Monochrome thinking
We murdered him! So says that man who shouts a lot on MSNBC about this terrible story which I include out of deference to those who found by Olympic thoughts a tad unrealistic (they are not, but sure, there are exceptions to the rule, and terrible ones at that: no point in denying it).
On the other hand just read some of these comments from educated Chinese people in response to my colleague James Reynolds' perfectly reasonable observations on aspects of Chinese sport (they must be educated because they are responding in English) and you get a picture of the isolation and ignorance and monochrome thinking that these semi-closed societies engender. Modern economies require flexibility and free-thinking; I do not see it in many of James' blog responses.
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James is making the China Olympics out
to be a remake of the 1936 Olympics in
Nazi Germany, a test of "systems."
I don't see that here. I see a people who
are coming out of isolation and taking
their first steps into the modern intellectual
era of individualism, which is a big transition
for them. It could take a hundred years.
Unlike, say, the Russians, who may never
get there.
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This is a very strange posting. You are talking about isolation and ignorance on the part of the Chinese, juxtaposed with tremendous cruelty, amounting to torture, on the part of the Americans.
What are your priorities? The American barbarism should be capturing our attention, not whether or not the Chinese play basketball the way we do.
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Ms. Marbles, this may surprise you, but we have
the worst bureaucracy in the world, which is why
Americans are largely distrustful of their government.
The only difference between the US and
authoritarian regimes is that we have the internet
and (somewhat) free press to expose these
excesses. But, these excesses still exist, and
DHS and ICE are probably the worst of the worst.
As an example of their stupidity, DHS compiled
a "no-fly" list consisting of an enormous number
of names of people who were suspected of
being terrorists. One of them happened to be
a member of congress from Nevada, who raked
them over the coals.
To repeat an earlier post, there was a bumper
sticker prevalent in the 70's that read,
"I love my country, but I fear my government."
It's as relevant today as it was then.
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Monochrome? Is that a "spectrum" in shades of grey?
Even more one-dimensional than the usual hackneyed left/right political "spectrum"!
;-)
ed
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Justin, I am a big fan of your blog - I find your posts insightful and, for the most part, as balanced and reasoned as possible.
Unfortunately, I fear that this post falls rather short of you usual impeccable standards. Although I agree that some of the comments to James' blog were a little excessive there are massive elements of truth in a number of them.
It is an overwhelming and often humiliating paradox that western democratic people believe that they are the only ones suitable to comment on others having "monochrome thinking". We believe that since we have freedom of speech and voting that we instantly have a universal outlook that takes into account all viewpoints.
This is simply untrue. We may be able to compare similar forms of government to each other, such as your insight into America from a more British/European perspective, but it becomes a lot trickier when comparing a "liberal democracy" with a socialist or authoritarian state. Even worse is to compare cultures.
I agree that James was not being negative about China, its culture or its sport, although some phrases could perhaps have been better chosen. Your comments on the other hand are surely just as stark as the educated Chinese, as you have labelled them.
Ultimately the West has always looked down on authoritarian states. This is due to opposition to the ideal rather than the facts because if people in China are kept at an arm's length from goings-on in the West, then how are we any better placed to know what's really going on in China?
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Justin...you are digging yourself into a whole here. Comparing one society unfavorably to another, without taking into consideration the myriad or cultural and contextual contingencies that make China and the US so raciaclly different, is an excellent starting point to start making highly dangerous essentialist claims about races. The explanation for a lot of Chinese ire about media coverage of the Olympics is rather simple. Some Chinese people are upset about the amount of negative coverage given to their country's attempt to hold a major event. They are not the only society who occasionally have juvenile reactions to politically motivated events. Remember the proposed boycott of French goods into the US? They changed the name of "French fries" to "Freedom fries" on the menu in the capitol building. Any viewer o the Bill O'Reilly show will also be familiar with the type of lunatic nationalism that can pervade in the US
I don't want to just pick on Americans. The british are well capable of engaging in similar kinds of sabre rattling. The daily express and mail for example. The point is that expressing claims like such and such a place is the greatest country in the world or is better than somewhere else, is a complete waste of time and does little but illustrate ignorant views. And as for your remarks about economics....well I'll allow statistics to talk for me. I'm sure you ca find China's growth figures somewhere....
I don't usually post this long. The reason I am doing so is to register my profound disappointment with your two blogs on this subject. Since the beginning of the primaries I have followed this blog attentively as I have found your views on the campaign to be fascinating. I event mentioned to friends how much I was looking forward to reading your book. But won't bother if it s going to be another lightweight exercise in Anglo-saxon posturing. There's already enough of this rubbish. We need to understand that cultural differences exist and ought to be respected. Not turn around a blow a rasberry at people for being different
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Heading to Nevada to relax, gamble and drink more than usual. And to read ms hate theusamarbles and gunsandnoreligion spout thier distrust and loathing for my/notthier own contry is disgusting.
No time for either.
