Obama's Iraq shift?
It seems to me that Obama might be able to execute a reasonably cost-free transition of view on Iraq (which seems to have begun) provided that he is open about changing his mind.
The Republicans are after him, of course, but the American people have changed their views again and again - backing the war with great gusto at the beginning, before moving against it.
It would be tiresome though if the Obama people claim there is no change. Obama might well be favoured as well by the tougher conditions in Afghanistan.
Meanwhile, a colleage of mine sends a shot from rural Montana which I find strangely beautiful, but which will concern those who organised the softening of Mr Obama's gun position. Seems not everyone is grateful...
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Interesting sign - very common sentiment.
The issue is not what the candidates say, but what the people believe they will do once they attain power. After all, the one thing that is a common experience for virtually all Americans is that the deeds of their politicians after elections are rarely consistent with the statements prior to elections.
It is apparent to many people that Obama is going through his "say what is likely to get you the votes" stage, and what he is saying is inconsistent with views he has often expressed in the past (Israel/Palestine, gun control, Iraq, gov't eavesdropping, etc., etc.) The trick, of course, is to be able to discern whether he's had an actual change of position or if he's just pandering to various interest groups.
(I'm not just bashing Obama: McCain is behaving the same way.)
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It only takes one person to put up a catchy sign, although there are no doubt many people in rural Montana who will like it. It's nothing. These people wouldn't vote Democratic anyway; let them have their little joke.
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Having transitioned from long-shot unknown candidate to presumptive nominee, Obama must necessarily become more cautious in his approach to difficult problems such as Iraq. Nobody wants a reckless president, so this is reassuring.
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Obama is moving to the center far more quickly
than McCain, and is more easily able to modify
positions, having not voted for the war.
And, many people (perhaps just the press,
but perhaps many more) are willing to let
Obama change his positions with very little
criticism. I wonder why this is so?
McCain seems to be off-balance, having to
please the right-wing as well as trying to take
the center. This probably has to do with his
limited funding sources, and is manifesting
itself in all sorts of weird ways, including foreign
and energy policy. It's hard to say that he
is "modifying" his positions when goes back
and forth between them.
And, McCain is practically mute on the economy,
as if some miracle in that regard will save him.
I wonder what the odds are in Vegas on
this election?
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Seems to me that Mr Obama is following Mrs Clinton's proposals . . .
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Obama would be wise to articulate his hopes and intentions re: Iraq but avoid laying out specifics. The U.S. will have less and control and even influence in Iraq as tim passes, so any specific plan or timetable announcced now is subject to being made impossible in the next several months.
Obama should say, in effect, that he will withdraw U.S. troops as rapidly as possible on a schedule in keeping with keeping Iraq out of the hands of terrorists or Iranian surrogates.
As for Montana and guns: The sign displays a basic ignorance of law and the Constitution. In any case, the problem isn't guns in a Big Empty Place like Montana, the problem is guns in America's cities. I could care less if Montana hunters have guns, but I do not want local gang members and others thugs to have guns. I don't care what the Constitution says.
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We can stay in Iraq forever if NATO is willing to carry the water. Bush pulled US troops out of Afghanistan and left the War Lords in charge of fighting the Telaban while US troops went off to protect our ally Israel. This must be true since control of Iraqi Oil and the Persian Gulf was not and is not our primary interest.
Since US allies have no problems at home other than Belasconi reasserting Fascism and having all the Roma population fingerprinted as criminals while he threatens to remove any Italian Supreme Court judge who does not rule in his favor dismissed. His actions are so blatant until Sylvia Pogoli has spoken out against them twice on NPR.
The troops feel safe because they have guns. This is what the National Rifle Association says: Guns make us safe and every red blooded American must possess one, even those in the incubators.
Afghanistan is a piece of cake that is why we left NATO in secondary charge to mop up. They complain because they are lazy and don't want to die, I mean fall in the cause of US, mean, world freedom, right to choose. Safety is a choice not a right.
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Obama has changed several stands from his views during the primary.
That is no different from many canidates including McCain. However Obama has potrayed this myth on how he is an agent of change.
How will the media report this since almost all are in the tank for him?
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re: #4 gunsandreligion
". . . odds . . . on this election?"
Probably just as good as, possibly better than, Vegas, intrade.com provides daily odds, history, and trends.
As of COB today, Obama is at 65.1, McCain at 31.1 to win. (These represent predicted _likelihoods_ on a 100 point scale, NOT pollling results.)
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re: #5 David_Cunard wrote:
"Seems to me that Mr Obama is following Mrs Clinton's proposals . . ."
Interesting observation.
It might even be a purposeful Obama campaign strategy: Think of it as all of Clinton's pluses (if you liked her to begin with) but without all of the "baggage" such as Bill, ruthless ambition, sleaze, etc., etc.
Obama was considered even more liberal than Clinton: becoming more Clinton-like in policies may be seen as a "run to the middle".
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Good thing there's a flag in the photo so we know which country it is.
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justcorbly, you said:
" I could care less if Montana hunters have guns, but I do not want local gang members and others thugs to have guns. I don't care what the Constitution says."
You will be pleased that the SC interpretation
of the second amendment does not guarantee
the rights of "gang members and other thugs"
to have guns. The court simply said that
a blanket firearm ban, including all residents
in their homes, was too broad to be constitutional.
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Well it boils down to whether you believe what Obama says...or what he said. What did he say? Can he be trusted? Can he be understood? If he is going to begin abandoning Iraq, what will do if things get worse? What if the remaining US troops at one point get caught up in the middle of a regional war due to a power vacuum we create when we leave? What's the point of sending more troops to Afghanistan if we are going to allow the Taleban and al Qaeda sanctuary in Pakistan, free to cross the border at will to attack when there's an opportunity and retreat to safety when there isn't? What's he going to do about that and the fact that Pakistan is nominally an ally? That's a question neither President Bush nor John McCain addressed. Notice how effective Columbia's attack on the FARC was in its presumed sanctuary in Ecuador. Does anyone care if Ecuador or Hugo Chavez got angry because their borders couldn't protect their communist terrorist allies. Obama has already said he would consider attacking Pakistan. Does he mean it?
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We supported a guy who was going to end the war in Iraq, wrest Washington free from lobbyists and special interesta, protect our constitutional rights of privacy, etc., etc.
Where is that man? Last I heard he was romancing the religious right (anathema to liberals) and having second thught on Iraq.
Well now I am having second thoughts on Obama, who seems to be promising anything to anybody. He is making a grave error. He is not going to get the conservatives (they already have a republican candidate), and there is a real danger that the hard-core base that was responsible for his meteroric rise will become disillusioned.
The person they supported was an inspiring reformer, not a run-of-the-mill political opportunist. They gave him millions of dollars to represent them. Senator Obama, you are not representing them. You have forgotten where your duty and loyalty lies. And you are paying for it. The polls don't give you that much of an edge.
Go back to being a crusader. Go back to being elitist. That is what got you where you are, not this likewarm pap you are feeding everybody. Remember, if you fail us, we can always stay home in November.
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Justin,
It seems that Obama has changed his attitude regarding Iraq.
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Further to #14. Look what happened to Joe Lieberman, Senator Obama, when he was disloyal to his constituency. He lost the primary.
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allmymarbles
"The person they supported was an inspiring reformer, not a run-of-the-mill political opportunist."
You mean the illusion they supported.
"They gave him millions of dollars to represent them."
What suckers. A politician is a politician is a politician. Why would anyone more than 11 years old expect anything different?
"Go back to being a crusader."
You mean give us back our illusion. Too bad, the election hasn't been held yet but you found out in advance that he isn't the second coming. If the day comes when he is President, be prepared for a "revelation." He's not what you think he is.
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Both Obama and McCain are moving right now, will the leftists and progressives keep putting up with this (as they always do), or will they support someone who truly represents their interests?
Democrats can't blame everything on the republicans, what good has come out of the democrat controlled congress?
I was going to post a link to an interesting 5 part video from Nader's running mate here that shows an example of this blame game but somehow my post keeps getting rejected. If you're interested, you can search online for "Matt Gonzalez-The Dems Complicity in the War Pt. 1 of 5"
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#17, Marcus. I am sorry to say that you are right about politicians in general, and probably Obama in particular.
But there have been exceptions. I think Ross Perot was one and Adlai Stevenson was another (probably both too honest to get elected). As for New York, the city where I was born, Fiorello LaGuardia was an outstanding example of an honest politician. I can speak with certainty because he was well-known personally to members of my family. When he died he left an estate of $12,000. What politician today is in that bracket.
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"But the American people have changed their views again and again - backing the war with great gusto at the beginning, before moving against it."
No! That's not true!! What are you thinking!!? They backed it in droves in the beginning (largely due to 9/11), but as it continued, their support for it dropped like a led balloon!! This statement from you makes it seem that every time something bad happened in Iraq, the American people's support for the war dropped, but every time something good happened, it sky rocketed!! The American people's support for what I would deam to be an illeagle war is not a yo-yo!! They're smarter than that!! I tell you Justin! We may be ignorant, but we're not as dumb as you sometimes perceve us to be!!
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#10. peterm99 "think of it as all of Clinton's pluses . . . without all of the "baggage" such as Bill, ruthless ambition, sleaze, etc., etc." Wouldn't you say that Mr Obama has ruthless ambition since he apparently has always wanted to be president? The sleaze factor might include Jeremiah Wright and all that went with that episode, not to mention securing a mortgage at a very favourable rate. When stripped of his veneer of decency I submit that he's made of the same material as any other candidate and wears Teflon much as did President Reagan. In fact, his Republican opponent/s may yet call him "the Teflon candidate". I know it's no good crying over spilt milk, but at least with Mrs Clinton we knew of most of the skeletons in her closet.
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David_C, he's really quite a little tank,
isn't he? Everything bounces off, and his
suit always looks pressed.
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re: #21 David_Cunard
I agree that Obama often seems to have Teflon skin. I think that the press has been leery of really going after him in the past (due perhaps to fears of being called racist?), but he's been taking more and more criticism as time goes on.
There's a difference between ambition and ruthless ambition. Clinton's ambition resulted in "scorched earth" pursuit of her goal: willingness to torpedo Obama's chances in Nov. for her own purposes, reports of Rep style dirty tricks, reports of threats of withholding political favors if people didn't support her, serious intimidation attempts on superdelegates, etc. I can't say for sure that Obama didn't use similar tricks, threats, etc., but, if he did, I haven't heard of it.
IMO, Obama's sleaze pales in comparison; he's like a small-time crook compared to a Mafia boss. Consider: Clinton's fundraising illegalities for which her people are being prosecuted, bundlers for the Clinton political machine being fugitives from the law, contributions to HRC from recipients of WJC's pardons, plus a whole bunch of other stuff from Arkansas and Clinton's presidency which were investigated (e.g., commodity futures), found not to be prosecutable for lack of adequate evidence or other reasons, but, as I read the reports, even if not illegal, many of them were highly unethical, or, at best, questionable.
I will freely admit that I dislike both Clintons much more than I dislike Obama, but I truly believe that, flawed as Obama is, he is a saint compared to HRC (and Bill). Would he make a better President? I really couldn't say. Lack of ruthlessness may actually hinder his performance in DC compared to HRC.
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I don't know if the picture is "strangely beautiful", but it is pretty cute. It says more about the store owner than it does about Obama.
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allmymarbles wrote:
Further to #14. Look what happened to Joe Lieberman, Senator Obama, when he was disloyal to his constituency. He lost the primary.
And he won the general election despite the hate and lie filled campaign funded by George Soros.
Liberman actually knows he is supposed to represent the State of CT not the democratic party of CT.
Ned Lamont was a joke who did not have a clue and he was exposed as a pawn of Soros.
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So Obama is now bad because his policies might be related to the actual current world situation - shame on such a politician!
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#12:
>>"You will be pleased that the SC interpretation of the second amendment does not guarantee the rights of 'gang members and other thugs'
to have guns."
I know that. But, felons already cannot own guns. How effective has that been? We need a way to keep guns out of cities, period.
The NRA and other wackos and gun fetishists want to preserve their ability to fondle their weapons at the cost of allowing urban kids to have access to automatic weapons.
It comes down to keeping guns out of cities or allowing people in the middle of nowhere to shoot deer and get a gun buzz. The ability of Montanans to own a hunting rifle is directly responsible for gun deaths in every American city.
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I have two points.
Firstly, Obama is five points up in Montana according to the latest Rasmussen poll.
http://tinyurl.com/3epc66
Of course, if Obama wins by five points in Montana I will eat my entire wardrobe - but it gives hope for Obama for other nearby states this time round (e.g. North Dakota), and for the future. That is the real value of Obama's 50 State Strategy, you see - contesting places where Democrats are traditionally seen as some creature from the black lagoon, but have been constantly betrayed by their Republican representatives.
Secondly, the curfuffle over his so-called 'move to the centre' is nonesensical. I am sick of the Huffington Post and the kind of liberals who post on it screaming that Obama has betrayed them. Obama was chosen by the Left because he was not overtly connected to the hated DLC (hiss! boo!), whereas Clinton was the wife of its most famous member. However, Obama was never in fact their guy. His support of the FISA bill, as he explains it, is very reasonable . He has constantly supported the death penalty for certain offences (wrongly in my opinion), and has always held what is probably the majority opinion on gun control amongst the American public - limitations on some firearms in some situations, but not a blanket ban - which he still espouses now. As for the Office of Faith Based Initiatives... why exactly is handing money to faith-related organisations anathema if it really is the best use of taxpayers money, and as long as certain standards are kept to?
This brings me onto my third point, which peterm99 put his finger on - people in his base are fearful not of what Obama has done, but of what he might do. If Obama were to make a speech tomorrow confirming that, although he supports Roe v. Wade, he wants there to be fewer abortions since he finds them morally troubling, that would be seen as 'moving to the centre', as it is the kind of thing a Republican might say.
Hoping that we won't have yet more of the Democratic Party flaking off into the 'none of the above, but mighty sullen' column,
/-_
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this is exactly why I am voting for Obama.
things change.
I was also the only democrat I know who was into the surge.
(but wish it had started on day one of the war)
But then I was not playing politics with war as GW was(mission accomplished)
(lower troop levels.
Obama has always said he was open to the situation on the ground. and always said that was what one should respond to.
It was Clinton who said firm no questions withdrawl on a time line, because the american people favoured that.
They had started this was for vengence.
When too many american soldiers got killed they said Oh my(no concern for civilian Iraqis.)
Clinton promised whatever was highest n the polls.
The hamilton baker report said to concentrate on diplomacy.
He supports that.
Most of what he supports was in the Hamilton baker report.
The problem he has is those who for reasons of the heart believe all stop should be called on this war, no matter what the reality on the ground.
I support him for not saying we will be out immediately.
Good on Obama .
If you lot could understand what people say not what you think they said , and listened to that well trained lawyers mind phrase things, you will see that you have your assumptions about what he said wrong.
Now with some posters out there that is a normal occurance , in fact it would seem strange otherwise.
I must say comprehension seems to be a lost skill,
maybe learning another lost skill will help recover the lost skill of comprehension.
I suggest blacksmithing.
Go back look at the speaches and don't put words in his mouth.
As for clintons plan. RUN.
J mCain 's surge was not a bad Idea.
he was not the only surge supporter.
At all times Obama has had to talk down the stay to get it right talk and talk up the clinton withdrawl.
He changed. did clinton?
he responded to the ground she responded to the voters.
He is still getting flak for not pinning down a policy before he has had a chance to read all the reports that he is not privalaged to.
but carry on , DC I understand,as a clinton supporter.
The rest are just glad you got more fodder to make up stuff over.
America can leave Iraq, eventually.
like obama once said ,it is not about having troops there ,more about if people continue to shoot at them.
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Right or wrong, The fact is that Americans are not going to give up their guns anytime soon and Obama is right to soften his stance on them - it would be pointless to do otherwise.
If school shootings do not pursuade people to give up their guns then nothing will. The Democrats need to take guns out of their campaign issues for the next twenty years at least.
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#23. peterm99 My point was that HRC and BHO are very similar - the Clintons have been in public and political life far longer than the Obamas. You paint the former in very broad strokes, much of it hearsay. There are many who don't care for alpha women, equating them with the female canine. Give him time and no doubt he'll catch up; she has a fifteen year headstart.
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Obama's 16 months to return US military gives him a lot of wiggle room. No candidate has so far been willing or able to bring the only available peace plan.
