Never on a Sunday?
My point to MockingbirdGirl and others is that that when a crisis is really serious, people of religious faith might consider their priorities. Yes, on Good Friday or any other day of religious/cultural significance.
There are plainly some religious Jews for whom it would be simply impossible to work at this time.
I remember in Northern Ireland where I began my career there were some politicians who would not be interviewed on Sunday. That is a matter for them and their constituents and I imagine most of their constituents (there and here in the US) would regard such faith-based decisions as an important right. I have been in Israel for Yom Kippur. I know it matters.
But when Israel was attacked in 1973, on that day, a report from the time suggests that survival trumped observance for many:
"Most Jews had been observing strict religious rules of fasting and prayer, but with the outbreak of fighting, Israel's civilian reserve force is now rushing to mobilise."
On other matters, I don't think I have ever seen one single short article so deeply unconvincing as this.
This is better, though I still suspect fundamentally wrong, and the idea that the rise of Venezuela (a rise wholly dependent on high oil prices and trade with the USA!) somehow signifies a tectonic shift in global power is an argument I fear it may be difficult to sustain.
This is more sensible from an area of the world where they know the difference between a crisis and a calamity.
But overall, if we all end up living in caves and bartering for our lunch, I know which group of cave-dwellers will soon come to dominate the world again...
Hello, I'm 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~15~RS~)
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No, the fall of America is not yet. Simply put the japanese thought they could in WWII. Germany thought they could as well. Korea exploded our reserve, Vietnam saw turmoil and unrest in the population, 911 was a devastor and we saw a resugance of patriotism, and anger that was short lived and over hyped by Bush.
Yesterdays defeat of Bushs request was not due to Pelosi, but to the citizens who have had enough. Todays market rise and confidence in our markets shows our ability to rise above. Far from beat.
The election of 2008 is different than the Bush~Kerry competition. This election those 'new' voters of "Michael Moores slacker uprising" have now had four years of experience. The blog-a-sphere and alternate media have caused wide spread inteligence, not compliance.
It isn't that we all agree, it is that we are all involved. Our society isn't the 'disassociated hippie' or anti-american left of the seventies. This is our country, we are here, and will be counted. The elected few will hear from more from his constituants than ever before in History. Democracy requires involvement, and 'We the People' were absent the last few years.
we're back
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Excellent food for thought Justin - particularly after the polarisation that occurred after your last post.
It all boils down to choice, doesn't it ?
America is presented with two of them.
On the on hand, a cool, thoughtful, disciplined man who might seem to some to have risen too quickly and not have paid his dues - and might seem to others to be just what is needed at this time. He has the additional baggage of being much admired in the rest of the world who have come to dread America under George Bush. He has the further baggage of a dark skin colour.
On the other hand, you have a tested old pol in the traditional style, flawed but well known, who is quite fills the 'devil you know' slot.
I am one of those people who started paying notice to this site because I wanted to articulate to the Americans just how much damage the Bush/Cheney years had done - and I thought that America deserved better than that.
It is turning out to be far more interesting than that - and when Justin starts to talk about 'back to the cave men' we realise just how low the developed world has sunk under its present leadership.
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You are equating this so-called 'crisis' with the outbreak of war !
What utterly fatuous nonsense !
This is the kind of tripe which John McCain was peddling...
Running around like headless chickens, and working on a Jewish religious holiday, does not constitute 'calm and effective' action.
Just because YOU don't understand religion doesn't mean that this condescending twaddle has any mileage for those who do !
Any more of this 'chicken licken' the 'sky is falling in', and pandering to this agenda of mischief-making panic-spreading and I will be forced to shoot off to Paul Mason for a slightly more circumspect view on affairs.
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How many Republicans does it take to not change a light bulb?
Answer: 159. Two to claim they are going to change it, a dozen to say that changing bulbs is not the American way, a dozen more to claim there’s nothing wrong with living in darkness, and 133 to vote down the electricity bill.
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Do you mean these cave-dwellers ?
http://zavibes.com/index.php/a-message-from-john-cleese/
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Who has mortgages?
Who has insurance?
Who has car loans?
Who has student loans?
Who has pensions?
I have been rather lax and have only managed to get one of these... the student variety. I had expected to get all of them except the car loan within the next three years.
So why should we care about Wall Street, or the FSTE?
Peoples Pensions have lost around 25% of their value.
Banks loan and underwrite each other.
A bank uses the money you put into it to try and make money elsewhere.
Assuming lots of people want to take out money at the same time it needs to be able to hold 10% of its money at any one time. If it needs more it borrows it off of another bank.
Easy except the top of this tree are not lending to each other. Which means they are not lending to your high street banks, which means how are they to lend to you?
Now you have a mortgage for a house that is worth less, rising inflation, and you pension is worth alot less that it was a year ago.
Add to that, eventually the interest rate will have to rise... the governments will try to get us to buy out of recession. Repayments will cost more and your wage will go less far.
Then your company which needs investment to develop new products cannot get the money. This leads to Job losses. Now you cannot pay your Mortgage and are close to losing your house.
________________________________
This is what congress was, in theory, trying to avert. They might not have had the best plan but all the plan really was, was to free up some cash in the system and hope that people looked on the world with a sunnier disposition nand got away from the Fear.
Now what? Manna is not everything I guess but still lots of people have invested everything in this system.
The lunatics have taken over the asylum (Our american Sisters and Brothers let them, and we are not blameless in this either my smug Europeans) and you can only hope that one of them finds a way of clearing up the mess.
Empty
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To many in America, religious holidays take precedence over mere business dealings. In times of crisis, only the most important holy days -- such as Christmas, Rosh Hashanah, etc -- will still take precedent, unless life and limb are immediately at stake.
The 1973 attack on Israel is such a case -- the "no" vote to the bail-out plan is not.
The Jews and Muslims have an excuse; I suspect the rest were in need of a much-needed break. And it's doubtful much would have been accomplished during that time anyway.
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I think that may be the difference of opinion. A lot of people don't see this as the huge crisis that it is being touted to be. You cannot equate the failure of some banks with a military attack. The sky is not falling.
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Justin, from your link to Haaretz,
Hear! Hear! [my emphasis added]Act in haste and repent at leisure! Caveat Emptor!
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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LordBeddGelert:
You are being remarkably silly. You may not agree with the sentiment about how desperate things are but many do.
Justin wrote:
"There are plainly some religious Jews for whom it would be simply impossible to work at this time.
I remember in Northern Ireland where I began my career there were some politicians who would not be interviewed on Sunday. That is a matter for them and their constituents and I imagine most of their constituents (there and here in the US) would regard such faith-based decisions as an important right. I have been in Israel for Yom Kippur. I know it matters."
Implying that he does understand the importance of religeon in some people eyes and then raises the question:
"Is this crisis not big enough for special measures?" (para-phrased from between the lines)
Your answer is no
Others think yes
I might sit pearched on a fence and watch the headless political chickens run amock. What fun is there left to watch... I ain't gonna buy a house anytime soon to while away my hours on DIY.
Empty
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#5 flaubertstortoise
I'm sure I've heard that before...
