Joe Biden's speech - live
I'm going to be commenting on Joe Biden's convention speech live, so keep refreshing your page!
20.19 (Mountain time): As we watch the biographical video ahead of the big speech, it's interesting that the talk of kids and grandkids segues into his foreign policy experience faster than you can say gravitas...
20.30: Pitch perfect opening - the praise for his son is especially moving when you think of their early life.
20.40: He's managed now - with well-chosen words about people struggling with the economy - to do what few other speakers have been able to do: speak directly to Americans in trouble. That's what the Democrats have to do and have not been doing so far.
20.46: "That's not change, that's more of the same" - a slogan about John McCain he's now repeated about 10 times. This is the message the Democrats need to get out to the rest of the country.
20.48: He's defining what "change" means - affordable healthcare, affordable education, more cops on the street. Never mind "change you can believe in", this is change people can grasp.
20.51: Daring line there on foreign policy - "John McCain was wrong and Barack Obama was right" on troops to Afghanistan and other recent foreign policy controversies.
20.54: That final line - "God bless America and God bless our troops". He used it at the end of his first speech as Obama's running-mate. For Barack Obama to have a running-mate who can say that - and sound convincing - is a tremendous asset to the ticket.
Conclusion: Joe Biden proved in his speech (it's well worth reading the transcript by the way) that this ticket will have bite as well as cool - and it may just be the bite that wins it.
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~00~RS~)
Comments
Truly inspirational.
I think it was a great idea to have his military son introduce him and allude to the fact that he is being sent to Iraq soon so won't be around to help his father campaign.
Obama's 'surprise' entrance at the end of the Biden speech was a great end to a great night at the convention. The crowd were electrified.
I can't wait for tomorrow!
MKJones
www.englandforobama.com
Complain about this comment
There was somethng over the years about Biden that seems familiar . I wasnt quite sure what it was until I heard about his backround . My God ! He's one of us , an American from the working/ middle class .
He actually worked his way up the ladder like so many of us with parents that had earned the American Dream the hard way . no entitlements nor preference just sheer spunk.
he is one of the ones that went to school at night and held jobs at the same time, serve in the national guard or reserves for love of country and a few dollars toward the tuition bill, attended the thousands of Universities that unless you live in the area you may not recognize- one of the ones that took the subway or train to get home at night .
Joe is everyman , The type so often not heard from in recent years . Maybe there is some change that we might get it right
Complain about this comment
I hate to put a damper on all the celebration, but why does virtually every politician call on the deity? "God bless America and God bless our troops" is but just one example and it seems quite unnecessary to me, especially in a time when "God" is not the same one for all voters. Irving Berlin's song is a wonderful piece of schmaltzy patriotism, much like the British singing of 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Rule Britannia', but the sentiment behind it came from a different time and today that sentiment seems rather out-of-place, especially at a political convention. One wouldn't have heard Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher or even Winston Churchill exhort "God" to come to the aid of or protect British troops or the scepter'd isle. Considering the recent calamities that have befallen America, I'm not so sure that God, if there is such an entity, is actually on anyone's side, or the horrors of war, bombings and disease would not be inflicted on us.
Complain about this comment
3 DC
because it's a nation one people under God.
Sorry I didn't make the rules.
Good on those clintons, they did alright.
Eventually.;)
but seriously she had no choice unless she wanted to prove she was a brat.
She didn't so I will not call her a brat for a while.
Like I said in the last topic, that Biden , he's real articulate.
Complain about this comment
#3, David_C,
Here's a little secret: on our currency, it says "In God
We Trust", but there is also another phrase written in
invisible ink: "All Others Pay Cash."
(Thanks to Gene Sheppard for this one.)
Complain about this comment
I hate to put a damper on your atheism, but most politicians AND most military personnel DO want to accept God in their lives. And while NO ONE has the same relationship with God (just like you and your siblings have different relationships with your parents), God is the same one for all CREATURES. Furthermore, because of the recent calamities that have befallen the United States, the Americas, AS WELL AS the world, God is wanting us to unite and strange as it may sound, "calamities" have a way of bringing people together and pointing out how much we really do have in common. THIS is what God wants...for all his children (no matter their differences) to finally discover their commonalities and find joy in each other. To quote a bumper sticker my father saw once and now quotes all the time, "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." May peace and God's love be with you always.
Complain about this comment
Justin:
"20.40: He's managed now - with well-chosen words about people struggling with the economy - to do what few other speakers have been able to do: speak directly to Americans in trouble. That's what the Democrats have to do and have not been doing so far."
Huh??
The Democrats have been pandering for decades. To listen to them talk n Denver one might think the US was more like Belarus and on the verge of needing a good old-fashioned revolution.
For the Dems the last 50 years it's been the same: Promise everything -- then disappoint and blame it on the other guys.
Complain about this comment
Sorry to pop your balloon JUSTIN and everyone else --
But two of the last four national elections have been decided by "protest voters".
First in 1992 with Ross Perot getting Bill Clinton elected with fewer votes than any president in modern US history -- and then in Florida in 2000 with Ralph Nader getting Bush elected.
The stage is now set for this to happen again.
Hillary's more hardcore supporters who are now saying they will vote for McCain -- especially in swing states like Michigan and Florida where their votes literally did not count -- are a very serious threat to Obama.
Democrats and Socialists: Enjoy the party today -- for tomorrow (November) you will lose.
Complain about this comment
#7, MikeIL, you mean we're not in Belarus?
What are those Russian tanks doing outside my window?
Complain about this comment
FYI to people outside the US...
More Americans attend worship on one Sunday in the US than all people who attend all professional sporting events throughout the entire year here.
Yes, maybe God has abandoned us. But Americans have not abandoned God -- at least not when compared to you superiorly superficial Euro-types.
God Bless.
Complain about this comment
"Conclusion: Joe Biden proved in his speech (it's well worth reading the transcript, by the way) that this ticket will have bite as well as cool - and it may just be the bite that wins it.'
So Biden was brought on to be the attack dog?
Where is the "Change" in that?
Is this part of Obama's plan to brings "civility" to the campaign as he promised?
While we are at it -- when are we going to hear the details and learn what exactly the Dems are threatening to bring the US?
Complain about this comment
10, MikeII.
Your figures don't mean much to someone who doesn't follow sports. From what I hear, though, most people watch sports on television.
Just for the record, my city is known as the "Graveyard of Preachers."
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Have you forgotten so soon that it was only a few months ago that the same Joe Biden said Barack Obama was not qualified to be President of the United States? Was he lying then or is he lying now? Who did he get to write his speech now that he was caught plagiarizing Neil Kinnock?
"It was a very long time ago when Biden first ran for President in the 1987/1988 presidential race. He was forced to exit the race in shame when disturbing plagiarism charges were proven against him amid charges of lying."
"What launched the public inquiry into Joe Biden’s words was a debate in September 1987 in which Biden stole the words of Neil Kinnock who was head of the British Labour Party."
"Neil Kinnock had said earlier: “Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university?” He then pointed to his wife in the audience and said “Why is Glenys the first woman in her family in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Was it because all our predecessors were thick?”"
"Joe Biden said during debate: “I started thinking as I was coming over here, why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go to a university?” He pointed to his wife in the audience and said “Why is it that my wife who is sitting out there in the audience is the first in her family to ever go to college? Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? Is it because I’m the first Biden in a thousand generations to get a college and a graduate degree that I was smarter than the rest?”"
Obama and Biden, what a pair of frauds. Birds of a feather.
Complain about this comment
Biden was good - and in fluffing his words a few times he came across as human but not a threat to Obama's presidential speaking skills.
I urge all readers to watch John Kerry's speech. He came on alive - yes, really !
Complain about this comment
I thought I was interesting to see Bill Clinton give a complete endorsement of Obama. He seemed sincere - but then Bill always could fake sincerity.
Regarding the role call of states - sounds more like the eurovision song contest - any chance of Terry Wogan contributing to the blog? I'm sure there are plenty of Abba lyrics suitable for the Obama - Hillary contest.
"Waterloo Wa Wa Wa Waterloo - she's finally facing her Waterloo..."
"The winner takes it all, the loser has to fall.."
Still in making her request to aclaim Obama the nominee perhaps she's a "super trooper" after all.
an maybe, just maybe, Bill is at a covention party saying "voulez vous...?"
You're all doing very well !!
Complain about this comment
In an unrelated developement this story appeared on the bbc..."Parts of a giant, exquisitely carved marble sculpture depicting the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius have been found at an archaeological site in Turkey.
Fragments of the statue were unearthed at the ancient city of Sagalassos. "
Is there any truth in the rumour that the statue appeared to have moved closer to the surface due to it having recently begun to rotate underground?
You're all doing very well !!
Complain about this comment
When it comes to campagning for the presidency...the Republicans are geniuses. I mean they manage to undermine the Democrats by saying that their candidate is lacking experience!And the democrats are silly enough to play to those fears...by appointing somebody who has grey hair and looks wise(Biden)but still exuding a feel of lack of confidence. I mean who the heck was asking about experience when George Bush Jr was getting elected?Nobody...No the Republicans had managed to make the main issue of the campagne about who was the best family man(and George Bush won on that). Basically they(the Republicans) always manage to portray the strenghts of their candidate as the strenghts needed and the Democrats try and play along with that(to their detriment).
Complain about this comment
I sincerely hope that Obabma wins the presidency but don't Americans realise how ridiculous they look to the rest of the world when they call upon god to bless this or that?
How can any decent god bless their troops when they are slaughtering innocent Iraqis? How can any decent god bless America when the richest country on earth undermines democratically elected governments in poorer countries and wont even provide proper healthcare for all of its own citizens? How can any decent god bless a country that ritually kills its own citizens by judicial murder?... the list goes on.
The are many good things about America and I hope that Obama can amplify and encourage them whilst controlling the bigotry and jingoism that lies beneath the surface.
Complain about this comment
I think with that Speech Joe Biden showed John McCain he can't pick some rookie to debate him. He probably just single handedly killed Pawlenty's and Jindal's chances as well as maybe Romney's and Crist's.