Radical Islamists (Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.) want God to rule the nations. If the US wanted that, we could sit together to correct our understanding of God's word.
A bbc story for comment today is: a senior judge says Sharia Law could be used in England and Wales if both parties agree.
God has made a way for peaceful correction of Sharia Law. The primary word of God to Muhammad was say, you stand on nothing till you observe the Torah, Gospel and all God sent to His prophets. Believe in all holy books God has sent down. Qur'an 42:14-16; 5:68, 69; 5:45-51; 2:136; 3:85; 3:56; 2:41,42,64,125. That is what Jesus said about 600 years earlier but the people did not follow. He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4
Radical Islamists hate the west (US, Britain) because we do not fight indecency in our society, they do. Note: under Taliban there was no opium production. God's law is strict (but no amputations), but it is a protection to keep others from following the way destructive to society. Many people in the world dress modestly, godly and hold their integrity in a distinguished way. The people of the west are immodest in dress and attitude... media and conversations are often openly of sexual activity. Abortion, adultery, theft, rebellion and dishonor to parents are common behavior in the west. God wants us to REPENT, and be saved, and so do the radical Islamists.
Tell your favorite candidate you want a godly government. It would only take a clarifying statement in the US Constitution that we were formed a Republic to be run with godly principles, the word of God. This will stop Islamic rebellion against the west. All nations who are looking for a constitution can adopt the US model since it is simple and easy to understand and to impliment. That is an effective and sustainable foreign policy to end the wars.
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"It seems to me that Obama might be able to execute a reasonably cost-free transition of view on Iraq (which seems to have begun) provided that he is open about changing his mind."
Wrong again, Justin! "reasonably cost-free transition of view?" He's not changing his mind on it-he is keeping to the same view he has always had!! I must say I'm a bit surprised at the fact that you seem to have apparently been swept up into believeing all these Republican atacks!! Obama has always said that we should get out of Iraq as soon as possible, and he has vowed to do so (should he be elected), carefully, so as not to inflict anymore problomes and difficulties on our troops/the Iraquee people then necessary!! To be honest, I don't even know how this asertion got so much steam in the first place! It was probably because he reiterattes his position more offten and directs it toward Mccain instead of Clinton, so people naturally scrutinise it more.
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Since whoever becomes the next President of the USA has a lot to say about what happens to both the world and my country of Canada, I closely followed the "primary season". Now I feel saturated, as if I had ingested too much caffeine. I believe that I will take the summer off for a personal detoxification from American political events . I'll start paying closer attention after the Labour Day weekend.
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I'm a realist in some ways on gun control.
I say let hunters hunt, but think. I could be one. and my eyesight ids not so good.
I think it's great but due to not having any access to an optician my prescription could be wrong, But I can still shoot.?
Is that a dear or some one with a big coat?
hell bag it.
Seriously Gun control cannot happen until the debate has been framed in a sensible manner for long enough that peopel start to listen.
I have buddies that voted for GW twice(WHAT?) but the debate about him has gone on long enough now ,with some criticism ,that they are hearing that they were conned (and are pissed).
the media has stopped giving the GOP the free ride they had at the beginning of this war, infact right up to the time the media figured out the people of america were getting suspicious.
if the gun debate could be framed with in a nation of people not constantly in a state of fear then maybe it could work and maybe a sensible solution to inner city crime could approached.
As to the knife crime in the UK the US has some knife crime as well but that is not a gun so it is not as big news.
Now a kicking is what one should worry about in the UK.
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No rash I see at least one here comprehends comprehension.
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#28 Slashdashunderscore
#29 Jacksforge
Enjoyed you comments. Obama is not on the far left. He's a centrist. He hasn't really changed. Yes, he's a politician but he is also a pragmatist and a thinker. Thinkers consider reality and change their positions when reality clashes with their ideas. They don't grab an
idea and hold on into insanity. We've had that for eight years. Do we want more?
I think that people do need to read more of what Obama is saying. I have listened to his speeches and also read them in transcript. I'm very visual so I like seeing rather than hearing. It helps me to read what he actually says (not what the media or others say he says).
The only problem with the faith based initiative is the way it has been handled under the Bush administration. People working in the trenches know where the need is highest as well as how best to provide for it. It was the local churches during Katrina that stepped up, provided immediate aid for anyone, not just their members, long before FEMA and the Red Cross showed up.
Our government tends to waste money and not provide adequately for those in need. Most faith based organizations cannot afford waste. They live on cheese parings and count on volunteers. Every possible dime has to go to the work they do.
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jacksforge, #35, I think you're right, the debate
about gun control is too much about guns and
not about root causes of violence.
Here is one article about illegal immigration
which brings up some issues about how gangs
are exploiting "sanctuary cities:"
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/mac_donald04-13-05.htm
Until we get control of these organized gangs,
we're going to see rampant crime committed
with guns, knives, and baseball bats.
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#32:
>>"It would only take a clarifying statement in the US Constitution that we were formed a Republic to be run with godly principles, the word of God."
Only two things wrong with that: First, it's a lie. Second, it would quickly lead to a theocratic dictatorship.
The U.S. was -- in part, and only in part -- founded to allow you to believe or not to believe in whatever god you choose. But, it was not founded to allow a group of people, even the majority, to decide what principles everyone must live by.
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'I shot a bullet into the air
and where it fell I did not care.'
Where I live some people have enjoyed shooting off guns into the air on holidays, especially New Years for some odd reason. So, we now impose strict penalties for this because neighbors of these shooters have had bullets come through the tops of their heads while they were outside, enjoying the evening.
I doubt we will have a nation wide gun ban any time soon but I think states and cities should be able to impose reasonable restrictions on who can have guns, how they are acquired and how they are used.
Tasers anyone? I read that Taser parties for women in the US is a growing industry!
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#25. Yes, Lieberman won the election. But what you neglect to mention was that he won because of the cross-over republican vote. Democrats hate him -quite rightly.
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MarieDevine (#32): which god are you talking about?
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allmymarbles (#14): You say about Obama "if you fail us, we can always stay home in November".
You should instead vote for Nader, someone that truly reflects your views: "a guy who was going to end the war in Iraq, wrest Washington free from lobbyists and special interests, protect our constitutional rights of privacy, etc., etc.", then "an inspiring reformer, not a run-of-the-mill political opportunist. ".
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Aqua girl we had one where some soldier in the UK fired in the Bisley army range. only to hit a kid in his garden shed 7 miles away.
keep up the struggle girl we love ya.
As to tasers, we just had a case in Eugene where Officers tasered some anti pesticide protester 3 times because they did not like his free speech .(or the sprayer that he was using to spray water which is apparently more illegal than spraying chemicals.)
quite a big case locally where the police are up against it. but then our poLICE auditor is being hounded by the poLICE as well.
so I'm for tasers. next time if 30 in the crowd had tasers the cops would be screwed.
BBC mods .I am not condoning illegal activity here. It is legal to prevent an officer breaking the law.
GnR
my eye's were opened a little by watching Bowling for Colombine where he did a comparison between the US and Canada. finding they have a rather high gun ownership per capita but with very few gun crimes.
The point of that film was not as many think NO GUNS, it was NO GUNS FOR AMERICANS.
They cannot be trusted.
I know someone who shot at a tweeker. got away with it.(lucky he did not kill him) .
In court, despite the fact that the tweeker was not heading the car straight at him.
Last year the cops in Eugene shot a boy with a knife.
He was standing alone outside with no chance of hurting anyone.
he brandished a knife. They shot him 5 times.
they could have stood back but they had the guns.
No policeperson was charged.
It is the american way.
the origional complainent was the mother of the child worried because he was refusing to take the medacine given to him by his doc(american healthcare).
the medicine made him more violent.
the cops overreacted. again.
I believe that the american constitution allows guns fro all but personally think the cops should not be given any.
the same cops had the taser out and were threatening a NAKED cyclist.
as if they were armed.
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re: #31 David_Cunard
I think "hearsay" is much too weak a term. There has been a lot of information presented in various reports, news stories, etc., even court testimony, that, while maybe not rising to the level necessary to convict in a court of law, document what I believe a reasonable and unbiased person would conclude to be highly unethical behavior.
I am firmly convinced that all politicians, as a class, are highly unethical at best, and, much more often than is made public, commit criminal acts as it suits their purposes. The fact that most are not charged and convicted speaks more to their connections that can limit thorough investigation, make evidence disappear, intimidate/buy off potential witnesses, etc., etc. than their sterling character.
While there are undoubtedly exceptions, I'd be surprised if I couldn't count them on the fingers of one hand. I don't believe Obama to be one of the exceptions; certainly not Clinton or McCain. Lack of ethics knows no gender, racial, religious, or any other boundaries.
"Alpha women", etc. ??? That's a cheap ploy that's trotted out quite frequently, much like calling someone an anti-semite or racist, usually as a means to denigrate opposing views or to intimidate their expression. I'm disappointed to find you using it.
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Davidcunard
Thanks for that reference (#86 health etc) to the article re: Bush. It was very well worth reading.
Though, I dislike Bush and think that he has done great damage to the US and to the world, I sometimes feel sorry for him. He is so much like the little boy who wants to show dad that he is just as good or probably better than dad. I think he is limited in intellect and not willing to do the work necessary to be the leader he would like to believe he is. Reality testing, anyone?
Also, he came to office with the burden of a cadre of political cronies who had great financial expectations as well as some axes to grind.
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#38Gunsand religion
Thanks for the reference. I try to go to all the sites people recommend. It is a great learning experience for me.
The so called root causes of violence are so complex. Is it inherent in our genes? I feel my self to be a peaceful, nonviolent person but I also know that I could be capable of great violence under certain circumstances, such as a lethal threat to those I love.
Is violence so rooted in our culture that we can never weed it out?
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#44, jacksforge, it would be interesting to
see if there was some way to measure stress
levels in different cities in the US and Canada.
People perceive things differently depending
upon their stress level and the training relevant
to dealing with that stress.
I don't know what the situation is like in
Eugene - here in Salinas the police are
under enormous stress, and they occasionally
overreact, but on the whole, they seem
to perform well.
The Salinas police have a very strict selection
process, because they know what the stress
levels are. But, I know that in other towns,
the selection process for officers is not nearly
as stringent, and I actually hear more stories
about police officers overreacting in those
relatively quiet towns than here, which is
on the front lines of the gang problem.
As far as differences between Canadians
and Americans, it could just be stress levels.
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#32. MarieDevine: "Tell your favorite candidate you want a godly government." Absolutely not! Governments need to be entirely devoid of faith-centred actions and legislation. Although England and Wales have an Established church, the Church of England (Scotland is Presbyterian) faith-based initiatives are not present in British legislation - and the US ensures that there should be no direct relationship between religion and the state.
With regard to Sharia law in the UK, the judge concerned spoke only of 'financial and marital disputes', a report which can be found here. The Prime Minister said "We think that British law should be based on British values and determined by the British Parliament." It is preposterous that one group of people should have their own set of laws - if that were to become the case, perhaps French and Romanian residents in Britain would demand to use the Napoleonic Code to settle their differences or African immigrants may want tribal or Zulu law. As for the West dressing immodestly, consider that Adam and Eve were naked and only used a leaf for coverage, allowing much more to be seen.
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pterm99, David_C:
The further up one goes in America, the
less competence is apparent. My theory is
that this is the combination of 2 principles,
the Peter Principle, and the "Pyramid Principle,"
which the idea that promotion occurs more
rapidly near the top of a hierarchy than
at the base or the middle, because there
are fewer candidates to promote.
Politicians are at the top. What did we
expect to find there?
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Addendum to my #46
Political cadre: Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove allowed way more power than these offices should have been allowed.
I can't remember a vice-president with more 'presence' than Cheney. Sometimes I wondered who was actually holding the office of POTUS.
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G nR . it has to be said the Eugene finest is a joke.
And not all of the US is like that,I know.
They are under stress but most of it self started.
the levels of animosity in this town(notorious for hippies and medical cards) is HUGE.
we have had more than one killing by cops that no one thought fair.
we have had the mayor and poLICE block an independant auditor for years.
Finally it came out that we have had a couple of officers (if not more)who have been
raping and taking "favours" for years and the police harassed any one who made a complaint, we got an auditor.
Who has since been the victim of poLICE pressure.
The one officer went down for less time than anyone else would.
Others were implicated in the coverup, for years.
and the department is still corrupt.
I was threatened by a cop for daring to try to take my case to court.(traffic ticket).
So I am no fan of the poLICE.
I ACCEPT the IDEA of the poLICE. and in the UK had felt NO hostility to the cops.
Never gave a whoot about them, they never bothered me.
They were too busy looking for criminals, not fights.
As to promotion is it as some say.
people get promoted to get them out before they do too much harm .
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#48 Gunsandreligion
The police have it very hard where ever they are, especially in areas where there is a lot of illegal immigration. They are usually 'damned if they do and damned if they don't.'
I live near the border and we have been having 'sweeps' and racial profiling. Policemen have been wounded and sometimes killed for holding back but also they have killed innocent people by over-reacting.
The Police have a thankless job. They are lauded if they 'do the right thing' (whatever that may be) and punished if they make a mistake. Politicians are playing so many 'games' at least where I live and the police have to figure out on the spot and on the job just what they should do.
I know that some police abuse their authority but I think that most are just trying to protect the peace as best they can.
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#49 Davidcunard
I totally agree.
No religious group should be allowed to dictate civil law but faith based charities often do a lot of good for many people without requiring those recipients to be 'believers.'
I think that we can energize and utilize the lovingkindness of so many selfless volunteers who feel that it is is part of their spirituality to give to others.
Why should we waste money on government programs that often fall short when some small inner-city church has created an effective program for dealing with disaffected youth and is also providing meals for 100 people per day all with small donations and volunteer help.
I say that this is what self-help and free enterprise is all about!
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jacksforge, there are towns like Eugene with
corrupt police departments, but it's generally
an exception in the US. It's more common for
police to be undertrained and overreact.
I grew up in Philly, and it was a safe town
until Rizzo got thrown out. He was as corrupt
as they come, but it turned out that he was
the only thing keeping crime down. That was
the "old" way of doing things along the East
Coast.
I remember as a child being told to stay
inside one day because there was a "bad
person" in the neighborhood. I found out
later that a serial killer was on the loose.
They caught him a day or two later. Then,
I was allowed to ride my bike all over the
place.
This was in a city of 2 million people. These
days, probably nobody would notice if
a serial killer was on the loose.
Now, Philly is basically unlivable because of
the crime. I don't know if the police are still
corrupt, they might be even more corrupt,
but the city is certainly not the same as the
one in which I grew up.
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Of course Obama is changing his views. He knows very well he will need the 'blue color vote' in November. He can only secure the 'blue color vote' when he moves somewhat to the right. His strategy seems to work very well: he leads in traditional blue color states like Ohio and Pennsylvania with a margin from 2-3% and is gaining ground in Michigan.
''It seems to me that Obama might be able to execute a reasonably cost-free transition of view on Iraq''
Of course he does, Obama's 16-month withdrawal plan has been unrealistic from the beginning. Leaving Iraq that soon will cause the collapse of the Republic of Iraq and the rise of the Islamic Republic of Iraq, sattelite state of Iran.
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#52Jacksforge
I don't know about your state, but can you complain directly to the Oregon state police or your state attorney general about corruption in your town?
Sometimes this is the only recourse in a smaller town where law enforcement is an issue.
Don't expect an immediate response. The gears grind very slowly in my experience but the squeaky gear does eventually get some oil.
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aquarizonagal, jacksforge, you will have more
success going to the FBI than any other agency,
state or federal. The further up you go, the fewer
entanglements emerge with your local jurisdiction.
It can take a long time, especially now with
the War {of, on} Terror, but that is one of their
basic missions.
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#45. peterm99 What I wrote was "There are many who don't care for alpha women, equating them with the female canine." I didn't include myself in the 'many' as you seem to have read it. Some bloggers and online commentators have used the word about Mrs Clinton and I feel sure that there are a lot of her detractors who have done so as well. I'm not one of them.
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re: #59 David_Cunard
I interpreted the "alpha woman" stuff as an implication that my dislike of her was at least partly due to gender-related bias rather than her lack of ethics.
I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning in what you wrote.
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#58Gunsandreligion
Thanks! I did not know this. I thought that the FBI was all about kidnapping, serial crimes and national security. I did not know that they could intervene regarding corruption in small local law enforcement agencies.
I do live and learn! Thanks again.
