Did she connect with you?
I thought Michelle Obama's speech was effective but not a knock-out; it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word) - it merely begins the fight back against them.
Some felt more positive about it and some saw it for what it (probably) was, an opening effort more than a clincher.
As I was leaving the convention centre I saw the motorcade taking Michelle and the children home, all of them sitting in a row in a big Suburban surrounded by gun-toting secret service men. It is a privileged life they are leading, but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy...
Meanwhile this is hilarious - deserves to be reported as fact...
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~31~RS~)
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The speech was great, really Michelle is in a difficult position she can't fight back against the smears directly but she has to do it indirectly. If she appears to be acting too patriotic it's not going to come off as genuine. However I don't think anyone can hear the story of her life and not connect with her in some way.
Of course I think Obama's daughters should get more than $1 a week after that performance they gave at the end. It came off as very authentic and real which humanized the Obama family.
It's going to be really interesting to contrast any role Cindy has at the RNC Convention to Michelle Obama's, it says a lot that Obama named Michelle as one of the 3 wisest people he knows. John McCain didn't say the same of his wife.
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She did a fine job. She came across as pleasant and articulate, which was all that was required. It's basically a non-issue, although she is more likeable now.
The rest of the evening was a surprising flop, although Kennedy was moving.
The Dems need to start selling their product very soon. No one knows what the content is, and the brand name is rapidly wearing thin.
If they think attacking McCain will win the election for them, they can forget it. They have to start providing something real in the form of policies. There is nothing at all so far, except some intriguing ideas on health care and large tax increases. But that isn't enough.
As a matter of interest: I am still new here, and I am curious as to what happens to this blog if in the event that McCain wins (I know - the apocalypse will take place and all that - but it is possible)
This seems to be a blog devoted to Obama. Does it come to and end after the election? Or does it move to other topics?
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Risforme:
"It came off as very authentic and real which humanized the Obama family. "
Well, yes it was nice - but I already know they are human and real and he has a nice family.
There's more than enough syrup and sentiment and emotion in the Obama campaign. I don't need to be told he is stuffed with love and hope and warmth and sweetness. Oprah Winfrey and CNN and Time Magazine tell me that all the time.
He is also stuffed with ambition, and I want to know what his policies are - specifically.
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Michelle Obama's speech was a knock out! Utterly perfect in every way. Every time she opens her mouth she manages to inspire me more. She is going to be a fabulous First Lady and a terrific role model for young people in U.S. she made us all very proud tonight with her wit, charm, warmth and abundant intelligence.
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"There's more than enough syrup and sentiment and emotion in the Obama campaign. I don't need to be told he is stuffed with love and hope and warmth and sweetness. Oprah Winfrey and CNN and Time Magazine tell me that all the time.
He is also stuffed with ambition, and I want to know what his policies are - specifically. "
From Tim,
Blame it on the Republicans for that. The Democrats saw what happened 4 years ago when you try to rise above it and not address problems.
John McCain was the first one to go off the issues with the Celeb attacks. We haven't been on the issues since.
This was the first night, to let people know who Obama is, tomorrow and Wednesday are going to be much better days for policy wonks. If you're interested just go to Obama's website and take a look at the blue book that has all of his policies in detail.
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Prospective first ladies should have no major voice in the campaign. We are not voting for Michelle Obama or Cindy McCain, but for their husbands, and our votes for them should not be influenced by how we feel about their wives.
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Ris:
"Blame it on the Republicans for that. The Democrats saw what happened 4 years ago when you try to rise above it and not address problems."
Oh no - I expect people to take responsibility for themselves. Both parties are responsible for their successes and failures.
Self-pity and self-righteousness are serious problems for the Dems. They were not like that in the past. Imagine Truman whining and feeling sory for himself like the current crop of Dems!
It's time for them to find a message and communicate it - NOW. Never mind how it's all the Republicans' fault.
As far as I am concerned, I don't want to hear any more hot air. "Just the facts, ma'm"
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38, Axecon, Huh???
Oh, and the Illuminati are busy dealing
with Global Warming.
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7 out of 10.
The problem being she is now a creation of her handlers and not the lady we met on the campaign trail. Yes, a necessary political move but transparent none the less.
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I was absolutely disgusted by the entire convention. My country is ailing. Our economy is failing, the government is constantly taking more and more of our rights, our Constitution is never treated with anything but contempt, and none of these problems are even mentioned. Instead of blabbing on about how amazing these people are, it would be nice to hear what Obama's great "plan for change" actually is. This guy is a disgrace to this country and her people, he is a communist in disguise.
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I'm going to have to check out the Borowitz
report regularly from now on - now it and
the Onion News have to vie for my time.
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Timothy # 3
See Justin's introduction at top right hand of his page. The blog doesn't HAVE to be about Obama but the Brits are fascinated by the possibility of him as POTUS and lots of Americans seem to have piled in - on both sides of the debate.
To many of us, Obama seems like the personification of the fabled American dream whereas McCain is another of those elderly American gents who win the prize through fair means or foul and get us all into the sort of place we are in today.
To explain the British attitude, the country feels bruised and resentful because it was led into a "dumb war" (very much against the public wish) by W and his gruesome gang. And now both countries are in real financial trouble on the back of the sub-prime fiasco and by high oil prices which many attribute to the US/UK keeping the Middle East in a febrile state of tension.
Several BBC commentators run blogs - on, for instance, sport, the economy, home politics - but the presidential race is the most interesting thing going on in the world at this moment.
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She said one thing, but her face said another.
She said "I Love America".....
What she meant was "America is not my country"
These are the type of comments I find most hilarious and saddest at the same time.
Firstly the posters w/ the most extreme or negative views are like this guy...or gal full of conspiracy and suspicion and are amateur psychologists.
I just picture Homer Simpson delivering their lines.
The most positive, upbeat posters are always the more articulate, seemingly better educated.
All in all though the sad part is that the "she's suspicious", or "Obama just doesn't feel right" responses are just thinly veiled racism. Real Americans like myself are ashamed of you Homers.
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I am ashamed that a fair amount of the comments posted here by Americans (my fellow citizens) are the bilious, snarky and mind numbingly idiotic comments of the minority of the minority of marginalized political movements ... like our friend who calls himself "JackLibertarian" or the oddball who managed to get in the first comment, and sings his own praises as "splendidUSMark". For all you BBC wondernauts who thought "Have Your Say" and reader comments in general are the brilliant new way to change the face journalism (by handing it over to everyone but journalists!), I need only to point to Justin's blog and the unutterably useless blather that goes on here. Though, Mr. Webb, I of respect your efforts to peel the onion of America, I am amazed by your often staggeringly clueless remarks (e.g., "it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness")... as well as the clueless responses to those remarks.
Is this journalism, or capitulation to fuzzy thinking and the random thoughts of every single person on Earth?
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Consider the Convention as Theatre, even Vaudeville/Music Hall. These were the opening acts, designed to warm-up the delegates, nothing too difficult to understand, pleasantries all 'round, and a feel-good atmosphere. Tomorrow, when Mrs Clinton speaks, may have more drama - the mere mention of her name elicited a huge roar of approval. It may be a bit drawn out, but the programme is well set and the Star will eventually appear for an "eleven o'clock song" and a happy Grand Finale. Only then does the Candidate get down to work.
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I heard Justin's report on Radio 4 this morning so that is the extent of my knowledge of her speech but she seemed to come across well and be well received by the crowd. Interesting to note that the candidates spouse is given such coverage. Politics in much of Europe is more party and less personal and so the family life of the candidates is less to the fore (it goes without saying that most countries like to see evidence that the candidate is a happy husband/wife and father/mother). It would be difficult to immagine Gordon Brown video linking to "I love you daddy" at the labour party conference. It's just a different approach that sounds odd to euro-ears but is perfectly valid.
PS. Justin what's a suburban - assume some sort of hybrid 4x4/tank?
PPS surely the bbc can afford a dictionary so you can check if words are real or not?
You're all doing very well !!
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ChanceyThe Gardener: To explain the British attitude, the country feels bruised and resentful because it was led into a "dumb war" (very much against the public wish) by W and his gruesome gang. And now both countries are in real financial trouble on the back of the sub-prime fiasco and by high oil prices which many attribute to the US/UK keeping the Middle East in a febrile state of tension.
For the benefit of any Ameroicans reading this- that's not the UK's attitude, that is Chancey's opinion.
Personally I find the Obama campaign hilarious, not least for its lack of clarity. Watching all the "good Americans" bending over backwards to patronise Obama is great. Would they be so keen on a hispanic candidate?
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Democratic elections are fought on looks and sentiment...
and cheating, John M will win, I don't like it but that's what will happen. This system has gone full circle and is no more a democracy as the monarchies they support in the middle east.
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It was all hot air, signifying NOTHING! Empty words like selling detergent or second-hand cars. If that is the level of the leading American politicians, then God help us all, because no-one else will!
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I've got a feeling that Obama is not only going to lose the election, he's going to lose easily ... a bit embarrasing that, for the US, since we know what the reason will be and it won't be anything to do with policy or lack of experience.
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Barack Obama lost me during the flack about his pastor's comments.
Barack wants us to belive he never heard the sermons of his pastor, the Right Reverend 'God Damn America' Jeremiah Wright. Barack attended church there for over 20 years. Records show he was married there by this very pastor, and his children were baptized there.
This massive church congregation, seen jumping, hooting and howling to the pastor'swords in the background are disgusting. Barack, don't tell us you attended church there for 20 years and never heard anything negative.
I won't vote for you!
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Even if not perfect (as in soundly thrashing the criticisms which have sprung up), Michelle Obama's was a pretty good speech. Heads and shoulders above those who just tossed around key phrases such as 'one nation under God (emphasized)' and 'hardworking Americans' thinking that by throwing a miniscule bone to evangelicals and blue-collar workers would win them their votes. Sort of insulting, actually.
Michelle Obama did decently showing her and Barack's understanding of how things are to be in a lower-income household, while pointing out the virtues of working hard and respecting all people. For those looking for a 'simple housewife,' Obama did come across as being strong. However, such demonstrated strength could be an asset to winning the 'women scorned' (old feminist women angry that Clinton didn't win the nomination--a demographic that is more threatening to Barack's prospects of winning than 'hardworking Americans', by the way). Hillary Clinton was often referred to as a co-President to Bill. Another Michelle Obama offers another dual Presidency of sorts, especially if McCain doesn't pick a woman for Vice President (why would liberal, feminist women vote for McCain just to punish Obama?).
Michelle Obama did a far more decent job than Cindy McCain would be able to do. Though ultimately Americans aren't voting for Michelle or Cindy, but for Barack Obama or John McCain.
(And, as usually, the Democrats were excessively emotional, with all the tearing up, chanting, and party behavior. Will the Republicans follow their norm of expressing excitement with a light polite clapping here and there?)
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To chancythegardener #14 who said:
--
To explain the British attitude, the country feels bruised and resentful because it was led into a "dumb war" (very much against the public wish) by W and his gruesome gang. And now both countries are in real financial trouble on the back of the sub-prime fiasco and by high oil prices which many attribute to the US/UK keeping the Middle East in a febrile state of tension.
--
Opinion polls in Britain were in favour of the Iraq War for some time after it started. They were not just beforehand and I have not seen one recently but I believe very much against the public wish is much too strong.
The Iraq War was very much against the wish of the left wing of the Labour Party who hated Tony Blair for his Clintonite policies, which many in the USA would regard as left wing anyway. Pouring money into healthcare and education were features of the Tony Blair regime.
I believe the whole western world is in trouble with the subprime fiasco. You may recall that French banks were very exposed. The whole thing is subsumed in the UK under the title Credit Crunch . I doubt the average British person blames the USA specifically for it. They more likely blame Gordon Brown.
Gordon Brown, rather comically, was seen as some kind of standard bearer of the left which he never was. He was arguably more Clintonite than Tony Blair. His key problem is that he was Chancellor of the Exchequer (Secretary of the Treasury) for all of the time Tony Blair was Prime Minister.
That means Gordon Brown gets blamed for everything financial that happens in the UK. There is, of course, a different Chancellor now, Alistair Darling. The problem is that Darling is so self-effacing and Gordon Brown so politically dominant that Brown still/i> gets blamed for everything financial.
I believe high oil prices are blamed primarily on demand from China and India but also partly on speculative buying, like in the commodities market, which is settling down now. The Chinese and Indian demand will only grow. The Chinese are, of course, watching people get murdered in North Darfur for their oil but that does not get mentioned much.
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Michelle Obama gave a stirring speech evoking the very best family values of a decent human being. This will galvanize the Democratic Party and propel Obama to the White House come January 2009. Behind every successful man is a loving spouse. Michelle spoke from the heart and electrified the adoring audience with her charm and honesty.
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Oh, and Leach was b-r-a-v-e. Sticking up for the Republican Party, and pointing out several of the good things Republicans have done for the United States, among people who (by-and-large) instinctively respond to hearing 'Republican' with 'evil racist moronic religious fundamentalist nutcases.'
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#16
>> I am ashamed that a fair amount of the comments posted here by Americans (my fellow citizens) are the bilious, snarky and mind numbingly idiotic comments of the minority of the minority of marginalized political movements ... For all you BBC wondernauts who thought "Have Your Say" and reader comments in general are the brilliant new way to change the face journalism (by handing it over to everyone but journalists!), I need only to point to Justin's blog and the unutterably useless blather that goes on here.
Dude, welcome to the internet. It's almost impossible to have a meaningful (or even civil) discourse on it.
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This may be because I'm Canadian, but I was surprised when following the American election how many politicians use the the term 'American dream' with complete sincerity.
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It is unnerving how much Justin seems to be campaigning against Obama. He talks about perceived patriotism? But, who are you to grade Michelle Obama's patriotism?
And then, in a very subtle political fashion you associate the Obama's with your worst enemies.
I am utterly disappointed.
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I realize this is a blog, but as an editor you should further explain your comments:
"it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word)"
I've heard the lack of patriotism comment--how does "I love America" (not a direct quote) not address the eejit accusation that was pretty weak in the first place?
And what is this "oddness" you bring up? Could you be more specific please, Justin?
Yes, effeteness is a word. But again, how you apply it to Michelle in tandom with "odd" is very unclear. Here is the definition (and believe me, before I sign off here, I do love slappin' my opinion out there too, but you're supposedly an editor for the BBC so I would expect a little better):
Effete:
1. lacking in wholesome vigor; degenerate; decadent: an effete, overrefined society.
2. exhausted of vigor or energy; worn out: an effete political force.
3. unable to produce; sterile.
Please do explain how this definition applies to Michelle Obama.
Cheers,
Pat Gallagher
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Just a couple of thoughts . . .
On the blog itself: Michelle Obama's speech went a lot farther countering the allegations of lack of patriotism and her "effeteness" than you give it credit. She was warm, intelligent, and genuine. All you had to do was observe the faces of many of the women in the hall to know she had done what she set out to do.
To those who complain about Obama and/or the Democrats not being specific: You either haven't been paying attention or you wouldn't recognize specificity if you were holding it in your hand. If you have questions, go to his campaign web site--there are enough details there to satisfy any policy wonk. If you can't be bothered, I can only take it that you are not serious in your criticism.
The party itself is quite clear on its policies of taxes, health care, Iraq, foreign trade, individual rights and the Constitution, and all the other major issues of the day. Again, I ask, "Where have you been?"--or are you being deliberately ignorant to try to make a snarky point?
To those such as "splendidUSmark" and his ilk: ignorance, hate, and racism is never pretty. You are entitled to your opinion--anyone can have an opinion--but not every opinion is entitled to the same respect. It makes you feel good to spew your garbage, but anyone with a whit of intelligence and experience will dismiss it as the sewage it is.
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The fact that she had to make a speech like this, defines the problem she represents to Team Obama ? that there are swathes of America that doubt she holds such values ? and the speech should be seen as what it is, a flu treatment that masks the symptoms rather than deals with virus meme of Obama otherness.
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This is a great lady and I listened to one of her early radio interviews and know she is rock.
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Allmymarbles, my apologies for the delay
in continuing our discussion on the previous
blog page, as my internet connection went
down.
Regarding the British contribution to WWII,
I have this to say:
Allmy, I assure you that, if not for the Brits, some ruthless
totalitarian regime would be running things now.
Britain, while still an empire, stood alone for about a full year
after the fall of France opposing the Nazi onslaught, until Hitler
gave up, and turned east towards Russia.
Roosevelt did everything he could to get aid to the British, who took
a terrible pounding the whole time. If we had not been attacked by the
Japanese, then our entry into the war would have been delayed even
further, and the entire world would be different today, and probably a
lot worse than it is.
One could criticize the British and the French for not entering the
war when Czechoslovakia was dismembered, but at least they called
Hitler's bluff when he attacked Poland, along with his ally, Russia.
We, on the other hand, did not enter the war until we were attacked,
prompting Adolf Hitler to proclaim, "The Isolationists are winning
the war for us."
To Russia, by the way, we owe nothing, as they conspired to carve up
Poland along with the Nazis, and only entered the war when the Nazi
beast turned on them.
There is a reason why one of our ships is named the Winston S. Churchill ,
and a great bond exists between us and them to this day because of
what the people of that brave little island did to prevent the world
from entering a new dark age.
There is no other ship in the American navy which has a permanent
posting of a foreign naval officer. We owe a great debt of gratitude
to the Brits for holding the fort, until we finally, and involuntarily,
entered the war.
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I found the speech had already been set up by the media. They always do that. We were unable to hear anything said by Nancy Pelosi. The CNN group just sat there giving their opinions on everything. The speech by Leach, (that rimes) was deadly boring. Michelle came across as sincere but her speech was already so outlined beforehand by the media that it came across as bland. There are some people who still hold it against her for saying that she only then felt American. This conjured up all the wicked stereotypes which have been ascribed to her. The media is too much with us and it does not allow the speaker any opportunity to be spontaneous. Obama and his family are perhaps too decent for us. The first night of the convention was awkward but I am sure that tonight will make up for that slow beginning.
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The Americans have a choice of an old white guy and a young black guy.
They will all say in public they're gonna vote for the young black guy. But when they get in that booth and that pen hovers, they'll mark their X for the old white guy.
Obama can't win in November.
McCain will be president.
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Wonder ever a would be first lady has ever given more dignified speech introducing her spouse at a convention in the past.
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I hope her speech had the desired effect because I want Obama to win. However, I find the idea of a candidate's wife (or husband) making a keynote speech kind of distressing. Politics should be about policy and vision, not about photo ops and corny exchanges with the kids.
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"it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word) - it merely begins the fight back against them"
The perceivers are the ones with the problem. The problem is that they have a disproportionately loud voice. Most reasonable people who have a brain cell and without an agenda do not have a problem with her.
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Justin, you are of the opinion that Michelle Obama's speech was "an opening effort more than a clincher".
Firstly, the link you provide does not, as you suggest, back up that comment. It doesn't refer to Michelle's speech, other than to say that it will be happening. You can't have read it.
Secondly, a clincher to what?. This could mean anything.
Could you try to explain your supposedly media wise pronouncements. Other wise you will continue to appear vacuous. Many people on this blog, which I read more than contribute to, seem to put far more effort and thought into their contributions than you, it's paid author, do.
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Chancy has it about right, as usual...
Salaam, etc.
ed
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allmymarbles wrote:
"Prospective first ladies should have no major voice in the campaign. We are not voting for Michelle Obama or Cindy McCain, but for their husbands, and our votes for them should not be influenced by how we feel about their wives."
Why not? Do you believe that Obama's policies will not be influenced by his wife? I suspect that Mrs Obama will be more influencial than the VP.
I doubt that Mrs McCain will have much influence in her husband's policies, however.
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By the way - great comments - Ulysses 9. What I was trying to say but much better put.
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Justin, did your colleague Jim Naughtie shed a few tears during the Ted Kennedy speech? He sounded quite emotional when he reported on it during the Today programme's gushing Obamafest this morning. He does love his Democrat politicians, old Naughtie.
ITN news did an item about the Michelle Obama speech which was then followed by a report on John McCain's campaign and the endorsement he received from a Puerto Rican reggaeton star. There were no such concerns about balance on the Today programme.
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Ulysses_9 ? well said sir, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
First, on media matters, I agree your BBC comments and add that the content and tone of a piece last Thursday by the BBC?s man in Washington.......... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7573567.stm .........came in well below its usual high quality bar. I was watching the CNN coverage earlier here in SW Asia ?. v slick and techie, but the Blitzer / Cooper team and advisors seemingly rather ?flat? and unable to come to terms with Day 1 not having some major issue; faux pas or an angle allowing them to trigger some fresh global media frenzy. Also, the personal jibes and smears above, pitched by individuals against decent enough people, are the stuff of shame and more.
But is the USA Inc political spotlight actually focused correctly? For example, the mega clamour to ?get to know? the families and policies of both Sen Obama and Sen McCain?.. is a new president actually the critical issue for America - the golden key and panacea that is going to miraculously mitigate so much of what is clearly seriously de-railed in US culture?
