Openness and staying power
Interested in why the United States of America has been so successful a nation? The Olympics provide a clear answer for those who care to ponder the surnames of the members of the US team. It is not just the Sudanese man who led them out in Beijing as this piece from the run-up to the games pointed out, there are well over 20 team members who have been welcomed from abroad.
They come for a variety of reasons but the welcome they get is what interests me. It's the welcome of a flexible dynamic society that has no time for peevish nationalism, but has a warm inclusive welcome for those who have something to offer - in sport, historically of course in commerce as well and in academic life and every other area of human endeavour.
This is why America can afford to view the Chinese triumph at these Olympics (and it is certainly seen here as a triumph so far) with some degree of relaxation: it is the triumph of organisation and determination and vision and all sorts of other hugely important qualities in a nation aiming to better itself - and to better the world - but it lacks that magical openness that America has. Economically - culturally - the US will be challenged by China in the years ahead but in the marathon of human progress the US has the real stamina, the staying power, and that power comes from its attitude to the talents of the rest of the world: not bring it on, but bring them in.
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Here in the US we call it "The American Dream".
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And I would add that it is a credit to the country that the trend with these athletes is not one of "Olympians for hire" who immigrate as athletic mercenaries (which is common amongst teams with high foreign-born numbers), but simply people who came to the country to pursue and better life and found it in athletics.
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They come for a variety of reasons but the welcome they get is what interests me. It's the welcome of a flexible dynamic society that has no time for peevish nationalism, but has a warm inclusive welcome for those who have something to offer - in sport, historically of course in commerce as well and in academic life and every other area of human endeavour.
No rather than import them as zola bud was they just ravish their country to the ground in cold war and ex cold war struggles and when the refugees turn up they say cool we got some more athletes.
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wow justin what do they have on you?
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So why aren't there more Mexicans in the squad?
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"Why has the USA been so successful a nation?", you ask. It's because "it has a warm inclusive welcome for those who have something to offer", you say. Does that include Mexican immigrants? Don't think so...
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It's called the "talent drain", akin to the "brain drain", when seen from abroad., and you're right. It applies to every field of human endeavour.
There was an uplifting film last night on BBC2 about John Akii Bua, and I'd recommend it to anyone (but the BBC iPlayer says it ain't available ;-(.... He was loyal to his country DESPITE Idi Amin.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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In the US, sport is one of the ways in which people escape from a life of hardship; which is not to say that all sports people come from that background, only that sport serves as a vehicle for social and economic mobility. Hence excellence is valued not for its political but its social ends.
On another note, I've just had an Obama camp email that the VP announcement is imminent with a request to 'sign up to be the first to hear (and pass this to ten of your friends)'. It's a clear move to increase the network of potential contributors, and I guess means that there will be an announcement this week.
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You'd better watch it Mr. Webb. If this personal America envy keeps up BBC might fire you for defecting from its corporate culture. But you'll have to do a lot more reading than you have to unerstand what America is really about. You are still hunting for superficial answers when the real causes lie much deeper. If you want to find out, start reading American history. It starts with a boatload of outcasts landing in a far away strange and dangerous land 400 years ago, surviving in great adversity and hardship, living among barbaric tribes, and going through one trial by fire after another.
Yes we take in anyone and everyone from all over the world. Our only complaint is that we want them at a rate at which they can be absorbed without overwhelming our society's ability to assimilate them since many come with little or nothing but the shirts on their backs and will need help until they get into the swing of it and can begin to manage on their own.
That means anyone including someone whose only talent in life may be that he can take a piece of metal and hammer it into something that's vaguely reminiscent of a frog. We've even got a place for him.
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What you missed
;-)
ed
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Mark,
Right on the first point, but I'll bet against any announcement before the end of the Olympics. Why should he hurry?I can't wait to cover my bets against HRC!
;-)
ed
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I know this is just a blog, but you probably need to justify your position more strongly Justin. At the moment it just reads like a love letter to Uncle Sam. I don't disagree with you, but I'd be more interested to hear why you think this way. Which personal experiences have led you to believe this?
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"It's the welcome of a flexible dynamic society that has no time for peevish nationalism"
Err, in your time in the US, have you ever actually talked to any Americans? Ever heard of Anheuser-Busch?
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Justin;
Your praise of America often seems to me to be naively one sided. For example, I have now heard several commnetators discussing that the reason America does not have the same Islamic fundamentalism as the UK is that the immigrants to US tended to be the more educated. Contrast with the story of the Hmong from Laos and you will see that America is very welcomong of the brightest and talented and well off, and not so welcoming of the less educated and poor. I agree that America is a marvelous place in many ways, but not so marvelous, indeed far from it, for its poor.
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Ed, I thought he was waiting until the night (he isn't going to overshadow the speeches of his wife on Monday or Hillary on Tuesday), but it does surprise me that I got the email this early as like you I had assumed it would be a post-Olympic announcement. The email implies it is imminent, but ... maybe he is just building tension ...
If he does announce on the night, then I want to know why Bill is the speaker immediately before the VP speech ... there is something going on that the Press is missing.
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Our society is mostly a nation of immigrants, and it is precisely that diversity that makes us strong. Immigration occurs for many reasons, but more often than not it is driven by economic reasons, religious matters, political persecution, and the natural desire to seek a better life that are not available in our ancestral homeland. My Dad was born in Spain, and entered the USA via Ellis Island in 1920; a fact of great pride to me.
While it is true that specific ethnic groups have been subjected to discrimination at various times in our history for various reasons, the overwhelming majority of immigrants settled, prospered, had children and died in this country. While most remain proud of their roots, we all consider ourselves Americans first.
Obviously, there is no such a thing as a perfect society, and we are not an exception. The current situation affecting illegal immigrants is caused by inadequate immigration laws that ignore the demand for unskilled workers in fields such as agriculture. The most unfortunate consequences of this flaw in our laws are xenophobia and stereotyping. An acquaintance of mine, of Mexican ancestry, was stopped by the police and had to produce documentation to prove his status. This man was born in Texas, where his parents, grandparents and great grandparents were also born. I must add, however, that when this incident occurred he was talking to illegal immigrants, with similar physionomy, in the parking lot of a convenience store. Sadly, the raids that often take place in cities throughout our country often affect "Hispanics" born in the USA, naturilized citizens, and legal immigrants as well.
I have no problem with legal residents and naturalized citizens representing the USA in the Olympics, but I feel very uncomfortable when we expedite visas and the citizenship process for the specific purpose of acquiring talented foreign atheletes to compete on our behalf. A sport where this has taken place on several occasions is soccer (football). That circumstance takes a back seat to the embarrassment I feel when I see multi-millionaire professional NBA players competing in the Olympics against teams of mostly amateur players, a fact that in my opinion detracts from the spirit of the games.
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Ridicucous comment again Justin I'm afraid. One day you will discover Australia and find its lifestyle and sports achievements (per size) outweigh anything the US has achieved.
And it has done this without civil war, conquering other nations or interfering with its neighbours.
Like many Americanophiles you seem to have this mysterious belief that the US is the only immigrant country.
As for welcoming foreign sportsmen and pretending they are your own, isn't that rather corrupt? Remember the Zola Budd controversy?
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Dominick,
Exactly, and the same objection (with perhaps more moral repugnance) goes for "cherry-picking" skilled, qualified, and educated folk from countries which need them more than we do, e.g. doctors, nurses, etc., simply because we can pay them more.I deeply respect those who resist the siren call of Big Money and return to the communities which gave them birth (and often sponsored their 'foreign' education/training). And I am a great admirer of Medicine Sans Frontiers and other like-minded folk.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#5: You might be surprised. Mexican and American DNA has been mixing in the southern quarter of the U.S. for about four centuries now.
That said, racism is a universal human curse and it certainly afflicts too many of us here. Most of us -- like most Europeans -- do our best to recognize racism in ourselves and alter our behavior accordingly. A minority, though, link race, culture, religion and nationalism to brew a nasty kind of politics. There's a history of that here, as there is in most societies. Eventually, they will lose.
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Justin,
You make a very valid point. The strength of the US has traditionally been it's ability to attract talent from outside. Our weakness has been a reliance on this while retaining an educational system that is more patriarchal, allowing those with legacies and money to attend the top universities rather than those with talent. This has been the case for many years, and it is a shame because students get a far less diverse experience when cloistered with families from similar wealthy backgrounds than at a more diverse institution like Oxford or Cambridge. The result is fewer home grown top talent individuals than we could produce. As a result we do have to bring more folks in to keep the economy growing and the H1B quota today is sadly insufficient, with all spots taken within a week or two.
The only sad part of this whole debate is the visceral reaction to immigration that some have taken. The US economy generally outperforms any other in the world. Unemployment is relatively low. Productivity per hour is unfortunately relatively low as well. These factors demand a large number of unskilled and semi skilled people and the only way to cover that is through immigration.
Open the borders, let the market decide.
Sam
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#18 Ed
I trust that you are using "we" to include both your Scots and American identities. Scotland doesn't have a very good record in this area either.Complain about this comment
Ref 18
I agree with your opinion about the detrimental effect posed by the emigration of talented individuals from countries where their services are desperately needed, but attracting talent is not a policy exclusive to the USA. Many developed nations do the same. That may not excuse the effect of our policy of attracting foreign talent, but it is a fact of life that only changes when the host nation is in decline; something that I doubt will happen in the USA any time soon.
Personally, I am delighted to receive the services and care provided by a very competent Indian doctor and a Middle Eastern specialist. I deal with the realization that, perhaps, they should have remained in their countries caring for their fellow citizens by taking into consideration the difficulties that many professionals experience in their ancestral homelands, and the right of every human being to pursue their dreams in countries where they are welcomed. I also consider the focus on higher education that exist in countries such as India, where many professionals do remain and contribute to the welfare of their society.
I am far from being wealthy, but I don't envy or denigrate the desire of any person to acquire a fortune, if that is what is important to them.
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Oldnat,
Too right! Although Scotland has also exported considerable talent, as can be noted in the names on almost every major multinational's Board of Directors...I'm told that, in Cuba, when talented young folk are provided with advanced education, including the concomitant urban experience (bright lights, etc.), they remain aware (indoctrinated) that this opportunity is provided by "the community", in order to add to their value to said community. Thus they happily return and serve. Possibly the best thing that ever happened to Cuba was/is the American embargo? They now have more doctors percapita than anyone, and a life expectancy among the highest....
;-)
ed
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ref #23
Ed you are deluded, Cuba is the worst totalitarian dictatorship in this hemisphere. If you deviate from Cuba's failed ideology you can not be part of society.
don't listen to idiots like Michael Moore, the sad part is that Venezuela and Bolivia are going down that same path.
The U.S should be respected for the great example it sets for the world, culturally in scientific breakthrough and human rights.
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I think Webb makes a good pitch.
There is really a contest now between "bring it on" and "bring them in".
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Sam,
This is only a short-term solution, like the related solution to an ageing demography by importing young folk (they will age just like the rest of us).There is also the fact that newly-arrived, lower-skilled folk add to overpopulation by out-breeding long-standing residents. There is a limit to how many people the Earth (or any subsection thereof) can support and we ignore the present rate of population growth at our peril.
There are plenty of estimates
that we are already well ahead of the Earth's carrying capacity, and there are 219,000 more of us today...
Peace
ed
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Ref 23
I had the opportunity in recent years to be in touch with two Cuban medical doctors via the Internet who share my passion for genealogy. One is currently on assignment in Venezuela, the other worked in Africa and in a Caribbean island for a few years. Both return periodically to Cuba and after a few months in their homeland they go back overseas to provide services in countries and communities where their services are needed. I avoid discussing politics with them, for obvious reasons, but I find the occasional comments they make about their work and experiences very interesting and often contradictory to what I learn from our media.
Obviously, many Cuban doctors and other professionals have migrated and live in the USA and in other countries where many of them are an integral part of their adopted societies and some have become prominent citizens.
Insofar as the embargo is concerned, I am convinced that it has helped Castro more than it has helped us; especially because the embargo is ignored by many of our allies who take advantage of our short sighted policy to invest and become influential in countries we ostracize. Foreign threats and demands often rally the masses in support of leaders that they despise and would be likely replace.
Having said that, it seems obvious that a significant segment of the Cuban population, particularly the impoverished masses, support Castro and his policies. The same is true in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc.
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Hi Ed,
I think the population debate is seperate. Whatever the carrying capacity is doesn't relate to where those folks live (although food miles could, I guess, have an impact on the capacity).
Breeding rates are related to a broad range of factors, not least the availability of contraception, female education and local cultural norms. By bringing high breeding populations into the west we've seen birth rates among those immigrant populations fall within a generation or two.
This debate over migration rattled around the EU for a while, both when barriers to work were removed and when the new entrants joined. The UK was going to be overwhelmed by eastern europeans and mediterranean types after social benefits and healthcare. Didn't happen.
While some folks did move to find work they created a sense of dynamism that both helped encourage 'native' folks to try harder. Plus they put more tax dollars into the governments pockets. More to the point, those migrant workers have started to return home now as their native economies have begun to catch up.
The pain comes if people move illegallly, work in the black market and hide their activities from the authorities. Make labor a perfect market, and let the market decide where the labor should go.
Cheers,
Sam
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Well Justin, I think you finally got it.
However, "The American Melting Pot" would be nothing but a hodge podge of race mixing if it were not for the U.S. Constitution.
The US Constitution does not grant civil liberties: but rather recognizes those liberties are given by God and merely protected by the government; and that said government is very limited. The founding fathers were quite suspicous of all governments and Americans today still have that healthy suspicion. Trusting to the abilities, ambition, inovation and integrity of the individual rather than the buraucracies of state.
As someone whose forefathers wer Irish, French, Bavarian, Alsacian, Hungarian, Italian, African and American Indian (Shawnee)....who has married a woman whose ancestors were Russian and Polish -- I commend you on your observation.
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He is also supporting terrorism against Columbia and the U.S
again opposition to the states dictating who runs them makes them terrorists.
even the lady captured by the farc said talks are needed
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14 mr prescott very well put.
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To 23 ED
Yes things are so great in Cuba that thousands of Americans risk their lives and the lives of their children every year and take to the shark-filled waters between Cuba and Florida on tiny craft cobbled together from inner tubes and other bits of flotsam in the hopes of landing in Cuba and availing themselves of all the opportunities and liberties there.
Things are so great in Cuba that people are literally "dying" trying to get there...right?
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but I feel very uncomfortable when we expedite visas and the citizenship process for the specific purpose of acquiring talented foreign atheletes to compete on our behalf.
dominick, and they got all upset when brits did that for zola bud
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Sam,
As their percapita ecological footprint rises fourfold, their rate of breeding moves towards simple replacement, but you can work out what that means in terms of carrying capacity, even if we were to achieve a zero growth rate...As to the British fears of inundation, they do seem to be abating as The Economy collapses....Britain is 60% self-sufficient in food production (as NuLabour proudly boast), despite sitting on some of the finest agricultural soil. In slightly more than a dozen years, we have fallen from 72%. At such levels, it would seem not-too-clever to encourage further population growth (by any means) The influx of migrants has also helped drive the insane escalation in house prices, the 'unwinding' of which, however necessary, will be painful to many.
England is the fourth most densely populated major country on Earth (after Bangladesh, South Korea and the Netherlands), and is certainly less self-sufficient than the UK taken as a whole.
I'm pleased to live in one of the darkest areas shown at the end of this clip, well away from the "eight million street lights"....
Happy Monday
ed
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Note he stole the last two elections (Jimmy Carter is not a relliable arbiter)
what and you are, ha ha ,thanks for the laugh
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31. At 3:57pm on 11 Aug 2008, jacksforge wrote:
oh I know. because you are a self opinionated idiot with no sense of history despite continued attempts to show yuor knowlege you fail and only show you are not so good at reading
-------
so are you the pot or the kettle?
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To #14 AAPrescott:
You are sorely mistaken if you think America only allows Muslim doctors and engineers into her fold.
Ride a Taxi in any major US city or go into any neighborhood convenience or liquor store and you will see how wrong you really are.
What America offers that the UK and the rest of Europe do not is full inclusion. Any legal immigrant in a few years can become a US citizen. Children born in the US are automatically US citizens.
In the US, even among the poor, the only limitation is one's talent, ambition and endurance. AMerica has more immigrant millionaires -- immigrants who became millionaires -- than any other country in the world no matter how one measures it.
And as for America's military successes -- kindly name one other nation in history who has conquered so many other countries only to almost immediately give those countries back to its people?
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Well Ed,
This is one of the few times I disagree with you. Malthus was wrong. And dreadful at parties.
Sam
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Justin makes a point I have made in an earlier thread, that the United States is inclusive. We (most of us) put our country ahead of our group (racial, ethnic, religious, whatever), because the country respects and protects diversity. Quite different in many parts of the world, such as in Georgia and the Caucasus region generally, as we have been reminded lately.
Still, his confidence seems too optimistic to me. My view is that, while we are still clearly a land of opportunity to many, the "American Dream" isn't what it used to be. Europe has been getting stronger economically compared to the US, and China has come from nowhere in a few decades to become a significant economic power. Practically everything is made in China now. They are the second-largest user of the Panama Canal.
The United States is only 230+ years old. Who knows what the world will look like in 50 to 150 years? It's conceivable to me that the world will become dominated by China and Europe, and the US will fall to a secondary status. Didn't the Roman Empire once dominate western Europe and the Mediterranean? Where are they now?
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Parrisia (#6) is wrong when he asserts that Mexican immigrants are not welcome in the US. They are as welcome as any other immigrant group. It is the illegal aliens that are not welcome, not the immigrants.
