A clever performance
He brought it off. I thought at one stage that the Doric columns (if that is what they were) might fall on him (metaphorically) but they did not. He is too clever for that. His supporters and those sympathetic to him are breathing a sigh of relief and can be optimistic that the speech might really assist his cause, as the New York Times seems to believe.
Old versus new. That was an interesting theme as well and, if they handle it carefully (no bashing grandpa), it could be a rich seam.
As for this - could they perhaps just miss the Bush-Cheney bit and then carry on? What a shame that would be for John McCain.
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The columns were hardly noticeable on CNN, most of the speech being framed in close up or long shot in which the set became blurred. Rather like a surfeit of chocolates, there was too much to digest at one sitting. The reference to his earlier opponents, and one in particular, was gracious but I fear he was trying to be all things to all people. But the 'games' have only just begun and between now and November a lot will become clearer.
I was rather surprised at the overly vivacious Mrs Biden, anyone would have thought she was to be the potential next first lady - and her choice of a scarlet top was injudicious, given that Mrs Obama was far more conservatively dressed. Perhaps Jill has forgotten that red was the favourite colour of Nancy Reagan, but then possibly she wants to evoke that memory for cross-over Republicans. However, in future, she should tone down her gestures and co-ordinate with Mrs Obama. Sounds petty, but she sure did stand out!
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You'd think a convention crowning speech would be inspirational, uplifting, motivating and so on, however this wasn't.
His tone was lecturing even sounding angry a lot of the time.
He of course delivered to the faithful but, considering the convention's theme was about letting the public "get to know him", the arena setting and large stage props if anything only confirmed stories that he was becoming too full of himself.
NObama for this guy, sorry !
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Maybe McCain could capitalze on the hurricane by having the conventioneers act as a rescue squad for the inundated. The politicos could give their speeches from rowboats.
Now that I think about it, it could get him elected.
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At least it would be fun.
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1, David.
C'mon, David. The wives are window dressing. They con't count. That's why Hillary felt so demeaned and had to shore up her "experience."
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Hi Justin,
I remember waaaay back in the early days of Iowa and New Hampshire there was a get-together on BBC News 24 (when it was still called that!) where all the BBC's North America correspondents and experts discussed the upcoming election and were asked to state who they thought would be ultimately elected.
As I recall, you chose John McCain.
Based on this and the previous few weeks, do you still think he'll win or will it be Obama ... ?
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
"As for this - could they perhaps just miss the Bush-Cheney bit and then carry on? What a shame that would be for John McCain."
If Gustav turns into a major disaster and the Republicans are meanwhile holding a convention, they'll look like they're fiddling while Rome burns - with or without GWB. After all the emotion and optimism of the Democratic convention, the last thing John McCain and the GOP would want is a convention with a big storm cloud hanging over them (literally and figuratively.)
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Whatever the naysayers may feel, one's overwhelming feeling watching him on the podium is that he's been given an extraordinary, once-in-a-generation talent as a politician and that he has made the decision that he is prepared to put it to the use of America.
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By the way, the commentators on MSNBC don't seem to believe that the hurricane is the real reason the GOP want to delay. The suspicion is that the Republicans are afraid to come in right on the heels of the Obama stadium extravaganza.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I suppose it might be difficult to name Bobby Jindal as his running mate if the Governor of Louisiana was away mopping up the mess in his state!
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Just watched most of Obama's speech and couldn't help but be impressed. If the US miss an opportunity for such an exciting president it would be a terrible shame. I may even have to stay up and watch a US election night for the first time in my life!
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David_C, somehow everybody seems to
be forgetting us independents.
We are hardly noticeable. If you happen
to look at an American flag, you might
first notice the red stripes. Those are the
Republicans. That blue patch represent
the Democrats.
But, hardly noticeable, between those
red stripes and poking through that blue
patch are us independents, the white parts.
I know that we are not recognized as being
that important. We don't even rate our
own color receptors. But, we are watching.
And so, I eagerly await the day that the
major parties cater to us. I don't think that
we'll see it all at once. Perhaps Barack or
Michelle will wear little white pins, or
we'll see Joe in white golf shoes.
And, someday soon, either Obama or McCain
will be waving our colors, the white flag.
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11, guns.
Glad you saw it before they took it off. Is humor against house rules? That's a new one on me.
As to your question, it would suit my view of the world. And maybe the result wouldn't matter. The thought of sparing another boring convention is appealing, though, isn't it?
Another thought. If McCain has to postpone the convention, will he have to pay for the extra days? Is it in his budget? I don't know why I find that funny. I am probably just in a giddy mood. After Obama's dirge-paced speech I need something to make me laugh. Doesn't he realize that if I am voting for him he owes me more than political babble?
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There's something very appealing (and appropriate) if Bush cancels his visit to the Republican Convention because of a tropical storm. I always thought it would take flooding in Texas due to global warming before Bush would sign up to Kyoto.
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#17, reformedspindoctor, it is a little known
fact that Presidential pens use water-based
ink, so I doubt very much that Bush will
be signing Kyoto if Texas floods.
#16, allmy, for some reason I had exactly
the same thought. Somehow I was extrapolating
my having to move a reservation for a Motel 6
room back a few days for the much larger
scale of a political party.
But then, who would have thought that the
Republicans would ever be short of cash?
It's kind of like a Tom Clancy novel where
the head of the CIA asks a helicopter dealer
if he will take a "company check."
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Hi Justin (my distant Webb relation),
Will you please tell us if after Obama's speech, his supporters in the stadium kept their signs, buttons, and posters or did they leave them on the floor.
As you mentioned on-air, Kerry's supporters didn't feel enthusiastic about him as a candidate or his message whereas Bush supporters did. This was expressed by the desire of their supporters to keep mementos of the events.
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Sounds like Tony Blair. Don't believe a word of it.
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# 6
I too remember being slightly surprised when BBC commentators came out so decisively for McCain. The BBC is meant to be non-partisan (and is funded by the British licence payer) and the outright McCain support was surprising to many of us - especially as there was a truly fascinating story developing around the unexpected Obama phenomenon. The Brits did not want Obama to be belittled by their commentators before we saw what he could do and what he had to say.
I came to the conclusion that this bias was due to McCain's well-known accessibility and his willing to yakyak to the press both homegrown and overseas. I believe that McCain was rare amongst US politicians in his habit of hobnobbing with the press.
It is an amusing factor of this campaign that the minders clamped down firmly on this accessibility and we now have a rather wooden figure spouting platitudes, drilled into him by the backroom boys.
Only Justin can explain to us if this is so.
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And, solely for you edification, Justin, since
you are in the "mile-high city," and a proponent
of our Puritan qualities, I would recommend
as a counterpoint that you visit this
world-reknown magazine headquarters.
I heartily suggest that you beat a path there
before the convention delegates hear about it,
or, alternatively, after they have left town.
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And now, the real news
;-)
ed
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allmy, they got me, too, #11 is RIP.
Or, to quote the old group Queen,
"Another One Bites the Dust."
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>> 20:29 By the way - it's a stunning evening here in Denver. I mention this because some fundamentalist Christians of a right-wing persuasion prayed for rain - proof that God is a Democrat?
Hahaha
How ironic.
wish rain not, lest ye be rained upon
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Barrack Obama seems a nice bloke with great intentions. I guess he'll realise sooner or later that politics is a game played by politicians and business is a game played by business people. Therefore economics is out of their control other than how much they tax it and how they spend the taxes. Generally that means how much they pay themselves and their buddies and their buddie buddies and so on.
He also does not seem like a warmonger in fact quite the opposite. Hopefully he can repair the damage done globally and settle things down again.
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Why all the fuss about the columns - doric or otherwise ?
Washington DC is fuill of buildings with them - The Capitol, Library of Congress, Supreme Court and even the White House has a fair few.
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In 'bringing if off' Obama used a technique which I haven't seen before in political speeches - certainly not ones given before a full crowd in a stadium of that size but then I haven't seen too many like that anyway.
As well as his seamless mingling of use of the teleprompters with speaking to the crowd, he managed to look full into camera as well. Thus the viewer felt included in the speech - in the way that might be expected in a fireside chat.
I don't know how he did this because the cameras seemed to be about a million miles away - I am sure some techie can explain but he achieved it seamlessly. The man really is very smart.
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Obama will never be the President of the United States. The Clintons know that which is why they have voiced their support so strongly.
When Obama loses, the Clintons will be in the wings with the evidence that it was not because of them that Obama lost. The democratic party will implode in recrimination when the initial momentum carried Obama to victory, despite the late run by Hilary.
McCain will win, although he does not deserve to, and I think the interesting part will be who is the VP. It may well be that with the age thing the VP will actually be the President before the end of the McCain term.
America will become more isolationist, if they can eradicate the link between their oil needs and the middle east, they will be able to just go their own way. Russia can have Europe, America does not want to lose any more men on their own soil, or on foreign soil for that matter. They cannot afford these foreign wars, they have to look after their own people.
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The Oracle at Denver has spoken.
What did you expect him to say?
The question of him is whether or not someone who has very little experience in government, no knowledge of foreign policy, no knowledge of the economy, lots of liberal ideas to spend money but no plan to pay for them is capable of being an effective president.
His answer is "yes I can."
But my fear is "I am not convinced so far and I don't think so." A lot of other Americans have the same concerns.
I think what he has going for him is that in the last 8 years the stock market hasn't gone up. If he would outline a credible plan for making the stock market go up, I'd be far more interested.
Given the dangers around the world, I also have to ask which of these two is less likely to get us into a shooting war with Russia and which is most likely to eliminate our real threats from Iran and al Qaeda. I don't know but I'd think McCain.
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#1 - in reference to David's blog ...
David, you're right - it is petty. what does it matter what the women are wearing? it's like the attention given to women as clothes-horses in reporters' questions to actresses on red carpets - always dresses and designers, dresses and designers. They're just clothes.
Go Obama - hope my absentee ballot counts this time!
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What is vitally important in a president is his capacity to project sound leadership and moral standards.
What is clear from watching the convention - and from reading one or two American blogs - is that Bush has not just been a catastrophy internationally but also nationally. This republican administration must be that of the worst president in American history.
For us in Europe, thanks to his absolute lack of moral authority, we are having to face recession because of what Democrat delegates called "the subprime scam". This is the worst downturn since tthe end of the eighties /early nineties - Bush father's watch when the scam was leverage buyouts.
At the same time our economies are being drained by the efffects of 2 wars - one of which may have been justified the second certainly not - and the absolutely incompetent planning of the aftermath of these conflicts.
It is not really imortant whether Obama has enough experience to be president. What IS important is his capacity to make informed, moral, decisions. Once in the White House he can surround himself with hundreds of years of experience with his advisors - he has already begun the process by selecting Biden as running mate. What counts is his capacity to evaluate information and to take sound, moral decisions.
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The future against the past has got to be Obama's over-riding theme as it allows him to be gracious to McCain while firmly pigeonholing him as someone worthy of an honourable retirement. The political campaigns that get on with quietly putting their incumbent opponents down as part of the problem and look to the future have always done best: think of Blair in 1997.
As for Gustav, what will really put the Republicans in a tight corner is if it slows, and instead of arriving in Louisiana on Tuesday, makes landfall on Wednesday, or the worst scenario for McCain, Thursday: what will they do ... abandon the convention halfway through ... but if they delay for a week then they will allow Obama a real post-convention bounce.
And just to add to their difficulty, TS Hanna has formed outside the Leeward Isalnds and appears to have a route that is aiming at Daytona Beach again, except that it is about 2-3 days behind Gustav, so there is the potential for a double hit from the south and the east in quick succession. If the Republican delay their convention, one week might not be enough, they might have to postpone for a fortnight and then hold it in the wake of what could be a significant natural disaster ...
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Obama is clearly a cool intelligent politician who's willing and able to learn. Gets in experience (Biden) if he hasn't got it himself, just like successful CEOs in business do. And using teleprompters enabled him to give his speech not just to the stadium but to the whole USA. He had to get his message into their homes, and he did. It was not angry, it was inspiring - American version of inspiring.
His speech was full of sound bites because that's all that the great US TV public can take. Al Gore gave them half and hour of policy, all good stuff, and the camera wandered over the faces of people in the stadium whose attention span fell short.
Nobody will ever forgive or forget Bush when he did not rally to flooded New Orleans. Obama would have been down there within hours, directing operations and getting the relief to the people.
McCain looks and sounds like a pensioner who would have a hard time keeping order in a tea party, let alone the House of Congress or the Senate.
How could a drip like McCain ever stand up to Medvedev or Mugabe? Obama certainly could, and he would.
Anyway, if you don't like Obama, the next elections also concern a host of other public offices as well, and the Democrats can field good people to replace the pork-barrel Republicans.
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fine-cut, if I thought that the Bush administraton was responsible for punishing Europe economically and that McCain would just be an extension of the Bush administration, I'd vote for McCain on the strength of that alone.
As in all business cycles, the winter of the cycle the recessionary part is the weeding out process for eliminating the weak. This is how both nature and economies renew themselves. They are the ones who don't survive. As the main drive wheel of the engine of the world's economy slows down, we'll see just which driven wheels come to a screeching halt as the gears jam up. Europe has lived far beyond its means, not paid its fair share of the common defense, and is as arrogant as ever. Let's see what happens when its rhetoric over Georgia bears fruit by antagonizing Russia. A cutoff of oil and gas sometime around January is just the kind of gambit they'd pull. The ice age might come a lot sooner than anyone thought. Also on the bright side, reducton of fossil fuel consumption in Europe would slow global warming, just what it says it wanted and promised to do, a promise unfullfilled so far.
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I notice that #29 has been removed. I have not received any explanation as to why this should be so.
If somebody would be so kind as to give a full explanation I would appreciate it.
If you are going to moderate comments out then I thought there was a requirement to supply reasons. Then I may bring in my own self censorship rather than have you do it.
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The Dems would be well advised now to focus less on Obama and concentrate on the short-comings of the current Rep regime.
Nobody can predict the future but the voters can judge the past.
On that basis, the Reps probably deserve to be thrown out of Government.
Obama and Dem chums then fill the boots.
That is the real power of democracy, to eject those who {are perceived} to have failed.
- with acknowledgements to Anatoly Kaletski (The Times 28 Aug 2008).
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# 37 MarcusAII
WHO'S rhetoric over Georgia ?
Who was the first one to sound off against Russia (with a paid consultant to the impressionable Georgian President on his own staff) ?
Sometimes your comments are not worthy of response (see Stock Market, above) but there are other times when you should not be allowed to get away with your nonsense.
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For David Cunard,
Free at last! I think a picture says more than 1000 words, yet again. I reckon you should follow her example and enjoy the release. I think that , from thousands I've looked at, it's the first believable smile I've seen. She's not that bad looking, really.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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The Obama speech was great. What it lacked in energy (a criticism from some analysts), it made up for in finally using what were unarguably specifics about his policies. On the topic of abortion, he was fairly respectful, too, pointing out that almost all Americans wish to reduce unwanted pregnancies. Though the big fuss is Americans' divergent views on how this issue should be tackled, not disagreement on that ultimate goal.
And since you haven't made a blog post for this question, for a prediction of John McCain's VP candidate:
How about Ron Paul (just tossing a wild guess out there)? Then would [Ron] 'Paulestinians' stop flooding message boards across the Internet, peddling their candidate?
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I don't know what effect Obama's speech had on the columns behind him, but this grandpa was happy to have lived long enough to hear it. Obama's nomination is a historic event for our nation, and his ability to convey his message and inspire our society is second to none. Well done.
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Tag,
You'll need to be patient. Your post may well re-appear, long after anyone is likely to see it, and when it's context is no longer immediate. Alternatively, the current note will change to say it has been removed for breaking the house rules.
In the first case, you'll receive no notice, no apology, nothing. In the second case you'll get an email with a vague explanation and the opportunity to re-post (if you can figure out the offending bit and modify/remove it)
Patience
ed
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A great speech, a point by point defense of the harshest criticism levelled against him. He did not mention race except to note yesterday's anniversary of the I Have a Dream speech. I liked the celebrity jab about his grandmother and those in his life being the people who shaped him. The columns reminded me of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC. It was inspiring and glad he is on the attack at last.
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As a resident of Florida I find it very disturbing to read so many negative comments about the possibility of hurricane Gustav disrupting the GOP convention and causing harm. I disagree with McCain's policies and I am convinced he is out of touch with the issues that matter to us and too to meet the challenges of the presidency of the USA, but I look forward to hearing from him.
I was very impressed with Al Gore's substantive speech and Susan Eisenhower's courage and message.
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ref #34
Typical partsian comments.
First the blame for Katrina is partialy Bush's but far more democrats Ray Nagin the Mayor of NO and former governor also a dem.
They refused Bush's help at early stagees for political reasons.
Second McCain has the wisdom, Obama empty naivite does not.
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Let's get beyond the rehotoric.
This was a typical speech.
First Obama is going to raise taxes, capital gains effect all investors.
He claims the Dems are the party of FDR and JFK, not anymore. The party of Jimmy Carter(The U.S Neville Chamberlen)
No energy policy, just claims of promoting alternatives.
And if McCain agrees with Bush 90% of the time how often does Obama agree with George soros?
95%
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I've actually felt quite inspired by watching all this, and I speak as someone who's usually pretty cynical about politics. Wouldn't it be great if Obama gets the Republicans out of the White House and starts repairing all the damage that they've done not only to America but also to the rest of the world?
I really hope it will turn out that way, and wish Obama every luck.
I just have this nagging doubt at the back of my mind. I remember back in 1997 thinking how wonderful it was that that nice Mr Blair had finally got rid of the evil Tory government we'd had for so long, and look how that turned out.
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No.45
Please give an example of McCain's wisdom.
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Justin - a correction
Obama did not say he would eliminate the US's dependence on foreign Oil in 10 years. He said he said he WOULD END DEPENDENCE on MIDDLE-EAST OIL IN 10 years - A more achieveable target I think !
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The BBC broke in for various breaks to announce forthcoming BBC programs, so I missed portions of the speech.
He spoke of reducing premiums, did he not also say something about providing care or premiums for those who could not afford it?
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Thinking MCain will win doesnt suggest a pro republican bias.
The gushing fawning response by all at the Beeb shows their real leaning. ( how many times can you get historic and electric and strong into one report without it sounding like you're some pop groupie talking about take that)
It seems odd that the Beeb sent memos out during the gulf war telling their reporters to not 'go native' and be too pro the soldiers and yet they are happy to have their reporters who are 'embedded' at the democratic convention become so sucked into the proceedings that they are probably wearing Obama 08 pins.
Is the BBC not supposed to be balanced even just slightly. Go on try it just for one day you might find someone elses point of view refreshing even if you dont agree with it.
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Well the speech wasn't exactly centre-ist, which is what Obama was previously accused of. It's the sort of language social democrats in Europe would use- in fact it's more liberal in theme than any of the major political parties in the UK. It's about as brave a speech as people could realistically have expected. Astute to realise that the working class vote across all of America is up-for-grabs.
There really is some pretty daring language about state aid and health provision that in any market economy seem like left-wing ideas.
So the speech was really quite politically slanted- bitterly critical of past failure but well balanced in that it wanted to identify solutions to the problems.
Maybe Clinton was correct in saying Obama is on the right side of history.
Mind you, I could do without seeing him until election day to be honest. The GOP convention will be a welcome relief and intriguing to see how they counter such a successful convention for the Democrats.
With such a strong cast (John Kerry was well down on the list) and many of the Republican old guard now irrecovably discredited, shamed, scandaled and discarded, does McCain have a base of support from senior and credible figures in his own party or is his job really just to lead the party through this period of gloom with a modicum of grace and dignity?
I'm one of those people who couldn't understand how Al Gore didn't trounce Bush in 2000 and couldn't understand why Boris Johnson could be elected as Mayor of London so feel free to ignore any of my opinions.
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ref #48
The sucess of the surge
A realistic look at the illegal immigration problem
A need to look at the full spectrum of solutions to the enrgy crisis
Please give me one major acomplishment of Obama's in the U.S Senate?
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From Justin's link
And, with respect to columns and such, perhaps the less said, the better, eh, Johnboy?;-)
ed
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Obama...Obama...Obama...
Today on BBC news site: 10 items on Obama, zero on McCain
On this blog: 12 items on Obama, zero on McCain
OK its his convention - but it's no different any other day.
I know people in the UK who can not name the republican candidate. I know one person who thought Obama was president - having just beaten Clinton: she had never heard of McCain.
I know you all see it as self evident that Obama 'must' win to save the world from another Bush, but....
...aren't you going to look rather silly if the British public wake up one morning to find a republican they have never heard of has been elected as president?
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jackanderton #52 - the reason you could't understand how Gore won is because you only ever heard one side of the debate - Gore's. You never heard from Americans that supported Bush so you didn't realise they existed.
If the news coverage had been representative of the true situation you would have been able to assess that the race could go either way.
It's happening again.
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As with most of the speeches I've seen in this campaign, it was rich on assertions of change but very thin on any real policy. I can't really blame Obama however, most of the US networks' convention coverage (that we received in the UK) focused more on the views of their commentators than what was being said from the podium. To put a new twist on an old saying; you get the politicians that your media demand.
Given the implications for the rest of the world of America's choice of President, I find its apparent unwillingness to engage in real political debate deeply worrying. The rest of the world having been lead into an unjustifiable war and an unnecessary recession by decisions of the current American administration, perhaps its time the rest of the world had a vote in the US Presidential election.
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Aren't you supposed to be a neutral observer - you and disgustingly the Today programme this morning seem to have abandoned all sense of balance. You an Jim Naughtie's own views are clouding your reporting. Also look up the word Hubris - it is very aposite at the moment
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30 "MarcusAurelius"II wrote
The Oracle at Denver has spoken.
What did you expect him to say?
The question of him is whether or not someone who has very little experience in government, no knowledge of foreign policy, no knowledge of the economy, lots of liberal ideas to spend money but no plan to pay for them is capable of being an effective president.
His answer is "yes I can."
But my fear is "I am not convinced so far and I don't think so." A lot of other Americans have the same concerns.
Given the dangers around the world, I also have to ask which of these two is less likely to get us into a shooting war with Russia and which is most likely to eliminate our real threats from Iran and al Qaeda. I don't know but I'd think McCain.
................................
I'd drop the username if I was you. So at odds with the contents of your postings. Which, if I am correct suggest you would vote for a pig in a hat if it was standing for the Republican party.
The reason America is ready for change is not just the economy. It is the McCarthyesque assault on civil liberties, the aggressive foreign policy and the greedy self interest of corporate America which Bush and the neo-cons have promoted for eight years.
There is a palpable difference between the scaremongering 1950s attitudes of the Republican party and the new mulitlateral thinking offered by Obama. I think the American public know that. That is why I think Obama will win.