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aquagirl, jacksforge, it can take a while.
They generally want to follow the corruption
trail as far upstream as they can, which in
your case means the Oregon state gov.
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This is way off of all our topics.
But I give it now for all who believe in sustainability, conservation, green-living and helping to bring the USA back to the values we had many years ago. This is Independence Day after all.
Go to: eattheview.org
Place your vote for turning some of the White House lawn into a vegetable garden.
I love the idea. I hope some of you do too.
Happy July 4th and peace to all of you!
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#54 aquarizonagal: I guess the problem is the "often" instead of "always" in "often do a lot of good for many people without requiring those recipients to be 'believers." But then again, the government also imposes some "moral" conditions on funding for good causes, like funds for sex ed or AIDS programs if they only encourage abstinence or deny abortions.
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allmymarbles wrote:
#25. Yes, Lieberman won the election. But what you neglect to mention was that he won because of the cross-over republican vote. Democrats hate him -quite rightly.
No it is the etreme liberal wing which has taken over the democrat party which hates Lieberman. i am speaking as an independent.
And the fact they hate him speaks highly to the U.S public as a whole.
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"And the fact they hate him speaks highly to the U.S public as a whole."
Wow I agree.
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Aqua , I agree about the police and certain law changes would give them a better image.
The laws they serve are a little puritanical in some cases, (war on drugs).. if they relaxed on that they would get more help from the public. but hey Happy July4
Have a nice Bar-B-Q
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GnR the FBI just put offices in Eugene with a big federal court building to keep hippies in jail.
I doubt I'm going to go to them.
but maybe.
Have a nice GnR day
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re: #54 aquarizonagal and #64 jalvarezv
I am vehemently opposed to any "faith-based" funding of anything via tax dollars; I have two objections, one very practical, the other more philosophical.
Practical - Money is a fungible resource, a view that, in addition to being a fundamental economic fact, has been upheld via USSC court decisions (unfortunately, held to be so only in some specific cases when it has furthered the position of the government, but that is possibly a subject for another blog discussion). Because of this, there is no certain method to assure that taxpayer funds provided to a faith-based program cannot be used to indirectly further the religious interests of the recipient organization.
Philosophical - There has yet to be developed an _objective_ method to determine the validity of religious beliefs; all are, in the final analysis, merely different conventions and beliefs about certain historical (or not) events inexorably intertwined in myth, fable, and superstition. Therefore, unless _all_ belief systems are eligible for taxpayer funding to support "good" causes, to include Satanists, believers in Zeus, and even Pastafarians (believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster God), the concept of taxpayer funding of these programs flies in the face of freedom of (and from) religion.
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Checking Obama's policies and his extended discussion of them on the official Barack Obama site, he is not changing policy on Iraq so much as focusing on the wording he originally used.
It was always going to be a careful withdrawal, with much discussion with the military and the Iraqis themselves to ensure the safest way of achieving that. Who in their right mind, six months before their possible inauguration, would blindly stick to a timeframe of sixteen months if military intelligence suggested that the the political and humanitarian situation was changing and was likely to be a lot different come January 09.
And while we're on the subject of sanity, who in their right mind would suggest keeping the military there for a hundred years ..
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Pastafarian ,
love it never heard of that one. I'll join
Nothing like some pasta with my rasta.
And Footling greatsense.
R U A reada, someone that actually comprehends , welcome.
So few can see past what they want to hear anything Obama says.
I am glad your not one.
Happy July 4
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jacksforge, the only reason the cops in the UK didn't harass you or blow you away is that you didn't look like a Brazilian electrician.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brazilian_shot_by_police_on_London_Underground_was_not_acting_suspiciously
"Brazilian shot by police on London Underground was not acting suspiciously"
Tell us about Stephen Lawrence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lawrence
"In 1999, an inquiry headed by Sir William MacPherson examined the original Metropolitan police investigation and famously concluded that the force was "institutionally racist". An article on BBC Online defined it as 'one of the most important moments in the modern history of criminal justice in Britain'."
You wanted links and quotes, here are some links and quotes. Your rantings are a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Corruption and incompetence is the human condition, it happens all over the world.
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re: #71 jacksforge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
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#72 MarcusAureliusII - The Met. Police don't represent all of Britain's police, just as the NYPD and LAPD do not represent all of America's police forces. Tarring them all with the same brush is, to say the least, unfair. And, in case you were not aware, British police do not routinely carry firearms as they do in the USA; there has to be a special circumstance. I don't expect that jacksforge has been that special for them.
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last I checked no one said the met wasn't racist on this site.
" Corruption and incompetence is the human condition, it happens all over the world."
except as you Always say in the US.
this all started when you deny the US doing what it does.
I have heard NO one who did not get attacked by the likes of you that said the US system is institutionally racist and prison population shows it is.
Frontline says it is ,
charlie Rose says it is.
You think it is some glowing beacon of freedom and that you live in a country that upholds all it's ideals.
It IS YOU that cannot accept reality.
We all know our police systems have problems.
we know that they paint numbers on the bottom of cars so those run over can see who did it.
And yet still we know that the US does this in excess.
It is amazing ,all any country has to do is say"hell if you were living in the US we'd have a tank in this living room, feel lucky"
We do not have TANKS in our streets to arrest crank heads.
We do have investigations.
We also had RIOTS over Stephen Lawrence.
Go listen to the LKJ song.
and remember rodney king and all those others that we do not remember the name of.
Do you want to even go near the incarceration disparities in the US , not much better in the UK but still, better.
And do you want to talk about how many Black latino and other races (and frankly White people) who have been shot by the US cops.
no where near
all you have to do is stop going on about how great it is.
how much better it is.
because it is not.
get off your high horse and we will all talk to you as if you are a human. but while you persist in nothing with substance , remember you are not as smart as your parents let you think you were.
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David_Cunard;
"The Met. Police don't represent all of Britain's police, just as the NYPD and LAPD do not represent all of America's police forces. Tarring them all with the same brush is, to say the least, unfair."
In case you missed it....that was exactly my point. BTW, tarring all NYPD and LAPD officers with the same brush is exactly the same mistake. Most are good cops who do a dangerous job honestly and protect our lives. And we do have civilian review boards who have oversight. They are not completely beyond control.
"And, in case you were not aware, British police do not routinely carry firearms as they do in the USA; there has to be a special circumstance."
I knew they didn't used to. But has that changed to a degree? Perhaps London isn't as dangerous as some parts of America's cities...or perhaps our culture is just very different. I want and expect my police to be able to use deadly force to protect me when the need arises without having to first return to an armory to get their heat. I also expect them to carry their weapons with them at all times even when they are off duty. I think that is actually required of them.
"I don't expect that jacksforge has been that special for them."
....or anyone else in law enforcement....neither do I.
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jacksforge #75
"You think it is some glowing beacon of freedom and that you live in a country that upholds all it's ideals."
If you didn't also, why did you come here to live your life in it and become a citizen? Why are you so angry? Because it is less than the perfection you expected and always demand of others? You may not be so perfect yourself.
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peter great religion, guy was from Oregon (state):( (no really I don't care)
nice one though.
"Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett
is a funny book on a religious topic(sort of)
I to am wary of religion, but many who are religious I have met or known are good people.
so I am a little "soft" on religious folk.
I see them as no more foolish than me for not believing.
And I hope Obama's use of the word consider will become appropriate should he win in relation to faith or ( I hope) faithless charities.
Many do just give out food and help.
And DC is right
though I will not defend the met.
the songs by LKJ tells of other murders and false imprisonment of Black youth in the UK.
The daily mail(unusually) brought it to the front. and it was not the cops that killed him.
and it was a headline because it was rare.
others have been killed by the police, they are often in possession of a fake gun or some toy.but still the police in the UK get grilled because they acted too quick.
The gun was not real.
they did not riot over stephen lawrence as i said earlier ,jumped ahead there.
i was still thinking of the killing of Blair Peach.
where the police killed the man.
sorry but you see you make out the police killed lawrence,
If you want to go down the path of white on black murder or hate crimes than we brits cannot begin to catch up.
Blair peach was killed by cops .
there were no organised death squads in the met .
as in L A
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I came here because it was here.
not because i believed any rubbish about a better state , a great nation, where we all lived happily .
there is nothing to make one leave the UK except a sense of adventure.
And I never said I was perfect.
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jacksforge
"I came here because it was here"
What does that mean? India and China were there also but you wound up in Oregon? Why didn't you wind up somewhere else like India or China, why Oregon? The answer is obvious. The only one who doesn't see it or admit it is.....U!
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jacksforge
"there is nothing to make one leave the UK except a sense of adventure."
Boring there? And here I thought "London swing like a pendulum do."
"Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London. No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford."
— Samuel Johnson
Rather a dull gray dreary place I suppose. But then again, Oregon isn't exactly known for 365 days a year of sunshine either. Done any tiger hunting in Oregon? Maybe shot a giraffe or a rhino or two? I'd keep my elephant gun at the ready, you never know when the opportunity might arise.
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Hell I'll go to both India and China. Cool
more world experience.
Wow did no one invite you to a Bar b q?
It is U that sees only that.
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no we just have bears but everywhere here does.
by the way there is more to the UK than london mate.
but like most americans you think it's the same.
as for desert climates , not my thing being mostly water, I find their unsustainability oppressive .
those lizards that live in the sun states are weird to me.
while it is possible to be sustainable three it is unusual.
But then eastern oregon is pretty sunny.
As for rhino ,giraffe you are loosing it.
muster something better. or go gate crash a Bar b q.
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Now, this is coming from someone as a centerist. Someone who doesnt blindly support one person or another and who has followed all candidates across both parties since the unofficial 'start' of the primary season when they were still wrangling with the question of 'Who will run?'
This supposed Obama shift on Iraq isnt a shift at all.. but a re-iteration of what he's been saying since 2007. That his goal is to withdraw the troops in 16 months but that he would do so only after talking with those in charge on the ground and evaluating the situation(e.g: Not do so blindly).
That isnt to say that there hasnt been shifts in his policy.. but only that what he's said is inline with what he's been saying on the Iraq issue.
So far as I can tell this whole 'issue' arises from two sources:
1) McCain's attempts to deflect attention from his own series of of provable reversal of policies.
2) The Media's desire to 'spice up' things like this by jumping all over the presumed 'front runner'.
It's sad to say but this entire 'issue' was predictable once the polls starting to come back in showing that Obama was stretching his hypothetical lead.
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jacksforge, the way I got it figured...the real reason I think you came to live in America is...they threw you out of Britain, asked you to leave. This just show's America will put up with almost anything. :-)
I wonder if BBC censors will let this get posted. It hits a bit close to home for them.
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to MarieDevine
#32 "Radical Islamists hate the west (US, Britain) because we do not fight indecency in our society, they do."
I don't believe that's why they hate us. They hate us because from the fall of the Ottoman Empire right up to the invasion of Iraq we've been poking our noses into their internal affairs uninvited, exploiting them for our own selfish gain! We don't practise what we preach!
Let's just return to equitable and honest foreign policy, particularly a more even handed treatment of the Israel/Palestine problem rather than exploitation of the weak for the advancement of our own selfish interests.
Bush was elected by the so called Christian Right - the Evangelical movement, who seem to me to be just as guilty of their own kind of jihad (albeit more subtly fought) as exemplifed in the agressive and at times offensive rhetoric and foreign policy of the Bush administration which they supported and in some cases continue to support. The "My God's better than your God" gravy train isn't helping. I think we may be of the same opinion in that true spirituality and compassion seems to have got lost to the only god that the Bush Administration particularly and the West generally, knows - that god being Money, manifest in (amongst others) the illegal invasion of Iraq under false pretences in pursuit of oil and lining the pockets of large corporations in which the Administration had personal interests - eg Haliburton, not to mention the questionable practices of televangelists, who never seem to be short of a dollar or two either. Talk about hypocrisy!
You don't need me to remind you that money is the root of all evil, closely followed by blind unquestioning adherence to religious dogma of any persuasion. "God" means different things to different people, and all believe that their idea of God is right and everyone else's is somehow inferior. The Christian Bible has been misquoted in the past to justify everything from genocide to slavery in the same way that radical islamists misquote the Qu'ran to justify their atrocities, all in the name of God! If either of these scenarii represent god you can keep him. We don't need religious governments in any country imposing their particular version of "God" and degenerating into a theocracy.
I'll settle for a government which is honourable, sincere, compassionate and honest! Pigs might fly....
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re: #86 Stephen_Glasgow
Good post.
". . . a government which is honourable, sincere, compassionate and honest! Pigs might fly...."
Heck, I'd settle for any _one_ of those four, and would be immensely pleased at the improvement.
You are, of course, correct about the pigs. . .
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Stephen_Glasgow, MarieDevine, I don't think either of you have it right. Militant Islam is not only a religion it is a political movement. It would impose its own theocracy on all mankind. This is they way Militant Islamists think. We in the west present both an physical obstacle and a religious challenge to it. This type of theocracy does not allow dissent let alone challenge. It demands conformity. It is antithetical to democracy and intolerant of a secular society. Our culture and ideas as attractive to their would be converts is a direct challenge to them. Besides everything else, their dogma takes all the fun out of life. Worst of all to Sunis was the US military presence on what is to them holy ground in Saudi Arabia when the US was there to defend it against Iraq while Saddam Hussein was still a real threat. They viewed this as a sacrelige that could not be tolerated. It is notable that about a thousand years ago, Christianity was not that dissimilar to Militant Islam today. Imagine, an 11 th century mentality with access to 21st century weapons. And far more concern about the next world than this one. They are an implacable enemy. It is very dangerous to pretend anything less.
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#69 peterm99:
I am also opposed to "faith-based" funding of anything via tax dollars, I was merely pointing out the fact that the (current) government also imposes some "moral" (religious) based conditions on funding for social and other programs.
Another problem of "faith-based" initiatives is the "faith-based" curriculum in public elementary schools, like including intelligent design alongside evolution. Because there's this push now to include it in the curriculum, Pastfarians are also trying to get their theories in (with the argument of why only christian based theories? which is a great argument). Have you heard about the movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? It's part of this push. Pastafarians have their own parody "FSM Expelled" (both trailers found in YouTube).
In case people are interested, a couple more satiric religions besides "Pastafarianism (followers of FSM)" are the "Church of the SubGenius" and the followers of the "Invisible Pink Unicorn".
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dgilbert wow another, I was beginning to thing some twighlight zone had happened what with two truthful posters.
after all that MA lies
Stephan Glasgow, and Pete
what are you on truth Serum.
keep it up
"honourable, sincere, compassionate and honest "
sometimes I would accept someone that even knew what those words mean, then it's just a matter of getting them to do it.
debating here it becomes obvious that some believe they are all of these things but that is because they have no ability to comprehend.
a bit like GW's compassionate conservatives.
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sorry to t be so tiresome justin , but can you show us some examples of his change on the iraq issue.
really go for it.
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"28. At 2:16pm on 04 Jul 2008, SlashDashUnderscore"
I agree with your analysis. Obama has to move to the centre in order to win. He has to make himself acceptable to middle America. If that pisses off some urban liberals, then so be it.
Like Tony Blair and Bill Clinton, he's a pragmatist and a moderate at heart.
The Obama strategy at the moment reminds me of New Labour's path to victory in 1997. Nothing radical, nothing leftist, nothing to frighten off moderate conservative voters.
It's the correct strategy and it has the potential to sweep a landslide. He must pick a rural conservative, gun and God lover as his running mate, perhaps even Brian Schwietzer. However, I think Evan Bayh is the frontfunner, but I still wouldn't rule out Mrs Clinton.
Even if he loses heavily among white male voters, picking Hillary would make up the numbers among women and Latinos.
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I've gotten a little confused here. Is this blog site still Justin Webb's America or...jacksforge's invented view of America? What kind of mushrooms grow wild in the woods around Eugene Oregon? Looks to me like the real shift here has nothing to do with Obama or Iraq.
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Marcus AureliusII
#88 - Actually I agree with most of what you say, though I don't believe that America had bases in Saudi Arabia to protect the Saudis - they were protecting America's (and our) oil supply - if the west was truly interested in protecting the underdogs of this world we'd have got rid of Mugabe years ago, but Zimbabwe doesn't have huge oil reserves.
Every religion has it's share of extremists, but I still stand by the belief that Radical Islam as a strong political movement has its roots in Western interference, assisted by careful manipulation and indoctrination of the masses by the extremists, but we can't expect any chance of them changing their ways if we don't recognise our own responsibilities and change ours - hence the reference to honourable and equitable foreign policy. Let's not forget who trained Bin Laden in the first place! We'll never stamp it out completely - utopia doesn't exist - but why do their recruitment job for them?