Recently...
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Empty,
Your failure to accumulate enough excess indebtedness means you'll miss out on the joys of defaulting when the system collapses.
;-)
ed
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Quite staggering. There is an old saying......
*when the going gets tough, the tough get going*
Albeit there is a case for taking a step back and loosening a steam valve or two in these circumstances, in my book it was 120 percent beholden on elected leaders during this crisis to put the interests of their charges, i.e. genuine and very real US national interest, first.
Think of it this way. Just for a second, Congressmen and women, consider those in the military and other public services on duty during this and any other holiday? Oh yes, I can think of certain people would have been the very first to squeal if allied troops during WWII had decided to literally *sack it* on high days and holidays for similar reasons, in the unrelenting face of adversity - buying your future, thank you, at the expense of so many of their own lives.
Yes, this was very much a time to step up to the plate and be counted and do ones duty for as long as it takes - end of.
Frankly this just another example that shows me where we are, or are not, both in raw human terms and in leadership quality terms, here in 2008. Mark my words....... global storm clouds are brewing...... key lessons of history have been completely thrown out the window........ get out and recce your cave now everyone and be warned.
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Now I understand why Bin Laden is living in a cave.
He probably held a considerable amount of
Lehman Brothers' stock.
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Justin,
Us Troglodytes with firearms?
Anyway, it's not a cave. It's a bunker. Very snug and warm and fully supplied.
Snug Sam
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4
'You are equating this so-called 'crisis' with the outbreak of war ! '
YES!
and not just any war, a big power shift, dont doubt it. One in which amerca's friends are few.
The outcome of this crisis has a number of very scary plausable scenarios.
A defining moment.
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Mr Angry
McCain threatens another "suspension"!
Oh No! Please don't throw us in that briar patch!
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I was thinking that the Presidency was a poisoned chalice but maybe not.
There is the opportunity to look statesmanlike in this crisis - which will probably have an unalterable course by the time he's elected.
Property price crises tend to end with an upward pointing bang. I'm not sure that will be true in the USA because there's an overbuild of property. That's a year or two away. The overbuild might make it longer.
Then he'll finally get the chance to do whatever he promised to - which he could not before this, perfectly legitimately, because of the financial situation.
That might still have some effect when he comes to be re-elected.
There is one thing about Justin Webb's leader. On the world stage, appearance counts for a great deal. If the President spends a couple of years looking highly parochial (unlikely), others may move into America's spot on the world stage.
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Though Gray's piece might have over egged a bit, fundamentally it's true.
The US just cannot afford to go on as it has, in deficit's, worldwide military presence and the rest.
Recently The Pentagon 'war-gamed' a major air battle between US/Taiwanese forces with China.
Around the year 2020.
But this reminded me of Labour PM Harold Wilson, to constant attacks on him, by his own party, for not in public attacking the Vietnam war.
(He kept our troops out, though allowed the use of British bases by the US).
Finally Wilson, fed up with this, told these party members 'you cannot kick your creditor in the balls!'
In the mid 60's, the US was effectively the creditor to the UK economy, had been since 1940/1.
Who now, is the main creditor to the US?
China.
But don't expect radical adjustments overnight, after all, it was 1890 that the US economy overtook the UK's-then the prime world power by some distance.
A quarter of a century later, WW1 weakened further the UK's position.
But it was not until after WW2 that it was clear that for Great Britain, the Imperial game was over.
Even afterwards, consider Suez in 1956, how did the US exert pressure on the UK to end that foolish military adventure?
By economic pressure.
Even further after that, the Wilson government came to power in 1964 still commited to retaining military bases in the Middle and Far East.
(Which in a reverse of US policy since independance, they now supported. Anti communism and all that).
But then they open the books, it's dire.
Within 18 months, these £ Sterling sucking bases were slated to be closed.
(Winning a counter insurgency war in Borneo helped some however).
After the devaluation crisis in 1967, this was greatly speeded up.
I don't think there are exact parallels with the US now and in the future, but something is going to give.
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I think it's good that the House is stepping back for a minute, whatever reason they give for doing so. They were being hustled. The last time there was a huge emergency and we were all in immediate danger and Congress had to hand over some of their traditional powers to some guy was...hmmm....oh, yeah, 2003. That Iraq business. It didn't turn out so well.
Nearly the entire Georgia delegation voted against the bill, both Democrats and Republicans. It was not, as some people are saying, because they were worried about their seats....John Lewis and Hank Johnson certainly weren't. It was because their constituents were universally against it. *I* was against it, because of the hustle factor and the direction the hustle is coming from. (Who trusts Bush any more? Not even his own party.) I think, ultimately, that the cost of taking a little more time to consider will be far less than the cost of a rush to judgment.
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Playing the Clinton Card
Sly
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#18
Ed,
Don't mock, it worked so well last, umm. Forget it.
=)
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I wonder who they will persuade to change their minds ?
They have a choice of going left to persuade the Democrats or right to bring in the Republicans. Or...
On the one hand, the Democrats have the majority so if they can get them all aboard they can win.
On the other hand, if this is seen as a Democrat fix then they'll get the blame from the angry population - just for doing it, whether it succeeds or fails. Although of course they might just think they can dump it all on George W Bush and they might just be right.
On the third hand (genetically engineered to come out of your lower side and pick people's pockets to gain respect in the markets) they could go for some kind of middle ground but that's going to be extremely tricky. If you were a Republican seeking re-election, what would persuade you to vote for this deeply unpopular measure ?
The national interest ? Whose nation and whose interest ?
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Given the surprise of the hidden economic meltdown, many lawmakers ran for cover rather than explaining to the electorate how it would affect them with respect to the credit crunch. They chose to avoid working to pass a solution that would protect taxpayers and not reward Wall Street. It had more to do with being faced with the failure of greed and risk taking writ large rather than any religious convictions.
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The wonderful (Canadian) Joni Mitchell sang:
We walked on the Moon
You be polite
I can't think of a better way to say it.
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Fundamentalists and evangelicals voice opinions about wars and oil pipelines being the work of God, but I am confident they have enough sense to know better. The only thing that worries me about folks with extreme religious convictions in the White House is that they have the power to nominate candidates to the Supreme Court who share their convictions. The possibility and consequences of a far right majority in the Supreme Court should be an important consideration when we cast our votes in November.
As for the end of America being around the corner, I think it will be a long time before our day of reckoning; we are having serious problems as a result of our failed fiscal and economic policies, but we remain the most powerful nation on the planet and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Those that pray for our demise may regret it when our time comes and we are replaced by China or some other superpower. We are aggressive in pursuing our economic and geopolitical goals, but others may very well prove to be ruthless in their endeavours. If nothing else, there is a good chance you will not be able to express your opinions with the freedom you currently do on this blog.
Adios BBC!
