Reactions to Obama's 'lipstick' comments
Responses to "lippygate" range from the trenchant to the sympathetic but over over over academic. (The idea of the media "unearthing facts" devoid of context is simply silly - havent we understood for decades that even science exists in a broad context of human thought processes and prejudices: don't journalism professors have to study this fellow...)
All of this hugely interesting for another area of scientific enquiry: the psychology of voting behaviour. Do facts matter?
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The "lipstick on a pig" remark is a very old aphorism. That this would be a cause for objection is an indication that the Republicans have nothing substantive to complain about.
Or perhaps it is an indication of the tabloid mentality of the American electorate.
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Issues! Issues! Issues!
Will this one be added to the political lexicon as 'Lipsticking?'
Personally, I consider lipstick nasty and have seldom worn it in my almost eight decades. Also, I have raised pigs and cannot believe any of them would have enjoyed being smeared with this product at any time, although they might have eaten a tube if offered.
Have a lot of fun with this one!
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I was going to say that if Huckabee had made the remark, everyone would just say it was an endearing "down-home" expression. Then I found out Huckabee has actually defended Obama on this.
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The linked source that Justin describes as "over academic" is the Christian Science Monitor. Ironically, the criticism in this piece could have been directed at Mr. Webb, himself.
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Obama has nothing to apologize for.
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Yes, facts do matter and, in the end, McCain will destroy himself if he continues down this road. It may have been Eichmann who said 'if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it as the truth', but that phrase is now etched as a sceptical corrective tomuch political advertising.
Obama must put himself above this. My approach would be to say that McCain was once an honourable gentleman, and that his present behaviour is deeply sad, but let's not talk about the past, rather the future and the issues we need to discuss.
It will be interesting to see how strategy changes after the lunch with Clinton tomorrow.
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Is the McCain who is complaining of sexism by Obama the same one that has been running in the election campaign. Forgive me if I am wrong but is McCain not the same person who also made the exact comment regarding Hillary Clinton during the primaries. A case of the pot calling the kettle black -pardon the pun-. If anything the charge that should be thrown at Obama by McCain is that he is lacking in originality in his campaign, but this is a moot point.
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As usual when Obama is rattled by a female opponent, he opens his mouth and garbage pours out. This time in the form of a lipsticked pig and a smelly old fish.
The mind boggles-is this the language of Presidential diplomacy?
Of course the original sources for his untimely remarks -which it seems the media has no need to unearth, because they prefer to think along Kuhn lines- such as "paradigm shifts" are:
for lipstick on a pig
http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/elizabethberry/Cgsq
and the Tom Toles cartoon Washington Post Sep 5th
http://tinyurl.com/5eqg2v
The smelly old fish bit was Obama's own creative classy metaphor....
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Do facts matter?
Unfortunately, I don't really think so. It seems as if the last real political battle has already been fought. The only thing we still witness are the various ways each candidate frames himself/herself.
This is the way a relatively inexperienced candidate can call himself the candidate of change. It's the same way a politician from the party in charge for the last 8 years can call himself the candidate of change.
I just finished '1984' again, and I was struck at how our parties use political slogans very similar to the ones the party did in that book. Just how "War is Peace" and "Freedom is Slavery" were repeated until they were fact in the book, slogans like, slogans like, "We can't stand 4 more years like the last 8 years," "McSame," "Country First," "The Original Maverick," etc are shoved down our throats until we repeat them like parrots.
Both parties are guilty of this. I don't think either one really trusts the people to make a decision if their reasoning can't fit on a bumper sticker. And that, my friends, is a shame, because what does it say of us?
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The idea of the media "unearthing facts" period, is simply silly given the "context" of corporate ownership and control, and the imperative of pleasing advertisers, etc. It's equally silly to call such a silly newspaper article that sounds like it was written by an idealistic sophmore at a silly media school like Emerson "over, over, over academic". If true, it only shows how far academia has sunk - about as low as journalism and politics in silly America with silly candidates like Palin. No wonder it produces a voter psychology that leads to the inevitable behavior of not voting at all in such silly elections.
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What matters is perception. How a candidate is perceived by the public matters more than policy proposals, and more than the issues at stake. The media has a great responsibility at hand, because it has great power over public perception and political narrative. So the lack of filtering in the media is partly to blame for the dumbing down of American politics. Despite claims that this election would be about policies, it is quite reminiscent of the 04 elections.
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I might have missed it in the links provided above; but it is understood that McCain used the very same joke on Hillary Clinton in 2007 ?
Cudos to him, it's funny; and cudos to Obama's team, they did their homework.
As for pitbulls and pigs: one is ugly, mean, a menace, and utterly useless; the other one is ugly, mean, a menace, but you can eat it.
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Fair game...Lipstick is going to decide this election. Obama only spoke truth.
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Obama has lost it. He cannot grasp the fact that by not selecting Hillary for his running mate he's lost the election.
He knew full well the conotations his audience would draw from his innocuous lipstick remark. Now even that has backfired on him. He's like a stand-up comedian who is desperately trying to get the audience to stop booing him.
The best thing he could hope for at this time is for Biden to withdraw from the race for health or personal reasons and select Hillary to stop the electoral arterial bleeding. He'll be lucky to win California and his home state by November.
Women everywhere and Hillary herself are going to vote for McCain... that way Hillary won't have to campaign against an incumbent in 2012.
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It might be interesting to reiterate that Obama is running against McCain not Palin, Plain is an incidental but it seems that McCain needs to hide behind that lady's skirts (lipstick?) and snipe at Obama instead of really discussing the issues.
What a sad end for an 'American hero!' Where are you 'IRON JOHN' the man who survived a POW camp? You need a woman to save you from Obama? Stand up and be that hero you want everyone to remember and I could respect you more. This is VERY sad.
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Responses actually range from partisan to incredulous contempt.
Lippygate is quite clearly nonsense, and you do the BBC's reputation no credit in pretending otherwise.
McCain used precisely the same phrase when talking about Hillary Clinton - who surely has more right to take offense than the obviously slender Sara Palin.
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The facts do matter, and no amount of lipstick can cover the ugliness of the last eight years. The vast majority of Americans are struggling to make ends meet. As they dip into retirement nest eggs, they are struggling to pay for healthcare and education, endlessly increasing taxes at the local and state levels, and the cost burden of a needless war. Palin is simply a distraction that McCain is using to divert attention away from the real issues, and the mess he and his party have left for the rest of us to have to clean up.
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Do the facts matter?
They should, but to anyone who's already made up his/her mind on a candidate...probably not.
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Royalsan (12), you appear to have a severe personality disorder. Your beloved USA is awash with psychiatrists, so why not seek help?
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Americans do not, I repeat, DO NOT care one whit who the citizens of Europistan want to be elected as president of OUR country. In fact, there are many Americans who would vote for McCain simply BECAUSE Europistanis are rooting for Obama.
that's why europeans are making history in reaching new frontiers of science and talking about major discoveries instead of lipstick on pitbulls, and we are making history as most unwanted people who fallen behind intellectually.
Anyhow, why do I bother writing about this anymore. Ignorance is a bliss. Sound's like the republican motto no? Hurray!
Come on everyone, let's just go for a dive in the ocean of ignorance. oh don't forget, Vote for Hurricane McCain!
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I guess that using an expression with lipstick is going to cause unfortunate associations and those associations make it all too easy to label one's opponent. Pity he didn't use the expression of clothe a piug instead of lipstick. But the Freudian slip may have been telling. There is no doubt Palin has rattled the Democrats badly...
I'm not so worried about that, it's part of the electoral process. What is constantly worrying is that any person in America can have either an IQ or educational level so low as to think, for one second, that an inexperienced neophyte should be allowed to be anywhere near to the White House. What, 8 years wasn't enough to know that the puppetmasters, unaccountable, rule-bending, Constitution warping, pernicious crew to a man and woman is not enough of a danger to our country? McCain may be okay (not my pick) but the fright Palin engenders amongst anyone with a brain is frightening. Some on America, stop voting ina pol;ularity contest... this is getting serious! Can anyone see Putin and Plain in a conversation? That's the question we need to ask ourselves. Even if one doesn't like Obama, at least one knows he could intellectually hold his own, and McCain could, through experience, manage well as could Biden. But Palin? Oh, my god....
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@12 Royalsan - your comment is precisely people all over the world have an interest in this election - half of your country seems to have some sort of religious crusade mind set, a Jihad if you will, which is threatening to ruin this planet.
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I have been saying for some time that Barack Obama is doing an Adlai Stevenson. High moral ground and all that doesn't win an election, as Stevenson learned - twice.
Obama was outflanked when the republicans stole his trump card - ending the war in Iraq. But that doesn't mean the republican agenda has changed. It is merely simmering quietly on a back burner. Have they forgotten about attacking Iran? No way. And now with Iraq settling down they will be in a position to redeploy troops elsewhere.
If McCain wins, and has his warmongering pal Lieberman at his side, you woud have to be naive to think they have abandoned Bush's plan to beat the only Middle East countries independent of the united States into submission. After Iran only Syria remains.
Why Obama has not exploited this situation is beyond me. McCain attacks and Obama defends. It is time for Obama to attack. The subject of war is only area where he can take control. There are plenty of others.
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Justin, I saw your report on the 10 o'clock news.
Why are you giving the GOP free ad time, especially that ridiculous wolf advert?! Palin is the one who shoots wolves from helicopters.
It's so very depressing how the GOP always manage to successfully divert attention away from real issues.
The lipstick comment was foolish and perhaps indicative of the frustration he feels at the media love-fest for all things Palin. No-one seems to be talking about her dodgy religious associations or her abuse of public funds.
I feel so very depressed that Karl Rove and his scumbag friends are going to win again.
I don't know how Obama can get himself out of this. The only plus side is that there is a lot of time to go and many things can still happen.
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Palin says Obama got a billion in earmarks+- Senatorial privilege. She vetoes half a billion = Executive Responsibility. "Don't go there" she warns Obama.
http://tinyurl.com/5cq7mp
Is it all a bit like the dot-com bubble - now bursting ?
http://tinyurl.com/56eowg
Have Obama and David Axelrod ever fought a hard campaign against a Republican - and non-urban ?
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Brian Donnely should be ashamed of himself for his horrid reporting on "Lipstickgate". You took the phony Republican "outrage" and reported on it as if it were news.
The BBC knows the outrage was Bullshit. Why isn't it reported that way?
I can't believe that even the BBC is just another neocon propaganda outlet.
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Of course the whole thing is silly, but it somehow satisying to see the Democrats speared by exactly the sort of political correctness they have been promoting for years.
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Obama used an old and common expression that's been applied without gender distinction for years and years. Everyone in the country knows what it means and knows Obama was not applying it to Palin.
This is despicable behavior by the McCain camp.
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Fox's commentator, Andrea Tantaros, really should learn to spell: "reign in the lefties" indeed! Perhaps they will indeed 'reign', whether reined in or not.
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This is America. Therefore facts don't matter. Consider this: Roughly 1/4 of the country still believe that Bush is a good president doing a dandy job. When we consider the entirety of his career in office (which need no repeating on BBC) and the extreme resistance so many people have for Obama on such a shallow level (For instace, he associates with Bill Ayers who was once a "terrorist" against the Vietnam War and was a professor at U of C alongside Obama when they met) it doesn't surprise me at all that this is happening. How else could a woman who honestly believes that dinosaurs were here on Earth 4,000 years ago get popular support from the populace as a VP candidate? Obama used a common phrase and the Reps turned it against him. Of course recently 2 sitting Republican Congressman refered to Obama as "Uppity" and McCain didn't seem to have a problem with that. Neither did the corporate media. Hey what do I know though-I am just some "lefty liberal" who thinks the issues are more important than turning my countries politics into a circus.
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allmymarbles (#26), the Stevenson analogy dog doesn't hunt. Stevenson had the distinct disadvantage of running against Eisenhower, liberator of western Europe. (Even so, Stevenson received 44% of the vote.) The next time he ran, it was also against Eisonhower, who was still a revered general, and now also an incumbent.
It is true, though (in my opinion), that it is no advantage in American electoral politics to be an egghead.
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To#15Rsnail
I am a woman (when last I looked) and I would not vote for John McCain under any circumstances. He cannot even be 'man' enough to come out from behind Palin's skirts and actually discuss issues with Obama.
I do look forward to the presidential debates. McCain cannot hide then. I am sure that most of his responses will continue to be 'a noun and a verb plus I was a POW.' That does not impress me.
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To Allmymarbles
I DID love Adlai Stevenson. You are most probably correct that he stood too far on the high ground. Many Americans could not 'connect' with him. Also we DO worship our war heroes!
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Obamas words are being twisted into a statement he would never have made to create an issue which should not be present.
However, as Obama was happy to jump on Bill Clintons equally innoxious comments to create a race issue I'm having trouble sympathising with him. He should have known that as Palin is a woman there to get the womans vote, any comment would be overanalysed and twisted in her favour just as any comments by the republicans even slightly connected to race will be twisted in Obama's favour.
Politics its not about the message its about the soundbite and every candidate has to know this.
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Americans will vote for the president as if it was a beauty contest. And of course we have a candidate of experience there, well VP and potential president in 2yrs time, but close enough to scare anything from salmon, to deers, to wolves, to even birds from entering the US.
So why are you people still debating on our IQ level? Goleooo your words go to deaf ears, aquarizona so do yours, and others...
The same people who said Hillary is using sexism to defend herself, are using it to defent Palin.
This is how America will vote I fear: Men will vote for Palin because she has tits and wears a skirt. Obviously men in america, have a problem with a black dude running for office for reasons that I am sure you can imagine.
Old veterans who have lost their minds already of course will vote for McCain, and they still wonder what is a black dude doing running for president. (Ah the good old days, when we were soldiers and smelled each other's boots, and drank each others alcohol, and went for strippers)
Women, I am sad to say this, in America are not nearly as intelligent as they should be, thus they will be fooled into :THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A WOMAN CAN ENTER THE WHITE HOUSE...LET'S MAKE HISTORY FOR WOMEN EVERYWHERE!!! Beside Palin is the wall mart mom...even though so is Michelle Obama, but nevermind that...she is black. SHe ain't a walmart mom...she is a kmart mom.
Independents: There is no such thing as independent in this country. WHen it comes to tits mixed with a bible and a war veteran who thinks is untouchable because he was in a prison cell for 5 years and calls everyone his friend, backed by some really odd religious views, than the result is GOD SAVE US ALL.
The days of George W will be golden compared to the zinc that is approaching.
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Justin, your report for the 10 o'clock news today was shocking in its ridiculousness. You are either a closet republican or plainly foolish in falling for republican machiavellism.
I think that the Obama remark will stick in peoples' minds and in the long run make the Americans realize before voting day that it is indeed true.
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McCain's campaign said Obama's remarks were offensive and a slap at Palin -- despite the fact that the senator from Arizona used the phrase last year to describe a policy proposal of Sen. Hillary Clinton's
hahaha!
When democrats are in attack it is an insult. When the old bullshitter and his pitbull attack it is deserved....
Only in America!
R-Snail, RealFrigid, don't worry I won't comment on you anymore. You have made your position clear already. Just like Her. McPalin.
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Justin Webb writes:
"All of this hugely interesting for another area of scientific enquiry: the psychology of voting behaviour. Do facts matter?"
Apparently not, since they are so rarely brought up in any political campaign, by either side. The US press and electronic media tends to go along with the situation because they make their money in presenting what the general population is interested in hearing about.
While deplorable, it has become quite normal and to be expected in the US media.
I am discouraged that the BBC seems to be emulating the US media in the race to the bottom by pandering to the those who are more interested in political theater than in real issues.
I feel sorry for our British friends who are compelled to pay for this "journalism".
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A comment by Joe Biden might be more worthwhile considering, referring to Mrs Clinton he said "She’s a truly close personal friend and she is qualified to be President of the United States of America, she’s easily qualified to be Vice President of the United States of America and quite frankly it might have been a better pick than me."
Is a resignation in store and a new candidate waiting in the wings? Now that really would shake up the election! Going back to Justin's Eagleton example, it certainly could be done and all those women who are now clamouring for the lipstick lady would move back with a sigh of relief.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7608653.stm
"The row erupted as a new poll by the Wall Street Journal and NBC News suggested that Mr Obama and Mr McCain were in a statistical dead heat. Mr Obama held a lead of several points earlier this summer.
Another poll by CNN and the Opinion Research Foundation also put the rival candidates in a statistical tie, with Mr Obama polling 49% to Mr McCain's 48%.
The latest Gallup daily tracking poll of registered voters gave Mr McCain a lead of 49% to Mr Obama's 44%. "
Anyone at the BBC feel like pointing out to the uninformed that national polls are meaningless and that, since it's the electoral college that determines the presidency, it's the state-by-state polls that are the only indicators of value?
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ROYALSAN-
As a native-born US female citizen who has never lived in any other country, and grew up in the "middle of the country", I WILL HAPPILY MOVE TO "EUROPISTAN" IF THESE AMERICAN REDNECK IDIOTS ELECT MCCAIN! A redneck is a redneck, no matter how rich or pretty, and I don't want anymore ignorant Crusading rednecks in the White House, as President or VP! Maybe it would be good to have a President that knows basic geography, i.e. a person that knows which countries are actually countries, and which are next to each other. Just a thought...
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This is probaly McCain first bad political move in a month.
It will be a short term boomarang for Obama.
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Distortions and expressions of outrage are tactics used by both parties to put the other on the defensive and get them off message. Replays of Obama's speech indicate, without ambiguity, that he was talking about the policies of the Bush Administration when he made the "lipstick on a pig" comment. Interestingly, McCain used the same expression a couple of months ago while talking about Hillary's health care proposal, without a beep of outrage expressed by anyone. Should we conclude that Sarah has an exclusive on lipstick?
Discussing trivialities at a time when we are beset by serious fiscal and economic problems, banks and financial institutions are going bankrupt, record budget deficits, a horrible national debt and record unfunded liabilities, a worthless dollar, widespread foreclosures and personal bankruptcies, and health care and education systems that are an embarrassment for a developed nation is a sad commentary on our society.
The first thing we should do is tell our leaders and candidates to act responsibly, focus on the issues, articulate their proposals to solve our problems or head for the closest retirement home. Sadly, that's not about to happen because the truth is that we don't want to hear the truth, especially if it means taking that big credit card away from us and having to make financial sacrifices to save our country. The candidates are simply behaving the way we want them to behave: irresponsibly.
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I recommend everyone watch Jon Stewart's Daily show:
1) A reformed Maverick
2) Jon McCain's Big Acceptance Speech
3) The best news team ever _ small town
4) Vet this
5) The Person he is
6) Sarah Palin's Gender Card
and of course feel free to watch the ones on the Democrats but not many interesting hidden things there...They are just way more honest in my opinion. Yours too as you will find out.
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Obama and Biden like to hit below the belt, when someone comes along who threatens them. It looks like they would stop at nothing. Well, McCain is tough enough; and it looks like Palin's lipstick is made of GUNPOWDER! Keep Going.
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I am reminded of an exchange in an episode of The West Wing, wherby press secretary CJ Cregg tells the president's aide Charlie Young that "everyone is stupid in an election year."
He responds that no, in fact, "everyone gets treated stupid in an election year".
The media's sadistic salivation for sensationalism really doesn't help one tell the difference between the two.
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"You people" are such.......
I bow at the altar of written new speak, truely chastised and beggin' for just a smidgin' of brain power,... so awed by the fantastic analitical focus of 'the being'.
One day in power and all would be saved!
balance and peace, energy and prosperity attained by your supreme intellect.
I just note one little problem with this. Your ability flounders after pointing to the flaws in us,.. just what is the answer for the child labor? Starvation? World views of the United States? Economy? Radical Islam? Greed and corruption?
Come on now, I've patiently listened and been called "you people".
Well now, time for "The people" to eat more than cake.
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I really don't think Obama intended this as an insult to Palin. He's not stupid enough to call a female oppenent a pig, without thinking it would create a s..tstorm, and he also has more class than that. So why didn't he moderate once it became clear that was how the audience interpreted it? The audience reaction was out-sized to the funny (but not that funny) line about lipstick on a pig. Did Obama not understand they were reading more into it than he was? Is he that blind or was he so intoxicated by the applause that he couldn't help himself and stuck to his prepared dialouge?
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Hey, it's time for the name calling. Obama had better be playin' the dozens from now til November 4. Palin to me is a sleezy broad who steals in the name of the Lord and lies through her teeth.
McCain is a old opportunist husling this woman than he is using like a shill wherever he goes so that he can draw a crowd.
This are the times that try voters minds and nerves. If you can't call a spade a spade then you are the liar and Palin never took the Earmarks money. John McCain is a hero and rascal just like he declares himself to be in every other word.
The Republican Blood and Soil Convention was only new to those who have not seen Triumph of the Will. Truium of the Chritian Right is what it should have been labeled; or Triumph of Ghetto Politics with "Baby Daddy" holding full court as a model for young Christian manhood. The Second Family is a pip.
This is all Commody Central material. Obama needs to hire them for consultants since the Second Family looks behaves so much like the BAY-BAYs in the Hood. Makes me lonesome for Compton and NWA.
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There was a time, way back, when I enjoyed Mr. Webb's independent reports. In recent years he, together with the BBC, seem to have abandoned their objectivity.
The impression I get is that Mr. Webb, if not pro-McCain is anti-Obama. Only he knows the reason why. The result, however, has made it increasingly difficult to watch Mr. Webb's reports without cringing. That is sad.
As for this lipstick madness and all the other "gotcha" nonsense: I'm hoping that at some point soon there is a mass outbreak of shame and embarrassment. Is this the level of "news" "civilized" people about to vote in an election are being fed?
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Will facts matter? For most, probably not.
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Obama lost this one.
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"Presidential candidate Walter Mondale selected Ferraro to be his running mate in the upcoming election. In doing so she also became the only Italian American to be a major-party national nominee. The positive polling Mondale received when she joined him did not last until November, and they were defeated..."
on Geraldine Ferraro in Wikipedia
Will we see a repeat of 1984?
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As mentioned in #1, "lipstick on a pig" remark is a very old aphorism. Its been around allot longer than I have.
But if Palin and her party want to falsely contest something so juvenile, go right ahead, as it makes them look so utterly ridiculous.
They brought it up... and it's funny, once you think about it, and its appropriateness.
I think the republican party is more concerned with Palin's lack of credentials, in relation to the "lipstick on a pig" remark; her prior support for the 'bridge to nowhere,' which she now disavows, and her absolute inability to understand the financial markets related to housing, etc, etc, etc...
If something happened to McCain, she's in no position to run the country.
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To Many of you:
Justin Webb is a journalist. He writes things in this blog that are provocative in order to get posters to comment. Otherwise it would be very boring for any who have managed to retain some sense of humor in these trying times.
