Winning on tone, not policy
Do Obama and McCain dare to face down the effective president pro tem, Treasury Sec Henry Paulson? Over the weekend it seemed that Paulson was making progress and that congress would sign the Wall St rescue deal soon -- now Obama and McCain have both jumped on the oversight bandwagon and it's going to get rough again. But the fact is that the candidates are trying to make a mark having failed so far to convince any serious commentators that they have a real alternative vision to Paulson's. Tax cuts? Err - guys, the money has just been spent on Wall St as this piece makes clear.
The interesting thing is that round one of the meltdown slapdown has been won by Obama on tone, not policy - and that has to be a worry for Republicans. Calling for the sacking of the boss of the Securities Commission (as McCain did) seemed oddly unpresidential. So did the remark about the fundamentals being sound - did he not know that a new twist to the crisis was looming? America is addicted not to oil but to debt. It is as much a moral problem as an economic one. But foreigners thinking (hoping?) that it is all over this time for the US and its global leadership will likely as not be as disappointed as they always have been in the past as this Brit points out.
Meanwhile I post this simply, as they say in Northern Ireland, for badness!
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
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In addition to being addicted to debt, we also have an aversion to taking consequences. Heaven forbid we let our corporations take the consequences of granting loans to people who won't pay them back. We stubbornly stay in our homes in the path of the worst hurricanes on earth despite clear warnings to leave, and then we yell at the government because our feet got wet. We want to build houses on mountain slopes, but we complain if we get mudslides in the basement. We want to eat fat but then wonder why we all die of heart disease. etc. etc. We're not whiners, we just don't like consequences.
Let the companies die. That's what capitalism is for.
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I think you'd find almost near-universal agreement that the bailout should not happen without legislation that ensures the bastards can't do it again. Almost as many people would probably like to see a few heads roll into prison. Almost everyone sees the bailout as forcing taxpayers who have been scammed by financiers and made poorer by the GOP (the price of food in the U.S. has doubled during the Bush administration) to pay the scammers a second time.
Legislation outlining new regulatory authorities will not happen before the election. But it needs to be the first thing on the agenda of the new Congress in January.
As for that "badness" link... you'd have to ask a lot of people around here before you found one who knew what the Ryder Cup is all about. The Barnes piece smacks of just so much more ill-considered bitching that Americans don't behave like Europeans who, as we all know, set the standard for cultured and sophisticated behavior acrosos the planet. (Like the drunken Brits, who in post-football stupor, terrorized a train I took out of Paddington; or the lout, after another match, who vomited across the table next to me in a Reading restaurant. Yes, that's how true sportsman behave. Pity we Yanks don't behave with such aplomb. Maybe we should start booking cheap flights to Prague, drink cheap beer, and go to Germany to beat up the locals.
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"America is addicted not to oil but to debt. It is as much a moral problem as an economic one."
If original, then a profound comment!
The Ryder Cup commentary also has moral overtones.
Shall we start with Alexis de Tocqueville's
'Democracy in America' ?
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#3. justcorbly: "the price of food in the U.S. has doubled during the Bush administration" Whatever the merits of the poster's other opinions, this statement has no basis in fact, about which see [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] from the US Department of Agriculture. And it certainly has not increased substantially in the last eighteen months.
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Financial observation. Is anyone talking about this?
The bailout might be a bargain. If the Government had to make good on the FDIC insured deposits (assuming there were some massive bank failures) the cost could be much higher.
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Re the Simon Barnes diatribe about America's sporting culture, and aversion to teamwork, I say, 'Wooooo!' Those Kentucky boys took your boys out behind the barn for a real lesson in how team golf is played!
Now, about the plan to make the Secretary of the Treasury the defacto potentate of the US: M. Webb is absolutely correct, we have a profound moral problem here, an ethos of 'Me First And Everyone Else Can Just Go Hang'.
I've walked through the WalMart full of cheap Chinese goods for fifteen years, knowing that they would have to have been produced under near slave-labor conditions. I've ridden through neighborhoods of houses built more to 'flash cash' than to serve as comfortable shelters in which to raise families, wondering how they got built, and how could they have possibly been financed.
Do that many people in these parts make seven-figure incomes? Surely not!
I've felt for a long time that we have lost our way ethically. And I say these things as a staunch capitalistic conservative. Pat Buchanan is not right about everything, but on this point he is dead on: 'An economy is not a culture.'
Somewhere, we forgot the concept that we work so hard, and create healthy profits for our work, so that we can care for our families, and have surpluses to share with our communities, our churches, the Red Cross, the local symphony and choral society, etc.
For so long, the ethos was that of John Wesley: 'Make all you can, save all you can, give all you can', and it worked beautifully.
Reading of Lehman Bros raiding its London offices of all their cash just before declaring bankruptcy in the US, to the point the London office might not make payroll, makes my stomach churn in anger.
We are supposed to be better than this!
This is not why we are in business in this country!
Now, Paulson proposes that he be named Commissar, that 800 billion dollars be earmarked(all of it borrowed money!) to bail out the bad actors, who made billions in bad loans, with no accountability, and then palmed them off. We've already saved AIG, who wrote bogus insurance policies on these bogus debt instruments.
And the proposal bars anyone from legally challenging any of the Treasury decisions in court!!
This is blatantly unconstitutional, and grossly, grossly immoral.
It is the slippery slope, straight into dictatorship.
I hope every US citizen, of any political persuasion, will be on the phone Monday morning to their Senator's office, demanding this proposal be halted in its tracks.
Read the proposal for yourself, and decide if this is the future you desire for your children:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html
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Justin, you are quite right about debt addiction.
The worst thing that ever happened to us was
for our currency to become the world's only
reserve currency. This has allowed our politicians
to indulge in the worst vice of any democracy,
making promises without paying for them.
We are far better off for this bubble to have burst
now rather than 10 years or so from now,
when our problems may not have been so amenable
to a cure.
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Justin, I only have one question. And from the politicians out there, I do not expect a straight answer.
What does the President Elect (whoever it is) intend to do to help the average American (like me)?
I will be keeping score during the debates.
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#6 "[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]"
Why a PDF link should be removed as 'unsuitable' I cannot tell (it isn't broken) but this will lead to it in two formats and two sets of comparisons. Neither shows that food in general or specific examples of foodstuffs has risen as high as justcorbly at #3 suggests.
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Hi Justin,
I wonder why you think either candidate is "winning"? This is really not a horse race, or a race of "undecided voters". It is waiting to see what "We the People" really think, instead of the media. What event in a candidate's life can really change a voters value perspective? (Especially since VP's and overall platforms have been chosen). I understand that media outlets need to create the viewers interest, and of course elevate their own interests by the story produced. Having lived in Europe for several years, I appreciate your insight. I like to see what yourself and Matt Frei are saying to get a real outside perspective. You are compelled to report as you see fit, and I will agree or disagree with your assessment .
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2, regular.
"Let the companies die. That is what capitalism is for."
In principle I agree with you. The problem in this particular case is that without a bailout we probably face, not a recession, but a depression. So not just the companies will die. Taking it a step further, a failed economy in America would likely lead to failed econmies throughout the world. As it is, Europe's banking systems are not in great shape.
As for a general move towards business and personal responsibility, I am for that, but I don't think America is.
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I'm afraid I'm having difficulty getting my head around some of the measures being proposed, especially some of the extras
What responsibility does the government have in ensuring a buoyant housing market and preventing falling prices when lower prices mean more affordability? This whole concept of negative equity is a risk the mortgage lenders take not the home owner, and to try and sell it as the home owners problem is dishonest at best. The home owner, if they've budgeted correctly, is not affected by the drop in value only in the amount of extra credit they can take on with a diminished asset.
On the other hand the Fed also talked about making low cost loans available to assist people to buy houses in an effort, I assume, to keep the demand stable.
From what I've seen recently, Gordon Brown should be endorsing the Republicans, as they both seem to have similar ideas.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
All I want to know is why some of the biggest issues are not even brought up in these blogs - democracy has it an all time low over the last 8 years in regards to the popular vote in 2000 and the disgraceful intolerance showcased during the OHIO 2004 electronic voting fraud. This is not acceptable. Why is this not a topic question for this election?
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It seems like Obama is more thoughtful about the problem and McCain, once again, acting like a temperamental little boy. I prefer the first one, to be frank, because no one know really how this crisis will play out. Paulson and Bernancke and the third fellow (his name slips my mind, it's early still) who worked this out took a risky step, unpopular politically but perhaps necessary to avoid a complete collapse of the financial system (some would like to see the banks sink, the freemarketeers would like to see them try to swim without a ring).
One thing is sure: The GOP -- and McCain is the GOP, even if he tries to pretend otherwise -- was once again askleep at the helm. It's the same pattern as:
1) 9/11: GWB was given the info about an attack inside the USA in August 2001, and chose to play more golf.
2) Hurricane Katrina
Old South, you're right about the team work, at least you seem to have a sense of humor about it. And perhaps you read through the whole piece, I suspect some tongue in cheek here that has bypassed at least one poster...
I want to remark on something, however: Many who feel the financial system should sort itself out by itself fail to see the dangers in a collapse. Bernancke is an expert in the great Depression. And I think, as a scholar, he probably also studied the political and social ramifications. It's all fine and well sitting back with some sort of nest egg and watching the bloodbath. Remember that today's financial world is genuinely international, and a major debacle brings social and political consequences that could be immense. WW2 was in part triggered by some nasty economic times.
(I would like to remind those who think of Europe as one blur: It is not. It consists of sovereign nations, each with its own culture. One thing Europeans do share is a culture of criticism and healthy suspicion about the , which is perhaps very un-American.)
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I thought posters might be interested in this which I received electronically, so I can't post a link. It was headed "Reagan slams Wall Street Robbery". The earlier version was "moderated".
"The runaway government bailout of Wall Street at taxpayer expense is nothing less than "robbery,? according to Michael Reagan.
The top-rated talk-show host and **** columnist told the 5 million listeners of "The Michael Reagan Show" on Friday that their pockets and those of their fellow Americans were being picked clean by the panic-driven bailout.
"Democrats Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, Jamie Gorelick, Penny Pritzker, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank are robbing the American taxpayer, and Republicans in the House and Senate had been tapped to drive the getaway car," said Reagan.
"In a political system where well-paid Democrat operatives can enrich themselves at the expense of the American people with zero downside, there is no incentive to behave properly, when the taxpayer will bail you out. Enough is enough, bad decisions have consequences and those consequences ought to include indictments and jail time for those who cashed in."
Reagan added: "I hope John McCain will not shrink from pointing the finger of blame where it belongs ? at Barack Obama, who fed greedily at the trough of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac while their top people, including two of his own campaign associates, were flim-flamming the American people. It's a Democratic scandal from beginning to end, and the American people deserve to know it."
That's the Republican view, for what it's worth. Mr Reagan ignores the fact that his own President approves of it!
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It is interesting to reinterpret this theatrical
piece in light of today's events.
And, with that, a good night.
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14, David de Jong.
I remember there being talk, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, about how banks were discriminating against the poor by making it difficult for them to obtain mortgages. The banks were taking the heat as bad guys.
I can't say I was paying much attention at the time so I don't know if any pressure was brought to bear in terms of their mortgage policies.
We often see activists taking up the cause of the disadvantaged. Why aren't there low-cost supermarkets in the ghetto, etc.? Obviously, if it were profitable for the supermarket chain there would be stores there. But there are other situations in the ghetto that can make an interprise unprofitable. Often the company has to bow to the demand of the media, etc.
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18, David.
I personally champion debate within a party. We don't have enough of it.
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18
Not only did he support it, he claimed that it was instigated by his administration and supported by a bi-partisan majority. Reagan has his analysis back to front.
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Bailing out these organisations is cronyism at its finest. The Bush administration is a group of criminals that have turned the USA into a hen house guarded by foxes. They are like a cross between the Mafia and the Nazi party. They steal your money, and give it to the rich, then give the super rich massive tax cuts, funded by the poor and middle class. They start wars in other parts of the world and hide the results from you. They electronically manipulate your elections, they do not offer you any free health care yet spend billions of dollars on the so-called rebuilding of Iraq, and promise more wars with other nations. They spy on you whenever and however they please. And then have the nerve to tell other nations what they can and can't do. And there is nothing you can do about it : )
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20, allmymarbles
I'm living in South Africa and about a year ago a new Credit Act was introduced. The aim of the act is to ensure that financial institutions make credit a lot harder by adhering to far stricter lending conditions. The purpose of the Act was to protect an emerging black middle and working class who were new to credit, from over committing themselves. The results have been dramatic, with car sales down 30% and house prices falling after a decade of spectacular increases. To a great extent, the most affected by the drops has been the wealthier white home owners who tend to see housing as speculative and a status symbol.