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MikeIL,
Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune
Nicholas Ling
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument
William G. McAdoo
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ref #42 and 38
Jacky Boy did you forget the computer discs the Columbians found with contact and money connection between Hugo and the Columbia terrorists.
You are right neither Jimmy the terrorist appeaser Carter or I are qualified observors.
However other more relliable ones did say Dictator Hugo had unfair election process.
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justin.
what do you know arriving on your visa paid for by the bbc and you green card.
is that ?it you're angling for a greenie?
luck for me blacksmith is one of those jobs that can get a green card.
even luckier that I have a US passport.
but still I had a welding boss that would not employ me on the books because he though i must be illegal.
even with the passport
try getting dressed up as an ethnic minority and go look for a job justin.
there was a post on the bbc not long ago about how all the muslims nearly got killed off after 9/11.
and there is constant abuse of their culture once they arrive.
so get your baseball cap on and get to the ball game, and stop trying to get a green card for after the bbc sends you else where.
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no i just disagree about who the terrorists are
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diference pete is I can read and comprehend what I read.
I am opinionated but have opinions based on reallity.
but i'll be the pot.
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Mike Il (#40)
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Mike (#40),
Which countries? I can't think of any the US has conquered and immediately given back. Phillipines? No. Mexico, nope, kept a chunk of it. Where? Puerto Rico, nope. Panama? Nope kept that for a while.
Sam
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Sam,
If Malthus was wrong, so is the First Law of Thermodynamics.
;-)#
ed
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Uh-oh, Justin!
You better get ready for a bunch of annoying, bitter, pathologically USA-obsessed losers flaming you for *daring* to say anything positive about the US!
You're not allowed to do that!
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Ride a Taxi in any major US city or go into any neighborhood convenience or liquor store and you will see how wrong you really are.
if you talked to them you might find they are doctors or engineers but with out the "american qualifications "
they cannot practice.
so they drive a cab.
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#40 MikeIL
You do have a terrible tendency to generalise on the basis of your ignorance. The UK also allows people to become citizens through Naturalisation or on the basis of Birth
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soory sam the bbc has seen fit to allow marcus to slag off my abillities but not me to defend against those attacks.
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I know a german wife of a US soldier who got turned down for a teaching position. to teach german because the university could not understand that her qualifications were in german.
she speaks and writes excelent english.
unlike me
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@ mikeIL post 40; your ignorance is surprassed by your capacity for self-delusion.
1) In ALL EU nations, citizenship is granted to all those whove been here after (it varies by nation) 7-10 years, with permanent residency as the misddle step; roughly the same as the US system.
2) If you are poor - as 30% of the US population are, chronically so - there are NOT the opportunities for the more fortunate amongst us - same as everywhere else. It is ridiculous myth-making to pretend otherwise, there are simply to many handcaps of disadvantage in healthcare, housing, contacts, education etc
If you're saying the US DOESN'T hjave a class system, how come Paris Hilton's life will always be significantly sweeter than the kiids in the Detroit projects.
erm....heard of a place called Iraq?
3)
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jacksforge...
What is your point? I have dozens of friends, neighbors and co-workers from all over the world who have come to the US and made a good life for themselves. Of course it's not a magical fairy tale land where you just have to get off the plane and all your dreams come true. Nobody ever said it was. Success in the US is hard work, and it also takes some luck. Not everybody makes it.
Desperately picking through everything and trying to pretend the most negative aspects and experiences are the only reality isn't an insightful or informed perception of the US.
You are always on here, though, so I think you are a bit obsessed with us, which really says everything.
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Is this working?
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The need and benifit for immigration into the US has been known and welcomed since the inception of th States. Here, a President states it well'
James Madison (1751-1836), U.S. president. Speech at Federal Convention, August 13, 1787.
And as to my Hispanic/Mexican friends, I don't see how anyone can say they aren't included in th US. They are our culture in the South West. As to, I got to say this for the uninformed, the Illegal Mexican criminals are just that, not immigrants.
Big difference, apathy for thier situation is had for/by all, but makes no less the imposition on put on us legal immigrants, whether from Austria or Mexico.
China, kudos for a job well done. I hear my radio hosts and TV commentators complain of the Human rights issues, protestors and all, but to see the teams and performers, the construction and improvement, wow, the China I see from Texas, rocks!!
reform for posterity through history
peace () namsaste
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Ed, FYI, here in Texas we have an opening for a farrier. Free meals and a bed over the stable. Think Jack might be interested?
OMG, paying work!
yikes
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shawn b I am american and live here so of course I have an interest.
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sorry doug if I were to move to texas I am sure I could earn more as a welder, and like I said before . the only horse shoeing I do is "get odda here"
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sahawn my point is he is a little too over zealous, and as for negativity, that is something americans are good at these days.
no we can't do that.
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Doug,
But not necessarily in that order...the fourth President of the United States (1809-1817).;-)
ed
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To all those claiming the US has a system that keeps people poor and immigrants in their place...
I guess I need to tell the hundreds of immigrants in my church they are ot allowed to own their many pieces of real estate, need to get rid of their Mercedes', and must divest themselves from their many investments. Their children too must be pulled out of their top-flight universities.
I suppose Arnold Schwarzenggar should resign his office and ineed Barrack Obama should probably give up his senate seat and drop out of the race afterall he is only the son of a lowly African Immigrant.
Someone too, I suspect should let the Africans and Turks in France and Germany know they have full citizenship rights. Amybe then the Paris Suburbs won't catch fire so often.
And as for the person questioning the US' return of conquered nations to their people. Here is a list you did no consider:
Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Panama, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico. If the US had maintained possession of the territory of every enemy it has conquered, its empire would be larger than any yet seen.
Go ahead and knock the US all you want, but continuing in this vain requires one to ignore some basic facts...and frankly Americans have never cared much what other countries think of us. If we did, we would be called Canada and would have waited until some Monarch or foreign parliamet "allowed" us our freedom.
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shawn america has endless posibilities but it throws them away in order to not progress.
as one american has told me today"most people just don't get it.
I'd agree and include the comment where ever they are from.
I had friends co workers and neigbours in the UK that came from all over.
and many that were locals(from other backgrounds).
when people go on about shria law in the UK that is just an extension of the fact that they feel comfortable enough to say something.
now with 8 years of world anti semitism they may feel more defensive,though they SHould have no reason to.
just look at the number of languages a ub40 has to see how many countries at least get to read their rights in their own language.
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Gloves are off on the celebrity adverts...
Obama hits back on the celebrity front
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Simon:
"Ridicucous comment again Justin I'm afraid. One day you will discover Australia and find its lifestyle and sports achievements (per size) outweigh anything the US has achieved.
And it has done this without civil war, conquering other nations or interfering with its neighbours."
Let's hear it for Australian nationalism!
Anti-Americanism is at the core of it, but it doesn't have to be. Australia has enough to offer without ridicuing others.
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Thanks Candace! I love it!
xx
ed
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Ref 29
"The best exmples of Latin American progress are Chile and Columbia who have stood up to the Dictators Hugo and Fidel".
I prefer to form opinions based on personal observation, feedback from friends and relatives, and analysis of situations. I find the media extremely biased and prone to portray countries and cultures favorably or unfavorably dependent on their ideological leanings.
Fidel Castro was a dictator who seized power by force after defeating dictator Fulgencio Batista. Whether we like it or not, Hugo Chavez was elected and re-elected by a substantial majority in what were termed as free and democratic elections by all the foreign monitors present, among them President Carter. I have several friends and relatives in that country, where I spent 12 years, some like Chavez, others hate him.
Chile and their moderate socialist president, Michelle Bachelet should, indeed, serve as models for the rest of Latin America; but it is premature to include Colombia in that category.
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Mike L,
Hardly immediate.
Iraq - kept control under provisional authority, current level of control unclear
Afghanistan - Maybe, yet to be seen since much of the country territorially is under the control of the Taliban. We have successfully handed back Kabhul
Panama - 50 years
Haiti - Give you that one
Germany - That was the Allies
Italy - Ditto
Japan - Ditto
Mexico - Kept Texas and most of the South West. BTW, a war of naked territorial aggression.
So Haiti then. and Kabhul. Not much to be proud of, that.
Cheers,
Sam
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Europeans never knew that after 9-11, there was an intense reaction among many Americans against Moslems. It was all the government could do to suppress a real threat of mass murder of Moslems living in America by non Moslems. The Moslems were rightfully scared.
these are not my words but the words of one of
" a flexible dynamic society that has no time for peevish nationalism, but has a warm inclusive welcome for those who have something to offer"
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sam nw-arts.com is not a site where sales can be made so youshould be able to check the frogs out there.
have to go through the art gallery
or check on etsy for jacksforge.
I unlike others do not hide behind assumed identities of ancient history
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MikeIL #40: 'kindly name one other nation in history who has conquered so many other countries only to almost immediately give those countries back to its people'
The United Kingdom, from the 18th to early 20th centuries. By a country mile. Following conquest they would give the conquered nation back to the people, except with a different ruler. One who would let them make lots of money. Eerily familiar, no?
The term 'neo-colonialism' is a bit of a canard really. The 19th-century empires were also pretty keen on indirect means of getting what they want: orchestrated coups putting puppet rulers on thrones. Apologists for the US sometimes rely too hard on the idea that the Europeans always exercised direct rule over the colonies; because the US doesn't, the argument goes, then there cannot be said to be an 'American empire'.
This is tenuous.
Whatever, the fantasy that the US should be seen as a benevolent world policeman got blown to bits amid the idiocy of Falluja.
Any chance we could have more about foreign policy on this blog? Or will it stir up the nutters on both sides too much?
America is special because it is the country most involved in the affairs of the rest of the world. It is connected to events in places like, say, Georgia.
Isn't that a little more dynamic than an election that ceased to be interesting months ago? Between an empty suit and a geriatric who's going to lose?
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Obama made a magnamimous gesture-
he suggested that the votes from Florida, etc., have full weight.
The less-than magnanimous Clintons saw a chance to steal the Convention.
Power is a tough and deadly game- perhaps one cannot afford to have principles until elected.
What do we think of Roosevelt?
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While on the topic of cultural stamina, it should be pointed out that Chinese culture is millennia old, older than the whole West, and for many of those millennia China was the most developed nation (as opposed to state or country) in the region. In contrast, American culture is basically only about 400 years old.
That stated, American culture is arguably the most adaptable of the major cultures in the world (melting pot--or personal choice: tomato soup--and all that). The American nation is looking at Chinese and other cultures, from both its immigrants and foreigners in their home countries, and if there's something worth taking from those cultures, American culture will assimilate it. There's no perfect culture, but Americans are trying to get there.
On a light note, that cultural assimilation has sure helped American cuisine; just think, without adopting ingredients, techniques, and recipes from Amerindian and foreign peoples, the general American cuisine would be full of bland English dishes :-)' (And American cuisine is more than hamburgers and hot dogs--both from German immigrants, incidentally).
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Thanks, Mr. Webb, for that wonderful piece. It shows you do understand us much more thoroughly than we may have suspected.
Marcus (#9) follows up well to your words.
We are welcoming, because at one point in history or another, we have all been welcomed, or our ancestors have been welcomed. In the case of that stain upon our history, slavery, we have gone to extraordinary lengths to right the wrong toward those imported here in chains.
I think the culture here asks two basic questions of any new arrival: 'Have you come with the intent of becoming an American?', and 'How hard are you willing to work to create your new life here?'
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To #68Candace9863
I also loved your link!
To all:
Berkeley scientists have invented an invisibility cloak using nano technology. What fun!
I thought Harry Potter had already done that.
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jacksforge (#73) greatly exaggerates when he states that there was a "real threat of mass murder" of Moslems after the WTC incident. There were isolated incidents of violence directed at Moslems (and persons wrongly thought to be Moslem), but nothing that could remotely be categorized as such a threat. The United States, despite individual acts of intolerance, is a tolerant place.
There certainly was an "intense reaction," however, and therefore widespread support for attacking Afghanistan when it became clear that it was a haven for the perpetrators.
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#74Jacksforge
I want a dragonfly!
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#71
The American TV showed the opposition to Chavez, well-dressed middle class types displaying profesisonally-printed placards.
To me, it resembled, quite closely, the orchestrated "Orange" revolution in Georgia.
I suspect that CIA bureaucrats have to follow standard playbooks.
Castro has given the poor in Cuba housing and medical care they they otherwise would never have had.
Because of the American blocade, we may never be able to judge how effective economically his system could have been.
One way to let the truth shine through is for free media to show the "other side" on on all ideological issues.
That might help to make a better World.
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"Europeans never knew that after 9-11, there was an intense reaction among many Americans against Moslems. It was all the government could do to suppress a real threat of mass murder of Moslems living in America by non Moslems. The Moslems were rightfully scared. "
jack:
Really?
All that the government could do?
It's not only the Europeans who are unfamiliar with this.
I have never heard of it and have no idea what you are talking about.
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#79Oldsouth
Well said!
I am a child of immigrants. We children were raised to work hard and love our country. My father despised all governments. At best, he considered any government to be an interfering nuisance but he loved America for the opportunities it gave him and his family.
I think that anyone who has not attended a
US citizenship ceremony might consider doing so. It can be a very profound experience.
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Cuba is a totalitarian nation. In the US we cannot legally buy a Cuban cigar.
China is a totalitarian nation. Practically everything we buy nowadays, at least most everything cheap (including 100% of the children's toys which have been recalled for safety reasons), comes from China. China is hosting the summer Olympics.
What's the difference? The economic insignificance of Cuba.
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#83Xieming
When ever a people become separated from trade and interaction with the rest of the world, they either become creative, innovative, self-sufficient, and pro-active or they die.
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aqua I will make one specially for you.
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Here's a link to a list of the hate crimes directed against Muslims in the US after the WTC incident. There are about 50 listed for California, a large state of about 35 million people at the time.
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=278
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84 it is a quote from an american poster who should remain nameless.
I agree it is not as he suggests.
there were many ready to help protect those minorities that were being attacked.
but then how come it is so hard for the interpretor that helped my friend in Afganistan to get a visa.
'How hard are you willing to work to create your new life here?'
like a slave.
now some of you get me so wrong it is amazing.
as I have said before numerous times america can be all it says it is,
at the moment it just isn't.
change happens when people recognise what is wrong.
but in the marathon of human progress the US has the real stamina, the staying power,
the word THE before real suggests that other have no stamina or staying power ,which is funny when talking about a country younger than the Pub I went to after school.
it is eliteist as Justin is and it is what is so offensive to me.
If some one said the UK, Brits are the only nation with balls I would disagree.
I do not believe in this adulation of a nation. until that nation IS so great.
And by that I do not mean having killed the most foreigners or owned more land etc.
It is one reason Cuba is equal with the US.
same thing if you move there and agree with all said you will be fine.
that is how the states are. if you agree you will be fine.
what freedom
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86 good question.
none but america wants to rule cuba?
after all they are still communists.
and thinking different to america is wrong, right?
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that is, none.
but america wants to rule cuba.
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John Pilger once described Justin Webb's eulogies to the US as "treacle". I find it difficult to disagree.
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JF (#90), it's hard to parse your posts when you fail to quote and attribute quotations from elsewhere.
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93
i would agree with you both
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#86 Gary
On an Alaskan cruise last year, we had dinner at the same table as a Republican couple who were so extreme that they made MA2 seem a moderate. That he was boasting of the number of Cuban cigars that the guy bought in Vancouver suggested that hypocrisy is not just a sin on this side of the Atlantic.Complain about this comment
#90Jacksforge
You said:
"America can be all it says it is but at the moment it just isn't."
This is so true and so painful for us who love our country and want it to do so much better.
I think that all I can do, anyway, is my best to live up to the ideal by which I was raised. That is, to work hard, treat others with respect and to speak out as best I can for peace, tolerance and the understanding that we all share this planet and must learn to get along.
A lot of us try. We do try very hard!
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94 sorry but the quote was by mostly erronious. I believe. go and read all to find it again. I cannot sit through reading his trash for too long.
my computer cannot handle the drool from my mouth as I snore away.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#94Garyahill
Jacksforge is what he is, a passionate, out-spoken and often abrasive poster, as are many others here.
Reading posts is a lot like panning for gold. Most of the time there is just sand and gravel but occasionally there is a real gold nugget, well worth panning for.
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#99Jacksforge
My dad would probably have enjoyed talking to you but the only way that might happen now would be if you decided to terminate your earthly existence. He died in 1987. I still miss him and wonder what he would say about all that is going on right now.
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Jacksforge
Obama does give us hope for something better. I am old. I want to see the new generation come forward, see where mistakes have been made and work to change that for all of us.
What we have been doing isn't working. Maybe it is time to try new eyes, new ideas and a new hope for a better future. I have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who would like to have some hope, too.
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wow aqua for some reason I am not allowed to say nice things. it has been refered to the moderators 99
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aqua girl.97
too true.
I know this.
despite the fact that some think me a stupid extremist or whatever for mentioning that which I notice.
And back to the politics that is why I think there IS SOMETHING about Barack.
I think he knows what it means to dream of a better place and not wish it to stay a dream.
And maybe I as an immigerant (without problems to get here) understand more than others what the american dream is.
The same guy that said they don't get it to me today(an american ,vet, and patriot who recommended watching team america cause it was funny)
said the problem is we are a nation of immigrants but SOME are like old grapes.
and he was not talking about going in for plastic surgery.
keep Up the fight for the rights
hugs and kisses and again .I wish I could meet your dad.
he sounds like a laugh.
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I would say to all the americans that find these discussions abrasive(nice word for me) that they follow aqua's example and allow us to like the US, by giving us reason to.
as many do.