The speech was excellent, by the way. He is a very good speaker, in a way McCain cannot even begin to approach.
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ref #52
Well in answer to your question on how gore lost?
Al gore did not stand for anything when he ran. And even though people may not have liked Bush's positions they knew where he stood.
The Old Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don't
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No.53
Thank you, but taking your first point, "The success of the surge"
let me get this right; if two burglers were discussing the best way to break into a house and one said "lets go in the back way because there are no alarms", he should be congratulated for his wisdom?
My point is they shouldn't have been there in the first place, therefore wisdom doesn't even come into it. Which also goes some way to answer your last point.
As for points two and three, I'll leave others more qualified to judge if any of McCain's views are wiser than Obama's, somehow I think not.
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Magic,
Pot, kettle.;-)
ed
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Thank you Ed #42.
I am beginning to work out exactly how these blogs actually function. No ordinary man in the street, the man on the Clapham ominbus is allowed to have a valid opinion.
Would I be right in saying that it has to come from sort of expert, or even worse an individual, whose job it is to go onto these blogs as a method to spread the official message.
I actually think that this is one huge game being played by the politicos who have actually completely destroyed the concept of what could have been with the internet. Our freedoms are being eroded in a way that many do not understand.
Court injunctions, banning free speech, of which I know of, and the appalling power of these moderators. Print my blog, or at least explain why it has been purged.
Freedom of expression , bah humbug.
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Good Oratory skills are fine.
However, good oratory without results, rings hollow.
Why is it the BBC and most of the media are absolutely giving Obama a pass when it comes to examining this real accomplishements.
Where is the "Change" this man brought to Chicago or Illinois?
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# 59 Notting Hill
Don't worry. I have come to the conclusion that Marcus Aurelius is actually one of the moderators who comes in if we are all getting too positive in our reactions. Ginger us up a little bit maybe - insult a whole continent, express "Greed is Good" and hopefully start a few more wars and tread over a few more victims.
He can't be real for sure - or do such views really exist in the eighth year of the twenty first century ?
Someone should come clean.
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TAG,
No, but one has to be careful to observe the "house rules", and they'll provide a link to them in the email notifying you of removal...As to some useful tricks, try following the blue link. And, no, I have no official connection with the BBC or its blog network, nor any organisation - simply an enthusiast enjoying the "triple freedom" - Kids grown, mortgage paid, ancestors buried...
The Mods (who are as Gods) are also individuals, and as such, inconsistent and of varying prejudice.
So, what else is new?
Peace to all,
ed
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ref #62
I've voted for Presidential canidates of both parties.
Have you?
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A preview of things to come?
;-)
ed
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Well received, it seems
I wonder what next week's front pages will look like.
;-)
ed
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For TAG,
House Rules
Good luck
ed
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Some are saying Sarah Palin from Alaska for McCain's VP
VP speculation
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35. MarcusAureliusII: Obama sounded eerily like a socialist last night. Not unlike many liberals.
I am always concerned when I hear liberals deciding that the oil companies' profits should be handed over to them to use for their own agendas. You know, because they have so much money...why should they get to keep it all? Scary.
Obama should not talk about business, foriegn policy or defense. He is completely out of touch in these areas.
He should stick to giving money to unions, socializing medicine and bashing Bush. Those themes seem to play well to his base.
Oh, and praising his base really seems to make them swoon. (Are our citizens really so emotionally need?) That's another winner for him. After all, it's not about him, it's about them, remember?
I believe the democrats need Bush more than ever. Where would their campaign be without him? The way they carry on about him, one would think he was running again. Has he reincarnated into McCain's body? What next? A seance? Or even an exorcism?
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That New York Times piece you linked is by the television writer. It is about the coverage of the event, not the speech itself.
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Ref 57
"As with most of the speeches I've seen in this campaign, it was rich on assertions of change but very thin on any real policy".
Political speeches are not supposed to be college lectures filled with specifics. President Carter tried that approach, including charts filled with exhaustive detail. It didn't take him very far.
If you want to learn more about the specifics of Obama and McCain's proposals you should visit their websites.
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MagicKirin #60,
In response to jackanderton you said, "ref #52 Well in answer to your question on how gore lost? Al gore did not stand for anything when he ran. And even though people may not have liked Bush's positions they knew where he stood. "
Your answer is entirely incorrect. Please get the facts straight - Al Gore WON the popular vote so it seems pretty clear that people did NOT like Bush's positions.
It was the Supreme Court, not the people, who decided to throw that election to Bush.
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So it is Palin ... well she is no match for Biden, and on the assumption that the prime criteria for VP is their ability to take over if the candidate dies in office, she is considerable less experienced, travelled, or educated than Obama: so McCain has just shot his main line of attack on Obama in the foot, or perhaps he does really want Obama to win ....
The other question that arises is whether, apart from trying to win a few disaffected PUMAs, McCain is that worried about losing Alaska because of Stevens indiscretions? I can't see how Palin is going to help that much in Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, ... unless he thinks a gun-wielding protestant woman is all that is required ... Or perhaps he thinks they might lose Idaho as well ....
And then there is the marriage of Gustav and Hanna ....
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So Palin accepted the job but does not know what it involves:
she could not answer the question of whether she wanted the job “until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day. I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here….”
Perhaps someone should tell her that she will be a statutory member of the National Security Council, for a start .... and for a Preseidential canididate who does not believe in the pork barrel,n was it wise to select a VP whose first comment was that she wanted it to be 'a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans' ...
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Ed (#54), I wouldn't poke fun at McCain for taking an official picture on the Capitol steps, but what's with those free-standing Corinthian columns in another picture?
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Sarah Palin is so conservative on social and economic issues that any Hillary woman voting for her is doing so entirely out of gender loyalty. At the end of the day, most people will vote on issues. Geraldine Ferraro had no impact in 1984 and the same goes for Palin in 2008.
She's so young, inexperienced and has zero name recognition that it is very obviously a token gesture to attract female voters. It shows McCain thinks he cannot win by running a conventional campaign on the issues. A sign of such weakness that he's reaching for a wild card. Due to his age and health issues, he needed to pick someone who could be a plausible Commander in chief. Biden fills that role for Obama, but Palin is not Presidential material, not for another 10 years anyway.
It does however shake things up in a dramatic way and the Dems have to change their strategy a little. Both Michelle and Hillary must become more visible on the campaign trail and Obama should announce that he will appoint Hillary to a senior position in his government.
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A turn up for the book! Sarah Palin, female and younger than Mr Obama, is the McCain VP pick. Whether being Governor of Alaska for less than two years is sufficient expereince will be a debating point, but she's against abortion, apparently deeply religious and supposedly appealing to disaffected Clinton supporters. An interesting mix, although whether she is suitable to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency is highly questionable. Is she really qualified to be Commander-in-Chief? I hope she can take the rough and tumble that Mrs Clinton did!
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But, one and all, the central point is:
He means not a word of it!
Just one example:
Elimination of capital-gains tax on small businesses??? Or on only some small businesses? Why that tax is the Holy Grail of the socialists who run the Democrat Party!
They don't mean a word of it!!
Obama himself is a fabrication from ground up, and this laundry list of self-pitying whines and grand promises is a thin tissue of fabrication.
He knows it, the Dem's leadership knows it, and if you will actually READ what the man said, you will know it as well.
He wishes to appear conservative enough to deflect attention from the fact that he is a socialist, on the left edge of this society in both culture and political thought.
This man is a danger to our freedoms.
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TAG (#63) is dead wrong on the matter of blogs and free expression. This Justin Webb's blog. He can as biased as he pleases in his own offerings, and as arbitrary and selective as he pleases in deciding which posts to publish. As has been said, "freedom of the press belongs to the man who owns one" (A. J. Liebling).
Today, the internet and world-wide-web give everyone a virtual press at reasonable cost. Your "free expression" can be achieved by creating your own website.
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The McCain campaign were quick of the mark, well prepared and ran this (updated?) entry in Wikipedia. A pity The (London) Times didn't read it because they write she "is a dynamic mother of five who became the youngest governor in Alaskan history when she took office in December 1982." Actually it was 2006. We can see where the Murdoch press is going, but such exaggerations are bound to be noticed!
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McCain has chosen Palin.
McCain/Palin will win in a landslide. Obama might not even win his home state of Illinois.
Where white middle-class suburban moms have long held the swing vote.
Sorry Dems. You threw a nice party and all --but you are about to experience the fury od many women scorned and see hw powerful women really are in the US.
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It also makes the Republican attacks on Obama's youth and inexperience look ridiculous. That was the central theme of their campaign against him!
Anyway, Andrew Sullivan sums it up very well here:
"The first criterion for a veep - and I'm simply repeating a truism here - is that they are ready to take over at a moment's notice. That's especially true when you have a candidate as old as McCain. That's more than especially true when we are at war, in an era of astonishingly difficult challenges, when the next president could be grappling with war in the Middle East or a catastrophic terror attack at home. Under those circumstances, we could have a former Miss Alaska with two years under her belt as governor. Now compare McCain's pick with Obama's: a man with solid foreign policy experience, six terms in Washington and real relationships with leaders across the globe.
One pick is by a man of judgment; the other is by a man of vanity."
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The noun MARCUS AURELIUS has 1 sense:
1. Emperor of Rome; nephew and son-in-law and adoptive son of Antonius Pius; Stoic philosopher; the decline of the Roman Empire began under Marcus Aurelius (121-180)
So, ..., just when his ideas started to sound promising, ..., the decline begins.
;-)
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Phwarrrrh!
"She'll certainly enliven John McCain's campaign"
-- BBC News
;-)
ed
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What on earth is going on with the moderation process at the BBC. Why all the delays.
My earlier comments which have been referred #29 related to the choice of VP by McCain, now I can well understand why.
With Palin as his running mate then wow this really does set the cat amongst the pigeons. A mom from Alaska, this is absolutely amazing. With McCains age there is every possibility that she could become the President.
I will leave it to the experts to have their say but nobody could see this extra-ordinary choice. Mc Cain will now win, of that there can be no doubt.
No doubt this post will not be allowed, it is not from an expert. Mind you she is not from Washington. This is brilliant.
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Seems to be a bit of a moderation queue..
Sarah Palin?
From Alaska?
Is she a lumberjack?
Is she OK?
Does she sleep all night and work all day?
Is she a good pick? She ticks some boxes :
Young, Female (any stray Hillary supporters out there not yet fully healed...), Conservative (at least anti-abortion and member of NRA) but is she a creditable CnC if McCain doesn't last the full 4 years?
You're all doing very well !!
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David_Cunard (#89), don't overlook the fact that she was also mayor of Wasilla, Alaska.
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TAG,
Surely you jest!But she's sure good lookin'!
;-)
ed
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Gov Palin is an intriguing pick.
Not on most radar screens untill 48 hours ago.
It reflects McCain maverick personality
Cynically this is an attempt to grab angry PUMAs
But she does have more experience and has done more than Barack.
Also she has fought corruption and patronage in Alaska.
and despite Pelosi and Reid claims they have done nothing to change the culture.
Which is why the Dem led congress has lower apporval ratings than Bush
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While a smart pick by McCain, very risky, and could be the next Dan Quayle. Anyone asked her to spell potato yet? Wait a mo, from Idaho, so should be a walk in the park. Anti-choice fine for the conservatives, but not the mainstream.
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Palin does have experience as second banana. Although she was Miss Wasilla, she was runner-up for Miss Alaska.
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#84. MikeIL "McCain/Palin will win in a landslide." I think not - five children indicates no use of birth control, deliberately bringing into the world a sick, never-to-be-normal child indicates selfishness, not compassion, and the lack of any meaningful experience indicates that she would not be fit to be President of the United States. The McCain team chose boldly, but wrongly and I'd say that (despite my prediction to the contrary) this could well be the nail in the McCain campaign coffin.
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*4, MikeIL
Actually, Palin is a very defensive pick: the only states that a gun-toting christian conservative woman is going to influence are Ohio (possibly), Indiana, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Montana, and possiblly New Mexico: all of those states voted GOP last time, and all are on the Dem list this time round. The other reason for picking her is because of the Stevens indictment and the risk of losing his senate seat. On top of that, she might attract a few PUMAs, but not any who believe in the right to choose.
Hence McCain has decided that this election will be fought on GOP turf, rather than trying to loosen a Dem state away from them. Or to put it politely, he's trying to lose gracefully and protect as much of the existing GOP as he can against a landslide.
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It looks like Hillary's "No Way, No How, No McCain", got McCain wound up to pick an unknown female VP to beat Hillary at becoming the possible first woman President, or to steal Hillary's Democratic supporters? McCain has shown his male chauvinistic nature by trying to use a woman as a pawn in the political game to win an election - a dangerous and selfish move - putting America's future at red alert/ high risk for if he dies in office this unkown will be President. What a joke, and even in the face of this woman currently being under federal investigation for abuse of office, he still chooses her which is poor timing and poor judgment.
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I think Palin was a brilliant pick by McCain in the short-term. All conversation around the country about the spectacle that was the Obama speech in particular, and the dem's convention in general, will grind to a halt as we all try to figure out who Palin is and what she stands for. After the holiday, when most Americans tune into political news again, the republicans will be into the full swing of their convention. It was a great way to minimize the post-convention swing that the dems would have otherwise experienced.
I'm not sure about the long-term consequences though. As many have noted, her pick undercuts many of his criticisms against Obama. I think she may have been a bit of a panic pick by him. After seeing just how well the dem's convention had been received, I don't think McCain wanted to chance a pick like Romney or Pawlenty. These were, after all, the people who had been doing a lot of speaking for him, making the Sunday talk show rounds, etc. If McCain had really been thinking Palin all along, she would have been more thoroughly vetted in front of the American public.
We'll have to see how it all shakes out.
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McCain leaves his first wife for a beautiful heiress, now chooses a former Miss Alaska for a running mate. Anyone see a pattern here? She has made an appeal for PUMAs, but whether are they are smart enough to look at the experience (or lack thereof) remains to be seen. Should we ask how Biden looks in a swimming costume? One or two piece?
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It's amusing to hear the criticism of Palen because she's inexperienced.
If she's too inexperienced for VP, what does that say about Obama's lack of experience for the presidency? That should be even more alarming.
If anything, she's made him look even more inexperienced. I wouldn't have thought that was even possible.
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Hate to say I told you so. Well, actually I don't hate to say it.
McCain felt he did not require someone to bolster his experience, so he made a tactical choice. Just as I said he would.
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Magic,
Aye, she's been mayor of a wee town and helped her hubby sell atvs....She has had more kids, though.
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Sarah Palin is a major mistake for McCain - she will implode on the run in to the election massively.
It will make it an incredibly close election slightly less close, and rebukes every question of experience on Obama's part straigt away. Palin has zero experience, and as McCain might well not make it to term two the question will be who is ready to lead for the next 8 years.
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99. Candace9839:
"McCain leaves his first wife for a beautiful heiress, now chooses a former Miss Alaska for a running mate. Anyone see a pattern here?"
If anything, you are following a pattern. Try to get your mind around more than physical attributes.
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Sarah Palin is a refreshing breeze blowing in from Alasaka.
I feel very blessed that my two daughters now have a strong, intelligent, loving woman to look up to in American national politics.
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99, Candace.
Now, now, give the man credit. He made a shrewd choice. He's a sly old fox.
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There is a comment on csmonitor.com today
wherein a pundit says "McCain, like me, is a crap shooter..and a crap-shooter wants to put his whole pile in the middle of the table".
Not being a crap shooter, I don't fully understand the analogy.
However, I understand perfectly well that McCain could be a crap-shooter.
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#81
Study these inputs to see the mentality of those who direct the ones who put on sheets and burn crosses!
The slime of personal denigration from those without ethics or morality!
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Come on, Justin! Surely she's worth a new thread (with loads of pictures) please.
;-)
ed
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#95 Magic
Not be dense, but what is a "PUMA"?
#97 Sylbia
Not "Federal Investigation". Please get your information right before you judge.
Palin does not embody unbridled hatred. I do not think she has to actively attack someone in order to have focus.
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#96, MarkfromOxford, McCain has to be defensive;
the Libertarian party is running strongly in some
battleground states, particularly in the West,
and I don't think that Nader will be much of
a factor in this election.
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A comment from here
My, b ut the servers are busy - no response from Alaska's official state sight - you can imagine why...;-)
ed
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Awwww! Huntin' shootin' & fishin'
And she wears fur (Shock! Horror!)
;-)
ed
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The parallels between Obama's decision to pick Biden, a foreign policy expert, and McCain's decision to pick a Governor with two-years of management and fiscal experience are unmistakable. Both acknowledge weaknesses and the need to address them.
It remain to be seen whether or not women will cast their vote based strictly on gender. Quite frankly, I'll be very surprised if they do.
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It's interesting that while on the one hand, Obama
is able to move to the center and reinvent himself,
there is a lingering distrust of him out there that
he is really a closet liberal who would hang Poland
out to dry and then hand it over to Putin to hang
in his meat locker.
And, while there is this general distrust of Obama
because large swaths of the electorate don't
see enough of a voting record to trust him with the
presidency, he enjoys the unremitting support
of his party.
On the other hand, McCain's problem is really
just as bad, if not worse. He has an extensive
centrist record, which puts him at odds with
the powers that be in his own party. So, he
has to cater to the Neocons, and is unable
to position himself as a centrist.
I mean no offense to ferrets and the like,
but his handlers don't want the conservatives
to accuse him of being a weasel.
Given this disadvantage, and the fact that
Bush and Cheney follow him around like
relatives that have just been released from
loony bins, it's surprising that McCain is
doing so well in the polls as he is.
McCain's biggest hope is that Putin will do
something provocative between now and
the election, like attacking Ukraine.
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The GOP is not going down without a fight.
For this election:
She is a governor and, as such, has executive experience, even if it is only two years.
She has experience with big oil and will address energy issues.
She is a woman who will try to appeal to the women voters of the Republican party who are about to jump ship and the Hillary voters who want to see a woman in the White House.
She is a strong conservative who will try to gell the base.
For 2012:
The GOP will more than likely run her as the leading candidate. If McCain wins he has said he will only serve one term. If he doesn't win this will give her the exposure for a strong campaing in four years.
Very, very interesting. Still like Obama though.
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mwmonk, it's a little early to write off Palin.
Executive experience running a state is no
less of a qualification than being in the Senate.
A lot depends now upon how articulate she is
and how well she can appeal to women and
people under 40.
Lack of experience more or less goes with
the youth and "change" vote. Look how far
Obama has gotten with that message.
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Ed (#109), Justin must still be hung over from a post-convention bash.
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So McCain has chosen Palin; the Ron Paul guess was off....
Many will critique McCain's decision to pick a woman as shamelessly pandering to women in a misguided attempt to win their votes. However, Obama's decision to choose Biden is every bit as pandering as McCain's opinion to choose Biden.
Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama: a 'black' man who is young and mistaken for being elitist, Muslim, and foreign. He is seen among some as being inexperienced, having only been a Senator in Congress for a couple of years, and as being too weak or kind to be tough.
He picks: a 'white' man who is elderly and still is considered to be one with the common man due to his blue-collar roots. He is Roman Catholic and is not considered foreign or exotic in the least. He is seen as experienced as he has served in the Senate for decades. He is also seen as being a tenacious fighter.
Republican Presidential candidate John McCain: an old 'white' man who critics try to tie with George W. Bush. He is seen as having been a politician for too long, and thus is not trusted to put the people first. As every single other President has been a 'white' man, his Presidency would not be all the special on that topic. Evangelicals still aren't particularly close to him as they were to some of the other Republican contenders for the nomination.
He picks: a young woman who was made governor of Alaska recently after her predecessor was ousted due to corruption, and she has a squeaky-clean reputation. At 44, she is the youngest of the four Presidential or Vice Presidential candidates. Having been in politics for only a short while, she is seen as being trustworthy and not a 'career politician'. The country has not yet had a woman Vice President. As with McCain, she is pro-life, but is more prominent.
Palin is also a good choice for other reasons. She is immensely popular in Alaska, with an approval rating above 80% (almost unheard of in a democracy). Alaska is culturally aligned with the mountain states (non-Pacific West) and its people tend to be either big or small 'L' libertarians, who comprise a huge proportion of the Independent vote. Additionally, the Mountain States are being considered as the primary 'battleground state' region for this election. Palin is pro-life, but is also a feminist. For Hillary supporters for whom abortion is not their overriding issue (pick on evangelicals with an abortion red line, do you? guess what, the left have their own equivalent.) :-\ Palin offers the chance for a feminist to offer policy advice and be in a position to take the Presidency in the future.
Of the four--Obama, Biden, McCain, Palin--Palin is to only one of them with executive experience, a successful governorship of the state of Alaska. The others are only Senators, legislators who work as a group, not necessarily as individual leaders.
Given McCain's age and history (his ordeal in Vietnam which took a major physical toll), Palin, moreso than Biden, could actually end up taking the Presidency should McCain die (not to be excessively macabre).
And the BBC should change the title of the article announcing McCain's choosing Palin, especially if they still want to argue that they are unbiased. They didn't use 'Obama picks white man for VP'. Palin's gender was a factor, but as this post tries to demonstrate, there were many other factors, too, and McCain is doing exactly what Obama did, and as almost all major Presidential candidates have done in recent history. So, try to be fairer and change the title to something akin to 'McCain chooses Palin (or Alaska governor?) to be VP), will you?
------
Candace9839 (post #99): suggesting that Palin is only a piece of pretty fluff is downright disgusting. Read this post; look at other information about Palin. Palin has far more accomplishments than being a Miss Alaska competitor.
As for experience, pah. So, would you consider voting for Obama? After all, he is criticized for also being inexperienced. If experience is such a big issue for you, you should vote for McCain.
------
Hopefully there aren't too many typos here....
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Re:#104. Waiting for McCain to take the lead on that front. His celebrity advert also featured Paris Hilton. Unfortunately, she didn't play ball and turned the tables on him in her own advert. He is using women as pawns as is his party to a great extent.
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Learn all about her here!
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By choosing an evangelical for the VP spot, McCain succeeded in rallying the Republican base and relegating the Democratic convention and the selection of Biden to distant memory.
Unfortunately for him, his decision also rallies the opposition who will turnout in masse to avoid the dangers inherent in the likely probability of a radical sitting in the Oval Office.
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Ed (#112), adn.com (Anchorage Daily News) is a site with some good local commentary on the Governor.
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gunsandreligion
Regarding post 115.
I couldn't agree more. It's been very interesting to see how McCain's biggest strength, the reason he has enjoyed popularity during the Bush years, has proved to be his biggest liability now that he has to shore up his base to win.
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Good post, Anonymous!
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Re:#106 I did give the devil his due in #93, but it seems a desperate choice that will likely only allow him a graceful concession speech in November. It accomplishes its purpose of distracting attention ahead of his own convention, but in the long term people will ask if they really want a conservative anti-choice beauty queen as President when there are real issues here and abroad that require urgent attention and hard work.