To#47Dominickvila
On a more serious note, I so agree that we really need to focus on the issues!
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Interesting
Nothing has changed for decades but the various fools born every minute.
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This is where the quote came from in number 61
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The whole he-said, she-said thing is dumb and belongs in a kids's playground. How can you let yourselves be sidetracked?
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The real point that most are missing is that this latest McCain aattack ad is just one more example of how McCain and the GOP are trivializing the campaign. They've said they don't intend to address the issues, and they aren't. Instead, they're treating the American public as if we are stupid children who respond to bright shiny objects.
Maybe we are after decades of being dumbed down by Republicans. But, I used to respect McCain. Not now, and I suspect I'm not alone.
BTW, I preduct that if McCain wins, packs the Court and watchs it reverse Roe V. Wade, there will be civil disobedience in the country not seen since the 1960's. If McCain keeps us engaged in criminal and pointless wars and reinstitutes the draft, as he's strongly suggested, all hell will break loose.
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For some levity, check out this outstanding take on the lipstick pig:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94481288
What's even more funny is that McCain actually used the lipstick on a pig remark when addressing Hillary's healthcare plan. My goodness is hypocrisy hilarious.
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aquagal, aren't you also trying to put lipstick on a pig? :-)
The Democrats didn't learn. In the 90s, the Republicans tried to smear President Clinton every way they could. And when they ran out of ammunition, he gave them more, he delivered up his own head on a silver platter with the Monica Lewinski scandal. And it still didn't work, Clinton left office extremely popular among the public at large. But now they are playing the Republican's game trying to smear Palin and it is backfiring. Will this prove a fatal mistake? I just love it when they call each other names, tell lies about each other, do whatever they can to make their opponent look bad. This is what American politics usually sinks to. Forget the issues, forget the war, forget the economy, forget taxes, forget climate change, forget dependence on foreign oil, forget universal medical insurance, neither candidate has any answers anyway. It's the spin stupid.
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To#3810Micha
I hope you are wrong. I hope that people will think more about issues than superficial things.
I will tell you this: Maybe no one cares what I say but I will keep saying what I believe. My mother often said "Light a candle, don't cry about the darkness!" I will keep saying my words and lighting my candle. If only one person listens it will be worth the effort.
We need to work together in this world for our common good. Survive together or die alone!
Rest well. I am tired and will go for now.
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Ms allmymarbles
There you go again fogging up the gossip with issues. Needy, needy issues need facts
:()~ lipstick on a pig
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a·nal·o·gy
–noun, plural -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Obama was making an analogy, is it just me or is that not obvious? Has nobody else heard of this linguistic device?
Talking of which, could I be the first to motion that we stop appending words with the word 'gate' - Watergate was so last century, it's getting tiring.
(P.S. One last gate - pigeongate in Canada - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/09/leaders-preview.html )
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I find it deeply ironic that the Republicans would complain that Sarah Palin may, after an obscure linkage, be referred to as a 'pig' (trotters in, snouts down for the big ear mark binge), when she previously referred to herself as a 'dog'.
Didn't Winnie say, when asked what animal he liked:
"I like pigs. A dog will look up to you; a cat will look down on you; however, a pig will see you eye to eye and know it has found an equal."
And Republicans do like Churchill. When it suits them.
Amused Sam
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#66
Bugger me. A first! Marcus is right!
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We make such a sport out of claiming how remarks are taken "out of context" that the expression sometimes seems banal, a political cliché - but this time, I am truly astonished at how the McCain camp has been able to turn something utterly unrelated into some masochistic, sexist diatribe about the poor hockey-mom from the far frontier.
It's a dream for him, naturally, but talk about pulling a rabbit out of a hat! He used to appear as a sort of dottering old coot, but with the way this false controversy has been created, he looks more like some political sorcerer.
Is maverick McCain finally learning the ropes of Washington? Can Obama get the debate back to the 'issues' on which the Dems seem to hold most of the cards?
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For those "elitists" who can find it, there was an article by Trow in the 'New Yorker', titled "Within the Context of No Context".
It seems our journalists are too busy to have read it.
Fundamentalist, "rednecks" exist in most places. The stranger is a threat on several levels. This is one aspect of the democratic fallacy/myth- in reality, the common man can neither lead nor govern. [We see this in the unfolding of the US election campaign and the pandering of the media types to childish issues.]
As Eisenhower saw, foretold and warned:
the USA is in the control of the miliary/industrial complex; opinion-formers are bought and perform to have the public believe as desired.
It is inevitable that the economic crash will have a Republican response: military conscription, a war economy and an attack against Iran and Syria [that may involve a Russian response and a big nuclear war].
The NeoCons will continue their successful manipulation of the evangelicals and milking of the US taxpayers, fostering further aggression in the Mid-East.
The child-minds of the voters will continue to be concerned with trivia about gays, lipstick, abortion, etc., while the probability of global disaster escalates.
The way out is for rational and far-sighted leaders to emerge and be supported. The evidence indicates that this will not happen within the USA and so there should be an international search to identify and foster such leadership.
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I don't think Obama meant Palin when he made the pig comment, but his audience certainly did. They seemed to really enjoy it.
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Is this a political campaign or a game show?
Oh, I forgot, facts matter on game shows.
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Dear good people:
I planned to rest with a good book (one mentioned as banned on the previous thread) but I really feel I must defend myself.
Contrary to the allegations of one poster, I have Never put lipstick on any pig nor would I ever wish to engage in such a practice. It is both demeaning to the pig and also to the lipsticker. (is that a word?) I have to laugh or I would cry.
Debate well and "peace attend thee, all through the night."
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I usually vote for the least worst candidate. That's what makes it so hard to choose. Thank goodness there are only two of them to consider. I don't know if I could handle weighing which of three losers is the relative heavyweight among featherweights. Good thing Presidents of the United States are not very important people...to Americans.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It's "The Emporer's New Clothes" for the 21st Century. Republicans claim they're wearing the new clothes of change and whenever anyone sees through their lies, they have enforcers to strike down the "liberal media" and Barack Obama.
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70, Sam.
Wonderful quote from Churchill. But there are so many. One of my favorites was a reply to a woman who berated him for being a drunk. He said something like this, "But when I wake up in the morning, Madam, I will be sober but you will still be ugly."
If an American said something like that he would be forced to leave public service.
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Personally, I prefer lip gloss.
Why should we be surprised that the candidates lose focus on issues and join a mud slinging fest when the polls show a statistical dead heat? My only disappointment is that the American masses are falling for such typical nonsense.
The real question is who can govern? Who will lead the US out of Iraq and raise our international profile? I think the likely answer is Senator Obama.
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Honestly can we get to the issues? This is ridiculous. If John McCain wins this election after this crap Americans deserve everything that happens in the next for years.
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#77
Aurallyanus,
Back on form quickly enough though. 1327 posts. One right. Man that bucks the averages.
Presidents are not important to Americans? Apart from the war, the macro economic policy (or for you, gas price), the Supreme Court, public sanitation, healthcare and the roads, what has the president ever done for us?
PFJ Sam
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Obama is the Gerald Ford of this decade, proving verbally inept when not 'on the script'.
Was it a deliberate insult directed at Gov. Palin?
I think probably not.
Was it a stupid thing to say in front of that particular crowd, demonstrating a lack of judgment?
Definitely, and typical of BHO.
Is it really worthy of much attention, given the other really momentous things that have occurred this week?
No.
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77, staphylococcus aureus.
And now you have added humor. Way to go, Staphy! I can't wait for the next installment. (Why do I think you are setting us up....)
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75, guns.
It's a new kind of game show. Everyone gets a booby prize.
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Xie_Ming #73
So you seem to be recommending that I vote for McCain. Where should we look for the world class leadership you recommend? Maybe China. They just showed us how to clean up the air very quickly. Just shut down industry and keep cars off the road. Problem solved. Or how to deal with dissidents. Throw them in jail at the slightest peep. Problem solved. Or maybe Russia. They just showed us how to gobble up part of another country after long careful planning and make it look entirely spontaneous, like a surprise chess gambit that has been meticulously set up. Problem solved. Japan? Wonderful recession heading their way. France? Sarko just showed he can speak out of both sides of his mouth at the same time with the best of them. Britain? Gordon Gray? Did someone say banker? Zimbabwe? Problem solved. Kenya? Problem solved. Union of South Africa? Iran? Well, I'm running out of countries Xie_ming, there are only about 200 of them. How about Canada? They are the world's nicest people... and they'll kill you if you don't agree with that.
The contrast between Obama's inexperience and McCain's experience seems to be beginning to take its toll. I'm talking about experience as politicians. Obama's chickens are coming home to roost. Whatever the reality, the surge in Iraq is being seen to be working, at least on American television where it counts for voters. Iraq is a dead issue. Meanwhile, no matter how they tried to spin it at the Democratic Convention, a lot of women came away very angry. Not only didn't Obam pick Hillary for a running mate, he didn't pick a woman. In fact the candidate of change and fresh ideas took an old party hack as his running mate. Worst of all, by picking one who is supposed to be an expert in foreign policy, he as much as admitted that he needs a mentor and a tutor. He's starting to weaken and the polls are showing it. The lipstick remark was stupid. Every time a politician who is running for office tries to be funny or cute, he risks big trouble like when McCain made the dumb remark about having to make five million a year to be considered rich.
What McCain needs now is a higher profile rerun of the blunder Obama made by going to Germany where he spoke to the Germans but didn't visit the troops in the hospital. I wonder how many Germans who cheered himin Berlin understood even one word of what he said there. A few more weeks like this last one and Obama just might get trounced....like McGovern did. Meanwhile, Palin is proving just how wrong the media pundits can be.
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It's too bad that the things we know about Obama here in the states, aren't put out there for the rest of the world to see. Unfortunately, CNN and our mainstream media - ABC, CBS, NBC, filter the news and anything that may put him in a bad light, isn't shown. Unfortunately, that extends to this country as well. Many of our own citizens don't know enough about this man. If it wasn't for FOX news, we wouldn't get half the facts about who he really is, his experience (or lack of), his bad choice of friends and associates, and his incredibly bad judgement. Put this man out there without a teleprompter, and see him self-destruct - as was evidenced by the ridiculously timed "pig/lipstick" remark. It really doesn't matter if it was directed at Palin (the people who cheered behind him certainly thought so), what matters is that he was stupid enough to say it.
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82, Darla.
It wasn't an American that chose the subject, kiddo.
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I tremble with excitement each time McCain and Palin show their true colors, yet I realize, no amount of clear logic will influence the minds of those who steadfastly believe that a white male militarist dinosaur and a white female uneducated religious zealot trump a man of mixed race who has the education, the capability, and the personal mission to get America back on track to fulfill her destiny of greatness. Should they win, we cannot whine we didn’t realize how limited and myopic they are. We cannot whine when they lie, panic, hide, or otherwise incite chaos to divert focus from the tough questions that affect our daily lives, our communities, our nation, and our responsibilities around the world. Just how will we face our children and grandchildren and explain away why we allowed such an opportunity to repair our damaged nation go by? Will they understand that we lacked the courage to admit our past mistakes, ask the world to forgive us, and stand up against greed, fraud, collusion, and corruption wherever we find it?
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#13, Fritz, I don't know where you Europeans
get these ideas about pit bulls. I know one that
is the sweetest little thing. Her name is "Gracie."
God forbid that you threaten her owner in her
presence, but loyalty, after all, is a virtue.
Now, a Chihauhua, that is a mean dog, and
hardly bigger than a hot dog...
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69, Wrong as usual. The President proposes, Congress disposes. It's Congress that decides where money goes. The President is told what to do by his advisors while staffs of lawyers work on writing bills. Then the amendments with all the pork fat on them get tacked on. Then Congress votes. The President can only say yes or no and he can be overruled if he says no. Most real decisions are out of his hands (and that included Iraq and Afghanistan.) While BBC's program America Age of Empire was badly flawed and trite, there was at least one segment which gave some insight into the complex interplay of forces and interests which shape American policy, especially foreign policy. I suggest you listen to it, it's one of the few bright spots in three hours of mostly trash.
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You hit the nail on the head, Justin. The last 8 years under Bush-Cheney proved that indeed the facts don't matter... tragically McCain-Palin is simply following that well-trodden path.
I am usually an optimist and I wish what MarkfromOxford (no. 6) said were true, but what's more likely is that McCain will end up destroying the country, not himself! I.e., via 8 years under McCain-Palin with the same deceptions and consequent decisions "from the gut"!
As always the Dems seem powerless in the face of the ruthless Republican electoral machine.
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US presidential elections have always been a bizarre mixture of the sublime and the ridiculous, but this one takes the biscuit.
For the first time we have four candidates none of whom is a middle-aged white man, and we celebrate this with a media-led orgy of ageism, sexism and racism. Democracy would be a fine system if it weren't for the people...
It's all very entertaining though if you don't take it too seriously (and why would you - the objective is only to find the best available leadership for the currently most powerful nation on earth). However, 'silly' is as good a word as any for the present state of play and I am impatient for the frighteningly awful Governor of Alaska to Palin to insignificance.
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I once put lipstick on my cat, I was 10. It must have had a deep meaning, but I don't know what it was. Maybe someone in the campaign can tell me. The cat didn't get mad, but it sure looked silly.
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13, Fritz.
Are you making a cannibalistic suggestion?
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#88 JoanieC "If it wasn't for FOX news, we wouldn't get half the facts about who he really is, his experience (or lack of), his bad choice of friends and associates, and his incredibly bad judgement." Fox News is seen all over the world as its web site shows. If Fox were as "fair and balanced" as it claims to be, that would be fine, but it is, to use a current phrase, in the tank for the Republicans. Any transgressions made by the BBC pale into insignificance by comparison to Fox. Watching their news and opinion programmes is like passing a bad accident, fascinating but abhorrent in equal measure.
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79, Twokids.
Why are you mad at the republicans for making a hash of Obama? Why don't you blame Obama for lacking political street smarts? He had this election in his hand, but he thought the issues were more important than playing the dirty politics game. The issues ARE more important once he is in office, but he has to get in office.
I am supporting Obama but am exasperated by his defenseive attitude. If they are playing by Rove's rules, he has to play by Rove's rules. High fallutin virtue be damned!
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I just want to know why the WTC 7 tower fell like a demolition when it was a steel structure building taller then any in San Diego and was not hit by the plane... I hate wacko theories, but did it all seem too neat and perfect? THE way the buildings fell when they were designed to take the impact of a plane? We have all seen building burn for ages without falling the way all 3 did... Why did they all fall like a demolition...Why did an Englishman who was working on one of the higher floors tried to tell the SEP 11 commission that his floor was evacuated for the first time EVER while working there one week before... these need answers - their not " wacko leftist theories" the link between sep 11 and Iraq made by the bush admin is suspect enough right???
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Old Abe was right when he said:
"You can fool some of the people all of the time.
You can fool all of the people some of the time.
But you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
However, what he failed to mention is that
it is only necessary to fool a majority of the people
for about 60 days or so to win an election.
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Anyone can see that sexism has been dogging Palin from the minute she accepted the VP slot a week ago, just like racism has been dogging Obama since the start. Then Obama - the master of slipping up by saying what he's really thinking - uses a lipstick-on-a-pig reference to McCain-Palin just days after Palin makes headlines with a gag about Soccer Moms and lipstick.
Coincidence? Overreaction?
Hmmm... or maybe Obama let slip a real bit of sexism here, just like he let slip his contempt for rural folk and their "guns and religion".
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99, NET.
In 1945 a B-24 bomber hit the Empire State buiding. They roped off a radius of five city blocks fearing the building would fall. There was no structural damage. Maybe the twin towers were not built to the same high standards. After the crashes there was a lot of discussion in terms of the weakness of the structures.
I was never comfortable in the twin towers. They made me nervous and I was always happy to get out. The Empire State building never made me feel that way. Did I sense something insubstantial about them? Maybe.
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And SamTyler1969, post #70: if it isn't abundantly obvious why a lady might be offended by being called a pig, you ought to get your head examined.
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A few questions for Obama: Are you for Nafta or against it? Are you for free trade in general? Will you pull out of Iraq regardless of what happens? Are you for unconditional talks with Iran or not? Is Jerusalem to be separated or undivided? I have no idea of where Obama stands on these issues. Does anyone?
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This is rediculous... enough about lipstick-gate.
"The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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When "issues" like that (i.e. Obama's lipstick remark) dominate the news, it is either that the US media systematically underestimate the IQ of the average american voter, or, that people in America have got the luxury to be wasting their time and energy on non-issues instead of real problems such unempolyment, healthcare and huge arms expenditure.
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#66 MarcusAureliusII
...but should we not be grateful that we have these ridiculous elections ? That no man stands outside our door ready to beat our brains out if we vote for the wrong person or even go to vote at all ?
Elections everywhere involve stupid things. My friend at college had an aunt who always voted for Reginald Maudling as her MP because her budgerigar was called Reggie. She was still a voter. She was as much a voter as the russian nationalists voting Zhirinovsky who probably wish America would vanish into nuclear dust. In Zimbabwe the Shona vote ZanuPF and the Ndebele are glad to be alive...
I am grateful that I probably live among the top 5% (or less) of wealth in the world and I have the liberty to scoff at lipstick on animals and other political games. It carries no intellectual responsibility - only that I participate and that I do not cavil at the choice when it is made, however it is made.
That is, when we have an election in Britain.
#80 allmymarbles
Churchill made that remark at Bessie Braddock. Wikipedia says that is disputed but it never was when I was young ( a long time ago). The context of the remark is actually very apposite because as I recall, Bessie deployed political correctness before it was invented.
...and MarcusAureliusII - according to wikipedia, she was part of the inspiration for Hyacinth Bucket.
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103, WCoast.
Why are you so upset? She has already called herself a pit bull. Pigs are smarter. She should be flattered.
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105, Parrisia.
Some of us are joking about lipstick just to have a bit of fun. This interminable campaign is depressing and very unfunny. I would like to quarantine all four of the idiots, with no access to the media, until election day.
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male Chauvinist pig
a very common statement and one that refers to men as pigs.
palin is we all said it. and I am sorry BUT SHE IS A PIG.
I don't care Obama did not say it , I will
PALIN IS A PIG
And it is not sexist but I think some should seek therapy if they think pig and sex belong in the same sentance.
Pig is also a term used for policement,(sad for pigs).
more importantly pig is used to describe a greedy person.
And this palin pitbull is a greedy republican.
So she is a PIG.
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The BBC’s HARDTALK this morning interviewed the US State Department’s propaganda chief. He claims that the USA has made no fundamental mistakes and continues to follow the correct policies.
To continue repeating unsuccessful policies is a form of mental illness. What appears to be happening in the USA is that media control is so pervasive that the government and people believe their own propaganda.
The CJCS announced to Congress that we were not winning in Afghanistan. Therefore, the solution is to attack Pakistan. Pakistan says it does not want to be attacked. The response: "we’ll make ‘em think that they are working with us".
After invading Grenada, Panama, Haiti, etc. the attempt was made to arrange a rightist revolution in Venezuela. The US ambassador has been expelled from Bolivia for fostering the separation of a resource-rich part of the country.
Brazil is arranging military contracts with France and Russia. Venezuela has just finished joint naval maneuvers with Russia and has accepted Russian bombers for Air Force training.
Moving military force up to the borders of Russia was not viewed by them as a friendly act. They have announced: "we tried to cooperate with the West, but it did not work".
Given the economic meltdown in the USA, the Republican solution will be a military draft, a war economy for the military/industrial complex and an attack against Iran and Syria.
Now, what do you suppose the people on the other side will do?
[Of course, the mighty US naval forces have done nothing to stop pirates off Somalia from capturing five vessels so far this week]
We are observing government by sound byte (it doesn’t work well).
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110, Jack.
Now you aren't grumpy; you are angry. Well I am too. But remember that although Obama is a very good choice, in terms of politicking he is a jerk that lets everyone walk all over him. He is letting us down.
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Today marks the 7th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks that took the lives of nearly 4,000 innocent human beings. Mostly Americans, but also men and women from 60 other nations.
Only 7 short years ago misguided Islamic fundamentalists captured the world's attention briefly. America, and the free world responded, and now the world again has the freedom to focus their attentions on such lofty issues as Obama's opinions on porcine cosmetics, and Walcott's hat trick.
Future generations will ask why. Why are America and Europe still free, and why Al Qaida’s heyday was counted in days rather than centuries?
Because of people who risked all wearing their nation’s cloth to protect millions who in most cases will never even know their name. But we know the name of John McCain.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." Teddy Roosevelt
Why is McCain qualified to lead?
He's a doer.
Obama is only a critic, whose most worthwhile accomplishment is attempting to wrestle a pit bull that he has confused for a pig.
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Post 100 gunsandreligion
quite right it is however even worse than that. It's only necessary to fool 50.1% of those who vote i.e. about 26% of the population at large.
Post 107 Chill0
I'd agree that those of us able to vote freely should be aware of the privilege we have. Yes elections often descend into nonsense and spin and yes we often have to chose the least worst option But atleast we can make a choice without a dictators henchmen waiting for us outside the polling booth.
PS don't mention Hyacinth you'll get Commodus too excited to type.
PPS with his affection for the snobbish Hyacinth and his pompous wine collection Commodus is appearing like Niles Crane, Frazier's brother (except a sad bitter version with an anti-brit/euro chip on his sholder - perhaps Daphne has run off with a Belgian who campaigns for the dems !)
You're all doing very well !!
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There are 2 things that I would like to know:
1. How come Obama didn't pick Hillary as his
running mate, and
2. How does Commodus know so darn much
about Britain? For a person who claims to
be an American, and apparently hates Europe
so much, how come he is so familiar with it?
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Justin,
Your reporting of this issue on the ten o' clock news last night, was so blatantly biased towards the Republicans, I think you should take up a permanent residency in the U.S. and consequently vote Republican come the election in November.
The fact that you and the BBC gave credibility to this pile of crap, has made you go down in my estimation as an organisation.
As 10Micha has said, Obama has NOTHING to apologise for, as McCain made a similiar reference to Hillary Clinton last year and we didn't have the furore that we now have. What this tells me is that the American electorate isn't very bright if they even give an ounce of credence to this bull.
What we're seeing are double standards of the highest order. And Mr Magoo (sorry McCain), is putting too much emphasis on the fact that he was once a POW, and using it to pull on the heart strings of the American public. Is he the only American that has spent time in a prison camp?? I think not.
As I've said on numerous occassions, this election is about the basic dichotomy of progressive politics in the shape of Obama, as opposed to staid/regressive politics in the guise of McCain. On that premise alone, there should only be one winner and that's Obama.
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Putting lipstick on a pig — who said it first?
