Bill on fire
Clinton Onside Shock, as the British tabloids would put it - he makes the central case against Sarah Palin with devastating ease.
Fred Thompson makes the opposing case here.
By the way, Bill was on fire today - looking really back in the groove.
He argued in favour of the Rescue Bill with cogency and plain-spoken elegance. If he does this job for the next few weeks he will surely win some for Barack Obama.
A friend talked to a senior Democrat who suggested that if Mr Obama is doing well, the Clintons will be on board for certain in order to shore up the legacy and be part of the winning team but if Mr Obama is in trouble, Bill's appearance today will one of his last...
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Well, all the polls are strong for Obama today - so - out comes Bill !
Yesterday I wrote that he was toast after his sulky performances.
Today he is Bill at his best.
These Clintons sure are good for entertainment value and his argument about a Palin Vice Presidency is powerful and spot on. That will be in peoples' minds when they watch the debate.
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It's good, too, that Clinton is doing this in Florida, where polls show Obama edging into the lead. All Obama needs to do is hold the states Kerry took in 2004 (he is) and add one more. Florida might well be the one.
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"he makes the central case against Sarah Palin with devastating ease."
Er, no he doesn't.
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Really seems to be a strong swing towards Obama in the polls. I just don't know what could have caused it.
I know the economy is tanking, Bush looks more clueless than ever (which is going some), McCain appeared a fool after 'suspending' his campaign and being snubbed by House Republicans, Palin has been discovered to be an irresponsible, possibly dangerous, choice as VP, and Obama showed himself to be authoratative and trust-worthy in the debate.
But apart from that nothing has changed over the past week.
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Powerful case from Clinton!! He's right, if McCain wins...and we thought the world couldn't hate us anymore!!
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If there is one man who can question Palin's qualifications for the VP spot without looking sexist or abusive that man is Bill Clinton.
His ability to convey the urgency of passing a bill to alleviate the financial problems we are experiencing was outstanding and may prove to be a pivotal endorsement for reluctant democratic congressmen.
It doesn't matter if Obama is ahead in the polls by 1/2 dozen points, with four weeks left before the election things can still turn around. His support is not only important, it is a critical element to convince wavering Clintonistas of the need to prevent four more years of Republican orthodoxy.
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I saw Bill Clinton give a speech at the oddessey arena in belfast in 2000 just before he left office. For a sixteen year old boy who was only there because no-one told me it was a scheduled trip it should have been a nightmare. Hours in line to see a bunch of boring politicans waffle on about this and that was my idea of hell. But Bill Clinton got up there and gave a speech that really inspired me. When he talked about the peace process and how we could have a better future I believed him. Prehaps the fact that it was the President of the united states speaking and all the hype that goes was the reason I remember it so well. But I like to think that it was finally seeing a proper leader who showed that politics could be about more than sectarian tribalism as the real reason.
Ever since then I have had a lot of respect for President Clinton and I was so disapointed with some of his comments during the primaries, that to see him making speeches like he did during the Democatic Convention is really good to see.
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Extremely incisive. I never thought I could say anything good about Bill Clinton. I have changed my mind.
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No. 7 LOL!
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After reading comments from Fred Thompson's article, it sent shivers down my spine thinking that there are that many people out there who will vote for Palin. Who are these people and why aren't they on medication? I will never completely understand Americans. Just when I think I get it, I get slapped upside the head with a stupidity stick.
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#3 dubuh:
Palin's inability to name a single newspaper she reads is by itself evidence of an incuriosity that disqualifies her. I mean, doesn't she even read the Alaska press?
#8 MICKBURKE:
I've never seen Clinton speak in person, but it strikes me that one reason he is so good at connecting with his audience is his ability to explain complex issues in a non-complex way without taking refuge in absurd simplicity. When he's doing that, he's teaching. I'd love to see a speech from him explaining what's going on right now with the financial market and what government needs to do. It would be quite a contrast to the usual fearmongering we're getting from Bush.
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It's true, only Bill could depose Queen Palin without anybody jumping on him for being sexist.
I think it's an excellent case for Joe Biden. He's a classy guy, and will be able to win over more world leaders than a hick from the sticks will ever be able to.
I'd be so embarrassed to send Palin to the UN to make a speech. What would she say there? Something like "I was mayor of Wasilla once.. it's like being the president of [insert third world country here], only you have real responsibilities"
oh i'm sure that'd go over real well
She has yet to be tested against those who don't agree with her, and who she cannot fire for their disagreement.
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allmymarbles - likewise! I have a hard time liking clinton, but I guess I finally have to admit that he's pretty smart sometimes....
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#12 justcorbly
I think that your analysis of Clinton is correct.
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The Democratic party on the 'far left'? Sure. And New Labour is Troytskyist.
I can't type for laughing.
People's attitudes are so entrenched in ideologies, it seems to me, there's just no point in this sort of speculation any more. Republican supporters will vote for McCain, Democrats for Obama, the others probably won't bother.
Just look at what people write here. It never changes, does it? And the idea that a Veep would be sent around the world is laughable.
Let's be realistic here. The American electorate doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world, and neither do any of its politicians: they wouldn't expect a Veep to go any further than Alaska, or anything more connected with the real world than to pay a quick cheerleader visit to the troops in Afghanistan or Iraq.
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Clinton praises Biden but not Obama. Umm. Brilliant?
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According to the latest polls, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Nevada and Florida have edged into the blue.
I wonder what releasing the cell phones numbers will do to the polls?
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A first attempt at following Ed's instructions, so hopefully it will work.
a leader with direction
Also, have spent part of the evening following links on previous threads to Sarah Palin's interview with Katie Couric - thanks Ed and others for posting those. I am quite literally speechless - they weren't even hard or unexpected questions. I'm not a fan of "spin", but a coherant thought placed into a sentence would be reassuring from someone aspiring to be the VP of America.
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It's about time! Glad he's stopped sulking (for the moment) and is working that Clinton magic on the crowd for Obama. Maybe being featured in a McCain ad did the trick.
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Here's McCain making the case for Palin. Doesn't sound like he's going to "drop her" any time soon.
Feisty McCain duels with Des Moines Register
His answer to a question about the taxpayer-backed health care that he's received throughout his life was quite good. He said,
"You know that's an interesting statement, isn't it?" he observed. "And I have never been an astronaut, but I think I know the challenges of space. And I have never done a lot of things in my life that I think I am familar with."
He could have been talking to people on this blog.
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A brilliant one to start with Polly! Thanks for a real senior moment!
I suspect it has been campaign strategy to keep WJC for the latter phase, and I think it shows good judgement. Keeping some of the best powder by (and dry).
Personally, I still think the bailout is a pig in a poke that we can well do without, and that the hurry-hurry is a sure warning sign....
Act in haste...
ed
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16. british-ish:
"Let's be realistic here. The American electorate doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world, and neither do any of its politicians"
Well, our own "world" is rather large. We have 50 states to care about right here. Every state has it's own government and budget, yet we share resources and bail each other out all the time.
Not to say we're not all citizens of one world, but I believe sometimes it's easy to forget how much we do within our own borders, which span quite a great distance compared to many other countries.
We don't get credit, for example, for good citizenship when citizens of one state take into their homes citizens from another, as happened during the last hurricanes. Nor do we get credit when citizens travel thousands of miles to help out in other states after these natural disasters.
And, for the most part, we are very welcoming of others who move here. Most families here have entire generations who came from other countries. Hard to not give a darn when your close relatives all came from somewhere else.
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"By the way, Bill was on fire today - looking really back in the groove.
He argued in favour of the Rescue Bill with cogency and plain-spoken elegance. If he does this job for the next few weeks he will surely win some for Barack Obama."
Bill Clinton isn't running for office so I am unsure why his comments should sway anyone - while he may be intelligent he has flagrant flaws that contributed to the obvious divide in American politics. Might be better if the Clinton's sit on the side lines and let the candidates tell the public why they support their positions.
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You failed to mention that Clinton could answer what the difference is between associated with David Duke than Rev Wright
Since both are equally racist
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That's chameleon Clinton in a nutshell - both of them - you've always gotta' friend in Billary...albeit, a fair-weather one (er, two). Any 'ol wind that blows, Billary will set their sails to it, and then be the first to jump ship when it starts to founder. Opportunism is much too polite a description. And given the fact that Bill is a $100 millionaire, it should hadly come as any surprise that he's as anxioux as any of his other fat-cat cronies for a free bailout to protect the value of his enormous assets. It's altogether insupportable for a war criminal like Bill Clinton to be prancing around before the public, when he should be behind bars or worse for mass killings in Iraq during the genocidal sanctions regime of his two amoral terms in the Oval Office.
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7. Hilarious, if a tad unfair.
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Debategate
HmmmmmOn the matter of a perceived bias in the moderator for the VP debate.
ed
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A union leaders' take on why union members don't feel they know Obama.
In it he says:
"One of the things we find is that there's no sense of where he came from, what he's achieved, and that he's had to work hard for what he's done," Podhorzer continued. "People have much less of a grasp on Obama's biography than they do of McCain, who has created a persona of POW, survivor, independent, fought honorably for his country."
Could it be that there is nothing to know?
The union is going to make sure Obama gets their votes not by filling in Obama's blanks but by telling them the harm a McCain Administration will do to them.
And if that doesn't work, and people still wonder about Obama's missing record, they can always dredge up Bush.
Top Obama Labor Supporter Warns Race Remains Volatile, Says Voters Lack Clear Sense Of Obama
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Clinton embarrassed by being used by McCain and come out guns blazing in a clintoneque way.
My sister hates him because he put bodily fluid on a dress.
I always loved him because he was the best we could ever expect.
He has looked sulky this election and surprisingly never really seemed onboard for Hillary either.
The man has a way with words that I could only dream of when I am trying to explain what energy and fields are to 13 years olds.
It's all about
Empty
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26, Ubermensch.
Then you should feel right at home with them.
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26. MagicKirin:
You failed to mention that Clinton could answer what the difference is between associated with David Duke than Rev Wright
Since both are equally racist
*********************
Clinton stayed on message...for a change. That should tell you something.
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Palin on other Supreme Court decisions besides Roe v Wade
We don't need no education
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Oh, yeah, we can't wait for Joe Biden to go to foreign lands and win over our friends. This is the man who plagiarized his resume when he ran for president, refuted the accusation that he was a Northern liberal by lamenting that Delaware had not been a slave state in the Civil War, and has a well-earned reputation for speaking in a condescending manner to anyone that doesn't agree with him. Yea, he'll be better than Sarah Palin - sure.
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Bailout considerations - a difficult sale,
Caveat emptored
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34, Candace.
Horrifying. Thank you for the link. Palin is even more ignorant than I thought.
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I saw part of President Clinton's speech on C-SPAN. His far more enthusiastic speeches on behalf of his wife didn't win for her even among her own party. I don't think endorsements like this help candidates. They rise and fall largely on their own merits even if the crowds do come out to see him.
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Beyond partisanship?
Yeah! Right!
ed
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38, staphylococcus aureus.
What you fail to realize is that when Bill Clinton is not being petulent, he is a very compelling speaker.
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Post No. 16 isn't accurate. We Americans do care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We crave your love and adoration! Post No. 24 makes that painfully obvious. Please do not criticize us. That makes us peckish.
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#16. british-ish "The American electorate doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world, and neither do any of its politicians."
That's a very sweeping statement coming from someone whose very country was saved, not merely from two world wars, but economically during the last century - and I speak as a Briton who lives in the United States.
Not only does America look after its own - and there are 300 million people - but she contributes vast sums of money to nations around the world. It may be smaller per capita than many other nations (which was discussed in another thread) but nevertheless, the grand total is enormous.
Having until recently had homes on both sides of the Atlantic, I find it almost impossible to equate the UK with the US; there are many similarities but, like peas and brussels sprouts, which are both green, round and vegetable, the two are quite different. That must be accepted; British politicians are no better than their American counterparts and, if The Sun can swing an election (as it boasted in 1997) I suggest that the British electorate is no better informed than any other group. At least an American newspaper cannot claim that.
For all the sniping at most things American, the British public takes to heart almost everything that originates in America - with the exception of sufficient ice in drinks and the filling in sandwiches.
#24. AndreainNY - It goes without saying that you are correct.
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From Baseball to politics, Nate Silver enjoys his fifteen minutes of fame
Bravo!
ed
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I belatedly see that the McCain campaign picked up on the Clinton interview where he blamed the democrats for the Fannie and Freddie flops. I mentioned this interview at the time and I was struck by the number of dem-leaning posters countering this blame. It was a very low number. Even Justin seemed to have missed this.
Did the Clinton speech today revise his thoughts on this, or did he just say that Biden would be a better ambassador than Palin? Funny how suddenly what Clinton says is so high profile again.
I actually like Clinton. He is a very likeable guy, and the ultimate polictician (and I mean this is a good sense - he does connect with the public and he does explain things in such a simple and convincing way). I don't expect politicians to be perfect, and indeed they are much like any other walk of life - it is the ones with more flaws who are more charismatic and appealing.
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16. british-ish:
"Let's be realistic here. The American electorate doesn't give a damn about the rest of the world, and neither do any of its politicians"
Yet more anti-American drivel from a sneering Brit. If America didn't care about the rest of the world why does it fund the UN ? Why was it the first nation to send help to Indonesia after the Tsunami ? Why does it give Billions of dollars to developing nations ? Why does it's Peace Corps work ceaselessly to help impoverished peoples get on their feet ? It is a revelation to come hear and see the smug arrogant opinions of the British, desperately clinging to memories of former glories
whilst they try and ridicule the USA and it's people.
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"You failed to mention that Clinton could answer what the difference is between associated with David Duke than Rev Wright"
Yes, isn't it strange how our Justin could miss that...doesn't fit the agenda I guess.
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#38
Marcus,
Lets play the McCain game.
'I don't think'
Yes, you said it all.
Happy Sam
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1 October - key dateline in the strategy i.e. as campaign closes into the last 4 weeks, those who it is noted have been conspicuously low profile start ramping up the ante.....
Bill was stating the obvious of course on SP...... that a number of reasonably perceptive, far sighted and experienced members and *old Bills* here have already calmly flagged!
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#34
Candy
On a serious note. Not close to Dark Side.
Gilmour for Vice President.
Which brings me to:
GOBBBDMABWGWKMTSPFO have decided that
- We like The Pink Floyd
- But not Roger Waters
Candidate Sam
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#45. vivaelcid "the smug arrogant opinions of the British, desperately clinging to memories of former glories whilst they try and ridicule the USA and it's people."
You are only allowed to be rude if you can spell correctly - there's no apostrophe in "it's", just like 'his' and 'hers'.
Incidentally, you can't tar all Brits with the same brush; it is equally as arrogant of you to endeavour to do so. Manners Maketh Man - so please mind them. And remember that the USA provides than less than 25% of the UN running budget - so it doesn't, as you state,"fund" it. Wise up - and get used to the idea of a Democrat in The White House.
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bill we miss ya
sam cooke sang it best
lets sing the sarah palen song !
Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the french I took
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hey if Obama wins maybe we can send Bill over as U S Ambassador to the Court of St. James
would liven things up a bit I think .
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Right now Obama is clearly ahead in the polls. Heaven help America and the world if he wins.
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To #45Vivaelcid
I AM an American! I am ONLY ONE person but I DO CARE about the rest of the world! You DO NOT speak for me!
I feel angry about statements like yours.
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"I AM an American! I am ONLY ONE person but I DO CARE about the rest of the world! You DO NOT speak for me!
I feel angry about statements like yours."
Good for you. Where did I say Americans didn't care about the world ? Why are you shouting ?
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Marcus
With all due respect
Heaven may indeed help the US and the rest of the world for that matter by allowing for a change in leadership and global perspective .
We may begin to join the rest of the world and see that the vision of this country for long time has been a poor one .
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Interesting to see the positive reaction generated by Sarah Palin's interview on the Hugh Hewitt radio show. It just shows that when she's given a fair interview by someone who isn't in the tank for Obama she comes across very well...both as a caring mother and a politician who isn't one of the usual old boy network.
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#52. lawchicago: "hey if Obama wins maybe we can send Bill over as U S Ambassador to the Court of St. James"
I don't think Hillary would be too keen on that - she'd stay in Washington and he'd be all alone in London . . . not such a good idea!
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I just watched a McCain ad and was thinking about his technique. He is into this sage, safe, grandfatherly, I-will-protect-you mode. But what I see is someone who is insipid, boring, old, and old-fashioned. Reagan just about matched him in age but you never felt he should be in a rocking chair with an afghan over his knees.
I don't think McCain is operating on all cylinders. His judgment is off. He looks and acts out-of-date. (Well, he is, isn't he?) Then he does something dumb like choosing Palin, the meese-hunter. I guess the idea was to suck up to women and tittilate men.
It's time for the rocking chair, old fella.
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57, viva.
Yes, I guess it is unfair to ask Palin what newspapers she reads. She didn't know because the interviewer was pro-Obama. Same for not knowing any Supreme Court cases. Now if a fair-minded interviewer had asked her about meese hunting she would have had plenty to say.
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#37 allmymarbles
I completely agree. It's horryfying. I wonder what her handlers said to her after that interview. May be something like "It's not that bad. We are sure you will say much worse in the days to come ....".
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I know this is a silly suggestion to make to the
Republican pros but would it be too much to
ask to spring for a subscription for Palin to
the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal,
and perhaps the Economist?
Oh, I forgot, they want to tell her what to think.
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I have some thoughts. I WILL NOT SHOUT.
While I have sympathy for all those who have fear and are suffering because of the economy, I also believe that this is a result of what we allowed to happen through our own failure as American citizens.
Americans have allowed their government to engage in a war that basically provided no personal cost for the average American. We have no universal draft for this war. Our standing army and especially our National Guard units have paid the personal price. Many of their families have a folded flag instead of a loved one. Many families are dealing with the terrible suffering both physical and mental of their wounded children, over 70,000.
We do not talk much about that, do we? Do we even talk at all about the personal losses of our allies who were deceived into supporting us?