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"Some of my best friends are Jewish." How come you didn't give us that one Mr. Webb? That's all you left out as you step deeper and deeper into it. Having lost both your credibility as a journalist and your dignity, why not quit now while you still have even one shred of the tattered remains of anything still left. Have you noticed that contrary to what you and some of those most insistant in Washington DC have warned, the world did not come to an end today and the United States of America still continues to function pretty much as it had before? Fortunately, a few days respite to reflect on the situation and discuss it rationally and thoughtfully may yet let cooler heads prevail and a workable solution to the problem may still emerge. In the meantime, if I were you, I'd take some time for some thoughtful reflection myself and I would also think about the fact that Justin Webb is an outside observer in America who is here to report without being offensive or judgemental of what he obviously does not understand.
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I suppose that a $700 billion bailout (sorry, we must call it a rescue package), becomes small change when a Congressional vote against it leads to an immediate One Trillion Dollar drop in the DJ Index.
All things are relative .........
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#9, JSlayerUK, you wrote:
"I think that may be the difference of opinion. A lot of people don't see this as the huge crisis that it is being touted to be. You cannot equate the failure of some banks with a military attack. The sky is not falling."
I beg to differ. There are 2 major reasons why
this is a crisis.
1. We, as a nation, have to own up to the fact
that we have been living beyond our means,
and that our leadership has been leading us
in the wrong direction for perhaps 20-30 years,
into dependence on foreign capital and energy.
2. (And, this is the real reason why this is a crisis)
We have nobody to blame but ourselves. As
Pogo the comic strip character said, "We have
met the enemy, and he is us." It is characteristically
true that the Chinese fear civil war; the Russians
fear the West; the Germans are fatalists, so
they just have angst; the Japanese fear whatever
they just went through; the Mexicans and Moroccans
fear being unable to emigrate; the British fear
not being able to get their favorite foods (which
nobody else can understand or want); the
French fear losing their language and culture;
the Poles fear the Russians; but we Americans
have the most profound fear of all - that of
not having anybody else to blame.
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Plausible (not probable) scenario number 1:
'Germany's Weimar Republic was hit hard by the depression, as American loans to help rebuild the German economy now stopped. Unemployment soared, especially in larger cities, and the political system veered toward extremism. Repayment of the war reparations due by Germany were suspended in 1932 following the Lausanne Conference of 1932. By that time Germany had repaid 1/8th of the reparations. Hitler's Nazi Party came to power in January 1933. In 1934 the economy was still not balanced enough for Germany to work on its own.'
Use your imagination forthe other plausible scenarios out there. The world as it stands is dangerous enough, the last thing we need is america becoming a wounded + dangerous entity
Maybe politicians should ponder on that before the next vote.
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@ Ed No. 5
I know... I fear I will be Billy no-mates as everyone else gets to enjoy that pleasure.
My cup is half
Empty
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Just when I think US politicians have reached their nadir, they surprise me and sink even lower. Republicans in Congress seem to want to teach Wall Street a lesson. What they apparently do not understand is that if left to market forces the financial crisis we now face will deteriorate, quickly, and we all will suffer as a result. In fact the domino effect will impact all nations, not just the USA. The consequences have the same potential as a war on a global scale. Lack of oversight, regulation, born out of the hands-off policies of the Bush administration are to blame. This is not pointing fingers, this is identifying the problem. The administration in Washington have brought this pestilence on the American people, that's why we, and the rest of the world, needs change - not more of the same incompetent, failed policies we would get under a McCain reign.
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'Because of high levels of United States investment in Latin American economies, they were severely damaged by the Depression. Within the region, Chile, Bolivia and Peru were particularly badly affected. One result of the Depression in this area was the rise of fascist movements.'
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'Australia's extreme dependence on agricultural and industrial exports meant it was one of the hardest-hit countries in the Western world, amongst the likes of Canada and Germany. Falling export demand and commodity prices placed massive downward pressures on wages. Further, unemployment reached a record high of almost 32% in 1932, with incidents of civil unrest becoming common. After 1932, an increase in wool and meat prices led to a gradual recovery.'
these could be similar to headlines we could get in the coming years.
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@ SONICBOOMER no. 20
Interesting thoughts. Did not necessarilly agree as the US position is generally more in parallel with East India Company Policy of port towns (in this case airbases) until Clive decided to rule the subcontinent but certainly food for thought.
Maybe GWB is really America's Clive who they have realised is an idiot before it really gets messy.
Empty
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Sonic, Well summarised.
Seconded! There is no real hurry, and a lot of air remains to be bled out of the biggest bubble in a century.Scamis,
Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss...
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A moment of perspective, please. The US economy is not 'crashing'. People's 401ks and investments are not 'losing' value.
Borrowed money does not equal wealth generation!
Portfolios and 401ks and all the rest LOOKED like they were growing in value over the past few years when the reality was that they were NOT. Investment houses were borrowing money to buy stocks, which artificially inflated the price of those stocks.
The actual VALUE of those stocks didn't change, because the wealth generation of the companies those stock applied to didn't change. And it's not changing now.
It's a dangerous delusion to believe that money borrowed to drive growth can be 'disappeared' by moving that debt 'off the books'. If I borrow $100 to make 50 wigets that I then sell for $3 each I have made only $50, less the interest due on the loan.
Selling that debt to myself in the guise of an off-balance-sheet entity does not change the equation, it just changes the numbers I give to my shareholders.
What's been going on for the past several years is a Ponzi Scheme (look it up). And like all accounting games, once the real value of goods is marked to market, as with all the worthless mortgages that were sold as AAA bonds, once that happens, prices return to a truer valuation of products. This is NOT 'wealth destruction', this is the sound of artificial numbers being replaced by accurate information.
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#15 - gunsandreligion
Careful Guns. Many a true word spoken in jest.
Perhaps this is all a terrorist attack on the world economy - beats hijacking planes any day of the week.
On second thoughts, perhaps we should not go there . . .
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# 22 ~ Bill's toast.
What's he going to do. If McCain should win is he going to find himself a Republican adviser ? I don't think so.
And if Obama wins it will be no thanks to him.
And if he's thinking of 2012 for Hillary, he has lost a huge part of his constituency - first amongst African Americans, second amongst loyal Dems, and third amongst all those people who stood by him when he let them down (or let his pants down).
Don't understand what he's up to. Does anyone else ?
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Candace9839 (#25) the Rosh Hashanah recess is a regularly scheduled event. It has been on the House calendar all year.
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@ Wanderingangus no. 29
That's only 300 Billion more... 42.9% more... small change...
LOL
Still
Empty
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# 28
Hello Marcus
No we didn't miss you and we've actually moved on to discuss other things. Don't let that stop you being a few steps behind though - just as long as you're in your comfort zone nobody will mind.
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Recessions are normal and normally for the vast majority of people not that big a deal. The problem is we've been playing financial games for 20 years pretending real recessions no longer happen. Recessions are a normal part of the business cycle. It is why you should not get too much into debt and why you should have money saved for the inevitable lean times. Our financial system needs to undergo this recession. It will not be fun but it will not kill us. As with life itself it will be unfair to some people but most of the people who seriously suffer will be the people who gambled the most and saved the least.
We need a recession to clean up the inevitable mess from the peak of a boom. All postponement does is make it much worse when it does happen, such as now. We are much better off finally taking the painful hit now than just continuing to make it even worse in the future.