“You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig”
Barack Obama, on Tuesday, on John McCain's campaign adopting his “change” mantra
“I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig”
John McCain, in October 2007, on Hillary Clinton's healthcare plan
“John Kerry tries to put a bunch of fancy, fancy talk . . . but there is nothing you can do to really - to really obscure that record. You can try, though . . . We call it putting lipstick on a pig”
Lynne Cheney during the 2004 presidential campaign
“Mr President, it's not that easy. This town is full of people very experienced when it comes to putting lipstick on a pig”
GOP Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Washington in April 2004
Source: Times archives
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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill
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US voters need to be clear that they have had eight years of a neo-Conservative administration.
The US economy is struggling and change for America and the world would be beneficial.
There will be no change with McCain and Palin, in fact it could mean more US troops being deployed to other "trouble spots" and Britain being embroiled as usual.
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66-It's the SPIN stupid!!!!
Too right it is, and I wonder why Obama is doing this....
Is he trying to avoid the issue of his one billion dollars in earmarks?
In 1000 days in the Senate that makes one million dollars a day....
That's one issue Sarah Palin is trying to hammer home:http://tinyurl.com/5cq7mp
His response is invariably spin-lipstick, pig, old, fish, smelly.
Good article in the Daily Mail on this BTW:
http://tinyurl.com/69dbga
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If fervent supporters of Obama are getting worried about things - maybe they should realise that he has never ever had to fight a tough fight against a Republican. And he and David Axelrod have not found a way to connect with the "redneck" vote, the non-urban vote. Hillary was far more effective there.
Biden is looking like a nonentity so far. So it is kinda 2 against 1, down and dirty. Where is Hillary when she is needed ? She will likely go through the motions, but her heart isn't in it for Obama, why should it be.
OK I prefer McCain/Palin. But trying to stand back, I have not yet seen any attack ads (they are all on YouTube) by Obama that hit home in the middle ground that must decide things. Team McCain have had several attack ads that are crisp and very wounding to Obama.
I don't think Obama has any chance of a really big win - bringing in Senators and Representatives on his coattails. He might get a narrow win. He spread a lot of his money in setting up organisations in states (all 57 of them?) where he optimistically thought he could snatch. Florida, for example. That all looks folly, his own people are pulling back on that to concentrate on the key battleground states.
But there are real prospects, I believe, of a very heavy McCain win.
My focus is still on Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Obama really needs them all to be home and dry. I don't think he will get them all.
McCain will have all his time free to spend largely in those states. By eschewing public funding Obama is distracted to fundraising - like in Hollywood, which goes down like a lead balloon with the redneck vote, the lunchpail vote.
Hard pounding is now starting.
But it is all to play for still. I think there is tectonic movement in the polls, reflected in the betting odds eg on Intrade - but could be totally wrong.
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Thats exactly "silly season in politics".The media people wre also caught off guard on this one. How could they go to town about ,"Lipstick on a pig".
The discusions leading to this elections ahve to be real and factual in so far as adressiong the policy and leadership failures that face the USA today are concerned.
We are sick and tired of the GOP's lack of policy and direction on their campaign.Its high time they start to talk of the economy,health,education and energy policies.
All we have heard from them is just about WAR and silly attacks on the Democrats.
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You can put lipstick on 8 Republican years of economic meltdown and foreign policy blunders, but it's still 8 Republican years of...
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# 115 - Hello Guns.
You ask why Obama didn't pick Hillary as his running mate. I don't that that there was the easy personal chemistry between them that Obama was seeking. That was very evident in the first week or so after the Biden announcement when Obama looked delighted to have a friend alongside him who would not be trying to outsmart him the whole time.
Unfortunately, as time has gone on Biden has begun to look exhausted which only goes to show what a nightmare this level of campaigning, day in and day out, must be.
Also, Obama is on record as saying that Bill Clinton was a "complication".
You only have to imagine what would be going on now if Hillary was on the ticket. The Karl Rove gang and Drudge would be throwing every Bill misdemeanour, real or imagined, at a weary electorate. It's probably better not to go there.
And if Hillary had been on the ticket, would McCain have picked Palin ? Would he have picked a woman at all ? I don't think so. I think he would probably have been allowed to have Lieberman, as an ex-Democrat, on board and Lieberman would have been put there to show where the metaphorical bodies were buried.
Class, please discuss.
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Post 113 R-Snail
A good quote form Teddy Roosevelt.
Only one problem - he stood for the "Bull Moose Party" so I suppose Palin would have shot him.
You're all doing very well !!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
G&R,
There is a vast difference between familiarity and understanding.;-)
ed
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# 115 / # 124
Methinks that the Clintons' past record of having inconvenient associates mysteriously kick the bucket (i.e. Vince Foster) factored into his choice of Vice-Presidential running mate.
Obama didn't pick the obvious (18 million vote) choice Hillary because although he could be relatively certain that he would take the election in November, his chances of surviving his term in office may be significantly diminished. Sheer coincidence of course.
Politics is a dirty business.
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Didn't John McCain publicly refer to his wife's makeup in terms so sexist and vulgar that the mainstream media had (and have) no idea how to go about reporting it? You can google 'plaster on the makeup' if you want to know what he said, but be warned, it really is offensive.
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124, 121
Angus, I think Biden will perk up. The real issue is what happens at today's lunch between Obama and Clinton. If Clinton campaigns for Obama in the dozen or so red states that matter, he will put a lot of pressure on McCain and serve as a major distraction.
And the last time I looked at a straw poll on the lipstick comments, it was 62% inoffensive, 32% offensive and the rest not sure, so frankly it's a two day wonder. On the other hand, where McCain is deeply at risk is that what has been a largely supportive press will turn against him for sleaze. That is starting to happen: if every new ad or talking point gets treated as 'today, the McCain campaign launched another sleazy accusation ...', he'll be in real trouble.
As for the various comments about the polls. In effect two matter: those taken around September 18-22 before the first debate which will provide a snapshot of sentiment about six weeks out; and those taken around 10-15 October after the first two debates which will show how much impact the debates had. After that, they are usually too volatile to be accurate. Further all polls need to be adjusted by about 2% in Obama's favour because they are heavily weighted against properly representing under-35 voters who are likely to have a more significant effect this time than most previous elections, and amongst that group Obama does very well.
Now, John:
"My focus is still on Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Obama really needs them all to be home and dry. I don't think he will get them all.
McCain will have all his time free to spend largely in those states. By eschewing public funding Obama is distracted to fundraising - like in Hollywood, which goes down like a lead balloon with the redneck vote, the lunchpail vote."
First of all this shows a genuine ignorance about how Obama raises his money: he does so via internet contributions, not by Hollywood lunches. One of the major effects of this is that it doen't take up his time. And he is very good at it: the report on his August contributions will be in the order of 60M; the total public financing package is only 85M.
As for McCain having free reign in those states, that is (a) highly unlikely; and (b) if he does place all his focus there, he will lose a great many others. Penn, Michigan and Wisconsin are still fairly firmly in the Obama column: they will be mainly Biden's responsibility along with Ohio and Indiana. What is dictating present campaigning priorities is early voting; through October the emphasis will shift.
Obama is after Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, North Carolina, Florida, Colorado, and Nevada. Iowa and New Mexico are already firmly in his column. He is within a whisker of winning. If he fails, it will not be by a landslide; if he wins, he could get over 300 ECVs.
And don't forget we've yet to get the second installment of the NE story; and Troopergate could get much more nasty.
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# 128 Snail
Good point and probably on the money
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NETCRUSHER #99
As part of a project I'm working on, I came across research about WTC7 which strongly suggests that it collapsed because of a fire which was fed by diesel fuel that had been set ablaze and was constantly being fed by pumps which continued to operate. Over time the steel on the lower floors weakened due to the heat and could no longer sustain the weight of the floors above. Fire code officials have been taking a hard look at diesel fuel storage tanks in high rise buildings. This fuel is often used to power backup and emergency generators used for various purposes including mission critical telecommunications and data centers, also life/safety infrastructure support systems such as alarms and security systems. While diesel fuel is not nearly as volitle or easy to ignite as gasoline, it is still dangerous and can cause a fire or explosion.
Mabel set the tabel, the WTC design was different from the Empire State Building. Not just in outward appearance architecturally but in specific details of its structural concept. However, in any building supported by steel columns and girders, as steel gets hotter, its strength becomes lower and its ability to support the weight of tens of thousands of tons of structure above it lessens, in that case to the point of failure. Ultimately, there is no reason to think that the same thing would not happen to any other high rise building under comparable circumstances.
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No 90. LadyBobbieBea. Congratulations, situation articulated perfectly.
No 87. MA II. I have lived in Germany for 3 years. I think you will find that the German nation and large majority of the 200,000 German people who attended what they viewed to be such a positive and forward looking event in Berlin understood exactly what Sen Obama said.
Well, to voters and interested onlookers looking for genuine change, real change, after such a failed eight year record, steady in the ranks. For those like me rooting for a Democratic win after the catastrophy that was GWB, yes, it is on course and will become reality in 7 weeks 5 days on Tuesday 4th November 2008. I am actually more positive and confident with the situation, as is now, than before Gustav. Recessionary forces, indivisibly linked to this administration, are still on the march and encroaching head long into the lives of the US electorate. There will be much more addditional pressure brought to bear on ordinary Americans over the next seven weeks.
I predicted a chaotic two week phase post the GOP convention, after which the swirling mists of surprise and confusion sewn on the electoral battlefield would clear. They will.
I have also said that I have zero personal against Gov Palin. But crucially, at this level of appointment, it is absolutely right and morally correct, due to her late candidature and as yet unknown profile, nationally and globally, to ensure this is set out in full as a key priority.
Responsibility, prudence and better judgement might have dictated this announcement very much earlier to mitigate the ensuing pressure on her and her family. The media has a job to do. Albeit never comfortable for one side, it is called checks and balances. The process will settle and revert to core issues, the transparency and reality of the track record of failure over the the last 8 years plus emerging truths and facts.
I also add a comment on US military operations. On Iraq, beware. Much political hype and self agrandishment over the surge and carefully timed announcements on troop reductions. Do not be surprised if this virtual bubble is not pricked with a seriously loud bang over the next few weeks and major political ramifications and fallout.
On developments in Afghan counter insurgency operations, I salute the stance of the Pakistani military Chief over sovereignty issues. The US approach to the hearts and minds battle and actual ability to isolate insurgents in this region is as far away from reality as the Admiral Mullen fresh assertion that he believes the US can win. Win what exactly?
In the meantime, my advice is don't get drawn into crass childish bickering on here. Let those avidly besmirching wage war on shadows. Keep the initiative, stay firm in belief, keep them guessing and focus on other positive initiatives and activities.
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Gutter Politics: McCain Campaign Called Out For Half-Truths
So it seems the "scorched Earth" policy may be finally backfiring. The betting odds have reversed their trend (for the moment).Perversely, it reminds me of Saturday morning television kiddie shows - the hero getting pounded by the villain as we sit on the edges of our seats and worry....;-)
ed
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Do I care? Not a lot. I do care about the latest essay in US hypocrisy. When a US company wins a contract outside the US that's competition. When an overseas company wins a contract even with an US partner that's unfair, they change the rules and scrap the contract. The recent behaviour of the US re the air tanker contract is typical. Justin you wonder why we don't like them? They stink, they're greedy arrogant two faced hypocrites and if they get McCain/Palin they deserve it. Only problem with that is we'll have to deal with the consequences when they get it wrong.
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Bill Tyrone,
Well said, that man, and LadyBobbie too.
Now to watch the cartoons
;-)
ed
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I should add the crucial player in the Troopergate affair might well turn out to be Judge Suddock. He would be quite within his right, given his ruling in 2005, to order full disclosure of all documents, including Palin's private Yahoo emails, in order to determine whether his ruling has been breached.
In 2005, the judge stated that further attacks against the father (the ex-husband of Palin's sister and the 'trooper' at the centre of the row) would constitute emotional abuse of the child, in which case he was prepared to award custody to him rather than the mother. As part of that ruling he specifically extended his ruling beyond Palin's sister to cover Palin and other members of that family with the instruction that it was the mother's responsibility to keep her family in line.
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Data from the latest poll...
Who will not just talk about it, but actually get something done? About half of voters (49 percent) think Obama is a "talker" and 34 percent say he is a "doer." For McCain, 30 percent say he is a "talker" while a 54 percent majority says he is a "doer."
Maybe being seen as a "doer" is why 52 percent say McCain would be best at surviving alone on a deserted island — far outdistancing Obama (19 percent), Palin (16 percent) and Biden (4 percent).
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Answer "phony outrage" with "phony outrage".
Is that the "change" he has been promising?
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138, R-S:
If you know of any nice desert islands, I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd club together for a hammock, and a collected set of Solzhenitsyn to help him enjoy his retirement.
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BillTyrone #133
Did the audience in Berlin understand what Obama said? He said it would take a lot of work for the US and Europe to patch up the differences between them. Now what did he mean by that? It was Europe which blew up its cultural bridge, or what was left of it to the Americans. It was Schroeder and Chirac who exploited and ignited anti-American feelings throughout Europe. It was Chirac and deVillepin who said they wanted the EU to confront the US, to be a "counterweight" in a bipolar world. The EU is bipolar. When it feels secure the way it did in 2003, it is arrogant and confrontational in its attitude towards the US. when it is frightened, it comes crawling back like a lost puppy the way it is now. Why else whould Merckel, Brown, and Sarko have paid a visit to President Bush, our lame duck President last year to lick the man's boots? Do you recall that Merckel even asked him to have the US merge with the EU at the same time Sarko and the Austrians were telling the Turks they could never join because they are not Europeans? What Obama was telling them was that it is THEY, the Europeans who have to do this work. They have to convince ordinary Ameicans that they are still worthy of being seen as allies. Right now that would be a very hard case to make in America.
T1M0thy #135
I like your attitude. The US and Europe are already in a trade war. Escalating it would be the best way to go for America. Recession is the winter of capitalism. It's a time when the weak die off so that the strong can come back even stronger when spring arrives. The US government cannot stop winter but it can to a degree direct where the worst blizzards and cold spells will occur. The coming round of inflation in the US combined with recession will favor American corporations and debtors over foreign exporters and lenders. Too bad the Koreans could not be suckered into buying bankrupt Lehman Brothers. Maybe a European bank will be tricked into it. Gotta love how Chrysler turned into a fiasco for Daimer. You can see how the US feels about Europe by the pressure Congress put on the Air Force over the tanker deal. Watch for more of that. Buy American.
BTW, you like most Europeans are delusional about Obama. McCain is the free trade advocate. Obama is the protectionist candidate. His friends are American labor whose jobs he will try to protect by laws which unlevel the playing field. Perhaps we'll have another taste of Smoot Hawley. It only takes a vote in Congress and a stroke of the pen for the US to withdraw from WTO and NAFTA, something a lot of Americans would like to see happen. Can the US bankrupt China and Europe? Maybe. It bankrupted the USSR.
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Obama becoming the president of America will be the best thing that will happen to the good people of America .I just pray that Americans do not miss or loose this opportunity as i see the evil hands of the republicans trying to destroy their hopes for another 4 year term in office.
Mc cain can distance himself if likes, from the the white house but the pure truth is that there are no basic differences between the Bush Administration and that of mc cain should he be elected president, come november 4th 2008.
Russia,is bitterly angry with the Bush Administration and they have reasons to be.The so called war on terror has lost is meaning,taking into consideration comments from American commanders that are in charge in Afghanistan.The economy is in total ruins.Bush invaded Iraq inspite of warnings from both the United Nations and other super powers.
Just yesterday,a white house source admited for the first time that both the american inteligence operatives and the military have limits contrary to what they the republicans have made the American to believe.And are even proud to say they have no supper powers.The difference between having no "supper powers" and being a "supper power"seems to many a clever after-thought.
It is therefore time to take stock and i urge the Americans to rally their support behind obama lipstick or no lipstick.He is the candidate with clean hands to negotiate.He is the candidate that can bring about the American dream.He is the candidate that can correct and put back America on course again.
What Obama said was very straight and every sound mind should be able to understand what Obama meant.Mccain feels by bringing someone that seems to know so little about america,he will be using his accusations and propoganda to change the course of events in the presidential elections.We are all watching but one thing is certain,mccain should come out and challenge Obama with both his economic and foreign policy agenda instead of making personal attacks on Obama.
Or is he really loosing bearing?Someone should tell us please.
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As far as Biden switching out for Hillary. Great idea but, and I may be wrong on this, he was nominated by his party during their national convention. He can quit but I think they would have to have another convention to properly nominate another candidate. Anybody out there with a firm handle on the protocol in this matter? Might figure prominently in the immediate future.
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MarkinOxford
Obama raises a lot of his money from big donors and through bundlers - it is a myth that it is all from small people via the Internet.
Obama is spending much of a day later this month with the glitterati in Beverly Hills, for example - 18 September, I believe. Lots of Repub photo-ops maybe Whcih means a day away from the battleground states.
You say Penn, Michigan and Wisconsin are still firmly for Obama. Wrong. Try checking the latest poll figures eg at RCP. Last I saw the AVERAGE poll figures, McCain was only 2 points behind in Michigan, 2 points behind in Pennsylvania - and the average is a tie in Ohio.
How on earth can that be "firmly in the Obama camp" ? So please stop throwing the "ignorance" tag around - stick to the figures, please.
Yes, Obama is looking well ahead in Wisconsin right now.
But of those 4 BIG electoral college states, maybe the key states, Obama looks wobbly at least. And I contend that he probably needs all of them to sweep to power, if McCain keeps one or even two of them, Obama probably loses.
You say they are mainly Biden's responsibility. I would not bet on Biden cutting much ice, there or anywhere.
You list some states that Obama is chasing. My point is that he has spread resources into those states but that could be looking a waste of resources. For example - among the states you mention, the RCP averages show McCain substantially ahead in Indiana, North Carolina, Florida and Missouri Like 7 points in Missouri - I contend that Obama is wasting resources there.
"You can summon spirits from the vasty deep - but will they come, I know not"
You then say that Nevada, Iowa and New Mexico are "already firmly in the Obama column". Hmmm The RCP averages show McCain 1 point ahead in Nevada - how can that be firmly in Obama's column ? New Mexico Obama is 2 points ahead - that doesn't look "firm" to me. But yes, Iowa is looking good for Obama.
You concentrate on Obama's wish-list of states. He is doing less well on that wishlist than you suggest. But yes, some may go his way.
But don't you think Mccain too has a wishlist ? Obama could win Iowa and New Mexico for example (but I rather doubt New Mexico. But likewise McCain could get some of his targets ? New hampshire is in his sights, for example - a slende lead there for Obama at preent.
It is the BIG battleground states with large electoral votes that really matter, I thinlk, not the tiddlers. I believe. Suggesting that Obama neeeds a clean sweep of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan looks not too bad at all for McCain right now.
The game is wide open. You suggest Obama has it locked away, I think your remarks and plain wrong figures reflect the complacency in the Obama camp.
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Straws in the wind?
Credit is just another word for "belief" or "faith"...
;-)
ed
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MarkfromOxford
You place a lot of faith in Troopergate.
I think it will turn out a wash. The present investigation is being run by Palin's political opponents, anyone can see that.
It could turn out to be so minor that people will say "So what". If it was as big as you think - how come the people of Alaska, who will know much more already about it than anyone here, are still so firmly behind their Governor ?
Never build a house on sand.
And if Troopergate is the best you can do - you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till the allegations against bth Obama and Biden start hitting the headlines. I think they could be perceived as far more serious than Troopergate, proven or not they will do serious damage.
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140 Mark
If you're talking about McCain. He doesn't need to read about the Gulags he's got experience in one.
If you're talking about Obama. At 19%, he probably wouldn't survive longe enough to finish the book.
This dialogue is making me hungry... I need to check out post 142's "supper power".
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McCain and Unable?
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Timothy # 135.
If the November election delivers to a bemused world four more years of the same, it is probable that voters in democratic countries, other than the US, will deny their elected leaders a mandate to participate in further American adventures.
This has already happened in Spain and Australia. In the UK, support for Bush led directly to Tony Blair's downfall.
Although Merkell and Sarkozy have thus far been supportive of Bush in the hope of making progress towards peace, their voters want to see some results from their efforts. Four more years of a neocon mindset will not be seen as progress.
It is sad to be writing this on 11 September, but it is a fact that the international support and sympathy of 2003 has been squandered by one very bad unresolved war and by the use of torture and illegal incarceration.
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Sarah Palin is a hero to all women in the world and we should be proud that John McCain had the foresight to bring her on the ticket. Barrack Obama's predisposition to slight her because she is a woman is a sign of how he would govern as president. America does not need a man who shows a complete and total lack of respect to the female gender. Shelley Liberto
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#149 wanderingangus
I am not familiar with that. Could you explain please ?
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The lipstick strategy may be despicable, but it got Obama on the defensive and off message. The truth is that the Palin factor has propelled McCain to the forefront even in states the Democrats were hoping to capture. McCain now has a comfortable lead in Virginia, Missouri, Ohio, Michigan and will probably capture Ohio as well. Obama is not even competitive in Florida. Barring a Biden resignation and Clinton joining the Obama team, he is history.
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# 150
After a quick poll of the females in the Angus household, I can assure you that she is not a hero here. In fact she is regarded as an anathema who denies the rights that brave women have fought for, abuses the environment and, from verified reports, misuses the power that has been granted her.
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144. At 12:37pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
MarkinOxford
Obama raises a lot of his money from big donors and through bundlers - it is a myth that it is all from small people via the Internet."
A myth in your eyes. Perhaps confining your reading to extremist news sources then repeating wht they say without thinking is the problem
"Obama is spending much of a day later this month with the glitterati in Beverly Hills, for example - 18 September, I believe. Lots of Repub photo-ops maybe Whcih means a day away from the battleground states."
California is not a pivotal state? How many electoral college votes does it have again?
Again powerful political insights
"You say Penn, Michigan and Wisconsin are still firmly for Obama. Wrong. Try checking the latest poll figures eg at RCP. Last I saw the AVERAGE poll figures, McCain was only 2 points behind in Michigan, 2 points behind in Pennsylvania - and the average is a tie in Ohio. "
Sorry even with the republican bounce Obama is still ahead?
Again the world turned upside down sort of politics.
When Obama is ahead he is in your eyes behind.
How on earth can that be "firmly in the Obama camp" ? "
Because he has held on to them and will now build his lead. Any other basic lessons in politics?
So please stop throwing the "ignorance" tag around - stick to the figures, please.
Yes, Obama is looking well ahead in Wisconsin right now."
Are you sure? In your eyes that means he is failing doesn't it?
"But of those 4 BIG electoral college states, maybe the key states, Obama looks wobbly at least. And I contend that he probably needs all of them to sweep to power, if McCain keeps one or even two of them, Obama probably loses."