I don't believe the violent radicals represent the majority of Muslims - many may give tacit approval to the cause of spreading their religion (not peculiar to Islam - isn't that what Christian Evangelism is all about?) but that's not the same as supporting the method. As for extremists imposing their theocracy on the world, I expect they may attempt to justify that by quoting our interference as evidence of us doing something similar. The British Empire, though not a theocracy, wasn't built for the benefit of the colonies...... neither is the American one. That doesn't justify their actions, but it does demonstrate that we don't exactly practise what we preach.
As for demanding conformity with no toleration of dissent, there are plenty of so called christian sects in the west who are all to happy to expel those who don't fit in to their narrow definitions. Granted, they don't usually get involved in violence directly, they just support it by proxy via their government, all of which I alluded to in my first post.
I think it was Ghandi who said "Be the change you want to see in the world". Let's just hope that whoever wins this election shows a bit more wisdom and intelligence than the current administration ever did!
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Obama is being truthful and seeking maximum support for the views he expresses.
The overall context is, as posters have indicated, a NeoCon imperialist adventure, undertaken for essentially the same reasons as the Britisah adventure of 1916-1932.
Oil and permanent advanced bases were objectives in both cases.
A larger issue is whether the Age of Imperialism has passed and whether we are groping toward some sort of international government.
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pot calling kettle are you there.
I disagree with you strongly. unlike those relative new comers I have read enough of yours to.
to protect Saudi arabia is another one of your fantasies.
It was for OIL and ISRAEL
what do you want us all to kowtow to the MA history. one based in the same myth that drives you to name yourself after a emperor.
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I agree with cyril. about Obama, I just don't think Obama will be suckered into a war.
Tony made the mistake of thinking GW was his ally.
which he was not. if it had been so some of the aftermath would have been sorted out.
This war is his biggest negative.
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The sign says it all...BHO, if elected, will move heaven and earth, under any pretext, to strip America of its liberties, beginning with private ownership of firearms.
He will, if elected, cave in to the Islamic fascists, and throw Israel under the wheels of the bus.
He will, if elected, attempt to socialize our society and economy.
Presently, he's just in the process of duping enough people who aren't paying attention into voting for him.
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OldSouth
You understate the case against Obama. It is America he will throw under the wheels of the bus.
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OldSouth, your paranioa is showing through big time.
McCain used to be someone I could fully support.. that is until he started to pander to the extream elements in his party. Trying to do things such as pandering to the evangelicals which is a complete contradiction of why so many people decided to support him(e.g. He wasnt one of the ones who stood up on the GOP debates claiming that he's more of a god fearing person then the person next to him which is what this nomination for the GOP, with the exception of McCain and Ron Paul, turned into... hell Huckabe's only real credentials as he was presenting himself was that he was a former baptist pastor). It is an overall betrayal of those who've supported him for years in favour of trying to court to those who are already suspicious of him and unlikely to truely support him.
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dlgilbert
McCain pander to the extreme elements of his party? which extreme elements, the far left wing of the Republican party? I'm talking about when he co-sponsored the Kennedy McCain eliminate the Mexican border bill. He was ready to give the nation away. I expected that from Kennedy but not from McCain. He was pandering to Hispanic Americans I suppose but they too have a stake in protecting the borders from millions more illegals flooding in without any control over their numbers or whether criminals get it with those who just want to find work. While these illegals may benefit the lettuce growers in California and Texas or the sweat shop garment trade in New York and Los Angeles, we taxpayers pay big time for their medical care, schooling of their children, and a lot more. They are a net drain on our economy. They send more money back to Mexico in what are called "remittances" than Mexico earns from its oil exports. Only the vocal demands of the vast numbers of voters smashed this bill in Congress from becoming law. We made the amnesty mistake under Reagan, he would have had us repeat it. McCain an extremist? Yes, an extreme sellout. And to think he is the lesser of two evils. Heaven help us. And oh yes, I forgot his support of the insane cap and trade scheme for carbon emissions. If you think energy and food are expensive now, wait until you see what that does to your electric bill, your heating bill, your gas prices, and your grocery bills. Will he let India and China off the hook too the way Europe wants us to? What else will he give away?
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#100 Dlgilbert
I so agree! I use to have respect for McCain even when I did not agree with him.
#101Marcusa.....
You despise Obama and you don't like McCain. I haven't read how you might feel about Nadar.
Who would you vote for president, yourself perhaps? It is a thankless job, I doubt you would enjoy it.
You can be so vitriolic, especially to some posters. I have wondered if you are a 'plant' by Jason Webb to keep things interesting.
Have a nice day!
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I am convinced that, if elected, Obama will withdraw a significant portion of our troops within 2 years, but I doubt he will close all military bases and abandon our economic interests in that hapless country. A US military presence will remain in Iraq for decades to come, not only to guarantee oil flow and lucrative contracts to American firms, but to preclude Iranian expansion. When we removed Saddam and the Baathists from power, and replaced them with Shiites aligned spiritually to Iran we changed the balance of power in favor of Iran. Until diplomatic relations with Iran improve, a robust US presence in Iraq is likely.
Guns: Hunting and fishing are popular sports in states like Montana, and Obama has no plans to limit the ability of people to hunt or protect themselves. What many of us object to is the need to have automatic weapons and carry concealed weapons.
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#103Dominickvila
My thoughts as well but you expressed them a lot more succinctly.
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On illegal immigration. In my opinion, there are two basic reasons for the influx of Mexican and Central American workers to the USA (plus thousands of Eastern Europeans entering through the Canadian border whose illegal act is ignored by virtue of race). "Latino" (I hate that term as it does not represent the ethnicity of the people we are referring to) illegal immigrants come to the USA because of the misery they endure in their native lands, and the opportunities they enjoy in the USA. They manage to work in the USA because of the complicity of US firms, who benefit from cheap labor and quite often can not find native workers willing to pick fruit and veggies. The "illegals" benefit from wages they could not earn in their homeland, US businessmen realize higher profits when they hire illegals, and the American consumer benefits from relatively inexpensive produce. A casual visit to any US medical facility would show a complete absence of "illegals" who hide from the law. Ironically, US citizens benefit from the taxes that the employers of illegals deduct from their paychecks since their fake documentation precludes them from claiming benefits such as unemployment or social security.
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aquarizonagal
If I expressed my opinion of Ralph Nader here, my posting would be deleted without the slightest doubt. I think he would have served us better had he stuck to warning us about defective Chevies and Volkswagons.
I would never want to be Presdent of the United States. If I were, I might just push the button to see what happens.
I have been called a lot of things but never a plant. I am a meat eater. But then so is a Venus fly trap.
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I think (not without reason) in the eyes of countries belonging to certain ideological groupings- political, religious or regional-U.S has been enjoying prosperity, unassailable power and political stability for too long to their liking and if I am to make no bones about it, they are simply envious. So, how U.S is viewed in other parts of the world flows from that fact and to see it, somehow 'cut down to size'. Thus
opinion polls in the U.S for the forthcoming
Presidential elections can hardly afford to let opinions of foreign countries-in a general
sense- impinge on it.
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Dominickvila
Precisely! There is very little talk of how many millions of dollars in taxes have been collected from undocumented workers. They don't file for tax refunds, Earned Income credits, economic incentive checks, social security or other government money.
Field work is hard, back breaking labor. I know. I've done it. How many want low wages picking veggies, please raise your hands!
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The cost of food is not just related to the wages we pay farm workers. It has a great deal to do with processing and transportation.
The more food is processed the more expensive it becomes. Eating foods out of season that have to travel long distances also costs more.
Eat locally, eat seasonally as much as possible.
This can help keep the food bills down. Plant a garden, grow some herbs in pots on your windowsill. It's called 'green living.'
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Sorry, I repeated myself by accident but maybe this message bears some repeating. I gave a web site yesterday : eattheview.org
It deserves a visit even if you might think it pointless.
Do we want things to get better? No one person can change everything or do everything but each of us can do 'something' no matter how small it may seem to just make life a little better wherever we are.
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Obama has said before that he would consult with military commanders before making final decisions. His statement to me have been his vision of what he would like to see (I would love to see the troops out in 16 months), but ..... until he has access to the real data ..... such a decision can not be made.
I do not trust the information from the current administration, why should he. There is much kept very hush hush me thinks. Buy in to the vision, lets have our troops home sometime in 2010 or so, but the final when ..... it would not be prudent to say without access to the "in data".
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I've been thinking over the last two days and I have concluded that in the USA, one of the last acceptable forms of openly expressed bigotry is against the religious right. (NO I AM NOT A MEMBER)
It seems that every Christian has been tarred by the same brush that should only belong to those like Falwell, Dodson and so many others of their ilk.
There are members of what I call the 'God Squad' in their fancy clothes and jewelry, asking for 'love gifts' who are not representative of good people who try very hard to live their version of a good life.
The so called 'Christian Right' should never be allowed to dictate this country's laws or how its leaders function. However, can we at least give individuals some respect and not presuppose that everyone who calls him or herself a Christian is also a raving lunatic?
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#111Razzie
You've got that one! Obama will not get full briefings until he is president elect. Even then, I'm not sure that Bush and company would not try to hide things.
Hold hope, keep faith. That is all we can do for now.
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Hey Mr. Moderator. Wonder why the "previous" thread "Health Guns and Unity" hasn't had any contributions from participants for hours and hours? BECAUSE as usual BBC software broke down. Hey jacksforge, you think these Euro-clowns are actually going to Mars one day the way they brag they will? They can't even get an internet site to work right after years of trying. And like the rest of their clumsy blundering efforts, they dont' even know it until someone like me tells them. Hey BBC, if you can't report the news fairly, could you at least get your damned software to work? Don't want to hire a 10 year old American kid to finally fix it right for you? Then hire a 20 year old Indian. Your IT department is pathetic.
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Hey, MAII, that wasn't very nice!
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#114. MarcusAureliusII asks "Wonder why the "previous" thread "Health Guns and Unity" hasn't had any contributions from participants for hours and hours?" Probably not the software but being tired of the overlong posts and general irrelevance of what you post. Since you write "I detest Europe. The more I've learned about it over my lifetime, the more convinced I am that the whole place is a fraud, a miserable sham" one must take issue with the fact that you post so frequently on a European site. If you loathe it so much, a continent from which your forebears appear to have come, then you should not be taking advantage of this site's gracious hosting of a space where your intemperate remarks are posted. I feel sure that France - and the rest of Europe - will be gratified to know that you will not be returning to its shores. There are plenty more potential visitors who find Europe a civilised place to visit and who, unlike yourself, do not behave, talk or write like the stereotypical "ugly American". There's a phrase in British English which no doubt the moderators are attempting to signal to you: belt up!
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David Cunard
Funny how you Euros (I won't use the epithet we Americans actually use for fear of being censured) are only too ready to accept massive America bashing when it is completely unjustified but intollerant of even one individual engaging in Eurobashing when it entirely is. That not only proves that the European mind is tyrannical but that deep down it knows it is dead wrong.
gunsandreligion;
"Hey, MAII, that wasn't very nice!"
True, but it is after all it's just a taste of their own medicine. Hey I didn't make up the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkeys." That was made up by the great American philosopher Bart Simpson :-) They can dish it out but they sure can't take it. Shouldn't they feel what the other end of the stick is like once in awhile? And I do so love giving it to them, they make it so easy.
BTW David_Cunard, will France and the rest of Europe be grateful if I never return to their shores as you say? I think that depends on just how much money I could ring up on my credit cards given my credit limit. After all, to those who would sell out their friends as the French and Germans did at the Security Council in 2003, money is everything.
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MAII, if we listened to our friends once in
a while, we might be better off.
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G n R. well said.
Funny MA i just say your comments on the americans ordering a euro plane for their military, yet a few weeks ago you told us all that no european plane maker was asked to build a tanker.
Man , can I have some, maybe I can forget to nag at you.
Sorry I have a nasty side to.
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#117. MarcusAureliusII This isn't a forum for either 'America bashing' or 'Eurobashing' in which you so frequently engage; nowhere is perfect.
You'd have to ring up a great many dollars in Continental Europe and Britain since the dollar is at an all-time low against the Pound sterling and the Euro. In any case, spending vast amounts won't make you liked, only respect for other people can do that, a quality of which you appear to have precious little. The antagonistic tone you adopt is not calculated to bring a friendly response. Perhaps your mother loves you but, based upon your ramblings, I can't imagine that anyone else would. Try being pleasant for a day or two, it can bring greater rewards than the reverse.
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"engaging in eurobashing"
wow you would think there was a battle.
that the sweat was pouring over the wounds.
Not even I who has responded to you trash more than most would say this was engaging debate , the cut and thrust of politics.
I call it ranting.
DC like I was saying earlier on one of these posts.
there is a film called "Who killed the electric car," looking for solutions(as I try) here is one .
great one as it happens with some truly inspiring folk that given some of your writings I think you would find amusing and informative.
as to why thing are not progressing as fast on the renewable energy front as we all should like.
why did GM replace the electric vehicle and market the HUMMer instead, in 2001.
they KILLED the electric car program.
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HEY MA There are good american designers and engineers in this film.
.not the sort that would like you views on climate responsibility . but some pretty smart people. now they are patriots. trying to sort out what is wrong with america.
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gunsandrelicion
With friends like France and Germany, we don't need enemies.
jacksforge;
where did I say that EADS was not "asked" as you put it to supply the tankers. It was the USAF's intention to award the contract to EADS that brought it into the news and made Congress so angry in the first place, otherwise few in the general public would even have known or cared that they were buying tankers. I don't know what the decision will finally be but I saw one woman who is a USAF procurement officer being bashed by members of a Congressional investigating comittee. I expect it to be reversed. We'll see.
David_Curnard,
BBC has become a media circus in part DEVOTED to America bashing. And so are many Euros who post here. Europeans don't like getting a taste of their own medicine even from one person? Always want to change the subject from the message to the messenger? That's the strategy of someone who acknowledges that they have already lost the substance of an argument.
Europe hated America from the day it was born. That alone is one way we know for sure America was doing something right.
In all likelihood I won't be going back to Europe again for a very long time....like probably never. If I want to travel, there's a much wider world out there to see than the endless mounds of antiquated junk towns, villages, and cities on the sides of mountains that were little more than caves built centuries ago that travel agents call "quaint." They may look good for five minutes when you first see them but the prospect of actually living and working in one endless museum retrofitted or should I say juryrigged with indoor plumbing and electricity is very unappealing. When you've seen one European town, you've seen them all. Only the details are different.
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Clinton and Obama to attend a number of joint fundraisers next week. I just wonder if he is paving the way for the "dream ticket"?
It will take a lot of hard work to persuade enough of his own supporters to back the idea.
As I have said before, his poll lead is soft and he will suffer from the Bradley effect. Small town America does not trust him on national security and Latinos like McCain.
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To MarcusAureliusII
#114 #117
I'm pretty new here, so haven't been party to any previous debates or "mud slinging" and have no axe to grind, however, experience tells me that when someone resorts to insults it's usually a sign that they've lost the rational debate, or the plot. That post does you no credit, sir, and actually adds credence to the views of your detractors. Far from earning respect for your opinions it actually represents you as holding the very same attitudes for which you have expressed such contempt!
By all means criticise when you have facts and rational argument to back it up - that is, after all, what debate is all about and life would be very dull if we all agreed, but that kind of post will only serve to reinforce - some would even say justify - whatever anti-American stereotypical prejudice already exists.
Small minds talk about people, average ones about events, great ones about ideas - can we stick to the ideas, please!
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I find the constant claims of "America-bashing" troubling and, in some cases, downright embarrassing. Freedom of speech is one of our most basic rights and privileges. Condemning the right of others to express their opinion is in direct contradiction to our principles and, in my opinion, it reflects insecurity on our part. I spent 30 years overseas and my experience is that most foreigners like Americans, our lifestyle, many of our products, and the freedom and opportunities that we enjoy. However, many resent and reject our government and corporate policies and actions, which often infringe on their freedom and sovereignty. Until we learn to respect other cultures and the right of other people to choose what they believe is best for them, we should expect and accept expressions of disagreement. Consider the contrast between being criticized for what we do with actions that involve the physical occupation of other nations, the removal or isolation of governments we don't like, setting business terms that adversely affect other economies, and imposing our values and interests upon others. What would we do if we were in their shoes? The BBC is one of a few international media outlets that offer a balanced view news and freedom of expression in forums such as HYS, instead of one-sided opinions and "sanitized" news.
