The Palin pregnancy
The news of Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy is gut-wrenching for Republicans. After a gulp or two, and the evangelical equivalent of a stiff drink, it certainly will not affect their affections for this vice-presidential candidate among social conservatives (she is, after all, doing the right thing in socially conservative circles by not having an abortion).
And the fact is that her situation is not unusual in America, but it must lead to mutterings in the country club set about the direction the McCain camp is taking the party: into the unknown.
UPDATE: I have just been on the convention floor in the moments before it began and I think this piece has it about right in terms of early reaction: I talked to a handful of people, all of whom said it was a private family matter. Plenty more listened in and did not seek to diffeR.
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America is one country where the truth sets you free. It is best to confess it and you had better confess it right the first time and in full for someone is going to dig it up and embarrass you tomorrow - the press and papparatzi.
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To me this is an indication of what a divided country I am living in. To me and all of my acquaintances, this revelation would be nothing but a fiasco, but I agree that the social conservatives will applaud Mrs. Palin for her stance. Incredible.
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Sorry, but I actually laughed out loud. The breathtaking hypocrisy of politicians both sides of the pond never ceases to amaze me. If you tub thump the evangelical right wing conservative drum you have to be whiter than white - and in US politics, that includes your family too. A real gift to Obama - surely now a shoe - in for the presidency?
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Justin - you suggested two options. That she was the saviour of the McCain campaign or that she would implode. The answer must be implode.
McCain must have made this pick on his own. After all these years in high-level politics he really (to quote) doesn't get it.
You see people like Palin time and again in local and national politics. They come bursting on the scene- all excited by their own self-importance - and they cry "hello, I'm here, look at me" And then, as it begins to sink in how complex the whole business of administration is - the economics, the balancing of the various factions, the events that appear out of nowhere, not to mention the people who have been using them for their own ends - and they gradually get quieter and quieter.
We have seen these people - but McCain was totally irresponsible to pluck someone out of Alaska to tickle his campaign.
He is locked in with this lady. But she is not necessarily locked in with him. She can simply say that the pressure on her family is more than she can tolerate - and withdraw.
If she carries on, after the exposure of her political inconsistencies and dubious exercise of some of her Alaskan power, she will do a lot of damage to the Republican party - and even more damage to her own family of young children.
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It is great that Bristol is not aborting her unborn child. What about abstinence before marriage? Not so important as life (however defined) I guess!
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Don't know if any of the pre-moderated comments above have touched on this, but more praise should be given to Barack Obama's comments when asked to react to the news of Palin's daughter.
He really inspires a new confidence in me regarding politicians. For the sake of the future, I sincerely hope he wins the presidency.
I believe.
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I am amazed that Mccain selected her despite knowing about the pregnancy. This has to be the ultimate gamble. Or was he not aware?Did she conceal it from him?
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Sarah Pallin's decision to handle her daughter's pegnancy within the family is her choice, but why then does she want to deny the rest of American women the same choice, namely that everyone should have the right to make his or her family decisions privately and relate to his or her own faith?
She would have women who choose other than how she thinks go to prison. She's a prime example of hypocrosy. I only hope women see through this and support their own freedom.
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The ABC Newsblog mentions that "in an AP/Ipsos poll last October, Americans divided on the best way to reduce teenage pregnancy. Fifty-one percent said it was by “emphasizing sex education and birth control”, forty percent, “by emphasizing morality and abstinence”.
It is clear that Mrs Palin failed in both of those - she can't educate her own daughter and yet she would impose her views on the rest of America.
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Economist123 is touchier than someone who's spent 12 hours under a tropical sun with zero sunscreen!
One thing about propoganda: it's never that subtle.
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Webb. What utter nonsense you write. And you get paid for this garbage?
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I have just read the immoderate post from someone calling himself Economist 123.
Has he ever read the comments on this blog ? They cover every corner of every mindset. And since Obama's speech alone there have been 1238 of them.
Economist shows his ignorance. Is he a banker, a hedge fund ooperator, a mortgage loan executive, or maybe an analyst ? Anyway, his attitude explains why we are in financial trouble.
Whatever ....... his kneejerk abuse of the BBC is symptomatic of only one political view in the UK and if he thought a little more and followed a little of the debate he
might learn something.
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# 4 Marcus A
Yes, Obama supporters can identify.
Indeed Obama said today "my mother had me when she was 18 - so please lay off all this."
There are some rude music hall jokes which all end with something to the effect of ....anker. You need to learn them
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"And the fact is that her situation is not unusual in America"
Right you are we're just dropping babies left and right, in the gutters and streets of America.
Or were you speaking of the VP selection, a parent faced with the prospect of becoming a grandparent before the age of 50?
It will affect people in the US view both, regardless of the outcome, and we'll be rid of the failed policies of the republicans to be replaced by another set of amateurs for 4 years.
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Webb's comments are pretty astute and not bias. Palin is the worst VP pick in the history of the US. She has a bachelor's from U of Idaho and she has been in office for 18 months. Her only "accomplishment" of record is having a 5th baby with Downs Syndrome-Republican words, not mine. This shows McCain's judgement if awful. Of course they have to say now that they knew her daughter was pregnant even though they did not. Now the parents are probably forcing the daughter to get married. Palin is under investigation as well for abuse of power. What else are they going to find? Horrible, Horrible choice.
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Justin:
why arem't you blogging about how the republicans are using their convention to fund raise for Gustav?
And why former Dan Fowler said it would be good for huricane to hit NO to disrupt the convention?
Not tomention hate mongers Obermann and Michael moore
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In a somewhat crude caricature of the Reps, one of my American relatives, who is that very rare beast in the USA, a gen-u-ine socialist, tells me that the Reps are the American 'nasty' party ala our own dear Tories.
That is, venal, selfish war-mongers who give tax breaks to their rich chums.
So, if the Reps are taking on board a poor unmarried (as yet) teen-age mom, does'nt that send out a different message to the Americans proles?
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I enjoy Justin's blogs for their insight and their wit and I appreciate the professionalism and balance he exhibits, so when I see rabid comments such as those of someone like the otherwise anonymous Economist123 - number two in this unsurprisingly heavily moderated blog - it makes me wonder if we can trust anyone from the right to vote for the better person.
We are faced with more of the same from McCain or into new and uncharted territory with Obama. This must surely be one of those rare occasions where fear of the known should surely outweigh that of the alternative.
When the USA elected W Bush for the second time it confirmed to me that this is a nation that is deliriously happy not to learn from any of its mistakes. Heck! With their track record they'll be happy to vote for a candidate who believes in every daft idea ever conceived by the religious right wing's biggest nuts.
The world rather needs Obama, but the majority of Americans are, I fear, just weird and bitter enough to give the Republicans another few years in the rumpus room.
Anyway, Economist123 should perhaps learn the difference between appreciating good copy for its quality and whooping for it because it ties in with his own somewhat blinkered view of things. Perhaps we could have Obama for Prime Minister.
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So what? Politian’s have families? Can somebody report on the things that matter such as McCain’s foreign and economic policy. Please bbc stop lowering yourselves.
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There was a time when people didn't announce children out of wedlock, especially for 17 year old girls who presumably live at home. So much for traditional values the Republicans mistakenly believe belongs to them. I wish Palin's family the best. I assume the birth will endure Ms. Palin to the GOP, probably because she does not believe in teaching or giving birth control to sexually active teenagers either—let alone anyone. Republicans have designed failed abstinence programs, particularly with our international AIDS' programs, and the policies clearly need to change. The Republicans have no lock on morality, although they'll probably try and make the claim.
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Saw your "performance" on the Six o'Clock news tonight. Fantastic to note you continue to lose no opportunity to do the odious Republicans down and promote the right on Democrats, as you have for seemingly weeks now.
Alastair Cooke must be turning in his grave.
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Palin's family needs her to be there as a mother and grandmother. She's only 44. She has 30 years to be a "public servant", but the next decade is going to be very crucial for her family.
I find it shocking that Palin would put her own ambitions ahead of what's best for her family. What does she plan to do with all of these children, drag them to Washington D.C. with her? Leave them in Alaska while she's living 10,000 miles away??
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The Republican dance at the convention should now be "The Bristol Stomp!"
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What does pre-moderated mean?
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After all the rumors during this past weekend, this just seems to be a cover up. I hope they don't tell the media to leave her alone but go on to try and use her as a pro-life prop. I don't think it will get to that because Palin is probably going to pull out of this election.
McCain has just show his poor judgment and it has to be noted that the issue is Palin's ability. This story involves her daughter but it should not mean Palin cannot be questioned even about the original rumor. I hope they didn't think they could bury it in Gustav and use Bristol as a human shield after.
American are good at building barriers to avoid answering questions. McCain has been POWing everything that's too tough away from him.
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It means you guys are better than the KGB>
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This is a crucial, national and international time to focus on the values, beliefs, and intentions of candidates in the USA presidential election.
The new candidate D beliefs include:
1. anti- abortion (has chosen to encourage her daughter to marry at 16 as an unwed pregnant teenager, has chosen to give birth to a child with a mental syndrome),
2. gay couples should be denied health rights provided to other couples,
3. creationism, a religious view, should be taught in schools (not sure what age she thinks this should be done)
4. doesn't believe that global warming is taking place.
Personally, as a gay man, with a PhD, a 17 year relationship, a professor, psychologist, and business owner, I have different views than this candidate D. I would hope mine are more inclusive, empowering, supportive for all Americans.
Yes, I am religious, respectful of women in their yet to be achieved status as equals, and am empathetic with the life altering choice that young unwed and wed couples make who have children, and as an eagel scout, I have long honored our environment and recognize the overwhelming support for the global warming condition we are facing.
I cannot vote for candidate D -- Sarah, but then I cannot vote for John -- both believe what I do not and are so sure of themselves that other ideas are wrong.
I believe in the change that Barack represents and will achieve.
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Is it too much to hope that the husband-to-be of this young lady has the surname "Rovers"?
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#2, Economist123, I have to differ with you
on Justin's bias. I think that if or when
something like this intrudes into the Obama/Biden
campaign, he will report it as well.
This incident will blow over fairly quickly,
and then it will be back to politics as usual.
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I think its a new strategy to find a VP who covers most every demographic McCain does not. How large is the unwed mother demographic?
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Oh dear! What next? And her husband was arrested for DUI? McCain should have left this family alone rather then put them in the spotlight like this. And how can a mother with children still growing up be a VP? The fact that she accepted this knowing what she knows about herself and her family, - that also tells something about her judgement. I have a feeling we are going to see more things that are unsettling - hopefully this whole movement will be short lived.
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wanderingangus08.58 - fantastic description of Gordon Brown in your third paragraph.
wanderingangus09.08 - good to note your moderate opinion of Economist123. Hell hath no fury like a "liberal" if you do not agree with him!
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As a former USA resident I think the Republicans have played a blinder here.
If Sarah Palin can maintain the level of her initial speech she will get McCain to the Presidency.
She does so appeal - Oh, yes - has admin experience, hunts, shoots and fishes, manages a family. 80% approval rating from Alaska as Gov,
OK problems with daughter but what family has not had similar problems? This should not affect her chances.
Experience? What experience has Obama had? And his wife is truly scary.
I would be quite happy to have Sarah Palin a heartbeat from the Presidency (remember Margaret Thatcher) she might just rise to the occasion
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I don't have anything against social conservatives. They are afterall only one of many groups with flawed political and social ideologies. What I can't understand is how McCain could have chosen Mrs Palin. You only need to take a glance at her to realise that she is a wishy washy conservative with a truck full of skeleton in her cupboard. Hollywood must already be qeueing up for the right to the Palin movie. Whatever happened to the strong family values.
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Can't say that I am surprised that the republicans at the RNC chose not to speak on this subject calling it a "family matter". But the republicans surely didn't feel that way about Bill Clinton in the 90's and his umm.. "family matter".. If Palin cared enough about her family, their privacy and all of her lies then she never should have accepted the nomination. Like it or not, (and I truly hate it for them) her family and friends are fair game!! Just like all the endangered animals in Alaska that Palin has given the okay for aerial hunting, all I can say is -its open season!!
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Ed,
You put the hex on the moderators!
Sad Sam
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My heart is with Bristol.
My head is trying to understand McCain
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#29, libiure, I have it on good authority
that the DC area is a fine place to bring
up young ones.
And, besides, there is always robonanny.
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Palin's views on abortion, even in the case of rape or incest aswell has her views on contraception and IVF will hopefully get full exposure. Add to this her lack of experience, the ongoing "troopergate" affair and her flip-flop on her only "great" achievement -the "bridge to nowhere." She was for the bridge before she was against it.
She only got a passport last year. How will she deal with the Russians, Iranians and all the other global problems? What about AIDs in Africa and the use of condoms?
Does she even know anything about the rest of the world? She probably thinks it's flat. After all she thinks the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.
As for global warming, I don't know if Gustav, Hanna and Ike have anything to do with man-made carbon emissions, but it will open up the debate again.
Many of the Independents and moderate socially liberal Republicans who like McCain will be mystified at his choice of VP. Do they really want to risk letting this woman be a heartbeat away from the Presidency?
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#38, McCain was simply trying to close
the gap with "inexperienced under-50 year olds."
The Dems have their inexperienced under-50
candidate, now the Republicans have theirs.
The unwed mother demographic
is still up for grabs. McCain should find
a way to lower the voting age to 16 if
he wants to open up a new voting bloc.
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Unless her daughter is being pressured into an unwise marriage or was pressured into not having an abortion these are family matters.
Palin's views in favour of teaching creationism are something else, though. I know Americans are a bit strange on this but even so it must say something alarming about her judgement. Does she think flat-earth theories should have equal prominence, too?
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In response to a request for a statement, Mr. Obama took the higher road and said that this pregnancy has no relationship to Mrs Palin's ability to govern.
Contrast that wonderful response to the emesis spouted by "Economist123". For the record, thank you Matt, Justin and all the BBC correspondents. You do a fantastic job and your writings are a delight to read.
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3 thoughts:
1) Did she know that her daughter was pregnant before she got the vice presidency and choose to keep it to herself? She must have been tempted. Once she was nominated there was no way they would ever sack her,
2) If McCain did know, why did he go with her? Surely another VP would have been more sensible..... if the rumour about her youngest kid turn out to be true it will all be over for him
3) What does this say about their 'value' of marriage? at 17 they appear to be insisting that they marry.... seems like a mistake to me. I certainly was ready for marriage and fatherhood at 17 ... never mind being constantly in the public eye - which they wil be after this
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I see a number of people have attacked my position. That's fair enough. And I do not doubt that the comment section of this forum does cover all points of view. My point of attack was solely on the BBC, and not the commentators. The BBC are suppossed to present news fairly and balanced. All of last week we had non stop pro Democrat reporting. This week, it's suppossed to be the Republican turn, and already we've got Webb attacking Palin and digging up the negatives. All from his biased viewpoint, which sits left of centre.
Lets take the evidence:
Firstly he attacked Palin over her viewpoint on creationalism. this is a complete non issue. The different between the right and the left is that while both hold views on issues, the left aim to impose them on the population when in power. The right belives, in contrast, on letting individuals have power to determine their own outcomes. Hence whatever the right might believe in, they won't force it onto others. Hence believing in creationism is a non-story. Yet Webb thought he could attack with it.
Also, I've not seen any stories from Webb about the noise being created on the blogosphere about Obama's links with William Ayers, a known terrorist from a far left group in the US known as the Weatherman. Surely Webb, if a first rate journalist, should be investigating this story and be rushing to be the first to out it. I'm sure America would want to know Obama's links to this individual.
Maybe many viewed my post in a poor light, but I have become intolarant to the bias coming from the BBC regarding this election, on all platforms - radio, tv and online. Obama doesn't bring change, other than hastening in socialism. A failed ideology. Better the devil you know than the one you don't is my opinion on this election. What does Obama really stand for? I could stand on a stage and yell change non-stop. Means nothing without substance.
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I can't agree with the people who are saying
Palin must surely be forcing her daughter into marriage. In the end the daughter is nearly
an adult, and deserves the space an privacy to make the difficult decisions she will have to live with in. I'm sure she knows what her mother thinks, and that that matters, but we can't know quite what is being said in the family. If McCain
knew about the pregnancy , it was pretty crass of him to put a 17 year
old in a position where her actions are so crucial to her mother's chances of being VP. If he didn't, that was just incompetent.
It is of course completely fair to ask Palin how
much freedom she wants to give to other 17 year olds who find themselves in similar situations to her daughter. Her answers will
reveal a lot about how she sees the world and
would act if she ever became president.
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#51, willsmac, you bring up an interesting
point. Now I understand why Alaska has
been lobbying for the flat earth theory to
be taught in schools - it makes that state
much larger on the map.
Perhaps they could even ally with Greenland
on it, and get it passed by the UN.
#54, Economist, I'm going to have to look
into this. However, the Weathermen were
a long time ago, and many W and SDS members
have since become respectable members
of society.
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I think this election will ultimately boil down to the issue of judgment rather than experience. It is baffling that McCain knowing about this painful family situation with Palin even offered her the bottom ticket of the republican party. Is this a private matter? No, not when her stance on abstinence only education is shown to be not only narrow but ineffective as proven by her own daughter's situation.
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I have been a pastor for 33 years and have accompanied many people through rough waters that challenge their faith and character. Without making any political implication, I would affirm that these crises can come to anyone at any time. No one is immune. The most dangerous attitude is thinking that it cannot happen to you. The question for the Palins is not that they have to face this, but how they will face it, especially in the public eye. I strongly affirm Obama's word to the press to back off of the family. Not only is that not relevant to the political questions, it can only make it more difficult for this family to find their way through this difficult time.
Having said that, however, if I were the Palin's pastor, my question would not be about how this family issue might affect the nation, but how taking on the Vice-Presidential responsiblity might affect Bristol, Levi and their baby. Surely, the young people will need all of the unconditional love, support, grace and encouragement they can get. Whether or not Sarah Palin becomes Vice-President or returns to be Governor of Alaska, my pastoral questions for Todd and Sarah Palin would be, "How can you demonstrate to Bristol, Levi and their baby that they are more important than the United States or Alaska?"
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Four years ago in a debate, John Kerry criticized Dick Cheney for the Republican stance on Gay/Lesbian issues when his own daughter is an out Lesbian. The Cheney's were (publicly at least) furious. But it is not the action that is being criticized -most of us couldn't care less. It is the hypocrisy.
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The disappointing thing is that this private family matter should have any bearing on who people choose to vote for at all. Sarah Palin is a very new name to me, but I thoroughly dislike what I know of her so far. However, what has happened to her daughter (or "what her daughter has done") does not reflect on her ability to be vice-President. You can make the argument that it suggests it might not be a good idea to put so much power in the hands of a woman who can't control her daughter. But, firstly, that smacks of glass house-dwelling folk slinging stones when they shouldn't and, secondly, Ms. Palin's daughter is above the age of consent in a good many jurisdictions in the United States and the Western world. What she does with her body is her decision.
Personally, what I have heard so far of Sarah Palin makes me think she's little more than a female Mike Huckabee. Certainly not to my taste. Furthermore, when you've only just taken your first steps out of the politics of a suburb of Anchorage, I doubt you are ready for a position of such responsibility. But this personal family matter really should be irrelevant. Unfortunately, it won't be.
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Guns, Babies and Jesus.
Jeeez.
Does the world really need more of this?
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"Is it too much to hope that the husband-to-be of this young lady has the surname "Rovers"?"
LMAO!!! At least some humour will make the situation seem a little less unbelievable than it really is.
And if his surname isn't Rovers, let's hope it's "Channel" or "Docks".
P.S. It's pretty clear to me that John McCain has made a fundamental mistake in choosing a woman to appeal to the fundamentalist right - who were always going to vote for him - rather than a woman who would appeal to the left. I mean, can anyone explain why a Hillary Clinton supporter (well known left-winger, champion of gay rights, abortion etc.) would suddenly want to vote for McCain because he picked a rootin' tootin' shootin' woman?
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A message to the whining protesters outside ST Paul Convention:
Why don't you to something useful for a change.
While both parties are thinking of Gustav first you are being your usual annoyance.
You are bunch of self indulgent brats, or in the case of Cindy Sheehan and Code Pink you only care about being in the spot light
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There is no way that McCain knew about the pregnancy before he chose her as his running mate. A 44 year old with a 17 year old pregnant daughter on a conservative, family values ticket. I can't see him bouncing back after this.
"Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."
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There is absolutely no comparison between Palin's lack of experience and Senator Obama. She went from PTA to mayor of a small town where she immediately sacked everybody who didn't support her during her run for mayor, to first term governor of one of the smallest state populations in America.
Then she stated in 2006 "If the Pledge of Allegiance was good enough for our Founding Fathers, it's good enough for me" when the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't even written until the 20th century. In fact it wasn't brought in until after McCain's birth (or does she think McCain was born before the American Revolution? Wow, he IS old.)
Economist123's comment about Ayers is ludicrous. Obama was 8 years old when Ayers did what he allegedly did. Does Economist123 allege Obama was running numbers for Ayers at the time?
The choice is pretty clear, a journalist degree versus the editor of the Harvard Law Review. A sports anchor and Miss Congeniality, second runner up in the Miss Alaska contest?
Maybe instead of a debate, they should have Obama shoot hoops with "Sarah Barracuda".
She doesn't believe that global warming is man-made, she believes that creationism should be taught in schools, she opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest, and she is vindictive once she gets into power - as shown when she sacked the police chief and the town librarian who didn't support her run for Mayor. her answer to the energy crisis is drill, drill, drill, economy before environment. Even ANWAR is fair game.
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ohkaaaaaay !
...and how is this abstinence instead of contraception thing working for the Palin family !
But seriously folks, I am so sorry for this poor 17 year old who is being forced to get married, and has become a political pawn.
If only someone had given her birth control advice...oh wait; her mother is against that too.
Way to ruin a life !
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First, teenage pregnancies are common everywhere on the planet. It wasn't that long ago that someone the age of Palin's daughter would have been married for a year or two.
Almost everyone here will see this as a private and personal matter for the Palin family. My sympathies are with Bristol Palin, who surely cannot be happy that her pregnancy has become national news.