The cancer runs deep. In my view two clear strands that have shaped and regrettably steered American society into its current mire are the US Political and Corporate dimensions. The nation has a tough nut to crack in getting to grips with the successful overhauling of Washington power politics; endemic corruption and avarice in industry (check out KBR in Iraq for starters) and the more than spurious links binding the two.
This is the challenge. Can any single human being, no matter how capable, realistically right the ship without 100% transparency and the full backing of an entire nation? Will the next President of the United States of America aspire to such a mandate and have the wherewithal to deliver?
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16, 41
In defence of Justin, I don't think he aims to be clueless, but rather to flush out the sentiment by suggesting something slightly contrariian to the prevailing view: this doesn't make him anti-Obama. I'm sure next week he'll appear to be anti that 'wrinkly old white guy' as Paris so tellingly put it. By commenting in this way, he has allowed those who wish to defend Michelle a voice without leaving them 'yeah, I agree' as a possible post.
Having said that, there are too many mindless posts on here that are way off topic and which, breaking the rules, ought to be removed. I do think the moderators (hint) need to take a much firmer line.
I'm only just sorting through the morning news ... it seems to me that Michelle did the job required, but that the press are scratchy because they want fireworks from the Clinton camp. Pelosi's speech was overlooked. A harmonious Kennedy-Obama love fest does not make for prime time commentary. The most interesting comment I saw was that there were not enough punches landed on Bush and McCain: the speakers need to learn to use comparison as a form of implicit criticism: the 'I was not brought up the son of admirals and sent private high schools, rather my mum saved up the foodstamps' approach.
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The problem with Obama is the great, gaping hole in the middle. 'Change' is not a very compelling idea unless we know what real changes are being planned. After all 'change' is not necessarily for the better..... Obama is starry but vapid: let's face it if he was a white guy spouting the same stuff he'd be nowhere. And on the debit side what we do know about Obama is not that flattering; he's been involved in dodgy property deals and he's a red-hot pro-abortionist to the extent that he voted to deny babies born alive after botched abortions medical treatment to save their lives. And this is the man who wants to be known as compassionate! To me he looks like another windy progressive without any real core beliefs.
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45 Duhbuh wrote:
Justin, did your colleague Jim Naughtie shed a few tears during the Ted Kennedy speech? He sounded quite emotional when he reported on it during the Today programme's gushing Obamafest this morning. He does love his Democrat politicians, old Naughtie.
ITN news did an item about the Michelle Obama speech which was then followed by a report on John McCain's campaign and the endorsement he received from a Puerto Rican reggaeton star. There were no such concerns about balance on the Today programme.
The balance will probably be when the BBC covers the republican convention in depth. Puerto Rican musicians are not even that big in the USA let alone worthy of mention on the BBC. Your posts seems to be on one topic and one topic alone, the bias you perceive in BBC coverage. Have you ever stop to consider that it is not biased for the BBC not to share your prejudices?
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Michelle sounded OK to me, but I am not really
one of her fans, so I find it hard to get excited
about her rhetoric.
Given Obama's sagging momentum, it will be
interesting to see how well the Democrats can
realize the opportunity to use this convention
as a media event to get their points of view across.
They have to realize that there is no time left
for reconciliation, and the election is not about
them, it's about the country.
There is a sense of urgency in the country that
the country needs to be put on a new course;
we will find out this week if the Democrats can
focus on that, and not on themselves.
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Mrs.Obama made a reasonable speech but didnt set the world on fire. I guess she did ok but there again she isnt the person looking to be the next president,fortunately for her. Mr.Obama is looking to get that job and he is a very good speaker,he has all the credentials for the top job. I wish him well and he is the best candidate but idealists died out with JFK generation and all the words of encouragement,vision and comfort cannot hide the divisions in the party and the country.He is black and that doesnt go down well with many americans who cannot adjust to such a change overnight.
Mr.Obama will become the target of every lunatic(and there are a lot of them)in the USA and beyond.Like JFK,his brother and Dr King, they all became targets when the status quo was challenged.Mr.Obama is living on borrowed time whether he becomes president or not.
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Unsurprisingly a candidate's wife believes (or at least says she believes) her husband is the right man for the job.
I'm more conscious of the striking lack of coverage of the other candidate ... er, er, what's his name? ... McCain.
Don't know what you guys are getting over in the states, but on the BBC here it like an Obama apreciation society - 10 items on Obama for everyone one (if any) on McCain.
I spoke to someone yesterday who thought Obama had beaten Clinton and was now president - she had never heard of McCain
(Personally I dont have a preference - just like to see some even coverage)
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Even coverage? From the BBC? Don't be silly, the Brown Broadcasting Corporation puts out what its Labour masters tell it to. In return, they get to keep the license fee.
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Michelle Obama came across as an articulate, intelligent, loving woman, a great example for the youth of today. She is in a difficult position as a non politician and she has handled herself extremely well. I would rather my children follow her example than that of Cindy 'stepford' Mc Cain, or hillary 'testosterone' clinton.
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45. At 10:13am on 26 Aug 2008, duhbuh wrote:
Justin, did your colleague Jim Naughtie shed a few tears during the Ted Kennedy speech? He sounded quite emotional when he reported on it during the Today programme's gushing Obamafest this morning. He does love his Democrat politicians, old Naughtie.
ITN news did an item about the Michelle Obama speech which was then followed by a report on John McCain's campaign and the endorsement he received from a Puerto Rican reggaeton star. There were no such concerns about balance on the Today programme."
Balance? Mrs McCain was not addressing the Democratic convention was she?
And did the BBC faithfully and gushingly report the number of Porto Rican reggae stars who have supported Obama?
And what about 50's crooners, why are their politics being ignored?
Not to mention Hip-Hop stars and mime artists.
We need to be told!
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I'm getting real tired of people accusing us of being racist. yes, it exists everywhere to some extent - but not in the way portrayed too often.
I will not be voting for obahma.
I am not a racist.
Call me crazy, but I want the guy leading my country to do more than shout "change" and "yes we can". Yes, he has a nice positive attitude, and he's an excellent speaker - but its not enough. You gotta have a plan, and so far, all we've heard is vague pie-in-the-sky hope-and-change stuff. Not that the media's love-in with the "anointed one" isn't a refreshing departure from horribly negative attacks from the past, I just can't buy into putting my vote behind someone who's all style and no substance. This is not a decision I have come to lightly, and NO - RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!
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52 Jon112UK wrote:
Unsurprisingly a candidate's wife believes (or at least says she believes) her husband is the right man for the job.
I'm more conscious of the striking lack of coverage of the other candidate ... er, er, what's his name? ... McCain.
Don't know what you guys are getting over in the states, but on the BBC here it like an Obama apreciation society - 10 items on Obama for everyone one (if any) on McCain.
I spoke to someone yesterday who thought Obama had beaten Clinton and was now president - she had never heard of McCain
(Personally I dont have a preference - just like to see some even coverage)
There has been plenty of coverage of McCain, but this week is the Dems convention, they will get nearly all of the coverage here and in the USA.
The other part of this is that Obama is a much more interesting candidate that McCain because of his age, background and views. He has resonated with people in the USA and around the world in a way that McCain could never do, so will inevitably get more coverage.
Interestingly I was looking through some crazy endtimes blogs at the weekend.Some of these loons think that Obama actually is the Anti-Christ, some may vote for him to hasten the Rapture. Which would really mess up the republicans, oh and make me laugh like a drain.
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A witty woman is a treasure;
A witty beauty is a power.
George Meredith,
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When are you going to join Fox News Mr Webb?
The statement "it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism" is merely repeating myths promulgated by the aforemention Fox News.
What if I believe that John McCain is not patriotic? I don't have any evidence that he is of course but will he be able to prove otherwise?
Mr Webb should refrain from asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" questions until he finally gets his job with Fox. He can then ask them to his heart's content and be richly rewarded for it.
Until then I expect better from the BBC and urge them to replace this inept reporter and blogger.
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I believe Michelle did very well in her speech. She showed herself to be intelligent and articulate. More importantly, she showed herself (and of course her husband) as people who arrived at their current status by a dint of hardwork and belief in the American dream. I saw sincerity in her entire presentation. Her previous statement about "being proud of her country for the first time" was taken out of context. Sometimes I wonder why politics has been turned into distorting the statements and positions of opponents. This goes to underline the thinking that politics is a dirty game - an exercise in sheer demonization and "win at all cost". It is an anti-intellectual endeavour, filling people with half truths, outright falsehood and making every attempt to prevent them from thinking and seeing things for themselves. If politicians can only concede more intelligence to their opponents and the public. We are not all dumb. Coming back to the speech of Michelle, she did extremely well. It is painful she had to reassure the audience of her patriotism. Even after doing so, some are still "doubting her sincerity". I guess people are feeding on the "fear-mongering" and "mud-slinging" political ideology that has become the trade make of the extreme right wing.
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Is Michelle Obama finally proud that she's an American? Funny I'm not proud she's an American. She seemed to think the world owed her something. How much more privilege would she have needed before she'd have been satisfied with her lot in life? I'm hoping after all these decades, we'll see the last of the Kennedys in public life soon. Hopefully the rest of the current crop will disappear, fade into history like the morning mist burning off in the sun. Clintons, Bushes, all of them. How fortunate for Americans that America runs mostly on autopilot, largely independently of the government. Far too much has been made of the power of the President and the government to control the direction of US civilization. That's the whole point, they ride the back of the tiger at their own peril, barely able to steer it one way or the other slightly once in awhile. Government has far less power over the economy and culture than most people think. And when it does, changes it tries to make can take years, even decades.
Revisit BBC's flawed series "America, Age of Empire" and you will learn that American policy is made according to a very complex interplay of forces, not by one man or group, and not by some sudden burst of initiative. And certainly rarely for very long without the acquiesence of the society as a whole. That is why blaming anything you don't like about America such as rejection of Kyoto on President Bush is so absurd. In the end, whether it's Obama or McCain, they will largely do what they are told to by countless advisors both inside and outside the Whitehouse and they will act by responding to American interests alone. Gore would surely also have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq with about the same results. We don't really know what Obama would have done but based on what he said about Pakistan, he'd probably have done the same. The pressure on him from the intelligence community, the military, and public opinion would have been unresistable.
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A former Speaker of the House once said, "American politics is essentially the same as high school politics. The Democratic Convention like the Republican Convention is all about "Marketing" and getting the respective "platform" sold. The problem with Michele Obama's speech last night stems from the systemic problem that she is not what ought to be "Marketed" (nor her children) and her personal life with her husband ought not to be the "platform." Her story was the "highschool" show and tell and it was tragically "cute." However the American way of life is in need of something more than "cute" and is in dire need of a "platform" than addresses the needs of the country. In other words I thought Michelle Obama's speech wasted my precious time with my own family.
SteadySailor
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I found the 'look at us, we're the Waltons' presentation of the Obama family rather took away from what was a decent speech from Michelle Obama, and undid the good it had done. However, as I'm not an American voter, I don't think she'll be losing any sleep over that particular criticism!
Someone else mentioned, and I have only just realised that they're right, a distinct lack of McCain on the BBC coverage of the US election trail. Why is that?
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The conventions are almost as tightly controlled and organised as a visit to the Queen. Nothing is left to chance. Even if it all goes perfectly it will make minimal difference (if any) to the candidate's standing. If something had gone wrong then it may have helped the opposition a lot of course. What seems to be an OK speech from US viewpoints will not sway anyone either way. Obama's wife is not going to fill that currently perceived empty suit; Only he can do that.
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Even though I have a great deal of affection for America, I find the way in which emotion is whipped up at these political conventions deeply disturbing. Perhaps someone ought to remind the American people they are not electing a good husband or father, but the leader of the Western World who must be capable of taking unpopular decisions when necessary and of being strong in a crisis.
On the international front, Obama may initally at least give America's standing a boost but I'm afraid he will eventually turn out to be a combination of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. He appears to have the shallow sharm of Blair but, if Irwin Stelzer writing in the Sunday Times is correct, his policies are akin to those of Brown. If he is elected and that proves to be the case then heaven help all of us.
DWNottingham
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Different world over there, isn't it?
The US people are very welcome to their gush, and that might be the very reason GW Bush was allowed in, too much personal slobber, resulting in a somewhat unknown quantity, a loose cannonball wreaking havoc with International relations, and more importantly for the US people, with the US economy...
Could anyone here imagine Lady Thatcher's husband Dennis, for example, all those years ago, getting up and gushing about her personal warmth, or any one else's spouse for that matter? Hilarious to us Brits, and completely useless when it comes to getting answers to the issues that affect us: our jobs, our bills, our pockets, our safety...
Do the US people really care for this gush, and not policies, or real, and intelligent debate?
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Jon,
About right in proportion to newsworthiness, I reckon.Cowgirl, Indeed, but you misspelled Sindy ;-)
Having now had time to watch both Michelle and Uncle Ted, I can say I enjoyed both speeches - both typical (but good) convention fare - I also saw Carville being stupid (as usual). The cutaway shots of Biden were good - wide grins or serious as appropriate.
I look forward to November, and even more to January
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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Justin,
You really need to get over this snide way of covering Obama. I expect when the GOP Convention happens, you will say McCain was great.
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Gooner,
I reckon it's evidence of the BBC's ability to judge newsworthiness. What about McCain is of any real interest? He can't even hire graphic designers to give him a logo significantly different from that of a well-known maker of potato products, right down to the star! It's also amusing (barely) that the human McCain shares none of the properties advertised for the potato product:0 grams trans fat
No Cholesterol
Low in saturated fat
;-)
ed
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Yes, she connected.
I think the whole spiel about how the couple met and how they lived their lives before the becoming this 'rock star' couple helped to calm the 'elitism' smears.
Overall I was impressed. And I didn't expect to be. In fact when I heard she would open the event I was a little worried.
MKJones
England for Obama
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Michelle Obama did an outstanding job last night although, in my opinion, the ones that stole the show were the two little girls.
Michelle demonstrated much more than excellent oratorical skills, she did an excellent job in establishing a contrast between the background and struggles that both her and Obama endured until recently and the privileged life of their political opponent...without saying a derogatory word about McCain.
Jesse Jackson Jr was also very impressive, but the one that captured my attention because of the depth of his message was Republican Leach whose grasp and bipartisan description of American political history made watching the first day of the convention a pleasure. Overall, it was a very good day for the Democrats.
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ref #49
I really have a problem with Ted Kennedey passing the Camelot legacy to Obama.
It wasn't his to give.
John Kennedey would be ashamed of his little brother liberal policies and his partsianship over the years.
JFK would not be welcome in today's Democrat party.
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This speach was crucial in this way: Mrs Obama was there to demonstrate there are not skeletons in the Obama closet; (whether there are or not I do not know).
This was done in the way that Mrs Edwards, for example, could not do.
It really didnt matter 'what' Michelle said!!
It doesnt even have anything to do with the issues - Obama will address those in the stadium. Then, percieved lack of patriotism, oddness and effeteness will either stand or fall.
Finally, it opens the door for the Obama 2012 campaign - by which I mean Michelle Obama, of course, as Biden will be to old, and BhO might not stand for other reasons.
Giving the Democrats the choice of HRC or MO in a head to head.
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Justin, in the interest of fair play, shouldn't you open a thread on the Republican VP selection process? As far as I am concerned that would be as fascinating a topic as talking about Michelle Obama whose role in government, if her husband is elected, will be nothing more than symbolic.
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Michelle Obama did great. Very heartfelt and warm. Bill Clinton on a five second delay is wise. The Janet Jackson superbowl strategy to avoid warbling malfunctions.
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So Mrs Obama thinks that Mr Obama would make a great President.
Not newsworthy in my book.
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Highly original design? A possible derivation, and another possibility
Far more interesting than the Political product, and more newsworthy, less boring, and probably with fewer additives
And tastier than buffalo chips...
;-)
ed
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68, miamitree
Go back and have a look at my post #47. I think most people underestimate how quietly determined and how organised Obama is, but he does need to show a glint of the steel that he possesses: it was no two-bit charlatan that put the Clinton machine away. He simply out-thought and out-organised them, and that is what he is doing to McCain.
I find it curious, given the love of US humanities scholars for Milton, the sermons of Donne, and the advice of Machiavelli, that this is not laced more through the speeches, with a little bit of outlaw Dylan, and a trenchant use of irony. I said several weeks ago on here, that the way to put down McCain is to treat him as the greatest man of the last age worthy of a long and peaceful retirement. Some of you, like Ed, agreed. A little bit of the Mark Anthony approach in Julius Caesar would not do any harm either ... 'McCain left his wife, when she was disfigured by a car accident, for a young heiress, but John McCain is an honourable man ...': he needs to be painted as distant, remote, and ruthless, of another century than this one.
If there is one recent comment that worried me, it was a journalist having a gripe about how long it had been since Obama gave a press conference; and how chummy McCain was with the press. This was, of course, George Bush's trick: he charmed the press in 2000 while Gore got on with the job, and the press turned against Gore as being wooden as a result: there but for a few hanging chads ... (an no MAII: I don't believe Gore would have gone into Iraq in the same way; Afghanistan, probably yes; Iraq, almost certainly not, at least not in that way: keeping the pressure on was far cheaper than an all-out war).
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I'm sorry but I must be getting old. This sort of speech is total garbage. I could just about understand it if America, and Britain, were not killing thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That if America and Britain were not paying for and training mercenaries around the world to fight on our behalf.
If America was not so split between its rich and poor. That a country that has ruined the world economy, with a little bit of help from the greedy bankers, which will lead to a repeat of the 1930s depression, shows no regrets.
I am not forgetting Russia in all this, how it is being allowed to do its worst in Georgia. All these countries are as bad as each other. The rule of law and justice is being ripped up and nothing is being done.
This is all so terribly sad, what have we done? Moronic, jingoistic, flag wavers on the streets of London, follow the flag, follow it to your doom, how does it go in America, oh yes the Dollar Bill says it all 'In God We Trust' this is pathetic. What on earth are the Americans being offered, hope in the future, well was it Blake who advised 'abandon hope all ye who enter here' abandon hope indeed.
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"perceived lack of patriotism and oddness" - could you explain?
Oddness? How? They say Gore was a bit wooden but can't see the oddness you seem to see.
As for lack of substance that some speak of - which candidate is going into micro- / macroeconomics on the campaign trail? When Ron Paul speaks to McCain about economic policy, McCain spun off a list of names of those who he would ask advice of. Haven't heard HIS substance bit yet. Where's the substance with Bush? McCain?
Where was the substance with Blair?
Is it that Obama can't be as good as - he has to be better than the next guy?
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72. At 12:38pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #49
.
"JFK would not be welcome in today's Democrat party."
Since he has been dead for over fourty years, that is, perhaps, not a complete surprise.
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"Did she connect with you?
Justin Webb 26 Aug 08, 06:12 AM GMT I thought Michelle Obama's speech was effective but not a knock-out; it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word) - it merely begins the fight back against them."
But is not the point that it is amazing she had to speak at all. Why, to what pupose?
Why does a condidate's family matter at all? Didn't Lincoln find his marriage a trial, as did Roosevelt, did that make them ineffective presidents?
One of the more odious US influences on the UK political system was the way in which TB's family came into the spotlight and was used by both sides for political ends
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79, TAG
It wasn't Blake, it was Milton, and that is part of my point. When Obama talks about hope people mock him as unrealistic, but Milton's definition of hell was, succinctly, the absence of hope ... 'and hope never comes, that comes to all'. The phrase you mentioned was placed above the Gates of Pandemonium. Obama should make that point: 'I am sometimes criticised for talking about hope, but those who want to live without hope, want to live in a living hell ...', it is that kind of rhetoric he needs to blend into his speeches.
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Oxford Mark,
Brilliant!Have you heard Lord Buckley's take on Mark Anthony? Sadly, I can't find it anywhere on giggle ;-(
Slainte!
ed
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Ref 66
"Hilarious to us Brits, and completely useless when it comes to getting answers to the issues that affect us: our jobs, our bills, our pockets, our safety..."
Interesting comment coming from a Briton. As opposed to countries where pomp and ceremony is of the utmost importance, in the USA the behavior and qualifications of a spouse are viewed as a reflection of the character of the candidate rather than a determinant factor in our selection process. George W. Bush's election and re-election notwithstanding, many of us are focused on the policies of each candidate and their readiness to assume the responsibilities of the Presidency, rather than superficial factors irrelevant to our future. I doubt many voters will be swayed one way or the other by Michelle's performance or Ted Kennedy's emotional appeal.
Hopefully, the events of the last few years will help voters understand that personal charisma and cute soundbites do not represent readiness to lead, although I would not rule out the pervasive effectiveness of political advertisement and other campaign tactics on the psyche of the nation and our decision making process.
Michelle's role was to reassure voters and portray the humble background and successes of Obama. She did a splendid job.
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I'd connect with her alright. And twice on a Saturday.
