to see this country dissolve into that socialistic morass that he left.
Perhaps my thinking is, how did you put it, simplistic right wing nonsense. Perhaps I don't come up to your intellectual standards. Perhaps I am not endowed with your superior powers of thought and genteel approach to anything worldly. Perhaps I am truly compassionate to my fellow man fallen on hard times rather than the phony compassion shown by liberals who constantly prey on the down trodden by giving them handouts in order to win their vote in the next election. Perhaps you don't understand that money and power is not everything in this life. Perhaps you don't understand anything about patriotism, serving your country or putting others comfort ahead of your own.
No, you can keep your big brother, big government ideas out of my life. Perhaps it is intellectually correct, but it doesn't work in a world of free thinking people that believe in themselves and tomorrow.
To answer your other snide remark, yes I was a Congressman for twelve years starting in the mid eighties and into the mid nineties.
Prior to that I served my country as a volunteer in the U.S. Army and a police officer in a major city. My wife and I have started and operated four successful businesses providing jobs and income for our employees. We have and do support a number of charities that care for the homeless and battered women. Yes. I do own a couple of guns and know how to shot them. Yes, I do believe in God. Yes, I work everyday and pay my taxes. Yes, I own my home and a couple of automobiles. I watch NASCAR, football, the History Channel, A&E, National Geographic and CSI. I eat red meat, don't drink coffee or tea with my pinky in the air nor look down my nose at other people I may not agree with.
In spite of all this I am not the dumb, stupid, uneducated, simplistic, right wing nut redneck that you imply in your post. I don't have season tickets to the tractor pull, they don't know me by my first name at the liquor store, I don't videotape fishing shows nor is my car's hood ornament a former bowling trophy. My wife is not my first cousin, I've never belched while delivering a eulogy, my wedding ring does not change color with my mood swings and there are no car parts on my coffee table.
And now I am wondering why I am wasting my time trying to educate an intellectual with a closed mind rather than being in bed getting a good nights sleep. Common sense tells me this is like pouring water on a rock, little if any will ever soak in.
Have to go to work in the morning. Good night.
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"Yah betcha! Dawgawn it! Shoah thing!"
Oh, the sad snobbery of the British. How I miss that rapier wit of the smug, well-spoken Brits !
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When Clinton was elected, there began an unprecedented effort to bring him down.
It was well funded, well organised, relentless.
Over the years, they could not prove any of the lurid claims, (still repeated them though).
Then they got a break, Bill's personal flaws in the zipper area.
That dress.
So this actually very gifted man had a personal flaw, but had the general campaign, by now run by that latter day witchfinder Ken Starr, not been so relentless, it would never have come to light.
However, if any President, or any person, had that sort of long term hostile scrutiny, eventually something would be found, maybe sexual, maybe something else.
Just imagine what it could be like if Obama wins.
And nothing like this happened to Bush.
As for McCain, remember when he (correctly), described the 'Christian Right' as being neither.
Considering the grip these American Taliban have on the GOP, a brave thing to do.
Then he picks Palin, a perfect example of this ignorance and intolerance.
Go figure.
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"And now I am wondering why I am wasting my time trying to educate an intellectual with a closed mind rather than being in bed getting a good nights sleep. Common sense tells me this is like pouring water on a rock, little if any will ever soak in."
Goodnight, excongressman. Thank you for a couple of the most, articulate posts I've yet seen on this website. It's been a pleasant change from the usual ill-informed, dreary, repetitive anti-American, anti-conservative fodder that is normally on display here.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Has anybody looked closely at the photo of the G7 finance ministers? The body language is highly informative! Look at Mr Paulson. He is highly defensive, evidently protecting a particularly sensive part of his body! Is it guilt feelings due to him being Head of Goldman Sachs for several years and therefore one of the instigators of the current crisis?????
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
May I put in a word of support for British - who eloquently uses these pages to try and make sense of it all. He is now accused - gasp, horror - of being "one of the self-made intellectuals of the left".
We have already commented that the favourite word of abuse for the right wing has proceeded from "liberal" to "elite" to "socialism". Now poor British is a dirty dog because he may be an "intellectual".
British always strikes me as sounding experienced, centrist and compassionate and I hope that he wears his newly acclaimed "intellectual" hat with pride.
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~ Mike
No, I don't think it's because of Goldman Sachs. I think it's because - after several days of shilly-shallying and sending George Bush out into the Rose Garden to soften people up - he is the man who introduced "socialism" into the American economy.
And he did that because it was the only option open to him if he was to save the dollar.
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It is now clear that McCain’s running mate is as much reckless as GWB has been throughout the last 8 years. As far as McCain is concerned it reflects poor judgment in choosing Palin as his running mate.
American people do not want to make an other mistake which brought down the American economic order as well World order with them and with that shame and disgrace to the American people.
Clear lessons for the American people-Never again Republicans and their Neo-conservatives in office again.
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I am a fundamentalist Christian and a conservative Republican. But don’t worry, I won’t scream and yell incoherently and frighten anybody. In fact, I have worked with a number of very left-leaning, liberal people from around the world here in the States and they are often shocked when they find out I am a Christian conservative because I don’t fit their prejudiced views.
I always find it interesting to see what foreigners have to say about the US: her politics, and other adventures which is why I am here on your site so late at night reading.
I do not detest Obama, but the Democrats could not have chosen a more divisive candidate to be the “Uniter”. He is the most left-leaning person in the Senate and the antithesis of a conservative candidate. In fact, McCain really is the candidate who went against the Republican majority many times and could honestly claim to be the one who works across party lines. This is why he is not popular among the base. (He never got my vote in this primary or the 2000 one).
I am sure that race is a factor amongst some voters—even some Democrats will not vote for a black man—but there will always be ignorant people like that. To make the claim that middle-America is completely racist is silly and is a fallback defensive position for the Obama campaign and many of his supporters whenever his character or choice of friends and advisors of Obama is challenged.
The disdain felt by the liberal left towards “middle America” is more virulent than any emotions felt by the center-right and even most of the far right. Recall Obama’s condescending “Clinging to guns and religion” comment? The liberal is much more ignorant and closed-minded yet they feel so certain that they are the enlightened ones, and yet the farther left they go the more blinded they become.
Many conservatives are frustrated because McCain simply is not one of us. Millions of us will vote for him as the lesser of two evils, but it will not be a happy vote. We are frustrated because Obama is really a great speaker who lacks any real experience for the job he is after yet McCain is not showing that the Emperor has no clothes. As much as the Left hates Palin, she at least is a governor of a state! Obama has barely been a Senator. (And the “abuse of power” decree in Alaska will come to nothing because it really is a thin accusation—if you are willing to study it some; it does not lead to corruption but to something with a bit more honorable intent).
The Bush years in office are over no matter who wins. Contrary to the Obama campaign painting McCain as a “Bushy”, he will take the country somewhere else. That somewhere will hopefully not be the socialist “everyone has a right to government aid nanny state” that Obama envisions. Hopefully, it will not be the weak, all-talk-compromising and submissive nation that the Left desires.
This is what many people feel is at stake: the very essence of America. We are approaching a crossroads: either a descent into the European-style, godless blandness; or continuing in a tradition of holding to our convictions, self-sacrifice, high ideals, individualism, traditions and personal responsibility.
I know that the Left (both here and abroad) sees America as a negative force in the world but if we weaken her and she is fundamentally changed, I know that many of them will someday mourn her loss.
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# 47 et sequelae
The televised public meeting showed what is common talk in beer halls.
The "common man" is celebrated in the political mythology, but is usually led by the elite. It is the elite who set the policy and the ideology.
The thoughtful should revisit the rise of the Nazis, for the same thing could happen in the USA.
With mass media, there may arise the "mass man" who responds to iconic figures and cliches, rather than to local and personal issues.
'Mind and Ideology' is an important new book that goes into these matters in detail-
ISBN 9780920282113.
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I thought this blog as about using rage and anger to stir the crowd(mob) against your political opponent. Like Hitler and the fascists did in the 30ties. They were successful, I guess sp and mcant are students of history.
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........ dear new contributors do keep making calm, fresh and reasoned points. As some have noted on Justin's blog site in the last x24 hours there are a number of people involved here who can read, think and weigh points and arguments, well put. It is also good to know that there are a number of US citizens monitoring and using this facility whose views and counter views are respected and appreciated and current deep domestic worries truly sympathised with.
Regrettably, be warned please of an individual who breezes in and out from the *Planet Zog* on here. Let me do the introductions............
This is a person who would have you believe his intellectual horsepower; grasp and raw knowledge is the stuff of legend and not worth wrestling with; one who has deftly dropped in past military service with the Royal Air Force; a work phase in the British Government cabinet office; who was *the* champion of technological direction and telecommunications innovation when an *executive* at British Telecom.........
A person who curiously is based simultaneously on two continents when it suits...... a. within 400m of the Thames and b. *in America*; who casually dropped in his intent to take a third holiday break this year and who proudly sports the, euporium grade, *been everywhere; know everything; my opinion is correct and unassailable and doing very well* badge..... (err, albeit on the basis of repeating it so often and hoping something sticks.
Welcome all to a new breed of cyber blogger - an individual with a consultancy biased work background who is very well versed in converting short client liaisons into his own personal achievements and crediting executive responsibility and achievements to self....... yep, say it often enough and it sort of sticks and becomes believeable in the old cranium...... n,est pas?
Regrettably this one has been rumbled. Would I be alone in perception in thinking that our cyber man, whilst quickfire at Googling, is very probably very much a *low achiever* who actually has minimal career credits; experience of life and domestic happiness to fall back on? Sad really and I genuinely feel for such a profile.
I challenged this person for the number of digits in personal RAF service number which is known by ALL serviceman by heart......
Mmmmm, funny really as JohnAAA evaporated back into cyberspace immediately, thereafter, never to be seen again here using this ID?
Whoops.... then pops up again using vivaelcid and back into action! Of course the failure was thinking that this ID change was a panacea, whereas many of the diligent and mentally agile users on here noted immediately the exact same style of delivery - particulary when our cyber friend was or is getting riled....... touche!
Advice my friend. We know you, as others, are rooting for Sen McCain.... no problems with this at all. Make your points once then kindly butt out and stop treating people here like something that has crawled out of an outside drain - end of. Thank you.
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"I didn't decide to run for President to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in, or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to become President because it had become my ambition to BE President. I was 62 years old when I made the decision and I thought it was my one shot at the prize."
- John McCain, in his own words, on why he ran for President in 2000.
Now, none of us are fool enough to believe McCain (or anyone else in politics) runs for office for purely altruistic reasons - amibition is bound to lie behind their decision at some point.
This being the case, one might look upon the above as perhaps being one of those rare moments when a politician is being refreshingly honest (aka, recognising their amibitions are perhaps beyond their reach).
However, given the depths to which the McCain /Palin campaign has sunk, it's pretty evident that, despite all the other homilies his campaign has spouted about WHY John McCain wants to be President - selfish ambition is STILL the motivating - if not the DRIVING force behind the utterly negative manner in which his campaign is being run.
One could thus speculate that McCain's utter distain for Obama has little to do with race or policies or anything else. Rather, McCain's lack of civility towards his opponent is a demonstration of his anger at the person having the "gall" to stand between McCain and his "prize".
It's an old military (and political) maxim that states "the end justifies the means". It's also a dangerous position to take...but given the above, it could possibly the private campaign slogan within the McCain / Palin camp.
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# 141 - American Son
"Left" also seems to be a label which is used to indicate "otherness" and it is arguable that the concepts of "left" and "right" are becoming blurred.
For example, in Europe both Presidents Sarkozy of France and Merkell of Germany are regarded as being from the right wing, but Americans are inclined to think that all Europe is "socialist". Berlusconi of Italy could never, never be called a socialist.
In the UK, there are left wingers who consider that Gordon Brown has abandoned their cause. Other British people would consider that he governs pragmatically from the centre.
In the UK, a great deal of what Barack Obama says sounds very conservative to us. Yet in the States he is given this "liberal" tag which may owe more to his earning his political colours on the mean streets of Chicago than to his true voting record (especially if you listen to some of the accusations about voting that McCain uses in the debates which contradict Obama's liberal label).
But please, please, do not think that people use this blog because they do not like America. Most people here know, admire and love America. Our lives are closely bound with yours. It is true, however, that many of us feel that Bush - and especially many of the people like Cheney and Bolton who he appointed to high office - have led American values down a highway to nowhere.
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"Assuming from your post ID you are from the UK. I would only suggest that you take a look around your part of the world at the great success of your socialist policies. What's your personal tax rate? How long do you have to wait for a good doctor? What's the price of a liter of fuel? What portion of your income does it take just to put bread and milk on the table? How does your overall standard of living compare with other countries in the world?"
- Ex-congressman
Well, let me - someone who sees "intellectualism" not as some kind of social disease as you imply, sir, but rather a means to better understand the world around me, respond to these charges:
1. Dirct and indirect taxation in the UK actually compare favourably with our neighbours in Europe and also with State and Federal taxation in the USA. While it IS true that left-wing governments in the UK tend to opt for more indirect than direct taxation, overall, there is little variation between "socialist" and "conservate" tax policies when in comes to "middle England".
2. Access to medical care in this country is somewhat flawed, but it is NOT driven on the basis of who can (or cannot) afford medical insurance. Access to GPs is by-and-large easy: you pick up the phone, you make an appointment, you go along to the local surgery. Going direct to Accident and Emergency may take longer, but again, at least you are SEEN by a doctor, rather than having your health insurance checked first to see if you can actually afford the Doctor's time... Within our hospitals, there may well be issues over SOME waiting lists for operations, but again, where a bed is required for emergency issues, rest assured it WILL be found (and I'm speaking from direct personal experience). Again, the availability of a bed is not driven by whether or not a person can AFFORD the bed, as you clearly seem to prefer.
Again, where problems within our National Health Service exist, they are not solely down to "socialist" values - they have been in evidence throughout the last several governments we have had, regardless of which side of the House they originate.
3. Fuel prices here are well above average, but this is not due to "socialism" - it is an historic trend of high fuel taxation that has been very much a policy of BOTH sides of the House.
4 & 5. The UK has been right up there in the top 4 for some time now. As such our standard of living is comparable to that of middle-income USA. Indeed, many of my US friends (from both the East and West coasts and indeed the "flyover" states) who have visited over the last few years have all commented that the standard of living in the UK is somewhat better that the USA in many areas.
True, food costs here ARE higher - but again, that is NOT reflective of "socialist" politics - it is simply a reflection of the fact that we must import many foodstuffs from overseas as we are sadly not blessed with the land in which to cultivate all of our food requirements. The same goes for many luxury goods. Where taxation (import duties) impact these, again, both sides of the House have a role to play, and high duties are NOT the sole preserve of the socialist left.
This country is not without its problems, and yes the current government has been lax in many areas of its governance (ironically, many of them due to the government following your own model, vis legislation around the financial markets, etc.). But please, to try and blame the socialist left for all of the UK's woes shows a clear lack of comprehension on your own part.
And for the record, I AM a centerist in my political views, a I will vote left OR right in accordance to my belief as to which policies may stand this country in better stead.
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141 AmericanSon: "Many conservatives are frustrated because McCain simply is not one of us. Millions of us will vote for him as the lesser of two evils,...
......This is what many people feel is at stake: the very essence of America. "
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I think you have to recognize, based on what you yourself say that the `essence' of America is different things to different people. You do seem to recognize that McCain isn't conservative enough for you yet he is trailing someone who is supposedly to the left of him.
So it looks like your view of the essence of America is in the minority, son. I would suggest moving to Alaska and joining Todd Palin's seccesionist movement.
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# 141 - American Son
I have tried to respond to some of your comments above, but looking again at your post I see you accuse Europeans of "godless blandness".
The Pope still lives in Rome, you know. And Rome, when we last looked is still in Italy. Which is in Europe.
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Most Democrats on this board dont get it. As human beings, we are all entitled to a few indiscretions in life. to suggest that someone can be squeaky clean is ludicrous. the point however, is that as a human being one must acknowledge those indiscretions and make peace with them long before they become a burden to ones ambitions in life.
My point being, i wont have had any problem with Obama if he had long distanced himself from his Pastor, before it became a burden to his blind ambition not to do so. Is Obama suggesting that if he were not running for President, he would not have found his pastors comment offensive? what does that say of him as a person? he worshipped in a church for so long with his family, was aware of his pastors comments and political leanings..he agreed by association with those leanings and comments to further his political career and just suddenly drops it like a hot potatoe when it presents itself has a stumbling block to his aspiration. Are any of you aware of what is referred to as guilty by association?
Obama is not only disloyal to his pastor and church members, he also an opportunist that will readily deny links with anything or anyone in his past that constitute a stumbling block to his blind ambition.
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Justin, anyone who has seen the footage (easily available on the web) of McCain supporters making comments about Obama being a "terrorist", "it's in his bloodline", etc. etc. will find your commentary particularly milquetoast (to borrow an American phrase).
These incidents are making even former McCain supporters such as John Weaver very concerned:
John Weaver, McCain’s former top strategist, said top Republicans have a responsibility to temper this behavior.
“People need to understand, for moral reasons and the protection of our civil society, the differences with Sen. Obama are ideological, based on clear differences on policy and a lack of experience compared to Sen. McCain,” Weaver said. “And from a purely practical political vantage point, please find me a swing voter, an undecided independent, or a torn female voter that finds an angry mob mentality attractive.”
“Sen. Obama is a classic liberal with an outdated economic agenda. We should take that agenda on in a robust manner. As a party we should not and must not stand by as the small amount of haters in our society question whether he is as American as the rest of us. Shame on them and shame on us if we allow this to take hold.”