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#86 - Bush was not elected by the "Christian right", ..., unless the "Christian right" comprises 50% of our voting public.
Bush was elected, in no small part, by people that wanted "change".
As we new see, the "change" we get is not necessarily to our liking.
Personally, I voted against a 3rd Clinton term. (sound familiar?)
---
Perhaps, if the two French students in London had a gun, the outcome would have been different.
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#125 - Stephen_Glasgow
Well said.
Anyone who quotes Bart Simpson "adds credence to the views of " their detractors.
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Stepehen Galgow
Do you have anything of substance to discuss related to the issues I have debated here?
Have you understood what I have been saying? How would you feel if Americans spent lots of time telling Scots how dumb they are to devolve and separate from England because they would be giving up billions in tax transfer subsidies every year merely for providing the English with psychological balm to soothe their neurotic fears of being isolated?
DominikVila
Has it ever occurred to you that our lifestyle, products, freedom and opportunity are the direct result of our government and corporate policies and actions? They want the honey but they don't like the bees.
As for infringing on their freedom and sovereignty, just watch them beg for us to come back when we leave or to come help them when they are in trouble and we don't show up right away. Is what you are talking about the fact that American corporations actually expect and take away profits from their investments in foreign countries? Funny, they don't consider themselves charities. Or that the US government tries to influence other governments to act in accordance with its own goals? Funny how that works also. No you are only criticizing it because we are so much more effective at it than other nations which do exactly the same thing are. This is the result of the power that came with the success of American society relative to the failures of others. If what you want is a level playing field....faggedaboudit.
Which countries would you like us to not occupy right now? How about Kosovo? Why don't we just pick up and leave? Then either the Serbs could go back to mass murdering the Kosovars or Europe's own military could keep them apart. How about we leave Okinawa? Then Japan feeling threatened by China could turn its huge mountain of plutonium into a world class nuclear arsenal. How do you think China and Korea would feel about that? I'm sure you'd love us to leave Iraq. Let them all have at each other. Then when there is no more oil exports, perhaps environmentalists here in the US will relent and let us drill some of our 100 billion barrels of offshore and ANWR reserves so we don't freeze to death.
I do not condemn the right of others to free speech in bashing America. I am simply exercising and asserting my own right to do the same to them about their countries. Does that embarrass you? Does it make you uncomfortable that someone actually defends America's views, actions, policies, government, society, values, achievements? Too bad. Stop criticizing my right of free speech, after all that is what you are doing isn't it?
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DominickVila wrote:
I find the constant claims of "America-bashing" troubling and, in some cases, downright embarrassing. Freedom of speech is one of our most basic rights and privileges. Condemning the right of others to express their opinion is in direct contradiction to our principles and, in my opinion, it reflects insecurity on our part. I spent 30 years overseas and my experience is that most foreigners like Americans, our lifestyle, many of our products, and the freedom and opportunities that we enjoy. However, many resent and reject our government and corporate policies and actions, which often infringe on their freedom and sovereignty. Until we learn to respect other cultures and the right of other people to choose what they believe is best for them, we should expect and accept expressions of disagreement. Consider the contrast between being criticized for what we do with actions that involve the physical occupation of other nations, the removal or isolation of governments we don't like, setting business terms that adversely affect other economies, and imposing our values and interests upon others. What would we do if we were in their shoes? The BBC is one of a few international media outlets that offer a balanced view news and freedom of expression in forums such as HYS, instead of one-sided opinions and "sanitized" news.
No problem with Fredom of Sppeech in fact it is the PC left who is more responsible for restraint of it these days.
But there is a definite percentage who use any issue on the HYS to bash American. Just look at the discussion of the Columiba rescue of the FARC hostages. Several posters just have to take a shot at the U.S
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neal_a2
"Anyone who quotes Bart Simpson "adds credence to the views of " their detractors."
I felt the same way about the Beatles.
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#126 DominickVila
Thankyou! At last - someone who understands!
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#129 "Do you have anything of substance to discuss related to the issues I have debated here?"
Read my previous posts.
"Have you understood what I have been saying? How would you feel if Americans spent lots of time telling Scots how dumb they are to devolve and separate from England because they would be giving up billions in tax transfer subsidies every year merely for providing the English with psychological balm to soothe their neurotic fears of being isolated?"
Some Americans do spend lots of time telling us how dumb we are. We listen - we don't always agree, but where appropriate we learn from the debate, and we return the challenge. Some respond more rationally than others. Rational responses will always earn more respect and may even result in changing opinions. Rants rarely achieve anything positive.
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Ref #130
I suspect that many of the criticisms that pass for "America-bashing" concerning the recent hostage rescue in Colombia are not based on our involvement in current events, but on history. A casual review of our history of intervention in Latin American affairs, and our tendency to support totalitarian regimes throughout the region, would explain why so many people view our current policies suspiciously, regardless of how laudable they may be. Instead of demonstrsting arrogance and immaturity, we should reflect on what people are telling us, reject what we conclude to be unfair or unfounded, and embrace ideas and suggestions that enhance our policies and strengthen our moral standing in the world.
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Ref #129
No Marcus, as a third generation American I would never dream of criticizing or condemning your right to free speech and your obligation to defend our country. What I find unseemly is the style you use to debate issues. If you disagree with someone else's opinion, do so in a mature and civilized fashion, instead of resorting to the eternal "America-bashing" scheme.
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DominikVila
Why don't you just cut to the chase and admit that it was the American government that told Eve to give the apple to Adam?
Stephe_Glasgow
I am surprised and shocked....that there are any Americans who would discuss Scotland with the Scots since based on what America bashers routinely say about our education system, most Americans couldn't even find Scotland on a map to save their lives let alone know anything about what goes on there. To this day I still don't know what you wear under those kilts.
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To return to the point: there is nothing contradictory about 1) saying that the US should not have invaded Iraq; and 2) saying that as they are now mired in the conflict, the process of extracting them will take time and patience. The first is a matter of principle, the second a matter of necessity.
Whether it is McCain or Obama that is responsible for the endgame, that person will have to clean up the present mess and redefine the US role in the Middle East. Obama has the high ground in having said that it was the wrong thing to do in the first place; that may give greater confidence that he will proceed to resolve the issue with more wisdom than McCain: that is all.
I suspect Obama will be more of a hawk on foreign policy than people expect, but also someone who prefers diplomacy. As for Iraq, the original problem was not simply the invasion, but the fact that there were no strategic objectives that would ensure long-term stability: infrastructure, agriculture, communications, climate management: if the US had gone in with an investment agenda that ensured people were busy and well paid, the situation would be very different now.
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"Congress is furious with the US air force for awarding a contract to EADS to supply air to air refueling tankers in preference to Boeing. I think the amount was 9 billion dollars."
"Is the A380 a C5A? Yes and no. A380's details are very different reflecting 40 years of remarkable aeronautical advance but they are approximately the same shape and size with the same mission, to carry a large load over a long distance. They have more in common than you think. BTW, you haven't heard the US military ask EADS to develop a military cargo version have you? I didn't think so."
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Always want to change the subject from the message to the messenger?
wow another erronious tactic. repeat others accusations.
Today Leberman came on TV (abc i think) and said Obama was for immediate withdrawal and is moving to Mc Cain position.
What a lying sack of rats.
Find these times Obama said pull out irrespective of the situation.
Then goes on to promote MC CAIN
and they still allow that D next to his name.
the guy is just like MA. a war mongerer who makes up his opponants words.
some one who attacks others for something the other never said.
lying.
Deceitful and erronious.
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"Do you have anything of substance to discuss related to the issues I have debated here? "MA
go look up debate. I think again your comprehension lets you down.
Majerkin
But there is a definite percentage who use any issue on the HYS to bash American. Just look at the discussion of the Columiba rescue of the FARC hostages. Several posters just have to take a shot at the U.S
well in every debate at least one of the less well educated americans comes on and says thing like " euros should be wiped out they are jew killing donkey cleaners"
at which point in the rational debate we all .INCLUDING MANY OF US AMERICANS say
"you're a jerk."
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132. At 1:57pm on 06 Jul 2008, Stephen_Glasgow wrote:
#126 DominickVila
Thankyou! At last - someone who understands!
oh he's not the only one ,infact on most topics Most americans seem as reasonable as the people I live with and know here in oregon.
The MA and Majickirkin are two exceptions( there are a few others).
I personally will not allow his lies to go unchallanged. which is what he wants.
lies and figments of his warped imagination.
When americans stop behaving like him . I quickly warm to them.
I have an american Mum who will not live in the UK for two reasons. No health care, and death penalty. 2001 she added stupid wars for choice.
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MA again you pick on a Scott , man.
I would give up with that if I were YOU.
they are on the whole very well educated(thanks to a system independent from london )
Even after(and some times especially after) a few glasses of whiskey most I have met would be able to out debate and out think you on almost any topic.
An amazing number of the FO are scottish, because the FO recognises that educational excellence.
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As for how geographically ignorant americans can be.
I was working with a kid , doing landscaping. He was at Uni here in the states.
he asked where you from. I told him england.
what is that part of France.
And the shame was it was a great Joke, but he did not realise it. he thought it was.
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Mark from Oxford .
the last paragraph (the rest i agree) is something that has bugged me. I agree.
Living here what I saw was something that actually seems to relate to the bothersome subject of MA and his rants.
America went in thinking all will love them no matter what they do. Just because they are american.
I also Know soldiers that said even though told not to flush toilet paper down the sewers. they did. causing a blockage right when we needed to be showing the people how much we cared.
The whole time the media covered GW and al with the "they will love us " " there will be no resistance.
wow they all ran away.
I was watching thinking "How stupid"
have they read ANY history books from any where. there will be a Resistance.
hell the Brits had been fighting in N Ireland for years.
But there was this Gungho confidence and blind ignorance and self justification.(and not to begin to go down the path of only halliburton etc making money)
and when criticised they got all our way or the high way.
freedom fries etc.
It was disgusting.
and all those free thinking non brainwashed types who said anything critical were told by all those like the 'erronious emperor of fluff himself' attacked them.
where ever possible.
I have a friend in his 60's who said it was the scariest time for him. you did not know who you could speak to, without people jumping on you for being UNPATRIOTIC.
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I see paralells here between Obama and George McGovern in 1972.
Like Obama, McGovern was an outsider who won the nomination by mobilising disenfranchised voters in the teeth of the democratic party hierarchy. Having beaten that machine, he proceeded to get into bed with it, adopt its values and strategies. His original support became disillusioned, he failed to win over right wingers, his choice of running mate was a disaster. The evil genius Richard Milhous Nixon made hay and won by forty-nine states to one.
If Obama continues as he has recently, McCain (who has been consistent in his attacks but no where near the formidable opponent that Nixon was) will be able to portray him as a weak opportunist. The Christian right he is trying to suck up to will never vote for him in a million years. He will be beaten like a gong on polling day. All we need now is for Hilary to own up to a serious vicodin habit and a history of incarceration in state mental hospitals...
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#144Jacksforge
It was and still is a scary time. Just before we invaded Iraq an 82 year old woman I know sent a gentile letter of rebuke to Bush regarding her disagreement with him on Iraq. She received a letter from the FBI telling her it wasn't patriotic to disagree with the president.
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jacksforge, since you've been here a while,
I thought that you'd appreciate the following
joke that a French friend of mine passed on
to me, apologies if you've heard it before:
The UN tried but failed to pass a resolution
that said, "The advanced nations of the world
should please produce more food for the rest of
the world."
The resolution failed because the South Americans
didn't understand what "please" meant, the
Europeans didn't understand what "produce"
meant, the Russians didn't understand what
"more" meant, and the Americans didn't understand
"the rest of the world."
Every culture has its faults, and I'm sure that
you've found plenty of ours during your time
here.
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Vickersone
McGovern was double stupid and I supported him I might add. Obama is not stupid.
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Why do you keep posting jacksforge ramblings he has no knowledge of history or world events.
His mantra is the U.S is at fault for everything(at least untill Obama is elected) I'm suprised he doesn't blame the U.S for the disasters in China
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There might have been more outcry over this war if the draft had been reinstated. Many people have not realized until recently how much our National Guard and standing military have been used and abused.
Between Afganistan and Iraq, many have been deployed four to five times with maybe less than a month's rest between deployments.
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#147Gunsandreligion
Cute! But sadly true
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#149Magickirin
Jacksforge speaks his mind and speaks from his heart. Are we not all free to do the same?
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GnR nice joke. like it.
as a British person. I feel left out, or are you trying to say we are part of europe.. eeeew icky :);)
As for faults ,
I've found a few
but not to few,
to few to mention.
I am also a great critic of the UK, even the Netherlands.
But unfortunately some very rarely get to hear that for I spend too much time countering their lies .
and general inability to see the other side.
I used to live in a tower block in Romania where both the PLO representative and the Israeli representatives lived. Smart Chauchescue on that one(the only smart thing he did) .
Apart from being a communist state where there was Very little chance of terrorism.
the building was safe. a solomonesque solution is ever there was.
there i learned the PLO guy was human.
I played with the kalashnikovs the armed soldiers had. to guard the building.
And NEVER did I feel threatened, like when I look into a cops face here.
Though to give some credit, there are some who I would give the benefit of reasonable doubt as to their being bent.
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no none.
and yet still way more than you and markass.
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Aqua girl .
not just from the heart but from the head.
two things we have in common that seperate us from THEM.
He is the sort that only Understands a subject never to Overstand it.
Scary the idea of the draft, which will be needed if another front is opened.
this time there will be a challange to the Supreme court on the validity of a draft that is so sexist as to only call for the Boys to die.
Equal rights will come into play.
And not many would want that.
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gunsandreligion #147
"jacksforge....Every culture has its faults, and I'm sure that you've found plenty of ours during your time here."
Not enough to get him to want to leave. Not nearly enough......hmmm, why don't we help him find some more :-)
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Markfromoxford #137
"Obama has the high ground in having said that it (invading Iraq) was the wrong thing to do in the first place"
Not to those who think that it was the right thing to do. At the time, most of Congress and most Americans agreed with the President although you probably wouldn't know it if all you heard was the clamor over it in Europe. Looking back on it, it still seems to have been to great advantage to the US geopolitical position. If nothing else, it made it clear who America's friends aren't and who it cannot rely on when it is threatened. And it certainly shook up the entire Middle East. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I'm rather pleased with the situation as it is. I think it is far preferable to the way it was before the invasion.
Obama now has to gradually reposition himself as the prospect that he might become President next January looms larger. He will have to be able to reconcile his rhetoric which up until now has suggested he would pull out quickly (at least that's what his followers seem to have heard him say) and the reality that if he does pull the US military out, the power vacuum could leave a far worse mess than there is already. What's more, a gradual pullout if it's too fast could at one point leave the remaining troops vulnerable to attack so he would either have to recommit troops or pull the remaining ones out precipitiously. He risks a lifetime of "I told you so" if he does pull out and he risks a lifetime of being called a liar for breaking his promise if he doesn't. Maybe this thread should have been called, "Obama on the hot seat."
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Jacksforge, I was in Austin when Bush went in and I had to pick my words very carefully about what I thought, but I said at the time much what I said in that paragraph: that they had to address the issues of agriculture, communications, infrastructure, and climate, and make sure that Iraq did not become what it has. People nodded, but I could see the US was still wrapped up in the myth of its stubbed toe supremacy.
Bush behaved like someone who had read his Chairman Mao, but not his Machiavelli: I was struck by his themes of never-ending war, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun, and his sincere belief that religion is the opiate of the people. What he didn't read was Machiavelli's cautionary advice that when you invade you must either destroy everything and start again or else 'go local': the US did neither and the result is textbook failure. Now they can only hope the exhaustion of others and tryiing to exit with some dignity intact. If they are wise as they do so, they will put specific aid plans in place to start diverting those hearts and minds.
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Jacksforge
Women don't really have equal rights. That amendment to the constitution was never passed so the Supremes will probably not have to mess with it. Women's rights issues were left up to law makers.
However, women have already died and been wounded in Iraq.
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Markfromoxford
Well said!
