'Events dear boy, events!'
Life comes at you fast - as an advertisement for something or other (insurance I think?) tells Americans every day. Or to put it more elegantly - as did a British prime minister when asked about the greatest threats a statesman could face - "events, dear boy, events!" This was noted during the summer over Georgia (not great for Obama) and will be noted hugely this week in St Paul (not good for McCain).
Plainly the backdrop of images of destruction reminding Americans of Katrina will be horrible for the Republicans. So will the focus of the 24-hour news shows on the event in New Orleans (or wherever) rather than in St Paul. These events must all be in jeopardy. Which is sad for a city desperate to come out of the shadows.
But a convention without George Bush and Dick Cheney is an improved event, politically speaking. And if John McCain can sound the right note when he speaks it need not be a disaster.
As for Sarah Palin! Her creationist views are bound to become an issue (can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?). But far more politically explosive will be her views on abortion, apparently against it in ALL circumstances.
I must say I have some sympathy for this column's support of the philosophical underpinnings of that view, but it will be uncomfortable not only for supporters of abortion rights but also for many opponents who cannot bring themselves to be quite so clear-cut in their opposition. My prediction: she will be a brilliant candidate or blow up and take the whole party down with her. Not sure which.
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This seems astonishing to me - it would be like Nadine Dorries becoming Deputy Prime Minister in Britain - there would normally be two ways that would happen...
No Hope
and
Bob Hope.
But McCain must know what he is doing ?
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Gustav is a gift from Heaven that allowed McCain to rid himself of the Bush/Cheney albatross, without appearing disrespectful or ungrateful to those that still support the worst presidency in the history of the USA. In reality, Gustav may prove to be an ace for the GOP that they are likely to use to their advantage.
Palin's candor, personal experiences, and her religious convictions are already producing positive results for the McCain campaign. The crowds attending their stump speeches are larger, more enthusiastic, and leave little doubt that the Republican base has been reassured and it is, once again, confident of victory. Make no mistake, being an evangelical is not a liability in the USA where religion and social issues are often the top priorities for a large segment of the electorate.
Whether or not a political platform that is little more than an endorsement of current policies can succeed, given the state of our economic problems and the obvious failure of our foreign policy is another matter, but I would not rule out evangelism as one of the defining elements of this presidential campaign.
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Palin's selection obviously says much more about McCain than Palin. It kills the Obama-is-inexperienced attack. (Although the hardcore will still use that argument, being unfazed by reality.) It opens McCain to questions about judgment. (You've been telling us Obama is unqualified to sit in the Oval Office, and now you're telling us Palin is qualified!?)
Palin will make the evangelical right happy. They have a few litmus tests -- guns, gays, abortion -- that a candidate must pass to their liking, beyond that they really don't care. Qualifications, experience, poltical skills, judgement, etc., all take a bac seat to being "right" on those three issues. (Note that every time McCain let it be known that he as considering a pro-choice VP pick, the right wing told him in no uncertain terms that they'd bolt.)
BTW, Palin not only wants to take away the right to choose an abortion, she doesn't believe men or women ought to practice birth control. She's against all forms of contraception, including condoms. That's just plain scary.
I keep thinking of a big billboard sign. It displays three photos. On the left is an image of a beach soaked in oil, with dead fish and birds, soaked in oil, littering the sand. In the middle is a photo of battlefield blood and gore, with dead American teenagers. On the right is an image from the 1950's, a "Leave It To Beaver" sort of scene with a husband in a brown suit leaving to drive his big V8 to work, while his wife, deftly dressed and made up, wearing an apron and high heels, looks adoringly at him.
Then, along the bottom, I'd plaster this: "McCain-Palin".
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#3 (ProfCapelo):
To argue for creationism is to argue against the fundamental nature and structure of the scientific discipline. It's impossible to argue in support of evolution with creationists and other fundamentalists because they have either rejected the scientific method or remain blithely ignorant it.
In this country, at least, fundamentalists are simply using creationism and intelligent design as a wedge to acquire control of public school curricula so they can forcefeed that and the rest of their religious dogma to children.
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"Her creationist views are bound to become an issue (can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?)."
In response to those two statements: they're not bound to become an issue, simply because so many people in America believe in creationism, or simply won't care that much what Palin's views are on the issue. Liberals may decide to attack her on the issue, but if they do so, they risk attacking many Christian Obama supporters who won't appreciate their faith being attacked (regardless of their particular views on how the earth came into being).
And yes you can have a President who denies basic truths. In fact isn't that kind of their job? "No we're not in a recession"; "Climate Change isn't that big a deal"; "Energy Crisis? What Energy Crisis?"; "We're winning in Iraq"
I can guarantee her views on creation will not be a major factor (or indeed even a minor one) in the election. I'd be willing to bet they're never mentioned in any Obama/Biden campaign ads.
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#8 (mark_davo): I agree, but there a lot of us Americans who think anyone who believes in creationism is, in fact, unqualified to be president. To me, its akin to believing in the tooth fairy.
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#3. ProfCapelo: "There is no evidence, other than fanciful analogies, that the evolution of species followed a purely naturalistic, undirected process." And contrariwise, there is absolutely no evidence that the world was created in seven days, possibly six thousand years ago.
One thing about Mrs Palin, she will not appeal to many supporters of Hillary Clinton - her dogmatic views, ramming anti-abortion down their throats, is not the way to pick up votes. Evangelicals and Catholics may like her, but her zero experience of anything remotely connected with national government and foreign affairs will not imbue voters with confidence. Considering Mr McCain's age, his bouts with melanoma and the distinct possibility that he will either be incapacitated or die in office, the Governor of Alaska does not have the experience to become 'leader of the free world' at a moment's notice. If the current investigation into her actions shows anything untoward, she may just be the first female candidate to withdraw from the process, and before November, a more reasoned and viable running mate will be selected.
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I agree with Justins verdict - Palin will either be brilliant or step into a Dem elephant trap.
BTW, it is hardly ever mentioned but it would seem that the lax system of planning in the USA, allowed in the words of one environmentalist, "the Mexican Gulf to come to the doorstep of New Orleans".
That is, greedy developers were allowed to drain the swamps below New Orleans, whcih in the past would have drained a lot of the energy out of the hurricane.
You reap what you sow never seemed more appropriate.
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justcorbly,
Arguments for creationism (as in, 6-day creationism) is one thing, skepticism about naturalistic evolution- and suggestion of an alternative theory- is another. Fundamentalist 6-day creationists are no less fanatical than fundamentalist natural evolutionists- they are both power-mongers, all too keen to use their dogmas to gain political advantage.
Why are Darwinian cathechists all too keen to prevent the questions from being asked? Whatever happened to free inquiry? 6-day creationism clearly contradict scientific evidence. Iintelligence design, on the other hand is compatible with evolution (not naturalistic evolution), but Darwinists disingenously confound the two, to foster their own agenda.
Give me one positive proof that naturalistic evolution is empirically true, otherwise, ventilate the space, and let the questions be asked...
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McCain's choice of Palin is quite puzzling,
when there were numerous, more centrist
possibilities. As David_C points out in #11,
it is hard to believe that many Hillary supporters
will come across the aisle to vote for her.
Other than their DNA being statistically
the same, what do they have in common
with her, other than her sex?
Karl Rove, what have you done with the
real John McCain?
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Justin, I think you are broadly right: either Palin reaches those parts of America that other politicians don't reach, or she destroys the McCain campaigns primary argument against Obama. I suspect it is the latter.
It seems to me that Palin is an entirely defensive pick: I can't think of a single Dem state (including Pennsylvania) that she would help swing; on the other hand, she may be helpful in Montana, Colorado and New Mexico, and might even save her nemesis Stevens in Alaska.
As for the comments of a 'professor' of political science from Rockland Community College ... perhaps you should watch David Attenborough ... one of the kindest and wisest of souls in natural history: the processes of geology and evolution have been far more complex and time-consuming than creationism has ever got to grips with ...
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At time of writing the impact of the huricane is unknown but it would appear to me that if it does strike New Orleans then there is an opportunity fro McCain. IF the consequences of the hurricane are handled much better than with Katrina and if disater relief is propery managed then it would allow the republicans to claim that lessons have been learnt and perhpas to try and dump the blame for the mishandling of katrina on GWB rather than years of lack of planning.
You're all doing very well !!
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#16, Y-M-G, the problem with Gustav
is inconvenient timing. We won't know
the consequences of the storm for people
living in the impact area for some time.
But, we do know that a lot of people who
would have tuned in to some part of the
convention will instead be flipping over
to a channel covering the storm.
At least Bush and Cheney have an excuse
to miss the convention. The problem is
that everybody else does, too.
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# 3 #7 etc.
Anyone concerned should check the Southern Baptist Convention and Richard Lamb's publications therewith.
They claim 16 million adherents (or voters?).
Some 23% of the US population are said to believe in Armegeddon and other such stories.
Thus, someone spouting Creationist nonsense could get votes that McCain alone could not.
Note that Lamb has already pushed this phrase among his adherents:
"Better a third-rate fireman (McCain) than a first-rate arsonist (Obama)"
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#13 (ProfCapelo):
The kind of proof you sem to be seeking does not exist for any number of commonly and historically held scientific precepts.
My interest in creationism and ID is not to convince their adherents to accept evolution. I don't care what they believe; it's none of my business. And, vice versa.
(Although it's more than ironic that they attack evolution for being unproven, while ignoring the fact that their beliefs are, by definition, not amenable to proof.)
My interest is in combating the political agenda of creationists and ID adherents. They don't believe in the same kind of country I do.
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# 3 Capelo's absurdity
There is enormous evidece concerning the random aspect of evolution and an increasing amount of medicine (today, about 20%) depends on it.
It indicates that an exodus from Ethiopia
c. 60,000 years spread the entire population of homo sapiens about the World, for example.
Since Creationists claim that the World is only about 6,000 years old, etc., knowledge must proceed without their contribution, whatever its potential might have been.
There is much knowledge of how evolution has developed and the processes by which it has resulted in, for example, the difference between our brains and those of our cousins, the chimpanzees (over a peiod of 5.5-6 million years).
The argument that the result is"too complex" not to have had an "Intelligent Designer", is an argument, on several grounds, from ignorance
As with all humans, one seeks causality. Among primitives, the unknown is explainable by an anthropomorphic "god did it".
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Creationism was forced on me growing up Catholic in Texas. Then at 18, in college, I chose Anthropology to cover a required area of coursework and it opened my eyes. It's compelling. I mean, c'mon, what are the odds?
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If one-third of Americans really believe in such fantasies, it does not portend well for the country:
Armageddon is a mass fantasy. Politico-religious delusions of Biblical prophesy are said to be held by a third of Americans.
Typical is the belief in “The Rapture”. This scenario holds that, once Israel has regained its “Biblical lands”, legions of the Anti-Christ will attack it in the Valley of Armageddon.
The Messiah will then return for The Rapture, raising true believers bare to sit at the right hand of God and watch those unsaved left on Earth writhe in pain.
According to the Washington Post, American President Ronald Regan repeatedly referred to his belief that “Armageddon may well occur during this generation and could come in the Middle East”.
Regan had frequent contacts with evangelicals.
[For more, Google "The Rapture Index"]
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Hah! How ironic. The Evangelicals prayed for rain on Obama's convention, and instead there's a storm over McCain's. Now, Bush and and many other important speakers have canceled and there are rumors that there is a call for abbreviated ceremonies (the first time for a political convention in history). It would seem that the RNC is shaping up to be a complete and utter disaster.
It really makes a person wonder who's side God is on in this election.
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# 21
We have imagined God ... so there He is.
Whenever I visit America, I always take the time to see a retired preacher, who takes a surprisingly pragmatic view of religion.
As he puts it, well, we originally lived in very primative conditions, needed the basics, freah water (rain), fire (lightning) and as we humans developed and communicated, these 'random' events were deemed to be generated by 'the gods'.
Fundamentally, (no pun intended) by 'special' people i.e. the gods, who were patently cleverer than us.
Notice that the concept of the heirarchy, an all-too-human characteristic, is already forming.
Later on, as we come to better understand how potable water and fire come to be, we have to dispense with fire and water gods and come up with a unified theory i.e. one God.
This is one of the few occasions whereby it seems to make sense to sit-on-the-fence and say 'I do not know' that is, be an agnostic.
Mind you, at the end, as I move on, I'll be Church of England again ... just in case it is not all mumbo-jumbo or as Einstein put it 'one big fairy tale'.
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#21 Xie Ming "The argument that the result is"too complex" not to have had an "Intelligent Designer", is an argument, on several grounds, from ignorance". Empty words, these. And shouting the word absurdity does not help your argument, no more than it helped papists who declared Galileo a heretic.
I am no 6-day creationist, but you couldnt bother to read my previous post(s), in keeping with the tradition of Darwinian fundamentalists, who frantically engage in a dialogue of the deaf. Intelligence design does not prescribe a certain age for the cosmos, neither does it contradict the idea that organisms evolve from simple to more complex, advance life forms, over millions, perhaps millions of billions of years. The central thesis of Intelligent Design is that the notion of an Intelligent Designer at the heart of the evolutionary process is a credible alternative to pure naturalism.
What is frankly absurd, my dear friend, is that you have precisely resorted to analogies (of the brains, etc) to 'prove' that naturalistic evolution is true, while, if you are just a little bit more open, the same analogies could be used to support the Intelligent design theory
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Usually I vote for the lesser of the two evils. This time I might have to sit this one out. Each pair is worse than the other in their own way. The old saying that God looks out for drunks, fools, and The United States of America had better be true because whoever wins this election, nobody in the White House will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves.
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Interesting bit about religion. Tony Blair thought he would be considered a nutter if he spoke about religion.In US, everyone seems keen to prove their church credentials. I wonder what minorities in US think about all this religious fervor? And who would they vote for?
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#24 alphakxyz
"It really makes a person wonder who's side God is on in this election."
I thought it was fairly clear. The Good Lord (if you believe in Divine Intervention) is revealing his wrath against the Republicans for their failure of their response when he tested them with Katrina.
Since this theory is just as unassailable as ID, it should be taught in every meteorology class in the USA (and Northern Ireland).
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I can't see clearly how the Palin nomination is going to play out. Her extreme views will alienate democrats, so there will be almost no cross-over votes. And that includes disaffected Clintonites. After all they are feminists and feminists are pro abortion. So, if McCain is counting on them, I think he has guessed wrong.
Maybe he is counting on the independents. In choosing Palin, McCain has changed the emphasis to religion, and exteme right-wing religion at that. This may not sit well with independents. By their very nature they are hard to indoctrinate. What does that tell us about their reaction to the republicans' strong alliance with evangelism? We should get some indication soon.
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Palin is a Hail Mary pass for McCain. People will be forced to consider whether we want the likely next leader of the free world to be an anti-choice beauty queen with no foreign policy experience. Obama and Biden will be on 60 Minutes tonight and in the clip on YouTube the way he responded was not to denigrate her credentials but to point out that she was an up and coming public servant. He described how he chose his running mate and emphasised Biden could step in and be President and would offer him honest and independent opinions of tough situations.
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# 27
Capelo now retreats from all assertions to claim only that an "Intelligent Designer" started it all.
That is philosophical cosmology and of no concern to science at all.
Feel free to say anything you wish about why things started and what their purpose may be-
just don't try to indoctrinate school children with the pretense that it is part of science!
_______________________________
In general, fundamentalists/evangelicals try to keep extending their personal ideology to others who do not share their indoctrination in such areas as:
Perhaps the difference arises when the fundamentalist wishes to leave the fundamentalist community and extend it to:
a) the public school system.
b) the public libraries.
c) the freedom of a woman's choice.
concerning her body
d) the right of gays to marry
e) the public tax funds for Church purposes
etc.
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No no no marcus, no more please no more
I will agree to any thing you say but no more posts.
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The Obama campaign may have been handed a gift; Sarah Palin's mother-in-law, Faye Palin, said of her "I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she's a woman and a conservative. Well, she's a better speaker than McCain." Apparently she has not decided who to vote for - and it could well be the Democrat.
Creationism won't be a factor in the decision of educated voters, but Palin's antipathy to abortion under any circumstances may not sit well with many, women and men alike, nor her position on birth control and reported rabid homophobia. She can only appeal the most narrow minded and bigoted of electors. America deserves better.
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We shall hear much more about Governor Palin during the next few weeks now that the press have a duty to scutinise her in depth and at speed.
When we heard talk of her during the last few months we thought it was because she was a good little Republican. Set aside the guns and the abortion rights (of lack of), she has alienated most of her party colleagues up in Alaska and is politically all over the place.
She has said nice things about Obama, disparaging ones about McCain, and was nice enough to Pat Buchanan for him to think that she was a supporter.
She says that Washington is a mess (which is the Democrat's line) and seems to have Bush and Cheney in her sights. She may find that she is in theirs unless she wises up fast.
But she seems to have cheered up John McCain no end.
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I think you have to consider the possibility that this hurricane will be sufficiently awful that it will bring condemnation on anyone who seeks to draw political conclusions from it.
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28, staphylococcus aureus.
Staphy had inadvertantly brought up an interesting question vis-a-vis elections - voting for the lesser of two evils.
I have never subscribed to that, seeing it as a ploy to get out the vote for someone you really didn't want. When I don't like any of the candidates I stay home or, if I am feeling mischievous, vote for some hopeless third-party candidate.
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Ref 12
You are right about the effect of draining the swamps and marshes around New Orleans, but I think our greatest failure is the lack of commitment to invest in infrastructure to facilitate prosperity, improve our standard of living and, in this case, minimize the effects of natural disasters.
Since Katrina, Congress has been focused on an array of earmarks, including beach replenishment projects demanded by developers, and other projects unrelated to the need to rebuild New Orleans and construct levees worthy of a developed nation instead of the pathetic mounds of sand and flimsy concrete walls we seem to love to hate.
In fact, much of the legislation passed by Congress and signed by the President since Katrina only allocates money for short-term fixes to the New Orleans' levees, with almost nothing set aside for much needed flood defense upgrades in vulnerable communities such as St. Bernard parish.
The fact that much of New Orleans is below sea level should not be an impediment to invest in a levee system similar to what exists in the Netherlands, a country that is largely below sea level. What is lacking is commitment and a sense of responsibility towards our fellow Americans, not technology.
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Capelo: You say "The central thesis of Intelligent Design is that the notion of an Intelligent Designer at the heart of the evolutionary process is a credible alternative to pure naturalism.".
Evolution can at least be tested. You can observe it in the lab. ID can not be tested, since it presupposes a god-like figure creating all life.
It is not a credible alternative. It is not even science. But don't take my word for it. Ask the US government.
It is obvious to most people that ID is nothing more than a dressed up version of creationism designed to sneak Christian theology into science class. If you wish to believe in ID, that is your right, but it has no place in a child's scientific education curriculum.
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#27
Gives an example of morality, ethics and knowledge of those who would force a non-existent "intelligent design theory" on public school children.
Evolutionary genetics needs no assistance whatever from religious pushers.
These are not "analogies", but examples.
However, the poster is obviously ignorant of the subject and thus unable to understand evolutionary genetics.
He attempts, instead, to insert a "goddidit" line into a subject that has no need for such intrusions of the imaginary.
This final statement:
"By the way, justcorbly, it seems your ideal society is a godless one, rather than one in which belief and non-belief flourish. Very well, you are in illustrious company, with Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao, among others."
indicates the ethical and moral corruption that I observe among the evangelical promulgators of the imaginary,
for it seeks to denigrate by imagined association- a tactic common to those dominate others.pushing the imaginary to exploit and
(call the "other" the Devil)
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#22 (RubyChai):
Ruby, I'm not sure it it's evolution or creationism and ID you find compelling.
But, if it is the latter, I need to say that, since we exist on this planet, the odds were 100 percent. That's just the way it happened. If something had happened a few million years ago to send Homo Sapiens on the road to extinction, some other species would be here now instead. We think we're special because we haven't been anywhere else. To me, that's a bit arrogant.
Many of us today are in the position of our ancestors several thousand years ago. They did not understand how to predict when events like the solstices would occur, i.e., when the seasons changed. So, the few people who did know how to predict when spring and winter were coming set themselves up as priests, claimed they were in contact with the gods, and used their power to control the people.
Today, many people, understandably, don't comprehend the logic and evidence behind the theory of evolution, or modern cosmography, or quantum physics. Fortunately, people that do understand are not pretending to be priests. Instead, people who hold religious power are telling people to reject what they don't understand and adhere to illogical notions like creationism and ID.
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David Cunard: "One thing about Mrs Palin, she will not appeal to many supporters of Hillary Clinton - her dogmatic views, ramming anti-abortion down their throats, is not the way to pick up votes."
That's just the far left view. You can just as easily say about the Dems that there are millions of people who don't like their "dogmatic views, ramming abortion down their throats"
It works both ways. But this forum has one - and only one - viewpoint, which is very boring.
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John Constable:
"You reap what you sow never seemed more appropriate"
Really?
Perhaps you will travel to Louisiana and give lectures to the people there from your pinnacle of superior wisdom?
Hatred of Americans can take some very bizarre forms, but insulting the victims of a hurricane seems to go a bit far even for this blog.
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#27 (ProfCapelo);
You are putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that.
I have not addressed the subject of my vision of an ideal society. I have not addressed my religious beliefs. And won't. They're my business, and only my business.
I have said that I do not care what people believe, and that I expect them to not care what I believe.
I have said that proponents of creationism and ID are using, and being used, to achieve a political agenda that I strongly oppose.
So, the next time you decide to traffic in ad hominem attacks and call someone a "godless commie"... just don't.
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DominickVila:
"Gustav is a gift from Heaven"
Yet another example of anti-American lunacy.
Those are real people who are threatened there, inlcuding their homes. Would you have the courage to go there and express your views to them?
I wonder if they would agree.
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There is no "intelligent design theory".
As Snuffy Smith in the Ozarks would have said- "somthin pushed by feather merchants".
We see above that it is merely a pretext to attempt to indoctrinate public school children with the imaginary "goddidit" concept.
As I recall, there was recently a court trial in Pennsylvania where the proponents of "intelligent design" were forced to admit just that under oath and lost the case.
The judge was (and I am) disgusted that those claiming to speak on the side of religious morality would resort to such dishonesty.
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33, Xie.
Oh, for goodness sake, Xie, can't you speak in the first-person singlular for a change, instead of resorting to quotes, or slogans, or whatever? Try straight English and say what you personally mean.
