Clinton's convention
A small plucky nation is snuffed out by a bullying neighbour. A neighbour who lost the fight but still has the ability to project power.
This is the deal in Obamaland with the announcement that the Convention is going to be all about HER and her concerns - her husband, his friends, their pets, their poems, their finances etc etc etc.
What has happened to his self-confidence?
This line from the joint press release surely cannot be true:
"'I am convinced that honoring Senator Clinton's historic campaign in this way will help us celebrate this defining moment in our history and bring the party together in a strong united fashion,' said Senator Barack Obama."
What position was he in when he uttered those words? Was he politically water-boarded? We need to know...
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What a wuss. He should have said nothing, stayed out of it, and put the entire onus on her supporters. I don't see any point in his joining in a dog-and-pony show.
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Maybe we are talking blackmail. Have the Clintons threatened to sink Obama's ship if he does not help restore their reputations (and shore up their machine)?
I put nothing past that pair.
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I have confidence inthe sagacity of Obama.
But, where does this quote come from:
From Justin Webb:
"A small plucky nation is snuffed out by a bullying neighbour. A neighbour who lost the fight but still has..."
What is going on here? There is a quote but there is no text!
Has Webb become wrapped up in the American flag?
Perhaps the BBC needs an objective correspondent?
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I agree with marbles. We don't really know enough about this - although I agree with Justin that superficially it has a sinister ring to it.
How much support will she get ? It would have been quite a lot back in May but the Clinton shenanigans since then must have left a very sour taste in the mouths of most the true Democrats who will be attending Denver..
If her support is low she may well live to regret this deal. And that's even more dangerous because she (or probably he) will go off on one again !
All we know to date is that Obama has been very well advised throughout his camapign and HRC very badly advised.
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Uh the link for that article is:
clintons_historic_bid_to_be_ho
Oops?
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XM (#3), you are missing the joke. He wanted you to think for a moment that he was writing about the conflict in South Ossetia, Georgia.
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This is not new, when Mike Dukakis won the nomination they had to give Jessie Jackson far more time than he deserved.
I believe it happened with Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan too
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He's just showing a better side than she is.
She said she would get behind him. and now she's got a knife she will.
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It will work if whatever the out come she says she will ced to Obama and admit that the few racists out there did effect the result in a way that helped her and that she wants no part in it.
wow she might even look good then.
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No doubt in my mind that Nancy Pelosi, who is the convention chairman, is calling the shots.
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.... and if he hadn't agreed to this, the HRC
crowd would have been out there saying that he's uppity, presumptuous and the rest. All grist to the McCain mill. So really he had no option and I understand that it is the norm - the losing candidate then hands over their votes to the winner (through gritted teeth ?).
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Please! Someone banish those two to Elba - Chelsea can have supervised visits on weekends.
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"A small plucky nation is snuffed out by a bullying neighbour."
Yeah, the Ossetians had it tough.
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Jim kieth well noticed.
:) :)
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10, Gary.
Although people like Pelosi and Dean must have had long consultations with Obama and offered valuable advice, it is Obama, as de facto head of the Democratic Party (and chief money man), that made the final decisions.
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I am curious to see how the Clinton saga plays out. Will they lose their power if Obama wins? Will they discredit themselves by subverting Obama if he wins? Will they successfully destroy Obama? Does Obama have a game plan?
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amm (#15), I don't know where you get the idea that Obama is the "de facto head of the Democratic Party" (whatever that is). He is the presumptive nominee for the office of President. Howard Dean is Chairman of the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi is chairman of the Democratic Convention.
Of course Obama, as an individual citizen of a free state, can refuse to go along with the party leaders, but that's no way to get ahead in politics.
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Successful politicians are pragmatists, and regardless of how anyone may feel about Obama's policies it is obvious that he is a very savvy politician.
Although many Hillary supporters have already switched their support to Obama, many remain undecided and some are downright antagonistic towards the Democratic nominee. Obama knows that and he has decided that giving Hillary her moment of glory during the Convention is a small price to pay if that's what it takes to unify the party.
Allowing campaign opponents to speak in a convention is not unprecedented, and I think it is an exaggeration to portray this development as a cloak and dagger conspiracy by revengeful opponents intent on undermining Obama's credibility or his chances to win in November. The opposite is probably true. He will emerge as a man confident in his abilities, generous, and willing to do what it takes to achieve his goals.
I look forward to Hillary's speech, but like most Democrats what I really want is to know more about Obama, his policies, and vision.
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17, Gary.
By your own comment that Obama "can refuse to go along with party leaders," you acknowledge that he is de facto head of the party.
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Hillary ( Hilla the Hun ) will be worse than Theresa. I remember watching the Democrat's convention ( I'm a Republican, or normal person) and when it was Theresa's turn to speak, she had 30 minutes to explain why her husband should be president and cheer him on. Instead, she spent 30 minutes talking about "Ter- eh- sah'. So Hilla will spend her time running for president in 2012 and very little to help her erstwhile ally. The only reason that I can see her helping at all is if she's given the second slot. Perhaps Mr. Obama is planning such a surprise and that's why the Clinton's have so much speaking time. If I were Karl Rove or Dick Morris, I would advise him to give them 5 minutes each during a melange of party leaders.
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Excuse me, Mr. Webb, but in this case the "small plucky nation" is actually the South Ossetians, caught against their will within the Georgian state. Read Lermontov from the 1830s on the intractable mutual animosity between the two. In this conflict, the "small plucky nation," under the deeplyregrettable stewardship of the ultranationalist Shaakashvili, overplayed its hand and found the Western response lacking.
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The stakes AKA commitments and promises to others are high and the Clinton''s "shoe in" candidacy has turned into a nightmare in that respect. Without the power, how are they going to pay everyone? And this is definitely a double office with double promises. The best strategy now is to control the convention and call for a vote for Hillary. Are the Obama people awake?
This convention promises to make history.. . .
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Have you seen his (Obama's) economy/environmentalism commercial that is being aired during the Olympics?
It wasn't bad, especially when compared with McCain's equivalent advertisement. At least in terms of the goals set out. The video used could end up not resonating with some of the people who were obviously a target audience: 'white', blue-collar workers looking for a job, or a higher paying one.
That futuristic vehicle (guessing) would look wimpy or even elitist--especially in conjunction with all the computers--to such people, and have shades of the 'arugula incident.' Car aficionados would be shocked at the hideousness of the car (or van?). Even to personally, who tend to consider vehicles merely as machines to get from point 'a' to point 'b', that thing looked as though they took a toaster and cut out some doors and lined the edges with red piping.
The actual points he made were decent, more so than McCain's. However, (opinion) the commercial could have been more effective if the presentation was not so off-target.
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#13 - oldnat
"A small plucky nation is snuffed out by a bullying neighbour."
Yeah, the Ossetians had it tough.
Did they hell. That plucky little nation had been scratching a quite decent living based on forged passports and documents, gun running into the Caucuses, drug trafficking out of the Caucuses and not much else. The Russians were just as fed up with it as the Georgians and planning joint action to do something about it. So the Ossetians wound everyone up and the Georgians fell for it hook line and sinker. The Russians responded by over reacting and we are where we are. And who comes out with any credit? No one, that's who.
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20, Peter.
I presume that her speach will be "Ode to Hillary."
However, I don't think she will have the second slot. That would put Bubba back in the White House because VP's spouses have access to it.
That would mean they would be privy to Obama's every move, all the better to destroy him.
If Obama is that dumb he does not deserve my vote.
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amm (#19), no I don't. We have a different view on this point and will just have to agree to disagree. My view is that when people have official titles ("chairman") or objective descriptions of their status ("presumptive nominee"), I use them. I see no point in inventing titles with loaded words ("head") in them, which is merely an attempt to avoid argument on the substantive question.
No doubt Obama has considerable influence in how things are to be done (he has already exercized it to some extent), but he is not "head" of anything except his own campaign at this point. Even a President is not the "head" of his party.
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"What position was he in when he uttered those words?"
Do you really need to ask?
Obama, or any Democrat should be trouncing the GOP nominee -- yet he is lucky when some weeks ago some polls showed him ahead by only the slimmest of margins.
Now that Russia has reminded Americans that the world is still very much a dangerous place, Obama is starting to realize he has already reached his zenith and needs to win over all those staunch Hillary supporters who would prefer McCain over Obama -- that's the position he is in Justin: losing
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Like Jason in the Friday the 13th movies, Hillary keeps coming back again and again to wreak terror on us all. Don't think this will end if and when Obama becomes president either. She'll continue to suck the oxygen out of him until she gets what she deems is rightly hers--the oval office.
Can't we just put her and all of her "followers" who refuse to accept defeat on an ice floe and push them out to sea? Please?
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Both Clinton's believe the sun revolves around them, so they have obviously threatened Obama to torpedo him unless he bows down to them at the convention. And of course they would like nothing better than for him to lose the election so Hillary can descend from the sky to save the party at the next election.
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Ref 21
You hit the nail on the head!
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#24 threnodio
I don't doubt for a moment what you say about the Ossetians. A people driven into mountain territory, living off crime and detested by their neighbours.
Like I said what's the difference between Ossetia and Kosovo?
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28 good idea i hear the ice flows are heading this way but you better get them there before their all gone.
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HEY CLINTONITES DO YOU SEE YET? SHE'S CRAZY
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AND SO ARE YOU:)
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The problem is that Obama's supporters have never been able to accept the reality that, at best, they are barely half the Democratic Party. Hillary Clinton has close to half the votes for the nomination. She does not need anyone's permission to have her name placed on the ballot for the nomination or to actually count the votes before declaring a winner of the nomination. The convention is supposed to be a meeting of the party. The attention that Hillary Clinton will get is nothing more than what is justified by the number of delegates who support her.
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This seems to me to be straight out of Tacitus and Machiavelli ... Obama is Tiberius and Clinton has the role of Sejanus: the presumptuous underlying who tries to assume ultimate power ...
First Clinton gets her slot, then Warner and Casey are to speak either side of her, next she is allowed her vote, but there will be a fall: there always is a fall ...
I keep asking, but no-one commenst, why it is that Bill is speaking immediately before the VP nomination on Wednesday ... Obama has two options: first he announces by email his VP in the middle of Clinton's speech, and so diverts the press, or else he holds back until the Wednesday perhaps even after Bill's speech and asks four people all to write speeches ...
I do not believe that the VP is a standard pick. The person will be:
1. A dark-horse politico like Corzine or Villaraigosa ...
2. A business figure like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Paul Jobs ....
3. A grand old man with mana like Bill, Al, or Ted (the last unlikely because of the tumour)
4. A non-standard Republican like Robert Gates or Colin Powell (how devastating would 'I was wrong' be ...).
5. A Supreme Court judge ...
6. Caroline Kennedy
7. A senior diplomat with first class credentials
8. Steven Spielberg
I'm sure I missing something ... but Hillary is going to have to clap and be silent ...
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26, Gary.
First I refer you back to your own words which say, in effect, that he has the final word.
There is no "head of the party" official title. It is a question of who has the power. Dean may be Chairman, and Pelosi may be Dpeaker of the House, but that does mean they are the most powerful people in the party. The most powerful person, as of now, is Obama. Should he lose the election obviously that will change.
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Will we ever be rid of the Clintons? And as others have said, what's up with "plucky nation"??? metaphor this woman and her family are a political machine that has lasted a generation and sells the idea (with a straight face)that getting elected to the Senate because of who your husband is and running for President on his name is, then complaining of sexism because you lost is...feminism!
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35, David.
I agree with you in principle. But the Clintons purpose is to undermine Obama, which will also undermine the Democratic Party. That is not playing the game.
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MarkFromOxford (#36), your list reads like it came from Mork From Ork instead.
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Gary, it might seem odd, and I'm probably as wildly wrong as any journalist ... my point is that the predictable is wrong ... of that I am certain. Any politician with Obama's skill is planning something, and the way the information is shifting as it comes out is pure Tiberius (who was the most politically skillful and dangerous of all of Rome's emperors). If he selects a Biden or Hagel, I'll be deeply disappointed: I think he's better, much better, than that ...
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38, 3Blevins.
What most people don't realize is that Clinton won her senate seat by default. She was running against Rudy Giuliani, the enormosly popular mayor of New York City, and hadn't a hope of winning (in spite of Bubba's support). Giuliani dropped out of the race (an unfortunate habit of his) and she won the election. The second time around she made it on her own.
Hillary Clinton has had a series of failures in her life, the most notable being her inability to worm her way into her husband's presidency. I believe that, in order to prove herself, to herself, she will do almost anything.
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The Clintons are snakes in the grass. Never has she stated she has ceased to pursue nomination. Her campaign has merely been "suspended". Don't be surprised when she un suspends it.
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41, Mark.
Even if Obama wanted to choose Hagel he couldn't. Two reasons: (1) If Obama died the president would be a republican, and (2) the democrats, quite rightly, deserve the prize.
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43, Dan.
What you say about "suspended" is true. Maybe she is still hoping someone will assassinate him. After all, many of their associates have had short life spans.
As for the convention, I don't see that she can capture the nomination. Even if she were to attempt it, she would do herself more harm than good.
Probably the Clintons will damn Obama with faint praise, magnanimously offer their valuable aid in the coming election, and perhaps suggest that Obama's eventual success is in their hands. That, in their minds, would make them top banana.
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Mr. Clinton has done his bit "to" God, Country and his wife. Mrs. Clinton has tried to do her bit "to" God, Country, and her husband. Can we please not be forced to endulge the "Clintons ".
I can not imagine Mr. Obama taking center stage before, during, or after a Clinton. Mrs. Clinton no longer holds a place in the presidential campaign. I do not believe Mr. Obama would chose a VP running mate where he has to take on the spouse as well. Two's company and threes a crowd. Mr. Obamas personality and beliefs will clash with the those of the Clintons, especially Mr. Clintons loose, lying attitudes, and lack of taking responsibility for both Mr. and Mrs. Clintons statements and actions.
Sorry if this offends a Clinton beliver, just my view of the Clintons words and actions.
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I don't think Obama is concerned about the Clintons. He might, for good reason, be concerned about diehard Clinton nutcases hijacking the evening, thereby putting the party and Obama in the position of cracking down on the partisans on live TV.
If Hillary's name is put into nomination, I'd like her to get up and request that it be withdrawn.
#43: Campaigns are suspended when the candidate withdraws from the race with campaign debt on the books. It's a manuever that allows the campaign -- as a legally recognized organization -- to continue to solicit funds to pay off debt. it's been a common practice for years. Don't read something nefarious into it.
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ref #36 I am not sure if this post is serious.
I don't think America want someone who doesn't know to put on a seatblet (Corzine)
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As they say, it's better to have them inside the tent pissing out, rather than outside pissing in.
The Obama people have been spinning for some time that the Veep will be a shock and cause a "ripple". The text message stunt adds to that anticipation so they don't want it to end up an anti-climax. This means that Bayh seems unlikely. You can't get any more boring and "safe" than him. Unless of course, the spinning is just spin to keep us all guessing.
I have a feeling it could be Al Gore, but he will announce he's only doing 4 years to act as a sort of "mentor" and help guide the new young President. Obama can then pick a potential successor for his second term.
However, it seems Joe Biden is now the frontrunner according to internet rumours.
Anyway, here's another amusing effort from Dick Morris. He really hates the Clintons!
www.dickmorris.com/blog/2...
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47, Just.
Thanks. I didn't know that.
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Ms marbles,
That didn't stop her during the primary campaign.;-)
ed
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Obviously, it's always possible to tell which people commenting here are nationals or residents of which nations, so I don't know who's American and who isn't in the discussion of who is "head" of either of America's two main (virtually to the point of exclusivity) political parties. But, being an American, and having some reasonable knowledge of our two-party political system, I can say the current president of the US is, in fact, the de facto head of his (or her, when it happens) party. The president in office sets the tones and leads the way -- via his or her own convictions, or merely parroting the suggestions of close advisors -- for his or her party. The chairperson of the party has a largely administrative, strategizing and planning role, no sole authority. Likewise, the convention chairperson, although the strategy is for the short term public perception of the convention, yet also with no sole authority.
So, it's fair enough to say the presidential nominee of either party in an election year is the de facto head of the party. Making it not at all unreasonable to call the presumptive nominee -- per this discussion, we mean Senator Obama -- the de facto head of the party.
If anyone is "calling the shots" for the overall DNC in Denver, it's Senator Obama and his campaign, as for all intents and purposes he IS the nominee, and the purpose of the convention -- in modern times -- is to formally announce the nomination of the presumptive nominee. And it's a pep rally (I hope everyone is familiar enough with that term) to motivate party-aligned voters for the lead-up to election day, and also, hopefully, to sway some independent voters or party-ticket voters who have become enough dissatisfied with the opposing party to consider voting for the competing candidate.
As for Senator Clinton usurping Senator Obama with a large-scale surprise switch of super-delegates to result in nominating her to the Democratic party ticket, this not going to happen. Just like this was never "going to come down to the convention". That was never ever, not ever, going to happen. The American press has fanned these flames for months and months because this year of Democratic primaries has been the best, most readily dramatized, long-running news story since that little girl fell down a water well here in Texas about two decades back. (Exception the 11/9/2008 terrorists attacks, which were good news, but also very frightening and tragic to many if not most Americans, so that story lacked the ready spectacle of entertainment. On the other hand, while people across the nation wept and prayed for that little child -- Jessica, her name may be -- trapped down the well, when it came to it, had she died before rescue this would have only been truly tragic for her family and their close acquaintances; everyone else would have "recovered" from their "grief" in a couple days.)
Finally, as I've wound on, the notion Senator Obama will name Senator Clinton his running mate is hardly as farfetched as everyone seems to think. If he runs without her, he will LIKELY win the election over McCain, but it's not a sure bet, and a late-in-the-day, properly presented, unsubstantiated, and even in fact false, negative rumor about Senator Obama concerning a matter of significance to many voting Americans might sink his candidacy. If he runs with Senator Clinton, it's a virtual lock. The access of former president Clinton to the White House is irrelevant. Who cares? Certainly not Senator Obama, although he might find it annoying. The vice president him or herself is merely standing in waiting should he or she be required to assume the presidency on a temporary or permanent basis; and also he she acts as a vote in the US Senate, to break ties, if it comes down to it, which it really seldom does. Otherwise, banging a gavel to open US Senate sessions is just about the only formally empowered big highlight of the US vice president's life.
And very lastly, Senator Clinton CANNOT undermine Senator Obama's candidacy in this election in order to set up a 2012 candidacy against Senator John McCain, who will be quite aged by then and may in four years trip over himself enough to be completely unacceptable to Americans as a two-term president. If she undermines Senator Obama, she certainly can create a fraction of this scenario, allowing Senator McCain to win and then perhaps face no chance at reelection in 2012; but it will be another Democratic candidate who wins the office. If she willfully sinks Senator Obama, if it's even PERCEIVED she acted to sink the man's chances in of her party taking back the executive office in November, Senator Clinton CANNOT POSSIBLY WIN nomination to the presidential ballot as a Democrat in 2012.
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Justin,
About a year ago, November 19th, 2007, Robert Novak wrote: "WASHINGTON Agents of Sen. Hillary Clinton are spreading the word in Democratic circles that she has scandalous information about her principal opponent for the party's presidential nomination, Sen. Barack Obama, but has decided not to use it. The nature of the alleged scandal was not disclosed."
My guess is that whatever that bombshell was, that it was not launched. Obama is being blackmailed, and the Clinton's will have their way with any future Obama administration.
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monty .
I hope you are right , but your analysis is based on your view and my view (maybe) of her.
In your analysis you say(53)
"As for Senator Clinton usurping Senator Obama with a large-scale surprise switch of super-delegates to result in nominating her to the Democratic party ticket, this not going to happen."
this is not the assumption. the super delegates would be crazy to risk it at this stage, but if Florida.Mich. and the other Hillamaniacs turn up and try to argue
the super delegates are irrelevant and the Edwards people would all be with her is he had not been such a "cad" .If the real popular vote and the fake caucuses and that muslim guy,who by the way said there are chickens in the roof..................
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54. At 00:49am on 15 Aug 2008, RealFrigid
yea yea but it was the guy from arkansas that was just killed.
someone who knew the clintons.
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56, Jack.
Did you hear about the woman who knew them who committed suicide by shooting herself in the back of the head?
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55, Jack.
Apparently, according to Iowa exit polls, most of those who voted for Edwards, listed Obama as their second choice - not Clinton.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Clinton Gang walked into Obama's Variety store. We can protect you.
From what? Obama asked.
The Clinton's start knocking products off the shelf and breaking them, "from a slight accident boss." You make us partners, and we will protect you.
Obama might unite the party by making Hillary V.P. but he loses in the end. Better he take anyone else as VP and take his chances.
I am voting for McCain, but still not enthusiastically. Neither candidate is up to the task at hand.
I will watch the conventions though. Especially the Democratic Convention. It will be fun to watch a barroom brawl without getting hit during it. Bread and Circuses.
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58 marbles I know just suggesting this is how the hillamaniacs would approach rather than trying to win over super delegates as Monty there suggested.