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#12
Jack,
It ain't over, you have to wait until Obama himself speaks. You seem to suffer from premature articulation.
#16 Ulysses
Neither
#66 Marcus,
Are you confusing the self made family with the son of an Admiral who ditched his first wife to marry a blonde heiress? The Obama's are hardly from a privileged background. BTW the word is irresistable, not unresistable
Justin,
She was articulate, intelligent, caring, patriotic and a good mom. Plus (and I'm gonna get flamed for this) she looks hot in a cocktail dress. Plus she seems to be a real woman who takes care of herself, not someone who has had a lot of work done.
Yes she connected in terms of her desire to make the world a better place for her kids, something we should all believe in.
#15 Scott,
I can only say 'Dough - nuts'
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Ref 72
"JFK would not be welcome in today's Democrat party."
I doubt Abraham Lincoln would have been welcome in today's Republican party.
Considering the time span and the magnitude of the philosophical changes of both parties since they were created comparisons like this are irrelevant.
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In comment 37 'thewelshboycott' says:
"They will all say in public they're gonna vote for the young black guy. But when they get in that booth and that pen hovers, they'll mark their X for the old white guy."
This is a rather dangerous path to go down - arguing or implying that the only reason Obama might not get elected is skin colour.
There is, I'm sure, a section of the US population who *will not* vote for Obama, regardless of his policies, because of his skin colour.
There is also, I'm sure, a section of the US population who *will* vote for Obama, regardless of his policies, because of his skin colour.
Both approaches are ignorant, let's hope that the voters in these two groups cancel each other out and that the election is decided by those more interested in policies.
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#86
Ooo err missus
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Snark snark
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Phoaaaaarrrrr!
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Correction:
#66 Marcus should be #61 Marcus.
Apologies
Sam
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I thought she was fake, why do Americans love to involve family matters into politics? does a good husband or good father automatically make a good president? i am pro Obama, but he better work with papers and numbers, and he must take advantage of the negative Bush record on everything by using those 2 elements.
It is also funny how Americans talk about family values when most of their families are apart and divorced! it makes us, people from other countries, feel like we are missing something, as if we don't have it... well my parents have been married 35 years, without speeches to prove it...
Another speech like that and Obama will probably lose the election, the presidency is a job to be done well, fatherhood and husband"hood" is something else
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#83
Many thanks mark from Oxford. I really should get my quotes right. Apologies to all.
However, whether it was Blake or Milton I think that we are now at the gates of hell. I know that i am a natural pessimist but I am afraid for the future. I see the dogs of war on the loose, the four horsemen riding, I feel that Armagheddon is around the corner.
I consider that we are almost repeating the days before the great war, powerful countries being humiliated by so-called lesser countries, or even worse, people with a cause.
I fear for the future when we have jingoistic crowds on the Mall, when a failed unelected PM tells about Britishness, how the Olympics have been manipulated to our own ends. I can't believe how the media have responded to the China problem, human rights, Dafur, in the future people will look back at these games in the same way as the Berlin games, with total dishonour.
Now we learn that North Korea has stopped demolishing the nuclear weapons facilities and that Russia is to approve independence for the Georgian states.
We are approaching the end game! Whoever is elected in America the game is up.
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#3 Timothy444
Thanks, I thought this was an open forum, no wonder Nobama has center statge. Did you see that pitiful video on the 'this is hilarious' page about Nobama humor "LOL", CNN doing a no comedy abouit Nobama spot! So unfunny (is that a word).
#7 Allmymarbles
"Spot On", if a Texan can say that with meaning.
#61 MA2
Your first paragraph is brilliant if I may say so. In my position, it isn't auto pilot, it's the many pieces that make the whole, and in general, Americans are involved from the PTA (Parent Teacher Association to State Governments). Our Dallas town meeting and City Council meeting are packed.
After the Pelosi opening early in the day. and me laughing so hard my wife turned off the Television. I only got to the clips (highlights) of last night. Apparently, I missed very little.
I have to wonder, Jay Dubya, we've had weeks of Nobamamania on this site, and Justin Webbs America is obviously Pro Nobama, don't mind, but are we even to hear anything about the McCain Veep?
And on the BBC, at first they were steadfast in fair coverage, then with 'Nobamas trip' to Europe and the obvious snub ya'll got, it's like a school girl crush/man love for the guy.
To the BBC he's the "Tony Blair" of the USA.
Michele Mybell Nobama, no-one mentioned the makeover of her character. Dang, remember her first ten or so appearances in the campaign, thought she'd lost control on more than one occasion. Then, for a month she was M.I.A., I guess being re-educated on presentation, poise and class, toned down if you will. I like the new one better.
chappaquiddick, a slam dunk
peace parroled
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#94
Most American families are not 'broken', although divorce rates are high compared to some other places. Family is very important to us, and is a basic test of commitment to see that a candidate has their poop in a group.
I do agree though, it is deeply ironic that the right wing evangelicals and politicians who want to 'defend' marriage against gays (I've never really felt mine threatened by the two guys next door) are so fond of it that they do it many times over.
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Justin, try not to stick to your your machismo. It was a knock-out speech.
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ref #88
I disagree Lincoln was for equality not entitlement. That is what the Republicans are about.
But my original point was that Ted Kennedy, Joe and Caroline do not represent the JFK legacy.
JFK was politicaly closer to Scoop Jackson and Joe Lieberman type of Democrat. Which is not welcome in today's Democratic party.
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McCain vs Biden: Not All "Foreign Policy Experience" Is Created Equal
So which sort of "expertise" and "experience" would we prefer?Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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I don't understand why Justin Webb said what he did about Mrs Obama's speech not 'settling' any specious notion that she is not patriotic, or is odd or effete. She is an intelligent urban professional woman, and articulate with it. Does that make her odd or effete, for goodness' sake? She has been portrayed by the opposition as some sort of monster, and now that she has had a chance to show us that this isn't true, what on earth more does Mr Webb want? I sense a partisan position on this -- not the objective, fresh viewpoint one should expect from a BBC reporter.
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Re:#87 Hot in a cocktail dress. She fits in three 90 minute workouts a week despite her busy schedule. Another thing to admire about her.
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Sam,
Particularly true for the sub-groups who feature highly in so many fields of human endeavour - Scots, Jews, some Asians, etc., along with a high regard for education, thrift, justice, and (dare I say?) "appearances". In short, traditional "family values".A very useful and informing discussion of some of the factors in our modern culture which have contributed to the decline in such values outside these 'remnant' subgroups can be found here.Thus speaks one of the clearest-sighted of Americans...(Sam is another)
Disarmed ed
(I forgot to renew my permits, and soon found two polite (but bullet-proofed) constables at my door...)
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99. At 2:42pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #88
I disagree Lincoln was for equality not entitlement. That is what the Republicans are about."
Entitlement to equality? Or does equality just happen naturally?
If so, lots of soldiers died in the US civil war for nothing.
"But my original point was that Ted Kennedy, Joe and Caroline do not represent the JFK legacy. "
Which would depend on how one defies that legacy
J"FK was politicaly closer to Scoop Jackson and Joe Lieberman type of Democrat. Which is not welcome in today's Democratic party."
Which is a relief to everyone. JFK certainly beleived in equality and he would not have held that someone was an inferior human being simply because he happeened to be Palestinian.
Unlike these two extremists,.
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ref #74
I suggested more equable about a month ago. I hope we see it.
I did not see Michelle Obama's speech, primarily because it was going to be a snooze. She is smart enough not to go the Theresa Heinz route and if she wasn't Obama is.
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Last night was a great "Motherhood and Apple Pie" endorsement of Barack Obama. Michele, Half Sister, and Jackson all made Barack out to be a hardworking, helpful, likeable guy. While a nice show (remake of the Andy Griffith Show?), this has little to do with his agenda, issues, or proposed policy changes. We have a campaign going on - he's politicing. We will see the same from McCain soon enough.
Those of us how support him liked the "warmth". Those of us who don't support him thought it was distracting filler.
And give Justin Webb and the BBC a break - McCain is boring while Obama makes for better tabloid fodder for their target audience.
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#100
One reason that there is little mention of McCain is that there is so little to mention.
A reactive, non-thinking, military being,
interrupted by uncontrolled spurts of personal opportunism.
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"The Dems need to start selling their product very soon. No one knows what the content is, and the brand name is rapidly wearing thin." --Timothy444
The problem is that the Democrats don't know what product they are selling any more. The Clintons were the last of the true Dem's focused on what the Party used to stand for. But since the 1970's, the DNP has lost sight of what they really want for the US; the members do not support each other and often work against each other for their own personal gain, which just undermines any possible power they could have in DC. Meanwhile, the Republicans have this great solidarity-- no matter what gets thrown their way, they stand together.
Michelle Obama's speech was quaint, but not strong, and I never care what the spouses have to say about their campaigning partners --the spouses are there for show and moral support, most of them don't have political savvy and look like blow-up dolls next to the candidates.
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#102
Yeah baby, yeah
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#66 asks if Americans really care for this gush.
I don't.
Most people I know made up their minds a long time ago, and for the very first time in my life my friends are equally split between Republicans and Democrats. I have some Republican friends who will vote for Obama. I have some friends who are Democrats who will vote for McCain, but I've noticed that the passion is gone from their arguments.
The fact is, the two party system is a crock. Few of us feel good about either party, at least not here in Chico, but there is something else happening that is very interesting.
Here in North State California, the biggest voting block is made up of rich Hispanic rice farmers and their families, Green Party activists and their supporters, the Evangelical Christian community and your average middle of the road Republicrat.
What is driving this budding coalition is the erosion of civil rights, the outrageous arrogance of the current government and the idea that God does not want us to destroy the planet.
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#109.
I say Sam; Steady on.
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Conventions nowadays are just media events. The campaign will not be won or lost on the quality of the speechmaking or on the touching family scenes.
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#69 - Oooh, Ed - that's harsh! ;-)
#78 - I agree - I have always found the 'Antony' approach to putting someone down both efficient and entertaining when done properly.
#85 - pomp and circumstance are not of the utmost importance in the UK. We have it, we enjoy it, but very little of it is evident in our politics, apart from the state opening of Parliament.
Mr Obama seems a charming chap, but, a bit like our David Cameron, a tad light on policy. That must worry his prospective voters?
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JackLibertarian (#12), you always have your namesake party as an alternative. In the 2000 election, the Libertarian Party received about one-third of 1% of the popular vote.
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I'm getting very irritated by the media's, and your, continued unfounded criticism of the Obama campaign. I am always hearing all the bad things that the Obama campaign has done, yet I never hear a bad word against the McCain campaign. This has got to stop.
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Ulysses_9 (#16), you wrote:
"Is this journalism, ..."
I would say it is not. It is a diversion from journalism, which can be so dreary. I liken it to what journalists might do after a hard day at the office, when they congregate at a designated watering hole, except that modern technology allows for a larger circle of participants.
I suspect that Justin has an actual job, and that this is what he does when he's had enough of it. For all I know, he may actually be at the alehouse with his laptop computer and wi-fi connection, knocking back a Fuller's, when he's writing this stuff.
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Young man
PS. Justin what's a suburban - assume some sort of hybrid 4x4/tank?
yes
as advertised by the secret service, also the perfect vehicle to take the kids to school it.
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#115 - we'd criticise his campaign here, if we were actually seeing any of it! ;-)
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robzaba (#66), one difference in the two worlds is that in the US, the President is the head of state as well as the head of government. Granted, Prince Philip doesn't say much, but he does appear with the Queen on state occasions, does he not?
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more importantly 115 has said something I have had issues with for a long time now.
Barack gets questioned and answers but people who refuse to listen are sitting with hands over their ears saying "I CANT HEAR YOU" .
the answer is "WELL LISTEN THEN"
This includes the press and the fact that they do very partial analysis of whats being said .(believing Obama promised to pull out the troops after 16 months).
To those commentators from the UK." listen I shall say this only once"
Obama has laid out a hell of a lot but the press does not go into it, they react to REV wright et all.
Much of his policy has to do with diplomacy and taking reality into account.
Knowing that "going Green" but seriously will provide huge economic advantage.
there is a lot but most are too concerned with slagging off his wife or his pastor or his kids (lol nice link Justin).
The press should have reported the truth every time Big chips said his rubbish.
Sorry Big chip but drilling leases given out today WILL NOT EFFECT THE PRICE OF GAS.
etc.
but they don't they often attack (sideswipe) obama with "well obama wants to deprive you all with the ability to drive" Type reports.
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spud head
what you do not see is the policy being defined but then they won't show that on Fox.
Where is all this clear policy from Big Chips campaign.
there is none , but because he and his idiots shout louder about obama being empty etc(Most of which comes from out and out racists), some fools out there think as you do that Obama is empty.
But then you probably don't call a shovel a shovel.
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ref #104
Why bring up the Palestinians? But JFK like Liberman and Jackson would be supporting Israel.
Not the terrorists.
And you can P.C all you want, if Obama ever did a moral equivilency with Israel and the Palestinians he would be finished.
I am a big Obama critic but even I don't equate him with the hate America crowd of Code Pik, the Daily Kos, Acorn that are currently attacking Journalist outside the Democratic convention
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What Chicago was Obama talking about???
Seriously, I'm a lifelong resident here and it's not just me. Here is what two newspapers in Illinois and on in St. Louis had to state about Obama's claims last night:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/politics/story/78EF4CD2B66A1936862574B00012F963?OpenDocument
?DENVER ? Barack Obama will be re-introduced to America today by some of the Illinois politicos who know him best: his old seat mate in the state Senate; his one-time primary opponent for the U.S. Senate; the young protégé he helped get elected state treasurer.
Notably absent on the opening day of the Democratic National Convention, though, will be the state's ranking Democrat, Gov. Rod Blagojevich, with whom Obama shares a connection he presumably would rather not remind people about: Chicago Democratic fundraiser and recently convicted felon Antoin "Tony" Rezko.?
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=229757
?One has to wonder today what Springfield Obama was talking about.
Given complete control of state government, Illinois Democrats have produced unbalanced budgets, callous funding cuts, and antagonistic gridlock.
Yet the Democratic leader Obama describes as his political mentor believed state lawmakers deserved a pay raise for their work.
And the Democratic governor whose administration is under criminal investigation is quick to remind anyone listening of Obama's ties to those in trouble.
Plus, the Democrat who Obama backed for Cook County Board president produced the nation's highest sales tax.
The Chicago Democrat's presidential campaign offered this comment when asked whether it was concerned about the Illinois dysfunction becoming a political problem.
"Voters know that in Illinois and in Washington, Barack Obama stood up to members of both parties to pass sweeping ethics reforms that reduced the influence of money and special interests over the legislative process," said Illinois spokesman Justin DeJong.
Still, while the Illinois delegation will be front-and-center when Obama takes the stage later this week, don't look for him to tout any great accomplishments from back home. The ethics legislation he championed has been deemed insufficient. The new, tougher version lawmakers sent to the governor has - in a truly Illinois move - become a bargaining chip in a battle over billions worth of government spending.
Obama's campaign promises to bring national health care. But Illinois' venture into expanded health care has produced turmoil at every turn. Obama's idea of taxing employers who don't provide benefits to pay for health care is one that was rejected here.?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-illinois-democrats_tueaug26,0,3273887.story
Justin:
Seriously when will you chaps in the news industry get off your haunches and actually inform the your audience about how politics are in Chicago? The Dems are making all these ridiculous claims using glowing platitudes and you chaps just lap it up like big lazy dogs.
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ref#107
A hero who suffered far greater torture than Nelson Mandela.
And a far better human being as well
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Ref 113
Mr Obama seems a charming chap, but, a bit like our David Cameron, a tad light on policy. That must worry his prospective voters?
Actually, Obama has an excellent platform on both domestic and foreign policy. His problem, unfortunately, is that he has not been able to convey it to the electorate.
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32. polistes
thank you.
well put
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Chancy:
"To explain the British attitude, the country feels bruised and resentful because it was led into a "dumb war" (very much against the public wish) by W and his gruesome gang. And now both countries are in real financial trouble on the back of the sub-prime fiasco and by high oil prices which many attribute to the US/UK keeping the Middle East in a febrile state of tension."
First - I am confused as to whether you are a Brit or an American explaining (interpreting for?) the Brits. It would be nice to know where the posters are coming from.
As far as Britain being "led": Are you kidding? I quite agree that we should not have gone to war there, but for the British to blame Americans seems to take anti-Americanism beyond the point of rationality.
Each nation is responsible for its own decisions. I find it hard to believe that the people of Britain, one of the world's great and ancient nations, have become so passive that they are blaming the people of another nation for their own foreign policy.
Let them blame Blair. And themselves.
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majik JFK would have had your sort of hate mongerer in jail by now as well.
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124. At 4:31pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref#107
A hero who suffered far greater torture than Nelson Mandela.
And a far better human being as well"
Well he must be to you, for is he is not the "right" colour?
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?If you Don?t Know me by Now??
I must confess to being interested in hearing what potential American First Lady Michelle Obama had to say last night, during a National Democratic Convention speech that was broadly termed to be her: ?introduction of self and husband to the American people.? Then my common sense got the better of my curiosity, and I decided to do a spot of reading instead.
Why? Well, for some reason another famous speech, by another famous ?National Outsider? kept resurfacing in my memory. I am talking about the speech given by the hated Jew Shylock, in William Shakespeare?s Merchant of Venice. A cry made similarly from the heart of his racially, and therefore nationally discounted self, as addressed (or so he hoped!) to the hearts of a seemingly heartless fellow- Venetian citizenry. A nationhood who were pleased and long-accustomed to viewing the Jewish merchant as a mere commercial vessel; one which - when its valuable services were no longer required by them, could be both regarded and discarded as human waste material.
And so Michelle Obama, to all intents and purposes, earnestly but essentially set about last night, to present herself and husband as ?just as Human as the rest of you Americans.?
And so - like Shakespeare?s Shylock, my pride as a sister black woman was ?pricked? to the core at the very thought of her attempting the undertaking. I consequently refused to allow my heart to ?bleed? by actually viewing the appallingly monstrous sight of a naturally intelligent, well educated woman like Michelle Obama, standing there before a determinedly doubtful racist bunch of her ?fellow Americans,? passionately pouring out her own heart albeit to the self-mocking beat of a knowing Bard?s sardonic theme: ?Look! Me and Mine are Just the Same American Human Beings as You and Yours!?
A theme as futile in today?s determinedly racist America, as it was in that fictionalized period cited by its author. A seer whose still-brilliant reflections upon universal humanity remain as insightfully relevant and unerringly illuminating now, as then. It becomes therefore more sad fact than laughable irony, that - as is the case with most of Shakespeare?s literary themes, we see such clear evidence of blindly-ignored racism shown to be alive in today?s Land of the Free, and well-established within that incomparable Home of The Brave.
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Talking about Obama and McCainBe Careful When You Make Comparisons
Phil Linehan
Obama complains of McCain about him spreading smears
comparing him to a young woman named Britney Spears
and to another named Paris notorious for just being known
and upon hearing whose name most people now groan.
Why the complaints, one may reasonably ask.
For what is McCain being taken to task?
For comparing Obama to a blond ignoramus,
even if she is mentioned among the famous.
When Barack decided to learn about what happens abroad
he was sure that his followers would loudly applaud.
He set off on his tour with the paparazzi, aka TV Anchors, in tow
and in whose fawning attention he could not help but glow.
He cannot, therefore, deny he popularity seeks
and expects audiences to be dazzled whenever he speaks.
Could it be that what make Obama so mad
is that McCain does not compare him to Angelina and Brad?
And talking about Angelina and Brad
Out of the mouths of babes?..
Phil Linehan
The news is out. Let us all rejoice!
Angelina and Brad have now made their choice.
The magazine has been chosen that will first release
pictures of the twins. Wonders will never cease!
Do not new-born babies appear more or less alike
with little difference between this and that tyke?
What did these babies do that induced People many millions to pay?
Emerge from the womb singing Oh! Happy Day?
Did their tiny feet break into a Riverdance
or did they announce for their reality show they had an advance?
Were they consulted about how much they are worth
or what they would charge for their first appearance on earth?
Will the magazine hope the twins will perform a loop-the-loop
as it tries its many millions to recoup?
Time-Warner expects circulation to hit dizzying new heights
and to recover its investment by re-selling rights.
Can one help but wonder why, with cash in such short supply,
so many are ready and willing other people?s baby pictures to buy.
This verse I am afraid must end on a serious note
as we reflect the magazine?s customers are entitled to vote.
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"122. At 4:30pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #104
Why bring up the Palestinians? But JFK like Liberman and Jackson would be supporting Israel."
No JFK would not distinguiish between human beings on account of their ethnic origin.
"And you can P.C all you want, if Obama ever did a moral equivilency with Israel and the Palestinians he would be finished."
Sinister phrase, what does "finished" mean?
Are you saying a Palestinian and an Israeli are not equivalent? How? Is it the blood type? Eye shape? I ask for information.