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#28 (rajneh):
Sadly, one impact of the right-wing evangelical movement is that it gives the impression that Protestant fundamentalism is the only kind of religion in this country.
That's far from accurate. There are more people who consider themselves Christians who are not "born again" evangelicals than there are evangelicals.
Millions more are religious but do not regularly attend an organized religious service. Often these are people who dropped out of an organized church because they were disillusioned by the contrast between the church's actions and it's words.
And, finally, millions of Americans have personal belief systems that fall across the entire spectrum of religion.
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McCain has turned the GOP convention into a charity fundraiser, and Bush will not be attending so perhaps it wont do them any damage. However, they will also miss a week of free publicity to attack Obama and talk about tax cuts etc.
As for Palin, whilst she may boost turnout among evangelicals, her presence will sadden many independents and moderate Republicans who want the party to distance itself from the religious right.
The nagging question voters will be asking is whether she was picked only because of her gender. If McCain wanted an evangelical creationist, why didn't he go for Mike Huckabee? An experienced governer who won the Iowa caucus. If he wanted a token female, why not go for Kay Hutchison? A moderate, pro-choice experienced lady who may have genuinely attracted Hillary crossovers.
The choice of Palin totally undermines the main attack against Obama - "Is he ready to lead?" Only the most die-hard Republican would think that Sarah Palin, a woman with a newborn disabled child, is ready to step in as commander-in-chief. Presumably, conservative evangelicals would also think she should be at home on maternity leave?
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re Sarah Palin.
Maybe McCain has put money on Obama winning....
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#39 Dominick
The Netherlands, over centuries, reclaimed a large area of sand banks off the coast in an area of Europe that was desperately short of land. They stopped doing that some time ago, and are concerned about the long-term viability of that reclamation.
It would seem strange for the USA to embark on such a process when you have so much land. The more logical answer would be to allow natural forces to recreate a new coastline.
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37, vague.
But no one will be able to fault me for saying that Bush has incrurred the wrath of god. That fits in with the current religious theme of the Republican Party.
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#40 ptrlsn: "Evolution can at least be tested. You can observe it in the lab". You mean naturalistic evolution? In that case i have to say that's the most ignorant assertion i've ever heard, and it underscores the amazing incredulity of the Darwinian crowd.
What can be proved in the lab, my dear friend, is that life forms can 'evolve' from simple to advanced forms, guided by the intelligent scientist. What has not been been proved is that the evolutionary process is completely undirected. I do not begrudge taking the naturalistic process as a working hypothesis; my point is that building an orthodoxy from it, and condemning alternative hypothesis as heresy, is detrimental to freedom of inquiry, and it effectively takes us back to the medieval papacy
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Like beer and wine, it is never a good idea to mix theology with science.
Science is the discipline of observable physical evidence of natural phenomena, while theology is the reasoned discourse of comprehending something unobservable.
Keep ID and creationism in the philosophy department, and evolution in the science department. I don't think its wrong to acknowledge either in a classroom.
I believe it is narrow minded to demand they are mutually exclusive. Individuals should be free to rationalize their own belief systems.
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mable, what do you mean "inadvertently" kimosabe?
ukeofwales, I am as irrepressable as Hyacinth Bucket. However, if you really want me to stop posting, I'll tell you where to send the check, who to make it out to and for how much.
There hasn't been anything this exciting happen in the UK since the blitz or the Battle of Hastings. This even beats the Olympics in China. You couldn't make stuff like this up and for once, the Brits get a front row seat to watch from. Don't blink, something else might happen.
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#44 (Timothy)
I'll add to your comment the fact that the people who profited from the despoiling of Louisiana's offshore areas are certainly not among the tens of thousands trying to get out of the city today.
Those wetlands were destroyed for profit, but it wasn't the residents of New Orleans who did it.
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Justin
I'm awaiting your apology for your Veep predictions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/08/veep_predictions.html
I placed a £5 bet on Tom Ridge, who you stated unequivocally 'would be' McCain's pick.
So far, no apology. Not even a retraction! I shall be writing to Private Eye forthwith.
And I await further analysis of McCain's choice of Sarah Palin - I assume this was a stopgap update.
Isn't it utterly nutty that McCain, a 73-year old with a history of cancer, has chosen his number 2 to be a small town mayor with two years experience as Governor of one of the least populous states in America? Who didn't even have a passport until last year?
Zclex
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52, oldnat.
Absolutely. I said the same in another post. Let's stop pouring money into the ocean.
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#45, justcorbly,
I've not called you a godless commie; i'm sorry you see it that way, but my reference to Mao and Stalin was only for their atheism, but i can understand you re particularly sensitive to any association with communism. I could well have used Hitler as an example, although you might say i'm branding you a nazi. My interest, as i've said is to show that a godless society is no paradise, in much the same way as medieval papacy when heretics were burned at the stake. let's keep the wheat from the chaff. People use religion for political purpose, sometimes murderous, but they use atheism too, for no equally or even more murderous intent
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#24, alphakxyz:
I would hope a compassionate God would be on the side of the 1.2 million evacuated.
Or, maybe a vengeful God is sick of lecherism, drunkenness and bead tossing during Mardi Gras and wants to kill New Orleans once and for all.
Or, maybe God is sick of global warming and wants to shut down Gulf oil production driving up the price of fuel.
Hard to tell. Maybe a Republican could ask him for you.
The RNC and DNC main purpose is to count up the state nominating votes and declare the party Candidate. Other than a PR binge, its been mostly a non-event in recent decades.
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#43 (Timothy):
No one who is pro-choice is "ramming abortion" down anyone's throat.
Being pro-choice does not meanforcing women to have abortions.
But, being anti-abortion means forcing people to live their lives according to someone else's religious beliefs. It means ramming those beliefs down someone else's throat.
The difference is basic: The left just wants people to be left alone to live as they wish. The right isn't satisfied with living in a country where they are free to choose not to have an abortion; they want to use the police power of the state to force everyone else to adhere to their beliefs.
The right makes a lot of noise about keeping government out of people's lives. But, in the case of abortion, they can't wait.
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#52, oldnat:
Interesting bit of history; In 1953 a freak North Sea storm caused 500 dikes to collapse, flooding 200,000 hectares, and killing nearly 2000 people.
1953 - Flood disaster -- The Dutch struggle against the waters.
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In areas subject to flooding, insurance companies will not insure for damage resulting from floods. But get this - the government will. That means that we taxpayers are throwing our money away on shorelines that should be abandoned.
One of the reasons we waste our money in this manner is that people with beach properties tend to be well-heeled and influential politically. This is another instance of the government supporting the rich, to the detriment of everyone else.
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#43, TimothyR444, regardless of your personal
viewpoint on abortion, wouldn't you agree that
Hillary's supporters would tend to be pro-choice,
and therefore less likely to vote Republican
with Palin on the ticket than a pro-choice
candidate?
As far as dogma goes, I agree that both parties
are full of it.
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Xie, don't get worked up: if you google the 'prof' she's in the Pol Sci Dept of a Community College ... (see my earlier post ... I think it was about 15 ...). There is only one of that name out there.
Of course, it is disturbing to see such basic ignorance on display, but the real issue is not the historical, genetic, and geological fantasy of cranks, but what will most secure the best future for the US and the West; and, to return to the topic, I don't think Palin ticks that box.
Also, I find it interesting how Obama is playing Gustav: if you read Andrew Sullivan in Today's UK Sunday Times, he makes the point that McCain is all about tactics but without srategy; whereas Obama is all about strategy and out-thinking his opponent over the course of the race. That has got to be right. Palin, for McCain, is a tactical pick: she makes lots of noise for a day or two (or did until Gustav became the 800lb gorilla in the news); whereas Obama is quietly moving and organising behind the 'noise': it is what he did to Clinton. He is not exactly playing by standard rules: ask yourself 'what does Obama achieve by silence and letting McCain/Palin make the noise', and the answer is more than you might first think. A fool who is silent may be thought a wise man, but should (s)he speak will be known for what they are ... he is letting McCain defeat himself.
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56, staphylococcus aureus.
Everythng you say is inadvertant or irrelevant, Tonto.
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Ref 46
You certainly exhibit one of the greatest precepts of Republican political success, the ability to distort facts.
My comment regarding Gustav being a Gift from Heaven was made in the context of providing McCain with a tool he can use effectively to exhibit his patriotism and commitment. It also gave Bush/Cheney an excuse not to attend the convention.
As a resident of Florida, living in a city that was in the path of 3 hurricanes a couple of years ago, and smack in the path of tropical storm Fay last week, the last thing I would suggest is that such a catastrophic events are a gift from Heaven to the people of New Orleans or anywhere else.
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65, guns.
You have my vote. See my comment #31 which talks about this very thing.
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#26 ProfC
While religion can exist without creationism, creationism cannot exist without religion.
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#60 (ProfCapelo):
You are a real case, aren't you?
Why do you think I'm godless? What evidence have I provided?
Why are you talking about atheism? I've said my religious beliefs are not a subject for public discussion, not that I don't have any.
Are you assuming anyone who disgrees with you is, indeed, an Evil Godless Athiest Communist? One might easily assume that, you know.
Why do you think I'm "sensitive' about an association with communism? Except for expressing my views of evangelical politics, I've said little, if anything, about my own views.
Are you arguing that I'm a communist because I favor protecting and advancing our freedoms, and don't want the religious right to take them away?
Come back when you're able to make sense, and aren't channeling McCarthy.
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#66 MarkfromOxford,
You are a comedian or something? You make me laugh! I guess you are the provost of that community college... haha
By the way, i agree with the paraphrased analysis of Mccain-Obama strategies. When i read Mccain and palin went to visit Missisipi, i wondered: to what purpose? To help people evacuate before the storms? To his credit however, McCain campaign subsequently suggested they'll be willing to raise funds for the victims of the coming storms. That seemed more sensible than going to visit before the hurricane.
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In my opinion, there is little difference between Gov. Palin's ideological beliefs and those of Sen. Obama.
Hopefully, the American electorate will focus on issues that are relevant to our lifestyle, economy, the solvency of our banking system, the instability or weakness of our currency, our budget and trade deficits, our national debt and unfunded liabilities, the erosion of civil liberties at home, and our adventurism rather than esoteric themes that belong in churches and in the privacy of our homes.
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# 66
You are perceptive- ever since I was in the fifth grade, a fraud and con-artist has enraged me.
Since I am very much engaged at the moment in the genetics of human evolution and settlement
and have been with the genetic treatment of human disease
It is especially discouraging to see dishonest philosophical manipulation attempted against a such subject
and, it is quite plausible that even the weak philosophical attempts arise at the junior college level
Others here have demonstrated their understanding of the ploy and I should leave the matter to them.
/40
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#64 (AllMyMarbles):
More accurately, we are subsidizing flood insurance while we are also subsidizing the corporate behavior that destroyed the wetlands and increased the frequency and severity of those floods.
I.e., New Orleans would be a lot safer if it wasn't for corporate greed.
Myself, I'd rather we penalize the corporations and spend the money on fixing New Orleans and the wetlands.
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Psst, psst, hey mable. Shhh. Hey Mrs. Lone Ranger. If you slowly turn around and don't make any sudden moves, you just might live long enough to see the rest of my tribe coming over the hill. Is that relevant enough for ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? :-)
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66, MarkfromOxford.
Your last paragraph is a very fine analysis. Often people think Obama wimpy when actually he is playing a skillful game.
There was a to-do about giving the Clintons so much time and exposure at the convention. This was a gracious kiss-off, and a wise political move. By allowing them their day in the sun he avoided a knife in the back, at the same time neutralizing, to some extent, Clintonite hostility.
By the time the pundits have finished with Palin and done their damage, Obama might speak up or, he might ignore her. The last would be an interesting tactic.
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#70, marbles, I agree with the independents being
driven away by far-right religion. Tom Ridge,
with or without a sex-change operation would
have been a much better choice, for independents
and Hillary democrats.
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#60 Prof C
"...My interest, as i've said is to show that a godless society is no paradise,..."
Ah, so you mean that having god in society is paradise. Just like those suicide bombers try to achieve, or 9/11 or the Taliban beheading blasphemers in public, etc etc ad nauseum
Hmmm...some paradise you dream of there...
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What would Obama have done if Gustave hit during his convention? Would he have had the conventioneers fly doen to Louisiana and join the rescue squads?
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Allstate is the commercial you're thinking about :)
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Ref 73
Particularly when the only ones that can influence recovery efforts and reconstruction are the President of the USA, the Governors and mayors of the states, cities and towns affected by a natural disaster.
Opportunism is clearly evident, although expressions of support and recommendations by both candidates are certainly appropriate.
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Justin, you asked "can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?"
I think, given the example of the recent past, the answer is very clear. Yes, you can not only have a president who denies basic truths about almost everything; you can re-elect him too.
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MarkFromOxford, you are quite correct about
tactics vs strategy. But, amazingly, these superficial
tactics by McCain seem to be effective.
However, I am sticking to my theory that Obama
appears to be too intelligent to be an American
politician, so he must obviously possess some
deep character flaw as a counterweight.
I only hope that we find out what it is before
election day.
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Evening Justin,
I saw you earlier on BBC news.
I have to ask....where did you get that tie? I'd like one identical.
As for events unfolding over the next 24 hours. Everyone in the Gulf Coast region are in the prayers of the people of the UK.
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#81
Interesting question, but an answer we shall never know...and does it really matter, as it is now a mute point?
Concur #66
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Setting aside for now the rights and wrongs of Sarah Palin's views on abortion and creationism, the problem McCain has given himself is that he has sacrificed his most potent weapon against Obama with no obvious political gain to balance the equation. He has managed to find someone with no appeal to the swing voters. Perhaps uniquely, she is more polarizing than Hillary, yet less experienced than Obama.
This surely calls McCains judgement and ability to lead into question. What will Palin add to his perceived weakness on economic issues? On the contrary, Obama has added experience and foreign policy credentials to his ticket. Whilst the Democrats don't possess the Republican's flair for negative campaigning, surely they will have a field day with this one. The VP debates will be interesting!
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#84, thesb, to expand upon what you have said,
we have a rare opportunity while Bush is still
in office.
If Putin continues to misbehave, Bush can
threaten to ruin Russia's economy. After all,
he has a track record - look at what he's done
to ours.
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Ref 88
"Whilst the Democrats don't possess the Republican's flair for negative campaigning, surely they will have a field day with this one. The VP debates will be interesting!"
Neither Obama nor Biden mentioned her once during their stump speeches in PA and OH yesterday. I would not be surprised if they concluded that attacking a mother of four, with limited exposure to national and international politics, would make them look like bullies and may not be appreciated by the general public. I would not be surprised if she enjoys a free ride until the VP debate.
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Gone with the Wind?
Allo allo?
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mable make the beds
"What would Obama have done if Gustave hit during his convention? Would he have had the conventioneers fly doen to Louisiana and join the rescue squads?"
bethpa could have been at the front of the bus leading the singing of Kumbaya, Kumbaya, Kumbaya. It would remind her of 1968 in her heyday when chaos in America reigned supreme. LSD, free love, burn the bra. Wild time I'm sure she looks back on with fond memories. And Mao the USSR were still alive an kicking.
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Marcus,
You really shouldn't drink and type.
God is looking out for you.
Peace be with you,
Sam
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#43. TimothyR444 "That's just the far left view." Exactly what is "far left" about a woman deciding what to do with her own body? Mrs Palin would forbid the termination of any pregnancy and make it unlawful to procure one, regardless of rape, incest or danger to the mother. Why should her view prevail over millions of women? Couple that with all her other extremist views and what do you have, a rabid right-winger - which had another name some seventy plus years ago. If you don't care for the views expressed here, why bother to read them or contribute? You appear to be bored easily.
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I'd think that McCain was trying to lose the election..except that Palin actually has supporters..and why would McCain want to lose? Its all so crazy
One theory..McCain also is trying to get rid of the influence of the neocons who have hurt America's readiness for a war and eroded America's civil liberties. The power of the presidency has grown to such an extent that America could be faced with a different form of government if someone like Bush takes over the presidency again.
So is McCain falling on his sword to protect America?
#28 marcus
Well I am impressed marcus..even you see how crazy this all is...Palin has almost no experience in politics and in November just before the election, a court case will be decided about whether she vengefully fired someone who would not fire her ex brother in law...( who is a state trooper.) one of the crimes committed by the brother in law..? he killed a moose without a permit
Either McCain is trying to lose or Palin is someone others more powerful think they can control...just like whats his name was controlled...uh....Bush
Is any other western nation this crazy?
and I still forgive you Marcus : ) poor thing
( I bet you like Biden the best of the four?)
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Although David_Cunard (#11) considers that Palin will not appeal to many disillusioned Hillary fans, I have to say that to my mind McCain's choice was a fairly cynical and one-dimensional attempt to get votes from those who were particularly keen to see a woman in the White House.
I imagine his mind ticked over along these lines: "Hey, some of those Democrat types were pretty disappointed when Hillary didn't get the nomination; if I pick a chick to run with me they'll vote for me instead. Sounds good. Plus of course I'll have a vice-President whose arse I can slap in the Oval office and call sugar-tits. Two birds with one stone. Cool."
Am I being unfair? I hope so but I doubt it.
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Obama is starting to organize his supporters to help the people in New Orleans.
I never liked Kumbaya..too boring..but this song is beautiful
http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/this-land.shtml
short quote from the lyrics of THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND by Woody Guthrie
that is rarely heard
"In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me."
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I cannot say I agree with many of Governor Palin's positions. Check out Palin's Travels of Michael Palin of Monty Python for other thoughts.
I do admire her convictions even with disagreeing. She has courage if nothing else.
Mike
http://www.tucsonmike.wordpress.com
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I would not, could not damn an entire city of good, beautiful, soulful people. New Orleans has always been a commerical, cultual and libido saftey valve for America. It is as much a child of Europe as it is of America. If it was leveled flat, no doubt about it, we would rebuild it. The people of New Orleans are beautiful, and I pray for them.
Now, the Republicans.
Once again, your Karma makes other good Americans suffer.
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It is amazing, but many fundamendalists in this country still deny evolution. To me that shows a profound lack of intellect. So, yeah. Easy choice from here on out. I read somewhere that this election was actually the first in American history where both major presidential candidates believed in the "theory" of evolution. Sad if true...
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81. allmymarbles: "What would Obama have done if Gustave hit during his convention?"
Another question: What would Obama have done with the jet inherited from his predecessor? Would he have sold it on e-bay like Palin?
My guess: Maybe. Or maybe not.
Many of you are missing the finer points of Palin's value to McCain. He sees himself as a renegade who has bucked his party many times. I think he actually dislikes the Republicans. He's found another who is willing to stick her finger in their eyes. Neither one of them likes "politics as usual", and they are not afraid to name names and fight the good fight. The other runners up might not have been as willing to fight their party.
McCain may have lost the "inexperienced" argument but he has significantly gained in the "change" argument. Obama's never fought against his party or taken on the corrupt Chicago machinery. If anything, he's smoothly worked his way through it, with some notable associations. His VP is an old boy Washington insider.
Her anti-abortion stance is appealing to the Republican base. Like it or not, they vote, too. Remember, not all women in the middle are staunchly pro-choice. This is a fact lost on women who are ardent pro-choicers. They have trouble understanding that some women just aren't fully comfortable with abortion. These women may not want to see Roe overturned, but they also don't use abortion as a litmus test.
Hillary supporters are angry because they've been overlooked again. Honestly, they complain about pandering except when it's to them. They have created their own "special interests" group. Good for them. Now let them find a candidate that can win.
Obama's effort to turn McCain into Bush will only last so long. Judging from McCain's interview with Chris Wallace, McCain is ready for the Bush-McCain comparisons. He's opposed Bush on many issues and can rattle them off easily (ex., spending, earmarks, Iraq strategy, torture, etc.). Pawlenty was also ready for the Bush-McCain comparison on Meet the Press.
Pretty soon Obama's going to have to run against McCain and not Bush. In the meantime, expect McCain to channel Pelosi and Obama's 97% voting his party's line, which is not necessarily a plus.
By the way, FactCheck.org has Obama voting with Bush 40% of the time.
As for creationism, I've yet to read that she wanted this taught in schools. I read she wanted it mentioned. Most would agree that schools should be careful about what they prohibit from being mentioned.
Her "pressuring" a commissioner to fire her ex-brother-in-law caught my interest. Few reported what the guy had done to get a suspension (but not dismissal). He is alleged to have tasered his step-son. I can see why she'd welcome that investigation.
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Justin: Zorn's column was terrific. I'm pro-choice but appreciate and respect his honesty. Zorn has obviously thought this through.
Unfortunately, too many "pro-choicers" either can't or won't admit what an abortion entails. They tend to get hostile and too easily denigrate women and men who question or disagree with them.
I think we should debate abortion honestly.
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"As for Sarah Palin! Her creationist views are bound to become an issue (can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?). But far more politically explosive will be her views on abortion, apparently against it in ALL circumstances"
Here, again, it would be good to hear from what is politely called the "Christian right".
Because the civilized and intelligent folk would not be favorably impressed.
There is a chance that the country will continue down the slope begun by Bush.
In that case, would it be Russia, China, India, or Europe who would take over the lead of civilization-
or possibly, a move of the UN to Montreal or Strasbourg and the beginnings of effective World government.
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#7
Just,
Well said. And if we are to allow ID, we must allow Pastafarianism as well. In the begining thre ws a mountain, some trees and a midget.
And it is the lack of piates that is causing global warming.
Sad Sam
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# 104
There was a law suit in Penna. that established the motivations of the ID crew. They lost and had to pay.
My real question is whether America will recover from the influence of these unfortunates or will go down the tubes of ignorance and Puritanical regression to Salem, etc.
Well, Sam, shall we also teach about the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the public schools?
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#104 ST
When you consider Benjamin Franklin stated "lighthouses are more useful than churches.."
and Thomas Jefferson's "A professor of theology should have no place in our intitution..." one wonders what these founding fathers would think of America today and its "business" of religion!
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# 102
Well, Adreain, what is it you want to discuss?
The various techniques of abortion?
The number of weeks and cell count?
Most importantly, the religious criteria?
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107, kecsmar.
What about President Adams saying, "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion." I guess they would string him up today. For sure McCain would not have made him his running mate.