But you contend Obama "consorts" with terrorists (but are unable to back the claim), has achieved "nothing", is a socialist appeaser (whatever that is).
So your judgements about him are not formed from sense, but from other considerations.
You say they are mainly Biden's responsibility. I would not bet on Biden cutting much ice, there or anywhere.
"You list some states that Obama is chasing. My point is that he has spread resources into those states but that could be looking a waste of resources. For example - among the states you mention, the RCP averages show McCain substantially ahead in Indiana, North Carolina, Florida and Missouri Like 7 points in Missouri - I contend that Obama is wasting resources there. "
But you would contend Obama is wasting resources everywhere. And part of the idea of competing in these states is to build a national momentum. He depicts himself as a national candidate.
""ou then say that Nevada, Iowa and New Mexico are "already firmly in the Obama column". Hmmm The RCP averages show McCain 1 point ahead in Nevada - how can that be firmly in Obama's column ? New Mexico Obama is 2 points ahead - that doesn't look "firm" to me. But yes, Iowa is looking good for Obama."
Which means you concede he is ahead?
Wow
"It is the BIG battleground states with large electoral votes that really matter, I thinlk, not the tiddlers. I believe. Suggesting that Obama neeeds a clean sweep of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan looks not too bad at all for McCain right now."
Doesnt look to good for him either.
"The game is wide open. You suggest Obama has it locked away, I think your remarks and plain wrong figures reflect the complacency in the Obama camp."
The effect of the weeks earlier figures, Palin's continuing scandals and McCain's failure to actually articulate clear distinct and feasible policies, plus the ccontinuing economic uncertainty play into Obma's hands
As many of us have always said, the man is masterful campaigner and extremely determined not to make the mistakes of the past.
His timing is excellent and he has more than stood up to the Rovian tactics McCain is trying to employ.
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Much ado about nothing. The two candidates should be concentrating on real issues which matter to the poor and the needy. Not cheap jibes at each other or their running mates. Right now the economy should be centre stage. Too much attention is being given to the suitability of Sarah Palin, her conservative views and her attributes! The country is on a downward slide. Politicians need to realize this and voters should vote sensibly. America needs a real leader: humane, capable and inspirational somebody like JFK. Obama fits the bill.
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A question for all those enthusiastic about Obama's speech in Germany, especially those from Europe.
Did you listen to the whole speech, especially the part of Europe having to contribute more?
If so what are your thoughts?
This is not an accusation or a cheap shot, I am generally curious.
Someone who ignores the polls and is confident of one thing in the race; it will be close.
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150. At 12:59pm on 11 Sep 2008, shelleyliberto wrote:
Sarah Palin is a hero to all women in the world and we should be proud that John McCain had the foresight to bring her on the ticket. Barrack Obama's predisposition to slight her because she is a woman is a sign of how he would govern as president. America does not need a man who shows a complete and total lack of respect to the female gender. Shelley Liberto"
Total lack of respect? His wife (who is a woman) might disagree with you.
Your assertion that someone like Palin is a "hero" insults millions of women who have bothered to get themselves an education and are capable of telling the truth in a consistent manner.
Many women also find her calling herself a dog, not particularly inspiring.
So maybe you need some respect for your own sex.
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# 151 - even George Bush admitted it during a news conference just before TB left office.
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Shelley Liberto #150
Well that's new, Ms Palin as a hero. In my opinion Sarah Palin is a disaster as a woman and even more so as a mother. She totally failed her daughter Bristol and as a result the girl is now pregnant. This points to a failure in the basic parental imperative to inform and educate one's children and as the female member of a partnership the onus is even greater on the mother to ensure that her children have a sound grounding in sexual behaviour and the consequences of it. One only hopes that the poor child is not suffering from any STD's as a result of her poorly informed sexual experimenting. One can only presume that Bristol's lack of sexual knowledge springs from her mother's obnoxious Christian fundamentalism.
As a final thought, most in the West make great play of arranged marriages in the Moslem and Hindu communities, would anyone care to comment upon the concept of serious parental pressure being applied to a 17 year old child in order to protect her mother's electoral chances.
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144, John:
I take a lot of care where I place my commas and full-stops. If you look back you will see that I said Iowa and New Mexico, were safe. I mentioned Nevada in the list of target states.
Perhaps the following might interest you: as you know the WSJ is not a leftwing paper; rather it is staunchly Republican. This is the link:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122100770790617553.html
It has McCain ahead by 1% in Nevada, 0.7% in Virginia, and 1.3% in Ohio. It has Obama ahead by a significant 4.7% in Pennsylvania, and more importantly by 9% in Iowa and 4.3% in New Mexico. Rather closer is Colorado with Obama ahead by 1%. The most at risk blue states are New Hampshire at .3% to Obama, and Michigan at 2.8% to Obama.
And I'm not worried about the spread of Obama's resources. I thinjk he could push still further. Nor does one fundraiser constitute spending all his time in California ato raise funds. I'm sure he'll also visit Nevada, NM, and Colorado while out west.
Now, go back to my comment that the polls significantly under-represent under 35 voters. They are likely to to be out overall by c.2% because their data is skewed. As Florida is 3% McCain this brings it back into the at risk group.
Overall, that suggests that Nevada, Colorado, Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and New Hampshire are the closest states to call in the election, and all but the last are GOP states. As McCain would seem to be two states down already (Iowa, NM) that means that Obama only has to pick one of the first five up. All you have to do is pray that it is not a 269 all draw which is what I believe Nevada gives as a result.
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Palin versus the Feminist Sisterhood in the Dem camp.
I like the line of her bashing opponents with a moose antler.
http://tinyurl.com/5b3gwu
The EVIL Karl Rove on Obama's folly in focussing on Palin :
http://tinyurl.com/57eu45
A Democrat attends A Repub rally to see and feel Palinmania :
http://tinyurl.com/55j89j
A very sharp critique of Obama's campaign strategy by a senior Clintonite :
http://tinyurl.com/6dmj23
Criticism of Obama's perceived elitism by a lifelong Democrat :
http://tinyurl.com/63bzvs
Another Democrat says Obama blundered badly on lipstick :
http://tinyurl.com/5f2tpl
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147, R-S
You are obviously unaware that Solzhenitsyn is McCain's favourite author.
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156. At 1:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
A question for all those enthusiastic about Obama's speech in Germany, especially those from Europe.
Did you listen to the whole speech, especially the part of Europe having to contribute more?
If so what are your thoughts?"
Yes we did.
You are aware of the principle that the more one contributes the greater one's say?
The problem here is that on past form, while the US seems very keen on getting bigger contributions, it seems less keen on the second part of the principle
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#141 MarcusAureliusII
Thanks for that MarcusAureliusII but actually most of us dumb Europeans do realise that the Democrats stand for more protectionism. While I can understand that you feel that the US can weather economic storms better than the rest of the world I wonder if that's true. I rather suspect it's arrogance.
In the meanwhile I think most Europeans feel that another bout of unrestrained Republicanism of the sort that led to the appallingly lax financial controls and sub-prime scandal is just too dangerous. I'd rather take my chances on Democrat protectionism than more Republican failure to govern at all. Plus the fact that the thought of McCain dying and leaving Sarah Palin as President of the USA is clearly just too awful to contemplate.
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Re-formatted from Open Secrets
Contribution Details:
McCain
25261 females gave $34,169,121
67854 males gave $87,977,012
93115 122,146,133 Avg $1,311.78
Obama
72613 females gave $75,320,799
96515 males gave $105,179,341
169128 180,500,140 Avg $1,067.24
Of course, like all data, this is probably out of date, and "selective" in indeterminate ways. Notably, so far as I can tell, the data above only includes contributions of over $200, but even so, it shows a rather lower average for Obama than McCain...
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Whether Obama's remarks were innocent or not it was an absolutely stupid gaffe. He is clearly rattled by the resugence of the Republicans and this will be the test for him now. It is all very well making clever speeches when the media are fawning all over you but now he is going to have to work hard to get the support of the American people.
Interesting times.
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159. At 1:28pm on 11 Sep 2008, T1m0thy wrote:
Shelley Liberto #150
"obnoxious Christian fundamentalism.
As a final thought, most in the West make great play of arranged marriages in the Moslem and Hindu communities, would anyone care to comment upon the concept of serious parental pressure being applied to a 17 year old child in order to protect her mother's electoral chances."
Yes this did stand out as a fairly disgusting form of exploitation.
Using one's family to get electoral advantage is as old as the hills.
But desperately trying to arrange a marriage to cover an inconveneint pregnancy, so as not to seem hypocritical is appalling.
Moreover it is an indication that this woman will do anything to get elected.
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MarkinOxford
Of course California has lots of electoral college votes. But it is already strongly in Obama's camp - so why is he going there - fundraising is the answer, fundraising among the Hollywood elite. Which won't play well in Peoria.
You said Obama had various states in the bag. That was false according to RCP averages.
How you WANT things to go is not necessarily how they will go. No-one knows right now how the 2 sides will succeed in promoting thir core messages, or in their attacks on the other side.
If Obama is such a great campaigner - why is he perceived widely as being off-balance right now - even among a lot of Democrats ?
McCain now has a fully united party. Obama doesn't. Obama was big news - now Palin is the big news.
You imply that Obama has it in the bag. I say it is wide open. That is the nub of it. I think you are being complacent - which is a touch unwise.
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Of course voters will believe the hype. The majority of voters are a bunch of hypocrite C graders anyway. If it's packaged correctly they'll believe anything.
For example, deliberately bombing civilian targets makes you a war criminal, but alas, in the States you're made up to be a hero. How many unarmed women and children did he kill? Of course it's all right when 'we' do it but not for others.
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#158 wanderingangus
I would appreciate a link to the Beorge W Bush remarks, if you have it.
In the meantime, you might appreciate this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/apr/07/post3
It is from April this year. A sample:
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130. MarkFromOxford You have made the post of the day (cue fanfare). Everything that you have stated is 100% spot on. If only a few more of the idiots on this blog had were as incisive as you are on these issues.
Take no notice of JohnAAA, and his claims that barack doesn't just procure funds via the internet, but from hollywood "bigwigs". He clearly has a very short memory as Obama's accounts have been perused thoroughly and no discrepancies have been found. It's just another red herring - AGAIN. Rebpulicans are full of them - and other things :-)
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"161. At 1:37pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Palin versus the Feminist Sisterhood in the Dem camp.
I like the line of her bashing opponents with a moose antler.
http://tinyurl.com/5b3gwu
The EVIL Karl Rove on Obama's folly in focussing on Palin :
http://tinyurl.com/57eu45
A Democrat attends A Repub rally to see and feel Palinmania :
http://tinyurl.com/55j89j
A very sharp critique of Obama's campaign strategy by a senior Clintonite :
http://tinyurl.com/6dmj23
Criticism of Obama's perceived elitism by a lifelong Democrat :
http://tinyurl.com/63bzvs
Another Democrat says Obama blundered badly on lipstick :
http://tinyurl.com/5f2tpl"
We all know the extreme right, like yourself, do not like Obama.
Their comments are eminently predictable, except apparently to you.
We all know why as well.
Obama's rebutal made the republicans look ridiculous
It is interesting that McCain's team associate women with pigs. Then
Palin calls herself a dog of course.
Its very curious.
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MarkinOxford
Thank you for the link to the WSJ - which often has preo-Dem editorials, by the way.
I have tried the link - but I am getting "Page unavailable". Was it an averaging of polls - or just state-by-state figures from only a WSJ poll ?
I prefer to keep track of the RCP site- because it is updated day by day, the fullest online poll coverage easily and readily accessible.
So I was pointing out that the comprehensive poll averages at RCP do not support a lot of what you say.
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test
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168. At 1:50pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
MarkinOxford
Of course California has lots of electoral college votes. But it is already strongly in Obama's camp - so why is he going there - fundraising is the answer, fundraising among the Hollywood elite. Which won't play well in Peoria."
You think he should fundraise in Peoria?
"
"You said Obama had various states in the bag. That was false according to RCP averages."
Not according to your figures
How you WANT things to go is not necessarily how they will go. No-one knows right now how the 2 sides will succeed in promoting thir core messages, or in their attacks on the other side."
Odd given your view that every attack on Obama succeeds and every attack he launches fails.
Taking verbatim accounts from committed right-wing news sources is hardly going to allow you to assess the situation.
I"f Obama is such a great campaigner - why is he perceived widely as being off-balance right now - even among a lot of Democrats ?"
This is typical. He isn't, it is just your wish fantasy. The WSJ, Right-On etc are not the US
You may not like the man (we know why) why not admit he is a superb campaigner, that is just a fact.
Some of us did not like Nixon, but he campaigned better than Hubert Humphrey
"McCain now has a fully united party. Obama doesn't. Obama was big news - now Palin is the big news."
Yes but not good news.
"You imply that Obama has it in the bag. I say it is wide open. That is the nub of it. I think you are being complacent - which is a touch unwise."
Obama gives no sign of complacency, he is running an effective campaign. His rebuttal to desperate Republican attacks has been excellent.
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168, John
Do take a bit more care in the china shop ... the person who commented on California was Simon (at 154), not me (at 160). As you will see, there, I'm using Wall Street Journal figures from an article two days ago: I hope that source is suitably objective for your purposes.
As an addenda, however, for some mysterious reason the final paragraph 'And I'm not ... while out west' has moved up into the middle of the comment: for any so interested, it should be read at the end.
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# 170
So ?
And no, I haven;t got a link to the press conference but, as previously stated, it was the final one before Blair left office. So that was last year.
If you missed it, you can't have been concentrating.
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171. At 2:01pm on 11 Sep 2008, ezekielthemack wrote:
Take no notice of JohnAAA, and his claims that barack doesn't just procure funds via the internet, but from hollywood "bigwigs". He clearly has a very short memory as Obama's accounts have been perused thoroughly and no discrepancies have been found. It's just another red herring - AGAIN. Rebpulicans are full of them - and other things :-)"
He also beleived no Senator could win this election, until it was pointed out that both candidates were Senators.
He also beleives Obama "consorts" with terrorists, though how he does this without being arrested he cannot explain.
His views on Obama are not based on knowledge but other considerations.
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ezekielthmack
I am not criticising where Obama gets his funding. Let alone suggesting there are account discrepancies.
But it is a matter of financial fact that he too relies to quite an extent on various big donors and bundlers including law firns and businesses (inluding some oil money). Why else is he going to Beverly Hills later this month ? - California is in the bag for him, barring a huge landslide. What was George Clooney doing this month in Switzerland ? It is too early to go skiing - he was leading a big fundraising jolly for Obama
Obama does NOT rely exclusively on small contributions, that is a good story but it simply isn't true.
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#172 Simon21
I don't know anyone here is 'extreme right'.
I don't know that either.
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Simon21
I do not dislike Obama. I do not rate him as being equipped for the Presidency. I think he is overblown, over-rated. With feet of clay.
You appear to dismiss the articles I posted as being from extreme right-wing sources.
If you bothered to read the articles - you will see that several are by DEMOCRATS.
So your response sounds kneejerk again. Why not refute, if you can, what the various DEMOCRATS are saying about Obama's campaign.
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Simon21
Quit trying to play the racist card, it really is stupid
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
171, 173:
Ezekiel, thanks :)
John, the way I relocated it was to go to the WSJ main page and search for 'electoral map'. You'll find an article from the 9th about reverting to the usual states.
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#162 Mark
Really... I didn't know that... However, I'm not a partisan Democrat... I'm an independent thinker, so I don't just believe everything I'm told... and you're wrong...
(I don't know how to put the hyperlinks into this post... so you'll have to read the Chicago Tribune cut and paste)
Born: Aug. 29, 1936, Panama Canal Zone, Panama
Education: U.S. Naval Academy, BS 1958; National War College, attended 1973-1974
Military Service: Navy, 1958-1981. Awarded the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, 2 Bronze Star Medals, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross
Career: Navy officer; Senate Navy liaison; beer distributor
Political career: U.S. House, 1983-87; U.S. Senate, 1987-current; sought the Republican nomination for president in 2000
Religion: Episcopalian
Family: Married Carol Shepp, 1965; divorced in 1980. Their children: daughter Sidney and Shepp's sons Doug and Andy from a previous marriage, whom McCain adopted
Married Cindy Hensley, 1980. Their children: Meghan, John Sidney IV and James. Adopted daughter Bridget from a Bangladesh orphanage
Tunes on his iPod: Naval and maritime songs, a gift from the United States Merchant Marine Academy's graduating class of 2007
Political hero: Theodore Roosevelt.
Movie he cites most often: "Weekend at Bernie's," in which two young executives create the illusion that their murdered boss is alive to avoid being questioned and ending a beach party
Favorite movie: "Viva Zapata"
Favorite television show: "24"
Favorite stump speech joke: "Two men were standing in the prison chow line. One turns to the other and says, 'The food was better in here when you were the governor.'"
Favorite food: Shrimp, and pizza topped with pepperoni and onions
Food most frequently found on his campaign bus: Doughnuts
Most common warning to reporters: "You're going to wind up in rehab from eating all those sugar doughnuts."
Most common line on the stump: "I would be happy to take whatever questions, comments or insults you might have."
Favorite saying: "As Chairman Mao used to say, it's always blackest before it's totally black."
Favorite author: Ernest Hemingway
Favorite book: "For Whom the Bell Tolls"
Currently reading: "Einstein, His Life and Universe" by Walter Isaacson
Books he has written with Mark Salter: "Character Is Destiny: Inspiring Stories Every Young Person Should Know and Every Adult Should Remember"
"Faith of My Fathers: A Family Memoir"
"Hard Call: Great Decisions and the Extraordinary People Who Made Them"
"Why Courage Matters: The Way to a Braver Life"
"Worth the Fighting For: the Education of an American Maverick, and the Heroes who Inspired Him"
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john mccain has used the phrase "lipstick on a pig" on at least 7 occasions -
as per broadcast on ODDBALL last nite.
McCain needs to talk about the real issues which he as a republican help to create instead of using diversions such as the LIPSTICK ON A PIG comment.
Tell the republicans to put Rove back in the closet where he belongs - look what he did for Bush!
Additionally, isn't CHANGE the Obama slogan?
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This is a link toa writer who knows Sarah Palin, differently, yet the same. He owns a lodge in Alaska and you follow this to many different places. Information is just, follow it or not.
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please review
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MarkinOxford
I am not questioning the authenticity of the WSJ article. It is unfortunate I am getting "Page unavailable", I would like to read it as you have referred to it.
Was the WSJ article based just on their own recent polling - or an averaging of state polls by various pollsters as at the RCP site ? The RCP site names each poll and gives the polling dates - and the does the averaging. (Great internet-info stuff, as is their daily listing of key articles from both sides of the political aisle. )
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JohnAAA, Mark's link works fine for me. If you still can't get it, let me know, and I'll archive it.
Salaam, etc. ed
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180. At 2:27pm on 11 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
#172 Simon21
We all know the extreme right, like yourself, do not like Obama
I don't know anyone here is 'extreme right'.
Their comments are eminently predictable, except apparently to you.
We all know why as well.
I don't know that either."
The I suggest you look at some of the newslinks.
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This just up, which provides a bit more grist to the mill:
"In the past 12 hours, we now have new polls for seven battleground states. CNN/Time has Obama up in the blue states of Michigan (49%-45%) and New Hampshire (51%-45%), while McCain is up in the red states of Missouri (50%-45%) and Virginia (50%-46%). And Quinnipiac finds Obama ahead in Ohio (49%-44%) and Pennsylvania (48%-45%), and McCain in front in Florida (50%-43%)."
Now factor in the skew against under-35 voters and that looks pretty good, especially in Ohio.
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Simon21
My point is that no-one without executive experience has won since 1960. McCain is a senator, yes, but he also has exec experience from his military days.
(and no, this is not a racist comment as you seem to say about evrything I post)
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McCain's using 'good-old-boy' tactics.
Porking and puking with great swinosity.
But if he wants to 'hog' the limelight, so be it.
Tell us where the money for "The Bridge to Nowhere" went Ms Pallin.
Or better yet Mr. McCain, explain your role in the 'Keating 5'.
What did you know, when did you know it, and why didn't you report it?
And what about your wife's chronic drug problems? If they flare up while you're in the White house, what will you do? Will you hold the DEA off, or turn her in for treatment?
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Have you seen the new Sarah Palin video?
You knew this was coming
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MarkinOxford
I see that RCP is saying that Washington and New Jersey have now moved from "Solid Obama" to "Leaning Obama", North Carolina has moved from "Toss-UP" to "Leaning McCain", Pennsylvania from "Leaning Obama" to "Toss-UP", with Indiana going from "Leaning McCain""Toss-Up"
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The argumens about who has what votes now is only of interest to those who would make their decision based on the opinins of others.
The real issue:
More war or a chance for peace through dialogue?
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181. At 2:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Simon21
I do not dislike Obama. I do not rate him as being equipped for the Presidency. I think he is overblown, over-rated. With feet of clay.
You appear to dismiss the articles I posted as being from extreme right-wing sources."
The WSJ has published articles (in fact usually opinion pieces) so extreme they would not be covered in any serious news source.
It business reporting is OK, but its articles on politics (and Israel) could be written by anyone, they are so predictable.
"If you bothered to read the articles - you will see that several are by DEMOCRATS."
So what? If you knew anything about US politics you would know that party affiliations can mean very, very little.
Je Lieberman for example was a democrat and attended the Democratic House meetings until very recently.
"So your response sounds kneejerk again. Why not refute, if you can, what the various DEMOCRATS are saying about Obama's campaign."
A few disgruntled voices refute? What's to refute? Just wishful thinking and right-wing opinion. Its an age old US republican tactic to dredge up some disgruntled democrat and try to claim this represents the whole party.
That is the problem, there is nothing to debate, like the recent reference to an extremist author who described the US as an Imperial republic (and therefore apparently needing an emperor to become president) - drivel of a high order.
Apaprently this the first US election you have observed.
Try to do so from a variety of sources not extremist ones.
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182. At 2:34pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Simon21
Quit trying to play the racist card, it really is stupid
I agree, but am still waiting for yyou.
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193. At 2:45pm on 11 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
Simon21
My point is that no-one without executive experience has won since 1960. McCain is a senator, yes, but he also has exec experience from his military days."
Since you cannot define "executive experience" your point simply makes no sense.
It is about as valid as saying no one over 70 has ever won the presidency - so no one will.
As has been pointed out the President needs a range of skills and experiences. As we see with the present incumbent intelligence is also vital.
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185, R-S.
Quite right, I should have been much more careful about using either the indefinite article, or a plural, as in;
Solzhenitsyn is one of his favourite authors;
or,
Solzhenitsyn is a favourite author.