"I am a big Obama critic"
Hardly you have not said anything remotely critical. All you have done is express predictable distaste.
"but even I don't equate him with the hate America crowd of Code Pik, the Daily Kos, Acorn that are currently attacking Journalist outside the Democratic convention"
Attacking journalists at a politcal convention seems a good idea.
But what is the Daily Pik? A paper for apartheid apologists - surely you would approve?
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Comparisons with Shylock?
Oh, please - spare me. The Obamas are wealthy, priveleged members of the American elite. They are highly intelligent and work hard and have achieved success.
The idea of turning them into victims is too absurd. The Democrats are obsessed with the idea of permanent status, self-righteousness and an avalanche of self-pity. They need to get rid of it. It has become a self-parody.
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Dear Justin,
Is "perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness" an actual fact supported by the evidence of is it a subjective judgment fueled the the McCain campaign that you now echo?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Tim,
Believe me, they do! Not least for so disastrously misjudging the appropriate approach by a poodle to a Shrub! And, unless I mis-heard, Chancy is from/in Britain, as am I., and he is right that there was mass public disquiet at Blair's complicity (impossible to say whether a majority, but probably 50/50). More than a million turned out in the streets of London and Glasgow. The rest of Europe, as we all know, were wiser by far than Shrub & his poodle....and their lies and "sexed-up" so-called intelligence. Even I, with no access to anything but normal media, knew it was Bovine excreta.Womanvoice, I hear you!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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99, Magic.
You are quite right. Joe Lieberman, the weasel, is not welcome in today's Democratic Party.
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Tim,
Shylock was wealthier than the Obamas.
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102, Candace.
Why should we admire people because they work out? Should we admire people because they drink orange juice? I think I will save my admiration for traits related to character.
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I find it difficult to take anything Justin Webb writes seriously. Although in a different role, he follows Alistair Cooke in his astonishingly uncritical approach to the US.
For instance, he writes in the preamble to his blog that the US is the most "open" country in the world. If you look at the latest index of press freedom from Reporters without Borders, the respected international NGO, the US comes 48th, below all the EU countries.
Given the above, his critical tone concerning Michelle Obama may be because she has been critical of his beloved US.
When, oh when will the BBC appoint an objective chief of staff for the US?
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99 I think they all might know a little more of JFK's ideas than you.
but if they went aipac they would all be great then, probably
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myjer
I disagree Lincoln was for equality not entitlement. That is what the Republicans are about.
they are about entitlement .
ok I'll agree with that
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Balletlover,
I have noted a slight visual resemblance to the late lamented Cooke, and I suspect Justin's highest secret dreams might include becoming a successor, but, sadly, I reckon the mentor's remark might be something along the lines of "could do better"....
A toast to Absent Friends, Slainte!
ed
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Ed:
The Obamas have privelege, status and success on every level. They are on the inside of America's elite, and they earned that position.
The idea that they are victims is ridiculous. There are people losing their homes in the US. Tell them to feel sorry for the Obamas.
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To #140 Battlelover:
Americ is #48 for openness surpassed by all EU ountries?
Well whoever came up with that list is daft.
In the US you can write anything you want. It does not matter if you are a Nazi, communist or whatever.
Unlike the UK public figures have a very difficult time suing for Libel and politicians have no recourse at all. One can call for the overthrow of the Constittional governmet -- one just can not incite people to commit violence to do it.
In the US all speech is protected -- even hate speech.
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#111
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107 thats it.
simple.
He is nothing so he gets nothing.
just another old fat running around with his head in the sand.
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#111
Fnarr fnarr
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140 and all the others, just noicing the bias of webb. write a complaint to the bbc ombudsman.
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Tim,
Shylock was wealthy, and being a Jew, it's likely he was also intelligent and successful, but, undoubtedly despised by some for his ethnicity.
The Obamas are indeed successful, and "comfortably off," but far from wealthy by American standards. They have certainly earned their position, but are in no normal sense part of "America's elite - YET!
Privilege? NO!
Earned status? YES!
And I didn't hear any request to feel "sorry" for them - simply an attempt to make evident their NORMALITY.
Salaam etc.
ed
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ref 128 and 129
Well first Jacky Boy we have Freedom of Speech in this country even for idiots like you.
And Simon it seems you are fixated about color. I just don't think a man who has never apolgized for supporting terrorism or robert Mugabe is as admirable as John McCain
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majik where did nelson mandela get into that post
124. At 4:31pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref#107
A hero who suffered far greater torture than Nelson Mandela.
And a far better human being as well
Man you are a racist and this time I will not even try to get it struck.
Every time I call you a racist you deny it.
Every time you try to skirt with your words around your racism , you deny it.
But here again. how do you argue you are not a racist, when someone asks whats so impressive about Big chips and you respond with this.
You had better go read a dictionary and find out what a racist is before you type this rubbish again.
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#148
Its a cold shower for you,my Lad...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ignored by the national media:
Here is what the Chicago Sun Times reported on Michelle Obama Saturday before she spoke:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1122691,CST-NWS-hosp23.article
"Sen. Barack Obama's wife and three close advisers have been involved with a program at the University of Chicago Medical Center that steers patients who don't have private insurance -- primarily poor, black people -- to other health care facilities."
Interesting how my comment in #135 that gives gave a little bio on a nuber of Obama's Illinois politico friends and supporters-- reported in the Daily Herald -- has not been released by the mods here.
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you are free to prove what a racist idiot you are any time.
Big Chips(on his shopulder) is not going to win any peace prize.
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155
your as big a idiot as Majerk.THE SUN is not even a tabloid.
All it is known for is keeping a breast of things
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MikeIL,
As noted elsewhere, we have laws regarding potentially libellous statements - if it ain't true, it may be illegal.True freedom of speech shouldn't be freedom to lie.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To Ed Iglehart in #158:
Your comments are based on complete ignorance of the state of political affairs in Chicago.
The vast majority of the post in question was in fact atrributed to the Daily Herald -- a large Suburban daily newspaper outside Chicago.
Still find it hard to believe? Just check out John Kass' columns in the Chicago Tribune, or simply take a few minutes and peruse the websites of the Chicago Sun Times and/or the Chicago Tribune and use their search engines there to search whatever keywords you want -- like maybe "corruption".
Most people think that Chicago's days of political corruption are long gone -- that is sorely not the case.
An apology is owed to me dear sir.
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Off tangent.
but the proffessional protesters got out of hand for the second straight day.
This time there were dealt with
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If this forum has become so nasty after Ted Kennedy and Michelle Obama spoke, imagine what it will be like after the Clintons speak!
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#153
Fsssst
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AC (#27), I agree with you on Leach. Not the dynamic speaker the Democratic faithful like to hear, but in my opinion the one with the most substantive message of the evening. Completely wasted on most ultra-partisans of both major parties, I suppose.
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Submitted for the education of moderators, doubters and the people ignorant of Chicago politics here:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-johnkass,0,5724822.columnist
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Gary made me think about Hillary and I am now no longer in need of a cold shower.
Sad Sam
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mike ILL
"Your comments are based on complete ignorance "
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MikeIl
I made no claim to knowlegeFor what? I have not impugned you in any way. If you are referring to my clarification with regard to libel, it was simply that - a clarification. The BBC (via its moderators) are very careful.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#72, MagicK, #88, Dominick:
But, JFK is more relevant in this case, since
his younger brother was making the speech.
Just as the Dems have drifted off to the left,
Clinton being an exception, the Repubs have
been taken over by the far right.
Reagan would be run out of town today
by the Republicans; that's why McCain is
having such a hard time being one.
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As a Black American, I tire of the silly and ignorant comments, and childish entitlement of my compatriots. I feel embarrassed for the Obamas that they have been forced, by overt and covert racism, into the position of having to prove that they are "Americans". It felt like the constant struggle that Blacks (in European countries everywhere) face of proving that they are "human". In essence, Michele had to do an updated version of Sojourner Truth's "Ain't I A Woman". Very, very shameful for white America. You can bet that Cindy McCain or Maria Shriver (Arnold Schwartzenegger's wife) would never have to debase themselves to this level. Let's cut the b***. White America (rural Pennsylvanians, undecided and vocal feminists) needs to tell this talented man, who happens to be bi-racial, that it cannot tolerate his blackness and not string this thing out. Unlike Michele, I am still willing to say that I am NOT proud of my country.
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Live convention coverage for those with nothing 'better' to do...
;-)
ed
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Ed, I agree about the dominoes thing.
Personally, I'm just trying to stay out of the
path of the darn things.
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#166.
Excellant,
Natural remedies are allways the best.....
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150, Ed.
The wealthy, successful, intellegent Jew is a stereotype. Are you suggesting there are no poor, unsuccessful, stupid Jews?
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One more try.
Here is a link to the story in the Daily Herald outside Chicago. The Daily Herald is a large, Award-winning, highly regarded Suburban Daily here.
The mods here will not permit excerpted words from this article to appears for -- what reason I have no clue -- but what I excerpted and fully attributed begins under the sub-heading at the bottom of the article:
"With friends like these..."
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=229757
And as for libel and slander, I don't know how it works elsewhere, but the US truth is a universal defense against such claims.
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162, Gary.
Really nasty, I hope.
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Snark snark
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#175, MikeIL, very interesting.
Perhaps if the Dems had their convention
in Chicago this year it would be a giant
food fight reminiscent of '68.
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I watched Michelle Obama's speech with interest and, whilst it served its purpose, I cannot see how in the Democratic party's wildest dreams it could be labelled "brilliant". I currently live in the USA having moved from the UK a year ago and the press are singing her praises for a speech I felt was adequate and standard Democratic fare. Let's keep things in perspective and accept that it was a traditional Democratic speech which always includes the same formula. Where I grew up, the hardships I faced, how I progressed against adversity, what I feel about my family and what I want for their future and how i will include you all in my somewhat utopic and ideological dream.My main concern is that "brilliant" is the new "awesome" in America, bandied around with no true acknowledgement of the meaning. To quote Eddie Izzard when talking of the moon landings "It's awesome sir", "Like a hot dog?" "Like a million billion hot dogs sir".
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Ms Marbles,
Not at all, but there is plenty of truth in the stereotype. The only more intelligent gene pools (than the Ashkenazi) are certain east Asians. Shylock was obviously intelligent (and wealthy) enough to have accumulated either lendable capital or credit...A High IQ doesn't correlate with virtue
(scroll down) Neither is every so-called dataset to be treated as gospel...;-)
Shalom/Salaam
ed
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Well Michelle Obama has two kids - even if they're not exactly the "cutest children in the world" - so, guess that settles the matter of her "effeteness", anyway. As for her 'patriotism' she gives every indication of being as loyal to Israel as Barack and Biden, so guess she passes that test. "Oddness" apparently doesn't stand in the way of a privelged life, so maybe that's moot. But please do go ahead and wish on your "worst enemies" - and Barack/Biden's - such a hard, priveleged life. There are countless Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghans and others who would trade their circumstances for hers at the drop of a cluster bomb. Better to be in that armoured car with all those U.S. guns pointing out from you, than outside the enclosed safety with all those U.S. guns pointing - and firing - at you! If Barack Biden is so concerned about gun control, that's the best place to start. But you can be sure that Michelle's "oddness" won't extend to questioning that.
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For those who may be confused about US libel and slander:
"Truth and a valid public purpose
is a general defense.
Public figures are less protected targets than are private persons.
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Uzume13 (#179), I agree, but who are you quoting as having described it as "brilliant"?
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From the BBCThat's why they're so careful. It's a bit different under US law, I believe.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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if one more person refers to Michelle Obama as "articulate" I AM GOING TO SCREAM!
what do you expect her to sound like? Of course she's articulate! She's well educated.
it's almost as if you're surprised that she's smart or that she can properly formulate a sentence.
i've heard it time and time again in reference to black people in the public eye and it's really getting old. yes, black people speak well too, that's not new!
love and literacy.
scornitcher
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Michelle Obama was fine but what really bores me is all those rehearsed arm movements and pointing hands etc...which to be honest do really show a lot of rehearsing and end up giving an overall impression of a performance written and directed by someone who is not her.
On the contrary from a psychological point of view she comes across as strong, proud and may I say able to influence her husband big time.
I hope Obama wins but my feeling is that he will not and considering how things seem to be going Hillary Clinton will be blamed.
Which means ...8 years of McCain.
I'm feeling sick.
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#179, Uzume13, I have more or less the
same reaction to Michelle's speech.
They're going to have to do better than
that to win this election. So far, they seem
to be taking an "old Democrat" tilt which
appears to be shopworn.
Perhaps Bill could save the day, but I understand
that he has been asked to talk about "security"
and "foreign policy," which is not what he
wanted to talk about, so it remains to be
seen whether he can connect with anybody
other than the party faithful.
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scornitcher (#185), fortunately, I do not have sound on this computer.
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180, Ed.
I do not agree that there is any single group more intelligent collectively than any other group. Tests are skewed and those taking the tests have different motivations and foci. For instance, using standard psychological criteria North Africans test as paranoid. The result is obviously idiotic; the test is flawed.
Certain groups like to think of themselves as intellectually superior. As evidence they will tell you that they have more acceptances to, let's say, Harvard or Yale than any other group. It might well be that the group making that claim equates intelligence with education. That being the case it is of prime importance for them to go to presigious schools, gather up as many degrees as possible, etc. Again, the data is flawed.
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uksimona (#186), I don't think McCain would serve eight years. If he wins, there are plenty of people to blame besides Clinton. Principally, those of her supporters who would refuse to get behind Obama, but also Reverend Wright, and Obama himself for picking Biden instead of Chet Edwards as his running mate. It's all speculative and part of the game. McCarthy supporters in 1968 (such as myself) were blamed for Humphrey's loss to Nixon.
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#162 Gary: "imagine what it will be like after the Clintons speak!" - #176. allmymarbles: "Really nasty, I hope."
You may not care for her or her policies, but wishing something nasty on someone is akin to hate-speech; you should be ashamed.
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David (#192), I certainly don't wish the discourse on this thread to be nasty. I'm surprised the moderators allow as much venom as they do.
Of course, a little nastiness at a convention (as in the 1968 Democratic convention), is a lot more entertaining than the lovefest that conventions have become. Oh, for the good old days!
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Hi Gary_A_Hill,
#119
Missing the point a bit, though it would be great for the tabloids to hear Phil the Greek harping on about his 'darling Cabbage', how 'frightfully wonderful' HM is at 'keeping one's Heritage just so'... etc
Politics is not about what a spouse thinks of his/her partner, it's about policies, the economy, fortunately or not. We all have an opinion on Gordon Brown and his premiership, would it change our views if his wife gave an hour's speech (with fireworks exploding excitingly all around) about his greatest qualities as a husband and father? Hmm.
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...it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness...
It is astonishing that with 2 wars going on, the US economy in freefall, people losing their homes, collapsing education and infrastructure, the western world's saddest healthcare system, a virtually worthless US dollar, a bankrupt government, a corrupt banking system, and increasing poverty in the US, that anyone could possibly focus on THIS as an issue in an election.
Politics in this country have truly become bizarre when the candidate who is a minority from a single-parent family who worked his way up is considered "elitist", and a multi-millionaire member of the establishment is considered "an average guy". Even the dimmest of us can certainly spot what the issue is here. Fear-mongering at its classic best.
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Ref 190
"Principally, those of her supporters who would refuse to get behind Obama"
The reason many Hillary supporters refuse to vote for Obama is not because they are disillusioned or upset because their candidate was not nominated. Their vote for Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with liking her, they were voting against Obama for reasons that are not going to change between now and November.
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Some of the emotion on this blog seems to
be prevalent on the streets of Denver, as reported,
here.
A lot depends on what the Clintons do over the
next few days.
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With friends like these...
Here's a look at some of the key figures in Illinois politics and why Barack Obama might not want them in the spotlight.
Todd Stroger: Already facing claims of nepotism and cronyism regarding his ascension to Cook County Board president, Stroger then pushed a sales tax hike that makes the county's the highest in the country. Obama backed Stroger for the post.
Emil Jones Jr.: Obama's political mentor is an old-school Chicago Democrat who steered state money to favored institutions and got family on state payroll. Amidst recent Illinois financial gridlock, Jones wanted higher pay for lawmakers.
Michael Madigan: After Obama's pick for state treasurer - Alexi Giannoulias - beat Madigan's in 2006, the Illinois House speaker and Democratic Party chairman contemptuously called Obama "the Messiah." They've since buried the hatchet. Accused of thwarting the governor's agenda to advance his daughter, the state's attorney general.
Rod Blagojevich: During a recent spat with reporters, the Illinois governor repeatedly brought up Obama's name when asked about the conviction of Blagojevich's political fundraiser and adviser Tony Rezko. Blagojevich's administration is under federal investigation for its hiring and contracting practices.
Tony Rezko: Convicted this year for a multimillion-dollar state pension kickback scheme he orchestrated trading on his clout with the governor. Also had been a longtime pal of Obama who most recently helped the Obamas buy their Hyde Park mansion in 2005.
there
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John Kass
June 13, 2008
The last thing Sen. Barack Obama and Gov. Rod Blagojevich needed was that letter written by convicted Illinois influence peddler Tony Rezko promising he'd never rat out his pals.
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I heard Senator Biden saying on Radio 4 today that Mrs Obama would make the best first lady the US has ever had. I wonder how that comment will play with Hilary Clinton, who was first lady for 8 years, and her millions of supporters?
From this side of the pond, I haven't got a clue what Obama stands for or what his policies are. As one writer on this blog wrote, campaigning for "change" is meaningless. What does he mean by change?
Senator Obama (and his wife) both seem very articulate in talking the talk and saying absolutely nothing of substance. Is this what America wants? They are taking a big risk in my opinion if they elect him.
I'm no fan of McCain but I think it is far clearer what he stands for, and what the uS will get, if he becomes President.
I want to know what Obama will do if he becomes President and what impact he will have on the security of the world.
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185.
Quite right. Articulated means jointed ... as in an articulated lorry (or for that matter a centipede ...), Unfortunately amongst the verbally challeneged (including many academics), it has become a synonym for fluent ... sic transit gloria mundi ...
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I am convinced Obama will be the next president no matter what the opinion polls have been saying. All the Africian-American and white educated people will vote for him, whereas white and working class will vote for McCain. We have to look at the Africian-American population closely.
This election is all about Black and White, it's all about Race. There's no doubt about it. In the past they only got all white presidential candidates, but it's totally different this time, all the Black American will definitely vote for the Black, and the White will vote for the White; you can't change that pattern.
America will see and experience a divided society after this election, not just racial diversity, but also the class issues; middle class- highly educated and working class. It's been divided in the past, but this time we can all see the big division.
If Obama wins, he definitely needs to give Clinton a job in the White house, otherwise there will be a conflict between the White House and the Congress. Because Clinton will consolidate her power within the Congress and all her mates will support her all the way.
We definitely will have a Black American president, there is no doubt about it. If I dare to say, it's God's wills.
In the last 3 elections, I predicted who would be the president and I was always right, I hope this time I am right too.
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91, David.
I never claimed to be a goody-two-shoes. I truly dislike both Clintons. I particularly dislike the their behavior in this campaign. Yes, I do hope the reaction to their speeches will be negative. Maybe that will be the end their bullying of everyone around them.
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robzaba (#193), "policies" are the business of government, and we in the United States should not expect the spouse to participate in the business of the President as head of the Executive Branch of the government. In the matters of the President as Head of State, it is somewhat different. The President's spouse accompanies him (or her, perhaps someday) at state events, and it is proper for the American people to have an opinion on how this person will represent the United States in that role. That is the difference between the US and the UK. In the US, the President's role includes some things which are the responsibility of the Queen in the UK.
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""With friends like these...
Here's a look at some of the key figures in Illinois politics and why Barack Obama might not want them in the spotlight.
Todd Stroger: Already facing claims of nepotism and cronyism regarding his ascension to Cook County Board president, Stroger then pushed a sales tax hike that makes the county's the highest in the country. Obama backed Stroger for the post.
Emil Jones Jr.: Obama's political mentor is an old-school Chicago Democrat who steered state money to favored institutions and got family on state payroll. Amidst recent Illinois financial gridlock, Jones wanted higher pay for lawmakers.
Michael Madigan: After Obama's pick for state treasurer - Alexi Giannoulias - beat Madigan's in 2006, the Illinois House speaker and Democratic Party chairman contemptuously called Obama "the Messiah." They've since buried the hatchet. Accused of thwarting the governor's agenda to advance his daughter, the state's attorney general.
Rod Blagojevich: During a recent spat with reporters, the Illinois governor repeatedly brought up Obama's name when asked about the conviction of Blagojevich's political fundraiser and adviser Tony Rezko. Blagojevich's administration is under federal investigation for its hiring and contracting practices.
Tony Rezko: Convicted this year for a multimillion-dollar state pension kickback scheme he orchestrated trading on his clout with the governor. Also had been a longtime pal of Obama who most recently helped the Obamas buy their Hyde Park mansion in 2005."