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ref #97
Remember McCain criticized the Swift Boats for Truth in 2004 on Kerry's war record.
Kerry of course repaid him by not defending him.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Now that Paulson is going to get the Fed to invest in banks, does this mean that the US is going to be a socialist state like the vile, and most foreign, French? And its a Republican President that is going to do it!
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# 145 Zerbleflip
There does seem to me to be a fundamental difference between JohnAAA and Viva.
JohAAA used to take up pages, droning on and on about his obsessions. He struck me as one of the old boys who blogs twice a day to Conservative Home banging on that the Tories are far, far too soft on Europe. He was the archetypal pub bore.
I think our new friend admits somewhere above that he is on his way to bed - which is probably a good thing because he always sounds very tired and emotional when he posts. His messages, mercifully, are short - but it appears that is due to lack of attention span, rather than the lack of a capacity to bore.
Two sides of the same coin but in different manifestations ?
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Beg pardon - I should have written Bill Tyrone in 155.
Sorry if I startled Zerbleflip who doesn't deserve startling after writing two such thoughtful posts.
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So
She was found wanting. Abused her position. Broke ethical law.
And that's only the strat of it ...what would we find if we'd had as long to examine her as Obama. Loads more stories still to drip out.
Now, in any decent, civilised, democratic country she would fall on her sword. Or a quiet word would ensure she did.
But, no this is the rabid, racist, rabble-rousing right wing we are talking about and the Americans love their officials thick and untrustworthy.
Will she go? Ha!
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# 47 et sequelae
I see that somehow another comment has been blocked by the moderators. Perhaps the word "Nazi" is particularly sensitive?
Let us try again.
_____________________________
The public meeting at which hate was overtly expressed toward Obama was simply a public exhibition of what is very common in beer halls in the USA.
The "redneck" population of the USA is numerous (as it may be elsewhere also).
Usually, these common folk are controlled by the elites and their vicious tribal nature
does not control policy.
Nazi Germany was an exception to this, for the elites thought that they could control the Party and the common folk.
They were surprised, for the "mass man" arose who responded to media mapipulation rather than to local and personal economic interests.
A secular religion swept the people.
These phenomena are well-described in a new book, which this set of moderators may not want mentioned.
A similar situation may arise in the USA. The coming election is critical.
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While we wait for the moderator's tea break-
has anyone mentioned the "bad-cop, good-cop" scenario
and the staging of this public meeting?
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138 (eightypercent): How kind. Maybe I'd better start wearing the T-shirt inside out. . .
131 (excongressman)
"Perhaps you don't understand anything about patriotism, serving your country or putting others comfort ahead of your own."
One's country has no right to demand everything. There is much that is higher and better and grander than one's own country. One is patriotic only because one is too small and weak to be cosmopolitan.
(You and a handful of others are quite right. [I mean correct!] There are some forms of patriotism, some ways of serving your country and some styles of putting others' comfort above your own that I most certainly do not understand, nor would ever engage in. Of my own free will or otherwise.)
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159: Yes, me; ages and ages ago.
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138, 80:British
I hope British wears the intellectual label with pride as well: it is the easiest thing in the world to educate an intellectual if cogent and calm reason is used; the difficult art is to educate the ignorant who insist that blind dogmatism is as valid as perceptive analysis.
What surprised me most, however, was the comment by MAII at 81. I never thought I'd have some sympathy for the views of our old friend, but I sense from his comment that the last month, and McCain's conduct, has proved very disheartening for him. I think it is a real measure of the problem McCain has when someone like Marcus can say that Obama has the wrong answers but McCain has no answers at all. Perhaps we will agree about the decline of civilisation over a glass of Leoville Las Cases 1990 after all ...
The only other explanation for McCain's conduct is that he is deliberately, if peversely, trying to destroy the Republican Party from within. Way back at 11 and 12 there were some perceptive comments about the way in which McCain has lost his way. There is one thing he could do, though he won't, and that is say that he is disgusted by his campaign and his party and that he will vote for Obama. At a stroke, he'd redeem his reputation at the cost of losing an election that he looks set to lose anyway.
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Why is the baby killer remark extreme? Perhaps an extreme way of putting it, but if you view the life of an unborn baby as important as any other human being, then that's their view. It's no worse than saying Bush is a war criminal, or that Bush is responsible for the deaths of American soldiers etc etc.
I find it sad that 'views are labeled 'extremist' just because they aren't popular or fashionable.
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ref #37
You will have the right wing equivilents of Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore and Kieth Obrermann
Palin generates the most irrational hate than Obama."
When has Palin been called a terrorist? When has her husband been insulted by a national news channel?
SHE HAS WRONGFULLY ACCUSED OF WANTING TO BAN BOOKS
"Second with the exception of Fox and ABC, the other networks especially NBC and their hate arm MSNBC have been pro Obama for the last 18 months."
Maybe they are right to. What are their news values? Have they ridiculed McCain's wife?
tHEY HAVE rIDICULED HIS WIFE AND THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO REPORT NEWS, THERE IS A SEPERATE AREA FOR OPPINION SHOWS
"Likewise the NYT refused to do investigative articals on Obama but gives front page to an unsubstaiated smear on McCain"
As it is i entitled to do.
NOT ON THE FRONT PAGE THAT AGAIN IS FOR NEWS
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Some of McCain/Palin's invective is inflammatory and dangerous. I found it horrifying that their supporters shout "Kill him" when Obama's name is mentioned. There are lots of unbalanced people out there, and the Republican candidates are sowing some very bad winds...let's hope they don't reap the whirlwind. Whatever happened to the notion that candidates should treat one another with decency and courtesy?
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What attracted me to Obama is his willingness to listen to both sides. His comments on the need to find the middle ground on gun control and abortion go against my own position on these subjects that is clearly more to the left. But what impresses me is his ability to try and find the middle and I will support him for that even though this does take him further to the right than my own personal inclinations. His comments on Israel and Jerusalem went too far, but he realised that. I recognize that no one in the true middle would get elected in the US. It is just so strange to hear these terms, left, liberal, socialist which clearly do not apply either in the US or UK/Europe.
Just for the record I am An Englishman living in North Carolina. With no vote in either USA or UK. But I pay US taxes!
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Anyone hear Justin Webb on "From Our Own Correspondent". His piece described perceptions totally the opposite to his entry at the top of this page. I thought it he was talking about a rally in a different place, but now I've got back home and checked, it was Strongsville that he talked about.
I'm now not just 80% but 100% confused.
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141 (AmericanSon)
The European 'intellectual' (and why 'godless'?) Left has been learning, often extremely painfully, over not just years, but really since 1848, that if it does not continually challenge the Right, individual countries and often the world, generally suffer. And we appear still not to have quite learnt the lesson.
How is it that so few 'godly' Americans do not seem to be able to grasp that many leading (and ordinary) socialists in Britain, for example, have been, and many still are, devout and committed members of the Methodist Church -- in which I was brought up, as one of the last handful of 'Primitive Methodists' (and yes, I've heard the jokes, thank you very much) if you are curious -- for example?
But that is about all the biography you will get from me; it's not otherwise relevant.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
McCain and his campaign team must accept that they started this campaign of hatred and slurs, McCain first by the way he has been towards Barack Obama as a person and then with the attacks in the last week at rally's by both himself and Palin. So the extreme fanatical right of the republicans are in their element to stur up bad felling.
If you read various websites you will find the same republican fanatics throwing insults and being offensive towards anyone who may have an opinion from theirs.
Did McCain and his Team not see what affect being so negative from Hillary Clinton in the nomination race damaged her campaign badly.
I must also say that the BBC coverage tends to lean towards McCain for some reason, they do not highlight such as what is being discussed here and they describe crowds at rally's as being massive when film footage shows they are not that big. Why Justin do you and some of your fellow colleagues feel you have to lean this way?
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#147 zerbleflip
Rock on. I count myself as definitely left-wing, but your defence of our country/system is one I would use myself.
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#34 british-ish
Thanks for that, but I feel you should have pointed out that the Daily Mail is not just right leaning it also apparently has an Editorial motto. 'Never knowingly tell the truth, a lie will always sell more papers' As a serious source of information it rates slightly less than your National Inquirer and that's being unfair to the NI.
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are my comments being censored? that will be grossly unfair.
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Justin,
Let's talk about the big elephant in the room. The reason why McCain's supporters are angry at Obama is because their worst fear looks as though it could come to fruition: A black man becoming President of the United States.
You see, in the beginning when Obama announced that he was running for President, most of white America (and indeed some African-Americans), saw it as a whimsical pipedream. Many of the white people who initially saw him as a "nice guy", are the same people who are now castigating him. You see, it's ok to be a "nice guy" when you appear to have no realistic chance of winning the presidency, but when the idea of being president becomes more seemingly tangible, you tend to elicit the reactions from pockets of white America we are now seeing.
Understand that the ire expressed by some members of the U.S. military towards Obama, has nothing to do with military issues (how could it, Obama was against the war), but has everything to do with colour and there's no hiding it.
During the primaries, we had Hillary bombarding Obama with a plethora of spurious smears, none of which managed to tarnish his campaign. John McCain has again, tried the same tactic to no avail, and is at the point where his campaign is quite frankly, in tatters. Need I even mention the most pathetic political appointment in U.S. history in the guise of Sarah Palin?
The sad indictment towards America is that in 2008, pockets of white America continue to judge a person not by the content of their character, but by the colour of their skin. Absolutely woeful.
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#46 meminmk
Don't be too superior it could be your country next
#47 stevenmhsf01
Very well put and you have the thoughts and hopes of those of us who are your real friends behind you. We (the world) need a sane and well led USA please don't get it wrong.
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#57 clueduprock
I would disagree, it sounds much more like Munich circa 1930's to me.
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147
One might add a few other things.
1. One consequence of higher fuel prices (caused by deliberate taxation to encourage fuel economy) is that there is a decent public transport system, albeit imperfect.
2. I've never had to worry about health care insurance, or who is my health care provider in my life. It does not matter where I am, the service is provided and, in my experience, promptly.
3. A loaf of bread and a pint of milk (and I am reasonably but not very well-paid) requires less than 0.05% of my monthly income after tax; if I buy artisan bread that figure is a little higher but still below 0.08%. By and large, however, I prefer wine, coffee, or tea to milk (and I don't add milk to my coffee). On the other hand, I can also buy decent cheese (eg. Stilton, or dolcelatte) at a reasonable price (c. $3.50 for a decent chunk); so if we were to put the question as what does a decent loaf of bread, a reasonable bottle of wine, and a chunk of decent cheese cost, the answer would be 'less than in the US' by a factor of about a third: it is not such a bad life, one just has to work out what to eat, and generally the options are healthier in the UK.
4. A lot of the US is not rich: look at places like Lubbock (and yes, I've been there), or Gary, or Athens. In fact, the last I saw, the average GDP per head was now higher in the UK than the US, though that may have again changed with recent shifts in the exchange rate: what is undeniably true is that income inequality in the US is far greater, so the bottom half of the scale are, on average, much poorer in the US than in the UK.
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They especially despise him because he is winning. And Palin has ethical problems as proven by the Troopergate report.
Palin abused power for personal vendetta
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As human beings, we are all entitled to a few indiscretions in life. to suggest that someone can be squeaky clean is ludicrous. the point however, is that as a human being one must acknowledge those indiscretions and make peace with them long before they become a burden to ones ambitions in life. My point being, i wont have had any problem with Obama if he had long distanced himself from his Pastor, before it became a burden to his blind ambition not to do so. Is Obama suggesting that if he were not running for President, he would not have found his pastors comment offensive? what does that say of him as a person? he worshipped in a church for so long with his family, was aware of his pastors comments and political leanings..he agreed by association with those leanings and comments to further his political career and just suddenly drops it like a hot potatoe when it presents itself has a stumbling block to his aspiration. Are any of you aware of what is referred to as guilty by association?
The only way the democrats and their supporters can win the forthcoming us election is to deflect objective criticism of Obamas character by accusing observers like us of being red necks. My question to you all is simple. Are all the accusations against Obama fact or fiction? Did he know and have relations with Rezko, Ayers, ACORN, wright & co or not? When did he deny those relationships and severe ties with them, was it a long time ago or more recently? Why did he severe ties with the aforementioned group, was it because a) they hurt his political ambition or b) he honestly wanted to, ambition or not?
As for those of you that ignorantly refer to me as a racist and redneck, BREAKING NEWS! I am a black African, a Nigerian to be precise. However unlike most of you, I have not let my emotions get the best of me because of the prospect of Obama being the 1st black president in US history. I had rather settle for a competent person with a track record., A stable person who wont deny existing ties at a whim because they hurt is inordinate ambition.
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#103 vivaelcid
If that is what the real US is all about no wonder you are in trouble.
To take just one point out of the long outpouring a drivel in #101 - excongressman
The democrats have pushed through the funding of the Iraq War. That's spinning so fast it's makes my eyes water. As I understand it the Democrats have been trying to curtail the war for the past two years and have been called unpatriotic and worse for doing so.
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# 174 Ezekiel.
Whilst I agree with your theme, I am a bit worried by what you say about the military.
I understand that the McCain team e-mailed members of the military (probably including vets as well) and they published the results of those who responded. Those who didn't respond may have had a different tale to tell.
Remember the pressure that was put on Colin Powell to stand for president - as a Republican ?
I live in a famous and historic garrison town in the UK where the black members of our military are hugely admired - if it can happen in this particular town it can happen anywhere.
Arguably, the reason why Germany has a reputation of friendliness towards African Americans is because they had so many G.I.'s based there since 1945 - and they came to know them as fine members of society.
The military response that you have seen may be based more along party than racial lines.
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#126 vivaelcid
You are an adult????? I wonder
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Ref 158
"The "redneck" population of the USA is numerous (as it may be elsewhere also)."
As I am sure you already know, the USA ranks Nr. 17 in the world in high school dropouts, a distinction that most Americans deplore.
I think it is important to note that when it comes to the outcome of elections that segment of our population is renowned for their political ambivalence. They do, however, let their opinions known in ways that are sometimes a bit embarrassing, but not necessarily representative of the opinion and values of most Americans. Race and social issues are typically the deciding factors for them, although rising unemployment may influence the decision of those that decide to vote this time.
The segments of our society that will be interesting to watch this election year are the African-American and senior citizens. A high "Hispanic" turnout would not mean much as that happens to be a very fragmented block that includes Democratic leaning Puerto Ricans, staunch Republican Cuban-Americans, and a large Mexican American population that tends to be fairly conservative in Texas and liberal in California.
The ACORN fiasco notwithstanding, it seems obvious that are population is energized, focused on the issues, and very concerned with the way things are going. I expect a record turnout this election year.
When it comes to our candidates, make no mistake both share the same basic ideology and are determined to defend the security and interest of the USA. Where they part ways is in the approach to solve our problems.
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# 176
Your concern with the analogy to Munich in 1930 is apposite.
Since Americans know little of history and do not know what ideology is, they may not realize what is at stake for the experiment that is their country.
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~177 Mark
Good points, but it does bring to mind (and I probably misquote)
"A loaf of bread, a bottle of wine, and thou beneath me ...."
Trawl of the Oxford pubs energising then ?
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#131 excongressman
Assuming from your post ID you are from the UK. I would only suggest that you take a look around your part of the world at the great success of your socialist policies. What's your personal tax rate? How long do you have to wait for a good doctor? What's the price of a liter of fuel? What portion of your income does it take just to put bread and milk on the table? How does your overall standard of living compare with other countries in the world?
Taking this bit by bit.
My personal tax rate relates to my income and gets higher as I earn more. We don't tax the poor to death while giving tax breaks to the very rich
Re doctor it just depends on the ailment if it's erious probably the next day. The point is that we all get treatment not just the 80 per cent who can afford it. And that if we are out of work, old or chronically sick we still get treatment.
The price of a litre of fuel is currently £1.30 that's about $9 per gallon. I've done the conversion because I know how much problem you guys get doing it. The point is though that we can still afford to run our cars and our motor industry isn't going broke. Maybe if you handn't been behaving as though it would last for ever you wouldn't be in so much trouble now.
this question about bread and milk I'll treat with the contempt it deserves.
Your last point is really interesting. Define 'standard of living' please. I have seen many surveys which have shown that the average American middle class person now works 10 hours a week longer to maintain tha same standard of living as he would have ahd in the 1970's
excongressman, if you really are one, I can see why the US is in so much trouble. Your grasp of the world outside of your own is very poor indeed. All you have served up is the same old junk about Europe, health care etc.
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I sat and cried as I watched the hate filled McCain town hall meeting...We have a chance to have an inspiring ,intelligent President and all McCain/Palin want to do is tear him down... so sad!!
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Ref 101
"Anger with Obama for his reluctance to discuss what he really stands for, where his financial backing is coming from and his beating all around the bush but never touching a leaf on it."
Obama has been articulating his vision, values, and proposals for well over a year, and his political platform is available on the Internet for everyone to see. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much he elaborates on it, those that oppose him, for reasons that have little to do with domestic or foreign policy matters, will continue to dismiss them without taking the time to analyze them. I do admit, however, that he should improve his message when it comes to offering a clear blueprint of his approach to solve the current fiscal and economic crises.
Frankly, what bothers me the most is the focus on what Bush has done, most of us don't need any reminders, and the constant criticisms of McCain's voting record on certain issues; and McCain's innuendo and attempts to portray Obama as a terrorist sympathizer, a Muslim or radical Christian, and a man whose cultural background is, for some reason, unacceptable to mainstream America.
What most of us want to hear is specifics - at a high level - on how each of these gentlemen plan to tackle the problems that are destroying our way of life and threaten our national and personal security.