Namaste, peace Gods speed
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excerpts
"Mercosur condemns EU migrant law"
"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez told the Mercosur meeting in Argentina that Europe had "legalised barbarism"."
"'Outrageous'
In a joint declaration, they rejected "every effort to criminalise irregular migration and the adoption of restrictive immigration policies, in particular against the most vulnerable sectors of society, women and children".
The statement also noted "the necessity to fight against racism, discrimination, xenophobia and other forms of intolerance".
It was signed by the seven presidents of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela, and ministers from associate Mercosur members Colombia, Ecuador and Peru."
"Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa called the EU measures "shameful".
Brazil's Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva branded it "outrageous, ignominious".
Bolivian leader Evo Morales said the measures did nothing to combat racism.
Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner said the law was inadmissible.
Uruguay's leader Tabare Vazquez said: "Nobody emigrates for fun, they do it out of necessity."
There are hundreds of thousands of South Americans working in EU countries, many of them illegally.
Under the new rules, an illegal immigrant can be detained for a maximum of six months. This period is extendable by a further 12 months under certain conditions if, for example, the immigrant fails to co-operate with the authorities."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7482767.stm
By any measure of comparison, American treatement of its estimated 12 million illegal aliens is by and large humane with occasional exceptions such as the one noted. They get free medical care, their children get educated in their own language and many other social benefits, and now there is even talk of giving them a difficult but possible legal road to citizenship as happened once before. I'm not saying it's good but it is nothing like the cruelty of Europe. Even inveterate America bashers like Hugo Chavez never said anything comparable about American treatment of illegal aliens. How strange to find myself agreeing with the likes of Hugo Chavez for once that Europeans are barbarians.
One more case of the hypocritical European pot calling the American kettle black.
As for China, despite its 5000 year history, it remains in large measure a backward primitive country. It's economy has failed as an agrarian state, unable to feed itself. It now earns its money by manufacturing vast quantities of cheap largely disposable consumer goods of mediocre to average quality, the result of attracting vast sums of foreign investment capital. This capital is attracted to China like a magnet because for the most part, it has very low subsistance wages, no labor rights laws, no environmental or safety laws, in fact almost no laws of any kind. The only law is that you cannot criticize the government. If you break any other law, you can usually bribe your way out of any penalties for a small sum. China is so ignorant of the outside world, so warped in its views, that the overwhelming majority of its people don't have a clue as to how cruely they are being exploited and what the consequences are for their own personal lives. Those that are aware cynically dismiss it becauae they are among the relative handful of beneficiaries who personally profit from the system and are perfectly happy with it the way it is. That China would one day equal or surpass American civilization on its current track is a joke. If and when they wake up to what is happening and demand equal rights and fair treatment, the foreign capital will simply pick up shop and move on to somewhere else even more primitive and ignorant.
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I am astonished again at the tone of this Justin. Apart from the fact that it is just plain wrong - CHina's economy is growing vigorously despite it being "semi-closed".
Haiti, on the other hand, has practically no bars on free thinking, but no one would suggest its economy is booming.
To put it historically Nazi Germany's economy outperformed that of free-thinking democractic France.
As for the Chinese basketball team, who cares? With one billion people to chose from the Chinese are obviouly going to find a lot of top athletes, especially now that the national diet/lifestyle has improved.
But if they don't who cares? The Olympics have become a near farce anyway with supposed "national" teams using ringers, ever more insidious drugs and records decided in 10ths of seconds.
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"As for China, despite its 5000 year history, it remains in large measure a backward primitive country. It's economy has failed as an agrarian state, unable to feed itself. It now earns its money by manufacturing vast quantities of cheap largely disposable consumer goods of mediocre to average quality, the result of attracting vast sums of foreign investment capital. This capital is attracted to China like a magnet because for the most part, it has very low subsistance wages, no labor rights laws, no environmental or safety laws, in fact almost no laws of any kind."
This is true, 10 years ago, certainly not the case now
"That China would one day equal or surpass American civilization on its current track is a joke. If and when they wake up to what is happening and demand equal rights and fair treatment, the foreign capital will simply pick up shop and move on to somewhere else even more primitive and ignorant. "
The same thing was said about the US
And it has to be said, as the Georgian episode shows and the ME, the decline of the Us gets more stark with every month.
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The progress that China is making after decades of cultural isolation and ideological persecution is nothing short of miraculous. In addition to the traditional work ethics of the chinese people, and their tendency to plan ahead and pursue their long term goals with unwavering resolution, it is evident that the Chinese government is determined to make their country the dominant economic superpower, and improve the standard of living of the citizenry by providing them with opportunities to prosper and by giving them freedoms that would have been unthinkable a couple of decades ago.
The fact that many Chinese citizens speak foreign languages should not surprise anyone. Emphasis on speaking different languages exists in many countries, not just China and it is driven not only by a commercial imperatives but by cultural priorities as well. To them, technical instruction is only a facet of cultural prowess.
Insofar as the Olympics is concerned, I am very proud of how well our athletes are performing; I just wish those from small impoverished nations would have a better chance.
