Debate expectations
And so to the Big Debate and a view of Joe Biden here that is unusual in the British press, but asks some hard and reasonable questions about him.
A view of Sarah Palin here that suggests she has an ability to crash and burn or remind us all of Ronnie (Reagan, that is) at his best: just dunno which yet.
I suspect they made a mistake in getting a highly educated woman to be the surrogate Palin figure in the practice sessions for Mr Biden. The whole point of Mrs Palin (her degree is in journalism for goodness sake!) and her strength until the party hacks got to her, was that she was unschooled, unsmooth, imperfect.
If she brings that to the debate she could throw Biden off the deep end.
Hello, I'm 
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Oh, the plagiarism charge again. Coincidentally, the same problem has come up with PM Harper of Canada:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/30/rae-harper.html
I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, myself.
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Dear Justin,
I have a strong feeling that you and all those who so adore the Empty-Man-With-Good-Teeth are in for a shock. Sarah Palin will indeed most probably throw
Joe Biden off the deep end. After, that is , she has chopped him up into moose cutlet format.
Regards, Seamus.
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It depends on the following
Will Palin be herself and be able to answer the questions?
Will Biden avoid the gaffes and not put everyone to sleep?
Will the moderator do his job?
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I am not a fan of the President Reagan's fiscal and economic policies, but Sarah Palin is definitely no Ronald Reagan. Her main attributes, as they relate to her bid for the VP spot, are her gender, religious convictions, and middle class roots. Aside from that she is totally unqualified for the position she is seeking.
The fiscal and economic policies of President Reagan helped create an era of government, corporate and personal irresponsibility that culminated in the problems we are now experiencing, but he was an inspirational, honest, caring, and charismatic leader that most of us remember with great fondness.
Frankly, comparing Gov. Palin to President Reagan is an insult to his legacy.
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Palin is beginning to look like a bad choice. Not because she lacks the resume of a Joe Biden but because she appears to me to be as, John McCain said of George W. Bush, " not intellectually curious". I don't see any evidence that she is concerned with or even frankly cares about any of the pressing international issues facing the United States. I'm no intellectual (as you can see by my spelling) and have only worked in call centres etc but I know what is going on in the world. It concerns me that a person who could potentially become President seems less informed about current affairs and political thinking than I am.
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My expectations for the VP debate is that Sarah Palin will limit her participation to prepared speeches to avoid high profile gaffes, while Joe Biden is liable to get carried away with his long winded tendencies.
Sarah has made several mistakes recently, including the unintended endorsement of Obama's policies in direct contradiction to McCain's. I am sure she is being coached and told to curtail her statements.
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An astute reminder that Joe Biden and the democrats should not take this debate for granted. There is more pressure on Biden due to the greater level of expectation.
As long as he remains calm, Biden should be able to manage Sarah Palin. Barack Obama did not win the first presidential debate, but popular (though not press) opinion seemed to indicate many people thought that he had. This was (I suspect) due to the more professional manner of his counternance, compared to McCain who made no eye contact, frequently interrupted and seemed to be too reliant on sarcasm to express his disagreement with his opponent.
Biden doesn't need to win the argument, he just needs to look like he does. That of course, is where he runs the risk of coming unstuck. Too pushy and both he and Obama may pay a price for it.
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I am still hoping that the McCain people will
send Tina Fey in as a double and make Joe Biden
look totally ridiculous. Then, she could go overseas
and do the same to Putin.
Just trying to be helpful, as usual...
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What Biden has to do is throw her off her feed. In other words he has to make her diverge from her scripted speeches. Lighthearted teasing or goading might do this.
She could either answer with her usual irrelevancies (pure Palin and idiotic) or she could defend herself and maybe we would see the real Palin, whoever that is.
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I would rather vote for Tina Frey. She is less annoying.
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My guess would be , Palin will be clueless, but agressive, even offensive at times, and evasive to cover up her weakness; Biden will be hampered as he can't seriously argue with her, as that would make her look even more stupid, and in turn make him look like an elitist sexist .
As a result, pro-dems will consider her an embarrassing failure, hick-reps will keep loving her no matter what.
Biden, I don't know, will anyone even look at him ? He's the 'winner' by default, how boring. ;)
The media will do their point counting, and it will be a tie, but swing voters might judge differently again.
Anyways, it'll be painful to watch, and I'm not going to miss a second of the debate. ;)
Same old.
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#1 - Gary_A_Hill
Depends who you are imitating. Kinnock - the guy who blew an election in one evening in Sheffield?
Flattery get's you nowhere it seems.
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One of the worst facets of the US electoral system is that if John McCain were to be elected and "stroke out" the following day then Gov. Palin would become the Commander in Chief. I am not sure that anyone is ready for that!
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Interesting articles.
After reading the LAT article, I'll bet the McCain strategy will be to present Palin as more "hockey mom" than "pit bull." That's the Palin her followers love...they want to see "Mr(s). Smith Goes to Washington" in the debate, and I bet that's what the McCain camp is going to try to deliver.
I don't envy Joe Biden...he's walking into a minefield. I can't imagine what their strategy is going to be..."Just keep talking and don't look her in the eyes, okay Joey"?
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#5. MICKBURKE: "Palin is beginning to look like a bad choice."
beginning?? It was pretty obvious from the git-go!
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I'd probably be insulted if I was asked to be a stand-in for Palin, but I'm glad Biden is still practicing up. Palin could surprise him if he gets too overconfident.
But let's face it - what was that article in which one analyst said the problem was that Joe B. knew so much and Palin knew so little? Seems like between his overexperience and her inexperience, we're in for an entertaining night.
I'm hoping she loses her temper. She always comes off so annoyingly catty when that happens. It'd destroy their election chances for good! yipee!
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McCain was for WAR in IRAQ 2 months after 9/11.
McCain for Iraq war
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I'll just note that Biden had given that speech several times before, crediting Kinnock, in the preceding weeks, and maintains he 'forgot' on that occasion. Several sources have confirmed this, including with reference to reporters' notes.
In any event, it's rather old news.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Palin does not know what the hell is going on, so she will have no choice but to rely on cheapshots and meaningless jabber about Biden's verbal gaffe's. I.e., she will try to equate Biden's habit of putting his foot in his mouth with her profound ignorance of economics and foreign policy.
Biden should go after McCain and pretend he's on stage alone. Palin will sink her own ship.
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Memo to Joe Biden
If he can keep his counsel and play back, she'll dig her own grave...R.I.P.
ed
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If the chairman, Jim, the type of questions and the lack of chairmanship remain the same....it wont matter.
The previous debate was a joke...i see no evidence that this will be any different. Therefore this will play in Palin's hands, the quick sound bite and vacuous statements, rather than real probing debate.
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Ta very much, Justin, for Dominic Lawson's piece on Joe Biden. I hadn't realised he could be that funny. It's all rather reminiscent of that "When I were a lad . . ." sketch that involved an unrelated Palin.
I think I will stay up to listen, now. I'm beginning to get the idea it could be quite Pythonesque.
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This will undoubtedly be one of the most watched VP Debates ever... unfortunately, the intentions will not be due to interest in the next American President and his side kick but in getting a preview of Tina Fey's next skit on Saturday Night Live.
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For those of you impressed with Joe Biden, please remember that over 35 MILLION Democrat voters said he was not fit to be president. Only 5844 thought he was. Half of those votes came from his home state, where he still only received 3% of the vote.
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I see the package to give poor bankers a hand is to be voted on again (echoes of EU countries rerunning referenda on the constitution until the 'right' result is chosen). Has anyone seen any details of any change to the original - rejected - proposal?
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Palin's looking forward to the debate God(s) preserve us from that voice!
;-)
ed
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Biden's choice of Granholm as a debate sparring partner was an excellent one. They also have tapes of Palin's Alaska debates. Joe Biden will be an excellent VP can step in should the need arise. The same cannot be said of Palin, as has become painfully obvious from her recent interviews.
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Re:#21. The moderator will be PBS's Gwen Iffle I thought with a format that McCain insisted be changed to suit Palin, i.e. shorter question and answer periods and a free-flowing format.
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No self-respecting woman can stand Sarah Palin. She would take the US back in time 50 years or more. I have yet to meet any female who identifies with her at all. Guns? Severe restrictions on reproductive choice? Creationism? Cronyism? No thanks!
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"US senators will vote on Wednesday on a revamped financial rescue package" BBC News just now; I heard it on the radio.
Don't tell me that one prospective veep will be too busy in Washington to turn up, just when i was getting quite keen on it?
And here we go again; both McCain and Obama are heading back to Washington, I hear . . .
Fill in the blanks: "History repeats itself, the first time as ....... the second time as .........?"
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Spelled her name wrong - it's Ifill
VP debates
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ref #29
You probaly live a sheltered life with extremists and those who are intolerant of other views.
Do you also agree with the Moonbat from U of Chicago that Palin is not a female
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Since Governor Palin is an unknown poltician except to her constituents in Alaska, I am witholding all judgement until I hear what she has to say. I have not prejudged her in any way either by the sound bites or by criticisms of other people who don't know anything about her either. What I do know is that Joe Biden makes many gaffs, is a proven liar and for a so called expert on foreign policy has made many mistakes. He just made one gaff recently about Franklin Roosevelt talking to the American public on television when the stock market crashed in 1929. You have to wonder why the media didn't make a laughing stock of him for it.
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Just saw an interview on TV by a reporter asking a Democratic congresswoman that her lack of support for the "bailoutbill" is causing major problems and will she accept responsibility for it.....blah blah blah.
The fact that the current mess was not her fault but the banks demonstrates the lack of effective factual objective journalism...which goes back to my point in #21.
Just stick to the facts....which the chairman wont, too weak and doesn't know how to either...hence this should be a walk over for Palin. Bring on the pathos....
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SeansPa, Here's a bit
G'night all
ed
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29, canam
Right on!. It is to be expected that
32. Ubermensch.
Likes women to be barefoot and pregnant.
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Sarah Palin reveals her severe lack of intellectual curiosity once again. In another exchange with Couric, Palin is unable to name single newspaper that she has read.
COURIC: And when it comes to establishing, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and understand the world?
PALIN: I’ve read most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media.
COURIC: Like what ones specifically?
PALIN: Umm… all of them. Any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.
COURIC: Can you name any of them?
PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news…
Wow.
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I do like consistency. MAII insists we should not prejudge Palin, but expends dozens of vitriolic words on Biden.
So Palin is unknown outside Alaska? After that interview with pouting Katie? MAII and I must be living on different planets.
Greetings from Planet Earth . . . it's that quite pretty one with a lot of blue in it by the way. Third one out from the sun.
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War war war!
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I wasn't sure where I was allowed to post You tube links. Like the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkWebP2Q0Y regarding Palin on newespagers.
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What usually determines the winner of a debate is not the substance or importance of the ideas articulated by the candidates, since their canned answers are invariably consistent with their documented proposals, but the mistakes they make, demonstrations of ignorance, wit, and demeanor.
I would not be surprised if both candidates make mistakes; one may do it because she doesn't know any better, the other because he tends to get carried away listening to himself sound important. Frankly, I can't say I am too impressed with either one.
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Ed, thanks. So the changes are that the senate vote instead of the house, the bank guarantee goes up, and some tax breaks are added. Is this enough? Not if the markets rise again tomorrow, I suspect.
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Why is it that Katie Couric suddenly seems to
be intelligent to me? Could it be that I am getting
attracted to older women?
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Ugh.
Sorry about the typos. Its late.
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Palin is poor without a teleprompter.
As we have seen in her interviews, if she forgets her lines or doesn't know the answer, unlike most politicians, she is not very good at waffling and avoiding the issue.
However, if George Bush managed to do it, then she probably can too, but Bush had a lot more practice as Governor of Texas and a lot more prior experience with taking media questions.
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O please Justin, the British press asking tough and hard questions about a politicion is rare? Hahahaha! That is the best joke I've heard yet! As I've said before countless times, I think the British press is the best press in the world simply due to its relentless probeing for the truth in politicions!! Although I think Lawson needs to lighten up on painting Biden as an untrustworthy laughing stock! Looked at rationally, aside from the plajorism charges, the rest of his accusations don't hold water. "He (Biden) voted for the wrong things regarding the two gulf wars therefore discrediting his foreign policy experience" He made a mistake! Who doesn't? Hinesight is 20/20, and especially regarding foreign affairs, legeslative bodies don't always have all, or the right, information in order to make an informed decision on what the are being asked to decide upon! Lawson should know this! "He said FDR was president when actually Hoover was president, and he said that FDR made a TV address rather than a radio one. What a liar! He can't be trusted!" Did Lawson ever think that may be, just may be, Biden ment to say Hoover was president at the time of the market crash but accedentally said FDR by mistake because FDRccame in 3 years after the fact during the depth of the depression? And regarding the TV comment, perhaps he ment to say a radio address was made, but accedentally said a tellavision address was made because TV is so much a part of everyone's lives today? think lojically man! I'm not saying that I think in any way that these gafs are justifyed, but nor am I saying that Biden is a Nazi either because of them!! Americans realize that he makes gafs, but have come to accept it. I tell you, if Biden does become president, at least you Brits will be laughing at his gafs rather than his sheir stupidity like you do at Bush now! That's an improvement, huh?
Meanwhile,
Music info
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brit-ass
I didn't insist on anything. I just observed that I don't know much about Palin, I don't take what little I've seen to be informative about her, and what I know of Biden I don't particularly like. I have no idea how the debate will go...but I will find it entertaining if she wipes the floor with him. No way to know until it happens.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKGyhiE7SE
Great video footage of McCain and the economy. The Obama campaign should turn this into an ad and keeping running it over and over for the next 34 days.
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43, guns.
"Why is it that Katie Couric suddenly seems to be intelligent to me? Could it be that I am getting attracted to older women?"
Maybe Couric's "older" is keeping pace with your "older." (Hard for once young studs to face up to it, isn't it.)
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"No self-respecting woman can stand Sarah Palin."
Wow ! So all those Republican women who admire Sarah Palin are not "self-respecting"!
Once again we see the bigotry of the Left - if someone disagrees with you then they are not worthy of respect. Palin has more experience in government then Obama, she is more about change then Obama (she fought her own party to become Governor. Obama towed the Democrat party line all the way) and she also knows that America has 50 states while Obama seems to believe it has 57 ! The MSM has attempted to rip her and her family to shreds while giving Obama pass after pass on his dodgy involment with some very questionable characters....and yet despite all that Obama is only a few points ahead in the polls. The Dems must be very worried.
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#49, Ms. Marbles, it could be that or it could be
those pills that I bought off late-night TV.
Or, it could be that Palin is so dull by comparison
that I can't tell the difference between her
and Tina Fey in make-up.
You'll have to pardon me now, I need to go
flip my moose burger.
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#38. british-ish: "I do like consistency. MAII insists we should not prejudge Palin, but expends dozens of vitriolic words on Biden."
Take no notice of MAII. His reference to you as "brit-ass" indicates what kind of person he is. By his own admission he loathes Europe and the UK in particular. Mercifully he's been absent from these threads for awhile but, like a bad penny, has turned up again. Ignore him and his ranting. In British terms, 'send him to Coventry'.
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47, staphylococcus aureus.
When you get to know Palin you will like her. How do I know? You always take an opposing view, whether it makes sense or not. Actually you never have to bother posting. Whenever I notice a concensus, or an almost concensus, I will write a post for you that expresses your views perfectly.
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Gambler's odds update, 8:15 PM.
Obama 64.9, McCain 33.4.
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Governor Palin has two advantages Thursday:
1. The response times to questions are shorter than the Presidential debates (2 minutes instead of 5).
2. Biden will either put his foot in his mouth, come over as a bully and or patronizing.
If Biden says something really stupid, she may mistake him for Bullwinkle the Moose and shoot him.
Does that mean she gets a yellow card or sent to the penalty box by Gwen Iffil for hunting moose out of season?;-)
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50, viva.
" Palin has more experience in government then Obama,...." Do you make this stuff up?
Obama spent seven years as an Illinois state senator and almost four years as a United States senator.
Palin has been governor of Alaska for almost two years. I don't think her tenure as mayor of a one-moose town counts.
"Obama is only a few points ahead in the polls. The Dems must be very worried."
Read the latest gambler's odds. Obama 64.9, McCain 33.4. I am an independent for Obama and not in the least bit worried.
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Thus far the only thing Palin has brought to the ticket was the initial excitement McCain backers felt because he picked a woman. She's been confused and unintelligible the few times she has actually answered a question. She loves hunting but sure did look like a deer caught in headlights while trying to answer Katie Curic's rather straightforward questions. As for her religious background...before a previous election she ran in Alaska, she went to a pastor for him to pray that demons would stay away from her and allow her to win the election. If that isn't 12th century religion I don't know what is. Who were the demons? People who were not planning on voting for her? Isn't that election tampering?
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"Obama spent seven years as an Illinois state senator and almost four years as a United States senator."
And voted "present" every chance he could. And never rocked the boat. And never controlled a billion dollar budget as Palin has done as Gov of Alaska. And never controlled a State National Guard as Palin has done. And never fought against Big Oil as Palin has done. And never once took on the corruption in his own local party as Palin has done. And never stopped Pork Barrell spending the way Palin did.
And as for your "one moose town" joke - is that really the best you can do ? The contempt you people have for small town America is truly sad.
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51, guns.
Those pills sound interesting. Do they sell his and hers?
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# 26
The voice, I agree.
It's petty, but it seems to be revealing, considering her recent performance.
She also likes to use the word 'like' a lot.
Petty again, but, hey, it's, so, like not sophisticated.
To say the least.
It almost seems as she was living for those 'gotcha' moments, how can old McCain blame the media ?
I really wished the US people weren't such a bunch of PC sissies, and allowed for some 'straight talk' and its consequences.
Katie Courie, to name just one, keeps treading lightly around P. , yet the VP candidate still manages to come across as a klutz every single time.
Those who 'know nothing about her' still, might want to do a little research for a change, both past and present.
It takes most other politicians a lifetime to collect that many of those 'gaffes' - noteworthy ones - only took P. a couple of weeks.
Anyone here who could make any sense of her take on Biden, re. experience and all that ?
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David:
It's OK, I can be meaner. And, I hope, subtler. (Somewhere else in this blog. He just hasn't noticed yet.)
Allmymarbles:
I never really got a grip of this moose thing. I thought the point was it was now a "no moose town". Or have I got the wrong end of the antler?
Or shotgun, or Kalashnikov, AK47, howitzer, or whatever people use on these poor beasts up there. (I'm a Brit, and I've never even shot at a pussycat with an airgun. Never even had an airgun.)
Maybe I ought to google it. The moose, I mean. The guns don't interest me.
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"It takes most other politicians a lifetime to collect that many of those 'gaffes' - noteworthy ones - only took P. a couple of weeks."
The difference being. of course, is that the MSM devoured every tiny little "gaffe" Palin uttered but ignored all Obama's many obvious ones ("57 States", "breatherlysers for kids" "calling for the UN Security Council to denounce Russia" - when Russia is a member of Council and can veto any such calls, etc etc).
As for research about her past , the major networks and newspapers have entire teams digging for dirt while Obama's past is ignored or whitewashed.
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58, Viva.
Last I heard, coming from a one-moose town did not confer sanctity. And given my experience with small towns, there is an old-boy (or old-girl) network usually so corrupt as to put big cities to shame.
