Colin Powell's America
Colin Powell, yesterday:
"Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America.
"Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion - 'he's a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists'. This is not the way we should be doing it in America."
He said other things that caught the headlines and may or may not have changed the election game, but nothing he said was better said than those words; after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact.
The posts at the end of this documentary report tell a story in themselves...
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And, sadly, I saw the posts on Michelle Malkin's blog on the same subject. I will say no more.
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To Justin Webb
Those words of Colin Powell touched my heart the most. I grieve with this mother for the loss of her child and the loss of mine. There is no greater pain. There is also no place for ideology or divisiveness in our grief. We are sisters.
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"...after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact".
Er... no. Just... no.
I'm all for giving credit where credit's due, but that doesn't sound like America to me.
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Is there something wrong with being a muslim in america ?
not on paper but to many americans they would shudder at the thought of voting for a muslim. I think muslims can blame Fox news for that. I dont hate catholics because of the IRA ,
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If you say it often enough maybe it will come true - it is a lovely hope
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Gee, exponentially "brilliant" America...going once,,,,going twice...going three times...b-r-i-l-l-i-a-n-t!!?? "religious liberty", "tolerance", and best of all, "togetherness"! The Americaine version of 'liberte, equalite, fraternite' presumably. 'Cept it ain't true! It's just another part of the same American myth mouthed by corporate media propagandists and foreign correspondent cheerleaders. A closer look at America history will show a great deal of religious and sectarian strife - not to mention extreme class stratification. Today, especially America is more polarized than ever, politically and every other way. Imagine then the audacity of a pompous liar like Colin Powell spouting off sanctimoniously. It was Powell's lies at the UN that helped pave the way for the slaughter of hundred's of thousands of Muslims and others in Iraq. Not to mention many other imperialist machinations. Thanks to the Powell's of the world a lot of seven-year-old Muslim - and other - kids in Iraq and Palestine and elsewhere won't grow up at all. No one at home or abroad needs any lectures from a two-faced hypocrite like Powell. After all America has a brutal, brutal, brutal story to tell when it comes to foreign interventionism. Second to no other nation on earth in fact. And nothing the righteous Colin Powell left unsaid is worse than that!
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The most moving part of Colin Powell's comments was the section when he reminded people that Muslims had lost their lives defending America. He mentioned this photo...
http://www.newyorker.com/online/2008/09/29/slideshow_080929_platon?slide=16#showHeader
Is Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan pro-American enough for you Sarah?
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Having just read Condi Rice's 'apology' no sorry that's not the right word parody of the real world where she tells us all that Bush's Middle East policy is a great big success I'm just off to bed. I know the theory about the 'big lie' but don't these people ever give up?
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I, too, was very surprised that those comments weren't discussed in the media as thoroughly as his endorsement of Obama. It really cut to the heart of the fracturing republican party. The upcoming democratic rout will hopefully serve notice that their party has become out of line with the American mainstream. For the United States, a center-right country that was founded upon the ideals of limited federal goverment and intrusion upon the daily lives of citizens, to give control of congress and the presidency to the party that argues for a larger federal government is remarkable.
General Powell devastatingly exposed the narrow-minded and backward attitudes that have gripped the republican party. In the process, I think he reminded everyone why he has been regarded by both the right and the left as one of our most honorable and respected national figures.
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#6 proles
#10 MinnesotaGuy
Are we talking about the same person here? Now I hope you can understand why us poor Europeans are so confused. It's a little like my comment about Condi Rice and the Middle East. When you guys get talking I lose track of the real world.
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If Colin Powell is being damed by both sides then he is indeed a good man. The right are struggling to explain his 'betrayal' and the left hate him for his 'lies'.
I don't think he was manipulated by the neocons, I don't think he lied about anything. He spoke about what he believed to be true. That it turned out not to be true does not make him a liar.
It took some courage for him to endorse Obama, and this underlines the fact that Powell is an honorable man.
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the republican party re-establishing themselves as the party of intolerance and they are showing it to the whole world. I suppose that is what conservatism is about(social). resist change, resist anything different, resist anyone different. And this ladies and gentlemen is why the repubs are losing their appeal. I know they have turned off many in the past few weeks, particularly minorities. religous, ehtnic etc.
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the republican party re-establishing themselves as the party of intolerance and they are showing it to the whole world. I suppose that is what conservatism is about(social). resist change, resist anything different, resist anyone different. And this ladies and gentlemen is why the repubs are losing their appeal. I know they have turned off many in the past few weeks, particularly minorities. religous, ehtnic,social... etc.
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Colin Powell is a highly respected figure who has served his country admirably. His opinions have real weight and strike a resonant chord nationally as well as internationally. His endorsement of Obama speaks volumes as this will tip the scales in favour of the Democrat. Colin is known to speak his mind only when he is fully convinced and has weighed the pros and cons. Obama is on course to win the Presidential elections with a thumping majority come the 4th of November.
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Ref 3
"I'm all for giving credit where credit's due, but that doesn't sound like America to me."
I hope you eat your biased opinion two weeks from now. Yes, there are bigots in America and the policies and actions of our government the past 8 years have been deplorable, but based on what I have seen throughout my life we don't have an exclusive on morons.
What is important to remember is that most Americans object to unprovoked wars, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, renditions, water-boarding, and the erosion of civil liberties we have endured in recent years. Equally important, many of us believe there is a lot of room for improvement in our domestic policies and we are prepared to make sacrifices to make them a reality.
Make no mistake, there are more Americans that believe in the ideals our country was founded upon than those who seem intent in destroying the social fabric of our country under the guise of false patriotism and fearmongering.
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Timothy, Condi's story only makes sense if you understand where she is coming from.
If you see her merely as part of a plot to grab foreign oil, then what she says would seem bizarre. If you get that she really believes in democracy, really believes that this gives freedoms that one-party rule does not, and really believes that the USA is a force for good, then you may then understand why she says what she does.
You may still disagree with her, but at least better understand her.
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Anyone who thinks America is or has been unprejudiced insofar as religion is concerned throughout its history doesn't know its history. Once again BBC demonstrates it does not know America having swung from irrational anti-americanism to an America can do no wrong stance.
The real record is far more checkered. Anti-Catholicism and anti-semtism were rampant in many places in the USA until relatively recently. All one has to do is look back at Kennedy's electoin campaign to know the truth of that and the Klu Klux Klan was as anti Catholic and anti semitic as it was anti black. But there is no denying the fact that on the whole, America has been more tolerant than most other nations and continues to lead the way, often to a far greater degree than is acknowledged in the media.
It will take time for Moslems and Americans to come completely to terms with each other. Unlike the UK, the US will not stand for adoption of Sharia law or other trappings of Islam which violate its written down Constitution. I think many Moslems understand that the paradigm of Islam which exists in the Middle East, in many developing nations with large Islamic populations, and even in Europe will not be accepted here. They will not be permitted to create a subculture which subverts the basic American ethos. As a result, they have accepted that in the US Islam is a religion only, not a competing poltical alternative dogma. As a result they have lived mostly peacefully and prosperously even though there remains much suspicion among much of the non Islamic population at large. The reaction just after 9-11 which may have been forgotten by many is evidence of that.
Will we have a Moslem president one day? Nobody knows but it is hard to dismiss the possibility when just fifty years after the race riots, racial tensions, and hatred which pervaded so much of America was the norm, we may be on the verge of having our first black president. In this regard, America is far ahead of the rest of the world.
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Powell's remarks spoke to the inclusiveness he was choosing over divisiveness. Extremists in any religion can be dangerous, and demonising the many for the actions of a few is too simplistic. After all, our country was started by settlers fleeing religious intolerance.
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Havn't got much of any importance to say here, just to chime in with your thoughts on Powell's interview.
Having been 14-15 at the time of the Iraq War, I can be forgiven for not thinking much of Mr. Powell until now. His words where so eloquent, and obviously sincere - he didn't need to come out so strongly for Obama, but he obviously chose to.
I'm quite taken aback by the character of the man who had been so easy to derride because the war.
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Candice9839
Go back and re-read American history. Some of the people who first settled America were just as intolerant of religious heresy in the context of their own religion as the oppressors they escaped in Europe were. Do you recall the Salem witch trials? That was just one of many examples.
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"after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact"."
i dont exactly agree to that Justin, I think you need to visit other countries , places where people mind their own business instead of tryin to legislate what you do in your bedroom or with your body.
preposition 8 is going to lose in california too by the way.
a prominent political party vowing t criminalise abortion instead of trying to reduce it(a non issue in developed country nowadays).
mitt romney- had his mormonism held against him.
-to be president a candidate has to prove his christianity. (which disqualified guliani from being a repub. nominee..that question about the bible in the primaries crushed him)
)
when a non-christian becomes the head of the republican party or become president let me know.
-i cant forget hillary being asked if her being a woman will make her unfit to be president or to deal with foreign affair issues(asked of her in a primary debate by a member of the audience).
- so far it seems most of the previous presidents are all, william(bill) , george , john, (im missing a few and i know its a coincidence).
and lets not forget the biggest intolerance out there, intolerance of the poor. The biggest crime is to be too poor.
Lets not forget how everyone frowns at the idea that taxes will help a pauper. and somehow blame the poor for not taking advantage of their lack of opportunity.
Pull yourself up by the bootstraps , although you cannot afford boots.
somehow everyone seems to have the idea that everyone regardless of social status has the same opportunities, but i dare anyone to compare education facilities at public schools east-los angeles to schools in beverly hills and tell me their opportunities are equal. if some schools are lucky they will get a donation from Oprah or Bill and Melinda Gates.
if you cant afford college join the military.
to have it any other way is socialist right?
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#12
Amen to that.
Humble Sam
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I can see why the rest of the world perceives
us as bigoted, fat, gun-slinging idiots, but all
one has to do is to come here and travel around
to dispel this notion.
So, by all means, come here, spend money,
and discard your anti-American prejudices -
we need the money!
BTW, I started a new blog, which is accessible
at: http://theamericandreamagain.blogspot.com.
If you just want to click to get there, you can
click here.
I started the blog because I wanted to post a
piece which is too long for Justin's blog. He
would never forgive me for clogging up his blog,
and then I would never be able to ride around
on his airplane.
I shall probably have the first serious post sometime
this week - but in the meantime, please feel free
to log in and reserve the same user id that you
have here, so that we know who everybody is.
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#12, #23, it's too bad that we can't vote for the man.
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#18, #21
I like the kinder, gentler Marcus!
Amazed Sam
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#17, seanspa, I've admired Condi for staying on
and trying to set things right during the Bush fiasco.
She must be a very tired lady at this point, but
Gates and her are probably the only reasons why
we're not at war with Iran right now.
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For months I have been waiting for Obama to say, "And if I were a Moslem, so what?" But he is cleverer than I am. He waited for someone else to say it. It's a bit tardy, but it has been said.
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Which states divide their Electoral College vote s proportionally, as opposed to "winner takes all"?
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Along with the unholy trinity of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield, Rice and Powell were prime movers in instigating the most brutal act of barbarism in recent history.
Now just because he's had the "courage" to back Barack (he's your Messiah and mine!) Obama people are treating Powell like Solomon. Give me strength. And pass me a bucket.
Yo Col, here's a thought: if the welfare of Muslims concerns you so much maybe you shouldn't have got involved with bombing the s*** out of them.
I don't believe in Hell but I hope I'm wrong.
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17, seanspa.
I don't care what rationale Powell and Rice use to get out of what they have done. Nothing justifies invading a sovereign nation and causing the death, directly and indirectly, of hundreds of thousands of people.
And I really don't think that someone with Powell's background and experience could have been taken in by that weapons of mass destruction business. It doesn't wash.
Both of you are still on the hook.
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#25
Guns,
I'm hoping I did. Secretaary of State or Defense?
Optimist Sam
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#30
Maine and Nebraska
Constitutional Sam
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Thanks Sam
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Why is an endorsement a big deal? People should be able to decide for themselves. Is there someone out there thinking, "I can't really decide, but I'll wait and see what Powell thinks and go with him."
When visiting Ireland, residents there called our election process a circus. I think making a hoop-la over who one person supports that idea.
On that note, I endorse Ralph Nader. Naturally, you should all vote for him.
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MarcusAureliusII @ 21
While I agree with your main point that America's history with religious tolerance is, well, complex, the Salem witch trials maybe weren't the best example of this, since they had little or nothing to do with religious division/heresy. What they _did_ involve has been debated for centuries - small town politics, greed, land disputes, friction with Native Americans, poisoned grain, mental illness, adolescent hysteria, etc. etc. etc. - but I'm pretty sure that at no point has it ever been suggested that witchcraft was being presented as a legitimate alternate religion.
The persecution of Quakers in colonial America or the trial of Anne Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hutchinson) is much more to the point. I'd submit, though, that few countries during the late 17th - early 18th century had much to write home about in the way of religious tolerance. It's just that America lays claim to it as an ideal that makes our failures seem so painfully hypocritical.
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34, Sam.
Thanks for the info. The mention of Maine brings to mind Margaret Chase Smith. She became a Congresswoman in 1940 and a Senator in 1948. I think she was the first woman in each house.
I don't think she ever used her sex to advance herself or to excuse the eventual loss of her Senate seat (in the 1970's?). She had dignity. People like Hillary Clinton should take a page from her book.
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The link with Rageh Omaar was excellent. I always enjoy his reports. Does he now work for Al Jazeera TV and no longer the BBC?
Interesting how immigrants whole heartily embrace the constitution and its separation of church and state and religious freedom.
Pity that "established" immigrants, ie those who have been living in America for decades or generations even, seem to have gone back to the religious despot ideology that the original immigrants ran away from in 18/19th Century Europe! That includes the current political system....one must be god fearing and a Christan god fearing American at that, to be elected POTUS...otherwise s/he is unAmerican..!!
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#39 kecsmar
I'll settle for Europe electing a President regardless of their nationality.
Europe has a long way to go before we can emulate the likely outcome of the American GE that someone can be elected regardless of colour or gender to run our continent.
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40 oldnat
I take it you are aware of Margret Thatcher and Angela Merkel, for example.???
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"...after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact".
America has a good tradition of tolerance of different Christian denominations and the Jewish faith, but that is not quite the same thing as religious liberty.
Besides Islam and other world religions, religious liberty would have to include the right to have no religious convictions. How many atheists are there in the US Congress? Are there any that are open about it?
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41 kecsmar
Of course - but they only represented "states".
For a black guy to become POTUS (given their history) dwarfs anything Europe has achieved.
Of course, I'm a European Unionist. If you're a "Brit" you may not understand.
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43 I do understand. I also understand that your position as such is therefore no different to those that wish to divide the political system such as "old politicians (with their own self serving agenda)" do in the US by polarising issues.
You have a personal ideological view of where you live and what you want. It may not match what you want where you live. Whereas any of those "states" as you call them have no barriers other than social. No different to the US.
Why stop at being a European Unionist..why not be a World/Global Unionist??..and therefore Europe and the US is just another "state"...
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To those mentioning Iraq, can I just point out that those doing the killing are "fellow" Muslims, and it would be these people in charge if the Americans pulled out. Many countries, including Iran, have the death penalty for conversion out of Islam. No religeous freedom there!
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#22. moderate_observer: "proposition 8 is going to lose in california too by the way."
As of Friday last, the polls indicate that Proposition 8, which would define marriage as being only between a man and a woman, is headed for success. If it fails, it will be only short of a miracle. The drive to pass it is fueled by churches, churches which reportedly have used their pulpits to tell their congregants how to vote. That they could lose their charitable status in of no concern, it is quite simply bigotry which drives the "Yes on Prop 8" campaign. Tolerance my foot! These people are those which Justin would describe as "brilliant, brilliant, brilliant", a word which in British-speak has the meaning of excellent to the Nth degree and is vastly over-used.
Justin must live in some closely guarded enclave which is immune to the religious zealotry of not only the right-wing and its "evangelicals", but many so-called liberals who, like some contributing to this blog, have gay friends but are not prepared to help them. No names, no pack drill. To think it is only in the last half-century that African-Americans have achieved a greater measure of acceptance and it was not until 1967 that sixteen states continued to have anti-miscegenation laws. Even in the 21st century, just eight years ago, the law in Alabama prohibiting interracial marriage was still in existence; this November will be the anniversary of its abolition. That doesn't strike me as religiously tolerant or demonstrating togetherness.
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US politicians are very funny. Their common sense and unprejudiced mind only comes back to them after they leave power. Where was their right mind when it was needed before they distroyed hunders of thousands lives for the sake of their own interest!!! Shame on you, Powell. Muslims were targeted in the US and else where and you did not objected it. You should have made a stand and pointed that out during your term and not when it is too late. This only proofs that all politicians are given prepared agendas that they are forced to follow. Therefore, it does not matter who is in power. Aggression is the trigger that distroys any super power. Read the history!
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Here's a kind of inspiring clip from from the American News project. Someone comes to stir up Islamophobia at a Republican rally, and some gutsy McCain/Palin supporters let him know what they think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPzTyxMHAzA
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44 kecsmar
"Why stop at being a European Unionist"
On a number of issues I don't.
The Internet and the whole IT revolution has made localised attempts at regulation inadequate. Therefore, we do need World Co-operation/Government on issues such as financial regulation, climate change etc.
However, I admire the US for its Federal (OK I'd prefer Confederal for Europe) structure (and I'd like to see the dismantling of Imperialist countries like the UK into their national "states").
Europe created a lot of damage around the world through its imperialism. America did the same, but for a much shorter period of time.
I happen to have faith in Americans and Europeans to go beyond their past - Americans currently seem to be doing this quicker than Europe.
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#46, progress is uneven in this country, sometimes
a step forward and then two steps backwards.
But, the very cases that you bring up, such as the
one in Alabama, are the ones that prove how
extremely rapid progress is in this society;
eight years after the abolition of this law,
we have one person of mixed ancestry running
for the highest office of the land, and another
one, of similar background, influencing the
election on a major scale.
I may not vote Democratic this year, but race is
not an issue for me, or for enough other Americans
to prevent what I mentioned above from occurring.
I'm not saying that the US doesn't have a huge
number of faults; we do. But, racial divisions
are rapidly disappearing. Our divisions now
are based upon adaptation to the global
economy.
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49Oldnat
Ah so when you say "...Americans currently seem to be doing this quicker than Europe..." This implies that you agree that Europe and the US are heading in the direction you wish it to be, but the US is in your opinion affecting change much quicker.
Hence, again, I refer you to my previous post #41, when you raised the issue of gender. #40"...can be elected regardless of colour or gender to run our continent..."
How many women Presidents have their been?...and then look at Europe or indeed other countries around the world whom have elected woman as their leaders.
Other than your ideological view of what you want the world to be....your argument of the US being more progressive than Europe (and others) in elected someone with a different race or gender, than the norm, does not hold water.
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45, Ian.
"To those mentioning Iraq, can I just point out that those doing the killing are "fellow" Muslims, and it would be these people in charge if the Americans pulled out."
Sorry, you are wrong. Most of the blood is on our hands. The sectarian violance definitely cost lives, but not in the hundreds of thousands.
"Many countries, including Iran, have the death penalty for conversion out of Islam. No religeous freedom there!"
IF such a law is on the books, it is never enforced. I lived 18 years in three countries of the Middle East. If anyone had ever been executed for this reason, I would have known about it. By the by, Islam shares kinship with anyone who is of "the book" (Jews, Christians, Moslems) and freely accepts marrige among them.
You need more complete information.
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#50. gunsandreligion: "progress is uneven in this country, sometimes a step forward and then two steps backwards. . . the very cases that you bring up, such as . . Alabama, are the ones that prove how extremely rapid progress is in this society; eight years after the abolition of this law, we have one person of mixed ancestry running for the highest office of the land, and another one, of similar background, influencing the election on a major scale."
I think you misread the dates - the Supreme Court struck down anti-miscegenation laws in 1967 - forty-one years does not seem "extremely rapid progress". If the rest of the country had followed the example of Alabama (in which the law was only abolished in recent years), where would would inter-racial couples be now? If Obama's parents had attempted to marry in some other state, they could have been imprisoned. I can't see that the US has made rapid progress in the least.
I note that you make no comment on the first paragraph of my post; when the Proposition 8s of all the other states are defeated, then, and only then, will there be tolerance and equality. I don't expect to see it any time soon or even in my lifetime.
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52AMM
When i was in Iran recently, there was a real mix of very devout to not so devout followers. But now I think of it, i don't recall seeing any churches or 'other' places of worship...!!
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I'm voting no. I saw Bob Barr who is running on the Libertarian party ticket and he made more sense than either McCain or Obama. Now that really is frightening considering who he is. What a horrible choice we have this time again. Obama will probably have us in a war with Pakistan by next summer. I wonder how long it will be before Obama's supporters wish McCain had won. Believe me it wouldn't matter.
I heard Ben Bernanke Chairman of the Federal Reserve lying to Congress today. To hear him tell it you wouldn't know the US and the entire world are bankrupt thanks in part to his incompetence in an area he was supposedly an expert at. If future generations are around to write the history of this era, I think they will wonder why we betrayed both prior generations who studied the great depression so carefully that they created a bullwark against another ever happening that we took down so cavalierly and future generations that will have to pay for our stupidity when had we left well enough alone, they'd have ejoyed far more comfortable lives.
In the coming time of Thanksgiving just a month away, it will be a good time to reflect that the most valuable assets we have are not material and that they cannot be given away or sold. These are the values we share which differentiate us and distinguish us from all other nations. All outsiders can do if they care to study it the way BBC has finally tried to in its own superficial way is to gawk at it in bewilderment.
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For those who post on this blog that are non-Americans and who lack a lot of time in this country, the noise that emanates regarding intolerance re: race, gender, and religion must be deafening. I'm afraid it displays a very deceptive image of what U.S. society is like.
1. Yes, there are definitely areas and groups that contain many intolerant and bigoted people. This is inevitable- many folks just don't adapt well to change and novelty. There are still, for example, people in Pittsburgh where I grew up that haven't accepted that most of the steel mills have changed. Racism and sexism are an inherent part of certain people's culture, and cultural changes are always some of the most difficult things to affect. In this I'd suggest that we are no better or no worse than many other nations.
2. One of the earlier posts said that the U.S. has changed to a remarkable degree in an historically short period of time, and with this I entirely agree. It is truly amazing that in just 2-3 generations, the U.S. has embraced so much change, so wholeheartedly.
3. While the U.S. today appears to be filled with loudmouths, bigots, and religious zealots, from inside for many of us, these people don't speak for us. Those that shout aren't always the ones most of us listen to.
4. Most religious people in the U.S. that I have met- and as an active churchgoer, I've met many- are open, and accepting, and welcoming to people of all faiths. While people in my area and my church may vote largely Republican, it doesn't mean that most of them are intolerant. Our former assistant pastor's husband was Korean, and at a former church we helped support several families of Vietnamese immigrants. And, contrary to an apparently popular point of view, most Americans (including many religious ones) accept atheists, too.
5. I think some of the critiques of the media about following what sells are quite valid. It's more fun, and more dramatic and profitable, to cover the latest prejudiced comments by one of the campaigns, or by people harassing people waiting to vote, than to do "human interest stories" on the quiet majority, going about our own lives with civility and politeness and openness.
It's like the irrational waves of fear over child abduction in this country... fed by the media (Nancy Grace), no amount of logic will convince some people that such abhorrent crimes are rare, and declining- because the media instantly jumps all over every incident from coast to coast.
6. (and last) It is easy to jump on the anti-American bandwagon. Heaven knows that we've made it too easy, with our failures to meet our own lofty ideals, our sometimes arrogance and provincialism (sorry to anyone from the provinces...) and quick-draw on the military solution that has caused pain and suffering...
But that's just the point, for me, at least. While I'll argue with anyone who tries to defend the silly idea of American Exceptionalism (we ain't no City on a Hill, folks), we do "have a dream." This relentless dream, deeper than any love of money and personal gain, has driven us to continually search for self-improvement, to reject the bigots, no matter how often they return, and to try to make things better.