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My quotes were probably too long...
but this following link will give you all a very detailed account of the case against Trooper Wooten..who is Palin's ex brother in law.
judge for yourselves...
http://www.adn.com/politics/story/476430.html
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From Pew research;
Economy Tops List of Voter Concerns
Oct 04 2004
Very important to your vote:
Economy 78%
Energy 54
Health care 73
Education 75
Iraq 74
Terrorism 77
Moral values 63
Environment 53
Immigration n/a
Trade policy n/a
Abortion 47
Gay marriage 32
Aug 08 2008
Very important to your vote:
Economy 87% +9
Energy 77 +23
Health care 73 0
Education 73 -2
Iraq 72 -2
Terrorism 72 -5
Moral values 61 -2
Environment 59 +6
Immigration 52 n/a
Trade policy 49 n/a
Abortion 39 -8
Gay marriage 28 -4
So, 4 years later it's still about the Economy.
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I think there should be a national referendum on abortion, with only women allowed to vote. We all know what the result would be.
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108, xie_ming:
Let's start at the end, when the baby is "terminated". Is that baby killed?
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A blog on the web predicted 3 weeks ago that something weird was going to occur regarding the Republicans on account of the ad mocking the prophet Moses to belittle Obama. I saw that ad and my first impression was this is purely sacrilegious. Then Gustav landing exactly when they start their convention.
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# 107
If the separation of church and state really interests you, this is supposed to be a great discussing of the Founding Fathers and the issue:
So Help Me God: The Founding Fathers and the First Great Battle over Church and State
by Forrest Church
Harcourt, 530 pp
_________________
(My experience has been that these individuals cannot be moved by facts or books
if you recall, only the disillusionment of the Hitler-Stalin pact finally dented the the faith the Reds had in the Party.)
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#103, Xie_Ming;
Here, again, it would be good to hear from what is politely called the "Christian right".
---
I think you did in the last thread. That person didn't appreciate your hostility and bigoted rhetoric. It's hard to attract debate partners when you are in essence saying, "Any of you deluded cretins want to argue with me?"
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110. bethpa: Thanks for the link. My judgment is that the law enforcement there is probably as bad as the politics were before Palin.
Her ex-brother-in-law sounds like a discipline problem without the discipline.
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112. allmymarbles: "I think there should be a national referendum on abortion, with only women allowed to vote. We all know what the result would be."
I don't think I know at all. There are many more women with misgivings about abortion than you realize. I'm not ready to assume I know what lies in women's hearts.
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#112 AMM
Good idea. Funny how "taking an unborn child/life" is considered up there with genocide...yet these same people are happy to allow the fully grown born child, to swing by the gallows or fry in chair....so much for sanctity of life!
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# 113
I would say "no", you would say "why?" and then we would have to start with the criteria.
I asked a question on the other thread that was too outlandish for the mentalities there-
Some people in India wear face masks and sweep before them to try and avoid as much killing of life as possible.
Nearly all cells are living, why do we claim that cells within homo sapiens are special?
etc.
I wonder at what point opinions will differ significantly?
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If you believe in intelligent design, then who created the designer? The randomness of natural selection provides a logical answer to the question of how the earth as we know it came to be.
Intelligent design or its cousin, creationism, doesn't pass the sniff test.
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# 111
Bravo for those numbers!
It seems that about five percent of the population has moved away from the
religious spin!
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#112, AMM;
You might be surprised.
A January 2003 CBS News/New York Times poll found womens opinion was that 37% wanted abortion generally available, 37% available, but with stricter limits than now, and 24% not permitted.
That would be 61% not permitted, or with stricter limits.
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#121, belleenstein:
That argument works the other way too. If you don't believe in a designer, where did it all come from? We don't observe matter spontaneously appearing in our universe.
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119. kecsmar: "Funny how "taking an unborn child/life" is considered up there with genocide...yet these same people are happy to allow the fully grown born child, to swing by the gallows or fry in chair....so much for sanctity of life!"
Which religions support capital punishment?
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# 123
NYC has a lot of Orthodox and Catholics.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
120. Xie_Ming: "I would say "no", you would say "why?" and then we would have to start with the criteria."
And I would say it is not possible to have an honest discussion with you in the manner in which I communicate. You will have to find someone else.
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#113. AndreainNY: "Let's start at the end, when the baby is "terminated". Is that baby killed?" The use of the word 'baby' is an emotional appeal to persuade the gullible that cells dividing are actually "life". The child that was murdered in this dreadful case was a baby - but considering that its mother didn't want it, wouldn't it have been better to terminate - indeed, kill - the cells nine months earlier? I don't think being cooked alive in a microwave oven is a viable alternative.
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#123. RealFrigid: Using your figures, your arithmetic is wrong: 37% of women want abortion available and 37% want it available under certain conditions - that's 74% who want abortion - the termination of a pregnancy. That leaves 26% who do not want it under any circumstances.
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#125ANY
where do I say religions support capitol punishment?
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#124
First cause is a matter of cosmology, not of evolution.
From basic Hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and electric discharges matter can form (as has been experimentally done)
From there, random evolution can progress.
Again, calling a first cause a "Designer" with a capital D is totally inappropriate, and the infinite regression is the same as it was in Aristotle's day.
Evolution proceeds without need for a designer.
First causes are for philosophers and cosmologists.
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#130, David_Cunard:
Let's keep the murder separate, because it really is unrelated.
The use of the word "baby" is perfectly acceptable if the mother wants the baby. I knew of no mothers who refer to their newly conceived babies as "cells", as in, "We're pregnant with a clump of cells!" or "We're going to have a baby just as soon as it grows past this clump of cells stage."
I am not "appealing" to anyone when I call a newly conceived child a "baby". It's simply how it is referred to when the baby is wanted.
The definition changes when the baby is unwanted. Then it's no longer a "baby" but a cellular structure.
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#120, XM
"I asked a question on the other thread that was too outlandish for the mentalities there-"
There you go, thinking you are all superior. Maybe when people ignore you it's not because you've stumped them. Maybe it's because your over intellectualized posts are unclear, boring, insulting, or worse antagonistic to entire classes of people to which you disagree.
I'll repeat, in case you missed my answer.
"Does my rationale matter, I am a subject to the law. Law is the social contract by which establishes my value to society and in return by which I allow myself to be restrained by the norms of society. Therefore, for a rationale of why the law protects humanity over insects is an argument you have with the societies of the world and not me. Perhaps in India, they would have a social contract which protects the lives of insects."
How does my answer imply your question "too outlandish for the mentalities"? Individuals contribute to a societal norms, these become laws, that is it. We all live with "laws" with which we don't entirely agree.
If Jains were a majority, they may have laws protecting the lives of all life.
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#132, kecsmar:
My apologies. Who are "these same people" you referred to in #119.
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If you listen to the SBC fundies, they seem to support capital punishment.
Until quite recently, all the major religions did.
I believe that the Quakers never did, nor the Amish and Mennonites.
The Puritans, of course, were quite assiduous- think of the Salem witch trials.
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#125 Andrea
The Southern Baptists support the death penalty
"Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida, June 13?14, 2000, support the fair and equitable use of capital punishment by civil magistrates as a legitimate form of punishment for those guilty of murder or treasonous acts that result in death; "
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=299
and there is some really convoluted reasoning at that link imo...
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#133, Xie_Ming;
First causes are for philosophers and cosmologists.
---
Finally, we agree on something! Theology is not science.
Asking "who designed the Designer", and is a first cause question.
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Because of the one-child policy in China, millions and millions of female fetuses were aborted.
Of course that left a lot of young men without mates.
Now, if the first child is a girl, they get to try again.
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Does it ever occur to any of you that mocking, ridiculing and insulting the religious faith of another nation's citizens is a very bizarre way to spend your time?
Surely you must have more productive things to do than to criticize and judge people you know virtually nothing about?
There is always the option of simply minding your own business.
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Mormons neither support nor oppose capital punishment
""The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards the question of whether and in what circumstances the state should impose capital punishment as a matter to be decided solely by the prescribed processes of civil law. We neither promote nor oppose capital punishment."
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All,
Perhaps, if you are the praying kind, a prayer for N'orleans would be appropriate?
Goodluck all, and Godspeed.
Sad Sam
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Also, XM,
"From basic Hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and electric discharges matter can form (as has been experimentally done)"
This is altering existing matter, not creating new matter. Where matter comes from is a scientific question, but without any observable phenomena to support anything but a philosophical answer.
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Islam supports the death penalty
http://islam.about.com/cs/law/a/c_punishment.htm
"In Islam, therefore, the death penalty can be applied by a court as punishment for the most serious of crimes. Ultimately, one's eternal punishment is in God's hands, but there is a place for punishment in this life as well."
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131. David_Cunard and 123. RealFrigid:
Pro-choicers fight any conditions in order to prevent the right to an abortion from slipping away, one small condition at a time. But women, generally, are not quite as unconditionally supportive of abortion as those who fight the fight.
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#134. AndreainNY: "The definition changes when the baby is unwanted. Then it's no longer a "baby" but a cellular structure." Then it's OK to kill a cellular structure? Sounds like a chink in your argument. The baby murder is very relevant - have you any idea what pain that baby (a real one) must have suffered? If there has to be some kind of termination, then I think it should be done well before the baby is born. The young woman concerned may not have had the facility available to make use of it or possibly she was encouraged by her family to take it to term. Now she is liable for the death penalty, all because she couldn't abort the 'cellular structure'. Isn't there something wrong with that picture?
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#134, AndreainNY:
35 states recognize fetal homicide from conception, 25 apply the principle throughout the period of pre-natal development, while 10 establish protection at some later stage.
Feticide is considered a crime in most states, except when its done by the mother and you call it abortion.
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The Assemblies of God are worried that life time incarceration will cost too much in taxes
"One of the alternatives to capital punishment for a despicable crime such as murder is life imprisonment without parole. Life imprisonment without parole for these criminals ensures their future victims, if any, would not be innocent law-abiding citizens. However, the cost of such lifetime maintenance and the number of criminals needing incarceration are genuine concerns for a society that is already heavily taxed."
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/contempissues_08_capital_punish.cfm
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#131, David_Cunard :
It would be better if you just looked up the poll and made your own conclusions.
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The Evangelical Lutheran Church can't make up its mind about the death penalty
"This church has not finished its deliberation on the death penalty. Members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America continue the deliberation, upholding together the authority of Scripture, creeds, and confessions; the value of God-given life; and the commitment to serve God's justice. Members continue their discussion, knowing they have in common the goals of justice, peace, and order."
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Death-Penalty.aspx
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The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod supports the death penalty
"Therefore be it Resolved, That The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod declare that capital punishment is in accord with the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions."
https://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2112
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#136ANY
"..."these same people" ..."
I suppose if you wish to turn this on its head, in so much as those who are against abortion, are the "religious" minded, since they often quote lines of text from a book that has been published many times which implies they should not "take a life". It becomes their code for life...once can also easily state that a majority of such like-minded people live in the southern and central regions of the states. One such state is Texas. Plenty of houses where every Sunday these like minded people gather and slap each other on the back and sing for their beliefs most vocally...
The population of Texas is around 23million. The number of church goes in Texas is around 13million.
This is the state that also has the highest rate of executions by capitol punishment.
So, a state that has more than 50% of its population belonging to a religion, i wonder what the odds are of those being involved in instigating and recommending capitol punishment and carrying out capitol punishment, being non-religious?
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141. TimothyR444: It goes with the territory. Always lots of Christian bashing in liberal forums.
The irony is that this often comes in the next breath after Americans are lectured for not being aware enough of other cultures.
Even Americans find nothing incongruous in their denigrating Americans as ignorant and then calling religious Christians fanatics.
Perhaps if we were more 'worldly', we'd be able to see just how ridiculous these Christians are, eh?
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#140, Xie_Ming:
Because of the one-child policy in China, millions and millions of female fetuses were aborted.
---
Not just foeticide, but infanticide is also out of control in China and India.
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# 135
Social contract theory and, especially, Rousseau, are wide of the mark.
In the military, "orders" are a reason and need not have a rationale known to the one who obeys.
As a matter of logic, it would be good to decide and declare the explicit rationale by which homo sapiens is deemed special.
(As of the moment, there is agitation to have chimps declared part of the genus homo and, also, to give certain orders of animals human rights)
Saying that something is "conventional" is a reason, but not really a rationale.
We do, today, have laws concerning "human life", but there are vast differences concerning when the cells become a human being.
Or, under what circumstances a human being can be done away with.
So many statements here are the result of reflex rather than reflection.
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Life is a continual process of growth and development from the moment of conception. It is no more proper to say that life begins at birth, than it is to say that life begins at puberty.
It's funny, when the pro-lifer says that the unborn child has its own separate DNA code, a heartbeat, as early as 18 days, and a separate blood type, it's the abortionist who brings up religion, and calls people nutters.
I used to live in New Orleans, and I remember a pro-life bumper sticker written in the vernacular.
Your mama was pro-life, darlin'!
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I must first point out that I am not an American citizen though I follow the politics, especially this election which looks fascinatingly different from the past ones.
Starting off with Obama, he is a superb orator and the Convention speech was unbelievably good. It seemed to have something for everybody to feel happy about. Maybe because I don't know the details but it seemed to me that the deficit would become even wider if he really delivered his suggestions about health-care, education, stopping import of oil in ten years and also reducing taxes on I think 95% of families. Won't jacking up the taxes on the remaining 5% not make them too happy? Obama also mentioned cutting down on corporate benefits but it does seem to me that he is promising things to make everybody feel happy but where is the money coming from? Is this a sensible strategy or was it only meant to make the Dem supporters at the stadium feel happy instantly without thinking how it would work.
He also seemed to indicate that he would raise the troop levels in Afghanistan and get Bin Laden. He previously has mentioned even going into Pakistan but this seems a very dangerous idea, especially with the change of Government in Pakistan. Obama also talked about Iran so I wonder if the number of people on overseas duty may in fact significantly increase compared to the present.
Biden of course is a very experienced politician and brings in a lot of experience to the ticket. However, this action seems to indicate that even Obama realises he lacks foreign affairs experience.
McCain of course is a maverick and I really will have to hear him on the debates to understand his views since the RNC is likely to be a subdued affair because of Gustav. Since these conventions tend to give a boost to the party, it presumably will be to the disadvantage of the Republicans.
Palin of course is the big unknown. I had also thought that he would choose a woman and I was thinking that Condaleeza would have been a great choice because of her experience and gender.
As noted by most people, this will significantly reduce the Republican attack on Obama's inexperience. All the same, it seems that 'inexperience' is of much greater importance to a President than a VP since since presumably the latter will have some time to learn the ropes while the former will be on the main stage from Day 1.
However, the choice clearly jumps ahead of the Democratic idea of change as she has not had any exposure to Washington and will be a real change from the normal politician.
It will be interesting to see what role Palin plays in the campaign. The debates will help clarify what these 4 politicians really stand for as it would help the independents to make up their minds.
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#157, Billy2USA: Religion is the cause of all our problems. After Bush, of course. ;-)
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Andrea: "It goes with the territory. Always lots of Christian bashing in liberal forums."
I suppose you're right - but these are not even Americans. They are Brits deciding how Americans should think, believe, respond, behave and vote.
After reading several dozen of these angry, bitter and malicious posts I am starting to think they have nothing better to do with their lives.
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The Christian religion has imo been perverted and used for purposes other than those given in the New Testament.
So some people others might call "religious"I would call charlatans and hiding behind the wall of religious "tolerance " while they are not following imo Christian values.
Imo these people are NOT Christians and I oppose them...
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# 157
Life is a continual process before conception-
you are made of of billions of living cells.
Sperm can get into an egg in a test tube, too. If you drop the test tube, is it homicide?
The point is that parroting religious cliches is not adequate.
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#141. TimothyR444: "There is always the option of simply minding your own business." Which is precisely what pro-choice persons (and others) want. The don't want central government to tell them what they cannot do because it offends their religious views. Morality should be of no concern to government officials; what's done in the privacy of one's own home or hospital room should not be dictated by the Sarah Palins of the world - it is they who should mind their own business!
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Jay Dubya,
Now your a outlet for misinformation and bias,.. sad, actually thought you were better than that.
Just what may a President do to affect the "abortion" policies, what is a VP apt to do? Nada. You got it.......Nada, nothing, no change, no bill nor a wasted minute.
You are the most uniformed of all possible reporters of political and operations of the US government as I hgave ever seen. You should step down. Do place this diatribe into public domain is unconsciencable, as pertandent and viable 'knowlege' of which you don't posses. Pitiful to say the least for a Brit.
In the States so much is at sake, and to make an issue of,... religion, your country deserves Sha'ria law, as you've lost all credibility with me as even a commentator,... sir, and I use that as lightly as possible with no respect, I'm out of here, only to answer and ask of other bloggers, not of you.
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Now, what is it we can't write about here?
1. Chappaquidick, the death of an innocent girl, and the lionization last week of the man responsible for that death?
2. The middle name of a Presidential candidate?
3. The behaviour of a former President in the Oval Office toward a female subordinate? He was also lionized last week, was he not?
We can't refer to the factual record about the public figures honored last week?
My question is: Do we turn this country over to the kind of people who cheer for the people referenced above?
Can we write about that, perhaps?
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#150. RealFrigid wrote: "It would be better if you just looked up the poll and made your own conclusions." Why should I - you provided the figures. If you had wanted any of us here to check the veracity of them, you could have posted a link.
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Bethpa, this is for you:
There is a chance that the country will continue down the slope begun by Bush.
In that case, would it be Russia, China, India, or Europe who would take over the lead of civilization-
or possibly, a move of the UN to Montreal or Strasbourg and the beginnings of effective World government?
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But them I am not supposed to judge others...by Christian beliefs (Matthew7:1)
In any case just because someone says they are a Christian and then gives opinions which are odious ...just don't ask others to NOT criticize..because that is your religious view.
My views are based also in Christianity and I am tired of hearing that liberals do not even believe in God! from nationalists wrapping themselves in the American flag and beating others up with their own religious beliefs.
I'm an American..not British
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#156, Xie_Ming :
Of course social contracts and law have a role in understanding why humans alone have the right to life.
As we often witness, laws are not always banners of logic, but are more often a reflection of societal norms. Often it is the judiciaries responsibility is to protect the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. In western culture, the tradition and resulting law cede legal status, in regards to life and liberty, to humans. This is a big step actually, because not so long ago it was only given to Caucasian male property owners. All other life was considered chattel, or property and possessions of Caucasian male property owners.
I could guess at the "rationale" of western society, but I wouldn't claim to speak for us all. Homo sapiens are special in western culture, because they believe themselves to be and have enacted that right in law. No usurpers from the other biological Kingdoms have argued, or challenged humanities right to be ruler of the universe (that I know of). The Jains may be a group that would like to argue for social justice for disenfranchised life forms. Animal rights activists argue for social justice for disenfranchised animals.
All in all, it is a pretty silly proposition. It is what it is, and it is not likely to change unless the mentality of the society shifts to a Jainist philosophy.
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118, Andrea.
OK, I'll take my chances. But let's have that referendum on abortion. Remember, only women can vote.
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Sarah Palin must be asked if she really believes that creationism should be taught in science class - not just in school, which is always the appropriate venue for any topic of educational value. She must make her view clear on this matter, because science teaching in the States is going to wither and die if fundamentalist doctrine regains the influence it had in 15th and 16th century Europe.
She should also be challenged about whether her rigidly-held view on abortion rights is going to translate into her imposing those views on all citizens of the US.
In summary, the US media have really got to put away their powder-puff interview questions and get with the Hard Talk.
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#164
Doug,
Appoint Supreme Court Justices.
Period.
Sam
#168
Amen to that. To be a Christian one does actually have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Peace be with you, Beth.
#165, olds.
No we cannot, because if we did we would have to look at the 'youth'and addictions of our current Commander in Chief. And be disgusted.
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#167 Xie_Ming
If the US can not get back on the right track then I think it will be groupings of nations that will move towards human rights.
I'm not sure how global warming will occur and that will have the greatest effect upon our future.
But yes I'm an internationalist and believe in a world government following human rights principles...but that won't happen in my lifetime.
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# 164
Doug
Either on this thread or the previous one, I posted a long excerpt from the NYRB,
the gist of it is that the Republicans have all promised to appoint judges that will repeal Roe v. Wade
If you read what Richard Lamb of the SBC is up to, he going full blast for anti-choice candidates.
Your attack on JW is unwarranted, your idea that Roe vs. Wade is not under attack is a misconception.
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Google-fu for the internet challenged.
"Seventy-seven percent of respondents said abortion should either be generally available, or available but with stricter limits than now. Just 22 percent said abortion should not be permitted. "
January 2003 CBS News/New York Times poll on abortion
Also, David, poll stats don't always add up to 100% because some people say "no comment". You can't assume the missing percent is on your side.
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#168, bethpa: I suspect a lot of this anger at Christians stems from the perception that one has been judged and rejected by Christians. Ditto the anger at Republicans.
In their anger at these groups, people do the very same thing against which they rail. They demonize, criticize and judge -- all the things they supposedly abhor. Then they stop listening and become closed-minded. Soon they can't hear anything but what they believe.
If they're not careful, they become just like those Christians (or Republicans) whose behavior they detest.
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123, Real.
You can look at it the other way. Only 37 per cent of women were against abortion. I, myself would prefer to put a limit. I would make it available only during the first trimester, and available at any time if the life of the mother were at stake, or if the fetus were abnormal. Is that an arbitrary decision? Yes. So what?
Having said that, if the referendum said "abortion, yes or no." I would vote "yes."
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126, Xie.
Forget the Catholics. You don't understand them. JackForge and I do.
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#164DougT
"Just what may a President do to affect the "abortion" policies, what is a VP apt to do? Nada. You got it.......Nada, nothing, no change, no bill nor a wasted minute."
How quickly you all forget.
On july 20th 2006 Bush vetoed lifting the fund restrictions on human embryonic stem cell research. Citing:
"...would support the taking of innocent human life in the hope of finding medical benefits for others..."
A presidential veto...hmmm....I don't call that Nada, nothing etc...
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127, Sylbia.
You are naive to say that the republicans are using Palin. Politicians use each other. She is no babe in the woods.
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If I recall Roman Law correctly, the father had the power of life and death over his sons as long as he (the father) lived.
Also, the Greeks thought it best to put deformed newborns out to die, etc.
Simply saying that something is customary or legal at a particular time is not to provide a rationale for the rule.