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and I realised your father is no longer with us and am sorry for that.
may he rest in peace and not have to see what is going on now.
oxo
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The mods are very sensitive tonight. It would also be nice to know why they haven't been moderating the posts in chronological order over the last couple of days.
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I'm off
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or maybe I just smell that way.:)
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it seems the moderators are having their attention drawn too easily
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Jacksforge
If my father were alive, I think he would love this blog. In addition to being 'abrasive' he would also be acidic, corrosive and a lot more outspoken than most here and in several languages!
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I'm off too. I'm making bead and the dough is ready for my attention.
Have fun!
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Ref 77
What do we think of Roosevelt?
In my opinion, he is one of our greatest presidents. If either of our candidates was half as forthcoming, effective, and persuasive as FDR was our economic future would look much brighter than it currently does.
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ref #103
If you want change why are you for Obama?. He is typical liberal democrat with a tax and spend mantra.
Of the two McCain represents the most change.
Forget the age and look at the positions.
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#116 MagicKirin
The last part of your post is the most offensive comment that has been made so far!
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The US is great as a nation because it manages to coopt peoples from all over the world. People see the US as the LAND OF REFUGE without realizing that it is the cause of most people, especially, people of color having to flee in the first place. Most world flight is due mainly to the Cold War.
The US celebrates its victory in the Cold War, especially in Africa and other parts of the Third World. But what really occurred in this so-called victory in the Third World is that the US help to install political dynansty that gave birth to Presidents for Life and other political nonsense. These people were chosen because they could be bribed and easialy manipulatated. They saw the national wealth of their country and their own personal wealth.
Anytime this mold was broken, there was an assassination. Look at the map of the former colonies. You see no fresh water for the poor, no medical facilities outside of NGOs, no schooling that does not require fees, and people living on $1 a day. Most of this is due to the banificence of the World Bank and the IMF. Two organizations that should be brought before the World Court for their aid in genocide of human aspirations.
What has made the US great is the Neocons to take over the government and hoodwink the people into embracing neoconservative VALUES instead of looking how these so-called valutes have erodded the quality of life in the world.
Bush set in China at the Olympics chiding the Russians for doing what he and the Neocons have been ordering in Iraq and Lebanon and threatening to do in Iran, and WE as a corporate group of citizens are being asked to believe THIS IS WHAT MAKES AMERICA GREAT. Poor Gerogia will have to find out how HUBRIS works in times of Greatness.
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Before we brag about Magical Openess, I want to ask: What about Jose Padilla? And the lastest victim of FBI/CIA hounding?
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115, Dominick.
I have been wondering why the present administration, or the supposed future one, has not talked of instituting government development programs that would provide jobs for the unemployed and economic benefit for the nation. This is what Roosevelt did. That's how we got the TVA, for instance, and much needed reforestation.
Handing out money to people for doing nothing is not only bad for the psyche, but is also is a waste of resources because it produces nothing. These same people should be offered productive work. It is up to the government, in depressed economic times, to create jobs and make that offer.
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For some reason my postings are not coming up. This is a test message.
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#118 marygrav
It's nice to see Americans concerned about what their Imperialism is doing to the world. However, it's important not to beat up on yourselves too much.
The British Empire (which the Scots largely ran - to my discomfiture) did most of the damage to Africa by creating an infrastructure designed to transport their raw materials to the ports, rather than for internal development. Also by dividing nations across colonial/state boundaries and storing up ethnic violence.
As I've posted before, the US is learning to be an imperialist power, but you have a long way to go before you damage the world as much as Inperial Britain did.
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ref #117
I've made far more controversial statements. I dont know if you are a messianic Obama followers but the fact is that Obama is no agent of change.
He never crossed the aisle, voted no on all judicial nominees and is friends to racists like Rev Wright and terrorist like Bill Ayers.
That is more controversial.
But like the last one : true
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24, Magic, in defense of 23, Ed.
America makes Castro look like a really bad guy. Why is Castro so bad? Because he ousted our government's buddy, Batista. Now Batista was a really nasty piece of work, but he was our buddy.
And, oh yeah, Castro also got rid of the American mobsters who had a large and profitable stake in his island and who were also buddies of Batista. Castro then set about improving the island's living standards, especially as it concerned the poor.
A really bad guy!
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Hell with all this Olympic stuff. China has been upstaged by the hapenings in Georgia, and I am not talking about an ole sweet song, but the guns of August.
Why do I think I am living through the rerun of a bad movie. Or is this Karma? What evil goes around comes around.
Congradulations to the Chinese people and the Chinese government, but you have had your 15 minutes of fame. Now it is time for scenes out of Dr. Who where the world comes to and end.
Am I still on Planet Earth or have we Jumped?
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Nice succinct analysis, Justin. It is true but to compartamentalize all Americans is quite a stretch with over 300 million of us. It is not a stretch for someone like me,who is fortunate enough to live in the gorgeous, sparsely populated state of Wyoming, to say that New Yorkers (the city) and Londoners have more in common with each other than we Wyomingites do with New Yorkers. Just an observation from the Wild, Wild West.
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Anyone who wonders why there aren't any (assuming there aren't any) Mexican born nationals on the U.S. Olympics team has never met a Mexican. Few proud Mexicans living in the U.S. would ever represent the U.S. over Mexico in any sport, even if you offered them a lot of money. A proud born Mexican will nearly always wear Mexico's colors over the colors of the U.S. The children of Mexicans who are born in the U.S., however, can be a different story.
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Tell me this. What is worse? Marygrav's robotic left wing tripe? Or Magickirin's equally robotic right wing tripe? Anyone can senselessly choose any position and the argument that goes with it if they spend enough time cherry picking the facts enough. And hence the tired platitudes of the left/right debate in the context of America are as dead as the Cold War itself.
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"Economically - culturally - the US will be challenged by China in the years ahead but in the marathon of human progress the US has the real stamina, the staying power, and that power comes from its attitude to the talents of the rest of the world: not bring it on, but bring them in."
Well first, might I just say thank you so much for the kind words! However I don't understand the above cited statement about how the US will be "culturally" challenged by China in the years to come, and how it links to the rest of your post on how that doesn't matter, because we'll still excell in the marathon of "human progress." If-as you predict-China will challenge us culturally in the years to come, that is with their ability to bring in other cultures and nationalities into its fold, then how will be still surpass them in this same field?
Also, I think I should also point out-as Oldnat and others have-that while an ability to welcome other cultures is certainly one of the US's biggest tallents, that is not by any means to say that other countries-namely the UK in my opinion-aren't just as good as, if not better than us in this field!! From what I've heard, the UK has wonderful race relations (every day race relations! not just the ones between olimpic atholeets) and ones which I think far outstrip such relations in the US!! And if that is true, then I think they are in fact much better than us at this whole cultural asimilation business than us!! All this talk of a "melting pot?" I think the UK-in modern practice-is a better true representitive of a melting pot than us! Am I letting my envy get in the way of my judgement? May be we're better, but its hard to tell with so many crime/Jessy Jackson stories in the news. Would Jessy Jackson even be needed in the UK to help improve race relations? From what I've heard no. O dear I'm rambleing!
Any way, thanks for the warm words Justin! Its nice to hear a nice word or two about one's nation from a foreigner for a change every once in a while-people need that sence of uplifting!
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#123 MagicKirin
I thought you wouldn't get the joke. Read the last sentence of your #116 again. I didn't say it was controversial, just offensive.
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ref #128
I really object to be calling a right wing robot. I dislike the simplistic terms and just because I don't drink the Obama coolaid does make me right wing
But to make it simple for you I am a fiscal and foriegn policy conservative and a moderate to liberal on most social issues.
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ref #124
I'd say Castro was worse for Cuba just as Khomeni was worse than the shah for Iran.
The fact of that matter Castro and his dictator buddy Chavez don't rule by the consent of the poeple.
Weather McCain or Obama become the next President they will win a fair election. The last flawed result was 1960 when Mayor Daley of Chicago stole the election for JFK
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Oh dear Justin.... I don't think China will ever have a 9/11 or be so universally hated as the USA... in what sense is that a triumph??
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Paddy Ashdown (look him up) was on Radio 4 Any Questions this weekend, and said something well worth repeating
It's well worth following the link to listen to the programme. His remarks come about 3 minutes 50 in, followed by three other very cogent contributors, and again, with my paraphrased bit at 10 minutes, but the whole programme is worth the time.Peace to all
ed
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Hey crongtong, there are muslims in Western China fighting and killing Chinese policemen as we speak. Then there is Tibet and the involvement in supporting the Sudanese government. What bigger, more powerful country has ever not meddled in the affair of smaller countries/regions tied to its interests? Then there are the Russians invading Georgia (after Georgia tried to fight off rebels in South Ossetia). And the beat goes on...
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Magic,
And we all know you've studied both places in detail, including numerous visits and are thus more qualified than any other present company.Complain about this comment
128, eddienix.
I should think one is as bad as the other. Both have inflexible minds. But why are they inflexible? Maybe it has something to do with security. Look at the evangelicals who have answers to everything. Same thing, though not precisely political.
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128, eddienx.
Further to 137.
Looking at some of the comments on the Israeli-Palestinian question. On the extreme pro and anti are people with great bias, but no depth of understanding and little real knowledge.
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Some of Fidel Castro's policies have been deplorable, particularly his tendency to punish dissidents, however, as opposed to his predecessor whose focus was on helping the mafia, Castro has made tremendous progress in improving education, health care, agriculture, sports and the arts.
In my opinion, crimes committed by right wing dictators supported by an oligarchy are just as pervasive as those carried out by leftist dictators supported by the masses. The only difference between the two is the target.
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Ref 120
I couldn't agree with you more. A work program focused on repairing and modernizing our infrastructure, research and development of alternative energy sources and more efficient vehicles, and preparing for the effects of global warming would reduce unemployment, increase government revenues, would create new industries and would stimulate technological creativity.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sounds like a press release from the US Chamber of Commerce.So little Lopez Lomong led a delegation of over 20 starry-eyed handpicked refugees in the Olympic parade in a grand act of touching tokenism, accompanied by typical press hoopla and photo ops to provide a sentimental snapshot of a "dynamic, warm, inclusive, welcoming" America to a worldwide telly audience. Considering there are almost 600 members of the US team that's a pretty slight percentage. No matter, Sudan is a suitably obscure, out of the way place in a continent that the US generally has turned its back on to be a suitable PR prop. In this quadrennial celebration of "peevish nationalism" called the Olympics such nationalist PR facades are all too commonplace. It might be a little more appropriate to have a parade of the victims of US foreign policy from places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Iraq, Palestine, etc., etc., etc. but it would stretch well beyond the Olympic village. And even as the "warm, welcoming" US is piling up more medals at the 'Games', outside around the world more bodies are piling up as a result of its deadly foreign policies.
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#112
Marcus has told us he chose to stop losing arguments and spends his time referring people to the moderators.
I have no comment except 'Wuss'
Jack,
Do they rust, could I mount some jumping into my pond?
Sam
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Those that call Chavez a dictator because FOX and Rush Limbaugh call him so may want to check the definition of that term.
Chavez is immature, his rhetoric is deplorable (almost a carbon copy of Ws), and some of his domestic policies are bound to harm his countrymen, but he is not a dictator. He enjoys the total support of the masses, whether or not they know what is best for them in the long run is another matter.
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136, Ed.
Ditto.
I never know how to deal with people who express strong opinions on subjects of which they have no deep knowledge. It's so frustrating. I don't understand that kind of mind (or mindlessness).
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140, Dominick, in re: 120.
I think I will comment like mad on the the major blogs. Maybe we can give it a push. It's practical and economically sound. What do you think?
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132, Magic, your last paragraph.
Electronic voting machines are not safe. They are easily hacked into. i agree about Daley fixing the Kennedy election.
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Ed (#134), I agree with that analysis. President Bush has been encouraging NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine, when he ought to be doing exactly the opposite. NATO is a mutual defense pact. An attack on one member is considered to be an attack on all. Does anyone in the UK or US really think we should send our armies into Ukraine (or Georgia) to fight the Russians? I think the idea of NATO membership for these countries is idiocy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/world/europe/03nato.html
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Ms Marbles (& all)
For the avoidance of doubt, I have visited neither Cuba nor Palestine. I have read somewhat compulsively on the latter, probably due to having read Exodus (the Uris novel) in my late teens and, as a result, spending decades as an unconscious Zionist. Jewish and Palestinian friends eventually put me right.
It is probable that my zeal on behalf of the Palestinians is due to a sense of guilt for all the years "passing by on the other side." If so, so be it.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Allmymarbles, please, the primary reason Castro is so admired is because he stood up to the U.S. and American companies. But do you think Castro did not line his pockets with money that came to him from the Soviets, the Europeans, the Canadians, wherever? Think again. Fidel Castro is one of the wealthiest men in Latin America. He gets special privileges, like any other member of any ruling class anywhere in the world.
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oldnat (#122), calling the US an "imperialist power" in the manner of the British Empire is simplistic. We are something perhaps deserving of similar disapproval, but whatever it is, it is certainly something much different.
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127, allmymarbles...
Orthodox ideology requires a common enemy. For communists the enemy is the bourgeoisie. For fascists the enemy are foreigners. For a lot of people the enemy is America or some other big country (sometimes justified sometimes not). There is so much crossover between religion and politics. Communism oftens resembles Catholicism for aetheists (Betrand Russell saw Marxist communism as a religion). And Islamic fundamentalism more often than not resembles a nationalist movement not much different than the IRA or the ETA.
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Eddienix,
If Castro's so damned rich, where is the lifestyle? He may live relatively comfortably, but I've seen very little evidence of anything lavish. Have you got inside information?
Peace
ed
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150, eddieniix.
Everyone (or almost everyone) in a powerful position takes. So my measure of them is how much they give back. Castro has done fine things for Cuba.
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#151 Gary
Different perhaps, but not much. British imperialism was different from Soviet imperialism, which was different from Roman imperialism, which was different from Assyrian imperialism,but the net effect is the same.
Empires rise, become complacent in their power, they collapse. The US will be no different from every other imperial power.
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Justin that is why my ancestors came here from Poland and Russia. No one said this country is perfect, but you can (I'll use your word) endeavor to improve yourself.
I am married to someone who is Scots-Irish. Fate has put me here, and unless I have to retire abroad, The U.S. is home.
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ref #138
I am for more knowledgible than you on the subject. I just don't see a need to be PC. The palestinians don't want peace and they chose leaders who are terrorists. Hamas is a terrorist group.
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In reply to #6, Parrisia,
"Does that include Mexican immigrants? Don't think so..."
I would think Mexican American's are prolific in the sports that are popular in Mexico, namely Baseball, Softball, Soccer, and Boxing jump to mind.
After doing a little research, check out the story of Brenda Villa.
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149, Ed.
I think there is a difference between someone who follows a subject closely and has an open mind, and one who parrots government policy and the propaganda of vested interests. We can't often be physically in the places that interest us, but that doesn't mean we have to be the product of programming.
As to the Palestine/Israel business, it will be decided, if it ever is, by whoever has the greater power. (The Ulster Plantation is still in place.) As to justice in this matter, ah well, we are talking about politics.
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For those who still retain an interest in the Clinton Saga, the internal staff emails should provide some entertainment...
;-)
ed
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157, Magic.
Sorry to one-up you, kiddo, but you ain't.
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It has always be known fact, that each nation, country, region, province, will use the weak to make the strongest nations, country, region, province etc.
America was built with the strength of Africans this is a know admision. It is also a fact that they turned a blind eye to the Jewish holocaust, as they benefited financially from this horror...not immediately, but they did benefit.
The Chinese are not different than the Americans, when you tear down homes, to build olympic buildings, and do not pay financial contribution to those who now have become homeless, what would you call this? When lawyers are put in prison for helping widows fight the Chinese corruption leaders, what would you call this?
England did the same thing after the war; they allowed immigrants to come into the country, yet paid little attention to the bigger picture. Today, there children are angry for the manner in which their parents were treated, and how they themselves are being treated.
America has taken, England has taken;China is taking from their people/citizens and leaving them with noting in return.
Why can we not learn from world history!
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Magic,
I see very little evidence of that.Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
;-)#
ed
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#148
It depends. Georgia, and many other fledgling states, sent troops to Iraq to support the US. They hoped for and deserved our support. What message do we send now? We will fight Iraq but run
from Russia? What cowards we have become.
Sad Sam.
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Ed Inglehart, #153
Forbes Magazine estimates Castro's wealth to be around $900 million. It could be their estimate is wrong (not sure how they figured it), but I would suspect they have some kind of reliable information to go on. Castro of course threatened to sue the magazine, but I don't think he has done so, perhaps out of fear of having to reveal some of what he does own. But in examing a ruler of a country where there is no financial transparency, who knows?
Allmymarbles, #154
Yes, I agree Castro has done some good things for Cuba. As dictators go, he seems to be one of the better ones. But his style of socialism requires his people to passively accept whatever good things he gives them with little hope of dissent. Though I am no fan of hugo Chavez, contrast Cuba with Venezuela and you'll discover Venezuela has a degree of democracy absent in Cuba.
Call me whatever you like, but I would prefer not to live that way. Though not always, it's usually people from rich countries and privileged backgrounds that praise people like Fidel Castro. Ask anyone who grew up under communism in Eastern Europe how they might feel about it. I don't have a problem with socialism per se (Western European style preferred, please) but I tend to agree with the Russian anarchist Mikhail Bakunin who said "Freedom without socialism is exploitation; socialism without freedom is tyranny." We in the English-speaking world have experimented with forms of socialism in the past, with varying degrees of success and failure. But the concept and practice of freedom comes from England as much as anywhere. The Magna Carta, the Peasant's Revolt, Parliament's revolt against Charles I. When Americans talk about "freedom," they frequently don't realize they are talking about a concept they inherited from England. It's just that, for whatever reason, the English take it for granted much more than Americans do. Americans worship the idea of freedom too much if you ask me, and tie it to every stupid thing we do. Cubans? Alas, maybe one day they'll have it too.