Some will try to drive a wedge between the pregnancy and Sarah Palin's stance against any form of birth control: "Well, if your daughter had been on the pill or if the guy had used a condom, this wouldn't have happened!"
That's unfortunate. I disagree vehemently with Palin on that issue, but she has a right to hold it and an even greater right to raise her family as she chooses. That said, teenagers often do not comply with the wishes of their parents.
The problem this poses for the GOP is that it will prompt more questions, and more digging, about what we do not know about Sarah Palin.
More specifically, the problem for McCain is that it is a big distraction. Not only is there nothing going on in St. Paul to fill airtime tonight, everyone will be talking about the Palin kid rather than listening to GOP stalwarts enumerate the wonders of John McCain.
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#61, Midland 20, we could use a few more
guns, but I agree about the other stuff.
#54, HMyles, I don't think that this will
really amount to much with the conservative
base. Every personal setback to Palin is
a chance to show off her beliefs.
As far as appeal to independents and
"lunch-pail" Democrats, I agree
that McCain made a bad pick. However,
a lot depends upon how she speaks in
public. And, besides, how can you attack
a woman?
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Why is it that when all is rosy, the family is wheeled out. When the hypocrisy and stupidity which holds the US back from being a great nation as it is being run by narrow-minded bigots like becomes evident, then the family is private entity..you can't have it both ways
The problem is not just that someone with all their opportunities and possibilities has an underage pregnancy. The tragedy is that it shows the facade that these family values really are. If Americans are ready to swallow this..they´ll get the leaders they deserve..The child (which is what she is) didn't need to be dragged into politics to create an image, but now that it´s been done, you can´t suddenly ask for privacy when you were the one who asked for the limelight. V poor judgement all round!!
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Hypocrisy in action.
In the last election where gay marriage/rights were a divisive wedge issue it was discovered that Dick Cheney’s daughter was lesbian with a life partner. Instead of re-examining their condemnation of gays, and postulating that perhaps the issue was not as simple black and white as it appeared, they declared the issue a “private matter.” They then went on condemning gays, present company excluded all the way to the white house.
How many religious conservatives sweep their sons and daughters under the rug due to perceived flaws in order to keep their own standing in their communities. In the conservative world alcoholics, fatherless children, gays, mentally ill, drug addicts, the un-insured, the deeply impoverished and the like are simply referred to as “private matters.” These “private matters” live in a shadow reality left in the dark to suffer silently while the righteous enjoy “society” as long as they keep their private matters private.
I for one plan to vote for the other party where everyone gets included even if the formula isn’t perfect.
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Mark MBc
I know Obama was only a child when Bill Ayers was up to no good. But Obama has interacted with Ayers as part of a board (Chicago Annenberg Challenge) distributing grants to schools in Chicago - between 1995-2002, no doubt supporting the kinds of things Ayers believes in. I very much doubt Ayers has changed his spots in terms of his core beliefs (Communism), but it would be unfair of me to say he still advocates the approaches he took in the late 60s/70s. It suggests that Obama, whilst not condoning Ayers terrorist past, has sympathies for far left positions. A position which if made widely known, is likely to worry the centre ground of american politics. Yes Obama will bring change - high taxes - socialism relies on it.
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#69, catval, you might as well forget it.
We're not as sophisticated as Europeans,
and you might as well forget about any
kind of cultural evolution happening in
the next few months.
It's a good thing that the 60's happened,
otherwise we wouldn't even have any
good music to play.
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#69 (catval):
Yes, Sarah Palin is in the big time now and has no reason to expect that her privacy will be respected.
But, her children, as Obama said a short time ago, are off limits. The pregancy of an adolescent girl should be attributed to naivete and poor judgment, not to her personal moral failure or her mother's hyprocrisy.
As a v-e-r-y partisan Democrat, I say we need to walk away from this and wish the daughter well.
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ref#65
Senator's Obama experience
Political Hack in Illinois Senate
75% of only Senate term running for President
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Certainly teen pregnancy isn't an unusual occurrence... especially where Abstinence Only prevails. And Ms. Palin has been an outspoken proponent of Abstinence Only "education". which is blindly opposed to birth control or any sort of substantial sex education outside of "just say no".
So, while not a commentary on the Palins as parents, it certainly does throw a cloud over her position as Poster Child for the Abstinence Only crowd. When a study was conducted in Texas, the birthplace so to speak of A.O. (ostensibly to support A.O. as a brilliant leap forward) , it was discovered that teen pregnancies and STD's actually increased substantially since the "plan" had been undertaken.
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Just so we're clear, which campaign has more in common with the Spears' family?
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Isn't it interesting how Republicans always fail to meet the standards they expect so highly from others? The GOP should be glad the Democrats put limits on personal attacks, unlike Karl Rove.
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Juno - life imitates art again!
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I've done a fair bit of reading since Sarah Palin got the nomination and MarkMcBC, seems to have it about right based on what we know so far.
Look on the bright side, though, her apparent narrow-mindedness, hypocrisy and vindictiveness will make life inside the Beltway seem like home from home.
On the other hand, the Washington crowd have been at it for MUCH longer......
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econmist: "creationalism. this is a complete non issue"
if not, how about potentially delusional VP, ignorance of scientific fact, the miseducation of a genaration, are they issues to be completly concerned with?
Creationalism is on par with the church stance on galileo in the 17th century. Is that really where America is heading?
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What a load of rubbish about Sarah Palin's daughter. Who cares? It's a family matter. This has no relevence to her qualifications for VP, which appear to be considerable compared to the opposition.
And as for polar bears and green themes that's a load of rubbish as well. The green lobby is trying to brainwash us all. Climate change, if it exists which I doubt, should not be a mantra for government. The purpose of government is to protect its citizens against war and to deliver basic services, not to pontificate about greenhouse gases and spend loads of taxpayers' money in Africa to the enrichment of local dictators.
Charity begins at home. Forget Africa et al.
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#77, ShNickolas, we don't know yet.
We're not even looking closely at their
driving records yet.
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#23
Magic,
How many quicky speeches to raise money for Gustav victims does it take to balance out the damage done by incompetence after Katrina.
Browny, you are doing a HELL of a job!
Sick Sam
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Frankly, I find the discussions in the BBC and other media about this particular issue quite embarassing if not downright repulsive.
Where to start? Hypocrisy, playing politics with deeply personal questions relating to pregnancy and disability, recyclying innuendos and smears, second-guessing and distorting people's views, etc.
I am relieved that both candidates firmly dealt with this subject, exhibiting the class others sadly lack.
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#82
"Climate change, if it exists which I doubt,"
Ah, so you're a qualified PhD in meteorology, climatology, and earth sciences are you? Must be, since you've just dismissed the result of long and deep research and study!
I'm always in wonder that so many experts in everything don't manage to get jobs where it would matter...
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Well now that the what's up with Bill and Hillary controversy is done, we have a new soap opera to occupy our time. Obama and Biden should remain gracious and on message and let the street theater unfold all on its own.
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#82 (CLODOVIL):
You're just a cornucopia of deliberate ignorance, aren't you?
The Palin kid's pregnancy is, in fact, none of our business. McCain's judgement in selecting arah Palin is very mich our business.
The fact of global arming is not an issue. It's getting warmer. The ony people putting up a fight are politicians are corporations with something to gain by denying reality, as well as poor sods like you are suckered by those miscreants.
What's at issue among the Luddite set is whether or not it is caused by human activity. The only efective way to deny humanity's role in globalwarming is to deny the ability of humans to think straight You, however, seem to be a prime candiate for that failing.
You'll need to try harder to explain the connection between global warming and foreign aid sent to Africa, since Africe is the least industrialized continent. BTW, America's total foreign aid expenditure is a tiny fraction of the federal budget.
Still, thank you for demonstrating why I never vote for Republicans.
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I think it is only fair to Gov. Palin that at least one question in the VP debate should be about snow.
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Having religious convictions and high moral standards does not mean our children will not do something wrong or inappropriate from a societal perspective.
If anything, most people will sympathize with Gov. Palin's situation as it represents something that affects thousands of families worldwide; but I would not be surprised if the reaction is total indifference.
I spent most of the afternoon with friends and relatives and the topic of discussion was Gov. Palin's qualifications - or lack thereof - not her daughter, youngest son, ex-son-in-law or her husband.
The main topics of discussion were pocketbook issues.
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ref #84
Sam two different type of hurricanes.
But the major problems of Katrina were the incompetence of Nagin and Blanco both Democrats.
You probaly agree with Louis Farakhan that the govt blew up the levees.
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Tempest in a teapot. What are they going to do? Make Bristol wear a scarlet letter? You know there are Gay and Lesbian Repulicans too? The only thing that sticks out to me is that Repubicans need to rethink their birth control policies if not their abortion policies.
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McCains choice may prove unfortunate; time will tell. I pity the poor child should it prove that she is 5 months along, or should any of the rest of the roumers prove true.
Anyway, my point is (and it seems to have been missed by lots of otherwise savvy folks) that the country is just about evenly devided, not only on the canidates in question but on every other issue of any importance, too. This division began with Regan but matured during the Clinton years.
That the election of W. in 2000 had to be decided in the Supreme Court is evidence of that. That W beat John Kerry in 2004 was a given in that Kerry was too much like Bush to represent any sort of choice. In any case, the nation is divided on all the major issues; aboration, gun control, the use of the military, energy policy and the list continues.
We see that a house diveded may still stand but it's a very hard thing to govern. We can only hope that the next President can surpass partisian politics and unite the nation. Otherwise we may have to give the Parlimentary system a shot...
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ref #82 and 89
I suggest you both read "The Skeptical Envionmetalist" by Bjorn Lomberg.
Unlike Al Gore he actually know what he is talking about.
No matter which side you are on the debate, Al Gore has been discredited by serious impartial scientists.
The Nobel commitee is neither.
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I can't really understand Economist123's gripe against BBC. Justin Webb did not dig out the Bristol pregnancy story. It is all hanging out in every sense of the word. In fact I would say Mr Webb has managed to pour cold water on a story that is burning holes in the metal doors of the American press.
Mr Webb is only reporting on the stories that are making waves in America. To suggest that he should dig out some stories against Obama to "even it out" is simply ludicrous. If Obama has some embarassing story it will come out in no time and Mr Webb will report it.
So, stop crying foul.
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#36
Then if they had a son they could call him Roy.
I suppose Mr Temple-Meads is out of the question?
LMAO Sam
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The convention is becoming such a sham that Journalists are now interviewing each other because no one interesting is around.
Matt Frei talking to Cockie Roberts made me laugh.
Of New Orleans 'Look, when we do we say the whole city is a potential bath tub, let's just abandon it'
Love the BBC!
Happy Sam
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Im sorry - I know America is diverse(and there will be a lot of support for this woman in certain working class areas) but the reality is that McCain is 72 and has had cancer more than once. If he gets in, and doesnt survive the first term, Palin will be the president of the USA and the most powerful person in the world. It just wont happen - trust me.
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#54
'Firstly he attacked Palin over her viewpoint on creationalism. this is a complete non issue. The different between the right and the left is that while both hold views on issues, the left aim to impose them on the population when in power. The right belives, in contrast, on letting individuals have power to determine their own outcomes. Hence whatever the right might believe in, they won't force it onto others. Hence believing in creationism is a non-story. Yet Webb thought he could attack with it.'
What? Completely the wrong way around. By forcing schools to teach Creationism as Science the right is trying to force extremist rubbish to our children. Liberals say 'teach it as religion or teach it at home. Keep science in science classes'.
Liberals say you can marry who you like, Republicans want to impose their views. By amending the constitution.
Republicans want phone companies to spy on me. Liberals don't.
Liberals want a woman to be able to choose an abortion, or not. Republicans want to force their views on all by banning abortion. Some want to limit contraception.
I could go on, the only notable exception is guns. The sad thing is Republicans have convinced some people that they are in favor of freedom while restricting it. Shame on them, and shame on you.
Before you flame me, I'm independent. But Iwill not be voting for McCain. I may, for the first time, vote straight Democrat.
Annoyed Sam
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So now the sins of the children are visited upon the fathers (and mothers)?
This child is neither a politico nor an adult but did act within the liberal laws of sexual conduct and consent in the state she resides, so why is this even an issue?
Should the parents make like the Police in China and force the abortion if not wanted?
This case is not worthy of print. leave the child alone
There are many cases where the child of a celebrity or a public figure does not follow in the world view or ideology of the parents and makes independent choices.
It does not wrench the gut. There is not a panic.
It creates an opportunity for compassion, maturity and forward thinking. Once the baby arrives it will be celebrated.
She took the opportunity and now she can handle the consequences, as my single, liberal, independent thinking teenage mother did in liberal opportunities the 60's.
I, and now my own children are glad to be here. I am very glad she kept me. This is not the end of the world, people.
**Prepare yourselves! The younger Palin may have actually enjoyed the experience (gasp) and repeat the offense many times over in the future!**
Now be fair: lest you forget....
Mr. Obama, is on record to keep close company with and deal with, known domestic terrorists and felons, that, to my knowledge have never recanted nor repented; so
Debate morality and hypocrisy and speak to that will you please?
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I think it is right that she should have the child. If you believe that abortion is wrong in principle, then it is natural to go through with the pregnancy and it is right that your family should stand by you and support you.
However it is hardly a good thing if a 17 year old becomes pregnant, and a very bad thing if she feels in any way pressured that she ought to marry the father because of her mother's public circumstances. What a position for a 17 year old to be placed in!
As to a reflection on Sarah Palin, I would have felt that I had failed in my duties to my daughter if she had become pregant at 17. A girl of that age who is having sex should be advised to have contraception. It is far too early to be committed by some accident into something that will affect the whole of the rest of your life, perhaps in a dutiful but unsuitable marriage.
Sarah Palin is a highly talented politician and brightens up the McCain campaign very nicely, but even before this I thought she was a risky choice. This news doesn't improve my opinion of her and I find it hard to believe that the McCain team knew of this and yet still proceeded with what was such a radical choice in the first place.
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McCain is elderly and could die in office. Palin would then be president.
Palin has been unable to instill self respect and integrity in her own children. How then can she run the US government.
McCain just lost the election.
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We see the human panorama displayed here thanks to our host, Mr. Webb.
He specifically should not be blamed for:
The incurable garrulousness and perturbed denigrations of unstable senility
Nor the reflexive viciousness of the unappreciated tending an empty nest
The general bias of easily identifiable propagandists
But he should get credit for those who come through with cogent and perceptive analysis
or apposite and carefully expressed facts.
(and I usually get some good laughs from many posts seen here)
_________________
Those concerned with the frauds of creationism, aka intelligen design should find and download the 136 page judges'
opinion in the Dover School Administration case.
The judge identifies the false swearing and uncredibility of the born-agains and how they falsified their testimony and doctored the evidence.
He also reviews the history of the court cases and attempts of the creationists, their "wedge papers", false text books, etc.
This linkage of lying and dishonest practice may have bearning on the qualification of the VP candidate from Alaska.
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One wonders how much time Mrs Palin is going to have for her pregnant daughter ,five month old baby son who has Downs Syndrome and three other children as she embarks on one of the world’s most demanding jobs…for the next four years.
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#92
Magic,
Do you seriously believe that? Nagin and Blanco were incompetent, sure. But the agency responsible for major disaster relief is FEMA. What did they do? Nothing.
I guess in your book Browny did do a hell of a job?
Stumped Sam
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BTW Magic,
Are they different because one was called Gustav and one Katrina? So Katrina was a girl?
Different types of hurricanes, LMAO.
The Skeptical Environmentalist. Good book. Written by an economist and the cnetral thesis is if you have $50bn what do you fix. He thinks Aids in Africa. Compelling from a pure economics perspective. Doesn't deny Global warming.
We've done this before, but to recap. There isn't a single peer reviewed scientific paper that refutes man made gloal warming. Not one.
Sam
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#104, sizler944, we haven't heard the lady speak.
She could be very eloquent. And, of course,
how do the Republicans attack her? As
a working mom with problems at home?
Forget it, the lady has a kevlar vest going
into her debates with Biden.
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Thanks to javnyet and justcorbly for your comments, may I remark as follows:
Javanyet, no, I am not a qualified PhD in climatology et al - are you? I read and learn about both sides of the issue instead of just listening to the politically correct version to which you appear to adhere. And your snide bankhanded comment about jobs will not wash as I am a successful expert in my work (financial).
justcorbly, please learn how to spell and get a grip on grammar. I am not quite sure what you were trying to say. What have AIDS in Africa and condoms got to do with the election. Why should a novice like Palin do any worse with international relations than a self-obsessed light-weight like Obama. In conclusion, I am quite amazed that my comments should have provoked such violent reactions from you. Interesting.
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I'm sure we can all agree, regardless of politics, let's wish the best for the daughter and baby.
But Gov Palin cannot evade her political position; she is absolutely against abortion, under any circumstances, and McCain's using her for this.
From her and her husband's statement today: "We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby..." So Bristol made a decision. She had a free choice whether to carry the baby to term. Right?
So, Gov Palin, did your daughter really have a choice, in which case your political position is hypocrisy, or not, in which case your statement is a blatant lie.
I wish somebody in US media was tough enough to hold the Gov to this question - no wriggle room!
Good luck America.
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As an Obama supporter, I have to say that some of the replies to Justin's post are naive and/or show a partisan attitude which makes assumptions regardless of objective fact.
This is not great news for us Democrats, no matter how eagerly some people are jumping on it. It makes Palin look like she deals with issues lots of everyday American's do. As Justin says, she is doing the right thing by socially conservative standards by not having an abortion.
The McCain camp released this deliberately to stem smears from Obama supporters about Palin's youngest child being her eldest daughters.
So - Palin looks in touch with everyday American's, maintains her appeal to social conservatives, and makes Obama's supporters look like they are launching a smear campaign against her... Hmm yes, great news! That's why Barack has said lay off it, he is clever enough to know that playing this up too much will be counter-productive.
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Rev Stolpe, Namaste ()
Seconded. And I second Obama's motion, too. And Corbly'sSalaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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#54.Economist123 wrote:
"Firstly he attacked Palin over her viewpoint on creationalism. this is a complete non issue. The different between the right and the left is that while both hold views on issues, the left aim to impose them on the population when in power. The right belives, in contrast, on letting individuals have power to determine their own outcomes. Hence whatever the right might believe in, they won't force it onto others. Hence believing in creationism is a non-story. Yet Webb thought he could attack with it."
The right believes that? Really? Tell that to the Kansas school system. Or Cobb Co. Georgia, where they initially put stickers in the textbooks regarding evolution.
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Are we seeing a caricature of the left?
Since when does the left ridicule teenage pregnancy?
When the mother is the daughter of a conservative and she's not having an abortion.
The left right now looks a lot worse to the right than Palin does to the left. It should be careful it doesn't alienate more middle American voters than it already has.
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If you look at American political history, it is nearly impossible for the party in the White House to reclaim it while in the middle of two things -
1) There is an unpopular war dragging on and/or
2) The economy is bad
This year should be a no brainer democrat win, however it will be close simply due to the way a portion of people still feel about blacks south of the Mason Dixon Line.
This issue with Palin's daughter will inevitably blow over, and should not have too much effect on the election. What may have an effect on the election is that Palin's views alienate a large number of middle of the road / independent Americans. As long as the democrats do a good job laying out Palin's specific stances to the American people.
Sidenote - The comments to this blog are much better than most I have read. I felt I should create an account just to share my thoughts.
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I don't think we should be making a big deal out of her daughter's out of wedlock pregnancy, but to treat it as insignificant and "a private matter" would be wrong.
If this were the daughter of a hockey mom with extreme right wing views on life then, apart from a few schadenfreuden sniggers, we should leave them to stew in their own hypercritical juice.
But this extreme right wing hockey mom could soon be a heart beat away from being the most powerful ruling politician in the world.
It was she who dragged her family up on stage to show them off as paragons of the Great American Family, and by implication showing herself off as a Great
American Mom with all the Right Family Values. So we have the right to judge just how hypercritical or not she, AND her family, is and how suitable she would be for high public office.
It is not a private matter!
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"It's nobody's business but the Palins,"
While may be true, is a hilarious bit of hypocrisy coming from the bible-beating right wing, considering the lengths to which the Republican party is willing to go to embarrass and harass any person in public life whom may be liberal or a Democrat. Especially if they are running for office.
It will be stunning for America if the Republicans are able to hold onto the Presidency for another 4 years. Stunning, horrifying and disastrous.
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And the secret father is:
1 - Karl Rove
2 - Osama bin Laden
3 - James McCain
4 - Mary Cheney
I am an American. This is my country. You can not convince me that this is too trashy to post. I live in this dung heap.
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If Obama had to redo his selection for VP, I am sure he'll pick Obama girl! Then there will no talk of sex baiting. And Obama girl will mesmerize the conservative right - especially pastors - with her moves. She can sing too. Like Susie Palin, Obama girl can leap across the Niagara falls, scale over Mt McKinley in a single swoop, kill a moose with bare hands and stare down Mr Putin. In other words, Susie Palin is as relevant to political discourse as Obama girl.
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There's plenty of hypocrisy on both sides here.
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#56 gunsandreligion
What flat earth theory are we talking about here? The earth "as a round platter with Antarctica around the edges" theory? Personally, I prefer the earth "all cut up like an orange and laid out flat on a table" theory.
Let's not forget the hollow earth theory. I'm still not sure how the sun at the center of our subterranean world turns into a starry night sky, but I'm not a politician so I shouldn't be expected to know such things.
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The BBC audience may interested in the news about a video released by a pastor in the US by the name of Stuart Shepard, on or around August 8th. He urged prayers all across the US for rain of biblical proportions to drown out Obama's acceptance speech. He got a bull's eye, except for the wrong convention, wrong week! Kind of goes with what is happening to Susie Palin - all this cynical women vote grabbing is about to backfire. Sweet karma.
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I think it's time for bed. But before I go I think I'll listen to that great religious anthem 'Jesus Loves me' by the Austin lounge lizards. Seems appropriate.
G'night all
Sam
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#102. RealFrigid wrote: "You really can't have a 4 month old baby and be 5 months pregnant at the same time." How do we know that the pregnancy is actually of five months duration? Perhaps it's only three months!
