Political wives
I am loath to get involved with the Edwards business; he always looked like a cad to me and I could never understand his appeal to so many Americans. But the coverage of his wife seems to me to be as unquestioning as the media take on the man himself. The writer of the first letter here is spot on - I have seen no columnists go there but the fact is that they were a team.
The reckless effort to get him elected in the full knowledge that the enterprise could have blown up at any time was hers as well. She could have stopped him. She chose not to. Ever since Lady Macbeth political wives have been misunderestimated. They pull the strings. No humane person feels anything other than sympathy for her but that does not alter the fact that she decided to go ahead and let him run. And that run had consequences as the Hillary people are now complaining, not without some justification.
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Political husbands as well!
The Clintons hate the caucus system, and they want to see it die.
;-)
ed
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A great topic, Justin. Now we get to talk about non-people.
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well justin has been a very strong hillery supporter (she invites him to talk probably)
so what more can we expect from him
What BULL who says those that vote for edwards would go straight for hillery.
my missus was for the guy, but would have voted obama if not him,(ok in oregon so who cares),
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and justin how is it yuo think she is any worse than Hillery and her stick by her man and all that.
if this "scandle" had broken earlier Hillary would be dead in the water .
all the questions about her sticking by Bill and lying would be out.
what a farce you are
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It seems to me that fidelity and loyalty to marriage vows are not important to many public figures. I feel quite cynical when politicians and various religious leaders rant about the importance of defining 'marriage' in our laws and constitution. Many have no real concept of what that really means.
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#2Allmymarbles
I am sure that posts will take a left turn, then a u-turn and a few detours into something more interesting.
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Justin, I disagree. They probably thought it was a private matter, and would remain so. It should have, in my opinion.
If Edwards is responsible for sinking H. Clinton's boat, at least something good came of his candidacy.
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"Misunderestimated"! Back to Dubya speak again! Hope this is said with self-deprecating irony. As if the whole flare up is so ridiculous as to only illustrate the patent absurdity of American politics which makes a tempest in a teacup a better Shakespearean allusion than Lady Macbeth. Nothing in fact could be more bizarre than Mrs. Clinton taking umbrage at a candidate's marital infidelity Has she suddenly discovered this to be objectionable or did her 'pact of ambition' with her nominal hubby prevent her from raising the issue in the past? In fact, there have been credible reports of extramarital affairs by every president since at least Kennedy. And probably more than a few foreign correspondents could fit the "cad" description, too. And it would be hard to name a Duopoly Party presidential candidate, this year, or any other year,that wasn't characterized by "egotistism, narcissim and ambition". Hillary as much, or more, than any. It's hard to imagine why grownups would even give it a second thought anymore, unless it were to disract attention once again from the real issues. Since there's so little disagreement on those, then so-called 'character' has to become a substitute for substantive political discourse. Edwards' real crimes - like Hillary's - were immorally supporting the occupations of Iraq and Palestine and other life and death matters.
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The letter that is "spot on" is the one from David Terhune who wrote that the proper response to inquiries about such matters is: "this is none of your business." My sentiments, exactly.
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I have never been much of a fan of political wives. Just like army wives, their position in life is determined by their husband's rank, and THEY ACCEPT IT. That makes them nonpeople in my eyes.
I wait for the day when one of them bucks the system. "No, I won't stand by him and look like a mindless wimp." "I don't won't be very active as a First Lady. I have my own career."
Actually there was one First Lady who did not act as an apendage to her husband. Bess Truman. She didn't like Washington and made no bones about it. Being President was Harry's job, not hers. Please note that it did not hurt his career.
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its helping no one at all all these Hillary-philes moaning that she didnt get the nomination by trying to apportion blame. she wasnt good enough. thats the way it worked. stop moaning, move on.
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There is an awful lot of fuss about the sex lives of politicians. Although I do not admire philandering, I do not see how it impinges on an elected official's ability to do his job.
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I understand that this was a comment made by only one person, Howard Wolfson, who has since slouched away from it as analysis shows that a majority of Edwards' voters declared that Obama was their second choice.
The Edwards tale is past history and just shows how daft adult persons can be at times.
I would have thought that the BBC would be more interested in the Georgia situation which is an extraordinary development and throws considerable light on just how the neo-cons' foreign adventures have neutralised America's room for manouevre.
It also shows how dangerous thinking that you are a favoured friend of America can be (think Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Irag war, think beleaguered Masharaf of Pakistan). The Bush administration evidently encouraged President Saakashvili,
against the advice of Europe who thought he was flaky, and now hundreds more people are dead and their towns and lives wrecked and ruined.
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The political spouse can more often than not be a negative.
Theresa Heinz certanatly was with her arrogance and big mouth.
Michelle Obama could and that I think is the real reason she has not been out on the stump as much.
Cindy McCain is more in the background. But her work in Africa could be a plus.
In regards to Edwards I had a low oppinion of this sactimonious ambulance chaser. But you should feel for Elizabeth Edwards and her children
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I have to say that if they were just a progressive couple who liked to play around then it is no ones concern.
I'm not saying they are or were just that modern times will throw some good stuff at us that might as well be ignored.
who was the guy in the dresses back a while,hoover?
not an issue till more recently.
he's out And here i do agree with justin, I would not say cad just a little too"all american"
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8 proles
now that is"SPOT ON"
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13 chancythegardener
or how the neocons defence shield is adding nothing but fuel to russia posturing.
good comments ,the whole post
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Ref 5
The level of corruption among politicians is very disturbing indeed and, at the risk of sounding naive, I don't think it reflects the values or lifestyle of most of their constituents.
During the past few years we have learned about adulterous relationships, members of Congress chasing pages, doing improper things in men rooms, taking bribes to build mansions and buy yachts and many other improprieties. Needless to say, their behavior undermines the credibility of our political and religious institutions and results in us having a very cynical opinion of our leaders.
I think it is important to bear in mind that party affiliation does not seem to be a factor in what is ostensibly a bipartisan issue!
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14, Magic.
Given your earlier comments I am not surprised that you pigeon-hole the wives in distinct categories. In this case, left is bad, right is good. Now that's all settled and you don't have to think about it anymore.
Is it also possible that you prefer yes-dear wives that stay in the background to women who display their own characters?
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Ref 8
You are absolutely correct, although I believe "Presidential" marital infidelity goes all the way back to George Washington and includes several highly regarded presidents from both parties.
While I strongly condemn marital infidelity, I don't believe extra marital affairs should get the visibility they do, if nothing else because they dishonor the office of the presidency. I am much more concerned about presidents that lie, deceive, or use fear and other subterfuges to advance their agendae or achieve their goals.
As for espouses (limiting it to wives is no longer applicable) I think both Mrs. McCain and Mrs. Obama may prove to be a liability. One comes across as an elitist, the other is a loose cannon.
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The situation of Hillary Clinton as a first lady both to a governor and a president is interesting. She obviously felt her position was demeaning. Her way of validating herself was to make herself co-president, if she could. That didn't work which may have damaged her self-esteem further.
She then decided to run for the senate in New York, strongly backed by her husband. She hadn't a hope of winning that race, which was against Giuliani who was at the height of his popularity.
Lady luck stepped and Giuliani stepped out. She won by default, which she surely must have known. The second time around she made it on her own.
Then she decided to run for president, basing most of her experience on her husband's. In fact she had less experience as an elected official than did Obama. When she lost she blamed it on sexism, a self-serving excuse. Surely Obama had more against him as a black than she did as a woman. She couldn't accept that she lost it on her own.
Imagine the frustration of this woman, side-lined or defeated for much of her life. But it didn't have to be that way. She could have rejected the ceremonial firstladyships and struck out on her own. Why didn't she?
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#13Chancythegardener
I so agree! Why are we talking about the infidelity of politicians when another WAR is happening that is destroying lives and spilling precious blood!?!
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My #22 has been censored. That is so thrilling!
But it was true!
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ref #19
Typical sterotyping by you all the marbles.
Even liberal commentators thought Heinz was a liability.
Do you know anything about Cindy mCCain, like the work she has done in Darfur?
Michelle Obama is known for the famous "I am now proud of America comment"
Don't project your narrow mindness on me.
I wanted Condi Rice to run for President
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When it comes to anything involving sexual behavior, Americans are paranoid. The thought of anyone having sex that is not socially approved in the Book of Calvin is taboo. This is why USAID will not allow the Natives to use condones in the Third Word where AIDS is wiping out people by the millions.
Just the though of those people have unathorized sex drives the Pruritans crazy. So they preach against it on Sunday and make laws on Mondays forbidding sex and all thoughts of it.