It's strange that a so called "third world" country saw the problem and acted in advance where first world governments turned a blind eye.
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To Xie_Ming
I believe you may be confused about what 'Iraq' is and has been.
You seem to be conflating British battles in WW1 with the Turks with the British mandate in Iraq from 1920 - 1932.
In battles with Turkey in the Ottoman provinces of Basra, Baghdad and Mosul which later became Iraq, Britain had most of the Indian army. That's about 600,000 men. This war was not confined to the Iraqi provinces, it was part of the broader war against the Turks who were Germany's ally.
They were not fighting Iraqis except where they were levies on the Turkish side. The Turks were being led by a German general who gained some success for them, notably at the siege of Kut.
After WW1, the number of British soldiers in these provinces reduced to about 90,000 for a period and then declined as Iraq moved toward independence - which was the point of the League of Nations manddate.
Britain 'invaded' Iraq in WW2 but that was a much smaller affair involving only about 2 infantry divisions on the British side and 4 on the Iraqi side. There was much more air involvement from the RAF and the Luftwaffe.
The British took Baghdad and the Iraqi government fled.
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The whole free-market, trickle down thing did really get jumpstarted by Reagan and his people, who began the "drowning government in a bathtub" philosophy, which in itself dates to the late 19th century or thereabouts. They also opposed any kind of oversight environmental or otherwise. The EPA was put in charge of a near madman, James Watt. One of Reagan's first actions was breaking the air traffic controllers' strike. Later, his economic policies brought about a phenomenal rise in interest rates and huge unemployment. This stuff is easily forgotten, it was really rough in the USA for a while, and when the dust settled, the country was no longer nearly as friendly as it had been.
The GOP aim was and remains to roll back just about everything that has been done to make the USA more socially fair since FDR. That is also the idea behind the privitization of social security (yes, putting the fox in charge of the henhouse).
Whatever... the point remains: oversight. This crisis has been brewing for a long time, but the GOP tends to have very lazy presidents, not only work-wise, but intellectually...
That makes the current crisis rather ironic.
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It is beginning to look as though winning the US presidential election, like the British election to come in a year or two, will be something of a poisoned chalice.
I like the idea - who, as a voter wouldn't - of the candidates being honest about having to reduce the deficit as one of the articles linked from Justin Webb's piece suggests.
It's not going to happen. It will, however, be interesting to see the dance they do around these issues and the obvious changes of policy that are necessary.
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Tone not substance. At least Dems have a tone that resonates with most Americans.
Interesting, Lying and stonewalling a legal inquiry, anyone reminded of a perevios republican liar who resigned to avoid impeachment. Many were dissappointed they had voted for nixon. Be careful not to make the same mistake with a campaign lyiing and stonewalling even before they are in office. mcsame campaign called his opponent elitist??? Who owns 13 cars and 8 homes??
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Justin Webb airily declares that Obama is winning on "tone".
That is his personal opinion - nothing more, noting less. Nil analysis to support it - just a throway line - which I think should be thrown away.
Some may think McCain is winning on some matters of substance, by directly linking Obama to failure to deal with the looming problem of sub-prime trouble focussed on and largely caused by Fannie Mae and FreddieMac. And taking very substantial financial contributions from the mortgage bodoes - plus employing their top people on his campaign at very senior level.
People here keep saying that Bush needed to act. It was for Congress to legislate for tighter regulation- not the President - and McCain's attempt to impose tighter regulation specifically on F Mae and F Mac was blocked by people like Obama.
Once again - a superficial throwaway line of judgment by Mr Webb, nil analysis. Taking the lead from the same old media ?
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I see that SNL ran a skit on incest relating to one family in the campaign.
Charming.
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Amazing
The regulators have seen fit to remove a link I provided to the Weekly Standard. Not any comment I made - the link itself.
That is a source admittedly on the right - but it is mainstream
That looks like pure political censorship to me - nothing whatsoever to do with "House Rules".
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Justin,
It isn't "Either -Or". It's "Both AND";-)
ed
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A president out of touch with everyday average Americans, that's what is needed; doesn't know how many houses he owns(8) and doesn't know who the Spanish premier is, Anyone reminded of bush. Look where America is now after 8 years of gop in power. Dem Clinton left the US in good shape but 8 years later what a mess. Financial greed allowed to cause global turmoil. Lying about WMD in Iraq to gain support for bush agenda. Spying on American citizens. Now mcant lying, lying because gop don't have any programmes of their own, just repeating dem catch phrases,does this resonate with the American electorate? Even if you are not a Dem supporter change should be better than more of gop ineptitude.
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Ms Marbles,
The twilight of the Gods?;-)ed
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To JohnAAA--Many posters who support mcsame use his tactics distort truth about Obama instead of dealing with the issues on the table. Why?
Now you've taken to disparaging Webb comments because he states something that favours Obama. It must be difficult to find positive things to say about mcsame, no real policies of his own; choosing an inexperienced, unqualified, parrot with a whiny annoying voice to be his running mate; says Obama is an elitist yet he owns 13 cars(not All American as he said earlier) and doesn't know how many houses he owns(8) yet stupid enough to admit it. Vote for me I spent over 5 years in a Vietnamese prison-how come you couldn't escape war hero?
You must a typical republican who can ignore the truth about his party's candidate-
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Not to be facetious, but what do you mean by 'oversight' in this context - it has two very different meanings either side of the pond !
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There is a phrase that some who have been exposed to theology might recognize:
"INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE"
Such posters are to be ignored!
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#34 Ed_Iglehart
What is a 'better economy' ?
Winston Churchill's saying about democracy - it's the worst system except for all the others that have been tried - seems also to apply to capitalism.
Perhaps it's humanity that should be better. Perhaps that will come as we gain control of human evolution through genetic engineering, etc.
Or perhaps that will make more powerful versions of an already deeply flawed human race.
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#29
John,
Here we go again with the Fannie / Freddie consipiracy.
So McCain is winning on substance by linking Obama to Fannie and Freddie (he hasn't), who has employed a senior retiree to help with his Veep selection (while McCain has their current lobbyists on payroll), for failing to act (he didn't, but McCain did) and blocking McCain legislation (it was Sen Oxley's) in preventing their collapse which caused the current crisis (it didn't, any more than Lehman or others going under did. Republican economic policy however, a policy mcCain fervently supports, did).
As for Obama blocking legislation, we've already covered the fact that you mistakenly think the Dems held congress in 2005. Ooops.
So you think McCain is ahead on that basis? That's cute! I think Justin has a better arguement.
Once again a superficial throw away line of judgement based on right wing blogs and opinions and not a single fact to be found.
And as said before, if there were a scandal here the news media would be all over it. They are not, because there isn't.
Try some facts John, facts are so important.
#30
No one said comedy has to be tasteful. Just funny.
#31
'This is a source admittedly on the right - but is mainstream'
There's an oxymoron for you.
Bored Sam
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The banking crisis may have helped Sen. Obama gain a few gallup points but the real test for the Dem party will come very soon i.e. when the Polson massive bail-out scheme comes to Congress for approval. How will the Dem majority and Sen. Obama vote on this important piece of legislation that uses up tax-power money to keep private firms going?
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i would vote for whomever says he will keep hank paulson on (currently seems to be obama). this crisis is now the only issue worth deciding your vote on.
paulson may be just another greedy capitalist, but in my opinion he is just about the only person that truly understands the current crisis, up till now i think he shown exceptional judgment, and he certainly knows who his paymaster is now.
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It is absolutely necessary that there is oversight, and that there are built in controls. The proposal, if it is allowed to survive, should be heavily modified. It is simply too much of a carte blanche for Paulson to do what he wants, nor is there a sufficient corrective to prevent this happening again. If this bill is passed as stands, the US will endure a period of economic subsidence similar to Japan in the 1990s. In particular:
1. Clause 8 giving Paulson unrestricted freedom of action and placing him beyond oversight and legal review must be struck down. It is, I suspect, unconstitutional: all people must be required to act within the law or face due penalty.
2. The kinds of financial instruments the government can buy must be specified otherwise all sorts of other liabilities could be dumped as well.
3. The government must only buy 'toxic debts' held as of 15 September or before. There must be no leeway for banks to buy toxic debts and then bundle them on for the government to buy. That would line the pockets of the banks at the expense of the taxpayer.
4. The sum of 700 billion should be divided into two tranches: 250 billion now, and 450 billion by 31 January subject to the approval of the new congress and an interim report by the Treasury and Audit Office. This may make the resolution of these problems slower, but it will also make matters safer.
5. There must be a proper oversight committee with independent representatives.
In return for being bailed out, the banks must agree to certain consequences as a condition for assistance.
6. All executive stock options must be cancelled and the further issuance of them as part of executive remuneration should be forbidden for the next five years.
7. The government should be issued with stock options equivalent to the size of the debts bought that can then be either sold on or exercised if need be.
8. There must be at least one government appointed director on the board for the next ten years.
Finally, two other immediate consequences:
9. It should be made illegal for any publicly listed company to pay bonuses or issue stock options if they (a) make a loss; (b) become insolvent; or (c) make more than 5% of the staff redundant in a corporate restructuring. This should be made to cover Lehman Brothers.
10. The expiry date for the Bush tax cuts should be brought forward from 2010 to 1 October, at least for the top rate of tax; and the tax breaks for the oil companies abolished. This has to be paid for and not just by debt. If Bush is put in the position of having to choose between saving the banks, or saving his tax cuts for the rich and the oil companies, so be it.
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The Americans just won the Ryder cup. How ironic. That's brilliant.
Nevermind Europe.....it's the taking part that counts......
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#37 Xie_Ming
I apologise for my 'invincible ignorance' and for not putting this link to a writeup on the Mesopotamian Campaign in Wikipedia.
There, they estimate British troop levels in Mesopotamia in WW1 at 112,000 for this campaign in this area of the Middle East theatre against the Turks.
The three links I have given show British troop levels during WW1 when there was no Iraq; from 1920 onward when the entity which was to be called Iraq began to coalesce out of the Ottoman empire and in 1941 when that area was called Iraq..
Which of these is wrong ?
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Mark,
He's been in post a little over two years, and so far, his interventions have had little lasting effect. Ew shall see what we shall see...Seconded in full!
Peace and prosperity
ed
Ben (41),
[wry smile]
ed
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It seems that US politicians and voters don't like the basic premise of government budgeting. Americans don't like tax (don't we all), but they love spending (again don't we all).
I don't know what spending they are going to have to rein in. Yes they can make the poor suffer even more, but that ain't going to save them much. I read that the US government's total deficit will possibly amount to USD11.3 trillion, that's around 80% of the US economy! This bailout of USD700 billion alone is 35% more than the military budget!
Something has got to give. May it be higher taxes, lower value of the dollar. Justin's link to the Washington Post story shows that the American spirit will overcome this. For the world's sake let's hope so.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"#29
John,
Here we go again with the Fannie / Freddie consipiracy.
So McCain is winning on substance by linking Obama to Fannie and Freddie (he hasn't), who has employed a senior retiree to help with his Veep selection (while McCain has their current lobbyists on payroll), for failing to act (he didn't, but McCain did) and blocking McCain legislation (it was Sen Oxley's) in preventing their collapse which caused the current crisis (it didn't, any more than Lehman or others going under did. Republican economic policy however, a policy mcCain fervently supports, did).
As for Obama blocking legislation, we've already covered the fact that you mistakenly think the Dems held congress in 2005. Ooops.
So you think McCain is ahead on that basis? That's cute! I think Justin has a better arguement.
Once again a superficial throw away line of judgement based on right wing blogs and opinions and not a single fact to be found. "
You must bear in mind that this blogger gets all his so-called "facts" from far-right sources.
In addition to general ignorance he was apparently unaware of what the US senate did and that the VP was president of he Senate.
Apparently Palin was to be McCain's saviour, despite the obvious fact that she could hardly be.