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at the time most of congress was being lied to by a traitor called George Bush
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#123 MarcusAureliusII "Europe hated America from the day it was born." Really! Had not the French recognised the breakaway nation - and assisted with her military - there might never have been a United States; history could have been very different. With regard to today, neither the French, Germans nor British "hate" America, millions visit every year. The British have adopted much of the American way of life, even to its linguistic variations. If these countries really hated the US, that would not be the case.
"When you've seen one European town, you've seen them all." You could say that about those in America - and as for the "mounds of antiquated junk towns, villages, and cities", although not on mountain sides, you might consider the architecture of Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco and many others, even Downtown Los Angeles, all of which have historic areas within them. "Junk towns" are not unique to Europe.
It is sad that you vent your spleen here; from what you write, you appear to be one very unhappy individual with a chip on your shoulder that weighs you down considerably. Europe won't miss you.
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Oh aqua i know women serve, and am sorry for that.
I agree equal right for women seems not to have happened yet.
but they will have to deal ,I would think ,if some guy brought a claim of sexism against the army for forcing him to go to war but not any women.
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#106 MarcusAureliusII :
How ignorant you come out when you say "I think he would have served us better had he stuck to warning us about defective Chevies and Volkswagons." You obviously know very little about Nader. I guess that's why it's so easy to dismiss his presidential candidacy like you do, "ignorance is a bliss?"
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" up until now has suggested he would pull out quickly (at least that's what his followers seem to have heard him say) "
not this one ,or a number of others that have replied here. well a few clinton supporters and republicans,maybe .
Mark form Oxford.
I agree about the hearts and minds needing to be dealt with.
Curious as to the" opiate of the people"
is that because the people could not afford the real stuff?
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aquarizonagal wrote:
#149Magickirin
Jacksforge speaks his mind and speaks from his heart. Are we not all free to do the same?
Certanatly but he seems to have contempt for anyone who does not adhere to his world view.
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jalvarezv #164
#106 MarcusAureliusII :
"You obviously know very little about Nader. I guess that's why it's so easy to dismiss his presidential candidacy like you do..."
I'm not the only one who dismissed Ralph Nader's candidacy, the voters dismissed it overwhelmingly. Go look at his dismal results. He got a big, fat, NO!
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166. At 7:14pm on 06 Jul 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
aquarizonagal wrote:
#149Magickirin
Jacksforge speaks his mind and speaks from his heart. Are we not all free to do the same?
Certanatly but he seems to have contempt for anyone who does not adhere to his world view.
I do not come on this site sayin america should be wiped out by the rest of the world, that if they killed all americans our enviroment would be saved. europeans have the right to destroy israel because they do not do as we wish.. briatain should use its nukes on america and israel before they start a war.
that is your style.
I just tell you when you are wrong.
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as for slagging nader. there was no chance of him winning and obviously the protest value has been lost. GW came in and helped kill the electric car the GM EV project with tax breaks for big trucks.
Nader is a smart and good guy.
and I would like him as VP.
but that won't win a general election.
Another for the americans turning him down was he wants to help start saving the environment. which to some of you is a crime.
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as for "whats up your kilt" you asked the scots."
in your case MA i suspect it is someone you accept a lot The magickirkin.
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#167 MarcusAureliusII :
"I'm not the only one who dismissed Ralph Nader's candidacy, the voters dismissed it overwhelmingly. Go look at his dismal results. He got a big, fat, NO!" Well, my comment would apply to all of them who who know as little about Nader as you seem to know.
I'd say he did pretty well for the media exposure he got. If Nader had been at least allowed in the debates he would have received more votes. I know that's a big "if", but why don't they let him in this time and we'll find out? Because the democrats know Nader is a better candidate and if more voters know about him there will be more votes for Nader.
I personally know quite a few people that thought Nader was a better candidate back then and would have voted for him had it not been for the democrats' scare tactic of "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" and "things will be worse with Bush".
Asking someone to vote for you because of fear seems to me that shows your little worth.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I saw Nader on TV on C-span about a year or two ago. He's not only a kook, he's an (expletive deleted.) He will never win a national election in the United States, not in anyone's wildest dream. Out of over 105 million votes cast in the 2000 election, he got lest than 3 million. He's a nobody. He's nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000
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all my marbles (#16) wrote:
"Look what happened to Joe Lieberman, Senator Obama, when he was disloyal to his constituency. He lost the primary."
Joe Lieberman's constituency obviously wasn't limited to the democratic party of Connecticut, or he would not have won with more votes than the Republican and Democratic nominees put together, the people of Connecticut spoke out and said:
"The agenda of the extreme liberal-left, who have high-jacked the democratic party, is not our agenda, and despite the results of the democratic nomination, we will continue to support our Senator."
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, jacksforge wrote:
166. At 7:14pm on 06 Jul 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
aquarizonagal wrote:
#149Magickirin
Jacksforge speaks his mind and speaks from his heart. Are we not all free to do the same?
Certanatly but he seems to have contempt for anyone who does not adhere to his world view.
I do not come on this site sayin america should be wiped out by the rest of the world, that if they killed all americans our enviroment would be saved. europeans have the right to destroy israel because they do not do as we wish.. briatain should use its nukes on america and israel before they start a war.
that is your style.
I just tell you when you are wrong.
You just confirmed my point.
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and yet he is still light years ahead of you.
And it is you that is the nobody and nothing.
your arguments are nothing.
Nader would get way more votes now than in 2000 if it were not for the desire to make sure the GOP does not Hijack the country again.
The environment has become a big issue. and even the slowest nation on earth (US A) has figured out that there may actually be a future in lookig at the world with Green eye's.
As opposed to just being green with envy at the rest of the world.
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Lieberman is a traitor.
Would sell out the US security to appease Israel.
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, jalvarezv wrote:
#167 MarcusAureliusII :
"I'm not the only one who dismissed Ralph Nader's candidacy, the voters dismissed it overwhelmingly. Go look at his dismal results. He got a big, fat, NO!" Well, my comment would apply to all of them who who know as little about Nader as you seem to know.
I'd say he did pretty well for the media exposure he got. If Nader had been at least allowed in the debates he would have received more votes. I know that's a big "if", but why don't they let him in this time and we'll find out? Because the democrats know Nader is a better candidate and if more voters know about him there will be more votes for Nader.
I personally know quite a few people that thought Nader was a better candidate back then and would have voted for him had it not been for the democrats' scare tactic of "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" and "things will be worse with Bush".
Asking someone to vote for you because of fear seems to me that
Nader is running because of his tremendous ego. If you are Obama supporter I would not worry. If Obama loses it won't be becuase of Nader.
Most of Nader likely voters are still steaming from 1980 and their belief it tokk votes away from Gore.
A problem with Nader is he is very selective on who he demonizes. He never attacks govt bureacracy or labor unions who hurt the economy and consumer far more than big business.
Go Wal-Mart
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#173 MarcusAureliusII:
Regarding your comments on Nader "He's not only a kook, he's an (expletive deleted.)" and "He's a nobody. He's nothing.", you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Although if he really was "a nobody, a nothing", the democrats wouldn't be so afraid of him running.
Regarding "He will never win a national election in the United States, not in anyone's wildest dream. Out of over 105 million votes cast in the 2000 election, he got lest than 3 million.", well it seems like maybe 3 million people thought otherwise.
Tell you what, which are your top 3 issues to elect a candidate this year? We'll compare Obama's and Nader's positions on them.
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# 178 MagicKirin:
"Most of Nader likely voters are still steaming from 1980 and their belief it tokk votes away from Gore." I disagree with this statement, most of the people I know that support him are too young to have been involved in anything in 1980. Regarding taking votes away from Gore, nobody took votes away from Gore (except maybe the judicial system in the Florida fiasco), and the Nader supporters I know definitely do not believe this.
As for "He never attacks govt bureacracy or labor unions who hurt the economy and consumer far more than big business.", name one.
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So what if, Nader was kept out of the debates? Kusinich was in the debates, but did it do him any good?
So you cannot stomoch either party's nominee and want to show it a protest vote.
Go ahead and throw your vote away on somone who will get 1/2 to 3 percent of the the vote in any given state.
The loser in this election might miss you, but I won't. Bye, Bye!
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#181 Reuben34g:
you say "So you cannot stomoch either party's nominee and want to show it a protest vote." Why does it have to be a protest vote? That's the problem with a lot of people, they think that those who vote for third party candidates do it in protest, when a lot do it with conviction with the candidate's proposals. But I guess that's why a lot of people don't mind the current two party system, one party (A) messes things up, people protest and get the other party (B) elected, they screw it up and people protest again to get the other party (A) elected again, and on and on. Keep protesting then, see where's it got you now.
As for "Go ahead and throw your vote away on somone who will get 1/2 to 3 percent of the the vote in any given state.", if your candidate loses, you also threw your vote away then, there's only one winner.
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jalvarezv
I respect your decision to vote for Nader.
Free speech also goes for a free vote, and in that I respect you.
Nader maybe running for his ego but that is pretty normal in politics and at least he is not running in order to try to bring the end times closer ticket of the GOP.
I would also agree that there is almost no chance that he could have made as big of a balls up as Bush ,Cheney have in the last 8 years.
He is after a good goal, as for him not resisting the system.
He is pretty vocal about it. You say Unions killed american economy?
Maybe, to some extent, most systems , (like the police) have problems with entrenched attitudes.
But here is a good example of why that film I mentioned earlier is so worth watching.
There was a vehicle released by GM that could now get 300miles per charge. that is well enough for most commuters.
In 2001 GM dropped and forcibly withdrew ALL of the EV cars.(electric vehicle).
Bush had just given that tax break to commercial vehicles that allowed SUV to be cheaper than otherwise.
GM dropped this emissions free car in favour of the HUMMER.
(If the military procurement industry had not been so in love with the Hummer then we could have had troops in safer vehicles(unfortunately the war was not as easy as GW2 said))
watch this for dummer decisions
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec08/mrapsuccess_07-01.html
Anyway back to the car now called the bummer.
GM jobs are being lost TODAY because they are geared up to make unbelievably stupid vehicles for most peoples needs.
If they had gone to electric vehicles there would be a lot less problems than we have now.
Nader supported the electric vehicles.
In that one decision he has shown better judgement than Bush in 8 years who has consistently failed with the exception of the aids and malaria program.(which just about anyone would have done.)
Now marcus is going to come on and explain how being an electrical engineer he knows this will not work . Coal plants produce lots of crap.
But they DO.
And this would IF WE DID Nothing but coal produce more sulphates in the air leading to acid rain.
which is true.
But we can use other sorts of power, including that form of power he says doesn't work. the SUN.
which but for eclipses stays in the sky most days last i heard.
Solar cell technology has leaped recently.it is possible that if roof were made from solar cells for them to power the US. (especially if they keep building houses no needs.)
Even with coal being used the reduction in co2 is huge compared to lots of little gas powered engines. the plants can be regulated and it is easier "easier to clean one smoke stack then a million tailpipes.
all of this is stuff Nader has addressed and well he should , it is valid in more ways than many would give credit.
Those jobs in GM plants would still be there and possibly expanding.
(OH FORD HAD THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THEIR THINK CAR)
We would not need to be at war for oil.
You could be offering Tehran an alternative to nuke power.
you could breath in the cities.
which makes it easier to bike or walk.
Nader is a smart guy. well smarter than most of his detractors.
As for healthy work places which MA2 I have seen thinks are safe in the US .
China is so bad,Which it is. BuT marcus I could not walk into many companies in the US that are safe except a few like boeing, that compete with and alongside european workers,;) or Union workers.
Most welding shops are down right poisonous with no extraction. and running dualshield or stick.
As for the poor chicken processors
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06272008/watch2.html
you think unions are bad . Not if they protect people from this sort of exploitation.
.
Like I said You vote for Nader. His views are relevent , and the protest should be made. If tit is so far in Obama's direction maybe I will. but first I agree with those that say that the GOP and Mc crime should be stopped.
NAder may have a big ego to run at this time in our eyes but the vote for him will have an impact, when people are not so scared of politics and the other side.(dark side;) they can open up and vote for issues more.
Nader would do well.
Just too many people scared of the GOP and the Cons.
rightfully so they are behaving like parasites.
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MarkfromOxford, #158:
Bush can read?
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Nobody can say Ralph Nader didn't have lots of media coverage in America. He's been in the public eye going back at least to the 1960s when he was a consumers rights crusader. The rest is hogwash. I consider him to be lunatic fringe. He did his best work fighting corruption. He should be eternally grateful to General Motors. Had it not been for their awful car, the Chevy Corvair, nobody probably would ever have heard of him. They'll put it on his tombstone that he won that battle. He should go back to that kind of work, it's what suits him best. Less than 3% of the vote. It was pathetic. Talk about a failed campaign. If it had been a bowling tournament, his would have been all gutterballs.
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, jalvarezv wrote:
# 178 MagicKirin:
"Most of Nader likely voters are still steaming from 1980 and their belief it tokk votes away from Gore." I disagree with this statement, most of the people I know that support him are too young to have been involved in anything in 1980. Regarding taking votes away from Gore, nobody took votes away from Gore (except maybe the judicial system in the Florida fiasco), and the Nader supporters I know definitely do not believe this.
As for "He never attacks govt bureacracy or labor unions who hurt the economy and consumer far more than big business.", name one.
First alot of Nader votes were protest votes. And since most Nader voters are very liberal they are horrified by Bush.
In regard to your second questions: Alot of industries are in bad shape because of the ridicolous Union contracts, the auto industry for one. I've never seen the Union benefit a consumer.
And one of the major reasons the U.S is not as energy independent, is becuase of gov special interest blocking nuclear, Wind and drilling.
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Nah he has an earpiece and someone tells him what it says.
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I hope all of the Bush supporters in the
world don't try to get on an elevator at
once, they might break it.
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Let's be realistic. All of anyone's understanding or knowledge of a situation depends on the information and research received on the subject. Obama made the most important vote on Iraq correctly when he voted against the attack against a sovereign nation because of false information given by the Administration. He sifted through all the briefing materials and arrived at a courageous decision. We are now deeply enmeshed in this chaotic illegal immoral war sanctioned by the majority in Congress, who did not do their homework, and it is difficult to maintain a timely correct appraisal of the situation. We are there and must take responsibility for the horrific destruction we have created. Every day there is a different reading on the whole mess. It is completely understandable that Obama would adjust his withdrawal plans, etc. to take into account the current complex conditions for the best interests of everyone.
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SunshinePlus, let me shed a little light in your dark corner of knowledge so let's be realistic. BARACK OBAMA WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO VOTE ON THE INVASION OF IRAQ, HE WAS NOT IN CONGRESS AT THE TIME. THAT VOTE WAS TAKEN BEFORE THE INVASION IN 2003, HE'S ONLY BEEN IN CONGRESS A COUPLE OF YEARS. HIS INEXPERIENCE IS ONE OF HIS GREATEST WEAKNESSES. LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS YOURS. Why not do a little research before your next posting.
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#189. SunshinePlus "Obama made the most important vote on Iraq correctly when he voted against the attack against a sovereign nation."
Mr Obama was not a US Senator at the time and thus unable to have "sifted through all the briefing materials and arrived at a courageous decision." Although he made a speech opposing the invasion, he did not prevail upon his immediate predecessor in the Senate to vote against it. Four times since then he has voted for additional funds for the military. His position as originally stated was that he "will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months.” His rival for the nomination expressed a more cautious view, rather as he is now doing. Had he campaigned on his present approach to ending US involvement, then it is within the realms of possibility that his appeal would have been less and Mrs Clinton would be where he is today.
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I've never seen the Union benefit a consumer.
Majikin, come now did any one ever tell you what a union is?
It is not by design there to benifit the consumers, but the workers.to give them some rights and to stop them being treated like slaves.
Jobs can be dangerous, unions are meant to try to stop that, be it a mining union or a textile union.
they are there to make sure the workers get paid, in some cases that they get holiday pay.etc.
,If it were for the consumers benefit they would be called slave owners.
because that is what you would have.
It was GM executives that buried the future of the company, all the while they took home better and better pay.
and it is hardly the gov special interests blocking drilling and nukes though probably wind.
that would be the environmentalists and good on them. it shows for once a bit on sense from this otherwise foolish nation.
you are very ignorant.
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190. At 03:08am on 07 Jul 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
SunshinePlus, let me shed a little light in your dark corner of knowledge so let's be realistic. BARACK OBAMA WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO VOTE ON THE INVASION OF IRAQ, HE WAS NOT IN CONGRESS AT THE TIME. THAT VOTE WAS TAKEN BEFORE THE INVASION IN 2003, HE'S ONLY BEEN IN CONGRESS A COUPLE OF YEARS. HIS INEXPERIENCE IS ONE OF HIS GREATEST WEAKNESSES. LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS YOURS. Why not do a little research before your next posting.