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I share your frustrations Justin! However, the risks of not doing so are just simply too great and one's we can't aford to take!! The convention won't be "all about her!" She'll be awarded her deligates, but the focus will still be on Obama! Its not as if she's still going to try and fight the fact that she lost, and as long as that doesn't happen, then I don't see the harm.
Tell me Justin, what would you do to ensure Obama's victory in November (that is aside from making it manditory to interview with the BBC of course!) without angering her and her supporters? Seriously I'd love to know.
Thank You
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In reply to #56, jacksforge:
Bill Gwatney. Yes, very strange indeed. Timothy Dale Johnson kills him with an unknown motive and dies in a shoot out with police.
Is it related to the Clinton's "dirt", or a dispute about Gwatney's car dealerships and who is this strange married women Johnson harrassed who works at Dr. Neaville's Family Dentistry? I don't know, but stuff like this makes you wonder about the underworld of US politics, or maybe it was unrequited love.
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If Europe gets its wish and Obama gets elected, don't expect him to stand up to the Russians over Georgia. they will take it and Ukraine and when they do, they will have a choke hold on much of the oil and gas that gets piped to Europe. This was what Secretary of Defense Gates said would happen if they gain control over Georgia tonight on a PBS interview. That is Russia's goal according to what former US ambassador to the UN Richard Holbrook said on PBS last night, Georgia, Ukraine, and much of the former Soviet Empire. I say America should walk out of NATO and let the Europeans fight the new cold war with the emerging Russian empire all by themselves. Let's see how much they have left for their social safety nets after that. I think this time we should let them win or lose on their own. I see no value to the US in defending them.
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O and Justin, nice ccomparison between the Clinton/Obama drama and the Georga/Russia conflict!! Very estute!
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I am struck by how impressed I was with Obama during the primary...
And how unimpressed I am with his performance since.
He has begun pandering to the more corrupt elements on the religious right by suggesting he would continue the government handouts to faith-based organizations.
He has suggested we should begin pumping out of the strategic oil reserve which is just as pointless and ineffective as John and Hillary's summer gas tax holiday.
And now he's letting the Clinton's turn the Convention into a fiasco.
The Presidency was his to lose...
And he's lost it.
The McCain/Cheney ticket is going to win by default.
Great news for the oil industry and corrupt military contractors. Not so good for our guys and gals in uniform or the average citizen.
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Markfromoxfard...please read my post at #323 on the 'August 11th entry on the 'Openness/staying power discussion. I have some questions written there that I would like cleared up. Thank you.
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MAII, #64, I have a different approach.
IMHO (and it is probably a good idea that
I am not running things), we should be
sending F-16's and A-10's to the Ukraine
and Georgia, and send in either the
82nd or the 101st to Georgia before the
Russians take the pipelines.
Bush is being his usual, vacillating, weak-willed
self. God help us.
As far as the Europeans go, there is an
"Old" Europe and a "New" Europe. If Old Europe
will follow us, good. If not, that's fine as well.
Nobody seems to have asked the Lithuanians,
Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, Rumanians, Bulgarians,
Ukrainians and Turks whether they want to cow down
before the Russian Empire. I'll bet they'll welcome
our help.
Beside, we have to get rid of our old military
hardware to make room for the new stuff.
Finally, a chance to help people who deserve
to be helped!
Note: I am a civilian, and in no way speak for
my government.
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SalemDesign
Were you wrong then or are you wrong now? How can you be sure. Isn't that the whole point about Obama, none of us can be because we really don't know who he is?
If he can't handle a political convention, how can he handle the executive branch of the US federal government?
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jacksforge, I think, though I'm not tallying the numbers as I write this, if Florida and Michigan go rogue, and the super-delegates do their jobs -- that is, the reason the super-delegate invitations were ever issued in the first place: to stop rogue delegates from nominating someone who is not the actual, or perceived according to delegate count, winner of the primary -- the concept of "nomination-jacking" will be irrelevant. Months and months ago, Dick Morris was running round American cable news outlets explaining the novelty of a nomination coming down to the super-delegates, as that role was always just a honorary invitation, to invite party leaders, ex-party officials, etc., to party conventions they were not otherwise eligible to attend in formal role. I don't know why. It's not true. Super-delegates were always intended as plugs to stop up leaky dams of rogue delegates; the fact they are often former party luminaries, party favorites and such is true but incidental to their intended use.
RealFrigid, Bob Novak is quite ill with a brain tumor, and he recently committed a serious felony -- although I don't believe he has yet, or even will be, indicted -- possibly secondary to the action of the tumor on his brain. Novak remarks were made about nine months ago. It can be many months, even years, before a brain tumor causes behavioral symptoms that that cause the patient to seek evaluation, or the patient's family and close acquaintances to compel such. It is reasonable to declare it's not wise to trust anything Novak stated within the last couple years. I'm certainly not one of these people that would wish such an illness on anyone no matter how much I disliked their politics, but this doesn't mean I can ignore the fact of his diagnosis, and the circumstances by which I do not know and cannot learn without his permission or personal disclosure the exact nature of his diagnosis.
MarkAtOxford, the most obvious reasons I see for Bill Clinton delivering the addressing the convention directly before the VP nomination is one, to placate supporters of his wife prior to the announcement of a running mate not Senator Clinton, or because the running mate IS INDEED Senator Clinton.
SalemDesign, sitting VP Cheney as running mate for Senator McCain is preposterous. For one thing, even ardent critics of this administration will often grant this president far more grace than his vice president, as Mr. Cheney is perceived the architect and/or implementor of about everything that went wrong in this administration. Whether true or not, it's a broad perception. Mr. Cheney standing alongside Mr. McCain could readily eradicate any chance of a Republican president this November. Next up, Mr. Cheney may have committed crimes in office for which he could spend the rest of his life in federal confinement, possibly even be executed under US law (though the latter would surely not be the sentence). A lot of people in positions of oppositional power in Washington would love to see Cheney shuffling round the prison yard in irons once a day for an hour. But with Cheney out of high public office, the focus will shift and the motivation will be gone. There were all sorts of grumbles and preliminary inquiries into federal crimes committed by Ford in relation to his full pardon of Nixon, but when he lost to Carter in 1976, the target painted on him immediately faded, and he became merely a former, if largely unremarkable, one-term president -- noted only for the fact he's the only US president never elected to the executive office. It would server Mr. Cheney well to reach a position of safety, and the best, fastest route to that high ground is to leave the executive office.
Too much has been made of the Clintons and conspiracy. Yes, we Americans have our political intrigues, and no doubt the Clintons are as deep in some of them as almost anyone else, but this year, the press has heavily contributed to this sense of "Star Chamber" politics because, as I mentioned before, this long-lived, dramatic story of the current Democratic primary has greatly increased their constant readers and viewers.
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66, Salem.
I think most of us share your thoughts. But what I tell myself is that the true candidate gives his views early on.
After that he goes around trying to get votes and says just about anything. That's partly because the campaign is soooo long and they run out of things to say.
I almost gave up on him when he started courting the evangelicals. How he could have been so stupid as to endanger his base by chasing those few votes he will never get, I don't know.
My solution is not to follow the campaign. I will remain politically comotose until elelction day when I will vote for Obama.
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lostallhermarbles #71
"I will remain politically comotose until elelction day when I will vote for Obama."
Time passes but nothing really changes. So you will still be comatose when you vote for Obama. Based on what we know of him, you'd have to be. In what decade do you think you will regain consciousness? How and Why?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Quite simply, he still needs her.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
We passed a law to limit our president to two terms of office. Perhaps we should consider passing a law that prohibits any member of a presidents family, either by birth or marriage, from being president. This might eliminate the sense of entitlement and the political dynasties that have pervaded our political system for too long. Incest can result in unhealthy offspring.
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Why am I not surprised at all this? And it all has the makings of a First Class soap opera. I remember the old line ".... as the worm turns!".
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In reply to #70, montyairline :
Re: Robert Novak
I've heard this argument before, and it works on just about anyone. If you don't like something they say, find anything in their past that you can use to discredit their entire life's work. It's doubly sad because he won't be able to defend himself. Mr. Novak's story seems shaky, but who knows if there is any shred of truth, or if it was a Clinton tactic to win at any cost. Certainly not you or I.
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aquagirl, they tried this in the Catholic church,
and wound up choosing leaders in an even
weirder way than we do. Pretty soon, we'd be
observing little puffs of smoke coming from
chimneys to determine who the next leader
would be.
Politics without inbreeding? What could that possibly
be like?
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..... and in the VP stakes ? I would happily put my twopennyworth on John Kerry.
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80, Gun.
I like the puffs of smoke idea. It would save us months of boredom.
81, Chancy.
Having run for president, he would not run as VP. At least it has never happened.
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Marbles - 82.
I take your point but we are living in desperate times. He has made the most forceful contribution to the campaign so far, is obviously "up for it" and has some serious unfinished business with the neocons.
We shall see .........
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G'nR,
What good is a pipeline if you don't control the source end?;-)
ed
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The true story!
;-)
ed
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Placing Sen.Clinton's name in nomination at the convention is weird to say the least. What's the use? Why would she be willing to overshadow the actual nominee?
Up till now we've talking about whether the loser (Sen.Clinton) would strongly come out in support of the winner. Now we know that her end-of-campaign speach where she ostensibly endorsed Obama was not sincere. Sen.Clinton seems bent on ruining his bid for the presidency.
P.S. isn't his summer vacation hurting the campaign?
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It would be a shame to let this Bagram- related story go unreported.
It seems that there was a female "neuroscientist" who "disappeared" for five years, was or was not screaming in a torture cell at Bagram, was picked by two FBI and two military police to be taken to the USA, got shot three times in route, etc., etc.
If the BBC has some American reporters, it would be nice to learn more:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0814/p99s01-duts.html
Do check it out and follow the story!.
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It is an olive branch I suspect where one is not really needed, but at least she is not the key note speaker. I do not think the convention will be all about the Clintons, but Obama certainly has his hands full with those two and their power driven ego games. I am signed up for the text of the Obama VP announcement, and in the McCain camp, floating the name of moderately pro-choice Ridge has the conservatives threatening to withdraw their support.
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Parrisia,
I don't think so. He'll return well-rested to the real battle, instead of wasting his energy on the present "phoney war". Besides, his campaign staff aren't on vacation, Just check this out! They seem to be firing on all cylinders.The sign of a good executive is an organisation which can function perfectly well in his/her absence. The obvious comparison with the Clinton shambles speaks volumes. Welcome to Rancho Cool
;-)
ed
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ref #49
I don't think it will be Al Gore. he is more beloved in Europe than the U.S. And even his supporters would agree he can be a polarizing figure.
And the attacks ads would be so easy in regard to environmental hypocracy.
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According to the Globe, Obama fathered a love child while at university. This is the "dirt" the Clintons claim to have. However, they didn't use it during the primaries so perhaps it's not true.
Even if it is true, Obama didn't know Michelle at the time and may not even be aware of the child's existence. It would be damaging, but not terminal.
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#84, Ed, the Caspian is surrounded by
various countries with different degrees of
allegiance to Moscow and Washington.
By giving countries bordering the Caspian
an alternative to shipping their crude
through Russia, Clinton hoped to permanently
pull them out of Moscow's orbit.
It will be interesting to see what area the
Russians target next. I'll bet they go after
the Ukraine, but how do they do it? Do
they go in and grab the Crimea, or cut off
their fuel supplies?
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Oh, and Ed, need I mention that now the Russians
can once again corner the market on caviar?
How are we going to have political conventions
and diplomatic receptions without that? Justin
and his BBC compatriots may decide to stay
home if it becomes unavailable.
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G'nR,
Not to mention colloquia on upcoming environmental crises...It's bad enough when the airconditioning malfunctions, but...failures in catering - let's not go there!;-)
ed
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I think the most likely candidates for VP in Obama's ticket are Virginia Governor Tim Kaine, Gov. Sebelius and Gov. Napolitano. All of them have executive experience, are very popular in their respective states, and have attributes that would appeal to specific segments of the electorate.
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The vast majority of voters will see and hear only one thing from the convention - Obama's speech. He just needs to get that right and little else matters.
For the rest of it, he might as well let Clinton dominate the entire programme to placate those of her supporters who still believe she had a divine right to the nomination.
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What no one has yet mentioned....
...and might be a bit of a revelation to some here:
Obama is not the Democratic candidate for President -- yet.
All those primaries were not binding. The party's candidate is decided at the convention. Anyone attending the convention might be in for a real political show not seen in decades.
There is a strong possibility that many Hillary supporters will demonstrate on the convention floor. There is even a slight possibility that all this might escalate into something mor than a little old-fashioned pagentry and pomp. After all this is the Clintons we are talking about.
Should Obama actually become the candidate. I do not think Hillary wants to have to wait another eight years before doing this all over again. HIllary also was not exacly a loser. She was winning primaries up to the end and Obama had a great deal of trouble "closing the deal". It is not outside the realm of possibility that Obama might be "persuaded" he is destined to lose against McCain and to bow down to Hillary and wait a few more years...maybe finish out his freshman term as Senator?
If anyone can arrange a convention surprise -- it is the Clintons.
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The Clintons are done. Despite all the caterwauling, she (or more accurately they) lost the nomination all on their own as the internal papers that were leaked prove. Just as her Bosnian sniper fire claims were hyperbole, so are her skills and experience. Just saying it doesn't make it so.
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MikeIL,
I hope you're disappointed. Schadenfreude is appropriately named - the "shameful delight" in the misfortune of others...;-)
And there's this ;-)#
ed
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It seems Obama and McCain will have a long discussion on CNN with an interesting evangelical pastor:
"...His questions will focus on how the candidates lead and make decisions and will cover five topics: leadership, stewardship, worldview, compassion issues, and their vision for America.
"... There's little doubt the forum will capture a large audience. Many Evangelicals have been in a quandary over the election, not ready to embrace Senator McCain yet suspicious of Senator Obama.
Millions of Americans are eager to get a more intimate look at the men vying to lead them. And Warren's stature among a broad spectrum of Christians and others who have read his books or signed onto his global mentoring program for churches (some 400,000) is itself a draw..."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0815/p01s01-uspo.html
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"Should Obama actually become the candidate. I do not think Hillary wants to have to wait another eight years before doing this all over again. HIllary also was not exacly a loser. She was winning primaries up to the end and Obama had a great deal of trouble "closing the deal". It is not outside the realm of possibility that Obama might be "persuaded" he is destined to lose against McCain and to bow down to Hillary and wait a few more years...maybe finish out his freshman term as Senator?
If anyone can arrange a convention surprise -- it is the Clintons."
Er it is a rule of thumb, but a good one that politicians rarely cede power voluntarily.
SHort of a gun and his children's abduction nothing will persuade Senator Obama to give up the race now
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gunsandreligion please read my post at #68 on the 'Monocrome thinking, August 14th entry. I have some serious questions I would like answered, and insiteful information I think you'll find interesting.
And you're not serious about your thoughts on the sending of F-16s to Russia are you? Please tell me you're jokeing!!
Thank You
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so obama sees that russia is worth being diplomatic about and to. and both sides(as he said) are heading to peace and the little school kid neocons run out and start shouting "ne na ne na and don't do it again."
sounds like Bush is trying to ratchet us up to the brink for mc cain to win.is ajoke.
McCain immediately blames Russia as does his buddy Bush.
Not ca we be more antagonistic.
Well how about a missile shield.
The republican and neoCON policy of trying their hardest to make sure peace does not break out.
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Too right, Jack, too right! When you can hardly get your stick up, you've gotta talk big...
Salaam, etc.
ed
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RealFrigid,
re: Novak. I ONLY meant the last couple years. Sure it's possible he's had this cerebral mass for 40 years, and sure it's possible it's affected his decisions and behavior for 40 years. (I am suspicious, though hardly convinced, that actor Charlton Heston's sea change in his politics and behavior in the 1980s -- it was far, far more than just gun rights and control; and, he went from a mild-mannered, very genial man in public to a man who could be vicious and harshly extremist -- was due to Alzheimer's disease onset (at his age in the 1980s, it wouldn't have even been particularly early), the disease having been determined to start far earlier, and people with the disease live quite functionally far longer both before and after a proper diagnosis, than previously thought.) But that Novak has been victim of his tumor for 40 years without symptoms compelling him to seek evaluation would be notably rare.
It happens "all the time", people die in their 80s, more or less of "old age", or, say, heart failure, and on autopsy they are discovered to have had a cerebral mass likely almost old as they are, perhaps even developed as a fetus. But, typically, these have long been static in size, and benign both as tumor and in its affect on his behavior.
So, what I'm saying is ONLY two years back would I question his assertions based on his medical condition; beyond that, certainly regarding his "life's work", I'd gladly debate his politics but I would not feel I had the weight of reason on my side in questioning him based on his recent medical diagnosis.
Due to some troublesome but apparently benign peripheral nerve symptoms, very recently I had a "million-dollar work up", so I know I don't have a brain tumor, and that organ, and my vascular system, my heart and lungs are all in the shape of someone in their 20s and I'm 40 (almost all genetic luck, nothing in which I can stake pride: I do cycle regularly for long periods and don't often drink alcohol, but I smoke and eat as I please). But, say I had not had these tests, we wouldn't know at this moment my status, and I would find it reasonably if within two years people questioned the rationale of my work now. But in 20 years, should I be diagnosed with a condition that could seriously affect my logic an decision-making, I'd be offended if anyone called into question the work I did now based on a diagnosis made two decades hence.
In summary, Novak has had in the course of his life a notable career espousing view and opinions with which I merely disagree and must debate on point. But in the last couple years, I believe I can reasonably question is rationality in his work -- there have been more than just the automobile versus pedestrian incident, and the statement about information the Clinton campaign had about Senator Obama. Also, let's not forget, Novak may have been perfectly compos mentis but was lead by the Clinton campaign so that he would release a nebulous statement about information they didn't really have concerning a scandal that never existed; that's not at all farfetched in a political campaign.
For everyone, American and otherwise, confused or disappointed with Obama the presumptive nominee compared with Obama the primary candidate, these are two vastly different games. In the primaries, candidates are, what we say in America, "preaching to the choir". Once they've become the presumptive nominees, the game vastly changes. You can run a fairly "clean" campaign, not pandering to niche votes, in the primaries, chiefly because even your opponent is on the same team, and therefore is expected by the team's fan not to completely tank his or her opponent in their campaigning, should that opponent win the year and be put forward against the other party, the party loyal would never forgive the losing candidate for destroying the nominees chances in the general election. But in the general campaign, which is underway now although neither candidate is the official nominee of their respective parties, you can't run "clean" or refuse to pander for what seem insignificant voting blocks. Those blocks may mean the win. In 2004, there is an excellent argument that Mr. Bush won, an won by the "mandate" he sought, because Mr. Rove went round to states with Republican-controlled legislatures having them put bills for state constitution amendments banning gay marriage on the same ballot as the presidential election. This brought out that the a small voting block who may have been mostly ambivalent or unmotivated about the presidential election but care enough to go vote against gay marriage in their home states. And of course they'd vote for president while they're at the polls, and of course the only palatable candidate for them was Mr. Bush. But almost all of these state constitutional amendments were rushed up in the writing, poorly realized, and therefore unconstitutional at the federal level even facing the weakest of challenges. The point being, Mr. Rove did not care one bit the state amendments banning gay marriage would not stand up in court; he only cared they baited a small voting block to the polls on presidential election day, where they'd surely vote for president as long as they were there, when they'd surely vote for Mr. Bush.
Even if Senator Obama wanted to run a completely "clean", smart campaign against Senator McCain he couldn't. Not even if Mr. McCain were likewise committed. As soon as one side discovers the other side is dedicated to a campaign of real substance, the opposition goes into mudslinging mode, a useful campaign strategy in America, at least, and the competing campaign must then respond in kind.
Mr. Webb, in his note about this blog, seems to call America a "complex" place. Americans like to think of themselves as simple, quiet, hardworking folks with only basic needs and desires, and the total commitment to attain most of these things all by themselves. To Americans, say, political strife in some African or South American nations is a complex scenario, but nor America. This is tantamount to mass delusion. Mr. Webb is quite right: America is the most complex place on the planet. By contrast, these lethal political machinations of some tumultuous African nations are quite simple. They mostly all have to due with graft or villainy of the government leadership in that nation, or they are caused by a fairly altruistic national government faced with the graft and villainy of the leadership of a neighboring nation. Quite simple. America, on the other hand, is insanely complicated, often widely overambitious, and substantially self-absorbed -- has been for a couple of centuries. Not to mention, post WWII, we'd gained an increasing propensity to meddle in the affairs of other, smaller nations, often with no clear rational whatsoever. Our national (and regional) political elections, almost all the way back to the time George Washington declined to accept an additional term as president, permanently resigning from public life, they have been circuses royale.