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Magic, it is precisely because I study the positions of the candidates that I am leaning for Obama.
The fact that he is planning to raise taxes on the rich and corporations to help balance the budget is a welcome departure from the borrow and spend policies of the past 7.5 years and the giveaways to the rich.
Obama's fiscal policies, such as paying for the services we get and strengthening the value of the dollar to attract capital investment may not be enough to correct the damage done during the past few years, but it will slow down and hopefully eliminate the irresponsible increases in our national debt and unfunded liabilities.
Voting for McCain means prolonging our fiscal agony and putting the economic future of our country in serious jeopardy.
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Dillon,
On tha Magic Roundabout you werea weed smoking rabbit. Have you recovered?
'It has always be known fact, that each nation, country, region, province, will use the weak to make the strongest nations, country, region, province etc.'
What? Despite the grammar please give an example?
'America was built with the strength of Africans this is a know admision. It is also a fact that they turned a blind eye to the Jewish holocaust, as they benefited financially from this horror...not immediately, but they did benefit.'
What blind eye, other than refusing to bomb the concentration camps?
'The Chinese are not different than the Americans, when you tear down homes, to build olympic buildings, and do not pay financial contribution to those who now have become homeless, what would you call this? When lawyers are put in prison for helping widows fight the Chinese corruption leaders, what would you call this?'
Examples of the lawyers? For the Olympic site evictions, these are painful but part of every redevelopment world wide
'England did the same thing after the war; they allowed immigrants to come into the country, yet paid little attention to the bigger picture. Today, there children are angry for the manner in which their parents were treated, and how they themselves are being treated. '
So by admitting immigrants England knocked down houses? Who is bitter in England for their parents? West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis? Who, How?
'America has taken, England has taken;China is taking from their people/citizens and leaving them with noting in return.'
What is a citizen entitled to?
'Why can we not learn from world history!'
What's your point? These are total no sequiturs.
Confused Sam.
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#131, Magickirin
Well you're the one that used the term "typical tax and spend liberal." I just assumed you prefer simplistic terminology. Though I wouldn't put it past Obama to keep taxes low for the rich yet continue spending $150-200 billion a year on the Iraq war. You just can't trust Democrats to act like Democrats these days, any more than you can trust a Republican not to spend like crazy (and turn a surplus in to a massive deficit).
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157, Magic.
Menachem Begin, your sixth prime minister, was leader of the Stern Gang, a notorious terrorist group.
As to Hamas, it was democratically elected by the Palestinian people. Apparently it was decided that the Palestinians did not have the vote after all.
Think about the Stern Gang and see if you can come up with a plausible anwer vis-a-vis Hamas. And don't waste our time by telling us Begin was not a terrorist. It's all there in the history books.
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Justin Webb is either naive or plain silly. The US would not be constructing an enormous wall between it and Mexico if it were as accommodating to immigrant as Webb suggests.
The US's immigration policy is class- and color-coded. If you are poor and Haitian or Somali or Mexican, forget about it. If you are a white Russian tennis star and beautiful to boot: Welcome, Ms Kornikova.
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In response to #162...
Lorddillon, trim the garbage, please. The U.S. benefitted financially from the holocaust? How, because many Jews fled the Nazis, came to America, found wealth, and made the country richer? What crap won't people say next? It is perhaps true that some Americans profited from investing in Nazi Germany (supposedly, Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, may have), but to say the U.S. profited from the holocaust is something you'll only find on an internet message board. It is Swiss banks paying Jews reparation from the holocaust, not American ones. There is a subtle difference between something that is Swiss and something that is American.
It was only a matter of time before someone brought up the Nazis or the holocaust where the subject has absolutely no place. Godwin's Law just won't go away, will it?
As far as, as you say, Africans building America, I assume you meant to say slaves from Africa. They built the economy of the South yes, which was mostly destroyed during the Civil War. So, part of the U.S. was built primarily by African slaves. But the vast majority of the U.S. economy was built by immigrants from all over the world.
These comments boards are insane. The subject invariably drifts away to comparing America with Nazi Germany. It's always the same. Why bother?
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To smilingplastic, #170
What you say is untrue. My niece is married to a Moroccan man who she met at school in Virginia. He is not from a privileged family in Morocco. If he were, he would have attended Harvard or Stanford instead of a state school in Viriginia, I'm sure. And he would not have to work. As it is, he has an education and an opportunity as a middle class man in the U.S. he only would have in Morocco or most other countries if he came from a wealthy family. It may be true that the U.S. favors the best and brightest from other countries, but it is false to say the U.S. only allows in the rich and privileged. If you traveled to New York or L.A. and just spent a day or two there, you would see tens to hundreds of thousands of immigrants just in those cities who clearly do not come from privilege. More than 8 million of immigrants come from Mexico alone.
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171. At 04:11am on 12 Aug 2008, eddienix wrote:
These comments boards are insane. The subject invariably drifts away to comparing America with Nazi Germany. It's always the same. Why bother?
---------------
My advice: Don't bother. First of all, you can't argue with people when you can't even agree on the basic premises. For example, if someone insists on telling me that the sky is green and that I'm just too stupid to see it, then I give up and move along because any discussion will be pointless. Soon, other green-sky people will respond and validate the original "argument." And eventually, you get a community of people all reinforcing each other's sincere belief that the sky is green. An outsider will not get very far trying to convince the whole lot that it is in fact blue.
It's a bit like trying to convince a message board full of 9/11 conspiracy nuts that it was actually Saudi-born terrorists trained in Afghanistan who knocked down the towers. Good luck to you.
Me? I enjoy reading the messages here when I'm bored because I find the ignorant diatribes amusing. Part of me wonders if this whole thing isn't mostly a wind-up because I can't believe there are so many irrational and ignorant people who read the BBC. Either way, just sit back and watch the show.
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Not all readers might be aware that not all Americans buy this sentimental assessment of their country, certainly not educated Americans. I wonder about the BBC these days. I know the U.S. is a large market for BBC programming, but really.
Justin Webb has apparently fallen for the fallacy that because something exists it has attained a perfect state. He might remind himself that human beings tend to form workable societies wherever they are. Whoever they are.
We don't need to examine here the nature of the achievement of those Europeans who couldn't assert themselves at home when they built an economy driven by slavery, cheap immigrant labour and protectionism. We can excuse the tall tales they tell themselves in movies and the lies they tell themselves about the failings of foreigners, whose best stories they appropriate as their own. We can ignore their many popular beliefs in things which aren't there, from angels to UFOs to aliens.
But to get to the point, far from lacking "peevish nationalism" as the article insists, the U.S in fact takes First Prize. Popular discourse is replete with peevish comment, mainly aimed at 'Eurofags' like, well, Justin Webb. When hungry the natives may garnish such invective with 'freedom fries' formerly named after those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' the French. The very same French who helped them attain their dream of a government modelled on an English gentleman's cricket club. Peevish n'est-ce pas?
Come on Mr Webb. Don't be a "surrender monkey" to the U.S. market in myths. Be some sort of man! They'll respect you for it.
Pre-emptively my family are historically very mixed European and today Polish, American, Canadian, and British. I myself am currently residing in the shambles of Britland. Exhibit A: the deteriorating standards of our newspapers and media.
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Aquagirl 103
"What we have been doing isn't working..."
Speak for yourself Aquagirl, I've little time for your foolishness becuase all I've been doing is working :-)
mablelostallhermarbles #169
"157, Magic.
Menachem Begin, your sixth prime minister, was leader of the Stern Gang, a notorious terrorist group."
To King George III, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams were a terrorist group. You mean you don't like it if I call the Stern Gang freedom fighters? Funny how you can twist words pejoratively to fit your own definition of them for a political end. Have you been reading America's most sophistocated liar Noam Chomsky? He's a champion at it. Even BBC admires him for it....since they share his political views.
So you like the Communist Mafia ruling Cuba better than the Sicillian Mafia. Frankly, I think the Sacillians had better food. It's only a matter of time before they take the island back. By 2050 Havana will be much as it was in 1950. I must say it didn't take long for Castro to turn paradise into hell. I will admit he did teach the Cubans to read. They now can understand all of their government's propaganda about why they are dirt poor. Blame it on America. Chavez and Morales are doing the same. Just watch them throw their most thriving and valuable industries down the toilet driving off indespensible foreign investment, technical, and managerial expertise. Agrarian reformers. Isn't that what most Communist tyrants and their terrorst supporters call themselves?
smilingplastic #170
There's a difference between immigrants and invaders. Immigrants come to the US legally, invaders come illegally. A very large public hospital in Texas is now forced to ration medical care. The doctors there in the oncology department will no longer be able to offer illegal aliens free expensive state of the art treatment for cancer at taxpayer expense. It's about time.
lorddillon #162
If what you posted is what they taught you at Eton, I'd get my tuition money back if I were you.
"America was built with the strength of Africans this is a know admision."
Actually, African slaves brought over by Europeans and their descendants picked cotton in the south. I suppose if you could build a nation by picking cotton, that would be true. Maybe Egypt was built that way.
"It is also a fact that they turned a blind eye to the Jewish holocaust, as they benefited financially from this horror...not immediately, but they did benefit."
I'm sure in your Bizarro world there is some rationalization for that. Too bad they aren't still producing the Twilight Zone anymore. You could send it in a suggested plot for an episode.
"The Chinese are not different than the Americans"
Funny, then why do they pay tens of thousands of dollars to snakeheads to come to the US illegally, when its the same as where they left? They could stayed home to be exploited in China far more cheaply than coming all the way here to America to be exploited. You could have made a better case for saying that Chinese immigrants helped build the railroads in the 19th century.
"England did the same thing after the war; they allowed immigrants to come into the country, yet paid little attention to the bigger picture."
Yeah but with 650,000 Polish plumbers, at least their pipes don't leak anymore. Mission accomplished. Now they can go back to Poland and make some real money.
"Today, there children are angry for the manner in which their parents were treated, and how they themselves are being treated."
Seems to me just a few threads ago, I read Britain is one giant orgy of perpetual alcoholic bashes and presumably sex.
"America has taken, England has taken;China is taking from their people/citizens and leaving them with noting in return."
I feel so poor already. I'd better go have another bottle of Lynch Bages while I still can.
"Why can we not learn from world history!"
I went to Europe to further my education. One thing I learned there is why my grandparents left.
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Re: removal of #141.
Justin, what have I done now? There are much harsher comments than mine in the blog.
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like I said this mod is a little weird.
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but ma is weirder.
Did anyone see charlie rose tonight.
wow he better watch out. i think the little nepoleon will be after him for that one.
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sam the steel frogs do rust.
I have a stainless one i made and am trying a copper one.
ribbit
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I think majikkirkin was trying to be nice back there guys, maybe we should have laid off him for a while.
or not
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And just as Rome was said to contain the omphalos or navel of the world, so the Washington elite are inclined to suppose that everything revolves around them.
The most original comparison, however, is between the policies of modern American governments and the fatal errors made by Roman emperors in the Empire's final period.
Previously, in the good old days, barbarian tribes that moved into the Roman Empire were accommodated on the basis that they turned themselves into ordinary Roman subjects or citizens. The fatal mistake was to let them settle as blocs, maintaining their separate identities in great chunks of Gaul, Spain or Africa. These were the alien bodies that became the embryos of non-Roman breakaway states.
At first, you might guess that this comparison would be used to warn the US about the dangers of letting southern California become a Spanish-speaking enclave. Cullen Murphy does have some things to say about mass immigration into America, and the Rio Grande border is the main counterpart he offers to the Roman limes or frontier - a frontier which, he emphasises, was always a porous membrane, not an impenetrable barrier.
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To Gary Hill (#43):
I was merely commenting (#6) on Mr. Webb's assertion that the US "has a warm welcome for all those who have smth to offer". Illegal alien Mexicans do offer a lot but they are not exactly welcome- so you have said.
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Gary_A_Hill:
While suspecting that China stands a fair chance of surpassing the United States, personally don't see Europe doing so. Europe is getting older and older, and they are not culturally unified. Some predictions have the American population larger than the EU27 in 2050.
Ed_Inglehart:
China and India have much larger populations than the United States, and India has considerably less land. Yet both are able to provide enough food for their own people. While their development is currently 'unsustainable' from an ecological standpoint, with advancing technologies, there's little reason to be heralding the end of the world through overpopulation. Earth can handle more than 2 billion people. New technologies can help bring a 'modern' lifestyle to all humanity without requiring that the population implodes or the environment gets devastated.
SamTyler1969/Mike_Il:
Overall, the United States does re-cede conquered countries to their indigenous peoples. The Philippines (single 'l', double 'p') had the second largest economy in East Asia under American rule--although, granted, the United States didn't help promote economic independence (i.e. the Philippines had a mercantilist model where they provided agricultural products to the USA, while the United States had a market for manufactured stuff). As with the Philippines, the northern portion of Mexico was taken partially with the valid argument that if the United States did not take that land, another country would. The UK or Russia for northern Mexico (the Russians had a fort in the north Bay Area of California), and Japan, the British or the Germans for the Philippines. Mexico couldn't hold onto its sparsely populated northern territories, and the Philippines wouldn't have been able to defend themselves if Japan (already in Taiwan), the UK (in British Malaya/Malaysia), or Germany (Micronesia) decided to take the country. Officially, Germany was occupied by the Allies, but do you honestly believe the UK, and especially France, were in a position to occupy another country. The main occupier was the United States (for West Germany). Japan was granted independence in the '50s, as were Germany and Austria. South Korea was granted independence almost immediately after 'liberation' of Japan, and Taiwan was given to China. The Philippines gained independence in 1946, a year after Philippine independence was planned in 1935 because Manila was the third most ruined city of the war (after Dresden and Tokyo). The fact is, immediately after World War 2, the United States could have just taken all of Europe's colonies, and then Europe--renaming it American Europe or New America?--including the Soviet Union. Just nuke those who disagree until they became more compliant. Most countries try to keep the land they take. The United States does stick out as a country that conquers other states, but then proceeds to grant those states independence, with a regime change. As for Panama, that was the Canal Zone, and not the country. Your argument would have been more valid if you pointed out that the USA interfered in Colombian politics to bring about Panama's independence and a Panamanian government willing to let the Americans build a canal (Panama was a part of Colombia).
And in general:
A lot of people, hopefully foreigners, seem to be under the impression that immigrants are not treated fairly in the United States, especially if they are low-skilled. While you definitely could find cases of that, generally that is not the case. Most Americans don't have qualms with Mexican immigrants, just the illegal aliens who tarnish the reputation of legal Mexican immigrants--and even Americans of Mexican descent. As for the Hmong, how in the world do you come to the conclusion that they are mistreated? Because they tend to be poorer? They're refugees, and because they are generally low-skilled, they have to work harder, which allows for less time to rear children, and so those children, bereft of parenting, often get into gangs (this is more emblematic of Vietnamese, not Hmong). People in gangs are often perceived badly. That would happen in any immigrant or natively American group in a similar situation, and--by a long shot--Hmong or Vietnamese are not stereotyped as being violent criminals in the United States.
The only major qualms large amounts of Americans seem to have is about too much immigration (from any foreign country) and the decreasing amount of assimilation as immigrants can more easily remain connected to their native countries and languages.
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Of course, it's John Edwards' fault she lost the nomination!
Her ego ate Manhattan
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Correct link this time for it being Edwards' fault Clinton lost the nomination...
My ego ate Manhattan
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Kingelisabeff (181),
Regarding settling in blocks...Anonymous (183), "Earth can handle more than 2 billion people." That's good, 'cause we're approaching seven billion, and. "New technologies can help bring a 'modern' lifestyle to all humanity without requiring that the population implodes or the environment gets devastated." I'm glad to learn that you know better than the best and most renowned Human ecologists....(in comic book for the anonymously afflicted)
;-)
ed
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What an extraordinary article. I have found your remarks on the run up to the general election fascinating Justin, but this is nonsense. American is no more welcoming to outsiders than any other Western country with large immigrant populations. The numbers of hard working eastern europeans that have settled in Ireland recently, a country with no prior history of immigration, is a prime example. Moreover, for millions of arrivals in the USA, they have been treated to sub-standard housing, poor welfare system, been shut out of the higher echelons of society, and been subjected to racism from many levels of society. Even the mot cursory glance at the ethnic distribution of wealth and resources in the Unite States demonstrates that the idea of an immigrant arriving to America to earn their fortune is an expertly constructed fallacy. The type of triumphalistic patriotism displayed in this piece is more suited to the Rush Limbaugh show than the bbc. "The marathon of human progress," the "magic openess of America"....these comments are nothing more than empty rhetoric that a journalist of your ability should never resort to. Not only are they exceptionally based and distorted comments, the are also simply untrue
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Ref 187.
It is quite extraordinary that a journalist should let himself gush in this extraordinary fashion.
He does seem to be blind to the fact that many other countriies welcome immigrants and develop their talents. The US is hardly alone in this.
Further if all you are going to do is look at the successful immigrants then of course you are going to get a distorted impression.
A number of years ago there was an excellent programme on the Irish diaspora. It pointed out that while no one could dispute that the Irish in the US, Australia etc had done well.