Some people must realize that some spouses unerstand the weaknesses of the people they have married and remained with for years. If Elizabeth Edwards and Hillary Clinton don't understand the men they married, why have they stayed with them so long?
It is the outsiders who are bothered by the behavior of these men. What about the partners of the critics, what are or have their mates been doing. A speck in the eye cannot beat a beam for clouding vision.
Ease up and let lovers live the life they have chosen for themselves.
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aquarizonagal (#23), I agree that this is the important topic of the moment. In this forum, it should be in the context of the US election, and suggest that Justin start a thread on that subject.
I don't think either candidate is particularly strong on foreign policy. Among senators aspiring to the presidency, and my preference, the most experienced was Joe Biden.
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/biden_on_georgia.htm
Maybe he will become Secretary of State.
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apparently that french guy, the one who is deemed as useless because he came from a country that failed a poor medical student for being ,not good enough,managed to broker a deal.
well so much for trying eh, almost ww3, which coincidentally would have looked good for Mc Crime but not looks like it did more for Obama who again showed better judgement.
Maybe his wife just gives him better advice.
Michelle Obama is great by me.
If Hillary can distance herself from these crazy fervoured calls of how now there is a reason to vote for her.
Sorry not the right lady for the job.
for the reasons marbles points out.
plus like was said earlier she voted for the war. and went along while with the war as part of her prove she is strong and hawkish strategy, for the future.
It's not her gender that disqualifies her in my books.
She's just power hungry and will stoop as low as is needed to write the story she has planned.
And that I don't like.
So I'm as Hill put it glad Edwards managed to achieve something, but I doubt it was him.
the only reason she got so popular in the end was the republicans voting for her and the numbers were not hurt by the racists voting for her as well.(not all of you are racists, but there are plenty)
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26 especially paragraph 3 . again well put.
and to point out the christian thought that this is a very christian attitude.
forgiveness and not judging what you know little about.and despite all the reporters we know very little of others thought on their own relationships.
If the guy in the bog in the airport was not promoting anti gay retoric then there should have been nothing more said but get a room.
apparently John Edwards did, that is at least one saving grace then.
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Heinze was not a liability with voters like me, but then I'm a minority thinking person.
She was just a little too worldly in her views for america to handle so the commentators did get a little pointed about her.
But what she did or said wrong that was so out of order I never heard.
Plus as a Brit we all know Heinze means beans.
and there is no substitute.
:)
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Gary_A_Hill #7 This is classic!!!
Opinion, iif Hillary had thrown Bill from the White House way back when, ...
I think everyone would have much more respect for her,. that said, everyone would have said she made a mockery of the White House. Either way, Hillary lost. Poor Hillary.
Obamas wife has been chilled, (Obamas even had his wife sent to the re-education camp, just think what he'll do to his aids)
remember how 'angry' and 'in your face' she was. Now it's like she's on prozak, valuim or....
The Queen of Beer Delivery, Cindy McCain(R), seems to be of the class that the British may call Royalty. (inside and out, good character) I've looked for a downside to her, and if it's there, it is not being reported.
My wife, Queen of Home delivery of Beer, Vodka, Margarita making 'n Drinkin' wonder women of Texas Heritage that makes a salsa that makes a Mexican cry for more,.. Lisa (R), says,.. "Your friends and family speak more about you, than you can say about yourself." God I love her!
Heck, Okay 'nough said for wives.
hablamos mas
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#27Garyahill
Could we say that Biden should have some role in our next government?
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aquarizonagal (#32), I did say that. However, I have just discovered that both Biden and Obama supported NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine:
http://obama.senate.gov/press/080429-obama_joins_bid/
The Senate was unanimous, so on this question it doesn't matter who you are for. I think the Senate lost its collective mind.
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DougTexan (#31) raises a fascinating hypothetical legal question: If the spouse of a president went to family court for an order evicting the President from the White House, could she (or he) prevail?
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ref #32
You are assuming Obama will win. In that case yes, since Obama foriegn policy is among the thinest of his resume; he needs a Biden or a Richardson
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#30Jacksforge
Never underestimate people's ability for prejudice!
I agree about Theresa Heinz. I liked her. But politicians will sling mud, wade through mud and probably eat mud to get elected.
Consider the shameful way that the McCain family was presented in 2000 regarding their adopted daughter. Whether you like McCain or not that was despicable, not only for those who would do such a thing but for the many who were quick to believe and spread the rumor.
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It is a candidate who is going to be elected, not his wife (something Hillary never understood), so why are we spending so much time on Michelle Obama and Cindy McCain? We should not be focusing on them.
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34, Gary.
I would think he because she cannot evict him from a house that is neither his nor hers. There is not even rent involved.
Curious situation. Is there a lawyer out there who can set us straight?
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35, Magic.
It was precisely because Obama is a natural for the foreign arena that I voted for him. As a multicultural he will be sensitive to other nations and better able to negotiate effectively.
In foreign affairs Carter and Bush II were dead losses. McCain would be a dead loss as well because his solution to everything is boom - boom - boom.
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#34Garyahill
What a concept!
I needed a good laugh. How would that be handled? Hilary had her chance and I guess she blew it!
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34 and doug that one would have been funny .
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amm (#38), I agree. My question was made in jest. I am pretty sure that the President has a claim on the use of the property which no mere family court would attempt to tamper with.
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ref #36
It was prefudice.
It was that Theresa often forgot that it was John running for President and people wanted to hear from him not her.
She is disliked because she is obnoxious, thinks she is smarter than every one in the room.
This is not antidemocrat issue because most people never felt that way about Tipper Gore.
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I'm glad Edwards-the-lawyer soaked a bunch of corporations. Good for him. The more corporations we soak, the better. Better that lawyers get rich by defending victims of corporate atrocities than corporations and their execs stay rich while committing the atrocities.
Living in North Carolina, I'm glad Edwards ran for the Senate and beat an incumbent Republican. The fewer Republicans in public life, the better.
I'm disappointed in the man, and angry that he put every downticket Democratic candidate at potential risk. Ego and libido did him in.
I don't think the percentage of politicans who are unfaithful is significantly greater than in the general population. However, guys like Edwards -- youthful and attractive -- undoubtedly get many more opportunities to be unfaithful than the average guy.
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I don't know what Mrs Putin or Mrs Saakashvili thinks of Ossetia but I thought some of you might like to see a take on this from a Scottish columnist (where we might have a different take on the issue).
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#39Allmymarbles
My own thoughts precisely!
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It is debates like these whihc make clear the fatuos nature of populaer politics.
Leaving aside the simple fact that President Harding conducted his affairs next to the actual oval office, FDR had at least one mistress etc, what has Edwards marital status got to do with anything.
Unless one knows him and his wife intimately how can anyone judge why he had an affair, what his wife really felt about it.
And it is unfortunately a fact that someone can have an appalling domestic life but still be an effective leader - Lincoln was one example, Ghandi another.
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#45Oldnat
Thank you for your contribution to my understanding this latest conflict. I welcome all information as I know how isolated and provincial my own perspective can be. War is personally painful to me but I can also understand why some people will see this as a last and only resort.
I can add no more except my prayers for those who are suffering loss of their loved ones.
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Those that vote based on their perception of the candidate's spouse should stay home! There are too many problems ahead to worry about what the spouses say, wear, like or don't like. Personally, I could care less.
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Now for hypocracy....
How many of you guys have strayed? How many of you gals have strayed?
Did having an affair result in you no longer being able to do your job? Did it suddenly turn you into a crook?
I thought not! So what is all the fuss about?
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#50Dominickvila
Exactly! When have we ever cared about wives except for hairstyles and fashion? They only have what I call 'pillow power.' This could be bad but I can't worry about that today.
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#51Allmymarbles
Not me but I AM very old fashioned!
I agree, lets move along to something else now, Justin Webb.
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Let me rephrase my #47. Clinton knew about her husband's liaisons while he was governor of Arkansas and his campaign had a 'bimbo eruptions' control squad ready to discredit any allegations they made long before there was a certain White House intern. McCain has a similar story to Edwards, but he came clean about it.
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The "Hillary Women" are bigots. They are anti-men.
Does anyone know why it is OK to be anti-men but not anti-women?
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The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
-- Wm. Shakespeare, "Henry VI", Part IV
;-)
ed
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It is wishful thinking by the Clinton campaign that every vote for Edwards would have gone to her. Edwards endorsed Obama because his platform of change was closer to what his voters were looking for. And Clinton knew about her husband's 'weaknesses' when he was governor of Arkansas. Trying to squash caucuses is just sour grapes by a losing campaign that was outmaneuvered and beaten at their own game.