It is quite usual for people to like more than one writer, and I'd be quite happy for him to have a collected set of Hemminway as well, with perhaps a selected edition of Donne's poems and sermons for variety.
I might also point out however that the biography is not flawless and possibly not put together by McCain. For instance, he was born an Episcopalian but these days practices as a baptist (rather like Palin being born a Catholic but practicing as a Pentecostal).
One other query that has always interested me: McCain was not born in one of the fifty states of the union, but in a US controlled zone in Panama of US parents. Has there yet been a Supreme Court ruling on the eligibility of territorial citizens to stand for the highest office?
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201, MarkfromOxford:
"rather like Palin being born a Catholic but practicing as a Pentecostal"
I thought she had moved awhile ago to a nondenominational bible church.
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#99 - Conspiracy theories all rely on one basic assumption: Any credible source or information that contradicts the conspiracy theory... must be part of the conspiracy.
The individuals behind the cowardly and hateful acts that were carried out that day have made themselves known, and they continue to take credit and provide support for similar crimes and repulsive acts around the world.
In response to your curiosity about the cause of the buildings collapse: The twin towers were hit aircraft that were 1.5 times heavier than those for which the buildings were designed (the Boeing 757 weighs-in at 116 tonnes; the 707, the largest aircraft in 1974, weighs 72 tonnes). WTC buildings 4, 5, 6 and 7 caught fire when burning debris, ignited by the 10,000 lbs of jet fuel in the aircraft, fell upon them. Building 7 collapsed when, after having burned unabated for over 7 hours, the structural integrity of the building was compromised due to heat stress, and the load-bearing members failed.
...With all due respect to the conspiracy theorists, the idea that this was a controlled detonation has been debunked by independent experts in demolition and structural engineering. Moreover, CBS and other major media outlets have video footage of WTC 7's collapse in its entirety, and the tell-tale signs of demolition - breaking windows, explosive noise - are noticably absent. Furthermore, eyewitness reports from emergency services personnel on scene reference building noises ("groans") indicating that the structure was failing slowly.
Any conspiracy and cover-up would have to involve not dozens, but literally THOUSANDS of people - all of whom would have to be knowlingly complicit in the deception. You be the judge as to whether or not this is likely.
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As an old-school Reagan republican I state without regret or reservation that McShame and his book-burning pal are a disgrace to this country and a sure sign that the Republican party I knew is long dead. This whole lipstick garbage is proof that there is no honor left in the party.
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Simon21
I was not "dredging up" articles. Those were articles by DEMOCRATS - from today's press. Simply taken from RCP's summary list of toda's articles.
Saying everything is from right-wing wingnuts is just like putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you".
If you don't know what executive experience means, that is just too bad. because most people know it. It is likely to bite you.
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#191 Simon21
Don't understand.
You keep saying 'we all know...' various things which I don't know.
Perhaps you might explain who 'we all' are ?
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#195, Candace9839:
She has to be the comedians choice. Think of the great sketch material over the next 4 years!
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193, John
I wouldn't place too much stress on the executive experience of a mid-ranking officer. Unlike his father or grandfather, McCain did not achieve flag rank (and, as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago, mine did so I know the difference); nor would I minimise the administrative and executive skills of a university professor which perhaps correspond to roughly the kind of level McCain achieved in the navy (and again, I know about this because I am one). It seems to me this whole 'executive' argument is a rather desperate attempt to bolster Palin's very slight CV, and ultimately it does no-one any credit to stretch the facts so thin.
One thing Obama really does have is a profound knowledge of constitutional law, and one quality he has exhibited as a real strength is his ability to manage people (he has suffered from neither of the Hillary or McCain implosions with their staff). He is extremely thorough in his preparations for what he does, and he makes a very cool and rational assessment of risks and opportunities. Whether those are qualities you want in a President is for you to decide, but for many people they are very appealing traits.
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#192 MarkfromOxford
You seem to be taking this 'skew against under-35 voters' as a 'given'.
Can you explain the basis of it please ?
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#190 Ed Iglehart
That link did not work first time for me, either. I think there's something iffy about it. I mean the link, not the article which was interesting.
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I find it quite amusing that those of you who live across the pond and NOT in America can sit and quibble about the solution(s) to all of our problems.
Do you not have issues and concerns of your own to deal with?
And furthermore, it does not take a student of politics from another country to come to the realization that the last seven and three quarters years have not been the most idyllic in America.
We are completely aware of this without any help from the peanut gallery.
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Simon21
You assert this is the first US election I have observed.
You really are thrashing around, aren't you.
I recall following the Kennedy election avidly.
Try sticking to the issues
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Talk about thin skin. When the discussion gets down to Limo liberal/peculating poor Democrats, accusing rapacious Republicans of low blows, I think it is time to find new leaders. Lipstick is a non-issue.
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If McCain/Palin are elected as a result of this comment, that says an awful lot about the gullability of a particular section of the US electorate.
Being able to look after several oddly named kids whilst boiling up a pot of Moose Goulash is all very admirable but has nothing to do with running a country.
Palin is being used by the very Republican establishment McCain has the nerve to suggest she will "shake up". She will find herself sidelined if she is elected.
Obama may regret his choice of words but his verbal abilities start to look pretty good when compared to the incumbent.
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MarkinOxford
I don't think Obama will be claiming he got lots of xecutive experience from being a part-time professor. I assume you are joking about that.
Sure, McCain did not reach flag rank. But if he had stayed in the Navy he was surely headed that way. And he had a lot of middle-rank exec experience.
Obama has none that is any way convincing. Palin has quite a bit, maybe not enough, but Obama isn't fighting her is he ? Or maybe he is - which is to fall into the obvious trap yet again.
I don't think Obama claiming he is good on constitutional law cuts it either - though it may appeal to you. People are not electing a judge.
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The world is waiting. The Republican party has always traded on the fears and ignorance of the American people. We will confirm if the American people are as dumb as the rest of the world already know they are. McCain-Palin for change? give me a break!!
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John AA
you think your comments are not predictable?
you are what we all know you are.
these people here like me have heard enough Code speak crap and had enough winks at the intended joke coming from "your sort"
So johnny boy. try telling us of the Black people you do like.
search your soul mate.
Have you now or ever defended Bush.
were you into the war.
what was your position on SA.
let us get to know you and we might use small letters when we call you what you are
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209
There have been several articles of late about the accuracy of the polls and the potential flaws involved, including how they create their samples. The absolutely common theme between them is that the under-35 group tends to be under-represented in the sample. If I wasn't about to dash out the door to meet someone, I'd do a search for you on the subject. Perhaps a search for 'electoral roll sample methods anomalies' might yield something interesting. If the conversation is still on the topic later, I'll try and locate my sources.
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#185 Mark
I like your style, although re: politics I couldn't disagree with you more.
I appreciate someone who has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.
Episcopalian, Baptist... Politicians change religious denominations like film stars change their underwear. It depends on the audience watching, and most are more comfortable with none.
Regarding your last query: The US Constitution requires that the President must be born a US citizen. McCain is by definition a US citizen born abroad, by virtue of his parental citizenship.
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135. At 11:50am on 11 Sep 2008, T1m0thy wrote:
Do I care? Not a lot. I do care about the latest essay in US hypocrisy. When a US company wins a contract outside the US that's competition. When an overseas company wins a contract even with an US partner that's unfair, they change the rules and scrap the contract. The recent behaviour of the US re the air tanker contract is typical. Justin you wonder why we don't like them? They stink, they're greedy arrogant two faced hypocrites and if they get McCain/Palin they deserve it. Only problem with that is we'll have to deal with the consequences when they get it wrong.
HEAR HEAR GIVE THAT MAN A MEDAL
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159 smart timmy
more more.
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David_Cunard (#97), yes, and they do a bad job with baseball as well.
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I'm voting for McCain, yet I didn't find anything wrong with what Obama said. Lipstick on a pig is a common remark, and it was obvious that he was referring to McCain's policies and not to Palin. The McCain camp was clearly wrong to make a big deal out of this. I'm still voting for him, though!
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netcrusher (#99), it seems to me that you love wacko theories. You're on the wrong website.
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#201, MarkFromOxford;
According to; The ABC’s of Immigration: Citizenship Rules for People Born Outside the United States by Greg Siskind
The rule in effect when McCain was born was;
The rules are quite complicated depending on when you were born, and the status of your parents at the time.
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215
I remember reading a McCain profile some while back which argued that he left the Navy because he realised (or was warned) that he was not going to progress further.
I have no proof either way for the validity of this except for the fact that he did leave the Navy rather than follow in the footsteps of his father and grandfather - and he does seem to have used his navy and POW background to give him a profile in politics.
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Dear Britons:
Please don't assume that anyone using "we" in their posts actually represents all Americans / Republicans / Democrats...
I'm an American, and no-one posting on this site speaks for me.
My position on the candidates is well thought-out, well-informed and I'm in the minority who thinks that a previous record is a much better indicator of what you can expect from a candidate than election-year posturing.
...I am not swayed by lipstick-gate-like issues, but I will not vote for Obama.
What I want for America is a President who is experienced, capable, focused, predictable and prepared. Obama possesses only one of these traits - predictability. The American Presidency isn't a job that lends itself to on-the-job training. He may be capable, but hasn't demonstrated that capability while in the Illinois or US Senate, nor does he possess the executive experience I require in a presidential candidate.
Senator Obama posesses is, however, predictable... in that he refuses to take a stand on any issue if doing so would risk alienating any significant voting bloc. he doesn't have any personal identity... his identity changes to suit whatever persona will get him elected.
That's not leadership.
I will be voting for McCain/Palin.
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#211, iglejago :
I agree. I'd rather be talking about a renewal of cold war tactics escalating militarism. US warships in the Black Sea in support of Georgia, resulting in Soviet Backfire Bombers in Venezuela. What's next, missile bases in Cuba?
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marbles , someone put it well the other night.
If we let mc cain win.
If the american people only learn nasty lying cheating deceitful bankers get in.
that only a campaign of crap will work then that is what we will get.
For may we all not be pit bulls most people(for whatever reason) do what they are told.(no matter how crazy).And if they are told (by themselves and their fellow voters) that the school bully that makes a joke at every turn and always at someones expense. that well wait.
If america was to get the impression that the only way to win was to imitate Erronious we would be in the bog.
Just as when journalists all think they have to upstage Fox.
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Poor Obama is really up against it today. Damned for his youthful spell as a community organiser, damned for being a Senator and now damned for being an expert in constitutional law.
Is it coz he is black ?
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Cool one,
Surely an oxymoron, like military intelligence and ecological tourism?;-)
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219. At 3:46pm on 11 Sep 2008, R-Snail wrote:
#185 Mark
I like your style, although re: politics I couldn't disagree with you more.
I appreciate someone who has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.
Episcopalian, Baptist... Politicians change religious denominations like film stars change their underwear. It depends on the audience watching, and most are more comfortable with none.
Regarding your last query: The US Constitution requires that the President must be born a US citizen. McCain is by definition a US citizen born abroad, by virtue of his parental citizenship.
Helix aspersa do you grin a lot?.
US soil?
You know nothing of being a US citizen being born abroad.
I would guess.
It apparently does make a difference he was granted US citizenship because some how america was claiming panama as thiers.
If he had been born in Iraq to a diplomat at a US mission He would probably not be able to run.
As to being odffensive to you .
WHY not.
you are offensive to the human race and most animals.
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shelleyliberto (#150), are you the spokeswoman for "all women in the world"? How did you rise to that exalted position?
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iglejago #211
I find it equally amusing that you are excercising your democratic rights to comment on a web site provided by the BBC. Which is, as all of us on this side of the pond know, an acronym for British Broadcasting Corporation. Therefore if you don't want us poking our noses in I suggest that you use another forum. Otherwise why not observe, take note, you might just learn something.
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jacksforge
I especially like one of my sons-in-law, who is black.
I like Colin Powell - who is prrobably Democrat
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Dear Britons:
I'd be concerned about a PM who thinks that his recent comment about an Obama presidency isn't implicitly endorsing the candidate.
If Mr. Brown really thinks he isn't implicitly endorsing Senator Obama, he's dangerously naiive, and, I would posit, unqualified for the PM post.
If he's lying and really DOES know the he's endorsing a candidate and denying it, then you Brits have your own thinking to do about his character.
...but that's just an American's opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. ;-) I've been jaded by Presidents Nixon, Clinton and (G.W.) Bush!
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JohnAAA, you obviously forced your daughter to marry a black so that this would give you cover. We can see through this. How low can you get!
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217. jacksforge
Well done, Grade A post.
Well done for exposing JohnAAA for what we all know he is. He can use all code and semantics he wants, the traits exhibit themselves in everything this misguided fool writes.
I've never known someone to bombard any blog with such a litany of crappy irrelevant information, most of which is unfounded. Woeful individual.
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235
yea I have an uncle who loves his grandkids .
but he still is a racist.
the kids are black.
he loves them.
but still dislikes blacks.
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239 to add to that you must learn to step gently around all issues, or speak with forked tongue or is it that as long as they think the "White way" is good they are OK.
but if they get together and start talking to each other, it's a conspiracy.
Better watch it at the family gatherings.
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91 Gn R did you hear about the two pitbulls that got a school closed. running around town killing people pets.
Just on the news today.
here not to be mean but it is not all pit bulls that are hated.
it is the AMERICAN PIT BULL.
because as a breed they do not know when to stop.
A collie will ,I mean WILL, nip if not trained right and even then you may never know when they will. big deal.
but a pitbull tends to cling on, the circuit that says RUN YOU ARE HURT seems to have been knocked out.
Which coincidentally is what I think of republicans.
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#231, Ed Iglehart :
"nondenominational bible church."
Surely an oxymoron, like military intelligence and ecological tourism?
----
It's better than "Biblical Reality"...
ND churches usually have trimmed the dogma down to basic beliefs that fit most protestant denominations, and allow a flexibility on certain beliefs like offering both infant baptism and dedication with later informed baptism.
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150. At 12:59pm on 11 Sep 2008, shelleyliberto wrote:
Sarah Palin is a hero to all women in the world and we should be proud that John McCain had the foresight to bring her on the ticket. Barrack Obama's predisposition to slight her because she is a woman is a sign of how he would govern as president. America does not need a man who shows a complete and total lack of respect to the female gender. Shelley Liberto
I think your straw is about to crumble.
try a lighter grip.
I have not met ANY woman who has been impressed by palin , or at least not scared by her.
Shelly is ambiguous male or female?
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#187, DT, thanks for the link. Please post more
about her, all we get are heavily filtered by the
media.
JF, about that tanker contract: McCain was the
one who originally blew the whistle on Boeing
and got it rebid. It's no wonder that Washington
State is heavily influenced towards Obama.
Boeing wants Obama in because they think
that they will be able to just waltz right in and
take the contract, whereas with McCain they
have an uphill battle. Ditto with other defense
contractors.
If you want to learn more, please peruse this
link, I can gladly provide more.
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"Obama may regret his choice of words but his verbal abilities start to look pretty good when compared to the incumbent"
Just about anyone with an elementary school diploma speaks more fluently and coherently than the incumbent!
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#241, JF, so they have little character flaws.
Everybody does. That's why we go to Vegas
to blow off a little steam.
Maybe we need a Vegas for pit bulls.
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John aaa
you wanted to find a dem who would call obama eliteist so you went and found a "de Rothschild"
not the same really really really really rich rothchilds by any chance?
Not the same rothchild that would certainly loose big chunks of change if taxes were altered.?
You keep grinning you --------
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ref #192 and 196
Right now these polls mean nothing.
The first poll that really has meaning will be after the first debate
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Good grief already! For anyone who doesn't know how to interpret some simple symbolism, let me assist:
Pig=The way the Republicans have been handling the issues facing the US for the last eight years
Lipstick=The proposed "changes" that the Republican ticket has said that they bring to the table...ie. per Obama, they are only cosmetic and do not address the fundamental problems at hand
Obama could have easily substituted the word "hat" for the word Lipstick to make his point. His word choice is unfortunate, based on the recent use of the same word by the Rep VP nominee.
But if the American People are silly enough to let that word stop them from looking at the issues and what the candidates are going to do about them, then that is thier own folly. Get over it and get back to the real problems at hand people.
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#235 JohnAAA
Oh John! Think before you type. You're saying that you are not racist because your son-in-law is black. That's a typical cliché that racists come out with when they are put on the spot about their racism.
And we all know that Colin Powell is a Repubican who worked under Reagan (as well as the Bushes). I think his main resume under Reagan was, with Negroponte, in Africa to undermine the South Africa anti-apartheid movement. Not Democrat material me thinks!
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It's odd that the BBC "Americas" section of this website still doesn't have a subsection for the Canadian election. Fortunately, we can follow it on the CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/
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It"s very clear that Obama was intending a joke at Palin"s expense, because that's exactly how the crowd took it. We are asked to believe that Obama is too stupid to make a connection the whole crowd can make ? It was a really dumb and childish thing to do, and illustrates Danny Finkelstein's point in the Times. Obama has been thrown into tizzy by a wobbly opinion poll or two. He's one of life's panickers and he's showing it. Meanwhile Palin, who has had a truckload of ordure poured on her for the last week doesn't seem to have been bothered by it at all. Under pressure, characters are exposed, and Obama is showing up as a mouse. A man who panics at a couple of bad polls v a man who was a PoW for five years taking daily beatings and who still refused to jump the queue to go home. Mmm - that's a hard one.
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#217 jacksforge
I apologise because I know this was not for me but I feel the need...
Yes
Not sure what 'into' means but if you mean did I agree with the Iraq War, Yes
Do you mean South Africa ?
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bill tyrone.
"I also add a comment on US military operations. On Iraq, beware. Much political hype and self agrandishment over the surge and carefully timed announcements on troop reductions. Do not be surprised if this virtual bubble is not pricked with a seriously loud bang over the next few weeks and major political ramifications and fallout. "
I'd agree , when to you thnk bush will cause that bang?
Marcus I for a rare time would agree that buildings getting hot causes problems with metals.
in the blue brittle range it is next to useless.
And that is a lot cooler than the red that people often think metal would have to be to be structurally weak.
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But those explosions do look suspicious.
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46. At 4:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:
#241, JF, so they have little character flaws.
Everybody does. That's why we go to Vegas
to blow off a little steam.
Maybe we need a Vegas for pit bulls.
true but the problem to me is all these gambling addicted (anti pot) oldies throwing money away that they would not have if a true socialist:) like me was coming up with new taxes.
In a city that should have it's water cut off.
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#238 ezekielthemack
I don't know he is whatever you know he is. Why do you keep including me ?
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#232 jack
You guess wrong.
And you sir, are disagreeable.
Feel free to rail in your ignorance as to how offensive you find me. I would rather put lipstick on a pig as waste my time continuing a debate with ilk such as you.
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#250 dceilar
I don't know that, please don't say I do.
Can you show that is true ?
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#255 Jacksforge
Just thought I'd send you thins link it's from BBC science/nature
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7607473.stm
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247 jacksforge
I did not even notice that the article was by someone clled Rothschild. I looked at the list of today's articles at the RCP site, picked the HEADLINES that seemed to relate to the campaign. I read the article, didn't even notice the name.
Do you have a problem with somone called Rothschild ?
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Senator Joe Lieberman was the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate on the ticket with Al Gore.
He crossed party lines at the RNC to endorse John McCain.
His speech will cost him the Chair of his Senate committee. Why did a lifetime Democrat shun Obama? Lack of experience and accomplishments, perhaps?
Have any Republicans jumped ship and endorsed Obama?
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250 dceilar
You want to play the racist card too ?
I say I am not racist because I am not - and it is pathetic of certain people here to keep playing the race card. I was asked directly to name someone black who I like, Iinstantly named my son-in-law. I could add that I like his black friends too.
Colin Powell was being talked about as a candidate who could run for either ticket. Was being mentioned as a running mate for Obama at one point.If he is still Republican, he is extremely detached about it. He is certainly not die-hard Republican - if he was he would be joining in the fight.
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#244, I hope Boeing does get the tanker contract. Give McCain credit for exposing the misconduct in the original sweetheart lease deal, but I am not convinced the European tanker (with Northrop-Grumman partners) isn't a sweetheart deal also.
Boeing built more than 700 KC-135s (based on the 707), most of which are still in service. They have already delivered KC-67s (based on the 767). They have a track record of producing reliable and durable tankers, and a production line in place. As far as I am concerned, bidding this contract out to a European company doesn't make any sense, either economic or military.
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The past few days have convinced me that the republican party, Mccain and Palin (fox news) have no qualms about using sophistry as a political tool.
In doing so they degrade themselves and the democratic process. it shows what little regard they hold for the american people that they want to represent. Power at all cost.
Also, for a democracy to succeed, states need an unbiased media. This may never be totally achieved, however what I have seen of Fox news over the past few days, they are a disgrace to a democracy, journalism and an insult to free minded thinking people. Freedom of speech yes, but this is something different all together.
For those who do not want to vote for Obama because of reasons such as pigs and lipstick, and i really have not seen argument against him with much more weight than that, the alternative is gun-ho politics, religious zealotry, rob the middle class blind while we talk about lipstick, wars, them us, win wars at all cost cos we are the USA.
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#256, jf, I do believe that you are sounding like
a Puritan!
I'll try not to look like a turkey when I am in
your neighborhood.
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jacksforge
If by SA you mean South Africa - I was strongly anti-apartheid. When I visited SA a few years before Mandela was released I got into an argument in a jazz restaurant because they objected to me talking to the black musicians - I was furious.
And on Rhodesia, I proposed various measures to bring down the Smith regime when I was a civil servant. I believe one of them helped bring the white population supporting Smith to their senses. It was to set in hand contingency plans to evacuate all 250,000 of them from Salisbury and Bulawayo airports, with British forces running a cordon around the airfields. The purpose was psychological - it was a strong way of telling them that they had reached the end of the line.
And clowns like you try to call a racist ?
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If the rest of world were to vote for the Americans today.. Obama will be the president! Palin or no Palin, lipstick or no lipstick, pig or no pig. We all know that the present republican administration sucks!!! This is the truth!!! Bitter but we have to take it as it is!!! So I don't see any reason to give them another chance!!! Take an example from the financial sector a manger fails.. he resigns immediately or sacked.. We should apply the same theory in POLITICS!!!
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#249, JeezLouis :
I've also heard, "You can't teach a pig to sing, you waste your time and annoy the pig."
Enjoy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 249 Jeez - brings the word "hat" into the debate.
Which is what I have been wondering all along about the McCain team's manufactured outrage about Obama's lipstick on a pig comments.
It's a case of : if the hat fits, wear it.
And the fact that folks immediately saw the remark as a reference to La Palin, shows that the hat certainly do fit.