Now, I totally disagree with the idea of extending "Human Rights" to certain classes of non-humans animals. (I would even call it "silly"- but, then, I have not thought it through and a lot of people want to accord them such rights).
If fact, we are animals and cousins to the chimpanzee, apparently our closest living relative.
How far removed does a cousin have to be before you declare the cousin "non-human" or without a right to life?
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Yes, «the backdrop of images of destruction reminding Americans of Katrina will be horrible for Republicans», but pictures of McCain visiting the Gulf Coast will fare better with voters than Obama's distanced approach. Remember it's McCain the Dems are trying to beat here, not Bush. As for Sarah Palin, well, McCain did exactly what he had to do to gain the support of pro-life gun-loving born-again christian voters who are apparently (and sadly) numerous in the US. Surely it is a problem to have a potential president (in case something happens to President McCain) «who denies basic truths about the world». But on the run-up from election victory in November to the swearing ceremony in January next year I don't think McCain will be losing too much sleep over all this.
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# 173
Well, Beth, everything is moving much faster.
We'll see!
And a good-night to all!
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Monday morning I will be waking up to rain and tropical force winds outside my window. Riding out Gustav is what I'm focused on right now, but while I still have power I must say a few things on the topics being discussed.
First, McCain's choice of Palin did infact surprise and immediately rally the base of the GOP, without which McCain would have no chance of winning. Her life experiences as a working mom and an executive do help her relate to working women in America. And, as hard as it is for some to believe, there is such a thing as a strong willed Conservative woman like Palin and that does draw women voters for the very reason women were drawn to Hillary. McCains choice gets 2 thumbs up.
Second, the changes made to the GOP had to happen. I personally would not have been offended if they hadn't made changes, but many would have seen nightmare visions of Katrina all over again. And maybe, just maybe, the canceling of Bush's speech was a God send to the McCain campaign.
Third, from the perspective of a Catholic I in no way believe that evolution and the belief on God are contradictory; in fact, I believe them to be complementary as it is entirely possible that, sense God crafted the natural order of things, it's possible for him to act within those rules - natural disasters and evolution - as well as manipulate the natural order of things - mysteries and miracles. As for Katrina and Gustav, I don't buy the God's wrath arguement at all, though it has been said that God works in mysterious ways and that he gives people the opportunity for betterment rather than bringing it out on a silver platter.
Finally, I think I speak for all Louisianians when I say thank you for keeping us in your prayers. You never know if it's the prayers or a cold spot in the Gulf that work to weaken a storm before landfall, but God knows we sure need both.
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141, Timothy.
The question of religion is simple - either you believe or you don't. If you don't, then all religion is subject to criticism, as well as all the particulars of this thing you don't believe in.
What I do notice, as a general pattern, is that religious people expect tolerance for their beliefs, yet do not offer tolerance to nonbelievers. We are supposed to be sensitive to them, as though they were entitled in some way, or perhaps more moral than we were. I have never equated religiosity with morality.
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Xie_Ming, I am curious to know how much
time you have spent in the US.
A lot of the stuff you put out is like
something an observer on Mars with a
long telescope would come up with.
For your information, "evangelism" and
"fundamentalism" are two distinct things.
Evangelism is the belief that God is alive,
and wants believers to share that knowledge,
particularly by sharing interpretations
of holy scriptures.
Fundamentalism is a particular way of
interpreting the Bible, and there are many
evangelists who are not fundamentalists.
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143, Sam.
I don't pray. I am a card-carrying atheist.
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184. BienvenueEnLouisiana:
Good luck. Be safe. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow.
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Parrisia, what's wrong with "gun-loving?"
You're making "Old Betsy" over my fireplace
look forlorn.
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165, OldSouth.
If you talk about the foibles of the democrats, which I think is fine, then you have to apply the same scrutiny to the republican side. You will find just as much dirt there.
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#185AMM
Exactly!...everyone or thing can be/is subjected to criticism in one form or another, so why is it that religion is especially "vulnerable" to offence and should be protected from such and wants/needs to be protected by a coating of "respect" that is not given to anyone/thing else?
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186, guns.
Thank you for straightening out some of Xie's blather. However, that is just the tip of the iceberg.
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191, kecsmar.
Well let's seei if you and I can level the playing field.
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#193 AMM
we can but try...
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"The question of religion is simple - either you believe or you don't. If you don't, then all religion is subject to criticism, as well as all the particulars of this thing you don't believe in.
What I do notice, as a general pattern, is that religious people expect tolerance for their beliefs, yet do not offer tolerance to nonbelievers. We are supposed to be sensitive to them, as though they were entitled in some way, or perhaps more moral than we were. I have never equated religiosity with morality."
All my marbles:
Spare me the hgh-toned condescending nonsense.
This "discussion" is just junk - old-fashioned, narrow-minded, anti-Christian bigotry and ridicule.
So don't kid yourself that it has any intellectual content.
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192, allmy, it's really sad when someone feels
threatened by someone else's beliefs, whatever
they may be (unless they are really hateful beliefs).
The vast majority of "people of faith" that I know
are secure enough in their beliefs not to feel
threatened when they encounter someone
who does not share those beliefs.
I hope that is not what has happened in
Xie_Ming's case.
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#176 Andrea
I am a Christian ! and a liberal.
Imo Liberals are extremely moral people who are concerned about principles and the rights of others. They are less interested in amassing money for its own sake and are trying to solve large problems about how to care for those less fortunate....and that sounds Christian to me.
Obama seems messianic BECAUSE liberals are religious and spiritual. Liberals believe in something more than winning and beating the other guy...They have a sense of moral obligation to the community and humanity.
#183 Xie
Yes global warming is moving very quickly.
#172 Sam
Peace be with you also Sam. I think you understood my frustration...
"To be a Christian one does actually have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ". (Sam quote)
The Christian religion is very easy to accept but very tough to live...and it merges more easily with pacifism than with war and capitalism. That creates some moral dillemmas for some of us.
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I think #196 and #195 need to have a discussion which "view" is correct!
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#165 OldSouth "Do we turn this country over to the kind of people who cheer for the people referenced above?" That's a dangerous question - consider Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, Dan Quayle - not the kind of people to lionize. There might also be questions about Ronald Reagan who appears to have had the beginnings of Alzheimer's Disease in his second term - the Republicans have just as many "skeletons" as the Democrats.
#175. RealFrigid - I'm not "internet challenged" in the least, but if you're going to quote something and cite its figures, at least provide the link as you are obviously able to do. But, contrary to your interpretation, perhaps you didn't want us to read what the article said: "Seventy-seven percent of respondents said abortion should either be generally available, or available but with stricter limits than now. Just 22 percent said abortion should not be permitted." Game, set and match!
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196. guns.
I do not understand the workings of a mind like Xie's. What I do feel is that he is a religious zealot - but one who has substituted politics.
I ran across this type long ago when I was very young. It was during the McCarthy era. As hateful as McCarthy was, the far left was just as bad. They all spoke as if they had a script - and they all had the same script. Their brains were like blocks of stone. Having a discussion with them was not possible.
I have often wondered what it was that made them, and Xie, proscelitizing fanatics.
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"As for Sarah Palin! Her creationist views are bound to become an issue (can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?). But far more politically explosive will be her views on abortion, apparently against it in ALL circumstances."
Not for the first time you make a statement about origins which you cannot justify. Significantly you do not even attempt to do so. What is there in 'creationist views' which 'denies basic truths about the world'? It is the theory of evolution which is notorious for denying basic truths about the world, opposing as it does the laws of thermodynamics.
Is it not clear evidence of the sinful state of society that defending the rights of the unborn should be deemed a controversial thing? It is unspeakably sad that politicians who permit and promote the killing of the unborn are viewed as 'normal'.
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195, Timothy.
Thank you. You have just proved my point.
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Whether abortion is murder or not all hinges on when the soul enters the body of a fetus.
I don't know when that is and neither does anyone else imo
This is not something a government should be involved with regulating. This is a personal decision.
People who want to help women to chose to complete their pregnancies should help organizations that help women during and after a pregnancy.
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allmy, in spite of my belief in some things
which I cannot prove scientifically, I do not
feel threatened when I meet someone
who does not share those beliefs.
What is not amazing is that people believe
in God. I believed in Santa until I was
4 or 5 years old. What I find quite amazing
(and what I do not expect you to believe)
is that God believes in us.
That's something that is not stressed
in most religions - the concept that humankind,
flawed and divided as it obviously is, can
ascend to a higher level.
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200, politics was the religion of the early
postwar era. On the one hand, we had the
hard-core communists like Stalin and Mao.
On the other hand, we had neo-nazis like
McCarthy.
God was just a football for them. I don't
know where people like that wind up,
but it isn't in the end zone.
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A thousand years ago it was the truth.
Two hundred years ago it was revealed knowledge.
A hundred years ago it was creationism.
Now it's intelligent design.
What's next, non-stochastic chain of events?
Now that's progress!
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#203
When the what..???..what is a soul...where does it come from, can i buy one, what does it look like???....ahhhh...see, it is an assumption based upon your religious belief that everyone has a soul. But i, like many, do not subscribe to your belief.
Ergo, there is no soul and hence no murder...
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Palins view on abortion does not bother me ,many people in government can separate their
personal beliefs from real world needs. A ban on abortion sounds good to some but the reality would be a step back in time that nobody of either party would accept. The issue
is a tool to scare people. The most important issues this year should be fiscal and in that respect Palin is far more palatable than either
dem. God wont pay your bills no matter what
church you attend.
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201, David Blunt.
You speak from religious conviction and you are intitled to your views. But there are those of us who are not religious. We are also entitled to our views.
The difference between us is that you would force your views on us, but we would not force our views on you.
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BTW, why aren't we having more fun with Trig and Track?
Ah, Trig and Track. Brings back fond memories of sophomore year.
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I thought I'd throw this scuttlebutt into the mix. True or not, is should make interesting reading elsewhere during the next few days. The comments are as interesting as the allegation.
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204, 205, guns.
I have no problem with people who believe in god. I guess most people do. However, I do have a problem when the religious beliefs of others are forced on me, and I feel very strongly that religion has no place in government. It should be a private affair.
As to Xie, the truly odd note is that he is out of sync with the times.
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205, guns.
To put it another way, I only become militant when someone is trespassing on my rights.
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#213, as you should be! Or, to repeat
a very common definition, "Your rights
end where my nose begins." (possibly
a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes).
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#211, David_C, you have not kept up with
the times.
It's a new baby type developed by Intel
or AMD. It's amazing what can be done
with miniaturization these days...
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There is already a whole forest of comments on Sarah Palin. But none on Cindy McCain.
Cindy was brilliant when she said,
"Sarah is of course knowledgeable on foreign affairs. Alaska is right next to Russia."
Perhaps, should the millionairess not be more concerned that: now, the beauty queen of not so long ago is right next to her husband?
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Dear Oh Dear.. Oh Dear...215 Comments on a country of millions of fools choosing a couple of fools to represent them. 215 comments from people clammering to force their opinions on one another regarding Gods and Artificial intelligence...
All we need now is the Catholic Church to weigh in with their diatribe and Monty Python to write a film script.....Oh!...Wait.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm sure that you Dems out there thought
that the future would look like "West Wing"
complete with a hand-wringing liberal
president.
But who knows? It could turn out to be
more like a cross between "Northern Exposure"
and "The Beverly Hillbillies."
It's going to be interesting, in any case.
And as for you borocol, we don't even want
to know what your idiotic opinions may
be - we have enough of our own.
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I wonder who the Daddy is?
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For me the negative side of Palin's creationists views isn't that she has those beliefs, which is fine, but it is that she would have them taught alongside evolution as part of science lessons. Now I'm not an expert in education, but shouldn't the teaching of science be based on facts that have been tested and proven? Replacing science with religion would take us back towards the dark ages, when the church ruled and oppressed the people, using the bible as their weapon. Is there an english word for Madrassa? I think there's also a constitutional amendment that prohibits this; it's the one that comes before the one about the guns. Typical right-wing nut-job selectively editing the constitution.
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The debate in the last 2 topics has gone from VP choices to science education to 'styles' of regular contributors. A thought about that before getting back on topic. In the last topic, Xie, you said that Americans would not be as tolerant as the BBC. Actually most Americans are pretty tolerant of free speech; it is a minority that seem to be strident and selective about basic rights. They are the same Americans who forget that the ACLU protects the constitutional rights of all Americans, whether we agree with them or not... Xie was just among several regulars getting picked on a bit; can't we try not to pick on individuals about style and stick more to the substance of each posting?
I would like to see Gov. Palin's executive experience put into perspective with some discussion of how representative the Alaskan economy is of the economies of the other 49 states. I think that the amount has decreased from something like $5,000 to maybe more like $1,000, but doesn't Alaska still pay an annual royalty-sharing check to established residents? How many other governors manage a budget and revenue basis anything like Alaska's?
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I just watched a taped interview of Sarah Palin when she was "seven months pregnant" (only days before her announcement). It's not only that she doesn't show, but also that she is whizzing along outside at a fast pace, in bad weather, with her interviewer. When you get that pregnant you are a little clumsy and maybe your walk changes. Not her! She was not pregnant.
They claim that many of her pictures have been removed from sites.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#221, it's quite astonishing how many
Americans don't understand the Constitution.
Of course, if we taught them how to
read, that might be a step in the right
direction.
#223, allmy, it is my understanding that
Spartan women were like that.
Is it possible that American women could
emulate Spartans from now on, instead
of Athenians? Perhaps they would even
pay half on dates from now on, and even
keep the house clean when the dishwasher
breaks.
Just a thought...
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Post 225 gunsandreligion
Interesting comment on the Spartans. Perhaps McCain is planning a remake of 300 with himself holding the pass against the "evil hordes of Persia"? He even has the theme song "bomb Iran, bomb bomb Iran."
PS The original film "The 300 Spartans" is much more fun....
PPS Leonidas does make nice chocolates.
You're all doing very well !!
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BBC moderators, don't be shy:
As Justin said, it is a matter of 'Events';
Biden chosen for his decency and experience;
Yesterday's news soon cold;
Gustav today, Hanna by the weekend;
Another day, another scandal;
Truth or dare is how politicians fall.
Each person judged for their honesty.
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an early poll result on Palin is here.
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To gunsandreligion:
Perhaps also a welcome return for the laconic comment from women. My favourite was in a drama I saw some years ago wherein a middle-aged woman, describing a (invited) sexual encounter with a teenage boy described it as “mercifully brief”.
It is interesting to me the way religions are like political parties. You seem to have to take the whole package. You have to be a “Christian” or whatever and it appears irreligious for someone to take only some of the views of the religion.
Well, that is what I do. I have morality from all over the place and some of my own. I am not a Jain but I am a vegan because I like animals and I want to cause them as little trouble as I can. I do try not to tread on insects if I can avoid it. Still, I have an immune system that will kill bacteria which are life forms whether I like it or not. I am probably mostly Buddhist.
I have a question for the Christians, in that you are happy with that label.
I studied “Connectionism”, a topic in the broad swathe of Psychology, some years ago. That is the use of computers to imitate human brains – especially in the areas of language and vision but it has expanded now. It is, after all, human brains with their self-awareness which distinguish us from other animals.
In many years time – probably 100 or more – we will be able to imitate human brains exactly using machines. They will learn, like babies and grow in knowledge and awareness. There are those who argue against the mere possibility of this because of human uniqueness. Not least Penrose (professor of Mathematics at Oxford) in “The Emperor’s New Mind”. I believe not only that they are wrong but that they are taking an essentially religious position – although Penrose argues human uniqueness from Quantum Physics. You had to be there.
bethpa has it exactly right, I think, when she says that the issue in abortion is when the soul enters the body.
The question is, will these machines have a soul ? They will probably not look like humans but they will be able to do all that the human brain does in the same way as the human brain does it.
Please do not dismiss these simply as “computers”. Currently, computers are almost entirely digital. They only know black and white whether in macro or micro scale. Human beings are neurologically incapable of being digital. In short, pretty much no-one is ever 100% certain of anything. You could give something a probability of 99.9% recurring but there is always room for doubt. It is why “I think therefore I am” was quite a big leap – but you could still be a fgiment of someone else’s imagination (0.000001% doubt).
Incidentally, I am not talking about machines made out of stem cells or anything like that. These will be entirely artificial devices.
To whoever said that religion makes you simply believe or not – well, no. Religion moves. Galileo was imprisoned for many years because he said the Earth moved around the Sun. How many catholics say that now ?
In Catholicism, celibacy in the priesthood and across Christianity the view of homosexuality are both currently under attack. Those positions may well move.
I should add that I am pro-choice and anti capital punishment. I would be happy to explain either of those but it would make this even more long and boring..
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#229, chill0:
In Catholicism, an entirely hierarchical structure, all must submit to papal authority in regards to religious doctrine and theology. They have implemented the principle of Church infallibility, which is why Galileo was imprisoned, for the heresy of telling the church they were wrong. The Catholic church may be wrong, but only they are allowed to admit it. It will be a long time before Catholics budge on either celibacy or Homosexuality, although there will be segments of the church that strongly disagree, much like the Anglicans.
"I should add that I am pro-choice and anti capital punishment. I would be happy to explain either of those but it would make this even more long and boring."
So from the Catholic point of view, you advocate killing babies, but not mass murderers.
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gunsandreligion, no 219, made me chuckle.
Still can't believe that some people on here seem to be recommending that anyone who has their home destroyed in the upcoming weather (and lets hope they don't) should not have it rebuilt.
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#203, bethpa:
"Whether abortion is murder or not all hinges on when the soul enters the body of a fetus.
I don't know when that is and neither does anyone else imo"
This is why it is hard for a secular establishment like government to try to make just laws that please both secular and theological concerns. Marriage, being another place that government has unfortunately entwined itself.
For the record, an atheist would say that murder is when one person kills another. They just claim that a baby in the womb is not a person.
"This is not something a government should be involved with regulating. This is a personal decision."
Well, not so simple. Say a women is pregnant, joyfully. If another person assaults her and causes the baby to die should that person be punished? Societies going back to 400BC thought so, and modern law also punishes feticide. The government needs to protect all citizens, so it is important for the government to have a good definition on when citizenship begins.
"People who want to help women to chose to complete their pregnancies should help organizations that help women during and after a pregnancy. "
Agreed, pro-lifers and pro-choicers would do better to spend their time and resources making abortion unnecessary.
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#226, Y-M-R, Leonidas just didn't have enough
air power. But, of course, McCain can solve that,
assuming that he doesn't get shot down prematurely.
#227, MFO, that was really quite good, and
now, of course, we shall expect further
poetic reportage in the future. Have you
considered the "rap" beat?
#229, chill0, I can't address many of your questions,
but as far as the AI thing goes, I am somewhat
of a pioneer in the field, and also a theist.
Penrose made a point, based on how computers
worked back then, but now that Quantum
Computing is coming along, everything is
back on the table. I never really bought
his argument because a certain amount
of randomness is necessary in any complex
system.
I remember discussing this issue back in the
70's with a friend who is now a minister, and
he remarked, "If you create life, you'll have
to save it."
Oh, and for the rest of it you sound like a conflicted
individualist, a sign of the current age. However,
it is better than having "industrial disease," as
Dire Straits called it, because while there is
no cure for either, at least you can revel in your
uniqueness.
And, with that I will have to bid you all a good night.
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I don't have a problem with politicians changing their positions on issues important to our society, but I do have a serious problem when they abandon their convictions, whether religious or political, for the exclusive purpose of advancing their agenda and achieving their goals.
Gov. Palin's selection on the basis of gender and religious convictions was as cynical as the introduction of her husband during a recent meeting in Pennsylvania when Sen. McCain delighted the blue collar crowd by introducing him as a proud member of the Steelworkers union! Coming from a GOP candidate that act was as close to sacrilege as you can get without addressing religion.
I doubt Xerxes is too worried about the possibility of McCain becoming President, even when we consider that the 300 Spartans are just a metaphor for "we reserve the right to keep all options open", but we ought to be worried. Character may be an attribute that is often over sold when applied to politicians, but it remains one of the most defining pre-requisites to be a good and honest leader.
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#222, bluejay60:
Good point. I was thinking as well that Governor is an executive job, while legislator is a committee job.
Palin has a mere 2 years experience leading. How much experience does Obama have leading?
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#207, kecsmar:
"When the what..???..what is a soul...where does it come from, can i buy one, what does it look like???"
It looks like God, only smaller.
"....ahhhh...see, it is an assumption based upon your religious belief that everyone has a soul. But i, like many, do not subscribe to your belief. Ergo, there is no soul and hence no murder..."
I would venture that most people believe in many phenomena they cannot observe. Heisenberg, and Schroedinger makes this a scientific axiom. Anyone studying quantum phenomena work in an area where detection and proof become nay impossible.
There is room for more than strict empiricism in the world of philosophy. Perhaps, you might be more open minded. You've seen no evidence either proving or disproving the existence of a soul. Skepticism is also a valid philosophy.
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To RealFrigid
Only very narrowly. It is actually papal infallibility and only when speaking on faith and morals ex cathedra, which means he has to mean it.
I was brought up Catholic, I went to a Catholic school (and you, sir… O no sorry not that debate) and studied Catholic philosophy and ecclesiastical history. I always had a problem with faith. The problem was, I didn’t have any. The priest who was our main philosophy teacher and who was very well qualified would say “…it’s a mystery…”
Yes, that is exactly right. The problem with that is that you know better what you are killing with the baby than with the mass murderer. The person you are killing may not be the mass murderer.
Even if you are sure you have the right person, capital punishment militates against the ideas of forgiveness, personal redemption or even rehabilitation to put it in social terms.
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@230 Real Frigid.
The paradox of being pro-choice and anti-death penalty is matched by the hypocrisy of being pro-life and pro-death penalty. That's just a general point, I'm not predicting your views.
In my opinion it's sometimes difficult to rationalise why we hold the opinions we do, so sometimes we're going to have to accept someone's view on spec, even if it contradicts what we personally feel to be true.
On the question of when life begins and what constitutes a life, who knows? I certainly don't. Lets allow people to make this judgement for themselves. However, I can't believe that the decision to abort a pregnancy is ever taken lightly. I know two people who have for reasons of their own personal circumstances considered having an abortion, but neither could bring themselves to do it. Both are now happy, loving mothers.
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Ref 235
The reason Obama appeals to many of us has nothing to do with experience, although I admit that I consider lack of Washington experience a plus, but his vision of what needs to be done both domestically and internationally, and because many of us agree with his proposals.
