Will it be Friday?
It appears that CBS is firming up what many suspected - that the Obama VP annoucement comes on Friday.
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Comments
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Now "when" has become just as interesting as "who." Does anyone else miss the good-old-days before instant gratification became the norm, and we expected the VP nominee to be announced at the convention?
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It will be to early, the vote in the convention isn't done!! He's tring to out smart the Clinton fox :)
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What a melodrama.
This has been going on for weeks. Are we supposed to be waiting with excitement for this big announcement?
The assumption behind all this coy game playing is the idea that every American spends the day as obsessed with Obama as his cult followers are.
Just name the VP nominee and get it over with. I am fed up with this narcissistic nonsense.
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I wait for the day when two questions wil be asked the candidates:
(1) Do you favor the designation of the America Israel Political Action Committee and like organisations as a lobbies for a foreign country?
(2) Do you agree that your personal salvation as a Christian depends on your aid to the State of Israel?
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Speculating about the exact day and time of the announcement is just a guessing game of relevance to journalists only. I think it is fair to assume that the announcement will take place before the Convention starts, iif nothing else because it would help Obama get some of the traction he lost the past few weeks, but aside from that the issue is almost irrelevant.
What I find interesting is the contrast in the speculation about who Obama's running mate will be, and the absolute lack of interest regarding who McCain may choose. It is hard to reconcile the lack of interest in McCain, and his failure to get donations, with what the polls are telling us. Do political polls reflect reality, or are they a journalistic subterfuge designed to keep the public interested in the upcoming election?
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I still have no idea how well Obama could run
the country - and that's a scary thought - but
he sure is able to play the political game with
a flourish.
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There is this caveat in the CBS "announcement": (This plan could change, of course.)
Perhaps super-delegates are wishing they had not made their choice known so soon or so publicly - there could have been a genuine reconsideration of the merits of the two candidates. Since the polls and 'poll of polls' shows the Obama lead to be completely evaporated, the initial choice of "hope and change" may not resonate with the electorate after all.
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XM (#4), is your favorite play Waiting for Godot?
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Justin:
You giddiness over the Obama VP announcement is shameful.
Why not man up and cover the new Zogby poll that has McCain ahead of Obama by five points and shows Americans trustMcCain with the economy 49% to Obama's 40%?
http://news.yahoo.com/story/nm/20080820/ts_nm/usa_poll_politics_dc;_ylt=Am1ZdCHkvFZ2nTB.Jg8UM5Vg.3QA
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This has turned into the drama of a grade B movie. At this point I don't care who the running mate is, so long as it isn't Clinton.
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#8 Gary, you nailed her. I just read her post and was trying to determine if it even warranted an answer,.. nah,.. other that being gone for the last four days, I've read her post for months, and she has a singularity in thinking. Boxed in and obsessed in every instance with Israel and Palistine.
wait for the world
and the world waits with you
not for you
people
head that
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How about a more interesting topic, Justin?
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D_C, are you saying that Hillary(ous) may stage a come back, she did only suspend her campaign and no one is held to vote till cast at the convention. Nah, not possible, is it?
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May 21st, 2008 Zogby poll
Three months with two to go, what a difference.
ohmmmmmmmm
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Bye, folks. I am sitting this one out until after the VP is chosen.
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Re: #2. Obama's campaign did say by the end of the week for the announcement. If Clinton were a 'fox' in any sense of the word, she would not have fumbled away the nomination. Here's hoping Obama stays smart and says no to a wolf in Veep's clothing.
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#5 #8
One will wait a very long time for Americans to wake up.
If one can judge by one of our frequent posters, there is a large group who will vote reactively, according to their indoctrination
and only seek reasons to justify the choice that has already been dictated by their indoctrination.
However, one fundamentalist from Galveston indicates that he and his wife have different views as between the candidates.
Presumably, in this election, we cannot predict the same level of manipulated views as occurred before with the disastrous re-election of Bush.
Let us hope so.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ref #17
You seem to be suffering from it. All your posts seem to reflect Republicans are bad, Israel is bad.
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Overgeneralization is to be avoided.
Let us seek fundamentalists who can exercise personal, rather than manipulated, judgement-
as did the couple from Galveston.
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Q: how far do you think McCain / Obama are prepared to go, to get the November election in the bag?!
After all, once they are in, it is four years of their 'good' policies....so surely any means justifies the end, no?!
And when it comes down to it, (barring totally weird voting patterns), there are only a handful of states that matter.
And in those states, it will be the voters sitting on their hands that might swing it one way or the other.
And all this can probably be calculated now.... by both sides.
Either way, its going to be tight.
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I just love Abramoff's hat!
;-)
ed
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I think it's plausible that the text message will go out at the same time as the official press release, probably early on Friday morning. When people switch on their phones, they will have it.
If it is Hillary, I can just imagine thousands of phones being thrown against the walls in disgust!
It's possible that the contender is a name not mentioned recently by the political hacks. We were promised a shock, so it would be something of an anti-climax if it is indeed Biden, though he is a safe and solid pick.
His ideal running mate would be John McCain himself. So the next best alternative is Chuck Hagel. Mike Bloomberg is also another dark horse or perhaps Bill or Ben Nelson.
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Quick-draw John
Welcome to the wild west!;-)
ed
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What should be evident to everyone by now is that elections are not won based on the qualifications of a candidate, but because of the effectiveness of their campaign teams.
It really doesn't matter who they select as running mates, or what their political platforms are, or how disastrous our domestic and foreign policies have been the last 7.5 years; the candidate with the best campaign team will win.
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#24, this is out of "Blazing Saddles"
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#25, Dominick, isn't it a shame that the world will
not grant us a convenient respite so that our politics
can go on as usual?
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#23. Cyril_Croydon: "If it is Hillary, I can just imagine thousands of phones being thrown against the walls in disgust!" And millions more celebrating that the much vaunted 'dream team' has actually come to pass. If he really wants to win, there is no other choice.
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having a good team is important but you also need help from the media. McCain has made so many gaffes that have gone unreported like confusing Sunni and Shia and not realising that Czechoslovakia no longer exists. This is a man who claims to be a foreign policy expert.
We mustn't forget that Viagra moment with the 8 second pause. If Obama had done something similar, he would have been made a laughing stock.
I hope the Obama campaign runs lots of ads featuring these gaffes. The media is not going to help them
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(25) thanks! That's kinda what i thought.
And which campaign team 'has' most of the media?
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#22
Is an interesting clip!
_____________________________
I would ask those who voted for Bush four years ago?
Would you do it again?
If so, for what reason?
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G'nR,
Sure nuff!;-)
ed
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Ref 27
Isolationism for a country that depends largely on the global economy and on borrowing from foreign creditors is an impossibility, but we must learn to consider the consequences of our actions when we attack and invade nations that were not a threat to us and never did anything against us, or when we make commitments of financial, political and military support to countries that we are, clearly, unable to meet.
Most importantly, we must reconcile our aversion to pay taxes with the reality that neither the services we get nor our "adventures" overseas are free endeavors. Our country is going broke, we are drowning in a sea of debt, our industry and infrastructure are collapsing, and the best our candidates can do to address those concerns is talk about Paris Hilton! The truth is that neither Obama nor McCain have what it takes to get our country out of the mess we are in. We need a visionary and powerful leader, like FDR, not lightweights who rely on empty promises, soundbites and gimmicks to win an election.
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#8, 11
Guys,
Lets be fair to Xie, she has uncovered the vast Zionist conspiracy. I am half Jewish (the half that counts) and as such I can confirm that we all get together every other Thursday evening. I can't tell you where but it is a very big room with lots of 'facilities' so we can all be comfortable.
George Bush, that was us. I remember voting at that meeting. Iraq, us too. I distinctly recall deciding to oppress the Palestinians. We messed up Hillary just for sh. . s and giggles.
The sub prime mortgage crisis? Sorry, we had too much to drink that night.
I could tell you who we chose as Veep options, but they'd ban me from the next 3 meetings. And just wait till you see what we're going to do to the French. LMAO.
Shalom.
Sam
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A right Rogues Gallery!
A picture is worth a thousand words, all right!GOP UNVEILS ITS CONVENTION STARS
God help us (please)
ed
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What??????? thought the announcement came today on BBC blog,,,says right there @ 1:47 GMT, "the vice presidential candidates WILL BE...what took CBS so long?
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Hello. #31 Xing_Ming
Yes I would vopte for GW today if he was running against BHO , JM or JK.