I know many foreign nationals hear Americans, officially and informally, speak of ourselves as stalwarts of civil rights, democracy and free-market capitalism. Yet what they observe seems Byzantine, only vaguely democratic in the nominal sense -- for example, how can the people's president, elected solely by the president, lose when he or she has a clear majority of the people's vote? -- and our government's allegiance to the interests of large American-based or founded corporations, disregard for own labor, let alone the laborers of other, poorer nations, one-side-blind attempts to compel civil rights appreciation in nations that are ONLY AT THAT TIME on the sighted side of us, these things don't jibe with what we say. People call us hypocrites. We are not. Our government policy-makers may be, but we, as a people are not. We as a people are:
We are taught one thing, the reasonable truth, about our system of government in secondary schools and higher (university) education. We are taught another thing via popular media, entertainment and national legend. As we are a people immersed in popular entertainment media, and have the luxury of time to pursue these recreations -- even poorly educated, street-drug abusing, virtually impoverished people have scraped together the price of an Xbox 360! -- in our formative years we are likely to ignore, or learn only for the purpose of examination and then dismiss, the facts of our system of government, and we do, in fact, believe the myths and legends about America in popular media.
To site cite some examples: The somewhat unrelated tales of Woodrow Wilson and the two Roosevelts (cousins, with vastly different ideologies): Even the so-called far, liberal "left" in America, during this internationally criticized, undeclared war on Iraq, consider Mr. Bush and his administration to be the worst, most "fascist", most secretive government, with little care for decimating the civil rights of our own people in prosecution of his private war. The fact is, Mr. Wilson, during WWI, makes Mr. Bush look like a bona fide member of the militant wing of the Black Panthers circa the 1960s. Mr. Wilson was an isolationist, a Democrat, too, who eventually became convinced we must enter WWI for own national interests; once had had so determined and been influences, Mr. Wilson prosecuted that war like a rabid dog out of his cage, stripping not only citizen's civil rights and right of free sppech, but the rights of our much-heralded free press, his enforcers, with the weight of executive order and congressional law behind them, imprisoning Americans, mostly just for the term of the that war, but on occasion for much of their lives, for things as simple as a couple of times making, at work at places as inconsequential as workaday machine shops, statements essentially as trivial as "I don't know this war in Europe is such a good idea."
Teddy Roosevelt is roundly considered on all sides to be a true fin de siècle American hero, a kind man with elements of wild frontier, earthy brilliance. In fact, he was an avid self-promoter, a well-educated northeastern politician, who started a war with Spain on highly questionable grounds, certainly an issue that could have been worked out diplomatically in no time, merely to test the American military might he had lobbied for and helped build. He is directly responsible for many deaths of both foreign and his own American soldiers, all to prove a point in a test case.
Franklin Roosevelt is today in America considered, even by so-called liberals who remain fond of him, to be the proto-American socialist. Conservatives are often frankly disgusted by the mere mention of his name. The fact of the matter is that Mr. Roosevelt, born of numbing wealth, crippled as a fairly young man by polio, went on, all the while seriously disabled, to be instrumental in pulling the nation out of an economic depression, providing for people not only gainful employment digging ditches or raising buildings, but also in the arts, theater, as writers, as scientists, if those were their accustomed disciplines. He spoke regularly and consistently to the American people over radio in an unprecedented, and never fully repeated, openness with the American people, from wealth befitting an American brand of royalty to an egalitarian president committed to the legendary principles of the design of the American nation. For this, in his day, he was called a class traitor, and now is recalled by many Americans as a dangerous, dull-witted, soft-hearted socialist -- even though he commissioned Manhattan to build a weapon so horrific that merely several of them would kill tens of thousands, or millions, but would spare formerly free Europe, America and most the rest of the world from an at the time aggressive German dictatorship and equally aggressive, mighty Imperial Japan.
It should be fairly noted that regarding our perception of our nation, we are, most of us, not hypocrites, but simply not inclined as a culture to autodidact pursuits or to retain what we've been taught in formal education. We believe what we say about America, the great democracy, the fair and equal free-market economy, when we argue with you over it in Victoria Station, or a tapas bar in Buenos Aires, or under the arch of the Brandenburg Gate, or in the midst of complaining about the exorbitant price of a glass of Coke -- and don't even get ice! -- at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.
This is just something valuable to remember when you observe American national behavior, or engaged in conversation by a random American whom you haven't picked out as a friend due to like interests, empathetic politics, etc. We believe our own press, our legends, our own bold mythology. We have perhaps equal, if not clearly the most, rights of any nation in the world to be educated about the facts of our history and government, to further read and educate ourselves in these matters without censorship, and likewise without muzzling to speak or write of our interpretations of this information. But, in large numbers, we don't take advantage of any of this. Most of don't even vote, though we follow elections and crow over this or that bit of minutiae in a candidate's platform.
I'm NOT saying it's unfair to criticize us for what can be reasonably perceived as a willful type of ignorance -- at least an ignorance born of complacency; but it is something to bear in mind: We are not lying when we, as a people, not as a the mouth of the American governmental administration, tell you something about America clearly preposterous based on obvious evidence. We may be wrong, but we're not lying, not hypocritical, because we truly BELIEVE the lullabies to be real, and because we truly BELIEVE the glorious things we claim for our nation.
(Sorry for the long-winded reply, but so many people seem to find America, Americans and American politics inscrutable, and I hope I've provided a least some measure of explanation of why we are the way we are.)
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To #101 SImnon21.
Obama is a product of the infamously corrupt Chicago Democratic Political Machine -- which has dozens of members and associates in jail or under indictment for all sorts of corruption today. Also, Obama has not been scrutinized by the national media.
The Clintons are well known for using Private Investigators and other "unorthodox" rough and tumble tactics. Nothing should surprise anyone.
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Monty,
Far too long, but worth the slog. You should, perhaps, proofread before posting..., but
Thanks!
Salaam, etc.
ed
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What has happened to his self-confidence?
I would say it is stronger than ever. Giving an opportunity to his former opponents to get credit for what they accomplished during the campaign demonstrates not only self-confidence, but willingness to recognize the achievements of others and in so doing gain the respect and support of voters that originally favored someone else. This is a good move on Obama's part, but I am not sure it will do much for Hillary in 2012.
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Who's on vacation? Not the crew! ;-) ed
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And these folk are still at work
() Peace
ed
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Part of a NEWS story (for the benefit of the Mods (who are as Gods), proving that, while the boss is on vacation, then staff keep on working...
;-)
ed
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Frolics on holiday (whoops! vacation).
;-)
ed
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Surf's up!
(check the comments)
() Respect!
ed
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DominickVila (#108), Obama didn't "give" anything to H. Clinton here. She has the right to be nominated, and earned enough delegates to make a strong showing, so wants a roll-call vote to demonstrate her strength. Nancy Pelosi, the convention chairman, is in favor of that, according to today's San Francisco Chronicle. So it will happen. Obama does not control that decision, so he has chosen to be gracious about it, which is his way.
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Re post #106, it is not news that there is corruption in Chicago politics (as everywhere else). It would be news if Obama himself were indicted, but he has not been. The only senator to be indicted recently is a Republican, Ted Stevens of Alaska.
As for scrutiny, Obama has been scrutinized by Chicago nespapers rather thoroughly over the past three years. See the following Sun Times article for an example:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
If there were any corrupt dealings in Obama's background in Chicago, they would be national news by now.
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Obama is right to give the Clintons the floor. Some call it weakness, but I call it cunning. By Hillary pushing for a Floor Vote, she will show that she is a sore loser. Nobody likes a sore loser. Some of her fanatic fans still blame Obama for Hillary's losing the Primary, not the fact that she lost because she played a too high stake game.
I am still suspicious of Bill's motives. Somehow I think he wanted her to lose because he sabatauged her at just the right moments. Does he secretly desire her comedown. This is silly everybody knows....
Let the Clintons have the floor so that they can have the door on all their bad feelings.
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Re: #110. This may serve Obama better than McCain, who is not as comfortable discussing issues of faithObama v McCain on faith
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# 105
That very long piece was designed to show that things are not always as we are indoctrinated and taught to believe.
The poster demonstrates it himself with regard to Teddy Roosevelt and the Spanish American War.
The War was organized by a cabal: the Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, the publisher William Randolf Hearst and an officer on the naval staff, William Thayer Mahan.
So only three people, but politics, the media and the military. Their planned purpose was to secures coaling stations for a a fleet defending a Panama Canal and to have bases across the Pacific to facilitate business incursions into China.
(Does anyone think of the NeoCons?)
However, how many American school children or military academy graduates learn the real story about the Spanish-American War?
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To #115 GaryAHill
As John Kass of the Chicago Tribune wrote in his news column last week -- A daily clumn focusing on corruption in Chicago -- that's right a Ragular Pg. 2 column just on corruption in Chicago all the time....
"Some cities have an eternal flame. We (Chicago) have eternal shame.
In that time (since 1972), we've also had three governors go away for various kinky behavior, and perhaps a fourth is getting ripe enough for picking ( refernce to Obama's friend and supporter IL Gov. Rod Blagojavich). The federal score card reads this way:
Aldermen 27, Governors 3, Chicago Mayors 0."
That is just the elected officials. Not included in this scorecard ae the scores, nay hundreds of others also indicted and convicted for official corruption -- everything from cops who routinely tortured confessions out of suspects, to utility people.
So Obama the supposed reformer, what has he done to fight corruption in Chicago?
He blamed John Kass for having the wrong attitude ealier this year at a Tribune editorial board interview. Obama acknowledges corruption exists in Chicago but has never once called for "reform" in his adopted hometown.
Want to learn more about the "Chicago Way" and where Obama comes from?
Check out John Kass' CHicago Tribune columns.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-johnkass,0,5724822.columnist
Go ahead, just skim Kass' columns if you think Obama absolutely can have nothing scandalous in his closet.
If Obama truly is the man to bring "Change we can believe in" -- well he sure has not bring it to Chicago.
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To #118 XIE:
What you describe is pretty much common knowledge among Americans with a decent High School Education.
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Ref 118
I agree with everything you said, history is written by the victors and the dominant segment of society and, therefore, it often reflects their values, prejudices and interests. In addition to strategic reasons, the Spanish-American war was also influenced by cultural hatred, which remains latent to this day. If you ask an American student which were the first European colonists and settlements in the USA, the overwhelming majority would answer the British pilgrims, Jamestown, etc. I would be surprised if more than a handful mentioned St. Augustine, Florida, and the Minorcan colonists that settled in the vicinity of the oldest European city in the USA.
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Ed - thanks for posting your News Story at 111. Interesting.
I have been reading Andrew Sullivan and he suddenly went into a Friday afternoon depression that the Obama campaign was fading and McCain was stamping all over him.
Given an Obama-free week when he could hog the headlines, McCain seems to have got over-excited about the possibility of a new war and sent out all sorts of mixed messages on all other issues.
There will be a lot of water under the bridge between now and November (after all we've opened and then closed a small war in seven days flat) and Obama needs to come back refreshed from the surf, take control of all the arguments and send out a clear uncluttered message in clear, uncluttered language.
He can start all that with the reverend gent. this weekend and then take it on to Denver - where I believe that the Clintons would be very unwise to do anything but to behave very, very well.
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Hmmm (chewing pen, thinking...)
Mr. Webb, I am not surprised by much of this, not terribly shocked at all: something like this was going to come out. However, I wonder if you have seen this from other angles, because I am not sure if you are reading why the dice fell where they did correctly (please excuse length, sadly, I get winded when I burn a few neurons:)
First, Obama cannot win without Clinton's voters. That is for damned sure: Clinton's main base includes liberal women 45-65, the bra burners of yesteryear: they don't have the same experience of the world their daughters (Gen X and Y) do: I am 25. I grew up with Janet Reno, Madeleine Albright, and others wielding enormous amounts of power, and I can gratefully expect to have these rights because of this older generation's work. They see in Clinton a carrier of that torch and are rabid about it-finally, the coronation of their ideals.
On the other hand, American women 20-40 years old also have had the experience of parents slaving away at jobs that have demanded more and more hours away from home over the years with less and less reward (my generation didn't coin the terms "quality time," "latchkey child," or "Enron".). We have had to endure the quality of education in this country get worse with schools overcrowded or crumbling, and politicians as demagogues or snake oil salesmen. We have to shoulder enormous burdens as Mom retires. We don't have time for lofty speeches about a first female president; hell, Boris Johnson could sashay on stage in drag to claim the nomination the sex of the future president matters so little to us! We don't have enough voters yet to counter the effect of the bra burners: Obama knows this and knows a bunch of disillusioned yahoos and their champ could do him harm in a general election where the Republicans still have weasels like Rove and others sleazing about, be enough to tip the scales.-It is a question of common sense, not backbone, and a question of demographics.
Second, Hillary: this is about her ego as much as it is about the bra burning faction getting heard. She has schemed for the elections since she took Senator Moynihan's spot after he left office. She's been politically prepping herself since Georgetown days and been a wheeler dealer behind the scenes with her husband Bill, even in the face of his indiscretions. Her vindictive streak has been whispered about for decades and trust me, she has vaporized, not burned, a few bridges and careers. Maureen Dowd wrote a brilliant piece in the New York Times about her sins and though I don't agree with her that it will be all Bill all the time at the convention, I do agree with her reproaching Hillary Clinton's behavior-I think it is on the mark, and you would do well to read it, Mr. Webb.
Last, the convention: What should happen? They should not let Bill speak, or at least not for long: this is not his election. (Somebody has to remind him he isn't in charge anymore.) They should let Hilary stand by herself and do the roll call as planned, but she should point to the change that has passed thus far and call it a prelude of what is to come in Barack Obama. This is likely not going to come to pass, but whatever comes next, it is likely going to be a big, big, BIG noise.
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Xie Ming,
MikeIL is perhaps excessively optimistic. No common, or "decent", American public high school curriculum in the last quarter century covers the Spanish-American war in much depth, let alone the machinations that resulted in it. Mike, you either had a great, avid high school American history teacher, or you're a history buff yourself, and YOU read in depth about the Spanish-American war, and just don't recall the fact you HEARD about it in class but TAUGHT YOURSELF the details.
And, Xie Ming, as for "demonstrating it myself", Lodge/Hearst "conspiracy" to inflame that war is not at all unknown to me. It's just that virtually no one remembers, or has even ever heard of, Lodge or Mahan -- also recall Roosevelt was not a naval officer, but did essentially run the navy at the time, using, as I believe, Mahan himself as his official mouthpiece for directives, when that was required, as he was widely taken as "official" head of the navy, anyway -- and while we may call Hearst a titan of industry, few would readily call him a great American hero. T. Roosevelt, we would, eagerly. And it was Roosevelt, ostensible man of honor and heroic historical figure, who avidly, and publicly, supported the Spanish-American War, although his goals were more focused on a test of "his" navy than on the Lodge/Hearst goals, which were related to business ambitions and personal wealth. So, T. Roosevelt being the prevalent historical figure widely considered in this country to possess a near pure soul of American gold, also being the man who selfishly supported this war and the resulting collateral damage to both Americans and other nationals -- a war not at all necessary for the defense of US security or sovereignty -- all for the purpose of trying out that muscular new navy he'd been key in creating. So, I simplified. Mammoth books can and have been written on the Spanish-American War, and I'd already written about a book for a mere blog comment, so I skipped certain details. Which is, of course, the problem with the "Internet generations", for whom, for the sake of brevity, critical details are regularly skipped, leaving an incomplete or even wholly false impression of what we know of history.
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Ed Rendell just suggested now on Weasel News that Hillary might yet be the VP!!
However, another theory is that he's going to pick another woman like Kathy Sebelius or Janet Napolitano. So he needs all this preparation and sucking up in order to placate the expected backlash.
That would perhaps be the best way to stick two fingers up at the Clintons and send them packing!
However, Drudge is reporting that it may John Kerry!
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Would not rule out Evan Bayh from Indiana for the VP slot. Obama is going to pick someone he gets along with and who fits in with his message of change. Rendell is dreaming (as is Clinton).
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#118
Further to your point: the American public was inflammed (by the Hearst press) over the "atrocities" the cruel Spaniards were inflicting on the helpless Cubans!
All false, of course.
_________________________
#124
My memory is dim, so I would ask, if Teddy Roosevelt was running up San Juan Hill with his Rough Riders, what was his connection with Washington office?
_________________
The last time I checked, the service academy graduates did not know about the machinations.
The Congress, however, was more than sceptical, and had an Inquiry into the blowing up of the Maine in Havana harbour- thinking the plotters might have arranged it themselves.
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Candace,
Bayh may come with unwanted baggage
;-)
ed
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Roosevelt left his Washington appointment -- can't recall at the moment what it was; may have been cabinet-level, completely non-military I think -- to the lead the Rough Riders he had founded. Roosevelt had a pretty storied political background before he led the Rough Riders, before he became president. American history, as taught regarding to T. Roosevelt, focuses mostly on the military heroism angle with the Rough Riders, and his presidential years. And the Teddy Bear yarn, for color -- which is essentially just more propaganda for what a kind, gentle soul TR possessed under that brass hide of his.
As for Cuba, yeah, we were always very concerned about the embattled citizens of Cuba, especially when it came to impoverishing and virtually starving them, setting their society back decades, to protect the poor dears them from the likes of Fidel Castro. (No implication of a personal position for/against Castro intended, just that protecting a people from a leader not disposed to negotiation may well be accomplished by isolating the whole of them in the short term, yet a long-term, unyielding isolation can come perilously close to destroying their society.)
Last I read, some established maritime researchers -- with consultations from various field-specific experts, as required -- went through the material and evidence collected as related to the Maine and determined that be it Spanish act of war, plotters' sabotage or accident, although it's today impossible to determine to a standard that would, say, hold up in a US criminal court, the most likely cause of the Maine incident was that it was just an accident, period.
To bring this back on topic, I'm not heavily invested in the issue, but had I to bet fifty dollars, I'd put that money on selection of Senator Clinton as running mate for Senator Obama. Had I to bet a thousand dollars, I'd decline to wager.
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Friends,
All this talk of ambulance chasers and such shows a biased and not very thought out view point. To change market practice the fines must be punitive enough to change the market's view of profitability. Edwards and such are simply instruments to that end. The Mcdonald's case is always misquoted. In one class that I had the joy to take in my political philosophy and ethics cluster used it as a positive example. It also shows sadly those protected (working class views of lawyers in general) biting the hand that protects them.
Here are some facts, though really this is a kinder view than some I have read...
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm
In Florida pesticide companies are testing on children. The hope to stop this kind of behavior is BIG settlements...
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NoRashDecisions, #102, I would like to answer
your questions.
I take your point that our distrust of big government
is partly a result of our history. But, in the modern
era, we entered a period of emphasis on government
solutions to social and economic problems in
the 1930's, and this largely ran its course by
the 1980's. (IMHO)
Part of the reasons are demographic; people are
living longer, and large social entitlements are
unlikely to be solvent in the years ahead. So,
even if we wanted to return to the (modest) social
safety net which previous generations enjoyed,
it would not be possible. Americans invest too
much and save too little.
Another reason is size. It's a lot easier to
set up something like the NHS in a small
country like the UK or Germany than in
the US. And, we're not particularly good at
running these bureaucracies.
About the press - I don't see anything in our
press which reflects the diversity of opinion
across the American social and political
landscape. It seems to be used by vested
interests to ensure social conformity and
sell us stuff. This is one of the reasons why
I enjoy reading the foreign press, although,
I admit, the fact that I am only fluent in
English limits my choices in this regard.
Now, the Georgian situation. This is very
dangerous. The Russians are exploiting our
current vulnerability in being tied down in
Iraq to reoccupy their former empire.
The 21st century is increasingly looking like
the 19th, not the 21st. I am not aware of
the complete sequence of events regarding
this conflict, but it appears to be a little too
convenient from the Russian point of view.
As far as all of the various tales of ethnic
cleansing is concerned, I admit that I
instinctively retain a view of European
soldiers with funny hats gleefully burning
down villagers' huts while the occupants
are tied to stakes in their dwellings. All of
this takes place under the guise of state or
religious loyalty, or because the victims'
language is derived differently from
proto Indo-European.
But, I think that the various stories being
circulated about such atrocities may be false.
And, there are many other factors which
cause me to dismiss these claims as
suspect.
What is at stake are the following items:
1. Veracity of the United States as an ally.
Do we cut and run when one of our closest
allies is overrun? I don't think that we can
do this.
2. Do we let the Russians control a large part
of the energy supply to central and western
Europe? They have effectively done this
by cutting Georgia in two.
3. Do we let the Russians intimidate our other
allies, such as the Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians,
Estonians, Rumanians, Germans, Bulgarians,
or others who were never willingly under
Russian domination? I don't think that we
can allow those who shoulder their share
of the burden to be intimidated by the Russians.
So, what can we do about it? The popular
opinion in the press is that we can do little,
but in fact we can do a lot. We can make
life extremely uncomfortable for the Russians.
We saw the first step yesterday when the
US agreed to Polish demands in basing
the interceptor system. They demanded that
we sell them more military hardware and
station American personnel on their territory.
I would expect that we would see a similar
agreement emerge with the Ukrainians if
they feel threatened by the Russians.
I think that if you have read my previous comments
on this blog, that you will probably come to
the conclusion that I am generally moderate
in my opinions. But, I believe that this is a
defining moment in Western civilization;
while I do not advocate attacking Russia,
I do believe that we should help our friends
defend themselves.
As far as exactly what kind of help we should
send, this would depend upon circumstance,
but, the situation is more dire than it may
seem, given Georgia's strategic position.