He hates Obama not because of his politicies, but for other reasons.
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Post 18 David Cunard
"Reagan slams Wall Street Robbery".
For a minute there I thought you had the sprit of St Ronnie moving a glass around your ouija board.....
Q - what would Ronnie say now ..?
You're all doing very well !!
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I forgot to add that Mark's suggestions on post 42 would be a good start. But I don't think the government will go along with it!
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Chill0,
A local economy.Time for e re-reading of "Small is Beautiful", I reckonpeace to all
ed
P.S. Sam, Remember to check out EPRIDA ;-)
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#51 Ed_Iglehart
I read the linked stuff, thank you.
How do you prevent a 'local economy' from becoming 'global' ?
If I just need to read more, please tell me.
Assume I heartily accept my ignorance of many things.
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Is it not the case that both candidates have to completely rewrite their manifestos in the changed circumstances? This is something of a race against time since one or other candidate is going to have to persuade the electorate that he is up to coping with an ongoing economic crisis.
Given that McCain has admitted that he is no economist, the selection of Palin, which seemed inspired not so long ago, now looks very questionable. There simply is no relevant expertise on the ticket. If the Obama camp can stop mouthing platitudes about the need for change and come up with something which resembles a real policy, they really ought to have this won.
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Thus far, the only ones that have shown courage and leadership in their focus to solve one of the most serious fiscal and economic crises in our history are the Bush Administration, the Chairman of the Fed, and our Congressional leadership.
The reluctance of the candidates to take a position on this issue is a reflection of the lack of fiscal discipline of the electorate. I doubt they will announce anything meaningful, much less a blueprint on how they would address this and similar problems, which remain looming on the horizon, until Congress bites the bullet and shares responsibility with the Administration for the mess we helped create.
After that, one of the candidates will take a timid step and show what will pass for a high level "blueprint" on to restore fiscal and economic discipline, and the other will jump in immediately criticizing anything that resembles taxing the middle class (lethal for an electorate that prefers flag lapel pins to making sacrifices for their country), with the appropiate dose of deception and distortion to demonize the opponent. Politics as usual.
When are we going to insist on a third party and get rid of the political bickering and ineptness that passes for leadership in our country? We are being asked to choose between two underlings at a time when we need a leader and statesman.
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Chill0,
Love thy neighbour! Reading more may (or may not) help. Supporting local traders, living simply, growing your own food (and sharing surplus), planting trees and walking more than driving, etc., etc.Peace and neighbourlinessed
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Let's hope we can run the clock out on Bush and the failed policies that caused the meltdown before the "mother of all bailouts" pays CEOs millions in golden parachutes as a reward for greed and mismanagement at taxpayer expense. At least some like Richard Shelby and Nancy Pelosi are questioning the details despite pressure to hurry up and spend 700 billion if not over a trillion of taxpayer dollars on a blank check for nothing more than an uncertain outcome given the root causes still remain.
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Sam
Yes Congress was Repub controlled in 2005. Warnings have contimued through since 2006 - and it was becoming ever more clear that the problem of derivatives based on sub-prime (junk) mortgages was approaching criticl.
Yes McCain was only one of the sponsors of the Bill to regulate F Mae and F Mac more tightly. But he stated at the time that action was required in view of the damgers of systemic failure - essentially of meltdown.
And yes - Obama and the Dems blocked it.
And he has used M Mae people in very high positions in his campaign - indeed he was forced to chuck one of them under the bus just a few weels ago. Can you deny that ?
That is what the McCain ads said. They were both true.
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#55 Ed_Iglehart
Although I can see a movement toward localism happening in the future, it seems to me to have some limiting factors.
For instance, what about healthcare ? I guess that remains large scale, if only because drug development remains large scale. That also applies to space exploration and the Large Hadron Collider and many other expensive ventures.
There are also problems of specialisation. I am vegan. I doubt I could be vegan in a local economy that was less than national in size.
How do you address those things ?
Above all of that, the idea presupposes a human being of a kind that I do not recognise.
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48 Simon21
You continue to accuse me of racism. But you dare not say it openly any more - just keep hinting at it with snide remarks..
You are stuck in a rut - and false.
Your arguments are a load of tosh - but I will not comment on them as all your arguments revolve around the racist tag. Yopu are unfit to debate with good manners..
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54. At 12:35pm on 22 Sep 2008, DominickVila wrote:
Thus far, the only ones that have shown courage and leadership in their focus to solve one of the most serious fiscal and economic crises in our history are the Bush Administration, the Chairman of the Fed, and our Congressional leadership.
The reluctance of the candidates to take a position on this issue is a reflection of the lack of fiscal discipline of the electorate. I doubt they will announce anything meaningful, much less a blueprint on how they would address this and similar problems, which remain looming on the horizon, until Congress bites the bullet and shares responsibility with the Administration for the mess we helped create. "
Of course not. This is a political contest, no candidate is going to offer definitive solutions for the opther side to shoot down.
But what is important is that they at least show they understand the problem and its seriousness.
McCain has slipped up badly here, partially because of his record, but also because he chose an economic illiterate (federally) as his running partner.
Added to that of course is the simple fact that there is no simple answer. Greed and fear are universal failings and no one has found an answer to them yet.
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Ed
I like the idea of implementing Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful theories. It sounds very post-Capitalist.
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Sam
You know full well that a party does not to control Congress to be able to block legislation. And a majority in Congress does not ensure that virtually all legislation will be passed, unlike the UK House of Commons.
The Dems blocked regulation to regulate F mae and F Mac when all the portents were there for serious trouble. The Mccain campaign's 2 adverts on this were factually correct.
Enough banter.
What do you make of the effect ofg changing the international accounting rules to mar-to-market for such abstruese assets as sub-prime derivatives ?
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Mark touched on a very important point, which for some reason is not being addressed by the news media, the scope of the bailout (debt rescue plan) in relation to future corporate failures.
Both the auto and airline industries are already asking for sizable federal government loans to remain solvent and competitive. Considering that real estate prices will continue to fall, and construction has slowed down to a trickle, massive investment in infrastructure to repair their deteriorating condition - and create jobs - will also require additional investment or bailouts at a time when we depend on borrowed money to pay for what we need.
As huge as this gift to failed corporations and inept executives is, we are trying to contain a hemorrage with a bandaid.
Executives and government officials are not the only ones that need to be told to act responsibly, the American people need to be on top of the list, if nothing else because we are the ones that elect the leaders whose policies reflect our wishes.
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Be afraid! Be very afraid!
Watch it if you dare!McCain Campaign Can't...Won't...Rule Out Gramm As Treasury Secretary
Woooooo!
ed
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"Sam
Yes Congress was Repub controlled in 2005. Warnings have contimued through since 2006 - and it was becoming ever more clear that the problem of derivatives based on sub-prime (junk) mortgages was approaching criticl.2
You concede you were factually wrong about the control of congress.
"And he has used M Mae people in very high positions in his campaign - indeed he was forced to chuck one of them under the bus just a few weels ago. Can you deny that ?"
Yes one of them has denied it himself, and the reps accuse him of lying (a typical far right tactic).
SO the McCain ad is wrong. As usual.
And the other stepped down as adviser of the VP selection commitee, in whihc he and others made a very wise choice.
SO the people do not amount to much.
And of course there is:
"Senator John McCain?s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials "
And:
"
"The organization printed a photograph of Mr. McCain at the event in its 2004 annual report"
Oh dear
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Chill0,
One of the present problems is an inability to accept limits. It is no less a state of denial than any other.Localism is actually happening all around us. More farmers' markets, more local food, etc. Check out the Orion Society and Resurgence, which is a major heir/continuation of Schumacher's legacy.. I'm sure there are Vegans there.
The changes my be slow, but haven't we had enough of rapid and ill-considered change?
There is always Hope.
ed
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"62. At 12:58pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Sam
You know full well that a party does not to control Congress to be able to block legislation. And a majority in Congress does not ensure that virtually all legislation will be passed, unlike the UK House of Commons.
The Dems blocked regulation to regulate F mae and F Mac when all the portents were there for serious trouble. The Mccain campaign's 2 adverts on this were factually correct.
"
The fact remains you got the control of congress wrong - just admit it. The Reps were very clear about controlling congress.
The bill was also heavily flawed and criticised by many Republicans.
So Obama was correct to oppose a flawed piece of legislation and McCain again showed his ignorance of the issues.
The fact also is (just emerging) that"two of Mr McCain's most senior advisers, were once lobbyists who fought to prevent regulation of Fannie Mae and its cousin, Freddie Mac"
And this from the WSJ - politically ridiuclous but amazing just the same:
"The GOP Leads A 'Socialist' Bailout "
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Dominick,
These two, and the massive resource consumption they encourage, should be allowed to go to the wall! They have never been truly solvent, nor competitive.The Earth will sing on the day the last airport closes, and the last superhighway becomes an archaelogical relic with grass growing through the cracks.
Good riddance!
ed
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The speech Palin was to have given at the protest against Ahmedinejad today.
There was an opportununity for US politicians to show bipartisan opposition to the Iranian President.
Insread, the Dems pulled the plug on thir attendees, which in turned forced palin to be taken off the protest.
Party before country.
http://tinyurl.com/4mbdzd
................
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The Paulson plan is a con. ( He was anarchitect of the current crisis.)
Two factors -
1.
The Treasury Secretary can buy broadly defined assets, on any terms he wants, he can hire anyone he wants to do it and can appoint private sector companies as financial deputies of the US government. And he can write whatever regulation he thinks are needed.
2.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
The last chance to save the american economic system
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2008/09/20.html
The second video outlines the way to proceed to allow us to regain control of the financial system.
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Obama the "reformer" who has never reformed anything, or even attempted it.....and has never rocked the party boat. The Go-along-to-get-along" candidate.
As the Economist review puts it -
"If Obama really was the miracle-working, aisle-jumping, consensus-seeking new breed of politician his spin doctors make him out to be - you would expect to see some s=evidence in those eight years. But there is not very much."
Freddosi's book is the only detailed analysis of Obama's record, from Chicago onwards. That is why the Obama crowd have tried to shout down radio interviews about the book.etc.
http://tinyurl.com/52ecpn
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Dominick,
These two, and the massive resource consumption they encourage, should be allowed to go to the wall! They have never been truly solvent, nor competitive.The Earth will sing on the day the last airport closes, and the last superhighway becomes an archaelogical relic with grass growing through the cracks.
Good riddance!
ed
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On a matter raised in a previous thread, the difference between Shepherd's Pie and Cottage Pie is "B"
Bovine-Ovine=B
;-)
ed
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How on earth can people be suckered into believing that Obama is a "reformer". That is patent nonsense, snake-oil.
'
He NEVER lifted a finger to oppose the Daley machine in Chicago - indeed he fought for it and defended it.
How anyone with Obama's record can claim to be a "reformer", post-partisan yada yada yada is something that people will marvel at in years to come.
meanwhile it is reported that Palin pulled a crowd of some 60,000 in Florida yesterda - who had to gather and wait in sweltering heat.
60,000 !
Biden's max crowd so far is claimed to be 2000- anywhere (and many of them were probably just along for a gaffe)
http://tinyurl.com/494vna
Where was Bill Clinton's big crowd yesterday - or Hillary's ? Why are they still mostly on the sidelines, hedging their bets ?
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#66 Ed_Iglehart
I suppose I was referring to the human condition. We are generally quite self-indulgent and amoral in our own cause unless we have a specific interest.
That fits with capitalism. Any kind of capitalism will do, as long as it makes the things we want cheaper, more available, more appropriate, etc.
The 'specific interest' can be aroused by transient political causes like the environement; fair trade or pesticides. Then some big capitalist comes along and hijacks it - as has been the case with 'organics', I believe - and it is absorbed into the larger capitalist scheme of things.
That brings us back to the US election. Both candidates will set out to say 'I will solve this crisis in a credible way with minimal pain'
They know they can't but they also know the electorate.
That's us.
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Re Simon Barnes' column, surely the most appropriate response is:
"Booooooo"
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Gravy Train
Make sure the guilty lose their golden parachutes. They can make their own parachutes out of the junk tissue they've been selling ;-)and
No Blank Check
peace and hard landings for the Bar Stewards
ed
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"72. At 1:46pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Obama the "reformer" who has never reformed anything, or even attempted it.....and has never rocked the party boat. The Go-along-to-get-along" candidate.