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#84 (MagicKirin):
The Katrina catastrophe can be blamed on:
1) The storm
2) Evacuation by too few residents
3) The belated and incompetent federal response
If Nagin and Bianco had happened to be Republicans, the right-wing propaganda machine would have spent the last few years either singing their praises or pretending they didn't exist.
#95 (MagicKirin):
How fortunate that you read one book and have become an expert on environmental issues. We can stop paying attention to science and listen to you now.
#100 (SamTyler):
Good on you! The real left -- not the caricature marketed by the right and not the leftover interest groups still fighting the culture wars of the 1960's -- is all about protecting and expanding the freedoms of Americans. The right defines America not by the Constitution but by race, creed and where your parents were born. It's a very 19th century nationalistic way of defining a country, and we all know where that led.
Today's right wing traces its lineage through Richard Nixon, Barry Goldwater, George Wallace, Lester Maddox and others of that ilk. It has severed all connections with honorable conservatives like Eisenhower and Taft, and long ago abandoned the principles of Lincoln.
Today's left traces it's lineage to Jefferson, Wilson, FDR and Kennedy. (BTW, the right ought to praise FDR for saving capitalism from itself and preventing a revolution.)
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How old is the father of Bristol Palin's expected baby?
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RF, David_C, any way you look at it, they've
got one heck of a baby factory going on up
there in the Frozen North.
It must be something in the water (or ice).
#124, Chicoan, I never thought of the
"orange all cut up and laid out on a table"
theory. But, it does explain why I can't
get a direct flight from the East Coast
to San Jose anymore. This must have
just happened recently.
And, those clever Hualapai Indians have
put that glass walkway over the Grand Canyon.
All this time I've been thinking that it was
a feat of engineering, but now I realize that
it was done with mirrors.
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Her daughters pregnancy should be left as a family matter and not part of this campaign.
Nuff said.
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Economist123, what do you think of this link.
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Justin-
I am an Evanjelical.
I am stawnchly pro-choice! I stawnchly support gay marrige!! I am stawnchly anti-death penalty!!
I can't tell you how deeply offended I am at the fact that you lump all "Evanjelicals" with the extreme right wing of the Republican party!!
Evanjelical is a denomination of the Christian religion. It merely means that this specific denomination teaches primarearly through the bible alone rather than through scholarly works/richuals like Catholics do That's all! And the Republicans have high jacked it!!
Seriously Justin, your wiser than this?
As regards the Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy. I furvantly hope the Democrats exploit this for all its worth much like the Republicans did with their holyer than thow attitudes did with the Clinton affair!!
John Constable #24: Seriously? A socialist is harder to find in the US than gold (unprotected by fort knox?) Who have you been talking to? Well you've met your second "American socialist"...me!
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NoRashDecisions, I hate to break it to you,
but Christianity in America has been taken
over by the extreme right-wing.
It's kind of like the book, the Puppet Masters
where aliens hijack people and try to take over
the planet.
But, there are a few of us left in hiding who
don't fit into any known category.
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CDC stats show that approx 1/3 of girls in the U.S. are pregnant before age 20. Based on studies by the Nebraska Dept of Health in the 1990s, (including in-depth focus group interviews with teen parents), there is no longer any social or financial reason for these kids *not* to get pregnant - their families, or the government, subsidizes the offspring. Since child support enforcement is laughable in most cases, boys feel no responsibility for the problem. I have looked for stats on the number of pregnancies caused by boys under age 20, or by older men impregnating girls under age 20, but these studies seem to be sadly lacking. Even when the parents marry the relationships don't last, and many children grow up with multiple sets of step-parents and step-siblings.
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Why are there programs on sex ed and contraception in the schools?
So that young women do not get pregnant and have babies before they have the maturity to start a family.
Sarah Palin opposed sex ed and wanted abstinence taught to keep young women from having sex and getting pregnant.
Palin's views did not work in her own family and teaching abstinence does not work for other young people either.
But Palin ..no matter what happens ...will never recognize that her views about sex ed are wrong..because she is an ideologue...and not pragmatic.
I feel sorry for Bristol and if she is the mother already of two babies..then she is a very angry young woman imo. and defying her mother by getting pregnant.
And Obama is right to try to keep the focus off this very sad story.
This is what sex ed and contraception are supposed to help teenagers avoid...
early marriages with the responsibilities and pressures of a baby..before the young mother has had a chance to develop her own life.
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going by the timings, this child became pregnant around the time that her mother had her youngest child who has Downs syndrome. To me that suggests a search for comfort rather than a long term relationship. This family appears to be imploding - they have problems - what family doesn't but to have one parent with 2 jobs [running a commercial fishing concersn and working for an oil company] and the other parent in a high profile 24/7 political job - who is there for the kids now and in the future?
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I really think private matters should remain private, even in politics, still this really raises some valid questions, I think.
First, Palin is a strong opponent of any kind of anti-conception. Can she really still argue that a teenage pregnancy is a better option than (educating your children about)condom/pill use? Is it really a good idea for a 17 year old to get married just because she's pregnant? (Are we living in the 1950s?)
But mostly, what does the fact that she's running for vice-president at a time when her teenage daughter is pregnant say about her priorities and her judgement.
Not that I think she should be at home to take care of her family like some bloggers have suggested.
My thoughts are mainly with her daughter - she's undoubtly going through a difficult time. Being a teenage mom isnt easy as it is, and i really doubt that she'd appreciate it that her mom's run for office exposed this to the whole bloody world.
The press has been asked to leave them alone, but I dont think tabloids will really mind this request ...
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re. my post 144T
There have been 65 comments on this blog since midnight. All have been allowed through by the moderators - except mine at 136.
(Two of those allowed through have subsequently been removed by the moderators for breach of blog rules).
I should be grateful if as a simple matter of courtesy the moderators would either publish my post or debar it.
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Frankly, I just can't see that a lot of people are going to say to themselves "I was leaning towards McCain, but dog-gone it, Palin's daughter is pregnant so now I'm going to vote for Obama."
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So, we have an ill USA president, and a pregnant vice president who is on maternal leave, and god help us !, if she is not at the moment on maternal leave, chances are she will be in a couple of months, we have a good fertility season on US politics ???...if not for economy !! The climate in alaska is very congenial and very very fertile, if you know what i mean !! the cold climate, and the family values, you know ?....we got gynos on the run truly !!
When we say pregnant vice president, we can assure somebody in the family is pregnant, god knows who is the father...with due respect, we will leave it there !
We can always preach good family values, at international level that is, and we can all be a hypocrite at our best, when it comes to our family.....of course, our family is the best, and everybody else has problems, is that what the church preaches ?? apparently so ...
comments ??
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#149, you postulate a situation where the
Speaker of the House might be called upon
to assume the duties of the office of President.
Now, I am in a quandary. Do I have to vote for
a democrat to keep a democrat that I intensely
dislike (Pelosi) from becoming President?
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Economist: Is it not a fair and balanced presentation of the news to report all of the news? Surely you don't think that just because this is the week of the Republican convention, all negative press should be swept under the rug? Do you really think if something of this sort came up during the Democrat's convention it would not have been run? Imagine what the "family values" republicans would have to say if it was Obama with a pregnant teenage daughter; they'd have a heyday. Clearly you aren't claiming that down in the dirt negative reporting has no place in the arena, you just don't like to see it aimed at your guy -- you have no problem calling for an investigation of the ridiculous Ayers link. The reason the press hasn't given much credence to that story is that there is absolutely no meat to it. Obama was eight years old when the weathermen were operating and has strongly condemned the actions of Ayers and the weathermen in his adult life. His service on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago with Ayers from 1999-2002 (NOT the Chicago Annenberg Challenge) is hardly incriminating: the fund supports poverty stricken people in the Chicago area. Radical? Hardly. (So you know, Obama was the first chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge; a school improvement group Ayers created-- the University of Chicago is making the records of that service available). The fact is that the public does know about the Ayers link, and the public has rejected it -- the commercial created by the notorious swift-boater Harold Simmons has proved an utter disgrace and the Obama campaign is going after it on the grounds that it is an attempt to bypass federal election law.
As far as the creationism issue, of course it's an issue on voter's minds. Palin wants to teach theology to schoolchildren in the guise of science. She wants to eliminate sex education that speaks to our young people in an honest and informative way about how to protect themselves in favor of an abstinence only approach that has failed in her own home and has been a failed approach of the Bush administration. A Congressional Report has come out saying that abstinence classes have been giving students false information and studies show that these programs are not deterring sexual activity. Students with this type of education are more likely to contract STDs than their peers who are getting the facts. It's just dangerous, especially as the world faces the AIDS crisis; and if those kinds of stances aren't telling other people and their children what to believe, I don't know what is. Besides, it is ridiculous to argue that the right is concerned with letting individuals have the power to determine their own outcomes: what's the deal with their stances on issues like homosexuality, gay rights, a woman's right to choose, and stem-cell research?
If you'd like to know what Obamas positions are, like you say you do, I'd suggest you hop on over to his website and take a gander at his blueprint for change.
And I truly hope you aren't out there spouting to people that Obama will raise their taxes. Most working families will enjoy a 1,000 dollar tax break under Obama. Only people making 250,00 a year will have their taxes raised (because of the elimination of the Bush tax cuts--he's hardly enacting a tax increase), as well as raised capital gains and dividends taxes -- any raise middle and lower income families see in their taxes should be offset by that Making Work Pay credit.
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David Cunard please read my post to you at #471 on the previous entry. I'd like to know your thoughts.
Thank you
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7C8R9S, I have just one problem with Obama's
tax plan: he doesn't mention anything about
the AMT.
Are you saying that he will waive the AMT for
anyone making under $250,000 a year?
And, is the same also true of capital gains
and dividends?
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Justin Webb's "Update" at the head of this blog says he was on the convention floor for some moments - checking out views of Republicans.
Moments ??? A story that the BBC has been blazoning all day, is still pushing out on the Today programme - and all it gets by way of gathering vox pop is a few moments of chatter with a handful of Republicans ?
How about checking what Republicans are saying all over the media, and over lots of blogs ? How about reflecting the utter scorn and disgust being expressed about the smears suggesting that Trig is not Sarah Palin's baby ? - smears still being published right here in this blog.
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Sorry that's post 472.
Justin, how exactly is McCain taking the party in a new direction? Its not as if he's pro choice! Let a nominee of the Republican party be pro choice! Then we'll talk!!
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I think that this proves just how terrifyingly backwards Palin's politics are. Her own child is pregnant at seventeen, meaning that she probably never spoke to the girl about safe sex practices. Instead, she advocates abstinence-only sexual education, which has been proven time and time again does nothing to deter kids from having sex. If she becomes Vice President, she'll probably continue the Bush Administration's subsidizing of abstinence-only programs around the country.
That's what frightens me the most about all this.
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#144. JohnAAA "the moderators saw fit to allow several comments repeating the baseless and now disproven rumour" - Disproven by whom? By the supposed five month pregnancy of the young woman concerned? We only have Mrs Palin's word for that. What does gall us is that Mrs Palin and her family don't practice what they preach; it's permissible for her daughter to have sex at 16, have a baby out of wedlock and to force marriage upon a young, unprepared couple and yet she wants creationism and abstinence taught in the schools of Alaska (and no doubt America as well). For the Governor to take the high moral road for the rest of us and not to apply it to her own family is, to say the least, hypocritical. If bets are being taken, my guess is that by November she won't even be the candidate.
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I suppose my biggest fear would be that an extreme right winger like Palin would be just a heart beat away from the Presidency and could appoint another disaster to the Supreme Court. Bad Presidents are gone in at most 8 years. Bad Justices are there for life.
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#130, David_Cunard :
And... maybe 9-11 was an inside job...
Welcome, welcome lunatic fringe!!!
I'm a skeptic, but I believe in the rule of evidence and the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
Sarah Palin also admitted to smoking pot in her youth when it was legal to do so in Alaska. Did you want to call her a hypocrite for that behavior?
Almost this entire thread has been pure unsubstantiated character assassination.
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I am a 56 year old white woman who has voted Republican since I was 18 years old. This is the first time I am going to have trouble deciding whom to vote for. Oh, by the way, I am one of the "Staid New Englanders", just not the monied kind.
When Obama picked Biden whom I have always had great respect for, even if he is on the other side, I thought, race over. My vote will go to Obama.
Oh and I am one of the unknown creatures in N.E. A Republican who believes in pro-choice. Have since Roe v. Wade, and will fight going down.
Now here is John McCain, who as a war hero should be respected for that fact alone. If you didn't know, his father was a Naval Admiral and the North Vietnamese told him he could get out early, but he said no, not if every other prisoner wasn't going. He stayed 5 more long years and lost the use of his arms. I have respected him as a Senator, and though not happy with him voting against pro-choice, everyone has their own voice. AS LONG AS EVERYONE IF ALLOWED TO HAVE A VOICE IN THEIR LIFE.
That is what needs to be part of the program for the candidates. It doesn't matter what I want, the Party wants, The Left or the Right. The INDIVIDUAL is ultimately responsible to make decisions, whether you agree or not.
Which brings me to Ms. Palin. She is Governor of the largest state in our country. She is NOT privileged in any way. She was a hockey mom. Yes, her daughter in pregnant, so was Britany Spears little sister, and that was like a Royal birth. Get priorities straight people, everyone does something in their lives. If Ms. Palin's daughter does not marry the father of her child until he finishes college, if that was his plan, good for them. They will start out smart. Not poor and scrapping by.
And Ms. Palin's husband isn't anything big. He is a commercial fisherman in Alaskan waters. There is a show of the Discovery Channel in the U.S., that shows just how tough that life is. So my hat's off to him for going out 12 months a year to provide for his family and the families of his crew members, who depend on him.
So I guess what I am trying to say, is until I go in that booth the first tuesday of November, I DO NOT know who has my vote.
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151
The whole point is that there is a genuine debate concerning Obama's connections with Ayers - who still stands by his terrorist activities and who is far more than just a neighbour of Obama.
The story has been on TV channels including attack ads, and a simple Google search will show stories in dozens of newspapers. Google News runs to over two thousand entries. You think Obama is blameless - others charge that this issue strikes directly at Obama's judgment, the core of his Chicago politics.
But not a single story from the entire BBC news organisation. This is slipshod journalism.
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"Gut-wrenching"? Not unusual "in America"? "Mutterings in the country club set"? The right thing "in socially conservative circles"?
Come along now, Justin, your preconceptions are showing. We're entitled to much better stuff than this from the BBC.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Justin Webb's "Update" suggests that the CBS story he links to reflects general opinion among Repubs.
I suggest that his story is far more reflective of the mood :
http://www.nysun.com/national/gop-warns-democrats-over-palin/85014/
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75. At 11:49pm on 01 Sep 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref#65
Senator's Obama experience
Political Hack in Illinois Senate
75% of only Senate term running for President
MagicKirin, sure, Obama had only 8 yrs as a state legislature, working across party lines, was a constitutional professor, community organizer. But let's see what Karl Rove had to say about a related issue:
"I think he's going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice," Rove said. "He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president."
Rove singled out Virginia governor Tim Kaine, also a Face The Nation guest, as an example of such a pick.
"With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."
Rove continued: "So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I'm really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States? What I'm concerned about is, can he bring me the electoral votes of the state of Virginia, the 13 electoral votes in Virginia?'"
I live in a city with a bigger population the the entire state of Alaska. She was a mayor of a "city" with a population of less the 10,000. Give me a break.
Obama has had a life time of caring about people and America. I think Rove just said that obviously McCain put politics ahead of country. It's so obvious, and sad. And an example of more of the same: i.e. manipulating people through the propaganda of religious values and continue lies coming from right wing radio stations (80% of what anyone can get in America)
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gunsandreligion: Barack Obama has voted no on allowing AMT reduction without budget offset. The congressmen who did so did so because they think that the modifications will leave us out a trillion dollars with nowhere to recoup it. He has also voted no on eliminating the AMT for the same reason. By 2010 the CBO says that anyone making over 100,000 will be hit by the AMT, if nothing gets done about it. As far as I know, Obama has not made a statement as to what he will do as president about the AMT. Here's a bit about his plan for capital gains and dividends:
--- Families with incomes below $250,000 would pay current capital gains rates (a maximum tax of 15% on gains on assets held more than one year). Those earning more than $250,000 would face an increase -- a top rate of 20%.
--- The top dividend tax rate would remain the current 15% for those earning less than $250,000, but would rise to 20% for those earning above that threshold.
--- For single people, the tax increases above would apply to those earning more than $200,000. here is a link to what this info is grabbed from: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2008/08/what-would-pres.html
I hope that was at least a little bit helpful
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Everyone can say it's a family matter, but frankly people want to know that politicians are humans, too. This whole story goes a long way to defining Palin as a real-life American mom, dealing with the same issue that millions of American families have dealt with: what happens when your teen daughter gets pregnant?
Who will say that the human (ie, non-policy) aspects of politicians doesn't affect how they view candidates? Think of: Joe Biden's blue-collar roots and 2-hr commute each day to be there while his boys grew up; John McCain's 5-yr stint in the Hanoi Hilton; Barack Obama's biracial parentage and being raised by a single mother on food stamps.
So now Palin's daughter is pregnant, and America (and the BBC) cares. And so they should, the official "it's family business" line to the contrary. Indeed, political leaders should be more than policy-making drones; they are flesh and blood. They lead a nation, a people, not just a government, and of right ought to be viewed in all their humanity.
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#163. JohnAAA: "The smear was investigated fully shortly after the birth by the local newspaper " Gotta link? Then provide it. From your spelling and complaint about the licence fee, I'd guess that you're British and writing from the UK. If that's so, what concern is it of yours to tell American voters what's the "truth" and what's not. The Right (here) was certainly in the gutter with John Kerry and the Swiftboat ads, but possibly you don't recall those. And if you do, you probably approved.
#152. NoRashDecisions - To answer your question on the previous entry, why is this topic high on the list in the US? Because in the UK, they are rather more advanced over moral issues. You may not agree with that, but terminations are available at no cost through the NHS, gay civil partnerships are the law, sex education has been part of school curricula since the 1970s and in general I think people are more open to these topics. That hasn't lowered the number of teenage pregnancies - and abstinence programmes such as those suggested by Mrs Palin have failed - or her daughter would not now be pregnant.
#159. RealFrigid - it's only Mrs Palin's word against some extremely convincing photographs to the contrary. Whatever the truth, there is no doubt that she has one rule for her family and another for the rest. What happened to all the other virtues her family should personify? The young man, Levi Johnston, is equally at fault since he too appears to have been ignorant of contraceptive practices. One might excuse the young woman, but two of them? I don't think so!
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#151:
Your understanding of American taxation is truly deluded logic. Please don't drink the cool aid, use your brain and analyze some data on your own.
The reversal of a tax cut is not a revenue neutral event. The earned income tax credit is another name for redistribution of wealth (socialism). Raising capital gains and dividend taxes is a tax on anyone with money invested in the stock market. That would be most Americans who have 401Ks, IRAs and pension funds. This means that capital gains and dividend taxes are a significant percentage of federal taxes paid by individuals in the lowest 60 percent of wage earners.
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#151:
Also, due to the fact that Wall Street has been one of the major SIG's funding Obama, I doubt he will turn around and step on them.
Here is some actual information to get you started.
CBO -- Effective Tax Rates
The American progressive tax system is confiscatory or as Frederic Bastiat might say, "legal plunder".
Looking at Federal income tax only;
-the 1st quintile (avg income of $15,900) are given and additional 6.5 pct,
-the 2nd quintile (avg income $37,400) are given and additional 1 pct,
-the 3rd quintile (avg income $58,500) pay 3 pct,
-the fourth quintile(avg income $85,200) pay 6 pct
-the 5th quintile (avg income $231,300) pay 14 pct
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#151:
Finally, with respect to repealing the "Bush Tax Cuts", read this Slate article.
Bush Tax Cuts Unfair... to the Rich
Reversing the Bush Tax cuts will therefore increase the burden on the lowest 60 percent of wage earners.
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7C8, that does help. Not knowing what will
happen with the AMT renders the other elements
of his proposal somewhat moot, perhaps the
Obama folks can address the issue before
McCain beats them up on it.
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The good news is that the storm was less severe, it appears the levees held this time and New Orleans won't be flooded.
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140, guns.
There are moe people like you than you think, but since they don't prosceletize no one knows they are there, hidden. The right-wingers sound stronger because they make more noise.
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#174, you are probably right. In high school,
I ran for class president under the "student
apathy party."
We didn't have a convention because nobody
cared.
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149, sv3.
"When we say pregnant vice president...."
Maybe it is better not to leave it there. In any case, it can't be.
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The most startling aspect of this non-story is the lack of intelligent comment from people. Unless I am much mistaken Palin herself is not pregnant but her 17 year old daughter. If electors want politicians with totally blemish free lives they will be unlucky.To err is human and in this case it was her daughter, and th assumption being made by some that the daughter is being forced into marraige when thye know no such thing is unbelievable. Move on and discuss things that matter. This is tittle tattle best reserved for the red tops.
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163, John AAA.
If you had some medical knowledge, plus knew how very small towns operate, you would not be so dismissive.
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What is the problem here? A young couple are having a child. Great! This should be a celebration.
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An awful lot of people on here have used the word 'hypocritical'. Where exactly is the hypocrisy ? Sarah Palin's daughter has a child out of wedlock. I do not know Sarah Palin's daughter's views on having children out of wedlock so I cannot say whether or not she is hypocritical.
Sarah Palin, contrary to much of the assertion here, is pro-contraception, at least according to the Anchorage Daily News of 2006: http://www.adn.com/news/politics/elections/governor06/story/44186.html
Sarah Palin apparently believes in teaching abstinence in schools. It obviously did not work for her daughter and I imagine Ms Palin must wonder whether she was right. Where is the hypocrisy ?
#131 justcorbly
Look up Abdussamatov. I believe he has the necessary credentials. It is not that I believe the link between climate change and greenhouse gases is completely false, I just wonder whether it’s completely true. A lot of scientists get a lot of research money to prove it.
There is an organisation called The Portman Group which exists to promote the alcohol industry. They spend quite a lot of money on research. A lot of research they sponsor shows that alcohol is beneficial to humans whereas marijuana makes you psychotic.