The thousands who died in the ports, were worked to death in menial jobs, never left the ghettoes are hardly ever mentioned. Not every Irish family who lived in the Boston slums became Massachusetts royalty. Many more simply died of fever in the slums of Boston.
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So we have Forbes, a glossy mag with its feet firmly in the Establishment, guessing Castro is rich, but not as rich as the Bushes, or the Gateses, or probably the Cheneys, or probably even Ms Hilton.
Any advance? A better guess, or evidence of ranked limousines, baths filled with Asses milk, wild parties, profligate raving offspriing?
Lifespan and literacy up there with the best, Health care better than almost all, pretty near self-sufficient in food.....
Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune
and More
;-)
ed
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It is not true to assert that the U.S.A. does do well in the Olympics. If you consider the size of the population, it is nations like Australia that are way ahead of The U.S. achieving about 8 times as many medals per head of population.
In fact most developed nations do better than team U.S.A.
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You can't do better than PJ O'Rourke's observation that a feature of pretty much any downtown US Embassy is a placard carrying, Stars and Stripes burning crowd at one side of the building and a queue at the other hoping for a green card. Membership of crowd and queue not being mutually exclusive.
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#181 "The fatal mistake was to let them settle as blocs, maintaining their separate identities in great chunks of Gaul, Spain or Africa."
Yes, the same mistake was made in America - by the indigenous peoples.
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ref #166 and 168
Dominick as we discussed you are one of the exceptions to the Obama voters. You agree with his positions. I even hazzard to guess that if you were interviewed you could do a beter job detailing his positions than some of his surrogates.
168 Obama is a typical liberal tax and spend. I've seen little nuance to his positions. In fact his first reaction to the Russian invasion of Georgia was to blame both sides, which shows he is on the extreme end in regards to foriegn policy
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ref #169
It is 2008 we are talking now. Just because the Palestinians choose to be governored by terrorists does not mean Israel or the U.S should regard them as anything else.
It goes back to my original point, The Palestinians have given no proof they are interested in peace
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Careful Justin, my wife of 20+ years is American, living in the UK we have observed over many years a campaign to encourage America phobia in the UK fed by amongst others BBC reporters. Please put a summary of your next annual appraisal on your blog....Career progression to Siberia?
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#186
There is a group of California academics (perhaps at UC Irvine) that claims the World population is now at three times the sustainable level and that we are living in a deficit of needed resources.
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Each time you go throught the magic looking glass you notice increasingly more subtle differences. Eventually you must conclude that it's far more than a material difference and differences in the details of things, the two civilizations feel different. They are profoundly different in ways that are not easily explained. There is no one simple answer. It's a difference in outlook on life, on the world, on people, on socitey, on how people relate to each other. The observant mind always looks for how. The inquistive mind asks why. That process can take decades to begin to understand.
These cultural differences evolved from a time when mere survival for anyone was very difficult. Ironically it involves both great value for individual initiative and for community spirit and cooperation among individuals. Esteem and value are rated by how successful you are at coping with the world, not what blood lineage you have, not what credentials you have or social level you are born to. Theory is prized only when it proves it works in the practical world at achieving results. Mobility in both level of social esteem and physical location within American society is very fluid. The European system simply does not translate or have meaning in the American context. This is the mental baggage Europeans bring with them they can never rid themselves of no matter what else they do. Native born Amerian citizens and those who come to the US at a very early age are not burdened with this. Jacksforge's hatred of himself is the result of the way he judges himself because that is a lifelong lesson he was taught at an early age in the UK. Even Arnold Schwartznegger cannot excape his marveling at his own rags to riches story while to an American it is not unusual. President Clinton is an example of how blaise' we are about it. In fact we expect it.
One result is that in Europe, there is constant jealousy of what other people have that you don't. The conclusion is to steal what they have and redistribute it. That is their concept of social justice, a goal of economic conformity imposed by an all powerful central authority. That is the rationale behind Socialism, Communism, Fascism, and the EU. In America, that other people have more than you do is cause for you to work harder, achieve what they have achieved if it is not one of indifference to it. That is why Europe's murderous isms don't take root here. We admire success. We value Bill Gates for what he has done and do whatever we can to encourage him and those like him in any field. In Europe they would have tried to thwart him out of existance by stealing his achievements through impossible taxes and bureaucracy at every step which is why they never have one. Sarkozy told Charlie Rose that he admired America because it creates jobs and because failure never precludes another opportunity for success. What he failed to recognize is that his own society can never duplicate that because it is structrued on an ethos which creates exactly the opposite results. If you cannot run the risk of failure, then you cannot ever truely succeed in life, you are condemned to eternal mediocrity. And that is what Europe in its essence is, a place of leveling through social re-engineering. In the newly competiive world of globalization, mediocrity equals failure. Muddling simply isn't good enough to achieve anything. It is not likely that China or India will surpass the US for many reasons but they will by some real material measures surpass Europe even though they started at a great handicap...IF they do not return to an ethos of social re-engineering that plaged them too. If India wants to succeed, it will have to throw off its inhuman caste system. You cannot discard the value of huge swathes of human capital, the only resource that counts and expect to go anywhere except for a select elite.
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ref #184
It is very amusing the Clinton claim. Ironicly it is true, but thats politics. Romney could claim Huckabee took the nomination from his for the same reason.
It could make one of the conventions interesting to watch as most of the time it is a partsian snooze fest; for both parties.
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Europe's hatred and jealousy of America's success which it cannot re-engineer as it does with its own internal economic re-leveling process even though it tries through mechanisms like Kyoto only serves to divide the two societies more intensely and point out their differences. As a consequence, Europeans will always look for weakness in America as an indicator of its eventual decline. And they will always be disappointed. America clearly has by far the world most successful system which is why it is the richest and most powerful, not just in military or economic terms but culturally as well. Maybe that last part is what bothers Europeans most, especially the French who think they are better than everyone else.
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199. At 12:35pm on 12 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Europe's hatred and jealousy of America's success which it cannot re-engineer as it does with its own internal economic re-leveling process even though it tries through mechanisms like Kyoto only serves to divide the two societies more intensely and point out their differences. As a consequence, Europeans will always look for weakness in America as an indicator of its eventual decline. And they will always be disappointed. America clearly has by far the world most successful system which is why it is the richest and most powerful, not just in military or economic terms but culturally as well. Maybe that last part is what bothers Europeans most, especially the French who think they are better than everyone else.
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Totally wrong, America's success is Europe's success. Nearly all American achievements in every filed are founded on European ones - though esxceptions must be made for the mound builders and other native Americans, whose achievements in many fields are still awaiting proper recognition.
Europeans live longer than Americans, have more equitable socieities and given the farce of the last few US elections, Supreme court stacking, subversion of the rule of law, the Clinto congress debacle, have better forms of governemtn
And as for the US miliatry might. well it can drop bombs, but the Iraq war showed it has great trouble coping with home made bombs and rusty Kalashnikovs.
Five years after invasion and the US has still not subdued Afghanisaton or Iraq and apparently can't protect its ally Georgia - on the admission of its own commanders - a shocking admission of weakness and ineptitude.
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197. At 12:08pm on 12 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Each time you go throught the magic looking glass you notice increasingly more subtle differences. Eventually you must conclude that it's far more than a material difference and differences in the details of things, the two civilizations feel different. They are profoundly different in ways that are not easily explained. There is no one simple answer. It's a difference in outlook on life, on the world, on people, on socitey, on how people relate to each other. The observant mind always looks for how. The inquistive mind asks why. That process can take decades to begin to understand. "
But it is helped if you don't go through the "Looking Glass" into the world of peverted logic.
It is not really a good idea to quote references you obviously have not read.
It always ends up making you look ridiculous.
If you had been educated in Europe you would know this fairly basic principle.
Incidently Lewis Carrol was a Briton.
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194. At 12:04pm on 12 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #169
It is 2008 we are talking now. Just because the Palestinians choose to be governored by terrorists does not mean Israel or the U.S should regard them as anything else.
It goes back to my original point, The Palestinians have given no proof they are interested in peace"
Your point is as a meaningless as your assertion that the Palestinians "deserve" their suffereing.
The Palestinians do not have to "prove" anything, anymore then a woman has to "prove" she does not deserve to be assaulted.
Or maybe she does to you?
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ref #202
Except Israel is the one assulted, today's news reported missles launched from Gaza,
The Plalestinians claim of victimahood are the equivilent of Crystal Magnum's with the Duke LaCross players. Only the PC crowd takes them seriously
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In ontrast to false assertions, look at the facts:
Frankly, I never realized that it was this bad, and this routine. I find it sickening:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1208009105
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#175
Marcus, so by your Panama logic, if I come over to your house in Morristown, break in, replace the locks and give you the new keys but 'look after' your wine cellar because you are drinking all those 90 bordeauxs too soon, that's ok with you?
Sam
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Magic,
Have the Israelis? If they have, most of us have missed it. Is it here?Not likely
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Xie_Ming,
You too can learn to do links and stuff
;-)
ed
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ref 206
Ed: Have the Israelis kept their peace treaty obligations with Egypt and Jordan? That should give you an idea who is interested in peace.
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203. At 1:16pm on 12 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #202
Except Israel is the one assulted, today's news reported missles launched from Gaza,
The Plalestinians claim of victimahood are the equivilent of Crystal Magnum's with the Duke LaCross players. Only the PC crowd takes them seriously
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Israel is occupyinbg Palestine, not the other way round.
Only supporters of ethnic cleansing would endorse this
And only a few days ago the IDF killed yet more children
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SamTyler1969 #72,
Texas won itself from Mexico, and 'the much' of the southwest called, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Wyoming,
in 1836 as an independant nation called the Republic of Texas until 1945 when respectfully annexed into the United States.
the rest is here including the war, 1846-1848. To summerize, California and Arizona "were" taken through war as we were "Nation Building" and spreading coast to coast.
True, the territories were Mexicos, names like San Francisco, San Pueblo, Sacramento should sound familiar, formally Catholic Parishes to serve the Mexicans at the time.
Just fact of Imperilism, or was it Destiny
peace
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Magic,
Have they keept their promises made at Oslo?Not according to this
or this
or this
and that's just for starters...
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AquarizonaGal #103
"What we have been doing isn't working. Maybe it is time to try new eyes, new ideas and a new hope for a better future. I have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who would like to have some hope, too."
I generaly like your post and sort of agree with you on many levels, but on this I must ask for more information. Just 'what' isn't working?
I hear this call for change and a supposed need for hope. Are we hoping to be poor, because we are rich. Even the poor have color TV's, food ,roof, cell or home phones, vehicles. Sure, fuel and electricity are expensive, but opportunity abounds.
Is that it, we need to 'change' and limit opportunity? Maybe the change is Government, we do that through elections every Two years. I, when in doubt of the canidate for Senate or House (rarely in doubt) vote for the "New Guy" unless I like what the incumbent is doing.
And I mean no offense in this, but I eat very well by world standards with no lacking for education, employment (though I am currently between projects), housing, transportation and freedom.
Azgal, I seriuously would like to know what you mean by 'change' and what it is you are 'hoping' for.
post peace, quest for knowledge
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ref #211
As usual you miss the point. The U.S should be supporting their friends. But if you want to look objectivly Israel has a track record of keeping it's word.
The Palestinians know nothing but violence and will never accept Israel.
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Simon21 #200
"Totally wrong, America's success is Europe's success. Nearly all American achievements in every filed are founded on European ones - though esxceptions must be made for the mound builders and other native Americans, whose achievements in many fields are still awaiting proper recognition."
Name them. :) Yes, most advancement are built on previous gains in information, but in the States, is where that information wasn't mocked, but put into production and use. The car, airplane, programming, genetical enhanced food, vaccines, et cetera.
oh my, such is such
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Magic,
You'll receive no further replies from me. My tolerance for your opacity is exhausted
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Doug,
;-)() ed
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The Double Sputnik of 2008: An End to Illusions
Plus ca change....Peace
ed
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Everyone hates America -- the big bad imperialistic, self-appointed, world policeman.
But when some injustice is done somewhere in the world; people scream that America does not react soon enough or with enough power. "There's never a cop around when you need one, right?"
When America does engage and win (often at the cost of much of its treasure and blood of its young)-- then the success is chalked up to "allies". The blame of any difficulties during these times is too naturally assigned to America.
The Cowboy is the picture of all that is good about America -- Independant, hard-working, hard-living, loyal, viral and honorable-- yet the rest of the world has turned that word into something ugly, all the while spending hundred of millions tio watch American western movies every year.
...and people wonder why Americans don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us?
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My apologies, I should have used proper grammar.
After reading Justine's blog again, I stand by my comments. If I wanted to be specific, I would have written a book.
America was China many moons ago; and for the gentleman that spoke about the green and blues skies....you could not have made a more excellent statement.
As for Sam, the stage can be lonely, when you are the only one taking a bow!
Cheers,
dillon
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To #210 DOugTexan.
It is also worth mentioning that the US paid Mexico for California and Arizonia after the War.
That is payment on top of the funds given to MExico to help them re-build. The US is a horrible imperialistin tat fashion. When we conquer a nation we always give it lots of money to re-build. Whether its the Marshall plan to re-build Europe or Billions to Iraq.
The US should not be so inclined to do such things in order to be abetter imperialist. If the US were a better imperialsit, it would have followed the model of the USSR after WWII. I wnder if the US would have done as the Soviets did; If Western Europe looked more like Eastern Europe, would the EuroLiberalTrash still hate us?
No good deed goes unpunished.
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The Israeli government promised US presidents to halt settlements and
forced the pace of new settlements.
Uncontestable lying to their major supplier of funds and weapons- all courtesy of the US taxpayers.
__________________
The constant policy is to stall until the Palestinians can be eliminated, while lying and using pretense about negotiating peace.
______________________
The fundamentalist religio/ethnic extremism eliminates any hope of reasonable conduct from the Israeli regime.
Only the removal of loan guarantees and the withholding of further US tax funds and weapons might have some effect.
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ref #215
Good, that will elevate the intelligence of the discussion.
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DougTexan (#210), it was called "Manifest Destiny," not imperialism. Sure, California, Texas, and the US southwest were taken from Mexico. But the Spanish took Mexico from the aboriginal people, as the Europeans did everywhere in the Americas. The Spanish and Portugese between them controlled almost everything south of Texas, so they didn't come off too badly.
Was there ever a greater act of imperialism than Pope Alexander VI dividing up all the unconverted territory in the New World between Spain and Portugal in 1493?
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smilingplastic (#170), you do not understand the distinction between "immigrants" and "illegal aliens."
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to the moderators, I had some posts removed.
The reason cliamed is defamatory.
I identified Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez as dictators.
What is the problem?
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Shrub said
Give him his due! he was a lot quicker off the mark this time than he was about Israel's disproportionate response in Summer 2006...
Salaam, etc.
ed
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'Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"'
Where did we lose our way?
Sad Sam
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SamTyler1969 (#164), I'm not suggesting that we should run from the bear, but that we should not tweak its nose.
"Discretion is the better part of valor." (Shakespeare)
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In response to MarcusAureliusII's comment "surviving in great adversity and hardship, living among barbaric tribes"... really man? Seems funny to me, to chide the author of this blog for not reading enough American history and relying on superficial stereotypes (an unfounded chide in the first place), and then yourself relying on the most cliche of Hollywood stereotypes regarding the the "terrible savages" and the "noble pilgrims". Please, hold your tongue next time. Dense, dense, dense.
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192. At 11:52am on 12 Aug 2008, KomlaNokwe wrote:
#181 "The fatal mistake was to let them settle as blocs, maintaining their separate identities in great chunks of Gaul, Spain or Africa."
Yes, the same mistake was made in America - by the indigenous peoples.
too bloody true
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ref #226
Major difference, Israel was defending itself from agression from a terrorist militia that in violation of a treaty Lebanon allowed to operate.
Russia invaded a country which had not attacked it.
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SamTyler1969 (#227), the "golden door" is still open. The problem is with those who sneak in through the back door.
You should have attributed that quote to Emma Lazarus.
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#228
To which I can only say:
'Exeunt, followed by a bear'
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#205,
Apologies Marcus, my error linking you to 175.
Anonymous Californian,
If I go round to Marcus house in Morristown, break in . . . . .
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218 the cop reference is a good one. the problem is what makes a good cop.
by what I have seen here in the US(sorry some of you) the cops are not exactly a good example to follow, unless you want to end up with a foreign policy reputation like the one the US has now.
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Klee,
None of us are surprised when Anus caninus is as dense as the black hole he so resembles...Welcome to Justin's blog party!Peace
ed
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oh back to those people fed and sheltered by those barbarians.
I bet that was just tough.
because the locals were a lot nicer then than the minutemen are now
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#221
For those who may want on-the-scene reports from Israel/Palestine, here is another serious source:
www.kibush.co.il
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Reference Georgia/Russia:
It looked to me as though the "Orange Revolution" was a CIA-organized thing (same printed placards as in Caracas, etc.).
There is no doubt that Georgia's PM thought he could recover territority inhabited by holders of Russian passports.
The invasion was stupid and he got a bloody nose.
The big difference in today's World is that the Russians are now pulling out of Georgia.
Be thankful for that and let Sarkozy do his thing.
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213, Magic.
You are so prejudiced that itis impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.
Ask yourself this question, "Is it possible for any nation to be totally without fault?"
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a charity put water out in the desert for migrants from mexico so they did not die of thirst.
Oh no, now that's wrong.
welcome.If you can make it.
how long before this turns into a syndicated show,like "cop brutality"
real accepting.
Illegal legal my behind. people are people .
criminals are criminals.
and criminals can be created out of anyone with a tweek of the law.
enough americans seem to want to retire in mexico.
nice excuse this legal arguement.