I do believe that if we had had a draft, this war would have never been started or would have ended a lot sooner. When things get personal, it is amazing how interested people will get.
Many of the current financial difficulties are related to the enormous amount of money that has been wasted on this war. It is also related to the fact that the average American has not had to accept a folded flag to replace a beloved child. The investment boom could keep on booming while some others could keep on fighting.
If the pain has finally begun to trickle down in terms of investment money lost, that is something that can be regained. The severed limbs of a loved one or the death of a child will never be replaced.
I think that the economic pain this country is experiencing now is but the delayed pain that should have been shared by all of us when we allowed this government to do as it willed in Iraq.
I believe there is such a concept as Karma. I believe that we are all part of an interconnected web of existence. What hurts you, hurts me, hurts everyone. Can we not stop fighting each other?
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I can't understand the vitriol that Americans seem to direct at Bill. He's now accused of being divisive, yet he gave the Dems 2 terms in the White House and I'd put money on the fact that the world would still be wondering who GB Jnr is if Bill had been allowed to run a 3rd time. Frankly I prefer a leader who screws his secretary to one who does it to the country.
A number of people seem to reluctantly admit that he has the ability to explain complex issues in simple terms, as if this was some oratorial talent. It isn't, it shows that the man has a deep understanding of the issues involved and an intuitive ability to think them through.
I watched his speech at the Lord Mayors banquet in the London Guildhall a few years back and was deeply impressed by his analysis of the global situation. The man has an intellect that is sorely missing in todays leaders.
His support for Bliden, as opposed to the complaints that he's been less than enthusiastic about Obama, is politically shrewd. It counters the bitterness felt when Hillary was overlooked as Obamas' VP running mate and focuses on the present battle.
Having said that, I always assumed the Secretary of State was the one running around the world, not the VP.
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This was posted on therprevious thread:
"The old rancher said, "Well, ya know, Palin is a 'Post Turtle'."
Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a 'Post Turtle' was.
The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a 'Post Turtle'."
The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she don't belong up there, she don't know what to do while she's up there, and you just wonder what kind of dummy put her up there to begin with."
-Deana, Austin, Texas
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#64
"..Frankly I prefer a leader who screws his secretary to one who does it to the country...", Couldn't have said it better myself.
The french seem to have this down to a fine art, as "sexual indiscretions" are over looked and in Italy, a sign of virility!
Sex is for fun, but politics is for real and not to be taken lightly appears to be their position. Nowt wrong with that.
I saw a speech by Bill several years ago too...at a David Dimbleby lecture (I think it was). Very powerful orator and hugely intelligent. His views on how to "correct/save" the world were spot on and had no rebuttal. But doing so, takes courage!
The polarising affects of media wanting quick sounds bites and ratings have lead to "spin" and PR personnel carefully checking for "damage limitation". You call that courage?? It is just weak and pathetic pandering...if the media just wanted facts and not ratings, it would be a start. But i guess this may be too 'dull' for many, so you end up with the resulting mess that you have now...wow, it is compelling viewing.
All those congressman/women speaking on TV after the vote...eeekkkkk ..."i thank so and so, I respect so and so...this would not be possible without help..we have voted!!!..etc etc..."
It is like they have all suddenly woken up and realised, hey we have a job to do..and oh yeah...this is why the system was set up many years ago..isn't this system/country great...only we vote on important matters....duuhh!!!
I enjoyed the link to Bill. Sounds like he brushed aside Obama and is asking everyone to vote for Biden and the next president, not Obama!
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64, David de Jong.
What some of us have against Bill (and Hillary) Clinton is his less than lily-white reputation. When it comes to money the Clintons are a pretty cut-throat pair. Even now he functions as an influence peddler.
The Clintons thought Hillary had the nomination for president in the bag and then along came Obama. His sudden rise made them realize that they were betting the farm and that her loss might mean the end of lucrative business, as well as the loss of political influence.
I believe Obama did not want her as his running mate because of what she and Bill would bring into the White House. I also suspect he also felt they would try to undermine his presidency.
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Hmmm...... The last time I checked the US government was hugely in arrears with the UN on their dues..... Money which might have gone towards the UN being able to afford sending observers and peace keepers to more world hot spots..... I guess seeing as how the UN voted AGAINST sending forces to Iraq (I wouldn't have either based on some grainy photos of a goat shed in the middle of the desert that I was told was PROOF that the Iraqi Goverment had WMD) the US needed the cash to fund their own war against not having their oil...... sorry, I meant war to liberate the Iraqi people.... You know, the one that started over the WMD.... err..... against terrorists in Iraq..... umm..... well.... whatever...... :)
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There are some comments above about the virtues of America - which most everybody who posts here agrees with, otherwise we wouldn't take the trouble.
But yesterday we had on this blog one suggestion that the British NHS take over American healthcare and another that the British Broadcasting Corporation aka BBC explain the details of the Rescue/Bailout Bill because no American station is doing it.
American can-do confidence seems to have taken a bit of a bashing at the moment - and I would suggest that is due to a President who is not up to it and his very sinister set of sidekicks.
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# 67
Marbles - that's just about it in a nutshell !
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I see there is a serious problem developing with political paper inflation.
I've just heard Justin mention on R4 that the bill started at 3 pages; inflated to 110 in the House, and now it's passed the Senate is over 450 now all sorts of other 'sweeteners' have been added. And by Friday I daresay it will be a thousand and cost a triliion, as I actually always expected it would.
And tomorrow? More 'sweeteners'; more pages? More paragraphs to wrangle over? Whatever happened to "KISS"?
As Christine Lagarde said, there are times when one needs to act quickly in a crisis. Speedy action doesn't preclude rational thought or consideration, as so many seem to assume.
I also heard last year there were 2 million bankruptcies in the US last year just due to medical bills. Looks like more than just one crisis to me.
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#71, british-ish, these are the very same people
who claim that they are going to solve our financial
problems by removing "loopholes."
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OMG. Have just seen Painful's interview.
I don't know what to be more depressed by?
The fact that this "politician" is so close to being Veep or even Prez, or
my horrible suspicion that it doesnt matter what she says. The people that are pro her just wouldnt care - they will vote for the McPainful ticket anyway.
But then Quayle didnt exactly prove to much of a stumbling block in the end.
The republicans can screw up on their choice of Prez/Veep time after time and still get in.
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#69. wanderingangus: "one suggestion (was) that the British NHS take over American healthcare."
I missed that, but you may not be aware that one of the largest Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) in the United States, Kaiser Permanente, is an advisor to the NHS rather than the other way around. Kaiser stresses prevention in the most positive way and in my experience, is much more efficient than traditional (US) health insurance. From diagnosis to surgery, the time to remove a malignant abdominal mass I had was ten days - and would have been shorter had I not requested an additional meeting with the surgeon.
We have the foundation for a more widespread system but without the promises which were made to the British in 1946 (implemented 1948) or the problems the NHS faces today as a consequence. When Mrs Thatcher was in office, she sensibly did not tamper with the basic provisions of the health service, but made charging for services (such as long-term care) very much easier - and the current UK government has never altered or amended these but has embraced and expanded them.
It cannot be beyond American ingenuity to create a health system which at least provides basic care for everyone, much as education is mandated, and no-one complains about their tax dollars being used for that. A hybrid of Kaiser and the NHS might be one consideration. "Socialized medicine" or not, it is well past time that Americans of every economic level received the care they deserve.
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"22. At 11:41pm on 01 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
"His answer to a question about the taxpayer-backed health care that he's received throughout his life was quite good. He said,
"You know that's an interesting statement, isn't it?" he observed. "And I have never been an astronaut, but I think I know the challenges of space. And I have never done a lot of things in my life that I think I am familar with."
He could have been talking to people on this blog. "
Rather undercuts your constant refrain that Obama cannot be trusted because he has "no achievements" (apart from his achievements)
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#87 wanderingangus (previous thread)
The Joe Biden speech quoted in the Independent went:
How would that go with an attribution ? Would he have said:
It's not obvious how you would work it in. Especially when you consider that Joe Biden was not the first member of his family to go to university, the central plank of the quote.
Social mobility means a lot to me. My father was a labourer and my mother a cleaner. I wasthe first person in my family to go to university and my uncle was a miner in Durham.
I would like to believe that all politicians want to bring out those talents hidden in society on their merits. Like the poor immigrant and just, well, the poor.
To some extent the enemy of that is what I think of as 'connectedness'. People want those they know and trust around them. Jack Kennedy wanted Bobby; Bill Clinton let Hillary work on healthcare and he wanted Robert Reich - there are many, many examples.
It's understandable but in the end I would like to think they are all trying to promote the interests of those who merit it. Just because it's economically efficient, if for no other reason.
I know Barack Obama seems to fit this bill but I wonder. History has been littered by 'social leaders' who utterly despised those from whom they arose.
Certainly Joe Biden seems to be more interested in Joe Biden than anyone else and he seems to say whatever he has to - truth notwithstanding - to promote himself.
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67, Allmymarbles
I can understand why some people dislike BC, but not why they also disregard the mans' genuine talents and portray them as superficial abilities. As for his avarice, you should read Roy Jenkins' superb biography on Winston Churchill who also had the same weakness.
The one weakness inherent in the American presidential system is that the experience and possible talents of ex Presidents is lost to public life and the political arena. The ambition and drive that led to the presidency is somehow expected to disappear along with their term of office. The oft touted wisdom that any born American can aspire to become President appears to also imply that if you do, you should gracefully ride off into the sunset once it's over.
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Oh yes, I agree and understand why Obama didn't want Hillary, that would have been a disaster for his position.
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#71 british-ish
I think you chose a bad example since (according to 'Today' this morning) Christine Lagarde apparently suggested a fund 24 hours ago to bail out banks in small EU countries; the Germans didn't like it; last night on Newsnight she was saying that was not the plan.
I'm sorry I can't link to a news story on it, the print / internet press have not caught up.
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#67. allmymarbles: "I believe Obama did not want (Mrs Clinton) as his running mate because of what she and Bill would bring into the White House."
A bit short sighted wasn't it? Had she been the vice-presidential candidate, the odds are that Tina Fey would not be spoofing the 'lipstick lady' and that the gap between McCain and Obama would be substantially wider, in Obama's favour. Not all America holds the same grudge - and the country had a pretty good eight years with Bill at the helm.
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71. british-ish
I think you'll find that a lot of the extras are the tax bill that the Senate used to tack the original onto in order to be able vote before the House does.
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# 71
British
All these "sweeteners" have been put in to persuade a few old pols (and it was Justin Webb who said on the radio yesterday that the average age in the Senate was 106) to come on board and vote for the rescue plan.
We all know that the "plan" is just a starting point and there's going to have to be much more discipline and reality-facing to turn this round - but, but, there are members of the House who will vote against action being taken just to save their own jobs.
Millions and millions of people all over the world can be losing their livelihood, but these old pols can think only of their own backsides.
I well understand that American voters are shocked and angry. But that's due to a total failure of leadership because the public were told overnight that their economy was crashing round their ears and that they had to accept the proposals or face financial armageddon.
The president has become a non-person, a trillion dollars was wiped off the Dow on Monday alone, and there are politicians whose prime concern it transpires is to save their own jobs.
Financial bankruptcy or moral bankruptcy ?
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#68 DarreninCanada
The UNSC didn't vote against the Iraq War on the basis of photos of goat sheds.
They voted against it because French and Russian companies had large oil contracts with Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
They wanted sanctions lifted (which would have been the outcome of more weapons inspections) so that the contracts could come into effect.
There was also some fairly straightforward bribery.
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77, David de Jong.
It goes further than that with the Clintons. Their deals could be counter to American interests, such as his pushing for the deal with Columbia.
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80, David.
Read my post #84.
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Getting back to one of Justin's original thoughts,
apparently Bill Clinton's primary recommendation
as to Joe Biden's future career is that we send him
out of the country for an extended period of time.
Sounds good to me!
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# 76 Chills
Maybe I should have used the phrase "mirrors his experiences" rather than "beliefs" but obviously he felt a great affinity with Kinnock's story. Anyway, it was in 1987 maybe a statute of limitations should apply. I don't know about the other members of the family issue - but I have met the man and thought that he had it in him to go to the finish.
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73, pluto.
"The fact that this "politician" is so close to being Veep or even Prez, or my horrible suspicion that it doesnt matter what she says. The people that are pro her just wouldnt care - they will vote for the McPainful ticket anyway."
I don't think that is proving to be true. There is much criticism of Palin, and not only from Democrats. She may have a lot to do with McCain falling in the polls.
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The political genius of his generation spot on in timing, nuance and substance (as one would expect, when he stops sulking and gets on a roll). Its nice he's not going to be related by kinship to the next president (The White House ain't nobody's family farm!), but doubly good that he'll be on the next President's side. Good for America, good for the economy and good for the world! Amen.
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I've just heard, splendidly, Joe Biden explaining that Hillary would make a better Vice-President and a better President than himself.
That's nice of him. Is that modesty or sabotage, though?
I'm looking forward even more to that debate. I can see Ms Palin making a real meal of that . . .And I for one can't think of any answer . . .
79: Yes, she did, but that was a suggestion I think in reaction to what the Irish did; doesn't change the principle, though. And after what the Irish have done, it's probably inevitable after the weekend.
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#60 allmymarbles
It may be that she didn't answer because the interviewer was pro-Obama.
I would imagine that a problem for an interviewee with a hostile interviewer is to be thinking all of the time about how the interviewer is going to use anything you say in a hostile way.
So she answers 'The Washington Post' and the interviewer says 'did you see that article about...'. Maybe she does read the Washington Post but she didn't see that article but she looks like a liar.
I find it difficult to believe that Sarah Palin does not read any newspaper.
Barack Obama supporters are invited to make suggestions for newspapers she reads followed by suggestions for those Barack Obama reads.
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Parochial note :
Things must be serious - Jim Naughtie has turned up in Washington again !
Jim'll Fix It.
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25. David Cunard wrote
"And remember that the USA provides than less than 25% of the UN running budget - so it doesn't, as you state,"fund" it."
However, with the number of countries which are members of that organization this is about 23% more than it SHOULD be spending there. If not 25%.
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82, wanderinangus:
Quite. As I once heard a British civil servant say about the American 'plan' for restoring electricity to Iraq (which still hasn't happened) at the moment it's "not a plan, just a statement of optimism".
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Why are the right in American politics so far right in contrast to say Canada and Australia... ohhhh I remember a day when Clinton was in power and the US economy was in the other direction~
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#87 wanderingangus
You see, there's the problem.
Once a politician starts lying - and this was not a verbal slip, this was a lie in principle - how do you know what they believe ?
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On the passing of the "rescue" bill anyone seen Michael Moores 10-point proposal to counter the $700bn bail out? Too late now though I expect.
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NETCRUSHER:
I don't know. I've been wondering for years. And I still don't understand how the word "liberal" came to be an insult or mean "ultra-Left" in American English.
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#94 british-ish
I do apologise but you said:
That rather understates the American achievement of restoring Iraq's electricity supply to about the pre-conflict level despite constant sabotage.
I know it seems rather picky but there are many, many myths about Iraq, the war and so on.
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# 96
Chillie - last comment for me on this one.
Did he lie ? He recognised what he believed was his own situation in Neil's words and he adapted them. He used them with attribution many times, but - I believe on the fourteenth occasion - did not mention Kinnock.
Who on earth picked him up on this ? As it was during the primaries I imagine it must have been a Democrat rival, but it only really resonated in the UK where the right went dizzy with merriment at the thought of anyone borrowing words from Kinnock (who, as I have said before, the right liked to portray as a silly windbag).
Interestingly, Kinnock has stood the test of time and so has Biden. Biden is accepted for his flights of hyperbole, but I do not think that he is thought to be a liar.
I rest my case !
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84 Allmymarbles
What deal is that?
The problem with someone like BC is that his restlessness has to be harnessed or utilised. Which is what I was getting at regarding wasting ex Presidents experience.
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Answer to 95:
I would argue that both sides are about as extreme as you can get. The right is most concerned about 2 main issues, abortion and homosexuality. The left is concerned about promoting a socialistic style of government and abortion. Period. End of story.
There is no middle ground. Each side conforms and morphs EVERY one of their opinions on other issues into that of their 'party line'.
Because of the primary systems in America, moderates such as myself are left to choose from the the most liberal or most conservative. If only our citizens would actually stand up and embrace a legitimate 3rd party.
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Can anyone tell me what happens to the Bill if it is passed by the Senate by then rejected by the House ?
Is it then as dead as a dodo or is it in some sort of limbo ?
The imprimateur of the Senate would seem to carry much more weight than, say, our House of Lords - when the House of Lords rejects a Government Bill, the Govt. usually threatens to abolish them !
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68 DarreninCanada wrote
"The last time I checked the US government was hugely in arrears with the UN on their dues..... Money which might have gone towards the UN being able to afford sending observers and peace keepers to more world hot spots"
That is OK Darren, there are 191 other member states, they are welcome to pay for those operations. The US would be better served to use all the additional funding they make to the UN to fix potholes on I-95.
Wonder if PR China's contributions to the UN have increased since they have become a wealthier nation.
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I think Bill is doing too little, too late. Obama is on his own on this and when and if he manages to pull it through, this great win will be his very own and nobody else's. Sen. Clinton will have to wait for another 8 years until she fulfills what she perceives to be her aristocratic destiny.
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97 UKAndy,
Please tell me you are not serious in advertising Michael Moore as a beacon of light to help the US through this issue? Social activist....yes. Economic genius.....not hardly.
I know many Brits have negative opinions of us Yanks on many issues, but I thought you might give us more credit than that.
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103 Angus,
Yes, it is technically dead. The most expedient route would probably be for the Senate to amend the bill again and send it to the House as opposed to someone in the House bringing forth another bill.
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99:
One has to be careful with statistics. They too can be a "statement of optimism". Just glancing over that, the supply is only half the requirement, it appears. So, presumably, either there is enough electricity for half the population, or for only half the day. I've heard from friends who have family in Baghdad that it's usually about 4 hours, or was fairly recently.