Idealism unchecked is dangerous (Vietnam?), and disappointed idealism is perhaps worse (post-9/11?) But idealism tempered by wisdom and nurtured by some humility and realism can still have a place in this world...
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A few things. Number one, Justin Webb never said America was perfect. Number two, did someone really bring up the Salem witch trials as an example of American intolerance toward religion???? That was in 1692 - almost 100 years before we were even a country!!
There are, of course, intolerent people here today. But I think Europeans need to look in the mirror before pointing fingers about religious intolerance (ahem, WW2 was a lot more recent than 1692.... and it wasn't just Germans playing along). There was a great article on the BBC about terrorism today in the U.S. vs. in Europe. European terrorism is home grown, because people are disenfranchised with the country they grew up in. In the U.S. it is foregn imports - people who are pissed off at us for our foreign policy (rightfully so in many cases). But the fact remains, we take better care of our own here, and religious tolerance was one of the primary reasons our country was founded in the first place. That doesn't make us perfect on any account. It does make Justin's statement true.
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A few comments:
Marcus:
I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I make a major difference between what is and what should be. True, we are quite religiously divided. This shouldn't be.
Re: Margaret Chase Smith
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she the first woman to run for any major party's nomination? (One wonders why Sarah Palin never mentioned her...or Elizabeth Dole, Carol Moseley-Braun, Ezola Foster or Winona LaDuke...)
Finally, with Obama choosing to have as his running mate the Senator who stacked the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearings in 2002 for war with Iraq (and with no dissenting testimony...), and now wants to hype the endorsement of a man who knowingly lied to the UN to start this war, it looks like someone can sue the Obama campaign for false advertising...
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The better angels of our nature shone brightly many times before and will again, even though we are far from perfect and our course is uneven.
Thanks Justin for acknowledging that.
A good thing to reflect on before voting, 2-1/3 centuries that brought independence, emancipation, universal suffrage, equal rights, the League of Nations and the UN, environmental consciousness, and a space station from which to take it all in...
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#52. allmymarbles: "IF such a law is on the books, it is never enforced. I lived 18 years in three countries of the Middle East. If anyone had ever been executed for this reason, I would have known about it."
In which case, you might want to read this.
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McCain campaign wants to bring up Rev Wright. In other words, they're going nuclear. Rush Limbaugh's comments today about Powell are only a taste of what's to come.
Also, reports that they've given up on Colorado, New Mexico and Iowa and will now concentrate on winning all the remaining Bush states plus Pennsylvania.
Latest Ohio polls show McCain now ahead so the fearmongering appears to be working at least in Appalachia. His numbers have also shot up in West Virgina and Kentucky. However, the demographics of PA have changed so much that even mobilising every redneck will not be enough.
He's also still behind in Virginia and North Carolina.
Obama visiting his ill grandmother will make it harder for McCain and Palin to launch personal attacks on him, at least for a few days.
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#53, David_C, I agree with you about prop 8, but
let's go out and vote. The battle isn't over yet,
and even if there is a setback in California, there
could be a different outcome somewhere else.
My understanding is that prop 8 is being funded
by organizations from outside California. It is
quite possible that if it wins, a countervailing
proposition could win on the ballot later.
If left to ourselves, of course prop 8 would be
defeated. Personally, I think that gay men are
great to have around, because the straight
women in San Francisco are absolutely desperate!
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Just realized how long I rambled- apologies.
It's late and I wax rhapsodic again, but this thread, like many others, seems to try to oversimplify and plug the U.S. into neat little pigeonholes. The U.S. is divided and united, tolerant and bigoted, welcoming and xenophobic, humble and arrogant, peaceful and militant, charming and frightening, inspiring and fear-inspiring- and all shades in between. While pigeonholing does help with intellectual concepts and trends and movements, it doesn't convey the true sense of diversity and unity and multiplicity that is the U.S. Maybe that's why we offer hope to so many who immigrate here, and fill so many who can't break out of poverty with despair.
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Second to no other nation on earth in fact.
I think I can mention another country better than America.
It is India; which had diversity long before any western nation could claim of it. Example of religious tolerance is when the leader of a major political party is Christian.
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I just want to see who is the next Republican who will stand up and say that the narrow-minded and hate-filled campaign of McCain-Palin has no place in American society or any poitical campaign. Hats off to Powell for taking a principalled stand and showing McCain what a true maverick is all about - and not the phoney, self aggrandizing McCain type. Powell is a man of honour who is willing to look at his own mistakes and learn from them - like a true military man!
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63 could not have said it better . America is a exasperating , paradoxical and in many ways amazing experiment of human imagination
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Ya know, as a Democrat, I have to say that I've always respected Colin Powell as a thoughtful man who really understood the full gravity of what was going on. I respect him now for saying what I was always surprised no one else had the guts to say: And what's wrong with being a Muslim?
I know John McCain is desperate to win, and is grasping at any straw to salvage what is probably his last chance to have a shot at the presidency, which he has wanted for so long, and he has stooped to accepting and even encouraging the kind of hatefulness certain low types of people are willing to dish out. Sadly, I had hoped he would be able to turn his party around and swing them back from the crazy fringe, because I don't think he was ever a part of it in real life, but in his campaign persona he has embraced it instead. I say sad because there are a couple of truths to be uncovered in that hatred: A) they use the term "muslim" because n***** is so gosh-darn impolite these days, B) these 'supporters' are not his -- they are Winston Chuchill's third kind of friend -- the enemy of your enemy -- and not loyal to him at all (and that has to hurt), and C) this ugly, public display of bigotry and petty viciousness will probably taint the Republican party long after we have forgotten the names McCain and Obama.
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#62. gunsandreligion: "I agree with you about prop 8, but let's go out and vote. . . My understanding is that prop 8 is being funded
by organizations from outside California."
Yes indeed! The Knights of Columbus, National Organization for Marriage California Committee, Focus on the Family and most of all The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormons. Regardless of the merits or faults of the Proposition, it seems quite wrong that those outside of our state should have any voice in what happens. Would Californians try to influence the vote for the next Mayor of New York? I don't think so. There oughta to be a law . . !
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Agreed with Justin -- this was the best part of the Colin Powell statement. It was something that -- although many Americans secretly feel the same way -- desperately needed to be said. And only Powell could go there; McCain doesn't have the heart and Obama doesn't have the guts.
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54, kecsmar.
In Iran almost everyone is Moslem. I think it is abut 93 per cent Shia. There are also some Sunni tribes, like the Turkoman. The few percentages left over are primarily Jews and Armenians.
The Jews have been there since 539 BC when Cyrus the Great brought them out of captivity in Babylon. The Armenians, who, like the Persians, speak an Indo-European tongue, were in the Middle East before the Persians and Medes arrived. Two groups of Armenians were invited into Persia from areas in the west long, long ago.
Like everywhere else in the world Iranians are religious or not religious. This is not so true of the Christians and Jews, who, like all minorities, cling to that which differentiates them from the majority.
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My America
Let me tell you about my America. I’m a Brit and no not a convert. I always wanted to live and work here, despite the fact that the only American that I met growing up was a loud mouthed lady that my father wouldn’t even let past the door.
The opportunity came to live and work here so I took it and I hated it. There were many. many personal reasons for that, but I mostly that I just wanted to be back home. That said, I was returned here 5 years ago now and have come to terms with much of what I found challenging previously.
Consider this…
America spends insane amounts of money on defence, but middle class people go bankrupt every day because they get sick.
A considerable proportion of the population is more than god (or whatever religious symbol they believe in) fearing but that same population is brainwashed into thinking that they need a gun to protect them from their equally “god” fearing neighbour.
An equally brainwashed population has traditionally voted for representatives who do not fight for their rights. It is generally the poorer and less educated parts of the country who mystically vote for themselves to be kept poorer and less protected by the gun lobbyists friends of “Big Oil”
Sounds like a great place huh?
Well it is.. Because in reality this is still a place where
You are welcomed openly and kindly by some of the most generous people in the world…. I know. Its one of the reasons this is so tolerable… ?
There is a real spirit of can do and optimism… The latter is tougher right now, but that’s the same the world over and truly Americans will restart from a better place when the economies here and around the world start moving again.
The love for the environment is beyond remarkable and do not be surprised if America really gets on it and accelerates past Europe on the cutting of all things bad for the environment within 10 years
Speaking of environment, there is a heck of a lot to protect…. There is fabulous scenery and natural beauty in so many places across this land….
So if you haven’t seen, felt it or can’t believe, can I suggest 1) you not knock it, 2) you spend well here….. Enjoy America….. and hey theres never been a better time to come...
He who is far from a cheerleader
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Oh, and as to Colin Powell.... As the locals say here "Good Job" and my appreciation to Justin for his post. Seems it really got the juices flowing for some.
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I think enough people aren't putting the comment in proper context.
"America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact."
Are we Americans perfect? No. Do we claim to be? Well, outside of our current administration's boasts, not really. Context is the key. In spite of all the racism, sexism, and bias of other forms that has gone on in America's short history, ethnic diversity continues to flourish.
I've only visited three continents so far, but in my travels I have not encountered another place that has reached so broadly in a steady historical context for so long a time while maintaining a multicultural foundation. Yes, there's been backsliding in the light of panic and fear, but we continue to move forward. In spite of our government, at times.
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57 - our terrorism is imported? Sometimes...
9/11, and the WTC truck bomb and Pan Am Lockerbie were shocking exceptions to more common home grown terrorism: Oklahoma City, the Unabomber, Atlanta Olympics, and too many workplaces, colleges, schoolyards, and smaller instances that don't make national news.
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60, David.
The article is guilty of the sin of omission. Apparently the woman's father was hanged 18 years ago for converting to Christianity, yet the bill is only now before the pariament.
What that tells me is that the father was not killed under religious law, because there wasn't one at the time, but by a zealot gang. In other words he was lynched.
As to the bill that may be passed, I think it is horrible and against Iranian tradiiton. This must be extremely upsetting to a majority of the population.
Oddly enough you would hear of non-Moslems occasionally converting to Islan, but never the other way around.
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Many muslims are decent people and would no doubt perform as well as president as someone any other religious persuasion or none.
The problem is with Islam itself. A little research on the web reveals Islam to be an intolerant and violent religion with the goal of total world domination. It can accurately be described as the ideology of Arab imperialism. Probably the greatest holocaust ever was that of the Indian Hindus slaughtered and enslaved by their muslim conquerers over a period of centuries.
Something to be aware of is that deception of the unbeliever is an important strategy in Islamic ideology. Thus muslims preach peace and tolerance while in a minority and a weak position, but once their strength and numbers have grown that tolerant face disappears.
If you really want to understand why Islam is a threat google 'why i am not a muslim' and see what you find.
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# 56 and 63 Via Media
That's not rambling. Your # 56 was very good stuff. I read it twice whilst idly scrolling down.
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#12. seanspa: "I don't think (Powell) was manipulated by the neocons, I don't think he lied about anything. He spoke about what he believed to be true. That it turned out not to be true does not make him a liar."
Ignorance of the facts/law has never been a defence. It might be mitigation, but to say that he didn't lie about anything is much like saying that Tony Blair didn't really know that WMDs could not be launched within forty-five minutes.
At the UN he said "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence. I will cite some examples, and these are from human sources." Does anyone really believe that he and his cohorts were completely fooled by these "facts"? He may be a great man in many respects, but that performance remains an inerasable black spot in his career.
I can't see that his endorsement makes any difference to whether or not Mr Obama will be elected - is the American electorate so undiscerning that they need a guiding hand from old soldiers, or for that matter, anyone in the public eye? If Madonna, Robert DeNiro and Barbra Streisand all decided to support Mr McCain, does anyone really think they would sway the result? That they, and Colin Powell, support Mr Obama does not, I submit, alter the views of potential voters.
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Not sure where this "tolerent" America you talk about is Justin.May I remind you that that around 40 years ago,Obama would not have been alowed to use the same washing facilities as You and I in some States, far less vote .His standing in an Election is something that no one could have even conceived only an historicaly short time ago.
The fact that the Race card is being used by both sides in this Election speaks of sometheing other than "tolerance" and "togeatherness"
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Post #16; DominickVila wrote: ""I'm all for giving credit where credit's due, but that doesn't sound like America to me."
I hope you eat your biased opinion two weeks from now".
Why would I be eating my words? I support Obama and I strongly expect him to win, so what's your point?
"Yes, there are bigots in America and the policies and actions of our government the past 8 years have been deplorable, but based on what I have seen throughout my life we don't have an exclusive on morons".
Of course you don't, but I'm not referring to the past 8 years; I'm referring to America's history; the "story" that Justin Webb calls "brilliant, brilliant, brilliant" and "second to none". I simply dispute this description; it is palpably false.
"What is important to remember is that most Americans object to unprovoked wars, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, renditions, water-boarding, and the erosion of civil liberties we have endured in recent years. Equally important, many of us believe there is a lot of room for improvement in our domestic policies and we are prepared to make sacrifices to make them a reality.
Make no mistake, there are more Americans that believe in the ideals our country was founded upon than those who seem intent in destroying the social fabric of our country under the guise of false patriotism and fearmongering".
I appreciate all of this. But it didn't stop America public from voting for 8 years of the Bush administration, did it?
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Islam is not just a religion, it is also a belief system - and many of the beliefs of fundamental Islam directly contradict basic principles laid out in the US Constitution.
This discussion never would have happened after Sept. 11, and the fact that it is occurring now is a testament to just how successful the Bush doctrine has been. Democracy in Iraq will be hailed as Bush great legacy, as long as Obama and Pelosi don't screw it up.
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I came across something very odd on the internet. I was looking for a picture of Obama's hands, which are very unusual. In muddling my way through, I found myself in palmistry. From there I came upon an analysis of McCain's hands and his astrological astrological chart.
The article was dated January 2007. In suming up the palmistry and astrological findings what stands out is the statement that John McCain will never be president. They also said that he would become more hawkish, encounter health problems late in 2008, be subject to anger (directed indiscriminately), would lose his appeal, and would get increasingly out of touch with the public.
Phew! It almost makes you a believer.
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#75. allmymarbles - I provided the link because I thought your hearing might not have been so accurate as you thought! :)
#52: "I lived 18 years in three countries of the Middle East. If anyone had ever been executed for this reason, I would have known about it."
#75: "Apparently the woman's father was hanged 18 years ago for converting to Christianity"
Legal or not, as you say, it's horrible, and quite contrary to our beliefs. But there are those who consider that Islam and Sharia law go hand-in-hand and would impose it on other nations if they could.
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To#49Oldnat
I sure hope you are right and I want to believe so. For too many years I have felt myself to be a passenger on the way to a train wreck.
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#82, Ms. Marbles, you must have been consulting
Mrs. Reagan's astrologer.
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To Gunsandreligion and Davidcunard
We, also, have another proposition on our ballots to define marriage even though we voted this down two years ago.
In my opinion, the government has no place here. People should be able to marry whom ever they wish and have all the benefits of partnership.
Policing the bedroom is Socialism!
I am very tired of all this nonsense from the Right. They are the real Socialists!
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To#82Allmymarbles
Obama has lovely hands!
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From what I read, its seems as though everyone who's going to vote will have voted by November 4.
Tell me this, someone, are there any States which don't allow early voting ?
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All good generals use adecuate force to strike in the right place at the right time and acheive their objectives... If you have to strike, strike hard.......for me, the fact that Colin Powell has endorsed Obama at this point and in this way is tremendously indicative of how the political land lies and where he wants to be after Nov 4th.
The message he is giving out is potent, almost paving the way for fellow republicans to follow their heart, and not their political doctrine.
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#86, aquarigal, you said:
"Policing the bedroom is Socialism!"
I respectfully disagree. There is nothing
social about having police in your bedroom.
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To#79Webpendragon
I am tolerant.
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To#90Gunsandreligion
I do not want any but my dear one in my bedroom so I will have to agree.
However, I hope you got my point.
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#86. , aquarizonagal: "Policing the bedroom is Socialism!"
Probably not really, since one of the things Britain's Labour Party (although not exactly 'socialist' today) did was to create binding Civil Partnerships. As far as I am concerned, "marriage" has a strictly religious connotation. Some countries, such as France, require that if there is to be a religious ceremony it will only be considered valid if there is also a civil ceremony. I believe that Italy requires a civil ceremony before the religious. In these cases it is the civil aspect that gives legal validity to the partnership. Since the word marriage is so loaded, perhaps there should be a different one to describe the contractual arrangements between two consenting adults. "Partnership" sounds so commercial and there must be something better which would not upset anyone. The linguists among us may have suggestions - polite, we hope!
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83, David.
As to the Iranian lynching 18 years ago, it was done by the sort of loony crowd that lynched blacks. To imply that all Iranians are would-be lynchers is out of line.
#52: "I lived 18 years in three countries of the Middle East. If anyone had ever been executed for this reason, I would have known about it."
In the first place I was not there 18 years ago and, if I had been, and if this happened in a remote province, it might never have reached the newspapers or traveled the grapevine.
And there is yet another possibility you have not considered.
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#80. Sankari: " . . . it didn't stop America public from voting for 8 years of the Bush administration, did it?"
Well, the first time was, to say the least, a bit of a toss-up! The public voted for Al Gore by a 543,816 vote margin, but the Electoral College voted for George Bush.
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To#88Eightypercent
I really can not answer that exactly but this election is expected to have a very large turn out which might mean people would have to wait in long lines. I understand that in our last election, this caused some people to be discouraged and not vote.
A lot of people believe that voting was manipulated to favor the Republicans in the past two elections.
This call for early voting is all about taking one's time to fill out a paper ballot and also if one's registration is contested there would allow some chance to clarify before election day.
This is just my understanding and I have already voted.
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#79
Surely your comment gives support to the fact that America has come a long way and is probably a more inclusive and tolerant place than many many other countries of the world.
I get a sense of Europe looking back and saying, well, America wasn't such a great place if you were poor and black or Catholic 40 years ago. Well neither were a lot of places - USA have moved much further forward in almost every respect.
When will the Uk for example elect a black PM for example? Anyone who thinks we can sit back content in our wonderfulness on this side of the Atlantic and criticise the USA is a sad case IMHO.
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To#93Davidcunard
You are getting too complicated for me.
I say let people love each other without government interference. I know that I am not using Socialism in any accepted sense of the word.
I have decided to redefine Socialism as people who think their beliefs are better than yours want to make laws to control your life.
How do you blow an internet raspberry?
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Post #95; David_Cunard wrote:
#80. Sankari: " . . . it didn't stop America public from voting for 8 years of the Bush administration, did it?"
Well, the first time was, to say the least, a bit of a toss-up! The public voted for Al Gore by a 543,816 vote margin, but the Electoral College voted for George Bush."
True, and I had high hopes for America during those days. But the blatant theft of the presidency by Bush's well-oiled Republican machine was such an unholy abomination and so weakly resisted that it made me wonder just how democratic the US really is.
Perhaps it is time for UN invigilators to monitor US elections?
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In actual fact, it is iniquitous to affront all muslims in America.
Muslims are not as many americans think. they are tremendously benevolentry people, but consistent with Powell's words it apparent that there is some wrong with Americans.
On the face of it, they, americans, don't know muslim people from Adam.
all in all, you, americans, are all muslims terrorist ?
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# 96 Aqua - thanks for that - interesting.
# 93 David C. I have always believed that it hinges on the word "commitment".
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#97 sd1979
You obvious are unaware of Diane Abbott who was elected an MP in 1987..amongst many others since...
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The points being made regarding the fact that the USA is ahead of the UK in being close to selecting a black, or at least a non caucasian, President is rather misleading. The african american community is over 300 years old and their immigration to America was certainly not voluntary. The 15th Ammendment (1870) recognised this and was drafted to specifically recognise their status as full, franchised American citizens.
The situation in the UK is rather different as immigrants from the ex colonies voluntarily entered the country bringing with them a variety of their cultural backgrounds that exist within the indiginous British fabric.
Race, in this case, is not the issue as these immigrants are relatively new citizens, no more than 1st generation in most cases.
A better comparison would be wondering how long it would be before America selected an Asian to run for the Presidency.
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#93 David_Cunard
Unusually, I need to pick up on one point of your post where you say that marriage has a "strictly" religious connotation.
I disagree. A large proportion of marriages these days are a purely civil occasion, therefore marriage is no longer an exclusively religious affair.
Apart from that, I decline to give straight people a monopoly on part of my language. I choose to refer to my UK Civil Partnership as a marriage, and anyone who cares to say different can butt out! ;o)
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#32 AllMyMarbles
Death toll in Iraq. It concludes 151,000 people died of violence to 2006.
This is three times higher than the Iraq Body Count figure which is the only one based on day to day data from morgues etc. rather than extrapolations from surveys - of which this is another example, it just had a much bigger sample than others.
The majority of these were killed by other muslims. Even the Johns Hopkins reports - which this report discredits - attribute only 30% of violent Iraqi civilian deaths to US and other forces in Iraq.
Coalition forces in Iraq have not killed 'hundreds of thousands' of people. They have killed around 50-60 thousand at most.
In the period before the Iraq War Saddam Hussein had killed at least 200,000 Iraqis and he had only been stopped by the no-fly zones from killing many more.
I do not believe Colin Powell is a liar or stupid, as some poster suggested. He believed what most of the intelligence community of the time believed.
Do apparently muslim-backed murders like the killing of the aid worker Gayle Williams because she was a Christian, or the killing of Malalai Kakar apparently because she was a woman policeman or this kind of thing make you a liar ?
Of course not. You believe muslims are not made murderous or violent by these killers any more than the Inquisition made Christians murderous or violent. So do I.
Not telling the truth about Iraq does not help.
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If the US is not anti-Islam is the State going to give the Palestinians their land back?
Judging by MAII's comments at #18, it seems that Moslems are welcome in the USA, but only if they stop being so Moslem. It sounds hypocritical to me.
This Sharia Law in the UK that MA mentions has been over-hyped and hysterical. It only relates to issues of marriage and divorce and puts Islam on a legal par with the Jewish religion. I think the American Constitution is quite safe from Sharia law.
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After Colin Powell ...... comes Boris.
I recommend today's piece in The Daily Telegraph by the Mayor of London - always worth reading for his inimitable style (one of our linkspersons might care to put it up - Ed, pretty please ?)
His Tory party have (not unusally for them these days) been turning somersaults over the American elections. They started off by fawning over McCain until it gradually dawned that they might be missing out on the main chance by underestimating the appeal and political skill of Obama. Boris, being the one-off that he is, does them a favour with the eloquence of his article.
Boris, by the way, is the original maverick (as was his mayoral predecessor) and makes McCain and Palin look like poor, wan imitations in the maverick stakes.
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Colin Powell's words concerning American freedoms within its own boundaries are beautifully observed and recorded.
The pity for America, and for the rest of the world, is that the Americans do not appear to be able to follow such principles outside their national boundaries.
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"#18, #21
I like the kinder, gentler Marcus!
Amazed Sam"
Yeah, what happened? Been prematurely visited by the ghosts of Christmas Marcus? ;-)
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83, David.
That story has been bothering me so I read it again. When I first answered you I forgot my first rule on anything coming out of the Middle East. Assume there is something wrong with it, or that it is twisted, or skewed in some way. Remember, it is very popular to characterize Middle Easterners as violent, irrantional zealots, and the Middle Easterner can play on that, if it suits his purpose.
The hanging was in Mashhad. That is ONE of the holy cities in Iran (not THE holy city) in the northeast. So what is wrong with the story, assuming the police carried out the hanging? Was the man inciting to riot? Was he smuggling drugs? Without a law to cover it, they are not going to hang him because he is a Christian convert. You may not like their laws, but they are not lawless.
What is the motive of the daughter? Is she looking for asylum for her family? Does she think that if the British intervene she can get her brother out of jail? Why is he really there?
Iranians are complicated people and great manipulators. It is a game with them and reaches the level of a high art. (Women are as good at it as men. Equal opportunity.) I can watch it with amusement because I am immune.