As for Palin's fighting big oil, you have it backwards. Alaska exists on oil, and the governor, whoever it is, and that includes Palin, works hand-in-glove with the oil companies. You make it sound as though she fought oil exploitation. She even sanctioned the killing of polar bears to facilitate it.
You need to bone up on your facts.
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"As for her religious background...before a previous election she ran in Alaska, she went to a pastor for him to pray that demons would stay away from her and allow her to win the election."
It might be a good idea to get your facts right before spouting smears against Palin. She didn't go to the pastor concerned...he was a visiting pastor from an African church and she politely accepted his prayer for her. The Left are always telling us to "respect other people's cultures" and yet when Palin does this to a guest from Africa she is supposedly wrong.
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That article about Joe Biden is pretty harsh.
Most of the people who have been following the campaign, have known for quite a while how Joe Biden can be careless with his usage of words.
But you really can't base a whole character analysis on something a guy did 20 years ago, no matter how stupid it might be.
His asset to Obama is his vast knowledge, gathered over the years and the other view points he can provide to a President in the Oval office.
Joe Biden has learned from experience about various issues facing the country. But as he himself recently said on an interview, that doesn't mean he is always right.
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Palin was already a bad choice. So, if she is looking like a bad one now, it is not a surprise to but a few. The sad thing is that she is making McCain a bad candidate for the presidet despite his unparalleled record of years of experience and contribution to American politics, however not always judgmentally perfect one. Democratic candidate will look to be the obvious choice, and it will be evident after the vice-presidential debates which will be more of a determinant factor deciding the fate of the election than the presidential debates--it might just look like a mere formality.
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58. , vivaelcid:
" The contempt you people have for small town America is truly sad. "
Do I smell paranoia ?
Myself, I'm from 'small town' Germany, it doesn't take a 'big town' guy to believe that 'small town' views and politics won't do much good for running a whole country .
Then again, it worked for the Bush administration; not his countrymen, though.
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61-british-ish.
We describe a very small town as being a "one-horse town." Just to funny (and apparently I failed) I called Palin's small town a one-moose town. It seemed appropriate.
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A lot of us are having a lot of fun over this, but isn't it sad that these are apparently the best candidates for Vice President that each party could come up with?
I've seen in books (I wasn't around then!) a WW2 poster with the slogan "Careless talk costs lives."
It's suddenly struck me that could come horribly, literally, true thanks to either of them.
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Here is something that have never been brought up. I doublt very much that being mayor of a town of 7,000 is a full-time job.
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Re: Palin. One comment states :
"I don't see any evidence that she is concerned with or even frankly cares about any of the pressing international issues facing the United States. "
Who are we trying to kid folks?
Did you listen to the debate between Obama and McCain and speeches since the vote against the bailout?
The issues they refered to are all about how they affect the US but nothing about how they affect the rest of the world, their business partners and the NATO coalition.
No words of remorse or that simple "sorry folks we screwed up and we will try our best to fix the situation we have gotten ourselves into.
Both candidates are still talking about tax cuts and spending money they don't have and won't have.
It would be wonderful to hear the truth and a sober comment that they need to scale back on spending especially on "main Street".
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Both the candidates don't seem to inspire much confidence. If Biden manages to keep his gaffes in check, then he can win. But don't forget, palin is 5-0 in debates, last time I checked.
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69, british-ish.
There is a lot of joking about Biden because of his gaffes and because he talks a lot. However, beneath the surface is a most capable public servant and it was wise of Obama to choose someone with his expertise as a running mate.
Someone like Palin can't hold a candle to Biden. Well, in actual fact, Palin can't hold a candle to anyone. She is an embarrassment and comparing her with Biden is ludicrous. Only in Alaska could she ever have been elected governor.
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vivaelcid and Fritz_Kraut
There's a saying in the part of England where I was brought up. "Small town: small minds." Ms Palin has not exactly demonstrated she has a mind the size of a planet in interviews so far, has she?
I was brought up in a 'small town' too. That's by British or European standards:10,000 people. I gather that's a good ten times the size of an American 'small town' though.
Strange that no-one seems to know whether Wasilla has a population of around 5,000, 7,000 or 9,000. If the lower, we'd call it a village; if the higher, a town. We wouldn't call it a city on any of those figures as it does itself, I see.)
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I think Palin is clever enough to easily master the task.
I watched the Interviews and found them fairly typical Politicians answers. The interviewer askes a question and the Pol answers the question to some extent then switches to what ever message they also want to get accross.
Couric was actually wrong about something,
Palin did Identify Terrain as a key difference between the fronts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
That is correct. Iraq is flat [appart from the friendly Kurdish north] while the taliban and Al Quaida in Afghanistan/Pakistan has access to Large mountainous areas to hide in and evade US/NATO forces.
Not bad for a civilian politician.
What exactly is the problem everyone is suposed to be seeing?
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74, british-ish.
At the time of the 2000 census Wasilla had a population of 5,469. Estimates since then indicate the population has increased, but it is still a small town. I could not find exact figures.
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allmymarbles:
No, I got that. It's just that somehow I had the impression that THE moose had been the only moose in town.
And now I'm even more confused. (It must be catching.) Did she actually eat any of the animal or not? I can't make that out at all.
Anyway, I don't suppose it matters really. The stuff she got up to over her house that AP uncovered is a lot more important, I would say.
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I would be surprised if Biden, gaff-machine or not, has any trouble with Palin whatsoever.
Nobody can say that Palin has more experience than Obama. Being a mayor then a governor for two years doesn't cut it. Her inexperience shows in the few interviews the Republicans let her do. Unless you are severely dumbed down (and believe me, we in the US are as compared to 50 years ago), you will see it. The McCain camp had no business attacking Obama for inexperience, and then picking Palin from out of the back woods as a VP candidate.
She told Charlie Gibson that Alaska was a "microcosm" of the whole of the US. What? Anybody compare the racial, ethnic, and religious cross section of Alaska with that of the larger US lately? Her worldview is myopic (we are doing "God's work" in Iraq), she is being touted as a "conservationist" (Drill, baby, drill), and she could care less about any other country in the world (unless, of course, if you are Russia, which can be seen from Alaska).
If we Americans elect McCain, and wind up with Palin as President after a few years, then we deserve EXACTLY what we get.
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What does moose meat taste like? Is it any different from other types of meat? Do let me know, because I'm a vegetarian and I'm very curious about this.
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# 57
OneThought,
Please, don't bring 12th Century religion down to the level of modern day superstition.
And when did Palin fight against Pork Barrel spending? The Bridge to Nowhere incident? That's pretty much convenient but misleading propaganda. Alaska still took the money, just spent it elsewhere.
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75, exserviceman.
Palin is taking a cram course and memorizing facts. This is hardly the same as having a true understanding. Cut off from the mainstream as she has been, she has no experience and no intuitive understanding of what she is talking about. The nuances and subtleties are not the sort of thing that you learn by rote.
She is the governor of Alaska, a backwater state. No one would have ever voted for such an untutored and inexperienced person in Indiana, Idaho, or North Dakota, let alone California, New York, or Florida.
She cannot make up for the inadequacies of her background. No one in her situation could.
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76: Found it: the official Wasilla website says 7,028.
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#74 British-ish
To be called a "city" it needs a cathedral, technically...
Can't see one being built way up north in Alaska, just to be called a proper city. Mind you, would be somewhere to place those trophies of moose heads instead of the usual gargoyles...
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79, Paul.
I guess meese would taste a lot like deer becaise they are related, but I really don't know.
But why would you care? You are a vegetarian.
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Politics here in the US can be very strange! Palin is NOT qualified for VP or any National office. Alaska is an easy state to govern and is supported by the oil revenue and Federal grants (pork!).
That said, politics here can be very strange!
We have too many ignorant voters. How else do you explain G W Bush? Only time will tell this year...
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#64. vivaelcid: "he was a visiting pastor from an African church and she politely accepted his prayer for her."
From someone who still believes in witches and witchcraft? To quote Thomas Muthee, the "visiting pastor", "We come against the spirit of witchcraft! We come against the python spirits!" doesn't sound like mainstream Christianity to me.
America does not need a potential president who holds the same view.
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Regular readers of The Independent newspaper chez Angus fired off a letter countering the Dominic Lawson column yesterday morning so it was interesting to see the article highlighted by Justin Webb.
Dominic Lawson has used his regular column on several occasions recently to write ill-informed and biased pieces against the Democrats. He is matched by his bias by fellow right-wing columnist Bruce Anderson who is famous for stirring up the adrenaline of readers on Monday mornings.
Yesterday's column was a shoddy piece of work from a journalist who enjoys a fairly distinguished reputation. He wasted many words on re-hashing the old chestnut about Biden using the Kinnock speech which only became an issue because it was fashionable back then (in 1987) for rightwingers to mock Neil Kinnock as a windbag.
As Kinnock now has a solid reputation as the man who turned the Labour party round - and a pretty talented politician and speaker to boot - Biden's choice does not look so foolish and Lawson ignores the fact that it is a complete non-issue in America.
I believe that Biden had used the Kinnock piece on many occasions because it mirrored his own beliefs perfectly, but in Ohio he neglected to give the attribution.
By using his column in this way, Lawson is fast losing any reputation for fairness that he held with Independent readers who buy the newspaper to read balanced and well-informed articles. His piece yesterday was totally at odds with both the regular news reporting and the editorial views of the paper.
It is revealing when rightwingers show their ignorance in articles. Lawson's (very)selective comments about the virtues of Sarah Palin and the failings of the much-loved Amtrak Joe only serve to show up the inflexible bias he holds.
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83:
I don't think that's essential any more. Birmingham (the one in England, I mean) is a city but it doesn't have a cathedral. And Beverley in Yorkshire has a Minster (same thing) but it isn't.
I think Bradford's a city now; that hasn't got a cathedral either as far as I remember. It's got mosques, though. A big mosque will probably do instead, now.
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On the eve of the Biden-Palin 'debate', some interesting Electoral College numbers come from Dick Morris: 133 McCain, 355 Obama. Whatever Mrs Palin's performance, even if she rises to the occassion, it can hardly make much difference to the eventual outcome.
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#87 wanderingangus
I was surprised by Lawson's repetition of the idea that the surge had worked, when there is good evidence from UCLA using satellite imagery that it simply coincided with the end of ethnic cleansing in Baghdad.
#83 keksmar
Your definition of a "city" is an antiquated UK (European?) one. It never applied in the New World.
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I urge all those people fretting about Joe Biden's forthcoming debating ordeal to try and get a look at his performance in the Dem primaries. He was generally acknowledged to be the best debater of all of them but he was squeezed of oxygen in the leadership stakes by the electricity between Obama and Hillary Clinton.
Interestly, the moderator tried to needle him on the issue of challenging a female and Joe debated his way elegantly out of potential trouble.
As for rehearsing with various clever ladies, do we really believe that or is it just spin ?
I believe that the greatest danger is for Palin who likes to see herself as an attacker. Unfortunately with her lack of experience and her rather screechy manner, too much of that will turn people off in their droves.
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Reading Lawson's piece on Biden gives you shivers down the spine. Still Palin is not ready and God forbid if something happens to Pres.McCain she won't manage. So although Biden is not flawless, the safest choice is Obama
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#84 allmymarbles:
I just wanted to know. I don't know if this VP debate will make a big difference, if Palin wins (that sounds like a a big IF) the republicans will be relieved, and if Biden wins, then it would be on expected lines. I think the republican camp would be very happy with a draw.
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89, David.
Real Clear Politics also gives it clearly to Obama, but not by such a wide margin. Gambler's odds are almost 2 to 1 for Obama.
There is still the cell phone problem with the polls and we don't know how that will play out. It suggests that Obama's lead iin the polls is greater than it appears. That would support the gamblers.
Even then, we can expect tampering with electronic voting. Here in New Jersey they recognize the problem, but have done nothing about it (no paper trail).
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Paul:
I don't think they're difficult to hunt. whatever they taste like. I saw film of a 'hunter' shooting a moose on BBC4 last year.
There it was, quietly munching a bit of grass, he just walked up to within about five metres of the poor thing and shot it right between the eyes. It looked even sadder than they usually seem to, and keeled over. Like hunting a cow for a pint of milk. Ridiculous.
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#88
Yes, you're quiet right..
"...in the UK city status is not granted automatically just because a town becomes very large, or because of a cathedral. A town must be granted city status by the British monarch..."
I concur with your definitions on 'small town'...i actually hail from a small town in UK was about 5,000 when i first arrived, it is about 8~10,000 now.
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92, Parrisia.
I think if you check out Biden's record your spine will stop shivering. It's fun for the columnists to make him sound like a fool, but he is anything but. Obama made a wise choice.
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95, british-ish.
Here I must disagree with you. Americans in the hinterland do hunt, and they eat what they kill. The cow or pig on your table was killed by someone. The only difference is that you are once removed from the event. In essence there is no difference.
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# 95
Oh British - that is SO sad.
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89. This page you linked to has to be a joke. Arizona is a tossup state? That's McCain's home state! The last poll taken there showed him with a 18 point lead. The last poll taken in Tennessee (another 'tossup' according to the link) showed McCain with a 15 point lead. Arkansas, shown as weak Obama, last polled a 10 points lead for McCain. And Florida, coloured to be 'strong Obama' has been shown by multiple polls to be a tossup state (see 538's poll details for evidence). In the worst case scenario you can think of, McCain would still have 158 electoral votes locked up. Honestly, it looks like Morris made those numbers up.
As for the debate, all Biden has to do is get Palin off of her talking points. She will do the rest. I would love to be able to watch her go down in flames, but unfortunately my own country's election debate is on at the same time.
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99, wandering.
Is it less sad to kill it ina slaughterhouse?
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I have just read about Michael Bloomberg seeking to change the rules because of the financial crisis so that he can seek a third term in New York.
I have nothing against Bloomberg, but I hope that this is not repeated elsewhere. Strikes me as just the sort of thing that would appeal to Dick Cheney. We may not need that Vice Presidential debate after all !
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101 - you're very picky.
It was the way that British wrote about it that tugged the heartstrings in the Angus household.
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98:
Well, yes, but nobody (not even the most rabid member of the NRA) goes out shooting cows or sheep, do they? It's just I thought hunting was supposed to be some kind of challenge?
Hmm. Maybe not. Farmers here do shoot rabbits; mind you, they can be quite frisky when they turn their minds to it.
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100, Ptrsin.
I agree with you. Those allocations are screwy. I would expect him to get (of the toss-up states), Ohio, Nevada and Virginia. It is pretty clear that he already has New Hampshire and Pennslvania. Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnosota would be his as well.
Missouri and North Carolina are starting to lean toward Obama, but I would be very surprised if he got North Carolina.
Go to Real Clear Politics. They have electoral maps. You can also call up a map with the toss-up states allocated by how they are leaning. Obama is ahead by a considerable margin.
McCain should never have chosen Palin.
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I think they should have billed this debate as "Northern Exposure". What a dismal ticket the Reps have. A man who's desperately trying to pass himself off as General George S. Patton with Annie Oakley as his sidekick.
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102, Wandering.
I hope Bloomberg makes it. He is a good mayer and someone like him will be essential in handling the fallout problems of Wall Street. Many of the fat cats will be out of work. The tax take will be reduced and there will be other problems. We need an experienced money.
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There's lots of suggestion that :
a) Palin will somehow rise to the occasion and challenge Biden seriously in debating terms, or
b) Biden will hit her too hard and alienate voters by making them feel sorry for Pail, or
c) Palin will do a repeat of her woeful performance in her interview with Katie Couric.
But a serious question - what if she doesn't rise to the occasion and Biden does, as an experienced debater, simply obliterate her. Will the American voters really be so foolish as to allow sexism (yes, sexism, because it wouldn't be nice to do that to a woman! What about Hillary?) to sway their judgement and profit an ill-prepared candidate?
Can the McCain/Palin camp so lower expectations that merely losing badly is seen as a draw? or losing terribly seen as a win?
If so, then the debate process is worthless.
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Palin is amazing - hardly a role model for a mother and making out every lousy turn in her life a virtue. How terrible for the USA and the world to suddenly have her as President!
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Sorry about wandering off like that. I forgot I was trying to find out if Ms Palin ate the result of the no doubt exciting and exhilarating chase.
And now I can't remember why I was trying to find out. I must have had some point in mind originally. I hope it's not short-term memory loss.
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106, David de Jong.
Annie Oakley! That's wonderful! I hope you don't mind if I use it. In exchange you can have my "meese."
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#90. oldnat: "Your definition of a "city" is an antiquated UK (European?) one. It never applied in the New World."
But at least the UK does not classify villages or hamlets as "towns"; my guess is that Wasilla would be considered a village by European - and UK - standards.
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#100. Ptrsln: "89. This page you linked to has to be a joke."
Not so. Dick Morris writes for a conservative web site and had there been the chance of showing better numbers for the Republican ticket, he would have done so. Even he says "it's not pretty" for them and he's usually on-the-mark.
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111. allmymarbles
Not at all, and I'm honoured by your reciprocal offer. Be assured I will treat it with respect!
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112
I think at 7,000 we could probably just about allow it 'town', but it does call itself a city.
City mayor to governor to Vice President sounded like a fair enough progression when I first heard it, but now . . .
I see I'm in danger of falling into the 'experience' fallacy. It's policies, ability and articulacy that matter. . .Isn't it?
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This analysis of Mrs Palin's style and appeal is worth a read; whether she can pull it off in a debate remains to be seen, but she does have personality on her side - one which is attractive to a great many voters, and not only women.
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114, David de jong.
I already used Annie Oakley on a CBS blog. If the name is used often enough it will be picked up by others. I am serious. I have followed the spread of catch words and phrases before and have even initiated them myself.
Use it whenever you get a chance. It is a winner and it won't help Palin or McCain.
Goodnight. It's late. And thank you.
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Allmymarbles at 81:
Palin is taking a cram course and memorizing facts. This is hardly the same as having a true understanding. Cut off from the mainstream as she has been, she has no experience and no intuitive understanding of what she is talking about. The nuances and subtleties are not the sort of thing that you learn by rote.
She is the governor of Alaska, a backwater state. No one would have ever voted for such an untutored and inexperienced person in Indiana, Idaho, or North Dakota, let alone California, New York, or Florida."
She seemed to me to understand what shes saying just fine. Having a good memory is an excellent start, I also think she is a quick study.
Reagan was a "broad brush" politician too, no intellectual. He did a fairly good job in my opinion.
I'd rather have an honest person with guts and the ability to distil down a briefing to its most important core elements.
Biden's answer to Iraq was to partition in into its ethnic components, which given Iraq's preditory and anti-democratic regional neighbors is INSANE.
If Obama had been president in 2006, the US would allready have been defeated in Iraq, and under massive pressure in Afghanistan.
If thats "experience" you can keep it. Someone patriotic and honest with good advisors can do much better than that.
In a worst case scenario, with Mccain ill early in his first term, Palin will be able to draw on John Mccain's team of advisors.
Thats easily safer than president Obama, from my point of view. I also don't completely trust lawyers, especially young over confident ones. He actually thinks the US can survive long term with a corporation tax of 33%!! Suicide.
The American people however, I sense, are fooled by surface charm. Mccain is going to end up needing California in his electoral colledge total, that is too tall an order I think.
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I think Biden is in an unenviable position. As Palin, judging by her interview with Couric, is expected to 'lose' the debate. Biden will be damned if he does 'win' and damned if he 'loses'. Unless he wins convincingly of course, which in the modern era I think is unlikely.
