Mind-boggling contempt for Bush
This is now a political as well as an economic crisis. President Bush has lost authority to an extent that must be unprecedented in modern times. Even lame duck presidents normally retain a modicum of respect in their own homes. His party - in particular House Republicans - are treating him with a contempt that boggles the mind. To think we lazily refer to the US president as the most powerful man in the world. He is as powerful as the mayor of Wasilla right now. Credit to the House Republicans: they fight for what they believe in. But John McCain - what does he stand for? Does he back the party rebels or the president - he won't say. As things stand, he stands for not debating.
I stand to be corrected (as usual) but I cannot believe the American people are sitting back and saying, "Good show, John."
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I think the dissemination of information and opinions over the web has contributed to the changes we have seen. It's evident senators and representatives are being deluged with e-mails from their constituency sharing their emotions and their concerns. I can only imagine all on the hill are experiening severe heart burn at this point.
As we Americans lose our tolerance, we are also losing some of our dignity.
b
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Well, McCain is behind and has taken out his bag of tricks. First Palin. That does not seem to be working out so well. Her interview with Couric was embarrassing. Also, it might be petty, but we do expect political figures to be able to pronounce simple words. Palin has trouble with "verbiage," "nuclear," and who knows what else.
His second attempt to derail Obama is his call to stop the campaign. That is a ridiculous ploy.
At to where John McCain stands, we have only to look at the people he owes. So I for one expect a watered-down Bush, that is presuming McCain is elected and does not die in office.
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I watched Senator Dodd's and Representative Frank's explanation on C-Span tonight of the days events. It seems to me that we have part of the Republican party in open revolt against more than the President. The Senate Republicans and Democrats, the Administration incluiding the White House, Paulsen, and the Fed were hammering out a plan which may lead to an agreement. But the House Republicans refused to participate and instead submitted a one page scheme for an insurance plan Paulsen already said wouldn't work. We'll see tomorrow if Bush, McCain and the rest of the government can bring these House Republicans back into the process. In the meantime, the markets may be rattled by the prospect of a long drawn out debate or the worst of all cases, the process falling apart completely. This is not likely IMO.
Mr. Webb, your profound lack of understanding of American government and politics becomes more and more manifest with each posting. The Congress of the United States is NOT the House of Commons. The President's party members in Congress are not a rubber stamp for his policies. Each branch jealously guards its own power in a system built around a separation of powers. This is not a lack of respect for the President, it is a disagreement with the process and with the kind of agreement being hammered out. The Constitution deliberately will result in government paralysis before it allows the tyranny of so much money being put in so few hands without a general agreement in Congress that it is the best course of action.
We are being told by many members of Congress that based on what they are hearing from their constituents, right now the American people are very angry that the government is planning to bail out Wall Street from its own folly. This is seen as a socialist tyranny of the worst kind. Even within the group who are working towards an agreement there are still major hurdles to overcome including how homeowners will receive protection from bankrupcy and how executives of failed financial institutions will be denied large windfalls at taxpayer expense. We'll see what the House Republicans have to say from their perspective tomorrow but until then, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. This is not out of disrespect, it is part of the disagreement over a much larger issue than one man.
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To Justin Webb
Bush should be grateful that we still do not tar and feather unpopular politicians. I think that if people could vote tomorrow they would be very happy to send him back to Texas on Monday.
As for McCain, what I have seen is that over 75% of the voters want him to debate on Friday. I do not think he has any more excuse for not being present. He is in trouble, hence the drama about being needed in Washington.
I have concern about McCain's health, he really is not looking well.
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I'm not sure if McCain can do anything right. He's pretty much clueless on the economy, and the guy is taking a timeout here. What is he thinking???
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Justin, I will start with your premise about who? Oh yeah, the one who is still our President until January 20th of next year. (Unless we have a coup, I just reread the book Seven Days in May and saw the movie again).
I have been fascinated by this election, the most important American election in my lifetime.
Justin, I think I am having a little too much excitement. If you brought this to a publisher as a novel, they would look at you and either laugh or decide you need a shrink.
This election has more twists and turns than a roller coaster. I am getting dizzy!:-)
I never thought I would see the day when I would respect Joe Biden the most. Maybe I'll write in my cat, my little buddy Yerbie. Now there would be some humor. You have Barack Obummer, who is like the Woody Allen movie Zelig, all things to all people. You have my Senator, John McCain, a man I was raised to respect imploding. You have Sarah Palin, who is finding ways to rival Monty Python member and namesake Michael Palin for comedy.
Only one problem, y'all. This is only funny, not as a "ha ha," but as I am laughing to keep from crying, because I left the oil can at home and I will rust.;-) It is like being force marched to the edge of a cliff, ordered not to turn around and hoping no one will push you. We really ARE heading for the unknown on this one.
Aw shucks Justin, what are all those British oddsmakers saying 'bout our election now?
We are supposed to have a debate at Ole Miss on Foreign Policy tomorrow night, but one of the teams may forfeit.
Senator McCain has to land some blows. It is the Fifteenth Round of the Heavyweight Boxing title. McCain has to pretend he is Lennox Lewis, down on points to Mike Tyson. Senator Obama may be eloquent, but McCain has to show some sparring skills. First, he needs to show up. On second thought, he might do better to call Governor Palin off the bench. Playing to the audience is important here, no matter how good a debater Senator Obama is and whether people like it or not, style and marketing DO count here.
Again, this election is simple for me. Neither candidate is up to the task. I am still voting for the one who will mess with my life least.
Hunkering down in my beloved Sonoran Desert really is looking better all the time.
Maybe I will just hang the "Don't Tread on Me," flag out...
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*A week is a long time in politics*
1. First, I urge those with a voting preference mirroring mine for this election to tread diligently and with magnanimity. At the 39 day point there are still legion twists and turns and cats to come out of this fiscal bag.
2. On accountability and responsibility for what has happened. The timing of this, the unfolding physical realities and worry for ordinary people on Main Street will take care of this. No hiding place.
3. On the future well being of the USA and its people, I firmly believe the reactions and unfolding workings of a core of cross party congressional leaders will deliver the optimum solution for the nation. Much safer in the hands of this collective than one man - embarrassing or not. Prudence and experience will prevail and whilst H Paulson can take a tad of credit for sparking action (his job), his package will not be the one implemented.
4. On Senator McCain, as per my *touch paper* comment after the GOP convention, my waters tell me all those cracks in the ceiling, that have been slowly widening akin to watching grass grow, are going to bring the whole lot tumbling down.
5. Against the backdrop at 2. above, the need is to avoid falling into the trap of outloading unecessary personal vitriol and let the core issues, fast polarising nominee stances and the debates lead the way.
Today? I am going for a nice walk later today to enjoy beautiful Autumnal colours; focus on work and domestic matters and enjoy a precious day of a finite life. Why not join me!
Bill
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Can someone please explain to me how this blog adheres to BBC guidelines, specifically the one which says:
"...our journalists and presenters, including those in news and current affairs, may provide professional judgments but may not express personal opinions on matters of public policy or political or industrial controversy. Our audiences should not be able to tell from BBC programmes or other BBC output the personal views of our journalists and presenters on such matters."
I'm confused. Additionally, does Mr. Webb receive any of the license payers money for the privilege of using the BBC as a platform to promote his political views?
Any thoughtful answers on this subject would be much appreciated.
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By derailing President Bush's administration in this way the GOP derails the McCain campaign. By derailing the McCain campaign they also may prevent - for the forseeable future at least - the possibility of a President Palin. One imagines that, to many members of the GOP, more irksome still than a liberal Democrat in the top Executive spot would be 'the sort of person' who believes in and behaves as Palin does (think "killing the party"). Picking Palin was an obvious strategic blunder if the Republicans wanted to actually win.
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On the surface, yes, it looks like House Republicans are embarrassing Bush and McCain. However, I suspect that they are working together: McCain is the good cop, House Republicans are the bad cop, and Bush is the police commissioner.
They look like they're making it up as they go along, but the final solution they are trying to construct is that McCain should look like the hero. He's already starting to try and co-opt the
Obama needs to play this very carefully. While he sees through McCain's ploy, other Americans may not. He needs to keep reiterating his principles, first in Washington and then at the debate. And he needs to immediately criticize whatever final deal comes out, because McCain will do the same.
In reality, this is all an invented crisis. Yes, right now the price of risk is abnormal right now, but regulators have all the tools they need and the market would eventually right itself -- as has happened for decades. The real emergency is in the poll numbers. An Obama presidency is suddenly looking realistic -- it wasn't supposed to be this way.
I predict McCain will show up at the debate. He will simply gamble that Americans will forget what he and his campaign have said for the past week.
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At this point I would have to say that Bush is a non entity and not even worth talking about. Soon it will become clearly evident the true nature of this economic and human disaster which is now staring the world in the face. This so called Global Economy has at this point in time turned into a Global Disaster. We are now at the end game of Raganomics and the unbridled greed it fostered, it's not going to be a pretty picture for anyone on this planet.
Soon this New World Order of George Bush seniors' dream will turn into the Old World Nightmare of the turn of the century. They had the dustbowl, we have global warming. They had the stock market crash of 1929, we have the market meltdown of 2008. They had Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, World War II and the Holocaust. And all to soon I fear this world and all it's people will experience much, much worse.
New economic and military alliances are already taking shape. There is a huge power vacuum already beginning to form. Nations will rush headlong into this power void, some willingly and some not. Soon the wars will begin.
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8, Willy.
I think Justin Webb's choice of subjects are meant to be thought-provoking. Sometimes they don't pan out and people go off on tangents.
The subject of George Bush is hardly controversial. Fellow Republicans running for office or reelection try to pretend they don't know him. His performance has been so bad that it gives McCain underdog status.
George Bush can only be described in negatives. I can not think of any president in my lifetime who has been so vapid and foolish and inept.
I don't have much to say on this thread, because there is nothing much one can say about Bush. He is a stupid man trying to prove to the world that he is not stupid. He has obviously failed.
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This bailout is nothing short of mass theft by the bankers who seek to form and run the so called "New World Order" through control of the world's money supply and their political puppets who they will use to control the public through martial law measures in the event of mass protests/civil unrest. The real news is behind the scenes of this "bailout". It is no more than a criminal enterprise which has been planned for a very long time. It is time people woke up to reality and stopped being dumbed down by the mass media to accept anything their so called "government" tells them. When people finally accept that the 911 attacks were perpetrated by their own government (the evidence is out there) maybe they'll finally realise what's going on and stop acting like sheep being led by wolves.
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I listened to an American economist (credited as the man who devised the "Paulsen Plan") on the World Service this morning. He was perfectly clear that the scheme was simply an attempt "to get the patient off the operating table" and get regulation (which he said had to be created) of the kind of creative "financial products" that have caused the damage sorted later.
Interestingly, he spoke of much of this being caused by implementing ideologies that had little, if anything to do with economics. The point I'd like to make is that what appears to be going on in the legislature is the simplistic expression of ideologies. Like calling this bail-out "socialist tyranny".
In a situation like this, one would have imagined that members of the same party as the President would not be so open in revolt; their opposition, given the lack of a real alternative to the President's plan, surely does show disrespect at best, contempt at worst, as Justin says. Things were very different over the war in Iraq, weren't they? So, Mr Aurelius, I cannot be persuaded that this is a natural function of the American political structure. Nor that Justin is as ignorant of it as you suppose.
It looks to me more like ignorance and panic. There is, I gather, a secondary plan to provide a kind of fall-back insurance for mortgage holders with problems to be presented later, but this seems to both have been forgotten and ignored. in any case, wouldn't effectively subsidising houseowners now in negative equity, which is what I gather some 60 per cent of Americans want in preference to this bailout, a form of state socialistic tyranny in your terms?
How come these same Republicans didn't object to the nationalisation of Fanny and Freddy? Only, as so often, because Americans want to see someone punished for their own mass complaisance when it all goes sour. In the meantime, if something effective isn't done, if your Congress and President don't get a grip, your stocks, pensions and healthcare are going to take a battering, and a lot of people are going to lose their savings as more banks crash. The shotgun the administration has used twice now will run out of cartridges soon . . .
It is odd, isn't it, how the first cry of all those who claim to support unregulated laissez-faire free-enterprise capitalism is for money to help them out themselves? But while refusing to accept they must at some stage pay the state more taxes to pay for it? As I've pointed out before, this latest 700 billion is not going to come from the American taxpayer as both Democrats and Republicans are saying. It's going to be financed by yet more US government borrowing. From the Chinese, very likely . . .Unless, MAII, you would like to pay three times what you do now for your petrol?
I imagine, like me, the rest of the world is looking at this example of the "democratic process" in astonishment. Mind-boggled in fact. It's ridiculous to watch a drama become a crisis and then potentially a total catastrophe out of sheer ineptitude.
What a way to fight an election. Neither party and neither candidate is looking very creditable; they look incompetent, helpless and even childish. Gordon Brown, the German finance minister and Sarkozy have all been far cleare in the last couple of days about what is required than either Obama or McCain. Let alone the ludicrous Palin. But then, maybe we should not expect any better after Katrina, Afghanistan and Iraq . . .
The most powerful country in the world? the most powerful head of state? Both descriptions applied over this last week look derisory. I can almost hear the Russians and the Chinese laughing uncontrollably from London . . .The country that gave us the Wall Street Crash, the dot com bust and now this cheap pack of financial cards.
I think it is all over: who can take America seriously after this? Economically, a good part of the world will be looking to
China for the foreseeable future, though at the same time looking over their shoulders to see if there are any stealth bombers approaching, in case an American administration takes MAII's favoured way out of a crisis.
I can't help but think this is going to be one election that both candidates would lose if it were possible.
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"President Bush has lost authority . . . He is as powerful as the mayor of Wasilla right now."
The President, not the Mayor of Wasilla, can put his finger on the nuclear button. Sounds pretty powerful to me!!
Perhaps you mean moral authority, which is an entirely different matter, but which is not to be confused with raw power.
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Contempt for Bush, yes. Mindboggling, No.
Exactly why should contempt for this buffoon boggle any minds, except his own maybe.
Is he not the worst president in American history? As a Brit I admit I cant rattle off names of them all, but I would be interested to know if any have a worse record.
So - from a Limey who knows a fair bit of American history but by no means all - have there been worse presidents than Dubyah?
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It isn't yet a global disaster. It's not affected China or India, has it? It's mainly an American one still, global only in that US "bankers" did their damnedest to spread this particular piece of capitalist enterprise about so as presumably to lay off the risk on other people (countries) while they just took the profits. Only it doesn't seem to have worked out quite like that.
"New economic and military alliances are already taking shape. There is a huge power vacuum already beginning to form. Nations will rush headlong into this power void, some willingly and some not."
[ljbella]
Nothing new in that; the same process has been going on for thousands of years, if you go back in Egypt's history for example. It might only seem new to a country that became a nation state only a couple of hundred years ago.
But there is no "power vacuum" except in the American imagination. American power has been based mainly on either military or economic threats for the last century. The demise of that does not leave a vacuum. Just the same space countries had before, only possibly safer.
"Soon the wars will begin."
I hadn't realised wars had stopped. There was another only last month, wasn't there? And looking suspiciously US-inspired despite the denials. But then, no country says it backed a war that was lost, does it?
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16, Pluto.
James buchanan and Andrew Johnson. These would be true incompetents, not presidents who were disliked for some other reason. I would not add Nixon who got very bad press, but was in many ways brilliant and far-sighted.
Maybe someone can add to the list.
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# 8, #12
A blog is not reporting.
I woke up this morning with the perception that the NeoCons and other thieves were attempting one last clean-out of gullible Americans before heading for non-extradictable places.
But there are Congressmen who will wish to remain in the USA. It is these who must be sternly recalled their duty.
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16, Pluto.
The two presidents I mentioned were not worse than Bush Jr., merely just as bad.
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16. pluto61 wrote:
"So - from a Limey who knows a fair bit of American history but by no means all - have there been worse presidents than Dubyah?"
Oh Gawd yes! One Jimmy Carter for a starter. He has not improved since leaving office either.
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Have there been worse presidents?
Depends in what way "worse".
Warren Harding? (Except as far as I remember he didn't start any wars. Apart from being generally corrupt, he flogged the federal oil reserve at Teapot Dome. But then, both presidential candidates suggested doing the same sort of thing when the oil price went up, so presumably that would be thought OK now. I was surprised no-one drew the parallel though.)
I seem to recall the name Buchanan in this sort of connection, too, but for the moment I can't remember why. (It's a while since this Limey did American history too.) I'm sure people could come up with a couple more. I didn't think much of Teddy Roosevelt, either.