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MAII, that was a little nasty. Just because you
took what Justin wrote the last time in the wrong
way does not imply that Justin is in any way
anti-semitic.
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I dont know that the Observer piece is necessarily 'fundamentally' wrong, not for the long term, anyway. It's a counterblast to Fukayama's "End of history' thesis, isn't it, really, and that barely lasted a couple of years, so that was certainly fundamentally wrong. It got an awful lot of support though, and it obviously still underlies some of the attitudes we have heard expressed over the last week or so.
But hadn't you noticed that Venezuela has just been chatting to the Chinese? About oil? Or that countries in South America have been very much getting together over the last year?
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Speed up Moderator please. You're slower than a one legged clipped winged peacock who managed to snaffle some gin.
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Well, actually Justin, more will be accomplished if all of the representatives are away on holiday....let's pray they don't come back.
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#30, gunsandreligion:
A clue to my nationality lies in the last two letters of my screenname.
In any case, I don't see this as a real crisis. The sun will go up and the sun will come down. There will be air in my lungs and my family around me. Most importantly - Eastenders will still be on telly. Even in July 2005 after the Tube bombings, the BBC interrupted the news coverage to air Eastenders.
Let's have some perspective here - a crisis isn't a crisis unless my favourite TV shows get moved. When the BBC decide that the credit crunch is of such importance that we no longer visit Albert Square - then I will accept that there is something wrong. Otherwise, this is just a big fuss over nothing... :P
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I have a really brilliant idea - First, everyone chant "the economy is fundamentally sound" in very loud voices and everyone who sez it isn't is NOT a patriot and must hand in their flag pins. Next, Alaska can pay all of the bridge and road to nowhere monies BACK to the federal government. Then the IRS can travel back in time and NOT send everyone a cute little tax refund check by mail, with two little prior notices that the check will be coming, sent by mail, and fund a bailout with the cash saved on postage! Lastly, pass a quick 75% of CEO pay tax (c'mon...just take it!) retroactive 15 years...including Cheney's....that really ought to cover it.
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Ah here it is two forty in the afternoon, having done nothing in the "Rescue" of the market, screaming we need the BUSH Government to save us from ourselves,.. opps, the Dow is up over four hundred.
Housing prices are leveling out in swing states and unemployment is still just over five percent. No more Bull from those that want to manipulate the markets to their benifit. No more hidden tax in inflationary printing of money.
How'd you say it Ed, Act in haste, repent in leisure. So true, we have no dire need of this bailout, just some tweaking of the finer points.....compensation, regulation and oversight,.. beauracracey... not tax dollars up front to be stolen.
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What concerns me is not so much that the recent problems at individual banks or on the Dow Jones will be the cause of real problems in the US economy.
What concerns me is that these are symptoms of the real problem - an overwhelming structural failure in the US economy.
Perhaps the problems have been brewing for decades while the US has been living beyond its means.
Future historians may point to September / October 2008 as 'the time when changes happened', but I suspect these times may just be a convenient coat-peg for historians.
I think we are seeing a process by which the US is ceasing to be the world's sole economic superpower. Just as an earthquake reflects an underlying gradual shifting in tectonic plates in the earth's crust.
Hello, China, Asia and the Middle East.
The ramifications may be unwelcome both in the US and Europe.
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#28
Marcus,
At least Justin has friends. And while Justin is a guest in our nation, you are a guest on his Blog.
Now I shall have to ask you to apologize for being disrespectful to your host. Or step outside.
Sir, I demand satisfaction.
Your choice, pistols, sabres or long winded mindless waffle?
Agressive Sam
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#36
Flying,
But Clive wasn't an idiot. He was an East End thug.
Sam Pirhana
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A dozen or so Democratic Congressmen and Congresswomen who voted against the bailout yesterday are holding a press conference on C-SPAN explaining why they considered the legislation a bad bet for America, a bad bet for the taxpayers, inadequate, and unacceptable. They read it and they didn't like what it said. They not only shot it full of holes specifically point by point, they explained what kinds of changes would be required to turn it into legislation they would vote for. They were from all over the country, Oregon, Ohio, Maryland. They were Black, White, men, women and they are smart. To ascribe the defeat of this legislation to anything beyond its incompetence is to overlook the native intelligence of many of the people America elects to govern itself. That is a serious misjudgement. It is also a serious misjudgement to trust media commentators who do not have a clue to what is actually happening or understand what it means. How many people who actually read the legislation and then voted one way or the other did you listen to before you made your comments about it Mr. Webb or do you expect American legislators to endorse whatever is sent their way without even reading it let alone understanding it the way European legislators and leaders endorse the pronouncements of the EU Parliament? We don't do things that way here Mr. Webb.
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Well you can't compare a war with a financial crises...but
People do loose job, house, car pension, which is their life as they know it and even though they don't die, they end up in a new life, one or a couple of levels down.
If you are a politician in parliament you have to make personal sacrifices in times of crises, no matter what kind of crises.
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Re 55
MAII
A really good post (and I'll be honest that I never thought that I would say that about one of yours)
(until the end - why do you seemingly always have to end or start with an attack on Europe?)
I think you are right to question the lack of critical analysis of the bailout and its consequences. The coverage here has predominantly been that the failure of the bailout is negative and it will inevitably be passed.
I am also sure that for those who voted against it for well articulated reasons, there are those who voted against it for purely political (aka re-election) reasons. Or maybe I am cynical.
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#55
Waffle it is then.
Marcus,
The only issue with the bill failing is it was a negotiated bipartisan compromise. When something is presented as a bipartisan bill the leaders of each party have signed up to deliver at least 50% of their party to make sure it passes, or it doesn't go to the floor for a vote.
There is whole process for checking this. It includes tallying up your members, polling them in caucus and so on, before going back to the table and saying 'I have my votes'.
This avoids wasting congress time, anyone looking stupid or trying to score stupid political points. At the point where the bill was announced as a compromise and McCain tried to take credit for it, albeit a flawed bill, both Pelosi and Boehner had made this commitment. Pelosi delivered, period. Boehner didn't. Period. Not even close.
So one of two things happened. Boehner negotiated in bad faith (which I do not believe) or his party have so little trust and respect for him, their President and their candidate that they misled him, in large numbers. So yes, there was incompetence on the part of 3 folks. Bush, Boehner and McCain.
As for European parliaments, they regularly reject treaties and pronouncements from Parliament, such as the European constitution. Some even have Referendums and let the people decide.
So while you criticize Justin, who talks to the decision makers quite a lot, for not having a clue. You make no suggestion for other everyday folks. Should they listen to the media, or a sad old blogger sitting in a doublewide in NJ? I would suggest Mr Webb may have his finger slightly more firmly on the pulse of the Nation than that blogger.
One can only assume that by talking down to your host you are trying to establish yourself as some kind of Lou Dobbs / Jack Cafferty curmudgeon figure who people feels express their views. Except you don't. And aren't funny. Then again they aren't very funny either.