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Considering the fine humane animal sentiment expressed above, would American and European commentators here, be prepared to express their opinions about Mrs Blairs' thoughts about her husband being regarded as a Churchill! ?
British bulldog or poodle.?
What place in history will his legacy be remembered, and what future hope for the middle east with Blair as peacemaker?.
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There is such a wide gap between the two. The time for Sarah Palin to catch-up is fast dwindling. She needs a brain-wave to upset Joe Biden's apple-cart of experience and good common-sense. But still Biden needs to be wary! Palin has a team of spin-doctors who could give her a crash course on the art of spin! But in the natural course Biden should come out smelling of roses. America needs proven experience in these times of doom and gloom.
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@ All my marbles (#97)
Sure, columnists like to make fun but Biden talking about FDR appearing on TV in 1929 etc is a bit weird you gotta admit. In any case, I think we need somebody more relaxed in the WH than Cheney
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# 113 - thanks David for that piece on the Palin enigma. This debate is going to be fascinating and I think that it will be parsed and deconstructed for ever more by political students.
She is certainly good at speaking to a teleprompter but what we do not yet know is how her spontaneous reactions will be. Patchy evidence from interviews so far.
And Joe is not without his folksy side which he had to suppress in the Dem primaries. For heavens sake, he even had a crying jag on the campaign trail recently and the audience loved him for it!
He has the benefit of a deep base of knowledge which Palin patently does not. It remains to be seen if her brain is sufficiently organised to cope with all aspects of presidential politics over a 90 minute stretch.
For all her obviously attractive features, she does have an air of triumphalism and aggression which might eventually be as much of a downer for her as HRC's wonkiness was for her.
She has to tread a very fine line between showing confidence and the over-confidence which took her to the place she is in now. She's going to need all the lipstick in the world to help her steer her way through all the glaring anomalies.
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Small factual corrections.
Birmingham has 3 cathedrals, one of them CofE. That means a CofE bishop since the 'cathedra' is the bishop's chair - it is Latin for chair. I believe Royal Charters tend to go to older towns with bishops but that's just gagging to be contradicted.
SamTyler1969 #85: From the previous thread, Napoleon lost at least two major battles - Leipzig and Waterloo
Joe Biden and Sarah Palin ? Who knows. A lot may turn on a little but isn't that the story of the average election ?
Much talk of knowledge and experience but character and judgment matter more. It is that which most people vote for.
Which current politician has experience of the current financial crisis ? They still have to handle it.
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# 120 Markingtime
I am afraid that more or less anything that Cherie Blair comes out with is regarded as a joke in the UK. Most people feel that her husband's reputation would be better served if she would just shut up.
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I don't understand why there is the need to make comments suggesting others don't make comments.
In this case MarcusAureliusII.
He has the same right to his opinion as all of us.
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wanderingangus # 125
But ones "reputation" can be perceived as good or bad. Northern Ireland good? Going in with the sexed up reports about Iraq bad?
You are obviously advocating the neutered bulldog comparisons that do the rounds.
Or was he more of a "Sooty" [ Glove puppet of old UK kids television for USA readers who feel I am making an uncalled for remark].
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Justin I hope you weren't slagging off the merit of a journalism degree. I’ll admit Palin is not a shining example of the field, but for every graduate who ends up a Palin, there’s another 10 potential Justin Webbs to take her place.
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"America needs proven experience in these times of doom and gloom."
And instead they have Obama who hasn't done anything in the Senate except vote "present". What "proven experience" has Obama got ??
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#5 Mickburke - I think your spelling in that post is perfect!
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~127 Markingtime
I believe that the jury is still out on Tony Blair's reputation (or 'legacy') as he would have it.
He certainly seems to believe that his greatest achievement was bringing peace to Northern Ireland and people acknowledge that it was a skilled settlement, bringing great benefit. But there is no doubt that equally he was brought very low by Iraq and the perception of his relationship with George W. Bush.
He actually achieved a lot in office but probably now wishes that he had done more - which may be the reason for him taking on the high profile role in the Middle East. He will probably continue in public life in one way or another for years yet (as did Churchill) so it is too soon to make the comparison with Winston in any meaningful way.
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Remember, the US system put Bush nto office twice!
One reason: "He's the kinda guy I can have a beer with".
Suppose Palin simply recites the Ten Commandments- how many votes would that change?
_________________________
The continuation of McCain/Palin into office will mean cold war and possibly hot war. Vast defense expenditures and no infra-structure or social appropriations.
The "debate" is entertainment.
If there are any talented BBC personnel in the USA, the issues to address are:
(1) what specific ways can be used to avoid a repeat of the events leading to the 1932 depression?
(2) Note that Obama has proposed increasing the FDIC bank deposit insurance to $250,000- a very sound step!
(3) What other steps can be taken?
_______________________
SUCH are the questions to address. Talking about Palin vs. Bidden belongs in the Sports/Entertainment sections.
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#117 Can someone explain the Annie Oakley comparison to me? A quick search came up with this sharp shooter?
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For Mintsorcerer,
Linking tutorial
All others, sorry for being repetitive
;-)
ed
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Markingtime ~
Just as an aside, I would add that I do not believe that enough credit is paid to Bertie Aherne, then Prime Minister of Ireland, for his role in the NI peace settlement.
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Ms Marbles,
But the first thing she did was to hire an administrator.;-)
ed
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Justin,
There's no need to even analyse tomorrow's debate. All Joe Biden has to do is relax and be himself and his innate knowledge and ability will allow him to win this debate.
Many people seem to think that he's going to bully Palin into submission on the various issues, but I don't think he will and I don't think he needs to, because he has already won half the race just through his extensive experience.
All that aside, I seriously cannot give credence to a VP candidate (Palin) who only acquired a passport a year ago. She's absolutely woeful.
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It seems to me that the McCain campaign (whether intentionally or not) have managed to lower the expectations of Mrs. Palin to such an extent that it will be extremely difficult for her to "lose" the debate in any meaningful sense.
Her core constituency (the Republican base) are going to support her in spite of what she says and appear to care not a jot that she has barely thought about the world beyond the borders of Alaska. She really only needs to turn up and demonstrate that she is "one of them." She is not there to win over Independents (that's McCain's job).
Surely the only person seriously at risk in the debate is Biden. Expectations are that he should not only win, but that he should do so spectacularly, yet there is a real chance that he could alienate any number of Obama's potential supporters (Clintonistas, the Liberal Intelligensia and minorities to name but a few) with an ill advised remark. It's not as if he doesn't have form in that regard.....
Jay, London
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Ex,
Give her a gold star! If terrain is so important a factor (which I agree) why are we taunting Iran? Because we want to draw her out of her formidable terrain? It would certain folly to attempt an invasion when we can't even manage the flat bits in Iraq or the wee bits of mountain in Afghanistan/Waziristan. Have a look at Iran on GiggleEarth...Salaam, etc.
ed
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Markingtime ~
A further aside. For delicate feline reasons, the word "neutering" is usually avoided in the Wandering Angus household.
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Some excellent articles very well written here. Good to get some balance. Basically the VP choice is between a liar and an idiot. But they've both got a good smile so it's OK. Yey...
Personally I'd still take Biden over Palin any day, if for no other reason than he's less likely to be given the job of president if his candidate wins due to Obama's age. That and Sarah Palin reminds me, not so much of Reagan as suggested in this blog, or a pitbull with lipstick as suggested by the lady herself, but George W Bush with lipstick due to their politics and respective intellects. Not only is this scary as hell that she might be President but you kind of think old Georgy might have tried lipstick on in front of a mirror at home already so she doesn't even represent change...
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#132 Xie_Ming
In case nobody else mentioned it - the FDIC change to $250,000 is among the things the Senate will be voting on tonight.
It appears to have been suggested by John McCain and Barack Obama
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When I wrote Palin is beginning to look like a bad choice what I should have said is that while I had concerns about her stance on the issues and lack of experience I was willing to give her a chance to show that she understood the challenges facing America in foreign affairs. My thinking was that many people while not armed with a phd in political science are aware of the issues and can argue their view on them in a coherent fashion. So I was willing to give her a chance to show that she has a command of the kind of issues facing the next adminisration. What I have seen in her interviews has reminded me of the way in which George Bush operated. This revelling in ignorance is no way for a president to act.
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I look forward to the Biden/ Palin big fight, but could you please use your undoubted influence with the BBC World Service producers to keep the inter-round summaries to a minimum. Alan Little did a good job as a latter day W Barrington-Dalby during the McCain/ Obama heavy weight contest, but we did miss a lot of the action. Similarly, do we need the news broadcast every half hour when this is the news?
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Vivaelcid said @ 62:
"The difference being. of course, is that the MSM devoured every tiny little "gaffe" Palin uttered but ignored all Obama's many obvious ones ("57 States", "breatherlysers for kids" "calling for the UN Security Council to denounce Russia" - when Russia is a member of Council and can veto any such calls, etc etc)."
So Obama (and Bidden) has made gaffes over a period of time whilst expressing a coherent vision for his country which has inspired many, and while consistently demonstrating a clear grasp and understanding of national and world issues....that is vastly different from Palins situation. With her the gaffes are all there is to go on at the moment. Maybe that can change, but I'm not holding my breath.
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I think the reason why Mahmoud Ahmedinejad doesn't like the west is because they can't pronounce his name properly. Come on, Has anybody heard the Iranian President referred by his name? We need people who are more skilled at linguistics than pit bulls with lipsticks and "That guy you can have a beer with"
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Surely the inevitable is that it will be another stale, opinionless debate, just like last week's? Palin will have been meticulously prep'd and will have memorised scripted answers, just like Obama and Mccain.
Also, Justin, I strongly recommend you check out the Daily Show from yesterday (Tues. 30th) on Comedy Central's website if you haven't already - yet again, Jon Stewart is the only media guy able to effectively and honestly attack those involved in the economic mess. Can we underestimate his importance?
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And I agree to an extent with ifonlyitwerebartlet, that Biden could be the big loser if he doesn't live up to expectations.
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On Cities, it's all in self-perception. I live near Palnackie (Pop ~300), but the local schoolchildren have a song,
On locality and neighbourhoodAnd, on the matter of Meese, sometime ago, I was walking on a forest dirt road in Maine when I heard a slight sound behind me. I turned around to find myself looking up at a moose's nose (I'm six foot five, or was at the time)! He was HUGE! I was SCARED! All I could do was feign disinterest, turn around and keep walking, and after a few paces he trotted off the road and went to visit a cow & calf (meese).
Whew!
ed
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Just a thought. I am beginning to have nightmares that Sarah Palin might greet Joe Biden with a big kiss - and that he has to go through the whole 90 minutes with a great splodge of lipstick on his cheek.
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# 142
That's good.
Do we know what ELSE is being proposed?
Do our journalistic lightweights prefer to deal in personalities?
Our posters continue to be preoccupied with trivia!
I give up!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What interests me is not how Sarah Palin will perform during the debate, but what would McCain do if she stumbles and makes a couple of major gaffes. Will he gently pushed her aside and replace her with a well known economic guru to boost his chances in November, or will he show loyalty and go down with the ship with her as his first mate?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 149
If we're going to go all lyrical to take our minds off this pesky debate, can I quote my favourite Paul Theroux line - which comes to mind every time we discuss meese.
Musing over the glamorous beauty of the yaks in Mongolia (long eyelashes, liquid brown eyes, fabulous fur coats etc) he wrote that they "look like a cow on its way to the opera"
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Gus (150), Arrrrghhhh! Yukkk! Thanks a LOT!
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Vivaelcid said @ 62:
"The difference being. of course, is that the MSM devoured every tiny little "gaffe" Palin uttered but ignored all Obama's many obvious ones ("57 States", "breatherlysers for kids" "calling for the UN Security Council to denounce Russia" - when Russia is a member of Council and can veto any such calls, etc etc)."
You forgot to mention McCain's gaffes, such as confusing the Sunnis and Shias, the Iraq/Afghanistan border geographical restructuring, the real estate incident, shoot the old dude didn't even know what Viagra is!
I agree that all candidates make mistakes during their campaigns, and to a degree those mistakes are understandable given the pressure they are under and the frantic pace of presidential campaigns, the problem is that most of Palin's statements are either wrong or are endorsements of Obama's policies. Hopefully her mentor has a sense of humor.
Nice monicker BTW!
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The Tongue Jut
Fancy a game of poker?
;-p
ed
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Why Sarah Palin Is A Better Debater Than You Think
VideoIt's gonna be entertaining, any way it goes. Hope I can stay awake.
;-P
ed
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Xie Ming
If you want to keep up with what is being proposed can I recommend that you visit MSNBC. There are parallel interviews with Obama and McCain on the economy.
They are a bit long (don't go there, Ed !) but encapusale most everything you need to know about our two presidential candidates
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Slow Learner As indicated by class rank?
[no quotation 'cause of moderation, but just follow the link]
Personally, I reckon McDramaQueen's Annapolis class rank (894/899) overstates his intelligence and ability to learn...
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#59
Marby,
Yes. Boom chicca wah wah!
Guns,
Think of it more as your taste becoming more refined.
Mine, not so much.
Sexy Sam
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#151 Xie_Ming
It is described here but in case you cannot get there:
The last issue seems to have been a problem for some time. I believe it affects the rate of tax below which deductibles are allowed and it has gathered in too many people. I think it was originally intended only for the fairly wealthy.
That last provision will reduce the tax take. Interesting direction to take.
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Mr Moderator.
You have an extremely dirty mind.
A neutered cat or "pussy" or feline is missing the best parts.
wanderingangus.
Agree with you wholeheartedly about the lack of recognition for Bertie Ahern
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Xie & all,
A good place to start for info on the economy, and of course, on the bailout proposals and modifications thereof...
The Wall Street Journal. Of course, y'all know it's now a "Murdoch rag", but it's full of DATA.
Peace ()
ed
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And, a special page on "The Wall Street Crisis"
Wooooo!
ed
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24. phatGator:
"For those of you impressed with Joe Biden, please remember that over 35 MILLION Democrat voters said he was not fit to be president. Only 5844 thought he was. Half of those votes came from his home state, where he still only received 3% of the vote."
Democrats love him as long as they don't have to vote for him. They just don't want to waste a vote on him.
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#159 Ed Iglehart
In the article that links to links to Andrew Halcro says:
Horrifying that that sort of thing should have an effect on voters.
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# 159
She sure is bossy !
It does occur to me, however, that she is well within her comfort zone talking about Alaska. It all goes back to this business of over-confidence If she leaps in and declares that she's going to sort all the baddies out (and both she and McCain have a manichaean view of the world) an awful lot of knowledgeable people are going to run for cover.
Joe Biden is very good at explaining complexities - if he is allowed to get a word in edgeways.
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29. canamgirl:
"No self-respecting woman can stand Sarah Palin"
This is not true. You don't speak for all women.
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34. kecsmar:
"Just saw an interview on TV by a reporter asking a Democratic congresswoman that her lack of support for the "bailoutbill" is causing major problems and will she accept responsibility for it.....blah blah blah."
This falls very neatly into the democrats' fallback position that it's the rich who create every problem.
No responsibility for their own behavior. No responsibility for the middle class who recklessly borrowed money.
Always the victim, never responsible. Sickening.
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75. exserviceman:
"What exactly is the problem everyone is suposed to be seeing?"
It's what we're not supposed to be seeing. She brings lack of experience to the forefront, which is a very touchy topic. She needs to be destroyed for that.
Haven't you noticed how, now, the president doesn't even need to have any experience at all? None.
Soon, we'll be hearing how it's really a benefit he was not in the US Senate for long, never managed anything and tried and failed at community improvement. Purity, at its best.
If Palin is the Rorschach test for democratic anger, Obama's the white screen upon which they projects their needs.
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On "Failed philosophies"
Prisoners of war;-(
ed
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There was a report on a morning talk show that the moderator who works for NPR has an Obama book coming out.
I've never heard of her, but it leaves the impression of bias.
It could be worse you could have Chris Mathews as you did during the primaries.
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I just would like to confirm that my comments about bossy women who see the world in manichaean terms was posted before Andrea in NY rejoined the debate
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Its all too surreal. McCain has never managed anything in his life except to get shot down and get what appears to me to have been a case of Hanoi Hilton Stockholm Syndrome. Who knows what pyschological, let alone physical, demons are lurking within. He backed George Bush to the hilt. He can't manage a decent campaign apart from a few cynical wacko stunts like Palin. Those clowns in the White House will be far worse than any financial meltdown let alone Reagan and GW.
At `worst' Obama/Biden will be typical semi-embarrassing politician lawyer types but at least their campaign has acheived something.. a historical poll lead for an otherwise non-conforming (see `McCain') candidate with a middle name of Hussain. And some glimmer of hope. This will be read as `Kool Aid' by hick-reps, but they have no alternative apart from a loaded gun.
There's nothing to even debate about in my opinion. Its just a side-show. Let the American people vote and get what they deserve! (err..yikes)
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113. David_Cunard:
"Not so. Dick Morris writes for a conservative web site and had there been the chance of showing better numbers for the Republican ticket, he would have done so. Even he says "it's not pretty" for them and he's usually on-the-mark."
Dick Morris has a keen sense of politics and knows the democrats well, especially the Clintons, but he has a spotty track record in predictions.
I can still remember him panicking about Kerry's coming on strong or something like that.
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113. David_Cunard:
If you want to read a Republican who knows what's going on and has an uncanny ability to decipher political behavior, try Rove. The guy is very, very smart.
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#24 phatGator:
For those of you impressed with Joe Biden, please remember that over 35 MILLION Democrat voters said he was not fit to be president.
That's untrue. Primary voters said they preferred other people, not that they thought any of the several candidates running was unqualified.
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barack obama is a nice change for americans to make
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157. DominickVila:
"You forgot to mention McCain's gaffes, such as confusing the Sunnis and Shias, the Iraq/Afghanistan border geographical restructuring, the real estate incident, shoot the old dude didn't even know what Viagra is!"
At least McCain has been to those borders and met with the Iraqis many times. You really can't believe that he doesn't know this area well?
As for Viagra, well, we'll leave that one to you.
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168. chill0:
"#159 Ed Iglehart
In the article that links to links to Andrew Halcro says:
'And when she does answer the actual question asked, she has a canny ability to connect with the audience on a personal level.'
Horrifying that that sort of thing should have an effect on voters."
She is competing with the media, and they don't like it one bit. It's their job to control the message, and she keeps interfering with their own message.
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Maybe Palin needs some coaching from Michelle Malkin...
:-)
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I also noted in Gov. Palin's interview with Charles Gibson that she appears to have gone to the "W School of Elocution" with the inexecrable pronunciation: "nucular".
For those of us who live in the US, especially in the North East, there is also the apparent anomaly to those who live in Europe that a Town can be bigger than a city. The Town tends to be the larger administrative entity with the city contained therein.
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On the siren songs from the "revolving door" I repeat: "Act in haste and repent at leisure."
The "crisis" is like the eponymous stage in a fever. It will pass, but ill-advised medication is likely to delay any recovery.
Doctor Ed
"Feed a cold, but starve a fever," I believe is the longstanding rule.
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Palin will take a good deal of limelight in the debate but her lack of substance will come through too and that will hurt her. She's been very unlucky to have popped up at a time when the pockets of people are being touched. No one listens more intently and wants guidance than when he's getting poorer.
In the end she'll just be enjoyed by viewers like a comedian would be... 20 minutes of lightheartedness and fun but then back to the business of saving my standard of living. And when they come back to the serious world of reality it will be the sobriety of Biden that will have the final say.