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This guy certainly ain't monochrome!
At last! A friend for Marcus.;-)
ed
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Hot Gossip from Hawaii
;-)#
ed
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You really don't need to spit on the US every time you're caught praising it.
Its a huge country. Filled with lots of humans. Sometimes they screw up. I don't see why I should feel ashamed because that happens. Or how it lessens the country's accomplishments. Get some perspective. Also get both sides of the story; that article was dominated by the opinions of one set of lawyers. I don't trust a word lawyers say, their goal is to get the most cash they can from such a case.
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As an American with significant cross-cultural experience but absolutely no links to Chinese culture or heritage whatsoever, I don't think anyone is being completely fair here. The Chinese commenters, while perhaps a little excessive or harsh, are well entitled to their opinions though. Of course their perspective will be shaped by their cultural values, but if their culture values its privacy, who is anyone else to say they're wrong for that simply because our Western culture has different values? No, I don't think human rights violations and such are acceptable; but then, as one commenter pointed out, neither are torture, cynical invasions of sovereign Middle Eastern countries, nor spying on your own people in a paranoid search for terrorists. It would seem to me that we -- Americans, anyway, and I have no doubt the British have their own skeletons -- should get our own affairs in order before lecturing the Chinese.
In truth, it did seem that Mr. Reynolds attempted to make some absurd connections to socialism, and I don't understand why commenters calling him out for it are suddenly isolated, ignorant, and monochrome thinkers. And the remark that "they must be educated because they're responding in English" seems dreadfully close to implying that even the educated Chinese are idiots, which would smack of arrogant ethnocentrism, if not racism.
Justin, as I've recently started reading your blog, I've been impressed and fascinated by many of your insights, particularly as I'm going to be studying on master's course in the UK this fall. But on this one, I think you and your colleague Mr. Reynolds have got it wrong.
Best regards.
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DougTexan, distrust of our government, yes.
Loathing, no.
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Doug, ()
The same error as equating distrust of Israel with anti-semitism. In the remarks of both G'nR and Ms Marbles, it is quite clear that it is government/bureaucracy being criticised, and not my/our country or all of its folk.Salaam, etc.
ed
“Say what you like about my bloody murderous government,' I says, 'but don't insult me poor bleedin' country” -- Ed Abbey
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I am an american citizen who has been lving most of his life in venezuela and europe... not exactly the place were america's stock is loved. In spite of that, or maybe because of it, I have studied as much as I can about US foreign politics and history at large. To be honest I have seen many things that I would prefer that would have been handled different, but I have never seen any indication that the wolrd might be a better place without the USA. If at all I could point to the opposite, its American presence and power which makes it safe for the rest of the world to insult America for doing too much or too little or just using them as a convenient scapegoat (venezuela, cuba, iran, etc....)
So Allmymarbles... your ridicolous anti americanism just makes me sick. I represented the USA in Harvard's model UN 3 years ago and I was apalled by the disinformed anti americanism of much of American youth . Many of them just though that the USA was some kind of evil empire, and they were just shocked when I showed them the many beneficial programs that USAID and other US agencies do around the world. I even talked about it with the vice consul of the USA in Venezuela, about the degree of uninformed anti americanism in the USA.
As for the responses in the blog... come on guys, it's a blog... its intended to be subjective, and if you want to answer back do it in a smart way... To answer rudely at the slightest sign of disagreement with the official stance is a sure sign that you can't accept criticism. Just what Justin was talking about, and from a goverment that likes to censorship criticism it sounds just about right
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"the land of the free and the land of the brave"
I think most americans think that is a chant that only applies to the US.
Not so.
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and that is not anti americanism it is just not cheerleading for america.
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Justin again you show you superiority .
First the debate on is america accepting now a link to show just how accepting. maybe I got you wrong.
That chilling story while not unique to america shows that america is not the land it pretends when they say bring us your...riches
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Not that I need to defend myself, but...
It is precisely because I love my country that
take umbrage when our government, through
incompetence or worse, does not reflect our
values.
More than one generation in my family have
risked their lives to defend those values.
If/when our government does something awful,
it's our job to try to change things. To pretend
that the US is a perfect place is to put a blindfold
over oneself.
This is really the big difference between the
West and many other parts of the world -
we have the freedom, won through blood,
to prevent autocrats from taking over.
The minute that we close our eyes to imperfections
in our government or society at large is the
minute that we lose those freedoms.
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When I saw the headline "monochrome thinking" I thought that today's piece was going to be about the coverage in the main American media of the Georgia/Russia situation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
as 22 well puts
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Still caught up trying to visualise the 12,000 calorie diet of Michael Phelps
Cram the calories, full speed ahead!
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The world economy is always fluid and adaptibility is crucil.
Question: Has anyone notice quality control issue in their ocupation in relationship with China?
In mine, although not my company specifcly there has been
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Well Justin...
Your audience has now read how bureaucracy in the US enforces immigration law. Just imagine all the wonderful such stories you'll have if, God forbid, that same American bureaucracy expands to include running "Univeral Healthcare". US society does not function well in breeding good bureaucrats.