(No doubt some contributors here will come up with Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan, depending on their political stance, as they usually do, but we can ignore them, I think.)
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I live in India, and the financial crisis, though present, is not as bad as I expected. Only a couple of banks and investment agencies reported losses, and the stock market dipped somewhat, I expect it get back up, as Investment banking hasn't really taken off over here. The communist party is taking credit for this (!!!!), and if we take a look at the entire world's economies, they have all taken hits and losses, but it's nothing that is seriously irrepairable, except for the U.S. All because some thieves made some big time money and then cut and run. Now they want the government to bail them out. I don't think even $700 b is going to be enough. Eventually it looks like the government will be reduced to giving out handouts...
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#3 MarcusAureliusII Wrote
"This is seen as a socialist tyranny of the worst kind."
Oh dear MA11!! Justin might not understand completely understand US politics or your system but you clearly do not have a clue about socialism. No socialist would consider rescuing failed banks in any other way than nationalising them with no compensation to the owners and shareholders.
Your description of your political system makes me wonder how on earth you ever succeeded as a nation if making decisions is so difficult.
And, no, the Prime minister does not rule by executive fiat, his party can and frequently do remove him from power. Tony Blair did not walk he was pushed, Margaret Thatcher was kicked out by her own party.
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re: 14 british-ish
"How come these same Republicans didn't object to the nationalisation of Fanny and Freddy?"
The gov't received an equity stake in the companies and their assets when they were nationalized. The expectation is that there will be, over the long-term, minimal actual taxpayer cost.
The current plan does not give the gov't anything tangible in return except for the "junk securities" themselves. Given the inherent corruption and cronyism between gov't and Wall Street, the expectation is that the bail-out will result in overpaying for these securities, to the benefit of Wall Street and thereby sticking the taxpayers with the difference (and this on top of the certain inflationary pressures.)
And, yes, MA is absolutely correct in his comments about the political structure. The three branches are supposed to be co-equal: the Executive is not intended to be able to impose its will on the Congress. It is, however, tragic that (some of) the Legislative branch has developed a backbone much later in the Bush administration than it should have.
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The CIA refers to Bush as Charley (McCarthy) and Cheney as Edgar (Bergen), as in the puppet and his master. I love the bumpersticker that reads: Impeach the President, and his Little Dummy, too. The veil is lifting, and Americans are ready to see now that the attacks on 9/11 were self-inflicted, as in "false flag". Bush's brain damage is evident. Too much coke and booze have left him impaired. Two stolen elections. Let's see... oh, and the end of the American Empire. Idiot.
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You are being unfair. House members, Rep or Dem, have to think of their constituents. That's why they are putting on a show of strength "against" a President that is not up for re-election, either himself or his V.P. Eventually they will come around and vote for the scandalous bail-out plan. As for Pres. Bush, he still holds immense executive power right up to the last minute of his term when he will traditionally issue a few hundred pardons just like Pres. Clinton did.
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Allmymarbles at 2 said about Palin: "Her interview with Couric was embarrassing. Also, it might be petty, but we do expect political figures to be able to pronounce simple words. Palin has trouble with "verbiage," "nuclear," and who knows what else.
What concerns me is why people think that this will affect the vote for her and McCain. I remember the first time I saw George Bush debate and couldn't really believe that the American people would vote for him ahead of even John Kerry. Not because of his beliefs. Just because he came across as incompetent and fuzzy on pretty much everything.
So a serious question. Is there really any reason that the same cannot happen this time with Palin (and McCain)? Or have enough people seen the light? (Yeah, I know, I'll just have to wait and see like everybody else).
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What this episode shows is the importance of electing the right man to the White House. Elections do matter, the result can and does change history.
It cannot have passed unnoticed that, on the day when the President of the USA is engaged in vitriolic bickering on the future of the entire fabric of the western economy, the Peoples Republic of China launch their first manned space mission.
Could Bush's greatest achievement be to hand the moon to China?
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I always understood that Herbert Hoover was considered to be one of if not the worst US president. Please correct me if it is not the case
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Birdmanifesto said
"The veil is lifting, and Americans are ready to see now that the attacks on 9/11 were self-inflicted, as in "false flag"."
I couldn't agree more (see comment 13)
It's not only America seeing the myth of 911 imploding, this is happening worldwide. It is long overdue! People should take a step back from the mainstream media puppets, owned by corporations to perpetuate the lies and deceit of their puppet masters. The evidence is out there, do your own research, don't listen to the conspiracy theorists etc...DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! Your eyes will be opened to the real world we live in and what must be done to restore humanity, integrity and trust in the peoples of the world, no matter colour, creed or political beliefs. WE ARE THE HUMAN RACE. It's time ordinary people, myself included, united in righteous indignation at what is being perpetrated on us by our supposed learned political parties and stopped listening to the lies disguised as fact that are continually fed to us until vast swathes of the population actually see blatant falsehoods as reality. It's time to wake up!
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#24 Timothy
Agreed. Many people of a right wing persuasion throw around the word 'socialism' without really understanding what it's meant. This USD700Billion bailout of banks is not socialist - its Capitalist. Nationalisation is more of a socialist project which right wingers claim never worked (or works).
The fact that the US State has nationalised Fanny and Freddy Mac, and the insurer AIG is not picked up it seems. The fact that it's the best deal for the taxpayer it is therefore not seen as 'socialist'.
If the concern is for the taxpayer then nationalise all the lame duck banks, get the fed to guarantee it's funds, and when the storm passes, privatise the banks for a tidy sum for the taxpayer. Everyone is happy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
every day that passes it becomes more likely this deal will be torn apart by the impending elections.
voters are very ignorant about economics and finance, especially middle america republican voters. they see a mess, but they do not directly feel the pain yet that a complete financial meltdown will bring. they are angry about wall street greed and demand justice (which in simple terms equates to no bail out), without understanding the systemic consequences of that justice.
without the imminent elections, those house republicans would have the liberty of voting for what is best for the country and having plenty of time to explain to their constituents afterwards. but unfortunately this is not the case.
mccain is absolutely pivotal in this. if he decides he has better electoral chances by sinking the bailout and leading a simple-minded anti-wall street crusade, then WE ARE ALL DOOMED.
my hope in this is that mccain is not an idiot, and has gone to washington to see if the republicans are actually able to block the deal. in this optimistic version, he will come out against the package only if he knows it will pass anyway. let's see..
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#30, T1mOthy, the Bush administration is
in a class by itself.
We used to have an expression that "Every
Democrat gets us into a war and every
Republican gets us into a recession."
Which is Bush?
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>I seem to recall the name Buchanan in this sort of connection, too, but for the moment I can't remember why.
Buchanan immediately preceded Lincoln. The best that can be said of him is that on his watch the USA drifted to the brink of civil war despite his efforts.
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To think this is what it has come to. Shouting matches in the Whitehouse, Paulson litterally on his knees begging.
And this is supposed to be a crisis!
And to help turn crisis into farce one of the presidential candidates, who apparently means to be taken seriously, has not said if he is turing up to debate his opponent!
What next? Military coup? Bush imprisoning the congress?
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#32 dceilar, It is -in fact- the worst form of socialism, corporate socialism where the profits are privatised and the losses socialised. Combining socialism and capitalism in such a way is argueably worse than either system independently.
In fact, it has to be said that the government taking a share of a company it has given money -though on the surface 'socialist'- is actually the more capitalist option. The idea that the government should rescue a private company at taxpayer expense -without getting any recompense- is nonsense. The government, like any bank or other institution, should expect to get something back from its investment -in the form of a stake in the company.
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#8 WillyLawless
You've answered your own question by asking how this BLOG (emphasis added) adheres to BBC guidelines;
A blog is, by it's own nature, supposed to be thoughts, opinions, ruminations..... it is certainly not supposed to be "reporting" by any stretch of the imagination and therefore isn't bound by such strict guidelines.
If you were to read something on the main BBC website with a strong leaning one way or the other (many people already argue that you do), then I think you'd have some basis for a complaint.
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Bush is the worst president in the history of the United States.
He has:
Continued reading kids books that matched his intellect even after hearing on Sept 11 that the 1st plane had just hit the world trade centre.
Started two quagmire wars and occupations
of sovereign nations against international law resulting in the deaths of millions of people and on false accusations and lies
Then proclaimed "Mission Accomplised" in Iraq how long ago now?
Given massive tax cuts to his super rich pals
and raided social security and is planning to make you pay to bail out wall st.
In 8 years in office he has turned a massive economy with a surplus into a train wreck disaster with a massive defecit to the tune of trillions of dollars that you may never be able to pay back.
He has been at the helm while thousands and thousands of billions of dollars have been spent on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have not made you safer.
He has virtually torn up and rewritten your constitution to suit himself and his administration.
He has not lifted a finger or spent a dime on free health care for the American people of whom he swore to serve.
And when he's done, he will presidential pardon any criminal buddies he has, and will then fly away from the white house in a helicopter amazed that he actually got away with it all.
In my opinion, he and Dick Cheney at least should be sent to the Hague and charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And I think that he should be put on trial in the US for corruption and maybe even for treason.
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# 23
The 700 bllion is only part of the story.
The BBC Special last night came up with a total at least three times that amount!
The bailout being talked about refers only to paper believed WORTHLESS
watch the politicos talk around this.
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Sitting on the fence can be jolly uncomfortable after a while - I speak from experience..
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Sad day, say 8 years.Bail out for Bush......Dont think so! After all Bush you are the cause for this situation and many others. Starting with Iraq and ending with bringing down our nations economy.
The 700 bn should come out of your pocket not the taxes payers
Sad, Sad.........Leadership.
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On the former topic (you're going too fast, mr Webb)
# 120 Britis-ish
I'm afraid I have to 2nd most of this "mother of all posts", but if you read
# 122, Grrlie,
you'll understand that some folks have the true fighting spirit. Success to you!
Maybe USA will go down, but I think it will be up very soon again. That's why
many people still like this country, I guess. It will be a world power again, but not the only one.
# 125 British-ish
I think he may not be monitoring the situation, but he IS learning each minute more about the political world in crazy days. Whether he's going to make the right decisions after nov 4th is another question.
On several topics:
As for all the posts on Palin's interview at CBS: could it not simply be stage fright?
She's not as stupid as many do say, but neither ready to become a VP as well. Maybe she should use this experience by learning from it i.s.o. trying to give clever remarks.
If the Republicans lose, she could have a second try in 2012. But Americans don't go for 2nd attempts, do they?
On this topic:
So, now the Republicans block an agreement on the $ 0.7T because they want to help the taxpayers
(ENTERS Letterman: "What? WHAT?")
Which taxpayers...? Not the richest 1%, I guess. They spend every day 2 grand without noticing it.
The middle-class, then? If so, are true Republicans trying to throw the pirates over board?
That would be the greatest surprise in decades! But, wait a minute... don't the Americans have elections soon? Oh... (#10, RalphMa)
It's getting more interesting every day. Heck, I even woke up dreaming that the lights on Wall Str. faded out ;-)
Dutch.
PS You should have some mercy on Bush. He's probably having nightmares all the time.
And no, I'm not trying to be funny here, I'm really concerned about possible actions until January.
In Holland we have a saying: "A cat without a chance to escape makes strange jumps."
And now it's time for a nice autumnal walk, indeed.
(If only Wall Str. Workers and Congressmen felt some nature now and then, should we be in such a mess..?)
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#38 RealisticJimmy
Point taken. It is worth asking the question: How many times has 'socialism' saved Capitalism's bacon? 'Socialist' social policies saved Capitalism from social unrest during the Depression. The principle of the Welfare State defended Capitalism from the threat from within of Communism.
And, indeed planned economies were immune to the depression, so after WW2 the concept of the 'mixed' economy of state and private enterprises was utilised to produce growth.
Perhaps we need to transcend the dichotomy of capitalism and socialism?
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Respect is given to someone who earns it. President Bush has not earned any respect over the last four years. it's amazing that he had a 90% approval rating after 9/11 and now stands to go down as THE worst president in our history. He's like Hoover, Buchanan ,and Nixon rolled into one. Americans don't like him, don't trust him, and can't even bare to look him in the eye. His announcement the other evening was almost painful to watch.
The media has helped polarize the issue for many Americans -- politicians and congressional leaders included. A fair amount of media bias can be thrown in with that, too. But, our leader needs to rise above the fray to provide a calm, stabilizing presence who can guide this country along the leaders from other branches. Bush administration never gave oversight, advice, or a policy that was true. Now, as his cronies creep rewards, really hard-working leaders struggle to patch up this folly.
These are the dark times that will hopefully shape Americans and make us a better country. Hopefully, the next President will earn our respect.
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There is nothing new in US tax payers money being used to help the elite of US companies, and to help ensure that the rich get richer. The country deserves what it gets, it has a fear of discussing issues like poverty and inequality and refuses to look at the real issues behind the social problems.
The dogmatic support of the free market is hilarious, I heard an economist from Paulsen's previous employer state that the cause of the current problems were that the US model of economy was "unsustainable" but that the future looked bright for the world economy because the BRIC nations were following the US model which could only be good. The only winners of the current situation are banks and big business picking up bargains and having higher unemployment which equals paying lower wages. It is a dream situation for any capitalist and will mean far more of the state being "given" to private enterprise to ensure the total eradication of a safety net for anyone who is not a billionaire. What has happened is only a disaster for the poor, it is a wonderful opportunity for the wealthy to follow the model they have used in countless countries around the globe, most recently Iraq, Sri Lanka et al
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A timely reminder "Crisis? What crisis?"
Worth the effort.
xx
ed
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British-ish,
It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy." --Wendell Berry
;-)
ed
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For a foreigner and a complete outsider like me, the most mind-boggling in all this mess are the arguments used by the Republican rebels. They could say the plan is flawed, or that is too expensive, or that it lacks control. Instead what are their arguments? That the plan is "un-American" and "socialist". IMHO, if there ever was a time to put aside ideologies and bigotry, this is it.
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"The gov't received an equity stake in the companies [Fanny and Freddy] and their assets when they were nationalized. The expectation is that there will be, over the long-term, minimal actual taxpayer cost," writes Peterm99.
But I thought the problem was, and is, that many of the "assets" are houses, mortgaged by people who can't pay, and which are valued at much less than the mortgage. So how will this produce a return? If people don't pay, the house is sold for less than the loan; that's a loss.
The idea is reliant on people somehow doing in the future what they have not been able to do in the last few years: keep paying long term until the value of the "asset" gets back to what the loan was. And over that long term, the increase in value will have to be much more just to compensate for inflation. And that is assuming none of them are in locations that will deteriorate.
To produce a return on these might take fifty years; and in that time, the only way that can be achieved is to allow people who would otherwise be foreclosed to pay less and less . . .
I presume government actuaries must have done the sums, but we probably won't discover the extent of the losses for years. But that doesn't matter: it will be the problem of the next administration but two and publicising that now would get in the way of a Republican potentially being elected.
This is just cloud cuckoo land. Having equity in something that's worthless is, well, worthless. Just like taking on these "toxic" loans from the Wall Street brokers, investment houses and bankers. They are the same thing, aren't they?
If you don't "buy' them to prevent banks failing and people's savings disappearing, people will definitely end up homeless, since their houses will have to be sold from under them to amortise the debt.
This is the problem with just explaining things with slogans. This isn't bailing out just a few evil speculators on Wall Street as so many seem to be saying.
The flaw in the current plan of course is that the people who set this disaster up don't lose anything. In fact companies like Goldman Sachs were sharp enough a couple of days ago to make sure they might even make even more out of the deal by turning themselves into a "real" bank. Nice to see how Paulsen made sure his own company was going to carry on being profitable and paying bonuses this Christmas.
What the plan, any plan, is supposed to do is to stop millions of Americans ending up homeless, uninsured, pensionless and bankrupt.
That doesn't, however, appear to be explainable in any palatable way to voters by either party, it would frighten the electors too much; so it's not being said. The Republican insurance plan is smoke and mirrors; the cost would be just the same, since the value of the loans hasn't miraculously changed; it would just not be paid out in one fell swoop.
It's ridiculous to characterise an economic plan as "socialist" and trample on it on those grounds. You might as well refuse an interest-free loan to purchase your car with because that's "socialist" as the lender isn't making a good old-fashioned capitalist profit out of the loan.
Most of America seems this week to have lapsed into a kind of economic mental catatonia. It really is a pitiful spectacle.
