Summer argy-bargy
Reading your responses and talking to Tad Devine, the former chief consultant to Al Gore and adviser to the Kerry campaign, I think the most reasonable take is that Obama is probably doing just fine.
Remember the autumn of 2007 when he was dismissed by many as a man incapable of hitting the mark when it mattered? Well, what he knew was that it didn't actually matter then; it mattered a few months later in the snow in Iowa, and his people had been preparing for that moment all along.
It's the same deal now. Devine told me one of the biggest mistakes with Kerry was not to let the man take a break (I didn't mention the windsurfing debacle but I suppose that was a sign of a holidaymaker manque frustrated by being kept too long on the campaign trail) and some of the candidates biggest mistakes stemmed from that error.
A rested Obama and a chastened Clinton whose greatest applause will come when he corrects himself and says he DOES think Obama is ready, will set the scene for victory.
But I do think the line "is the biggest celebrity in the World ready to help your family" (running now in around a dozen states) is a good one: you can see how this man could lose and it not be the fault of racists or warmongers or ignoramuses.
In the meantime, it is time to chill - rather in the manner of this admirable blogger who watched a non-event come and go down in Texas.
The real storm will come, but this summer argy-bargy is not it .......
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Dear Justin,
I posted a comment along these lines at the tail end of your previous message, but
would like to bring this to the attention of some of your admirable bloggers.
I realise that there is a different useage of some words between the UK and the US, but I am concerned that Senator McCain is trumpeting his "maverick" status - certainly at this time during the campaign.
The COD defines a "maverick" as an undisciplined person and the word also means an "adventurer". Is the US really looking for a maverick adventurer to be the most important person in the world.
I understand that he is emphasising his maverick status to flag up his past disloyalty to his party and, in politics, past disloyalty - particularly if it is on many issues not just one - seldom leads to future cohesion.
Maverick does not seem to be a word which inspires confidence in a divided country looking for reliability and clarity.
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Just what we need to ward off the Depression:
Sounds like he's been listening to Obama?Yup! But it would be much cheaper to just buy the opium crop....Spend a bunch of newly-minted money on some more stuff that blows up!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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I think that is true, and I am sure that this is mid-summer madness. However, I do find it interesting that Obama has not announced his VP before the Olympics, and I think we can be sure that he will not announce whoever that might be during the Olympics; nor, without overshadowing Hillary deliberately, can he announce his VP on the conference Tuesday, so it looks like the VP will be announced on the night. Or has the VP just been announced and we haven't noticed it: not Hillary, but Bill.
Bill is scheduled to speak on the night of the VP nomination. Imagine, for a moment, Obama coming out of the wings just before Bill is due to speak and saying, 'I want to say something about the nomination for VP. As you all know that person ought to have foreign policy experience and economic competency; be someone who I can trust for advice, and who is prepared to disagree with me; but who shares a common vision for the future. Bill has graciously accepted that role for the next four years'.
It would, in an instant, change everything. The Republicans would have their single biggest strength neutralised and be caught unprepared; the Democrats could unite around Barack and Bill. The south would comprehensively be put into play, as well as the southwest. Pennsylvania, Michigan, et al, would all safely be in the Democrat column.
Of course, such a choice would be a Faustian bargain, and some Hillary supporters might regard it as Bill's greatest act of betrayal; but Hillary would get her name on the Kennedy-Clinton Health Act and be in line for Leader of the Senate after Reid, whilst Bill would have a chance to redeem some of his legacy.
It's just a thought, and perhaps Obama will make an announcement before the convention; but if he doesn't, then the chances of such a dramatic choice increase. How the Clinton's manoeuvre themselves over the next couple of weeks will be very interesting.
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It's a pity this is released into the season of non-news, but it's really stating the bleeding obvious!
But it may be just what we need to fend off the coming Great Depression MarkII. Anyone fancy invading a country which is 90% mountains and four times the size of Iraq?
That would help to get our industry ramped up to full employment!
Salaam, etc.
ed
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The Great Debate and the perils of Oedipus...
;-)
ed
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Obama is actually doing better than expected, and is demonstrating organizational skills, vision, and determination that are not apparent in McCain's camp.
McCain's emphasis on his "maverick" record may actually backfire. Many Republicans consider him a RINO (Republican in Name Only) and are very uncomfortable with his moderate track record, willingness to compromise with Democrats, and his lack of religiosity. The last thing he should do is remind his party loyalists of past "affronts" such as calling religious leaders "agents of intolerance".
Many Independents, and conservative Democrats, respect McCain's record and patriotism, we are simply concerned about his lack of depth and coherency on important issues, the memory lapses that are becoming increasingly obvious, his embarrassing gaffes on foreign and domestic matters, and his own admission of ignorance on economic matters.
While Obama is obviously inexperienced, lack of Washington experience is actually viewed as a blessing by many. He is already putting together a formidable team of advisors that should be able to help him with the most complex issues facing our nation, and he has demonstrated willingness to listen and change his mind when proven wrong.
The chances of Bill Clinton - or Hillary for that matter - becoming VP are slim to none. Hillary is already looking at 2012, a fact that is readily apparent in the coolness of her endorsements of Obama. She is going through the motions because she wants to be perceived as a team player, but her ultimate goal is her political future, not Obama's.
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I think Hugh Heffner should have run. Just imagine what his cabinet meetings would have been like.
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In my opinion, we are making another horrible mistake in Afghanistan. We invaded that country because Al Qaeda had training camps there, and because the Taleban was either incapable or unwilling to expel them from that country. Al Qaeda has moved to other areas, mostly Pakistan, and the Taleban is no longer in power.
What we should do is increase the CIA funding and turn them loose in their quest to find Osama bin Laden. That is, unless we need OBL alive to justify the so-called "war on terror". Once he and his lieutenants are located we should send commando forces to either kill them or bring them to justice; along with the Saudi Wahhabist princes that have supported and financed Al Qaeda for decades, including their complicity in the 9/11 massacre.
Aside from capturing the Al Qaeda hierarchy, our role in Afghanistan should be one of reconstruction and education to change the perception that currently exists that we are nothing more than modern-day crusaders occupying Muslim lands.
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MarkfromOxford - When I started reading your reply I thought you were barmy. But as I read through the post I found myself beginning to consider the possibility. Barack has been very clear about looking for someone to 'help him govern'. If they were looking for someone who would be a Game Changer, it would definitely be a bold move.
But I still think that the sheer number of skeletons in Bill's closet would rule him out, not to mention some of his comments during the primary campaign. Plus the Hillary fans would go beserk.
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#9
Bill Clinton would make a great VP. What about the Constitutional problems in the event of of a succession?
How would Hillary as VP get any more votes than anyone else?
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I hope Mark was joking about the Bill Clinton VP slot?! We need to turn the page on the Clintons.
Al Gore might be a more plausible choice.
Hillary would prefer a Veep who won't run in 2016, assuming Obama wins and is re-elected.
I keep hearing rumours of a surprise "left field" choice. So it may not be Evan Bayh as I originally thought. Perhaps Chuck Hagel or Michael Bloomberg?
I wouldn't rule out Bill Richardson either. I'd like to see Kathleen Sebelius -that would really piss off the Clintonites! I'm sure all those women who voted for Hillary only because of gender, would still vote for another woman.
I agree with Justin that it's good for Obama to take a holiday. As the recent poll shows, 48% of voters are sick of hearing about him. Let the media focus on McCain and hopefully expose some his of his many gaffes and dubious donations.
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Hi Justin,
I'm currently reading 'the Political Brain' by Democratic consulatant Drew Westen, fascinating stuff.
In it he gives a clear warning to Obama - beware of being 'Corkered'
He describes a race in Tennessee where the RNC ran an attack against Dem. Harold Ford in a tight Senate race.
In brief: Westen claims that the ad used scantily clad white women to play on unconscious networks of racism within voters to try and "activate a network about black men having sex with white women, something which many white men still feel queasy about."
He goes on to warn Obama that he "needs to study the of the Ford-Corker race."
Can the Paris Hilton/Britteny Spears references really be a subtle psychological ploy to play the race card? If Westen is right that is exactly what it means.
I'm in two minds as to whether or not I believe him. I don't want to believe him but anything is possible. Also I find the rest of his book credible, certainly for anyone who is a George Lakoff fan this is the logical conclusion of his work.
I read the page about Corker the same day as the Paris Hilton ad and the dots connected immediately.
The whole story is in Westen's book pp243-248. It is published in 2007 ISBN-13: 978-1-58648-425-7. either way it is a great read.
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I am afraid that Eoin at 12 is spot on the mark. Why else wasn't Beyonce in the video ?
This has worked for the GOP many times in the past but the message that Obama is trying to send is that it doesn't cut the mustard any more.
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Dominick,
Your faith in the CIA is touchingThe search for bin Laden
;-)#
ed
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The Democratic party has a wide array of highly qualified, and popular, VP candidates that would be an asset to Obama's bid for the Presidency. Among them are Governors Sebelius, Napolitano, and Kaine; Senators Webb, Bayh and Nunn, and Gen. Wesley Clark. We'll find out soon...
In the interim, Russia invades Georgia. I wonder what we are going to say if they claim a pre-emptive strike against Georgian terrorists?
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Ref 14
I realize their record is far from brilliant, but they are bound to be more effective than using troops trained and equipped to fight conventional wars to carry out police actions.
In my opinion, our inability to capture OBL is due to lack of focus, evident in our decision to pursue distractions such as Iraq, rather than intelligence limitations. The CIA was actually very specific in their warnings about an impending attack against the USA before 9/11, warned the Bush Administration about the inclusion of nuclear claims in his State of the Union address, and informed the President that there was evidence that all WMDs had been destroyed before we invaded Iraq. They are just a scapegoat to take the heat off the Administration, pretty much the same way Lt. Col. Oliver North became responsible for the Iran-Contra affair.
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Dominick,
They also are reputed to have extensive contacts among the opium traders....
Salaam, etc.
ed
P.S. Justin, were you there?
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"But I do think the line "is the biggest celebrity in the World ready to help your family" (running now in around a dozen states) is a good one: you can see how this man could lose and it not be the fault of racists or warmongers or ignoramuses."
Mr. Webb:
Not be the fault of......?
What?
There is so much condescension, contempt and patronizing nonsense in this statement that it reads like a pardoy of anti-Americanism.
You have spent a good deal of time here, from what I can tell. There really is no excuse for this.
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There are times when I think that Justin isn't biased in his strated opinions, this isn't one of them.
With all the political contention with the War of Iraq, I find it un-nerving that anyone would want to futher this sharade in Afganistan. Worthless, uninspired for any reason agression in a country that is so backward as to drain the world bank of funds prior to bringing it into the nineteenth century, nevermind the twenty-first.
Okay, we are there, we are done, lets go! Can we not see that the stage of Afganistan is diametric to Iraq. The attacks and the organization are that of a unified people. All ready five hundred dead for no reason. Let history tell the story of the Russians, who by the way, also had nothing to gain, except maybe a weapons testing ground.
Wikipedia
I've been wondering, does anyone know what the Russians were interviening in?
death by choice: smoking, drinking, war
Whirld Peas, think about it, just losing peace, spinning out of control
praying
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A worthwhile celebrity endorsement!
;-)
ed
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To me, being a celebrity simply means a person is very popular. Since when is being popular a negative attribute? Should Queen Elizabeth abdicate because she is popular?
Obama's popularity is not because of his race, but in spite of it. He is popular because of his charisma, enthusiasm, vision, energy, convictions and because of the confidence and hope that emanate from his persona.
What needs to be established is his ability to lead and assume the responsibilities of the most important Office in the USA and, possibly, in the world.
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Dominick, #8
I never agreed with anyone so much. Even your faith in CIA or a Seal/special froces solution. The real on the ground cituation may be more difficult as tribes join any side that feeds 'em. OBL is feeding someone.
THOM SHANKER, New York Times
The scariest part of that is "reconstruction" . I worry that the meaning of that is "forced into the Twenty First century" Coming from the ninth century with little to no infrastructure, ....
I agree with Ed Inglehart, #2
"Yup! But it would be much cheaper to just buy the opium crop...."
'peace' por nada
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
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Doug,
Surely seals and special frogs will be a bit out of place in arid Afghanistan?And, as to Nation building, the less said, the better!
Salaaaaaami
ed
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Note the first paragragh of this quote is at the end of Russian influence and the Taliban running the country. The second paragraph is the UN stats after Operation Enduring Freedom
Wikipedia
And in understanding this, I have to ask 'why'. So I look up 'Operation Enduring Freedom' and understand even less why so much effort, lives and money go to this cause.
Because now its not just the US, but more. After the attacks and threats in China by Islamic radicals, I ask, are we in fact at war with Radical Islam world wide and if so just say it.
topic wrong or right
what
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Doug,
A good friend, who travels quite a bit in Afghanistan, and always returns with traveller's tales, informs me that many of the tribals, especially in the high border areas are essentially Indo-Europeans, and only recently Islamised. ("They have dogs indoors and they drink").The secular schools we sponsor in upper Nuristan have the blessing of the local "Taliban". All is not as we are led to believe by the mainstream media.
Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you
ed
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The biggest mistake the Democrats made with Kerry was to nominate him. He was just an unlikeable guy. Add to that the fact that he was running against an incumbent, and his chances were slim.
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A new idea, but will it work?
;-)
ed
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"Obama's popularity is not because of his race, but in spite of it. He is popular because of his charisma, enthusiasm, vision, energy, convictions and because of the confidence and hope that emanate from his persona."
Dominick Villa:
I would agree with all the words you list with the exception of one: convictions.
I have no idea what Obama believes, or what his principles are. Do you know?
He changes on absolutely everything. That can be helpful, especially because some of his stated policies are potentially extremely destructive and foolish, such as massive tax increases and protectionism.
I wonder what people in Britain and other nations think of his protectionist ideas, which will be terrible for us and for our trading partners. That is never discussed.
Obama is a pleasant and at times eloquent celebrity, but he is no sense a leader. At times, that can be a relief, but a very weak president can be a serious liability - and Obama will be a very weak president. Anyone without convictions or principles is a potential problem.
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Timothy,
Care to point us to where "massive tax increases" are stated as policy?Salaam, etc.
ed
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re: 3. MarkfromOxford
Nope. Sorry. Won't work.
The most important role for vice-president is to succeed in the event of the president dying, becoming incapacitated or being impeached and convicted. Having served two terms as president, Bill is barred from serving again. In the event of one of the above-mentioned disasters, that would automatically give the presidency to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi. After all the effort Hillary put into her campaign do you think she would enjoy seeing another woman becoming the first female president? And although we did pretty well with Gerald Ford, it would generally not be considered a good idea to have a president who had only been elected by a single congressional district. And I think most voters would look askance at a presidential ticket, one half of which was automatically barred from his most important function.
And frankly, after his performance in the primary campaign even many of his former supporters are tired of Bill and wish he would go away. I voted for the guy twice and I think he embarrassed himself.
There are plenty of other well-qualified fish in the vice-presidential sea.
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And, as for protectionism:
Hmmmm
ed
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#27 Ed,
That group bu definition is planning to restrict freedom of speech and should charged with such. Wow! That is by itself the most scary thing I've heard yet, scare tactics of shame and financial ruin for saying what you believe, if it is different from them Whew!!
the hill of beans just got mashed
peace with a purpose
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timohio (#30), actually, the twenty-second amendment only prohibits [I]election[/I] to the presidency more than twice. It is interesting to consider whether someone might obtain a third term through succession.
I'm not advocating WJC for vice-president, however.
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Having served two terms as president, Bill is barred from serving again.
not true ,is it.
as i understood he is barred from three terms in a row.
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Doug (32),
I don't think it has anything to do with restricting free speech. Intimidation, yes, but who says donors have a right to anonymity?
In fact, they have a right under free speech to publicise the donors' names.
We'll see what unfolds
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Ed, exactly, no difference from what I've been saying all along. R or D, we're in a world of the same. Just as you pointed out there with McCain.
How about that dollar, soaring against the euro as the reality of Europe Economy comes to light.
All is not as it seems, rarely do what anyone expects actually happen due to so many factors. Notice the lump sum thinking.
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or is that only in "special cercumstances"
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whoa, WJC for VP!!??
Hillary as Supreme Court Justice!!
I'm moving to Arkansas.
BHO would be afraid to turn his back with him behind me.
Dis oriented thinking, head exploding, need duct tape??!!?
Arruuguggghh!! splooooosh
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19, Doug.
It is impossible for anyone to win a war in Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran.
None of these countries have worthwhile armies, so it is not a question of army pitted against army. That is something the West could manage.
What you have in those countries are fiercely independent people, bound by family, clan and tribe. You would have to take them on one by one, and that is impossible.
There is the illusion, for instance, that Iran has a repressive government that controls the country with an iron fist. Not so. Ask the Kurds, the Turkoman and the Balluchis.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Truely marbles #39
Cannot agree more. And to top that, forcing an idea like representative government to a clan or tribe,.. to what purpose.
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argy-bargy, just what is that? Kind of like getting crazy, or head exploding, or getting the duct tape?
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As has been pointed out already, in 1947 Congress passed the 22nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which stated that no person could be elected to the office of president more than twice. That happened two years after the death of FDR, who was elected for an unprecedented four consecutive terms.
The fact is, however, that regardless of Constitutional concerns, Obama would be nothing short of suicidal if he chose Bill Clinton, or even Hillary, as a running mate. For better or worse, the Clintons are not the type of people that would spend their days quietly in the Executive Office Building. They would undermine Obama's authority, not to mention his visibility, to the point of making the President irrelevant. I think Virginia Governor Kaine would be a safe bet. Capturing VA would be pivotal in securing an electoral college majority, and selecting a Catholic may bring some votes from a segment of our population that thus far has eluded Obama. Governors Sebelius and Napolitano would also be important assets to the Obama campaign strategy as they are likely to attrack female votes.
Obama's religious convictions are Protestant, his political convictions appear to be center-left. He has flipped-flopped on some issues, but so has McCain. One of the most notable for both is off-shore oil drilling.
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True leadership material?
Judge for yourself
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Urine bottles: Another result of high fuel prices? Okay, will either of the canidates pick this up as a campaign point!!
LOL
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#28, 29
We trotted out the tired old nag sound bite of 'Obama's massive tax increases'.
If you make less than $200,000 to $250,000, you will see a tax break under Obama.
If you make more than $250,000 a year, please don't try to resuscitate the idea of trickle down economics as an argument against this lifeline Obama will throw to the floundering middle class.
Obama was also specific in saying he would return capital gains taxes to rates no higher than the level we saw under that incorrigable tax collector... Ronald Reagan
An increase in the salary ceiling for social security tax collection is such an obvious solution that it has only been ignored for 8 years by those who want to end this New Deal program. Given so many recent banking and securities scandals and failures, are we all disappointed that Bush did not succeed in slashing social security and making us privatize our retirement savings?
We have to increase revenue to reduce the Bush deficit, and Obama has a measured plan that helps most Americans.
Appeasement is another old nag of a word that is also trotted out too often in this election debate. I'll submit that the most dangerous and costly appeasements for most Americans has never been overseas but rather were the appeasements of the right wing by deregulating or under-regulating trading and lending, consumer safety, the environment, CAFE standards, etc.; embracing the cabinet neo-con's enormously costly foreign policy; and losing revenue by piling up tax breaks for the elite few.
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Oh Well, Can Timothy find his stated "High Tax" policy here?
Too big for the Mods (who are as Gods)
;-)
ed
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Found it!!
argy-bargy (r'g-b'rg) KEY
NOUN:
Chiefly British Slang pl. ar'gy-bar'gies
A lively or disputatious discussion.
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Jaybird's got their measure!
Well said, that man!
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Oh Ed, #44
hahaha, McCain at his best, ya'll must see this.
His best lin, "..I'm a conservative-liberal republican,.. er"
too good
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Justin:
I see you ignored my advice about having a few McCain related blogs.
Why are you listening to Tad Devine? He was on the losing side in the last two elections.
Kerry lost not because of Swift boat but because he doesn't stand for anything.
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41, Doug.
There is this notion that being American is better than being anthing else. We talk about human rights (our own definition) and try to impose our own prejudices on third-world countries. (It wouldn't work if we tried it on France or England, would it?)
In my longs stays overseas I had the opportunity to experience cultures that incorporated beliefs and practices often distinctly different from ours. These cultures were neither better nor worse than ours, just different. The important thing is that they suited the people that created them.
It is an act of extreme egotism to assume that infamiliar customs are inferior to ours. I think we should mind our own business.
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just FYI
Obamas Tax plan according to RNC
The difference is negligable, due to the raise of tax on any large corporation goes into costs and is differed by passing cost of tax to the prices of product.
The small business tax increase and Healthcare mandates are really the taxes that hurt.
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53, Doug.