Mr. Ng's story is sad and tragic, however, he was in violation of US law when he overstayed his visa 17 years ago. Yes, "we" killed him. "We" killed him by permitting a lax attitude where immigration violators are concerned and in allowing employers to hire Mr. Ng with no fear of reprecussions for hiring an illegal.
Was Mr. Ng not first killed by the kindness even before he was arrested?
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well it was referred to the mods, because I was almost nice about the US?
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I will make this point. China is moving in a direction considered positive by most(away from being socialists) and becoming more liberal.
america cannot be said to be heading in the same direction.
Maybe soon they will meet right in the middle and have a cup of tea at half time.
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This is a bizzarre juxtaposition of topics. On the first, certainly horrific incidents sometimes occur in otherwise civilized societies, given their size and complexity. Remember when, in England, a Brazilian man was killed by overzealous police for no particularly good reason?
The truth will come out in a lawsuit, no doubt, and quite properly. Perhaps a substantial monetary judgment will lead to needed changes. This, by the way, is the sort of thing John Edwards specialized in as a lawyer, which leads some people (Republicans and such) to call him an "ambulance chaser." Does anyone who applies that term to Edwards agree that there are times (perhaps this case is one) where the services of a good personal-injury lawyer are called for?
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worse than that some cops thought it funny to put an asian boy in a jail with a known racist
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he was murdered
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If you rush to get concluion that China is a semi-closed society with isolation and ignorance and monochrome thinking, only by the responses in James's blog, I have to say you have isolated and ignorant thinkng as well. Remember, China has a big population, not all the people left comments in James' blog, and not all the people think in the same way.
I accept China is not as free as US, and the social system or political system is not as open as US, but China is in change to the positive direction. China never lacks talented people in the huge pool of population, and they hunger for learning from other people like US.
By the way, billions of Chinese people are studying English, but how many western people learn Chinese?
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and were tyhis a blog about the UK I would tell them their system is (pester a woman)ed up.
Welcome to america people
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On the second topic, I fail to see how basketball is a metaphor for anything except the tendency of Americans to pander to popular taste when there is money to be made. The "dunk" used to be a rules violation, but it was legitimized because the crowd liked it.
I'll stick with baseball. The same tendency exists there, but not to such an extent as to ruin the game.
Do the keepers of cricket tinker with the rules now and then in an attempt to attract a wider audience?
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gary,
I personally think it is a strange thing that in a country full of those so called AMBULANCE CHASERS that there are so few employers that seem to give a damn about Osha .
So many lawyers but some of the most unsafe work practices I have seen (in the metal industry ) .
Mining companies with truly criminal safety records, chicken product producers with people being returned to work with broken arms.
much that we hear of is because they were caught, but it shows that the lawyers are not plentiful enough, well more accurately the lawyers are too busy elsewhere to help the working class of america.
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why gary they are allowed to wear funny colours these days, not cricket at all.
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#2
With talk about American barbarism, I hope this will be explored fully:
There are so many outrageous aspects to the story that it warrants investigation and continuing coverage. Why was AFP the one to break it? Was there also UK involvement?
Just one aspect among many:
"It seems extraordinary to imagine that four U.S. agents who'd gone to pick her up — two military, two FBI — along with at least two Afghan translators, were somehow surprised by this woman, who overpowered them, grabbed a gun, flipped the safety, fired off a couple of shots, and then could only be subdued by shots to the torso," said Zarifi..
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0814/p99s01-duts.html
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#26Candace9839
Astonishing but not surprising. My youngest child was on a swim team for four years and the amount of food required by a ninety pound child just to maintain energy and body weight was a revelation to me.
Swimmers, in addition to the exercise itself, often practice and compete in water that is not optimum temperature, though perhaps Olympic pools are better heated.
We are rooting for Michael Phelps but I caution him not to kiss or lick the 'gold' medals!
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I do make the distinction that if a nation is to hold itself up as THE supporter of freedom.
The defender of democracy
and as some think THE Democracy (singular).
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then the electrorate have something to answer for.
if not can we stop lecturing others until ,as someone pointed out,we sort our own house out.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
But having been in the UK at the time even I knew GW could not read properly.
Hence the hangman of texas.
what I was not aware of was how devided liebermans loyalties were.
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I have to say I like many americans I meet.And disliked many Brits I have met.
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I find it funny that america takes so little advantage of it's freedoms.
the americans do not use their freedom as much as the rest of the world.
the press is not very free(from the run up to war evidence)
the people seem scared of everything. hence the over use of the guns they rightfully own.
"give people freedom and they will ignore it.
make them fight for it they will cherish it"
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Jacksforge
Lawyers go where they can get the most money. Litigation is an 'intellectual game' to many them. They may not understand the actual human cost and the pain of those they represent or those they argue against.
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much as the young dutch people do not smoke pot like the rest of the west.
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there did that bore you enough mr refer to the mods.