Joe Biden is an excellent speaker and many people have described that speech as an off night. All of the attacks on Democrat's patriotism stops tonight otherwise the Republicans are going to get hammered.
While Obama didn't have the immunity from criticism of his love of country, no one can seriously question Joe Biden's.
Complain about this comment
Jack & LawChicago,
And the real article! The least wealthy man in the Senate, and damned near the least wealthy in the whole legislature, and it obviously ain't because he's stupid. I think Jimmy Carter may have some competition as the most honest man to get within a mile of the White House.As to God, the founders all acknowledged that Humans are subject to Nature, under whatever name. "God" or "the Creator" or "the Father" or "Providence" are all generic, and without direct "Christian" connotations. Virtually all the Founders were essentially Deists, and, as is well known, adamant about the separation of "Church" and State.
There is no harm, and a great deal of good in a bit of humility - recognising our good fortune and invoking the hope of more. We have had quite enough of its opposite, "Chutzpah", Hubris, or simply Pride (The Patriarch of the Sin Tribe)
Humble ed
Complain about this comment
MikeIL,
Surely you haven't missed THIS, but I expect it's easier to snipe without bothering...Windoze will even read it aloud to you, if you can't be bothered, and if you're insomniac, ask it to read McCaint's equivalent, or just listen ;-)Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Destiny
Back to the future!
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
voltaire, you make some good points. The GOP know how to set the agenda and unfortunately Hillary has given them a lot of ammo with her comments during the primary.
However, Obama's huge money advantage will kick in soon so we should see many more anti-McCain attack ads in September and October.
Karl Rove thinks he can pull this out again, but he's up against it. Obama is no Dukakis. He's a ruthless Chicago machine politician and Biden is an attack-dog who speaks the language of the common man.
He is Joe Sixpack in a nice suit. He proved last night that he can hit the Reps where it hurts, with simple hard-hitting soundbites that look good on TV news bulletins.
Complain about this comment
What a joke. McCain doesnt need to mention that his sons are in Iraq because everyone knows he is a patriot.
And for Biden to "claim" that Barrack was right about Iraq while McCain was wrong is just stupid and will only appeal to the base. Every sane person knows that McCain proposed the surge (which Biden and B. Hussian Obama opposed) and it's the surge that has won the war. America is now withdrawing troops in Iraq because of Mccains victory. There is a big difference between withdrawing with honour and unconditional surrender but i doubt the dems know that.
Complain about this comment
David (3),
I wouldn't be so sure about al Toady (Blair), who has just converted to Roman Catholicism...And, there is this minor matter in British practice: A perspective on piety, humility, and religious freedom, and the relationship between "Church" and "State", from My Great(n) Uncle George, who also was a farmer ;-)May you enjoy God's Peace and Blessings.
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Ref 3
As an agnostic I could not agree with you more, but I think it is important to remember that the USA remains a deeply religious nation, and that while we tolerate other faiths the dominant religion is Christian.
Politicians of both parties are acutely aware of this reality and exploit it by emphasizing their religous convictions as often as they can in an attempt to attract votes.
The most dramatic development on this subject during this presidential campaign is not the invocations to divine intervention that all the candidates make, but McCain cynically courting the "agents of intolerance".
Complain about this comment
I read a statistic that about 75% (if memory serves) of Americans say that they are Christian (i.e. with a capital 'C'). This is actually a higher percentage than the percentage of the population of Israel that is Jewish.
As a Buddhist, who was brought up in the Church of England (the default setting) I do find this overt display of Christianity troubling given the history, including very recent, of intolerance. But I live in the US and so I know that the majority of these Christians are not intolerant fundamentalists, as with many other religions those are the minority.
The greatest strength of this group is its call to service and charity at the personal level. Unfortunately the country as a whole, contrary to common perception, does not follow this principle, for example ranking about 99th in per capita foreign aid to devloping nations. All part of the complex place that is America.
Complain about this comment
ref #20
I don't think Biden is a great debater, more of a blow hard and very easy to catch off guard.
Romney would wipe the floor with him in a debate.
As far as the attack dog role, that is what VP canidates usually do.
That is why Edwards was such a dud and even though Dukakis lost Benson was so good.
Complain about this comment
Thing is, in a fairly short time this will all be forgotten. The positive and negative campaigning will have started in earnest.
This would only have been an important event if they had got it wrong, in which case it would have been replayed endlessly.
Even the policies do not matter that much. In reality, they cannot be that different when they are realised. Whoever is elected will be quite severely restricted financially by world recession / postrecession / recovery.
They are both offering tax cuts and that will severely hamper their room for manoeuvre on anything else. A lot of money just vanished from the world economy, resources are in short supply and these are not things that will go away soon.
The war in Iraq is reaching a natural conclusion and both men will probably do the same things in its endgame, not least because they will want to stop the outflow of federal money and they will want to avoid some disgruntled general going to the media saying they cost lives.
I am not suggesting that their inclinations are the same - anything but - but they are both politicians in a time of limited opportunity for change.
The main foreign policy problem looks like being Russia for a while. That is not funny but again, I doubt their responses will be all that different. They are constrained by political, economic and military circumstances outside their control. There will be some shoving, though...
The 2012 election may be much more meaningful.
Complain about this comment
We may get the opportunity to see whether you're right...;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Biden's mother seems quite an impressive lady, and his son Beau gave him a great introduction. Of course God would be mentioned seeing as he's Catholic, and I liked a previous comment of his about how if another Republican questioned his being religious he would shove his rosary down their throat.
Complain about this comment
#26 Ed_Iglehart
Do you not live in Scotland ? I am surprised you left out the Scotbashing verse.
Perhaps the USA could do with a woman president along the lines of Elizabeth the first "There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith. All else is a dispute over trifles"
Or perhaps the puritan Oliver Cromwell, who wanted the Jews back in England in 1656.
All religions are inspiring when they are tolerant. Bigotry is the thing to despise.
Complain about this comment
Re:#15. Kerry gave a wonderful speech.
Complain about this comment
I find it funny how, when asked about former criticisms of Obama, his former competitors (or their cronies) dance around the question and point to a speech. "Listen to that speech! Did that not answer your question!!?" No. I'm reasonable. I know they may not have actually thought he was unfit to be President, but why can't they say "Honestly, I just said it because I thought it was the best strategy at the time."?
Complain about this comment
ref #31
It could happen but there are several negatives:
1. McCain does not like Romney
2. There is a Morman prejudice in America
3. Bad Karma from Mass, although Romney is far more accomplished than Kerry or Dukakis; Mass politicians have not done well in national elections
Complain about this comment
Re Post 31,
Ed have you heard any rumours about the McCain VP pick?
Re your previous post on the frozen spud products - would that make McCain "Mr Potato Head"? If McCain loses will it be "Good-bye Mr Chips"?
You were quite right to miss out the anti-scot verse. Th UK anthem is appaling and a new one should be chosen.
You're all doing very well !!
Complain about this comment
Chill.
Indeed, but I was doing God's work, not Scotland's...;-)Salaam, etc.
ed
P.S. I particularly like,
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
Complain about this comment
Young Mr Grace,
I certainly hope so, and good riddance! Time for a quiet retirement in whichever home he wishes.I have no rumours (and little interest) regarding his VP candidate, and I reckon the betting odds have it about right (three to two for Obama/Biden). The more I learn about Biden, the more I like him, and I already like Obama a lot.
We live in Hope, in the absence of which (as several have noted), it is Hell.
Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
("a common Arabic greeting" meaning
"Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you", for the benefit of the Mods (who are as Gods))
ed
Complain about this comment
Ref 25
"There is a big difference between withdrawing with honour and unconditional surrender but i doubt the dems know that".
What is not a joke is the fact that most Americans, indeed, most citizens of the world, understand that the decision to attack and invade Iraq was not driven by a threat to our national security but by geo-political and economic priorities. We also understand that there is no moral justificaton for our presence in that country. Over 4,200 American soldiers have been killed and tens of thousands have been maimed to satisfy the goals of a pervasive minority whose aim has nothing to do with what is best for the American people but what is best for our special interests.
The recent "successes" in Iraq, if anyone is so naive as to consider the strategic decision made by Moqtada al-Sadr and others to lay low a success, is not the result of the so- called surge but the decision to put the Sunni insurgents we were fighting on our payroll.
Our presence in Iraq is not only morally wrong, it is counterproductive as it has allowed our real enemies, a terrorist group called Al Qaeda, to regroup and become more dangerous than ever.
I find it disturbing that there are still people who refuse to recognize the fallacy of focusing on a hapless developing country to advance our interests throughout the Middle East, while we ignore our moral obligation to bring those responsible for 9/11 to justice. I am enraged by the decision made by the Bush Administration, with the full support of Sen. McCain, to declare Saudi Arabia a Most Favored Nation for trade purposes. If there is one country that could be linked to 9/11 that country is Saudi Arabia, the homeland of Osama bin Laden, most of the terrorists that attacked us, and the financiers and planners of that dreadful event.
Complain about this comment
Justin,
Would you explain the lack of interest that the BBC, especially your Blog, show for the candidacy of Sen. John McCain?
Even though I disagree with Sen. McCain's domestic and foreign policy proposals, judging by recent polls, there is a very good chance that he may be the next President of the USA.
In the interest of fair play, and relevance should he win the election, topics such as McCain's picks for the VP spot should be given the same exposure that has been afforded to Obama.
On that topic, I believe the top GOP choices are Mitt Romney, Charlie Crist, and Meg Whitman. The latter would change the dynamics of this presidential campaign, and would immediately put Sen. Obama on the defensive.
Complain about this comment
Re: RupertBe (25)
" Every sane person knows that McCain proposed the surge (which Biden and B. Hussian Obama opposed) and it's the surge that has won the war. "
What war have you won exactly? Surely it's not the ostensible "war on terror" . Let me remind you: Over 650,000 innocent Iraqi's have died as a consequence of this war built on a myriad of untruths, that you have the cheek to say that you've "won". You couldn't be any further from the truth - the problems are only beginning. Bear in mind also that as a consequence of this war, Al-Quaeda has become more potent and prominent and gas prices have gone through the roof!!!