That, after five years, was not the anticipated result, I think. But this is a digression.
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#106 NDPNDNTTHNKR
Not himself of course he is not an economist, but he has used his platform and substantial support base to offer alternatives from those with the required intelligence and perhaps without a personal stake in the bailout!
Have you read it?
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105 Parrissia,
Please. The primaries are over so it's time to stop the pro Obama attacks on Clinton. They were unfair then and they're not relevant now.
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109 UKAndy,
Yes and surprisingly I actually agree with at least 4 of his points. The other six are mostly useless socialist fantasy.
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110 - NDP etc.
Thanks for constitutional info.
But come on ? So the Clinton attacks on Obama (subsequently used by McCain) WERE fair then ?
The Clintons have great political vibrancy but saints they ain't.
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Bill Clinton is surely going to do everything he can to ensure Obama gets The White House. He realises that the terrifying prospect of female W Sarah Palin becoming President is just not something that can be allowed to happen. Indeed, she makes W look like an academic. I'm just worried that sod's law is going to come into play tonight and Palin will somehow miraculously beat Biden in the debate.
By the by, great blog Justin. I used to blog on here before you had you had to sign up and stuff.
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103:
I suppose it would die. Or they'll come up with another one altogether and it'll all go round the merry-go-round again.
But I daresay it'll be padded out with the usual unnecessary bridges, a few road repairs, new army bases for some states, a contract for another new tank or plane or something for others, a few more tax cuts and so on, so as to get their representatives on board. That seems to be how it works.
I don't suppose the Senate can threaten to abolish the House of Representatives to get things moving? Just an idea . . .
(That's a joke.)
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#108 british-ish
It actually says:
In your original post, you used the word 'restoring'. They have restored supply to its original level.
Of course they want to do more than that.
If it weren't for digressions this blog generally would be of little interest. Unless (today) you are a clintonologist.
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If, as commonly believed, the indies hold the key to this election, then McCain's already blown it. How anyone who is prepared to vote on the substance of the ticket rather than along party lines, would consider the McCain/Palin combo an intelligent choice is extremely slim. Regardless of the relative merits/demerits of the Obama/Bliden ticket, in the light of the recent financial debacle and the way the administration has been caught out, no sane person would think that the Reps alternative is the one to have confidence in.
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112 Angus,
Which attacks specifically? That he was inexperienced? Has NO foreign policy experience?
Agreed that they won't be getting many awards from the Vatican, but I would argue STRONGLY that Obama has more political prop than leadership experience.
Sorry if I'm answering out of order, but I assumed you were directing that to me. :)
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#84. allmymarbles: "It goes further than that with the Clintons. Their deals could be counter to American interests, such as his pushing for the deal with Columbia."
I didn't know they had such an interest in either the record or broadcasting company . . .
#102. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "The left is concerned about promoting a socialistic style of government and abortion. Period. End of story."
Not so independent after all. Or moderate.
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Fantastic speech from old Billy. He puts doubt into the minds of potential Palin sympathisers merely through stating a fact that the VP choice actually matters for once.
Fred Thompson's article is most likely political spin on his part but would be worrying if you actually believed that he believes what he's saying.
1. Palin was naturally going to be subjected to initial negative media enquiries purely because the Republicans took a relative unknown and claimed she was nigh-on perfect. Purely in the interests of balance it is the media's duty to question if that's true. People with positive media personas (eg Obama) have spent significant time in fostering that opinion. It doesn't happen overnight just because a political party says that it should happen.
2. He almost seems to be suggesting at the end that it's better to have someone that doesn't understand an issue but is willing to have a fight with people, than have someone with the intelligence to sit back and listen to opinions and then make an informed and correct decision. Yee-Ha....
And #106 NDPNDNTTHNKR you are completely correct. We do give you more credit than to listen to Michael Moore. The man is the only thing more disgusting than the things he's complaining about. I haven't heard what he said and it may be the most intelligent suggestion in history, but to acknowledge him in any way means he's still talked about which is the only thing he really cares about, so he should be ritually ignored in all situations.
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If it comes from the left it's a fantasy; if from the right, it's a. . .?
(One of the words I'd insert is "disaster", but I could just be in a minority here.)
Bill Gates has the money, doesn't he? Why not just ask him? I thought there was a tradition of plutocrats being charitable?
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Bill Clinton is a gifted speaker. With his facts at his finger-tips he is able to rouse any audience. Obama should have used him more often. Bill and Hilary make a fantastic team and their backing of Obama will definitely give the edge to Obama over McCain. Clinton was an excellent President and has tremendous empathy for the poor and the needy. Obama has a brilliant mentor.
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~ 117 NPD etc
Well, the 3.00 a.m. phone call for a start and the whole 'not ready to lead' business which McCain is still banging on about as his campaign theme.
But that aside, Bill is incorrigible. He takes the trouble a couple of days ago to come out and say that he is not going to dump on McCain ...... then two days later he effectively tells us all in no uncertain terms "but I AM going to dump on his pick for VP."
..... and in one bound he's free !
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What I find intriguing about the Obama/McCain comments regarding foreign policy is that the McCain supporters predicate foreign policy on the basis of military experience. Surely that's why you have seperate State and Defence departments? Isn't that the very reason for the split between Rumsfeld and Powell, when Rumsfeld felt that American foreign policy was dictated by the Defence Department? It's also significant that the Secretary of State is the senior government department.
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#100 wanderingangus
Except that it was not 'his own situation'. He stole someone else's history along with their words to make a political point.
This is not by a long way the only lie he's ever told, either - and he started early. Sample:
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#45
You can't list all these things America has done that are great without listing a lot of awful things as well. Funding the UN? 60 or so security council vetos against resolutions on Israel breaking international law. First to send money after tsunami, billions spent on developing countries? International loan conditions and propping up dictators and terrorists who look like allies at the time. The secret bombing of Laos. The removal of democratically elected socialist leaders in Central America. Etc.
America has a chequered but long history of isolationism when the world really needs it and interventionism for its own strategic interests. It's predictable from any superpower, and all countries have their failings, and has little to do with the American people. But you can't equate the generosity of Texas' neighbours in a hurricane with the American state and government being pure and perfect.
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Aquarizonalass (63)
Absolutely SPOT ON! And belated congratulations on being a (very) great grannie,
Waves of empathy from
ed
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#98
Ditto.
If the American state was built on liberty, and became a shining light for liberty around the world, it's baffling to see the word "liberal" become a dirty word in America.
Ironically my impression of what most Americans mean by "liberal" is actually what we'd call left-wing (e.g. government intervention), which in Europe is generally considered the opposite to being liberal.
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Ed - seeing as you have joined us and because I can't make head nor tail of your instructions to link (which becomes an issue when I realise that everyone else can) you might like to have a look at the tale over on Huffpo of how Ms. Palin has already been the cause of the new President of Pakistan having a Fatwa issued against him.
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I'd like to try to inject something new. I've just read Robert Kagan on the BBC News website in "US superpower status is shaken". It's too long to quote here.
I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd read something like that from. of all things, the "Project for a New American Century". I'm nearly speechless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7645743.stm
Hasn't time speeded up? A whole century flies by in less than a decade. This last week really has shaken some things up in a rather surprising way. And not just a few banks.
I'd like to hear that debated between Palin and Biden, it seems to me to be a serious issue with enormous ramifications, but I somehow doubt I will.
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Chill0,
I guess that's why he's the poorest (financially) man in th Senate. The attribution question has been dealt with at great length LONG AGO, but, any slur will do when you're as far down the probabilities as the Repugnants are at the moment.Have a nice day
ed
Of course, it might be argued that, if he's so demonstrably unsuccessful at corruptly feathering his oen nest, he must be a pretty poor Senator....
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David (77),
Jimmy Carter's best qualities haven't been lost in the years following his time in office. He has been, so far as I'm concerned, the very best ex-President in at least a century.
Peace ()
ed
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Chill0,
No. They voted against it because the case for it was tissue-thin as anyone could see, and, to an extent because of conflicting interests within the UNSC, INCLUDING that the French & Russkies had oil access the US wanted.It was primarily a war for control of resources, as are all wars in final analysis. Next? Water.
Salaam
ed
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Chill0,
I don't.Complain about this comment
127:
Yes, it's begun to cause some confusion for me now particularly in France, where "liberalisation" is used in the right-wing sense of "freeing"(from government control).
I've wondered sometimes if the Right does this (twists the meaning of some words or concepts) deliberately to discredit perfectly honourable beliefs and convictions they don't like. Probably adopted from Stalinism: all that "revisionist" stuff . . .worked for him, so why not?
One ends up getting involved in tedious explanations and exegises. Which suits the Right fine, of course, because they just chant a short slogan in reply. (I can think of one very recent example involving Wall Street!)
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#129 british-ish
This is the article to which Paul Reynolds refers.
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Now why didn't that hyperlink come out right in 129? I never had this trouble on the Proms message board. Ed, where are those instructions again?
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@NDPNDNTTHNKR (#100)
oh please! do you really think that Sen.Clinton's desire to become something more than Senator has gone away?
BTW Obama supporters' reservation with regard to Sen. Clinton's true intentions are not unwarranted. It took a back-stage deal for Sen. CLinton and the former President to come forth and support Obama. Had Obama not paid her debts, they would now be vacationing right now instead of expressing (token) manifestations of support for Barack
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#130 Ed Iglehart
Perhaps feathering the extended Biden family nest. Sample:
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British # 129
The astonishment you express takes us back to earlier in the debate and to a word which we haven't used much since the financial crisis exploded. That word is neocon.
I came into this debate believing that the neocon view of the world - as practised during the past eight years - had destroyed any moral authority that America used to have in its position as leader of the free world. After the past week, we now know that not only have the neocons destroyed the moral authority, but they've managed to take the global economy down with them.
As you say, it would be enlightening to hear Biden and Palin debate the whole neocon concept and its consequences but I am afraid that won't happen. Which in itself is part of the problem.
It is interesting to reflect on the theory aired only a couple of weeks ago that Palin was the candidate of the neocons who thought they saw in her a blank sheet who would follow in the steps of Cheney. As they have come to know her better they probably realise that she's a blank sheet all right, but not one on which they are going to manage to do any coherent writing.
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The UN Security Council didn't exactly vote "against" the invasion of Iraq. It didn't precisely vote "for" it. There's a difference.
That then caused, and still does, a lot of trouble and concern over here in respect of international law, and is one reason Tony Blair resigned as PM eventually.
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Gus,
Is it becuz you is a girlie? ;-)Ms. Palin has already been the cause of the new President of Pakistan having a Fatwa issued against him.
See me after class
xx
ed
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In the gunfight that began last week in Mississippi between John Wayne – sorry, McCain – and Billy – sorry, Barak – the Kid, the seconds are a guy from way back East and some Alaskan Inuit.. But the old gunfighter from Little Rock, with his rock-steady hands and wits, is gonna help The Kid win. And the dude from back East may look old, but he's plenty quick on the draw when needed. So this battle is gonna play out today in St. Louis, then over the West before they bring it all back home to decide on Long Island! I'd say we're gonna get our first president from the Upper Midwest since.. Dwight Eisenhower. They're good people up there. You can trust 'em. Some Prof. Putnam at Harvard U. sez so too.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
124. At 10:15am on 02 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#100 wanderingangus
Did he lie ? He recognised what he believed was his own situation in Neil's words and he adapted them
Except that it was not 'his own situation'. He stole someone else's history along with their words to make a political point.
This is not by a long way the only lie he's ever told, either - and he started early. Sample:
Biden admitted the next day that while in law school he had received an F for a course because he had plagiarized five pages from a published article in a term paper that he submitted."
Did he claim to be welsh? How did he appropriate Kinnock's history?
Isn't that a bit of a lie?
As for the next quote taken from a far right website, he confessed.
Can't remember Palin admitting she has been er mistruthful about anything at all.
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Ed 131
I must agree with you there. My feeling is that POTAS is considered, by americans, to be such an elevated position that for an ex to participate in other than a global ceremonial role is demeaning to the position of POTAS. This wasn't always the case. Somehow the office of POTAS has moved from being a job description to one of near monarchy for a day.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The ramifications spread. While Washington politiicans from both sides appear to ignore them.
The world really is going to look markedly different very soon, it seems:
'Chavez said the leaders were looking to "step up the pace" on economic integration efforts including the creation of the Bank of the South, a regional state development bank. . .
"The best strategy is [going on] the offensive," Chavez said. "While US-style free-market neo-liberalism collapses, we're moving forward" with South American integration," he added.'
[From aljazeera.net/news/americas]
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"118.
#102. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "The left is concerned about promoting a socialistic style of government and abortion. Period. End of story."
Not so independent after all. Or moderate."
Or even sane. It would be excellent one day to get an American to explain what they think Socialism is. AS far as I can make out it means something like "heresy", "witch" or "catholic" (in its 18th century sense).
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The Clinton's long term objective is winning in 2012, and it looks like they concluded that Hillary will have a better chance running against Obama four years from now, than against a VP - or Heavens forbid -a President Palin. Considering Hillary's lack of charisma and the antipathy that many people have towards her, they are probably right in their analysis of what the future holds for their political aspirations.
I agree with Ed regarding Carter's post presidential performance. It should serve as a model for other Presidents.
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# 74
Indeed!
Anyone interested in health care should become familiar with Kaiser Permanente!
For half a century, it has been operating on the basis of keeping people well-
[not a bad idea for an insurance company]
It is an implementation of the old Latin American idea- you pay your doctor all the time to keep you well or repair what goes wrong!
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#130 Ed Iglehart
I don't think that citing well-established facts is what is normally characterised as a slur.
I believe post #133 falls more readily into that category.
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The BBC finally had someone publish facts instead of "commentary":
"..Key to getting recalcitrant House Republicans on side was the addition of tax breaks aimed at small businesses and middle-income earners. But tax cuts can work both ways.
CHANGES TO BILL
Raises government's guarantee on savings from $100,000 to $250,000
Tax breaks to help small businesses and promote renewable energy
Expansion of child tax credit and help for victims of recent hurricanes
Will the US public buy the plan?
So called "Blue Dog Democrats" in the House - those who are more fiscally conservative - want to know how these tax breaks will be funded.
They have long argued that tax breaks will make no sense if it increases the federal deficit. House Majority leader Steny Hoyer has said he is angry about the tax cuts, but has stopped short of saying that he will not support the bill.
And in a move clearly designed to appease some Democrats the bill does include incentives for renewable forms of energy. Investment in wind and solar energy will be rewarded..."
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Gus,
Too true! But Cheney is all too coherent, and pretty near thoroughly evil as well. I don't think Palin is clever enough to be truly evil, just deluded.;-)
ed
Just for fun:
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Bill Clinton is a very good speaker even better than Obama really.Thats the rub...the democrats and many americans would prefer Bill Clinton to be standing for President but of course he cant under the rules.Obama is a nice enough chap but he will get chewed up and spat out if ever elected.He always reminds me of a boxer waiting to fight the world champion and only being a light heavyweight he doesnt understand he is trying to punch above his weight,he thinks he can win but the odds are against him.If McCain wins then the likes of Sarah Palin will give politics a new goal for all who follow on from her.She is not just some nutcase mom from Alaska talking about local issues, I think in time she could be a great President regardless of how the vote goes this time around.She is for the ordinary Joe Soap in the USA,the sort of people whose opinion is never asked and she doesnt care who she upsets to support those people.If McCain loses its not the end of the world but in four years Palin will be the candidate and she will win and become President.
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139:
wanderinangus:
Yes, I agree, but I wasn't thinking terribly coherently myself, I now realise; there's obviously nowhere near enough time for her, or her trainers, to learn the new "revisionist' Neocon stance of supporting a 'multipolar' co-operative world.
I wonder if Biden's seen it?
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" At 11:07am on 02 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#130 Ed Iglehart
Perhaps feathering the extended Biden family nest. Sample:
One of the senator's sons -- Hunter, a Washington lobbyist -- and the senator's brother, James --received a $1 million investment in their purchase of a hedge fund company from the senator's largest political donor, an Illinois law firm, SimmonsCooper. The brother and the son subsequently repaid the $1 million to the law firm, which specializes in representing asbestos victims. "
The word here is so? And isn't this being disputed?
Not trying to slur here are we?
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#132 Ed Iglehart
Perhaps the water war has already begun.
I quoted a sample of this before but got moderated. It's not long but it's interesting. It's a problem that's been around a long time and will only get worse.
Oil schmoil.
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David (145),
Of course, Jefferson was an excellent ex-president, and WJC bears his name as a 'middle' given...
Jefferson's archives are astounding.
Browse and enjoy...
ed
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#131 Ed Iglehart
I don't always agree with what he says but I have nothing but respect for Jimmy Carter.
He comes across as another honest man. There was also a potentially huge scandal around his re-election defeat that I have never seen adequately explained.
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Links:
Typing this: <a href="http://home2.btconnect.com/tipiglen/cowboy.jpg">Howdy Ma'am!</a>
will give this: Howdy Ma'am!
Of course, you should insert your own choice of weblink/URL and descriptive text.
Bookmark this link
Share & Enjoy ((c) Sirius Cybernetics Corp.)
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Ed - I believe that you are only giving me 80% of the instructions.
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145:
I was told a couple of years ago by a retired fairly senior member of the US Army, that it was "wrong to criticise the Commander-in-chief in time of war'.
That, I countered, meant it must be wrong to criticise an elected politician, which surely can't be right?
It's something that only seems to have developed relatively recently.
No elected leader should be elevated to a status where they are immune, surely? That very nearly happened with de Gaulle in France, and look what happened there . . .
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Information Overload!
Share & enjoy!
ed
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I was on the BBC's Robert Peston's blog and I replied to a post which may be of interest to you all (again, apologies if you have already seen):
#9 BankRSlicker
Googling 'Money As Debt' threw up some very interesting links.
Here's a good article discussing the issues raised.
We may well be all doomed!
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#3 duhbuh,
"he makes the central case against Sarah Palin with devastating ease."
Er, no he doesn't.