--Daily Herald
Yes, DougTexan, that's it. All these characters are Obama's buddies and loyal supporters "going back to the day". There must have been a change in Mods or something to allow you to post what I could not.
AND for those in the UK or elsewhere where "freedom of Speech" is cheapened -- Here in the US politicans can not under any circumstances sue for libel or slander. Not that would matter in this case, because everything listed above is true.
In the event that some US politician should want to sue in a britsih court (and be laughed at by every American) one would only need to show the news clipping from the major newspapers in and around Illinois where political corruption is concerned.
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I believe no matter what she does there will always be a small group of bigots that will never change their view about her.
America and the world has come a long way and unfortunately there are a few who are always eager to remind us that we still have some work to do. These is the same remnant of people who were ready to crucify Gandhi and of course made martyr of Martin Luther King. The same explains the motorcade and the security surrounding the family. We cannot take any chances.
What did Michelle Obama do to require so much undoing? It is ridiculous even Justin feels she should have done more. If it was that ''proud comment" we must be too shallow. Personally I feel people who are accusing her are jealous of her accomplishments and due to their barbaric mindsets cannot fathom her being a first lady.
We have made strides and we should all strive for a better world. The most encouraging thing is that we are in the majority and we will not be stopped. Let's aspire for a better American and the entire human race.
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113 Glasgow
. . . and Trooping the Colour is a real moneyspinner - dollars, yuan, you name it.
119 Gary
. . . but then Prince Philip only opens his mouth to change feet
;-)
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DougTexan
been elsewhere but catching up and very pleased to hear you have had such good news from your brother
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DominickVila (#195), you may well be right. I do not know what motivates the Clinton supporters at this point. It is nevertheless true that those of them who, although Democrats, refuse to support the ticket of the Democratic Party this year, will be in large part responsible for losing the election, if it comes to that, regardless of their particular reasons for not supporting Obama.
Voters who are committed to individuals rather than parties will be on the losing side more often than not.
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DougTexan (#197), of course we all know that Texas politics is squeaky-clean, don't we?
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I heard on NPR today that the Dever Highway Patrol stopped a guy weaving through traffic today. They searched his van and found high powered rifles fitted with cites, bullet proof vest, and other terroristic paraphinaila. What let to the search with that the driver was driving with an expired license and the rental truck was not in his name.
After seveal hours the driver led the police and FBI to his confederates. It seems that they had planned to assassinate Oboma as he gave his speech in Mile High Statium.
The question then becomes: Is racism over in America; is Obama on borrowed time; how much luxury does Michelle and the children have? Robert Kennedy, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X.
I found Machelle Obama's speech genuine, but not amount of rethorical devices can turn BLACK INTO WHITE. She is the wife of a millionare, so how different is she and Barack from any other middle class couple. The US refuses to see Blacks in terms of class, only in terms of RACE. Of course she and Barack are not like the "Joe and Josie Sixpack", even White Americans regardless of income don't want to be classed as COMMON. What would you think of Havard graduates who did not have an above average standard of living and were not articulate. Was she suppose to RAP. She knows how to RAP, but RAPIN' wasn't appropriate.
Finally, perhaps now you can understand the justifiable paranoia of Reverend Jeremish Wright. He has lived and seen just how violent White people can be toward even the most benign African American. Ask yourself, "Has anyone threatened John McCain's life? No, he is a White man with all the White Priviledge of not having to explain himself as a human being. Is he like US, I hope not because War mongering is not my default port.
A man once told me that if you are parnoid, you live longer. Live live the Obamas ins peace and happiness. There are too few good men, Black, White, Yellow, Brown or Red out there to loose even one to hatred.
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busby2 (#199), Biden does have a way with words, doesn't he? I'm guessing that statement would make them angry, except that they were already angry. It may be that angry women will sink the Democratic ticket this year. As the party is a coalition of a large number of disparate groups, alienation of one group or another is a chronic problem they face.
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#210
Amen to that.
He was also high on meth and if you look at the pictures on CNN one of the 3 guys looks remarkably like Cletus the slack jawed yokel from the Simpsons.
The crazies are out. Some even have keyboards.
Disturbed Sam
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Marygrav (#210), not to make light of a grave incident, but we are all on "borrowed time." Or, in the memorable words of William Munney (as spoken by Clint Eastwood), "We all have it coming, kid."
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208, Gary.
About one-third of voters class themselves as independents. I am one of them. Yes, I vote for the person, and that sounds reasonable to me. Where is the virtue in voting for someone I think unsuitable just because he belongs to a particular party?
Sometimes the candidate we vote for loses. This happened to me twice when I voted for Ross Perot. What you do not see is that I was not on the losing side, because my vote counted. It gave me the opportunity to express my dissatisfaction with the party candidates. Of course, I would have preferred for my candidate to win.
I do not believe in "party loyalty." I am not a robot, nor am I enamored of dogma. Apparently other people feel as I do because our numbers grow each year.
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One question on the previous blog related to how the people who are losing homes, farms and jobs (see NYRB "What's the matter with Arkansas") keep destroying themselves by voting for the religious right and the Republicans.
Among the obvious propagandists, it would be good to hear more from DougTexas as to his thinking and motives.
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Justin thinks that "It doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word) - it merely begins the fight back against them."
While I am still angered at some of your generalisations regarding some aspects of this nation, I'd still like to warn you to not fall into the Republican propanganda of "she's not patriotic enough!" They're just fear mongering, because its the only tactic they know how to use in a desprit attempt to keep their slim lead in the poles! I doubt they honestly believe it as well! I mean think about it! Why would someone who "hates" so to speek their country run, or acompany someone who's running for president? If one truely hated their nation, I'm sure they'd find other means of filling their time! And since when did criticising one's country become defined as hateing it? The whole claim is rediculous!!
He continues: "As I was leaving the convention centre I saw the motorcade taking Michelle and the children home, all of them sitting in a row in a big Suburban surrounded by gun-toting secret service men. It is a privileged life they are leading, but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy..."
Yes, but unfortionately that is the price one must pay should they decide to run for the highest office in the land in one of the most powerful nations in the world. But you're right. Perhaps our "gun-toteing" secret service can take some serious advice from Gordan Brown's security detail on how to not be so paranoyed and less obvious, huh? Perhaps you could have a talk with them? Just a thought.
O and just so you know, she leads a "priviliged" life because she's a loyer, and loyers tend to be rellitivly well off, though I am certain that in no way would she be able to personally aford all that lavish protection!!
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ref #205
I think you are falling into the Axelrod trap. Any who criticizes the Obamas is a bigot or racists.
I don't like her becuase she has a major sense of an entitlement and has been given a pretty easy ride.
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210, Mary.
I enjoyed your comment; we share the same view. You made the important point of blacks now being of several classes (not just dirt poor). This development is not consciously understood by the majority of whites, and is probably the reason Obama might be thought "uppity."
It is clear in the stratification of black society, that blacks parallel us in every way, and that the ONLY difference is color.
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allmymarbles (#214), we do not disagree by much, as I am also an independent and inclined from time to time to vote for third-party (or independent) alternatives. But we choose to stand on a principle which discounts party affiliation.
My remarks were directed at those who choose party affiliation. The reason one joins a party is so that ones political power can be increased by compromising on minor differences in order to achieve success on matters of greater importance. Someone who registers as a Democrat, then refuses to support the Democratic candidate when their own choice loses, is not playing the party game. They have a perfect right to refuse to support the party nominee, of course, but that is the reason that the Democratic Party has been weak in presidential elections in recent decades. If the Democrats can't figure out how to combine forces to take the middle ground from the Republicans on a more regular basis, who will?
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195, Dominick.
You are at least partly right. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Frankly it hadn't occurred to me.
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I thought Michelle Obama?s speech was great. Calculated , transparent well rehearsed and yet a wonderful speech because it is exactly what middle America wanted to hear. I?ve listened to the TV pundits in the right and left say for months that Michelle Obama is a political liability because she is too opinionated and not patriotic(because of one comment?). There are some pretty ugly feelings underlying this sort of thinking; in this day a women still has to prove that she is a good mother, and housewife even when she is much more that.
To the point I heard Chris Matthews of NBC say last night some thing to the effect of ?black people are saying what more does White America want? They are told to get a good education, have a nice family, have a good career, give back to the community and if you do everything right than you are accepted into the American dream.? These people are the real life Huxtables and it?s still not enough. Watching MO try to convince people that she and her husband were ?just like ya?ll? was necessary even if a bit painful?.
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#209 Gary Hil wrote:
"Voters who are committed to individuals rather than parties will be on the losing side more often than not."
I guess Gary is unaware that most of the founding fathers of the United States (Washington and Adams included) tried desparately to avoid politial parties because they viewed England's Parliament as dangerous, ineffective and sadly corrupted by political parties.
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For those who have made comments about the singularly American phenomenon of gushing, slobbering sentiment, please recall the three-ring circus surrounding the untimely death of Diana before making such knee-jerk judgments. While I tend to agree that way too much is marketed to the masses here in the USA based on feeling rather than reason (politics included), it is quite disingenuous of you to forget your own clone of Clinton by the name of Blair, feeling everyone's pain. Slobbering constitutes the best of the marketing to feeling. The worst of it is the Karl Rove style fear mongering, straight to the reptilian brain. While we have our Fox News and other tabloid outlets which cater to the lowest common denominator and fear factor, you have plenty of your own Murdochian franchises, doing it all Brit style so you are hardly in a position to judge our lowball media messaging (and the morons to which that rot is targeted) to be worse than your own. It just comes off as grossly uninformed yet perpetually arrogant British snark of the worst sort. Arrogance is detestable whether from W and his imperial cohort or the jolly old toff "the sun never sets..." variety from your end of the pond.
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On the contrary, I am very well read in the history of our founding fathers, and aware that Washington, in particular, was averse to parties. It is nevertheless the case today, as it has been for a very long time, that the way to win elections is with a strong party organization, not merely a strong candidate. Those whose objective was to elect Hillary Clinton president, rather than to elect a Democratic president, have already lost their objective. Now they are faced with a choice. If their choice is not to vote for Obama, then I would ask what their current objective is.
Perhaps the idea is that if McCain wins, then Clinton will have another chance in 2012. Do they then believe that no Supreme Court seats will open up in the next term, or rather that McCain's appointments will be acceptable to Clinton supporters? Perhaps they believe that Supreme Court appointments just don't matter much.
I'm an independent, myself, so the chronic difficulties of the Democratic Party in presidential elections do not bother me much. It's the dynamics of the process I find interesting. At the moment, I'm just trying to understand understand where Clinton supporters are coming from and where they are going.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I said BBC moderators are not the sharpest knives it the drawer. Not even in the one where the butter knives are kept.
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226, staphylococcus aureus.
I envy the moderators. They get to punish you.
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Re:#139. Working out and staying fit are important not only to the body but to the mind. Physical activity not only improves coordination and balance, but reduces stress and improves memory. She is taking time out for her own health and that is important.
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219, Gary.
Aren't you skating close to the "lesser of two evils"? I run up against this argument when I don't like either candidate.
As to registering as a democrat or a republican, sometimes you are forced into it in order to vote in the primary. (The rules vary a lot from state to state.) So I had to register as a democrat this year so that I could vote for Obama. But that does not make me a democrat. Come to think of it, it confuses the designation "independent." We are being assigned to one party or another without real justification.
I am supporting Obama and will vote for him. But if Clinton had won, I would have stayed home in November. With multiples of me that would have given McCain an edge. But there is no way I will vote for someone I distrust so thoroughly.
And as to the Democratic Party being weak in recent years, all that tells me is that they have not had viable candidates. (Although we tend to forget that Gore got the popular vote.)
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i was totally taken by her. she reached me in my heart and i didn't even hear the entire speech. the thing i like about obama and what attracts me to him is that he lives in close proximity to his heart. this is his claim to fame. your other politicians (incl. biden) have the prepackaged smile and the microwaved answer. if necessary they can stab you in your back all the while smiling. while i know that obama has not always voted 'correctly', i fear most that he should become so emmeshed in the mire, that he should lose touch with his heart. in the meantime i completely taken by their ability to know from the heart the state of my condition.
from
an american citizen who longs to be loved by the country they love
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AllMyMarbles (#229), no, I do not advocate voting for the "lesser of two evils." If any Clinton supporter actually believes Obama to be evil, I would expect her not to vote for him. I doubt if many people who support any Democrat believe Obama is evil.
If a person participates in electoral politics at all, it should be with some objective in mind. Although I am an independent, my objective this year is to take the presidency away from the Republicans, and to give the Democrats a solid majority in the Senate (i.e. without Lieberman), and to keep control of the House. Although my initial preference was Biden, I am supporting the Democratic nominee this year. (I just lucked out in having Biden selected for VP.)
Now I just want to know, of the various groups who supported Hillary Clinton this year, what was your objective? What is your objective now? What actions support your objective?
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229, Candace.
It is also my experience that there is an element of narcissism involved.
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#217
Because working your way up from a poor family to be middle class is an easy ride? As compared to inheriting millions and grabbing a status hubby when his first wife is disfigured? Gimme a break!
#227
I think he does that to himself.
#228
Couldn't agree more. Plus she looks hot.
Unhealthily Infatuated Sam
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#7 AMM
spot on..but sadly far too many people are swayed by polemics or pathos and the media jump on this, spin it for their own ends and the regurgitated product is lapped up...if everyone took the obvious stance, that you made, it would all be a non issue, and what is the point of the convention anyway...he is the nominee, deal done, other than to boost ones ego and pat oneself on the back, what does it actually achieve in electing the nominee, nowt, he is already the candidate!
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In reply to #231, Gary_A_Hill:
"Although I am an independent, my objective this year is to take the presidency away from the Republicans, and to give the Democrats a solid majority in the Senate (i.e. without Lieberman), and to keep control of the House."
Ah, you advocate a virtual dictatorship where all the government are of one mind. It will be much easier for them to remove all the checks and balances in the system that way.
What you are looking for is a Hugo Chavez.
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#232
Marby,
I know, but . . .
Think Hillary, think Hillary.
Bad Sam
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231, Gary.
Like you, this year it is my intention to get rid of as much of the Bush dictatorship as possible. For the first time in my life I will vote a straight democratic ticket. As a bonus, I hope to see Joe Lieberman, the weasel, thrown out of the party and marginalized.
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236, Sam.
Why should I think Hillary? Are you suggesting I put a hex on her?
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Ms Marbles,
You mean Qaddaffi isn't?Seriously, I added caveats, but the test data are what they are, and there are differences. I agree that any test is culturally skewed and probably also in other ways to which our very preconceptions blind us (or any tester). n the Nature/nurture debate is insoluble, and inherently 'silly' BOTH are important.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace, Ma'am ;-)
ed
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ref #233
She has had according news reports a pretty easy ride after graduation including a high paying patronage job
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ref #231
Lost your marbles, a dictatorship is in Venezuela.
So anyone who does not conform to the Soros wing of the Democratic party is a weasal. So much for democracy for you.
Immune to the Obama Kool-aid
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#238
Hi Marby,
That was a 'note to self'. I find myself developing an attitude towards Michelle Obama similar to that of Samuel Pepys observations of Lady Castlemain. I have no such obsession with Hillary, quite the opposite.
That said I do not have Mr Pepys conflicted opinions of his obsession, mine are entirely positive and honorable. Well, positive.
Waiting for the speech, should be interesting to watch both it and the media.
Expectant Sam
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Frigid,
Are there any left?Complain about this comment
Ed, Marbles, your discussion about paranoia
makes me suggest that you rent "The President's
Analyst" on DVD.
You won't feel any better, but at least you won't
feel like complaining about your Verizon bill.
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Why is it that every republican seems to label anyone who is progressive and slightly more left then " central-left" as communist - it is like saying Bush is so right he is a facist. It is not fair and just stupid. Anyway it would be more accurate to paint Bush as a facist as the OHIO 2004 votincg machine scandal has been prooved as people in posistions to make the difference have come forward. Just youtube OHIO 2004 to see what I mean. This is not democracy and thus the word dictatorship can be applied if your calling Obama a communist.
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News Flash Marbles...
Lieberman has not been a democrat for years.
He is too intelligent and has too much integrity to be one any linger.
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That's more like it!
Wake up, America!
ed
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Gary Hill wrote:
"Perhaps the idea is that if McCain wins, then Clinton will have another chance in 2012. Do they then believe that no Supreme Court seats will open up in the next term, or rather that McCain's appointments will be acceptable to Clinton supporters? Perhaps they believe that Supreme Court appointments just don't matter much"
There is certainly some percentage of Hillary supporters, for whom getting a woman elected -- any woman --- takes precedent over anything else. Before this issue all other concerns fall away.
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G&R,
One of my favourites! TPC
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Netcrusher wrote:
"it is like saying Bush is so right he is a facist."
Netty -- point of fact: Historically fascists have been socialists: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini et al -- Fascists every single one, and socialists.
Good night.
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In reply to #245, NETCRUSHER:
Your argument is a reductio ad Hitlerum. You win the Godwin award.
You are correct that extremism is ridiculous, and "progressives" are merely socialists, not communists.
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In reply to #243, Ed Iglehart:
Funny! I was thinking that myself.
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246, staphylococcus aureus.
It is because Joe Lieberman is one thing and pretends to be another that he is a WEASEL.
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#240
Getting a good degree from a working class background, then getting a good job is not about entitlement.
That is the American Dream.
Shame on you for criticising someone who made it happen for her family!
Sad Sam
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Mable-set-the-table, and make the beds while you're at it, BBC moderators clearly are agaisnt women because they block my postings every time I try to educate you.
BTW, I never posted anything about Lieberman. Are you losing it? Senility setting in? Maybe you just need new eyeglasses. I wouldn't vote for a politician who would only give six days a week. He's not my idea of a President or Veep.
I listened to HRC's speech. Sounded to me like she was still running for President. The expected words, the expected delivery. Ho hum, we women have come so far, yada, yada, yada. Everyone put their own spin on it. Commentators on Fox dismissed it as the minimum she had to say for Obama. Her number one supporter James Carville was gushing over it. PMSMBC had their usual PMS bout. I think she would have made a good President. Not one word about the war on terror though and not one endorsement for Obama being qualified to be Commander in Chief. One black woman delelegate Ann Mills interviewed on CNN was crying saying she wouldn't vote for McCain but she didn't think Obama was qualified and might not vote at all.
One thing I have to say about HRC, she looked far more like a leader than anything I've seen come out of Europe in a very long time...maybe in about the last 40 or 50 years. Miles above the current crop of losers there. What a joke Segolene Royal is compared to her. And to think the Democrats turned her down for this slick talking inexperienced Harvard elitist. She was the Republican's toughest potential adversary. Now they have a chance. Lots of angry women out there, lets see if the GOP can capitalize on it.
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242, Sam.
I listened to the Clinton speech for a few minutes. I basically wanted to see how vigorously she would support Obama. In the few moments I watched she gave her husband a plug and went on her heath-care hobbyhorse, but otherwise came out strongly for Obama. So she did her part. I personally think she is more pragmatic than Bubba. Let's see what he does tomorrow.
I didn't listen to the whole thing because I hate these long-winded scripted speeches. Ditto the debates. Those I never watch. Well, they aren't debates, are they?
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Connect? That's not exactly the word...
I listened to her dance around the crucial questions:
Who is Barack, and why should we trust this man with less than two years in the Senate with the Presidency?
She sounded contrived, controlled, a sort of Diana Ross-like Barbie doll.
The real Michelle is the one who dishes vitriol when she thinks no one is watching--Remember the declaration earlier this year?
'For the first time in my adult life....'
And then, when confronted, things really turn nasty, as when the Tennessee Republican Party responded with a video detailing why people from all walks of life are proud to be Americans, and BHO starts issuing threats.
This tells us who she is, who he is, and why we best run the other way from them both!
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241, Magic.
No. Lieberman is a weasel because he is a weasel.
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Rozaba:
"The US people are very welcome to their gush, and that might be the very reason GW Bush was allowed in, too much personal slobber, resulting in a somewhat unknown quantity, a loose cannonball wreaking havoc with International relations, and more importantly for the US people, with the US economy..."
And the British people are welcome to their patronizing contempt.
(I thought Oscar Wilde was dead?)
But, in fact, I find most of these convention speeches to be sentimental, condescending and hollow. However, I am watching because I am an American and it is our election.
Why are you bothering to watch - and then to write about it? It seems rather pointless for someone who inhabits such a high level of consciousness. Or invective.
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260, staphylococcus aureus.
Nice try, staphy. If you have read my comments, presuming you can read, and that someone literate is not reading to you, then you know that I am against the Iraqi and any future war.
As Lieberman is a rabid warmonger, that would not put him on my list of favorite people. In that he voted against the wishes of his constituents, that would make him a weasel.