Procedural Sam
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Not only an American "cheerleader" but an Israeli "cheerleader", aswell. Not sursprisingly, the two usually go hand-in-hand. Partners in crime and partners in propaganda. The "religious faith" of both countries is the same, belief is their own "chosenness" to laud it over others with the most extreme brutality. So you will see American bombs and chemical weapons dropped in Iraq and Nam and all over on 'Good Friday' and every other religious holiday; and Israel will go on strafing, torturing and building illegal settlements on Friday's as well as every other day of the week. So let's the rise of Venezuela and neighboring countries as an alternative model of development isn't so "difficult to sustain" because it ends up getting the same treatment from the devout imperialists from the north and their lackeys like the UK and Israel. Those Anglo-America cave dwellers still practice their stone-age ethics - as does their Israeli outpost - and they may yet reduce the rest of the world to that same primitive condition again.
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@ Sam no. 54
That really made me laugh... I in no way wanted to imply that Clive was an idiot, more that the policy was idiotic. He was self-agrandising and only really interested in the wealth he could accumulate by the ventures. Sound like Iraq?
The Raj did not make money for Britain if you remove the opium poppy trade that we inflicted on the Chinese and they had the Gall to rebel against it. Sound like Iraq?
In the end the Raj and other colonies sucked money in like a black hole. Standing armies cost money and when the opium money went it was a massive drain on our economy which led to the US overtaking the British Empire. Sound like China and the US?
No Clive was not an idiot just self-serving. I do not think that Buh is an idiot either by the way, just self-serving.
Totally
Empty
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69;
United States Senators and Congressmen are not property to be delivered. They do not represent the interests of their party the way European Parliamentarians do. They are thinking human beings who act independently in the service of their constituents alone. American taxpayers are outraged over the proposed bailout. One Republican Congressman from Texas interviewed by Robin Lustig this morning said that of 2000 e-mails he received before the vote, they ran 99 to 1 against the bill. Even after the stock market fell 777 points and the e-mail was shut off because it was overloaded, phone calls ran about 75% against, 25% for of about 500 calls his office took.
The bill was cobbled together at first overnight and then when that 3 page horror was seen as DOA, into a 108 page badly flawed piece of legislation. Among the flaws the Democratic Representatives pointed out was that in places it appeared to restrict Paulsen's actions, it didn't really, he could have bought anything and everything with the money. All of the risk was assumed by the taxpayer, none by Wall Street. They felt it should be the other way around. It did nothing for homeowners at risk of losing their homes. It did not assure that the banks would start making credit available again. If it doesn't work, Congress will have wasted 700 billion of taxpayer money it doesn't have and and its credibility and there won't be another chance for a backup plan. They recommended at least several things be included, they want immediate increased regulation and they want far more oversight. I think they'd like to see Paulsen fired immediately. They said he was incompetent and had been wrong on every decision he'd made. They said he'd told him two weeks ago the economy was fine and that there would be no serious problems. They also want an immediate increase in FDIC insurance to a limit of up to 1 milllion dollars per depositer per bank and a change in the mark to market accounting rules in the way the assets are valued. 93 Democrats voted against the bill. They are not going to roll over and play dead for anyone including Obama, Pelosi, the President, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, not anyone. They are not Parlimentarians. They have minds and they are elected to use them.
"I grew so rich that I was sent by a pocket borough into Parliament
I always voted at my party's call and I never thought of thinking for myself at all
He never thought of thinking for himself at all.
I thought so little they rewarded me by making me the ruler of the Queen's Navy
He thought so little they rewarded he by making him the ruler of the Queen's Navy."
HMS Pinafore, Gilbert and Sullivan
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#55 - MarcusAureliusII
Isn't the problem here that everyone has a private agenda? Bush is trying to look statesman like but he also has to try to salvage some sort of legacy. Paulson knows that Wall St was a big part of the problem but he can't turn on them because he will be going back there come February. McCain opposes the bail out deep down but he is afraid to say so because it will tear the Republican Party asunder. Obama would like it to be far tougher but dare not say so for fear of being branded liberal or, worse still, socialist. The rest of the world - or so it seems - is screaming for action on the 'you broke it, you fix it' principle. Of course members of Congress are not happy. Many have real and proper reservations about the bill, take seriously their responsibilities to their constituents and are following their consciences. They should, despite the howls of protest, take some pride in that. It was what they were elected to do. But only a fool would imagine that they do not have one eye on the fact that a good few of them are up for reelection in the coming weeks.
Democracy may be the best system of government we have come up with but, to paraphrase Churchill, it is not perfect. The voices now being so eloquently being raised were strangely silent when millions of people both sides of the Atlantic were borrowing way beyond their means and being encouraged to do so? There is an awful lot of wisdom with the benefit of hindsight here.
The question that your post raises about the nature of democracy is what happens if 'the people' are wrong? Their representatives are then torn between their duty to their constituents and the greater good. Are they elected to represent the interests of a fairly narrow constituency or to represent the national interest and where do they go when these interests conflict?
It is clearly not in the national interest to carry on without a concerted plan. The Treasury is proceeding on a case by case basis apparently with minimal oversight and more or less unfettered discretion. This surely cannot be right given that, one way or the other, the taxpayer is going to end up picking up the tab. All the time the administration and the legislature is battling over a formula they can sell to the people, the American model of free market economics is becoming less credible. Whatever this congress may have been elected for, it surely was not to allow great nation to slip into irreversible decline. This can probably still be avoided but the perception that the administration and the legislature can simply not agree on what to do is extremely damaging.
Nothing will help to restore confidence more quickly than the perception that something is being done. Acting in haste and repenting at leisure may not be the best course but it beats inaction hands down.
_______________
How many people read all 120 pages of the Bill? As a proportion, about the same as have read the Treaty of Lisbon. Using a crisis to an excuse to criticise others in unworthy of this debate.
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polyvodka, did you stop to think that there may have been those who voted for it for purely political reasons too?
Why do I attack Europe so much? There are a lot of stupid places run by a lot of stupid people in this world but IMO Europe is in a class by itself. Europe is so stupid it doesn't even know just how stupid it really is. Perhaps if it ever woke up to it, it might change for the better. Nah, on second thought that just isn't going to happen.
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While of course such a massive step as these proposed bailouts, means it's right and proper that the elected political class both debates and casts a magnifying glass over the whole plan, what if they are swayed by a delusion?
A delusion that this plan, is bringing 'socialism' into the US.
A first sight it looks like it, and I totally see why both they and the ordinary citizen is very angry at these arrogant 'Masters Of The Universe' having feet of clay.
But, the delusion operating here is that the government does not prop up and interfere in the economy now.
Farm subsidies - a huge amount, FMS (tax dollar funded military sales), Wal-Mart (effectively China's store in the US), some 1 billion dollars in subsidies-nearly all it's distribution centers and retail units from state government, via free land, Governors Opportunity Fund-intended to protect communities this company helps to destroy and all manner of others.
Advanced Technology Programmes intended to seed new tech, all too often really ends up as subsidies for current products of huge giants like GE, Monsanto, GM.
And many more, don't believe me? Well the conservative Cato Institute has done a lot of research into this.