And thank god for that!!!
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Andrea,
Indeed, and he's got Obama winning....;-)
ed
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If sp keeps to her campaign scripted preparations she shuold do OK,(except for that annoying screechy voice). If she tries or gets forced into expressing her thoughts she´s doomed. But all considered most semi-intelligent peoples expectations for her are so low that it really will be hard for her to screw up completely. I don't envy Biden's task.
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Ref 181
"At least McCain has been to those borders and met with the Iraqis many times. You really can't believe that he doesn't know this area well?"
It doesn't look like he learned much from those visits. So much for experience.
There is a difference between not needing placebos, and not knowing what they are.
Senility is not an attribute we need in the White House.
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Obama's ahead in three key battleground states. Pennsylvania is supportive of Biden as well with many working class Catholics.
Battleground polls
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He's losing it!
Poor old duffer...;-)
ed
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# 187
Glad that our Border Chieftain took on the Karl Rove issue.
"Karl Rove is very, very smart" is not really a phrase that one sees too often nowadays.
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testing
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113. "Dick Morris writes for a conservative web site and had there been the chance of showing better numbers for the Republican ticket, he would have done so."
I don't care if he works for the Fascist Review Online, his numbers do not correspond to reality and are strongly skewed toward Obama. Feel free to check the polls yourself if you don't believe me (on the right, under 'poll details'). Polls taken over the last week are highlighted in yellow. They all, and I do mean ALL, confirm what I said in my original post: AK, AZ and TN are completely safe republican seats and FL is a tossup state. Morris is also dead wrong about Louisiana, and disagrees with the polls, although less forcefully, in WV, IN, and NV. Oh, and this is a liberal site, not that it matters. The poll data comes from across the board, from liberal, conservative and independent pollsters, and they all agree.
Simply because a pollster says what you want him to say does not make him right. Dick Morris does not do a better job than the combined efforts of ARG, PPP, Rassmussen, Mason-Dixon, SurveyUSA, Zogby and every other major polling company in the country.
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Karl Rove's analysis
More
;-)
ed
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# 163 #165
It would appear, then, that the Senate version is also inadequate and should be turned down.
Of the three propositions, only the first makes economic ( and non-ideological)sense.
Under no circumstances would I rely on the Wall Street Journal- I had (vainly) hoped that the BBC might have the talent and diligence to tablulate what is being proposed.
If I thought that anyone would carry it further, it might be worthwhile to itemize the steps used to repair the 1929-1932 situation.
[Similar improvements might be applied now].
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Meanwhile,...
;-P
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15. At 00:01am on 01 Oct 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
#5. MICKBURKE: "Palin is beginning to look like a bad choice."
beginning?? It was pretty obvious from the git-go!
------------------------
lol dc
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Ref 89
Dick Morris has finally gone bonkers! How can Arkansas possibly be safe Obama!
He may win Virginia, North Carolina, Florida and Ohio. Iowa, New Mexico and Colorado look good for him as well. That would constitute a landslide.
By the way, I really like the new Obama healthcare ad.
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Gus, surely ye ken fine the difference 'tween Bonnie Gallowa an' the Borders...
From the Burns UnitSlainte!
ed
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Hoping Palin chokes....if she don't it's not likely any but her base will be influenced by a reasonable performance...definitely not enough to overcome her gaffes, displays of ignorance, and ethical inquiries at home
Hoping Biden maintains ... she might manage to piss him off and if she insults him I hope he gives it back double
Reagan's debate performances were disgusting, the man was nothing more than a front-man puppet mouthing words - very similar to Palin
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Xie,
For data, it is "the paper of record". For editorial, as with any source, including the BBC, one must exercise one's own critical intelligence. The WSJ has opinion pieces from a broad spectrum of viewpoints.For Market Data, it is unsurpassed. The Financial Times (London) is also quite good.
;-)
ed
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The Senate bail-out package would raise the FDIC insurance cap to $250,000 for each depositor (good) and give two tax breaks to the wealthier voters (not warranted).
In the previous Depression, easing monetary rates would have made more money available. (Note that this did not work in Japan, even with a near-zero funds rate).
If the Federal Reserve does not feel that it can loan money to a bank- then that bank HAS already failed.
Ideologically, legislators are talking about “keep your profits, the tax payers will absorb your losses”. The public is being told that this is “capitalism” – [absent the Protestant Ethic].
In the USA, some have become immensely rich, while most have stagnated or regressed. Absurd credit masked this- but the situation is now unmasked.
Broad employment and broad demand can permit economic growth and expansion.
Hand-outs to investment banks and “insurance” companies only ease the fall, they do nothing to prevent it.
The time has come to spend on infra-structure, not on war. Remember the CCC and the WPA? We need an environment industry and bridges, not more military-industrial complex.
The jobs lost to globalization will not [and should not] come back. We need to create jobs based on an educated workforce using tools of high capital [subsidized?] cost.
There was a Homeowners Loan Association- what is the status of this today?
What happened to the Farm Credit Administration?
Something that learned economists can perhaps explain- every soldier and government desk job is counted in that measure called “Gross National Product”.
What measures what is REALLY produced? What does it take for household formation? How can the government aid such employment and demand?
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fraidycat, does it still get to you that Reagan blew away the USSR by bankrupting them with the nuclear arms race spendfest? Boy didn't that one get them good? They fell for it like a ton of bricks.
I just wonder how many zingers the Republican tutors will put in Palin's quiver of verbal arrows. Palin inexperienced? Of the four years Obama was a United States Senator, he spent almost as much time campaigning to become President as he did doing his job as a Senator...or whatever it was that he was doing during that time. As far as I can tell, he never actually did one thing of real value for this country in his entire life. I don't expect him to start now if he gets elected.
Biden's got some real problems. If he comes on too strong, he'll look like he's bullying her, a fatal blunder in his position in the American ethos. If he comes on too weak, he'll look incompetent, indecisive. He strikes me as a smart ass who shoots his mouth off at the least provocation and later looks like a fool. Senator, you voted for the invasion of Iraq. Were you wrong then or are you wrong now? Senator, you took your eye off the ball when the current financial and economic crisis was building. You were in the United States Senate every minute from the time the regulations that had been in place since the aftermath of the great depression were dismantled. Why should anyone believe you have the foresight or knowledge to fix the problem you completely missed these last 20 years? I'm sure Palin will have far better ammo than that. A femme fatale?
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I think that "I" would like to see a person who give council to the president. Act of behalf of that office in all the affairs of state. And yes should it come to the worst...be able to stand in.
Sarah Palin and Joe Biden are the options. No one else is in the running. Personally BEFORE the debate has started I don't see Sarah Palin as the correct person for the job, but that Joe Biden could be ok.
If Joe Biden is to win the debate - he must show us that there is no other choice. He must ensure that the contest is fought solely on those grounds and not on any personality contest....in which case he would surely lose.
But of course the real question is what does middle America want? I suspect it is not a GWB in a dress (likeable but not intellectually curious...). To my mind Sarah Palin is too close to that model and not a Hillary Clinton!
It will be an interesting debate probably not in the actual content, just in terms of the result.
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I've down to #107, and the concesus is that Palin left to her own abilities will fail.
Must say I agree.
The other main point being made is 'what if' McCain should die. OMG is a fair sumerization to this,.. and I thought, OMG what if Obama should die? Biden would be President,.. the laughing stock of England.
Imagine the response to this gaffe; Biden called the leader of Pakistan a jew. Or addressing the UN and confusing Korea with Vietnam, or Iran with Sudan.
Either way, I hope don't need the Vice Presidents in that manner, just at funerals and tie breaking the congress(?)
I'm back to reading from 107
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#33
Hi, MarcusAurelius!
I agree with the main drift of your comment,
and will not pass judgement on the outcome
of the VP debate until it is over. With the likes of Palin who sprang such a surprisingly
impressive performance at the Republican Convention, you never can tell.
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I can't really see that happening - why? Because from what I've seen of Palin she seems pretty inept on both the economy and foreign policy. I don't think differences in style will overshadow that. Knowledge shines through.
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Xie,
GNP counts ALL economic activity as positive, thus a train wreck and all the resulting repair work and hospital work adds to GNP. The same can be said of a superhighway pile-up or a Tsunami - all good for The Economy (note capitalisation as appropriate to a Diety);-)
ed
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# 200
Grannie was a Douglas, so Caesar to you !
It's true, they need na starve nor sweat,
Thro' winter's cauld, or simmer's heat;
They've nae sair wark to craze their banes,
An' fill auld age wi' grips an' granes;
But human bodies are sic fools,
For a' their colleges an' schools,
That when nae real ills perplex them,
They make enow themselves to vex them;
An' aye the less they hae to sturt them,
In like proportion, less will hurt them.
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Frightful to think that Moosemom could be a heartbeat away from the presidency .
My county, ( DuPage )in Illinois has more people in it than the total population of Alaska !
Alaska is on the fringe of the american experience
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One way for Biden to pin Palin down on details, while remaining charming and affable himself, is to let the debate moderator do the needful. Instead of general questions, detailed questions using much in-the-know jargon designed to maximise the chances of hitting jargon Palin is not familiar with; questions on Biden-friendly topics (what's the betting we have more foreign policy questions in the "general issues" VP debate than we had in the so-called "foreign affairs" presidential debate last week? And zero questions on energy policy, which Palin knows something about); and then follow up questions from the moderator insisting that Palin be more precise, and that she should list three specific court judgements supporting her opinion on each point.
To do that of course you do need a debate moderator who is totally in the tank for Obama-Biden, and who actually has a book coming out in January about how Obama represents a wonderful new breed of dazzling and successful African-American politicians - in short a moderator whose book sales will benefit hugely from an Obama win.
But where could such a moderator be found at such short notifce ?
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117. allmymarbles
Annie Oakley isn't negative, unless being fair, honest (striaght shooter) and talented and tough enough to survive a very rough west is a trait you find,...'wrong'.
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Where's a third party candidate to waste votes on when you need one?
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I'm thinking that many of the above comments regarding "Debate Expectations" are the result of concerns that more than a few voters that will be duped by posturing. If it is any comfort, other than post-event bounce VP debates are not considered game-changers.
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Come on poeple! What on earth are they thinking? Putting a 'soccer mom' in as VP is a farce to say the least! Think back four years ago when Kerry was running against Bush. He was shot down because of his views on gay unions. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I would rather have allowed gay or same sex unions than spend billions of dollars every month fighting a war that should have been over about six and a half years ago! Point being, McCain is all about war and Palin has no concept. This debate should be aired on cable tv's Comedy Central! Palin is at the beggining of her political learning curve. Can America afford to make such a grave mistake and even risk having someone with her political savvy, come even close to running the 'most powerful' country in the world? I shudder to think of what will happen if McCain keels over.
I know that I will be glued to my flat screen TV (bought on credit) watching the debate at my house (almost in foreclosure) with a large box of tissues. They will be used to laugh at her responses and probably the remaining tissues used to wipe my tears when the realization sets in that this is what we have to look forward to at the helm of the 'most powerful' country in the world. I can see a storm 'a' brewing. America will become and be considered a 'third world' country if the American public doesn't wake up, turn off Nascar and take that beer can away from thier mouths and speak up for thier country and for what is just!
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117. allmymarbles
Annie Oakley isn't negative, unless being fair, honest (striaght shooter) and talented and tough enough to survive a very rough west is a trait you find,...'wrong'.
What do these these three men have in common besides being 'part and parcel' of the financial meltdown?
*Jim Johnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO.
*Tim Howard - Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae.
*Franklin Raines- Was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae.
They are on Barry Obamas Staff..... Everytime have think this one is better,..
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#199. cyrilcroydon: "Dick Morris has finally gone bonkers! How can Arkansas possibly be safe Obama!"
Probably because it former Governor became President - twice.
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# 209
Was very good!
We need a different economic model.
How will will get one?
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175. wanderingangus:
"I just would like to confirm that my comments about bossy women who see the world in manichaean terms was posted before Andrea in NY rejoined the debate"
Oh, did I interrupt your chitchat? Sorry.
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#59, Ms. Marbles, my experience is that once women
reach a certain stage of maturity, they don't
need any pills.
Sam, sometimes my tastes are refined,
and sometimes not. Fortunately, I have
the freedom to choose.
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Let's buy a few protesters, shall we?
Frat guys hate it when you call them that
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BeebLeeMoore,
Surprise, surprise!You sly thing!
;-0
ed
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#206, DT,we should just eliminate the job
of VP and admit that we are in a terrible
mess if the Pres goes down.
But, the next in line is the Speaker of the
House. Can you see Pelosi as our
Fearless Leader?
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Can anyone find some useful suggestions here? [The Congressmen need some ideas]
Broad employment and broad demand can permit economic growth and expansion.
Hand-outs to investment banks and “insurance” companies only ease the fall, they do nothing to prevent it.
The time has come to spend on infra-structure, not on war. Remember the CCC and the WPA? We need an environment industry and bridges, not more military-industrial complex.
The jobs lost to globalization will not [and should not] come back. We need to create jobs based on an educated workforce using tools of high capital [subsidized?] cost.
There was a Homeowners Loan Association- what is the status of this today?
What happened to the Farm Credit Administration?
What measures what is REALLY produced? What does it take for household formation? How can the government aid such employment and demand?
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187. Ed Iglehart:
'"try Rove. The guy is very, very smart."
Indeed, and he's got Obama winning....'
So did most intelligent people :-)
until this mortgage debacle, which is the only reason why Obama's numbers have moved.
Who would have thought it would take a financial castastrophy to help Obama in the polls? Hey, whatever works.
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189. DominickVila:
"Ref 181
"At least McCain has been to those borders and met with the Iraqis many times. You really can't believe that he doesn't know this area well?"
It doesn't look like he learned much from those visits. So much for experience."
What specifically did he learn that was not valuable?
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204. MarcusAureliusII:
"Of the four years Obama was a United States Senator, he spent almost as much time campaigning to become President as he did doing his job as a Senator...or whatever it was that he was doing during that time."
Maybe that explains why his campaign is often mentioned as an example of his "experience".
He has no record worth mentioning. Even his community work cannot be used on his resume, hence its disappearance from his record.
Experience only matters when it comes to Biden -- and Palin, when it really, really matters.
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"Its all too surreal. McCain has never managed anything in his life except to get shot down and get what appears to me to have been a case of Hanoi Hilton Stockholm Syndrome. Who knows what pyschological, let alone physical, demons are lurking within. He backed George Bush to the hilt. He can't manage a decent campaign apart from a few cynical wacko stunts like Palin. Those clowns in the White House will be far worse than any financial meltdown let alone Reagan and GW."
Yeah, stay classy Democrats. Is this the best level of debate you can manage? Ridiculing a guy who bravely served his country , had his shoulders and arms repeatedly broken and his teeth knocked out during five hellish years of captivity but who still returned to duty when he was released from being a POW.
It was also McCain in 2006 that tried to regulate the doomed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And what did Obama do about Freddie and Fannie - he took hundreds of thousands of dollars from them and voted to keep them going.
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Xie,
For startersPeace to all
ed
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One of the interesting things about US election is how the candidates and the journalists manage to get through it would mentioning politics.
The No 1 subject of interest to the US public is health care - why is it both you and Matt Frei, and everyone in the US politics and journalism go out of their way to hide the fact that the British NHS could provide universal health care for Americans, remove the need for private insurance, reduce taxes - and turn in better results.
It should be the top debate in US politcs - care to enlighten us we get the constant trivia about Biden and Palin and absolutely no discussion of the issues?
Why is that?
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Re:#229. Last sentence. And McCain's campaign manager was on Freddie Mac's payroll through August.
Freddie Mac and the McCain campaign
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Ref 227
"What specifically did he learn that was not valuable?"
How can I give you specifics when it is evident he knows nothing about other cultures, world geography, or history?
Three or four day junkets or photo ops in faraway lands, when the visitors spend most of their time in secluded and "safe" locations and only venture out when surrounded by hundreds of soldiers or mercenaries is hardly worth mentioning as an example of knowledge of other cultures or the world.
You must spend years in a foreign country, living among the indigenous population, sleeping in their homes, eating their food, listening to their music, wearing their attire and simply being one of them to be able to say that you understand how they feel, what they like or dislike, and what their aspirations are with any amount of credibility.
The trips our politicians make overseas are as meaningless as their visits to supermarkets at home when they pretend they understand mainstream America.
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Eutectics (#231), where did you get the idea that Health Care is the leading subject of interest to US voters? Not in these polls, it isn't:
http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm
Perhaps it's just your leading subject of interest.
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GnA OMG Pelosi!! Compared to her screech, Palins a violin played well.
229. vivaelcid
As to being Senator, management of a state office is needed experience. Having requested from, written to and observed the Senate of Texas, there is alot of management going on. That said, McCain, Obama and Biden have the management experience to run this country.
Now, the direction we wish to travel is at hand. Oddly enough, oher than his pick of a "republican conservative", McCain and Obama only differ in how far left we go. Making Sarah Palin, an anchor to the right for McCain, hopefully holding his drift and leanings to the left in check, maintaining a moderate stance as President.
The Obama and Biden ticket will with out a doubt, drift much farther left than the campaign stance.
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#229. vivaelcid: "a guy who bravely served his country, had his shoulders and arms repeatedly broken and his teeth knocked out during five hellish years of captivity but who still returned to duty when he was released from being a POW."
If those were the qualifications to become President, there would be a great many more who would be running. Heroism on the battlefield is no indication of readiness to lead America or 'the free world'. It's the rest of the McCain biography and his vision for the future that's of importance, not this oft-told experience.
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Palin at her most reasonable
;-)
ed
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Have ya heard this little joke,.. A Senator died and went to heaven. St. Peter informed him that as a Democracy, he would spent 24 hrs in hell and 24 hours in heaven before he got to decide where to spend eternity.
So first he got to hell, there were he found many of his friends and associates, eating, drinking, party-ing and playing golf. Women and song. Time went past and 'ping'... he's in Heaven.
There the clouds were nice, weather was clear, food for thought and plenty of praise. The end of twenty four hours passed quickly and St. Peter asked him where he wished to spend eternity.
Promptly the Senator said his praise of heaven and his apologies, but chose to go to hell. St. Peter nodded and led him to the gate where the Senator promptly entered.
Heat and garbage, misery and pain were all that greeted him. Why he asked of Satin, wheres the girls, the drinks and the golf of yesterday?
Satin smiled and said,"Yesterday we were campaigning, today you voted!."
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I don't envy Biden.
Never argue with a fool, someone said, as observers won't be able to tell who is who.
See below about Palin. Sure, there's no reason for concern that she may soon have the ability to blow up the world ten times over. And anyone who says there is just has it in for working women!
"“Katie Couric: Why isn't it better, Gov. Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries; allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?
Gov. Sarah Palin: That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, we're ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health-care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, helping the -- it's got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health-care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that."
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Candace, McCain has ties to people involed in the Macs. As does Obama. To point at one side while ignoring the other proves what?
The lobby system stinks. You can believe in change all you want, but you will never have any change that can actually happen until this is reformed. Campaigns cost way too much money. You will never get rid of the appearance of corruption until you find a way of significantly reducing the cost. I'd be happy to see no more negative ads for a start.
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Interesting discussion of polling and predictive approaches HERE
Enjoy
ed
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Joe Biden's sensitivity training?