So forget everything I said. I neither believe it or disbelieve it, and I have no comment.
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85, guns.
No. I got this one on the cheap in the comfort of my home. I also found out what is strange about Obama's hands and what they say it means. (That's a teaser.)
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As far as I am concerned, the trouble with the great and wonderful USA can be summed up in one simple question: What kind of a country is it where the word "liberal" is a term of abuse?
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A postscript to my comment about Boris, above. His article appears in The Daily Telegraph which has recently published quite a few articles intended to damage Obama. These articles were immediately put up on Drudge.
I shall watch with some interest to see whether Boris's piece is given the same treatment !
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"......after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance and togetherness. Second to no other nation on earth in fact."
Really? When do you think there will be the first atheist president in America? Before or after the second American Civil War?
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87, Aqua.
But haven't you noticed how abnormally low-set Obama's thumb is? At first glance it makes his hand look simian, and then you see the extremely long, straight fingers. Also his hand is very flat.
Hands have always fascinated me, and rarely do they match the rest of the person. Nixon had graceful, cultivated hands. McCain's are thick and over-indulgent. Except superficially, the hand does not reflect the profession. You can find silky skin on a construction worker, and misshapen coarse hands on a woman with servants.
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88, eightypercent.
I think I read that there are 38 states with early voting. The rules are different depending on the state. In New Jersey you do not have to provide a reason for voting early.
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My comment post on a previous Blog entry was held up by the moderator.
OK I wasn't diplomatic [like Colin Powell always is] but I have a certain instinct for spotting people who are not what they appear.
I don't believe Senator Obama has told anthing like the full truth about his association with Bill Ayers [one of founder members of the Weathermen Terrorist organization in the 70's]
www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64
You might not think that important, but a policeman was killed by a Weathermen bomb.
Ayers & Co were planning a much larger bomb - but their bomb factory went up first killing three of them.
Ayers is linked to people [Black Liberation Army] who carried out a bloody robbery in the early 80's in which three innocent people died.
The BBC might want to check out the rumour that Bill Ayers may have ghost written part of Obama's Book. The suspicion is that the nautical metaphors come from Ayers [an ex-merchant seaman]
If someone with the resources of the BBC can check Ayers previous writing with Obama's it may be a surprise indeed.
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I think many of the commenters are missing Justin's point. He isn't saying there isn't religious or racial prejudice in America.
The point is that a bunch of white upper class sexist slave-owners managed to write down a sort of time-bomb called the Constitution which was in part responsible for Abolition, universal suffrage, etc.
The weakness of the argument is that several other societies have managed to follow a similar trajectory without the benefit of a written constitution, and without necessarily being inspired by Amerocan example.
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114
Or, more to the point, what are the chances of a Native American ever becoming President? There would be more symbolism in that than an African American, surely?
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105, chillO.
According to statistics compiled by Johns Hopkins, in earlyf 2008 the figure was more than 600,000.
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119, David de Jong.
If we are going to back to the beginning then every nation in the world would have a black head of state. So I don't buy it.
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# 97.America would appear to be moving apart rather than togeather.What about "White Flight" .It is not only white people, both Black and White America are choosing to live in different communities.Segregation by choice one might say.
In our TV Election coverage here, I hear Black people talking about electing a "Brother" to the Whitehouse (I suspect they don't mean a fellow American) and White people saying they would never vote for a " Negro".
The situation in the UK is harldly analagous,Black people are as as indigenous to America as white,Black people in the UK have in the main, been here for a comparativly short time.In addition, Black people are heavily concentrated in a few English cities.In the Celtic Nations of the UK they are comparativly small in number .
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118
To be fair, the 1833 Act abolishing slavery in the British Empire, was effectively the same as the 15th ammendment in the USA. Just a few years earlier.
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105, chillO.
The reason I quote the Johns Hopkins report is that one of my nieces is a professor there and she claims it is accurate. Could I be influenced by family pride? I guess so, except that she is a careful researcher and studied the report. Could it still be wrong? Sure.
What is never mentioned as a result of our invasion, is the large number of refugees that have fled over the borders to ajoining countries. It has created a problem for Jordan in particular.
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Criminals are everywhere in the world. Every country has murders, How many Muslims we see that they are terrorist in TV let say 10000 so 0.00000001% from Muslims, and 99.9% from Muslims said that our religion is forbidden Killing. Lets be fair, don't let our evils lie to us, they are speaking the same sound inside us and they always tell us bad thing so we have not fallow them.
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"117. At 09:56am on 21 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
My comment post on a previous Blog entry was held up by the moderator.
OK I wasn't diplomatic [like Colin Powell always is] but I have a certain instinct for spotting people who are not what they appear."
Really everyone claims this.
"I don't believe Senator Obama has told anthing like the full truth about his association with Bill Ayers [one of founder members of the Weathermen Terrorist organization in the 70's]"
That is because you do not like Senator Obama, so this is hardly revelatory.
"You might not think that important, but a policeman was killed by a Weathermen bomb. "
Who has said this is not important?
"Ayers & Co were planning a much larger bomb - but their bomb factory went up first killing three of them.
Ayers is linked to people [Black Liberation Army] who carried out a bloody robbery in the early 80's in which three innocent people died. "
What does "linked" mean in this sense. Was John McCAin "linked" with the North Vietnamese?
Does it mean Ayers lived in America and so did the BLA?
"The BBC might want to check out the rumour that Bill Ayers may have ghost written part of Obama's Book. The suspicion is that the nautical metaphors come from Ayers [an ex-merchant seaman]"
Why? There are rumours that the right plans to assassinate Obama - slightly more important.
"If someone with the resources of the BBC can check Ayers previous writing with Obama's it may be a surprise indeed."
If you bv beleive rumours.
Not a single fact regarding Senator Obama in your whole posting.
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117, exserviceman.
So Obama knew an ex-terrorist (note the "ex"). So what? I have known revolutionaries. Does that make me a revolutionary? I have known a lunatic. Does that make me nuts?
Give it up. Nobody cares. Your boy has lost and it was the spreading of spurious garbage that helped him lose.
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# 117 ~ exserviceman
It is always wise to be cautious about conspiracy theories, particularly ones that you have come across on a website entitled "zombietime."
Can I suggest that if you are so keen on investigating Ayers that you do it yourself (but using a different starting point to "zombietime").
For me, I would prefer that my BBC licence fee is put to better use.
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121Allmymarbles
I was judging the situation in the post colonial era, rather than the original migration from the cradle of mankind. :)
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#120 allmymarbles
I cited the WHO report because it uses a similar statistical technique to Johns Hopkins but a much larger sample and different researchers.
The Johns Hopkins report used as its lead researcher - all of whom were Iraqis - a man working for the Ministry of Health which at the time was held by Moqtada Sadr - a man who still wants US forces out of Iraq, probably so that his militia (the Mehdi army) can give him more clout.
There have been many criticisms in scientific circles about the Johns Hopkins reports - there were two. There were human and non-human influences which could have caused bias in the report.
How did Fallujah get into a report which surveyed random sites, for instance ? They pointed out in the first of their reports that carrying a GPS device in Iraq can get you killed (because you may be targetting someone) - but their survey was based on randomised GPS coordinates.
The main point, though, is that the WHO report is from a much larger sample. As I said before, it shows a rate 3 times higher than Iraq Body Count which is itself an anti-War organisation and which is the only count which takes day to day figures from morgues, newspaper reports, etc.
The main criticism of Iraq Body Count is that their very method leads to underestimates. For that reason, they always quote a range and I always quote the top of their range, currently 96,466.
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#103 David de Jong wrote...
"The points being made regarding the fact that the USA is ahead of the UK in being close to selecting a black, or at least a non caucasian, President is rather misleading. The african american community is over 300 years old and their immigration to America was certainly not voluntary. .... The situation in the UK is rather different as immigrants from the ex colonies voluntarily entered the country bringing with them a variety of their cultural backgrounds that exist within the indiginous British fabric."
Absolutely right, and to add to this there was very little immigration into the UK before the late 1940s and then into 50s and 60s.
In the British parliament there are 15 black or asian MPs, and 28 black or asian members of the Lords. Not bad in 50 years, considering the ethnic minority population of the UK was just 8% in the 2001 census.
We may not be close to electing a black or other minority leader, but the Afro-Caribean population of the Uk is only about 2%....
"A better comparison would be wondering how long it would be before America selected an Asian to run for the Presidency."
Wise words, David. Great post.
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"105. At 09:01am on 21 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#32 AllMyMarbles
Death toll in Iraq. It concludes 151,000 people died of violence to 2006.
This is three times higher than the Iraq Body Count figure which is the only one based on day to day data from morgues etc. rather than extrapolations from surveys - of which this is another example, it just had a much bigger sample than others.
The majority of these were killed by other muslims. Even the Johns Hopkins reports - which this report discredits - attribute only 30% of violent Iraqi civilian deaths to US and other forces in Iraq."
So what? All the dead are the resoinsiublity of the coalition, theyinvaded and took over the country.
Are you saying the Nazis are only responsible for the people they killed directly - all the other pogroms do not count?
"Coalition forces in Iraq have not killed 'hundreds of thousands' of people. They have killed around 50-60 thousand at most. "
How do you know this - the coalition forces have refused, disgracefully and contemptuosly to count the casualties they cause. Even the Nazis got this courtesy.
"In the period before the Iraq War Saddam Hussein had killed at least 200,000 Iraqis and he had only been stopped by the no-fly zones from killing many more."
So killing more Iraqis is OK? Stalin killed many Russians in the purges, so Hitler's Barbarrosa does not count?
"I do not believe Colin Powell is a liar or stupid, as some poster suggested. He believed what most of the intelligence community of the time believed."
But not enough to consider it warranted invasion.
"Do apparently muslim-backed murders like the killing of the aid worker Gayle Williams because she was a Christian, or the killing of Malalai Kakar apparently because she was a woman policeman or this kind of thing make you a liar ?"
The killers were able to operate because of the chaos in the country caused by the coalition.
They did not protect those who needed protection.
"Of course not. You believe muslims are not made murderous or violent by these killers any more than the Inquisition made Christians murderous or violent. So do I.
Not telling the truth about Iraq does not help."
And a corrupt morality that shrugs off the horrible chaos of Iraq as "not our fault" is below contempt.
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"124. At 10:14am on 21 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
105, chillO.
The reason I quote the Johns Hopkins report is that one of my nieces is a professor there and she claims it is accurate. Could I be influenced by family pride? I guess so, except that she is a careful researcher and studied the report. Could it still be wrong? Sure.
What is never mentioned as a result of our invasion, is the large number of refugees that have fled over the borders to ajoining countries. It has created a problem for Jordan in particular."
Or the large number of disabled and injured, or the huge increase in power of Iran etc.
All you need to know about this adventure is that the Coalition could not even be bothered to count the Iraqi casualties - even the nazis were given this respect.
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114, newtotalfootball.
It was President John Adams who said, "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion."
I don't know if Adams was an atheist or merely against organized religion. But I would bet my bottom dollar that there have been closet atheists in the White House.
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were deists.
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To add by couple of euro-cents to the "muslims" string of comments.
#83 David - yes of course there are muslims in many countries who would impose Sharia law if they could.
There may seem to be support for that from "everyday folk" in those countries ..... but it is an unfair comparison as they live in a world without comprehensive education, tolerant values freedom of information and thus they do not have all the facts to make other better choices.
Just as normal Russians in the cold war did not really want either communism or the destruction of America - they just didn't know any better from the propaganda they were fed.
Following on ... there are also Chistians who would be happier to make us all live under a Christian theocracy.
Both are wrong. Both religions have holy texts that are routinely reinterpreted to produce the required position or reinforce a political end.
It's never about religion - that's just the excuse the politicians use to get people to follow them.
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OK check Foxnews.
But it still goes back to Zombie who is the Blogger who actually found the article from a Chicago paper published in 1997.
If Obama had an office on the same floor as Ayers for a period of 3 years the idea that their paths "crossed" once is not true.
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130, chillO.
Well, considering what I know about the WHO, maybe both studies are wrong. I was working on an economic development program in a third-world country and, according to the WHO, just about everyone sufered from severe protein deficiency.
If they had gotten out of their air-conditioned cars and looked at the people (or maybe eaten with the tribes), instead of relying on inaccurate statistics, they would have known their research was faulty. In fact the diet was well above that required for a healthy diet. I finally figured out how they screwed up - and, believe me, they screwed up big time.
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#18 and 21 Marcus
Slightly surprised to find myself in agreement with you.
.... and then in #55
"Obama will probably have us in a war with Pakistan by next summer. I wonder how long it will be before Obama's supporters wish McCain had won. Believe me it wouldn't matter."
War with Pakistan ???? with what money????
Whoever is elected is going to have a hard time doing much of anything with the crippling budget deficit the USA has.
However given that I would rather have the guy who says he'll spend whatever moeny he can find on health and schools and so on, rather than "defense".
..... and to add some trivia. Before the 2nd World War it was called the War Department (Britain had the Ministry for War). Irony in the modern world.
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#12 seaspa
Great comment. Powell made a terrible mistake based on incorrect/incomplete info.
He has admitted his mistake. It's called responding to the situation.
This is what Obama wants to do re Iran etc. Rather than stamp hard with a big boot - which we now should all know doesn't work - we respond to the situation, and reappraise our position accordingly. How grown up!
Who was it who said "A man who beleieves the same at 50, as he believed at 20 has wasted 30 years".
It's not flip-flopping.
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#124 allmymarbles
Johns Hopkins is one of the most respected institutions in the world. You must be very proud.
On the problem of refugees - there were some 4 million Iraqi refugees in the time of Saddam Hussein. Many of them were well off people who could get out so it was a different kind of refugee problem.
The quicker Iraq gets back to some kind of normality, the quicker this current batch of refugees can go home. I hope it's soon.
On the Johns Hopkins reports - I thought about that a lot. I like to think that all people are pretty much alike and conspiracy theories come too easily. I generally don't believe them.
That's why I don't believe Colin Powell or anyone else in the West lied about Iraq. I believe they were led to it by intelligence from the Iraqi expat community - the 4M mentioned above - mainly the INC.
It was for the CIA and MI6 and others to evaluate that, they did it and published their findings for the first time ever - which said Saddam Hussein had WMD. That was probably because the politicians did not think they would be believed if they just said it without evidence.
Of course then the anti-war people said the intelligence was fake but I don't see what else the governments could do. In effect, they told the intelligence agencies to put their published words where their secret reports already were.
The Johns Hopkins team were being funded by the George Soros Foundation for whom this finding would be welcome. Having said that, my best guess is that the people (Burnham et al.) at Johns Hopkins probably thought they could not simply discard the Iraqi researchers efforts.
The Johns Hopkins people in the first report praised the Iraqi researchers for their bravery. The researchers had risked their lives to get this data. It would have been really difficult to say it was simply not credible.
The problem is that with a survey of this type - with a small sample (as I remember, the '100,000' report conclusion was based on only 23 actual deaths) - it is all too easy to get a 'demand characteristic', that is, the conclusion is what you want it to be.
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"136. At 10:42am on 21 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
OK check Foxnews.
But it still goes back to Zombie who is the Blogger who actually found the article from a Chicago paper published in 1997.
If Obama had an office on the same floor as Ayers for a period of 3 years the idea that their paths "crossed" once is not true."
Hmm it seems many other people may have crossed Ayers as well, including a couple of janitors.
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39. kecsmar wrote:
The link with Rageh Omaar was excellent. I always enjoy his reports. Does he now work for Al Jazeera TV and no longer the BBC?
I think he is free lance now, as I have read/heard/watched reports he has done from various media outlets.
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# 105
The British government has investigated the number killed in Iraq and supports the higher figures, including those published in the Lancet medical journal.
When I see absurd claims, I wonder whether the individual posting them is a propagandist, or simply a dupe.
It is a good argument for consulting multiple news sources!
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Post #117; exserviceman wrote: "I don't believe Senator Obama has told anthing like the full truth about his association with Bill Ayers [one of founder members of the Weathermen Terrorist organization in the 70's]
www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64"
This has been done to death. Obama was a child when Ayres was with the Weathermen, and since the current government does not regard Ayres as a threat to society, what's your point?
"You might not think that important, but a policeman was killed by a Weathermen bomb".
Not quite. The Weathermen and Black Panters were both investigated as suspects for the San Francisco police station bombing, but neither group was charged and no arrests were made. If you want to blame them, you will need to provide some evidence.
"Ayers & Co were planning a much larger bomb - but their bomb factory went up first killing three of them".
Correct.
"Ayers is linked to people [Black Liberation Army] who carried out a bloody robbery in the early 80's in which three innocent people died".
No he is not. After the Weathermen broke up in 1976, some of its members participated in violnet activities with the BLA. Ayres was not one of them.
"The BBC might want to check out the rumour that Bill Ayers may have ghost written part of Obama's Book. The suspicion is that the nautical metaphors come from Ayers [an ex-merchant seaman]"
This is absolute balderdash. If McCain ever uses a nautical metaphor, can we assume that Ayres co-writes his speeches?
Just look at the holes in that logic.
"If someone with the resources of the BBC can check Ayers previous writing with Obama's it may be a surprise indeed".
I think not.
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#132 Simon21
Well, I am sorry to be below your contempt.
From that position, I ask - what do you think we should do about Darfur ?
Do you think military force should have been used to intervene in Rwanda ?
You reject the proposal that military force should be used to save people's lives. What do you suggest ?
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I wish someone would say the same about socialists.
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Post #106; dceilar wrote: "If the US is not anti-Islam is the State going to give the Palestinians their land back?"
I wasn't aware that America had taken any Palestinian land in the first place.
Which part of the USA belongs to the Palestinians? Delaware? South Carolina? Wisconsin? Rhode Island?
Help me out here, please.
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52 Allmymarbles
It is on the record books that apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania and the Comoros. IF you were so long in the middle east, how many converts away from Islam did you meet?
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RE IRAN:
Those seriously interested should become familiar with the Carnegie Endowment
publications:
[Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE IRAN:
Those seriously interested should become familiar with the Carnegie Endowment
publications:
carnegieendowment.org/publications
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Obama taking a brak to visit ailing grandma: is this for real or is it another publicity stunt?
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I think the personal attacks on this blog are shameful. From experience, I have come to discover that those that are bullish, aggressive and abusive on the web are more than likely to be timid and lacking in courage in real life.
Having said that, I am rather bemused that some people on this board don?t know the difference between calling a person a RACIST, and saying that a person?s decision or action is racially motivated. I never called Collin Powell a RACIST, what I said was that his decision was racially motivated.Sadly, Collin Powell cannot convince me to the contrary. I have long admired Collin Powell and was rather surprised that he came out so openly to support one candidate over the other. His support would have been best served if it was muted.
My point being that Collin Powell?s endorsement is a poisoned chalice to both Obama & Mcain. If Powell and endorsed Mcain, the media would have gone into overdrive. They would have destroyed his credibility by linking him, Bush and Mcain to the war in Iraq. They would have claimed that his endorsement was expected, since he once endorsed Dick Cheney. They would have gone further to ask, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A PERSON THAT ENDORSED CHENEY??
By endorsing Obama, Colin Powell has successfully brought into the fore an issue that had been whispered in hushed tones, but clearly managed to stay off the radar. He has brought up the issue of RACE. I must credit Obama for being able to navigate around such a divisive issue up until now. That is why it beats me silly as to why Obama would allow Powell to endorse him publicly. What the average white voter sees ( this can be confirmed by blogging) is a black dude endorsing another black dude. Lets argue that Colin Powells motive were more informed, the problem is that, how do you convince the average white voter that your endorsement was not based on primal instincts. I am shocked that Obama can unknowingly let a divisive issue like race rare its ugly head just 2 weeks to election date.
I once maintained on this board that in politics, 24hrs is like eternity, whilst 2 weeks is way above eternity. Obama may be smart and eloquent, but sadly, he is na?ve. He behaves as if he has won the election, and has started to let his guard down. He is in for a shocker that may leave him and most of you disillusioned with America for a long time to come. I still maintain that Obama will lose the forthcoming election, and he will lose it because of his naivety and obsession for spin.
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140, chillO.
If you remember why they went into Iraq in the first place it will all make sense. It had nothing to do with Saddham. It had to do with oil and power. All one needs to do then is manufacture and excuse. I do not believe that Colin Powell, with all his top flight experience, could have been taken in. Bush was in on it and so was Powell.
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Good night. Actually good morning.
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The link between Weather Underground and BLA is Kathy Boudin and her son Chesa[an infant at the time of the Brinks robbery]
She took part in the robbery.
Kathy Boudin's father was a lawyer who represented Fidel Castro at one time.
Chesa Boudin is linked to Hugo Chavez in later times.
Just Google the names and +wiki to find the extensive wiki entries.
And you thought Obama's spontaneous attack on Columbia in the third debate was just an accident? Not so.
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Maybe you Americans and Brits could learn a thing from the Canadians and Aussies - and I quote “The Dubai-based investment group said Australia bettered other countries because of its strong economic performance, governance and high quality of life.
‘‘(Australia) has reinvented itself as a wealthy, service-oriented economy with good scores on liveability indicators, including health, charitable giving and effective governance,'' Legatum said.
"Strong norms or civic participation, robust health, and plenty of leisure time contribute to the high liveability ranking.''
"The Australian government earns high scores on corruption control and overall effectiveness, supporting the country's quality of life in many areas"
Maybe as Americans you should listen to us for once instead of having this attitude that your " the greatest country in the world - the land of the free - your freedom tower" ! YET I hear it chanted more and more then any Aussie or Canadian who both have the most liveable cities in the world voted over and over again. What is the point in democracy when there is obvious corruption in both the previous elections? DID the states really vote for the Bush Admin??? Why is it that this clip has not been shown in ALL forms of media: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hUPP_bdOo&feature=related
THIS was in a court and this man made the admission. If this happened in this country it WOULD MAKE MAINSTREAM NEWS and there would be mass protest. The difference between our countries is FAKE Democracy and real democracy - shame on you
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Sadly, in spite of Powell's brilliant statement which warmed my heart, I have to admit there is much truth in what proles has to add:
In sadness,Peace to all
ed
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The picture of stacked, naked, humiliated Muslim men in Abu Ghraib is not religious freedom by whatever rule you measure it. It is the result of the despicable actions of a Necon - Nazi U.S. administraton and is just the tip of the iceberg. The Iraq war, a modern day crusade, was started illegally by Blair and Bush, both Christian conservatives to get control of the Middle East oil supplies and to "kick" the Muslims' "butt". Conversely the Muslims ran a state in Spain after 700 AD with complete religious freedom for twice as long as the U.S. has existed (more than 700 years). Now that was truly brilliant considering when it happened. It was the invading conservative Christian crusaders who brought complete religious intolerance and the inquisition. During the last century the Allies knew exactly how to deal with Neocon - Nazis but standards of behaviour
have so badly slumped that people can no
longer see them for what they are. God help us if the U.S. continues down the evil path it has folowed in the last decade.
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Post #152; Parrisia wrote:
Obama taking a brak to visit ailing grandma: is this for real or is it another publicity stunt?"
She's just been released from hospital and is now convalescing at home. Do you think she's faking?
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# 152
Parrisia you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
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Chesa Boudin is the adopted son of Bill Ayers.
Hence Weather Underground links to BLA, BLA links to Castro. Chesa links to Hugo Chavez.
So no wonder Obama wants to talk to Castro and Chavez without preconditions. He knows people who can vouch for them...
Wow, no wonder Obama dosn't want to talk about him.
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Ah Justin
It seems you've been breathing that high altitude air again, that's only reserved for retired generals and politicians.
My American experience tells me a completely different story.
The America I met was beautiful, intelligent, welcoming and open.
The America I met was ugly, stupid, vacuous and closed.
And this is the dichotomy of America - it's both and one at the same time.
Hopefully America is going in the right direction, but say it's going there without a fight is just plain wrong.