---------------------------------------------------------
Let's not kid ourselves, if there's anyone who knows what they're talking about, it's Bill Clinton, who's been the best U.S. president in the last 25-30 years. He's absolutely right when he says that Joe Biden is the best qualified in terms of his knowledge and experience, to do the job of VP. Are you so dumb that you cannot deduce that?
Or are you suggesting that a woman who only acquired a passport LAST YEAR is more adept at doing the job than a man who is clearly more articulate, intelligent and much more worldly wise than she will ever be. I'll let you chew on that for a while.
Hopefully, you'll come up with the "correct" answer, but I won't be holding my breath.
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# 154
The mentality expressed therein
underlines the need for the World to find non-USA leadership!
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AndreaInNy,
Clinton praises Biden but not Obama. Umm. Brilliant?
--------------------------------------------------------
Andrea,
You clearly haven't done your research have you? If you had, you would have seen Bill Clinton extolling the virtues of Barack Obama during a speech yesterday which received a rousing reception. You're not very good at this are you?
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Chill0,
Israel currently diverts approximately 80% of the water resources of the Occupied Territories for her own use.
Is this moral?
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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150:
Oh, so that's one reason we're hearing a lot about preventive medicine and care? I'm not complaining, being disabled, I get my share free from the NHS.
Wasn't it the Chinese who had a system that might solve the American health care problems? You paid the doctor while you were well, but stopped paying as soon as you got ill until he cured you.
It has the twin merits, I feel, of possibly being more economical, and not likely to be tagged as being "socialistic medicine."
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"Certainly Joe Biden seems to be more interested in Joe Biden than anyone else and he seems to say whatever he has to - truth notwithstanding - to promote himself."
As opposed to his opponent?
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# 154
Is it the name or is it the sentiments expressed that make me think there's something of a hoax going on here ?
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"158. At 11:43am on 02 Oct 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
David (145),
Of course, Jefferson was an excellent ex-president, and WJC bears his name as a 'middle' given...
Jefferson's archives are astounding. "
Yes all a little undercut by the fact that Jefferson was a slave owner and seems to have physically exploited at least one of his female slaves.
He admitted this contradiction himself of course, but that does not excuse it.
As Johnson said "Why do we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes."
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152:
In other words, all sorts of other things are going to get tacked on to this bill that really won't do anything more to solve the fundamental problem. How predictable. Yes, I can see 'bill inflation' of Zimbabwean proportions and it reaching over a thousand pages easily.
I keep trying to get this back on track: how are the two Veeps going to explain this tonight? Are either capable? Will they even attempt to discuss it?
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How the Senate Voted
An interesting analysis
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#156 Simon21
Do you mean this story headed:
Can you cite the reference where you say it's 'disputed' ? The 'Los Angeles Times' does not say that at all.
So how is that a 'slur' exactly ?
...and I didn't say that Joe Biden said he was welsh, where did you get that idea ?
He did say to a heckler:
Which was untrue and that he graduated in the top half of his class, also untrue.
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#168 Ed Iglehart
Link ?
I read an article by Robert Fisk many years ago wherein he examined Israel's 'water debt'.
It's an interesting question. When you consider that Iraq invaded Kuwait partly because they believed Kuwait were drilling sideways into their oil...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Quick time out comment to observe that it is refreshing to have a variety of new or returned to the fold bloggers offering comments on Justins site over the last 2-3 topics. Where were you all before this, a couple of weeks ago?!
Equally, some others have sort of evaporated. Anyone know where JohnAAA; MarkinOxford and even Geeloo have got to or have they been seen hammering away on other blogs?
71. british-ish. KISS was a bit of an ex tommy give away! For anyone wondering ..... *Keep It Simple, Stupid*!
Changing tack, I dont buy the view I saw earlier that effectively Barack Obama would remain, or be best served, in staying at home base fixing the economy whilst others were roving around the world?
On the financial situation, yes, the new president needs to appoint a fresh and highly capable team promptly. Its charter must be wedded to the law, clear TORs and a crystal clear mandate, bought into by all on Capitol Hill, to champion US economic recovery.
That said, imo, key priority No1 is even more pressing business, overseas. The GWB legacy...... everyone knows the situation, so lets not dwell.....
Barack Obama faces a monumental challenge in repairing; restoring, creating and shaping relationships that will lead the USA, globally, back to the fore where so many nations are eagerly willing the US to be yesterday.
As commented on earlier JW blogs, I personally believe that the ME Asian fulcrum needs a complete upside down policy shakedown. Jaw jaw jaw.......... maybe, but this is the subtlety. Aspiring to a resolution here the USA, through the catalyst of one President Obama who is likely to have the benefit of a small window of goodwill and thus opportunity, is far more likely to achieve positive results by being bold. But bold in the right context. So, three initiatives - one obvious but two contentious.....
i) I certainly want him to re-shape his current backing of US politico-military policy towards Pakistan and re-establish proper dialogue, trust and respect with both its new leader and people.
ii) I want to see him show exceptional courage to seriously plan and work to build genuine bridges with Iran by engaging in early diplomatic dialogue at the highest level leading to self involvement and more. This can and must be done.
iii) The Israeli-Palestinian crisis. I have monitored the weight of feeling on this issue here over recent days, no doubt like others. Frankly, there is going to continue to be little or no progress in the wider region until there is real engagement and dare I say, a real sense of discipline. Putting head well and truly over the parapet (of political incorrecteness in certain circles) I can state honestly a view that the oft heard statements in terms of US *unconditional* support for Israel from senior politicians is far too lax; naive and needs far firmer strings, and more, attached. Sorry, Israel cannot have it all ways here in 2008 and indefinitely.
Political leaders; governments; envoys; do gooders..... you name it, are going to keep supposedly chipping away at this impasse until kingdom come. For each apparent gain there will be backward steps aplenty. The current status quo in human terms is completely unacceptable and needs a visionary political and practical solution on the ground.
The practical is almost unimaginable, but the Palestinian nation needs hope; a future and a proper homeland, period. I balance this by saying that ordinary Israeli families need peace and stability derived from honest political stewardship too and they could have it.
So, who says a green field site *promised land* cannot rise up somewhere out of the despair, the tunnels, the dusty nothingness prevailing at present? If a successful transition of desert and sand in the UAE can be transformed into the Palms and the mega metroplis that is Dubai and surrounds, then who says similar cannot be achieved elswhere?
Yes, the history of this is a disgrace all round. But, let it be consigned to history and lets see Barack Obama and other leaders seize the initiative and do something seriously historic for mankind.
Another Bill a tad flambe....over and out. Thank you.
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Chill0,
Some perspectiveHe also wrote a "polemic against slavery" in the original draft of the Declaration of independence, which was deleted at the insistence of South Carolina and Georgia.
A man of his time, and a great one.
Peace ()
ed
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Whether or mot you agree with Bill Clinton is paramont to this discussion. Will the VP play a more important roll in foriegn affairs?
Then if that is the case Biden must step down. Twenty years in forign relations, six plus as chairman of the foriegn relations committee,... look where our foriegn relations are, in the tank to read this blog. A protectionist president and foriegn relations nightmare, whew thats chanhge I don't want.
Then I got this old guy and Alaskain beauty,... yikes the choices just get better and better. Here I have a foriegn relations war machine and a beauty queen, albet qualified more than the others presidential pick, who can listen to that voice,.. and the world is mean, to many wars "For the Queen" in history.
I'm moving to Mexico where you just decide which drug lord to live under, work for and die from. Or maybe into Canada, hunt meese and fish with dynomite, campfires and log cabin with outdoor plumbing,.. me my gun, fishing pole and bible.
freedom fries
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#53, MA II,
"Right now Obama is clearly ahead in the polls. Heaven help America and the world if he wins."
Bull's eye! From Nov 4th, we are in for a three month rough ride with a lame duck prez and some raging Neocons before Obama has a chance to put things right.
Even the dinosaurs were not obliterated in such a short time span, I believe (shock wave, fire, tsunami's, global winter, acid rains) ;-)
#63, aqua,
So true... I feel sorry for most of the the people who died in this stupid war. Most of the times, an enemy consists of just a few men at the top.
Communication and help should be enough to convince their 'followers' to take another path (The next step for Internet?). Just get rid of the few madmen.
A change is needed. You should give new energy a chance to make this happen. But, remember, even great men may fail in Office. It will be just a chance. The outcome is still uncertain.
#67, marbles,
2nd that wholeheartedly!! Referring to my comment above, he is a great man, but did he use his gifts the right way in his eight years? Man.. if only he should have done that! If only the Democrats had been the Majority Party in those days...
Clinton may be the better orator, but IMHO- Obama is a greater thinker. Remains the crucial question which of the two is better at putting theory into practice.
# 71, british-ish,
I agree. Wall Street is just a shadow of the problem whereas Main Street is at the core. Let's get serious: It goes down 300 points while the Representatives are voting against the Bill??
It looks like (a) game to me... And 1 trillion dollars lost? Hey, the next day they 'won' 300 billion. Up and down, up and down....
On the alternative 10-points plan of mr. Moore: Although I do agree with him on most of the points, I think it stands no chance in the 'real' world. I think the new Bail Out Bill does, be it as a temporary solution.
Nevertheless, maybe some of it can be materialized if Obama wins the election. If so, heaven will not help the very rich in America, I guess, they can take care for themselves ;-)
D.
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Chill0 (176),
i.e. one rule for the natives and another for the illegal settlers....One link of many possible
Plus ca change
ed
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Ed (131),
"Jimmy Carter's best qualities haven't been lost in the years following his time in office. He has been, so far as I'm concerned, the very best ex-President in at least a century."
That sounds about right to me. And I don't think he was that bad a president either. Indeed I sometimes wonder if the burgeoning global warming crisis might have been delayed, even averted, had enough Americans seen through Ronald "Rapture" Reagan and given the science-savvy Carter a second term in 1980.
I also wonder if, given the unfolding longer term consequences of Ronnie's voodoo economic and environmental policies, Reagan might even turn out to be history's all-time #1 bad guy?
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#179 Ed Iglehart
That wasn't me. That was #172 Simon21.
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# 167 - Ezekiel
I would think that Obama has proved himself a big enough boy to happily accept that Bill's endorsement is going to be at arm's length. I think that they would both prefer it this way.
After all, not only did the primaries struggle bring quite a bit of baggage on both sides, but a post-presidential Bill is involved in lots of things that a new Democratic President might like to distance himself from.
For all his funny little ways, Bill has proved in one speech that he can still energise an issue. Even on this site we were flagging a bit yesterday, but he's breathed new life into the discussion.
I believe he knows that Obama has proved his mettle by this stage, and I believe that they have reached an accommodation which allows both of them enough air space.
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#168 Ed Iglehart
No, I think it's wrong but it needs a lot of complicated sorting out between several nations.
Meantime maybe water war closer to your former home. Perhaps instead of greenbacks they can pay in wetbacks...
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ref #178
Well first you assuming Obama will win. There is not a relliable pundint who says this will not be a close election.
Second you seem to assume the U.S and Israel are always wrong.
You don't say anything about the Palestinians giving anything to Israel including their terrorist leaders for war crimes.
Likewise you seem to be very trust ing of Iran an inslamic fundalemntalist terroor supporting nation.
How about the Arab nations start by opening up unconditional negoiations with Israel.
What about the world reimbursing the U.S for 40 years of peace keeping?
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103. At 09:03am on 02 Oct 2008, wanderingangus
If the bill fails in the house it is then sent back to senate and to committee, generally to screw the public more as they don't take out the pieces we don't want, they add pork to cover the stench and litterally buy passage.
Same as over there
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ref #131
You are in a minority there.
Carter broke the unwritten rule that ex Presidents do not activly engage in foriegn policy unless asked.
Especially when he is disputing current policy.
I could go on a major ditrabe about Jimmy Carter many other faults but the moderators would censor it.
But Carter was a failure as President and a failure as an ex President
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178:
"KISS was a bit of an ex tommy give away! For anyone wondering *Keep It Simple, Stupid*!"
Eh? I thought Bill Clinton used it. Does that mean you think I might have been in the British Army? Sorry, I'm not old enough to have done National Service. Not even sure when it was abolished. Not my thing at all, armies.
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Chill0,
Salaam/ShalomAnother water link
and another
ed
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Post 179
Sorry to disagree with your comment Ed
"Apparently there were many factors, financial, social and political, that prevented him (Jefferson) from freeing his own slaves....."
Either slavery is wrong or it ain't. It can't be justifed as being alright at the time or else we may find that it could be come fashionable once again.
Jefferson was a hypocrite. He could have freed his slaves if he had the courage of his convictions. The reasons are spurious
Financial - he managed to create a nice estate at monticello so perhaps he could have managed ot live a little more frugally. The argument that his slave owning was justified because it was profitable to him is not morally justifiable.
Social - did he really put the gossip behind lace curtains ahead of the liberty of his fellow man? If so then no hero.
Political - well politics may have prevented general emancipation but he was free to dispose of his own "property" as he saw fit - after all wasn't that part of what the revolution was all about. He could have given up politics if necessary to follow his convictions - he had choices.
He did not even choose to free his slaves on his death (except for a few close relative of Sally Hemmings whom he may have had a relationship with and one has to wonder at the dynamics of such a relationship given that he was her owner.)
Putting it a modern context which you will relate to .... I'm sure that many in Israel feel that there are financial, socail and political justifications for the occupation of the west bank but would you agree with their actions?
You're all doing very well !!
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#186 me
They paid, by the way.
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74. David_Cunard:
"It cannot be beyond American ingenuity to create a health system which at least provides basic care for everyone, much as education is mandated, and no-one complains about their tax dollars being used for that. "
Actually, people are quite dissatisfied with education, which is why the voucher debate exists.
I believe the teachers' union factors into this because, IMO, it puts its own interests ahead of the children's.
There is also an ongoing debate about per-pupil spending. Many people advocate increasing it as a means to improve education through smaller class sizes, higher quality teachers, etc. While others use the disparity in per-pupil expenditures, which can be almost triple in some states, as proof that "throwing more money" at education has not led to gains in education--that is, higher expenditures don't necessarily translate into higher student performance. (One could argue that the higher expenditure is required to get the students to their highest level, however low that is.)
I know my concern about government intervention stems from my belief that the government tends to mess things up.
This mortgage debacle is the perfect example. Well-intentioned democrats trying to spread the pride of home ownership wound up messing up the mortgage market.
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There have been other suggestions than
Michael Moore's.
Like Sir Evelyn Rothschild who has suggested a form of licensing for the kind of bankers who created this mess: if they don't behave, their licence to play gets withdrawn and if their 'profits' that got them their bonuses are therefore bogus, it's got to be paid back. I think that was the gist, and it seems to be the sort of way the Europeans are heading.
(I'm bored with seeing too much of the same old worn-out stuff rehashed again.)
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Magic,
Oh yeah?
Close, maybe, but the odds are pretty disproportionate, and growing....
Keep drinking the Kool-Ade!
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Magic,
I don't doubt it for a moment.Complain about this comment
188:
Not exactly. Neither house over here can amend a Bill like that.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oh dear. Robert Peston:
"In the coming three weeks, payouts of hundreds of billions of dollars may be made - or at least demanded - to cover losses arising from the defaults on the debt of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman and Washington Mutual."
And I don't suppose we're going to hear much about how that's going to be fixed if some banks and insurers can't pay.
There really are more important things at issue than an old bit of plagiarism, one moose, or worn-out accusations against ex-presidents . . .even whether one who's been dead for nearly 200 years screwed a slave or not. As I keep trying to say.
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Young Mr Grace,
It pains me more than you might think to be chastised by your good self. I don't wish to excuse my hero, but do hope you can take the time to follow the link provided. All of our heroes have their clay feet, sadly.
;-(
ed
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135.chill0:
"#129 british-ish
This is the article to which Paul Reynolds refers."
Thanks. This is an excellent article.
I feel there has been a tremendous effort to rewrite the events leading up to the war to fit neatly into a post-invasion, anti-war position.
Positions post-invasion are based on not finding WMD's and justifiable anger at Bush and his Administration. That's understandable.
What is not, however, is trying to rewrite events prior to invasion based on events post-invasion.
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Post 183 ArthuPutey
"I also wonder if, given the unfolding longer term consequences of Ronnie's voodoo economic and environmental policies, Reagan might even turn out to be history's all-time #1 bad guy?"
While I'm sure that there will a revision of Reagan (and Thatcher) 's legacy. I doubt Ronnie would really give Hitler, Stalin, Edward I, Caligula .... etc serious competion for the No. 1 spot on such a list.
You're all doing very well !!
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#178
i align myself wholeheartedly with what you have written Bill and nearly all you have written in the past.
however ..... i refuse to completely buy into the BO change/peace/new beginning .
the weight of modern history and the kind of stakes we are talking about : resources , corporate advancement and the global pecking order , i have a horrible vision of Barak slumping into a chair in the Oval Office after the narrowest of victories and before it sinking in , the internal phone rings and the the REAL agenda for the next four years is layed out in full .
i hope for everyone's children's sakes i am a deluded pessimist .
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194. At 1:43pm on 02 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
74. David_Cunard:
"It cannot be beyond American ingenuity to create a health system which at least provides basic care for everyone, much as education is mandated, and no-one complains about their tax dollars being used for that. "
Actually, people are quite dissatisfied with education, which is why the voucher debate exists."
Dissatisfied is one thing - beleiving no tax money should be spent on education, quite another.
"I believe the teachers' union factors into this because, IMO, it puts its own interests ahead of the children's."
Does it? And why would this be, because teacher's have no children? Because teachers' no nothing about teaching, as opposed to right-wing politicians and religious nutters.
Quite an assertion - one supposes US doctors do not care about their patients?
"There is also an ongoing debate about per-pupil spending. Many people advocate increasing it as a means to improve education through smaller class sizes, higher quality teachers, etc. While others use the disparity in per-pupil expenditures, which can be almost triple in some states, as proof that "throwing more money" at education has not led to gains in education--that is, higher expenditures don't necessarily translate into higher student performance."
Which is a fairly childish view - education is not like processing betting slips or making cars.