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NoRashDecisions wrote:
Justin-
I am an Evanjelical.
I am stawnchly pro-choice! I stawnchly support gay marrige!! I am stawnchly anti-death penalty!!
........................................
No wonder sex education doesn't work in the US, neither do spelling classes...
Anyway, this is not about the children, it's about the judgement of the mother, the seemingly ineffectual parenting skills of the mother and about how she will implement her somewhat unhelpful / extreme views into law as VP.
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I have read the numerous postings of Magic Kirin and have to laugh. So typical of the right wing to be so self righteous. In His/Her postings he/she states Al Jezeera is biased while supporting the singularly most biased news agency in the world Fox News, blames the failed Katrina response on Democrats when it is resoundingly proven it was FEMA's failure and that of the Bush Administration; had it happened in a predominantly White, wealthy city, the response would have been instant, but in this case, no such luck, Bush's own sort of 'ethnic cleansing,' and now the support of poor poor little Bristol, 5 months pregnant at the age of 17. Can you say 'pre-marital sex,' isn't that something the whacko conservative ultra right wing creationist are steadfastly against? And yet, McCain puicked Pailn, he must have known, Bristol can hardly hide the bump. What hypocracy!!! Only in the USA would this 'team' be elected. A war veteran, not 'hero' as so often touted around with a disgraced one term (20 month) governor of the least populated state in the union who preaches family values, abstinence and creationism whose own daughter is enjoying pre-marital sex and now forced to marry some guy she probably got drunk with, and a shag, and is now stuck with, all to protect mummy! Ridiculous any where else in the world, but a normal day in the good ole USA, and you know what is worse, Americans will find ways to excuse it, and still vote for them. Some how, the republicans will turn this around, say it was all part of their plan to fight terrorism, and say it was Osama Bin Laden who plotted to get Bristol pregnant. Next up, Palin will say it is ok as it was immaculate conception!!
Wake up America, dont buy into this rubbish. Do you really want Plain a heart beat away from the position of President, and don't kid yourself, McCain is 72, has been treated for numerous ailments, and the pressures of the office could push him over the edge, and then look what you are stuck with. Talk about lack of or no experience, God Help You!
Finally, MagicKirin, the only reason the Republicans are anywhere near Gustav is for the photoshoot, no one in the right mind believes it is anything more than that. Gustav proved the perfect 'out' so Bush and Cheney would not be at the convention reminding Americans a vote for McCain is a vote for the same garbage we have had to endure the last eight years. Get off your high horse, open your eyes, and for once, try to be honest!!
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Forget troopergate and babygate. The real biggie is that she was a member of the Alaska Independence Party in the '90s. The first duty of a President is to defend the Union.
She went on to volunteer of Pat "DC is Israeli Occupied Territory" Buchanan. She is way out of the US mainstream. If she hadn't been a pretty white woman she'd be political toast long before now!
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Justin
'...It certainly will not affect their affections for this vice-presidential candidate among social conservatives (she is, after all, doing the right thing in socially conservative circles by not having an abortion).
The vice-presidential candidate is not having an abortion, her daughter is.
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I appreciate the way that Obama and Biden are respecting Sarah's right to privacy. They are truly honorable people.
For the rest of you, go buy an issue of "The Sun", they might even have some salacious photo's doctored up for you as well.
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#182, EuroYank,
"disgraced one term (20 month) governor"
Why? My understanding of TrooperGate was that this "trooper" made death threats and deserved to get fired.
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They've only decided it's a "family matter" because they don't want people to dwell on the hypocrisy of Sarah Palin. If this had been a Democrat, I doubt the Republicans would be so respectful. It suits them to protect this story and act as if Palin is doing a great thing in standing by her daughter and having her marry her boyfriend at 17. These are huge decisions and I think the better thing to do would be to let the girl decide for herself what she wants to do. She's so young, and I feel sorry for her having a mother who will never explain options to her because her 'beliefs' are too strong.
And this leaves a problem for Palin in some areas. She can't really talk about sex education, or the lackof, when it hasn't really helped her daughter. And I assume she's okay with sex before marriage now, too?
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Regarding, Palin's past membership in the Alaskan Independence Party.The Party's Introduction page has this quote from its founder Joe Vogler:
"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
I wonder whether the MSM will give this the same prominence as Rev. Jeremiah Wright?
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#183, ba5ecafe :
Um, if I'm not mistaken... In many states Republicans are (IR) Independent Republicans. Democrats and Republicans even swap parties while holding office. So what? Maybe she's changed her party affiliation, why is this a scandal? I mean, if she was a campaign aid for Vladimir Putin, that might be a scandal.
Do her stands on the issues reflect the planks of the Republican party? If, so, then there is no issue here.
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Face it .. The Vet didn't vet! Sheagleton is crashing and burning - the only question is whether she'll take McCain down with her.
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168 David Cunard
I will post a link as soon as I can track it down again on the fact that an Alaskan newspaper investigated your smear and found it false -some months back.
I saw the report twice yesterday - and when I find it again I will post it.
The original Kos smears included a photo of the Palin family - suggesting that Bristol Palin was looking a little tubby. You say there were "convincing photos" to support your smear.
Yes, Bristol Palin was a little tubby in the key Kos photo. But here's the rub - the photo was taken in April 2006 - yes 2006. Teenagers often have some puppy fat.
Also - there's also a bunch of photos showing every sign that Sarah Palin herself was pregnant in April - not Bristol :
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/01/a-picture-refutes-a-thousand-nutcase-conspiracies/
http://picasaweb.google.com/robertson.becca/AmeriCorpsSwearingIn/photo#5192913932466744370
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/01/a-picture-refutes-a-thousand-nutcase-conspiracies/
You suggest I was complaining about the BBC licence fee. You are telling porkies there, I did not mention the licence fee.
You then have the gall to suggest that I have no right to comment on this issue. I am commenting on BBC coverage of the US election. We pay for the BBC - not you Kos lot.
You can moralise all you like about Bristol Palin's pregnancy - even though Obama has said that people should leave it well alone. But please quit the smearing about Sarah Palin not being the mother of Trig. You don't want to sound like a Truther, do you ?
As to your remarks about Swift Boats - the US electorate made their own mind up.
Sure - the pregnancy could harm Sarah Palin. But then - maybe it will attract a much bigger audience for her speech tomorrow. And if she pulls a blinder - won't the Kos smear-mongers and their water-carriers in much of the US media have shot themselves in the foot ? Maybe you should listen to what Obama himself says, and lay low a bit.
In the end, I don't think this internal Palin fsmily matter will do lasting damage. But the emergence of the full facts about Obama's links with Ayers could do real damage. That is why Obama is trying to suppress it, leaning on TV stations to stop legitimate ads.
My central point remains - the BBC runs all day long and into a second day with the palin pregnacy story. But has failed to print or broadcast a single word about Ayers, the unrepentant terrorist buddy of Obama.
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#189, RF, if you look it up, I believe that the
Alaska Independence Party is a separatist
movement which advocates secession from the US.
US Territories, for the benefit of those Brits on
this blog, have the right to vote to become one
of the following:
1. Apply for Statehood
2. Remain a territory
3. Become a commonwealth of the US
4. Become an independent state
Puerto Rico, for example, is a commonwealth.
They could, at any time, hold a referendum
to become a state, or to be independent.
I believe that the Alaska Independence Party
holds that the process of applying for statehood
was not done properly, and hence void.
So, ba5 is making some pretty strong accusations
about Palin's lack of political sophistication, along with
the Buchanan accusation.
I'm sure that all of this is easy to look up.
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You cannot control the will of your children.
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What Sarah Palin was supposed to bring on board for the McCain campaign was not only the evanfgelicals, but the 'hockey mums' (and the two groups are not entirely the same). While, I'm sure Justin, you are right that the former will have a stiff bourbon; the latter might well throw a Hail Mary pass.
One of the things Obama has always quietly projected is that he is a good and caring parent who is deeply supportive of his daughters; Palin was supposed to be the answer to that. What is now under the spotlight are her parenting skills. Just how much advice and support were the Palins giving their schoolgirl daughter; how much were they instilling into her a sense of priorities about achievement, going to university, getting a degree, having a professional career before she settled down; in other words, to what extent were family values geared around the enablement of the children?
It is the sense that Palin was so focused on herself that she failed to provide the proper parental skills that will sit uneasily with the hockey mums who are not tied to Palin's extreme evangelical values. And there are other problems as well: the statement that Bristol is 'about five months' pregnant looks a little as if it is meant fudge the other issues: when does over four months become 'about five months'? As going over term is common, one is left with a suspicion that they are playing with the calendar; and if they are, what happens if she is genuinely late when the child is born: the timescales will have been stretched too far, but that would be safely after the election ....
Obama is right that the privacy of Bristol should be respected: she is the one most badly affected by this. The problem is that her mother has put ambition before the good of her children in ways that open up far too many questions and that will sit uncomfortably with many.
But, events, as you say: Hanna is heading towards Savannah and is scheduled to be at least a Category 2 storm; Ike looks like it has got a rather open water trajectory through the Cuba-Florida straight. Perhaps by the weekend the news will return to there having been three hurricanes in a week.
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I am more concerned that Sarah Palin has been reported as being a "Creationalist".
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I sense this is just the tip of the iceberg. Everyone will wish for the best for this youngster and the remainder of the pregnancy and pray that whilst acknowledging facts and situations, that the media do not ‘over-top’ this emotional levee and precipitate a dangerous amount of distress for her well being and that of her child.
Could it have been that this news was not actually known about by Gov Palin herself before she was approached by John McCain? It is possible. If not, there is clearly much to be done on home shores. But if it was known, as reported, what does it say about the judgement of both Sen McCain and Gov Palin?
I don’t have any strident views on the Gov Palin track record. As an individual, she surely has more than enough on her plate at this time and focusing on and successfully juggling her career and domestic responsibilities as they currently stand would seem to me to be absolutely priority No1. Being catapulted now into the nest of vipers that is Washington as VP? - my waters tell me ‘certainly not yet’.
On John McCain I do have a view or three. First, is this well publicised reputation for short temper, single mindedness and apparently needing to feel ‘comfortable’ with those working with / for him a truism? I find it very curious that a wealth of well qualified, experienced, Republicans have either been sidelined or have opted to reject overtures to be his VP running mate. What does this tell us?
Does he have a problem working with mature experienced people that are more capable and don’t necessarily agree with him? Also, being such a senior and experienced GOP elder statesman, did he actually sit down with Gov Sara Palin and listen to and assess her situation and advise accordingly? I wonder frankly if any reservations and worries she might have had at that meeting were not literally filibustered out of the equation by a Sen McCain blinkered into grafting a profile such as hers onto his electoral bandwagon, as late as it was, at any cost?
Second, being a former Army officer myself, I understand fully his junior military service record x4 decades ago and the legacy of being a POW in Vietnam. But what I do feel is that this has zero bearing on his much repeated self suitability (over and above Sen Obama or anyone else) as the only qualified Commander In Chief in waiting?
As Clauswitz famously said ‘’War is a continuation of politics by other means’’…… the Presidential role is that of an astute, judgemental, effective statesman - a man revered and trusted at home and a man understood and highly respected abroad. In a new world in which traditional dynamics and relationships and threats have changed dramatically, this is not about John McCain leading the boys over the top and raising the US flag personally, Iwo Jima-style. It is about the USA winning back the fractured trust of many nations and their leaders. After the Iraq debacle, restoring the USA’s integrity and standing globally has to be priority No 1 – yes, the fresh ‘carrot’ in the making.
An effective Commander In Chief is one who is able to work hand in glove with his team of tri-service military chiefs. The words pragmatism, trust and mutual respect ring bells. Again, in today’s world, the C in C must have an absolute grasp of military technologies; capabilities and acknowledged shortfalls. Where situations and national security interests dictate, this trio, under the Secretary of State of Defense, are the executors of required US integrated military action almost certainly working within alliances with partners. The astute C in C will work to tailor and refine the ‘stick’ to back the carrot.
I would prefer not to see the GOP in this self made pickle. But with its chosen nominee effectively a re-tread from an earlier failed campaign and following in the wake of a man whose track record, performance and global reputation is, as is, the shrewd strategy must be to be focused on re-building and looking towards 2012 and a fresh start.
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Justin,
Despite the new accusations about your pro Obama bias, the older posters here know you are worried that your hopes about Mccain winning and the big dollar bet in the press group pot is looking far from secure.
Seeing the economic outlook and the present value of the dollar I can understand your worries concerning the ever rising schooling costs there, further complicated by the revelations about the Palin daughter.- Was moving your family West, for their education a good idea?
Many are disappointed with the time taken, or the lack of fairness sorting out the posts.
Despite being lauded as gods by Ed, everything still appears to be placed on hold for up to 65 minutes while a coffee break is taken?
I had been worried that this campaign would dig the dirt on the candidates wives, but now with another female in the ring everything is back to normal, though I did not expect any children to become fodder for the truths/smears, or the moderators to let some of it through the net.
Many posters here and other news outlets have been pushing the name Bristol..But why you? Then the penny dropped, and I got the subliminal message. Just down the road from BATH.
Could this be the crux of all the moderator problems?
Your colleagues are too busy helping you pack for the trip back to Blighty to sign and sell copies of the new book.
wma
ps. Have a nice day!
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#Economist123
You may feel that Justin Webb is 'left of centre' because by European standards US politics is right of centre. He looks pretty neutral to us!
And US citizens who support creationism need to understand that to many educated people on either continent this looks exactly like supporting teaching of a flat Earth.
Mind you making Alaska look bigger sounds the best reason I have ever heard, but of course it makes Canada look bigger, too - and Russia!
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It was the Anchorage Daily News that had investigated the smear that Sarah palin was not the mother of Trig.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YjAzODNmOTcxZWIwNDQwMWE4M2EwYWI1MTIyYjIyN2I=
Taking this together with a bunch of photos showing Sarah Palin looking pregnant in April 2008- against the smear from Kos Klowns - people can make their own mind up.
If people want to believe the Kos idiocy, that is their privilege. But I would have more faith in the BBC if it had checked things out locally - before giving the smear wider circulation. It was raised on BBC Breakfast this morning, for example, And it has been trotted out on Radio 5 Live, of course - par for the course.
I recall senior BBC executives saying that the BBC prefers to be a bit behind the news - to do some checking first. Eschewing tabloid journalism ?
I see nil sign that the BBC has done or is doing any fact-checking on the Kos smear. Which is a real drop in BBC standards - especially when set alongside the serious issues of judgment concerning Obama and Ayers, which the BBC has NEVER mentioned, on air or on the website.
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Teenage pregnancy is often associated with a child neglected at home seeking attention. We should therefore ask Sarah Palin about her priorities between her family responsibilities and those of her career.
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A useful website for Economist123:
http://www.penddraig.co.uk/pen/tests/sanity.htm
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It really is beginning to seem that McCain has created more problems for himself than he has answered by making this Palin pick.
The baby saga is just that - a saga, although it does call into question what guidance the girl was getting from her mother.
However it now transpires that as well as making overtures to Pat Buchanan, Palin was also considered to be a fellow traveller by the Alaskan Independence Party. The internet already has the McCain "Country First" slogan changed to "Alaska First".
To take on board someone who directly undermines the themes of your own presidential campaign is, to put it mildly, unhelpful.
And Palin's multi-party background leads to one of two conclusions : Either she is just an opportunist or else she has an untrained mind which she is unable to make up.
What voters have to decide is not just whether they like some of her political views - it is whether she has the moral and intellectual discipline for the job that she is applying for.
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#198, willsmac, I believe that the issue that
Economist123 is bringing up is specifically
that allegations are being made that Obama
has had repeated contacts with Communists
over his entire lifetime.
These are not within the spectrum of European
socialism. As I am sure that you are aware,
there is a difference between socialism of
the sort that you practice in Western Europe
and communism of the type which was
practiced by the Soviet Union.
And, Economist123 has brought up the point
that these links have not been systematically
examined by the media, and that this reveals
a bias.
As for myself, I haven't been able to figure this
out one way or the other. There is so much mud
flying around that every 5 minutes I need a new
pair of glasses.
Personally, I would like to see it examined
once and for all, so that we can see whether
it is a fiction of Rupert Murdock, or reality.
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Oh wow this is pretty hilarious, and the level of hypocrisy is even more hilarious.
To me it seems like the marriage is being forced upon the 17 year old, which is worse for the child, as im sure the child would have a better life being adopted by a loving family, rather then a makeshift teenage couple.
I don't see how this actually changes a lot of votes, but it is still a great footnote to the 2008 elections.
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I tend to agree with Obama on this-leave family members alone. More emphasis should be placed on her views and her alleged 'troopergate' involvement.
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#tuairimiocht
Fun except that penddraig shows a worrying inability to spell - is this a sign of insanity? Or even of left-wing bias?!
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Ahh, the "lets have a debate on the issues" campaign that precedes every political season has been abandoned, once again.
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It sort of reminds me of films like "Meet the Applegates" or "Serial Mom" where the outwardly respectable and normal family fall prey to vices of modern America. Having said that it does show a certain familiar dysfunctionality present in all families and that can play well to the electorate. After all Bush and Clinton remained popular and electable despite their human erring.
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PS. i am suspect of any woman with five children who holds down such a demanding, full time position as a governor, goes back to work three days after her latest is born and now is running for VP of a power nation?????!!!! she needs a reality check. so does mc cain. less than a million people live in alaska! 80% popularity rating??? hmmm. Reformer??? what happens if the so-called oldest president to be has a stroke on january 31, 2009???? this is scary material.
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How much more does Obama need to win this election? The economy is going downwards, there is an unpopular war. McCain has picked a Vice Presidential candidate that is under investigation for trying to get her ex-brother in law fired from the police force, her daughters pregnant, she does not believe in evolution, she is the most blatant political appointment. Even all with all this Obama has yet to pull away from his opponent.
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"Fun except that penddraig shows a worrying inability to spell - is this a sign of insanity? Or even of left-wing bias?!"
Ha ha! That explains "The Grauniad" then. And the fact that lefties tend to call people with whom they disagree "facsits" and "fashists". Socialism melts the brain you see. This has been proven on Conservapedia (see the Grauniad's diary last week).
However, to the (presumed) consternation of Economsit123, this theory fails to consider those pinko commies at the BBC, whose spelling is generally impeccable.
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The issue of Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy is a relevant political issue. It should be remembered that the conservative right in the US (and there is voice for this position in the UK, too) has a history of attacking unmarried mothers (and especially teenage unmarried mothers)as a drain on the public purse in instances where the remaining family are unable or unwilling to "help out". These attacks are often justified, as well, by expressions of moral outrage regarding the alleged sanctity of sexual intercourse as only legitimate in marriage. This thinking is a major part of political, Republican perspective.
Palin's lucky daughter will not be abandoned by her high profile, middle-class family (at least not as long as Sarah Palin's good image is required for the good effect of the Republican ticket), but that does not diminish the legitimate political issue that her pregnancy highlights, nor the hypocrisy of some of Sarah Palin's new supporters who now try to smooth their candidate's rough edges into an acceptable Republican image.
We should not attack her daughter, we should acknowlege, probe and criticise the cynical thinking of Sarah Palin's supporters (and possibly Sarah Palin, herself), which simultaneously allows her and her daughter to be acceptable while many other, less fortunate, young women are often viciously attacked and abandoned on moral/political grounds.
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I posted number 136 seven and a half hours ago. It raised questions of bias about BBC reporting.
Every post since then, up to 11.15am, has been allowed through by the moderators. Mine remains blocked.
It was in civil language. As far as I know it broke no rules.
Can Justin Webb or his moderators please explain why the post is being blocked ? More bias ? (You will have my email address if you need to tell me offline why the post has been blocked. Otherwise I will pursaue the issue through other BBC channels.
I contend that the BBC has failed to examine Obama's record properly, and has never revealed how far-left his agenda is. All we get is puff pieces, what a fine speaker, blah blah blah. Not even mention of how hopeless he is off Teleprompter. Not even regular reports on the state of polling.
The Wright affair was only reported on by the BBC when there was a flood of stories worldwide. There has not been one single item by the BBC, across all its outlets, on the Ayers issue - are we not allowed to be told of the extent of Obama's links with an unrepentant terrorist ? Amazing.
The BBC is a huge news organisation - the biggest in the world, I believe. It has treated Obama with extreme deference, almost fawning. I cannot recall seeing a single original piece on Obama from the BBC, either broadcast or on the website. It is all superficial, derivative.
But now the BBC plays a family pregnancy issue round the clock on every channel.. Retailing again and again and again the filthy smear that Trig is not Sarah Palin's child.
Disgraceful.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Zjk4MGVmNGI4OThkZTRjNDNmYmY0MDM5ZjM3MzQwNDg=
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# 212 mixwell
Interesting observation. It seems to make all the difference when you are perceived to be "one of us".
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214
Read the blog. I posted a stack of photos showing Governor Palin looking pregnant.
If you can't contradict those photos - quit the smearing.
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# 213
Ayers was notorious when Obama was 8 years old.
Most of us have moved on a little since then and try to live in the here and now.
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Typically another hypocritical move by the Republicans we have learned to distrust and hate over the years.
They are the first to judge others for actions not fitting to their beliefs and views until it affects them directly.
Was it that Sarah Palin missed out the "birds and the bees" story between church service and what about the message of safe sex? With the alarming escalation of STDs especially in teenagers throughout the US, surely this is a negative message to be sending out to the America's next generation.....?
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Obama's dealings with Ayers were in the 1990s and beyond. When Obama was operating politically in Chicago.
Ayers to this day is unrepentant about being a terrorist.
All amply documented.
Yet the BBC glides straight past it. Not one single word - even to discount it.
Sheer bias - or is it simply negligent journalism ? The BBC has been headlining the US election day in, day out, and now giving oxygen on all channels to a filthy smear about the Palin family. But Obama remains unexamined.
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I had not been aware that there was a movement for Alaskan independence. You live and learn. Does anyone know if it is a serious political party or a bunch of nutters (wouldn't look good for Palin's credibility for her to be associated with a fringe group)?
Do any other states have independence movements?
Just speculating hypothetically - what good reason would there be to refuse Alaska (or any other state) independence if (and I'm imagining it to be unlikely) the people there democratically expressed the will to be an independent nation?