I even heard one supposed expert today saying nothing should be done, leave it to the market, let 'em all go bankrupt, because after all America is still around after the crash of 28, the dust bowl, two world wars and the dot com crash . . . He obviously wasn't queuing at a soup kitchen in the thirties. America the state may have survived all those, but many of its people didn't, did they? Now that's capitalism in the raw for you. Actually, there's another word for a philosophy that so clearly puts a state before its people.
I really must go up to Highgate Cemetery and see if I can hear Karl Marx laughing . . .
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Mind boggling ? I disagree. bush has the worse approval rating of any president in history and will be infamous for the disatrous result of his 8 years. He hasn't any respect for months and months. I find it incredible that the scare tactics foisted on the American public is still being used by the gop campaign today. I guess the reasoning is that since it worked we can still use it. How could voters reelect such a patent liar, now we have another liar seeking election. There are too many similarities between bush and mccain to believe there will be anything different if the American electorate falls for this bs again. mccain even chose a running mate similar to george stupid,stupid, stupid both his choice and sp.
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...could this be the moment when the wheels start to come off the McCain band-wagon? I sincerely hope so...
Let's not forget what's at stake here. John McCain is 71. Average male life-expectancy in the US is currently 75. The president serves a four year term. As they are so fond of saying in America... do the math. If McCain gets elected then dies in office the unthinkable happens: President Pailin. The first female president of the USA. And the first president of the USA to seriously believe the Earth was created 5,000 years ago by a man with a beard. Now I have nothing against men with beards BUT... If McCain wins the race the only thing that stands between us and a President who doesn't believe in dinosaurs is the lonely beat of a 71 year old heart.
On this basis it's worth reading Webb's blog just to find out if it's safe to leave the bunker.
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Sorry Justin, but I think the ex-Mayor of Wasilla has more support at the present time than President Bush. The definition of lameduck takes a new meaning when applied to the Bush Administration, and for good reason. You can't tell the American public that everything is just fine in July and then turn around and tell us in September that our entire fiscal, economic and financial institutions are on the verge of collapse.
As for McCain, he is waiting to see which way the wind blows. On Tuesday he announced he was suspending his campaign and was not planning to participate in the foreign policy debate today because of the huge crisis we are facing, which he was apparently planning to tackle head on. Yesterday he insinuated the crisis may not be as bad as it seems, but neglected to elaborate on his position, and was not an active participant in the leadership discussions that took place in the White House. If the market drops precipitously today, credit dries up, and people panic McCain the chameleon and the House Republicans that support his ambiguous position will revert back to their earlier posture. Accepting responsibility does not seem to be one of McCain's strongest attributes.
As much as I dislike Bush/Cheney, they look like statesmen compared to McCain who is nothing more than an opportunist willing to do and say whatever it takes to get elected.
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Ref 53
"Let's not forget what's at stake here. John McCain is 71. Average male life-expectancy in the US is currently 75".
McCain is actually 72, and he has been fighting melanoma for years.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"56. At 12:26pm on 26 Sep 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
The assertion that what may be the complete rejection of the plan by House Republicans and disagreement about much of the rest of it by others is a sign of disrespect of the President including by his own party members reveals a profound lack of knowlege and understanding by Mr. Webb and is typical of BBC. Was the sense of the Senate vote 95-0 against Kyoto during the Clinton Administration a show of disrespect towards President Clinton himself? Of course not, it was a sign that his own party members didn't agree with him. That was because they didn't feel it was in the best interests of their constituents. In a real democracy like America's, the elected officials represent their constituents, not their party as in pseudodemocracies like European governments in general and the UK's in particular. "
Read what he says before commenting, you just look silly.
He is talking about respect, not politics.
Can't you tell the difference? Its fairly basic.
"BBC's reporting is so poor, I'm thinking about dropping it as even one source of news. It's reporting has lost nearly all credibility with me especially insofar as anything to do with American domestic policies and events. Its interpretations are so far off the wall as to be more amusing than informative but ultimately a waste of time. BBC, given your once highly esteemed position in the world of journalism and the amount of money at your disposal, the quality of your product is inexcusable. But then what do you expect from what is in reality a socialist creation expressing the views of a management which is firmly comitted to socialism...and in its own self interest. "
Well we will regret your departuer profoundly. But the quality of the board will improve markedly.
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Justin,
The way House Republicans are responding to the President does not "boggle the mind", at least not to anyone who expected Bush's self-proclaimed conservatism to mean something and found him/herself seriously betrayed in principle AND deed.
Bush has time and time again approved big spending measures put forth by Congress. For 8 years we've watched him make a mockery of the Republican party with a lack of financial prudence and inattention to "mind boggling" deficits.
Richard Shelby (Senator-R-Alabama) spoke outside the White House yesterday after the big photo-op meeting. In his hands he held 5 pages of the names of top US economists from the most elite, prestigious colleges and institutions across the country (Harvard, Yale, MIT, University of Chicago, to name a small sampling). 5 pages of named economists were saying that this proposed idea (as is currently) is NOT a good idea to proceed with.
Now, Shelby is not my Senator. But who would you lean toward believing---the current President who has no credibility in financial integrity or history of looking after the protection of taxpayer dollars? Or the Republican House and Senate who have 5 pages of top economists' views on the matter in one hand vs. a President who hasn't shown a fiscally conservative bone in his body since the utterance of conservative financial words on the 2000 election campaign trail?
It is my opinion that the Repub House is not giving respect to the President in this matter because the President has no track record of having earned it!
And---with regard to the blame game going on in this blog, and straight down candidate lines, there is monumental blame to be placed in both parties. The laws that have been passed (yes, EVEN beyond the past 8 years!), the policies implemented by current and former presidents, banks that risked hedge-bets on ARM and low-credit-score customers, look into the background of this mess and see that it's a devastating house of cards that took a long time to build. Now we're watching it all fall.
Oh, and don't forget the blame that rests on all of us voting Americans who didn't take the time or interest over the years to know what their House and Senate representatives were doing right down to risky homeowners who took out stupidly ridiculous interest-only loans (THAT boggles my mind!) and now scream that their sky is falling.
***Honestly now, what miniscule percent of Americans can honestly say that before 2 months ago they even knew what Freddie/Fannie did or that there were serious flaws in the Fr/Fa foundation or that Barney Frank chaired a house financial committee?
This isn't a one-party fits all blame situation. From the top of our government all the way down to the inattention to John and Jane Voter, this happened on EVERYONE'S watch. I'll note, also, that in the early 2000's when a VERY few public and private sector persons were trying to sound words of caution to what was coming, all of us who were enjoying huge property sales, low unemployment, smaller fuel bills and ballooning stock investments weren't crying/caring too much about the problem, were we?
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Re: 4. aquarizonagal
"As for McCain, what I have seen is that over 75% of the voters want him to debate on Friday. "
Cite your reference. The percentage appears quite arbitrary and without basis.
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why do people comment on the BBC's blogs if they don't like the BBC? maybe those people should try Fox News's blogs.
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Caveat Emptor!
Right On!A very Canny Lass, that Naomi
;-)
ed
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Well, Ed Iglehart said in an earlier post that Congress could work on simple majority lines, like the UK House of Commons.
I believe the Democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives by 235 to 199, a clear working majority.
They have more of a problem in the Senate but they still effectively have a majority.
Why don't they just vote the bailout measure they want through Congress ?
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#61 mgelsi
Will the BBC give me my licence fee back if I watch a different channel ?
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When will you Bush-bashers ever figure out you are living the Clinton legacy?
The mortgage regulatory changes that led to this plethora and concentration of bad debt came from Cuomo and Clinton in 1994.
Cuomo was Secretary under Clinton, and exercised his influence over HUD to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac so accept poorer quality applicants and higher limits.
Clinton's motive was to make it possible for more Americans to own homes.
This, in no small part, made that fantastic economy under Clinton possible. Now, the brain damaged portion of their policy has come to fruition.
It is most unfortunate that the current President is taking bullets for the actions of the previous.
Note that Cuomo is wearing a white hat and trying to be the "great investigator" of corporate/mortgage corruption. It was his effort that made this mess possible. Tar and feathering is appropriate with him.
Clinton is smartly staying quiet, hoping no one makes the connection.
BTW: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac protested the changes in 1994 because it would increase the percentage of defaults and concentrate the bad debt to the mortgage sector. Ultimately, by regulation, they were forced to issue mortgages against their better judgement.
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Other sources are reporting "shouting" at Bush's meeting yesterday
and saying that Paulson begged them "on bended knee" not to tell the press-
The gullible and unwashed are being manipulated to the last moment..
It has worked in the past,
Can it work one more time before we flee?
Remember, say "Jesus was a NeoCon"!
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What troubles me the most about the proposed bailout, in addition to the fact that our leaders have not elaborated on the exact nature and extent of the crisis, is that we - the people who can't afford to pay our mortgages, losing jobs, facing the probability of losing our pensions, having trouble getting credit, having to choose between food and medication, and are unable to pay our large credit card balances - are being asked to assume responsibility for a $2,300 bail out to help some rich dudes with so many mansions they can't even keep track of them!
I realize that according to the genius in the Oval Office, and pseudo President Paulson, we should be able to not only recover the amount we are spending, but may actually make money on what according to them must be an investment rather than a bailout or "debt rescue" plan. I guess it must be my simplistic mind that is having trouble processing such a complex matter, but if the assets of the failing institutions are so valuable that we can turn around and sell them at a profit, why are they going broke?
For some reason I keep thinking of Robert Redford's "The Sting", but without Scott Joplin's beautiful music in the background.
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Confidence can only be based on reality; unless the US move fully removes the reality of near-worthless assets on bank balance sheets then confidence can be sustainably returned. My view is therefore that the only way this can be achieved is for the US government to take substantial or 100%equity in the threatened institutions. When times are better this can be reveresed and profits returned to the taxayer
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Ref 63
"Why don't they just vote the bailout measure they want through Congress ?"
The Senate must approve before the bill is sent to the President for signature. Considering the makeup of the Senate:
49 Democrats
49 Republicans
2 Independents (with Lieberman often siding with the Republicans and VP Dick Cheney as tie breaker) the outcome of the ongoing deliberations is far from certain.
Add to that the fact that the Democrats are not too excited about the situation, and that many would love nothing more than let the Administration and Republican ideology bear the brunt of responsibility for this crisis, and we have a major problem in our hands. If that wasn't enough, House Republicans also oppose the bailout on ideological basis (many consider it a socialist bailout). Gridlock and inaction should not surprise anyone.
Things will move in earnest if the DJIA sinks today, banks announce tougher credit policies, and more institutions file for bankruptcy. Politicians act when the public panics and the national mood changes.
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#56 MAII
What a load of rapid gibberish! It was fun reading I suppose. Calling Europe pseudo-democracies? Funny. What have you got in USA? A two party system of the same party. Have you ever been to continental Europe? If you did, come election time, you'll have the choice ranging from neo-fascist in the extreme right to old guard Communism on the left.
We have human rights written in European law which supersedes national law. And knocking the UK on democracy? Learn the Magna Carta, and more importantly, learn US history of democracy. You'll find it originated from British settlers, amongst other Europeans.
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Just to be clear - don't forget I am just a dumb Brit - McCain is the Republican candidate, Bush is the Republican president. Republicans on the Hill are blocking the Republican president's bail out plan for the economy and the Republican candidate does not know whether to support the Republicans on the Hill or the Republicans in the White House. Right?
In the meantime the Republican candidate cannot make up his mind whether or not to go head to head with the Democrat later today - presumably because he can't make his mind up whether or not he has a policy and what it is.
If the Congress is treating Bush with contempt, imagine the field day they would have with McCain!
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Poor old McCain. He dreads standing there and looking bad against Obama and thought he'd come across a wizard wheeze to dodge the thing and look ok. When I was a kid at school and wanted to get out of doing something I'd look around for similar escape routes.
Sadly he's got no way out. Smart move by Obama to turn the "responsibility" thing around to saying the nation needed the debate more than ever. Now McCain is rumbled he'll just look worse.
The other problem for the Republicans is the risk that Palin will have to talk about complicated things with Biden. Biden is no star but at least he'll have the knowledge to get on top of it. She'll be really well prepared, but watch her run back to "Hockey Mom" character when it gets complicated.
If America votes for that lady simply because she's photogenic, uncomplicated and "like them" then for the first time in my life my American friends, I will say that I must give up on you. I love America and get in more argumants defending you than anything, but seriouly you have to look like a country who can decide to see yourselves as part of the World rather than running into your burrows in denial.
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So pleasing to see MAII is on form. The BBC a "socialist creation" run by a "socialist management"? I suppose that merely means not right-wing enough, or why shouldn't I say "fascist" for some people? It would be just as silly.
The proper word, possibly, is "liberal" in the proper meaning of the word, which seems to have fallen into desuetude on the other side of the Atlantic.
Several readers have tried to point out the absurdity of bandying the word "socialism" about as though it was some sort of catch-all criticism. As we see in the Republican party's shambolic response yesterday, simply shouting "Socialism!" is neither an argument nor a solution. It's just a catchphrase.
Neither that nor lectures on the separation of powers alters the simple fact that a large number of Republicans appear to be at odds with a President of their own party, and if a shouting match between them around a table in the White House doesn't demonstrate a total loss of respect for an incumbent President, I don't know what does.
To claim Senators or Congressmen only or always represent the views of their constituents is disingenuous. It may be the theory, but how many Senators went back to their constituents this week to ask them in a baseball stadium what they thought?
And why should that be a good thing? There are times when the good of the country means something should be done that the voters might not actually like. Or perhaps not have thought of. Otherwise it's merely government by opinion poll. Or according to who shouts loudest. As we seem to be seeing at the moment, it just results in panic and paralysis.
And European political parties don't always vote en masse as the PM expects them to. To argue that is being as naive about European parliamentary systems as Justin is being accused of about the American one. That's how European governments often fall before the end of their term and how we get to elect another one we hope may be better.
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Mindboggling contempt for Justin Webb and BBC....due to their mindboggling ignorance. That is all that I can post on this thread having read it. Apparantly also having read it, the reasons why will be surpressed by BBC. In this case, the truth hurts too much.
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#67 DominickVila
The problem is not that these CDOs are worthless. In fact, probably none of them are worthless.
Where mortgages were involved they were apparently bundled together - high risk with low - so that the whole bundle could not collapse and become worthless all at once.
The problem is that nobody knows what they're worth and uncertainty tends to undermine markets.
The regulation that's needed to cure this particular aspect of the problem is to make sure that the reality of these products is properly reflected in banks' balance sheets.
That way nobody will ever be able to say 'nobody knows what they're worth'.
What's really needed to prevent all of this - credit crunch and recession - is regulation to make sure mortgage debt is related to the reality of the holder's credit-worthiness.
That won't prevent people defaulting when they lose their jobs or suffer some other calamity - but at least default won't happen as a matter of course when house prices fall.
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59. tiptoplisamich:
"Richard Shelby (Senator-R-Alabama) spoke outside the White House yesterday after the big photo-op meeting. In his hands he held 5 pages of the names of top US economists from the most elite, prestigious colleges and institutions across the country (Harvard, Yale, MIT, University of Chicago, to name a small sampling). 5 pages of named economists were saying that this proposed idea (as is currently) is NOT a good idea to proceed with. "
Shelby waved that paper but couldn't or wouldn't come up with one point of a plan himself. I found his little speech puzzling.
In fact, the lack of any details whatsoever has been puzzling. Lots of posturing -- ex., Rahm Emanuel's that they were so close to a deal -- but few details.
People can say what they will about McCain but at least he's capable of playing a role in the negotiations. Obama looks lost.
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#69 DominickVila
As far as I know, Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders (the Independents in the Senate) are in the Democrat caucus.
Are you saying that the Democrats won't even try to push a measure through Congress because of the Senate Independents ?
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61. mgelsi:
"why do people comment on the BBC's blogs if they don't like the BBC? maybe those people should try Fox News's blogs. "
Er, actually, MSNBC with Olberman and Maddow might be more to their tastes.
Last night, while Sean Hannity was interviewing Condi Rice, Olberman and Maddow were dissecting and mocking Palin's statements, one by one.
They've developed quite a niche for themselves.
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With apologies to Justin, because in some ways this post is 'off topic', but in other ways it cuts to the very heart of many of the issues being addressed here.
On another blog 'Nailing a sneezing maverick
' MagicKirin raises the question of Israel and the Palestinians and proceeds to show his total ignorance of the events that have led him and his countrymen to be where they are now. In this blog the subject of 11th September 2001, the comments by the Reverend Wright and all the patriotic misdirection they engender have also been raised. I salute 'NewsReelNeil' for his comment about DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH, and would like to give a few pointers. Don't accept what I say from hereon in as gospel truth (there's an interesting concept) but equally don't shoot the messenger, read the message and then do the research.