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ladies I agree
as to justin I think he maybe should ced to Katty Kay.
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It is wishful thinking by the Clinton campaign that every vote for Edwards would have gone to her. Edwards endorsed Obama because his platform of change was closer to what his voters were looking for. Her campaign was outmaneuvered and beaten at their own game, including the caucuses that they are now seeking to put an end to that drew so many new energetic voters into the political process.
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its true hill'er'y was crap all the way in every way.
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Ref 52
For the record, I used the term spouse not wife. In most countries women have as much of an opportunity to become President or Prime Minister as a man; and believe me when I tell you that I am not planning to get an Edwards "do", even if I could afford it!
Isn't there something a little more important to talk about than political spouses and infidelity?
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Like Lady Macbeth, Clinton, too, has blood on her hands for having voted for the war in Iraq. "Out, damned spot! out, I say!"
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62
was she referring to monica's dress?
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no I agree obviously. i think ALL that voted for the war should be made to stand up in front of the class and say why they did what they did.
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It isn't about Her!
Catharsis!
;-)
ed
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Now here's change we can believe in!
I'm Ed Iglehart, and I approve this ad
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U. S. NEWS
Report: Bush Approved Torturing of Americans
With high gas prices.
Poll: Nearly Three-Fourths of Americans Favor Off-Shore Drilling
Just not off their shore.
Bin Laden's Driver Convicted On One Charge
Being bin Laden's driver.
REMINDER
The sun never sets on a time horizon.
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TEam,
It's interesting that most cynics (me included) believe politicians are all fundamentally flawed, and it's either sex or money. I am always relieved when it is money. I remember hearing about John Major's affair with Edwina Curry and thinking
a) I never knew he had it in him, but I'm glad he did
b) What WAS she thinking
In a non sequitur
#56: While on some days I agree with the sentiments, Dick the Butcher is hardly a character to use as a role model. You remain, sir, a gentleman and a scholar
General question while we have the female bloggers attention. What is sexier, blacksmith or electrical engineer?
Sleep well,
Sam
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The Common Point
EdAfter reading this I can say that Edwards is discribed by this quote, and his actions summed up!
P. Goodman, New York Rev. Books 10(8), 22 (23 May 1968)
The answer throughout history in respect to the overuse of the commons has always been "War". Today this is no longer an option as the Nuclear option makes war an unreasonable answer.
As natural as disease, famine, fire and flood, ... war, what is it good for,.. population control.
buenos noches
peace
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Why, thanks Sam, and my best to you too.
From the Burns Unit:
Slainte!
ed
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SamTyler1969
I'm an old woman but I will answer your last question. The sexiest man is one who will actually listen to you. I've been married nearly 50 years and I wish my beloved would live forever or at least longer than me because I can't imagine life without him.
You sleep well too.
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Why Aquarizonagal,
Amidst all the vitriol, posturing and ranting in these blogs that is quite the sweetest and romantic thing I have ever heard.
Thank you for renewing my faith in the human spirit.
Awed Sam
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Hi Justin,
There is a precedent. Hillary feigned ignorance of Bill's peccadillo's in the first election, and even in the face of half a dozen women claiming sexual harassment. The Gennifer Flowers affair was public months before the election, and the handlers swept it under the rug as a horrible political smear. During the Clinton/Monica debacle, it wasn't until he had to publicly apologize to the American people that Hillary finally acknowledged his issue. But, she conveniently forgot about it as soon as the topic died in the press.
Now still to this day, Hillary plays the "noble" victim and remains faithful to her husband, even though rumors still promulgate of his Manhattan trysts. Which is worse, Hillary being in denial of Bill's flings, feigning denial of them, or thinking people are ignorant enough to fall for her bluffed denial?
Why would it be different for Edwards, or any other presidential candidate?
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68, Sam.
Depends which one will chase me. (Past tense - I'm caught.)
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Dear Mr. Webb: Gratified to see you picked up on the fact that Edwards was/is a cad. And you are spot on--the narcissism cuts both ways. Both husband and wife were willing to sacrifice anything, the truth, their party, their country, in the quest for power.
We really dodged a bullet here! In the unlikely event that Edwards had won the office, how would he have been able to serve, distracted by the salacious details being published, and crippled by a complete lack of credibility?
I've said it before: Think this through, friends!
This is not a game. Lives are on the line--our lives, and the lives of millions around the world who have no vote this November. It is up to us to choose wisely.
Given the behaviour of the leading Dems of this generation, I believe they are unable to lead, because they have no working relationship with the simple idea of truth vs. falsity.
Think this through, friends! We could have ended up with John Edwards in the White House!
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73. Real.
She never seemed particularly upset by his infidelity, except for the publicity.
I think their attachement to each other goes further than the usual male-female arrangement. I have often wondered if they had an open marriage.
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The most dreadful thing about Edward's affair
is that it shows how politicians are bred.
It will probably take until puberty for the child's
crocodilian smile and $400 haircut to emerge.
Who needs a DNA test? The ruling class has
different DNA than the rest of us.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Edwards story is not in itself that surprising.
The surprising part is the spectacular, stunning arrogance and hubris of a man who obviously did not care about his party or their chances for the White House.
If he had been the nominee for either president or VP, this story would have broken eventually, and he would have been toast - and so would the Dems.
The media played a large role in protecting and shielding him, and this is receiving far more coverage than the story itself.
I agree with the comments about his wife. A few people have mentioned it. They both were treated with respect and compassion, while using her illness for publicity, sympathy, votes and money.
That is very low, even for a politician.
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Wow does Obama's wife ever have a big mouth on her. If Obama gets elected, we'll have one hell of a time with her as first....whatever :-) David Letterman and Jay Leno will have an endless supply of new material.
I never liked Edwards. I thought he was phony and stupid. Now I'm proven right. He fell into the same mind trap as Gary Hart. And Clinton. If he got elected, we could start the impeachment hearings the next day after the inauguration. I wonder where he stands on the position of does "is" mean is? Tough question for a candidate who never was.
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This story belongs where it began - supermarket tabloids. It's celebrity gossip.
The political story is that he lied to his staff. They have every right to feel hurt and betrayed by these shenanigans. I am baffled by the argument, hinted at above, that knowledge of this affair should have hindered his decision to seek office. And actually, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he recovers from this and returns to work for the Obama administration (2nd term, of course).
The Clinton whinge is equally baffling. Edwards voters placed Obama overwhelmingly as their second choice.
By the way Justin, has anyone used the word "cad" in published journalism since 1918? While you're at it - bring back the word 'cove'. I like that one.
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Post 81 GhetNormal...
I say sir, you have a dashed cheek taking Mr Webb to task over his use of the word cad. I'd say that you, sir, are nothing more than a bounder, nay a rotter. In fact a blackguard of the first order and not a soul would speak against Mr Webb if he were to call you out behind the BBC offices and give you a jolly good thrashing!!!
You're all doing very well !!
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#68. The blacksmith (or farrier) for my horse since most electrical engineers that I know could not even rewire an outlet, let alone a barn.
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This story belongs where it began - supermarket tabloids. It's celebrity gossip.
The political story is that he lied to his staff. They have every right to feel hurt and betrayed by these shenanigans. I am baffled by the argument, hinted at above, that knowledge of this affair should have hindered his decision to seek office. And actually, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he recovers from this and returns to work for the Obama administration (2nd term, of course).
What has his private life to do with his staff? Do they tell each other about every sexual intrigue they indulge in?
Has H John McCain told anyone a comprehenisve digest of his activities in Vietnam while on leave?
Yes they might feel irked but it is not or should not be an issue.
Only in the US would you get peopl so naive as to think their politicians are always telling the truth about their ex lives. Especially in a country with such high divorce rates and huge porn industry.
After Nixon, etc, etc you would think they would have grown up.
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Ref #82:
I say old bean, hold your horses, what? Dashed rum affair all round, no call to bandy around insults willy-nilly. Keep a straight bat and it'll all turn out tickety-boo.
Pip-pip!
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The difference between a Boris Johnson or Pierre Trudeau, and a politician like Edwards is that, for the first, their wayward conduct and the dash of the cad was/is part of their glamour and charm; whereas Edwards tried to be all too clean and wholesome and that never rings true. It has always been thus: John Major's government fell apart as various ministers took the back to basics theme all too literally and swived their way to infamy (it all started, I seem to remember, when the Honourable Member for Putney and Secretary of State for Culture was photographed with an unemployed actress who seemed to be paying particular attention to his toes ...).