Of course the US could always sell it back to the Russians - one way to bring down the deficit.
You're all doing very well !!
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Yesterday rumors were rife that La Palins new "daughter" was in fact Bristol's. Today Bristol is suddenly 5 months pregnant. Convenient that its 5 months, because the baby will not be due till after the election.
Now maybe the rumors were wrong but this is as fishy as bouillabaisse at the moment.
Leaving aside this juicy morsel about the perils of being the child of fundamentalists, can anyone really imagine this joker as POTUS? Bush was bad enough but this woman is even more credulous in her beliefs and even more lacking in experience.
Hopefully a nail in the republican campaign's coffin.
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It just gets better: this from the NY Times.
The Palins eloped on Aug. 29, 1988, and their first son, Track, was born eight months later, a fact that Maria Comella of the McCain campaign, declined to elaborate on.
It would seem to run in the family ...
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Wow, unbelievable. I am in shock. Maybe McCain is senile from old age and forgot about the pregnancy.
There is no way that Sarah can be an effective VP and also a supporting mother. This pregnancy shows that she "has not" already been there for Bristol to provide the needed mother counselling, moral teaching etc. How will she be there for her children when they need her. Does she even care about that?
What does this say about American society and family values?!
What if McCain gets ill and incapable of leading the country. Will Sarah's stress level break and leave us ungoverned? Wait I need to babysit my daughter's child.
Or,...perhaps McCain just loves pretty ladies :P
Come on America. Wake up. Being a war veteran and POW does not automatically make you a competent president. Perhaps it was his ignorance that got him in POW in the first place.
Make the right choice now and avoid problems later. The American reputation and respect around the world is sufficiently damaged already. If we continue with conservative undiplomatic Bush politics the formula for our destiny is McCain=Bush=War with Russia=WWIII.
We need new generation ideas to handle todays complicated domestic and foreign problems!
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ref #182
Euroyank do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Question does Al Jazeera even take Israel's side against the terrorists?
Fox News is more evenhanded than CNN or MSNBC, look at the range of reporters and commentators.
All 5 of the Gilf area Govenors happen to be Republicans that is why there are there.
Finally it was proved that all level were at fault in Katrina but primarily blame was Ray Nagin and Kathleen blanco's.
Go back to writing with crayons
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ref #165
I never said Palin was qualified it just butress my argument that neither is Obama.
About his community work his major housing iniative? It boarded up and abandoned
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#213 John AAA wrote:
I posted number 136 seven and a half hours ago. It raised questions of bias about BBC reporting.
Every post since then, up to 11.15am, has been allowed through by the moderators. Mine remains blocked.
It was in civil language. As far as I know it broke no rules.
Can Justin Webb or his moderators please explain why the post is being blocked ? More bias ? (You will have my email address if you need to tell me offline why the post has been blocked. Otherwise I will pursaue the issue through other BBC channels.
I contend that the BBC has failed to examine Obama's record properly, and has never revealed how far-left his agenda is. All we get is puff pieces, what a fine speaker, blah blah blah. Not even mention of how hopeless he is off Teleprompter. Not even regular reports on the state of polling.
The Wright affair was only reported on by the BBC when there was a flood of stories worldwide. There has not been one single item by the BBC, across all its outlets, on the Ayers issue - are we not allowed to be told of the extent of Obama's links with an unrepentant terrorist ? Amazing.
The BBC is a huge news organisation - the biggest in the world, I believe. It has treated Obama with extreme deference, almost fawning. I cannot recall seeing a single original piece on Obama from the BBC, either broadcast or on the website. It is all superficial, derivative.
But now the BBC plays a family pregnancy issue round the clock on every channel.. Retailing again and again and again the filthy smear that Trig is not Sarah Palin's child.
Disgraceful.
..........................
The only disgraceful thing about this is the manufactured outrage of a supporter of a party infamous for its evil smearing tactics. The Ayers story is McCarthyite trash from a desperate bunch of far right lunatics. Ayers is now and has been for many years a distinguished academic. The nature of his work and the area where he lived mean that Obama and he were bound to have met and worked together. This fact says nothing about Obama and everything about the insane obsessions of rightwing bloggers fighting the cold war 20 years after it finished. On the other hand the Palin story is totally relevant as her "moral majority" values are being paraded as virtues in this campaign. Once you do this your personal life is fair game.
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# 223
I urge anyone still making their mind up about their choice to look at this morning's interview with Obama on CNN.
A potential President ? I'd say so !
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To jacksforge:
I am sorry not to have replied to your earlier question earlier.
What I meant was that if you narrow the gene pool by wanting, say, blonde hair and blue eyes, then you risk that group you have created becoming extinct. That is because if the genes that allow blue eyes and blonde hair exclude those that defend you against some disease, for instance, then if that disease hits that group they will all die out.
If you extend that principle to the whole human race, as Hitler apparently wanted to do, then the whole race could die out. I therefore believe genetic diversity is A Good Thing.
Incidentally, Mr Palin apparently won a race called the 'Iron Dog'. Opportunity for some new products perhaps ?
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Why has no-one commented on the ridiculous names the Palins have given their children? Saddling your offspring with names like Bristol and Trig really gives you the impression they care more about themselves and their little fantasies, and not how vulnerable kids might feel (unless of course these are normal in northern exposure-land)
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Ref 219
"But Obama remains unexamined"
You can't be serious! Obama's persona, color, name, religious convictions, cultural background, his childhood, education, political proposals, friends, neighbors, colleagues and his $1 million "mansion", such as it is, have been debated to the point of being debilitating.
In reality, the one that had a free ride until very recently was John McCain, whose gaffes (Sunni-Shiites, Iraq/Afghanistan border, Viagra, real estate) are dismissed as campaign fatigue and, therefore, inconsequential.
Our focus should be on the policies of both candidates, although issues of character, judgment, and relevant experience must also be debated and assessed for obvious reasons.
I was unable to open the website you cited in an earlier message. If the photos were taken in Houston and have a date or some form of identification, I apologize for the comment I made earlier. Nevertheless, I find her decision to travel such a long distance while she was in labor, and the fact that the airline allowed her to board, truly amazing and a reflection of poor judgment. I doubt many women in her condition would have taken such risk.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh God I lol'd! Let's hear it for abstinence only sex ed! It clearly works!
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JohnAAA - omg give it a rest!! Just googled Ayers as I had not heard of him before. Sounds like you are scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to tie BHO with something nasty. Much easier to do with the current Republican regime and their "terrorist" acts all over the world in much more recent times!
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ref #226
Ayers is an academic that is all. Considering academics include Ayers, churchill, Chomsky and the Duke 88 it is not a recomendation
Ayers never apologized for his terrorist acts and got of on a technicality
It goes back to the question of Obama's judgement
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#210 - Knoppert
*even all with all of this Obama has yet to pull away from his opponent*
---------------
Remember a week is a long time in politics! With x8 long weeks to go, we have entered a phase akin to the WWII phoney war and, yes, the media will be working overtime to whip up anything and everything to keep the race as close as possible!
Don't know about you, but swirling around the old tea leaves tells me this. In the hard light of day, come the election, the Bush legacy, emerging facts and realities re: the GOP ticket will bring USA Inc to its senses.
Many more than currently predicted will make a rational and clear choice for President. It will be a historic defining moment and, yes, it will be the right decision, universally welcomed, globally.
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#223, RogelioM :
No, in America a persons private life is private. You know better.
Doesn't this same bigoted argument disqualify all women from public office? She might get pregnant again! Oh my!
How do you know? Maybe Bristol ignored her mothers advice. Now, if Bristol had been whisked away for a secret abortion, that would be hypocritical.
There is a problem, which Sarah know first hand. Did you know that 70 percent of black children are born out of wedlock?
Don't worry, McCain can make if for four years. You really are being sexist here. Don't you know that when it comes to first family babysitting, it's coordinated by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
More so than community organizing in Chicago, but admittedly both are war zones. I don't think his flying skills will be required anymore. Ignorance is demonstrated more by a lack of knowledge.
That's ludicrous. McCain is not Bush.
Please research the people Obama has surrounded himself with. They are the shed skin of the progressive democrat party elite, like Tom Daschle. How is that change?
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But the Ayers issue has NOT been debated or covered by the BBC. Not one single jot. It is directly relevant to what Obama was actually doing in Chicago. Relevant to his real beliefs - the things he actually pushed, not what he now says he will do.
It may all be entirely harmless, innocent. Even if this were the case - shouldn't we know what was happening - and did it achieve anything for all that expenditure ?
If so - why is the Obama campaign trying so hard to muzzle free comment, free discussion ?
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Why is it that when an issue like this comes up, for the Republicans its a private matter but for the Democrats its a moral failing?! What hypocrisy!
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"Why has no-one commented on the ridiculous names the Palins have given their children? Saddling your offspring with names like Bristol and Trig..."
SheikSimon, I believe names like "Camden" and "Bristol" are quite popular in the US. However, I am quite surprised that other English towns do not enjoy such popularity as American girls' names. Towns such as Ugly and Catbrain have long been passed over in this regard. Time to rectify this perhaps?
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I wonder why no one has ever raised issue with Biden's support for the Iraq war?
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ref #64 Magic / whiner, #94 Katrina
Thank you for addressing the whiners.
The whiners are looking for any reason to be vocally offended. They even take offense that you are offended about their tenacity to be offended.
We salute them all with a capital, "L".
Thank you for addressing Katrina - Nagin and Blanco redirected the levee funding prior to Katrina to unrelated purposes. New Orleans Zoning Department gave waivers (favors) to developers to allow building in flood plains.
Until the money diverting local governments are curtailed, it does not make sense to throw money at New Orleans. For now, we would have to set up a local government just to keep their local government from siphoning (more) money.
ref #77
Republican Standards? I agree it is half hearted.
Republicans should let it be dragged through an inquiry, deny, discredit, distract, denigrate, then ultimately lie while under oath. Meanwhile. her spouse can expound that, "It is a left-wing conspiracy.".
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#241, tuairimiocht;
As I frequently tell my children, Scratchy Bottom, and Twatt, you were named after the cities where you were conceived.
:) Cheers!
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235
You googled Ayers. So you found there are now thousands of referwences to Obama's links with Ayers.
My entire point here is thst this is an issue - on which there can be different views.
The BBC has totally avoided the issue.
Which is negligent journalism in my book.
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Magic Kirin wrote:
Ayers is an academic that is all. Considering academics include Ayers, churchill, Chomsky and the Duke 88 it is not a recomendation
Ayers never apologized for his terrorist acts and got of on a technicality
It goes back to the question of Obama's judgement
JohnAAA wrote: But the Ayers issue has NOT been debated or covered by the BBC. Not one single jot. It is directly relevant to what Obama was actually doing in Chicago. Relevant to his real beliefs - the things he actually pushed, not what he now says he will do.
It may all be entirely harmless, innocent. Even if this were the case - shouldn't we know what was happening - and did it achieve anything for all that expenditure ?
If so - why is the Obama campaign trying so hard to muzzle free comment, free discussion ?
......................
It hasn't been muzzled or blocked. The Obama campaign has pointed out the smears claiming that Ayers "launched Obama" The truth is this:
Ayers' contacts with the 2008 Democratic Nominee for President of the United States, Barack Obama became controversial in the 2008 United States presidential election. The two served together on the Woods Fund Board from 1999 until Obama left in 2002. Ayers had other contact with Obama as a resident of Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, including hosting a candidate reception attended by Obama early in Obama's first Illinois state Senate campaign in 1995, appearing on education panels together, and donating $200 to Obama's campaign in April 2001.
Now the right wing loons can try to make this into Obama friend of terrorists but as Ayers was not convicted and was involved with Obama only to this extent, it shows this is a smear nothing more. Such a smear is not worthy of coverage by the BBC. Incidentally the BBC has published nothing about the allegations that Palin's latest child is in fact Bristol's either.
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Did you know;
- that Joe Biden's son Hunter is a Washington lobbyist. Since 2002, the firm Hunter Biden co-founded has represented a major constituent of Joe Biden's, the University of Delaware, which has collected millions in federal funding.
- Donations to Biden's campaigns totaling more than $200,000 in the past two decades from Delaware-based MBNA, the credit card company, and a similar amount from trial lawyers, including Richard "Dickie" Scruggs, one of the three men implicated in the Mississippi bribery scheme.
- The FBI have wiretapped Timothy Balducci and former Mississippi State Auditor Steve Patterson in September 2007 while the FBI was investigating a bribery scheme that toppled Scruggs, Mississippi's most prominent lawyer. During the conversation, Balducci tells Patterson that he was told "we really need to push on the Senate bill" and "get your man in line in the House if this comes out of the Senate," according to the transcript. On the tape, Balducci says he had spoken by phone to Jim Biden, Sen. Biden's brother, "and we're gonna meet the Bidens around noon," according to the transcript.
See, this is the kind of muck raking that is important to a campaign. Not a discussion of whether Sarah had informed her daughter about contraception. Sarah now has first hand experience regarding the importance of contraception training to minors. Will this make her a better VP?
Bonus question: Which candidate said about their high school years, "Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though."?
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245 John Ayers
You googled Ayers. So you found there are now thousands of referwences to Obama's links with Ayers.
My entire point here is thst this is an issue - on which there can be different views.
The BBC has totally avoided the issue.
Which is negligent journalism in my book.
.....................
Googling is so much fun. There are 1000000 references to Obama as the antichrist on the web. I DEMAND that the BBC cover this very important story. 200m Americans will go to the polls in November, without the BBC telling them that many important websites (loads with rapture or endtimes in the URL) claim that this man is the son of Satan himself. The BBC must be in league with the Devil. Beelzebub Broadcasting Company?
Or maybe, just maybe the BBC can sort the wheat from the chaff and report on real news. They certainly covered the Wright Story, the Michele stories and the Obama unpatriotic stories amongst others.
Aphorism of the day: The obsessions of far right talk show hosts and bloggers do not current affairs make
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Sarah Palin's last pregnancy was reported in some detail in the Anchorage Daily News – which is, I think, in danger of becoming the current campaign oracle. It does not look very controversial. It said something like this
Palin was in Texas last week for an energy conference of the National Governors Association when she experienced signs of early labor. She wasn't due for another month.
Early Thursday -- she thinks it was around 4 a.m. Texas time -- she consulted with her doctor, family physician Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who is based in the Valley and has delivered lots of babies, including Piper, Palin's 7-year-old.
Palin said she felt fine but had leaked amniotic fluid and also felt some contractions that seemed different from the false labor she had been having for months.
"I said I am going to stay for the day. I have a speech I was determined to give," Palin said. She gave the luncheon keynote address for the energy conference.
Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said.
"Things were already settling down when she talked to me," Baldwin-Johnson said. Palin did not ask for a medical OK to fly, the doctor said.
"I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," Baldwin-Johnson said.
So the Palins flew on Alaska Airlines from Dallas to Anchorage, stopping in Seattle and checking with the doctor along the way.
"I am not a glutton for pain and punishment. I would have never wanted to travel had I been fully engaged in labor," Palin said. After four kids, the governor said, she knew what labor felt like, and she wasn't in labor.
Still, a Sacramento, Calif., obstetrician who is active in the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, said when a pregnant woman's water breaks, she should go right to the hospital because of the risk of infection. That's true even if the amniotic fluid simply leaks out, said Dr. Laurie Gregg.
"To us, leaking and broken, we are talking the same thing. We are talking doctor-speak," Gregg said.
Some airlines have policies against pregnant women onboard during the last four weeks of pregnancy, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists advises against flying after 36 weeks.
This was going to be Palin's last flight anyway, her doctor said.
Alaska Airlines has no such rule and leaves the decision to the woman and her doctor, said spokeswoman Caroline Boren. Palin was very pleasant to the gate agents and flight attendants, as always, Boren said.
"The stage of her pregnancy was not apparent by observation. She did not show any signs of distress," Boren said.
Palin never got big with this pregnancy. She said she didn't try to hide it but didn't feel a need to alert the airline, either.
They landed in Anchorage around 10:30 p.m. Thursday and an hour later were at the Mat-Su Regional Medical Center in Wasilla.
Baldwin-Johnson said she had to induce labor, and the baby didn't come until 6:30 a.m. Friday.
"It was smooth. It was relatively easy," Palin said. "In fact it was the easiest of all," probably because Trig was small, at 6 pounds, 2 ounces.
Palin said she wanted him born in Alaska but wouldn't have risked anyone's health to make that happen.
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The BBC has allowed the Palin smear to be voiced on its channelks, usually without any contradiction or query. It is all over here at this blog, and it has been discussed by BBC presenters.
Yet nothing about Ayers has been covered anywhere, anytime by the BBC.
Real double standards.
It is ridiculous to suggest that Ayers was innocent of terrorism. He was up to his neck in it. He freely admits it. So does his partner. - who was convicted. Obama had a political campaign launched in their house, there is quite a nexus of dealings between them. And the Anneberg work they were both involved spent $100 million and was adjudged by auditors to be a failure.
I submit that all this is more worthy of examination and report by the BBC tnan a teenager getting pregnant. The BBC has been down in the gutter on this.
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#242 - Realfrigid
*I wonder why no one has ever raised issue with Biden's support for the Iraq war*
----------
Go carefully Realfrigid on this little number.
The most important question by far is this - how far down the seniority food chain the actual truths and facts about what WMD Iraq and Saddam did NOT have, actually went?
Whilst Saddam, his evil sons and certain henchman were reviled and quite understandably, the real casualty here was, and still is, the TRUTH. Yes, the truth about the REAL motives for embarking on a short military campaign that was easily won but a tiny facet of an incredibly important instrument of foreign policy that was bereft of even a short, medium or longer term post conflict strategy? The families of the 3000+ US troops lost over the last x5 years and those of its allies would be sure interested to know?
..... and Joe Biden? I suspect one of the many decent and responsible members of the Senate and other governments, worldwide, who based their support on tailored briefings, crafted and designed to carefully garner their backing. If the real facts had been presented and the campaign not carried politically and prosecuted as a result....... where would *World Inc* be now??
Americans might wish to re-visit this little nugget from the Republican legacy when staring at their ballot papers shortly?
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This little saga goes some way to explain the 'vice' in Vice-President.
Personally, I can't understand how someone can oppose abortion AND the use of condoms at the same time. Surely if one is uncomfortable with the idea of eliminating an entire human life when it has barely begun, one should promote the use of contraceptives?
Number of teenage pregnancies per million inhabitants in some selected countries:
Canada - 607
Australia - 589
Netherlands - 172
Poland - 788
USA - 1,671
Source: UNICEF Innocenti Research Centre
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#203 and earlier gunsandreligion
I am with you on the general mud movement. I suppose mud has its place in every election but you still feel dirty handling it. So the communist Obama and Alaskan Independence Palin stuff…
Form a UK perspective we have the independence movement in Scotland which is not particularly controversial. The Labour Party was also heavily infiltrated by Trotskyists at one time, mostly the Labour Party Young Socialists. There's nothing controversial about that, look up 'Militant Tendency' if you want to know more.
I have personal experience of that because I worked with them in the 'Get Britain Out' (of the EEC) campaign in 1975. They were a pretty radical lot but you know, people change.
Personally, if I were American I would not care if Barack Obama were a communist in his youth as long as it had no sinister overtones – like being in the pay of a country foreign to the USA. Ditto Sarah Palin and the Alaska Independence Party. I don't disagree about the 'political sophistication' thing but I do not necessarily see a lack of political sophistication in this sense as a bad thing. I am a conflicted individualist. We're like that.
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Realfrigid wrote Bonus question: Which candidate said about their high school years, "Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though."?
That'll be Obama. Its called honesty. Hardly a revelation, Obama wrote this himself in a book he published. It ain't a secret.
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"Did you know;
- that Joe Biden's son Hunter is a Washington lobbyist. Since 2002, the firm Hunter Biden co-founded has represented a major constituent of Joe Biden's, the University of Delaware, which has collected millions in federal funding."
Shyold Mr Bliden not try to get federal funds for his constituents?
And does it compare to Vice President Cheynes interest in haliburton, a company that was given contracts in the Iraq conflict without tender.
"- Donations to Biden's campaigns totaling more than $200,000 in the past two decades from Delaware-based MBNA, the credit card company, and a similar amount from trial lawyers, including Richard "Dickie" Scruggs, one of the three men implicated in the Mississippi bribery scheme."
"- The FBI have wiretapped Timothy Balducci and former Mississippi State Auditor Steve Patterson in September 2007 while the FBI was investigating a bribery scheme that toppled Scruggs, Mississippi's most prominent lawyer. During the conversation, Balducci tells Patterson that he was told "we really need to push on the Senate bill" and "get your man in line in the House if this comes out of the Senate," according to the transcript. On the tape, Balducci says he had spoken by phone to Jim Biden, Sen. Biden's brother, "and we're gonna meet the Bidens around noon," according to the transcript."
Sorry where is the illegality in this? This seems like a silly arrempt at smearing.
$200,000 in two decades? that hardly seems a vast sum. And in any case it agains does not compare to the vast sums teh oil companies etc poured into repulbican coffers in the futile fight to prove climate change did not exist.
"See, this is the kind of muck raking that is important to a campaign. Not a discussion of whether Sarah had informed her daughter about contraception. Sarah now has first hand experience regarding the importance of contraception training to minors. Will this make her a better VP?"
But the problem is that Sara Palin has taken a very hard-line view regarding personal morality. She is apparently preopared to judgeothers, in which case her own judgement will be called into question.
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At first I was amused. Now, as a woman, I feel just ... bitterly dismayed. It is the dark ages for women in America. Beauty queen, anti-environment, creationist mother of five including underage pregnant daughter - our first woman vice president heralding us into in the 21st century. A stark and ugly display of how conservatives view women. What is happening in this country?
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A lot of the references to Ayers and Obama in the US media are not by right-wing media.
The failure of the Obama / Ayers work on the $100 million funding was declared by auditors - not bloggers.
That Ayers is a terrorist is undeniable. That Obama has had far closer dealings with him than the Obama gloss has give is also undeniable. That Ayers is a far-left radical activist is also undeniable.