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#260, this is pretty vitriolic, even for you MAII.
allmy is entitled to like or dislike any public
figure for any reason, regardless of ethnicity.
I'm sure that Lieberman's ethnic background
has nothing to do with it.
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TimothyR444
Have you ever seen a British political party's convention? I have. It's just slightly less exciting than watching grass grow. Most of their people are gray. Gordon Brown, John Majors. Tony Blair actually looked almost like he was alive at times. They are captivated by the US presidential election process because it is so interesting and because it is long enough to be substantive and have lots of drama. Too bad they don't have anyone who can explain it to them. They have BBC. But who will explain it to BBC?
The British are even more jealous of us than the French are. That's why in one breath they tell us they invented us and in the next they tell us how awful we are. It's so thinly veiled, so pathetic, and so very funny.
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mable make the bed, if you were in Iran, they'd make you wear a veil in public and you would have all the rights of a slave. You just don't want to see the US attack Iran. I can't blame you, after all, you said you were an Iran "specialist." Frankly I think propagandist would be a more appropriate description. It's tough being a specialist about something which doesn't exist anymore but if it comes to that, it will of course be their own fault just like Iraq was. Did you hear McCain's parody on the Beach Boys song Bar Bar Bar Barbara Ann? He sang; bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran. Pretty funny...except to an Iraniac.
What if I said about them what they say about us; I'd like a world without Iran. Death to Iran. Have they rescinded their murder contract on Salman Rushti? Nice folks. The mafia has nothing on them.
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262, Guns.
Thank you, Guns. Staphylococcus is upset that I have found out all the different names he is using. The total is four. He is also upset about the human/chimp experiment. He is afraid we will discrimate against him which, of course, we will.
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#265, marbles, aren't you being unfair to chimps?
I recently learned that chimpanzees are capable
of quite advanced behavior, such as explained
here.
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# 217
Please give me 2 reasons why you think Michelle has a 'sense of an entitlement'?
'easy ride'? Are we talking about talking about the same person here? Michelle Obama and easy ride do not go.
She has been skinned for one baseless gaffe. The republicans know the only was they will win these elections is by smearing mud all over the Obamas. They can't talk about the issues because they don't have anything new to offer to the Americans.
p/s: Michelle Obama is not running for any office. Not everyone who dislike her is a bigot. In fact the latter is in the minority and they can be very loud, yet very subtle.
Why do you think they are blowing money on -ve ads? If you love America please pay attention to the key note address by Mark Warner with an open heart. That is what you and I can make America come Nov 4th. The best thing with democracy is that it empowers the people. You and I can bring forth the change we need in the government. We have to set aside our trivial differences and vote wisely.
By the way I'm a republican by values but I'm tired of being taken advantage of. America is bigger than pro life and pro choice. Obama is appealing to me because he has the ability to unite us for a common goal, advancement of USA and the American people.
peace and unity.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How can the world have respect for the US political sysntem after FLORIDA 2000 and OHIO 2004??? That would never happen in Australia or the UK. This is DELIBERATE FRAUD. What happened in OHIO with the electronic voting machines is not acceptable and it has been proved. How can the people stand by - is it because it is America and people are 2 content with their own lives to think that this is not that serious??? I look on downunder with horror. Your losing so much respect even from your old allies
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270, net.
If you think those results were bad, wait til November. Many states now have electronic voting and the machines can be hacked into very easily. As far as I can see, whoever hacks best wins.
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#267, babawaya, I agree with you about Warner's
speech. He actually made a point, as opposed to
all formulaic stuff that Michelle and Hillary bandied
about.
#270, net, you might think that a country that
invented microprocessors and is taking the
lead in nanotechnology and biuotech
could do something simple like count votes,
but it turns out that our politicians are lawyers,
not engineers.
Let that be a lesson to you.
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Michelle Obama's speech was flat and full of common slogans you hear in political meetings.
The way of showing and using their children during the show might not be what the American voters are waiting for.
Also you cannot sell a non-existent programme like some washing powder.
As for Hillary's support, that was the least she could do.
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266, guns.
I my comments 268 and 269 are not printed, I will get back to you tomorrow.
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Rugden,
Have you bothered to check if it's "non-existent?"The only non-existent thing 'round here is enough interest to sit down and actually do some reading, instead of making stupid remarks.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Re 223
Yes, there was a three-ring circus here in the UK when Diana died and many of us found it abhorent. However, it spontaneous and not manipulated. Also, Diana didn't have her finger on the nuclear button as the whoever is elected the next President of the US will have.
DWNottingham
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Massachusetts has no Republican opposition to create a healthy dynamic balance, politically, and because of the imbalance, Tip O'Niell's "All politics is local" becomes "all politics is personal." Here, many candidates for State Representative and State Senator don't put party affiliation on local ads or lawn signs. Yet everyone here ---and I mean everyone ---knows that you follow up and get behind the Party's nominee no matter what you thought of him or her, no matter or what went on in or during or before or after the primaries. FULL STOP. I was amazed that Mrs Obama was given such a flash setting to speak --I mean after all, who the hell is she? Somebody's wife, right? Even if in your more worser moods, when you thought Hillary's ascension made America resemble too closely some hispanic bananaland with its family | man | wife dynasties, you knew she was running for President as an elected US Senator (D-NY) and not just "Bill's First Lady." Michelle Obama was asked a few months ago, "Would you support HRC if she gets nominated?" Reply: "I'd have to think about that." I am amazed that they didn't arrange to have her mysteriously hospitalized, or joining a convent, or something, rather than giving her a national perch from which to speak. If anyone other than an assassin can prevent Obama's election, it's his wife. And they have Secret Service all over that, but her? May the Goddess who got us here spare us more exposure of the wit and wisdom of this ambitious, half-smart, puffed-up, pseudo-intellectual Modern Black Woman (ta-da). Or at least gag her 'til the returns are counted.
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NICE STAFF MICHELLE. CLINTON BEST SPEECH.
John Mccain may not be the appropraite President considering how he treated his former wife Carol. Obviusly, he will treat the ordinary Americans the same.
Do not vote for this Guy.
Rgds
Jon
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Been away for a while but it's good to see MAII still up to his high jinx!
MAII - is the purpose of a political party's conference excitement? Missed that one for some reason.
What Tony Blair actually looked like was a plastic phony, all cheesy style, no substance - is this what you go for? He was accused by many as acting in a 'Presidental' way, this wasn't meant as a compliment.
I don't think that we are captivated by the US presidential election process. It's long, boring and somewhat irrelevant (surely you'd agree given that you seem to have stated elsewhere you could put a monkey in charge of the US and the result would be the same). Maybe Bush was an attempt at this?
I would rather see this blog looking at other aspects of US (even other parts of the American continents)!
Ah yes, the BBC, known thorughout the world for it's poor journalism. And of course the Empire programme that you endlessly go ON about.
Maybe we are more jealous of USA than the French are (French: negative 1 million on the jealously scale, GB negative 900 thousand). I don't think your country is awful (some of it's bloggers maybe) but I don't see why you think that much of your nation descending from Europeans and those same people being critical of aspects of your culture are mutually exclusive. they are not.
So who's fault was the Iraq war? I kind of missed the leap you made there (just after you'd chastised someone for not wanting to invade another country). Sorry if I'm a bit slow, I was educated in Europe (fed propoganda by the left wing BBC and the right wing Murdoch press so I can hardly hope to have a balanced view).
Erm, seems like you are saying you want a world without Iran, death to Iran. How are you different from them? Did they 'start' it? I'm sure that argument could go on forever, or at least until you have a president who thinks it's funny to sing about bombing other countries.
Keep up the good work, keeps me smiling I know.
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The two party system can be debated in the same way as Coca Cola and Pepsi. Coca Cola and Pepsi are the same product with different names. Some people will tell you that they are the exact same and others will tell you they are completely different but both are way to massive and powerful for anybody to consider a realistic and viable alternate. The power of the people is being diluted. The neocons have always been a bigger threat than the democrats.(Ronald Reagan and the Bush's are a horrific arsenal of political thinking)
Comment #37 has it spot on and also the fact that McCain said that he will allow oil drilling on the coast...Never underestimate the power of Corperate America!!!
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I became an Obama supporter when I watched Michelle's interview with Larry King some months ago. She is the greatest. I predict she'll be the most famous and loved First Lady since Jackie Kennedy.
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To: TimothyR444
#259
"Why are you bothering to watch - and then to write about it? It seems rather pointless for someone who inhabits such a high level of consciousness. Or invective."
Exactly the type of comment I feared from an American!! I am watching because we (in the rest of the world) are interested in the world! Surprised?! Not like you obviously, and your 'The World in 60 Seconds' news programmes!!
So, I repeat, politics is about issues, policies, debate, not this trifling gush.
Oh dear me, my high level of consciousness has made me go all giddy... :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVHZHuyVeio
Chris Matthews takes on a PUMA. I suspect race and the Muslim thing is the main reason why some Dems are voting for McCain.
Even if he is or was a Muslim, so what?
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Finally!
Hope it works!;-)
ed
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(Please pardon me for the spiel. I have a lot to say.)
Justin, I think you miss the point, or rather, the big picture: Michelle Obama is not the main event, but rather her speech I think is designed to make a jab at the opposition, not make a knockout. (She is his wife, not a politician: it isn't her place to speak on the issues as much as the others.) The bigger punches are on the way, and if you look closely, they are slowly getting larger.
Ted Kennedy, well, this convention could very well be his last: unbeknownst to most Brits is the fact that one of Kennedy's nicknames is "the Lion of the Senate" because he has a reputation of being a fierce liberal politician and a champ for social issues (his record is actually longer and more impressive than his brother Robert's.) The fact is, this lion is very sick/ may be dying and if you looked closely at him when he spoke he wasn't in the best shape: he had an ace bandage peeking out of his sleeve (this may indicate he is using painkillers as bandages like that hold the needle in place.) His very being there gives a very powerful message indeed: not insomuch because of what he says about Barack Obama, but because of what he represents and what creditability he lends to the campaign overall; it is somewhat like watching an old general give a farewell speech. (Take that, McCain: you were a POW, but this guy has survived Nixon's White House, alcoholism, and his brother's murders.)
Hillary Clinton's big task was to quell the most ardent of her supporters. She has started that process, which shall be complete when her delegates get released to Obama on the last day. Hillary did a fair job but didn't need to do fabulously (I shall explain why in a moment.) I give her a great deal of credit for her bravery as this can't have been an easy speech to give: it certainly wasn't easy for some Clintonistas to hear. The speech was good enough and will need a little time to hit home as it is replayed on national tv and on youtube, but to put the final nail in the coffin on unifying the party she and Obama are going to need....Bill.
Bill Clinton has never failed at a convention in his life: sure, he made some boneheaded mistakes on the campaign trail this year, but on the other hand he has an amazing ability to suck his audience in: watch the 2004 DNC if you don't believe me. If Bill gives a clever speech (and he will be under a great deal of pressure to do it) there is a good chance of a nice left hook right cross combo giving the opposition a run for their money, a good lead into....
Obama. The reason why Barack Obama is renting out a huge venue has to do with the "knockout punch" I suspect he is planning. His speech will be high falutin', there will be thousands of Obamaniacs there, and generally it will be like the second coming of Michael Jackson (height of fame, not current lunatic.) Obama does need facts and figures so his ephemeral message of change doesn't lose luster, but I suspect 1) This is less of a problem due to the fact that many of his supporters are young and tech savvy (a lot of his policies are posted on his site) 2) Biden is now officially on the ticket: he will be there to go after McCain and set down said facts from now on and 3) It is better to go over the facts and figures when he meets up with McCain during the debates so it will be fresh in voters' minds (Gore made the error of being pedantic with facts and figures and it wound up hurting him just enough to start this 8 year nightmare.)
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paulcrossleyII
What a miserable excuse for a posting. However, at this hour you offer 30 seconds of amusement.
Is the purpose of a political party convention (this is not a conference) to generate excitement? In part yes. That's how it generates interest, gets out its message, gets out the vote, by exciting people to understand and believe in its program. Seems to me in the UcK, most people don't believe in anything.
If Tony Blair had actually been a live human being instead of a robot, the correct answer to Yo Blair would have been Yo Bush. But not being human, there was no connection. Now if Obama is elected and holds up his hand and says Gordo, gimme five what will Gordo do, shrug and look stupid? That's what he always does. You see, there is no humanity there, no special connection. Just canned rehearsed speeches. Small wonder British politics is a snoozer.
If you are not captivated by American politics, what are YOU doing here? Why are so many of your countrymen watching it? Why did BBC lead off last night with a story about a speech made by a candidate who lost? Why is BBC covering it at all. American news doesn't cover UcK conventions. We usually don't know there is even a campaign going on there...or care.
I never said that we could put a monkey in charge and it wouldn't matter. Reread what I said and try again. Start with the badly flawed BBC series "America Age of Empire" and pay special attention to the part where it explains how American policy is made.
BBC is miserable excuse for a journalist. In addition to deliberate distortions, inadvertent inaccuracis, and sometimes outright lies through many means both subtle and overt, its shallowness focuses on "what" happened, occasionaly "how" it happened, but never on "why" it happened. It has no depth, gives little background or context to create understanding. That clearly is not its object. In addition its interviews are horrible, often presented as a debate which it confuses with hard headed journalism. Often the interviewee has to correct the assumptions in the interviewer's question. BBC's news above all tries to tell its audience what to think instead of presenting them with all of the facts and letting them decide for themselves. It represents a culture which at the heart of it is neither fair nor democratic. And like all tyrannies, it has at least a near monopoly on informational power. Left to become only one more competitive media entity without government subsidies, it would probably either quickly change or go bankrupt.
The key word is descending. Americans are not Europeans. Our worlds began diverging centuries ago, even before the Revolution and they have been moving apart ever since. And not only are our cultures and most basic views of life different, even our demographics will be shifting in the next few decades away from European ancestry. It won't matter. Demographers tell us the cuture will continue to evolve more or less the way it would have had it still been largely of European descent. This is because of the powerful assimilation process, something pretty much absent in Europe. Just listen to BBC's and others reports of large immigrant and even native born disaffected populations in Britain such as Moslems.
The fault of the Iraq war if you were the least bit objective about it was Iraq and only Iraq. Period. I'm not going to try to rehash it again here to argue your lies and prejudices. If there is war with Iran, it will be squarely Iran's fault. Period.
I would not characterize what you were taught in Europe as being an education, I'd call it being indoctrinated with propaganda. Where does the truth lie? Find a real history book, read it, and see.
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The very fact that many of Hillary's supporters would actually vote for McCain goes to show that she is no different than the neocon republicans who now run the USA
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Now in addition to endless binge drinking drunks vomiting in the streets as reported here (I couldn't get indepenent confirmation of this from Americans I know who have been there recently) another good reason not to visit the UcK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2008/08/and_now_a_word_from_hugh_sykes.shtml
Ripoff cabbies and nasty bus drivers who wouldn't have the decency to tell you where to make a connection to a train to get into London from the airport. Clearly Brits don't want to be burdened by tourists or their money...well they'd take the money if they don't have to do anything or be civil to get it. I'll never go there.
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Hi, can anyone tell me the name of the Muslim girl in the report last night about Clinton supporters and their switch to Obama. The segment was shown around 2.35 this morning. (Tuesday)
Thanks
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Hillary's powerful and classy speech accomplished two things, it energized the party faithful and it positioned her for the big job in 2012, regardless of who wins in November.
Hillary understands that no matter who winsthis election the economic and fiscal problems we face today are insurmountable, and the winner this November will most likely be a one term President. Her message was sincere, and I don't doubt she is committed to Obama's election, but her focus is on 2012 and the tone, substance and class of this speech will not be forgotten by her followers and many Independents.
As for what hard line Republicans think of the speech - or her - who cares they can always seek advice from the nucular President.
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Cyril,
Precisely! But nothing stands in the way of entrenched bigotry ;-((Maybe he's a Taoist
Salaam, etc.
ed
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# 287 MarcusaureliusII
Unfortunately you fall into the very trap you are complaining of, presenting intemperate opinion as fact.
I will leave aside your criticisms of the BBC as they are well able to defend themselves and others can decide whether your "take" on their journalism is fair.
But your next paragraph is riddled with factual inaccuracies and prejudices presented as fact.
"Americans are not Europeans" What does that mean? If you mean citizens of the USA, not really true. Most are descended from Europeans, the original inhabitants having been wiped out or put on reservations as part of the land grab of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. If you mean other Americans in Mexico and further south, not sure what you're arguing.
"even our demographics will be shifting in the next few decades away from European ancestry" Do you mean there will be more people of Asia ancestry in the USA than before? Irrelveant and the same is even more true of Europe.
"the powerful assimilation process, something pretty much absent in Europe" Do you know anything about history? The whole history of Europe since before the Common Era has been one of assimilation and still is - with people moving there from Asia, Africa, Turkey, South America, everywhere in fact and being assimilated over a generation or two. The same is likely to happen with militant Islam, although we won't know for perhaps 30-40 years.
"The fault of the Iraq war if you were the least bit objective about it was Iraq and only Iraq." Your opinion, nothing more, and one shared by few "objective" commentators. Maybe it's partly or largely Saddam's fault that the USA invaded their sovereign territory, with the support or acquiescence of the UK and others, but certainly not that of the people of Iraq. There were no WMD and Iraq was not involved with al-Quaida.
"If there is war with Iran, it will be squarely Iran's fault. Period." Egregious and unsupported untruth. How will it be Iran's fault if the USA or Israel nuke it or even start a conventional war? Is refusing to be a client state, daring to pursue their own interests and perhaps developing the same weapons the USA and Israel have threated to use on them grounds for aggression?
"I would not characterize what you were taught in Europe as being an education, I'd call it being indoctrinated with propaganda. Where does the truth lie? Find a real history book, read it, and see." So patronisiing, contemptuous and wrong as to be beneath further comment.
As my old history teacher would have said:
"1/10, must try harder and study more before putting pen to paper."
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MKEGUSA,
Well said. Seconded.
Slainte!
ed
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Badger,
Your talent is wasted.
;-)
ed
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#289
Because New York cabbies and bus drivers are soooo nice.
You don't need to connect to take a train into London from any of the major airports. 3 have a dedicated high speed rail link, City has the DLR as noted. Only an idiot would take a 100 pound cab from Heathrow to town, when there is a high speed dedicated rail link for 15 quid. Hugh is clearly not a Londoner.
Really Malarcus, if you don't want to travel and broaden your horizons, don't. But don't judge a nation based on one persons opinion of what a bus driver may have said said (BTW, stupid to take a bus t Stratfordfrom City airport, even if the DLR was closed. A simple look at one of the maps of London Transport routes at the bus stop or on the bus would tell you to change at Canning Town for the Jubilee line. Much quicker). Especially an opinion on a blog.
If we did that on this blog we'd think the entire country was populated by grumpy, mean, ignorant, xenophobic old electricians. And that just isn't so, most of us are quite nice.
London Sam
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In reply to #281, voltaire23:
"The two party system can be debated in the same way as Coca Cola and Pepsi."
Exactly. And if you imbibe too much. it rots your teeth and you get an upset stomach.
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To anyone who does not know, "Yo Blair" comes from a BBC "comedy" program in which a "comedian" impersonates GW Bush and another imitates Tony Blair.
Given that GW Bush's knowledge of BBC comedy shows is probably quite slight (in recent times it would be the wise choice), that reference was quite probably given to him by Tony Blair, so it was an "in" joke.
British party conferences are generally staggeringly boring affairs with the possible exception of the Lib Dems wherein the party faithful continually do their best to embarrass their leadership.
For the two leading parties (mostly Labour), their conferences used to be about policy discussion but that got too difficult because the party kept disagreeing with the leadership.
Now they have taken from the American model the ringing endorsements of various aspects (and people) of the party but left out those features which make that process remotely interesting.
The result is something like the congress of the Chinese communist party without the charisma.
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The Democrats need to sell their product and do that pretty fast. McCain camp is making the Democrats look bad and he is doing a terrific job. Democrats can easily win this election as well as loose it. They need to tell people what their policies are. Enough with the sentiments.If they continue with this trend of powerful speeches am afraid they are going to lose these elections.
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MAII what a miserable excuse for a comeback, but still amusing. I think other posters have already pointed out your various flaws but in just case anything was missed....
I think we're quite happy here to keep our politicians 'boring', if that's how they want to behave. Some certainly aren't/weren't (Tony Benn, Anne Widdecombe, Boris Johnson, Mo Mowlem) but they're not celebrities, thank you.
I check this blog periodically in the hope of other new about the US. I'm also highly amused (though worried in case they are representative) by your 'out there' views. Despite my BBC indoctrination I feel for once I can disagree with Auntie and ask for a more varied view of your country.
Aha the Empire thing again! Do you actually work for the BBC?
Can you give me an example of a real history book, and for the total idiots like me, one which I might have thought to be real but isn't?
Cheers Marcus, you old chum.