At the heart of Wolfson's complaint, however, is something different: the lack of 'agenbite of inwit' that the Clinton campaign has so completely demonstrated all the way through. The campaign failed for two reasons. The first is that Clinton was a poor Chief Executive who wasted resources and who failed to take the competition seriously until it was too late. The second is the absolute incompetency of Mark Penn as a strategist (and Clinton must be held responsible for choosing him). The first thing that a strategist does is anticipate failure so that it doesn't happen; rather, like Clinton, he only assumed success. One of the prime reasons why people do not want to retire Clinton's debt is that $5 million of it is Mark Penn's bill, and until she negotiates a serious reduction in his fee no-one is really going to want to stump up. I'm sure that 'not being paid' is part of the reason for his present dubious conduct, so she should remind him that he won't get paid if he continues to stab the Democrats in the back.
I find it interesting that this is happening while Obama, wisely, takes a break. Now is Clinton's opportunity to get her cabal under control, and that includes Penn and Wolfson as well as all those supporters who are still in denial.
And, on another topic, who is the most game-changing VP for Bill Clinton to introduce on the Wednesday night: could it be Bill Gates? now that would provide a hefty slice of private campaign finance ....
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One thing not mentioned is how the MSM treated this story.
For a long time they ignored it unlike the NYT who printed a baseless allegation on John McCain cheating on Cindy McCain.
When the NYT printed the Edwards story they devoted half the print space.
Only the Outbundsman admitted the double standard.
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Political candidates for high office have to show by deed that they are worthy of the trust placed on them! Spouses have a tremendous effect on their political partners. Michele has a positive effect on Obama and has inspired him to reach the pinnacle of political ambition. Bill and Hillary Clinton have a strong bond despite rough patches. Edwards by his foolish actions showed that he was prepared to ride rough shod over decent values when it suited him. So in hind-sight he was not squeky-clean as the impression he tried to project. He has placed the Democratic Party in an uncomfortable position. The Democrats under Obama and Hillary have loads to offer after eight years of Republican inertia. Change is vital and may this clarion call for change resonate throughout America.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Misunderestimating"... is that a word?
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Candace9839 #83
I am sure all the men in your life are inadequate in every other skill of value to you as well.
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In my opinion there is a rather more disturbing element to this than the simple fact of Edwards many and manifest character flaws.
If you live in the US and didn't read the National Enquirer you would have been completely unaware of this until last week.
There was a massive refusal to report in the main stream media and the blogosphere on this issue. I first saw this reported in non US media 6 months ago, hell it was reported in the Namibian media a month ago.
This appeared to be a combination of a general Democrat lean in most of the media as well as a nasty intellectual arrogance, "It's been reported in the National Inquirer, of course we won't run it".
If this had been one of the Republican runners do you think it would have been handled with such "understanding and delicacy"......
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Re:#91 Not true at all. High marks on the teamwork front from ex-military and sports minded types. But I have conclusive proof on the electrical engineering aspect having worked with young and old of said ilk and having had to bandage their hands with blue electrical tape on installations where they were asked to work on their CAD masterpieces but failed to stroll over to the factory and talk to those on the assembly and wiring lines to get an idea of what the practical concerns might be. Like not being able to reach in and swap out the leftmost card in a shielded chassis because the clearance was too tight, or the cables being too fragile to bend and connect to the other components without breakage. Best fix was to take them on the installations for a first hand lesson.
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Wise and temperate words from Oxford, Mark.
Nuff said!Young Mr Grace & Spinoza, good imitations of that iconic Englishman, David Niven, who just happened to be from Auchtermuchty (or was it Aberfeldy?) in Perthshire, Scotland...;-)
Ms Marbles, my hand is up, and today on Radio 4's "Women's Hour" (My source of all truth) I was informed that 40% of all married folk stray at one time or another...a minority, but a rather large one...;-(
Happy Wednesday
ed
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'Simply put'
It's been six hours, need a new draw line otherwise we turn into 'semites-antisemites'
No Carpenters for the barn?
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#91
There you go again, bringing the place down. Are you descended from the Pilgrims, they were a miserable bunch as well.
So far it's pretty unanimous, blacksmiths are sexier than electrical engineers.
Sam
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In reply to 76, allmymarbles:
"She never seemed particularly upset by his infidelity, except for the publicity.
I think their attachment to each other goes further than the usual male-female arrangement. I have often wondered if they had an open marriage."
Political expedience? Business relationship? Sham? Bill's issues with women borderline on the pathological. It is a serious character flaw that was ignored by media for fear of being labeled as muckrakers.
In reply to 88, Pancha_Chandra:
"Bill and Hillary Clinton have a strong bond despite rough patches. "
You mean she still finds him useful after being continually humiliated by his embarrassing trouser games. What makes Bill different than the masher who heads off to the pub looking for female companions, whist his wife is at home watching the kids? Whatever this "bond" is comprised of, it is not "marriage". His antics only make her appear to be pathetically attached.
Check out Bob Woodward's book "The Agenda".
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I don't understand how people can say that affairs are not the business of voters. A politician that has skeletons like this is very vulnerable to blackmail. Could you imagine a foreign government having this type of information.
"I know we're invading George Mr. President but if you call on NATO to act the NY Times may just get a call about your love child."
I know it's a shock to some but character actual does matter.
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Post 94
Ed thank you for your comments on my previous post.
Alas I fear they have come too late as after giving Spinoza's comments due consideration I realised that I had indeed been too harsh and that my conduct was unbecoming of a gentleman. I instructed my gentleman's gentleman, Rumbold, to take a small glass of the second best whisky and shoot himself on my behalf. However I doubt that the now widowed Mrs Rumbold will need much consoling as the below stairs gossip reports that she has a thing for blacksmiths.....
You're all doing very well !!
PS re your point about David Niven - one thing England and the US have in common is that many of the best Englishmen, like many of the best Americans, have been Scots.
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"Only in the US would you get peopl so naive as to think their politicians are always telling the truth about their ex lives."
Simon:
Spare me the nonsense about "only in America".
That is just trendy, fatuous anti-American cant.
Can anyone say Profumo?
Or Christine Keeler?
The story here is Edwards' contempt for his own party, his manipulation of those who supported him and his disregard for the potential results if he had been the nominee
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Speakin' of wives I thought this old peom might bting to light, how it is the United States,.. Nah, just kiddin'.
ENJOY
So, tell me again about the gene pool in politics! :)
all for one,.. or the other
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Mark Warner from Virginia is the key note speaker for the Democratic Convention so at least they did not cave on the issue of Hillary demanding she be given the distinction.
Democratic convention key note speaker announced
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Justin says, "he always looked like a cad to me and I could never understand his appeal to so many Americans."
And I say, what about the fact that he proposed the only health plan that covered every American worker? Will Obama look like a cad to you when he fails to make any significant changes in health care coverage in the USA? Obama knows the weakness of his ideas, he is not stupid, but he is a typical politician, led around by the nose by CEOs and has not a single program that will really help US working families, the bottom 40% of the US population with an average family net worth of less than $1,500.
I have to confess, I really never thought about what a cad looks like but I have not heard you call Bush a cad, or McCain one for being part of the Keating payoff (bribery) scandal, or the Clintons cads for taking millions from the Inidian IT body shops and then voting for, or signing bills in part of the sell off that has replaced 50% of all IT engineers working in the USA with low wage, easily abused, foreign workers on H-1B and L-1 visas.
Maybe a cad cheats on his wife, or maybe a cad slurs someone else without respect for the real facts that your voters elected Tony Blair who, with George Bush, sexed up the justification for invading Iraq, and we elected Bush because you did not worn us in time that both were cads.
You can tell by looking, right?
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Is "misunderestimated" a real word or. like so much these days, just something invented by a BBC journalist?
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Given the behaviour of the leading Dems of this generation, I believe they are unable to lead, because they have no working relationship with the simple idea of truth vs. falsity."
57 old south.
Ok so the republicans never get caught with their trousers down eh?
No scandals there , ever.
No false wars and lying to congress when they can be bothered to turn up to testify,no.
Do you have your head in the sand and are you shouting"la la la la la la la la la..."
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those ten commandments for business failure that were being discussed on the charlie rose show are something the clintons should look at.
arrogance was near the top
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marbles i think you were right.
she dumped him.
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Post 104 buckswatcher :
"Is "misunderestimated" a real word or. like so much these days, just something invented by a BBC journalist?"
I believe Justin was referencing the phrase "they misunderestimated me" which was said in 2000 by a certain George Walker Bush.
You're all doing very well !!
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93
excellent.
you obviously understand one of the biggest problems in design.
Can you make it.
Can it be fixed.