Ironic, all this corporate welfare, for the richest and most powerful, when some in the US want to privatise social welfare, which is for those at the bottom of the pile.
One of a diminishing manufacturing sectors the US is still all powerful in, the military/aerospace industrial complex, has been sucking at the federal teat for 6 decades.
Now I don't think the US is wrong to say, support it's strategic sectors, like some of the military/aerospace complex, there are sound economic and security reasons to.
(Though the probably ineffective and certainly pointless 'Missile Defence' system was a massive piece of corporate welfare, pushed by Republicans for years).
But many outside get rather fed up when the US chides those others, including close allies, who do the same-on a much smaller scale.
This brings us back to the 'no state interference' delusion held by many on Capitol Hill.
Perhaps the objection from some there is that this time, their local pork projects, those who fund them, are not getting the gravy.
Who now owns much of Americas debt - China.
Who quietly pushed for the bail out of Freddie and Fannie - China.
Capitalism is not dead.
America is not finished.
Corporate welfare mixed with encouraging a free for all in some areas, like the financial markets, is over.
The last 15 or so years has seen the lone Hyperpower resting on both military strength and a moral 'authority' that deemed free markets (when it suits), of a distinct US flavour,as the only legitimate way to have an economy.
This too, is or soon will be, over.
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jSlayerUK, I hate to break it to you, but the UK
is even more vulnerable to a financial sector
meltdown than the US, because it is more
heavily concentrated in that sector.
You're just about a year behind us.
But, hopefully, the wave will be dampened out
somewhat when it gets to you, and not amplified.
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Justin,
I agreed with what you had to say about the Jewish holidays. But then I thought: regardless of whether they should stay away or not, isn't it right that congress not convene itself when 43 of its members might not turn up? After all, that could easily have swung yesterday's vote.
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@MarcusAurelliusII no. 63
Oh I could laugh if it was not so sad.
Such bland generalisations without an argument. So I will give you some...
The UK has lots of problems mainly divided into a sharp cultural rift between town and city
French politics often relies heavily on interest groups which can skew policy dramatically
Germany is having difficulties incorporating the former East into the national wealth as people from West won't move there to work
Italy suffers from an unbelievabe level of state corruption epitomised by the current presidential incumbent.
Spain has a very polarised political systemwhich still seems based on family ties.
Austria is beginning to have another affair with the far right.
Serbia has elected a leader who is in a powerful position at the moment but has a population very bitter about western acceptance of Kosovan independence.
Belarus has a stagnant ditaorship which is making teeny-weeny steps towards opening up towards the rest of Europe.
Russia upset at NATO for acknowledging Kosovo... it's expansionist tendency towards the East and the obvious missile defense system that is aimed right at them.
Poland growing but like most former Eastern Bloc countries has some issues with race. Scared of Russia.
I could go on but it is not the point. Europe has it's problems but people know about them. I love Europe and am proud to be European. I grew up in Southern (not South) Africa which I love too.
Europe has cities you can walk around freely, beautiful heritage and some stunning scenery. I love the fact that people in Europe travel more and more Experiencing the difference.
The reason we are interested in your election is that it will have a profound effect on us too. For most Europeans the right wing of the Republican Party are reasonably unpalatable because after centuries of social dischord and unheavel it was decided in Most Western European Countries that government had social responsibilities to the weakest. Even for the christian parties when tend to be centre right (basically alligned in a similar sphere to the bulk of democrats) pure unfettered capitalism is too difficult to square with their religeous conviction (except in Spain).
Social Democracy is in no way socialist as the many on the right of your party would put it. My Uncle who is a communist, nice bloke disagree with his views, would have kittens if any european state was described as socialist.
I would like to know exactly what it is about Europe you seem to find so offensive.
Is it just that few on the continent would hold your views?
That we are by and large Secular?
That we take pride in our diversity and Heritage?
That we believe in small standing armies and not spending all our budgets on defense?
That some Europeans have incredibly anti-US sentiments, normally taking on a conescending air?
Pray tell
Empty
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Justin, if you're referring to the Americans as dominant cave dwellers, i beg to differ. The British will be the dominant cavers! They had the sense to accept the role of declining empire in the early 1900s, and settled down to be one of the most respected nations on earth. We Americans don't know what to do when things don't turn out the way we wanted. Usually, we yell at the government, but it's kinda broken right now.
I like the sensible article. Clearly, this is not a life-and-death situation. Even our newly jobless and homeless are usually much better off than many thousands of working individuals in other, developing countries.
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Threnodio,
I disagree.Inaction is theway of the Sage
Shanthi
ed
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Sonic,
As we were warned in 1961 (watch for a certain "star" cameo)Peace ()
ed
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G&R (65),
The UK housing boom quadrupled prices while the US one only tripled. Our levels of personal indebtedness are higher as a proportion of income, our levels of savings are even lower thyan US.....
What? We worry?
;-)
ed
But at least we've got quite good health care free at the point of need. I can personally vouch for it.
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The Way of the Sage
Peace ()ed
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#71, Ed, I hope for the best for you guys...
I was over there in the 70's and thought it was
a great place, wonderful people.
But in this crazy world, some lune in DC or
Moscow can screw everything up for a lot of folks.
Personally, I think that the cure for all of this
would be for all of us to have little buttons
at home so that when our fearless leadership
tells us something that we don't like, we can
each give him a little electric shock.
Of course, a hundred million of these opinions
would combine to something between an
arc welder and a functioning fusion reactor.
Perhaps that's the solution to our energy
crisis.
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flyingonempty #67
"Such bland generalizations without an argument."
I don't need an argument. Well over a hundred million Europeans made my argument for me....by not only agreeing with it but by doing something about it. They left...forever....to come here. My grandparents were among them. BBC reported that 10% of the indigenous population of Britain has emigrated. From the number of British accents I hear here in America, it seems to me they all must have sooner or later come to live here. I've met more than a few in my time and they all tell me the same thing. They don't want to go back. Jacksforge doesn't want to go back but he won't admit it. He looks for any excuse he can find to pretend it isn't true. And not all of them left in the last 10 years either. Many of those British I've met left decades ago. They come from everywhere, all over Europe.
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#74: "Well over a hundred million Europeans made my argument for me....by not only agreeing with it but by doing something about it. They left...forever...to come here."
This, plus your elegant quotation from Victorian light operetta, appears to illuminate your argument. You appear to be contrasting the way Europe was run in the nineteenth century with how the USA was. On that comparison, I agree: the USA has a strong case.
However, perhaps a more relevant observation would be: how many Europeans are queueing up to seek their fortunes in the USA right at this moment?
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Dear flyingonempty:
Don't waste your time. We've all tried, but Marcus Aurelius just repeats the same thing over and over again. And he thinks we already live in caves.
Or maybe it was just old falling-down houses with no plumbing. Something like that. I don't pay attention any more.
Like a lot of the British expats who "left decades ago" he's living in the past. Just look at the number of times Japan, Germany, Russia and WW2 get mentioned. They all seem to think it was only America that ever got into the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
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I was tempted to add that a lot of the US expats I meet in Europe don't want to go back either. But then I thought: will Marcus Aurelius want their names and addresses, to hunt them down as apostates?