For as bad as it is for you, it is actually your perception. Better, yes it could be. More communication, I agree. But the overall effect of GW has brought us closer to the Global Village you seek, but don't wish to do the grunt work for.
The battles and loses, sad and costly, were needed to get desired results and changes. The truely ignorant don't "talk" to us, they don't want the twenty-first century that we envision, so they fight us. By doing so, the tech result and education via exposure make our end result possible.
Just in eight years, the education and exposure to the west has spred desire for the material world, the tech phones and laptops, crying, kicking and fighting, GW has made inroads bringing the Middle East into the twentyfirst century.
It is a chess game, we are all pieces and the board is the world. No matter how great the think tank, mistakes happen.
Just who do you want playing the pieces? And look deep into thier being, as they can play the otherway, and slavery and slaughter for us, are just a vote away!
Xing_Ming, welcome to the world stage.
pawn to queen three
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#8 #11 #34
Sam's confesion comes a little late, since more reliable reports have long been public.
Mearsheimer and Walt document the degree of control exercised by AIPAC and its arranged funding over the Congressmen. Does anybody want the URL for the report?
The Christian Science Monitor (csmonitor.org) has an article called "Neocon 101" that gives a fair summary of what they are about.
I suppose everybody knows about the leading NeoCons Richard Perle, William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, their very special financial activities and how they organized the Iraq war as part of their "Plan for the New American Century".
AIPAC is a story by itself and anyone interested should check the internet, You will also find that certain AIPAC officials had contacts with US military officers investigated for spying for Israel
We know about the MOSSAD teams that set up to photograph the Twin Towers attack (see "Urban Moving Systems") but somehow did not give the USA any useful leads except to say "the Palestinians did it".
But nowhere (except possibly for some bombings within the USA by the JDL) do we see evidence of a consipiracy.
Rather, all the identified lines lead directly to Israel.
So, Sam is overstepping her evidence when she speaks of a "conspiracy".
However, exerting political influence, especially during elections, is AIPAC's main reason for existence so we ought to pay a little more attention to it-
at least, until it is identified as a lobby for a foreign power.
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#37
Thank you for your response.
It was pretty much what I had expected, but I wanted to make sure.
You have absorbed the version of reality that you were supposed to absorb and now repeat it as your own thought.
The real question is how many other Americans will respond in a similar fashion.
I have seen this repeated, classically, in the USA's Georgia, where some are still swearing that WMD will be found, etc.
With an honest response like that, understanding can be furthered!
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Biden is Favorite
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According to another article on this same site, Friday isn't the Day: "The BBC's Justin Webb says Mr Obama could announce his decision as early as Thursday."
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#34, Sam, surely you are being too modest.
I know for a fact that the "Chosen People" are
also responsible for Global Warming, Borat's
"War of Terror" by Premier Bush, our trade
deficit, the fact that we can't make a car as
good as a Toyota Corolla, the energy crisis
(because Israel obviously sits on a huge pool
of oil, and, darn them, they are just waiting until
the price reaches $220/bbl to tell us), the loss
of two space shuttles, the fact that Madonna
got pregnant, mad cow disease, Republicans,
Democrats, liberals, neocons, my bad luck in Vegas, Bin Laden
and the Saudis, inflation, deflation, the federal
deficit, all wars (to quote Mel Gibson while
he was inebriated), red traffic lights, all terrorist
attacks against American citizens, and some
weird form of music involving a violin and
rooftops.
And, dare I mention that Dick Cheney is
a crypto-Jew? In fact, regardless of what they
say, all Texans are Jews, crypto or otherwise.
Don't let them lead you to believe otherwise!
Xie_Ming, be careful of Sam, because even though he
is only "half-Jewish", he can still stick a pin
through a cabbage patch doll with one of his
arms, and cause you to become deathly ill.
regards...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I saw a couple of comments about Israel and the Palestinians and as to who would support what, and justice, etc.
Why does everyone forget the politics? What happens in that area will be determined by what is most beneficial to the West. If Israel becomes a liability, that is good news for the Palestines. If it is felt that Israel is important to furthering the aims of the West - bad luck, Palestinians.
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Oh, I got here late or sumptin'.
I am a New York 'press pretending arian', converted into a Texan Jew, being one of many, I converted into a Southern Baptist to throw a 'bone in the werks' as it were and to create my secret Identity.
As you know, Premier Bush and the education Czar, Laura just bought a house here in Dallas. This is the reason the land values here are stabilized, The New Republic of Texas is soon to launch its financial takeover of.... hmm, sorry that is a secret.
You guys, almost had me divuldge the plan to release all of Israels power and might into ... oh , you are good.
Next, you'll want me to divulge the food for oil program and the ties between the French and Germans... have I said to much?
shhhh, i'm huntin' wabbits
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Xing_Ming
So sad for you, your derision of thought and accomplishment. Tsk, tsk.
So, you see that the Israeli supressive forces are binding the mind into diatrib of digested thought instilled throught media outlets, and only the Palistians know the truth!! Bravo
silly gurl, tricks are for kids
namaste
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#37
The usual line is "and we control the weather".
Which puts the evangelicals back at ease.
Spying, etc., doesn't exist-
All those other things don't happen-
Otherwise we would suffer cognitive dissonance
and that would be uncomfortable.
so, we only read and want to know what is comfortable.
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Xing_Ming
So sad for you, your derision and mockery of thought and accomplishment.
Evidently you see that the Israeli supressive forces are binding the mind into diatrib of digested thought instilled through the media outlets, and only the Palistians know the truth!!
silly girl
tricks are for kids
peace
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Xie_Ming, it must have been that blue pill
that I took... everything seems so normal.
You can read more about it here
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If Obama wants to beat John McCain, he has to choose someone who will complement his image of youth, integrity and change. Caroline Kennedy was a good choice for the VP search person; had she had some governing experience, she would have made a good VP herself.
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In reply to #38, Xie_Ming :
Wow, you backed up your bias with sources. Let us analyze your sources.
You mean the paper by Mearsheimer and Walt, which described by Rep. Eliot Engel, "really deserves the contempt of the American people," and that it amounts to "the same old anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist drivel."
The same paper that was derided by other leading Harvard scholar's as being poor scholarship, belligerent, and one sided.
The ADL says it is an "amateurish and biased critique of Israel, American Jews, and American policy. It addresses in a perfunctory and all-knowing fashion some of the most important and complicated issues surrounding the Middle East conflict. Nowhere in evidence is a sense of complexity, balance, an examination of the variety of factors that cause an event, or of putting individual comments in perspective – all the appropriate tools for a serious piece of scholarship or journalism."
http://www.adl.org/Israel/mearsheimer_walt.asp
Even NOAM CHOMSKY says "But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion."
Are you implying that Neocon's are Jewish? Some are, and some aren't. I think the following link is a more balanced view of Neocon's.
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/History_of_Neoconservativism
As for Mossad in the US tracking down terrorists... I'm glad somebody's government was on the job, because the US was obviously not able to handle it.
AIPAC? America's Pro-Israel Lobby! So? There is a Pro-China lobby, a Pro-[insert nation here] lobby and the...
[queue drum roll]
America's Founding Peoples Political Action Committee
What sinister influence might they be purchasing?
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the truth be told, it was Charles Schulz.
good night ya'll
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One last thought, Xie_Ming.
If you are wrong, then what you are doing is similar to the pre-WWII anti-Semites who invented and disseminated the propaganda that eventually enabled 10 million people to be systematically exterminated.
I would find it disturbing to share any shred of a belief system with Don Black.
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Frigid,
And all registered as agents of foreign states...The Project for a New American Century was a very real thing (until it apparently went underground...)...As to criticism of Mearsheimer and Walt, there is at least as much praise for their work as condemnation (from the usual suspects).Whatever! The simple fact is that the unquestioning and apparently unconditional support of the rogue state known as Israel lies at the heart of the bulk of "anti-Americanism" in the rest of the world. The USA vetoes any UN resolution requiring moral or ethical behaviour from Israel, and Israel ignores any resolution which actually gets passed. The US continues to give more aid to Israel than any other recipient, and participates in the boycott of the democratically elected Palestinian representatives, while Israel imprisons almost one half of the elected Hamas officials.
AIPAC, whatever we may think of it, has indeed been very effective, and many honest justice-loving Jews find it deeply embarrassing.The facts of the situation can be found by anyone actually interested, and here is one place to start.