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71 aqua good on you
72 sam and you
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Ed that was very gracious of you :) it seems some of the others didn't notice the subtleties ...
Well, here is what we know (and thank you Candace):
Monday, One Nation
Speaker: Michelle Obama
Tuesday, Renewing America's Promise
Speaker: Hillary Clinton
Keynote Address: Mark Warner
Wednesday, Securing America's Future
Speaker: Bill Clinton
VP Acceptance Speech: Unknown
Thursday, Change you Can Believe In
Presidential Nominee: Barack Obama
The Olympics end on Sunday, so the VP will not be announced until the day. There is no slot so far for Al Gore, or Richardson though Richardson might get some time on the Monday and Gore might be asked to speak on the Thursday. What we are certainly going to see over the next week is a series of one by one announcements that flesh this picture out. Perhaps the Warner announcement was intended to put pressure on Hillary to cool her supporters demands ...
The Wednesday night theme is not just about foreign policy, but about climate change, financial prudence, and reducing oil dependency. I still can't help feeling that Biden, Bayh, hagel, Kaine, et al, don't quite fit the bill for that Wednesday VP slot, and as other speakers are announced and names removed from the list, the likelihood of the VP being someone no-one expects will grow forever shorter.
So here's a task, Justin. Isn't it time the BBC interviewed Bill Gates, following his retirement from Microsoft, to talk about global challenges, the federal deficit and the recession, and US politics more generally, including whether he's ever consider being involved ...
Two things we can be sure of about the VP: it won't be Edwards, and it won't be Lieberman. With every day that passes, Hillary's failure to control her cabal also ensures it won't be her.
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85,82,81
keep it up
and 99
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doug thats a good one.
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though I think his affair is low in importance I did not vote for him because he seemed a little untrustworthy to me, same as Hillary.
Though he had some great Ideas.
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Mark, I forgot to say: Anyone but Gate$! Anyone! The man has very little integrity, has made a fortune by bringing other folks' ideas to market before ready (which is usually why the originators were holding back). The software is crap, and the users are left to be virtual beta testers, and made more dependent on the stuff by its shortcomings - is that ironic?
Show Windoze the door!
;-)
ed
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untrustworthy i would have to say would have been a far better quality than psycho which is how I view Hillary
un trustworthy just means you have to keep an eye on them.
psycho means you have to fear.
also remember when I say untrustworthy, that I do not really trust cops polititians and one hell of a lot of people when it comes down to it.
I do trust that he would have upheld workers rights way more than any GOP nominee.
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Mr. Webb: Great, appropriate use of the word 'cad'!
Here's another one, much more accurately descriptive of Mr. Edwards, which you can look up in an American lexicon:
'Trailer Trash'
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What troubles me about infidelity among politicians is not so much the infidelity as the arrogance and duplicity. If a politician is willing to lie to his wife and lie to his staff and supporters and lie to the voters about an extramarital affair, what else will they lie about? Duplicity can become a habit. That's the part that should make a voter step back and take another look at a straying politician.
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Re:#116 Right on about Edwards. And as for Hillary, perhaps Serial Nom? No assassinations of candidates after June would be the no white shoes after Labor Day rule.
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#111, MarkFromOxford, this is a subtle point,
but down here in Silicon Valley we don't consider
Bill Gates to be an American.
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Justin, Justin.
Edwards makes hundreds of millions of dollars as an attorney by using "science" later shown to be "pure junk", and then among other things, starts a company in the Carribean to avoid paying US taxes.
If after all that the man is self-deluded enough to think he could actually become president -- why would a little thing like marital infidelity cause him pause? And why would his wife do anything to upset the gravy train now after she has profitted so much already? After all, she had Hillary as her role model right?
Why would any Democrat worry about anything related to marital infidelity? Everyone knows the media, BBC included, give Democrats a pass on that subject as shown by how you all handled (or rather ignored) this story -- yet were so quick to accuse McCain of the same when there was absolutely no evidence and only unfounded rumors.
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TimothyR444 (#100), "contempt"? "Manipulation"? Come, now. This is Machiavellian spin. It was really just an ordinary dalliance by a man with ordinary weaknesses.
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cdgators (#98) has his formulation exactly backwards. It is only when peccadillos are considered the business of the public that political leaders must keep them secret, making them vulnerable to blackmail.
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everalm (#92) does not understand how the American press operates. He faults them because they did not go after someone he is in political opposition to, concluding that they must therefore be on his side.
In fact, the mainstream press did not publish the story because they did not have verifiable facts. This is what distinguishes them from tabloids, or "sheets," which publish rumors as if they were facts. Once Edwards made a public statement admitting to some of the facts, the mainstream press went ahead with it, to the extent the facts were now known.
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123
gary hill.
true 'nuff
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GhetNormal (#81), here is an example of the use of the word by an American journalist in 1919:
"The most disgusting cad in the world is the man who, on grounds of decorum and morality, avoids the game of love. He is one who puts his own ease and security above the most laudable of philanthropies."
- H.L. (Henry Lewis) Mencken
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Gary_A_Hill,
I was commenting on reality not on how things "should be". I prefer to deal with the reality on the ground and the reality is people care. People care about a lot of stupid things and neither of us can change that.
I still can't figure out the whole missing white woman thing on the American news. One missing person is not worthy of months and months of 24-hour news coverage. But again enough people must care or the news channels wouldn't cover it.
-Chris
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What I find most objectionable about Edwards' conduct was that he got involved with a woman who has been described (politely) as a "new age spiritualist" (from Newsweek).
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the main stream press should also fly to the moon to make sure that that b52 bomber with the pilot in the cockpit is not there.
though they did get it right this time
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Re:#128. And a former yoga instructor so a member of the bendy bunch. Namastay.
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Suppose that should be spelt 'namaste' so my spelling is at least better than her documentary film making credentials.
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#115Edinglehart and #120Gunsandreligion
Both of you are right on!
At least I agree. I nearly choked on my tea this morning when I read the suggestion of Gates for VP. I have some names for him (that I can't repeat or I will be censored) as I struggle with the new Windows Vista.
I AM a fossil but I sometimes long for my very first computer and DOS. Then, most of the time, I could figure things out. And if I wanted something gone, it was GONE!
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Erratum in post #126: Mencken's middle name is properly spelled "Louis." I copied an incorrect instance of his name without checking it. I regret the error.
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Wow! I missed this whole Gates for VP thing!
That's what I get for having a real job.
This just goes to show how out of touch the
political establishment is with the rank and
file in this country.
If Justin wants to come out to Silicon Valley,
I could connect him up with the right people
to give him wheelbarrels full of dirt on the
guy, as well as on Carly.
I don't care where he dumps the dirt, we have
plenty to get rid of.
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Re:#132. A DOS prompt is still available under Accesories and the beauty of Windows is if you get the blue screen of death, everything is gone.
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There probably is a way to replace the
blue screen with these wonderful poems:
http://strangeplaces.net/weirdthings/haiku.html
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To#135Candace9839
Thanks but I dislike Vista so much that I have not really 'played with it.' I think that technology has left me behind. I was still using a ten year old computer with Windows 98 until just recently. When it crashed and burned and I could not fix it anymore I almost cried!
To#115Edinglehart
I visited your link for Ubuntu (love the name and idea, my son-in-law is African) but I think it may be for people who are much more tech than I am. I do use Firefox for my browser and I love it. I am still plowing through my "Vista for Dummies" book.
Big, big SIGH!
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Real.
Powerful, monied men find no shortage of women. In fact they don't have to look for them; the women find them. In the same way, beautiful women, even the brainless ones, constantly draw men to them. It sounds very much like survival of the fittest.
A cold-blooded appraisal? Perhaps, but nonetheless true.
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Young-Mr-Grace (#82...) I shall have to leaf through my collection of Saki short-stories before I attempt to reply in Edwardian tongue. But I dare say that if Mr. Webb saw fit to thrash me I wouldn’t entirely dislike it.
Gary_A_Hill (#126) I stand corrected. Trust that louse Mencken to scupper my chronology. So, only 89 years since its last usage.
I challenge Justin to employ the word 'knave' in his next posting: if Cheney's too easy a target, Randy Scheunemann's out there in the open.
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Ms. Marbles:
Your succinct analysis of sexual selection could
be used to infer the conclusion that there will
essentially be two classes of people walking the
Earth:
1. Rich beautiful people, and
2. Brainless poor people
However, have you considered that occaisonally
we may wind up with stupid rich people running
the country? That seems to be the case lately.
Frustrating genetics seems to be the job of
our political system.