Obama "the Moderate" has tried to suggest that Ayers is just a glancing acquaintance. That is a porkie. What is he trying to back away from ? And why is the BBC complicit in this by its silence ?
trying to minimise this by saying that the BBC should go chasing every hare is stupid. But there are some issues of character, of judgment, that the BBC should pursue. The BBC failed to follw the Wright story until it was forced by events to do so.
And I predict that the same will happen over Ayers.
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This should be a non-issue. The best president the US has had in the last 20 years indulged in some extra-curricular under the desk activity while in office and it did not affect his ability to lead. However this highlights the hipocrisy in the republican party choosing a candidate who is evidently not the most qualified person in the party to fulfill the role of VP; especially considering Mr. McCain's age and health and the fact that he hinted that he would not in fact seek a second term if elected come this November.
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141. "It certainly would change the perception by her own party that she is a good, upstanding Christian woman"
You're mistaking your values for theirs. They will respect her because she took responsibility for her decision and didn't abort the baby.
The irony in all this is that no one would say one word if she were an African-American teenager who got pregnant and decided to have an abortion.
Only certain groups fall under that big umbrella of tolerance, I guess.
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HO Ho Ho republican Hipocrtis. Moral values are coverd up by pro life discussions.
Pregnancy without wedding bells is socially , morally, ethically relegiously wrong. Well compare this to the sect in texas where 17 years girls were having babies. Palin's family is no differnt than this. Morally corrupt American society is exposing there bellies in proud conventions and promoting teenage pregnancies in the name of prolife.
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#251, Bill;
It is possible that, in regards to WMD, Saddam fooled everyone. Bush and Congress's failure then was in swallowing the bait, and getting reeled into an unnecessary war. Recrimination's aside, Bush didn't launch this war alone, he had congressional help.
As chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee he would has access to the same intelligence(CIA, DIA, NSA) that was available to the White House.
Peruse that web sight at leisure. Mr. Biden's viewpoints on Iraq in many ways mirror my own.
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#260, alnadeen,
"Pregnancy without wedding bells is socially , morally, ethically religiously wrong. "
Are you without sin?
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"But the problem is that Sara Palin has taken a very hard-line view regarding personal morality. She is apparently prepared to judge others, in which case her own judgment will be called into question."
Has she? Where was that shown in her statement, or policy decisions in Alaska?
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#255, Simon21;
"This seems like a silly arrempt at smearing."
EXACTLY!!!
Welcome to the pig pen.
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AndreainNY wrote:
141. "It certainly would change the perception by her own party that she is a good, upstanding Christian woman"
You're mistaking your values for theirs. They will respect her because she took responsibility for her decision and didn't abort the baby.
The irony in all this is that no one would say one word if she were an African-American teenager who got pregnant and decided to have an abortion.
Only certain groups fall under that big umbrella of tolerance, I guess.
.......................
When an african-american teenager in those circumstances, is standing for election as VP, and using her "moral" stance as bait, then maybe there would be some comment?
And frankly the religious right scream about abortion every day, and when you get that strange conjunction of racism and warped religion that is "white nationalist christianity" they certainly have a hell of a lot to say about black teens, sex and abortion.
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when it comes to american politics, I am always laughing because it is just the best theatre play of the four years.
It is sad however that the fates of millions of families are in the hands of say no more than 40 millions americans who are fanatic political supporters.
And now this...Palin? A governor of the state of Alaska...wow...that's a challenge!
The republicans are desperately trying to win the women's votes. For the sake of America and the world, I hope American women are intelligent enough to read into this republican trick.
Politics is not about gender. It is not about color. It is not about the family values of one or two families or a teenage pregnancy. It is about millions of families, and as soon as Americans understand that and start to see past Obama, Mccain, Biden, and Palin, the better it will be.
It so happens to be that Obama/Biden offer America what it needs most and I hope America gives them the chance.
McCain though he is hailed as a hero in the military field, is hardly my everyday hero. But than again, my definition of heroes differs. McCain is a war hero, but I would rather have peace heroes.
Some of you are comparing Palin to Clinton. Please don't. It might be a good idea to invest in personal education first before making such comparisons. Intelligence is an eyeopener.
Anyhow, I hope the women in america choose wisely. This is not about making history, it is about making life better for millions of families in a country that is struggling and loosing face in the world.
If americans go to vote with the idea that by choosing an African American for president they will make history, or that by choosing a woman as VP they will make history, than I am sorry.
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#254, The Notting Hill Hammer:
"Its called honesty."
I agree. It's the past and people learn and grow from their mistakes. We are not electing a Pope who represents our moral virtues.
I don't care that Biden forgot to give credit to Neil Kinnock during a speech. I don't care that Mr. Palin got a DUI when he was 22 years old. I don't care that Bristol's pregnant. I don't care that Obama or Bush used drugs and alcohol when they were younger.
What is important are policies, and where these candidates will lead you into the future.
Character assassination is stupid, and ugly!
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I have just read a report that Rush Limbaugh has said that he cannot support Sarah Palin. Whaaaaaat !
If that is correct then there really is trouble brewing.
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Manage your family, then manage your country.
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As goleooo said, I hope women in America will choose wisely. A candidate to lead the country must just be the right person. And - a more intelligent and capable person than the rest of us. If a CEO of a company were being selected, there would be no criteria stipulating that they be just like any other employee. Somehow in America, it appears that this logic does not apply to presidential candidates - we want someone who is like the "rest of us". Smacks of ego and insecurity.
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217, wanderingangus: "Ayers was notorious when Obama was 8 years old.
Most of us have moved on a little since then and try to live in the here and now."
I personally could never "move on" to the point where I would knowingly associate with someone who would kill like that.
This is typical Obama. No principled stands. Just dreamy idealism and opportunism.
His campaign, however, is a different story. Its worked hard to keep the records of Obama's time as chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge out of the press' hands. The Annenberg Challenge was founded by Ayers to improve Chicago schools. The Daley Library, in fact, cut off public access to those records, which have now been released.
Obama stopped mentioning this on his resume. Easier to just call "Ayers" a neighbor.
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263 by RealFrigid ignores the basc Obama supporter theme. Actions don't come into this, only words. We want to demonise Palin, so she is a creationist who wants to ram this down everyones throats (nevermind her saying that she was not gong to try to impose her view, and nevermind that she has not tried to impose her view).
She is an exreme right winger, nevermind none of her actions in office support this 'belief'.
She is corrupt because she fired someone who wouldn't fire her brother in law, nevermind her numerous actions in exposing corruption, and the clear case against her brother-in-law, if anyone even bothered to check this out.
She is a hypocrite because she believes in abstinence before marriage, nevermind that her daughter would not have got pregnant if she had listened to her mother.
Most of the posts on this thread have nothing to do with facts, but just reveal the posters own prejudices and irrationality. Michael Moore should do a documentary on them, maybe calling it "sicko".
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It scares me to think that my fellow Americans would vote for someone who would make such terrible decisions in their personal lives.
I am pregnant and 38. I have been trying to have a baby for 7 years. As any educated woman, I understand the risks of downs syndrome and this will be my last pregnancy no matter the ourcome.
I am pro choice. I have worked with handicapped children and would not abort a downs syndrome baby. What if Palin's child had trisomy 18 (like in my previous pregnancy) and the ultrasounds showed a child in pain. A child that would unlikely survive to birth and would certainly die very shortly afterward?
Before I was married, I was very careful with birth control. With my own morals, it would have been unacceptable for me to become pregnant before marriage. Obviously Palin does not share these morals. She was pregnant when she married her husband. Now continuing her upbringing her daughter is pregnant before her marriage. Shouldn't we end this reckless behaviour instead or rewarding it with praise.
My niece is severely handicapped. She needs a lot of help, from her parents, especially her mother. To dump a child with these kind of difficulties on a nanny is disgusting. Family should always come first. If Palin can't take care of hers how can I trust her to take care of mine.
Biden and Obama are family men that work within the bounds of their families to have a well balanced life. I admire them.
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RF (#267), yes, it is the policies that are important. The problem is that some politicians, notably "evangelicals" and "pro-lifers," have policies of legislating morality for others. Palin is an advocate of teaching abstinence and an opponent of teaching other methods of birth control to teens. Her policies in that area don't work.
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I can’t believe some of these comments.
1. Firstly, I think Obama was completely correct to say ‘don’t go there’.
2. Sarah Palin’s not the one being hypocritical: hypocrisy is promoting sex-ed in the classroom but regarding teenage pregnancy as ‘sinful’, abortion as a panacea, the child as a ‘burden’, the girl as ‘oppressed’, the parents as ‘irresponsible’. It’s an ideologue’s reaction to a world view that doesn’t happen to be their own.
3. What happened to a right to choose? I suppose it only works one way right?
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John McCain is 71 and has a poor health record. Should he fall seriously ill or die, Sarah Palin would become President. She may be as sweet as apple pie, or the Alaskan equivalent but her elevation to being the President of what is still the most militarily and economically powerful country in the world is frightening.
The US has a penchant for interfering everywhere to force its views and often infiltrates its goods into other economies and uses its media awareness for its own selfish ends. If this mixed-up woman with her inability to 'manage' her family problems were given the power to pursue her ideas without the wisdom of a long slow climb to power, God help America (and the whole world).
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#276, artafallie :
"She may be as sweet as apple pie, or the Alaskan equivalent but her elevation to being the President of what is still the most militarily and economically powerful country in the world is frightening."
Now apply your argument to Obama. He is #1 on the ticket. Biden has the experience, but really, Obama does not.
Obama: Social activism, 1 1/2 terms as a state back bench congressman, then 2 years in the Senate.
Palin: Social activism, 2 terms as a town mayor, then 2 years as Governor.
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#253, chill0, I don't know if you are still reading
this thread, but you'll have to understand that
both charges are fairly serious to an American.
As far as the Alaskan Independence thing:
Once you become a state, that's the end of
the matter. A state cannot secede because then
it is violating the federal civil rights of its citizens.
That's why the Union would not allow the South
to secede. The Union won. End of story.
Now, as far as the communist thing:
The Weathermen and SDS were not labor
union organizers. And, being a communist
is not an "innocent" thing like it could be
in Europe. We fought a long, bitter war
with what was initially a Communist Bloc.
This war was mostly cold, but sometimes it
went hot (Korea, Vietnam).
Now that we are in a somewhat adversarial
relationship with one of the former members
of this bloc, whose leader was in the KGB,
Obama's repeated involvement with Communist
figures bears investigation.
There has been investigation of some of these
people (including Ayers) but not of the links
between Obama and them by the mainstream
media.
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#274, Gary_A_Hill:
Which policies are the ones that legislate morality?
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272, seanspa:
"She is corrupt because she fired someone who wouldn't fire her brother in law, nevermind her numerous actions in exposing corruption, and the clear case against her brother-in-law, if anyone even bothered to check this out."
There was an investigation. Where is the indictment?
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Has anyone posting here ever had moose? As a steak, it's ok but nowhere near as good as elk. As a burger though it's pretty good. Don't sniff at it until you've tried it!
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Palin's daughter brings to discussion an important element that Democrats and in particular Obama has always talked about. We all remember his historical speeches calling on parents and especially fathers to take up their parental roles as role models "Government will not turn off your TVs for your child to do school homework and parent must take this responsibility" this is what the presidential nominee calls individual and mutual responsibilities of the Americans Citizens. I can sympathize with Palin's Standings with this historical statements having publicly be shown to have failed the test. But is this the time to tell the Republicans that they goofed on picking Palin and need to redraw on their weaknesses of using rushed and barely uninformed research to tackle issues. Bush goofed by attacking iraq based on the same weaknesses. I hope with Obama on the way things are meant to change.
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279 RealFrigid, you're doing it again. Facts are just a smokescreen to hide what they are really doing.
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The pregnancy could be seen as bad politically in that if this was unknown about her, what else could there be? But that's about it.
As Justin states, the decision to keep and not terminate the child is a plus from an evangelical (and, more broadly, devout Christian, Jewish, and Muslim) perspective. For those looking for personality and 'connection' in and with a candidate, this makes Palin appear to align even more with ordinary Americans.*
What Obama had to say, basically telling the media to give this a rest, was kind, but there was little else he could do. What, was he supposed to argue that this is why McCain and Palin shouldn't be voted into office? That wouldn't have gone down too [great]. Obama's statement was the equivalent of the Republicans toning down their convention because of Hurricane Gustav, respectful, but they didn't have much of a choice.
*Personally have the opinion that politicians should be voted solely on their stances on issues, not because they seem kind or friendly. For instance, voted for Bush even though his personality seemed to be a bit rough, even bullying.
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If I heard correctly, history repeats... Palin was pregnant when she got married at a young age. Parents are always forcing their kids to follow in their footsteps. So what's next for the beleaguered daughter? A beauty pageant?
I think Obama had it right when he said kids are off-limits.
The problem is, Palin herself if not off limits and her daughter's pregnancy does reflect on her (the conservative theme of abstinence) and her history (shotgun wedding?).
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#273, lbrogowski:
My experience is similar to yours. My wife and I waited for 17 years before having children. We did this intentionally to be able to see the world, establish our careers, before we were diverted to the difficult task of raising children.
But, that was our decision. I have friend my age who's children are in college. Mine are just starting in primary school. They are closer to being empty nester's, while that won't happen to me for another decade. I can't recommend my approach, because I really feel when it comes to having a family it is a personal decision how you choose to do it.
In some ways, we are all broken a little bit and we would all have short comings as parents. What I hear on this topic that is annoying is the double standard of "she should have done..." while complaining that she is the type of person who would tell you how to live your life.
I've seen no evidence of Sarah Palin giving sermons on how everyone should live. Seh has opinions on being against abortion, and in favor of contraceptions, and advocates abstinence as A method that should be taught in school. I've not heard that she believes abstinence is the only method that should be taught in schools. I don't know what talks Bristol and her parents had regarding birth control. She may be pleased that she is pregnant, and madly in love with her boyfriend. Again, it's none of my concern.
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#283, seanspa:
Conspiracy theorists unite!
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#273, lbrogowski:
One more question. Who raised Chelsea Clinton?
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RealFrigid 280, see the Anchorage Daily News article entitled 'Is Wooten a Good Trooper'.
http://www.adn.com/politics/story/476430.html
Does anyone seriously want this sort of person as a cop? In my opinion he should have been fired and not just given a short suspension. I wonder why the trooper was not fired, and do not wonder why the guy who didn't fire him was.
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Simon21 (255):
Ummmm.... no. That is your reading your preconceptions about devout Christians (and Palin) into the Alaskan governor's opinions.
This seems to be another misconception people bandy around about Christians, that they act as if they are more righteous than others, and look down on them, particularly the 'irreligious.' Kind of the sinner as opposed to saint thing, and the portrayal of Christians as being hypocrites.
While a few Christians act that way, that is only because saints (Christians) are sinners themselves, and they stumble and fall at times. The general Christian stance (if could be so bold as to type for all of them) is that both they and 'the rest' are sinners; Christians simply have Christ paying for their sins, while the Christians try to struggle against their sin nature, their human nature. Others, meanwhile, revel in their sins.
To use an analogy, imagine that you have two alcoholics. One alcoholic is trying to end his addiction, while the other just wants to party hard. Now, from time to time, the former will lapse and imbibe and get drunk, etc. But the point is that that alcoholic is trying to end his addiction. The alcoholic doesn't consider himself as being more righteous than the alcoholic who has chosen (so far) to be a drunkard. On the contrary, he knows what the other is going through, and wants him to join him (the one fighting addiction) for that other alcoholics own benefit.
Palin and other Christians hold the opinion that some things are not to be approved of. That doesn't entail that they or their loved ones won't occasionally do what they consider bad, nor that they hate or look down on people who chose to do those things. Almost all people can agree that being unkind to others is bad and that people should not be unkind to one another; yet almost (or all) people at some point in their lives are unkind to others. Does that make them hypocrites? No, they are not hypocrites: people merely recognize unkindness for being the bad behavior that it is. They aren't saying that they aren't prone to being unkind themselves.
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RF (#279), see item 6:
http://community.adn.com/adn/node/130090
Palin believes that a majority of voters in a state would have the right to outlaw abortion if Roe v. Wade were overturned. If she were to succeed to the presidency, and if she had the opportunity to appoint Supreme Court justices, this is a possibility.
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Without wanting to turn this into a 2 way conversion with RF, I agree completely with his conclusion in 286. It seems to me that a false picture is being painted of Palin by those who don't like republicans, and they are then damning her for this position that they have made up for her.
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news of her daughters pregnancy is a private issue, what should be mentioned is this: she and her husband used to be members of the AIP party, a group that appears to wants Alaska to break away from the US. the McCain ads have been saying "America first", i guess that Palin should run ads saying "Alaska first".
along with the corruption charges against her she looks like a really bad pick along with AIP supporter, makes her look like an extreme right-wing fruitcake.
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#291, Gary_A_Hill :
And, then, abortion rights would fall to State Legislators, were these types of decisions belong. Conservative states may ban it, and progressive states may support it.
That is the principle of local control that the US Constitution meant to support.
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You couldn't write it, could you? It looks like the abstinence-only-but-if-you-must-have-sex-use-a-condom advice that young Bristol got at home fell on deaf ears. I can't say I'm devastated - apart from the harm it'll do to McCain. Even more than his error of judgement in picking a Bible fanatic to start with! Still, at least with the Republicans it looks like the right one who's taking the hits, so hopefully the world will be spared Robot Obama and all he doesn't stand for after all. That said, I wouldn't be in young Bristol's shoes - her mom will probably make her call the kid Drillmore or Algebra or Nosex. (Track and Trig? Now there's child abuse!)
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#289, seanspa:
Thanks, Sean. I guess the most outrageous behavior to me was Wooten's tasing of his step son.
A close 2nd place would be the death threats against various people, and drinking on the job.
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277 (and 285):
First, if you're going to cite the CV then give all of it:
Education
Obama; Harvard, Law
Palin: Idaho, Journalism
Upbringing
Obama: Hawaii, Kenya, Indonesia, and back to the US
Palin: Idaho, Alaska
Pre-political career
Obama: Prof of Constitutional Law
Palin: TV Sports Presenter and Beauty Queen runner-up
And as for being mayor of Wasilla ... as Obama pointed out it hasa population of 8500, a staff of 50 and a budget of $15m; his present campaign was built from scratch and has a staff of 2500 and a budget of $50M a month; and, what is more, he was a good enough organiser to defeat the Clintons: that didn't happen by accident, and Joe Biden for all his experience couldn't do it.
What Obama has in spadefuls is maturity and genuine intelligence. Palin would appear to lack those qualities.
As for Alaska, it has a population of c.700,000 or so: there are many US city mayors with considerably greater budgets, organisations and management skills than Palin.
Now, then add in that Palin didn't ask her parents blessing, but instead got herself pregnant and eloped; has supported the Alaska Independence party; is under investigation for her employment practices; has a 17 year old daughter who is pregnant; and who spent 18.5 hours after her waters first broke before she went to a hospital herself, and you have a picture of someone who is erratic and nowhere near thoughtful enough to confront serious global problems.
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#291, GaryAHill;
That sounds more reasonable than the way you paraphrased it.
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"I believe names like "Camden" and "Bristol" are quite popular in the US. However, I am quite surprised that other English towns do not enjoy such popularity as American girls' names. Towns such as Ugly and Catbrain have long been passed over in this regard. Time to rectify this perhaps?"
........................................
Yes indeed, what about these town names?
Apes Hall (Norfolk)
Great Snoring (Norfolk)
Knockin (Shrops.)
Nasty (Herts.)
and for all pro-life supporters...
Lower Slaughter. (Gloucestershire)
:)
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From that same link;
Palin on the environment;
This sounds like a responsible approach. Better than using up all the arable land for growing corn to be burnt as Ethanol, depriving people around the world of food. Some environmentalism can be lethal to humans.
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In connection with 253 and 278, can Justin post about the topic of state secession after the election? That would be pretty interesting.
And basvdbogaard (252), is [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] the source of your stats? If so, then that is for teenage births, not teenage pregnancies. They aren't the same thing; some nations could just abort more of their unborn than the United States.
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Another nugget regarding Sarah Palin's stanc e on the environment.
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If Chelsea was pregnant in the white house, we wouldn't back-off!
Why should we back-off now?
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When Palin was first nominated my first thought was what are the odds that MCcCain coulkd find this woman in a place other than a trailer park and she has all her teeth ?
A gun toting, runner up beauty Queen ,anti gay , anti -abortion, born again evangelical , thinks the bible should be taught along side of evolution theory, Global warming is not caused by man ?
Then it got more interesting . 17 year old daugher pregnant- Husband arrested in the past for driving while impared?
Tell me there isnt a double- wide trailer in her past somewhere . Heee haw !
Will tube tops be the dress of choice at the vice -presidential celebration?
What a cynical choice by McCain . a woman who represents all that the woman's movement has been fighting against .
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The core issue is Roe v. Wade. McCain is on the record advocating overturning that decision.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
I don't know if Palin has herself explicitly advocated the same, but she's on his team and she will certainly be asked about it soon.
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265, The Notting Hill Hammer,
Bigotry is always defended and perfectly rational to the bigoted.
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#249. chill0: "the Anchorage Daily News . . . said something like this" - Not exactly a verbatim transcript - when you find the link, perhaps you'd make it available.
#191 "I will post a link as soon as I can track it down" The link at #199 certainly isn't it, so what's the delay? The licence fee remark you made was in he previous subject, which at this moment shows no comments whatsoever - I'll post the comment as soon as I can track it down . . .
#290. AnonymousCalifornian "Palin and other Christians hold the opinion that some things are not to be approved of." The problem is that she would attempt to legislate that morality for everyone else. There would be no argument if this was simply a matter of what she considers to be right for herself, but she wants it to be codified in law.
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I for one are in deep anger at how Justin Webb has used his position in the BBC to show such biased and unbalanced reporting as he is showing in the anti-Palin issues. Tittle tattle on the web states that the Democratic party are putting up financial rewards for anti Palin stories - and I would hope that the BBC is not involved in this ridiculous gossip?
The BBC by its charter must display an unbiased and balance reporting and not escape its responsibilites by showing biased moderating or by allowing blatent bad and false statements.
I would remind our American audience that the BBC is a UK funded service paid by all owners of TV's in the UK and its value to the BBC is almost $6 BILLION - and yet over the last 14 years the bias has increased to a level that the British and world public can no longer trust it in many spheres.