In short, Israel daily continues building and expanding illegal settlements on stolen land, holding millions of Palestinians in shrinking open-air prisons, brutalising them at will, and enjoying the (im)moral and financial support of American taxpayers.
AIPAC should get some sort of award for its success!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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I don't know how you all manage to get so off topic ... However, as it is now 7.30ET, I guess we can assume that no announcement is being made today.
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In reply to #54, Ed Iglehart:
Ed, when you say "rogue state known as Israel" you too show no basis of objectivity. To be a judge of something, you must be capable of impartiality. Who has declared them a rogue state?
And, when you say, "...lies at the heart of the bulk of "anti-Americanism" in the rest of the world." If I were in America's shoes having loyally invested so much in helping Israel all these years, the world might try to view that loyalty with more understanding. What do you do when a friend (rightly or wrongly) is getting pummeled by a horde of bullies? Do you walk away, or hand him over? What happened to Kuwait when the US did not react strongly enough against Saddam's breast beating? Can you imagine what might happen in Israel if the US reacted with any indifference?
If America starts to shape its foreign policy based on beauty pageant rules, then I think the propagandists win. We shall see how well capitulation and pandering to threats of force and terrorism works for Spain.
Being condemned at the UN has been the history of the state of Israel from May 14 1948 when the surrounding Arab states refused to accept the UN plan for Israeli independence. The UN is a purely political contrivance, which frankly has failed recently to achieve its lofty noble goals. It's failed due to internal corruption which undermine its very resolutions. It's failed because it's resolutions can only be enforced by states that honorably agree to abide by them. It requires "a gentleman's agreement", when there are no gentlemen present.
Israel would say that they have offered through various peace treaties the means to comply with Res. 237 and 446, but due to continued escalation of aggression (both by Palestinian and external hostile states) by those who refuse to accept the continued existence of the state of Israel.
I truly feel the plight of the Palestinians, but they continue to be diverted from their goals by external agents who seek to hurt, kill, and maim Israeli's. The Palestinians are divided between those who are consumed by their hatred, and those who are struggling to set aside their hate to try coexistence. So, far, hatred has prevailed. This propaganda war has also succeeded in pulling you and I into that battle.
As for the UNSC resolutions, how many have condemned Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, and many others for their actions and support of extremism within Israel? Being objective means you need to try to see things from the Israeli point of view. The UN to Israel is like an abusive father who has never had a kind word since their birth. They've learned to ignore the shouting.
Anyway, concerning AIPAC, I would expect something more profound than, "However, exerting political influence, especially during elections, is AIPAC's main reason for existence so we ought to pay a little more attention to it..." Really? A political action committee trying to exert political influence? How strange! Concerning foreign meddling in America's internal politics, what do we call George Soros? What do we call the Citgo subsidy program?
Personally, I think all PAC's are a bad idea and only encourage an unlimited amount of influence money to further corrupt the Americans political system.
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ref #54
Lets turn it around for a second. How about the U.N unconditional support for arab nations in the Middle East when they are against Israel.
Does the U.N have a special person asigned to ddetail human rights abuses from any other state but Israel.
The U.S takes the hard moral stand against the corrupt, anti Israeli bueracracy of the U.N. This was emplified by the terrorist appeasing of Kofi Annan's leadership.
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Frigid,
Help the Palestinians, who are the ones being pummelled by the bully! Try reading the "plan", which was rejected by the majority of the residents of the area concerned, and then IMPOSED against the will of the indigenous people. Of course, it never came to pass, due to proto-Israeli terrorist aggression under "Plan Dalet" prior to Israeli UDIThe ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis is almost five to one, and for children, it's almost eight to one, and trending higher.From your comments, it's clear you have swallowed the Israeli Kool-Ade, but we must live in hope, Please try reading some of the background material
provided.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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56. At 12:41pm on 21 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
In reply to #54, Ed Iglehart:
Ed, when you say "rogue state known as Israel" you too show no basis of objectivity. To be a judge of something, you must be capable of impartiality. Who has declared them a rogue state?
And, when you say, "...lies at the heart of the bulk of "anti-Americanism" in the rest of the world." If I were in America's shoes having loyally invested so much in helping Israel all these years, the world might try to view that loyalty with more understanding. What do you do when a friend (rightly or wrongly) is getting pummeled by a horde of bullies? Do you walk away, or hand him over? What happened to Kuwait when the US did not react strongly enough against Saddam's breast beating? Can you imagine what might happen in Israel if the US reacted with any indifference?"
Is that so.
Can you even begin to understand that the issue here is Israel's treatment of the 4 m illion Palesitinians.
And why the US condones and assists this. Why, a country that howls about human rights and freedom thinks it alright for 4 million people to live under vicious occupation?
More importantly how do you justify your own view? How do you justify the oppressionof four million human beings?
By saying things are worse in Darfur? By saying its OK the Chinese do worse? By saying they somehow "deserve" oppression?
What moral corruption is here.
For most of the world the US hatred for the Palestinians is a genuine mystery - they are a small ethnic group, miles away from the US, have never (unlike Germany and Japan) fought a war with the US, they have no oil, all they want is their freedom.
They are not saints, but they are human beings and it is odd how the US seems to treat them worse then it treats practically any other country, such as Russia or even North Korea.
The only rational explanation for this visceral loathing must lie in the guilt the US feels over the treatment of its own native peoples. It sees the Palestinians as a nation of "Indians" (native Americans) and we all know what general Sherman, President Jackson etc said about those.
Of course the other explanation is that the Palestinians are semites where the vast mass of Israelis proudly proclaim their European heritage. It is noticeable how quick US -Israeli appeasers point out the Palestinians are "arabs" - as if that justified killing their children.
The people of Darfur are black, but no one would hopefully say that justifies the present atrocities - even given the fact that they support a number of resistance groups.
When finally Israel relinquishes its fast declining jewish identity and becomes a homeland for all its citizens, the US will owe the Palestinians a vast apology, similar to the one it gave Nelson Mandela for condoning Apartheid
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I find our Israeli-Palestinian policy unacceptable, from the justifications used to create what we know today as the State of Israel, to our tacit endorsement of Zionist expansionism and our overt antipathy towards the Muslim community.
I have nothing against the Jewish people, in fact, I admire their history, culture, and intellectual acumen, but I object to the principle of Zionism.
Contrary to what most of my fellow Americans believe Israel is not an innocent and impotent victim surrounded by radical superpowers. Israel has the most powerful and disciplined military in the Middle East, and among the most powerful in the world.
There is no legal or moral justification for the displacement of Palestinians to find room for the tens of thousands of European Jews that have migrated to Israel since its creation. It is time for the USA to reconsider its position on this issue and apply pressure - political and economic - to end what can only be categorized as a crime against humanity.
In my opinion, terms such as rogue nations and enemy combatants are blatant and cynical attempts to justify untenable positions designed to achieve our geopolitical and religious goals. The same goes for our tendency to call anyone who objects to our presence in their countries or who does not support our interests a terrorist. If our objective is global domination we should have the courage to classify as such, otherwise we need to do a lot of soul searching and before we continue with policies that the entire world considers objectionable.
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58. At 1:13pm on 21 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
The ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis is almost five to one, and for children, it's almost eight to one, and trending higher."
I have often wondered what it is the IDF has against Palestinian children. How does a military force from a prosperous country, well educated, justify in this day and age killing women and children so often and so frequently.
And why does the US or indeed any human being support this?
Everyday there is practically a new atrocity from killing to prevention of travel (the fulbright fiasco comes to mind) yet the US just looks on and applauds.
Curiously both countries seem to think the worse you treat a population the more it will love you.
One would have thought a glance at recent russian history proved the lie to that.
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McCain calls lobbyists "Birds of Prey"
He's like a revivalist preacher - he welcomes them into his flock on the promise that they end their past ways and never revert again...but he's quite happy to take advantage of their vast experience in raising finance from interest groups, just as long as it all accrues to the benefit of his campaign...Irony anyone?
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#61
Certain clarifications, Simon:
The Palestinians, diaspora Jews and Syrians are all of the same blood- different from everyone else. So, the hate for the "Arabs" cannot be racial.
If you read the daily reports of atrocities (from the Israeli sites already mentioned) you will see that you are correct concerning the willful killing and vicious oppression of the Palestinians.
Outside of the USA, most of the World, and most especially the Muslim world, are agonizingly aware of what is being done to the Palestinians.
The USA, rightly, is identified as a co-actor with Israel in this continuing crime.