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Sam,
He's far too intelligent for that. ;-)Hugh is simply one of the very best of the BBC's roving reporters. I recommend any of his contributions.
Hugh Sykes Fan ed
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In my modest opinion, our decision when we vote in November will not be influenced by Michelle's or Hillary's oratory or the outfits they wear, it will be determined by our acceptance or rejection of cultural diversity and by our opinion regarding individual Vs collective responsibility as tools to solve the problems we are facing. Those that believe that market forces are enough to solve our fiscal, economic, industrial and social woes will vote for McCain; those that believe the government has a role and responsibility in solving our fiscal, healthcare, education, infrastructure, and industrial problems will vote for Obama. The big unknown is the extent of our convictions regarding "cultural diversity".
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Hugh Sykes, Best of the BBC
In the Middle East
In Israel
On the move
A man with a true "common touch"
Respect!
ed
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ref #302
I agree about the outfits, clinton has been in a no win situation on that since the beggining.
But I would classify as, if you believe in higher taxes and the govt should have a bigger role in the economy, EU type of foriegn policy: Obama.
If you believe lower taxes and encouraging all forms of energy and strong foriegn policy you vote for McCain
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Four More Months!
;-)
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#259 - Oscar Wilde was Irish. And we are watching because, like it or not, the results will affect us too. Negatively or positively, that remains to be seen.
#263 - LOL! We're not jealous at all. As someone else pointed out earlier, we have pomp and circumstance to keep us happy. But we (in the main) hate politicians, of all creeds and kinds. Yours are different from ours on the surface, but underneath it all, we know they're all worthy of contempt. And that's why we watch. Well that, and the fact that it's sometimes like watching a re-run of The Colbys. All we need is for the traditinal catfight, say between Mrs Obama and a random female reporter?
I rather enjoyed Hillary's speech last night. Did exactly what it said on the tin.
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Ed
Casey won in Pennsylvania because his family is well known there. He on his own probably would have been defeated. ( Santorum was the representative before Casey and Santorum was one of the most right wing senators in the Senate)
To me it doesn't look good. McCain is pulling ahead in the Gallup polls and I just think Americans are incredibly stupid to want 4 more years of Bush's policies...but McCain might win.
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ref #307
McCain is not 4 more years of Bush. Just because that is a DNC talking point does not make it true.
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To this day, neither Obama nor McCain have been forthcoming as to what their policies truly are.
Both men have families, and how they treat them are completely different. Are we supposed to base our decision on how "intelligent" or "soft-spoken" either of the wives are? NO!! Their actions with their policies and how they plan to treat and respect their position as the future and possible President of the United States of America is how we are supposed to determine who we want to lead the country.
Again, so far, neither man has been very informative and the round-robin talking is pathetic.
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Serious food for thought
Is it because I is Black?Yup!! ;-((
ed
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Ed #292
Once agian your reach in knowlege of the many web sites to visit amazes me. The lead in to the 'Tao' page is ,.. interesting thoug similar to what I've read before, but the link home, takes you to:
North Glen, now this is a different place, homey and small, a smile in knowing those who put it together years ago. A farmer, his wife and a 1956 typerwriter.
No salesman there.
namaste ()
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#301, #303
Hi Ed
Agree'd.
None of which means he can read a tube map.
Sam
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You're probably right. It's worse than that, because, unbelievable as it sounds, he's actually stupider and more corruptible than Shrub. At least the Bushes had their own machine, but McCain has had to accept the help of a set of completely amoral lobbyists who bailed him out when his campaign was on the floor and financially bankrupt (it was always morally so).I almost feel sorry for him.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Bethpa #307
As an American, I understand the short comings of the Bush president. He doesn't communicate well,... and he's,.. lowered taxes, god knows I need more Taxes.
He left me to try to suceed or fail, you know I want my Government to give me only Success, and if I do succeed, you know I want the Goverment to take it away from me.
Only because I failed to pay another tax, file a form, or fail to be a minority (though technically be white in Texas is) for lucritive Government contracts.
Oh, and Republican officials now make the 'big' money and have the 'power'. Thats wrong, because Democrat Officials need to make the 'big' money and have th 'power.'
difference for the people
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robzaba:
"Exactly the type of comment I feared from an American!! I am watching because we (in the rest of the world) are interested in the world! Surprised?! Not like you obviously, and your 'The World in 60 Seconds' news programmes!!
So, I repeat, politics is about issues, policies, debate, not this trifling gush.
Oh dear me, my high level of consciousness has made me go all giddy... :)"
Giddy isn't the word. Pointless would be closer to the mark. Or maybe ridiculous.
It's interesting to read this ludicrous attempt to dress up your insults in high-minded "citizen of the world" claptrap.
You sound like a provincial matron trying to dazzle her guests at a dowdy dinner party with mother-eaten anti-American abuse.
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SashaWitch,
To this day, any number of numb-witted folk have made this kind of remark, when Obama's detailed policies and plans are freely available hereMost operating systems, including Windoze have utilities which can read the documents out loud if you have difficulty.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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mike did you know Big chips himself when in prison camp gave details of air raids resulting in the deaths of 50 american service personal.Or so some have said, after he finished his tea with the ptrison guards he used to help in the torture of the other prisoners,some have said.
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To this day, many numb-witted folk have been mislead by Ed #316. :)
McCains detailed plans and policies are detailed here
Hey ed, how do I get them to read out loud,... please.
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189 yes and really ed that was a bit of a joke right?
they used to say blacks cannot swim because they are not seen at the olympics in the swimming heats.
Then you see a bunch of kids swimming in the sea off where ever and it becomes apparent that they can swim.
But that they were not let into the swimming pools for so many years here in the states might have affected their swimming skills.
Sorry but it is real boring argueing with the morons about hillary being likable let alone electable and Big Chip losing his Big chip.
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217. At 10:28pm on 26 Aug 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #205
I think you are falling into the Axelrod trap. Any who criticizes the Obamas is a bigot or racists.
I don't like her becuase she has a major sense of an entitlement and has been given a pretty easy ride.
what like all black people.
Thats what you think. you racist.
Evidence of his racism is the link to mandela he drew earlier
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266, guns.
Staphy doesn't show any artistic ability. Maybe he was a flawed experiment.
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A Spanner in the works
I think the American term is a "monkeywrench in the bottleworks"....Happy Trails
ed
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210 marygrav.
perfect, no dare I say it brilliant
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Doug,
In Ubuntu, it's under "accessibility". I'll have to log into windoze to be sure, but try /start/accessories, and look for 'accessibility' or somesuch... I think you can choose what sort of voice does the reading. Whichever you choose, it'll probably dodge and weave and flub less than McCain't himself.
;-)
ed
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218 there is another difference.
strangely the level of hatred herd from the white racists of all parties seems to be higher than that of those that suffered , the blacks.
strange though this comment could by some be considered racist.
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Tell you what I want to hear from Obama.
That on being elected, proceedings will start against President Bush for taking America into an illegal war.
That the full details of the converstaions which took place a year before the war with PM Blair will be released.
That immediately Guantanamo Bay will be closed and all the 'prisoners' will be either released, tried in American Courts or returned to where they came from.
That an immediate inquiry will be started, jointly with the UK to investigate extra-ordinary rendition.
That all figures relating to the number of Iraqis detained or arrested will be released, including the numbers handed over to the Iraqi authorities, and what has subsequently happened to them.
That all financial details will be released as to the amounts of money handed over to militia groups, how much and to whom.
I quote from Peter Kropotkin, Words of a Rebel :-
'Do not let anyone tell you that we are only a tiny handful, too weak ever to attain the grand objective at which we aim.. All we who suffer and who are outraged, we are an immense crowd; we are an ocean in which all could be submerged. As soon as we have the will, a moment would be enough for justice to be done'.
Let America have justice, let Britain have justice, let the world have some justice for the crimes committed in our names.
Bush and Blair have brought shame on their respective countries, they must not be allowed to escape; justice for the dead, the maimed, the destitute, some of us will never forgive, if you promise us nothing else Obama, promise us justice.
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The one who will change Washington isn't playing partisan politics. I'm not talking 'hope for change', I'm talking real change, this guy has worked with "Both" parties 'for' the United States, voted for, with and against GW on multiple occassions, JM voted for his country, not his Party line.
Honestly, as a Republican party member, he was not my first, nor even forth choice for this position, his politics are more Liberal on many issues, Education, healthcare and the economy.
Yeah, on one hand they knock him down for being rich, and then they say he knows nothing of the economy. Rich people know money, and know where to get the answers for that which troubles them.
Bid whoop! The cammander in Chief is a position of leadership, compromise and connections. McCains connections are far and wide, accross the globe and at home, he is respected for his even politics with proven strengths with the willingness to listen to others.
The mantra of "Obama=Change" is odd, just following (N)Obamas voting record, personal history and VP choice, there is doubt in his character considering his choices of friends, aquaintainces and business partners.
Odd how they don't exist to him 'now', but have since his adulthood and career started. Will they be his 'friendly advisors', like GW's oil families 'friendly' cabinet.
Will (N)Obama be meeting the 'friends' at 'his' camp David or in the Lincoln Room for insight and "trusted" advice?
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That's why in one breath they tell us they invented us and in the next they tell us how awful we are.
I suspect your parents felt that way about you marcus but it does not make them wrong in any way.
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246 he ran as VP did he not?
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#314
Sorry, Doug- I went to the site but didn't see any policies for McCain. Could you list them here?
___________________________
On the previous thread there was some discussion about "What's the matter with Arkansas?", where people are losing their farms, homes and jobs but still are convinced that they must vote Republican.
Could you explain why you feel that way?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re. No. 316
Well said Ed. Good of you to inform SashaWitch of the utilities available to solve her problem.
But your kind gesture will probably be to no avail
since it is highly probable that she is a paid-up member of Mrs Clinton's "Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants-Suits", dumb and blind and deaf
to anything that might not be to the advantage of her beloved leader
Cheers
Pam
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250 point to you MikeILL
communists would nationalise all industry and the health care system.Road building, infrastructure, farming etc.
so Obama is not a communist as the person you try to take to task points out.
So GW is a nazi.
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Ah, "Money". Money is the root of all evil and yet everyone wants it. Thus, money makes you evil. I say this in response to the house issue. Ask my Dad, and he'd have to check his investments and holding company. Do condos count, another building may have been done while he was on vacation. Granted, he could of answered different, his wifes and his holdings are public record. Democrats like to think within the box of talking points and this is just one of them. About the mantra of "Obama=Change" I often think people forget what a mantra is: Mantra
A sacred verbal formula repeated in prayer, meditation, or incantation, such as an invocation of a god, a magic spell, or a syllable or portion of scripture containing mystical potentialities.
Oh messiah (N)Obama, please bring change, the 'good' kind to my country, we'll define that later. Read this [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] for a look at real change you may not want.
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272 but we have to be careful which engineers we would have design such a system
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275 thats because the sand keeps trickling down in front of the book.
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281 the coke pepsi thing is serious stuff, to say there is NO difference is blatently wrong:) after all a jack and coke does not taste the same as a jack and pepsi. or so I have been told by even pepsi drinking scum.)
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Doug,
McCain's time, if there ever was one, was 2000, but it came and went. I've never been a fan of his, but even those who love him must be able to see he's losing it. Or is the denial so deep and the love so unconditional that you can't?
Those of us who have witnessed the slow (or sudden) decline in a loved one will know what I'm saying, but for the rest: He's losing it!
Peace ()
ed
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mkegusa WHO LET YOU IN.
that was far to well reasoned and well thought out to be posted here.
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Thanks Pam. I guess there are some thin skins out there (my 331 is referred for tongue-in-cheek "racism", no doubt)
Oh, well, Peace to all,
ed
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300 the word chum seems particularly appropriate in that context.
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TAG I hope you get your wish 326
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Here's the ad I want to see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM
followed by come on america don't make GW look smart by voting for mc cain.
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Losing it? Or already lost it?
The Double-talk Express
and as for consistent inconsistency, he's hard to beat.
John McCain Vs John McCain
If this is what America elects, with its eyes wide open, then that's what America deserves, but what did the rest of us do to deserve it? ;-((
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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266, guns.
It's sad to think that even his chimp side was defective. We could send him for psychological testing to know more about him, but the results might scare me.
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jacksforge (#337), you're certainly right about Coke vs. Pepsi, but what I don't understand is why anyone would put Coke in a Tennessee whiskey.
Ed I, what your neighbors put in their (as called by Alistair Cooke) "wines of Scotland"? Mine is always "neat."
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289, staphylococcus aureus.
How thoughtful of you to offer never to visit Britain. I think they should give you an award of some kind.
Oops! I forgot. If you went you would have to be quarantined for six months, so it's just as well you stay here (well, not for us, but...).
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Gary . some I know would say BECAUSE IT IS A TENNESSEE WHISKY.
But not me sorry I don't like any whisky.
now i think about that state I remember a guy campaigning on the issue of"I will stop the govorment flying over with their Heliocopters and taking your crops away"
I would have voted for him probably.
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May be of intrest, but there again...
The head ,right arm and lower legs of a 15ft statue of the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius have been uncovered by archaeologists in Sagalassos,southern Turkey.The town was destroyed by an earthquake between AD540 and AD620.
The statue was located in the frigidarium, the coldest room in the Roman baths.
MarcusAurelius ruled from AD161 to AD180
and won fame for his standing as a Stoic philosopher as well as for his wise governance.Hmmm........
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#314
Doug- I didn't see any policies for McCain. Could you list them here?
___________________________
Does this apply to you, too?
"What's the matter with Arkansas?", where people are losing their farms, homes and jobs but still are convinced that they must vote Republican.
I know that you say things are not so prosperous for you, now, too.
Yet, you claim to be a dedicated Republican.
Could you explain why you feel that way?
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349, ukwales.
This is a good time to sue staphylococcus aureus for identiy theft.
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325, Jack. I think you are not listening carefully.
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marbles I did but what I meant was MY comment could be taken as racist.
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badgercourage #293
""Americans are not Europeans" what does that mean?"
Now what do you suppose I could have meant by that? I know our languages are not exactly the same but I think it's pretty clear. We do not have the same culture, the same political systems, the same values, the same view of life, the same perspective. In short we have far less in common than many Europeans would like to think we do. Most of all, many of us no longer have any empathy for Europeans or their problems most of which are self inflicted.
"Most (Americans) are descended from Europeans."
Maybe but scientists tell us all humans are descended from amoebae. I'm not an amoeba, are you? As species evolve in different directions, they diverge. America and Europe have been diverging for well over 200 years now and no longer resemble each other. My ancestors were Europeans but if whatever branches that reach back that far still have survivors in Europe, they mean nothing to me. If they ever somehow found me, I'm sure after saying hello, I'm your long lost relative it would only be a matter of time before they asked for money or help with a visa to get to the United States. No thanks, I'm glad not to know them.
You claim that people who arrive in Europe from different countries, different parts of the world can be fully assimilated? Then how do you explain the vast cultural underclasses all over Europe such as Moslems, Roma, orientals, Africans, who are never part of the larger society no matter how many generations they've lived there. Turks can never become Germans. North Africans can't get jobs in France. And many Moslems in Britain consider themselves Moslems first and Brits second or not at all. They feel kinship with Pakistan, not loyalty to the British Crown. No, Europe is not and never will be a cultural melting pot in the way the US is. Often, it won't even enforce its laws when crimes are committed against those not of the mainstream culture.
Your analysis of Iraq flies in the face of recent historical facts. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, was defeated, arranged for a cease fire, and violated the terms of it countless times. There were no more UN resolutions necessary to justify the invasion. The invasion was legal under the terms of the original war in 1991 and the violations of the terms of the cease fire.
Why will invasion of Iran be Iran's fault? Because the purpose of the nuclear non proliferation treaty is to provide the only possible mechanism to assure those nations which might otherwise feel threatened by development of nuclear technology in another country that they can be assured it isn't happening. The reality of nuclear weapons is that their effect is so sudden, so devastating, and so threatening to the survival of a nation that the only alternative is a pre-emptive strike to thwart that development. If the only legitimate purpose of international law is to provide security without war, then Iran has breached that point and a pre-emptive strike against it is entirely justified. This trumps all other so called international laws.
"So patronizing, contemptuous, and wrong as to be beneath further comment."
How funny after you commented on my posting point by point? I will admit it was contemptuous as is my opinion of Europe. Wrong? Hardly.
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ST69 #296
I didn't make up any of the stuff about drunks vomiting in the streets after alcoholic binges or the way tourists are treated by Londoners. This came straight off of BBC. Argue with them, not me. Or don't you believe what they say any more than I do? I told you I could not verify the story about the drunks. Maybe my aquaintences who travel to Britain visit the wrong parts of town. I've traveled plenty in my lifetime. I have no more desire to. Unfortunately, circumstances will probably dictate that I will have little choice and will have many more trips ahead of me. Hopefully, most of them will be within the United States where I feel at home.
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353, Jack.
You never sound racist to me.
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Chill out a little Marcus! Destress, take some pressure of that well travelled body of yours. Your skewed and inaccuarate comments do you a dis-service, some of your other postings actually appear reasoned and measured.
Any news on which history books we should be reading? Presumably ones that explain why punishing Saddam suddenly became a pressing issue so long after his breaches began? Maybe it was so Bush could get Blair on board? Oh no, that can't be it, we know how unimportant the UK is and how no one in USA cares about what we think.
Good night!
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Now we know that PM Putin has confirmed that which we already had an idea about. We, and the Americans have been training all sorts of overseas forces to fight, effectively on our behalf.
Now, you may say don't be so anti=British, anti-American and don't keep believing what those terrible Russians say but is that not the sad thing about life today, we are the enemy.
We have, as Prince Harry has worn the hat, been doing bad things to bad people. Yes we have, and it is not good. Only not all the people were the bad ones, just people living in their own country.
Why should the Russians not have their own equivalent of the Monroe doctrine. How dare we threaten, because that is what we are doing, a sovereign foreign state, oh I forgot we invaded Iraq to bring about regime change.
We are doing some terrible deeds in Afghanistan, killing completely innocent people. Americans are on trial for murdering Iraqis. There is no justification for murder. We are an occupying force in both these countries, we are the enemy, they are freedom fighters. Time to go, and sooner rather later.
If the Democrats think that they can change things then I think they are in for a shock, they are up to their necks and their retreat, for that is what it will be, will be ignominious. Mind you they will be leaving behind a substantial force of contractors, mercenaries to you and me, who will be no different to trained killers. This is not acceptable.
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TAG,
Right On! You tell 'em! I second all that you say.
Peace to all,
ed
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paulcrossleyII #357
Perhaps if you want to understand the war in Iraq and Afghanistan you could start by reading the archives of the New York Times of that era. This is the closest to a contemporary history book you will find that is not skewed by current politics. It will explain why the invasion had to occur when it did in case you have already forgotten. It will take the distance of time before there will be many objective dispassionate analyses worth reading since the topics are so contemporary. Much critical information is still classified too.
If you want to read a book about American history, start with an American High School textbook for an overview and work your way up to much deeper levels of understanding. Be sure that they are written by Americans for Americans. Pick a High School textbook that is used in a large American Cosmopolitan city like New York City. Try to find one at least 20 years old before they had to be politically correct. Although America's history is relatively short, a mere 400 years since Europeans first settled here, there are a great number of crucial events to be understood to assess the American nation and culture. I'm not familiar with any of the current best sellers, check Amazon.com for some recommendations. Or visit a local public library. I'm not going to do your homework for you. BTW, don't waste your time reading anything written about America by non Americans. They never had a clue even if they weren't politically biased and they still don't. Prime evidence....BBC.
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#360
Why not go to the Official Records.
It is quite possible to refer directly to the papers relating to the Foreign Relations of The United States (FRUS) they can be found on the usual search engines. The Truth is Out There
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#360
Now if you are really boring then may I humbly suggest that you look up the Official Records of the Great War :
Just do a search on Great War Document Archive
Just look and see how wars can be started when there was definitely no intention of going to war! Of course it wasn't planned. There are some serious nutters out there.
Oh, and who do think was the first country to mobilise, try Britain after Churchill didn't disperse the RN to base after a review, convenient that.
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However anyone spins it, the fact is that not only was President Bush in favor of the invasion in 2003, so were both Houses of Congress and the overwhelming majority of the American people. While you may claim that the people were duped by the media, the Congress had access to exactly the same intelligence information that the President had. The Director of the CIA told President Bush that Saddam Hussein having WMDs was a "slam dunk." Putin warned America and Bush publicly that his own intelligence agencies said Iraq was planning an attack on the US on American soil. If all of these people had been right, the President had done nothing, and the worst had happened, he'd have been impeached or assassinated. Both Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton supported the invasion. It is impossible to know what Barack Obama would have really done if he'd have been in Congress. His words about it now are meaningless because he did not have the responsibility, he was just an observer like the rest of the public.