We should be prepared to exert whatever
measures are necessary to force the Russians
out of there.
As far as the Russians helping us with Iran,
I believe at this point that they have shown
themselves to be opportunistically hostile
to the West.
Here is the kind of mentality that we're dealing
with:
http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20080815/API/808150741
I would expect that if the Kremlin does not
retract these remarks, that we will shortly
be sending Pershing II missiles armed with
nuclear weapons to Poland to deter a Russian
attack. We have done this before with other
NATO allies when they were threatened.
The ABM system would NOT be effective
against the Russians, but those Pershings
sure would.
The only way to deter a bear is to swat it on
the nose, otherwise it will eat you. Somehow,
the Russians are under the mistaken impression
that they can intimidate our allies.
BTW, I would like to make it clear that I am
not in the military, but, if Justin wants to phone
around, I'm sure that he will find that my opinions
are not uncommon in the US defense establishment.
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This is a title from an article in the current New York Review of Books:
"By Jane Mayer
Seven years after al-Qaeda's attacks on America, as the Bush administration slips into history, it is clear that what began on September 11, 2001, as a battle for America's security became, and continues to be, a battle for the country's soul."
Does it inspire any thoughtful comment?
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addendum to 131, I have been advised that
all of the Pershings have been destroyed,
so we would have to send something else.
But, you get the idea. We're not going to
let the Russians threaten our allies.
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132 yes. a very observant lady.
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America's "soul" - a fascinating construct from the folks who brought the world: Wounded Knee, the Ku Klux Klan, and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
A country run by and for Robber Barons and built on the illusion that said country is a "classless" society. A country in which child mortality and no-health-coverage numbers continue to rise ever more astronomically.
A country whose national song would more properly be the version of "Onward Christian Soldiers" that was satirized by the IWW. Check it out: Christians at War
Written by John F, Kendrick
(IWW Songs, 9th. Edition, 1916)
"Onward, Christian soldiers! Duty's way is plain;
Slay your Christian neighbors, or by them be slain,
Pulpiteers are spouting effervescent swill,
God above is calling you to rob and rape and kill,
All your acts are sanctified by the Lamb on high;
If you love the Holy Ghost, go murder, pray and die.
Onward, Christian soldiers! Rip and tear and smite!
Let the gentle Jesus bless your dynamite.
Splinter skulls with shrapnel, fertilize the sod;
Folks who do not speak your tongue deserve the curse of God.
Smash the doors of every home, pretty maidens seize;
Use your might and sacred right to treat them as you please.
Onward, Christian soldiers! Eat and drink your fill;
Rob with bloody fingers, Christ okays the bill,
Steal the farmers' savings, take their grain and meat;
Even though the children starve, the Saviour's bums must eat,
Burn the peasants' cottages, orphans leave bereft;
In Jehovah's holy name, wreak ruin right and left.
Onward, Christian soldiers! Drench the land with gore;
Mercy is a weakness all the gods abhor.
Bayonet the babies, jab the mothers, too;
Hoist the cross of Calvary to hallow all you do.
File your bullets' noses flat, poison every well;
God decrees your enemies must all go plumb to hell.
Onward, Christian soldiers! Blight all that you meet;
Trample human freedom under pious feet.
Praise the Lord whose dollar sign dupes his favored race!
Make the foreign trash respect your bullion brand of grace.
Trust in mock salvation, serve as tyrant's tools;
History will say of you: 'That pack of G.. D.. fools' "
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NoRashDecisions, I wasn't kidding about the
F-16s. The Poles have 48 on order, and since
they live in a crappy neighborhood, they may
want to buy more, as well as other weapons
systems.
Here's a news report, which is amusing because
of the advertisement for "Russian Beauties":
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1702.html
and here is a video on youtube of a demo flight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNIcuLGC5eE
I have no doubt that if the Russians continue
to make us look good by comparison, that
half a dozen other countries in the region
will arm themselves in a similar fashion.
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130.
I agree the ambulance chaser is strong language.
what most people are probably really pissed at is the settlement lawyers in divorce cases.
that gets transfered to all lawyers.
the ones that allow the companies they work for to enron, or treat workers like cattle, or slaves.
Those that have made the arguments that have kept big tobacco from paying out.
Ambulance chasers are the good guys most of the time.
they at least look for the victim.
Now those that witness an accident and run to defend the drunk senator from complications of running into a child (lets say) they may be the ones that should be called Ambulance wreckers.
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131 GnR
I would agree you are normally a moderate.
and normally you take more than just our side as americans point of view, but I think you may be falling into a simular hole as to the one that was dug before the Iraq war was started.
This is really more like the Iraq situation . But here it is the Russians that are the aggressors not the US.
We all do know little of life in S osetia.We do not know all the facts.
But yet america instead of trying to help the peace process along has just provoked the bear again and again. with total hipocracy.
What if Russia was to say Hey america why don't you get out of Iraq NOW. they asked you to leave, so LEAVE.
the tone you set and the right wing of america has set is offensive to most russians probably and once again shows the international community that america has no concept of diplomacy.
And once again the hype of the cold war emerges.
Not one concideration for looking for the facts(not taking sides here).
Kneejerk chants ready to take us into a war we can never fight let alone win
sound like the run up to the iraqi war.
I would say to all that say america is this better than you place , that america is at the moment showing the same dumb bravado as they did before Iraq. and if it continues you will all have to listen to another bunch of"why couldn't they just shut up. america ruined it AGAIN"
let the russians behave as we do. or change our own behaviours.
but if these two young and revolutionary countries that have so many resources and might want look like two entitled brat argueing about who is the biggest , the toughest the rest of the world will have to pay the price if they scuffle in the house and i am sure some china will get broken. but not the one that both these nations fear so much.
this reaction of yours if typical will be the final undoing of america.If the russians wish it to go that way.
in other words "shut up and don't give them the excuse they need"
the defence shield is one of the stupidest plans around and NO ONE wants it.But the american neocon arms industry that will get the contract.
A contract to GUARANTEE america is weaker in the future.
If as you say it has no way of stopping Russia but pershings do then it is useless.terrorist and rouge states do not need to build big missiles really.
the defence shield is the provocation that has riled russia.
maybe this could have been avoided if we had just stopped the unwanted (by anyone) missile shield.
Oh and nations hoping to get some money from the states and a good deal on weapons are not saying they want the shield they just want the US cash. and a deal.
.
"the only way to deter a bear is to swat it on
the nose, otherwise it will eat you. Somehow,
the Russians are under the mistaken impression
that they can intimidate our allies."
one they can they have.
and
two I think the rangers say curl up is wiser but swatting on the nose an animal with a longer reach and a heavy hit is not wise and is most certainly not advised by those that live in Bear country.
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Grrlie
That is perfect.
thanks.
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jacksforge, what upsets me is the degree of
Russian deception, and their threats to Poland.
As I said, it's hard to find someone who
makes us look good. I didn't support the Iraq war,
but I have to grudgingly admit that McCain was
right - Putin is evil.
As far as the bears go (and you should know,
since you live up there), maybe a swat on the
nose is not enough.
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As far as the missile shield goes, it doesn't
have a chance of working. So, I would gladly
have supported giving the Russians the technology.
But, that was before Georgia.
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Xie Ming, that is certainly thought provoking, and quite true, I'm afraid. Unlike the Wilson comparison I made about WWI, and the overall lesser but still striking restrictions -- for example, internment of Japanese residing in America; not just nationals, not just naturalized citizens, but even native-born citizens -- to civil rights imposed by FDR during WWII, the current policies of the Bush administration are secondary to an open-ended war, the so-called War on Terror, and therefore these restrictions on American civil rights, and precluding our nominal judicial process in these matters, are open-ended, too.
In a nutshell, it is my belief that if we radically alter our American way of life, by tradition grounded in our American civil rights, to protect against siege of some sort by those who are our enemies and those we perceive as our enemies, then the siege has been won by our enemies: We become "safer" but also become not-America; ergo, we've lost this war, certainly.
For Grrrlie, that's grossly unfair. Do you today malign Germany as the country that brought us the Holocaust? I certainly do not. Hitler's Third Reich was not every German, just as the Klan is not every American. All nations have their nasty acts of the past; native Americans were massacred not only by the United States but under the auspices of the Crown, too. That's not something I'd spit at the UK over. As a matter of fact, we fought a couple of big wars against England, and then we fought a couple of big wars alongside her. The past must be studied, and is something from which to learn, but to count the merits of a nation by what she did a century or more in the past is unreasonable.
As for the mockery of Christians, you're not really mocking Christians. This small, but still alarmingly large, I'll grant, bunch of so-called fundamentalist Christians are NOT Christians. Not by any Bible I've ever read, and I'm familiar with several of the English translations, both long-venerated and rather more contemporary. They're kidding themselves to call themselves Christians. So, as for them, I advise you, don't feed the animals. The more their hypocritical doctrine is ignored, the better, and the sooner perhaps the movement will fade into ignominy -- although it will almost surely never die out, and will keep coming round in cycles.
I'm fatigued with anti-American sentiment because I'm an American and I'm suffering under three burdens at the moment: I'm reasonably concerned about the future of my country as valuable member of the world community; I'm painted black with the same brush you use for the actions of the American government although I disagree mightily with our current policies of aggression, self-righteousness and, frankly, lunatic hubris; and I've watched friends I formerly counted as rational, reasonable, humane people become swayed by the fear-mongering into supporting current administration policies, policies excessively harsh to ourselves, and to other nations and peoples.
I live in one of the greatest "hawk" regions of the US, but I live in a large urban area, in a virtual small city within a greater city, with a very high population of first, second and third-generation Asian and Mid-South Asians residents, some with permanent resident status, some naturalized citizens, some native-born citizens. Although I'm a white American descended from Mayflower settlers (seriously, a couple of family members have independently traced this heritage), but living as we do, smack in the middle of the staunchest supporters of current administration policy, alongside a population who will be, merely due to their physical features, forever considered "alien", we all keep our heads down and go about our lives in our quiet, rather insular community. I'm grateful for that, a measure of peace with a home in a sort of cross-cultural no man's land in which no one from the greater world of American nationalists right by us would ever want to live. Here, these people of non-white, foreign heritage, and the whites who have chosen to live here, stay here and are content here, you will find in my opinion the most American of Americans. I grew up being taught in school the great pride of America as "melting pot", a culture of immigrants from many lands; I don't know what happened to the rest of my country, but at the moment those who seem to have laid siege to the America I was taught to take pride in, they can well have the mess they've made.
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In reply to #135, Grrrlie:
Show me a nation that has not sinned, and they may cast the first stone.
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G'nR,
Aye, but how did we ensure his rise?And, ironically, we return to the sacred topic of this thread, and the observation that Obama is following Churchill's dictum of magnanimity!Salaam, etc.
ed
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To montyairline:
You said "...In a nutshell, it is my belief that if we radically alter our American way of life, by tradition grounded in our American civil rights, to protect against siege of some sort by those who are our enemies and those we perceive as our enemies, then the siege has been won by our enemies: We become "safer" but also become not-America; ergo, we've lost this war, certainly..."
I am British. We are going and have been through the same process of draconian law change. I have no problem with it. I do not believe that law is the basis of our national character or culture - insofar as there are such things or that they are desirable anyway.
I believe that people are what make cultures and character. If the people in power want to do unjust things to other people, I will individually not be able to stop them. I prefer to think that they will not want to do such things or that we, the society collectively will stop them if they do. Not the law, but people, will stop them. Perhaps using some elements of law, perhaps not. I certainly like to think that I will stand up if there has been injustice.
I live in a country without a written constitution. I am glad that is the case for just the reason I cited - and because constitutions cause a lot of problems. The most recent was the Irish constitution in trouble with the EU. I am on the side of the Irish constitution in that argument but perhaps not in earlier years when the same constitution with its anti-abortion and other catholic doctrine based provisions was an obstacle to understanding with Northern Ireland.
I don't say that I have more trust in people than you - it seems to me that you have a great deal of trust in people. Perhaps it's that I do not see law as justice or as any safeguard to liberty.
There was a substantial body of law in Nazi Germany. I agree with you that Nazism casts no shadow on modern Germany - but it does cast a shadow on law, democracy - Hitler was elected - and Science, for that matter. There were scientists in the then-popular eugenics movement who could prove that Jews and black people were inferior.
The Soviet system also had a body of law which permitted the imprisoning of dissidents in psychiatric institutions. The argument was - and it was serious, not politically contrived as far as I can tell - that they must be certifiable to disagree with the model communist system.
I support - and always have - the war in Iraq, for instance. I believe it saved people's lives.
For the same reason, I would support a war in Darfur. It's gone practically unnoticed but Sudan has launched another attack- possibly using the Olympics as cover - in northern Darfur
The BBC story (Wednesday, 13 August 2008 16:43) says "...The government was trying to clear the rebels out of the far north of Darfur so that Chinese companies could explore for oil, [a rebel leader] said.
North Darfur is part of Sudan's oil Block 12A, operated by a consortium led by the Saudi Arabian company al-Qahtani, the BBC's Amber Henshaw reports from Sudan..."
Where are the protesters ? hundreds of thousands have died in Darfur and little protest happens in western countries. We care too much about ourselves - which is what protests against the Iraq War were about.
This is people's failing. The Darfur war, like the Iraq War represents no pressing self-interest. It is interesting always to hear protesters about the Iraq War saying on the one hand, how could we be so unpleasant to foreigners and on the other, how is it in our national interest to help them ?
I am sure we could agree on many things. I used to live in a mainly Indian community in East London. The children were better behaved because of Indian culture and the Saris in summer were truly beautiful. I hope your experience is as good.
To Gary_A_Hill:
In an earlier comment, I said that calling British people 'English' was an Americanism. Actually, I didn't say that exactly but you did later.
What I was intending to convey was that we all tend to treat America as though it had no historic link to Britain - specifically England.
Admittedly the link is tenuous but it's there. I believe the Americans call British people 'English' because when montyairline's ancestors left, that was the country they left. The Act of Union with Scotland was not signed until 1707 and it was from then that 'Britain' started to gain ground.
There was a documentary on ITV in Britain a couple of years ago which looked at some aspects the English language. Interestingly, the American spellings which do not have a 'u' - like 'flavor' or 'neighbor' are the original English spellings. English written in Britain was apparently influenced by French spellings during the 19th century.
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While it is true that most Americans don't support or condone many of the policies and actions taken by our government, it is also true that our ambivalence enables and facilitates those policies and actions.
I find the overt hypocracy of our recent condemnations of actions taken by China and Russia in Tibet and Georgia downright embarrassing. We must understand and accept the fact that when we invade developing nations to satisfy geo-political or economic goals we are setting a precedent for other powerful nations to emulate.
It is also important to consider that when we provoke other superpowers the way we have been provoking Russia with the installation of a missile defense shield in former Soviet republics we can expect a reaction. Imagine what we would have done if Russia had done the same (the Cuban missile crisis comes to mind).
The biggest loser in the Russia-Georgia crisis is not Georgia, but us who after making promises and encouraging the Georgian government to support our reckless interests we abandoned them to their fate.
A nation can only claim the moral high ground through deeds. Our recent political strategy of calling anyone that opposes us a terrorist is not convincing anyone and it is making us look cynical and duplicitous in the eyes of the world...and our own. Consider the double standard of categorizing anyone that resists our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan a terrorist and "enemy combatant" (thanks Alberto for making a mockery of human rights and international law), while we give safe heaven to the likes of Mr. Posada, the Cuban-born CIA operative that blew up a Venezuelan airliner in 1976.
It is time we stand up and demand competence, honesty and adherence to domestic and internation law from our government. If they are incapable of delivering, throw the bums out.
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GULF WAR SYNDROME
This may involve both the US and British.
Does anyone know anything about it?
It so, what does it include, in addition to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?
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Ed, I pretty much agree with the article, but
the reaction of Eastern Europe is complete
fear and consternation that the Russians
intend to reoccupy their countries.
This whole situation was simmering for
a few months before the outbreak of
hostilities, as reported in:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1409664.php/Medvedev_to_face_off_with_post-Soviet_leaders_of_Ukraine_Georgia
I was against admitting Ukraine to NATO,
but that was before the Georgia incident.
We probably would have to extend our
military protection to them now if the
Russians threaten them, or suffer a great
loss of credibility across the globe.
Not, of course, that it matters what I think.
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#146
One recurrent query in this thread has been whether the public recognises the "duplicitousness" of US law and spin
or, whether the majority believe the public discourse that they are being fed.
[This is one tremendous service of the BBC.
In how many papers in the USA could such heretical views be aired?]
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Of course, there is always the possibility of
a diplomatic solution, to the extent that we agree
not to admit Georgia to NATO in exchange
for a Russian withdrawal, more or less along
the lines of what we negotiated with the Russians
over Cuba in 1962.
But, somehow, I do not think that things will stop there.
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#145 I did not say that right.
When I said 'people' I really mean 'people and ideas' - and in a sense 'people and ideas' means 'culture'.
The good and the bad of culture that I was trying to get across are that on the one hand, it is a culture of justice that I would rely on above the law or a constitution - over any temporary and draconian changes to the law - to bail out British and probably American society...
...on the other hand, media manipulation of values which I believe has occurred over the Iraq War and Darfur will mean that those same people will not help out others when it is not in their received self-interest.
I use that expression because the media purveys a concept of self-interest in which individuals may not share.
Some years ago, in the Comic Relief night in Britain, Lenny Henry, a comedian, tried to convey it when he talked about someone you knew needing a quid because he was down and out. You would say here, take it.. ..no take a fiver.
We do not think of starving peoples or Iraqis or the Fur people this way. I do not believe that is an essential problem of humanity. I believe it is in large part due to media portrayals of alien and difficult war-ridden societies.
They still need the fiver.
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Gulf War Syndrome: Associated with the Persian Gulf war of 1991, It's a catchall diagnosis for a collection of symptoms that may include behavioral, psychiatric and/or physical pathology. PTSD is just one of the symptoms that may or may not be present; and it's been argued that what presents as PTSD is actually not PTSD, but a manifestation underlying physical, rather than behavioral or psychiatric, pathology. It's also been proposed that GWS is secondary to side effects of drugs intended to dampen the effects of exposure to chemical weapon, or actually small exposures to those weapon compounds, or even to burning raw crude oil. Also reported to cause sterility and a variety of other unusual symptoms.
GWS is primarily used as a diagnosis so the symptoms of GWS present in the individual patient may be treated in accordance with what seems to "work" for GWS in general. Sort of like calling alcoholism a disease. It's not a disease, but was so named so that it could be treated by a disease model, which runs the gamut of purpose, everything from the use of medication in alcoholics when indicated, hospitalization in a medical facility as necessary, and supporting documentation for medical insurance payment on such treatment.
It's presently impossible to know what causes GWS, if it is indeed a distinct pathology. It may be forever impossible to know, as among the soldiers returning from the Persian Gulf conflict of the 1990s, there are going to be a certain number of former combatants and support personnel who suffer from stress-related illness, respiratory illness, a number who will later become sterile, or were sterile when they went but were not aware until they returned, etc. None of these symptoms really match up with known side effects of the prophylactic medicines the soldiers were given or to other kinds of environmental exposures they are likely to have encountered. Basically, who knows? It could be entirely psychiatric or behavioral in nature, or it could be wholly a physical pathology based on exposure to a combination of compounds we heretofore were unaware would cause such a disease when acting in concert on the human body.
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G'nR,
As a denizen of Silicon Valley, you can certainly appreciate that this
is a lot more elegant than your inordinately long url ;-)
Of course, there's always tinyurl, which gives
http://tinyurl.com/6luqx3
;-)
ed
links and
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G'nR,
As a denizen of Silicon Valley, you can certainly appreciate that this
is a lot more elegant than your inordinately long url ;-)
Of course, there's always tinyurl, which gives
http://tinyurl.com/6luqx3
;-)
ed
(links and hints on html in comments)
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Ref 148
"We probably would have to extend our
military protection to them now if the
Russians threaten them, or suffer a great
loss of credibility across the globe".
The fact that the USA has a military presence in 120 countries has not deterred Russia from repelling Georgian attacks in South Ossetia, in fact, our military presence in Eastern Europe is the reason for the latest developments. The same goes for China's actions in Tibet.
The chances of the USA engaging Russian troops if they invade Eastern European countries are slim to none. There are limits to our goals of surrounding Russian with a missile defense shield and expanding our sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, particularly when corporate profitability is not an inducement.
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The following may be of interest or amusement:
The rest of the article is, as usual, well worth the time.;-)
ed
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Putting the 'O' in GOP?
Lawsuits?! We don't remember any stinking lawsuits
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Russia's excuse regarding the need to protect Russian citizens in South Ossetia remind me of "Operation Urgent Fury", the flamboyant name given to the invasion of Grenada, the tiniest independent nation in the Western Hemisphere, in 1983. Like the Russians today, we justified that invasion using the pretext of "rescuing" American medical students from grave danger. Alas, the closest thing to a threat involved 700 Cuban construction workers who were building an airport in that island. Political considerations and paranoia aside, what surprised me the most is that American medical students attend school in places like Grenada.