Human beings are slightly more complex
"I know my concern about government intervention stems from my belief that the government tends to mess things up."
Which is dogma not related to fact. "Government tends to mess things up" as opposed to what? Big Business? The Catholic church? The US army?
These things are not matters of dogma, human beings "mess things up", whether they are in Government or real estate agencies.
"This mortgage debacle is the perfect example. Well-intentioned democrats trying to spread the pride of home ownership wound up messing up the mortgage market. "
And the bankers (republican supporters) had nothing to do with it.
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#53
Marcus
Maybe Heaven will under a new administration. The current lot don't seem to have had too much success getting divine intervention.
Pious Sam
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How to Destroy the USA
;-0
ed
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Don't make too much of the latest polls.
The polls have been steadily oscillating for more than six months between McCain up 2 or so and Obama up 7 or so, with a period of a couple of weeks.
This means there's an excellent chance we'll see McCain up again before the election. It also means, assuming that they're accurate, that chances are Obama will win, but McCain has a real chance.
From what I can tell, the electoral math seems to favor Obama. The biggest worry for McCain isn't Florida, but Virginia. Virginia has been running almost exactly the results of the rest of the country, if not favoring Obama slightly more. It also may be trending towards Obama. Many jobs there are involved with the financial sector, making it more concerned about the economic crisis.
The group which may be moving most towards Obama are the rich, interestingly enough, who may be concluding that the Democrats are better for the economy than the Republicans (which is certainly true in recent times).
So the odds look to be on Obama's side, but we shouldn't make too much of the latest bounce. Good luck and/or the right development, particularly of the "October surprise" kind, can still get McCain elected.
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"192. At 1:37pm on 02 Oct 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:
Post 179
Sorry to disagree with your comment Ed
"Apparently there were many factors, financial, social and political, that prevented him (Jefferson) from freeing his own slaves....."
Either slavery is wrong or it ain't. It can't be justifed as being alright at the time or else we may find that it could be come fashionable once again."
There is also the point that people at the time felt it was wrong.
There is sadly no getting away from the fact that Jefferson was, and knew himself to be, a hypocrite.
And if you beleive people have no rights over thier own bodies, then all other rights fail.
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chill0,
I had no idea Biden was so loose with the facts. I'm not sure people listen to him an awful lot, which may be why he gets away with so much.
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205. Simon21:
It is not necessary to respond to every point made.
Did I say the bankers (not all of whom are republican supporters) weren't to blame?
I said the democrats made changes to the mortgage system which led to this debacle. Those changes were embraced wholeheartedly by bankers, which was not good for the system.
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Simon21,
to help us all make better sense of your input. All these techniques are easySomeone has to say it. I often find myself in general agreement with your comments when I can sort your words from what you are quoting. Too often, the temptation to 'scroll on by' is too great to resist.
Please try and use bold, italic, or both or
Peace ()
ed
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202: Andrea,
I've read the full thing now, rather quickly, and I must say I'm even more astonished. It's breathtaking, isn't it?
I could have written that any time in the last three years.
(And I've been abused--sorry, 'accused'--here of not understanding the USA for saying things not dissimilar.)
I see he prefers to be "at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace" rather than anything to do with that doomed "Project for a New American Century". Sinking ships somehow spring to mind, don't they? I can't really believe it. It must be a spoof? Or his ship's been hijacked by pirates, perhaps.
Could he be, by any chance, positioning himself to be a highly-paid consultant to President Obama? Now there's a scary thought.
All we need now is for John Bolton to do the same sort of thing . . .
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#187
reimburse for 40yrs of peacekeeping?
we can net that out over the 40 years of war-mongering,rape and pillage and being that i am a live and let live guy , you and your kind can write the world a cheque.
the amount would dwarf the back-hander that your 'leaders' are trying to hustle though the Senate.
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# 207
Good old Erika - she's still flying - and seems to have come unzipped as well.
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204:
"I have a horrible vision of Barak slumping into a chair in the Oval Office after the narrowest of victories and before it sinking in , the internal phone rings and the the REAL agenda for the next four years is layed out in full."
Well, neither he nor McCain would; they have a couple of months to think about it. But yes, at some point early next January, that will happen.
It's not like a British PM who walks through the door of No 10 the morning after the vote (having been up most of the night) gets given the rundown and is then asked "Prime Minister, what are your instructions for the country?" before he's even found out where the teabags are.
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All,
With regard to the Kagan piece, May I commend, yet again, a much shorter "September 12th" message...
Salaam, etc.
ed
And yes, British-ish, the PNAC rats will all be seeking new vessels, and we should be seeking new and more effective rodenticides.
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214:
I don't know I'd trust a cheque, things being how they are.
A good start would be compensation for that Iranian Airbus that was shot down.
Maybe instead the Iranians would accept a nuclear reactor or three? Perhaps a bomb or two? (Oops, maybe I shouldn't have said that.)
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# 216 # British
Quite. And what a few of us are worrying about is just what is going to happen between November 4 and Inauguration Day in January. Recent past history gives us little room for confidence.
To take a sidestep from the current discussion. Has anything heard what Oliver Stone is doing ? I understood that he had his film "W" all wrapped up - but a whole new chapter has opened up now and I don't think that people are going to be satisfied by being told that they will have to wait for "W" 2.
Any up-to-date info welcome.
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ref #196 and 197
Ed which part of 196 my diatrabe or the censorship?
In regard to the polling I am not predicting a winner and have said that throughout. I'm extremly scared of Obama policies.
Having said that if you understand the electorial map it comes down to about 8 states.
And everyone from NPR to Fox has said it will be a close election.
I can only assume you get your news from the Obama network MSNBC.
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To Simon21
#212 Ed Iglehart
Don't bother with that stuff. Your posts are just fine as they are.
My nose is growing...
Seriously, may I suggest you add links to confirmatory articles as well.
You come across as just asserting a lot of things without foundation. Of course each person's opinion is also valid but for me it has less force on its own.
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Interesting tidbit on vice-presidential debates from FactCheck.org:
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I understand that Bush approval ratings are now down to 22%.
There is a phrase that if you are stuck in a hole, it is best to stop digging.
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Instructions for jacksforge since he wishes to destroy America, although I don't believe him.
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224:
Thought you'd been there, done that, bought the T-shirt?
As they say, just another little push . . .
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224 ~ DougTexan
Gee - we hadn't that thought of that.
See 207/215
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#202 AndreainNY
People forget that regime change in Iraq was a policy initiated by Bill Clinton.
Bill Clinton frequently cites the Rwanda massacre as his worst foreign mistake. Of course being Bill Clinton, he might just be saying that having done nothing to get the best of both worlds.
The implication of it (if sincere) is the USA as a kind of 'world social worker'. It is why I keep banging on about whether Barack Obama will have an 'ethical foreign policy' or not.
I wish nations did have ethical foreign policies but we are a great many years from it.
Kagan's assertion that:
...is surely what everyone wants to see.
I am sure Ed Iglehart would agree with that, pace Wendell Berry.
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Hey, wrote it a while ago, but some of us work during these hours. Sorry for the inconvience there wanderingangus.
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221 ~ Chills
Don't really understand what you're saying. Just because Ed has enormously superior skills over the rest of us in this pesky link business, it does not mean that he is employed by this site to give every side to every story.
We are meant - as Justin's babes - to be intelligent folk who can seek out our own knowledge and information and then comment on it using this site.
Lots of people want to pin down Justin to their own point of view. Now you want to appropriate Ed to be a sort of dispenser of information from all sides and none.
I didn't like the prompt earlier for him to get involved in the world of Robert Fisk - because people seldom come out of that - but we can accept his skills without asking him to work for us (apart from when wandering cats ask him a favour, of course).
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"211. At 2:37pm on 02 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
"It is not necessary to respond to every point made."
Not necessary, but enjoyable.
"Did I say the bankers (not all of whom are republican supporters) weren't to blame? "
"Yes you said the Democratic party was."
"I said the democrats made changes to the mortgage system which led to this debacle. Those changes were embraced wholeheartedly by bankers, which was not good for the system."
The current mortgage crisis grew under a republican adminstration and a republican congress.
How that translates to the democrats being to blame defeats all sense.
The banking system is one of the big business financiers of the republicans - Mr Paulson for example .
If any political party is to blame it is the republicans - and this fact is being reflected in the polls
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216. british-ish:
204:
"I have a horrible vision of Barak slumping into a chair in the Oval Office after the narrowest of victories and before it sinking in , the internal phone rings and the the REAL agenda for the next four years is layed out in full."
Well, neither he nor McCain would; they have a couple of months to think about it. But yes, at some point early next January, that will happen.
***********************
Makes one think about that claim that Obama really didn't intend to win this year but had his sights on 2012. He probably wishes he'd waited.
This claim is backed up by something called his '2010-2012-2016' plan, which I suggest you Google.
The Beachwood Reporter has an article on Obama's building his brand, which was to have been based on a re-election to the senate or bid for governor, followed by a bid for president in 2012 or 2016. (It's critical, so consider yourself warned.)
Building Brand Obama
In it, the series on Obama done by the Chicago Tribune is referenced. It's an 8-part compilation of articles done on Obama:
Barack Obama: The making of a candidate
Part 8 focuses on Obama's branding:
Carefully crafting the Barack Obama 'brand'
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"227. At 3:33pm on 02 Oct 2008, chill0 wrote:
#202 AndreainNY
People forget that regime change in Iraq was a policy initiated by Bill Clinton.
Bill Clinton frequently cites the Rwanda massacre as his worst foreign mistake. Of course being Bill Clinton, he might just be saying that having done nothing to get the best of both worlds."
No it was his worst mistake - but he was not alone.
There has been no proper accounting of one of the worst atrocities of the late 20th century.
"The implication of it (if sincere) is the USA as a kind of 'world social worker'. It is why I keep banging on about whether Barack Obama will have an 'ethical foreign policy' or not."
Presumably that will depend on how ethical is defined. Bush would hardly say he has an "unethical" foriegn policy.
"I wish nations did have ethical foreign policies but we are a great many years from it.
Kagan's assertion that:
"...The United States and other democratic nations share a common aspiration for a liberal international order, built on democratic principles and held together, however imperfectly, by laws and conventions among nations. ...""
I am not sure Kagan is right. The qualifier is "provided they are not inconvenienced in any way."
The "democratic nations" are also concerned about power and influence.
And in any case the phrase is so vague as to be meaningless.
What will be interesting is who Obama choses as his foriegn Sec. Appointments to this role in the US have gone from the incompetent (Albright) to the farcical (Powell) . The present incumbent is merely irelevant.
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227. chill0:
"202 AndreainNY
People forget that regime change in Iraq was a policy initiated by Bill Clinton"
Yes, and remember Al Gore's speech, in which he excoriates Bush Sr. for not being tough enough on Saddam:
Al Gore Criticizing Bush 41 on Iraq in 1992
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"In regard to the polling I am not predicting a winner and have said that throughout. I'm extremly scared of Obama policies.
Having said that if you understand the electorial map it comes down to about 8 states.
And everyone from NPR to Fox has said it will be a close election."
I agree completely with your forecast of the election, and am getting more and more annoyed at "expert" commentators who apparently haven't glanced at the polls for six months.
However--"extremely scared of Obama policies?"
In all seriousness, it IS very hard to tell what Obama might do, and of course the chances of him being ineffective or worse are very real. On the bright side, whatever he does, it's impossible for him to take the country from its greatest height of peace and prosperity to one of its lowest points ever. The likeliest really scary thing I can think of is to continue the disastrous foreign and domestic policies which have brought us (Yanks) to this pass...
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Simon, so Clinton was wrong to blame the mortgage crisis on the democrats?
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Gus (229),
I think Chill can stick his tongue in his cheek without any bulge showing... I'm still trying to learn Irony, being congenitally hampered as an American.
;-)
ed
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"231. At 3:46pm on 02 Oct 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
216. british-ish:
204:
"I have a horrible vision of Barak slumping into a chair in the Oval Office after the narrowest of victories and before it sinking in , the internal phone rings and the the REAL agenda for the next four years is layed out in full."
Well, neither he nor McCain would; they have a couple of months to think about it. But yes, at some point early next January, that will happen.
***********************
Makes one think about that claim that Obama really didn't intend to win this year but had his sights on 2012. He probably wishes he'd waited.
This claim is backed up by something called his '2010-2012-2016' plan, which I suggest you Google.
The Beachwood Reporter has an article on Obama's building his brand, which was to have been based on a re-election to the senate or bid for governor, followed by a bid for president in 2012 or 2016. (It's critical, so consider yourself warned.)
Building Brand Obama
In it, the series on Obama done by the Chicago Tribune is referenced. It's an 8-part compilation of articles done on Obama:
Barack Obama: The making of a candidate
Part 8 focuses on Obama's branding:
Carefully crafting the Barack Obama 'brand'"
The wonder is do you actually beleive this? Do you beleive Barak Obama wishes he would lose this election?
DO you actually beleive he went through all the effort of beating Hillary Clinton etc etc, for a laugh?
Have you never met a politician?
No wonder the right is on the run if this is the best they can do.
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"235. At 3:56pm on 02 Oct 2008, seanspa wrote:
Simon, so Clinton was wrong to blame the mortgage crisis on the democrats?"
Common sense says yes.
The democrats do not hand out mortgages or make banking decisions.
And they were not in power.
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It seems that Clinton has learned his lesson about the "they're picking on us" argument and that Thompson hasn't. When politicians start this, I do the same thing I do when my children use the argument. I ignore them and hope they can be redirected to something constructive.
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It's the same Kagan who supported this:
"American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council."
And wrote this:
"The genius of American power is expressed in the movie The Godfather II, where, like Hyman Roth, the United States has always made money for its partners. America has not turned countries in which it intervened into deserts; it enriched them."
Hmm.
And I seem to remember the US still refuses top acknowledge the International Criminal Court, and Rumsfeld (supported by many of this man's colleagues said the Geneva Conventions were 'outdated'.
I could go on, but, as someone not that long ago who thought we were going to see "a liberal international order, built on democratic principles and held together, however imperfectly, by laws and conventions among nations. ..." until these same 'thinkers' ruined it, I find it downright sickening and I don't have the stomach to highlight any more of that man's utter hypocrisy.
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Redwhiteandermblue,
Updated several times daily.Share & Enjoy
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# 23l Andrea
Your over-excited post may go down in history and may be deconstructed by students for ever more.
As I wrote before, when you are in a deep hole - stop digging !
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Justin no comment on the swing in the polls away from McCain?
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Oct02.html reckons on a 6% advantage to Obama (averaged 10 polls), and currently is predicting a landslide.
Also- here is one of Obama's most effective adverts on the economic crisis in Florida- bringing home the impact it has on senior citizens. Notice Florida is very much back in the ball game for Obama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWX6d7r-bpk
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"240. At 4:07pm on 02 Oct 2008, british-ish
"The genius of American power is expressed in the movie The Godfather II, where, like Hyman Roth, the United States has always made money for its partners. America has not turned countries in which it intervened into deserts; it enriched them."
This will come as news to the people of Haiti, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala etc etc.
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A certain lack of faith in the bailout? [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator](hope it works! - sheepish grin) ed
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If folks are going to post great hunks of previous posts, they should put them into into italics. At the moment lazy posting is muddling some very good points of view from all sides.
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231. AndreainNY:
What the article doesn't comment on although it unintentionally highlights it is, that BO and his advisers were spot on in identifying the future mood of the voting public and crafting a strategy to position him to ride it.
It certainly casts doubts on claims of his political naivite.
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236. Ed Iglehart
I suggest a course on Chaucer to help you.
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Re: 234-
Current polls don't show a close election- they show a comfortable win for Obama (5.9%), 10 national polls all show him leading (even Battleground which doesn't weight young voters as heavily).
Sure polls change, but why so sure that this election will be close? The fact that Obama is leading in Colorado, Florida, Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada, Ohio and Virginnia at the moment means that McCain must spend money to try and turn this around, spreading his resources thinner. If the Palin/Biden debate goes badly, the trend to Obama will accelerate.
There's no guarentee of a close election at all.
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220."And everyone from NPR to Fox has said it will be a close election."
They may have been saying that 3 weeks ago, but it is no longer a close race. Take a look at this list of electoral vote prediction sites. There are none which show McCain with 270 EVs or more and only one, MV Red, which shows McCain in the lead. By contrast, 78 sites show Obama in the lead with 46 giving him 270 votes or more. The bias of each site is included in the chart as well. Not surprisingly the three sites which do not show Obama in the lead (2 are ties) are all Republican sites. In fact, on the main page of MVRed, there is a video titled "Hitler's Youth=Obama's youth".
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Classically Clintonian, slimy, sleazy--why do you good people at the BBC give this man the time of day?
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Sorry, but 231 doesn't make any sense. How many candidates ever get the financial backing to make a second attempt?
Especially with the enormous amount of money this one is costing. (I worked out once that it would probably pay for two centuries of British General Elections.)
I am sure Obama didn't expect to get the nomination at the beginning; he didn't seem to behave as though he did. Maybe he aimed initially at getting a chance of VP to Clinton's P. Or some other prestige job.
But if you can be persuaded any politician enters into any election planning to lose . . .Or once at this point won't fight like hell to avoid losing . . .
Well, in all kindliness, the French have a word for it, but I'll leave it at that.
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Polls are one thing, but betting is another. All y'all believers in McPalin can get two to one odds, while us Obamaniacs have to put up two to get one....(unless we already placed our bets at eleven to five during McPalin's post-convention bounce ;-)))
Betting here (play money) and Here (for real - be careful!)
Or, you could simply take Ms Marbles' cue and have a flutter on AIG, FNM & FRE....bottom fishing.
$$$$$
ed
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The more supportive stump speeches for Obama the better...none too fond of either VP candidate but Biden DEFINITELY the lesser evil and BC has pointed that out nicely.