Sen. McCain's congressional record is clearly moderate and bipartisan on domestic issues, but his positions on foreign policy are wrong and should concern everyone. When you add imponderables such as his age and medical problems, his acknowledged ignorance of economic matters, and the questionable judgment he demonstrated when he picked Gov. Palin as his running mate, the only conclusion I can reach is that he is not suited for the presidency.
Gov. Palin's executive record as Mayor of a town of 6.000 people may qualify her for a commissioner position in a large city where some of her attributes and commitment would be an asset in repairing potholes and allocating funds for the local public library, and while her 18-month tenure as Governor of Alaska demonstrate confidence on the part of the citizens of that state in her ability to handle local problems, I don't believe those experiences are relevant for a person that may very well be responsible for managing the domestic and foreign policies of our country, and our national security.
Frankly, I doubt a crash course from her experienced mentor on world geography and sectarian issues will do her much good.
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#143,sam.
I will do that....
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#181, Xie_Ming :
I too actually believe in a limited set of natural rights for animals. They have a right to not experience cruel and unusual treatment. They have the right when in human care, to be well treated and kept "happy" (in an anthropomorphic sense). In the wild, animals have a right to habitat, and human domestication of land should consider the welfare of the ecosystem.
I would say that when necessary, it is acceptable to kill animals as mercifully as is possible. For example, there was recently a campaign to eradicate an infectious disease spreading through wild deer populations in Wisconsin. They hired sharp shooters to systematically cull the population to halt the spread of a disease that would have resulted in miserable slow death for most of those animals.
It is common for people to use animals as food, or raw materials. I have no issue with "farming" when it is done humanely.
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ref #12
I agree with you on both points.
I lived in NO for two years and they have never been prepared for hurricances and flooding.
How the people of NO could relected the person most responsible for the reaction during Katrina is incredible.
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Regarding Palin's executive experience has anyone noticed that the population of Alaska 600,000+ is about a third more than the English COUNTY of Somerset and half of Lancashire. Would anyone in UK reckon that running a county councill would qualify one from being one step away from leader of the free world?
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ref #239
I can understand your support for Obama on agreeing with his position. (I don't agree with many of them and think he would be a disaster)but I can understand the reasoning.
It's the vision thing. that vision trumpts his qualifications. I heard several gushing about his vision. Well I am a bit more pragmatic and see someone who has not shown the resume. Which nobody seems to want to address.
As far as Palin , yes she is not qualified by resume either, but she has a superior one ot Obama's.
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I am a Buddhist by choice, but I was brought up C of E, and had RE classes from a retired high church Vicar (Priest). I always understood there to be a particular significant moment when a baby was considered to become a member of the church in its own right - the quickening. After all the prayer does say (from memory) 'the quick and the dead'.
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#236R.F.
So many people believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...or Father Christmas...just because THEY believe it doesn't mean i must nor does it mean it exists either!
"...There is room for more than strict empiricism in the world of philosophy. Perhaps, you might be more open minded..."
So, your point being that if something cannot be 100% disproved, or proved, ergo it exists....so, can you prove or disprove to me that there are no little green men on Mars or fairies at the bottom of my garden??...currently, you can't. Just because you can't doesn't make it probably that there is an existence. That is pure nonsense..how does that relate to being open minded?
I can certainly chip away at your hypothesis that god/soul does exist by rational argument, since it is to the contrary with factual evidence...Yet you have no proof that god/soul does exist.
As for your quantum theory..."Anyone studying quantum phenomena work in an area where detection and proof become nay impossible..." You can measure quantum mechanics by other means, not just hocus pocus theory, as you appear to suggest. Otherwise how would such theories come about? Quantum menchanics is simply that, mathematical wave functions of probabilities. The real world is not a probability, it is 100% factual.
So, if you are indeed open minded as you think yourself to be, consider this excellent quote by Sam Harris, which sums it all up...
"We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious"; otherwise they are likely to be called 'mad', 'psychotic' or 'delusional'...clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.."
Do you hear Morse code when it rains...o are you open minded enough to consider that it is just in your imagination??
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#13 ProfCapelo wrote:
justcorbly,
Arguments for creationism (as in, 6-day creationism) is one thing, skepticism about naturalistic evolution- and suggestion of an alternative theory- is another. Fundamentalist 6-day creationists are no less fanatical than fundamentalist natural evolutionists- they are both power-mongers, all too keen to use their dogmas to gain political advantage.
Why are Darwinian cathechists all too keen to prevent the questions from being asked? Whatever happened to free inquiry? 6-day creationism clearly contradict scientific evidence. Iintelligence design, on the other hand is compatible with evolution (not naturalistic evolution), but Darwinists disingenously confound the two, to foster their own agenda.
Give me one positive proof that naturalistic evolution is empirically true, otherwise, ventilate the space, and let the questions be asked...
Here's a few proofs
1) The millions of biological and fossil records that show the clear painfully gradually process of trial and error in naturalistic evolution
2) the "design" flaws in the finished products ie blind spots in the human eye. If there was a intelligent designer, he's a bit stupid.
3) more of a negative but , who the heck designed the designer?
Intelligent design is two things
1) A stealth weapon against science
2) A last gasp from people who know that the biblical creation story is just a myth but who cannot bear to accept that ALL religion is myth
You also referered to Hitler as an atheist in a later post. Here's a few quotes from the man himself
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”
Far from being an atheist he constantly referred to Christianity and claimed that he was a Christian.
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#238, FlacidCasual:
Thanks. Yes, I agree that being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty has equal concerns.
I come to the abortion debate as a libertarian, so I believe in personal responsibility. These unwanted pregnancies are not "immaculate conceptions", so usually their sexual recreation resulted in an unintended consequence. The baby is innocent of any wrong doing, so the "guilt" of the unwanted pregnancy falls only to the adults who initiated it. Special considerations of course apply in those circumstances where the pregnancy is due to rape, or when continuation risks the life of the mother.
Secondly, I believe the baby has the natural right to be protected by law. The decision for the government is when a baby has Constitutional rights.
For me, then thirdly, consideration for the "use of the womb and body" should be given to the mother. Women do have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and that begins with unprotected sex.
Lastly, If the society truly cherishes its new citizen, then it should be prepared to offer free neonatal care and in all other ways provide support for the pregnant women should she not have means.
Regarding the death penalty. The various religious denominations have actually had to grapple, as has been shown, with the issue. It has been mostly a secular matter imposed by the state for heinous crimes. To me it would seem the proper "Christian" view would be to adhere to the very basic tenet to not kill anyone. Lifelong incarceration is a proper sentence for the irredeemable. I feel again, due to my belief in personal responsibility, that all prisoners should earn their keep.
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#56 Marcsaurelius..
You say "I am as irrepressable as Hyacinth Bucket"
Marcus,
Are you trying to tell me some thing?????
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McCain's choice of VP shows two things
1) He is running scared from the stone age wing of his party so has made one of them his VP as they don't trust him
2) A cynical ploy to try to get female votes from disgruntled Hilary supporters. Boy did they misread that one. Hilary women will not vote for someone who believes the world is younger than civilisation.
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#241 RealFrigid
I agree with that. I am vegan and do as little as I can to make animals' lives
Difficult. I accept that deer culling (done correctly), for instance, has to occur or older animals will die a miserable death. Animals, like us, tend to overpopulate
---------------------
To develop the earlier point further – I see no inconsistency in my position. This is law we are talking about, not personal morality.
I believe that morality has no place in law. The state has a duty to protect its citizens from murder. I give 'citizen' a social, not moral definition. Thus a foetus is not a citizen until it is legally recognised as such. That may seem circular but the essence of it is the social, not moral definition of a person.
There comes some point in foetal development when, say, a medical practitioner would recognise that it has human characteristics sufficient to differentiate it from other people. It is at that kind of time that it becomes a citizen.
In terms of my personal morality, I doubt I would ever advocate abortion. It has never come up but I doubt it. The circumstances would be crucial.
By the same token the state should not offer 'punishment' because that has a moral basis. It should be trying to rehabilitate criminals where that is possible – but also protecting society from their actions.
For multiple offenders who commit crimes with a high rate of recidivism like sex offences that may mean that they never come out of prison.
For non-violent offenders that may mean that they never go to prison. The problem is to define 'violent'.
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233, GnR
I was thinking more about the acrostic than the text as verse, but thank you :)
My earlier attempt to discuss the latest 'event' (see the link on 211) was deemed a little impolitic, though I do think it might be the 800lb gorilla in the middle of the campaign. Palin certainly has some questions to answer and I'm sure the two photos in that link of her daughter will be discussed at some length as they do seem to indicate that the story might have some basis in fact.
And, of course, there is that other issue of why it took Palin so long to get to a hospital after she knew matters to be urgent. That seems, to say the least, rather strange.
McCain has either just hit a political bump, or made a truly disastrous choice.
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#237, chill0:
"Yes, that is exactly right. The problem with that is that you know better what you are killing with the baby than with the mass murderer. The person you are killing may not be the mass murderer."
You also know the baby to be absolutely innocent.
"Even if you are sure you have the right person, capital punishment militates against the ideas of forgiveness, personal redemption or even rehabilitation to put it in social terms."
I agree with your stance against capital punishment. I don't think the state should get involved in forgiveness, or personal redemption. Rehabilitation should be reserved for those cases when the investment by the state is worth it.
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"As for Sarah Palin! Her creationist views are bound to become an issue (can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?). But far more politically explosive will be her views on abortion, apparently against it in ALL circumstances. "
The woman is plainly a half-educated nutcase who seem to occur in US politics with alarming regularity.
She might have made a good Vice President for the present incumbent, but will make McCain, who as a pilot presumbly knows basic science, a laughing stock.
The first serious press conference should be a hoot. Maybe they should ask her where the garden of eden was and did it have moose (mooses?)
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#247, The Notting Hill Hammer:
Creationism would not be an issue if Christians would just consult with a Rabbi who interprets Genesis from the Torah in context of Talmudic scholarship.
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The VP pick is a judgement issue.
McCain hasn’t picked someone close to him, whose personal qualities he could assess himself over a period, or someone who was well known generally and whose credentials were therefore obvious; he picked someone he had apparently met only once and who most Americans appear not to have heard of. If Palin turns out to be a success then this will surely look like good luck rather than good judgement and irrespective of that the choice process itself invites us to consider whether tokenism played too great a part: did he pick a woman (any woman) who had some executive experience (any executive experience no matter how limited) and who happened to hold right wing views (ones McCain himself doesn’t necessarily agree with) to help him get elected (rather than to help him actually govern)? Country first?
In addition, having argued strongly that Obama was an unsuitable candidate for Commander-in-Chief because of lack of relevant experience, and then, at the age of 72 with a mixed medical history, to pick a VP with evidently less experience (certainly both in time and scope) invites us to contrast his judgement with Obama’s. He picked Biden - who he knows personally and who is well known generally and who offers Obama specific experience useful not only in the election but also in the event that he wins.
If the Dems hope to counter Obama’s experience with McCain’s judgement, as they seemed to do at the NDC last week, then this is a gift isn’t it?
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holy JFC, #203, bethpa, you believe in a soul which means you believe in god? MENSA's standards must be a lot lower than I thought.
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211, David.
I looked into this. Very interesting. My first reply to you was removed, but I sent a second with more information which was not removed. Most confusing.
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248. At 12:25pm on 01 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
#238, FlacidCasual:
Thanks. Yes, I agree that being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty has equal concerns.
I come to the abortion debate as a libertarian, so I believe in personal responsibility. These unwanted pregnancies are not "immaculate conceptions", so usually their sexual recreation resulted in an unintended consequence. The baby is innocent of any wrong doing, so the "guilt" of the unwanted pregnancy falls only to the adults who initiated it. "
But by using the term "baby" to refer to a foetus whihc yiou actually do not consider to be the same as a "baby" you show a clear bias.
"Special considerations of course apply in those circumstances where the pregnancy is due to rape, or when continuation risks the life of the mother."
That is plainly inconsistent. Either you consider a foetus a life or you do not, the method of its conception to those who see every human cell as a life form is completely irrelevant.
Human beings are not judged on the basis of how they were conceived.
"Secondly, I believe the baby has the natural right to be protected by law. The decision for the government is when a baby has Constitutional rights. "
Babies maybe, foetuses not and when in the womb and attached to the mother there is no way constitutional rights can bbe enforced. And no one seriously suggests they should be, unless a special form of mother police is to be formed.
"For me, then thirdly, consideration for the "use of the womb and body" should be given to the mother. Women do have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and that begins with unprotected sex. "
This is an absolute right for any human being and the most fundamental.
"Lastly, If the society truly cherishes its new citizen, then it should be prepared to offer free neonatal care and in all other ways provide support for the pregnant women should she not have means."
But since no society does this and shows no sign of doing so then it is academic.
And in any case women feel the need for abortion for thousands of reasons - family preservation, mental health etc.
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225, guns.
C'mon, you've never known a Spartan woman. But I'll bet Staphy knows all about them. He knows everything.
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253. At 12:32pm on 01 Sep 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
#237, chill0:
"Yes, that is exactly right. The problem with that is that you know better what you are killing with the baby than with the mass murderer. The person you are killing may not be the mass murderer."
"You also know the baby to be absolutely innocent."
Butr you do not know the foetus is a human being, and you certainly know that with any prisoner.
Unless one wants to take the Thomas Moore view, who removed his beard from the block declaring it was completely innocent so shouldn't suffer.
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228, guns.
If the internet scuttlebutt proves true, that will change. So far it is pretty compelling. It could be an elaborate hoax, I guess, but there are all those pictures.
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Mark (66),
Very TaoistAnd true.
Peace to all
ed
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Abortion is only a litmus test for about 20% of the electorate. With most of than number being against it. The only place being pro-life will hurt you in national politics is in the Democratic party.
Creationism is a similar issue. The hardcore atheists were already voting Democrat. I find it odd that people will gasp at any candidate's religious views in light of the fact that no atheist stands a ghost of a chance of getting elected president in the US.
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#261, Simon21:
"But you do not know the foetus is a human being, and you certainly know that with any prisoner."
I admit the uncertainty troubles me. I would rather err, when possible, on the side of protecting the babies rights.
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#255 Realfrigid wrote
247, The Notting Hill Hammer:
Creationism would not be an issue if Christians would just consult with a Rabbi who interprets Genesis from the Torah in context of Talmudic scholarship.
.......
A lot of talmudic scholars believe in the literal "truth" of Genesis.
The problem with creationism is that it is a myth, just like the now discarded Norse, Greek and Celtic creation myths.
We no longer believe that thunder is the anger of the gods, why on Earth do we need to believe in a creator.
Even those churches that accept evolution to an extent are merely twisting logic. Evolution pretty much proves we are the product of genes and chemical accidents.
The march of scientific knowlegde continues to refute mankind's childhood fantasy, religion. There's just a lot of people to educate.
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249, ukwales.
You don't understand. Sstaphylococcus aureus is paying you a compliment. Hyacinth Bucket is the ideal he aspires to.
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David,
NOT the latter. Be fairComplain about this comment
"257. At 12:42pm on 01 Sep 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
holy JFC, #203, bethpa, you believe in a soul which means you believe in god? MENSA's standards must be a lot lower than I thought."
Again the problem when talking about something other than claret.
Belief in a soul does not necessarily mean a belief in "god" or "gods", though it may imply it.
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254, simon.
You are being very unkind to a girl from a one-moose town. Anyway if that delicious rumor is true, we won't have to worry about her.
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Post 260 allmymarbles
"C'mon, you've never known a Spartan woman. But I'll bet Staphy knows all about them. He knows everything."
By all accounts the Spartan men were not all that keen on knowing (in the biblical sense) Spartan women. My guess is they'd be a tad intimidating for someone who fantasises about Hyathinth Bucket !!
You're all doing very well !!
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Andrea,
I thought it was a maverick. Have you checked the etymology of "renegade"? It seems to me to have connotations of nay-saying or negativity....so it may be accurate. He's clearly in denial, in fact, he's a past master!Salaam, etc.
ed
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265, Real.
It is not your choice to make, Real. It is the women who decide.
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#164 DougTexan wrote:
Jay Dubya,
Now your a outlet for misinformation and bias,.. sad, actually thought you were better than that.
Just what may a President do to affect the "abortion" policies, what is a VP apt to do? Nada. You got it.......Nada, nothing, no change, no bill nor a wasted minute.
You are the most uniformed of all possible reporters of political and operations of the US government as I hgave ever seen. You should step down. Do place this diatribe into public domain is unconsciencable, as pertandent and viable 'knowlege' of which you don't posses. Pitiful to say the least for a Brit.
In the States so much is at sake, and to make an issue of,... religion, your country deserves Sha'ria law, as you've lost all credibility with me as even a commentator,... sir, and I use that as lightly as possible with no respect, I'm out of here, only to answer and ask of other bloggers, not of you.
...........................
Too much Bourbon today? Justin's blog is pretty fair as far as I can see. Religion matters because "the religous right" are trying to turn the clock back to the 50s (the 1650s)
Lets just say that this blog will be devastated at the removal of your measured, insightful tones from our debates. A whole community mourns.
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re #186
I think you'll find that 'fundamentalism' and 'evangelicalism' (in a Christian context) are pretty much interchangeable terms; they indicate a belief in certain 'fundamental' ideas, which, in a Christian context, are to be found in the Bible, particularly the Gospels.
'Evangelism', on the other hand, is really another way of saying 'proselytism', ie attempting to persuade others to share one's own beliefs.
So, Gunsandreligion, you're quite right: '"evangelism" and "fundamentalism" are two distinct things.' However, I'm not sure that you understand what 'evangelism' means.
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#259,Simon21
"But by using the term "baby" to refer to a foetus which you actually do not consider to be the same as a "baby" you show a clear bias."
I use the more vernacular term "baby" to describe the entire pregnancy cycle. Mothers usually do not refer to that thing inside them as their fetus.
RF: "Special considerations of course apply in those circumstances where the pregnancy is due to rape, or when continuation risks the life of the mother."
S21: "That is plainly inconsistent. Either you consider a foetus a life or you do not, the method of its conception to those who see every human cell as a life form is completely irrelevant. Human beings are not judged on the basis of how they were conceived."
I agree. It is a only legal distinction. If pregnancy were always considered a blessing, then rape might be construed as an act of kindness. When is it justified to end a babies life based on unusual circumstances? I'm not entirely sure.
RF: "Secondly, I believe the baby has the natural right to be protected by law. The decision for the government is when a baby has Constitutional rights. "
S21: "Babies maybe, foetuses not and when in the womb and attached to the mother there is no way constitutional rights can be enforced. And no one seriously suggests they should be, unless a special form of mother police is to be formed."
Yes, certainly, there is no practical way to prevent a mother from abusing her baby in the womb. Although, I guess child abuse law would be a precedence.
RF: "For me, then thirdly, consideration for the "use of the womb and body" should be given to the mother. Women do have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and that begins with unprotected sex. "
S21: "This is an absolute right for any human being and the most fundamental."
The circumstance here is that two lives have intertwined to produce a third. All three persons rights should be preserved. Preserving one person rights over another's is an injustice.
RF: "Lastly, If the society truly cherishes its new citizen, then it should be prepared to offer free neonatal care and in all other ways provide support for the pregnant women should she not have means."
S21: "But since no society does this and shows no sign of doing so then it is academic."
As I suggested earlier, all the wasted resources spent on debating the topic for the last 40 years would have provided the care needed. Just as with the US civil war, 700,000 lives and vast resources were spent in a fight over slavery. Imagine if that resource had been spent in a positive manner.
S21: "And in any case women feel the need for abortion for thousands of reasons - family preservation, mental health etc."
The same argument could be made for most any action taken by one individual against another.
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#273, allmymarbles:
"It is not your choice to make, Real. It is the women who decide."
When does that special right end? Birth? Eighteen?
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263, Ed.
Perhaps a book on the transition from Bush should be called 'From Maoist to Taoist' ;)
As for Palin, her first overseas visit ought to be to go and see Breughel's 'Fall of Icarus' in the Musee des Beaux Arts in Brussels. She could even read Auden's poem about that painting, and learn.
Nothing so damages a politician as the revelation of their hypocrisy and consequent dishonesty. It has always been that way: high principles and low conduct make the mighty fall every time.
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#266, The Notting Hill Hammer:
Right, but in the context of Judeo-Christian belief, the stories in Genesis describe the relationship between Man and God. I agree it is ludicrous to ascribe any scientific basis on the events derived from a Sumerian myth.
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mabel, you must have lost all your marbles. I do not aspire to Hyacinth, I aspire to Onslo. He is by far the best and smartest character in KUA.
You haven't figured out the tyrannical mind after all these years? It is the infantile mind which demands that the world conform to its whims, that it adapt to its conception of how existance should be whether it comes in the guise of religion or despotic political dogma. It is extremely dangerous to allow it any quarter because its thirst for power and control has no limits. Russia today is a prime example. The EU and US are aboout to cave in to it just the way Europe caved in to Hitler during the 1930s.
Much to my amazement, in a recent documentary, it was demonstrated using a lot of previously clasified material and material that had come out of post Soviet Russia that by and large Joseph McCarthy was right. I was stunned. It went against everything I'd ever read or heard about him. It was astonishing how accurate many of his accusations were. In recent years, I've re-examined a lot of my former beliefs based on what I was taught about history and found that they don't stand up to scrutiny. I've come to the conclusion that Woodrow Wilson was by far the worst President the United States ever had, possibly highly responsible for WWII and that the Southern States probably had every legal right to secede. Interestingly, Lincoln was toying with a plan to send all the freed slaves to Africa after the Civil War.
An international government would be the worst fate that could befall America. We'd become slaves to a jealous and greedy world that would steal the fruits of our labors in some monsterous conception of equality and social justice. It would be far better for America to fight a nuclear war to prevent it and for all of us to die than for that to ever happen. And likely with the kind of people who run our military, if there was ever a prospect of it, they would do exactly that.
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276, Real.
I think that when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy, her emotions will dictate what she does. Fine points of morality are put on the back burner when you are faced with a decision that so profoundly affects your life.
I don't know what percentage of southern women opt for abortion, as compared with northern women, but I will bet it is higher than you think.
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279, Real
Why a "Sumerian" myth?