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morning all.
here's a good show from the states, Bill Moyers.
and this topic and the views of this officer are SPOT ON.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08152008/profile.html
watch the video.
And you will see it is not just us foreign born nationals that say america's population has to take some responsibillity here.
Sorry folks
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/432/index.html
this is on how popular the boarder fence is. Now do these people start looking like palistinians ,difference if they probably voted for it a couple of years ago before the route decision was made.
watch the vids.Ed you will probably see the irony of the fence quite amusing. and if you could do the blue link great for the others.
Obama is the only one who has kept reasonable about Geargia..
Mc Cains posturing is rediculas.
Bush as bad, they look like comedians at he moment, the whole world will be laughing at their hipocracy.
Then to Washington week where even the moderator Gwen Iffle , seems to skip right by some very pertinant facts in order to allow the "typical" american thinking to prevail in her discussion.
Like maybe we are not holding the moral high ground here.
Maybe we are but really there has been no real analysis of what is going on.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/
even so with no real understanding of is georgia behaving as they should and should we address those concerns of the s osetians . the fact hat we were all warned that things were heading to a conflict with russia because of the shield and kosovo etc.
If you were dupped into Iraq then you are being blindfolded in america to the realities of the world, again.
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DominickVila #158
You left wingers have a screw loose. And you don't know history. Granada was invaded because Cuba was taking control over it in its effort to spread Communism throughtout the region. The local leader was a nut case who believed in some kind of spirit world. Cuba had been moving in with military force under the aegis of the USSR. Governments from all over the Carribean begged the US to put a stop to it just the way Europeans begged the US to put a stop to the genocide in Kosovo.
There is no apology needed for killing communists who take over governments any more than killing Islamo-fascists who have the same goal. There is no equivalence. It's a matter of the civilized world defending itself. Just because you don't see the threat doesn't mean it isn't real. Stick your head back in the sand, it's safe where you are for the moment....maybe.
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Candace you would probably find amusing the tale in the fence part on boing designing a "virtual" fence and then the boarder patrol came along and said"it would,a helped if you talked to us first.
Mostly erronious will like the bit where they describe how over budget behind and ineffective the Boarder fence is , how it steels land from peple( a very european thing to do) and how it is BOeing that are making such a mess of it.
They are all rushing to get the fence in before the dems win the election.
What has europe done? is bound to be on topic for him(as always) for the weekend.
on this bbc AMERICA blog.
well they did build a great big tunnel.
but really boeing can't even build a fence.
live free live safe live in delusion.
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Bill Moyers is one of the reasons Congress pulled back its funding of PBS. He left for greener pastures making lots of money at CBS. Now he's back on PBS with more of his left wing tripe. How long before Congress gets so fed up it pulls the rest of its funding out and lets PBS die. The Annanburg Foundation can't support it all. The end will come after Conservatives regain control over Congress when Obama Inc. flops and America is fed up with the Democrats. I'd say about 4 years will do it.
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jf #161
Why would I want a border fence? A mine field would be far more effective.
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"what surprised me the most is that American medical students attend school in places like Grenada." We call them, collectively, Our Lady of The Offshore School of Medicine (I can't claim credit, but I can't recall the attribution at the moment).
American medical students who attend medical programs in Grenada and the Dominican Republic can't get into American med schools. It's no automatic reflection on their ultimate ability or intelligence, but it is a clear commentary on how serious they were about their marks as undergraduate pre-med students and how well they learned the material necessary to show decent marks on the MCAT.
Some Americans also attend medical school in Cuba, under special exception to the travel ban for education purposes, but apparently this is more because the cost of their undergrad educations wiped out their resources and they can't afford American medical schools, even with a loan, and the fact it's impossible for most people to hold any job and attend an American med school.
American states license physicians, and general and specialty board certifications cross state boundaries. It's complex, considering there are FIFTY different sets of licensing rules for physicians (and licensing in one state does not confer license for permanent practice in any other state, although, depending on the state, some physicians licensed in other states may practice under the "umbrella" of a hospital where they are on staff, save in states where hospitals are forbidden by law from employing physicians as staff, and physicians practicing at that hospital must form their own private practices and then contract with hospital, or bill patients separately even though they may not be a patient's physician but just caught the case -- see what I mean about complex?).
But, generally speaking, people receiving medical doctorates in other countries must complete at least one year of US residency to practice in the US. But there are sometimes exceptions for residencies completed abroad that meet certain standards, or physicians who can present documentation of qualified practice for some years in their home country... It's a mess. But, in which case, some foreign-educated physician may simply pass the US boards to receive a license in the state in which they desire to practice. It depends on the state laws as to medical licensing.
You see why many Americans you'd think would otherwise see the benefit of a national healthcare system are against it? Our current system of education, licensing and payment is Byzantine beyond belief, old, creaky, patched together, but medical professionals and business administrators know enough about it so that people who can access healthcare get some of the best hands-on care in the world, while we fall far short in the best large-scope delivery mechanism. There's a great deal of concern that in tearing apart the current system to provide for national healthcare, it would take so long to rebuild the system MOST people would suffer a degradation in care.
I'm a proponent of national healthcare, but I also think that if my family needs it, we might be better off becoming permanent residents of Sweden over supporting it in America. There is no consistency in licensing, etc. In some states nurse practitioners can prescribe medication, some states that's only non-controlled substances, some states only under the auspices of the physician by whom they are employed. Some states, a dermatologist can perform neurosurgery or practice psychiatry without so much as a single year of surgical residency (board certification requirement is not the norm in states to practice in a specialty), if he so desires, others he can only practice dermatology and go into general practice -- one year of residency, called internship, provides for a license to practice general medicine, though not necessarily "family medicine", which requires a residency program therein to be board certified, programs requiring a two or three year program, inclusive of program year 1, or "internship". Some hospitals allow physicians without board certification privileges to practice any specialty they wish in that hospital; some require board certification for privileges other then general practice, even if state law makes no such demand.
And that's just a brief snapshot of practice license and certifications. Okay, people, stop laughing before you pass out. (Recall the US was until the latter half of the 19th century intended to be a fairly loose union of independent states, and much of our founding law is focused only on that model -- one reason we have so few federal protections for things like labor: the Constitution, written to weakly bind these handful of independent states, provides there are areas of law the federal government is prohibited from imposing, only allowed to certify state laws in this area do not violate the Constitution or applicable, facets of existing, superseding federal law.)
In all seriousness, our current areas of American unrest, discontent and strife, and the world's observation of these things, may have much to do with the fact we're operating a large, unified, substantially populated nation on basic, virtually incontrovertible law intended solely for a congenial alliance of independent states. No, this isn't a stealthy stab at a states-right lunatic's argument, but there's a point that if we're going to operate as a single, unified nation with strong, not necessarily "big", federal government, we might want to strip out a lot of our law and rewrite. Otherwise, had we stuck with independent states deal as was designed, you'd have a whole different picture: Sure, Texas would have thrown in with the federal government in a war with Iraq that is at least arguably offensive, not defensive, but if, say, New Hampshire and Illinois wanted no part of it, they would not necessarily have had to send any of their people. (That's a rough example, but the point being we're a master-planned nation with contemporary laws contrary to that design which have not so much been planned into the old model as patched into it when it was deemed absolutely necessary, or profitable, by certain leaders or market interests.)
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#161, another white elephant. We should paint the
fence white. We would be much better off spending
the money on weapons for the Mexican police
and army who are getting murdered by drug cartels
on their side of the border.
Ed, thanks for the links. Did you know that absolutely
no one will pay me to write HTML? But, I think
that I shall take it up as a hobby.
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Mostly erronious. but you great hero Charlie Rose respects and agrees with much of moyers.
that is why
as wikipedia says
"After his wife was hired by the BBC (in New York), Rose handled some assignments for the BBC on a freelance basis. In 1972, while continuing to work at Bankers Trust, he landed a job as a weekend reporter for WPIX-TV. His break came in 1974, after Bill Moyers hired Rose as managing editor for the PBS series Bill Moyers' International Report. In 1975, Moyers named Rose executive producer of Bill Moyers' Journal. Rose soon began appearing on camera. "A Conversation with Jimmy Carter," one installment of Moyers' series U.S.A.: People and Politics, won a 1976 Peabody Award. Rose worked at several networks honing his interview skills until KXAS-TV in Dallas-Fort Worth hired him as program manager and gave him the late-night time slot that would become the Charlie Rose show."
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Apparently, this missile defense system has
acquired an aura of invincibility by everybody
except us. And so, now, the Ukrainians are
apparently interested in participating:
" Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a top Russian officer, highlighted Russia's anger with the system, saying that Poland was now at risk of attack, perhaps with nuclear weapons, The Associated Press reported. View a map of the region »
Poland moved to diffuse the situation Saturday, saying it was open to Russian inspections of the missile interceptor base, AP reported. However, the Ukraine said it was interested in joining a joint missile defense system with other European countries.
Ukraine Foreign Ministry spokesman Liubov Abravitova would not specify if it was referring to the U.S. system. Video Watch devastation in port of Poti »
"
The full article is here
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160 by your arguement if they think us unjustified they can kill us and it is fair nuff. ok
because I am sure they feel the same way.
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Charlie Rose's opinions are irrelevant. His skill is his ability to conduct an interview, clearly something he didn't learn from BBC. That Moyers hired him is also irrelevant. The value of Rose as an interviewer is that he DOES NOT EVER interject his own opinions, one mistake BBC interviewers NEVER fail to make. Charlie Rose's interviews are completely about the interviewee, not about the interviewer.
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g n r but a very expensive white elephant.
that is a good term to use after all the white elephant was meant to be a burdon in the future.
MA again as ignorant as can be.
the fence is going up a couple of miles inside the american border.America just gave a two thousand mile strip two miles wide to mexico.
people (americans) are being seperated from their own property, or they face a life time of being under worse survilence than if they were in London.
Mines along th eproposed rout would kill only americans , and the legal working farm folk that have to loose their land to imminent domain, and the total free for all because the homeland security chief has been given the right to waive ANY law in order to make this"wall".
watch get educated then come back.
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It is surprising that the American missile defense shield does not include a small nuclear warhead in each missile as its payload. That was the idea behind many prior systems like Nike X. For the US they are small, light, cheap, and highly effective. Perhaps in the real world they do but the government just doesn't want to admit to it. Hitting a bullet with a bullet just doesn't make sense especially when you consider the possible consequences if you miss. Given America's propensity for building highly effective weapons, I assume they do.
With may thousands of warheads at its disposal, no coceivable American missile defense shield will work against a Russian attack. The one being proposed is designed to defend against an attack from Iran. The alternative is to obliterate Iran before it can launch an attack or accept what many have said is unacceptable, a nuclear armed Iran. I have no problem with the elimination of another Russian client state.
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Actually, there is this island which periodically
appears in the middle of the Rio Grande, because
it is really just a sandbar.
According to our treaty with Mexico, neither
country can claim it. Somebody should set up
a gambling casino and a few taco stands down
there.
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171 again running to show your" logic".
what if Russia behaved as the US, then we would be in a war pretty quick and as you have pointed out we would all be in hell after that, because the shield will be ineffective.
Iraq in your senario just has to provoke the US and Israel to attack, and Russia will wade it.
BOOM the end. and along with the rest of the world a little spiteful failure of a boy that never grew up will perish..
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now he will complain to the mods as he does when he does not like the content because it may show him up.
as opposed to those that merely refer the mods to racist and sexist replies that are often made.
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Dear Justin,
I suggest that you limit the length of posts on this blog - if too many points are made in too many paragraphs, the thrust of the debate is lost.
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#173 jacksforge
"what if Russia behaved as the US"
Frankly, I don't see terribly much difference between the actions of superpowers, now or previously in history (and the USA may have celebrated "winning the Cold War" a little too early).
Skimming through the thread I noticed someone posting about the UK being called "England". Asa Scot it doesn't bother me that foreigners regularly do that, just as Scots often refer to the Netherlands as "Holland", or Europeans refer to the USA as "America". The most populous part of a country frequently gets the identification.
So to all my friends in the United States of California ....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
But, nuclear winter may be the ultimate cure
for global warming!
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Partisans (and I suspect the BBC) will now get behind their government and start shouting names and making threats.
Georgia attacked and killed many Russian passport-holders. Georgia is the aggressor.
NATO's defense plans used to be centered on the Fulda Gap in Germany, where it was estimated that the Russian divisions could be delayed for 15 minutes.
Bush/Britain's "encirclement" seeks to extend the capitalist empire much closer to Russia.
If the Russians leave Georgia proper, consider that a great victory and be silent!
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#152
The "Gulf War Syndrome" is taken seriously.
As I know someone about to spend several years on the subject, I am curious.
Thus, anyone having solid info is welcome.
So far, it appears that two areas of the brain are shrunken among the complaining veterans.
For Australian veterans, at least, the effect of organo-phosphates on the nervous system seems pertinent.
[Is "Chicken-hawk" a recognized species?]
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Xie_Ming, I agree with you that it would be
a great result if the Russians leave Georgia
proper. Nobody in the West really cares about
these other local conflicts, save for the human
suffering involved.
As far as the capitalism thing goes, the worst
possible thing for us would be if the Russians
discovered it. Where is Lenin when you need him?
As far as Gulf War syndromes go, I had heard
that it was possible that a combination of
vaccines was implicated in the problem.
How would our troops been exposed to
organo-phosphates?
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Ref #159
Bill Moyers is one of the poster boys for why PBS is no longer needed.
His bias and actually false statements have been exposed by the leading night time news opinion show: The O'Rielley Factor.
Moyers defended the racism of Reverand Wright
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I came across this on the UK political gambling site Before I risk any cash, a US view on their assumptions would be interesting.
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#181
The organo-phosphates issues arose mostly among the Australian troops.
Main GWS reported syndromes:
Unrefreshing sleep
Fatigue
Headaches
Difficulty Remembering
Joint pains
Nose or sinus problems
Sudden mood changes
Back problems
Muscle aches
Depression
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
183, Magic.
Rev. Wright is not racist. He is an old man who has not come to accept that the plight of blacks in America today is not the plight of blacks in the 1950's and 60's.
I remember educated blacks (of which there were not so many at that time) who could not get jobs or decent apartments. They were angry, but their despair was greater. The day of people like Rev. Write and Jesse Jackson is done, and we look to a more hopeful era. But that does not discredit the sentiments of those people who fought for the age we are now beginning to enjoy.
It is easy for you, Magic, to sit smugly and criticize a life you have never known. I am sure you did not take up the cause of black equality, as many of us did. Yes, I understand Rev. Wright, but Rev. Wright should understand that he is living on memories.
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oldnat (#184), I'd say Obama looks good in that hat, but as he's from Chicago as of late, his regular hat should be an Optimo.
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180, Xie.
Yes, organophosphates do affect the nervous system. So here is something to be aware of:
In buildings that do not have windows that open, and which are ventilated, heated and cooled through a venting system, they suppress contamination by organisms by using guess what? Organophosphates.
I will never live or work in a building that does not have windows that open and vents that you can't shut off.
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186, staphylococcus aureus.
That is true. Do you know why? One of the answers can be found in my comment #189.
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OMG, Miss Marbles was a peace marcher in the 60s. A former hippie peacenick, a flower child. How could I not have guessed? So obvious. One question Mable, how many times did you do LSD and when do you expect to come home from your latest trip. Tried any .....ecstasy?
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ref 183
First lost your marbles I am a minority, I am Jewish
Black Liberation Theology is inherinetly racists. It calls Whites the Devil.
Listen to his sermons that is all the proff you need.
Want more?
How about an award to another racist and anti-semite Louis Farakhan.
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GAH, I used to smoke those cheap stogies. I thought the dark brown wrapper looked cool. Only the gauche leave the bands on their cigars while they smoke them. Mable, do you leave the bands on? What about you CC?
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MAII (#193), stogies? An Optimo is a hat, hand-made in Chicago.
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191, staph. aureus.
You sound like you know all about the drug scene and the flash of marching and protesting.
But it was the individuals who gave jobs for blacks and tricked landlords into giving them a place to live that made the real difference. If you zoned out on drugs you couldn't accomplish much of anything.
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192, Magic.
(1) Being a minority does not confer virtue.
(2) If, out of the wealth of black literature, you pick and choose to find a group or two that are racist, it does not mean that blacks, as a whole, are racist.
(3) If blacks resent the inferiority imposed upon them by whites, is that racism, or righteous indignation?
(4) You don't seem to like blacks very much, Magic. What does that tell us about you?
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#185
This, from last year's Army Times, links
Sarin to the Gulf War Syndrome and lists the units involved:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/military_sarin_gulfwar_070525w/
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#197
Do you know the Hebrew? In English:
"You have been tried and found wanting"!
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GAH, it's also a cheap cigar.
Mable, you are as big an ignoramus as jf. Ever hear of EOE? What about federal fair housing laws? When all this happened....you were probably away on a trip.
I watched much of brightest people of my generation destroy their lives with hallucinogenic drugs. They thought they were so smart. They made NOTHING of their lives. How could they after they destroyed their minds. Now they are old and ready to retire penniless. A lifetime of wasted opportunities by minds that preferred to destroy themselves to avoid growing up and facing the world. Spoiled children who would not take responsibility for themselves. Now they will demand government enforced charity in the form of higher taxes and transfers of money from those who want to and can earn it. I say give them enough to survive but no more. They are what they made themselves to be. Pathetic.
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ref #192
Another throwing out the race card.
My orginal post was Bill Moyers bias.
On issue 2 Yes I despise everything
Wright and Farakhan stand for. I also despise everything David Duke, the KKK and the American Nazi party stand for too.
they are two sides of the same racist coin.
3. You know nothing about the prejudice Jews have to deal with in the world.
4. So because Wright and Farakhan but I admire African Americans like Condoleeza Rice an acomplishent scholar and paino player, Oprah Winfrey a sucessful media person, Juan Williams a prominant journalist that doesn't count.
You are part of the David Alexrod school call anybody you disagree with a racist.
Go back to the Pews at Reverand Wrights Church of Hate!
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Xie Ming, I didn't mean to imply that GWS shouldn't be taken seriously; I meant to state that GWS is a cluster of symptoms called "Gulf War Syndrome" with no known isolatable cause. Regional cerebral atrophy has only been detected in SOME Gulf War veterans presenting with GWS symptoms. And people walk around with benign variants of normal in the brain all the time -- they never know about them unless they fall and hit their heads, or have some other reason to get a CT or MRI. There used to be a fair amount of concern about choroid plexus cysts, until research indicated plenty of choroid plexus cysts discovered on autopsy of 85-year-olds who died of congestive heart failure, pneumonia, renal failure, etc. -- now CPCs are considered benign, only notable as a single marker for trisomy for the 18th chromosome, when observed via ultrasound in the brain of a fetus between about 12 and 20 weeks gestational age. Also, to be fair, although I hate to agree with our Roman friend, that list of primary symptoms is compatible with Lyme disease, numerous other chronic infections, and several behavioral and psychiatric disorders.
And speaking of our Roman friend, for him, "The [defense missile shield] being proposed is designed to defend against an attack from Iran." What's this? Are you talking about defending America? Are we moving the entire country to the Israel/Iraq border? Otherwise, we don't need a missile defense shield to protect us against nuclear attack from within Iran. Because we have, you know, air. Iran doesn't have delivery vehicles to get nuclear warheads anywhere near America. (Israel might be interested in such a shield, but at present Iran's delivery vehicles MIGHT have something like a 30-50% accuracy rate on targets in the middle of nowhere in Israel, just over the Iraq border.) The CHINESE don't even have delivery vehicles that can reach the US. (They do have some pretty long-range ballistic missiles, and if they haul them within range via submarine, which they have the capability to do, they could potentially strike US targets. But no land-based launches within China.)
In this case, it really is rocket science, Marcus.
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201, Magic.
If supporting equial rights for blacks is racism, then I am a racist.
I think you are using prejude against Jews as a means of justifying your untenable positions. Otherwise why would inject this information gratuitously in your comment?
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#198 Here are some physcial measurements of brain changes in veterans complaining of Gulf War Syndrome: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Addendum, Xie Ming, the link between minimal sarin exposure and GWS, if demonstrable, and the fact that for some veterans presenting with GWS, exposure to sarin during the war was about impossible, this probably says the most about GWS: the similar cluster of symptoms with which some Gulf War veterans present likely have at least two or three different causes.
Otherwise, if no one has noticed, this thread is starting to degrade pretty badly. Marcus wants to freaking LAND MINE Mexicans illegally crossing the US border, fairly well reasoned assessments, in context of the man's life, of the Rev. Wright's strong opinions are met with orders to go back to the "Church of Hate".
It seems no discussion of substance over weighty issues can survive very long on the Internet as a valuable debate. Put us all in a room together, we have to be at least civil because none of us wants get punched in the face over our remarks.
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206, Monty.
Don't disparage the internet. This is the only place you will get honest opinions,i even some of them are distateful to you, and some of the chatter is foolish.
With political correctness imposed on us, straight talk suffers. This is how we keep the lines of communication open.
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mablelostallhermarbles #203;
"I think you are using prejude against Jews as a means of justifying your untenable positions."