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#231
thank you for your care and concern re: 'you have been warned'.
i have a decent early warning system of my own which is a blessing and a curse . the curse is watching geopolitical games unfold as predicted and with it , it's loss of human life.
i do not wish to sound like Nostradamus so i will credit an old Rastafarian in the mountains of Trelawney who explained well in advance that Bush Jnr would not allow his 'Pappy' to get 'slap down' by Saddam and get away with it. when i opined that surely it was more to do with oil , he chuckled and said ' 'im no need no mo money'.
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David,
Ironically (?), It was the first major course on my MA(English) programme... I completed the course, but not the MA, so maybe that's the problem... And my Professors always said overuse of ellipsis was a fault...Complain about this comment
244: I came across a complete list once; I think it listed about 46 since about 1880, only I've forgotten where I saw it. I remember it missed out the invasion of the Philppines. (The first one, I mean.)
It didn't include Native American lands either.
I think we can safely add Georgia and South Ossetia (by proxy) to get it up to date.
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British-ish,
That reminds me of something someone said awhile ago...;-)
ed
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post 201
Ed - now I feel bad if I've upset you. Please put your smilie face back on.
It would be most interesting to be able to go back in time an talk to Jefferson and find out why he kept slaves if he was so truely opposed to it.
I suppose we all have feet of clay and I think we should all recognise this when looking at our heroes.
A hero of mine is Andrew Carnegie. Someone who from poverty became wealthy and who then give away a fortune to encourage reading and learning and the desire for self-improvement but someone who as a successful "robber baron" also acted without scrupples.
We need to be able to see the good without stopping being aware of the lessons of the bad. Being human ain't easy.
You're all doing very well !!
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We need to identify the myths that inform the American political discourse:
"...The American mass psyche has at least five characteristics. Eric Hoffer described certain defects in the American mass psyche: the worship of success; equating quantity with quality; valuing only the practical; being fascinated with the trivial; and being addicted to movement.
We also have the “American Hustler”, whom Hoffer sees as a plastic man adapting to change but lacking the ideology and the magic of communion.
Rokeach (1973) discussed contending values in North American society. The mechanisms of the consumer society involve distribution, not purpose. Missing are external goals, a sense of mission, of contribution- things that contribute to finding a “purpose and meaning” in life.
Do such material values as comfort, pleasure, excitement, or titillation have anything to do with having a sense of purpose? To supply missing psychic elements, a revived interest in religion, or the search for an ideology, might be expected..."
From 'Mind and Ideology' ISBN 9780920282113.
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Meanwhile...
and
Meanwhile...
There doesn't seem to be tremendous confidence in the bailout...
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Clinton looked a bit wobbly during the primaries - nearly ruining his "street cred" - but the man knows how to deliver. Imagine having someone as charasmatic as Obama, but with +8 years of the top job being at your back.
Undoubtably helps Obama in the "experience" category too, to have Pres. Clinton throwing his lofty resumé behind him.
What do you reckon to Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State? I suspect the Clintons have been offered something more important than V.P
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#260, Xie_Ming, Hoffer wrote some great stuff,
but to draw conclusions like:
"Missing are external goals, a sense of mission, of contribution- things that contribute to finding a ?purpose and meaning? in life."
implies that you really do not understand us at all.
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# 240
Another spot to watch [warily] is the "American Heritage" Institute or Foundation.
This seems to be a well-paid holding pen for ideologues between jobs (e.g. Rice, Bolton, and worse).
[Yes, it is close to the Israel Lobby].
___________________
There was some comment above about the planners and perpetrators of the Iraq fiasco and other disastrous policies denying their involvement and publishing books to proclaim their innocence.
To review the score- check csmonitor.com and review their article "NeoCon 101". The perpetrators, including the infamous Richard
Perle, Wm Kristol, et. al. have left an uneraseable paper trail.
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258 - goodie- printed off and now on peg board.
And Dear Young Mr Grace - it goes on and on - as someone else said today why doesn't Bill Gates step in with his millions.
But we can't allow it because for all we know Bill Gates may hold some intransigent views which would be unacceptable to all sides of the electorate. We have rich people and we have politicians; we have manifestos and political beliefs that folk can agree or disagree with - and its always far healthier for democracy if there is a wide divide between the two.
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#261, Ed, just because someone is able to get
you on the operating table in time to perform
open heart surgery does not mean that a week
later you will be able to win a gold medal at
the Olympics.
Over the last 4-5 years, the risk premium was
effectively reduced to artificially low levels for
all investments, under the illusion that globalization
was the cure for all ills.
An amazingly big chicken is coming home to
roost, and who knows how big its appetite is?
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Ref 208
I agree. The polls will probably stabilise once the financial crisis moves out of the news agenda. That will happen next week after Congress approves the bailout.
If there is a terrorist incident, McCain will probably get a boost and if Palin performs well tonight, Obama's momentum may stall.
There is still a heck of a long way to go and many twists and turns to come
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Bill for the 'Rich' as only 1.9% earn two hundred fifty thousand or more yearly, couple that with the 3% of disposable income savings rate.
Write to your house representative (okay, US citizens only) and stop this throw away spree of dollar value. It is a back pocket tax, by devaluing your dollar while giving you nothing in return. The 'credit' crunch is a lie, imposed and sold (marketed) to the American people. How dumb are we, wasn't eight years of Bush enough to teach you that if he wants it, it is wrong! And he wants this like he wanted Saddam Hussain.
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G&R (266),
But some stuff is sooooo cheap! And it has the Govmint behind it (full faith & credit, no less)
Can't lose more than your total bet, and from $2 there's considerable upside...
Never borrow for what you don't need.
Never think you need what you have to borrow for.
-Irish Proverb
Never gamble with what you need.
Never think you need what you gamble for.
-Ed Proverb
"We are often cautioned that we must live in the 'real world' by folk
who mean 'money', a concept more abstract than theoretical physics."
-- Ed Iglehart
"it is unseemly to quote one's self!"
--anon
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I think this superbly explains the problems Obama has connecting with rural voters, and why so many people still vote against their economic interests for cultural and personal reasons. If Obama was a more "conventional" candidate, this election would be over already.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4862580.ece
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Check out how Pakistani premier Zardari was salivating all over Sarah Palin when they met. She may not be as well-read as Joe Biden but she'll get a huge amount of attention from dinosaur patriarchs around the world just by looking good. She will also get a lot of media coverage, a la Mme Sarkozy. Of course, this is merely ambassadorial - but it could perhaps have a significant impact on the way the US is viewed in the rest of the world.... Or is that too cynical?
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Doug,
Well said! I suspect the old adage will prevail, that nobody ever lost money betting on our general stupidity.How dumb we are! (in both senses)
;-(
ed
P.S. The Arabs call those of us who don't speak Arabic "Ajam", which meaans "dumb"...;-)
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# 260 #263
It seems that there was something the moderation did not comprehend- I will put it in simpler form.
Rokeach (whom you cite above) was an American psychologist. Hoffer worked on the docks while writing best-selling philosophy.
These individuals are talking about the American psyche.
The MYTHS that inform the American psyche are another matter. They include the "City on the Hill" vision, the Wild West frontier individualist, the missionary of truth, justice and civilization, etc.
As can be seen here, there is a contradiction between the myth, the psyche and the reality.
A blog that seeks to treat of America should look at these contradictions.
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267
I don't think that Palin can rescue the situation. A win for her would be not to look ridiculous. I think her main tactic will be to distance herself from her more vulnerable views like abortion etc as being her personal beliefs but not ones she would impose on others. Blidens best tactic, I think, would be to expand any question into more esoteric areas that she wouldn't have been prep'd on and toss the it back to her for comment. Either she'll fall for it and look totally out of her depth, or go back to her prep'd lines and look evasive. The worst thing for Palin to do would be to attack as Blidens geniality and experience would easily deflect it.
Even if Palin managed to "win" this debate (whatever that is), it would be at the expense of whatever VP credentials she might have, as far as the undecideds are concerned.
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AndreainNY
Good links on Barry, the one point that still stick out is how he able to make his grandmother 'off limits'. While not a single school 'chum' is yet to be found, not a single former girlfriend, teamate from debate teams, friends from in his book.. nothing. His past is the sum total of what he is selling,.. he says it, and the masses follow.
Yet, Palin has had a slew of reporters, investigators and challanges made. From sisters and friends, co players on her team and school teachers, diner waitresses and others have all come to be interviewed,.. and if they are contrary we hear it, but none of the compliments.
Thanks
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ref249 and 250
2 weeks ago McCain had a ten point lead. the only poll that matter is Nov 4
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Any comments these generalizations would be most welcome:
"...Many American attitudes seem to have been consistent since De Tocqueville. The American economic environment at the founding of the republic was one of plenty. Land was easily available and manpower was scarce.
Socially, there was fluidity and opportunity. Isolation permitted resistance to Britain.
The lawyer, rather than the priest, was the spokesman of the community. In general, the idea that value can be measured with dollars seems to be an unexamined assumption in American discourse..."
'Mind and Ideology' pg. 51 ISBN 9780920282113
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269
Doug, I also questioned the $250,000 limit, up from $100,000. It appears it was increased to ensure Rep backing. At least they've come clean on which constituency they represent, in this matter.
I hope the House democrats throw this inclusion out.
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Thanks for that, Cyril, though it brings tears to my eyes.
;-(
ed
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272 - Orangu Tom
We went over this ground earlier today and can I recommend that you visit # 141 above and click onto the blue words where they say Mrs. Palin.
The upshot is that she has already caused a Fatwa to be issued on the new President of Pakistan.
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Bill, prtsl (sp) and others:
I think it will be a close election because of history, very recent and fairly recent.
Very recent:
Poll numbers have bounced between McCain up about 2 and Obama up about 7 5-10 times in 6 months. Chances are, if the past is any guide, they will again.
Fairly recent:
See the last two elections. Very little changed in 4 years. Poll numbers indicate very little has changed in the next 4 years. Chances are very little will be different in this election than the last two.
Of course, I'm only speaking probabilities. There are a combination of circumstances which could push the election into new territory. The failed economy has clearly pushed Obama's numbers. It or something else may make it something other than another close election.
But I wouldn't bet on it, and I wouldn't give very long odds on McCain winning, either.
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DT, AndreainNY, this sort of sums up what
we know about Mr. O:
What's he building in there?
I don't care what his qualifications are, I still
don't know the guy.
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Magic (277),
Oh yeah? Only ONE poll in this long list shows 10% for McCain.Keep drinking the Kool-Ade
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Has anyone else seen Pestons latest thread? No wonder there's a panic to get this bill passed. It look likes the next 3 weeks is crunch time, something the various governments have omitted to explain.
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Xie_Ming, as you said:
"Rokeach (whom you cite above) was an American psychologist. Hoffer worked on the docks while writing best-selling philosophy."
That's probably why I revere Hoffer as a genius
of the 50's and 60's, every bit as much as Timothy
Leary and the Beatniks. This probably also
explains why I don't particularly trust Obama.
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xie_meng, the generalizations you've posted are interesting and well-written analyses. However, as you point out, they are generalizations, and belong to the realm of literature, not science. This may sound like an attack on their validity, but it's not. I enjoy these sorts of well-observed, seemingly valid generalizations.
One of many questions which might be asked, however, is whether the value system attributed to Americans would not be better attributed to modern capitalism. Are these sorts of economically driven, non-religious values American?, or are they the fruit of expansive capitalism, which took root first in the US both because it was the hotpoint of this capitalism, and because, being an essentially rootless people allowed other, older values to be swept aside more easily?
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#269, DT, I think the credit crunch is going to be
a real problem, especially when ordinary folks
can't get paid.
The issue that I have with the bailout is that
somehow all of these extremely smart bankers
and financial folks want to pass this enormous
tar baby off to us working folks, while they get
their slate wiped clean and a new batch of
our money to play with.
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Ed, David, Cyril, British et al
Andrew Sullian (search engine Andrew Sullivan) has a video (posted 1.34 p.m. ET) of a speech by a Trades Unionist. Too long for transfer to this site but well worth a look.
It is very possible that I am getting overwrought - but it brought a tear to my eye.
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#128. wanderingangus; #212 re Simon21
ALthough Ed has posted his own tutorial on making links and manipulating text, I found this site rather easier to follow. (http://www.pageresource.com/html/textags.htm)
There are further instructions to be found by clicking on the various Navigation links. It's really extremely simple!
#256 Ed "And my Professors always said overuse of ellipsis was a fault..."
If that's the example, then it is aposiopesis. Did they not correct you when beginning a sentence with a conjunction :)
#251. OldSouth: "Classically Clintonian, slimy, sleazy--why do you good people at the BBC give this man the time of day?"
Because, regardless of his peccadilloes, he is a former President. You wouldn't have said that about Ronald Reagan, who was a divorcee - rejecting the phrase "till death us do part" of his marriage vows. So much for rectitude.
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GnA, 283
Chicken coop, with ceiling fan and window a/c unit, central heat, cubicals for twenty hens, one rooster perch, auto egg drop and carton rack.
What did I win?
Sure hope I beat AndreainNY, with this creamy canned credit pinch being spoon fed to the democrats and republicans alike a new bicycle, slightly used without a flat would nice,.. better if had a motor.
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# 283 - Guns
I would love to know what Tom Waits has to say about his song being used in this way.
And are you serious ...... do you honestly feel that after the last two years of the man and his family being on full view, with the support of all the head honchos of the Democratic party, you don't know the man ?
What more do you want - for him to invite you to go to bed with him ?
I take back my previous comment about the Trade Union speech being too long - if we can have five minutes of Tom Waits in one of his more obscure moods, we can have five minutes of speech from an honest and forthright Trades Union Leader.
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Now we know where the lobby for this bill comes from, of course they need money to wrap Gifts
Follow this through for "real special" intrest from Texas
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Preview
;-)
ed
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Obama is still gaining. If the election were to be held today he would win by a landslide. Gambler's odds: Obama 66.9, McCain 33.
Unless the meese hunter is a blockbuster success tonight, nothing will change. The economy is all and this mess happened with the Republicans in office.
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The FDIC insurance limit on regular (non-retirement) accounts has been unchanged for about 30 years. Raising it from $100,000 to $250,000 merely adjusts for inflation. The increase provided in the bill expires at the end of 2009. Its purpose is short-term: to shore up confidence in the banks to avoid a "run." Next year we will have a new administration, and new legislation to try to provide a long-term solution.
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277, Ubermensch.
"2 weeks ago McCain had a ten point lead. the only poll that matter is Nov 4"
He NEVER had a ten point lead, unless it was one of those polls where you volunteer a vote. You always seem to skew things to your advantage. Well, if it makes you feel better....
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It's now been an hour since this site has had any movement.
So I ask again.
Does Tom Waits know how his song and video are being used for political purposes ?
As most artists have so far asked the Republican party to withdraw any use of their work, we have a right to know. And the BBC need to tell us because if they need a relationship with any part of the community, its with our artists.
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I'm glad Pres. Clinton is getting in on the campaign- albeit late. Unfortunately I'm afraid his actions during the primaries have already tarnished his legacy to the point where this is just damage control. As for making the case against Gov. Palin, well, that isn't exactly difficult, is it?
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282. RedWhiteandermblue,
To a certain extent, I agree. The poll numbers are being severely influenced by the state of the economy, and Obama will only maintain this large lead so long as the electorate is worried. But I don't think there is another issue on the horizon that can possibly replace this one. Even in the event of a bailout, Republicans will still have to deal with voter backlash (and make no mistake, it's the incumbent party which bares the brunt of the attack when voters rise up against congress).
Still, I expect McCain to rise a bit in the polls in the coming weeks as the fear partially subsides. But to win he'd need to take OH, FL, VA, NC, MO, IN and NH, a complete sweep of the board in close races (he can maybe afford to lose CO). Barring a major surprise (something like: 'Obama is secretly the CEO of Freddie Mac!'), I don't see that happening.
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It looks like the moderators haven't paid their mortgage.
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Okay, just for grins I though I'd get a credit card today, considering I work from home wityh very little income I applied online for credit,..credit crunch be damned, I was approved in five minutes,.... for more than I wanted. So why do we need this?
If you got your credit rating at acceptable levels,.e.g. you pay your bills, there is no credit crunch. GW is effin with the market, taxing us through our wallet by lowering the value of our dollar.
Our GNP is dropping and the printing presses are running full blast turning out the 135 billion just approved for Freddie and Fannie, Strauss and others. Being that the dollar is based on the GNP, add it up and we just lost five percent of our dollar value.
The EU is doing the same thing,..
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somebody should really fix this site so that
posts do not occasionally disappear into the ether.
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286
Beatniks was a peculiarly english word. Are you sure you don't mean Beat Generation of Kerouac, Corso etc? "I have seen the best minds of my generation...."
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GnA 288
Exactly, ready to steal again, or even legitamently by "management" of our funds.
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Did anyone watch Buffet last night with Charlie Rose? He said that we had to pass the bailout and the longer we waited the more money would be needed. He also said there will be a recession in any case, but much ameliorated by the bailout. He thinks it will probably take two years to recover, maybe longer.
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285. At 6:36pm on 02 Oct 2008, David_de_Jong
Thanks for Preston Pick notice,.. he explains the situation very well. Liquidity is the problem, but only of the established banks that over extended themselves.
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Hi Justin and everyone else.
I teach US Politics in a UK Sixth form and this election has been fascinating for me and my students.
Looking at the latest polls it does seem that Obama is pulling out an insurmountable lead.
Is there anyway he could lose from here?
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Biden, Beware The Huffington Post
Hale "Bonddad" Stewart
Just a couple of quotes, one on the financial standing, other on the debate.
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Just thought I'd take a moment to say I can hardly remember being part of such an intelligent and civilized debate.
Cheers to all of us! [insert silly beer emoticon here]
We may be time-wasters and work-shirkers (at least I am), the larger point remains that we can conduct a reasonable and interesting discussion.
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http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501ampstatus=articleampid=302137342405551
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#292, WA, there are a lot of dots in Obama's
life that just don't connect.
The guy reinvents himself too easily for me.
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Yes. I tried to interest people in that six hours ago. To no avail, he says, sadly. (Post 200)
Many are more interested in just repeating old opinions and unsubstantiated old rumours about the Veep2be, sadly.