As the Economist review puts it -
"If Obama really was the miracle-working, aisle-jumping, consensus-seeking new breed of politician his spin doctors make him out to be - you would expect to see some s=evidence in those eight years. But there is not very much."
Freddosi's book is the only detailed analysis of Obama's record, from Chicago onwards. That is why the Obama crowd have tried to shout down radio interviews about the book.etc."
The book is by a right-wing po0litcal extremist with form. N That is why no one is takling it seriously.
Anymore then the claim that John McCain is a washington outsider after 21 years in the Senate.
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localism will happen when the oil price hits 200 and stays there.
ed @ 45: "He's been in post a little over two years, and so far, his interventions have had little lasting effect. "
..the proof is in the pudding.
btw the name is bena, not ben
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Gravy Train
Make sure the guilty lose their golden parachutes. They can make their own parachutes out of the junk tissue they've been selling ;-)and
No Blank Check
peace and hard landings for the Bar Stewards
ed
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Why is the Obama campaign linked to smear videos, outright lies on the 'Net about Palin ?
http://tinyurl.com/3v39v4
Are there direct links to David Axelrod on these smears ? Joining the dots raise serious questions about Axelrod's integrity, and about the "purity" of the Obama campaign tyhat has been down and dirty from the outset..
There has been an attempt to erase all trace of the stuff - but cached copies are available.
http://tinyurl.com/3v39v4
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#57
John,
Had Fannie and Freddie been regulated as you wish, the liquidity crisis would have come earlier than now. Regulations were loosened at paulsons request.
Regarding the McCain ads, well John boy has been so honest so far. Those ads have not gone through the fullk fact checking process yet, but $50 to charity says they meet the minimum 'distortion' level and may even reach 'pants on fire' like most of his others.
Fannie, Freddie, Thousand Year Reich. Boring.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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"70. At 1:36pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
The speech Palin was to have given at the protest against Ahmedinejad today.
There was an opportununity for US politicians to show bipartisan opposition to the Iranian President."
I agree just a pity that the extremists invited Palin
They try to politicise every event.
"Insread, the Dems pulled the plug on thir attendees, which in turned forced palin to be taken off the protest.
Party before country."
A brilliant tactic in to which Palin walked - yet again.
She is now proving a clear liability.
................
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Q&Aon the bailout
Not a bad guide to the esoterica involved...Meanwhile...
ed
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McCain seems even to be slipping in Florida. Surely a safe bet?
Again more evidence of Obama's superb timing.
Brave of him to campaign in these areas though
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j422UZ1PVKXp0gH6HCwaY4pg5n7gD93B6UQ80
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Sam
I find you boring too, mostly.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
"82. At 2:28pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Why is the Obama campaign linked to smear videos, outright lies on the 'Net about Palin ?
http://tinyurl.com/3v39v4
"
Because Palin deserves it, no risk can be taken that she becomes VP.
Good to see the Democrats returning fire.
In any case she has troubles with the truth herself.
"Are there direct links to David Axelrod on these smears ? Joining the dots raise serious questions about Axelrod's integrity, and about the "purity" of the Obama campaign tyhat has been down and dirty from the outset..
There has been an attempt to erase all trace of the stuff - but cached copies are available."
Not many people will care. Palin has been revealed to be the half-educated, over ambitious cipher some of us said she was.
The drip-drip effect is working.
She is damaged goods, as predicted.
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Sam
Why are you bored by F Mae and F Mac ? Refusing to accept that they were at the base of the whole house of cards ?
Chapter and verse in the link below on the FACT of Dems blocking legislation in 2005 that might have averted the financial chaos - F Mae and F Mac are at the root of all the trouble, and should have been curbed sooner. No-one was arguing at the time that stronger regulation would have preciptated a crisis - that idea is made by Sam out of whole cloth.:
McCain was on of the handful of sponsirs for the 2005 Bill. Obama and the Dems opposed the Bill en bloc. And Obama carried on taking money.
From Bloomberg :
http://tinyurl.com/4u9rnk
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Article in WaPo catalogues TeamObama's lies on Social Security, on immigration, on health-car taxation - and now outright scare tactics on Social Security.
As the article says - Dems need not worry, Obama is capable of scurrilous.
http://tinyurl.com/4l3fas
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Did anyone read John's 2nd link in #82. I do not know anything about the Jawa Report, but as it looks into internet smears on Palin, it's obviously not left wing. It's obvious what JohnAAA thinks, and I though it made interesting reading, but who knows whether it is true! Did anyone Obama-leaning read it, and if so, what do they make of it?
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It seems that The US government is more for huge corporations that are financially reckless and lose billions to bad administration and poor oversight than for the average taxpayer. Why should taxpayers who actually have to pay for the bail-out have to foot the bill? These corporations are not owned by the government they are owned by their shareholders, why can't they dig down from their own resources to pay for mistakes or let the corps fail? Where did the money go?
700 Billion is notall of it more has been squandered. Wall street rejoices because of the bail-out, but are ordinary citizens happy?
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I doubt that partisan exchanges here accomplish anything, but:
1) Do partisan exchanges here advance understanding and influence voting?
(2) Let us not give up on the "relative merits of universities" issue. I think that there is a qualititative difference between undergraduate and graduate education. Consequently, they should be ranked separately.
(3) One poster here is seemingly unaware of her extraordinarily blinkered biases and confusion between personal religious views and government.
In our World today, uncertainty and insecurity foster the desire for fundamentalist "certainties".
Thus, the whole question of ideology and the obedient authoritarian personality assume a relevance that needs to be addressed.
______________________
I see no hope for the USA unless there is a "Great Awakening" of the sort that arrived in 1932.
For, the populace has lived with convenient and comfortable lies for too long.
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Palin damaged goods ? But 60,000 people turned out to see and hear her in one meeting in Florida yesterday.
Obama made one - just one - appeal to people tomkeep people's families out of the attacks. he then saw the vile personal attacks continuing - echoed by sick postings right here in a BBC blog - but he did not repaeat his appeal.
I have commended him on his first statement. But I am begining to doubt if he wss being honest in really waning buse against Palin stopped..
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Off topic already, but you can't afford to take your eyes off the middle east. The Iranians love the Israelis really.
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"Palin damaged goods ? But 60,000 people turned out to see and hear her in one meeting in Florida yesterday. "
Did they, where? Not another one of the mysterious figures plicked from the air?
"Though the audience was one of the Palin?s largest to date, the actual size of the crowd was unclear. "
Oh dear caught out again.
"Obama made one - just one - appeal to people tomkeep people's families out of the attacks. he then saw the vile personal attacks continuing - echoed by sick postings right here in a BBC blog - but he did not repaeat his appeal."
You said Obama "consorts with terrorists" pretty much the vilest thing posted on these blogs - and in the US would probably have got you a visit by the authorities.
Still it displayed your real agenda.
Still awating fro the retraction on that one.
" have commended him on his first statement. But I am begining to doubt if he wss being honest in really waning buse against Palin stopped.."
The attacks will hopefully continue. Palin was able to hear a cancer victim mocked without intervening, solely because she was a politcal opponent - so she deserves all she gets and more.
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"90. At 3:01pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Sam
Why are you bored by F Mae and F Mac ? Refusing to accept that they were at the base of the whole house of cards ?
Chapter and verse in the link below on the FACT of Dems blocking legislation in 2005 that might have averted the financial chaos - F Mae and F Mac are at the root of all the trouble, and should have been curbed sooner. No-one was arguing at the time that stronger regulation would have preciptated a crisis - that idea is made by Sam out of whole cloth.:"
FACT the legislation was blocked by Republicans.
FACT it was badly flawed legislation - admitted by republicans
FACT McCain's judgement was flawed again.
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Both sides claim the other side is lying. True dems will always support their candidate and gops support their own. Is this a contest of the lesser of two evils? Europe and the rest of the world seems to favour Obama, why, from the outside looking in the perspective is different.
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McCain winning on 'honesty of purpose':
McCain's proposals about greater Federal
supervision should ring true with those who
have the larger interests of U.S.A at heart and that would be the typical American pragmatists who are in the majority. With the present, pervasive sense of urgency about the economic situation, the American
voters are in no mood for the 'quick fixes'
and platitudes of McCain's rivals, however
strong the 'tone'.
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Re:#89. Spot on. Ran a half marathon in Philadelphia yesterday and saw a couple of female runners with this message on their shirts: "Palin is an insult to women. Republicans for Obama/Biden"
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SeansPa,
True. But they hate the regime. The major error possible in a shallow reading of your linked article is to conflate hatred of Zionism (or of the Israeli Regime) with hatred of the people of Israel or of Jews in general. It is the same error encountered almost every day on this series of blog threads by those who conflate opposition to the current US Regime with "anti-Americanism".Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Pax/Peace
ed
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JohnAAA
Good link to the book review, took a few minutes to read the comments and they read the same as here. This one was written by a poster called 'blindcharlie':
That is the battleground for the Presidential race. The 'deaf and blind' just WANT something different and that is change for them. Be it the 'free' medical (making your neighbor pay for your life choices and debauchery), housing and food. The 'change' sounds like money in thier pocket.
It isn't the "Obama History" nor his record that is keeping so many bound beyond reason. Even the financially 'well to do' want this man as president. Though they can find no reason to vote for Obama, from achievment or history, many are just voting against McCain, and subsequently Bush.
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And as to the "Bailout" of "Wall Street" by "Main Street" bothers this republican, as I don't know the answer, nor the solution.
What good is saving your retirement and social security when the 'dollar' is worthless?
Neither canidate is willing to let the market correct. What will be the new standard currency, the euro? A worldwide "UN-Peso"?
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Put the *tit for tat* down for 5 minutes; put the kettle on; relax and have a peep at this regional overview on the Pakistan / Afghanistan / Central Asia situation and the place of nation building. Interesting taster.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7530272.stm
Bill
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Local Exchange Trading Systems
your solution people
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#42 MarkfromOxford
Very well thought out--worth reading by one and all.
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103. At 3:51pm on 22 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:
JohnAAA
Good link to the book review, took a few minutes to read the comments and they read the same as here. This one was written by a poster called 'blindcharlie':
"I am deaf to any attack on Obama. For me, The danger to my country is the Republican Party's agenda, as distinct from conservative principles."
That is the battleground for the Presidential race. The 'deaf and blind' just WANT something different and that is change for them. Be it the 'free' medical (making your neighbor pay for your life choices and debauchery), housing and food. The 'change' sounds like money in thier pocket.
It isn't the "Obama History" nor his record that is keeping so many bound beyond reason. Even the financially 'well to do' want this man as president. Though they can find no reason to vote for Obama, from achievment or history, many are just voting against McCain, and subsequently Bush.
------------------------------------------------
Doug you half baked texan, when have you even come up with any decent reason for voting for the GOP.
when have you been able to show them getting anything right.
so enough with the funny cowboy crud you are fond of ie yourself.
just come up with a written essay on why we should vote for more republican idiots.one that is not just full of "he's phoney: etc.
you are pathetic
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When I first moved to the US in 2004, I was shocked at the number of negative ads on TV. Those posters in the US will know well that this does not stop at federal elections, we have state elections at the same time.
We actually get triple whammied here in North Idaho as out TV coverage is Spokane-based, so we get to see ads for Washington politicians as well. Thank god, if I dare, that we don't also get Montana ads (in a land so vast, with a state so big, north idaho is squeezed between 2 states, 3 if you include Oregon).
So to combine talk on regulation and policy, how can these elections be cleaned up so that fiction is removed, from all sides? Pointing out inconsistencies in your opponent is all very well, but these have to be based upon fact. Are the 527s just a device to allow the candidate impicitly being supported to appear to be above the gutter, or are they an essential part of giving the people a voice?
Does the race need to last so long? Who's doing the job of the senators/governors running during all this time? Is this all just a clever and hugely profitable wheeze by PR and media companies to make one hell of a lot of money? Obama has supposedly raised an incredible amount of money for his campaign. Where does it all go?
If I could vote, I'd certainly vote for someone who would clean up Washington. But will such a person ever get the chance to run?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Bill, from your link, for which thanks,
Surely a mis-translation! Is it the business of "the international community" to "hold" such elections? I think he must mean "ensure such elections are held", or somesuch.Mr Rashid seems a wise and well-informed man. I note the Indo-Pak dimension of proxy war in Kabul. Was it ever thus? May i take the opportunity to highlight an initiative close to my heart, local communities forging links of friendship.