Marcus you tell others to check their facts. For ONCE you are almost right but concidering you aliken the c5 transport to an airbus and then tried to argue it for some time. seeing as you denied the liberty ship design flaws at first,
seeing as you deny and insist that blacksmiths shoe horses, I think you are being a little rich here.
the point made that Obama stood up against this war when he had so much to loose showing good judgement is not deniable.
And if he had voted it would have made no difference because the country and many of it's people were dupped into it by lies and innuendo .
So many foolish people thought how good it would work out. Some including you think it is great now.
DC come now I expect better of you.
It was clinton that wanted out date certain and she voted for the war in the first place.
As for funding the war, no he is funding the Troops.
It is they that will die without body armour.
"As President, Hillary will convene her senior military leadership and will direct them to draw up a clear, comprehensive plan for bringing our troops home, beginning in 60 days. " hillary08
Wow two months .
That was one of her selling points she was out quicker than Obama.
She would do whatever the electorate said that week.
Sad DC sad, but still
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I may have to vote republican, after all.
I discovered this old link where Hillary
endorsed the 55mph speed limit.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/11/1148.asp
I remember the 70's when the democrats
put lawyers in charge of car design, outlawed
the convertible, and tried to tell us what is
good for us.
I'd rather live in a country that values innovation
over political correctness.
I should change my handle here to "gunsandreligionandspeed"
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#193. jacksforge "As for funding the war, no he is funding the Troops." That's an extremely fine line between the two. No funding = no troops = no war. Troops + funding = continued hostilities. His change or 'nuanced' position has given the McCain campaign unnecessary ammunition which no doubt will endeavour to demonstrate, as was done to John Kerry, that Mr Obama is a "flip flopper." And the official campaign hasn't even started!
MarcusAII - if you know who King Gama was, you're the living incarnation of him and if not, this will give you clue. There was no reason to be quite as loud and disagreeable in your post #190.
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D-C, this is quite good, actually. How do
I play the soundtrack?
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This is really too bad, I can't play midi files
on my Ubuntu Linux box. I may have to
break down and boot the evil Seattle operating
system, just to hear this.
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jacksforge wrote:
I've never seen the Union benefit a consumer.
Majikin, come now did any one ever tell you what a union is?
It is not by design there to benifit the consumers, but the workers.to give them some rights and to stop them being treated like slaves.
Jobs can be dangerous, unions are meant to try to stop that, be it a mining union or a textile union.
they are there to make sure the workers get paid, in some cases that they get holiday pay.etc.
,If it were for the consumers benefit they would be called slave owners.
because that is what you would have.
It was GM executives that buried the future of the company, all the while they took home better and better pay.
and it is hardly the gov special interests blocking drilling and nukes though probably wind.
that would be the environmentalists and good on them. it shows for once a bit on sense from this otherwise foolish nation.
Jack if you read my orginal post it would be about Nader selective outrage. Unions have never done anything for non orkers. Corps produce a service or good. So a corporate head for the most part benefits society (there are the Enron exceptions) Better them then Roger Poli, George Meany or Lane Kirklands
The environmentalists blocking drilling and Nuclear are mostly luddites and unforunatly they have to much influence with the dems
Get an education before you start spouting your nonsense. Your views are as noxious as Maxine Walters or William Ayers
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Is it possible to debate without casting aspersions on a person's origins, intelligence or education?
One might believe that one's opponent is a perverse idiot but there are more polite ways to say so than some of the posts I have been reading.
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jacksforge, try to focus. I'll try one more time to get through to you. If there had been a market for a passenger plane that could carry 500 to 800 passengers, American aircraft designers already had such an aircraft of comparable size to the A380 for forty years. They had been building the similar sized military cargo plane the C5A successfully for that long. Of course after 40 years it is not similar it its details but it is similar in its size and lift capabilities. The Russians also had a comparably sized air cargo plane and one that is even bigger. Then why didn't they when 80% to 90% of the work would have already been done for them? Because their market research showed them that there was no market for it. Not enough to justify the expense. Boeing's analysis is that ultimately there will only be a market for about 500 of them. Then why did the EU build such a plane, and from scratch where the up front cost of re-inventing that wheel cost them 14 billion taxpayer dollars and was at least two years behind schedule? EADS says there is a potential market for 1200 of them. But is that the real reason? Personally, I suspect it is once more a matter of ego, one upsmanship. They've been jealous of the 747 from the day it made its appearance. Is the A380 another useless monument to ego just like the Concorde was. (America cancelled its SST project around 1970 in which two proposals, one from Lockheed and the winning proposal from Boeing were submitted to Congress in a Contest they ran but Congress changed it mind because the public, environmentalists, and the airlines themselves didn't want it so it was cancelled. BTW, both entries were bigger, and faster than Concorde, and were expected to have made money.) So we'll see if the A380 is the plane of the future or a Eurosauris Rex, another European technological bomb. So far both production of the plane and the parent company have been beset by many major problems. EADS;s Management has been embroiled in a major insider stock trading corruption scandal while the plane has had serious problems with its electrical systems. But if that wasn't enough on EADS's plate, they decided to challenge Boeing's 787 Dreamliner with the A350, another project in serious trouble. Were in not for massive taxpayer subsidies, EADS would have gone broke and disappeared a long time ago. Let's face it, technology is not one of Europe's strong points. What do they do well? I think they've had some very good oil painters in the past. Maybe they should concentrate on things like that.
As I also said, I had forgotten but acknowledged in another thread that the Liberty ships initially had a design flaw which caused metal fatigue and resulted in an unusually high failure rate. Once it was discovered, it was fixed. The US built 4 of these ships a day which travelled in perpetual convoys to keep Britain from starving to death and able to hold out until the American military could win the war in Europe against the Nazis that Britain, France, and Russia had already all but lost. Read about the Battle of the Atlantic if you want to learn about Liberty ships. They fed your parents and kept your parent's nation alive, metal fatige, U-Boat wolfpacks, the rough icy norht Atlantic Ocean, and all notwithstanding.
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Ma just give up on the airbus thing.
I understand your argument but really putting seats in an old military transport is not really the way to build a new plane.
It is you that does not get it.
the air busses wing design saves fuel, it is different in many ways, the plane has a greater payload and significantly better operating costs. It is completely a different plane.
and saying they could put seats in a c5 is really a stupid argument.
I get it that liberty ships brought food to the UK(which they paid for until very recently not a freebe and part of what helped america gain power all that war profiteering).
Noble floridian may have been on one of those ships , where you Noble?
And the americans won no war on their own.
And if they had not waited till the end to join in millions would have been saved in the concentration camps(there that is america's guilt and why they gave Israel to the Zionists).
"So a corporate head for the most part benefits society (there are the Enron exceptions) " majekin
really I thought they profited them selves.
it was the heads of GM that threw the electric car under the remains of the few tram lines they also scrapped.
you knowlage is very warped by what you wish to hear.
You are the sort that thinks mining barons who kill the miners are good for the country.
go check out how many people have died in mines in the UK in the last 10 years , then go check the US statistics.
It is scary how dangerous the american work place is. what job is it that you do.?
the people are also served by leaders that try to protect them from exploitation.
did you check the link to pbs on the great osha , being castrated.
give examples of how the trickle down has worked, because it seems to me and may commentators out there in newshour land that the trickle idea only allows a little and when it is tax free in a OBS account , those waiting for the trickle get zero.
just for once come up with an argument.
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UBS account. not obs.
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#200. MarcusAureliusII"Let's face it, technology is not one of Europe's strong points. What do they do well?" A few examples - the internal combustion engine, the jet engine, the first jet powered commercial airliner, CAT scanners, the incandescent light bulb, the steam engine - and the computer.
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Two comments, please.
First, the sign is a commonplace in some areas of the U.S.. Not all Americans, however, are sympathetic to the sentiment there expressed.
Secondly, Obama has not, in fact, changed but amplified his position on pulling out of Iraq. Americans have little patience for nuanced political arguments or positions. Sen. Obama has simply said too much and said it in too logical a fashion for many Americans to tolerate. We are, I am afraid, a politically-naive electorate.
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So it's move over Ed, Jack is taking over, and with a vengeance! I'm getting tired of the U.S. bashing that is taking place in this column, and would like to point out some truths.
Apart from the fact that it seems that untold millions wish to make this their home, even to the point of becoming felons by breaking our immigration laws, I remind the U.S. bashers that even though it took Pearl Harbor for this country to enter the war, if it hadn't been for that intervention Britain would not have been able to resist the Nazi juggernaut. In 1940, in England, I was patrolling the local golf course in the Home Guard and SHARING a shotgun with my partner! - just one example of how unprepared we were in the early days of the war.
You U.S. bashers/haters remind me of the South Koreans who are protesting the re-importation of American beef after a ban of several years. Isn't that the country where we lost 36,516 G.I.'s dead and when 92,134 were wounded defending them against the invasion from the north? Talk about ingratitude!
Make no mistake, this is the greatest country in the world, with all its faults, and I am proud to be an adopted American!
And with all his faults, carefully pointed out by the Obamaniacs in this column - McCain for President!
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#205. nobleFloridian "this is the greatest country in the world" It's just that kind of braggadocio that gives Americans a bad name. NO country is greatest or best; most of the world's nations have some appeal. Unless you have lived in, say, Switzerland, Australia or Denmark ("the happiest country on earth") then I don't consider that anyone can say what's 'best'. The Letterman show always begins with saying "from New York, the Greatest City in the World" - but is it? The denizens of London, Paris, Sydney, Rio de Janeiro and even Berlin, might well disagree. Great cities, like nations, all have their attraction, but that doesn't make one "the greatest" of them all.
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David_Cunard #203
I'm sure you have a point but I fail to see what it is. Being first doesn't mean being best. And while some inventions were first devised in Europe, most of the developments which made the modern world possible were "made in America."
Yes the light bulb was invented as a curiousity in England BUT, it was perfected by an American, Thomas Alva Edison.
"The inventor Thomas Alva Edison (in the USA) experimented with thousands of different filaments to find just the right materials to glow well and be long-lasting. In 1879, Edison discovered that a carbon filament in an oxygen-free bulb glowed but did not burn up for 40 hours. Edison eventually produced a bulb that could glow for over 1500 hours."
He turned it from just a laboratory curiosity into a practical device used in nearly every home in the world.
A lot of things are like that. The USSR launched the first orbiting satellite Sputnik, a basketball sized sphere with a radio transmitter that went beep beep beep but twelve years later, Three Americans landed on the moon and returned to earth safely just as President Kennedy promised they would. And the mission was repeated twice more by America. NO other nation has even tried such a feat, it is far beyond their capabilities. The USSR came closest.
Yes a European invented the digital computer. Where are Europe's IBMs, its Dells, its Hewlitt Packards, its Cisco Systems, its Apple Computers, its Microsofts, its Intels, its AMDs? Nowhere to be found that's where. Even when Europeans are clever enough they often have to come to America to realize their potential.
If Einstein had stayed in Europe, chances are the Nazis would have murdered him.
Europeans may have invented the internal combustion engine but Henry Ford invented mass production which made it possible for everyone to own a car and the Wright Brothers invented the airplane which made heavier than air flight possible.
I still say that Europe could have a bright future...in oil painting. They've had some great success in prior centuries, perhaps it's a tradition they could rekindle. I like the Dutch masters and the French Impressionists best myself.
BTW, having been born and raised in New York City, I'd say Paris by comparison is a village. A nice looking village but nonetheless a village. Never been to London but I've gotten some depressing reports from trusted friends. New York City undobtedly is the greatest city in the world. That's why Islamic terrorists who want to destroy Western civilization and its culture have made it their primary target.
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David: It is not in my nature to brag - I merely stated the truth. What country gives more money and aid away to the poorer countries of the world than America? The sad part of that is that America does not get the appreciation that it deserves for this generosity.
There is no gainsaying the fact that other countries have their attractions, but I stand by my assertion that America is the greatest of all.
And by the way, I dislike David Letterman, and do not agree that New York is the greatest city in the world. I suggest that London might well qualify for that designation.
P.S. What, no comment on the rest of my blog?
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Obama may give great speeches, but the question still remains: can we trust him. His flip-flops make voters uncomfortable.
One may disagree with McCain on issues like free trade, protectionism, and isolationism, but McCain has a reputation as a straight shooter. He has a record of being a maverick in his own party. We may not agree with him, but we know what we will get with him.
Obama has no record, only a promise of change, but what change? Everyone has their own idea of what Obama is promising -including foreigners. Obama will have to prove that he is honest and trustworthy. McCain has done this already - and alienated the religious right.
Voters in Massachusetts voted in Deval Patrick for governor. He gave great speeches, but has been a failure, both in ideas and in his choice of incompetent people for his administration. He is now preparing to join the Obama administration next year. Great speakers do not make great leaders.
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nobleFloridian, you are going to hear others say that the US donates less per capita as a percentage of GDP to the developing world than many other industrialized nations. That's because they are only looking at what the government donates. That doesn't count the hundreds of billions of dollars given freely and voluntarily every year by private citizens also. This generousity is unprecedented by any other people in any other country. But here's one example of where the US government does give aid that is to fight AIDS in Africa. It has donated more money for that purpose than the entire rest of the world combined. Yes the US donors in this effort emphasize prevention as the preferred way to fight the pandemic. That makes the most sense.
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Obama is in a tight position because he campaged on what he would have done - but he wont have the luxury if elected of going back in time. Most Americans I imagin would agree with him that the US should not have gone into Iraq, But they would also agree that now that we are in, the Surge was a good idea and is helping.
A report came out from the AP yesterday - unreported by the BBC -regarding IRAQs Nuclear program
"The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" - the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment - was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions".
Imagin if it is November and Obama is talking the no WMD story and McCain does a commercial showing tons of yellowcake in Iraq. He would look weak and niave.
I think Obama is a basically honest man who's changes in Iraq policy reflect the fact that he has to let the voters know that he will base his actions on what is going on now on the ground not what the left of his party says he must do. Give him some slack.
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#207. MarcusAureliusII - You had asked of Europeans "What do they do well?" and I provided a very small sampling of the inventions made in Britain. You didn't refer to manufacturing ability, simply technology. Incidentally, you are wrong about the incandescent light bulb, as you will find here and in the Wikipedia entry. The invention of powered flight is attributed to the Wrights, but there are others who did it earlier - just Google the subject should you be interested. There's a whole raft of inventions that the British developed, not least the jet engine, the steam turbine and the ballpoint pen. And lest we forget, where would the American motion picture industry be if it were not for the French pioneers Auguste and Louis Lumiere? There's an endless list of European developments. American national pride cannot deny that European minds and technology have made life far more comfortable and easy - after all, Alexander Graham Bell was a Scot!
Incidentally, you really should bite the bullet and visit London, quite possibly the cultural capital of the world. I tell my British friends that they must visit New York because of it unique qualities, and although it is tremendously crowded, London is to be visited by anyone who hopes to have a broad view of the world. In the days of Empire, which both nobleFloridian and I can remember, London was considered 'the Hub of the Empire', and Piccadilly Circus its centre. It's cheap enough to get there, but extremely expensive to stay.
#208 nobleFloridian - You are entitled to your opinion of course, but saying something is 'the greatest' is subjective and, as a 'citizen of the world', I think it does not behoove one to say one nation is 'greater' than another. That the British Empire was the greatest empire the world has known is subjective, because it's demonstrable on a map, but to equate the generosity of a nation of 300 million people with 'greatness' seems to me to be ill-conceived. Do not forget that for all its military might and generosity, the United States is also the world's greatest debtor nation, giving away money it does not have; if that were an individual, it would be considered fraud. But there's nothing like the zeal of a convert to extol the virtues of something adopted, whether it be the cessation of smoking and drinking, the acceptance of Christ as a personal 'saviour' or the embrace of a new nationality. Your adopted patriotism is laudable but don't let myopia blind you to the virtues of other nations.