The invasion had to occur by March 2003 because the weather was changing and would have become much too hot for the coallition of the willing to fight in Chemical Weapons protective gear as they expected they'd have to any later. Had they not invaded, the next chance would have been months later at which point the US might have pulled out of the region because of the cost of keeping itself there on idle. That is what Hussein and his European supporters were hoping for. Their hopes wre dashed when the US made the correct decsion to invade despite not having one more unnecessarily redundant UN resolution. Case closed.
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#314 Doug Texan
How much money have you gotten because of the Bush presidency? I'd like to know what it was worth to you to watch your nation being crippled with debt.
Not everyone wants money..that is a Republican view of the world that doesn't work...for many people. Thats part of why the US is unable to change the minds of some Iraqis..and Turks....not everyone is motivated by money...
And the correct quote is "the love of money is the root of all evil"
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#363
Not case closed I'm afraid. It is what has happened after the illegal invasion. It is about extra-orinary rendition. It is about not protecting the local population form attacks. It is about the Americans in particular being trigger happy. It is about war crimes. The case is not closed until the perpetrators of the crimes of waging a war of aggression against a sovereign state, of regime change, that the leaders of the 'free world' will eventually have to be tried for their crimes.
Read John Rawls, the soldiers are complicit in the atrocities, you cannot plead that you were following orders as a defence against your guilt. The President is guilty, PM Blair is guilty, and we are all guilty. History will not be kind to either of these men, or their generals who followed orders. They should have resisted.
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Marcus
Lets have an impeachment of Cheney and Bush and look into the details of how the war was begun and the information that was available.
Because there are serious questions that indicate that war was fought for the oil in Iraq, fought to benefit corporations that need cheap oil to keep their profits.
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Dear Marcus,
I may be wrong but you seem to hate so many things.
Europe/UK is like a red rag to a bull to you.
The US seems to be some kind of utopia according to you, with the world trying to get in.
I love New England in the fall..
I love Florida theme parks,they do it so well.
I love California,the coast road from LA to San Fransisco.
I love the grand Canyon,mojave desert,hoover dam etc.
But,I would never swap with my native Wales.OK, so it's not got the lofty granduer of some US places, but MT. Snowdon in North Wales is every bit as beautiful as Mt Washington.
Her Majesty owns all the beaches and no-where is off limits on them.Everyone is free to roam.
My home county, Pembrokeshire, has 180 mile coast path.Totally world class for sea/landscape,with young girls/women walking it on their own,without fear...
I will not defend the young folk who can't hold their drink, but I dare say some places in the US are best avoided at 'shut tap'.
I love my nation as much as you love yours but would not be as rude as you are with US faults..
As my Mum used to say,"If you have not got anything nice or constructive to say, keep your mouth shut"
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I wonder Justin if you have any understanding of how alienating a sentence like this is:
"it doesn't settle the matters of perceived lack of patriotism and oddness and effeteness (if that is a word) - it merely begins the fight back against them."
Blacks have been in America since before it was a nation and to call someone lacking in patriotism is insulting...There are blacks in America who are very angry at the treatment they have received...even as they have fought in wars and helped build America.
"perceived lack of patriotism" hah..a president wages a war for profits and uses the American military and I suppose he is patriotic?
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#355
But Marky,
Firstly, Bourbon Street, any night is worse than the worst UK high streets. We have drunks too. Mebbe your acquaintances were the drunks, and they were the problem? They seem to have been in the wrong parts of town.
I don't doubt the incident happened, the BBC has high standards of reporting.
All I am saying is that a 4 word conversation with a blue collar worker is hardly a rational basis for judging an entire civilization.
Otherwise our Anglo cousins could read this blog and think that the US is populated by pig ignorant, crotchety, lonely, self obsessed, delusional old geezers. Who think they are smarter than everyone else Especially young people and Europeans. But aren't.
Sam
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TAG, the soldiers are always complicit in atrocities of war. Who do you think fights wars? There are always atrocities committed on both sides. That's the way war is. I don't hear you complaining about the atrocities committed by the other side. Why? Because you hope they will win. If the US pulls out and they do, it will be more very bad news for Europe. The EU is a lot closer to the failed states of the middle east which are the wellsprings of terrorism than the US is. Extraordinary renditions, GITMO, waterboarding, are all parts of war. Live with it, it isn't going away. Now suppose someone had to be waterboarded to avert the next 7-7 in the undeground when your family was going to be in it? What would your opinion be then? Let's wait until after the next successful attack on Britain to find out. What about it Spain? Ready for another Madrid train bombing or would you twist the arms of the terrorists to open up the way your ancestors tortured people in the Spanish Inquisition? A proud history if I must say so myself. Been to a good bullfight lately? I went to one, it made me sick. A proud culture. I know, I just don't understand the true cultural meaning of it.
ukawailee, I'm not talking about purple mountains majesty, I'm talking about the kind of civilizations we have. If the geographies were reversed, I'd still think the same. The facts about the people are what matter. I do not like most of the Europeans I've met in my life.
ST68 1/2
"Otherwise our Anglo cousins could read this blog and think that the US is populated by pig ignorant, crotchety, lonely, self obsessed, delusional old geezers. Who think they are smarter than everyone else Especially young people and Europeans. But aren't."
Don't you get it? They already do and always have. Do you think they are right? Look at the mess they've made of everything they've ever touched. We're lucky to have escaped so far. Let's get out of NATO before they have the next big one and this time let's sit it out.
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Marsus Arsus,
Well, maybe they treat you that way. I find most Europeans treat me as though I am intelligent, thoughtful, witty, wealthy, fit, cultured and, lets face it, attractive.
Here's an idea, maybe 'they' treat us the way they find us? Hence our different experiences?
Sam
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ST68 1/2
Or maybe they're just patronizing towards you. The know a rube they can have some fun with when they see one. When you leave, the laughing probably goes on for hours.
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Arsey,
On the contrary, they beg me to stay. If you come back to posting on the recent boards instead of skulking out here in the darkness we can have a poll on who folks would rather have a beer with, you or me.
Smiley Sam
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Marcus, Just had a very pleasant chat with one of my US co-workers so I my views in the majority of your countrymen have been restored and I feel it's ok to repsond to your arrogant/incorrect views, or at least seek some more clarification from the old wise one.
Do US citizens require a special form of history book? Most US authors I have read don't specifically base their content so only US citizens can appreciate it. Maybe there's a sub-section of history books (presumably only on Amazon.com, not Amazon.co.uk) that I've missed out on. I'll check out the site though.
I seem to remember keeping pretty up to date with developments prior to Gulf War II (the long drawn out sequel). I seem to remember Colin Powell in some weird UN powerpoint presentation on WMD sites. I don't remember Russia being part of the coalition of the willing. I've recently been educated (by your good self) that the USA is not the sort of country to rely on intelligence from other countries, especially not it's enemies.
I'm guessing that most people who opposed the war would not have done so if they had been genuinely convinced that they were under a direct threat from Iraq. The fact is we weren't convinced at the time and are becoming less and less so. As you rightly point out(!) not everything is yet in the public domain, but based on what is, I'm sticking with my opinion that the war was at the very best a mistake, and at worst a cynical ploy to win votes and secure oil. You're welcome to your own views, however arrogantly and rudely you choose to express them.
Oh, well done on getting the bull fighting thing in again. I'm thinking of keeping a tally of your little pets: 1.Bull Fighting, 2.BBC is rubbish, I ignore it, 3.Empire Series on BBC, 4.Why I hate Europe, 5.How I've Never been to UK, 6.How I know all about UK, 7.How even though I don't care about Europe I devote a subtantial amount of time to commenting on BBC blogs, 8.My alternate history, 9. (a rather random one) Are you Being Served?.
Anyone want to bet on which will be top?
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strange thing about bull fighting, will someone in spain go to see who is going to these bull fights?
It is a big issue in the UK where we like to bash our european friends if we can.
And as such is closing down in much of spain.
But then who is still going to the bull fights.
It wouldn't be fat american tourists , possibly.
No others do go. even some brits but I guarantee they do not get the photo's out to show everyone.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53096-2004Jun18.html
Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq, Putin Says
By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 19, 2004; Page A11
Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday that his intelligence service had warned the Bush administration before the U.S. invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was planning attacks against U.S. targets both inside and outside the country.
Putin, who opposed Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq, did not go into detail about the information that was forwarded, and said Russia had no evidence that Hussein was involved in any attacks.
"After Sept. 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, the Russian special services, the intelligence service, received information that officials from Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests," Putin said, according to RIA Novosti, the Russian news agency. "American President George Bush had an opportunity to personally thank the head of one of the Russian special services for this information, which he regarded as very important," the Russian president told an interviewer while in Astana, capital of Kazakhstan.
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To quote HRH Jeremy Clarkson
'I'm off the Spanish. They stab cows'
Snigger Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
376: Very interesting, but you already said this. I was asking two questions that would seem to result from this.
The first is general: Why was Russia not in the coalition if it believed this?
The second is based on my understanding of your view(!) of the world: Why did US intelligence (being superlative in every way and not requiring external assistance) rely on an enemy source as a basis for begining a war?
But well done on not mentioning the Empire prog.
I'm Free!
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#373
No contest,
what would you like man....
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Marcus,
How can you be so unkind to the Nation that brought"marmite"in to the world...
My spoon is to big....
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I posted it because you didn't believe it.
Why didn't Russia join the coalitioni? Because it was making money by selling weapons to Saddam Hussein in contravention of the UN sanctions as was China, Germany, and France.
US intelligence could not penetrate Saddam Hussein's government. Its security was very tight and the penalty for being discovered to be a spy was death by torture for the spy and his family. Look at what happened to his brother in law.
The posting that was deleted was teh results of the vote in Congress which was from Wikipedia. It showed overwhelming support for the invasion by the US congress. This reflected the sentiments of the American people. Google it and look at it for yourself. It was about 80% in favor.
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paulcrossleyII paulcrossleyII paulcrossleyII
THE history book to read about America is:
A People's History of the United States: 1492 to Present
by Howard Zinn
for only US $ 11.37
(My husband tried to read it as he went to sleep at night ..but found it too upsetting.)
With this book you will get the view from the left that has been silenced in the mass media of America.
and there are chapters about Clinton and Bush
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Marcus is right 80% of the US backed awar with Iraq..but imo based upon lies being fed to them by the Bush administration.
And I was in the 20% that opposed the war..and thats when I found out what it was like to live in a repressive nation that lacked free speech.
I will never forget it. It has changed me forever.
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Marcus, I do believe that it was said. It happened. The comments were made. I just don't believe anyone really thought it to be true.
I Never doubted you.
But why would you believe such information when it came from someone selling weapons to the same people the info discredited? (in your eyes, correct me if i'm wrong, your enemies) Especially when they then didn't suppoort you publically.
It's not your fault that your government and mine got it wrong (maybe deliberately). I'm as bad as the next person for not knowing when to throw in the towel, but to continue to support bad decision after bad decision just because of this, makes no sense, and only makes it easier for them to make more bad decisions in your name.
Come on MAii, I'm trying to see the best in you,and occasionally you make some credibally intelligent posts!
Bathpa, assuming your post is true, I shall look it up. Sorry to be so cynical, but I think you will appreciate why I am so,
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I'm glad you saw that post Paul.
: )
this is the wiki info on the book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People%27s_History_of_the_United_States
short quote from wiki:
"In the book, Zinn seeks to present American history through the eyes of those rarely heard in mainstream histories. A People's History, though originally a dissident work, has become a major success and was a runner-up in 1980 for the National Book Award."
But it is extremely rare to see anything about Zinn in the mainstream media in the US. He is much loved by the left though and has led a very full life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn
To my mind it is the exclusion of minds like Zinn's from the public discourse that proves how the US news and media filter information given to the American public.
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382 funny about number of people into the war before it started,.
More non jewish americans were in favour of the war than jewish americans.
I believe10-15% lower approval for the war .
Better educated ,Yes.
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paul crossley II
maybe I misunderstood and you were writing about the polls of how many Americans supported the war in Iraq?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_on_invasion_of_Iraq
In May2003..79% thought the war was justified
but in general over time its true that it was a smaller percentage than 80% that supported the war...
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paulcrossley II
The President of Russia warned Bush.
The British including their dodgy dossier warned him.
His own director of the CIA appointed by his Democratic predecessor warned him.
And there was much more. For example, unable to account for chemical weapons Iraq was known to have had, Teriq Aziz told the UN inspectors that they had destroyed them without keeping records. Who would belive that?
President Bush and the intelligence community had been sharply criticized for allowing 9-11 to happen only a few months earlier becaue they didn't connect the dots to see the big picture. Well this time they connected the dots and the picture was clear. If it was the wrong picture, it was the picture Saddam Hussein wanted them to see. Under the circumstances, invading Iraq was the correct thing to do without the slightest doubt. That is why Congress agreed so strongly. They had access to all of the same information both available to the public and classified. Any other president would have done exactly the same. If you want to argue that the execution of the aftermath of the war was not handled well, I'll agree. Frankly, I think the US would have done much better to have attacked in the fall of 2002 without the British if it came to that. Blair was not Bush's poodle, it was the other way around. Bush waited for Blair giving Saddam Hussein time to hide his weapons if he had them. To this day we really don't know if he did.
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Reading an admittedly left wing history of the US as bethpa suggests would be the wrong path to learning about the US. It is a deliberately and unabashedly skewed view. One method of skewing a picture is to present only the part of the truth which fits your dogma. Another is to take facts out of the context of the time and circumstances it happened in and try to judge it by contemporary standards. What we do and think is right today may one day be looked on with horror. Values change. And yet another is to present unsupported theories or discredited analyses as facts. Reading material written for a purpose of advancing a political agenda is not the same as reading history, it's reading propaganda.
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Marcus, we all saw the warnings, it's just that a lot of us didn't believe it. The connections between Sept 11th and Iraq just didn't seem to be there. I don't recall seeing anything that suggested Iraq had weapons capable of attacking anywhere further away than Turkey, let alon UK, USA etc.
Of course governments have to take credible threats seriuously, but these didn't seem credible at all. It's at least good to see that you recognise the falliability of your government, though of course we're unlikely to ever agree on Iraq (given that most of what was said before the war has already been disproved).
POst 390 of course makes perfect sense. If I get chance to read the book I'll be sure to let you know if it falls into the description you give. Have you read it?
You of course realise that most of your postings also fit that description too (picking and choosing aspects of history to fit your dogma, skewing events etc), but you're perfectly entitled to do so so long as its only your opinion.
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paulcrossley II
The connection between 9-11 and Iraq was uncertain. There was some evidence of ties that ties could have grown stronger but Iraq was at the time a separate issue. What President Bush said about it was that he feared that a nexus would develop between terrorists and WMDs. An alliance between al Qaeda and Iraq would have been just such a nightmare. He said the world's worst weapons cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of the world's worst people. Bush said he wanted to prevent that from happening. I think there was somewhere in a speech a reference to an al Qaeda connection to Iraq, possibly made by Chaney that those who later became opposed to the war grasped on to to prove a false point about the the supposed purpose of the war. It is easy to forget the tension and fear that gripped America after 9-11 now that much of it seems to have dissipated and our population has been lulled back to sleep. Many dire threats to America still exist, threats the US ignored in the past or didn't deal with successfully. North Korea, blown by both Clinton and Bush, Iran the same, and al Qaeda are just some.
The vulnerability of the US is due to its openness and its size. It would have been relatively easy for al qaeda to import WMDs into the US at the time. Security has tightened considerably but not to as great a degree as many of us think necessary. In the past, the US has had a history of temporarily restricting freedom to protect its security. This is a rational action for rational people and it does not signal a descent into dictatorship.
Katrina was interesting. The vulnerability of the levees around Lake Pontchartrain had been known for over 40 years. The Army corps of engineers had warned about it many times. Governments at the local, state, and federal level had known about it for all that time and did nothing. There is plenty of blame to go around. At first after Katrina, New Orleans felt it had dodged the bullet but when the levees broke, all hell broke loose with it. The US Weather Bureau has warned for decades that killer hurricaines pose a serious threat to people and property in and around the gulf states and the east coast of Florida but they normally ingnore those warnings. I has warned that one day there will be a terrible disaster. President Bush suggested a voluntary evacuation on the previous Friday. Katrina hit on a Monday morning. Surveillance helicoptors and rescuers should have been on their way at daybreak on Tuesday. Instead the federal government waited until Thursday afternoon, about 60 hours. This was in part due to failures of FEMA and President Bush and his advisors but it was also due to failures of both the Democratic Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans who should have been demanding immediate action. There was plenty of blame to go around. As a result around 1000 people died and the Republican Party lost control of both houses of Congress by a slim margin. (Bush won the 2004 election which was in effect a referendum on Iraq.) Note the difference between Bush's failure to act for 60 hours and India's failure to act at all in a disaster possibly of comparable dimensions in Northern India right now. You don't see or hear much about it in the news. We may view India as a poor nation but it is in fact a rich and powerful nation with many resources at its command even if much of its population is impovrished.
President Bush's failings have been that he was weak, indecisive, and slow to react, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Noth Korea, Iran, and Katrina. Talk is cheap and almost invariably ineffective especially when dealing with dangerously aggressive people bent on world power. Neville Chamberlain and Britain learned that lesson 70 years ago, it's a lesson many forgot.
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391 but they could attack Israel.
is that why america got enbroiled in this war despite many attempts to say it is about OIL.
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MA India has reacted.
You just don't include that. You really should get out more.
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jf, Israel can defend itself. It could wipe out the entire middle east if it wants to. It could also take out much of Europe. Aren't you glad you don't live there anymore? Too bad you have to make lame excuses for not going back. Why not tell the truth that you just like it here and are much better off. BTW, did they run you out, is that why you left?
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395 man your desperate.
sure isreal can defend itself .
That why america should stop giving it so much dosh.
I have already said that several times.
Destroy europe, for what reason. there are millions of Jews living in europe.
explain how that helps the Jews.
I have a pet So I do not leave, most americans are not so offensive as you ,though many seem to be as stupid as you.
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Hahahahahaha
You call me stupid and then say that I am the one who is offensive. Don't you know how that makes you look jf?
Why should Israel wipe out Europe? Hmmm, how about over a thousand years of persecuting Jews by beating them, burning their homes, stealing their property, and murdering them for a start. Then how about their supporting the Palestinians in their desire to finish the job Hitler started as another reason. Want still another? How about because they deserve it. Besides, it will prevent them from having to suffer as the Islamic colony of Eurabia. Even the Archbishop of Canteberry said that adopting some aspects of Sharia Law in Britain is unavoidable. BBC reported it. That's just the tip of the iceberg, the start of something much bigger.
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MAII, I can't remember which way round it went at the time, but we were presented both with arguments of connections to Sept 11th and also that Iraq had it's own WMD (which as a nation it was prepared to use).
Few believed the Sept 11th connection and most pointed out that there were other nations (N. Korea etc) where there seemed to be stronger evidence for thinking a greater risk was presented.
After the war (began), on the contary to your supposition that we all started to disagree with it, the likes of Bush and Blair switched to saying that it was still a success due to regime change.
At which point a lot of people came up with a list of countries where regime change (if you agree with it) would seem to be a more pressing issue. Most of these countries either didn't have any oil or were seen as militarilly much harder targets. Coincidence?
While I can see some consistency in your view point (you believe your government then and you still do, you would appear to agree with implementing regime change in these other 'dangerous' countries thus carrying the Iraq policy forward despite extremly questionnable success), I hope you can see the logic in what a lot of people (perhaps the majority even in your own country) now feel.
Katrina (specifically river systems and human interaction with) is nearer to my own area of expertise. I remember being warned of the potential dangers more than ten years ago by a University lecturer. However large numbers of people do tend to live in dangerous places - take the Thames Estuary. It's about managing risk and at the very worst reposnding when the worst happens.
Looks like I missed one of your pet subjects on the list i previously compiled - that Archbishop of Cant's comments on Sharia Law. I'll add it on now. You did manage to get through 2 posts without the Empire progam coming up, though your hatred of Europe made a comeback.
So did you read the book mentioned earlier or not?
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"Marcus, we all saw the warnings, it's just that a lot of us didn't believe it."
Mr. Crossley, perhaps you missed it. Perhaps you forgot that only about a month after 9-11, the US was attacked with anthrax spores from an unknown attacker and several people died. Perhaps you don't know that the US reached a state of paranoia that put it on the brink of war. It is very dangerous to try to frighten the United States even with an empty threat. That may turn out to be what Saddam Hussein tried to do by making it seem that he had WMDs for all the games he played, pretending even if he didn't actually have them, to hide them. It's a fatal mistake. The US government will take any credible threat seriously and will err on the side of safety by knocking it out anyway it has to. Ultimately there is no international law, each nation is a law unto itself. Yes, the US should have and still should effect regime change by whatever means are necessary in North Korea and Iran. Many of us don't understand what it is waiting for, another 9-11 only much worse?
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Michelle Obama, connects with me and my feelings about the direction of the U.S. and the rest of the world...
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