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Ref 187
"I sat and cried as I watched the hate filled McCain town hall meeting...We have a chance to have an inspiring ,intelligent President and all McCain/Palin want to do is tear him down... so sad!!"
I think it is important to give credit when credit is due. McCain stopped the hate consumed crowd yesterday - twice - and assured them that Obama is a worthy opponent and is not a person anyone should be afraid of. It restored the respect I had for his moderate and bypartisan record, as it took a look of courage and integrity to do what he did when he is trailing in the polls.
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I am an exiled Brit living in the United States, and there’s one thing people in Europe need to know about America and democracy here. U.S. Citizens are quick to espouse the greatness of America (leader of the free world and all that), especially the greatness of its democratic system. But what it fails to see is that truly great democracy is predicated on the fact that the people are both reasonably educated and well informed, and in far too many places and people in this vast land, that is not the case.
Only yesterday we saw a woman in Wisconsin tell John McCain that she was scared of Barack Obama because he was “an Arab,” a charge, the senator from Arizona was of course forced to dispel. And that is why so many republicans hate Obama in a way that democrats don’t hate McCain. Ask them why they are scared of, or hate Obama, and you get answers like, because he’s a baby killer, because he’s going to take away our guns, because he’s a Muslim, a terrorist, a Muslim-terrorist, elite, his ex-preacher is a racist, anti-American or, as I heard from a woman in Virginia earlier this week, he’s one of them (black) and will only look after his own. I understand that human nature makes us scared of change, but ignorance will do far more damage, and what we are seeing here is the legacy or eight horrific years of Bush and Cheney’s idealism that if you’re not with us, you’re against us.
I consider myself a political independent yet will vote democrat this time around. But I can have a beer with a republican, for I don’t see them as the enemy, just my fellow human beings who share a different political philosophy than me. But far too many ill-informed republicans have been taught to hate, and hate with a passion, anything and anybody that is different to them. Is it any wonder that America is in such dire straits right now and that republicans hate Obama more than the opposition hates John McCain? And that’s why it is truly frightening if McCain gets to the White House, because of the type of people who will have put him there.
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The comedy shows seem to have seized upon McCain's 'wanderings' during the debate
Wanderlust
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185, 80:
This is the season for such fresh autumnal fruits ;) I'm off to go wild berry picking in the lingering sun.
186, Tim
Have a look at the posts that zerble and I left as well (147, 177).
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Now that Paulson is going to get the Fed to invest in banks, does this mean that the US is going to be a socialist state? And its a Republican President that is going to do it! Who said Americans don't understand irony?
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175 Timothy
Not sure what I said was said in a "superior" manner. Confused yes. Sad yes.
And the reference was not to all Americans, a number of whom are good friends. And trips to the USA have always been more postive than the impression we get from (American) TV.
But the "moral majority", who as the old joke goes and we know are neither, are particularly vociferous, noticed and repellent.
Here in the UK we do not have the same thing. A few "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" types of course. But I guess our sub-class are those on sink estates who do not get involved in any politics and seek only to hope the benefits keep rolling in to fund the fags, booze and tattoos. They probably veer toward the racist in most cases too.
But no rabble rousing populist types at elections stirring things up. Our politicans are only capable of stirring up apathy.
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Here in Philadelphia, Obama noted McCain's efforts to stem the hatred
Obama in Philadelphia
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# 193
Spot on Dceilar ! This is socialism in the way that the word has been bandied about as a term of abuse in the last few days.
Other people might say that it is an economic necessity if the dollar is going to be saved.
Take your pick !
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"Now that Paulson is going to get the Fed to invest in banks, does this mean that the US is going to be a socialist state? And its a Republican President that is going to do it! Who said Americans don't understand irony?"
Actually some critics are using that very language! Some argue that the market should be allowed to find its own level, and the bail out is socialism. I kid you not.
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Seems my comment 194 is being held up in the Censor's office.
Mr censor - British here! When we say fag we mean cigarettes, not ......!
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My impression is that very liberal Democrats despise Sarah Palin as much, if not more, than very conservative Republicans despise Barack Obama. This has been evident in the media's unflattering coverage of her candidacy. Obama's inexperience is portrayed as making "change" and "hope" (whatever this means) possible, while Palin is viewed as an ignorant hick who's worthless simply because she's not a part of the Washington establishment.
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I agree with most pundits that the economy is the focus, but so also should be the person you elect to take care of THE ECONOMY. That is why I am so amused that Obama should even be in the reckoning. In my opinion this is emotions run amok. It is a standard rule of thumb that during tough times, you look up to tried and trusted hands to steer the ship of state. You don’t elect a novice with absolutely no track record to any position of authority during tough times, you elect tough people that have proven themselves.
Its sad that the American public have opted to cut off their noses to spite their faces. I know that there is a lot of resentment against Bush, but to elect Obama?? Please!!! I am from Nigeria and we are presently saddled with an inexperienced and incompetent President .Believe me, my country is in a state of flux and regret. Just recently, our president travelled to Saudi Arabia for medical treatment ( under the pretext of going for the lesser hajj ) and abdicated governance for over 2 weeks, without even deeming it fit to inform the populace. The whole country was at a standstill during those 2 weeks. My point being that during the 2 weeks of drama, the truth emerged from the local media, that when our president was the governor of Katsina state ( one of our 36 states ), he would disappear for months at times to attend to his health, thus leaving the state in limbo during the entire time. Sadly none of these was known to the electorate as at the time of ‘electing’ him president. We elected an unknown neophyte, and sadly we are currently paying the price with his gross incompetence.
NEVER ELECT A NEOPHYTE DURING TOUGH TIMES. ITS AN ECONOMIC, SOCIAL, AND POLITICAL SUICIDE!
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#192 MarkfromOxford
Yes Mark I saw them, a little more articulate and better researched than mine I must say. I do hope, however, that excongressman gets the point.
In my view one of the greatest problems the US faces is this non stop ever repeated mantra of 'we are the greatest, followed by democracy, military power, economy blah blah blah. It's a great self deception and blinds them to the very real advantages of other systems and ways of doing things.
An example, in France where I live they take six months to elect the President, no more than that. Each candidate can only spend $2m or thereabouts. They start the vote at six in the morning and within 20 minutes of the polling booths closing they announce the result. All that with no voting machines and the person chosen to be President is the one with the greatest number of votes not by some arcane electoral college.
The US has many great strengths but it is not the greatest anything in the world.
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Obama is a socialist who does not believe in the founding principles of the US. He has many long term relationships with individuals (Wright, Pfleger, Farrakhan, Ayers, Khalidi, Rezko) -a who's who of anti-American clergy, racists, terrorists & criminals. He has a deep socialist academic/work background. Yet this info has been largely unreported by the news media. That is why there is great anger. He is America's Hugo Chavez.
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175 Timothy
Wasn't being rude, I did reply!
But Mr censor seems to have held in back. It was placatory but I can't be bothered to try it again.
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Cindy McCain kept and profited from her and her father's Keating partnership long after the scandal
Keating 5 fallout
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No matter who wins, this election is not going to end well. Neither candidate is going to be accepted as legitimate.
In a way it's sad: After all these years, we finally got 2 great candidates for office and we are descending into hatred. But in a way it's good: This anger is something that has been boiling in America for years and it needs to be worked out, sooner rather than later.
Let's be frank -- and I am an Obama supporter -- for most Americans, having a non-white person telling them what to do is a big adjustment. So I can understand some of the discomfort.
McCain was quick to note that Obama is not an Arab, but he never did say that being an Arab was a bad thing or that many of America's staunchest allies are Arabs. I guess we'll have to cross that bridge in a future election.
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# 190
I, too, see the prevalence of hate and ignorance in America.
A bulletin board in Georgia is the pulse that I feel.
The political activities of Mr. Land of the Southern Baptist Conference also give concern.
America's moment of truth and its future will be decided within a month.
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Seems to me like the censor gone for a 'T' break yet again. Come on Justin, get a grip
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Ref 193
"Now that Paulson is going to get the Fed to invest in banks, does this mean that the US is going to be a socialist state?"
It is becoming increasingly evident that the USA is moving towards a wester-European form of socialism in an effort to prevent the meltdown of our capitalist system. The irony is that while the Republican rank and file continue to accuse Obama of socialist leanings, it is a Republican Administration that is actually crafting and championing the adoption of a Central Bank concept and the creation of a government-sponsored real estate institution that dwarfs those in Western Europe.
One of the most interesting aspects of politics is the duplicity and cynicism of the assertions made by politicians and the contrast between their rhetoric and their actions. Frankly, I am not sure the general public understands the dichotomy between their beliefs and the policies espoused by the parties they belong to.
Similar contradictions - or expressions of supine ignorance - can be found in statements such as the one made by a woman at a McCain rally yesterday who accused Obama of being an "Arab". The fact that Arabs are Semitic, and that Obama is the son of a white woman and a black man from Kenya did not prevent her from making that ignorant charge in public. I suspect she meant Muslim, which to many radicals means Arabs. Needless to say, I doubt that woman is aware of the ethnic differences between Arabs, Persians, Pakistanis, etc. That's the crowd that the Bush Administration has been using to achieve its goals.
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#203 meminmk
No problem. They've censored me as well today. I wrote a comment about the Daily Mail and that got canned.
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Republicans have in the past despised all Democrats to the extreme ever since Bill Clinton was elected. This has been the case in the last 4 elections. This election and the Republican rhetoric is no different and no more extreme than the last 4. Their views and policies generally reflect and benefit a very loud minority. Unfortunately, the Democrats in the past have not been very good at generating interest in a very diverse group of supporters that make up the majority of people in the US.
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The racist dogs are on the street cos the Republicans is implodin' and th'aint nothin' they can do 'bout it. When the goin' gets tough the Right gets nasty and when it looks like they gonn lose they likely turn on each other. Bring it on, we want more o' this desperation ya hear, then it's possible that calmer, no drama Obama could win by a goddamn landslide and put them rednecks and neocon tax dodgers out of power for a looooong time. Christmas might surely come early this year.
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Apparently McCain is starting to reign people in: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] With warmth: -John PS - I'm voting for Obama.
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It will turn out that the Palin/McCain ticket will lose the next election for Obama. Palin is a corrupt, feckless politician who has achieved a modicum of political influence then let her husband attempt to strong-arm government officials into doing his bidding. Can you imagine this individual being the 'first gentleman' if Palin ever took the highest office? McCain is an old man in a rush whose poor judgement over Palin and over his attempts to turn this election into a personal battle are coming home to roost. By calling Obama a "decent man" and by saying that the election was about issues (as if) he's basically undone all their 'good work' this week and will look pretty foolish if he tries any more personal attacks on Obama.
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I still think John McCain is a decent guy, but he's in the middle of a Republican campaign for president, and as such is surrounded by dozens of cut-throat, unprincipled, uber-partisan operatives who are determined to win at any cost. They don't care about McCain's reputation, they just want the prize.
Don't confuse "The McCain team" or "McCain supporters" with "John McCain" - I think it is the real John McCain who was trying to reign in his supporters by defending his opponent yesterday.
Of course he has the nominal veto over the actions his campaign takes in his name, and he has to verbally endorse any advertisement his team makes, but when you are in a losing campaign and everyone around you is telling you that you can win but you have to do exactly what they tell you to do, it is a difficult path to resist.
Such judgements are exactly what voters should be looking for in their potential President - no-one governs on their own, the question is who do you listen to when things go wrong. Would you not rather have a well-counselled neophyte than someone who visibly panicks when things are not going their way?
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All the GOP supporter rantings that have been posted throughout this blog warning of the dangers of socialism, specifically government hand outs for the less fortunate all appear to come from republicans with decent jobs (post earlier from excongressmen).
So, are there any republicans that can't afford healthcare and still think it's a good idea that the government doesn't help them??
Saying "socialism" is a big scary monster is all well and good if you can afford to ignore the poverty suffered by your fellow countrymen.
Surely that's really unpatriotic? If you sign up for the army you are considered a true patriot but try to help the most vunerable in society and you become a vilified "socialist".
I'm starting to like that word - socialist. Sounds like a horror film title.
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Some of you have commented on the extreme
measures being taken by the Treasury right now.
As far as real estate holdings, this has been
done twice before that I am aware of - once
in the 30's under Roosevelt, and again in
the 90's under Clinton.
Paulson and Bernanke are both familiar with
the causes of the Great Depression, and are
anxious not to repeat the mistakes which were
made then.
As for partial government ownership of the banks,
the government is essentially taking on the role
of J.P. Morgan when he did the same thing
with railroads and other companies in the late
1800's. Today, there is no individual or company
which can do this, so the government has to
do the same thing. Otherwise, we will continue
to have a "confidence crisis" between banks so
that none of them will lend to each other,
regardless of how much liquidity they each have.
This inter-bank lending process appears to be
important somehow for the banking system to
work. Perhaps it has something to do with
creation of an efficient market for money?
Someone who is more expert than I on these
matters could perhaps verify or refute these
conclusions.
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"It must be uncomfortable to be a Southerner right now, especially a Southerner for Obama."
You aren't paying attention. Obama is ahead in North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia, and he is closing the gap here in Georgia. If he carries any one of those states, or Pennsylvania....and he's bound to carry at least one if not more than one of them...it'll be because the "rednecks" voted for him in droves.
I must say there's some pretty hardcore classism going on here in these comments. "Redneck" is code for "working class," people. Y'all need to look in the mirror before you start accusing other people of isms and ignorance.
I do think there's a racist edge to what is going on right now, but it didn't come out of nowhere. It's just the logical progression of the hateful rhetoric that conservatives in this country have been using for a long while now. They may despise Obama in a way that Democrats don't despise McCain, but it's all of a piece with their attitude towards either Clinton, Gore, or Kerry. It's not new, it's just the same old Republican hate-cake with some racism frosting.
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There is also, of course, the very valid point that most of those screaming SOCIALIST the loudest and the longest wouldn't know a socialist if one jumped up and bit them.
Just before anyone starts I must point out that most of the socialists I know are vegetarians and/or pacifists and wouldn't bite anybody.
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ref #184
I love it when I hear posters like you criticize america's knowledge of history.
From what I have observed Americans are far more knowledgible than Europeans on the subject. And as far as the Middle East with the exception of Israel they are particularly lacking in knowledge.
They actually think that Israel was the agressor in 48, 67,73
they also think the Nabka is real.
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Re: #92, allmymarbles:
"It must be uncomfortable to be a Southerner right now, especially a Southerner for Obama."
In a word, yes.
I'm a Southerner for Obama, and an atheist, too. I'm a foreigner in my native land. Uncomfortable doesn't even start to describe it sometimes.
It's sad to see the rants of people like excongressman who try to turn "intellectual" into a dirty word, as though being educated were a character flaw, or thinking beyond vacuous talking points treasonous.
I wish excongressman and those of his ilk would read some history books. The Founding Fathers they so venerate were borne of a period called the Enlightenment, intellectuals who were highly educated and well-read. In fact, one could go so far as to call the Founding Fathers a band of liberal elitists hellbent on putting their lofty ideas of change into practice. The haze of centuries puts the treasonous actions of these men on the right side of history, but their speeches and writings were nonetheless subversive against the core values of the British Empire.
But you call Obama a dangerous radical? Why, because he wants to offer all Americans affordable health coverage? I can almost hear Jefferson laughing now.
Remember that it was fiercely radical intellectuals who created the United States, excongrassman--not the conservatives who clung to the Crown.
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I know that Europeans don't understand this
American fear of Socialism, but there are reasons
why this fear is common here.
The main one is that our government does not
seem to work very well. It's a lot easier to make
something like the NHS work in a (relatively)
small country like the UK or France than in the
USA.
On the other hand, the private health care system
has basically collapsed here for large segments
of the population, so something new has to be
done. But, it probably won't look like the NHS.
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Both sides should call for the vigourous prosecution of ACORN.
This is a conspiracy of wide spread voter fraud from an orginization that represent sthe worst in America.
Obama supporters you should be concerned because they will be a percentage of people who will regard an Obama Presidency as very dangerous and this will add fuel to the fire.
As some who had to listen to nuts like Maxine Waters and Barbara Boxer object to the 2004 results, thatt will be minor compared to the evidence already avaiable in regard to ACORN
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Using fear as a political weapon is the first step any dictatorsip uses to generate it's power. That's what's happening to America. It has a chance to stop it now and stop it it must before any sense of democracy is lost. If McCain doesn't put a stop to this now things could get very ugly very quickly. Focus on your own positives and why America needs them. If they aren't good enough to win well that's democracy.
By the way a colleague told me the other day ' I could never vote for someone with the middle name Hussein'. Irrational fear is only just below the surface for many Americans. I worry that some do not see just how pivotal this election is to the future course of the USA and what this history books will eventually write.
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#219 MagicKirin
Magic before I go any further it's good to see you back. This blog would have been boring without you.
We were broadly discussing the overall thread of this post before you tried to hijack it back to your usual subject.
I agree Israel wasn't the aggressor in 1948 because it didn't exist. The aggressor was a group of Israeli terrorist cells, The Stern Gang, the Irgun, to name but two and an armed militia the Hagnah which had been formed by the British who were then the mandated governing power in the area known as Palestine.
Now can we please go back to the subject at hand. There have been some very interesting posts today and I, for one, have learned a lot.
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just to quote MagicKirin:
"Americans are far more knowledgible"
well put.
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Kirin, what's your take on the voter fraud in 2000 that Bush used to steal the whitehouse?
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there are those in america who take comfort in a vision of thei scountry as form the twentth centry persosptive.
the world and times and indeed America has changed . The America they are looking for is the one of the last century not the twenty- first.
