Eagleton?

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• 1. At 5:56pm on 02 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  Justin,
  
  Quite possibly. To quote Douglas Adams:
  
  'If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands'
  
  Hopeful Sam

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• 2. At 6:06pm on 02 Sep 2008, tigermilkboy wrote:

  Justin,
  
  I had just remembered Eagleton myself. Are you somehow suggesting Palin is the new Eagleton?? Surely not, you sly old devil!
  
  Keep up the good work!

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• 3. At 6:08pm on 02 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  
  I agree that its possible - I have been feeling sorry for the people who must be trying to draft a convention speech for her. What subjects do they include- family values, (don't go there) patriotism (Alaska First), experience (of mending potholes) foreign affairs (knows nothing about them)pork barrell politics (Director of a 527 Group)etc etc
  
  It just doesn't work.
  
  The great danger for the Dems would be if she should resign and blame pressure on her family. Thankfully Obama has seen this one coming and said that he would fire any of his staff who were to go after the family angle.
  
  If she goes, it will be nothing to do with her family - which she was quite prepared to sacrifice less than a week ago. It will be because she was a shockingly inappropriate political choice.

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• 4. At 6:10pm on 02 Sep 2008, ProfCapelo

  This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.

• 5. At 6:10pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  Do you use Wikipedia merely because it shows up first on Google?
  
  Here's The New York Times' obituary on Thomas Eagleton.
  
  If Palin is thrown overboard in a couple of weeks, then the comparison to Eagleton will be apt, but I don't think that's likely to happen. Eagleton withheld information which many people believed went directly to his capacity to govern under stress. Palin has not.

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• 6. At 6:14pm on 02 Sep 2008, tigermilkboy wrote:

  Justin,
  
  I am still curious to know what the Clintons are expecting 'if' Obama wins in November? We already know Hilary will make another run in 2012 if Obama loses. But what does an Obama victory mean for the Clintons? Supreme Court? Secretary of State? Am I alone in thinking she and he must have been offered some position in an Obama future? The Clintons do not seem to be ones to go out quietly.

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• 7. At 6:15pm on 02 Sep 2008, cjreakirt wrote:

  Well, "Michael" Palin still hasn't been formally nominated, so there's still some wriggle time. Tim Pawlenty is probably sitting anxiously by the phone at this very moment.

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• 8. At 6:18pm on 02 Sep 2008, justcorbly wrote:

  We'll see. Too early to tell.
  
  It's the risk McCain took when he selected someone who hasn't be subjected to years of media scrutiny, regardless of how thorough his vetters may or may not have been.
  
  My problem with Palin is, first and foremost, that I don't agree with her politics. She's wrong and I'm right. Simple as that.
  
  I'm also troubled that for so many evangelical conservatives the fact that Palin is "one of them" is obviously more important than any other criteria. That's a dangerous way to select leaders.
  
  

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• 9. At 6:23pm on 02 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  Deadlines are approaching for Voter Registration...make sure you are registered and pass this around to friends and family:
  
  REGISTER TO VOTE: http://www.declareyourself.com/
  
  
  IF YOU ARE LIVING ABROAD and need to register: https://www.overseasvotefoundation.org/overseas/home.htm
  
  DO IT NOW!
  
  Vote early and often!
  ed

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• 10. At 6:28pm on 02 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  John McCain seems to have picked a lemon as a running mate, but surely this man is dead?
  
  No question about keeping his mouth shut I suppose.
  
  Can one select dead people as VP?

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• 11. At 6:28pm on 02 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  #7
  
  Andrew Sullivan is predicting Mitt Romney (more fundamental religion, he's a Mormon).
  
  Whoever it might be, it will be a decision imposed by the GOP and any of McCain's famed "maverick" tendency will be put to bed for ever. In fact, I would think that if he were to be elected after this debacle he would soon be "retired" due to ill health and the GOP man would take over.
  
  Mind you, if he were to be elected after all this, the phrase "only in America" would really come into its own.
  
  

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• 12. At 6:31pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  Oops, the link to The New York Times' obituary didn't show up:
  
  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/washington/05eagleton.html

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• 13. At 6:45pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  The tip-off will be if McCain announces that he is behind Palin "1000 percent."

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• 14. At 6:51pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  It's hard to see McCain dumping Palin like McGovern dumped Eagleton.
  
  McCain's a completely different character.

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• 15. At 6:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, David_Cunard

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 16. At 7:07pm on 02 Sep 2008, MinnesotaGuy wrote:

  If she does step down due to family pressure, I'm not sure how the democrats can go after McCain. If they use this as an example of his tendency to jump into things without thinking it through, McCain could call bully on Obama, attacking Pallin while she's dealing with family issues.
  
  It will certainly be a fine line to walk. Either way, doesn't this election keep getting better and better? I'm having a ball watching the news every day now. It's actually going to be a bit of a letdown when the election is over.

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• 17. At 7:15pm on 02 Sep 2008, mars_central wrote:

  A few points from Stephen Colbert on Palin to make you laugh and think.
  
  Experience: She's been governor for 20 months, but the nights are longer there so that's like 36 years on the senate.
  
  Women's Progress: That's right, Sarah Palin is going to shatter the highest, hardest glass cieling in the land... Vice President. Alot of people are saying that she is being used as a cheap political ploy, but that's just petty cynicism. This is historic, for the first time in America, a woman has reached the highest levels of being used as a cheap, political ploy.
  
  He then plays the video form 31st July 08, where she says that she doesn't even know what the VP does. I don't know much about Eagleton, though I dare say he knew what the VP's job is.

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• 18. At 7:15pm on 02 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  What a badly handled muddle all this is. It seems to me that McCain and Palin thought that they didn't need to say anything about the daughter's pregnancy and that it could be quietly dealt with after the baby was born.
  
  They then threw caution (or reality) to the winds and allowed the daughter to be filmed carrying her baby brother. Her shape, and the strange tales about Palin's behaviour at the time of the birth, then led to the rumours of Palin actually being the grandmother.
  
  Then they had to admit the truth.
  
  Which would not have been a big deal if, at the same time, Palin's lie about the bridge to nowhere, her membership of the AIP, her participation in pork barrell politics and her inexperience in all matters presidential, had not been coming to light.
  
  The only conclusion is that McCain and his handlers couldn't organise a party in a brewery.
  
  

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• 19. At 7:19pm on 02 Sep 2008, undrgrndwmn wrote:

  I've followed John McCain's career for some time now. I voted for him in the 2000 primary. He always struck me as a man of conviction and a certain old-school civic-minded character, and I respected him for that. Even if I didn't agree with some of his socially conservative views, I thought that his ability to compromise on tough issues and the bipartisanship he demonstrated throughout so much of his career made him a far better choice than Gore or Bush or anyone else in the field that year.
  
  What a difference 8 years makes.
  
  He comes from a different time, when religious faith, although taken for granted in Presidents, wasn't trotted out in the hypocritical ways it has been since the late 1970s. I heard a rumor on CNN that he may tell the American public that if elected, he won't seek a second term. Is he trying to hint that he'll use the Christian right to get elected and then abandon them once in office since he won't have to worry about re-election? Is he betting that America might trust him to live to 76 but not 80?
  
  What would his agenda truly be if he got elected with no thought of a second term? Would he be the old McCain? Or is this McCain the real McCain?

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• 20. At 7:20pm on 02 Sep 2008, berlinmauer wrote:

  Justin,
  
  1. To prove his individuality and 2. to gain politically from nominating a woman it seems that McCain has put himself before country. He could have rightly gained from both - but with a proper validation process.
  Can we rely on him to evaluate risky decisions as President ?

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• 21. At 7:23pm on 02 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #14. AndreainNY wrote: "It's hard to see McCain dumping Palin like McGovern dumped Eagleton." But not too hard for Mrs Palin to realise that she made a mistake in accepting the offer: 'her family must come first' would be the likely reason.
  
  A pity the Mods didn't care for the Daily Mail link I posted at #15, but anyone can readily find it, together with Mrs Palin's reported views on affirmative action, supposedly by The Wasilla Frontiersman.

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• 22. At 7:24pm on 02 Sep 2008, pdlodge wrote:

  The McCain campaign has released a PDF of her voter registration. It shows her as a Republican since 1982. Obviously, any change to the AIP would be noted.
  
  The 2008 election may well be remembered for the end of journalism. I've never seen such bias towards one candidate (Obama)

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• 23. At 7:48pm on 02 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #9
  
  A timely reminder Ed, nice job. As Rod from Avenue Q says across Times Square:
  
  'Not voting Sucks!'
  
  Sam
  

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• 24. At 7:54pm on 02 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #16
  
  Easily. The Dems are not attacking her, yet. She's doing it to herself and in the media vacuum the convention left, what else is there to talk about? If she bows under pressure they can just say 'John doesn't get it'.
  
  Bird Dog Sam

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• 25. At 7:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gordonskene wrote:

  The current situation with Palin's family is unfortunate and shouldn't be the focus of attention, and I agree with the Obama camp in decrying this as a legitimate issue. The reason? It's a smokescreen to detract from the real issue which is Palin's ability to be VP, which she is clearly and undeniably unqualified for. Despite paper-thin arguments, no one in the McCain camp has been able to site one Executive decision she has made that would place her in the category of "one heartbeat away" from the Presidency.
  
  Here is the problem - American loves scandal and this particular scandal has mouths watering because the sheer hypocrisy that it addresses within the Religious Right that has been exposed time and time again over the past few years.
  
  It is the "do as I say and not as I do" stance that has many on both sides of the political spectrum reeling in disgust that yet another candidate who espouses one set of beliefs in public, cannot abide by them in private.
  
  It is the pious righteousness that has many angered. It is now the wave of "I told you so's" and mocking laughter that are taking center stage now. Politics somehow be damned for the present.
  
  My problem with Sarah Palin is that she simply is not capable of being President of United States. My problem with McCain is that he had every opportunity to pick qualified and capable women as running mates, Olympia Snow and Kay Bailey Hutchinson are but two examples, but he chose gloss without substance. It is, without a doubt an insult to the American people and American women in particular that he made this choice. I know they are not buying it, and to pretend they are is a grave miscalculation on McCain's part.
  
  Will she bow out? I can only hope she would. But I suspect her ego is such that it would not be considered. She is portrayed as "feisty" but that, as we all know is something of an Achilles Heel.
  
  The world laughs and we quietly roll our eyes in disgust.

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• 26. At 7:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, robzaba wrote:

  "In 1972, Richard Nixon appeared unbeatable. When Senator George McGovern won the Democratic nomination for President, virtually all of the high-profile Democrats, including Ted Kennedy, Walter Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, Edmund Muskie[2] and Birch Bayh turned down offers to run on the ticket."
  
  Justin, are you implying that the Reps turned down the opportunity to be VP thinking that McCain cannot be elected President?
  
  Or that Palin might have to step down?
  
  
  Both are feasible, I guess. Meanwhile the 'wives' are giving speeches tonight, and hinting at Dem. sexism as a defense... and tomorrow we have Palin herself unleashed upon the boggle-eyed delegates, and more revelations to come no doubt...

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• 27. At 7:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  ProfCapelo "No truth without proof" Oh, that won't stop a liberal though. If 'you' say it, it must be true because you 'claim' to be a professor.
  
  Sorry JW, she's not going to be dumped, not because I say so, but because she has excited the Republican base. Further proof is in how defamitory and riled the dems are over her being picked. JW for one, and many of the above posters.
  
  She's what the Liberals have said for decades that a "Woman" should be. Strong and Independant, 'self reliant' with such strenght that she can do it all. Family, career, her own life and mind. Such a stronger version of Hillary, rode no-ones tail to the top, just her own effort with the support of 'her husband', a true American family, that excites all of Americas families.
  
  Laughter in the news room over her pick? We'll see in November.

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• 28. At 8:02pm on 02 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  And it keeps getting better: Palin hired Silver who appears to have had very close ties to Abramoff ...
  
  She should, of course, have simply declined in the first place: she could easily have argued for needing to spend time with her family and Alaska being a big enough job ... but who can resist the vanity of human wishes ....
  
  Of course, if she does step doen then the next story will be did she have a moment of enlightenment, or was she pushed. And there is also a vieo of her telling a congregation that Iraq is God's plan ...

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• 29. At 8:05pm on 02 Sep 2008, neil_a2 wrote:

  Is it the same political leaning that is criticizing Palin that is burning trash bins outside the Republican convention?
  
  Eagleton pandered to the generation that did not respect anything but itself. (free sex, anti-war, anti-authority, pro-drugs, share-the-wealth, challenge-everyone, do-not-question-us, protest-in-search-of-a cause, ...)
  
  His selection was to mobilize and draw the vote of that group.
  
  The first Watergate cover-up was to hide Eagleton's history. The second, of course, was to cover-up the unlawful effort to find this information.
  
  It appears the legacy of that generation still does not respect anything but itself.

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• 30. At 8:19pm on 02 Sep 2008, ProfCapelo wrote:

  Exactly why is my post #4 detained by the moderators, as with #3 under 'events, dear boy.events!"
  
  Just opinions, with no foul or offensive language. In this case i made a reference to news about Sarah Palin's apparent membership of alaka Independence Party, and it is well documented here: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] and [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] .
  
  

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• 31. At 8:21pm on 02 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  Of course, there is the possibility that McCain may be playing a blinder here and did properly vet Palin ....
  
  First select a darling of the Conservative right having established that she has so many flaws that will quickly be revealed she will prove unsustainable as a candidate. Then, having had her withdraw, appoint who you wanted in the first place because (a) time will have run out; and (b) the evangelicals will have had their chance and blown it ...
  
  Justin, I suggest you watch the smile on the face of Tom Ridge ....

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• 32. At 8:25pm on 02 Sep 2008, timpressiveone wrote:

  It seems to me that an awful lot of people are jumping to conclusions about Palin. The suggestion that she may be a flop like Eagleton seems highly premature. It would seem to be based more upon prejudice than anything else.
  
  It is entirely possible that she turns out to be a weak candidate, it is also quite possible that she will turn out to be a very useful addition to the team. We will know better once we've seen more of her over the coming weeks and in particular the in the debate with Biden. until then speculation of this sort is grossly premature.
  
  

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• 33. At 8:27pm on 02 Sep 2008, Joffan wrote:

  If the news of Palin's selection had been leaked, and confirmed in a "no denial" kind of fashion, then I'd have said that Sarah Palin is a stalking horse, waiting the Dems to commit themselves to positions against her that could be countered by the "revelation" that the true VP pick is someone else.
  
  But that isn't how it happened - McCain stood alongside her, giving the full weight of his candidacy to her selection. A bizarre choice that perhaps assumes that America prefers looks to policy.
  
  In fact the only way that this could be a stalking-horse set-up is if McCain is the stalking horse, and is unceremoniously dumped during the convention, or perhaps refuses the nomination. Drama ahead, for sure, but which one of a million possibilties?

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• 34. At 8:31pm on 02 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  32, tim
  
  I suspect Palin was premature before we were ;)

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• 35. At 8:32pm on 02 Sep 2008, ProfCapelo wrote:

  #27DougTexas
  
  I suppose anyone who disagrees with you on any one issue is a liberal then? If you have read my previous post, you'll realize, if you care, that i'm neither liberal nor conservative, or any such categories. I am for the truth, and want all the questiions to be asked. Simple as that. I never said her membership of the group is true; i've referred to news about it, which can be confirmed or refuted.
  
  There are specific information laid out here http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html in respect of her possible membership. Those information need to be spcifically refuted

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• 36. At 8:36pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  neil_a2 (#29), it only takes a handful of badly behaved individuals to make a ruckus. The vast majority of people who oppose the McCain-Palin ticket do not approve of such conduct.
  
  Your theory about Eagleton doesn't hold water. Hardly anybody outside of his own state knew who he was at the time of his selection. He was picked because there were no candidates of greater stature available and because he withheld the facts of his medical treatment from the vetters. Had he not had that problem, he would have been a solid enough running mate, but McGovern still would have lost big.

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• 37. At 8:46pm on 02 Sep 2008, proles wrote:

  Thomas Eagleton what? Try Geraldine Ferraro Zaccaro, another vice-presidential non-entity nominee who's chief attribute was that she was a female candidate and allegedly would attract uncomitted marginal voters for a ticket in trouble. The selection backfired stupendously, Ferraro was a dud on the stump and lost as many votes as she brought in, gaining the Party and her patron Mondale nothing. Her hubby, a real estate magnate in the sleazy New York metro market turned out to have a few skeletons of his own in his closet and wasn't too thrilled to have the glare of the national media spotlight trained on him, anymore than some of Palin's wayward family members. Mondale/Ferraro got trounced in the general election, the rhetorical "glass ceiling" notwithstanding, and "history-making" Geraldine went on to a throughly lackluster public afterlife as a political pundit and Party hanger-on, without much further notice; probably the same fate as Palin can expect either sooner or later. It's embarrassingly obvious that Palin wouldn't have even have made the long list let alone the short list, of prospective McCain running mates if it wern't for the fact that she is female and a 'fresh face' and that's all. The rest is turning out to be a liability. The bipartisan hypocrisy of American politics and American society is on full display as the glaring contradictions of the "better educated" class once again come to light. Most people probably won't much care about Palin's pratfalls because they wern't going to bother to vote in a sham election anyway, for Republican or Democrat candidates - male or female - who have no beliefs other than their own crass self-interest and no values other than those of the ruling class they serve.

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• 38. At 8:47pm on 02 Sep 2008, ChandraSF

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 39. At 8:51pm on 02 Sep 2008, functor wrote:

  John McCain is in new hell. If he doesn't remove Palin from the ticket he will have to spend rest of his campaign to defend Palin and her scandals in media instead of forwarding his own candidacy. On the other hand removing Palin from the ticket will raise serious questions about McCain's Judgment.
  
  
  Republican campaign is down the drain!!

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• 40. At 8:53pm on 02 Sep 2008, neil_a2 wrote:

  #36 Gary
  
  Eagleton's views on Vietnam were known at the time. They quickly surfaced when he got selected.
  
  Granted, he was not known prior to selection.
  
  The generation I criticize is my generation.
  
  

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• 41. At 9:00pm on 02 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  Alaskan Independence Party has some members that advocate the secession from the US, Palin is not one of them.
  
  As to experience, NObamas experience in 'running my campaign' is laughable.

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• 42. At 9:11pm on 02 Sep 2008, AvensisTom wrote:

  Palin is just a ploy to attempt to grab the Ron Paul voters ... of course it will never work.. but then the Diebold electronic voting machines are rigged anyway so the whole election will be a fraud (again) anyway.
  
  Also, why the media blackout on Ron Paul? He was cheated out of the GOP and was the most popular with the public.
  
  Real pity the BBC is not covering the alternative convention:
  http://www.campaignforliberty.com
  
  as this is the last chance for the US to elect an honest President who can deliver liberty and freedom and fix the financial mess that the US has got itself in
  
  Do us a favour, and cover Ron Paul - even as a Brit I want to hear about him as his message is a clear change, a revolution. And he still has a chance to be selected by the republican delegates.
  
  At some point you wont be able to ignore him - so why not hedge your bets and stop this media blackout of his campaign?

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• 43. At 9:16pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  neil (#40), that's my generation, too. We voted for McGovern because he promised to end the war, which had been going on for eight years by then. We would have done so with any choice of running mate. Call that "pandering" if you wish. Eventually we did get out of Vietnam anyway, with nothing to show for it but a new category of restaurants and some fine French (Vietnamese) bakeries.
  
  At least, with the reelection of Nixon, we got the entertainment value of the Watergate hearings, and the pleasure of seeing John Mitchell go to prison.

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• 44. At 9:17pm on 02 Sep 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

  Interesting point Justin...are you suggesting that McCain go for Eagleton as his new running mate? Certainly his being dead would make McCain appear younger. Is there anything in the constitiution that explicitly states the VP must actually be alive. Kim Il-sung has been dead for 14 years and it hasn't stopped him remaining president of North Korea so there is a precedent.
  
  You're all doing very well !!

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• 45. At 9:22pm on 02 Sep 2008, justcorbly wrote:

  #22 (pdlodge):
  
  >>"The McCain campaign has released a PDF of her voter registration. It shows her as a Republican since 1982. Obviously, any change to the AIP would be noted."
  
  That means nothing. Palin could have actively participated in the AIP and her voter registration would not reflect that.

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• 46. At 9:29pm on 02 Sep 2008, Justianus wrote:

  Eagleton?
  
  No, not really. After Palin, I doubt anyone will ever mention Eagleton again.
  
  And perhaps, in time, we might also get beyond this extraordinary "McCain = maverick = good" image, and realise that, for all his qualities, the guy just isn't cut out to be president of anything.
  
  Of course, it may take a new war or two to get there. And thousands of US deaths (and hundreds of thouands of nondescript other deaths). And a great deal of everyone shouting "USA - USA!" even as the body bags come flying home.
  
  But who knows? Edward V111 abdicated, because of love (and who remembers him?). Ezra Pound wrote the greatest American poems ever behind bars in an Allied prison after World War II (he was a facist). And God destroyed the entire world in Noah's time, because he felt things were getting a bit antsy.
  
  Eagleton? Surely not. We've bigger fish to fry.

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• 47. At 9:30pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  32. timpressiveone: "It seems to me that an awful lot of people are jumping to conclusions about Palin"
  
  It's a mix of bigotry and wishful thinking.
  
  What will be interesting to study afterward is the left's wildly negative reaction to Palin, a woman, a mother, a wife, nominated as the first female VP of the Republican Party, who lived by her convictions, but whose fatal flaw was that she was a conservative.
  
  What this has demonstrated is that feminists are supportive of women whose viewpoints they share.
  
  The truth is this is a sad and sorry day for feminism. It is now officially dead.
  
  This has also shown me how bigoted the left can be -- always with the justification that they are pointing out the ignorance of those they impugn (naturally).
  
  

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• 48. At 9:37pm on 02 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #29
  
  Nope, that's a whole new generation of people who don't give the Republicans the respect they deserve for their outstanding stewardship over the past 8 years. ;0)
  
  Us old timers mellowed, got married, had families, chilled out, travelled, settled down and irritate the looney fringe on Blogs now. It's much more comfortable.
  
  Leisurely Sam
  
  

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• 49. At 9:42pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  What I want to know about this secessionist AIP group in Alaska is whether Vladimir Putin is behind it.

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• 50. At 9:47pm on 02 Sep 2008, Medea wrote:

  Can she be removed from the ticket after she's nominated at the convention?

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• 51. At 9:47pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  AndreainNY (#47), you seem to be unclear on one essential point. In a partisan political election (which this is), the whole point is to support the candidates who share your viewpoints.

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• 52. At 9:53pm on 02 Sep 2008, AsaScot wrote:

  The Palin families problems are their own business as Senator Obama has said but the judgement of Senator McCain in choosing Sarah Palin is definitely open to question. Is anyone seriously going to say she is the best Republican choice to actually serve as VP or President in the event of something unfortunate happening to McCain?
  The choice of Sarah Palin was a cheap stunt to try and grab disgruntled Clinton supporters and now its blowing up in McCain's face.
  Also I can't help but laughing at the outrage of some of the posters here about 'Liberal' attacks on Palin, does the expression 'What goes around comes around' mean anything to you? The Republicans have spent years perfecting the art of innuendo and smear and now the media monster they created has come back to bite them.

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• 53. At 9:57pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  PNDStevens (#50), sure, and Eagleton is a precedent. That's Justin's topic in this thread.

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• 54. At 10:00pm on 02 Sep 2008, invisibleserendipity wrote:

  #47
  
  It is not part of a vast left wing conspiracy. I am of the right and Palin does not illustrate my social views whatsoever. But, silly me, I also believe in separation of church and state.
  