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How about this...
For every accusation against Palin and her daughter, the accuser provides a link from a reputable news organization corroborating the accusation.
Let's start with:
1. Gov. Palin wants creationism taught in school.
2. Gov. Palin didn't give birth to her 5-month old boy.
3. Gov. Palin's daughter is being forced to have this baby.
4. Gov. Palin's daughter is being forced to get married.
5. Gov. Palin's brother-in-law should have retained his job.
6. Gov. Palin voted for Pat Buchanan
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AnonymousCalifornian "Palin and other Christians hold the opinion that some things are not to be approved of."
#290. David_Cunard: The problem is that she would attempt to legislate that morality for everyone else. There would be no argument if this was simply a matter of what she considers to be right for herself, but she wants it to be codified in law.
**************
To D_C: Please explain what Palin's "morality" is and specifically how she would "legislate that morality".
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Yes, its a personal and private matter - and should be held outside of the realm of politics. However, with one person, one vote as the criteria for judgment - only time will tell if it adds to the potential liability she brings.
It's ironic that Obama is supporting the line that its a private issue - I presume he sees Sarah Palin as a huge liability for McCain and wants to keep her in the game. I have a private bet with my wife, she won't make it the the election!!
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299
penny come quick(devon)
I have to laugh at the american commentators saying she is a "spunky" woman.
With that many babies I'll leave it at that.
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A bigger issue might in fact well be the judgement of the Rep. party itself:
"There were also claims that Mr McCain, until midweek, had wished to select either independent Senator Joe Lieberman or former homeland security chief Tom Ridge as his vice presidential candidate, suggestions that met with anger from conservative Republicans because both men, unlike Mrs Palin, are supporters of abortion.
“They didn’t seriously consider her until four or five days from the time she was picked, before she was asked, maybe the Thursday or Friday before,” a Republican told the New York Times. “This was really kind of rushed at the end, because John didn’t get what he wanted. He wanted to do Joe or Ridge.”
Forced into a damage limitation exercise, the McCain campaign said they had completed a very thorough background check, including a criminal records check and a probe of Mrs Palin’s financial records. But the FBI said they did not participate in any criminal check. "
Daily Telegraph.
McCain didn't get his pick? Who did?
Last minute decision - for VP? A day before? Madness!
Vetting team turning up the day before the nomination was announced?
It's not just scary, it's damning.
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Adnrianny what about her right to decide for a rape victim if they should carry the baby.
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292 the same thing could be said of the campaign against obama.
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The BBC has another article on pregnancy among teenagers in the US
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7593735.stm
Palin case highlights teenage pregnancy
"The US is said to have one of the worst annual rates of teenage pregnancies in the developed world. "
"According to America's leading health agency, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC): "About one-third of girls in the United States get pregnant before age 20."
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#3-9, here's a link to a report that she advocates the teaching of creationism in schools:
http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511551.html
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mean while the europeans are trying to and doing a good job of showing that the US is on it's own when it comes to trying to go back to the cold war.
"Evolution not revolution " should be the democrats bumper sticker.
'Cause there's the problem these revolutionaries are still trying to get back to the beginning .
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It would be a fair question to ask Sarah Palin whether she supports sex ed in the school or prefers abstinence to be taught
and why she has made that decision.
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316 see abstinance works;)
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#210Knoppert
"Even all with all this Obama has yet to pull away from his opponent."
Is the fault Obama's or is it the US that is peculiar.
Around the world people want to vote for Obama...but in the US Obama might lose.
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#317,
"As a politician, Palin has sided with the majority evangelical view in opposing gay marriage and expressing a desire to see creationism discussed alongside evolution in schools.
During a 2006 debate, she said she was a proponent of teaching both evolution and creationism in schools. She later clarified her stance in an interview with The Anchorage Daily News, saying that she doesn't think creationism needed to be part of the curriculum and that she would not push the state Board of Education to add such alternatives to the state's required curriculum"
Sounds reasonable to me.
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# 308 cassandrina wrote:
"I for one are in deep anger at how Justin Webb has used his position in the BBC to show such biased and unbalanced reporting as he is showing in the anti-Palin issues."
The stated mission of the BBC is "to inform, educate and entertain" (as laid down by Parliament in the BBC Charter); its motto is
"Nation Shall Speak Peace Unto Nation".
Sorry you are not feeling informed, educated and entertained.
Cant help feeling that artafallies piece# 276 got the balance correct.
Somewhere between apple pie and half baked alaska.
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It's getting to the point where I'm wishing that
I could vote for a McCain-Biden ticket, as it was
possible in the very early days of the Republic.
The main thing that screws up the whole process
is that politicians belong to political parties.
Washington was right.
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What about the age of men and their sperm??
Why are the eggs only mentioned? Never The sperm?
Below I posted a headline from the BBC website from today...
Older fathers linked with bipolar
Older fathers are more likely to have children with bipolar disorder than younger men, research suggests.
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314. "what about her right to decide for a rape victim if they should carry the baby."
Her position is consistently against abortion. The "exception" for rape is inconsistent with a pure pro-life stance.
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I don't judge her for the fact her daughter got pregnant. For all we know, maybe the daughter DID use condoms and one broke. Doubtful, but possible. To be fair, even parents who lecture on safer-sex practices and proper condom use end up with pregnant teens sometimes.
I *do* judge her for choosing to enter this very public race when her daughter is in such a vulnerable condition. For a mother OR a father to put their family under this kind of scrutiny during a very trying time seems at best, kind of selfish and at worst, cruel. I hope that the daughter is strong enough to handle all this.
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321. At 6:30pm on 02 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:
#210Knoppert
"Even all with all this Obama has yet to pull away from his opponent."
Is the fault Obama's or is it the US that is peculiar.
Around the world people want to vote for Obama...but in the US Obama might lose.
*********************
I'm always amused when half the population of the US is condemned for not seeing the wisdom of the other half.
If Obama loses, please don't feel you have to explain to the rest of the world, or make apologies for me, okay?
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#310. At 6:09pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY: "Please explain what Palin's "morality" is and specifically how she would "legislate that morality". If you don't know what Mrs Palin's views are, you should not be in the discussion. Anti-abortion, anti-contraception but pro-abstinence, anti-same sex marriage, pro-capital punishment. Like any other politician of her kind, she would attempt to introduce legislation that emphasised her views and she would support the overturn of Roe - v - Wade with the appointment of judges who would ensure that. If she ever became President, which would not be beyond the bounds of possibility should Mr McCain be elected, you can be sure that she would endeavour to introduce her righteous views into the legislative process. However, as I've written before, I don't think she'll be on the ballot in November so it may well be a moot point.
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gunsand... (#324), it was only the electors who could have voted for a McCain-Biden ticket, not the voters. In fact, most Americans couldn't vote for president at all in the early days of the Republic. Women couldn't vote. No blacks or other racial minorities could vote. In some states, electors were appointed by the state Senate, so nobody could vote.
Political parties are a natural consequence of our Bill of Rights, which protects our rights to freedom of speech, press, and assembly. Would you abolosh these in order to do away with parties?
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Here is a perfect example of the "head in the sand" aproach to sexual education in America that the republicans use. The US has more teenage pregancies than any other country. John McCain (and most republicans) voted against spending money to EDUCATION to teach YOUNG PEOPLE ABOUT SEX. They would rather just say "don't do it." It is hypocritical and not realistic. The Palin pregnancy illustrates the biggest problem regarding teenage pregnancies in the US: IGNORANCE. Which brings us to the next point; if the daughter of a potention vice president is too ignorant to use a condom, what does that say about her mother and her upbringing? Are we still in the 1940's??? Bad choise Mr. McCain.
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www.gallup.com/poll/10996...
Obama hits the magic 50 for the first time!
So much for the Palin bounce
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Andrea you and I are complete opposites. There is no way that I could "make apologies for" you.
You are in the minority outside of America.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-06-12-poll_N.htm
World poll: Obama more likely to 'do the right thing'
"WASHINGTON — The matchup between John McCain and Barack Obama is close in nationwide surveys in the USA, but around the world it's no contest: Obama prevails."
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329. David_Cunard: "If you don't know what Mrs Palin's views are, you should not be in the discussion. Anti-abortion, anti-contraception but pro-abstinence, anti-same sex marriage, pro-capital punishment. Like any other politician of her kind, she would attempt to introduce legislation that emphasised her views and she would support the overturn of Roe - v - Wade with the appointment of judges who would ensure that. If she ever became President, which would not be beyond the bounds of possibility should Mr McCain be elected, you can be sure that she would endeavour to introduce her righteous views into the legislative process. However, as I've written before, I don't think she'll be on the ballot in November so it may well be a moot point."
Actually, I believe you've also described your "morality", which contradicts hers.
And are we to believe that a Democratic candidate wouldn't "legislate" your morality? And, if so, how is that different?
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Another nugget regarding Sarah Palin's stance on the environment.
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#330, Gary:
Obviously, you are more familiar than I with
the electoral machinery of the early days
of the Republic.
The root of my discontent is that I don't believe
that McCain is being his own man. His VP pick
proves that.
I would prefer to vote for candidates, not parties.
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This is the original Pew Poll which indicates Obama would win over McCain outside of the US
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=260
"People around the world who have been paying attention to the American election express more confidence in Barack Obama than in John McCain to do the right thing regarding world affairs. McCain is rated lower than Obama in every country surveyed, except for the United States where his rating matches Obama's,..."
And the graph entitled "More have Confidence in Obama than McCain " shows very clearly how liked Obama is.
Well... looking at the graph...McCain might win in Jordan. I could support McCain as the leader of Jordan.
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#338, bethpa, that's interesting because my
understanding is that in the US, the poll results
are exactly reversed. By a wide margin, Americans
believe that Obama would make better decisions
on the economy, and that McCain would perform
better as commander in chief.
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Here is another view.
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#339
gunsandreligion
I have no understanding of why Obama is not winning in the polls and easily beating McCain.
Perhaps more Americans like war as a solution?and favor aggression more than diplomacy?or some connection to isolationism?
Republicans will actually use Obama's approval in other nations against him.
To some Americans its actually bad to be liked by other nations...go figure...
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bethpa, I see what you are saying. Obama
certainly seems to be more intelligent in
foreign affairs. And, McCain and Palin obviously
have many flaws.
But, I must tell you, there is something which
is deeply disquieting about Obama.
Even though I work in a technical field, my
job requires a considerable amount of intuition.
And, my intuition tells me that there is something
wrong with Obama, perhaps on a spiritual level.
I'm not quite able to put my finger on it, but
it's there, and if he gets elected, I'm sure that
we will all find out what it is.
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#293, MyronCope:
"along with the corruption charges "
What corruption charges?
Please cite your source.
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Its possible to make a trade based upon whether you think Palin will withdraw as McCain's vice presidential pick....here:
http://www.intrade.com/
Right now about 14% say Palin will withdraw...
that withdrawal would certainly hurt McCain with religious right Republicans..unless it was explained that her withdrawal was so that Mrs Palin could take care of her family..
That way McCain seems to support the religious right...while moving on to another vice presidential candidate...Lieberman?
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Obama says,
Ok... My question is why is he comparing himself to the VP? Isn't he running for President?
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#342 gunsandreligion
I think Obama is the best hope we have right now..and there will be many many brilliant minds that will help him to repair the damage done by Bush.
The world needs a strong US that is a moral leader.
From your link..the David Brooks op-ed in the NYT
"If McCain is elected, he will face conditions tailor-made to foster disorder. He will be leading a divided and philosophically exhausted party. There simply aren’t enough Republican experts left to staff an administration, so he will have to throw together a hodgepodge with independents and Democrats."
Can you imagine? Let me repeat that:
"There simply aren’t enough Republican experts left to staff an administration,"
Thats an effect of the Bush administration.
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Sara Palin would deny other women's daughters both the choice to keep or abort a baby and government support, health care and schooling funds to raise the child properly.
Apparently teen pregnancy is only OK if you're a rich white girl with political connections. For the rest of America she proposes that girls like Bristol have their children taken from them at the mandatory birth and farmed out for adoption.
The hypocrisy of the GOP is staggering.
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RF (#345), have you been asleep? He's comparing his experience to Palin's because others have compared them as the two candidates with supposedly slim credentials. He was answering a question, no doubt.
Taking a single quote out of the context in which it was made, and out of the context of the entire campaign and trying to make something of it is known as "cherry picking." That's what you have to do when the big picture looks bleak.
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Beth, Jack,
Your discussion of teen pregnancy issues in America is interesting. I'm wondering if there is a pop culture element. Are media and social mores changing children's expectations of what is acceptable behavior? Such as, "It's acceptable to have sex if you are in love."
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I always feel a little sick when I see right wing simpletons who cling to the bible, shout abuse at people who disagree with them in a slefrighteous manner, talk about family values, always refer to god, and throw patriotism in peoples faces.
Well Mrs Palin - what does the bible say about pre marital sex? If your daughter is only seventeen and five months pregnant - has she had underage sex? We know about your family values, but what about your daughter?
Did you not instill any of your familyt values in her - or should we assume that you did and she acted them out?
My guess is that John Mcain was briefed about your daughters pregnancy, but he is so old that he forgot and chose you anyway.
Please show some humility before you preach to others!!!
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This is a matter for the Palin familly and has no relevence to McCain or Palin's ability to govern. The private lives of the children of politicians should be off limits for such scandal-mongering.
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Bethpa (#333), believe me, Americans do not worry about the preferences of foreigners when selecting our president, nor should we.
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I wonder if Sarah Palin consulted her daughter before accepting the job. I wonder if she explained that it would mean going from a story that was local to Alaska to becoming the world's most famous teen unwed mother.
I would have said to John McCain, "Not this time, maybe next time. My family's privacy is paramount at the moment."
I guess the temptation was too great.
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#350 RealFrigid
yes children need more protection
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/621/t/6914/campaign.jsp
Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood
"A marketing-driven media culture sells children on behaviors and values driven by the need to promote profit rather than the public good."
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#353 Gary_A_Hill
America is in debt to other nations. They are keeping the US afloat . Thanks to the Bush administration.
The future is that we will have to get along with others. We need them economically
"Our biggest financiers are China, Russia and the gulf states," Roubini noted. "These are rivals, not allies."
"The United States, Roubini went on, will likely muddle through the crisis but will emerge from it a different nation, with a different place in the world. "Once you run current-account deficits, you depend on the kindness of strangers," he said, pausing to let out a resigned sigh. "This might be the beginning of the end of the American empire."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/magazine/17pessimist-t.htm
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I thought that no sex before marriage was part of the neo con creed?
Its a bit like 'thou shalt not kill'. Fine in theory but not in Iraq.
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#347, bethpa, it would actually be a good thing
if McCain got in and had to hire a bunch of
Democrats and Independents.
We'd actually have a bipartisan administration.
Personally, I think McCain is OK, his problem
is that he needs the Republican party to run.
The sooner that he could leave Karl Rove
and his buddies behind, the better.
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343. At 7:48pm on 02 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
#293, MyronCope:
"along with the corruption charges "
What corruption charges?
Please cite your source.
troopergate or road-to-nowhere,
take your pic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
but these are just the ones we know about now, wait until they really investigate her.
AIP has stated they wanted to infiltrate mainstream parties too:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/2/84441/74256/661/583099
hahaha...maybe she is an agent of the AIP sent to undermine the govt.
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I cannot believe there has not been more comment in the media about Palin’s belief in creationism! She has been educated in a developed country but has come to believe in something with as much scientific credibility as a flat earth! This is the person’s whose judgement will be one very old life away from the presidency. Very Scary.
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#359, MyronCope:
Ok, let's pick Troopergate,
Do you like your troopers to;
a) make death threats?
b) use a taser on your child?
c) drink and drive on the job?
Seems like typical politics of State government to me. You are making a tempest in a teapot here.
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#359, MyronCope:
We can play "what if" games all day.
What if... Obama really loves "Liberation Theology" and secretly plans to enact the policies of Louis Farrakhan?
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356, bethpa :
Data in context helps...
Who holds America's debt?
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#360, Eternalhope63;
Eye's wide shut?
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358, gunsandreligion;
"Personally, I think McCain is OK, his problem
is that he needs the Republican party to run.
The sooner that he could leave Karl Rove
and his buddies behind, the better."
----
Yes! The NeoCon vs GOP rift extends through Bush/Cheney to the lunatic fringe right media Rush Limbaugh.
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#355, bethpa:
#350 RealFrigid
yes children need more protection
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/621/t/6914/campaign.jsp
Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood
"A marketing-driven media culture sells children on behaviors and values driven by the need to promote profit rather than the public good."
---
I agree with the "No Commercials" part too.
But, I was thinking more about dramatic shows targeted towards teens where the protagonists make choices contrary to what their parents/schools are trying to teach. typically in a drama for adolescents you would want to insure that bad choices are made by "bad people" who suffer consequences due to their actions. Relating to sex, drugs, cheating, stealing, fighting, etc...
When my wife and I decided to climb that mountain of raising children I picked up some books to read up on what good parents do. One of them was, "The Good Son: Shaping the Moral Development of Our Boys and Young Men" by Micheal Gurian. In it he talks quite a bit about media and moral ambiguity. He discusses the idea that for children's media, negative choices need to result in negative consequences. As a parent, I'm worried about how many voices are teaching my children. They have media, teachers, peers, and their parents. In our modern world, children spend much more time with teachers and their school peers than they do with parents. If that time is substituted with media, then what influence do parents really have?
Also, perhaps as a part of the continuing emancipation of women, the reduction in "shame" for "doing it" probably results in an erosion of the social mores against it.
Another factor may be culture. I was raised in a rural area similar to Bristol, and really for entertainment there was not much to do. This resulted in more inappropriate entertainment (drinking, drugs, sex, reckless driving). I'm not familiar with what inner city teens go through (although my wife does), but it must be worse.
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I guess my last more detailed comment got rejected? Stop bashing Palin for her daughter, its disgraceful. BBC this means u!
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I am confused. So the social conservatives are proud that Palin's daughter is keeping the baby?- I find it odd that they show no outrage for the fact she had premarital sex. Using this as pro-life story is a little stale-how many unplanned for babies need to be born in this Palin family just to prove a political point. And by the way I wonder who made the decision that this 17 year old will keep the baby and marry the father- I am not too sure she did.
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364, JohnAAA
Have you ever considered that it is not smear, but truth? Perhaps you think it impossible to bring pressure to bear to suppress the truth. That is naive.
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Since both sides seem to be Bible thumping this issue, here is what the Bible actually says;
For the Democrats: St. John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
For the Republicans: 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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CLODOVIL-- I would really like to know what makes Michelle Obama so scary to you? Does she make you afraid because she doesn't fit into this stereotype of what Black people are suppose to be according to the evening news? Strong and beautiful, educated and caring, hard working and honest? Is she scary to you because her husband will probably be the next president of my country and you will HAVE to call her first lady, a term of respect? Please tell me so I can make better sense of why the wife of a presidential candidate puts so much fear in you when she is not the one for office. she will set a different standard for women of all colors shapes and backgrounds. She is the face of the new american women, does that scare you? I can only assume that you are afraid because she doesn't look like you physically, but let me be the first to tell you that it's ok. The american women has never, up to this point, looked like me physically either, however I took what I could and learned from her. I would suggest you do the same. Don't allow your fear of change or skin color or sterotypes, fuel your will to do what is right for you. Whatever that is, make your decision based on the facts and not the opinions of others or yourself.
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Some of these comments and the debate in the media about Gov. Palin and her daughter's pregnancy literally make me disgusted.
First starters, I cringe at the thought that anyone considers the birth of Sarah Palin's youngest son, Trig, a baby with Down's Syndrome as a huge mistake and irresponsibility on her part. How is that so? Should babies with Down's Syndrome be aborted? What makes them anymore less deserving of life?
Secondly, as a person who left high school not too long ago, I am not sure if claiming that Gov. and Mr. Palin forced their daughter into marrying the father of the child is all that accurate. I remember from high school more students wanting to rush out and get marry because they found "their one and only love" (and it was also their reasoning for sex at a young age as well... they were "in love"). Also, while it seems huge irony about Gov. Palin's stance on abstinence only education that her daughter ends up pregnant, I know there are plenty of children who do not follow exactly what their parents teach or preach. I am fairly sure that the Palin camp has yet to release the full media report on what happened on the night that Bristol conceived. I met plenty of young pregnant women with stories of "the condom broke" or "I messed up on taking my birth control pills," etc.
Thirdly, I am questionable about why people say that Gov. Palin should be staying at home and taking care of her family instead of running with McCain. Is that out of general concern for her family, a slap in her face for her family problems, or a sexist remark that falls back on stereotypical gender roles? What if this was a man who was running for vice president--would people still say that he needs to go home and take care of his family or will everyone be content with him in politics and his wife staying at home to take care of the family?
Also, whomever mentioned how will Gov. Palin deal with the HIV/AIDs situation in Africa if she only promoted abstinence based education, President Bush just signed a new aid deal to fight TB, malaria, and HIV. While it went by without too much fanfare, part of the program actually reversed the decision to only fund abstinence based only education (which seemed to be a popular criticism of Bush's aid packages) so condoms are being promoting in HIV/AIDS mitigation by American aid money (although it took too long of a time for us to get back to that point). (I tried searching for the link to that news story which I found on the BBC website about a month or two ago, but I cannot seem to locate it again.)
Lastly, I do applaud Senator Obama for his statements regarding keeping family off-limits--very graceful and tactful.
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I've just heard on the radio that an Alaskan newspaper is reporting that the expectant father is being flown to the convention to be flaunted as a valued member of the Palin family.
And I guess the NRA will be announced as the donors of the shotgun at the wedding.
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David_Cunard,
#137. tucsonmike "Her daughters pregnancy should be left as a family matter" On the contrary, it strikes at the heart of what Republicans would inflict on America. Mrs Palin has extremist views on a number of issues, morality amongst them. No sex before marriage, abstinence and so forth are part and parcel of the agenda. If her family cannot reflect her views, what good is she? And if she has lied about the fifth child, then it's very much a matter for consideration by both the media and the electorate. The Obama campaign is well advised to leave it alone, but be assured that no-one else will: Inquiring Minds Want To Know! As my mother would have said, "Truth will out" and within weeks, even days, I expect more unsavoury revelations about what could very well be America's Second Family
The pregnancy has to be dealt with as a family matter. The American people have to decide whether to accept Governor Palin's views.