First a statement from 'MagicKirin'
"The Israelis condemned 9/11 the Palestinians condoned it."
Well yes they would wouldn't they.
The Israelis are hardly going to support an attack on the nation that has blindly and unswervingly ensured their existence to the tune of and here I quote:-
"Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen."
The Palestinians, however, are hardly going to feel very sympathetic to a nation who has supported the rape and pillage of their land and property for the past 60 years.
You are currently locked in a debate about whether to spend $700 billion on yourselves and yet you don't seem to see the incongruity of spending the sort of money stated above on a tiny group of people who have stolen someone else's land.
Your country's founders and your revolution were based on the principles of equality and justice and yet you blindly support Israeli aggression, annexation of Palestinian lands even though this is totally illegal and in breach of countless UN resolutions.
Rev Wright stated that 9/11 was your own fault. I agree, it was a self inflicted injury. You created Osama Bin Laden. Your CIA trained him and encouraged him to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Your nation by it's foolish and blind support of Israel turned him and so many others into Islamic fanatics and now you are reaping the whirlwind. The problem I have with it is that it is going to get worse, and that Britain in the because of the misguided actions of Tony Blair is now seriously ensnared in the same disastrous trap.
Zionism, in the guise of 'we lived there 2000 years ago we deserve to live there now', is a dangerous and misleading creed. If you accept it then as Americans you have to ask yourselves 'where are we going to live' as you hand back the US to the Native Americans as will the Canadians, Australians, South Africans and most of South America. By saying this I'm not saying that the Israeli people do not deserve to live in peace. I am saying that the don't have a right to dispossess the Palestinians.
The much reviled President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is reputed to have said that the holocaust didn't really happen. He didn't say that, I have seen the full transcript of that speech. He said the holocaust happened but 'Did the Palestinians do it and if not, why should they pay the price? That is a reasonable question and I think deserves an answer.
The Iranians are being demonised for having the potential, at some time in the future, of building a nuclear weapon. The Iranians haven't attacked anyone, they fought the Iraqis under Saddam Hussein to a standstill even though the Iraqui had been armed by yourselves and the unlovely Mr Rumsfeld. While the Israelis with a track record of attacking their neighbours at the drop of a hat are reputed to possess the 6th largest nuclear arsenal in the world. As a Brit I will own up to the fact that the Israelis got started with that arsenal with the help of us Brits as a thank you for their assistance at Suez. As a Brit I will also hold my hands up to the fact that we encouraged the birth of Israel and haven't been in anyway critical enough of their actions since.
It's seems to me that Israeli paranoia knows no bounds. I can think of one very good reason why no Arab state with a nuclear weapon will use it against Israel, the Jewish Israelis have over one million hostages living cheek by jowl with them. I refer to, of course, the 20% of the Israeli population that is of Arab descent. That is not to mention the Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and Gaza. What Arab leader no matter however deranged is going to bomb his own relatives?
For quite some time now the equally unlovely Mr Cheney has been trying to get you into a war with the Iranians. I agree the Iranians don't like you, but I don't agree that they have no reason to dislike you. They have every reason. You preach about democracy but only the democracy that supports your point of view. The Iranians had democracy back in 1956, but Mr Mossadeq, the prime minister was a (now comes the dreadful word) SOCIALIST and John Foster Dulles instructed the CIA to have him removed. This was done and Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, took power. He was terrified and immediately formed a ruthless secret police organisation which supressed all forms of dissent. The Iranians had to endure this for over 20 years and they, not unreasonably, blame you. Again as a Brit I will admit that we, devious as ever, pushed your hand in this exercise because Mossadeq was going to nationalise BP's holdings in Iran. On the same note, re democracy, remember that Hamas in the Gaza strip were a freely and democratically elected government.
That's all from me, I hope that you accept it in the spirit that it is written. We don't hate you, we quite like you, but you are driving us all mad with your refusal to see the world as it really is.
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The speech by Bush had all the hallmarks of the same speech that took us to war in the middle east.
We are being told that we are dammed if we do not react in the way that they tell us is necessary.
The problem with this is that we do not have the facts to hand to qualify what he is saying.
This is political speak for the city boys have got them selves into a mess and everybody else has the job of getting them out of it.
Remember in perhaps not twelve but maybe fourteen months time, the city boys will be making gravy again and we (the majority) will still be feeling the pain.
In their so called free market they should be free to rot and then perhaps the moral majority can start to regain the high ground
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Justin Webb:
'I stand to be corrected (as usual) but I cannot believe the American people are sitting back and saying, "Good show, John."'
You might be underestimating the anger felt by Americans not just at Bush but also at their Congress and Senate.
Bush came up with the first proposal. Now its their turn to make sure taxpayers don't get stuck footing this bill. All eyes are on them, not Bush.
The party that is perceived as pulling off a deal that builds in protections for taxpayers is going to come out a winner.
I also differ on appearances. Obama's available for debate because he is of no real value to the negotiations.
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65. neil_a2:
"When will you Bush-bashers ever figure out you are living the Clinton legacy?
The mortgage regulatory changes that led to this plethora and concentration of bad debt came from Cuomo and Clinton in 1994.
....
Clinton is smartly staying quiet, hoping no one makes the connection.
**********************
On the contrary, Clinton's taken every opportunity to ostensibly promote Obama as a return to the golden Clinton years. His message is, "Vote for me again."
I haven't seen anyone question Clinton about his role in any of this. It would make for an interesting debate question of Obama, ex., How would his policies differ from Bill Clinton's? But that would require an understanding of Clinton's policy's implications. Not likely any time soon. The media is too caught up just like everyone else.
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All those rushing to condemn McCain for returning to focus on the financial crisis would do well to see this news clip, which notes Republicans were not willing to take a stand on the proposal without guidance from McCain. And Harry Reid is also featured, saying: "We need the Republican nominee for President telling us where he stand and what we should do."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3f0BwyZKMw
These are now the same people incredulously stating McCain's presence is meaningless. The truth is, McCain is viewed as a leader by his peers, while Obama's been running for president since he started in the Senate and as such holds little sway there beyond the necessary propping up as the nominee.
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If the bailout does go through I'd be very tempted, if I was the next President, to reverse Bush's tax cuts and reimpose a far higher one on the very wealthy designed to claw back the $700 million over a 3 year period.
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79. T1m0thy:
"That's all from me, I hope that you accept it in the spirit that it is written. We don't hate you, we quite like you, but you are driving us all mad with your refusal to see the world as it really is. "
I don't speak for all Americans, as you can see from my divergent views here; however, I can say the following:
Many Americans hold a world view different from yours. If this is maddening, then perhaps you should adjust your expectations. That you should expect a nation to mirror your own world view may be the crux of the problem.
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#79 T1m0thy
A couple of things...
How about South Vietnam.
How come the North Vietnamese get to keep it ? They invaded it and took it more recently than 1967.
At most Donald Rumsfeld sold the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein some helicopters.
It's one of the many myths of Iraq that the Americans armed them. They were a Soviet client state. Their armaments were Russian. Their planes were MiGs, etc. their tanks were T72 etc. with some Chinese models.
That was why the Russians opposed the first Gulf War.
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#78 - AndreainNY
Condi Rice also gave an interview to BBC's Newsnight yesterday. Paxman can be quite tough and his questions were pertinent. Rice acquitted herself very well. TBH, the thought that Paulson and Rice rather than Bush might be in charge now is quite reassuring
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A gift from me to all the Palin lovers:
Read
ooopsieeee...so much for christian values!
defenders of the palin order are welcome to comment on that.
Approved by a templar knight at heart!
cheers all!
p.s. Anyone still fooling him/herself with McCain yet?
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Ed,
i read a post of yours to me yesterday.
The situation we are now as far as I know has not happened before?
700,000,000,000 has never before been an issue!
As far as the politics behind the number is concerned you are absolutely right, it has happened again and again and again. That's the beauty of American democracy. It is empty and inefficient.
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85. AndreainNY
To hold one's own opinion and to be able to express that is the very foundation of democracy.
It is, however, generally a good thing to be able to back those views with facts. Your statement whilst true with regard to opinions does nothing to refute the facts of my case. Please explain why you support the shameful injustice of what has been done to the Palestinian people. What have they done wrong?
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87. threnodio:
"#78 - AndreainNY
Condi Rice also gave an interview to BBC's Newsnight yesterday. Paxman can be quite tough and his questions were pertinent. Rice acquitted herself very well. TBH, the thought that Paulson and Rice rather than Bush might be in charge now is quite reassuring "
Yes, except for the fact that the American public is also in charge to the extent it demands a plan that doesn't saddle it with all the risk and debt.
Its interests should be represented, but the "stick it to the rich man" mentality is not productive, IMO.
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#76 AdreainNY:
You have certainly struck at the heart of the matter, and I applaud you.
"In fact, the lack of any details whatsoever has been puzzling. Lots of posturing -- ex., Rahm Emanuel's that they were so close to a deal -- but few details." (excerpt from your comment)
I think in this we may find the heart of why the House and Senate are finding themselves in the middle of a furious consituent firestorm. The American people (calling and emailing their representatives) are demanding answers---and especially details---and are getting little in response.
(I've never seen so many deer-in-the-headlights looks in all my life!)
By proxy, Congress is basically saying they have no idea how to fix it. And like immature children, their idea to appease our questions is to assign blame rather than look forward.
I guess one positive to come out of all of this is, indeed, the number of calls and emails to Congress----the American people are finally demanding accountability from those they elected to represent them and safe-guard/wisely spend their tax dollars. A small glimmer of hope, perhaps. Or maybe I'm just grasping the last straw I can find.
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T1m0thy # 79
Many make comments about long reports on this blog and refuse to check the content.
Well written and informative.
Fortunately one now notices many Americans also hang their heads in shame for the un-necessary interferences their own country has instigated, though I feel you are pushing your luck a bit far in justifyably praising the one side and chastising the other however truthful your piece is.
Thank you for an honest appraisal.
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#79 t1m0thy
..and I forgot
You mentioned SAVAK - the Shah's secret police.
Have you heard of the Basij ? There are about 11 million of them in Iran today. This is what UNHCR (in Wikipedia) says they do:
From news reports I have read, a favourite of theirs is to pick up women (about half the Basij are women) and humiliate them if they are not 'properly dressed'.
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86 Chill0
Interesting. Before the communists kicked the French out of Vietnam it was all one country inhabited by the Vietnamese. Then it became two countries still inhabited by the Vietnamese. After the, the communists, evicted the US it again became one country inhabited by the Vietnamese. Those in the south may not have liked or wanted the transition but I fail to see the parallel with Israel. It isn't as though the communist powers proceeded to import masses of people from all over the world in live in a place with which they had no ties whatsoever apart from a long standing claim (2000 years old and difficult if not impossible to verify) that they originally came from the region.
With regard to Iraqi weaponry, I did in fact know that much of it was of Russian origin but you can't deny Rumsfeld's efforts in egging them on to attack Iran.
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"I stand to be corrected (as usual) but I cannot believe the American people are sitting back and saying, "Good show, John.""
I'm not sitting back and saying "Good show John!" I am an American person. What "American" people have you been speeking with? You would dare place me in this generalisation? How thoughtless are you? I am just as furious at McCain's actions as the next (rational) American! I would never generalise Britains like this.
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#79 # 85
Well said!
The strategic fact is that IRAN would make a valuable strategic ally for the USA.
(Look at history and at a map to grasp this easily).
The once mighty USA has been manipulated into very stupid actions by the NeoCons and the other Israeli sympathizers within the USA.
By shaking off the corruption of legalism, the USA could begin the long road back to respectability.
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McCain seems not only to hold the president in contempt, but the people of the university where he's supposed to debate tonight. If he had any respect for how much work goes in to that kind of event, he'd be there.
I can't commit to a president who can't even commit yes or no to a debate!
Please I hope he sends Palin! I'd love to see Obama clean her clock.
As for Bush, I just feel bad for him. He's had nothing but bad luck and years of being criticized, starting with 9/11. I think he did his best, but he just wasn't prepared to deal with something that big [were any of us?] and it just spiraled out of control.
I'm afraid that freedom of speech in America includes vocal hatred of anybody we want, including the president. It's sad at times, but then again, we have no reason to hide our true feelings when there is no penalty for speaking out. (but then, that's a good thing!)
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ref #79
It is you who aren't living in the real world.
The land was never owned by the Palestinians it was owned primarily by absentee Arab owners.
And not to recognize that Iran is supporting the terroirst group Hamas and Hezbollah is sticking your head in the sand.
You are very accomodating with Israel's security concerns.
The fact is that the Lebanese broke their treaty obligations, The Palestinians did as well.
Egypt did not and they have peace
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Justin,
The contempt shown sound it is yours, or to your liking.
And the wise crack about," the mayor...."
Well, count your lucky stars, like most non- residents, you can go home.
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Respect must be earned. G.W. Bush has not made a decision during his presidency that deserves respect. Therefore his remaining four months of the presidency will simply demonstrate his impotence as a state leader. To review his presidential accomplishments: stolen election; ruined US image abroad; governed through fear and secrecy; unilateral invasion of another country; coined the phrase "pre-emptive strike" which is completely without legal precedent; reversed two centuries of constitutional protections for American people; keeping prisoners without regard for the Geneva Convention; torturing those same prisoners; authorized the illegal practice of extraordinary rendition; has allowed the US economy to fall into a dismal abyss. This is a man deserving of contempt and should be tried for his crimes against his countrymen and humanity.
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94 chill0
This is very true. I think your numbers are a bit on the large side but I don't deny the truth of your statement. What I do say, however, it that if you hadn't interfered in the first place there wouldn't have been a radical Islamic government in Iran and the people of Iran would have been much better off.
Don't use cherry picking tactics to prove your arguments please. My point was that the Iranian people had very good reason to dislike the US. I'm not saying that I endorse much of what goes on in Iran in fact I heartily dislike much of it. I'm saying that it's time US citizens came to terms with where their government's policies have taken them and the real cost. In this case the real cost of cheap oil and SUV's
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ref #67
I agree about not wanting to bail out companies whose exec are getting Golden parachutes. I also don't want to bail out those people who bought houses that was twice as much as they could afford.
We have all had to cut back expenses and I resent that community activists will block a legal eviction and expect us to pay for it.
I could have got a much larger house than I own (as could many people) but most of us acted responsibly.
Some bail out is needed but some companies should not be helped and that includes U.S automakers.
Start from scratch get rid of the obscene salaries , dump the Union entitlements, would be a good start.
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The most remarkable thing is that Bush, in particular, and the Republicans and most Americans' conservative instincts in general, have been revealed as morally, intellectually and financially bankrupt. Sure, we'll give Wall Street 700 billion because they're hurting. But when did they ever give us a red cent? The truth is, the free market was never free. It was always socialism for the rich. They never had to bear responsibility for their mistakes, like the poor and the middle classes. And the fact that Americans are being forced to confront that fact is causing yelps of pain all around, and something approaching panic from McCain and the republicans. The emperor, quite clearly, is not wearing clothes.
The amazing thing about Bush is that he's managed to be an even bigger disaster domestically than he's been internationally. It boggles the mind that one man can make so many idiotic decisions, yet the fact that Americans elected such a flaming, smoking disaster president twice is even more astounding.
About Obama: what he's saying, like Clinton, in what he doesn't say, is that you actually need someone smart to be president, someone who can think things through carefully and thoroughly. Now, of all times, when we've seen what happens with a president proud of his stupidity, we should be grateful we have him. We need all the smarts we can get to get out of the messes we're in.
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"The American people are very angry that the government is planning to bail out Wall Street from its own folly. This is seen as a socialist tyranny of the worst kind."
Didn't the Americans form the pragmatic school of philosophy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism
A nation that boasts this rich epistemological heritage is now governed by intellectual pygmies, who are in turn governed by the failed ideology of the free market. A shame.
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#95 T1m0thy
Palestine was never a nation. The 'imporation of people from all over the world' was neither here nor there. Once there, they were legally there.
I have read - although I'm sure it's open to question - that many of the Arabs in Palestine did not have fixed residence there. They wandered through. The fact is, the place was comparatively lawless during the British mandate and the post-Ottoman period generally.
Many of the Jews in Palestine were there during the Ottoman time anyway and many were kicked out of other Middle Eastern countries - with the notable exception of Iran which never took any such action against its Jews. They are even represented in the Majlis.
You are right (or some poster earlier on was) that the same line of argument applies to colonists in every formerly 'uncivilised' part of the world to which they moved. What is their right to stay there ? About the same as the Israelis.