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I think that my #40 could get censored because I made reference to perhaps an overuse of lead. This could all be a joke!
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My comment did post!
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Justin Webb
I have been reading James Reynold's blog from time to time. I think that many who post there are just defending their country and their culture. Many take pride in what has been accomplished and want to conduct their own affairs in a way that supports their own unique cultural history.
Is this wrong? Can we not allow others to do what seems best to them? It is always easy to criticize when we are not walking in the other person's shoes?
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ref 37
I actually agree with you on OSHA and certain industries do try to go around it.
I blame the inneficency of OSHA for part of it, not unique in the federal and state goverments.
But there are certain lawyers like the one who sued McDonald because his client put a hot coffee between her kees while driving; who are ambulance chasers.
I would include Edwards in that category
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Osha is not exclusive in the west for being usless . coshe is next to useless.
the biggest criminals are 3m and those that provide so called breathing masks etc.
in most industry the masks are cheap throw away masks that fit only a few and certainly no one with facial hair.And what's more work only a bit better than the hanky/ bandana approach.
But 3m etc provide them and the workers must use them so the boss feels like that works good for him.
As some one who is a specky four eyes I find most masks and all safety glasses useless, if not down right dangerous.
There are systems available for welders -auto darkening hoods with breather packs- for $1500 or a cheap paper mask not appropriate for the fumes and a cheap 50 buck harbour freight helmet.
And no health care.
the lawyers have failed.
But industry gets away with it because the Big boys can afford more lawyers
Mc donalds case yea it is not the judgement at fault so much as the payout.
The dubios case I think is classic is when the burgler fell over the coffee table and sued.
now that was a weird one.
as to J Ed being an amulance chaser , i'm not so sure but I never followed him.
Glad to see some common ground.
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BTW that is why we sold all the manufacturing to china.
so the top could avoid the workers rights and enviromental rights , and now we are exposed to the situation that if russia cut off georgia (and it's pipe line) and china said no more exports to US, would we be able to out wait them .
o r would we go ballistic.
They only need us so much. there is a whole world out there ready to buy even more than the americans given the chance.
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Here's the answer to my cricket question:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20000823/ai_n14330833
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sry btw driving with hot drinks between your legs is as Majickirkin suggests very stupid.
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28, Mike.
The terrible thing about immigration detention is the length of time they keep the aliens locked up. Why not deport them or turn them loose with dispatch? These people are in jail, yet they are not criminals in the usual sense.
There is one young man I know (related by marriage) who has been in this country since he was three years old. The parents are legal aliens. When he turned 21 he was supposed to register on his own. Either he didn't know that, or he was negligent. He has been in detention for months. We notified the authorities that we were prepared to provide him with an airline ticket to leave the country. He is still in jail.
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Jacksforge and Magickirin
I so agree with you both but it seems to me that whenever we try to limit how lawyers can bring nuisance suits such as that Mcdonald's thing and the clumsy burgler you mentioned, the people who get hurt are ordinary people trying to sue big business for abuses in the workplace or drug companies who don't care what poison they market. I could go on.
I don't know what the answer is, but as I said before, I think many lawyers consider law to be an 'intellectual game' not something that can seriously effect the lives of ordinary people. It may boil down to ethics and character, two concepts that may not apply.
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I guess anyone who does not subscribe to our way of life is ignorant, backward and stupid. Why can't the Chinese be Chinese?
I would like to read unedited comments by the Chinese telling us what they think of us.
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#58Allmymarbles
I am so sorry about your young relative. Our current immigration practice is despicable!
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#39
Is it of no interest to this Forum
or to the BBC?
The issues are horrendous!
[Perhaps it ties in with the comments about lawyers and "legalism", America may no longer have any moral compass.]
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xie it is of interest but unfortunately it seems to be all too common there days with the bogus war on terror.
It does seem as if the judiciary(who I do not have much trust in ,may find that they disagree with the white house again. for it is the white house that seems to be most corrupt these days.
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"Jacksforge and Magickirin
I so agree with you both "
Aqua
I am suprised to see that, not the fact that you agree with the point just that we two would be together in that comment, though it is not the first and will not be the last time I agree with Majickirin
I suspect he has earned his money the hard way before.
(by that I mean on the" shop floor")
Immigration is a hot topic everywhere, unfortunately.
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To Marbles...
Sorry about your relative -- but I have to wonder why anyone raised in the US would allow their status to go unsecured if they truly wanted to stay here.
In my Highschool growing up, the counselors made a point of counselling non-us citizens as they approached their 18th birthday on this very subject. I doubt your relative was ignorant of his status.
If someone does not follow the law, that person must be prepared to face the consequences. Frankly if your relative was employed it was done illegally. If he used a false SS# that too was also a crime.
Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime every year millions of Americans learn their Social Security Number has been highjacked by an illegal. Credit ratings are destroyed. Billions of dollars in lost productivity, earnings and an damages are caused by "hardworking" illegal aliens who supposedly are not "criminals".
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mike lLL
join the real world it does exist
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65, Mike.