How about saying that to CC, jf, and uglyheart? Were it not for Jews, the Civil Rights movement would have failed. Not only did many Jews march and work in it during the 1960s (between LSD trips) but many Jewish lawyers fought for equal rights for African Americans at no charge. Why? Because Jews felt fighting discrimination against blacks would at the same time fight discrimination against themselves. Barack Obama spoke out in recognition of the fact of the importance of the Jewish role in the Civil Rights movement publicly. Yet we have the spectacle of Farrakhan, Jeffreys, even Jessie (Hymietown) Jackson having demonstrated gratuitous antisemitism and going largely undenounced by the majority of blacks. To them, unity with others of their ethnicity is far more important than choosing between right and wrong. One day, perhaps they will also become color blind and use their minds instead of their instinctive loyalties to make critical decisions in their lives. Sadly for many, that time has not arrived yet. Perhaps equality is too new an experience for them to handle. Give them time.
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#202 and #206
A weapons supply dump was blown up and troops were exposed to an estimated 5% of sarin (see the Army Times article with the units listed).
So far it looks like this:
Among what is known now, it appears that Gulf War Syndrome has three aspects:
(1) involving pyridostigimine (PB) tablets and causing impaired cognition.
(2) involving ataxia (from sarin gas and PB tablets)
(3) involving pain (from insect repellent and PB tablets).
MRI shows 5% less white matter, the overall cortex being reduced 6% and the anterior cingulate gyrus 5%.
With MR SPECT, there are reports of a 20% reduction in brainstem cells, a 12% loss in the right basal ganglia and 5% in the left basal ganglia.
Similarly, NAA is said to be reduced 26% in the brainstem and 18% in the right basal ganglia.
There are also hints that the combination of sarin and PB allows passage through the blood-brain barrier, resulting in a susceptibility to autoimmune disease, such as ALS.
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Marbles,
The Internet, it's just another mode of communication, all modes having both information, misinformation and largely irrelevant but otherwise benign content. The virtually complete anonymity inherent to the Internet breeds aggression, but otherwise it's just a big conference call.
I wasn't suggested anyone BE censored, or even censor themselves. Only that people be their own editorial board. Case in point, Marcus implies Mexicans should be subject to the dangers of land mines for merely crossing the US border illegally -- it may be a problem, kids, but nobody deserves to be blown up over it -- then turns and defends Jewish people against perceived, and some no doubt real, bigotry from American black leaders. That's just preposterous.
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#208
Anyone raising the (completely phony) claim of anti-Semitism
should be able to face the known, taught and indoctrinated anti-Gentilism so common among those who raise the issue.
On this Forum, the two individuals who raise the issue of anti-Semitism are recognized as abusive and obnoxious- it is that characteristic, and not their ethnicity, that is noted.
By contrast, consider Sam (the civilized) and learn how to behave.
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In reply to #197, allmymarbles :
To my knowledge and research, Wright has never directly called for violent action against "The Oppressors" as has Farrakhan.
This is the Louis Farrakhan, who teaches his NOI followers that; "Mr. Yakub lived for one hundred fifty years, and his nation of 59,999 followers continued his work for another four hundred fifty years after his death. It took six hundred years for Mr. Yakub and his nation to create the white devils, by forbidding the black race to marry and have children, by killing the black children and breeding ever-whiter children. At the end, they had created a race of beasts, devils, savages with white skins. "They are in the image and likeness of a human being (black man)," the Honorable Elijah Muhammad wrote, "but are altogether a different kind of human being than that of the black human beings."
http://www.thenationofislam.org/yakubabraham.html
Rev. Wright has awarded Louis Farrakhan a lifetime achievement award.
Wright is also an admirer and adherent of Jim Cone, who said "What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love" and "black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy." in his 1969 book "Black Theology and Black Power".
As for me, I'm not certain of Wright because of his associations.
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In reply to #206, montyairline:
Don't despair. Justin will begin a new topic soon, and this chaos at the end which is 90% thinly veiled "anti-" something speech by the same few posters will wane for the first 50 to 100 posts in the next topic until their attention spans veer sharply (to the left).
One poster even went so far as to claim that anything positive the US ever accomplished was because of someone else. It's sheer Bedlam.
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ref #203
I don't know you
But Wright and Farakhan who I was speaking of us are racists.
They is a difference between MLK who wanted equal rights for African Americans but harbored no hatread for white Americans and these two who are hate mongers.
And if you support them your own racism does have to be questioned. Oprah Winfrey walked out of Wrights Church after 1 sermon
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#204
I wonder what #204 was about? Does anyone remember?
One solution for this Forum would be to suspend a poster who has a certain number of comments excluded over a period of time.
One expects, in a public forum, to have some fools, but the childishly disruptive should be culled.
There is also a charactertic most frerquently found in post-menopausal females, but also in some males: the compulsive desire to hurt and wound. Perhaps it is a sadism reactive to personal rejection. One should be aware of it.
On the NEWSNIGHT blogs, I particularly admire JadedJean, who can cut ideas to ribbons without conveying the sense of personal hate.
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212. Real.
I have to ask what your point is. I agree that there are radical blacks and radical whites. But rational people do not espouse their rhetoric. But the striving towards equality is valid, and we should diminish our efforts because there is a lunatic fringe (black and white).
As an aside, is interesting that radical blacks do not acknowledge their white blood, even thugh it is estimated that only five per cent of American blacks are fully black.
In any case, we have moved beyond that and the radicals will fade away evenually for lack of adherents. It is a new era and hopefully the next generation will wonder what all the fuss was about.
(By the way, if I remember correctly, slaves were not allowed to marry. That's pretty disgusting.)
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214, Magic.
I think you are forgetting the political aspect.
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I suppose Marcus also spent time living in Australia, thus allowing his mildy insulting, sweeping generalisations earlier. This along with his years in each European country (allowing him to form an opinion there too).
Of course, we outsiders know nothing of the USA and are not allowed to comment on that place or its people.
When is he moving to Iran (best make it soon), or better still China, when after the Olympics are over he would no doubt be unable to post on this site?
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214, Magic.
P.S. I don't know why you are lumping me with someone like Farakhan (although I guess it suits your purposes). In fact I don't know why you are lumping with anyone.
In the race business, as in politics, I am an independent. That means I don't follow anybody. I don't join movements. I don't march. I don't protest. I don't belong to clubs. (I never even joined the Girl Scouts.) Sometimes, if I don't like what is being offered, I don't vote.
So don't try to pigeon-hole me.
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Ref 160
MAII
The deposition and execution of Grenadan Prime Minister Maurice Bishop may be acceptable to you, but it is not to me.
Obviously, we must remain vigilant and ready to defend our national security and interests, but I certainly don't consider every person that disagrees with me an enemy or a threat. Most wars, past and present, have started because of the actions of fanatics with radical views similar to yours.
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Xie Ming, I don't know what #204 was about; I missed it. I can't imagine what you've said that would warrant suspending or removing the comment; people can disagree with you, but you haven't written anything invective-laden that I recall.
Now, as for GSW -- haha, I have to leave that, old habits die hard -- (of course I mean) GWS, I'll read the Army Times article when I have some extracurricular study time. Veteran's medicine in general is just not my area, but toxic exposures are relevant.
"There are also hints that the combination of sarin and PB allows passage through the blood-brain barrier, resulting in a susceptibility to autoimmune disease, such as ALS"
You mentioned GWS being possibly associated with OP exposure. There was some good work -- at Stanford? -- done on long, long-term chronic exposure to OPs as a potential cause for ALS -- acute exposure wasn't implicated, data on a group with a certain specific balance of dose and length of exposure might make the picture look different. It was, as far as I can find, pretty much dropped without resolution. I think this is due to the rise of genetics, and the much more accessible data on the human genome, discovering markers for acquired pathologies like ALS, or at least markers for pathologies in the cluster in which ALS resides. I still wouldn't have dropped the work on OPs, had it been mine. In the first part, some acquired path can be hereditary OR environmental exposure; in the second part, heredity predisposition to path can be greatly influenced by environmental exposures. (A simple analogy, P^6 individuals with significant predisposition to a cancer of the lung who also smoke are almost sure bets for developing some form of the disease in the lung. Lifelong, heavy smokers with essentially no genetic inclination to cancer of the lung will almost surely expire due to respiratory or vascular disease, or perhaps, though not as likely, some other cancer beginning along the upper airway, but not in the lung.)
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#221
Head trauma (such as playing soccer) is also a factor in ALS, so the BBB may be involved.
Those complaining of GWS also have an elevated rate of ALS.
I know a woman who specialises in the disease and who uses erythropoetin to try and help her ALS patients.
Chronic fatigue is associated with Gulf War Syndrome. Combined with "unrefreshing sleep", it is by far the most frequent complaint.
Of course, the associations of OP (organophosphates) and insectides with chronic fatigue are well known.
[I think #204 may have been the reference to another article].
I just started to look at this today and welcome all informed ideas.
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Xie_Ming #222
#221
"Head trauma (such as playing soccer) is also a factor in ALS, so the BBB may be involved."
That explains a lot. Mohammed Ali's Parkinson disease and Europe's seeming density. For once you make sense.
Dominik Vila #220
Ref 160
MAII
"The deposition and execution of Grenadan Prime Minister Maurice Bishop may be acceptable to you, but it is not to me.
Obviously, we must remain vigilant and ready to defend our national security and interests"
Well it was acceptable to me as was getting Pinochet out of Chile any way we had to. The issue of whether or not Soviet Communism would be allowed to expand and threaten the rest of the Western Hemisphere during the cold war was of far greater importance than your sense of what is fair or unfair. The survival of human civilization was at stake. I was in Granada in 1984 one year after the invasion. It was saved from a terrible fate much to the relief of the rest of the Carribean. And how do you propose we should have defended our national security interests without using our military might? Neville Chamberlain was gone and Sarkozy wasn't around yet so negotiating peace in our time was out of the question. Look at the worthless treaty he just wrote for Georgia. Russian troops continue to advance on Tblisi. When they get to the pipeline that runs through Georgia, Europe will be even more dependent on Russia for energy than it already is. They'll have to start complying with Kyoto whether they like it or not.
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222, Xie.
Some time ago there was talk that the inroduction new vaccines caused GWS. I haven't followed it. Do you have an update?
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In reply to #216, allmymarbles:
"212. Real. I have to ask what your point is."
My point was that MagicKirin may have good reason to be suspicious, but you seemed to come down pretty hard. Although, from my investigative research, Wright has been a positive force for his Chicago community. That doesn't mean he is an entirely positive force in forwarding either a religion of peace or racial harmony.
To many people they see an inherent "falseness" to what is taught in both "Black Liberation Theology", and by the leaders of the Nation of Islam. Knowing your love of religion in politics, revealing this political underbelly should make you shudder. What I see in both cases is religion twisted to serve the purposes of political movements.
If Bill and Hillary attended a church where the minister was in tight, and influenced by Don Black and David Duke, how would you feel about them? But, was Mr. Wright just a crazy uncle? He seems quite lucid to me. Obama wisely fled from under that cloud, and it revealed quite a bit about Mr. Obama to me. But, the media are too craven to expose the truth about the "lunatic fringe", as you put it, whatever the color.
I think everyone should read the entire page from the NOI website I linked to, because it reveals the full abhorrent teachings from why the term "White Devil" is used, and how they twist the truth. You need to understand it in the context of Jewish people, exiled to Europe (with the other white devils, living in caves, wearing animal skins and eating human flesh) to see the inherent evil in this lie. It is the same way that radical Islamic Imam's teach about the horrors of Judaism, and perpetuate blood libel such as the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
I think it is important that the nature of any "lunatic fringe" movements be very, very public. Let them face the scrutiny of the light, and be judged by rational people like you and I. It is very, very dangerous to begin to classify people the way NOI does. Whenever you de-humanize any group it becomes much easier to justify rounding them up in box cars like swine.
I know you believe, as do I, that everyone should be treated equally regardless of race, religion, creed, national origin, etc. From the evidence I've seen, Mr. Wright professes himself not to be a racist and is no longer in the NOI. Again, based on his associations, I'm still not sure how he feels about white people -- and frankly it doesn't matter to me. He is retired, and he lives in Chicago.
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Also in reply to #216, allmymarbles:
"(By the way, if I remember correctly, slaves were not allowed to marry. That's pretty disgusting.) "
First, my understanding was that slavery was endemic to certain southern states, although the nation as a whole had to wrestle with it being legal in some states. The religious anti-slavery movement that started in northern US shortly after the Revolutionary War(emancipation acts between 1780 and 1804), made its way also to Britain which banned it by 1833.
For the southern states it depended on the "master" I suppose, and his permission was necessary. My understanding was that as Black people became Christian they needed to form churches in secret and recruited sympathetic whites to perform ceremonies until Black pastors emerged. After the Civil War, the Black church emerged although segregated and still somewhat underground. It wasn't until the 1960's that it emerged as leadership for the Civil Rights Movement.
Slavery and forced servitude in any form is repugnant (and also still practiced all over the world).
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225, Real.
We are in basic agreement. Where I would diverge is on the significance of Rev. Wright. I don't think he matters at all, except to the politicians.
As for the Nation of Islam, et al., I don't think they matter either. They will become marginalized. If Obama is elected, their relevance will be questionable and their demise accelerated. It's kind of hard to scream "white devils" in their context if the president is half black, or, as they would say, "black."
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225, Real.
It takes all sorts of people to make a world. For myself I tend to pass over the minutiae and watch the trends.
This is by way of saying that I don't exactly know what Farakhan and his ilk are up to right now, except for their attitudes. So if you were to ask me what their recent rant was, I wouldn't know. But I do see them in perspective, and in the same way I have seen the whole race question evolve.
I have always been involved in bettering the lot of the blacks, but in a very personal way. I had friends who needed help, and I helped when it was feasible. I hired competent blacks when I could. That sort of thing. But I never belonged to a movement as such. If you belong to a group then you are stuck with all their beliefs, like a religion. And, as you know, religion does not appeal to me.
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In reply to #228, allmymarbles:
"I have always been involved in bettering the lot of the blacks, but in a very personal way. I had friends who needed help, and I helped when it was feasible. I hired competent blacks when I could. That sort of thing. But I never belonged to a movement as such."
You and I are kindred spirits on this, although I'd have to substitute in disadvantaged minorities I guess since I work internationally. :)
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Obama's delegate lead is entirely due to the so called "super" delegates, who are allowed to change their minds.
It's not over yet, remember Hillary only "suspended" her campaign.
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#224
The new vaccines were thought to contribute to the problem.
If nothing else, they would put a strain on the immune system.
However, it seems that the men were also wearing "dog collars" with insecticide.
So, from today's look, the Gulf War Syndrome situation appears as in #209.
As I find out more, I'll let you know.
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To those who have examined evidence about
GWS:
I seem to recall that there has been at least
one lawsuit regarding contamination of cabin
air from a design flaw of certain aircraft,
including the MD-80 and A320.
Is it possible that our troops were exposed
to these materials during their transport to
or from the gulf?
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Ref 223
Theories such as the domino effect that dominated our foreign policy for decades are based on paranoidal intolerance based on the conclusion that ideological differences, no matter how small or benign, constitute a threat to our security and interests and must be eliminated.
I support military action in cases of self defense or when there is evidence of an impending attack against our nation, or an ally. Otherwise, diplomacy and positive deeds should be the preferred approach to solving problems.
The biggest problem I have with our foreign policy are the excuses we use to intervene in foreign lands, and the inconsistency of our policies and statements.
We enthusiastically support Israeli expansionism, but object to other nations doing the same. We launch unprovoked attacks and invade small and/or developing nations, but express outrage or dismay when other superpowers do the same. We support international law when it is applied against our adversaries, but ignore it when it impedes the advancement of our policies. We call anyone that oposses our presence in their country and those that do not support our interests a terrorist and absurd terms such as enemy combatants, while we herald the sacrifices of patriots fighting the socio-economic or political advancements of our competitors.
Our foreign policy would have a lot more credibility if we simply told the world that we will do whatever is necessary to expand and preserve the scope of our empire. If our goal is to control the world politically and militarily, why don't we just admit it and do it? I suspect the answer to my rhetorical question lies more on how the American people would react, than on what foreigners may think.
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230, Stan
I'm afraid you are wrong. Obama won the pledged delegates 1763 to 1640; he won the superdelegates 438 to 256. Further a great many of Hillary's superdelegates (c.180) pledged before the primaries took place, on the assumption that she would win: I doubt very much that the likes of Diane Feinstein will put Hillary above the good of the party. Whereas almost all of Obama's superdelegates pledged during the primaries or after. If there is going to be a switch in superdelegate votes, therefore, it will be away from Clinton, not to her. And even if she did lure some superdelegates, given that the pledged delegates will first vote according to their allocation, she would have to get 150 superdelegates to change their mind in her favour. That isn't going to happen as Obama has not been a disaster since June ... far from it.
The real issue is who will be the VP nominee and Clinton has proved unsuitable in the way she has conducted herself since: if she had really wanted that job, she would have bent over backwards to make sure that it happened; and she would have kept the likes of Wolfson and Penn under control. Instead, she has been going about talking about 'catharsis' even when she is attending a fundraiser organised by Obama on her behalf to pay off her bills. And she has yet to negotiate a deal with Penn to cut his $5M fee.
Let us suppose for the moment that the Clinton fantasists were right and she did steal the nomionation from under Obama's nose: she has not engaged in any VP selection process and Obama would not serve. Further, all the donation funding would evaporate. She'd be fighting against so much ill will and with so little money, that it would be a humiliating disaster: those 2 million people who have funded Obama are not going to give a dime to her.
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Ref 234 Mark
I agree with your analysis. In my opinion, Hillary is focused on 2012 and she is doing everything possible to position herself politically and financially for the next election. Unfortunately for her, she is bound to face some formidable opponents, such as Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, who are bound to make her defeat this year look benign in comparison.
There are several female politicians in our country, on both sides of the political spectrum, that are less controversial and much more acceptable to mainstream voters than Hillary Clinton is. Bear in mind that I voted for her in the primaries, only to become disgusted by her behavior a couple of months.
My problem with Hillary has nothing to do with gender, political views, or her intellectual acumen, but with her persona. She comes across as a cynical, cold and calculating politician willing to say and do whateveer is necessary to achieve her goals. As far as I am concerned her political career is over.
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#233
The idea that the "domino theory" represents an effect of ideological totalitarianism is an excellent and, I believe, original, insight.
ISBN 9780920282113 might be of particular interest to you, as it looks at ideology throughout history.
The rest of the post was good also. How would you respond to the argument that it represents idealism rather than reality?
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Dominick,
I think the only future for Clinton is as Leader of the Senate, and that will depend on how she behaves in the next two weeks, followed by the success or otherwise of her health care legislation. She has to be seen as gracious at the Conference rather than trying to whip her supporters into a frenzy.
If 2012 is an issue, then I suspect Al Gore will also run: his very carefully nuanced wording when asked, left matters open if Obama or Clinton failed this time: those were, I supect, the implicit 'circumstances' that would make him reconsider. And, as with people like you, I'm sure Hillary would garner less support next time round because of her refusal to concede and support graciously.
Obama must know that at the conference he has to change the game, and the easiest way he can do that is through his choice of running mate. I find the Drudge suggestion of Kerry to be interesting: I suspect more people will be happy with the idea of him being VP than there were of him being President. It would tick the right box.
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Ref 236
"How would you respond to the argument that it represents idealism rather than reality"
If there is one thing we can learn from history is that the most lasting effects in cultural and societal evolution are those based on the examples set by idealists. Conversely, military and political dominance have been traditionally short lived. You can subjugate other societies physically, for some time, but you can not alter their desire to be free and prosper.
At the risk of sounding naive, I believe that we would be much more successful in maintaining our global hegemony through positive deeds and compromise, than by imposing our will upon others by force.
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Ref 237
I would not hesitate to vote for Al Gore, once again, for either President or Vice President, but if Hillary Clinton is chosen for the VP spot I would probably abstain from voting for the first time in my adult life.
The latter is based not only on the opinion of her that I expressed in an earlier post, but on the fact that I admire McCain's patriotism, moderate voting record, willingness to compromise, and his position on the pervasive influence of religion in politics. The only reason I do not plan to vote for him is because I am concerned about his age and his clear lapses in memory, and because of his acknowledged lack of famliarity with economic matters at a time when our country is in desperate need of someone with a solid command of that critical facet of presidential responsibility.
I realize that his limitations could be overcome by choosing competent pragmatists for his cabinet, but who would he listen to and which policies would he endorse when his grasp of economics is limited to no taxes and offshore drilling?
I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else, but in my opinion if we want the services we get we should pay for them, otherwise we should make our opinion clear to our politicians regarding which ones we want to do without. Borrow and spend, like tax and spend, are unacceptable approaches to fiscal sanity.
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DominikVila #238
"At the risk of sounding naive, I believe that we would be much more successful in maintaining our global hegemony through positive deeds and compromise, than by imposing our will upon others by force."
Is compromise how Neville Chamberlain averted World War II? Is that how we defeated Germany, Japan, the USSR, Serbia, Saddam Hussein? You are naive. Go back to sleep. BTW, America does not have global hegemony or anything remotely like it. It doesn't want it and it couldn't have it if it did. The goal is not hegemony, it is survival largely unscathed by what others have planned for us. Personally I hope you sleep right through election day.