Debate preparations
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I think that Palin will without doubt "win" the debate. What do I mean by "win"? Well, I mean she will see the Republican's improve their position in the polls. This, of course, is the only real way to determine whether someone has won or lost.
However, if one asks was she more convincing or did she make the better arguements than Biden then I think that will receive a completely different answer.
The fact of the matter is that personality and image carries far more weight than reasoned argument with the majority of the American public. Palin will use her cute home spun philosophy to simplify everything down to its most basic level while the rounded and more informed views of Biden will fall on stoney ground.
It is amazing in the extreme that a character like Sarah Palin, the moose shooting, environment hating, religiously zealous, creationist hockey mom (whatever one of those is) could ever find herself as possibly the second most powerful person in the world.
If it does happen please nobody go banging a brown paper bag behind McCann or make any sudden movements in his presence, after all the average life expectancy in America is 74 and thats just half way through his potential tenure.
We really would be living in some sort of scary Orwelian world then where children are taught that the mighty one created the world 6000 years ago, distasteful books are burnt and we all have to attend church to be blessed by the witchfinder general.
I, for one, am not happy about having someone like this with their finger on the button. After all you really never know what the voices might tell her to do.
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#239, RWB, I'm starting to feel a little sorry
for SNL's writing staff. Soon, they're going to be
out of work, Sarah and Joe are writing their
skits for them.
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#240, seanspa:
"You will never get rid of the appearance of corruption until you find a way of significantly reducing the cost."
I agree, what this country needs is cheaper corruption!
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You refer the the perception held by some prior to Reagan's first debate that he was not up to the task. Palin certainly has a lot of people wondering about her qualifications, or lack of them. There the comparison ends. Palin has been selected by a man running on the sympathy vote for his POW status. Knowing his voter appeal was plummeting he selected a running mate likely to appeal the Christian Evangelical Right wing of the Republican Party. This decision alone should disqualify him as a viable candidate; that is unless you believe any means justify the ends. There is no doubt that the USA is at the nadir of its short appearance on the world stage. Reagan reinstated respect for the USA. A vote for McCain/Palin will ensure another four, possibly eight years, of disastrous Bush foreign, domestic, and economic policy. The sad truth is that voters in the USA are persuaded by the latest out of context soundbite rather than an understanding of the issues. That's why a candidate who became a pilot on the shoulders of his father, and suffered as a POW is widely regarded as the most qualified, whilst a man who on his own merit has succeeded academically, politically and served his community rather than choose a career to financially enrich himself is regarded as elitist and uppity.
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One of the Orwellian aspects of our little World is that "middle class" really means "working class".
[and, everybody seems to go along with it]
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Brilliant!
;-0
ed
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237 Ed
Hello from Texas. Thanks for the "Reasonable Sarah Palin", and watching that interview with Katie, I must say she is not unreasonable. When Sarah doesn't want to answer a question or bias a media outlet, she won't answer. That is better than saying we'll attack Pakistan (which it seems we propbably will).
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Biden had one of the funniest comments by an American politician when questioned about using words without attribution.
"It's much ado about nothing."
You can't tell if he was commenting wittily on the fact that plagiarism is standard fare, or if he was unaware he'd just repeated his mistake, but I'd bet on the latter. I think he was a disappointing choice: safe, old and yesterday's news. If Obama is serious about either change or winning the election, he didn't show it in his VP choice.
It's true American political debate does all it can to avoid both politics and debate. Both, it can be argued, are pointless.
For example, on health care, both candidates have different reform packages. The enormously well-financed health care lobbyists will be determined to work the details of either package into an even bigger bonanza for the industry, at the cost of other Americans' interests. Chances are excellent they'll be successful.
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# 212 Beebleemoore
Andrew Sullivan at The Daily Dish points out that this is a classic Rove-ian tactic. Start out by undermining the moderator and then if things go wrong you can spin the result around her - saying that she wasn't evenhanded.
And, of course, Gwen Ifill is black ....... well, you know, that says it all really.
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232. Candace9839:
"Re:#229. Last sentence. And McCain's campaign manager was on Freddie Mac's payroll through August."
That in no way compares to the democrats' incestuous ties to Fannie Mae.
No word from Obama about the real reasons for this mess. (Of course, his judgment when it comes to expensive, but unsuccessful, programs has never been stellar.)
But what democrat wants to be the first to go public about a program they promoted that tanked the economy?
The "Shocking" Video
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Something is beginning to make sense now about some of the bloggers who swoop onto this site, bash a few of us round the chops and then disappear again.
Mike Murphy, an old GOP pro, now sidelined, writes about "the well meaning but under-experienced six month wonders who seem to populate most of the GOP campaign in Washington of late."
They shouldn't make themselves so obvious.
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192. wanderingangus:
# 187
Glad that our Border Chieftain took on the Karl Rove issue.
"Karl Rove is very, very smart" is not really a phrase that one sees too often nowadays.
******************
Rove's smarts are well known in circles where acknowledging it doesn't amount to heresy.
Only a fool underestimates Rove's intelligence.
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#178. AndreainNY : "If you want to read a Republican who knows what's going on and has an uncanny ability to decipher political behavior, try Rove. The guy is very, very smart."
Not only smart, but very personable. His TV appearances can be both informative and entertaining.
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Amazing how obvious the BBC is about its support for the McCain/Palin ticket, especially Mr Webb.
What I cannot fathom is why they have taken this stance.
Perhaps someone from the organisation could explain this naked departure from impartiality?
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118, exserviceman.
What's that nonsense about "If Obama had been president in 2006, the US would allready have been defeated in Iraq...."
How about instead "If Obama had been president in 2002 there would never have been an Iraqi War."
I presume you call yourself "exserviceman" to give validity to what you say about Iraq, no matter how ridiculous. Be warned - I am not in the least intimidated.
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133, UKandy.
Annie Oakley was a sharpshooter. That is correct. She was an entertainer and traveled with Buffalo Bill's wild west show. David de Jong called Palin Annie Oakley because she hunts meese and seems to be very proud of it. Not exactly VP material. (Oakley was known only for sharpshooting, in case you might be thinking she was an intellectual.)
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Can anyone explain to me why the linking thing works on these boards but not in E-mail? I tryed to link in an E-mail but to no avail. Is there another step I'm missing? If so, what is it?
Thanks
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While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old rancher, who's hand was caught in the gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Palin and her bid.
The old rancher said, "Well, ya know, Palin is a 'Post Turtle'."
Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a 'Post Turtle' was.
The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a 'Post Turtle'."
The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she don't belong up there, she don't know what to do while she's up there, and you just wonder what kind of dummy put her up there to begin with."
-Deana, Austin, Texas
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139, Ed.
You are quite right about the rugged landscape of Iran. To the north are the Alborz Mountains (an extension of the Hindu Kush), that rise to a height of 19,000 feet. To the west is another high range, the Zagros. Mountains also lie along the eastern boundary. Many of the major cities (Tehran, for instance) are on plateaus just below these ranges.
A land invasion would be foolhardy. There would be war without end.
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Poor Palin- silly Americans!! how did she even get here!!
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#256. tonygreeeg: "Amazing how obvious the BBC is about its support for the McCain/Palin ticket . . . Perhaps someone from the organisation could explain this naked departure from impartiality?"
Welcome newcomer! In the past, precisely the opposite observation has been made about the BBC and Justin. He treads a very fine line.
#133 UKAndy, #258. allmymarbles
Re. Sarah Palin - she does rather disprove what Annie sang in the Irving Berlin musical - "You Can't Get a Man With a Gun."
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#248
Ed,
LOL funny.
Happy Sam
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174, Ubermensch.
I have news for you, fella. Everyone has a bias. It is known as opinion.
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#38
British,
We have long established that MArcus lives on the same planet as the rest of us. He does, however, live in 1973.
I'm an expert on such matters.
DS Sam Tyler
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253. wanderingangus
I've noted the same thing about fly by instigaters. Just clink on the Link that is thier name and you can tell if they are "New" or just a member of the bbc that usually goes elsewhere.
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markingtime #120: Who compared Blair to Churchill! Himself?
I too think that Blair's legusy is still being decided upon, but did he have to go along with the Iraq invation so quickly? The US already has enough enamies (traditional and nontraditional, because of Bush and not because of Bush) for one more unintended difficulty to arise. In the great high school that is the international comunity, we don't need to be ridiculed by our allies and adversaries alike, for sitting at the same lunch table as an ally. I have no doubt that Blair's blatent subservience in this whole affair made it 10 times worss!! But still, jeers are never kind.
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Palin can in fact easily win the debate with the electorate (the judges that count) if she attacks the bailout proposal which George Bush and leading Senators, including Biden, are expected to push, despite its loss in the House. I don't think people outside the US truly understand how hated this plan is, and for good reason--it opens the treasury to Wall Street, all but cedes the Constitution to the executive, and does nothing to help the millions of ordinary people hurt by these crooks. The Republicans, who are politically more astute than the Democrats, are painting themselves as the foes of Wall Street and the saviors of the House vote, while Democrats are elitists who are out of touch with the average person. (Remember, a No vote is popular, BBC and New York Times headlines aside.) This Republican positioning should be a joke but it might work, since for years "responsible" Democrats like Biden have wanted nothing more than to be Big Business's leading party--as with your New Labour, the Biden-type Democrats' support of the working class has become only rhetorical, if that.
If Biden and by extension Obama (a much cleverer politician, but making the wrong noises with the bailout) are stuck as defenders of Bush via Wall Street, all the Republicans have to do is make the appropriate populist noises and *the election is over.* McCain wins. Really. It is that simple. Neither McCain nor Palin have to present any particularly coherent program of their own. All they have to do is leave enough hints that the Democrats will betray their constituency yet again--which in this case has the added advantage of being accurate.
Both VP candidates are indeed poor choices, but the Republicans seem to recognize Palin's (huge) limitations and will work to cover them, while the Democrats are in their typical I'll-pretend-not-to-see mode with Biden.
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Some posters have asserted that the candidates have the right of approval of the debate moderator. I can find nothing on the debate commission website which supports or refutes this. Does anyone have an authoritative reference which will resolve this question?
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211, law.
Moosemom, or meesemom - I love it.
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gtggtg, that's a very astute analysis.
Of course, if the world economy collapses
before the election, then the Republicans lose big
time.
Obama seems to be standing off to the side,
as by his remark prior to the debate last week
that (approximate quote) "the American people want
to hear what someone who will have to deal with
this crisis in 40 days has to say."
Another words (my interpretation), Obama was
saying that he was willing to let the entire world
banking system collapse rather than jump on board
a bill to save it.
And, actually, it makes sense for a potential
candidate to let everything collapse prior to
taking office, rather than presiding over the crisis.
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213, doug.
Annie Oakly was an entertainer. You are ascribing moral qualities based on how good her aim is. As far as I know, she was not known for her intellect.
Palin is also an entertainer.
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RedWhiteandermblue (#250), it was obviously wit, deliberately using an unattributed quote to make his point. I did the same thing in the first post on this thread.
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#269.gtggtg: "Palin can in fact easily win the debate with the electorate (the judges that count) if she attacks the bailout proposal which George Bush and leading Senators, including Biden, are expected to push"
Do you really think attacking her President will endear her to conservatives? I don't think so! By the time November 4th rolls around, other matters will have surfaced, and they won't be favourable to the McCain campaign. Palin will be the least of it.
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221, guns.
You are a true gentleman.
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Thought this was amusing - and surprisingly informative
The first debate in one minute
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236, David.
I wish they would stop calling McCain a hero. He was a victim. He never did anything heroic.
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#260 ProfoundDogs
All in all you feel sorry for the turtle and want to bring it back down to where it belongs and set it free.
And then feel angry about the person who put it there. Let's hunt him down!
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To#100Ptrsln and any others
Latest polls published in Arizona today show McCain leading by 4 points in the ASU poll and 7 points in another (this poll was electronic so was not considered that accurate, since children might have answered the phone and just pushed buttons.) Both polls have a variable of plus or minus of three points.
I think it would be a real hoot if Obama won Arizona!
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wanderingangus. #253. DougTexan. #267
Be happy they come and go.
Although I believe the sites tripleAAA blogger said he was going away for a holiday for a few days, perhaps he is shy with the recent turn of events, or having delerium tremens and decides a fix under another name is better than nothing.
Live and let live.
At times when the site is flat after what Justin possibly felt was a topic that must produce a mass of comments - even he could write in using a nom de plume, to stir the pot.
The anti-Justin or anti-BBC comment followed up by our / your defence of Justin and the BBC must bring tears to his eyes. Could this be the reason that the moderators { with Justin' helping out } are slow at certain times, running around to find him a box of tissues.....
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#269
gtggtg
The challenge for Republicans right now, especially the house type Reps, is they have lost sight of how disgusted most Americans are with the current state of the nation. They also see through the politicking after Mondays vote and feel the pain from the crunch. The rabid righties call their congressmen, the congressmen vote down their leaders, they look totally divided. And McCain looks more pathetic than weak.
The good news is cool aid Reps are so lost they honestly believe that the ridiculous antics over the bailout and vast split between their candidate and house representatives really helps them as McCain is seen as a Maverick and the House Reps as 'doing the right thing'.
So long as McCain and Palin don't present a coherent program (and it may be they can't) and look like they cannot even lead their party, let alone a nation, they cannot win. Plus their message of change without being able to say what they will (or more importantly, can) change makes them look helpless. On the day that the polls show Pennsylvania locked and Obama 8 points ahead in Florida and Colorado (ABC), they need a bold gesture. This is the same day Obama hit 269 electoral college votes according to NPR.
So long as McCain and Palin continue to follow your strategy, they are heading for a landslide. Loss.
Keep drinking.
Pollster Sam
PS Looking forwards to the debate, if only for the SNL skit.
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#278
Marby,
This is something I have been mulling over for a while. Who, when they have had a career of 20 some years doing something else, defines themself by their service. Most veterans I know are proud on Veterans day and get together at the Legion for a social event, but in their pfrivate lives and business lives it is never mentioned.
It seems sad if you define your life around events in your 20's.
Sad Sam
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To#260Profounddogs
Loved your story about the fence post turtle!
I know a few old boys here who have come to the same conclusion. One comment was this:
"She could not pour p--- from a boot if the directions were written on the heel."
(That one word was a bit vulgar and I was not sure I could use it but you get the idea.)
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Earlier I wrote, "Both VP candidates are indeed poor choices." Actually, that's not really correct. Palin is an incredibly *risky* choice. She can blow up in the Republicans' face, but she brings important support from her party's right-wing religious base, and also can be propped up as some sort of typical example of the working class (questions of class in the US are politically "handled" on the symbolic level in the US--yes, one can argue the same for today's UK, but it has been this way for decades in the US--and the Republicans excel at this sort of thing).
Biden, on the other hand, is merely a net negative. It's wrong to think it was only idealists who hold high hopes for Obama--there were also people, like myself, who saw a shrewd politican who might not repeat typical Democratic Party mistakes. The Biden choice was a rude letdown, a typical Democratic Party consultant's choice, the striking of a stupid and meaningless "moderate balance" that exists only in the consultant's own head. Biden brings nothing; all he can do is stand as a contrast to the presidential candidate, Obama, to the detriment of both. Unlike Palin, Biden brings nothing for the party's base, and unlike Palin, nothing can be done to spin Biden that will make people switch their vote to the Democratic side.
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allmymarbles (#278), the word "hero" is certainly overused these days, but I don't think it's inappropriate to apply it to McCain. If a "hero" is someone who puts himself at risk for another's benefit, he did go into harm's way and suffered for it. He would have been much safer serving his naval career onboard without being an aviator.
My objection is that he is treated as someone unique, when there were about 300 pilots and aviators in similar circumstances in Hanoi, and others, of course, who were killed.
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To#279Dceilar
Count me in!
Is this a maverick chase? I am still really good at roping but being on a horse bothers my hip. If you can herd him to me, I can peg and hogtie him. The rest is up to you because I think that meat is too old for much!
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To#283Samtyler1969
It is sad but McCain is not alone in this. Some people just seem to dwell in the past. McCain also seeks to use this politically as much as possible.
There is also this to consider, being a POW for so long, in such a brutal environment, must have effected him in some very profound ways.
The anger that is so evident in him, his rash and erratic behaviors are often present in those who have suffered serious trauma. Has he ever been adequately treated for this or has he just 'endured as a good soldier should?'
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re 275. David_Cunard:
"Do you really think attacking her President will endear her to conservatives? I don't think so! "
No, I didn't say she needed to attack Bush. She merely needs to paint Obama-Biden as supporters of Bush. Big difference. She doesn't even have to mention Bush's name. If she or her handlers are really clever, they can spin this so that it will appear that the bailout was always the Democrats' idea, or something that the Democrats were helplessly dragging the Republicans along. This started almost immeidately; right-wing spin doctors are blaming the decades-old Community Reinvestment Act, a fine piece of legislation that among other things tried to limit racial discrimination in lending. If Republicans can convince enough people that the housing crash is the fault of liberals and black people somehow forcing banks ot make bad loans--and if this doesn't make sense to you, then you just don't understand politics in the United States--then they have quite a coup.
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To#286Garyahill
You are so correct about the 'hero' part. McCain could have found a safe haven to serve in the Navy, if he had wanted that. I agree, also, that there were many 'heroes.'
He WAS not the only one in that prison camp. however, he IS the only one from that camp who is running for president.
A politician uses whatever he thinks will get him elected.
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#284, aquarigal, all I can say is, you're hanging
out with the wrong crowd if they do know how
to pour p--- out of a boot!
And, how did it get there in the first place?
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#269 Sam_Tyler1969:
"The challenge for Republicans right now, especially the house type Reps, is they have lost sight of how disgusted most Americans are with the current state of the nation. " No, they're doing a pretty good job of figuring it out. It's the Democrats who can't make the jump.
Think about it: The Republicans have to make the difficult choice of bucking their own party's president to win in November. Those who have to, are doing it, and are making the necessary difficult political adjustments.
The Democrats on the other hand have to make the *easy* choice of bucking the unpopular, failed Republican president. But most of them still aren't doing it, in fact, rhetoric aside, they are caving in to his ridiculous bad faith bailout proposal.
"So long as McCain and Palin continue to follow your strategy, they are heading for a landslide. Loss." Do you mean the one that has them *leading the polls* after one of the most humiliating political losses of the party's President's failed career? Pretty stupid, aren't they? Really don't know what they are doing, do they?
And it is not my strategy. It is theirs.
*This race should not even be close.* A halfway organized, strategically coherent Democratic Party should sweep the White House and the Congressional races as well. That this isn't happening should frighten Democrats. Democrats should be asking, Why?
BTW, the Democrats lose a close race. I don't have the link but an amazing 6% will switch their votes away from Obama because he is black. 6% is a monster shift in any election, but especially in an American election. This is not even bringing up the Election Day vote-suppression and "voting problem" shenanigans that the Republicans have all but promised to pull out, if necessary.
I am sorry that I am a Writer of Bad Thoughts. I readily admit too being a cynic--per Bierce's definition (paraphrase): A blackguard who insists on describing things as they are, rather than as they should be.
"Keep drinking."
I'm not drinking. Does this mean you're buying? :)
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280. I'm looking at the polls you mentioned but the numbers I see are not the numbers you're quoting. The ASU poll has McCain up 7 (not 4), while the Rasmussen poll has McCain up a whopping 21 points (not 7, as you stated). And believe it or not, electronic polling is considered one of the most reliable out there. SurveyUSA and Rasmussen, both of which poll electronically, are near the top of 538s list of best pollsters. Machines have no bias and people feel more comfortable telling them who they will vote for they would a human pollster.