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#81. OldSouth: ". . . the socialists who run the Democrat Party!" There are no socialists in the political meaning of the word. "Socialism" means state ownership and administration of essential industries, by the people, for the people. Even the British Labour Party is no longer "Socialist". It's easy to bandy the word around, as is calling the "left" (such as it is) "Communist", which just ain't so.
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Here is all about her
MikeIl, I am with you on this, a fresh breeze and a wonderful choice. I also find it amusing to watch, "right here on the BBC", the way the left talk out thier ____.
Love the class she showed in cracking the glass ceiling, the dems don't want us to pick up the shards! Eighteen million of them.
Notice as well "the call in the hall" wasn't change or hope, but;... USA!! USA!! USA!!
A unifying chant if I ever heard one!
Oil, Union, Family, a real history, full and complete (None seemed to notice or care to the holes in Obamas past in his 'film') family background, friends that will speak of her, students that have learned from her. Ha!
I'm giddy, got goose bumps and could not be happier!
Lovin' it, peace in th USA
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AnonCal (#119), I wouldn't say Palin is "squeaky clean."
http://community.adn.com/node/128963
Just an allegation at this point, so I don't assume the facts one way or another, but when an issue like this can be raised, it just doesn't pass the "squeak" test.
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#119 "Palin, more so than Biden, could actually end up taking the Presidency should McCain die." And that will prove a major problem - he doesn't even have to die, just be incapacitated. As for being squeaky-clean, she's being investigated this very moment. Wrong for McCain, but right for Obama - if his campaign really takes off the gloves. I can't see that she has a chance against Biden. Would you really want her as 'leader of the free world?'
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Sarah Palin is a good choice, well chosen John McCain. Palin can help him to win over more Evangelicals and people of the Mountain States (Nevada, Montana and Colorado). However, I don't believe she will win over a lot of Hillary supporters. Sarah Palin is to conservative on issues like abortion and gun rights to win the Clintonite vote. Picking Palin as Veep could also undermine John McCain's argument Barack Obama is to inexpierenced to be President. Palin has only 2 years of experience as Governer of small, and in national politics unimportant, Alaska.
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D_C
"is a dynamic mother of five who became the youngest governor in Alaskan history when she took office in December 1982."
I've been on Wikipedia all mornig and your wrong, it has said:
"Palin was elected Governor of Alaska in 2006 after defeating incumbent governor Frank Murkowski in the Republican primary and former Democratic Alaskan governor Tony Knowles in the general election."
all morning.
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#117
I am a woman under 40 - she is going to need to embark on a Herculean endeavor.
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Ed_Inglehart wrote (102):
She's also a governor of a state. ;-)
And by being a mayor and a governor, Palin now has more executive experience than either Barack Obama or Joe Biden (or John McCain).
toodles,
--AC
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Thanks, Gary! Brilliant Front Page! Takes me back to Northern Exposure...
;-)
ed
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#71 AndreainNY
Did you know that most of the oil in the world is owned by governments? ( Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela for example)
There is only a small percentage of oil owned by corporations
That ownership by governments is because oil is a critical resource for any nation's economy or its national defense. Brain washed people in the US are unaware of these facts.
These companies run by nations called NOCs....manage 90% of the world's oil. Saudi Aramco, the Saudi Arabian national oil company, has ten times the reserves of Exxon.
So since I doubt you knew these facts do you think you should not write about big business, oil or national defense since to quote you
you are "completely out of touch in these areas."
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Not that it matters, but I wonder if McCain considered
Condoleezza Rice for the VP slot. She would have
appealed to much of the same demographic as
Palin, but also added some of the black vote.
I'll bet that she was considered, but did not want
the job.
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One more thing to add to #119:
McCain's family is often deemed to be too refined/unauthentic, 'dolled up' Cindy and kids, and all. Palin has a more typical, wholesome-appearing family more 'connectable' to ordinary American families. Should be irrelevant, but isn't.
See that Vila is on the Christian-fundamentalist-radical-crazies attack yet again....
Sigh.....
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Thanks Gary #123.
Some (sad) are pushing hearsay allready, but here is a different side to change!
over hill over dale
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Ed, the 1996 date, found it!!
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gunsandrel (#137), certainly she was considered, and she was the only potential candidate for VP the Democrats were really afraid of. She is on record as wanting to get out of Washington and go back to Stanford, which is a break for the Democrats.
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Sometimes I think McCain is trying to lose..but some of the Republicans won't let him...and just keep supporting him no matter what he says or does.
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14 don't bother it will take 3 months to figure out the results:)
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ref #120
She is the govenor of a state and no has answered the major accomplishment question I put eralier on the thread about Obama
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Sarah Palin, Republican VP candidate has little experience. She's been a governor of Alaska for under two year.
Rookie Senator Obama, Presidential Candidate, has no executive experience at any level. As someone once said: he's an empty suit.
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ref110
I am not sure the exact words for PUMA, but it is the angry Hillary supporters who may still not vote for Obama
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#133, invisibleserendipity, could you please explain
why Palin does not appeal to you?
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#132. DougTexan - re-read my post at #83; it was The (London) Times which, as I noted, made the error, not myself. Perhaps you 'speed read' but in this case you read wrong.
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Anonymous,
If you copy and paste, you won't mis-spell my name.
;-)
ed
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The body language between McCain and Palin is excrutiating. They both look deeply uncomfortable.
Makes you wonder just what rows there are behind this pick - and wouldn't ANY of the experienced pols, man or woman, Governor of Senator, agree to stand as McCain's VP ?
There also seems to be a lack of hooha from GOP HQ. Have they all given up ?
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Big chips cantidate is accused of getting her brother in law sacked or demoted from the police?
is this true.
wow what change.
this is a pathetic attempt to grab a few hillary voters(won't work)
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Here it is, my choice of Palin on August 20th post, though I thought McCain wouldn't pick her.
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I doubt anyone would have guessed McCain's choice had the BBC bothered to open the GOP VP pick issue for discussion.
While some of the pluses associated with this choice are undeniable, it also suggests a change in GOP strategies. Clearly, the issue of inexperience is now irrelevant because, even though Gov. Palin is only running for VP, McCain's age make the likelihood of her becoming President a distinct probability. She is obviously going to appeal to some women, her husband's profession (commercial fisherman) will appeal to the blue collar workers that Biden is trying to capture, and the fact that they have a son who suffers from down syndrome is bound to generate sympathy.
I doubt the dismissal of a commissioner who claims he was fired because he refused to fire a trooper involved in a custody battle with the governor’s sister will have a major impact on her reputation, but the fact that she is an evangelical will definitely rally the GOP base and will influence a high Democratic turnout as well.
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old white haired guys look down on the youth it seems .
forgetting those youth have spent their WHOLE lives watching their elders.
And they probably know them better than the elders think.
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"DRILL DRILL NO PILL"
the new republican chant
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#144 magicKirin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#U.S._Senator.2C_2005.E2.80.93present
look under Legislation and also Committees
quote from wiki
"Obama held assignments on the Senate Committees for Foreign Relations, Environment and Public Works and Veterans' Affairs through December 2006.[68] In January 2007, he left the Environment and Public Works committee and took additional assignments with Health, Education, Labor and Pensions and Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.[69] He also became Chairman of the Senate's subcommittee on European Affairs.["
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Ref 138
"See that Vila is on the Christian-fundamentalist-radical-crazies attack yet again...."
I also object to the resurrection of Torquemada. The probability of an evangelical President nominating Justices to the Supreme Court may not be a major concern for you, it is for me. The last thing our country needs is more Alitos and Scalias.
Incidentally, I mentioned evangelicals - not Christian fundamentalists - although in all honesty I don't see much of a difference between the two.
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Old times
;-)
ed
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PUMA = Party Unity My [derriere]
;-)
ed
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PUMA stands for Party Unity My @$$
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84. MikeIL "McCain/Palin will win in a landslide." I think not - five children indicates no use of birth control, deliberately bringing into the world a sick, never-to-be-normal child indicates selfishness, not compassion, and the lack of any meaningful experience indicates that she would not be fit to be President of the United States. The McCain team chose boldly, but wrongly and I'd say that (despite my prediction to the contrary) this could well be the nail in the McCain campaign coffin.
\
DC now you sound like a Nazi.
"deliberately bringing into the world a sick, never-to-be-normal child indicates selfishness, not compassion,"
However if you had raised the point of how does a mother (or father) of 5 kids have the time to address them as individuals while being VP.
I would not have balked.
But then we enter the world of can surrogates replace parents and does the kid suffer?
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Ed # 58
Nice moose - but one of the credentials of the lady who you keep on going Phooowar
about is that she likes eating mooseburger. Where does that leave you (and her) ?
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#148 D_C
Apologies David, just read over the top there. I stand here, corrected, thank you.
Just so "Giddy" over this pick.
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ref #156
Bertha so has he has been on Senate commitees. What has he done?
Also I would never use Wikipedia as an accurate reference point. It's a biased source engaged in major censorship and political correctness
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Wow
McCain made a really good choice; one that I thought he'd never make considering the popularity of Romney.
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is a true Conservative with a reformist platform who can bring more energy to the McCain camp. Regardless of what the Obama camp says about Palin not having enough experience, as both a mayor and Gov. of the largest state in the Union Palin has more executive experience than Obama.
As my mother and grandmother said: "Now I have a woman I can vote for."
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You the chidren in the very capable and loving hands of "Dad"
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#157, Dominick, Torquemada got a bad rap.
PR and timing is everything.
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137:
Condie has already sold her soul to the Devil. She's looking for a little peace and quiet (Stanford) before she heads off to Hell.
At least Colin Powell had the pride and dignity to step down after he saw what evil he had become a part of.
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Just wondering if anyone knows if Sarah Palin belongs to the branch of Born Again Cretins, sorry Christians that believes in fairy stories - creationism?
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#147, Guns
Sure. Governor Palin is a wonderful choice if the GOP (and I am a card carrying member) wants to continue to bang on the drums of hardline neo-con policy. And, I wish them the best in this endeavor - but it doesn't work for me. I am not a neo-con.
The party needs a good shake-up to maybe wake-up to the present conditions in the world. It is living in the 20th century. Palin does not indicate that the party wants to wake up now, nor in the future.
Now that Palin has been chosen, I expect to start hearing more about offshore drilling. While I am not completely opposed to this - I believe that our focus should be on renewables. Although I understand we do and will continue to need oil, I am an environmentalist. Although, she will be able to speak the language of the oil companies and no doubt link them to an interesting and possibly worthwhile policy, that is not the direction that I personally want to be focused on.
Although Palin has executive experience, is it enough to armour the United States in the world economy? I would like to know how many jobs have left Alaska. (Anyone know?) Ditto in terms of foreign policy. I have grown tired of our overextension. I am not the only one who believes that we no longer have thoughtful and intelligent policies.
Don't even get me started on the Court! What has always amazed me is the focus that is placed on the executive and the legislative. The Supreme Court trumps them both. Although I am not sure where Palin stands on personal freedoms on the whole - one personal freedom she does not support is a freedom highly regarded by most American women. She is very much pro-life. Whether or not I agree with this on a personal note - the fact remains that it is still a freedom. As I was born during the time of Roe v. Wade, I have never known what life was like prior to - but - from my understanding it wasn't pretty. And, the same goes for state's rights - I must research if she ever issued her opinion on Schiavo (as an example.)
So, I suppose to sum up - McCain picking Palin has not done anything to convince me to return home - quite the opposite really.
Does that help?
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I don't believe a word from the mouth of any politician-anywhere in the world. But watching Obama last night - he made me feel proud, and he made me feel good, about myself and my adopted country.
As a general rule - republicans win by using fear to divide the electorate. Fear of other countries, fear of gays, fear of crime, fear of drugs, and as someone who lives in the south, the unspoken truth is the fear of the black man.
This fear-mongoring won it for them last time out, but if US history has taught us anything - Americans will always vote for the young optimist over the jaded, old, burnt out, typical career politician.
It happened with Kennedy and Clinton, and it will happen again. McCain seems like a nice enough guy, but he can't inspire a nation. And look at the trouble the whole world got into when they voted for Bush, 'cos he seemed like a good guy you'd want to have a beer with.
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In reply to #137, gunsandreligion:
Condi has been demonized by those afflicted with BDS. It would just feed into those who wrongly claim McCain is like Bush. If this were 1980, McCain would be a democrat, and the ultra progressive Dems (e.g. Pelosi) would be on the Socialist 3rd party ticket. Besides, Condi almost bolted once before, but was locked into another stint. She needs to go on the lecture, book writing circuit. Raise some money and maybe make her run in 2012 if she's got the traction.
I think Sarah Palin is a pretty good choice, although not many people know of her. It will be interesting to see what the feminist vote does, follow Hillary's support for Obama, or go for the ticket with a woman on it. She will be a big appeal to all the soccer moms in middle America. I mean, who wouldn't vote for the mum for President.
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MikeIl #49 previous posting
Hope you mind, but your posted quote from NObamas speech fits here as well and so I re(post). This is great, espessially the Trojan Horse part,... is he actually admitting it?
-- Barrack Obama, Aug. 29, 2008 Acceptance speech
I was looking for details in this speech. Ed don't link to NObamas site and plan page, because it states he will do all these things without more taxes,. And as we know, someone has to pay for it, he won't raise taxes, just create new ones. Just like in 1994 when we got the Medicaid tax added to the federal income and social security tax taken from our payroll.
Notice if you will, Clinton was President when that happened, he didn't raise taxes, just added a new one. NObamas "New Ideas" ring hollow, as a little thought tells "where and who" pays. Elect him and you answer the "when".
oh my
pe(ople)ace
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It now appears that the whole Palin idea was dreamt up by a 20-year old student with a website - which a few commentators fell for, then Rush Limbaugh fell for, and then John McCain fell for.
The pick only proves two things. Firstly, the power of the web and secondly the vacuity of McCain.
I don't believe that the fabled GOP machine can big this one up. Too many heavy hitters must feel slapped in the face and too many states needing a bit of tlc must be feeling excluded.
It's politics - but not as we know it.
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#170, 171 I pretty-much agree with both of you,
I would consider myself to be a moderate republican
but want to see the country go in a new direction.
It's too bad that fear-mongering and demographics
seem to be working. I guess that people like us
are in the minority.
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In reply to #170, invisibleserendipity:
What makes McCain a Neo-Con? His position on Iraq? That is pretty one dimensional thinking.
Is Democrat Rep. John Barrow a Neo-Con?
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I want to know which of the candidates will indite Bush for lying to the American people.
Will Bin Laden be captured just before the election which will guarantee a McCain victory.
America is becoming more irrelevent, the Israeli Palestine problem is actually being resolved.
Iran will continue to develope nuclear weapons and there is absolutely nothing that America and the West will be able to do about it.
North Korea has stopped dismantling its nuclear installations.
America will withdraw its combat troops but leave tens of thousands of paid mercenaries.
Oh, and the world economy is heading for a repeat of the 1930's, you ain't seen nothing yet!
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yes jack turk
"While running for Governor of Alaska, Palin supported the teaching of creationism alongside evolution in schools;[38"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
.......................
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html
'Creation science' enters the race
GOVERNOR: Palin is only candidate to suggest it should be discussed in schools.
By TOM KIZZIA
Anchorage Daily News
Published: October 27, 2006
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So what's the point of the fake Doric Columns: to remind us all but again that this is a fake candidate at a fake convention in a fake election? That's it's "political theater" as previously pointed out, and has about as much to do with real democracy as the religious right has to do with real religion. Leave it to the NYT to print a glowing account of the whole sham proceedings, probably dashed off in a flat in Brooklyn somewhere like some of their other 'eyewitness' reporting and based on handouts from the DNC. So now its off to the Twin Cities for the Duopoly Party's other twin, the Republican's to stage their convention charade, and the game will be complete. The ruling elites win again, no matter who 'wins' in November. Maybe Obama can even lend McCain his lapel flag pin and the NYTimes can use the same copy for their reporting, just change the names, the game's the same. But with all the froth and fulminations, bet on half the population staying away from the polls again come November. As the most famous Republican president once said: "You can't fool all of the people all of the time!"
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No178
Thanks Bethpa much appreciated, God save us from these idiots.
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#176
Never have I said McCain was a neo-con as I do not believe that he is. But, he is bowing down to this segment of the party.
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(TAG)
You forgot to mention that there is a new disease which makes kittens and puppies unbearably ugly. And that the Chinese are threatening to deploy a new weapon which will turn laughter into anger and anger into rage. And trust me on this. You don't want to know what rage will turn into.
:)
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Ref 167
Thanks Guns, I needed that!
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#157
There is no difference in American useage between "fundamentalist" and "evangelical", but they don't appreciate being called "fundies".
If this nominee is really a "Cretinist" and anti-choice fundie/evangelical, then Americans will have a stark choice.
To see the mentality, check DougTexan-
______________________________
The indoctrinated follower takes the whole program as a package.
Since he has not thought out and integrated any idea, he may be easily switched to a different package, so long as it is offered as a whole- e.g. Communists switching to the Nazis in Germany.
In the interim, he will quote, cut and paste from his master's words.
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#167
The mention of Torquemada may be premature, but it is pertinent.
Scalia and Alioto are harbingers of what the True-Believers will impose.
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#175
Cheers!
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Xing_Ming,
Read your own posts, "YOU" are exactly what you preach, washed, entrenced and full blown Kool-aid addict.
Sorry son, y6ou really need to re read your self
I am as you say, full blown republican/evangelical/fundi. You walk to a different drummer, and they have drummed the crap into your brains!
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Hi there - so, what are your views on the announcement that Sarah Palin, Alaska's Govenor is to be McCains VP running mate ...... as a non-american, I've had to read her profile on the bbc etc to find out who the hell she is - what do our american freinds on this blog think of her and what she can do for the McCain campaign?
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It would seem that McCain has chosen someone who could help him get elected while Obama has chosen someone who could help him govern.
Is this a correct statement?
You're all doing very well !!
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In reply to #157, DominickVila:
I don't see a problem with 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court. What is the representational demographic? Is it out of whack?
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By the way - I ought to make it clear that I'm a huge Obama fan, and I have found the US elections this time around absolutely fascinating- much better than the dull as ditchwater affairs we experience here in Blighty .... having spent the last year living in the wonderful mid west in Kansas City, I miss the US hugely - fantastic place with wonderfully friendly people .... only downside is the bitterly cold winters, but that is a very small gripe.
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136. bethpa:
It is you who just might have been brainwashed into believing Obama has any understanding of a working economic system. His "understanding" stops at aiding the poor. A wonderful but limited perspective.
Big oil is entitled to its profits. Just because one feels his cause is more noble or more worthwhile, that does not entitle him to help himself to the company's profits.
Last I checked, corporate profits were not a cookie jar into which hands could reach freely.
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#167, Xie_Ming:
"Scalia and Alioto are harbingers of what the True-Believers will impose."
You do realize that Scalia and Alito are true believers in the Constitution?
Lots of Christian bashing here.
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IN reply to #184, Xie_Ming :
This is wrong. Mormon's can be fundamentalists. The Amish can be fundamentalists. Evangelicals are a broad range of denominations that share "evangelism" in common. Some may be fundamentalist.
It's easier to hate someone when you successfully label them into one of your hate groups.
"Although, to maintain its class dictatorship, the American monopoly bourgeoisie controls a powerful ideological system that has been built up over two centuries. It has monopoly control over the theoretical institutions, which spread lies and slanders against the proletariat. It controls and misuses the educational system and has an enormous apparatus of modern mass media to use for indoctrination and manipulation."
I mean, that's what I'd say if I was a raving Marxist trying to spread my propaganda.
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Sorry for my belated question on the VP pick - read all the comments from 1 to over 100 and no-one had mentioned it - hence my first post at 188 - now realise it's been covered to oblivion round about post 175, so please ignore my superflous question in 188 - hard day at work and 3 glasses of very nice Chablis later, I ought really to pay more attention ....... sincerest apologies!
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Ref 165
"largest state in the Union"!
Remind me of how many people live in Alaska?
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Justin, I just saw you on the 10'clock news. You look like you've been out in the sun a bit too long!
Anyway, I think CNN's Jack Cafferty sums up McCain's VP choice superbly here
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/29/mccain-vp-pick-younger-less-experienced-than-obama/
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#196, Cyril, there are either 1 million lakes
and 3 million people there, or 3 million lakes
and 1 million people, I can't remember which.
#191, brigitte_kc: That's why we have
California and Florida. And, #195, you
really don't need to apologize, it just
shows that the Chablis you are drinking
must be fairly decent...
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Ref 190
I wish there was a way to keep religion out of the White House and the Supreme Court, but I am afraid that is an impossibility. In fact, Obama, who I plan to vote for, advocates expanding the Faith Based Initiative program!
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Superficially, it would seem that McCain has made a smart move in choosing a female, to pick up all those angry Hillary females.
But Hillary (well, part of her brain) has 'delivered' for Obama and maybe McCain won't benefit so much after all.
I know zero about this lady Palin but #119 added real value - thanks for the info.
In the end I think Obama will scrape home but it is just as important that the Dems also gain overall in the elections or he won't get much done.
Foreign policy in particular, requires a subtle and nuanced touch, especially as the BRIC are shaping up.
It greives me to see how badly the US and 'tag-along' UK have handled Putin/Russia.
It is totally counterproductive, a coherent EU military capability must be built up and NATO gradually wound down.
I digress a bit but I think Obama would grasp this type of strategic view better than McCain, who carries baggage of the most painful sort, which must influence his judgement.
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McCain's choice of running mate was brilliant. In choosing a woman, and a good-looking woman at that , he has upped media interest in his boring campaign. There is another advantage as well. He offsets Obama's advantage of being black (and there is an advantage there) with his running mate's being female.
Obama supporters, don't blind yourselves. The odds have changed.
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194. At 10:24pm on 29 Aug 2008, RealFrigid wrote:
IN reply to #184, Xie_Ming :
There is no difference in American useage between "fundamentalist" and "evangelical", but they don't appreciate being called "fundies".
This is wrong. Mormon's can be fundamentalists. The Amish can be fundamentalists. Evangelicals are a broad range of denominations that share "evangelism" in common. Some may be fundamentalist.
"If this nominee is really a "Cretinist" and anti-choice fundie/evangelical, then Americans will have a stark choice.
To see the mentality, check DougTexan-"
It's easier to hate someone when you successfully label them into one of your hate groups.
The indoctrinated follower takes the whole program as a package.
Since he has not thought out and integrated any idea, he may be easily switched to a different package, so long as it is offered as a whole- e.g. Communists switching to the Nazis in Germany.
In the interim, he will quote, cut and paste from his master's words.