Same solutions and same approaches will no longer work .
its frightening to many as they do not understand the world as it is today.
Hard as it may be to some , change is inevitable .
The anger at the change is misdirected as it usually is . if we look for the culprits who have done profound damage to this nation we need to look no farther than the current administration .
Oddly ,we have just accepted the lack of leadership from the curret administration and are angry at what we do not undersatnd .
Obama represents that unknown for many a African American man in a very diverse American society which is no longer the stereotpe of strong rural economy " small town america "with a protestant ethic and a monochrome population
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#215 gunsandreligion
Small country like the UK and France, Hmmh as the lady said 'size doesn't matter'
To be serious, no don't go the NHS route. It's bureaucratic top heavy with management and unwieldy. As a UK national but a resident of France I would recommend serious study of the French system it is essentially private enterprise overseen and funded by the state. Most of the services are provided by private companies, doctors, laboratories, and ambulances. The socialist end of it is the funding arrangement where everyone contributes essentially according to their means.
Hey it works, it's rated as being one of the best health services in the world.
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#190...well said...BTW...I was a frequent supporter of the Middleburg bonfire of the vanities fox hunt crowd in simpatico with the UK...IWLA member?
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#229
Quoi?
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#230..Quoi?...The Isaac Walton League of America...fishing, nature, wetlands and conservation enthusiasts...Oh, we also own guns and tend to hunt for pleasure, the table and not for sport…there is no sport in simple killing…at least that’s the credo handed down to me and my kind…we disdain sport killing or hunting…
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ref #226
In answer to your question:
1. That Chads were a stupid a way to count votes and you can blame the Florida elections commission.
2. That the Democratic dominated Florida Supreme Court abused their authority and tried to give the elction to Gore
3. The U.S Republican dominated Supreme Court overuled them.
4. Gore blew the campaign which his supporters refused to admidt.
Now a question for you, do you support the prosection of ACORN for voter fraud?
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I thought the comment showwed on the BBC news was bad enough, some sour faced woman saying B O wasn't an American.
I think the use of slack, loose language by SP doesn't help at these rallies, "he pals around with terrorists" etc.
BO is doing well to keep above this level of debate.
The Republicans must be desperate, the world economy is going down the toilet and this is the best that they can offer?
Neither candidate impresses me much, which is sad as the scale of the task facing the winner is daunting.
Hillary, prior to her "misremembering" nonsense would have been a much better bet. The times call for someone who can hit the streets running.
I agree that most of the people we see featured at these rallies are harking back to an America and a world that no longer exists.
But we do need to impose some good old-fashioned economics. I've talked to several people in banking these last few days and they say that most good banks were taken over by retail wide boys who swept away good sound banking practice and anyone who supported it.
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I think you should show the videos and demonstrate the kind of people who support McCain and hate Obama. Put a face on this seething hatred.
Maybe this is like the '60's...when they finally started showing some of the overt racism and abuse of blacks in the south...it wasn't until the beatings were shown on primetime TV that people started getting involved en masse.
Hiding it "for taste" doesn't help. Show that truth...that ugly, ugly truth.
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#231
Thanks. Issac was an interesting man I think I have 'The Compleat Angler' somewhere.
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#126. vivaelcid: "I live in the USA and I have no idea who "John" is. Some imaginary friend of yours perhaps ?"
In the thread Debate Expectations, at #317, you wrote "I'm actually an Englishman who saw the writing on the wall years ago."
You (mis)punctuate like JohnAAA, with a gap between the last letter and the question mark. so all the indications are that you are he. Tell us where you actually live in the USA so that we can get a handle on you - you know from previous posts that I live in Los Angeles (not in gated community as you had supposed) and that allmymarbles lives in New York, so your own location would be of interest.
#132. "Oh, the sad snobbery of the British."
Just listen to yourself - you're one of them.
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One poster mentioned a "working class" in America. Such a reference is unique. The practice to call workers "middle class".
"Redneck" originally implied those who burned their necks bending over under the sun in the fields.
Today, it refers to attitudes and a way of expressing oneself. Thus, a congressman or governor (who never worked) can be a "redneck".
___________________
Starting a redneck quiz:
(Does your pickup truck have a bumper sticker that says: "America, love it or leave it!")
Can you define "liberal"? If not, do you hate them anyway?
Do you you know what a "humanist" is? Do you hate them anyway?
etc.
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#235. I've been to the 'Complete
Angler'...I'll have to go back to my diaries but I think it is somewhere NW of Hensley on Thames...
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232. At 5:57pm on 11 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #226
In answer to your question:
1. That Chads were a stupid a way to count votes and you can blame the Florida elections commission.
Republican appointed and dominated by a repoublican win at all costs machine.
2. That the Democratic dominated Florida Supreme Court abused their authority and tried to give the elction to Gore
No they ruled in favour of the candidate that won the most votes
3. The U.S Republican dominated Supreme Court overuled them.
Republican stacked court overruled the voters in one of the most open, and serious, frauds in recent US politics
4. Gore blew the campaign which his supporters refused to admidt.
Since he won the election t it is hard to see how he "blwe2 the cmapign.
Like most Americans he expected the Supreme Court to perform a honestly.
"Now a question for you, do you support the prosection of ACORN for voter fraud?"
Anyone should be prosecuted for attempting to subvert democracy - regardless of their politics - you do agree.
Such as the Florida authorities who unaccountably turned away a large no. of coloured voters in traditional southern style in 2000.
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Do republican see theirselves as losers? I wonder why are not campaigning,but attacking.Well maybe they have seen that they have come to the end of the road.
Democrats are busy making waves for democracts,Republican are busy making ways for democrats(unknowingly to them).
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"236. At 6:16pm on 11 Oct 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
#126. vivaelcid: "I live in the USA and I have no idea who "John" is. Some imaginary friend of yours perhaps ?"
In the thread Debate Expectations, at #317, you wrote "I'm actually an Englishman who saw the writing on the wall years ago."
You (mis)punctuate like JohnAAA, with a gap between the last letter and the question mark. so all the indications are that you are he. Tell us where you actually live in the USA so that we can get a handle on you - you know from previous posts that I live in Los Angeles (not in gated community as you had supposed) and that allmymarbles lives in New York, so your own location would be of interest.
#132. "Oh, the sad snobbery of the British."
Just listen to yourself - you're one of them. "
I think this character is a school child. At one stage he claimed to have invented the idea of privatisation and to have served in the RAF.
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222. At 5:10pm on 11 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
Both sides should call for the vigourous prosecution of ACORN.
This is a conspiracy of wide spread voter fraud from an orginization that represent sthe worst in America.
More than the KKK
"Obama supporters you should be concerned because they will be a percentage of people who will regard an Obama Presidency as very dangerous and this will add fuel to the fire."
What does this sinister remark mean?
Do you accept the constitution and democracy?
"As some who had to listen to nuts like Maxine Waters and Barbara Boxer object to the 2004 results, thatt will be minor compared to the evidence already avaiable in regard to ACORN"
Whatever it looks like Obama will be president, do you accept democracy?
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#234, Carolynnie, I think that the BBC is somewhat
reserved when it comes to showing the undesirable
social aspects of the US, since they are a foreign
news organization.
Nonetheless, it would be helpful if someone could
provide a clearer picture of how widespread this
kind of behavior has become, and the US news
organizations should be doing that job.
To echo what lawchicago wrote in #227, the
US reached its apex of social cohesion in the
decades immediately after WWII. Since then,
income distribution has become progressively
less egalitarian due to the disappearance of
factory jobs which had provided a mechanism
of upward social mobility for people of all races.
We've reached a low point here and the middle
class is scared and has lost its trust in politicians
of both parties to represent them on economic
and related issues.
In a way, it would be ironic if someone like Palin
was the one who got in and had to tell the middle
class that the past is gone and will not come back.
Of the four candidates on both tickets, she is
the only one who can really relate to the middle
class, regardless of how the Democrats attempt
to promote Biden.
I'm not a Palin fan, but perhaps her very obvious
flaws are the traits that would be necessary for
someone to lead the middle class through the
changes which will inevitably occur over the
next decade or so.
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219. At 4:55pm on 11 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #184
I love it when I hear posters like you criticize america's knowledge of history.
From what I have observed Americans are far more knowledgible than Europeans on the subject. And as far as the Middle East with the exception of Israel they are particularly lacking in knowledge."
Well sionce you have no knowledge of US an or ME history a how are you to judge?
"They actually think that Israel was the agressor in 48, 67,73"
So does Israel incidently, that only leaves far-right fanatics
they also think the Nabka is real."
Wheras you do not beleive the Palesitnians evn exist.
Presumably you do not beleive in WWII either.
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#238 Marlow on Thames. Nice Pub, well hotel. It is spelt Compleat honestly that's the truth. I love this spelling bit, this blog seems a bit confused it picks up on learnt and wants learned and it has just picked up on spelt and wants spelled.
'Two nations divided by a common language,' Churchill I believe
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I am a naturalized Brit, so I know what I am talking about regarding the realities of the USA. The vitriol spewing from the right wing rabble is an extreme example of projection of the shadow. We all project onto others that which we dislike within ourselves. Insecure people need to belong to something, anything. Part of life’s journey is about learning to be comfortable alone and apart from the group, and also to, eventually, become whole, warts and all.
The very people who have racist views often support their favorite sports team which may contain many people of color. This is rationalized because the players are ultimately pawns or tools in the game of winning.
I am white and my daughter is married to a young black skinned Puerto Rican. He is a wonderful man and his skin color has no bearing on my feelings towards him. I am difficult to pigeon hole politically, I am conservative, in as much as I want good disciplined school systems, accountability, and consequences for illegal behavior. I am against illegal immigration. I believe in compassionate conservatism, which some label socialism. I want a national health system, legal structure set up for the financial markets and banks.
The rich should be taxed at a higher rate, and I’d limit the disparity between the wealthiest head of a company and the lowest paid to a ratio of about 50:1. Help and assistance to find jobs, no indefinite hand outs for the poor and especially none for the rich.
Conservative, especially with natural resources and profligacy, liberal with my care for the country, for peace and for wisdom. Who has the most potential to realize these values? Barack Obama and Joe Biden plus their chosen cadre of advisers. I just hope I’m not wrong.
PS Homework assignment for all republicans: What was the collective government debt created since 1980 by a: Republican Presidents, and b: Democratic Presidents?
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John McCain started something he can't finish by has inciteing the lynch mob down here in Dixie. I should'nt be amazed but I really am at all the crazies that have come out of the closet recently. These are people are regular Americans but at a rally they become rabid, screaming "kill him" and "terrorist". Last night I saw a camera phone recording on MSNBC with people screaming those very words while waiting in line to get in to a McCain Palin rally in my home Georgia(I think it was GA).
Allowing Sarah Palin and McCain approved negative ads to set the tone for his campaign in the last weeks has backfired. I see this little game that he is playing...very obvious. He is good cop and she is bad cop. Sarah incites the crowd with lies, and insinuations and then kindly John McCain tells crowd turned angry mob to respect Obama. Really he can't have it both ways. Sen. McCain's surrogates and ads have implied that BO is unAmerican, dangerous, risky. "What do we know about Barack Hussein Obama" Sarah Palin asked this week at a rally. I though what a set of this woman has on her. She may be mentally retarded but she is hardwired with chuzpah. What the f do we know about you Sarah? Obama has been campaigning for nearly two years people do know him unless they've been on Mars. He is no more dangerous than she is Ivy League.
The fact that McCain has now publicly defended Obama makes him seem( if possible) weaker like he does'nt know whats being siad at these rallies or simply cannot rein in Sarah Palin and his campaign. When BO made his now famous guns and religion comment about allowing bitterness to creep in he was talking about times like these. Job loss, foreclosure,being eviction, losing pensions and 401k's, living out of your car is something that Americans are dealing with at an alarming rate. People need a scapegoat, a person to release all that anger, fear and pent up hostlity on and Palin has shown them the way to the lowest common denominator.
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Xie_Ming
I am a sixth generation Georgian and a tenth generation Southerner. I was born and raised here, and have lived in Georgia all my life. My brother is a construction worker and my uncle and cousins are truck drivers.
I personally have fixed my own car with duct tape. If that's not a redneck stunt, I don't know what is.
Do not presume to lecture me about what "redneck" really means or what Americans say or do. You don't know what you are talking about.
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Justin, the angry folks you are speaking with are really supporters of Gov. Palin, not Senator McCain. They really hope the Republican ticket will be elected and McCain will obligingly drop dead.
I am losing respect for my Senator. Who hijacked my Senator and whoever it is, bring him back!
That is the scary part. The Democrats come over as the rational ones, the Republicans as the angry ones. If this keep up, how are we going to pull together for the common good after November 4th? We have too much of a national mess to be that divided now.
I'm so disgusted I am going to visit my buddy in the hospital now. He has a great sense of humor. I will have more fun doing that.
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I really respected McCain as a patriot and decent man but he'll do anything to win and I can't respect that. I don't know about the reaction from Arizonians or people from others parts of the country but with the history of the southern unrest and violence it is actually dangerous (to use a popular McCain word) to stir up racial tension.
There are people across the racial/class spectrum who support BO because of his positive message and promise of economic change so despite this fringe of people that really hate him he is clearly winning "hearts and minds" to use a bushism.
ManyBlacks have been afraid for his safety from day one and in whispered conversations we have been fearing what everyone is seeing now. Its good that the unspoken thing has come into the open and people are being honest about their feelings. People have said their is no racism in the US that time is behind us. Really? I believe that Obama will win but hopefully the country will be better as a result of the current media discussion.
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i feel that Justin is so pro republican that the balance of reporting is compromised, does anyone else agree.
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#247, christianleft, wouldn't it be ironic if the
people who were already out of work were planning
to vote for Obama, and the ones who are still
afraid of losing their jobs and homes were the
ones supporting Palin?
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ref #244
As usual Simon you are Simple Simon
Israel was not the agressor in any of those conflicts. Non PC history tells you that.
I said the Nbaka is not real because that day should be celebrated as a victory against the vicious Arab armies.
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American Son.
141
Listen er mate!
I'm a yank have been from birth, even dumb nuff to defend america back in the 90's and before against peoples constant attacks that yanks are like Jerry Springer guests etc.
But then I moved here, and low(yes low) and behold america at it's finest.
"Millions of us will vote for him as the lesser of two evils, but it will not be a happy vote."
two evils?
you got one guy who wants to bomb bomb bomb , doesn't know the difference between a joke and being offensive(something I take great pride in) mc cain and jokes
A guy who puts a barbie on the ticket like GM put girls on the hood at the motor show.
What exactly mr I'm no racist son of america,
has obama said that is soooo offensive compared to mc cain and A paling.
or did he just say it in a "dark" way
kid yourself but your argument is based on.
Why vote for a black guy.
You really think socialism as you call it would be the end of america.
To me the end is when Putin says on TV 'American capitalism is finished" and the world thinks"he's got it right".
When A guy trying to better america gets lambasted for being black by people who can never say it.
Yes I cry racism again,may not be intentional but your fears are bull all dems are sociallist to some extent.
but EVIL?
by the way if america gets changed good.
Because you are an embarrassment to america, and I say that as an american.
Many Americans are better than you son of sam.
keep lying to yourself.
If you think the Dems and Obama have lied to you more than Mc Criminal and his A paling VP choice then you are looking to hard.
And I doubt it is the socialism that bothers you.
But live in your dream world, until it collapses
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Both sides should call for the vigourous prosecution of ACORN.
This is a conspiracy of wide spread voter fraud from an orginization that represent sthe worst in America.
More than the KKK
(here is the difference almost everyone one on both side of the political spectrum abhors the KKK. Remmeber I am jewish and they hate us as muchas African Americans)
(Acorn has not been condemned by the Obama campaign)
"Obama supporters you should be concerned because they will be a percentage of people who will regard an Obama Presidency as very dangerous and this will add fuel to the fire."
What does this sinister remark mean?
(It's not sinister it's pointing out a fact)
Do you accept the constitution and democracy?
(I always have but Maxine Waters doesn't, she refused to accept GWB as President)
"As some who had to listen to nuts like Maxine Waters and Barbara Boxer object to the 2004 results, thatt will be minor compared to the evidence already avaiable in regard to ACORN"
Whatever it looks like Obama will be president, do you accept democracy?
(O'h I've even acknowledged that it's very likely and I sincerly hope I am wrong in my evaluation but I saw disaster Jimmy Carter would be and I see a similar naive world view from Obama)
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Of course there is always the following (and I think some might have alluded to this already)
Republican rally. Crowd is controlled, worked up. The organisers let a few stooges say a few words, just enough to filter into a few consciousnesses (Obama is an Arab ..... don't trust .....not American ........ terrorist)
And then Mr Mccain can appear squeaky clean by gently chiding people not to talk like that.
But, and there's the rub Horatio, the words and smears have already got out there. And because of Mr M's intervention they are all the more newsworthy, guaranteeing a far wider audience than they had previously.
A double whammy.
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97.
It would appear that no one intervened. McCain merely lapsed into humanity, unfortunately temporarily.
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#251. faoneill: "i feel that Justin is so pro republican that the balance of reporting is compromised, does anyone else agree."
Not this one; he was long considered to be pro-Obama and the current attitude is merely a swing of the pendulum to make it, in the words of Fox News, "fair and balanced".
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re 101
if the good folk of the US really want to let their banks go down the toilet just to spite the execs who have been running them and paying themselves barrowloads of mullah, well just goes to show that public knowledge of practical economics in the US is just fine
101 belongs in Room 101
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108, excongressman.
Being an excongressman does not make you impartial, in fact, quite the reverse. By extension, being an exserviceman does not mean you speak for all servicemen, and being an exlunatic does not mean you speak for all lunatics.