MCain's team might have been better to ignore the remark rather than to seize upon it and engrave this image onto peoples' minds.
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266 your same G n R I have no gun.
Seriously though . the huge amount spent on gambling has meant that there is way less of the pass it on to the next generation.
the huge boom in houses in the area has led to huge problems in houses being empty.
there is nothing good that can be said of a city in the desert that has golf courses throwing water out like it were free.
Unsustainable follies ,true architectural follies filled with fools.
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# 267
John AAA - calm down, dear - its only a blog.
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Rsnail, Have any Republicans jumped ship and endorsed Obama? Too many to mention
;-)
ed
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#264, Gary, I'm not an expert on the tanker contract,
but it does seem that McCain has made an enemy
out of Boeing by exposing problems with the
original lease deal. So, now I understand that he
is taking money from EADS to fund his campaign.
With Boeing funding his opponents, I guess he
had to. Perhaps this is how a republic is supposed
to work, but somehow I doubt that Plato would
have approved.
We can expect this tanker deal to veer back and
forth with a lot of drama until the planes are
actually delivered.
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262. At 5:21pm on 11 Sep 2008, R-Snail wrote:
Senator Joe Lieberman was the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate on the ticket with Al Gore.
He crossed party lines at the RNC to endorse John McCain.
His speech will cost him the Chair of his Senate committee. Why did a lifetime Democrat shun Obama? Lack of experience and accomplishments, perhaps?
Have any Republicans jumped ship and endorsed Obama?
Because he is a zionist who wants to see a war with IRAN as soon as possible.
YoU are as thick as I thought
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JF, you're not just grumpy, you've completely lost it. Well, not quite. I agree with you completely about Vegas.
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#272, jf, there you go again, being rational.
Irrational exuberance is what America is all about,
otherwise it wouldn't be any fun at all.
Besides, if certain substances were legal there,
I'm sure that you would wind up "losing your
wages" there like most other people.
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141, MarcusAureliusII:??"It was Europe which blew up its cultural bridge, or what was left of it to the Americans. It was Schroeder and Chirac who exploited and ignited anti-American feelings throughout Europe.
....Why else whould Merckel, Brown, and Sarko have paid a visit to President Bush, our lame duck President last year to lick the man's boots?"
Just when you started to make sense, this...
You conveniently forgot to mention a tiny detail, the Iraq war.
Schroeder and Chirac, probably the most outspoken and influential amongst other nation's leaders taking the same position, refused to oblige to the US governement's DEMANDS to participate in the war.
Bush Jr. and his cronies declared a 'coalition of the willing', those 'with us' - vs. those against us - black and white, no room for choice or talk.
Now remember that, even back then, there has been no conclusive evidence of WMDs; later accusations of links to al-quaeda proved equally phony.
We all finally settled on the removal of an evil dictator as an acceptable excuse....
Anyways, what do you expect the leader of a nation to do; there is this dude, not the brightest bulb but president of the US, ORDERING you to join a war, which isn't only against international law, opposed by the UN and the majority of countries, but also only based on - what ?
This fellow wants you to send your young men to die for his cause, spend tons of money, make a fool of yourself and your country, and won't even say 'please' .
His myrmidons treat you like an inobedient child, threaten and belittle you, and kept doing so during all of B's firts term.
But of course, it was Europe blowing that cultural bridge, smugly munching away on freedom fries.
In his second term, B. changed the tone of US foreign policy, and some personnel changes have been made; only then has a constructive dialogue been resumed - no boot licking involved.
_______
#156, MagicKirin:
"A question for all those enthusiastic about Obama's speech in Germany, especially those from Europe.??Did you listen to the whole speech, especially the part of Europe having to contribute more?"
There have been two main things discussed in German press after Obama's visit: his popularity in Germany, and that he pointed out there'll be no free lunch for Euros under his presidency.
We'll see about the latter, but we heard him loud and clear ;) .
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jf (#270), McCain is a "natural born" US citizen because both of his parents were US citizens. The status of the Panama Canal Zone doesn't enter into it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In the states we have all quietly done our own in depth research about both candidates.
What we have found is that although Obama is indeed eloquent, he has had a close relationships with our very own home grown terrorist by the name of Bill Ayers. Dear old Bill and his friends,
The Weathermen, planned to carry out attacks on federal buildings such as the White House.
These facts assure many of us that Obama does does not have sound judgement. Are you also aware of his close association with Reverend Wright? The reverend is indeed hateful and has advised Obama for these past twenty years!
While both candidates have their issues, it is very apparent that Obama has many more deficiencies than McCain. There seems to be many comments alluding to the stupidity of Americans and I think many of you should pause to look at your very own hateful comments about us. Is this indicative of all people in England? We can no longer disagree civilly? We are a democracy here in America and you can have your say, but please have some manners. Please also remember that no one reaches into their pockets for others in need worldwide as much as we Americans.
We have died for many other countries when we did not have to. If we were attacked in America, who will come save us? Not one in the lot of you. I'd say our country has already proven we will give all and receive nothing in return. Keep spewing your hateful comments
and please continue to bash us. You just simply do it so easily. Well done!
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260. At 5:18pm on 11 Sep 2008, T1m0thy
Thank you that was interesting.
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Fritz_Kraut, don't bother arguing with MAII,
you're just stimulating his endorphin production.
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280. At 6:10pm on 11 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
jf (#270), McCain is a "natural born" US citizen because both of his parents were US citizens. The status of the Panama Canal Zone doesn't enter into it.
Sorry Gary but you are wrong.
many many people are born to american parents the fact that panama was a territory was essential in his claim.
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Who do you work for Justin?
It appears right now that it's the Republicans.
Truth always matters. Spin doesn't. Period.
Republicans protect the interests of the rich and powerful against the poor (talk about class warfare). It's all about massive upward wealth redistribution.
They do this by organizing ordinary people's fear and desire for revenge.
We keep attacking the wrong people. You think a newspaper or a TV station is ruining your life? Just look around you.
Stop voting against your interests and needs.
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278. At 6:02pm on 11 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:
#272, jf, there you go again, being rational.
Irrational exuberance is what America is all about,
otherwise it wouldn't be any fun at all.
Besides, if certain substances were legal there,
I'm sure that you would wind up "losing your
wages" there like most other people.
G n R
Sorry back to just bashing in a while
No I earn from smithing , no green thumb on me.
If said (or not) substances were legal I would just be able to get more jobs as a welder where the only test you have to pass is one where you pass into a bottle.:)
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seanspa. say something you dweeb
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Alaskan Women Against You-know-who AWAY!
;-)
ed
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Come on!
Are you the follower and belief of no questions ask? With the huge target that Barack Hussein Obama drawing out for you and he could take you to the time of 1930 in Gemany? Look at what he had done in 8 yrs of IL senators, 20 yrs under his mentor Rev. Wright, starting out his political career with Eyers, his muslim faith (interview on ABC 9/708), and much more that you don't know. Unless you close your eyes and bfollow to the sea of uncertain then I should pray God to exclude me in your crowd.
Europe want him so that they can pursuate the guy has no guts to vote for any importance issue in Springfield IL (most voted present) the guy baits people with change but he changes nothing himself. He told you he is catholic but deep down inside he is still muslim (as he said). Yes, I don't care what his religion is but I care a lier to be a president. I care a lier take this country to the black hole.
Between Barack Hussein Obama and Hillary, I had chose Hillary because I had seed of her, knowing somewhat about her that she is not totally, totally empty promises and shine her promises to the black hole as Barack Hussein Obama.
Between Barack Hussein Obam and McCain, I would choose Mc.Cain because the guy who did so many noise against his party and he did paid dearly his life to this country. I see that in him whatever his plans are for this country I can believe (in his past) he is not take this country to the black hole.
Barack Hussein Obama gives you guys a bigger than life promises to baits you (as he mentioned in the pig-lipstick) you guys are his fishes to play with.
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victoriausa (#282), who are "we all"? And why are you calling the English "hateful"? Several of the nastiest people who post here appear to be US citizens, and there are certainly many Brits who are civil in their written discourse.
It appears that you are merely trying to associate your anti-Obama views with the best-behaved posters, but anyone who has been following this discussion for awhile knows that there is no such correlation.
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Faux News defends Obama!
Might it have to do with ratings and revenue? Perish the thought!;-)
ed
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MarkinOxford
Quite correctly you have mentioned the youth vote. Obama had it largely in the bag.
But Palin may chip away at that dominance ?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122109607230421889.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
For anyone wanting to watch Palin's arrival home in Alaska - here's a 15-minute clip. Watch how she plays the crowd - she ain't no dummy :
http://tinyurl.com/6zgjas
Factcheck guy swipes aside a bunch of the attacks on Palin :
http://tinyurl.com/5m2vpc
"Dem fret about Obama" :
http://tinyurl.com/6ppfj7
Patrician intolerance to Palin's faith :
http://tinyurl.com/64mo72
And on 9/11, a very sad survey - half the world doesn't believe Al Qaeda was responsible :
http://tinyurl.com/5q34sv
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#289,Ed, this Wooten guy sounds like a creep,
especially since according to the report you posted,
it was established by the Alaska Highway Patrol
that he drank on duty.
If the Democrats are smart, they'll back off on this,
or Palin will pull and Oliver North on them.
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jack (#285), you are talking off the top of your head and you don't know what you are talking about. There is no court decision on McCain's status. There was one for Barry Goldwater, who was born in Arizon when it was a territory.
The rules for children of US citizens can be found in the following linked document. Although there have been some recent changes to these rules, it has always been the case that children born to US citizens who have resided in the United States are also citizens.
http://www.uscitizenship.info/citizenship-lib-children.htm
If you insist that there is some court decision pertaining to McCain's elegibility being dependent on the territorial status of Panama, can you provide a link to documentation?
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Victoria # 282 cannot go unchallenged.
We have done William Ayers to death on this blog. He has taken up so much blogspace that he is declared a dead parrot here on Justinland.
Also - on the subject of having manners.
Most of us who blog in Justinland have taken the trouble to roam through a few other sites. JF may go off on one occasionally but this site indulges in discussion - admittedly from two sides of a heated argument and with a few snarky swipes to keep one's end up.
But bad manners ! Eat your words Victoria and submit yourself to the moderators for judgement.
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An interesting analysis of lying
Enjoy
ed
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#267 JohnAAA "The purpose was psychological - it was a strong way of telling them that they had reached the end of the line." But Southern Rhodesia declared independence all the same, so the psychology was somewhat unsuccessful. Incidentally, that was in 1965, which makes you even older than we had supposed. In hindsight, would it not have been better to recognise the new nation, it couldn't have become any worse that it is now.
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victoriausa
I too am saddened by the extent of sheer blind antiAmericanism in Britain And it started long before Bush.
But most people would jump at the chance to live and work in the US.
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#264 Gary_A_Hill
Gary I started this hare running, see below
"Do I care? Not a lot. I do care about the latest essay in US hypocrisy. When a US company wins a contract outside the US that's competition. When an overseas company wins a contract even with an US partner that's unfair, they change the rules and scrap the contract. The recent behaviour of the US re the air tanker contract is typical. Justin you wonder why we don't like them? They stink, they're greedy arrogant two faced hypocrites and if they get McCain/Palin they deserve it. Only problem with that is we'll have to deal with the consequences when they get it wrong.
I'm glad to see that you totally endorse my comments about US hypocrisy. Make your mind up do you want free markets and competition or protectionism? What we in Europe object to is being lectured about free market competition while losing contracts to Washington politics. Remember though that Europe is now a bigger market than the US.
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G&R,
I agree he sounds like a creep, but creeps have rights too, It seems plain to me that Ms Palin ain't above a bit of abuse of power, and tyhat's not a recommendation for the job she's applying for.
Still a ways to go before November. I'm taking the opportunity to play the fantasy betting shops and sell McCain short.
;-)
ed
No hyperventilation here!
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David_Cunard
It was not in 1965. It was long after UDI, when the Smith regime felt stuck in.
These matters always remain sub rosa, but my understanding is that it was deployed later on. Certainly the contingency plan was prepared.
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#282 victoriausa
If ever there is a comment more likely to make the average Brits blood boil I don't know it. Victoria you did not selflessly give your lives to save others. You have joined in several wars to protect yourselves and your interests you don't do it out of altruism. Your entry into WW2 was forced by the Japanese attacking you and the Germans declaring war on you. You didn't have a choice and you didn't do it to save us Brits, to liberate the French or save the Jews. You did it to save yourselves.
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#282. victoriausa "Please also remember that no one reaches into their pockets for others in need worldwide as much as we Americans." Although the aggregate sum may be large, the amount individual Americans 'reach into their pockets' is nowhere as great as Luxembourg, which donates $519.75 per capita. Britons ("England") donate $177.66 and Americans $25.31. Casualties in wars are just as many as from the US, so perhaps in future you would care to check some of the statistics before writing.
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#299 JohnAAA "most people would jump at the chance to live and work in the US." Then why don't you join us in the home of the brave ad land of the free? After five years, you could even get to vote!
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#299 JohnAAA
Oh dear oh dear.
We are not anti American just anti hypocrisy.
And as for jumping at the chance to live and work in the US are you kidding? Live in a country with some of the worst health care in the developed world, which can't even do a half decent job of rescuing it's citizens and restoring one of it's major cities, and has to arm it's teachers in the class room.
I don't think so.
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#282 Victoria
I caution you to pick and choose who you try and debate in this crowd. Do not waste your time trying to have a battle of wits with jf. You are engaging the witless.
Opinions and facts intermingle only as long as they concur in his reprobate mind.
Gary you are 100% correct...
Strange, but once I valued my British education, and now I'm so glad I had the sense and ability to leave for a place where free thought is encouraged rather than stifled.
England is such a lovely place... It's a shame but the ManU yob mentality seems to have permeated every aspect of their culture. Civil discourse is derided and shouted down with invectives and expletives.
Given my opinions, you may well ask, why I'm on this BBC site myself... unfortunately I'm in a nearby timezone, and thought to look here for some intelligent conversation... it can be found here, albeit in limited quantities.
Just think, if we elect Obama, and he continues our educational system's demise, this could be us in a generation or so... how quickly culture evaporates.
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
Winston Churchill
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#80
To Lady Astor, I believe. In her own house.
=0)
Sam
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Mark
You mentioned Quinnipiac putting Obama 4 points ahed in Ohio.
This poll puts McCain 4 points ahead in Ohio:
http://tinyurl.com/5rp94r
and the RCP average of recent polls - including both the above - is a 1,8% lead for McCain.
Intrade is also favouring McCain for Ohio, I think.
It is all to play for - but Ohio is certainly not looking in the bag for Obama.
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#103
My dear fellow,
The obviously don't know the meaning of the word Dog when applied to a lady. Both are nasty.
Sam
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what in the world! Of all the people, i found myself agreeing with Bill "spinner" O'Reilly last night. He said the way in which McCain should have gone about this was to say, I know Obama didn't mean anything by it and lets move on. !!!!! Is O'righty getting soft for the Dem Messiah or is McCain so bad that even Fox News is questioning his methods?
By the way, i was watching fox news for approximately three mins. don't judge me. i do it for a laugh.
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Victoria
1. There is more to the UK than "England". Queen Victoria would have put you straight on that.
2. Rev Wright is not "hateful". Only someone hateful who hasn't bothered to listen to more than a Faux News soundbyte of his sermons would call him anything but a fine man.
I am an American-born proud resident of Scotland. (which is not part of England)
Peace and tolerance
ed
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# 299 - John (calm down dear) AAA
That's rubbish and you should know it. Beddy time, perhaps.
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#92
Anus,
So in your world the Pres just sits around doing nothing? Wondering what Congress is going to do to him next?
Or could it be that the executive branch executes policy?
Sad Sam
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Tim0thy (#300), I have not lectured anyone about "free market competition" in military procurement, so if anyone is hypocritical, it is not I. I think that, for the most part, US military equipment should be provided by US companies, when we have the capability. There are certainly cases where a foreign supplier offers something we don't have. I would cite the British Harrier jet, used by the US Marine Corps, as a fine example.
In any case, it is not at all clear that the tanker contract was let under "free market competition," which is why it was overturned. And it is well established that Airbus has been heavily subsidized by UK and France.
No point in getting one's dander up about it, in my opinion. The British are our strongest and friendliest ally, and I hope it stays that way.
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#259 chill0
It's not that common knowledge to be honest. But during the mid to late eighties he was head of the National Security Council with Negroponte as his Deputy Dawg. They got round Congress (which imposed sanctions) by arguing that the ANC were a sinister and dangerous terrorist group, and moreover, based many of their activities in southern Africa. He did such a good job he got promoted under Bush I.
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Ed, in #301, are you saying that Wooten should have the right to drink on duty? What would a legitimate firing offense be for a cop? I agree that Palin's relationship with Wooten raises questions about her motives, but it does not necessarily mean that she acted out of malice. It might just be that she knows the guy and knows that he shouldn't be a trooper.
Anyway, she has claimed that the sacking of the top cop had nothing to do with Wooten. Maybe, maybe not. I can understand why democrats want her to be found quilty in inappropriate behaviour, and I can understand why republicans do not. As a mere dweeb, and a non-voting one at that, I am happy to wait and see what the offical inquiry finds.
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#280,#295. Gary_A_Hill. Ref Mr McCain's place of birth, it was not considered quite so simple as you would have it. The New York Times discussed it here and the concern was the subject of a Senatorial Resolution, which can be found here. Tthat he was born in an American military facility was the deciding factor.
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Tim0thy (#303), we are in complete agreement on this!
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David_Cunard
If I was younger, I would live and work in the US happily. But there are very severe restrictions anyway on getting green cards.
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#282
Victoria
Since it is 9/11 today it may be fitting to remember that in the aftermath of that terrible day the British Special Air Service and Australian equivalent, amongst others though few have involvement documented like these Regiments, were amongst the first men on the ground in Afghanistan. There are still countries who stand shoulder to shoulder with us, though sadly our policies over the last few years have reduced that number.
Some of those men and women gave their lives for us. You should be ashamed.
Sad Sam
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#173
John, that is the funniest thing I ever heard. The WSJ is incredibly right wing in it's editorials. Wonder why, who owns it again?
Us lefties read the New York Times.
Literary Sam
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#135
Now Timmy,
Do you need a timeout? You can't judge an entire nation by the current administration. Otherwise everyone would think Britain is populated by dull, drab, boring somber men. And it really isn't. At least not the fun bits.
Sam
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304 David_Cunard
Your figures on charity giving look highly suspect. Any figures I have ever seen suggest that through private giving and especially through churches, Americans are extremey generous to the rest of the world. And that is of course omitting the huge subvention the US makes to UN work.
In my own circle of American friends, I can think of a husband-and-wife team, both lawyers, who feel it is their duty to work in villages in the Andes in Peru each year, helping to represent local communities in their fights against officialdom. And each time they go they organise several container loads of stuff to take out. I don't know anyone in the UK who gives so selflessly.
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ref #292
If you listened with an open mind you would know unlike the Moonbat network with Obermann Fox News is the most balanced cable new outlet.
So say Hillary Clinton and Lanny Davis
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311 - Hazbutler
Interesting comments.
Rupert-the-almighty reckoned that Obama would sell more newspapers/gain more viewers so he told his guys to go easy on him.
Does Rupert-the-almighty now think that Sarah Palin might sell even more newspapers/gain viewers. He has not yet spoken but, going on past history, she is right up Rupert's street. A religious rightwinger who gives no truck to environmental concerns, sexy to boot, and happy to drill, drill, drill - which is a code word for comercial expansion at all costs.
It is probable that she was delivered into Rupert's lap by a cynical GOP just to get him off his support for Obama.
Once again, we shall see - but whatever happens it won't be pretty.
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Palin is Bush with lipstick
pigs would be offended by the comparison
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David_Cunard
Michigan remains very close so far - a 1 point average leaf for Obamain the RCP poll averages.
This article from TNR (Democrat-supporting) asks "Why can't Obama put Michigan away ?"
http://tinyurl.com/6z2hyl
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MarkinOxford
Sorry - the previous post on Michigam polls should have been addressed to you.
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Ed - and Ed fans
Look at FactCheck org. I don't have the expertise to link it up but it is very straight talking.
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Alaskan Women Against You-know-who AWAY!
(right link this time) ;-((
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304. David_Cunard wrote:
#282. victoriausa "Please also remember that no one reaches into their pockets for others in need worldwide as much as we Americans."
"Although the aggregate sum may be large, the amount individual Americans 'reach into their pockets' is nowhere as great as Luxembourg, which donates $519.75 per capita. Britons ("England") donate $177.66 and Americans $25.31. Casualties in wars are just as many as from the US, so perhaps in future you would care to check some of the statistics before writing."
*************************
A few years ago, I recall seeing a list of the world's top 10 providers of foreign aid. Number one? The US at about $13 billion. The UK gave about 1/3 of that. Don't recall seeing Luxembourg on that list. ;-)
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#304 David_Cunard
Thanks David and also I would like to point out to Victoria that about one third of all US aid goes to Israel, who promptly spend it with US armaments companies to buy weapons in order that they can attack their Arab neighbours. Witness the cluster bombing of the Lebanon in the last little effort. Out of interest I given you a quote from a piece of research into US aid to Israel.
"Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen."
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I return to the subject of the Rupert Murdoch endorsement. There are very strong women in his life - his wife Wendy and daughter Elizabeth, both of whom favour privacy in private life and they may well be appalled by a mother who goes back to the office with a 3-day old Down's Syndrome baby in a baby carrier.
I realise that discussion of all this is frowned upon - but this does go against the grain and astonishes/worries all the mothers I have spoken with.
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Ed (#312), Reverend Wright may not, in fairness, be "hateful" to an objective, disinterested person. Nevertheless, it is how he is perceived by others that matters. A lot of Americans find him to be thoroughly unlikeable, to various degrees. If Obama manages to lose, I believe a large part of the reason will be due to him.
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Charitable giving in the USA is more than what the government gives as per capita foreign aid, and more than what is measured as per capita private donations. The aid given by any nations charities is often difficult to quantify in monetary terms. There are, for example, charities that help poor villages with building infrastructure for clean water, sewage, and sustainable farming including aquaculture. While the amount of time and money may be small per project, the impact is enormous. In many areas of the world, the nationality of the charity is a liability and endangers the lives of the volunteers and employees.
Here is an older (2003) article that discusses some of the difficulty in drawing straight comparisons. Inside the numbers on U.S. foreign aid.
I think also, that incident like with Somalia, where there was such intense press in the US calling for aid for starving Somali's then this results in the horror of BHD. The concern and donations quickly dried up.
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# 317 ~ sean
The trouble is that she is the one who wrote a glowing reference for Wooten in the first place. Check it out.
Admittedly that was before Wooten had fallen out with the sister but there truly does seem to be some evidence that a family feud comes before balanced judgement.