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Ref 240
Marcus, I consider your opinion of me an honor. Your posts help establish a contrast between the most radical elements of our society and those who advocate moderation and respect for the opinions of others.
Quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time - including sleep - than waste it on a person in desperate need of psychiatric help. I must tell you, however, that unlike you I object to both left and right wing extremism as I consider both equally dangerous.
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240. At 3:32pm on 17 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
DominikVila #238
Is compromise how Neville Chamberlain averted World War II?
No but he managed to delay it sufficiently. Are you suggesting he could have defeated Germany before Munich?
Is that how we defeated Germany, Japan, the USSR, Serbia, Saddam Hussein? "
Er compromise was the only way the US defeated the UsSSR, and the US did not defeat Germany, Russia did and it occupied Eastern Europe without compromise. If the allies had been prepared to compromise then eastern europe may have avoided communist occupation.
That is however speculation.
As for "Saddam Hussien" the US openly surrendered control of the country (Iraq)to the militias and tribes, pretty big compromise.
"You are naive."
And you are hoplessly ignorant.
"America does not have global hegemony or anything remotely like it. "
No it lost it because of primitive attitudes such as yours. Pity.
"The goal is not hegemony, it is survival largely unscathed by what others have planned for us."
Well good luck with that ideal. Hasn't worked for the whole history of the country of course (so called US isolationism is and, always was, a myth), but hey we are not talking reality here.
" Personally I hope you sleep right through election day."
And the rest of us hope you read a book some day, a primary school coloured atlas would be a good start. A basic history of the US another.
Why do so many people in the US despise their own history? Must be related to that idea that, originally founded (by the British at least) as an earthly paradise, it is always destined to fail and dissapoint.
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You guys are all being trolled by MAII.
There was some speculation in the past that he is not
even an American.
I will be watching like a hawk - he'll slip up at
some point.
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#243
Wuld someone please define "troll"?
(For me, it is a creature under a bridge.)
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Re:#225 Clinton's 'family' prayer group is a bit dodgy from some stories I've seen
A cult by any other name?
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Re: #244 Troll (verb) means fishing by trailing a lure or baited hook from a moving boat
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nat I agree
there is not much difference except that russia is frankly a little less of a bully than the US.
the two bullies in the playground shouting you started it etc. but frankly russia made a very american choice.To be "proactive" after all America has surrounded it with bases , built defence shield to stop its bombs(lets not pretend we all believe they would spend so many billions to stop a Iranian missile).
then tried to limit its role in the world, played with G8 membership(as if russia could not go alone now).M erronious and the idiots of his thinking go on about beating the Soviet union in ww3.
they did not.
the people of the Soviet Union decided for change.
they got it.
America did not give it or really help.
Russia could have started this up long ago.
Are we really in a situation that much different from Kosovo.
So why can s osetia not get the independence they seek?
Two bullies but here I have more sympathy with Russia than the US.
"you MUST leave now"
Good after you.
177 ignoramus. that would be you?ignormarcus
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jacksforge, there are certainly parallels with the aftermath
of the collapse of the Soviet Union with the period
before WWII. The West undermined the Weimar
republic and set the stage for Hitler's rise to power.
It didn't change what we eventually had to do, however.
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187 marble well said.
and to all in the rest of the world Bill o' rielly is from what station?FOX
Bill Moyers is a fine analyser of eventsthat is opinion. mine . and many more others.
majerkin .
I have called you a racist before.
I meant it.(i think MA is not as racist as you)
there were several posts that gave me that impression , but your hatred of mr Wright and refusal to accept that white preachers had made even more out of order comments.
let me to think you have a racial bias.
we went through this when the wright event surfaced and thank mod your previous comments have been struck.
Mc Cain had some revolting ministers that he sought support from.
Knowing "america deserved 9/11 because of the gays" was in their past.
but he sought their support anyway.
double standards on enough issues that always side with the" white "(sorry speech impediment) , "right" view do indicae racism.
Not the fact that you don't like Obama.
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191. At 9:38pm on 16 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
OMG, Miss Marbles was a peace marcher in the 60s. A former hippie peacenick, a flower child. How could I not have guessed? So obvious. One question Mable, how many times did you do LSD and when do you expect to come home from your latest trip. Tried any .....ecstasy?
coming from a drunk.who knows nothing of acid .
not even verbal acid
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145 the last paragraph.
also the closest accent to old devonian English is heard on a little island of maine or somewhere.
but having discovered that extra U should we go back.
like french and italian cooking has pushed the UK up on the cooking stakes .
does the U give us that bit extra flavour.
does it make the colours brighter.
or does it just confuse school kids till they have learnt to spell (in the modern way).
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. The local leader was a nut case who believed in some kind of spirit world.
is this GW, or Tony. ah local to cuba, i suppose it must be GW
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mainly erronious well you got me . it's happened. too late.
btw just incase you really cannot read i will use big letters.I AM AMERICAN.
that is why I am not In Russia. Also , they are trying to recover from 5 years of cold war while having their hands tied behind their backs(america can invade and take over nations for oil, but Russia cannot tell their neighbours to behave?).
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150 Gn R but should we not try first before provoking the bear any more.
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178 sssshhh keep it down
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#255, jacksforge, we might be past the point
of no return. It would be nice if we could go
back in time and correct previous mistakes,
but I need a new battery for my time machine.
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195 a little bit of marcus hum'or.
he is trying to slip a sad comment through past the mods.
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197 4 marbles you've hit the nail on the head.
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200. At 10:29pm on 16 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
GAH, it's also a cheap cigar.
no it is part of a subtle racist comment
""Mable, you are as big an ignoramus as jf. Ever hear of EOE? What about federal fair housing laws? When all this happened....you were probably away on a trip.
I watched much of brightest people of my generation destroy their lives with hallucinogenic drugs. They thought they were so smart. They made NOTHING of their lives. How could they after they destroyed their minds. Now they are old and ready to retire penniless. A lifetime of wasted opportunities by minds that preferred to destroy themselves to avoid growing up and facing the world. Spoiled children who would not take responsibility for themselves. Now they will demand government enforced charity in the form of higher taxes and transfers of money from those who want to and can earn it. I say give them enough to survive but no more. They are what they made themselves to be. Pathetic."
And you did it all without drugs, impressive.
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208 the jews you refer to are the same that gave your shirt to the homeless, and you turned into a crazy nut as a result.
they were not the sort of jews like you or majerkin they are the sort of jews we ALL defend. those with reason and good sense. the same sort of people that Ed, Xie,And others provide links to day after day.
not all jews are murderous zionist with nothing but blood in their hearts.
You are the anti semites.
just as this administration has been nothing but bad for the US you are nothing but race baiters trying to make people racist in order to give you the right to be unashamedly selfish.
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jf #260;
"And you did it all without drugs, impressive."
Occasional alcohol, lots of caffeine. Nothing else. That's how I still do it all these years later. Only less alcohol and even more caffeine. BTW, I detest French roast coffee. Why would anyone burn perfectly good coffee beans? Starbucks can kiss my derriere.
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210 not really he is of a jewish back ground.
so defending jews is not beyond self serving when coming from him.
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233 dominick. I know you favour no support from me , but another great letter.
thanks
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243 his timeline for school and his work history etc all semem very fishy.
argy bargy has a new example.
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ref #250
As usual Jacky Boy you missed the point.
My original point was the bias of Bill Moyers.
Iused Rev Wright as an example.
then becuase I dare to criticize a racist who happens to be African American someone throws the race card at me.
Unlike you I am not ruled by political correctness. I've criticized Bernard Law and thought the Mass AG should have prosecuted him.
But it is moral cowardness not to criticize a racist if he happens to be African American
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Commutativity says that, if A=B, then B=A.
Some people do not think that way.
(consider, for example, the JDL)
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It would appear that I broke the house rules with two quotations from Marx, one from Montaigne, and one from Hobbes, with the word Discuss; but other comments here that I find deeply personally offensive from one blogger to another are allowed ... so I am going to make some complaints.
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Ah .. my sin was to quote Montaigne in French: re-posted with translation:
MA II
'From each according to his abilities, to each according to their needs'.
'Man is alienated from the product of his labour'.
'The only part of the conduct of anyone, to which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others; over his own body and mind the individual is sovereign'.
'I revolve within myself'.
'Life is nasty, brutish, and short.'
Discuss ....
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MagicKirin
It was when Wright said "God bless America? God damn America" that Obama's problems began. He sat in this man's church for 20 years. He pretended he'd never heard this kind of talk from him before. He said he didn't agree with it but refused to denounce him. Then when he saw it was costing him politically he distanced himself from the Reverand Wrong. This came on the heels of his wife saying that her husband running for President was the first time she was proud to be an American. Never mind that she and her husband have had some of the finest education available anywhere and as lawyers from prestigious ivy league schools are in the upper crust of maybe 1% to 2% of money earners in the world. It makes you wonder what other kinds of people he associates with in that sleazy nefarious world where politics, criminality, and a radical subculture converge in the seedier parts of Chicago. What would we be in for in the way of surprises if he gets elected? And of course to suggest that this should have any bearing on his candidacy is called racist. Sorry I don't buy it. In the real world, this is very important to know, just what kind of man would we be buying into. So far, I don't know. I don't think the media cares to find out either. Where is the investigative reporting into his past. Usually the media digs up lots of dirt on people. By all media accounts, he doesn't seem to have a past. I wonder why.
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249. At 7:39pm on 17 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Dominik Vila 241
"It was Barry Goldwater who said "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." He was of course absolutely right. That's how we got our liberty and became the first free country in the first place."
He was naturally utterly wrong as demonstrated by the fact that he was paraphrasing Hitler - not usually seen as a political success
Simple Simon 242
"Chamberlain avoided war by a few months during which time he did nothing."
Except rearm the Royal Airforce without which Hitler would have triumphed in the West in 1939
"Germany was prepared to carry out its next round of aggression by invading Poland. "
Germany invaded Poland, correct. Britain then declared war - the US looked on benignly and did nothing.
"Could Britain have defeated Hitler before Munich? Absolutely. In 1933, 1934, 1935, maybe even 1936. "
How exactly? Complete fantasy, At the height of the Great Depression? Not even Churchill suggests this.
"By 1937 it was very dangerous and by 1938 it was too late."
Fantasy again. Britain could have defeated Germany in 1937, a or at least dissuaded it , but only if it it acquired a very distateful ally, wonder if you know who?
" Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them. "
Yers we have all heard this cliche from you before, it seems to be the only historical comment you know. First you have to learn history, and that has been your problem so far.
"Al Qaeda could have been thwarted many times before 2001 but the US government in general and President Clinton in particular refused to acknowledge the growing threat and act to defeat it."
Which is like saying the British could have won the War of independence if they had only hanged Washington and Jefferson's parents.
True of course but fatuous.
"There was the bombing of the Cole, the two embassay bombings, intelligence reports and countless experts testifying before Congress."
Unfortunately that assumes (again fatuously) that all these events were related.
And "US inteligence expert"? What's that? Someone who has had a weekend trip to Europe? Surely a contradiction in terms.
Like a "wise US Sec of State" (there hasn't been one in the last thirty years)
"They nodded, thanked them politely, and went back to business as usual playing their useless game over impeachment while America's enemies were preparing an attack."9-11 was a cheap lesson, it could have been far worse. If we don't wake up, the next one will "
Waking up will involve learning history and something about the world. Reading your posts, not to say your reliance on Newt Gringrich as a historian - one would have to say the US is far from that.
Look at Georgia, where once again we have the US Sec of State, President etc looking like spotlighted rabbits muttering curses. And of course the US networks having to remind its poplace which, Georgia is being referred to. Not that many have even heard of the US state, much less the Caucasian one.
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MarkFromOxford #272
I read the Communist Manifesto in High School and again in College. So what. Are you advocating Communism? It's the typical Robin Hood rob from the rich to give to the poor mentality Europeans have always championed in their murderous isms ad it has always failed and resulted in tragedy. Apologists for Communism will tell you Russia and China were not truely Communist Countries. Here's another quote for you, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"...John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834?1902)
One important aspect in the genius of the American system of government lies in part that it fractures power into so many pieces and assigns it to people who play roles that are at odds with each other that each becomes the watchdog of the others preventing tyranny. Communism, Socialism, and other Euroisms assume the best in people, the American system assumes the worst and is rarely disappointed. Here's another; "the power to tax is the power to destroy"...John Marshall. Small wonder Europe now finally on its own is an economic basket case. What success Britain has had in recent decades it owes to Margaret Thatcher who saw it clearly. The EU will undo that soon enough.
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Majik , moyers is one of the only voices in the american media ,one exception being charlie rose , that will dare to report on the situation in Israel from the sort of perspective that they see in the rest of the world.
You object to that I am sure, but I guarantee you that the majority of Jews in america watch that show for more accurate thought and findings about what goes on in Israel than watch Bill O'riley.
The jews of america were actually statistically more likely to have been against the war in Iraq than the average american.
They show better sense and I suspect they get better informed as to the realities than you as what is a minority amoungst jews.
You are welcome to your views(and I still think you racist btw.) it is just hat I believe you to be someone that causes more harm to zionism and Israel and the Jews on the whole than you do good.
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power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"
talking about the neo cons again?
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simon
I thought they were having a democratic convention in those caucases.
now you say their all caucasian I'm going to have to rethink things.
cheers
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write said nothing that should not have been said. it's all about the free speech right?
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ref #279
Then I have the right to call him a racist. Which he is.
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234, Mark.
Yours is a good unemotional appraisal of the situation. There is no way she can snatch the nomination from Obama. A lot of it comes down to money and Hillary doesn't have any.
Obama is allowing each of the Clintons to speak at the convention is assuage their egos. That said, I do not think they will repay his generosity by wholeheartedly getting out the vote.
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Mark, 237.
I think that Kerry, Clinton and Gore have no chance of running in 2012 and that there is no chance of Kerry running for vice-president this year. All three are old news to the voting public. They would be seen as retreads.
I have no thoughts on who Obama will choose, but whoever it is, it is bound to be a surprise.
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239, Dominick.
Like you, if Hillary is the VP choice, I will not vote. That would put the corrupt Clintons back in the White House, barreling over Obama, and the Clinton machine back in business.
Additionally, such a choice would indicate that Obama is not the person I thought he was. He might think he would be playing it smart, but I would see it as weakness and stupidity. That said, I do not think he is a stupid man.
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240, staph. aureus.
This may come as a surprise to you, staphylococcus, but this is not pre-World War two England.
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244. Xie.
As concerns staphylococcus, your parenthetical comment is correct.
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262, staph. aureus.
"Starbucks can kiss my derriere."
I can't imagine anyone wanting to kiss your derriere, or even a less objectionable part of your corpus.
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I know that this is silly, being somewhat guilty
of distraction myself, but returning to Justin's
original heading, does anybody know what
on earth Hillary's objectives are?
And, what is political water-boarding? Do you
have to go to Cuba for that, or is there a place
in Hawaii where one can have that done?
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287, Guns.
I should think their first priority is to salvage their machine which, through its associated influence, brings in the big bucks. Most of their income comes from influence peddling.
Obviously they did not expect to lose, which is why they did not realize they were betting the farm. So I should think that shoring up their reputation, with Obama's help. is number one on their agnda.
If they are in any way successful, then I think they will go after Obama.
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allmy, this is like feeding a pet shark. Why would
Obama do this? Is he really that weak?
They must have some dirt on him that they
can leak to the Republicans.
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Gn R and marbles, maybe he thinks she needs a bit more rope.
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marbles ,i wonder if she is crazy enough to not have realised that she looks like a fool and an angry maniac.
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jacksforge, she has this fanatical core that
doesn't see her that way.
By acting as a "power broker" for the Obama
campaign, she can claim that he owes her.
And, besides that, I'll bet that she'll be a good
tipper from now on.
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I find her base.
and I bet she doesn't tip.
You would hope,
but she's broke right .
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289, guns.
In my comment #2, above, I suggested that we might be talking about blackmail. I don't think it is a question of Obama's weakness, at least I hope not. I should think that the Clintons could do him a lot of harm if he did not try to help restore their reputations.
To me this is the most likely scenario.
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290, Jack.
Giving her rope is a very interesting thought. That would make Obama even cleverer than we think.
292, 293. Given her self-involvement, I wonder if she has the ability to see herself as others do. Pllus, as Guns suggests, there are her fanatical followers. They wouldn't have objectivity either.
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Allmy,
I didn't mean that ALL of Hillary's supporters are
fanatical, but being the somewhat politically
cynical person that I am, many of them appear
that way to me.
Jacks' rope theory is interesting, and Justin
obviously thinks that Obama is doing this
out of weakness, not strength. Perhaps
both are true.
Or, it could just be a very clever attempt at
political theater, which is 90% of all politics
in this country. God forbid that our politicians
actually try to solve any real problems!
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"One important aspect in the genius of the American system of government lies in part that it fractures power into so many pieces and assigns it to people who play roles that are at odds with each other that each becomes the watchdog of the others preventing tyranny"
Yes thge US has a very negative system of government. However it is also a very clumsy and crude one and one that frequently doesn't work - as we saw with Clinton and the republican Congress, where both sides preferred to score points on the other (to the extent of actually delaying the national budget) rather than actually deal with the country's problems.
We see it also with the Supreme Court where open political stacking is the order of the day.
It is for this reason, as has been observed, that the US system of government has rarely been imitated by any other country and where it has been, it has usually proved disastorous - with either hopeless atrophy or an overmightly executive.
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#298
Is it possible that, where there are problems to be solved, an "over-mighty" executive is the usual solution, under any system.
Since the USA now has, indisputably, problems to be solved
the current question is "whom would you trust to act in such an over-mighty fashion?"
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Am I the only one that found Obama's performance at the Saddleback Civil Forum lackluster? I was shocked by his awkward demeanor, lack of oratorical and debating skills, and his tendency to respond to simple questions in a manner more appropriate to an academic forum than a national audience.
In contrast, McCain was eloquent, spontaneous, and witty; his quips and anecdotes were not only entertaining, but supportive of his political and religious convictions. He talked to the audience and interlocutor, rather than spending most of the interview staring at the desk in front of him.
Regardless of whether or not Obama suspected he had been set up by a right wing evangelical group, the fact is that as a lawyer and graduate from one of the most prestigious law schools in the country he should have done much better.
Insofar as ideology, I did not discern new revelations, other than McCain suddenly embracing the "agents of intolerance" and championing their mantra.
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Ref 299
Our domestic and foreign policy problems are so great that it is going to take more than just one person to solve them, regardless of who wins the election in November. I am also convinced that it is going to take a very long time to return to the level of economic prosperity and fiscal sanity we enjoyed in the 90s.
Hopefully the candidates will give us at least a hint of who their key cabinet members are going to be because it is going to take a team of highly competent individuals, and sacrifices by everyone, to solve the problems we are facing.
On international matters the biggest problem is not comfronting the alleged Islamic threat, but restoring our image abroad while focusing on Al Qaeda rather than on an entire culture.
On domestic problems we must zero in on fiscal responsibility, balancing the budget, reducing the debt, reducing unfunded liabilities, increasing the value of the dollar to encourage capital investment, repairing and improving our infrastructure, and solving our health care and education crises. A very daunting task indeed.
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Oops, I forgot to mention the most interesting revelation made by Obama at the Saddleback forum: his praise of Sam Nunn's credentials. Was that a casual commentary or a clear signal of who his running mate is going to be?
Choosing a man with proven national security and conservative credentials, from a pivotal Republican stronghold, would alleviate some of the concerns that a large segment of the American electorate still have about Obama.
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Vacation's over!
I'd love to see McCain trying to body surf! Now, THAT's fit!;-)
ed
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The Anus uttered thusly,
Quite possibly, but has she the wit or the will?At present, America's behaviour is more hindrance than help, witness the Caucasus.Salaam, etc.
ed
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"301. At 11:49am on 18 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon, the notion that the President can do whatever he wants to is strictly a European myth."
No it is your myth, no European would be so ignorant.
" Congress, the Supreme Court, and the "fourth estate" the Press are there to monitor his every move and block him when it is necessary. "
The US president can imprison without warrant, attack and invade other countries without Congress.
Read your own constitution.
"The American system prefers the possiblity of paralysis to the possiblity of tyranny."
The US system edges towards presidential domination.
It used to be boasted that the US president could destroy the whole world in a moment.
" Britain as in all Parliamentary systems where the legislative branch is a rubber stamp for the executive, Gordon Brown can sign whatever treaty he wants to ceding what little is left of Britain's sovereignty to the EU."
He can certainly sign treaties, that is hardly tyranny. He cannot stack the judiciary however or imprison (in foreign countries) solely on his own decision.
" Not only will Parliament automatically agree with whatever he says, according to BBC's report he doesn't even have to put it to a vote if there is any doubt in his mind that it somehow might get voted down"
Too ignorant for comment. Read the BBC accuarately.
" Britain doesn't have anything that can even remotely be called democracy."
Much more democractic then the US in many ways.