"Although, to maintain its class dictatorship, the American monopoly bourgeoisie controls a powerful ideological system that has been built up over two centuries. It has monopoly control over the theoretical institutions, which spread lies and slanders against the proletariat. It controls and misuses the educational system and has an enormous apparatus of modern mass media to use for indoctrination and manipulation."
I mean, that's what I'd say if I was a raving Marxist trying to spread my propaganda."
Sorry what were you saying about putting people into "hate groups"?
And I would make an effort to learn a bit more about marxism before trying to parody it. Marx would never have written such prose, he was quite a stylist and would never have spoken of "theoretical instititons" what are these? How does one control a "theoretical institution"? As opposed to a real one?
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ref #197
CNN had it half right younger but more experienced. She actually made decisions in her highest govt job. Obama sat on commitees and did nothing
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In reply to #199, DominickVila:
You know, they don't cite the Bible in their opinions. I've talked to many Americans who will only vote for someone who prays.
With the drift of Hispanics northward, America is only going to become more religious.
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Hi Cyril # 196 honey
We may not have a lot of folks up here in Alaska but we sure know how to fight with each other.
That John McCain - who seemed up till now to have quarrelled with most every folk in the nation - won't know what's hit him, honey, now our gal is on board.
Alaska rules and fights with its family - OK ?
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What sort of pro-Obama/anti-McCain writer wrote the Palin profile for the BBC?
Not only does the article seem to lean toward portraying Palin as inept, but fails also to mention that she had her fifth child after seeing a pre-natal genetic test that suggested he would have Down's Syndrome in opposition to what is now the norm: to abort fetuses pre-natally diagnosed with Down's; hence a personal demonstration of her pro-life stance.
Then there are the 'Additional Links;' the first two are for the Democratic National Convention and the Barack Obama Campaign. What? Of the links provided, shouldn't the McCain Campaign one have come first? And why not just use the Wikipedia entry (in DougTexan's post above) from which the writer seems to have sourced much of his material?
And another rejoinder for the BBC to change the title of the main article so that it doesn't make McCain's decision to choose Palin any cheaper-seeming than Obama's decision to choose Biden.
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Kay Bailey Hutchison would have been a much better choice if McCain was looking for a token female. Experienced and pro-choice, she would have attracted some Hillary voters. She would have been a more plausible commander-in-chief in case something happened to McCain. Apparently McCain has only met Palin twice and made his choice at the last minute. A panic decision it would seem - find the first woman available!
Palin is a pro-life, gun loving, evangelical. She'll be popular with the conservative base, but only the die-hard Hillary voters would want to risk Roe vs Wade being overturned.
Unable to attack Obama for being too inexperienced, the Reps will now have to focus on policies and issues, something the Dems would be delighted about.
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#161. jacksforge - What's so Nazi-like about bringing about a termination when you know ahead that the foetus, if taken to full term, will be afflicted with a life of hurt, never to reach its potential as a human being? Those who approve of abortion are not "Nazis" but often compassionate mothers who would not inflict such problems on their offspring. I don't see for one moment that Mrs Palin acted compassionately for her child, one which will likely die at an early age but rather to satisfy herself.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/hed-met-her-onc.html
Actually, he's only met her once!
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It is instructive to see the the indoctrinated fundies develop themselves.
This makes the choice for American voters quite stark:
(1) Dark regression to a pretended "science"
[the world having been created some 6,000 years ago, etc.]
(2) manipulated by those with sufficient surplus cash to pay green fees on Sundays.
(3) inability to marshall facts and consequent resort ad-hominemisms.
The Inquisition would have approved of the NeoCon-fundie coalition. Guantanamo even has its equivalent of "fautorship".
_______________________
The mainspring of the fundie mentality is inculcated personal guilt. Nearly all subsequent manipulation uses this.
What they have been indoctrinated with early enough passes from being belief to assured "fact"
One test to distinguish the manipulator from the indocrinated fundie is this:
The indoctrinated follower takes the whole program as a package.
Since he has not thought out and integrated any idea, he may be easily switched to a different package, so long as it is offered as a whole- e.g. Communists switching to the Nazis in Germany.
In the interim, he will quote, cut and paste from his master's words.
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AndreainNY (193):
"Lots of Christian bashing here."
Completely agree with this statement, and would extend it to a bashing of all, even mildly, conservative stances. What happened to the 'unity' and treating-with-dignity-people-who-disagree-with-you Obama and co. were preaching about over the last few days? /s
Granted, a lot of the Americans on this website are folk who look at the BBC as some sort of venerable and 'sophisticated' European news source (really, you people are acting almost Canadian and Latin American in your europhilia) and a news source which is of much higher quality than the standard American fare--and hence europhilic right wing media conspiracy theorists (:-D) would tend to be liberal. [Note: a more sober reporting style doesn't necessarily translate into more accurate reporting.]
Still, it would be helpful if this blog exhibited a 'fuller' America, and wasn't so lopsided toward the extreme left (from an Americanocentric(?) viewpoint).
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# cyril darlin'
You still don't believe us and you're goin' on about that Mrs Hutchinson from Texas.
Texas Schmexas. You're gonna have to believe it - ALASKA RULES OK?
Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Colin Powell. Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Mrs. Hutchinson and Tim Pawlenty - forget them all.
All the time it was Alaska on his mind and he KNEW that we would bring all our 9,000 voters to his side.
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Justin it has been over 12 hours when are you going to post a Palin thread?
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Re:#207. "only met Palin twice". McCain has a temper and it will be interesting to see how Palin reacts when he lashes out at her for challenging him. Obama wanted a partner to help him govern and stressed the importance of getting along with his running mate, encouraging a challenge as necessary. It is clear Biden and he get along and genuinely like each other.
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The fundamentalist is convinced that his is the only "true" religion.
They slip very easily into thinking that their cult/denomination is really "Christian" and that others are not. Thus, they appropriate the mantle of "Christian" and deny it to others.
The fundies are usually too uninformed to know the similarities between their asserted beliefs and those of the Islamic Revivalists.
Consider, for a moment, Unitarian Universalists- are they Christians (in the eyes of a fundie?).
We may begin to look at the Ayatollah Khomeini and how he arranged the Iranian Revolution and then compare his statements with those of our fundies and the Bush administration.
Anyone interested?
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Will a Buchanan supporter like Palin appeal to the swing voters?
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#192 AndreainNY
The man (Obama) is educated in ivy league schools. I think he might have some understanding of the world's economies.
Go ahead and pay for gas at over $5 a gallon...probaly closer to $10 ...thats the future...and watch your grocery bills go up.. While the CEOs move their companies and operations to China and other nations for better profits.
How are your health benefits? Are you sure your health insurer will pay for a serious illness? What are your limits for benefits..a million dollars or two..that might last a year or two if you have an expensive disease.
Big oil is SUBSIDIZED by the American government and they are laughing all the way to the bank..as you pay them through government subsidies and through the gas in your car and you pay with every purchase you make.
And I own gas stocks ..so I am taking the ride up in profits as you pay more and think you are "smart."
But if you were aware of what was happening ..you would realize how much money you have lost since Bush was president..because the dollar has gone down in value...And I have money in foreign currencies. so I have seen an appreciation of my money compared to the American dollar.
As a capitalist I will take you for everything you have...I have no pity for foolish people like you. You will believe lies from people who will cheat you and you are not concerned about others.
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Xie_ing
I am a Unitarian and we are not considered Christians. It is sometimes difficult to work with the Christian churches in various projects because they do not consider us Christian. Although the UU religion grew out of the Protestant Churches
Conservative Christians would consider the Unitarian religion a cult.
However I consider myself a Christian ..I was raised as a Christian and I believe I have Christian values..which imo are in direct conflict with capitalism...and cause me a moral dilemma.
Capitalism and Christianity as philosophies are in conflict imo.
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215, Xie.
"We may begin to look at the Ayatollah Khomeini and how he arranged the Iranian Revolution...."
Khomeini was as likely to arrange the revolution as Martians were. Number one: Khomeini was on the British payroll for years, kept in reserve in case of need. Number two: Khomeini did not have the means to mount a revolution. The West did and the front-man patsy was Jimmy Carter.
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Choosing unqualified or controversial VP candidates is not unprecedented for the GOP, remember Dan Quayle?
I find McCain's choice truly amazing, especially when you take into consideration his age and bouts with melanoma. The dynamics of this presidential campaign would have been very different had he chosen someone like Mitt Romney, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Pawlenty or any other respected, well known, and qualified conservative. No wonder prominent Republicans like Susan Eisenhower are supporting Obama!
Quite frankly, I'll be surprised if many women decide to vote for McCain/Plain because the VP candidate is a woman. It didn't help Geraldine Ferraro a whole lot...
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#216, oldnat, this is very interesting.
But, before we could hang the label of
"far-right extremist" on her, we would
have to dig up more skeleton bones.
Where would one look for such things?
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#202
You and Sam both note the difference between ignorance and stupidity.
There is no shame in being ignorant, but the shameless do not recognize their own ignorance and display stupidity.
We have one uneducated individual who is trying to overcome his ignorance
and another, semi-eduated, who repeatedly displays stupidity.
With this VP candidate and potential President, the ignorance and mindset of the fundamentists/evangelists becomes a critical point for the future of America.
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Audacity takes on a new (almost scary) meaning. Anyone remember the tv show Beverly Hillbillies?
Could you ever imagine McCain/Palin diverting the next cold war, tussling with Putin, brokering peace deals in the Middle East, strengthening international institutions, making sound economic policies and judgments, engaging in the complex relationships with China,
America, whether you like it or not the world watches and makes judgment.
This has been political theatre at it's best and worst.
Creationism....you just could not write the script!
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I see MAII is trying to be incognito again...
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#217 #218
How many know that Halliburton moved its Headquarters and funds from Houston to the Arab Gulf?
Contrast the manipulators and the manipulated who have been conditioned to adore them!
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Important alert.
I just heard the most upsetting rumor from someone more involved in politics than I. This party said that if McCain wins he will appoint Joe Lieberman as his Secretary of State.
That is the same Joe Lieberman who has been pushing for war with Iran. We don't need another war. If any of you out there have more information, please let us know. Meanwhile I will see what else I can find out. We don't need the weasel directing our foreign affairs (or foreign wars).
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#221 gunsn'r
No idea - I came across the source by chance and was looking to get some understanding of it from you guys!
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#218
The is a strong argument that capitalism depended upon the development of Protestantism and books have been written on the subject.
The selfishness of the individual was released from communitarian obligations, etc.
In the long history of civilization, we see that the abuses of wealthy individuals are checked by rulers, things stagnate and individuals are then allowed more scope to pursue their "happiness" of money.
#217 speaks very truly, but can the indoctrinated grasp its truth?
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brigitte_kc (#188), my take on this is that it illustrates the grip that the "pro-life" and "evangelical" factions have on the Republican Party today. As the primary campaign of Huckabee demonstrated, they are a significant force. They are not strong enough to command the presidency, and not even strong enough to command the Republican nomination, but they are certainly strong enough to influence the outcome of a close election.
McCain's strongest running mate would have been Condi Rice, without question (in my opinion). She is "pro-choice" but strong enough otherwise that McCain might have done well anyway. But she was not available. With any weaker running mate, he must hang on to this faction. Palin is a lightweight, but she has impeccable "pro-life" credentials. She is so firmly opposed to abortion for any reason (and apparently also to contraception) that she delivered a Downs Syndrome baby (her fifth) when most of these by far are identified early in pregnancy and aborted. So all the strict Catholics and "pro-lifers" will support this ticket. They would never have voted for Obama anyway, but they might have not bothered to vote. The downside is that Palen's position is appalling to many people of both sexes who will see this as another reason to vote for Obama. Imagine Palen succeeding to the presidency and appointing Supreme Court justices who overturn Roe V. Wade. What can McCain do? This is inherently a polarizing issue.
There are people on both sides of this issue who say that this selection either clinches it for McCain or dooms him. Half of them are wrong, and the other half will say "I told you so." I think both sides are just making wild guesses. I won't call it, but I think it is a remarkably weak choice which the Democrats will be happy with.
All of the foregoing is just my amateur opinion as an American and long-time watcher of American politics.
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Xie_Ming
The internet rumor is that Cheney will live in Dubai when he leaves the White House.
He will have trouble with groups trying to bring him to trial for crimes against humanity if he travels to some nations.
What a mess...
Palin has no foreign policy experience and has said she has not even thought about Iraq...meanwhile her son is scheduled for a tour of duty in Iraq this next month.
What kind of mother doesn't look into a war that her son is being sent to fight?
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If anyone is interested, we can follow the Iranian Revolution from its genesis in British/USA intervention in 1953.
One intesting aspect is the similarity between the Islamic principles stated by Kohmeini and the priciples asserted by fundamentalist/evangelicals in the USA.
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AndreainNY (#193), it depends on the issue. In the 200 Bush v. Gore decision (or was it in which the Supreme Court chose to intervene in the election procedures of the State of Florida, the strict constructionists were Breyer, Stevens, Ginsburg and Souter, the reverse of the usual disposition.
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bethpa (#218), by whom? My first wedding service was performed by a Unitarian minister. He told us Unitarians were Christians and I consider them Christians. The only people who don't are either ignorant or so doctrinairre in their particular brand of Chrisitianity that they think they are empowered to decide who qualifies.
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Further to #226.
This same party also said that McCain really wanted Lieberman as his running mate, but that he might hinder him winning the election. Well that is certainly true.
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#233
Exactly!
The fundamentalist is convinced that his is the only "true" religion.
They slip very easily into thinking that their cult/denomination is really "Christian" and that others are not. Thus, they appropriate the mantle of "Christian" and deny it to others.
There are many fundi/evangelicals who do not consider Roman Catholics to be "Christians".
(I also know one minister who says the priesthood aren't , but some of the laity may be).
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Gunsn'r
Does this seem appropriate? Palin as Pat Buchanan's Alaska state director in 1996
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Gary_A_Hill
"Although Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions, such as Sunday worship with a sermon and the singing of hymns, they do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians nor do they necessarily subscribe to Christian beliefs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
This also might interest you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Christian_Association
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In reply to #225, Xie_Ming:
"How many know that Halliburton moved its Headquarters and funds from Houston to the Arab Gulf?"
I didn't know 1401 McKinney, Houston TX was in the Arab Gulf. You must have your Gulf's confused.
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217. bethpa:
Relax. I don't need protection. I'm perfectly capable of caring for myself, which certainly separates me from many Americans in Obama's eyes. Perhaps it even makes me suspect.
Obama's Ivy League education does not qualify him to make any decisions on economics. It qualifies him, it seems, to pontificate on abstract constructs untested in the real world. Think "academic" and all that label entails.
I believe health care needs fixing. I just don't believe socialized medicine is the answer.
Obama's an amazing speaker, but that is his one great accomplishment. Other than that, he seems to want credit for graduating college, getting married and raising a family. Last I checked, there were millions of Americans who were doing those things and wouldn't dream of calling those actions extraordinary.
He's never published anything that didn't pay him royalties. Ivy League, indeed.
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In reply to #235, Xie_Ming:
Pouncing on the Christians now? You aren't one right? Nice that you slipped in "cult" to described them. Why is it that anyone should trust your knowledge on the subject? Oh, that's right you know one minister. Do you have any facts to back up your declarations?
Exchange the labels with some other group, and your posts begin to sound like bigotry.
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TAG, Namaste ()
Evidence?Background
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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Xie_Ming: You spend a lot of time accusing people of being brainwashed. Have you noticed your obsession with this idea?
The worst that can be said of Americans is that they're subjected to heavy marketing. Not sure that falls under the category of "brainwashing." (Though I wish I had a dollar for every person on this website who has accused me of being "brainwashed" because I hold a viewpoint different from theirs.)
I've been accused of being brainwashed by Bush (fear mongerer), Rove (diabolically evil), and now big oil. This says more about people's inability to deal with a 180 degree opinion difference, I believe.
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In reply to #202, Simon21:
"Sorry what were you saying about putting people into "hate groups"?
And I would make an effort to learn a bit more about Marxism before trying to parody it. Marx would never have written such prose, he was quite a stylist and would never have spoken of "theoretical institution's" what are these? How does one control a "theoretical institution"? As opposed to a real one?"
That's funny Simon! For that quote, I actually went out to an archive of East German propaganda to excerpt a sample to compare to some of the postings here. It seem familiar, no? At least we aren't talking anymore about ideological state apparatuses. I mean Althusser is just too much of a giveaway. Even these bourgeoisie capitalists would catch on to the plan.
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Wall Street reacts to Palin
Whipsaw?
and
When John met Sarah
and
Evangelical response
and
Conservatives cheer
Salaam, etc
ed
(listenin' to Willie Nelson....) ;-)
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It's official policy, then?
Not an encouraging sign
God Bless
ed
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bethpa (#237), I would rely on the statements of the Unitarian Universalist leadership themselves, rather than anything found on Wikipedia.
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#161 jacksforge - and others who would deny women the right to choose whether they should terminate a pregnancy or not, consider this dreadful case in the USA. Wouldn't it have been better to have taken action long before the child was born?
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Halliburton decided to move its HQ and funds from Houston to the Arab Gulf.
Cheney is also now linked to the phony "attack" of an Iranian rubber boat against US warships (another phony pretext for aggression).
_____________________________
It is time for the civilized to understand the extent (and portent) of the evangelicals on US development:
(1) The World was created some 6,000 years ago.
(2) Makind is in constant struggle with the Devil (as the Hebrews brought back from Babylon). The Devil is everywhere.
(3) All, including babes, are inbued with Original Sin (which can never be extinguished, but can be mollified by a) tithing, b) public confession c) being born again e) attacking the targets suggested by the minister.
(4) We are living close to End Times, which will be realized by Armageddon in the Near East, and the faithful will be swept up bare in the Rapture to sit in the clouds at the right hand of the Lord and watch the unsaved write in agony below.
[All those who do not agree are obviously to be excoriated as instruments of the Devil]
When facts or reason fail, attack the person!
The evangelicals are, as the NeoCons realize, easily manipulated, especially in the interests of Israel.
With the designation of an evangelical as a VP candidate, the issue ought to be polarizing.
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Okay,..... my wife and I, finished a bottle of wine, cheap california crap called 'Twin Fin', and I had to share this.
You see, as an accountant, everything equals something else in my wife thinking.
She works for a company that is owned by"the gay (liberal) thinking half" of America.
When She (wifes name not permitted) told me that Nobama was attacking the righrt for picking a woman,... she sent me to Ted Nuggent
Peace out
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#242
Indeed, that is a very special interest of mine.
"Brainwashing" is simply a term that the less educated will better recognize.
"Political discourse", "political religion",
dominant ideology, "ideological state apparatus" are also terms that are used.
"Fellow traveler", "pinko" and "commie" will soon be trotted out by the usual ilk.
In fact, what we see here displayed is not "brainwashing" but the result of existence within an advertising-dominated media, controlled by special interest groups.
The evangelicals are special, in that their conditioning (usually from childhood) has given them a particular indoctrination wherein belief has become, for them, reality.
It is rather disquieting to think of such a person able to press a "war" button.
Between 5%-7% of those who claim to be evangelicals are manipulators seeking to dominate others either for personal power or money, or both.
The typical fundie is an obedient authoritarian.
[It it interests you, I can provide some references}
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In reply to #248, Xie_Ming:
Very Nice! You worked in Haliburton, Cheney, Iran, Neo-cons, Evangelicals, Israel, and Fundamentalism.
Which ones are indoctrinated? Or, are you indoctrinating us?
How can anyone take you seriously, when you just spout such bigoted bile?
When you say "The evangelicals are..." or simplistically excoriate a belief system you do not share you expose yourself as a bigot.
It's not an attack on the person, it's the definition; "a person who is intolerant, esp. regarding religion, politics, or race"
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Since it portends to be a polarizing issue in the campaign, we should start to examine fundamentalism:
Fundamentalisms are found on all continents. As the 21st Century began, Hindu, Israeli, American, Hindu and Islamic fundamentalisms became disturbingly evident.
In each, the mass of adherents sought refuge from the insecurities of the rapidly changing social and economic conditions that surrounded them.
Whereas “revivalists” want to restore the faith among the believers, the “fundamentalists” want everybody to conform to their beliefs, both in religious and in political matters.
Often, the times are thought to require direct and possibly violent action.
Fundamentalists need a basic scripture or set of rules, be it the Torah, Bible, Koran, Communist Manifesto, Little Red Book, or Fuhrer’s orders.
Leading individuals and inner-groups controlling fundamentalist worship add additional motives-nationalist, political, racist, organizational and personal. An authoritarian, intolerant, and dogmatic attitude is usual among adherents. The action programs, however, differ, depending on the motives of the leadership.
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In reply to #242, AndreainNY:
"Xie_Ming: You spend a lot of time accusing people of being brainwashed. Have you noticed your obsession with this idea?"
In XM's world, we are all indoctrinated, weak minded sheep trapped in the ruts of our "ideological state apparatus". We lack the imagination, or creativity to see the world as clearly as his superior intellect does, and to break free from their bonds of selfish narcissistic greed.
And, well, since you used the term "Brainwashing", we know where he puts you in the intellectual spectrum.
Althusser says, "What the bourgeoisie has installed as its number-one, i.e. as its dominant ideological State apparatus, is the educational apparatus, which has in fact replaced in its functions the previously dominant ideological State apparatus, the Church."
So you can see why XM is so down on religions.
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Continuity in the goals of action programs is always claimed. But with skillful manipulation by the leadership group, the goals may even reverse without the followers being aware of it.
Constants include: subordination of women and elimination of reproductive choice; hostility to homosexuals and to freedom of expression.
American fundamentalists, historically, hated bankers and were leftists. Today, they have been conditioned to articulate a mixed set of goals: to associate patriotism with religion; to oppose disarmament and to favor militarism, international aggression and hegemony; to oppose world government and international organizations;
to favor “free enterprise” and to oppose “socialism”; to favor the dissolution of public schools, etc.
Clever (and profit-oriented) leadership has reversed the political understanding and goals of the evangelical/fundamentalist community.
The techniques of manipulation are becoming so sophisticated that ordinary folk believe that such programs are sanctioned by the Bible and are really what the individual himself desires.
[And to all a Good Night!]
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bethpa (#237), I find it interesting that the Unitarian Universalist website does not seem to emphasize its origin as as a Christian sect:
http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml
The essential point of differentiation when Unitarianism was founded was the rejection of the doctrine of the trinity, not Christianity itself.
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Xie_Ming
Sometimes if you ask people to explain something which is outside of their knowledge they begin to realize they didn't know as much as they thought they did.
Some Americans know very little about other nations, their histories and their governments and how they work. They will resort to key phrases like "socialized medicine"...without ever having experienced medical care outside of America.
They talk to one another and confirm each other's opinion.
I really don't know the solution but the right wing imo is destroying America....and maybe it will have to get worse for a change to occur. Its crazy that McCain has so much support and he might win...