Obama was 100% correct in not endorsing this illicit war and conversely McCain was in the wrong for doing the opposite. If it wasn't for the irrational decision making of the Republicans, we wouldn't have to be talking about McCain's son(s) and Biden's son going to war in Iraq in the first place as it would be a redundant issue.
Hasn't Vietnam taught you anything about waging war against countries that are supposed "minnows"?
Complain about this comment
More lowbrow rubbish from Mr Chips
Complain about this comment
Young Mr Grace,
I certainly hope so, and good riddance! Time for a quiet retirement in whichever home he wishes.I have no rumours (and little interest) regarding his VP candidate, and I reckon the betting odds have it about right (three to two for Obama/Biden). The more I learn about Biden, the more I like him, and I already like Obama a lot.
We live in Hope, in the absence of which (as several have noted), it is Hell.
["a common Arabic greeting" meaning
"Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you", deleted for the benefit of the Mods (who are as Gods)]
ed
Complain about this comment
Dominick,
Well said!Peace (in English only)
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
post 38
"I was doing God's work, not Scotland's"
Ed, is there a difference?
You're all doing very well !!
Complain about this comment
N0. 40 Well said but I would just like to add that as well as the thousands of troops that have been killed, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children have also died because of the cowardly actions of the USA and the UK.
Regarding your suggested reasons for the decision to attack Iraq I also agree but the over riding reason was Sharon's desire to get rid of Saddam because of his support for the families of the Palestinian suicide bombers.
Don't forget, Sharon was in power when the invasion of Iraq took place and this is how he viewed America:-
"Every time we do something you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister,
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001.
Complain about this comment
#40 DominickVila
Why do you suppose Sadr is laying low ? It is because Maliki and the elected government beat him militarily. Without the USA, some headcase like that would be in charge of Iraq - or Saddam would be.
Al Qaeda have focussed 90% of their energy on Iraq and many of their foreign recruits have gone there. It seems to be an antiIraqWar argument that these people would not otherwise exist. It misses the point that in their suicide videos at the beginning of the Iraq War they invariably mentioned Afghanistan and Chechnya but practically never Iraq.
16,000 were trained in Afghanistan by Bin Laden et al. before any of this started and they recruited many others. Where do you suppose those recruits would have been without Iraq ?
Zarqawi was operating in Iraq before the war. What do you think he would have done when the Kurds were sorted out (that means mostly killed, which is what Zarqawi was helping with) ? Middle Eastern countries, including Saudi Arabia (about whom I agree with you) have a long history of financing terrorists while keeping their hands diplomatically clean.
If you want a moral cause, why do you not look at Darfur ? Massacres are being perpetrated there quite straightforwardly for oil interests.
Complain about this comment
I think Biden is turning out to be a brilliant choice for VP.
Complain about this comment
#42 ezekielthemack
That is itself an untruth. You are referring to the Johns Hopkins studies. You really need to read them. They are only 8 pages each. They use epidemiological statistical methods to describe human behaviour in a staggeringly disingenuous way.
The IraqBodyCount (itself founded as an antiwar site) figure is probably a lot more accurate and they derided the Johns Hopkins studies.
The IraqBodyCount figure is less than 100,000 and that suffers from the problem that it assumes that if Saddam had been in charge deaths would have been quite normal by international standards.
Given that Saddam had tried to wipe out the northern Kurds and southern Shia and was only stopped by the nofly zones; the oil in Iraq is in the north and south and not in the centre where the Sunni are and that the other result of the weapons inspections would have meant a lifting of sanctions making Saddam very wealthy, that does not seem like a reasonable assumption.
Complain about this comment
Chill,
I have seen it argued that that was one of the strategic reasons for invading iraq - to draw the terrorists into a battleground and thus divert them from attacking us on home ground. If I were Iraqi, I suspect I'd resent such a stratagem.I still reckon the cheapest (in both blood and treasure) solution would be to simply purchase the entire opium crop and thus derive the warlords (of all persuasions) of their principle revenue source (and oppressive power) and provide the much-needed supplies to the medical system. Supplying addicts with quality product would also drastically reduce the related thievery and remove revenue from organised crime.
What are the negatives of such a proposal? Seriously.
At present, we seem only able to attack symptoms without giving any serious thought to addressing the root causes.
But, we must live in Hope.
Complain about this comment
Rove apparently asked Lieberman to pull his name from the VP list and Lieberman refused. Rove is pushing Romney.
Red rover red rover said Lieberman's over
Complain about this comment
#50 chillo.
Whether the total Iraqi body count is 100,000 or 650,000, it is still hundreds of thousands too many. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that this war was waged on a totally false premise and even more importantly is an illicit war which was NOT ratified by the united nations. Given the aforementioned statements, are you still prepared to give credence to this illicit war and all the negativity that has ensued as a consequence of it?
Complain about this comment
What a crock. The fact that Obama chose Biden as a running mate shows that he doesn't believe in the hope he preaches for a changed America but instead hopes only to win at any expense. Biden was not just a strong supporter of the Iraq war but was pushing for even before President Bush.
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5492
This is more of the same. It seems that Ralph Nader is the only one who has shown with his consistent actions that he wants to change America for the better rather than simply gain power or win a battle for his party (since he's not tied to one).
Complain about this comment
#53 ezekielthemack
The problem with the 100,000 on IraqBodyCount, aside from what I mentioned earlier, is that the vast majority of them were killed by insurgents and Al Qaeda people. That is at least partly why the Sunni population turned on them
Saddam had killed about 180,000 Kurds in Operation Anphal, some of them with chemical weapons. He had killed about 100,000 Shia in the South. He was only stopped by the nofly zones which many in EU countries were saying were illegal.
The continued weapons inspections would have lifted the sanctions and almost certainly caused the nofly zones to be removed. Lukoil alone estimated they had $40billion dollars worth of oil in Iraq contingent on sanctions being lifted People have died for a great deal less.
Do you think we would tolerate hundreds of thousands of people being killed for their oil and their ethnicity ? That is exactly what is happening now in Darfur. Who is protesting ?
#51 Ed_Iglehart
I do not disagree with you about the principle. The problem is that that solution has already been proposed, I believe and the world does not need that much poppy.
The horrible thing about the poppy farmers, if you listened to the Alistair Leithead report of a day or so ago, is that they could grow melons or grapes and make a fortune on them but the security situation does not allow it.
The Taleban effectively force them into growing poppy which Islam condemns.
Rather like the British and opium in times of yore. I suppose the only difference is that we were fairly big consumers of it then in laudenum and by direct smoking.
Complain about this comment
#3
David,
What if we are the baddies?
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
Cannonball,
Why is it a problem "that that solution has already been proposed"? Surely the problem is that it hasn't been implemented. If we don't need the opium, we can always dispose of it, and still save a fortune in blood and treasure. Previous to our invasion, the Taleban had virtually eradicated poppy growing - the one good thing they did, but we put the warlords back in charge...I suspect the term "Taleban" is now being used as a general term for any militia which opposes th centre, rather than its former more limited meaning.A very interesting link.
Chill,
I have good friends with on-the-ground experience of setting up secular co-educational schools with "Taliban" approval. All is not as we are led to believe. This video is uplifting.
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Jay Dubya, Thanks for the ten by ten, coverage and interest on 'your' blog. Kudos!
I read every post to this point, read about fathers, sons, war and losses, God, commandments Hillary and Bill, agnostics. oh and so much more.
Yes, NObama is eligible and even possibly a good choice for president, Biden will be a great asset to him and us (tongue in cheek).
Bill, Hillary and Chelsea wowed me. I like Bill and respect Hillary, though I do not think she would have been a good prez.
Agnostic? I mean everyone dies. Okay that said, brain electrons/chemicals bring a flash of light seen by the minds eye, death.
Either it is all there is, or at the end of that flash, whether a moment or a million years pass on earth you awaken to..... awareness. God be with me, I pray it is the latter.
Every sinking sailor sees him, and there is not an agnostic in a fox hole during a fire storm. Though with many that is the depth or extent of thier faith.
I checked this mornings paper in Dallas, is McCain still running? Not according to the paper, not a word, though the Antartic ice is just a tad larger than last year at this time.
MA2 #14 Plagerism and Biden, so he borrowed some well spoken words, his point is the same and you gave it.
Ed #ered throughout, I'll be spending the day with links and places, but please, leave the Obama site out of them. And have been to the Chinese(quess, I don't know the language) site, www.obama.com?
Ms Marbles, what state you from if you don't mind. City of dead preachers? Got to be California. :)
hurricane republicans
Complain about this comment
#55 chill0 Why are you mitigating the issue of American troops killing innocent men, women and children? It is an inexorable aspect of this war which cannot be denied. You can quote all the (debateable) statistics that you want, the fact is that the U.S. waged an illicit war on Iraq we should never have been implemented and as a consequence, it has had a negative effect on most of the world. If anything, the world's opinion of America has diminished greatly.
I hope you're not "excusing" the actions of the U.S. as this would be wholly misguided of you. Do you think America was right to wage an (illicit) war on Iraq or not?
Complain about this comment
The Democrats claim McCain is "out of touch" and think his cliam the US economy is basically "sound" is indeed laughable.
SSSSHHHHH.....
The Dems don't want this getting out.
Today Aug, 28,2008
"(AP) WASHINGTON – The economy shifted to a higher gear in the spring, growing at its fastest pace in nearly a year as foreign buyers snapped up U.S. exports and tax rebates spurred shoppers at home.
The Commerce Department reported Thursday that gross domestic product, or GDP, increased at a 3.3 percent annual rate in the April-June quarter. The revised reading was much better than the government's initial estimate of a 1.9 percent pace and exceeded economists' expectations for a 2.7 percent growth rate."
So -- Who are the ones that are really "out of touch"?
Complain about this comment
Doug,
One of my favourites:
I include the link to Obama's Issues and Plan for the benefit of those who keep saying "where's the meat?" or the like, as you well know ;-)
() Namaste
ed
Complain about this comment
tsk tsk....
More bad news for the Democrats:
Today Aug. 28, 2008
"NAJAF, Iraq (AFP) - Radical Iraqi Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on Thursday ordered a halt to armed operations by his 60,000-strong Mahdi Army militia, blamed by Washington for some of the worst sectarian killings of Sunni Arabs in the war-torn country.