There is no doubt that the boy was remiss and that it was within the rights of immigration to deport him.
What I do object to is that immigration does not resolve this case, and others, expeditiously. People who have committed no crime, other than being an illegal alien, are being held in prison for indefinite periods of time.
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O my God! That's an absolutely truely awful story! But the worst part of it was that this has happened to countless other people, and only now is the congress investagating it and making laws to insure it doesn't happen again!! If his had happened only once in any other western country on earth, you can bet your bottom dollar that the perpatrators would've been fired, and the laws regarding it immediately changed/inactted ASAP!! What is wrong with us!? No wonder we have 3 friends in the international comunity!! O, and 'allmymarbles, I agree with you on the imigration custums reforms...just warn them, make them apply for whatever they need to apply for on the spot, or deport them!! Does any other western country hold people in jale for not renewing passport/green card equivalents? I'm serious I'd really like to know.
gunsandreligion #3 rites, '"Ms. Marbles, this may surprise you, but we have the worst bureaucracy in the world, which is why Americans are largely distrustful of their government."
Really? I thought it was because of the way the nation was set up by the founders; they feared the same eventual (percieved) control by a president of the people that they witnessed saposidly exerted by king George III of England, so they delibrately gave government the least amount of control over people's affairs that it could have without causing it to collapse. And I thought that this distrust just naturally carried on through the generations. Am I wrong? And "the worst burocracy in the world?" Are you determining this soly based upon the American people's "distrust" of their government? Or is it based on something else? I honestly have to say, although certain government departments are horably corrupt, surely there are other burocracies that are just as bad as ours (some segments of the EU head corters in Brussles), or even worss (some governments in Africa), right? Saying that ours is the "worst" hands down without backing it up with trustable evidence seems a bit hasty to me.
"The only difference between the US and authoritarian regimes is that we have the internet and (somewhat) free press to expose these excesses."
"Somewhat" free press? What do you mean? Please elaborate. Do you think that the government pressures journalists when they fear certain things being reported on? Do you just simply think its the journalist's fault for not being ruthless and harsh enough when trying to find the truth about a story? This in particular is extremely worrying to me!!
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Regarding the Chinese comments on the basketball, come now Justin! The Chinese are just vigarously defending what they view to be bias and unfair reporting on China (in this case unfair atacks on China) just as what the majority of foreigners seem to post on your blog regarding what they see as your having "gone native" and being "wrapped up in the American flag" and "singing America's praises" whenever you point out something positive in this country that's all. Ignorance knows no nationality!!
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That's a pretty judgemental assessment, Justin - "these semi-closed societies" you sound like an imperial officer surveying India - it's a sweeping statement based on assumption - of what worth is your comment? I could find better in the Daily Mail (ok, maybe that's a tad harsh)
and have you seen the things Brits and Americans write on BBC comments pages? We're all BNP supporters and every american is an overweight gun-toting redneck if you follow your logic
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marbles
one reason many are not deported back is because the powers that be are worried that if they do send them back , and there is a real legitimate reason for them to fear their own country, then they will be accused of being responsible for the death.
Which they would be.
some suggest way more immigration officials at the embassies abroad. process the claims before they migrate.
in you relatives case I think they were just"well outta order"
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i agree no rash , but if we have to blame it on the rulers because the people get offended if we suggest it is their responsibillity.
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jf #45
"I have to say I like many americans I meet.And disliked many Brits I have met."
Funny, I've had the same experience.
The Redcoats are coming, the Redcoats are coming. biddddip
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73, mucus erroneous.
Does that also mean you have disliked many Americans you have met and liked many Brits that you met?
Altogether a rather ambiguous statement on your part, not typical of your usual ranting, but just as ditsy. Are you on withdrawal?
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mablelostallyourmarbles;
I recommend that you reread it again as many times as you have to until you understand it. It is quite explicit, I don't know why you are having trouble with it.
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we have something in common mostly.
but I have also disliked so many americans I am still hardly a ameriphile.
And I have liked so many brits that I may be anglophile.
They are all the same. people Either the offspring of horsesand donkeys or not.
And you for sure are one of the animal breeding experiments.
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you must be monochromasonic
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78, Jack.
Right now, as houseguests, I have an Englishman from London and an Irishman from Dublin. There is no major difference between them and anyone from a large city in America.
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mablelostallhermarbles #81
So what are you saying, all men are alike? Women, cheeesh.
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Ms Marbles,
Just out of interest, which is more of a drunk?
Slainte/Cheers!
ed
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81 marbles yes it is hard for some to accept that the human race are all humans, without exception, even the MA of the world.(still not sure he is human though)
it is the cities that do it to you.:)
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Mable, another witty comment of mine bites the dust. I hope you had a chance to enjoy it while it was still there.
I wonder if BBC moderators are so dense and BBC is so dumbed down that they will not permit posting of a line from Nowell Coward's 1931 song "only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun."
Some say Brits have a "dry" sense of humor. I say it's dried up to the point where it is more sere and withered away than a rose in the Sahara desert.