"Certainly not by American standards. We only pay lip service to Europe out of politeness and to maintain civil relations with it. In reality we think Europe's governments stink and would have no part of anything like it ourselves. "
And an increasing no of Americans have nothing to do with their democracy either, not bothering to vote.
As I say few if anyone imitates the American system, it is far too polically corrupt and gives far too much power to the President.
The trouble is US politics are far too puerile and polarised.
The latest religious debate between the two candidates for presidential office typies the half-witted approach.
The campaign in 2004 was equally degrading and the one before that was such a farce that no serious comenetator would call the result a triumph for democracy.
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If I thought she'd buy rope, I'd contribute.
"Agents of Intolerance". - Their basic ethics are compatible with our society's interests. He is fine courting their morals while still not promoting "intolerance".
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I've heard an absolute nonsence conspiracy theory today, that the Georgian / Russian situation was cooked up to create a 'situation' which would play well to John McCain's republicans in the abscence of any sort of terrorist attack which would equally play to his advantage. I disagree that anyone would cook up such a scheme, but having said that if this crisis continues I can certainly see McCain gaining ground from it.
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ref #300
It should not it has been an issue that several critics remarked on. That is why he has been avoiding people like bill O'Rielley.
Having said that it should not disqualify him any more than be a reason to vote for him. The Obama voters that perplex me are the one who say" when he speaks it is so uplifiting" or in the case of a certain MSNBC commentator "I get a tingle up my leg"
Whomever people vote for I hope it is on issues.
But I don't have that much hope.
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Did McCain Help Bait Russia into Georgia?
Whatever happened, it doesn't show much evidence of American helpfulness in solving the world's problems , as per the Speaking Orifice's perceptions...Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #311
How can the U.S possibly blamed for this? I keep hearing the Iraq analogy. First the U.S tried to go through the U.N on the diplomatic route. you can argue they should have tried harder or not go in at all. But Russia went in without any negoiating or talking.
Second they claim it was to protect ethnic Russians in the breakaway province than why go so deep in Georgia.
I can imagine the response if Bush or the future President went into Venezuela to dipose the terrorist supporting dictator Hugo Chavez
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310 majik on the leg tingling and all that I have to agree.
I support the guy but I do accept that he is human not God and I always find that fervour a little strange.
Then it has to be said that when some americans support something they can be very committed.
Very team orientated, be it the high school on state team. I also fear that they will get disappointed by the fact hat only so much will be able to be achieved.
Unless everyone gets on board.
As for bill o'rielly yea we will have to disagree about his contribution to the journalistic art.
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304 yes.
but see here if you intend to post remarks like those of your predecessor of the same name then remember you will probably find people disagree with you.
If you wish to convert you nation so as to promote the isolation from that world out there you may find it more productive to talk to more americans. Here there are not enough for your wise words to have a great effect.
Now pbs has many forums to speak on and I think you might have more success in encouraging the destruction of the world there. Good luck in your future endeavorers there.
I hope you will not bring as many foolish arguments as your predecessor .
Yours in good faith Jack
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Ref 312,
Read the linked article.(Note: Venezuela ain't next-door to USA, and neither is Iraq, and neither is threatening our citizens)
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Good Lord! Is everything a conspiracy?
Georgia's leader gambled/blundered. Russia demonstrated minimal self moderation.
I seriously doubt anyone of authority gave Georgia a "green light".
Maybe Clinton did this so she could resurrect her "3:00 AM" commercial.
Maybe Obama did this so it looked like McCain did it.
Maybe McCain did it so he would look good. (Or maybe make Clinton look plausible to split the party.)
No wait! McCain/Clinton/Obama do not have the authority to make such a promise stick.
I like the "Clinton Conspiracy". It is just about time she resurface as the "tough non-Republican".
The propaganda was well thought out. Where is that Clinton propagandist, and what is his take/alibi on this one?
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DomenickVila #300 writes that McCain came out ahead of Obama at Saddleback.
McCain may have talked himself into some trouble with his 'Christmas Cross' story (which it now seems to have been plagiarised from Solzenhitzin - of all people).
In McCain's 1973 PoW "A First Person Account" article, he writes :
"I have heard there was one B-52 pilot who refused to fly the missions during the Christmas bombing. You always run into that kind. When the going gets tough, they find out their conscience is bothering them... "
It is obviously true that he suffered horribly but he would have been better not to have drawn our attention to some of the things that he wrote at the time.
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312 majik we used our mulligan on iraq.
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neil a 2 obama did it to make mc cain look guilty. thats good out of the box thinking, but I ll pass.
mc Cain has the ability to talk to GW on what to do .I doubt obama would get the time.
Mccain was just over there, so was condi, but not obama last I looked.
Russia has been to the UN about the situation there . they went several times. Mc cain Bush (this administration and the mc cain) have all been trying to provoke russia. if not trying they are the biggest self centred fools out there.
misslile shields etc.
the cost of diplomacy is way cheaper than the cost of war.
something america should remember as it's debt keeps soaring.
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Ed (#311), it's clear that this imbroglio in Georgia started had a lot of encouragement from the US, but it has been building for some time. In January of this year, the US Senate passed SR #439 unanimously advocating NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. That was before McCain clinched the Republican nomination.
The resurrection of the Cold War is bipartisan, it seems.
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#311
Is it possible that the Congress might take steps to limit the war-starting potential of the present administration?
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320 bi partisan indeed but now we have to wait to see is obama carries on showing good judgement, because in these "we are all georgians" times a cool head would be favoured.
we have a choice of two (hillery is a bad joke) and one reacts with a hot head with hot headed remarks.with no temper in his speech.
Bush is worse.
Bi partisan fear of Russia is just what america is about .
Or at least well practiced.
And we need georgia on our side.
but we also need russia on our side.
Now what does Clinton have to say ?
Obliterate?
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321 i wish they would just impeach the two
in the white house.
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I am going to Borders and buying a few books as I have no real interest in the convention . I will look for the recap on BBC . In this modern age, the conventions seem a bit our of focus . ie The great State of Indiana, known for its high theshold of boredom and birthplace of James Dean casts its blah , balh , blah votes for fill in the blank.
I wonder whats on cable ...maybe some good movies?
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Ref 317
One of the most interesting outcomes of the Saddleback political forum was the obvious change in strategies adopted by the McCain campaign. Instead of avoiding talking about his Vietnam experiences, McCain delivery was filled with anecdotal references to it. Judging by the enthusiastic response from the audience, his new approach is bound to produce very positive results not only because it will remind voters of his patriotism, but because it highlights the contrast between his experiences and those of his opponent.
Obviously, the applause that McCain got for his positions on abortion, taxes, stem cell research, gay marriage and appointment of Justices is not surprising considering where the interviews took place.
Quite frankly, after seeing the performances of these two gentlemen and the issues that continue to dominate our political agendae, I am not surprised with the latest poll results.
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Ref 308
Very true, but I suspect that what he is really courting is their votes. Senior citizens seldom change their convictions on political and religious issues.
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Ref 317
You are absolutely right, but don't forget the old adage "the end justifies the means". If people are gullible enough to buy the rhetoric, politicians will oblige them by feeding them whatever they want.
In addition to the cynical religious overtones, I thought the reference to the $700 billion that we send to people that don't like us as payment for oil imports intentionally misleading considering the fact that most of our imports come from Canada, Mexico, and Nigeria. The insinuation was, obviously, that we are paying Muslim nations billions of dollars for a natural resource readily available at home.
Needless to say, we must consider the place where the interviews took place before we draw conclusions from the adoring responses to McCain's statements, and the polite but cool welcome that Obama had. However, it is apparent that some of the old wedge issues that dominated past elections are still very much in the minds of a large segment of our electorate, at least until election day.
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Dear Mr. Webb: Not much mysterious here in BHO's behaviour.
This man has NO core values, other than political ambition--e.g. win at any cost, even if it means turning the convention over to The Hilary. Just imagine what His presidency will look like, constantly deferring to Herself.
This man has NO realistic experience with or view of the the world, and is completely unqualified to lead.
No one needed to 'waterboard' BHO.
This is a case of Him being Himself, which is even more frightening, considering that He is posing as a secular Messiah.
Think hard, everyone, about the choice that confronts us. It's a dangerous world out there, and this man is not up to the job.
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Simon21, #307, some of our problems are due
to the fact that democracy, like any system,
tends to work better on a small scale than on
a large one.
So, when you see us lurch from one extreme
to another, and have the attention span of a
small child, please keep in mind that a large
system is much easier to subvert than a smaller
one.
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#328, OldSouth, I tend to agree with you, but
the electorate is so unhappy with the status quo
that it would take - dare I say this - something
extraordinary like a "war" in Europe to change
public sentiment.
The Russians, who are obviously hoping that
Obama will get in, are exerting the opposite
effect. It may only be a small nudge, but that
is all that McCain needs.
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328, OldSouth.
I think you have it wrong. ALL politicians are ambitious.
He is not turning the convention over to Hillary. He is getting rid of her.
He is suited to international relations because he is upbringing is international. He has a big edge on people who read books or politicians who only see foreign lands at state dinners and through the window of an air-conditioned limo.
He has more experience as an elected official than does Clinton.
"Messiah," in this case, is a propaganda label chosen by his enemies.
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It's not blackmail. It's obvious that Obama cannot win the Presidency unless he gets the democratic vote out.
Inspite of his charisma and appeal to young liberals, he has not won the hearts of the middle and working class democrats. Mainly because his oratory has so far had little substance.
Obama is about par with McCain right now. When you take into consideration his appeal, the last ten years of republican leadership and his epic defeat of the Clintons you might think the White House is his for the taking. The fact is he has not convinced a lot of middle of the road Americans.
I doubt if he will win the TV debates very clearly either. Which means that he MUST galvanize the Democratic voice. Hillary knows this too. The Clintons must be really ticked that they did not win, but my bet is they'd rather support Obama than see McCain scrape home.
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#328
It is entirely possible that Obama was doing something that McCain is totally unacquainted with: thinking.
What McCain will do in any circumstances is rather predictable.
The unpredictable is the personal opportunism:
-Talking against torture and then sponsoring a bill incorporating it.
- Marrying advantage (the second time)
America, thanks to its Bible Belt and its opportunists, has elected a "Decider" who dependably makes the wrong decisions and wants to be a War President.
McCain is guaranteed to be a War President and not a bright one.
(Is it true that he was fourth from the bottom of his class?)
As a "war hero" flyer, he got shot down early, bungled an escape attempt and spent five years in prison.
Later, There was no useful work that he could do, so he was made a figurehead as head of the Naval Academy.
He also served as a pretty figure as a Congressional liaison in Washington.
His childhood and adult life has been formed and indoctrinated in the military.
He insists that America should have stayed in Vietnam and "won" and made similar assertions about Iraq.
In short, it seems predictable that he would be less intelligent and worse than Bush.
Now, if anyone knows where he has been successful in productive life- any functional task that he has done well, anything that did not involve being on the government payroll, please indicate.
Re Obama: It is understandable that anyone possessing intellectual capacity would be viewed with deep suspicion and distrust by much of the Bible Belt- but this, too, is predictable.
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Ms. Marbles,
It's hard for me to tell what Obama would do
in an international crisis (which is not a rare
event nowadays).
I'm not saying that he would blunder, but he
hasn't really engaged the international community
during his term in the Senate.
Some of my concerns are voiced
here
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#329
On the basis of redundant systems theory, and on the basis of political history, I disagree that large systems are "always" less stable than small ones.
With "hyperdemocracy", where the media controls the mob, they can quickly become totalitarian.
As becomes especially evident in an economic pinch- the US system is run and controlled by a wealthy elite.
The media, schools and military seek to tell the exploited that they are the beneficiaries of the system- in 1932, the US public decided otherwise.
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allmymarbles (#331), you wrote:
Yes, as are "liberal," "ultraliberal," "socialist," "machine politician," and any number of other terms thrown around by the rabid right. Fearmongering is all they have in the absence of substantive arguments.
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Xie_Ming, McCain is a late bloomer.
Besides, nobody could possibly be less intelligent
than Bush.
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BTW, I am amused that now other bloggers,
either by coincidence or design, are using my
moniker on other blogs.
Has anyone else had this problem?
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I wonder if anybody else has seen this
Now we know what really happened in the bunker.
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Xie_ming (Seeming?)
No. Fifth from the bottom (894th out of 898).G'nR, And you reckon McCain't would be less blunder-prone? And has "engaged" the "international community" more? Either your cheek is bulging more than McCain's or I fear I may have overestimated you.
It ain't me using your moniker, though it's a good'un.
;-)
ed
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334, guns.
No one has presidential experience before he is president? Do we know what Obama would do? Do we know what anyone who has not been chief executive would do?
McCain says he will bring out the guns. Obama says he will start with negotiation. This shows a difference in personality. Because of my own philosophy I would have to take a chance on Obama.
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336, Gary.
I would agree with you on every term except for "machine politician." I think this term has a specific meaning. We speak of the Clinton machine, for instance. That is accurate.
Harry Truman was brought into power by the corrupt Pendergast machine. Although he was an honest senator and president, he was never able to live down his political beginnings.
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340, Ed.
As to McCain's being near the bottom of his class at Annapolis, Jimmy Carter was near the top, if I remember correctly.
Carter was not a great president. Success as a student apparently does not always predict success in the real world.
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#343
Hey Marby,
Carter was rated intellectualy high. Will hebe remembered as a great man? For his presidency or his life?
George Bush is also apparently rated almost genius on the IQ scale. His academic results don't quite live up to it, but whatever. Will he be remembered as a great man?
Only history can judge. I suspect that there are more smart guys who fail than below average guys who excel. And that the below averaqge guys who do have great parents, or one great parent. But we may not be the arbiters of their legacy, yet.
So Iask,how do you feel about what Jimmy Carter does now, and what do you think GW will be doing in 15 years?
Sleep well,
Sam
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332, Brown.
Let's not forget the independents. No one ever really knows what they will do. And then their are those who only have cell phones and cannot be reached for polling. There are lots of question marks.
I am not so sure about that last comment. If the Clintons see themselves as the center of the universe, wouldn't it be in their inteests to have Obama lose and then say, "See I told you so. I should have been the candidate."
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344, Sam.
I like Carter better now than I did when he was president. At least now he can't do any harm and his doddering benevelence has its charm. But he never got my vote because I thought he was a jerk and a bible thumper.
The Bush father was much cleverer than the Bush son, and he was not so insular. Junior should go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever, but who knows....
When it comes to evaluating people I don't necessarily trust history. Kennedy was not a remarkable president (except for his ties to mobsters), yet he gets lots of pages. Nixon is underrated. His foreign policy won us respect all over the world. And he courageously devalued the dollar, a necessary, but not popular move.
I think Truman and Roosevelt have the fame they deserve. They were both innovative in dealing with difficult situations. For Roosevelt that would be his jobs program and the institution of social security. For Truman it would be his foresight in devising the Marshall Plan.
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In reply to #323, jacksforge wrote:
"321 i wish they would just impeach the two
in the white house."
You make me fear that this is a place where those with BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) come to vent.
I assume you mean George Bush and Richard Cheney, rather than George and Laura. The Vice president doesn't live in the White House. The VP lives at corner of 34th Street and Massachusetts Avenue.
Impeachment now would seem a tremendous demagoguery, a waste of time, and waste of resources for the last few months of their tenure. Also, can you imagine the politics involved during an election. You might as well be wishing McCain into office if the Dems resorted to that tactic at this point. I'm sure you have your laundry list of high crimes and misdemeanors on which to convict them, although Congress is not yet on board (and for sanities sake I hope they won't). The Congressional investigation wouldn't even be started before the election was completed.
If you ever do find a magic lamp and get some wishes, you might just try wishing away the past eight years instead. Although, even with a Gore, or Kerry administration, it's hard to imagine an Iraq with Saddam still in power. I fear it would have been a similar outcome with a different set of arm chair bureaucrats screaming at the TV.
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The Government of Israel gave the evangelical leader Jerry Falwell a Learjet.
Does anyone suppose that this investment was based on a desire to "accept Christ"?
Could it have had something to do with his effectiveness in mobilizing political support for Israel?
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All,
I'm a great admirer of Jimmy Carter, and suspect History will regard his apparent 'failures' as more to do with the times (and a certain amount of Republican treachery) than with incompetence. He has certainly been the best ex-president of the past century, and possibly the most honest human to ever get within a mile of the White House..
McCain's academic deficit may or may not be important, but I've seen precious little evidence of good judgement on his part, and there's a trail of poor judgement (Keating, etc.), infidelity, self-service, immodesty, hypocrisy, etc., and he doesn't seem to be improving with age.
As to impeaching (or indicting) Bush and Cheney, it seems unfortunate that they are likely to retire to freely enjoy the benefits of their warmongering and profiteering (and let's not forget the Carlisle Group). Good riddance, even if they're not pursued. A proper cleanout of the stables would involve hundreds and keep thousands of lawyers in their accustomed style for decades.
Sam, Wise words, as usual. I was missing you only this morning, and wondering if you'd tired of our company. Glad you haven't.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Mrs Clinton is on the nomination roll call because as VP, she will then have huge demonstrable support at the convention.
And if I am right, Obama must have decided that to win in November, he needs HRC on the ticket.
I just hope i am wrong.
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N-N,
Me too!
;-)
ed
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In reply to #348,
There is no conspiracy here. Begin announced exactly why he did what he did when he gave him the plane way back in 1979. Why do you dredge it up? I'm a little more concerned about recent rumblings of Russia giving Raul Castro, and Hugo Chavez long ranged strategic bombers. I guess I'd rather have a gift of a Learjet than the message the gift of Tu-160 Blackjack and Tu-95MS Bear bombers would send.
You really seem to pull in Israel into your posts often with off hand commentary. I can only imagine you are trolling for vitriol with your Semite baiting. Do you hate Israel, is that the issue?
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Cool one,
Like it or not, Israel, and America's unswerving, uncritical support of that rogue state lies at the heart of a very large part of sentiments against America.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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nikki (#350), today's newspapers are reporting that the short list is Bayh, Biden, and Kaine. The decision may have been made by now, and it should be announced soon.
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fridgid I know america will not hold these two accountable
(oh you are pedantic when it has NO relevance on the argument).
America is too scared to?what legal reason is there to NOT impeach someone that has lied broken lawsand ignored the constitution.
Or that has given most of the country reason to wonder.
Not as revenge for the clintons impeachment efforts.
But because it is right to do.
Oh and maybe the world might start taking this morally bankrupt nation seriously again.
Oh and it would be a waste of time, for they are almost out.
Well throw them in jail .
Make them pay fines.
Charge them or let every president from now on be crowned emperor.
Becasue as I see it you will never have a more rightous impeachment than now.
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349, Ed.
I was not in the States during Carter's presidency, so can only judge his foreign policy. In my opinion he was woefully lacking. He was too American to understand the world outside.
There was another reason I did not vote for Carter. I never vote for people who are intensely religious. They have too strong a bias (even if benevolent like Carter) and often show poor judgement. Also they tend not to act in the best interests of their constituents because their beliefs take precedence.
Worst cast example -- Joe Lieberman.
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352, Real. In reference to Xie's #348 comment.
You are suggesting that a criticism of Israel is an indication of antisemitism. That is a public relations technique that has beem employed by Israel from day one to discorage criticism.
I think it is important to distinguish between Jews and Israel. Israel is a nation and, as such, is subject to scrutiny, just like any other nation.
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#357
The tactics of the political Zionists are constant:
(1) ad-hominem attack
(2) scream "anti-Semitism"
(3) avoid any facts concerning Israel's terrible religio/ethnic abuse and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
(4) through the US Congress, tap the US taxpayers for funds for Israel.
The gift of a Learjet to the evangelist Jerry Falwell was to further their program of subversion of the US taxpayers.
Rather than deal with the fact, a political
Zionist will resort to personal attack.
_________________
Those who wish ongoing documentation of Israel's viciousness with regard to their Palestinians victims can check today's
otheris.org publication.
There we see that a teenager made a video of an Israeli soldier shooting a captive whose hands were tied.
As a result, her father was imprisoned for three weeks. The trial expenses to get him released were high.
The story is on The Other Israel website.
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When I first read the comment, I really thought that the reference was to South Ossetia being invaded by Georgia. A fight that Georgia lost but can still wield power through the political game that the US is playing in its attempt to divide Europe from Russia.
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What are Americans saying and thinking about Clinton?
http://www.blogher.com/i-get-plane-clinton-supporters-mobilize-video?page=1
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What are Americans saying about Clinton during the convention?
http://www.blogher.com/i-get-plane-clinton-supporters-mobilize-video?page=1
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Appalling political ineptitude from folks who crafted a first-rate primary caucus campaign
? any ?favorite son? would be sweet-talked and indulged for a few dozen delegates ?
? the entire Obama staff should be smiling and courting her ?
? and they seem to be stuck in hissy-fit and fear ?
? whatever happened to the ?courtesy and respect? due the lady who got 18 million votes ???
No wonder Obama?s keeping his head down ?
? the Obama staff is ?happy with her speech? ??
? they should be grateful for whatever she?s willing to give!
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This was the Clinton Convention...and, it
was a good thing!
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