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Everytime an American drags up WW2 (which is so, so often) I'm reminded of Uncle Albert in Only Fools and Horses (look it up)..........
"During the War........"
And the effect it has on the listener is much the same.
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Justin. that rnc advert on the last link you provided. Is that real?
or some april fools joke late and not funny.
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78: I think it must be because it's one of the few they can claim to have won after the War of Independence.
Or they're all old enough to have been in it.
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76, british-ish.
I think you should be kind to Marcus (staphylococcus aureus). He is very old and his short-term memory appears to be failing. That is probably why he is stuck in the mid-20th century.
Actually Staphy is to be admired. He lives alone and refuses to hire anyone to help him, and muddles along on his own. The rumour that no one will work for him is unfounded.
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ma how the hell would I be able to afford to move my pet to the UK?
giving out checks usless rich yank
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Actually Staphy is to be admired. He lives alone and refuses to hire anyone to help him, and muddles along on his own. The rumour that no one will work for him is unfounded.
---------------
marble he claims to have several people that do his lawn.
but probably cheeps them on the pay.
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Allmymarbles:
Why should I? When he gets infantile by mauling my pseudonym for the sake of a cheap jibe?
I'll buy him a one-way flight to Oregon. That's where it's legal to put them down when they get like that, isn't it?
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#60
But the British Museum did get the Grand Tipoo's clockwork Tiger. So that was worthwhile then.
On the real plus side, Arthur Wellesley cut his teeth fighting the Tippoo Sultan alongside the Nizzam of Hyderabad's troops. He lost his only action, a 3 company fight at night outside Seringapatam, to mercenary French, deserter and Indian forces. He never fought at night again.
But he also never lost again. Napoleon referred to him in Belgium as the 'Sepoy General'. Ironically Napoleon lost only one action. But his was at the wrong end of a career.
Historian Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sam, what happened to the tiger? I don't remember seeing it in the BM. Don't tell me it's another imperial heritage we went and lost?
Shocking, the things that happen when empires collapse. isn't it?
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test
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87, british-ish.
I had a good one for you about Staphy, but the moderators punished me. I have no idea why. Everything I said had been said before. It's the middle of the night for them so maybe they are in a bad mood. I will get back to you tomorrow.
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Well, they let mine through . . . I should be ashamed of myself really . . .
(It's actually early morning, just before dawn so it's been a long night. Assuming the mods are in London at all, of course. Or even somewhere in
Britain. For all we know, they might actually be in Bangalore.)
Anyway, our subject seems to have disappeared. Was it something we said?
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Not much is getting through the pre-moderation this time for some reason.
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90, british-ish.
Usually they let everything from Staphy through because he is a troll. Either they were sleepy when they punished me, or there are new moderators who don't get the humor.
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As an American to my fellow Europeans across the Atlantic, you must realize why MAII writes what he writes. He writes not because he hates all things European, otherwise he would not participate in this blog. I participate because I like to read what yall have to say, even if I dislike or am offended by what yall say at times. He writes what he does because he and others are frustrated. He is frustrated because for some reason many Europeans have always viewed America with contempt or outright disdain regardless of what century it is or what America does.
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It is a part of our national psyche, if you will, to be that shining city on the hill, that successful and respected former colony surpassing the motherland. The problem is that many Americans such as MAII feel that Europeans seem to forever see America as that Puritan theocracy, that place of backwardness, low culture, and violence.
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Americans see our victories around the world and in Europe over time as a validation of our progress, but we never quit feel accepted, thanked, or recognized enough by Europe. Realize that Americans do not openly ask for thanks, but we are disappointed and sometimes emotionally hurt when we do not receive it in kind because we remember. We remember having no representation in Parliament and having to wear raccoon skins to meet with the King of France; we remember impressments and Indian raids; we remember how things were and we work tirelessly to make sure that we are never again in such a position.
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There are two analogies that I find useful; early America was a son who worked hard, but found only disdain and wisecracks from his father, Europe. Today's America is a mature adult who has achieved measured success, but receives only contempt and half hearted recognition from his elderly father.
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Truthfully, I and many Americans are fond of Europe and our ancestry, but we are a nation scarred by the past and encourage by our own ability to overcome. America's, including MAII's, scar hurts when Europeans belittle us as being ignorant or intolerant, etc. over mere political differences.
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97, Bienvenue.
Staphy is kidding you all. Don't you guys get it?
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"But overall, if we all end up living in caves and bartering for our lunch, I know which group of cave-dwellers will soon come to dominate the world again."
Mr. Webb, are you really going to deny the tidal flow of our multi-millennial history - with its rise and fall of countless 'superpowers' - and suggest one nation will retain an overwhelming primacy for the remainder of said history?
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#87
British-ish,
It is rarely on display. It has a clockwork tiger growling and mauling a recoat who sort of struggles a bit. I think there are some pics of it in Simon Schama's 'History of Britain. Which reminds me:
- GOBBBDMABWGWKMTSPFO likes Simon Schama
Historian Sam
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BienvenueEnLousiana #93
I don't know what gets me more disgusted, people who misquote me and then argue against words I didn't say or people who ascribe motives for what I say trying to apoplogize for them. I say what I say because that is what I think. I say what I say about Europe because I think it is a small mean stupid irrational hateful jealous place with a vastly overblown sense of its own self importance, a complete fiction about its history, and an inherent contempt for everyone else in the world especially the US. This comes not only from having read about it both as part of my formal education and what I read and see in books, documentaries, and all of the Europeans I've met in my life but from having lived there myself for a couple of years. It was surprising to me as an American living in France that many French not only viewed and treated Americans with contempt, they didn't treat each other much better.
For over 100 years, American presidents heeded President Washington's sage words of warning and stayed out of European affairs but that worst of all American Presidents, yes far worse than whatever you can say about Bush, Reagan, Carter or whomever else you don't like, Woodrow Wilson got American involved in WWI and Americans have paid a heavy price for it ever since. IMO, among the best things America can do for itself is to disengage completely from Europe except for bilateral trade agreements and continue to set its own course for itself independently of what the rest of the world wants, thinks, does, or says. Europe has been a lead weight around America's neck since 1917 and its is time to cast it off and move on. Europe is on a collision course for a lot of trouble, most of its own doing. I don't want to be any part of it when its many inherent contradictions wind up in more catastrophies. Even Barack Obama said early on in his campaign that there is a ticking demographic time bomb in Europe. That's only one of lots of them.
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that toronto star article was indeed poor. must really annoy you to see an article compiled of articles from a bunch of nobodies.poorly written.
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Tamrhind,
I don't think Justin was referring to any "Nation State"....A tendency to succeedSalaam/Shalom
ed
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MA II # 101
"IMO, among the best things America can do for itself is to disengage completely from Europe except for bilateral trade agreements and continue to set its own course for itself independently of what the rest of the world wants, thinks, does, or says. Europe has been a lead weight around America's neck since 1917 and its is time to cast it off and move on. Europe is on a collision course for a lot of trouble, most of its own doing. I don't want to be any part of it when its many inherent contradictions wind up in more catastrophies"
You never spoke a truer word Marcus, except for the fact that you appear to be talking about America and the wishes of its present government.