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Gary
"Unitarian Universalists can be Christian, Humanist, Pagan, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist, and more. A portion of Unitarian Universalists today identify as Christians, but even some Unitarian Universalists who do not identify primarily as Christians find inspiration in Christian ideas. Because of the freedom within our faith, there are many differing views regarding the role of Christianity in our religious community."
http://www.uua.org/visitors/beliefswithin/6633.shtml
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Palin's husband is a union Steelworker. The guy actually get his hands dirty for crying out loud.
Palin led a grass-roots campaign to depose a corrupt GOP incumbents in the primary who were too chummy with the oil companies. Then she beat a former Dem. Gov. of the state.
-- and the Libs just don't understand how stupid they look trying to paint the Palin's as "four more years of Cheney."
--or how stupid they look saying she is not experienced enough given their choice for president. Obama won his first local election five years after Palin won her first.
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I think if Americans were indoctrinated by heavy advertising they'd be popping male enhancement pills like popcorn, slamming a Nutri-systems shake, and wiping their mouths off with a ShamWOW.
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Gary ..this might make it clearer still
http://www.uua.org/visitors/beliefswithin/index.shtml
Its a humanist religion...and people come to it from many different faiths. We get people who were nuns and priests and can no longer believe in the Catholic Church but want to join a religious congregation. Also we have families with parents who have different religions and want the children to have some religious education.
But it is the pagans that seem to set off the traditional Christians..particularly the fundamentalist Christians who sometimes think of paganism as witchcraft and in league with the devil.
If you enjoy discussing many points of view a UU church can be interesting. We even have some conservatives...poor souls : ) They can feel oppressed by the general liberal atmosphere...
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Nutting Hill Hamburger#59
Interesting you'd bring up McCarthy. That is the infamous Senator Joseph McCarthy. In a recent documentary putting together lots of facts which didn't come to light until long after the McCarthy era was over and he was dead and burried including information released by the KGB after the fall of Communism, it came to light that much of the sum and substance of McCarthy's claims about Communists infiltrating the US government and critical industries was correct. Of course this means nothing to Europeans who champion communism and will do or say anything to discredit the US nor to the American left who uses McCarthyism as a mantra whenever traitors are exposed using more than ordinary methods. It's expected.
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#258. MikeIL: "Palin's husband is a union Steelworker. The guy actually get his hands dirty for crying out loud." No longer - he's a "commercial fisherman". It doesn't matter though, he's never going to see the inside of "Admiral's House" at 34th Street and Massachusetts Avenue, Washington DC.
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251, Real.
It seems to me that Xie is nothing more than a compilation of extremist literature, catch phrases and propaganda. She reads like a manifesto. Is there a real person inside?
She reminds me of the zealots of the 50's who all had identical ideas expressed in identical language. It was like talking to robots. Maybe that is the clue. Xie has been programmed.
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The popularity of Barack Obama, and the realization that it will take someone like Sarah Palin to offer a credible challenge to him is strong evidence that the dumbing down of the world includes America along with everyone else. It's the triumph of packaging over substance. It's a realization that fantasies invented in Hollywood and in internet games have triumphed over judgement based on the substance of experience and knowledge. It is the acceding to the irrational notion that somehow a slick intelligent lawyer who has never done anything pertient is qualified to be President of the United States. The Democrats won't be able to use Palin's lack of experience as an argument nor will they be able to use pandering to the woman's vote. Not when their presidential candidate will get nearly every African American vote simply because he is African American. If that's not racism, I don't know what is. So the Republicans counter appeals to racism with appeals to sexism. Two years as governor. Now there's a resume to build confidence.
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I will admit that I'm more ignorant than not when it comes to politics, and have never wanted to claim stake in either the Democratic or Republican Party. (It should come down to whoever is best for the job.)
That being said, I believe Obama is our best bet for President. As he stated in his speech, it's not that McCain doesn't care, it that he just doesn't get it.
Obama also pointed out that Government shouldn't be expected to have all of the answers to our everyday problems (yes, I'm paraphrasing here), but they should be there when we need them.
And regardless of whether or not you can blame our current economic situation directly on "Bush's" government, it certainly hasn't helped. I would have much rather seen the big $$$ funding the Iraq war fund Medicaid/Medicare and Social Security instead. Oh, and I didn't need either of the two "stimulus" checks - see above reference to Soc. Security and Medicaid.
The middle class is disappearing, our housing market is falling apart, health care is becoming more for the rich with limited options for the poor/middle class, and now conservatives want to take over the supreme court. I hate to see what they would do to abortion rights.
Let's not even delve to deeply into religion or rights for gay people. How would you like to be told you can't visit your loved one in the hospital or claim their social security benefits once they have passed away? Even if you spent the last 30 years devoted solely to that one person?
We don't want hand-outs - we want a government that cares.
Again, it's not that McCain doesn't care - he just doesn't get it.
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Americans have been encouraged to go into debt by the ads..and the consumerism
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/15/business/15sell.php
"You've put a lot of work into your home. Isn't it time for your home to return the favor?"
"Make Dreams Happen"
"Need Cash? Use Your Home."
"Seize your someday,"
"banks now enable homeowners to keep borrowing. In fact, they encourage it. Little by little, millions of Americans surrendered equity in their homes in recent years as home prices seemed to rise inexorably from one peak to the next."
Still, Elizabeth Warren, a professor at Harvard Law School who has studied consumer debt and bankruptcy, said that financial companies used advertising to foster the idea that it is good, even smart, to borrow money."
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264, staphylococcus aureus.
What is unfortunate about McCain's choice is the possibility that, if elected, he will not live out his term, or, if he does survive, is not likely to run for a second.
That being said, his choice of running mate will give him more media coverage, and will brighten his lack-luster campaign and his geezer image
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#259
I guess then that adverts for McD, Bugger King, Pizza Hut, KFC etc etc have no effect on the diet and health of the population. Everyone eats fresh healthy food and is a slim/athletic build...
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In defense of the Emperor Ming I'd like to say.....hmmm, suddenly for the first time in my life I can't think of anything to say, I'm at a complete loss for words.
So Xie, what's your business plan? If we can't sucker people with fundimentalism of one sort or another, how do we get them to part with their money....with the least effort for a given return on our part of course?
If you were truely Chinese as your moniker pretends, you would have at least some sensitivity to a five thousand year old culture of mercantilism. Or is that a brainwashing myth too?
mable-make-the-beds, I am amazed at your outspoken attitude towards The Emperor Ming. Has he crossed the line by dissing fundimental Islam as seen through the eyes of the Ayatollahs?
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265, vitaminz
"We want a government that cares." You are kidding me, right? Government is made of up politicians. The aim of politicians is to get elected. But to get elected tey have to give something we want. I will settle for that.
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#236, oldnat, this is all coming out in little pieces.
It's really hard for me to see if Palin is really a
Buchanan "follower," or if there is just some
overlap of their views.
If I find anything out, I'll post it.
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266, bethpa.
Have you ever heard of personal responsibility? When are we going to stop blaming other people for our incompetence and greed?
Even in this mortgage crisis, two parties were involved. The banks who wanted more business and the home buyers who wanted more than they could afford.
Advertisers appeal to narcissism and greed. It is up to a person to have the character to resist. But, sure, put the onus on the advertisers. It's easier than looking in the mirror.
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#272. allmymarbles "Even in this mortgage crisis, two parties were involved. The banks who wanted more business and the home buyers who wanted more than they could afford."
But the banks are mostly at fault, because they should have known that borrowers could not afford to buy the properties now being repossessed in the tens of thousands. Banks stood to lose very little, since they sold the mortgages to Fanny May and Freddie Mac, and they were home and dry for the most part. Unscrupulous banking representatives assured borrowers that it was all sound and above board, "creative financing" abounded, and eventually the house of cards collapsed. The blame should be put on the greed of big business rather than the hopes and aspirations of young people who thought they were getting a break.
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"Still, Elizabeth Warren, a professor at Harvard Law School who has studied consumer debt and bankruptcy, said that financial companies used advertising to foster the idea that it is good, even smart, to borrow money.""
Depending on circumstances it often is. Especially in the purchase of a home. Owning your own home is not only the American dream, it is for most Americans the best investment they will make in their lives except for a college education. This is within reasonable limits taking into consideration one's personal financial situation. The guidelines are clear, you should not borrow more than 2 1/2 times your annual income in a mortgage, pay out more than 25% of your monthly income for housing. You should accumulate at least 6 months of total living expenses in cash equivalent assets in case of emergency.
Investing in a house in the US is a good idea for most people because the interest on mortgages and real estate taxes are a deduction from your income on your federal income tax return. It is an excellent way to shelter income. Inflation reduces the value of the debt in absolute terms over time. Demographics in some areas dictate that the relative value of housing there must escalate with time. Recent detailed studies by the census bureau projects that the population will rise from about 304 million to 430 million in 2050, about a 3 1/2 million per year rise on average. They will all need some place to live. Like all long term investments, buying a house should be carefully studied before jumping into one. The recent speculative bubble shows the risks when this illiquid asset is treated like a short term liquid one. For borrowers and lenders alike, it can be a disaster, especially when neither have followed prudent principles of handling money.
Borrowing money for a college education is also a very good idea. Many programs offer very generous terms.
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Canard #273, you know as little about economics and finance as anything else. Why don't you go to a web site where you can look at charts of stock prices over time and see what happened to the stocks of many large banks and other lending institutions? Many of them are in big trouble. Why do you think we have a banking crisis? I'm not going to explain it to you. Try to find out for yourself how this all really happened.
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or just move to Scotland and go to University for free! Maybe share a flat with Nat.
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273, David.
Greed is found at all levels, from big corporations, to the little man. All should be responsible for their actions and ignorance is not excuse.
The undermine character by making excuses for foolish behavior.
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The way the blog has moved on to the McCain VP pick must indicate that interest has now moved from the dems to the reps - or at least that McCains choice has sparked some excitement.
Palin ?
"I didn't expect the governor of Alaska ?"
"No-one expects the governor of Alaska?"
You're all doing very well !!
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In reply to #268, kecsmar:
#259
I guess then that adverts for McD, Bugger King, Pizza Hut, KFC etc etc have no effect on the diet and health of the population. Everyone eats fresh healthy food and is a slim/athletic build...
----
It has less to do with advertising, and more to do with convenience and the secret sauce.
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#182
Yes I had actually forgotten about the ugly syndrome now being developed. Very remiss of me.
Actually down here in the westcountry we have been clouded over for days now. I think that it is as a direct consequence of all those fireworks the Chinese let off. They have actually perfected a cloud making machine to cause depression amongst us in the liberal west.
Furthermore, it now a well known fact that the Americans have been going down the same route and they are experimenting to turn Earth into a miniature Venus. The experiment is similar to the one where the mad crazy scientists have decided that they are going to recreate the original big bang, because they can.
So, when we actually finally destroy the planet we will actually have somebody to blame. Ourselves.
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In reply to #263, allmymarbles:
The single minded focus on certain themes makes me suspicious of a larger agenda, and it is maybe not a personal one.
She is too smart to to be so broadly inaccurate, which means she must be trying to warp opinion. But why?
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#29
Note that this still referred to moderators yet I have yet to receive an explanation as to why?
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In reply to #280, T A Griffin (TAG):
Don't worry. When the ice caps melt the excess fresh water will shut down the gulf stream, meaning Europe will freeze it's butt off for a few years. But, things should be fine in the USA, until the next 'little ice age' refreezes the poles.
The funny thing climatologists never talk about is the rate at which moisture dissolves CO2 from the atmosphere. The hotter things get, the more water vapor gets into the atmosphere, the more energy gets injected, and voila! More rain. Less CO2.
Check out some of the science from http://www.snowballearth.org/
The snowball earth theory suggests that during the frozen period of zero precipitation on Earth, volcanoes continued to pump CO2 into the atmosphere to a point where it was up to 10% of the atmosphere. Upon thawing, the earth's weather systems were able to absorb the excess CO2 very quickly and it appears in thick deposits of equimolar calcium-magnesium carbonate in rock strata.
It is evident then that the atmosphere has a natural way of scrubbing CO2, which is exponential depending on various factors including the CO2 levels in the atmosphere, solar radiation, and the amount of water vapor moving through weather systems.
We've been pumping CO2 into the atmosphere during the entire industrial revolution, so now we have no choice but to see what effect it has on the climate. I'm the optimist, so I think warmer with more rainfall will be better and open up more arable land for farming (Canada, Siberia)
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To Xie_Ming [I hope you had a nice sleep and...]
Are we not all believers of one kind or another ?
The modern religion seems to be "Science". Its priests are everywhere. Their "research" is in many cases lavishly paid for by those for whom their "results" are invariably favourable.
During the Nazi era in Germany, there were many scientists who could "prove" the inferiority of certain races. They were following the fad of eugenics.
Now there is quantum physics. I should add that I do not compare it with eugenics but suddenly, it has gone dark. The Universe is, it appears, 85% dark matter because we cannot explain why it has the gravitational effects it does.
A key fact about dark matter is that it is so far impossible to detect, but it is there. A priest told me it is.
Sarah Palin apparently does not believe Creationsim should be on school curricula. If you follow the link thoughtfully provided by bethpa (I think):
I agree with that and I do not think it is particularly controversial.
Nor, apparently, is she a supporter, past or present, of Pat Buchanan. At least she does not think she should be whatever her original position was:
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To Xie_Ming [anyone else, this is long and boring]
I am afraid I might have a view on evolution that you would not like as well. Interestingly, it dovetails with your views about brainwashing.
I believe physical evolution in the manner described by Darwin has ended. The reason for that is the loss of the "random" element in natural selection.
I am no expert but I believe randomness is important to natural selection. Without it, the gene pool narrows dangerously and whatever the species, it faces extinction. It is why Hitler and others who believe in ethnic superiority and selective breeding are condemning that race to species death.
The human race has for milllennia been working to eliminate this random element. It started with Arranged Marriage. It has moved on rapidly through contraception and genetic engineering. Prosthetics will also play a part in adding featires which Nature cannot.
I do not believe this is natural selection as Darwin saw it. This is, in fact, Intelligent Design but by humans. The current wave of priests is sacrificing stem cells on the altar of a better humanity.
Personally, I have no problem with it. We are just confused by the physical. Witness the responses to Sarah Palin, part bimbo accusations (from women), part youth and beauty meets grumpy ole man.
I believe the next stage of evolution is the evolution of ideas... and lo, here we are.
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To bethpa:
I am British. Were I an American, I would vote McCain.
I am a believer in the NHS in Britain. In MarcusAureliusII terms, that means that if some goodfornothing who hasn't the brains to plan for his own future wellbeing cuts his own leg off out of sheer stupidity, I will happily pay for his hospital treatment.
I believe the USA will have some form of socialised medicine sometime in the future but probably piece by piece. I do not know how it will grow, maybe by state or small institutions or something. It has to lose its ideological image before it can move on and that demands personal experience.
I think of myself as libertarian but that probably means different things in different places. I am very much a supporter of the war in Iraq, as I have said elsewhere, I believe it saved many people's lives and that the WMD and other reasons for it were sound.
I do not believe that George W Bush is stupid or ill-intentioned. Nor do I believe that of Tony Blair.
I have problems with Obama. I find it inconceivable that he really thinks that he can fund a healthcare program such as he describes and still produce the tax cuts which seem to be the front page of his manifesto. That makes him disingenuous.
Of course all politicians get up to these tricks. McCain has made all kinds of gestures to the Republican right which he would have spat out rather than mouth a year ago. Still, I have less of a problem with that.
I particularly like your post #217. I believe it illustrates a Thatcherite view of the world - apologies if that wounds.
The only problem I have is that should start “…as a human being”
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David C
It seems you are not a parent!!
You may also not know much about Downs Syndrome?
bless you
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The POWER of the internet! :
Well, well, well!
;-)
ed
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I certainly hope the opinions expressed by fellow Democrats on this blog regarding our position on McCain's VP choice do not represent our strategy for November.
In my opinion, Gov. Sarah Palin is a formidable opponent, not so much because her inexperience matches that of Obama, but because like Obama she represents what is best in America.
Palin is a success story, a middle class woman with an average public school education, a husband that was a union member and is now a commercial fisherman, and a child with Downs Syndrome who has risen to prominence thanks for her hard work and actions. The fact that she comes from a sparsely populated state and was the Mayor of a small town is hardly a detriment, don't forget the appeal that the man from Hope had on us. Anyone that thinks her story is not going to appeal to mainstream America is deluding themselves.
Her experiences with hardship are not based on yesteryear, but on what she is enduring today, and her spiritual convictions are bound to be much more appealing for the average Joe than those of her opponents.
I plan to vote for Obama because I prefer his proposals to solve our international and domestic problems better than McCain's, and because I am inspired by his discourse and message of hope; but I would not be too terribly upset if McCain/Palin are elected. I think that behind the veneer of conservatism that McCain is so desperately trying to project, he remains a very moderate politicians willing to compromise with his opponents on domestic issues. His biggest liabilities are his age, health, temper and his views of the world.
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allmymarbles,
We are in agreement about personal responsibility in the face of greed. This is our system, for better or worse. Demonizing companies for pursuing profits lawfully is silly given our economic system.
Encouraging personal responsibility is also a sound approach.
The democrats walk a fine line between victimizing and helping their constituents. They certainly have it right when it comes to helping those who can't help themselves.
A good example is welfare reform. After a few years, the welfare recipients who were already working off the books or who were capable of working but weren't had to get jobs. What was left were the hard-core unemployable. Those people certainly deserve help.
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288. Ed:
If you believe McCain selected Palin because of the recommendation of a 21-year-old college student, you need to find yourself a new set of links.
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chill0
This might interest you and could be the future for US health care.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/opinion/30sat1.html
Editorial
The Massachusetts Way
Published: August 30, 2008
"The pioneering Massachusetts program to provide health insurance for all citizens looks more and more successful with each passing month."
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#272 allmymarbles
"When are we going to stop blaming other people for our incompetence and greed?"
(allmymarbles quote)
Unfortunately I do blame Americans...(and I am not in debt..thanks to my cautious husband ... but I have the American affliction of spending too much)
I do not think America has a good culture.
America has an emotionally shallow culture. I am in Canada trying to establish a place for my family to move to..thats how strongly I feel about this. But I feel guilty about leaving a nation that has given me so much..I don't think there is much I can do to stop what I believe is inevitable..because Americans are too self absorbed and emotionally shallow and willing to blame others without accepting blame and they are resistant to learning new solutions...
The banks were at fault for not using strict guidelines for loans, people were at fault for not being realistic in their debt burdens and the government was at fault for not regulating the banks...
I could even probably blame the churches which are not offering spiritual guidance emphasizing the emotional shallowness of consumerism..well the news media too : ) because it did not warn people to avoid too much debt ( I'm sure there must be some other group I could blame too)
Seriously..its the whole American culture that is built on having things...People need to build up relationships and experiences and knowledge..rather than collecting things..like houses and cars and electronics...etc
( And I also have been impressed by the jesuits..referring to another post by you)
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#65 Chancythegardener
I think you are right. MarcusAurelius is a BBC plant to keep things rolling and to foster anti-US feeling. The BBC intellignetsia are always talking about fine wines. Hmmmm.
Or he is working for the Russians to foster the same aim. I ask in all sincerity - has he ever worn a fur hat, eaten beetroot or driven a Lada? Or any two of those three. If you have not seen him do any of the above it does not mean that he has not. I rest my case.
Colour me suspicious.
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#274 marcus
"Investing in a house in the US is a good idea for most people because the interest on mortgages and real estate taxes are a deduction from your income on your federal income tax return. It is an excellent way to shelter income."
(marcus quote)
Exactly right marcus..and that tax deduction encourages people to take out mortgages even when they do not need a mortgage and that interest on the mortgage is actually a subsidy now for banks. The money that would have been going to the federal government as taxes is now going to the banks as interest on loans.( In canada there is no tax deduction for interest on mortgages.)
While many Americans see the mortgage interests rate deduction as a way to encourage house ownership I see it as a way to funnel money ( which would have been taxed and used by the government ) to the banks
"Recent detailed studies by the census bureau projects that the population will rise from about 304 million to 430 million in 2050, about a 3 1/2 million per year rise on average."
And what if the climate in large areas of the US is too hot for people to easily live there? Or there isn't the water to live there? The problem with projections is that they can not take into account unknowns..and global warming is a big unknown
It is possible that people will be clustered in cities and live in apartments and houses will be unaffordable for many
( oh my God Marcus..I've just described ...sigh...EUROPE !!!! aaaaaa )
: )
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Is there a subliminal message in McCain's choice? Is he saying "Sarah Palin is in her mid 40's, she has only a few years of experience and that experience is in an executive role as state governor not as a senetor. I think that level of experience qualifies someone to take on the apprenticeship role of VP. It is not enough to be CnC on day one." ? Is the choice calculated to re-inforce in voters minds the thought that Obama is not yet ready?
You're all doing very well !!
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imo Marcus is a real person.
He comes from the Bronx, is Jewish and possibly lost relatives in the holocaust. And he has not forgiven Europe for not standing up to the Nazis and protecting the innocent people who died during WWII in concentration camps.
He sees America as a nation that does protect people with its strong military and freed people from the concentration camps.
Now he believes because of his views about WWII, that a strong military and aggressive action is the best way to protect against terrorism or nations that are aggressive.
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bethpa,
No argument with the problems in American culture, but moving to Canada to avoid them?
You might be unpleasantly surprised to find that the grass isn't greener on the other side. Though if you really can't stand the US, it's probably easier to move.
We are all surrounded by values we don't share, which just increases the pressure on us to instill in our own families the basic values we consider crucial.
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Ref 289. Yes, Dominck you make some good points and the Dems must be very careful how they attack Palin.
But the question everyone will be asking is:
If Palin was a man, would she have been chosen?
We were led to believe that both Pawlenty and Jindal were too inexperienced and should be considered in 4 years time. So the logic behind Pailn's selection is purely to attract the female vote. It's so obviously plain for all to see. It didn't work for the Dems when they chose Geraldine Ferraro in 84.
You can't compare Obama's inexperience with Palin's. Over the past 2 years, Obama has been a leading player on the national stage. He's been through the most gruelling primary process in history, winning more than 18 million votes. His views on all the issues have been clearly laid out in the speeches, debates and books. He's travelled the world several times, visited the troops and generals on the battlefield and has been welcomed by all the major world leaders. Yet still, many voters say they don't know enough about him.
Sarah Palin has to do all that in 2 months, as well as look after her young children, including one who needs extra special care and attention.
McCain's age and health issues mean that she has to be ready to take over in case. There can be no "on the job training". Will the voters be willing to risk a complete unknown to be within a heartbeat of that red phone?
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297. At 1:45pm on 30 Aug 2008, bethpa wrote:
imo Marcus is a real person.