I just spoke to a guy from nigeria today and we were laughing because we were discussing how many nigerians were in the UK as a result of that colonial screw up.
Then we were laughing at how america thinks they are not deserving of immigrants.
Well they must just like their 50 model picket fence box dream zone..
sad really.
migrants are not the problem.
the Charlie rose show last night(the one that ma keeps quoting) had an interview with don keogh and the " ten commandments of business failure"
it also discussed the georgia osetia situation.
old charlie though Bush a bit strong,as well he may.
pbs charlie rose worth a view
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236. At 6:10pm on 12 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Klee,
"Dense, dense, dense."
None of us are surprised when Anus caninus is as dense as the black hole he so resembles...Welcome to Justin's blog party!
Peace
ed
but watch out he does bite, normally get his own tail though, so not much of a worry.
woofwoof
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To#212Dougtexan
Wow! I usually try to keep my posts short and also not get too involved in debate as I am not good at it. I tend to be too emotional. I value people and feelings more than facts but you asked some very good questions so I will do my best to answer.
What do I hope for? PEACE. A folded flag and the 'thanks of a grateful nation' do not replace a young life. We have given our precious blood in too many wars. Perhaps I am naive but I would like to see people talk before they shoot. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
What isn't working? Obviously, the foreign policies of our government, encouraging people to excesses in energy use and over consumption through misuse of credit. Our education system is suffering through too much reliance on mass testing and not enough on teaching our children to be critical and creative thinkers. (my personal opinion, only)
In spite of Justin Webb's kind remarks in this blog. There is a mean spiritedness and intolerance in the debate surrounding immigration, especially where I live, that touches me deeply. It is not easy for the average Mexican national to get legal entry. There are also other nations who are not "favored" for immigration. This is a FACT.
My parents were immigrants. I was raised to 'waste not, want not,' to work hard,to love my country, but to be critical of my government. I am old enough to remember the remnants of the depression, the wars that followed it. I hope and pray for better every day.
I could say a lot more but that would be boring and irrelevant to many so I hope this answers some of your questions. I also respect your opinions, as well.
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Meanwhile, in Palestine, Israeli generosity on display.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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marcus I cannot see how you can possibly think I hate myself.
If it were not for the fact hat you get so much so wrong so often.
I am fine with my self. no worries no need for a shrink(unlike you )
I do not need to "ply my women with alcohol"
nor do I hate my parents"for giving the shirt off my back to the homeless"
I will not feel the guilt of "turning my heating up higher and my ac down lower,to make up for the hippies"
and whats more I am not a prize "plop" like you.
so that is guaranteed to make anyone feel better.
"for if you are down, just look down further and be grateful you are not where it all lands"
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not to say I cannot see why others would hate me.
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#241Jacksforge
My comments in #243 regrading immigration my interest you. My son-in-law is African and what he went though to get legal status and then citizenship was truly awful. I sometimes think our Statue of Liberty must weep!
Obama has stated that he wants a program to legalize the 12 million ,so called, illegal immigrants to our country and to set a more reasonable immigration policy. (And believe what you will posters, not all these 'undocumented' people are from Mexico)
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ref #240
Ask yourself what nation would tolerate missles from another country shot into civilian areas without responding.
The U.S and Israel aren't perfect but in almost every conflict in the last century both have been on the moral side.
And is Israels case they have been the victim of agression in 48, 67, 73, 2006
Let the Palestininas show some respect and atone for their crimes against Israel.
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Ask yourself what nation would tolerate missles from another country shot into civilian areas without responding.
no worse than a bomb in a busy shop during the christmas rush ,paid for by american fund raiseing
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#248 MagicKirin
"both have been on the moral side" -
like the last throw of British/French Imperialism, when Israel conspired with Britain and France to mount an illegal invasion of Egypt?
Thank goodness that the USA stopped that piece of nonsense!
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#232
Hi Gary,
I didn't have to attribute it, you knew who wrote it and where it is.
With all due respect, the door is not open to the poor, tired and huddled masses. It is open to the rich, the athletic, the skilled and the well educated. Plus a few 'Fashion Models of distinguished merit'. In small numbers.
Sam
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aqua
I whole hartedly agree.
I find it amazing that when there are groups like the minute men at the borders that america think it is so accepting.
maybe america is. after all a land mass probably cares little but the inhabitants are not so accepting
but then in this case it is a brit,Justin.
but as I said he must be trying to get a green card for he likes the life here with cheap gas etc.
he must be well jealous of me with my american pass the port.
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but to the fray
"The U.S and Israel aren't perfect but in almost every conflict in the last century both have been on the moral side."
majik just up from this post
what crud.
now I know vietnam was french started but moral side.?
Iraq.
moral side.
the first gulf war . no invasion but thousands of deaths by bombardment.
mainly soldiers right.
but thousands that were of no real threat to the US killed, basically to prove a point and test some new armourments.
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Aquarizonagal
Thank you for you for your answers. We are in agrrement on most parts, but I must point out that your country spends time, money and much effort in being,... um, diplomatic. we try santions, aid and many other tools to avoid war or conflict, the fact is Saddam Husien was Incompetent. The Taliban were the same. So I disagree respectfully with this statement, as it leaves no room for resolution.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
With that said, our foriegn policies reflect our desire as the "light of freedom". Granted, some seem to be and possibly are self serving, though knowing our intentions as a people, our leaders surely know and think long and hard prior to declared action, even though we only realise it as it happens, Monday morning quarterbacks always have 20-20 vision
On public schools I share your concern, but the problem with them in my perspective is to much "Government" input and controls. Not nearly enough responibilty put on the parent to be involved and add to thier childrens education.
Can't argue with you on immigration, our states share that border. You see, I think there are immigrants and illegal criminal aliens, no 'illegal immigrant', by itself and each words own definition, the two words don't go together.
As far as: "This is a FACT.", I must agree. If your a trained proffessional in any field, you are put in the front of the line. BTW, I think that should happen, just like for the students that train here and then go back to improve thier country.
God bless your parents, mine and many others share this blessing. I share the emotional bond of my past and present you speak of, and one of the reasons I seek out your posts.
Thanks again
Vamanos con dios!!
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just a general comment about the isreal and palestine conflict. this conflict is centered around religous ideology so even if there is some legal agreement(which i dont think there will ever be) the fighting will continue because both sides believe it is their divine and exclusive authority to occupy the disputed land.
both sides has extreme fringes that will not tolerate any compromise on this issue, its not unique to either isreal or palestinians.
remember yizhak rabin who was assasinated by jewish extremists who opposed his signing of the oslo accords.
leaders of isreal who try to further the peace process while even hinting on ceding disputed territory is often met with stiff resistance. the same goes for palestinian authorities.
its obvious that neither side can fully tolerate each other especially because its a religous dispute where both sides are bent on the destruction of the other.
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The reason criminal aliens in the United States and elsewhere are rooteed out is thier existance in todays society creates a person of a lie. From the ID card, social security and stolen idenifications, the aliens create havoc, pain and disruptsion of life for the victims of thier illegal activity.
It is not just schools, hospitals and jobs, the false (lie) ids have corresponding numbers to real ID of inocent victims somewhere. This is the 'real' stolen ID crisis in America, swept under the carpet for some liberal reason.
Philip Dormer Stanhope, 4th Earl Chesterfield (1694-1773), British statesman, letter, Sept. 21, 1747,
This British Statesman could of been speaking of the criminal element living here. Oh, I know "it's about earnig money' or 'They're good people', "they're not hurting anyone' , but it is all bull.
Legal immigration gives you certain rights, ie; to work, pay taxes, drive, medical, school and others, all requiring ID and the corresponding number.
Just have your social securitys number questioned, benifits denied due to being paid to a criminal alien who used your number for identification, and then collected your benifits.
Many of the vicitms today don't even know it yet, and it has hit epic proportions!
amigo aqui
peace
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248, Magic.
Did Israel ever commit crimes against the Palestinians?
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#254Dougtexan
Thanks for responding. I know that I have naive and unreal expectations that we can find more peaceful ways of living together. I also know that sometimes we must defend ourselves but I guess I would like to end my days in an ideal world.
I still believe that trying to understand each other and talking together is better than fighting.
We both share an immigrant background that we are proud of. I think that is one thing that makes America strong.
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Dourtexan
I will agree with you regarding parental involvement in education. We are raising a young grandchild. I expressed to someone, a dismay at the amount of meaningless daily homework, considering what I find a deterioration in our schools. I was told that schools were doing this because many parents would not spend any real time with their children if they did not have to help them with homework.
I found this very upsetting and I hope it is untrue. We cannot 'out-source' the raising and education of our children!
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Saddam Husien was Incompetent.
doug I would go further , Id say he was a homacidal maniac with way too much power given to him.
"Can't argue with you on immigration, our states share that border. You see, I think there are immigrants and illegal criminal aliens, no 'illegal immigrant', by itself and each words own definition, the two words don't go together."
i can't argue with you there either.
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the answer to the illegal immigration issue is not as complicated as politicians try to play it off to be. there really is no political will to solve it.
if u clamp down on the business hiring illegal immigrants then they will see no purpose in risking their lives to come to a country that offers them no jobs.
but $$ comes first, u clamp down on the cheap labour source then these businesses will suffer, and the economic client is not ideal for more job losses. so this illegal alien issue will not go away anytime soon because businesses have become dependent on this illegallly cheap , below minimum wage labour source.
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#261Moderateobserver
This issue is not as simple as you would like to state it.
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#255
The conflict is not really religious.
The conflict is one of stealing land from the Palestinians.
There are three vectors within Israel:
1) extremist religious fanatics (mostly Orthodox)
2) ultra-right wingers (Likud).
3) secular and Reform (moderates).
All want land.
(1) believes and teaches a vicious religio/ethnic ideology [those who read the last zope.gush-shalom list of weekly atrocities will note how the fundamentalist described his joy over smearing a nine-year child over the road with his truck].
(2) quotes, when useful, fundamentalist phrases but are more interested in money, power and expansion.
(3) are so disgusted with Israeli politicians that they do not make an effort to vote, although they are in a majority.
If US financial guarantees and military donations were withdrawn, (3) and some of (2) might take control from the fundamentalist fanatics.
As to the Palestinians, fewer than 7% are extremists. Logically, Hamas is their only choice, even though they would dearly like to be able to survive in their own, Occupied, land.
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For those who may have missed it, here is a recent atrocity report, prepared by Israelis who do not support the extremist Israeli regime:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1208009105
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187. At 10:56am on 12 Aug 2008, madigaf
Are you comparing immigration in Ireland to day to that of the US Circa say 1880.Seriously, if america is so racist is it that the most successful groups in US society in terms of education level and per capita income the Cubans, Koreans, Chinese.May want to use facts next time Mr. Madigaf.
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#189, Ed Iglehart
Ed, so what if Forbes part of the establishment? Castro is part of the establishment too, just the supposedly left wing set of the establishment that hobnobs with Nelson Mandela, Gabriela Garcia Marquez, Ernest Hemingway, Alice Walker and Jack Nicholson.
Why do you insist on proof of wild parties to confirm a person's wealth? Does Bill Gates have orgies in baths of milk? Even if he does, I'll take Windows Vista (even if it does suck) over the Cuban health care system (even if it is as modern and good as the Venice Beach free clinic). Actually, I guess I prefer the romance of 1950s American automobiles and the great baseball players of the Cuban "anti-establishment" over the soullessness of the BMW 500 series and video games, but damn it if I'll live in Cuba if I can't freely read Justin Webb's column.
Which leads me to ask, if you don't trust information merely because it is from the establishment, yet do trust information from the anti-establishment, then why are you hanging around on bbc.com? It's almost as if you are suggesting that we can't believe Castro is wealthy unless some underground paparazzi films him with limos, drugs, women and lots of cash, and conscientiously publishes the images in "The Communist Party's Daily Mirror."
Maybe few things are as mainstream these days as the anti-establishment (left or right) hanging out on the BBC website. See you at Burning Man, dude...
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265
yea well hmm statistical reality ?
probably.
maybe because after fighting to get here they are just a little more driven ,another reason to let migrants in.
Not to say it shows acceptance.
Making it rich as the only store keeper that thought to sell Ghee would make you rich in some communities. But not show any sign of being anything to do with acceptance.
And doug. Identity theft is a strange creature available because of the way we live our modern lives.
pin numbers at checkouts with people behind you and all the obvious stuff, and then there are the cases like where target got hacked .
Recently busted.
Now I would devils advocate that the amount of theft so as to provide alternate identities for immigrants would be stopped by stop making it so hard.
Let them get a licence .under their own name.
relax working rules so they can go to the labour b board and say."hey this dude wants to pay me 3 bucks an hour and I should be happy"
those paid using false identities will probably get min wage so the employer does not get done for min wage violation.
so raise min wage and give more rights to all workers.
and even the legal people will benifit.
just a thought
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The debate about who started the Israeli-Palestinian conflict about who is the most cruel, the most vindictive. and the most intransigent reminds me of the old question: what came first, the chicken or the egg? Trying to place responsibility or blame for the tit for tat that has been going on since Israel was created serves no purpose, which may be the reason why manipulative politicians on both sides of this conflict are so intent on keeping the debate going. The Israelis need the settlements to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, and the Palestinian leaders need turmoil to stay in power.
Hopefully, people of good will on both sides of this tragedy will prevail and will be able to find a solution that facilitates an agreement leading to peace, safety and prosperity for all.
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Talk about sore losers...
Caucus killers
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#267Jacksforg
I will add to your post that most so called 'illegal workers,' regardless of how they got ID. do not file for income tax refunds, earned income credit, food stamps, welfare checks and will not be collecting on social security.
To those who like facts, research just how much money that the Fed is holding that was received from undocumented workers.
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Candace9839
Great link! I guess that they just 'don't get it!'
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Re: #271 Busing Iowa participants in from Illinois, a disabled elderly blind woman who had trouble getting up the stairs? Yeah, I'd say the Clintons are still coming to grips with having been outfoxed at their own game.
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"The Israelis need the settlements to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, and the Palestinian leaders need turmoil to stay in power."
dominick will you excuse me for not thinking
"The Israelis need the settlements to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state,"
is hardly a well reasoned argument for steeling land .
And is the reason the palistinians have for being more than a little fed up.
A peaceful leader will emerge, but you have to let them have some piece first.
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#187, Madigan
It is true that many immigrants endure hardship and poverty in the U.S. It has always been that way. Millions come here to try and work their way out of poverty. Social services do help the poorest to some degree. It is the the illegal immigrants who fare the worst.
But to suggest that immigrants do not find success or fortune in the U.S. is so bizarre it's as if to say the earth is flat or that 9/11 was planned by Jewish CIA agents. If immigrants have not found success in the U.S., then really no one has. The U.S. must be a pretty poor country if what you say is true. Without the prosperity, drive and work ethic of immigrants, the U.S. would be somewhere between Luxembourg and Brazil on the GDP scale, of not worse.
One could argue that the USA was traditionally designed specifically for the prosperity of immigrants (especially European immigrants), at the expense of non-immigrants (African Americans and Native Americans). Of course, much has improved for African Americans and Native Americans, but there is still a ways to go.
I'm not sure if anyone has written about it, but I'm curious to know if anyone has ever written anything comparing Native Americans to Mexican immigrants. Something like 90% of all Mexicans are part Native American, so the border between the U.S. and Mexico, in terms of Native Americans in the U.S. and Native Americans in Mexico is irrelevant in a sense. I wonder what percentage of Mexicans within Mexico can even be deemed to be from an immigrant population. There is so much gray area here.
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Ref 274
Eddie, I am in full agreement with everything you said. I would add that if immigrants were denied or were unable to succeed in the USA they would have stopped coming a long time ago.
I have pondered often about what you said in your last paragraph. The majority of the populations of Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Bolivia, Ecuador, and Peru have, as a minimum, some native American blood; and more often than not are at least 50% native American. Considering the migratory lifestyle that existed in much of the continent before its conquest, you can't help but wonder who is really illegally here.
I find the use of the term Hispanic, which was originally used to describe people from Hispania (Spain) not only incorrect when it is applied to people from Latin America, but almost insulting. There are still a lot of people in Latin America that resent the Spanish conquest and colonization. Obviously, they are not Latinos (Latin) either. I suspect most people in the USA would not be pleased if we were identified ethnically using similar epithets.
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#274Eddienix
I agree with most of what you have said. Please read my posts #243, 270 and 274.
I consider myself a child of the so called 'American Dream.' I am a child of immigrants who worked hard and made a better life for their children. I like to believe that, I in turn, have made a better life for my own children.
The whole current immigration issue/policy is mean spirited, counterproductive and just another way for politicians to focus public attention away from what we really should be looking at such as energy, foreign policy and the economy.
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Ref 273
The creation and existance of Israeli settlements beyond the 1967 borders is, indeed, a violation of international law and UN resolutions.
The point I was trying to make, perhaps not too clearly, is that those settlements are not an accident or a spontaneous move to accomodate the tens of thousands of European Jews that have been flocking into Israel for decades; but a deliberate policy designed to make the creation of a Palestinian state as difficult as possible.
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277
fair nuff
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Ref 270
You are absolutely right. On top of that most have taxes, social security and MEDICARE deducted from their paychecks. Their taxes and contributions go into general funds and, like you said, they never collect a dime because of their status.
The stories we hear so often about "illegals" saturating our hospitals and schools ignore the fact that many Mexican immigrants come here legally, and many were born in this country. It also ignores the reality that if you take a casual look at the people in any hospital, school, unemployment office or any other government facility in our country the overwhelming majority are white Americans!