The two major sources for the involvement of the USA are :
(1) AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobbies funding US Congressmen
(2) those evangelicals who are convinced that their personal salvation lies in fostering the advancement of Israel.
Mearsheimer and Walt are two very respected academics. By daring to bring the facts before the American public, they received the predictable reaction from the usual sources, so evident here.
The importance of the evangelicals to this Israeli effort is highlighted by the gift of a very expensive Learjet by the government of Israel to the American evangelist, Jerry Falwell.
The Nazi-like persecution of the Palestinians is founded on a religio/ethnic ideology of hate, which thoroughly permeates the Israeli government.
Thus, the involvement of AIPAC and like-organizations in the American elections should be a matter of some scrutiny.
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ref #61
Actually that work was debunked by several scholars included fellow Harvard Professor Alan Dershorwitxz who has written several books on Israel.
But you and Ed and most of the Arab world seem to excuse the terrorism against Israel.
So let me ask you this why should we support people who danced in the streets after 9/11?
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Ref 62
McCain's fight to reduce or eliminate the influence of lobbyists in US government affairs, while admirable, would have a lot more credibility if renowned lobbyists such as Rick Davis, Charles Black, Mark McKinnon and Vicki Iseman were not prominent members of his presidential campaign team.
However, in fairness to him, it is not unusual for politicians of both parties to say one thing and do something entirely different.
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"63. At 3:12pm on 21 Aug 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:
#61
Certain clarifications, Simon:
The Palestinians, diaspora Jews and Syrians are all of the same blood- different from everyone else. So, the hate for the "Arabs" cannot be racial."
It can be if the person uses it that way and that is the way it is often used, especailly by Israelis and their supporters.
Jews are not a race, but the word has been used that way.
But you are right the Palestinians are of course largely converted jews. It is amazing how many people do not know this and will even say that jews do not convert.
Whiic sort of makes you wonder how christianity got started
And, of course, since judaism is a religion the person professing it does not have to come from the ME, any more than all moslems come from Medina.
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#64
MOSSAD agents who (as "Urban Moving
Systems") set up and photographed 9/11
danced on the roof and gave each other high fives as the buildings came down.
They then told the police: "The Palestinians did it".
There are many vectors at work during American elections.
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In this topic I am ignorant, so much so I had to look up zionism. I have read articles and stories of visions, read Wikipedia and Worldbook, and through it all I've noticed bias on both sides and still don't see a solution.
My observation as an outsider with limited real knowlege (none), here is what I see:
Israel has a population of 7 million (aprox. but not all jews) now and was a part of Palistine (an area, not a nation?) till after WWI when the British Mandate of Palestine (I note this as 'not' American) seperated a piece of land for a Jewish state in 1920.
I'll take ya'lls word that currently 4 million Palestians live in the State of Palestine, as what I've read states about 10 million live in the area.
I find History saying the area was up for grabs for each conquorer, changing hands every five hundred to one thousand years or less, and even that the Qur'an defines it as the home of the Jews.
That said, conclusion is inbred hatred (taught by both sides to thier children), Israel has reconized the Palestian States soverignity, but when it does, it gets attacked, so covers the Palestian State. the battle has raged since its modern inception.
The Bible and Qur'an both put the Jews there, and Palistine needs to grow with them, cause they ain't leaving. The problem is the teaching and change has not started towards the good yet, to the contrary, suicide bombers and missles have made it worse.
I'd say the choice of war resides in the people there. Reminds me of White and Blacks fighting the Black and Whites in an old Star Trek tv show, makes no sense other than inbred hatred.
padwar in waiting
peace
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#67 Xie_Ming
Can we see these pictures, they should be available, I mean the pictures of the Mossad movers dancing and high fiving. Whew, that would freak me out. Is there a site for them, or just a rumor like 'he said, she said, so it's true.'
See, I can't think twenty Saudis/other would work for the Israelis, follow thier schedule and wait for them to leave the building and set up cameras.
You sure the Israelis didn't put a bomb on every floor and actually cause the collapse?
By 'police', you mean the USA, boils down to who you hate by who taught you, and I must be quilty of the same, because I still don't see it your way.
Sorry, because I am trying. I will say I live a privalged life, short stink in the service, five kids all grown and alive, no bombs at home and my big problem is back taxes, the point is I can invision thier situation, but not to the point of actually being in it.
pray and pray
some more
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Hey did I hear something about a meeting of Jewish people every Thursday ? Should I bring a covered dish? Sounds Fun
One thing I do know is that the food will be fabulous .
If you have ever been to Texas and think they are Jewish your smoking somethng that is ilegal in most countries .
Chicken fried steak should never be confused with Chicken soup !
Shalom ya' all
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Doug,
Fair enough. Nothing wrong with Jews having a homeland in Palestine. The problem is the method by which they created their ethnically defined state - by expelling and dispossessing the bulk of the majority Arab native population - and the continued exclusion and oppression of that Arab majority.
Only a radical fringe denies the Holocaust (though detail is disputed), but far too many otherwise sensible folk are in denial of al Nakba.
Until the reality of the injustice done to the native Arab Palestinian people is recognised and some form of restitution undertaken, there is little hope of peace. I commend This to you, and, as before, this general view with sources
Peace to all ()
ed
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P.S. Dershowitz has been debunked plenty of times himself.
;-)
ed
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7574409.stm
oil prices up (again) because america cannot give it up with this pathetic waste of money called a missile defence system.
No one wants it , but ruining 20 years of progress and turning the clocks back to the cold war(at least we knew who the enemy was, thinking?) are worth while if you care nothing for your people MR Mc Crime
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I'm still looking!
"If you are so sure that ' Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history', I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :
--When was it founded and by whom?
--What were its borders?
--What was its capital?
--What were its major cities?
--What constituted the basis of its economy?
--What was its form of government?
--What was the language of the country of Palestine ?
--What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?
--What was the name of its currency?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat? Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
You are lamenting the 'low sinking' of a 'once proud' nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that 'nation' proud and what was it so proud of?
And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call 'Palestinians' are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?
I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day 'Palestinians' to the Biblical Philistines: substituting ?etymology for history won't work here. The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel ; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it .’the Palestinian people' and installed it in Gaza , Judea, and Samaria . How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the 'West Bank' and Gaza , respectively?
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so called 'Palestinians' have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel , and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation' -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East . Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 60 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel 's ancient sovereignty over Gaza , Judea, and Samaria . That will mark the end of the Palestinian people.
What are you saying again was its beginning?
--Yashiko Sagamori
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#69
To get the details on the MOSSAD Israelis dancing on the roof and giving each other high fives, try Google:
9/11 + "Urban Moving Systems" + MOSSAD + Twin Towers + "white van"
If that doesn't work for you, I will look up their names and you can add them to your search.
If you are unaware of the incident, it will be a good way to start finding out.
Yes, it was the police who stopped the van after an APB by the FBI. Whether the Bridge police, the New Jersey state, etc., I do not recall at the moment.
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#69
Ed, there are several aspects to the story.
There is NO evidence that the Israelis actively were involved in blowing up the Towers.
There were three MOSSAD teams within the USA who were watching the terrorist groups.
One group (the "Urban Moving Systems" group) knew enough to have their cameras set up across from the Towers to photograph the event.
When the Towers came down, they danced and gave each other "high-fives". There were some witnesses. One woman called the police.
It is very good that you are making the considerable effort to find out things for yourself, and I wish you well!
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ref #67 and 71
#67By your most recent statement you have disqualfied yourself from serious discussion.
If you believe the NBaka theory you would believe the Palestinians actually owned the land. The majority was bought by Israelis and the majority of the rest were owned by absentee owners mostly from Egypt.
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Ed, I'm working through the information you recomended, got a question. Hasn't this been tried, giving back the Gaza or the Golan Heights only to have Palestians lob missles into Israel settlements?
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Doug law Jerkin and all.
lets get this straight.
If I were to make light harted jokes about Nazi's in the death camps, you would not be offended.
You make jokes here at Xie for pointing out some very valid points,some others you may disagree with.
But it is Xie that is showing concern for peoples lives, not you.
Jewish conspiracies are not worth going on about , most do not exist.
But look at your responses.
Have you accepted what th UN has- that Israel and Palistinians are both at fault but that the Israelis respond with (whats that word condi and bush use)" dispraportionate force".
They lost a few soldiers and invaded a country.
Now if that were Russia you would be up in arms.