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317. seanspa:
"What would a legitimate firing offense be for a cop? "
Wooten is a problem. He'd be considered a criminal -- if he weren't a trooper.
It's a divorce case, so it's uglier than usual, no doubt. But telling your father-in-law that he'll "eat a *** bullet" is an ugly threat from someone carrying a firearm and who is a member of law enforcement.
It was surprising to me how many articles mentioned her intervening to get him fired but didn't mention why she wanted him fired.
Soon we'll all learn exactly what a trooper has to do in Alaska to get a 5-day suspension.
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#309, JohnAAA :
Polls are frequently incorrect. For the real scoop, check out intrade.com.
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Karl Rove misdirection and distortion brilliantly done.
"Putting lipstick on a pig and its still a pig" refers to dressing McCain's agenda up as "change" doesn't actually alter it. It is still the republican agenda.
If anything the reference was to Palin as the lipstick and McCain as the pig.
Although Rove as the pig fits best.
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To Gary_A_Hill, David_Cunard, and all of you good night. It's getting late here in France. 'Lipstick on a pig'. Oh I remember, Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy very fetching. Good night to you all and I hope that by this exchange of views we have all benefited.
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282. At11 Sep 2008, victoriausa
Well done! I am not going to add to your piece, but to warn of the vitrol you will receive.
Just as during the Democrat Convention, we stayed quiet and our canidate offered a very civil congratulation to Senator Obama for his nomination.
Even the protesters stayed civil and at a distance, not once interupting thier convention or attacking elderly delegates. You will see the 'un'civil discourse first hand.
Needing to hear more thier own words than those of reason, examples abound, even here. Compromise to left is immpossible, it is thier way, or they attack you.
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David (#318), I am aware of the piece in The New York Times by Liptak. It focuses on legislation which was passed to cover people born in the Canal Zone who were not otherwise covered by the citizenship rules. Whether these laws pertaining to the Canal Zone existed or not, John McCain was a U. S. citizen at birth because both of his parents were U. S. citizens who had lived in the United States.
As for the Senate resolution, this was merely a response to the nonsense being bandied about by kooks who were trying to make an issue where none exists. It does not constitute a legal decision on the basis for McCain's citizenship.
The matter has never been fully adjudicated, and probably won't be. If it were, there is no question that it would be found that his citizenship at birth does not depend on any interpretation of the sections of the code pertaining to the Panama Canal Zone, or to the military status of his father.
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#312, Ed Iglehart :
I would concur on Rev. Wright. His views are heretical to mainstream protestantism, but not hateful. He exhorts his congregation to achieve and do good works for the community. He has had a positive influence on his community. Just as with many other fire and brimstone preachers, only someone who is already hate filled would misconstrue his words for a call to violent action.
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didn't Cheney use the same phrase several years ago ...?
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312. At 7:30pm on 11 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart
Disagree with you on this one Ed, watched the whole thing, and he still is no one I would reccommend or listen to a second time.
His chickens, have fled the coop.
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Here's a link to a discussion of the question of the basis for McCain's citizenship for the benefit of anyone who desires a more comprehensive treatment of the subject than can be found on one op-ed piece in The New York Times:
http://genealogy.about.com/b/2008/08/30/john-mccains-citizenship-status.htm
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What we guys want in a VP.
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#324. JohnAAA wrote: "Your figures on charity giving look highly suspect." They were not "charity giving" but the amounts donated as economic aid by each of the governments on behalf of their citizens. I don't think there are any reliable statistics about how much any given country donates to charities, whether domestic or foreign.
Your American friends are very generous with their time and money, but perhaps you might remind them of the adage 'charity begins at home' since, despite its wealth, their own country has many deserving causes.
SamTyler1969 - You post some interesting opinions, but addressing a poster as "Anus" and another as "My dear fellow" does not become you. I understand the temptation - but resist!
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Another Republican switcher (Chafee):
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/09/chafee_palin_a.html
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All corporate run media is biased one way or another.
http://www.fair.org/index.php
Even non-corporate media can be biased by funding sources, organizational culture and by the writers and editors personal views.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ed, you tuber!! I'm saying potatoe.(not) Did you watch that piece on Palin or just link to it?
I can say that 'if' there is foul play, throw her away,.. heck historically the bounce will fail. That said though, hearsay and inuendo were key players of assumed quilt in that ABC piece, totally not like them.
Kudos man on most, no insult meant, bur you have to have a 'tuber' interest,... come on, share.
USA USA USA
___________*___________
The Chrysler guy for President
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I realise that #48 already mentioned the "Sarah Palin Gender Card" clip from the Daily Show so my earlier post was obviously redundant.
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I wish Mary Whitehouse would go off duty,,
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334 wanderingangus
Don't go getting paranoid about Rupert Murdoch. His newspapers certainly helped the winning sides in a couple of UK elections, but he is very pragmatic - and normally lets his editors have a reasonably free hand. He won't be pushing either side with the WSJ too strongly. His interest is in selling copies of the WSJ - not forcing opinions down people's throats like the NYT seems to do.
Yes Fox is right-wing (but with a lot of balance, not rapid like eg MSNBC). He saw a big gap n the news market, with cable news like CNN being very left-leaning. He has made a lot of money filling that gap He he is a very astute guy, fond of taking truly huge risks. He has bet the farm several times in building News Corporation. I recommend reading the biography by William Shawcross, critical but fair and well-researched.
Here in the UK the BBC had the chance of monopolising satellite television. They ducked it - they could not get their act together. I saw it first hand.
The BBC and the rest of the UK TV industry then tried to block Murdoch from satellite TV. I and others dealing with them at the time tried to advise them that they should include Murdoch in their group. They continued to block him - and set up their own venture based on the wrong satellite design and with a limited number of channels. He chose to run his satellites under a Luxembourg licence but with pan-European coverage, the beam shaped to give maximum power to UK antennae. He made mincemeat of the competition - they folded very quickly at a huge loss. he flew the right satellite design, enabling very small antennae (like 18 inches) and had wider programming, more channels.
Here in the UK, his Sky News is a better news operation than the BBC on a much lower budget, Gets good audiences - and helps to offset the very liberal bias of the BBC. Sky TV was the world's first major satellite TV operation, he went on to repeat the formula in Asia (I and others proposed the second-hand US satellite he used ther as a cheap start), and of course he now dominates satellite service in the US as well as Australasia and other places.
He hires first-rate people - but has a long track record of big gambles that have worked out.
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#350, Gary_A_Hill :
Telling that "Political Intelligence" posts a story where a former Republican's (no surprise being that he supported none of their positions) criticism is limited to "cocky wacko". The Republican's in Rhode Island did not support his re-election, and shortly thereafter he quit the party and backed Barrak Obama. It goes to show that you can't vote like a Democrat, and call yourself a Republican. The voters will go for the real thing.
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#332. AndreainNY Apparently reading is not one of your perfected skills - I had written that "Although the aggregate sum may be large, the amount individual Americans 'reach into their pockets' is nowhere as great as Luxembourg . . ."
The figures I provided were those per capita, not the combined amount.
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303 - T1m0thy (re: 282 victoriausa)
Tim, you wrote:
"...[the US] entry into WW2 was forced by the Japanese attacking you and the Germans declaring war on you. You didn't have a choice and you didn't do it to save us Brits, to liberate the French or save the Jews. You did it to save yourselves."
Nothing could be further from the truth. Did you ever crack open a history book at University?
Neither the Germans nor the Japanese posed any direct threat to the United States. Firstly: A nation of 30 million (Japan in 1941) cannot occupy a nation of 130 million (USA in 1941), and would have had to secure a 6,000-miles logistics tail at a time when they were struggling securing supplies at all. Secondly: Germany, having invaded the Soviet Union six months before declaring war on the USA, was already finding their manpower and equipment resources strained by trying to conquer England while simultaneously trying to drive to Moscow. There was no way that either of these countries, aside from the single attack on our bases at Pearl Harbor, posed any near-term invasion threat to the United States, and it is unlikely that they ever would have.
...Such was the case in December 1941..
Prior to December 7th of that year, American popular opinion was against the US entering the war. We engaged Japan and Germany only AFTER President Roosevelt was certain he could secure popular support for America entering the war - which came only after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
At no time, was the US under direct threat from either Germany OR Japan, and the military commanders of the time knew that. Our interest was in stemming the human, economic and political damage that was resulting from inaction.
You should brush up on your history there, mate...
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Gunsandreligion. Love the calander!
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After 8 years of Bush, America still refuse to recognize something stinks?
Can someone from you lot who support McCain explain to me the logic behind it? I really do fail to see how one can add 1 and 1 and get McCain instead of 2.
I am sick and tired to hear about how some of you refer to the days when America aided Europe in WWII or Bosnia or Kosovo. You are comparing two different Americas and you are not fooling anyone with your faulty reasoning. Yea we are your closest ally, and getting bloody tired of it too.
Even the LIverpool fans are sick of the American pricks who own the club, simply because they exhibit the ignorance and selfishness of today's America.
But please I really want to hear some logical explanation of why America thinks that a super rich war veteran (being a war veteran does not make you a hero) who calls everyone his friend and has no idea what a common working family is, and an Alaskan beauty queen with the wits of a "pitbull" not just the lipstick from what I have read about her, are the right choice for America?
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I would wager that Americans give far more than people in Britain to charity. Per capita.
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I am reading some comments attacks Mr. Webb and journalists in America as anti-palin.
Did it occur to you that appart from our own Mr. Webb, the rest of those journalists you call anti-palin are Americans also who want the best for their country. In one way they know something you do not know, but since America seems to be the land of politically correct ethical lies, they are bound not to tell the truth bluntly, which would probably be a good thing for Palin.
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#356. JohnAAA: "Yes Fox is right-wing (but with a lot of balance, not rapid like eg MSNBC)." Yet on the Disappointment thread, at #1321you wrote: "I can't get Fox, even if I wanted it which I don't."
The question then is how do you know, empirically, that Fox has "a lot of balance" or that MSNBC is "rabid"? Either you watch them or you don't - if you do, then the earlier post was not truthful. Perhaps you will say that you've seen their programmes on one of your thirty or so visits to the United States - but that is no way to judge what a broadcaster does.
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#361,OWilder, you'll find that many support MacCain/Palin because they are republican. They believe that Bush does not represent the repubilcan party and McCain is not seen as more of Bush. Many also think that McCain and Palin have actually done things, proving that they mean what they say.
Of course, just as many people don't think these things at all, and think that, as republicans, McCain/Palin must also be fascists and anyone supporting them must be brain-dead. Well, when I say think, that may be stretching it a bit!
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JohnAAA,
charity? with one hand you steal the worlds money, which is not even yours, with the other you give 10%? is that the sort of charity you talk about mate?
Do you know that America produces enough food to feed the whole world, yet you would rather destroy it than send it to Africa or where it is needed only because you demand they provide the transport. They don't have money to eat, you want them to buy ships to tranport your help...some help. I think you might be giving more praise than deserved to yourself there mate.
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329, R-S
I'm not going to comment on all that has flowed since, but I do appreciate your sense that there can be polite disagreement.
Sometimes I look at this blog and simply refuse to comment because it has veered so off topic and become deeply vituperative: it does those concerned little credit.
I don't proclaim to know the answers though I do have both my hopes and fears. I think Obama is much smarter than he is given credit fo,r and I think McCain is at risk of losing his reputation from his conduct. Biden is probably worthy but dull, and I suspect Palin is a powder keg whose issues may well eventually undermine McCain's campaign: good for a fortnight, a disaster in six weeks. We will soon see.
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306. At 7:20pm on 11 Sep 2008, T1m0thy
Chicken.
Why do you think we hide in the bible and carry guns?
:) This is funny, go on,.. admit it.
Your points are valid, inner cities have in the past expanded rather than rebuild, though I must offer up Dallas, a progressive and 'regrowing' city of a vibrant and exciting downtown.
Our cultural centers are second to none, museums, indoor and out are vibrant. Our stadiums and venues are twenty first century.
I don't think "Texas" is your example state, just wanted to plug a beautiful city with fabulous people. Talk of a melting pot is what other places do, we're Gold Class.
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358. David_Cunard:
"#332. AndreainNY Apparently reading is not one of your perfected skills - I had written that "Although the aggregate sum may be large, the amount individual Americans 'reach into their pockets' is nowhere as great as Luxembourg . . ."
The figures I provided were those per capita, not the combined amount."
Apparently, the fact that the aggregate sum given by American taxpayers (not including their private donations) is substantially larger than several countries combined was lost on you.
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Fox News always has an opposing viewpoint on. It may become a shouting match, and the hosts definitely slant to the right, but there is always someone there to represent the other side.
That's how they get to call themselves "fair and balanced".
It's actually more fair than other stations, which don't even realize they're on one side without representation from the other.
Even the NY Times has conservatives columnists and a range of opinions in its letters to the editors now.
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David_Cunard
Yes I have seen both Fox and MSNBC.
Hannity could be regarded as "rabid" - but Alan Colmes is sitting there beside him.
There is no such balance with people like Olbermnann and Matthews. Even MSNBC have had to push them aside a bit. Both are justv as "rabid" as Hannity, on a scale of 1 to 10 - but at MSNBC they are not balanced out. It is deliberate policy of MSNBC to be leftie.
Just like it was deliberate policy of Channel 4 to be leftie, from the time of its establishment.
CNN is also left-leaning - or would you see them as middle-of-the-road ? With modrate guys like JacK Cafferty every night ?
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Here's another good link to a summary of the laws affecting the citizenship of persons born abroad to US parents, for the true wonks among us:
US citizenship precedents
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Intrade is now showing McCain ahead of Obama
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#359. smoffatt-American "You should brush up on your history there, mate..." Similarly, so should you. The involvement of the United States in WWII was far more complicated than you paint it. I'll leave it to others to fill you in should they wish, although it seems inappropriate for this blog.
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And since the topic here is lipstick...why is Obama accused of sexism when as one of the late night shows in the states provides evidence that Palin herself and a few typical double faced Americans used the very same sexism against Hillary Clinton?
That's brilliant! Seems like this only shows are not just entertainment but the closest thing to truth in America. I am going to watch a few more of them, instead of listening to a bunch of whiners in here.
Smoffat-American...well put. I am glad to hear that there are some people who are not blinded by a sickening patriotism even in America.
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Oh, please! I have read scores of history books on WWII, and I am in substantial agreement with Tim0thy (#303). smoffatt-American (#359) is offering nothing but a semantic argument over the strict meaning of the word "forced."
The reality is that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and the subsequent declaration of war by Germany against the US, convinced practically everyone in the United States except one Congresswoman from Montana of the necessity of war with Japan and Germany, and ended isolationism as a significant sentiment in the United States. If you don't like the word "forced," choose another word more to your liking.
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To#331 Edinglehart
This may be an interesting addition to the link you posted. I have read that when she was Mayor she told the police chief to have rape victims pay for their own rape kits and forensic evidence gathering. If this true, it seems rather COLD especially for a woman from a state with allegedly the highest incidence of violence against women. What if a woman did not have health insurance or her HMO denied the claim?
Just one more thing to consider.
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Complete non-issue like the "Dean Scream." Just more low-brow, Rovian politics - that undermine McCain as a former gentleman. Worse than this is the new childhood sex education, which sinks the republican smear machine to an all-time low. For all you Evangelicals, Christ would spew the entire Republican party out of his mouth - as he despised the vipers of hypocrisy that they are. Obama is not the type of person to insult Sarah Palin in this way, although we have to sit through hours of her vacuous, meanspirited, and smarmy comments, laden with untruths and juvenile snarkiness. But as the Republican is the pork barrel party with their piggish ignorance about the working class, they earn the insult despite the fact that it wasn't intended!
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you'll find that many support MacCain/Palin because they are republican. They believe that Bush does not represent the repubilcan party and McCain is not seen as more of Bush
WHAT? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Bush does not represent the Republicans? Who does he represent? Last time I checked he was Republican. How many Republican Parties are in America? Update me...this is sounding to be very interesting.
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MarkfromOxford (#367), I expect the comments go "off-topic" when Justin posts an insubstantial topic, then disappears for a couple of days.
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# 359 smoffatt-American
I think you should re read what I said. I stated that you had no choice, it did not matter whether most Americans were against the war or not. The facts are simple, firstly the Japanese attacked you, secondly in a show of unity Hitler declared war on the US. The US did not declare war on Germany. Those are the facts. I would also remind you that the US were less than one third of the total allied forces ranged against the axis and that you didn't even beat the 30 million Japanese (as you so disparagingly put it) on your own the British forces which fought their way from India provided nearly as many personnel as did the US.
Leaving aside my level of university education or not I think you are suffering from the usual sin of hubris bolstered by that great American delusion. Hollywood may look good but it sure ain't history.
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#358, David_Cunard:
Well, you are trying to confound her with statistics. Looking just at OECD...
In 2007, the US gave $21,197,000,000 (USD) and the next largest contributor was Germany with $11,048,000,000, third was France with $8,918,000,000 and fourth was the UK with $8,839,000,000.
Comparing per capita, and per GNI, yes the US governments contribution is only a fraction of aid given by the American people. All private charitable giving in the US is roughly $300,000,000,000, where only a portion (10 to 15 percent) is used outside the US.
US and Foreign Aid Assistance
So, yes, people in the US are charitable, but compared to those with greater wealth per capita, the US lags mostly because Americans are more charitable internally than externally.
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#370, AndreainNY :
My issue with this type of programming is that it makes issues seem polar, when there are usually multiple dimensions. The correct answer may not be represented by either person in the debate, nor a compromise along the line between them.
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OWilder
I am not American, I don't know what you are banging on about.
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#366, OWilder:
Don't worry mate. Soon the US will be burning its crops in the form of ethanol and bio-diesel and precious little will be available to give away to the suffering and dying Africans and Asians.
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361. 11 Sep 2008 OWilder:
I thought of starting this as, "you people" but hen I realised it may be me that 'don't understand'.
"After 8 years of Bush, America still refuse to recognize something stinks?"
Let me answer about that smell, you see, when I go to see the Dallas Cowboys play football, I don't even think about the blimp carrying a bomb, why?,... George Bush.
When I go the State of Nevada to party with my brother I do so without fear of flying, like never before I might add, why? George Bush
Thats just two and can go on, legal aspects, medical prescriptions for my mother and assistance for victims crimes and vehicular accidents, pride in the USA and even lesser things to me like the ability of "Cindy the war protester" down at Crawford Texas, was allowed. Why,.. George Bush
"Can someone from you lot who support McCain explain to me the logic behind it?".
Sure I can, and don't take this as I don't think elsewhere has such good people. He is dedicated to service. Okay, whats in it for JM,.. He and His wife are billionares, he lived a hard life with huge struggles, and survived, his children are grown and respectable to the Nth degree, why I ask you do you think this man wishes to serve,.. because he can, and he "Believes" in the USA. For what it is, good for the world, true and sincere.
"You are comparing two different Americas and you are not fooling anyone with your faulty reasoning.
I agree, no more of the anvil over the head, 'look what we did in wwII' crap. As to the statement I kept of yours, sir, you could be no more wrong. You, my friend have been listening to the detractors, those whom for you will be just a casualty in the destruction of the United States, the beacon of freedom for the world through democracy.
"Liverpool fans are sick of the American pricks who own the club"
Of this I know nothing, but thier views are not Americas if hauty, overbearing and mean spirited.
"Alaskan beauty queen with the wits of a "pitbull" not just the lipstick from what I have read about her, are the right choice for America"
I must tell you that some things won't, can't or deserve the time to be answered, because even a childs anylitical mind already knows the answer, but does't like it.
Just like this statement of yours above.
Here is a woman that has exhibited extereme effort and taken the time, worked through hurdles that would have made many accept a life of mediocracy to serve her school, city, state and then federal govenment.
You demean all who have strived and succeded. Her comment of difference and lipstick was clearly to show her stamina and strength, nothing more or less.(other than by those who made it so). Her record of service and family speak volumes,.. that....................'you people' don't want to hear.
:) namaste.. in an unbalanced world
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After years of being a cut above the rest, the BBC has finally joined the echelon of distorted and paid for news reporters! From a Brit living in the US - YOU ARE NOT HELPING! Report the facts... not the ugly spin fashioned by Karl Rove and his disciples. How about a discussion about all Palin's proven lies? Or how all these smear attacks can be immediately credited? Something truth-based - and not the cheesy glitz that you are allowing to cover the issues?
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Another Democrat woman suggests that some of the feminists eg at Salon are being stupid in attacking Palin viciously on a personal level , it actually drives people into the arms of the Republican party :
http://tinyurl.com/5eppdf
Maybe if there had not been 10 days of personal trashing of Palin, Obama's slip-up re. lipstick would not have been such a storm - driving his political message aside.
ABC will be doing their first pieces o Palin tonight. She will not come across as a raving loony.
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Webb has been too busy writing for The Times to be posting her :
http://tinyurl.com/4uhn9e
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284, gunsandreligion:
"Fritz_Kraut, don't bother arguing with MAII,?you're just stimulating his endorphin production."
I know, I know, it's a weakness of mine ;) .
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#384, JohnAAA :
I am not American...
---
I realized that when you properly used "kerfuffle" in a sentence.
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#113
I don't really know what to make of your comment other than you seem to be very disillusioned.
Are making a hero out of a prisoner of war? Do you have any ideas how many people have done braver things than your Mr.Maverick?
Since when does sitting in a prison qualifies you for Hero status?
"Only 7 short years ago misguided Islamic fundamentalists captured the world's attention briefly"
Do you know that us, the so called valiant christians once where the misguided christian fundamentalists who captured the worlds attention for a few centuries? To be fair we didn't have airplanes, just a bunch of criminals with swords and a blessing from the pope, who just loved butchering muslims for no reason. Oh but of course, America was not around at the time. Don't bring religion into the conversation. I have a feeling many of you in America don't even know the history of what you consider your religion, which fairly would make you just as guilty as those you rebuke.
Don't mix religion with 9/11. There is plenty of evidence that is against what you believe happened. You are just using what you want to use to prove your love for your Maverick man. that's my opinion.
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383. RealFrigid:
"#370, AndreainNY :
My issue with this type of programming is that it makes issues seem polar, when there are usually multiple dimensions. The correct answer may not be represented by either person in the debate, nor a compromise along the line between them."
Really good point. I like Chris Wallace's Fox News Sunday, though, since you hear not just differing viewpoints but also their reasoning. They are respectful of each other. It's more like the political discussions I have with friends who hold opposing views. I come away appreciating their perspective.
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377 11 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:
To #331 Edinglehart
...."she told the police chief to have rape victims pay for their own rape kits and forensic evidence gathering."