The health insurance system we have is fed by greedy pharmaceutical companies, exhorbitant medical bills, fraud, corruption, and middlemen who take a large chunk in profits. Expanding the system will only make it worse.
If I had it my way I would get rid of this racket and start all over again.
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Thanks for the link Doug - who could possibly provide a more evenhanded analysis of Obama's tax plan than the Republican National Committee?
I forgot to mention one more costly appeasement - the lack of regulation of our for-profit medical-insurance complex. Cigna's 37% quarterly gains make the oil companies look chaste and demure in comparison.
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allmymarbles (#52), I don't know where you get the idea that many Americans are much concerned about changing customs unfamiliar to us. That is not our business. It is our business, however, to go after terrorist enemies of the United States (and our NATO allies) wherever we find them.
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ref 54
You forgot to mention Ambulance chasing lawyers like John Edwards, who by the way admitted cheating on his wife
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The holier-than-thou attack on Edwards is a typical Republican tactic, as if their people were all saints. As for "lawyers," many people in government in the US from either major party are attorneys.
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Gary A Hill #56
Sir, are you a soldier? I like the way you defended the USA immediately. Kudos. But then I read #58 What tactic?
It was just a comment. Ok, Johns a nice guy.
I don't find any difference between either party. The people should keep quiet, stay out of the way, and vote for them every time.... and be glad we aren't Europe :)
Bluejay60, being quiet today, your welcome.
To hot in TEXas to carry on,.. must find more duct tape.
oh my
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Ref 56
"It is our business, however, to go after terrorist enemies of the United States (and our NATO allies) wherever we find them".
Most Americans, indeed, most people with a minimal amount of common sense understand the need to arrest and bring to justice terrorists - both foreign and domestic - like those responsible for 9/11, Oklahoma City, Madrid, London, Bali and so many other targets.
The problem that some of us have with this issue is that the definition of terrorist has changed in recent years and now encompasses anyone who does not support our interests or objects to our presence in their countries. In my opinion, there is a big difference between someone intent on harming other people because of ideology or other motives, and people fighting for their sovereignty.
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56, Gary.
Read all the political garbage about human rights.
This has nothing to do with terrorism.
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57, Magic.
I guess what you are talking about is the cost of malpractice insurance. I agree that measures should be taken make the system more equitable.
As to your comment about John Edward's cheating on his wife, I fail to understnad what this has to do with health insurance?
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60, Dominick.
Right on!
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"Oh Well, Can Timothy find his stated "High Tax" policy here?
Too big for the Mods (who are as Gods)"
Ed:
You're using the Obama campaign site as a reference for his tax policies!
This give you some idea of the enormous tax increases that will slam the economy:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/would_obama_tax_my_profits_if_i.html
This is simply data. It's a bit boring, but it does lay out the enormous taxes that Obama plans on everything from home sales to dividends to capital gains. The majority of the American population will be hit very hard,
I will add that my comment earlier in the thread obviously produced a response, but none of Obama's supporters bothered to discover the facts - which are readily available.
Instead, there was simply anger and defensiveness.
It is this intensely emotional response to Obama that is such a concern. His followers love him with the zeal of cult members, without bothering to discuss policy.
This is very dangerous.
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DougTexan (#59), no, I am not a soldier and have never been one. I was of prime age for that during the Vietnam War, when that wasn't an attractive career choice for people of my views.
What I am now is a citizen of a country that was attacked by people who flew commercial airplanes into buildings, and I think we need to keep that in mind.
It was clear that the attacks came from a group in Afghanistan, and I think we quite properly demanded that the (Taliban) government hand them over. When they refused, we (also properly, and with NATO support) took them down. My observation was that this action was widely supported in the United States.
What is much less clear is the reason for being in Iraq. This project was a distraction from dealing with the problem in Afghanistan. It should not have been undertaken so soon, and perhaps not at all. The original justification was false, and the cost and duration of the conflict far more than anyone expected. A lot of Americans question the wisdom of the Iraq intervention, and in any case want to see an end to it after so much time and expense, and human cost.
I don't have the answer to the Iraq problem, but I'm hopeful that a Democratic administration will find one.
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allmymarbles (#61), I do not know to which "political garbage about human rights" you refer, nor do I know to what your use of "this" refers.
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Ref 64
"It is this intensely emotional response to Obama that is such a concern. His followers love him with the zeal of cult members, without bothering to discuss policy".
Interesting comment for a Republican! The most glaring difference between a Republican and a Democrat, besides their respective approaches to domestic and foreign policies, is the discipline and loyalty of the former. The most glaring example is the unconditional support given to President Bush, even after it became clear that he had deceived the American people on Iraq, and that his fiscal and economic policies are contributing to our demise.
Democrats are notoriously undisciplined, and often split their vote; ever heard the term Reagan Democrats?
The fact that many of us like what Obama stands for and support the policies he advocates does not mean we don't recognize his shortcomings or disagree with some of his proposals. I object to the expansion of the Faith Based Initiative, and I think he is wrong on Afghanistan, but overall I prefer his proposed solutions - and vision for America - to the absence of new ideas coming from McCain.
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Ref 65
"What I am now is a citizen of a country that was attacked by people who flew commercial airplanes into buildings, and I think we need to keep that in mind"
Most of us keep this very much in mind, and I doubt we will ever forget it. It is precisely for this reason that many of us are so upset about the lack of commitment and focus shown by the Bush Administration, and their failure to apprehend and bring those responsible for 9/11 to justice.
In fact, I am downright angry at the fact that instead of demanding cooperation and justice from the Saudi government for the complicity of their Wahhabist nuts in 9/11, including those members of the Royal family that financed that event, the Bush Administration rewarded that country by making it a Most Favored Nation.
Lucrative contracts and reliable oil supplies should not be a consideration for appeasement towards nations that allow or foster a climate of hatred conducive to atrocities like the one we suffered.
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DougTexan (#59), by "tactic" I mean attacking John Edwards (and thereby the Democrats) for his personal peccadillos rather than for any substantive reason of policy.
Edwards is out of the picture as a presidential candidate anyway, not for his personal shortcomings, but because he has had his chances and he lost.
I was just reading up on the Profumo affair. These are things the British do so much better than we Americans. I think Edwards (and his wife) should look to Profumo for a model of how he should hereafter conduct himself in regards to this matter.
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DominickVila (#68), we are in agreement on such things as the hypocrisy in the use of the "Most Favored Nation" status. Isn't China also a MFN? Principles often take a back seat when there is a substantial economic consideration.
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66, Gary.
"This" refers to your non sequitor.
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considering that this is a year in which the democrats should be able to run a chimpanzee against the GOP and win, the above "Obama is doing better than expected" comment seems rather out of place, given that most polls seem to only put him 2-3% ahead.
should we also not consider the "Bradley Effect" when assessing Obama's lead. It seems as if many people have decided that the only reason that a person wouldn't like him is fully flegged KKK membership, which just might give him an artificial boost in the polls, one that may not translate to a secret ballot.
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54 I'm really bad I would nationalise it.
but then 'm a little red really.though not in the red state way.
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It was clear that the attacks came from a group in Afghanistan, and I think we quite properly demanded that the (Taliban) government hand them over. When they refused, we (also properly, and with NATO support) took them down. My observation was that this action was widely supported in the United States.
I agree with much you say dominick but ,and there is always one with a moaner like me, please think of the northern Ireland the "troubles" .
Now would it have been acceptable for the brits to tell Dublin"hand them over or we will bomb Dublin or fly planes to bomb little farm houses?
I think not and though the Brits may have overstepped the mark more than a few times, they did not raze any area of Ireland with the bombs they had.
It is the same thing, for all the Brits knew they could be planning something bigger than a bomb in Harrods during the Christmas rush.
Should we really have sent the RAF in to get all they could. Invaded and tried to destroy those suspect cells that they were tracking?
I just mention this to point out that from the British point of view a terrorist attack is rarely seen as an excuse for going to war.
Thank you
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73, Jack.
Although I am in favor of small govenment, in this case I have to agree with you. But just nationalizing is not the solution.
Why are hospital costs, doctor visits and drugs so expensive? Because they can get away with it. So each of those would have to be regulated. (Another government thing I am normally against.)
First the drug companies. I was overseas a couple of years ago when I found I had lost my asthma medicine. So I went to a local pharmacy and paid $67 for a replacement. I was horrified that it was so expensive.
I have health insurance which also covers prescriptions. I looked up the price that Medco claims it pays for the same medication. It was something like $175. I looked up the price in Canada and it was somewhat cheaper. (I guess being close to the U.S. they also gouge, but not as much.)
I refuse to believe that Medco, who buys in huge quantities would pay more than I would have to pay if, as a single unit buyer, I bought in Canada. So there is funny stuff going on there. As to buying overseas, I have long known that American drugs are much less expensive there than here.
That's #1. My husband went to an eye doctor for a checkup. It was just a normal checkup. We found later that the doctor had charged the HMO $23,000 for some esoteric test. My husband called to notify the insurance company. They were not particularly interested. Why should they be? All they have to do is up the premiums!
Tests. Many of these are unnecessary. Did you know the doctor ordering them gets a percentage?
I could go on and on, but I am getting depressed.
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Timmy from south park.64
I'm a supporter of Obama and I have not even responded .
yet
So in theory your comment about
"but none of Obama's supporters bothered to discover the facts - which are readily available."
"Instead, there was simply anger and defensiveness."
is not really able to be backed up.
As for your comment about the tax hikes and stuff . You quote a site called fact check, and in the answer to "is this e,mail real' it say's no it is a bogus bunch of bird droppings.
I almost wish it were real but like I said before I am a little red, but reading it it is nothing out of order.
So maybe the Obama supporters think you are just wrong, and good on them for that.
Maybe the anger is because they think you are using this bastion of truth to spread scurrilous rumours best left in the seedy bars they are dreamt up in.
And maybe you should learn to scroll past the headlines.
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Justin. I do not understand why my comment #75 in reply to JackForge was not printed. It was a discussion of health insurance. There was no foul language or any other problem I can think of. It would help if I knew why the comment was not published.
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Marbles.
I know, unfortunately a fully public health system won't go down here, but I'm an Idealist.
I do understand many of the problems as to america's health care but just wish there was a national health system that was good enough to keep private ones cheaper as well.
The new"peace health hospital" here in eugene , millions (on a flood pplain were if there was a major flood they may get wet)
they made it look like timbeline lodge, that was the plan, they asked the ex patients(those that can afford to go there) what they wanted.
they did not say more access for those that cannot afford it(or if they did they were ignored)they made it look real nice with guest beds in every room etc, for visitors.
So those that can afford it get the Hilton and all the town can go to hell.
it is a sad way to run it.
and so back to nationalising it.
Or more regulation.
or more people with saying "wait why give a hospital with a charitable status a tax break for that.
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I don't know what is duller and more boring, the campaign right now or this discussion. However, in the midst of all this doom and gloom where Obama took a vacation to Hawaii, McCain is off somewhere taking a nap, Israel issues its umteenth empty warning to Iran, BBC plays with its handy dandy portable air analyzer proving the air quality in Beijing is unfit for human breathing let alone athletics, a few thousand more dead refugees in Sudan doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore, we have at least one bright prospect in front of us everyone is ignoring....hey folks....THERE IS A WAR GOING ON BETWEEN GEORGIA AND RUSSIA! And as you brits would say..."its starting to HOT UP!" (oooo does that expression sound painful to these American ears.) President Bush and Putin (whatever he's called these days, Prime Minister or something) looked pretty grim in Beijing while the new guy (President?) Medvedev was more than serious. Both sides are ready for a big one. How far will it go if the Russians practice escalatio on Georgia and start bombing Tiblisi? So what are McCain's and Obama's positions on the looming war in Georgia? Who wants to bet neither of them has one? Who wants to bet neither of them could find it on a map? Who wants to bet neither of them has a map? They're running for President of what?
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Captain Kirk for President
;-)
ed
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Ref 74
Jack, I remember clearly when our government asked the Taleban to shut down the Al Qaeda training camps and hand over the members of that group that were in their country. I also remember the ambivalence of the Taleban who, either because they were impotent and unable to control Al Qaeda or because they sympathized with their cause, did not act upon our request.
Like you said, that left us no choice but to intervene, destroy the training camps and remove the Taleban from power since it was fairly clearly that they were in cahoots with Al Qaeda.
That was all fine and good but now that the Al Qaeda training camps are no longer there and the Taleban leaders that did not comply with our request are either dead or gone; it is time to focus on the capture of the man responsible for 9/11 and the Saudi Wahhabist supporters that financed the attack on 9/11.
Except for capturing OBL, I do not understand why we should remain in that country indefinitely; particularly when the indigenous population doesn't want us there, does not appreciate our sacrifice - both in human and financial terms - and reject the opportunities we have given them to enjoy democracy and freedom.
With that in mind, I think we would be better off focusing on our problems and letting the Afghans enjoy their opium and goats.
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Ref 70
"Principles often take a back seat when there is a substantial economic consideration".
Judas also had an economic consideration when he sold out Jesus.
I realize that there is no evidence of complicity linking the House of Saud to 9/11, just like there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein was implicated in that despicable act; but that didn't stop us from attacking and invading Iraq and letting Saudi Arabia completely off the hook. As a minimum, we should have demanded that Saudi Arabia hand over all the Saudi princes and other wealthy financiers that provided the funds that Al Qaeda used to carry out the attack against us. I am sure you already know that the majority of the terrorists that attacked us were Saudi Arabians, and so is Osama bin Laden.
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Timothy,
Excuse me! It seems the first place to go for "stated policies"As to your source, perhaps you should read it :
So. What else have you got?
Salaam, etc.
ed
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I'm voting for Paris Hilton. She's the only candidate who's made any sense so far. She's probably the smartest too. At least she was able to read her lines from the teleprompter without making any mistakes although its true we don't know how many takes it required.
"Whatever?" Pathetic.
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Vindication of McCain:
Much is being made of McCain being called a
maverick. There can be five types of definition of a word: dictionary definition;
stipulative; precising; disambiguating and theoretical. Several convenient definitions are being bandied about by McCain's detractors. However, the standard meaning of words are dictionary definitions and Webster's Ninth Collegiate dictionary defines a maveric
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#65
The people who attacked on 9/11 were nearly all Wahabbis from Saudi Arabia.
Israel's MOSSAD had three teams watching them, one of which (dba "Urban Moving Systems") set up cameras to film the action and told the police "the Palestinians did it".
Even among civilized countries, there seems to be agreement that Afghanistan served as a haven for al-Quaida.
For Bin Laddin to keep getting volunteers, something has to be causing them to join-what do you suppose it could be?
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Allmymarbles has raised many valid points.
Most interesting is what to do about the US medical system. I suppose Hillary as HEW, would have some good ideas.
Anyone availing himself of the VA system should be disqualified from the discussion, otherwise it could use some good ideas.
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DominickVila (#81), yes, it is generally known that Bin Laden is Saudi. My understanding is that he and his Saudi associates are not in the good graces of the Saudi government, however. Bad for business, after all.
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79, Marcus.
I think I know what is wrong with you. You are suffering from "brain overload." This a rare syndrome brought about by trying to achieve more than is possible with a given number of brain cells.
Treatment is simple and effective It is based on a few simple measures that will relieve mental stress.
Here is one that works. For approximately three houses a day, watch grass grow. If that is too challenging, gaze at a picture of a corpse instead.
Travel movies of someone's boring vacation can be useful. Play them - now this is important - at half speed. Limit yourself to one hour per session, or you might get overstimulated.
Sleep is perhaps the most important part of the program. However many hours you sleep at night, increase that amount by 50 per cent. So if you are an eight-hour-a-night fellow, go for 12. A small assist can had by drinking a glass of warm milk laced with Benedryl and having Mommy sing to you.
A complete cure may take as long as three or four weeks. During this period we have every hope of making the blog more interesting.
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Mablelostallhermarbles, there is nothing wrong with me but I'm beginning to have a hunch what's wrong with you. I might be willing to help you out if you weren't so far away but I'm sorry, I don't do road gigs. I'm strictly local.
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"I think the most reasonable take is that Obama is probably doing just fine."
Sounds like this little chat must have been a great relief for you Justin.
Just remember you were chatting with a man who backed losers.
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And yet at the bottom of this link, the writer, Brook Jackson, in an attempt to prove the tax hikes by Obama false, only admits that they 'may' increase a little, but only if you earn over 250 thousand dollars.... except the minor increase of,.. gosh , just read the link
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/would_obama_tax_my_profits_if_i.html
Its comical to say the least, "no new taxes'.. like we haven't heard that before.
sigh, great olympic night
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90, Marcus.
Hew local? From Hewston Street?
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"Excuse me! It seems the first place to go for "stated policies"
Ed:
Perhaps you use the self-promotional material of a candidate to make decisions about their policies. I preefer not to.
It's extremely difficult to find information that does not have interpretation. That is why I choose to find data, when it is available.
I'm quite sure that Obama will not "tax my water". That is a relief. But he will certainly increase the capital gains tax rates as well as the tax on dividends. He will tax home sales. He has stated very loudly that when the current tax cuts run out, he and the dems in congress will not renew them.
Thus, tax rates across the board will increase sharply at a time of economic weakness.
He has supported protectionism, as he has claimed that all our trade agreements need to be "revisited". That is code for protectionism - and not very subtle code.
Do our trading partners care?
It is impossible to measure the damage this will do to the economy. While the squealing masses scream and shriek about how wonderful Obama is, and throw themselves before him in convulsions of adoration, he is planning with the dem congress to break the back of the economy.
Once again, the militant stupidity of his "policies" cannot be meaured. But what difference does mere data make?
Obama is loved. He is the focus of a weird frenzy of passionate emotion, both here and in other nations - including this blog.
All of that schoolgirl frenzy is frightening because there is no place for logic or thought.
When challenged, Obama's followers respond like a cult: "Don't ask me to THINK! Can't you see that I am in love!"
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86, Xie.
The only news people get about the Middle East is superficial and usually inaccurate.
In those Middle Eastern countries that are "friends" of the U.S., bubbling beneath the surface is great discontent. The people feel that their leaders have sold them out. Meanwhile the leaders fear revolution.
Most Arabs, like most of us, just want to get on with their lives. They may not approve of their government, but they have other things to think about. But some political firebrands, frustrated by inaction for the Arab cause and full of hate for the West, may seek redress by violence.
There is no mystery.
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Xie_Ming
What is your opinion of Arab genocide in Sudan, that is Arabs in Sudan committing mass murder of Black Africans as in ethnic cleansing?
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95, Timothy.
Not all Obama supporters are swooning in adoration. I, for one, am a rational, independent voter - fiscally conservative and socially progressive. Is there a clone of me out there that I can vote for? No. The closest I ever came to one was Ross Perot.
So, in choosing my candidate I have to decide what issues are most important to me. They are:
#1. End the war in Iraq and don't start any new ones.
#2. Restore our right to privacy and get rid of the influence of the quasi-dictator who took it from us.
#3, Destroy the power of the lobbyists and special interest groups. (Probably a pipe dream. I will settle for partial success.)
There are things I don't like about Obama, most particularly his extending a health-care system which is corrupt and vastly overpriced. He hasn't suggested fixing it.
I am voting for Obama. I promise not to squeal or faint when they put the crown on his head.
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dominick, should I have to get rude.
you say
"Like you said, that left us no choice but to intervene, destroy the training camps and remove the Taleban from power since it was fairly clearly that they were in cahoots with Al Qaeda."
can you show me where I said ANYTHING like this?
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in fact I am not sure what post you are refering to.
Do you think it would have been acceptable for the royal air force to bomb Dublin as a response to the Harrods bombing?
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and what is more the seed of 9/11 was created in the states.
pooh pooh to me, I know, but the"i wish I could steel a plane and fly it into the trade towers" is a quote from the diary of one of the columbine killers.
before 9/11.
maybe financed but not nessasarilly inspired.
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But it's wrong to say that he's proposing such taxes now.
The short answer to our reader's question is, no, this message isn't real. It's a pack of lies.
doug this is how the article ends.
not quite as you put it.
timmy your on tv now
"All of that schoolgirl frenzy is frightening because there is no place for logic or thought."
is that the schoolgirl"she IS SO a BITCH" stuff that seems to be coming out from the right.
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101, Jack.
I don't think you can pin that on the Columbine killers. Planes have flown into skyscrapers before. One flew into the Empire State building in the forties. It was an accident. The pilot was buzzing the building for fun.
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#1. End the war in Iraq and don't start any new ones.
#2. Restore our right to privacy and get rid of the influence of the quasi-dictator who took it from us.
#3, Destroy the power of the lobbyists and special interest groups. (Probably a pipe dream. I will settle for partial success.)
There are things I don't like about Obama, most particularly his extending a health-care system which is corrupt and vastly overpriced. He hasn't suggested fixing it.