In case you haven't noticed, many on this blog are highly educated and intelligent, and specialized in a variety of disciplines. So don't try to bamboozle us. We are not bamboozleable.
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its violent hate mongers like the ones at these rallies that defines the right wing in the eyes of many. intolerant, angry, and violent.
Mccains campaign has pulled them out of the woodwork where they were hiding with his reckless campaign.
This makes me doubt his ability to lead as a president because although he tries to denounce these hate mongers, at his rallies, he is still pandering to them and the tone of his ads encourage them.
he only makes himself look weaker and disingenuous
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Simon,
ref your friend Mr Kirin (isn't that a japanese beer?)
Didn't you get told when you were younger that you don't engage in a battle of wits with someone who has no ammo
And meanwhile back on something approximating to the theme (and I am quite catholic here)
A history of electoral fraud in the USA or
How do we re-bottle the genie or
How does Mccain go under with dignity
Discuss.
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253, ubermensch.
Here we go again - Israeli=good, Arab=bad. Don't you realize how ridiculous you sound?
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Sarah Palin's position is becoming untenable. She has grave charges to answer. With leess than three weeks to go for the Presidential elections, Americans are unhappy that Palin has tried to be economic with the truth! One wonders what she would be like if she were to be entrusted with the VP's job. Fortunately her chances are extremely slim.
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as for palin and her abuse of power charge, its no surprise that laws wernt broken but if she pulled a stunt like that in the VP office she would open herself up for impeachment and law suits. possibly she will be impeached in alaska as well.
think of it this way: if you are a boss, and you sleep with your secretary, then after the relationship is over you fire her, its not illegal but its an abuse of power and grounds for your own dismissal.
mccain is asking the question 'who is barack obama'
mccain campaign is throwing stones while living in a glass hut. who is this palin?what more is out ther about her?
*sigh*
worst campaign ever.
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Justin just how long have some of US been telling you this.
right from the start when MRS CLINTON started all this race baiting double speak.
It was Hillary that started this and opened the doors for McCAin to carry on.
Shame on Hillary and shame on the rest of you suckers that have been playing along with it, all the while saying "in the interest of not being bias" .
When it was convenient, for your dreams to see hillary on the ticket, you all went along with the first baby steps and now you wonder how it got so violent.
"My colleagues on the BBC's US TV news programme (World News America) decided not to use the clip on grounds of taste, and because it seemed to suggest that opponents of Obama always had such extreme views."
this is real good. All along you have portrayed Obama in a manner that has been seen by some of us as racist. But no not you, not the bbc.
Go back through the titles and postings of your blog.
remember ,"should Obama Be Hillary's VP"
when he had just won?
and you took it . Always negative never possitive.
Now we hear " well I cannot trust him"
If the press had done their job and not Stuck between the parties we would all be better off.
The middle is not always right for Journalists.
Sometimes you have to call a racist as you see it.
UNLESS of course your a tad racist yourself and do not understand.Like Justin and Matt
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Non PC history
you prefer fantasy history of a jerkin and a mostly erroneous fool?
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Remmeber I am jewish
lest you let us forget
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scamis if your ever rednecking around oregon stop in.
I got some duct tape.
This may be a class war where no one knows what class is,At least no GOP supporter who STILL votes GOP.they certainly have no understanding of class.
Seriously working Joe is not the problem.it is a bunch of retired voters that are going to get Mc CAin in. they are the rednecks.
If you vote Dem you can't be red, right?
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One of the posters asked why some voters "despise" Obama. I don't despise him, but I feel a lot of resentment - towards the Democratic Party and people who voted for him - because I don't think he is qualified to be president. Obama has no record of accomplishment while in office. Period. On the subject of gender - a woman with his lack of accomplishments would not be the nominee. On the subject of race - a white man with his non-record would not be the nominee. Obama has given some good speeches (written by others), but his speaking style at the two debates was wooden at best.
I particularly resent the fact that Obama's handlers have promoted him as a mix of ML King, JF Kennedy, and Jesus all rolled into one.
What I don't like about the man Obama is his snide, condescending style, and his assumption (which turned out to be true) that Americans are stupid enough to buy "Change" slogan w/o giving much thought to what change or how the change would come about. Since I was not an Obama supporter from the beginning, I cannot say that I feel 'betrayed', but during the campaign, Obama has shown that he is as much of a politician as any of the other candidates in the race.
I always have voted for the Democratic ticket, but this year, I don't think that either Obama or McCain would make a good president. This year I will be voting for a 3rd party candidate.
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Are the Republicans just waking up to reality? It may be too late to turn the tide now. One thing they should know is that it's always a risky business when you have a maverick at the healm of affairs, the choice of Palin as a running mate was a sole decision of a maverick. It's too late to cry when the head is off. Obama is in the race to win, why should they be angry with him, or do they think that the Democrats are fools for selecting him as their candidate? Go back to your drawing table and see how the situation could be salvaged!
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220. southernfriedheathen
Yo, SFH, by your own admiision your an athiest, kinda like the Empire when those Treasonist Christian Radicals took the Colonies away from England, don't think 'your' that type of intellectual.
222. MagicKirin wrote:
"Both sides should call for the vigourous prosecution of ACORN." Yes or should I say; "Hear, hear"
LawChicago
I would go even further and say we need to go back for three administrations, set the events in motion, we need to where and when they went wrong
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One woman says something stupid at one campaign rally and suddenly the whole "Campaign" is racist
from Vivaignorance
and you think it's not??
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ref #263
Lost your Marbles
1. I noticed no answer about prosecuting ACORN.
2. From what I've seen you think Israel=Bad, Plaestinians= good
Maybe you should look in the mirror.
Facts are Egypt and Israel made peace
Israel and Jordan made peace.
Israel generously gives territory Palestinian thugs fire missles.
I'm just honest.
The Palestinians don't deserve a homeland untill they prove to the world they are ready to be civilized.
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I've lived in this country all my life. I grew up and spent most of my time in the Northeast. Recently I moved to the Southeast. The fact is that the "angry" people that have been popping up at McCain/Palin rallies are quite generously distributed across the U.S. They are the something-less-than-fifty percent of the electorate whose thinking I no longer pretend to understand. And yes, I too sense palpable echos of the "politics of national destruction" that overcame Germany in the '30s (and, perhaps, Russia in the 20's). Having said that, the present economic crisis seems to be changing some minds. That's resulting in a different kind of anger, one that echos Sen. Obama's, "Enough!" on the last night of the convention -- one that might yet galvanize that other something-less-than-fifty percent to come out and vote to save this country.
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97. At 07:05am on 11 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
I watched a portion of a speech by McCain today. He was saying nice things about Obama and people were booing him for saying them. Yet McCain persisted and even corrected a woman when she called Obama an Arab.
Is this another two-faced act by McCain, or has he been warned not to foment hatred? It will be interesting to see what happens. If he does cut back on his racial attacks then either sensible people in his own party, or some government agency, may have intervened--------
-------------------------------------------
Marble it seem to me that If mcCAin is trying to be a good guy now it is too late.
He has already let the cat out of the bag,and he's not a good enough soldier, leader or cat catcher to get it back in.
Oh maybe back to the Humpty Dumpty description of him.
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255, ubermensch.
"Remmeber I am jewish"
So what? Is this supposed to confer immunity when you say something stupid, illogical, or racist?
(check your spelling and capitalization)
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#245...That's it...Marlow on Thames...been there...have wonderful photos from across the bridge...and the swans...Thank you so much for the memories....Been to Henley so many times I can't remember...and Bisley is a favorite as well...have the patch but have never shot there...have wonderful pics of me in front of Kennedy's gun shop the Army and RAF gun club houses and the London and Middlesex Rifle Assoc club/pub...
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270
I always have voted for the Democratic ticket, but this year, I don't think that either Obama or McCain would make a good president. This year I will be voting for a 3rd party candidate.
go search your conscience dear, if you have one?
No more experience than Carter?
Your a liar.
you never voted dem or your a racist, either way your a liar.
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274 no your a racist zionist
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274, ubermensch.
Your own words condemn you. "The Palestinians don't deserve a homeland untill they prove to the world they are ready to be civilized."
Israeli=good, Arab=bad, Israeli=ubermensch, Arab=untermensch.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When I read the opening sentence of Justin's Blog I was gob smacked. Then I thought, maybe he's just exercising his irony. This commentary, to give it a polite name, is full of Democrat vitriol. One could equally pose the reverse question: Why do Democrats hate
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ref #277
No lost
It means that someone who is Jewish or African American is going to appreciate the vile hate the KKK represents than most others.
The KKK, Nazis, the Islamic Facists and ANSWER are all part of the same type of intolerant hate!!
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270. At 8:06pm on 11 Oct 2008, rionorigel :
I agree about Obama's acomplishments(or lack of) and McCain had a valid argument regarding his experience. BUt McCains 'genius' campaign negated his point on experience by hiring sarah palin.
Now we all worry that Mccain wont make it through his first term, so if he does not, his VP will take over, and currently that person is palin.
SHe is so inexperienced she cant even define the role of a VP. SHe posess little knowledge about the constitution and she doesnt even want to answer questions about the issues(avoiding non-partisan interviews). Because she doesnt know the answer.
I hear a lot of talk about her executive experience in alaska as governor, but she has been a governor for just 2 years and thats NOT enough time to judge if she is a good executive or bad (even bush was popular after 2 years). nobody knows what will be the state of affairs in alaska after she serves her first term.
this election is really between obama for president or palin.
there are many anti-obamas out there which was working in McCains favour but he scared them away by picking his own celebrity candidate, now there are just as many skeptics of the McCain ticket as there is about theObama ticket.
*sigh*
worst campaign ever.
i honestly believe that if McCain had selected a conservative experienced candidate(even one of the women of the republican congress or senate) he would have won this election easily.
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They are angry with Obama because they are bad loosers!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
These are horrible times and as such, it's important to assume nothing and state the obvious; there are many racists in America, and the majority of them are Republicans. They hate Obama because they detest the idea of an African-American president. However, I believe that Senator McCain himself does not want to be President. A moderate, he hates the Right Wing of his own party, loathes having to choose a nut case like Ms. Palin, and would rather enjoy his final years in peace. Yet if he had refused his party's nomination, he would have been ostracized and derailed; so what else could he do but let the GOP fascists run all the negative campaign ads and play along. He is, after all, a politician, not a statesman. I loved his "gaff" last night in defending Obama; what a situation to find oneself in! After months of demonizing his opponent, he had to call off the shaggy dogs who are, after all, his constituency. Naturally they feel betrayed and confused, because they were only spewing the shallow lies and devious half-truths which they had learned from...the McCain campaign. Yet before signing off, I would like to again state the obvious: Republicans with few exceptions are ignorant, manipulated and badly-educated fools who find themselves in a tattered, shattered world of their own making. Worse for them, the less-than-idiotic public has had a belly-full of their ilk, and will vote the change which will discredit their beliefs, creeds and prejudices. And it's about time...
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#283. OhNeverMind: "When I read the opening sentence of Justin's Blog I was gob smacked . . . This commentary, to give it a polite name, is full of Democrat vitriol."
Another Brit commenting on things of which he or she has little knowledge; "gob smacked" is the give-away, which is never used in the USA. Even though it has entered the British vernacular, it remains a vulgarism; not a verb either Lady Thatcher or David Cameron would employ.
As for vitriol, it is the Republicans who are the guilty party, calling Mr Obama names and making accusations which are barely printable. Mrs Palin may have tempered her remarks in the last forty-eight hours, but she must take a large part of the blame for the descent of her party into the gutter.
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The republican outpouring of rascist agression to Obama is symptomatic of the problems in American society. This is a country that is deeply divided and so out of touch with the rest of the world. It is critical to the whole world and the US that Obama wins; the alternative is potentially catastrophic.
We cannot allow rascist rednecks to hijack yet another election.
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and more negative press regarding McCains smear campaign:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/10/AR2008101002456.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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I hope they keep at it.
Just the scary, angry, greedy face of the Rebublican party's grass roots showing it's true colors.
The voices of their cause in the likes of Limbaugh etc. are calling for more of it.
Look at a poll map. Where's McCain still ahead? Boy howdy 'shucks you betcha, it's redneckland. The cowboy west and the former Confederate States of America.
The more they shout about Hussein the terrorist the more the middle, who decide these things, will run, not walk away from them. It's irrational and ignorant, and would be funny if it wasn't so serious.
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Majerk 284
Does that list include AIPAC.
I agree with marbles you have shown nothing but hate for all Arab and Palestinians, and someone saying they want to defend themselves if they are attacked by Israel is offensive to you.
You are as bad as those you hate, I 'm not sure how you can finish shaving in the morning.
You Hate all people that think anything critical of Israel.
Yet you never move there to show your support.
You Claim to be the Victim but act like the aggressor.
You have advocated the pre-emptive strike against people because they "may at some time in the future get the ability to hurt Israel.
(who already has the same ability.)
Man your a disgrace to America and Israel.
and not many in Israel would put up with you.
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Sorry" You're a disgrace"
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Keeping up with things.
Obama leads in the national polls by 7.6 points (average of 9 polls taken from 10/4 to 10/10).
Intrade odds: Obama. 78.2; McCain, 22.7.
Poor McCain. He can't even get a rise out of racism. That restores my faith.
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ref #287
So for having the courage to call a terrorist a terrorist which the Palestinian leadership has almost always been; I lack empathy.
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#4
Your statement about a riot breaking out at a McCain/Palin rally is a little over the top don't you think.
I would love to make a bet with you that I could walk into one wearing an Obama T-shirt and even a mask and no violence would take place. The only thing we take more serious than our politics is our first AMD. right.
You want to talk about insane violence, ever been to a British soccer game?
I dare you to walk into the crowd wearing the other teams T-shirt!
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286. At 8:40pm on 11 Oct 2008, jaybee2412 wrote:
They are angry with Obama because they are bad loosers!
to add they are also bad winners, they are bad.
Repubs this is like when someone says" you're being stupid"
It is your present actions and direction that makes you "bad" not your past.
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The Republicans are not making the presidential campagne easier for Senator Mc Cain by all this hatred towards Obama. One can easily see that their anger is deep rooted in their racist believe that an African America is not to be regarded as a true American. If not why should n't they trust Obama. They should realise that Senator Mc Cain is a very decent man who believes that every american should be treated in the same way no matter their ethnic background. They should also know that they are becoming an embarassement him. I am really impressed by Senator Mc Cain boldness in defending Obama by telling the racist fools in the Republican Party that their assertions about Obama were wrong, that the man is decent enough to rule America.
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If the outcome of the so called troopergate was already pre determined , meaning that Gov Palin acted within her remit and can dismiss anyone she feels unsuitable did not go against legislation or break any laws there could be NO ACTION taken against nor was there.
The only conclusion therefore that anyone can come to is that this was to harm her at this point in the campaign and assist the Obama campaign.
Any informed person knew no action against her was possible and had there been rest assured it would have been given the unprecedented vitriol raged agaist her by the liberal left wing media, as we continue to witness.
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I'm brand new to BBC News blog.
A disinchanted U.S. citizen.
I signed on specifically to state an oppinion regarding the U.S. election.
The polls have Obama ahead by 4 points. I firmly believe that people being polled are fearful or embarrased to say that they support Obama.
My prediction is that once a person is in the voting booth, they will vote what they honestly believe to be in the best interest of themselves and thier family which is NOT McCain.
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GM and chrysler in talks?
does that mean we will end up with one US car maker.
Wow this really is looking like communism.
All the choice as long as it's red
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OI MODS PUT THAT POST OF MARBLES BACK UP.THERE WAS NOTHING OFFENSIVE IN IT.287
OR IN THE INTEREST OF BEING BIAS ARE YOU OBLIGED TO STRIKE TRUTH FROM THESE COMMENTS.
STRIKE THAT POST AND STRIKE ALL OF MAJERKINS BECAUSE THEY NEVER EVEN GET CLOSE TO TALKING AMERICA.
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I SECOND marbles comment.
287. At 8:46pm on 11 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
284, ubermensch.
Sorry, kiddo, I don't buy it. I don't see empathy in your hatred of the Arabs.
What makes you think you are different from the KKK? What makes you think you are different from the Nazis? They excelled in hate, as do you.
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296, ubermensch.
"So for having the courage to call a terrorist a terrorist which the Palestinian leadership has almost always been; I lack empathy."
Defining people as terrorists to validate your hatried of them is not courage, but hypocracy and cowardice.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
297. At 9:12pm on 11 Oct 2008, Yankeefreedom76 wrote:
#4
Your statement about a riot breaking out at a McCain/Palin rally is a little over the top don't you think.
I would love to make a bet with you that I could walk into one wearing an Obama T-shirt and even a mask and no violence would take place. The only thing we take more serious than our politics is our first AMD. right.
You want to talk about insane violence, ever been to a British soccer game?
I dare you to walk into the crowd wearing the other teams T-shirt!
-----------------------------------------------
I dare you.Double dare!
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And 297 american 76
was that when you were born?
To compare a election campaign with footee is a joke right?
Better comparison would be a cockfight, or something.
Now Parliament can sometimes seem like that but not like a Nuremberg Rally which is what you GOPers are trying to imitate.
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299. At 9:30pm on 11 Oct 2008, jaybee2412 wrote:
but really I think Mc cain should step down and say he will not run on a racist ticket.
as for his somewhat late responce to the racists, it is too late.
retire, make a point, but get lost that is all I would have to say to him.
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272.
"Yo, SFH, by your own admiision your an athiest, kinda like the Empire when those Treasonist Christian Radicals took the Colonies away from England, don't think 'your' that type of intellectual."