Those illegal immigrants that are not working in agriculture and other jobs, that most of us refuse to do, can be seen in the parking lots of convenience stores waiting for someone to offer a day job.
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279 or cleaning the hospitals.
that's why some are confused .
they see someone darker than them and assume they must be illegal and scrounging.
as opposed to legal workers.
do they really go around playing pretend ins agents. no so they assume.
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Eddie (266),
Don't get so rattled. All I did was ask for some more evidence that Castro was self-serving, or that, if he was, it was to the detriment of the Cuban people.
I still haven't seen much such evidence. I have seen (and pointed to) some evidence that Cuba is doing rather better than some would have us believe. Nobody has asked you to give up your video games and move to Cuba.
Dominick,
Actually, it isn't. It's pretty clear who is the occupier and who the occupied, and you know it. It's also clear who can travel and who can't, who gets water and who doesn't, and who lives with open sewers and eats UN food-aid and....
Salaam ;-(
ed
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555861.stm
le penn sells to the chinese.
look apparently the "cheese eating surrender monkeys " are actually not a bunch of racists .
ha ha he had to sell to the chinese you just know that must have been hard for him.:) for which I am glad.
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#276
Couldn't agree more. God Bless you, and God Bless America.
Sam
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klee21
I think that the Indian tribes back in earlier centuries pretty much fit the category of barbarians. That is a step up from being savages....and British.
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klee21
I think that the Indian tribes back in earlier centuries pretty much fit the category of barbarians. That is a step up from being savages....and British.
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Well they were evidently more civilised than you, so what does that make you?
Always supposing you know what the word barbarian means.
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281. At 01:02am on 13 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Eddie (266),
Don't get so rattled. All I did was ask for some more evidence that Castro was self-serving, or that, if he was, it was to the detriment of the Cuban people.
I still haven't seen much such evidence. I have seen (and pointed to) some evidence that Cuba is doing rather better than some would have us believe. Nobody has asked you to give up your video games and move to Cuba.
Dominick,
"The debate about who started the Israeli-Palestinian conflict about who is the most cruel, the most vindictive. and the most intransigent reminds me of the old question: what came first, the chicken or the egg?
Actually, it isn't. It's pretty clear who is the occupier and who the occupied, and you know it. It's also clear who can travel and who can't, who gets water and who doesn't, and who lives with open sewers and eats UN food-aid and....
This attempt to put the Israelis and Palestinians on the same moral plain is an old far-right strategy.
Hitler did the same when he attempted to equate "German" suffering with jewish, blaming the latter for the trials of the former.
We hear it also from the defenders of apartheid who might agree apartheid was bad, but that the blacks in the townships were bad as well so one cancelled out the other.
There is actually no defence about occupying 4 million people and treating them as inferior. No matter what they do or who they are, imprisoning a whole population is against every law of humanity.
Some Pro-Israeli fanatics realise this so try to avoid the unanswerable argument by trying to pretend the victim is as bad as the perpetrator.
One gets the impression however that if they were to be mugged, raped etc they would not care for this corrupt attitude to be used in court and for them to recieve 50% of the blame for their own suffering.
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klee21
I've never made any pretense that I am anything other than what I am, a little to the right of Ghengis Khan. Compared to me, Dick Chaney is a pacifist.
I learned the lessons of history. I have no illusions about the world. Were I President, the USSR would not have become a nuclear power. China would not have become a communist country. There would be no Mahmoud Ahmadinejads.
Don't get the idea that the founding fathers of America were pacifists or internationalists. One reason they fought the war of 1812 was to capture Canada. They Monroe Doctrine told Europe to stay out of the Western Hemisphere. Manifest Destiny was a doctrine to create a nation that was a continent wide, no matter what. America's leaders in the last few decades have been soft headed and do not understand most of what it takes to lead America. McCain no less so than Obama. In fact, Obama might make a more assertive President looking out for America's interests than McCain would. Obama certainly will have a much greater propensity for protectionism. America needs to get out of all these insane treaties like WTO, the UN, NATO and the rest of them that compromise it sovereignty. It needs to protect its borders. I do not believe in equality among nations. Zimbabwe and Sudan are not equal to the US. Neither is the UK. I do not believe that any man's death diminishes me. Killing Hitler wouldn't diminish me. Neither would killing Hugo Chavez. America needs to stop worrying about what is happening to the rest of the world and what it thinks. That is not America's resposibility or problem. America's only problem and responsibility is America.
I am not barbaric. Savage would be a far more appropriate adjective.
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I've never made any pretense that I am anything other than what I am, a little to the right of Ghengis Khan. Compared to me, Dick Chaney is a pacifist."
No like Dick Cheyney you talk a good fight, as long as others do the fighting, and the dying of course.
"I learned the lessons of history. "
However my counting is less good and I think there were four world wars.
"I have no illusions about the world. Were I President, the USSR would not have become a nuclear power. China would not have become a communist country. There would be no Mahmoud Ahmadinejads."
Or the US, given my failure to comprehend simple gorgraphy.
"Don't get the idea that the founding fathers of America were pacifists or internationalists. One reason they fought the war of 1812 was to capture Canada. They Monroe Doctrine told Europe to stay out of the Western Hemisphere"
Except for the fact that US founding fathers did not fight the war of 1812 neither did they come up with the Monroe doctrine, largely because most of the Americas was owned by Spain.
I plainly do not know the history of my own country.
"what. America's leaders in the last few decades have been soft headed and do not understand most of what it takes to lead America."
That would be because of the quality of the people who elected them?
"America needs to stop worrying about what is happening to the rest of the world and what it thinks. That is not America's resposibility or problem. America's only problem and responsibility is America. "
And so say the Palestinians, the Iraqis and most of the rest of the world!
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#287
Blah blah, thousand year Reich blah.
Are you of diminutive stature?
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#287
Sam has seen a lot of people!
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re 274 - eddienix
re 265 Truthslinger
sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Of course, you are both quite right to say that America, as a society, deliberately targets immigrants in some way. I wasn't suggesting that What I was doing was expressing my distaste for the vitriolic language used by Justin in his article. America is not some racist xenophobic concentration camp...otherwise immigrants would not continue to go there. But neither is it a safe haven where all your dreams come true. And i think that presenting it as such has no place in journalism. Surely we can find a happy medium, rather than the simple toing and froing between extreme positions, and admit that American, as any country, can engender different experiences for different immigrants and different communities. My personal feeling on the issue is that aspects of the political establishment are not doing enough address the problem and are more content to score points off each other. I also believe having lived in America for a while (in response to your point gunslinger) that there was a somewhat negative view of immigrants particularly against the latino community. I'm not saying this is present all over the country, but I have to say, I was quite shocked by some of the attitudes I came across as I have not experienced this in Ireland. Maybe this is because it is not such a politically charged issue in Ireland.
Anyway..I have jus added this digression at the end to clarify my own experiences, but as a rule i completely agree with you both. America is certainly a better place to emmigrate to than a whole host of other countries we could care to mention. But less of the hyberbole from members of the jounalistic community
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284. At 05:58am on 13 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
klee21
I think that the Indian tribes back in earlier centuries pretty much fit the category of barbarians. That is a step up from being savages....and British.
added to
" It starts with a boatload of outcasts landing in a far away strange and dangerous land 400 years ago, surviving in great adversity and hardship, living among barbaric tribes, and going through one trial by fire after another. "
Mainly wrong
as always.
They were not cast out from plymouth, they left because they did not like the new "liberal" ideas.being PURITANS
so they got some boats and left
what is a barbarian to you?
and how do you who has been shown so much in life and ignored it get off calling anyone else let alone the true Americans barbaric.
the above paragraph was phrased just so for a reason.
" Barbarians are distinct from savages in that they are willfully ignorant, choosing to remain primitive despite contact with more civilized societies, "
wikpedia
(notice the spelling mistakes grammer trolls)
i think it may be you that is the barbarian.
you are wilfully ignorant .
you remain primitive despite contact with civilised societies.
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288 well said.
oh and to point out the flaw here in his version.
he too wants to isolate america good. the rest of the world will stop sending you any raw materials, and if you attack the rest of the world america will still lose. because those russians DO have nukes and your missile shield is not ready yet.
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i got it.
justin wants all the immigrants to go to america because he is heading home to blighty.
sorry for ever doubting you.
here in oregon I could be in trouble for forgetting to mention all the rain when I am possitive about the place, after all we don't want ALL of texas and california here.
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Jack,
;-)I recall hearing of a sign saying "
ed
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yea I always tell them how unpredictable the weather is.
:), and the loggers will run you over.
and stop thinking cause you moved to the third world your open minded
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like the t shirts in washington.
seattle sun festival june 31st
and people in seattle don't tan they rust.
didn't work for them though.
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thanks to Bill gates:)
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Marcus.
Why do you take pride in being an idiot?
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In reviewing these comments, let me editorialize:
85% of makind are obedient autoritarians and will do what their betters tell them to do.
Fewer than 15% are "liberals" who will dare to think for themselves.
Only about 7% have principles that cannot be shaken.
Now, it is possible to expound on the foregoing, but the attention span that TV has developed would not accomodate it.
From these considerations, one may suggest that "the majority is always wrong" (Ibsen) and that our potential salvation
lies in presenting alternative views.
{could media types possibly grasp this?]
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marbles. have you read "get fuzzy"
today it seems to be about MA.
worth a giggle.(not MA the cartoon)
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Xie_Ming,
You reminded me of a quotation from George Bernard Shaw:
;-)
ed
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Here's a real winner :
"Why has the USA been so successful a nation?", you ask. It's because "it has a warm inclusive welcome for those who have something to offer", you say.
Does that include Mexican immigrants? Don't think so..."
You don't think so, but you're in error.
You ignore the many millions of legally immigrated Latinos who live excellent lives in the US... far better than was available to them in their country of origin.
You also ignores the following fact - there are 18 million Mexicans in America illegally.
THAT'S 20% OF THE POPULATION OF MEXICO.
20 % !!!
Is there anyone so deeply ignorant to believe that's NOT a problem, and that America has no right to limit such activity ?
Yes, there is someone so ignorant... the cheap-shot artist who posted this nonsense.
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We have welcomed with open arms many Mexicans, as well as Latinos from many other countries. The issue is not with immigrants. The issue is with people who cross our borders illegally. We are entitled as a sovereign nation to control our borders. I'm a liberal Democrat and I believe this.
I ask my British and European brothers and sisters this: How would you feel if 10 million plus people entered your country without following any of your laws? Let's not forget the fact that it is terribly unfair to the people who come to our country legally, follow all the rules, to then watch the US government want to push the people who didn't follow the rules to the head of the line. That is wrong!
Then let's add another layer to that: How would you feel if another nations drug lords with some nifty para-military outfits started crossing your borders cause all kinds of chaos? Entering your national forests to grow their drugs? God help anyone who gets in their way or happens upon them!
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MarcusAureliusII: I hope you were joking about the original settlers living among barbaric tribes. Cause if we're honest it was the settlers who were barbaric.
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ricky
go to the top and read through all posts.
there are many answers to what you call a problem.
and if you were so accepting your reply would not be here.
after all if accepting with open arms is to be taken as meaning accepting with open arms then it cannot also mean keeping them out
the use of the word PROBLEM is a give away to us liberals .
the Problem I see is that you will have no one to pay social security.
no one to work for your underpriced goods and food.
Where you from, did the first nation give you legal papers to be here.
etc etc etc.
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Certain facts to also consider:
Mexicans come to the USA because they can find work, and work that pays better.
That means that Americans want to hire them and do.
Mexicans also work hard and work long hours.
They would not come if they could not find work.
_________________________
The USA at one time had a constiutional Prohibition against alcohol (thanks to the evangelicals).
A massive development of crime and corruption of police and officials took place.
Prohibition was repealed and the problem became quite manageable.
If the Public Health Service made drugs available on prescription, the criminal problem and the billions spent on ineffective repression would be eliminated.
For simplier minds: crime exists where there is easy money to be made.
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Ed_Inglehart (186):
Oh wise one, great that you found some quote by "eminent ecologists," but the fact remains that a lot of ecology and how the climate, environment, and human society interact is still up for debate. And also a fact is that China and India both can provide enough food for their massive populations, with more people per square mile or kilometer than the worldwide average.
Yes, the global population is around 7 billion people now, and is set to reach around 9 or 10 billion before plateauing. But Earth can handle 20 billion or more if fossil fuels are replaced by solar, wind, biofuel, hydrogen etc. power sources, there is mining for resources from space, and other up-and-coming technologies once considered exotic.
This region of California is one of the most densely populated in the nation, and one of the most technologically advanced. With more technological advancement here and then spread across the globe, there's no reason why Earth can't support a population in the tens of billions. There are plenty of resources in this world, and with greater efficiency, there can be more people.
And, you know, for every single 'eminent scientist' you can quote, can personally find another 'eminent scientist' to counter. ;-)
As for being anonymous, that just seems the smart thing to do. Just an opinion, but using your name in front of potentially thousands or millions of readers is either insane or 'exhibitionist.' Some people value their privacy when they can get it.
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Ref 304
I consider myself a center-right Democract, and I share your opinion concerning the need to enforce our laws and do everything possible to guarantee our national security, but my take on the "illegal" immigration issue is a bit different than yours.
Above all, I blame our government - both Democrats and Republicans - for failure to modify our immigration laws to satisfy the need for unskilled workers in our country. The consequence of the great success we have had in providing college or trade school education to our children is that the pool of unskilled workers in our country has dwindled to the point that it is almost non-existant. Some sectors of our economy, especially agriculture, depend on unskill workers to function and remain profitable.
Our government must device a system
that allows migrant workers to enter the USA legally for a pre-defined period of time, work, pay taxes and eventually return to their homeland or apply for permanent visas and, ultimately, citizenship if their behavior while in our country meets the requirements for those privileges.
Our country is a nation of immigrants and until a few decades ago there was no such a thing as an immigration visa. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants, mostly from Europe, entered the USA via Ellis Island with nothing more than a small suitcase and a dream to be successful. My Dad was one of them.
The only problem with legalizing the status of foreign unskilled workers is that it would force US employers to abide by US labor laws. Paying competitive wages and providing benefits is not part of the agenda, that's why our government is doing nothing to correct this problem.
Denying entry to people from Mexico and Central America who are starving or oppressed, while we allow Cubans to remain in the USA because they are fleeing from a communist country does not say much for our sense of morality or equality.
The most glaring difference between Cuban and the Mexican, Guatemalan, Honduran, and Salvadorans that constitute the bulk of what we call illegal immigrants is that the ancestry of most Cubans is Spanish, while the others are at least partially native Americans. As a descendent of Europeans I feel very uncomfortable labeling Mayans, Aztecs, Yaquis, Tlaxcaltecs, Chibchas or Quechuas as illegal. I suspect that in God's eyes I am much more of an illegal than they are.
I am also very uncomfortable expressing outrage when our sovereignty is violated while we we don't hesitate to launch unprovoked attacks and invade other nations. I had the same uneasy feeling recently when I heard our President preach human rights in China. The ability of his hosts to keep a straight face was admirable.
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vickieb73
Afraid to call them "Injuns?" Not politically correct. Better not watch any old Westerns. Not many Cowboys called them "Native Americans." Lots of definitions for barbarians. Among them were nothern European tribes, especially Germanic. Guess that included Brits and their Hessian friends.
Now what would you call the Apaches? How about the Comanches? John Smith would have lost his head to the Algonquians...if it hadn't been for Pocahontas. Ever visit Mayan or Aztec ruins? Try Tulum or Chechinitza. There you can climb the same stone pyramids to the top where the Priests threw their human sacrifices to their deaths. What's wrong with calling them barbarians. It was part of their evolution. They hardly ever scalp anyone anymore...except at their casinos. Nothern Europeans including Brits...well that's another story. Er....how about dem Rooskies :-)
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Mucus,
Bodies down stairs? Tourist tales, no evidence. It's like Palak's sarcophagus showing a spaceship. Nice story, but round objects.
Barbarians, well that cameto mean one group. The Goths, specifically the Ostragoths. They did one thing, invent the stirrup. Then the couched spear, the lance, the heavy cavalry. Dominated the battlegroung until WW I.
They became? The Angles, Prussians, Danes, Vikings, Saxons, Normans. The worlds fighters. They invaded Britain twice. Took over the land, became the elite. Followed the Empire. The pilgrim fathers may or may not have been Goths. The Founding Fathers were.
So who am I. I am a Goth. An invader, a taker, a fighter. Scum of the Earth. Proud? Perhaps. Changing my ways, yes. Civilized? Against my history I am trying.
Barbarian? Of course. Those other folks? Not Barbarians.
You Marcus? Roman? We kicked your ass.
Arabs, Asians, Africans? Not Barbarians.
Sorry.
Academic Sam
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311. Sam
Mucus, Erroneous... And all I call him is Marcus. I am inspired to do better.
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Californian,
Try the First Law of Thermodynamics.P.S. I don't imagine you bothered to actually read what the eminent human ecologist wrote. Be my guestSalaam, etc.
ed
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Hi Justin,
I haven't been to the US as often or for as long as you (naturally) but I have lived there for a short period and visited often, and have many American friends (and even my daughter in the local US school here in Germany for 5 years).
However, I don't share your somewhat gushing view of America's welcoming attitiude toward new arrivals. The principles that established the US enshrined the welcome extended to others, but the reality is somewhat different.
American was built, essentially, from refugees. They fled Europe and Asia to seek religious, economic or political freedom, or just explore a new frontier.
But try turning up in Kennedy, Dulles or LAX now as an economic refugee, seeking a chance to start a new life away from poverty. Unless you already have the tools you need to escape from your previous situation (education, sporting ability, money or an established entrepreneurial reputation) you're not going to get far.