I am voting for Obama. I promise not to squeal or faint when they put the crown on his head.
allmymarbles:
The war in Iraq will not end through wishful thinking. Whatever we think about the war, we are there now - and Obama has not presented anything resembling a serious plan to leave, except fatuous time-tables that belong to a fantasy world.
As for increased beuracracy: Obama is on the far left, and they love beuracracy. We will swap the Bush intrusion for the far-left intrusion.
I live outside Chicago. Obama is known to be on the far left. It is funny and terrible to watch people here carry on as if he were a reasonable moderate. I would be happy to see a blu-dog Dem as president. But Obama is standard left-wing ideologue, circa 1935.
As for lobbyists - that is absurd.
Obama and the clowns who are in control of congress are in the pockets of the lobbyists and do their bidding. Obama is a very weak and passive politician who changes his views every few minutes in his desperate desire to be worshiped and loved. Do you really believe HE will stand up to the lobbyists?
He will be the pawn for Pelosi, Reid, Salazar and the rest of those thugs who even keep the moderates in the Dem party quiet.
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yea but we been through this before i think.
really do you think Osama did not watch news,. you are not one of those that think he is always hiding in a cave with only a goat for entertainment.
I would suggest that flying a airliner into a building deliberately is new.
Not that I am denying the possibility of it being a great conspiracy either.
I just do not believe serendipity is passed up by all.
and if I were sitting(as OBL was)trying planning an attack and I heard that news.I would not let it go until I had proven to myself it would not work.
I'm not saying Bush had nothing to do with it.
I am saying that in chronilogical order.
Guys kill fellow students
press reports contents of diary.
al quada attacks trade towers.
that that is suspicious as an add agency asking "what can brown do for you."
sorry
jack
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"Not that I am denying the possibility of it being a great conspiracy either."
jack: Where do these weird conspiracy theories that blame Americans for 9/11 belong in this discussion? Where do they belong at all, except a garbage can?
Back to the topic...
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timmy you are so "special"
those conspiracies are every where, but they are not what I talk of.
I am talking about the though to fly jets into the trade towers, not the plan on how to.just the idea(something maybe you have no experience of).
Now listen carefully.
"go hire bowling for colombine." in it a reporter quotes from one killers diary how he"wants to hijack an airliner and fly into the trade towers"
No conspiracy just the rants of a kid in his diary.
If you want conspiracies go to the Media.
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Do you think the UK should have bombed dublin?
Timmy. oh your on TV gotta go
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104, Timothy.
You sound like the republican version of a yellow-dog democrat. You spout nothing but republican cant.
I am more moderate than you are. I told you what my priorities are, and that I am willing to take the bad of Obama along with the good. But your world is black and white. Everything he does or says is worthless. That is very narrow-minded of you. And coming from Chicago does not validate your extreme bias.
As for war, it is your republican heros that are hungering for war in Iran. It is certainly not Obama. And, I repeat, the most important criterion for my chosing a candidate was his stance on war. Obama talks negotiation, not boom, boom, boom.
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"You sound like the republican version of a yellow-dog democrat. You spout nothing but republican cant."
marbles:
Because I oppose Obama, I therefore must be an extreme Republican?
No. that's not accurate. The world is not made up of just those two views. It's called "independent thinking".
And you didn't respond to any of the points I made. Is that an indication that you are in agreement?
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110, Timothy, re: last paragraph
No, it means I have expressed myself clearly once. Twice is overkill.
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allmymarbles, re: your #1 wish,
Do you know that there are many "in the know" in Washington and London that believe that a hot war with Iran may only be a matter of time? Yes, Obama will probably eschew it more than McCain, but if Iran did something very bad then no political backbone would be strong enough to prevent war. I'm not naive enough to think that the US presidency holds the power of the nation.
The mere presence of an Iraq (run by) friendly to the US, and containing US troops is anathema to Iranian fundamentalism and it's desires for the Iraqi south (and the holiest shrines of the Shia). Imagine how intolerable it is for Iran to have the US in the nations all around it (Turkey, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, etc.).
The choice for the next president of the US may be to surrender Iraq to its own fate, or remain awhile with continued hot rhetoric and frequent diplomatic brinkmanship, or someone might do something really stupid (like seizing 15 British marines and sailors) resulting in a hot war.
I'd like to bring in Mr. Churchill, and quote "it is time for jaw-jaw, not war-war."
Iran's desires for nuclear power (if we can be sure that's all they are), its desire for security guarantees, and for the end of world isolation are reasonable exchanges if the US can get Iran to end support for terror (e.g. Hezbollah), and agree like Libya, not to pursue any WMD programs (ballistic missiles, chemical, biologic, nuclear). I hope the next Mr. President makes that happen. I also think it is important for the US to remain firm but fair. Projecting weakness seems to embolden the crackpot dictators of the world.
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#96
In addition to your on-the ground-experience in the area, you (and any reader interested) should check the
Caregie Endowment website
They have some real Iranian experts talking about the real leader of Iran, Kahemeni.
Robin Lustig's blog also has an extensive look at Israel's aggressive intentions toward Iran.
___________________________
Understandably, many American posters here have swallowed the various lines about why American forces are in Iraq and are surrounding Iran.
The obvious is too clear: old-fashioned imperialism for oil, advanced bases and (in this case) Israel.
Few are aware that Britain went in for oil and advanced bases in 1916-1926, made the same mistakes, and also failed.
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Ref 86
"For Bin Laddin to keep getting volunteers, something has to be causing them to join-what do you suppose it could be?"
In my opinion, the rationale for 9/11 (regardless of how twisted and evil it may be) and all the other attacks against US facilities and individuals throughout the Middle East, can be discerned from the Fatwah issued by Osama bin Laden before 9/11 in which he demanded the closure of US military in he vicinity of Mecca and Medina. A presence that is widely viewed as sacriligeous by Islamic fundamentalists. Since then, the overt hatred against America and our allies has grown exponentially as a result of our decision to expand our presence in the Middle East and insist on the introduction and adoption of Western principles in the region.
It is painfully evident that Al Qaeda has no problem finding volunteeers. I suspect that in addition to ideological considerations and reaction to our decision to invade Iraq, the poverty and ignorance that afflicts the masses throughout one of the wealthiest parts of the world may also be a factor. I suspect those masses resent more than just us, and would not hesitate to overthrow the regimes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan if they had a chance to do it.
Ref 112
I think it is important to remember that the secular regime of Saddam Hussein was at war with Iran and was considered a nemesis of Islamic fundamentalism. When we removed Saddam and his Baathists from power we removed one of the most important barrier to Islamic expansionism. We compounded the problem by putting in power Shiites aligned spiritually to Iran, a fact that is evident every time Shia leaders like Moqtada al Sadr go to Iran for instructions.
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I saw Charile Rose's interview of Richard Holbrook last night. He is America's former ambassador to the UN. Rose's interview as always was masterful. He is IMO the best interviewer on the planet. (his competition often looks pathetic except for Leon Charney.) Holbrook had been a supporter of Clinton but like all of the Clintonistas active in the Democratic party he danced around his former position and is endorsing Obama. His lame excuse...he had personal ties and obligations to the Clintons. What an inadvertent admission of a thoroughly corrupt individual, he endorsed a candidate for president because he was their friend.
Listening to Holbrook's opinions based on facts, I have come to the conclusion that not only is he out of touch with reality of the consequences of much of what he advocates, Obama will be an unmitigated disaster for American foreign policy if he is elected. BTW, he admitted that America is on excellent terms with India and China, (also Japan, that's half the world right there) has saved countless millions of lives that would have been lost to AIDS in Africa (spent 15 billion on it since 2003 and Bush has asked Congress for another 45 billion for it.) IMO the only place Bush is not really popular is Europe which should be written off as a loss of no particular importance. Russia doesn't like him either. Tough.
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ref #67
Dominick I dont think you can limit blind devotion to either party. Both have people who will vote blindly.
Mass voters will vote for a Kennedey even though most of them are a disgrace. John Kerry who is an empty suit always gets relected.
But with Obama there are many not you who have a messianic devotion. They will throw out race or evil acusations if you dare to disagree that he is the second coming
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Ref 113
While I have no doubt that control of Iraq's oil production was a consideration, and that establishing military bases next to our perceived nemesis - Iran - was a high priority, I believe there were other factors considered in the decision to invade that developing nation.
In my opinion, political and economic imperatives such as the need to transform our President into a war hero to improve his re-election chances, expanding business opportunities for American firms and generating employment at a time when we were having a recession, finding an excuse to justify our $600B defense budget, keeping our arms industry flourishing after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the absence of major military threats and, last but not least, a chance to get even for the affront suffered by Messrs. Cheney and Rumsfeld when their contract bids on behalf of Halliburton and Bechtel were turned down by Saddam's regime and given to Russian and French companies were all part of the equation. Obviously, the utopian goal of a democratic country embracing Western values in the heart of the Middle East was also a major factor considered by our naive leaders.
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Ref 116
"Messianic" devotion (I like this term) to political candidates is a bipartisan quality. There are, indeed, many Democrats who would vote for their candidate, regardless of who he/she is and what they stand for, simply because of party affiliation; but the same is true for most members of the Republican party.
The difference, however, is that you seldom see Republicans voting for Democrats; while Dems are notorious for voting for moderate Republican candidates.
In my case, I wish we had a viable third party representing the center of our ideological base. In my modest opinion, most Americans are neither right nor left wing fanatics. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle, with some of us being very concerned about fiscal matters, civil liberties, the economy, and trade issues while others feel very strongly about abortion and gay marriage, or about military might, social and other issues.
With only two candidates to choose from we have no choice but to sacrifice some of our convictions and values in favor of electing someone whose overall agenda is closest to what is important to us.
I am far from being too excited about Obama, in fact, I don't think he is as eloquent and clear as some people think he is and I disagree with some of his positions, but I prefer his platform and the hope and confidence that emanate from his persona to the lack of ideas and old ruinous concepts coming from the McCain camp.
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#114
Bin Laddin's primary goal is to overthrow the existing Muslim regimes and establish a fundamentalist state over the former extent of Islam (Spain to Uzbekistan, etc.)
This ideology of the (imaginary) Caliphate appeals to (mostly the young) idealists.
The actions of Israel and the USA generate a burning hatred among many, and (most especially) those who have suffered from those actions.
As Allmymarbles keeps pointing out, the majority everywhere are moderates who just want to get on with their lives.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Timothy,
I went there because you referred EXPLICITLY to , and I asked you for examples.IF you have actually read the screed from your factcheck link, and still can't see the truth, perhaps you should follow Ms Marbles' advice to the Orificial One.
In the meantime, i shall continue to critically examine what the candidates themselves or their official campaigns actually say.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Darkest Orifice,
Only for those who dring the Zionist Kool-ade. To the rest of us, Fatah and Hamas can be seen to be the unfortunate but natural outcome of the unfortunate attempt to impose a (mostly) European colony upon Palestine, against the will of the vast local majority - and of the violent displacement and dispossession of that majority in order to establish a faux democracy.Read some history
One man's Zionist is another man's terrorist.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Ed Uglyheart
Perhaps in your world, someone who straps on a vest with a bomb it it, goes into a restaurant and kills as many civilian patrons as they can is a moderate because you sympathize with their reasons. In my world, the real world, that's still a terrorist.
This is an example of why any relationship between the US and Europe is finished. People of my mindset don't consider your world moderate either.
If your world gets what it hopes for, the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States, that will only bring about the cataclysm sooner. The rest of us will pick up the pieces of what is left of our nation after he and his friends get done with it and put it back together as best as we can. Who will be around to put your world back together? Gordon Brown? David Cameron? Nicolas Sarkozy? Angela Merckel? I'll stay right where I am. My only regret is that the Atlantic isn't as wide as the Pacific.
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ref #118
Dominick we may be agreeing more than either of us thought. I would like a third party canidate too. But I have to admidt to being pragmatic, I want one who is viable.
Barr and Nader can only be spoilers.
But as an example of republicans voting for Democrats how about Bill Clinton or in CT with Joe Lieberman
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Some Remarkable prescience (check the date)
and, brought up to date, on topic.
Enjoy
Salaam, etc.
ed
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And, l Also from the Wall Street Journal, a fan letter for Obama
Methinks McCanute has a job on his hands...
;-)
ed
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Ed is it any wonder people ALL around the world hate these americans.
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Marcus were you watching Bill moyers last night. Washington week or the charlie Rose show.
Never do these shows back up what you say.
strange. that but then you never say what others do correctly because by tthe time it has gone through the filters of your sieve like mass of fat contained in your head, it comes out as garbage best suited to feed to Myjerkin and timmoney.
they are the only ones foolish enough to go for it.
You all should form a club.
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Correction
;-(
ed
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Frigid,
Wouldn't you feel a bit uneasy in such a situation? Whether or not you had designs on "the Iraqi south"? Especially remembering that the last time Iraq was "friendly" with the USA, it attacked Iran....One more time:
Can anyone give me an example of Iran attacking or invading any country in the past century or so?
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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ref #131
How about thier terrorist army Hezbollah firing missles into Israel and instigating a cival war in Lebanon.
It may be ifficult for you to understand Iran and Islamic facism is the Nazi threat of this century.
That is not being Pro American or Pro Israel it is reality.
But go ahead Ed subscribe to the Neville Chamberlen, Nelson Mandela, Jimmy Carter theory of appeasement.
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Magic,
Yeah! Right!Read onIt's Israeli expansionism which has been appeased, in case you hadn't noticed. But not all Jews are s blind to the reality of Zionism's Chutzpah:Salaam, etc.
ed
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#112 RealFrigid None of these states are "nations". There borders were deliberately constructed across ethnic/religious boundaries by Britain and France.
"Nations" are self identified by their citizens, not imposed from outside. There are many factors involved in creating a national identity. These include history, ethnicityreligionand language
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Thanks for those maps, Oldnat
Slainte!
ed
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One's called facts, the other is called logic.
mostly erronous.
you have yet to EVER prove your point using either logic or facts during any discussion here on this site.
as to training mules I think again your method is flawed. You will not get a very good mule from hitting it with a 2x4 but you will get arrested for animal cruelty.
as to the frogs.
when you send me the 350000000 euros I will post hem to you. there will be a lead time of 119863 days.
You are pathetic I have shown you and all my skill.
You have shown nothing. no skills at analysisng, no skill at writing,not skill whatso ever.
so do you think making stupid fantasies about frogs across america is clever?
Check the automotive junk yards for material. You are familiar with junk yards aren't you?
automotive junk yards are a watse of time visiting , ,not much solid stock in a car.
again your so called knowlage lets you down.
next you will be back to telling me to shoe a horse.
(which I would do proudly if I knew how).
as for john Edwards.
who cares.... he is not the nominee.
so did McCain.
So would you if any woman would go near you, without you first having to"ply them with liquor".
A sad and sorry soul you are.
As to Bill Moyers.
OK but what about washington week and Charlie Rose.
It is you that keeps telling all the Brits and the rest of the world here how excellent PBS is.
How much better than any others.
Then you forget that Bill is one of the most respected journalists for PBS.
And that your God Charlie really likes him, and respects his opinion.
You are so out of wack with your own opinions I suspect you are the fraud Old nat keeps refering to.
As to both your and myjerk views on zionism and the problems for the middle east, the BBC so called bias,etc.
Appeasement to Israel is OK then.
you are fools.
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as for you other post mentioning impeachment for obama should he get in.
No impeachment will be possible again until GW and DICK are on the stand.
Even those that did do their duty and signed and fought(and not for you) that voted for Bush last time are saying " I was lied to""impeach that son of a "
Until the two biggest lying fraudsters that are in right now are impeached then there will be no other impeachment hearings.
Can you imagine trying to get Obama on a blow job when two traitors that
ruined the economy(a terrorist action)
the enviroment we live in.(tax breaks for hummers and trucks).
lied multiple times to everyone.
started a war on lies they knew to be false.etc ,
can you imagine saying to the house a blow job is so important.
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A Well earned rest!
Enjoy the surf, young man!
Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you
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#133 #144
It would be well to save #144, as the same false mantras are continually repeated. For more current examples, see Robin Lustig's blog on Israel/Iran.
#112 and #135
It is correct to refer to them as "states", rather than as "nations". However, #112's point is completely valid- aggressive forces from the USA have surrounded Iran and the USA makes threats, both on its own and through is supposed proxy, Israel.
[I am not sure who is the proxy here, but I suspect, based on the Mearsheimer and Walt report and other evidence, that it is the USA that is the manipulated puppet.]
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Such anger, where's the love and what's the topic? Frogs? Tin Knocker, 119863 days, how many years is that in Rio Linda? Just kiddin', you couldn't afford to live there, neither can I.
So this is argy-bargy, I like it. Kinda like starting a bar fight for fun, only with words.
Ed #129
The link to the WSJ, are they kidding about BHO, who with a mind doesn't know that the value of the dollar directly coresponds to the cost of fuel,... oh I get it, you were showing the 'ignorant' side of the canidate. I agree, absolutly probably I agree.
oldnat #135
Exactly right, they were created by History, and it was done from the outside. Regardless of your take on it, the map of the world "is".
As to being the police of the world as well as Judge, Jury and Executioner, I like us being in that role, not one of the 'lesser' countries. Talk about argy-bargy. HA!
filioque, peace, redemtion
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ref #134
You conviently forget Israel won the land when they were attacked in 48,67.
Israel has never wanted to exterminate Arabs?
In fact they have honored their peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan.
The Palestininan leadership has demonstated no honor or desire to keep their word.
But seems to be acceptible for you and Jackforge to blame the U.S and Israel for all the problems instead of the terrorists and their masters the Iranians.
That is why you both are anti-semities and terrorist appeasers!!
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Magic,
Israel struck first in both instances - FACTNo, just to expel them, but failing that, they have proceeded to killand imprison them in great numbers
Open your eyes.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Doug,
Apparently inversely, if you look at the dollar over the last week...;-)
ed
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#141 Doug
Of course the map is as it is. However, if you're going to be "the police of the world as well as Judge, Jury and Executioner", then it makes sense to be a little more knowledgeable about the places you are going to interfere in.
Imperial powers will always meddle with weaker countries, in their own interests, and just because they can.
However, Imperial countries with stupid and/or ignorant leaders lose far more troops and money than they need to - as you're currently doing in Iraq.
But, hey, you've got a large population, and you won't miss some of them - they're poor anyway, so that won't bother your voters.
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For Magic,
A Parable
;-)
ed
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Ed 144
Exactly, the cost of fuel(oil) has dropped 30 dollars to 115 on Friday from 145 because the value of the dollar is up, as well as supply being high due to the high cost at the pump.
Reallly though, everyone got a tune up and aired thier tires.
Xie_Ming,#140
You may be correct that we're the proxy nation, hadn't thought of that, very Jacobian thinking.
Ed and Magic
Question on my part as in Israel and Palistine I am ill informed. Is the current thinking in Israel the same as in 1895 and 1940 respectfully?
In todays order of; 'the Religion' vs. 'the Establishment', which is primary for Palistine/Israel accord to attain peace?
To say better maybe, is Judism in the way for the Palistinians to better themselves? Is the conflict based on religion or property?
american legion
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oldnat #145
Again I believe your right, some of the poor, but I think they're yours. I think war is ignorant when done for no reason. Iraq, should of played maybe a better hand, did well with others help, lets all just finish and go.
This is moot is it not? Are they not saying that OBL and the Terrorist camps are in Pakistan? The Northern Aliance, are they a 'Good' government? Seems the warlords all joined the hunt for Taliban (now bad) and a soveriegn government in exile.
Again I claim ignorant. Enduring Freedom seem to have miss placed the enemy.
but the devil, as the old saw has it, is in the details
migrate, mutate, adapt or die
peace
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#148 MA2
It may be the placement of the 2x4 that is the problem. Sometimes leveage is better, sometimes plugging an arse will get a rise!
argy bargy, this is good
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Doug,
On property, and the violent EXpropriation and displacement of the majority population. It has little to do with "religion" and much to do with property, and the fact that folk who were driven out of their homes and farms in 1948 are still languishing in refugee camps sixty years later, sometimes showing the keys to their property to grandchildren born in to refugee status.....The UN version, for those with the patience to read and learn..;-((((
ed
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Ref 147
I think you are correct about the correlation of declining gas prices to rises in the value of the dollar. However, I would add to that that the recent reduction in driving in the USA has also had a major impact in the decline in oil prices. Less demand while supplies remain constant influence the price of all commodities.
The consequence of a sharp decline in oil prices is that drilling in the USA may once again become unprofitable, which would make the off-shore drilling option a chimera.