The negativity of the Republican campaign can testify to that.
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# 156
Dear Exservicemen,
Your civvie name wouldn't be John by any chance, would it ?
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"153. At 11:18am on 21 Oct 2008, icetayoa wrote:
I think the personal attacks on this blog are shameful. From experience, I have come to discover that those that are bullish, aggressive and abusive on the web are more than likely to be timid and lacking in courage in real life.
Having said that, I am rather bemused that some people on this board don?t know the difference between calling a person a RACIST, and saying that a person?s decision or action is racially motivated. I never called Collin Powell a RACIST, what I said was that his decision was racially motivated.Sadly, Collin Powell cannot convince me to the contrary. I have long admired Collin Powell and was rather surprised that he came out so openly to support one candidate over the other. His support would have been best served if it was muted."
Perhaps you could explain the difference? Apartheid was "racially motivated" as was the holocaust.
"By endorsing Obama, Colin Powell has successfully brought into the fore an issue that had been whispered in hushed tones, but clearly managed to stay off the radar. He has brought up the issue of RACE. I must credit Obama for being able to navigate around such a divisive issue up until now. That is why it beats me silly as to why Obama would allow Powell to endorse him publicly. What the average white voter sees ( this can be confirmed by blogging) is a black dude endorsing another black dude. Lets argue that Colin Powells motive were more informed, the problem is that, how do you convince the average white voter that your endorsement was not based on primal instincts. I am shocked that Obama can unknowingly let a divisive issue like race rare its ugly head just 2 weeks to election date."
So you are effectively saying Powell cannot endorse Obama because he is black?
And you think that is not racist?
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Ref 153
"They would have destroyed his credibility by linking him, Bush and Mcain to the war in Iraq. They would have claimed that his endorsement was expected, since he once endorsed Dick Cheney."
Quite frankly, press coverage is not needed to link Gen. Colin Powell to the Bush Administration and the Iraq war. Regardless of whether or not he was used by Bush/Cheney, the fact remains that he was an active participant in the planning and decision-making that led to that unprovoked war. In fact, during his recent endorsement of Obama he acknowledged he supported - and still supports - the decision to attack Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power. What he objects to, and the reason he left the Administration, is because of the decision to occupy Iraq indefinitely.
Considering the fact that I regard the Iraq war a criminal endeavor, his endorsement of Obama is meaningless to me, but I suspect it may carry some weight among Independents as it does provide foreign policy credibility to the Obama campaign.
I plan to vote for Obama today (early voting) and hope he wins two weeks from now because another four years of Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/McCain and the rest of the Republican ideologues that have destroyed our image abroad, our economy, and eroded our Constitutional and civil rights would doom our country forever.
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"156. At 11:22am on 21 Oct 2008, exserviceman wrote:
The link between Weather Underground and BLA is Kathy Boudin and her son Chesa[an infant at the time of the Brinks robbery]
She took part in the robbery.
Kathy Boudin's father was a lawyer who represented Fidel Castro at one time."
And from this you conclude what, that Cubans should not have lawyers? That Castro financwed the weathermen?
Where did her father repersent Castro, in what court and for what?
That Castro and Obama are related?
"Chesa Boudin is linked to Hugo Chavez in later times."
And this is illegal? The US buys oil from Chavez, so the US government is also linked to him and gives him money.
"Just Google the names and +wiki to find the extensive wiki entries."
But keep hold of your common sense.
You could google to find the identity of the space creatures who killed Kennedy with their gamma rays.
"And you thought Obama's spontaneous attack on Columbia in the third debate was just an accident? Not so."
And you need to do some thinking and escape from your ridiclulous paranoia.
Or is your motivation more sinister? Jews and Blacks?
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I believe that Chillo touched on the truth at #140 when he fingered the pre-2003 expat Iraqi community for a lot of the miscalculations that were made.
Some of those former expats are now hanging around high office in Baghdad.
And the Bush/Cheney regime cannot come out and say that they were misled because (a) that would not suit their oil-driven purpose and (b) it would show them up for the incompetents that they are.
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142 websitejunkie
Ta. He is always worth watching, which ever channel he's on..
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Ref 152
"Obama taking a brak to visit ailing grandma: is this for real or is it another publicity stunt?"
Were you born in an incubator? I have no problem with people disagreeing with Obama's proposals or questioning his judgment and readiness to be President, but insinuating that he is visiting his ailing grandmother for political reasons is sickening.
Since I was diagnosed with a very serious medical condition my children and grandchildren have been visiting me often, that's normal human behavior; I think you are in desperate need of an attitude adjustment.
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#143 Xie_Ming
You have made that comment before and I have answered it before.
The British government did not endorse the Johns Hopkins reports.
Using Freedom of Information rules, a memo from the chief scientist was found which said Johns Hopkins' method was sound. It said nothing about underlying bias.
In the same BBC story which I linked to in a reply to you before it says:
Since then other scientists have questioned the method used as well.
I look forward to seeing your evidence that these are 'absurd claims' as you said.
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Oh dear McCain gonna win. Good old Boris has backed Obama!
Ps if those who don't know who Brois Johnson is. He is the Mayor of London:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson
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#154 allmymarbles
Whatever you may think of the motives of all of those involved, the policy of regime change in Iraq was instigated by Bill Clinton.
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Via Media (56),
Well said!
Peace()
ed
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It wasn't until 1978 that the US Congress passed the "The American Indian Religious Freedom Act". Before then the federal government could and would interfere with native spiritual practises.
Both here (USA) and in Canada history is replete with documented cases of abuse and religious intolerance. Whether you believe in Jesus/God/Buddha/Mohammed/... etc is not the point, surely it is whether you beieve and live the values espoused by such "teachers". Jesus taught us to be compassionate, taught us to love one another. He didn't put qualifiers on that. "Heaven" is not out there, past the blue yonder, we can achieve a heavenly state right here on earth by following the real message of all religions. The message is basically this; "Be Kind to all things, be generous of heart and spirit, and remember the next few generations". If we all followed that simple message, believers, atheists, agnostics all the world would be a nicer place.
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exserviceman @117: "I have a certain instinct for spotting people who are not what they appear.
I don't believe Senator Obama has told anthing like the full truth..."
I'm sure if the powers that be knew about your "instinct" they would have skipped the elections ( listening to all those millions of other pesky instincts) and simply asked you to make the choice.
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Post #156; exserviceman wrote: "The link between Weather Underground and BLA is Kathy Boudin and her son Chesa[an infant at the time of the Brinks robbery]
She took part in the robbery.
Kathy Boudin's father was a lawyer who represented Fidel Castro at one time.
Chesa Boudin is linked to Hugo Chavez in later times.
Just Google the names and +wiki to find the extensive wiki entries".
What does any of this have to do with Ayres, and what does any of this have to do with Obama? Nothing that I can see.
"And you thought Obama's spontaneous attack on Columbia in the third debate was just an accident? Not so".
There was no "spontaneous attack on Columbia in the third debate".
Obama responded to a point raised by McCain on the issue of free trade with Colombia.
McCain was talking about ColOmbia, not ColUmbia; he meant Colombia the NATION, not Columbia the American state!
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#158 Ed Iglehart
...and thanks to the anti-Iraq War campaign it has become politically impossible to intervence in Darfur where 7 year olds of the Fur, Zaghawa and Massalit are dying now.
I put the same question to you as I did to Simon21 - what do you suggest is done about Darfur and what would you have done about Rwanda ?
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Dear Domenick
Let us know when you've voted so that we can raise a glass to you.
Some of us who are confined to mere observer status feel that we have been sharing your progress towards today's big event.
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#147 Sankari
You are obviously not aware the role the USA played (and continues to play) in Zionism - just to keep the black man from controlling the Holy Land! You should do some research.
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For some reason, the moderators seem upset about the British government agreeing with the accuracy of the Lancet medical Journal's finding of the higher casualty figures.
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If there is some desire to suppress the fact that more than 100,000 Iraquis have been killed as a result of the aggression of the USA and Britain, we can offer the necssary links.
Is anyone interested?
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#165
Perhaps you could explain the difference? Apartheid was "racially motivated" as was the holocaust.
Are you suggesting Colin Powell is a racist?
I Certainly did not say so in my comment. what i said is that he cannot convince me nor numerous voters to the contrary that his endorsement of Obama is not racially motivated.
To suggest that skin color did not play any part in swaying Powell ( like most of you do )
towards Obama is laughable.
Lets face it, Obama has made history as the 1st Black man with the most realistic shot at the US presidency. to now suggest that the prospect of that didnt play out in Powells mind is ludicrous to say the least.
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The Iraq invasion was for (1) oil (2) Israel (3) advanced bases.
Retired Pentagon officials have so published.
Note that "our friends in the region" replaced the naming of Israel in one such book.
The adventure was a reprise of the motives of the British until 1932 (they also failed).
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I am both an American and British citizen Justin.
I am also an atheist. I have a mother who is Muslim.
These last two points effectively mean I cannot be US President in the current political climate.
I like to think that I would at least have a chance of becoming Prime Minister in Britain.
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Websitejunkie,
Good - you've put Boris's piece up - it is worth reading.
I liked the remark of a particularly left wing commentator who wrote recently "I am trying as hard as I can to dislike him, but I find that I just can't manage it"
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21. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Do you recall the Salem witch trials? That was just one of many examples."
As an historical aside, the actual roots of the Salem witch trials were however property and power. The town had developed and almost split into two parts. Very interesting exercise to see a map of the area which marks the homes of the accusers and the accused. Very much an East-West rift.
The charge of witchcraft being just a handy vehicle to attain the ends after all, not much physical evidence required and suitably weighty penalties at the time.
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#168 eightypercent
Thank you for the agreement - I am afraid I am a McCain / Palin supporter (albeit British) so you might want to disagree with me a bit as well to put things right.
Anyway (ungratefully) I said above that it was for the intelligence organisations to evaluate the Iraqi expats' material. Those agencies did and they publicly concluded that Saddam Hussein had WMD.
That chimed with the political objectives of the US government, the PNAC etc. but it still happened. The US and UK governments could not have gone to war against intelligence advice.
Remember as well (see an earlier post of mine) the policy of regime change in Iraq was started by Bill Clinton.
There is a great deal of wisdom after the event on the Iraq War. Still, nobody explains what to do about regimes which murder their citizens in large numbers.
The UN is specifically prohibited from action by its charter - unless the conflict is construed as genocide which is the probable reason why the Darfur conflict was not considered genocide in a UN report.
That and the Chinese watering down UN resolutions advocating sanctions on Sudan - because they want their oil.
Just like the Russians and French on Iraq.
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Post #180; dceilar wrote: "#147 Sankari
You are obviously not aware the role the USA played (and continues to play) in Zionism - just to keep the black man from controlling the Holy Land! You should do some research."
I know that the US is Israel's largest economic, political and military partner; that's old news. But my point remains: the USA has not taken any lands from the Palestinians.
In any case, I don't see how "the black man" is relevant to this issue. Palestinians aren't black, and neither are the Jews. And as far as I am aware, there is currently no attempt by black people to "control the Holy Land".
So... what was your point again?
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162. exserviceman wrote:
"Chesa Boudin is the adopted son of Bill Ayers.
Hence Weather Underground links to BLA, BLA links to Castro. Chesa links to Hugo Chavez.
So no wonder Obama wants to talk to Castro and Chavez without preconditions. He knows people who can vouch for them...
Wow, no wonder Obama dosn't want to talk about him."
_________
Wow Serviceman, your brilliant Neocon logic is simply overwhelming!
BTW: Close to Cuba and Venezuela lies Mexico, where Trotsky was assasinated. That proves Obama's links to the Soviet Union as well.
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52 allmymarbles wrote:
Certainly Abdul Rahman was found guilty of converting from Islam in Afghanistan in 2006 and was initially sentenced to death.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/afghan.christian/index.html
If I remember correctly there was much pressure from the West and he ended up being deported to Italy. Their constitution is based on Sharia law and considers conversion an act of apostasy.
Similarly, for those thinking that Obama's experience of Islam via growing up in Malaysia will herald birds twittering and the Sun shining, he too is deemed an apostate. That is solely for not following the faith of his father.
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# Icetayoa
Why don't you give it a break now ?
You've done poor Colin Powell to death and most of us have had to give up reading what you write because you've got us in a complete muddle about what you do think and what you don't think.
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Post #182; Xie_Ming wrote: "If there is some desire to suppress the fact that more than 100,000 Iraquis have been killed as a result of the aggression of the USA and Britain, we can offer the necssary links.
Is anyone interested?"
The number of civilian deaths can be debated ad nauseum.
The more relevant question is "Who killed them?"
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#184 Xie_Ming
You make these assertions yet I still see no links to evidence nor moderator-rejected comments.
I can assert that Barack Obama wants to use nuclear weapons on Pakistan (which I believe is absurd) and nobody can do anything about it.
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I wont take to heart much of what Collin Powell says. he tends to speak from both side of his mouth.
While he wants us to see him as championing the cause of muslims in America,he is the same man that labelled all NIGERIANS as corrupt. The question is, how many nigerians has he met? How many of them does he know to be corrupt? what is the ratio of those he knows to be corrupt to the Nigerian population of over 120 million?
He should give me a break. he is just as guilty as those he claim to be up in arms against, when it comes to tarring with the same brush,tribes & religious sects the American people know little about.
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80%,
Your wish is my command!
xx
ed
P.S. Thanks for the tufty mag. ;-)
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#188 Chill0
"That and the Chinese watering down UN resolutions advocating sanctions on Sudan - because they want their oil.
Just like the Russians and French on Iraq."
We'll have to add a lot more countries to that list, including the U.S, U.K, Canada, NATO etc. All of them were hungry for oil. They supported Iraq during their war with Iran in the 1980s. And I don't think sanctions would make any big difference. When sanctions are imposed, it's the common people who suffer.
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#185 ray564k
I am both an American and British citizen Justin.
I am also an atheist. I have a mother who is Muslim.
These last two points effectively mean I cannot be US President in the current political climate.
I like to think that I would at least have a chance of becoming Prime Minister in Britain.
I think even Catholics can be appointed Prime Ministers now!
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OK Weathermen and Cuba:
FBI files from 1976, recently made public under the Freedom of Information Act, confirm the connections between Weatherman, Havana, and Moscow. Weatherman leaders like Mark Rudd traveled illegally to Havana in 1968 to engage in terrorist training. There, camps set up by Soviet KGB Colonel Vadim Kotchergine were educating Westerners both in Marxist philosophy and urban warfare.
Thats from a fairly right-wing source, and as I am in the UK I can't back it up. Someone in the US with serious journalistic resources could check it. The only way to prove it is to go to the physical source - I can't do that over the Internet from 3000 miles away.
Since Ayers is actually a published writer, it should be easy for US based people to compare the writing styles of the two men.
Amazon is slow here in the UK, so I can't help you. If I am wrong, fine.
But how many times is it that the charismatic celebrity politician actually writes excellent prose. Not often, usually its a ghost writer.
Obama could be a polymath, Churchill was for example, but he could also be a clever charismatic con man.
Simple to check for US based folks.
I Challenge you to check.
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"after all America has a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant story to tell when it comes to religious liberty and tolerance"
... just as many other countries have a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant (sic) story to tell about their history of tolerance. And, just like many other countries, there are many instances in the US where intolerance and religious bigotry trumped open-mindedness.
Has the writer thrown away his participant-observer role go "go native"; see
http://www.sociology.org.uk/methpo11.htm
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76. wrote:
Many Muslims are decent people and would no doubt perform as well as president as someone any other religious persuasion or none.
The problem is with Islam itself.
Your whole argument can be used against Christianity as well. They too want 'World Domination,' And too can kill, persecute to get their word across. The crusades, persecution of the Jews, the Inquisition, Northern Ireland, the bombing of abortion clinics the list goes on (so does the Muslim atrocities).
Yet they have both done fantastic things in the name of progress. The Muslims translated the works of Aristotle and other Greek philosophers into Arabic, which was eventually translated into Latin, then latter into French, German and English; and set up some the worlds oldest centres of study.
The Jesuits did the same thing, so it's not the the religion it self but the people who reside in it. The people at the top - it's all power and politics, whilst everyone else gets tarnished with the same brush.
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Parissiaa,
Schade!Complain about this comment
exserviceman said:
My cousin's daughter's uncle's monkey once blew bubbles on a frosty day when Mercury was winking at Uranus...therefore Obama is a terrorist!
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>After all America has a brutal, brutal, brutal
>story to tell when it comes to foreign
>interventionism. Second to no other nation
> on earth in fact.
About that foreign interventionism comment: you're so right, Rome was such a pussy when it came to conquering the world back in the day, and Alexander the Great had nothing on the good old US of A when it comes to world conquest, and Genghis and the Mongols were peaceniks and pacifists.
Come to think of it, we probably should have let Germany have Europe in the 40's...we probably should have let the USSR have Europe in the 50's, and we probably should have let Japan have Asia in the 40's. Gosh darn our interventionism, and it's too da*n bad we didn't. Europe and the rest of the world are always expecting the US to come to their aid, be the world sheriff, and then they complain when we do. We are used to it, so just go surrender to somebody.
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And, no doubt you're some sort of cousin to both Obama and me.Complain about this comment
#132 Simon21
I am not sure what the 'Nazis' remark refers to ? Please explain.
Casualties in the Iraq war have been assessed many times and I have supplied many links in comments - including right at the beginning of the one you are commenting on - to those studies. You must have missed them.
The problem with that is that it does not take account of the number of dead that there would have been if there had been no invasion. As ever, it is convenient for anti-Iraq-war not to explore what would have happened if there had been no war.
Saddam Hussein had attacked both the Kurds in the north (using WMD) and the Shi'a in the south until he was stopped by the no-fly zones.
When the no-fly zones went there is every reason to believe that he would have continued these attacks. The Iraq War saved the lives of Iraqis.
It's not a fashionable view but sometimes facts and fashion do not coexist well.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#199 exserviceman
Con Man? You think McCain is a saint? And stop all that rehashing of the 70's and the 80's. Don't forget, Who do you think supported Osama bin laden in the first place? who gave him the weapons? the money? support for Iraq during it's war with Iran? I wouldn't call them "freedom fighters", by any chance.
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#197 paul939
I'm not sure it's the case with Sudan but sanctions have got much 'smarter'.
The sanctions on Zimbabwe were specifically targetted on named members at the top of the regime.
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I liked Proles' comment (6) because until I read it, I had been impressed by Powell's argument. But now I realise it was a piece of monstrous hypocrisy. That does not mean I disagree with what Powell said - it just means he shouldn't have been the one saying it.
And Seanspa's defence (12) of Powell against this type of attack, claiming that the fact that what he said "turned out not to be true does not make him a liar" is sophistry. His critics don't need to prove that he lied (although it is arguable that he stated what he did not believe) - they only need to accuse him of being reckless with the truth. And the 1.27 million deaths that have followed are attributable to his disregard for certainty and truth.
Don't make the mistake that because Powell has had a moment of decency and lucidity that that somehow makes him a good guy just as if he weren't in any way responsible for the blood of hordes of Iraqi men, women and children.
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Chillo(ut),
Why on earth would Obama use nuclear weapons on Pakistan?
The use of nuclear weapons is not a decision any leader would take lightly, especially on an ally of the west.
Pure fantasy.
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David-Cunard (I think it was) wrote:
"It is the civil aspect that gives legal validity to the partnership. Since the word marriage is so loaded, perhaps there should be a different one to describe the contractual arrangements between two consenting adults. "Partnership" sounds so commercial . . ."
It does, doesn't it? Always sounded to me like a business arrangement between two gay accountants . . .Here in the UK it is often referred to by the 'parties of the first part' or whatever it would be, as 'getting married' but with a kind of inbuilt ironic tone, I think.
Still, it's probably about the best phrase that anyone can come up with that steers clear of the "marriage is ordained by God for the procreation of children" thing that causes so many problems in some places.
It doesn't seem to cause much bother here in real life; two gay friends of mine 'got married' up in the north a couple of years ago and the entire village of a few hundred people, where they've lived together openly for more than ten years, turned out for the celebration.
After all, in most of Europe, I think, marriage is primarily a civil contract; in Britain, anyway, religious institutions (I hesitate to say only 'churches', because I'm not sure about mosques and temples and I can't be bothered to check) are 'licensed' (a bit like pubs) to perform them, and in France it has to be performed by the mayor, not the priest, before it's legal, I think.
And (76): jackashton148 wrote:
"The problem is with Islam itself. A little research on the web reveals Islam to be an intolerant and violent religion with the goal of total world domination. It can accurately be described as the ideology of Arab imperialism."
So you trust everything you read on the web, then? Insert 'fundamentalist', please; as in 'fundamentalist Christians'? Then tell me what the difference is?
I don't like broad generalisations, Justin. You're stirring again. And I'd like to point out that the fact that a particular law exists does not mean it is necessarily enforced. I knew one gay couple, for example, who had lived together pretty openly when homesexuality in Britain was still technically illegal, but, presumably like many others I don't know of, were never prosecuted. Or persecuted.
No law can be, or will be, enforced in the end if the will or belief of the population turns against it. Not without lots of armed police, national guardsmen, soldiers, guns and tanks . . .Now where have I seen film of that happening quite frequently, I wonder?
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Chill0,
I was wise before the fact, as were at least a million others who marched against a war for oil promoted on the basis of obviously trumped-up untelligence!Indeed, and this is an area of great difficulty. In response to your earlier question, I have no real answer, but it wouldn't be bombs....Peace to all.
ed
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172:
Oh no. Just when I was beginning to be almost certain Obama was going to make it, too.
(I forget who quoted a piece about it being hard to dislike Boris: it's quite easy with a little practice. Just imagine him with clown make-up, a baseball cap, bald, and wearing jackboots. Sort of like, er, oh, never mind, I'll just get a load of abuse if I mention any names connected with this presidential election. . .
I've tried to imagine Boris with his mouth shut so he can keep his foot out of it, but that's defeated even me.)
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The UK is a more liberal, tolerant society than much of America. 200 years ago it may have been religiously tolerant but now it no longer stands alone.
Tolerance and entrepeneurship made it a great country. Intolerance and nationalism will tear it apart if left unchecked.
For me this year's choice is one between a hope based future and a fear based one. Give me hope any day.
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Ah religion and politics again. Nothing is more divisive (except maybe football).
Issac Asimov once said something along the lines of..'When you deny yourself the possibility that you may be wrong..you start to play God'......There's the problem.
Just because you have convinced yourself that you are infallibly correct does not give you any right to impose your belief onto someone else. That should be the case regardless of color, religion, nationality etc etc etc.
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Someone who calls themself chill0 said.....
"Coalition forces in Iraq have not killed 'hundreds of thousands' of people. They have killed around 50-60 thousand at most"
Just the 60,000 is it? Phew, nothing to feel too bad about then. That's only twenty 9/11s. Hardly worth mentioning.
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, allmymarbles wrote:
If we are going to back to the beginning then every nation in the world would have a black head of state. So I don't buy it.
Unless of course your are a creationist - then it would be a white middle class gentleman called Adam! LoL
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Usually when I see that a fellow blogger has been felled by the magic powers of the moderators I feel a twinge of sympathy.
But now when I see that exserviceman has been pulled up, I feel .................... marvellous !
Thank you dear mods and I'll never complain about you ever again
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The activities of propagandists are sometimes unworthy of attention.
Are any sincere folk interested in:
(1) The USA/British motivations for the aggression against Iraq: (Oil, Israel & bases)?
(2) The reprise of the British efforts for oil and bases that ended in failure in 1932?
(3) The numbers killed in Iraq in consequence of the USA/British aggression?
(4) The legality and morality of "shock and awe" against the civilian population of Baghdad?
One poster above mentioned the "piles of naked bodies" at Abu Gharib and named other actions of the Anglo aggression. Can anyone be expected to forgive and forget such Judeo-Christian aggression?