Sadr said the militia would now focus more on cultural programmes."
Peace is breaking out all over Iraq. The Surge worke. McCain was right. Obama was flat out wrong.
Rather pathetic actually when news of peace and foreign policy/military success is actually bad news for a US political party.
Complain about this comment
#60
Hi Mike,
In answer, Republicans. For most folks their disposable income and purchasing power is slipping and has deteriorated markedly over the last 8 years and continues to do so. You can show anything with numbers, but as was once observed 'There are lies, damned lies and statistics'.
Numerological Sam
Complain about this comment
#59 ezekielthemack
Without question, I support the war in Iraq which was not only waged by the USA but I accept that they were the main protagonist. I believe that war saved a large number of lives as I outlined earlier.
Please answer some questions for me.
What would have happened if there had been no war in Iraq ? How many Iraqis would have died ?
I mentioned Darfur in my earlier post. Joe Biden believes the USA should have sent troops there. If they had, almost certainly all of the antiIraqWar people would have said that it was for oil. So should they have sent troops ? Conservatively, 300,000 (the BBC reports from UN figures) people have died in Darfur. They are dying now. Do you believe the USA should send troops there ? Do you believe the UK should ?
This illicit line is also, I believe, wrong. The Iraq war had much better justification in international law (UNSC resolution 678 appears to authorise it depending on how you interpret it) than the Kosovan war. The Russians said they would veto any UN resolution over Kosovo so none was proposed. You may recall that ethnic Albanians were being ethnically cleansed from Kosovo which prompted NATO action there. Do you think NATO should have done that ?
Do you support Russian actions in Georgia ? There will be no UN resolution about it. The Russians will veto it. Do you think we should support Georgia and Ukraine ?
#60 MikeIL
I do not disagree that the US economy is basically sound but (from the current BBC headline report)
and
It will be a while before all of that settles.
Complain about this comment
#63
So we can have a timetable for withdrawal like the Iraqis want and Bush / McCain flip flopped on (allegedly). Doesn't this mean Obama was right?
BTW, McCain really can't claim credit. The Generals have been asking for more troops since before the war. Johnny come lately should have been supporting the solution from the begining, not claiming credit for doing too little too late.
Is Sadr really disarming or using this breathing space to prepare for the oncoming conflict with the Sunni Militias we just spent 6 months paying and arming (the real reason for the reduction in violence).
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
mikeILL 10
"God" may have abandoned america but americans have not abandoned God."
Your comment.
IF you want to bring religion in to this.
then here are some thoughts on selective religious observance.
1 No other Gods, america has plenty including the dollar and the flag and America
2 I think his name is used incorrectly and with malice a lot,(by his "believers")
3 All get a day off. but not in underpaid america
4honour your parents to the nearest OAP home.
5 not kill / murder .death penalty/ world policy
6 adultary .even in the Bible belt
7 no robbing. no Iraq war? no monsanto etc stealing genes
Big one for all you big chip fans here
8 no lying.
9 no getting worked up by your neighbours wife. think "pure" thoughts in the country with one of the biggest porn industries
10 No lusting after your neighbours "stuFF"
But apparently the mods don't like this angle from me.
they think maybe a bit to religious.
They think it OK to allow this american Mike ILL to say
But Americans have not abandoned God -- at least not when compared to you superiorly superficial Euro-types..
Europe has no death penalty.NONE.
Europe also helps mothers keep a child in every way they can from housing to food to schooling.
Not well off but better off than in the states.
Most of europe gets a day(or two )off in the week, and the Eu made a law that employers should pay as part of the BAsic wage enough that people live without having to work every hour of overtime and get sacked if they say not today.
The rest probably equal on.
So what makes the BBC think that they can allow this american say that Europeans have forsaken God, but americans have not.
And I don't even believe in GOD
Complain about this comment
so putin thinks someone cooked up the georgia situation to help iin the elections.
Well I think he is a lot smarter than most americans then.
but O B 1 can know be the ones to sort it out. with a clear head.
Complain about this comment
Have you forgotten so soon that it was only a few months ago that the same Joe Biden said Barack Obama was not qualified to be President of the United States?
from the guy that rarely gets it right.
Biden also (as well as Both clintons) laid out the reasons why they believe he IS good enough to run this country.
And they were running against him in an election.
Given america's love of blood it is hardly suprising that during the primaries they did not walk around saying.
"He's better than me, "really this is more of your spam letter that you post So regularly.
Complain about this comment
MikiIl,
Not only are the democrats wrong on the war, they are wrong on thier (supposed and proclaimed) religion. Most of them who proclain to be ardent catholics but pro choice, are now under attack by the church.
Follow this and scroll down to Pelosi"> "mangles" christian teaching.
Another title there "Dems' abortion machinery rolls forward" gives another insite to the DNC's problems, not seen on nationl nor international 'news' networks.
So imbedded with the DNC are the networks, they no longer ever attemp to inform nor show the complete picture. This is actually scary, the look and feel of Hitlers controlled society. Can you say State run 'preschool'.
The real joke here is the media, Hitler and Stalin had to mandate the propoganda, here, the media is free to report (I think, or so I was taught, or was that propaganda) a fair and unbiased account of "all" the news thats fit to print (broadcast).
In the part of American that is informed at church and internet will know these things, may be to small to keep him from office. With that said, the Nobamas followers may find to win is to lose, as Hitlers people did in '39.
Too late
Complain about this comment
Did you'll see where Kinnock is now an advisor to that guy down south that some here hate so much .
you know Chavez.
Good guy neil. but is he now on the terrorist watch list.
I only bring this up because some seemed obsessed with the fact that Joe used some of his words.
Complain about this comment
17 oh some say MA makes them laugh. Well I find that hard he is so boring but the responses by some like young man are where the fun starts.
Complain about this comment
#19
Maybe I have this all wrong but I often take some of the expressions of support of the troops (as in Biden's "God bless our troops" or "God protect our troops" or however he said it) to be telegraphing to people in heartland America that the candidate isn't turning his/her back on the kids over there serving. The "God bless..." thing is so culturally ingrained here and a part of American politics, it will be hard to change that even if it is very hypocritical and comes off as jingoistic etc. I agree it does sound like an example worthy of Dylan's "With God on Our Side".
I don't think that was the subtext though with Biden. I think it was a shout-out to other military parents "I understand your pain" and that we are all in our own way beseeching a higher power to help us sort this mess out and bring our kids home.
Maybe that explanation is splitting hairs to you but Americans have a very touchy nerve given the history of Viet Nam vis-a-vis the way our vets were treated when they came home. So many of them had been drafted and just followed the law and went whether they wanted to or not. They went, got shot to hell and then came home and got treated like dirt. Many of them became a part of our shame of homeless people. That entire scene continues to be a sore spot. They (and a new generation of vets who are useful for photo ops but then ignored) are the reality versus all of the BS rhetoric about "support the troops".
Right now people here are taking pains to separate "the troops" from the entire war policy so as not to fall into that age-old Republican trap of painting the Democrats as turning their backs on "our boys" or being "anti-military".
The fact of the matter is, after the revelation of the absolute disgrace of the Walter Reed Army Hospital and the way our venerated troops have been so abused by this administration with endless tours of duty, it boggles the mind that anyone with half a brain would fall for their claims against the Democrats or assorted war critics but PT Barnum had it about right when it comes to suckers and all of that...
There are suckers in both parties but the Republicans at the moment seem to be the most out of touch with reality today.
These conventions are in essence a family chat or a means of sorting out our stuff. They aren't meant for people who will not be voting. Often the messages are crafted so well as to target certain people and are dog whistle incomprehensible to everyone else.
Don't get your knicker in a twist and jump to conclusions. It may be that what is being said to the American public is way more subtle than you assume. Even if in the meantime it risks peeving some British (non-voter) guy on a blog. Once elected, they can deal with your perceptions--and also trying to win over the sucker vote from the other side.
Got to get elected first. Phony? Sure. Its ALL a bit phony. All created for the Tee-Vee. If picking apart phony-baloney is your free entertainment, stay tuned to the Republican Convention. They are unparalleled in the plastic department. My personal theory for understanding the basic differences of the two parties is to listen to the convention music. You will hear Bruce Springsteen and Marvin Gaye at the Dems. At the Republicans', Lee Greenwood reprising the only tune he seems to know and whatever the American version of Daniel O'Donnell is at present. The one will make you want to dance and the other will induce vomiting.
And I would venture to say that the hype and phony isn't too awfully different in Britain. Especially these days when the pols all share political consultants back and forth.
Complain about this comment
HEY THOSE OF YOU THAT THINK THE SURGE WORKED 'WE WON'. YOUR WRONG IT AIN'T OVER YET.
that is the same thinking that GW had with mission accomplished.
the troops only help so much if there were not huge bribes etc being handed out there would be no success.
Complain about this comment
Biden's speech really made it clear that McCain will have to choose Romney for his VP. Tim Pawlenty is just too...dorky. I don't know a better way to put it. I'll grudgingly admit that he's an effective governor, but he doesn't come across well at all when he's in the spotlight on the national stage. If voters see him and Biden side-by-side, there's really no comparison. Biden would blow him out of the water. He's been elected twice in Minnesota, but he's never received so much as 50% of the vote here. The Republicans have no shot at winning a general election in Minnesota anyway.
Jindahl's also too young. It undercuts McCain's argument that Obama is too inexperienced to be effective. How can you really make that argument, when the person that will be second in command in your administration is younger and more inexperienced than your opponent?
The VP is going to fall to Romney by default.
Complain about this comment
Keep wagging AND barking!
Peace, Man ;-)#
ed
Complain about this comment
chillo 55
as to growing other crops.
the americans go to columbia and say ."
No coke mr"
grow this lettuce(for export)/
well lettuce is big bulky and not as easy to transport as some leaves that are going to get damaged in use anyway.
lettuce also needs LOTS of wtaer.Oh and you don't get the two crops they were getting from coke plants.
Afganistan WAS a big hashish producer but since drug laws in the world put a stop to that being legal they moved to heroin eventually.