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Doug,
In the minds of some, but by no means all. It's complicated.And the rest, as they say, is history...;-(
ed
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Israel's been given a choice by the Islamists, destroy them or be destroyed by them. Those are their only choices. After 60 years of trying to reason with them, make peace with them, it should be clear to even the simplest dolt that it won't work. Whatever concessions Israel makes would only be a prelude to more demands leading to its ultimate destruction. Each piece of land it gives up just makes it more vulnerable to the next wave of attack. The land given back in Gaza was used only to lauch rockets at Israel. The land given back in Lebanon is used by Hezbollah to plan and launch attacks on Israel. The time to talk about peace is over. It's time for Israel's people and government to wake up and face the only choice left, attack and maybe die or don't and certainly die. The rest on either side is just empty headed rhetoric.
The Arabs have no rights to anything. Their four genocidal wars have abrogated whatever rights they might have once conceivably had.
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Anus,
Bovine Faeces!Complain about this comment
#142 #143
Genocide is a matter of intent, rather than of body count.
In the final hours of the British Mandate, the Israelis began a very bloody genocide.
This shifted to ethnic cleansing, but the orders were to "kill" any Palestinians who sought to return to their homes. Uri Avnery was there and received the orders, along with his fellows.
#147 Raises the question is it "religion or greed?" The short answer is "both".
Robin Lustig's blog about Israel/Iran has a lot more exposition of the matter. Over-simplified:
Fundamentalist religious fanatics, although in a minority, control Israeli politics. Many accept the teaching that any gentile in Israel must be either a servant or killed.
The Likud (Netanyahu) are committed to "Greater Israel" and want the gentiles out, by whatever means. As ultra-rightists, I suspect that greed is more important to them.
The "settlers" are not much admired in Israel. My take is that they will attempt to steal anything they can while crying "G-d gave it to us".
The "demographic problem" is something that worries everybody (this refers to the Arab birthrate).
Baruch Goldstein made speech about it and then went into a mosque, shooting more than 150 Muslims. An Israeli captain shot an 11 year-old girl picking flowers along a fence and then went out and emptied his clip into her.
As you know, demographic projections are based on the number of females of child-bearing age.
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Doug, unlike the two of you I have not spent my life doing the required stretching exercises.
I think you two should stick to each other.
marcus I have invited you and any one you wish to bring along(doug) to prove you metal.
by the way doug the drunken texArsen
Do you know what leverage is?
or are you maybe as ignorant on that as most of your responses.
and as for argy bargy , you still arn't quite getting it right.
Do carry on.
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And as for Mostly erronious , majerkins, views on Israel.
If you feel it is fine to feel that way.
and if you wish to promote genocide just remember.
You will really see anti semitism(as you call it).
Or are you all going to move to the war zone to be safe.
you anti semites
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The Arabs have no rights to anything.
OK fairs fair in debate.
The Jews have no right to anything.
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Ed,
Thanks, now I see the situaton for what is is, but I don't understand the contention, 61 years later. Please, do not missunderstand, I feel for the loss as I do for any peoples that lose a war and are driven from their homes, curiously just as the jews were driven from Poland, Germany and many other places during WWII.
Seems like life here is mimic-ing musical chairs, the Palistine people ended with no chair.
Is this saying the Jews have a 'right' to the land of Israel, because they took (won) it?
Now the question arises of the proxy power giving them (Israel) the power to stay, is it the UN that reconises Israel or the US that supplies?
How would 'You, and I'm asking all' solve this in real terms. Israel is not leaving, the Palastinians evidently have land where they are, other than argumentive with he said they said, what can be done?
If Mexico were to take Texas through war, I would be displaced to say, Oklahoma. Would I stay and wish for my property back, or move to say Nevada or New Youk, see, as someone with freedom to start again elsewhere, this all is ,... hmm odd.
Is the size a the world smaller there?
Is the prejudice of other countries so harsh as to keep the Palistinians there?
Man I am showing my lack of global anything here a I am sure. My wordly travel is to Columbia , Venezuela, Peru and Mexico, and they just come here or go somewhere else they don't like.
again, boils down to migrate, mutate adapt or die.
purpose defined
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ref #147
In answer to part of your question. In Israel's case from it's birth in 48, Moslems and Christians have full rights.
In the case of the Plaestinians and their terrorist allies, they use religion as an excuse for terrorism. By the way the Land belonged to wealthy Arabs from other countries not to the so called Palestinians.
That is why the Nbaka is a joe.
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wow is real ? has used the land it was given to attack.
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Vindication of McCain:
Much is being made of McCain being called a
maverick. There can be five types of definition of a word: dictionary definition;
stipulative; precising; disambiguating and theoretical. Several convenient definitions are being bandied about by McCain's detractors. However, the standard meaning
of words are dictionary definitions and Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary defines a maverick as "an independent individual who does not go along with a group or party". There is no gainsaying that
about McCain.
While he is accommodative where possible, he puts his foot down on things which matter most in his eyes (conscience).
McCain being a senior, has not dimmed that quality in him as has been the case with a fair number of senior political stalwarts in
the recent past, although being a maverick
may be noted in younger individuals generally.
( P.S.This is the complete version of my comment No.85 which appears on this page and which could not be completed due to unavoidable circumstances).
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161 how do we solve it now. Good question, I agree no ones going back now ,
but the answers are pretty easy.
They will not stop all terrorist attacks (including jewish terrorists), I doubt that is possible when there is so much bad blood.
It worked in the Irish situation.
America need not give Isreal qyuite so many high tech weapons.
Force the Israelis to let IAEA inspectors in, and begin disarming their nuke arse nil.
Leave Gaza and the west bank. compensate those that lost property.
let them have jobs.
have hospitals that are not shut because there is no power.
Stop trying to starve them to death.
Stop trying to kill them all.
All the palistinians can do in protest is shout and fight.
The american military help of the Israeli illegal actions, including the seige of gaza, should stop.
If we cannot be fair then we (america especially) should get out and leave them to their own follies. Much as you always say about domestic issues.
Stop your president(they al do) siding with Israel about everything.
A few soldiers got captured or shot and the israelis bombed a nation.
If you cannot see that as Bull then you are as dumb as I regularly accuse you of being.
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112, Real.
My #1 was not a "wish."
Maybe the "people in the know," want a war with Iran for reasons they have not stated. Could it be that they want to control one of the last two countries in the Middle East that are not under western control? Could it be that they want Iran's oil? Why not go after Syria instead? Well Syria is not as great a prize, is it. It has no valuable resources.
I don't believe it has anything to do with fundamentalism or nuclear capability. It has to do with sovereignty and power.
It is simplistic to think that Iran has dreams of blowing up Israel or any other place. In the first place that do not care that much about Israel. That talk is probably for the benefit of their Arab neighbors. Solidarity and all that.
The Iranians are not crazy. They are politicians not dissimilar to our own. They blather and beat their chests, mostly for the benefit of their own citizens. Sound familiar?
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or we could invite them to come live here in the states.
We have the space and the americans have already killed most of the locals
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#161
What is at issue is the land occupied AFTER 1967.
The UN says "get out"; the Arab powers say "go back to the 1967 line".
With "minor modifications", the majority on both sides agree to this.
But what about the "right of return"? to go back into what is now recognized as "Israel"? Israel says "no way"! "How about compensation, then?" Reponse: "How about compensation for Jews kicked out all over the World?"
Solution: kick out the "settlers", go back to the 1967 line, forget the right of return.
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#162
Is false on several counts. Israel is a religio/ethnic state, controlled by fundamentalists. The government practices intense discrimination, especially through the "knitted skullcaps" from the separate education system.
This legal and practical discrimination is the reason the Israel still has no Constitution- there is no way to reconcile the reality with an organic law applicable to all.
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have to say clintons 'let them vote for me as well , just for giggles.
is another example of her crazyness.
one delusional nutter there.
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Justin, Re: 166. What did I do now?
By the way, when I sorted for my name, the comment was there.
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#169
One should recognize that there are many serious citizens in Israel who do not at all share in the fanaticism and ethnic cleansing and seek to defend the victims against the oppression organized by the Israeli state.
Here are some of them:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
PHR-Israel, established in 1988, is dedicated to promoting and protecting the medical human rights of residents of Israel and the Occupied Territories. PHR-Israel opposes the subjugation of medical care to political considerations and fights against breaches of medical human rights by the Israeli authorities. PHR-Israel also works to rectify and prevent breakdowns in health care delivery in the West Bank.
The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI)
An apolitical organization dedicated to the elimination of torture as a means of interrogation by Israel's security forces. PCATI is the only organization in Israel exclusively devoted to the issue of illegal interrogation. PCATI documents, monitors and responds to cases of illegal interrogation, ill-treatment and police brutality within Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian National Authority.
Rabbis for Human Rights
The only organization in Israel today concerned specifically with giving voice to the Jewish tradition of human rights. RHR has helped numerous individuals, publicized causes, engaged in civil disobedience, lobbied the Knesset and participated in a landmark high court case limiting the scope of the army to abuse human rights under the guise of security.
Yesh Din ? Volunteers for Human Rights
An Israeli not-for-profit organization comprised of women and men who have come together to take concrete action against the constant human rights abuses inflicted on the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The members of the organization come from diverse personal, professional and political backgrounds, but share a deep concern for the significant damage these abuses are causing Palestinian and Israeli societies. To ensure the effectiveness of its action, Yesh Din is assisted by legal, human rights and media professionals.
Recall the earlier note that the majority in Israel are not fundamentalist religious fanatics, but that political control rests with the fanatics.
Btselem has URLS for many such organizations.
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While I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians and believe they are victims of cultural and religious intolerance, the fact is that Israel is not going to go away. Displacing Jews from their homes to allow Palestinians to return to their ancestral homes is not going to happen. Israel has the most powerful military in the region, including nuclear weapons, and has the unconditional support of the most powerful nation in the world, the USA.
Considering the circumstances, the best thing the Palestinians could do is accept their fate and negotiate an agreement leading to the creation of a sovereign nation encompassing th Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Hopefully, the EU and rich Arab nations, such as Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf states, will provide them with the economic assistance needed to build an infrastructure, industry, health and education institutions and the amenities that every human being deserves. Above all, they deserve to live in peace with dignity, instead of being a subjugated ethnic group whose subsistence and living conditions is reminiscent of another group that was persecuted in Europe just a few decades ago.
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133, Magic.
You've got it all wrong. The propgandists have gotten to you. They have an agenda.
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Has anyone calculated how much it would cost the USA to compensate the Palestinians for their losses to Israel, compared to the cost of financially and militarily supporting Israel?
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John Kerry's mistake was not to be prepared to meet Bush on his own turf: RELIGION. 2004 was still a continuation of the Religious-Right/Neocons Crusade.
Kerry let himself be branded a FLIP FLOPPER, when the greatest Flip Flopper ever recorded in Western Literature is PAUL OF TARSUS who did a complete turn around on THE ROAD TO DEMASCAS.
All Kerry had to do was point this out to Bush, who is more hypocrite than knowledgable about the Bible, and he would have fatally wounded him.
Then too Kerry and Bush are members of Skull and Bones, so who knows the bylaws of tha secret faturnity.
All that I am saying is that "You can't hunt bears with a switch." So Obama had better do his homework and find out what this election is turely about.
McCain wants it to be about the Cold War because of his status as a Cold War Warrior. Even the voters themselves are confused because of the financial state of the country. Some believe we can dig up the coastlines and monuments strike oil and the price of gasoline will drop tommorrow. Never underestimate the ignorance of the American public when they see that it is cheaper to invade than talk and that growing corn for fuel has nothing to do with the price of food.
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The Clintons are problematic. They are having a hard time losing gracefully. They are getting 2 days to speak at the Convention, but Hillary wants a symbolic vote and Bill want to vent his spleen.
But when President McCain takes office, with their help, he will deal with them.
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#175
Europe has been doing much to try and help the Palestinians.
However, with the evangelicals cheering, the Bush administration has joined in the Boa constrictor ploy being used to wipe out the Palestinians.
They have no air, sea or land access without the reluctant allowance of their oppressors.
With a "viable state", progress would be rapid.
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Re: The debate about Israel.
It doesn't matter who is right.
It doesn't matter who is wrong.
It doesn't matter what the UN wants or doesn't want.
America will make the decisions.
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#172
Listed several Israeli organizations seeking to combate torture, medical blockades, military violence and other abuses of the Israeli state against their victims.
Most have free mailing lists. They are quite factual and literate. Given the situation within the government, they must constantly use the courts and legal process.
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jf #165
Thanks, answer makes sense. I also wonder about the result of trying to take away nuclear weapons from a Naton that has them. I tend to think they would use them to keep them,.. Israel because without them they are gone. Equality in this case may be far from equal
#173 Dominickvila
This is as jf answered and I wonder about. Even as Oldnat says in #175, the cost has got to be extreme. Though why just the US, doesn't the EU also support Israel?
boom boom
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162, Magic.
If you think the Moslems (actually you should say Arabs, because many Palestinian Arabs are Christian) have full rights in Israel, you are being naive.
Just a personal note. When I was in Israel I bought a small carpet. It was wrapped in an Arab language newspaper. I was stopped on more than one occasion.
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Could someone signal how to get a URL onto this board? Here are two links:
two organizations trying to reduce to the toruture and ethnic cleansing:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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The most important link to Israeli human rights organizations is the btselem website.
I will try it in this truncated form to see if it gets through:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#172, #183, #184
There seems to be a terrible problem here with listing Israeli human rights organizations, with or without URLS.
I wonder what the problem is?
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Dear Marcus,
I'm really worried about your state of mind. You seem to have gone from a semi reasoned discussion of Richard Holdbrook to sitting in the bunker screaming about the thousand year Reich. Frogs? Hitting people with 2x4? WTF is wrong with you? I know a couple of good anger management counselors you should really consider talking to.
Couple of points. Supporting a political candidate because they are your friend is not corrupt UNLESS you expect some personal gain or position you are not qualified for. We'd have to say at best 'not proven' at this point. We all support our friends. Well, those of us who have some.
With regards to your opinions on America's relationship with Europe, it should be noted that the vast majority of Americans, want good relationships with most nations.
The greatest tool we have for that is diplomacy, something which has been sorely lacking over the past few years. One of the reasons for that is that prime ambassador positions, critical for good diplomacy, have been staffed with heavy contributors to the Bush / Cheney campaigns and not professional diplomats. Turning this roles into a reward and posting crony slackers abroad is not only corrupt, it's stupid.
Ironically, most Americans are not isolationists who want to withdraw from the world, just as most Europeans don't hate America. Your views are sadly out of step with most of the country.
The polls show that an awful lot of people in an awful lot of places at best think George Bush is dangerous, at worst a bumbling fool. Very few populations have a net favorable view. While South America, Europe, Asia, Africa and the rest are puzzled that folks like W and Reagan could get elected they generally don't turn that into hatred of America.
I'm lucky enough to travel a lot and my experience around the world has told me that other countries do watch American politics closely, if for no other reason than that they are one way or another affected by America's choices.
Have a great weekend,
Sam
PS there is no such thing as a Jackarse. A Jackass is a male ass. That's a made up word.
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There are many Israeli human rights organizations.
By Googling "Israeli Human Rights Organizations", the first answers will be appropriate.
Or, one may consult Robin Lustig's blog.
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Just one little point about Israel.
Dont know if you have noticed that Israel along with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and all the North African States with the exception of Lybia, have signed up to the Mediteranean Union. In effect they have become associate members of the European Union, all 294 mjillion of them. Do not know what it will mean yet, we have not beem told but herdly a vote of confidence in the United States. There is gratitude for you, especially from Israel and Egupt.
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In the US, we are not at war. All the media bows to that time honored even of the weekend. The war hots up about 5am on Mondays. This is why the results are not taken seriously. And since there is no Military Draft and only small town individuals Fall and never die, who gets excited. Tv is a marvelous thing.
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186, Sam.
A well-reasoned piece, wasted on Marcus.
You discussion of ambassadors is spot on -- donors, or political hacks on their last hurrah (the choice being between last rites or an ambassadorship).
The success of Richard Nixon's foreign policy success was partly due to choosing ambassadors on the basis of competence. For instance, got rid of the bumbling Holmes in Iran and replaced him with Richard Helms, to the delight of the Iranians. Helms, who had once been head of the CIA, was both astute and a fine diplomat.
An anecdote illustrates how the Iranians felt about the appointment. The prime minister of Iran, Amir Abbas Hoveda, an urbane and witty man, was at a formal function talking to the Russian ambassador. The Russian said to Hoveda, "How does it feel to have America's number one spy as your ambassador?" Hoveda replied, "Well, at least he is number one. Your could be more than four or five."
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90, correction.
The last sentence should read, "you could not be more than four or five."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
BTW PS 69, where did the line "'C'mon Dover, move yer bloomin' arse!" come from? No fair looking it up on the internet, either you either know it or you don't.
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#190
The Carnegie Endowment has a discussion by three Iranian experts analyzing the attitudes of the Supreme Leader- Khameni.
We need more reporting from Iran, but, so far, the BBC has not caught up with the Christian Science Monitor.
The record of expansionist aggression by the US (?) NeoCons and by Israel stands in clear contrast to any aggression by Iran.
Good reporting can expose the fraud being pitched to justify an attack against Iran.
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Israel doesn't have to worry too much about funding their defense budget. They are the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid and have been averaging $3 billion a year in aid for a very long time, about 30% of the total U.S. foreign aid budget. They are also getting an additional $2B in federal loan guarantees.
The second largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid is Egypt who gets over $1B, a bribe paid for leaving Israel alone.
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192, Marcus.
Haven't you heard about paragraphs? That's one of the reasons I don't read a lot of your stuff. I see this long page with no breaks and get dizzy.
Of course there are other reasons I don't read your stuff.
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The evangelicals have made two great contributions to American politics:
1) Prohibition and consequent permanent large-scale organized crime
2) GW Bush and ...
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Taylor Branch, U.S. author, editor. 'Blacks and Jews: The Uncivil War,' Esquire (May 1989).
Now here is a twist, how does the "infered black Muslim' , BHO, fit with this jew hatred or kinda love? Maybe here;
James A. McPherson (b. 1943), U.S. author, educator. (1989).
Americas political system pales in comparrison.
learning
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBghD0XBN5M
Hope this lightens the mood at little!
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ref #162
Can they practice their religion freely?
Yes
As a Jew I am not permitted into Mecca and Medina?
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Darling Marcus,
Sadly, I believe your first statement may be true. You may never have been more lucid.
The polls tell you what most Americans think of W, 23-30% % think he doing a good job, 66-73% think not. That puts your opinion in the margins, along with those nice folks you hang out with. So as most Americans seem to agree with most Europeans on Bush, where does that leave you guys?
For the vote I assume you are talking about Iraq? Most of those countries voted against because they didn;t believe the evidence (Jeez, I guess they were right) and the grounds for attacking Iraq did not pass the test of a just war. Sometimes, as Chiraq said at the time, 'Your best friend is the one who tries to stop you doing something wrong'. Like DUI. If you mean some other vote make yourself so I can dig out the facts for you.
As for 'You and others can distort and selectively forget the historical facts, dismiss their importance, trivialize, twist, lie or do whatever you like' kindly point out one instance where I have done that? I have not posted anything that is not factual or supportable that I am aware of, but will gladly recantif you can show otherwise.
Support or friendship does not mean money changing hands or hiring someone. Why do you always assume money has to change hands? That is so shall.
With regards to your quote, I have no idea. I think I am on safe ground in stating it was not in any well known Opera, nor is it Shakespeare or Eddie Izzard.
Have a great Saturday
Sam
BTW, the best interviewer is Jeremy Paxman. Look him up on youtube. Ralph Nader and Ann Coulter are particularly funny.
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Dominick,
This is saying "Might makes right"They have been trying to do this for several decades, but the Israelis keep expanding the settlements and ignoring UN resolutions and their own agreements.Zionism and its impact
Nakba denial (specially for Magic)
Read the "road map" and the Israeli "reservations" and then ask yourself if there is any sign that Israel wants either peace or justice.
In sadness,
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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194, Xie.
I pitch in when I can. When there was talk of Israel attacking Iran, I saw it as a setup by the U.S., to force our entry into an Iranian war. I wrote my opinions in every major blog.
That may not sound like much, but politicians read these things and I was surely not the only one exposing their scheme.
Later they said that war with Iran would only come after the election. Maybe our voice is heard. I like to think so.
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no, you must go one at a tyme., sorry majic, mood enhancement, see:
Cyril_Croydon #199
this is good, okay sad :)
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Thanks Cyril
;-)
ed
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200, Magic.
They can practice their religions freely, but there are more aspects to life than religion, One small note. Jews in Israel are allowed to carry guns. Arabs are not.
Why should any citizens be carrying guns? And why one group, but not the other? Are the Arabs more of a threat to the Jews than the Jews are to the Arabs?
Try a body count and let me know.
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Remembering
Peace to all
ed
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197, Xie.
It is the underlying puritical culture that resulted in prohibition. There is now a move to ban cigarettes, another prohibition. That is nationwide, as is puritanism.
The puritans were authoritarian bullies. "I don't do it. You can't do it." I'll bet England was glad to get rid of them.