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ma there was no wit. yuo are not really very witty. more pithy.
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Actually jf, I only complained about one post so far and it was removed. It wasn't yours. I wouldn't delete the material you give me to poke fun at you for the world. There's so much of it to choose from.
I never called anyone a whore. That was a conclusion you jumped to. I just asked if a certain someone was renting out rooms. You clearly have a dirty little mind.
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82, staphylococcus aureus.
I am speak intellectually, something you would not understand.
83, Ed.
I know the Irishman is not a drunk. I can't answer for the Englishman. I will keep you informed.
85, Jack.
S. aureus seems to be a pre-human (I am feeling generous). In a few thousand years he might catch up to the rest of us.
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mablelostallhermarbles;
"82, staphylococcus aureus.
I am speak intellectually"
So I see :-)
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mablelostallhermarbles;
"85, Jack.
S. aureus seems to be a pre-human (I am feeling generous). In a few thousand years he might catch up to the rest of us."
I can't wait around that long. Take me now Mable! Hahahahahahaha.
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92, staph. aureus.
You have proven our point.
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Of the opinion that the_big_tamale (18) hits the figurative nail on the head.
What's so bad about the Chinese responses is not that they oppose James Reynold's views, but that they do so in an extraordinarily rude fashion. They don't attack the argument; they attack James. (And yes, Americans also do that to each other--you can see that in this blog, in fact, but that behavior is not nearly as prevalent on this blog [or the Australian or European ones] as on the Chinese one.) There are actually a few Chinese responders who don't toe the line of their countrymen.
The Chinese do seem similar to Americans in that even those who criticize their country do so out of a valid or misguided wish to advance their country's development, not because they hate their homeland. And, again as the_big_tamale posted, many Americans--primarily on the left of the political spectrum (by American standards)--tend to be a little too harsh on their own country. The United States is far from perfect, but is still considerably ahead of China in the human rights department.
------
As a 'small' aside about Dominck_Vila's first post, China's rapid economic growth is impressive, but isn't miraculous. The authoritarian government allows for a rapid laying down of new roads, buildings, nuclear power plants, etc. (no successful protesting about people being removed from homes, potential radiation leaks from nuclear plants, cancer and asthma from excessive pollution) and building a strong manufacturing base. The massive size of the Chinese population practically guarantees that China will be a magnet for foreign direct investment--such a huge market makes many investors practically slobber over the potential. Adding to this, the big market and industrial/road/power capability, is the authoritarian government's ability to censor information and prevent news of protests and rioting reaching the outside world (or other parts of the country), which gives the world the perception that China is stable and orderly--and therefore a good environment in which to do business. China has a considerable numbers of riots each year around the country, potentially more than many democratic 'third world' countries, and yet appears to foreigners to be less of an investment risk than the democratic countries.
For these reasons, personally hold the opinion that authoritarianism is a must for developing countries if they want to reach developed status. After reaching that point, hopefully they'll pick up democratic government, but before then, democracy is actually detrimental to development, and could actually prevent a country from ever becoming developed, largely because new roads, power plants, factories, etc. can't be laid down fast enough before they need to be replaced or upgraded because they were hindered by democratic opposition. Such could be the case for Latin America and the fate of other developing country democracies. There could be some barrier which only an authoritarian government has the strength of shattering. Democracy is government by the people, or the people rule. Rulers should be wise and not ignorant. Unfortunately in many developing countries, the average citizen does not have access to all that much information, and cannot be expected to make informed and reasonable decisions, and yet are--because their countries are democratic.
Which brings up India. Marcus-Aurelius 2, aware that you are particularly sympathetic with India, so just pointing out that this is not to demonstrate antagonism for India. Personally hold similar sympathies for the Philippines, yet many of India's flaws are mirrored in that country, too.
Anyway, India is a democratically governed country with the second largest population on Earth, and one set to overtake China. India's potential can easily rival that of China's. That stated, Indian democracy has led to protests and rioting which have retarded construction and investment development. Even with the massive 'market magnet' second only to China, India receives considerably less FDI than China. This is in part due to freedom of the press, which shows the world the real India, with the protests and riots, and seeming instability, whereas Chinese media largely shows the fantasy of a purely calm and structured People's Republic. Because the average Indian has to work hard, and has relatively little access to information, many Indian just vote famous or populist people into office (as a Californian, can't be too critical lest there be hypocrisy... :-D), which has led to political dynasties who work to their own interest, and not in the interest of India. These bad and inept politicians (actually the current prime minister is decent) govern the country poorly, further retarding development. And, as the figures show, India is far behind China in terms of economic development.
This is tough, but the United States should adopt a more Chinese Westphalian outlook when dealing with foreign countries, and shouldn't promote democracy in developing countries even if there are huge human rights abuses. So long as the authoritarian model doesn't threaten the democratic model in countries which choose that form of government, as was the case in the Cold War, there should be a live-and-let-live attitude.
------
Yep, wasn't a 'small' aside at all.