[Those able to do research may want to read Gertrude Bell's reports about the earlier Iraq fiasco]
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# 218
Raises a valid point. We are all out of Ethiopia, about 60,000 years ago!
[For those who may not know, pale skin is an advantage in misty northern climes- we need Vitamin D].
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I see someone has accused me of being anti-black and anti semitic.
Racism is a useless idea, since it judges a person by skin color rather than the content of his or her character. Think of the talent that goes untapped because of it.
I am a supporter of Israel, although I admit they have carried things too far on occaison.
If you check Obama's policy positions on Nuclear power and defense, you will see someone against missile defense, and Americas deterrent ICBM forces. Its like CND all over again.
Since the US and Israel currently opperate an US X-band missile defense radar data linked to an Israeli Arrow ABM [defensive missile], I assume that will be shut down and scrapped under an Obama administration.
Just in time for the Iranians to conduct their Nuclear test. Don't expect "the one" to do anything about Hezbollah when that lot starts cross border trouble again.
Really I am beginning to think "socialist" isn't even close to describing Obama. The trouble US allies are going to be in...
The Cubans must be &*^%ing themselves laughing. The guy their intelligence service trained [ayers] grooms a candidate for President of the United States. And it works! he gets selected as a candidate...
Its a spy-chiefs wet dream.
And no-one says a word in the main stream media.
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1. At 9:18pm on 20 Oct 2008, eightypercent
Thanks for the link to Michelle Malkin, I have just spent twenty 'reading all about it'. Unique and different, his wealth about Barry is formidable. Informed voting is needed and to early vote is set your vote in stone.
202. At 1:05pm on 21 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Parissiaa,
"Obama taking a break to visit ailing grandma: is this for real or is it another publicity stunt?"
Schade
Ed, Did you mean "Charade"
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# 222 ~ Oh dear, spoke too soon.
So at the risk of prolonging this debate, tell us where, exserviceman, you have heard Obama say that he is against missile defence and America's deterrent forces. Just point us to the line in his policy documents that say that.
And the reason why "no-one says a word in the main stream media" may be attributed to the fact that what you say doesn't contain one smidgen of truth or reality.
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131 RomeStu and 103 David de Jong
Along time ago when Tony Blair was just elected leader of the Labour. I was at sixth-form.
The Head of Sixth-form was married to the former Northern Island Secretary, int the Harold Wilson government. He put himself forward to be the candidate in a East London constituency.
He urged me to follow in his footsteps, and put myself up for nomination for 2001. Alas he didn't get the nomination (won by Ona King; now George Galloway's constituency), and alas I didn't take up his advice.
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131 RomeStu and 103 David de Jong
Along time ago when Tony Blair was just elected leader of the Labour. I was at sixth form.
The Head of Sixth form was married to the former Northern Island Secretary, int the Harold Wilson government. He put himself forward to be the candidate in a East London constituency.
He urged me to follow in his footsteps, and put myself up for nomination for 2001. Alas he didn't get the nomination (won by Ona King; now George Galloway's constituency), and alas I didn't take up his advice.
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From Boris,
Count me in the latter group (for both reasons)!Good one, Boris!
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"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind
examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and
immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class
of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent national gifts.For happily the Government of the
United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under
its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
"May the children of the Stock of Abraham...enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants..."
George Washington, "To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport." 1790
These are words that make me proud of my country. Those who make Obama's candidacy an occasion for anti-Muslim filth might consider who spoke them, and that the Stock of Abraham includes Muslims.
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Doug,
No. "Schade!" is "Shame (on you)!" both in Yiddisch and "proper" German.;-)
ed
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#222
"If you check Obama's policy positions on Nuclear power and defense, you will see someone against missile defense, and Americas deterrent ICBM forces. Its like CND all over again."
Couple of quotes from Obama's website:
"An Obama-Biden administration will support missile defense, but ensure that it is developed in a way that is pragmatic and cost-effective; and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities until we are positive the technology will protect the American public."
"Nuclear power represents more than 70 percent of our noncarbon generated electricity. It is unlikely that we can meet our aggressive climate goals if we eliminate nuclear power as an option. However, before an expansion of nuclear power is
considered, key issues must be addressed including: security of nuclear fuel and waste, waste storage, and proliferation."
OK, I've checked his policy positions. Now what's your point?
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Doug,
Are you winding me up ?
80%
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The most bigoted intolerance I've seen here comes from you Obama supporters.
Just because someone supports a different candidate, and your candidate is black, does not make them racist or intolerant.
All of the candidates have their faults and all of the candidates have the potential to be a good president.
It is the duty of each citizen to decide for themselves, who he or she wants for the office, vote for that candidate, and then to allow neighbors to choose and vote without any form of coercion or harassment.
Your hatred of Dubya has driven you insane.
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225
I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevence to my initial post. The UK has always been politically tolerant towards minorities. In fact 2 out of the last 4 labour leaders have been from the minority Welsh and Scottish ethnic groups.
Although, in retrospect, that might not help Obamas cause as a minority. LOL!
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136.exserviceman wrote:
OK check Foxnews.
You've gone from Zombie to Fox news I wonder which is worst?
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228
I especially enjoyed GWs use of the word "liberal"!
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Here's a great piece from a moderate Republican. The party needs a heavy defeat in order to rid itself of the divisive forces of Rove/Cheney and Limbaugh.
http://larrygellman.blogspot.com/2008/10/will-republican-party-survive-and-does.html
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A small suggestion to those vehemently opposed to an Obama Presidency:
Perhaps if enough of you borrowed from the Buddhist Monk playbook and took to burning yourselves to death in public...
Maybe then McCain might have a chance.
I dunno, just a thought.
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If Obama says that he's taking time off to visit his sick grandma, I beleive him.
Who would lie abpout that.
However, he is a politician, so I don't beleive his campaign promises or anything he says about John McCain.
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What was posted here, being said by General Powell, is so true , but, he also has to know what Senator Obama has spoken about his defense budget, if he is to get elected.
General Powell has served his country most of his life and, he knows the trouble the military has with keeping everything ready for use, training problems, and every other financial problem the military has.
Then Colin Powell gives his support to a person that has never served in the military.Senator Obama states if he is elected he will cut billions from defense spending. He wants nothing nuclear and no research and development for new and /or improved weapon systems!
I'm disappointed with Colin Powell.
If anyone wants to check this out...do so.
Many of the American military enlisted families, today, are paid under the poverty level.
Colin Powell knows this, and he is giving his support to someone that is jeopardizing the national defense and the military struggling to preserve it !
Is it just me or does this sound strange?
Maybe another reason ?????????
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#222 exservicenutbar
I doubt even dick dastardly could come up with such an elaborate plan as you are suggesting:
"Here Mutley, lets find an eight year old boy, groom him for the next 36 years until he is old enough to become the first black president of the USA. Once that easy step is out the way no-one can stop us winning the wacky race, i mean destroy America from the inside.
ah ahahahaha ahahaahha
you are completely insane.
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#233 David_de_Jong
"In fact 2 out of the last 4 labour leaders have been from the minority Welsh and Scottish ethnic groups."
You should learn to use smilies when you're making a joke!
Otherwise people on this international blog might think there are Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish or British "ethnic" groups - as opposed to mongrel nationalities who mostly don't care that they are a mix.
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Post #222; exserviceman wrote: "The Cubans must be *^%ing themselves laughing. The guy their intelligence service trained [ayers] grooms a candidate for President of the United States. And it works! he gets selected as a candidate..."
This is not only illogical; it's downright irrational.
Ayres is not trained by Cuban intelligence, and he did not groom Obama as a candidate for POTUS.
I don't know what universe you currently inhabit, but it is not shared by any sane person.
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#239
I already did check out the nuclear point - see my post 230.
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McCain seeks donations from Russia..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/3232557/John-McCain-asked-Russian-mission-for-help-fighting-Barack-Obama.html
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Mr. Powell could not have explained what is happening in America any clearer. The Republican party has been invaded by religious fanatics who have helped split his party for the worse. Muslim, Christian, Catholic we are all part of the melting pot that is America. When the Republicans speak of small town values they speak of one specific ethnic group based predominately in the Midwest of America. It is time to unite a country that is bankrupt and divided and McCain and Palin will only add to the divide and eventually the financial collapse of this country(Iraq, Afganistan and McCains dream Iran$$$).
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#241
A little harsh - Neil Kinnock was not only Welsh, but ginger - how's that for an oppressed minority? ;-)
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Oh and for Americans and parts of the world that is being polluted by Neocon news or Fox Sky News please do not comment on any blogs or on any educated discussions because your obviously misinformed.
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241
I don't think the Welsh and Scots would agree with you about
1) The mongrel mix and;
2) That they don't care.
Both are extremely proud that they're not English. Northern Ireland is a bit different due to their Scottish and later, English background.
Please for your own safety, don't repeat your statements to any Scots or Welsh you might meet in a pub!
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Some people mention Iran as though it were something even more evil than Bush's America.
Why not learn some facts?
The Carnigie Endowment has three good articles concerning Iran.
carnegieendowment.org/publications
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172. At 11:57am on 21 Oct 2008, websitejunkie wrote:
Oh dear McCain gonna win. Good old Boris has backed Obama!
Ps if those who don't know who Brois Johnson is. He is the Mayor of London:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson
The torygraph, I mean telegraph url is:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/21/do2101.xml
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
eightypercent:
There is an actual Obama campaign video, it is not new, but it is on the web.
I almost fell off my chair when I heard it: he makes Jimmy Carter look like a vicious US imperialist. Honestly, its like the UK CND organisation from 1983 come back from the dead.
He does say he will take US ICBM's off alert and try to get them disposed of, hopefully with the Russians getting rid of theirs.
The problem is, I read him as wanting to scrap the US minuteman force no matter what. That is because I don't trust lawyers or diplomats not to sign up to something that "sounds good" but neglect verification.
Would you really trust Putin and his FSB state not to hide half theirs nukes? This is the guy who authorised the dioxin poisoning of a Ukrainian head of state he found not acceptable to Russia.
That and the polonium 210 poisoning of a Russian dissident here in london. A really cruel way to kill someone. Not good.
If Obama becomes president and gets 60+ votes in the senate he can appear to make a treaty with Russia then gets rid of US ICBM's. Only Putin has hidden his mobile ICBMs and spoofed the CIA - easier to do in a country with a state controlled media.
Then you, and the whole world, are in deep do do. You could ask the Chinese for help, but their price might be high. Taiwan as a down payment perhaps??
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"The Cubans must be &*^%ing themselves laughing. The guy their intelligence service trained [ayers] grooms a candidate for President of the United States. And it works! he gets selected as a candidate...
Its a spy-chiefs wet dream.
And no-one says a word in the main stream media."
Very strange, indeed, ex-serviceman. Your brilliant analysis has exposed the most heinous plot ever hatched to undermine the US, and pointed out the conspiracy of silence which the media, no doubt also in the pay or service of the Cuban intelligence service, maintains about it.
Either that, or it's the ludicrous ranting of a really wacko conspiracy theorist nut job.
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For OldNat and David De Jong,
A true Scot!, and I'm proud to be yet another mongerel who considers himself Scottish (and Virginian/Canadian/Floridian)!
Och Aye!
ed
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178. wrote:
I put the same question to you as I did to Simon21 - what do you suggest is done about Darfur and what would you have done about Rwanda ?
I would of intervened, but with a UN force-with mandate, (just like Iraq 1). Both interventions would of been legal.
Iraq 2: This time it's personal! Wasn't justified and wasn't legal, and has stopped countries from intervening where it would of been the correct thing to do.
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"Colin Powell is giving his support to someone that is jeopardizing the national defense and the military struggling to preserve it !
Is it just me or does this sound strange?"
The US rose to world power without a standing army. The fact of the matter is that there is zero, and I mean zero chance the US will be invaded. Who'll invade? Canada? Mexico? Japan tried invading Alaska in WWII and got a bunch of soldiers suffering frostbite in the Aleutians for no sane reason.
As a consequence, having an enormous military has done very little but get us into trouble and make us waste money. You could argue it was necessary when the USSR was an aggressive power.
True power rests on economic strength, not military. We ought to cut the military in half and use half the money we save to provide good jobs for those who lose their jobs. It would be easy to do. The military is by far the least efficient way to employ anybody. (highest proportion of overhead to wages).
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#222,
I would applaud Obama if he is indeed against missile defence, as I believe every self-respecting taxpayer should be against the government taking a trillion dollars out of their pocket and making a bonfire out of it - and the waste is the least of the criticisms one could level against the "missile shield". We could also discuss how it only works sometimes (and other times they can't even get the anti-missile rocket to launch!), is stoking the fires of international unrest, is ineffective against a MIRV delivery system, and can be rendered mathematically useless. Bush himself gave a big speech saying that the US should be more worried about a nuclear explosive in a suitcase than in an ICBM warhead.
If the accusations against Obama and #239 (Punkin) are accurate, this is a plus in Obama's favour. Punkin claims that the military's servicemen are underpaid and its equipment at risk of falling into disrepair. I'd also add that pensions, health care, and other benefits (such as giving servicemen a top-quality education, which I believe many Republicans including McCain voted against) are not given the priority they deserve. I would argue that all these things can be paid for if Obama indeed does axe the trillions of junk defence spending - canceling the missile defence paperweight alone might be enough to finance some appropriate salaries for your troops.
Instead you want a president that will line the board members of defence contractors' pockets by funneling ludicrous amounts of your money into science fiction fantasy weapons, summer blockbuster fodder, billion-dollar aircraft that blow up because of a pebble on the runway or moisture on the electronics, etc...
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After I heard Colin Powell's interview on Meet the press this last Sunday and the seven minutes tirade that he unleashed on his own Republican party, my rage notched down to "Extreme Strong Dislike" for this man.
George W Bush is mentally chanllenged and Cheney/Rumsfeld are manifestations of pure evil, but Powell was one of the good guys. In the same interview he admitted that because they did not find weapons of mass destruction, the whole war has now been been rendered illegitimate. Do you know how big this is? So think about this. Powell is part of the administration that took the sole responsibility of going to war, sent troops into a country that had not attacked you, killed millions of people in Iraq, sent an entire country back 50 years, sowed the seeds of hatred that will come to fruition and haunt American generations for years to come, and killed men women CHILDREN. And now with with no remorse and no sense of guilt the war is useless, wrong, should have never happened???!! .
And yet he can sleep at night? Even though I hate this entire administration for what they have done, Colin Powell was one of the people who had seen war, had experienced war, had seen what war can do. He should have stood up and said clearly that he cannot stand by and let America go to war until the reason is crystal clear that war was at all needed.
Well Powell did what he did and nothing he can do can change that, but you can see some of that nagging feeling of guilt eating away at him as he left the Bush administration after 4 years and now comes back to make this huge endorsement.
Well its a start. Maybe some day he will get up and ask that Bush/Cheney and all his cohorts who took this country to war be impeached, tried for war crimes and ceremoniously hanged. I know this may never happen but a guy can dream can't he?
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ref #249
That you would do a moral equivilent between a progressive democracy and an intolerant, religous oligharacy shows where you are coming from.
U.S Freedom of Religion and speech
Women are allowed to speak their minds
They als o do not have to wear burkahs
You can criticize your leader without beheading
Can people to that in Iran?
Iran also supports terrorism throughout the Middle East.
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Oh, well, it had to happen...
Peace and grits
ed
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#248 David_de_Jong
I'm Scots, and my username stands for Old Nationalist!
I didn't think there were many left (outside the BNP) who believed in ethnic nationalism.
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Ed, Honest, I just didn't know, thanks for the lesson.
80% Humm, winding you up,.. if I take your meaning that I'm trying to upset you, no.
232. At 2:43pm on 21 Oct 2008, Reuben34g
I've stated that I may vote for Obama, but still raise doubts and questions and I get lambasted here. Pay it no mind, as most believers in the 'messiah' factor feel a 'religious threat' from questions. :^0
240. At 2:59pm on 21 Oct 2008, squideyes
Though I agree that long term plans seem 'strange' to those who live for 'instant' gratification, but your showing that you know nothing of communist planning. They work with generational planning in nearly everything they do.
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Just saw this while catching up on the last few hours .... maybe someone else has already said this, but I couldn't let it lie....
#152 Parrisia wrote:
"Obama taking a brak to visit ailing grandma: is this for real or is it another publicity stunt?"
I'm lost for words. Give us some evidence that the old lady is faking it, or retract your unworthy comment.
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254
He's also a superb cook. He appeared as a contestant on the BBCs Celebrity Masterchef. They left out the fact that he's managed a number of restaurants though, as he was touted as an amateur cook. Just goes to show how much you can trust Auntie Beeb!
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eightypercent:
There is an actual Obama campaign video, it is not new, but it is on the web.
I almost fell off my chair when I heard it: he makes Jimmy Carter look like a vicious US imperialist. Honestly, its like the UK CND organisation from 1983 come back from the dead.
He does say he will take US ICBM's off alert and try to get them disposed of, hopefully with the Russians getting rid of theirs.
The problem is, I read him as wanting to scrap the US minuteman force no matter what. That is because I don't trust lawyers or diplomats not to sign up to something that "sounds good" but neglects verification.
Would you really trust Putin and his FSB state not to hide half theirs nukes? This is the guy who authorised the dioxin poisoning of a Ukrainian head of state he found not acceptable to Russia.
That and the polonium 210 poisoning of a Russian dissident here in london. A really cruel way to kill someone. Not good.
If Obama becomes president and gets 60+ votes in the senate he can appear to make a treaty with Russia then gets rid of US ICBM's. Only Putin has hidden his mobile ICBMs and spoofed the CIA - easier to do in a country with a state controlled media.
Then you, and the whole world, are in deep do do. You could ask the Chinese for help, but their price might be high. Taiwan as a down payment perhaps??
The campaign webpage paragraphs must be read carefully. Without reprocessing its not possible to safely deal with spent nuclear fuel rods after they have done the first "cooling down" period in under water pools.
Therefore, because Obama is against reprocessing and the storage facility no new Nuclear plants can be built. As the old plants wear out, they will have to be shut down and dismantled. Perfect, keep us dependent on Chavez oil.
The paragraph on missile defense could meen anything, but you can be sure there is an interpretation that lets Obama shut down the Radars in Alaska and Israel/UK because they can't "guarantee" safety.
Obama is a lawyer. NEVER trust a lawyer on what you think a paragraph meens - it always meens something else than what the average person might think.
The longer the paragraph, the greater the trickery.
Obama is going to gut the US military and leave you helpless. My hat is off to the Cubans, what a cheap way to weaken your nemesis. Awesome intelligence work.
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websitejunkie,isn't one of the problems with darfur and the UN that china is blocking action? When the security council cannot agree, because 1 country has a vested interest, what to do? It seems there are only 2 choices - do nothing or act outside of the UN.
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222. The Cubans must be &*^%ing themselves laughing. The guy their intelligence service trained [ayers] grooms a candidate for President of the United States. And it works! he gets selected as a candidate...
Its a spy-chiefs wet dream.
I think it's time for your medication!
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I seem to remember Reagan claiming that the USSR fell because the USA outspent it in the arms race and the Soviet economy collapsed trying to match it.
From what ex serviceman is saying, he advises the USA to go the same way.
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227. At 2:38pm on 21 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
From Boris,
"Huge numbers of voters, whether they admit it to themselves or not, will hesitate to choose Barack Obama for President because he is black. And then there are millions of white Americans who will undoubtedly vote Obama precisely because he is black, and because he stands for the change and the progress they want to see in their society."
Count me in the latter group (for both reasons)!
Good one, Boris!
That's rather articulate for Boris. (check out his Olympic speech on table tennis - it's wonderful). He didn't say blimey once! I wonder if that was ghost written LoL
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Who has more credibility on questions of national defense, Colin Powell or some anonymous person who posts on a blog (Punkin101 #239)?
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Post #258; eemanrush wrote: "So think about this. Powell is part of the administration that took the sole responsibility of going to war, sent troops into a country that had not attacked you, killed millions of people in Iraq"
The USA has not killed millions of people in Iraq. Even the highest estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths is less than 1 million.
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246. At 3:08pm on 21 Oct 2008, AxisofOval wrote:
A little harsh - Neil Kinnock was not only Welsh, but ginger - how's that for an oppressed minority? ;-)
And what about Blair he's a Northerner, but he hides it well!! LoL
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261
If that's the case, why are the Celtic nations pushing for more independence? I agree with it, by the way, if only to give you GB back. :)
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#21 marcusA
You are right! The Salem witch trials turned out to be a dispute over land between two different towns or familys, something like that. So it turned out to be greed actually, and they used fear and religion as a cover-up. Wow go figure! Today it would'nt be so easy to convince people they are possessed by a witch or demon... wait accept maybe for SARAH PALIN!!!!!
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People on this list, I am (happily) surprised.
Everyone seems to have suddenly become quite reasonable, even the ones that I had learned to associate with rather extreme views one way or the other.
One has to wonder if this is not after all a result of the words spoken by Colin Powell.
Not that I do not share some of the misgivings about that person. After all, he did lie to the UN, even though he was in a position where it is hard to believe he did not know better or did not have serious doubts. And the result of this lie was instrumental in starting a war that directly or indirectly cost the lives of thousands of people. And he did not resign when he could have. But maybe he felt that by staying, he could at least limit the damage to his country and others. Hard to know for sure, and he may deserve the benefit of the doubt, while others don't.
But many of the things that he said in his recent announcement go at least in the right (left?) direction.
All countries have, or have had, their moments of intolerance and bigotry or misplaced nationalism, and no country is really in a position to give lessons to any other. One might deplore the current bigotry, fanatiscism and obscurantism displayed in some countries. But one only has to remember the Holy Inquisition and the various wars of religion to be reminded that we Europeans are no examples.
One might also deplore the fact that although the majority of the US population are no fanatics, foreigners often have the opposite impression lately. I believe that this is due to the fact that the fanatics always scream louder than the rest, and for that reason tend to be seen as more numerous that they are.
But there is also no doubt that, to foreigner's eyes, it has seemed in the last 8 years as if a minority clique of ultra-religious and ultra-nationalist fanatics has been calling all the shots in the most advanced and most powerful nation on Earth, and that citizens of that country have assisted, without reacting much to it, to the largest rollback of the individual liberties their country was once famous for.
I honestly don't know if any politician, once elected, can by himself do much about this, or if nowadays they are so beholden to the various interests and pressure groups that backed them into getting elected, to be able to "do the right thing" according to their own convictions and conscience. I don't know what Mr McCain is like, inside himself. At the beginning, I thought he was sufficiently a maverick not to fall in that trap.
But I just cannot believe that Mr McCain appointed Mrs Palin as a VP candidate out of his own conviction that she was the right choice for the job.
The other side is probably not much better really. But all in all, Mr Powell was right to say that at least Obama can be "electrifying" to the outside world, which the other candidates cannot ever be, not anymore.
Now whether that makes one a better President and Vice-President of the USA for the US citizens, I cannot know, and only the future will tell. I wish them luck however, and luck for the rest of the world too. In this case, I think one does not go without the other. What happens in the USA matters.
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#159 rockColumbia
Nice point about the Muslim dominion of Spain (8th - 15th Centuries) where there was enormous religious freedom and Jews, Christians and Muslims lived alongside each other in relative peace and prosperity.
It was after Ferdinand and Isabella retook Spain for Christianity (and yes, it was viewed as a crusade, if never called that) that intolerance, forced conversions and burnings began as the Spanish Inquisition took hold.
History is importnt because it goes in cycles.
Also interesting to note that in the renaissance much of the "re-birth" of classical culture was only possible as the Muslims of the Caliphate and the Orthodox CHristians of Byzantium had NOT DESTROYED all the pagan (!) texts by such evil philosophers as Aristoltle, Plato, Socrates etc - as had been done throughout libraries of Western Europe by Catholic monks.