During Soviet times huge migrations occurred in the Soviet Union - some of them forcibly like the Tatars. There are now large Russian minorities all over former Soviet republics to prove it.
What gave the Palestinians special rights over all of these people ?
At the risk of being critical, saying:
...when you knew the Iraqis were armed by the Russians was disingenuous at best.
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From the BBC BLOG "Prestons Picks"
77. At 1:21pm on 26 Sep 2008, strategycall wrote:
So who is the Patsy in all this ?
It won't be the gambling Bankers and the incompetent Bankers
It won't be the incompetent and suppine Politicians
It won't be the sleepy Regulators
It will be the Taxpayer, the Depositor and those who don't want rabid inflation
ie Banks win - Customers lose - Stupidity reigns
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99 MagicKirin
'The land was never owned by the Palestinians it was owned primarily by absentee Arab owners.'
Oh please come on. If they didn't own and didn't live there how come there are so many Palestinian refugees? And also why did the Jews (they weren't Israelis in 1948) need to fight a war. Surely if the land was the unoccupied property of some absentee Arab landowners there would have been no one to have a war with. Fighting absentee landlords that's an interesting slant on things.
I am coming to the same conclusion that some other commentators to this blog have come to. That is that you will find an excuse for Israel whatever they do.
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#99 MagicKrin
Do your research! Your knowledge on the history of the middle east is staggering.
Considering the US conquered large amounts of North America killing millions (yes millions) of natives you feel the US has a right to own that land. Israeli Jews were kicked out by the Romans, and after them it was occupied by the Ottomans/Arabs. Now you claim it always was Israeli. Typical half witted hypocrite American.
As Europeans we know colonialism when we see it.
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101 merangitsch
Wouldn't like to make any real comment about GWB he's your president, but (the weasel word) when you do send him, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al to the International court on war crimes charges can you please take Tony Blair as well?
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'morning from Texas,
Just enjoying coffee and sunrise, got to thinking the results aren't all in. None here that I've seen have mentioned that the USA isn't the only country facing a massive banking crisis.
This 'rescue' of our system is differnt than a 'bailout', as in the one we recoup the investment by holding the deeds and the note, (as long as it works), and the bailout appears to be inflationary extreme, basically printing the money, placing it into the bankers hands to lose or steal once again.
Appears that the co-alition yesterday morning mixed both measures in fairly equal ammounts, called it 'workable' and were very wrong. The Democrats and Republicans were hoping for this to go away with our money, let the campaign procede. Then the blame game set in.
Whose at fault, whose in control, who has this oversight, where is the safety from prosecution, where is the power over the people lie? Neither party cares for the 'little' guy, they are busy covering thier royal a$$es and maintaining an unworkable 'not free market' banking system.
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"But there is no "power vacuum" except in the American imagination. American power has been based mainly on either military or economic threats for the last century. The demise of that does not leave a vacuum. Just the same space countries had before, only possibly safer"
British-ish:
I must comment on the absurd, fabulous presumption of the numerous British armchair experts who are absolutely certain that you know everything there is to know about American life, both now and in the future.
No doubt you are quite correct that the demise of the United States will create a more wonderful world for you and all other peace-loving, love-stuffed Global Citizens.
China and militant Islam are the new powers that are currently gaining strength and confidence, and no doubt you and the other Brits on this very strange blog will throw yourselves into their waiting arms with gurgles and squeals. What a relief to be rid of those nasty, mean-spirited Americans! Your new alliances will surely provide endless bliss.
Of course, you MAY be in for an unpleasant surprise: somehow I doubt that the Chinese and militant Muslims will prove to be the love-stuffed paragons of virtue you expect.
But who am I to interfere with your romantic (and masochistic) infatutation?
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"Seattle-based WaMu, which was founded in 1889, is the largest bank to fail by far in the country's history. ...Its $307 billion in assets... "
By MADLEN READ, AP Business Writer
So worried for seven hundred billion that the failure of a small three hundred billion dollar bank is nothing.
Anyone here ever stand Dominos, got to be quick to stop the drop in the middle of the line, and the way the story sits in DC this may take weeks.
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#102 T1m0thy
I am afraid you will have to explain that. I am old.
...and I am not American. I am British. No way you could know if you have not followed this blog before.
I doubt you have seen them but I have made several posts asking whether Barack Obama will have an 'ethical foreign policy' if he is elected. That is predicated partly on the fact that Joe Biden suggested NATO troops - which would have meant American troops - went into Darfur. He suggested a small number but larger numbers would almost certainly have had to follow.
So what do you think the USA should do about Darfur ? It is my belief that the Iraq War saved a large number of Iraqi lives. Whether you believe that or not (I suspect you don't), the Fur, Zaghawa and Massalit are being killed partly to get the Chinese their oil. Sample:
Do you think someone should help these Sudanese ? Arguably (by many outside the UN) the attacks by the Sudanese government are partly racially and religiously inspired. Many of the people they attack are ethnically not Arabs and not muslims.
Why does that situation not merit the attention the Palestinians get ? They are dying now. Around 300,000 have died already - far more than died in Iraq.
You can bet your life that if Joe Biden's idea had been taken up, there would be no shortage of people saying the Americans just did it for oil.
Would you be one of them ? Or would you back the intervention.
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ref #109
The U.S gives a far more balanced account of the Mid East history than Europe.
I have read several books on the subject.
The facts can't be disputed, Israel honors it's peace treaties the Lebanese and Palestinians don't.
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I don't understand why anyone should be surprised by the rebellion of the Republican Dems against Bush.
He is a very unpopular lame-duck president - and above all, his VP is not running for the White House. This is their opportunity to impress their constitutents (or try to).
The bailout is highly controversial, and McCain is clueless when it comes to the economy. He has virtually no interest in the topic, and his lack of understanding is obvious. He has lost quite a bit of credibility in recent days.
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What troubles me about the bailout is the lack of understanding.
The $700 billion is sufficient to cover 5.8% of the total mortgages issued. What is magic about this number is that it is about the default rate on mortgages.
The lending institutions over-extended their debt/equity ratios, so that the potential defaults are sufficient to make the companies insolvent. Even though, the 94.2% of their portfolios are fully valued.
The bailout is to keep them from becoming insolvent.
If the companies become insolvent, then they are incapable of providing the financial services we need to function as an economy (loans for construction, inventory, cars, homes, credit cards, ... .)
The government equity in exchange is to mitigate the cost so the bulk of the $700 will be recovered.
It is not a gift to bad Wall Street management.
With that much money entering the market, it is necessary to apply it responsibly so the unethical do not take it. That is the sticky wicket.
The bundling of the mortgages as securities was necessary to mitigate the bad-debt risk that the Clinton/Cuomo changes allowed.
The later ARM's did provide some financial relief to reflect the risk where the collateral did not have sufficient margin to cover the financial outlay. This, unfortunately, made serving marginal loans even more difficult, and led to the defaults that it was designed to mitigate.
The legal, but unethical practices of the mortgage brokers and predatory lending definitely need to be constrained and their perpetrators unrewarded. (Their actions were legal, so punishing is not an option.)
The deliberate sale of bundled bad debt constituted fraud and should be punished to the full extent of the law. Please note, the securities, if fully funded, were not worthless. It is just they were worth less than their face value, which is devastating if the funding is leveraged.
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"Considering the US conquered large amounts of North America killing millions (yes millions) of natives you feel the US has a right to own that land."
dceilar:
Really?
The Brits are hardly in a position to be giving smug lectures to others regarding conquest.......
As for the "millions" killed - surely there must be something else to talk about on this weird blog besides revisionist history and self-righteous pronouncements?
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#109 dceilar
Presumably you're not saying the Ottoman empire started at the end of the Roman occupation of Israel.
The Jews and Arabs are both semitic peoples.
So when you say 'Ottomans/Arabs', who are you talking about ?
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104. At 2:52pm on 26 Sep 2008, RedWhiteandermblue wrote
Please sir/madam Who is us?
The adage fits, 'Better a fool to keep your mouth shut and appear smart, then open it and remove all doubt.'
Bush is the 'Fool on the Hill' right now, following the advice of two, whose failed attempts at correction are evident. Paulson and Bernake.
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T1m0thy (79),
I second all that you say. Well said indeed.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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#108 T1m0thy
All of the Arab states around Israel, perhaps. See this. Sample:
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Andrea (85),
A fine summary of the present problem, but from the opposite direction you intend.;-)
ed
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Chill0 (86),
And a chemistry set.Complain about this comment
114. At 3:18pm on 26 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
"
So what do you think the USA should do about Darfur ? It is my belief that the Iraq War saved a large number of Iraqi lives. Whether you believe that or not (I suspect you don't), the Fur, Zaghawa and Massalit are being killed partly to get the Chinese their oil. Sample:
A spokesman for a rival rebel group, the SLA's Unity faction, said rebels had been expecting an attack and were preparing to defend themselves.
The government was trying to clear the rebels out of the far north of Darfur so that Chinese companies could explore for oil, he said. "
Yes but this was said by a member of a rebel group. They have a fair bit of blood on their hands themselves. it is hardly objective.
"Do you think someone should help these Sudanese ? Arguably (by many outside the UN) the attacks by the Sudanese government are partly racially and religiously inspired. Many of the people they attack are ethnically not Arabs and not muslims."
Are they. Most of those in Darfur are moslems and manyof those attacking them are not "arabs".
It is not a religious struggle, it is certainly not a "racial" one in any way shape or form. Khartoum is full of black Africans.l
A brief glance at some of the newsreels shows this.
"Why does that situation not merit the attention the Palestinians get ? They are dying now. Around 300,000 have died already - far more than died in Iraq."
More than 4 million have died in the COngo.
The difference with the Palestinians is that we, the supposed "liberal" west actively support the oppression and dispossession of the Palestinians.
"
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119. At 3:26pm on 26 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
#109 dceilar
Israeli Jews were kicked out by the Romans, and after them it was occupied by the Ottomans/Arabs
Presumably you're not saying the Ottoman empire started at the end of the Roman occupation of Israel.
The Jews and Arabs are both semitic peoples.
So when you say 'Ottomans/Arabs', who are you talking about ?
There is no jewish people and possibly has never been. Judaism is a religion. Arab refers to a cultural idenity - though now it is used as a term of abuse by many Americans.
The Palestinian people have been ottomans, jews, phoenicians etc. They now have a largely Arab culture.
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Mr McCain will have to come with all guns blazing that the President is right.
Republican ideology has to give in when country's security or finanical stability is at risk. restrictions to the deal yes but objecting to the deal is No No.
The debate is meaningless - Obama is young, impetuous and looking for glory. A President need not be an economic specialist. He has advisors like Bernanke and Polson and he should consider the advice, decide and then sell it to people, congress and senate.
A President does not have to debate about the options - NEVER. Just like he does not advice during war on the types of aircraft to use, or bombs to use or military to use - the Generals are there to take care.
The last two weeks are classic examples for Obama and the US people to know that the solutions are given by the experts which the President decides on the best option and sells to the people.
In times of unemployment and financial crisis Democrats will generally be favoured - there is no special Obama factor. He thinks he is great. He does not understand what Presidency involves especially if he thinks debating on this issue is crucial.
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I don't think Bush is being treated with "contempt" by Republican congressmen. Can you give a specific example?
As for lame-duck presidents losing respect near the end of their term being "unprecedented in modern times," do you consider Johnson and Nixon to be modern presidents?
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122. At 3:38pm on 26 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
#108 T1m0thy
Surely if the land was the unoccupied property of some absentee Arab landowners there would have been no one to have a war with.
All of the Arab states around Israel, perhaps. See this. Sample:
Fighting between the Arab and Jewish communities of Palestine began immediately after the UN decision to create a Jewish state in November 1947. Neighbouring Arab states declared that they would greet any attempt to form a Jewish state with war, while leaders of the Palestinian-Arab community promised a "fight to the death".
I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia for this. It is now admitted by even Israeli historians that the expulsion of the palestinian people buy terror and force was a declared aim of the Zionist Groups.
Clive James admits this, though he tries to justify if by saying it was necessary.
Oddly enough he does not make the same claim aboout Australia's Koories - presumably their expulsion etc was also "necessary".
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Magic (99),
Not so. Most was in "public" ownership, i.e. "state owned". See the Hope Simpson Report. Most cultivable land was tenanted under traditional forms of tenure, and by Palestinian Arabs.Look behind your brainwashed ignorance once in a while.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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122 chill0
'while leaders of the Palestinian-Arab community promised a "fight to the death".
Your own words chill0.
These were, I presume, the absentee landlords,. The word community implies a bit more than a bunch of absentee landlords.
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Chill0,
Palestine was a Country, according to Nelson's Gazeteer.In 1947 Arabs outnumbered Jews two to one, and the population overwhelmingly rejected the partition resolutions, but European and American guilt forced the UN to ignore its founding principle of self-determination and IMPOSE the "settlement" by partition. Of course, this never happened because the proto-Israeli terrorists and Haganah militias violently seized 77% of Palestine before the UN resolution (giving them 55% for 33% of the population) could be implemented.
The Rest is History and a running sore of injustice.
Salaam
ed
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112. At 3:15pm on 26 Sep 2008, TimothyR444
Oh, you made my day.
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dceilar @109: "Now you claim it always was Israeli. Typical half witted hypocrite American.
As Europeans we know colonialism when we see it."
Please don't mouth this racist b*****t on my behalf. This sort of generalizing and stereotyping is the soil in which holocausts and stateless nations are grown in the first place.
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Doug,
Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing. I think this may be one of those times. Haste is a killer!Act in haste, repent at leisure.
ed
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There is alot of anger towards Bush, not only for Iraq but for an economic meltdown that he hid from us until it was too late. Now the next administration will have to clean up the mess, and watching the way McCain is playing a bull in a china shop versus the measured calm, cool demeanor of Obama I know who is getting my vote and hopefully the vote of enough others.
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129 Thank you Simon
'It is now admitted by even Israeli historians that the expulsion of the Palestinian people buy terror and force was a declared aim of the Zionist Groups.'
The point I'm trying ever so slowly to make is that until and when the US and to some degree Europe behave in an even handed fashion towards both Arab and Jew. The 'running sore' that is Israel will continue to put us all at risk. The Israelis must be made to see that they cannot win this in the long run they have to make peace and the Palestinians must be given land.
The nightmare scenario of the Muslim states finally overrunning Israel and Israel going out in a blast of nuclear weapons is just too much to contemplate.
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Vsmani40,
It seems to me the impetuosity is coming from McCain. Obama is coolly keeping his counsel.Complain about this comment
Dougtexan, it's tempting to say "us" is the first person plural prononoun in the accusative case. In fact, "we" in the passage you quote means both American taxpayers in one usage, and poor and middle class Americans in another, so you have a point.
The larger issue remains that however necessary this bailout may be, many people consider it not just unfair, but a violation of the rules of the game on behalf of the rich and powerful.
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I see Harry Reid has just blamed the breakdown on, "guess who arrived in Washington". The gloves are really off.
The democrats are desperate not to be left holding responsibilty for a bailout with elections looming, which seems to be the GOP strategy.
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95. At 2:36pm on 26 Sep 2008, T1m0thy
Tim, I am asking as I don't know, what would be the answer to the very evident situation you have pointed out. Does the US not support Israel, say we end the armament and financial support, what would happen?
Is there a peaceful way out other than the methods being used now, Condi Rice, Talks and Intervention??
Your eloguent post show your expertise in this matter and I am just curious. Xie_Ming, Ed and yourself have been educating me for months now.
Thanks
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Oh Goody! He's coming after all!
Who'da thunk it?
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McCain is now saying he will attend the debate, but there's plenty of time before tonight to cancel a few more times. And I suppose that means he is resuming the campaign that was never really cancelled.
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139, RedWhiteandermblue
Thanks
I am one them that favors the self correction rather than the inflation. This bailout is just another in a line of bank failures, fraud, and theft.
Ed, correct,
Act in haste, repent at leisure :)
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#53, Jason, you will find that the average life expectancy of someone just born is 75, or there abouts. If you have made it to 72, you've got past many of the pifalls that result in premature death. The average 72 year old will live an average another 12 or thirteen years. You do the maths!
McCain may have had his health scares, but he can also afford the best healthcare (if his houses are still worth something).
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http://www.electiontaxes.com/
Play with this to figure your taxes under McCain or Obama
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#142, Ed, does this mean that we are now going to get posts saying that the chicken is coming home to roost?
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Jon Stewart's on the Dive of Death
Deja vu all over again
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Ref 77
"As far as I know, Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders (the Independents in the Senate) are in the Democrat caucus.