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ref #111
Regarding your VP analysis I must agree. Although Joe Lieberman is far more qualified than Obama to be President. For that matter if the Dems had ignored the hate groups like Move on and Daily Kos and nominated him in 2004 they could have won.
Why? because the center and independent voters decide the election
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Thanks for the Haiku, G'nR!
;-))))
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wow so centre and independent mean zionists.
that's new to me,
as anything is to someone so involved in antiquity as me.
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marbles i was going to say in answer to sam's post on the merits of smiths verses engineers that I might be bias.
which I am.
There are women in both fields so I will try to make this a gender non bias reply.
If said Smith were as me , not so good at marketing , and said engineer was just rich then I do suspect that the engineer would have no problem with the opposite sex(or indeed the same)(saving personality issues).
But I would contest the Smith could at least avoid the worry of"are they just with me for the money?"
I know that the person I spend my life with is certainly not with me for the cash.
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115, 120 and 132 in particular, sorry about the breakfast ... I've just been out to a nice old-fashioned English pub for a pint of White Horse Guv'nor :)
There is a certain tongue-in-cheek in my suggestion of Gates, though nothing of that kind would surprise me, and I'd love to see the interview ... after all McCain may well run with Carly ... What I do think is that the media has got the whole VP thing very wrong: they are looking for the obvious old-school politicos and that won't work unless it's big Bill C .... Rather the selection has got to be a big high profile name, possibly from a serious business background; or a game-changer for some other reason ... I just don't think Obama is going to play by the standard book, but maybe I'm wrong. So Hillary can pout and Edwards look for something in the middle, but they are no longer where the game is at for all their shame and guilt-trips.
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Big is Beautiful
Economics as if McCain mattered
;-)
ed
P.S. Aquarizonagal, What do you use your computer for? Firefox comes with Ubuntu, as does Open Office, and you can install Thunderbird for email (I love it as much as I love Firefox, at least five years after adopting both).
If all you need is web and wordprocessing, Ubuntu is just fine, and will do virtually everything Windoze does, but with far fewer bluescreen-type moments.
What else do you use your computer for? Photos? Cool in Ubuntu. Movies? Cool in Ubuntu. networking with other computers? Cool, even with ones running Windoze.
You can have both Windoze and Ubuntu on the same computer and choose which you want to at startup. Both can use the same files (e.g. email, documents, firefox profile (bookmarks, etc.)), and, after a while, you'll find you're hardly ever booting into Windoze....
As recommended by Nelson Mandela
;-)
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ref #143
For some reason you think being a Zionist is a negative thing. It is something to be proud of.
But as usual you are missing the point, Lieberman always gets a high rating from rep and independent voters. The democratic nomineee can't win without them, just as a rep can't win without independetns and Reagan democrats.
Your lesson for the day
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140, Guns.
I think the powerful monied men part is obvious. These would represent aggression and a better chance of survival.
As to beautiful women, there are a couple of interesting aspects to this, both relating to health. It has been found that people with symmetrical bodies and faces are healthier (to our eyes, also more beautiful).
Women with more feminine forms, narrow shoulders and wide hips are more successful at child-bearing. A big-shouldered woman many be great at sports, but less sexually attractive.
The current trend is for taut-muscled women with minimal body fat. That is just an intellectual fad. Marilyn Monroe body looked nothing like that.
Obviously if only the powerful married the beautiful, population would diminish rapidly. But there is such a think as first-pick, etc.
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#146Edinglehart
Thanks,
Nearly everything you mentioned plus some special programs for land management which should work with anything. I had trouble with Thunderbird for e-mail due to my ISP, I think. I haven't taken the time to work it out yet.
I love how much I learn here. Thanks again, I will try Ubuntu!
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Aquarizonagal (& any others interested),
Dual booting with Linux (ubuntu or other) and Windoze
and sharing browser and email files - a pretty clear "how-to" for setting up the necessary space for files to be used by either/both system.
for starters
Ubuntu can read (and/or write to) ALL your Windoze files, but Windoze can only use certain filing systems...typical.
The methods described are what I used some time ago, and work fine. I have long since banished mickey$oft from the antique computer I sometimes use (like right now), and haven't visited Windoze on my laptop in at least a month. The antique was supplied with Win ME (awful), and never worked well, but does just fine with ubuntu, even if the processor speed is much slower than the laptop. The two computers share files through my wireless router via a very simple ftp system. If you're interested, I can post (or email) some info, or just look here
It's not as complicated as it may look ;-)
xx
ed
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Aren't there other sites for discussion of computer operating systems? I wish Justin would start a new thread.
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Rich, powerful men
Attractive? Y'all judge.
xx
ed
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Gary,
Lighten up.
Where's the harm?
Have a virtual drink on me.
Slainte
ed
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147 I'm not missing any point or learning from you.
after all I already read the aipac rubbish and so nothing you say will be new.
but what you forget after lecturing us on being open minded is that you are as narrow in your thoughts as MA. both concerned with nothing but Zionism. the be all and end all for you it seems.
probably with the hope of end all as well.
America breeds a dangerous sort of patriot. those that are patriotic for places they know nothing about.
So why don't you MA and lieberman go get on a boat and be Zionists. MOVE THERE.
if not stop inflicting your hateful trash on the poor people that do live there, from both sides.
Another chicken hawk.
so why does lieberman not move to Israel.
because the people there hate him?
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#140 et al,
I have to admit that I am a middle aged, balding slightly tubby guy of perhaps slightly above average intelligence, married for life. That said I have never really found it difficult to find temptation, (And I hasten to add resist it. To use an angling metaphor I have sometimes caught a fish not so much to throw it back as throw it back and run in terror from the river). From this I guess you can deduce:
- Opportunity plays a big part, I stay in a lot of hotels and fly in a lot of first class cabins
- There are an awful lot of 'professionals' working hotel bars
- I have an aura of being rich and powerful
or, and I think this may be true but will defer again to the ladies
- If you can make someone laugh, sometimes they try to sleep with you
Right, off to the bar.
Foolish Sam
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I am going to wade into this.
Our Latino/Mexican immigrants are good, hard working people, conservative, with strong spiritual, family and community ties. They are by and large an asset to this country.
Anyone who is really worried about drug lords crossing our borders should demand the return of our National Guard from Iraq. After all it is one of the National Guard's jobs to defend our borders!
A total pox on all you narrow minded anti-immigration people!
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To answer any questions that might arise, I am not Latino, Mexican, Hispanic etc.
When asked race/ethnicity, I usually check: OTHER and then write in 'PURPLE.'
Fini!
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tahnk god I'm not anti imigration because by the way she talks I suspect God might listen to Aqua more than many others.
And by that I mean she seems to be his sort of person.
Good on you aqua.
But I hope he smites them.
(thats why he wouldn't listen to me,I'm too hot headed
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#156 aqua
If you ever leave Arizona, then we'd welcome you here to fight against the equally racist Brits who rail against our East European immigrants who are also "good, hard working people, conservative, with strong spiritual, family and community ties. They are by and large an asset to this country."
You're my kind of woman! (though we're both happily married and I have neither money nor power!)
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The only political wife I feel sorry for is LAURA BUSH. Can you imagine what this intelligent woman has gone through with this man? He is a recoving alcoholic and drug addict; he is a liar that has dragged the US throug the mud in the name of being a WAR PRESIDENT; she has had to live off the charity of her inlaws because her husband has bankrupt every business he has been involved in, now he had done it to the United States and pulled the so-called Global Community behind us.
Laura Bush is the woman who deserve our sympathy. Look at her face and body language when she thinks the camera is not on her. Remember when Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip came to the White House, and when their car was approaching, Laura gave Georgie a little push in the small of his back which was caught on camera. Was this a Freudian Slip of the unconscious?
One never knows, do one. But being married the the world's most hated man and religious hypocrite can't be much fun.
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In Reply to #138, allmymarbles:
"Powerful, monied men find no shortage of women. In fact they don't have to look for them; the women find them. In the same way, beautiful women, even the brainless ones, constantly draw men to them. It sounds very much like survival of the fittest.
A cold-blooded appraisal? Perhaps, but nonetheless true."
Not cold-blooded. Brutal. As in brutes, or the lack of society. Our society needs Men and Women, especially its leaders, who are role models of how to be good fathers and mothers, who honor their promises, honor their marriage, and honor the law.
Otherwise, the brute, the bounder, the cad, the criminal prevails. What America, and maybe the world has lost sight of is that it is people of good character that make good decisions, and make good leaders. The American's need to choose their leaders more wisely, and well before the caucuses and primaries. It is often the problem with any job that those who seek it passionately, or are willing to buy it, are the least qualified to hold it. Often, they have their own agenda.