Peace to all
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Ex-saneperson,
And, for your contributions, the longer and more repetitive, the most worth scrolling past.Peace to all (even you)
ed
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If Obama becomes president and gets 60+ votes in the senate he can appear to make a treaty with Russia then gets rid of US ICBM's. Only Putin has hidden his mobile ICBMs and spoofed the CIA - easier to do in a country with a state controlled media.
Then you, and the whole world, are in deep do do. You could ask the Chinese for help, but their price might be high. Taiwan as a down payment perhaps??
Please go and get help!
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There was some childish commentary that ignored the masses killed for the benefit of the USA Neocons and their legalist mentors.
Rather, try facts:
The Carnigie Endowment has three good articles concerning Iran.
carnegieendowment.org/publications
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#204 DcTomlins wrote
"Come to think of it, we probably should have let Germany have Europe in the 40's...we probably should have let the USSR have Europe in the 50's, and we probably should have let Japan have Asia in the 40's. Gosh darn our interventionism, and it's too da*n bad we didn't. Europe and the rest of the world are always expecting the US to come to their aid, be the world sheriff, and then they complain when we do. We are used to it, so just go surrender to somebody."
Please don't get all moral high ground about American military action. We are all terribly grateful that you helped in WW1 and WW2, as obviously Britain did not have the resources to win either war without American help.
BUT please don't think it was for anything other than economic interest that you showed up .... late.
1917 - WW1 and Dec 1941 in WW2, after Germany declared war on you.
Thanks for your help.
And our comparison to Ancient Rome shows great lack of historical awareness. Rome spread it's power throughout the Mediterranean, but once part of the Empire, you were a citizen. In the 200s they even had a Black Emperor - Septimius Severus. Hadrian and Trajan were both from Spain.
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262
Doug, the reality is, what has the USA got that Russia doesn't and is prepared to go to war for?
It has more oil and gas, more minerals and has become relatively self sufficient in food compared to the communist years.
It's territorial ambitions are minor and more defensive in nature, much as are the USAs. Georgia is a case in point. After so many years I can't believe that Georgias move on the two seccessionist states wasn't approved and encouraged by GB on the basis that the next administration might not sanction interference.
The USA was a little perturbed at the idea of Soviet missiles in Cuba yet can't understand Russias objection to the reverse situation.
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This discussion is making me dizzy.
When David de J. drops in that "he's a good cook too" I don't know whether we're talking about Boris Johnson, Neil Kinnock, Vladimir Putin, Hugo Chavez, General Colin Powell or Fidel Castro.
Turns out to be Hardeep Singh Kohli (good man).
I blame it all on exserviceman.
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Hi Justin,
I'm a part-time fan of yours, but I do think that you tend to view America through rose-tinted glasses sometimes. There is a massive divide between the constitution and what it stands for (a piece of paper), and actuality (how Americans really think).
In the same way that socialism was an idea born out of a desire for equal opportunity, justice and equality, but in practise, failed miserably. America is one of the most vehemently religiously fundamentalist countries in the western world and growing… under the Bush doctrine, medicine to poor AIDS victims across the world comes with a religious stipulation.
What Colin Powell says is indeed true, but the sad reality is, Americans are unlikely to ever, allow a Muslim to become president. Not for 100 years or more.
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#238 reuben wrote
"However, he is a politician, so I don't beleive his campaign promises or anything he says about John McCain."
McCain is also a politician, so are Ron Paul, Ralph Nader etc etc -- do you equally disbelieve on principle their campaign promises or anything they say ...... or do you reserve this closed-mindedness just for democrats.
Ciao
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# 279
There is book about Cordoba under Muslim rule, and all that you say is true.
However, fundamtalist Islamics came over and destroyed the library, etc., well before Ferdinand and Isabella made their "Reconquest".
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Socialists offended
;-)ed
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dougtexan #262
I'm pretty familiar with the workings of communism but saying that Ayers groomed Obama to be president so that he could take down America is beyond even the commies superior planning power!?.
I'm thinking that when Obama was 8, it was the 1970s and the ethnicity issue was more prevalent than today. Pretty far fetched to think a black guy could become president at that point. Surely Ayers and his compadres would pick a more suitable candidate to groom rather than betting on the outside odds.
Don't you think?
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What a great blog today as it inspired some great conversation!
I think Americans may have a problem understanding Justin Webb's point of view because we are too close to the situation. The other posters who disagree who aren't American may have been deceived by the things they have heard. American is a vast expanse (both geographically and ideologically) and can occasionally appear very intolerant of others.
However, I've spent the last few months teaching a college class that ponders what it means to be American. In this class, I have brought in editorials and arguments from other countries to provide a counterpoint for American values and assumptions.
When we spent time looking at religious belief in America, we discovered that for all of our intolerant talks, we tend to be most intolerant of people for their jobs or financial wealth than for their religion. We are much more likely to think less of an illegal alien working in a strawberry field than of someone practicing a different religion. In fact, a recent Pew Study found that most people in America believe that their own faith is not the only way to get to heaven. (The study also found out that approx. 20 percent of American Atheists believe in God--which proves either we're very flexible or very ignorant!)
When we looked at editorials from other countries about Islam, we found that countries that tend not to follow organized religions were less likely to accept Islam. We also discovered a study of Muslims that claimed Muslims in America feel more accepted than Muslims in Europe. The only caveat to the study (and one that supports my earlier argument) is that Muslims in America tend to be better-off financially than Muslims in Europe.
Of course, someone else can find a study that says we're all as ludicrous as the people who equate Muslim to terrorist, but my experience and research has shown that Americans are a bit more complex and capable of critical thinking than that.
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#46
And some states dictating only the missionary postion. That definitly comes indirectly from the pulpit, no pun intended. Sinners one and all!!
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I just thought about this: the name Barack is Arabic, African(swahili) and even sounds like the hebrew name Baruch. We are a lot more alike than we think. I have lots of muslim friends- they are good people. America should befriend the good muslims instead of demonising all of them.
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275
Henry VIII did his part, as well, when he burnt down the monastries and destroyed their libraries.
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"262. At 3:40pm on 21 Oct 2008, DougTexan wrote:
240. At 2:59pm on 21 Oct 2008, squideyes
Though I agree that long term plans seem 'strange' to those who live for 'instant' gratification, but your showing that you know nothing of communist planning. They work with generational planning in nearly everything they do."
Really, could you explain?On the face of it this is either meaningless or ridiculous.
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Regarding the (alleged) schemes of Castro and Ayers, from the Burns Unit,
Indeed!And still I hope
ed
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281
80%, I also blame exserviceman. There is so much on the web that you can find something to justify almost any stance. South Africa has become the victim of our ex President Thabo Mbekis late night surfing of the AIDS denialist sites. The result is deaths of an almost genocidal magnitude, with more to follow.
This morning our friend and sometime builder died despite two years of ARVs from the US backed catholic mission. The SA government wouldn't supply them because he's a Lesotho citizen. He's also the 3rd to die in his small family.
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Honestly, its like the UK CND organisation from 1983 come back from the dead.
ex service man.
you're no longer a service to anyone.
Guess what CND were not as crazy as the right.
Go practice cleaning your gun
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They work with generational planning in nearly everything they do."
So they THINK AHEAD.
wow criticise them for that.
If they are that good at it can we have them on the ticket?
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287. At 4:11pm on 21 Oct 2008, squideyes
Great point, I hadn't thought of the "race factor".
Once again
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237. At 2:55pm on 21 Oct 2008, Clone_of_Jesus wrote:
A small suggestion to those vehemently opposed to an Obama Presidency:
Perhaps if enough of you borrowed from the Buddhist Monk playbook and took to burning yourselves to death in public...
Maybe then McCain might have a chance.
I dunno, just a thought.
-------------------------------------------------
Damn good idea.
no really it is a Grrreat idea
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# 292 ~ Simon
General planning is all to do with # 289 middlecroony and his sudden entry into the debate with an endorsement of the missionary position.
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#273 David_de_Jong
Anyone with a good Dutch name like yours (but living in the UK) should know better!
The concept is called "civic nationalism", and it's a very common one. It's the basis of the USA.
Mazzini put it best when trying to conceptualise Italian Nationalism in the 19th century. Since concepts such as common language, ethnicity, religion etc didn't work, he concluded that "a nation consists of those who consider themselves to belong to it".
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#293
Ed, you might need to translate that for the majority of the readers here...
They'll aye be in a dwam o'er it ken.
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"206. At 1:13pm on 21 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#132 Simon21
How do you know this - the coalition forces have refused, disgracefully and contemptuosly to count the casualties they cause. Even the Nazis got this courtesy.
I am not sure what the 'Nazis' remark refers to ? Please explain.
We counted the Nazis casualties, the coalition stated numerous times it did not count the casualties it caused.
Very indicative.
"Casualties in the Iraq war have been assessed many times and I have supplied many links in comments - including right at the beginning of the one you are commenting on - to those studies. You must have missed them."
My point stands the coalition refused to count Iraqi casualties, that doesn't mean others did not do so.
So what? All the dead are the resoinsiublity of the coalition, theyinvaded and took over the country.
"The problem with that is that it does not take account of the number of dead that there would have been if there had been no invasion. As ever, it is convenient for anti-Iraq-war not to explore what would have happened if there had been no war."
Pure speculation, the fact remains the coalition invaded and caused the present situation.
What might have happened otherwise in term sof Iraqi body counts is totally irrelevant. We can all come up with different scenarios, that fact remains the coalition is in charge.
"Saddam Hussein had attacked both the Kurds in the north (using WMD) and the Shi'a in the south until he was stopped by the no-fly zones."
And Saddam might have been killed in a minor palace coup, or he might have been killed in an accident or caught cancer.
None of which wuld have required the deaths and injury of hundreds of thousands.
Not to count those who died because of the failure of basic services.
"When the no-fly zones went there is every reason to believe that he would have continued these attacks. The Iraq War saved the lives of Iraqis. "
Complete fantasy killing people does not save them.
You cannot know what might have happened in Iraq without the invasion
What we do know is hundreds of thousands have been killed and injured
"It's not a fashionable view but sometimes facts and fashion do not coexist well."
It is not a sensible view, never mind how fashionable.
The facts are that hundreds of thousdands have suffered. What might have happened is not actually fact, but speculation.
Learn the difference.
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297#
Doug, that doesn't answer my question and is a poor way to avoid the discussion. Race was brought into the equation to display how silly your logic is. If they were gonna plot to get an anti-US president, chosing someone who has more of a chance would be beneficial. Simple as.
Please answer the following clearly:
Do you believe that Obama's run at the presidency is a communist plot originating in the 1970's to bring down America or not?
that is what your posts suggest.
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allmymarbles (#38), Jeannette Rankin of Montana was the first woman in the US House of Representatives, elected in 1916.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
oldnat (#30), only Maine and Nebraska do not use the "unit rule" and allow the electors to be divided.
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Sudden entry? Missionary position?
Ooohhh Errr Missus!
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exserviceman
The CND movement started in the '60s in protest at nuclear missiles being stationed on british soil. We were the 4 minute warning system for America, and the first to be targeted in case of war.
I would say our concerns (I was 16 at the time) were extremely valid. Especially during the Cuba crisis, in which we had no say.
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As a BRIT not english , not welsh and not from northern ireland, not whats that other one?
I have a great time when the welsh or whatever call me English.
they get confused for a while because I am a white guy.essentially.
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# 294
David de J.
I am so sorry for your builder and what is left of his family.
You open up a whole new (and much more relevant) subject. I met ex-President Mbekei during a state visit he made to England and have never been able to reconcile the charming man with his 'denial' theory about Aids.
I'm sad for you my dear - but maybe our nonsense on this site acts as some sort of therapy.
80%
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300 Old nat
I was actually born in England of an english mother and dutch father. He was flying for the Royal Dutch Navy at the time and was half ethnic Dutch and half Indonesian Malay. I currently live in South Africa.
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.... and I'm still madly jealous of #305's moniker.
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Mr. Webb,
A brief word to say I really enjoy your blog.
As a frequent analyst (if not apologist) of all things American for audiences abroad, you certainly have your work cut out for you.
I myself think the job would be just about impossible. The country is so immense, with so much going on, there is ample material to justify almost any impression, any assessment of us. However good, however bad. However inspiring, however cringe-inducing. It's all here.
Your colleague Jon Kelly hit the nail on the head when he said "I wouldn't dream of claiming that any of the people I met were representative of America as a whole. How could they be, in a country so magnificently vast and diverse?"
Well, perhaps that point is exactly the first point to be made when you speak (for us) to the rest of the world.
At any rate, keep up the good work!
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#280
" And our comparison to Ancient Rome shows great lack of historical awareness. Rome spread it's power throughout the Mediterranean, but once part of the Empire, you were a citizen. In the 200s they even had a Black Emperor - Septimius Severus. Hadrian and Trajan were both from Spain."
And, in the case of Hadrian at least, openly gay!
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BTW
Great video Ed.
One thing certain thing about Obama is that he has certainly inspired some classy music -
I don't think that even Mista Kurtz himself could deny that.
Almost time for "One More Day" to be put up again.
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Meanwhile, a morbid feline goes "boing!".....
The second mouse gets the cheese!
;-)
ed
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RE: #280
Let me get this straight. We get blamed for starting an unprovoked war. Next, we get blamed for not coming in unprovoked. Sheesh. We can't win with you people.
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#286 Ed
I enjoyed your link. It seem Americans like to 'accuse' people of being Socialist without knowing what it actually is. I recommend this book as a good starting point with an introduction by the excellent Eric Hobsbawn.
George Bush is in the same company as Chavez - he nationalises banks! Does this mean that Chavez is going to sell the US cheaper oil now that Bush is one of his comrades?
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Chill0
50 or 60 thousand? wow!
I have a story for you.
Remember the night George Bush was on t.v. saying Sadaam Hussein has not complyed and that they would start thier military strike? Well at that time i was a bartender at a predominantly republican restaurant. When G.B. said that everyone at the bar started clapping and whooping like the Chicago bulls just won another playoff! I was in total shock and disgust and had to run into the bathroom to cry, because i knew innocent people and soldiers would be killed. I will never forget that night. We have many hurdles still to overcome in the U.S.
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#311 David_de_Jong
It was your offer to give us GB back that confused me. I thought you wanted to repatriate Gordon Brown.
Or were you offering to send us George Bush?
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It looks like in a couple of weeks the USA will elect Obama and show the world that a majority of its population have truly gotten over the race-based tribalism of the past.
My guess is that religious-based tribalism is going to be a much tougher nut to crack.
Having schools with religious affiliation will most likely prolong the problem.
If a school has a policy of only allowing in one race, many people would strongly object. But how about a school that only caters for one religion? It seems that it is more generally accepted.
Anyway, who would have thought when Martin Luther King made his 'I have a dream' speech, that there would be a black president within one generation. It just shows how things can change. So there is reason to be hopeful.
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Down Home
Peace and grits
ed
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#314 AxisofOval
"And, in the case of Hadrian at least, openly gay!"
Not a concept that had any meaning in the Ancient World.
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# 320 Oldnat
Gordon Bennet !
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Meanwhile, the real stories this year are buried. On May 22, 2008, Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., threatened that the Federal United States Government will take over the oil industry.
Hofmeister (oil executive) said: "I can guarantee to the American people, because of the inaction of the United States Congress, ever-increasing prices unless the demand comes down."
The Shell exec said paying $5 at the pump "will look like a very low price in the years to come if we are prohibited from finding new reserves, new opportunities to increase supplies."
Democrat Maxine Waters responded, in part, "And guess what this liberal would be all about. This liberal will be about socializing … uh, um. …"
The congresswoman paused to collect her thoughts.
"Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies. …"
The oil executives responded, according to Fox News, by saying they've seen this before, in Hugo Chavez's Venezuela.
[Find it at u-tube.]
There are no checks and balances, or free markets, when the government controls the Commanding Heights of the economy...only shortages, high prices, and a decline in the contribution from achievers to the national treasury. (When gov't raises taxes, they collect fewer taxes.) Democratic Party Absolutism, or One Party Rule as in the USSR, is always hostile to business.
In another example, Justin Webb hasn't posted anything entitled "Biden Warns Americans of Potential Jewish Holocaust." Yet the warning, if ignored, will have worldwide consequences, according to Biden, because dictators and terrorists correctly perceive Obama as weak. At Townhall, Hugh Huitt considers Biden's warning:
[...]
"Mark my words," the Democratic vice presidential nominee warned at the second of his two Seattle fundraisers Sunday. "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama..." (Go to townhall for full quotation of Biden's warning.)
[...]
Translating Joe Biden is sometimes impossible, but not these remarks. Senator Biden has been receiving the sorts of briefings that nominees receive, and he's been to the sort of meetings where our allies talk candidly of the gathering storm they see coming closer.
And Biden suspects that Obama will react to the coming crisis in a way that demoralizes the country and which shatters public confidence in Obama.
Biden dismisses the ability of the American military to deal with far flung threats, tells the audience "Mark my words," and then preemptively implores them to "be prepared to stick with us," after telling them "we're gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him."
[Note to Biden, this voter would be all about what is right and good for the country, not the Democratic Party or your career.]
The most obvious interpretation of [Biden's] ramble is that an Iran-Israel confrontation is coming, and that if Obama is president, America will sit it out with, at best, words that do nothing to support Israel or deter Iran.
[...]
That wouldn't happen under [Country First], President McCain.
When even Joe Biden tells you what is going to happen under a President Obama, there's no way to deny the reality of the defeatism and retreat represented by a vote for Obama-Biden.
[...]
Joe Biden knows what's ahead if Obama wins. Let's hope that voters are paying attention.
[end of townhall comments]
Recall that extreme left Obama said earlier this year that Iran is not a threat because it is a tiny country. I wonder how his center right supporters will perceive renewed American civilian casualties as well, since there have been exactly ZERO since 9/12 until now (thanks to Bush), contrasted against 10,000 civilian casualties between 1979 and 9/11. A weak US President emboldens our enemies; they have become emboldened even at the prospect of an O presidency. Oh, I know, facts on national security and a potential second Jewish holocaust don't matter when you are trying to make Democratic Party history in the dreamworld of kumbia where evil doesn't exist.
A random thought from the People's Cube:
World to USA: 'Fix world ecomonic crisis so we can get back to hating you'
Anybody notice the complete lack of criticism from the usual anti-Americans since Bush supported the bail-out?
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80%
Thank you.
His (Mbekis) stance is a warning to even intelligent people who think they know better because of what they read on the web.
His brother was horrified by his interpretation of the situation.
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320 Old Nat
I was offering Gordon Brown, although Bush might also benefit. At least you've still got some oil!
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#110. allmymarbles: "David. That story has been bothering me so I read it again. . . So forget everything I said. I neither believe it or disbelieve it, and I have no comment."
Just as well I scrolled down from your earlier post! But the juxtaposition of the two quotes (about 18 years and your hearing) was intended to be vaguely amusing. I'll try do better next time.
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A clarification
Peace and hominy
ed
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apparently the links to the article in the new york times does not come up and the whole letter is deleted, so ED
Michael Pollen wrote an open letter in the New york times to the president.
8000 words long but worth it.
to all that wonder why america is wrong it is very informative and it applies to most.
google it and get IT.
Also notice the front page has a pic of a crowd at a Palin(forget Mc Cain) rally.
there is a figure who is wearing a mask of a Obama in the front row. they are white as me.
But they are just fun guys eh?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/us/politics/21carolina.html
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320 or maybe great Britain itself?
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How about tolerating a religion that is dedicated to destroying you physically, not just your faith?
Has Powell ever seen the opinion poll results that show that even 'peaceful Muslims sympathise with their militant brethren?
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#323
""...openly gay" - not a concept that had any meaning in the Ancient World."
Indeed.
Thank goodness we're all so much more enlightened now...
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Regarding the Ayers, Obama thing:
O.K., we know that Ayers is a far-left commie
subversive. That's not really the question here.
Did Obama have an extensive link to Ayers,
and does that make any difference? I believe
that he did, and the very clumsy attempts that
he made to cover it up annoyed me. Obama
has repeatedly lied about it.
But, unless some hard evidence shows up,
such as concrete proof that Chavez put some
money into Obama's campaign, there really isn't
anything beyond innuendo at this point.
I'm not saying that Obama isn't a crypto-something,
but without solid evidence, there isn't much
point for the Republicans to bring it up, IMHO.
Still, Obama lying about the connection rankles
me, and he should have opened up about it
earlier in the campaign (as, for example, when
Hillary brought it up), rather than trying to cover
it up. As in other plumbing situations, it's not
the original action which damns a politician,
it's the subsequent cover-up which does it.
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#299 eightypercent
I merely meant that the referendum in california on gay marraige is as rediculous as the states interfering in our priviate bedrooms, and i'm a she.
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# 76
Is Islam a cult or secret society of sorts that needs to be examined in light of the views of those who have left it??
It is as though we are incapable of coming to our own conclusions by researching the faith on our own, without taking from those who very obviously oppose it.
I dont need to ask Hitler about the useful contributions of the European Jewry that he helped eradicate any more than its wise of me to formulate my views of a faith by the hateful tripe that you would have me believe about it.
Interesting that you talk about the "enslaved Hindus" (who helped the tiny Muslim minority govern India for centuries). Even Mughal emperor Aurangzebs adminstration was known to provide financial resources towards the upkeep of hindu temples...
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325. jcputn5349 wrote:
The most obvious interpretation of [Biden's] ramble is that an Iran-Israel confrontation is coming, and that if Obama is president, America will sit it out with, at best, words that do nothing to support Israel or deter Iran.
I hope so too. America could use diplomacy, but getting involved militerly is dangourous to put it midly, the US would only exhasibate an already worsening situation.
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In everyday life, we tend to accept each other according to action and thought rather than label and color. Unfortunately, in matters of national importance, Americans can sometimes lose their way when racial, gender, economic, religous.... hell, almost any label will do.... prejudices are invoked by our political leaders. Is this some sort of ugly leftover from our country being a dumping ground for religous and economic undesirables? Who knows. I do know, we, as a country, are trying very hard to grow up and judge this election by real issues. This is something I thought I would not see in my lifetime. Bravo, Mr. Powell.
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#288 secondfly wrote ....
"a recent Pew Study found that most people in America believe that their own faith is not the only way to get to heaven. (The study also found out that approx. 20 percent of American Atheists believe in God--which proves either we're very flexible or very ignorant!)"
Faith is lovely, but all religions have dogma, that technically you MUST believe in if you which to adhere to that religion. No religion promotes this fluffy panacea of tolerance.
And atheists who believe in God ..... whatever next, Republicans endorsing Democrats!!!! ooops
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I do not feel that the majority of the American population are racists. There are radical groups in the southern states as well as in middle america, but the majority of the population (especially on the coasts) aren't racist. Anyone who has a blind hate of this country should visit New York or San Francisco (albeit we are the radical "liberals" of this country in San Francisco). I for one cant stand that America is the most conservative "Western" nation in the world. Hopefully this will all change Nov. 4.
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#291 David wrote
"Henry VIII did his part, as well, when he burnt down the monastries and destroyed their libraries."
Absolutely correct, but the "pagan" classical texts were long gone before H8.
Also Henry's English reformation of the Church also had nothing to do with religion - it was all about politics. Henry considered himself a catholic until his death - just upset with pope over mariage, land, appointment of bishops etc = politcs.
Dissolution of the Monasteries came a few years later - cynical land grab to finally win the centuries old problems between church (back when there was only one option in Europe) and state.
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# 335 Middlecroony
Sorry about the gender mistake. Me she too.
Some subjects which I never debate in an on-line discussion :
- Israel
- The Balkans
- Abortion
- What people do with their love lives or in their bedrooms
But I liked your intervention !
80%
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303, squideyes wrote:
"Do you believe that Obama's run at the presidency is a communist plot originating in the 1970's to bring down America or not?"
Got me, I was blowing you off. So now that I have some time, I'll answer.