He comes from the Bronx, is Jewish and possibly lost relatives in the holocaust. And he has not forgiven Europe for not standing up to the Nazis and protecting the innocent people who died during WWII in concentration camps."
Really, so the UK did not fight the nazis in WWII? The Russians did not resist the nazis?
Who liberated Auschwitz?Europeans
Marchus puerile rage about Europe is generated by old fashioned ignorance and bigotry.
"He sees America as a nation that does protect people with its strong military and freed people from the concentration camps."
fascinating but the US did not exactly open itself to mass jewish immigration before WWII did it? And the US itself did not enter the war until 1941.
"Now he believes because of his views about WWII, that a strong military and aggressive action is the best way to protect against terrorism or nations that are aggressive."
Well Hiteler and Stalin felt the same way.
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If I were part of the BBC's North America team I 'd be cringing with embarrassment at being so openly partisan towards Obama. But then ,I guess the likes of Philippa Thomas and Justin Webb are made of far sterner stuff .
Just wondering : what if Obama does get elected and begins to trot out error after error and misstep after misstep . Will they go their merry way as ever . Blithely sweeping it all under the carpet . And continuing to sing Hosannas to Him.
Have to hand it to the Obama Dems though. Only they could have pulled off the Doric Column - Parthenon shindig in so outre a fashion. Cocking a snook at Providence with their own inimitable elan .
The last time such a thumbing-the- nose -at Providence stunt was pulled ,was the Shah's 1971 Coronation in the ruins of Persepolis. And we all know the denouement of that particular saga.
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bethpa,
One more point. Don't underestimate the ability of Americans to self-correct. Many Americans realize we've become a consumer nation.
Have you heard of the "voluntary simplicity" movement? It's a fascinating group of people who have kicked their shopping habits.
My husband lovingly places articles about this movement where I'll see them. ; )
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Although I believe our government shares part of the responsibility for the fiscal, economic and international problems we are experiencing I believe that ultimately we - the people - are the most responsible for our woes.
We live in a democratic country, we elect our leaders, we have the power to impeach them and the ability to ensure our policies and actions are vetted by a system of check and balances. When we re-elect a President whose fiscal and economic policies are based on the premise that paying for the services we get is an evil concept and that the preferred approach is to borrow and spend, and print more currency, we are endorsing his ideas and we become responsible for the consequences of those policies. The same goes for foreign policy.
The only reason I think President Bush shares part of the responsibility is because he used deceit to advance his foreign policy agenda, the erosion of civil liberties, his tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, and because he lacks the courage to tell us we are acting irresponsibly.
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ref #299
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ref #299
No Obama has been a leading talker on the International and National stage there is a difference.
Democrats who are major players internationally are people like Biden, Richardson or Kennedy.
In pratical experience and doing something that has resulted in change Palin far surpasses Obama
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AndreainNY
I've been in Canada now for 3 years..and I've lived in other nations too. The US culture is shallow...and its very difficult for parents to fight a culture. Children learn in school and from friends and from the mass media. Some Christians and others have isolated their families with home schooling and little to no tv to avoid the American culture of mindless consumerism.
Look at the news on tv and think about what you are seeing..Are they telling you things in depth? Are those stories really important to the US and its future? or just sensationalism? What is happening in other nations? There must be news worthy stories in other nations..why aren't you hearing more about what is going on in other nations?
Imo the news gives you a little information so that you think you know but in reality people in the US do not have good information about .... say for example ....what the health care systems are like in other western nations. People base opinions on small snippets of information or on an ideological base ...like saying no to socialism..but are the other health care systems really socialism ..or is that a word that was used by the AMA and others like insurance companies to keep their profits high with a privatized health care system...
Well now its called universal health care...instead of socialized medicine. As Shakespeare wrote..."a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".. Well yes but the name affects the perception..and if "roses" were called "garbage cans" would people smell them?
"Don't underestimate the ability of Americans to self-correct."
(AndreainNY quote)
I hope you are right.
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Dominick,
all minor, of course ;-)Andrea, Plenty in the article I linked.
Cyril, See this, confirming that awareness
Kaloo,
Pot, kettle.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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# 306
Raises very valid points.
Crucially, how can "self-correction" take place in the presence of professionally organizaed misinformation? The spind-doctors are highly paid and highly professional.
One need not consciously foster or receive the “ideological state apparatus”. The individual living in a society will naturally absorb most of the official explanations.
Satisfied or fearful conservatives will predictably stick with the old ideology. The less fortunate may even consider themselves better off, if persuaded by media and leaders.
Consent may be engineered, but it also comes naturally as one seeks to conform to society.
In 1932, Americans realized that they had been "had" by the established system. As one sits and stares at television today, is such a realization likely?
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From Andrew Sullivan:
"The Republicans that will be happy about this are the ones that have now become as disconnected from the average America as the Elite East Coast Democrats they despise (Hewitt, Limbaugh, Dobson, Hannity). They are reading America wrong and McCain is following them into the abyss.
The average Hillary voter would never support a woman like Palin. They are anathema to each other. And the average middle-class Mom is going to say, "What's a woman with children that young (and one with Down-syndrome) doing thinking that she can leave them everyday to be a Vice-President or possibly President?" Yes, she's a governor of sparsely populated Alaska now, but to be the 2nd most important person in the United States in our post-911 world is not the place for a very nice, young mother.
McCain was suffering an enthusiasm deficit before, and once the initial hype passes, the silence will be deafening. I predict a blow-out now. Gravitas was McCain's strongest asset and by choosing Harriet Myers Jr., he took the Rovian gambit too far. This will only mobilize and excite conservatives who already loathed Obama from the beginning. And even then, they will just be hiding their disappointment."
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#300 Simon21
There are people who feel the Jews were never really accepted in Europe in the way that they have been accepted in the US. There has been a long history of prejudice in Europe (pogroms etc) and still many Jews in Germany thought of themselves first as German before the rise of Nazism, only to have the worst prejudice possible directed at them in the form of genocide. They felt betrayed, lied to and deceived and no longer knew who to trust.
America has been sympathetic to the inhumanity of the holocaust while not directing attention to the human rights crime of slavery and the resultant prejudice against blacks. ( Holocaust Museum in Washington DC)
I think it helps to set up ideals about human rights and then apply them to any issues. If people work from principles rather than from nationality or religion..then there might be some common beliefs that we can use about how human beings should be treated.( but thats not always true ...imo particularly in the international treatment of women)
( There were Jews in the US who did not help fellow Jews escape the Holocaust and now many Jews feel they must help fellow Jews.."because if not us..then who?" It is those centuries of prejudice that have made many feel like Israel was a place that Jews could go to to escape prejudice...when no other place would accept them.)
Isn't it worthwhile to try to understand the opinions and emotions of others even if you do not agree with them?
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306, bethpa,
I've travelled many places but have only lived in the US, and every time I return, I'm thankful to return here. This was particularly true when I returned from Africa and Dubai, but those are special cases.
As for Americans' ignorance and lack of understanding of other cultures, well, you're discussing this with Americans on the BBC's website.
The US is a huge country. We have states with cultures as different as any two European countries. If you look at the topics covered by a meeting of US governers, you realize how broad the issues are facing our federal government.
And, though nothing replaces living day-to-day in another's culture, Americans live every day with people from all over the world. At any family gathering, you'd probably find at least several family members who were born elsewhere. Certainly, within one or two generations, most American families have foreign-born members.
I applaud Christians who homeschool their kids. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is.
Finally, health care. We need change, but I'm not sure a system without a market component is healthy. Managed care came about to better manage doctors. Now, we need to better manage the managers. I'm encouraged by the movement to use measures (ex., of infection rates) to influence care. I believe access definitely needs to improve.
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Further to the influence of the media:
A common phrase among the pick-up truck set is "nuke 'em all". They spend a lot of time in front of TV.
Media now create instant mass psychology, consequently facilitating mob reaction. Mob action is "characterized by a sense of freedom, power, and lust for destructive aggression" (Kernberg, 2000).
The susceptibility is further increased by television, whereby individual integration of information is reduced and violent moves providing quick resolution are illustrated.
[That 'individual integration of information' is important, because the indoctrinated get their idea set as a package]
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bethpa, I'm not going to comment on your speculations about me personally.
What I have said about myself is that I am from the Bronx (the toughest place on earth which is where the toughest people and dogs come from), that I am a real person, that I do not post under any other moniker on BBC, and that I detest Europe and most of the Europeans I've met in my life or seen in the media although not necessarily for the reasons you state.
You are apparantly against banks and lending. A loan is a bet on the future. For the borrower it is a bet that he can get something of value now whicih he might not otherwise have the resources for and pay for it at a higher price later when he expects he will have more money. It may be something which will make money for him such as a financial instrument or other physically real tools, a home, or something he just wants. To the lender it is a way to make money earn more money. Banks and markets are a crucial mechanism for creating wealth. Societies which do not have banking institutions can only depend on others from outside short of stealing the fruits of slave labor such as socialists and communists do. This is why the US government's policy deliberately encourages lending and borrowing. If you are going to have a free market, risk cannot be avoided. And the system has worked remarkably. In a mere two hundred and thirty two years, the US system of capitalism of which banking is a crucial element has created mindboggling wealth which has enriched the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Go to Canada and rent an apartment. See if you are better off. Too bad you squandered the fruits of your efforts or those you inherited on frivolous whims. More prudent money management might have brought you greater financial prosperity in your lifetime and allowed you to indulge yourself now to a far greater degree. The desire to accumulate money and possessions in not an American affliction, it is part of the human condition. It is basic to our psychology and is found in every culture in the world even though it often cannot be gratified the way it is in America. The pursuit of happiness for many people includes the pursuit of money and the things money can buy.
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I just saw Obama's ad linking McCain and Bush.
I'm beginning to believe that the only person Obama can successfully compete against is President Bush, thus, Bush will be reincarnated to allow Obama to compete against him and only him.
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Those who chant catch phrases will probably find this, too, subversive of the "American Way of Life":
Sex, urban economic life, and media offer alienation. Economic life in a modern city environment forces alienation.
One sees people but has little contact with them. Economic change or expansion destroys stability.
Similarly, people sitting at home and receiving preformed images from television are alienated from their fellows and from reality.
Eric Fromm thinks that modern emphasis on sex represents a pathological alienation from the real world.
What say you, does the emphasis on sex represent alienation from humanity?
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To bethpa
Thank you for the link in #292. It was extremely interesting. Not least for Romney's sometimes part in it. That is described more in here: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/07/29/romneys-massachusetts-health-plan-could-hurt-vp-chances/
In the article which is linked from the above, which is at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121581699254147423.html
Romney says:
That is what I meant by people needing a personal experience of it to overcome the ideological barrier. Hopefully it will move organically to other states.
The problem I have with Obama is alluded to in your original link. It says:
You have to subtract from that $869m about $68m because of reductions in the cost of free hospital treatment. That makes it $801m for about 6.5m people (Massachusetts) which multiplies out to about $40bn for the whole USA.
That assumes several things:
(1) That those numbers are correct
(2) That other states are mirrors of Massachusetts
(3) That the kind of creeping growth which afflicts other healthcare systems does not occur here
I believe all of the above are quite unlikely and he is advocating tax cuts above all.
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Ref 301
"Just wondering : what if Obama does get elected and begins to trot out error after error and misstep after misstep . Will they go their merry way as ever . Blithely sweeping it all under the carpet . And continuing to sing Hosannas to Him".
Judging by his tendency to consider the opinions of others, and his willingness to change course when proven wrong, I would say that, if elected, he will consult his Cabinet, VP, and advisors, and will listen to their opinions, before making a decision.
He demonstrated good judgment when he picked Biden as his running mate. Biden's foreign policy experience, his appeal to seniors and blue collar workers, and his middle class roots are very comforting to many Americans and demonstrate a level of pragmatism that is not evident in his opponent.
When it comes to presidential experience, the only ones that can claim that attribute are Presidents running for re-election and VPs. The "experiences" of others help us formulate an opinion about them, and may be a reflection on their character, but more often than not those experiences are irrelevant to the demands of being President.
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bethpa 310#300 Simon21
"America has been sympathetic to the inhumanity of the holocaust while not directing attention to the human rights crime of slavery and the resultant prejudice against blacks. ( Holocaust Museum in Washington DC)"
What a defamatory lie. If what you say is true, how do you explain the Civil War, by far the worst war in American history? How do you explain the civil rights movement? How do you explain Barack Obama? By contrast, Europe hasn't budged...ever. Where is their civil rights movement? Where are their laws and enforcement of equal employment opportunity or equal opportunity in housing? Where are their affirmative action programs? Where are the crimnial prosecutions for violations of them or civil penalties? There aren't any. They don't even acknowledge that they have a problem.
It came out in the 1980s that the way Canada treats its "aborigines" the people we call Native Americans in the US is every bit as bad or worse than the American government has. There's just been no publicity about it.
If you wanted to learn something about the world from US television, why didn't you watch stations like PBS, C-Span, Book TV (C-Span II), The History Channel, The Discovery Channel, or The National Geographic Channel? When it comes to being informative, complete, objective, well researched, and useful, they make BBC look like small time amateurs.
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309. Cyril_Croydon:
Andrew Sullivan is right about average Hillary's voters. They're probably even angrier now, because this really isn't about them. They've been dissed twice now. But they're going to have to go back to the drawing board if they want their candidate elected. It's over for them-- this time.
I think he's wrong about average American women. I think he doesn't really understand them. They can be energized by a woman even if she shoots a gun and they don't. She's a woman with some accomplishments under her belt.
He, like many, makes a mistake by dismissing her outright.
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Is the American culture now narcissistic?
Television functions as religion. Fore’s 'Television and Religion' sees television as the primary expression of moral attitudes and values in today’s society.
And who puts those "values" before the society?
Television offers a religion of instant, infantile, personal gratification in an imaginary world.
Such a religion is completely at variance with ideals of altruism, transcendence, and community.
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The problem for people like bethpa is that when you are born in America and do not succeed in life, you have nobody to blame but yourself. The proof of this is that not only have countless Americans made prosperous happy lives for themselves but so have countless tens of millions of people who came to America with nothing. Many spoke no English, had no money, had no education. Yet many of them within their lifetimes accumulated wealth and raised families with successful children they never could have dreamt of in the countries they left. This leaves people like Bethpa with only one out and that is to blame the system. They cannot explain why it worked for so many people who had far fewer advantages than they had, all they can point to is to those who are still struggling or have given up hope. That she and others have squandered their chances is nobody's fault but their own. America is a land of opportunity, not guarantees as she and other socialists and communists would have it. In those countries that do offer guarantees, to that degree they also guarantee mediocrity or failure while limiting or precluding success.
Bethpa, if you don't like Canada, try Cuba or North Korea. They won't let you go homeless or starve...at least not Cuba anyway.
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Xie_Ming
I hate to have to break it to you but....television is no longer almost exclusively an American consumer artifact. People in every country in the world watch television. And guess what, just about all of them get to see and enjoy American television programs.
And what has this culture of infantile instant gratification resulted in? Raising an inexperienced incompetent to a point where he may become president. It's based on a dangerous fantasy seen in many TV progams and Hollywood movies.
America is not about altruism, transcendence, or community, it is about making money. The business of America is business. The rest is a mere indulgence. In the US the individual does not exist for the good of society and he is not its property. Contrast that with other systems like socialism or communism. Now that is what real slavery is about.
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In reply to #284, chill0:
Very nice. So the Evangelical diatribes by some were purely bigoted vitriol and misinformation.
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AndreainNY
ANNIE OAKLEY:
Oh my Mother was frightened by a shotgun, they say,
That's why I'm such a wonderful shot.
I'd be am out in the cactus and I practice all day,
And now tell me what have I got.
I'm quick on the trigger with targets not much bigger
Than a pen point, I'm number one.
But my score with a feller is lower than a cellar-
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
When I'm with a pistol
I sparkle like a crystal,
Yes, I shine like the morning sun.
But I lose all my luster
When with a Bronco Buster.
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
With a gun, with a gun,
No, you can't get a man with a gun.
If I went to battle
With someone's herd of cattle
You'd have steak when the job was done.
But if shot the herder,
They'd holler "bloody murder"
And you can't shoot a male
In the tail like a quail
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
I'm cool, brave and daring
To see a lion glaring
When I'm out with my Remington
But a look from a mister
Will raise a fever blister
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
The gals with "umbrellars"
Are always out with fellers
In the rain or the blazing sun
But a man never trifles
With gals who carry rifles
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
With a gun, with a gun,
No, you can't get a man with a gun.
A man's love is mighty
It'll leave him buy a nightie
For a gal who he thinks is fun.
But they don't by pajamas
For Pistol packin' mamas,
And you can't get a hug
From a mug with a slug,
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.
I like the way Hyacinth Bucket sang it.
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MAII: Haha. I'm always entertained by stories (on conservative websites) about a grandma who foiled a robbery attempt because she was a good shot.
The hysteria over Palin's NRA, pro-life, etc., positions are equally entertaining. You can almost hear the shrieks. Get the smelling salts.
Recently, in Tanzania, during a meeting with Masai, the Masai gentlemen was about to show us the weapon he carries, when he stopped, and asked, "Can I take it out?".
We all got a good chuckle out of that. Seems some tourists can't even handle seeing a Masai holding his knife.
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marcus,
You must take your medication at the right time,other wise post #324,becomes your norm....
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In reply to #315, Xie_Ming:
"What say you, does the emphasis on sex represent alienation from humanity?"
What planet are you from?
It's not an emphasis on sex. It's an emphasis on entertainment. In the post industrialized world, the masses are kept busy with meaningless work sufficient to give them enough disposable income and enough time off to spend it on professional sports, video games, television, movies, internet, MP3's or sex. The new opiates of the masses, or as Erich Fromm would say, escape mechanisms. What percentage of people are really focused on doing something meaningful?
The truth is that the number of people needed to supply the basic needs of a population is surprisingly small. Most of what is produced and consumed is luxury or senseless waste. That leaves a vast number of people who are aimlessly looking for a sense of purpose in society other than consumer.
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#324. MarcusAureliusII: Annie Oakley - at the very least you could have acknowledged the writer, Irving Berlin. The post is probably copyright infringement anyway since it's the entire song from 'Annie Get Your Gun'.
Incidentally, the real Annie Oakely was a professional 'sharpshooter' and rode, standing on a horse, to demonstrate her prowess.
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#313 Marcus
"You are apparantly against banks and lending".
No I am against usury. Some credit cards have interest rates of 36% ..
( I own property in Canada which I am renting and I am trying to set up a business and I own stocks..I'm a capitalist. I could have bought a retirement home and lived a lazy life..Instead I am trying to figure out how to make money with a business and hoping to leave behind something of value for my grandchildren. Maybe I will fail..but at least I will have tried..I'm a risk taker..I'm an American and I was the first one in my family to go to college..)
#318
"how do you explain the Civil War, "
The war was fought to keep the union. It took more than 100 years after the Civil War before blacks were given rights close to the rights given to whites. If the war had been fought to help blacks there would have been better rights for blacks after the war..and that did not happen.
Blacks were used to humiliate southern whites after the Civil War was lost by the South but after the humiliation then blacks were returned back to a lower level in society. It was very difficult to get equal rights for blacks in America and some people died in the process.
They were segregated in all aspects of life until after the 1950's and many had family histories that dated back to the 1600's. Thats over 300 years of oppression. After slavery many blacks were in such economic conditions as to be called economic slavery.
"Where is their civil rights movement? Where are their laws and enforcement of equal employment opportunity or equal opportunity in housing? Where are their affirmative action programs? Where are the crimnial prosecutions for violations of them or civil penalties? There aren't any. They don't even acknowledge that they have a problem."
I'll leave that for Europeans to counter. They should know better than me what has been happening in Europe.
"It came out in the 1980s that the way Canada treats its "aborigines" the people we call Native Americans in the US is every bit as bad or worse than the American government has."
Canadians talk a lot about the First Nation . There are special programs in education etc to help them.. Some Canadians are irritated by what they see as unfair privileges. Others think the First Nation needs help because of the higher crime rates and higher poverty.. There is a cable station on tv that is for the First Nation and their culture..with movies etc...Some Canadians think that if the First Nation has pride in their heritage that might help alleviate the poverty and crime problems. Some of the source of the problems is thought to be a sense of alientation and a cultural void caused by a culture clash which destroyed the First Nation's cultural heritage.
Now Canada makes it a policy to celebrate the various cultures which are in Canada.and celebrates multiculturalism. Some people feel it is impossible to have so many cultures and not to have the kind of cultural integration that occurs in America. Its an interesting experiment and I like seeing all the different cultures in cities like Toronto and Vancouver. I think they can do it..I think multi culturalism is possible in one nation.
"why didn't you watch stations like PBS, C-Span, Book TV (C-Span II), The History Channel, The Discovery Channel, or The National Geographic Channel? When it comes to being informative, complete, objective, well researched, and useful, they make BBC look like small time amateurs."
I did : ) but I like the BBC too and the internet is fantastic..but the cable news tv stations in the US are extemely poor.
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Once it becomes evident, even to the indoctrinated, that the American psyche is molded by media, principally TV
and that the people who control the TV and its values
are exclusively out to benefit themselves
then, they will understand that their views have been shaped
without knowing anything about the "ideological state apparatus".
When can then return to the special conditioning of the evangelicals.
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#277. allmymarbles: Personal responsibility is so easy to say, but when mortgage consultants (receiving commissions or other financial incentives) who borrowers trust, make it so easy - too easy - for them, then the fault must lie with the lender or the officer concerned. By ignoring the lack of income and making the loan, the bank is essentially committing fraud since the loan/mortgage should never have been approved in the first place.
#287.nikki noodle One doesn't have to be a parent to know about Down Syndrome (no 's in the US). My immediate neighbour had a Down Syndrome child who had zero quality of life, could not speak, became very aggressive and ruined his parents lives before dying at 15. There was no good to anyone involved, least of all the child concerned. You might want to read my post at #247 before commenting on parenthood - you tell me which would have been better; early termination or the appalling death which the baby received.
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I am not sure whether any evangelicals wish to contest any of the points:
It is time for the civilized to understand the extent (and portent) of the evangelicals on US development:
(1) The World was created some 6,000 years ago.
(2) Makind is in constant struggle with the Devil (as the Hebrews brought back from Babylon). The Devil is everywhere.
(3) All, including babes, are inbued with Original Sin (which can never be extinguished, but can be mollified by a) tithing, b) public confession c) being born again e) attacking the targets suggested by the minister.
(4) We are living close to End Times, which will be realized by Armageddon in the Near East, and the faithful will be swept up bare in the Rapture to sit in the clouds at the right hand of the Lord and watch the unsaved write in agony below.
[All those who do not agree are obviously to be excoriated as instruments of the Devil]
When facts or reason fail, attack the person!