Now we have a bunch of smack heads where they were hash heads.
there is a huge difference.
As to mellons do they need lots of water?
certainy compared to opium. easy to grow easy to process and instead of trying to take 50 tonnes of fruit down to market they can take a donkey's worth of opium.
Let them grow hash again and you will find they like you more than if you go say here grow mellons and we ill pay you but your water supply will go.
Complain about this comment
62 peace is breaking out because peopel over thyere think your sort are about to be kicked out. an dthey can have some hope without america screwing it up for them,maybe.
Complain about this comment
justin,
I agree with a previous poster. As a young independent voter, in ohio, a swing state, I find it disturbing how little attention you pay to the candidacy of John McCain. In fact, when you do mention Mr. McCain I find that many times your words are tainted with a smug sense of condescension. I would suggest taking a page from the great essayist, David Foster Wallace, and try writing from a more balanced perspective.
caroline
Complain about this comment
Too bad the speech wasn't as "refreshing" as the page. The same old Biden, the same old diingenous Democratic boilerplate, part personal sob story awash in false sentimentality and part empty promises of vague changes to quiet the proles without ever once mentioning the dreaded word, class. Yeah, the proles don't need the bilious Biden to remind them that they've got problems, lots of them; or the blustery Biden to not remind them that the Dem's have led them on and let them down, time and time again. Biden has built his opportunistic political career serving corporate interests, he's right to say Deleware is the first state, at least when it comes to being a corporate tax haven and home to more Fortune 500 headquarters than any other state. Parading his kid around in uniform may have been a crass theatrical gesture to stoke bellicose nationalism and show that the Dem's are the war party. too, but it was also a useful reminder that jungle Joe was a ready, early supporter of the whole illegal Iraq fiasco in the first place as well as many other instances of catastrophic American adventurism. Biden in fact has been a big booster not only of American aggression but Israeli aggression and Georgian aggression and that of many other U.S. client states, as well. As usual, he was as vague as Obama on what "change" actually means, using ambiguous adjectives like "affordable"; affordable to who, the top quintile or the bottom quintile? One thing's for certain, "affordable" healthcare won't mean a single-payer universal system or anything that impinges on insurance corp's interests. The Democrats like the Republicans always put profits before people. "More cops on the street" i.e. more authoritarian social controls and an expansion of America's prison-industrial complex is also typical of the Dem's as much as the Repub's. Nor were there any "daring" and penitent lines on how he was wrong about Iraq (more than once) or wrong about Palestine or wrong about Afghanistan or wrong about Central America, etc., etc. That final line, "God bless America, and God bless our troops" [it actually read "protect" our troops] was especially ominous. What kind of parochial, martial, immoral god is that? God bless the liberation movements around the world and protect innocent proles from the likes of bellicose pol's like Biden and Obama!
Complain about this comment
McCain is going to announce the VP during or before Obama's speech. A little disrespectful considering the significance of the day. In the UK, the general rule is that opposition parties stay out of it until it's their turn the following week.
Gordon Brown got into a lot of trouble last year when he went to Iraq during the Tory party conference.
If McCain picks a woman, it will look like a token stunt to get Hillary voters. None of the female contenders has the gravitas or name recognition to be considered a possible President. It will be like Geraldine Ferraro again, but on the other side.
Romney seems the more likely choice and will help with the economy factor but he's so wooden and unlikeable. Biden would destroy him in the debates.
Complain about this comment
Prickly as a porcupine - Could it be the weather?
;-)
Complain about this comment
Minnesotaguy
Agreed Pawlenty lends himself to the dorky tile, but he is a man of action and a good politian.
I would like to see Mitt Romney myself, more to see him take the mantle after McCain, shutting down the neo-socialist for at least eight more years, possibly twelve.
Yeah, I know that scares alot of the brainwashed people that think Bush was/is a poor president, but they are still free to say so.
I know when I watched last night, ....it felt good and right,.. but analising what was said and how ifelt made no sense. Is there a white noise, unseen or heard, like flash card of pold within the broadcast?
callin green lantern
Complain about this comment
jf, got it there, let them grow herb for hash!, That would just crush Canadas newest and largest cash crop. Hydroponic.
Complain about this comment
Plenty of Parking Space
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
ref #80
Biden would lose in a debate with Romney.
Biden makes berbal gaffes all the time.
Complain about this comment
Cyril_Croydon (#80), Biden could destroy anyone in a debate, but as there will likely only be one Vice Presidential "debate," it doesn't much matter. I do think that Biden was chosen for his expertise and his ability to speak, but I don't see that as a determinant in the outcome. To win, the people must believe that Obama is the right man for the times and McCain is not.
We have had some remarkably bad Vice Presidents in recent decades (Agnew, Quayle), so it clearly isn't necessary to pick a good one in order to win the election.
Complain about this comment
#27. DominickVila "I think it is important to remember that the USA remains a deeply religious nation." You really think so? Nominally that may be true, but I don't see a lot of Christian charity demonstrated by most mainstream churches. The bigotry and downright hate that is spewed in the name of Christ doesn't make them Christians. Consider for example how AIDS was considered to be the wrath of God on immoral (gay) men. If that really is the case then Africa and India, where HIV is pandemic, are likewise condemned. The abuse by Catholic clergy of young people (which probably is not limited to the USA), the dogma of no contraception and the opposition to abortion even on medical grounds seems to me grounded in ignorance of the modern world. Think of all the dreadful things that have been done in the name of Christianity - the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the drowning of 'witches', the list goes on and on! I don't consider that "God" has any place in politics and when it does, it is simply pandering.
#4. jackforge - "one nation under God" wasn't added to the Pledge of Allegiance until the middle of the last century, so the 'rules' were changed.
#26. Ed Iglehart: The British National Anthem was written in 1745 when it was assumed that a supreme being existed (I wonder if there were any atheists then?) and hasn't changed. The verse about the Scots was never a part of the official anthem, but merely inserted into what was a patriotic song:
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
Of course, Gordon Brown may want to rewrite this slightly if the SNP press further.
One verse which is rarely mentioned seems probably the most democratic of any National Anthem:
Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.
If the UK ever does disestablish the Church, then that might be an appropriate time to change its National Anthem; I feel sure that it's an embarrassment for the Queen to hear the words - fortunately for her she never has to sing them.
Complain about this comment
DougTexan (#69), you are right about Pelosi's confusion on Catholic theology, but wrong in thinking that it matters. The division between American Catholics and The Vatican on this question is an entirely private matter among Catholics. The Democratic Party is "pro-choice," as are many American Catholics, whether the Vatican likes it or not.
I am not Catholic, and I think how Catholics resolve it is not my business. It is only important in the context of the presidential election to the extent that voters, whether Catholic or not, think it matters. To some, it is crucial; to others, not.
Complain about this comment
majik whats so wrong is someone occasionally makes " berbal gaffes"
Complain about this comment
Cyril_Cordon (#80), where did you get the idea that McCain would announce his choice for VP Thursday evening? Today's newspapers have reported that McCain stated that he has made a choice which he will announce on Friday. That's what I expect. McCain is a gentleman.
Complain about this comment
Ed, I should complain on this "Parking Lot" thing. You tube, okay, but Maricopa County 'not' knowing the value of the parking lot. On a 1.4 to 2.4 million dollar lot, the county tax role will tell you the amount.
As far as McCain owning it, so what. Now your so vested in Nobama, your going to dis his investments. Becoming a waste of time to follow your leads.
JF, wtf, America screwing it up? We can't win with you, nothing America does is right. They looking forward to our leaving, yes, but are looking to a better future because we were there.
Complain about this comment
Ed @ 75:
Right back atcha, man.
I do like to think that it is possible to bark quite vociferously all the while wagging (and winking). Which is why I love Jon Stewart so much.
So much of this political season could really make a person utterly depressed if one just doesn't find the low-hanging fruit of outrageous humor in it all. If some sort of truism is what you are looking for, I figure it will most likely be found in the humor--usually the unintended variety.
Frankly, I am looking forward to an Obama presidency and his delivering on his most important promise: to remove the White House bowling alley and installing a half court hoops court. The only ones who can make bowling seem remotely hip are the Coen brothers.
And they can tell you that left or right, American or British,...all true dudes...abide.
Happy trails, pardner.
Complain about this comment
#84, there you go again, Ed, persecuting
poor rich people.
Complain about this comment
David,
And 1745 was a pretty important year in Scotland...As to atheists, dunno, but there were plenty of Deists. Any Atheists would probably have been wise to keep their heads down. Tom Paine was shunned as a presumed atheist after The Age of Reason, by "God-fearing" folk, but Jefferson didn't reject him. Jefferson also didn't accept the divinity of Christ as necessary, but considered Him one of the wisest men to have lived.A healthy respect for Providence was widespread, and I consider Humanism dangerously laden with Hubris, God or Whatever...
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Ref 87
You make an excellent point in differentiating between what we consider being a religious person, which more often than not simply means participating in social events and convincing ourselves that we are religious because we embrace certain aspects of a specific religion, and actually practicing the teachings of prophets.
I would say that in addition to charity, our claims that our God is better than someone else's, the cultural intolerance that is evident in our actions, and our tendency to use military force to address international problems are inconsistent with the teachings and examples set by Jesus Christ and all the other prophets that we purportedly worship and use as model to guide our lives.
Complain about this comment
#84
Does he have that many cars?
Confused Sam
Complain about this comment
#59 chill0
It does not surprise me that someone as misguided as you supported the war.
Let's get one thing straight; the war WAS waged by America and to bolster their
actions they got other nations on board (i.e. Britain etc.). The war hasn't saved
a lot of lives. What it has done is cause an astronimical number of unnecessary deaths.
Let's get to the crux of this issue. The bottom line is that American went into
Iraq ostensibly to stop the tyrannical behaviour of Saddam Hussein on the premise
that he harboured WMDs. The reality is
they went into Iraq to procure oil - no other reason. One only has to look at the
despotic behaviour of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe and America's aloof response to the
way that he's persecuting the civilians in his country, to know that America
was only interested in Iraq's oil.