I think you're missing a few apostrophes in there, so bear with me if I've mistaken your meaning.
Are you suggesting the Founding Fathers were Christian radicals? If so, that's simply untrue. The religious leanings of the framers of the Constitution ran the gamut from Christian to deist. Even those who were Christian recognized the importance of the separation of church and state, and vigorously upheld that standard. Even the Christians in the bunch valued education and intellectualism, unlike the current crop of anti-intellectuals running rampant in the GOP, who so perversely embrace ignorance and mediocrity.
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#278 chitlins
Magikirin
At least when you write something off topic can you please make it something pleasant like the post I have mentioned above. Please leave out this nasty racist Israeli good Palestinian bad rubbish. We are trying to talk about the most important election the US has had for many years and you are just a nuisance
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Super Bush hater
Thats the only hate worth it, but remember unless he pulls a cheney in the last few weeks it is the Criminal and his(BBC MODS criminal because he has tried to incite riots.)doll that are the problem.
Here in Eugene a protester agaist county pesticide spraying was arrested for incitement to riot because he said I have the right to protest.No one rioted but still he is charged.
but in presidential politics there is no riot provoking
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#301...I agree. I'm retired military and the other day I took a military.com presidential poll. I was shocked at the results that showed over 71% of respondents indicated they were for McCain. I can only imagine a couple of reasons. First, the polls are tracked by ultra-conservative groups like Free Republic who systematically call out their subscribers to "Freep" the Internet polls. In other words, they mean nothing. Second, there is apparently a remaining military-macho mindset that prevents those with no real courage to speak their minds for fear of retaliation. So much for freedom of speech. Regardless, the only way this conservative who intends to vote for Obama sees him failing to win is him failing to show up for inauguration...
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59 rev blues
funny picture. now in the UK it would be assumed that the little girl showing her two fingers would be in the act of making a rude signal.
is the same true here, in the states?
I think so.
See Palin associates with people that make rude signs in public, she is evil.
Ok thats no proof but she is.
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I find all of you American hating Euros that have turned "Hating America" into an art, or more of a "sport", to be quite funny.
I have been studying you for a while now. Not just here on BBC, (which so far seems to be the tamest).
I read a lot of on-line papers from Europe, The "Scotsman.com" especially. I can tell you what the persons view about a story written about America is going to be just by reading the name of the person who posted their opinion. It's become a little game with me. And I always have to laugh!
Because I'm always right.
You people don't have a fair bone in your body. (I don't mean everyone, only the people I just described).
Your opinions aren't from someone with a fair and open mind. Your opinions are derived from pure hatred, to jealousy, to your preconceived ideas of what Americans are. You're literally obsessed with us. You hate us but you scour over everything written about us and then jump right in there to spit your venom at us. You know who you are. You'll be the only ones to respond to this post..lol. Look at the way you follow our elections. It makes the headlines in your countries more than your own elections. (those of you that have them).
You really need to get over it and get a life. All of that pent up hatred is only going to cause a heart attack for you. Then who would I have to laugh at?
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Ref 275
Generalizations seldom reflect reality. Most Republicans do not behave the way a few do in the rallies we have been seeing on TV. My two best friends are Republican. One is a fiscal conservative, the other is a social conservative. When we get together we usually have some very animated discussions about politics, but when we set that subject aside there is little difference between what is truly important to all of us. I would also like to mention that I have never heard them insult or threaten anyone because of their beliefs.
Most Americans are not extremists, but centrists and to a great degree are fairly ambivalent to politics. Needless to say, our current fiscal and economic crises, rising unemployment, and other domestic and international problems have made most of us very aware of our political and socio-economic situation in ways that were not apparent in previous elections.
Unfortunately, the focus on negativism in the Palin rallies and statements by GOP surrogates have inflamed passions, which coupled with a feeling that they lost the election and may lose more seats in Congress, is bringing out the worst out of some people. Needless to say, negative campaigning is not a GOP exclusive, the Dems have done their share of it as well.
As for racism, I would like to note that the most blatant example of that despicable attribute that I have seen live next door to me, and they are not Southeners. Ironically, I see a better, or as a minimum a more respectful relationship between people of color and Anglo-Saxons in many cities in the South than I have in the Northeast.
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Oh dear they've gone for 'T' again
Moderators that is
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Why do Americans use "Socialist" as an insult? On this side of the pond, it's the name of the second largest grouping in the Europian Parliament. It's not a political leaning I share, but it's obvious that a lot of people here in Europe do, that includes many of us Brits. Personally I'm more of a classical (laissez-faire) liberal, and thus have no political party to represent me.
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Oh well, can't wait any longer must go to bed. Much to do in the morning. I hope you find a way to keep Magic on topic but won't hold my breath.
PS did like the Kirin being a Japanese beer though and as a thought:-
The Japanese stock markets reeled with the news that the Origami Bank had folded.
Good night.
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#297 yankeefreedom, british soccer fans? i dare u to walk in to an eagles game in philli wearing a giants or worst...cowboys jersey. then let me know how that turns out for u!
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#296. MagicKirin: "So for having the courage to call a terrorist a terrorist which the Palestinian leadership has almost always been; I lack empathy."
Have you ever studied, even briefly, the creation of Israel and the terrorism which begat it? As Alice (in Wonderland) was told, "Start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop." I suggest that you follow that advice.
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# 287 et sequelae
To see a racist, institutionalized and indoctrinated ethno-religious hatred in today's world, visit Israel.
Note especially the Orthodox who control the politics and the knitted skullcaps from the separate school system who permeate their civil service.
Even Einstein (who reused to be President of Israel) noted the Nazi views of the Prime Minister there.
Daniel Barehboeim, Tanya RTeinhardt and other have moved away from Israel in disgust with the policies of the government.
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Ref 310
Southern, for whateveer is worth, I second your conclusion.
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ref #311
If you read my original post you would realize that all the Marbles and JackForge started the threrad.
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One poster mentioned a "working class" in America. Such a reference is unique. The general practice is to call workers "middle class".
Alternatively, some used to say "blue collar worker".
"Redneck" originally implied those who burned their necks bending over under the sun in the fields.
Today, it refers to attitudes and a way of expressing oneself. Thus, a congressman or governor (who never worked) can be a "redneck".
___________________
Starting a redneck quiz:
(Does your pickup truck have a bumper sticker that says: "America, love it or leave it!")
Can you define "liberal"? If not, do you hate them anyway?
Do you you know what a "humanist" is? Do you hate them anyway?
Have you never lived outside your native area? Do you still claim to know all about your whole country?
Were you told that Puritans believed in religious liberty?
Do you stand when Dixie is played?
Are you retired? And yet do you have strong ideas about strong action to set things right?
[Please continue this list... there are rednecks in Alaska, too, so we need a thorough quiz]
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ref #301
Intersting
There has always been a theory the other way, that proclaimed Obama supoorts just don't want to be labeled racists.
We do have several posters who do it here.
But you could be right, though from my perspective as a self employed person who pays far too much fed and state taxes, Obama's economic policies won't benefit me.
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This election should be about judgement, Obama's good judgement for not supporting the illegal attack on Iraq. McCain's poor judgment for supporting Bush, his poor judgement for admiring Reagan, one of the worst Presidents the USA has ever had, who was culpable for the slaughter of thousands of Latin Americans and his poor judgement for choosing a female Forrest Gump as his VP running mate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#131. excongressman: "My ancestor's fled England prior to the establishment of the Thirteen Colonies. The leader of that party was a minister who was fed up with the heavy handedness of the ruling party and was seeking a chance to make something of himself and provide a better standard of living for his family."
I don't want to see this country dissolve into that socialistic morass that he left."
There was no such thing as political socialism in England in the sixteen or seventeen hundreds. Religious intolerance was the cause, not politics.
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Magigkirin and others of his ilk firmly believe that the world is black and white. You're right or your wrong, your with us or against us, our side is good the other side is evil. In his mind any tactic to attack the Democrats is fair but any reciprocation is unprincipaled/sleazy, likewise israel can do no wrong and the Palestinians can do no right.
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#316 dominickvilla,
southerns are just generally more respectful than nor-easterners :) lol.
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#308 Jackforge,
As to your question about my name,
" Yankeefreedom76"
No. The 76 does not represent the year I was born. It represents the year my country was born..1776.
Sorry if shortening it baffled you, I just assumed most people would know history at least enough to know what that means.
No joke about the comparison of a political rally to a "footie". My point was, if you guys act like animals at something as meaningless as a "footie", imagine how you must act about something like "who's going to run your country".
And to refer to us "GOPer's" as Nazi's, well my friend, your just showing us all how intolerant you are (Nazi like) to those who think differently than you, and your ignorance is surpassed only by your hatred.
You know, your really tarnishing my view of you Euro's who like to see yourselves as the tolerant, without sin, intellectual giants that you always try to portray yourselves to us Yanks.
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Applause to John McCain. Now that the Palin scandal is out, the candidacy is sunk (well, I certainly hope so, I must admit), and McCain has now decided, with his navy background, to try and conduct a dignified abandonment of the ship.
The repugnant attacks on Obama were inevitable, and of course it's what you expect in politics, but McCain can see that it's gone too far, and that his honorable reputation is at stake. He prefers to save that reputation, rather than be a president representing a coalition built on hate.
Of course the Republican machine will carry on launching these attacks, but for me McCain has at least succeeded in distancing himself from the most distasteful elements. He was never going to be able to keep that evil genie in the bottle, and if anything a more right-wing candidate would surely have been worse. If he succeeds in controlling the conflagration on the extreme right, history will judge him kindly.
Historically, we would all no doubt be a lot better off if he'd been the outgoing president rather than a candidate this time, but that's another long story.
One last thought, however - I saw an interesting analysis on MSNBC, by some professor or other, harking back to 1968 (the last truly ground-shaking US election), and Hubert Humphrey's last-minute attempt to shake off the burden of LBJ's legacy. Apparently it nearly worked. Check it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1968
The guy seemed to reckon that a similar road is now McCain's best bet. He probably won't win like that, but he will salvage something.
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Alright, I skipped the previous 330 comments. I have a political science degree and have worked for two governors here.
Reagan did a bang up job at mobilizing the religious right to vote R - they were already ticked at Ds for passing the Civil Rights Act.
Now, the party is owned by some seriously right-wing fundamentalists who have NO interest in rational thought. Listen to Palin, who ignorantly claimed a gas pipeline was "God's will."
How does she know? The fact is that she is so clueless, she has no idea why governments need to operate in a secular fashion with religious tolerance.
Right now, all the crazed zealots on the right vote irrespective of fiscal policy, because they are owned by fundamentalist wackos more concerned about abortion that our economic stability.
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By the way, Justin, my apologies. I just noticed that you're focusing on the McCain campaign just now. That explains why I thought you'd joined the Lean McCain column.
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#300 Observer,
When was the last time you saw the fans of two different teams of football, baseball, basketball, hockey, or any sport in America, run out in the field like Attila the Hun attacking the Romans in a fight to the death!
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Re 315 Yankeefreedom76
We europeans (and i am proud to consider myself so) don't hate americans (i'm generalising, but this is my belief)
However, we are ever conscious that you have held a considerable amount of military and economic power since 1945, and therefore cannot be ignored in the affairs of the world
Alongside this we have to consider the effect that your economic and military (and cultural) power is having on world affairs as these factors influence lives across the globe
We are all familiar with the notion that USA often presents itself as the leader of the free world...in which case it is not unreasonable for the rest of the world to hold high expectations of our leaders
Your nation holds great sway over world events and the rest of the world can justifiably expect that you will use this influence wisely and soberly
The current election process for POTUS is a significant part of this and i would consider it a reasonable expectation that when you, as a nation, are recruiting for such an important job that you would want to find the candidate most qualified and capable, and not just one whose soundbites play well on the latest news bulletin
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#315 Yankeefreedom76
This may be a typical example of the Scotsman blog You are probably one of the many Americans fighting your little local problems on the world's blogs.
Don't blame the Europeans! (unless you think we all live in Ohio, California, etc).
The BBC blogs will also speed up on issues other than which guy has to raise US taxes to pay for your enormous deficit, once 4 November comes, and we revert to the previous situation when reasonable US citizens (OK and MAII) posted in reasonable numbers on the BBC blogs (do you realise that excessive posting from the US causes the 2 hour delays in moderation for the rest of us?
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Yankeefreedom76 anytime i hear europeans, criticize americans about tolerance or call them racists for any reason, then i remind myself of the popularity of nationalist parties in most western european countries who's platform is more or less racist or anti-sematic
or i think of how the french treat people of colour or who they dont believe meets the ethnic qualification to be french.
or i think about the swiss, the polish, ..... or the spanish (who makes monkey chants at soccer games when colored players touch the ball).
quite frankly europe is about 50 years behind north america on civil rights and equality in general but they try to lecture the world on moral standards.
note: i said nothing about britain (the rest of europe also hate the british until its time to ask for money).
most of europes criticism of the US is just old money vs new money jealousy. its been around since independence.
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I travel a lot to the states, and always feel suffocated by their media.
Highly edited news deprives the public of any broader understanding of the presidential candidates, the worlds or indeed their own country. Sandwich this between scare-mongering drug adverts, panic-inducing insurance commercial and poisonous election broadcasts it becomes easy to see why US culture is condemned by fear - though entirely of their own making
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Is this a blog or a political rally?
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OMG, this is the lowest level of degragation that I have ever seen in a British blog, the vitrol and hate surpasses any seen at a republican campaign stop.
Pitiful, ignorant, foolish and ill informed vermin. Answer me not for I find you al beneath me
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Relating to all the posts from Magic and their replies:
My view is of the Middle East as a whole. When magic ascribes whatever I say as relating specifically to the Israel-Palestinian question, he is misrepresenting me. These two peoples take up only a small corner of the Middle East. You will note that whereas he says "Palestinian," I say "Arab."
Magic, with his myopic view, reduces evrything to the area of his personal interest - Israel. He has no notion of the larger Arab world (and the non-Arabs of the Middle East) or their history, needs and aspirations. These transcend the Palestinian question and long predate the creation of Israel.
Magic views are based on ignorance and prejudice. He considers the Arabs to be violent, uncivilized and stupid. He speaks of them as subhuman and his hatred is unbounded.
He trades on his being Jewish to deflect criticism. This is cowardly in my opinion and, in any case, is a trick that does not work.
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#329...1712...and every war since then...
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I'm from one of the places where McCain spoke that was filmed for You Tube.
I protested weekly against the war there when it was not popular to protest the war..and I see the same people who supported the war and their hatred. People shouted obscenities and "get a job" etc at those of us protesting also. I was in a shouting match with one person about the use of torture and he said, "Go hang yourself." and imo he in a mob would willingly have killed me.
These people want to use torture , they want to use the death penalty, they want wars to subdue any international adversaries and to maintain a lifestyle and they want to destroy religions other than Christianity.
That's the reality of what you are seeing at the McCain/Palin rallies
The mainstream news media has hidden these people from the general public..with self censorship. By censoring reality the media has lost credibility.
These were the idiots who were shouting "get a job" to a person who was a retired military doctor whose children were in the military..but he was carrying a sign that opposed the war...back when America wanted war
These are my neighbors.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us
but the Lehigh Valley will vote for Obama. and we will see the percentage that will support this right wing extremist philosophy in the vote tallies
I'm sorry for being so flawed...but I can not stand Republicans. They have destroyed my nation.
There should have been an impeachment of Bush/Cheney ..but maybe the fear was that the far right would rear its ugly head if the laws had been followed and an impeachment had occured.
Republicans have zero credibility with me now.
(And if you had been French, Justin, your experience would have been quite different interviewing these bigots.)
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Let me be very frank. I am from Ohio. I grew up in the state until the age of 15. Ohio is definitely a politically heterogeneous state which is why it is such a barometer of politics. However, from the southern part of the state to the western side it is very conservative to say the least.
Racism was very much in play there. As a kid i was constantly aware of it on both sides of the racial line. Black were equally responsible for it. To see a blk and wht couple was notable and yes it garnered stares in Cincinnati. When I left the state I was shocked to hear of a race riot in my hometown years later. Even more shocking to me was the fact that racism in the south seemed to be less in historically racist places than Ohio which is in the North.
So, while many may make passing references to it, gloss over it or guess. I tell you this: Its there and you dont need to guess why it may be showing its ugly face in the Republican party. Yes there are white Dems, no doubt. But, when i was growing up the Reps were known as the party for the whites and the Dems were the party for the blks. Figure out the rest. Obama is not white.
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Well, I'm signing off this chat. Hope to see all you good people sometime later. I'm sure we've all given Justin a good time. I wonder if he dreams about Slobodan at night or if he's just a wanna be?...Cheers and bless you all...even the hate mongers.
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265, moderate_observer wrote:
as for palin and her abuse of power charge, its no surprise that laws wernt broken ....
______
Palin's abuse of power is quite well documented, 'Troopergate' is just the tip of the iceberg.
I've tried hard to get some facts, and dodge the numerous soundbytes one is most likely to find re. Palin these days.
It seems P., as a mayor and governor, has fired, or tried to fire, numerous people for being 'not supportive' to her cause.
Many of those people happened to merely disagree with her personal agenda, be it a librarian, a state trooper, a police chief, several high-ranking state officials.
Fabricated evidence played a role in most cases; wrongful accusations of tazer attacks, DUI, unapproved travel expences, etc., when she even bothered to mention possible wrongdoings.
Most of the above mentioned cases have been actively supported by her husband, 'First Dude' Todd, who seems to have some influence in Alaskan politics.
To understand how some oil field operator, whose educational and occupational record makes his wife look like a genius, can become a power player in a state of the US, it might help to learn about the demographics.