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I do not understand people keep talking about experience. Palin is experienced, no doubt about that, probably more than Obama.
What she lacks is knowledge, basic curiosity and probably basic intelligence, not experience.
So its finally up to the people if they want to elect a smart guy with not much experience (along with an experienced running mate) or if they experience two experienced people, one of whom voted for the war and another demonstrably dumb.
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Re #269
Unbelievable myopia and complete lack of economic understanding. Unfortunately you're not alone however. This view reminds me of the man who was tired of a friend slapping him on the back every time they met; so he fastened some impact explosive to his shoulder - when asked why, he said next time that so and so slaps my back he'll blow his hand off! The type of inaction promoted by folks like you will HURT main street. This isn't a Wall Street bailout it's a mainstreet rescue. Figure it out. Banks fail - no money for loans - no investment - jobs cut - you can figure out the rest. The situation we now face in this country and around the world is due to lack of oversight, lack of regulation - a free market left to to its Animal Farm contemptuous reactions. To paraphrase Barak, we need to stop discussing how the fire started and do what we can to put it out. Once that's done, revise laws, establish oversight and a level of regulation that does not impede competition.
For those of you outside the US, the "bailout" plan is not hated by the majority of us. Some of us understand the issues and do not rely on the soundbites of talking heads on TV to arrive at our opinions.
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gtggtg
I'm always buying.
I disagree. Yes there is a 'bubba' factor but it is concentrated in the states where any Democrat would lose anyway. Net net Obama is ahead, and pulling away. The Reps are losing on all fronts, and falling behind. We can only wait to see how it pans out, but the signs for the Republicans are bad.
Tab Sam
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To#291Gunsandreligion
Some of these guys have a hard time finding their way home on Saturday night! ( but the horse knows the way)
I like them anyway and I never did say I only spent time with the 'good crowd.' How much fun would that be?
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To#291Gunsandreligion
Some of these old boys have a hard time finding their way home on Saturday night!
I like them anyway and I never did say I only spent time with the 'good crowd.' How much fun would that be?
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#286
You recognize the word hero is overused these days yet you are still willing to apply it to a man who graduated towards the bottom of his class, became a pilot only due to his father's influence, crashed five aircraft and was eventually shot down to spend the rest of the conflict in a POW camp. I recently read of a soldier in Iraq who threw himself on top of a grenade to smother the explosion and to protect his comrades - a premeditated act of bravery that in my opinion more closely fits the general accepted definition of hero. Apart from the media devaluing terms such as hero, however, I object to McCain's willingness to trade on the electorates' perception of him as a hero. Apart from the obvious irrelevance to a thinking persons vote, what kind pf person asks for our vote because he regularly had his teeth knocked out? Does he think we owe him the presidency because of what he endured?
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292 gtggtg
"BTW, the Democrats lose a close race. I don't have the link but an amazing 6% will switch their votes away from Obama because he is black. 6% is a monster shift in any election, but especially in an American election."
I'm aware of that recent claim, which got wide coverage. But I'm pretty sure I posted a link here to a piece that threw a lot of cold water on the 'finding'. Fairly sure it was on Fivethirtyeight.com
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#295, newbriton, this whole mess is starting
to sound like Get Up and Bar the Door.
And, all this time, I didn't think that those
Scots spoke English.
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289 gtggtg wrote:
"If she or her handlers are really clever, they can spin this so that it will appear that the bailout was always the Democrats' idea, or something that the Democrats were helplessly dragging the Republicans along. This started almost immeidately; right-wing spin doctors are blaming the decades-old Community Reinvestment Act, a fine piece of legislation that among other things tried to limit racial discrimination in lending."
1 They just announced on the BBC News that both Obama and McCain say they'll vote for the deal. Are even the Rep spin doctors able to get her to attack it without anyone noticing the slight....inconsistency?
2 As for spinning the blame on the Dems, there has been plenty of that here. Apparently the crash is all the fault of Pelosi, Obama, Clinton [B], and Carter [J]. I'm just surprised they left out LBJ, JFK, FDR and Truman.
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To#293Ptrsln
"I only know what I read in the newspaper."
These are figures Arizona Republic reported.
I do not agree that electronic polls are more accurate. I once had a cat who would answer the phone when we were not home and then press the phone buttons. Perhaps she chose to vote for me.
Under any circumstances the figures you previously stated were obviously not correct and polls really do not interest me much. It is the results that count.
McCain will probably take Arizona but it sure would be FUN IF HE DID NOT!
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#294
I'd like to help you understand why so many people, including now leaders of the Republican party, are saying Palin is inexperienced. To begin with she has some experience it is true, the point you miss is that it is not the kind of experience that is relevant to being a potential Vice President of the USA. However, beyond what I and a growing number of others may think, she has over the last several days ably demonstrated herself that she is an unqualified candidate. She must also know this herself and I've no doubt the McCain campaign and leading Republicans are now exploring how they can with dignity get her off the ticket. But maybe not, after all, why have intelligent, qualified individuals run for public office when we can have just anyone? Faced with a candidate who has demonstrated his commitment to public service, fought to gain a position at one of the country's leading universities, and elected the editor of the Law Review, elected as a senator from one of the most populous and influential states in the union and a small town mayor who became Governor of a state that represents 0.2 percent of the US population, I can see where the experience lays. Plus what motivates the candidates? Republican policies have left the USA with an economic disaster, no social conscience, and the ridicule of most of the world. The idea that any thinking person would want another four and possibly eight years of the same is an outrage.
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"The sad truth is that voters in the USA are persuaded by the latest out of context soundbite rather than an understanding of the issues."
As opposed to those wonderfully perceptive British voters who really understand all the issues ? Yet more patronising anti-American claptrap from a nation that is slowly sinking into the sunset of history.
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Gus,
And female!xx
ed
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Andrea, A comment from your "shocking" video,
;-)ed
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#305. vivaelcid: "Yet more patronising anti-American claptrap from a nation that is slowly sinking into the sunset of history."
You might consider looking in the mirror.
In any case the screen name 'newbriton' doesn't necessarily mean that the writer is from the UK any more than "Viva El Cid" means you are of Latin heritage. This is no place for incivility and simply reminds us of "the ugly American" of years gone by. Hopefully those times have passed on by, but apparently not in your case.
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NoRash (259),
Depends upon your email "client" (what software you use for email).Most clients will accept a simple URL (http:// address), and, depending upon the receiving end's settings this will appear as a "hot" link or not.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #278
That outlandish as usual orf course McCain is a hero. Most people call Mandela a hero and he was treated far better in prison than McCain was.
Neither gave in to the captors.
McCain unlike most of the weasals like Dodd,Frank and Pelosi is a great American
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303. If the Arizona Repubic were reporting your numbers, they have corrected themselves. Their article shows a 7 pt and 21pt lead, as I said before, for an average lead of 14 points for McCain. Not the 18 he had two weeks ago, but polls numbers can fluctuate somewhat, even in safe states. This is still nowhere near tossup territory. And I should point out that since those polls only came out today, I was using the most recent numbers available in my original post.
The argument for the accuracy of electronic polling is based on its track record in previous elections, and nothing else. If pets or children are responding to polls, they are doing a wonderful job of mirroring the (human) adult electorate. (So your cat is probably a republican. You might want to have some words with him or her).
As you might imagine, I am very interested in poll numbers and predictions based on polling, which is why when I see sites like Morris', they bother me a great deal. Accurate polls, even if they can't predict the winner at this time, can offer a realistic snapshot of the electorate, and guide a politician's campaign.
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Gtggtg, You talk some sense, sadly.
Ciao
ed
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289:
"1 They just announced on the BBC News that both Obama and McCain say they'll vote for the deal. Are even the Rep spin doctors able to get her to attack it without anyone noticing the slight....inconsistency?"
Uh, this argues *against* my point? Again, she doesn't have to attack McCain or even Bush. She just has to attack the Democrats. If both parties are seen as the party of Wall Street--then, ad Republicans, since Republicans + Wall Street is the default position. That's now established--both candidates want to bail out the banks while promising nothing for ordinary people hurt by lenders, no regulation included in the plan, passing of extraordinary power to the Bush White House, obviously symbolic "reforms" thrown in as naked distractors, etc. Now, if this is extended, if Democrats are seen as the "real" party of Wall Street, their main water carriers--game, set, and match Republicans.
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308. David_Cunard:
"This is no place for incivility and simply reminds us of "the ugly American" of years gone by"
Really?
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310. MagicKirin:
"ref #278
That outlandish as usual orf course McCain is a hero. Most people call Mandela a hero and he was treated far better in prison than McCain was."
Of course McCain is a war hero. This is just another contortion necessary to justify Obama's inexperience. Like these others:
Experience doesn't matter.
The only real experience is from having done the job of president.
Experience is from the past, so it's dated (my favorite).
Running a presidential campaign counts as experience.
Knowledge of foreign countries is only meaningful when you've actually lived among their people.
Obama's got more experience than Bush.
Obama's got more experience than Palin.
Biden's experience makes up for Obama's inexperience.
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#314. AndreainNY: "This is no place for incivility and simply reminds us of "the ugly American" of years gone by"
Really?"
Yes, really! Perhaps you're too young to remember but that was the perception of Americans, flashing around their money, wearing loud shirts and generally mouthing off about the inadequacies of European food, plumbing, dentistry and anything which didn't measure up to their standards. Times have changed - and I would have hoped that 'vivaelcid' might be more temperate in future. A small request; even executioners treat their victim with respect. (Although perhaps not in Iraq.)
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308. At 00:12am " This is no place for incivility and simply reminds us of "the ugly American" of years gone by. Hopefully those times have passed on by, but apparently not in your case."
Surely you jest ? This thread has been filled with the most blatant attacks on Sarah Palin, people who dare to live in small towns, Republicans (or as many of you say "hicks"), the people of Alaska
and Americans in general. For some reason you didn't rush to condemn those "incivil" remarks, I wonder why not ? And your generalization of the "Ugly American" is both hypocritical and way off mark...I'm actually an Englishman who saw the writing on the wall years ago.
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308, David.
"The Ugly American" was the good guy. For some reason, perhaps because of the name, it has developed the opposite meaning. Maybe I am the only person who read the book.
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310, Ubermensch.
Since when is survival equated with heroism? If I survive cancer am I a heroine, or just damn lucky?
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Good to see that the Dems are taking no chances on the debate. The debate's moderator, Gwen Ifill, who is a fawning admirer of Obama, "forgot" to tell the moderating panel that she has a book on Obama coming out in January. It's one thing to have a biased moderator on a VP debate but for that moderator to also have a financial interest in one side winning is really beyond a joke.
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I cant exercise enough discipline and just read a god book instead . I will watch the debate tomorrow with Mrs . Mc Moose mom and the real Joe six pack- the guy who only has one house, and not a lot money like most of us in the US .
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To#311Ptrsln
I have no wish to dispute your statistics. Numbers usually give me a headache unless they are on the plus side of my bank balance.
That cat probably was a Republican!
She was aloof, self centered, sneaky and we often thought she might sneak into our room at night to suck out our breaths and probably our souls so we always kept the door closed. However, being mostly Democratic, we cared for her for years until she faded and died of old age.
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321, law.
I am not going to watch the debate. It will be long and boring and programmed and there is a book I can read instead. If Palin succeeds in making a fool of herself it is sure to be all over the media the next day anyway.
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Ref 310.
Mandela is a hero because he was prepared to go to prison for his beliefs, but more importantly, because of his actions when he was released.
To even attempt a comparison is half witted.
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320. At 03:40am on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
Good to see that the Dems are taking no chances on the debate. The debate's moderator, Gwen Ifill, who is a fawning admirer of Obama, "forgot" to tell the moderating panel that she has a book on Obama coming out in January. It's one thing to have a biased moderator on a VP debate but for that moderator to also have a financial interest in one side winning is really beyond a joke."
Oh dear poor Sarah, sad little lamb. How pathetic and predictable
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325. Simon.
If the moderator does favor Obama, then she will bend over backwards so as not to appear biased. That can work in the meese hunter's favor.
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"Oh dear poor Sarah, sad little lamb. How pathetic and predictable"
Yes, it's true. It is rather pathetic and predictable that a so-called professional like Gwen Ifill would forget to mention she has a financial interest in seeing Obama win. It is also rather pathetic and predictable that this is the American mainstream media's idea of being "impartial" and "balanced".
But biased moderator or not Sarah Palin will hold her own...she took on the vested interests of Big Oil and her own party machine in Alaska and won.
But wouldn't it be nice if the media stopped trying
to be the Democratic Party's own private PR firm and started acting as impartially as they claim they are.
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Actually it's very sad and more than a little disturbing that party politics seems to over-rule any idea of professionalism or integrity when it comes to Gwen Ifill's role as moderator in the VP debate.
"allmymarbles" actually makes a very good point above by mentioning that Ifill may be harder on Biden in order to prove she is being impartial . It's precisely because she has compromised herself in such a way that she should have had the decency to warn the moderating panel that she had a vested interest in the outcome of the election. If she was a true professional who had some journalistic integrity she would never have got herself into this position. It's not about Left or Right , it's about fair play and balance. It's not her being an Obama supporter that is the main problem here (she could rise above that and be a fair moderator) it's the fact that she stands to make some serious money from her book if Obama wins. It's like offering a bribe to a referee..it's just not on. And I'd be saying the same thing if Ifill was writing a gushy book on Palin instead of Obama. Whatever she does now people will say the debate was fixed. Sad.
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Back in the 70's we had an inspirational speaker from the US speak at our school assembly, where he referred to our fine city of Kettering (pop 46,962). After the assembly we were all laughing at that comment.
Will be nipping back to the UK next week and staying with my parents in the VILLAGE of Geddington (pop 1504).
Dennis Lane
Pretoria (pop approx 1,000,000)
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"327. At 08:28am on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"Oh dear poor Sarah, sad little lamb. How pathetic and predictable"
Yes, it's true. It is rather pathetic and predictable that a so-called professional like Gwen Ifill would forget to mention she has a financial interest in seeing Obama win."
And its entirely predictable that you are seeking to blame the moderator ahead of the debate. Maybe she believes in evolution too (sob) ! Is there no end to her corruption?
Can Karl Rove be drafted in?
Or maybe Palin can try and perform creditably a tall order I know)
" It is also rather pathetic and predictable that this is the American mainstream media's idea of being "impartial" and "balanced". "
Yes its all the medja's fault. They chose Sarah after all didn't they.
I beleive they are also repsonsible for shooting John down in Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh was was head of CBS, in disguise of course) , but they haven't released the records.
"But biased moderator or not Sarah Palin will hold her own...she took on the vested interests of Big Oil and her own party machine in Alaska and won."
Not actually the truth and the truth is going to cause her problems.
"But wouldn't it be nice if the media stopped trying
to be the Democratic Party's own private PR firm and started acting as impartially as they claim they are. "
It would be nice if far right republicans grew up and admitted they chose a lemon.
Maybe they could slip her the questions in advance as they did with Regan?
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310. At 00:18am on 02 Oct 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #278
That outlandish as usual orf course McCain is a hero. Most people call Mandela a hero and he was treated far better in prison than McCain was.
Neither gave in to the captors.
McCain unlike most of the weasals like Dodd,Frank and Pelosi is a great American"
Could there be a more deeply insulting, offensive and rasciost comment?
How many of McCain's friends and family were killed and imprisoned by the US Government when he was in prison?
And when did McCain work to remove one of the most viscious and unprinicpled regimes of the late twentieth century?
But we can guess your real problem with Mandela.
People who display bigotry in one area usually carry it over to other areas
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jerkin what makes you think mandela was not tortured.
and did you ever hear how long he was imprisoned for.
Also not having been DRAFTED he was a volunteer.
331 simon again makes the point that every time there is a choice for your comparisons you pick a person darker than you to use as your example of someone who is not as great as your white hero.
Simon says " majerkins a racist"
simons right
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Sarah Palin is a RELIGIOUS EXTREMEIST! in other words, a wolf in sheeps clothing. I almost think it does'nt matter how good or bad she does at the debates,because this country is completely divided w/ only faint shades of grey. The two party system leaves you w/ not much choice. Some people are voting against Obama because he did'nt wear a flag lapel pin! How do you fight that sort of illogical thinking.
Also, if I may, Palins choice to have a handicapped child is great, good for her, but she has the monitary means to take care of that child, and put him-her in all the best schools, and get the best health care. That would'nt be the case for many working Americans, trust me.
My stomach is in knots and will be until I find out Nov.5th. because noone can change a religious biggots mind.
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I don't know why people assume that Ifill can't do a professional, even-handed job of moderating, even though she has her own political preferences. She has an established record as a moderator, after all. (Wait a minute, yes I do. They just want to make a big deal out of minutiae to distract attention from the substantive issues.)
Every journalist has his or her own politics, like the rest of us. Professionals do their job impartially despite their personal politics. Ifill was chosen because she is a respected professional. She has much more to gain by doing a good job than she does by indulging her personal political leanings, and much to lose if she does the latter.
I'm assuming she will do her usual competent, professional job until I see and hear otherwise.
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305
This really is a debate within itself. The British and American perpective of each others electorate.
Obviously you two guys are not going to see eye to eye over this issue but I think from my perspective as a Brit I would say that the British guys view is pretty typical of the British view of the American electorate. I have to say that they do not help their cause when someone like Sarah Palin can be a main player in this latest election.
In terms of the British electorate, well this is a country that stood for 18 years of Thatcher and secumed to the short term benefits and get rich quickly schemes (for some of us) at the expense of our manufacturing base. I don't think either side should be playing the "we have a more intelligent, thoughful electorate than you" card.
Of course both our democracies are subject to the tyranny of the minority in that the political system allows in many cases for the winner to be voted into power when the majority of the population did not vote for the successful party. In the case of America over the last 8 years that fact restores my faith in the intelligence of the American people.
We have the biggest meltdown in the financial markets since the Great Depression and this happened on GW's watch. I find it amazing that, as the Republican nomination, this is not effecting greatly McCann's campaign. Were the situated transposed to Britain and we were the world's only superpower I really believe that the emcumbent party would not see power again this side of 20 years. This fact seems to me to suggest that either American voter do not associate economic mismanagement with party afilliations or that they do not see managing the economy as part of the administrations role or that they do not see Bush as responsible for economic mismangement in the first place. Without doubt the British would.
Now maybe this has something to do with each country having a different perpective on what government is about and certainly the British do expect their Government to be more proactive in a whole variety of areas.
So is Bush responsible for the economic probelems of the world? Well I think the old clique about America sneezes and the world catches cold is certainly ture. What is also true is that the financial problems that have occurred eminated in the US. Putting aside economically whether the Bush administration should have seen the currently problems coming or not or whether they should have reacted quicker, one thing is beyond doubt.
If only half of Joseph Stiglitz book "three trillion dollar war" is true then this must have had a terrible effect on the American deficit which currently stands as the biggest in US history. Stiglitz states that this is only half the story as America is going to be paying for this war for may years to come. This ill advised and immoral war, propogated by lies and deceit will continue to have a lasting impact as I believe it has contributed directly to the bankrupting of the US economy and as a result caused untold damage to the rest of the world.
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rockSimon1 (#335), that's a quite thorough analysis, but isn't a great deal of the difference merely due to the fact that in the UK, the head of government is chosen by the House of Commons rather than by the people generally?
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334, Gary.