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Just a comment on the "greatest cities" debate. Of course "greatest" is entirley in the ey of the beholder and it all depends on what you want out of a place but my greatest destination disappointemnt was New York. Perhaps if I went back I'd get a different perspective - Venice is like that, you need to stay overnight in the quiet times and see the moon light on the canals not just the tourist queues at St Marks before you really appriciate the place. But from my current experience - NY fuggetaboutit ! Sure manhattan looks good from a distance (just like the movies) but once inside the concrete canyons its a dull depressing ugly place with no charm or character full of some of the rudest people. The hotel room was more like a tokyo capsule than a real hotel, the shops were terrible (macy's, bloomingdales were badly oragnised and full of tat - they could learn from John Lewis!!!) Central Park - a boring field. Statten Island Ferry - well at least you could see the Statue of Liberty (always thought she'd be bigger - maybe the French weren't as generous as I'd thought). Food - I can eat better in my local restaurants witout the side order of attitude. The Rockefeller centre - the bigget queue for the smallest ice rink -give it a miss. However Met and the Frick were good (not counting the Fragonard collection in the Frick. Someone saw Henry Clay comming - not every oil painting in Europe is any good!)The only place that comes close as BIG let down is LA. However just so this is not taken as US bashing I loved Boston and thought San Francisco was cool.
Paris is only a short hop form home and for me no year is compete without a trip there.
Marcus you really should visit London. There is so much there and so much in the surounding area. Get out more!!!
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David_Cunard;
Just like Sir Christopher Meyers, you've gotten it wrong but for a different reason. When Owen Bennet-Jones asked him " why are they (Americans) so rich?" his answer was that they were first. The answer of course was as wrong as it was flippant. Not only was Europe around for over a thousand years before America was discovered, the industrial revolution started in Britain, not the US. But the system invented by the US which ultimately stemmed from its three seminal documents that changed the world allowed all inventions to reach their full potential there because the society that was created encouraged and rewarded invention and the exploitation of invention instead of thwarting and punishing it. All of the inventions that were laboratory curiousities in Europe became mass industries in the US. The automobile was one of them. America invented mass production. It invented modern methods of management (something Europe hasn't come close to catching up with it seems as its autocratic culture fails to grasp the superiority of decentralization of power down to the lowest level and then holding those responsible for it to account) and it invented quality control, even if the US car industry shunned it for decades almost resulting in its demise. (How do you think the Japanese learned how to build the most reliable cars in the world?) American industry is also born out of a culture which places high value on individual initiative, indivudual enterprise, and hard work. As a result, America coming from literally nowhere sped past every other nation individually and now even as aggregate blocs. Not that it didn't have other advantages too like isolation and vast natural resources. Its relative freedom and its limitless opportunity which does not deal a fatal blow to failure but always presents new opportunities has drawn the best and brightest from all over the world like a magnet because that is where they flourish best to their own benefit and to society. It also has the world's best schools for transferring advanced knowledge at the University level. By comparison, Europe is a technological backwater that is fading fast.
Young-Mr-Grace
I was born and raised in New York City. I have visited a large number of cities around the world although not London, Berlin, or Rio de-Janero (after my experience with anti-semitism at that German rathskeller In Bordeaux I will never set foot on German soil.) Even to this native New Yorker who knows the city well, it is at times overwheming. It is not build and does not operate on terms scaled to human dimensions I can easily deal with. As a place to live I much preferred Montreal and San Francisco even more. But, I have to say that in practically every meaningful field of human endeavor, the New York Metropolitan area and New York City seems to be at the center of it all. That is why I choose to live on its fringes where I can have ready access to it when I need to, respite from it most of the rest of the time.
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Marcus Aurelius II
I am saddened to hear that you experienced anti-semitic behaviour in Europe. Unfortunately such disgracefull attitudes are still with us (incredible as that seems after all that has happened on our continent) and racism is still a plague. I can only offer you my appologies for the unacceptable behaviour of some Europeans.
I would accept that NY is a place of power and influence and that on that score it qualifies as "great" however I would contend that there are other qualities (livability being one) which can be applied to cites and on which NY falls short. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive - at the height of it's empire Rome would have been a terrible place to stay.
You are right to point out that modern management is a US invention (even the Dilbert parody of it is US) and the development of modern production techiques took place in the US but would be good to acknowledge that the US has not done these things in isolation. Wihtout Adam Smith's examination of the manufacture of the humble pin Henry Ford would not have built cars on an assembly line, Without the works of David Hume, John Locke, Thomas Paine and others the declaration of independence and the federal structure of the US would not have been as they are. The US has not just existed for 200 years it has shared roots in european civilisation. It has taken some of the best ideas of Europe and put them into practice. As with all human endeavour it has not always lived up the high ideals. Europe has needed America and America has needed Europe.
You're all doing very well !!
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#214. MarcusAureliusII You write a good line but you can never bring yourself to agree that perhaps once in awhile you could be incorrect; with regret, that's a major character flaw. To say "All of the inventions that were laboratory curiousities in Europe became mass industries in the US" is patently nonsense. Had you qualified your statement and replaced 'all' with 'many' or even 'most' that might be acceptable, but 'all' is so sweeping as to be inaccurate. There's more to life than the automobile. Without inventions, regardless of manufacturing capability, there can be no progress.
Incidentally, Americans are no longer "so rich" compared with their European counterparts. As suggested before, just visit London and the United Kingdom and you'll find that, contrary to yesteryear, Britons have everything that Americans have, and possibly more. They took time to catch up, but in many ways they have overtaken America in the availability of consumer goods. To say that "Europe is a technological backwater that is fading fast" shows an ignorance of what that continent can and does achieve.
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That's a great picture Justin! Although I plan to vote for Obama there is a gun or two I will try to pick up before January. A democratic controlled presidency and congress will almost certainly result in further restrictions to gun ownership as well as a ban on "assault weapons" and a broader definition of that class of weapons. I want to get that saiga while it's still legal!
One thing I find disturbing about the gun debate is this coupling of home/personal defense or the right to hunt and the right to own guns. What's wrong with just wanting to shoot targets?
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Jack's blog 201: I wasn't on one of those Liberty ships that carried those vital supplies to Britain and to our Russian allies, but I WAS on a destroyer that escorted those brave merchant seamen who were at the mercy of the U-Boats, and bombers based in Norway, on the way to Russia.
At the risk of hurting the sensibilities of both those berating me in this column, and my sister in England, for my "obtuse" use of the word greatest as applied to America, I claim that those who sailed in merchant ships in WWII were indeed the "greatest" heroes of that epic struggle.
Berate me for that if you dare!
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Young-Mr-Grace 215
"I am saddened to hear that you experienced....."
Why, I accept the world for what it is. I don't pretend that it is something that it isn't or that I can change it. I simply make the best life I can for myself in whatever circumstances I find the world exists in. And I understand what Europe was, is, and probably always wil be. My commets here are just my observations and reactions to what I've seen and learned over a lifetime. If I don't think much of Europe, just recall that I experienced it first hand and put that experience in context with the other experiences I've had elsewhere. BTW, others around us including many French people observed what was going on and I made quite a spectacle so that they couldn't ignore it. And at the time, I spoke fluent French. And what was their reaction? Utter indifference. I have no illusions.
I don't know how New York ranks in liveability. Like most large cities around the world it has a very wide variety of neighborhoods. I grew up in Queens in a suburban community that was quiet and peaceful. There are many such neighborhoods throughout the outer borroughs. Some parts of Staten Island are almost rural. But I don't want to live in any city or even the suburbs now. I prefer the peace and quiet of a rural area. I've painted the town red until the small hours more than enough times for it to thrill me anymore. Anyway, I still have access in day trips to all New York has to offer if I want it and that is plenty.
Everyone wants to take credit for the invention of America. Well Britain wouldn't have been invented if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the apple and been thrown out of Eden. So what. What matters is that American society is unique and was an original invention. This was not some abstract theory Europeans love to spend endless decades postulating, it was the invention of a real society through living documents which stood the test of time, over two centuries now.
David_Cunard just look around you. From the monent you awaken to the moment you got to sleep, most of what you come in contact with has been made possible only through the result of American inventsions...such as mass production. Americans are the world's best engineers because their entire civilization depended on and rewarded practical answers that worked in solving real world problems.
I have no desire to travel anymore, I've traveled enough. I've been in over forty countries and nearly half the US states. It's bad enough I have to travel on business around the US and Canada. I think tourism travel is highly overrated. Least pleasant of all is those horrible airplane trips and airports. And I am not interested in seeing any more dead monuments. You've seen one big arch or statue in a public square, you've seen them all. Who cares?
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#219. MarcusAureliusII "From the monent you awaken to the moment you got to sleep, most of what you come in contact with has been made possible only through the result of American inventsions" (sic)
Let's see - the flush toilet, automobile, television and radio, the electric light bulb, photography, the heart of the microwave oven, motion pictures, float glass (that's the perfectly flat kind), railway locomotive, tin cans, disc brakes, polyester, radar, and of course, the World Wide Web. And that's just a small sample!
Since you dislike air travel, why not go by ship - you can still cross the Atlantic and the Pacific by sea, and very comfortably as well. And no jet lag!
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Slight typo there - "colleage"
Otherwise enjoyed the piece.
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David_Cunard
First of all, as I said, even many of the people who invented things for the modern world had to come to America to do it. Bell, a Canadian with the telephone is an example. The lightbulb was a 10 minute lab curiousity until Edison turned it into a 1500 hour practical device. But even that would have meant nothing without Edison and Westinghouse pioneering power distribution. Television was invented by the American Farnsworth but even if you think Sarnoff who stole it from him was the inventor, he came to America to develop it. And for all of it, without the techniques of mass production, huge modern corporate structures with their advanced management and marketing techniques all invented in America, none of this would have reached the masses, they would have been for the handful of idle rich. Until Ford, automobiles were made like horse drawn carriages in small craftwork shops. This is how everything was made. Without that, none of the rest would have mattered.
I've been on 23 cruises. I have had enough of that too. I just don't want to travel anymore. I live in a beautiful rural area of rolling farm country, small villages and towns, but if I want to travel, I'm only a little over an hour's drive from New York City and Philadelphia. I've also never been to Washington DC. I have enough frequent flier miles from business travel to fly just about anywhere for nothing. I've just had enough of travel. I no longer feel the need to "see it live" when I can just watch it on TV. And the nice thing about for example not going to Scotland is that I don't have to beg off haggis as politely as I can or endure the pipes.
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As to McCain:
He insists that the USA should have remained in VietNam and "won".
He talked about a liberal religious attitude and then went and made a fundamentist speech at a very fundamentalist "university".
He made nice speeches against torture and then supported legislation continuing the practice and setting up the fake "Military Commissions" in Guantanamo.
Yes, he "sounds" like a straight talker.
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"218. At 7:47pm on 08 Jul 2008, nobleFloridian wrote:
Jack's blog 201: I wasn't on one of those Liberty ships that carried those vital supplies to Britain and to our Russian allies, but I WAS on a destroyer that escorted those brave merchant seamen who were at the mercy of the U-Boats, and bombers based in Norway, on the way to Russia.
At the risk of hurting the sensibilities of both those berating me in this column, and my sister in England, for my "obtuse" use of the word greatest as applied to America, I claim that those who sailed in merchant ships in WWII were indeed the "greatest" heroes of that epic struggle.
Berate me for that if you dare!"
Why would I I said thanks to them before I even started . matey.
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As for this america builds what the rest of the world invents.
It is true and would refer you'll to waste your time going back to the long winded argument between MA me and ED about this. where I dared suggest the US was like russia with out dated tech everywhere, no more apparent than its cars.
To which america innovative creative etc. arguments started.
one day america invented it all , now we get a begrudging, well euro's just never saw the market argument. If DC keeps up(nice work DC) we may get to the OH WE ALL RELLY ON EACH OTHER. then we will be at the one we were looking for.
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#222. MarcusAureliusII: You really should pursue employment in politics as a spin-master. Alexander Graham Bell was born and grew up in Scotland before going to Canada. The light bulb was not "a 10 minute lab curiousity" and if you care to read the links I provided earlier you will see how wrong you are. Swan and Edison joined forces to produce the Ediswan company. Edison's power was DC, which did not succeed. Again, you're wrong about television - and BTW, Britain had the first regular television service. Why is it that you can't concede that perhaps something good or useful has come out of Europe? We can acknowledge that the transistor was made possible by Americans, likewise the escalator. The way you write it is if nothing brilliant was ever done on the other side of the ocean, east or west.
"I've been on 23 cruises." Ah, wealthy and bitter as well! A cruise is not the same thing as a Transatlantic crossing, as the company which bears my name will attest. It doesn't appear as if anything makes you happy, the exception perhaps is being argumentative and disagreeable in print.
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Marcus: Since you have never been to Washington, DC I urge you to do so ASAP if only to see the World War II Memorial. Anyone visiting that wonderful tribute to WWII veterans who doesn't have a tear in their eye when stepping on to those hallowed grounds is not only insensitive but unpatriotic. To watch young people surrounding WWII vets and asking for photographs and stories about their service is an experience to remember.
As for me, I cried like a baby as soon as I stepped on to that beautiful tribute to the boys who became men in those far-off, epic days.
As for David's 226, our first television in England was a Baird 9in. and the first program at, I recall, 4 p.m., was either Andy Pandy or The Flowerpot Men. The kids loved it!
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But, [Obama] added, "I have always said I would listen to the commanders on the ground. I have always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed. When I go to Iraq and have time to talk to the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information."
[Washington Post reference at the top of the blog]
Obama, you need to have some way to find out what's really happening. My experience of governmental lines of command does not give me confidence that what you will learn, especially as simply the Democratic nominee, will even closely approximate to anything even vaguely resembling truth. Even a person who is confirmed to be at the apex of the pyramid will be told what all of those in the food chain below have a vested interest in telling him. Most have reputations to protect, histories of previous dealings to justify. Few and far between are those whose consciences will cause them to speak out against a cock-up of monumental proportions, especially if they will be incriminated personally in criminal offences, loss of job, etc, etc, etc, ...
You are going to need to agree some sort of amnesty if you are serious, but then forgiveness between humans is a two-way street, and therein lies the key to bringing an end to any conflict.
If you are invested with this office, Obama, you must do everything in your power to avoid being corrupted by it. Many millions of people are hoping for an agenda that departs radically from the usual one.
I wish you well.
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228
Adrian, nice plea, I hope he and whoever else is out there hears your plea.
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And again(blue jay take note) the debate of who invented what comes up, ,because MA cannot just get over the fact that a LOT of stuff was Not invented in the USA.
Even Ice cream .
One day you say america invented all worthwhile in the world not it matters not because USA made commercial success out of these inventions(read as PATENT even if someone else invented or discovered it).
Which is it what side are you on. your arguements(for that is what they are) are flip floppy,man.
real like fluid,depending on the day. Did america invent all worth while in the world or did they not?
Simple
As to the obama thing well it dosn't matter really so few actually listen to him anyway . they just hear what they want and make up what he says from the conversations in their own heads.
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#227. nobleFloridian "our first television in England was a Baird 9in. and the first program at, I recall, 4 p.m., was either Andy Pandy or The Flowerpot Men. " Couldn't resist the mention of The Flowerpot Men - "oddle-oodle-oddle" and "we-e-e-e-e-e-e-d". We've come a long way since then! No doubt you'll remember 'Cafe Continental' and 'The Quatermass Experiment'. How Britain has changed!
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I've been traveling a lot recently so I'm not up to date.
So can anybody tell me whethere there's any position left sen. Obama hasn't reversed himself on yet?
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David 231: You bet we remember "The Quatermass Experiment"! We couldn't wait for each episode and it scared the heck out of us each time!
Jack: As I recall, it was extreme left-leaning Rep. Charlie Rangel, chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee, who touted the return of the draft. That upset many of his liberal friends in the party and, probably in one of those "smoke-filled" rooms, Charlie was suitably chastised and hastily backed off his idea.
I strongly support the return of the draft, if only for the reason that the services will right the wrongs that our failed education system has wrought on students. Continuing education benefits come with service, and the career opportunities are endless. Ask any retired service person who came out after 20 years or more with a nice pension, then had another career that provided him or her with more benefits. I know several such people.
And for the record on this blog site, watch your pocket book if Obama wins the White House. Charlie Rangel, who I admire for his war record and not for his politics, will be rubbing his hands with glee knowing that Obama will not veto any of his free- spending bills. So think twice before you vote for Obama!
By the way, Jack, do you know what happened to Ed?
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Noble
I think he might find this all too boring.
Just the one little note,but maybe he feels he is Bashing his head against a brick wall in here.
I doubt it, probably busy in the craft show season.
Ed
How's your health? We just can't understand how you could not be here for all this ever so intellectual debate? :)
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