Key phrase, "Communist", an active political group throughout the United States from middle 1800s thru late '70s and possibly early 1980s, when mysteriously for some, they dissolved from the mainstream, by choice and plan. (Hidden and found in context and belief in the Democratic party)
As to the phrase; 'bring down America', I don't even think that is possible anymore than it would be possible to 'bring down Engalnd. The change, is only down based on your point of view. Many would say that the 'England is down' from the glorious days of Empire, when the sun never set on its glory.
Now to answer as to Barry being groomed and led to assendency, yes. Race card be damned, his charisma, intelligence and ability would be hard not to see, even in Barry Obamas younger years. His being a mixed blood may be a plus in the race baiting world known only in the United States.
Did you ever follow the money in this canidates life, travels, schools and even more expensive schools. How about his long line of radical (wealthy) associations? Where are those mainstream non-radical associates?
Yes, I've read many of your posts, mostly in agreement. Your analitical ability is quite visiable, and I believe you as well can see that his 'Presidency" is not an accident, nor the product of chance, but of planning, placement and finance.
I do not believe the Chi-coms have any hand in this, we have our own, viable hidden and active communist party here. As we have our own hidden and active Capitolist Corporate party as well.
Even slow minds can see which of our popular political parties represents which hidden one. The republicans are currently losing the upper hand, either by plan/choice or accident on thier part, or better planning and choices on the 'other' side.
Our presidency is a puppet post, influance and turbulance from every possible direction, only truely defined by events brought about from the outside, as even Biden noted, the third party in play has grown, and now wants its stand in America as well, and will test Obama, and it is NOT the Commies.
Think Islam
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Why are some Americans surprised that the Muslim world, and even some "peaceful" Muslims are both angry and afraid with Americas' actions in the ME?
Republican America is spreading democracy in a similar fashion to the way the colonial missionaries spread christianity and is treating the Muslim nations as barbaric unbelievers who need to be saved from their own ignorance.
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#325, jcputn, #337, websitejunkie, If there was a
war (even a limited one) between Israel and Iran,
there is no way that the US could sit it out.
During a high-intensity conflict, a lot of EW (electronic
warfare) is involved, as each side attempts to cloak
disposition of its forces. The uncertainty of the
situation would probably draw us in, much as
WWI was started by an assassination in the Balkans.
If anything could cause WWIII, this would be it.
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Colin Powell is a great person. The irony is that Islam has nothing to do with this campaign, yet Islam is once gain in the center of discussions and having to defend for no real reasons. What Powell said is very true, it is what McCain and Obama should have said to their supporters earlier own. I guess better they keep quite of the truth lest they lose some radical votes. This is what is known as looking for power at all costs. Powell is a different Man, straight forward. What is amazing is that no Muslim scholars, countries, etc will talk as straight as Powell. If Powell were ever running for a President, I would not only vote for him but also volunteer to campaign for him. This is the kind of leader the world needs. A man of wisdom and fairness in his words. His few words defeat the 28M copies of Islam propaganda DVD's circulated recently.
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America is complex, yes of course, but it is not more complex than anywhere else. We may see the Russian actions in Georgia in good and bad terms, but it is more complex when one tries to understand it close up. America can also be reduced to simple terms without much effort if one wanted to do so.
But the American story is one of myth and legend. And the myths and legends prevent a disspassionate appraisal of reality and what needs to be changed. The founding fathers apparently anticipated a constitutional convention perhaps every generation or perhaps every hundred years at least. They did not think they had created perfection, or even close to it.
When people who want to move to a more perfect union, which requires a willingness to be critical if necessary, are accused of being unpatriotic then we have an element of nationalism with a great potential for distorting even the best intentioned people.
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1. "please don't think it was for anything other than economic interest that you showed up .... late.
2. ...In the 200s they even had a Black Emperor - Septimius Severus. Hadrian and Trajan were both from Spain."
1. I've got to agree with my Republican-friendly compatriots here. To attribute entirely cynical motives to US foreign policy, while understandably tempting, is overly simplistic. The US, like any nation, always acts from a mix of motives, some of them sincerely good ones.
And if you say as I do that the US was wrong and stupid to engage in both of its present wars, it seems strange to excoriate it for not intervening somewhere else. If I think we were fools to send our troops overseas to Afghanistan and Iraq, and I do, while I can advocate sending them to Darfur, I ought to be able to understand why we would be reluctant.
2. From what I've read, what's remarkable is that Rome does not appear to have been racist--perhaps owing to its putative origins as a den of thieves of mixed background.
On the other hand, you'd be hard to find any classical Greeks who WEREN'T profoundly racist other than Alexander, who was widely despised for treating the Persians as equals.
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#332 immaokochua wrote..
"How about tolerating a religion that is dedicated to destroying you physically, not just your faith?
Has Powell ever seen the opinion poll results that show that even 'peaceful Muslims sympathise with their militant brethren?"
Islam is not dedicated to destroying you physically. It is a split religion (like Christianity) which spends much of it's time in-fighting (like Christianity did until recently). The actions and words of certain leaders and mullahs have no more relevance to Islam's doctrine, than hate-filled "bomb the Arabs" rhetoric from certain sections of the USA has to Chistianity.
You know there are also many peaceful Christians who sympathise with Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and the other neocon groupies who began this thing when they invaded a sovereign (and admittedly not very nice) nation who did not threaten them.
Sadaam Hussein was a dictator but he was a secular muslim despised by Al-Quaeda and the fundamentalists for taking American money all through the 1980s in his war with Iran.
There was a great cartoon in Private Eye way back in 2003, not long after it all kicked off. A General giving a briefing on situation has discovered the "link" between Iraq and Al Quaeda ..... by underling the letter "Q" in each word.
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325. At 5:25pm on 21 Oct 2008, jcputn5349
Hear, Hear! Well said and nicely written.
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206, chill0:
As ever, it is convenient for anti-Iraq-war not to explore what would have happened if there had been no war.
Saddam Hussein had attacked both the Kurds in the north (using WMD) and the Shi'a in the south until he was stopped by the no-fly zones.
...... The Iraq War saved the lives of Iraqis.
It's not a fashionable view but sometimes facts and fashion do not coexist well.
______
As said above, it is pure speculation to suggest that without the invasion even more people would have died.
I actually think Saddam couldn't have 'achieved' that kind of distruction and chaos.
Saddam didn't look too good right before the war, you know.
However, the main point, in my humble opinion, is that saving Iraqi people and introducing freedom and democracy has never been the intention.
Rushing in, quick military victory, disbanding virtually the whole official structure , then standing by as the country disintegrates - doesn't sound much like there's been a plan to create some sort of better society.
No idea what the goal was, to be frank. The justifications for the war have changed so many times, it makes my head spin.
Bush sr. stated he didn't bring down Saddam in Iraq I. to keep the region stable.
Which makes sense, considering he was not only an evil dictator, but also a vicious opponent of Syria, Iran and pretty much any extremist Islamic movement.
So what if he killed a few thousand then and again, they were locals !
No offence, but since when do the US have a problem with THAT ?
Goodness, Reagan loved the guy !
Maybe it was just time for a war, and poor Iraq was a sitting duck, weakend by a decade of sanctions, no support in the region, a desolate army, convenient terrain, government disliked by the population, has oil, too - what's not to like ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
As a bonus, war-time leaders usually get re-elected.
____
Fritz Kraut
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Some posters are trying so hard to draw connections between Obama and domestic or foreign persons and or governments with what....socialist tendencies, or is it dictatorships, or protests? You underestimate this man's education and intelligence - he is what he's been saying he is for more than the past decade. He says he is an American democrat - he idealizes the US democratic system of government and he sees where the US government has strayed from that ideal, from the Constitution, from ethical behavior, from the good of the 'common man' and he wants to change it back on course. None of the 'connections' you post would detract from that summary of his intent or imply that he would (or would need to) use 'terrorist' or illegal means.
As to Powell (and McCain) - I believe they were patsies to the current administration and more importantly to the administration's puppeteers - I believe McCain still is, and Powell has turned his back on it in disgust..but yes, he did play the game and he had the millions in the bank to prove it.
As to 'terrorists' it's hard to think of things more disgustingly treasonous than fabricating facts to justify a war, or 'cronyism' that leaves, for example, Haliburton with rising stock and profits even now, or a treasury secretary who has secret Sunday evening sales of banks when there's a price three times that on offer (fortunately Wells Fargo prevailed...). STUPIDOS is all I can say.
Stupidos, and that is why America is still chock full of religious and recial prejudices too...and why McCain Palin are still over 40% in the polls....just plain stupid.
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to Sankari (160)
I am not saying she's faking it. I am just wondering whether he is "exaggerating" breaking off the campaign to visit his ailing white grandma - the operative word here being WHITE
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GnA, for some answers to the questions you asked concerning Obama and his ties to the weatherman, check out Malkin and some of his archives. You will find additional links to other informative sites...
I, as well, find the more I know of Obama, the more I question my choice to support him. Sure would be sad hace sent him money and then vote for the other guy. Just one reason to not vote to early.
....just words, just speeches.......
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I live in the South, specifically Louisiana. You will not believe how many people are bigoted and staunch republicans. They will never accept or concede that the country is in turmoil and will repeatedly blame the Democrats for everything. Their ignorance about history is mind boggling and it appears that their only source of information are the Fox propaganda channel and other extremist right wing radio shows etc.
Most of these people are poor and will accept or connive to get any Gov't handouts, yet remain Rebublicans and they are almost invariably white. The negroes are equally biased with their corrupt local politicians and equally racist views.
It has to be seen and experienced to be believed.
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David de Jong - from your posts I gather you live in South Africa.
What a beautiful country - I've spent 2 wonderful holidays there, and understand how devastated you must feel at the current situation.
To see the miracle that Mandela worked be allowed to atrophy is criminal. As so often is the case, the more gifted the leader, the more useless the next ones are.
Shame Mandela isn't immortal really.
Anyway, how's this for an idea (stay with me, it will be relevent, I promise)
On my last trip 2 years ago I visited Robben Island - the island prison where countless prisoners of the apartheid regime were held - Mandela included - often without trial or access to lawyers.
It is now a tourist attraction, and the tour guides are volunteer ex-political prisoners. It was one of the most appalling, fascinating, heart-wrenching experiences of my life....
so here's the point .....
.... will be be visiting "Gitmo" in 10 years time and having ex-prisoners take us round. Or will we simply "forget" it ever happened and move on.
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Shift change in the Obama blog room
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ref #330
I read Pollen's areticle and there was some merit to. In regard to the regionlization of food services. But there are part of the argiculture industry where it i not realistic for widespread production.
When I read it though I did not get that he was blasting america.
Also he should be pointing to other nations more than the U.S as we have one of the best food production systems in the world.
In this economy the money he wants to spend on new programs is unrealistic.
But he does teach at Berkeley which promotes spend spend spend and tax, tax ,tax
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Okay, I’m a noob here, and I just went through this whole post (excepting exservicemans later ones, of course).
Cambodiacalling,
Yeah, I held McCain in positive regard, right up until he started in with the same tired fearmongering. That fearmongering is the basic problem right now, as far as I'm concerned.
DominickVila,
"Fearmongering" is part-n-parcel of all religions. You just can't have a religion without it. Some think this is just a Protestant thing, like "white guilt". But it's certainly easy to see in the world's three (so-called) "great" monothiesims.
Candace9839,
It's not just religious extremists. I suspect that that they have the most difficulty concealing this kind of hatrid -- why they so often make asses of themselves. But the root of the problem is intrensic to religion itself. As Christopher Hitchen's makes abundantly clear ("God Is Not Great -- How Religion Poisons Everything"), it's time for all of us to grow up and dump our childish religious thinking.
Via-Media,
"No amount of logic" will prevail over any faith-based decision, either. (Far be it from me to defend Nancy Grace. I just don't see much difference between her "faith" and the fundamentals of religion.) It's time for our "dream" to dump religion altogether.
jackashton148,
I think you're on the right track. Please apply the merits of your argument to the other monothiesms.
phenry,
...as if Southern Baptist wasn't a "belief system" (to take an example). I see nothing special about Islam here.
remotedesigner,
I think that following one's "heart" is exactly what got us into this mess -- I know people who voted for Dubya for this very reason. It's time to follow our noggins for a change.
aquarizonagal,
I think you mean "righteousness", not "socialism". (Ed, thanks for the "socialists offended" clarification.)
eightypercent,
I think marriage hinges on the concept of religion controlling sex. I'm fine with "commitment" if you can settle that in legal terms. (We're really talking about legal matters like eligibility for social services and how to split assets in a divorce, no?)
newtotalfootball,
"When will be the first athiest president?" Amen, Brother! (Let them come out of the closet, if that's the case!)
RomeStu,
I couldn't agree with you more, except that I think this problem is ALL about religion.
Malcolmd3111,
Have you seen that bumper sticker: "Get real! As if Jesus would own a gun and vote Republican!"? I think religions have had plenty of time to communicate the "heavenly state", but please take a clear-eyed look at the actual results. (And why is it so much easier for religions to give a convincing description of Hell than of Heaven?) Your "basic message" ("Be kind to all things, be generous of heart and spirit, and remember the next few generations") is a little beyond kind -- and why do we need religions for that anyway? Juvenile as it is, I don't recall it from any religious creedo.
websitejunkie,
Why are you so apologetic? Why is it not the religion? Why must you say that the problem is "the people at the top"? (Even though I agree with your basic sentiment about decent people.)
secondflyonthewall,
I wonder when "American" thought-gymnastics will just dump this "complexity", carry through our "critical thinking", and give religion it's due (the rubbish bin).
And isn't Mormanism a form of Islam in America?
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345. At 6:07pm on 21 Oct 2008, gunsandreligion
GnA, I know this is a stretch, got to deliver a sign so I see the answer (if any) later.
Do you think that the Biden sound bite on 'BHO facing a global test' might be a major attack on Israel, and a warning that mainstream America may dislike BHOs hesitation to assist and subsequent destruction of Israel?
I actually think any hesitation will result in 'nuclear holocaust', leaving no doubt to the death toll.
The other senario is closer to home, and involves the Ayers connect to Venezuela. Do you think we might not stop the take over of Cuba (Castro is gone or soon to be) by Venezuela?
Cuba is close, communist, has oil and under Russian influence just like Venezuela.
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#104. vor_tecks: "A large proportion of marriages these days are a purely civil occasion, therefore marriage is no longer an exclusively religious affair."
I don't know what the statistics are over here in the USA, but my guess is that civil ceremonies are not as frequent as in the UK. Generally speaking, it is those who hold a particular religious faith who are leading the crusade against extending marriage to same-gender partners. American couples still dream of the big 'white wedding' (even if they have a child or the bride happens to be pregnant walking down the aisle) so there's a cultural divide. US States have individual constitutions, and this November the electorate in a couple of them will be asked to amend these to ensure that "marriage" is solely between a man and a woman. Of course, in Britain, the government simply introduced the law and that was that. Not so simple here!!
Again, it's largely the word which is offensive to many, but as 'eightypercent' wrote, it hinges on "commitment". I would hazard (another) guess that most Americans really don't care, but nevertheless, "marriage" is the buzzword which rattles their cage.
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Colin Powell is a great leader, and leaders who stand for what they bieleve and think, that there is a difference with which the world is and the way it is ought to be.
It is obvious that someone people of most a few chose their time but this time."Time" chose someone and thats Barrack Obama.
He is the most popular man on earth.
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Obama is NOT a Muslim.
It shouldn't matter if he was .... but he's NOT.
We're badly off topic here everyone (and yes, I've been pulled into it on previous posts).
Like the most insidious propaganda it divets our attention from real issues.
I say again OBAMA IS NOT A MUSLIM
Peace to all
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My top priorities this election year are the economy, fiscal discipline, healthcare, education and the preservation of Constitutional and Civil Rights at home, all domestic issues.
That does not mean I don't care about foreign policy, I do, it simply means I am more concerned with what is happening at home.
I am not too concerned about Iraq or Afghanistan since I anticipate both conflicts will wind down within the next two years regardless of who wins in November, if nothing else because of economic imperatives; but I think there is a good chance Israel will destroy the Iranian nuclear facilities within a year. Should that happen and Iran retaliates, there is no doubt in my mind that we would enter that war on Israel's side, the only question is to what extent. If I had to make a guess I would say that our involvement would be limited initially to heavy bombardment of strategic areas, including the possibility of using tactical nuclear weapons, but if Iran invades Iraq we would engage them with troops on the ground...after pounding them heavily with everything in our arsenal. with .
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Folks - please stop making fun of Ex-Serviceman
Not only is all he says true - he doesn't know the half of it.
Now, obviously we can all accept that Obama is a crazed Marxist, Pinko, Commie, Socialist, Muslim infiltrator, who will make Fidel Castro his Defence Secretary and Vladimir Putin his Secretary of State. [According to a plan set in motion years ago by the International Conspiracy of A-rabs, Freemasons and Unamerican Lefties].
But even if McCain wins, we're not safe.
It's a well known fact that McCain was hypnotised and brainwashed by the Commie Vietcong. If elected, he will immediately nuke Washington, [after renaming it Ho Chi Minh City.]
And if you don't believe me, there's this documentary that proves it. It's called The Manchurian Candidate or something like that.
It also reveals that Meryl Streep is John McCain's mother. (Boy - she must be REALLY old.)
;-)
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ref #340
But the coasts can be just as intolerant.
Especially SF ask anybody trying to promote ROTC or is devout in their faith
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345. gunsandreligion wrote:
If anything could cause WWIII, this would be it.
Quite ironic that! Has anyone ever read one of the novels that Mad Max is based on? It's a dystopian novel, about soldiers fighting in radioactive trenches, (I can't remember the name)
It starts with a major power invading a middle eastern country on the pretext of ending a dictatorship. It goes tit's up. Other Middle Eastern Powers cut the production of oil, and create an insurgency programe in Israel, in retaliation.
Israel Counter strikes, by nuking one of the middle eastern countries (a limited strike), however another superpower (middle eastern) , retaliates and nukes Israel. Israel nukes the major power, and by the end of the first part the whole of the middle east is a nuclear hell hole.
The second part of the book, details the collapse of the rest of the western world, as oil runs low. Panic and civil war, and eventually world war three.
The rest they say is Mel Gibson History.
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Obama could not have made the remark that Powell made without making things worse. Had he said "what if I were a Muslim?", then all the kooks would be saying "see, he admits it!". Others said it before Powell, but they did not get as much attention as he did.
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Doug - you're getting totally carried away.
In fact, for a wise man, you are coming worryingly close to "exserviceman" in believing conspiracy theories.
Obama was undoubtedly a "high achiever" and in addition is blessed with extraordinary charisma (which is born, never made), a certain amount of luck, and an inner sense that he had to make the best possible use of his talents.
There is much evidence that even when he was at Harvard, people were saying both to him and about him that he would be the "first Black President".
That is a phrase which I am sure you will recognise and have heard used.
When I met the charming Joe Biden back in the late '70's, his lucidity, popularity (and catholicism) led people to say of him "He's the next JFK". Well, Joe has had a more chequered career than that, but he has stuck to his principles and hopefully he will have an opportunity to serve his country in the second highest post.
What I am saying is that it is not some sinister "manchurian" conspiracy or some alien conception which formed Barack Obama. It is the American system itself.
It is very possible that the American system will crush him. If so, an awful lot of people in America and most people in the rest of the world will mourn this loss of opportunity him as they have seldom mourned before.
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What they said about JFK
'He's young, he's inexperienced, he's under the control of a sinister foreign entity'
Sound familiar?
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348. RedWhiteandermblue
Pax!
1) Fair point well made. I'm actually very pro-America in principle .... it is the practise that often lets you down ... and the inability to admit mistakes.
I do not mean to contribute "entirely cynical" motives to US foreign policy ... but for WW1 it was initially perceived as "Europe's problem" and possibly something people thought they were well away from (no globalisation back then!!!)
WW2 has been beautifully repackaged as good guys fighting evil Nazis, but if it were that simple we'd have gone against Germany 6 weeks after Hitler became Chancellor, when Dachau, the first concentration camp was opened.
My point was perhaps an over-simplistic response to a very simplistic post.
2) You're spot on that Romans were not racist as we see it (skin colour) - but if you were "unfortunate" enough to come from outsidethe Empire .... you were just a barbarian.
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Moderators wakey wakey.
either you're about 90 minutes behind with posts , or my hook up is really slow
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'"Communist", an active political group throughout the United States from middle 1800s thru late '70s and possibly early 1980s, when mysteriously for some, they dissolved from the mainstream, by choice and plan.
...we have our own, viable hidden and active communist party here. As we have our own hidden and active Capitolist Corporate party as well.
Even slow minds can see which of our popular political parties represents which hidden one.'
Of course, the Democratic Party is really the Communist Party in disguise! But the real question is, what party disguised itself as the Communist Party?
I notice the Nazi party went under about May 7th, 1945. They were, after all, Die Nazionalische Sozialisten Deutsche Arbeiten Party. (National Socialist German Worker's Party). This, presumably was part of the clever plan as well.
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#333. AxisofOval: "...openly gay" - not a concept that had any meaning in the Ancient World."
I've always wondered what "openly gay" means - you can't tell by looking! In the US sitcom "All In The Family" Archie Bunker once made the statement that "All the British are fags" - and in the mid-1960s it was not uncommon for Americans to agree when they saw young men dressed in the popular "Mod" style of Carnaby Street - tight pants/trousers, fitted shirts and so on. That they were as straight as an arrow made no difference to what was thought. I'm always astonished at the vehemence of the anti-gay brigade since, as Bob Hope remarked during the Anita Bryant/Dade County time, "Where would we be without them?"
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Powell hit a high note by reminding us that America is a truly inclusive society. We can be proud of it while acknowledging the shameful deeds that are mixed in with the good. Yes there are other nations that have been equally noble or inclusive, India is one good example as the world's largest democracy after setting the example for non-violent change. The bad does not negate the good as some negative posters seem to think. But unlike the USA! USA! chanters at rallies, we should acknowledge the bad before redoubling our efforts to do better.
When others start throwing stones and say 'what about Native Americans, segregation, Polk and Mexico, Hearst and Cuba, etc.' the best answer is often "are you without sin?"
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#353. Parrisia wrote:
"to Sankari (160)
I am not saying she's faking it. I am just wondering whether he is "exaggerating" breaking off the campaign to visit his ailing white grandma - the operative word here being WHITE"
I would be more critical of him if he didn't take a day or 2 to visit his sick Grandma .... whatever colour she is. He may even have tken this action without a focus group and polls. Perhaps he is just human, and deserves some respect.
Parrisia - Obama is half black/half-white. Are you suggesting he is he being racially motivated for keeping in touch with his white relatives?
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Dear Doug,
We gotta get this straight.
I do somehow believe that my "more in sorrow than in anger" post at the beginning of these pages led you to Malkin for the first time.
Malkin is MICHELLE Malkin, a she not a he. She is of Asian extraction (shock, horror, not unlike Obama's multi-national background and her maiden name was Maglalang).
She is an extreme rightwinger regarded as a hardline version of Ann Coulter.
She attracts some of the battier right wing bloggers to her pages, the sort of people who the admirable Marbles has warned us against.
I have read your contemplative posts for quite some time now Doug, and I do not believe that Michelle Malkin stands for the values in which you believe.
80%
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I have to try and write something coherent after reading 200 bizarre conspiracy and name calling posts.
The Manchurian Candidate (original Sinatra version) is one of my favorite few dozen films. Some people here have gone off the deep end with such thoughts.
I will play along for a moment. Suppose some other powers really did want to elect a candidate to do harm the USA in the long term, by separating it from its allies and bleeding away its wealth. First he would have to fit in with the broadest US prejudices, maybe a tough, macho-talking cowboy type of everyman, maybe a born-again ex-partier for credibility with both saved and unsaved. He'd have to get elected.