So lay off Xie.
You are making it look more like there is a conspiracy.
maybe the polite Jews I talk to are different, they accept that Israel has no reason to hold it's head up high.(some even left because they thought it such Bull).
I ,( ed and probably Xie ), are not saying we wish the situation to be reversed , the jews to be put in refugee camps etc.
We are saying that enough is enough and the real suffering today should out weigh any historical suffering Your people may have suffered.
But in response you think it funny to joke about irrelevent rubbish nothing to do with the huge amount of suffering caused directly by israel to the people of pallistine.
And you think you are somehow OK in this because after all you are supporting the jewish side of the argument (though it is not jewish just blind).
"sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine"
doug you say once a thief always a thief.
so why not here?
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Incidentally, the latest item involves a girl who videoed an Israeli soldier shooting a Palestinian prisoner who had his hands tied.
As we know, photographs of such incidents can cause problems.
The girl's father was arrested for three weeks.
It took a lot of legal fees to get him released.
There are many Israeli organizations trying to protect the Palestinians from such abuse, but they must work through the courts, because the Israeli government is controlled by religio-ethnic fanatics.
Here is the one with the recent report:
[Personal details removed by Moderator]
The USA is supporting this sort of oppression, as well as the boa-constrictor operation against Gaza.
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when was the cherokee nation formed.
what was it's currency
who was their leader
but they still existed
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Thanks Xie_Ming
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I wish there were another site for those obsessed with debating the pros and cons of zionism.
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ref #61
Actually that work was debunked by several scholars included fellow Harvard Professor Alan Dershorwitxz who has written several books on Israel.
You are aware Alan Dershowitz is seen as little more than a joke these days, rather like the pet scholars the communists used to use.
He cannot justify occupation of 4 million people, nobody can.
"But you and Ed and most of the Arab world seem to excuse the terrorism against Israel."
Nothing justifies the oppression of 4 million men women children and babies. Nothing sorry. Unless you beleive 5 month old babies are "terorrists" because they are palestinians?
So let me ask you this why should we support people who danced in the streets after 9/11?
Let me ask you, why you should want to support the oppression of th. their children?
Do you think supplying bombs fletchette shells etc to their enemies will make them love you?
Like most Israeli-appeasers you have no answer to the question - nothing justified apartheid, nothing justified Russia's continued control of Eastern Europe and nothing justifies Israel's foul conduct towards the whole Palestinian people.
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Homeless? Give Quick-Draw John a call! He's got so many he cain't remember ... Actually, it's seven.
And he wants yet another one, the White House!Salaam, etc.
ed
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78. At 5:02pm on 21 Aug 2008, DougTexan wrote:
Ed, I'm working through the information you recomended, got a question. Hasn't this been tried, giving back the Gaza or the Golan Heights only to have Palestians lob missles into Israel settlements?
This is simplistic. The Palestinians have been oppressed for over 60 years. Nearly every family has lost someone. The injured and the wounded are legion.
Children have been prevented from going to school, people have been denied medicne, schoolgirls, old men have been shot in the back, elderly women have been beaten with baseball bats
DO you seriously expect a people subject to this sort of atrocious behaviour to simply all forget their grievances and sing the praises of the people who did this to them? Overnight?
Certainly ending the occupation (and complete ending) is a needed first step, but Israel needs to offer the Palestinians (along with the US and Britain) vast reparations and a national apology.
Every day this revolting situation prevails, more die and more suffer, yet the appeasement continues - fortunately the tide is turing and Israel now has fewer and fewer appeasers, but why should the situation continue a day longer then necessary?
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The first I found was this a informative shot but limited on video.
My second spot has video. The insuing article and links add more to the finding of the real question: How did they know about the attack, and why did our 'friend' Israel let it happen?
Thanks Ming, now I question differently!
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77. At 4:59pm on 21 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #67 and 71
#67By your most recent statement you have disqualfied yourself from serious discussion."
But claiming Palestinian occupation is justified due to dancing is sensible? By your remarks you do Israel and its cause no good.
"If you believe the NBaka theory you would believe the Palestinians actually owned the land. The majority was bought by Israelis and the majority of the rest were owned by absentee owners mostly from Egypt."
And so what by this argument? The Palestinians do not actually exist. They are all ghosts? This children who are starved are all fantasies of someone's imagination?
And once agaion how does any of this justify occupying 4 million people
Is this meant seriously?
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Doug, The key words are "viable state". Look at the following, from the Israeli "reservations"
Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison, with open sewers and power stations and other infrastructure destroyed by Israeli rockets, in comparison to which the qassam rockets being launched into Israel are toy firecrackers...Here's a profile of Gaza.to the "road map"
Completely surrounded, even prevented from fishing, one of the mostr crowded bits of the Earth's surface, under seige with only limited food aid allowed in, is it any wonder they're so pi**ed off they elected Hamas?
Keep reading. Search on your own. Don't depend upon my perspective which is informed, but not without bias.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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just a thought on the subject raised by doug(rightly) about palistinians taking the peace and then sending Missiles.
1 most of the time there is some other event that sparks the shooting, not always but often there has been something else, raids or shutting businesses down.
the other attacks though, the un provoked ones.
how about this thought.
they had to try many times over a long period of time to take the country.
so why not try a few more times to get peace.
is it your saying peace is not worth the effort but conquest is?
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It's all in hereGary, I understand the feeling, but an understanding of the ramifications of the US's unconditional support of Israel is CENTRAL to any understanding and vision for the future of US Foreign policy.
Salaam, etc.
ed
AND I commend the Parable of the Samaritan to all those who just wish the problem would just go away somewhere out of sight, and leave us in peace.
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#82
Remember, it was the Protestants who decided that everybody could read the Bible and decide for himself.
You are beginning to start that difficult road, and it is very encouraging.
You already know that the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Palestinian Authorities will present a different version of events.
So, rather than specific URls, I will supply you with the words to search with and let you decide for yourself.
It is a lot more work- but, in the end, you will really know whereof you speak.
I would hope that many in the American electorate would start down the same road!
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jf you are right and I was not.
Xing_Ming I apologise for my remarks at your expense, I did only mean them in jest, but re-reading at jf s posting, they were wrong and I an sorry.
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77, Magic.
Whether or not the Arabs owned the land in Palestine is unimportant. If a bunch of Chinese bought up most of Manhattan, would that entitle them to establish a Chinese state?
You see how ridiculous you argument is, don't you?
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ref 84 and 88
Actually Dershowitz is a respected scholar who the cowardly terrorist appeaser Jimmy Carter refused to debate.
It is the Israelis who are owed reperations not the Palestinians.
You don't want to address the most important issue: security of Israel.
Israel can not trust the Palestinians yet you want them to give land for nothing.
Let the Palestinians prove they deserve a homeland. Terrorists and those who support them don't!
Israel is a more important concern for Americans
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Utter Bovine excrement! Nakba ain't a "theory" it's a FACT! And as to the ownership of land, only less than 7% of Palestine was in Jewish ownership in 1948, and the bulk was held in the tenure of those living and working it, but "publicly" owned. Again, if you can be bothered to access the official historical documentation, you may learn something.Salaam, etc. ed
Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune
Nicholas Ling
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument
William G. McAdoo
Minds are like parachutes-they only function when they are open
Thomas Dewar
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ahhh maybe Im too picky... but wasnt this thread intitally about a vice presidential choice ?
I feel as though I'm in a time warp and plopped into another dialogue entirely.
oh well , I need to go to work so see ya round the campfire !
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I have to agree with gary and ed I wish this debate did not HAVE to exist.
But as ed points out it is a big issue. it is the reason 9/11 happened really .
it is the reason so many do join "terrorist" groups.
but when letters like 95 exist (just remember he also likes the author of the book that says polar bears will evolve with the warming earth,and global warming is a joke)
now I know he is fishing here but just to nibble,"just one more waffer thin mint sir?"
majix
Jimmy Carter is not a terrorist appeaser just some one who believes in negotiations before war.
Israeli are owed nothing and the americans already help them out quite a bit thank you.
security of Israel is tied to allowing security for the palistinians.
The palistinians have ample proof that Israel cannot be trusted(like being invaded and taken over) and you expect them to just leave and say "well give it to them ".
Israel was formed by terrorist actions so they deserve no land.
Israel is a monkey on americas back.
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and now to bang on metal.
Thanks doug for not jumping on us.It is peace we all seek(well maybe all)
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Apparently this situation has roots much further back than I thought, so much was intelligently understood at the inseption.