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161. Real.
I am not making a moral case. Think Darwin.
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http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/13/kristol-colin-powell-to-endorse-barack-obama/
Colin Powell to endorse Obama?!
Could he be the surprise VP choice?! I doubt it. Two blacks on the same ticket would be impossible for some to stomach.
I think it could be Al Gore or Michael Bloomberg
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163, Cyril.
Nope. Not either.
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ref #154
Personal attacks again?
Don't talk about narrow mindness to me. Look in the mirror.
There is a difference between having a rational difference of opinion; say the way Dominick and I might have
(Note Dominick I hope you don't mind using you as an example of a person who you can have cival discourse)
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147, Magic. Re: Lieberman
I never vote for a candidate who talks to god rather than the people he represents. For that reason I did not vote for Jimmy Carter and, althugh I favored Gore over Bush, I did not vote that year because Joe Lieberman was Gore's running mate.
Time proved me right. His liberal democratic consitituency in Connecticut was strongly against the Iraqi War. Lieberman was strongly for it. He lost the primary. When he ran as an independent it was largely the republications who got him elected.
It does not bother me that Lieberman feels favorably towards Israel. What does bother me is that he favors Israel over America. When he talks of Israel bombing Iran (which would include us) this is not in America's best interest. Actually it is not in Israel's best interests, either, but he is too blinded by his prejudice to see that.
I have another problem with devoutly religious candidates. Apart from their sanctimony, which is obnoxious, I cannot help but think that they use god as an excuse to do whatever they want.
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In reply to #162, allmymarbles :
"I am not making a moral case. Think Darwin."
Oh, I understand the Darwinian reference. What I'm implying is that conscience and morality are an important evolutionary step that separate us from beasts. When we decide to think with the brain between our ears, we are civilized. Otherwise, we are rutting primates, or violent brutes. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is supposed to be the "thinking" ape, and our claim to evolution is that we have formed a cooperative society.
I believe the words civilization and "society" imply something above a shrewdness, or den, or lair, or nest. We ascribe the behavior of opportunistic coupling with dumb animals, and even some of them have complex mating rituals that result in lifelong monogamy.
Whenever the incidence of bad behavior is blamed being a mammal with raging hormones, and instincts, you know you are dealing with someone who is too weak minded to be more than mildly civilized.
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Ref 165
I consider it a compliment.
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ref #166
The liberal democrats of CT did not reflect the people of CT. Unlike partsian politicians Libermann believes he represetned the entire state
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169. Magic.
That is naive of you. His voting base was democratic and he was a democrat, not a republican. He was supposed to represent the people who elected him. It was a breach of faith.
Perhaps Lieberman is rationalizing his position. If so, he is fooling you, but not the Connecticut democratics. They voted against him. In any case what he did no longer matters. In January he will get his just rewards.
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Out out damned spot.
Yet who would have thought the old man to
have had so much blood in him?
What, will these hands ne'er be clean?
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169. Magic. Addendum.
You said that the liberal democrats of Connecticut did not reflect the people of Connecticut.
You obviously do not know Connecticut. It is traditionally a liberal democratic state. Lieberman is lying to you. Worse than that, he is lying to himself. I wonder what his god thinks of that.
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144, Jack.
I think it is the man who genuinely likes women that appeals to a woman. It doesn't matter if he is a smith, or an engineer, or anything else. But, additionally, that man has to have the gumption to pursue the woman he wants
It is in the nature of women to be somewhat passive when it comes to men. If you go against your nature and pursue the man, it is not much fun when you catch him. It is a role reversal. You have captured a passive man. What woman wants a passive man?
I have a brother who fell in love with a beautiful and intellegent girl who would not look at him. It didn't stop him. He did the most outrageous things to win her. One night he went to sleep on her doorstep with a bouquet of flowers in his arms. Opening the door the next morning she tripped on him. He was hard to ignore. (Also he was funny.) They have four children.
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#138 - re: "beautiful" women plus "powerful"/rich men - So, does that mean somewhere there's a video of Cindy in a leather thong and pasties, rubbing herself with a banana, and joining in the "beauty pageant" at Sturgis like the Harley-babe wannabe she was pretending to be, at the behest of McCain? Where's THAT YouTube vid?!!
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174, Grrrlie.
Guess not. Because Cindy never did compete for Miss Buffalo Chip contest. I'm sorry about that.
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ref #169
Then how did Lieberman win the general election which reflect the entire state?
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darwin's a heretic :)
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173 lol a lovely story.
Just for the record and to much annoyance of MA who thinks I am held captive by my pet, I do have another love of my life.
One of the reasons I do stay here in the US.
I am a taken man .
and happy for it.
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just an observation .if it is an attack then maybe you recognise the truth in it.
just for once accept that israel has no right to pretend to be hollier than thou.
We alla ccept Britain has a terrible,and sometimes great past.
same with all european nations.
But you have never once admitted that the palistinians are victims as the jews were before them.
NOT ONCE.
so I stand by my comments
majerkin
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166 I fully agree with every sentance as I understand them, but I ask were you making the point earlier that lieberman was not of devided loyalties or was I takeing you too literally and forgetting your sense of humour.
(now I think I may have taken you too literally)
thanks
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Webb is supposed to be cobering America:
This US story HAS to receive coverage! It is so outrageous that the whole World needs to have the details as they are developed now, and in court.
"It seems extraordinary to imagine that four U.S. agents who'd gone to pick her up — two military, two FBI — along with at least two Afghan translators, were somehow surprised by this woman, who overpowered them, grabbed a gun, flipped the safety, fired off a couple of shots, and then could only be subdued by shots to the torso," said [Zarifi
There is MUCH, MUCH, MORE. Somebody need to cover it in the USA for a long time!
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0814/p99s01-duts.html
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176, Magic.
Democratic turnout was low, probably because the democratic candidate was weak. Although some democrats voted for Lieberman, it was the republicans that voted heavily.
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#181
Is the corruption within the United States so great that the citizens prefer to worry about the electoral corruption of politicians, rather than the torture organized by their government and the failure to report it (unless pictures are published on YOU TUBE?)
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178, Jack.
I am so glad there is a happily married man out there in this world of broken marriages.
My brother's story is not so different from my own. I did everything I could to discourage my husband. Then somewhere along the line I realized I had found a mensch.
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I don't remember if I made the right reference, Jack. It should be #178.
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In reply to #183, Xie_Ming:
"Is the corruption within the United States so great that the citizens prefer to worry about the electoral corruption of politicians, rather than the torture organized by their government and the failure to report it (unless pictures are published on YOU TUBE?) "
As Lord Acton wrote, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The bigger and more power we cede to our governments, the less freedom and security we will have from it's abuses. That is true in America, Britain, China, etc. and at some point even the checks on abuse of power become meaningless.
You also seem to be a person who believes everything (negative) you hear or read, and then attempt to exploit that here on this blog (and many others) to great propaganda benefit.
To me, the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui is suspicious, and I'm sure that a complete investigation will be made. Until I can hear all the facts from an investigation, I will reserve judgment. But I share your concern that the US government has abused this person and her rights.
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183, 186, Xie and Real.
American torture used to be more subtle. Harry Dexter White, caught up in the McCarthy purge, died of a heart attack after extended sleep deprivation.
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#186
At this point, I do not know the facts.
There are terrible inconsistencies in the
story:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0814/p99s01-duts.html
and it NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED.
______________________
As to your ad hominemism:
"You also seem to be a person who believes everything (negative) you hear or read, and then attempt to exploit that here on this blog (and many others) to great propaganda benefit. "
Let me respond:
The post calls for an investigation of the facts. It does not take sides.
The lack of interest seems to me to suggest
corruption on the the US people on this Forum- they are blase to something that seems to me to demand investigation.
As to YOUR comment:
Is the general ad-hominem smear characteristic of your subculture?
Would you be capable of bring forth some specifics?
How is the US press reporting this court hearing?
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#186
My Lai, Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, and the various Attorney General's of the Bush/Cheny administration do not give me any confidence that a full investigation will be made- or allowed.
The foreign press must pick up on the matter- note that Agence France Press was apparently the impetus to the Christian Science Monitor article.
There are human rights organizations in the United States, I would hope that they may become amici curiae.
When a government is corrupt, it is mainly such organizations that bring the matter to public attention. For example, it is such organizations in Israel that record the terrible victimization of the Palestinians-the US media do not.
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Xie_Ming
#186
"At this point, I do not know the facts."
That's what I like, unbroken consistancy.