Then he could make sure we hand a trillion dollars to the world's largest totalitarian country to fund the rise of its power (and close our factories) in exchange for a consumption binge of bigger and gaudier electronic trinkets . He could make sure we hand another trillion dollars to other unfriendly countries for oil that we could replace with other forms of energy but he'd disparage those thoughts and convince us they are enviro-pinko bunkum. And we could spend another trillion on a mess in Iraq that we could have avoided but instead he convinced us to start on false pretenses, which took our eyes off a real outlaw in Afghanistan. He could make new enemies for us around the world, and use constantly announced threats to reduce liberties at home. He could use a 'guns and butter' policy of war without home front sacifice to stifle awareness. He and his team would foster prejudice and division. And he could work hard to enrich a few cronies and even harder to grind down the middle class who define our national aspirations, making it harder for the people who push their kids to succeed and do better, thus undermining the nursery of future leaders who might challenge this.
Nah it could never happen, the Manchurian candidate was just a movie.
If it ever did, the only way to stop such a plot would be to re-unite America, to bolster the middle class and foster the American dream of working up to the middle class, to build up America even if that demands service or sacrifice at home, rebuild worldwide alliances and step back into world leadership that involves as much example and respect as dictation and bluster.
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Parrisia (#353), this is just another baseless, mean-spirited attack.
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#325. jcputn5349: "The Shell exec said paying $5 at the pump "will look like a very low price in the years to come if we are prohibited from finding new reserves, new opportunities to increase supplies."
Way back in 1964 I had made my first visit to New York, never thinking I would ever return. When back in England one of my friends was marrying the son of a gentleman who, I discovered at the reception following, was actually a Board member of Royal Dutch Shell. The conversation turned to my recent visit and he asked if I had seen any Shell signs - which I hadn't. He then said, "of course, Americans can afford to pay what we in Britain do" (for petrol/gas) and went on to say that US prices could be raised incrementally to the same or similar levels as in the UK.
With that conversation in mind, rather than finding "finding new reserves", it has always appeared to me that price and profit raising were in the foremost part of the mind of "big oil." The profits are staggering.
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Ref 351
"Saddam Hussein had attacked both the Kurds in the north (using WMD) and the Shi'a in the south until he was stopped by the no-fly zones."
The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed during Saddam's regime died during the Iraq-Iran war, a conflict we were only happy to endorse and support with materiel and military intelligence. Admittedly, the WMDs that the Reagan Administration gave Saddam were intended to be used exclusively against the Iranians, not the Kurds, but our complicity in the slaughter that took place during that war should not be ignored or distorted with rightful expressions of outrage.
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some muslim-american's(yes they do exist) response to this campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/21/muslim.voter.involvement/index.html
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Post #353; Parrisia wrote:" to Sankari (160)
I am not saying she's faking it. I am just wondering whether he is "exaggerating" breaking off the campaign to visit his ailing white grandma - the operative word here being WHITE"
How can you "exaggerate" a break to visit your sick grandmother, and what does her colour have to do with anything?
What are you trying to say?
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#354, dougtexan
do you actually believe anything Michelle Malkin says? you cant find a more ignorant person on the airwaves than her.
wasnt she the lady who made a big deal about a scarf that rachel ray as wearing because it slightly resembled something palestinians wear.
Michelle Malkin went as far as calling Rachel Ray (a tv chef a catholic from new york) a supporter of terrorism just becuase she did a dunkin donuts photoshoot wearing a fashionable scarf that somehow coincidentally resembled a palestinian 'kaffiyeh' (if thats how its spelt).
http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/433937
Michelle Malkin and those like her represents the lowest standard of political discourse in the united states.
i would never believe anything that woman says even if it made some sense.
same goes for rush or any nutjob that represents the extreme versions of right/left wing politics.
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#348
Alexander was Macedonian - they don't like being confused with Greeks either!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#361 - David wrote ...
"Generally speaking, it is those who hold a particular religious faith who are leading the crusade against extending marriage to same-gender partners"
Interesting point about tolerance isn't it.
People are free to dislike gays, but to disallow them the right to civil unions, with all the tax and inheritance issues that comes with, is just spiteful. Marriage is not a word that belongs solely to the religious.
Just because certain people really disagree with a lifestyle does not make it disappear.
For the record, I'm not gay (not that it would matter if I was) - just tolerant .... except of intolerance!
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367
How can you properly insinuate that an administration of that sort could lead to a dystopia presented in a novel? Despite the similarities which abound to the potential situation, how could you demonstrate any causality between McCain and a potential World War? http://partisveritas.blogspot.com/
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Colin, Colon you can understand my opinion. As for racial or cultural tolerance, please..
If you were to go anywhere near the beloved district of columbia dressed in any manner even insinuating muslim; you would be detained just because..
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David Cunard #46 and #53, I wholeheartitly agree that gays should be awarded the same rights as streight people, in every state, to marry!! And moreover, I agree that ashaimidly yes, as you've predicted, I too doubt very much that it will become reality any time soon due to the sheer amount of "social conservitives" in this country unfortunately!! However, a state not officially recognising on paper the union between two people who are in all other aspects a married couple as it is in life, is not a lack of tolerance!! Its merely a lack of recognising the equal rights of our fellow man, which is why I so veiamently apose such denial!! I'm sure you have whitnessed as I know their are millions of, people in Callifornia that could care less whether two gays decide to marry or not!! It doesn't affect anyone else's life! You're defining "tolerance" the wrong way. As far as your '"America hasn't progressed quickly in the least over a short period of time because it took us 40 years to get to the point of perhaps electing Obama" observation goes, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. A lifetime is still a reletavely short period of time to socially progress as much as we have, and as someone later on this blog pointed out (perhaps it was you again,) the UK, with its massive influx of so-called "minorities" since WW II, has now probably more minorities in parlament than congress has, and that, along with the election of Margret Thatcher as its first woman prime minister long before any woman in the United States ever entertained the idea of running for president, is why I believe the UK has progressed far more than the US has over the same period of time!! We "yanks" have a lot to be enspired from and emulate from the United Kingdom if we ever are to bost that we are more accepting and tolerant of people from all walks of life than the British that's for sure!
Kexmar #50: No, unfortunately we haven't had a woman president as the UK, Arginteana, New Zealand, and hundreds of others have had/have now, but don't worry! One of these days we will! Don't give up on us! We'll catch up with the rest of the world one of these days! Please bare with us!
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356. RomeStu wrote:
so here's the point .....
.... will be be visiting "Gitmo" in 10 years time and having ex-prisoners take us round. Or will we simply "forget" it ever happened and move on.
I think it will be the latter.
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I watched aljazerra's video. It's just one more piece of evidence of the overwhelming superiority of America's civilization over all others. Whether Barack Obama becomes president or not, his candidacy having received enormous support from a wide crossection of the American population at large is another. More are to be found everywhere for anyone who cares to look for them. Success cannot be fully measured in terms of money or military force. There are far more important factors. The two above are in part the real answers to Owen Bennet-Jones' question to Sir Christopher Meyers, "Why are they (the Americans) so rich?" The material wealth is part and parcel of an entire package, an inevitable consequence of what it is at its core.
BTW, the USA has in the past suffered and survived far worse than it is suffering now. Each trial by fire only makes it stronger. And those who bet against it in the past always lost and will again.
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#325
Your sources seem to be Fox News and on Taxation a Napkin Dick Cheney once drew a curve on in a bar re taxation levels and income? Which has never been published in a paper.
Then a few non sequitur ramblings and hypotheses around Iran and Israel.
Is that all there is left to attack Obama on?
LOL. I refer the honorable Gentleman to the response Jon Stewart gave Sarah Palin some hours ago.
Dissappointed Sam
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#374
I mean 'open' in the sense that when his lover, Antinous, died while on a visit to Egypt, he encouraged the Egyptians to worship him as a god.
Can't get much more open than that.
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#353
This is not really the appropriate forum for this kind of question.
That, of course, would be a McCain rally - ideally with microphone in hand...
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Afternoon, folks. I've been interested to read some of the comments here - I think sometimes we Americans are a bit parochial, we see the world through our own filter; but, then, I suspect we're all guilty of that to some degree.
The comments re: Powell (who is, indeed, a respected indivdual here) beg one question: experience. I won't be voting for Obama - race is not the issue. As Rush Limbaugh recently said, in commenting on Powell's endorsement - something to the effect that he was going check into Powell's previous endorsements for "inexperienced, unqualified white candidates". I suspect he may come up empty-handed if he does! Racial equality has been, and remains, an issue in the US - as ELSEWHERE. There are many views and facets to it - but it shouldn't be assumed that race is the focus in this election. We realize that we've gone off-course, but many here question Obama's experience (having been a community organizer/attorney in Chicago, not having finished even one term in the Senate, not having authored any bill of substance) in taking on the Presidency.
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358. MagicKirin wrote:
Also he should be pointing to other nations more than the U.S as we have one of the best food production systems in the world.
I wonder how long it will last though. The Colorado is drying up, due to over extraction of water and drought, and your dear President opened his mouth without thinking the facts through, by stating that the US must convert to Bio-fuel, therefore any crop that can be used for bio fuel, will be grown, for the process (as obviously they will get more money for a new cash crop), rather than food.
Hey I wonder if you can make bio fuels out of poppies and tobacco. If so the Tobacco giants can diversify, and the afghan farmers, can grow poppies for a better use.
Actually it doesn't have to be poppies, a lot of bio fuel crops can been grown in temperate climates. The Afghan government are missing a trick here. By investing in the production of bio fuels, that country could become very rich indeed. That will scupper the Talaban and Al Quiada.
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If the views of Parrisia are genuine then I just hope to goodness that the person behind the blogging name has no party allegiance.
As far as I have seen the GOP has had no snide comments to make about a flying visit to a desperately sick grandmother.
Maybe Parrisia, whose comments have astonished most folk on these pages, would like to explain what they are all about ?
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Peace to you as well, RomeStu.
And a good point that those outside the empire were considered barbarians--though I believe the Parthians and Sassanids might have been excepted.
It's interesting though, that this was a cultural exclusion, and one we might consider civilized, or at least much more civilized than the Aristotelian prejudices, which were essentially racial. A child might have been from anywhere, if he were brought up by a Roman citizen he would be considered fully Roman, and, as far as I can tell anyway, no one would care if his skin was dark brown or his eyes had epicicanthic folds.
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newtotalfootball #114, just because we haven't elected an athist president (yet,) doesn't mean that millions of Americans of different faiths, in their every day lives, don't get along swimmingly. That is rather what I think Justin was getting at when he said that. Although I don't think our faith relations are "second to none in the world," as he does. He obviously hasn't spent much time lately in the UK, Because according to these posts, its Utopia! I may well just pick up and move there! But your point about the US electing a president of a different faith is well put. As I've stated on here several times before, I personally believe that the highest, hardest glass cealing to break for the presidency is not race or gender like everyone else seems to think, no, rather I believe it is faith. We must break this cealing! Which is why I perpose the following. If you're British, become an American citizen and then befriend some athists and/or Muslums and try and convince them to run for state legislator, US legislator etc, so that they can climb their way up to running for the presidency. If you're American, do the same but you don't have to worry about moving here. Let me know how your efforts work out. But I must disagree with you on the thought that the US will need another civil war to get an athist president. We're more mature than that now.
David Cunard #103: Ok! Hold on! You know a nation can only have one leader at a time right? We'll get there (hopefully.)
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DT, 80%, perhaps I wasn't clear about what
I believe about Obama.
He might be a crypto-commie-muslim-pinko-
something, but there is no way to prove that.
If a solid link comes up, then that would
change things.
It's more likely that he is a liberal Democrat,
which scares the heck out of me, because I
don't believe that either party can be trusted
with the control of both the legislative and
executive branch.
That's why I'm voting for McCain. Having
an ignorant moose-hunter in control is less
frightening to me than having Harry Reid
and Nancy Pelosi in control. At least Palin
can shoot a gun straight, Pelosi and Reid
can't do anything right.
And, less someone think that I am some
kind of far-right neocon, I would like to point
out that I supported Bill Clinton, Al Gore,
and John Kerry.
Not only that, but I voted for McGovern
in 1972, and I got to put a neat bumper
sticker on the rear of my car that read:
"Don't Blame Me - I Voted for McGovern."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iojPaw8yX0
Great feelgood video, contrast this with the constant negative and divisive tone of Palin
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272 Wrote:
And what about Blair he's a Northerner, but he hides it well!! LoL
And what's wrong being a Northener?
That's fighting talk where I come from.
Wait for it - punch line (pun intended)
So it's a good job I've moved.
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384. At 9:09pm on 21 Oct 2008, moderate_observer
WHAT!! Racheal Ray,.. I LOVE Rach, her garlic, bacon, pepperjack cheese burger is to die for. I watch her last fifteen minutes almost every day. Tonight, I'm making this roasted garlic pork loin she showed last wednesday. I find her 'dinner' ideas make for variety and delight at the dinner table.
That said, Michelle Malkin is an idiot for saying anything against Racheal, but her political information, when documented and digested with the New York Times, Politico, WSJ, Time online, Newsweek, Yahoo and others is just information.... nothing more, nothing less.
As to say her word is more bigot-ed than yours, mine or others is just an opinion. Unless, opinions that don't conform to your standard are subject to ridicule,... oh yeah, on this sight every 'rightwing' is a nutcase and liberal leftys are 'intellects'.
ppbb''ssssttttt''''
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Just a reminder of what a speech by a genuine American patriot looks like:
http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2008/07/01/obama/print.html
It does, inevitably, read oddly to British sensibilities: the United Kingdom isn't founded on this sort of idea, nor are we confident that we can accomplish anything we set our minds and hearts to (our national myth is much more that we will struggle through to survival, somehow, and that good manners will eventually triumph over bad, but don't count on its happening soon!). The UK exists by a series of historical accidents, and especially because our monarchs managed to conquer and assimilate other bits of these islands (please note, by the way, that we have a Scottish dynasty: this wasn't an English plot!) before they finally accepted their merely constitutional non-executive status. There is no Grand Ideal of Britishness to which we all swear allegiance (though of course there are some common factors) and recent attempts to identify such an ideal merely embarrass or irritate us (maybe that very fact defines us rather well). We're simply stuck with each other, with a strong folk-memory of what happens when ideologues seize power.
But we can be moved by the USAmerican ideal from afar, despite knowing that it's an ideal that has often been betrayed. It's an ideal that is being betrayed at the moment, by the appalling antics of the McCain/Palin campaign (and yes, some democrats have also behaved badly - but at least the official campaign has steered clear of the grosser lies and libels).
I suspect that British (and other non-US) eyebrows may also be raised by Obama's declaration "that the greatness of this country – its victories in war, its enormous wealth, its scientific and cultural achievements – all result from the energy and imagination of the American people; their toil, drive, struggle, restlessness, humor and quiet heroism". Over here in the UK we are still conscious that our own experience of empire (and remember that at its height the British Empire was the largest, the most populous, the richest, and in many ways the most humane and civilized the world had ever seen) was not founded only on the character of the British, but on the wealth and wit and troubles of those we ruled or dominated. The US empire has been lucky so far - but all empires falter in the end. With another sort of luck there will still be some hope of a humane and civilized society over there even when the US is no longer a superpower, no longer the world's dominatrix.
Or else, of course, there won't: the nightmare is that the dreadful divisions in US society will be so deepened and embittered that the Union will be destroyed, leaving only a cluster of antagonistic statelets with no great significance for the rest of the world.
When the campaigns began many of us had a wild hope that we would be seeing an actual enactment of the campaign in The West Wing's last series: a decent older Republican vs a charismatic younger ethnic Democrat, in which the fanatics were sidelined, rational disagreements voiced and discussed, and a narrow victory left the losing side its dignity (the Democrat won, and the Republican accepted a post as Secretary of State in the new administration - but it could easily have gone the other way!). Unfortunately that sort of open and healing campaign has long since been abandoned. Even those of us who would once have agreed with elements of McCain's proposals have mostly despaired: either he's in control of his campaign, and cannot be trusted, or he isn't - and cannot be trusted.
So what will follow the actual election? Whichever side wins the losers will have convinced themselves that - in effect - the Antichrist has won: literally so for some on the "religious right" (neither religious, in my view, nor right), and symbolically so for many on the "left" (which is not left at all by European standards). How can USAmericans bring themselves to respect and follow a President and Cabinet that they hate and despise, and who will certainly be wholly indifferent to the losers' concerns?
How are you - I'm speaking to the US bloggers here - going to heal these divisions? Or are you planning to secede?
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#394 AxisofOval
Did you go to the Hadrian Exhibition at the BM as well?
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Neither Colin Powell nor Barack Obama are black. Ask any black man. So there. Nyahhh.
Plus, the Obama detractors are throwing race, religion, cultural and political "rage buttons" all into the same pot, since Obama is an intellectual, black, muslim, liberal, socialist, communist, terrorist, non-pro-american, big town, non-sixpack, non-plumber 'person', plus I heard he was gay.
What they don't realize is that when you mix all those things together you cause a chemical reaction that creates instead a REASONABLE COOL-HEADED ALTRUISTIC THINKING MAN who has not yet sold out to big oil, the Saudi's or that stoopid private ivy league club whaddyacall it, the skull and dopey bones millionaire club.
So vote for Obama and vote for reason and freedom from special interests.
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359. At 7:08pm on 21 Oct 2008, nails2 wrote:
websitejunkie,
Why are you so apologetic? Why is it not the religion? Why must you say that the problem is "the people at the top"? (Even though I agree with your basic sentiment about decent people.)
The religion in it self is a concept, and concept can be extrapolated in many ways. That is why religion's have so many groupings within themselves, eg catholic and Protestant.
It is the ones who control the various groupings that extrapolate the concepts for their own ends.
There is a good comic example in an early Red Dwarf episode. Rimmer finds out that his father is dead. When Rimmer and Lister talk about it. Rimmer informed Lister that his Seventh Day Hopist!
Apparently their addition of the Bible had misprint - the most striking being:
Faith Hop and Charity, and the greatest of these is hop!
So there church made them hop every Sunday!
As I have send in an earlier line. I do not believe in god. I am a Humanist (my girlfriend sometimes jokes that I am a Dawkinist - though that would be ironic if Richard Dawkins invertantly created his own religion!)
Before anyone points out, it's not just religion that is affected like this. All philosophical concepts receive the same treatment, just look at Buddhism for example - some people call it a religion, which of course it clearly isn't!
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364. DominickVila wrote:
but I think there is a good chance Israel will destroy the Iranian nuclear facilities within a year. Should that happen and Iran retaliates, there is no doubt in my mind that we would enter that war on Israel's side, the only question is to what extent. If I had to make a guess I would say that our involvement would be limited initially to heavy bombardment of strategic areas, including the possibility of using tactical nuclear weapons, but if Iran invades Iraq we would engage them with troops on the ground...after pounding them heavily with everything in our arsenal. with .
God - if you belive in him! Help us all!
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#360, DT, sorry for not responding to you
earlier (as I am always flattered when someone
asks me for my opinion), about the Biden
anti-endorsement.
It is more or less a well documented fact that
JFK got into scraps with the Russians because
they sensed that he was too young and inexperienced
to confront them. But, JFK was actually well-
prepared for the job, as detailed here.
Obama does not come anywhere near
JFK's level of preparation for the job.
And, this piece was written by no less a
personage than a former foreign policy speech
writer for Bill Clinton, Ted Widmer.
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#400, NoRashDecisions, statistically, what
percentage of Americans are agnostics or
atheists?
I'll bet that we have already elected people
from those denominations without knowing it.
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373. RedWhiteandermblue wrote:
Of course, the Democratic Party is really the Communist Party in disguise!
No! When did the Democrats ever want to wrap up Capitalism? In favour of Communism?
But the real question is, what party disguised itself as the Communist Party?
Do you mean Capitalist Party?
If so both of them. One wants a slightly freer market than the other.
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# 396 USA-immer
"As Rush Limbaugh recently said, in commenting on Powell's endorsement - something to the effect that he was going check into Powell's previous endorsements for "inexperienced, unqualified white candidates". I suspect he may come up empty-handed if he does!"
Ah yes, Mr Limbaugh - such a moderate , temperate and fairminded source.
"We realize that we've gone off-course, but many here question Obama's experience (having been a community organizer/attorney in Chicago, not having finished even one term in the Senate, not having authored any bill of substance) in taking on the Presidency."
Indeed, no doubt 'many' do. Especially many Republicans
Fortunately, the polls indicate that even more don't.
If length of experience was all people cared about, Obama would never even have been nominated. (Joe Biden would.)
Then again, if the Reps really believed that experience was the most important thing, they'd have nominated a Cheney/Rumsfeld ticket, and had non-stop commercials showing George W endorsing them....
As somebody pointed out here, Powell endorsed Cheney for VP in 2000. Then again, I think a lot of people, including non-Republicans, felt a bit safer at the time that there was an 'adult' in the White House. I daresay Gen Powell has learned from his mistake.
And finally - there was a fascinating interview with Kenneth Adelman on this evening's Channel 4 News [in the UK]. His biographical details are here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Adelman. He's been a leading conservative for decades and an adviser to Reagan. He eviscerated the McCain candidacy, from his floundering on the economy to his saying the most important VP qualification was to be ready to be President - and then picking Palin. He also said hes voting for Obama - even though he's never voted for a Democrat before.
And just for the record - Adelman is about as black as John McCain.
I wonder what Rush's excuse will be for this one?
[And on the subject of Limbaugh - from Wikipedia - "Public polls have shown that a majority of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Limbaugh, such as a Rasmussen Reports poll illustrating a 2-1 margin of unfavorable ratings, with 62 percent of those surveyed reporting an unfavorable opinion of Limbaugh." Only 62%??]
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#404 doug read my post again
"same goes for rush or any nutjob that represents the extreme versions of right/left wing politics.
"
notice i said both right and left wing. I believe and thats just my opinion that anybody who is too strongly to any side is quite frankly disillusioned. unless they of course are being paid to express their ridiculously biased opinions as facts , then that just makes them a liar.
i can lis a few left wing nut-jobs on here, too many to name from msnbc for example.(watching that channel is like watching an obama worship session). and any politician out of san francisco(Pelosi im talking about you).
they are hardly any bit more intellectual than the far right.
i try not to listen to anything from anyone i feel is too biased to be objective thats all.
ps. i dunno if u were being sarcastic about racheal, but she is hot! :)
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388., SonsofthePatriots wrote:
how could you demonstrate any causality between McCain and a potential World War?
I didn't! I just thought it was ironic that history was following art.
HOWEVER if America did interfere with an Israeli-Iranian conflict. It could escalate into a regional war or a world war.
Remember both Russia and China wouldn't look to kindly to a regional conflict that would disrupt energy supplies. Both have got Nuclear Weapons and both probably wouldn't side with Israel.
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#405 srlclark
"we have a Scottish dynasty: this wasn't an English plot!"
German dynasty - German plot!
"How are you - I'm speaking to the US bloggers here - going to heal these divisions? Or are you planning to secede?"
I thought Jon Stewart had the answer. McCain will be President of "real" America. Obama will be Prresident of the "fake" America.
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#408 websitejunkie
"my girlfriend sometimes jokes that I am a Dawkinist - though that would be ironic if Richard Dawkins invertantly created his own religion!"
I think you'd enjoy the discussion on the Atheist's Bus on Harry's Place Blog
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392., MarcusAureliusII wrote:
I watched aljazerra's video. It's just one more piece of evidence of the overwhelming superiority of America's civilization over all others.
I can here the waving of flags, as the soldiers march to an imperialist beat!
All Superpowers - The Romans, the Ottomans, the Russian's, the French, the Austro-Hungarians, the British, all thought the sun would never set on them.
But they were all replaced by something different, as will the US Superpower status, It will be replaced by China or India, or any other of the emerging economies. It's what you do afterwards that is important.
Unless you of course you bomb the countries into submission, but your government has never done that!
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148, Ian.
I know of not a single conversion from Islan to another religion. I knew of one convert from Judaism to Islam. It was sufficiently unusual to be talked about.
The upper class in Iran often went to college, or graduate school, abroad. A large proportion came back with foreign wives who were Christian or Jewish. There were no formal conversions of any type th