  The rumor inside the Beltway is that McCain wanted to chose Lieberman but was told there would be a floor fight if he did. Personally, I wish that he had - the GOP would have imploded and from the ashes maybe a GNP (Grand New Party) may have risen ...

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• 55. At 10:13pm on 02 Sep 2008, DominickVila wrote:

  Ref 47
  
  "What this has demonstrated is that feminists are supportive of women whose viewpoints they share".
  
  Most women, like most men, vote for the political candidates whose vision and priorities are closest to their convictions, concerns, and goals. Gender and ethnicity, at least in theory, should not be a determinant factor.
  The fact that many women reject Gov. Palin's candidacy on the basis of qualification does not mean they are traitors to their gender.
  My wife is a Hillary supporter, but she welcomed Gov. Palin's candidacy because, like Obama's, her nomination is a step towards equality. She does not, however, plan to vote for either one because she disagrees with both political platforms and questions the integrity and character of both candidates. She is not planning to vote for the first time in her adult life.
  Obviously, there is enough controversy and doubts about Gov. Palin to run for the second highest office in our country to merit debate and vetting; but I haven't seen anything that disqualifies her from running or that would be detrimental to the GOP ticket. Frankly, I would be very surprised if McCain dumped her, if nothing else because doing that would doom his chances of winning in November and he is still very competitive, I would not be surprised if she withdraws her candidacy on the basis of family concerns. If that happens, don't expect either Ridge or Lieberman to be picked, that would really anger the base of the Republican party. The obvious choice would be Romney.
  

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• 56. At 10:20pm on 02 Sep 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

  Re Post 49 Gary A Hill,
  Gary I'm intregued by the notion of an Alaskan separatist group. Just wonder what good reason could be given to Alaska (or any other state) to deny them independence if (and I take it to be unlikely) that was the democratically expressed will of the people.
  
  Of course you could just sell it back to the Russians and ease the deficit (maybe the French would even take New Orleans back off your hands..)
  
  You're all doing very well !!

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• 57. At 10:22pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  51. Gary_A_Hill: AndreainNY (#47), you seem to be unclear on one essential point. In a partisan political election (which this is), the whole point is to support the candidates who share your viewpoints.
  
  I was talking about feminism not politics. I thought they were different. I now know that feminism is only for liberals. Silly me.
  
  

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• 58. At 10:23pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  invisible (#54), I can believe that rumor. It's pretty clear that the motive behind this selection was to appease the "evengelical" or "pro-life" factions, not to attract Clinton voters as some have suggested.
  
  The "Grand New Party" idea is just wishful thinking, in my opinion.

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• 59. At 10:28pm on 02 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  I think a lot of people are seeing only half the picture. The Palin business is more serious than many people think.
  
  I can undrstand - but would not approve - people raising questions about the efficacy of Sarah Palin's moral guidance to her daughter Bristol. You know the line ...Christian, moralises, but her daughter had underage sex and got pregnant".
  
  That is dire enough. Cheap, in my view But what was swirling around, and what Justin Webb and the BBC latched on to, was the Daily Kos rumour that Sarah Palin did not have a baby in the spring - that it was Bristol's baby, there was a big cover-up.
  
  Justin Webb knows full well that this vile smear was what caused the McCain campaign to reveal the fact of Bristol's current pregnancy. That rumour has been carried all over the place by the BBC. The previous entry in Webb's blog has multiple examples of the smear being spread. (eg 85, 111, 128, 130, 141, 157, 168, 221) . A blog that is closely moderated.
  
  Kos has now excised all the entries about the smear - but the entries are cached on Google. There is ample evidence that the smear was totally false - that is why even the scurrilous Kos has been forced to retract, to hide the stuff.
  
  There are two lines of attack on the BBC on this. First, it was reprehensible for it to help propagate this very serious smear. Gutter behaviour, for which they deserve every condemnation.
  
  But surely the matter is also a legal issue. This smear was one HUGE defamation of Sarah Palin and her daughter. I had a post on Webb's blog deleted today - the noderators said it was possibly defamatory. It included a description of William Ayers. That description was based on clear public record, namely his own public statements.
  
  But OK - the moderators were being legally careful. (I asked them what they regarded as defamatory many hours ago - but have had no reply.)
  
  They have NOT been careful about the Palin smear. I had elsewhere on the Webb blog posted links to photos of April 2008 showing Sarah Palin clearly pregnant. And a link showing that the photo Kos had used of Bristol, with a skightly podgy stomach - the edifice on which the whole smear was based - was actually published in April 2006.
  
  So - the BBC were on warning, from me at least from 4am last night,, and no doubt from others, that there was a smear abroad - and it was patently false. And - that it was a huge (or rather vile, same thing really) smear.
  
  Justin Webb knew the source of the smear, I am sure. Yet it is allowed to float around BBC outlets without any checking of its veracity. The BBC has a policy of preferring to be a bit behind the news - of not publishing stuff until it is definite. This policy was totally ignored in this instance.
  
  I believe the BBC has probably laid itself wide open to legal action for defamation of both Sarah Palin and her daughter.
  
  The BBC (Webb or other people in the US) could have asked Sarah Palin or her advisors, or the McCain campaign, about the smear. The BBC would have got an answer quickly. Did Justin Webb ask for comments.? He patently knows it was a big issue. If he did not check its veracity but lets it float around on his own blog, that could amount to recklessness in defamation law, I believe. And would be deficient journalism.
  
  There are a variety of instances of the BBC helping spread the smear - radio and TV programmes today, and this blog itself.
  
  The BBC looks bang to rights on this. Biased, morally wrong - but above all legally wide open to heavy legal damages.

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• 60. At 10:29pm on 02 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  Tom Fooolery and opinions, are like internet letters to the editor and postings. Don't get to serious here, the idea is to lighten up and smile.
  
  Houses for the Homeless
  
  

  I was talking to a friend of mine's little girl the other day. I asked her
  what she wanted to be when she grew up and she replied, "I want to be President!"
  
  Both of her parents are liberal Democrats and were standing there. So then I asked her, "If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?"
  
  She replied, "I'd give houses to all the homeless people."
  
  "Wow - what a worthy goal." I told her, "You don't have to wait until
  you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $50.
  
  Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where this homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward a new house."
  
  Since she is only 6, she thought that over for a few seconds. While her Mom glared at me, she looked me straight in the eye and asked, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?"
  
  And I said, "Welcome to the Republican Party."
  
  Her folks still aren't talking to me.

  
  
  an anonymous author.
  

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• 61. At 10:33pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  I was told a couple of weeks ago that McCain's running mate was a tactical move and would be replaced by someone he really wanted. I guess that is Lieberman. I hope it is. I don't think the country will vote for two santimonious geezers.

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• 62. At 10:36pm on 02 Sep 2008, funnythat wrote:

  Phew! I was getting worried!
  
  A whole half-day without snide remarks from the BBC's North America editor.
  
  Anyway, it's absolutely not true that Justin only highlights negative aspects about this election's candidates, like Gov. Palin.
  
  He was positively lyrical in his appreciation last week for Messrs. Obama, Gore, Clinton, Biden etc.
  
  Only 62 days to go. Keep up the good work.

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• 63. At 10:42pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  #52. Asa_Scot: "Also I can't help but laughing at the outrage of some of the posters here about 'Liberal' attacks on Palin, does the expression 'What goes around comes around' mean anything to you? The Republicans have spent years perfecting the art of innuendo and smear and now the media monster they created has come back to bite them."
  
  Thank you for making my point. Bigotry is alive and kicking on both sides of the political aisle. Maybe it just seems more obvious when it's coming from the "Party of Tolerance."
  
  
  
  
  

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• 64. At 10:43pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  AndreainNY (#57), you are mistaken. Palin belongs to a group called "Feminists for Life."
  
  http://www.feministsforlife.org/

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• 65. At 10:44pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  60. DougTexan: "Houses for the Homeless"
  
  Hahahaha.
  
  Thanks!
  

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• 66. At 10:46pm on 02 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Some background on the Kos smear of Sarah Palin and her daughter :
  
  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/02/the-humiliation-of-a-young-girl/
  
  The BBC has largely played along with all this.
  
  At least Obama had the grace to warn people to stay clear of the kids. But his leftie mob were after blood. Kos has deleted all references to the smear now - but they will still be smirking.
  
  Gutter politics.
  
  And Justin Webb is a Pharisee in keeping the pot boiling. He seems to have no idea of how solidly the Republicans have gathered round Sarah palin on all this. Eagleton my eye - spurious speculation.
  
  It is time Mr Webb concentrated on the real issues.

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• 67. At 10:50pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  47, Andrea.
  
  Since when does being a woman, a mother, and a wife specifically suit you to the presidency?
  
  How about being smart and qualified, or is that a minor consideration? Voting for a woman because she is a woman is sexist; the feminist Clintonites are sexist. .

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• 68. At 10:51pm on 02 Sep 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

  Unfortunately, the media are zealously pursuing what the vetters should have months ago. Obama is right to stand back from the fray. He said family are off-limits and even offered that his own mother was aged eighteen years at his birth. The ones to pity are young Bristol and Levi caught in the glare of the Sarah Palin spotlight. Thomas Eagleton perhaps, or perhaps a Harriet Myers.

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• 69. At 10:52pm on 02 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  funnythat #62
  
  Yessir, right on with the mention of lyrical appreciation for the likes of Hillary, Nobama, Biden and Gore.
  
  Also right on with the notice of Negitive reporting (snide at that) in his treatment of 'the other side'.
  
  sixty two,.. what will we do on sixty three

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• 70. At 10:53pm on 02 Sep 2008, invisibleserendipity wrote:

  #58
  
  Hope springs eternal though, right?
  
  

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• 71. At 10:55pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  3, wandering.
  
  She will resign - hopefully before another scandal breaks.

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• 72. At 10:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  Is Obama a grand guy, or does he know the game plan? Justin Webb seems to.

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• 73. At 11:06pm on 02 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  All must wonder how much McCain knew beforehand.
  
  I heard Rush Limbaugh say a quote from Palin that made me smile. This is paraphrased:
  
  A Republican front man asked Palin if she was ready for the spotlight, stating that it can get rough.
  
  She answered with a question of her own: Do you know the difference between a Socker Mom and a Pit Bull?
  
  When he said no, she answered, 'Lipstick'
  
  
  woof

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• 74. At 11:09pm on 02 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Wow. What is it? Day two of the RNC?

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• 75. At 11:11pm on 02 Sep 2008, Cyril_Croydon

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 76. At 11:15pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  59. JohnAAA.
  
  Pregnant woman starts leaking amniotic fluid one month before her due date.
  Woman gives a speech before reknowned group (unmindful that she may find herself standing in a puddle).
  Woman in labor takes an eight-hour flight.
  Woman in labor then goes by car to a small town to have premature baby.
  Woman delivers shortly after arrival.
  
  We know this is a true story because the woman herself told it.
  
  Do you have any medical kowledge, John?
  
  

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• 77. At 11:15pm on 02 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  I haven't read all of the posts on this blog. I have been out of town and trying to catch up with all previous threads and posts.
  I DO remember Eagleton. What a sorry, ill-conceived disaster! My response to the choice of Palin for VP is the same.
  
  McCain seems not to have vetted this woman adequately. I am so sorry for her children and family but I think that she will withdraw before she damages the election any further. At least, I hope so.
  
  What was that poor old man thinking? How could he choose this woman for his vice president? Does he believe that all of the American people are completely stupid and anesthetized by the excrement of cattle that is daily piled on us by our government?
  
  Maybe we are. I do despair! McCain can't manage a political campaign much less our country.

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• 78. At 11:29pm on 02 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  Young-Mr-Grace (#56), one good reason: oil!

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• 79. At 11:34pm on 02 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Justin,
  
  The political process is a mystery, and more so journalism. You shower the DNC with moon glow prose, such as in "A Moment in History" and today you eek out a one word hyperlink on the 2nd day of the convention. Unbelievably biased?
  
  Massachusetts had no problem with a Senator whose DWI resulted on the death of a woman. And, this while he was serving in elected office. That was his own behavior, not someone else?s.
  
  Check out Roger Clinton if you want to incriminate relatives of candidates.
  
  Welcome to the mud pit.

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• 80. At 11:50pm on 02 Sep 2008, dratomic wrote:

  When I look at the vice president nominees, I think of two or maybe three things:
  First; the Democrats have nominated Lyndon Johnson, a go getter who can handle the job. Second; the Republicans have nominated Spiro Agnew or maybe Dan Quayle, if he can be counted as a thought, unknown quality except to a hopeful few?
  
  And may the deity have mercy

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• 81. At 11:53pm on 02 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  To#56 Youngmrgrace
  
  I have been confused about these same issues. I am wondering if I could declare our land an independent country in the event of a Republican win in this election. Just a wild west thought. I do have to keep my sense of humor!

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• 82. At 11:55pm on 02 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  As usual, the moderators have taken a tea break but most of us are well use to this behavior. Enjoy yourselves dear PTBs!

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• 83. At 11:58pm on 02 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  64. Gary_A_Hill: "you are mistaken. Palin belongs to a group called "Feminists for Life."
  
  My guess is right about now those are the only feminists who support her.
  
  And that is exactly my point.
  
  
  
  

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• 84. At 00:04am on 03 Sep 2008, mcdv-1975 wrote:

  Speaking of no experience. Barack Obama has absolutely none of the qualifications to be president. No executive experience, no foreign policy experience. Obama has never run anything and spent 2 of his 3,5 years in the Senate running for president. The difference between democrats and republicans being that the democrats put the inexperienced one on top of their ticket!
  
  Strangely enough, the press or most contributors here don't see Obama's utter lack of experience and qualifications as a problem.

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• 85. At 00:10am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Here is an interesting take on the topic;
  

  So, the young woman who was taken in adultery was dragged before the mob and who took up the stones? Not the narrow minded, moralistic, self-righteous, Bible-thumping, fundamentalist Christians. It was the self-styled progressives, the left-wing liberals, correspondents with the Daily Kos and the New York Times, who under any other circumstances would have insisted that she did nothing wrong that couldn't be fixed by a quickie visit with Planned Parenthood. They throw their first and every other stone, not at the one who was caught but at her mother, the woman who does it all, the epitome of the feminist ideal. The hypocrisy is breathtaking!

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• 86. At 00:18am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  55, Dominick.
  
  I think there are a lot of people with your wife's clear-headed approach to politics. They just don't make good copy.
  
  I think Palin will opt out (prearranged), but who would McCain would put in her place? He would want Lieberman, although I can't think why, unless it has to do with his hawkishness. Or maybe he just likes him. McCain seems to be impulsive and emotional.
  
  I hope he takes Lieberman (my pet hate). With a running mate like that, the democrats will have a bigger edge. Can't you hear Lieberman sanctimoniously droning on and on,while our eyelids droop?

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• 87. At 00:22am on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  67. At 10:50pm on 02 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
  47, Andrea.
  
  Since when does being a woman, a mother, and a wife specifically suit you to the presidency?
  
  How about being smart and qualified, or is that a minor consideration? Voting for a woman because she is a woman is sexist; the feminist Clintonites are sexist. .
  
  **************
  
  I never said these qualified her for presidency. That's a completely different debate. Were you to argue that she is not ready to be president, you'd have a good case.
  
  I was extremely disappointed to see women voting for Hillary and blacks voting for Obama "just because..." I thought we had moved beyond that. Clearly, I was wrong.
  
  My point is that every female Democrat I know who considers herself even remotely a feminist cannot bring herself to give any credit to Palin because (horrors!) she's a conservative.
  
  She has achieved something that no other woman has achieved -- nomination for Republican VP. She has broken a barrier almost as high as Obama's.
  
  Unlike blacks, however, few females can bring themselves to cry tears of joy for this historic event. They're mad because she doesn't hold their views. In other words, it's only a real accomplishment if it's a woman who holds their views.
  
  They don't have to vote for her. They don't even have to like her. But the least any woman who cares anything about equal rights should be able to do is acknowledge her accomplishments.
  
  Instead, we're hearing about her ability to "handle all those kids". What decade is this? 60's? 70's? A huge step backward. And, this time, it's the democrats who led us right back there.
  
  

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• 88. At 00:22am on 03 Sep 2008, heathergreene wrote:

  Do not forget the dirty- tricks capacity of the Republicans. They don't need Palin to resign or withdraw; they'll 'manage' the news leading up to the election to show that the economy is improving in the US (I heard this today on Radio 4), that the troops are coming home, and that Bush was right all along. There are two things, the power of which, you should never underestimate: greed and stupidity. The Republicans represent the exemplars of both.

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• 89. At 00:23am on 03 Sep 2008, tucsonmike wrote:

  Sarah Palin has issues, but they are not Eagleton's. The Vice Presidential Debate is sure going to be a lot more interesting.
  

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• 90. At 00:29am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #59. JohnAAA "Justin Webb and the BBC latched on to, was the Daily Kos rumour that Sarah Palin did not have a baby in the spring" I've checked Justin's last three entries and his own comments and not once have I found a reference by him to the matter. On the page headed "Events dear boy, events" I posted the following at #211.
  "I thought I'd throw this scuttlebutt into the mix. True or not, is should make interesting reading elsewhere during the next few days. The comments are as interesting as the allegation."
  
  I don't see that either Justin or the BBC are in any way responsible for spreading the "vile rumours" which, although withdrawn from the Daily Kos, may yet still be shown to be true since there is no convincing evidence to the contrary. This blog isn't journalism as such, it's a place for diverse opinions to be aired. You read as if you are a shill for the extreme right side of the Republican Party. We may be in the gutter, but we are looking at the stars.

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• 91. At 00:34am on 03 Sep 2008, infinitylies wrote:

  Does she even own a passport?

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• 92. At 00:46am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  This, from the Washington Post, about Mrs Palin and God?s will should please some and horrify others. No separation of Church and State in Alasaka?

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• 93. At 00:55am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  #76Allmymarbles
  
  From my most recent knowledge, The moment one drop of amniotic fluid appears, a pregnant woman who is at least 35 weeks is rushed to the hospital and if labor is not immediate, she is given drugs to induce the birth. If she is less than 35 weeks, she is given drugs and bed rest to stop labor. This is my personal experience of granddaughters recently.

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• 94. At 00:58am on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  Interesting that many here assume Palin wasn't vetted. Not sure where you're getting that idea.
  
  If, indeed, McCain selected Palin knowing her teenage daughter was pregnant, I would commend him. He didn't hold that against her.
  
  Maybe he's the real feminist.

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• 95. At 00:59am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  It must be the time difference

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• 96. At 01:08am on 03 Sep 2008, phatGator wrote:

  I listen to BBC World Service every day in the car and go to the website often for news, but have just started reading this blog. Two things are clear from this blog. First, that Webb does not even try to conceal his political bias. Second, that if the Obama supporters here represent the "change" he's bringing us, then the future for us is going to be quite hateful.

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• 97. At 01:11am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  What is this myth that the McCain camopaign did not vet Palin ? Rubbish.
  
  She was vetted a damn sight more than the BBC vets Obama.
  
  http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2EyM2Q2NjYxZmUxMzgxNTYwMjAwZDk3MmE2NGNmNjY

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• 98. At 01:21am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Obama needs Biden to get to the Democratic base of everyday salt of the earth blue collar voters.
  
  McCain needs Palin to get to the Republican base of religious, small government, gun owning, hunting, small town values voters.

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• 99. At 01:23am on 03 Sep 2008, paulcanning wrote:

  Good to see you linking to something other than the MSM for once.
  
  For the deal on Palin - n'est ce pas - the blogosphere is your source
  http://mudflats.wordpress.com

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• 100. At 01:37am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  Addendum To #56 Youngmrgrace
  
  I just realized that if my land became a sovereign country, I could be invaded at any time. This is a lot more complicated than I had thought.

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• 101. At 01:40am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Palin compared with Obama :
  
  http://patriotsrevolt.com/?q=node/603

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• 102. At 02:04am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  I think it is very naive and patronising of Justin Webb to imply that Palin will be forced to withdraw, like Eagleton. Presumptious.
  
  (As well as very biased ?)
  
  Palin has a knack of connecting with voters. And she has far more exec experience than Biden, let alone new-boy Obama. She should not be underestimated, she could well help swing key states like Ohio and Pennsylvania.
  
  The BBC badly mis-read the 2004 election. And currently they are wide of the mark as well. Either through innate bias - or by not getting out nd about enough,
  
  Get down to the grass-roots a bit more, Mr Webb.
  
  http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/09/02/the-case-against-the-case-against-palin.aspx

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• 103. At 02:14am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  #89Tucsonmike
  
  WHY? Because she is prettier than Biden or because if he gets tough with her, people will accuse him of being MEAN?

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• 104. At 02:14am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 105. At 02:16am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  93, Aqua,
  
  That leaves us with one conclusion, doesn't it?

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• 106. At 02:20am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  
  
  Palin connects in a way Biden never will. Heck, she had more votes in her small town, before she became mayor, than Biden got in the primaries.
  
  Maybe that is why the left have gone down into the gutter in their attacks on her.
  
  And there is a sense of sneering condescension in Justin Webb's treatment of her too.
  
  http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/sarah_palin_deeply_threatening.html

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• 107. At 02:22am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Maybe the Democrats are angry that the Republicans are moving into their realms of disenfranchised voters, unwed mothers, steel workers, and rural hard working folks.
  
  Maybe the Democrats will see that Republicans are not the ones trying to brand young Bristol with the scarlet letter, and even conservative Christian Republican families have the same issues as liberal Democrats.
  
  Palin choice scrambles left-right roles
  
  

  Many liberals are belittling the choice, suggesting that as a mother of five children, including an infant with Down syndrome, she has neither the time nor the experience to become vice president.
  
  It's the conservatives now who are now sounding traditional feminist themes, claiming there's no reason why she can't multitask and be a mother and vice president at the same time.

  
  
  Is feminism dead, or is it only an issue when a Republican woman runs for office?
  
  I guess we know now why Susan B. Anthony voted a straight Republican ticket, before she was arrested by a U.S. Deputy Marshal.

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• 108. At 02:28am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #92, David_Cunard:
  
  Do you know ANY Christians? They pray for everything!
  
  It's not scary to me. Why should it be scary that Christians pray for things?

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• 109. At 02:30am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 110. At 02:32am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  105, allmymarbles:
  
  Gads. Let's wait for the medical report shall we? Perhaps her waters were a slow leak, rather than a deluge. Maybe you would be satisfied with DNA testing? Is this where politics in America has descended? Should we insist that Obama prove his children are his? Maybe the debates would be run by Jerry Springer.

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• 111. At 02:35am on 03 Sep 2008, oldnat wrote:

  #100 arizonagal
  
  Independence can have its problems if you occupy a strategic location - as Iceland found out when the British invaded neutral Iceland in 1940. However, I don't know of any Icelanders who want to give up their independence!
  
  Alaskan Independence for Sarah might be a secret AIP plot. When McCain succumbs, and she gets the top job, she's going to declare Alaska independent.

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• 112. At 02:41am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  If a woman who usually has slow and long labours - agradual build-up of true labour - there is no need whatsoever to go into panic mode.
  
  Try reading the conclusions on page 2 :
  
  http://www.pregnancytoday.com/articles/labor-preparation/is-it-time-has-labor-started-3622/2/
  
  What Sarah Palin did was under advice from her own doctor - and was based on her own prior experience of 4 childbirths.
  
  Sheez, will the filthy smear never end ?

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• 113. At 02:43am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #92, David_Cunard:
  
  One other thought; When the "separation of Church and State" begins to mean that politicians can no longer pray in a church, then you will be living in a true dictatorship.