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Doug (198),
Interesting bits. Thanks.
() ed
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188, Old.
I don't get your point. What does gratitude have to do with it?
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#203
Do read Robin Lustig's blog on Israel/Iran.
The ploy continues and Netanyahu may be the next PM of Israel!
___________________________
Concerning the UN and Iraq, Amnesty International (Roth, I suspect) has a great piece on what happened and the illegalities and pretexts involved:
hrw.org
Something like "Humanitarian Intervention".
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Concerning Iraq and the UN, see Human Rights Watch
"Humanitarian Intervention"
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#212
"States have interests, not friends" and that, of course goes in spades for the land that is getting five missile-carrying submarines.
London and Washington-make sure you behave, otherwise, like Samson, we will pull the Temple down on all your heads.
See the "Samson Option".
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207. Marcus.
All I know about frogs is that they - croak.
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213, 214, 215, Xie
I rely a lot on the grapevine for background information. To that I add common sense, knowledge of the area, and my own experience.
Lots of stuff is written on the subject, much of which has its own agenda. I have not read the pieces you mention.
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ref #214
Human Rights Watch has as much credibility as the U.N Council on human rights:
None!
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mablelostallhermarbles, everyone croaks...eventually
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Every President, elected or unelected, should have his own Redoubt; Roosevelt had East Orange, NJ. Truman had Key West. Heck, Eisenhower made Camp David for anyone. Kennedy had Hainesport; LBJ had the LBJ Ranch in Johnson City, TX. Nixon had San Clemente, Ford had Mackinaw Island, and Carter had Camp David and Plains, Georgia. Regan had the Californian Rancho del Cielo, George H. W. Bush had Kennebunkport, and Clinton used Camp David. George W. Bush has his ranch in Texas. The list goes back even before Theodore Roosevelt.
Keeping a President, even a contender, hold up to Washington or dragging through the campaign gauntlet, is not conducive to anyone’s mental health. You have to give them, their families, their staffs and their families a break sometime. You may call it a test of strength and endurance necessary for the position. I call it having a President and his administration acting like the walking wounded the minute they hit the Oval Office door.
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Ref 206
"Why should any citizens be carrying guns? And why one group, but not the other? Are the Arabs more of a threat to the Jews than the Jews are to the Arabs?"
Because the survival of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories is an essential element to preclude the creation of a Palestinian state. Israeli policy since 1967 has been designed not only to guarantee the security of the Jewish State, but to facilitate its expansion. The fact that other people are being victimized is of no consequence to Zionist fundamentalists.
Thus, the question that begs to be asked is what is the difference between Zionist terrorists and Islamic terrorists, aside from having different religious convictions? Most importantly, why are we siding with one side to the detriment of the other?
I think it is time for us to back off and let all the medieval fanatics in the Middle East deal with each other!
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#219
Having spent much of the day reading reports by, or posted on, Human Rights Watch, I am very impressed.
MIT has 1800 courses available for free downloading by anyone, anywhere. See "Open Courseware".
Their
Human Right_11-164Spring-2005\11-164Spring-2005
has a particularly informative series of readings. The one I just finished was about the Rwandan genocide. It appeared first in the Atlantic Monthly and a downloadable copy appears on the hrw website.
Several other reading were also on the hrw site and were very informative. So, based on today's experience, I can certainly recommend it.
(Of course, I imagine that they are not very diplomatic in describing what the Israeli regime is doing to the Palestinians, but then, neither are the civilized people in many Israeli human rights organizations.)
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Xie_Ming, the idea of a doomsday weapon is hardly new. Publicly it was postulated in the movie Dr. Strangelove in the 1960s. Actually all it takes is one nuclear weapon and one nuclear power plant. A nuclear weapon such as the one that destroyed Hiroshima has only about 20 pounds of uranium in it. A nuclear power plant reactor has 100 tons. Sent into the stratosphere in a nuclear explosion, it's only a matter of time measured in months or a few years before the earth's surface is uninhabitable for human beings due to radioactive fallout.
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In keeping with the moderator's preference, all names have been deleted. However, Googling "Israeli Human Rights Groups" will immediately give the names. These data describe some of the active groups
..established in 1988, is dedicated to promoting and protecting the medical human rights of residents of Israel and the Occupied Territories. ..opposes the subjugation of medical care to political considerations and fights against breaches of medical human rights by the Israeli authorities. ..also works to rectify and prevent breakdowns in health care delivery in the West Bank.
..
An apolitical organization dedicated to the elimination of torture as a means of interrogation by Israel's security forces. ..is the only organization in Israel exclusively devoted to the issue of illegal interrogation. ..documents, monitors and responds to cases of illegal interrogation, ill-treatment and police brutality within Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian National Authority.
..
The only organization in Israel today concerned specifically with giving voice to the Jewish tradition of human rights. ..has helped numerous individuals, publicized causes, engaged in civil disobedience, lobbied the Knesset and participated in a landmark high court case limiting the scope of the army to abuse human rights under the guise of security.
..
An Israeli not-for-profit organization comprised of women and men who have come together to take concrete action against the constant human rights abuses inflicted on the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The members of the organization come from diverse personal, professional and political backgrounds, but share a deep concern for the significant damage these abuses are causing Palestinian and Israeli societies. To ensure the effectiveness of its action, ..is assisted by legal, human rights and media professionals.
(Recall the earlier note that the majority in Israel are not fundamentalist religious fanatics, but that political control rests with the fanatics.)
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"The real point as noticed here by one of America's most prominent one-man bloggers, is that the Brits are actually leading the way in pointing out to the world that American faults are generally over-reported and American strengths under-reported."
Justin Webb, is that when they are drunk or sober? I'm going to have to look into this drunken Brit syndrome. I have business associates in my company who occasionally travel to London. If I find anything out, I'll post here. So far what I've found out from friends who have relatives who are on extended assignment in Britain is that if you buy an appliance and it doesn't work or breaks in normal use it is viewed by the seller and manufacturer automatically as your fault. Also if you buy groceries to be delivered and they screw up your order, you are expected to pay for them anyway. And I get the feeling it's still pretty primitive by US standards. They didn't like those little counter high refrigerators. I always felt when I lived in France, since I knew it was only going to be temporary, I could put up with almost anything. And I did.
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So Marcus,
Wrong again. Consumers in the UK are protected from bad goods by the Consumer protection act (1987). Plus the usual tort and contract law, failing that equity. With homes in both the UK and US I can reliably inform you that appliances and electronics in general are about 5-10 years ahead of the US in terms of features and functions, but more expensive (because they are 5 years ahead, think first plasma TV prices). The only exceptions are computer based products, European chinese computers are the same as US ones.
Where do you come up with this stuff? You should market yourself. Ask me a question, listen to my guidance, do the opposite. You'd make a mint.
Cheers,
Sam
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222, Dominick.
One of the reasons there is so little open criticism of Israeli is that, from the beginning, it was Israel public relations policy was to stigmatize any anti-Israeli remark as being antisemitic. It worked.
This resulted in Jews and Israel becoming synonymous, which of course they are not. From its inception, Israel adopted a plan to drive the Arabs out of Israel. They were particularly successful in the Negev and the areas along their borders. I lived for a time in a border town in southern Lebanon. There I heard endless stories of their brutality.
The Irgun and the Stern Gang were particularly imfamous terrorist groups, the latter being worse than the former. It is interesting that the leader of each one eventually became prime minister.
Some years ago I was in Israel on an assignment. I found that the Arab autonomous regions were little better than prison camps, guarded by the Israeli army. That even shocked me, and I no longer shock very easily.
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69, I get this second hand from a friend whose son is working temporarily in London for an American company. So you think Japanese consumer elecronics manufactured in China shipped to Europe are 5 years ahead of those they manufacture and export to the US. And why is that? How about some examples. BTW, I see plasma TV's disappearing and being replaced by LCD TVs. I understand many Europeans come to NYC on a shopping spree to buy electronics. Now if they were 5 years more primitive why would they do that. BTW, most times there is no argument in the US with large retailers, they just take the defective merchandise back and replace it, give a store credit, or refund the money. No hassles. Not what I hear about the UK.
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Mablelostallhermarbles
By the strangest conincidence I had a Lebanese Christian friend whose family lived in the area in the period around 1948. The way he tells it, Arabs sold their properties to Jews and left Israel on the advice of Arab governments expecting to come back when Arab armies vanquished the Israelis and get their property back for nothing. Then when it didn't happen, they cried that it was stolen from them. Typical Arab lies. I don't expect you to beleive it even if I'm sure it was probably true in many cases. That was a long time ago. What was isn't and what is now will not revert to what was.
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69 here's a well known retailer in downtown Manhattan. Give me a comparable one in London and lets compare prices. BTW, no VAT here, just about 8.5% sales tax though.
http://www.jr.com/?JRSource=GAW.JandR
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Marcus, Marcus,
You are talking to a friend who has a son who told them? That's third hand, not second.
As I noted, computer based stuff is the same, except for the voltage. Simple answer to why do Europeans come here for electronics? They don't, with one exception. So that would make you wrong. Again.
They come for iPods and clothes. iPods are the same worldwide. You see Europeans running home with European and chinese clothes, not electronics. There is a simple reason. They don't work.
Our appliances all have molded plugs attached and have transformers for the US's 120 volt supply (BTW, US power is 'dirty', so those transformers are not needed in Europe). They wouldn't work in the UK and you can't fit the right plug for the rest of Europe, plus the airlines would charge a fortune to ship a TV which would also have to be crated. Plus appliances are mostly manufactured 'locally' due to volume. Europeans get to benefit form European design, which is ahead of the US. Think supercars, sports cars, appliances, all better from Europe. Cars are maybe the best example, there isn't a single US Supercar that can go against a European. Period. In fact, I don't think there is a US supercar (but I could be wrong).
So lets take appliances in terms of being more advanced. The type of washing machine we buy now in the US with water recycling and low energy use? Available in 1995 in Europe from Bosch, Ariston etc. Plus the dryer is in the same machine, you don't need 2 so less space. That still isn't available here. Fridge / freezers, available in Europe 10 years ahead of the US. Climate zones in fridges, available 7 years ahead, again from Bosch. The leading innovators in the US, Whirlpool? European firm.
On other electronics, cell phones have had higher adoption and more advanced features throughout their lifecycle. For example texting hit Europe 5 years ahead of the US, you could download ring tones 3 years before that service was offered in the US. I had on demand TV over the interenet form the BBC 4 years ago, no such service is yet available in the US.
In the UK, go back to a store with a defective product and get an on the spot refund or replacement. Any BS and you make a phone call to the Consumer Rights folks and they take care of it for you, no lawyers no cost no worries. They enforce the law. No 'most times'. The product is deemed 'unmerchantable quality' and you choose a new one or a refund. The UK process is better than the US.
I could go on for hours. Because I live in both countries, I don't talk to a friend who had a phone conversation with their kid and take it as gospel.
Sleep well.
Sam
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Marcus,
Price again? Stuff is cheaper here, but it is older in terms of technology. That still doesn't mean it can be used in Europe or people buy it here. With the dollar plummeting of course its cheaper, gets cheaper every day. Just as your global purchasing power drops most days. Look at Gas, most of the price increases are due to the $ being in the toilet.
Go get some rest,
Sam
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BTW, NY sales tax, on top of the sticker. VAT is included in it.
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230, Marcus.
Wow, Marcus, you know one Lebanese, and this Lebanese speaks for the entire Palestinian population. I guess that makes you an expert. Typical
You are apparently unaware that the Lebanese do not like the Palestinians and resent them being in their country.
If I wanted to learn about Ukrainians, I would not ask a Russian.
You had best stick to eating.
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232, Sam.
Marcus is good at 2nd and 3rd hand. If her weren't he would have nothing to talk about. Hmm....
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In reply to #166. , allmymarbles,
Power is the key, but in all its forms. Power gives one the temporary illusion of control. A brief history of Franco/Anglo Africa (also in the newspapers lately) would show how "power" (in this case minerals, incl. uranium) ultimately resulted in tragedy and genocide across many nations.
I doubt anyone wants to invade Iran for their oil. What "they" want is control. There would be no problem if Iran acts and does things "the proper way" which is to pump the right amount and sell it for the right price to those whom "they" want to consume it. In this respect, you can look at the Saudi's who are doing what "they" want. Probably the EU would benefit from Iran's oil most, and China would suffer. Therefore, strife with Iran is probably a battle between the economic powers of the US (on behalf of the EU) against China for the resources of the middle east. It just makes sense that way.
The big question is; Who are "they"? Because it's not the guy in the White House or at #10, and it's not the select few in Congress, or in the Parliament(s). Although, "they" are the ones who help politicians get into office. I also think that to point at the multinational oil companies is a bit myopic, because "they" are probably bigger and more diverse than that. And, there are multiple alliances and factions in these economic oligarchies that transcend and shape our nations governments whether they be dictatorships or democracies. The so-called "Axis of Evil" are those nations that don't capitulate to these oligarchies, and seek to remain independent of them.
I don't think this is any big hidden society, or mystery either. It's pretty easy to figure out whose pulling the strings and where their interests lay. I see these various oligarchies, sometimes cooperating and at others vying for power. Sometimes they are ruthless and other times benevolent. They allow (heck, encourage) the citizens of the world to blame their problems on the various political nation states, while mostly resting comfortably above it all. Also, I don't have a clue what to do about it either.
Also, to oldnat, yes I agree. Border lines on the maps are mostly artificial to cultural lines. But, there are political entities that are enforcing those borders which makes them at least valid for one level of territorial discussion.
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Ref 232
I love German cars (which I, unfortunately, can not afford to buy) and I was very impressed with the Bosch appliances when I visited my wife's relatives in Spain a few years ago; but to insinuate that American technology is behind Europe's is a bit of an exaggeration...at least for now. Should we consider the European space program as being backwards because CNE's Ariane rocket is a virtual replica of the old American Delta rocket?
Technology in specific areas shifts frequently from one country to another dependent on factors such as demand, profitability, and business strategies. I admit that our focus on weapons development, to the detriment of items that would improve our quality of life is disturbing, but I believe that underestimating the technical might of the USA is not only premature, but risky for our competitors.
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Dear BBC Blog contributor,
Thank you for contributing to a BBC Blog. Unfortunately we've had to remove your content below
This decision has been made because it contains words or phrases in a non-English language. Non-English languages, codes, and text speak should not be included in your posting.
...
If you can rewrite your contribution to remove the problem, we'd be happy for you to post it again.
...
Regards,
The BBC Blog Team
Herewith the message duly edited to remove any "foreign words or phrases":
For Magic,
In Hebrew
Shalom/Salaam
ed
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Dear BBC Blog contributor,
After consulting [The American Israel Political Action committee]Thank you for contributing to a BBC Blog. Unfortunately we've had to remove your content below
Comments posted to BBC blogs will be removed if they are considered likely to provoke, attack or offend others; are racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive or otherwise objectionable; are considered to have been posted with an intention to disrupt; contain swear words (including abbreviations or alternative spellings) or other language likely to offend.
If you can rewrite your contribution to remove the problem, we'd be happy for you to post it again.
Regards,
The BBC Blog Team
I presume the appreviation for the organisation named in full below is considered offensive. The organisation's activities are offensive in my opinion, ....
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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IN ENGLISH in case my post linking to the Hebrew version is deemed 'offensive' for being a link to a site using "foreign words or phrases" - Really!
Peace (in all languages)
ed
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Hi Dom,
Don't get me wrong, I don't think US technology is behind Europe. That said, consumer goods are generally ahead of what we are offered here.
Kindest Regards,
Sam
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68 1/2
You don't know much about appliances, especially electronics do you? All electronic devices powered from utility power have transformers. They must. That's becaue all transistors and IC chips work off DC voltages at much lower voltages than is used for transmitting AC. Most power in Europe is around 230 or 240 volts. In the US it's 120 volts. It's cheaper to transmit at higher voltages becaue for a given amount of power, there is less resistive heating loss in the wires so smaller wire gages can be used. But it is far more dangerous if you ever get a shock, you are far more likely to die.
I've worked as an electrical engineer for over thirty years. Most equipment I've seen coming from Europe is not only junk but has always been overpriced even when the dollar was strong. Many companies which manufacture in Europe were American and visa versa. Whirlpool was an American manufacturer. Thompson was owned by RCA. I had a Thompson television set in France that blew up during a power outage in an electrical storm. A capacitor exploded inside. The manufacture of it was stupid. One time a technician had to repair it with a makeshift fuse because an internal fuse had blown but was soldered in instead of having a fuse holder and was inaccessible. A close friend of mine was almost killed when his electric blanket caught fire. American standards are much tougher than European standards. Most European appliances would not qualify for UL (Underwriter's Laboratories) listings as sold in Europe. Their American counterparts are different. So are European cars manufactured for export to the US.
Europe builds and manufactures to IEC Standards. American builds to NEMA. IEC is a way to give the outside world a standard to build to which is cheaper so that it can be afforded. No country is more litigious than the US. An accident involving an electric blanket catching fire in the US could result in a multimilion dollar lawsuit against the manufacturer.
Funny about video on demand. I worked for the spinoff of Bell Telephone Laboratories that developed the technology for it in the 1980s. It has not been implimented as it was envisioned. It was supposed to give subscribers access to a virtual complete library of whatever had been broadcast in the past effectiely obsoleting VCRs and DVRs. In reality, at least as it has been marketed in the US it is far more limited, mostly to current run movies. That's been a marketing decision.
I'm not going to discuss the competing standards of cell phones, tvs etc. We know that NTSC developed before SECAM and PAL was not as good at consistently rendering colors although watching 50 hz tv during daylight hours with 25 refresh screens per second in Europe had a noticable flicker where 60 hz in the US didn't. I'm also not going to talk about TDMA vs CDMA vs GSM. I think that's all in the past now as the industry has moved on.
Enjoy your ring tones. I'm perfectly happy with the default one built into my phone. In Japan you can watch TV programs on a cell phone. Can they do that in Europe yet?
BTW, where's your web site for an appliance store so I can see what these electronic marvels can do and how much they cost? And there is no VAT in the US. On the rare occasions a politician is stupid enough to suggest it, it is shot down in flames immediately.
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Encyclopedia Of The Palestinians For those who really want to learn. A review:
Look inside the book at Amazon, or peruse this article on Zionism And Its Impact By Ann M. LeschPeace (in all languages and dialects)
ed
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Enjoyable stuff, Ed!
Can you explain how to put a one word link in as you do?
Re #235
Everybody should become familiar with Uri Avnery's gush-shalom (Voice of Peace) site.
He has been publishing from Tel Aviv for more than sixty years and is a most reputable journalist.
He was also a machine-gunner in the forces that drove the Palestinians from their homes.
He was trusted by Israeli and by Arab leaders. His articles are searchable on the zope-gush-shalom website.
Can you give us a link, Ed?
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Ref 237
I agree with much of what you said in your post, but I don't think political decisions are influenced only by a "cloak and dagger" elite. Most prominent members of our society are only marginally involved in our political process, but like the rest of us they do have preferences, they contribute to the party and candidates they like best, and they vote.
In my opinion, political decisions are often influenced by circumstances, and by the goals of powerful organizations aligned to the government in power. However, I think it is naive to deny the influence that corporations play in the decision making process of our countries.
The influence of the John Birch Society, Heritage Foundation, and the Project for the New American Century on the Bush Administration should be obvious to everyone and is done overtly. People like William Kristol and Paul Wolfowitz don't hide behind veneers when they express their views and demand action from our government. An example of external influence on the US government is the letter sent by PNAC to the Bush Administration nine days after 9/11 in which they stated the following:
"...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism."
External influence on governmental matters is neither new nor limited to the USA. The role of the Jesuits and Dominicans in medieval Europe is well documented, and the conservatism that emanates from the Vatican and synagogues has had a major influence on our lives for centuries.
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Ed Uglyheart
Lobbying by political actions committees representing special interests is part of American politics. Too bad if you dont' like it, it's legal and there is nothing you can do about it. I often find you offensive. But there is something I can do about that and I've started doing it. I can click on the "complain about this comment" link and bring it to the moderator's attention. Given the vitriol against a minority religious group in the US you don't like and BBC's often one sided censorship agreeing with your bias, I've started using that link when I feel it is appropriate and leave it to the moderator to decide.
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#246
Everything there is true BUT
there is more to the story. For example, Halliburton (they have now moved their headquarters to the Mis-East).
or see Peter Newman's books about the Canadian/USA establishment
The Secretary of Defense, while in office, continued on the Kennedy family payroll.
One who can reach the President by telephone need not be a public figure, but can exercise mighty power.