This was coming long before Ellis Island shut it's doors, but the effects of 9/11 have made this at least an order of magnitude worse.
I'm an Ameriphile by nature, it's a country that fascinates me due to its potential and unique place in the world. But at the moment they are on a destructive path of seeing the rest of the world as something to be kept apart from and protected from. That will only hurt them in the future.
Consider this : if Barack Obama had a British mother, rather than an American one, would he have been allowed into the US as a child? Son of a foreign father and, in this scenario, a foreign mother. Who could have seen his potential 47 years ago?
That is the potential that the USA is missing out on by failing to welcome the world as it once did.
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Tychobear,
What sort of poverty travels by jet?Otherwise, well said.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Ref 314
Consider this : if Barack Obama had a British mother, rather than an American one, would he have been allowed into the US as a child?
Interesting observation; which could be amplified by asking if someone with Obama's background would have similar opportunities in Europe? Ethnic diversity is not evident in Brussels!
I agree with Ed's point, there is a dramatic difference between what we consider poor "legal" immigrants today, particularly those coming from Europe, and the human masses that flocked to the Americas a century ago.
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Marcus: I would call the Apaches and Comanches a civilized race of people living in a land that was theirs. Then some white dudes came across the ocean and stole their land and proceeded to commit an act of genocide, which continues to this day. The Native Americans were protecting their land, their way of life, and their families. Just because we won doesn't make it OK. Just because it was OK to call them injuns way back when doesn't make it OK now.
This has nothing to do with being politically correct and everything to do with being honest. I understand some of my brethern prefer to live in a fantasy land ignoring what atrocities their ancestors committed and are happy to turn a blind eye to what happens today. Not every tribe is lucky enough to have a a casino to support their people.
I guess responsibility isn't for everybody!!!
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" Barbarians are distinct from savages in that they are willfully ignorant, choosing to remain primitive despite contact with more civilized societies, "
wikpedia
(notice the spelling mistakes grammer trolls)
another definition
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Mr. Webb will be banned from the UK forever. He wrote entire piece complimentary to the USA and didn't enclosed the required staement of Hatred and Vitriol for George W.
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probably be given a medal by the states for services to the states.
if it were not for the link later.
showing ya'll what happens in immigration centres(prisons)
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After reading these comments, the thing that alarms me the most is the remarks from well over half the people on here refering to, or expressing the same belief that the US does not welcome poor economic legal imigrants. This is very disturbing inded!!! Those people who experience discrimination should certainly sue!!
#314 Tichobear, your comment on an economically poor "legal" imagrant not getting far at all in the US unless they have conections/education what have you, might I just ask, 'how do you know this for sure? Are you one of those unfortionate statistics? Please elaborate. And again as I've stated above, if you or anyone you know has gone through this ordeal...sue!!!
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no rash,
so all of these people that come here must be multilingual law graduates eh.
because that is what you are likely going to need to be if you want to sue anyone.
come on man you've made far better arguments than that.
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jacksforge #322: Well I'm not sure I agree that the only people who can aford to sue are the richest of the rich, but perhaps sueing isn't the "best" option (dependind on the individual's particular circumstance.) Perhaps one could find a way to go to Washington, get on the news, write powerful people to get their attention to get laws changed/created. I mean TichoBear mentioned a century ago that they thought that the US was much more welcoming of worldly citizens than they are now, and certainly people were much more raceist/sexist back then than they are now!! How did those imigrants "make it" according to you Tichobear? And how specifically are we falling behind now?
Markfromoxsfard #8: Surely you don't actually think that the only way to escape poverty (be it in this country or any nation abroad) is through sport do you? Because that is certainly not true!! People may come here from abroad to play sports to escape hardship yes that's certainly true, but for my own peace of mind, I'd like to think that at least some come for the opertunities/traning they'll recieve!! Just as the same I'm sure holds for the UK and Australia as well!!
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jf
" Barbarians are distinct from savages in that they are willfully ignorant, choosing to remain primitive despite contact with more civilized societies, "
wikpedia
Now what could be more primitive than banging a piece of metal with a hammer into something that vageuely resembles a frog....to some people....if ithe sun hits it in just the right way...on a Tuesday....if its a date with an odd number....west of the Rockies....and you're stoned on LSD. Hey jf, next time why not try clay.
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vickieb #73
The indians were barbaric hunter gatherer tribes. Their happy hunting grounds covered vast swathes of land. It is believed that just 3 million of them claimed most of the land in the US. Two tribes alone, the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot claimed most of Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire. People who settled on what they considered their land or were just passing through could be killed for their transgression. Your claims are a false statement of facts just as some claim that the handful of occasional Spanish Missions which dotted the Southwest gave credence to Mexico's claim for hundreds of thousands of square miles that became part of America. There are no apologies given or needed for the way America became a continental nation, your typical left wing claptrap not withstanding.
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It has been said that the US is the one of the oldest nations (I think only the UK government and a few others is older- isn't France on it's 5th republic? )and one of the youngest constantly taking in people even if there are hurdles in place sometimes.
One additional aspect that set America apart from other countries is that we are a country defined by our ideals. It isn't the land or descending from certain ancestors (is it true that Germany has let people descended from Germans who left 400 years ago in as Germans?) Things like the first and second amendments define us.
And yes, other countries like Australia and Canada do a great job taking people in.
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NoRash,
There's always the army. Indeed, and that's one of the objections to "cherry-picking". We selectively allow/bribe the talented so that we can win medals or enjoy services have which should go to the credit of their native countries...Salaam, etc.
ed
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New Hampshire Joe,
Dunno, but Israel will welcome Jews who "left" almost 2000 years ago...but they won't let in a Palestinian who was driven out only sixty or forty years ago...Salaam, etc.
ed
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Ed Iglehart #327: "There's always the army."
Yes, and the music industry and that all too offten under discussed tool which lifts the majority of people right around the world not just out of poverty, but to a higher status in life...education! Markfromoxfard made it seem as if "escapeing hardship" is the only reason people come here, and I'm sorry, but I don't think/hope that's true.
"Indeed, and that's one of the objections to "cherry-picking". We selectively allow/bribe the talented so that we can win medals or enjoy services have which
should go to the credit of their native countries..."
Yes, but lets be honest with ourselves here for a second. Doesn't every country do that to ensure their nation's best chance for success in the Olimpics? But my point was I should like to think that it is possible for a not so tallented individual to come here in the hopes of being trained, and does recieve training well enough to be accepted into being on an Olimpic team. Of course the chances will be slim-as they would be in any other country-because all people, be they imigrants or US citizens, must undergo rigarous training and triles to even make the Olimpic team...after all, the Olimpics are comprised of the "best" atholeets in the world hands down! So of course it'll be tough! But my point is I at least should like to think it has happened and/or is possible.
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NoRash,
The "two wrongs" fallacy.Otherwise I agree with your sentiments.
Peace
ed
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All these idiotic posts about the U.S. not accepting poor immigrants are amusing. If the U.S. did not accept poor (legal or illegal) immigrants, there would be agricultural industry, no hotel industry, no restaurant industry, etc. If the U.S. did not accept poor immigrants, who would we pay measly wages to? Who would work 12-14 hour days rebuilding New Orleans if Mexicans were not welcome here? Some of them stay and build good lives for themselves after initial struggles. Some of them make some decent money and go back. Some of them just struggle. But if you think they aren't here, it's because you have never been here this side of a posh Manhattan clothing store or Yellowstone National Park, and it's because you spend too much time trusting your news sources and your ever changing prejudices.
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Simon 21, #200:
"Totally wrong, America's success is Europe's success. Nearly all American achievements in every filed are founded on European ones - though esxceptions must be made for the mound builders and other native Americans, whose achievements in many fields are still awaiting proper recognition."
That's one of the more Eurofascist statements you'll read in the guise of anti-Americanism. I suppose the creation of blues, jazz and rock and roll are owed to the Europeans since the British and Dutch created the Caribbean slave trade. If nearly all American achievements are attributable to European success, then all American flaws are European ones as well. Of course, people like Simon 21 want to claim everything good about American as being attributable to Europe, while everything bad about America is simply and only American. Little English (well, I assume he's English since his name is Simon, but I could be wrong) minds cope this way...
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Simon21, #17
"Ridicucous comment again Justin I'm afraid. One day you will discover Australia and find its lifestyle and sports achievements (per size) outweigh anything the US has achieved.
And it has done this without civil war, conquering other nations or interfering with its neighbours."
The Australian lifestyle outweighs the American one? I liked Australia a lot, but when I visited Sydney and Melbourne, I couldn't help but think I was in really nice homages to San Diego and Boston, just without any black people.
As as far as "conquering other nations or interfering with its neighbors are concerned" I guess you don't consider Australian and Tasmanian Aboriginees to be neighbors. But it's hard to invade neighboring countries when their populations outnumber yours by more than 10 to 1, and when you are landlocked. Give Australia some time. It's a very young country, though geographically disadvantaged (and read "Guns, Germs and Steel" while you're at it).
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eddinix do you think boston may have been a nice homage to somewhere in the UK.
and that the same style arrived to australia as well.
or do you really think the aussies were copying some american town?
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""That's one of the more Eurofascist statements you'll read in the guise of anti-Americanism. I suppose the creation of blues, jazz and rock and roll are owed to the Europeans since the British and Dutch created the Caribbean slave trade. If nearly all American achievements are attributable to European success, then all American flaws are European ones as well. Of course, people like Simon 21 want to claim everything good about American as being attributable to Europe, while everything bad about America is simply and only American. Little English (well, I assume he's English since his name is Simon, but I could be wrong) minds cope this way...""
or are you a very dark kettle.
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"or are you a very dark kettle."
Nice vagueness. Meaning what? Be specific...
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"eddinix do you think boston may have been a nice homage to somewhere in the UK.
and that the same style arrived to australia as well.
or do you really think the aussies were copying some american town?"
Copying? No. Not any more than Boston or New Orleans is a copy of a European town. Sure, Melbourne is naturally inspired by and resembles a British or European city. But it also reminded me of Boston too, from the size of the city to the architecture. If you go to Boston you might agree with me, or maybe not.
Sydney, on the other hand, feels quite West Coast American, from the surfing to the Harley Davidsons. It reminded me of a cross between San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle and Portland, Oregon. The Darling Harbour area (I think that is what is was called) was almost an exact replica of Harborplace in Baltimore. I was in Sydney 11 years ago, though, so it may have changed.
I'm not knocking either city. I thought both of them were great, and they both did have their unique charms too. Can't do much but like Australia...
By the way, I responded to you above under the name "niched." I accidentally logged in under another username which I forgot I had saved on my other computer.
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Let's give credit where it's due:
;-)
ed
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America's success was in large part due to its rejecting everything about Europe germaine to creating its new society. How it worked, what its relationships were, how government and citizens related, which in turn affected how people related to each other. The poineering spirit was a strong part of it. American invented itself. It was a nearly complete rejection of what Europe was, it did not want to repeat Europe's mistakes. America is an anti-Europe. The American Revolution was not merely a political revolution against European rule, it was a revolution of the mind and a different outlook on life. In the 232 years since the Declaration of Independence and shortly after the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the three pillars of American civilization, America has not only run past every European nation, it has run past the aggregate of them leaving them in the dust. It's time for Americans to lose its remaining ties with Europe, ties which while helpful to Europe are only a lead anchor around America's neck. This WILL HAPPEN in the coming decades because of demographics. Of 300 million Americans, today 200 million are of European descent. According to a recent exhaustive study, by 2050, America is expected to have 439 million people of which only 204 million will be of European descent. About a third will be of Hispanic descent, Asian and Black populations will grow by 60% each. This is due to the European descended population aging according to the projection. Europe had better get used to the idea that its ties with America will grow weaker and it had better learn not to be reliant on it anymore. Fix Georgia yourselves Europe. BTW, English is expected to ramain the dominant language in the US. By the third generation, that's all Americans customarily speak even those of the same ethnic backround when talking to each other.
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" The trouble with the world is
the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent full of doubt"
Bertrand Russell
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341 ukwales
thanks for your input yet again.
Maybe I will have to stop being such a barbaric philistine(or is that gazan) and read a bit more of this
Bertrand Russell.
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337
eddienix
specifically that the architectural heritage you described was one taken from europe.
the californian look is at best a little southern european .Boston northern european
"Little English minds cope this way"
" I couldn't help but think I was in really nice homages to San Diego and Boston,"
your view that they are homages to american cities.
specifically. when it is obvious they were not influenced by the american style at that time.
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Fix Georgia yourselves Europe.
finee tell your monkey brained president and his pet to shut up then. we were all doing quite well down the process of peace before those idiots jumped in.na nan naannnannana. we got you, your a fat hairy lier.No we didn't"school bully politics from the world bullies.
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so marcus complains because I point out
that europe was doing well in fixing georgia situation until and here must be the bit that was offensive xxxxxxxxx GW and his lacky Mc Cain decide they could not keep thier mouths shut and like little school kids had to go jeer at russia just when shuting up would have been more advisable.
All I said was he had the brain of a lesser primate.
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jf, Europe is doing a great job fixing Georgia. The Russians government signed Europe's miserable piece of paper saying they will withdraw while their troops invade even deeper into Georgian territory and dig in for the long haul in South Ossetia and Abkhazia hinting they will never give them up. That was their plan all along, that and to overthrow Georgia's government and install a puppet regime of their own. All that was lacking was Sarkozy declaring that he'd brought peace in our time.
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jacksforge, #343
"specifically that the architectural heritage you described was one taken from europe.
the californian look is at best a little southern european .Boston northern european"
Have you ever even seen the skylines of Melbourne and Sydney? Look them up on Google Images. They are modern and vertical, 20th Century American/Canadian in style. They are not 18th/19th century European instyle. I have been to the South of France and the Costa del Sol. Other than mansions in the hills and winding coastal mountain roads (and the climate), not much about the South of France reminds me of Southern California or of Sydney in terms of architecture. The Costa del Sol, on the other hand, has tons of tall buildings, but most of them were built within the past 25 years, decades after the high rise development of the U.S.
Melbourne does have a more European feel to it than Sydney, but the tall skyline mixed with a European feel reminds me of Boston. But the fact that it is not half as old as Boston gives it an even more modern feel.
Besides, I wasn't just talking about architecture, which is why I also mentioned surfing and Harleys.
"your view that they are homages to american cities.
specifically. when it is obvious they were not influenced by the american style at that time."
Well, my response above would apply to this comment too. By the way, sorry if my "Little English" comment offended you. It was not directed at English people in general. Just a certain pompous stereotype well presented by a certain person around here. I'm actually mostly an anglophile, yesterday reading an old ghost story by M.R. James and listening to some Richard Thompson earlier. I guess that's partly why I'm here on bbc.com. It's just that certain pompous types need to be taken on...
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Sarkozy will do a much better job than Bush in handling the Georgia crisis. Bush has been so inept in diplomacy that the U.S. has lost its status as mediator of conflicts until further notice. The U.S. used to make an effort to mediate. Now it just takes sides. Why? I suppose for the sake of appearances. It makes us look decisive, loyal and demanding. But it's so naive. The borders in Europe are ever changing. Let the Europeans deal with it. We don't have the diplomatic stature right now, nor do our threats scare the Russians, much less the Iranians. If we're not careful, Russia will be invading Poland next, and there will be nothing anyone can do about it.
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eddienix
you are dangerously naive. My advice to you and others of like mind, if you can vote in the upcoming presidential election....don't. You do not have the knowledge or experience to make a sound judgement.
Diplomacy won't get Russia out of Georgia. Short of military action, only the most severe alternatives such as economci sanctions, embargoes, freezing of bank acounts, and the like has any hope of working.
Here's a joke. Why not have the ICC indict Putin. Hahahaha. If he's a mind to, he could order having the Hague vaporized. From the time he gave the order to the time it was done would take no more than 20 minutes.
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The Russians are moving closer to Tblisi. Their goal of taking over Georgia is becoming increasingly clear even to the deaf, dumb, and blind. Well maybe not to the dumb.
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Russian soldiers in Georgia will be replaced with KGB agents under the guise of peacekeepers who specialize in subversion and ultimate capture of power and territory. The illusion will be compliance with the agreement to withdraw soldiers. The Russians have staying power. The KGB agents would more correctly be called "piecekeepers."
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eddie I thought maybe you were talking of the "old town centres so I will have to conceed that in terms of modern architecture they have much in common, especially out in the sticks.
as for sarkosy vrs GW you are right there as well.
Bush is just trying to deliberately push russia to bolster support for mc cain as the hard core repub he is(or not)
A tactic I think he should be derided for not praised as some here would.
As for Richard Thompson , who's he?
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"Fixing" Georgia will require more than just Europe or just America. It will require a pan-global approach where everyone makes it abundantly clear to the Russian government that trying to repeat the militaristic adventures of the Cold war will result in nothing more than a bloody nose for them in a place where it hurts - international trade and influence.
Putin - nobody believes Medvedev is actually in charge in Moscow - is a throwback to the Russian nationalism brute force of the last century. He might well reflect the character of Russia more accurately than Yeltsin and the economic and political modernisers of the 1990s, but that changes little when considering the potential cost of allowing Russia to repeat Hungary, Czeckoslovakia and Afghanistan mentality.
A united economic and political front might give them a moment of pause to question whether they want to go down this road again. anything less than unity will allow the Russians to bully individual countries at the economic and/or political level and blunt the effect of any effort.
I want to see a Russia that is an active participant in global affairs, with a pragmatic approach to cooperative development. Not one that sneaks into an invasion of a sovereign neighbour while the world watches the Olympics.
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