McCain is laying the groundwork for a complaint of bias if Palin comes off badly tonight. He is a desperate man. Gambler's odds are two to one for Obama and climbing daily. If the election were held today Obama would win by a landslide.
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332, Jack.
"Simon says " majerkins a racist"
That is why I call him "Ubermensch." Ubermenschen are racist. Ask Hitler.
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The unprecedented interest in this VP debate, and the fact that most of the discussion centers on what Gov. Palin will do, while Biden is largely ignored, is a glaring example of the enthusiasm and controversy that her nominating have generated.
Personally, I don't expect much from the debate since I expect her performance to be limited to canned speeches and attacks on both Obama and Biden, while Biden will be forced to short and safe diatribes and will limit his attacks on criticism of McCain's and Bush's policies.
While both Biden and Obama are fair play, any attacks questioning Palin's record or qualifications will be unacceptable to the American public and would backfire on Obama/Biden.
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"And its entirely predictable that you are seeking to blame the moderator ahead of the debate. Maybe she believes in evolution too (sob) ! Is there no end to her corruption?"
So, in Simon21's world view it's perfectly alright for a supposed "impartial" moderator of an extremely important debate to actually have a financial interest in seeing the party of one of the candidates win ? What has this got to do with evolution ? It's about someone not disclosing their financial interest in a debate's outcome. If Ifill had nothing to be ashamed of why didn't she inform the moderating panel about her obvious conflict of interest. I guess simon21 believes that the end justifies the means and that all notions of balance, integrity and fairplay go out the window if it's your side that's committing the outrage.
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"She has much more to gain by doing a good job than she does by indulging her personal political leanings, and much to lose if she does the latter."
Wrong ! If Obama is president when her book comes out in January she could make as much as $400,000 in royalties. If he isn't president her book won't make much sense ("The Age Of Obama" for a guy who just lost an election ?) and she won't sell so many copies. Why is it so hard for people to see that this just isn't professional ? If she had any integrity she would have told the moderating panel "Oh, by the way I have a book praising Obama coming out soon that I could make a lot of money from if he wins the presidency....is that a conflict of interest?"
Why didn't she say that ??
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"McCain is laying the groundwork for a complaint of bias if Palin comes off badly tonight. He is a desperate man. "
Rubbish. McCain wasn't told about Ifill's book deal when the debate was first organised. Now he knows, he doesn't want to pull the debate but has to register his displeasure at what is an obvious breach of journalistic integrity. If Ifill is such a "honourable" professional why did she even give McCain a chance to complain about the debate ?
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341. At 8:09pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"She has much more to gain by doing a good job than she does by indulging her personal political leanings, and much to lose if she does the latter."
Wrong ! If Obama is president when her book comes out in January she could make as much as $400,000 in royalties. If he isn't president her book won't make much sense ("The Age Of Obama" for a guy who just lost an election ?)"
You cannot accept that people like her are not automatically corruptible can you?
We know what the problem is and it is the thing she shares with Obama that gets your goat. Its frankly unbeleivable.
It does not occur to you of course that she might actually value her integirty.
"and she won't sell so many copies. Why is it so hard for people to see that this just isn't professional ? If she had any integrity she would have told the moderating panel "Oh, by the way I have a book praising Obama coming out soon that I could make a lot of money from if he wins the presidency....is that a conflict of interest?""
Why didn't she say that ??"
because you are assuming that she would make a fortune you are assuming she is therfore corrupt and unprofessional and we know why you mAKe that assumption.
Why not admit it!
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Greetings, my first appearance in here.
And to counter the incoming I shall no doubt receive I am over this side of the pond, in the dark, cold, dismal UK, checking whether I have any pension left or a few coins to pay the utility bills.
Can I ask our American and therefore far sharper friends a few things?
1 How often does a VP choice matter - Mr Potatoe (sic) Man, Spiro (and one for me) Agnew, Geraldine (not an anything "mom" really) - seems a bit hit and miss doesn't it?
2 How many recent VPs/candidates went on to their greatness with anything resembling credit - Ford, Bush (the daddy), Nixon. Possibly Johnston?
3 Will it be as stifling and boring and uninformative as the great Obama/McCain snooze-fest, with any independent thought or spontaneity presumably severly frowned on by the funding puppermasters?
Regards to all.
Except Marcus probably, suspect I might not be too keen ......
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"At 8:03pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"And its entirely predictable that you are seeking to blame the moderator ahead of the debate. Maybe she believes in evolution too (sob) ! Is there no end to her corruption?"
So, in Simon21's world view it's perfectly alright for a supposed "impartial" moderator of an extremely important debate to actually have a financial interest in seeing the party of one of the candidates win ?"
Does she? How? She has a financial interesrt in being professional does she not?
" What has this got to do with evolution ? It's about someone not disclosing their financial interest in a debate's outcome."
So Obama will only win the presidnecy if she is corrupt - that is what you think?
And what does she and Obama share, ah there it is again!
You prejudices are astounding.
" If Ifill had nothing to be ashamed of why didn't she inform the moderating panel about her obvious conflict of interest. I guess simon21 believes that the end justifies the means and that all notions of balance, integrity and fairplay go out the window if it's your side that's committing the outrage."
And of course women like this are incapable of behaving in a public forum with integrity.
Your nineteenth century attitudes are all too obvious.
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When vivaelcid (#341) computed the gain/loss tradeoff and got a different result than I, perhaps it was because he places little or no value on a professional reputation. Granted, from a Republican point of view, reputations aren't worth much.
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"334. At 5:48pm on 02 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
I don't know why people assume that Ifill can't do a professional, even-handed job of moderating, even though she has her own political preferences. She has an established record as a moderator, after all. (Wait a minute, yes I do. They just want to make a big deal out of minutiae to distract attention from the substantive issues.)"
Well said. We know the reason why this sort of person "cannot" behave with integrity.
It is the same reason Obama is said to have achieved "nothing" and to owe his political career solely to white mentors.
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"342. At 8:47pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"McCain is laying the groundwork for a complaint of bias if Palin comes off badly tonight. He is a desperate man. "
Rubbish. McCain wasn't told about Ifill's book deal when the debate was first organised. Now he knows, he doesn't want to pull the debate but has to register his displeasure at what is an obvious breach of journalistic integrity. If Ifill is such a "honourable" professional why did she even give McCain a chance to complain about the debate ?"
Sorry what are you saying? That this woman is incapable of acting with integrity? That her and her actions alone will win Obama the election?
He can't win it by campaigning like his white opponent?
That this woman has not got a considerable financial interest in being a good moderator in front of thousands (millions) of people?
Or is it simply that women "like this" can't be trusted?
I think we know the answer.
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Seems a long time coming that first post!
Think I've sussed it though - Auntie is pre-moderating all posts, as it does all children's blogs?!
Is that because of the references to the lady candidate or in deference to The Great Leader's favoured reading matter?
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We now also see that Ifill is a well-experienced professional journalist and an accepted moderator in other debates.
In addition her book is prominently described on her website - so it seems she was concealing nothing.
To claim such a woman would threaten the rest of her career by openly trying to "fix" a debate in front of millions - is nothing but a disgusting slur designed to cover up Palin's ignorance.
And of course is founded on the idea that people like "this" cannot be trusted. Obama gets similar comments.
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"And of course women like this are incapable of behaving in a public forum with integrity.
Your nineteenth century attitudes are all too obvious."
I'm not quite sure what simon21 is going on about. What do exactly mean by "women like this" ? If you mean women who with-hold the truth about their having a financial interest in the outcome of a debate which they are moderating then , yes "women like this".
If it is 19th Century to expect a supossedly impartial journalist to have the common courtesy
to let all sides on a debate know that she has a book coming out that will favour one side and from which she will make money if that side wins then I guess I must be 19th Century.
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"When vivaelcid (#341) computed the gain/loss tradeoff and got a different result than I, perhaps it was because he places little or no value on a professional reputation."
Are you people really so in the tank for Obama that you cannot see that she has already damaged her own "professional reputation" by not telling anyone on the moderating panel about her book ? If she had done a glowing book on McCain called the "Age Of McCain" coming out in Jan'2009 from which she would make a hefty sum if McCain WAS president, all reasonable people would have questioned her integrity, myself included. In these debates you have to be seen to be above reproach..she has let everyone down by her evasions.
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346. At 9:07pm on 02 Oct 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
When vivaelcid (#341) computed the gain/loss tradeoff and got a different result than I, perhaps it was because he places little or no value on a professional reputation. Granted, from a Republican point of view, reputations aren't worth much."
His or her views on this woamn are entirely predictable.
Ignoring the distinguished career and credentials of this woman, who has moderated many debates all that is done is a crude attempt to slur her.
She has written a book and this automatically means she will throw all professionalism aside.
The basic reason is that people "like this" do not actually have any integrity and cannot be trusted.
And this is leaving aside the inane point that Obama needs the corruption of Gwen Ifill to win the presidency.
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351. At 9:39pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"And of course women like this are incapable of behaving in a public forum with integrity.
Your nineteenth century attitudes are all too obvious."
I'm not quite sure what simon21 is going on about. What do exactly mean by "women like this" ? If you mean women who with-hold the truth about their having a financial interest in the outcome of a debate which they are moderating then , yes "women like this".
I think you know very well. What do Gewn Ifill and Obama share?
"If it is 19th Century to expect a supossedly impartial journalist to have the common courtesy
to let all sides on a debate know that she has a book coming out that will favour one side and from which she will make money if that side wins then I guess I must be 19th Century."
She put the info on her public website and no one has suggested she is "supposedly" anything.
What she is, is a widely respected professional journalist of many years standing.
The idea that she would attempt to crudely fix an public debate to sell a book, and thus ruin her (40 year) career is risible.
The actual point is that she will be corrupt because people "like this" always are in the end.
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"Sorry what are you saying? That this woman is incapable of acting with integrity? That her and her actions alone will win Obama the election?"
She may be capable of acting with integrity but with regard to this debate and her book she hasn't.
"He can't win it by campaigning like his white opponent?"
What's "white" got to do with it ? What difference does it make what their skin colours are ?
"That this woman has not got a considerable financial interest in being a good moderator in front of thousands (millions) of people?"
No, because NPR pay her wages whatever she does. And the royalties from a best-seller would dwarf her present income.
"Or is it simply that women "like this" can't be trusted?"
Again with the "women like this" comment. What does that refer to ? That shes a rather compromised journalist ? That she works for the Left-leaning NPR ? Please explain yourself , if possible. I really don't know what you're going on about.
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"352. At 9:45pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"When vivaelcid (#341) computed the gain/loss tradeoff and got a different result than I, perhaps it was because he places little or no value on a professional reputation."
Are you people really so in the tank for Obama that you cannot see that she has already damaged her own "professional reputation" by not telling anyone on the moderating panel about her book ? If she had done a glowing book on McCain called the "Age Of McCain" coming out in Jan'2009 from which she would make a hefty sum if McCain WAS president, all reasonable people would have questioned her integrity, myself included. In these debates you have to be seen to be above reproach..she has let everyone down by her evasions."
So it is worth her while throwing away a career of over 40 years?
And she will attempt to distort a pulbic debate in front of millions to boost her book sales?
because Obama will only win because of her.
And she put the book on her website so she hardly concealed anything.
But these aren't the real issue. The real issue is prejudice
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355. At 9:52pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"Sorry what are you saying? That this woman is incapable of acting with integrity? That her and her actions alone will win Obama the election?"
She may be capable of acting with integrity but with regard to this debate and her book she hasn't."
Oh you know that do you? How? She has concealed nothing.
"He can't win it by campaigning like his white opponent?"
What's "white" got to do with it ? What difference does it make what their skin colours are ?"
You tell me you're the one with the problem.
"That this woman has not got a considerable financial interest in being a good moderator in front of thousands (millions) of people?"
"No, because NPR pay her wages whatever she does. And the royalties from a best-seller would dwarf her present income."
Oh NPR would continue to pay her if she hashed the debate would they? In front of millions?
Her career as a distinguished journalist would be unaffected?
"Or is it simply that women "like this" can't be trusted?"
"Again with the "women like this" comment. What does that refer to ? That shes a rather compromised journalist ? That she works for the Left-leaning NPR ? Please explain yourself , if possible. I really don't know what you're going on about."
Is she compromised? How? The only compromise is you inability to beleive that such people can behave propererly.
And the idea Obama's election rests on her shoulders is too risible for words.
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"His or her views on this woamn are entirely predictable."
You don't know me, so how can my views on this "woamn" be "entirely predictable".
Ignoring the distinguished career and credentials of this woman, who has moderated many debates all that is done is a crude attempt to slur her.
If she was so "distinguished" why did she not tell the panel or the McCain camp about her book at the appropriate time and let the panel decide if there was a conflict on interest ?
"She has written a book and this automatically means she will throw all professionalism aside."
No, she has written a book called "Age Of Obama" in which she lavishes praise on Obama. It is due to be published on the day of the Presidential Inauguration which will give her book maximum exposure (and sales) IF Obama wins. If she was concerned about her "integrity" she would have stepped aside way before this.
"The basic reason is that people "like this" do not actually have any integrity and cannot be trusted."
Again with people "like this".!! What are you trying to say ?? Journalists ? Democrats ? It's really hard to discuss something with someone who writes in riddles . Please try and explain yourself...
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353, Simon.
As I said before, a criticism of the moderator puts McCain in the position of claiming bias if Palin does badly.
McCain is in a desperate situation and is looking for any advantage. Given the status of the economy, and the wrong-headedness of choosing an ignorant backwoods politico as his running mate, McCain, at this point in time, has no chance of winning.
A new disaster could change the picture, but time is running short.
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"But these aren't the real issue. The real issue is prejudice"
Again, you'll have to do a LOT better at explaining your weird little insinuations . Are you suggesting I'm prejudiced against journalists who show little professional judgment ? Yep, I am.
Are you suggesting I'm prejudiced against Obama supporters muddying the waters on a very important debate by bringing a financial interest into it ? Yes, indeed.
Am I prejudiced against women (or men ) who with-hold vital information from a panel deciding whether they're the right person for a debate? Yes, again.
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vivaelcid, I'm sure you've worked it out by now, but if you dare to criticize someone happens to be black, Simon accuses you of being a racist. To deny this is futile, as the denial apparently confirms this truth. It's quite pathetic.
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"McCain is in a desperate situation and is looking for any advantage."
If that's true (and you can dream) then why did Ifill give him the ammunition to get that advantage? I'll repeat again...Why didn't Ifill inform the moderating panel and the McCain camp that she had the book coming out. It doesn't matter whether she "fixes" the debate...a good judge NEVER puts themselves in a position where they could be accused of "fixing". McCain knew she was an Obama supporter and was willing to let that ride but he was not happy she had a financial interest in the debate's outcome and that she didn't admit that when she appeared before the panel..
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262, Viva.
At the risk of suggesting you are naive, it is my impression that you only see what the politicos want you to see. You are not looking beneath the surface.
These are all games. It is not what they say, but why they say it. Look for the hidden agenda.
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Hi seanspa, thanks for the heads-up. Now simon21's weird little comments all make sense (if that's the right word). I actually had no idea Ifill was black but even knowing that - she is in the wrong. Unlike people like Simon21 who judge everyone by their skin colour I actually judge people by their character. I thought we were all supposed to be "post-racial" now..it's sad to see folk like Simon21 clinging to the old prejudices of the past.
I guess if I was Simon I would consider "allmymarbles" comment about "ignorant, backswood politicos" as being prejudiced against white working class folk who don't live in big cities
but hey, I forgot, they're on the other side so they can be insulted as much as possible and it gets a pass.
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Ref 358
"Ignoring the distinguished career and credentials of this woman, who has moderated many debates all that is done is a crude attempt to slur her."
I agree. I think it is despicable to spread innuendo and make accusations about Gwen Ifill before the event takes place and without knowing what she is going to ask the candidates. She has never given me the impression of being a partisan journalist or someone focused on making the news instead of just delivering them.
How come Rick Warren's integrity was not questioned before the Saddleback debate?
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"358. At 10:04pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"His or her views on this woamn are entirely predictable."
You don't know me, so how can my views on this "woamn" be "entirely predictable"."
Because your prejudices are .
"Ignoring the distinguished career and credentials of this woman, who has moderated many debates all that is done is a crude attempt to slur her.
"If she was so "distinguished" why did she not tell the panel or the McCain camp about her book at the appropriate time and let the panel decide if there was a conflict on interest ?"
Sorry reading obviously a difficulty here. The information is on her website? What about this fact do you not understand.
And yes she has a distinguished career, do you dispute this?
"She has written a book and this automatically means she will throw all professionalism aside."
"No, she has written a book called "Age Of Obama" in which she lavishes praise on Obama."
Does she? She hasn't completed it has she. How dio you know? HAve you seen the manuscript?
Answer no.
"It is due to be published on the day of the Presidential Inauguration which will give her book maximum exposure (and sales) IF Obama wins. If she was concerned about her "integrity" she would have stepped aside way before this."
Why you have not explained. ? She has written a bookon Obama whihc she has admitted? Where does this compromise her integrity.
How can she alone ensure Obama certainly wins the presidency?
"The basic reason is that people "like this" do not actually have any integrity and cannot be trusted."
"Again with people "like this".!! What are you trying to say ?? Journalists ? Democrats ? It's really hard to discuss something with someone who writes in riddles . Please try and explain yourself..."
Look at Obama and look at Gwen and don't try to pretend t you do not know what they have in common.
Yoiur prejudice is obvious.
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"360. At 10:15pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"But these aren't the real issue. The real issue is prejudice"
"Again, you'll have to do a LOT better at explaining your weird little insinuations . Are you suggesting I'm prejudiced against journalists who show little professional judgment ? "
No it is not their judgement but their physical appearance as if you didn't know.
"Are you suggesting I'm prejudiced against Obama supporters muddying the waters on a very important debate by bringing a financial interest into it ? Yes, indeed. "
"Muddying" the waters is the issue here. You have not substantiated any point and simply sprout assumption as if its fact.
And the real fact is that your cannot beleive people like Obama and Ifels can be people with integrity.
"Am I prejudiced against women (or men ) who with-hold vital information from a panel deciding whether they're the right person for a debate? Yes, again.2
But Ifels didnot withhold any information so this point de does not stand.
Neither does your claim to have mysteriously read the book.
What does stand is the cetral fact that you cannot accept her integrity.
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"359. At 10:06pm on 02 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
353, Simon.
As I said before, a criticism of the moderator puts McCain in the position of claiming bias if Palin does badly.
McCain is in a desperate situation and is looking for any advantage. Given the status of the economy, and the wrong-headedness of choosing an ignorant backwoods politico as his running mate, McCain, at this point in time, has no chance of winning.
A new disaster could change the picture, but time is running short."
It is very desperate stuff. But what is shocking is the prejudice that is being shown.
The moderator is distinguished journalist, with a long career yet she is being accused of being willing to throw all away to get sales for a book (as yet uncompleted) .
It is like some of the material thrown at Obama - he needed white mentors, cannot think for himself, is inherently corrupt.
It is surprisng so much prejudice still lingers.
Not only in the US of course.
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"365. At 11:05pm on 02 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
Hi seanspa, thanks for the heads-up. Now simon21's weird little comments all make sense (if that's the right word). I actually had no idea Ifill was black"
Yeh right of course not. Obama is an inuit incidently
"but even knowing that - she is in the wrong. Unlike people like Simon21 who judge everyone by their skin colour I actually judge people by their character."