The evangelicals are, as the NeoCons realize, easily manipulated, especially in the interests of Israel.
With the designation of an evangelical as a VP candidate, the issue ought to be polarizing.
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#331
When indoctrinated ideology meets reason, there is no communication possible!
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#329. "No I am against usury. Some credit cards have interest rates of 36%."Correction! I recently used a Macy's card intending to pay off the bill immediately (which I did) and was astonished to read that the rate was 41%. No wonder the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.
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In reply to #333, Xie_Ming:
I might have to dumb it down then and try to break through your "indoctrinated ideology".
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In reply to #332, Xie_Ming:
This is a repeat of #210.
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bethpa
Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you dense?
If the Union hadn't cared about slavery, there would have been no civil war, no secession. (BTW, having grown up in the North and been intoctrinated in that culture's view of history, I hadn't considered it until recently and come to the conclusion that the South had every legal right to secede. The Civil War may have been illegal. I can't find anything in the Constitution that denied the South that right.)
Don't try to teach me about the Reconstruction era, I'm familiar with it.
"...300 years of oppression..." More than half of that was under the rule of European governments. At least Americans tried to do something about it and after generations have made some progress. Europeans have been at oppression for well over a thousand years, maybe over two thousand and have hardly made a dent. Where are the Europeans' answers? They don't have any, there aren't any. They don't acknowledge even having a problem while belittling America's efforts to acknowledge and correct it, a problem which was a legacy they left us with. They have no Barack Obamas, no Colin Powells, no Condalizza Rice, no Martin Luther King. They have nothing to show they even care.
In the 1980s when Quebec wanted to secede from Canada again, two other provinces had Aboriginal demands to secede also. They wanted to be divorced from the prejudice of the Canadian government in Ottawa. The dirt finally came out from under the Canadian rug and it was no prettier than America's. They couldn't pretend anymore. BTW, there are still many legitimate complaints among them against the Provincial governments.
If you don't like CNN, MSNBC, or Fox News don't watch them. Interesting that this is what people compare BBC to when they talk about American news media. Were they to compare it to PBS's coverage, it would come out a miserable second. Instead of trying to inform its audience with expert opinions on all sides and let them decide the way PBS does, BBC tries to instruct its audience what to think. It doesn't trust them to make up their own minds. It thinks it has a monopoly on knowledge and understanding. It's the characteristic of an elitist mentality that still has an aristocratic structure and a monarchy as its nominal head of state. It is neither rational nor democratic.
I don't know where you went to college but if you want to petition for a refund of your tuition, I'll write in support of it. Your instructors did not earn their salary.
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Glad to see justins finally figuring out it is about age, the young un's are getting restless oldies. watch out.
They have studied you and your world all their lives while you ignored them.
Be careful with their planet from now on.
Even if you "can't recall" they will probably have it on film.
I think politically they are about to send the oldies off to the oldies home.
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#332
The query is specifically directed to evangelicals
who may wish to contest any of the points raised.
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337 MA ,You asking if some one is being deliberately obtuse is rel funny.
So I take back that comment to whoever said you provided amusement ,when I said it was not funny.
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# 333
Refers to evangelical indoctrination.
Evangelicals are invited to respond.
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One of the glorious aspects of (most of) the BBC is that it gives space to even the most egregious critics.
This, incidentally, used to be considered good newspaper editorial practice.
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In reply to #300, Simon21:
I thought you said that you admired Stalin, and that he was a great commander in chief. Better than Churchill.
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"337. At 5:22pm on 30 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
bethpa
Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you dense?
If the Union hadn't cared about slavery, there would have been no civil war, no secession. (BTW, having grown up in the North and been intoctrinated in that culture's view of history, I hadn't considered it until recently and come to the conclusion that the South had every legal right to secede. The Civil War may have been illegal. I can't find anything in the Constitution that denied the South that right.)
Don't try to teach me about the Reconstruction era, I'm familiar with it."
But not with much else. You have just dicovered that the South had the right to secede?
Amazing. Ever heard of President Jackson?
""...300 years of oppression..." More than half of that was under the rule of European governments. At least Americans tried to do something about it "
Did they? what western European state had ofifically enforced colour bars after 1945 and when did the UK ever have them?
". Europeans have been at oppression for well over a thousand years, maybe over two thousand and have hardly made a dent. Where are the Europeans' answers? They don't have any, there aren't any. They don't acknowledge even having a problem while belittling America's efforts to acknowledge and correct it,"
That's right, they don't have a problem.
Lynching was a US insitution after all, and one it persisted with through the 1960s.
Maybe that was your idea about addressing the problem?
Now of course things are cleaner - but what colour are most of the men on death row (and most of the women)?
"a problem which was a legacy they left us with. They have no Barack Obamas, no Colin Powells, no Condalizza Rice, no Martin Luther King. They have nothing to show they even care."
Well you are welcome to COlin Powell and Condi - comic figures both.
But Luther king was murdered in the US. He would not have been in Europe.
So pretty feeble examples, two hopeless incompetents and one assassin victim.
There are lots of black americans as there are black Europeans. You will find, like white people, there are many worthies among them.
"In the 1980s when Quebec wanted to secede from Canada again, two other provinces had Aboriginal demands to secede also. They wanted to be divorced from the prejudice of the Canadian government in Ottawa. The dirt finally came out from under the Canadian rug and it was no prettier than America's. They couldn't pretend anymore. BTW, there are still many legitimate complaints among them against the Provincial governments."
Hmmm but you called the US aborigines "primitive barbarians"? So here is yet another example of you contradicting yourself with your own prejudices!
One would submit there are evidently primitive barbarians in the US (as there are everywhere, but few of them become head of state) but they are plainly not defined by their ethnicity, or skin colour.
.
"If you don't like CNN, MSNBC, or Fox News don't watch them. Interesting that this is what people compare BBC to when they talk about American news media. Were they to compare it to PBS's coverage, it would come out a miserable second."
PBS! to echo a famous US tennis player you cannot be serious!
This is equivalent to your quoting of Newt Gringrich as a historian.
" Instead of trying to inform its audience with expert opinions on all sides and let them decide the way PBS does"
But there are not expert opinnions on all sides are there? Unless you call every crank an "expert".
"BBC tries to instruct its audience what to think. It doesn't trust them to make up their own minds. It thinks it has a monopoly on knowledge and understanding. It's the characteristic of an elitist mentality that still has an aristocratic structure and a monarchy as its nominal head of state. It is neither rational nor democratic."
It assumes its audience has minds, which much of the US media does not. After the enormous number of scandals which have wracked the US media over the last few years no one gives it credibility any more.
The US media is still desperately trying to restore its credibility.
"I don't know where you went to college but if you want to petition for a refund of your tuition, I'll write in support of it. Your instructors did not earn their salary. "
Very decent of you, but your college evidently did not teach you how to reason without contradiciting yourself.
Mind you it also apparently taught its unfortunates that there were four world wars.
God knows what its geography classes were like.
You must regret not getting a proper European education
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281, Real.
It is my guess that if Xie is being used, she doesn't know it.
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318. At 3:33pm on 30 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
bethpa 310#300 Simon21
"America has been sympathetic to the inhumanity of the holocaust while not directing attention to the human rights crime of slavery and the resultant prejudice against blacks. ( Holocaust Museum in Washington DC)"
What a defamatory lie. I"
Why because you say so? Actually a fact.
"If what you say is true, how do you explain the Civil War, by far the worst war in American history?"
The Civil war was over states rights, not slavery. This is why it is officially called the war of the rebellion and the confederates were called rebels.
"How do you explain the civil rights movement?"
The appalling apartheid treatment ofmany US citizens.
"How do you explain Barack Obama?"
One man?
" By contrast, Europe hasn't budged...ever. Where is their civil rights movement? Where are their laws and enforcement of equal employment opportunity or equal opportunity in housing?"
Most of the startes of western Europe has more advanced civil legislation than the US.
"Where are their affirmative action programs? Where are the crimnial prosecutions for violations of them or civil penalties? There aren't any. They don't even acknowledge that they have a problem."
Hmm, difficult one. You do not obviously see, or read anything about Europe. Ok ever hear of London? Ever heard of the Met? Ever heard of the commission of racial equality?
Anyway did you not call native americans primitive barbarians?
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Don't try to teach me about the Reconstruction era, I'm familiar with it.
you claim knowlage on a lot but have yet to prove it , so it really is not surprising that people who have read many of you comments would try to teach you.
They normally do not try hitting you with a 4 x 4 , your favourite teaching tool is this where they fail.
Your comments regarding pbs is classic.
Any one living here in the US would know that pbs news the news hour, use a huge amount on either the BBC or ITN correspondents to cover those area of the world not america(which for some of you americans info is a lot of the world).
You have tried to argue about this before but really every one else(maybe not mejerk) who watches it (or listens to npr ) will know that this is the case.
They have their own programing here in the states but many of the shows from pbs come from the UK,or are made in a partnership with the UK.
Including the information shows.
science shows and many of you NOVA program specials are exactly that type of show. made in conjunction with a american voice over.
The planet earth series with the old man David Atty will get on there eventually.It is too good not to be shown on good old PBS.
but notice it is PUBLIC broadcasting station.
And the funding ids being pulled because of it's Pro-Truth agenda.
The Bill Moyers and Charlie Roses exposing the cruel joke of modern America.
The people being conned when the electric car was killed.
How america had it's trains taken(despite the fact that they the tax payers had paid millions to build the railways).
How the Jobs are exported so fat cats can get richer.
How their elders and betters have ignored the environment tried to patent peoples genes .
PBS is great but if it can do so much to show america how badly things have been going and so many still don't get it.
They must be failing in some way.
Personally I would not put any of the burden
of guilt on them but on those that Ignore it as Left wing, or see it and still don't get it.
And Charlie Rose is real good friends with Bill Moyers and they agree on Israel and favour Carter .
Before you go down any of those paths as you normally do.
I write this not for Mostly erronios but for all the others that don't get PBS.
It is worth looking at their programs they are well done and certainly are not as bias (to the left) as some in america seem to think.
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In reply to #339, Xie_Ming;
Most evangelical denominations would view your propositions as ludicrous. There are some fundamentalist sects who may believe all of your tenets,
1) particular to those who adhere to scriptural infallibility (e.g. Adventists).
2) most religions on the planet delineate between good and evil. Metaphysically, the struggle between good and evil is represented by spiritual actors. The burden of sin and bad Karma are little difference.
3) many Christian denominations, including Catholics believe in the principle of original sin.
4) again, many Christian denominations including Catholics share the Apocalyptic view of end times.
Why you'd want to portray some of this as particular to Evangelicals speaks more to your purpose in posting this tripe twice. You don't seem to understand the diversity in thought within that broad brush you call Evangelicals. I believe you are thinking of certain fringe political evangelicals, like Pat Robertson.
"The evangelicals are, as the NeoCons realize, easily manipulated, especially in the interests of Israel."
Maybe it is the Israeli's who find the Neo-Cons easy to manipulate? Are you aware of the number of "Evangelicals" that are against the war? Are you aware of the awareness within Evangelicals for saving the planet?
Maybe demagoguery is unwarranted.
Did you know that 51% of Democrats believe that 9-11 was an inside job? Another poll found that 14% of Democrats thought it was fair to characterize Guantanamo as a Nazi concentration camp.
What were you saying about indoctrination and reason?
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# 347
The indoctrination within the USA is so extensive that
"liberal" is an epithet, although those whose use it can't define it.
The dissonant must be "socialist" or "communist" (they aren't sure which is which).
Since PBS is discordant with their commercial TV, PBS must be corrupted by foreign ideologies.
When the NeoCons manipulate the evangelicals, one can see the USA becoming like Franco's Spain.
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#288
I like your style Ed.
I want to become the Member of Parliament for Exeter. What would you suggest, should I set up my own web site and then see what happens.
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Simon really here are some links to show you what PBS says, not what Mostly erronious says they say
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08292008/watch.html
http://www.pbs.org/tradesecrets/
now I like to show Bill Moyers links because it does offend Majik Auraless.
But look around . you will find that the shows are rather balanced .
"Front line "is a good investigative show, nut again many of these shows include British produced content.
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And they never get so condescending as to say " Clever Boy".
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Reference has been made to Darwin and randomness.
I find this a very logical concept. I think that as soon as Darwin identified the origin of species then it was actually the end, because obviously there was no plan for anything. As soon as mankind started to distort all aspects of nature then we are in a completely different ball game.
Mankind maintains some breeds of animals because they are nice. Would anybody really miss slugs if they became extinct. I refer especially to women gardners who destroy them because they eat their favourite flowers.
Mankind seems to want to eradicate chaos. Without chaos there is nothing.
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In reply to 346, 318, 310, 300;
If you are going to argue about the status of Black people in America, try using some data to frame your views rather than your misconceptions.
http://www.blackdemographics.com/index.html
The most indicative demographic of Black America is that Blacks have 20% fewer married couples and more than twice as many single parent families households than the average American household. As the site says, "The biggest driver of rising income and living standards of American families is the two-paycheck family. Due to low marriage and high divorce rates, too few African-Americans benefit from that trend. And now that 70% of Black babies are born out of wedlock it looks like things will not change for the better anytime soon."
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About the civil war...
It was always my impression that while the primary purpose of the North was to uphold the union, the actual secession of the Southern states was entirely caused by disagreements over the legality of slavery/slavery related issues?
Forgive me if I'm being silly or off-topic.
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94, bethpa.
I taught my children that they should only have what they could pay for in cash. The only exceptions were education and homes. Even a car had to be a cash deal.
I warned them about ads that said "you are worth it." No, no. If you don't have the money, you aren't.
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81 OLD says that Obama will ruin our freedoms.
Which ever one GW leaves us with.
Old south better arguments than ,I'm a racist who can't admit it, are required to convince non racists.
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On this Forum, it is useful distinguish the sincere posters from the propagandists.
We are familiar with the tactics of "swiftboating" and ad-hominem attack.
As noted above, these points are for the response of evangelicals, since the points concern their belief set.
For a propagandist to intervene is not to have an evangelical response and besmirches the search for understanding:
With these convictions, what is the portent of the evangelicals for US development?
(1) The World was created some 6,000 years ago.
(2) Makind is in constant struggle with the Devil (as the Hebrews brought back from Babylon). The Devil is everywhere.
(3) All, including babes, are inbued with Original Sin (which can never be extinguished, but can be mollified by a) tithing, b) public confession c) being born again e) attacking the targets suggested by the minister.
(4) We are living close to End Times, which will be realized by Armageddon in the Near East, and the faithful will be swept up bare in the Rapture to sit in the clouds at the right hand of the Lord and watch the unsaved writhe in agony below.
[All those who do not agree are obviously to be excoriated as instruments of the Devil]
The evangelicals are, as the NeoCons realize, easily manipulated, especially in the interests of Israel.
With the designation of an evangelical as a VP candidate, the issue ought to become important to American voters.
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# 353
The fundies still think that "Darwinists" claim
man is descended from monkeys-
actually, they are our cousins
as of 5.5-6 million years ago.
But, of course, that is impossible, since we are indoctrinated to believe that the Earth was created only 6,000 years ago!
Yes, the random process is an essential aspect to genetic evolution.
Such genetics form about 20% of today's medicine.
They also tell us that we are descended from a group that left Ethiopia 60,000-100,000 years ago
[We are all out of Africa!]
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285 chillo
your views on evolution are interesting.
"Without it, the gene pool narrows dangerously and whatever the species, it faces extinction. It is why Hitler and others who believe in ethnic superiority and selective breeding are condemning that race to species death"
That Race?
Which race?
It is why.
NO they did it because they were crazy racists.
The rest of your argument is a little screwy as well btw.
the basic premise that humans are insulating themselves from evolution is true.
People with really bad Eye sight like me had better be a really good craftsman or a vegetarian.
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I agree that palin will give a lot of gop supporters somewhere to go and a reason to vote for them,More than Big chips
but should the ad run
" Big Chips, once he dies we can have some real change?"
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357, Jack.
Look up nos. 163, 166 and 167 under "Joe Biden's speech - live."
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320, Xie.
Oh, my, I know you have reading your manual again because you are all preachy, preachy.
As to "such a religion is completly at variance with the ideals of altruism, transcendence and community," I presume you mean at variance with your virtues.
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In reply to #355, fortmisery:
As a legacy of British colonialism, the southern plantation culture relied economically on slave labor. Drastic change is never desired, but no change was seen to be forthcoming to satisfy the righteous abolitionist fervor in the majority of states.
During this time massive expansion into the territories of the US began, and new States began to be formed. These new States were almost all non-Slave states. Critical mass against the former slave colonies meant that inevitably slavery would be banished by Constitutional Amendment. Therefore, just before that happened, the eleven states that allowed slavery declared secession from the United States.
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326, ukwales.
I am so jealous you got your comment printed. About a week ago I told staphylococcus, "It's time for your medication," and the moderators got mad and punished me.
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330, Xie.
How can someone as brainwashed as you try to tell us we are the victims of brainwashing? There is something odd about your circuitry. Are you an alien?
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Ref 349
"When the NeoCons manipulate the evangelicals, one can see the USA becoming like Franco's Spain".
I agree that the neocons - and all the other special interests that influence American policies - are manipulating the evangelicals and fundamentalists to achieve their goals, the same way religious leaders influence government policies, but I think comparing what is happening in the USA to what took place in Franco's Spain is a bit of a stretch.
I lived 12 years in Spain when Franco was in power and believe me when I tell you that there was no subtlety or ambiguity in the demands that his government imposed on the society of that country regarding the need to embrace Catholic dogma and support the interests of the Church.
However, not only were the circumstances completely different, but the approach and effects were diametrically opposed to what we see in the USA today.
In many ways what is happening in the USA is the opposite to what took place in Spain in Franco's days. Here the policies of our government are influenced by the neocons, who more often than not are religious zealots intent not only in influencing lifestyle at home, but on imposing their values on other cultures, regardless of how incompatible or unwelcome they may be.
An interesting facet of this issue is the reaction of the populace after Franco died. Religiosity is conspicuous by its absence, moral values and traditions have changed dramatically, and the outlook on life for the average citizen is completely different from what existed when religion was mandatory rather than a choice to be made or rejected by each individual.
In our case, neither the neocons, religious leaders, nor the government demand proof of religious affiliation as a pre-condition to get a job, attend certain schools, travel, or own a business to name a few prerogatives.
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334, David.
I am also against usury. It is all the fault of having a government that is ruled by business interests. The system has become so institutionalized that I doubt anyone can fix it.
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In reply to #358, Xie_Ming:
This is your third troll with the same bait. What is it about "truth" that you don't like?
Instead, you prattle on about indoctrination, ad Hominems, and swiftboating, while resorting to the same tactics yourself. If you are so superior to these indoctrinated sheep, why do you continue to waste your time on them? You even seem to indicate as much when you imply that the indoctrinated are so indoctrinated they don't even realize the level of their own indoctrination. How nice. They've drunk the cool aid, so leave them to die in peace.
In fact, almost every post you've made in this thread has been an attack on a broad group of Christian denominations, and in fact on Christianity itself. I must admit though, it is a refreshing change from your usual anti-semitic diatribes.
You frequently feel injured when I use terms to describe your writing like;
Propaganda: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person.
Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
Defend your use of the term "Cretinist", if it is not a bigoted term.
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LOL marbles we reach atheism from the same perspective using the same institution, the catholic church.
and funny I feel no guilt about it, because well I never read any thing in the new testiment that said I would get punnished for not believing as long as I did not pretend I did or act like a nazi.
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Dominck 367
"In our case, neither the neocons, religious leaders, nor the government demand proof of religious affiliation as a pre-condition to get a job, attend certain schools, travel, or own a business to name a few prerogatives."
but they do if you want to join the Attorney generals office.
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#368
It's the Tonnage Act which is the problem. look it up.
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#353
All,
Darwin did not believe that the theory of Evolution displaced a belief in God. While some folks (Dawkins et al) are atheists and scientists, the two do not mean the same thing.
Fundamentally science is merely a methodology that describes the universe around us and gives us a mechanism to elevate certain concepts to the level of general acceptance, based on the evidence available at the time. The Theory of Evolution / Origin of Species (or as Prof. Izzard would have it 'You're a F'ing Monkey, Mate) describes the way in which species may change (although most evolutionary biologists now support the Theory of Punctuated Equilibrium(Gould et al), a neo Darwinist concept that does not relate to 'Survival of the fittest'). It does not say why, or more importantly who, set the whole thing in motion. Dawkins argues that since there isn't a god, it isn't worth asking. God might argue that since (s)he does, Dawkins is mistaken.
There are conflicts between evolutionary theory and the literal interpretation of some translations of the bible. But that can said of many things that are generally not an issue, for example the Divine right of Kings as laid out in the St James Bible is not something that as an America, I take too seriously.
Which leads me to a small joke. Pat Roberts dies and goes to Heaven, where he is met at the Pearly gates by St Peter.
Pat: 'Can I come in?'
St Peter: 'Sure but you may want to consider some other options'
Pat: 'Why?'
St P: 'It's God'
Pat: 'God?'
St P: 'Yes. She's Black. And a Lesbian'
TTYL
Sam
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370, Jack.
Glad you liked my loony family.
How can we feel guilty about something that does not exist?
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354 not sure where you are coming from,(not being rude to you either) but one of the reasons for this number of blck people unmarried is because they face a huge problem with the police and the penal system being a tad bias.
The police can't find all the white rich kids on coke because they are too busy trolling the areas with black people.
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# 366 misuses the word "us". It is evident that that the poster speaks for no one. (Parenthetically, the choice of handles is often revelatory).
Again, ad-hominem attack is not responsive, but rather signifies a void of facts and reason.
_________________________
#367 The thought was was that, with manifest religious intolerance, the USA is heading toward the conditions that set up Franco's Spain. Your presence there was after that situation had been achieved.
The NeoCons, of course have a special softness for Israel and the evangelicals are indoctrinated to believe that their route to salvation lies in being nice to Israel.
_________________________
If, as, and when, the evangelicals present their views, our understanding may be advanced.
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The media molding of the American psyche has been well-illustrated above.
The extent of the special indoctrination of the fundamentalists/evangelicals has been indicated
and there has been no response
so, presumably, these facts are understood.
We may later, then, discuss their portent for the American polity.
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# 367
You may be unaware of the confessional requirements required of those who would teach in certain religious schools.
It was also revelatory that the Bush administration asked the American Heritage Institute for their files of job applicants in order to staff the federal administration.
Does this not suggest the Flange to you?
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In reply to #375, jacksforge:
I'm not entirely sure of the cause. I've also heard that culturally, going all the way back to slavery, a break down in the social fabric of "family" has never been repaired.