Disengage completely from the electorate?
Sets its own independent course?
Ignore what its electorate wants, thinks, does, or says?.
The electorate is a lead weight around governments neck?
Time to cast it off and move on.?
Trouble, most of its own doing.?
Winds up in more catastrophies?
On the nose with every word!
Come back to France mon petit choux.
We have a new white jacket waiting, just like your old one.
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ref #67
Well since you asked and I think this reflects a vocal minority in Europe.
1. Far greater intolerance for diverse views
in religion and politics.
2. Latents anti Israeli and U.S sentiment in the European press, union and universities.
3. condescenion towards U.S citizens
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Doug
2
Democracy requires involvement, and 'We the People' were absent the last few years.
we're back
-----------------------
Nice to meet you
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104 is that one of those highly fashionable belted jackets?
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101 Mostly erronious
"I don't know what gets me more disgusted, people who misquote me and then argue against words I didn't say or people who ascribe motives for what I say trying to apoplogize for them. I say what I say because that is what I think."
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you do it every time so you must be disgusted with yourself.
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" I think it is a small mean stupid irrational hateful jealous place with a vastly overblown sense of its own self importance, a complete fiction about its history, and an inherent contempt for everyone else in the world especially the US."
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again are you talking of yourself here?
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I've met in my life but from having lived there myself for a couple of years
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Dweeb you lived in France not EUROPE.
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"It was surprising to me as an American living in France that many French not only viewed and treated Americans with contempt, they didn't treat each other much better. "
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Again your self analysis out performs your analysis of any other topic.
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96. At 07:03am on 01 Oct 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
There are two analogies that I find useful; early America was a son who worked hard, but found only disdain and wisecracks from his father, Europe. Today's America is a mature adult who has achieved measured success, but receives only contempt and half hearted recognition from his elderly father.
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Or a spoilt brat who ignored his fathers sagely advice in order to wreck the house he lived in trash the grounds, mess up the general neigbourhood (and the next county), pick some really really bad friends and then welsh on their debt.
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markingtime #104
"Disengage completely from the electorate?"
We seem to have a rash of that among our presidents and Congress lately. President Clinton was so busy didling with Monica Lewdsky and Congress was so preoccupied with getting rid of him before his term of office ended that they overlooked a few minor details like al Qaeda. President Bush the first didn't know what a pair of socks would cost at Walmart because he'd never had to shop for anything himself in his life.
If President W Bush hadn't waited 60 hours to respond to huricaine Katrina, the Republicans would still be in control of both houses of Congress. Instead he was playing golf on Hiltonhead Island or someplace telling the world what a great job Michael Brown was doing when it was plain to everyone else he wasn't doing a damned thing. What a difference 2 1/2 days makes.
Funny how people worry about all the wrong things. Two weeks ago, the media and the public were discussing what Obama meant when he talked about putting lipstick on a pig. Does anyone remember back that far? Does anyone remember how the media, BBC included hung on every word, phrase, inflection of voice in the candidates in the first debates a year ago? Can anyone remember even one thing any one of them said then? Did it even matter?
In less than four months, we will replace this disengaged government with a new disengaged government, just as incompetent, just as reckless, just as oblivious to the real problems and unable to deal with them as the current government has been. How nice to know that over the last 2 1/3 centuries, the United States of America has proven time and again it can survive practically any form of government its electorate can dredge up from the political muck and install.
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americans are the perfect example of why democracy is a liabillity
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Come on Justin - do some research - how many people in Congress are Jewish - only 11 and of those how many are orthodox ie really are unable to work on this day? Why is it un acceptable to say that at the very least the remainder get their overpaid behinds into work that day and try an find a compromise that they could explain to their Jewish colleagues the day they return. It is a complete embarrasment to see the remaining 420 odd member swanning off for Rosh Hashanah. Come on people are losing their future lively hood !! Tell them to get back to work. How can we hope to solve a crisis of this magnitude with this bunch of work shy kids running the show.
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Marcus, # 110
Despite your disenchantment with Europe, we both agree about survival.
This time around we are hoping we have built up enough antibodies with your previous 2 governments and can stomach whatever dregs from the " political muck" you decide upon.
Praying that Obama is the correct medicine for us both and not a placebo, because another bout of Middle Eastern flu could lay us all permanently low.
Mccain is more the chemo-therapy approach.
Kill and be cured- or would it be -cure and be killed?
Although you dislike everything outside the boundaries of the USA, do not forget that the *whole* world is the patient!
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Every country has its good and bad points. Most, if not all countries have shameful histories also. It's funny, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations is my "bible", and last night before bed, feeling so down about the situation we've gotten ourselves into, I opened the book to a random page and read the first quote I saw, and no joke this was it. "Every man has a lurking wish to appear considerable in his native place". Then down the page I read "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". These quotes were written by Samuel Johnson in the mid 1700's.
Humility is a wonderful characteristic to have, if you truely feel it.
In the end I think those "evildoers" that live in caves making do w/ next to nothing, could very well kick our ass. We have too much to lose, and are sooo full of ourselves, as to think our way is the only way.
By the way that quote on patriotism is for John McCain. Though he served our country, yes, you should never use patriotism as a mechanism to gain affection or divide people. It is not a prerequisite for the President of the U.S. to have been a war hero, or even serve in the military. People show patriotism in different ways.
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harrino (#112), Rosh Hashana is a regularly scheduled recess for the House of Representatives. There was no special decision made to go into recess.
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#93. BienvenueEnLouisiana: "many Europeans have always viewed America with contempt or outright disdain regardless of what century it is or what America does."
And similarly 'many Americans' view Europe in the exactly same way.
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Marcus #101
Marcus, please save the vitriol for someone else. "I don't know what gets me more disgusted, people who misquote me and then argue against words I didn't say or people who ascribe motives for what I say trying to apologize for them. I say what I say because that is what I think." Sound familiar, Marcus. I was neither quoting you, nor arguing against your words, neither was I apologizing for what you have said. I was trying to enlighten Europeans on the reasons why many Americans have always felt slighted or made to feel less than worthy by Europeans no matter what we do as part of a history lesson. You may argue where we should go from there, but that was not the subject of my posts.
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in reference to #116
The key is in the word "view" isn't it? Notice the present tense only. Europe as a whole should be familiar with the term reciprocity right?
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Jacksforge #109
Or it could be considered Child neglect.
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test
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#144 middlecroony..
You are a thoroughly good type....
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british-ish.
mostly erroneous
staphylococcus aureus
mucus
So don't be upset at what he calls you. Think of a comeback.
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119. At 7:35pm on 01 Oct 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
Jacksforge #109
Or it could be considered Child neglect.
yea it could be .
but it could also be that the child is an ungrateful nasty piece of.
like MA is about his parents.
spoilt is neglect
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Justin:
?Never on a Sunday?
Could u answer that question, that you posed....
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