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#266, The Notting Hill Hammer:
"Evolution pretty much proves we are the product of genes and chemical accidents."
Evolutionary theory, the fossil record, DNA evidence, and etc. suggests that. It does not prove it.
I can't say with 100% certainly that the entire universe including me posting right now didn't blink into existence 15 milliseconds ago, but it seems highly unlikely. If people want to believe there was a plan, that is their affair. It belongs as a philosophical discussion, and not in the science classroom.
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277, Real.
It is a fact, not a question of law or philosophy. No one can force a woman to have a baby she doesn't want. Are you going to put her in shackles until she delivers? You could try to pursuade her, I guess, but she would have to agree, so she still makes the decision.
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#259,Simon21
"But by using the term "baby" to refer to a foetus which you actually do not consider to be the same as a "baby" you show a clear bias."
I use the more vernacular term "baby" to describe the entire pregnancy cycle. Mothers usually do not refer to that thing inside them as their fetus."
That depends on the mother. I have known women who became pregnant who did not refer to the foetus as a "baby".
And in the cases of miscarraige etc the expelled foetus is usually called a foetus.
Baby is a term which implies human status and is used in that manner.
RF: "Special considerations of course apply in those circumstances where the pregnancy is due to rape, or when continuation risks the life of the mother."
S21: "That is plainly inconsistent. Either you consider a foetus a life or you do not, the method of its conception to those who see every human cell as a life form is completely irrelevant. Human beings are not judged on the basis of how they were conceived."
"I agree. It is a only legal distinction. If pregnancy were always considered a blessing, then rape might be construed as an act of kindness. When is it justified to end a babies life based on unusual circumstances? I'm not entirely sure."
Neither am I. But I beleive it is the rape victims right to choose - not me or anyone else.
And the fact remains for consistency you must beleive woman must be forced to come to term no mater what, incest, child abuse etc notwithstanding.
RF: "Secondly, I believe the baby has the natural right to be protected by law. The decision for the government is when a baby has Constitutional rights. "
S21: "Babies maybe, foetuses not and when in the womb and attached to the mother there is no way constitutional rights can be enforced. And no one seriously suggests they should be, unless a special form of mother police is to be formed."
"Yes, certainly, there is no practical way to prevent a mother from abusing her baby in the womb. Although, I guess child abuse law would be a precedence."
Rights, like laws, which cannot be enforced are not worth the paper they are written on. Conjugal rights are a famous example of these.
RF: "For me, then thirdly, consideration for the "use of the womb and body" should be given to the mother. Women do have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, and that begins with unprotected sex. "
S21: "This is an absolute right for any human being and the most fundamental."
"The circumstance here is that two lives have intertwined to produce a third. All three persons rights should be preserved. Preserving one person rights over another's is an injustice. "
But that assumes a third life, and even if conceded this third "life" is totally dependent on the life a of another, which means, of necessity its rights , as just shown, do not in fact exist.
RF: "Lastly, If the society truly cherishes its new citizen, then it should be prepared to offer free neonatal care and in all other ways provide support for the pregnant women should she not have means."
S21: "But since no society does this and shows no sign of doing so then it is academic."
"As I suggested earlier, all the wasted resources spent on debating the topic for the last 40 years would have provided the care needed. Just as with the US civil war, 700,000 lives and vast resources were spent in a fight over slavery. Imagine if that resource had been spent in a positive manner."
Here here, but the fact remains that this vision is never likely to occur.
S21: "And in any case women feel the need for abortion for thousands of reasons - family preservation, mental health etc."
The same argument could be made for most any action taken by one individual against another.
No because pregnancy and birth are like no other human condition. Women can find themselves (and have been) threatened, impoverished, humiliated and their health threatened.
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Post 270 allmymarbles. That is one big rumour. If true it would blow the whole shebang for McCain. However I'm sure she must have been thoroughly vetted...??!!
Post 280 "Lincoln was toying with a plan to send all the freed slaves to Africa after the Civil War" strange but true. It's also the plan the nazis once had for the jews. Himmler toyed with the idea of sending all the jews within the reich to Madagascar.....
You're all doing very well !!
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Simple Simian 21, there is surely justice in this world even though most don't like it. It is only right that I should drink classified Bordeaux from top vintages while you drink ordinary plonk like Chateau Thames Embankment. After all, I am the embodiment of a Roman Emperor while you are a mere Euro peon.
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Doug,
He or she can appoint Supreme Court justices, and McCain has clearly indicated he would (in the unlikely event of being elected):So, not exactly nada....Salaam, etc.
ed
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#281, allmymarbles :
"I think that when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy, her emotions will dictate what she does. Fine points of morality are put on the back burner when you are faced with a decision that so profoundly affects your life."
But, wouldn't that be a consideration before grabbing the hand gun from the drawer and killing your husband? Emotions, while understandable, are not justifications for violating another persons rights. Punching someone in the nose may make me feel better, and I may be justified, but it is still not an appropriate behavior.
"I don't know what percentage of southern women opt for abortion, as compared with northern women, but I will bet it is higher than you think."
Abortion statistics
more Abortion Statistics
It appears that states with larger urbanization have more (e.g. Illinois, New York, California). More rural states have a lower rate.
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Some Evangelical Christians prayed for rain to disturb the Democrat Convention. Seems to me these prayers have turned against them. Gustav is a disaster for the Republicans because it will remind everybody to Katrina and how the Bush administration failed to handle the crisis. To sad for the Republicans God punished them during such an important Convention.
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286, Young.
Apparently not. There is talk now of what they missed. They didn't search newspaper archives for instance (not that would have brought this to light, however). None of the major newspapers or wire services have come out with the story. I presume they are busy investigating.
I found out what I could and, from what I could determine, and this included a live interview, she had not been pregnant.
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286, YMG
McCain met Palin once. She was vetted by Hensley Corp lawyers, but they may not have asked that kind of question and I'm not sure she would have confessed readily to that kind of skeleton in the cupboard. As I've said in a couple of posts, the official version does not quite ring true and then there are the photos of the daughter with what appears to be a tell-tale bump. The 'whole shebang' is quite a good way of putting it ... as the actress said to the bishop.
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DavidBlunt,
Would you like to substantiate this remarkable statement?Salaam, etc.
ed
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287, staphylococcus aureus.
I think you should try to hook up with Magic and Xie. Either you would neutralize each other (a blessing) or destroy each other (a blessing). Definitely a win-win.
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"Like beer and wine, it is never a good idea to mix theology with science."
Amen to that!
(mine's a glass of dry red. Thank you)
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#285, Simon21:
"Baby is a term which implies human status and is used in that manner."
I didn't mean it that way.
RF: "I agree. It is a only legal distinction. If pregnancy were always considered a blessing, then rape might be construed as an act of kindness. When is it justified to end a babies life based on unusual circumstances? I'm not entirely sure."
S21: "Neither am I. But I believe it is the rape victims right to choose - not me or anyone else. And the fact remains for consistency you must believe woman must be forced to come to term no mater what, incest, child abuse etc notwithstanding."
The balance of undoing the harm of rape with the rights of a life would require quite a bit of debate. Again, I'm not sure, but you are correct whatever the law says should be defensibly consistent.
RF: "Yes, certainly, there is no practical way to prevent a mother from abusing her baby in the womb. Although, I guess child abuse law would be a precedence."
S21: "Rights, like laws, which cannot be enforced are not worth the paper they are written on. Conjugal rights are a famous example of these."
I may not be thinking pragmatically, but more from the legalistic point of view. Children within a home are at the mercy of their parents, and not all abuse would be physically visible. Still the law seeks to protect them.
RF: "The circumstance here is that two lives have intertwined to produce a third. All three persons rights should be preserved. Preserving one person rights over another's is an injustice. "
S21: "But that assumes a third life, and even if conceded this third "life" is totally dependent on the life a of another, which means, of necessity its rights , as just shown, do not in fact exist."
Without interruption, the pregnancy will result in another citizen to protect. It is the burden on the state to determine which rights are more important.
RF: "As I suggested earlier, all the wasted resources spent on debating the topic for the last 40 years would have provided the care needed. Just as with the US civil war, 700,000 lives and vast resources were spent in a fight over slavery. Imagine if that resource had been spent in a positive manner."
S21: "Here here, but the fact remains that this vision is never likely to occur."
I'm an optimist.
S21: "And in any case women feel the need for abortion for thousands of reasons - family preservation, mental health etc."
RF: "The same argument could be made for most any action taken by one individual against another."
S21: No because pregnancy and birth are like no other human condition. Women can find themselves (and have been) threatened, impoverished, humiliated and their health threatened."
Oh, I would disagree. In the face of physical abuse a women might find she needs to assert her right of self defense. The law then determines if that homicide was justified.
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#44 and #57
When I stated (#12) 'you reap what you sow', I was, I thought obviously, referring to a lax planning system which has allowed these hurricanes to wreak more damage than would otherwise have been to case.
Of course, that means that the people, mostly poor, who live in low lying areas of New Orleans will suffer.
I do not think there is the political will to allow New Orleans to regain its former size.
It will mostly remain a much smaller place inhabited by those wealthy enough to 'live on the hill'.
I do find it baffling that you can extrapolate my comments into a 'hatred of Americans' when actually the reverse is true.
I have a deep and abiding affection for America and Americans.
Nevertheless, I have read Erhenreichs' 'Nickeled and Dimed' and thus have no illusions about the fact that the 'American dream' remains precisely that, a dream, for most folk.
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as a philosopher I am dismayed by the drivel posted about the republican vp candidate. No one seriously believes that the theatrical statement about "being a heart beat away from the presidency" these days detracts from the decision making process that would occur in that event!. There are joint chiefs of staff- economic advisor's and foreign policy advisor's on hand to allow any rational person to make a decision.
The basis of beliefs of any individual are complex and varied however if those beliefs allow the person to co-exist with others and they are not destructive then that is to the overall good of the society. Personally I am agnostic but do not think being a creationist prevents one from making rational decisions in the real world.
Her reported position on abortion is more difficult. I can see that aborting innocent children of rape and incest can be argued but what about a case of illness or accident where the Foetus cannot survive but the mother could if the Foetus was aborted?. Maybe we should never say "never".
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#290, DutchNemo:
"Some Evangelical Christians prayed for rain to disturb the Democrat Convention. Seems to me these prayers have turned against them. Gustav is a disaster for the Republicans because it will remind everybody to Katrina and how the Bush administration failed to handle the crisis. To sad for the Republicans God punished them during such an important Convention."
Former Democratic National Committee chairman apologizes for Gustav joke
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Hello. I'm speaking from a Midwestern American's perspective. I firmly believe that the theory of evolution should be taught in schools. It is the only universal theory that can be taught to anyone. If you want to learn about creationism, you go to church. If they were to teach creationism in school, then I feel they also need to teach ALL religious perspectives, not just the Christian beliefs. The GOP always seems to have these wedge issues that get in the way of real problems and real solutions. Dubya claimed to be against gay marriage and abortion, but what has really changed since he took office? Nothing as far as abortion goes, and gay marriages are happening all the time in California and Massachusetts.
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#294, allmymarbles;
Do not mix the matter with the anti-matter!
You might just end up with limericks.
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289, Real.
It is not a question of what is theoretically right or wrong, but of how it plays out. Like most people, I live in the real world, not academia.
As to the abortion rates, it makes sense that there would be a higher rate of abortion in cities, where judgemental neighbors would be less of a factor.
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#282, allmymarbles:
Enki and Ninhursag
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#201
David,
Exactly the sort of arguement that shows creationists (those who seek to have it taught as science) to have their heads in a warm dark place. There is no conlfict between Thermosynamics and evolution. None. Not even any overlap. Nor a single peer reviewed paper suggesting there is.
The reason Creationism should not be taught as science is that it cannot be tested using the scientific method. As such it cannot be science. Similarly it cannot be disproved using the scientific method. As such, and as a religious or philiosophical contruct, it should be taught as religion or Philosophy. If it is acepted as science then we must also teach the Flying Spagetti Monster 'theory' of creation.
And may you be touched by his noodly appendage,
Sam
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#287
Are you short?
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286, 291
Presumably, as well, the press will not want to be as slow verifying matters as they were with Edwards ... If the allegations are true, then the weakest link will be the father ....
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I was just thinking about responding to MA2's post @ 280, by talking about FDR and how I think he was the best US President, however, I'm not going to do that now, because I realise that even FDR's achievements were shaped and amplified by the circumstances of the day. And that brings us back to the topic of Justin's blog - politics, government, management - they're all about reacting to events and rolling with the punches.
Is it realistic to have expected Wilson to forsee the Bierkellerputsch and the rise of fascist nationalism in Germany as he sat down at the table in Versailles? I guess time will give us more perspective on whether the hawkish foreign policy advocated by John McCain and already carried out by Bush/Cheney was the right way to go. Time may be kind on the Hawks and decide that the pre-emptive action saved thousands of lives. Evidence today suggest that's not the case.
I do have concerns about a hawkish response to Russia's current actions. Russia owns over sixty billion dollars of the US's national debt. The US owes China over half a trillion dollars. Are you really going to go toe-to-toe with countries that have your IOU in their pocket?
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mable clear the table, I think you should hook up with bethpa. Ducks of a feather should flock together. Why not fly south for the winter. Say to Antarctica.
Simple Simian 21, you reminded me of the movie Planet of the Apes. Do gorilla babies have souls the way humans do? How much longer before British scientists create a mutant crossbreed between a simian and a homo sapien or have they already?
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I think McCain is trying to lose.
McCain is trying to stop the right wing Republicans from having power in the White House. The Republicans will almost certainly lose the Congress.
The Bush administration has put in place laws that will allow eaves dropping and surveillance of almost anyone and without court warrants. This is extremely dangerous and could lead to the black mail of almost anyone...as well as uncovering political and business plans etc...
Its worse than Watergate and there is no impeachment going on.
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#207 kecsmar
You believe in a soul or not..but its a personal decision and not something for political discussion...and imo there are people who are more moral than I am who are atheists...and have no belief at all in a soul. I have enough trouble making moral decisions for myself without telling others how to be moral. I can be very passionate about my views..but I also recognize i might be wrong..and I am just one person in a wide diverse world of people with many differing views...its good to be humble sometimes : )
Its very irritating though to be told I am not a Christian because I don't agree with another person's view of Christ...and I do question that other person's view of Christ when it includes denying help to suffering people
.
There is a part of me that is mystical..if I walk through a cemetery at night..I'm nervous...and you feel no fear based upon the unknown?
#232 Real Frigid
There are two issues here..there is the moral issue which can be connected to religious belief and there is the issue of an orderly society.
Americans are making the mistake of thinking that morality can be enforced by government regulations.
All the government can do is provide order...with laws and people who enforce the laws. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's
" If another person assaults her and causes the baby to die should that person be punished?"
"If the society truly cherishes its new citizen, then it should be prepared to offer free neonatal care and in all other ways provide support for the pregnant women should she not have means." ( 2 Frigid quotes)
Yes. Women who are pregnant should be protected. And I have read that pregnant women are particularly at risk of being attacked by the men they live with ..if the man is an abuser.
if there is reincarnation then the baby may not be innocent...just to add another religious view...but for me babies are innocents and should be protected.
#237 chill0
"capital punishment militates against the ideas of forgiveness, personal redemption"
Yes and Christians imo should be trying to help people to come to God...no matter what evil has been committed..because that is what Christ did..Christ forgave people. Christians have been told by Christ to forgive their enemies.
"This is law we are talking about, not personal morality"
Yes I agree the law and personal morality are 2 different things.
#257
Marcus there were no religious questions on the test : ) Sometimes its fun to be mystical...It gives life a magical touch...
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Intelleigent design? What is this nonsense?
I don't mean to rubbish anyones beliefs , as questions of faith are for the individual.
As a society however we must proceed , using reason, rational thought and objective reasoning. To arrive at conclusions from a postion of faith is simply unnacceptable in this day and age. Ben Franklin would be turning in his grave with disgust at the sheer contempt for science displayed by half of America today.
I'm Irish and have never been to the US.
When I say half I mean the half that voted for George Bush. A man whos capacity to avoid reason and science is bewildering.
Not that for a second I hold my country or its leaders above him or the states.
Where the US goes, we will follow please God ts obama who leads us.
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298, virtualreggie
Go and read the link on 211 and ask yourself, if this is true (and that 'if' is still significant), and given the candidates views on abortion, how would they have behaved and what would the consequences be when it was revealed.
It has not been unknown in Ireland, for instance, for the familial mother to suddenly have an extra child when a daughter reached child-brearing age. It is, however, one thing to cover such tracks privately; quite another to weave it into a political career and make it serve as a narrative for the projection of moral virtue; or to use it to gain public sympathy.
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#292, MarkfromOxford :
Birth Certificates are public record and clearly list mother and father.
If true, a trip to public records will clear it up.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Why do people have any respect and love for God. Even if he did exist, what is he/she?
An Alien with a masive ego. As we have created wormeries and bee hives, he has created the world for us.
And as I understand it, to get to heaven we simply have to believe in our final moments that he is the man? No matter how dastardly the deeds we may have committed be they, supporting George Bush or liverpool. You can still go to heaven once you say ," jesus I beleive in you sorry about all that I'm your man now."
Why revere such a being? This god as presented by christians is no more than an amoral ego maniac.
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#302, allmymarbles :
It is not a question of what is theoretically right or wrong, but of how it plays out. Like most people, I live in the real world, not academia.
I live in both actually, which is a blessing and a curse. :) I would like to think that "Right and Wrong" needs to start from some basis of organized thought.
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ST68
"#287
Are you short?"
No, my accounts are usually in balance unless I've made a major wine purchase recently. Why, do you want to lend me some money?
Are you a mutant? You seem like you might be one. Do mutants have souls? British scientists have created a cells made from a cross between mouse DNA and human DNA. bethpa, what percentage of human DNA would a living being have to have before it gets a soul? Can it get part of a soul if it is only part human DNA? C'mon bethpa, don't skip out on me now as an intellectual coward afraid to address this question. You say you believe in souls and are MENSA. Let's just see how cleverly you can dance around this issue. Let's all see if MENSA is a fraud of intellectual snobs. Inquiring minds want to know what the "intellectual elite" have to say about this issue which could burst out on the world from a laboratory at any time.
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306, MarkfromOxford.
If I were doing the research I would look for babies born on or around that date. The population is not large so it would not hard to narrow it down. One source said that the town in which it was presumably born did not register a birth.
I wonder if birth information is available online.
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This has been a very entertaining thread!
Some comments without reference numbers:
The idea of a "Theory of Mind" distinguishing humans from other animals weakens when one considers the chimp research.
At the Fulda conference, the assembled Catholic bishops endorsed Hitler's program. When Hitler died, there were high masses
conducted all over Germany. I.e., he lived and died in the Faith.
There was an interesting suggestion that a child exists as a life when one can distinguish it from others.
Anyone who uses the symbol "soul" should define it.
People go to the End of the Road (e.g. Alaska, Northwest Territories, etc.) are often (to put it kindly) "different".
Fundamentalists exist all over the World, evangelicals do not. There is considerable overlap (in the Venn diagram sense). The terms are used interchangeably, however.
Looking at the USA as if through a telescope from Mars helps one escape from the local biases that distort reality.
Carry on!
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300. WIforObama:
In a philosophy course you wouldn't need to teach ALL, but acknowledge all and not show preference for one philosophy over another.
My understanding of the establishment clause is that the State should not dictate, affirm or deny a person their religious philosophy. The state cannot endorse, or be inculcated with religious doctrines. But, I think it is a travesty for education to be denied the possibility of teaching a vast branch of philosophy.
For example, I very much enjoy Zen koans, and the teachings of the Dalai Lama. You do not need to be religious, or a Buddhist to enjoy reflecting on wisdom. Should public school children be denied this wisdom due to restrictions on "church/state" entanglement?
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bethpa 1617 168..
good posts...
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ref #300
That is an excellent point. Hypothetcly after McCain wins he dies in office. Palin becomes President, she tries to have Roe overturned or tries to have judges put on the court to oveturn it.
First unless people realize how Harry Reid and company have bungled their job, The dems will have a majority and they have demonstated how they will abuse advice and consent in nominating judges.
In other words that fear is unfounded.
Also Scalia and Alito don't beileve in judicial activism the way Stevens and Ginsburg do.
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This is making the Sunday funny pages.
Hillary snubs Bill, kisses Obama
The horrible pun I saw was "Once you go Barrack..."
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Merely as a digression to the main issue of
choosing Palin as Republican Presidential Nominee, I would like to state on behalf of
creationists the following defence:
In the creation story of Genesis the sun, moon and the stars were said to have been created on the fouth 'day'. So how were the previous three days reckoned? Therefore it follows that the 'days' mentioned here does not refer to days literally, but rather to eons
of time. Further, the Psalmist says, "with God a thousand years is like one day and one day is like a thousand years". Furthermore, the Hebrew word "bara" used
in Genesis for creation has been used in Psalm 104 and other places to mean historical or natural processes (which could
include evolution).
So let us not rush to conclusion about
'Creationists' like Palin. They may very well be right if they don't use the word, 'day' mentioned in Genesis too literally.
As for evolution being used to deny the existence of God, one of the most fundamental laws in science, namely the Second Law of Thermodynamics, states that
nature if left to itself tends to degeneracy (not evolution). Therefore if there is indeed evolution it is not nature, but some other supernatural and intelligent power which is
responsible for evolution.
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307, Flacid.
We could use FDR to alleviate unemployment. What he did during the depression was create much needed federal development projects that hired who-knows-how-many people. Everybody gained and it certainly worked better than handouts.
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Marcus, if the mutant is wearing shoes , it has soles....bedum. I am not in mensa.
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Moving back to earlier comments...
How would one reconcile being against war because it "kills" yet supporting abortion, which also "kills" millions of fetuses?
My conclusion about abortion is it comes down to the rights of the mother versus the rights of the baby/fetus/cells -- and the mother wins. She rids herself of the baby so she is free from responsibility for it. The longer the period the baby's rights are denied, the longer she has to get rid of it.
As frivolous as it sounds, the fetus is killed for the convenience of the mother. She kills her living fetus so she can be free.
This decision is the mother's and protected by the right to "privacy".
I support this decision, but I try not to use terminology that changes what is actually happening.
...
And the "hearbeat away" rationale for Palin's inexperience disqualifying her seems to whither when considering Obama's becoming president
No heartbeat need stop to put Obama in the top spot, and yet his experience is extremely thin.