Alaska has a population of less than 700.000, almost have of which lives in Anchorage, and is about 90% white.
It's the largest state of the US.
I guess that makes it the wet dream of any hick 'politician' , who aims to milk the fed and big corporations, bend the law to fit her personal agenda and profit, and get her highschool cronies appointed to government jobs.
I don't doubt her knowledge of sixpack toting dudes like her spouse, but what on earth could she possibly understand about the the US middle class, or any class for that matter ?
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332
We don't care about your view of us euros. The majority of us find it funny that Americans come on to the BBC website to to get American news. Whats the matter, don't trust your own news outlets? lol.
I would bet any amount of money that at the next UK election, British people won't be going to the fox news website in their droves for UK election updates.
And you can deny that republicans are like nazis and are doing nothing wrong if you like. But remember that Hitler thought gassing the jews was the right thing to do in his own mind. Oh and when people are screaming "Kill Him, Kill Him" at McPalin rallies when Obama gets mentioned. Kill Him, Kill Him. Meaning assasinate the other presidential candidate leaving one possible choice for election. Nazi-ish! And also by "Kill Him, Kill Him" you republicans mean "Kill Him, Kill Him" and all others like him. Wanting to exterminate a race. Nazi-ish!
As much as you may wish to deny it. The republican party in the United States of America is this generations, less-brazen, analogue of the Nazis.
Maybe you just come here for the arguments because you are likely to get no opposition to your views on the FOX network.
I suppose you will be back tomorrow for more U.S. news lol.
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MA2 @81
Hey Marcus,
Although I disagree with you about Obama I think the fact that you are showing doubt rather than spouting certainties gives me a little bit of hope (for you). This is the most human like post you have written. Careful now.
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If you Brits want to come over here and vote,
I can always claim that you are my relatives.
Just bring along some Johnnie Walker or
some "bitters," whatever the heck that is,
and we have a deal.
Don't stay, though, my house is too small.
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why is the bbc deliberately screening my comments
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This racism goes both ways 94% of blacks are estimated to vote for Obama. Thats ludacris they dont believe in his ideals and we know that. I think you have racism because Obama is black but it goes both ways.
I believe more of the hated is rooted in his socialism. Americans dont want a government that tells them how to run their lives. I dont, thats called communism there has been a massive backlash from this latest bill.
Anyone who belives Obama will change the world is out of their minds. The president is not all powerful like people imagine. There are checks and balances and a little thing we call Congress to stop him or anyone else from being dictator. Its best to have one party control the congress and the other to control the white house so they balance each other thats what we need.
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This is just classic Karl Rovian tactics which elected the worst american president twice and which obviously McCain and Palin's handlers have chosen to emulate.
How sad - when McCain himself was a victim of fear mongering/racial division in the 2000 South Carolina primary.
McCain shows as he tries to soften the harshness and lies the last few days that he and Palin have been mere puppets of their handlers, and lack the principle and moral strength to lead our country. He has fed the uneducated, bigoted masses with hatred and suspicion, NONE of which has a damned thing to do with what is important in this country.
Please note that this post is NOT from an Obama supporter - I voted early this week for Ralph Nader.
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#351 gunsandreligion
Thanks for the offer, but I have lots of relatives in the USA who, though entitled to vote in UK elections, don't do so since they don't live here. You guys need to solve your own problems.
If I did visit, I'd bring a bottle of cask strength Laphroaig, and let you taste what a really good Scotch is like!
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#345
Beth,
Wonderful part of the world. They have a great sporting clays course up there.
I think at the end of the day you just have to look at those folks and say 'Lord help them, they're just not quite as smart as a bucket of rocks' and move on. They deserve pity, nothing more.
PA Sam
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I'm going to try and not fall into what is a blight on blogging and generalise. I'm an Irish man living in Australia. I've lived in America before, Wildwood, New Jersey. Mostly low - middle income blue collar, working class whatever you want to call them. They had their fair share of rednecks there sure but they were mostly decent good people. I have some insight into Americans because of the time i spent there. Obviously not being American I can't understand everything but neither am i an ignorant American hating european.
I am neither liberal nor conservative I don't like being Pidgeon holed. I'm not in the least bit racist or sexist. A black woman in charge of anything wouldn't trouble me in the slightest. I believe in a womans right to chose what happens with her own body. I believe gay people should have rights and get married like anyone else. I believe in gun control, i think people should be able to have guns for home protection or hunting but a six shot revolver and a hunting rifle are the only weapons that should be allowed to be bought. You don't need an autmatic rifle to shoot a deer or protect your family. Deep down i don't know if i believe in god or not, i know though that i don't believe in the christian idea of god. I can't understand how jesus is depicted these days, surely a man who was born and lived in the middle east would at least have a healthy tan? A white Jesus, seriously! Anyway i'm not here to rant about religion, i'm here to talk about the election and the deeply troubling crossroads America is at not to be beaten with the choices and decisions i have made with my life so thats why i've laid some of the out here so the morons on the post have some ammo and can get their digs in and we can move on yes most of my beliefs are liberal leaning but i reserve the right to be flexible and take on board and good conservative ideas.
There is something terribly wrong with America, I believe the country is sick. I don't hate America, i don't hate americans. Fine bunch of people mostly. However watching Sicko by Michael Moore (i can hear the groans, don't worry i don't believe everything he tells me either) and the part where the old woman is taken to the free clinic by the taxi after being discharged from the hospital. What struck me most was not the cold indifference shown by the hospital, as a lot of what corporations world wide get away with these days has numbed much of my moral outrage, more the fact that while that poor woman was in the street in a hospital nightgown clearly distressed several people walked by and gave her not a second glance, never mind stopped to help and i couldn't help thinking that back in Ireland or here in Sydney someone would have stopped. It wasn't a homeless person or a drunk, she was in a hospital gown yet no one wanted to know.
You may ask what is this to do with anything and it's a valid question. It's a symptom of an apathy that is growing so fast in america. A major electoral candidate can "joke" about the killing of another and not be removed from the election ticket. I respect John McCain, or more correctly i did. He seems like a decent man and i love the fact that he disagrees with his own party frequently and i would really like to know how much control he has over the current campaign cos i struggle to believe he believes some of the things they are saying. He has recently come out and said obama is not an arab or a muslim like it's good that he is not. An arab muslim is not a bad thing! arab muslim does not equal terrorist! Real muslims do not condone terrorism or suicide bombings it's agains the teachings or the Koran, seriously do a little research. Besides isn't his father Kenyan? Fear is killing America disturbing things are happening and no seems able or willing to stop it.
There is a quote that goes along the lines of bad things happened cos good people sat back and did nothing. I am a bit of an intellectual. I read extensivly and not just Stephen King, though i do love him. History is something i've studied and i can see parallels with 1930's Germany. there was an anti-intellectual movement there, Jewish and non jewisg alike. There was fear there, economic depression a real mixing pot of hatred. The people were divided. No some peole might get offended with drawing parallels with that era and frankly i don't care, history is a warning for the future.
America is split. People are disageeeing with each other not on the issue but wether it's a democrat or a republican that is raising them. I'd love to see an election where one party says these are my ideas and my plans and the other does the same and reverands, daughters, gender, friends, skin colour or lipstick is never mentioned. If Obama fails to win the Presidency this november we can fool ourselves and say it was down to experience or naievity or vague plans but it won't be. It will be because he's black. Republicans out there answer me this and be honest some of you won't vote for Obama because you trully belive that McCain is a better choice and i respect that democrats will do the same, some of you will not vote for him because he is a democrat and as narrow minded as that is i can't complain as Democrats will do exactly the same but a significant number, many many thousands will not vote for him purely because he is black and thats a tragedy. He does seem sincere in his want for change and unity and John McCain does also seem like he would make a good president but it's who is behind the scenes if he does take office that is worrying.
Hopefully fear doesn't doom America to not take a step for change and rebuilding based on the colour of a mans skin.
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guns:
Good idea. It's just that the US now wants to know the number of my bank account, credit card details, all sorts of stuff when you fly there. Things I don't have to tell the plice here even if they arrest me. . . .
You mean 'angora bitters'?
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#342
Doug,
I probably am beneath you but some folks on here really are not. I try to think of everyone as a peer, I find it keeps me more civil.
As for the vitriol of some of our fellow bloggers, you are correct. They are no better than the crazies.
Sleep well, hope the recovery from Ike is going well.
Egalitarian Sam
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#348 U12831485:
based on palin's response to mccains campaign activities in some state, and er enthusiasm to go to these various states, i have come to the conclusion that palin is just using this campaign as a tool to see parts of the country she wouldnt have seen otherwise. for free. :):)
maybe she can convince Mccain to have a campaign rally in paris so she can use her brand new passport.
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"but the fact remains that some Republicans despise Obama in a way few Democrats despise McCain"
Thats modern journalism which borders on sophomoric nonsense - ideologues on both extreme tend to hate the other party regardless of the issue.
Abortion is a hot button with a minority of the American public and extremist on both sides tend to hate each other with equal venom.
Its time for people to wake up and recognise that both the Democrats and the Republicans don't have any meaningful difference and have morphed into something that doesn't deserves critical review rather blind support.
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358: guns:
Sorry. That should have been 'angostura' not 'angora'.
It's the way our favourite straight men have been rabbiting on about the SAME STUPID STUFF again. . .
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#325
Xie,
Let me try and answer, since my neck is a little red:
Starting a redneck quiz:
(Does your pickup truck have a bumper sticker that says: "America, love it or leave it!") No, but i do have a gun rack
Can you define "liberal"? If not, do you hate them anyway? Yes and no
Do you you know what a "humanist" is? Do you hate them anyway? Yes and no
Have you never lived outside your native area? Do you still claim to know all about your whole country? Yes, yes, and overseas too
Were you told that Puritans believed in religious liberty? No, they were a bunch of really dull people who bought the place
Do you stand when Dixie is played? Nope
Are you retired? And yet do you have strong ideas about strong action to set things right? No, and yes
How many dogs do you own? 3
Are they hunting dogs? 2 are and one is a plain old sniffin dog
How many guns do you own? 5. 3 shotguns a hunting rifle and Walther PPK
Not all rednecks are the same.
[Please continue this list... there are rednecks in Alaska, too, so we need a thorough quiz]
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#352. icetayoa: "why is the bbc deliberately screening my comments"
Since apparently you cannot read, immediately under the line "Post a comment", there is the statement All posts are pre-moderatedWhat does this mean?
You're not the only one to be screened.
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#353 emperorunknown
"Its best to have one party control the congress and the other to control the white house so they balance each other thats what we need."
Nice to know that you voted Democrat for the House and Senate during the Bush years!
Gosh, aren't the Republicans such fair minded people!
Could it be that you've accepted that the Republicans have lost the White House, and want to try to limit a Democrat President for partisan reasons?
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Re 353.
Two things, firstly cut the colour folk some slack, it's not ideal they are voting for Obama just because he's black but they are still getting the hang of this voting lark only being allowed to vote the last few decades (unles they are criminals or have a name that sounds like a criminals or living in Florida).
Secondly the President can't change the world? Checks and balances? 10 trillion dollars and a hell of a lot of dead americans/arabs say that is the most naieve, ill informed opinion i have heard on this blog and thats including the triumphant return of JohnAAA
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#341
And does it really exist anyway? Discuss.
Philosopher Sam
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I am getting really sick of this sort of thing:
"The Palestinians don't deserve a homeland untill they prove to the world they are ready to be civilized."
Just in case this happens to be the view of the other racists who post here so often, and always about the same subjects, 'the Palestinians' are Arabs.
It was the Arab culture which gave the world a great deal of philosophy, medicine, surgery and surgical instruments and algebra . . .not to mention the idea of baths, washing and some beautiful architecture. . .
At a time when the antecedents of the person who posted that remark (and others like him) were even less civilised than they are today.
(Unless they are Arabs, of course, but that seems rather unlikely.)
Oh, just get lost, will you? Find somewhere else for these wretched repetitive rants of yours. Or find something new to say
We've all heard it all before. We know what you think. I know what you think, and I despise both people like you and your opinions. Or find something new to say.
And don't bother to respond to me in your usual fashion. We've read all that before no end of times as well.
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#353 : the president cant change the world? lol , are u kidding?
the president leads the way on:
free trade talks, peace talks, negotiates military alliances, holds vetoe power must we continue.
he is the leader of the government and has a stronger influence on policy than any senator or member of congress.
also you stated 94% of blacks will vote for obama? lets not forget african american voters flock to the democratic party , its such a given, republicans do not even bother campaigning to african americans.
so im pretty sure had it been hillary the support would be the same.
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Re 368.
Here, here. Arabs , Muslims, whatever they are just different thats all.
American fundamentalists, different does not equal bad.
Palestinians have the right to live in peace too, lest we forget Israel was plonked right in the middle of where they used to live. I'd be pissed too, granted i wouldn't firebomb a bus, probably a strongly worded letter is as far as i go but lets not forget that besides Iran wanting to wipe them off the map and suicide bombers the Israeli government could be seen in some ways as acting is a terrorist manner themselves. It's possible they are becoming what they are trying to fight.
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Republican propaganda works!
Hundreds of absentee ballots sent to voters in Rensselaer County identified the two presidential candidates as "John McCain" and "Barack Osama."
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Thank you moderators for ruining my little joke.
358 was a reply to 351 and I deliberately wrote "Gunsand religion: you mean 'angora bitters'?" instead of 'angostura bitters'.
Now, moderators, please explain to me why that should be 'referred' when posts that clearly are an incitement to race hatred or are deliberately personally offensive are not?
It's just I don't want anyone here to think I've suddenly gone off the rails like some others and posted something really offensive.
Unless being a supporter of the Angora Rabbit Liberation Front and the Homeland for Angora Rabbits Campaign and the Stop People Claiming Angora Rabbits Are Bitter Pressure Group counts?
(Sighs. They're never as good when you have to explain them, are they? I had the same trouble with my 'walking aid' a few days ago at about the same time of night.)
Oh, yes, I'm also joining the "Find a Sense of Humour and Give it to the Overnight Moderators" group.
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#368
Ish,
This thread was bound to bring out the crazies. I'm going to go chill with a glass of wine and a cigar and let them talk to each other.
Sane Sam
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#345, bethpa, it really pains me to see people like
that tromping around my alma mater.
I hope they had to pay big bucks to get in, and
that the money is being put in the Lehigh athletic
fund.
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#355. oldnat: "If I did visit, I'd bring a bottle of cask strength Laphroaig, and let you taste what a really good Scotch is like!"
No need to bother; ten year old Laphroaig is readily available in the USA. If you must bring something, bring the seventeen year old.
#351. gunsandreligion: "Just bring along some Johnnie Walker or some "bitters," whatever the heck that is." It could be one of two things, Angostura Bitters, used to make Champagne cocktails and 'Pink Gin' (which is a naval drink, diluted with water and possibly the most disgusting alcoholic beverage of all time) - or, the several brands of Bitter beer, one of the favourite draught beers brewed in Britain before the vogue for pilsener type brews such as Harp, Fosters and Bud. A pint of Bitter or even Mild-and-Bitter was a staple of every pub in Britain until around twenty-five years ago. No longer; less than a third of all beer drunk is of the 'traditional" variety.
Here endeth the Cultural Lesson for today.
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#356 SamTyler1969
I did what I could to stop the Bush administration. I set up peace conferences and donated thousands of dollars to Democrats. I protested... wrote on the internet etc...But when I received a Christmas card from Bush via the RNC I bought a house in Canada because I felt threatened. Why would someone who completely opposed Bush receive a Christmas card from Republicans unless I was on some sort of a list? Now I am just one of many millions who think similarly. Anyway I am trying to live in Canada now...For me, from my perspective, the Republicans have destroyed my nation.
But I think it is true that a certain percentage of every nation is dangerously extreme and willing to commit violence...and such groups can be on the right or the left and can even be a part of normally peaceful religions.
I have in the past thought well of McCain even though I did not agree with him politically. The only defense for McCain's current behavior is that he is exposing the right wing extremists...and falling on his sword for his nation. The religious right and other right wing Republicans in the past prevented McCain from getting the Republican presidential nomination with vicious lies and innuendo. How he ended up in bed with them now is strange. But all of this revving up of the right wing will make it more difficult for Obama to govern if he wins the presidency.
And up here in Canada there is far more on the tv about other nations, religions and languages. They have a tv comedy called Little Mosque on the Prairie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Mosque_on_the_Prairie
which is trying to promote understanding between the different groups. Here I could watch on tv a Muslim leader discuss his faith as if he is speaking to other Muslims..That simply does not happen in the US. Most Americans are unaware of the differences within the Islamic faith.
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#329 David Cunard
Thank you for correcting a misstatement I made regarding early British history. I have been told the story I posted for years and quite frankly never took the time to check the facts myself.
My aunt passed on many years ago. The research she did has long been misplaced. Frankly, it is something that is seldom mentioned or discussed in our family.
Following your post I did a quick check of your history during that period. You are absolutely correct. It was religious intolerance that drove the people to leave during that time period.
I am proud to have a famous Naval officer in the British Navy in my ancestral tree.
Again, I appreciate you pointing out my error.
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Ref 357
Great post.
I feel very sad for all the Arab Americans in Detroit and elsewhere in the country. They are not terrorists, but somehow, it's now commonplace to equate being a Muslim/Arab with terrorism, all because of 18 hijackers on 9/11 who should have been arrested beforehand if the FBI had done it's job properly.
Meanwhile this sort of rubbish keeps happening at the McCain rallies. Buddhists don't have a God anyway which underlines this bigot's ignorance.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/11/speaker-at-mccain-rally-says-non-christians-want-an-obama-win/
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371:
Sorry for doubting you there for a moment. I couldn't believe anybody could be so careless.