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In reply to #187,188, Xie_Ming;
As for ad hominem, I don't think so. The evidence of your not so subtle distraction with anti US and anti Israeli rhetoric in this blog. Re-read your last 100 postings and judge for yourself;
"Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist."
I've only been posting here a short time, but in that time amongst the other notable characters, you stand out as a person who tends to frequently post off topic towards things related to anecdotal allegations against particular nations, and their leaders.
It may only be that the tenacity of your tone and the frequency of your posting leads me to this conclusion, or it may just be that your bias is clearly showing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#191
This statement is not responsive to the facts but to the person:
"You also seem to be a person who believes everything (negative) you hear or read, and then attempt to exploit that here on this blog (and many others) to great propaganda benefit. "
That what makes it ad-hominem.
To reply in kind would lower the individual who did so, and would be to act as in certain Mid-Eastern street markets.
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192, Marcus.
Don't be jealous. I am sorry nobody wants you, Marcus. I think if you crawled out of your wine cellar, took the oath, and visited a good analyst your life would turn around. Wouldn't it be satisfying not to have to sit your dark hole, all by yourself?
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191, Real.
What you call bias I might call point of view, or even philosophy.
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#191
Anyone having any evidence of "anecdotal allegations" should cite them.
If such "annectdotal allegations" exist, perhaps they can be documented.
Of course, if they cannot be shown, then we will have another example of an individual indulging in a personal smear, rather than presenting facts,
i.e. ad-hominemism.
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196, Xie.
Xie, we are not writing theses; we are sharing information. If some of it is outlandish it will be spotted.
And what is your opinion on personal experience? I have told a few stories about events that I was personally involved in. Should those be excluded?
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In reply to #196 , Xie_Ming:
An "anecdotal allegation" would be the Christian Science magazine article, which you admit "At this point, I do not know the facts and "There are terrible inconsistencies in the
story", and yet you have announced in at least three topics. "Monochrome Thinking" is the only one where it would relate obliquely, but it's not about illegal aliens.
You lash back with a mishmash of "attrocities" like "My Lai, Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, ..." as if they were policy. As if they were not investigated thoroughly. As if the perpetrators of crimes were not tried, convicted, and imprisoned. As if the US were the only perpetrators of these types of crimes.
So, again, I would ask if you, because Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's detention is pretty far removed from the topic of "Political Wives".
What is your purpose for raising the issue of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui here?
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It should also be noted that Liam Stack, a student in Cairo, and the author of that CSM piece is also a contributing writer to Al Jazeera, and Daily News Egypt.
Not that it implies his views are biased, but they add a dimension to understanding the source of the unsubstantiated attack on the US, yet again.
I also read Al Jazeera and Pravda to give me a perspective on how events are viewed from other nations points of view.
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200, Real.
Torture is American policy. Our brave leader GW Bush has approved it.
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In reply to #202 , allmymarbles :
Odd then that HRW recently condemned the US for releasing 6 Guantanamo prisoners into Russian custody. Why? Because they would be tortured and perhaps killed. Same with Chinese detainees captured in Afghanistan and Pakistan, released into China's custody.
Torture in the US is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 2340. It is prohibited in the Army Field manual sections on interrogations. If it is being done by the US, then it is criminal and needs to be prosecuted. My understanding is that the CIA dances on the line by hiring it out to other countries who have less scruples.
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Marbles
FrigidNot odd at all. The US both condemns and uses torture, and is quite happy to release folk into potential torture, or to place them in situations in which surrogates might torture them. This is usually only resorted to following the failure of prolonged "in house" efforts and denial of their rights under habeus corpus. How much "scruples does that demonstrate?
How's that for "anecdotal"?
Salaam, etc.
ed
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As must be obvious to the sincere:
Referring to a news item in the Christian Science Monitor is NOT making "anecdotal allegations".
It is documenting a report.
Further, to call for an investigation of a story is not to make "allegations".
Thus, the claim of making "annecdotal allegations" is without support and a further evidence of the tactic of personal smear, i.e. ad hominemism.
__________________________
Further, many of the posts having nothing to do with "Political Wives" but relate to REPORTING AMERICA, which is the way this Forum works.
______________________________
The inconsistencies and implications of this CSM item scream out for investigation:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0814/p99s01-duts.html
The coverups of My Lai, Abu Gharib, the ongoing shame Guantanamo and now the Bagram situation demonstrate the desperate need to investigate and publish.
If America has not succombed to amoral legalism of the NeoCons, then let us see what the US media has had to say about this case!
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Xie_Ming
The riddles are three, but death is one.
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marcus you who's parents paid for you to go to collage twice even after you failed in france. you who have shown no proof of you ability to do any thing right want Us to believe that you somehow earned you money you are mad.
you want to say I get a free ride.
with what evidence do you say this.
I have earned my money. not so you.
I can show the products I make.
I can demonstrate my abillity to fabricate, a job I get paid for.
Because I do not live in a mansion with a wine cellar does not make me unemployable or unable to earn my living.
For once show you have something to offer.
or should I start writing letters about little want to be emperors and how daddy though him a spoilt brat?
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#199
Saying "I think that" is vastly different from saying "it is".
Saying "my experience is" is always good.
___________________
Saying "you are always a middle-wing commie" is ad hominem and out of place
____________________
For some examples of a more acute presentaion, check "JadedJean" on the the NewsNight webteam blog.
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jf, are you sure you're not a woman. You're awfully funny when you're mad.
Actually I paid for college on a student loan and I paid for France with money I'd saved up working after I graduated from Engineering school.
I don't really care to see your hammered out frogs or horse shoes or whatever it is you make. If there are people out there willing to pay money for that good for you.
You really just don't get it. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone. I'm just happy to be me. Why not try to be happy with yourself...if you can figure out what you are. British, American, British, American, British, American....round and round the wheel she goes and where she stops nobody knows. You can take the furrier out of Britain but you can't take Britain out of the furrier. Hey jf, why not become an Israeli, you could got to the sNAcKBAr....nah, on second thought they'd never have you.
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I would suggest Mainly erronious that most people would find your attempts to deem your self a success quite funny.
given the evidence.
And in time for the weekend as predictable as ever you want to get nasty.
OOOOhhh
How did an unemployable engineer finance a collage tuition in France.
I would suggest, he didn't. Mummy and Daddy paid for their little"didums" to go to collage but being delusional he warped this ,in his own head to,
"I had to go to France and see the Joys of life.
When they decided best to "let me Go" and I was sent home.my life was destroyed. All that joy to be left behind I never recovered.
the heart break and mistrust of the world was never repaired and so now years later I scan the internet looking for chances to deride France(those happiness stealing "surrender monkeys") the french and anyone near them.
Those parents really made me pay.
They shelled out a little Cash(which is now no object, now I have inherited their wealth).
But I shelled out a life"
Happy weekend
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btw we have another thing in common , they would not have you either.
How lucky for us both.
I do not have to fight a war I do not believe in.
And you do not have to fight a war you have no courage to fight.
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In reply to #204, Ed Iglehart:
Hardly anecdotal at all Ed. Check out the relationship of the CIA with Jordan's Intelligence Service.
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In reply to #205, Xie_Ming:
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- William Shakespeare
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214 you don't get it do you?
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212 close isn't it.
but then for a short while syria talked to the cia (hunt for Bin loaded), iran even ,till we said "we don't need you na na na na na naaa."
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I lived in new york for 6 months.
How would you know how welcome you would be in europe, you have not been for many years.
I would suggest a Canadian patch if you want to get home.
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jf, anyone is welcome in Europe if they have money and there is a possibility they will spend a sheckle or two. Economic prospects especially now are bleak. Only America will welcome someone so destitute and unskilled all they can do is pick produce or bang frogs out of metal.
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219
so we are just like america despite your rants otherwise.
as for unskilled. I may be .
Fruit pickers may be. but you certainly are.
unskilled in all that you have attempted to show us your superiority in.
Except maybe one hand typing
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btw they trade in Euro's these days, sheckles are not very popular as a form of currancy.
just to update you
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jf, the British will take money in any currency that is convertable into something they can use to buy alcohol.
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222so your better because you waste you time driving to get your booze..
hell if people pay me in what I plan to buy I give them a deal for saving me time later.
So we are smarter.
plop
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jf, anyone is welcome in Europe if they have money and there is a possibility they will spend a sheckle or two. Economic prospects especially now are bleak. Only America will welcome someone so destitute and unskilled all they can do is pick produce or bang frogs out of metal."
Yes we will have the people with the money, that seems to you like a bad policy?
Prospects for WASPS in the US are very bleak indeed. But it is not to be mourned, by location alone the US always should have been a slightly bigger version of Mexico.
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