After all, he's been a community organizer, lawyer, professor, and a rather uninvolved and unremarkable legislator.
Obama's gift is that he's brilliant and a charismatic speaker. His most significant deliverable thus far has been an amazing speech (actually, many). His only written record consists of his books.
His life has been rather unremarkable as well. His mother made some poor choices, yet we are supposed to believe that she was a wonderful "dreamer". I am not impressed with her choices, which seem irresponsible to me.
His father might, under other circumstances, be referred to as a "deadbeat" dad, except he left Obama and his mother to attend Harvard. He left her when he could have stayed where Obama's mother and he attended school with a full scholarship.
Somehow Obama's having graduated from the Ivy League, married and parented is supposed to be extraordinary. While it is impressive, this would qualify 90% of the men and women in my town (of all races, nationalities, etc.)
I think what I find most interesting is the attempt to paint his background as mythical, exotic, romantic, etc. His background is not extraordinary just because it's Obama's. It is what it is, far from ideal.
Bill Clinton, also from a "broken" family, never called his family anything other than what it was. No pretense.
Obama has demonstrated a talent for changing the definition of something to make it seem special, and people want so desperately to believe this something can, indeed, be as special as Obama promises.
He is, in effect, selling a promise. He is a dreamer, like his mother. But actions matter, too. And Obama's actions, while respectable, are rather unremarkable.
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A very old method of debt cancellation?
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Beth,
I don't believe belief is a decision - more a fact. It may be informed by "research" (in the broadest sense), but it is not something you decide - you may decide to accept it....Peace and happiness
ed
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313, 318
You are also assuming that the birth records are accurate and have not been influenced in any way: the registrar is not present at time of birth and takes the information upon report. That might have been difficult to organise in Dallas, but Wasilla is potentially another matter ....
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Beth,
"Americans are making the mistake of thinking that morality can be enforced by government regulations."
I like how the American Constitution guarantees rights based on common law and natural law. These rights are deemed to be inalienable, and can never be denied to Americans. So, some laws which defend these rights, (which also happen to be moral) are confused with other laws which restrict liberty and are therefore against natural law.
A great example of how law can be perturbed is Marriage. Marriage is a religious artifact, which government has adopted as a social contract to described and protect property rights of couples. When it was encoded in law, the law makers never considered non-standard unions as "marriage". Since religions determine what "marriage" is, it is not up to the state to redefine it. But, it cannot be an ambiguous term for any social contract. Enter into the fray, the fundamentalist Mormons. They want to define marriage in a s a union of possibly more than two people. This is a huge problem for the state, so their solution is to deny that minority their religious freedoms.
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OldNat # 52: "The Netherlands, over centuries, reclaimed a large area of sand banks off the coast in an area of Europe that was desperately short of land. They stopped doing that some time ago, and are concerned about the long-term viability of that reclamation."
Actually, most land reclamations in the Netherlands took place in inland lakes and swamps. The ones that were actually of the coast were mostly located in the 'Waddenzee', which is a shallow sandy sea protected by a ring of islands.
Unlike Louisiana, the Netherlands are in a part of the world where hurricanes are rare. Our dikes are built to withstand every storm except the most severe riptides that statistically only occur once every 1.000 years. But as every Dutchman knows, that could be tomorrow.
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Ref 328
Don't forget W referred to our debt a couple of years ago as "just IOUs, pieces of paper".
While the possibility of default on our debt is highly unlikely, if nothing else because of the effects of a global banking collapse on our international investments, I would not be surprised if debt write-offs do take place, with the subsequent effect of further devaluing our currency.
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Goals,
This is your belief. Belief in the ascendency of Reason is as much belief, as is belief in any other Epistemology.I agree about Wise Ben:Salaam, etc.
ed
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FC #307
Should President Wilson have anticipated the rise of Nazism in Germany as the result of the vidictive treaty of Versailles he helped pen? Without the slightest doubt. He had an historical model right in front of him, the Reconstruction of the South after the Civil War. This is what largely led to the rise of hatred of blacks, lynchings, segregation, the Klu Klux Klan and the racial troubles of the 20th century in America. But he made the same mistake and the results were substantially the same. He was also the first US president in over a hundred years to ignore President Washington's warning about not getting involved in entangling alliances with European nations and Americans have paid a bitter price for that mistake ever since. America had no direct interests in the outcome of WWI. And it certainly had no interest in supplying arms to Britain and France violating its neutrality. Wilson's failed presidency which led to so much horror was the result of electing an inexperienced incompetent to that office. We'll see if America has learned anything by whether or not Obama wins. If he does, expect a disaster of similar magnitude before he is through even if he only sets the stage for it the way Wilson did.
Was FDR one of the best Presidents? No, not by a long shot. Another myth I was taught and convinced of. He did not end the depression, WWII did. An interesting thing about him was recently uncovered. It has been well known that he would not alllow himself to be photographed in the wheel chair he was confined to as the result of polio. Recently, an entire underground railroad station was unsealed and discovered under the Waldorf Astoria Hotel near Grand Central Station in New York City. This train station was built at taxpayer expense for the sole use of FDR and its purpose was for him to be able to leave his special train and enter the Waldorf Astoria Hotel where he stayed when he went to NYC so that he could get to his room unphotographed and unseen by prying public eyes.
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I always thought of MENSA as a dating service for nerds. :) If you want the real geniuses you need to go triple nines.
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Cool One,
AMEN!
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In american football there's a play called the "Hail Mary" pass. In a "Hail Mary" an offensive player throws the football very high and very far downfield, without trying to aim. That gives the opposition time to have several players run to the point where the ball will come down.
The Hail Mary is usually only used in the final minutes of a game because statistically it will always be less than 50% successful. And if it isn't successful, it can doom the opposition to losing.
Any professional league coach who would try the "Hail Mary" before the final desperate minutes of a game would probably be fired the following day. In my opinion, the republicans have tried the "Hail Mary" midway through the game.
I'm sure I won't be the only football fan to question the decision making abilities of the "Gipper". (see Coach Knute Rockne- as later played by Ronald Regan)
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Dear mr scribesoloman,
Thanks for the defence of creationism. Very interesting indeed.So if a day is an eon of time we can reconsider the god made the world in seven days theory? Due to a reference in ancient texts.
Why base your beliefs on ancient texts? As a catholic i was taught the four gospels we're the word of god. These gospels are in fact all written years after Jesus died. They are but a few of thirty or so gospels, selected by a monk roughly 200 years after Jesus to support his sect of christianity.
I fail to see why people capable of rational thought, like your good self, persist in referencing ancient writings as proof of anything. As we see today various groups and individuals write whatever they want to back there own theories. Surely it was no different in JC's time?
The enlightenment was the recognition that science was a means to find answers to the big questions. When all other possibilities are discounted what is left is must be truth/fact.
The importance of science, reason and objectivity as a means for society to make determinations can not be overstated.
Enjoy your faith by all means but when it comes to selling creationism as a plausability rather than a fanciful notion, you truly have gone too far.
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# 324
It is a fallacy to say any departure from entropy must demonstrate a supernatural being.
The laws of thermodynamics are based on observation and do not presume their own design.
Those who wish to play such philosophical games should proceed from Thomas Aquinas and try Bertrand Russell.
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Soc, old boy,
Worth some pondering!Personally, I don't find evolution necessarily conflicts with entropy - just more steps in the dance.....
Shanthi
ed
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Marbles,
And what sort of "development"? Infrastructure. And what are we lacking/losing/decaying?
Peace
ed
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Justin, you wrote "I ... have ... sympathy for this column's support of the philosophical underpinnings of that view".
In reality, said column simply asks why do many of those against choice do allow for it in various settings which do not differ from the most common one as regards to the presumed health of the fetus.
That obvious question is fully double edged, and is not at all a support of Palin's view.
If you do insist in reading it as such, then it really is an expression of pig-headed consistency, stupidly disregarding the life prospects for such babies once born, being unloved, bereft of family support, or having a large probability of being burdened with crippling physical and mental problems due to genetic malformations. That is what many anti-choice people think. Not so difficult to understand, is it?
On another subject, the relevant event threatening the "statesmen" is not today's hurricane, nor the one from three years ago, but the dreadful response by said "statesmen" back then.
I wish you, Justin, would play it straight, without baiting the readers into correcting you.
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# 329
One should be careful concerning the use of the word "belief".
For example "core belief" (the World is friendly or hostile, etc.)
Assimilated beliefs (we get these from parents and friends, etc and think that they are reality, so they are no longer conscious "beliefs".
Attitudes and philosophical positions.
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#324 Scribesolomon wrote:
So let us not rush to conclusion about
'Creationists' like Palin. They may very well be right if they don't use the word, 'day' mentioned in Genesis too literally.
As for evolution being used to deny the existence of God, one of the most fundamental laws in science, namely the Second Law of Thermodynamics, states that
nature if left to itself tends to degeneracy (not evolution). Therefore if there is indeed evolution it is not nature, but some other supernatural and intelligent power which is
responsible for evolution.
.......
Its funny how creationists will try to use science when they think there is a slim chance it may help their cause. The 2nd law states that a closed system cannot decrease its entropy without increasing the entropy of the universe. Evolution is fully compatible with the 2nd law.
The point about the length of creation days is much argued but nearly all creationists accept a literal interpretation. However, this is irrelevant. No matter how much tautology is applied to this one set of myths, amongst many, which have come to be so highly regarded through an accident of history, the fact remains that they are myths. Relevant for moral lessons (both positive and negative), an understanding of how that particular people thought at that particular point in history and for entertainment and literary value. But not for explaining nature.
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#331
"Natural law" does not exist. It was an artificial creation invented as a juristic counter to the divine right of kings.
Resort was had to it for such reasons during the American Revolution.
Of course, the Roman Catholic Church will find it as "God's law".
And, international law, in its earliest days, had to have recourse to it.
It is an imagined and very general standard.
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#315, goalsgoals:
As with most complicated philosophies you will not understand Christianity and sum it up in a sentence. Most theologians start with scripture, but then must analyze various translations, origins, weigh in to accuracy of source, consider the historical and social context, etc. What you describe is the simple minded concrete vision of the religion taught to young children.
But, to address your question about heaven. First, it depends on whether you are talking about Catholics or Protestants. A key difference is in the justification by faith alone, or whether one must atone for transgressions. Faith is a concept more complex than acceptance of "truth".
To my understanding; the Judeo-Christian God created Man in order to be steward for creation. Why he created the universe is not clearly explained, but the idea is that Man and God should have a loving relationship. It is probably unproductive in a theological sense to make God in Man's image (anthropomorphize). This God is described as all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, and beyond the limitations of time and space as we understand them.
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330, MarkfromOxford:
Unless the birth was at home, it would be hard to cover up in a hospital. In the US these days, the baby is issued a SS# as well. To cover up too much here would violate Federal and State laws.
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#335 "MarcusAurelius"II wrote
Should President Wilson have anticipated the rise of Nazism in Germany as the result of the vidictive treaty of Versailles he helped pen? Without the slightest doubt. He had an historical model right in front of him, the Reconstruction of the South after the Civil War.
Was FDR one of the best Presidents? No, not by a long shot. Another myth I was taught and convinced of. He did not end the depression, WWII did.
1) Evidently you have not heard of Wilson's 14 points or his maxim of "peace without victory". Wilson was vehemently opposed to war reparations. It was Tiger Clemenceau of France who insisted on reparations.
Wilson had no need of a historical model of Reconstruction, he lived it. He grew up in a Confederate family in Virginia and South Carolina. It was his firsthand experience of Reconstruction that made him so adamantly opposed to reparations.
2) FDR did not end the depression but he did mitigate it. The New Deal provided work for men who might otherwise have been engaged in crime or violent revolution.
One of the requirements for a philosopher is to examine evidence before coming to conclusions. I would suggest you choose another Roman name as your nom de plume. Perhaps Pyrgopolynices or Artotrogus would be more appropriate?
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Mme. Palin is a creationist?! Well, I thought that any of the four (Obama, McCain, Biden, or Palin) would have the intelligence to make the decisions necessary, but now that is in doubt.
I also agree with some bloggers that in the US, this is not such a big problem. To paraphrase Adlai Stevenson, "We have the intelligent voters; now we just need another 49.97% to win."
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Governor Palin will, on the whole, turn out to be a liability for the Republican ticket. It's hard for me to believe that McCain subjected her to any pre-selection vetting process at all. Thanks, Beth, for providing a link to the Anchorage Daily News. There's a wealth of information in that paper concerning the Governor's self serving and mendacious conduct over the past few years, even one of the outdoors columnists (Craig Medred) has ventured an opinion.
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When it comes to voting booth time - ma and pa don't care whose slated for the vp slot.
The conventions this year are a boondoggle and a parade - does anybody really believe they affect the parties agenda? Oh wait a minute Stevie Wonder played at the dems convention, lets ask him.
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#346, Xie_Ming :
But, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were not Catholic or ruled by kings.
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#347 Realfrigid wrote:
To my understanding; the Judeo-Christian God created Man in order to be steward for creation. Why he created the universe is not clearly explained, but the idea is that Man and God should have a loving relationship. It is probably unproductive in a theological sense to make God in Man's image (anthropomorphize). This God is described as all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, and beyond the limitations of time and space as we understand them.
Well, of course it would be beyond those limitations. It has to be on order to justify the impossible events described in their myths. The fact remains, these are myths. Every society in the world has myths, those myths are different depending on circumstance and the surrounding environment. For instance some remote tribes have myths which explain why they are the only people in the world. Those myths hit a bit of a problem when a Victorian explorer wandered by and said "Toodle-pip, chaps" Judeo-Christianity hit its problem starting with Galileo, it has struggled in the face of the facts ever since
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343: fellone: "it really is an expression of pig-headed consistency, stupidly disregarding the life prospects for such babies once born, being unloved, bereft of family support, or having a large probability of being burdened with crippling physical and mental problems due to genetic malformations."
Interesting that you find it acceptable to decide whether the life of the baby, once born, is worthy of occurring at all.
I also notice your describing the Mr. Zorn's position as "pig-headed", "stupid", etc. I found his position quite well-reasoned and consistent.
You've made the mistake of so many pro-choicers. Everyone who is pro-life is not ignorant or wrong. They're simply on the other side of the issue and don't deserve ridicule for being there.
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Steady on people...! Here are some quotes to calm your nerves...
'God a beginningless universe.'
St Augustine.
'Philosophy leaves the world untouched.' Wittgenstein.
'Wine is thicker than water.'
Clochard.
:)
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Could it be that messageboards the world over are having the opposite effect from the one intended? Instead of informing, discussing and broadening our views, could it be that people, almost unintentionally, get pushed into political and religious corners? Couldnt this have the effect of increasing blinkered views of the world rather than diminishing them?
In the face of this seething, confusing, constantly shifting range of human ideas and opinions, the simplest creationist, non-choice, fundamentalism becomes a more attractive option. At least then people 'know where they stand' and the fact that none of it is strictly true becomes a secondary consideration.
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ref #351
You have to remeber newspapers on both side of the spectrum are not objective.
Boston Example
The boston Globe always endorses the Democrat.
The Boston Herald almost always does the Republican.
And I would take Palin's 80% ranking from Alaska voters over a newspapers
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"349. At 4:21pm on 01 Sep 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:
#335 "MarcusAurelius"II wrote
2) FDR did not end the depression but he did mitigate it. The New Deal provided work for men who might otherwise have been engaged in crime or violent revolution.
One of the requirements for a philosopher is to examine evidence before coming to conclusions. I would suggest you choose another Roman name as your nom de plume. Perhaps Pyrgopolynices or Artotrogus would be more appropriate?"
I am afraid the only evidence this poster uses is the legend on his wine lables.
History is not his strong point, neither is geography (political and natural).
The suggestion that FDR ended the Depression is plainly risible. Who ever suggested that he did? How could he?
As for Wilson, amyone who does not know he, practically uniquely of all the WW1 leaders , knew what post-war reconstruction was like shouldn't comment on him.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
361. addendum. April 18, 2008
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#354, The Notting Hill Hammer:
I think it was Catholic dogma that claimed the Earth was the center of the universe. I don't know of any scriptural defense of that position.
To be fair, the Judeo-Christian religion is more than a collection of stories.
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Ed,
yeah it is my belief that that is the best means of determining which beliefs/ positions should be recognised.
Science , reason , objectivity are not beliefs but processes. Which I would contend you use every day to determine most things from day to day.
With all the wonderfully diverse notions beliefs and theories that we as mere mortals confront we must evaluate which to believe for ourselves.
I say it again that the process for selecting facts truths by which we progress mankinds knowledge or societies laws must be science and reason. To do otherwise would be folly...in my opinion.
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#357, sjymusic :
The problem of the internet is lack of an "Editor". In the olden days, an editor acted as the judge of good and bad.
So, in order to assimilate knowledge these days, one must treat every scrap of internet based knowledge as crap until proven differently.
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# 346 #353
The Greeks looked at different polities and tried to find common rules of what seemed just. What they found was contradictory and they did not claim to have found universal laws.
____________________
Today, the issue is arising again in the matter of "human rights".
This is interesting, because there are "Declarations" and "Conventions"
and various groups and reporters start pontificating without study-
it is a matter worthy of careful study.
[Considering the activities of the Bush administration, the USA needs to give the matter a lot of thought]
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# 357
You have identified a principal motive for fundamentalism- seeking something firm in a changing and threatening World.
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348. Real
And? again this is not beyond the realms of contrivance, especially given who was possibly involved and the circumstances. All I am advocating is a thorough and enlightened scepticism until all the answers are in.
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Simon,
His heritage also included less-than-condemnation attitudes to the Klan, among other flaws. Like all of us, he was both good and bad, wise and foolish...Salaam, etc.
ed
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Justin:
The preparedness of the Southern GOP Governors -- particulaly Louisian Gov. Jhindle -- (GOP gov. with the Indian face and slight Louisiana twang -- who gives machin-gun fast and totally thorough briefings of Louisiana draw a stark contrast to the former Democrat Louisiana Gov. Flanco.
Post -- Katrina Louisianans rejected the ineffective Democrat Governor who ran things then...or rather did not run things things then.
Instead they embraced an unconventional Republican, and are now seeing the tremendous difference. Americans will see how refreshingly effective old fashioned conservatism can be when and where it matters most -- in the executive branch.
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Early reports are that Gustav hit land as a category 2 storm. This is good news, but fragile levees will still be tested. Lake Pontchartrain may still be the bane of the Army Corps of Engineers (and the American Tax payers).
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I've been following Justin's blog with disbelief for a while now and have finally found the impetus to sign in and ask this question:
how is it that a bbc reporter can be so unashamedly partisan in his coverage of an international political event? Fair enough, the people who pay his salary (me, for example, and all other British license payers) cannot vote in this election and therefore his blog doesn't have any relevance to what's actually going on but surely there must be some journalistic imperative to be balanced?
I'm genuinely interested to know.
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365, Real.
On the other hand, lots of information sifts through that you cannot get through standard channels. There is much censoring of the media, whether because of advertisers, or to conform to basic government policies.
For instance, if I want the real scoup on the Middle East I am not going to find it on CNN or in The New York Times. I rely on my personal grapevine.
The internet is equivalent to a grapevine. It is up to us to ferret out what is worthwhile.
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realfrigid,
Thanks , and yes it is the strip down religious notion taught to kids. As you said theologians examine sources social context...... I was cutting to the chase.
And you have helped me make my point.
These people use reason to assess this.
"
Most theologians start with scripture, but then must analyze various translations, origins, weigh in to accuracy of source, consider the historical and social context, etc. "
And yes any god would by definition" be beyond the limits of time and space as we understand them"
Do you think we should make our decisions based on theologians assessments of ancient writings on this god?
Or increase our understanding of the limits of time and space through science?
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#308
Already done, Marcus. He's quite vocal, lives somewhere in NJ and is an electrical engineer. He does have delusional moments though.
Sam
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#266, The Notting Hill Hammer, #283, Real:
"Evolution pretty much proves we are the product of genes and chemical accidents."
"Evolutionary theory (I add naturalistic evolution), the fossil record, DNA evidence, and etc. suggests that. It does not prove it"
Enough said.
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Palin has already brought the Republican party down. An aide at the RNC in St. Paul just announced that her 16 year-old daughter is 5 months pregnant AND will be keeping the child and marrying the daughter. So much for pretending to be moralistic! If she can't control her own kids, how is she supposed to run a nation if and when McCain kicks the bucket?
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to Guns 'n' Religion (#189):
Gun-loving usually means violent or having nothing else to deflate your day's stress with. It basically means dangerous. That's what's wrong with gun-lovers
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#368 MarkFromOxford
"All I am advocating is a thorough and enlightened scepticism until all the answers are in".
You? A skeptic? Whatever happened to your Darwinian Faith?
All the answers are not in on naturalistic evolution, yet the creedalists keep shouting down the questions.
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#374, goalsgoals:
"Do you think we should make our decisions based on theologians assessments of ancient writings on this god?"
Science has its place, as does philosophy. I wouldn't shun knowledge or wisdom whatever the source. You have a preference for science, and the Dalai Lama has his preference. Which of you is on the right path? He won't offer much in furthering understanding of Quantum Entanglement, and you won't offer much in helping people to be happier.
Science has little to offer when sewing together the fabric of a society.
"Or increase our understanding of the limits of time and space through science?"
I find imagination and creativity are productive human tools for helping to broaden the base of knowledge through science. Imagination helps to form a hypothesis on making the impossible possible. Humans seem to have a need to pursue spirituality(purpose, if you like) and knowledge, and I don't find these pursuits to be mutually exclusive.
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#324, Scribe of Solomon,
Creationism and it's sister Intelligent Design theoize that since all animal forms are too complex to have been reached by Evolution, then there must be another meachanism i.e. that those features and organs were created spontaneously. Creationism goes further and states that the Earth was created as it is today with all animals, vegetables, minerals etc.
The trouble with this is that it is a refusal to even look around you and see what is going on in the world today, let alone whether evolution operates as a mechanism. While there is no conflict between a belief in God or Gods/the writings of the Bible / Koran and so on, there is a conflict between Creationists and Evolution. Creationists want Creation to be taught as a scientific theory alongside evolution in biology lessons. This is at best misguided and at worst a further attack on the quality of science education in the US. These are often the same people who deny global warming.
For a good explanation, go to youtube and search for Eddie Izzard Evolutionof Eddie Izzard Creationism.