Maam? From my respect for you from the many of your post I've read, I must ask you to reread your post as it sure seems like hearsay.
The lowest of life here in Texas struggles for the victims of rape, and wants to remove from the planet those who would do such a thing, especially to 'my' daughter, wife, sister, sister-in-law or friend, neighbor or friend of a friends cousin and so on.
So maam, I humbly ask for some form of proof for that statement. Can't DNA an "I heard", and would hate for the innocent to suffer.
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#379, OWilder:
Two or three factions actually, and John McCain is on the outs with all of them.
Old guard Reaganites hate him, going back to his first wife Carol McCain who was good friends with Nancy Reagan.
Neo-cons hate him for his tepid support for their policies(e.g against the Bush tax cuts), and the Evangelicals don't think he is conservative enough on social issues.
One reason that McCain is the Republican candidate this year is that he is the furthest thing from Bush that can still be called a Republican.
McCain's campaign hinges on him being able to distance himself from Bush's doctrines.
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#392, OWilder :
I always love it when people try to use 20th century sensibilities, morality and ethics on 10th, 11th and 12th century civilizations.
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To DougTexan:
Replying with admiration for your views and respect:
"Let me answer about that smell, you see, when I go to see the Dallas Cowboys play football, I don't even think about the blimp carrying a bomb, why?,... George Bush
IS everything about terror and war to you? Did you think about the bloke with a bomb before Bush? You must be one hell of a paranoid person.
When I go the State of Nevada to party with my brother I do so without fear of flying, like never before I might add, why? George Bush
Where you afraid of flying before Bush?
He and His wife are billionares, he lived a hard life with huge struggles? Oh really? sounds like it. they don't say for nothing, money brings you everything but happiness. Poor chap! Maybe he should share some with the rest to ease his burden.
Nth degree? Are you a mathematician? Are you sure you don't mean to use a logarithmic scale?
"will be just a casualty in the destruction of the United States, the beacon of freedom for the world through democracy."
Beacon of freedom for the world? And us british are beacon of what? or Canada, Australia, rest of the civilized world? Are you sure I am the one who has been listening to the wrong people? Are you the right person to listen to?
"Of this I know nothing, but thier views are not Americas if hauty, overbearing and mean spirited." Oh really? Hmmm. Surely I can think of a few other Americans who like to break the rules of the game through their good spirit.
"Time will tell". is 8 more years enough for you? 8 years to realize what idiots you were and how late it is to correct yourself so may as well keep going the same direction with a new face for another 8 year?
One of your countrymen even said Bush does not represent Republicans? Are you people mad? Come back to reality mate. I am not American to believe fiction and myths. Give me facts, that you can support with nonAmerican sources too. I don't want to hear about your self greatness and bible/gun values.
Spending 2 hours reading about McCain and Palin today gave me a fearly good idea about the mental state of Americans.
It seems to me America is simply not ready for a black president, even when they know he is the person they would benefit more from.
But when you start your war with Pakistan or whoever is next in your list, don't ask for our blood. Our sons would rather watch Walcott than torture prisoners and make McCain from a billionaire to a trillionaire.
But for you it might be easier to talk about McCain's tortures that noone can prove and fool yourself into believing the hero he never was, yet hard to accept that your soldiers and unfortunately ours too do currently comitt such uncivilized acts.
I don't care who you vote as President. But as a foreigner who once was proud to stand beside America in advocating justice and freedom but now am ashamed that our government supports your wars, arrogant attitudes, selfish reasons, I would rather see Obama than McCain, leading that country.
"Her comment of difference and lipstick was clearly to show her stamina and strength" But of course. Clearly. And you are the secretary of reading between the lines.
Cheers Mate. You really taught me something about the American way of thinking.
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380, Gary,
Yes, it's not so much the AWOL I mind, as long as the topic is the election, but the lack of intelligent analysis where abuse is the club of choice ....
That being said, I'm sure Paris Hilton could give even Palin a lesson or two about lipstick, and how to apply it to a dog. What I have never understood is why the kind of Eddie Izzard US comedians did not create a transvestite character called Gorgeous Bush who was just a bit worried about her brother with his fantasies about missiles ....
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392
I thought the Crusades were about trying to push back against Islamic invasion of Europe, and constant sea attacks. Not just Spain - all around the western Med.
And the first Americans to fight for the wider world were the sailors and marines who battled with the Barbary Pirates of North Africa, making the sealanes free. (Hence the reference to Tripoli in the hymn)
There had been a history of many Brits - men women and chidren - being captured and forced into slavery plus conversion to Islam - including sea raids on eg the Cornish coast.
I recall the pirates crop up in Samuel Pepys' diaries, right back in the 1670s or thereabouts. So it took a couple of hundred years before the Americans dealt with them permanently.
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Who'd have thunk it ? A Democratic Governor says that Palin has a good deal of executive experience, it is silly for Dems to deny it..
And "Legislators are different. They pass bills back and forth"
Touche !
as James Thurber might have said.
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I just watched Charlie Gibson;s (ABC) interview of Sarah Palin and I must say that I was very impressed with her knowledge of the issues, her quick and candid responses, and her charm and demeanor. If this interview was not choreographed, and she performs as well during the debates, she will win the hearts of mainstream America and their vote.
I still plan to vote for Obama, but I can see why Gov. Palin is so appealing to so many people. Sen. McCain's 7-point lead is no accident and it is not attributed to anything he did, other than picking Sarah Palin.
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389. JohnAAA
Dang, I knew Justin was lerft, just didn't knoe how left
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#395.
Hello RealFrigid. How do you do.
3 Republican Parties? Even more reason why Americans are so confused about which face to show to themselves and the world. 2 faces is hard enough. Three is just too much. Are you insane to believe Bush is not Republican? Are you telling me that all these republican branches as far apart as they are from one another come together one day to vote for someone who is on the outside with all of them? I am sorry, it is either I am incredibly stupid for the American audience or ... i don't know what to say without writing something that might offend you.
I read that McCain abandoned his first wife, because she was paralized and he couldn't stand it. Of course finding a prettier one with billions only a fool would refuse. Are those your American values you value McCain for? Do you want to be like McCain? How can you even think of having such a man as President?
If what you say is true, than I agree with a previous blogger that Republicans are the wrong lot, or the right representation for a people whose IQ is lower than a dinner plate's.
I think Obama, regardless of his color, is the one that has addressed the needs of America domestically and internationally. From what I can tell, McCain is the old dog who claims to have learned new tricks.
But why don't you Americans vote on issues instead of war medals and skin color for a change? It seems to me like you have plenty of those to worry more about.
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395. RealFrigid,
John McCain is as democratic a republican candidate we'll get. His voting record belies a lot of the accusations against him. The right hates him for a reason.
That's why Palin's conservative positions are getting so much play. His opponents get to drag religion back into the picture. They can't make the same accusations against him and have them stick.
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RealFrigid
with all due respect, I don't like your sarcasm. Are you Americans who are wanting to elect as VP a creationists who believes the world was created in 7 days. That comrade goes beyond 12th century. You live a life believing on the same religious myths that the 12th century folks did to yet you claim you are different.
Let's spare each other the sarcasm next time. I have no personal interest in the American election. Just curious and as I have to live in the same world with your lot, I would rather you have a man that the rest of us who are not so intrigued by your bible and gun values can respect and see eye to eye with.
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397 OWilder
Your questions about why Americans want to feel secure are a bit crass - on 9/11 ?
Providing security for its citizens is the first duty of Government.
Too bad you don't agree with the decisions on Iraq and Afghanistan taken by the UK Government, supported overwhelmingly by the House of Commons.
And sweeping generalisations about allAmericans all being stupid or selfish or gun-toting or whatever make me ashamed you are posting from the UK.
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400. JohnAAA:
"Who'd have thunk it ? A Democratic Governor says that Palin has a good deal of executive experience, it is silly for Dems to deny it.."
Democratic Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich said:
"The reality is, governors every day have to make decisions for better or for worse. That's part of the job. It's an executive position. And it's a position that is like what you're going to do when you're president. Legislators, they do different things. They debate and they pass their bills back and forth," he said.
"But governors make decisions, and I think it's a tactical mistake for the Democrats to question Gov. Palin's experience when she's been a governor of a state," he said. "I don't think the size of the state is relevant. It's the kinds of decisions you have to make as governor. They (Democrats) should focus on the issues and why the policies of President Bush ought to be changed and I think that's what will help Obama win."
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/palin_experience_defended_by_i.html
What did you expect a Governor to say? Of course he's got to acknowledge it's a real job. Think he likes his job being compared to Obama's?
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As I said earlier, I don't believe Obama intended this as swipe at Palin. But, this came right on the heels of Palin's "lipstick on a pitbull" description of herself, so this is naturally the first thing that popped into people's minds. How many people knew without being reminded that McCain had said the same thing about H. Clinton's health care plan? Also, Clinton never made a reference to herself and lipstick, so McCain's comments didn't come off as a personal insult. The point being, that Obama (for his own good) should have taken the new dynamic into account before making his funny.
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Glad to be of service.
We here just ain't as high faluten and good as you all, evidently your all failures or the united states would be perfect.
Stupid us, we see England and Europe as next in line to fall to Islam
May the shar'ia law have mercy on you
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402 Doug Texan
The whole BBC has a leftward slant. A leftie groupthink. Quite a few former and present senior BBC people have said that openly.
The BBC trick today is once again to cast doubt on Osama bin Laden's responsibility for 9/11. They say "the Americans believe OBL was responsible". Didn't he say on video he was responsible ? Why any doubt ? Don't most Governemts around the world agree ?
And they say "four hijacked planes crasjed into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field". Passive.
Not "were deliberately flown into...."
The BBC got into a lot of hot water about this sort of weasel words not so long ago. Big fuss at the time, they were forced to apologise and amend the stuff they had as a permanent piece on their website.
But they are incorrigible.
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406. JohnAAA:
"Providing security for its citizens is the first duty of Government"
It's the best kept secret that the Bush Administration has been focused on this since its first meeting after 9/11/01.
Retaliation was secondary. It was always about preventing another attack.
Douglas Feith's book, "War and Decision", is an interesting read on 9/11.
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Seanspa,
That's precisely what I mean. I don't condone any of his alleged behaviour, but I do respect that he has the right to "due process", and that should not be interfered or compromised by "undue influence"Nothing more - nothing less.
Peace and tolerance
ed
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411 AndreainNY
Feith's history unfortunately got very little coverage by the MSM book reviews, I understand. Compared with Woodward's stuff, for example.
"Bury the truth, down the memory hole it goes"
Shades of Orwell's 1984.
George Orwell worked at the BBC, of course.
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Gary,
I expect better from you. What matters is how he IS.disappointed ed
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The Mccain campaign is planning an election day effort to disrupt ballot casting by African Americans and Hispanics by challenging voters.
We all need to be concerned about the integrity of the 2008 elections. In swing-states, the Republican Secretary of State is conducting the biggest purge of voters in history. In Florida, the state is refusing to accept about 85,000 new registrations from voter drives-overwhelming Black and Hispanics voters. The same is happening in New Mexico, Minnesota, North Carolina, Ohio and many other states.
Mccain's campaign is sending misleading mailers with absentee ballots to voters with the effort to challenge the votes of black and Hispanics’ voters.
Mccain's campaign is using all the silly stories to take our attention to the real stories.
The United States's news organizations are not investigating the real issues.
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JohnAAA has very kindly been providing links to any article he can find which, in his view, is anti-Obama. One of the sites he has linked to is http://www.factcheck.org. It does indeed seem to be a fine site. Just look at some of its findings in the last week or so.
- A McCain-Palin TV ad accuses Obama of being "disrespectful" of Palin, but it distorts quotes to make the case.
-Those attacks on Palin that we debunked didn't come from Obama.
- A McCain campaign ad claims Obama's "one accomplishment" was a bill to teach sex ed to kindergarten kids. Don't believe it.
- McCain made some flubs in accepting the nomination.
- Palin trips up on her facts, and Giuliani and Huckabee have their own stumbles on Night 3 of the Republican confab.
- A McCain ad comparing Palin to Obama isn't all above board.
- Lieberman and Thompson make misleading claims about Obama on Day Two of the party in St. Paul.
- A McCain ad wrongly claims Obama plans "painful tax increases" for working families. And who's talking about deficits?
- McCain ad cherry-picks Obama remarks on Iran, twisting his meaning.
In fairness it also has examples of the Democrats bending the truth. Though they only seem to be doing it about half as often.
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Doug, Ed,
Both. McCain is the potato expertWandering Gus, Links tutorial, if you want to do this
Peace to all
ed
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Smoffatt,
Neither did VietNam nor Iraq, but wasn't Pearl Harbour part of America?Complain about this comment
McCain is really showing his cards attacking Obama in this way.
If he had something real to offer that would improve the lives of Americans he would be using that to beat Obama, but instead he has to refer to a wafer thin smear campaign.
What will he do when he is President, and has no one left to sling mud at?
I did have some respect for McCain at some stage, but it is disappearing rapidly.
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DougTexan
Good man, we are behind religious arguments over here.
JohnAAA, obviously you know very little about religion history, let alone what the crusades were about. I see that some of you are stuck up on religious myths, hence any sort of intelligent discussion is off limits as it would turn into an exchange of ignorance. But, I think no matter what you say, I have a clear idea as what sort of people the McCain supporters are, and if yesterday morning I did not what to think of either candidate, I am certain this Obama young man, would be the right person for your once great country, who seems to be at the mercy of religious fools and incompetent swing politicians. I learned more through this bright man called Jon Stewart than from your sarcastic honesty in 3 comments.
Good wishes to you and your family, if you know what's good for you
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#332. AndreainNY: "A few years ago, I recall seeing a list of the world's top 10 providers of foreign aid. Number one? The US at about $13 billion. The UK gave about 1/3 of that." In case you have forgotten - or do not care to acknowledge it - the United States has a population five times greater than that of the United Kingdom. By your reckoning, the UK should have given even less than it did! My figures concerned the amount per head that nations donate and I clearly stated that the aggregate was larger for America. You read what you want to see, not the facts. I have no figures to substantiate personal charitable donations. The UK has a complicated system called "Gift Aid" which does not compare to the tax benefits of charitable donations in the USA, the latter which may account for any increased level over that in Great Britain.
#371. JohnAAA: "Yes I have seen both Fox and MSNBC." But that still does not answer the question of whether you can or desire "to get" Fox. It only requires the removal of one card for an entire house of them to collapse; in your case, this lack of candour appears perilously close to being that card.
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JohnAAA,
if you wish to educate yourself in the history of christianity or islam for that matter, I suggest you look beyond your "holy"books. In Europe and England for that matter, we have seen the power of the church for ages, and the crusades were not about defending Europe from Islam, were about
you will discover some truth at the end of tunnel, and realize that people can live in peace with one another if they do not take as differences their religious views. Religion has been the bane of humanity and it has killed more people than anything else in the name of God, only to bring profit in money and power to a certain few who where either set above the others by name or intelligence.
it might benefit America more if it turns once again to science instead of turning into a religous nut nation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#406. JohnAAA: "Too bad you don't agree with the decisions on Iraq and Afghanistan taken by the UK Government, supported overwhelmingly by the House of Commons." But Iraq not by the overwhelming support of the British people. It eventuated that Mr Blair's statement that WMDs could be launched "within 45 minutes" was false. The Sun was a great supporter, but The Mirror was not.
#410 "And (the BBC) say "four hijacked planes crasjed into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field". Passive.
Not "were deliberately flown into...."
Do you think the British public is so naive and ignorant to believe that they crashed into the three places purely by accident? If so, you're completely out of touch with the British public. No little wonder that you left the Civil Service - or perhaps it left you?
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LIPSTICK? ALL THIS DRAMA IS PART OF A CAMPAIGN TO AVOID THE REAL ISSUES.
We all need to be concerned about the integrity of the 2008 elections all around the United States. In swing-states, the Republican Secretary of State is conducting the biggest purge of voters in history. In Florida, the state is refusing to accept about 85,000 new registrations from voter drives-overwhelming Black and Hispanics voters. The same is happening in New Mexico, Minnesota, North Carolina, Ohio and many other states.
Mccain's campaign is sending misleading mailers with absentee ballots to voters with the effort to challenge the votes of black and Hispanics’ voters.
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re- 361 OWilder
"After 8 years of Bush, America still refuse to recognize something stinks?
Can someone from you lot who support McCain explain to me the logic behind it? I really do fail to see how one can add 1 and 1 and get McCain instead of 2."
First of all, full disclosure- I support neither McCain nor Obama, and will vote a 3rd party candidate out of disgust based on the "pox on both your houses" principle.
There is no question that the Bush presidency has been a disaster in most respects based on any reasonable standard.
However, on issues such as the Iraq war, warmongering re- Iran and Russia, loss of individual freedoms, etc., each and every one of Bush's actions was, in a de facto sense, aided and abetted by a large number (often a majority) of Democrats. Being a Brit, you apparently don't realize that the two political parties are equivalent to two litter-mate pigs, but with different colors of lipstick (just a reference in order to keep with the topic of this blog ;-) ).
On Iraq, Obama is posturing because as a state (not federal) politician, he spoke against the war. When he finally attained his Senate position, he continued to speak against the war, yet he fully supported the war and all of Bush's policy decisions in that regard by funding everything that Bush asked for. In the US Senate, a 40 per cent minority of Senators can bring to a screeching halt any presidential action by refusing to allocate funding - neither Obama nor the rest of the Dems even attempted this (note that for the past two years, the Dems have had a majority in both the House and the Senate).
When pressed for specifics, Obama has not articulated any credible strategy for getting out of Iraq, and thus his approach is completely indistinguishable from Bush's - note that Obama does not advocate withdrawing all US forces from Iraq- he wants to leave a substantial number there "indefinitely".
Obama has promised that he would take "any actions necessary" to prevent Iran from developing nukes, just like Bush and McCain. He has advocated expanding the Afghan war into Pakistan, if necessary, again, just like Bush and McCain.
Both Obama and McCain are in the tank for AIPAC and thus neither will allow a just resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian and other related conflicts.
Bottom line on warmongering - Obama represents nothing new or different.
Regarding economic issues- both parties act in a manner that enriches their entrenched interests rather than the nation as a whole. The only difference is that Reps like some interests that the Dems don't, and vice versa. Both parties kowtow to the financial institutions, the defense industry, big oil, agribusiness, big pharma, etc. by providing them tax breaks and taxpayer handouts. Dems complain about Rep policies but based on actual legislation that gets passed, there is NO substantive difference between the two parties in their support of "big business".
In tax policy, both Reps and Dems tend to favor the well-to do based on actual tax legislation that gets passed. Dems seem to have a slightly greater interest in the "poor" than Reps, but not significantly. Bottom line- the middle class gets shafted by both the Dems and Reps.
In legal matters, the Reps tend to favor those judicial appointments that are pro-2nd Amendment, while the Dems favor the opposite. Both parties favor judges that seek to enhance the power of the federal government at the expense of the states and the people. Both parties tend tend to vote for laws that are leading us toward an authoritarian police state, e.g. Patriot Act. Obama's positions and actual votes are consistent with this.
As far as corruption goes, Obama is not different from McCain. Obama has steered earmarks to businesses and organizations for which his wife works or is a member of the board of directors. His wife even received a doubling (or tripling) of her salary as compensation for all the government money Obama steered her way once he became a Senator.
I could go on and on with many examples, but this is getting too long already.
The bottom line is that the Obama "difference" is smoke, mirrors, and a good PR machine. He is intelligent, articulate, and an outstanding public speaker. Yet, when one looks at his ACTIONS (votes and legislative proposals) rather than just listening to what he says, there is nothing to indicate that he represents anything substantively different from Bush or McCain. Those who think there is a major difference have been taken in by the hype.
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This thread has shown a few examples of lucidity.
The most interesting question was "After eight years of Bush, how COULD you vote Republican?"
The answer was:
(1) Because we are Republicans.
(2) Because McCain is not a real Republican
and
(3) Because Bush has been a beautiful symbol protecting me in a threatening World.
Although contradictory, (1) and (2) is probably honest rationalization within an individual.
(3) As usual, represents the phrasing of one thoroughly indoctrinated.
All of the foregoing were sincere and thus, in this thread, exceptional.
_______________________-
From my telescope on Mars, I see:
the American economy going on a full war footing to recover from economic Depression
a NeoCon-driven attack on Iran and Syria (fostered by the Israeli sympathizers within the USA)
a Russian counterattack by land armies and missiles
Whether it goes to nuclear war involving the respective heartlands depends on the White House occupants.
This election is important for the World!
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#332
Andrea,
So you are saying the Brits gave twice as much per person. Smells about right.
Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
and Palin says it all.
typical redneck, but since when do rednecks understand Abe LIncoln.
The woman doesn't even understand quotes let alone policies:
Now all you Obama haters blame BBC!!!!
She said she was quoting the words of Abraham Lincoln: "I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words."
"But what Abraham Lincoln had said... was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side."
Looks to me like this woman thinks God is with her
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405. At 00:15am on 12 Sep 2008, OWilder wrote:
RealFrigid
with all due respect, I don't like your sarcasm. (I do) Are you Americans who are wanting to elect as VP a creationists who believes the world was created in 7 days. (compared to you thinking your an accident/freak of nature?)That comrade(Russian) goes beyond 12th century.(and counting) You live a life believing on the same religious myths that the 12th century folks did to yet you claim you are different.
(not'different like you')
Let's spare each other the sarcasm next time. (no)I have no personal interest in the American election.(then shut up) Just curious and as I have to live in the same world with your lot,(and we with your lot) I would rather you have a man that the rest of us who are not so intrigued by your bible(athiest,communist) and gun values(you have none) can respect(Obamas not Christian!) and see eye to eye with.(Muslim?)
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Dear BBC Blog contributor,
Thank you for contributing to a BBC Blog. Unfortunately we've had to remove your content below
:
Owilder
Your words, not mine.
''Are you insane to believe Bush is not Republican?"
"..it is either I am incredibly stupid..."
"...that McCain abandoned his first wife, because she was paralized and he couldn't stand it."
"that Republicans are the wrong lot, or the right representation for a people whose IQ is lower than a dinner plate's."
"...Obama, regardless of his color,'''
"But why don't you Americans vote on issues instead of war medals and skin color.."
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New York Times op-ed - kinda "get a grip on yourselves, Dems" :
http://tinyurl.com/65j2gh
The Comsequences of Rejecting Hillary :
http://tinyurl.com/5sdxf4
Meanwhile McCain is still ahead on the RCP averaging of all the polls - one was tied. Obama was ahead on one of them, McCain ahead on six of them. And McCain now ahead on InTrade.
(OWilder I have already told you I am not American, stop preaching at me as if I were)
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Most here miss the point about the remark "lipstick on a pig". The fact that it is