These are some of my oldest friends, and I can personally vouch for their integrity.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Pax/Peace
ed
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74. At 1:53pm on 22 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
On a matter raised in a previous thread, the difference between Shepherd's Pie and Cottage Pie is "B"
Bovine-Ovine=B
a local"top dinning spot" in eugene has a classic "shepherds pie "
contains Beef ,turkey ,pork,but no sheep.
I tried asking if their shepherds were all thieves .
hey and cottage contains peas and such right?
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SeansPa,
Have you been into the Hell's Canyon Wilderness with Sean? Or river rafting? I was there with my son a good while ago. Idaho is beautiful in many varied places, and has a population density I can get along with. ;-)
Say hello from me to the next osprey, wolf or bear you see.
Happy Trails
ed
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If Democrats were Republicans they would approve this message.
Watch
cheers
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111
ed these people are forging links in africa
http://www.tfsr.org/
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#72
John,
I love the way you take a quote from a right wing hack in a book review and dress it up like it was something the Economist said. It's so sordid, exactly waht you would expect of a McCain supporter.
#75
It is not the job of State politicians to intervene in local Mayoral politics or party machines. Especially the legislature. Another wild claim that Obama didn't do something you would have liked him to be able to do but wasn't. You really shouldn;' get your facts from a book review of a bias book.
BTW, he has never claimed to be a 'reformer', that's Palin. Or a 'uniter' (GW). What he has said is he will change Washington. Since just a little bit of competence would be a significant change, he has a pretty low bar to jump. Johnny M on the other hand wants to claim he will change something he has been a part of for over 26 years. He never wanted to change it before and has been cheerleader in chief for 8 years, but what the hey.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
Sad Sam
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sad sam, cheer up.
it ain't worth losing your sense of humor due to JohnAAA!
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Aye, Jack! People to people cuts out the middle-man (middle-person?). Local to local is best.
Also here
and Here
for more inspiration.
All is not dark. ()
ed
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#90
John,
I know you want to feel that the global banking system is in trouble because Freddie and Fannie failed. But you would be wrong. So wrong that it's difficult to know where to start. Let's try macro economics 101
- Bush and Congress inherit a budget surplus
- Bush proposes tax cuts to 'give people their money back'
- McCain is against cuts as 'irresponsible'
- Congress goes on spending spree
- Fed cuts interest rates off back of surplus
- Bush tax framework loads benefits on top 5, working families see real income fall
- Mortgage lenders get very fond of ARMs and other adjustable rate mortgages. Prove very popular with buyers due to low interest rates
- Banks package debts as derivatives and sell on the global financial markets
- GW abandons strong dollar policy
- Deficit rises, as does inflation off the back of cheap credit
- As foreign investors start to worry about losses, Fed has to raise interest rates
- ARM payments go up, people cannot pay
- Value of mortgage based instruments falls
- Mortgage holders default
- Banks write off asset values. Become shy of lending
- Financial liquidity crisis begins
- central banks pump money into system, not enough
- Fannie, Freddie asked to take on riskier debt instruments to add liquidity
- Fannie, Freddie do this
- Most vulnerable banks start to fail due to lack of cash. Bear Sterns, Northern Rock
- Further bank failures, Fannie Freddie continue to buy bad debt
- Fanni / Freddie fail
- Remaining investment banks change structure to diversify services and portfolio
Fannie /Freddie are a tiny part of this mess. To say they caused it is either disingenuous or ignorant. Not a single economist in the world will agree with them as the cause.
Economist Sam
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Second the #42 by Mark
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Re: #117. The Daily Kos notes they are changing the format of the VP debates to have shorter question and answer segments so as not to disadvantage Palin. The comments include a reference to her as Caribou Barbie. That should cheer Sam up.
VP debate format
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114. At 4:23pm on 22 Sep 2008, goleooo
Now thats a watcher, says it all.
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Ed, you've pretty well nailed why we moved here. We may curse at the traffic, but 5 minutes out of town it can disappear. We have deer come through our garden all the time. Even though they eat all of our flowers, I don't want to stop them by putting a fence up. We've seen black bears and moose locally, although the only wolves we've seen are captive. Elk abound as well, but we've yet to see them in the wild. Osprey are everywhere as we have so many lakes, and they are far better fishermen than us. Last winter we counted 150 bald eagles on a local eagle watch boat trip.
Hunters also abound here, but there appears to be a good balance between 'harvesting' and conservation.
We haven't made it to Hells Canyon yet, as we tend to have either sporting events or scout camps most weekends that prevent long trips. Last weekend we had a soccer tournament in Sandoint (where I had the best pint of Guinness I've had over here). Sandpoint, of course, is the birth-place of the she-devil. We have though white-water rafted down the Clark Fork in Montana. Relatively tame, but refreshing when capsized.
Why do I love Idaho? The geography, the wildlife, and the people, most of whom feel the same way. Shame about the meth problem though!
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#82 JohnAAA: "Why is the Obama campaign linked to smear videos, outright lies on the 'Net about Palin?"
If you care to actually read the text, you will see that the writer clearly states
"This does not mean that we believe that Barack Obama's campaign is behind the stealth Palin smear campaign."
So once again you misquote someone; it's becoming a tiresome habit.
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Sam,
You left out AIG!
Thanks for the tip Ms Marbles!
;-)
ed
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114. goleooo
Bush and Congress inhetited a "FUTURE" surplus in ten years, if the budget and cost followed the course at the time of Clinton. 9-11 changed that straight up.
Tax cuts let us keep our money.
McCain was right!
Congress was wrong!
Wrong on first two, Right on rest. Too bad for us, though McCain will be a step in the right direction, thanks for pointing that out.
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Sorry Gloeoo, the above was Sam Tyler, no slam meant
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Sam, #119, everyone re-writes eveything to suit their purpose.
Your first 2 items are
- Bush and Congress inherit a budget surplus
- Bush proposes tax cuts to 'give people their money back'
The first may or may not be true (someone earlier said the surplus was only projected - I don't know if that claim is true). The second is misleading at best. My recollection was that the tax cuts were introduced not because there was a surplus (whch is how I read your post) but because the economy was slowing down and the cuts were seen by Bush as a way to boost the economy. On the basis that the horse's mouth is the best source of information, this what was said by the White House.
Your posts are mostly fairly wise. Sometimes, though, your over-egg your posts when trying to make a political point - isn't this somethng you accuse John of?
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tthis article sums it all up. how we became the united states of france
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html?cnn=yes
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#124, David, the 2nd link in #82 showed a trail that appeared to lead to Axelrod. He has something to do with the Obama campaign. The 'facts' in the story may or may not be true, you can't pick one sentence and acuse John of misquoting when you ignore everything else!
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SeansPa,
Are you sure you were listening at the right end?Seriously that particular horse is an unlikely source for anything but spin.
Whatever we do, we mustn't stop shopping! It might cause a "Wylie Coyote moment"
;-)
ed
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#129, moderate observer, very funny and a lot of truth. Sacre blue.
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We in the US have allowed our government to become what it is today in the Bush administration... liars, theives who think they don't have to answer to anyone for their ill-doings, and religious extremists bent on using the power of our military to do their "holy" bidding.
Obama/Biden '08 - Let the changes begin!
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McCain has no shame!
Watch
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HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN!
Bush magically comes up with one trillion dollars from somewhere.
WORLD NEWS
Pakistan Troops Ordered to Fire on U.S. Troops Who Attack Across Border
U.S. troops ordered to attack across border if fired upon.
Ironically yours,
ed
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Ed, we have coyotes here as well, although I've ony heard them. No roadrunners, although the quail, who will run rather than fly if at all possible, are hilarious.
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#126, 128
Doug, Sean,,
Surplus in 1998 was $69bn, in 1999 it was $128bn.
By running a deficit we are spending our childrens money. Plus interest. To the Chinese.
Bush ran with the promise to return the surplus to the people (in this case the people being the top 5% of earners, mostly). Econmically sound. He then extended that concept to use tax cuts as a fiscal stimulus (economically unsound). Since then the stimulus arguement has been the main one.
Forgetful Sam
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Meanwhile....
;-)
ed
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#121
Sam is smiling. Though I prefer SNL's simple 'shrew'.
Happy Sam
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Ed, I like the story "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco And Firearms Reports Losing
Dozens of Firearms - Alcohol blamed. They forgot to mention that they were lost in shops while buying ciggies.
Sam, I wasn't here for the 2000 election and I don't recall tax cuts being part of the manifesto, at least as presented in the UK. About the only thing covered in the UK in the run up to that election was Bush's speaking prowess. I'm quite prepared to believe you though on the basis that I'm sure I'm more forgtful than you.
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I agree with Barney Frank on the propsed bail-out (and with much of what Mark said previously) when he says Democrats would want certain changes, such as guaranteeing that the pay for bosses of the firms being bailed out was limited. Speaking as a non-democrat, it's not just democrats. it should be criminal to walk away with millions when causing others losses of billions. Whether they actually caused it or not, failure should not be rewarded.
I also like the part that says the G7 would "protect the integrity of the international financial system". Integrity is probably the wrong word right now.
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Honorable Sam,
You are correct, in that there was a surplus, prior to repayment of borrowed money to Social Security. Bill Clintons surplus was a limited budget annual surplus prior to paying down any promised debt and promised (not completed) limits on discretionary spending, in 1999 and 2000.
Here is an explanation or the budget for 1999., stating the future surpluses soley based on limits imposed in discretionary spending.
Many believed that in an account held somewhere by Uncle Sam existed 5 billion dollars, not so nor even close.
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Rogues Gallery
And, the stimulating effect of yet another huge gob of liquidity seems already to be fading....A Sense of Resentment Amid the 'For Sale' Signs
What next?
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Ref 137
Sam, I think it is also worth mentioning that we are currently paying $200B a year in interest on the national debt, enough to pay for universal healthcare and repair our infrastructure.
The fiscal irresponsibility of the Republican Administrations that have adopted trickle down economics since the Reagan days have not only saddled our children with a huge debt, but also prevent us from implementing social and infrastructure improvements critical to our standard of living and competitiveness.
President Bush's dismissive concerns about our debt, which he referred to a couple of years ago as "IOUs...pieces of paper" ignores the reality that a US default on its debt - if that's what he had in mind when he made that comment - would destroy the global economy, not to mention ours.
Incredibly, the most fiscally irresponsible administrations in US history call themselves conservative, while those that advocate paying for the services you get and, if possible, running a surplus are considered liberal!
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79. Simon21:
"The book is by a right-wing po0litcal extremist with form. N That is why no one is takling it seriously.
Anymore then the claim that John McCain is a washington outsider after 21 years in the Senate."
Or any more than the claim that Obama is a a 'reformer'.
Strip away the image, and Obama's remaining credentials seem to be "intelligence" and "thoughtfulness".
Lovely qualities, but not enough to qualify him for the White House.
You get an "A" for effort, though. ;-)
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Oh Justin, you are naughty posting a link like that.
The Americans are too canny to play world sports and be beaten by the Australians like the rest of us. It would surely be a crime to make the Aussies any more insufferable than they already are.
Plus, a game like rugby in a country as litigious as the States is just one big 'you-must-be-joking'.
America may not be an importer of sports, but Britain never has been either, preferring to export them. The real question must be why America exports almost all aspects of its culture apart from its sports. One answer, I guess, would be that sport isn't easily commodified, exported, and sold.
And another answer would be that American football and baseball are a bit pants and nobody in their right mind would want to buy them.
But seriously, I think you guys are missing out. Could we really explain to our transatlantic cousins what it would mean for England or Scotland to win the football World Cup?
As soon as America embraces decent sports and proper crosswords, I'm there.
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Obviously, I can see that we are all crazy to hear the latest about the US election but you are the North America correspondent, Justin. Any chance of hearing the tiniest little detail about the other G8 country on the continent? I believe they have an upcoming election?
I'm also interested in Mexico and the Caribbean - other North American places.
Thanks!
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Two Million?
Surely not! Not because he was close to McClean!I am disappointed and disillusioned and shattered!
;-)
ed
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#42, Mark, when are you going to quit your day
job and help us fix this mess?