Are you saying that the Democrats won't even try to push a measure through Congress because of the Senate Independents ?"
Not at all. I am simply stating that they have a tenuous majority, because even though the Independents caucus with the Dems, Lieberman often votes with the Republicans.
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141 DougTexan
You are very flattering. I am no expert, my concern is firstly to get people both in the US and the UK to see the problem. I suspect that if the Israelis were told that the 'gravy train' was over they would finally wake up to the real gravity of their situation. We, the west, would have to guarantee their safety but the lands occupied by them illegally would have to be returned to their rightful owners. It would be very painful for the Israelis and certainly the end of the dream of growing a state for world Jewry in Palestine, but at least they would be allowed to live in peace and as someone else pointed out the are all Semites. Perhaps once the bitterness has died down, in a few generations they can learn to live together.
I did suggest that it might be a very good idea if the UN was moved to Jerusalem and the city made into the permanent home of the UN. This would take it out of the religious arena and as a small spin off I think would probably reduce the number of free loaders who currently are attracted to the UN because of it's NY base.
One thing is for sure it's getting worse and worse and if we don't fix it the result is likely to be a bloodbath and maybe a world war.
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Here's a joke to lighten everyone's mood this political season:
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by
a truck and dies.
His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems
there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts,
you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."
"No problem, just let me in," says the man.
"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do
is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you
can choose where to spend eternity."
"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the
senator.
"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."
And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes
down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself
in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse
and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians
who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him,
shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while
getting rich at the expense of the people.
They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar
and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who
has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a
good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator
rises...
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St.
Peter
is waiting for him.
"Now it's time to visit heaven."
So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls
moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a
good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and
St.
Peter returns.
"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now
choose your eternity."
The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would
never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but
I think I would be better off in hell."
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down,
down to hell.
Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a
barren land covered with waste and garbage.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and
putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder.
"I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here
and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and
caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now
there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look
miserable.
What happened?"
The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were
campaigning. . .
Today you voted."
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#134 et al
Racist? Give me a break! If you agree with the Israelis that the land is theirs because they lived there 2000 years ago then ergo you agree that native Americans should have their land back. Mexico should have its land back. That argument doesn't sound racist to me.
Are the Arabs in Palestine denied their State because they are black and their land taken over by white European settlers? As Europeans, we know colonialism when we see it!
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#124 Ed Iglehart
Catchy phrase - and American firms did supply Iraq with stuff that was used in chemical weapon making. It was not illegal at that time. However, see this. Sample:
Donald Rumsfeld certainly visited Iraq and he was certainly hypocritical about the use of chemical weapons.
Saying that he helped to supply them is another thing entirely. Do you have a link ?
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TimothyR444 # 112
".......and no doubt you and the other Brits on this very strange blog will throw yourselves into their waiting arms with gurgles and squeals."
Quite correct and they are wonderful, although I can only speak from my own experiences of marrying a Chinese. Perhaps you are p*ssed off that many work in your unatainable health care system and encourage their offspring to hit the books because they thrive on academic challenge.
By the way America already has 3.3million Chinese belonging to the middle class social stratum.and they are coming in their many hundreds of thousands every year. Currently, the Chinese constitute the largest ethnic group of Asian-Americans (about 22%] and Chinese migration to
the US is presently only surpassed by the immigration from Mexico.
Wikipedia
Live with it kiddo or give up visiting the doc, or eating take-aways.
Welcome to the land of the free?
Gonna put the Statue of Libertys' light out, or are you already in the dark?
ps We love you [ America] but we are having our doubts about you!
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#131 T1m0thy
You are confusing me with someone else. I did not say the Arabs were 'absentee landlords'.
Having said that, I do agree with it. Using the term 'absentee landlord' does not preclude there being a Palestinian Arab community in Palestine.
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150. At 4:56pm on 26 Sep 2008, T1m0thy
Thanks for answering, I as well don't see an easy way out. The disputed ownership of sixty years ago would be a court TV show or bloodbath alone.
Like the Idea of putting the UN there, maybe just Globalising Jerusalem, even most of Israel, making it 'property of the world' due to its historical significance.
Either way the Bible seems to have stated the out come, what started there will end there.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ref #149
Dominick I thought Lieberman votes with Democrats 90% of the time. his major disagreement is defense and foriegn policy.
Do you have different information?
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ref #156
Interesting how alll the Anti Israeli posters are so generous about taking over Israel jurisdiction over it's capital.
Israel is not the sore spot except for the intolerant but the shining example of religous freedom, enlightment and culture.
Trying wearing a Jewish Star or Cross in Mecca
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Questionable loans to Illegal Aliens as demanded by Democrats sunk a number of greedy spineless bankers; there is NO EXCUSE FOR AMERICAN CITIZEN TAXPAYERS TO SUPPORT THIS SELL-OUT PROPOSED BY MR BUSH AND MR PAULSON WHICH BENEFITS only GOLDMAN-SACHS. Those who made the mess have to clean up after their own selves - isn't that what you learned from your own Mother?
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village idiots, CEOs and worn-out heros, all rushing to Gotham city to save our Bush Administration and the top 1%
economic crisis or political crisis?
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I also cannot believe the number of Americans who are supporting McCain. But there are 300 million of us, and most do not support him. I hope the vote is not diluted by those voting for Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, and other candidates who have no chance of winning, even though they do present a variety of choice. And there are many who refuse to vote because they think all candidates are alike. This last administration should have resoundingly disproved that.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I almost feel bad for Bush. But obviously the more contempt the GOP shows for Bush, the more they can distance themselves from his presidency and give McCain a prayer at a win. And I guess a minority of them might even care about the taxpayer, who employs them, after all.
I don't know many people saying "Good show, John." Not a good week for him.
At least the debate's still on tonight.
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Magic,
According to the UN, Jerusalem was to be a "Corpus Separatum". This was aborted by Israeli aggression and violence.Israeli Occupation of Jerusalem is illegal under international law.
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123. Ed Iglehart:
"Andrea (85),
"That you should expect a nation to mirror your own world view may be the crux of the problem."
A fine summary of the present problem, but from the opposite direction you intend. "
******************
I wouldn't be so foolhardy to expect Europeans to share my world view. That's way too arrogant -- even for an American.
;-)
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Contempt? Definately. But I admit, I think Bush is handling this well, being very plain and forthright. Its a shame he's getting into his stride at the very end of his time in office - reminds of Tony Blair, perhaps?
I don't think American people are being impressed with McCain - Obama seems to be soaring in almost every poll. This is all being billed as a "disaster" for him in the media.
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138. Ed Iglehart:
"Vsmani40,
"Obama is young, impetuous and looking for glory."
It seems to me the impetuosity is coming from McCain. Obama is coolly keeping his counsel.
**********************
Obama is irrelevant to these bailout negotiations. He needs the debates, because that's the only place he has a speaking part.
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I wish there were another forum for all this middle-east stuff. Or at least moderators who would keep this forum on topic.
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kburns_ireland (#167), yes, even Huckabee is saying McCain made a big mistake in even suggesting that he might not go to the debate.
Nobody is fooled by McCain's posturing except fools.
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I'm clearly alone in this, but I think it was absolutely right that both Obama and McCain were at the White House yesterday. This is a serious situation and the fallout will continue into next year and beyond. How can there possibly be a political solution that will work if it does not have the support and understanding of the man who will be president in a few short months?
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Gary, can't you multi-task???
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Mr. Webb, you are so right-on it's a treat to read something factual. I have been a BBC advocate since the 60s when I used to listen to the BBC on short wave from some of the god-forsaken spots of the world I worked in. I appreciate the the BBC candor, please keep-it-up.
Here in the States there are about 25% of the population who still rabidly support president stupid. They are called neocons, remaining republicans are beginning to leave the bush ship. That unfortunately doesn't give Barack Obama a slam dunk for the presidency.
Thanks again for the opportunity to respond to your blog.
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169 Gary_A_Hill
Gary I'm sorry I started it, some of it was relevant to parts of the debate at that point.
I agree, so Justin can we have a blog for this. It is rather important even though the financial melt down of the US and maybe the world takes precedence.
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Timothy R444 wrote:
"China and militant Islam are the new powers that are currently gaining strength and confidence, and no doubt you and the other Brits on this very strange blog will throw yourselves into their waiting arms with gurgles and squeals."
"Militant Islam" is neither an economic or a military power, so it's irrelevant to any discussion about whether America's influence is on the wane. However, the US has been arming Saudi Arabia, the home of the decidedly militant and fundamentalist Wahabi sect, or perhaps that doesn't count as an alliance any more?
All countries make new alliances according to economic and political circumstances. I seem to remember the USA courting china when Nixon was President. So I suppose then Americans "threw themselves into their waiting arms with gurgles and squeals"?
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seanspa (#171), you seem to have swallowed McCain's line with the hook and sinker. McCain's returning to Washington was just posturing. Obama followed to avoid giving McCain a (phoney) issue to talk about. Neither Senator is on the Senate Banking Committee. They could easily keep abreast of the negotiations on the road, talking to the Senate Majority and Minority Leaders by phone, and return for a vote, if necessary. Going to the White House was just political showmanship.
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I am sorry to see the Zionist corruption coming back on this thread.
Their lies have been refuted several times in the past on previous threads, and it is a waste of time to go through the exercise again.
Is any non-Zionist interested in a rehash of the facts?
____________________________
One topic that DOES merit detailed examination in that of Iran.
Yes, Rumsfeld supplied weapons to Saddam to use against Iran and the Kurds.
(Interestingly, back in the 1918-1932 British Occupation of Iraq, Churchill also advocated the use of gas gainst the Kurds).
Iran's role has been entirely defensive. Its support of militias is to keep those enemies who threaten to attack it off-balance.
Those aggressors are Israel and the USA.
(Interestingly, Bush finally told Olmert that it would not support Israel in the latter's planned attack against Iran)
_________________________
I think Iran and Israel's aggressions and influence in the USA ARE worthwhile topics.
What say you?
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
No. 135 and 138 Ed
Would a Roosevelt Bank Holiday be helpful at this point?
McCain's recent behaviors strike me as being much like those of a "chaos junkie" suffering long term effects from an alcoholic military father and decades living the yellow alert lifestyle of a multi-generational military family.
Back in the day, it was not unusual for military dependents to be encouraged to re-invent themselves as they moved from post to post. Or as in McCain's family, from naval yard to naval yard.
b
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#171, Sean
No, you are not alone. I, for one, am with you.
What amazed me is that Obama, Biden and McCain were not all in the Senate this past week.
Point One - it is their job. Last I checked, they were all sitting senators with an obligation and duty to serve their constituents.
Point Two - one, if not two of these men are going to inherit this mess. I would think, if it were me, I would like to be in on the ground floor of these talks, negotiations myself and not have to depend on briefings.
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Gary,
My apologies, but some idiotic comments demand rebuttal, and, like it or not, the 'running sore' is at the heart of a large part of our foreign policy problems.
Peace to all.
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#175,
Jimmy Carter threw America's arms around China in 1979 when he normalized relations. It was not Nixon ...
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ref #165
That is why so many in the U.S have contempt for the double standards in the U.N
The U.N has no right to tell Israel where it's capitol should be.
If there want it in Jerusulem or Eliat that is thier business.
The U.N showed it can't be trusted ny their actions in Lebanon.
Thereis nothing in International Law that says a country can't put it's capitol where ever it wants
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171. seanspa:
"I'm clearly alone in this, but I think it was absolutely right that both Obama and McCain were at the White House yesterday. "
No, you're not alone. Polls show voters who favor McCain support his going.
Interesting what McCain's going brought out in the democrats: claims of a deal, claims that McCain killed the deal, and claims that he wasn't needed.
Reid needs to get his stories straight. It's not that hard to reference all his chiding of McCain for not being there. And no mention of Pelosi wanting the cover of a sizeable number of republicans voting for any deal.
Today, a CNN reporter said McCain had to leave Washington because the democrats would be incapable of reaching an agreement if it meant giving McCain any credit. Nice.
Here's an article about the insurance deal republicans are looking into:
Note to Paulson: The Key to Passing the $700 Billion Bailout Is Insurance
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#154
The Chinese people are wonderful - there is no arguing that. I have nothing but tremendous respect for their culture and history.
The CCP is a despotic, totalitarian regime that the Chinese people themselves either despise or ignore, both in China and abroad.
To whom will you be answering when China takes over?
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The Preferred Plan
Well worth reading the entire articleAt last, some common sense from a hedge fund man!
Peace to all
ed
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#176, Gary
You are correct that neither are on the committees. However, one of them will be president, trumping these committees, and it may sound totally illogical to you, but I would want to know the full extent by personally experiencing the events and not being briefed!
Threatening to not show up for the debate was idiotic. Not being on the Hill during these hearings is equally idiotic.
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Gary, I just happen to believe that actually doing something comes before campaigning. Now you can say that neither candidate would have any significant influence on procedings, but if so, neither should be running for president in the first place.
I posted some time ago about how I couldn't understand how the american public put up with candidates not doing the job they are paid to do. You appear to agree with alternative line that they are only paid to be on call, if needed. Nice work if you can get it.
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Gary, [why in the world is this being moderated???]
My apologies, but some idiotic comments demand rebuttal, and, like it or not, the 'running sore' is at the heart of a large part of our foreign policy problems.
Peace to all.
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183 MagicKirin
"Thereis nothing in International Law that says a country can't put it's capitol where ever it wants"
Ok we the Brits want our capital in New York. After all we took it from the Dutch so it's ours now.
Jerusalem is on Arab land and the biggest part of the problem. Please if you are going to give some input at least make it rational.
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Magic, whether you like it or not, the situation in the middle east affects us all. This isn't just something we can leave Israel alone to deal with, as their actions can and do rebound on all of us. Like many people, I am greatly concerned with the direction things are going. The hope in the 90s of some sort of resolution appears to be a distant memory.
Sorry, Gary, but we cannot wait for Justin to post another 100 threads on how bad McCainPalin are before we are allowed to voice our concerns.
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Chill0,
Any evidence or factual basis for this preponderance of "absentee landlords"? I offer in contrast, the Hope Simpson Report, which has some pretty exhaustive analysis of the landholding situation in 1930.And, no, I don't have a link implicating Rummy in any chemical sales. I do, however believe the USA did everything in its power to encourage the supply of all sorts of weaponry to Saddam in his war against our "common enemy" Iran. He was, at the time, our proxy.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Chill0,
As a matter of record, Jews owned less than 6% of the land in Palestine (~12% of the cultivable land) before the war of 48. This is from the "Survey of Palestine" provided to the UN by the British Mandatory authorities.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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110:
T1m0thy wrote:
Wouldn't like to make any real comment about GWB he's your president, but (the weasel word) when you do send him, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al to the International court on war crimes charges can you please take Tony Blair as well? "
2 questions
how Blair is viewed in the US?
were any others who would ordinarily lean republican, such as myself, turned off McCain by the Palin pick?
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McCain is NO QUITTER!
Without appearing to say, "I told you so", I
did make the off-handed remark that McCain
(is such a guy) that he would quickly finish the urgent matter for which he went to Washington, and get back to Missouri for the debate with Obama despite his earlier protestations to the contrary. To-day's news
reports confirm it.
He is not the person to run away from challenges, but would rather 'lock horns'
with the challenger, unless there was a higher call to duty, as in this case. But this is
a classic case of trying hard to meet both challenges.
McCain seems to be committed to the motto,
"Discretion is the better part of valor". His
indomitable courage as the war hero had been amply demonstrated not only in Vietnam, but also in the political sphere as well.
The outcome of to-day's debate hardly matters to him since he has proved himself
already, as the leader worthy to be at the
helm of affairs of the most powerful country
in the world and which plays a pivotal role,
along with the U.N for the maintenance of peace in the world as a whole.
As for his detractors who spoke too soon:
"He who laughs last, laughs the best".
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T1m0thy (190),
Don't expect rationality from that quarter.
;-)
ed
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Re 169
I'm not sure what on-topic is. Justin's little intro bit says
"My blog will be dominated, of course, by the US presidential election - but this is the world's most fascinating, open and complex place, so there's plenty for us to talk about..."
My point in putting that there is that it doesn't all have to be about the election, either from Justin or contributors.
Having said that, I think America's involvement in the Middle East is part of this election and a central part of how America is viewed around the world and so has a place and is "on-topic". Perhaps there is a place for a Middle East blog (she says hoping that she hasn't overlooked it) but I'm with Doug on this...thanks to those who intelligently make their point - and I am pleased that it is discussed on this blog. I think I learn a lot and am challenged to think about my views on a daily basis.
(PS I know I shouldn't comment on this, but I for one am pleased not to have to scroll passed comments with tinyurl's placed all the way through...a holiday for us all?!)
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Bush has earned the contempt of the Republicans in the house, and in the country.
We supported him, contributed to him, voted for him.
He sold us out. From the moment he took the oath in 2005, he showed his true colors.
He squandered his credibility with the people who rallied behind him, and now, effective power is passing from his hands to Mr. McCain and the House Republicans.
Reform? Absolutely!
Bailout? Never!
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168. At 6:17pm on 26 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
138. Ed Iglehart:
"Vsmani40,
"Obama is young, impetuous and looking for glory."
It seems to me the impetuosity is coming from McCain. Obama is coolly keeping his counsel.
**********************
Obama is irrelevant to these bailout negotiations. He needs the debates, because that's the only place he has a speaking part."
He hasn't run away though and he is not responsible for the degrading fiasco McCain blunderingly got involved in
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185. At 6:47pm on 26 Sep 2008, invisibleserendipity wrote:
#154
The Chinese people are wonderful - there is no arguing that. I have nothing but tremendous respect for their culture and history.
The CCP is a despotic, totalitarian regime that the Chinese people themselves either despise or ignore, both in China and abroad."
Well that is obviously not true.
But what is true is that the fateof the CCP rests with the people of China and absolutely noone else.
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ref 190
No timmy boy you act rational.
Jerusulem is on Israeli land they won the war.
Get over it, The Palestinians don't derserve anything.
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183. At 6:40pm on 26 Sep 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #165
That is why so many in the U.S have contempt for the double standards in the U.N
The U.N has no right to tell Israel where it's capitol should be."
The UN d is not required to condone occupation and oppression
"If there want it in Jerusulem or Eliat that is thier business."
Which is like saying if they want it to be in Cairo or Beirut it's their business.
"The U.N showed it can't be trusted ny their actions in Lebanon."
Which Israel admitted it broke the rules of war, after denying it first.
"Thereis nothing in International Law that says a country can't put it's capitol where ever it wants"
Except if it wants to put it where other people are.
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Oh Please Scrib-o-solomon
cut the hagiography and look!
You can put lipstick on your McCain but clearly he cried off the debate and campaign cos he has lost the thread.
then he goes to DC and what does he contribute?
A soundbite about bipartisanship
Wow.
He has not solved the problem and seems unable to detach himself from the incumbent lame-duck.
he also picked a VP candidate who has yet to demostrate that she can communicate on a subject with more than two sentences worth of substance. That's not my imagination, that's every TV show she's been on.
I think McCain has had his day, this campaign is an endurance race too far for him.
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When the Prez came out with "the market is not working" we burst out laughing. He's such a comical chap even when he's trying to be serious.
As for democracies and pseudodemocracies, it's like the young american lass who asked what language we speak in England - if it is french?
Guess from another perspective, all things start in US? - language, democracy, etc...
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Good to see the program on Nye Bevan other night. HE had a vision.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00dn9hl
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If it's something for the poorer it's socialism or redistribution of wealth...if it's the rich, it's supposedly something to benefit the economy - or save some bigwigs' bacon...pity, they weren't thinking of a rescue package when those folks were losing their homes. For them an economic Katrina. Only Lady Bush Snr. this time wasn't gleefully saying they never had it so good being refugees in a "nice" neighborhood.
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"But black Americans often have bad credit ratings or are the victims of discrimination, so they tend to be given sub-prime loans. And now, with a nationwide housing slump, they are facing disaster.
Mike Calhoon, of the Center for Responsible Lending, says: "Almost half of all African-American family mortgages are sub-prime mortgages.
"Anywhere from one in five to one in three will lose their homes. This stands to likely be the largest loss of African-American wealth that we have ever seen, wiping out a generation of home wealth building." "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6528387.stm
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"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054719
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#200, Simon
What is not true?
The CCP is a despotic, totalitarian regime?
Sorry - you are incorrect. Stop believing the PRC's public relations ...
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#200
Also, the fate of the CCP does not rely solely in the hands of the Chinese people but rather in the volume of international trade that circles through the PRC ...
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guess what?
McCain has travelled to Mississippi!
Quick get the news team there, he has reached his destination.
With him are Giuliani and company- reports say his entourage is confusing....
This am Huckabee said he was making a mistake not going to the debate.
Fresh from being cast as the cause of failure to agree a solution to the financial crisis. he is moving on to Mississippi but I don't get the impression there is a rudder under his boat.
I really feel this guy can only follow one thing at a time, he's a single issue campaigner, he can do protesting and causing a stink, but he shows no leadership.
The only thing he has said that had any steadiness in it was his report to us all that he was sure they'd reach a bipartisan deal.
In the last four weeks that's it!!
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The Bush Presidency is being spurned because few Americans support all of Bush's stands on policy. His Republican platform is supported by a coalition of groups who have visceral, negative reactions to "liberal" concepts like " a woman's right to choose" abortion, "death taxes" on inheritance, "environmental tree huggers" taking jobs and violating property rights, etc. The wealthy beneficiaries of Republican policies are few. The base of voters who put him in office are mostly average people that are moved by their gut reactions to issues.
This coalition is falling apart over the issue of the "Wall Street bail out" because most of the people that react negatively to these emotional buzz words are seeing their retirement savings evaporate and are over-extended with debt. They don't see their stake in the "Amercan Dream" represented by the needs of Wall Street and large corporations.
Some Republican members of the U.S. House of Representatives are feeling this heat, and want to keep their influence. John McCain wants to capitalize on his populist image. So they rebel to separate themselves from Bush.
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Anyone who trusts or values the BBC's view of America is an absolute fool.
Also, any country which would impose a "voluntary" 139 GBP yearly tax in order to fund a hopelessly biased entity such as the BBC is in no position to offer advice on political matters, democracy or much of anything else.
Here's a motto for your masters in Brussels.
The BBC, creating indoctrinated little fools for over 50 years!
Begone Justin, the world simply can't use you anymore.
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199. Simon21 wrote:
"Obama is irrelevant to these bailout negotiations. He needs the debates, because that's the only place he has a speaking part."
He hasn't run away though and he is not responsible for the degrading fiasco McCain blunderingly got involved in
************************
That's the point. He is not involved in anything nor responsible for anything.
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The contempt in which House Republicans hold Bush was best illustrated by the fact they let him call his "bi-partisan" meeting at the white house and then blew it up.
If during the day they felt they couldn't support the plan, the respectful way to conduct the negotiations is to get on the phone to the President and tell him so! He can find a way of backing out of the meeting or not call it at all and at the very least play down expectations.
The white house clearly thought they would have something to announce after the 'summit' yesterday evening.
I don't normally subscribe to the conspiracy theory of history, but Republican actions certainly looked like they were trying to bail McCain out. If they were it wasn't very subtle and it made the White House and the treasury secretary (who both candidates would probably ask to stay on I think) look like monkeys.
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Re: 201
Magic,
you say
"The Palestinians don't derserve anything"
What nothing?
It is that, that blind one sidedness. The inability to see humanity in people, in all children, that makes my blood boil.
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The past 8 years has been an experience that Americans have never endured. We have been raped and held hostage by this heinous regime since the election of 2000.
The citizens have been,shocked,terrorized,ridiculed, and beaten into submission.
We have become the victims of this leadership , the type of leadership that we have gone to wars against , in the name of decency and democracy.
I have seen the script that the powers have written , fed to us , episode by episode, to demoralize us.
The September 11th attacks,witnessed by my own eyes, from my 29th floor office window..
Two weeks prior, 2 young "foreign students"had randomly rang my office door bell and asked if they may talk with me; as they cased my unobstucted view of the twin towers.
As the buildings fell, I thought of them
They had known it was going to happen.
As I escaped through the confusion of the NY streets on September 11th, I witnessed the same foreign taxi drivers "pleasuring themselves" in their cars as the buildings collapsed. They knew that this would happen.
My suspicions grew daily. Each month, another twist and turn to keep us off balance.
They used every trick in the book to keep us unstable. They even engineered the housing explosion ( pyramid scheme) and implosion to profit at the worlds expense.
I watched the the plot unfold. Decent humans, like Colin Powell, were sacrificed at their expense. Lies and deceipt.
It was an almost perfectly scripted crime.
And they still might pull if off.
And if he doesn't, I am sure that his friends on the board of directors at Amway will find a nice job for their friend, Mr Bush.
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#204, alanskillcole, we're so done with this guy.
I never voted for him, but now that he's free,
to what country should we send him?
Personally, I'd like to see Bush head up Russia,
because if he can bring us down, he can bring
anybody down.
All we need is a sealed railroad car.
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ref #212
Well does your blood boil that Israel has made peace and is rewarded by terrorism. And the Palestinians elected these terrorists.
What do you expect? Should Israel suffer and reward the Palestinians for their terrible crimes?
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Magic, do you think that Israel is not suffering now? Are you really happy with the situation.? Because if not, something has to change!
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The common working person here in the States is sick of the constant crisises that are always involving the financial industries through there corruption and greed. Then to have the President turn his back on the cetral ideas of this party which is free market economy by bailing out Paulson's buddies on Wall Street just maked people madder that you can imagine. President Bush is done. He needs to stay out of this mess and let the market fix itself. It wont' stay down long, but will destroy a lot of the bums who caused this. But even they will be back. Just look at who is donating what to whose campaign. These companies send it to both sides so you know they will be back. Good Luck. Invest in Gold and Liquor and enjoy yourself. Cheers
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Magickirn... you're co-sponsor is broke, financially, morally and politically. you can no longer hide behind your free F16s and your merkavahs because you wont have the money for them. Time to get on with your neighbours me-thinks. Maybe lose a little of your famous hubris. Jerusalem is not yours no matter how long the fight will take. It just might be a good idea to offer an olive branch to the people whose land you stole while you still have that option. You might find them remarkably charitable.
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Why would you think that my blood would not boil at the death of innocent people? It does. Frequently. And of course that includes Israelis.
But you judge all Palestinians as if they are guilty of terrorism. They're not.
You don't consider why some Palestinians voted for Hamas.
And did Hamas win with a 100% of the vote?
I don't think that the solution is simple, but saying that one side, in your case the Palestinians, for others Israel, deserve nothing is an approach to the problem which will always end in failure.
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209 Texas_Blueblood
Only a fool would then use the tainted BBC to express his foolish opinions. I've seen Fox News, I know fools when I see or hear them.
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218 superpurpleandgold
Amen to that, and I hope they are more charitable than you. I think superpurpleandgold is right they probably will be.
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invisibleserendipity # 185,
Re the CCP - Chinese Communist Party.
Yes and no.
With China having a population approaching 1.4 billion [1400000000], it is
hardly surprising that the CCP treads on many toes, if the chinese themselves are not already treading on each others.
I do not feel any of us should be pointing fingers at them when a "civilised" country like the USA has been sold down the river to end up with the sorry state of affairs that
now exists.
But, looking on the bright side. With the 700 billion bailout, sorry rescue / stability package now being offered to keep various
wheels of the USA ticking over, it only works out as peanuts for each member of the Chinese population,[500$ per capita].
If they hold a lot of the IOUs on Americas present debts and have the ability to give further financial support it might be a good idea to build a stronger friendship?
And re taking over. As you so clearly state in your #206,on the trade stakes they have done that already.
On another tack. Have you read Eds earlier " Carrying Capacity" link? It paints a disturbing picture for us all.
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The KKK says it is going to be among the crowd at the debate site sans regalia so they can "blend" with the crowd. Ole Miss is going to have its hands full, but I admire them trying to put race behind them as an issue by hosting the debate.
Sheets need changing
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#30, T1m0thy,
There are some really interesting parallels between the Hoover era and Bush era, such as unbridled speculation in junk bonds, and virtually no regulation of financial systems or business. Although Hoover may have been the most reviled president, he was at least in part a victim of circumstance. Hoover was actually very intelligent, a self-made millionaire as a mining engineer. He rose to public prominence by his masterful management of humanitarian aid to the Low Countries during WW1. Unfortunately after the Crash of 1929, he felt bound by the Constitution to not allow the government to directly offer relief to those hit by the Depression. He did what he thought he could, which was--get this--offering tax breaks to big business in order to stimulate the economy, encouraging faith-based initiatives to locally help people in their communities with handouts, and encouraged people to spend their savings in order to stimulate the economy. Sound familiar? No, trickle-down economics didn't work then, either. On the other hand, he created the SEC to oversee the stock market, and tried to restore faith in the markets. He just didn't have the foresight of FDR to recognize what he was up against, and didn't feel that the Constitution gave him the power to intervene. He also was out of touch with the suffering of the people, as shown by his assertion that "A man isn't worth much unless he's made a million dollars by age 30" and "many people have left their previous jobs because selling apples on the street proved to be more lucrative." I mean, how ridiculous can you get?!?
I think our Presidential duds would be folks like Andrew Johnson, Howard Taft, Calvin "Silent Cal" Coolidge, and Warren Harding (the original "compromise choice of power brokers in a smoky room").
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#222, Waterman
It is not so easy to box the PRC, the CCP or their socio/political/economic gyrations into such a simple package. This has been the downfall of many countries and peoples through the course of their 5,000 years of history!
And, $500 per capita is a stretch - I would suggest you ask any one of the 200 million domestic refugees if it is worth it to them? They, who cannot even travel back to their native villages when they realize that finding work in the big cities, let alone education or healthcare for themselves and their children now that the Iron Rice Bowl is in fact gone an impossibility?
Or, you might ask a nongmin, whose annual salary is roughly US$220 per year if they think $500 is peanuts?
Or, possibly, you might want to ask city dwelllers in Beijing or Shanghai or the Pudong region how the current inflationary rates are effecting their lifestyles?
The Chinese are buying US debt because it is both politically and economically necessary. The PRC cannot allow the US economy to go down the tubes - if it does, the world's economy does and therefore so does the Chinese. Overcoming the Century of Shame is then not an option. Also, when Beijing saber rattles over issues like Taiwan, Syrian oil fields, selling arms to Africa - will the US, as in the past, go after them - or, now that Washington has sold out to them will they acquiese?
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#222, Waterman
One last point - I would never say the Chinese were uncivilized - please do not put those words in my mouth - whether I lived in the Chinese interior, Shanghai, Hong Kong or Taipei - I always greatly enjoyed the culture and people surrounding me.
Would like to thrash out ideas with you more on this topic - hopefully - the blog may sway into this territory again - but - must leave now to - funnily enough - pick up a Shanghaiese friend for dinner ...
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215, Magic.
Something is decidedly wrong with you. These are your views in a nutshell.
Arab = bad Israeli = good
Arab =terrorist Israeli = peace-loving
Arab = greedy Israeli = generous
Arab = subhuman Israeli = ubermensch
For a little light reading may I suggest "Mein Kampf."
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124. "And a chemistry set."
One of the best lines I have seen here.
Worst presidents: 18 Marbles, Agreed. Buchanan get the nod. When the country splits on your watch, it's tough to make excuses. Harding seemed so much like a crook it overshadowed his incompetence.
Either way, judging by the actions of foreign nations, GW Bush stopped being regarded as a President at least two years ago. If only he had had the gumption to resign then, instead of leaving the country rudderless.
30. Re: Hoover.
We tend to forget that Hoover had a huge reputation for public service and humanitarianism, and could have been nominated by either party. He was a great man, yet unequal to the challenges of the Depression. In 1929, who wouldn't have been ? Mellon, the financial genius of the day was in the cabinet, too. FDR had the benefit of starting in 1932 after rock bottom. So we remember Hoover, perhaps a bit unfairly as a bad President. The 1928 election bore some similarities to 2008, too.
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Here's a thought while waiting for the debate to start: Sen. Obama's personality and career trajectory are reminiscent of Woodrow Wilson. Not necessarily a compliment.
Sen. Obama has, perhaps wisely, stood aside while Sen. McCain engaged in self-destruction. The thing is, Sen. Obama probably doesn't have any better idea how to solve the mess either. Both are out of their depth. Where is President Bartlett when you need him?
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This American and all of her friends are NOT at all happy with this administration and the Republican nomination for President and Vice-President. McCain voted 90% of the time with the poorest leadership our country has ever had to endure and the election was questionable as to its legality as well. I cannot support a bail-out for the financial institutions that greedily created their own problems that is proposed by the administration that brought us the unconstitutional Pre-emptive Strike resolution and the illegal immoral Iraq War. This inept President has "cried wolf," once too often and I have no faith in the Republican candidate for 2008 election to have what it takes to dig us out of this totally unnecessary mess.
Barack Obama is a bright well educated young man who has signed up for the most difficult job in the world. The rest of the world recognizes his genius and compassion. I hope my fellow Americans vote for a future for their offspring and elect this statesman with a clear vision of what we nave the potential to become.
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228, Interested.
I agree that Herbert Hoover had some exceptional qualities. The crash overshadowed them.
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215. At 9:14pm on 26 Sep 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #212
Well does your blood boil that Israel has made peace and is rewarded by terrorism. And the Palestinians elected these terrorists."
Where and when did Israel make peace with the Palestinians?
Israel is not capableof such a gesture, it is founded on the idea of western superiority.
Despite all its talk it cannot admit the claims of the palestinians to ethnic equality - anymore then the Afrikaaners could.
The Israeli consitution (or what serves)makes this very clear.
When it decided to steal more land and starve thier children
"What do you expect? Should Israel suffer and reward the Palestinians for their terrible crimes?"
The world expects israel to stop oppressing 4 million people, for which there is no excuse.
Do you expect the Sudanese governemnt to reward the darfuris" for the "terrible crimes of the rebels?"
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229. Interested.
Yes, both Obama and McCain are out of their depth as regards the financial crisis. But so is everyone else.
There are basic problems with the economy. The bailout is just a band-aid. Extensive restructuring is needed. We have to take a hard look at outsourcing, trading practices, self-sufficiency, overspending and overconsumption. Economically "the American way" is no good.
As for financial institutions we need a harsh regulatory overseer. No band-aids here. To accomplish the last the last thing we need are the Republicans.
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It sure does not "boogle" my mind, and I voted for him! Just look at the people he has close to him and what they have done. Note who and what they are. See the evil results of what they have brought us. Just drive through America today and see for youslf---the nation is divided into armed camps. Bush never listened to loyal Republicans---and you wonder why he is so disliked? Most American citizens want Bush and Cheney taken to court for treason...this is not a joke! Citizens feel betrayed at the highest level of government. If a situation similar to this were to happen in the UK, the guy would have been tossed out on his ear long ago, not turned into a faux dictator.
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dceilar :"Racist? Give me a break! If you agree with the Israelis that the land is theirs because they lived there 2000 years ago then ergo you agree that native Americans should have their land back."
It's sad when you can't even read your own posts let alone the responses. I agree with the above statement and the impracticality of it's implications. Never said otherwise. Here is the comment that you made which I was responding to: "Typical half witted hypocrite American." Is that racism. Urmmmm. Yep. And you made it worst by speaking as though in lieuw of every european. I'm European and I resent that.
If you can't see the relevance of my comments now then it is very much a case of pot calling kettle black (in regard to the above "half witted American" quote).
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ref #227
Typical varation on the racist accusation.
I suggest you read some history.
I have mearly pointed out that Egypt(by the way an Arab nation) honored it's obligation and has peace.
But you live in the ridicolous moral equivilency world.
Sorry Isreal, Columbia USA and others are good
Leaders of Palestinians, Venezuela are bad.
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When this president and his accolytes . decided to attack a foreing country, and as a result an enormous tragedy has unfolded, the mass were behind him . So patriotic! Now , supporting him? not any more , why ?: the economy.
Shame on them!
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236, Magic.
You don't have to be German to be a Nazi. Your attitude towards the Arabs is the same as Hilter's attitude towards the Jews.
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George Bush gets criticism from all over the globe. Generally from the petty, powerless, riffraff of the world. Those who have screwed up their own countries to a fair-the-well, and look to the USA to bail them out. Please note how many people want the USA to "Do This or That," benefiting them and/or their country.
Right now, and for the foreseeable future, the USA has its own concerns. We lost 3000+ citizens to a bunch of Wahabi loonies. And, there's a bunch more of them who would love to get in the history books by doing the same thing. One thing you Europeans forget is that the primary duty of POTUS is the protection of the citizens of the US from all enemies, domestic and foreign. Everything else is secondary. And, George has done a superb job in carrying out his primary duties.
I wish our laws allowed George II to run for a third term. Or, that he could stay in office until these Wahabi loonies were as extinct as the National Socialist German Worker's Party. He would be elected again, despite "international opinion," because most Americans don't give a bucket of warm spit for international opinion. Fix your own problems. We have a war to prosecute.
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233. Marbles. BBC keeps blocking a response. Good night.
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test
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
invisibleserendipity # 225, 226
Apologies for the throwaway remarks about "500$" and "civilised" especially when passions run high on this blog, but I had hoped to try to link our spoiled lives here in the West with the previous
situation in the East, a country where its residents were brought kicking and screaming from its countryside 18 century ideas into the modern world. Not accusing you of anything, and in agreement with most of what I think you are trying to explain.
The last few years,weeks we too,in the west are all being dragged into the 21st century present day mess that our lifestyles have caused.
No man or country is an island any more, and change can only be made with a combination of cooperation and conversation whilst still accepting that there
will be extreme decisions that are required to be made by individual lands.
We all must now bite the bullet or like lemmings make the dash for the cliffs!
Chinas' domestic refugees and / or New Orleans' present displaced residents- are
they experiencing any differences in their level of individual suffering?
Beijing or Washington saber rattling and actions - peas in a pod!
Western Pro-life / choice and Chinas' contained non life "choice".etc etc All bitter pills to swallow if we are planning to leave any world behind for our grandchildren.
My question about Eds "Capacity" article which Ed so kindly linked at Justins " A
big one" at #35 with which I am in complete agreement falls on deaf ears for many. Just felt that with the dollars, billions and zillions being quoted that it found
a place in our worries.
I hope you enjoyed dinner with the friend from Shanghai.
It is and will remain a sweet and sour world for us all.
Regards wma.
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239 macmerchant
What's a POTUS? You have to remember that us Europeans, whom you despise so much, never had the benefit of your superior educational system and that when you use such terms we can't understand you.
Let me guess, it's an obscure Australian marsupial and you think it would make a good job of looking after your security. Well each to their own I suppose, but on second thoughts it probably would have made a better job of it than the simpering glove puppet you have at the moment
Take care, mind the blood pressure.
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we as a nation ( The US) are going to have to get used to the fact that the 20th century is over . cheap oil which fueled our ambtions is the last century is a thing of the past and new relaities are here in the twenty first century .
we are on the verge of economic meltdown , engaged in two wars that are bleeding us dry while we are reluctaint to address the fact that we cannot sustain our enegry consumption and remain afloat . The transfer of weath has already begun . China and the Arab states hold massive amounts of our debt . we have been willing to sell our soul to the highest bidder which has resulted in a declining economic base and infrastructure .
Unless we have a serious discussion of these issues the late great ,US will become another of the major powers of history to move to the backwaters of influence
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TimOthy (244):
This is, I believe, how the President Of The United States is referred to in briefing papers for journalists on tour with the president. His wife, or First Lady, is called FLOTUS.
That's an extinct swimming marsupial, possibly. But I think they're actually both obscure breeds of ostrich. . .
I tried once to work out equally snazzy acronyms for other presidents and prime ministers, but I could never really get it to work. I think they're just referred to as "the PM" or M. le President" or something like that, but I wasn't the kind of journalist who ever got invited on these trips; Justin will presumably know.
I suppose the Secretary of State when among the travellers must be "SOS", which seems quite appropriate?
Oh dear me; you do realise we're not allowed to make jokes here, don't you? But then I'm just another of these supercilious pinko-liberal-commie Euro-Brits. (Half-Brit, actually, hence the pseudonym, the other half of me is also in the EU, but there we are.)
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I live in Wasilla Alaska where Sarah Palin was mayor. I believe her selection tells a great deal about McCain's values and how he will make future decisions. There is no possible way that she is the best qualified person in America to step in for him as President when he dies in office. Because there is not enough space here, I have tried to give a detailed explanation on the web at alaskaquinn.com
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239, macmerchant.
Do you live on Mars.?
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Justin: The record of my previous postings has been hacked. Help please.
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247, Alaska.
I checked out the website. Unfortunately I can see no way to bring this information to the American public, at least not in its entirety. The best you can do is to try to get someone sympathetic and important in the media interested. Maybe Maureen Dowd, or even Keith Obermann. Even then they probably already have the information.
David Letterman is gunning for McCain so he is another possibility. Humor is more devastating then reasoned discussion and has fewer limitations.
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249, Interested.
Please explain. I don't know what you mean.
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Worst president in American history: Until George Bush, I firmly believed it was Herbert Hoover, the man who led the country into the Great Depression, dragging down the rest of the planet with us.
Like Bush, Hoover kept telling everyone that the economy was sound, right up to the crash of 1929. Like Bush, Hoover presided over an America collapsing under the weight of the unbridled greed of the industrialists, financiers and bankers of the era.
I think Bush will take the title of "Worst President in History" from Hoover. Hoover only destroyed our economy. Bush not only destroyed our economy, he started a war for profit that killed thousands of America's sons and daughters, he imprisoned people without charging them, without access to a defender or any possibility of getting a trial, and he tortured human beings.
Worse still, he did terrifying things to our Constitution. He has destroyed a frightening amount of our constitutional protections with that hideous Patriot Act of his, and has been responsible for turning us into a fascist-like surveillance society in which our rights to privacy have been violated.
Bush and Cheney are without question guilty of high treason and should be imprisoned for life for having brought our country to the brink of ruin for the sake of profit.
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251. Marbles
Many of my archived posts have disappeared, (as has the monster 1300+ string). On reflection, they must have broken the house rules, and the BBC has deleted them. In that case, unreserved apologies all around, and in particular to Andrea in NY who felt they were offside, bravely said so, suggested I was thick, and seems now to have been vindicated; and to "Thick American".
Apologies also to our hosts, Justin and the BBC, and to the readership more generally.
In the circumstances, I believe this will be my last post.
It has been a pleasure corresponding with all of you. Please spare a thought for Aquarizonagal (Item 380, Sept 25/08).
Yours,
I.F.
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I have been following the election for a while now. What I find amzing is that the race is still so close. Why do I find it amazing :-
1. The current government has presided over the biggest financial mess in history. And McCain has supported it in many policies and votes.
2. The current government has instigated one of the most unpopular wars in modern history. McCain has fully supported it
3. The economy is in recession and the current government has mis-handled it. Again, McCain has supported many of the policies.
4. McCain is part of a political party that has lost total credibility around the world.
In most countries, this would be enough to force out the encumbents or any aligned candidate. Even candidates that would have more to offer than the McCain. But not in the USA, not at this moment and NOT in favour of Obhama.
WHY ?????
Please don't tell me that's it because Obhama has no experience. America has elected candidates with far less political experience and perceived intelligence than this guy.
Its simple, Americans are still not prepaired to elect a non white president.
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At first, I was furious at Bush and doubted McCain. I wrote them nasty emails and used "Socialist" every other word. Then, I thought maybe Bush was responding to the lack of leadership in Congress (Pelosi and Reid). Dems wanted Reps to sign on or they wouldn't do it. So, Bush calls everybody together. They needed the Republican base (of which I belong), so they called in McCain.
However, McCain's base is quite willing to abandon McCain if he supports Socialism--even in the middle of an election campaign. McCain went to Washington as his McCain base flooded the inboxes of every Representative we could think of, saying NO NEW SOCIALISM! We signed petitions, phoned, and emailed Bush, McCain, Sarah, our home Reps, and Boehner. I sent probably 50 emails to the same group.
Boehner responded and did exactly as we wanted. Some of our changes are on the bill, but the entire idea of this crisis and bill will now be felt by every politician in Washington, hopefully in the form of a huge tax-revolt.
I forgave McCain and am back on board ONLY because he didn't endorse the Paulson Plan, he contacted the conservative caucus, and told Boehner that he supports Rebel Republicans. I heard Boehner say so on the radio.
BTW, Obama is a socialist. Maybe that's why radical right wing Rebel Republicans won't vote for that Democrat. You think?
Meanwhile, Bush is back on my WHAT? Pile. I can't figure him out. I didn't vote for him in 2000 because I couldn't figure him out then.
I'm happy with McCain and Palin, and for the way McCain included Rebel Republicans in the process. Dems didn't want to. Oh, they wanted Reps to sign on, but they didn't want our input. McCain made is so that they listened.
Not sure yet on this bill either. I haven't seen the actual copy, just summary sheets. I notice ACORN gets 20% on profits, which means we'll have another meltdown in the near future. But, there is a note on the draft that says Rebel Republicans don't like this one. It COULD be the thing that makes this bill and ALL Dem law. ACORN's syndrome of forcing banks to lend money to people without jobs is what got us into the mess. Some of those people were illegal aliens who moved back home and abandoned the houses. Well, you probably know the whole story now.
Thanks for the article.
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UPDATE FOR SPELLING (Sorry!):
At first, I was furious at Bush and doubted McCain. I wrote them nasty emails and used "Socialist" every other word. Then, I thought maybe Bush was responding to the lack of leadership in Congress (Pelosi and Reid). Dems wanted Reps to sign on or they wouldn't do it. So, Bush calls everybody together. They needed the Republican base (of which I belong), so they called in McCain.
However, McCain's base is quite willing to abandon McCain if he supports Socialism--even in the middle of an election campaign. McCain went to Washington as his McCain base flooded the inboxes of every Representative we could think of, saying NO NEW SOCIALISM! We signed petitions, phoned, and emailed Bush, McCain, Sarah, our home Reps, and Boehner. I sent probably 50 emails to the same group.
Boehner responded and did exactly as we wanted. Some of our changes are on the bill, but the entire idea of this crisis and bill will now be felt by every politician in Washington, hopefully in the form of a huge tax-revolt.
I forgave McCain and am back on board ONLY because he didn't endorse the Paulson Plan, he contacted the conservative caucus, and told Boehner that he supports Rebel Republicans. I heard Boehner say so on the radio.
BTW, Obama is a socialist. Maybe that's why radical right wing Rebel Republicans won't vote for that Democrat. You think?
Meanwhile, Bush is back on my WHAT? Pile. I can't figure him out. I didn't vote for him in 2000 because I couldn't figure him out then.
I'm happy with McCain and Palin, and for the way McCain included Rebel Republicans in the process. Dems didn't want to. Oh, they wanted Reps to sign on, but they didn't want our input. McCain made it so that they listened.
Not sure yet on this bill either. I haven't seen the actual copy, just summary sheets. I notice ACORN gets 20% on profits, which means we'll have another meltdown in the near future. But, there is a note on the draft that says Rebel Republicans don't like this one. It COULD be the thing that makes this bill an ALL Dem law. ACORN's syndrome of forcing banks to lend money to people without jobs is what got us into the mess. Some of those people were illegal aliens who moved back home and abandoned the houses. Well, you probably know the whole story now.
Thanks for the article.
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Just found this one the web:
Thought readers might be interested.
Rank and file GOPers not thrilled by deal
By Jackie Kucinich
Posted: 09/28/08 02:39 PM [ET]
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/rank-and-file-gopers-not-thrilled-by-deal-2008-09-28.html
Several House Republicans announced opposition Sunday to a tentative agreement on a massive bailout for troubled banks that was reached by congressional leaders from both parties.
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.) wrote on Twitter.com, "Sunday morning. News channels reporting a deal has been reach. Funny, somebody forgot to tell Congress. No details. Arm breaking begins soon!”
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) urged fellow Republicans to oppose the deal in a letter from the Republican Policy Committee.
“The decision to give the federal government the ability to nationalize almost every bad mortgage in America interrupts this basic truth of our free market economy," Pence wrote. "Republicans improved this bill but it remains the largest corporate bailout in American history, forever changes the relationship between government and the financial sector, and passes the cost along to the American people. I cannot support it."
Pence added, "Before you vote, ask yourself why you came here and vote with courage and integrity to those principles...If you came here because you believe in limited government and the freedom of the American marketplace, vote in accordance with those convictions."
click link to read the rest of the article.
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
and if the moderators here posted the other link that I offered, they might do this one too. It's a PDF of the "Discussion Draft" (the bail out bill).
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252, gmlaster.
I would go you one further. Bush and Cheney should be tried as war criminals. Almost one million Iraqis have died.
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Re: 253.
Dear Justin:
Now I really am confused. The postings that annoyed Andrea, that did not seem to be available on Saturday, are there now, so that can't be the correct explanation.
Why would some postings disappear, and not others ?
Has someone complained about them ? if so, who ? How do you find out ?
Have they been hacked or accidentally deleted? What is going on here ? How very odd.
Obviously there is something about this site that I do not understand yet. It might help if there were a re-direct link to tech support, perhaps.
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