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This is a URL that will take you to Uri Avnery's website where you can search.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/archives_article210
In the event there is some difficulty with the URl, here it is in stages:
zope.gush-shalom.org
/home/en
/channels/
avnery/
archives
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Xie_Ming,
As to Gush Shalom, The link is to the English language version, considering the Mods' (who are as Gods) sensitivities...Glad you find the links useful. The wee tutorial here explains the linking methods and other tricks, including
All others, Please accept that my outrage at the situation in Palestine will not allow me to let the rubbish spouted by ignorant denialists to stand. I'm sorry if the truth offends, but only for those whom it offends.
Peace
ed
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#247
There is considerable discussion about whether the America Israel Political Action Committee and similar groups should be required to register as a lobby group for a foreign power.
There are special reporting requirements for such groups.
_________________
We must also take into account and weigh the influence of the Orthodox teaching that a member of the faith not living in Isreal is living in "exile".
And the ideological claim of the government of Israel that all Jews everywhere are as citizens of Israel and the vague notion that the land of Israel extends to where they may be.
This is not very different from the Muslim concept that all members of the faith share a common land in concept.
How literally fundamentalists may take such concepts has important political implications.
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Anus,
You're mistaken. 'Some of my best friends are Jewish' ;-) but very few are Zionists.My objections to Israeli behaviour have nothing to to with religion, but everything to do with morality.
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Anus,
You're mistaken. 'Some of my best friends are Jewish' ;-) but very few are Zionists.My objections to Israeli behaviour have nothing to to with religion, but everything to do with morality.
Peace ()
ed
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There are close to half a million Israelis living on the west bank of the Jordan River on land that once belonged to Jordan before the third of the four genocidal wars they fought and lost against Israel. This is land the people who call themselves Palestinians say belongs to them. I don't see 400,000+ Israelis moving out. I also don't see Israel returning to borders which were militarily almost undefendable because at one point the country was only 8 miles wide. This especially in light of what happened after they gave up Gaza. I don't see them giving up Jerusalem either. Before 1967 Jews were not allowed to visit their holiest shrine, the "Wailing Wall." Today people of any religion have access to it and to the other sites in Jerusalem. Barack Obama proclaimed last month that Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel. I think they'd be very foolish to return the sparsely populated Golan Heights to Syria. The only real value this land has is its commanding view of the surrounding area which is a strong military asset. Nor do I see them giving up water rights. I think those in neighboring countries who really want peace will have to reconcile themselves to the reality that Israel will remain pretty much as it is now. Until they do, the low level war being fought will continue on indefinitely until it turns into another big hot one.
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I wish I knew which group to join so that the US government would listen to my directives. You people make it sound so easy. I've written two letters to President Bush already urging him to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Iran and he's ignored both of them. So which group should I join to be heard? AIPAC? OPEC? How about AARP.
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Mercus,
In direct contravention of international law and numerous UN resolutions.A parable That which is begun in error
can rarely be corrected easily.
;-(
ed
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Gush Shalom HOME (English)
B'Tselem HOME (English)
Of course, these Jewish organisations are obviously made up of anti-semitic, self-hating Jews, and not simple moral folk who are horrified at the daily violence and injustice being carried out in the name of Israel. perish the thought!
Peace ()
ed
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ed uglyheart
There is no such thing as internatioal law or any law when it is applied selectively. If there was an international law, then the leaders of Fatah and Hamas would be in the Hague on trial for countless crimes against humanity they have committed. They claim their suicide bombers who explode bombs in restraurnts, shopping malls, and wherever else they can kill non combatants in as large a number as possible are freedom fighters. I haven't seen any UN resolution or ICC indictments for that. Fageddaboudit. The settlers are staying.
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The Anus speaks:
Or ignored by bullies with a powerful big brotherYou bet! Nobody seems to have the intestinal fortitude to keep them in check Peace (eventually) ()ed
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But never achieving a quarter the level of violence as perpetrated by the Israeli "Defence" Force.(including 951 children killed by Israeli Security Forces and 123 Israeli children killed by Palestinians)
The circumstances in which the Palestinian children died, and for the Israeli children
A sad tale.
;-(
ed
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The ruse about international law is the word that is used, "law." It's the same kind of ploy the world renowned Noam Chomsky uses when he commits his endless crimes against the English language. The term conjures up a judicial instrument when it is in fact a political instrument. Want proof? Here's one. In Charlie Rose's interview of Richard Holbrook last week (highly recommended BTW) he said the worst twelve hours he ever spent were across the table from Radovan Karadzic during negotiations. He said that karadzic was the most evil man he'd ever met and without him, the genocide in the Balkins wouldn't have happened. So the question arose, why wasn't he arrested and captured for years after the ICC indicted him. Everyone in the area knew where he was. Where he lived, where he parked his Mercedes every day. So Holbrook asked the Commanding Officer of NATO who also knew where he was and the reply was that it was not his job to arrest him. Politics, not judicial law is what this is all about.
The Europeans all but eliminated the Jews from Europe culminating in the holocaust of WWII not by running them out but by systematic mass murder. They were passive and defenseless. Nobody is running them off their own land. The west bank belongs to them now. And they have more than sufficient means to defend themselves against anyone and at the moment, a very strong friend who won't let them down. We'll see if they have the political will to go with those means.
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Ed Uglyheart #260
The numbers are irrelevant. The Palestinian masterminds of suicide bombings and other crimes aginst humanity use their own people as human shields. If they are attacked and killed, civilians around them will die too becoming martyrs arousing more hate and more recruits, that is their purpose. It's just one more of their cynical crimes against humanity. The Israeli government had been very cautious in the past trying to find times and places when these masterminds were alone or only in the company of their fellow terrorists but in the end, they were forced to strike no matter what the collateral damage to civilians was because their primary responsibiltiy was to protect their own civilians. Protecting palestinian civilians came second.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Yeah! Right!Complain about this comment
Ed Uglyheart, you left out the part that these children were out in the streets among Hamas fighters engaged in armed conflict with Israeli soldiers. It always amazes me that parents of Palestinian children allow them to go out and put themselves in extreme danger in these circumstances. They hate Israelis more than they love their own children. And then when their children die in the crossfire, oh how those mothers do wail. When an entire population is so poisoned by hatred, it's hard to see how any peaceful settlement will ever be reached.
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Where does it say that, or anything of the sort?Complain about this comment
The Israeli enterprise began with terrorism and, in the final hours of the British Mandate, with genocide followed by ethnic cleansing. However, that ethnic cleansing included orders to kill any who attempted to return (see Uri Avner's articles- he was there with the killers).
Today, the ethnic cleansing continues in the slow manner of a boa constrictor. Claims of "terrorism" are simply pretexts.
How many know of the attempt to blow up the Mosque of Temple Mount? The plan was to provoke an uprising that the Army was positioned to crush with great killing.
Sharon explained many of the "pretexts" that could be used to Uri Avnery.
The West has been taken in by propaganda widely fostered in the media, particularly in the USA media.
The "settlement" story involves lying by Sharon and others to the US presidents, while they subsidized and armed "settlers" to move in and create "facts on the ground".
(One of the most absurd was a rabbi flying to Peru to convert a group of Peruvian indians who then immigrated to the Occupied Territories.)
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#265
Much of the Israeli killing is done with fanatical concern over the "demographic problem".
Here, the existence of gentiles in the Land of Israel is thought to represent a threat to the existence of the faithful.
The best solution would be for the moderates to overcome their disgust and become active in Israeli politics, for the fanatics are in a minority.
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It would be naive to think that after four genocidal wars and two intifadas, Israelis have not reacted with growing hatred of Palestinians themselves. If they show an increasing indifference to the value of Palestinian lives, even shooting innocent civilians deliberately and criminally, it is to be expected. Not that it is excusable but it is understandable. I think many Israelis have had enough and have resigned themselves to the fact that there simply won't be peace. They have become enured to the now occasional suicide bombs and other crimes committed against them showing an almost fateful indifference. Their hearts have been hardened. And so have many of ours in America. Perhaps many Americans have forgotten and Europeans never knew that after 9-11, there was an intense reaction among many Americans against Moslems. It was all the government could do to suppress a real threat of mass murder of Moslems living in America by non Moslems. The Moslems were rightfully scared. They were smart enough to see that their best bet was to cooperate with the government and turn in anyone whom they suspected of being part of a terrorist sleeper cell or inciting anti-American hatred among other Moslems.
Listen to this week's BBC program "Assignment." There is increasing awareness and backlash in America against what some are calling "stealth jihad." BBC uncovered at least two Moslem women, one a Principal of an experimental New York City Public School who was forced to resign and another who is a professor of archeology at Columbia University who are part of this stealth jihad. And what do those who warn about stealth jihad say about it? That they don't want the same thing to happen in America that's happening in the UK. In fact, Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canteberry said that adoption of some aspects of Sharia law in the UK is "unavoidable." Already many of America's college campuses have been taken over by left wing jihadist sypmathizers who will not anyone opposed to their views to speak in public on those campuses. It will be interesting to see if there is a backlash against them too.
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Marcus,
Now we know, you're a electrician! Cool.
All right about the transformers etc (if a little tedious). None of which is relevant to anything I said. The transformers fitted in those appliances are different and us appliances have us plugs molded onto the wires (in Europe they are generally replacable). net net, no one buys electronics in the US to take back to Europe.
Yes I can watch TV on my UK mobile, no I can't on my US one.
Whirlpool is owned by Phillips, another European company. Has been for many years. The products have improved since the take over.
Web based on demand has opened up pretty much the entire BBC library to subscibers.
Bell labs spin off? Now owned by the French, Alcatel. All those patents and so few of them ever really applied to anything. Such a shame. But I always found their staff nice and well meaning, but not exactly the brightest bulbs in the factory. Brilliant science, poor business judgement and an inability to think in a structured way.
Sorry your TV blew up. Then again, that was a long time ago, I believe television technology has moved on now and like all computerized equipment, my chinese TV in the UK is pretty much the same as my Chinese TV in the US.
So what you seem to be telling me is European stuff is actually better? BTW, on the VAT. I was unclear. Sales tax in NY is added to the sticker price, VAT in London is in it. BTW, if the dollar ever does come back you don;t have to pay it if you are a US residenton anything you bring back. Which is nice.
Have a great weekend. Enjoy that phone.
Sam
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Anus,
And, after sixty years of dispossession and violent oppression, can one not say EXACTLY the same of the Palestinians? It is to be expected. Not that it is excusable, but it is understandable......But against whom has the injustice been perpetrated? Who are the colonial enterprise? Who the oppressors?Did the Palestinians have anything to do with The Holocaust? Why should they suffer for European sins?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]This map shows the locations of over 500 de-populated and destroyed Palwstinian villages and details of the numbers displaced. When can any of these people expect justice? Never, if the speaking orifice has any say in the matter.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Marcus,
And, after sixty years of dispossession and violent oppression, can one not say EXACTLY the same of the Palestinians? "It is to be expected. Not that it is excusable, but it is understandable......" But against whom has the injustice been perpetrated? Who are the colonial enterprise? Who the oppressors?Did the Palestinians have anything to do with The Holocaust? Why should they suffer for European sins?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]This map shows the locations of over 500 de-populated and destroyed Palestinian villages and details of the numbers displaced. When can any of these people expect justice? Never, if the speaking orifice has any say in the matter.
Peace (in English)
ed
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And now for something completely different...
Prescient? Read the whole article and feel the thrill of Schadenfreude.Written eighteen months ago By ALAN ABELSON (check that name! ;-))
President Bush's fabulous vision for the future. Why hedge funds are living dangerously
() ed
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Correct link
;-(
ed
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68 1/2
The spinoff of Bell Labs I worked for was actually spun off in 1984 and was a subsidiary of the 7 regional operating companies or RBOCS. Bell Labs remained with AT and T (whom I later worked for.) It was purchased by a company in San Diego around 1997 and then divested. It's now an independent company known as Telcordia Technologies.
Believe it or not, we here in America can buy replacement plugs at any hardware store if those supplied by the manufacturer break. Actually, there are NEMA standards for dozens of unique recognized configuratons most of them used industrially. The type most commonly used in appliances in the US is called 5-15P. We can also buy any type of European plug and transformers that will allow American appliances to work in Europe and European appliances to work in America if they are not frequency sensitive. NTSC television sets, VCRs, DVRs, will not work in Europe and video tapes made to NTSC standards will not play on SECAM or PAL equipment. Universal recorder/players and even TV sets have always been available. Standards for FM radio broadcasts I think are different too. I think FCC transmission standards are different than European standards and as I remember, my American tuner did not work quite as expected in Europe. NTSC will be abolished for over the air broadcasting next year and will be replaced by all digital technology. Converter boxes will be available for older sets. Cable companies will continue service in NTSC for existing older TV sets as well.
"Universal" appliances have transformers with multiple taps which allow easy switching for different voltages. Many electronic devices had such switching. A familiar one was the Norelco floating head electric shaver (Phillips) may versions of which could be operated on either voltage.
The sales tax is applied to the sale price. Depending on what state or city you are in, it can vary. I think some states have no sales tax. I think in New York state the tax is 8 1/4% and then another 1/4% is added by New York City. In NJ, it's I think 6 1/2%. Again we have no VAT in America.
Personally I like the older appliances with electromagnetic controls better than the new ones with electronic controls. They are easier to troubleshoot and repair. I think they are more reliable too. I find that most appliances, especially electronic equipment have far more features and controls than are necessary or useful. My cell phone's instruction book is about 150 pages long. Mostly all I use it for is making telephone calls. I don't even text message. Recently we had a problem understanding some of the instructions in a very poorly written Panasonic manual for a VCR/DVR combo unit. Panasonic's own personnel said that they could only figure out how to use some features on that model just by playing with it while others were never made to work.
Bell Labs was part of Lucent Technologies which was bought by a French Company Alcatel. There is going to be a layoff soon. Since they can't fire French workers, they will lay off Americans. When the last of them are gone, they will have essentially what they started out with plus some very expensive buildings to maintain and probably impossible to get rid of like Murry Hill. I hear that Holmdel is up for sale. They also own the telephone switch manufacturing unit that was once Western Electric. Was business judgement poor at Bell Labs? That would not be accurate. It would be much fairer to say that it stank. When I worked at AT and T I was their customer on a large project. I told them if they ran all their projects that way, they would go broke. They laughed. At the time their stock was around 60 or 80. Then it fell to almost nothing.
BTW, I have worked with many very fine electricians who were highly skilled and can do some electrical work myself. But an electrician is not the same as an electrical engineer. I wouldn't expect most people from low tech Europe to understand that though.
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Once again, a posting with an ampersand symbol in it will not be accepted by BBC's software for this site.
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Brits: Does this resemble anyone we remember?
Just wondering
() ed
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&&&&&&&&
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That last paragraph by MA2 (#275) was snotty and uncalled for, in my opinion. We in the US are certainly not going to compete with Europe by ridiculing them, especially without foundation. Remember, the euro was introduced at par with the US dollar, and it's now worth a dollar and a half. I think a united Europe would be the next world economic superpower. The only thing in the way is the difficulty of uniting so many different nations with different languages to a common purpose.
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Try an ampersand on ATandT, it wouldn't post until I spelled out and.
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Gary,
No change there, then.Actually, we're doing pretty well, despite the odd hitch.BTW, You shouldn't feel the need to apologise...the toothless orifice is it's own problem.
;-)
ed
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AT&T
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Marcus (269),
And, after sixty years of dispossession and violent oppression, can one not say EXACTLY the same of the Palestinians? "It is to be expected. Not that it is excusable, but it is understandable......" But against whom has the injustice been perpetrated? Who are the colonial enterprise? Who the oppressors?Did the Palestinians have anything to do with The Holocaust? Why should they suffer for European sins?
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This map shows the locations of over 500 de-populated and destroyed Palestinian villages and details of the numbers displaced. When can any of these people expect justice? Never, if the speaking nether orifice has any say in the matter.
Peace (in English)
ed
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Garry-a-hill
You're as crazy as they are. Europe an economic superpower? Europe technologically advanced? Don't make me laugh. Tell me one technology of signifigance they are the most advanced in. Show me one major innovation in the last 50 years they made that has changed the world. The tranisitor? The integrated circuit? Personal computers? Software breakthroughs? Space travel? Even in medical and pharmaceutical science most of the breakthroughs were in America. Mapping the human genome. Cloning. Genetic engineering. Their engineers are trying to figure out how to wire up a plane the size of a forty year old American Military cargo jet for 500 TV sets and cell phones while our rovers are rolling around on the surface of Mars sending back pictures. We sent missions to every planet while they're still trying to figure out how to make a global positioning satellite system work. Yes I know we gave them some contracts like the one to buld the lab that's looking for water on Mars now, we don't want to completely humiliate them but c'mon, in the real world they not even up to Japan and China may soon pass them by. They have to put all their little coutries together to equal ours in GDP numbers but qualitatively there is no comparison. Yes I know that right now Germany has the best solar panel technology. Big deal.
BTW, that last paragraph you don't like was in return for that fool's derogatory remark equating an electrical engineer with an electrician. Grow up.
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282, That wouldn't post from my computer for some reason. Can't say why. Never had a problem with it on any other site.
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euros have been using cordless kettles for the last 20 years.
Here in the states I am looked at by people as someone who has brought them something new.
Well you need to make a nice cuppa, right.
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278 is that maggie?:)
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Nah! It's Ms Clinton! The resemblence is a bit alarming.
;-)
ed
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Hint
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Both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are responsible for horrible acts of violence and intolerance. The focus, after so many years of suffering ought to be on finding a solution to the current impasse, rather than rehashing events that can not be changed.
At this point, it is futile to discuss what should or should not have happened five decades ago, what is important is what is happening today and what should happen in the future.
If the creation of a nation can be justified on the basis of divinity rights and the need to find a home for displaced and persecuted European Jews; a sovereign nation should certainly be created for the Palestinians whose ancestors lived in the area, alongside Jews, for millennia.
Every human being should be able to live in peace and prosper, regardless of ethnicity, nationality, and religion.
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to those that wonder about frogs and why they entered this debate.
Marcus decided long ago that failing to best anyone(including me) in arguement he would attack me for being a farrier, in ignorance of the fact that Blacksmiths do not shoe horses.
He was an engineer and knew more about metal than any blacksmith.
in response I posted a reply that contained the web address to some pictures of my work.
there are pictures of frogs carved from square bar.
this became the focus for his limited inteligence and some how has turned into a seriess of sad responses lacking much humour,if any.
A sad attack because unlike him I have managed to show many times that he does not know very much.
To all those that mention the failings of having politically appointed diplomats. well said.(I have brought this up before and made a mistake that I expected MA to figure out , but he did not)
Christopher Myers , the british diplomat was in fact a carrer diplomat.Sorry to Mr Myres for making this false statement.
Doug the europeans have critisised Isreal and it's actions. Not as forcefully as they should have but way more than the US who every one APPEASES(for jerky and markee).
marcus gets honest
"Personally I like the older appliances with electromagnetic controls better than the new ones with electronic controls. They are easier to troubleshoot and repair."
thats why your angry is it.
they are making things too hard for you.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Jackarse, first let me admit that you can hammer out a frog from a piece of metal with the best of them, better than I ever could hope to or want to. Perhaps that is your real talent in life, who knows. For all I know you are the best frog banger outer in the world. But everywhere else you lose.
I have an insurance repair contract for all of my major appliances including the heating, air conditoning, electrical, and other major systems and appliances in my house. I pay a monthly insurance premium and a deductable fee to get any and all of them repaired when they need it. Yet when there is an item that is easy to repair such as a gas dryer that needed a new switch, it was faster and easier for me to just buy a replacemnt and install it myself. Not so circuit boards. It took nearly a month to get what was closest to a replacement circuit board for a GE wall oven and then it took a GE factory technician about two hours on the phone with his tech back-up to figure out how to modify it to my particular oven. The original board had been discontinued and an exact replacement was no longer available. Similar story on a Trane air conditioning unit. A clock motor operated defrost recycle timer replacement in one of my refrigerators was a twenty minute car ride and about a two minute repair job away. That's why I like them. Now why would I get angry about a machine. At worst, all I'd do is go out and buy a replacement if I had to.
I think that America's unwavering support of Israel is one reason Europe is so angry. Too bad. And now we have evangelicals including born again Christians constituting one tenth of the US population who not only demand full support of Israel but are spoiling for a nuclear holocaust in the middle east they say is predicted in Bible prophesy. They want Israel to take much more land away from the Arabs and say that Ariel Sharon's stroke was god's punishment for him giving Gaza back to the Palestinians. Forced to choose between Europe and Israel, America will choose Israel. Sir Christopher Myers as much as said so. Go back and listen to the recording in the BBC archive if you don't believe it.
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DominikVila, there will never be peace between Israel and the Arabs in the Middle East. Too many Arab governments and Iran have a vested interest in there not being peace. The conflict diverts attention of their own populations away from their own shortcomings and failings. They blame everything that happens there on it but almost none of what goes on there in say Iraq for example has anything to do with Israel or the Palestinians. To be certain that peace won't accidentally somehow break out, the Islamic world has propagated a litany of lies about Israel and Jews to incite mass hatred of them to the point where no solution will be possible. And it has worked. And they do have supporters in that effort in the West even among non Moslems. Some post right here on this very board.