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• 114. At 02:45am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  #111Oldnat
  
  You are fun! Things were getting way too serious for me. I doubt anyone would want my land. Not strategic and way too much work to keep up. However, my understanding is that if you lose a war to the US, they give you lots of money!
  
  There was a movie' 'The Mouse That Roared,' you might find it amusing.

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• 115. At 02:48am on 03 Sep 2008, miamitree wrote:

  While Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy is just an unfortunate family matter , I have two questions for the Evangelicals - How's that abstinence only program working out for you ? and - How would you be reacting if Barack Obama's daughter were older and in the same situation ?

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• 116. At 02:49am on 03 Sep 2008, oldnat wrote:

  #114 arizonagal
  
  Peter Sellars at his multi-talented best!

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• 117. At 02:55am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  102, John AAA.
  
  You are assuming Palin will be forced to withdraw. Isn't it possible that her "resignation" was prearranged. even before the question of the pregnancies?

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• 118. At 02:58am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  107, Real.
  
  It has nothing to do with being a woman. It has to do with being dishonest. Women are truly equal when they can be guilty of the same faults as men.

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• 119. At 03:00am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Sellers was better as Chauncey Gardner, the faux sage.
  
  Obama reminds people of Chancey, a lot of waffle that suckers believe.

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• 120. At 03:00am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #102. JohnAAA "Palin has a knack of connecting with voters." In a town of 6,500 or a state with 685,000? Los Angeles County has 10 million residents and WalMart employs over 2 million. Connecting with voters in such an underpopulated region should not be difficult. Connecting with over 100 million voters all the USA is quite a different matter
  
  #104. "You do not have a shred of evidence for your smear." You really need to read the entry I made. I didn't write it or originate it but made the comment that it "should make interesting reading elsewhere during the next few days. "
  
  And calling me a coward is totally unacceptable - it appears that it is you who is laying in the gutter - face down.

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• 121. At 03:01am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  I have never said that Palin will withdraw. If anyone does - it will be Biden, for his lobbying links.

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• 122. At 03:07am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  110. Real.
  
  The story was her own and it was bogus. Anyone who knows anything about medicine or anyone who has given birth knows her story is ridiculous. And it is HER STORY, not the story of left-wingers. Go check.
  
  You said maybe she had a "slow leak." Do you think women are tires?

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• 123. At 03:08am on 03 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #87
  
  Andrea,
  
  Interesting points. I had a long lunch today with some female friends from the Upper East Side. I raised the question of Palin and whether she is appealing to feminists. I was actually surprised at the response.
  
  Most of what was said wouldn;t get past the moderators, but the gist of it is this. Why would feminists support a woman who endorses not a single aspect of the feminist movement? She endorses policies that leave young women as single mothers or married in their teens. Condemned to a life of being 'barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen' except for the token 'beauty queen who uses looks or luck to rise a little above'. 'A Cleopatra', 'Lucretia Borgia', 'Wallace Simpson'. 'She's trying to glue up the 18 million cracks as we speak'. It was a very lively lunch, so thank you for setting it up for me.
  
  I suspect the reason Palin gets few women supporters is because far from feminists supporting her, they see her as an example of everything the feminist movement tried to get above and beyond. The token female who plays the boys game to be held up as an example. I most liked our parting exchange.
  
  'So she won't get hillary voters?'
  
  'Honestly Sweetee, how many Republican wives were going to vote for Hillary? Gimme a break'
  
  I guess that sums it up.
  
  Entertained Sam

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• 124. At 03:11am on 03 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #108
  
  If they do then they are not Christians. Or they are in for a very rude awakening.
  
  Sleep well,
  
  Sam

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• 125. At 03:12am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  The Obama campaign using the palin smokescreen to start admitting close links with William Ayers ?
  
  http://globallabor.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-campaign-uses-sun-times-to-begin.html
  
  Now we'll start to see some real dirt.

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• 126. At 03:14am on 03 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #73
  
  So she can't spell soccer?

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• 127. At 03:21am on 03 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #97
  
  John,
  
  I guess they tried their best but just didn;t do a decent job?
  'No one could have envisaged the media frenzy'
  
  'Mistakes were made is not finding the AIP connection'
  
  'The trooper controversy is a private matter'
  
  'Our evidence showed that Creationism existed before the invasion'
  
  We havn't seen this before. Or have we? A new slogan for Obama:
  
  'Republicans. Ambitious, but rubbish!'
  
  Oh, hang on, that's Top Gear. Seems to fit though.
  
  Puzzled Sam

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• 128. At 03:25am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  112, JohnAAA.
  
  "She said" her doctor said this and "she said" her doctor said that. There is no doctor in his right mind who would advise a woman who was going into labor prematurely and leaking amniotic fluid to take an eight-hour plane trip. A doctor would have told her to go to a hospital in Texas post haste.
  
  P. S. It is not possible to predict how fast or slow a labor will be if your are not under direct observation. I have had four children. My shortest labor was three hours, and my longest was 24!

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• 129. At 03:28am on 03 Sep 2008, paulcanning wrote:

  Palin withdrawal, a book has been opened
  http://www.intrade.com/

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• 130. At 03:32am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  Perhaps JohnAAA is MAII in another guise? He's been singularly absent from this discussion.
  
  #108. RealFrigid asked: "Do you know ANY Christians? They pray for everything!" Indeed I do know Christians and was brought up in the Church of England and flirted with Rome for a short while. As you say, they pray for everything, but many prayers are for all the wrong reasons. Wealth, victory, revenge for example. If there is a God (which I doubt) then I wouldn't think Her/Him to be listening to the requests of politicians, but rather busier in the far reaches of the universe which man has yet to discover. As for politicians not praying in church (#113) - that's unnecessary, but exhorting their constituency to do so is no more acceptable than preachers in church who would persuade their congregation to vote in a certain way.

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• 131. At 03:41am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  To#122Allmymarbles and 123Samtyler1969
  
  You have both made my day!
  
  Slow leaking tire, indead!
  
  Sam, no one knows what happens in that voting booth!
  
  

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• 132. At 03:49am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  #128allmymarbles
  
  Amen!
  
  Five for me and I have been with all my daughters and daughter-in-law during births, plus my granddaughters. I do try to be kind but this is beginning to seem bogus to me. However, I mostly know what I have read here so I will have to research more.

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• 133. At 03:54am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  129, Paul.
  
  Whenever I want some idea of what is going to happen, I don't look to pundits or polls, I look to the gamblers. Thanks for the link. I didn't have that one.

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• 134. At 03:57am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  Maybe things are done differently in Alaska.

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• 135. At 03:58am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  The Palin smears remind me of Dan Rather. (The sacked Dan Rather).
  
  Without his sense of timing.
  
  But just as ineffectual in the end.
  
  Fred Thompson just tore Obama and Pelosi apart. And now Joe will swing it to overseas affairs - and dtress the appeasing and intellectually bankrupt style of the modern Democratic Party.
  
  A man like Lieberman would never have been speaking at a Repub convention in Kennedy's day.
  
  Whatvare the os that Sarah Palin pulls as big a TV audience as Obama ? And if she outperforms - won't that be an own goal by the Dems ?
  
  Why did Justin Webb take his topic for this thread direct from The Atlantic ?

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• 136. At 04:09am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  132, aqua.
  
  The best you can do is to read what Palin herself said. There can be no smear in that. And when you do read her account, you will recognize it for the nonsense it is.
  
  I also watched an interview with her that took place a few days before she made the announcement that she was pregnant. There she is on a walking tour with her interviewer. The weather is bad and she is striding along at a healthy clip.
  
  At that time Palin is supposed to be 7 months pregnant, but there is no evidence of that big lump we all get. I thought that maybe she was one of those women who don't show much. I found an old picture of her in a previous pregnancy. She is big as a house.
  
  I can't give the interview as much credence as her own words, because I have not checked the date it was made (or the year for that matter) so I guess it could misrepresent. But it does agree with everyone's memory of her at that time.

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• 137. At 04:21am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #94. AndreainNY: "Interesting that many here assume Palin wasn't vetted. Not sure where you're getting that idea." This should explain.

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• 138. At 04:25am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #130, David_Cunard:
  
  "As for politicians not praying in church (#113) - that's unnecessary, but exhorting their constituency to do so is no more acceptable than preachers in church who would persuade their congregation to vote in a certain way."
  
  Then that is an issue for the Church, not the State. If the Church is being misused then it is the leaders and the laity of the Church who must be held accountable. It's not Ariana Huffington's duty to
  
  Here is what she said,
  

  I can do my part in doing things like working really, really hard to get a natural gas pipeline, a $30 billion dollar project that's going to create a lot of jobs for people in Alaska, and we're going to have a lot of energy flowing through here -- and pray about that also -- I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she told them, "but I can do my job there, in developing our natural resources, and doing things like getting the roads paved, and making sure our troopers have their cop cars and their uniforms, their guns, and making sure our public schools are funded. But really, all that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."

  
  
  I don't see any vote pandering. Why would anyone object to someone praying for success on a stagnant pipeline project? What is wrong with paving roads, equipping policemen, of funding public schools? If God can help, why not let him?

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• 139. At 04:30am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  There are contemporary pictures of Palin showing her obviously pregnant. I posted a bunch on last night's blog. It was a blogger who found the pictures - and that is what punctured the whole Daily Kos story.
  
  The left will obsess endlessly about the smear - but it will lead nowhere, if anything it will rebound on their spite.
  
  Obama told his supporters to lay off. They haven't.
  
  What kind of effective leadership is that ?
  
  A squalid performance so far by the Dems. And by much of the media - including the BBC.

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• 140. At 04:31am on 03 Sep 2008, OldSouth wrote:

  It wasn't really about Sen. Eagleton at the time--a decent man who would have served well.
  
  It WAS about an out-of-control press and amoral politicians then. It is now as well.
  
  Other figures come to mind, such as Robert Bork (leading to the coining of a new verb 'to Bork').
  
  Eagleton was 'Borked', and unfortunately for the country, threw in the towel in the face of the non-stop lies and hysteria.
  
  The Clarence Thomas nomination (the Democrat mob led by none other than Teddy Kennedy) was instructive, in that Judge Thomas did not succumb to the 'borking' process, and huff and puff as they might, the rabid Senators and the rabid press found they could not prevail in the face of truth.
  
  I don't expect the Dems and the press to successfully 'bork' Gov. Palin. It's a sign of their panic at her nomination that they have ginned up the smear machine.
  
  This lady's not for turning, either.

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• 141. At 04:35am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  135, JohnAAA.
  
  You are just like Xie and Magic. You get on your hobbyhorse and keep riding. Your prejudice is such that nothing can get through to you.
  
  As to Joe Lieberman, I am glad that weasel is yours and not mine.
  
  

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• 142. At 04:37am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #122, allmymarbles:
  
  "You said maybe she had a "slow leak." Do you think women are tires?"
  
  Some are. Back to amniotic fluid. I have two children. The first time, the water broke with a gush after 10 hours of mild rhythmic contractions. My first son was born 16 hours later. The next time, the again rhythmic contractions for some hours, then her amniotic sac leaked for about 3 hours, and this time only 2 hours of "hard labor".
  
  So much for conspiracy theories.

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• 143. At 04:46am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  139, JohnAAA.
  
  OK, so you have seen pictures. During which pregnancy were they taken? Can you prove it. Sorry, kiddo, my evidence (her own words) outclasses yours.
  
  Remember, too, that you can fake pictures I am a whiz with PhotoShop. I can make you older, younger, fatter, thinner - or pregnant.

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• 144. At 04:47am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  AMM,
  
  Here is her story;
  
  

  Palin was in Texas last week for an energy conference of the National Governors Association when she experienced signs of early labor. She wasn't due for another month.
  
  Early Thursday -- she thinks it was around 4 a.m. Texas time -- she consulted with her doctor, family physician Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who is based in the Valley and has delivered lots of babies, including Piper, Palin's 7-year-old.
  
  Palin said she felt fine but had leaked amniotic fluid and also felt some contractions that seemed different from the false labor she had been having for months.
  
  "I said I am going to stay for the day. I have a speech I was determined to give," Palin said. She gave the luncheon keynote address for the energy conference.
  
  Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said.
  
  "Things were already settling down when she talked to me," Baldwin-Johnson said. Palin did not ask for a medical OK to fly, the doctor said.
  
  "I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," Baldwin-Johnson said.
  
  So the Palins flew on Alaska Airlines from Dallas to Anchorage, stopping in Seattle and checking with the doctor along the way.
  
  "I am not a glutton for pain and punishment. I would have never wanted to travel had I been fully engaged in labor," Palin said. After four kids, the governor said, she knew what labor felt like, and she wasn't in labor.

  
  
  What seems weird to you? My wife had strong Braxston-Hicks contractions with both ours. I remember vividly, because I had to drive her to the hospital many, many times.

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• 145. At 04:48am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #135. JohnAAA: "Fred Thompson just tore Obama and Pelosi apart" A flip-flopper on women's rights. He had earlier said "The ultimate decision on abortion should be left with the woman and not the government." No-one (well, hardly anyone) took any notice of him when he ran for president, and no-one (except diehard Republicans) will take any notice of him now.
  
  Are you sure you're not MarcusAureliusII?

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• 146. At 04:54am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #139. JohnAAA: "There are contemporary pictures of Palin showing her obviously pregnant. I posted a bunch on last night's blog." Seeing that photos are not posted on this blog, to which one do you refer? You're very shy about posting links, but couldn't you have done so if the evidence is obviously irrefutable?

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• 147. At 04:59am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #144. RealFrigid: "Here is her story" Looks like you simply copied someone else's writing. Unless you're personally acquainted with Mrs Palin, how do you know any of that is so? Too many reports, not enough links to verify the statements.

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• 148. At 05:01am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  142, Real.
  
  That's it, you can't predict the course of labor with much accuracy.
  
  By the by, when your wife was leaking amniotic fluid, you didn't put her on an eight-hour flight, did you? (Of course not. She would have had you neutered.)

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• 149. At 05:01am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #137, David_Cunard:
  
  Other than the outright lying (e.g. DailyKos, Ariana), the process that Sarah Palin is going through now is similiar to the intense political hazing Obama got during his campaign. He lost a crazy old Uncle, and quit his Church over it. His wife has to act sane, and loving in public now. He had to give back all that campaign money to Rezco, and ilk. Had to explain how he got that lot at a bargain basement price. He had to distance himself from his activist roots.
  
  I guess the difference is that during the Obama hazing, the press generally still held him up as worthy. It seems to me that Sarah is getting pilloried.

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• 150. At 05:04am on 03 Sep 2008, DougTexan wrote:

  John#106 Kudos for your insight!!!!
  
  Allmymarbles #141 U Dare to compare Xie and John???? I'm glad Lieberman is on our side for the Dems don't have a side as evident by the very poor showing of a six point bounce.
  
  Democrats: All are angry as the RNC hasn't even hit the third night and the bounce is being felt. Just how do you spell L-O-S-E-R!!
  D-E-M-O-C-R-A-t=loser!!!!
  
  New meaning to feeling "GIDDY", it isn't feeling ill for the ignorant, as they may not rule this time, and have no chance for 'next time'...... Now thats giddy.
  
  Liberman rocks. RNC set the pace. You don't hear USA at the DNC,.Middle earth isn't dead and gone at the rnc. Palin Rocks

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• 151. At 05:09am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Just in case you might think Cathy Baldwin-Johnson is some quack.
  
  Valley Doctor Takes National Award: Cathy Baldwin-Johnson of Wasilla Was Named The 2002 Family...

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• 152. At 05:11am on 03 Sep 2008, DesertChildAZ wrote:

  27.
  
  You know why the Democrats are so riled up? Because McCain's selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate is an insult to every single American. He might as well have nominated Barney, the Bush's Scottish Terrier. To defile the political process in such a degrading way...
  
  As an American, not as a Democrat, I am insulted that John McCain would so underestimate the American public's ability to see through his ploy in selecting Palin. It's mind boggling.
  
  THAT is why we are so riled up about this.

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• 153. At 05:14am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  144, Real.
  
  Aside from everything else, if you are leaking amniotic fluid and are close to term, they induce labor. There are problems involved with loss of amniotic fluid, one of them being infection.
  
  It would be interesting to know what date the governors' convention was. If you find out please tell us.

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• 154. At 05:21am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  #136Allmymarbles
  
  Thanks!
  
  I have more questions. Did she know in advance that her child had Downs Syndrome? Children with Downs Syndrome can be fragile. To my knowledge, there are often teams of pediatric specialists at the delivery of Downs Syndrome children in order to meet any special physical needs. Why would she risk the health of her child just to deliver a speech? None of this makes any real sense to me.

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• 155. At 05:32am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #140, OldSouth:
  
  You are right. This is a Borking.
  
  Compare and contrast the lunatic left from the lunatic right... At which convention, RNC or DNC did police need to disperse a riotous crowd with teargas? I'm really afraid someone's going to try to push it until they get themselves killed.

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• 156. At 05:36am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  AMM,
  
  Not to hard. April 17th.
  
  Governors meet near Dallas for energy conference

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• 157. At 05:40am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #153, allmymarbles:
  
  I agree that the risk of infection is one reason they don't want to leave a ruptured amniotic sac for too long. According to this medical source, 24 hours is considered an acceptable risk.

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• 158. At 05:46am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #152, DesertChildAZ:
  
  Actually, blame it on the religious right. It's come out that McCain wanted either Joe Lieberman or Tom Ridge. Feedback within the party indicated a pro-choice VP would alienate the base and de-energize the campaign. they needed to find the right VP to help consolidate the party and get them into the game.
  
  It would have been nice for them to have figured this out about a month ago.

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• 159. At 05:57am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #144. RealFrigid - "Her story" you posted is a direct but incomplete lift from Anchorage Daily News of 22 April. If I can find it, why couldn't you have posted the link, or perhaps you didn't want the whole story to be read: "The stage of her pregnancy was not apparent by observation. She did not show any signs of distress". And back to work within three days! SuperMom!!
  
  #154. aquarizonagal The implication in the article is that she had known that the baby would have Down Syndrome but chose to take the pregnancy to term.

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• 160. At 05:57am on 03 Sep 2008, aquarizonagal wrote:

  I think our good moderators are having another tea break. I will say to all Have Fun!

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• 161. At 05:58am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #148, allmymarbles :
  
  "By the by, when your wife was leaking amniotic fluid, you didn't put her on an eight-hour flight, did you? (Of course not. She would have had you neutered.)"
  
  My 2nd child was delivered after 20 min at the hospital. :) She was dilated to 9cm when we got to her room. My wife is a princess, and wouldn't be caught anywhere near some of the stuff Sarah Palin has done (e.g. Hunt moose, Fishing Trawler). Like I said, she was an inner city girl. Our first house had to be on a bus line. Our 2nd had to be within 10 minutes of a shopping mall. :) She's not Alaska material, although I am. Marriage is a painless form of neutering somtimes. Lol.
  
  #147, David_Cunard:
  
  Right. I'm going to make it up. Does Google even work on your browser? Is it Opera?
  
  BBC America Blog Comrades... I promise I won't make stuff up.
  
  Palins' child diagnosed with Down syndrome (04/22/08)
  
  

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• 162. At 06:07am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Sorry, that was the wrong link for the Amniotic Leakage -- 24 hours issue.
  
  Here is a better link
  
  Anyway, after reviewing multiple sources, it seems 24 hours is the accepted time period.
  
  If your water breaks, and labor does not begin you need to see a doctor within 24 hours to begin monitoring for infection.

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• 163. At 06:09am on 03 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

  You folks are all missing the point. This election
  is all about perception, not substance.
  
  Personally, I believe that it was a big mistake
  for McCain to pick Palin. Perhaps MarkfromOxford
  is right with #31. This could all be a ruse.
  
  But, if Palin holds her own in a debate against
  Biden, then the issue is over. It doesn't matter
  what her personal beliefs are, as long as she
  doesn't try to force them on everybody else.
  
  Picking on a career woman with children. Shame on
  all of you... You flunk politics 101, and nobody
  is going to put YOU on THEIR ticket!
  

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• 164. At 06:20am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #159, David_Cunard:
  
  "If I can find it, why couldn't you have posted the link, or perhaps you didn't want the whole story to be read:"
  
  Sorry, I was focusing on the time line, not the other information in the article. As you can see, I did go back and find it again and post it, so no I don't care if you read the whole article. I forgot to post the link, with the quote. I do try to do that so you can verify the source.

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• 165. At 06:23am on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #161. RealFrigid: "Does Google even work on your browser? Is it Opera?" No; I use Safari and Firefox. Why couldn't you have posted the link in the first place instead of a passing it off as your own work? It's not up to readers to make a search to verify something - if you're going to quote an article at such length, at the very least give the attribution. Nine paragraphs hardly come under the heading of "fair use".

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• 166. At 06:23am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  I think Justin should get paid per word he writes in the blog.

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• 167. At 06:24am on 03 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

  And, this link gives us the answer to the eternal question:
  why do airlines want to charge extra for legroom?
  

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• 168. At 06:25am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #163 GnR;
  
  Wouldn't it seem more appropriate that Obama debate Palin, and McCain debate Biden?

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• 169. At 06:27am on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  As a neutral I've been following this election with great interest. Very interesting and qualified candidates all - up till now...
  Sarah Palin's so-far-apparent political views may cause a stir; her daughter's pregnancy may (rightly or wrongly) bring other questions into play over judgement; but - as far as I'm concerend - when, as Governor of Alaska, in a local radio "interview"she laughs along on air as the show's host calls a political opponent and cancer survivor "a b****" and "a cancer"... well, that highlights that she's not, I'm sorry to say, suitable Vice-Presidential material at all.
  She should resign if nominated.
  
  My wife summed it up last night when she said that up until now she didn't know who to vote for (in fact I believe she was leaning towads McCain); with Sarah Palin and her views on the ticket she was voting for Obama.

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• 170. At 06:42am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  156, Real.
  
  So the conference was on the April 17 and the baby was born 6:30 AM on the 18th.
  
  Flights on Air Alaska from Dallas to Anchorage stop in Seattle. Long flight - two hour time difference.

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• 171. At 06:45am on 03 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

  #168, RF, I'm just trying to find a way to vote
  for a McCain-Biden ticket, assuming that I'm
  restricted to 2 of the 4 major candidates.
  
  

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• 172. At 06:48am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  259, David.
  
  Again we would have to say "she said" she knew it would have Down's Syndrome. Palin is "saying" a lot of things these days.
  
  So much for Mom and apple pie.

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• 173. At 06:53am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  31, MarkfromOxford.
  
  Yet I believe it is a setup. He will probably choose that weasel, Joe Lieberman. Not a bad choice. With Lieberman he is sure to lose.

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• 174. At 06:54am on 03 Sep 2008, gunsandreligion wrote:

  #168, RF, at this point we should just round up
  5 more interesting people, and put on a version
  of "Hollywood Squares" tic-tac-toe in lieu of a debate.
  
  They must really be scratching their heads in
  the Kremlin now. They are probably trying to
  explain this whole process according to some
  rational theory. I hope that they don't all suffer
  nervous breakdowns and wind up having to
  spend the rest of their lives on the dacha.
  

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• 175. At 07:03am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #169, aegeanblue:
  
  You are probably right that some moderates who don't share Palin's views will go to Obama, but I think the McCain camp was worried they were losing some of the party faithful(pun intended) and needed someone to the right of McCain to consolidate the base.
  
  It's a gamble. An energize Republican party will canvas more, and bring out the vote. A ho-hum candidacy would demoralize and drag the campaign down. Remember all those Red states? McCain needs to win them all to make up for an Obama sweep in New England, California, and Illinois. GW the first did the same thing with Dan Quayle, he was also pilloried by the press, but his addition to the ticket brought in the party faithful and GW won.
  