Do you? Yet you automatically assume Ifels is corrupt. That is prejudice not judgement.
"I thought we were all supposed to be "post-racial" now..it's sad to see "
Yes it is very sad to see that such bigotry lingers
"I guess if I was Simon I would consider "allmymarbles" comment about "ignorant, backswood politicos" as being prejudiced against white working class folk who don't live in big cities."
Interesting assumption I didn't know all backwoods people were white. Is that true?
"but hey, I forgot, they're on the other side so they can be insulted as much as possible and it gets a pass"
Only if you think all backwoods people are white, and that is fairly obviously not true.
Is it.
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"361. At 10:24pm on 02 Oct 2008, seanspa wrote:
vivaelcid, I'm sure you've worked it out by now, but if you dare to criticize someone happens to be black, Simon accuses you of being a racist. To deny this is futile, as the denial apparently confirms this truth. It's quite pathetic."
Is that so. Hmmm I am not a fan of Robert Mugabe, the interahamwe, Jean Bokassa so that neatly disposes of that , rather feeble argument.
It is sad but much of the criticism levelled at Obama and now this journalist has been fuyeled by prejudice masking up as comment.
It is been quite an eye opener the racial assumptions one thought had been disposed of years ago.
In this case Ifels is a highly regarded and experienced journalist.
However one poster has made the immediate assumption she is corrupt because she is writing a book on Obama.
This book is laudatory, though since no one but her copy editor can have read it how this is known is a mystery - unless it is assumed she and Obama are automatically soulmates because of their colour.
Apparently she will throw the debate before millions, ruin her career, simply to secure better sales.
These assumptions are born of rank prejudice, they can hardly be facts
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Simon, who on here has said that Obama needs white mentors? I missed that one. Who said he is inherently corrupt? I missed that as well. Who said Ifill would deliberately rig the questioning to give Obama a pass?
You may be unaware of this, but in decision making circles it is normal to declare conflicts of interest at the outset. Not because you will inevitably act dishonorably, but simply to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
Why don't you read and understand the concerns, rather than use your prejudice about non-believers to cloud your thinking? You don't have to agree with the concerns, and you clearly don't, but to always say that these concerns are because of race is just plain wrong.
I don't doubt that some, many even, voters will vote against Obama because of his colour. I don't doubt that some, even many, will vote for him because of his colour. But there are people who look at the policies, the track records, the credibility of the candidates, and actually come to different conclusions without race being an issue at all.
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Why are so many people querying whether Sarah Palin is up to the job?
Why the sudden seriousness from an electorate that put a chimp in the White House for four years - and then invited him back for another four?
And it's not as though Bush was an anomaly - Reagan and Ford were also intellectual pigmies, as was a recent VP, Dan Quayle.
So feel free to go ahead an inflict another incoherent idiot on the rest of the world - our expectations are low.
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"372. At 00:03am on 03 Oct 2008, seanspa wrote:
Simon, who on here has said that Obama needs white mentors? I missed that one. Who said he is inherently corrupt? I missed that as well. Who said Ifill would deliberately rig the questioning to give Obama a pass?"
The inferences are clear. And there have been several posters implying Obama can not think for himself but takes all his ideas from white politcos.
Others have even provided links to sites which openly state that he even owed his University break to his colour.
And what exactly is the point being made about the debate if not to imply Ifels is going to behave corruptly?
If the poster thinks she is not, then his point makes no sense.
Does it.
"You may be unaware of this, but in decision making circles it is normal to declare conflicts of interest at the outset. Not because you will inevitably act dishonorably, but simply to avoid the appearance of impropriety. "
She posted the fact she was writing her book on her website. How public can one be?
And I am still unaware of the conflict of interest. What is meant? That she will openly throw the contest to secure book sales?
Is this meant seriously?
If not what is the point, that she shouldn't write a book? She is a political journalist it comes with the territory.
And how does anyone presume to know exactly what she is saying since it is not yet complete?
"Why don't you read and understand the concerns, rather than use your prejudice about non-believers to cloud your thinking? You don't have to agree with the concerns, and you clearly don't, but to always say that these concerns are because of race is just plain wrong."
Are they. I don't beleive so. I have yet to hear a coherent point.
As I say, and you have not contested, the assumption seems to be that this woman can be presumed to be corrupt.
What I want to know is what is the source of this belief?
That she has thrown debates in the past? No.
That she has announced she is going to do so with this one? No.
That she is a paid up member of Obama's campaign team? No
That she is related to Obama or his wife, and has not revealed this? No
So where is the assumption coming from?
"I don't doubt that some, many even, voters will vote against Obama because of his colour. I don't doubt that some, even many, will vote for him because of his colour. But there are people who look at the policies, the track records, the credibility of the candidates, and actually come to different conclusions without race being an issue at all."
Undoubtedly so. And up to recently I would have discounted rascism as a major issue, but I have been shaken by what I have read here, and read from other sources.
One suspects the only thing that has dissapeared about rascism is the use of the word itself.
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369, Simon.
The media would have you believe that our society is riddled with prejudice. To get the truth, divide by ten. Racism sells. Amity does not.
I shudder to think what the foreigner's view of America must be. Would he be surprised to see a mixed marriage couple walking down the street and nobody blinking? Would he be surprised to see a rainbow of employees working side by side? Would he be surprised that my doctor is black?
It is not only the media that rejoice in prejudice. The Republicans, as well, are doing what they can to use it to their advantage. To my mind, those who foment prejudice are worse than those who are prejudiced.
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"It is sad but much of the criticism levelled at Obama and now this journalist has been fuyeled by prejudice masking up as comment."
Exactly what criticism has been "fuyeled" by prejudice ? Give us all one example that wouldn't have been used against a white, brown, yellow or green candidate ?Oh, and btw how does one "mask up as comment?" Sounds an interesting trick. It's a shame that simon21 is so obsessed by race. I see a politician and a journalist but simon only sees colour. I guess he is stuck in the bad old days of judging people only by their skin.
"It is been quite an eye opener the racial assumptions one thought had been disposed of years ago."
That's certainly true. It's time you saw people for what they do, not look down on their skin colour.
"In this case Ifels is a highly regarded and experienced journalist."
Oh that's right. Such people NEVER make mistakes, they're more Gods than human beings. Such faith in journalism would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
"However one poster has made the immediate assumption she is corrupt because she is writing a book on Obama."
No, it isn't because she is writing a book on Obama, it's because she stands to make money on such a book especially if Obama wins the election. Most fair-minded people who assume that such a situation is not a good one for a supposedly "fair" moderator to be in.
"This book is laudatory, though since no one but her copy editor can have read it how this is known is a mystery - unless it is assumed she and Obama are automatically soulmates because of their colour."
How do you know it's "laudatory" if you haven't seen it ? Why are you so obsessed by race? I assume that Obama and Ifill are "soulmates" because they are both extreme liberals but you can only see their skin colour....how sad, how reactionary.
"Apparently she will throw the debate before millions, ruin her career, simply to secure better sales."
She doesn't have to throw the debate she just has to be above suspicion and because of her actions she isn't.
"These assumptions are born of rank prejudice, they can hardly be facts"
Coming from a bigot who only sees people's colour I'm surprised that simon21 has the gall to condemn others for prejudice. As you're such on expert on colour, simon, what colour am I ?
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"But there are people who look at the policies, the track records, the credibility of the candidates, and actually come to different conclusions without race being an issue at all."
Good comment, seanspa. But I'm afraid simon 21 (is that his I.Q ?) falls back on the old "racist" slur
to shut down any discussion he doesn't agree with. In simon's world one just cannot say anything bad about Obama without it being "racist". The leftist Columbia Journalism Review believes that Ifill has a conflict of interest...maybe they're racist too !!Oooh !! Hey, the Rev.Wright had a pop at Obama too, that must mean he is a racist. But thank God for simon, sitting in judgment on all of us..and deciding from on high who is racist and who isn't .....
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270, simon.
Further on bigotry.
If the southern states do not vote for Obama it will be attributed to racism. This may be some truth in this, but the main reason is that they, like the prairie states, are Republican.
If Obama wins it will be because whites voted him in. Blacks make up only 12 or 13 per cent of the population. Moreover, fewer blacks turn out to vote than whites. That might reduce their effective numbers to 10 per cent (I don't know the exact figure).
So when people rant on about racism, Simon, keep in mind that they may be using you.
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Well, I guess we can all thank simon for dragging the sordid subject of race into what had been an intelligent discussion on what constitutes balanced journalism. A classic example of how to shut down any debate you're not happy with .
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Having looked through the far-right hysteria over Ifels it is interesting to note that whenever a prominent black American mentions racial prejudice,in any form, this is automatically discounted.
They are even traduced for raising the issue.
And if they are anything but totally respectful to a white opponent this is put down to them having chip on the shoulder.
If they get upset, then they are too sensitive.
It's quite amazing -especially as the question is never asked are they actually correct? It is just assumed they cannot be.
Apaprently in the US all you have to do is say you are not making a racial point, then it is fair game all the way.
Its like a magic slogan which frees you to exercise your bigotry in full measure.
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"373. At 00:17am on 03 Oct 2008, rsmatthews wrote:
So feel free to go ahead an inflict another incoherent idiot on the rest of the world - our expectations are low."
Well we hardly covered ourselves with glory over Blair and Perscott.
But you largely right. Bush did mark a new low in the US presidency. To do the wrong thing because you beleive it is right through intelligent analysis is one thing.
To blunder around because you are too thick to know what the right course would be is another.
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"Why the sudden seriousness from an electorate that put a chimp in the White House for four years - and then invited him back for another four?"
Wow, I love this kind of deep intellectual comment ! And the originality ! Bush as a chimp !
I've never heard that one before. If this is the level of debate from the Left what chance has society got ?
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"but I have been shaken by what I have read here,"
Oh you poor little lamb ! You really need to get out more, sunshine. Not one single comment on this thread mentioned race until you dragged it out and smeared it all over the thread. Anyone reading this thread (except you obviously) would not know the colour of the people we were discussing. Please point out ONE comment that directly mentioned race....no, not what your imagination thought you read but an actual comment from anyone who used race to attack Ifill or Obama. Until you produce proof then you are just projecting your own obsession with skin colour onto the rest of us. Please don't drag us into your own personal
hang-ups....we're here to talk real politics not your politics of racial dischord.
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376. At 00:39am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"It is sad but much of the criticism levelled at Obama and now this journalist has been fuyeled by prejudice masking up as comment."
"Exactly what criticism has been "fuyeled" by prejudice ? Give us all one example that wouldn't have been used against a white, brown, yellow or green candidate ?Oh, and btw how does one "mask up as comment?" Sounds an interesting trick. It's a shame that simon21 is so obsessed by race. I see a politician and a journalist but simon only sees colour. I guess he is stuck in the bad old days of judging people only by their skin."
Of course you do. One would hardly expect an open admission, would one.
Oh and examples read the postings old son, its not that hard to find - don't ask others to do your research.
"It is been quite an eye opener the racial assumptions one thought had been disposed of years ago."
That's certainly true. It's time you saw people for what they do, not look down on their skin colour."
But I am not making the racial assumptions, am I?
Nice try but no cutie doll.
"In this case Ifels is a highly regarded and experienced journalist."
"Oh that's right. Such people NEVER make mistakes, they're more Gods than human beings. Such faith in journalism would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic."
Again no evidence just abuse. Do you contest the point. No.
What is the mistake exactly? Presumption?
"However one poster has made the immediate assumption she is corrupt because she is writing a book on Obama."
"No, it isn't because she is writing a book on Obama, it's because she stands to make money on such a book especially if Obama wins the election. "
She stands to make money anyway. She also stands to add to her credibility as a journalist.
Both are perfectly legitimate and open activities.
If Obama wins there will be more political journalism as it is a new admin - so presumably every political journalist is compromised - going by these weird values.
Most fair-minded people who assume that such a situation is not a good one for a supposedly "fair" moderator to be in."
Fair as being defined by unfair in this context. Ifels is a woman, so is Palin, maybe Biden should complain?
Ther is no conflict of interest and you have not proved any. Simply stating she might make more sales if Obama wins and therefore she is likely to be corrupt is so ridiculous so as to be prejudicial.
"This book is laudatory, though since no one but her copy editor can have read it how this is known is a mystery - unless it is assumed she and Obama are automatically soulmates because of their colour."
How do you know it's "laudatory" if you haven't seen it ? Why are you so obsessed by race? I assume that Obama and Ifill are "soulmates" because they are both extreme liberals but you can only see their skin colour....how sad, how reactionary.
"Apparently she will throw the debate before millions, ruin her career, simply to secure better sales."
"She doesn't have to throw the debate she just has to be above suspicion and because of her actions she isn't."
But she could not be above suspiscion in your eyes anyway - could she, so the point does not arise.
"These assumptions are born of rank prejudice, they can hardly be facts"
"Coming from a bigot who only sees people's colour I'm surprised that simon21 has the gall to condemn others for prejudice. As you're such on expert on colour, simon, what colour am I ? "
Am I not the one making the bigoted assumptions am I?
Oh and fyi your colour hardly matters does it? Its your prejudices that matter.
Not worked that out?
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378. At 00:56am on 03 Oct 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
270, simon.
Further on bigotry.
If the southern states do not vote for Obama it will be attributed to racism. This may be some truth in this, but the main reason is that they, like the prairie states, are Republican."
yes but remember Johnson's famous comment, and he was right.
"If Obama wins it will be because whites voted him in. Blacks make up only 12 or 13 per cent of the population. Moreover, fewer blacks turn out to vote than whites. That might reduce their effective numbers to 10 per cent (I don't know the exact figure)."
Of course, but it is still a shock to find the depth of prejudice parading around so nakedly.
"So when people rant on about racism, Simon, keep in mind that they may be using you."
I hardly think so. What is interesting is that so many commentators seem to think every time a black journo etc comments on rascism they are somehow being victims or somehow whining.
I note the same is not applied to to other US minorities
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"379. At 01:03am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
Well, I guess we can all thank simon for dragging the sordid subject of race into what had been an intelligent discussion on what constitutes balanced journalism. A classic example of how to shut down any debate you're not happy with ."
Your problem not mine. I am not responsible for your prejudices.
I do not recall implying a credited journalist would throw a public debate in the hope she could effect a presidential election and boost book sales.
The whole idea is too stupid for words. Until you relaise the massive assumption underlying it.
Maybe you should fight them.
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"383. At 01:35am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"but I have been shaken by what I have read here,"
"Oh you poor little lamb ! You really need to get out more, sunshine. Not one single comment on this thread mentioned race until you dragged it out and smeared it all over the thread."
No but the assumption was clear.
" Anyone reading this thread (except you obviously) would not know the colour of the people we were discussing."
Really You speak for everyone do you? The weird thing is you actually beleive what you are saying
You put rascism into the debate by your hysterical denunciations of Gwen Ifels which have been shown to be based on pure prejudice.
"Please point out ONE comment that directly mentioned race....no, not what your imagination thought you read but an actual comment from anyone who used race to attack Ifill or Obama. "
Gosh you got me! Odd I can't think of one comment where someone has ever referred to themselves as a rascist bigot either. That must mean there are none.
According to you.
Wonderful reasoning.
"Until you produce proof then you are just projecting your own obsession with skin colour onto the rest of us. Please don't drag us into your own personal
hang-ups....we're here to talk real politics not your politics of racial dischord."
Speaking for the world again are we? You started the racial discord shall I remind you?
Why do you assume, as you admit, that a distinguished journalist is corrupt?
And please do not give us your childish conspiracy theory that she is going to fix the election, somehow, to sell her book.
And please do not insult everyone's intelligence by pretending you do not know what colour Ifels and Obama are.
."
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Oh no, what's this ? Justin Webb (hardly a Republican) has just posted this on his web page..
"Before I start, I cannot resist a thought about Gwen Ifill and her book.
What were they all thinking? Of course she should not be the moderator. She has written a positive book about the political forces that brought one of the main candidates to the fore and she stands to profit from his elevation. Duh?
For a nation stuffed with "professors" of journalism (again, guys, not a serious academic subject in my book) this really does seem to be an elementary mistake..."
Please tell us simon, does this make Mr.Webb a racist ? If not , why not ?
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"Oh and fyi your colour hardly matters does it? Its your prejudices that matter."
You really have no idea what you're talking about do you. Well, I'm off to rejoin the adult world..good luck with your obsessions..
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Vivaelcid, I did try to warn you.
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"389. At 02:08am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"Oh and fyi your colour hardly matters does it? Its your prejudices that matter."
You really have no idea what you're talking about do you. Well, I'm off to rejoin the adult world..good luck with your obsessions"
Yes do join the adult world you willfind it a strange place I ambetting.
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"388. At 02:06am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
Oh no, what's this ? Justin Webb (hardly a Republican) has just posted this on his web page..
"Before I start, I cannot resist a thought about Gwen Ifill and her book.
What were they all thinking? Of course she should not be the moderator. She has written a positive book about the political forces that brought one of the main candidates to the fore and she stands to profit from his elevation. Duh?"
They were thinking she is a capable journalist and so she has proved to be.
Not everyone has your exteme prejudices Duh!
Changed your tune about the book, not claiming tohave read it now are we?
"For a nation stuffed with "professors" of journalism (again, guys, not a serious academic subject in my book) this really does seem to be an elementary mistake..."
Showing you n know nothing about journaisim
"Please tell us simon, does this make Mr.Webb a racist ? If not , why not ?"
=You have a problem understanding rascism don't you. As I said simply rejecting the word does not remove the prejudice.
Which is all so clear in your case.
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382. At 01:24am on 03 Oct 2008, vivaelcid wrote:
"Why the sudden seriousness from an electorate that put a chimp in the White House for four years - and then invited him back for another four?"
Wow, I love this kind of deep intellectual comment ! And the originality ! Bush as a chimp !
I've never heard that one before. If this is the level of debate from the Left what chance has society got
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Wow YOU gave us the thickest president in history who has led the states back you the middle ages ruined the wealth and power of the states and you want to whine about people calling BUSH A CHIP.
Sorry get real your pathetic.
People dying but hey the left called him a chimp so lets vote his sussesor in.
WOW
SO ELEVATE THE LEVEL OF DEBATE
Are you another GOP supporter that just come on making comments on other people.
IS Sara palin as flip floppy as can be .
is she a vacuous bim.
Why should Bush not be called Chimp (unless your animal friendly and consider him an insult to all chimps).
He looks like Alfred E Numan crossed with a Chimp.
So what If you heard it before .
BUSH IS ONE OF THE DUMBEST DECISIONS AMERICA EVER MADE.
But your offended someone called him a chimp.
Go tell that to the dead.
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382:
"Why the sudden seriousness from an electorate that put a chimp in the White House for four years - and then invited him back for another four?"
Wow, I love this kind of deep intellectual comment ! And the originality! Bush as a chimp! I've never heard that one before. If this is the level of debate from the Left what chance has society got ?
Google Steve Bell, cartoonist for The Guardian.
(or British cartoon archive at www. opal.ukc.ac.uk and http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/series/guardiancommentcartoon) He's the latest in a long and cherished British tradition of political cartoonists.
Goes back a long way . . .And I think it started from both the way he walks and the strong suspicion early on that he leaned towards the Fundamentalist/Creationist/anti-evolution side.
I see Sarah Palin as more of a bad-tempered snapping Peke with glasses than a pitbulll.
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I had not many expectations of this debates; since, that way...i would not be disappointed it....
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