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Marcus,
If you're not an electrician how come you know so much about plugs?
European inventors, inventions? How about Alexander Graham Bell, The phone, since we are talking about Bell Labs. Marconi, radar. The majority of biotech innovations are coming out of Cambridge (Englanbd, not Massacheusetts) We could go back to cars, almost everything you have in an advanced car from flappy paddle gearboxes to telemetrics to anti lock brakes come from Formula 1. That's the motor sport where the cars turn left and right. The A380 is a far better plane than anything Boeing build today, though those are indeed global projects. The same is true for every model in either companies fleet. We can laugh at how late the 380 is, but likewise how late the 787 is already. I could go on.
We could go back to where we started, European appliances are far more advanced than American.
Sales tax is a % tax added onto the sales price of a product or service. VAT is a sales tax % added onto the sales price of a product or service. Jeez, I wonder where the deep philosophical difference is?
As for your last, somewhat racist comment. You are mistaken again, I am American, albeit one hwo spend a lot of time overseas.
Happy Sunday,
Sam
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You're as crazy as they are. Europe an economic superpower? Europe technologically advanced? Don't make me laugh. Tell me one technology of signifigance they are the most advanced in. Show me one major innovation in the last 50 years they made that has changed the world.
Discovery of DNA? Nuclear physics? Space travel?
And of course most of the rest of world relies on European research for their own technological acheivements
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"The sales tax is applied to the sale price. Depending on what state or city you are in, it can vary. I think some states have no sales tax. I think in New York state the tax is 8 1/4% and then another 1/4% is added by New York City. In NJ, it's I think 6 1/2%. Again we have no VAT in America. "
Rather like saying we have no death penalty in the US, we only execute people (mainly black and poor people).
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ref #291
You assuming the Palestinians will keep their word.
There has no evidence of this. They have a Palestinian state, it's called Jordan.
It time for the Arabs state to open full negoiations with Israel with no preconditions.
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Coincidentally, this year is the 50th anniversary of The Ugly American.
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"DominikVila, there will never be peace between Israel and the Arabs in the Middle East. Too many Arab governments and Iran have a vested interest in there not being peace. The conflict diverts attention of their own populations away from their own shortcomings and failings. They blame everything that happens there on it but almost none of what goes on there in say Iraq for example has anything to do with Israel or the Palestinians. To be certain that peace won't accidentally somehow break out, the Islamic world has propagated a litany of lies about Israel and Jews to incite mass hatred of them to the point where no solution will be possible. And it has worked. And they do have supporters in that effort in the West even among non Moslems. Some post right here on this very board. "
Completely wrong in every respect.
Peace will break out wehen Israel abandons its rascist policies and accepts the palestinians as full citizens in one country.
That is inevitable. It has nothing to do with "jews" or "arabs" many Israelis are "arabs". This is to cast the conflict in simplistic racial terms.
Jewish identity and the jewish religion are gradually eroding, in fact the jewish religion is now decaying as fast as the Christian. Christianity in the US for example is practically in free fall compared with ten years ago.
And like SA the US will peg back its support, America gets little from supporting israel, which since the cold war, has lost much of its strategic importance.
Its just a pity that certain fanatics believe in fighting the inevitable. Again with SA we heard how RSA would "never fall to the black communists" and the US was firm ally.
Support for Israel in its current state is eroding and so it should, we need no religious/ethnic states in the 21st century.
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How can we have an intelligent discussion about anything when one side is filled with people who can't read?
Simple Simon
Structure of DNA? Watson and Crick? Well not really, they were a pair of dummies who stole it from an English woman radiologist Rosalind Franklin. A long story, go look it up. But that was in 1953. Nuclear energy? Well that was theorized by a lot of work put together by Europeans but it didn't really amount to much until 1943 when they came together in Chicago in the Manhattan Project. Space travel? Well Goddard was a pioneer of rocketry. Von Braun learned a lot from him but in Europe his only rockets went as far as London. The USSR put the first satelite Sputnik in orbit in 1957, a basketball with a radio transmitter inside that went beep beep. Of course the US space program put the first man on the moon, and the second and the third. What do all these things have in common though? THEY ALL HAPPENED MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO!
68 1/2
Bell invented the telephone in the 19th century. Marconi and radio? Early 20th century. Radar? WWII, the forties. ALL MORE THAN 50 YEARS OLD.
Don't know who holds the world's land speed record. Probably someone who tested a jet plane without wings out in Bonneville flats proving ground. Is that a race car?
As for the Eurosauris Rex, the A380, we've been down this road too many times for me to waste any more on it. Evolutionary development of a very old idea at best. A typical European white elephant, a monument to ego paid for by taxpayers.
Simple Simon, if you want to learn more about America's death penalty first hand, come here and violate the laws where that is a possibility and you'll see that we do have it in 38 states and in Federal Law. The only question in some of our minds is what's keeping the other 12 states from seeing the light.
68 1/2
If I'm not an electrician, how do I know so much about plugs? If you're not an inventor, how do you know so much about inventions. Answer, you don't.
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Britain's Lords decided that Pinochet could be extradited to Spain for Torture done in Chile.
The USA and Israel were signatories to the 1984 U.N. Convention against Torture and Other Cruel Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
That means that officials of either of those countries, after leaving office, could be arrested in Britain.
Interesting?
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re: posts 33 and 34
Here's the first article of the 22nd amendment:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."
Never hurts to go back to the original source material.
This topic sort of came up when someone early in the primary campaign suggested that Hillary could run with Bill as vice-presidential candidate. Aside from the gag factor of a hers-and-his candidacy, the commentary on this ludicrous idea was that he was barred from serving again. There are only two offices in the US system that are elected by the entire country: president and vice-president. Strictly speaking, if he was elected as vice-president (with one of his duties being succeeding the president) and succeeded, he would have been elected to the office. So, won't work.
Aside from being, as others have pointed out, a really, really bad idea from Obama's point of view.
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Ref #303
Except nothing either countries leaders done has fallen in that category.
On the other hand the Mullahs of Iran, Dictators Hugo and Fidel do fall in that category
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Some of the comments above indicate that the "demographic problem" is not understood.
With the present birth rates, even within Israel itself (excluding even the Occupied Territories), the Arabs are forecast to become a majority by 2030.
This has ethno/religious fanatics going quite mad.
Despite the deliberate oppression, they still breed faster!
As one poster and Netanyahu insist, send them all to Jordan!!
_________________________
On racial (DNA) grounds, Syrians, diaspora Jews and Palestinians are the same "race",
different from everyone else.
So, I agree with whoever above suggested that we kick the religio/ethnic (Nazi) bit and get on with living together.
One Israeli saw it this way "we are good engineers and they are great salesmen. We could do a lot working together".
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#305
There are a lot of international organizations (and a few Israeli ones, see above) that disagree.
Simply doing a Google will bring much greater understanding.
Arresting someone and holding them as a way of putting pressure on another prisoner constitutes torture of the latter, for example.
The judgement concerning Pinochet runs to 120 pages- there was one instance where they thought a trial could be had as to whether he condoned or allowed torture to take place in that single instance.
After reading a bit, someone may have better information (assertions don't count).
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302. At 10:22pm on 10 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"How can we have an intelligent discussion about anything when one side is filled with people who can't read? "
I wouldn't say the fact that you read Newt Gringrich as a historian means you can't actually read, that is far too harsh.
"Structure of DNA? Watson and Crick? Well not really, they were a pair of dummies who stole it from an English woman radiologist Rosalind Franklin."
Hmm but Crick, Watson and Franklin were all British and all lived in Britain which is in Europe.
So your point about European technology is er lost.
" A long story, go look it up. But that was in 1953. "
Yes but you have gainsayed your own point haven't you?
"Nuclear energy? Well that was theorized by a lot of work put together by Europeans but it didn't really amount to much until 1943 when they came together in Chicago in the Manhattan Project."
You concede the point again? What exactly is your argument.
Its a very American thing this attempt to try and a make an argument and by so doing prove everything your opponent says.
Is it a type of mental illness?
"Space travel? Well Goddard was a pioneer of rocketry."
But not the only one, the rest were all European
"Von Braun learned a lot from him but in Europe his only rockets went as far as London. "
Which was further then any US scientist had achieved.
"The USSR put the first satelite Sputnik in orbit in 1957, a basketball with a radio transmitter inside that went beep beep."
Yes and the USSR is in Europe. The USSR also put the first man into space. Im sure Newt has a page on it.
"Of course the US space program put the first man on the moon, and the second and the third. What do all these things have in common though? THEY ALL HAPPENED MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO!"
And they all derive from inventions and discoveries in Europe.
So once again apart from Space exploration, genetics, nuclear physics, stem cell research etc etc it is true the Europeans invented nothing.
Or alternatively they invented everything that enables modern life.
Next time you want to have an agrument you should try to take the opposite view, not prove your opponent's argument.
Again Gringrich must have a para on this, though he was not the greatest logician.
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#307 Xie_Ming
The House of Lords judgement related only to the issues of
1. Whether as a former Head of State, Pinochet was immune from "due process" and, therefore, whether the Spanish request for extradition was valid
2. There was prima-facie evidence to support the extradition order.
The judgement rejected the claim of immunity, and accepted that there was prima-facie evidence.
The decision to extradite Pinochet or not, then became a matter for the Home Secretary (Jack Straw) to decide.
The decision not to extradite Pinochet was made on health grounds (a series of minor strokes).
It is a matter of opinion whether Straw's decision was appropriate - especially considering the rapid improvement in Pinochet's health once he was on the plane home.
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Moderators: cannot you persuade some people on this site to stop being gratuitously insulting and offensive with their personalisations?
Until you can, I for one am not coming back to this blog again.
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Dominick,
Precisely! And today, they are building new houses in th illegal settlements. I gave you the details of children killed in JUNE 2008 (July figures not available yet). So far THIS YEAR the Israli "Defense" Forces have killed 82 Palestinian childrenIn TODAY'S NEWS
and
More from today
and a summary page
and the main BBC Mid-East page
This isn't history. It's happening this very minute. And the Palestinians are getting the rough end of it while the Colonists seize ever more of the tiny remainder of their homeland - every single day, and we "pass by on the other side" and avert our gaze.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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Simon,
And may I take this opportunity to remind us all that leading said research and most other fields of human endeavour, you will find Jews, and even the American ones are of mostly European extraction.So there!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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#309
I don't recall any statement about evidence.
The judgement was that a head of state is not immune after he leaves office.
BUT that was limited to grave international crimes.
and there was a lot of argument that the basic treaty should have so specified, but did not.
Now, what do you think about the USA and/or Israel and torture coming under this rule?
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Sparcus, sparky,
I am here. I live here, I'm American.
Who mentioned the land speed record, Oh yeah you did trying to change the subject. Again.
You know I shouldn't have gone down the path of moving from your bold statement tha European products are bad (which we know now not to be true) to a list of inventions and letting you pick a very narrow timeframe.
But just this once I'll humor you. European inventions from the last 50 years would include:
The Fax machine
The Electron microscope
Cobham reactive armor
The World Wide Web
VTOL Aircraft
MP3's
Compact Disc
Viagra
On line gambling
Go to just things that have changed our lives in the last 50 years:
Asprin
Television
The Jet Engine
The Vacuum Cleaner
The Diesel Engine
The Internal Combustion Engine
The Geiger Counter
The Fire Extinguisher
Pneumatic tyres
Rubber bands
Computers
Submarines
Periscopes
The automobile
Railways
Suspension Bridges
The tank
The Integrated Circuit (Silicon Chip)
X rays
Even the Sapce program you seem to be so proud of, down to Werner Von Braun, a German.
So other areas where Europe leads the United States:
Vacuum Cleaners (Dyson)
Appliances
Cars
Super Cars
Chip and Pin Credit cards
Cuisine
Financial markets
Fashion
I could go on.
Care to come up with the list of areas where the US leads Europe? Or something invented? I'll give you a start:
Helicopters
Military combat aircraft
Have a great day!
Sam
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Heard on public radio that Hillary Clinton told her supporters she is not ruling out calling for a convention vote on her nomination. So much for party unity.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5528104
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Re:#276 Thanks for the tip on the deadly ampersand symbol. It was lurking at the end of the URL and kept me from posting.
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Sorry Sparcus, I missed one thing.
'If I'm not an electrician, how do I know so much about plugs? If you're not an inventor, how do you know so much about inventions. Answer, you don't.'
You are now correct on one thing. I don't know anything about inventions, only really design and technology. Ergo I am not an inventor.
So using your own logic:
You do know an awful lot about plugs, ergo you are an electrician?
Sleep well,
Sam
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Hi Candace,
Try this. & scroll down.
;-)
ed
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red #311
And why should we care? The Palestinians celebrated the World Trade Center attacks.
Let's spend more time on worthy endevours: The Soviet invasion of Georgia, the islamic terrorist threat, the Stealing of land and property by Chavez and Morales.
The Palestinians blew the chance for peace.
They deserve their hardship
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Re: #315 link and a test of nifty suggestion in #318 What the Hill is going on here
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Fabulous! But beware, teach a woman to fish and she soon needs a bicycle, or something to that effect...
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Ref 311
Ed, I am not condoning the actions of Israel, which I find despicable, and I am convinced that the Palestinians are victims of one of the greatest injustices in history. In fact, I believe the main impediment to a successful agreement is the expansionist policies of Israel, which are intended to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State.
Having said that, I am also convinced that dwelling on the negative aspects of this conflict will not solve anything. The focus must be on finding a solution acceptable to both sides.
The other big problem is that to achieve that the USA will have to take a tough stand, such as stopping economic and military aid to Israel until the problem is solved. That, unfortunately, is not about to happen any time soon, regardless of who is elected in November.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MagicKirin #319
"And why should we care? The Palestinians celebrated the World Trade Center attacks."
We shouldn't. But we should also recognize that these people are also the victims of their so called leaders. They are the ones who filled their lives with hate. So much so that even their own children are sacrificed to it. They are all without hope and doomed, especially the ones in Gaza. Sooner or later something terrible will happen like complete breakdown of their sewer system or their water system or a plague. Even if people wanted to help them at that point it would be too dangerous to try and the disaster might be beyond coping. In a sense their own hate has turned in on itself and will destroy them all. There will never be a Palestinian state. The end is just a matter of time and details of how it happens. I think it's time for America to walk away from this one and from a lot more. Charity should begin at home.
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#322
The first step would be to withdraw the US guarantee of Israeli loans.
My recollection, subject to correction, is that that alone is 16 billion.
Withdrawal of even that much from the American umbilical cord could provoke a sudden change of heart in the corrupt Israeli political system.
(Incidentally, Uri Avnery is talking about the US and the Kadima elections today- I mention this for can find Ed's URL for gush-shalom).
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#323
Those who pay attention will have noted that the BBC HARDTALK with Tim Sebastien devoted several weeks to on-air negotiations- and there was agreement.
What was lacking was Israeli political will- they still think (after forty years?) that they can drive the owners from their homes.
The World is getting a good look at what constitutes ethics and morality in Israel.
Although many decent folk (like Daniel Barenboeim and Tanya Reinhardt) have left in disgust, I cling to the hope that the majority is decent and may take power from the fanatics.
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299, Magic.
If you knew your geography you would know that Palestine is not located in Jordan.
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310, Brit.
The advantage to a blog is that we do not have to be politically correct. Politicaly correctness is not honesty. It is mealy-mouthed misdirection.
It is true that some of the comments are rude and crude, but at least the people writing them are saying what they think, not what someone thinks they should think.
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323, Andrea.
The reason you have such firm opinions is that you no understanding whatsoever of Palestinians and the Palestinian-Israel conflict.
Broad statements like the Palestinians "raise their children to fight" is utter nonsense.
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324, Marcus.
If charity should begin at home, why are we supporting Israel financially?
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phillips is that the dutch version?
thank god for Hi def the american screens were crap,(well they couldn't figure out how to get all the lines in.
"Most power in Europe is around 230 or 240 volts. In the US it's 120 volts. It's cheaper to transmit at higher voltages becaue for a given amount of power, there is less resistive heating loss in the wires so smaller wire gages can be used. But it is far more dangerous if you ever get a shock, you are far more likely to die. "
well if we made electronics with the crap wiring and plugs so often found in the US they would be dangerous.
302 more bull.
including the now infamous marcus essay on how the air bus is a c5 with the wing moved and the plane changed but the same really cause it flies and is big.
cloning? really.
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I think it's time for America to walk away from this one and from a lot more.
good that is what we all say that thiink america should but out.
plop
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If I'm not an electrician, how do I know so much about plugs?
because those crapy american plugs need changing so much.
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332, Jack.
What are you referring to?
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I have an insurance repair contract for all of my major appliances including the heating, air conditoning, electrical, and other major systems and appliances in my house.
what a waste for a expert electrical engineer.
a blacksmith maybe but an engineer who is of the best , wells surely he could deal with these minor difficulties himself before the guy from best buy turns up.
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just to say what a waste of money.
like paying insurance in case you ca't fix it.
that sounds like a confidence problem
one I would share
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Europeans never knew that after 9-11, there was an intense reaction among many Americans against Moslems. It was all the government could do to suppress a real threat of mass murder of Moslems living in America by non Moslems. The Moslems were rightfully scared.
your real sick.
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marbles I was unclearly refering to the
I think it's time for America to walk away from this one and from a lot more.
For if they did Israel would be the bad guy in the UN and face something for it.
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3327
And if you knew, lost your marbles geography and culture, the people of Jordan are Palestinians.
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Xie_Ming,
And you've got admit that they've been pretty successful at that!Ms Marbles, Jack was referring to the amazing fact that Marcus actually said something (almost) sensible!
Magic, The Jordanians are Hashemites, but they have had a fair number of ex-Palestinians join them due to the violent dis[placement and dispossession which continues to this day.
Candace, Can you manage on a "boys" bicycle? ;-)
Dominick, I know the "history" is in the past, but, as we both know, it continues to this very moment (with the odd positive note). It is also impossible to understand the present without some understanding of the past. The second link here is a good discussion of the "two narratives", and there is another excellent summary here, from Jews For Justice.
We must live in Hope
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#339 MagicKirin
You can't generalise about the ethnic origins of the people in any state in the Middle East.
Prior to 1948, the Hashemite Bedouin outnumbered the Jordanian Arabs (mainly based in the northern highlands). Following the Israeli wars in 1948 and 1967 there was a huge influx of Palestinian refugees, who now make up about 60% of the population. About 2% of the population is non-Arab.
The Arabs, like the Jews, are Semitic people.
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Magic,
I know one shouldn't mock the afflicted, but if you consider those to be worthy endeavours, it's not surprising you support the Israeli theft of Palestinian land....;-)
ed
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From the article linked earlier
So they've managed to keep the "collateral damage" below 50%! WOW!Complain about this comment
jf335
In your simpleminded view of life anything can be fixed with the right sized hammer. But even if I knew how to troubleshoot all of these diverse appliances I wouldn't have the equipment. To recharge my air conditioner took gages and a canister of freon and if it turn out there is a leak, it will take special equipment to find it. If my TV set breaks down, that will require special equipment and troubleshooting skills specific to TV repair technicians. Being only expert on what you can do with a hammer, some metal, tongs, fire, and a bucket of brine, I wouldn't expect you to know that.
mable only understood what I said once because I tried to restrict my posting to one sylable words for her benefit and yours. Usually my thoughts are just too complex for that.
mablelostallhermarbles...why are we supporting Israel financially with 3 billion a year? Good question. More to the point, why are we supporting Europe with NATO to the tune of hundreds of billions a year on defense? Why did we send 15 billion to Africa to fight AIDS and now are about to commit another 45 billion for it? Why help out the tsunami victims? Why send a billion a year to Egypt? Why did we send half a billion a year to the Palestinians? Let them all get along on their own. If Isreal feels threatend, we should tell them to fight their own battles. Nuke everyone if they have to it's their problem. And we should have told Europe to go to hell a long long time ago.
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Oldnat,
But it can be fun, for example, to note the well-known difference in average IQ between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi gene pools,....and then to note (with some alarm) that Sephardi now constitute the majority in Israel.I wonder which gene pool gave us magic. ;-)#
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Marcus,
But that's been outlawed for decades!Complain about this comment
Morning!
Marcus, where's your list of great American innovations? You gave yourself an assignment, you should really follow through on it. And I missed a big one, struck me last night:
The telecommunications Satellite
Jack, can you repost the Frog information, I might want one for the yard. I'm intrigued.
And lets face it, being a blacksmith is far more skilled than being an electrician, or even an eletrical engineer. Like most disciplines those just follow a bunch of rules. To be a Blacksmith you need creativity and practicality. Plus it's a much better pick up line at parties.