Now onto the answers to your questions:
What would have happened if there had been no war in Iraq ?
How many Iraqis would have died ?
A: If the ILLICIT war in Iraq hadn't occurred
gas prices would NOT have skyrocketed in the way they have and the world in general would
be in a more peaceful state than it currently is. Also, the world would have
a more positive outlook on America as a country without question.
Do you support Russian actions in Georgia ?
A: I most definitely do. This scenario is a prime example of the insidious
behaviour that America has indulged itself in since time immemorial. It is patently
obvious that the U.S. endeavoured to invoke a reaction from the Russians by
using the Georgians (U.S. allies) to fight a proxy "war" on their behalf. If you cannot
see that, you're clearly devoid of any powers of deduction.
Complain about this comment
Good gosh - This the most hysterically pro-Democrat site on earth outside of The New York Times.
I can't make sense of all of this.
Where is the critical judgment? The careful analysis? The detached judgment?
One would think Biden was perfect in every way. He is a shrewd, tough, able politician who is about as 'average' as any wealthy celebrity.
Of course, the flip-side of all this sentimental gush will be a terrible backlash if McCain wins. Sentimentality always has its dark side.
Then the anti-Americanism will pour forth in torrents.
Complain about this comment
Gary:
"...you are right about Pelosi's confusion on Catholic theology, but wrong in thinking that it matters. The division between American Catholics and The Vatican on this question is an entirely private matter among Catholics. The Democratic Party is "pro-choice," as are many American Catholics, whether the Vatican likes it or not.
I am not Catholic, and I think how Catholics resolve it is not my business. It is only important in the context of the presidential election to the extent that voters, whether Catholic or not, think it matters. To some, it is crucial; to others, not."
No - quite wrong.
The idea that all Christians make up their own beliefs as they go and that it is a private matter is such just shallow, trency political correctness based on that assumption that truth doesn't exist and religious faith is nothing more than sentimental spirituality.
All of the Christian churches hold to specific docrtines.
Pelosi is making a fool of herself when she attacks the churches. Those on the left love this fatuous nonsense, but most reasonable people are disgusted by her antics.
Complain about this comment
Oh my, have you seen the latest ticker on CNN.
Apparently the old boy McCain has a surprise in store for Mr. Obama this evening...I would put the link in, but I am unsure of how...sorry..
Complain about this comment
No.72
Believe me, this “British non-voter guy on a blog” gets it and I could believe your point about subtlety if it wasn’t for the fact that a large proportion of Americans believe the hype and patriotic nonsense spouted by those politicians on both sides who should know better. After all, what percentage of Americans believe in fairy stories? i.e. creationism. You have a militaristic macho society which scares large parts of the world and if as you say the (not so subtle) religious incantations are to snare the sucker vote, what do you do when you get them? you perpetuate the same old nonsense as peddled by the right wing instead of educating them with confidence and conviction to have a more tolerant and understanding view of the outside world.
I remember prior to the Illegal invasion of Iraq, American generals saying “soldiers don’t want war, it’s the last thing we want” and then the television crews interviewing American soldiers on the ground waiting for the order from Bush to attack; to a man they said “we can’t wait to go in and ‘kick ass’” (that well known Americanism) They had been so hyped up by the lies of politicians like Bush and Cheney that they were more than willing to go in and slaughter anyone in their path! This is the result of “subtle” messages.
If you are a reasonable and fully aware Democrat you should not dance to the tune of the Republicans, you should challenge and disgrace them for dragging the name of your great country into the dirt. Why do I care? It’s because what happens in the USA has a profound affect on us all whether we like it or not and as for Britain, I totally agree with you, we are going the same way as the US because of the election of people like Tony Blair who sold his soul to the likes of Murdock and Bush.
Complain about this comment
TimothyR444, I think the pro-Obama slant
is because this is the week of the Democratic
convention.
Besides, the Democratic races are arguably more
interesting this year, so from a journalistic point
of view it makes sense to focus on them.
More affairs, more finger-pointing, and far
more gossip than the Republican side.
Complain about this comment
RenoGirl (#100), it's just a tv ad which will run tonight. The VP announcement is supposed to be tomorrow.
Complain about this comment
TimothyR44 (#99), Pelosi may be loved by some and despised by others, but it is nobody's business except the Pope and other Catholics to judge her conformance to Catholic theology. Of course, in a secular election, individual voters may judge her however they wish.
She may appear foolish attempting to discuss theology at all in this context (I don't object to that characterization), but how can it be the business of nonCatholics to judge whether she is faithful adherent to Catholicism?
Do you believe that you have a right to judge my views on matters of faith? I submit that these are not your business.
Complain about this comment
"Pelosi is making a fool of herself when she attacks the churches. Those on the left love this fatuous nonsense, but most reasonable people are disgusted by her antics".
One of the most eloquent critics of organized religion, until recently, was none other than John McCain who referred to religious leaders as "agents of intolerance". Unfortunately, as in so many other issues he has done a u-turn and now courts the religious right for motives that should be apparent to everyone.
Complain about this comment
Hello Gary,
Do you think it is the same one currently running on his website ?
Complain about this comment
The democrats will lose because they picked a candidate that couldn't win battleground states, couldn't win women voters, couldn't win latino voters and couldn't win blue collar white voters.
Not only that but he has no experience and all of his past supporters have been exposed as crooks. And he was wrong about iraq.
If I was Hillary I would be very upset about having to wait another 4 years to become president and if I was one of the 18 million people who voted for her then i would vote for McCain instead (which lots of them will do)
Complain about this comment
Ref 60
Contradictory statements from government officials, the media, and academia can, indeed, result in diverging views regarding the state of our economy and fiscal solvency.
Unfortunately for us, our federal budget deficits, national debt, unfunded liabilities, banks on the verge of being declared insolvent, the record number of bankruptcies and foreclosures, the drop in real estate prices, inflation, record energy prices, rising unemployment, erosion of skilled jobs, and lack of consumer confidence don't need in-depth analysis, those problems are evident to everyone.
Compare the transcript in your post with the following from USA Today:
"The long-term economic health of the United States is threatened by $53 trillion in government debts and liabilities that start to come due in four years when baby boomers begin to retire".
Complain about this comment
RenoGirl (#106), I am not an insider and have no idea. "All I know is what I read in the papers." (Will Rogers)
Complain about this comment
ref 101
First is was a legal war of liberation.
Second most Americans except for the extremists on both sides do not feel the obligation to vote because of party.
We have brains, well most of us do
Some Democrats will vote for McCain because they don't think Obama is qualified and others things he is too liberal.
Complain about this comment
Gary 109,
I am smiling at that! I was just looking for an opinion, I really do not think he would do anything other than that....but I guess you never know, it is after all American politics !
Complain about this comment
For DOUGTEXAS:
Does this apply to you, too?
"What's the matter with Arkansas?", where people are losing their farms, homes and jobs but still are convinced that they must vote Republican.
I know that you say things are not so prosperous for you, now, too.
Yet, you claim to be a dedicated Republican.
Could you explain why you feel that way?
Complain about this comment
It is my understanding that:
(1) The British government reviewed the Lancet report on Iraq casulties and approved it.
(2) The Iraqui government is also now estimating 650,000 casulties.
___________________
As mentioned above, the key elements in the "surge" were:
(1) Bribing Sunni tribal leaders for their support.
(2) Arming them.
Complain about this comment
#99. TimothyR444: "All of the Christian churches hold to specific docrtines." Yes, and the Catholic Church forbids, utterly and completely, abortion and birth control. Those Catholics who don't abide by the teachings of their Church are liable to be excommunicated - and in any case, what kind of member is that choses one part of the rules and ignores another; it really doesn't say much for adherence to the claimed faith. Neither Pelosi, Biden, nor any other politician, can ignore what their Church demands and still be in communion with that Church: Catholics cannot receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights, stem-cell research, euthanasia or gay marriage. It's really as simple as that!
Complain about this comment
#109. Gary_A_Hill "All I know is what I read in the papers." (Will Rogers) Better still, "It must be true, for I read it in the papers, didn't you?" (Lionel Bart, "Lock Up YOur Daughters".)
Complain about this comment
Here's another good Will Rogers quote for anyone here not familiar with his ouvre:
"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."
The Democrats are looking more organized than usual this year, thanks to Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi. Whether that will make a difference remains to be seen.
Complain about this comment
McCain's edge in the polls most unlikely to be dented by Senator Obama's Nomination:
Firstly, despite speeches to the contrary, the
war hero McCain, descended from Admirals will obviously be a much better Commander- in-Chief than Senator Obama can be at this moment in time. Talking of the times, we are in the midst of an international embroglio with the cold war in the making. The U. S simply cannot afford to have an on-
the-job trainee Commander-in-Chief.
Another thing I noted in the telecast was seeing another speaker, who had been lampooned for 'flip flopping' accusing McCain of same.
While one can admire a person like Obama
for his meteoric rise, what really matters
for himself as a loyal citizen of America as well as for other U.S citizens is, to put America first. Is he ready to take on the awesome responsibility of being Commander
in Chief of the most powerful country in the
world with the type of political or other (Military) experience that he has had so far,
especially in the present context of impending cold war, wars and rumors of war?
Complain about this comment
I just saw a newscast showing the set where Obama is going to be speak.
It looks like the facade of a Las Vegas Casino.
Complain about this comment
Appealing to God to "Bless America" go old after a while, but it is part of the patriotic speel; one expects it.
However, remember Biden is from the East Coast and more from Philly than Delaware, in fact the State of Delaware was once part of Pennsylvania or William Penn's land grant. He is loud and verbose become that is required on the East Coast if you want to be heard above the noise. Out here in Iowa, you are consider crast just for asking for your civil rights in a voice above a whisper.
Obama needs a Joe Biden to take on the Republicans: Someone to put Cheney and the Neocons back in their boxes. He is like Indiana Jones and Buffy the Vampire Slayer roll into one loud little man with the personality of Eddie Murphy. He is a winner.
His speech even rivaled that of Bill Clinton's, which is a feat in itself.