I don't expect, somehow, the two veepies to consider that rather chilling prospect tonight, either.
Well, if Palin doesn't read any newspapers, she won't be reading any economics on the BBC, either, will she? Especially the Beeb. It'd be unAmerican or something.
287, Redwhiteandermblue: probably, yes. I wonder, though, if there is some psychology of having been a slave-owning society at the time of industrialisation that has something to do with it developing in the USA?
Once you assign human beings a monetary value, you stop assigning them a social or community one, and that's all they are. Which is basically the philosophy of the 'Masters of the Universe, isn't it?
And both Reagan and Thatcher and their economic advisers were people who "knew the cost of everything and the value of nothing".
(Slavery has had a malign influence in recent political policy too. I was very puzzled by that phrase "extraordinary rendition". Does anybody realise that "rendition" was the term for returning escaped slaves to their owners? That tells you something, doesn't it?)
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#295, Ms. Marbles, we have taken a few gale-force
winds. The eye of the storm is just ahead.
As you probably know, I instinctively don't trust
Obama. I probably wouldn't even look him in
the eye if I had to debate him.
But, beyond that, since the next 4 years are
going to be even worse for most folks (myself
excluded, of course) than the last 4, shouldn't
we give the job of cleaning up to a Republican
administration?
Either they get us back on track, and we can
all break out the champaign in 2012, or they
screw up some more, and the Democrats walk in.
If the Dems win this time, they're just going to
take the blame as things get worse.
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#292, #298, WA, I'm just a commentator on
this blog, and by no means a die-hard republican.
I'm posting a link to a youtube video to explicate
a point - that I don't know enough about a candidate
to trust him.
I would see any removal of my post as censorship.
Don't you have free speech in the UK?
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#293, DT, that's wonderful stuff.
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#294, Ed, that was absolutely wonderful!
any more like that, please pass it along...
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#304, David_d... "Beatnik" was a word used
by my parents when I was growing up in the
60's as a derogatory example to induce me
to dress up for special occasions.
I don't know about the word's origins, but
it was in common American usage during the
60's, and came to be associated with the
"pre-hippie" movement of the late 50's.
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I got sidetracked and ended up with "The Atlas of the Real World".
Perhaps someone could nip out and buy it for Ms Palin. It would be a handy visual aid for tonight. For others, too.
The Atlas of the Real World
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Given that it is taking so long to update the site I thought this may amuse a few in about an hours time while you are waiting for some more substantive comments:
the worst president ever
And how long has Justin's blog been pre-moderated? Did people not play nicely? The explanation says that pre moderation is something always used on children's blogs...did they ever explain why it is being used on this blog?
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After a few weeks of lurking I've finally managed to get in here properly. Sadly I suspect work gremlins will manage to block me so it will have to be day readings and evening postings.
That's evenings to us Brits....8.48pm here and the moderators are just downing a few before they can carry on, hence the mega delays.
So, test transmission to start ..............
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Here is our only Senator who gets it.
Sorry about the previous linking, didn't work as it was from Investors weekly. The ampersands screw with it big time.
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308, Davey.
"Is there anyway he could lose from here?"
I don't see how, given the state of the economy. Even with a bailout there will not be a dramatic recovery. An unexpected event, or some sleazy gossip, might affect the Obama surge. It will be interesting to see if the release of cell phone numbers changes things somewhat. But that would only be to Obama's advantage.
Obama, at this point, looks unstoppable.
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And, WA, by the way, what on earth would make
you think that I would trust the "head honchos of the
Democratic party" any more than the Republican
ones?
Obama's plan is for us to increase our debt
by $4.3 trillion, and McCain's equally untenable
plan is to increase our debt by $2.1 trillion.
Why would I trust either candidate at this point?
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#311, DT, I can't access your link. Is there another
way to get to it?
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307:
That is true. The whole point is that no bank will be sure it hasn't 'over-extended itself' until the bills come in. That's the whole problem!
You are imagining banks as businesses that take X dollars from savers, keep it in the safe, and lend less than X to borrowers, so if the electricity bill is more than the difference when it comes due, they are 'overextended'.
It's not as simple as that. There aren't any like that any more. I thought there had been enough articles explaining it all.
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Ptrsln, it may be all in how you look at it. I saw someone giving 2-1 odds Obama would win, and that seems in the ballpark to me, maybe even a little short. But if someone told me I had a 2/3 chance of making it through the day alive, or even a 4/5 chance, I wouldn't be buying green bananas.
I also agree that the electoral college looks like a numbers/probability game McCain will lose. He has to wrench a state or two away from the blues, preferrably a big one, and he's never looked that much like doing it. He's been close in Michigan and Minnesota, but the economy seems to have taken those out of the picture. His best chance may be Pennsylvania, but things don't look good there for him at the moment either. For him to win all the close big states, (VA, Florida, Ohio, maybe North Carolina), and not lose more than one or two of the small to medium size ones (Colorado, New Mexico, Iowa), seems a very slender hope.
Finally, the financial crisis will have to be replaced in the headlines, it seems, for McCain to win. But a month is a long time, and it may well.
Davey: a few of the infinite ways Obama could lose.
1. The past pattern continuing, in which the candidates have swung past each other in the polls every month or so.A middling Obama gaffe.
2. An October surprise, probably in foreign policy. An invasion of Pakistan or Iran, though I pray this doesn't happen.
3. The polls not being right, which is a very real possibility. Many have speculated that a significant number say they'll vote for Obama, and then will vote against him.
4. Any kind of significant gaffe or brouhaha involving Obama.
5. The financial crisis being replaced in the headlines by a republican-friendly issue. (See 2., above)
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314:
"since the next 4 years are going to be even worse for most folks . . than the last 4, shouldn't we give the job of cleaning up to a Republican administration?"
You mean you want to try that again! The triumph of hope over experience. . .
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295. At 7:12pm on 02 Oct 2008, allmymarbles
Just to be safe, hedge that bet, alot can happen in the last four weeks. Please.
This 'Rescue Bill' here is a game to the senate and house, more money and power, leaving (hiding) out all issues, mudding the water of all that is sensable.
Just a question, immigration, education, healthcare, Iraq, Afganistan, Gas shortage in Carolinas, surplus and fuel prices dive in New England in a price war, drug wars in Mexico, banks in trouble world over,.... what is on your nightly news.
If it is like the NBC, ABC, CBS and FOX here in Texas, economy bad, Obama/McCain Good(depends on which half hour), local weather, local murder, local school budget crisis (code for higher property taxes on the horizon), sports and on to the premier show of the evening.
Our newspaper is even worse, such a over the top Liberal anti anything republican newspaper, I love it. That said, without the internet I'd be just like 75% of the people, I would have no idea about so many things that the analytical mind needs to form even a wrong opinion.
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Guns and religions, as an anti-Republican (I consider the Democrats the lesser of two great evils), I also tended to see the advantage of the Republicans having to clean up the mess they got us into. But because I do like Obama, I hope he gets elected anyway, though god help him if he does.
On not knowing much about Obama/not knowing what he's going to do: I've thought about this, and it seems to me the candidates of the party out of power say a lot of things, and none of it should be taken very seriously.
FDR said he'd balance the budget and proved the most leftist president the US ever had.
Nixon campaigned as an old-fashioned conservative and proved to be the most friendly president we've ever had to communist regimes, and the one who passed the most liberal legislation.
Carter campaigned as a decent guy, and proved to be yet another liar.
Reagan campaigned as an old-fashioned conservative, and ran up the biggest deficits in history up to that time.
Clinton campaigned as a populist and passed as much conservative legislation as almost anyone.
You could argue that Eisenhower, who said he'd get us out of Korea and did, may be an exception.
But the truth is, history suggests when you hand the keys of government over to a new guy, you really don't have a clue where he's going to drive the car.
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308. daveyh82
Now you've done it. There is a reason why a certain Shakespearean work is only ever referred to as "The Scottish Play". There are words that must not be said when the starting pitcher has 2 out in the bottom of the ninth, and none have yet reached base.
Obama supporters want you to step outside, turn around three times, and spit.
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315:
No. I'd have thought that must be pretty obvious given some of what you read here.
But the BBC, being a public corporation, is very cautious about things like copyright infringement, and a lot of stuff on sites like Youtube does infringe copyright. It also has to be equally careful over our laws of libel.
In fact, I'm surprised sometimes at what the moderators do allow through.
That, I think, is why some posts with links disappear. But then, the software for these blogs has its glitches, too.
"Just because they're out to get me doesn't me I'm paranoid."
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pollyvodka (#320), didn't you answer your own question?
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Ed, the 23/6 site you linked to includes a fairly even-handed sub-site. I think it lists people called Richard.
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Ed - 294 - Brilliant!
British-ish - 319 - that is great link too.
thanks both
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#304 wrote: "Beatniks was a peculiarly english word. Are you sure you don't mean Beat Generation of Kerouac, Corso etc?"
The 'beat' in 'beatnik' does apply to Kerouac et al, however, if by 'english' you mean of British origin, you appear to be incorrect as this entry demonstrates in its fifth paragraph.
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gunsandreligion (#318), the word "beatnik" was coined by the late Herb Caen, a columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle to refer to the people who called themselves "hipsters." It was derived from the recently launched Sputnik satellite, which gave rise to a lot of "nik" names, and from the word "beat," which was an adjective sometimes used by the hipsters to describe their condition, as in "I'm beat, man."
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326. At 8:57pm on 02 Oct 2008, british-ish
Got to disagree, with credit cards, interest, savin........and all the ways a bank make, earn money, they haven't been this over since 1970s (forget 1929, so long ago and another/different situation) in the US, (Savings and Loans) and from a recent article from a link posted or from Justins links the Brits haven't been overextended until 2001. This mess is on purpose and done with forethought to 'change' the way we do business.
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This blog started with "Bill on fire". It didn't mean that's what we have to do to heat our homes now.
What have Bill and Hill been doing for the cause these last few weeks anyway? Seems a little strange to just pop up as if the events of the spring and summer (and previous autumn and winter and the spring and summer before that) never happened?
Does anyone know what Chelsea (Chelsy? Chelsey?) is up to these days - prospective Secretary of State perhaps?
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#328, british-ish, you don't understand US politics.
We can't fix anything until it completely collapses.
As Lincoln said, "There are too many piglets,
and not enough teats."
FDR had the advantage that he took office after
the crash had happened, and the economy tanked.
Here we are at (or just before) the crash. It takes
a long time to hit bottom. As Justin has pointed out,
we are not addicted to oil, we are addicted to debt.
Like any junkie, we want to take the easy way out.
Just give us another drug to replace the bad one!
But, of course, there is no substitute for easy money.
Honestly, I can't see why anybody would want
the job of POTUS at this point.
And, here is a point that perhaps is not obvious
to our European friends: Americans, since the
60's, are used to instant gratification. I was
at the supermarket, and engaged in a conversation
with a checker who asked: "When Obama gets
in, gas prices will go down, right?"
Most Americans have never known hard times,
although things have gotten progressively more
difficult over the last 8 years.
So, who do you want to take the blame for
the big hangover which is going to afflict us:
the Dems or the Reps?
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Oh this is funny McSame*MILF and McCain as a character in Dr. Strangelove
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Addendum to post #337. It seems the term "hipster" is being applied to certain groups of people in the current counterculture. I meant, of course, the hipsters of the 1950s and early 1960s, who were associated with "cool" (bebop) jazz, espresso (long before Starbucks popularized it), and so forth.
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The government should invest in massive public works projects. Our infrastructure isn't worth a slice of London pizza anyway: we could employ millions while fixing a major problem with our country.
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#338, DT, you are even more conspiratorially
suspicious than I.
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Oh, and don't trust any country that doesn't like baseball!
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318.gunsandreligion
We seem to be of a similar age. Beatniks in england were seen as duffle coated, sandal wearing, traditional jazz loving dropouts. In reality they were the product of the CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament) whose sign was the hippie peace "V" which was the amalgamation of the semaphore signals for CND.
In those days Eastern England was the 4 minute warning line for a nuclear attack from Russia, and we were rather nervous.
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329:
I sympathise; we can see the early evening CBS and ABC News here in the early hours of the morning (one on BBC News 24, the other on Sky News).
Interestingly, both channels tend to dump them when there's a serious news story that needs talking about.
After a few years, I've finally grasped they are more about entertainment than news.
But if there is to be an invasion of Iran or Pakistan to bolster the Republican's chances (and dubbya isn't actually that stupid--I hope) we'll know from the surge of anti one or the other propaganda stories that will appear on both night after night.
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Gna,
McCarthyism is starting to disturb my sleep,... :)
I've tried this twice now, this works or not
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Here's a much better discussion of "beat" and "hip" than provided by my off-the-top-of-my-head attempt:
http://www.litkicks.com/Topics/BeatEtymology.html
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dickipedia is funny
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Brit-ish you are so right, time for me to wrap it up for while,.. ya'll enjoy the "Palin" we're about to see. Back soon after the debate with 'Justin Time'
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David 336 and Gary 337
Thanks for the explaination. It goes to show how parochial our memories can be. At least we Brits can claim the peace sign as ours!
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247, british-ish.
Any war with Iran or Pakistan would have to be made to look like an attack on their part. We we to attack then McCain should not bother even casting his own vote.
However, I do not put anything past Bush. He could fake an attack on us, I guess.
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#346, David_d, and they had goatee beards,
like the Maynard G. Krebs character of the
Dobbie Gillis show.
That was probably my favorite show when I
was growing up.
And, suspiciously, for someone in my profession,
I have a goatee beard and wear Birkenstock
sandals.
Now, at least, I know where it all comes from.
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346:
"In those days Eastern England was the 4 minute warning line for a nuclear attack from Russia, and we were rather nervous."
Still is . . .unless the missiles have got faster since then. And with a few more happy ideas from certain quarters about where to park missiles, we could end up feeling rather nervous again.
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If there is no choice but to add another huge chunk of debt to our already exploding national debt it should be in the form of an economic recovery plan designed to create jobs, make troubled mortgages affordable to minimize foreclosures or bankruptcies, which would alleviate the problems our financial institutions are experiencing, and ensure affordable credit is available. We can not focus on the latter, and ignore the need to create jobs and stop the ongoing foreclosures.
Our infrastructure - which in addition to roads, bridges, and tunnels also includes an antiquated rail system and power grid, inadequate public transport - needs immediate attention and substantial investment.
As opposed to a handout to banks to ensure credit is available, which I admit is a fundamental need to keep our economy afloat, we must focus on job creation. home ownership, and debt reduction. The latter is unlikely to happen any time soon.
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Mirrorformagistrates: "Don't trust any country that doesn't like baseball."
UK here. What's baseball? Don't you mean cricket?
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329, 347, DT and british-ish, we have apparently
progressed beyond the brain-washing stage over
here.
Pretty soon, the media will stop trying to explain
what is happening, and just put a picture of
Dick Cheney on with patriotic music being played.
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#349, Gary, this is starting to make some sense.
I think that the modern American equivalent of
"beatnik" would be "slacker," a term that came
out of Austin.
The beatniks were into seducing young women
with poetry, and were probably early adopters
of hallucinogenics, but, from my experience,
the only thing that slackers share is an aversion
to work.
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Ref #308
I teach US Politics in a UK Sixth form and this election has been fascinating for me and my students.
Looking at the latest polls it does seem that Obama is pulling out an insurmountable lead.
Is there anyway he could lose from here?
Well first I would suggest to your students to look at the battleground state polls primarily. The states of Mass and Texas do not need to be tracked as we know which direction they will go.
Second take into account that in the last 2 Presidential elections the polls were wrong
Third there could be a surprise in the next two weeks.
4th Unfournatly (and this is not the reason I am voting against him) they are people who will vote for and against because of race
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352:
"At least we Brits can claim the peace sign as ours!"
And it's such a conveniently convertible gesture, too.
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gunsandreligion:
"The beatniks were into seducing young women with poetry, and were probably early adopters of hallucinogenics."
Can you still join?
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# 287
The idea that American values reflect the influence of capitalism on the World, rather than being particularly American, when applied to a people relatively rootless as compared to the value system of the Old World, may be partially true.
There are different civilizations in the World: Protestant Western; Catholic Western; Eastern Orthodox; Islamic; Sinic and perhaps others.
Max Webber argued that Protestantism was essential to the development of capitalism in the West, the Roman Catholic system having quite different values.
America’s North was started by theocratic Puritans who shared the Calvinist idea that prosperity on Earth evidenced one’s rightness with God.
The American Revolution, especially the Sons of Liberty, was a commercial revolt of tradesmen for essentially economic reasons.
The repeated imperialism of the USA was always economically based, although frequently dressed with moral pretexts.
Again, the myths, the ideology of the public discourse, the psyche or national character and the reality are all a bit different.
(Slavery was only an economic factor in the southern half of the United States and it does not seem to me to have much bearing on the overall public discourse, but I could be wrong).
Probably tomorrow will be taken up with a rehash of this evening’s entertainment, but we can do more with American ideology if some are interested.
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gunsandreligion:
"Pretty soon, the media will stop trying to explain what is happening, and just put a picture of Dick Cheney on with patriotic music being played."
Oh, you mean the one of him shooting his mate in the back or wherever it was? I'd like to see that one.
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test
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308, Davy.
I mentioned before that Obama looked unstoppable. Then british-ish and I came up with another thought (#347, #353).
Were Iran or Pakistan made to look as if they attacked us, taking us into another conflict, then the Republicans could gain from this. But we could not attack directly, or the Democrats would gain.
Politics and politicians are disgusting.
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242. wanderingangus:
"# 23l Andrea
Your over-excited post may go down in history and may be deconstructed by students for ever more.
As I wrote before, when you are in a deep hole - stop digging !
"
*****************
I believe it is you who have gotten overly excited. I provided the links. Don't shoot the messenger.
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362
You've missed the boat. Anyway, the VP debate, at 3.00 am my time is a bridge (Alaskan) too far, so I'll rely on the highlights.
Goodnight and good luck.