His words were more than noteworthy, they were prophetic. Then my reading took me to some of the Jews that followed the events at the turn of the century.
I'll bother you all no more with this, as I find this information entising, though many don't wish to hear it. From now, I'll question only.
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#93 Doug
Respect! You're clearly one of the good guys!
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Ref #98
Carter proved in his last book that he anti-semite and a terrorist appeaser.
You want prove that Israel can live in peace. There has not been armed coflict between Egypt nor Jordan since peace was made.
The Palestinians fight each other.
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Magi #95
I must tell you that I agree with the last four of your points.
Jimmy Carter, actually I can't answer there as I am diametricly opposed to his politics, and I know nothing now of Dershowitz or his views. (I will shortly)
I don't believe anyone is owed reperations, sons of slaves nor sons of former property owners. There is no 'fair' when forward is the way to move.
The saying as I was growing up in a depressed mining town in Pennsylvania was 'migrate, mutate, adapt or die', I migrated and adapted. I don't understand others not doing it other than they can't,.. prisoners in thier own land. (continent)
harms way or the highway
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95, Magic.
You are so biased in your opinions that it is almost impossible to get through to you.
You talk about requiring the Palestinians "to prove they deserve a homeland." It sounds like an Israeli policy statelent. Are you, or are you not, an independent thinker? Or do you just repeat stuff that is spoon-fed to you?
You can't be taken seriously if you don't acknowledge that there are two sides to everything.
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Ed, Xie_Ming, there is a big difference between
disagreement with a particular government's
policies towards its neighbors, and believing
something like the "Mossad caused 9/11"
theory.
One is a perfectly reasonable position, the other
is not.
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McCain could not remember how many houses he owns
How many houses was it?
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Well spotted Ed on #85!
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Here is an article that those
of you who are taken in by the "Israeli 9/11 theory"
should read.
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Doug, In the Balfour Declaration, you have brought us probably the most glaring contradiction possible in a single sentence, the heart of which is
in contrast to the idea of a "national home" for the Jewish people.This impossibility was forseen by over 300 "prominent American Jews" in 1919, and openly acknowledged by many Zionists, notably,
Yet hope remains
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Russias Reason?
by C/O Diogenes Friday, Jul. 18, 2003 at 1:37 PM
I guess Russia got the message and decided the road through Georgia was staying open.
..till your daddy takes the T-bird away..
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102, Magic.
"Carter proved in his last book that he is an anti-semite and a terrorist appeaser."
Is this your definition of anyone who doesn't agree with you.?
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G'nR,
Just for clarity, I don't think you'll find any instances of me promulgating any 911 conspiracies, much as many are attractive and plausible.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #104
No lost your marbles, I just happen to believe on some issues there is a right side and a wrong side.
Just because I don't drink your PC Kool aid about the Palestinians being brutalized?
I see a group who by voting in terrorists can't be trusted.
If anything I think Israel has shown far too much restraint.
But there has always been 2 standards in the international community. A very liberal forgiving one for the Arab nations and a very strict ones for the Israelis
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95. At 5:54pm on 21 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref 84 and 88
"Actually Dershowitz is a respected scholar who the cowardly terrorist appeaser Jimmy Carter refused to debate."
Dershowitz
It is the Israelis who are owed reperations not the Palestinians.
You don't want to address the most important issue: security of Israel.
Israel can not trust the Palestinians yet you want them to give land for nothing.
Let the Palestinians prove they deserve a homeland. Terrorists and those who support them don't!
Israel is a more important concern for Americans
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#106, Candace, while this is a superb illustration
of McCain's state of confusion, it's generally more
important in politics for a candidate to remember
how many current sexual relationships he/she
has, and how many children he/she has fathered
or mothered.
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Doug,
#45. Thanks! I walked past Lincoln Center this morning, was reminded that the Met is doing the Ring cycle this year and have now spent 6 hours in meetings with 'Kill da wabbit, Kill da wabbit' playing in my skull.
Disturbed Sam
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95. At 5:54pm on 21 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref 84 and 88
"Actually Dershowitz is a respected scholar who the cowardly terrorist appeaser Jimmy Carter refused to debate."
Dershovitz is a ludicrous figure - no one bothers to debate him - it would be like debating a holocaust denier.
"It is the Israelis who are owed reperations not the Palestinians."
The Palestinians are owed vast reparations, this is common sense
"You don't want to address the most important issue: security of Israel."
No the importnt issue is whether you see the Palestininas as human beings -s imple answer would do. Remember they are semites if that helps
"Israel can not trust the Palestinians yet you want them to give land for nothing."
Germany had to give up lots of land after WW1 and II. France had to give up vast territories 1815.
COnquest is not justifiable be the people P
Let the Palestinians prove they deserve a homeland. Terrorists and those who support them don't!
Israel is a more important concern for Americans
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Not that this really germane to Justin's blog,
which we have apparently taken over, but
it would be nice if people of various ethnicities
could live together and be respected, regardless
of what nation state they happen to be in.
It's not the boundaries of nation states which
is the problem; it's the intolerance of people
who don't look, speak, or act like one another
which is the problem.
It's too bad that humanity can't seem to get
past this point.
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95. At 5:54pm on 21 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref 84 and 88
"Actually Dershowitz is a respected scholar who the cowardly terrorist appeaser Jimmy Carter refused to debate."
Dershovitzis a tragic figure. He ruined his career over his farcical attempts to justify oppression.
He also got imbroiled in a plagarism dispute.
He is not taken seriously any more.
Carter, by contrast remains a world figure.
"It is the Israelis who are owed reperations not the Palestinians."
Yes like the Poles owe the Russians reparations
"You don't want to address the most important issue: security of Israel."
The security of Russia did not justify conquering eastern Europe.
Israel's security will be best protected when it recognises the Palestinians as full citizens - like every other civilised country.
Now please justify the occupation of four million people. You will be the first in history to do so.
"Israel can not trust the Palestinians yet you want them to give land for nothing."
They have killed thousands of Palestinians and maimed thousands more. How much more blood does Israel or its appeasers want?
"Let the Palestinians prove they deserve a homeland. Terrorists and those who support them don't!"
How do they prove this? By offering up their families to be killed?
The proof is in the fact they are human beings just like you, though maybe a bit darker.
Do you have trouble with the idea of what a human being is?
"Israel is a more important concern for Americans"
Not for much longer. Israel was useful in the Cold War, that is now over.
That is why true friends of Israel realise the importance of ending the occupation.
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#38 Boring
#39 Dull
#47 Repetitive
#63 Lackluster
#67 Paranoid
#75 Tedious
#76 Could have been in #75
#80 Mind numbing
#92 Uninteresting
For the love of your God(s) and all that is Holy in the world change the subject!
Peace be with you.
Sam
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113, et al., Magic.
You have mentioned gratuitously on at least two occasions that you are Jewish. I think I know why you do this and will get to it later.
As it concerns the Middle East, let me rid you of one of your potential weapons by presenting my own bona fides. I am not a Turk, or a Jew, or an Arab, or a Moslem, or an Iranian, or an Afghan, or a guacomole. My family came to these shores from Europe more than 100 years ago. I am an A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N.
I have spent time in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Bahrain, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Iran and Afghanistan. I have lived in three of these countries for considerable lengths of time, and briefly in a fourth. I have not been to Iraq, but one of my children is there, so I am pretty much up on that. I speak one Middle Eastern language well, and another badly. I have had Iranian, Israeli and American business partners. (I also lived for over four years in Europe, and in England, on and off, for short stays.)
My siblings and I together have 17 children. Of the 15 who are married, the spouses include an Irishman, a black, a Jew, a Syrian-American, a Hungarian, and a half-Chinese. We are a very close family that shares a lack of prejudice and a disinterest in religion. Most everyone speaks a foreign language, and some speak two or three. I look at my wonderful family and see the new America of the twenty-first century.
Flinging about your Jewishness, Magic, cuts no ice with me. You use it to validate your gross prejudice and to quell criticism. Plus, for your own purposes, you equate Jews with Israel. Israel is a nation and, as such, is subject to scrutiny. And don't try to suggest that such scrutiny is anti-semitic. That is an old trick that does not work anymore.
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113. At 7:07pm on 21 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #104
No lost your marbles, I just happen to believe on some issues there is a right side and a wrong side."
And anyone who tries to jutify oppression is on the wrong side - as Hitler found in WWII and the Russians afterwards.
"Just because I don't drink your PC Kool aid about the Palestinians being brutalized?"
You think it reasonable to kill 5 month old children?
"I see a group who by voting in terrorists can't be trusted."
So why beat old women and steal land on the West bank?
"If anything I think Israel has shown far too much restraint."
Please let us know what you mean by this sinister statement. Remember Israeli-appeasers are not above the law.
"But there has always been 2 standards in the international community. A very liberal forgiving one for the Arab nations and a very strict ones for the Israelis"
The Israelis are permitted to occupy 4 million people with daily killings and woundings. No other country in the world is allowed such barbarism.
Certainly no other country receives such encouragement from the US.
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Re: #115. But with enough houses to put them in, 'old woman in a shoe' syndrome is thus avoided.
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Simon, I think that it would be perfectly fine if
the Palestinians had a homeland along the lines
of the Camp David accords (with a capital in East
Jerusalem, according to that document), but
with the weakening of the PLO due to corruption,
and the subsequent rise of Hamas, this may no
longer be feasible.
Once again, we have missed an opportunity to
end a conflict. As far as Carter being an anti-semite,
I have not read his book, and generally disagreed
with his politics during his tenure as President,
but I view the accomplishments that he made
in the peacemaking department with regards to
Israel and its neighbors to be stellar.
There are many Israelis who viewed Henry
Kissinger as hostile, because he represented
more than their particular point of view, but
obviously they benefited from his work.
And it would be hard for them to dismiss Henry
as an anti-semite. After all, he is Jewish.
On the one hand, Israel will not be secure until
a just and lasting peace is reached with its neighbors.
On the other hand, nobody is going to force them
out of the neighborhood.
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Candace & G'nR,
It now appears Sindy isn't an only child, but has two half-sisters, just to illustrate the triviality of the current campaign...and a plausible reason McCain might need so many abodes?
Except that apparently they're not on speaking terms...
;-)
ed
P.S. Sam, I know, but .....
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Candace, and Ed, pretty soon someone like
Ruprecht will surface.
I'm not sure which candidate has him in his closet,
or which side of the family he is on, but I'm sure
that he is there.
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Re:#126. Well, Mother Theresa said Cindy McCain should bring back two orphans from Bangladesh and so far only Bridget has been mentioned.
Waiting for the other shoe to drop
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And let's not forget Cheney and Obama are eighth cousins, while Bush and Obama are tenth cousins once removed.
Dissing cousins
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Ruprecht, you made me laugh, out loud even. Yep, there is a Rube in every closet, some of them live normal lives.
Well, it has to be Friday somewhere, so who is the Veep?
You welcome Disturbed Sam, how 'bout this one for tomorrow...........
camp town lady sing... :)
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Then, there is the Obama love child story.
I can't find a good link to it, but someone (perhaps
Justin?) mentioned that Hillary's people had proof,
but didn't use it.
Well, at least nobody is suggesting that Obama
had a "hate child."
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#129
Now I'm thinking about Blazing Saddles.
Stop the pictures
Sam
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ref #122
Wrong Israel won the land when it won the wars which the other side attacked.
All the deaths in Palestine and Lebanon can be laid at the feet of the terrorists.
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You asked for it... Here is BHO walking to the
podium at the Democratic Convention
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RealFriged 56
Could you explain what you mean by: We shall see how well capituation and pandering to threats of force and terrorism works for Spain. please.
I am English and have lived near Barcelona in Spain for the last twelve years. Your remark does not ring any bells for me.
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132, Magic.
I not with interest that you do not respond to my comment #121.
Is that because I exposed your techniques and the narrowness of your approach?
Although I tend to steer clear of the emotions involved in the Israeli Palestinian business, and prefer to look at hard facts and historical events, I am aware that they do exist.
You operate on an emotional level, and while you make no bones about your hatred for the Palestinians (as a Jew, not as an Israeli, because the distinction confuses you), you cannot validate (or even understand) the Palestinian hatred of Israel.
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ref #132
You exposed nothing.
I just stated facts.
1. Israel has kept peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan
2. Hamas launches missles into Israel settlements
3. The Palestinians have never honored or truce and peace agreements
4. Israel has done all the giving what have the Palestinians or for that matter other Arabs states given to Israel; nothing
I do operate emotional level in one respect, I am proud that the U.S takes the right side in most conflicts wether the Middle East, Columbia's fight against Dictator Hugo, The ethnic clensing of Robert Migabe.
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#136 Magic
I hadn't heard that anyone had ethnically cleansed Mugabe!
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He's picked one but who?
Waiting for the text message...
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Ref 134
Please excuse me for giving you unsolicited advice, but I think the best thing we can all do is ignore half the postings we read in political blogs. With few exceptions they reflect partisan opinions based on perceptions, and on the pervasive influence that media outlets such as FOX News, the Rush Limbaugh radio show and others have on our opinion of the world...Cooks tours notwithstanding.
I lived in Spain for 14 years, my wife is from Spain where many of her relatives live and, like you, I am baffled by the dire predictions that some commentators express. The same goes for Venezuela where I lived for 12 years and where I have friends and relatives.
Unfortunately, there is a tendency to predict Armagheddon whenever someone or a country does not adhere fully to the wishes of our government or the special interests that influence its decisions.
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To #121 marbles
Interesting post. Interesting background.
back to topic:
I am keeping an old phone handy if I don't like the Veep pick. I may need something to throw.
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136, Magic.
You are not a knowledgeable person. You are emotional. You pick up a tidbit here and a tidbit there, not understanding the whole, and use it to support your need. Becaue you are not open-minded or objective, the reaction you get is hostility which you choose to interpret as anti-semitism. That is a facile rationalization.
I am not a babe in the woods, Magic. You read my history (#121). I know the people of the whole area, not just the Israelis. I have talked with them, worked with them, and lived alongside them.
There is an interaction between nations and peoples that eludes you, as does the role of politics. In determining the fate of the area, politics has the leading role, and politics is devoid of emotion.
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Ref #141
And your multi ethnic familiy nor your travel cuts none for me.
And don't give me the non emotional politic argument.
Except for keeping down political problems at home. There is no benefit for the Gulf oil nations not to have relations with Israel.
Isreal is the most scientificly advanced nation in the Middle East and 3rd largest etrepeneurial in the wolrd.
They could be major benefits if the gulf states had full relatiuon with them.
You are extremly naive about life that is evident by your faulty logic.
There is a right and wrong side on certain issues. I happen to be on the right side on this one.
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142, Magic.
I think we are done, Magic. Your mind is so closed that there is nothing to talk about. You are like the nun who has taken the veil and refuses to discuss the possibility that there is no god.
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ref #143
Lost your Marbles and you are like the Ultras in France who said the king is not royal enough.
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144, Magic.
That makes no sense at all vis-a-vis my comment. Why am I not surprised.
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140, Neil.
I think you should throw the phone no matter who wins. It shows spirit.
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in reply to #58, Ed, #59, Simon21:
At no time did I imply that I supported the atrocities committed by IDF against Palestinians. I think the camps are a travesty that need to be addressed. America can help by exerting influence on Israel.
America has had a positive effect in the past (Carter, Reagan, BushSr, Clinton), where the Israelis have even offered to destroy the settlements, to cede land to a Palestinian Authority (Fatah), and even accept the free election of Hamas (still considered to be a terrorist organization). I fault the Bush administration for not being more engaged with keeping momentum on the "road map for peace". But, efforts aside, peace is difficult to negotiate between two sides who don't embrace it.
Pointing to an incident or a terrorist attack is unhelpful, and only serves to feed either sides propaganda war. We all need to wean ourselves from the horror du jour which is a deceptive "if it bleeds it leads" media frenzy which keeps our brains steeped in blood and righteous fury.
Simon, you lace your posts with little unsupported falsities like, "Everyday there is practically a new atrocity from killing to prevention of travel (the fulbright fiasco comes to mind) yet the US just looks on and applauds." No one denies there are atrocities, but who is applauding? Preventing travel into Israeli territory (not an atrocity) is a sovereign right of Israel, but yes, it is disruptive to people who need to make a living.
When you(and others) do this, you make it hard for people to take you seriously. I probably share your belief in the outcomes you seek, however, I will not condone feeding into the anti-Zionist, anti-Semite attacks seen here. They only serve to thicken the shell of an already hard headed, and hard hearted Israel. If you truly believe in a middle way, then you need to be willing to understand the Israeli point of view. That does not invalidate the dire need to bring relief to the Palestinian people.
What I see here in this blog is demagoguery at its finest.
Maybe the external actors in this conflict would help by bringing the Palestinians aid other than guns, C4 and bullets. But, they won't, because they also do not want a peace where Israel continues to exist.
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139, Dominick, fellow international.
As deplorable as the situation is in general, it is even worse when the area reported is less familiar in the States. My speciality is Iran. The media often depicts it as something so far off the mark, that I wonder if they got the name of the country right.
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"147. At 01:27am on 22 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
in reply to #58, Ed, #59, Simon21:
At no time did I imply that I supported the atrocities committed by IDF against Palestinians. I think the camps are a travesty that need to be addressed. America can help by exerting influence on Israel. "
But support for the IDF is implicit in putting their activities, enforcing occupation, ethnic cleansing (Hebron etc) and the Palestinian resistance on the same level.
We wouldn't put the Czech fighters and the Soviet invaders on the same level for example, as that would be condoning the Soviet invasion.
"America has had a positive effect in the past (Carter, Reagan, BushSr, Clinton), where the Israelis have even offered to destroy the settlements, to cede land to a Palestinian Authority (Fatah), and even accept the free election of Hamas (still considered to be a terrorist organization)."
I am not sure where this information is coming from, but it is inaccurate. Israel has never afreed to destroy the settlements and until recently refused every offer by hamas under the excuse that "they can't be trusted". Thus preferring war to peace.
As to "ceding land" here again we have complicity. You don't cede land you have stolen. The US did not "cede land" to the native Americans, the Australians to the Kooris - they recognised they (the non-indigenous peoples) had no right to said land.
"Pointing to an incident or a terrorist attack is unhelpful, and only serves to feed either sides propaganda war. We all need to wean ourselves from the horror du jour which is a deceptive "if it bleeds it leads" media frenzy which keeps our brains steeped in blood and righteous fury."
True but we must remember that no terrorist attack justifies occupation and the oppression of 4 million men women and children - none.
After all Pearl Harbour and Auschwitz were not cited as reasons to continually occupy Germany and Japan.
"Simon, you lace your posts with little unsupported falsities like, "Everyday there is practically a new atrocity from killing to prevention of travel (the fulbright fiasco comes to mind) yet the US just looks on and applauds." No one denies there are atrocities, but who is applauding? "
The US does nothing and therefore encourages further atrocities. Are you suggesting if Bush read the riot act to the Israelis they would not listen?
Supplying the IDF with weapons it uses to kill cameramen and other civilians, buudozers which even kill US citizens. Is this not in fact encouragement?
Is the US really so respectful of the sovereign rights in the case of other countries? I think we know the answer to that one.
What about the sovereignty of the Palestinians as human beings?
P"reventing travel into Israeli territory (not an atrocity) is a sovereign right of Israel, but yes, it is disruptive to people who need to make a living. "
And to people needing to stay alive due to medical care (paid for like all the Israeli services, by the Palestinians) Israel having wrecked the medical system apparently indifferent to the suffering this causes.
" I fault the Bush administration for not being more engaged with keeping momentum on the "road map for peace". But, efforts aside, peace is difficult to negotiate between two sides who don't embrace it."
There will be no peace why one side is asked to accept inferior status and is treated as something less than human beings. Even on the West bank where there have been no missile atacks at all, Israel erects more checkpoints, beats elderly women with baseball bats and shoots children and bound prisoners -and of course builds more settlements. And all this in comparative peace.
If the Palestinians ceased all resistance, what then, wholesale removal? Mass imprisonment?
This is the peace Israel wants -as George Kaufman explained, they want the Palestinians to dissapear.
Fortunately that is not going to happen.
Perhaps you can tell us when Condi denounced ths
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#149 Simon
Israeli destruction of Palestinians hospitals, etc., is not negligence, but policy.
The Israeli government has a religio/ethnic policy of ethnic cleansing and they consider their victims as animals.
The US is a party to this policy. The rest of the World knows it.
We can hope that, even in fundamentalist Christian churches in the USA, Protestants will use their right to independently inform themselves and act will accordingly.
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Frigid One,
I certainly participate in the former, as I would have in anti-slavery activism and did in anti-segregation activism and anti-war activism, but could you please cite any examples of anti-semitism which have appeared here.My observation is that any confusion/conflation of the two is on the part of the supporters of Zionism, but I'd be pleased in any case to see what comments you regard as anti-semitic.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Simon,
Sadly, probably they wouldn't. Bush ORDERED Sharon to cease and desist in Jenin, and snt Colon Powell to 'reinforce' the demand, but by the most circuitous route imaginable. Meanwhile Sharon carried on killing and flattening Jenin.Salaam, etc.
ed
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you confuse right and right majerk
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to all that want and end to this conflict about Israel and palistine.
A good example of different attitudes between the world and the US.
Carter.
He is respected and liked around the world for trying to find peace and having a realistic view.
Here in the states he is seen as an anti semetic interfering nazi, by some.
Notice there is an overwhelmingly bias tolerance of Israel and you are anti semetic.
If you think it of no importance , just think how irrelevant it is whether obama picks on friday , sat, sun , mon whenever.
But middle east policy, aipac, liebermans (bias or not) and the general question of is america being hijacked by Israel, is probably going to be around as a debate for a lot longer than the worry about who or rather when obama picks his VP.
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150, Xie.
In reference to Israel and Palestine, just as Magic goes overboard in one direction, you go overboard in the other. For that reason it is difficult to take either of you seriously. For both of you, emotion is getting in the way of a reasonable appraisal.
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still can't believe you don't know who Obama's vp is
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#155
Unfortunately, I am quite able to document all my points'
There are reasonable Israelis.
Unfortunately the Orthodox fundamentalists, particularly the kipa skuga (knitted skullcaps) from state-funded separate school system dominate the government.
Those are facts. They are unpalatable. But, until the secular majority takes control of affairs in Israel, the savage activities will continue.
Did you spend enough time in Israel to realize the Orthodox teaching re gentiles, and observe the spitting as they passed a church?
Are you familiar with the Talmud?
Do you know about Meir Kahane et sequelae?
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#155
Is your Hebrew good enough to have talked with Tel Aviv taxi drivers?
Have you been by Frakel Street and watched them spit?
Substantively, I know that the majority are secular and Reform. They are probably more civilized and more educated than the norm of Israelis, and one is very comfortable in their homes.
Unfortunately, they are completely disgusted with the political class in Israel and the politics are controlled by fundamentalist fanatics.
Ygail Amir (who assassinated the PM of Israel because he sought peace) was a top law student at the leading Orthodox university.
He says that the religious law justifies his murder, because giving Jewish land to a gentile makes the person so doing a rodef ( a common criminal), liable to be killed by anyone.
Amir was and is quite sane and maintains that he is right.
One cannot hide from such facts.
Civilized persons, such as Daniel Barenboiem, have left Israel in disgust over the treatment of Palestinians.
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This will be a historical or a hysterical event depending on the point of view. I would like Colin Powell but that would be too much for the American people: Two Black men. I would like it to be Hillary Clinton, but Bill is too much: Too much Two for the Money. It will probably be a Southerner, although I like Bill Richardson: Hispanic American and experienced in foreign policy. Whatever the choice, if Obama stays away from the Right-wing Christians who cannot understand why the Founding Fathers seperated Church and State. I will give them a hint: Chasmir.
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158, Xie.
Although there is justification for what you say, you are looking at the leaves, not the forest. All this stuff is superficial. What is underneath?
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157, Xie.
You are looking at the symptoms, not the disease. If you were to cure the disease, which you can't, you would have to look deeper.
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#160 #161
I have three ideas. You first.
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162.
I have only one. The West, primarily the U.S., uses Israel as a menacing anchor for our interests in the Middle East. If you think of the two nations as mother and child, America the mama allows her child, Israel, to misbahave in return for its fealty.
The injustices you see in israel are only the symptoms, not the disease. The disease is us.
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#163 was in answer to Xie. I don't remember if I noted that.
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#163
In a slightly similar vein, the Tel Aviv Clinical psychologist, Opfer Grossbardt, has written a book: "Israel on the Couch".
From his experience, he finds his countrymen as adolescents.
My take would be that of a culturally ingrained paranoia, with a strain of sociopathy.
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163, Xie.
I don't see how that is that similar to my comment.
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Justin:
I hope that the announcement went off great...
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