His only weakness I see is that he still has some 20th Century Cold War Warrior mannerisms. Condeming Russia out of hand won't get it. Leave all that noise back in the Cold War. The Cold War is over. Russia sees China being Communist/Socialist and getting rich by always pretending to agree with Bush-Cheney Neoconservatism; taking its dollars to the bank, and pretending what the U.S. says matters. It is the new Diplomacy: Yes 'em to death. It works.
If Biden can be forgiven for self promotion; Both Hillary and Bill can also be forgiven. All good people. Just because we are Democrats don't think we vote for jackasses.
Complain about this comment
99, Gary.
Most Catholics seem to take church teachings with a grain of salt. It is unrealistic to ask people to adhere to Medieval doctrine.
I had a Catholic friend (an Italian-American) who married in her early twenties. Her family was devoutly Catholic and it disturbed her that she would be saddled with a family so soon. When she told her mother how upset she was, her mother said, "You can be religious, but you don't have to be stupid."
It is my experience that Latin Catholics argue with their church. I don't think evangelicals do.
Complain about this comment
Drudge is reporting that the name may leak anytime now.
Looks like it's between Pawlenty and Romney.
Obama up by 6 according to latest Gallup daily tracking
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109897/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Moves-Ahead-48-42.aspx
Complain about this comment
114, David.
You are looking at Catholics with the eyes of a Protestant. In talking about church memebers, you say, "...what kind of member is that (who) chooses one part of the rules and ignores another..."
A Catholic, of course.
And, by the way, when was the last excommication you heard about?
Complain about this comment
#26 Ed
I think you missed a certain verse?
Complain about this comment
#118, As Bill Clinton said, "Do you want to roll the dice?"
Complain about this comment
#117
Solo,
It seems to be a common assumption in some circles that Commander in Chief is the most important role of the President, and that he needs experience in military tactics to be a good one. This is a rather silly arguement. Firstly because it is a head of states first duty to avoid armed conflict and achieve the nation's objectives through economic and diplomatic means. Should a shooting war start then the professionals can and do need to take over, we have the Joint Chiefs for that. At that point the Presidents main job is to put the economy on a war footing and rally the population. Having knowledge of how to fly a plane that was retired from service 20 years ago hardly qualifies you to do that.
As for being descended from Admirals I am descended from a long line of bankers. However I strongly recommend you not engage to help with a merger or acquisition, or any kind of financial deal for that matter. Because I suck at it.
So the question becomes do you pick a persuasive, thoughtful man who is willing to take counsel and advice, but be decisive. Or an old man who doesn't understand economics, doesn't get technology, thinks you should joke about bombing foreign nations and allegedly has an anger management problem just because he got beat up by some nasties 40 years ago? It's an interesting choice.
But military service has nothing to do with it.
Sam
Complain about this comment
The Catholic Church has had differing opinions about abortion over time...
The issue was over when the soul enters the body
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm
St. Augustine believed in "delayed ensoulment" meaning the soul entered the body when the fetus was fully formed..before that time the fetus was not human but vegetable or animal.
Complain about this comment
#117
Being shot down and spending six years as a prisoner does not make one a "war hero".
Publicity does.
McCain was given a figurehead appointment as Commandant at Annapolis.
He was then given Congressional laison duty, (more figurehead assignments).
Where is the vaunted "military experience"?
He was fourth from the bottom of his class, implusively kept climbing over the wall and drinking.
His military upbringing has creacted a reactive, non-thinking person.
Those who know him personally say he is too uncontrolled to be allowewd near a "war" button.
So, what we have is not successful military experience, but exactly the sort of personality that should be kept AWAY from
real military command.
[Bush as "War Leader" and "Decider", had learned to fly in the National Guard and, on some weekends, defended Texas from the Viet Cong].
Abraham Lincoln, FDR, etc. had no miitary experience at all and did quite well as war leaders.
Complain about this comment
Jackturk@101:
I cannot disagree with anything you say except that you like so many seem to think all of us average citizens have more power than we actually have. I actually care a great deal but there comes a point when you can care yourself into a state and then you have to balance things by just finding it all worthy of humor. You do what you can as a single person and then let it go. I am not fully convinced my vote counts anymore although I do tune in, listen carefully, have my say and vote.
You have no idea how much I personally HAVE spoken out to challenge things. Going back to before Bush was actually elected. Hung it out there, spoke some righteous truth to power when I had the chance to do so --and have the scars to show for it. Truly. These people (W and Cheney) scare the hell out of me for good reason. I used to have some respect for McCain but he has become a clone of W. Bought and paid for by the same powerbrokers.
I look forward to hearing Obama speak on this night, the 45th anniversary of King's famous "I have a dream" speech. I vacillate between cynicism and hope. I have hope in my fellow Americans. I have nothing but cynicism for my government. Enough said.
Complain about this comment
The Oracle of Denver will emerge from the temple tonight to deliver words of wisdom directly from the gods of Democratic politics. And if we don't obey, we will be smited by them.
Complain about this comment
#7
Do you realize that you just quoted the exact verbatim of Brit Hume's (of Fox News) commentary during the DNC and tried to pass it off as your own comment?
Complain about this comment
Catholics cannot receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights, stem-cell research, euthanasia or gay marriage. It's really as simple as that!
DC
DC sorry but as marbles points out when did you last hear of an excommunication.
true there were threats against John Kerry last election, but that again I have to say was the american catholic church and did not even respect the desires of most catholics in europe at least to see an end to the death penalty.
As many american catholics feel.
the abortion issue is taken in context with the rest by many as in other churches.
The UK does not regularly have abortion in debates even though there are lots of catholics.
And doug america can do good, thats why I am voting for Obama, to give them a chance.
Complain about this comment
#19 Jack Turk
Imagine if you thought like that and lived in America...and there are many of us who do think like you.
The reward for speaking out about the insanity is to be called unamerican and lacking patriotism ( Michele Obama is an example.)
But do people with opposing views in other countries call one another un...British or un Italian ? or un any other other nation that they are a citizen of?
It seems like that is a peculiarity of the US?..if you oppose the right wing..you are anti American or you don't support people in the military...and it sometimes will go as far as calling someone a traitor for not supporting the right wing...and their ideology.
Complain about this comment
RenoGirl,
Hints on linking - bookmark it.
All,
Hints on Leaking And I. for one, am asking "Cui Bono," in the matter of stirring the cold war. It seems Mr Putin and I have the same idea. ;-) The White House dismissed the idea as "not rational", so that confirms it!
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Sam #125: You forgot about killing the Iranians
by selling them cigarettes! This was an absolute
stroke of genius!
I'm in favor of solving our international problems
at the same time that we correct our balance
of trade deficit.
Complain about this comment
14. MarcusAureliusII: "Have you forgotten so soon that it was only a few months ago that the same Joe Biden said Barack Obama was not qualified to be President of the United States?"
He's still not qualified.
Hillary, Bill and Joe all know Obama's not qualified. Hillary and Bill proved they can outperform anyone in the party. Biden wants to be VP.
Nothing they said changes the fact that Obama's inexperienced. They've simply changed their tunes.
Yes, they can.
Complain about this comment
#134 gunsn'r
Hey, the Americans are learning to be true imperialists! Don't forget China. The British tried opium in 1856, but Marlboro is probably more effective.
Complain about this comment
Taking the high road?
Peace, Man.
ed
Complain about this comment
#131. jacksforge "when did you last hear of an excommunication." First, there is a big difference between the denial of the Sacrament of Communion and Excommunication. Nevertheless, four women have recently been excommunicated, not for anything as heinous as abortion, but for attempting to become ordained. May 4 of this year in Winona, Minnesota (Kathy Redig) who, according to the Bishop of Winona opined that "by her actions, she has excommunicated herself.” November 11 of last year there was a similar episode in St. Louis, Missouri concerning three women. Archbishop Raymond Burke declared them to be excommunicated; he said that it "was part of his “solemn duty” to protect the faith and unity of the Church.
I understand that there is a great gap between theory and practice, but the position of the Catholic Church remains the same. Perhaps they can go to confession and receive a penance, if so then confessionals must be very busy!
Complain about this comment
#134
Hi Guns,
I think we can do both, I really do. Just a couple of ideas:
Invest in 50 new nuke units to provide base power generation
Invest in wind turbine technology and follow Pickens lead. He's on to something.
Build a true National health service, same the 10% of GDP we waste on our inefficient healthcare system and eliminate the hidden tax on business of paying for it so our car companies and manufacturers can compete
Tax gasoline $4 a gallon and use the revenue to invest in hybrids, electric cars and roads
Tax credits for Solar recharging stations at major suburban employers
Invest in Rail and other public transport
Offer all aliens legal residence and tax their income
I could go on. We could do this. But we won't.
Tired Sam
Complain about this comment
#136, oldnat, that's right! Pretty soon the
Iranians will all be cowboys and have lung cancer!
Complain about this comment
64, chill0.
I think you should put your blood where your mouth is. Join the army.
Complain about this comment
And, just in case you hadn't heard...
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
No.128
I sense your frustration and it's probably that which caused you to take issue with some of my comments. I have exactly the same misgivings about the way politics in the UK is heading.
However, from checking out the various American progressive sites on the net I get the impression that things maybe changing for the better in the US, even more so than here in the UK., certainly the prospective election of Barack Obama would indicate it to be the case. The traditional and heavily right wing biased media which gives succour to the bigots is slowly losing its monopoly and the more reasoned voices are being heard, good luck for the future.
Complain about this comment
50. Chill.
You say it is untrue that more than 650,000 Iraqis have died in the war. That is a figure many months old from Johns Hopkins. Argue with them. As far as I know they are not running for election.
Complain about this comment
Watching live. Al Gore is giving a good speech.
Complain about this comment
Tonight we will witness Obama's greatest accomplishment: giving a speech.
Complain about this comment
126, Bethpa.
That may be interesting academically. The truth is that women are going to have abortions no matter who says what. So the Catholics and the evangelicals can talk all they want. Nobody is listening, except men.
Complain about this comment
#142, Ed, that's more or less why I thought Obama
should have picked a military man as VP.
#139, Sam, we could tie Karl Rove to a windmill,
that would be a start.