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I hope to get back into the discussion again as I enjoy educating and being educated by others internationally, but the time lag really makes it difficult.
re: 118. David_Cunard,
If you're still participating, I'm not certain what you were insinuating in your comment. Please explain.
356. D. Villa,
I agree with you that this plan falls short in providing the protections required to actually SOLVE the problem. This is strictly a bandage to stop the bleeding.
I almost blew a gasket listening to the hearings when Sen Martinez (R, FL) made his case that this was a bad bill but something had to be done. He actually said that 100% of the calls from his constituents were against this legislation, mostly because of the lack of protections in place to prevent this from happening again. His attempt at reassurance was that they (Congress) would work diligently to add provisions and protections when they got back NEXT YEAR! This bill is already beginning to get laden with pork to add a few more votes. How can they expect ANY citizen to have a shred of confidence in their abilities when many congressional politicians knew this was looming? Add to that the partisianship that has already permeated this issue and people should respect the average American's concerns about getting this right the FIRST TIME.
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361, british-ish.
"At least we Brits can claim the peace sign as ours! And it's such a conveniently convertible gesture, too."
Americans may not understand what you mean by convertible. Here the V, reversed or not, is just a V.
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Has anybody suggested to our great Congress that the best idea would be to give each of the American tax payers 1 million dollars to pay off all their debts, loans, mortgages, etc.. and in the process save about 500 billion dollars while spending just about 250 billion. Include the oversight needed in Wall Street to put the necessary constraints that the elite need to prevent them from doing the same thing all over again with different names. At the same time we will cut into their future earnings by having all these bad loans paid off in just a few months from the date the package for the tax payers is approved instead for the rest of their lives. Any better ideas or is common sense missing in this once great country?
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I've just read Matt Frei's piece:
"Only the administration can provide the legal framework for safe financial sex by using its rescue package to sweat out the bad loans and failing banks."
I get it, now. Finally I understand why so many Republicans are against that plan. They think safe sex is abstinence, don't they?
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british-ish (#357), this website actually covers baseball, in a limited way, listed under "other sport."
Baseball is played in a few places, notably Japan and Mexico, where it was imported by citizens of those countries for its intrinsic merit.
I know that cricket is played around the world, but I suspect mostly in places where it was exported by British colonialists. Perhaps you know. Is there anyplace on earth where the local populace took up cricket which was not once part of the British Empire?
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re: 360 Magic,
I do not see Obama losing this election at this point. Though his polling numbers were slightly ahead prior to the Repub Convention, I felt they were inaccurate. I would point to the 2004 election for an example. Kerry commanded a 3-5% lead in most polls going into the election and was defeated by over 3%.
The financial crisis and the Dems ability to label McCain as a Bush mirror were the start of the decline. Palin's horrible performances as of late were the death blow, in my opinion.
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308:
"Were Iran or Pakistan made to look as if they attacked us, taking us into another conflict, then the Republicans could gain from this. But we could not attack directly, or the Democrats would gain."
Whatever colour of British government joined in I'm pretty sure it would be out of power for a generation.
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re: 366 Marbles,
Interesting hypothesis. How would the Republicans be able to pull that one off?
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Oh no. I've just looked at the Radio 5 Live schedule. 2am to 4am? It doesn't go on that long, does it? That's almost longer than some country's entire election campaign.
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Ref 353
"Any war with Iran or Pakistan would have to be made to look like an attack on their part. We we to attack then McCain should not bother even casting his own vote."
In my opinion, the only thing that could derail Obama's chances at this late stage of the campaign would be a major revelation involving "family values". Can you imagine how the public would react if someone produced some evidence, or simply accused him, of having an extra-marital affair...with a white woman!
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308:
Both have actually already happened. The US has attacked inside Pakistan; and Pakistan has attacked US helicopters attempting it. Only attention seems to have been diverted to this banking stuff. For the moment.
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Good evening
Unlike most of the postings I am doing this under my real name, so am accountable. What a pity that people make serious posting using silly names (eg "duhbuh" - is this supposed to equate to 'double U', a nickname of the current discredited President of the USA?)
I thought that the posting by Xie_Ming was very thoughtful.
At the risk of sinking a bit lower, but being a bit more forthright, I have just been listening to the Rolling Stones 'Bigger Bang' album and was impressed yet again with what Sir Mick Jagger had to say in his song entitled 'sweetneocon'
For those bloggers unfamiliar with the words, I will quote the most impressive phrase:
'I think you are a crock of shit.'
He was referring, I think mainly, to current vice-president Dick Cheyney but the same description applies just as well to one of the current (sweetneocon) pretenders.
(Note to the moderator: Before you censor this you should take into consideration the fact that I am just quoting a peer of the realm)
Ian McFarlane
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#364
To be fair to Dick, he shot him in the front.
To be fair to gun owners, only a complete idiot could shoot domeone like that. It is the shooters responsibility to be safe. I am befuddled to this day that Checney didn't own up to dangerous shooting and apologize to the man.
Safety Sam
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375, british-ish.
...and I might ask Canada to take me in.
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re: 372 JA Hernandez,
I think you may want to recheck your figures on that one.
With approximately 135000000 taxpayers in the US, that would cost roughly 135000000000000 dollars. Heck, is that quintuplemillion or something?
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378, Dominick.
It wouldn't even have to be true.
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379, british-ish.
I know. But those were not a bull-scale anything. Maybe they will enlarge it, or just scare people.
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#371
Here's an idea, check your math. 300 million people, take out minors and make it an easy 250 mill. 250 Billion would give us about $1,000 each. 250 trillion would give us a million each.
Mathematical Sam
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Fred Thompson is just an old windbag. He was at the RNC giving his speech to run in 2012. So look out John McCain another ole galoot is a' lookin' ta take yo' place as President.
I like the way Thompson talks tough like a second rate John Wayne at a third rate venue. He was going to run and bust the hole thang open, but lost.
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re:380 Ian McFarlane,
Though I can appreciate your forthrightness, I don't see how Ian McFarlane narrows down our knowledge of who you are. You could just as easily say Margaret Thatcher and it would really mean the same thing.
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"Americans may not understand what you mean by convertible. Here the V, reversed or not, is just a V."
Ah. I'll explain. Palm facing outwards, two fingers extended, it meant, originally "V for Victory". Not sure when it became the peace sign, or when the Japanese adopted it as such.
The opposite way round, palm towards you, hand moved up and down, means, um, well, got to be careful here, even though you see the word in print pretty often over here, the two words I gather are placed before "door" when it's steel and bulletproof?
Or biblically commonly translated as "go forth and multiply".
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It's one of the great conundrums in the world that Bill Clinton is regarded by so many in the US as not trustworthy. He arguably presided over one of the most successful administrations the US has known. When he left office he left a strong economy, a huge surplus and the respect of most of the world. Yet his sexual peccadillo, to the bewilderment of the rest of the world, is all many seem to recall. Yet today the clone of arguably the most incompetent president the US has known is being seriously considered by many as the next US president. Clinton has a reputation as a great communicator and many try to analyze why he is so good. Try this as a reason - he cares. He is able to convey that genuine care to his audience - that is why he resonates with so many.
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380, ian.
There are reasons for anonymity. You get the occasional crank or zealot on the blog and you don't want them to be able to harass you in person. In writing, it's OK. Others may not want their views known. That might be true of a woman who supports abortion, but lives in a very fundamentalist community. Some people who contribute to the blog may be known to the public.
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Gary_A_Hill:
"I know that cricket is played around the world, but I suspect mostly in places where it was exported by British colonialists. Perhaps you know. Is there anyplace on earth where the local populace took up cricket which was not once part of the British Empire?"
You make it sound as though it was forced on people at gunpoint . . .It would hardly be India and Pakistan's national game if it had been. . .and yes, it's apparently beginning to be played in China. so they can beat us as well if cricket does get into the Olympics in 2016. (And Afghanistan, though it was imported there recently from Pakistan.) Holland has a team, too, I believe.
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"372. At 10:59pm on 02 Oct 2008, british-ish wrote:
I've just read Matt Frei's piece:
"Only the administration can provide the legal framework for safe financial sex."
Well this is a new dimension to the plan.
Trust the yanks to be creative -what's the idea, it takes people's minds off the money problem?
Is it necessary to be an American to qualify for the relief? Who are er the suppliers as it were? Does one get a choice?
Just for my own researches of course.
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376, ND.
There are dozens of ways it could be done. The easiest would be to attack, keep quiet about it, and only report the resulting counterattack. Another would be some ploy on our part that suggests we are preparing a large-scale attack. That might get the other country to strike first.
Do you thinkI should work for the spooks?
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The good ole boys and their red-neck pals must be fuming over Bill Clinton's speech, if only they could understand the nuances of the english language.
Hot diggity dog, I'll have another brewski!
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381. SamTyler1969 wrote:
#364
"To be fair to Dick, he shot him in the front."
I don't know anything about guns, or shooting people (except I was chased off his land once by a farmer with a shotgun when I was at school).
But shooting someone facing them seems worse, somehow. Seems more like an accident if they get it in the foot or the back . . .But then, as I say, like most Brits, I don't know much about it.
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newbriton,
I can't share your opinion on Clinton's image. I think that were it not for Hillary's presidential aspirations, Bill would have made a strong push for the UN Secretary General position. He WAS one of the most successful presidents the US has ever had. I believe he is hated by only the Right wing of the Republican party because he actually proved them WRONG in so many cases.
His recent image problems were caused, in no uncertain terms, by a media that was intent on bringing forth a new blood candidate. It is so ironic and shameful that the same people that fought so strongly for Bill as President are using the same Right wing tactics to break him down.
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Gary_A_Hill:
I thought baseball was introduced into Japan by the American occupying army?
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Predicting Obama ahead and leading in electoral college votes is a sure fire Republican strategy to keep dems at home on voting day. This is a close race and Palin will have to rip off all her clothes and foam at the mouth tonight if she is to lose this debate. She'll either fall flat on her face or become the nation's darling - the US electorate is that fickle, and uninformed about the issues. Frightening but true. How else can you explain the current administration being voted in twice!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#390, newbriton, if Bill C. could run again, he
could just walk into office. In general, he is
positively regarded in the US, in a way that no
Democrat since Kennedy has been.
But, of course, that doesn't mean that he could
fix the problems that we have now.
#378, DV, it would have to be a "typical white woman."
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Dont' know why or where this thread got started but for those interested and have not taken the trouble to google it the following non-commonwealth countries play cricket:
Indonesia
Italy
Thailand
Netherlands
Japan
Argentina
Denmark
Chile
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# 390
Newbrit
Trouble is Bill told a big porky. "I did not have sex with that ......."
Mind you, I suppose we could all have a debate on exactly what sex means whilst we're waiting for the debate to start.
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Right now Obama is clearly ahead in the polls. Heaven help America and the world if he wins.
==============================
Well it would make a change if heaven did help MAII; as for the last eight years the 'assistance' seems to have been coming from the other place...
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#380. iandmcfarlane - Good to see someone else using their own name, but Sir Mick Jagger is not a "peer of the realm", just a simple knight.
#369. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "I'm not certain what you were insinuating in your comment."
Your post at #102 reflected the knee-jerk (immoderate) attitudes of the extreme edges of the opposing parties and showed no independence of thought. There's much more than the four examples you cite; immigration, taxation, the withdrawal from Iraq, gun control and so forth - you might care to read both the Republican and DemocraticParty platforms before making such a narrow judgement.
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373. Gary_A_Hill; 392. british-ish: Regarding cricket - this should answer all your questions!
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Talking of sex, where have the mods gone again ?
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394. At 00:05am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles
Yes I do, .. think you should work for the secret service
"The easiest would be to attack, keep quiet about it, and only report the resulting counterattack."
This little senario sounds like a couple drums of poison gas left in a kurdish village, later called weapons of mass destruction, and blamed on someone.... oh what was his name?
Sorry to say the conspiracy theory maybe valid and that thought is more worrisome than funny.
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This blog seems to be lacking somewhat for political humour with a quantum mechanics flavour. So in an effort to help achieve that all-important balance, here's a merry jest which Sarah Palin would surely enjoy. If it's not too late, she might even drop it into the debate to confuse Joe Six-Pack!
Q: Why does a moose when it spins?
A: Alaska the fewer!
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re: 399 newb,
Strangely enough, some of my co-workers were debating that very point. Most voted in favor of ripping her clothes off. I actually think some of them believe she could turn the election back to McCain by doing just that.
Fickle....no.....Simpleminded....absolutely.
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399, new.
Obama's voters will come out on election day because he has small offices all across the nation to make sure they do. Untold thousands are out there working for him. He is not naive.
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re:395 brianm,
I doubt most of those 'good ole boys' really care much about what Bill has to say.
Try not to be so self-righteous. There are far too many examples of ignorant zealots on the left. And just as many across the pond.
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re:399 newbriton
Easy explanation. John Kerry was about the MOST uninspiring candidate that the Dems could have brought forth. As I said before, due to the primary system in the US, the most far left and right candidate is usually chosen to represent the party. At a time when a majority of America was unhappy with the Iraq war, they didn't believe that total withdrawal was the answer and that was what Kerry ran on to get the nomination.
I would like to know that though the Presidency did remain Bush's, the Congress transferred power to the Democrats. So the American public was searching for change.
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Isn't it fun. second-guessing the moderators? They do seem sometimes to be a little unnecessarily prudish. Let me see. . .
Simon21 (393) wrote:
"Is it necessary to be an American to qualify for the relief?"
My reply: "I think you have to be a banker."
Only to get the joke you have to realise in Britain we tend to refer to members of the profession by substituting the 23rd letter of the alphabet for the second.
(And I didn't even spell it out . . .and you can read the word in almost any newspaper here.)
I wonder if this will get through?
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Redwhiteandermblue,
Where in the world have you seen this pattern?It isn't obvious at Real Clear Politics or wither at fivethirtyeight.
If you look at the RCP and scroll down, try and remember calculus and the importance of the "area under the curve".
;-)
ed
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wanderingangus at 403:
I've been trying to get a little joke past the moderators on that subject for the last 20 minutes.
Somebody asked where the moderators had gone. Well, the pubs closed hours ago. I think they might change to, er, another country? Judging by my little problem . . .
And speaking of jokes,
Q: Why does a moose when it spins?
A: Alaska the fewer!
Somebody's going to have to explain that one to me. Sorry.
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NDPNDNTHNKR:
"As I said before, due to the primary system in the US, the most far left and right candidate is usually chosen to represent the party."
This side of the Atlantic, we just can't see it quite like that. We see them as 'far right' and 'pretty far right.' We honestly simply can't see them as on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Obama is a bit to the right of our Cameron (Conservative Party).
I can't imagine how Americans would describe the French Communist Party in that spectrum.
It's why we sometimes get the feeling that anything to the left of our centre ends up being equated with 'terrorist' these days.
Oh, that debate's started, Bye.
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David,
I was speaking exactly to those extreme edges with that comment. It is those extremes that too often chose the party nominees. The moderates are left to pick which fringe candidate they dislike least.
Thanks for the links but I am well aware what each party's platform is. My point was that the citizens that have an unwavering loyalty to their party are most often attracted to that party by those 4 simple issues. The Religious Right which make up the known core of the Republican right, care most about protecting fetuses and fighting against addition of homosexual rights. The 'Far Left' is splintered into to main groups: The lower class, including immigrants and minorities, and the anti-war/environmentalists.
I am aware that these are generalizations, but they are accurate, in my opinion.
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The policy of reviewing prior to publishing posts seems a bit burdensome.
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The mistress of the non-answer!
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british,
Well, we don't include people of that 'terrorist' type of ideology in our analogies. I think that most Americans tend to place those people in a separate category of 'insane' or 'irrational'.
Strangely though, many would argue that the far left wing HAS a communist agenda. But they would never allow that word to purse their lips considering our recent history (40 yrs) with communist governments.
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I see it so far as Biden 4 ..... Palin 1
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Biden 4 Palin 2
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Well, she had all the slogans she'd prepared earlier. Joe Biden has just said he hadn't heard (after an hour) how, or if, the Republicans' policies were different to Bush.
All Palin has done so far is say "We have plans . . ." But she'll probably come back to us on what they are . . .
Biden has certainly demonstrated much greater breadth of knowledge; but Palin has kept pressing all the buttons that get Republicans excited.
It won't make much difference, I suppose, but I thought Biden so far has been very impressive.
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Palin is definitely making points regarding
Joe Biden having voted for the war - comparing
him with Hillary.
I didn't think that Paleo-woman would be so good
at this!
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I think she won on energy and the war. But I give Biden the win on all other points.
She came across as canned at first. She failed to accomplish what I thought should have been her main goal, distancing McCain from George Bush and his current administration's policies.
I always thought the McCain/Palin ticket should lead EVERY ad and debate with Biden and Hillary's own words during the primary. She did get a good dig in on him once along that line.
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David Cunard - thank you for pointing out my error (posting #380) and noting that Sir Mick is a mere knight of the realm. Lord Jagger is perhaps too much to hope for. My apologies if I have misled the moderator or anybody else
Although 'sweetneocon' was written some three years ago, it has much relevance to the contest. I urge all you Sarah Palin supporters (probably most of you having once been George Bush supporters) to listen to the words.
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british-ish (#398, no, baseball started in Japan in the 19th century:
http://www.niseibaseball.com/html%20articles/Baseball%20in%20Japan/BaseballJapan.html
I understand that baseball came to Oceania via American soldiers during WWII, however.
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David_Cunard (#406), yes it does, along with other sites which discuss the International Cricket Council. It illustrates my point, as there are only a handful of "full members" of the ICC, all with connections to the British Commonwealth. Among "Associate Members" (which includes the USA), there must be enough interest to field a team to participate in international events, which isn't many. Presumably, there must be enough for two teams, so they can get some practice at home. In the US, and apparently in many other "associate" and "affiliated" members, about half the players are Indian and Pakistani expatriots.
I don't mean to sound like I'm putting it down. It's a fine sport, but a club sport in most places, nevertheless.
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Justin:
it is true that bill is on fire and; that paid off in dividens!
Dennis Junior
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