'Hey babe, I'm an Electrical engineer' Yawn.
'Hey babe, I'm a Blacksmith'. Hmmm, muck and muscle.
Ladies, what's sexier. Blacksmith or electrical engineer?
Have a great week,
Sam
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ref #342
Ed:
They never owned the land in the first place. Other people did and they left when they assumed Israel would be wiped out in 48 and 67.
And yes real theft is going on in Venezuela and Bolivia.
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Ed,
One of us lives in 1973.
Happy Monday,
Sam
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Meanwhile, in Gaza
Plus ca change....Salaam, etc.
ed
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Magiic,
When the Partition plans were drawn up in 1947, less than 7% of the land in Palestine was Jewish-owned (but 11-12% of the "cultivable" land).Whether the Palestinians "owned" the land they had occupied for generations, or not has little to do with it. They mostly had valid tenure under the traditional systems in existence at the time, and a moral right to continue in occupation. Much information on the nature of landholdings in Palestine before Nakba can be seen in the report of Sir John Hope-Simpson on behalf of the British Mandate in 1930, linked above, and also discussed here in wikipedia.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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319. At 02:00am on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
red #311
And why should we care? The Palestinians celebrated the World Trade Center attacks.
Let's spend more time on worthy endevours: The Soviet invasion of Georgia, the islamic terrorist threat, the Stealing of land and property by Chavez and Morales.
The Palestinians blew the chance for peace.
319. At 02:00am on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
red #311
And why should we care? The Palestinians celebrated the World Trade Center attacks.
Let's spend more time on worthy endevours: The Soviet invasion of Georgia, the islamic terrorist threat, the Stealing of land and property by Chavez and Morales.
The Palestinians blew the chance for peace.
They deserve their hardship
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Not as much as many in the US rejoice where hear that more Palestinians (men women and children) ahve been killed or lose their land.
"319. At 02:00am on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
red #311
And why should we care? The Palestinians celebrated the World Trade Center attacks.
Let's spend more time on worthy endevours: The Soviet invasion of Georgia, the islamic terrorist threat, the Stealing of land and property by Chavez and Morales.
The Palestinians blew the chance for peace.
"They deserve their hardship"
They deserve to have their children killed?
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Magic,
They left because they were terrified of being wiped out by Irgun, the Stern Gang or Haganah.Salaam, etc.ed
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ref #353
Ed I suggest you read : A History of Israel by Harold Sacher. This is not a pro Israel book but a scholarly text.
It might be beneficial for you to read soe non propoganda sources
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#352, #353
To understand the repetitious mantras (spam?) and utterly false assertions of the poster you refer to, one may need to check certain commentaries in the Oral Torah, the Talmud.
These call for deceiving the "other", etc.
However, the pattern for this particular poster is evident without such explanation, and he may be taken as an exemplar of political Zionism.
Uri Avnery's website (#249) is searchable and his articles cover more than sixty years of first-hand experience in Israel. Anyone who wants facts should bookmark that site and get used to searching it.
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354. At 2:32pm on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #353
Ed I suggest you read : A History of Israel by Harold Sacher. This is not a pro Israel book but a scholarly text.
It might be beneficial for you to read soe non propoganda sources
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And others might suggest you read a book on common humanity and ethics. That way you would not make such comments as the Palestinian people "deserve" their suffering.
FOur million men, women and children deserve humane treatment, no matter what ethnic groupd they belong to.
And Harold Sacher's book is good as far as it goes but he certainly omits much of the Palestinian story and he barely mentions christians in the region at all.
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ref #356
What do you suggest? That Israel who has been the only one who has to give something in the peace process continue to while being attacked.
What have the Palestinians or the Gulf States given in reperations?
The fact is that untill the Palestinians prove they can be trusted , The U.S has to support one side and we have the moral courage unlike the U.N or EU to support the right one.
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Sacher reviewed:
Nuff said.Salaam, etc.
ed
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#357
As the Mearsheimer and Walt report documents, the US Congress is dominated by the Israeli Lobby and its directed funding.
By declaring AIPAC and like organizations as lobbists for a foreign power, more light could be shed on their operations.
(By their lies to the US presidents and their continued forcing of "settlements" in the Occupied Territories, the Israelis have demonstrated that they CANNOT be trusted).
If the US fundamentalist evangelicals indeed decide to "vote for Jesus", then perhaps the drain on US tax funds and morality can be stemmed.
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Magic,
ROFLOL!Reparations for being displaced and dispossessed? Reparations for being in the way? Here's a
book recommendation for you, and a review:
Salaam, etc.
ed
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357. At 3:15pm on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #356
What do you suggest? That Israel who has been the only one who has to give something in the peace process continue to while being attacked.
What have the Palestinians or the Gulf States given in reperations?
The fact is that untill the Palestinians prove they can be trusted , The U.S has to support one side and we have the moral courage unlike the U.N or EU to support the right one.
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The Palesinians a have given nearly their whole land. They deser vast reparations from Israel and teh US for the atttempt to deny them their ethnicity.
The Palestinains only have to prove two things,
1. They are human beings
2. They are a oppressed - end of story
They owe their oppressors nothing.
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Re 360
Reparations for being displaced and dispossessed? Reparations for being in the way? Here's a
book recommendation for you, and a review:
"By way of introduction, the obvious cannot be overstressed here, namely that Israel is the occupier and therefore the aggressor while the Palestinians are the occupied and therefore the victims. Paradoxically, this fact is hardly ever even taken into consideration by western politicians, thus ignoring the fundamental element of the conflict. Needless to say, attempting to solve this conflict without differentiating between the aggressor (Israel) and the victimized (the Palestinians) will never lead to permanent peace."
This is an excellent book.
The question reallyis though why does the US have such a hatred for indigenous peoples.
The answer must lie in the way they treated their own native people. Guilt is a great generator of hatred.
It is why the Israelis loathe the Palestinians. A native people is a standing reproach to any coloniser.
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doug once asked about what can be done. well here is a link to a bbc page to show what should not be done
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
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troubleshooting skills specific to TV repair technicians.
but your so great at everything I thought it would be easy. for you
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ref #360 362 363
How about the gulf states funding of the Palestinians who commit terrorist attacks
How about the Madrasas which are state funded which preach hatred of Israel.
Isreal is the victim here and the only party involved who keeps their word.
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Simon,
Beautifully put! That should be carved in stone somewhereSalaam, etc.
ed
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Magic,
Ignorance can be overcome much more easily than blind prejudice. There is no cure for stupidity.Complain about this comment
It starts with a boatload of outcasts landing in a far away strange and dangerous land 400 years ago, surviving in great adversity and hardship, living among barbaric tribes, and going through one trial by fire after another.
Mainly wrong
as always.
They were not cast out from plymouth they left becausse they did not like the new "liberal" ideas.
so they got some boats and left
As for barbaric tribes.
you racist piece of propaganda promoting filth
who are you. but mostly wrong.
what is a barbarian to you?
and how do you who has been shown so much in life and ignored it get off calling anyone else let alone the true Americans barbaric.
oh I know. because you are a self opinionated idiot with no sense of history despite continued attempts to show yuor knowlege you fail and only show you are not so good at reading
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red #367
That is true in your and Jackforge's case. You have shown tremedous lack of knowledge of the war crimes commited by the Palestinians
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365. At 4:58pm on 11 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #360 362 363
How about the gulf states funding of the Palestinians who commit terrorist attacks
How about the Madrasas which are state funded which preach hatred of Israel.
Isreal is the victim here and the only party involved who keeps their word."
And the US funding of Israeli ethnic cleansing groups?
And the yeshivas which educate terrorists one of whihc murdered an Israeli PM.
Israel occupies 4 millin people - even Israel admits this
Why don't you?
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"red #367
That is true in your and Jackforge's case. You have shown tremedous lack of knowledge of the war crimes commited by the Palestinians
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And you think occupying 4 million people is "deserved".
This is deeply corrupt
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329. At 05:25am on 11 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
323, Andrea.
The reason you have such firm opinions is that you no understanding whatsoever of Palestinians and the Palestinian-Israel conflict.
Broad statements like the Palestinians "raise their children to fight" is utter nonsense.
They are also profoundly anti-semetic
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339, Magic.
How can you manage to be wrong twice on the same subject? Many Palestinians fled to Jordan when they were driven out of Israel. Moreover, the Palestinians don't like the Jordanians because they felt they were complicit in the creation of Israel - which they were.
The Jordanians have been trying to win the Palestinians favor for over a half a century. King Hossein went so far as to marry a Palestinian. It did not change anything.
Jeesh, Magic, if you are going to be prejudiced, at least get your facts straight.
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#372
Is particularly true, because, not only are the Syrians, Palestinians and diaspora Jews all Semitic- by DNA, they are the same race, different from everyone else.
Within the USA, the influence of Israel extends beyond the terroism of the Jewish Defense League in bombing foreign embassies and (even after 9/11) the offices of US Congressmen-
The Israeli government gave a Learjet to Jerry Falwell.
These other deluded fundamentalists help the drain of taxpayer funds to corrupt religio/ethnic (Nazi) regime in Israel.
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ref # 373 Look at a pre 1930 map that area is called TransJordan.
You get your facts straight:
There was no Plaestinian State
There is no Nbaka
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340, Ed.
I know I am just picking nits, but here goes.
It is not the Jordanian people who are Hashemites, but the royal line which was hails from western Arabia. After the first world war, England set up a puppet king in what was then Transjordan. This was Abdullah, a son of the Sharif of Mecca. The present king is his greatgrandson.
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224 another arguement against nuke power , nice one erronious
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marcus there are many things that can be fixed with a hammer. starters that don't work and you are two I can think of quickly.
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Magic and his many comments.
Do you work for Israeli public relations?
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Looking at British government maps from 1916 shows "Palestine".
Tut, tut! Let truth enlighten the evil and elevate the spirit.
Those who want more detailed information
may check the Gertrude Bell project on the internet.
Need I provide a URl?
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375, Magic.
Palestine was the last of the mandated territories. How could that have been if there were no Palestine?
Also Palestine was under civil rule and Transjordan had a king.
Ask your Israeli boss to explain this to you.
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wow marbles , apparently you (and I) did not read the play book that says we should all accept whatever the Zionist say.No matter how wrong they are.
for they are anti semites fighting anti semetics, whichever is which.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
One of the grand expansionist plans of the Israeli military involves throwing out Jordan's king and giving Jordan to the Palestinians, along with various other "adjustments" in the borders.
See Uri Avnery's website for the pertinent articles.
Interestingly, the last attack on Lebanon was supposed to drive the Palestinians from Lebanon into Syria, whence they would (hopefully) be ejected into Jordan.
Avnery has the story on his zope.gush-emunim website.
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384, Xie.
Another screwball plot that I didn't know about. Thanks for the info. Are the Jordanians just supposed to sit back and say, "Yes, Massa."?
And what makes Israel think that, although the Jordanians have always tried to make nice with the Palestinians, they would allow them to take over their country? And is Israel aware of the present problem in Jordan concerning the huge influx of Iraqi refugees? How is that factored into their plans?
Idiots.
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If Palestine didn't exist, why is this very official-looking map of Palestine signed by Moshe Dayan (upper left corner)? If you examine the borders, you'll see Lebanon, Syria, TransJordan and Egypt as neighbours....
Somebody went to a great deal of trouble to make such a detailed map of a non-existent country, and all those non-existent places, like Majdal (look north of Gaza), which has disappeared so much that a resident of Ashqelon denied to me that it ever had a population....
Also, consider the Gazeteer entry:Nelson's World Gazeteer and Geographical Dictionary
They forgot to mention the deepest river of them all, DENIAL
Salaam, etc
ed
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#385
Ed: Please put in the correct URL for
Uri Avnery's zope.gush-shalom.org
English site.
Anybody using the gush-shalom search function on Avnery's articles can get the details.
Tanya Reinhardt's "The Generals' Grand Design" details other expansionist plans.
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Xie_Ming
Gush Shalom HOME
Uri Avnery's column
with my compliments and best wishes
ed
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All,
As someone who is from Jewish family, albeit taht I am very secular, I find it amazing how many people want to defend rights I didn't know I had.
There is one lesson from history, repeated over and over again. You can only beat someone for so long before they stop caring about whether they live or die. Then they fight, with whatever they have. We should know that from our own history. It never ends well.
In the end, Israel and Palestine will have to negotiate in good faith and all sides will have to give. The lunatics will want to kill, but once you remove the justification of it from most poeple, the violence dies. Ireland is a great example. But keep pushing poeple down and the situation will explode.
Why can't we all just get along?
Sad Sam.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Shalom Haver Sam,
It has little to do with being Jewish, and less to do with religion. It has everything to do with perceived victimhood. The most applicable sentiment was Simon's above, "A native people is a standing reproach to any coloniser."
And, from a great poet, an observation which might have been expected from a social worker about abusive families,
We must live in hope
Shalom/Salaam/Shanthi
ed
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Speaking of grand expansionist designs...
Truly a great Hero
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Shalom Eddie Baby,
#391
Splendid words from a splendid Burgher. You are a scholar, my friend.
Sleep well,
Sam
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In Avnery's opinion,
George Bush was a major factor in the Second invasion of Lebanon:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1184484639
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Someone asked why Israel was for joining the European Union. In Avnery's opinion, Bush is behind a lot of the recent troubles with Syria and Lebanon.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1184484639
"The most grievous expression of the situation in the occupied territories under Olmert and Barak is the daily killing.
Almost no day passes without a new atrocity. A pupil is run over, his injuries are critical, he is kept at the roadblock over an hour until he dies.
The army issues a laconic statement: he was on the list of those "forbidden to enter Israel".
Five soldiers seize a boy waiting at a bus stop and beat him to death. A sick woman arrives at a roadblock and is detained there for no apparent reason until she dies.
Such stories have become routine and no longer cause a ripple. Two or three journalists do still get upset and report them, the rest just ignore them. Senses have been blunted. It's not news"
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There have been general comments and denials concerning Israeli atrocities.
Here is a column, listing incidents, some including the comments of the killers, for it is reported by Israelis.
Frankly, I never realized that it was this bad, and this routine. I find it sickening:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1208009105
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395, Xie.
I do not know of these particular incidents. However one of the reasons they are not printed is that few will beiieve them. The Israelis are great people. It is the Arabs who are rotten. Is the newspaper biased?
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Careful with the sarcasm, Ms Marbles, some folk can't see the bulge in your cheek.
;-)
ed
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#397
For those who may not understand, it is Israelis who are reporting the incidents, but not the Israeli regime.
A weekly report, less graphic, is issued by
an organization called "The Other Israel", otheris.org
Perhaps Ed can come up with a little blue tab?
As to your comment, which reflects USA media reporting, immigration to the USA has been mostly from the Orthodox.
Brooklyn supplied us with the internal bombings by the Jewish Defense League,
the extreme Meir Kahane- a terror to both the USA and Israel, and the charming Baruch Goldstein- who went into a mosque with a machine-gun.
Since the "other" is the enemy thoughout the World, one must stick together and protect even the most nasty- at worst remaining silent.
Thus, the USA does not hear about the incidents. But, here they are:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1208009105
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There is of course no such thing as Palestinians. There were just arabs who lived in the area. before 1967 they were part of jordan and egypt. You never heard anyone talk of a palestinian state then. It was an invention to try to win the land back through political coercion when military force to destroy Israel failed.
In the end the so called palestinians are all doomed. They will die as the consequence of their own hatred. Much of Gaza's population will probably perish though some disaster ultimately attributable to themselves alone. What's left on the west bank that Isreal doesn't want or need for its own security can become part of jordan again.
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Anus,
A funny idea! Who are these folk?Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune, easily cured. Blind prejudice takes a bit longer, and sadly, there is no cure for idiocy.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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400. At 12:29pm on 12 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
There is of course no such thing as Palestinians. There were just arabs who lived in the area. before 1967 they were part of jordan and egypt. You never heard anyone talk of a palestinian state then. It was an invention to try to win the land back through political coercion when military force to destroy Israel failed."
There is no such people as Americans, only the descndants of european colonists with a bastardised European culture
"
"In the end the so called palestinians are all doomed. They will die as the consequence of their own hatred. Much of Gaza's population will probably perish though some disaster ultimately attributable to themselves alone. What's left on the west bank that Isreal doesn't want or need for its own security can become part of jordan again. "
Is this a call for genocide?
You are aware it is an international crime to call for, support a or endorse genocide in any way?
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The BBC today carries the latest Isrtaeli mocking offer for "peace"
Basically as long as the Palestinians consider themselves an inferior type of human being the Israelis will kill fewer of them.
Hopefully that puts to an end the "two state" solution farce
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Simon. Thanks for the "heads up"
Meanwhile more folk die while desperately trying to break the Israeli stranglehold on GazaApparently the Israelis are generously offering to accept the fertile Jordan Valley land in exchange for a wee bit of the Negev Desert. Yes, that's right:
Aye, the generous, peace-loving democratic Israelis....disgracing the honourable Judaic traditions of justice. They are not true Jews, but some abomination spawned in the fires of Holocaust.
Salaam, etc
ed
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Fair's fair!
Who could ask for more?Salaam, etc.
ed
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398. At 10:21am on 12 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Careful with the sarcasm, Ms Marbles, some folk can't see the bulge in your cheek.
;-)
ed
chuckle chuckle both of you.
i ahd a toungue just reading that one.
lol roflol and lol again.
happy hippy day
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There is of course no such thing as Palestinians.
wow delusional again is that wine you drink maybe ,like someone said, a rip off bottle .
methanol has many symptoms that seem to be showing.
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ma
strange in 1945 there was no Israel either.
so whats your point? that israel does not exist?
why is it that you regularly refer to the idea of yours about causing widespread faecal pollution in gaza. are you trying to incite a terrorist action against the people of gaza that as you say "ultimately attributable to themselves alone."
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400, Marcus.
I was born in New York. Does that mean I am actually from Connecticut or New Jersey?
You should join up with Magic who also believes there are no Palestinians. According to him there never was a Palestine. Well I am sure there is a Mars because that's were both you guys are.
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When I was in Israel and talking with some people about the Jordan River, I found it had been diverted so that it would not flow into Jordan. I ask why they did this. The answer was that the Jordanians would waste the water.
The only person I can think of who would take this at face value is Magic. Of course Marcus might, but that would be just to annoy us.
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#410
Don't you understand that they don't have souls and are therefore as animals?
Besides, we need the water for our swimming pools.
Did you notice the pools on the other side of the fence from where the Arabs had to buy their drinking water?
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11, Xie.
In effect that might be true. But what concerns me is that Israel had the power to harm a neighbor. I do not believe that Jordan has the power to harm Israel.
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The water issue is criminal.
411 tongue in cheek , don't gag.
good points.
the waterslide parks over the fence from an almost dry well on one report by the beeb a few years ago were disgusting.
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#53
Hi Doug,
The ability to pass on a price increase would depend on the price elasticity of demand, wouldn't it?
Sam
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mablelostallhermarbles...you were born in New York City? What were you spirited away to Iran by a band of Gypsies shortly after your birth? That or you went to Columbia University. One way or the other you had some misfortune to lose all your marbles. What were you, a hippie during the sixties? Somehow that does not fit with my image of someone with even the slightest sympathies towards Islam. Women of the sixties burned their bras, who would expect them to accept a veil, a hijab, or a Burkah. Hey mable, do you wear a burkah in public? If you cover your face, you can't legally drive in the US. That was tested in the courts in Florida. Driving a car is considered a priviege, not a right in the US. For women in Saudi Arabia, it's considered....a crime.
jf, its true there were no Israelis before 1948 since there was no Israel. But there was a People with a common culture and ancient history who traced their origins back to that land they'd been driven out of. I'm so glad a little of each sale of every frog goes to pay for defending them now. Somehow that seems particularly fitting irony in your case. Too bad Gus Hall isn't running for President. You could vote for him. I don't understand why we allow dual citizenship. I don't think it ever used to be that way. If you wanted to be an American, you couldn't be something else at the same time. Divided loyalties. When you took the oath to become an American citizen, you had to renounce loyalty to all other nations, flags, and governments. Which would you choose?
Tough luck for Jordan. One of the spoils of war when you fight even one let alone four genocidal wars and lose...they lost the water along with the land. They aren't getting that back either. I think they and the Egyptians are reconciled to the status quo. The rest will come around in time...if they want to remain alive. Funny how the vanquished can become the victors. The World Turned Upside Down. Just like at Yorktown.
Simple simon, not a call for genocide, just an observation of what there fate will likely be based on their history, their actions, their attitude. I know you are angry that the 21st century isn't like the 18th where the sensible British ruled the waves and had an empire upon which the sun never set. But guess what. That was a long time ago in another world.
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ma come on you thinkI have devided loyalties.
like you and lieberman.
see you on the boat.
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When you took the oath to become an American citizen, you had to renounce loyalty to all other nations, f