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Ref 101
Candace, I wish I could say the same. What I see in Florida are women wearing Palin T-shirts, wearing glasses that resemble hers, similar hairdos, etc.
The huge crowd that listened to her speech in Lady Lake, Florida, yesterday was larger and more enthusiastic than anything Obama, Biden, and McCain have seen since the conventions. In fact, the Palin factor seems to be so powerful in some parts of the country that I think if she was on top of the ticket, and dropped McCain as a running mate, she would win by double digits.
What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that many voters are not interested in trooper-gate, the bridge to nowhere, or her record on earmarks; they like her because they see themselves in her and relate to her strengths as well as her weaknesses. A person that struggled in community colleges before graduating from a relatively obscure university has much more in common with mainstream America than one with a compelling personal story, who rose to the top and became President of his class at one of the most prestigious universities in our country. The same goes for her personal family problems. Even her oil worker turned commercial fisherman husband has tremendous appeal to middle class voters, that's why he appears regularly behind McCain or Sarah at their rallies.
Her charisma and appeal should not be dismissed, her attributes could very well be the deciding factors in November.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How many more McCain lies are you willing to take?
Watch
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#130.seanspa: "you can't pick one sentence and acuse John of misquoting when you ignore everything else!" JohnAAA had stated "Why is the Obama campaign linked . . . ."
I didn't ignore everything else, simply quoted what the writer concluded, regardless of where other links led. Posters can make up their own minds, but it plainly said
"This does not mean that we believe that Barack Obama's campaign is behind the stealth Palin smear campaign."
It was whether or not the campaign was involved and the response was that they did not believe so. How can you argue with that?!
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The De-Regulator
;-)
ed
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Sam, Clinton may have anounce the 1999 surplus, but somewhere in the article it is claimed that it came about only because of the the Republican controlled legislature! The wonder of the dotcom age also helped, of course. Whatever happened to that?
This is not to diss Clinton (on this, anyway) or to claim it was the replublicans that did it. Just to point out that the truth is like God, there's one on every side.
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George Will, a conservative columnist, on McCain
"I suppose the McCain campaign's hope is that when there's a big crisis, people will go for age and experience," said Will. "The question is, who in this crisis looked more presidential, calm and un-flustered? It wasn't John McCain who, as usual, substituting vehemence for coherence, said 'let's fire somebody.' And picked one of the most experienced and conservative people in the administration, Chris Cox, and for no apparent reason... It was un-presidential behavior by a presidential candidate."
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With the latest moves in the banking system,
it looks like we've got Big Brother and the Holding
Company in charge. Janis Joplin was just ahead
of her time by about 40 years.
In all probability, the CEOs of our remaining
investment banks are humming "Piece of My Heart"
inbetween meetings.
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How McCain makes his ads - and conclusive proof that "Nobama" wants tax cuts for paedophiles and free health care for Osama Bin Laden.
And once again the BBC averts its eyes.
Obama's Tax Cuts For Paedophiles
Or http://tinyurl.com/3khsb2
JohnAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]AKA "It's the end of the world as we know it (and I feel fine)" And once more, yet again, as usual, typically, just like the last time, they're just oh so predictable, the BBC averts its eyes. JohnAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB
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The thing that I don't understand is that this economic problem has been in the making ever since they amended the Glass Steagal act, which prohibited banks from owning other financial institutions and vice versa, in 1999.
The cause of the great depression was many fold, but one of the final straws was the south sea bubble. We now face multiple bubbles and the largest is the housing market-were banks and financial institutions have mixed.
History seems to be preparing for a repeat as ignorance of the past reigns supreme, especially that of congress and the president.
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Bryn-UK (#146), it is as pointless to try to explain the charms of baseball to a Brit as it is to explain the charms of cricket to an American.
Setting that aside, what do you think is wrong with our crosswords? ( I mean the gold standard in The New York Times, not the lesser ones.)
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JohnAAA would love this...
READ
Just the type of interview worth the president of a handicapped society of idiots.
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"You get an "A" for effort, though. ;-)"
Well DONE ANDREAinNY!
All the same...typical republican mentality:
"A" for the effort.
And for those who actually do get the job done? Hmm...well all the same..they all tried eh...
hahaha...
Are you an JohnAAA sort of like McCain soulmates? husband and wife sort of deal?
It seems like you and him are competing real hard on the ignorance contest, and the "Who is the Loyal one?" show.
But to win that trophy, you'll have to put a bit more effort. JohnAAA is leading.
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102, Ed.
What people don't realize, and there is no reason they should, is that the comments in Farsi are not always accurately translated, or are purposely mistranslated. Politicians and the media can get away with it because so few speak Farsi aside from Iranians.
The words concerning the destruction of Israel, attributed to Ayatollah Kohmeni, was a misquote. What he actually was talking about was getting rid of the regime, that is, the Israeli govenrment, not the wholesale destruction of Israelis.
When Khomeni was on his way to Iran to head up the revolution, I was sitting in my living room listening to an interview with him on his Air France plane. The conversation was being translated into English. At one point the interviewer asked him how he felt about returning to Iran. Khomeni curled his lip, and with a sneer, said "Heechi." This was translated as "no comment." What Khomeni actually said was "nothing." In context the meaning was very nasty.
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Hiding in Plain Sight - Why is Sarah Palin granting so few interviews?
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Sarah Palin's Yahoo email account
"Sarah Palin has used her private email account to conduct state business, and she was doing so to circumvent the state's public records law and avoid public scrutiny"
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Simon21-JohnAAA-Simon21-JohnAAA-Simon21-JohnAAA-Simon21-JohnAAA . . . . .
I can't think why either of you bother. Wasted effort for both of you; and substitute any other poster for Simon21. Remember, he can't vote and his opinions are not worth the space they take up.
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David, as usual the truth is on the eye of the beholder. I read the statement as a midpoint rather than a conclusion. That, based upon the evidence laid out, there was no absolute proof. However, they then go on to say:
"What we do believe we have found is that David Axelrod's firm has worked with the voice over artist in the eswinner Palin smear video. In fact, each and every political ad showcased on Axelrod's website that has a female voice over seems to be the same voice from the Palin smear ad. That Axelrod used her over and over again in his videos going back several years."
"We also know that David Axelrod is considered the master of orchestrating grassroots campaigns that appear spontaneous and which are difficult to trace to him."
This reads to me that they have most definitely not come to the conclusion that Axelrod has nothing to do with it.
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#113. Ed Iglehart: "Idaho is beautiful in many varied places"
Totally off-topic: you touch on something which many outside the USA forget, the vastness of the continent. Britons (and others) frequently berate Americans for not traveling abroad, but there is so much to see at home. If posters will forgive the slightly sugary (and rather long) presentation this will illustrate many of the reasons for staying home.
Actually I find the harp accompaniment very peaceful - and I feel sure OldSouth will appreciate it.
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Seanspa,
Best wishes from Wales...
Never been to Idaho.But was captivated by
the off beat film Napoleon Dynamite.Filmed
with Idaho the back drop, you are soooo lucky,its stunningly beautyfull.....
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Capital! - class war is back on the agenda! The alleged triumph of the west was all a mirage. The debt crisis goes back three decades. That great free-marketeer, Ronzo Bonzo Reagan - talk about Irish 'badness' - ran up a massive debt in the 80's getting America out of it's worst post-war crash and recession since the 30's during the stagflation years of the late 70's. It's been the same ever since, mountains of private and public debt, sooner or later the party had to come to an end. Unfortunately, while Wall St. investors were pigging out, most proles were still struggling to get by in the go-go 80's and roaring 90's. And now that the public has to "rescue" the greedy buggers from themselves, the cost of the future consequences will be as unfairly distributed as the bounty of the rewards was previously. Government in America exists to serve those who need it least, in reverse Robin Hood fashion. The cloned candidates of the Duopoly Party are the handmaidens of their corporate kleptocrats. So of course, they have nothing to offer but "tone" - the more substantial policy "alternatives" would be too drastic for them to contemplate. America is neither addicted to oil or to debt, but many Americans are. There are many America's not all of which share in the greed or share in the blame for the venality, but all of whom will share in the consequences . One thing America is not however, is a democracy, so you can be sure that the rewards like the consequences of America's profligacy will continue to be unfairly distributed no matter who is crowned figurehead president in November. So, it's not just foreigners that are hoping that it will be all over this time for this decadent system of U.S power - even though foreigners, of course, suffer the worst from it. And it's not just Americans who apologize for it, as we have to continually put up with America cheerleading from BBC correspondents and ex-pat academic opportunists like Niall Ferguson who's never quite sure what he believes but like Obama is very good at using tone to cover up his lack of substance and moral clarity.
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allmymarbles - thanks for your reply to my statement "let the companies die."
Yes, I did think of what would happen in terms of a global depression. My hope would be that we would weather it and come out with a better financial system that is regulated properly to prevent the same thing happening again. There's a lot worse things in life than losing money.
My ancestors were frontier folk, and that hardiness showed in my grandparents. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression. They told me the experience was one of learning, not of suffering. They lost every cent of their money, their house, and their jobs. On the other hand, they learned the value of hard work, the blessing of sharing, and they learned to appreciate the little things a lot more. They came through it closer together as a family and a community. It seems that they gained much more than they lost!
I'm glad my grandmother taught me how to survive on nothing. Looks like those skills will come in handy. I can make sourdough bread for 10 cents a loaf, and can my own peaches, tomatoes, etc. As long as I can harvest my teeny garden, my family won't starve, and I'll see to it my neighbors don't either. I have confidence in the generosity of other Americans to their neighbors too.
I can be prepared, and that is an empowering thought! If letting the corruption die on wall street brings on a depression, let it come, I for one am ready to learn.
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re: #137 SamTyler1969
"Surplus in 1998 was $69bn, in 1999 it was $128bn."
You are buying into political spin, just as you accuse others of doing. There never was a "Clinton surplus". In effect, the claim relies on using two sets of books.
To a rational person, a surplus occurs when the total income exceeds total expenditure + additional accrued liabilities during a particular time interval. The "Clinton surplus" calculation was the result of counting the SS tax receipts as part of the income while ignoring the additional liability of the SS fund. Even Gore saw through this political BS claim, and tried to campaign on the SS "lock box" issue.
BTW, this "creative accounting" is not new: it was first used by LBJ to "prove" that the Viet Nam war wasn't that expensive, after all.
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#155
Hi Sean,
This is true, Newt Gingrich and the contract for America did share responsibility for the surplus as part of the balanced budget reforms in Congress. I like those Republicans. Newt once had a debatre with Jack Horner about the hunting behaviors of T-Rex. Smart guy (his position on T-Rex was also correct, in my humble opinion). Those were nice Republicans. Responsible Republicans. Good Republicans. They liked puppies. With them and Clinton being unable to agree on anything we ended up with a surplus. Brilliant!
Then Georgie showed up and it was like watching a movie and half way through someone tapped Stephen Spielberg on the shoulder and Tim Burton steps in. The new Republicans, with Delay at the head, dropped the balanced budget approach and started spending like a drunken sub mariner on shore for the first time in 9 months. Mean Republicans who don't like kittens. Or Newts.
I agree the Republicans were responsible for part of the surplus. But not the ones we have now. Bring back the old style, sensible Reps like Olympia Snow, Gingrich et al and I would be very happy with the GOP.
And that's the God's honest truth.
Honest Sam
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#157
Thanks Guns,
'Lord,
won't you buy me
A Mercedes Benz ...'
Stop the music loop!
Obsessed Sam
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#142
Doug,
Agreed, there is an accounting trick with social security. Still, we count the numbers the same now and we spend a heck of a lot more than we collect, and a huge diffreence compared to '98 and '99.
Tax me now, before you ruin me!
Fiscal Sam
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108 jacksforge
Yes indeed, many people have negative reasons for not voting McCain "Bush".
.....................
Sam
You are always attacking the messenger, not the message.
....................
An awful lot of Repubs would agree with you that spending and public debt has risen too much under Bush - amont other things, damaging the dollar badly.
McCain is not on the spend,spend,spend side of the argument. Whether he can convince voters that he can keep the ral economy (Main Street) going , while trying at least to stem public spending, we shall see.
Here in the UK Gordon Brown has claimed to be an economic wizard. But likewise he has built up ridiculous levels of debt, the state is now taking a significantly highr proportion of GDP - and whatever the hopes and claims, much of the social spending has not delivered proportionate results. As Jermiah Wright might say - the chickens are now coming home to roost.