Complain about this comment
Actually, Catholics are not completely comfortable with abortion, especially late-term. Why do you think there's all this pandering to Catholics (1 in 4 voters)? They've even changed the platform.
The democrats don't want to be considered the party of death any more.
Complain about this comment
#149
That's why we all oppose anti-biotics-
too much killing!
Complain about this comment
"The problem with Obama’s vision for the future of America’s role in the region is that his understanding of the war and the consequences of victory or defeat is stagnant and superficial. He hasn’t changed his proposed policy despite all the changes on the ground over the course of the war. He says that Afghanistan, not Iraq, is the main front in the war on terror and backs this claim with the recent increase in violence over there. This raises the question of why he didn’t see Iraq as the main front when Al-Qaeda was wreaking havoc on Iraq and not only redirected almost all of its resources and fighters to the country but even declared it an Islamic state."
Omar, Iraq the Model
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
This is a very interesting blog written by a pro-westerner Iraqi. If the pro-westerner aspect bothers you, don't go there.
Complain about this comment
128,
and thanks to you marbles ,dc and and so many others on this blog I have hope that the americans will prove me and all the cynics wrong.
Though DC you really should give up on the catholics.
Maybe I just know more or having been brought up in a Catholic boarding school for some time ,I got used to seeing that though delusional in their belief in a God(well maybe never say never) , on the whole they are straight forward.
You really have to go find out the difference between the american church and the european church.
Complain about this comment
gary:
"Pelosi may be loved by some and despised by others, but it is nobody's business except the Pope and other Catholics to judge her conformance to Catholic theology. Of course, in a secular election, individual voters may judge her however they wish.
She may appear foolish attempting to discuss theology at all in this context (I don't object to that characterization), but how can it be the business of nonCatholics to judge whether she is faithful adherent to Catholicism?
Do you believe that you have a right to judge my views on matters of faith? I submit that these are not your business."
Absolute nonsense.
Pelosi decided to have a fight with the clergy. That is a stupid stunt for any politician.
If she doesn't want commentary, she should not have picked a fight she could not win.
Those who get snooty and say"It's none of your business" should keep their views to themselves in the first place. Once the views are out there, they are fair game.
That's the way the game is played.
Complain about this comment
Pelosi is not exactly the most intelligent politician
in the world, so I'm not sure what any of this proves,
except that maybe McCain is not so bad because
at least he's not of the same party.
Complain about this comment
152, Jack.
I am interested in what you are thinking, so please explain a little more what you mean. You were a bit too cryptic or I was a bit too dumb. Also, to understand your thinking better, were you at school with Irish or Italian Catholics?
David, when a Catholic does not follow the teachings of the church, if he is religious he often leaves the church. If he is a so-so Catholic he will do whatever he wants, regardless of what the church thinks about it.
Complain about this comment
#152. jacksforge "You really have to go find out the difference between the american church and the european church." You may have gone to a Catholic boarding school, but apparently they didn't teach you the meaning of the word 'catholic'. It means universal, and the (Roman) Catholic Church has exactly the same rules and beliefs whether in Europe, America or Asia. That those who attend their local RC church break the rules doesn't make them immune from "grave sin" and the possibility of an after-life in an unhappy place. Personally I don't believe a word of it, I just tell you what those at the top say. It would be just as interesting to hear whether Pelosi, Biden, Kerry and others truly believe in 'transubstantiation'. I was brought up in the Anglican version of Catholicism in which 'consubstantiation' is the accepted explanation for Communion. Rather than asking about their views on abortion or when life begins, ask them to explain that!
Complain about this comment
156, David.
You are English and your Catholic church naturally reflects English mores (having to do with practice, not what they say at the top). In the States the two largest Catholic groups are Irish and Italian. The Irish group is much more doctrinaire, which reflects its culture. The Italians leave a lot to interpretation, and usually the most convenient one.
So even though the Catholic church is universal in theory, in practice it isn't.
Complain about this comment
#147 allmymarbles
Yes women will have abortions anyway.
But people should also know that there is a wide variety on when religious leaders believe a fetus becomes a human being. The idea that a fetus was always a human from conception started in the late 1800's in the Catholic Church.
I believe the Catholic Church is trying to amass power by stopping abortion and having as many Catholics as possible ..but the authoritarianism may be driving people away along with the world wide problem it has had with pedophilia.
Its worrisome to me that the Catholic Church is attempting to influence voters by telling them who to vote for based upon Catholic dogma. ..so there may be a back lash among some people like myself to oppose Catholicism when it enters politics.
Complain about this comment
158, Bethpa.
The Catholic church did itself in with Vatican II. The pageantry, the beautiful music, the language that no one understood, the mystique, the medieval nuns' habits, cloisters, monestaries, processionals, Gregorian chants, the drama -- all gone. It wasn't religion; it was theater.
A bunch of us of mixed religions, or no religion, would go to midnight mass at special churches, as one would go to a play or concert. The faithful attended church.
Then the church decided to become make-believe protestants with guitars, and the magic was gone. And then came the scandals.
The Catholic church has lost its power. I think the politicians are wasting their time.
Complain about this comment
155 marbles
English catholics.
Not irish or italian.
156 DC you know nothing it seems to me. you talk of a universal catholic church .
IT DOES NOT EXIST.
The pope is a figure head.
Desisions are made and communion is taken and confessions are confessed.
They got rid of the inquasision a while back with the racks , and iron maidens.
Not once in 18 years I went to church did I hear anyone talk about abortion at the pulpit.
Not once did I hear anyone tell any lady not to use birth control.
All races were accepted as equal.
Do not begin to think you can tell me about stuff that you have NO experience with. It will make you as un informed as MA,DC
Complain about this comment
marble just read your letter and well said.
157 159 155
but you have it slightly wrong the "good catholic" only has to confess,and repent
(there's the rub,hear of the old english King with the horse hair shirt.)
all bull to me. I spent more time feinting in church than standing(all that incense and a lack of sugar).
Complain about this comment
161, Jack.
Repentence can be an emotion that doesn't last. Anyway those who don't repent often get angry with the church and leave.
156, David.
To everything Jack said, I say "ditto."
Complain about this comment
161, Jack.
I am descended from Italian Catholics. Just to show you how far off the scale they were, they never allowed their children to receive first communion ("children don't sin"). The last rite (as opposed to last rites) they celebrated was baptism, probably so they could have a party. (If they had known that baptism was an exorcism of sorts, they wouldn't have allowed that either.)
They never went to church unless they heard the music was going to be particularly good. Otherwise their appearances were restricted to weddings and funerals. And yet, they would insist to one and all that they were Catholic.
As to confession, my grandfather maintained that the priest led an abnormal life so was not able to judge the lives of normal people. (That got rid of repentence right there.)
You can see why it wasn't much of a jump from my family's form of Catholicism to antheism.
Complain about this comment
Antheism?
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
164, Ed.
Atheism.
Unfortunately I write fast and forget to edit. So all my comments, or most of them, are replete with errors. I like to think that my thoughts are not as sloppy as my spelling and punctuation.
Complain about this comment
161, Jack.
I gues you have had some truck with Jesuits.
When I was about 16 I asked a Jesuit priest if it was a mortal sin not to obey your conscience. He said "yes." I then asked him if it was a mortal sin not to believe in god, and he said "yes" again.
So I then asked him the question I had been saving. "Suppose your conscience tells you there is no god?" He paused and looked me in the eye. "Such a person," he said carefully, "would be a victim of the invincible ignorance." No fooling those guys.
Ever since then I have been a victim and acceptable to Jesuits, albeit without my consent.
Complain about this comment
163, addendum.
Actually I have known avowed Italian Catholics who are atheists. Let the Irish beat that, if they can.
Complain about this comment
lol Marbles .
Funny thing about those pope lovers is that they accepted evolution and called it intelligent design when most americas were still saying there was no way thy were decended from apes
(which again is ignorant because it says we decended from a common animal - into apes and humans).
I was a winner of several scripture prizes at school but strangely never went to mass without someone forcing me to.
As to the particular sect of(cult) catholic I was encountering I was never too concerned,
I was at a lay catholic school that only made us all say a Hail Mary in the evening and unlike our anglican school friends we did not have to go to mass until sunday.
But here's where it is at from a Blacksmiths point of view.
Churches want and pay for things that last.
Complain about this comment
168, Jack.
I congratulate you for receiving prizes for something you didn't believe in.
Given my rantings you can see why the Irish hierarchy did not like its Italian parishoners (when they showed up, that is). We were too free and easy. Or maybe too giddy. Religion is a serious business.
I have another silly story. Some years ago we went to Spain with another couple. The other woman was an Italian-American married to a Persian. We had been living in Iran at the time and were not aware that it was holy week.
Although it was difficult getting hotel reservations, the trip was fun. One day, it may have been Good Friday, there was a procession and we sat in the front row to watch it. Big floats were coming by with statues and stuff perched on top.
The floats were carried by young men all proper and dressed in navy blue suits. We noticed that they were three sheets to the wind and chewing gum. This started the four of us laughing.
A very indignant Englishman stood up and told us we had no respect for the country and people we were visiting and we should be ashamed. More gales of laughter. The Spaniards behind us asked, in Spanish, what was going on.
We explaned to them in a mixture of romance languages, which was somehow understood. The Spaniards made the judgment, "Es loco," and laughed themselves silly. My grandfather would have loved it.
Christian joke. Why does the Virgin Mary always look so sad? Answer: She wanted a girl. I told this joke to a mixture of evangelicals and Catholics. The evengelicals were offended and the Catholics laughed.
People don't understand us, do they?
Complain about this comment
it seems they think too much about the religions to see what they are.
Every one knows they would rather be next to a catholic girls school than a evangelical reverginifying centre.
Complain about this comment
170, Jack.
How do you reverginify? Do you just pretendit didn't happen?
Complain about this comment
171 basically ,yes.
though some groups will give you a certificate.
Or the hymen can be sewed back on, or the man can be told that a white lie never hurt anyone.:)
Complain about this comment
169, postcript.
I forgot to mention that the gum they were chewing was bubble gum. That's why it was so funny.
Complain about this comment
I read this speech; it was a good reading!
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS