Has alcohol sapped the British spirit?
Ages ago someone suggested I might compare my experience of the Isle of Wight with life in the US and I resisted the temptation (could only lead to trouble) but this postscript to the discussion on this site about why some Brits like America and are so optimistic about it, raises (in a few of the links) one of the principal issues I would have raised myself had I addressed the US/US topic with total honesty: everyone in the UK is drunk!
Well, not everyone. But public drunkenness - people shouting in the street drunkenness - is simply much less common in comparable areas of the US.
And I agree as well that Americans take themselves more seriously. Sometimes too seriously for my tastes.
But this seriousness gives individuals an inner strength - a dependability - that some Brits lack.
Again, these are generalisations that cry out to be contradicted by individual examples (drunken American college students, or Gordon Brown's seriousness) but in general I think they ring true.
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Clearly you have never been to Key West or Fort Lauderdale during Spring Break!
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All I can say is I've known quite a few Brits and I've never noticed the problem.
And as far as Americans go: check out spring break in Florida sometime!
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The percentage of idiots in the US and Britain is exactly the same.
We just find other ways to express our idiocity ...
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Justin you are correct. I've visited many capital cities throughout the world and nowhere have I seen more puffy faced, red eyed out-of-control human disasters, and more vomit on the floors of trains and buses, than in London. Actually one place that's worse is Manchester, where late on a Saturday night the streets are filled with the traditional sound of fat women standing in the street shouting. What they shout about, who can tell?
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Great topic Justin. I agree with much of the article. We Brits tend to use alcohol as a coping mechanism. We are overworked, overtaxed and over-stressed and don't have the sense of patriotism, national identity and duty that you see in America.
To put it simply and without wishing to over-generalise, we have lost that sense of pride in our local communities. In the urban areas especially, very few of us know our neighbours. We just don't seem to care anymore and we've been consumed by cynicism, fear and bitterness. That is why somebody like Obama and the American Dream, cheesy as it is, remains so attractive to us.
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I must disagree with you, Cyril, on a couple of points. As an American ex-pat living in Britain, I just can't agree that Britons (on the whole) are overworked. Any country that has 4 weeks holiday mandatory by law does not have an overworked populace.
I don't think it's a sense of patriotism that keeps Americans working so many more hours than our European counterparts, either. It's simply how we put food on the table and a roof over our heads.
As for the public drunkenness, I think the main deterrent in the states is simply the laws. Aside from events such as spring break, a person being drunk and belligerent in public as apt to be arrested and spend the night in the drunk tank. In the UK, it appears they're just ignored.
I do agree that Britons rely far more heavily on alcohol than most Americans over the age of about 22, though. It's truly saddening to me, the culture of drunkenness here. I never expected it to be this bad.
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seeing as you guy make a very nice 15th place on the table of average alcohol consumption per 2003 (couldn't find newer data- form the EU) at 9.3 liters a year. You would have to claim that all of western Europe has had it's spirit sapped. In addition the USA has one of 8.3 liters per year- so it's not much off. Honestly I think it is a matter of well earned cynicisms and wealth- not alcohol.
Personally I agree with with the point of personal ambition and self confidence though.
Just stop blaming my pint- as a scientist I'd suggest you try going to a conference end of happenings party to see if the worlds best brightest have a drink- they do - probably 10.
It might affect my long term health- but that will probably be after my financially productive life.
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The trend in the US is cutting back on the drink as there are not too many places one can go for a drink that you can walk to . Enforcement of the drunk driving laws is serious and antional in scope and I thnk it has tempered the taste for a few beers on the way home .
I am old enough to recall however a much different culture in America when the driving laws were more lax and happy hour at some places was three for one .
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And to minsue- so there must be a huge number of Americans who drink excessively at home or something? I mean after all you have more people who abstain entirely (or say they do) a higher drinking age and still have 92.4% of the alcohol consumption? By the way the statistics were wrong above- the US is at 8.6 liters of pure alcohol per year per capita (over 15).
By the way as an outsider I don't thing the British drink that much they just do it in public- as in bars and pubs. But then again I'm a citizen of one of the nations that scores higher.... (Denmark 9.8 per 2003)
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Again, these are generalisations that cry out to be contradicted by individual examples (drunken American college students, or Gordon Brown's seriousness) but in general I think they ring true. "
Ever so slightly undercut by the fact that the current US president apparently liked a drink and, according to some reports, has returned to the bottle.
Certainly his utterances could be better explained that way.
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The references to Spring Break in Florida miss the basic point, I believe. Certainly each country has its share of drunks and serious people. But the entertainment district of an American city is not full of people vomiting in the street, urinating everywhere, vandalizing things, and fighting. From my admittedly limited experience in Britain, all of these considered perfectly normal there, or at least expected. And it's not only at night. My wife and I had lunch in a pub in the City of London in the middle of a work day. It was full of what looked like bankers (all men, it should be noted) having a liquid lunch that seemed endless and watching football. Our Wall Streeters party hard too, but they don't do it in the middle of the trading day. They're deadly serious then.
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Larskjaer, a lot of Americans drink at home, yes. A beer or six while watching a ball game, etc. A drink or two after work. Whatever.
And a lot of Americans drink at bars or clubs and then take a cab home or, sadly, get in their cars and hope they don't get pulled over or kill anyone.
But the culture of alcohol does definitely seems to be bigger on this side of the pond. Granted, I am not a drinker anymore, but just going about my daily life here I know far more people who regularly go through a bottle or two of wine a night or pint upon pint of beer than I came across in the States.
I think lawchicago had a good point as well. Americans aren't generally able to walk down to the local pub and get drunk. That probably has a lot to do with the number of drunks on the streets here versus back home.
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To neutrino99 - I couldn't agree more.
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I'm sure your paid by the British taxpayer to tell us about what's happening in the US, not to share your at-a-distance thoughts about life back in Britain. Sorry to be so blunt but for a while this blog was required reading - now it just seems like an after-thought.
If there's nothing much happening in the Presidential campaign, tell us about something else. Go to Baltimore and tell us whether politics there is just like The Wire, go to California and assess Scharzenegger's record on the environment, go to Massachussets and see if Mitt Romney's health reforms are working.
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I have been very drunk plenty of times in my life, and yet I haven't caused trouble, victimised anyone, attacked anyone or been arrested. Same goes for practically all of my friends aside from the odd good-natured prank that perhaps looked a little foolish the next day.
IMO the violent, and abusive drunks who blight our town centres are fundamentally nasty people who, when sober, manage to somewhat keep a lid on their unpleasantness. The alcohol simply reveals their true character.
The spirit was already sapped, alcohol is just showing us for the nation of angry, selfish, nasty people we seem to have partly become.
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To Long Orange Arms.
Your post is correct. But it isn't just England who has a culture of sapped spirits, angry, selfish, nasty people. Half of my country is just like yours. And these people don't even have to drink to become that way. They are nasty to your face without the effects of alcohol percolating in the blood stream.
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Hello, Cyril_Croydon, I read your post with great interest, as you could be from any working class community in the US.
As to our patriotism and identity, In the United States it's like this;
Me and my brother against Dad, Us against dads brothers, sisters and in-laws, we the family against the City, we the City against the State, The State being us against the Fed, and us (inclusive nationally)against the world.
Show us an alien, and "we the world" will prevail.
I love the American Dream, though Obama may be right or wrong, he's not my choice. Nothing cheesy about this, but history told me that there is none as patriotic as Britons given a cause, could I be wrongly informed.
Step 1 "I am an alcoholic", and thats as far as i got on the twelve step plan, the other steps have been controled by the economy, gas or beer, beer or my job, no job, no more beer or gas. 'the wife'.
Freddie the freak brother had it right sort of:
"Drugs (alcohol) will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no drugs (alcohol)"
And a still is legal as long as you don't sell... I think, er hope.
peace brothers
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Interesting comments. Alcoholism is a very severe problem in the US, but it's probably more hidden.
I have noticed that public displays of drunkenness are far more common in Britain than in the US. But that doesn't mean people drink less as a whole.
There is a strong stigma regarding drunkenness in public places in the US. There is just as much a stigma, now, in regards to smoking in many places. Different countries have different ideas of what is acceptable.
Very young people are allowed to get away with it, but only duing that period of life.
As for a greater sense of responsiblity - I suppose that's true. I was surprised by that. I hadn't thought of it.
I would say that it is far more acceptable in Britain to complain and grumble and gripe as part of everyday conversation. In the Us, however, serious anger is probably more of a problem, and of course violence is much worse in the US than in Britain. It might be healthier for us to be more accepting of low-level grumbling. The requirements to be nice can be tiring, although it's true that it is regional. NYC is very different than the midwest. Texas is very different than California or New England.
So it's a trade-off.
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Been to a "story meeting" Doug?
Great summary.
Slainte! (in moderation)
ed
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But Justin, we have become like this because our society is becoming MORE LIKE America, not less !!
If we became more like France, there might be some hope - but the more we become like the States [crap services, more unequal pay, dog-eat-dog] the worse it will get..
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I've noticed Americans do take themselves very seriously. From the Americans i've met, any criticism they don't agree with receives a barrage of counter-criticism.
I think part of it is that most elements of the country encourage patriotism. The media encourages it, most people encourage it, there's the 4th of July, and they welcome immigrants while expecting them to integrate - as opposed to allowing the divides which appear in this country.
The drinking age of 21 wouldn't go down well here, but I think it helps keep kids on the straight and narrow. By the time they're 21, a lot of Americans will have worked out how to look after themselves. With the British drinking limit, you can vote, buy alcohol, and usually have to pay your way in the world all at once.
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Minsue, according to some surveys, we work the longest hours in Europe, especially if you're in the private sector.
However, compared to America, perhaps it's about the same. I don't know.
My point about patriotism is not so much related to working hard, but more to do with civic pride and duty, which we don't seem to have here (in the cities anyway). Most people are not "proud" of where they live so they don't really care what happens to it. If we see some yobs or vandalism, we don't try to clean it up, we just cross the road and get home asap.
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While alcoholism is a major problem, the biggest curse to our societies is drug addiction. If the news and government statistics are correct, and I don't have any reason to doubt them, the problem that afflicts British society is also destroying people of all ages in continental Europe and the USA. The difference, as mentioned by other posters, are the laws that prohibit public drinking and drug use in the USA; and the penalties - including imprisonment - for those that violate alcohol and drug abuse laws. I was shocked by the scenes I saw in Europe the last time I was there.
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"I've noticed Americans do take themselves very seriously. From the Americans i've met, any criticism they don't agree with receives a barrage of counter-criticism."
Gryf89:
Ha! You folks are exactly the same. We receive far more criticism than you do because we are a bigger player on the world stage. For better or worse, it's a fact.
During the Victorian and Edwardian eras you were top dog, so to speak, and received just as much criticism as we do now.
Criticizing Americans to our faces is far more acceptable in Europe than criticism of Europeans would ever be in the US. That is quite a shock: the fantastic level of open rudeness.
It isn't a matter of like or dislike at all - it's the fact that ridicule and insults are socially acceptabe in Britain. There is a strong taboo against that in the US.
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Cyril, I agree that the average UK employee works more hours than in most of Europe. It is only because I come from an environment where the hours worked tend to be longer than here with fewer days off that it is difficult for me to accept the "overworked" label. It's just a cultural difference.
Sorry for wandering so far off topic!
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Minsue,
Goes with the territory, don't it?Slainte!
ed
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For those who question why the Brits drink so much, take a look at Nick Robinson's Newslog on this site and ask yourself whether you could handle that sober.
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"But Justin, we have become like this because our society is becoming MORE LIKE America, not less !!
If we became more like France, there might be some hope - but the more we become like the States [crap services, more unequal pay, dog-eat-dog] the worse it will get.. "
Lord gelert:
Why on earth are you turning into Americans or French or anything else?
You are one of the world's great nations. Also, three great and ancient nations: England, Scotland, Wales - each stand alone as well as together. And for those of you who think we don't know which is which, remember that YOU are the ones calling yourselves Britain, so that is the term we use.
Why copy anyone else? You have been through so much and survived through so many centuries. !n 1940 you fought off the greatest threat in your history and impressed the world. Now you're throwing in the towel and turning into Americans or FRENCH?
1,000 years of, shall we say, ambivalent relations with the French, and you want to become more like them?
Just stand up for what you are. There is a great deal to be proud of.
(And please tone down the whining and the griping.....)
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#5 #14
Finally, Justin Webb shows a glimmer of intellectual inquiry! Bravo!
My experience with British commoners is limited to France and Portugal.
I found an absurd arrogance in that they sought to impose their ways on the locals, assuming that they knew what was right.
From history, I would generalize that the natural expression of Britain is piracy.
By contrast, the most civilized man I ever knew was a roommate who was the son of an Oxford don.
Perhaps there is something to the "class system"?
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Maybe someday you'd like to compare your experience of life in the U.S. with life in a stinking refugee camp in Palestine or Afghanistan or Latin America or inumerable other places past, present, and no doubt future, that have experienced the devastating effects of American intervention and predation. Actually, you don't even have to go that far, there is another America outside of the toney suburban neighborhoods of places like Bethesda and such - rundown urban and rural hovels where America's dispossessed congregate. You'll find plenty of alcahol and other salves there, and plenty of rude behavior. It's still not nearly as harmful as the casualties of American foreign policy. but there is a growing underclass in America apparently invisible to foreign coorespondents living in some sort of rose-tinted bubble.
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Justin time, Ed, I regressed to some of my earlier 'Story Meetings' revisited here and right on topic. :) Read like a dime mystery novel on bad T.V.
Al Coholight, hard woking man of British decent, now living amongst the cowbells of the Broken Back mountain, some where in the States.
Al, long time friend and distant family to the Cohols of Europe decided to build a wall to the south of the new territory. Seem they're importing some form of 'Mescal" in liquid form.
We all know that "Mescal", street name "Tequila" is the entry level drug for the use of, say it with me children, "Marijuana".
Given to the many reports of the this 'evil' we know it can cause the loss of "patriotism, self worth, employment and,.. yes, even the loss of 'manners'.
I call for 'we' as a world, to wipe out this 'EVIL' scourge and give our people the much needed lift above the toilet bowl.
If 'Manners' were still prevailing, we'd hold her hair.
Be not discouraged as I have found the cure, a medicine to battle the fatigue that plagues the 'mescal and marijuana' addicts.
Praise be to Asians, "Methamphetimines" give us back our freedom to "feel good", to take our battle the work place, provides patriotism for our Countries, and ... restores "Manners"
Now we stand United a yell out LOUD,
"Tear down this wall",.. no thats not it,..
"OBAMA" "OBAMA" "OBAMA"
slainte, smile awhile and dance
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to timsingapore
I never realised that fat women sound different from thin ones!
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TimothyR444
Right, give it to 'em.
There is not a single reason for anyone to lack other than your own loss of pride or backbone.
Don't know your neighbor, have em over for drinks. Or just drink in the front yard or on the corner, share.
ah well, work to do
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TimothyR444:
The same people criticise my country as fly off the handle at others who criticise theirs, and the vast majority of people hear their criticisms of us and couldn't care less.
The key is that Britain has huge apathy to most things, whereas America has an unshakable self belief. Britain isn't the 'top dog' anymore, but I think there's a lot more to it than the frequency of insults. Talk to a Frenchman about England and you'll get just as many insults towards them as Europeans offer at Americans.
There's a different mindset. Britain's mindset is worrying. It will be a major factor to any future split of the British Union.
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I take exception to the premise of the "postscript," which attributes American values to our Puritan heritage. The (English) Puritans were a relatively small group compared to the Scotch Irish (as we say), or Ulster Scots. The former were concentrated in New England and were primarily motivated by religion. The latter group was larger, more widely distributed, and motivated more by economics. The Scotch Irish were the activists behind the American Revolution.
Of course there were several other significant groups of immigrants from all over Europe after the Revolution. If there is a common thread leading to American values, it is that Americans came from people who were willing to leave their homeland behind and endure hardship for the opportunity to build a new life free from whatever constraints held them back in the old world.
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Freddie the freak brother had it right sort of:
"Drugs (alcohol) will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no drugs (alcohol)"
And a still is legal as long as you don't sell... I think, er hope.
peace brothers
Doug he exan.
on that I will agree.
I don't drink anymore but I certainly have no problem with all around being drunk.
Though I did try to comment once on Hillery showing some classic beligerent alcoholic symptoms during her champain, but the mods thought them too off topic for some reason.
Both countries drink like fish , though the americans are better at avoiding the pub and getting togeather with kegs and offey beer. that I find refreshing , allows all to have fun.
:;:)
Boom
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It's next to impossible to have a social life in the UK without partaking of the drinking culture. I think that young people use it to reduce inhibitions and increase the likelihood of engineering sexual encounters. Those who are older use it as an anaesthetic to help them 'cope' with the responsibilities that they've accrued as a result of such encounter(s).
The British are especially accomplished at getting pished (hic!) although I've certainly been in the company of Americans of a similar propensity. I recently spent some time in Italy where Italians tend to drink to savour the taste, and a group of young ones will happily share a single beer between them during the course of an evening ... although older ones think that Italian youth are increasingly following the British example.
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strange thought the perceptions of lazy pot heads really.
I mean alchies make great poets writers,painters,
but not very good olympic snow boarders,or jugglers.
Having lived in that blessed land below the seas I have come to appreciate the world of working drug users.
Why the methheads were up for hours,overtime central.
Not so reliable or accurate but they worked like a bugger.
(in the states clean for a drug test in days)
The pot heads just did the job consistantly did OT but not full doubles.
the drinkers did the min and were out.
Take me to a forge in holland and I wills how you how to forge frogs in record time.
Still not that psycho stuff they have in the states.
just that stuff imported from countries we are normally fighting.
And then they will be trading partners and have yet another reason not to fight us,the US
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Doug that was texan
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Gryff99
I'll have to ask for help here, but I think it was 'dogslifeblog' or such, that gave me a different take on the Brits. Here now, he was one up for the challange of life. This statement :
doesn't match what I hear here. Nor does it jive with what my Brother in Afganistan says about his British comrades, equals all the way. And as to France, who cares of the insults, here I get Texass all the time from Jack, alcoholic firebug that he is.
I think we need to send Obama to England as prime minister and get your spirits up.
Works for me!! Texass, sure is flat here, hot too.
BTW, we do shoot first, but don't ask questions, we explain.
Just to happy, new job offer has me floatin'
money money money
namaste()
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Re: #30
"My experience with British commoners is limited to France and Portugal."
Your view is skewed then, I would say. When I lived in Paris I observed the Brits behave like utter asses in France. I've never experienced anything quite like it anywhere else. They go out of their way to be rude and generally unpleasant. Talk about having a chip on their shoulders!
I found it shocking because that's not who they are elsewhere. They're typically polite and easy going. I enjoy their company.
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poligyies jack, know ya don't drink. me i am noew. state employers and uninion require drug test gfrequently. whooo
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@24 DominickVila - The laws exist, but noone enforces them for lack of interest or greater profit.
@29 TimothyR444 - Come 2010 you won't have to know the difference as Britain won't exist (well maybe).
@34 DougTexan - I know my neighbours, I simply don't like them.
My own person opinion is based on a numbers rule. It's not that a greater percentage of people in the UK drink more than people in the US, it's that they do it together. The City Councils in their infinite wisdom have decided over the decades that the best way to deal with people drinking is to move all the bars and clubs together. Rather than having a few quite pubs spaced far apart you end up with 30 or 40 bars and clubs within a square mile, with all those drunk people all trying to get a burger from the same van or one of the few available taxis home, fights and arguments are bound to break out, coupled with the appaling lack of public ammenities in British City Centres and you end up with people throwing up in alleyways and urinating behind bins. At 4am on a Saturday morning it seems terrible, but just a few hours later those same streets are clean and filled with families enjoying a day out or little old ladies off to the Bingo.
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Gary,
Interestingly, a good number (mostly highlanders) fought on the wrong side and had to go to Canada. It's especially weird, in that many of them were in America because their English landlords had forced them onto the boats, and yet they turned out for the "loyalists", then in Canada, it was the Scots who finally trounced the French....I recommend "A Dance Called America" By James Hunter for a good tale with pretty good historical basis in these matters.
The Scots/Irish are still strong in the Appalachians, and Jim Webb considers them his people. Of course, there's more to Scots and Irish than Ulster folk - the highlanders and lowlanders and "bog Irish" are quite different from Ulster folk, and wouldn't thank you for bagging them all thegither. No more than Canadians like to be mistaken for Americans...
Slainte
ed
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If you want to see people getting drunk and making fools out of themselves:
Here are a few places
Spring break in FL
Las Vegas Conventions
The Democratic and Republican conventions unless you are the nominee
New Orleans during Mardi Gras(and you will be picked up by the police)
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Ed (#45), I'm Scots-Irish (mostly) myself, and thank you for the information.
BTW, on the previous thread there was a remark by one poster seeming to say that "English" was an Americanization. What do the Scots call the people south of the border, anyway? (I mean what you can print, of course!)
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snow problum mate.
dem tests ta worssstee fings.
no goood.
Just kkep crankers at it while the ire suffer.
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#46: Americans do drink to excess on certain ritual occassions, but it's been my experience that Brits are more likely to regularly drink with the express purpose of getting drunk. Factor in the reality that many more Brits than Americans live within walking distance of a bar or pub, too.
Re: Mardi Gras -- At the conclusion of the day at one Mardi Gras, i.e., at midnight just before Lent began (you do know Mardi Gras is a religious celebration, eh?) a phalanx of mounted police formed up on a corner just off Bourbon Street. At the stroke of midnight, the two lead officers -- a man and a woman -- brought their horses together, leaned toward each other, embraced, and kissed. After the kiss, they led the phalanx, in a wedge formation, down Bourbon Street, clearing away the human rabble. Anyone who couldn't get out of the way was hauled off to jail.
New Orleans is a great town.
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Drinking is not allowed on company time, so at our recent golf outing for which we had to take half a day's holiday, the beer flowed freely and cigars appeared (rumour was they were Cuban). We all got to know each other better and no one took anyone seriously, especially in light of some God awful shots.
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"The Scotch Irish were the activists behind the American Revolution."
That's news to me. Namely, who?
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Gary,
"Sassenachs" is the general term, but English (said with a curled lip) is also heard, and also "Southerners". For those who've come to live in Scotland, but mostly keep to their own company, the term "White Settler" is used, and it took me quite a while to get the full meaning - we've been here almost 40 years (my wife's Welsh, but (posh) English educated) and, to this day, there are still usually fewer local native Scots around our dinner table than fellow white settlers.
Truth be told, this isn't unusual anywhere, as most of us tend to associate with folk with whom we have more in common. It would also be possible to say that our dinner guests tend to be similarly educated, travelled, and of similar age and economic status... I ran the local village youth club for seven years when we first arrived, so I also have loads of friends (now in their 40s) who I see if I go down to the pub, and I'm on excellent terms with them, but damn few of them have ever been to dinner here...
Still, I reckon we're pretty integrated into the locality. I said once in the pub I was still an incomer, and the response was, "Aye, Ed, you'll die that, but you're a local!"
"White Settler" actually says it rather well, and I don't mind it too much - the real resentment is reserved for incomers who act superior, and who have 'second homes', kept empty most of the year, and this is both naturaL and proper, in my view.
A couple of years ago, the pub was bought by a gay couple, and you'd have thought they were "pretty brave" to take on the pub in a wee, inbred Scottish village, but no, they embraced the vilage, and the village returned in kind. When they moved on, there were full-grown heterosexual men weeping real tears.
You get what you give.
Slainte
ed
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#30 - Xie_Ming
In my experience, people the world over are much the same. If you treat them with respect, they will reciprocate.
If, on the other hand, you start talking about piracy, commonness and arrogance there is an outside chance they will not take to you and react accordingly.
If this basic fact of life has eluded you, you should consider getting out more.
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I think you can see a lot of the beginnings of the US spirit in the Declaration of Independence. There's a certain evangalizing mission in the document, and I think that mission of spreading democracy and individualism (or our version of it) at home and abroad has become a part of the American character. I think that Americans feel a certain confidence in ourselves and our "mission." And that confidence makes Americans abroad very interesting.
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As always, stereotypes have exceptions, but are based on some core of reality.
My son reckons that his drinking has reduced significantly since he moved from Scotland to the US (North Carolina and Baltimore).
He tells me that this is because drink is less a core part of the culture he has moved to, the beer is less strong, and spirits are definitely not as commonly used as in Scotland.
Of course, who ever tells the truth to their Dad?
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I'm British-born and have lived in the USA for 4 years, in a small to medium-sized town on the edge of the south-west, some call it the buckle of the Bible-belt.
It'd be very unusual to find anyone drunk in public here, bars are almost non-existent, apart from a couple of tiny places where it's said the wilder youngsters go of an evening when they want to find a fight.
You have to drive absolutely everywhere - no public transport and no sidewalks - so in a way it's a blessing that we don't have pubs in the way that a town of this size in England would - the population would decimate in months, and the cemetary be filled to overflowing!
People must surely drink here though - but at home. Large liquor stores in nearby towns are filled to the roof with the stuff - they must sell it or they'd go out of business.
Drugs and secret meths labs are the bugbear in these parts, rather than drunken louts on the streets.
As for Americans being more serious than Brits - yes I agree. I've found there is this subtle difference. They do have to work much longer hours and with less vacation time here. Health care costs are horrendous, as is now well-known, this alone probably lies heavy on the minds of family men and women. The NHS allows more happy-go-lucky approach with little fear of what could happen should health fail. TV commercials here tend to harp on health matters and pharmaceuticals too - so thoughts of ill-health are never far away.
All of that sounds as though the USA is a dour and worrying place to be - it isn't, it's really just a matter of swapping one set of problems for another. The UK has its share - just different ones.
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Justin
I hail form the IoW and i know those drinking problems well. The IoW is a sleepy, nothing-ever-happens-here place for some 9months of the year. Save for the odd event such as Cowes Week and The Rock Festival and The Garlic Festival.
When summer comes it is flooded with tourists, many on long weekend trips...the IoW has a very large youth population who have "nothing to do".
The two become an ideal recipe for going out and drinking lots....the IoW is not large either nor are the towns. So, you notice it a lot.
I have seen just as many drunk/yobs in other places the world over.
However, there is certainly a greater tendency for the Brits to over indulge than many other nations. A good read on this subject is Jeremy Paxman's book, what it is to be English- i think its called (can't find my copy).
He quoted many excerpts from newspaper articles and visiting "dignitaries" to England. Yet almost all the quotes are from the 12~15th Century...yet they could have been written today!
I think if you spread out the UK population to an equivalent land mass size of the US....I'm sure you'll find it would be no different, the two would appear the same relative drunkenness, just that the Brits would be a bit louder!!
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However, forgot to add that America is also a country of extremes, and extreme solutions to perceived problems such as making the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol illegal for 14 years from 1920. How many other countries have done that??...how many would tolerate this too??
This would have broken any cycle/culture of drinking
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As a light-hearted look at Brits' behaviour on the Continent I recommend those who have not seen it to watch the classic film "Shirley Valentine".
The sight of a woman holidaymaker sliding under the dinner table on being told by Shirley that calamari is actually squid is something to behold.
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#56AnnaL
You make some very interesting observations. One i would also add is that it is illegal, as far as I am aware, to walk around the streets with a can of beer in your hand, drinking.
Whereas in the UK, it is not illegal to drink in the streets - although some pilot schemes have been tried.
Drinking on the street in the UK occurs daily owing to this "freedom"!
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I'm wondering if in Britain or any European country an "open-container" law would be tolerated. In Florida you can be charged with drunk driving if you have an open container that once had or still has an alcoholic beverage in it. It could be an old empty beer bottle from weeks ago.
I know that British television shows bear the same connection to reality as American ones do, but I've always noticed that in British shows alcohol plays a role in so many contexts in which it would never appear in the U.S.
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I can certainly see problems in the way that we drink in the UK - in some city centres at least. On the other hand I wouldn't want to loose the social aspect of the local pub (it's something I really miss living in Australia!).
Got to take issue with the "lack of inner strength" though! Surely, if anything, it's the other way round? We shouldn't confuse not forcing your views on others (and I'm NOT saying that is what all Americans do) with being less independent...
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#60 kecsmar
In the USA, such laws are up to the States. In the UK, such laws also belong to the different legal jurisdictions. In most parts (possibly all) of Scotland, drinking in non-licensed public places is illegal (doesn't stop it of course!).
There is no UK law on such issues.
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Widespread alcoholism in Britain is not a valid excues for its failures. Until relatively recently, perhaps in the last couple of decades, many Americans were heavy drinkers. It goes back to revolutionary times and before. When I was much younger, I heard someone report that 40 million American adults had an alcohol problem. I don't think there is a family in America that has not at one time or another suffered with someone close who was an alcoholic. The country prospered and advanced anyway.
Perhaps alcoholism in Britain is an escape from frustrations in life that have no other escape. In the US, alcoholism is regarded as a mental illness. I recall reading that in Britain it is regarded as a lifestyle choice. Perhaps if it were taken more seriously there, some of it victims would be treated and their illness brought under control. As far as we know, it cannot be cured.
kecsmar #58
As usual you are dead wrong in your conclusions, your facts being utterly incomplete and out of context. The prohibiton of the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages in the United States by a Constitutional amendment after WWI was a terrible mistake. It only pushed the problem underground and set the stage for the Sicillian Mafia to get a foothold in the United States. It was the beginning of organized crime in America. When Franklin Roosevelt was elected, it was repealed by another amendment almost immediately.
The penalties for driving legally drunk, a blood alcohol level of 0.8% or greater are severe in the US. You WILL go to jail. You will pay a heavy find. Your license to drive may be suspended for up to six months. And for repeat offenders your right to drive will be revoked. If you are in an accident while driving drunk, you are not covered by insurance and are entirely liable. Perhaps reduction in alcoholism and public drunkenness is in part due to a cultural change as the result of these severe laws.
If Europe were serious about its alcohol problem, it would impose heavy penalties for the chaos that for example, British soccer hooligans commit. How about six months in jail, heavy fines, and paying for any damage caused for a first offense, more severe penalties for subsequent offenses. Since the problem is not taken seriously in Europe, it will not be solved.
BTW, nobody takes Britain less seriously than I do. That goes double for BBC.
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MAII, why read this website given the level of seriousness you regard it with? Is it for amusement (the same reason i now read most of your posts)?
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#65
The world has its version of history as noted by endless books and other well sources materials. None of which supports MAII version.
Just shows that America is very tolerant of paranoid delusionals. Not even worth humouring; it is lost in "translation" in the deluded world...
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paulcrossley, yes I do it for amusement. For example, kescmar's view of the world and of history is quite entertaining fiction. It's like learning about how the characters on the other side of the looking glass see things. They seem as strange to me as I must seem to you. Now wouldn't the world including this blog site be a boring place if everyone agreed on everything? I hope you find me as entertaining as I find you Brits. Your versions of things makes for a view from a parallel universe.
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As it happens I was just discussing British dunkenness with my son-in-law who lives in Wales with my daughter and their family (he is Irish).
Americans do not have a pub mentality which might account for our having fewer drunks, and less toleration for them. Even though we have our share of bottle-lovers, we place them in much the same category as drug users.
Young Americans tend to overdo the drinking in college, and then put it aside as they acquire responsibilities.
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55, oldnat and futher to 68, above.
I have the same experience with one of sons-in-law that you have had with your son. My daughter's husband is Hungarian and he tends, like most Hungarians, to drink heavily at parties. But now his parties are only half-Hungarian.
As time goes by he drinks less and less and, interestingly enough, he doesn't seem to miss it. Maybe his party drinking is like the English pub, part of the culture. Change the culture and....
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Well drinking starts later here in the US. I'm a Brit and grew up in suburban London, where it's legal to drink at at 18, so we all started at about 16 (no IDs back then, you just had to look old enough.) Whereas here in the US it's generally not legal until 21 so no one really gets started until about 19. I think it makes a difference. Or am I being naive? Alcohol is banned on the beaches where I live on the West Coast, but people do disguise it it soda bottles. And of course we have to drive everywhere, as others have pointed out. If you're commuting by train you can have a drink when you leave the office. But not if you have a 50 mile drive ahead of you.
Personally I think I drink more since I moved to the US than I did back in the UK but it's probably has more to do with my stage of life than anything else (kids grown up, earning my own money again, plus decent wine is relatively cheap.) But I agree drunkeness in public is rare. It's considered pretty skanky. In the Uk it's more allowed.
I'm bemused by the comments about Americans working harder and Europeans taking long vacations, having seen life on both sides of the Atlantic. In my experience Americans make up for short official vacations by going sick a lot. Planned vacations are much easier to deal with than disruptive random 'sick' days, so I'm not sure that short vacation allowances lead to any appreciable differences in efficiency, and per capita output if probably much the same.
And reliability? I'd never heard the term "flakey" applied to people before I moved here!! I think people just tend to be people and it's rather dangerous to make such wild generalizations. There are some skanky drunken flakes here and some good upright citizens in the UK. And the reverse.
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Funny but I have a Spanish friend who says they drink just as much in Spain but no one ever seems to get drunk. Perhaps they are immune to it? I recall once being in Spain and a Spaniard observing that whereas the Brits get aggressive and fight when drunk, (eg football hooligans) Spaniards just smile and fall asleep.
It's not perhaps the getting drunk that offends so much as the resultant objectionable behaviour?
Another (British) friend observed to me recently that whereas our generation (boomers) got drunk occasionally at college, kids now seem to do it almost every night. I have no idea how they can afford it, apart from anyting else? I had to save up for a pint of cider on a Friday night when I was a student. Where do these kids get their money?
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@ #60 Drinking laws are different from state to state but in my state which is New York your allowed to walk around with a open container of alcohol as long as it isn't liquor. I can walk down street drinking a can of beer if I wanted to. To the guy who said most Americans don't start drinking till they are 19 that's not true. Most Americans start drinking around 17 I know most of my friends did and people I know.
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Perhaps someone else brought this up -- don't have time to scroll through all the 70-odd comments -- but what is up with English soccer fans? I mean, come on guys, get a life! It's a game where you kick a ball around.
Also -- and this ties in with earlier discussions about transportation -- there has been a vastly increased awareness of drunk driving in America. As a result, while people do get drunk, they typically find or prearrange some way of getting home quickly and quietly, if they aren't home already.
Re seriousness and uptightness: We have indeed lost our sense of humor. Satire and parody are gone. Our TV is filled with mindless reality shows where the humor is self-inflicted and therefore no one can get offended. The British have far better comedy shows (from Monty Python to Fawlty Towers to Yes Minister) precisely because they don't take themsleves so seriously. Justin, you are right about that in general, but I'd say you have to score one fir the British on that. What's the point of life if you go cradle to grave without enjoying yourself, as so many stressed-out, obsessive, cranky Americans do?
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"kecsmar #58
As usual you are dead wrong in your conclusions, your facts being utterly incomplete and out of context. The prohibiton of the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages in the United States by a Constitutional amendment after WWI was a terrible mistake. It only pushed the problem underground and set the stage for the Sicillian Mafia to get a foothold in the United States. "
If you are going to quote history it would be well to know something about it.
The Volstead Act did not prescribe the"making" of alcohol at all. That was one of the factors that undercut the whole prohibition system.
"If Europe were serious about its alcohol problem, it would impose heavy penalties for the chaos that for example, British soccer hooligans commit. How about six months in jail, heavy fines, and paying for any damage caused for a first offense, more severe penalties for subsequent offenses. Since the problem is not taken seriously in Europe, it will not be solved."
You are suggesting that Sweden, Denmark etc do not have severe anti-alcohol laws?
"BTW, nobody takes Britain less seriously than I do. That goes double for BBC. "
And is that the reason you do not care to learn about the country?
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I'm not really a fan of generalisations. I hardly drink, even though I'm Scottish and that's certainly one of our national stereotypes. I won't deny we have a problem with alcohol here, though. I've noticed in recent years an air of menace around my city at certain times of the day/night, and it's made going out a less pleasant experience. It's better now I have a car, but when I used to wait for a bus home after 11, it wasn't nice to be the only person (and I'm a petite woman) at the bus stop when all around me were drunken, shouting teenagers. Rightly or wrongly, that scared me, and I wish there was a way of dealing with this.
When I was in America I decided that the 21 year age limit for buying alcohol was a much better idea. I was 22 then, anyway, so I could get it if I wanted, but the other Brits with me on the work exchange programme (and they were all English, incidentally) kept trying to get around the law. Once the boys were drinking in their house (owned by the park we worked at) and the police turned up - apparently it was a tip-off, and they were lucky not to be in trouble. And when I ordered the single drink of my trip, I was asked for ID, something that never happens here even though I look young for my age. I didn't mind being asked - I wish it happened here more often. Or at least that there was another way to stop people who drink causing trouble. I'm all for people being able to drink if they want, but those of us who don't want to suffer the repercussions should also be taken into account.
So I don't really know how to take this generalisation. I suppose maybe you're right in that respect. And I like how Americans still seem to believe in dating. It might mean they take themselves more seriously, I don't know, but there's respect there. I was treated so nicely while I was there. People included me in things. And Americans do produce brilliant comedy themselves, although the UK has more that its fair share if you look at the past - for current comedy though, the US seems to do well. I don't know what my point is!
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I don't know what these other people are talking about but Britain definitely does not mind public drunkenness. As an American who has been living in London for six months many a Saturday have I been waiting at Clapham Junction and watching all the drunks, especially women, struggling to make it up the stairs to the platform.
Arguably in places you can see this in the US. At university every Saturday night I watched students fall about is pitiful attempts to get back to their dorms. But overall the United States does not accept public misbehavior of this sort. Maybe it's the watered down beer and lack of good cider, probably its the open container laws. It truly depends on where you are. Sure everyone can point to spring break, but spring break is like college it is isolated, in England is seems far more widespread than that and its cultural. After six months I find myself sipping a cider wondering how it fell into my hands.
Do Americans or Brits take themselves more seriously? That too is hard to quantify but any self respecting person, Brit, American or otherwise would be more apt to keep the drunkenness private versus walking about trying to catch a train. It is really quite dangerous and in London and places like Chicago drunkenness and public transport on occasion leads to unnecessary deaths.
It's hard to place people in a category but I'd still say there is far less a widespread drinking culture among all classes of people, not just college students, in the United States whereas in the UK if you've been out in the City on a Friday night you can see the pubs spilling over with alcohol and patrons. If you haven't lived in both places you just really can't argue, that's the truth.
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Richard Berry (#14) - I completely agree.
Justin, I know that the media frenzy has slowed somewhat since the rollercoaster of the primaries, but if you position yourself as a Brit living in the US, why do you spend so much time talking about Britain? I'm most interested in your perspectives on American culture, not so much about your deconstructing and/or criticizing aspects of the UK's culture.
That said, you do raise an interesting question - why are British people preoccupied with the pub (and consequently, with alcohol)? Dating back to time immemorial, most towns and villages had inns, taverns and hostelries, to offer accommodation and sustenance to travellers passing through. Therefore, urban areas developed with alcohol-serving premises at both their geographical and philosophical heart. Nowadays, whilst most pubs don't offer accommodation, their location and position in the community is still just as central. People use the pub as a meeting-place, a focal point, and a common ground; probably one of the last bastions of the community spirit that is being exstinguished throughout the UK. The US, being considerably younger, has no such heritage, and indeed, many of its towns and cities (outside of the North East) are designed and structured for car users, not pedestrians. Consequently, bars and 'watering holes' are often only accessible by car, as many US towns have very little if any meaningful public transport, or footpaths for that matter. Because of this, the US's alcohol-related curse wasn't anti-social behaviour or closing-time violence, but drink-driving and associated issues. Thanks largely to much more stringent enforcement and punishment of such offences, this is becoming a little less pervasive. However, attitudes still persist on both sides of the Atlantic, and whilst the UK still has the vomit, fighting and screaming women come 11:30 at night, the US still has drive-through off-licences...
Justin, it would be great that as a limey in Yanksville, you could at least try to be slightly more fair and even-handed in your criticism!
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#69 - allmymarbles
I live in Hungary and certainly, if there is alcohol around, you will find no shortage of volunteers to use it. That is not very different from the UK. What is different is the culture. Put very simply, continentals who drink excessively tend to see how long they can stay sober. Young Brits tend to see how quickly they can get drunk.
I cannot explain this phenomenon.
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#57 - kecsmar
So I imagine you will have seen from the County Press the magistrates slapping the wrists of hooray henries in Cowes week for their youthful high spirits and slapping long community service orders on the local lads for doing nothing worse. Of course the henries are oveners so they will be gone before they cause any more bovver. The caulkheads as usual carry the can. As I say, it's cultural.
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#79
My parents are Hungarian. The culture they grew up with, on their farms, was a shot of Palinka at 6am to start the day..and it just went on from there..as you say, seeing how long they can stay sober!!
Yes the Henries do get off lightly, however, if one compares the "track record" of "high spirits" of a Henry against an average caulkhead, I'm sure that is where the two differ...and are judged accordingly.
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When I was younger I was drunk more often and some weekends I stayed drunk.
That kind of behavior was the norm and would not be tolerated as much now as it was then.
Although, that happens less often for me, now that I have responsibilities.
I've met brits in bars and pubs around the world and they were the loudest most obnoxious drunks I've ever met
We Americans do hide it our drunkeness better, and it's not the alcohol that makes one rude (that's all you), I'm a happy drunk.
There was this one time in Hong Kong that me and my buddy CJ gave you brits some competition in that regard, we had some spirited (hic!) debate with some brits there (over G-d knows what, does it matter now any way?) and singing: "Knocking on heaven's door" on the boat home, while CJ sat and brooded.
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#80 - kecsmar
I am probably doing the bench an injustice. The Henries are part of a lucrative industry which keeps the sailing towns afloat. The 'lads' on the other hand are likely unemployed so community service is really the only option. Still it does seem a bit unbalanced.
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#74 Simon21
"...The Volstead Act did not prescribe the"making" of alcohol at all. That was one of the factors that undercut the whole prohibition system..."
I assume you mean 'proscribe'. Yes it did. It said '...no person shall manufacture, sell, barter, transport, import, export, deliver, furnish or possess any intoxicating liquor except as authorized by this act...'.
The 18th Amendment says '...the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited...'
Unless you think alcohol cannot be legally defined as an 'intoxicating liquor' ?
It interests me that a nation which takes so much pride in personal freedom went in for such massive social engineering, especially for partly moral purposes. I believe economics was the prime mover but even so...
The same social engineering continues with the 'War on Drugs'. Why should people not take drugs ?
I don't take drugs other than caffeine in tea (as far as I know, given the arcane world of food additives). I am also completely teetotal and have been for 32 years. I just wonder why anyone would stop anyone else taking their drug of choice.
The UK has a much better excuse because of the burden on the NHS but that's all heavily socialised, something I would think most Americans would abhor.
As to the more general topic, the other posters have, I think, argued it to a standstill.
Maybe Americans drink less in public because of transport, etc. difficulties.
The thing about that in the UK is perhaps the loss of 'social pride'. I suppose that goes with the loss of 'nationalism'.
English nationalism, in particular, is a strange beast. I have no particular subscription to it except as an observer.
The mere mention of English nationalism creates an image of right wing fruitcakes. Perhaps of Oswald Mosley and the blackshirts. It also invites Victorian images of the Raj, etc.
Maybe as a nation you can only be nationalistic once, that's all that's allowed. After that it's passe, harking back to long gone glories. It seems it cannot be updated.
That being so, USA beware. The Vietnam and Iraq Wars are causing internal criticisms which are the antithesis of nationalistic. In the case of the Iraq War at least - which I support strongly and always have - these voices are vituperative and corrosive.
I wish the USA well, it is a force for good. There are problems - I believe American soldiers need to be defined differently to work in asymmetric conflicts around the World and they will be much more *politically* successful if they are.
As it is, they are Roman legionaries, protected by citizenship in an increasingly egalitarian World.
But that's another topic.
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I think there are 2 historical experiences that us British have had that have made our current character. The first is the industrial revolution which is responsible for our alcoholism and our loutishness.
The second is the Empire and more importantly the loss of it. This had rendered taking yourself seriously (as a nation) almost impossible.
I believe puritanism is a very immature philosophy and generally people (or nations) who take themselves too seriously are generally extremely insecure.
As regards the lack of "get-u-and-go" spirit in Britain I think the facts tell a different story. We are the 4th or 5th largest economy is the world. We are world leaders in so many sectors - arts/ invention/ science/ sport (well maybe not sport:).
We just do not constantly pat ourselves on the back, we actually do the opposite (put ourselves down).
True puritanism is socratic and never has anyone in history taken themselves less serious.
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Reuben34g #81
You are correct. Alcohol does not make one a rude lout. Alcohol releases social inhibitions from one part of the brain allowing an individual's true character to emerge. It takes us off our guard. Brits are louts when they are drunk because that is their basic nature which is a consequence of the culture they were brought up in. It allows the true man or woman to emerge for all of us to see. BTW, social events related to employment where alcohol is served, especially away from the office such as the annual Christmas party are especially dangerous. Many careers have been ruined at them. Sexual inhibitions are released often resulting in unwanted pregnancies. And crimes of violence are committed.
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73. RalphMa: 'Perhaps someone else brought this up -- don't have time to scroll through all the 70-odd comments -- but what is up with English soccer fans? I mean, come on guys, get a life! It's a game where you kick a ball around.'
Ah, that's an old one now, Ralph! There is significantly less football hooliganism in England now - even when fans travel abroad there are fewer arrests and incidents compared to the bad old days of the '70s and '80s. There are more kids and families going to the football now than there used to be (and there would be more if it wasn't so extortionate!).
However, I concur with your choice of comedies! Plus, I would say that there have been some excellent comedy shows from the US (Cheers [set in a bar!]), Frasier, Curb Your Enthusiasm...
There are some of us that get a bit leery at time in the UK when 'leathered'. Yet I would say the vast majority of people out for a drink are not trouble-causers. As someone has already observed from their own experience, the people I have sadly encountered who behave reprehensibly when drunk have turned out to be equally unpleasant when sober.
As for Americans taking themselves too seriously - well, it probably is a generalisation. I've met some self-effacing Americans and some equally stuffy ad strident ones, but the same experience goes for Germans, French, Poles, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Danes, Swedes, Chinese and my fellow English. I'm of the mindset that if you are friendly with me, I'll be friendly back to you. If you're not, I'll stay out of your way. But if you change your mind and want to have a chat, I'll be over the road - in the pub.
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#85 - MarcusAureliusII
Perhaps we should derive some comfort from the fact that, while our political power has waned, our genetic legacy marches on remorselessly. Rude louts? So that's where you got it from.
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Is the view good up there, MarcusAureliusII?
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#86 G
"...I'm of the mindset that if you are friendly with me, I'll be friendly back to you. If you're not, I'll stay out of your way. But if you change your mind and want to have a chat, I'll be over the road - in the pub...."
Can't agrue with that....well said.
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85 MarcusAureliusII
"BTW, social events related to employment where alcohol is served, especially away from the office such as the annual Christmas party are especially dangerous. Many careers have been ruined at them."
Ah, so that is why you moved back to the US, the truth really can set you free.
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I think maybe a lot of our American contributors live in the suburbs and only visit the downtown parts of big cities. Try Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, Hoboken or the Bronx on a Saturday night. Or some of the Hudson valley towns. They have lots of bars in close proximity so you get the same effect. The difference I noticed was that the drunks in the USA tended to be older. Did see vomting, fighting and urinating in public on a regular basis. Just not in the all white burbs where the tendancy is to drink at home as you have to drive everywhere.
I'm not sure Americans work harder either, longer hours yes, but harder?
The idea that Americans are more serious is a sweeping generalization too, maybe true in the midwest but I found that Chicagoans and New Yorkers were humorous and friendly.
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Drugs seem to be a much greater problem in America - affecting all areas of society. Casual drinks/drug related crime amongst upper/middle class is also on the up.
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I came back from spending two weeks in America, off the beaten tourist track. I did find that people over there were very much more civilised then the streets of the UK at the moment and I commented on it at the time. People over there didn't go out to get "wasted". There was no-body staggering about or wanting to punch anyone that walked by. I was there for the 4th July celebrations and no-one was out of order. I think to stamp out the uncivilised behaviour, then the police should pick up everyone and take them too the station. When they only take a couple of people the effect isn't as strong.
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"Has Alchohol Sapped The British Spirit?"
Ah, now it's clear. The blog is merely a front for Justin's MarcusAureliusll Spoof. Very clever. ;-)
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Do you really think Gordon Browns 'seriousness' gives him inner strength?
The way that man flip-flops on issues I wouldn't be surprised if his back-bone was made of jelly.
And surely a greater sense of humour over too much seriousness allows people to ignore ill-informed, generalised comments about entire nations, rather than worrying that someone thinks we're an island of drunks. :)
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Mathsmystic wrote:
Drugs seem to be a much greater problem in America - affecting all areas of society. Casual drinks/drug related crime amongst upper/middle class is also on the up.
The drugs bit is true, and was so 20 years ago as well. Comiing from the punk generation I had dabbled a bit in my youth but I was shocked at how widespread coke use was amongst middle class Americans who were otherwise straightlaced. It seemed to be a case of Guns, God, Guts, Charlie and Jack.
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Just remembering New York on St Patrick's Day as well. Mass drunkeness and a mini-riot on 42nd street.
Maybe americans DRINK more seriously than Brits. I remember hanging out with some colleagues in Chicago who claimed that drinking beer was not "real drinking" For real drinking apparently it needed to be spirits. Those guys put away way more units than any of my British chums.
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As for public drunkenness and the always touchy subject of US-UK relations, I offer the following, rather sad story. Recently, an American lady of my acquaintance sent her son off for a gap year to be spent in the British Isles and France. Shortly after arriving in the UK, he made his way to Edinburgh because he had heard it described as a charming and cosmopolitan town and because he has a great admiration for David Hume and wanted to visit his monument in the Old Calton Burial Ground. He thought he might spend his first evening in Edinburgh in a pub or two. As he was leaving the second of the two, he was set upon by a band of hooligans who had heard his obviously American accent in the pub. They were abusive in the extreme and, when he tried to shake loose and run away, chased him down the street, caught him again, and gave him a good thrashing, "for being an American."
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"You are correct. Alcohol does not make one a rude lout. Alcohol releases social inhibitions from one part of the brain allowing an individual's true character to emerge. It takes us off our guard. Brits are louts when they are drunk because that is their basic nature which is a consequence of the culture they were brought up in. It allows the true man or woman to emerge for all of us to see. BTW, social events related to employment where alcohol is served, especially away from the office such as the annual Christmas party are especially dangerous. Many careers have been ruined at them. Sexual inhibitions are released often resulting in unwanted pregnancies. And crimes of violence are committed. "
This sounds like a personal confession rather then a commentary on the issue Alcohol does not release a person's "true nature" To assume, for example, a drunken woman is in fact "truly" promiscuos and is showing her "real personality" will, quite correctly, land you in jail in most countries
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At 11:06am on 01 Aug 2008, chill0 wrote:
#74 Simon21
"...The Volstead Act did not prescribe the"making" of alcohol at all. That was one of the factors that undercut the whole prohibition system..."
I assume you mean 'proscribe'. Yes it did. It said '...no person shall manufacture, sell, barter, transport, import, export, deliver, furnish or possess any intoxicating liquor except as authorized by this act...'.
The 18th Amendment says '...the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited...'
Unless you think alcohol cannot be legally defined as an 'intoxicating liquor' ?
However the ammendent was interpreted as allowing various exceptions in the production of alcohol in the home. Commercial manufacture was completely proscribed, but domestic was not and provided an essential loop hole
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Ref #98
The story you described so eloquently should give us pause when we see or read about minorities being abused in our country for no other reason than not meeting the Norman Rockwell image of America that so many like to preserve.
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"As for public drunkenness and the always touchy subject of US-UK relations, I offer the following, rather sad story. Recently, an American lady of my acquaintance sent her son off for a gap year to be spent in the British Isles and France. Shortly after arriving in the UK, he made his way to Edinburgh because he had heard it described as a charming and cosmopolitan town and because he has a great admiration for David Hume and wanted to visit his monument in the Old Calton Burial Ground. He thought he might spend his first evening in Edinburgh in a pub or two. As he was leaving the second of the two, he was set upon by a band of hooligans who had heard his obviously American accent in the pub. They were abusive in the extreme and, when he tried to shake loose and run away, chased him down the street, caught him again, and gave him a good thrashing, "for being an American.""
changeofstate:
Yes, I could add my own anecdotes from coleagues.
The hatred in Britain towards Americans has indeed reached very serious levels, and drinking obviousy makes it much worse.
Justin Webb tends to dimiss any comments like these with amusement, as a case of Americans being "too serious". But it's a serious situation.
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"Justin, you are right about that in general, but I'd say you have to score one fir the British on that. What's the point of life if you go cradle to grave without enjoying yourself, as so many stressed-out, obsessive, cranky Americans do?"
Ralphma:
I cannot agree with these generaizations. Do the people of Britain really seem to you to be a fun-loving, happ-go-lucky bunch? That is not my experience. As for the remarks about Americans - it seems you have had a limited experience.
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Looks like i'll need to get totally drunk off my face tonight in order to forget the absolutely brainless comments made by Marcus AureliusII...
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Okay Justin, Time to redirect. We have a new concern in American Politics, its called the;
"Dead Presidents on Dollar Bills".
Will the 'white supremist' affliction cause disparity in the election process? White Americans are told they are racist-bigots and homo-phobics from birth! We struggle with the quilt that keeps us awake at night.
And reperations aren't a cure!!!
Will we vote for the 'black' guy just to ease our souls? How about the fear, you know, of the unknown 'Muslim' as BHO is portrayed by the swift boat crowd.
"Let your heart not be troubled." is Sean Hannities answer to BHO and his "Stop the Obama Express". Questions, Questions , Questions. Let your brain trust enlighten!!
love, if a place, peace, if a dance
namaste()
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"him down the street, caught him again, and gave him a good thrashing, "for being an American.""
changeofstate:
Yes, I could add my own anecdotes from coleagues.
The hatred in Britain towards Americans has indeed reached very serious levels, and drinking obviousy makes it much worse.
Justin Webb tends to dimiss any comments like these with amusement, as a case of Americans being "too serious". But it's a serious situation. "
Really. We could all tell anecdotes can't we. One of my friends found himself frequently taken aback by the rudeness he encountered in the US, culminating in being mugged in Chicago (where the police to, say the least, were unsympathetic to the extent of being frightening).
And some of the remarks made by US officials and those in the media about "Europe" and other parts of world are little less than disgusting. What did Secretary Rumsfeld say again? And how often has France' s collapse in WWII been thrown in the face of French people? And didn't some US media figure call for the assassination of the Venezualan president (though for some very curious reason this was free speech, not a call for terrorism).
The US gives as good as it gets and should stope the puerile whining
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What's the point of life if you go cradle to grave without enjoying yourself, as so many stressed-out, obsessive, cranky Americans do?"
I am not sure I would describe the "cradle to grave" benefits offered in socialist countries as a panacea conducive to happiness. Believe it or not, most Americans are happy, enjoy working, and love their families. The concerns expressed in blogs like this reflect our dissatisfaction with some government policies, but do not mean we are unhappy or apt to change our way of life or our values.
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#100 Simon21
"....However the ammendent was interpreted as allowing various exceptions in the production of alcohol in the home. Commercial manufacture was completely proscribed, but domestic was not and provided an essential loop hole.."
There were over 30,000 speakeasies in New York and more than 10,000 in Chicago. I think that's what killed off Prohibition - along with its sheer political unpopularity.
I still maintain that Prohibition continues in the form of the ban on various drugs. How is it that that is tolerated in the 'free' society of the USA ?
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Sort of reminds me of the old joke...
Q: "Why did God invent Whiskey?"
A: "To keep the Irish from ruling the world."
I used the word Irish because my family name is (although ethnically I am Irish, French, Alsacian, Bavarian, Italian, Hungarian, African and American Indian Shawnee -- like a lot of Americans: a total mutt), so hopefully will not be accused of being "unPC"
I would dsagree with the expat blogger and you though. It is not so much seriousness as it is adherance to concepts like honor and duty. American Character -- honor, duty, etc. is not a "Puritan Legacy". Rather these were attributes that were necessay on the frontier and were also adopted as survival mechanisms by immigrants in the 20 th Century. WIthout conducting yourself in an honorable manner and respecting the duty you have to your family and community -- how will your children ever do better than you have done?
That friends is what America is truly all about -- working so that your chiden have a better life than you. Try to find such sentiment in the UK or elsewhere in Europe....Good Luck with that....but go to the US and one finds this is what motivates most Americans. As Americans we live and work for our children more than for ourselves.
To that end, it is not necessary for Americans themselves to feel threatened -- but merely that the future propserity of their own children might be threatened, that will incite Americans to action.
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If how seriously a nations people takes themselves is an indication of it's propensity for growth, I am baffled as to how Australia has survived as long as it has!
[Yes, I'm Australian].
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Forgive a drunken spirit-sapped Brit for asking, but why has the John Edwards (D) scandal been ignored by the BBC when it was only too happy to run the far less convincing allegations about John McCain (R)?
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"Why has the John Edwards (D) scandal been ignored by the BBC when it was only too happy to run the far less convincing allegations about John McCain (R)? "
Because the McCain story that the NY Times published was met with resounding disapproval by Americans. Also, Edwards' wife is in a battle for her life. Scandal is the last thing she needs. Decency ruled the day this time.
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Why is the BBC ignoring the Edwards affair, but ran big on the garbage about McCain's 'alleged' affair which was based on nothing?
As usual the BBC suck up the elfties in the world.
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78, threnodio.
Very observant. I hadn't thought about it that way before Also Hungarian drunks are much less likely than Brits to get out of hand.
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"That friends is what America is truly all about -- working so that your children have a better life than you. Try to find such sentiment in the UK or elsewhere in Europe....Good Luck with that....but go to the US and one finds this is what motivates most Americans. As Americans we live and work for our children more than for ourselves."
We need some background music for this! Would someone please hum the Battle Hymn of the Republic? Or maybe America the Beautiful?
What a bunch of pablum! Yes, I want my kids to be happy and taking care of them takes a good part of my paycheck, but I'm certainly not living my life for them. And having lived in France, I can tell you for sure that they want the same thing for their kids. I, like a lot of my friends, and working for the weekend as much as anything else.
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When you say a person takes himself too seriously are you really saying anything more than that you don't agree with his priorities? And how surprising is it that different peoples would have different priorities?
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Would the BBC have ignored similar allegations of sleaze against a former Republican presidential candidate who has serious ambitions for a senior post in a future administration and whose wife has cancer? Hell would freeze over first.
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MikeIL,
This is also the main characteristic shared by the ethnic groups who can be found disproportionately occupying the upper reaches of almost every field of human endeavour - Jews, Scots, certain Asians, and others. It's called "family values", and stresses education, denial of immediate gratification, thrift, square dealing, and, of course, nepotism.We "moderns tend to turn our noses up at such things, disparaging such things as "clannish".
Salaam, Shalom
ed
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#118
Is a universal genetic truth. Anti-nepotism is an artificial ideology.
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The reason their are no drunks on the streets of my town in Texas, is that all the drunks are in their cars driving home. Straight out of a club and into their cars!What's better, a few brawls and puking on the streets or killing someone whilst drunk driving?
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I am a Brit who came to the States for college when I was 18 and had already been drinking for a few years. In the UK, we certainly start drinking earlier and drink more than here in the USA. Alcohol is most readily available to young people in the UK than it is here, and the culture of young people in the UK promotes underage drinking. However, here in the USA, illegal substances such as ecstasy, heroin, crystal meth and coke are much easier to obtain than they are in the UK, and are much more widely used. So which would you rather see, a country that consumes too much alcohol and has a few drunkards walking around on Saturday nights, or a country ravaged by addiction to substances that kill people much more quickly than alcohol ever could?
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#113 gordonsglovepuppet
"As usual the BBC suck up the elfties in the world"
So that's where my licence fee goes! I'm paying a tax to the elves!
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There are some wild generalizations going on here. Pretty meaningless really.
Lots of Americans have a very unrealisted and dated view of England (and they do tend to think that the UK is England) and to think we are very polite, well mannered and inhibited people who all live in country cottages with Beatrix Potter gardens. Others think we are all Arthur Daley with a raucous cockney accent. Many Americans are astonished when they hear a black person with a British accent (especially a posh accent.)
On the other hand there is a tendency among Brits to view all Americans as fat, loud, geographically challeneged and right wing and of course, all obsessed with guns.
None of these views are true of course but they conveniently do away with the necessity of using one's brain and eyes.
For example, I've lived here 10 years and I've yet to meet anyone who will admit to being a Republican or owning a gun, and all the people I work with are slim, environmentally aware and, yes, they have a great sense of humor AND an ability to laugh at themselves!
In contrast on my last trip back to the UK it was visibly noticeable that the nation is getting fatter, louder, less polite and dirtier. Litter is everywhere. I never see any here. And while a little cynicism is healthy, Britain now is so cynical it really depresses me.
So basically what we have here is a situation where people are just....well, people.... It is such an old cliche but nonetheless true that every race and nation has its good and its bad and everything in between.
A little story;
Soon after I arrived I had a strange conversation with a woman who had no idea where Britain was on the globe, and who was confused as to the difference between England and New England. She also said she had relatives in Ireland and Norway but she had no clue where either country was. I assumed this might be typical. A dangerous assumption.
Then I got into conversation with the check-out guy at my local supermarket, an unassuming middle aged man who didn't look like an international jet setter. It turned out not only did he know where England was and had been there, but he had hitch hiked from London to Scotland and been within a couple of miles of the tiny and obscure East Midlands village where I used to live. We had a pleasant conversation over the bar code scanner about Lincoln's beautiful Medieval cathedral and its merits relative to other great European cathedrals. How many people in the Uk could find Lincoln on a map?
It really doesn't pay to generalize.
Mind you, at least once a month I'm asked what part of Australia I'm from.....!
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gordonsglovpuppet (#113), the Edwards affair is not newsworthy because Edwards is not running for high office at present. It's just tabloid fodder.
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duhbuh (#117), if you really want to read about Edwards' peccadillos, you can find it on the Fox News website.
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I'm an American and an unashamed Anglophile, and visit the UK when possible.
On my last trip...I closed pubs for 13 straight nights (and sometimes joined the Aussies drinking on the steps)...and other trips, I have always been treated well by Brits. Sometimes unresponsive, or a little surly...but never unfriendly, or offensively. Probably has something to do with my inoffensive and nonconfrontational behavior.
What shocks me about the UK, is the almost utter lack of "identity" and pride-in-identity of Brits. They seem defensive and apologetic about being British.
I find this extremely puzzling, as of all countries and cultures, the UK has one of the proudest histories and greatest contributions to civilization in the history of the world.
Why is there so little pride in being British?
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I have enjoyed so many posts that I can't list them all or respond to all of them. I can't speak to the issue of how much alcohol is consumed by whom so I won't even comment on that either.
Consider this: Seeking altered states of consciousness is natural to the human brain. We are capable of many more levels of being than waking, sleeping and reverie. Thus, people seek different states of consciousness through meditation, yoga, various martial arts, and sometimes, sadly, through excessive use of alcohol and drugs.
I think that when the world is 'too much'
it is natural to seek some surcease. Everyone has different ways of accomplishing an altered state of being. Some may be less destructive to the body than others. Young people, especially, when confronted with all the challenges of accepting maturity and relinquishing the protection of childhood are vulnerable to over abuse of alcohol and drugs.
To conclude, I think anyone is serious when confronted with problems, issues or decisions that impact one's life, family, future
or prosperity.
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"That friends is what America is truly all about -- working so that your children have a better life than you. "
Well yes. And no. I would question that is necessarily true - or actually happening. I think, perhaps sadly, that wanting your (our?) kids to have a 'better' life has been translated in the last couple of decades into our kids having more 'stuff' but not - arguably - a better life. Define better. Does it just refer to economics and income?
Seems to me from observation that many kids and young people here are not better but actually LESS educated than their parents, although they do have loads and loads of 'stuff' to keep them occupied. (Books tend not to be among the 'stuff' though.) They may have cars, MP3 players, Playstations, DVDs, new bikes and endless activities and frequent trips to cheap restaurants, but is that always better? School hours are getting shorter, education is getting worse (even in the 10 years I've been here - and I've put 2 kids through the system) budgets are being cut, many many kids still drop out, and everyone is up to their ears in debt. Is this necessarily a better life than their parents?
Actually - it sounds more and more like Britain every day......................
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Looking at overall national consumption is probably a red herring. One must look to binge drinking, which I've heard is more out of control in Britain. In the US, binge drinking is also more stereotypical of the spring break or college party crowd. This seems to be done as a once in awhile or annual ritual, rather than the status quo. People who go to pubs in the US appear to be more careful to not over imbibe. That might be due to drinking and driving laws, or the work ethic of needing to productive the next day, or many other things that the US reveler is concerned about. It might be too that there is more of a negative stigma in America for a person who drinks beyond their limit.
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#128Desktopcynic
Sadly, you are so right! I may be wrong but I don't think that this is just an American issue. We, adults in general (dear people), tend to give our children things instead of time. What children really value is the real focused time that they spend with parents and other adults in their lives.
If we examine our own memories of childhood, while we might remember a special gift or two, what we most recall are the times we were taken fishing, read to or who taught us to swim, or to ride a bike or any of numerous other occasions a special adult spent time with us. Those memories are precious and more valuable than any material item.
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Ref #121
"So which would you rather see, a country that consumes too much alcohol and has a few drunkards walking around on Saturday nights, or a country ravaged by addiction to substances that kill people much more quickly than alcohol ever could"?
Neither. I would rather have an idyllic society where people are strong and confident enough to deal with their problems and inhibitions without resorting to alcohol, drugs and other placebos. Sadly, Nirvana will remain a mystical concept that will continue to elude the weaknesses inherent in our nature.
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"I think there are 2 historical experiences that us British have had that have made our current character… The second is the Empire and more importantly the loss of it. This had rendered taking yourself seriously (as a nation) almost impossible."
Given what has happened here in the US over the past 8 years, I think it’s easy to see why TV programs like The Daily Show and The Colbert Report have become tremendously popular.
…I do sense we're entering a golden age of American comedy!
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To #123 Desktop Cybic.
Don't know what part of the country you are in but if you have not met a Republican or a gun owner I would guess New Yourk City or Southern California.....
I would strongly suggest that you take a multi-day drive through the South or the Midwest. Liberal urban bastions exist in the US but they most definitely are not the US.
Stop by my place on a Friday evening and I'd be glad to take you to our weekly skeet shoot or to a local range where I will teach you the finer points of marksmanship with a modern civilian-legal military-style rifle -- the cursed "assault weapon."
Cheers.
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To #128 Desktopcynic...
"What is 'Better'?"
Indeed. For a large number of Americans "better" means taking their children out of public schools and teaching them at home. "Better" can also be defined by more US families choosing to have at least one paent to raise the children full time while doing without certain material things.
All through the 18th,19th and most of the 20th century "Better" in the US has meant more education, bigger homes, financial securty, and freedom to do what one wants vs. what one must. The commercialism and consumerism has caught up to many AMericans though and those standards have been changing. Afterall when a people commonly lives in homes that are 1,000 Square Meters (yes Meters...that's about 3,000 SF for the metricphobic), own 2-3 cars, have a televsion in almost every room, and eat out almost every day -- what more can there reasonably be on the material end?
Yes, America is guilty of consumerism, but undeneath all that clutter Americans want to insure their children can continue to have the same freedoms other generations have.
The Eurosnobs no doubt will mock this but might be shocked to learn that the idea of holding a prsioner without imediately officially charging him is unconscienable to most Americans; as is Closed Circuit TV in public areas, and government intercepts and of mail and telephones.
It is this staunchly independant and private character that has defined and heartened Americans. Combine this Americans legendary capacity for charity and that is largely why most of Europe is not speaking German today and have the ability to rely on their socialist nanny states to take care of their every basic needs -- an idea absolutely anathema to most Americans.
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#126
What shocks me about the UK, is the almost utter lack of "identity" and pride-in-identity of Brits. They seem defensive and apologetic about being British.
Of course we are! We imbibe Post Colonial Angst with our mothers' milk. Afghanistan, Iraq, most of Africa, Australasia, India/Pakistan, you name it, and looking back through the historical records you'll find we had a hand in it somewhere at some time.
About the only place we haven't colonized, exploited and messed up much is South America, and the Spanish went there instead. It will take a long time to live it all down and escape our reputation. The Vikings, the Mongols, the Romans, the British......... ravenous hordes, the lot!
(Even if we did partially redeem ourselves by withstanding the Blitz and licking Hitler - with the Allies' help.)
Post Colonial Angst. That's why we drink. Well, that's my excuse anyway.
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#133
I'll put it in my diary. Yes I live in California, not far from Silicon Valley. Lots of nice wine around here, even if we are facing a crucial shortage of GOP-ers and guns!
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#135Desktopcynic
Aren't you being just a little too harsh?
Isn't it time for all to stop taking responsibility for the sins and depredations of fathers, forefathers, ancestors etc.? It is enough to take responsibility for our own actions, to make sincere efforts to better ourselves and the world around us. We can't change the past but we can live a positive present and create a more peaceful future.
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Destopcynic
California wines ARE quite excellent!
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Justin Webb
If you have never attended a US citizenship ceremony you should do so. Maybe this will help you understand American "seriousness."
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139 aquaeizonagal
I second that - I attended one myself last week - as one of those to be sworn in. :-)
I'm feeling serious.
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Anna-liza
Welcome and congratulations!
It is kind of scary when you actually take the oath of allegiance. It is very similar to the one our government officials, military, police and firefighters take.
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threnodious#87
"Perhaps we should derive some comfort from the fact that, while our political power has waned, our genetic legacy marches on remorselessly. Rude louts? So that's where you got it from."
Think of me as your mirror. I am giving you a taste of your own medicine. I am only giving you what I seen in you. There is one big difference though. I am always right, you are always wrong.
Gromulus #88
"Is the view good up there, MarcusAureliusII?"
The air is clear, my head is clear, my thinking is clear and the correctness of my facts are clear. What about where you are. Little bit of fog in London? Indoors too? Late one last night?
andfreedom #90
I think I made it clear why I gave up my studies in France. I did not have any work permit. The decision to go there was mine and the decision to leave and when to leave was mine. Have no idea what you are talking about.
potatoman65 #94
"Has Alchohol Sapped The British Spirit?"
"Ah, now it's clear. The blog is merely a front for Justin's MarcusAureliusll Spoof. Very clever. ;-)"
spudster, the spoof is.....that it isn't a spoof.
simon21 #99
"This sounds like a personal confession rather then a commentary on the issue Alcohol does not release a person's "true nature" To assume, for example, a drunken woman is in fact "truly" promiscuos and is showing her "real personality" will, quite correctly, land you in jail in most countries"
Not a confession, just an observation. And it is the expert opinion of virtually all professional career counselors in the US. They usually publish articles around the end of the year with this very warning. As for sexual encounters with uninhibited women whether drunk or sober, what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms or hotel rooms is not illegal in the US. As for less civilized places, anything is possible.
descloro #104
Why not make them all doubles just to be sure it works.
aquagal #138
"California wines ARE quite excellent!"
Finally something we can agree on. The best of them are outstanding and the equal of anything coming out of France.
I'm reminded of Owen Bennet-Jones queston to Sir Christopher Meyer's during his interview on "The Interview"; why are they (Americans) so rich.
The obvious answer is just look at the competition. Just try to avoid tripping over them.
I have a serious job which I take very seriously. And as a reward, it pays serious money.
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Desktop, I can explain why you don't meet any gun-owning republicans where you are. They have all moved up to North Idaho, where you struggle to find a gunless person or a democrat. It's heaven up here!
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New Orleans and Las Vegas both cracked down on alcohol-related crime to clean up their image, and I think both have become much nicer places to visit as a result.
San Diego just banned alcohol on public beaches. Not that San Diego has a similar image problem at all. I guess we will see what effect that has.
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Yes, Brits are among the most persistent binge drinkers we have ever seen.
The comparison with spring breakers in FL or Cancun doesn't wash. First, spring breakers are on holiday. Second, it's ONE week of the year for the young people involved. It's NOT week in, week out, weekdays, week-ends, before, during and after work. Third, most of the Americans who go on drinking binges cut it out by the time they've turned 30. Not so in the UK, where people regularly get stinking drunk from youth to old age (any many Brits look far older than their years due to the combo of chain smoking, binge drinking, and cheap holidays in the sun).
You can walk down the average small town American main street on a week-end and not have to step over piles of vomit or hide from violent drunks. That's not the case in the UK. All across the country, town centres become no-go areas at night due to belligerent drunks of both sexes and all ages. I've seen drunken brawls break out on our small town High Street at four in the afternoon!
One of our neighbors was partially blinded because he accidentally bumped a stranger one night. The (drunk) stranger smashed a bottle and drove the glass into our neighbor's face. He nearly died. Even though police were right there on the corner, the offending drunk wasn't even arrested!
The behaviour of drunk Brits is appalling and disgusting. No wonder so many cities "served" by Ryanair have come to dread the arrival of British stag and hen parties. Ask the people of Prague what British tourists are like. Sadly, Krakow is now starting to suffer the same fate.
People in the UK don't even blink when co-workers show up drunk or with incapacitating hangovers. Many Brits are actually proud of their binge drinking.
Too many Americans still retain this rose-coloured Masterpiece Theatre view of the UK. The reality is very different and much uglier.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It seems to me that American's have an odd relationship with alcohol. Many of us enjoy drinking moderately, some of us over indulge and some think that alcohol is some kind of demonic invention. In several states, as far as I know, there are still DRY COUNTIES where alcohol, theoretically, may not be bought, sold or consumed.
When we lived for a time in rural Mississippi, the richest people in a four county area were a couple who owned a liquor store in a WET COUNTY. Their store was in a corner of the state adjacent to three dry counties. Go figure it out! Someone was buying and drinking in more than one county. No one talked about this but nearly everyone visited this liquor store at one time or maybe more than one time. There was no public drinking. It was all done behind closed doors.
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#145Jeanetteisabella
Wow!
You have described a very ugly picture. Perhaps I AM naive but this is not my perception of the UK. I am sure you will get some rebuttal to your post.
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In California, my friends and I take turns being the designated driver and make sure people have a place to sleep at the house if necessary. Some of the best parties one friend planned had a group of us sleeping on the floor in sleeping bags, getting up the next day for a big breakfast, and heading out for a long hike. It's not about the alcohol. It's about friendship and good times.
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When I lived in France around 1974, there was an article in Paris Match that claimed that one in four adult French males and one in twelve adult french females was an alcoholic. Everywhere I went in Europe, a lot of people seemed drunk and nobody thought anything of it. The typical French drinking habits were different from the current British habits though. They would be sipping wine all day long at a rate just fast enough to keep them in a pleasant stupor. It started before breakfast and went through the whole day. Typically they'd consume about 4 to 5 liters a day. A popular cafe drink among students was creme de menthe with milk (I'm not kidding, they liked that disgusting combination.) Some of the cheap wine was so awful, they had to cut it with water to get it down. Then invented wine in a plastic bottel and in a plastic bag long before they ever had it here. In medical school there was a physiology lecture by a doctor explaining the function of each different type of alcoholic beverage during the course of a meal from the aperatif to stimulate apetite at the start to the digestif to help digest the last morsel of food with detailed functional descriptions of their role and how they worked for each course. It was really amazing. I'll bet there has never been such a lecture in an American medical school ever.
As the economic crises and political tensions in Europe deepen and widen in the coming years as I think they inevitably will, I think that the phenomenon of the British alcoholic perpetual binge drinker will become more and more widespread across the continent. It's purpose is to escape from a interminably boring, meaningless, and hopeless existance.
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I would rather have an idyllic society where people are strong and confident enough to deal with their problems and inhibitions without resorting to alcohol, drugs and other placebos.
Dominicked feeler
you sanctamonious do gooder as they say in the playground.
what a boring attitude you have.
I wish you could live without your religion, or car or pompous I'm perfect(waiting to breakdown life.)attitude.
What makes you think some do not get stoned just to have fun.
smack is apparently by all literary accounts good.
Go watch trainspotting.
Some things are crutches, but others are fun. and what is fun to some is not to all.
and one mans crutch is another mans trip.
Seriously lighten up.
And don't take ANYTHING from your doctor.
Justin should open a truely worthwile debate here.
Prohibition!!
Great Idea wrong time?
or
What a bloody great waste of time money lives potential and creative ,wait.
all go watch BILL HICKS.
as he said "if you don't like drugs(and here booze) then take all your tapes cd,etc and burn them , because the good stuff was all made by people real High"
Why is america obsessed by the War On Drugs.
all these military flights to columbia where the piolet is on stimulants.lol
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#149kool2look
I think your perspective is more typical of young adults in the US today. Drinking and driving has such dire consequences that responsible people just don't do that. You made a good point: "It's about friendship and good times."
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or was it the anthrax from the us guy who then got a bunch of papers funded and published on antrax only killing a few and all sourced by the military budget.
and have all the "terrorist suspects" that were darker than a white guy been apologised to.
the best defence industry is to stop building bombs and weapons.
Now just wait for the nano biotech lovelies to come.
that will give the armagedonists wet dreams
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145 not too far off but really you old prude.
"Hot Fuzz "was about the anti hoodie oldies anti youth getting drunk etc.
torquay is pretty bad with both torists and local vandals and drunks, but never would I dream of drying out the UK or the states,
I would like to see alchol prohibiton until you'll figure to legalise pot.
I think people would soon learn to recognise the symptoms of prohibiton as to those problems that then get blamed on pot.
which I think is still way less harmful than booze.which I still think should be legal.speaking of legal. did you know that apparently pot is not.
:;)
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Raymond Chandler 1954
And this is fron 'The Long Goodbye',.. Hello! Same could be said about most escape velocity vehicals.
Personally I like to drink, I used to like drugs, and before,... LSD was enlightening, after, a horror story I won't share. The point is, either Jack or Ed commented about alcohol and it: 'being one mans pleasure, another mans nightmare',.. well,.. there ya are.
Marguerite Duras
Tell that to the drunk asking for pemnnies on the street corner. There is no mysterie in wasted lives, alcohol is an escape. The first to make it longer lasting will rule the marketplace,.. oh, but its illeagal and in powder form,..
dance, dance, dance, all she wants to do is dance.
shallow post
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Henry Miller
An Open Letter to Surrealists Everywhere, The Cosmological Eye (1939).
It should of been a letter to alcoholics and addicts everywhere, talk about pessimissim. he only cosmo's this guy saw was through the bottom of a bottle telescope.
peace til enlightenment
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"Drunkenness ... is temporary suicide."
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), British philosopher, mathematician. The Conquest of Happiness, ch. 2 (1930).
And Justin had to ask, your countrymen have known all along.
a hole in one,.. makes it empty
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duhbuh:
"Forgive a drunken spirit-sapped Brit for asking, but why has the John Edwards (D) scandal been ignored by the BBC when it was only too happy to run the far less convincing allegations about John McCain (R)?"
Because it's possible that it's just a false scandal' also, life is too serious right now here and we've had too many political scandals.
Because no one cares about John Edwards anymore, even here.
Because the BBC prefers Democrats to Republicans and they dislike McCain.
If it's true, it is likely the end of his national political ambitions. But really - no one cares about Edwards now.
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Dear Mr. Webb: A most insightful post, and I'm certain you will be criticized for it back home.
The Andrew Keen article was also insightful--and thanks for directing us there--I've bookmarked him. His comment:
'Americans take themselves, their country, their history and their future more seriously than English people. It's the Puritan legacy, of course, a moral calling that is cavalierly satirized by the disrespectful English.'
is quite true...maybe a tad harsh toward the English, though.
I would direct you toward two books: Paul Johnson's Birth of the Modern, and Washington's God, by Michael Novak, both of which give a great deal of insight into the American psyche.
The US in the 18th/19th centuries did have a serious alcoholism problem, and the temperance movement arose to address it.
It over-reached by convincing the country to embrace Prohibition, but I have read that it did have the intended effect of reducing consumption, and alcoholism. It was the unintended effects, its spurring of the growth of organized crime, that led to its repeal.
In its wake, however, Alcoholics Anonymous arose, a uniquely American self-help approach based on the embrace of both faith and morality in the context of a supportive network of friendship.
Presently, in the genius of the American system, much of the public policy on alcohol is decided at the local township level, and we have a patchwork of 'wet' and 'dry' towns, 'liquor-by-the-drink' or 'beer only' establishments, etc. One crusading pastor in Louisville campaigned for (and passed) a referendum which banned liquor sales within a specific set of voting precincts, identifying alcoholism as a major source of decay.
Drunk-driving laws are draconian here--jail on the first offense, plus fines, plus insurance rates go through the roof. Much as I might want that beer with my hamburger, I drink iced tea, unless I know I have an extra hour to sit and let that beer cycle through my liver.
It's just not worth the risk! And, I've met people who have driven drunk and killed innocent people--they lead haunted lives.
On the other side of the equation, this country is fueled by hope, the specific hope that if one works diligently, lives uprightly, and doesn't fall prey to vice, that person will eventually thrive in our atmosphere of freedom and opportunity. Cynics can sneer all they wish, but it is not a vain hope here.
Also, we retain a national memory that we have been uniquely blessed, and should try to express our gratitude by uprightness and generosity. Church attendance (especially in the South and Midwest) is pretty high, and the general consensus of 'The 10 Commandments + The Golden Rule' has a real power in the culture. Drunkenness as a lifestyle is not met with much understanding.
We are deeply imperfect here, and I inwardly cringe when I read the kind of glowing compliments you pay, but they are very appreciated.
Come see us in Tennessee sometime. We'll take you on a tour of the Jack Daniels distillery, where the world's best whiskey is distilled in a 'dry' county!
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simon 21:
"The US gives as good as it gets and should stope the puerile whining"
I think being attacked in the street for being an American is not an example of whining.
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145, JeanetteIsabella.
Unfortunately true. But they are not alone. How about the Irish, Swedes, Russians, Poles....
Is it cold, dank weather that encourages drinking? Or is it hypoglycemia? Think of all the potatoes and sweets the Brits and Irish eat.
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I think maybe a lot of our American contributors live in the suburbs and only visit the downtown parts of big cities. Try Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, Hoboken or the Bronx on a Saturday night. Or some of the Hudson valley towns. They have lots of bars in close proximity so you get the same effect. The difference I noticed was that the drunks in the USA tended to be older. Did see vomting, fighting and urinating in public on a regular basis. Just not in the all white burbs where the tendancy is to drink at home as you have to drive everywhere.
Notting Hill Hammer:
This is a very odd description. I was born and grew up in NYC and lived for many years in a suburb along the Hudson, and the things you are talking about are unimagineable.
As for the Bronx - a lot goes on there that is very destructive, but vomiting in the streets?
Think again.
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150, Marcus.
The Grasshopper, a cocktail common in America, is 1/3 green creme de menthe, 1/3 white creme de cacao and 1/3 heavy cream. It is delicious.
Creme de cacao and heavy cream (half and half) is a traditional European drink, which I associate with grandmas rather than drunks (though times may have changed). Some people drink for taste. Others chug-a-lug beer or whiskey. The former tend not to be drunks.
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Perhaps Americans take life more seriously because they feel they have some control over their future both personally and for their country. And Brits feel the opposite. That is why they drink, to escape the reality of helplessness and hopelessness.
The cure for Europe will come when it becomes Eurabia. Dr. Rowan Williams, the head of the Anglican Church said adoption of some elements of Sharia Law in Britain is unavoidable.
In the Islamic religion, I think it is forbidden to dring alcohol. What is the penalty under Sharia for drinking alcohol? Stoning to death? Beheading?
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Marguerite Duras 1987
Another way to say she'll shed her clothing
someone just tried to break into my car, the alarm went off and I grabbed my gun. No quesytions asked, this late at night I'd of shot'em.
whew, need a drink
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allmymarbles:
Creme de cacao and heavy cream (half and half) is a traditional European drink, which I associate with grandmas rather than drunks (though times may have changed).
Apparently some things are the same here - it's stricly a grandma drink, or a matron drink (future grandmas).
Grandmas guzzle those drinks day and night - behind closed doors, of course. Or after a night out with other grandmas.
They are more likely to make them fat then drunk.
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I'm British (only because my parents had sex in this country national identity is nothing to be proud of) and I've lived in America. Saying that there is some universal American culture is like saying that Manchester/London/Dublin/Edinburgh and Stockholm are all European and therefore alike.
Justin Webbs trite, pathetic generalizations about alleged drinking cultures bear no resemblance to my experiences in either country. Simply because I've seen both countries drunk and sober. Alcohol is just another drug the masses are seduced into to keep them happy. It's great for keeping people form spending their money on self improvement and kills enough people to prevent too many state pensions from being paid out. Great stuff.
The truth is that humans are just as foolish whatever flag they've been forced to live under. Let's drink to that.
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#159Oldsouth
You said:
"We retain a national memory that we have been uniquely blessed and should try to express our gratitude by uprightness and generosity."
I think that is a beautiful expression of our collective American consciousness.
My immigrant parents told me almost daily that I should be thankful to be born in America and that I owed a debt to this country that could only be paid through hard work and righteous living.
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164, Marcus.
Who says taboos are universally observed? Graven images are forbidden in Islam, yet we have the unique Persian miniatures.
Alcohol is also forbidden, yet everyone knows the famous lines of Omar Khayyam:
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou beside me ....." (The vineyards of Shiraz were famous)
Pork is forbidden, yet the only time I ever ate wild boar was in a village in the north of Iran.
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#159Oldsouth
You also wrote: 'This country is fueled by hope"
So true! The price of gasoline can go where it will but hope is free!
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allmymarbles,
I'm not usually a fan of those sweet drinks. When I'm in the tropics I'll drink some rum concoctions like a pina colada or a frozen daiquiri once in a while, even a Singapore Sling but in general, I'm both a beer and wine drinker when I drink. My rate of alcohol consmuption for some unexplainable reason has dropped considerably in about the last 15 years and I have no explanation for it. I've got a cellar full of mostly classified Bordeaux from the great vintages of the 1980s and 1990. Fortunately they will keep for a very long time. If my rate of consumption doesn't increase, I may have enough wine for the rest of my life.
I love the taste of Samuel Adams Boston Lager beer. Ever since I tasted that beer about 20 years ago, I've never liked any others as much. I'd probably drink a lot more of it but it is very fattening. In a recent tasting of English, Irish, and local microbrewery beers on a visit to the west coast, I didn't like any of them. I think my preferences are closer to German style beers. The most commonly sold American beers, Bud, Miller and Coors taste awful to me, I'd rather drink water.
As for distilled spirits I am a Scotch drinker. My favorite is Glenlivet 15 year old French Oak Cask. I cold sip that all afternoon...if I could stay awake that long. After many years of lack of knowledge about Scotch, I was taught by a freelance photographer I met on a cruise about 20 years ago.
I have to disagree with Old South. I am not a fan of Jack Daniels. I personally found it to be harsh and rather unpleasant. I like fine Bourbon much better.
I'll drink just about anything but it has to be excellent. The only martinis I'll drink must be made with Tanqueray with a dash of Noilly Pratt dry vermouth. No other gin will do. And of course as anyone who knows about gin is aware, it must be stirred, not shaken.
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allmymarbles
You see any drunks staggering around Teheran the way they do apparantly in London?
OK, I'm taking a poll. On average, in PMQT, what percentage of MPs would not pass a sobriety test if they were driving and stopped by a cop?
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The waxing poetic, talk of nationality in alcoholic terms, I'm, pardon me, but feeling this is wasted time and futile less then enlightening topic,... enjoy some these writers, oddly amused of others, and disturbed on occasion when I re read my own.
But Brits that drink?
BTW, Born in NYC, friends, family blah blah, you don't puke in the street, heck public intox is no joke. Bars on every corner (pubs) and in Port Jervis NY, I used to turn first floor living rooms and restroom/kitchen into pubs/eaterie, basicly lunch and breakfast type places. The elderly folk did that to have friends over, and afford things. Like living. As many that opened closed and folks passed. God I miss those days.
still armed
no peace
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3%
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172,
No, but neither do you see them in Honolulu. The few drunks you do see on the streets in American cities, the "winos," ae considered disgusting and given a wide birth.
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171, Marcus.
Oh, I am so impressed with your breeding and connaiseurship. How good of you to share your experience (and your taste buds) with us.
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The first few months of living in the UK shattered all my American stereotypes of English culture. I can simply listen for the sounds of drunken shouts to figure out what time it is. By 2:00 a.m. there is a whirlwind of fights and then, in the morning, while I make my way to the university, the street is strewn with vomit and broken glass. What is even more disturbing, all this activity occurs in the city centre. Good luck trying to replicate that behaviour in any American city centre.
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That Justin can find nothing more interesting to write about than British drinking habits is depressing enough. That our American friends find is so fascinating that they can fill 180 odd posts with it is downright startling. Is life really so dull over there you have nothing better to worry about than being judgmental about the minority of British boozers who spoil it for everyone else?
And please stop judging an entire nation by the conduct of a handful of louts. It does neither nation any credit.
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threnodio (#178) - if the problem were a matter of 'a handful of louts' I for one wouldn't have contributed to this thread (see earlier). It is the self-delusion on the part of many who matter in the UK, the belief that the binge alcohol problem is confined to a handful of louts, that has prevented any meaningful and constructive response to the problem. What that response should be I for one do not know. But there sure is a problem ...
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The reason being (so I'm told) that a person walking down the sidewalk (pavement) can be observed by watching busybodies to turn the corner, but nobody can say whether they entered the pub or simply continued down the sidewalk (pavement)....Here in Britain there are literally thousands of pubs situated with their entrances so positioned.Slainte!
ed
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#179 - timsingapore
No the problem is that you have 60 million people living in an area roughly the size of Oregon. Of course this is going to focus any apparent problems because they crop up frequently over very small distances. Of course it is delusional to pretend there is no problem. It is absurd to suggest it is nationwide demographically or geographically. It is also interesting to see how quickly these criticisms drop away when some of those 'young thugs' put on combat fatigues and turn up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The whole discussion is being marred by prejudice and hypocrisy and I simply do not believe that, in an election year, you do not have something more meaningful to talk about.
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As a health practitioner who who trained at a school with mixed American and British students I can confirm that the Americans were amazed at the level of alcohol consumption that was considered to be 'social' drinking in UK.
But one of the main points about America is that it is a very varied and polarized country. You can live in one part of a region or even a single city and not know how the 'other half' lives. Perhaps the most significant example. The homicide figures for American cities is about 1000% higher than European or Canadian. But the vast majority of these deaths occur in certain areas of certain states/cities. Not many miles away from this carnage, that would make many of the worlds political trouble spots look like havens of peace, you can find a woman living alone who can't find her front door key because she hasn't used it in years. (This is a real person I encoutered).
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180 - Ed Iglehart
There is a very interesting bit of trivia to explain that. At one time, responsibility for policing was divided between boroughs the boundaries of which broadly speaking followed streets. So you would have a situation where the saloon bar would come off one street and the public bar off another and were therefore in different boroughs. It was commonplace for wanted people to simply move from one bar to another if the police came for them and there was absolutely nothing the police could do about it.
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threnodious #178
I think Justin Webb is just expressing a manifestation of his experience of culture shock which Alvin Toffler wrote about in the 1970s. He enters through a door, sits in a chair, maybe takes a nap for a few hours, and after what is a brief time of conscious experience he walks out through the same door into an entirely different world. The one he left behind is still fresh in his memory and making comparisons is unavoidable. I did the same thing but in reverse. All of the familiar objects are there in both worlds. Houses, cars, people, streets, furniture, appliances, every one of them. But they are different. They are not quite familiar in the way we interact with them. Some are different in ways that are very subtle like the feel of a chair or table made to metric dimensions on one side of the mirror in Europe and to English dimensions on the other (American) side. Surprising how a fraction of an inch can make such a difference in sitting at a table. And some differences are much less subtle, they are in your-face-obvious in fact. Those are the ones you notice most.
If I want to recapture a little of this feeling without traveling, all I have to do is go to an IKEA store. To me it is a vast warehoue of overpriced, stupidly designed, worthless junk. Even on sale it's hardly worth a look. Yet the merchandise reminds me exactly of the kind of things I saw in Europe. I can't understand how they stay in business here.
This topic is one more effort to understand and explain the differences in the two civilizations by looking their most superficial and trivial consequences. The real underlying causes and explanation of those differences lie much much deeper, far deeper than most non Americans ever delve into. I'm not certain if it's because they won't try hard enough, misdirect their efforts because they can't or won't go down the right path, or because they just can't. Allistair Cooke tried to explain America to Brits for probably over 40 years and I think by and large as entertaining as he was, he failed. They don't get it. Perhaps when Justin Webb's son who was born here grows up as an American and not a Brit, his astonishment and curiousity will increase to the point where he digs deeper. I think if he writes a book soon, he should plan on sequels after intervals of several years to look back on his earlier impressions and reflect each time how incomplete and out of context the previous one was. Would he ever begin to understand it after even decades if he tried? Can't say.
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Vomit alert...Although London is at last beginning to have a much more European feel to it, opening more coffee bars and places to meet friends other than the local pub, which is great, the filthy pavements still shock me every time I go home. I am ashamed to think what visitors think of us; perhaps its because of the sheer number of pubs there still are on every high street.. but there are revolting vomit stains in almost every corner or doorway of every building. I think it should be an offense to vomit in the street, as it is to urinate or leave dog poop behind. New York has many problems that we thankfully don't have, but drunks throwing up in public places is not one of them. Please cant we do something about the piles of sick.. make the pub owners clean it up, or something! Its quite revolting.
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threnodious;
What I love about your posts is that they make such easy examples for me to cite to make my own points.
"That Justin can find nothing more interesting to write about than British drinking habits is depressing enough. That our American friends find is so fascinating that they can fill 180 odd posts with it is downright startling. Is life really so dull over there you have nothing better to worry about than being judgmental about the minority of British boozers who spoil it for everyone else?"
How typical of the tyrannical mind that it will not tolerate speech about any topic it finds uninteristing or disturbing. Now a non tyrannical mind would just go on to some other one of countless threads on BBC's blog sites and get involved in something else for the time being but this one wants everyone else to shut up about what he doesn't want discussed. Just like the Chinese government doesn't want any discusssion about Tibet. So despotic, so European. So infantile. And oh how they can dish it out but they can't take it.
timsingapore
The widespread problem of alcoholism in Britain and in fact all over Europe is only one symptom of a much more deep seeded problem of European society in general. That is a realization on an individual level that they have no control over their lives. They are helpless and hopeless. The USSR was an alcoholic society for the same reason. The EUSSR is replacing the individual governments which put up a sham pretense of democracy with a central tyranny which doesn't. That alcoholism is not only widespread but that it is tolerated is symptomatic of an entirely disfunctional civilization in the throes of final collapse. The basic premises it was founded on which are the economic underpinnings the American taxpayers provided during the cold war and which have now been removed make that civilization unsustainable because it is no longer economically viable on its own. How can you fire your subordinate for not functioning due to alcoholism when not only the laws prohibit it but you and your superiors are in exactly the same boat? The prospect that Europeans will actually have to work for a living, that the cafe/pub society is over, that they have to compete with Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Brazilians on an equal level is unpalatable. And the truth of it is, that even if they sobered up and wanted to, they no longer can. Their lives will be far poorer in the future, the decades long party at American expense is over because American pulled the plug on it. Reason enough to hate America.
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MarcusAureliarse2
(I assume that you wanted some kind of response to your pathetic deliberate misspelling of my user name - so you have one)
". . .will not tolerate speech about any topic it finds uninteristing or disturbing".
I said nothing about not toleratating any subject. I merely reflected that I found it shallow and irrelevant. This remains my view.
I can add only that to engage in a debate with someone who at #142 wants us to believe "I am always right, you are always wrong" is to embark on an exercise of such abject futility that it is not worth the candle.
Have a nice life - when you get one.
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threnodious
Thank you for proving me right once again and so quickly and convincingly at that. It's one of the things I can always count on.
BTW, I have never clicked on the complain icon even once, not even in the case of the most offensive postings I've seen. Why would I want to risk the disappearance of the embarrassing evidence of what some people who post here reveal about themselves?
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As a Brit living in New York (state) with a young family for 3 years, I think you are spot on in your thinking. There is simply no tolerance for under age drinking from parents, police and society in most communities in the US. Our kids have a well structured program of activities, all the facilties we could ever hope for, and a nice community to grow up in. The comparable suburban area in London, on the other hand, has little to offer, and, as you say, plenty of drunken disorderly behaviour.
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AAPrescott #182
"But one of the main points about America is that it is a very varied and polarized country. You can live in one part of a region or even a single city and not know how the 'other half' lives. Perhaps the most significant example. The homicide figures for American cities is about 1000% higher than European or Canadian. But the vast majority of these deaths occur in certain areas of certain states/cities."
Yes, 1000% is about ten times the rate. That sounds about right. In some areas of some cities, the police are viewed as an invading force. It is no more acceptable for a no go zone to exist for police in an American city than it is for a no go zone for Pakistan's army in their own country.
The recent rise of murders committed with knives in Britain proves what many Americans have said about firearms, guns don't kill people, people kill people. If they can't get access to one means of killing, they'll just find another. What will Britain do after it bans knives, ban rope? The beauty of firearms is that it is a great equalizer eliminating the disparity of physical size and strength. An 80 year old 100 pound woman is potentially as deadly as a 20 year old 300 pound man. In the US it is not only legal to kill intruders in your home, those who do are considered heroes. The term we use is justifiable homocide. Frankly it is much rarer than you might believe. The prospect of a burglar meeting up with an armed resident might give them pause to reflect on the consequences.
"Not many miles away from this carnage, that would make many of the worlds political trouble spots look like havens of peace, you can find a woman living alone who can't find her front door key because she hasn't used it in years. (This is a real person I encoutered)."
That's not as common as it once was. By incarcerating criminals for long periods of time, we make the streets safer. We have about 2 million people in prison, about one in 150. If it has to, it will increase. That's another thing about the US that is more serious than in Europe, the way we deal with crime. Last week, BBC reported that a drunken woman on a Lufthansa plane tried to break into the cockpit, made a complete nuissance of herself, and had to be restrained until the plane landed. She might be prosecuted and might be sued but she was let go by police. And then again she might not be. In the US, that woman would have been taken off the plane in handcuffs by the FBI and incarcerated for a long time. She would probably have also been blacklisted from ever flying again. She put the lives of up to several hundred people at risk. How much more serious does it have to get before action is taken? In Europe apparantly a lot.
We not only use arms to protect ourselves against intruders but potentially against the government itself. I wonder how many lives might have been saved in places like Nazi Germany and the USSR if the secret police were faced with a possible barrage of flying lead when they knocked on the door in the middle of the night to take people away to death camps. America can be very violent. But the potential for street crime which has to be controlled, repressed, and punished is a price Americans are willing to pay for the right to bear arms to protect themselves. It is so embedded in the American cuture and psyche, that any politician who tries to take it away has committed political suicide.
It should be clear that even America's government cannot always tell Americans what to do. What arrogance and unrealistic expectations Europeans have to think for even one second that they can dictate to America or Americans what to do. And then they get surprised and angry when they get a cold shoulder. They should consider themselves lucky. It could just as easily be flying hot lead.
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"Figures comparing what happened between July 2007 and June 2008 with a year earlier show that in the most recent 12 months, there were 9,997 reports of knife crime in the capital. A year before, it was 11,642 - a fall of 14%.
Gun crime has fallen by a similar amount (14%) and youth violence is also down by 7.7%."
www.mpa.gov.uk/downloads/committees/mpa/080724-11-appendix01.pdf
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funny threnodious, there seems to have been a lot of sudden press coverage of knife crimes including killings in the UK lately. Do you think London is not representative of the UK as a whole or is BBC just sensationalizing a story which is not particularly notable so that it can fill up space?
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I merely give the figures, I venture no opinion.
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On reflection, it is a sensible question and it deserves a sensible answer. There was a spike (no pun intended) in knife crime in the early summer which attracted a lot of media attention. There is a tendency for the 'gutter press' to latch on to a story which is eye catching and run with it for the sensation value rather than examining the facts.
Politicians for their part love a story they can latch onto which diverts public attention from the huge hole they have dug for themselves. Put the two together and you have an unholy alliance of disinformation. This is purely a personal view and remember I don't live there but I think 'just sensationalizing a story which is not particularly notable so that it can fill up space?' sums it up perfectly. They should have waited for the figures.
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Aquarizonagal,
Especially for you! Sindy, a real doll!
xx
ed
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what a strange conversation this is.
alcohol does have many problems.
many drunks I know turn into happy pot smokers and calm down.
but they face jail.
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oldest joke .
america was founded by puritans and australia by convicts.
that's why the aussies party so much better.
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and MA though you say little of consquence just like to add some fuel for you.
the British have already banned most knives.
In fact it is illegal to carry a hammer.....to the pub.
any thing that can be used as a weapon is considered a weapon, if carried out of context to it's application.
Knives can only be so long.
Unless of course you just finished making it in your forge.
Don't ever give up drinking yourself , we would lose your input.
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Kecsmar keep making sense and I will think you must be a pot head.
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Ah, that's an old one now, Ralph! There is significantly less football hooliganism in England now - even when fans travel abroad there are fewer arrests and incidents compared to the bad old days of the '70s and '80s. There are more kids and families going to the football now than there used to be (and there would be more if it wasn't so extortionate!).
strange tah so few notice the truth.
Now me the self confessed pot head(who never gatewayed to coke ,samcketc, but have spent time with takers of all.
And time in the UK rave sceen where Extacy was the thing.
on footbal hooligans.
WHEN did they calm down.
OH WHEN THEY STARTED GOING TO RAVES.
strange back in the early 90's when castle morton and letchlade happened, that there were lots of now ex football fans. all feeling the loved up revolution and on the terraces "loving it".
alcohol was near nonexistant at the raves.
Bongs were everywhere.
pub sales were in the hole.
what to do. tax revenues were down,( cheap frnch trips did no good for the pubs either)
then came the Criminal Justice Bill.
Better party somewhere where you can get booze and we can get taxes.
then the usual shouts of complaint at the Youth and the New drug(that many had taken themselves but not known because it came from a doc in a white coat).
then the violence started to return.
raves got all drunk and e and some spirit was spilt .
But it is amazing to me to have watched a drug I never took and did not really like and still do not like. calmed the terraces.
and no one noticed, they were to busy complaining about the new music and the rebellious youth.
Bunch of drunken old tarts.
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As an unrepentant Englishman, albeit an ex-pat, I would like to apologise unreservedly to the American people for any offence occasioned by the policeman who shook Mr.Obama's hand. It was an unforgivable breach of protocol and the fact that he was drunk out of his tiny head at the time is no excuse.
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The vast majority of murders in the States are restricted to the subculture of the city ghettos. The ghettos, being circumscribed geographically, do not impinge on the lives of ordinary Americans.
I live only a seven-minute drive from a huge American city and do not bother to lock my door. The only crimes in my area are committed by inept sneak thieves who are often caught PDQ.
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Jack,
I'll second that, from very extensive personal observation!Peace, man ()
ed
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Well well well!! I must say, what a nice refreshing change from the usual thrhowing around of stereo types that usually adorne these threads when ever Justin daires to compare US and UK culture!! Normal discussing of personal experiences and one's personal knoledge of a given topic is what adults do, after all. Congradulations everyone!!
For my two sents. Regarding drinking. Look! Everyone in every country around the world drinks and has fun! Everyone in every country around the world I'm sure at some point during their lives gets drunk once or twice! However, I agree with Justin and the 'Andrew Keen bloger that it is simply not generally acceptable in America to be publically drunk as it apparently is in the UK. There is an expectation in the US that one is not only to act professionally and appropriately at their place of, say, work, but also in public as well. One who, say, gets incredibly publically drunk and fights, shouts, vomits what have you in the Us, is generally looked down upon. They are generally thought of as immature and rude. People generally don't wish to associate with people like that (over the age of 30 that is). This stigma doesn't seem to be applyed to similar people in the UK. Also, the 'bars/pubs being in city centers/most Americans have to drive to them is bull in my opinion!! Americans who live in cities walk to bars just as people in other countries do, and those who live in the suberbes who must drive, generally just go to a liquer store and bring drinks to someone's house.
Id guess that this is how its done in the UK as well. Also I also agree with the intencion on drinking. From what I know, Americans usually just socially drink with friends, where as Britains tend to more offten drink to get wasted. In my personal opinion, i would never drink to just get drunk unless I suffered a great personal tragidy.
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When I first became familiar with England, what surprised me most was how catty the men were. I had always thought of this as a female trait.
Reading the postings, and how catty they can be, I assume that many of the writers are English men. Don't misunderstand -- I enjoy you guys.
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National Anthem: Where the head is held high, And the mind is without the fear of competition, Into that country of charlatans, My Father, I may be Happily born again and again! - British Ravindra Nath Tagore. P.S. : Charlatan analogue = Indian Munshiji Name: [Personal details removed by Moderator]
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National Anthem:
Where the head is held high,
And the mind is without the fear of competition,
Into that country of charlatans,
My Father, I may be Happily born again and again!
- British Ravindra Nath Tagore.
P.S. : Charlatan analogue = Indian Munshiji
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National Anthem:
Where the head is held high,
And the mind is without the fear of competition,
Into that country of charlatans,
My Father, I may be Happily born again and again!
- British Ravindra Nath Tagore.
P.S. : Charlatan analogue = Indian Munshiji
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188 goes with you have never called anyone eurotrash.
your a lier, as as well as misinformed idiot.
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Whenever I see aparticularly long posting, with very few paragraph breaks, chances are is it Marcus.
Sometimes I read a few lines just to check that it is the usual ranting.
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threnodio (#178) should lighten up. I don't find very many US posters in this thread being "judgmental" about British drinking habits. Seems to be more of that from the natives. I'm writing from the US, have never been to the UK, and would not presume to judge something I have never observed.
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205. At 6:28pm on 02 Aug 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
When I first became familiar with England, what surprised me most was how catty the men were. I had always thought of this as a female trait.
Reading the postings, and how catty they can be, I assume that many of the writers are English men. Don't misunderstand -- I enjoy you guys.
that would be in part because in the US one is made to feel uncomfortable speaking to women as a man, there tend to be this moment when some guy comes over "to let you know" that you are talking to HIS girl friend.
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#211 - Gary_A_Hill
Gary
I am so lightened up most times it's not funny.
Perhaps I had a lucid moment between bottles. Hey ho!
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Regarding seriousness. Justin, to be honest, I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Do you and Andrew Keen think that 'sober seriousness is more prevolent in the US than the UK? Or the other way around. How do you define "seriousness?" Is '"seriousness" slang for '"patriotic?" Because if it is, then in my opinion Americans are far too "serious!" And we could learn some 'serious lessons from the British on how to be less so!! I mean of course everyone need a sence of belonging and pride, but there is belonging and pride, and then there is bostfulness and braging!! And I think far too many Americans are far too bostful about our nation, and that, in turn, gives this nation one of its worst stereo types!! If "seriousness" is defined as worrying too much about our lives and what others think of us, then can you blame us? We have far more negative stereo types to fight off than the British, so we have much more to worry about in that regard alone!! You should consider yourselves extremely lucky!! If "seriousness" reffers to Americans being less humerous, then I'm afraid I disagree with you. Just watch 'Comity Central!!
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181. At 12:02pm on 02 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:
#179 - timsingapore
No the problem is that you have 60 million people living in an area roughly the size of Oregon. Of course this is going to focus any apparent problems because they crop up frequently over very small distances. Of course it is delusional to pretend there is no problem. It is absurd to suggest it is nationwide demographically or geographically. It is also interesting to see how quickly these criticisms drop away when some of those 'young thugs' put on combat fatigues and turn up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
People in america want the Uk to realise what a large place america is.
well this letter proves the point the other way.
if you squeezed the same number in to one place in the US they would have just as rough streets and just as many problems.
they are fortunate to be so far from each other(not so lucky for the local wild life though).
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peace Ed.
keep living the loving life.
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120. At 6:43pm on 01 Aug 2008, richnoodle wrote:
The reason their are no drunks on the streets of my town in Texas, is that all the drunks are in their cars driving home. Straight out of a club and into their cars!What's better, a few brawls and puking on the streets or killing someone whilst drunk driving
sweet at least some one gets out past the beltway and bloggisphere.
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126. At 7:28pm on 01 Aug 2008, hardmanb wrote:
I'm an American and an unashamed Anglophile, and visit the UK when possible.
On my last trip...I closed pubs for 13 straight nights (and sometimes joined the Aussies drinking on the steps)...and other trips, I have always been treated well by Brits. Sometimes unresponsive, or a little surly...but never unfriendly, or offensively. Probably has something to do with my inoffensive and nonconfrontational behavior.
What shocks me about the UK, is the almost utter lack of "identity" and pride-in-identity of Brits. They seem defensive and apologetic about being British.
I find this extremely puzzling, as of all countries and cultures, the UK has one of the proudest histories and greatest contributions to civilization in the history of the world.
Why is there so little pride in being British?
We are taught not to boast :)
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145. At 01:35am on 02 Aug 2008, JeanetteIsabella wrote:
you should visit some loggers at the bar.
they are nice people often, but well drunk and only nice if you do not say things that offend them.
to all the others ,did you see your elections primaries
hick ery and Boozery at the podium all drunk and rude.
drinking games between mc shame and the which of the white house.
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amazing thing about drink.
it has created some of the best art in the world.
that or drugs.
so why not let those that want to do and if you don't like it. don't.
oh but as other posters have said.
we are not really free.
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218, Jack.
Not too long ago England was the greatest power on earth. It is easy to be confident on the way up, but on the way down your ego suffers.
Have you ever known someone who was born to wealth and lost his money, or someone who was admired for his achievements and subsequently discredited?
There is no mystery here, Jack.
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jf
"amazing thing about drink.
it has created some of the best art in the world.
that or drugs."
They haven't helpe you jf. If you ever sobered up, you might realize that twisted pile of metal in your yard isn't art at all, it's just scrap suitable for melting down to be made into something useful by someone who knows what they are doing.
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(I assume that you wanted some kind of response to your pathetic deliberate misspelling of my user name - so you have one)
He is rather bad at this but is picking up since the Idea was shown to him.
slowly but still he tries.
163 marbles I agree it is delicious, and were it not for the slight taste of the booze would just be a nice milk shake.
A vergin daquari is tasty too.
all very girlei but still tasty ,
to those not really looking for getting drunk.
under the pretence of being cultured.
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221what?
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all my wher are and were you from?again
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allmymarbles #221
Britain became the greatest power on earth by stealing everything they gained. They created little of their own wealth never having had much value for enterprise. Their ships and guns were what got them an empire. Now left to their own resources, they can bemoan that "The World Turned Upside Down." That's the song their musicians played when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown and the beginning of the end for them began. It took 200 years but eventually, the unwillingness of the world to be subjected to their rule took its toll and the squandering of what they had stolen on countless wars has left them where they are today. Now the degenerated culture they have come to accept as normal will drag them and their Continental neighbors down even lower.
The beauty of the whole thing is to sit back, marvel at it, to just watch as a spectator to an automobile crash. The participants don't seem to understand what is happening to them and lash out at the rest of the world for consequence of their own folly. What a lot of useless noise they make. How nice to be at a safe distance.
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. And then again she might not be. In the US, that woman would have been taken off the plane in handcuffs by the FBI and incarcerated for a long time. She would probably have also been blacklisted from ever flying again.
no she would have been given a box cutter and told to go to the flight deck.
hay pompous twit.
no hijacking EVER started in the UK.
Never.
No box cutters on planes from the UK>
NONE.
9/11 happened because you idiots wanted your way. and you got it.
Hows that for off topic.
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marbles
catty because we are less sexist in our outlook
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jf #227
Have your forgotten about the shoe bomber?
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#229
That would be the one who was arrested before he blew anything up, would it?
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#195Edinglehart
Loved the link in your post. It had slipped my mind that her family made their money in beer sales!
My dad often said that "no matter how hard the times get, if you know how to make soap and whiskey you will survive!"
Thanks
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call that a bomb ,,no really dumbo. he had to conceal that or did you think the shoe had the words "bomb " on them
Oh and he did not manage to hijack anything.
so what are you saying dumbo
knives and guns were never allowed on planes.
the 9/11 bombers could walk on with those knives.
legally
Though the stewardess will give you a stake knife in first class, they give you glasses and bottles of wine,
a garrot for headphones, and a flame thrower at duty free.
so just hope the terrorist cannot afford first class.
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222. At 7:30pm on 02 Aug 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
jf
"amazing thing about drink.
it has created some of the best art in the world.
that or drugs."
They haven't helpe you jf. If you ever sobered up, you might realize that twisted pile of metal in your yard isn't art at all, it's just scrap suitable for melting down to be made into something useful by someone who knows what they are doing.
thank you. from you it means nothing.
but the sale of 20 frogs I just did did mean something. as well as being asked to speak at local eco building guild meeting.
this is a pathetic attempt.
also to see what he refers to all you others. visit nw-arts.com.
then go to galleries and jacksforge.
or try jacksforge.etsy.com
and
as for knowing how to do things.
well it would not be you then mark.
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oh and changing light bulbs for a living is hardly a career to be proud of.
but I am glad you have noted that it is not art.
I personally think the only art is in the art of Bull faeces.
the rest is craftmanship.
and the subject is only of interest to the maker and those that also find it pleasing.
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aquagirl. i think your dad was a smart man.
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Now there is a revolting image, 20 hammered out wrought iron frogs. Do they sit on wrought iron lilly pads too? :-) Ever thought of a little tape or CD player making an occasional bddddppp noise coming out of them. Now that it's politically incorrect to put a little statue of a black jockey holding a lantern on your front lawn, are wrought iron frogs the best we can do? Is it as bad as flamingos?
Thanks to the British shoe bomber, every passenger who will board a plane on a commercial flight in the United States, maybe hundreds of thousands a day has to remove their shoes, put them in a box, and have them X-rayed when they go through security. I guess that's payback for the Boston Tea Party.
An eco guild building meeting. Now there is something to contemplate. A bunch of old geezers with nothing by time on their hands sitting around listening to a guy who hammers out wrought iron frogs. Makes you appreciate the 487th rerun of I Love Lucy baking that bread that knocks her across the room. At least if you get bored watching her, you can fall asleep in your own bed.
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Hey MA2,
You say that you are not spoofing but your words fall on deaf ears. Oldnat was right about you, and here is a classic example :
"BTW, I have never clicked on the complain icon even once, not even in the case of the most offensive postings I've seen. Why would I want to risk the disappearance of the embarrassing evidence of what some people who post here reveal about themselves?"
Top notch. Great use of intentional, unintentional irony. The embarrassing bigot is blind to himself, yet accurately describes himself in the way he describes others. Keep it coming.
ps There is also great irony in the way your character has obvious intelligence and worldly knowledge but fails to obtain any benefits from it (such as subtlety of judgement or an awareness of the complexity of life). He cannot help but see the world in black and white. Skillfully done.
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Jacksforge
I visited your gallery site. Love the dragonfly!
Illigitimus non carbarondum: Don't let certain people try to grind you down!
Have fun!
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excuse us fellow bloggers it seems M erronoius wants to play.
all that education and you ended up changing light bulbs for a career.
Lucky they did not have fused plugs in the states that might have meant another collage course for you to have to go on.
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sweete from the dessert.
lol like the grinding joke.
don't worry. that will not happen.
I don't even own a grinder.
I'm slow at putting stuff on the site .
I make but selling is not much fun for me.
You will notice that the offending blogger has been spared during the week, I have decided to limit the time I spend insulting those not worthy of it, but for giggles today I had to jump in for a while.
Other than that I am too busy. Making scrap.
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How about a debate (no moderators) between JackForge and MarcusAureliusII?
Ho hold barred. Kicking and biting allowed (no referees).
The winner gets to run for president.
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oh and M erronious.
the little black boy holding stuff statue is not unPC.
it is offensive.
but as a racist you would not see that.
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#241Allmymarbles
Love it!
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marbles . OK
but only if I can kick in the nads.
and the president bit I'll give to Obama.
I think he would make a better one than me.
I would just issue an order to round up the oldies and send them to concentration camps full of aipac lobbyists .
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We have really strayed from the original subject but that is one thing I enjoy about this blog. It must be close to 'Happy Hour' somewhere in the world.
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You will need a big stadium Jack. Lots of eurotrash want to come over for this match!
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"We are taught not to boast "
jacksforge:
Really? That is a lesson recently learned. There was no shortage of boasting in Britain for centuries, up until about 1914.
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"As an unrepentant Englishman, albeit an ex-pat, I would like to apologise unreservedly to the American people for any offence occasioned by the policeman who shook Mr.Obama's hand. It was an unforgivable breach of protocol and the fact that he was drunk out of his tiny head at the time is no excuse."
threnodio:
Which one was drunk?
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243,244,246.
We can't have a debate until Marcus is heard from. Maybe he is having trouble thinking up one of his out-of-body responses. (I hesitate to say "out-of'mind.")
The debate should be held somewhere in the mid-Atlantic. Unfortunately there are no islands in the mid-Atlantic. We could use a balloon (hot air, of course), but that doesn't leave much room for fans.
Jack, I had to look up "nads," although I suspected what it meant. Of course it's OK. No holds barred, remember?
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#246Threnodio
Your sense of humor is wonderful! I now have my third required laugh for the day.
I can also understand some of your frustration about how a simple comment regarding alcohol consumption could send posters off into what has been written here.
Right now I think US politics have become somewhat boring. No real blood is being shed. So, let's pit some rival posters together. We can all hold their hats/coats while they fight it out.
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#249 - allmymarbles
Yes there are. Gran Canaria is just perfect. Spanish territory. Bullfighting rules apply. Loser gets to be the BBQ. You can be Carmen.
248 - TimothyR444
The Brit, naturally. Permanently drunk 24/7, all 60 million of us. Didn't you know?
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#251Threnodio
That could be some really tough meat!
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I'm ready just make an appointment.
with my pet.
seriously we would have to pick a venue without quarentine,so grand canaria would be good.
there must be a perfect volcanic stadium there.
247 . you really do not understand british culture do you?
seriously. there may be little or nothing to be proud and boastful of, but there are some rather huge differences in upbringing, between the states and UK.
including treatment of animals.
sportsmanship.
cheering for the other side etc.
most of which has been forgotten by many brits.
and self depreciation as a way of making ones company feel more comfortable.
it works.
those americans that arrive abroad and start saying how crap it is are generally treated well.
.
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Thanks Aqua. Now if you will excuse me, it's late in central Europe and it's Grand Prix day tomorrow. Goodnight.
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Sorry, I am really, mostly, a peaceful person. Justin, I think it is time for another topic to be introduced.
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Marcus, Wherefore art thou?
You are never silent. Are you overwhelmed with our enthusiasm? Are you afraid you will lose?
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how about surtsey?
then when we want to barb que(or as it used to be called , cook) our meat we will not have to go far or start an enviromentally unfriendly fire. which would be the last thing after all that travelling to get there.
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Sorry to disappoint you lostallmymarbles. I was out at Home Depot and grocery shopping. Great values at the local Shoprite store. Didn't buy any more Angus rib steaks or center cut pork chops though. Sale's over. Besides, my freezers can't hold any more. Three racks of baby backs baking low and slow in the oven all day, just the way I like them. That's the way to cook pork. BTW, French cheeses still way too high. Societe' Roquefort still $19 a pound, other various french blues around $13 to $15 a pound. Didn't check out Stilton though. Rib Eye roast beef was on sale $2.79 a pound. Sorry Europe, cut your prices in half...and then some and maybe I'll give you a second look.
JF, I'm a Project Director at an engineering consulting firm that specializes in high technology facilities. If you think that is the same as being a light bulb changer, mabye that's because in the UK where you come from...it is.
Mr. Potatohead (I had that toy when I was about 5 years old), you say my words fall on deaf ears? How ironic, you responded to them. How do you explain that?
Me debate jacksforge? A battle of wits between me and the mentally unarmed? Doesn't seem quite fair. Tell you what jf, I'll give you a handicap. I'll only type wiith one hand :-)
Threnodious;
"The Brit, naturally. Permanently drunk 24/7, all 60 million of us. Didn't you know?"
Based on a lifetime of experience....that would have been my guess. Right again.
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Dear Mrs Marbles.
Thanks, but no holds barred leaves a crafty escape clause so I would have to clarify this.
though MA might enjoy the holding of his nads I have no intention of doing that. but I will strike his nads happily, so is a strike considered a hold or not.
I would say not, so excuse me for seeking clarification.
I eagerly await you reply
your faithfully Jacksforge
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Since we are being serious again, you are almost right Jack. There is plenty to be proud of but nothing to boast about. Some see it as self-deprecating, others stand-offish but it kinda works for me. And now I mean it. Good night.
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threnodio
goodnight
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Well, one thing i never though one could accuse MAII of is plagiarism.
But the first para of his post 258 is verbatim a previous post of his own several weeks ago. Pity he can't quote the real world.
Nowt like being narcissistic in a deluded world ;)
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double the fertilising power with new concentrated MA.
all the Bull and now with added chicken crap.
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259, Jack. 158
Can you believe it? We offer Marcus an intellectual challenge (albeit with a little violence thrown in) and he responds with a cooking lesson and his curriculum vitae. I expected an inept reply, but this was more than I could have hoped for.
I am tempted to invent my own CV, but will leave that pleasure for a future posting.
P.S. I do like your interpretation of "no holds barred." Crafty, indeed.
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MA2 @258
"...you say my words fall on deaf ears? How ironic, you responded to them. How do you explain that?"
You have obviously got a lot of fan mail to respond to on this blog, so I perfectly understand that you didn't read my post properly. I said that your claims of not being a spoofer fell on deaf ears. In other words, I don't believe you are not one. My response to your humble (but totally in character) denials contained no irony. I was not claiming to be deaf to your words in general.
Thanks for the chance to clear that up.
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oh and also marbles my agent will be in touch about the fee's.
that will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS
no make that sterling,
no better still a neutral currency Euro's
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marbles many that know me say I should have become a lawyer,
unfortunately for my pocket I became a smith.
but still I have the joy of doing a job I enjoy.
That is creative and stimulating .
Crafty indeed.
I will meet for a non violent version, but for that I definately want to get paid.
Have a good weekend.
Kecsmer
his posts are all cut and pasted form his earlier posts.
that is one of the reasons I joined in today.
bored of his anti euro rants, tried to stick him down to just offending me(;)).
but he is not on form today.(i know , when is he ever on form.)
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#267Jack
I love my job..I'm one of the few who really enjoys their work. Glad to hear you do too... makes life worth living, and enjoy the rants of others with a smile ;)
He wont offend directly, not normally his style, since he meanders some much he twists his own tongue into a knot...
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jf #267
you said;
"marbles many that know me say I should have become a lawyer"
Whew, I'm glad you didn't say English teacher :-)
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I am glad marbles that you got more than you hoped for, in a nice way , i hope.
i would like to see your CV.
Now the offer about using one hand to type.
I am sure he is good at this but I am also sure the moderators would not let me explain to all how he got so good at it.
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268 good on ya, what job is that If I have to look for a career change it's always nice to know what jobs are enjoyable.
did you check out the pictures of trash in my yard?
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I would never teach english to any one, but neither should you erronious.
the english language is not something you comprehend, just speak, like you learnt it by rote.
your comments are full of what others consider inaccurate . what I call delusional.
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270, Jack.
The real one, or a made-up one?
But, just maybe, you may intuitively know my profession.
Want to guess!
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kecsmar#268
"#267Jack
I love my job..I'm one of the few who really enjoys their work. Glad to hear you do too... "
Kecsmar, what jf didn't know was that when they told him that one day when he grew up he'd have to bang out a living for himself, they didn't mean for him to take it literally.
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You are correct. Alcohol does not make one a rude lout. Alcohol releases social inhibitions from one part of the brain allowing an individual's true character to emerge. It takes us off our guard. Brits are louts when they are drunk because that is their basic nature which is a consequence of the culture they were brought up in. It allows the true man or woman to emerge for all of us to see. BTW, social events related to employment where alcohol is served, especially away from the office such as the annual Christmas party are especially dangerous. Many careers have been ruined at them. Sexual inhibitions are released often resulting in unwanted pregnancies. And crimes of violence are committed.
great analysis. not.
"Alcohol releases social inhibitions from one part of the brain allowing an individual's true character to emerge"
not quite . alcohol being a small water molecule away from ether has the same effects.from disorientation and a lack of inhibitions as seen externally to the eventual death if over consumed
(something no pot head has managed yet)
it is the sedative effect that makes people loose their inhibitions.but it does not allow the true person out.
the normally reserved person who gets all lively and bubbly is not becoming them selves, they are reserved.
they are sending confused messages, confused because the aenesthetic they are consuming is not allowing their brain to function "properly".
some one in a bar might mean" are you looking letcherously at my wife, because I would rather you didn't.
it comes out as What you looking at you want to get a thumpin"
you should go to AA meetings.
I suspect a lot of what you write is written under the influence of booze(though you probably never think so)
admit your addiction. seek treatment,if not learn more about alcohol and it's effects.
the drunk is not the true person.
that is the sober person.
that is also not the sober person clucking for a drink.
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lostallmymarbles
Is it an old profession? A very old profession?
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marbles
the made up one of course. we are in virtually land after all.
for real how about a teacher.
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mark is still practicing typing with one hand.
eewwwwww.
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Jack. I hope I did not elecit those comments.
No, I am not a teacher. I would find that boring.
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So what is it about my postings you like most jf, that when I talk about how awful things are in the UK, it makes you glad not to be back there? What if I told you I have found a way for you to bring your pet into the UK without having to wait at all for it to be quarantined? What new excuse would you make up then for not going back?
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jf, when I type with one hand, my other hand is usually holding a sandwich, a piece of fruit, or an ice cream popsicle. When you type with one hand, what do you hold in yours?
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marbles just read that post about the hand shake and classism in the states.
On that i think it may be even.
though the UK is a little less degree obsessed.
Having come here with a dislike of the class system in the UK i suspect it is little different here.
Class systems here seem Anti american.
"The Society for Creative Anachronism"
"the renaissance fairs"
most social clubs. the neighbourhood association. all are little class systems.
ever since getting rid of the King america has been trying to reinvent the class system.
why I don't know.
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MA you suggest both marble and I bang out a proffesion. well
I take no offence at that . you should apologise to marbles.
or is your other hand too busy
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Jack,
Psychiatrist specializingi n deranged bloggers.
Not.
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lostallmymarbles
If you were back in Iran, you'd be wearing a veil or a burkah spending your days keeping house and tending to your husband's every whim. And if you didn't satisfy him...he'd beat you until you did.
What's worse, Iran, China, or the UK? Hard to say. I'll bet at least in Iran and China there aren't drunks vomiting all over the public streets.
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marbles sorry to insult you, by suggesting you be a teacher.(though I suspect the type of education system could be the problem in relation to boredom.)
How about Doctor.
wow this is going to be like 20 questions I should ask a question.
Is it a job where you deal with reality?
285 sounds like he is talking about his "wife".
MErronious send me the money,
like I say about a million will do.
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from you I would take worthless US dollars.
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lostallmymarbles
"Jack...No, I am not a teacher. I would find that boring."
Based on your comments, so would your students.
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265, Marcus
I what I enjoy about your posts is their sense of unreality. I think you should stick to cooking and shopping. That seems to be your metier.
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286, Jack.
Hint. Hint. Think of something adventurous.
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jf
"How about a doctor."
Fine, I'll arrange for Bellevue to send one to your house immediately. What size straightjacket do you wear?
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As for teaching ability I think marbles would be fine. Though we disagree at times she seems to be able to read, comprehend and make her point.
Erronious's students may be awake, but only until they can figure out how to get a gun into the class room.
they would also fail as did the emperor of wrong himself.
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jf
"from you I would take worthless US dollars."
I think you'd take whatever you could get from anyone who would pay you. After all, what can you reasonably expect for hammered out metal frog lawn ornaments?
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please say you are a doctor trained in France marbles,, (even if it is not true) please.
then we can hear from the wanna be but got kicked out erronious on how crap the french system is.
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i wanna hear the french has no health care story from the funny man with the hand under the table
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jf
"MA you suggest both marble and I bang out a proffesion. well
I take no offence at that . you should apologise to marbles.
or is your other hand too busy"
jf, I don't know what you expect me to do to miss marbles with my "other hand" but you have a sick dirty little mind.
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about 50 dollars but I have sold them for up to $120 dollars each . not bad really.
you are a sad person really.
as to what your other hand is up to. I suggest we not go there with moderators around, but merchant banker springs to my mind.
I never said you were doing anything to marbles .
except playing with your own.
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geologist
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journalist
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your in the SAS
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lostallmymarbles
"286, Jack.
Hint. Hint. Think of something adventurous."
You're a tree surgeon specializing in sequoia redwoods?
You're a trash collector and your weekly route covers the peak of Mount Everest?
You're an underwater snake charmer who trains anacondas?
You flight test parachutes to be certain they'll open?
You're taking a live census of penguins in Antarctica?
You're a BBC correspondent headed for Gaza?
I still get to have 14 more guesses.
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Jackforge...i think you finally hit a nerve, 296!!
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kecs
it's not too hard, opps well maybe it is.
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jf
"about 50 dollars"
Well I AM surprised. I didn't know scrap metal sold for that much these days.
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Jack.
Clever fellow! One of your guesses was correct. Plus there are extras attached.
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lostallmymarbles
I was going to say geologist. As soon as I saw your first few posts, I said to myself, self there's a woman whose got rocks in her head.
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marble thanks,
MA about 50 but as I say up to 120.
the secret is in how long they take. and that is not even for sale.
you will notice the prices I charge, that is because I am underselling myself.
as for scrap. the price is over 300 a short tonne.
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marbles , i knew you were in the SAS
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I had only been in the country a few minutes when I noticed a man with a gigantic growth bulging out of his cheek. The swelling was enormous, it was so bulbous it practically had its own heartbeat.
Qat chewing is a national pastime for the people of Yemen
Now I have been brought up not to stare but, feeling slightly guilty, I kept sneaking glances at this unfortunate fellow.
What an awful disease, I thought to myself and how nice that other people are not staring at him, unlike me.
I wondered whether the growth might be a tumour, or perhaps some sort of thyroid problem.
I did not want to seem rude but I quietly asked my guide, Ahmed, if perhaps this man was ill.
Ahmed, in his nonchalant manner, turned to look at the man, and gave a small laugh that suggested I was very stupid.
"Ha! That's qat," he said.
bbc article on qat.
is this what is up with mc cains cheeks
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whats that about extras?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
310, Jack.
In the first place, I did not say which quess was correct. As to extras, when you are a person with many interests, your profession grows tentacles to embrace them.
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Goodnight to the Americans and goodmorning to the Brits.
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America is permanently drunk on 'gas', 'terror' and its own spiritual vacuity. Don't worry, Justin, we're getting there here in Britain, just a little slower.
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Having lived in both the US and Britain plus travelled through 30+ countries I can definitely say the amount of alcohol consumed has nothing to do with the problems. The issue is how people act when they consume alcohol. It certainly appears to me that acting like an animal is quite alright in british culture. I have seen this in other countries wiht the current example being the british gal living in Dubai who thought it ok to have a "shag" on the beach. She and her partner in crime were warned once and when caught a second time by the same police officer proceeded to hurl abuse at the officer.
Their excuse: They had been drinking all day.
Other parts of Europe consume more alcohol per capita but dont act nearly as beligerant when in public. Why is that?
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317 - Tyler1976
I am getting very tired of arguing the case that you cannot tar an entire nation with the same brush. It is not alright for people to act like animals in British culture and they know it. That is exactly why they do it. Rebels without a cause.
Those of us who live elsewhere in Europe would agree, however, about the manifestations of public drunkenness. It is all about what is drunk and why. We have good booze on mainland Europe - naturally fermented beers, fine wines and so on so we have no need for alcopops and other outlandish mixtures. It means we drink for pleasure, not to get drunk. Plus there is a culture of intolerance towards public drunkenness. I have said it before and for the last time, I will say it again. This is not about substance abuse, it is cultural. The problem is thuggery, not alcoholism. After all, a thug is a thug regardless of whether or not he is drunk.
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threnodious
"After all, a thug is a thug regardless of whether or not he is drunk."
How do you suppose Britain acquired an empire upon which the sun never set? Alcohol merely blocks the part of the brain which controls inhibitions. It reveals the drinker's true colors. Yes it is a cultural thing. Britain always was a piratical nation. Only now nobody will put up with it and they don't have to. Britain is far too weak to impose its will on anyone. That's what it hopes the US will do for it. That's one reason why it is America's ally.
BTW, don't imagine for one minute that the rest of Europe is a bunch of boyscouts. For example, just look at the skinheads in Germany, Russia, and Serbia. They also reflect a national character whether sober or drunk.
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lostallmymarbles
Whatever it is you perpetrate on society, coyness doesn't enhance you image. It just makes you look immature.
jf, you say that alcohol and drugs enhances creativity. So my question to you is, which or in what combination and how much enables you to bang out your best metal frogs?
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318- Threnodio
I agree not the whole of britain is a bunch of drunken animals etc
However there is a culture that prevails in britain where idiodic behaviour is accepted or at least ignored.
Other countries in europe have there share of is regarding drinking as does the US, Canada, Australia etc.
However the prevailing attitued in britain is one of acceptance. "just being a lad" type of attitude towards acting like an animal.
As for the types of drinks being drunk I disagree. Germany has many types of cheap appealing drink people drink jsut to get wasted. Yet I have not witnessed the level of behaviour there as I have in britain.
I am not against people getting drunk or even wasted. I am not against people getting boisterious. I am however against people getting drunk and violent, arrogant, aggressive, etc etc etc.
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Perhaps the real distinction is between physical thuggery and intellectual thuggery. Both defy logic but the latter does not require guts.
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The French exhibit their natural cultural character when they are drunk, laziness. Small wonder that a book written several years ago, "Bonjour Paresse" Hello laziness was a best seller there. It was a prescription for how to climb the ladder in corporate structures or government without ever having to do a lick of work in your entire life. The irony is, a lot of French people work very hard...when they are sober.
When Americans get drunk....they become very friendly. That's when they make lots of mistakes....like signing dumb treaties with other countries giving away the store...and voting to approve them in Congress.
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323 - MarcusAureliusII
'When Americans get drunk....they become very friendly. That's when they make lots of mistakes....like signing dumb treaties with other countries giving away the store...and voting to approve them in Congress'
Ah, so all we basically have to do is get the American political establishment round a table, fill them full of Jim Beam and give them a pen and they will sign anything. Good tip, MA2.
And you think we drink too much?
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It just occurred to me!
Does McCain drink? That would explain a lot, especially the inconsistency....
Most of my mother's contemporaries when she was that age were rarely in company without a drink - not that they were ever sozzled, just always with a drink to hand...
Of course, the same was said of Jefferson and a number of his contemporaries...and as to
Great Uncle George, well....
;-)
ed
Slainte!
ed
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So far, there seems to be little followup exploring the logical questions that this topic should raise. Exactly how widespread is this phenomenon of British alcoholism, is it growing, what are its implicatons for the future of British society, and what if anything can be done about it? It seems to me that if it's as serious as some here paint it, it should alarm all of those in the British government of any party.
The fact that it doesn't seem to perhaps again reflect the difference in the way Brits and Americans view alcoholism. In Britain it is taken to be a lifestyle choice, in America a mental illness which may be controlled with great difficulty but cannot be cured yet. Clearly Americans regard it very seriously while Brits and other Europeans don't. They also didn't regard Hitler seriously and look at what the consequences of that mistake were. Same with Soviet Communism. Both times they had to rely on the US to bail them out. But who will bail out the UK if there is a complete societal breakdown due to widespread alcoholism? Not the US. Even if it wanted to.
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All I asked was "Does McCain drink?" It would explain a lot.
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Oh, and I did mention that my mum and her contemporaries were rarely in company without a drink in hand, and that Jefferson was reputed to like a drop, and that my Great Uncle George was a farmer as well as a military man...
Och well, the Mods are as Gods
xx
ed
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The fact that it doesn't seem to perhaps again reflect the difference in the way Brits and Americans view alcoholism. In Britain it is taken to be a lifestyle choice, in America a mental illness which may be controlled with great difficulty but cannot be cured yet.
What is the evidence for this extraordinary assertion? This poster is evidently taking the ideas of Erewhon by Samuel Butler seriously. But Erewhon was meant as a satire.
You crash a car in the US, are found drunk and then try to claim you are in fact "mentally ill" most courts wont be sending you to a psychiatrist's office.
"While Brits and other Europeans don't. "
Try drinking to excess in Sweden and see what happens. Indeed be next to a person who is excessively drinking in Scandanavia and see what happens
"They also didn't regard Hitler seriously and look at what the consequences of that mistake were. Same with Soviet Communism."
Took them more seriously then any other country, when did the US go to war in WWII again?
Both times they had to rely on the US to bail them out. "
Both times the US owes its survival to the timely warnings and courage of Europe. Certainly its own diplomats etc let the republic down badly - partly because For. Affairs in the US are so political and ideological
The last three US Secs of State have been admitted failures and the the position is plainly not taken seriously.
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It seems it is considered inappropriate to enquire as to whether a candidate's inconsistency might be connected to whether or not said candidate indulges in an occasional refreshment.....
;-(#
ed
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#326 - MarcusAureliusII
Interesting questions but with complex answers. The following is informed opinion born mainly of experience but I stress that I am in no way qualified professionally and not an expert.
Firstly, it is in my view necessary to distinguish between alcoholism and heavy drinking. The best definition I have heard of an alcoholic was from a clinical psychologist acquaintance who defined an alcoholic as a person who could not function without alcohol, his view being that it was not the quantity or the frequency of use but the dependency which was the major factor. This view coincides neatly with the genetic predisposition theory which is basically that some people are genetically predisposed to have addictive personalities and can become addicted to pretty much anything. It is also very convenient if you wish to explain various phenomena simultaneously. For example, you could argue that a higher proportion of people in northern Europe are predisposed to become addicted and it is therefore only natural that there is a higher incidence of alcohol abuse in say the UK than Italy. Simultaneously you could argue that such predisposition means that a significant level of dependency within a society tends to effect the behaviour of the society as a whole. Personally, I find this definition too convenient because it leaves to much room for cop out and it fails to address other relevant questions.
It does not, for example, address why hardened drinkers have such widely differing behaviour patterns. Why does one sit and giggle, another become violent and abusive and another simply fall asleep? The behaviourists will naturally gravitate to the theory that alcohol is a depressant which supresses inhibitions and allows the true personality to emerge. There is strength in this but does this not point also in an entirely different direction? If an alcoholic is someone who cannot function without alcohol, one has to assume that many do function quite well when they have their drug. Abherent behaviour is dysfunctional. The logical conclusion is that those people who kick up a storm when they have had too much to drink are not alcoholics at all. They are drunks pure and simple.
If I am right, you can now identify two separate problems. The problem of alcoholism which is one which remains largely hidden because there are pleanty of addicts who apparently function normally. These people do not fight, do not commit acts of vandalism and do not throw up in the streets. What they do is make judgement calls on a day to day basis with their judgemental capacities severely compromised. It is also likely that they commit private acts of violence behind closed doors. Domestic violence is a real problem in the UK but it is largely unrelated to the street based hooliganism on which this debate is mainly focused . . .
I have more to say about this if you are interested but if not, I should stop now before I bore everyone to death
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Ed uglyheart
You're so dependably inane. Some things never change.
BTW, where's your friend jf? Still sleeping it off in Oregon? Or maybe he got up early to bang out some more metal frogs. And we haven't heard from David_Cunard in such a long while? Maybe he's on vacation...whooping it up in Spain along with countless other Brits who are presumably making the usualy nuissance of themselves there. kescmar seems strangely quiet lately? Biding his time no doubt. We need a roundup of all the usual suspects. This is getting very boring. Taking you on one or two at a time is no challenge for me at all. And I almost forgot our coy whatever she is, the presumed Iranian journalist who lives where? Teherangeles? With "extras."
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Simon21
Put down the comic books, go to the library, and start reading real books written by historians. Learn the facts, then come back. It's a waste of my time responding to your fantasies.
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Darkest Orifice,
It's around 7 AM on Sunday in Oregon, so I reckon you may be right about sleeping, but if you had any nouse at all, you'd know there's little need to 'sleep off' a good smoke.Complain about this comment
Threnodio,
Not boring at all. A good analysis, and I'd love to hear the "more" you may have to say. My brother is in the "recovering addict" category, while I seem to have escaped any addiction, despite having sometimes laid myself wide open to the risks...I have been to meetings, but never had to stand up.
Slainte!
ed
A rarely drink at all these days, or smoke, for that matter, but neither is off the menu entirely.
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334. At 3:30pm on 03 Aug 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Darkest Orifice,
"BTW, where's your friend jf? Still sleeping it off in Oregon? Or maybe he got up early to bang out some more metal frogs."
It's around 7 AM on Sunday in Oregon, so I reckon you may be right about sleeping, but if you had any nouse at all, you'd know there's little need to 'sleep off' a good smoke.
lol Ed there is somethig else one can be up to on a sunday morning. and I see from MA early typing he was getting a less satisfying version.
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wow he gets up early that way he can post before he gets off for the day.
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The behaviourists will naturally gravitate to the theory that alcohol is a depressant which supresses inhibitions and allows the true personality to emerge.
331. At 3:08pm on 03 Aug 2008, threnodio wrote:
#326 - MarcusAureliusII
again I refer you to the above post where you will read that it is the sleepyness caused by the sedative effect of the booze.
it does not allow the true personality out, and many lively people become a lot less so when they sober up.
they are not depressed they are just not drunk.
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MarcusAureliusII said ...
"The widespread problem of alcoholism in Britain and in fact all over Europe is only one symptom of a much more deep seeded problem of European society in general. That is a realization on an individual level that they have no control over their lives. They are helpless and hopeless. The USSR was an alcoholic society for the same reason. The EUSSR is replacing the individual governments which put up a sham pretense of democracy with a central tyranny which doesn't. That alcoholism is not only widespread but that it is tolerated is symptomatic of an entirely disfunctional civilization in the throes of final collapse."
Oh come off it - most of the lager-can-waving louts in the centres of British towns on a Saturday night wouldn't know the difference between the EC and a dead fish. The problem of alcohol-fuelled drunkenness in Britain goes back decades: it is a profound cultural phenomenon that has simply become worse in recent years. I remember crossing from Ostend to Dover on a ferry back in the 1970s, as the Brits returning from a beer festival shouted and vomited their way across the English Channel. Among them were travelling some Dutch and Belgian families who obviously thought they were travelling to a very different kind of Britain, and sat there in a state of frozen terror, quite incredulous at the behaviour they saw. And many of the over-drinkers were middle-aged men ... and women.
What amazes me now is not the scale of the problem: anyone who visits Britain regularly can see that. What is surprising is the the British themselves have not brought themselves to acknowledge the scale of the problem until now - and even now I doubt the will of any politician or journalist really to address it.
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Anne Sexton, poet
The bantering insults of intellectuals on alcohol and drugs. Summary of last twenty or so post except:
threnodio, ms I'm soserious.
Marbles is a mans game in a womans body?
jacksforge is forgery of inuendo, not metal?
marcus 'for real is he' is your captor.
ed is a fisherman of life on earth.
Simon is still waxing on, wax off.
And what are ya'll doing with your free hand? Paris or Brittany, funny Euro names.
me, i'm back to the printed book. catch ya
L8tr0n
solomente'
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# 134
"Afterall when a people commonly lives in homes that are 1,000 Square Meters (yes Meters...that's about 3,000 SF for the metricphobic"
maybe I'm metricphobic but wouldn't 1,000 square meters be approx 10,750 square feet?
Anyhow. I'm English, lived in the US for 4 years, married to an American. Post #123 - "In contrast on my last trip back to the UK it was visibly noticeable that the nation is getting fatter, louder, less polite and dirtier. Litter is everywhere. I never see any here. And while a little cynicism is healthy, Britain now is so cynical it really depresses me."
spot on with my feelings about visiting home. There are relatively few places in the US I would live, and few Britain I would move back to, the difference being that I can afford to live in decent areas in the US.
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Simon21
"Put down the comic books, go to the library, and start reading real books written by historians. Learn the facts, then come back. It's a waste of my time responding to your fantasies."
Not exactly a constructive reply. Perhaps you could tell us what books you read. I would be particularly keen on those that set out the histories of WORLD WARS III and IV which have had such an influence on yor good self and which the rest of the world has never heard of.
Perhaps you could tell us where we might obtain some of the campaign medals from these er, conflicts. They would certainly be very valauble on account of their undoubted rarity.
You apparently claim to hold an executive position in some US company. Plainlyy ou cannot work in the export section. Perhaps the word executive is a bit of a fantasy?
Not that fantasies are evil things in themselves, but they are often a product of drunkeness, is one trespassing on personal afflictions here?
To the point
"But this seriousness gives individuals an inner strength - a dependability - that some Brits lack. "
Yes Justin and a sense of "seriousness" as defined by you is usually also the hallmark of the fanatic - the Marshall Appletons, David Koreshs and Jim Jones who so affict the US and cause such suffering, not to mention the spurned student who cannot accept any affront to his dignity, so murders his classmates, or the grim ex-soldier who blows up a government building.
It is this seriousness which seems to make a suprisingly large number of people in the US so full of hatred - nothing is worse then having to confront the fact that other people do not take you as seriously as you take yourself - look at the visceral nature of much of the discourse in the US.
It is the British capacity not to take themselves so seriously, to be frivolous in difficult situations and to extract humour when and wherever, that gives this country its unique character and amazing strength.
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341. At 4:42pm on 03 Aug 2008, DougTexan wrote:
"Angel of clean sheets, do you know bedbugs?
Once in a madhouse they came like specks of cinnamon
as I lay in a chloral cave of drugs,
as old as a dog, as quiet as a skeleton."
Anne Sexton, poet
But not on this evidence however.
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Who's playing the race card?
Watch
Salaam, etc.
ed
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back to this supposed release of the inner person theory on alcohol.
Which does not happen.
it seems to me that many are highly un educated about drugs.
most govourning bodies are to.
when the inhibition loss is due to being a little slower. a little closer to sleep. and it may manifest itself in many ways, some when they get sleepy(especially at 11 at night after a long weeks work) get a little beligerant.
some fall asleep, as they should, some just get giggley.
if the inner release theory is true is that person naturally asleep.
is their true self asleep.
if they giggle is that their "real self"
are they someone who will just giggle all day long.
I doubt it.
But if they get angry suddenly all say"that's his true self"
poppycock
they are feeling the effects of an anaesthetic .
they are not so able to conduct themselves as they wish.
Now if MA had passed that medical degree he might know this , but He did not.
One of the biggest problems a jolly achoholic has giving up is the worry that they will become less fun and so lose friends.
the definition of addiction is when the substence becomes a problem , not the use of it ,as threnodio mentions.
that leaves someone who uses any substance but gets on with life, is civil to the people around them(when they deserve it) holds dowm the job etc off the addicted list.
Some are addicted and drink ONE PINT A WEEK.
others drink 10 and are not addicts.
it is not purely down to the lack of it driving one mad as a problem. or the fact that some work all week and then get drunk.
it is when your life becomes unmanageable.
when it interfers with your life.
Now of course with prohibition all become addicts immediately.
they are facing the law and loss of liberty and in some countries life.
that makes them addicts , unless they stop.
pot laws are the only reason pot is a problem, for most users.
the ones you often read about have got drunk smoked pot had a line then another and a hit of crack.
and no wonder they go crazy (sometimes but really quite rarely)
it is hard to truly attribute this behaviour to the pot.
There are more than one harley street doctor on smack. of course they get the medical stuff.
they still function and in some cases get past their bad european training and still save peoples lives.
Prohibiton is the main problem with most drugs.
Alcohol is not even prohibited in the west but it is a problem.
You have all pointed out pukeing brits etc.
well if the americans that travelled are all nearly retired(which most are) then there is of course less likelyhood they will all be drunk till they puke.
it would interfer with their medications.
however if the youth could afford to travel more then maybe you would all see american youth puking in the streets of britain and paris.
I would also point out that it is unlikely you have seen the pot heads puking in the streets.
now it is true that is you get someone drunk stoned they may have an adverse reaction where they vomit the poisonous alcohol out of their bodies , but strangely you can start getting a stoned person drunk and they will probably not puke.
And strange whenever legalising drugs(like they can be lumped together) it is normally the raging alcoholics that are against it.
either them or the dominick .
I do respect the no substance for some people. that is their choice.
straight edge
as for drink driving being less in the states. there is no evidence to prove that.
like I said my observation is that i have never seen so many drinking drivers as here in the US.
no one I knew in the UK would drive after 2 beers.
Here I rarely meet people who will not drive if that is all they had.
and many more that will even if they have and will drink another just to see.
they all end up (if we are lucky) in a DUI conviction. but get real very few GO TO JAIL.
they are full.
with potheads who were sitting on thier sofa having a hit when the "pigs" come charging in through the front door.
open bottle laws just mean the drink bottle ends up in the ditch to the side of the road.
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simon 21 he does show his own alcoholic behaviour on these post.
and doug
please "jacksforge is forgery of inuendo,"
true but I also Am a forger of metal.
And to be a yank about it. I'm pretty good.
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timsingapore #340
I didn't say that there weren't alcoholics in British society long ago. But I have said that IMO Britain like the rest of Europe was NEVER a true democracy. Certainly non in the sense the US is. But it is becoming more apparant that the entire EU no longer even makes a pretense of it. It is a hopeless place to be for most people. BBC reported that 10% of the indigenous population of Britain has emigrated permanently already. Yet in France, things are evidently even worse. During his campaign, Sarkozy went to try to persuade 300,000 to 400,000 of France's best and brightest youth who found jobs in London to return to France. They are going to the very place Brits are escaping from. There are some people who want to do something with their lives in France just like everywhere. Only most have no opportunity there so they leave for what they hope will be greener pastures. Same with Brits. Many come to America and stay. Even guys who can do little more than bang out metal frogs.
Simon
I think Newt Gingrich recently wrote a book. He's the one I first heard talk of WWIV.
The campaign medal for WWIII was the demise of the USSR. Since the US taxpayer footed most of the bill for it over a period of around 40 years, I'm hardly surprised you hadn't heard of it. Had Europeans paid even a reasonable portion of their fair share considering that they were the object of the Soviet Union's desire to expand in Europe in their dreams of global conquest, Europe would be in even worse shape than it is today and you would not be able to afford any NHS or social safety net. Frankly, looking at the results and lack of recognition or gratitude, I think it was a very bad investment on America's part. As for WWIV, how may more bus and metro bombings will it take to convince you? Well however many that is, you'll probably live to see them....unless you are killed in one. Right now there's a lot of attacks going on in India and Turkey. But don't worrry, they haven't forgotten the future Eurabia either.
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jf
From Wikipedia
"Alcohol has also been linked with lowered inhibitions, though it is unclear to what degree this is chemical versus psychological as studies with placebos can often duplicate the social effects of alcohol at low to moderate doses. Some studies have suggested that intoxicated people have much greater control over their behavior than is generally recognized, though they have a reduced ability to correctly evaluate the consequences of their behavior."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body
Both ignorant and stubborn. Why not take out your frustrations in life on a helpless piece of metal. Good thing you left Britain. With the kooks in Parliament, one day there may be metal rights and punishment for abuse.
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#328Edinglehart
I DO enjoy your links! Great uncle George, cute!
This might amuse you. During the 60s my father thought to plant a similar crop. Although a law-abiding man, he was somewhat hazy on how some laws worked. He assumed that a farmer could grow anything, how people consumed the produce was their business. Alas, my brother talked him out of this!
Being an enterprising man, he thought the government might pay him Not to plant said crop so he wrote a letter To someone. It was considered a joke, so the matter was closed.
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and erronious I bang out more than frogs.
if any want to see a small sample of stuff then go to nw-arts.com
click on art galleries and go to jacksforge.
where you will see more than frogs.
as to the demise of the ussr.
Again Bill Hicks( rest his soul) said it well.
"who thought we were safe now it's all over , no nuclear war great...
Wrong now 20 countries have the bomb"
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wiki great sourse.
now go interview Max Glatt.
Some studies have suggested that intoxicated people have much greater control over their behavior than is generally recognized, though they have a reduced ability to correctly evaluate the consequences of their behavior
though they have a reduced ability to correctly evaluate the consequences of their behavior
reduced ability to correctly evaluate the consequences of their behavior
it does not say their true self comes out.
thankyou for proving my point
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"jf
From Wikipedia
"Alcohol has also been linked with lowered inhibitions, though it is unclear to what degree this is chemical versus psychological as studies with placebos can often duplicate the social effects of alcohol at low to moderate doses. Some studies have suggested that intoxicated people have much greater control over their behavior than is generally recognized, though they have a reduced ability to correctly evaluate the consequences of their behavior."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body"
Perhaps it is not wise to quote documents that do not support your own argument, as you have done here .
Indeed it is usually wise not to humiliate oneself by quoting wikipedia at all.
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ed good ol uncle george
now he was a smart guy.
aqua your father was a true gentleman from what you have written.
and now I am off to make somehing Ma could not make in a million years even with both hands
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oh marcus, just say this for later. because I know it will be true.
your wrong in you analysis.
don't try to prove you are right it doesn't work.
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I know it fits not the paradigm of our posts, well maybe a little.
Mason Cooley
Simon21
"histories of WORLD WARS III and IV which have had such an influence on yor good self and which the rest of the world has never heard of."
Really, you did know of the Cold War being WWIII and aren't aware of the World Wide War on Terrorism, aka WWIV. Sadly, to many wars, whats in a name eh?
Here in the "State of Texas" we're also involved on a "Border" war, a war on drugs, a war on poverty and at war for State sovereignty allowing us to kill foriegn nationals that kill any of us.
You probably missed it all up there in Oz, As in boOZe.
(the preceding was inserted to stay on topic)
Namaste :)
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Aquarizonagal,
I once had copies of USDA leaflets on how to grow hemp, with instructions on cultivation for seed or fibre. Hemp remains an important crop and anyone who has worked with proper hemp rope will prefer it to any other natural fibre.
Long ago, standing in a queue in a pet store, I saw someone ahead of me getting a pound of very familiar-looking seeds. When It was my turn, I was shaking like a kid trying to buy condoms, but managed to get the seeds anyway. Sadly, although very nice and plump, not a single one germinated..;-( The ones which came with mexican herb, on the other hand.....
The law is often an ass, with it being perfectly legal to gather and consume magic mushrooms, but illegal to dry them, as that constitutes "preparation of a drug".
I agree with Jack that prohibition is the root of all the problems, as it creates the "black" market, which is profitable in direct proportion to the zeal with which the authorities prosecute their totally futile and un-winnable "war on drugs".
I'm not the first to point out that we could solve the poppy problem in Afghanistan at a stroke by simply purchasing the entire crop, and with a massive saving in blood and treasure. It would also severely dent the power of the warlords (and the CIA's source of funds for "black" operations) The same could be done in Colombia with Cocaine, but in both cases there are some very powerful folk involved, and some of them in very high places indeed.
Glad you enjoyed the tale of Great Uncle George. I do recommend Pynchon - start with Vineland. I also recommend the Monkeywrench Gang, by Ed Abbey, who was rather fond of your deserts, and also wrote Desert Solitaire, which you've probably read, but if not, don't waste any more time!
A Dios
ed
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Simon
I think Newt Gingrich recently wrote a book. He's the one I first heard talk of WWIV."#
This is Gringrich the failed politician, the inept idealogue whom Clinton managed to run rings around.
Is he now inventing world wars? More importantly is Gringrich considered to be a proper "historian"? Clearly the term is used ludicrously broadly in some quarters.
Is Clinton consdiered a "historian"
"The campaign medal for WWIII was the demise of the USSR. "
So who gets to wear this medal then? Newt Gringrich?
Perhaps Gringrich could tell a gathering of US veterans how he and other policians and diplomats fought and won WWIII. He could thrust his chest out and show his WWIII medal.
Better keep the car running though.
"Since the US taxpayer footed most of the bill for it over a period of around 40 years, I'm hardly surprised you hadn't heard of it."
I think you will find most US taxpayers haven't heard of it either. Those who can still take care of themselves.
"Had Europeans paid even a reasonable portion of their fair share considering that they were the object of the Soviet Union's desire to expand in Europe in their dreams of global conquest, Europe would be in even worse shape than it is today and you would not be able to afford any NHS or social safety net. "
Pretty shrewd of Europe then eh? Regard it as payback for Europe's part in saving the US from Kaiserine Germany and Hitler's Third reich.
"Frankly, looking at the results and lack of recognition or gratitude, I think it was a very bad investment on America's part."
Oh dear, well why don't you ask the US Mint to issue a spanking set of real WWIII medals as compensation. They might seem a bit bewildered at the request though.
"As for WWIV, how may more bus and metro bombings will it take to convince you? Well however many that is, you'll probably live to see them....unless you are killed in one. Right now there's a lot of attacks going on in India and Turkey. But don't worrry, they haven't forgotten the future Eurabia either."
I'll be convinced of WWIII and IV when they occur. Let's make this easy. People in 1939-45 didn't think they were in a world war because the musings of a failed, far -right politico - the armies and battles were a bit of clue.
Ditto World War one which wasn't caused when some overweight, US political hasbeen
wrote a self-aggrandising book.
If only.
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Really, you did know of the Cold War being WWIII and aren't aware of the World Wide War on Terrorism, aka WWIV. Sadly, to many wars, whats in a name eh? "
Quite a bit actually and if Texas had ever been involved in a real war recently Texans might be less frivolous about using the term
"Here in the "State of Texas" we're also involved on a "Border" war, a war on drugs, a war on poverty and at war for State sovereignty allowing us to kill foriegn nationals that kill any of us."
As I say talk to people who have lived in real wars and learn the difference between war and an advertising slogan.
You probably missed it all up there in Oz, As in boOZe.
(the preceding was inserted to stay on topic)
Down there in Oz surely, whihc is incidently vastly bigger than Texas, has fewer guns , no death penalty and has never had any prohibition
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Edinglehart
'Desert Solitaire' is a beautiful book that was a comfort to me during the years that I lived away from my beloved desert. I just wish some of the horde moving in would go back home! Many try to recreate the environments that they came from in a unique and very fragile ecosystem. It will be our ruin!
As to your opinions on drugs etc., I share them. Arizona voted to legalize 'the herb' and the Fed knocked this down. Desperately poor people will grow, do, and survive however they can. If viable alternatives are not offered, they will continue to grow crops that bring in the cash. During the Depression, many otherwise law-abiding people, produced various forms of alcohol, even though that was illegal, in order to care for their families.
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320, Marcus.
Not coy - anonymous. I don't want a bunch of loonies knocking on my door.
224, 225, Jack.
American, with a large chunk of time spent living and working abroad.
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In today's New York Times "Week in Review," there isan article entitled "The Decline of the British Pub Scene."
The causes for are decline are the smoking ban, the loss of community, and glitzier venues. In spite of fewer people frequenting pubs, there is an increase in drinking and an increase in younger drinkers.
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I think this just confuses a level of openess about alchohol with consumption.
Great Britain is well down the list of consumers. Go to France a larger consumer and alcholism is alive and well but the drunkeness takes place behind close doors.
Should we harass people into drinking Supermarker six packs at home or maintain what is for the most part a unique and vibrant social scene.
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Ms Marbles,
and VERY cheap alcohol in supermarkets. Most pubs have set up outdoor areas for smokers, but when a pint costs £2.50 (or much more) and a half-liter can can be had for around (or under) £1, who's going gonna go down the pub?The local youth use our community woodland as an "underage drinking club", with its log cabin and campfire space and its location away from any neighbours who might be troubled.
Personally, if I was a parent of kids in that age group, I'd be glad they were there, rather than haning out on the pavements in town and looking for trouble. I've been delegated by the other trustees to drop by on a friday/saturday evening just to "show a face" and ask them to be non-destructive - it mostly works.
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and we'll need the next generation as active community woodlanders in due course.
Slainte!
ed
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A social conscience directs us away from our true responsibilities. Keeping me and mine freak-free is what is really important. Let the rest of the world go drinking and drugging. That is their choice and their loss. Except in a vague way, I really don't care about them.
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Spot on Mr. Webb! Sounds like you need to dip into a bit of easy-access (but methodologically rigorous) social anthropology. For the English, I'd recommend Watching The English by Kate Fox, in which she explains that British people HATE earnestness (hence our condescension to Americans, especially when it comes to patriotism and religion), but that we are socially awkward and therefore need facilitators. This is can range from the weather to...the wrong type of leaves on the track (social facilitators aren't very wide-ranging, it seems). But commonly people rely on alcohol. It is, to a large extent, socially in-bred, which made it very awkward for me when starting at the LSE as all the foreign students, Americans included, thought I was an absolute drunk, even though by British standards I'm not.
And at the risk of essentialising a huge, diverse nation, I would suggest that part of the reason for American earnestness is its origin as a place of refuge for immigrants wanting to improve their lot. You have to be very self-assured and earnest to settle across an ocean way back in the early days, which the puritans were (along with being persecuted under Charles I) and this social self-selection has continued to this very day.
The US is like an elite club - only the people who want it enough make it there, and they have to continue to work earnestly in order to set up a new life once they have made it. This created a social milieu in which earnestness and hard work were highly valued, and from that sprang the American Dream.
I'd say Australia and Israel have similar stories. Self-made nations, just like self-made people, seem to lack the ironic decadence of those who have inherited a nicer position on this earth, be it by nation or family. Of course, many Americans, Australians and Israelis are very ironic and plenty are decadent, too, but they seem to be seen as deviant from the national psyche, rather than generating one in their image as has happened in Britain.
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jf #355
You might have been more successful with women in your life if you'd plied them with liquor....instead of hitting them over the head with a hammer. You can't turn them into frogs and they can't turn you into a prince.
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Well, I have yet to see anyone post a credible rebuttal to my original description of the UK drinking scene (no. 145).
The weather can't be an excuse. If so, towns in the Pacific Northwest or British Columbia or Vermont would be full of violent, puking drunks of all ages at night week in, week out. But they aren't.
As for the drunks being mostly young, any Brit who believes this is living in a co-dependent delusion. I remember the account of a middle-aged British City trader who drowned while on holiday in Portugal. In a tribute to him, his (also British, also middle-aged) friends described how great he was. This was their example of his "zest for life"--when his child was born, he was "so happy and proud" he went on a three-day bender. Apparently it's considered normal behavior in the UK for a new father to disappear on a multi-day drinking binge as soon as the sprog arrives. In the same tribute, it was reported that he could also be found slumped over drunk in the elevator at work for hours at a time, but nobody ever said anything because he "was such a great guy to be around" and "a real team player."
Near us, we've had to step over passed out pensioners in the street.
I know several young French professionals working in the UK who are appalled by the behaviour of Brits in bars. In France, they say, people do drink when they go out, but it's to relax with friends, usually while having a meal. People in the UK go out with the sole purpose of getting drunk as fast as they can and for as long as they can.
One popular organiser of boozefests in Prague says that out of "respect for the locals" he encourages the people on his tours to hold off "serious drinking" until 11 am. (!!!)
In its tourist propaganda, the UK shows pub scenes as places where convivial people get together to talk and laugh over a few pints of handcrafted real ales. The reality is that they are more likely to be at bars, not pubs, downing pitchers of vodka and Red Bull or shooters or alcopops.
But it is true, the vomit and broken glass are usually cleaned up before shoppers hit the High Street the next day. That's where our council tax money is going. Nice use of our money, innit?
Some towns have started Mop Cop brigades, who make public drunkards clean up the stinking puke and piss. Good on them. Finally, FINALLY, something is being down (as little as it is) to hold binge drinkers accountable for their actions.
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Simon21
Your ignorance is monumental. There were approximately 100 proxy wars mostly in the developing world fought as part of the cold war. About 100,000,000 people are believed to have died in them. What do you think Vietnam was? Why do you think Africa became armed to the teeth? Go back to your pub. Maybe you'll have better luck at throwing darts at a dart board.
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lostallyourmarbles 361
Try to guess my profession, I dare you. Hahaha, you can't guesss. C'mon just try. Twenty questions. Congratulations jf, you guessed it, one of your guesses is right...but I'm not going to tell you which one it is. But there are a lot of extras...but I'm not going to tell you what they are. I'm not being coy, I just don't want a bunch of loonies knocking down my door.
lostyourmarbles, do you actually think anyone cares what you do...or don't do? Your wildly exaggerated sense of your own self importance is proof you are a loonybird yourself. All that's left from the list is journalist....I know, you write the handyman ads for the Penny Press flyers they give away free at the exit in the supermarket.
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370, Marcus
You, on the other hand, would love to have loonybirds (or anybody) knocking at your door. You have always sounded profoundly lonely.
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#369 - MA2
Vietnam - 211,454 American service personnel dead, injured or missing presumed dead is a proxy war?
No wonder you protect your anonymity so fiercely. I would not want to be in your shoes when a vet figures out who are.
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#372Threnodio
A double AMEN to your post. I know several people who might enjoy that!
Politicians at the time did everything but stand on their heads to avoid using the word WAR but it was a terrible one, as are all wars.
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Solzhenitsyn has died.
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threnodious
North Vietnam was a proxy for the USSR. Who do you think supplied them with everything it took to run that war. On their own they'd have folded up like a cheap tent in a couple of weeks. The reason Haiphong harbor wasn't blown up was because the risk of blowing up Soviet ships would have turned it into a hot war directly between the US and USSR. After Cuba, it became obvious that the two sides couldn't risk a direct face to face confrontation.
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lostallyourmarbles, don't come knocking on my door whatever you do. Loonybird women are a dime a dozen in America. Just got off the phone with one not fifteen minutes ago.
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376, Marcus.
She dumped you, didn't she?
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Justcorbly #49: "Americans do drink to excess on certain ritual occassions, but it's been my experience that Brits are more likely to regularly drink with the express purpose of getting drunk."
I completely agree with this sentiment (which is much more explained in much greater detail in post #145 by ‘JeanetteIsabella!) Young Americans (those under 30) of course drink every weekend and especially on vacations/holidays!! But the above mentioned descriptions appear to be the case for British of all ages (and with the purpose of getting wasted and not to have fun with friends.) Now I’m not stereo typing and over generalizing here people!! But Justin was right, if one was to compare the two cultures in general (and yes #167, a nation spawns its own individual culture!) this comparison I think would stand. Although I don’t buy into the reason for America being less of a drinking culture being that there is some connection to the puritons.
Threnodio #53: "In my experience, people the world over are much the same. If you treat them with respect, they will reciprocate.
If, on the other hand, you start talking about piracy, commonness and arrogance there is an outside chance they will not take to you and react accordingly."
That is soo true!! If only people of all nations could read this post!!
DesktopCynic #70: "Whereas here in the US it's generally not legal until 21 so no one really gets started until about 19. I think it makes a difference. Or am I being naive?"
I’m afraid you’re being naive. Americans start drinking at around 16/17 as well, they just hide it better. And alcohol is easy to get underage here, you just need a good fake ID or to look 21. But I agree with you on the ‘Americans work harder than Europeans comparison. No one can truly tell who works harder than who unless they study them for a while or keep close tabs on them.
RalphMa #73: "What is up with English soccer fans? I mean, come
on guys, get a life! It's a game where you kick a ball around."
Yes, and American football is a game where you throw and kick a ball around and yet there seems to be no shortage of routy Americans screaming at TV screens and players when attending these games are there? I’d like to appologise to all foreigners on all rude Americans behalf!
Meloda #84: "The second is the Empire and more importantly the loss of it. This had rendered taking yourself seriously (as a nation) almost impossible."
Why? So just because the UK is no longer an “empire” (technically) there is nothing to be proud of about it? Well forgive me, but that seems very childish to me!What is the purpose of life if one doesn’t have a sence of identity? And besides! The points you mentioned in the end of your post are reasons enough to have a sence of pride in one’s country-to me at least.
"I believe puritanism is a very immature philosophy and generally people (or nations) who take themselves too seriously are generally extremely insecure."
Well then I guess mark me down as such! I’m always freeking out over what foreigners will brand me simply because I was born an American! Wow! I’ve just figured out why I feel this way! No shrinck visit for me then!
"As regards the lack of "get-u-and-go" spirit in Britain I think the facts tell a different story. We are the 4th or 5th largest economy is the world. We
are world leaders in so many sectors - arts/ invention/ science/ sport (well maybe not sport:). We just do not constantly pat ourselves on the back, we actually do the opposite (put ourselves down)."
How’s that been working for you? Some advice, try not patting yourselves on the back or braging!! For as you have learned from the Americans, it only leads to more stereo types being set in stone and ridicule of the people and all things American! But if the occasion arises, begrudgingly admit to some positive deed done by your nation and admit to a sencce of pride for it. See how that fits for a change!
Mathmystic #92 Drugs are a problem everywhere, not just in America!
DeadlyKipper #95 "Do you really think Gordon Browns 'seriousness' gives him inner strength?"
No of course not! But this is a tricky comparison. World leaders can’t act like normal people. If they’re too serious they get branded as not being real or human, but if they act too layed back and care free they get accused of being too chummy! That is why I personally (were I a world leader) would always stick with being serious! Better to be accused of being inhuman than subservient of a bully!!
"The way that man flip-flops on issues I wouldn't be surprised if his back-bone was made of jelly."
And the same could be said of McCain as well!!
"And surely a greater sense of humour over too much seriousness allows people to ignore ill-informed, generalised comments about entire nations, rather than worrying that someone thinks we're an island of drunks."
Well that’s wonderful that that works for you then. It doesn’t for me! If I have a greater sence of humer (in the presence of foreigners), then I run the very real risk that (should I make a mistake) the stereo types of Americans will be set in stone for me and no doube countless others!! I will not have done either myself or any other Americans any favors by helping to confirm the ‘ignorant, aragant, stupid, what have you stereo types of us! That is why I am ever viggolent around foreigners, and am rarely (if ever) myself!
Richnoodle #120: "The reason their are no drunks on the streets of my town in Texas, is that all the drunks are in their cars driving home. Straight out of a club and into their cars!What's better, a few brawls and puking on the streets or killing someone whilst drunk driving?"
My thoughts exactly!! If only the engineers of manifest destoney could’ve predicted this, may be they would’ve thought differently, huh?
DesktopCynick #123: "Many Americans are astonished when they hear a black person with a British accent (especially a posh accent.)"
And who prey tell are these? My! They must truly fit the stereo types of Americans, huh? But aside from that, wonderful synopsis of the stereo types on both sides of the Atlantic!! You Brits don’t know how good you have it!! I would kill to have an overwhelming positive stereo type of Americans by foreigners than the overwhelming negative one’s of which I must cope with!!
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A Bit of Crumpit #342: "There are relatively few places in the US I would live, and few Britain I would move back to, the difference being that I can afford to live in decent areas in the US."
Why is that? Is the US in your opinion just as bad a place to live as the UK? Which areas do you avoid in the US? Just curious.
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lostallyourmarbles
No, not quite. Frankly....I had a hunch she was going to want to borrow some money....so....hasta la bye-bye...baby. I don't expect that's the last I'll hear from her...unfortunately. I've met a lot of women who spend it as fast as they can get their hands on it. Especially when I lived in California.
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Vietnam - the French lost. The Americans lost. The Vietnamese won.
And none of it to do with alcohol.
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Old Gnat, after what was left of Vietnam when America left how anyone can say they won is beyond me. The place was as backwards and poor a dump as it could possibly be until recently when it started to climb out of its Communist hell hole. It still has a long way to go but at least it's closer to the surface and further from the bottom of the pit than North Korea. How did it start to change in the last few years? It started to adopt capitalism. Too bad it didn't come to that conclusion 35 years ago. Think of how much further along it would be by now.
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380, Marcus.
Too bad you have to pay for it.
If you are really lonely for women here are some things you can try:
Get rid of your undesirable traits; e.g., nastiness, pompousness, narcissism, sexism, aggression.
Develop: charm.
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Oh the irony of #382! Jacksforge could make something useful from it.
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Old Gnat; #384
"Oh the irony of #382! Jacksforge could make something useful from it."
Hope springs eternal. There's a first time for everything. Never say never.
lostallyourmarbles #384
You may not believe it but there actually comes a time in a man's life when value of the sanctity of peace and quiet outweighs the occasional pleasures that a woman's unceasing company can bring. Especially if she is a NAG. :-)
BTW, I have NEVER paid for sex in my life. Why buy a cow when there is so much free milk around?
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oldnat , maybe but i suspect there is a flaw in it. and for such a small piece maybe not worth the coke to fire weld it together.
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I will say you never get it and never get it right
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#387 jacksforge
But if we fed him the coke ...........?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The USA can be a fairly libertarian place, but is it legal for people to have intimate relations with a farm animal?
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despite the obvious rude anti woman stuff from MA a word like misanthropy is not allowed.
one more specific but just as applicable.
is it drink that causes people to be so hateful.
or is it bigotry,
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apparently we are misbehaving Nat.
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maybe we should show less spirit.
or drink more.
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as for feeding him the coke.
I really am not sure what will happen.
I think feeding coke alone will not work.
maybe if we found somewhere to add some air. though I am not volunteering.
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by the way justin . I really do agree that the brits are all drunk
but still so are the americans.
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#397 jacksforge
I think you are suggesting physical cruelty to a brave son of Uncle Sam
Shame on you sir!
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393 and i almost said 'what makes you think there was a lady involved?Maybe it is my pet that he likes to bring up normally once he has made a fool of himself.
367 as for refering to 355 how does that relate to the rant.
i see you are losing your ability to correctly evaluate .
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386, Marcus.
Hmmm... So you don't like women either. That leaves you not liking anybody.
Whoops! Got that wrong. You like you.
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nice link there nat.
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his condition has a name
misanthropy.
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nat that name for highlander that ed brought up earlier , is that also a name for someone who has THOSE sort of intimate relations with a sheep.
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#134
Agree about where to live. I used to shovel snow in a tiny East Midlands village in winter and shovel mud all summer. Everything in the garden was flattened by the wind all year!
Now I live about half a mile from a beach on the California Central Coast. We work hard but then we did in the Uk too. Here I get to enjoy the downtime more, that's all.
No contest really - although we have been dodging wildfires this year. There's lots of Brits round here and we even have a quasi British pub which my American friends use more than I do.
I think I could accurately be described as a climate migrant, rather than an economic, political or social one!
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The drinking culture in the UK has to be by far the worst thing about living there.
Its amazing how much life is negatively impacted by the binge drinking culture - health, society, violent crime, fear, etc...
I'm living in Tokyo, where its also pretty common to see public drunkenness, but its always friendly and I've never felt it was threatening or dangerous.
The difference here is that EVERYWHERE that sells alcohol also sells food (as in the continent), so "going out for a drink" actually means going and sitting in a pub around a big table and eating, drinking and chatting.
"Going for a drink" in the UK means standing in a packed, noisy bar with no food, no seats, no tables, no chance to talk, etc..
Binge drinking in the UK is responsible for the majority of the "fear of violence" effect, and responsible for a lot more violence than the current media pet (knives).
It would be incredibly easy for the government to fix (double or triple tax on alcohol in standing bars and nightclubs, halve it on places with seats that serve food). But as usual the politicians miss the real problem and fiddle on the edges....
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mediamofo #315 writes '"America is permanently drunk on 'gas', 'terror' and its own spiritual vacuity. Don't worry, Justin, we're getting there here in Britain, just a little slower."
And Justin wonders why Americans are more serious, and less care free than the Brits!! Well here it is people! This is why at least this American lacks a-some would say-personal sence of humer (that is an ability to laugh and poke fun at one's nation/nationality!!)
But mediamofo, don't worry, we're being weaned off these things, slowly but surely!
O and the only places that don't have public transport in the US are the very small towns and/or the states which primarely consist of farm land! So perhaps Americans are just a bit better at waiting until they are in a cab/on a bus before they puke after drinking too much?
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"But this seriousness gives individuals an inner strength - a dependability - that some Brits lack."
Well thank you so much for the compliment-they are rare and hard to come by now adays!! But surely you are not implying that Brits are less dependable than Americans because of their suposid "lack of seriousness", are you? Because if you are, then that's a bit "anti-British" in my opinion!
No harm intended-just curious.
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threnodio please tell me you read my sinopsis on the Supreme Court on the 28th July entry.
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I don't think booze has sapped British spirit. I think ( and being an American, I can only think) that it is as a couple of posters have said . It is the loss of the "Union Jack that the Sun never sets upon" that has sapped British spirit! The British have always been boozers, along with the rest of Europe. Water wasn't, and still isn't, that healthy. Heck, the British went to war with China to protect opium smuggler's there! The British brought most of the rum into the US during prohibition. Now alchohol's a problem?
HHHAAAA!
As the British-born play with "Frank-n-Firter" once said, " I'll remove the cause, but not..........the simpton!"
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#410 - NoRashDecisions
Yes I did read it and yes I was being sarcastic.
The Judicial Committee of the House of Lords, the current equivalent is being replaced next year by a Supreme Court but the appointments system will be quite different. (See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_Kingdom)
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How much fun it is to watch Europeans dance around the issue of why their civilization is finally in terminal decline looking for every possible explanation except the right one which stares them squarely in the face. One wonders how they can miss it. Are they simply blind to it because they are so sure their fatal mistake can't possibly be wrong because they've gotten by in spite of it, clinging to it all these centuries as their credo or is it that they just don't want to face it. Either way, it is taking its relentless toll and finally, the end is in sight. Their false pride cometh be for a very big fall.
401 lostallyourmarbles
I reserve my affections for the limited number of people who merrit it. For those who claim to love everyone, their love is truely worthless. Having a handful of true friends and loves in one's life makes you truely rich. That is an example of ancient Chinese wisdom. Those few are not to be confused with the mere aquaintenances most people mistakenly call friends. As for loving myself, even the theoretical Marxist Erich Fromm knew what the objectivist Ayn Rand knew, that if you don't love yourself first and most of all, you cannot really love anyone else.
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Cynic (406),
or a White Settler!As to Teuchter, my understanding is it's broadly equivalent to "redneck", but specific to highlanders, and doesn't have any particular connotations regarding intimacy with sheep. That's left to the Welsh (ducks to avoid plate thrown by Welsh wife)
OldNat can probably correct me if 'm wrong. He's a proper Scot, while I'm just a pretendy wannabe
;-)
ed
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"Teuchter" does have some connotations of "redneck" in that it's used by those in Southern Scotland to describe those living in the old Pictland (north of the River Tay) in a derogatory way.
The character of a teuchter might best be summed by the comic strip character Angus Og
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Darkest Orifice,
Please keep both hands above the desk.Complain about this comment
Simon21
Your ignorance is monumental.
Now now.
"approximately 100 proxy wars mostly in the developing world fought as part of the cold war."
Proxy smoxy World wars are not "proxy wars" Nothing proxy about Iwo Jima was there? The Ardennes Offensive, Kursk?
"About 100,000,000 people are believed to have died in them. "
Sounds like a Gringrich statistic.
What do you think Vietnam was?
I know it was a war, not a world war. Odd you do not seem to know this.
Comes from relying on failed US politicians for your info. Try historians instead.
"Why do you think Africa became armed to the teeth? "
Because the US and others sold the various rulers arms. Selling guns is not a world war.
"Go back to your pub. Maybe you'll have better luck at throwing darts at a dart board."
I will do so with pleasure when you agree r to consult a dictionary about the meaning of World War
Incidently going by the "Gringrich" school of non-history I have identified another three. So we are now up to world war VI, any advance?
Incidently what is "unceasing female company" what is ceasing female company for that matter.
Is it a new social phenomenon? Or just another case of your difficulties with english
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#416 - Ed Iglehart
I suspect the desk is only there so he resists the temptation to look down on the unemployed.
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Having recently moved from San Francisco back to my native Britain I am once again disgusted by the scenes in the clubs and on the streets that don't exist to the same extent in the US, excepting Spring Break antics and the odd group of under age teens on the buses.
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#416 Ed and #418 threnodio
I think you are miscounting the hands. "He" is a composite (or do I mean compost?).
All that posting on multiple blogs, with different writing styles, and multiple identities gives the game away.
"His" identities? Well, it has to be a bunch of neo-Cons with little to do nowadays. So Cheney for one (VPs have nothing to do anyway). Blair is obviously the Campden Town end. Do they have computers in US jails? - if so I'd suggest Libby. Can't be Bush for obvious linguistic reasons.
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#420 - oldnat
I think he's Homer Simpson - and that I'm homerphobic.
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Old nat and Ed,
thank you.
I was wondering, I friend of mine from scotland said in reference to dick chainme once, and I had to ask for clarification.
Simon brings to the front the very real arguement , (and lucky I'm not sloshed I might get offensive) that the number of world wars is inflated by americans.
like the "world series"(something most of the world does not know exists) we now have the WORLD WARS, of america.
all other wars don't really count only WORLD WARS of america.
A very american attitude.Probably promoted by people who must be drunk.
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OI MARCUS WAKE UP.
WAKE UP.
no answer he MUST be busy.
Go check your fields
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With credit to Power_to_the_People,
Sweet oblivion!
;-)
ed
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At last some honesty from a BBC journalist! You are correct, the UK has a major alcoholism and alcohol abuse problem. It is at least as serious as that in the former Soviet Union.
Observing that the British don't take themselves as seriously as Americans surprised me. My perception is the opposite---that the British are stuffy, formal, and take their little customs and eccentric behaviours all TOO seriously.
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413, Marcus.
In your reply to me you actually made sense, for a change.
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Americans who visit Britain often observe little bits of language, culture or architecture that reminds them of certain things back in America. They hear a certain phrase that reminds them of the way people speak in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or see row houses like those in an illustrated Charles Dickens novel, and say 'oh, so that's where that comes from.'
But the British heritage is only one of several European ones from which American life has sprung over the last three centuries or so.
It's always amusing to see what the British think about us when they visit here.
Mutual immigration/emigration to and from the UK and USA would raise the average intelligence of both countries.
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425, Jeremy.
My impression is opposite to yours. I found the British, and Europeans in general, to be much more light-hearted than Americans. They also have the ability to laugh at themselves. Beneath the pally-pally exterior of the American is a hide-bound Puritan.
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Justin,
I could not disagree more. Far from americans having a so-called inner strength as you put it I find quite the opposite. Most americans I know have no backbone, give up too easily and rely on their passive aggressive society for control. They lost Vietnam as they had no stomach for the fight. As you well know British people care-less for losses in war. All I care about it winning full-stop! As deep down most Britons do. Hence the Empire. Americans don't have the aggression. If most US kids went to school in the UK they'd be in for a shock as well you know. My schooling was brutal, and I can say not passive-aggressive but aggressive, Lord of the Flies in a play ground. In short the UK society like Sparta breeds warriors not wimps.
This is not a view I share alone but most of my non-america colleagues do to. A better choice would be unwarranted inner arrogance.
I suggest you open your eyes and move out of washington and you're elitist cycles. Clueless simply clueless you are Justin.
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#424 Ed
I see there's an English version of marcus erroneous. Good thing there is no such thing "UK Society".
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threnodio: Ok I was just making sure your question got answered sufficiently. But the UK already has an 'High Court, so what's with this 'Supreme Court equivolant instituting buisness?
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"In short the UK society like Sparta breeds warriors not wimps."
Like those Royal Marines playing Ping Pong with the Persians?