.....................
150 DominickVila
Those comments on Palin seem fair and balanced. What might be the effect if her barnstorming meetings stayed with big audiences - very big - might that actually swing some votes, simply by attemndeees (who are probably going to vote McCain/Palin anyway) spreading the message a bit among doubters and independenta ? The race is still tight, Palin (for better or worse) helped close the previous big gap, and I would not be suprpised if the Biden/Palin debate to atrract bigger audiences than the Pesidential contenders attract.
As you say - many many people can relate to her story, her middle-class background - and I think the bar may be set fairly low for her in that dbate. If she totally flops, obviously that could be damaging, but if she gives an about-par perfomance she should get through OK - people are not exoecting her to be brilliant.
And by all accounts she is not too bad a debater.
.........158
John-inDublin
The gloves are off now, both sides will publish ads that stretch the point - and some from both sides will be misleading or plain lies / gross exaggerations. The question will partly hinge on which side gets the most effective most punches in, low blows or not .And both sides will assuredly punch low quite often ?
'Twas ever thus.
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#125
Ed,
I apologize. They are dropping like flies. Though AIG has not failed or been bailed out, yet. That loan was actually pretty smart, keeps their credit rating up without them having to call in the note.
Wish the rest of Paulsons plan was like that. Instead he seems to want to buy the crappy assets in return for no share of the companies and hope they come good. I guess the power of Prayer will see us through.
Religious Sam
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Christopher Hitchens being nasty and cutting. That's a change !
But he asks again - what iphrases can anyone remember from his "imperishable" sppeches
Obama should be ahead by a country mile. He isn't.
http://www.slate.com/id/2200587/?from=rss
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Voices on the right like Bill Kristol objecting to Paulson becoming de facto czar, with virtul carte blanche :
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/22/opposing-the-bailout-plan-from-the-right/
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Biden has a worse record for supporting wasteful spemding than Obama. Allegedly, of course !
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/22/cagw-says-obama-not-the-worst-senator-on-waste-biden-is/
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To#66Edinglehart
You are so correct, small changes and slow growth can make big differences. Keep repeating your message. It is IMPORTANT!
I think that we have had exchanges on this subject in the past. I live in a rural community that has seen a return to a smaller market economy, barter and interdependence over the last decade. We have all felt the economic pinch as fuel prices have soared but many of us are organic growers with strong beliefs in sustainability. Some of us had a meeting last week to discuss how we could handle and survive a complete financial collapse in the US. We are few, but I have immense faith in all of us. We know what to do.
My children and grandchildren live mostly in suburban/urban areas but you could eat from their yards. Vegetable gardens, fruit and nut trees, berries, grapes etc. are growing instead of grass. We are all members of "Eat The View." They eat seasonally and buy locally as much as possible.
We are small groups but we are growing and there are more of us every day. I have worries about the future of my country but I believe that my family and my community will survive and become even stronger. Things are changing here and they MUST change.
I always read your posts. Please keep posting your links and sharing you ideas.
We will survive together or die alone!
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NYtimes not a legitimate news source - McCain camp.
Only believe what McCain says. He knows it all.
And with Palin, to whom the Almighty Himself talks, How can McCain be misleading or a liar? Not a chance. You all are liars, the media are liars, the world is a liar. BUT
JOHNNY BOY is not a liar. He is a maverick!
New York Times is not, i repeat, it is NOT, a legitimate NEWS source.
Have the McCain people finally lost their minds?
Hey JohnAAA, why aren't you boasting about those McCain polls anymore?
Come on, you chum, aren't you feeling the spirit of victory? or ignorance?
I am waiting to hear your IRRATIONAL thoughts on McCain!
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A little Christian charity to a good cause. Anyone is allowed to contribute, and very small sums will go a long way - in both senses of the phrase.
http://tinyurl.com/4fqcf9
Maybe Barack Obama might chip in ?
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Re 172,
Regular - it is not often I am moved by this blog. But thank you; I don't think I am overstating it when I say that I found your post inspirational.
I only hope that if that if that happens I have your hope and strength and capability to learn.
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#177
John,
Not true. IfI have commented on your posts being insubstantial and unsupported, no more no less.
Regarding spend, as currently independently costed McCain would $5tr to the deficit, Obama $3tr. both are irresponsible, Obama about 60% as irresponsible as McCain.
Mathematician Sam
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178
Sam
Yes - why should banks who made bad judgments not be hit at the equity level ?
I liken it a bit to a company that gets in deep financial trouble - a manufacturer, say. Its bondholders typically demand a wipeout of prior equity to take on the insupportable burden.
I don't think HSBOS was stuffed to the gills with junk sub-prime mortgages in the way that some of the US entities appear to have been. The amount of foreclosure or repossessions in the UK housing market is nothing like as stark as has been happening in the US - with many people simply walking away from their mortgages, whether they could afford the repayments or not..
But HSBOS were exposed to a lot of doubtful deals - joint ventures with the UK housiebuilding companies on new developments, for example. The extent of this exposure might have been sustainable - but not in the current perfect storm.
Result in this case - Lloyds buys HBOS at a deep discount to what the shares had been trading at, HBOS shareholders suffer their level due, the market works its way through in the normal way. Some jobs will be lost, and the combined Lloyds / HBOS group now has too dominant a proportion of the UK market (which will require legislation to allow) - but capitalism has delivered a reasonably sound result.
Paulson's actions appear to have been forced by the serious and pretty appalling risk of total drying-up of normal credit markets, which would have hit the "real" economy. So some sort of package can be justified to avoid the sort of downturn in the whole economy that the Japanese went through.
What appears to be on offer is the taxpayer taking on what is essentially a blind risk - with no real pain for the shareholders of the companies involved.
I am therefore encouraged that some voices on the right are also raising these doubts. Right now the taxpayer looks like buying a pig-in-a-poke - being royally screwed.
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Goleooo, with your smooth way with words, have you ever persuaded anyone over to your point oview?
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As you all know Obama has been moving up steadily the last few days. It looks like Obama's plan to keep quiet about Palin and let her implode is working.
If McCain's idea was to corral women he was dead wrong. Palin is not our vision of ourselves. And if his idea was to turn men on, men may not like to associate the bedroom with the Oval Office.
I get lots of sleazy Obama smears in my e-mail. That is something else that is probably counterproductive. So smears don't work and vulgar female moose-hunters don't work. What will McCain try next that won't work?
Maybe JohnAAA will tell us.
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Something I never thought about before....
Although I get Obama smears in my e-mail I don't get any for McCain. That tells me that McCain's pals are very busy and Obama's are not. Not that virtue will win an election, but it would be nice.
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184, Johnny.
Actually we don't need the sleaze e-mail, when we have you. Congratulations, you have walked in the muck once again.
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183, galeooo.
So Johnny doesn't feel The New York Times is a valid news source. How about the National Enquirer? I notice that McCain has not sued them as he said he would. Is it because he would lose and lots of unsavory news would be headlined in the more conservative newspapers (The invalid New York Times, for instance)?
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186 Sam
I was talking about the past expenditure voting records of Obama and McCain.
You quote what they are now promising. If you believe what politicians promise - I am surprised.
And yes - Obama is a politician, no more, no less.
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allmymarbles
I disapprove of smears from either side. And the Internet has magnified the volume and speed-of-spread of smears
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The only assumption I can make when I read the claims made by Republicans who refuse to give credit to the Clinton Administration for balancing the budget and producing surpluses is that we must all be suffering from a case of severe collective amnesia.
The Republican majority in the Clinton years accused Clinton of fraising taxes and reckless reductions in the size of government. When his strategy produced the first surpluses in decades, Republicans suggested they were the result of Alan Greenspan's stewardship at the Fed. When it became convenient to blame Greenspan for the huge deficits in the Bush II era, the credit for the surpluses shifted to the Republican majority in Congress that condemned Clinton's economic agenda in the first place; and when it became apparent that the same Republican majority that was taking credit for what Clinton did must have fallen asleep at the wheel during the first six years of the Bush II years, the explanation for the surpluses shifted to a budget determination criteria inconsistent with what the OMB uses to determine deficits and surpluses.
The fact is that the massive increases in military spending proposed by Bush II outweighed the domestic cuts he made, and the tax cuts that benefited mostly the wealthiest Americans predictably eliminated the surplus and created record deficits.
Add the interest we pay on our ballooning national debt, which has doubled the past 7.5 years, and the result is the fiscal mess we have today.
What is truly scary, and does not appear in the Bush II budgets, is what he calls "emergency spending", out of control borrowing, and growing unfunded liabilities, to the tune of $53 trillion. Any guesses on how much longer the Chinese will continue to fund our largesse?
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sean,
I am not here to persuade anyone. You shouldn't be persuaded by me about this election but by those who are running for office.
As a matter of fact the people who write in here, either can't vote, or already made their minds and there is no chance in the wide world that they will change their minds.
What have you got against a bit of humor, eh?
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#168. seanspa "What we do believe we have found is that David Axelrod's firm has worked with the voice over artist . . . This reads to me that they have most definitely not come to the conclusion that Axelrod has nothing to do with it."
That may well be, but it isn't the Obama Campaign as JohnAAA had stated, and to which my response was made. What an individual may do on his own time - and with his own resources - is very much different to what a campaign might do. JohnAAA confused the two, probably deliberately so in order to show the Obama Campaign in as bad a light as possible.
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christian charity? John you make me laugh.
To do what exactly? Start a bordello? or create a new child pornography network?
I think Ghandi's quotes must be refreshed now and than.
" I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ"
hmmmm...yea like the ones who ALWAYS need more money.
John if you haven't noticed, a lot of people christian or not have chipped in to bring Obama to this point. That's charity for a good cause. The cause is SAVING A COUNTRY!
why don't you go back and pray some more. P.S. pray for a bit enlightenment if God can spare some for you.
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"How Obama lost me"
Ann Althouse's son states why the edge has gone off his previously stauch and total support for Obama.
I am intrigued by Point 5. It gives the lie to the idea that the Palin selection was completely unexpected - and suggests that TeamObama was rmiss in not being prpared for it.
Ann Althouse herself had spotted Palin as a possible back in mid-summer, others had also seen that possibility - and Bill Kristol, as a lead writer on the right and a regular commentator on TV, had been pluggin her case for a long time.
http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-obama-lost-me.html
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Marbles,
at this point McCain is willing to fire and sue everyone! EVERYONE!
The man is loosing his mind.
The debates are going to consume him completely. IN panic either he will faint or fall so quickly that for generations he will be remembered as the "despised maverick"
P.S.
when McCain says the word VICTORY, it reminds me a PYRRHIC Victory!
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194, Johnny.
"I disapprove of smears from either side."
No kidding. Then why do you invoke it? (See #184)
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galeeoso - humour ?
A contradiction in terms, I'd have thought. Just a load of ad hominem venom towards other posters is all I see - unless they support the same side.
(Horselaughs off)
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To#172Regularjosephina
I was raised the same way and tried to do so with my own children and grandchildren. I still can vegetables, bake bread, dry fruits etc. There are more of us out there than any of us know. We can also feed ourselves and others.
I have faith that we will all survive and be stronger and better from learning what is really important.
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"Foreigners thinking (hoping?) that it is all over this time for the US and its global leadership will likely not be as disappointed as they always have been in the past as this Brit points out."
No offense Justin, but we didn't need a stock marcket earth quake to tell us that the US's power and leadership in the world is rapidly waneing. My question, however, is what inspuration can we perhaps draw from China, seeing as it looks as if for at least the next 2 decades or so we will continue to be the world's super power. It seems many foreigners lothe our leadership (as this post clearly points out) and are very content that our leadership is at long last beginning to seriously come to an end. So what ideas/policies can we "borrow" so to speek, from the Chinese to help improve our image as we slowely and painfully decline? Can someone please answer that?
Garry A Hill #162: Yeah, because the New York Times is the only US paper with worthy cross words! Not one other paper has a half sutable one. Come now, you honestly believe this? Please explain.
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To#185Polyvodka
You actually read Regularjosephina's post and got the message so I am sure that you can and will learn, if you must. I, also, hope that it will not come to be so harsh.
Perhaps, this is a wake up call for people to stop so much consumerism and to focus on what really matters to them such as family, community and spending time together.
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#172. regular_josephina: "I'm glad my grandmother taught me how to survive on nothing. Looks like those skills will come in handy. I can make sourdough bread for 10 cents a loaf, and can my own peaches, tomatoes, etc. As long as I can harvest my teeny garden, my family won't starve."
I think the same would go for those of us who lived through World War II in Britain, together with its aftermath. Rationing was not completely abolished there until 1954. My father taught me to garden and my mother taught me to cook. We have all become far too dependent on 'fast-food' and 'take-out' and no doubt many younger folk just will not be prepared for the worst should it ever happen. I see that in the UK, cooking classes will become compulsory in secondary education, for both male and female students. Not before time; it's not as if cooking is rocket science!
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There's nothing wrong with humour, or even humor. It's always funny when it's clear that people comment on links without actually reading them. Did you read about the whip-round for Obama's brother, Goleooo?
David, I would have said that given Axelrod's position in Obama's campaign, anything done by or on behalf of Axelrod IS done by the campaign. You obviously see it differently - but at least you read the article. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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The press have had a field day with palin (and anyone who claims the NYT is not 150% in the tank for Obama needs their eyes tested)
Here is a crisp list of 10 questions outfits like the NYT might ask of Obama :
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2574
or short-form -
http://tinyurl.com/3jgkad
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ToPollyvodka
I do not know if you are interested but you could check out a web site: "Eat The View." It gives simple things that anyone can do to change our environment even if you live in a city.
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Finally, some opposition to the issues of no oversight and maintaining executive compensation
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...
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I don't pray. I am not religious.
That does not mean I question the belief of many others in the concept of Christian charity.
And it does seem a bit odd to me that a candidate who preaches about "to the least of my brothers" should somehow neglect his own.
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Regarding the financial termoyal, the absolute worst domestic decision this nation ever made and the largest contributer to the current crisis that we are in right now is in my opinion the repealing of the Glass Steagel act of 1933, repealed in 1999. That act effectively made it illeagle for investment banks and retail banks to murger. But now since it has been repealed, banks have been allowed to grow and grow, until there are just a few huge corperations, of which all the other banks's fortions and futures are inextricably wrapped up in. So that when the big banks hit rough waters or fail, so to do the smaller ones, and hence our current mess today. I'd like to have a personal chat with the briliant person/people who's idea it was to repeal this act in the first place I tell you that!!!!
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johnAAA, do you know any good oculists?
p.s.
thanks for putting that very disturbing image of a horselaugh in the back of my mind.
I had heard of certain people who make themselves laugh, but never believed it until I read your comment.
Well done!
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"179. At 9:21pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Christopher Hitchens being nasty and cutting. That's a change !
But he asks again - what iphrases can anyone remember from his "imperishable" sppeches
Obama should be ahead by a country mile. He isn't."
He is winning though.
Are we going to see your evidence he "consorted with terrorists"?
Or are we going to have to attribute this to your real agenda.
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"208. At 11:58pm on 22 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
The press have had a field day with palin (and anyone who claims the NYT is not 150% in the tank for Obama needs their eyes tested)"
Oh dear lost the NYT, pretty serious for camp McCain
"Here is a crisp list of 10 questions outfits like the NYT might ask of Obama :
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2574"
But they won't so Obama wins again
or short-form -
The man is amasterful campaigner as some of us said. he has timed is run perfectly.
Pity about palin though, reduced to exagerating her crowd numbers and tryng to avoid the law and the press.
Entertaining, but not pretty.
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208, Johnny.
Not just the presss, but everybody, has had a field day with Palin. Never during my lifetime has such a low-down, laughable candidate for high office been nominated.
I was at a party yesterday when her name came up. Much laughter and a wild discussion of her attributes (none of them flattering, and most of them funny). A wonderful time was had by all. I have to thank the esteemed vice-presidential candidate for livening up our party.
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211, Johnny.
You speak with forked tongue. Nobody in this world can be expected to support a tribe of half-siblings that one may have met once or twice and was never brought up with. And you know it.
So don't pull a sanctimonious Joe Liberman on us. We know you. You are just promoting another smear.
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Proceed with caution
You have been warned!God(s) help us! (please)
ed
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Outrage Over $2.5 Billion Bonus For Lehman Brothers New York Staff
Well, well, well, whaddya know!;-)
ed
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Dirty Secret Of The Bailout: Thirty-Two Words That None Dare Utter
As I said, You have been warned!Caveat Emptor
ed
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To#218Edinglehart
Yes! Please all the gods help us!
I think you are correct about not letting this or any government have that much power. Sometimes I think we should just let the whole house of cards fail and then start over but so many people would suffer.
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Palin Agrees To Help With Palin Administration Investigation Of Palin Administration
Plus ca change!;-)
ed
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#187
Amen to that.
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Naomi Klein
We have been warned!Now is the Time to Resist Wall Street's Shock Doctrine
Frightened ed
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Further to the caveats
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BTW,
Did anyone notice that John McCain chose three guys to be part of an oversight panel who would be independent? Buffet, Bloomsberg and Romney, all guys heavily invested in the market? This is hilarious. Foxes, hen house.
To be fair all of these guys would probably turn it down as an ethical conflict given how many conflicts of interest with their personal portfolios it would cause.
Not that it is a bad idea, the trouble is finding 3 or 4 totally independent individuals who have the expertise to help manage the financial markets, no investments to influence them and high standards of ethics and integrity.
Do such people exist?
Ethical Sam
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and you were mildly amused when i suggested our Federal Government should relocate to Kansas as far away from Wall Street as possible. I may dream in color, but I feel well grounded when i say the business of our government should not be gambling.
I'm glad to see some on this blog counsel caution. We are here now because sirens and red flags were ignored.
We are at a crossroads. We still have a chance to act with intelligence and forethought.
b
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No. 220 Ed
Ed,
I wrote both my Congressman telling them what I thought about the thirty-two words in Section 8.
They've heard from me a lot lately.
Thanks,
b
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#193,
We can only follow what they promise ahead. If we look at the numbers for the past 4 years poor Johnny boy is now $6tr in the red, and rising every day. Compared to Obama. Heck, if we had that money the liquidity crisis may never have happened.
Poor Sam
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#218, 221
That would be absolutely insane. I am with you brother, sister.
Amen
Pious Sam
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#211
John,
Pathetic, and nasty.
Kindly post names and addresses of all of your kin, including half blood, their income, employment status and charitable contributions so that we can examine your record and that post deserves consideration. This must include all pensioners, relatives with criminal records and the result of any sexual congress, whether given to term or not.
This should also include charitable donations, time donated of your entore immediate family. You must also include living conditions, personal efforts, history of rehabitation and any religious affiliation of any person with any charitable receipt.
As Jesus said 'He who is without . . .'
Having done this you will have established the moral high ground to support a post such as 211.
So pony up. Or backoff. That post was possibly the nastiest we have seen on this web site.
Sleep well,
Disgusted Sam
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To#42Markfromoxford
Can I vote for you? If you do not want to be president would you at least like to run for senate?
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231, Sam.
I have never understood Johnny's vehemence. But he has gone beyond that to misrepesentation and sheer nastiness. Does he have a vested interest in the election, or he just sameone who has to have an object for a hateful personality?
The one good thing about him is that the more bile he spills, the more people will vote for Obama. I hope he continues to write.
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#233Allmymarbles
I do not understand this either. I still say that he has money involved somewhere. He has denied it but I can not believe it!
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Sorry, tech posting probs - test msg
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218, Ed.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It had slipped pass me. The president has too much power already.
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23
That post, Sam, was round the twist.
Lots of false indignation.
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Bill Tyrone
Beware of ampersands!
They (&) are the usual reason for posts failing on these BBC blogs. If you use a text editor's search & replace facility and replace all & with & (semicolon essential), your post will likely sail through...
Do keep posting, as you are a ray of light in the darkness
Peace
ed
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I wonder if Paulson, Bernanke & colleagues will finally realise it's dangerous to fight an electrical fire with water?
And Sterling is following it down. Actually both have been seriously overvalued for a long time.Dollar hit
;-)
ed
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Justin, you are so on the mark.
Americans could get out of debt, but according to my economics prof. way back when said, it ain't gonna happen!
Both candidates best watch what they do and say and to whom, because they are just temporary. All the rest of the good-ole-boys on the hill is so ingrained,Terminx couldn't get rid of them
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It's true that far too many Americans are addicted to debt. One of the side-effects of our successful capitalist culture is that we expect to get things too quickly and easily, and with minimal consequence. Our grandparents understood sacrifice and scrimping and saving, but it's a lesson yet to be learned by the vast majority of our current generation(s).
As a yank who has lived overseas for 23 of the last 24 years, I find it sad how much misunderstanding there is between the USA and its "friends" who laugh anytime we have difficulties. I keep hearing from Europeans (in particular) who hope for the US to fail and fall from grace. They are tired of America being the economic engine, but don't have the resources or the resolve to take up the position themselves. They rail about the USA being self-designated "world police", but no one else has the ability to do anything but pass or propose toothless sanctions against despots and nuclear rogues. Too many Brits and Europeans assume that the fact that they import so many of our movies and TV shows gives them deep and insightful knowledge into the character of our nation and its people. Everything you see in the media, movies, etc. is always focused on the outrageous and exaggerated aspect of character and culture, not the norm... the fringes of a culture are not the best way to assess the center. Had I assumed that the average Englishman was like the twits depicted by Monty Python and so many other British films and TV shows I saw as a youngster, I never would have been willing to live there, as I did for 5 years. Having lived so long overseas, I have discovered that people are fundamentally the same, no matter how much they may want to emphasize minute differences on peripheral matters.
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I have observed some of the presentations of the two candidates in this election RUSE and I just can't grasp Obama's economic "change."
Does he explain where he plans to get the money to do all he says he is planning to do?
The first thing he plans is to cut taxes...........so where is the money coming from? Is the house or senate going to pay for it????????
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#237
John,
I was very tired and had been at a long dinner. I apologize. I should have said simply that that was the lowest, scummiest post I've seen on this blog and you should ashamed of yourself. Unless you are John McCain in which case it was a mild improvement on some of your ads.
And left it at that.
Apologetic Sam
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For all those people trying to blame JUST the Republicans, will you please do a little background research before pointing fingers? The Glass-Steagall Act was overturned in 1998 by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, pushed by the Republicans, supported by Democrats, and signed into law by President Clinton. And for all the wind coming from Chris Dodd, he assumed the chair of the Senate Banking Committee in January 2007; shouldn't that have been enough time for him to see the troubles coming? Not to mention his direct involvement with both Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and the subprime mortgage lender Countrywide Financial.
And how true, we Americans as a society are addicted to debt. And again, this culture of debt has been perpetrated by BOTH parties. Both are responsible for the crisis since members of these parties have been running our country. There is plenty of blame to go around and they should all be held accountable. But accountability must also be placed on those individual ex-homeowners who thought they were getting some kind of great deal. Everyone is responsible and now we all, unfortunately, must pay for the "me first" attitude.
Very few of our federal representatives are doing their job to protect the American people. As for the current presidential race, both have been running on tone and lacking in policy. They are playing on emotions rather than real policy, and instead of holding our potential leaders to a high standard, we, the American public, are letting it all happen. And instead of strengthening ourselves we are pointing fingers at each other. It's quite a sad day.
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we've become "tone deaf" here in America when it comes to politicians speaking. every time their lips move, they're telling lies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
youtube.com/goldieshome
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Being a resident of NY State, I totally support Obama and hope that he'll be the one to finally take our country in a new direction, but I fear that his chances are actually rather small.
When all is said and done and the white voters are in the voting booth, they won't care about the economy, nominations to the Supreme Court, getting rid of the Electoral College, or any of the other important issues such as McCain's health or choice of a Vice President or the terrible mistakes made in Iraq. The primary factor will be the fear of retribution from a black man for past treatment of blacks if we put him in the White House. It makes no sense to support a 'ticket' with Palin as VP because of her lack of experience (and her arrogance), but her face is white and that's what will make the Christian Right (and many others) support McCain. The total hypocrisy is articulated beautifully by Anna Quindlen in her Newsweek article "Can You Say 'Sexist'?", although she doesn't address 'skin color'. My point is simply that skin color is still the "elephant in the living room" that very few people are willing to acknowledge is there.
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Justin:
You are correct; winning on tone and not on policy.
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