Starting with poverty, criminal enterprise has always been an appealing option for every subculture, regardless of race. This results in additional enforcement, which imprisons one out of every nine black men, one out of fifteen black adults. The cycles of crime, poverty, and jail is one that is hard to derail, but it is imperative that America must change course or risk a legal anarchy where everyone is a criminal. We can start by calling off the failed "war on drugs", and release about 1/2 the prison population in jail for using.
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The Barracuda. ?
Is this the kind of animal American people want / need / feel good about now?
After 8 years of separation from the world, and economic crisis for so many American families, is this the person for the future of the US and the world?
If the money America spent on WOmassDistraction was spent on the economy and stabalization instead, wouldn't that make you feel more proud, more safe in your skin?
Just a thought.
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ref #357
First listen to NPR because I like to hear all rational sides.
Which eliminates Bill Moyers (an idealogical fraud) and MSNBC which is in the tank for Obama.
My objection to PBS is that with all the alternatives, PBS serves no legimiate need. And as it is funded by the govt should not have a bias
Moyers has been exposed as a liar.
Oberman is a hate monger who makes Michale Savage look moderate.
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# 380
Yours is an un-American, non-commercial and subversive thought
you could only express it in a commie-liberal place like the BBC!
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Actually, the US Presidential race begs the question:
Are we born angels, descending into animals?
or
Are we born animals ascending into angels?
The optimist says: this is the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist says: I fear this to be true.
Welcome, anyway, to the world of American politics.
:)
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# 381
Unfortunately, PBS is not really fully "funded by the government" they plead for donations all the time.
Most disappointingly, at least one of their stations offered to slant the news in return for a bequest.
Now, if that happens within PBS, even the indoctrinated can imagine what the commercial stations are up to.
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379 I think you got it abut right there.
Especially the drug war which has been a undeclared race war.
Majerkin go off to zion man.
Where are these moyers exposed lies.
and on what issues was he lying.
Where is his bias been shown to not have come from rather partisan accusers.
He lets people say Israel behaves in a criminal way so you hate him.
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364, Xie.
You should stop watching so much television. You will get brainwashed.
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xie don't give up.
marbles stop provoking xie. you know he/she means well,and really all everywhere are a little brainwashed.
I think being nice to other countries and not starting war is better than fighting cause they looked at you, but I was brainwashed by a diplomat.
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"# 380
Yours is an un-American, non-commercial and subversive thought
you could only express it in a commie-liberal place like the BBC!"
Meaning? The BBC, where we can express our beliefs freely (and safely), is 'commie'? 'Liberal'? Being a swear word in the US?
V interesting, from a person who lives in a land of /allocating' 'feedom'!
I think, my American friend, that your use of the word : 'subversive' gives us all a clear idea of who you are.
ie "anyone who is not with us, is against us"
And you think the world is better for those sentiments?
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The amazing choice of Governor Palin as the Republican VP nominee by McCain is like a
well contrived surprise attack on a fortified position, throwing those manning it into great disarray.
As a well poised, relatively young woman, with executive experience as Governor of Alaska and of Evangelical persuasion, Palin is sure to make up for the 'chinks in the armour' of the war hero, McCain.
Congratulations to Senator McCain for his sagacity!
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To allmymarbles
I googled Xie Ming, it seems to be a fairly common name and they seemed to be male
To jacksforge
I do not quite understand what you found 'screwy' but never mind, I am vegan
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jf 340, I posed that question to bethpa. I never asked you. Why would I ask a question when I already know the answer.
Simple Simon
I have to give you credit SS, if you are nothing else, you are consistant. I've never seen anyone be more wrong about more things. You'd think just by the law of averages, you'd get something right once in a while. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I'm not going to answer you point by point it would be a waste of time anyway. But here are just a few examples.
You deliberately misquote me when you say or imply that I said Native Americans ARE primitive. I said that they were barbaric tribes when Europeans first settled the Western Hemisphere. I stick with that assessment. They did not become civilized until centuries later. I hold out less hope for Europe becoming civilized though. The latest in the Caucuses doesn't give one much to cheer about.
You have no idea of the quality of news on PBS. Their nightly news hour makes BBC's broadcast look like Headlines for Dummies. Yes PBS does use some footage from BBC and ITN in its 5 minute summary sometimes and it also occasionally will use a little in its setup pieces. But most of it is a discussion of different points of view by real experts in the topic under examination BBC could rarely hope to equal even on occasion.
You say Western Europe has no racial problems and more advanced civil legislation than the US? Are you kidding? Ask the Turks in Germany, the descendants of North Africans in France, the Latin Americans in Spain, and the Roma anywhere. And then know that something like the Zinedine Zidane incident which is typical of racial slurs at European sporting events where fans make animal noises to racially taunt Black players NEVER happens in the US.
Political assassinations based on race hatred not occurring in Europe? Have you forgotten so soon the assassination of Theo Van Gogh and Pin Fortuyn in Holland just a couple of years ago?
jf, try to get it right, it's a 2X4, not a 4x4. I know your expertise is iron, not lumber but even you must visit a lumber yard or see someone framing a house occasionally. Next time take a closer look.
Bill Moyers has returned to PBS now that he's made a bundle over at CBS. Nothing's perfect. BTW, Charlie Rose's personal opinions don't count. That's why he is such an outstanding interviewer. The Interview is about his guest, not about him. BBC could learn a lot from Rose. They could learn a lot even from a much weaker interviewer like Larry King.
fortmisery, the ostensible dispute that caused the Southern states to secede from the Union was that the North wanted to prohibit expansion of slavery into new territories. In reality, there was a very strong abolitionist movement in the North. Only a small percentage of Southerners actually owned slaves. But the entire economy of the South depended upon their nearly free labor to pick cotton. It was a legacy from colonial times when the British set it up that way. And of course, the hypocritical British supported the slave holding Confederacy hoping that a divided America would remain weak. If we had, we might just have stayed out of Europe's World Wars.
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In reply to #377, Xie_Ming:
"The media molding of the American psyche has been well-illustrated above."
If you are speaking of me (hard to tell when you are so coy), I'm not an American or a Brit. I do visit America quite often, and I've made a point to study it to excess. I also don't watch American TV, although I do succumb to a movie on DVD occasionally. The only news programs I can stomach is BBC, and in America PBS. I also balance my information by reading Al Jazeera, Pravda, and a few other alternatives. I loathe 24 hours news, and the degeneration of news reporting into the daily feeding frenzy, or story du jour. If I were to vote in America, I would be neither Democrat or Republican (which are mostly the same politic). I admire the America that was laid out in the Constitution, but I'm not so fond of how far it's strayed from that vision.
"The extent of the special indoctrination of the fundamentalists/evangelicals has been indicated and there has been no response so, presumably, these facts are understood."
Or, maybe, it is my hypothesis; There are no persons so narrowly defined by your caricature that post in this blog to offend, or perhaps your trolling lure is too plastic.
Here is an example on how far off you really are with your broad brush, you might read up on Evangelicals for Social Action.
Try also some real data on religion and politics from a place like Pew Research;
More Americans Question Religion's Role In Politics
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#388
I have to apologize and agree with you!
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Ref 371
"but they do if you want to join the Attorney generals office"
I don't know about the Attorney General's office, but I had a top secret security clearance and I don't recall anyone asking me about political party affiliation or religious convictions. Our government and society may not be perfect, but we are neither a fascist nor a Soviet-style nation.
Ref 376
My first visit to Spain was in 1945, and I assure you, that country was not a tourist resort at that time. My second and longer stay began in 1958.
I understand the analogy you are trying to establish, but I don't think the similarities are as evident as you suggest. There is no question that security measures have intensified since 9/11, and for good reason, but suggesting that those measures resemble the repression that existed in Franco's Spain is too much for anyone to swallow. In fact, I think insinuating the Bush Administration's actions are similar to those of the Falange is a distortion of reality.
I am not a fan of the Bush Administration, but when I voice my concerns or objections to their policies and actions I do it on the basis that they violate our Constitution, Civil Rights, and the values that our country stands for. I don't see the need to compare them to reprehensible dictatorships to make a point.
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In reply to #388, robzaba:
XM forgot to use the [sarcasm] tags... and is annoyed when posts that contain language derivative of Althusser are called out as Marxist propaganda, or at posts that use terms like "cretinist" in reference to Creationists are bigoted. Then, goes on to call anyone who does not agree with an ideology "indoctinated".
I find it hilarious that in post #250, XM predicted "Fellow traveler", "pinko" and "commie" will soon be trotted out by the usual ilk.
So I guess XM is the usual ilk.
But, probably not an American, and probably a socialist, but I wouldn't want to label anyone.
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chillo you didn't answer to the that race bit. care to?
I am not saying anything here just asking a question.
As to the screwy, not much more to say on that, it is not that I see you views as offensive just not quite there.
Bit like many people saying we evolved from monkeys.
We did not.
we evolved from a common ancestor .
ma
2x4 as opposed to 4x4, wow what an argument, guess no countering there.
Why if a 2x 4 will work would a 4 x4 not work better. come back with a little more than this you are lacking.
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392, Real.
I admire you for trying to talk sense to Xie. But what's the use? Either there is a problem with her circuitry, or she has an agenda that eludes us.
I personally don't care what she thinks but I am curious as to what is wrong with her. I notice that she gets worse with time.
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394 dom generally I agree and most of the state dept people I met were liberal in many ways , weird.
but there was a scandle (still is) over people getting hired due to party politics.
alberto's army.
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390, Chill0.
I think I started calling Xie "she" because someone else did. I wonder if its sex matters.
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and marcus how come when I went to the lumber yard to check was the 2x4 only
1 2/4 x 3 1/5.
looks like americans forgot how to measure, or are they just used to over inflating things.
(BTW it is standard these days "sizes" of lumber should come with quotation marks.)
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jf, wrong as usual.
A 2x4 is about 1 1/2" x 3 1/2", not what you said. Do you even know why it is called a 2x4? Do you know what it is commonly used for? What exactly do you know besides hammering out steel frogs?
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Jack.
Somewhere else you spoke of an evangelical reverginifying center. Were you kidding or is there really such a place? How do you reverginify? Do you just pretend it didn't happen? Seems like a waste of a friendliness.
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#365 Allmymarbles,
Some times when posts are made the veil is lifted,you are a gentle person.
marcus is a nut job.......
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401, staphylococcus aureus.
I can think of a really good use for a 2 x 4. No fair ducking.
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monkey error get this though I used a fraction not simplified 2/4 is the same as 1/2
oh engineer to no one.
it is called a 2x4 because in the old days of dimensional lumber it measured 2 x 4 inches , the length coming later after you cut it.
Sorry you really are not that clever and if you looked at old buildings you would find that "real 2x4" as they are called exist.
Mr Bronx you are all fluff
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Perhaps tomorrow, an evangelical will respond to the points about evangelical indoctrination listed above.
Until then, the intelligent Villa may take the defense of the Bush administration.
a) the "with us or against us" attitude is indoctrinated in evangelical reasoning.
b) all is "God" or the "Devil".
c) compromise, as syncretism, is abhorred.
d) Israel is good and all opponents of Israel, bad.
The other points concerning science, etc., are, of course, patently absurd to the educated.
Now, the last time I checked, if a US official "suspected" that you might be a terrorist, you suddenly found that you did not have your Constitutional rights.
There was also a call for neighbors to report suspicious activities, etc.
The fundamentalist mindset is intolerant by definition.
[Yes, I have lived in Spain, Argentina and Paraguay]
And I do see similarites with the Bush administration. (but also with the FBI under Nixon).
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In reply to #397, allmymarbles:
392, Real.
I admire you for trying to talk sense to Xie. But what's the use? Either there is a problem with her circuitry, or she has an agenda that eludes us.
I personally don't care what she thinks but I am curious as to what is wrong with her. I notice that she gets worse with time.
---
My focus in scholarship and teaching for my entire life has been to question all dogma in search of real truth. In a public square like this, where I would like to stretch out my intellectual legs, I object to posts that are crap on the path to truth. So indicative of the psychological pathology of such a poster are phrases such as "all X are Y" which smacks of those two things I've called out. So, again, is it the random ignorance of bigotry or the intelligent design of the propagandist? I find it equally outrageous that one might imply a poster on this blog wears a white sheet and belongs to a racist organization, then uses that organizations tactics to label other groups they seek to marginalize. I doubt an intelligent person would post such blatant, untruth, with zero research and no factual support without knowing what they are doing. Again, in this public square, I am very tolerant of people who don't know the truth, but are seeking the truth. I'm intolerant of people who egotistically claim to "know it all", and when challenged resort to diversions rather than support their false claims.
It may be that "this" is a way that some powerless people feel they are doing their duty by tearing down America, the West, democracy, and/or capitalism.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Marbles
Nah it's the born again now I am a vergin again clubs.
Though there are surgeons that will perform an operation.
Though they never explain how this would work on males.
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In reply to #402, allmymarbles:
It's nothing new. It happened all the time in medieval Spain. They also had certification before marriage, and were supposed to display the nuptial sheets the day after to prove consummation.
These days it is most likely a choice of young women who are "born again" and want to convey that "oh, so fresh" feeling to their mates. I believe that honesty is a better policy.
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#388
"'Liberal'? Being a swear word in the US?
V interesting, from a person who lives in a land of /allocating' 'feedom'!
I think, my American friend, that your use of the word : 'subversive' gives us all a clear idea of who you are.
ie "anyone who is not with us, is against us"
And you think the world is better for those sentiments"
__________________________
Yes, I have to agree with you!
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http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.24.98/virgin1-9851.html
here this will help in finding that which is no more.
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409, Jack.
Staphy thinks that Moslem girls are wrapped in veils and stowed in cupboards. I wonder why it is then that the doctors you speak of do a land-office business in Iran.
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409, Jack.
Why would they need repair doctors for men? Last I heard men didn't have hymens and could lie with impunity. You sly devils, you.
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majik You claim not to be racist. and we know that is a lie.
but because you are a liar we should ignore the fact that years of well respected journalism are behind Bill Moyers,and believe because you say , that he is a liar.
Fox Smocks.
Lied about what and don't print your lies show us the links to the Bill moyers shows you think he lied in.
Prove he lied. this is a British website with British laws govourning it,
SHOW ME WHERE BILL MOYERS LIED.
Go on.
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In reply to #408, MagicKirin:
You probably will get zero traction here justifying your claim with an expose' by FoxNews. It has no credibility with the liberal fringe, and almost zero with the anyone left of extreme right. Scott McClellan's latest book even implies that Fox's agenda is screened by the Administration, which would make it a propaganda tool for the Bush administration.
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Where to start?
Some general observations on Evolution, Science and religion.
My last post was censored either because of a tasteless joke or an Eddie Izzard quote. I apologize to the moderator.
Science is a methodology used to take ideas (known generally as hypotheses), test them against empirical, repeatable, measurable observations and when tested and generally accepted as such by peers within the scientific community, elevate them to the status of Theory.
Evolution as proposed in 'Of The Origin of the Species' by Charles Darwin describes such a mechanism which was for a long time the pre-eminent theoiry used to explain the change and diversity of living organisms. It does not say 'There is no God' and it does not claim to answer any question of why, or who. It has in fact been supplanted by a nuanced versions including 'Phyletic Gradualism' and 'Punctuated Equilibrium' which propose that rather than 'Survival of the fittest' evolution is a far more random and casual activity closely related to mass extinctions.
While Mr Izzard suggested that Darwin may have called his book 'You're a freaking Monkey, mate', or 'Your Dad's a freaking monkey' (only with a different word starting with f), Human beings are not descended from monkeys or Apes and as Jack observes Cladistic analysis indicates a common ancestor, not transformation from one to the other.
Darwin was devoutly religious, and indeed was troubled by his observations, mostly because of the literal interpretation of the Bible in vogue at the time. Gallileo had similar issues. Most modern scientists do not reject religion, rather defer that set of questions to the disciplines of Theology and Philosophy which, unlike science, cannot be measured. Some scientists rejectreligion, notably Dawkins, and argue that it isn't worth trying to answer the God question because no such thing exists. God, should (s)he exist, may disagree. Logically believing in God is a good hedge bet, so most people seem to do it in one form or another.
So the debate around evolution in the US mostly comes down to people who don;t understand what science is demanding that a hypothesis that cannot be tested (i.e. intelligent design' be taught as scientific theory, and demanding that poeple who spout this in science courses not be penalized. Thats a bit like going to a Seminary and claiming polygamy and free love are OK.
Peace be with you!
Sam
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401 as to this 1 1/2 x 3 1/2
for a 2x4
still seems over inflated.
you are now lucky if you even get that size.
I went out and measured a "2x4 and that is where I came up with 1 2/4 x 3 1/5 .
It wasn't even 3 1/2 inches. so much for standards.
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In reply to #409, jacksforge:
Though they never explain how this would work on males.
---
The only way I could think of that working would be electric shock treatments. It's another way to wipe the slate clean.
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As the 21st Century began, Hindu, Israeli, American, Hindu and Islamic fundamentalisms became evident.
In each, the mass of adherents sought refuge from the insecurities of the rapidly changing social and economic conditions that surrounded them.
Fundamentalists want everybody to conform to their beliefs, both in religious and in political matters.
Fundamentalists need a basic scripture or set of rules, be it the Torah, Bible, Koran, Communist Manifesto, Little Red Book, or Fuhrer’s orders.
Leading individuals and inner-groups controlling fundamentalist worship add additional motives-nationalist, political, racist, organizational and personal.
The action programs differ, depending on the motives of the leadership, but they count on indoctrinated, obedient authoritarians to do as they are led to do.
Since we are concerned here with the situation in America, we should concentrate on that manifestation of the common phenomenon
and examine how it may apply to the VP candidate from Alaska.
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414 I was just about to say how this is the case.
though I was going to say all men are virgins when talking to a born again Christian.(if they are smart)
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Mucus Orallyanus,
Where to start Charlie Rose is an ok interviewer, at best. Larry Ling is weak and panders to his guests. If you want to see a real interview try watching Paxman on newsnight, or look him up on Youtube. He savages left and right in equal opportunity and does not allow people to go off question of blather. He once famously asked a minister the same question over and over with variations on 'Yes or no will do'.
British politicians have to be interviewed by him because otherwise they are labelled as wimps. Americans generally run away unless they over rate their debating abilities, Anne Coulter and Ralph nader being notable examples of people who made themselves look foolish. I'd love to see him interview McCain and Obama, Biden and whats her name.
With regard to Americas business being business. I may be being pedantic but that would leave Americas altruism to be altruism, its culture to be culture etc.
Americas purpose is the right to life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not just business. If all we did was work then who would be happy other than sad, pathetic folks who count their money and think of that as achievement. I pity them.
Ironically on this one even if you were right, you'd still be wrong. The most enlightened businesses now stress flexible arrangements for families, volunteerism, altruism, arts programs and other initiatives to broden their work forces minds, encourage lifting the community and the underpriviledged andexpanding your experience. They have yielded a huge increase in employee loyalty and productivity from these altruistic programs. For business to excel, it has to be more than business.
As for everyone getting the same opportunity in America, that is patent nonsense. If you have money, and more importantly your parents do, you get a great start and can achieve anything. Look at George Bush. If you have nothing and your parents have nothing then you have to exceptional to get out of poverty, like Obama. The only people I know who don't get this like in Mini McMansions in New Jersey exurbs or similar who are living off the degree their parent bought them and want to feel better than others and need some sense of achievement from their narrow, unhappy, lonely, bitter lives. I fell sorry for them.
Sad Sam
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ref #411
Liberal is nota swear word but intolerance is something is something to be scared of.
Many liberals NPR commentators, Alan Colmes Ellis Hennigan don't want to censor or malign others.
But Keith Obermann, Ward churchill the Duke 88, Jimmy Wales don't want moderates or conservatives to have a voice.
you might want to consider that
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Jack, mystically, a mention of "mind wipe" therapy to renew male virginity is moderator material. :)
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Real.
So, in essence, you are trying to determine whether Xie has a hidden agenda or a troubled mind.
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422. At 10:40pm on 30 Aug 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:
Mucus Orallyanus,
Where to start Charlie Rose is an ok interviewer, at best. Larry Ling is weak and panders to his guests. If you want to see a real interview try watching Paxman on newsnight, or look him up on Youtube. He savages left and right in equal opportunity and does not allow people to go off question of blather. He once famously asked a minister the same question over and over with variations on 'Yes or no will do'.
Have to agree. Personally I have never heard an American interviewer worth his or her salt for the last 30 years.
No fan of Paxman but to give them their due leading British journalists are can interview without putting on a show or being hopelessly supine.
For example, everytime you see Condelezza Rice, or some serious US political heavyweight, being "interviewed" one wonders if one is back in 17th century france with some noble condescending to answer a question
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In reply to #420, Xie_Ming:
"Fundamentalists want everybody to conform to their beliefs, both in religious and in political matters. "
Pattern: (All) Fundamentalists want ...
What is the difference between forced conversion, Dhimmitude, evangelism, and proselytization?
I was not aware of "thought police" in America where your religious beliefs are public knowledge, and in fact, for the record, EEOC makes inquiry into or discrimination of beliefs a crime.
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422 Sad Sam again you show a very christian spirit..
very generous.
BTW all majerkin is trying to slander Bill moyers again.
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OMG - I totally thought this blog was about who would make better U.S. President?!? I was, like, totally wrong.
But please, let's continue to discuss subversive tactics, racism, marxism, and...wait for it...2x4's!!!
Shall I set up a link for a web-page wherein I collect donations of 2x4's and the like so that I came bulid my American dream home, without taking a government backed-loan? And then build it in an evangelical neighborhood completely void of any, ahem, native americans or the like?
Call me an idealist, but I thought we are supposed to be fighting for the America spouts freedom and equality for all. Part of that means looking out for one another, working hard, and sharing with those less fortunate. We must dispense with the "me vs you" attitude. I personally don't care if you watch PBS, CNN or the BBC. It comes down to basic human compassion, which seems to be lost if a swirling torrent of politics and speeches and remembrances of previous wars.
I wish you all health, happiness and peace.
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#418, jacksforge, I hate to disappoint you, but
the problem is not that 2x4s are smaller now.
Some time ago, Dick Cheney and his goons
masqueraded as Santas on Christmas Eve,
and went around swapping everybody's tape
measures with new ones.
So, you see, it's the "same as it ever was."
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420, Xie.
I spent three weeks with 13 evangelical ministers. Only one of them fit the defination of zealot. I figure that across America one in 13 people is a nut of some kind, so I can't attribute this particular nut's zeal to religion.
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No, I think it was the mention of that other news organization that Scott McClellan outed that sparked the mods. Maybe they have lawyers who surf the net looking for extra money.
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simon I support your effort but Charlie rose is OK.Non confrontational but OK.
I agree that american polititians get it real easy.
"spitting Image" was a class show that hit all hard and below the belt.
And if you were not on you were not in.
makes snl look as bad a sit is.
But " Question Time"
a bbc show was brilliant.
robin day or snow, who was that.