Careless? Perhaps not. Shouldn't that effectively invalidate all the voting in that county now? It is depressing, isn't it. I suppose there will be more.
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#372 british-ish
I've no sympathy. Due to your jibe re the spelling of whisky/whiskey, you've destroyed the economic base of the bank of G&R - see my #127 on Robert Peston's blog.
A clear case of booze racism on your part - with dire economic consequences!
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#377 excongressman
That you ever believed that there was such a thing as "socialism" in 17th or 18th century England because you "never took the time to check the facts myself" says a huge amount about your ignorance and lack of education.
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377, excongressman.
"It was religious intolerance that drove the people to leave during that time period."
Yes, and those people arrived here and themselves practiced religious intolerance, and offense that exists to this day.
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Someone, I saw earlier, wrote something about racist/nationalist parties in Europe.
I can't be bothered to look through the posts fort it, but I think the assumptions were erroneous in that mostly those parties have, in most European countries, very much minority support.
And, if some of the views expressed by some Republican supporters here are any guide, then their stances are not exactly dissimilar. The numbers aren't though, it appears.
Speaking of which (and as a godless pinko-commie-intellectual-liberal-socialist, or whatever the favoured term is for people like me around here these days) I see Joerg Haider (leader of the far-right Alliance for Austria's Future) has died.
I may have to revise my ideas, like a good intellectual, having been presented with new evidence.
Perhaps there is a god, after all. If so, Sarah Palin will be looking very happy in the next few days hoping that the trend continues.
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#375 David_Cunard
"ten year old Laphroaig is readily available in the USA"
and it's often significantly underpriced relative to poor blends!
I've never found cask strength Laphroaig in the US, however.
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380, oldnat:
I don't understand what I've been and gone and done?
127's by one of those ranting rabbity people, isn't it?
I suppose the boys in blue will be round telling me off for doing something against the Race Discrimination Act (Distilled Alcohol and Liqueurs Provisions), then.
ME!!!! I'm so ashamed.
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If people are getting angry they should be getting angry about poverty, injustice, inequality and greed.
Getting angry because of things like editorial bias, smears, slurs and parochial religious beliefs just makes you appear small-minded and petty. Getting angry because your guy happens to be losing in a democratic election is just silly.
I hope the Democrats don't try to make great political capitol out of "Troopergate" because a) they don't need to, b) it speaks strongly enough for itself and c) it will reinforce the argument of the Republicans that it forms part of a partisan witchhunt.
The Democrats are playing a smart game so far, Obama is looking in control of his team and making winning calls. Running a campaign isn't the same as running a country, but it does involve some of the same skills and judgement.
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#376
Beth,
It's Ironic isn't it? The RNC ask me for money all the time, the local candidate for Congress seems to think I am his friend and a personal endorser (I am neither though I do know him). I recall being invited to fundraiser for the dearly missed Rick Santorum (A Santorum was a place the Romans went to when they didn't know what they were talking about but felt the urge to vacalize anyhow). Missed because I almost broke two TV's throwing beer cans at him, had my aim been better I would have cost myself $$$.
I would have gone, but I was afraid I would slap him. I also objected to the price for a breakfast. I'll donate to anyone for cheap red wine, but not for stale scrambled eggs. For the red cross yes, for a politician no.
Anyway, I guess a lot of folks assume that if you do well you are Republican. Perhaps 20 years ago that was true. But now I fear the Republicans have become the party for crazies. I have to keep myself strictly neutral because of my professional and charity roles, hence the blog therapy this year. Put simply there have been too many times when I have been asked for something by a board member that was political who assumed my beliefs and I wanted to say 'What are you, a freaking idiot? We ain't here for that'.
Watching these rally's I just wonder how long the party can survive. I do think John McCain has allowed himself to be handled but he is now figuring out he has a tiger by the tail and he just doesn;t have the energy to tussle with the big ol' pussy cat.
I think in the end all we can do is seek to treat others with the respect they deserve and pity when they are haters.
We go on. Come back, the weather is lovely in PA right now.
Country Sam
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#374 gunsandreligion
From what I read 5000 attended and it was free. A friend who was a protester and was quoted in the Morning Call told me that many of the people were from outside the Lehigh Valley and from as far away as Scranton..She assures me the Lehigh Valley will go for Obama and that Charlie Dent is in trouble in getting reelected.
Just from driving in the Bethlehem area..the wealthy communities have McCain signs and the moderate to low income have more Obama signs. There is a tremendous class divide if one looks only at the signs..but it might be that putting up an Obama sign might be a problem in an upper class neighborhood. I was told some of the Obama signs were being stolen...
What do you have your degree in?
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359. SamTyler1969
All's well, thank you Sam, just some of the reading here gets on the nerve, if you know what I mean. Such anger and.. hate,.. and even that seems too,.. nice a state of mind.
I at times feel that the financial meltdown, the political and religious convergence added with the lifestyle conumdrum of values verses morals equals global insanity.
f>m~p+r/c+lc-V^M=GI
For the validity of the theorem read any hundred seventy of the above posts, include jf, marbles, aquagirl, ma2, brit-the ish, oldnat, x-ming, GnA, you as well Sam, and mix in newbies and myself and the resulting cocktail resembles the Parliament deciding on punishment against uninvolved parties for collecting money for oil.
just words, just speeches
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381, 377, 329, 131:
Jack Kett, the Levellers (not the rock band!) . . .
Have a glance through Christopher Hill's The [offensive word deleted]Origins of the English Revolution
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A previous comment - 221- mentioned that government doesn't work very well. Although many love to malign the Federal govt., in my experience, reality is much different. Sure, there are some places, some agencies, where people are in it only for a paycheck, but most civil servants are just that- servants of the Republic, and citizens themselves. And hard-working, committed, and responsible, committed to improving things but often hampered by bureaucracy and the fickleness of Congressional mandates. In a sense, they ARE the republic- good and bad, dedicated and lazy, Democratic and Republican. It's inevitable, since the Fed. govt. is the nation's largest employer. We get the govt. we deserve.
Back to the subject of this thread. Lack of education truly seems to be at the heart of much of the fear and hatred evidenced in recent weeks, but of a different sort. I don't think it matters as much whether people graduate or drop out, as it does the attitude of the parents while children are in school. My 12 year old came home this week with news that many of the kids in his class have been told that people need to vote against Obama, "for his own good." It sounds as though there is a new whisper campaign- Obama is in danger, so don't vote for him or he'll be killed. It superficially could be credible, and sounds like it's coming from true concern.
In today's small-town paper, an article by the AP highlighted a recent decline of support for McCain by blue-collar folks in Pennsylvania. While still leading this demographic, McCain's lead has slipped some 7-10 points in recent weeks, if I'm recalling correctly.
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BTW,
I just realized my last Gene Hunt quote was moderated. For the moderators:
Dudes, that is a BBC character I am quoting, and a quote you showed at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon on BBC America. If you broadcast it you should be proud enough to allow it on your blog.
For everyone else, Ish, I believe the term for pink commies like you and (probably) me can be found by googling 'Gene Hunt, Man Utd, French, Quote'
Beer O'Clock gentlemen
DS Sam Tyler
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A previous comment - 221- mentioned that government doesn't work very well. Although many love to malign the Federal govt., in my experience, reality is much different. Sure, there are some places, some agencies, where people are in it only for a paycheck, but most civil servants are just that- servants of the Republic, and citizens themselves. And hard-working, committed, and responsible, committed to improving things but often hampered by bureaucracy and the fickleness of Congressional mandates. In a sense, they ARE the republic- good and bad, dedicated and lazy, Democratic and Republican. It's inevitable, since the Fed. govt. is the nation's largest employer. We get the govt. we deserve.
Back to the subject of this thread. Lack of education truly seems to be at the heart of much of the fear and hatred evidenced in recent weeks, but of a different sort. I don't think it matters as much whether people graduate or drop out, as it does the attitude of the parents while children are in school. My 12 year old came home this week with news that many of the kids in his class have been told that people need to vote against Obama, "for his own good." It sounds as though there is a new whisper campaign- Obama is in danger, so don't vote for him or he'll be killed. It superficially could be credible, and sounds like it's coming from true concern.
In today's small-town paper, an article by the AP highlighted a recent decline of support for McCain by blue-collar folks in Pennsylvania. While still leading this demographic, McCain's lead has slipped some 7-10 points in recent weeks, if I'm recalling correctly.
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#382 Allmymarbles
There are some studies now that seem to indicate that religiosity might be tied to our genes. This will give you an idea of what they are like:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7147
If that is true and the US was founded by people who were unusually religious that might explain why there is more religiosity in the US than in Europe?
( Although we have had so many groups come through since those early years..but I wonder if there is some sort of selection process going on...so that Americans are more religious than Europeans.)
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#383 british-ish
I also saw that comment and decided to ignore it, but since you mention it again, I need to clarify.
There is a huge difference between those racist style nationalist movements which operate on some form of spurious ethnicity like the British National Party (BNP) and which do have minority (although worryingly large - 3-10% support) and those movements which espouse "civic" nationalism (includes everyone who wants to be included) as in Scotland or Catalonia.
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#384. oldnat: "I've never found cask strength Laphroaig in the US, however."
Good liquor stores have it - check a BevMo if you have one near you, or Google it for your area. A 'box-store' might even have it; since they stock the far more expensive Dom Perignon, it's likely that your favourite tipple is more available than you think!
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#381 oldnat:
You are right. I am the dumbest SOB that has ever walked the face of this earth. I'm certain my diplomas are no where near as prestigious as yours.
I have no idea of your special discipline, however, it is obvious you slept through all the classes on common courtesy, respect and human decency. Your nastiness has to be the result of education as God just doesn’t make junk like that.
Oh my, I’m in deep yogurt with you now as I let it slip I believe in God.
It is no wonder so many Brits are immigrating to this country. I even know several that have become US citizens. Can you imagine that!
Not to be disrespectful, only factual, but there are a lot of well educated idiots in the world.
Oh, one last thing. I don’t know your discipline but this dumb, knuckle dragging, sometimes redneck will challenge you to a contest in my discipline. How much do you know about computer technology, electronics and mechanical principles?
Sorry I thought it more important to learn something to help provide jobs and opportunities for my fellow citizens than spend hours studying early European History while smoking a foul smelling pipe and sipping French wine.
I realize you believe you are the center of the world, but buy an airplane ticket and visit the US, China, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Taiwan, Palau, Saipan, Guam, Australia, New Zealand, Samoa, Mexico, Canada and a few more places I can read off my passport.
Meet you in the parking lot behind the WalMart store. Bring your own voltmeter.
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#338 oldnat,
Sir, that is a typical story in the Scotsman. Notice that an investigation of her has just started here, but you guys already have her tried, convicted, and executed in the papers!!!
Thank you for proving my point about your incessant hatred.
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389, bethpa.
I never put up signs on our property or use campaign bumper stickers. You never know what loony will come along and throw a brick through a window. I do wear a button though. But that is too personal to evoke violence.
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#386 british-ish
All is resolved.
Gunsandreligion has authorised me to open a "whisky" branch of the booze bank (to be known as the non-e facility), so international finance can now operate in an equally euphoric state.
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392 :
excongressman (and others) could try an early 'socialist' novel, too to add to their education: Jack of Newberrie by Thomas Deloney who was a silk weaver from Norwich. Published in 1597. Just remembered that. Had to look the date up though.
(Apologies for going all socialist-intellectual or whatever it is, suddenly.)
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383. british-ish
"Speaking of which (and as a godless pinko-commie-intellectual-liberal-socialist, or whatever the favoured term is for people like me around here these days) I see Joerg Haider (leader of the far-right Alliance for Austria's Future) has died....."
I=g/p-c-i-l-s~I=fr^A4A-f
See what I mean, it's a global meltdown of lateral intelligence being illegally passed forward undermining the future we won't see due to error of religions to teach that it is government that must be seperated from the people, not the church, not visa~versa.
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#389 bethpa
Interesting. Northwestern PA is a bit more of a mix- Obama signs clustered in less well off areas in our small towns, while McCain signs dominate the countryside (both the better upper and lower income areas.)
Hard to draw conclusions. However, a few brave Obama signs have started to pop up outward... Looks like some are taking measure to protect them, too- placing them a few feet from the front door, and one particularly enterprising soul created a small display, complete w. American flags (to remind some folks who need the reminder that we're all in this together!)
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#388 SamTyler1969
I donated to Casey..one of the best investments I have ever made ... but my donating days are over. If people can't figure things out now I give up...and I don't want to waste any more money. Even Marcus Aurelius is beginning to understand...and is amusingly confused about who to vote for...
The weather has been fantastic in Canada now too...but I'll be back in Pennsylvania for the election...for sure.
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#391
Doug,
I hear you, and I note that some of the more bitter and hateful comments have been aimed at you. I can only say that while I am pretty sure we will vote different ways this year I would surely love to have a beer with you sometime and talk about the merits of Browning Vs Beretta, who makes the best chilli and where is the best Rodeo in SE Texas.
As for the haters, the only counsel I can offeris that when you look back on your life in 20 years time and say 'Man I really told him. That solved . . . ah . . . emm. Jeez Nothing'? You finally got it. Or mebbe not.
As a Christian I have to go to my grave comfortable that when I meet my maker yelling at / about someone is not on my list of achievements.
Stop hating, start solving. And start local. If you took all that nastiness and channelled into a local charity, the world would be a better place. Be a Big Brother, Big Sister. Give Blood. Serve in a soup kitchen. Help a Museum/Library/School/University. Save puppies (Doug, I love that you do that). Do something.
Counselor Sam
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391
DougTexan wrote:
f>m~p+r/c+lc-V^M=GI
Sorry, can you run that one past me again, please? I didn't do that well in maths at school.
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nicely done excongressman, you have taken a very valid point against personal attacks and ruined it with a personal attack. He was a bit harsh but i think the point he was trying to make was don't make general sweeping statments about something you have then been found to know little about.
"Not to be disrespectful, only factual, but there are a lot of well educated idiots in the world." In this context it is being disrespectful.
No one cares what your discipline is or what exactly you are going to with that voltmeter in the wallmart car park. get over yourself, try to stick to topic and maybe nasty people won't say nasty things about you.
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#389, bethpa, it's really disconcerting to hear
what you are telling me. I can believe the class
divide, but I cannot believe that any educated
person would spout off like the people in the
video that you linked to.
I have my doubts about Obama, as I have
expressed previously, but, I have certainty
about Palin and the crowd that she is attracting.
If the Republicans do not come up with some solid
evidence, like money from Russia or Venezuela
winding up in Obama's campaign by election
day, then I shall probably be forced to vote for
him. It's not something that I really want to do.
Voting Democratic is never something that I
want to do, but I occasionally have to. I voted
for Kerry in 2004 because I wanted to get
rid of Bush, and it looks like I may have to
vote that way this time to send a message
to the Republicans that I don't want to be
associated with Brownshirts.
Oh, and my degree is in Math. Computers were a
new thing when I went there, and they didn't
offer a degree in it, and, besides, I had already
learned the basics by building one out of the
scrap pile of the Philadelphia Sperry Univac
plant.
Math is a really good major, because if you
can derive proofs, you can educate yourself
in just about any scientific field. It's truly the
queen of the sciences.
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#399
OK ex. I'm in. I'll take your question on Computer Technology.
Your follow up question will be on the 'Cambrian Explosion'. Fair is fair I answer yours you answer mine
The idea of a well educated idiot is, in fact, an oxymoron if you use a dictionary.
As for your other subjects, I will have to decline on electronics. That is more our old buddy Marcus field. Ironic you share the same specialization. I am also not a mechanic but as a congressman I assume you have some basic grasp of economics so we can chat on that subject as well.
One question though, how many terms did you serve?
Serious Sam
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402:
Are you sure that's altogether wise? I thought that the trouble was the financial system had been operating in a state of euphoria.
(No, it might be OK. The one that did the damage was coke-, not booze-induced, wasn't it?)
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#389 bethpa,
the reason the lower income houses have Obama signs on them is because they are the ones with their hands out and want everything for nothing.
That's who the democrats enslave with their "take care of all your needs" NANNY STATE politics.
Here in the states, we pride ourselves on being self reliant, doing for ourselves, making it on our own!
That is the attitude that made us the mightiest nation on Earth.
That's why we loathe the idea of socialism..something the Europeans can't seem to figure out about us.
Yes, we have social programs for those who truly need it. But there are families here who have been on welfare literally for generations!
The Republicans want to teach them a job to take care of themselves and be productive citizens with some kind of self respect. The democrats want them to stay the way they are so they will always be dependant on the state, thus insuring their vote.
Absolutely disgusting.
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Hey Oldnat,... ha, this is a funny battle you and Yankeefreedom76 got going here, keeping with the title of this post; Getting Angry.
"Genes contribute to religious inclination" by Maggie McKee.
Brother, after I read that article I couldn't help but wonder,.. If Mum and Dad get divorced will they still be brother and sister, making you my cousin as your my uncles bastard son?
jumpin' flyin' penquins batman
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#408
Ish,
You must be a mole. I clearly remember from my time in Britaian that that equation was solved by Bill Bryson on an open university program on BBC2 at 11pm on a Friday night.
I had, however, been to the pub so my recollection could be confused.
Educated Sam
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#399 excongressman
If I were to post comments in your field (computer technology, electronics and mechanical principles), you would rightly condemn my ignorance.
You choose to post comments in politics (where you claim to have significant experience) but in which you clearly know little. Don't be surprised if your ignorance and naivety are exposed.
If you had really been a congressman, then you would understand more of this world. I believe you are a fraud.