With regards to the second law of thermodynamics, as Simon points out it relates to entropy but more importantly entropy in thermodynamic systems. Oddly, Biological systems do comply with the law even while demonstrably evolving. Even if the law did tend to degeneracy, that is the very mechanism by which genetic mutation takes place and is the fundamental principle behind Phyletic Gradualism, one of the neo-darwinist theories of evolution that can be observed and measured.
This is what happens when non scientists try to use science to counter science. They talk rubbish.
As a Creationist, Palin would place our childrens education and ultimately our economy at risk. For that reason alone she should not be elected.
Sad Sam
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#378
Parissia,
I love my gun and I do find that shooting 50 or 100 clays is a great way to destress. What's wrong with that?
Sad Sam
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"Can you really have a president who denies basic truths about the world?"
What - like God exists and abortion is wrong?
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# 377
On the contrary, that is extremely clever of her to capture the 'spirit' of the recent hit film 'Juno'.
These Reps sure know how to catch the vibe eh?
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Drawing from a line in a favorite British sit-com, "We shall see what we shall see." My thought is that while I do not support Palin or her views, her candidacy represents an ideology that has some favor in the US and it is not an unrealistic to expect that she will be well received in many areas. We are finally seeing the base of the Grand Old Party. This leaves many Americans concerned about the outcome of the general election. With our two-party system, our national power is very often determined by those with no long-standing party affiliation. It is my hope that the greatest impact of swing voters is from those tired of the current administration, those incensed by Palins views, and the newly engaged youth.
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Ref 370
"Instead they embraced an unconventional Republican, and are now seeing the tremendous difference. Americans will see how refreshingly effective old fashioned conservatism can be when and where it matters most -- in the executive branch".
Hopefully, our electorate will make their decision based on competence, demonstrated performance, and integrity.
These attributes are a reflection of the character and judgment of a person, and have little to do with party affiliation.
As for me, I analyze the proposals of each candidate and listen to the ideas they articulate before making a decision. Blue and red are two crayola colors for my youngest grandson to use.
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Somthing religionists cannot grasp, and claim as eidence of error, is that science corrects itself every day.
However, there seems to be a teleology of greater knowledge, (which scriptualists are unable to enjoy).
________________________
Have our fundie/evangelicals any comment to offer:
Five features of fundamentalism were suggested by Ammerman: (1) inerrancy of scripture, (2) evangelism, (3) pre-millennialism, (4) biblical literalism, (5) separation from non-believers or from schismatics.
Whether a “fundamentalist” must embrace all of these attitudes is uncertain.
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#377, cminneapolis:
That depends on if people choose to judge and condemn Sarah Palin, or her daughter.
Palin’s Daughter Pregnant
You are obviously not a parent. I dare you to try to "control" a 17-year old of either sex. Many, many families face this type of problem, even evangelicals. For example, in the research I did earlier on abortion statistics, I found that by religious denomination, 17% are evangelical. 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, and we all probably know someone who is in the same situation.
The Bush twins have had their issues. Carter had Billy, Clinton had well himself, Roger, and Hillary. Chelsea was surprisingly a wall flower compared to her parents. The Reagan's had their issues. Cheney's family is not "acceptable" to the "holier than though" crowd either.
She is not being elected Pope.
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Good interview
Peace
ed
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"Palin has already brought the Republican party down."
Bang on the money cminneapolis - how on earth can Team McCain maintain any shred of credibility ?
If they didn't know about this, then they will be lambasted for their lack of background enquiries and checks.
If they did know about it, then serious, serious questions will be asked about whether the GOP are so short of 'safe pairs of hands' that they had to go with Palin along with this 'excess baggage'.
Shocking, awful, horrible news for John McCain, who I think is a decent guy, and must surely mean that this is now Obama's election to lose ?
Or am I being too short-sighted ? Will most people just ignore the Veep choices ?
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The Palin saga gets more and more astounding. Now its not the "grandmother" issue but her schoolgirl daughter who's five months gone.
This happens to lots of families, but it is not necessarily the best time to announce it when you have just burst unknown onto the scene as candidate for the second most important job in the world - touting your conservative values to boot.
I always though that people indulged themselves in this site because they had a political screw loose (sometimes without the 'political') but the Republican ticket for President and Vice President of the United States become more like the players on the front page of The News of the World with every hour that passes.
Its not a political platform, its a pantomime and a very entertaining one at that..
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Those interested may find out more concerning the Dover court decision that "intelligent design" was a fraud designed to tech creationism may Google:
Pennsylvania + intelligent design + court + decision
"A six-week trial over the issue yielded 'overwhelming evidence' establishing that intelligent design 'is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory,' said [Judge]Jones, a Republican and a churchgoer appointed to the federal bench three years ago. "
[The ethics and morality of those who advance such claims appear reprehensible and an insult to real Christians]
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Good points Sam, Cool One, and Mr Constable, and NWecotopian.
Peace, and we will indeed see what we shall see (note words and order)
ed
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I think there is one thing that is necessary to understand in this debate. The core issue is "Belief".
"Epistemology is the philosophical study of knowledge and belief. A primary problem for epistemology is exactly what is needed in order for us to have knowledge. In a notion derived from Plato's dialogue Theaetetus, philosophy has traditionally defined knowledge as justified true belief. The relationship between belief and knowledge is that a belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true.
A false belief is not considered to be knowledge, even if it is sincere. A sincere believer in the flat earth theory does not know that the Earth is flat. Similarly, a truth that nobody believes is not knowledge, because in order to be knowledge, there must be some person who knows it.
Later epistemologists have questioned the "justified true belief" definition, and some philosophers have questioned whether "belief" is a useful notion at all."Wikipedia
In essence anyone who profess a "belief" as knowledge do not understand what "reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance" means. Alternatively is using the word incorrectly out of ignorance, or with malice intentions.
I personally like to think of belief as the permanent state of a "suspension of disbelief".
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I forgot to add to my post that I would put my money on Justin's second option. I think that after two weeks of unendurable pressure of her views and her family (which a responsible Party would have warned her about in the first place) she'll withdraw and keep her dignity.
Angus
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#391, wanderingangus:
How would you feel about a brother who;
a) is involved with the Gambino crime family,
b) convicted and sentenced to 45 years for heroin trafficking,
c) lobbies the President to pardon mafioso's,
d) is involved with shady deals in Locke and Morton,
e) ended up pardoned for all crimes by Mr. Clinton.
I can cut Ms. Palin's daughter some slack.
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Brilliant!
May I quote you?
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Well said, Cool One (396)
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Frigid
I feel quite a lot about it. I was appalled that the Clinton family wanted to come back into presidential life. But we're past that now.
We're on to the here and now - which is getting to know Gov. Palin and how she reconciles some of her more extreme and simplistic views with the hard realities of life.
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People who would condemn Sarah Palin for a pregnant daughter, would probably be the same moralists who already condemn McCain for a wishy washy stance on Abortion. Since when have the Dems been the paragon's of moral virtue?
Will this drive away erstwhile McCain supporters? Probably not. They were ok with Cheney's gay daughter.
It is reprehensible for a former DNC chairman to imply Gustav is God's wrath on the Republicans.
It is reprehensible for a party who's last President was caught playing hide the cigar with a young intern to condemn this woman.
Talk about double standards. How do these people look in the mirror. It is this "win at any cost" mentality that makes politics sleazy and diminishes the Presidency and the process.
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Ed Iglehart:
sure, have fun.
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# 394
Good points, but fundies will only pick up on Plato, unfortunately.
_________________________
I have mentioned that US fundamentalists/evangelicals are driven by an inclucated sense of guilt, which offers the spin-masters a manipulative handle.
Did you know about the President of "Parents Against Kiddie Porn"?
He cut quite a swathe in the newspapers and TV-
until convicted on charges of child-molestation!
{And, Ed, didn't Bobby Burns have something to say about the fellow who sang loudest in Church?}
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And, may I congratulate the moderation system on its vast improvement in speed, compared to 12 months (or even six) most of the time.
The Mods are as Gods; still loads of room for improvement, of course.
So thanks
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400:"It is reprehensible for a former DNC chairman to imply Gustav is God's wrath on the Republicans."
The same way Republicans said that Katrina was God's wrath against liberals?
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XM, don't forget to out Ted Haggard.
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To #13
I never used to be a registered member of this blog stuff, but having read what you've written (ProfCapelo) I feel compelled to reply.
You write: "Give me one positive proof that naturalistic evolution is empirically true, otherwise, ventilate the space, and let the questions be asked... "
A good example of how evolution exists is shown with 'our best friend' the dog. Indeed the method of examining this relies on methods concerning evolution itself - DNA testing. All modern dogs descend from some kind of wolf - but oh look what all the selection and inbreeding has done! (There was a program about this recently but its been known for 5 years). And you want a question asked in return now? How about explaining some creationism with 'emperical' truths? I can't stand wishy-washy argument starters!
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I'm at a loss to explain Gov. Palin as his pick... except that by choosing one with such little experience it draws attention to the lack of experience of his oponent. And since American elections are not about the Ticket but about the presidential candidates, it may prove to be an astute move.
But if ever there was a VP candidate that matters, it would be for the person who would be the oldest ever president at the time of his election.
I can't even picture Gov. Palin as President of the US... and I think one needs to be able to picture that.
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First: Justin Webb, I'm sure there is a commandment somewhere to bloggers keeping to one topic per post. Your comments boxes are a huge mess.
Second: To Andrea in NY: please don't take the moral high ground here. We all care about human life, but a two-week-old fetus is not a baby. Many spontaneous miscarriages are natural (and desirable) and you'd be bananas to perform the religious rituals upon one (if you'd noticed) It's just a matter of fact and common sense.
You may disagree and live accordingly, but you won't convince the 50yo grandmother to take an accidental pregnancy to full term. She'll go see Vera Lake. But then, it'd all be clean and shiny on the surface and you'd sleep well at night.
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Frigid writes from a Republican perspective (and I agree with him that no one is interested in the sexual orientation of Cheney's daughter, but Cheney never ran on a "morality" platform).
However Frigid writes disparagingly of the "win at any cost" mentality and there are those of us who have watched this unprecedented campaign and who have seen a serious, principled and coolheaded man on one side and someone who doesn't really know where he stands on the other.
Obama is exactly where he wants to be at this stage of the campaign. John McCain, for all his endearing appeal, seems to have lost the plot.
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Xie_Ming, This from Wee Rab
Holy Willie's PrayerPeace,
ed
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I find it quite disturbing to hear about Palin and her belief in fairy stories. Unfortunately for people who subscribe to the creationist viewpoint, the evidence against their argument is absolutely overwhelming. Anyone who has attended any form of unbiased education in science will dismiss any creationist with authority. But the people that believe in these religious based views are not predisposed to having an open mind and usually do not listen at all. Palin has a very high chance of being in charge of the biggest and most aggressive military and intelligence machine that the world has ever seen is disturbing. I pray to whatever god the fundamentalist evnagelical christiians in the US believe in, tha we don't have any more years of misguided US led military adventures due to an ignorant US Executive.
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Mrs. Palin's nomination as John McCain's VP may be broken-down in 10 Simple Steps:
1. Democrats diss Dame Hillary for Prez;
2. Male Dem (i.e, Obama) given the nod over Dame Hillary, by fellow "pro-Male" Dems.
3. Obama flounders in Denver, based on the simple, but simply-ignored FACT that Dame Hillary had more POPULAR support than this Dem-picked Dude.
5. McCain sees (...or has his chin raised and pointed in the direction of ...?!?) a possible Tactical Avenue to tramp down!
6. Voila! Hey Presto! and Eureka, too! The GOB has "found" THE PURRRFECT SOLUTION to the Dems' conundrum: yank A WOMAN CARD (..any lump o' hormones will do...!) outta their own oft-played pack, and flourish same before the Great American People. Revelling as theydo in the fact that the DEMS squandered their OWN opportunity to stage this coup thru' blatant misogyny and manipulative spite.
7. Ensure that the GOP's female Vice-Man has ONLY the kinds of "skeletons" in her own and family's closets that will cement their philosophical and ideological tenets: e.g., Pro-Life? "Show 'em we can have dozens of unwanted babies, and love 'em all!" Multiple-Views on Creation? "Eden or Bust!"
8. Ensure too, that the liberal females out there (..you know, the ones who STILL THINK DAME HILLARY SHOULD BE THEIR PRESIDENT!...) buy into the whole "Palin-as-Promotor-of-Women's-Rights!" campaign.
9. When 8 fails (...AS IT SURELY WILL!..), do what America does best - to its own Citizens, and those of other countries: invite the evangelicals Christian Soldiers to 'take-up' their bloody Swords, and pugilisticall Fight the Good Fight of ideological intimidation, social harangue, and moral hypocristy...all in the name of Family Values!
10. If and whether the dust settles or not, Corpus Americana will continue to clank along: equal parts Frankenstein Monster, and equal parts contented Monster-Creator.
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Mrs. Palin's nomination as John McCain's VP may be broken-down in 10 Simple Steps:
1. Democrats diss Dame Hillary for Prez;
2. Male Dem (i.e, Obama) given the nod over Dame Hillary, by fellow "pro-Male" Dems.
3. Obama flounders in Denver, based on the simple, but simply-ignored FACT that Dame Hillary had more POPULAR support than this Dem-picked Dude.
5. McCain sees (...or has his chin raised and pointed in the direction of ...?!?) a possible Tactical Avenue to tramp down!
6. Voila! Hey Presto! and Eureka, too! The GOP has "found" THE PURRRFECT SOLUTION to the Dems' conundrum: yank A WOMAN CARD (..any lump o' hormones will do...!) outta their own oft-played pack, and flourish same before the Great American People. Revelling as they do in the fact that the DEMS squandered their OWN opportunity to stage this coup thru' blatant misogyny and manipulative spite.
7. Ensure that the GOP's female Vice-Man has ONLY the kinds of "skeletons" in her own and family's closets that will cement their philosophical and ideological tenets: e.g., Pro-Life? "Show 'em we can have dozens of unwanted babies, and love 'em all!" Multiple-Views on Creation? "Eden or Bust!"
8. Ensure too, that the liberal females out there (..you know, the ones who STILL THINK DAME HILLARY SHOULD BE THEIR PRESIDENT!...) buy into the whole "Palin-as-Promotor-of-Women's-Rights!" campaign.
9. When 8 fails (...AS IT SURELY WILL!..), do what America does best - to its own Citizens, and those of other countries: invite the evangelicals Christian Soldiers to 'take-up' their bloody Swords, and pugilistically Fight the Good Fight of ideological intimidation, social harangue, and moral hypocrisy...all in the name of Family Values!
10. If and whether the dust settles or not, Corpus Americana will continue to clank along: equal parts Frankenstein Monster, and equal parts contented Monster-Creator.
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A question for those that think France is less than america and would call" french "fries and "french" doors--- freedom fries and freedom doors.
What does that make the french
the freedom
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Wouldn't you know it? Moderation suddenly is taking at least half an hour. Shift change? Tea break?
Cheers!
ed
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#383
How about 'Abstinence works'
Until it doesn't.
Sam
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Ed - at 7.01 p.m.
Well done - the mods have gone off to the nearest pub to drink champagne after your comment.
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#388. RealFrigid: "You are obviously not a parent. I dare you to try to "control" a 17-year old of either sex." But couldn't she have been taught the benefits of contraception? It is my understanding that Mrs Palin would not approve the use of condoms or any other form, let alone "the morning after pill". As for sexual relations outside marriage, that surely must outrage a lot of conservatives - and the poor boy who is going to become a husband far too early in his life has a very tough time ahead. That Mrs Palin is forgiving of her own daughter is positive, would only that she be so forgiving of those who have other views.
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The fatal strike against Palin, and hence the Republican candidacy, is her denial of the human link to current climate change. Every other strike against her pales in comparison to this one in terms of its potential effect on human civilization.
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#400
Fridge,
I think it's because most liberals would like to live their lives as they see fit, and extend the belief to others. Whereas most Republicans want us to live as they see fit.
I don't care who the President has any kind of sexual encounter with, unless he tells me I can't do the same.
What was interesting was the Palins saying they are glad Bristol chose to keep the child. A choice they would deny rape victims.
It's not the belief, it's the hypocrisy.
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Palin
I think her tune on NO ABORTION would change if she was gang raped and got pregnant.
To force a woman who has been raped to carry the child is sick.
It may be that is" Gods way".
It may be that the child will grow up fine(probable even).
But the mother has to look at the rapist as a child.
health concerns termination.
Force a woman to carry a child that they Know they cannot afford to keep in nannies as they work their min wage job with republicans cutting any help ,allowing rich doctors to ream them..
Are the pro lifers going to pay extra taxes to help pay the way of the child with the deformity.
I wish.
I know down syndrome is not something I would Kill a Kid Over, but if I were to face that situation I would get back to the UK where I would get some help for the Kid.
If the pro lifers want to talk ethics they should talk about helping people more. Create a world so nice no one would want an abortion.
Back to the rape victims .
When will the first case where a rapist sues the mother to force her to carry the child to term.
The rapist gets 2 years the mother seeking the abortion gets ?
What about the girls that will be killed because Daddy (the rapist) got angry because she was pregnant and could never say who the father was.
Does america do pregnancy tests at the airport to prevent girls travelling to get an abortion(irish try to stop a kid going to the UK).
SICK SICK SICK how anyone can think this Palin is anything other than a sick twisted weirdo is beyond me.
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# 267 Allmymarbles
Dear Allmymarbles
Please for give me I am confused.
Marcus does not give complements.
Post# 56 he definitely said,
I am as irrepressable....as Hyacinth Bucket.
Now, as we say in Wales one mans Toga is
another mans cocktail dress!!.
I find this rather odd that a man finds him
self irrepressable "as " Hyacinth Bucket....
Colour me bewildered
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Angus, I wonder if it's nectar they drink, while nibbling a bit of ambrosia...
;-)
ed
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Whats the law in Alaska. should the father be in jail for statutory and have a sex offender label out side his house.
It is important.
IS she one that believes in not teaching contraception.
that abstinance is the best way to prevent pregnancies.
If the Gop are to accuse others of immoral behaviour and hold them selves up as good.
to prosecute and persecute others is hypocracy.
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How much longer before British scientists create a mutant crossbreed between a simian and a homo sapien or have they already?
they did but some creatures cannot recognise them selves in the mirror so you never noticed.
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249 yes he fancies you.
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ukeofwales, I reserve my compliments for those who deserve it when they deserve it. If I give out few here, it's because I do not give them gratuitously. That makes them worth something. For example, the fact that maybe made mead wine that was extremely pleasing to her is something worth praising. I don't know if I would have liked it but that doesn't matter, she created herself.
Now you on the other hand say you are confused. And I compliment you for recognizing this truth about yourself. It is not everyone who will take a hard look past his ego and see himself for what he is. I saw it right away but if I commented on it, you didn't take it seriously. I don't know what you can do about it but recognizing it is a good start.
As for Hyacinth Bucket, she is certainly irrepressable. My favorite episode is the one where she and Richard stole a Rolls Royce and were eventually aprehended by the police. I wonder in bethpa's ideal world who would get the Rolls Royces and who would wind up with bicycles.
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#424, jacksforge :
The age of consent is 16 for both male and female. Age difference of >3 years if under 18.
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418, David_Cunard :
"It is my understanding that Mrs Palin would not approve the use of condoms or any other form, let alone "the morning after pill". As for sexual relations outside marriage, that surely must outrage a lot of conservatives - and the poor boy who is going to become a husband far too early in his life has a very tough time ahead. That Mrs Palin is forgiving of her own daughter is positive, would only that she be so forgiving of those who have other views."
From what I've read, Sarah Palin does advocate birth control. Also, that as governor she followed the law, not her faith. For example, she vetoed a bill that would have blocked gays and lesbians from health and other benefits provided to state workers's domestic partners. It was unconstitutional.
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#409, wanderingangus:
"Frigid writes from a Republican perspective..."
Of course, I'm not one. I'm libertarian, and not American so you have nothing to fear from me.
* I am pro-freedom, social and economic
* I admire people of good character
* I am against mud slinging, swiftboating, etc.
* I admire much of what America was founded upon, and I wish she would return to that model.
That would be disparagingly of the campaign tactics from 2004. So far, McCain's/Barrack's campaigns have set a different tone.
I'm also intentionally challenging the propensity for this blog to lean to one side. I can see both sides, and so I'm challenging the rhetoric that would other wise be merely McCain slams and Obama cheerleading.
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#404, Ptrsln:
Franklin Graham is a preacher which actually does give him the right to condemn New Orleans sin. He very well may be a Republican or maybe he is a Democrat, but he has never held public office.
If a Republican said that though, yes it would be reprehensible. Our government officials should not be justifying tragedy as the wrath of God.
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#420, SamTyler1969:
Both sides moralize in their own way. The Dems want to regulate when I can water my lawn, and remove my rights as a parent to control what my children learn.
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#427, MarcusAureliusII:
You might want to try the same tactic with insults. :) Just a thought.
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]Anyone concerned with the creationist/ID efforts, must download and save this detailed (139 pages) court opinion.
It reviews the US legal history and then documents, step by step, the deception and perjury of the "born-agains" in their attempt to force ID on the Dover, Penna school students.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
The court demonstrates that "intelligent design" was substituted in writings referring to "creationism", etc., and that "intelligent design" is not at all a science, etc.
We have seen some of the same ploys repeated here on this thread, ploys that the court has identified, examined and exposed.
Get the court's finding and save it!
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Maybe someone brought this up already, but weren't there some Evangelical protesters outside the Democratic National Convention praying for rain? I guess they got the storm they were praying for.
That's the problem with praying for rain. Rain will always come eventually, though often not when and where most desired.
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#427
Intresting character to admire. She's concumed by social airs and graces, looks down on others, is pretentious, worries more about what others think of her than achieving something and is largely ignorant.
Bemused Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
421, Jack.
Where have you been for the last 24 hours? Would you believe that the main subject has been abortion? How can that take up a whole day when there is so little to talk about? You do or you don't. But it has been field day for philosophers.
Since it was impossible to inject humor, without the threat of tar and feather, things have been very dull. Couldn't even spread the delicious rumor about Palin openiy without being punished by the moderators.
Welcome back.
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421, Jack.
Actually there was some humor. It was called "creationism."
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]This frightens the moderators greatly and yet it is but the verbatim of a US co