  I hope in this set of debates Biden doesn't try to mimic Lloyd Bentsen who told Quayle, "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."
  
  This time though, Barrak Obama is no Michael Dukakis. He is more articulate and populist, and less experienced.
  
  As AllMyMarbles, an Obama supporter, stated astutely earlier, she hoped for a Lieberman VP, because it would kill the McCain campaign. That was exactly what McCain had been planning, until it was nixed by better campaign advisers.

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• 176. At 07:09am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  150, Doug.
  
  If he picks Lieberman you republicans will lose the election. The weasel's whiney, sanctimonious, boring voice will put you to sleep and you won't wake up to vote.
  
  For this reason I support your choice of Lieberman (the weasel).

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• 177. At 07:45am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  175, Real.
  
  OK, so he can't choose Lieberman because he is a weasel. Who would he choose? Romney? Pawlenty? Maybe he can try both of those out and then start over again with Panil.
  
  It's true I support Obama, but don't go thinking that I have "I love Obama" hearts pinned to my pillow. Politics and politicians make one cynical. I don't love any of these second-rate actors, but the screenplay is interesting if you don't get too involved.

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• 178. At 07:51am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #169, aegeanblue:
  
  

  ...when, as Governor of Alaska, in a local radio "interview"she laughs along on air as the show's host calls a political opponent and cancer survivor "a b****" and "a cancer"... well, that highlights that she's not, I'm sorry to say, suitable Vice-Presidential material at all."

  
  Wow, into the mud pit for a third day...
  
  Feud between Gov. Palin and libertarian-leaning Legislator Lyda Green
  
  I guess Democrats get upset when two Republicans fight with each other. I've heard an audio that is purported to be the show, but it's not verifiable (it could easily have been edited). Palin seems to nervously giggle after the host talked. I think people might be reading too much into it, and Palin might have just played along to be nice. There is no love lost between the two.
  
  It was a bad judgment call, but not scandal material. Palin did apologize and release a press statement.
  
  I guess McCain had an incident around the same time where a Shock Jock called Hillary names. I remember also that McCain got mad awhile ago in the Senate and dropped the F bomb on fellow Republican Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas).
  
  
  
  
  

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• 179. At 07:55am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #171, gunsandreligion :
  
  Or, even a Biden/McCain ticket. If I could vote I could go for either, although I hate big governments. America's government is too big.

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• 180. At 08:01am on 03 Sep 2008, steveofleeds wrote:

  Any chance of some impartiality here at all? I'm afraud you're all going to get a shock when your messiah (Obama) gets beaten. Most polling from the US shows Palin playing well with the groups she's supposed to attract to the McCain ticket. As for a lame duck VP, how about Joe Biden? He's immersed in the lobbying industry and has been demonstrably wrong about every foreign policy question in the last 35 years. A man who stole speeches from Neil Kinnock is no asset to anyone.
  The BBC needs to decide whether it wants to be impartial or whether it wants to lose all credibility (and that is dangerously close).

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• 181. At 08:03am on 03 Sep 2008, robzaba wrote:

  Hello people!
  
  Can we have some of your ideas as to what the next revelation will be from Palin?
  
  
  Here are a couple to start you off...
  
  
  1. I believe in equal right for men and women. And yes, it's true, I used to be a man...
  
  :)
  
  
  ...
  
  

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• 182. At 08:03am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #177, allmymarbles:
  
  James Carville suggested Olympia Snow. Although she is pro-choice, she has the credentials to stand up to Biden.
  
  Tom Ridge maybe, but also pro-choice... Tim Pawlenty, but then ho-hum...
  
  I still think it would be interesting for John to convince Hillary to take it. Say to heck with the Religious Right. Take the middle, and half the Democrats. In the rush to the middle, both parties are nearly indistinguishable from each other. Let the fanatic left and the fanatic right form their own 3rd parties.
  
  Return to the pre-Lincoln Democratic-Republican party, the far left can be the Green Progressive party, and the far right can be the Christian Conservative party.

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• 183. At 08:04am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #177, allmymarbles:
  
  "It's true I support Obama, but don't go thinking that I have "I love Obama" hearts pinned to my pillow."
  
  Where are they pinned? :)

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• 184. At 08:11am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  181, robzaba:
  
  More likely, "She kicked a dog on her way to church".

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• 185. At 08:35am on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  RealFrigid
  Thanks for your insights in #175; I think you hit the nail on the head.
  
  #178: Thanks also for putting some background into this story. I'm glad she apologised but, nevertheless, I think it reveals a political naivety and personal insensitivity.

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• 186. At 08:35am on 03 Sep 2008, danda_6926 wrote:

  The Bum Days With Wowowee:
  If there is anyone of you from the UK who can find time to watch Wowowee, do so. You will see you have been missing half of your life during those days you were not watching it.

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• 187. At 08:40am on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  182, Real.
  
  Believe me I would to have a larger choice of parties and candidates. The only way that could come about would by limiting campaign time to maybe two or three months, and limiting the amount of money that can be spent.
  
  As it stands now it is a game for the obscenely wealthy, no peons need apply.

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• 188. At 09:09am on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  185, aegeanblue:
  
  RealFrigid
  Thanks for your insights in #175; I think you hit the nail on the head.
  
  #178: Thanks also for putting some background into this story. I'm glad she apologised but, nevertheless, I think it reveals a political naivety and personal insensitivity.
  
  ----
  
  Thanks. I won't make up my mind on her character until I have more data. I think you are correct on the political naivety. My experience in America is that small town politics is petty, State politics is mean, and national politics is evil.
  
  Someone else quoted a statement she made regarding her "toughness", (and remember this women is like an Alaskan barbarian princess) where she said "Do you know what the difference is between a soccer mom and a pitbull? Answer: Lipstick

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• 189. At 09:18am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  176 allmymarbles
  
  You seem to be suggesting that McCain will be forced to substitute Lieberman for Palin. Curious logic.
  
  The Dems are trying to throw all manner of muck at palin. Some of it has already been disproved. The Kos smear ain't got no legs - and it could seriously rebound on the Dems.What is left won't add up to a row of beans. McCain won't need to drop Palin.
  
  
  Tonight we will hear from Palin herself. And there will be a huge TV audience for her, much larger than if the Dem side and its lunatic rabid fringe had not started the smearing you still go along with.
  
  How are you going to feel when Palin 's position is consolidated ? What's the next smear ?
  
  If it really gets down and dirty, heaven help Obama nad Biden. If the media (including the BBC) had been doing its job properly, Obama would not have beaten Clinton.
  
  Palin has been under more media scrutiny, more media digging, in the past couple of days than Obama has faced in the whole process.
  
  The Republican party is clearly united nowm, and raring to go. The filthy smears from the Dem side have only helped reinvigorate the base. The Dem party is still trying to patch over the cracks, and is now hobbled by the weakest VP candidate I can recall.
  
  Again - I suggest Justin Webb gets out more, gets out of the Beltway thinking. This election could well turn on a popular feeling that they want the stables cleansed. And the Repubs have two good dogs in that race. The Dem ticket has not an ounce of track-record in the sort of reform a lot of people are yearnig for. Just look at how unpopular Congress is. About as unpopular as journalists.
  
  I look forward to the BBC getting its act together sometime, starting to give better balance, stopping relying on the Dem handouts and media themes to set the agenda. The media are not going to set the agenda anyway. They tried last time and it failed.
  

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• 190. At 09:46am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Justin Webb's comments on the Today programme show he is still way behind the curve - trotting out mainly the Dem talking points and the views of media on the Dem side of the track in assessing Sarah Palin's position.
  
  The title for this blog merely reflects yesterday's articlle in Atlantic on Eagleton, followed up by HuffPo. Can't we have any originality fom the BBC ? On the question of whether Palin had been fully vetted, he turned to Dem George Stephanopoulos of ABC - repeating the line that had been floated by the Dem New York Times yesterday. Whjy didn't he get any comment from the McCain campaign itself ? Or refer to what they have said on the record ? Mr Webb's job is to bring us all the news - not just to take his lead from the Dem media.
  
  Looking at some of the posts very early this morning, it is clear that some here are - foolishly - continuing to obsess about the Kos smear saying that Sarah Palin is not Trig's mother. Obsess away, even though Kos has deepsixed the whole lot of its nonsense.
  
  141 allmymarbles (you sure about that ? ) -
  
  You describe Lieberman as a weasel. Wasn't he the Dem VP candidate in 2000 ? You cannot dispute his seniority - and his judgment that McCain is qualified and Obama is not still carries weight. Lieberman' was deliberately speaking over the heads of the convention audience to the world outside. Diehard Dems may hate him now - but a lot of the independent voters recognise his stature and will not so lightly dismiss him
  
  Lieberman pointed out that McCain has a proven record of trying to break Congress gridlocks and rising above party politics, to reach across party lines, to challenge the lobbyists, to oppose pork-barrel spending - greenhorn Obama hasn't. Fact.
  
  The theme of the McCain campaign is to break up the closed Washington system - to reform it. Their records show that both MCCain and Palin walk the walk. All Obama does is talk and talk and talk the talk.
  
  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/remarks_sen_joe_lieberman.html
  
  143 allmymarbles, and 146 David_Cunard - obsessing about the Palin photos that Kos has now dropped
  
  I provided links to photos of Palin showing her clearly pregnant at the relevant time in post 191 on the previous Justin Webb blog - the photos are official photos, not Photoshopped as in zany minds. You seem to be great at putting out allegations, try reading the blog you frequent.
  
  145 David_Cunard
  
  OK you don't like Fred Thompson, and you can point to his ineffective campaign against McCain earlier in the year. But he gathered a damn sight more support than tired Joe Biden ever did. (Choosing Biden was a mark of Obama's weakness) Saying that no-one outside die-hard Repubs listen to him is just your opinion. He gave a barnstormer with some hard digs at Obama's failings - and he is a popular figure in the US outside the politics watchers. McCain and Palin have the will to drain the Washington swamp. Biden in particular is part of the swamp. We will see how that message resonates. And Thompson's account of McCain's record in war and in casptivity was genuinely moving. Every disparaging reference to Obama's inexperience and his extreme liberalism will be hammered home week after week.
  
  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/remarks_former_sen_fred_thomps.html
  
  146 David_Cunard
  
  Another poster provided a full account of Palin's actions and her doctor's views at the time of trig's birth. So then you ludicrously say that not enough - the poster must provide first-hand knowledge of Sarah Palin. Do you have any first-hand knowledge on which to base your obsession ? Please provide details of how often you have met her - you are the one pushing the smear, the onus is on you to substantiate it.
  
  152 DesertChildAZ -
  
  Classy. You say McCain might as well have chosen Bush's Scottish terrier as Sarah Palin. But as you are going on about dogs, Bush's dog would be a match for Biden any day. Or Obama - or both together.
  
  RealFrigid has already told the joke but it is worth repeating You wanna know the difference between Sarah Palin and a pit-bull terrier ?
  
  Lipstick - and she told that joke herself.
  
  (So far I have found the dem campaign totally lacking in humour - apart from Biden's unconscious comedy. It was the humour in the repub ads on Obama that got so much impact through YouTube. Free campaign publicuty.)
  
  Sarah palin will hit Washington as a go-getter, that is why McCain chose her. All the old Biden / Pelosi / Reid.style of pork-barrel icould be going out of the window come January. That is what they will be trying to sell to the American people - and it could be highly persuasive given the sheer unpoularity of Congress and all its works
  
  155 RealFrigid
  
  You are right. Nowhere has the BBC reported the Dem luny fringe out on the streets of denver, and now rioting in St Paul. I suppose they simply see that kind of behaviour as normal ?
  
  
  A couple of months ago I had dinner in London with a businessman from Alaska. When Palin came up in conversation as an outside chance for the VP nomination, I asked him what he thought of her. He said he had clashed with her, and explained the circumstances. He disagreed with a lot of her politics. But he did not raise any doubts regarding her probity. As an opponent - but a sage kind of guy, over here for a golfing fortnight in Ireland - I would have expected him to have pointed out any real character flaws, any Achilles' heel. He didn't.
  
  
  
  
  

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• 191. At 09:57am on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  To aquarizonagal
  
  The film you really wanted was "Passport to Pimlico"
  

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• 192. At 10:01am on 03 Sep 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

  Post 78 Gary A Hill - Oil would indeed be a reason to hold onto Alaska against the wishes of the Alaskans but would it be morally correct to deny the democratic will? Besides the Alskans would still sell their oil to the US and the US could let them take all the environmental flack when they start drilling in the unspoilt wilderness. Oil wouldn't apply to say Rhode Island becoming independent - why should not any state have the right to independence?
  
  Posts 114 aquarizonagal and 116 old nat - the mouse that roared - brilliant stuff. that's my weekend dvd sorted out now. the sequel was OK but not nearly as good.
  As for aquarizonagal being invaded - surely not. You weren't planning to set up terrorist training camps and /or strike oil were you?
  
  Post 130- David Cunard - Commodus absence is easily explained. He's too busy polishing off his speech to the convention.
  
  You're all doing very well !!

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• 193. At 10:10am on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  
  The Republican party were lukewarm in their enthusiasm for McCain until he produced Senator Palin out of a hat and the enthusiasm for her seems to be based on her ultra religious conservatism.
  
  If the GOP continues to make its choices on such a narrow and exclusive basis, it will become no more than a sect and will abdicate its tradition of offering a government for all the people.
  
  

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• 194. At 10:23am on 03 Sep 2008, duhbuh wrote:

  If Sarah Palin spent years attending a black separatist church with an America-hating preacher, had the help of members of the Weather Underground to launch her political career, and John Edwards had been the father of her daughter's child, Justin Webb wouldn't be interested in her background at all.

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• 195. At 10:25am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Justin Webb has been reporting a lot of gossip about Sarah Palin. Can anyone point out when he has reported in any depth on the airwaves on her poltical track record in Alaska ? Like focussing on the real issues ?
  
  I don't think Justin Webb's Eagleton dog, borrowed from the Atlantic, media, will run
  
  (Just like the Daily Kos / Atlantic smear on Palin)
  
  To balance Justin Webb's Dem talking points, how are the right seeing things ? Or even Dick Morris, a Dem with some balance ?
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/DickMorrisandEileenMcGann/2008/09/03/stick_with_sarah
  
  There could well be a kickback against the smearing of Sarah Palin . Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned :
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2008/09/03/the_four_stages_of_conservative_female_abuse
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/MaggieGallagher/2008/09/03/sarah_palins_pioneering_streak
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/BenShapiro/2008/09/03/the_hypocritical,_woman-hating_left_targets_palin
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/BrentBozellIII/2008/09/03/savaging_sarah_palin
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/RichLowry/2008/09/02/hating_sarah
  
  And the Reppubs are now in fighting, winning mood :
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/JonahGoldberg/2008/09/03/the_new_life_of_the_grand_old_party
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/BillMurchison/2008/09/03/the_moose_is_loose
  
  Finally - I suggest Justin Webb pays attention to the doyen of the US political press :
  
  http://townhall.com/columnists/RobertDNovak/2008/09/03/mccain_comes_through

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• 196. At 10:53am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  193 wandering angus
  
  You misunderstand. The Republican party likes Palin because she is genuine, not just another politicking lawyer with his snout in the trough.
  
  And because she has a record of executive action that is forthright, effective, and beats both Obama and Biden in spades.
  
  And they like her even more now as a working mom - especially after the Kos smear. The Kos smear that people right here in this web keep propounding, despite Kos having dropped it, and despite the fact that it is clearly defamatory of Palin and her daughter. And despite Obama's decency in telling people to lay off the personal attacks on her family.
  
  Guttersniping.
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• 197. At 11:00am on 03 Sep 2008, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:

  Post 191 chill0
  
  passport to pimilico! an ideal suggestion.
  
  "We always were English and we'll always be English, and it's precisely because we are English that we're sticking up for our right to be Burgundians!"
  
  Perhaps we should remake Kind Heats and Coronets in an updated US version where a desperate candidate gradually eliminates all his/her primary camapign rivals to secure nomination.
  
  You're all doing very well !!

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• 198. At 11:12am on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  ~ 193
  
  Use of word "guttersniping" smacks of desperation.

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• 199. At 11:18am on 03 Sep 2008, UKAndy73 wrote:

  JohnAAA - do you not get bored of making the same point a hundred times! You used the word obsessed or obsessive a number of times in recent post, referring to the loony dems, posters on here or Justin Webb, but there appears to be only one obsessive to me!
  Give it a rest for a bit and let someone else have a go!

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• 200. At 11:25am on 03 Sep 2008, tychobear wrote:

  The situation is simple really.
  
  Five days after announcing the Republican propoective nominee for Vice President, the political news discussions are solidly about the character and suitability of Sarah Palin. Not Gustav, or national security, or the economy, or education. Palin.
  
  Consider this : how much debate was there about the character and suitability of Joe Biden to be on the Democratic ticket?
  
  None.
  
  McCain has picked a running mate that seems to be nothing but a liability for him with the very voters that are the key to electoral success - the small number of swing voters that decide any election.
  
  Palin brings him affirmation with the "religious right" of the GOP - voters that would either vote for McCain or not vote at all - but will do nothing to bring over the swing voters that are still weighing up the McCain/Obama balance. A few will vote for her because she is a woman, from Alaska, an utterly pro-life mother of five, a member of the NRA.
  
  But how many more will look at her and see the NRA, pro-life no matter what, religious right tags on her and decide to vote for Obama/Biden?
  
  Swing voters tend to dislike extremes. McCain is not extreme, neither are Obama or Biden.
  
  Palin is extreme, both in her politics and in her selection as a running mate. Combine that with the consideration of how likely it is that she might become President as a result of McCain's age, and she becomes more of a liability and less of an asset.
  
  The only substantive decisions a candidate has during an election is to choose their policies, their campaigning style, and the people who accompany them on the campaign. These are the decisions that the prospective voters see and use to make their selections.
  
  Picking Palin as a running mate was a mistake, and changing the Republican ticket either before or after nomination will only compound the error for McCain.
  
  It might be that McCain is to fall at the first hurdle.

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• 201. At 11:27am on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 202. At 11:30am on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  194. At 10:23am on 03 Sep 2008, duhbuh wrote:
  If Sarah Palin spent years attending a black separatist church with an America-hating preacher, had the help of members of the Weather Underground to launch her political career, and John Edwards had been the father of her daughter's child, Justin Webb wouldn't be interested in her background at all.
  
  
  Who is this American-hating preacher? Not the decorated veteran who ministered to the Democractic nominee
  
  Does serving with distinction in your country's defence now mean you are unpatriotic in the US?
  
  God help the current servicemen
  
  With such peverted logic no wonder the country's politics is in such a mess
  
  
  
  

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• 203. At 11:31am on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #199 UKAndy73
  
  

  
  Give it a rest for a bit and let someone else have a go!
  

  
  I did not know that these posts were mutually exclusive.
  
  I do not believe it lends any argument strength when you try to silence the other side or simply use invective on them.

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• 204. At 11:32am on 03 Sep 2008, calrich wrote:

  More info about Eagleton on the Today programme page [ http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7535000/7535943.stm ] .

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• 205. At 11:39am on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #307 David_Cunard
  

  
  chill0: "the Anchorage Daily News . . . said something like this" - Not exactly a verbatim transcript - when you find the link, perhaps you'd make it available.
  

  
  It is a verbatim quote. I originally posted it with the link and it got moderated to death. Perhaps they should be called 'extremists'. I reposted it this way in case what they did not like was a quote from another news source. Don't ask me to explain the logic of that or the logic the moderators use..
  #317 Gary_A_Hill
  Saying that link demonstrates that Sarah Palin advocates the teaching of Creationism in schools is simply untrue. It says:
  

  
  During a 2006 debate, she said she was a proponent of teaching both evolution and creationism in schools. She later clarified her stance in an interview with The Anchorage Daily News, saying that she doesn't think creationism needed to be part of the curriculum and that she would not push the state Board of Education to add such alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
  

  
  
  #329 David_Cunard
  

  
  If you don't know what Mrs Palin's views are, you should not be in the discussion. Anti-abortion, anti-contraception
  

  
  Sarah Palin is not anti-contraception, according to an article in the Anchorage Daily News from 2006 which I psoted a link to in a previous post.
  
  It would help if you checked your sources before saying these things. The whole point of McCain and apparently of his choice of Sarah Palin is that they do not fit Republican stereotypes in political terms.
  
  That is one of the more interesting clashes here. I believe Barack Obama and Joe Biden do fit Democrat political stereotypes.
  
  This is because the Republicans want to distance themselves from George W Bush whilst the Democrats believe that anyone looking like a Democrat will win.
  
  Maybe they are right but it is a shame.
  
  

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• 206. At 11:52am on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  190. At 09:46am on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  Justin Webb's comments on the Today programme show he is still way behind the curve - trotting out mainly the Dem talking points and the views of media on the Dem side of the track in assessing Sarah Palin's position.
  
  In your opinion but she is emerging as a disastorous choice, if only for the fact that she is overshadowing McCain.
  
  " On the question of whether Palin had been fully vetted, he turned to Dem George Stephanopoulos of ABC - repeating the line that had been floated by the Dem New York Times yesterday. Whjy didn't he get any comment from the McCain campaign itself ? Or refer to what they have said on the record ? Mr Webb's job is to bring us all the news - not just to take his lead from the Dem media."
  
  Nice try but doesn't actually answer the question, why was she not properely vetted?
  
  Bad judgement whatever way you try to spin it.
  
  "141 allmymarbles (you sure about that ? ) -
  
  You describe Lieberman as a weasel. Wasn't he the Dem VP candidate in 2000 ? You cannot dispute his seniority - and his judgment that McCain is qualified and Obama is not still carries weight. Lieberman' was deliberately speaking over the heads of the convention audience to the world outside. Diehard Dems may hate him now - but a lot of the independent voters recognise his stature and will not so lightly dismiss him"
  
  In your eyes. In fact Lieberman has become a standing joke. His views are completely predictable and the fact he is "senior" is somewhat the point. You desperately hope his views carry weight, but there is no evidence whatsoever that they do.
  
  "OK you don't like Fred Thompson, and you can point to his ineffective campaign against McCain earlier in the year. But he gathered a damn sight more support than tired Joe Biden ever did. (Choosing Biden was a mark of Obama's weakness) Saying that no-one outside die-hard Repubs listen to him is just your opinion. He gave a barnstormer with some hard digs at Obama's failings - and he is a popular figure in the US outside the politics watchers."
  
  Popular with the extreme right. His speech (again very predictable) was exactly the proof Obama needed to prove how extreme the republicans have become.
  
  
  "RealFrigid has already told the joke but it is worth repeating You wanna know the difference between Sarah Palin and a pit-bull terrier ?
  
  Lipstick - and she told that joke herself.
  
  (So far I have found the dem campaign totally lacking in humour)"
  
  Have to agree, picking someone as a running mate who ardently beleives the world was created in seven days, rape victims have no rights - have made the republicans hilarious.
  
  "Sarah palin will hit Washington as a go-getter, that is why McCain chose her. All the old Biden / Pelosi / Reid.style of pork-barrel icould be going out of the window come January. That is what they will be trying to sell to the American people - and it could be highly persuasive given the sheer unpoularity of Congress and all its works"
  
  You think so. It doesn't strike you that Governors of Alaska jump into pork barerells up to their necks. That trying to administer a small poplationover a vast area requires astuteness with the Washington begging bowl?
  
  And if Alaska is anything like Tasmania and other regions with small pops where politics is always personal and visceral, there will be plenty more revelations to come.
  
  McCain has made a disastorous choice and having been kept off the front pages at his own convention is going to infuriate him
  
  Obama must not be able to beleive his luck.
  
  
  

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• 207. At 12:06pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  199 Andy
  
  Yes I think Justin Webb's reporting chimes too much with the day's Dem talking points. I am not the only one who feels that way. And I will continue to say so, it is fair comment on the BBC's coverage of the US political scene.
  
  And I will post links to stuff that may show whether he is reflecting both sides evenly.
  
  Maybe he will make a change and run with a Repub talking point or two some time.
  
  Like, for example, the appalling lack of executive experience on the Dem ticket.
  
  As regards the vile smear on Sarah Palin and her teenage daughter - I will comment on it whenever I like, thank you. People keep raising that dead dog. As a matter of common decency the smear should be rebutted every time it appears.
  
  
  
  

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• 208. At 12:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, DominickVila wrote:

  Gov. Sarah Palin was chosen for three reasons: she is a conservative evangelical, her gender, and her blue collar roots.
  The first consideration is intended to rally the base of the Republican party, which was very uncomfortable with McCain's moderate record and the statements he has made about religious leaders. This objective has been a resounding success.
  It remains to be seen how her gender influences the decision of female voters. It will, obviously, be a factor among conservative women, but since they were planning to vote for McCain anyway that is pretty much a wash. Frankly, I doubt pro-choice women will vote for her.
  Her blue collar background, and her husband's, may make a difference in crucial states such as Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan.
  Overall, the GOP choice for VP was a good one and, in my opinion, all the distractions that have emerged in recent days will become irrelevant as soon as people learn more about a candidate who remains an unknown to most of us.
  I think it is important to remember that Biden and Palin were chosen to attract Independent voters, not the party faithful who more often than not vote along party lines.

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• 209. At 12:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  196:
  
  I presume you mean 'genuine' as in:
  
  Natural, not foreign or acquired, proper or peculiar to a person or thing, native.
  
  But I rather like the example the OED then gives from Drayton's Poly-Olbion:
  
  A constant Mayden still she onely did remaine,
  The last her genuine lawes which stoutly did retaine.
  
  Except that neither Palin, nor her daughter, 'stoutly did retaine' those 'genuine lawes' ;)
  
  In fact, the real problem would seem to be that idea 'of nothing foreign or acquired', or as one might also say 'nothing fake'. Consider, for instance, whether someone who is 'genuine' would do the following. I quote:
  
  Levi Johnston, the boyfriend of Sarah Palin's 17-year-old pregnant daughter Bristol, is going to join the Palin family at the Republican National Convention, according to his mother.
  Sherry Johnston told reporters that Levi left Alaska on Tuesday to fly to St. Paul, Minn., according to the Associated Press.
  
  ..
  
  The New York Post has excerpts from Johnston's MySpace page:
  
  (Which I am not allowed to reproduce because the text contains dotted references to certain Anglo-Saxon words and epithets. Suffice to say that he is proud to be a 'redneck', and has a taste for aggressive posturing and language). The bit I can reproduce is as follows:
  
  He also claims to be "in a relationship," but states, "I don't want kids."
  
  So he's a nice 18 year old boy who is ready to get married and take responsibility for a child: in fact, just the kind of chap a mother would parade around while wanting her daughter's privacy respected. Just the kind of thing anyone would do who had the genuine interests of their children at heart.
  
  I'm sure the traditional method of soap and water will do wonders for his lexical skills.
  

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• 210. At 12:26pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  What's JohnAAA's problem and why does here care so much what the BBC's Justin Webb is reporting?
  
  As a BBC licence payer I don't like some self obsessed American Republican telling us what the BBC should be reporting on the US election.
  
  I think Justin is doing a fine job.
  
  On the election: it seems everyone is interested in Obama and McCain seems like Richard III.

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• 211. At 12:27pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  At last there is some real dirt from Alaska : I should have assumed that the Dem attack machine would finally find some
  
  
  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2073553/posts?page=13#13
  
  I see people are suggesting that Obama could get a job in the TV industry if and well he fails. He's great with a teleprompter so a TV monitor would be no big deal. And if he didn't want to be fronto of camera - his mellifluous tones would be great for voiceovers. But he wouldn't get any exec job in TV - he hasn't got any exec experience.
  
  Meanwhile Team Obama are still trying to use muscle to block TV ads about his links with William Ayers. Do liberals think free speech belongs only to them ?
  
  http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=305248120539041
  
  (Will Justin Webb ver talk about Ayers ? The right are buzzing with it. Right or wrong - it is an issue. An issue that the BBC should not be keeping from us. Last time round they mostly failed to report on the Swift Boat stuff either way - failed to flag up what was happening in the battle.)
  

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• 212. At 12:31pm on 03 Sep 2008, UKAndy73 wrote:

  203. At 11:31am on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote: "I did not know that these posts were mutually exclusive.
  
  I do not believe it lends any argument strength when you try to silence the other side or simply use invective on them."
  
  Not at all, just no point saying the same thing over and over (and over). That is not an argument, just a blinklered opinion.
  
  

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• 213. At 12:32pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  ""Sarah palin will hit Washington as a go-getter, that is why McCain chose her. All the old Biden / Pelosi / Reid.style of pork-barrel icould be going out of the window come January. That is what they will be trying to sell to the American people - and it could be highly persuasive given the sheer unpoularity of Congress and all its works"
  
  Actually it is always amusing with these so called backwoodsman types.
  
  They barrell in, sprouting anti-federal nonsense, are promptly tied up in knots and usually end up being more corrupt.
  
  Pork barreling, like gerrymandering, has been part of the US political system for centuries.
  
  No one is going to change that, and certainly no half educated Alaskan whose state relies on Federal Government handouts

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• 214. At 12:39pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  123. SamTyler1969: "Why would feminists support a woman who endorses not a single aspect of the feminist movement?"
  
  They are not feminists. They are liberals.
  
  Feminism, to them, means providing them with abortions.
  
  They are convinced they hold the "real" and "right" positions for women. There were many men who used to believe they knew what was "right" for women, too. They were called "chauvinists", or, if they were really convinced of their superiority, "male chauvinist pigs."
  
  Feminism (in my day) meant having the opportunity, without barrier, to achieve one's ambitions. Palin has done just that.
  
  A woman who becomes the first vice presidential nominee of the Republican Party has achieved something -- something, by the way, that the Hillary Clinton was unable to achieve.
  
  (Hillary supporters need to find themselves a female candidate that their own party, the democrats, won't dismiss. )
  
  By the way, NY liberals are a special breed. They are not only convinced of their being right on the issues, but they are also convinced of their superior intelligence.
  
  Often, they ARE extremely intelligent and well educated. But, if they were really as intelligent as they like to believe they are, wouldn't they be able to see their own arrogance? They are able to declare, with a straight face, that 50% of the US population is inferior to them because of the views held by the other half of the population.
  
  Glad you enjoyed your lunch. I've had many such lunches. Goes with the territory. ;-)

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• 215. At 12:40pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  205 Simon 21
  
  There you go - repeating the Dem assertion that Palin was not vetted.
  
  That is all it is - an assertion. Which Justin Webb trots out without checking with the McCain campaign. You call that balanced ?
  
  On Lieberman - he thrashed the sock puppet the Dems put up against him. remember that ?Even on the Dem side, he still carries votes.
  Try dealing with the arguments he made last night? (I posted the transcript of his speech). The Dems are a bit too ad hominem this week maybe ?
  
  
  Same with Fred Thompson. Kick the man, not the ball. He said Obama and Biden are woefully lacking in experience. Except in making speeches and in pork barrel stuff.
  
  On Palin - she has exec experience, cut taxes, cut spending, dumped the prok barrel bridge-to-nowhere, has 80% approval in her state. Negotiated a deal with Canada, and faced down the oil industry majors. How come a mere soccer mom has more exec experience in her little finger than Obama ? Maybe you need to watch her tonight, find out what the secret is ?

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• 216. At 12:41pm on 03 Sep 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

  Gallup poll now showing Obama has hit the 50% mark
  descriptive text
  

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• 217. At 12:42pm on 03 Sep 2008, BillTyrone wrote:

  Tech issues all day = test post.

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• 218. At 12:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  210 dceiler
  
  Sorry mate - I am a BBC licence payer. I am not American. That is why I am so offended at what I see as the BBC's lack of balanced coverage.

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• 219. At 12:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  207. At 12:06pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  199 Andy
  
  Yes I think Justin Webb's reporting chimes too much with the day's Dem talking points. I am not the only one who feels that way. And I will continue to say so, it is fair comment on the BBC's coverage of the US political scene."
  
  No one in the US has the right to talk about BBC journalist ethics. Few know what journalism is and after the fiascos in a number ot he US major media sources over the last few years (pet journalists, planted stories etc) few take the US media seriously.
  
  "And I will post links to stuff that may show whether he is reflecting both sides evenly.
  
  Maybe he will make a change and run with a Repub talking point or two some time."
  
  Not if the Republican talking point is not worth talking about.
  
  "Like, for example, the appalling lack of executive experience on the Dem ticket. "
  
  Been mentioned times inumerable. Problem is that the republicans are basing their campaign on the idea that experience is a bad thing.
  
  
  
  "As regards the vile smear on Sarah Palin and her teenage daughter - I will comment on it whenever I like, thank you. People keep raising that dead dog. As a matter of common decency the smear should be rebutted every time it appears."
  
  But only if the victim is a republican? The party of smears complains about smears? Does your "common decency" extend to democrats?
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• 220. At 12:45pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  211. JohnAAA:
  
  Obama would not be hired as a manager in a business. He hasn't the experience. He would, however, be hired in a PR or lobbying role. He would make a bundle as a motivational speaker/consultant.
  
  By not pursuing Ayers, the media makes the right scream more about him. Ditto for that Ayers/Annenberg connection. Journalists don't necessarily like being told they cannot have access to what they believe are public records.
  
  And, you have to admit, watching people accuse Palin of things based on her water breaking is almost comical.
  
  

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• 221. At 12:47pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  "211. At 12:27pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  
  (Will Justin Webb ver talk about Ayers ? The right are buzzing with it. Right or wrong - it is an issue. An issue that the BBC should not be keeping from us. Last time round they mostly failed to report on the Swift Boat stuff either way - failed to flag up what was happening in the battle.)"
  
  So you laud smear campaigns? Seems a bit inconsistent. We need to hear a lot more about Governor Palin, and we will.
  
  
  

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• 222. At 12:49pm on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  
  OMG - we're back to William Ayers !
  
  Its like coming across the on-line version of the bar room bore. On and on and on, they go and in the meantime everyone takes themselves off to the pub down the road.

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• 223. At 12:53pm on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  And I've just read on another blog that Levi already has another son Connor by another mother ... if that proves to be true (and it should be easily verifiable) then this is going to get really messy.

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• 224. At 12:59pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  Well, I am a BBC licence payer and I share the view about a left wing bias in BBC News and Current Affairs.
  
  I do not share the view that Justin Webb is a good exemplar of that view. There are far worse cases in BBC coverage.
  
  Rod Liddle, a former editor of 'Today' characterised BBC journalism as having a 'mushy, liberal' tone. Rod Liddle was the man who recruited Andrew Gilligan to 'Today'.
  
  I believe, left wing opinions or not, impartiality at BBC News and Current Affairs was a casualty of the Iraq War.
  
  dceilar says McCain 'seems like Richard III'. Interesting choice. There is a fair body of evidence now that Richard III was in many ways a victim of Tudor propaganda and nothing like Shakespeare's depiction.

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• 225. At 1:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, UKAndy73 wrote:

  I can't be bothered to count, but I am pretty sure JohnAAA you have mentioned the unsubstantiated rumour to tell us it is not true, far more times than anyone has mentioned it as a possibility on this thread! Then you go and refer to the swift boat nonsence - talk about double standards yourself! Even the right wing press in the UK today can only see the appointment of Palin as a error of judgement - I just doubt it was McCains - who even spoke out against the Swift boat story in 2004 when his draft-dodging president didn't.
  Unfortuately I still think Mcain-Palin will win because almost half of Americans are like yourself and enough of the others won't be able to get their vote counted for one reason or another.

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• 226. At 1:08pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  219 Simon
  
  Again you are wrong. I am in the UK and I pay the compulsory licence fee. That is why I feel entitled to look for balanced poltical coverage from the BBC.
  
  As regards smears - I don't like them applied to either side. And it is worse if a smear is deleted by its originator but other people keep parroting it.
  
  You say the Repubs are basing their campaign on arguing that experience is a bad thing.
  
  What on eerth do you mean ? They are talking about all the time about exec experience and the fact that the Dem ticket has none.
  
  Palin has been in charge, albeit briefly, of a budget of billions a year which she set about chopping, plus oversight of 25,000 staff. before that she ran a town. You wanna knock small towns - go ahead, that riles a lot of voters too, as Obama learned to his cost eg in Pennsylvania.
  
  The Dems are at risk of offending an awful lots of women if they carry on disparaging her exec experience - often with a sexist tinge.
  
  The other plamk of the repub campaign is cleaning up washington. Again - Palin has a clear record of whistleblowing on corruption and fighting the old guard. Obama has simply played along with the corrupt Chicago machine.
  
  Now you may disagree about this. But they are being plainly stated as the core of the repub attack - and the BBC is not yet reflecting those that

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• 227. At 1:16pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  214. At 12:39pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
  123. SamTyler1969: "Why would feminists support a woman who endorses not a single aspect of the feminist movement?"
  
  They are not feminists. They are liberals. "
  
  You don't like one label so you prefer another.
  
  "Feminism, to them, means providing them with abortions. "
  
  Fascinating so none of these women are over fifty?
  
  What if they do not want an abortion, are they still advocating being given them?
  
  I thought they were about free choice.
  
  "They are convinced they hold the "real" and "right" positions for women. There were many men who used to believe they knew what was "right" for women, too. They were called "chauvinists", or, if they were really convinced of their superiority, "male chauvinist pigs."
  
  Most people have a point of view. What are you saying? They should claim not to have the right point of view?
  
  Do Republican rightists claim to be wrong?
  
  Bizzarre
  
  "Feminism (in my day) meant having the opportunity, without barrier, to achieve one's ambitions. Palin has done just that."
  
  And freedom over one's body
  
  "(Hillary supporters need to find themselves a female candidate that their own party, the democrats, won't dismiss. ) "
  
  Has she been dismissed? When did this occur? Isn't she a NY Senator and a prominent person in senate commiittees?
  
  Can't remember republicans paying her the same respect that Obama paid the half-educated Palin.
  
  "By the way, NY liberals are a special breed. They are not only convinced of their being right on the issues, but they are also convinced of their superior intelligence. "
  
  Can't grasp this peculiar logic whereby you must convince yourself you are wrong on the issues in order to be right.
  
  You must make life very difficult for your family and friends by claiming to be wrong all the time.
  
  "Often, they ARE extremely intelligent and well educated."
  
  Which is usually held to be a good thing by most sane people.
  
  " But, if they were really as intelligent as they like to believe they are, wouldn't they be able to see their own arrogance? They are able to declare, with a straight face, that 50% of the US population is inferior to them because of the views held by the other half of the population."
  
  On many issues views are either right or wrong. That many people beleive them is irrelevant. For centuries many in the US believed black people were inferior human beings, that did not make it right.
  
  Glad you enjoyed your lunch. I've had many such lunches. Goes with the territory. ;-)
  

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• 228. At 1:18pm on 03 Sep 2008, DominickVila wrote:

  While I agree that the BBC coverage of the presidential campaign in the USA has been lopsided in favor of Obama, I would not characterize their decision to cover a candidate who, in their opinion, is the front runner as an indication of bias towards the opposition.
  What does surprise me, however, is the decision made by the BBC to remove all postings made by people concerned about recent allegations of wrongdoing or poor judgment on the part of Gov Palin, a politician whose background is unknown to most Americans, while they don't remove comments that insinuate Obama has links or is sympathetic to terrorism. Professor Ayers is, definitely, not the kind of academic I would want for my grandchildren, but to insinuate that Obama may be a pseudo-terrorist because he sat in two non-profit boards attended by Ayers, or because Ayers held a fund raiser for Obama makes Swift Boating looking mild in comparison.

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• 229. At 1:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  To gunsandreligion
  
  Thanks very much for the links to two excellent pieces. Especially the one by Yuliya Tymoshenko.
  
  I believe the David Brooks piece on McCain is also perceptive.
  
  I also believe Putin is the greatest danger the world faces at the moment. It will be interesting to see how he tries to test the new US president. That is an old soviet tradition which I am sure Putin will want to continue.

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• 230. At 1:23pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  "224. At 12:59pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
  Well, I am a BBC licence payer and I share the view about a left wing bias in BBC News and Current Affairs.
  
  I do not share the view that Justin Webb is a good exemplar of that view. There are far worse cases in BBC coverage.
  
  Rod Liddle, a former editor of 'Today' characterised BBC journalism as having a 'mushy, liberal' tone. Rod Liddle was the man who recruited Andrew Gilligan to 'Today'."
  
  Doesn't Rod Liddle write for that right-wing, former apartheid supporting rag-The Spectator?
  
  "I believe, left wing opinions or not, impartiality at BBC News and Current Affairs was a casualty of the Iraq War."
  
  Impartiality is not the issue, journalism is. There are two sides to every question. Often, however, one of them is not worth hearing about.
  
  "dceilar says McCain 'seems like Richard III'. Interesting choice. There is a fair body of evidence now that Richard III was in many ways a victim of Tudor propaganda and nothing like Shakespeare's depiction. "
  
  Really who says that? The evidence is all the other way - and we all know what happened to Richard III.
  
  Complain about this
  

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• 231. At 1:24pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  I think MAII and Xie_Ming went on holiday together.

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• 232. At 1:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Don't you just love all these moaning right wingers complaining of BBC bias. Left wingers moan about BBC bias too - but of course they don't count. If both the Left and the Right are moaning about BBC bias then the BBC is doing a great job!
  
  #224 Chill0
  Wasn't Gilligan and the BBC proved right - the govt did 'sex up' the dossier? So when are pro war people and the Govt going to apologise?
  
  I think the Brits place more trust in institutions like the BBC and the NHS than they do the govt. Enough said.

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• 233. At 1:29pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #227, Simon21 :
  
  To be fair Simon, in the last thread, it was revealed that as Governor she said that if Roe v Wade were hypothetically overturned, then Alaskans would have to decide how their laws should reflect their values. That seems a far cry from what you are claiming.
  
  It's hard to have an objective discussion about Sarah Palin, when people make up positions for her that are not grounded in fact, but rather a caricature of a born again right wing nut.

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• 234. At 1:32pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #232 dceilar
  

  
  Wasn't Gilligan and the BBC proved right - the govt did 'sex up' the dossier? So when are pro war people and the Govt going to apologise?
  

  
  Well no, the opposite. There was an inquiry after which the Chairman and Director-General of the BBC resigned.
  
  #230 Simon21
  

  
  Really who says that? The evidence is all the other way - and we all know what happened to Richard III
  

  
  A lot of historians. You will have to read up on it yourself, I am afraid.

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• 235. At 1:33pm on 03 Sep 2008, John-From-Dublin wrote:

  I couldn?t agree more about this appalling, smeary, down-in-the gutter liberal bias of the BBC and Justin Webb.
  
  Why, just the other evening I watched Newsnight, the BBC?s flagship current affairs programme. They reported from the Republican Convention. First they interviewed the (Republican) Governor of Hawaii ? who thought Senator McCain and Governor Palin were great. Then they interviewed John McCain?s spokesman - who thought Senator McCain and Governor Palin were great. Then they spoke to some Republican delegates - who thought Senator McCain and Governor Palin were great.
  
  And not once did they mention William Ayers. Nor did they mention that Barack Obama has a funny foreign name (unlike say Roosevelt x 2 or Eisenhower), or that he is a liberal pinko elitist commie socialist Muslim. They didn't even call him Nobama, which is really clever, and would certainly change the outcome of the race. Nor did they point out how inexperienced he is compared to ? say ? Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld.
  
  How biased can you get?
  
  
  
  John BBBBBBBBBBBBBB

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• 236. At 1:36pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #214, AndreainNY:
  
  It would seem the Democratic view of modern feminism excludes such parochial concepts as marriage and motherhood.

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• 237. At 1:43pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  "Don't you just love all these moaning right wingers complaining of BBC bias. Left wingers moan about BBC bias too - but of course they don't count. If both the Left and the Right are moaning about BBC bias then the BBC is doing a great job!"
  
  Bias is not too pronounced here. It is much worse in the American news services. The BBC has a great product!

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• 238. At 1:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  "226. At 1:08pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  219 Simon
  
  Again you are wrong. I am in the UK and I pay the compulsory licence fee. That is why I feel entitled to look for balanced poltical coverage from the BBC."
  
  Is it? This doesn't preclude you from being American does it? Americans live in all sorts of places.
  
  "As regards smears - I don't like them applied to either side. And it is worse if a smear is deleted by its originator but other people keep parroting it."
  
  But you don't have a problem supporting a party that openly admits using smears as an electoral tactic.
  
  "You say the Repubs are basing their campaign on arguing that experience is a bad thing.
  
  "What on eerth do you mean ? They are talking about all the time about exec experience and the fact that the Dem ticket has none."
  
  
  That depends on your bizzare definition of executive experience. You are aware Obana, like John McCain is a US Senator. You are saying this is not experience?
  
  Of are you claiming John Mcain has been Vice President?
  
  Or are you claiming any governorship of any US state is "executive experience" superior to that of a senator?
  
  And the whole republican, fairly desperate tactic, is to try and claim its candidates are not experienced washingtonians.
  
  Ridiculous and contradictory admittedly, but its the only thing left to them.
  
  "Palin has been in charge, albeit briefly, of a budget of billions a year which she set about chopping, plus oversight of 25,000 staff."
  
  Very briefly and the jury is still out on her competence.
  
  Senators Biden and Obama have dealt with budgets worth trillions and little things like wars and foreign governments.
  
  Slightly more important eh?
  
  Clearly you do not know how the US political system works.
  
  " before that she ran a town. You wanna knock small towns - go ahead, that riles a lot of voters too, as Obama learned to his cost eg in Pennsylvania. £"
  
  You have obviously never lived in a small town. Palin is already finding old foes coming out of the woodwork.
  
  Remember Clinton?
  
  "The Dems are at risk of offending an awful lots of women if they carry on disparaging her exec experience - often with a sexist tinge. "
  
  Yep her lack of serious exec experience. As far as I know she has never fronted a serious debate on foreign affairs in the Senate in her life - ditto buget debates etc
  
  "The other plamk of the repub campaign is cleaning up washington. Again - Palin has a clear record of whistleblowing on corruption and fighting the old guard. Obama has simply played along with the corrupt Chicago machine."
  
  Has she? That is not what is emerging is it? And isn't John McCain one of the oldest of the "old Guard".
  
  Are you saying that the democrats are too experienced or not experienced?
  
  You seem to be getting confused
  
  "Now you may disagree about this. But they are being plainly stated as the core of the repub attack - and the BBC is not yet reflecting"
  
  
  The BBC isn't here to "reflect" attacks on the democractic party it is here to report the news.
  
  And the news at the moment is the fact that John McCain has picked a lemon. And must be regretting it.
  
  Over the coming weeks I suspect the UK and US media will report extensively as the good, half-educated governor procedes to make a fool of herself.
  
  
  

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• 239. At 1:56pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  227. Simon21:
  
  Gee, I must have missed the part where they acknowledged her accomplishments.

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• 240. At 2:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  #238. Simon_21: "And the news at the moment is the fact that John McCain has picked a lemon. And must be regretting it."
  
  Right about the news. Wrong about McCain.
  
  Lots of wishful thinking.

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• 241. At 2:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  I think the most successful Obama campaign tactic so far has been to brand McCain as more Bush.
  
  If McCain can shed the Bush shadow, and reclaim his "maverick" credential then things might get more interesting.
  
  If people are voting against Bush, rather than for Obama, there may be many people who might flop back.

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• 242. At 2:03pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  "234. At 1:32pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
  #232 dceilar
  
  
  
  Wasn't Gilligan and the BBC proved right - the govt did 'sex up' the dossier? So when are pro war people and the Govt going to apologise?
  
  
  Well no, the opposite. There was an inquiry after which the Chairman and Director-General of the BBC resigned."
  
  
  But it wwas conceded that Gilligan was correct on the main issues, so the point still stands
  
  
  Really who says that? The evidence is all the other way - and we all know what happened to Richard III
  
  
  A lot of historians. You will have to read up on it yourself, I am afraid."
  
  If by a lot you mean none (certainly for the last 30 years) then you are correct
  
  

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• 243. At 2:04pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  225 UK Andy 123
  
  re Swift Boats - I did not imply they were right. I was saying that the issue loomed large in the 2004 election, for better or worse - and the BBC did not cover it proportionately.
  
  (You are still seem to be implying that I am American. I am not.)
  
  There are plenty of attacks that will be made by either side - or are alrady being made. If they are significant in the swinging of votes, I want the BBC to report on them ALL of them that are significant.
  
  Right now we have had plenty of the personal-attack stuff on Palin. But none of the attacks you and I know are going on against Obama and now Biden.

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• 244. At 2:05pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  240. At 2:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:
  #238. Simon_21: "And the news at the moment is the fact that John McCain has picked a lemon. And must be regretting it."
  
  Right about the news. Wrong about McCain.
  
  Lots of wishful thinking."
  
  Oh I think the good senator must be regretting not being the centre of news at his own convention - don't you?
  
  

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• 245. At 2:07pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  Here's some fun from JibJab:
  
  http://www.peteyandpetunia.com/VoteHere/VoteHere.htm

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• 246. At 2:08pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  244. Simon21: "Oh I think the good senator must be regretting not being the centre of news at his own convention - don't you?"
  
  Wrong again. How many people will be tuning in to hear Palin tonight? A lot.
  

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• 247. At 2:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  238 Simon 123
  
  You still fail to see the distinction between executive experience and legislative experience.
  
  McCain has both.
  
  Palin has exec experience, with proven achievements, and has also promoted legislation..
  
  Obama and Biden have legislative experience - in Obama's case, fairly bried at senior level. Neither Obama or Biden have exec ecperience.
  
  The election if for the top US executive - not the top legislator. That is the message the repubs will be playing. Coupled with portraying the dem ticket as old-school machine politicians.

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• 248. At 2:12pm on 03 Sep 2008, ezekielthemack wrote:

  JohnAAA (Re: ALL of your comments), There's an old adage: "Empty vessels make the most noise" and you clearly typify it. Just because you choose to write a litany of responses and ripostes to this particular blog, it doesn't make you any more intelligent, wiser or insightful than anyone else who posts comments to this site that doesn't share your point of view.
  
  With regard to the VP situation, the Republican selection is the most ludicrous in the history of US politics. If the rumous are to be believed, McCain's advisors only got to familiarise themselves with Palin last weekend! What kind of vetting process is that??!!! Do you think that you can fool the world into thinking the contrary that not only do you have a very weak presidential candidate, but also an even weaker VP candidate.
  
  Also, let me guess this right, this woman is a person that is a proponent of sexual abstinence, yet her own daughter is pregnant at the age of 17. What kind of morals and values and more importantly advice, has she NOT imparted to her child that would allow her to be in such an adverse predicament at such a young age.
  
  The fact that Republicans are lauding her for being pro-life and "keeping the baby", shows you how myopic they are in their thinking. What they need to realise is if she had been wise enough to take precautions and use contraception, there would be no baby to speak of and the topic would be wholly redundant.
  
  Finally, on the subject of the US election in general, it comes down to this. You have a young vibrant progressive, who is acutely articulate and forward thinking. Conversely, you have a significantly much older man whose politics are extremely staid and whose health is questionable to boot. It comes down to the simple dichotomy of progression or regression (i.e. "more of the same"). On that premise alone, I know who I'd vote for. Go Obama '08

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• 249. At 2:13pm on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  241, RF
  
  The other very smart thing Obama has been doing is keeping, for the most part, below the radar and letting Palin get all the flak and attention. I suspect his motto is 'when the opponent is in trouble, keep your head down and organise'. It will be interesting to see what he has planned for Friday.
  
  Interestingly Obama is going to give an interview on the O'Reilly Factor on Fox just before McCain's speech on Thursday, while McCain has cancelled an interview with Larry King Live ... that suggests, as much as anything else, that McCain does not want to take questions about Palin that might be uncomfortable.

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• 250. At 2:17pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Simon 123
  
  Why do you say Palin needs experience in fronting Senate debate ? She is not running for the Senate.
  
  Obama and Biden do not have control of large staffs - thousands of staffs. They have not been involved in hiring and firing of senior staff. They have never carried lead responsiblilty for framing and running large budgets..
  
  That is - they lack any exec exprience. Which looks a bit odd to some folks - they are running for executive office.
  
  You suggest McCain is simply part of the Old Guard. How come the Maverick tag if he isn't a party hack ?
  
  

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• 251. At 2:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  243. At 2:04pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  225 UK Andy 123
  
  "There are plenty of attacks that will be made by either side - or are alrady being made. If they are significant in the swinging of votes, I want the BBC to report on them ALL of them that are significant."
  
  It is the word significant here. Plenty of the attacks on Obama are not significant.
  
  And anyy candidtate that bleats about moreal issues etc must expect these issues to be raised, if they contradict them.
  
  "Right now we have had plenty of the personal-attack stuff on Palin. But none of the attacks you and I know are going on against Obama and now Biden. "
  
  Because they are relevant given the issues raised.
  
  I want the BBC to tell me the news and at the memoment McCain's bizzarre choice is news.
  
  As is recognised in the US

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• 252. At 2:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, U3544202 wrote:

  I can't pretend to know that much about Palin, but was intrigued by an article entitled "8 More Shocking Revelations About Sarah Palin" at http://www.alternet.org/election08/97350/8_more_shocking_revelations_about_sarah_palin/?page=entire
  
  Does anyone know of the veracity of these claims?

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• 253. At 2:20pm on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  ~ 243
  
  I have not noticed "attacks" on Palin, just reporting and then puzzlement as to her priorities at this time.
  
  There are people who feel that a mother of five children, one of them a newborn baby with Down's syndrome and another an unmarried schoolgirl pregnant with a baby which will arrive in Decemeber, might have had pause for thought before parading that family as a political asset.
  
  This not being feminist or sexist. It is about priorities and politics.

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• 254. At 2:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #206 Simon21
  

  
  Have to agree, picking someone as a running mate who ardently beleives the world was created in seven days, rape victims have no rights - have made the republicans hilarious.
  

  
  Sarah Palin said that rape victims have no rights ?
  
  #242 Simon21
  

  
  But it wwas conceded that Gilligan was correct on the main issues, so the point still stands
  

  
  No it was not. Gilligan appeared to have falsified his interview notes from forensic examination of his PDA. His view of the main issues about the dossier were comprehensively refuted.
  
  

  
  If by a lot you mean none (certainly for the last 30 years) then you are correct
  

  
  What relevance does the last 30 years have ? Wikipedia says "Much that was previously considered 'fact' about Richard III has been rejected by modern historians. "
  

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• 255. At 2:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  Here is an interesting article by Rebecca Walker, daughter of the feminist leader and author Alice Walker.
  
  How my mother's fanatical views tore us apart
  
  My wife's mother is also a feminist from the late sixties, and it took my wife quite awhile to get over her guilt of having children. The near acceptable solution is then to have children, but not be involved in their rearing, passing them off to a day care center and later public school.

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• 256. At 2:29pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #249, MarkfromOxford:
  
  The canceling the Larry King Live interview was because of some 'over the line' interview done by CNN's Tucker Bounds.
  
  McCain Cancels Larry King Live Appearance
  
  

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• 257. At 2:30pm on 03 Sep 2008, Candace9839 wrote:

  Re: #249. McCain is not as forthcoming with the press in general as of late
  The way we were
  

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• 258. At 2:34pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  247. At 2:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  238 Simon 123
  
  You still fail to see the distinction between executive experience and legislative experience.
  
  McCain has both."
  
  Sorry when was he VP? You seem to reinventing history.
  
  What state was he governor of?
  
  Simply stating falsehoods does not make them facts
  
  "Palin has exec experience, with proven achievements, and has also promoted legislation.."
  
  Palin has very limited politcal experience of any kind and cerainly none to match Senators Obama and Bilden
  
  And certainly none at their level, which is the issue.
  
  "Obama and Biden have legislative experience - in Obama's case, fairly bried at senior level. Neither Obama or Biden have exec ecperience."
  
  You bizzare definition of executive experince simply seems to mean being governor of anywhere. John McCain presumably therefore has no executive experience
  
  You contradict yourself
  
  Obam and Biden vastly more Federal experience of national politics and national issues then Palin
  
  Biden has been the chair of the Foriegn relations committee. In that alone he has had vastly more experience then Palin.
  
  "The election if for the top US executive - not the top legislator. That is the message the repubs will be playing. Coupled with portraying the dem ticket as old-school machine politicians. "
  
  The VP is actually president of the Senate, so we will overlook your ignorance. The president can indeed be regrded as top legislator if you prefer.
  
  And if he and his team do not have legisaltive experience (as defined by you) then failure is almost certain.
  
  The republican message according to you is that Obama and Biden are inexperienced, but too experienced to be elected.
  
  And that a newly elected Governor of Alaska has more experrince then a US Senator and chairman of committees.
  
  If you cannot see the contradictions in that then go back to school
  
  
  
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• 259. At 2:36pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #252, U3544202:
  
  They are mostly half truths spun against her.

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• 260. At 2:38pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  254. At 2:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
  #206 Simon21
  
  Have to agree, picking someone as a running mate who ardently beleives the world was created in seven days, rape victims have no rights - have made the republicans hilarious.
  
  
  Sarah Palin said that rape victims have no rights ?
  
  Over their bodies. Pretty big right.
  
  #242 Simon21
  
  
  But it wwas conceded that Gilligan was correct on the main issues, so the point still stands
  
  
  "No it was not. Gilligan appeared to have falsified his interview notes from forensic examination of his PDA. His view of the main issues about the dossier were comprehensively refuted."
  
  No they were not and it was never proven Gilligan falsified his notes (that is actually libelous). And the whole investigation was undermined by the fact that the PM was never questioned.
  
  
  If by a lot you mean none (certainly for the last 30 years) then you are correct
  
  
  What relevance does the last 30 years have ? Wikipedia says "Much that was previously considered 'fact' about Richard III has been rejected by modern historians. "
  
  It is embarraasing enough you admit reading wikipedia - it is excruciating you admit to doing so in a public forum.
  
  I suggest you read some historians, ie people who study history.
  

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• 261. At 2:39pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #253, wanderingangus:
  
  Wouldn't that be up to Sarah and her husband to figure out, rather than you? Some might ask Joe Biden how he managed to raise a family, and continue his political career after his wife died.

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• 262. At 2:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  250. At 2:17pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  Simon 123
  
  Why do you say Palin needs experience in fronting Senate debate ? She is not running for the Senate."
  
  No but she will be presiding over it won't she as President. That is what the VP does.
  And a knowlwedge and experience of foreign affais is usually a good idea.
  
  "Obama and Biden do not have control of large staffs - thousands of staffs. They have not been involved in hiring and firing of senior staff. They have never carried lead responsiblilty for framing and running large budgets.. "£
  
  You think helping frame budgets for the US army, foreign affairs depts etc is not experience?
  
  Do you know what the Federal Senate actually does?
  
  "That is - they lack any exec exprience. Which looks a bit odd to some folks - they are running for executive office."
  
  Well not to those folks who know what executive experience is. It sin't simply being governor of anywhere for two years.
  
  John McCain according to you has no executive expereince
  
  You suggest McCain is simply part of the Old Guard. How come the Maverick tag if he isn't a party hack ?
  
  What a toughie. maybe because the label was largely self conferred?
  
  he disagreed with Bush - wow so did most of the country.
  
  
  
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• 263. At 2:52pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #252, U3544202:
  
  Here is a more journalistic balanced view of Sarah Palin's early small town career.
  
  Palin?s Start in Alaska: Not Politics as Usual
  
  I didn't know for example that Faye Palin ran for City Council, and Sarah backed her opponent Diane Keller, who won. No wonder Faye gave such a cold interview to the national press. Christmas at grandma Faye's house must be fun.

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• 264. At 2:57pm on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  
  # 261 - Frigid
  
  Must do better.
  
  I'm not the one with the particular problem - the Palins are.
  
  Joe Biden was presented with a tragedy. The Palins are presented with a moral dilemma.

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• 265. At 3:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  If Sarah P's furture son-in-law is to attend the convention this surely is one heck of a circus... and I thought they were all for keeping families out of things. You can't have it both ways...(That goes for the Dems as well of course).
  Is he going to stand up and take a bow? Will President Bush say "You did heck of a job there, Johnsty?"
  In Britain, the children aren't trotted out at party conferences for everyone to go "ahhhh" (or "ughhh") about. Good job too.
  

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• 266. At 3:02pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #260 Simon21
  

  
  Over their bodies. Pretty big right.
  

  
  So when you say that Sarah Palin believes "rape victims have no rights" you are just talking about her position on abortion ?
  
  

  
  "? it was never proven Gilligan falsified his notes?"
  

  
  Just the forensic results, then.
  
  

  
  "And the whole investigation was undermined by the fact that the PM was never questioned. "
  

  
  He gave evidence at the inquiry and was questioned there.
  

  
  It is embarraasing enough you admit reading wikipedia - it is excruciating you admit to doing so in a public forum.
  
  I suggest you read some historians, ie people who study history.
  

  
  Wikipedia offers references. Please go and read some.
  
  Can you offer any links, even Wikipedia, the Spectator anything will do.

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• 267. At 3:06pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #264, wanderingangus :
  
  Although, no one questioned Joe's judgment at the time. Why? Because he was a man.
  
  Sarah will have help and just because you cannot fathom how it works does not mean it cannot be done.
  
  How would you feel, if you were a woman applying for a job, to be told, "Sorry, we'd love to hire you, but we are concerned you won't be able to give enough to your children and family".
  

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• 268. At 3:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  258 Simon 21
  
  You say McCain has no exec experience. Command experiemce in the Navy for 20 odd years doesn't count ? as they used to say - "try telling that to the marines"
  
  On budget responsibility - you still don't recognise the difference between running a budget and voting on it.
  
  Palin negotiated a large deal with thenoil majors which came off well for Alaswka evidently. Obama and Biden don't do negotiations.
  
  Palin has to deal with her legislature at State level day in day out. Don't kid yourself she doesn't know the legal ropes. Obama had State legislative experience (although he seems to have sat on the fence a lot). His experience at Senate level is minimal - he has been running for office most of the time. Making great speeches is not legislating.
  
  You may be falling into the trap of comparing Palin with Obama. I like that pitch. Because if the Dem front-runner is being compared with the repub No 2 - doesn't that diminish the status of Obama ? making them both look like newbies ? Fine by me if both are regarded that way - it gives McCain the game.

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• 269. At 3:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  Johnny aaa Rhymes with KKK;)
  
  Photo's showing someone is clearly pregnant .
  
  Interesting concept ,never been faked before, no film ever managed to make a woman look pregnant.
  
  Unless you have Naked photo's to show (which would be a tad scandalous, but probably very popular with her supporters) you have nothing.

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• 270. At 3:20pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  maybe MA took a visit to the barber and forgot to keep quiet.

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• 271. At 3:21pm on 03 Sep 2008, wanderingangus wrote:

  
  # 267 ~ Frigid
  
  You should not assume that a person's pseudonym for BBC blogging reveals their gender - nor their experience.

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• 272. At 3:28pm on 03 Sep 2008, David_Cunard wrote:

  #207: JohnAAA: "As regards the vile smear on Sarah Palin and her teenage daughter - I will comment on it whenever I like, thank you." In case you hadn't noticed, it's you who refer to it more than anyone else. Of the forty-six times the word has been used so far, thirty-eight are in your own posts.
  
  #243. JohnAAA: "You are still seem to be implying that I am American. I am not."
  
  Thank God for small mercies!

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• 273. At 3:36pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #271, wanderingangus :
  
  :blush: Sorry. "Assumption is the mother of all..." As you can see, I really am pro feminist and I was raised by one as well.
  
  I've worked all my life trying to help under-represented minorities get opportunities in in the work place in my executive positions. I've done things like lobby upper management for work hours that will serve the company and enable parents to care for their children, building child care centers in the work place, and being understanding when parents are called away to tend children.
  
  How would you like to be told by a potential employer, "Sorry, we'd love to hire you, but your children and home life should come first."
  
  The point being, she's a Governor, not Susie Home-Maker trying on her first job ever. She's already had to juggle her life to be the Governor. Would you advocate she resign from that job as well? Can a female CEO have a family of five, or a special needs baby?

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• 274. At 3:37pm on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  Check out Matt Frei's latest Washington diary:
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/americas/2008/vote_usa_2008/7595145.stm
  It's not biased reporting - it's what everyone's talking about with a slice of lemon.

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• 275. At 3:38pm on 03 Sep 2008, adliberal wrote:

  Seems to me JohnAAA is doing an excellent job drawing attention to the Kos allegation

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• 276. At 3:38pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  Shouldn't that be up to the family to sort out.
  HHMMM.
  thats what a lot of fathers say when scurilous accusations fly around town after a Dr. visit.
  
  .
  
  Palin would have your daughters forced to carry a baby conceived because she was raped.
  Full Stop.
  
  YA'll make light of that, ignore that , but screw all the moral arguements.
  Your daughter is crying infront of you saying"I don't want HIS baby . I don't want it"
  You the law ignore her and she kills herself.
  
  This WILL be some parents story.
  So
  Got to wherever you like but stop defending this callous rich @#@#@ as being a normal person.
  
  This is america you don't have the same stayed"class system" once you are in politics you are the class system.
  And she fixed her way to riches screwed a police officer out of a job, wasn't able to have an important talk with her daughter.
  
  And she thinks other peoples daughters should be able to be used by sick bastards and sicker relatives as breeding baby doners.
  
  Cause the rapist will get more time than the girl who sought the abortion.
  
  But carry on you like her she's "spunky"
  she can shoot a GUN.
  (like commander in chief fights).
  
  Total pandering substenceless crud.
  Time for american Idol to run the presidential campain.
  
  Who cares who got pregnent when.
  this woman is like the neighbour hood association lady, in "over the hedge"
  
  Marcus is not but where is mikeIll.?

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• 277. At 3:47pm on 03 Sep 2008, JMfromNY wrote:

  this is not Eagleton part 2 if for no other reason than the US media is defending Palin as opposed to attacking her. It's a good business investment/risk for them.
  
  News outlets have been constantly trying to make the point that the situation with her daughter shows that this is a family with a deep respect for the sanctity of life. While any other points of view are painted as angry political attacks.
  
  If Sarah Palin becomes president it will mean $1 trillion+ to big US business. She has gone on record saying she wants to fund big oil drilling projects on the taxpayers dime meaning hundreds of billions to oil companies, private contrators such as Halliburton to provide infrastructure and to the banks who will loan the money to the already broke American middle class to pay for it all.
  
  She's also said that she feels that this is "god's will"!!
  
  Look at who the major share holders in the US media companies and you'll see that even if this goes horribly wrong for the McCain ticket that this is a different animal from Eagleton.

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• 278. At 3:50pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  Matt Frei says the wqorld is being asked to suspend their disbelief if Palin is to be elected VP. That is as may be,, we shall see.
  
  But I don't recall anyone at the BBC, including round-the-clock coverage of the Dem conference last week, saying the world would have to suspend its disbelief if asomeone with nil exec experience, nil achievements of note, and a consistently far-left voting record is to be elected to the top job.
  
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/americas/2008/vote_usa_2008/7595145.stm

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• 279. At 4:01pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #277, JMfromNY:
  
  "She has gone on record saying she wants to fund big oil drilling projects on the taxpayers dime meaning hundreds of billions to oil companies, private contrators such as Halliburton to provide infrastructure and to the banks who will loan the money to the already broke American middle class to pay for it all."
  
  I had not heard that. Would you post a link to your source?

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• 280. At 4:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Chill0
  
  You have a selective view of history don't you? So then, are you saying that Iraq did possess WMD and could use them within 30 minutes on selective targets in Israel and Europe? OR be 3 months away from possessing nuclear weapons? Events proved Gilligan and the BBC right - as Justin paraphrased: 'events my dear boy, events!' As for forensics carried out on a PDA - you make me laugh.
  
  Your views on Shakespeare being an agent of Tudor propaganda I thought was a joke - at first. But it seems you were actually serious!

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• 281. At 4:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #276, jacksforge:
  
  "Palin would have your daughters forced to carry a baby conceived because she was raped."
  
  Although, she is on record saying it would be the people of Alaska who choose how they would enact any law if Roe v Wade were repealed. As the elected Governor, and if a pro-abortion bill crossed her desk I bet she would veto it, but as the people's elected executive that is her role. If the people in Alaska want a pro-abortion bill, they will need to elect a new Governor.
  
  Simon21 also continues to confuse her beliefs with her policy decisions. But, we don't know what bill she would sign or not. We don't know if she would flex on the "rape, risking life of the mother" parts either. In this case her position on the issues is being spun to suit a political bias.
  
  How about we wait for her to clarify her stand on the issues, rather than make them up for her?

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• 282. At 4:13pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Hey JohnAAA have you got a job to do or something. You should get one. It would stop you reading all those American right wing pseudo-news websites and trying to turn the BBC into one.

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• 283. At 4:15pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  278. At 3:50pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  Matt Frei says the wqorld is being asked to suspend their disbelief if Palin is to be elected VP. That is as may be,, we shall see.
  
  But I don't recall anyone at the BBC, including round-the-clock coverage of the Dem conference last week, saying the world would have to suspend its disbelief if asomeone with nil exec experience, nil achievements of note, and a consistently far-left voting record is to be elected to the top job.
  
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/americas/2008/vote_usa_2008/7595145.stm
  
  
  
  Your confusionis easily cleared up. The BBC does not consciously report falsehoods as truth. Claiming either Democractic opponent have no achievements, apart from getting into presitigious law schools, topping the class, getting elected to the US Senate, becoming chairman of important committees authoring a number of books etc etc amounts to "nothing" is not true.
  
  So it is not reported.
  
  The fact that John McCain has picked an inexperienced local politician to be the second most powerful person in the country is however true.
  
  It si also true that over the coming days more scandals associated with this individual will emerge. They inevitably do with local isolated politics.
  
  Doubtless they will be fed out on a timed basis.
  
  So better brace yourself

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• 284. At 4:21pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  281. At 4:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
  
  "Simon21 also continues to confuse her beliefs with her policy decisions. But, we don't know what bill she would sign or not. We don't know if she would flex on the "rape, risking life of the mother" parts either. In this case her position on the issues is being spun to suit a political bias. "
  
  Sorry Is this correct. I don't think the Republican party would claim a candidate's personal views have no bearing on their policies. In fact I am sure they would claim the reverse.
  
  Wasn't Clinton's marital infidelities held to mean his economic views etc were unsound?
  
  One of the more tedious and ridiculous parts of US politics is how often this point is made.
  
  Yes she would almost certainly change her tune in office, they always do, but that would make her a "washington insider" wouldn't it?"
  
  
  Whihc wwe are told she would not be.
  
  

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• 285. At 4:23pm on 03 Sep 2008, claret101 wrote:

  276
  
  "Palin would have your daughters forced to carry a baby conceived because she was raped.
  Full Stop."
  
  A VP is not a dictator. Just because she believes abortion is wrong does not automatically translate to meaning that a McCain-Palin presidency would abolish abortion. There is still a democratic process for creating or changing any laws.
  
  And FYI, in the incredibly dramatic scenario you suggest where abortion is outlawed in the US, my daughter is raped, becomes pregnant and doesn't want to keep the baby, she'd be on the first plane to London, NOT killing herself.
  
  Let's try and keep some perspective in this discussion, shall we?
  

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• 286. At 4:24pm on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  278, JohnAAA
  
  Oh for the days of a George Marchais ...
  
  You are really on the wrong blog if you want to accuse Obama of a 'far-left' voting record. By English standards even the Democrats are about as centre-right as a one-nation Tory, a few might veer towards a Lib-Dem, or heaven-help them towards Blairite New Labour; it is the Republicans, at the other extreme, who have more in common with the BNP and UKIP and the more extreme elements of the Tory right. Obama is about as left wing as David Cameron, which is why they get on so well.
  
  On the other hand what I do find interesting is that Bush is fundamentally a Maoist, even if he is one who perverts the class-struggle to do so: if you pick apart his policies they are all never-ending war, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc. You could run a Bush regime with Mao's little red book.
  
  And as for achievements of note: Obama has raised a funding base of two million people from scratch and seen off the Clintons: in terms of sheer strategic skill that takes some doing. Obama has two very great strengths: he is brilliant at organisation and he is clinical in his assessment of risks and opportunities, from the geo-political to the personal, and he wraps it all in courtesy and grace.

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• 287. At 4:25pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  Andrea,
  
  Thanks for the cartoon!
  Salaam, etc.
  ed

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• 288. At 4:27pm on 03 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  Young-Mr-Grace (#192), my "oil" remark was flip, but the more serious answer is that the U.S. has strategic interests in Alaska, of which oil is only a part. Alaskans no doubt like to think that they could manage as a sovereign entity with their oil wealth like Saudi Arabia, but they could not possibly provide for their own defense (neither can Saudi Arabia, which flies US-made F-15s). So should the US continue to operate air force bases in Alaska to defend sovereign Alaskans? Why?
  
  Suppose we didn't. Then Russia would move into the Arctic Ocean above Alaska for oil. They could control the Bering Strait and the NW end of the Northwest Passage. Not a good arrangement.
  
  I reject the notion that there is any right to sovereignty for any particular group as a matter of "democratic will." I think people should be citizens of nations which respect their human rights, but I do not think that any particular group has an inherent right to sovereignty.
  
  

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• 289. At 4:31pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  281.
  real fridgid you are being so flexible on this it is amazing.
  And obama goes to a church and he's not patriotic.
  
  She is a vicious republican witch.
  
  thats my view.
  
  I answered about her smoking . it was struck.
  She has shown NO judgement so far worth voting for.
  she has shown that she is not very attentive.
  
  She has been against all abortion(,except mothers life threatened)
  
  That includes rape victims. but you carry on.
  your always so right.
  
  she will ignore the laws she calls for.
  
  Go Ask her, your the republican. they would shoot me or arrest me for turning up near the place. like they are doing at the conference.
  
  Medics helping protesters are being pepper sprayed.But you carry on this is not a fascist state.
  But it is an over bearing thug of a states that does not respect democracy unless it is the republican democracy.
  
  
  Oh and Majik , watched that old show"out red furred dog like creature " show
  
  hmmm Bill o really
  
  he cuts everyone off that disagrees with him so why the hell would Bill moyers be there.
  I recommend Bill Moyers for a medal from the queen.
  

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• 290. At 4:31pm on 03 Sep 2008, ukwales wrote:

  
  
  # Re, MA11.
  
  
  The Taffyia got him......

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• 291. At 4:33pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  "268. At 3:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  258 Simon 21
  
  You say McCain has no exec experience. Command experiemce in the Navy for 20 odd years doesn't count ? as they used to say - "try telling that to the marines"
  
  Being in the Marines is like being president? Hmmm are US officers elected to office? Are there political parties in the US forces? Do they have their own foriegn policies?
  
  Seems you know as little about them as you do the Senate
  
  "On budget responsibility - you still don't recognise the difference between running a budget and voting on it."
  
  And you do not understand what executive experience is or how the US system works.
  
  Federal Budgets are not just voted on.
  
  "Palin negotiated a large deal with thenoil majors which came off well for Alaswka evidently. Obama and Biden don't do negotiations."
  
  Except with foreign governments, state governors, the president, major firms of every description. Again you do no know the US political system
  
  You may be the only person who beleives that a governor of Alaska has more negoatiating experince then a senior US Senator
  
  "Palin has to deal with her legislature at State level day in day out. Don't kid yourself she doesn't know the legal ropes. Obama had State legislative experience (although he seems to have sat on the fence a lot). His experience at Senate level is minimal - he has been running for office most of the time. Making great speeches is not legislating."
  
  Biden I beleive has been chariman of a number of key Senate committees and has participated in major legislation, debates, negotiations etc
  
  His experience dwarfs Palin's - as will be made clear in the debates.
  
  As For Obama his experience considering his years is considerable. And yes he has great success in getting elected.
  
  Pretty valuable in the current context one migh argue.
  
  "You may be falling into the trap of comparing Palin with Obama. I like that pitch. Because if the Dem front-runner is being compared with the repub No 2 - doesn't that diminish the status of Obama ? making them both look like newbies ? Fine by me if both are regarded that way - it gives McCain the game."
  
  No comparison. Biden dwarfs Palin (and it was a risk mcCain would chose someone heavyweight). Obama's advantages are clear and have been reinforced by this choice.
  
  Palin has knocked McCain off the page at his own convention.
  
  Obama probably cannot believe his luck.
  
  I suggest you look up the US consitution and learn a bit about US politics.
  
  I appreciate the note of desperation, but get ready. There are going to be a series of Palingates over the next few weeks

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• 292. At 4:34pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  Mark telling AAA how left america is.
  
  Good on ya.
  
  Johnaaa 'I'm in america and I vote.
  guess what?
  I wish he was left but as mark says he is a tory in my eyes
  
  But I will still vote for him because the other looks like hitler and eva to me.

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• 293. At 4:34pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  Mark

  "Obama has raised a funding base of two million people from scratch and seen off the Clintons: in terms of sheer strategic skill that takes some doing. Obama has two very great strengths: he is brilliant at organisation and he is clinical in his assessment of risks and opportunities, from the geo-political to the personal, and he wraps it all in courtesy and grace."

  Amen! A class act, compared to the rest.
  
  Salaam, etc.
  ed
  

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• 294. At 4:42pm on 03 Sep 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:

  aegeanblue (#264), the reason the British do not trot out their children at party functions seems to me be a consequence of the fact that the British do not elect the head of state.
  
  The children, grandchildren, and other relatives of the British head of state are trotted out quite frequently. One of them (the Prince of Wales) even came to visit us in California a year or two ago.

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• 295. At 4:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #284, Simon21:
  
  "Sorry Is this correct. I don't think the Republican party would claim a candidate's personal views have no bearing on their policies. In fact I am sure they would claim the reverse."
  
  Look at the example of Obama and Wright. Democrats and Republicans have accepted Obama by his words of what his beliefs were and how he was influenced by his church. Only the lunatic fringe are still running around with the "Hussein" middle name garbage, and trying to link Obama to Liberation Theology. What I absolutely hate about politics in America is that people do not listen to each other anymore. They do not discuss, they shout their political mantras at each other, and close their minds to actual critical reason.
  
  "Wasn't Clinton's marital infidelities held to mean his economic views etc were unsound?
  
  One of the more tedious and ridiculous parts of US politics is how often this point is made."
  
  I know when I heard about his using the Arkansas state patrol to bring him hot dates it made me think less of him. It revealed to me someone lacking the character traits I would want in a President.
  
  "Yes she would almost certainly change her tune in office, they always do, but that would make her a "Washington insider" wouldn't it?" Which we are told she would not be."
  
  You are right. I watched intently the Paul Wellstone transformation from a progressive outsider to an insider political hack over the course of two years in DC. He went into office and promptly made a fool of himself, until some other Democrats taught him the game. An actually appealing part of his campaign was "zero PAC" money. By his re-election bid 6 years later he was one of the largest PAC rats in the game.
  
  DC will corrupt almost anyone. Be thankful you and I need not be consigned to that hell on Earth. :)

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• 296. At 4:46pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  No 292
  "But I will still vote for him because the other looks like hitler and eva to me."
  
  Ha ha. I noticed that there is something too Aryan about Mrs McCain too.

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• 297. At 4:53pm on 03 Sep 2008, MarkfromOxford wrote:

  292, 293 Jack and Ed:
  
  Cheers, I'm off to the pub for some plebeian ale. I suppose that makes me a communist ;)

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• 298. At 4:54pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  295. At 4:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
  #284, Simon21:
  
  DC will corrupt almost anyone. Be thankful you and I need not be consigned to that hell on Earth. :)"
  
  I disagree. Having witnessed local and state politics I have to say a more corrupt, self serving, inept bunch of individuals would be hard to find.
  
  All denouncling the federal government, but all queueing up and jostling for any handouts.
  
  About the only reason for running for office was to get the expenses and rezone land (usually held by a relative) for development.
  

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• 299. At 4:54pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #289, jacksforge :
  
  I'm not right, I haven't decided anything yet. Trial by DailyKos is hardly a fair shake. I'm not a Republican, and I can afford to let her have a trial before burning her at the stake. I can be flexible, because I have no skin in this game. You are seeing the opinion of an outsider.
  
  I respect your right to make a quick judgment, but you've known about her for all of about four days, right?
  
  Minneapolis is a fascist state... It's run by a totalitarian socialist regime. :) Check out the city government, and who is in power there. Just because Republican accidents like Norm Coleman(former Democrat) happen, don't think Minnesota is not one of the most progressive liberal places in the nation. San Francisco, may be more so, but only just.

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• 300. At 4:56pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  Thorough vetting? Nah!
  
  ;-)
  ed
  

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• 301. At 4:57pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #280 dceilar
  

  
  You have a selective view of history don't you?
  

  
  Explain please ?
  
  

  
  So then, are you saying that Iraq did possess WMD and could use them within 30 minutes on selective targets in Israel and Europe? OR be 3 months away from possessing nuclear weapons? Events proved Gilligan and the BBC right
  

  
  Except that none of that is what Gilligan said. He said that the government had said that the Iraqis had WMD that could be launched within 45 minutes knowing it to be untrue. That allegation was refuted by the testimony of the intelligence witnesses at the inquiry. It turned out that some agencies thought it true and others thought it shaky (although they all believed it to some degree and they all believed Iraq had WMD) but the words came from the Joint Intelligence Committee, not the government.
  

  
  As for forensics carried out on a PDA - you make me laugh.
  

  
  Are you saying forensic tests cannot be carried out on a PDA ? They were carried out and they were given in evidence at the inquiry.
  

  
  Your views on Shakespeare being an agent of Tudor propaganda I thought was a joke - at first. But it seems you were actually serious!
  

  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More#History_of_King_Richard_III
  There are many other references that you and Simon21 seem entirely ignorant of. I am not your tutor, please read some of them for yourself.

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• 302. At 5:00pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #298, Simon21:
  
  Petty, self serving? Yes. Which is why local politics are the most important ones. In the area where I live, the voters recently cleaned house on the city council and mayor for doing exactly what you described. My local taxes dropped by 20 percent.

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• 303. At 5:02pm on 03 Sep 2008, kinraddie wrote:

  Whatever happens in November it is bad news for the Clintstones. Either way she loses out. Obama gets 8 years by which time she would be nearing seventy (if she is still alive) or she has to keep Mc Cain alive and fit enough, if she wants to have any chance of being the first woman President. Oh! dear where did it all go wrong. This election is to important for the rest of the world, to be left to the American voters. Can't the U.N. step in. What about Tony Blair they like him in the US. and he's free on Monday mornings, he could mediate and maybe cast proxy votes on our behalf.

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• 304. At 5:04pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #293 Ed_Iglehart
  ...and he took his healthcare ideas from a Republican governed state, albeit a bipartisan policy. How will he pay for them as well as tax cuts ?
  

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• 305. At 5:05pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #300, Ed Iglehart:
  
  I suppose it's hard to get around rural Alaska in dog sleds and dirt bikes. Vetting is hard, when you need to wait for the glaciers to clear the harbors. ;)

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• 306. At 5:05pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  282 ceilar
  
  I don't need a day job. I am retired, thanks very much.
  
  I inject a few right-wing articles to counter all the left media that most BBC reporting seems to be based on these days.
  
  283 Simon 123
  
  I said Obama has nil executive experience. Tick Nil substantial achievement. By that I meant getting things done. Wriiting narcissistic autobiographies, part time work as a an academic and nothing to show for really in legislative terms don't count.
  
  He is chairman of NO important committee, as you claim. He has one minor committee - which has never met.
  
  And I presume you would not deny that Obama has a consistntly far-left voting record.
  
  One really has to suspend disbelief to think his stature compares with McCain. That is who the race will be between.
  '
  But carry on bringing it down to comparisons with Palin, That's the Repubobjective. Bith attractive in their own way, both relatively inexperienced. And NEITHER equipped properly be leader of the free world right now.
  
  The lack of heavyweight experience is the criticism his own party opponents made against Obama, and their comments will be replayed plenty. The job is above his pay-grade.

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• 307. At 5:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  Does she hunt polar bears?

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• 308. At 5:28pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  Chill,

  "...and he took his healthcare ideas from a Republican governed state, albeit a bipartisan policy. How will he pay for them as well as tax cuts ?"

  What's wrong with adopting a good idea?
  
  And my friends from AA report one truly consistent result from giving up drinking - they've suddenly got lots of money! If we gave up war, it would be easy to do all sorts of productive things instead of blowing stuff up....but the Military - Industrial complex would have to do some adjusting...
  
  Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
  ed
  
  
  

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• 309. At 5:31pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  JohnAAA,

  " One really has to suspend disbelief to think his stature compares with McCain."

  Indeed, at full stretch, McCain comes in a very poor third.
  
  ;-)
  ed
  

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• 310. At 5:34pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  306. At 5:05pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:
  282 ceilar
  
  I don't need a day job. I am retired, thanks very much.
  
  The spend more time reading. No excuse.
  
  283 Simon 123
  
  I said Obama has nil executive experience. Tick Nil substantial achievement. By that I meant getting things done. Wriiting narcissistic autobiographies, part time work as a an academic and nothing to show for really in legislative terms don't count."
  
  So you nowadmit he has in fact achievements but you don't want to count them.
  
  You concede Biden has achievements but do want to count them either. Being Chairman of the Foreign relations committee counts as nothing?
  
  But you do apparently count becoming governor of Alaska as a major achievement.
  
  And being in the forces for 20 years is apparently unanswerable.
  
  So what it amounts to is - I'm right wing and I don't like left wingers.
  
  Very mature judgement.
  
  
  "He is chairman of NO important committee, as you claim. He has one minor committee - which has never met.
  
  And I presume you would not deny that Obama has a consistntly far-left voting record."
  
  I presume you are now withdrawing your ludicrous comment about McCain's "executive" experience, having found the US military is not part of the US government.
  
  You call the Senate foreign relations committee, minor? You do realise the Senate is required to ratify all treaties?
  
  I read he belongs to three other committess at least. You seem to have trouble with basic facts.
  
  And his voting record has shown good judgement and skill. That is presumably why he was asked to join the committees.
  
  "One really has to suspend disbelief to think his stature compares with McCain. That is who the race will be between. "
  
  I agree and on the judgement McCain has shown so far Obama is on a role. I note the latest polls seem to reflect this.
  
  Fancy being upstaged by your Vice President!
  '
  "But carry on bringing it down to comparisons with Palin, That's the Repubobjective. Bith attractive in their own way, both relatively inexperienced. And NEITHER equipped properly be leader of the free world right now."
  
  Oh dear changed your tune. Biden is vastly more qualified than Palin and Obama is more qualified then McCain who has cocked-up massively.
  
  His first major decision and he messes it up.
  
  "The lack of heavyweight experience is the criticism his own party opponents made against Obama, and their comments will be replayed plenty. The job is above his pay-grade."
  
  Oh I think there are one or two comments the Democrats will be making in return. Obama is practically home and hosed and has played a masterly game.
  
  Watching Palin upstage her boss will be hugely amusing though.
  
  
  
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• 311. At 5:40pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  For Ms Marbles, with love,

  "Sen. Joe Lieberman may have finally worn out his welcome within Washington D.C.'s Jewish Democrat community.
  ...
  "The phrases that must have stuck in his throat were those when he criticized Obama's lack of experience," said the NJDC head. "'Gov Palin like McCain is a reformer we can believe in and count on.' He knows as well as the rest of us, the reform façade is a Potemkin Village. She was for the bridge to nowhere until it was politically untenable. She has lobbied for pork... If I were him that would be a hard line to force out.""

  
  
  ;-)
  xx
  ed

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• 312. At 5:42pm on 03 Sep 2008, Simon21 wrote:

  301. At 4:57pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:
  #280 dceilar
  
  
  
  You have a selective view of history don't you?
  
  
  Explain please ?
  
  
  
  So then, are you saying that Iraq did possess WMD and could use them within 30 minutes on selective targets in Israel and Europe? OR be 3 months away from possessing nuclear weapons? Events proved Gilligan and the BBC right
  
  
  Except that none of that is what Gilligan said. He said that the government had said that the Iraqis had WMD that could be launched within 45 minutes knowing it to be untrue. That allegation was refuted by the testimony of the intelligence witnesses at the inquiry. It turned out that some agencies thought it true and others thought it shaky (although they all believed it to some degree and they all believed Iraq had WMD) but the words came from the Joint Intelligence Committee, not the government."
  
  And thre PM who made the claim in Parliament was not even questioned. The inquiry was a farce and widely accepted as such.
  
  As you know if you know anything about the inquiry
  
  
  
  "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More#History_of_King_Richard_III
  There are many other references that you and Simon21 seem entirely ignorant of. I am not your tutor, please read some of them for yourself."
  
  Suggest you read any basic British medieval history before moving on to sources . There are a lot of them about.
  
  You patently know nothing about the subject.
  
  Thomas Moore was a former Chancellor of England and died a Catholic martyr incidently. He was not a historian as the term is understood.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• 313. At 5:45pm on 03 Sep 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:

  
  Please wait, your request is processed...
  McCain's New Palin Strategy: Blame The Media
  

  "ST. PAUL, Minn. ? John McCain's campaign on Wednesday angrily called for an end to questions about its review of Sarah Palin's background, deriding a "faux media scandal designed to destroy the first female Republican nominee" for vice president.
  
  "This nonsense is over," declared senior campaign adviser Steve Schmidt in a written statement.
  
  The statement stood out for its admission that Palin is under siege _ it condemns "this vetting controversy" _ and for its attempt to blunt questions about how rigorously McCain and his campaign explored the background of a candidate who may get the nation's second most powerful job. It also suggested that Palin is a victim of gender bias in the media.
  ..."The McCain campaign will have no further comment about our long and thorough process," Schmidt said, lashing out at "the old boys' network" that he says runs media organizations."

  Somebody's touched a few nerves, I reckon...
  
  ;-)
  ed
  

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• 314. At 6:04pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  310 Simon 21
  
  Of course navy leadership is exec experience. being a legislator is not. That is why the US usually elects Governors not Senators - or military guys like Eisenhower.
  People who have led, organised, hired and fired, run big revenue and capital budgets and large numbers of staff.
  
  
  I was comparing Obama with Palin in the post you refer to. I said Obama chairs no significant committee. Fact.
  
  And has no landmark legislation to his name. Fact.
  
  His first exec decision ever was choosing Biden. You think that was brilliant, gets the votes out ? It was a weak decision compared to choosing Clinton.
  
  "Obama is practically home and hosed", you say. Glorious. There are 2 months to go, the contest never really starts till Labor Day, the polls are not that far apart even counting some bounce from last week's Dem convention. You seem to be exhibiting the same overconfidence as the Dems had in 2004.
  
  I think it would be very cocky indeed to predict the outcome as sharply as you seem to. I don't know who will win, it remains wide open.

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• 315. At 6:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, AndreainNY wrote:

  241. RealFrigid: "I think the most successful Obama campaign tactic so far has been to brand McCain as more Bush.
  
  If McCain can shed the Bush shadow, and reclaim his "maverick" credential then things might get more interesting.
  
  If people are voting against Bush, rather than for Obama, there may be many people who might flop back."
  
  ************
  
  Could it be because Bush is actually the only politician he can beat? I think so.
  
  I sincerely believe that Obama's only hope is the anti-Bush vote. He has to stoke that one for all it's worth.
  
  Eventually, he'll have to run against McCain. Otherwise, Obama will be channelling Bush at the debates.
  
  Because of Gustav, the dems were deprived of any pictures of Bush at the convention. The best they can do is a picture of him on the screen. A gift for McCain.
  
  By the way, Hillary was notorious for punishing the media by withholding access to her. This was particularly true when they went after her daughter. Ever wonder why Chelsea grew up without media attention?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• 316. At 6:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #312 Simon21
  

  
  And thre PM who made the claim in Parliament was not even questioned.
  

  
  The PM was questioned both in Parliament where he took many interventions and at the inquiry.
  

  
  The inquiry was a farce and widely accepted as such.As you know if you know anything about the inquiry
  

  
  Sources ? What I have quoted was evidence given at the inquiry. Where is yours ?
  

  
  Suggest you read any basic British medieval history before moving on to sources . There are a lot of them about.
  
  You patently know nothing about the subject.
  
  Thomas Moore was a former Chancellor of England and died a Catholic martyr
  incidently. He was not a historian as the term is understood.
  

  
  Well, at least you did some reading (Wikipedia perhaps ?) but not quite enough to be able to spell Thomas More. He was Chancellor to Henry VIII, the second Tudor monarch. Here is a quote from Wikipedia:
  

  
  Between 1513 and 1518, More worked on a History of King Richard III, an unfinished historiography, based on Sir Robert Honorr's Tragic Deunfall of Richard II, Suvereign of Britain (1485), that also greatly influenced William Shakespeare's play Richard III. Both More's and Shakespeare's works are controversial to contemporary historians for their unflattering portrait of King Richard III, a bias partly due to both authors' allegiance to the reigning Tudor dynasty that wrested the throne from Richard III with the Wars of the Roses
  

  
  You have still offered nothing but bland assertion for your views on everything here.
  
  I could assert that Barack Obama made a living as a belly dancer in Abu Dhabi for all the difference it would make to anyone. It would be meaningless drivel.

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• 317. At 6:19pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  the BBC is left
  it is true.
  in a comparative study to the US news maybe.
  
  The BBC is centrist to the rest of the world.
  but in the country that still fears communists(bunch of cowherds) centre is still over to the left.
  
  Just understand that righties.
  
  I think them to forgiving of Isreal and america.
  and Britain
  
  But the I think of them as the establishment and so they have some interests.
  
  all to the right.
  
  But carry on calling them lifties.
  Funny theat witch in t he video linked kept saying
  "obama is liberal." SO shutting what .
  
  Liberal liberal liberal liberal.
  
  
  
  Well fascist republican fascist republican fascist republican fascist republican fascist republican fascist.
  
  Nc crime is a republican fascist.
  
  annie smoke me is a republican fascist oppressor.
  No they are all commies, want to give all our money to china, russia , france, all those communist places.
  
  

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• 318. At 6:24pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  John aaa is america always at war just to create more Vets, scared of running out.
  
  Does every president have to be picked on whether or not they are good at starting wars?
  
  What "God forbid)" would america do if they had no war to employ the president at.
  Would they just start one(oh already did that).
  
  We had a chicken.(Cock)
  used to play with the dog. chase bark , chase crow,chase bark chase crow.
  Real funny.
  then the dumdedum thought it could play the same game with one of the local foxes.
  
  Well you could hardly hold it against the fox, it didn't know what to do.being attacked by the chicken.
  
  Well in this case the chicken is the US and the world is the fox.
  
  And one day.
  
  

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• 319. At 6:26pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #308 Ed_Iglehart
  

  
  What's wrong with adopting a good idea?
  

  
  Nothing at all, Ed, nothing at all. I am becoming too partisan with remarks like that. Do not misunderstand me, I would vote for McCain but I hope not uncritically and not without giving credit to Barack Obama where it's due.
  
  However, you did not answer the bigger point - how will he pay for it along with the other commitments he is making ?
  

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• 320. At 6:27pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  And no dem predicts the outcome because we all know that the republicans have been stealing vote in ohio and else where.
  so we are ready for GW to declare martial law if it looks like Mc crying Shame looks like not getting in.
  

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• 321. At 6:29pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  adrnininny
  
  was chealsea protected better by her mum, is that a problem.
  
  One in Clintons cap and I though she was rubbish. she just went up in my est.

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• 322. At 6:38pm on 03 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  I just heard Justin Webb interviewing Carly Fiorina about palin. She slapped him down after some of the questions for being sexist. He persisted, she repeated the charge..
  
  Its all perceptions of course. If the media is perceived as being sexist - that will increase support for Palin. FWIW I certainly thought the questions became sexist.
  
  And Fiorina got in the bit about Palin facing far closer media attention in just a few days in terms of her background than Obama ever has. Again - that could become the perception, true or false.
  
  Forcing the media (including the BBC) to start digging deeper on Obama.
  
  Frei's article today brought up Todd Palin's driving offence of 2 decades ago,. I regard that as bias compared with what they have not reported about Obama or Biden - significant facts, not trivia.

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• 323. At 6:49pm on 03 Sep 2008, BillTyrone wrote:

  Okay, lighten up everyone, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge over the next x61 days!
  
  This convention will pass by quite quickly in the psyche of average ordinary Americans concerned big time about the real day to day issues affecting their lives and families. Shaking off the legacy and de-coupling responsibility for the situation facing Americans today under the stewardship of the current administration and GOP ? is it realistically achievable?
  
  Messrs Obama and Biden would be advised to crack on diligently and earnestly with their current USA-wide programme and resist any temptation to become embroiled in anything to do with this Republican VP nominee saga. My hunch is that a red coloured touch paper has now been lit and I give it no more than 2 weeks before self implosion. Regrettably, the likelihood is that some people, young people, are going to be seriously affected.
  
  Again, in these circumstances the judgement call and emphasis should have been human beings before politics; party and country ? end of.
  

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• 324. At 6:55pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  #47 andrea
  
  "What this has demonstrated is that feminists are supportive of women whose viewpoints they share."
  
  Feminism is a group of ideas and values about women's rights. Feminism is not based in whether a person is a man or a woman. A man can be a feminist. and a woman could oppose women's rights.
  
  And there are internal debates within the groups that support feminism about what feminists should do or believe. Feminists who are liberal will not share Palin's views.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
  
  "Feminism is a discourse that involves various movements, theories, and philosophies which are concerned with the issue of gender difference, advocate equality for women, and campaign for women's rights and interests"
  
  You appear not to understand complexity of thought. It is black or white for you. I hope you read the wiki article on feminism.
  
  Feminism as a philosophy is complex and has a range of viewpoints.

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• 325. At 6:58pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 326. At 7:03pm on 03 Sep 2008, aegeanblue wrote:

  When, in post 307, I asked whether Sarah Palin hunted polar bears - I was joking... (trying, no doubt unsucessfully, to raise a little wry smile somewhere...)
  But I've just stumbled into this headline on ABC news: "Palin Fought Polar Bear Protections.
  Governor Discounted the Findings of Nine Recent USGS Studies"
  Please someone wake me from this nightmare....

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• 327. At 7:08pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  #60
  The end of the story
  
  Since she is only 6, she thought that over for a few seconds. While her Mom glared at me, she looked me straight in the eye and asked, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?"
  
  So the Mom took the little 6 year old down to meet the homeless guy and they heard about how he was a veteran and had fought in Iraq. They heard that his nation had not helped him when he returned from a war that was illegal. And they wondered about what their nations stood for.
  
  ..................................
  
  200,000 veterans are homeless in America and veterans represent one third of the adult homeless in America.

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• 328. At 7:14pm on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  206, Simon.
  
  My dislike of Lieberman goes back many years. The reason I didn't vote for Gore was that Lieberman was his running mate. His going against his constituents in the matter of the Iraqi war merely confirmed what I had always felt about him.

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• 329. At 7:22pm on 03 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Come on Chill0, everyone knows that Inquiry was a sham. That joke of a judge blamed the BBC for everything, even for masking the source - which we all know the MoD did. Even MPs who supported the war were embarrassed by it's findings.
  
  OK so the Inquiry got some Yes men in to vindicate the govt (they would say the things they said wouldn't they). In the end what the intelligence services wrote in the report was different to what the govt published. The references to 'may have' etc were changed for effect - in other words 'sexed up'! Read later comments by the spin doctors.
  
  Later events proved Gilligan and BBC right and an apology is in order.
  
  Forensics on a PDA. Now is this fingerprints or DNA? PDAs are more commonly used as organisers and contacts. You certainly can't use them for notetaking - have you tried? What credible evidence from a PDA that can prove Gilligan's guilt is beyond me.
  
  Perhaps you have been using Shakespeare's old propaganda tricks on your rewriting of the Inquiry!

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• 330. At 7:32pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  allmy marbles
  
  How did you know about Lieberman so early?
  What tipped you off? I realized what he was when he criticized Gore after the election was lost.
  
  

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• 331. At 7:41pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  yea i'm more of a femanist than the witch that justin had to interview.

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• 332. At 7:44pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  I knew who the weasel was because I spoke to God and he said"that lieberman is a two faced nation killing son of a anti christ"
  
  

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• 333. At 7:45pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  but I ignored him and said he looks "funny" mom. He's scary.
  
  

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• 334. At 7:47pm on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  Don't you think it is amusing (and arrogant) that the discussion of America's coming election is being dominated by two Brits?
  
  Nice to have your opinions, fellas, but....

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• 335. At 8:09pm on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  330, Bethpa.
  
  Joe Lieberman, like Jimmy Carter, was vociferous about his religion. He didn't leave it on the back burner as most politicos do.
  
  People like that often show poor judgment and tend to place their own beliefs before the wishes of the people who voted for them. They almost feel vested with divine right. At times they seem to use god as an excuse for doing whatever they want.
  
  I was proven correct about Lieberman when he went against his constitutents and lost the Connecticut primary.
  
  By the way, for those of you who are tempted to yell "antisemite," I didn't vote for Carter either.

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• 336. At 8:21pm on 03 Sep 2008, chill0 wrote:

  #329 dceilar
  

  
  Come on Chill0, everyone knows that Inquiry was a sham. That joke of a judge blamed the BBC for everything, even for masking the source - which we all know the MoD did. Even MPs who supported the war were embarrassed by it's findings.
  
  OK so the Inquiry got some Yes men in to vindicate the govt (they would say the things they said wouldn't they). In the end what the intelligence services wrote in the report was different to what the govt published. The references to 'may have' etc were changed for effect - in other words 'sexed up'! Read later comments by the spin doctors
  

  
  Another list of untrue assertions without any backing which you must know could be questioned.
  

  
  Later events proved Gilligan and BBC right and an apology is in order.
  

  
  Not true. The evidence which I cited above and you have made no attempt to refute shows that Gilligan sexed up his story by altering his notes. The BBC, David Kelly, Robin Cook and almost everyone else with one notable exception (not anyone British) all believed from their statements, conversations and published work that there were WMD in Iraq.
  

  
  Forensics on a PDA. Now is this fingerprints or DNA? PDAs are more commonly used as organisers and contacts. You certainly can't use them for notetaking - have you tried? What credible evidence from a PDA that can prove Gilligan's guilt is beyond me.
  

  
  Why do you not read the inquiry evidence ? It is Gilligan who insisted that he took his interview notes contemperaneously on a PDA. He surrendered the PDA for forensic analysis.
  

  
  Perhaps you have been using Shakespeare's old propaganda tricks on your rewriting of the Inquiry!
  

  
  I am surprised you mentioned that again since it is the line of assertions which ruined your credibility.
  

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• 337. At 8:38pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  allmymarbles
  
  This article in Salon gives an idea of the tension between Gore and Lieberman
  
  http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/08/06/gore/index.html
  
  And Gore wanted to run a campaign based upon populism...the people vs the powerful
  
  I think you may be right about leaders who
  are extremely religious
  
  My intuition now is that Lieberman weakened Gore's campaign from within...and never supported Gore
  
  Reports are that Lieberman and Lindsey Graham would be very important in a McCain presidency. If Palin leaves then I think it might be Tom Ridge who replaces her. Lieberman is too controversial.
  
  Tom Ridge is from Pennsylvania and might help carry the middle of that state.. and maybe even help carry some of the counties around Philadelphia...
  
  (but I support Obama)

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• 338. At 8:47pm on 03 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  marbles carter is a good man . he tries. how dare youput him in with Joey lieberamn.
  
  you anti semite:)

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• 339. At 8:51pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  A correction to post #327
  
  There are programs in the US to help homeless veterans
  
  
  and people can help homeless vets through these programs
  
  http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm
  
  http://www.nchv.org/hvsp.cfm
  
  "this website is funded, in part, through a grant from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs"
  
  
  Statistics are that over 20% of the homeless in America are veterans
  
  There are now about 3 million people every year in America who are homeless.
  
  (just in case someone wants to help or knows someone who needs help. There is help available.)
  

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• 340. At 9:12pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  Thinking of homelessness and also teenage mothers.
  
  Sarah Palin has slashed funds for pregnant teenage mothers in Alaska
  
  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html
  
  "Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers."
  
  "According to Passage House's web site, its purpose is to provide "young mothers a place to live with their babies for up to eighteen months while they gain the necessary skills and resources to change their lives" and help teen moms "become productive, successful, independent adults who create and provide a stable environment for themselves and their families."

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• 341. At 9:17pm on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  338, Jack.
  
  I would never suggest that Carter was anything like Lieberman. Where the weasel was self-serving, Carter was foolish.

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• 342. At 9:51pm on 03 Sep 2008, invisibleserendipity wrote:

  #334
  
  I suppose if I wasn't interested in British opinions, I wouldn't be on the BBC site?

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• 343. At 10:06pm on 03 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  342, invisible.
  
  It is not the interest, but the degree of emotion and conviction on the part of the two long-winded compatriots that seems inappropriate.
  
  

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• 344. At 10:13pm on 03 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  allmymarbles
  
  Democrats who are Jewish are unhappy with Lieberman also
  
  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/03/jewish-dem-breaks-silence_n_123529.html
  
  Jewish Dem Breaks Silence, Rips Lieberman: 'Not His Finest Hour'
  
  ............................
  
  If McCain does not win Lieberman will disappear from any power positions.

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• 345. At 10:53pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #318, jacksforge:
  
  My theory is that after WWII, some one got scared of the Soviets so they never dared demobilize the military. The inner struggle was the idea of massive Federal power, versus decentralized state power. The tyrants won.
  
  Idle soldiers are the devils play things, getting the US into Korea, Vietnam, etc. and the brush fires never cease. Now the US and it's economy are permanently addicted to fighting wars.
  
  You see this tyranny subtly, like when the federal government withholds monies to states unless the states change their laws to meet federal demands. Another case is California's right to allow medicinal marijuana, which the feds try to squash with the Interstate Commerce clause.
  
  Sometimes tyranny is more overt, like when the US Federal government does;
  - wage wars without the consent of congressional representatives,
  - overthrows foreign governments,
  - uses the US military as a mercenary force,
  - seizes citizens of other countries and holds them in offshore prisons indefinitely,
  - engages in (limited) torture,
  - assassinates people or government leaders,
  - seizes property (foreign and domestic) without just compensation,
  - taxes nearly half of national income,
  - abolishes civil liberties in the name of "homeland security",
  - abolishes civil liberties in the name of "the war on drugs",
  - engages in domestic spying on US citizens,
  - legalizes and pays for infanticide
  - prohibits the free exercise of religious freedoms
  - prohibits the right to bear arms

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• 346. At 11:10pm on 03 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #324, bethpa:
  
  I guess I would be a feminist then.
  
  What I try to do is ensure that every person has the opportunity to achieve regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual preference, etc.
  
  I mentioned earlier though, that some feminism has a decidedly anti mother, anti marriage, and sometimes anti male demeanor.
  
  And, also against what they would consider token female exploitation, for example, the hate of Sarah Palin for being in the Miss Wasilla, or Miss Anchorage pageant. They fight for a womans right to choose what to do with her body, as long as it doesn't violate their view on what is right for women to do.
  
  Again, it's my libertarianism, but if a women wants to cash in on her beauty, or body I feel she should be free to do so. We may not agree morally, but we don't impose our personal mores on others unless they cause harms, correct? I would support a law that prevents a person from exploiting another, however.

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• 347. At 00:21am on 04 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  #346 RealFrigid
  
  The problem with beauty pageants is that they set a standard for women to emulate.
  
  ..and its based upon physical appearance and pleasantness. Little girls watch these shows and learn partially what it is to be a woman based upon very shallow standards.
  
  ?A woman who behaves never changes history.? ..
  
  Women should be outspoken.
  
  The feminists of the 60's who burned bras should have burned high heel shoes. I want women to be healthy and strong and not dependent upon sexuality to gain favors. Those shoes are bad for the feet, bad for the back and limit women's abilities to move and run. It ridiculous in beauty pageants to see women in bathing suits wearing high heels. Some women are having the small toe cut off so that they can fit into fashionable pointy high heeled shoes.
  
  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20031207/ai_n11427905
  
  If a woman wants to cash in on appearance ..well ..I think prostitution should be legalized ..for those who can handle that life style...
  
  I support women who chose to stay at home and I support those who work.
  
  I am not going to support Palin because I don't agree with her...I think she is a religious fanatic...and she will hurt, in the end, the chances of other women to gain power.
  
  

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• 348. At 00:23am on 04 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  and for some jobs women are required by social standards to wear high heeled shoes.
  
  

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• 349. At 00:36am on 04 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  346, Real.
  
  On a collective basis I find feminists disagreeable. It seems a matter of policy that any personal lack of success in their lives they blame on men. (Very convenient. A loser woman can blame a man, but a loser man is just a loser.) And, you are right, they do not seem to like men very much.
  
  And yet they ask men to help them in their fight for equality. That shows dependence on men, the very thing they say they resent. A real woman goes out and fights her own battle, the same way a real man does.
  
  The men I know are out earning a living for their families and trying to get ahead. They aren't sitting and plotting in dark corners. I also notice that when a man has a successful wife or daughter he is very proud.
  
  Do I feel women are equal to men. Absolutely.
  Should they have the opportunities as men? Of course.
  Should they use men as an excuse for their own shortcomings? No.
  Do I belong to oranized feminist group? No way.
  Do I like men? You betcha!
  
  

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• 350. At 01:35am on 04 Sep 2008, jacksforge wrote:

  you go girls

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• 351. At 02:37am on 04 Sep 2008, JohnAAA wrote:

  334 allmymarbles
  
  Sorry you object to Brits commenting on this blog.
  
  There is one small point though.
  
  We pay the wages of Justin Webb and the moderators.
  
  But you are very welcome.

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• 352. At 02:46am on 04 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  347, Bethpa.
  
  Men have always been attracted to beautiful women. Women have always tried to be beautiful. That's the way it is and always will be and is completely normal. It may give homely women the short end of the stick, but life isn't always fair.
  
  But you say, "If a woman wants to cash in on appearence well... I think ... prostitution should be legalized.., " and that is perverted.
  
  I can see the objection to beauty contests. They are shallow (and kind of low class?), but people watch them. Do we have to ask why?
  

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• 353. At 03:10am on 04 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  351, JohnAAA
  
  You seem to be saying:
  
  "I pay so my views are worth more than yours."
  "I pay so my views on America are more valid than yours."
  "I pay so I am more important than you."
  "I pay, but by my leave you may speak."
  
  I am sorry you are not getting your money's worth.
  
  
  
  

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• 354. At 03:35am on 04 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  #352
  
  The problem is for attractive women also...people do not see other qualities and an attractive woman has doors open for her that can be based upon her appearance alone...so sometimes she does not develop as a person..life can be too easy for a very attractive woman...and as she ages some do not develop inner strengths..and the doors no longer open based upon appearance alone...
  
  Who determines what is attractive? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and values change across cultures and across time. There is a wide variety in what people seek ..some men will chose unattractive women and some women try not to look attractive.
  
  I am not opposed to legalized prostitution and there certainly has been prostitution across cultures and across time. There have been more of prostitution than of beauty pageants. I think prostitution can lead to emotional problems ..but its the way some humans are...
  
  ( beauty pageants are a subtle form of prostitution imo..which one has he best figure..which one is more pleasing...etc..and then they win money and gifts.)
  
  
  Well Sarah Palin will soon be speaking to the convention..time to turn my mute button off
  : )
  
  I don't like her voice...

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• 355. At 03:57am on 04 Sep 2008, BillTyrone wrote:

  A Blackberry conversation pinged last Monday evening States-side:
  
  Hey George, how are you doin down there in Texas?
  
  Just fine Dick! All I can say is thank the lord for global warming - ignoring Kyoto and all those other tedious Gore initiatives, what a great call don't you think? I mean, old Gustav has just popped up with magical timing hasn't he?
  
  Phew, good news that you and me don't have to go down to old GOP's convention (Grand Old Papa), have to break through the lines of protesters and tear gas, stand on stage and tell everyone personally what we really don't feel about the old boy and their chances! Sure, the girls will do the biz and cover for us, no problem!
  
  Yep, too true, leadership and patronage from a distance for me too, George! Busy busy here anyway shuffling some KBR shares around and chatting to the boys at Halliburton about how much longer we can expect to eak out the ID IQ contracts gravy train in Iraq and Afghanistan! We need a few more $billion to square away annual bonuses and sort the pensions plot.... how's your speech coming on by the way?
  
  Yeah, just fine! Agreed an x8 minute slot from the White House via satlink - enough to cover GOP's credentials and emphasise my old war on terror and surge favourites - you know, the usual stuff! Err hello, what Dick? just lost you for a few seconds..... did you say economy; credit crunch; gas prices and sub prime crisis? No way hose - certainly not going down that road!
  
  Condo's doing a good job on the road for us right now around the Middle East trying to tie up and broker deals and leave us in the best possible light! Anyway, just penning a letter before the game on TV tonight to the presidential commission of San Francisco about its plan to rename the Oceanside Water Pollution Control Plant the George W Bush Sewerage Plant. Also just studying a brief on impeachment matters!
  
  10-4! Do, please, copy me in on that, won't you! Okay George, I'll let you get on - Iam getting sorted for the Caspian trip in 48 hours - you take it nice and easy there. Oh yes, just read the classified brief you sent on our VP designate. Yes, very interesting stuff - when do we get to actually meet this lady then? Anyway, onwards and forwards! enjoy the popcorn and game - see you'all soon!

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• 356. At 04:24am on 04 Sep 2008, allmymarbles wrote:

  354, Bethpa.
  
  Now, now, you are getting philosophical on me. In your original comment your objection had to do with a woman emphasizing her beauty and, by a long stretch, you equated this with prostitution. I said that all men were attracted to beauty and that all women tried to look beautiful. That is was normal.
  
  If you contend that it is not normal, tell me the last time you went to a wedding where the bride wore a faded tee shirt and flip-flops.
  
  I rest my case.
  
  

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• 357. At 04:35am on 04 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  allmymarbles
  
  When I was younger I had my makeup done in NYC and walked into a restaurant and the men I saw looked up at me. I looked very attractive but I felt like I was wearing a mask and never did that again.
  
  Different strokes for different folks. I didn't want that kind of attention.
  
  I hiked up Mount leConte in the Smoky Mountains and there was a wedding in progress at the top of the mountain..and the bride wore a white dress and when she lifted the dress a little...she was wearing hiking boots...
  
  
  

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• 358. At 08:45am on 04 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:

  #347, bethpa:
  
  "The problem with beauty pageants is that they set a standard for women to emulate."
  
  True, and fashion magazines, Hollywood actresses, super models, etc. I would rather these pageants transform into (male and female) contests of qualities that lead to success, (e.g. appearance, presentation, eloquence, critical thinking).
  
  "..and its based upon physical appearance and pleasantness. Little girls watch these shows and learn partially what it is to be a woman based upon very shallow standards."
  
  Again, because of biology, in humans the woman has the bright plumage, and if she wants to strut, I have no problem with her showing off. My mom used to tell me, "if you've got it, use it."
  
  "A woman who behaves never changes history. ... Women should be outspoken."
  
  I agree. Also, I think the work place for so many years was made as a male institution that uses pecking order, and dominance as a means to corporate order. I believe women bring a more cooperative, team oriented approach to the work place, and the "dog eat dog" approach is no longer acceptable.
  
  "The feminists of the 60's who burned bras should have burned high heel shoes. I want women to be healthy and strong and not dependent upon sexuality to gain favors. Those shoes are bad for the feet, bad for the back and limit women's abilities to move and run. It ridiculous in beauty pageants to see women in bathing suits wearing high heels. Some women are having the small toe cut off so that they can fit into fashionable pointy high heeled shoes."
  
  Agreed. Can we burn neckties too? They choke off the blood to my brain.
  
  "If a woman wants to cash in on appearance ..well ..I think prostitution should be legalized ..for those who can handle that life style..."
  
  Me too, as long as she is self employed, and not being exploited by others.
  
  "I support women who chose to stay at home and I support those who work."
  
  Me too.
  
  "I am not going to support Palin because I don't agree with her...I think she is a religious fanatic...and she will hurt, in the end, the chances of other women to gain power."
  
  :) Different fanatics for different folks. I'm not certain yet how I feel about her. I want her to get a fair chance to show her character, before I jump to any judgment. She is adored in Alaska. She is very different type of politician than Hillary Clinton.

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• 359. At 01:34am on 05 Sep 2008, bethpa wrote:

  real frigid
  
  Yes burn your neck tie : ) and they do cut off blood to the brain if too tight..that is actually true and neck ties are disease ridden
  
  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/05/040525062317.htm
  
  "early half of neckties worn by medical personnel harbor bacteria that can cause disease. "
  
  Clothing should be comfortable and healthy.
  
  Some of the people in power may think they can control Sarah Palin..but she answers to God and she will not be silenced easily if she thinks something is wrong...but she is also in way over her head. She is swimming with sharks. She is a loose cannon ( hmmm some mixed metaphors in this post.)
  
  You think women have the bright plummage because of fashion and make up.
  But there are some secondary sex characteristics that are markers for males and females...
  
  

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• 360. At 02:18am on 05 Sep 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:

  #348
  
  Name one? Other than the seedy.
  
  Inquisitive Sam

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• 361. At 1:08pm on 05 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Is America the home of democracy? I thought maybe that it was ancient Athens or Runnymede (Magna Carta) or the Paris Bastille or something.
  
  Isn't the USA infamous for invading emerging democracies in central and South America and installing right-wing dictatorships, especially during the seventies?

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• 362. At 1:12pm on 05 Sep 2008, dceilar wrote:

  Not to mention genocide in Cambodia.

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