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mablelostallhermarbles
"92, staph. aureus.
You have proven our point."
The ones on the tops of your heads?
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Anonymous Californian #94
Me sympathetic to India? You must be joking. What ever gave you that idea? India was a former close ally of the USSR. It treats most women worse than property. Women in much of India are murdered with impunity and the government does nothing about it. It has a cast system which relegates hundreds of millions to being treated as sub-human. It is split along religious lines, there is nothing less than a religious civil war going on there. A significant portion of the population is entering the middle class but as in China, the overhwelming majority are locked in hopeless poverty with no way out. BBC's recent programs about India prove that it is sacrificing its environment and agricultural land for short term profit and development every bit as much as China is. As a result, life expectancy will be short. On the whole despite its exotic and largely unknown culture and history, it is a primitive place with small occasional pockets of wealth and high technology. That will not save it. It's long term future outlook like China's is very bleak. It cannot sustain its growth of the recent past for a whole lot longer anymore than China can. A backward ignorant people, far too many living there for its geographical area, a place for Western industry to exploit for the moment and when it is past its usefulness, to move on.
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I read the James Reynolds article and the comments that are meant to show the continuing one sided nature of information iin that society. Once again Justin you show a distinct bias. You say the Chinese articles show the worst of China. I also read the 'Hillary' article and the comments just a few items down from a person who claimed to have two masters degrees and yet was clearly bitter and his language was very questionable that clearly showed that if all one has is Fox news then ones bitter twisted ideas are not going to any more fair and balanced than Chinese who have state run media . So what does that say about educated Americans and educated Chinese? They can all have blinkered biased opinions, but the Chinese have better English and are less likely to use words like democ**p.
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"bbc recent programs about india"
what the bbc I thought yuo (mostly erronious) said that they are crapusless etc.
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#94
It is to your point that I should declare that I have been banned by only three boards:
a) A Roman Catholic seminary.
b) A CCP front masquerading as a cultural blog about China.
c) a BJP front doing a similar pretense in India.
It should be evident to all that it is the ideas and arguments, not the presentation, that is found intolerable.
[As to China, I say "give it time".]
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83, Ed.
As to my Irish and English houseguests, you wanted to know who was the bigger drunk.
The pair went out for a night on the town yesterday and returned home late, sozzled and leaking fumes. The Englishman went off to bed and the Irishman stayed up a while, feeling a little out out-of-sorts.
He drank as much as he did, he said, to keep his friend company, and that he was normally a very light drinker, so it went to his head.
Work it out, if you can.
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#100
Irishmen are practiced in humorous lying and frequently "fall among evil companions"
Since this one did not have another drink at home (?), he could be telling the truth.
The Englisman acted as expected.
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Justin Webb says: "just read some of these comments from educated Chinese people in response to my colleague James Reynolds' perfectly reasonable observations on aspects of Chinese sport (they must be educated because they are responding in English) and you get a picture of the isolation and ignorance and monochrome thinking that these semi-closed societies engender. Modern economies require flexibility and free-thinking; I do not see it in many of James' blog responses."
What nonsense! And arguably racist nonsense, at that. Sure, Chinese viewpoints can often seem a bit brainwashed, but spend a few minutes reading Have Your Say: can you honestly say that your average British or American poster exhibits any more flexibility or free thinking?
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re monochrome thinking v perfectly reasonable observations
James was not writing simply observations. He wrote a potted history of the slam dunk. I haven't a clue if he is factually right, (I sincerely hope he has got the facts correct).
The monochrome thinking, however, is in the eye of the beholder - unless you sincerely believe that 'educated' and internationally-minded contributors to James' BBC blog are the product of isolation and ignorance.
Free thinkers may not always agree over interpretation, but we can see colour when it is beautiful.
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Ms Marbles, (an' a'), A Scottish view on sic matters,
Slainte!ed
;-)
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Heaven knows I'm no promoter of the US system - or of my own country's craven support for it.
But Justin is making a perfectly valid point.
The reason that he (and I) consider the Chinese system less eligible than the western one, is that while we all have problems, in the west we are free (well, freer anyway) to air our concerns. And that surely is halfway to solving them.
So - Justin compares a tragic story of neglect in America is with censorship in China. The tragedy is of the same quality, no doubt, but we at least can protest against it.
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105, Wookie.
Have you ever lived under the Chinese system. Reading about it, possibly from parties with their own bias, is not good enough.
Certainly the media, and the government, have totally misrepresented countries I have lived in. In fact their descriptions make me think that they have gotten the name of the country wrong. That is how far from reality they were.
People with different cultural patterns require different sorts of governments and have a different idea of what freedom means. Given the extreme conformity of the West, I was class it as a lot less free than it thinks it is.
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"(they must be educated because they are responding in English) and you get a picture of the isolation and ignorance and monochrome thinking that these semi-closed societies engender"
WOW!
expect this sort of thinking on the streets!
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106, allmymarbles.
Hasn't anyone ever told you?
Let the wookie win.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
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