Politics is the art of the possible. If Senator McCain is elected, Congress will probably be majority Democratic in both houses. There is no way a politician in this country is going to sponsor either an abortion bill or a constitutional amendment against it. Bringing that up would be political suicide.
Certain "realities" poke their ugly heads through on January 20th. What are the odds of a bill banning abortion passing?
I mainly want to know:
1. How people behind on their mortgage payments are going to be helped?
2. Fixing the Economy so we are doing better.
3. Working the deficit down (if it is not already too late).
4. Real free and fair trade. In other words, playing by the rules.
5. Health Care. We are going to have to get a nationalized system eventually. I see no way out of it.
To me, I have no choice. I am really voting for the ticket that will mess with my life the least. Barack Obama is about dreams. I don't think my Senator, John McCain is right for the job either. I am going to be watching the debates and body language with great interest. (Seventeen years in Toastmasters will do that to you).
I will vote and hope for the best.
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I'm getting tired even of laughing at the "look at both sides" rant of the creationists. Would they also recommend we look at "both sides" of gravity?
The theory of evolution has developed from real-world examination and analysis. Creationism is not a scientific theory, it is a religious scripture.
Creationism was drawn from a scant few paragraphs of a book of stories assembled by shepherds, fishermen, and philosophers 2000+ years ago. Every religion has a theory/story/parable about the beginning of humanity and the world. Not one of them is considered earth science!
When Charles Darwin set out on his voyage, his intention was to prove creationism. But the more he learned the more he became convinced that he'd been wrong.
Evolution belongs in science class, and creation belongs in church. There is no crossover, unless you'd also expect to preach loaves and fishes in home ec.
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Andrea 1. Gov. Palin wants creationism taught in school.
Is she an Alaskan Republican?
Well, I'll be a Monkey's Uncle!
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I just saw in the news that the daughter and her teen husband-to-be are going to be trotted out with the family at the convention... and they're all claiming that the two kids planned to be married BEFORE she got pregnant!
I guess you can write off all those demands for privacy, now that they have another marketing tool for Family Values.
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371, happyuk.
Just for the record, the moderators did not print any of the comments I made pertinent to the questionable pregnancy of Gov. Palin.
It seems to be all right to talk about it now, for some reason.
Palin's own description of her "labor," and her long trips by air and car in this condition, is ludicrous. I have had four children myself; I know how that stuff works. It's simple - you hie yourself to a hospital. You certainly don't stand in front of a prestigious audience leaking amniotic fluid.
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371
Exactly. The BBC ran all day long on the smear. And never asked a single quastion of the McCain campaign.
It took a blogger to explode the Daily Kos smear. The media - as usual - failing to do their job properly.
And we are forced to pay for this trash ?
The moderators of this blog should remove ALL the entries that repeated the smear - it is defamatory.
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372
Get real.
The original Daily Kos photo of Bristol palin - which they suggested showed sahe was pregnant, was taken in 2006. Trig was born this year.
The story was a smear from the start, and suckers on the left swallowed it.
And the BBC ran with it, never tried to investigate it. The BBC - the biggest news operation in the world, giving heavy coverage of the US election - all it seems to be doing is reciting Dem handouts. That was bad enough - but playing along with the Daily Kos filth is despicabe.
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Economist123,
So I take it your complaint is that media ,BBC etc are pro Democrat. Today at work I heard a colleague complaining that 70% of the media in USA are known Democrat supporters.
I have also heard complaints and I know it is true as well, that Hollywood is full of lefties and Dem supporters.
Well they are! And probably BBC writers for most part favor the democrats.
But you want them to be "fair" meaning not be so pro-Democrats. But why? I am sorry BUT NO ONE OWES REPUBLICAN ANY THING.
I don't ask fox news network to be be less bias. I don't accuse my local Republican dominated paper for being too Republican.
Hollywood was created by Lefties" and if you don't approve tough. Go make your own movies.
Pro Democrats have been able to take control of media because they worked to take the control, GO create your own media (you already have fox news network).
But what is new? Hypocrisy of Republican has no limit. Democrats work hard to make the films and create the media empire Republican come and cry and want their share. Republican cry about taxes, and then every red state from south pockets the hard earned tax money from northern and western liberal states. Republicans whine and cry and taut their "morality and family values", and yet red state of south lead the nation in divorce rate, teenage pregnancy, but then blame states like Massachusetts for allowing gay marriages which undermines the family values. BTW Mass has lowest divorce rate and lowest teenage pregnancy.
SO NO! you lazy repulicans should DO SOMETHIGN yourself,, go create your own
BBC and stop begging here. So tired of you whining and free loading republicans...
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Did someone say that Michelle Obama is scary? What is that supposed to mean! actually I already know- the guilty are always scared!
And did I hear that now the Bristol boyfriend is going to the convention- when will this madness end!
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380, javanyet.
"....and they are all claiming that the two kids planned to be married BEFORE she got pregnant?"
Before she got pregnant which time?
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I know all of God's creation find a point of growing that triggers new responses to life about you.What I can't understand is a world that is still in Lady Victoria's tell your children do not listen to your body do what I want you to do.They go about believing that what they said is going to out last what your body screaming.I am an old man,but my memory is not that shoot to let me believe for one moment that my words can drown out that message.What really gets me is the better then yous and their over worked mouths.Please please do not ever forget how hard it was for you!!
If you think for one moment you'll da-n well remember trying to get to susie cutie to forget what the parents were tell you about going to hell in a little basket.
If you think for one minute that Johnny or Jill can do a better job of that then you did (BULL) I think that probability to true account of wedding purity is maybe 2%and that is at best in the World we have handed down to them!!
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Obama has said that this little family problem with the Palins is a private matter that is of no business of anyone else. Very statesmanlike, conventional, proper, .... and naive. Does he really believe they deserve a free pass when they are going to use the daughter, and the expectant father, on centre stage at a national convention? If you claim the right to privacy, you can't trot them out when you think they might garner you a few votes.
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386 Somelilli
Don't inderestimate the word "scary". It was used a few years back in a British Columbia provincial election. One party leader referred to the other as scary - no supporting evidence, or even elaboration. Just the one word. The toothless media never challenged him on it, and the label stuck, to the extent that "scary" lost an election that he was going to win handily.
There is a real laziness in the electorate that has a lot to do with the election of people like George W. Bush.
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#389, Allitnil :
If that is the litmus test, then shouldn't Barrack submit his children to DNA testing to prove they are his? Isn't mud slinging really ugly and childish?
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391 RealFrigid
I didn't mean it to sound partisan. I personally think that during the campaign, all we need to know is that candidate X is married with Y children. It's the candidate that should be on the campaign trail, because he/she is the one we should be focussed on, along with his/her policies. After the election, fine. Let's have a picture or two of the First and Second Families in the White House. But whoever you are, if you choose to use your kids to get votes, you can't start asking for privacy when it goes pear-shaped (am I allowed to say "pear-shaped"?)
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#392, Allitnil:
My understanding is in America the press don't "paparazzi" if the children are not adults. Even when they are adults, as long as they keep a low key the press respects their privacy.
But, like with the Reagan kids, if they get themselves into the public spot light then they get much more scrutiny.
For example, the shameless spectacle in Britain with Diana's boys would have never happened in the US (even if we had royalty).
The one exception is the party convention when they are paraded around a bit as photo ops to show them as a family.
Track going to Iraq would have some interest if he stands out in anyway.
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389, Allitnil.
If Obama is playing the gentleman and not going after Panil, it is not out of naivete. He is saving himself for bigger game - the real VP candidate.
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The Political ramifications and in-family decisions apart, isn't there a statutory rape issue here? Bristol Palin is 17. I'm not sure about the laws of Alaska but is marriage at 17 legal?
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#396, honkytonkclown :
In Alaska, the age of consent for both sexes is 16. There is an issue if the age difference is greater than 3 years.
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#397, RealFrigid
Thanks for the clarification. I understand that as long as she is over 16 it isn't an issue even if the guy is 3 or more years older. Does the age of consent apply to marriage as well?
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#398, honkytonkclown :
To clarify, since she is under 18, the three year rule does apply, but her boyfriend is her same age, iirc. Marriage for minors in most States needs approval by parent, legal guardian or a judge.
Texas for example had 16 as the age of consent, but didn't have the three year rule, which is why the Fundamentalist Mormons decided to move there.
Levi Johnston to join Palin family at convention
So, whew, yeah. Levi and Bristol have quite a bit of growing up to do in a very short time. If they were smart, for their own sanity they should just get a small place in Wasilla and stay out of the public eye for about 4 years. Iguess it would be strange though to have some MIB secret service guys shadowing you all around a small town.
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Hi Justin
Any chance my comment could be shown?
It's no. 371 posted at 11:25pm on 02 Sep 2008, by happyuk07.
As far as I'm aware it uses civil language and no ad hominem attacks on anyone.
Please let me know if there any problems.
kind regards
Andy
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Economist123 posted at 1044pm last evening that it mattered not that Palin beleives in Creationism. It matters an awful lot that she is unable to separate a tenet based on faith and one based on an assesssment of rational evidence from a wide range of scientific disciplines. As a member of the 'free world' sheltering under the umbrella of the self appointed global policeman that is the US I want a rational mind in charge not someone who simply 'has faith'.
And the idea that Obama would usher in socialism....well, as an inhabitant of messy old Europe, I can only think that Economist 123 cannot be very old, cannot have travelled and cannot have seen a socialist ( or former socialist) state from the inside.
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If the Constitution of the United States of America formally prohibits religion to be taught in public schools, how is it that religion can play such a huge part in American politics?
Allowing one but not the other seems to be a double standard and highly hypocritical but then, what's new about that in the good 'ole US of A?
Religion and politics should be kept completely separate, in the same way that the Executive and the Judiciary should also be kept separate.
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I understand that Sarah Palin opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to how this can equate to Christian views and values when forcing a woman to bear a child as a result of rape or incest can only be regarded as EVIL and compounding a very serious crime.
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Justin
LOL. Thank you for promptly posting comment no. 400, but it was really comment no. 371 I'm after, posted + 12 hours ago.
Comment no. 371 contains no rants, bad language or personal attacks, so I'm a little puzzled.
Thanks in anticipation.
Andy
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"401. At 09:41am on 03 Sep 2008, olddocrob wrote:
And the idea that Obama would usher in socialism....well, as an inhabitant of messy old Europe, I can only think that Economist 123 cannot be very old, cannot have travelled and cannot have seen a socialist ( or former socialist) state from the inside."
I am afraid I have met very few Americans who have the vaguest idea what socialism is
apart from the fact that it is some type of heresy.
It probably derives vaguely from the old puritan attitude towards Catholics, "witches" etc
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What double standards. The conservative right wing Republicans. Blasted minority young women for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Blaiming the parents as being unfit. Now the Republican VP pick is in the same boat . We hear another spin.
That is the problem with Republicans''Racist angry old men" just look at the convention
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Mrs Palin's daughter is one of many teens who are active sexually. This is not unusual. The outcome of being so can be a pregnacy. It is ironic that a 'rigth to life' candidate now faces whether or not to abort her daughter's child, or recommend that it be aborted. This is a typical family problem in America and elsewhere. Perhaps it is not going to turn out bad for her daughter. There is a God.
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I can't stop thinking how McCain's rodents would be destroying Obama if it was one of HIS teenage daughters that was a bit older and pregnant.
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406 well said , thanks for saying that.
Surgdoc.
On the religious debate,catholics vrs enavgelicals.
Ihave heard some evan think the catholics are wrong because of the importance they place on Mary.
Strange.
really strange.
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This woman, who professes to believe that a god created the world in six days and had a day off, who does not ensure that her girl uses contraceptives, might become the President of the United States. I such a case, where can we go to be safe?
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Why does the whole world seem to be acting as if Sarah Palin made the decision for her daughter to keep the baby and get married?
Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the girl wants to keep her baby? She obviously has the support of her family and whether or not she believes in a woman's right to abortion, for her own personal circumstances, maybe she just wants to have her baby.
And why must her mother be forcing her to get married? She presumably cared about this boy enough to sleep with him, so maybe, given the circumstances, they have decided that they want to get married.
I find it very strange how much detail we get on the pregnancy, with less focus on the drink driving or Troopergate, which seems far more serious to me. Surely whether or not Sarah Palin abused her powers is much more relevent to being VP than whether two consenting adults had sex that resulted in pregnancy?
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revolution not evolution. thats the right mantra got it wrong before
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It's hard for me to believe that women will be swayed either way by Sarah Palin but i do worry about men. She is so much more attractive than Joe Biden. In fact Ms palin is quite beautiful. This means that the Democrats have to convince the American male electorate to think with the part of the body capable of telling the difference between ugly policies and a pretty face - rather than the body part that does most of their thinking most of the time. Sadly this is going to be a challenge...
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414 too right
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#357 sandPerran
"I thought that no sex before marriage was part of the neo con creed?"
#370 somelilli
"I find it odd that they show no outrage for the fact she had premarital sex."
............................................
There is a meanness to this religious view of a marriage...resulting from sex and a pregnancy..
And this view is from conservative Christians and not from neocons
Forcing a marriage is a way to teach the person who broke God's code by making them now responsible for not following God's will.
So if these young people marry and have difficulties ..the response will be..you brought this on yourself by not following God's commandments..."You made your bed now lie in it"
They can be used as examples of what happens if you have premarital sex..the girl gets pregnant ..leaves school..the boy must marry the girl... probably also leave school and then go to work to support his new family..and they will have the responsibility of a baby while their friends still have freedom...it will be punitive for them..and they are expected to be responsible ...
But because Palin is so high profile..there will be an effort to show that even though the young couple broke God's commandments..they are now doing the right thing and being responsible and able to handle the problems associated with marriage and a family.
So they will be the example of how marriage after breaking God's laws can work..if the young people now commit themselves to God's will.
The young man apparently put on his you tube page that he did not want to have children
( He's in it deep now..with all kinds of pressures even an older person might find difficult to deal with)
( My own values are to put the baby up for adoption and not force a marriage..but that can create problems too. It might be this young couple can make a serious commitment and can start to raise a family. People are very complicated and its difficult to assess them imo)
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#358 gunsandreligion
I have no problem with real conservatives who are fiscally responsible and learn from mistakes and learn from successes..I disagree often but its an honest dialogue.
It is the ideologues that worry me..well and also I worry about the liars who take advantage of others for their own financial gain...
Imo Sarah Palin is a religious fanatic and her religious beliefs will guide her above everything else..including reality..
When faced with problems she will consider herself like Job in the Bible and will hold to her beliefs no matter what..because she will view problems as a test from God of her ability to follow God's laws (as she sees them)
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#363 Real Frigid
Not only is it debt but other nation's corporations are buying up America's corporations. Canadian banks are buying up property mortgages in the US ...
I read your post about children and how to raise them. There is so much there it would be difficult for me to respond now..but I read it and I am thinking about it. but imo there is nothing more important than how a culture raises its children..without children there is no future.
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#363 Real Frigid
Not only is it debt but other nation's corporations are buying up America's corporations. Canadian banks are buying up property mortgages in the US ...
I read your post about children and how to raise them. There is so much there it would be difficult for me to respond now..but I read it and I am thinking about it. but imo there is nothing more important than how a culture raises its children..without children there is no future to a society.
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# 385 U11148453
"every red state from south pockets the hard earned tax money from northern and western liberal states. Republicans whine and cry and taut their "morality and family values", and yet red state of south lead the nation in divorce rate, teenage pregnancy, but then blame states like Massachusetts for allowing gay marriages which undermines the family values. BTW Mass has lowest divorce rate and lowest teenage pregnancy."
I agree that's why I wish the South had been allowed to secede. Then they would have no one to blame but themselves for the messes they are creating.
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One thing I am very curious about, is I can find no pictures of Governor Palin pregnant. It seems impossible to me that in nine months she made no public appearance.
Has anyone else found pictures? I'm not a conspiracy theorist or a mudslinger but having grown up in the religious zealotry that thrives in pockets of America I would not put it past a small town family at all to pawn off a teen pregnancy.
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Hmmm. Isn't premarital sex a sin in the eyes of the Christian right? Apparently that's a "belief of convenience" to most American Republicans.
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421, Rest.
There is one picture that presumably was taken during that period and is still available; others are said to have been removed from her site and others. There is a taped interview, still available, of her just before she made the "I am pregnant" announcement.
As a whiz-bang PhotoShopist I don't trust stills, so if there were 100 of them out there it wouldn't prove anything. However, removing them from her site is suspicious.
As for the taped interview of her walking through the streets of Juneau, that cannot be faked. You would have to go through it frame by frame - no, no, it couldn't be done. She certainly does not look seven months pregnant in that. Although she is wearing a heavish jacket, it couldn't conceal a pregnancy that far along.
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WOw..some of these comments are just ... wow
but c'mon...really i read a lot of you support Palin, and are talking about family values, and how organized and great she is...
The facts absolutely speak against the above. Are you telling me that teenage pregnancy is the latest fashion these days? that Palin and her daughter actually planned on that. Yea we were all teens once, and walked the high hormone path, but c'mon this really speaks how Palin can't even keep her family in a straight path and there are only 7 of them, let alone 300 million and plus.
But I know where this is going, this election began by playing the racist/ sexist card, and so it will end. Mccain made a very unethical choice, only to add fuel to the fire and steal women's votes. America has major mentality problems but I hope the women in America and the men for that matter, see past the color of Obama, and the gender of Palin, and instead vote for the right candidate. As far as I am concerned the OBama/ Biden team is 300% stronger than the opposition. Only the misfortune of a popular ignorance will cause failure to the Obama campaign now.
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Re comments 371, 400, 404.
[sigh] It would appear that you simply censor comments you don't like.
Further proof I guess that BBC impartiality has long since been banished to the wilderness.
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#422, 917ccacci60 :
Hmmm. Isn't premarital sex a sin in the eyes of the Christian right? Apparently that's a "belief of convenience" to most American Republicans.
---
Christians condemn sin, not sinners.
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Will she have a 6th in the white house?
She doesnt believe in contraception!
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see even to talk of how sick anti abortionists are is banned.
lordee lord let ye without sin cast the first stone.
Should have been you who have not suffered do not condemn.
Through out all history the mid wife(or witch) helped in hte case of rape victims. But we called the witches established a cult of anti abortion, devoid of Christs message 100%.
No forgiveness, no compassion, no love .All of Jesuses teachings ignored.All except one which he never went to never thought it worth himself commenting on.
Just like gays , never heard a word from Jesus against them.
Christians my God!
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I am new to this Blog, but I have to say, that Webb's blog is way off.
Let me fill you in on a the worst kept secret in American politics. The american media is in the tank for the left.
This pregnancy story has absolutely blown up in the left's faces. This is viewed as pure distilled hypocrisy and sexism from the Left, aand has energized the right. Obama is distancing himself from it as fast as he can.
Everyone here knows that kids are off limits, and for the media to come out with this attack within hours of the announcement has galvanized the right and american women.
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Have liberals ever considered that they are more dictatorial than the hated conservatives? Obviously, being 'inclusive' does not include including their conservative view. If Pallen had been a liberal, and her daughter aborted the pregnancy, the liberals would have screamed, "Choice! Choice!" But now she is not, the liberal want to choose for her and her daughter. Too young to keep a pregnancy but not too young to abort a child
Conservatives do not say that man is perfect. They say that wrong is wrong no matter who does it, even themselves. Liberals say that wrong is wrong only if done by conservatives. Or that there is no wrong whatsoever.
I salute Pallen and her courage to her conviction in the face of the dictatorship of the media and liberals.
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403. At 10:32am on 03 Sep 2008, busby2 wrote:
I understand that Sarah Palin opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to how this can equate to Christian views and values when forcing a woman to bear a child as a result of rape or incest can only be regarded as EVIL and compounding a very serious crime.
===================
Two things. The first is that, if you believe that no innocent human life should be killed, then the entire debate over abortion comes down to when life begins. Second, following that, Should the child be punished for the sins of the father?
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If you put your family on the political stage, then they are no longer a private matter. If politicians want their children and their mistakes to be out of bounds, then they need to do as the French and British do, and keep their children away from politics.
Last night's conference looked like the Brady Bunch.
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CharlieSiena432
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my message 403 in which I asked if someone can enlighten me as to how this can equate to Christian views and values when forcing a woman to bear a child as a result of rape or incest can only be regarded as EVIL and compounding a very serious crime.
You replied: "The first is that, if you believe that no innocent human life should be killed, then the entire debate over abortion comes down to when life begins".
Surely this argument falls at the first hurdle? In what way can a child conceived as a result of rape or incest be considered "innocent" and exactly the same as a child conceived by two consenting adults over the age of consent?
I presume Mrs Palin wouldn't have any trouble supporting victims of criminal attacks having their injuries treated and restored to the same physical condition they were before they were attacked. So why doesn't she think this applies to rape victims where a termination would put the woman concerned in the same physical condition as medical practices allow, ie not pregnant, that she was before she was attacked and raped?
Mrs Palin only believes abortion is justified where the life of the mother is threatened. What would be her position on abortion if a pregnant rape victim was threatening suicide? Would she then support abortion? Or would she have the pregnant rape victim confined to a mental institution and made to deliver the baby?
Your second point was "following that, Should the child be punished for the sins of the father?"
Here again, the glaring point which is totally ignored is the rape victim! The rape victim clearly has no rights under the warped logic and misinterpretation of Christian views and values of Mrs Palin, and only has the duty to deliver the rapist's child. Mrs Palin wants rape victims to continue to suffer in a way that may well ruin the victim's life. I ask again, how can Mrs Palin's views possibly be the Christian response to the crime of rape and incest?
Abortion in rape and incest cases is not punishing the child for the sins of the father but is redressing the wrongs done to the rape victim in a Christian way by ensuring the effects of the crime are not compounded by forcing her to proceed with a totally unwanted and totally undesirable pregnancy.
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I am only going to say, that I hope that the Palin's daughter: will have a healthy baby...
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