A handshake too far?
Many thanks to allmymarbles for the post on inappropriate behaviour abroad (after the Obama policemen handshake)! Any others out there?
I loved this commentary on the visit to the UK, if only for this fascinating fact:
"German has the useful word Tantenverführer: 'A young man of excessively good manners you suspect of devious motives [literally, an aunt-seducer]."
As for the substance of handshake-gate - perhaps Chris_Harrogate and Cyril_Croydon are right or even DominickVila. Though at the White House what would happen if someone tried to grasp the hand of that marine standing by the door? Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper was a Middle Eastern head of state.
Nemius raises an interesting point about the death penalty and European thought, to which I have no ready answer.
I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off. They want Americans to embrace the NHS or its equivalent (I write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!) and get rid of their guns.
On the other hand plenty of Europeans - as Nemius writes - may well rather approve of the American way but keep quiet about it or get drowned out in public debate.
Perhaps their moment is about to come as being pro-American is the newest coolest
thing...
Hello, I'm 
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Obama was playing the tourist, that all. How many tourists get a photo standing beside a guardsman outside Buckingham Palace to take home a year I wonder.
Whether or not his visit to 10 Downing Street is another matter entirely.
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With the possible exception of political partisans, the average American will not only not see anything wrong with a young candidate shaking hands with two bobbies in London, but may actually see it as a reflection of Obama's modest background. I doubt seriously that we will see another spontaneous gesture like that any time soon, not because he doesn't want to do it but because he probably got a long lesson on presidential protocol from his advisors on the way home. Pity, I wish our leaders showed similar humility and respect for the common man that elect them and support them.
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McCain pushed Obama into seeing the world in less than 80 days and now he is upset. He like a lot of neoconservatives thought that Obama would put his foot in his mouth by knuckle thumping or bursting out in a gospel sound in a Muslim Masque or some such ignorance. Instead things went like a Mick Jaggar Rolling Stones Concert: Everybody seemed pleased.
But the the Pharasee critizing Christ, McCain and the Neoconservatives can see nothing good in Obama's whirlwind trip. To me it was entertaining if not informative. After all Obama is not the President yet, and may never be. But he showed a positive side of the U.S. that people all over the world want to see. He did not behave like a curmugeon out of step and out of time sprewing sour grapes cursing both the bread and the meat.
Old Warrior need to know when their ideology has passed. Peace may be a dream, but war and warmogering is a nightmare. If words will calm an enemy down then why not use them.
One must be careful what one wishes for because sometimes you get them in spades. A soft word turns away wrath and should be used frequently.
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Regarding other inappropriate behaviour abroad, it wasn't that long ago that Bush gave Angela Merkel a shoulder massage that made her very uncomfortable.
After reading the commentary you reference Justin, I recalled the Jon Stewart piece on the media being in love with Obama. Quite funny I thought.
As for the Obama handshake, does anyone know if it was a solid presidential-like handshake, or a tentative non-presidential-like handshake? Who cares if he shook someone's hand!!! it seems to me just more of the empty coverage of the media, like the fist bump, etc, etc.. (of which Stewart also has a funny piece regarding The New Yorker cartoon).
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Actually, the White House is guarded by the uniformed division of the Secret Service. Marines guard embassies abroad.
http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ud.shtml
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I think it's ridiculous that people are making such a big deal out of a handshake. Who cares if he shook hands with a police officer? What does it matter? He has the right to shake whoever's hand he wants to! Why must every action that a candidate takes (though, this blog and the press have been seemingly only doing this to Obama, completely ignoring McCain) be analyzed for some hint of their personality or some flaw in it? I think this is a ridiculous activity that needs to end.
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For heavens sake - he shook hands with a couple of coppers. So what? Can we not move on PLEASE?
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And regarding the comment on "would tend to hold a policeman in higher esteem than a politician!". That might be mostly right, but then, I'm not a black person that faces racial profiling by the police or police brutality.
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I take exception to the DominickVila comments about America's lack of class consciousness. That is only true superficially. Outwardly we are very friendly, a pal to all. but that is deceptive.
An easy test is to look at married couples. An educated man or woman does not have a spouse who says ax instead of ask. Poor English, unless you are a foreigner, is one indication of class. Almost without exception, educated people marry educated people, blue-collar marries blue-collar and money usually marries money.
However, in America you rise up out of the class you were born to. Is that easier here than in Europe? I don't know.
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The cultural and political differences that have characterized European-American relations for decades remind of those family quarrels that we all have at one time or another. They should not be ignored, but they seldom result in a serious breakup. The socio-political tensions that flare up between us every now and then are caused, in part, by the perception that the USA is heavy handed, arrogant, and greedy; but other factors such as our insistence to bear arms, the death penalty, opposition to abortion and gay marriage, and our refusal to put in place a universal health care system accessible to all citizens are often as offensive to them as our aggressive foreign policy. Ironically, the same is true for many of us who, for better or worse, object to government run systems, don't understand why europeans are so "soft" on crime and so reluctant to intervene in foreign lands to advance their interests and values.
Our ethnicity and history are intertwined, but there is definitely a socio-political divide between us.
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#9. This comment was in reference to Justin Webb's link.
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The handshake was bizarre; but not worthy of this much debate. It's a bit like shaking the hand of your Dustman; you don't go out of your way to do it, but it's nice to make the effort to thank him for a job well done. (not that I'm suggesting the job of Police Constable and Dustman are on a par - especially with all the council strikes).
As for wanting Americans to give up their guns; quite frankly they can have as many as they want, but if I were an American I would be asking some serious questions about why the local police force wasn't available to protect me when needed making me feel the need to protect myself. You pay the taxes; demand the service in return. Police/Fire/Teachers do an incredible job, but there is always room for improvement.
And how the US provides healthcare for its citizens is its own business, but when there are more people without healthcare in the USA than there are people in the whole of the UK, something needs to be done. However I doubt a US NHS would work; the average joe just wouldn't be willing to pay the cost.
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"I were an American I would be asking some serious questions about why the local police force wasn't available to protect me when needed making me feel the need to protect myself."
As for the remark about the police force, it is alot harder to to provide the same police coverage for 304,712,000 people compared to 60,587,300.
Plus spreade that out over 9,629,091 square miles compared to 244,820.
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#12
"...However I doubt a US NHS would work; the average joe just wouldn't be willing to pay the cost...."
Sadly you're probably right. Everyone wants or needs an NHS type system in the US, but, they don't want to pay for it. OR at least the notion of, I'm paying into this system and never use it, or why am i paying into a system that others use frequently..or, why should i help others who can't pay, that's not my problem??
The premise being I'll pay for something when i want/need it, not before.
Any form of "liberalism" is pounced on and immediately rejected....
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I'm an american graduate student in my late 20's... and I don't personally know anyone who doesn't want universal health care. Coverage is getting worse here, nothing is guaranteed... especially at the level you have access to just after you leave college and are starting entry-level jobs. I have friends who've faced bankruptcy due to medical debt, who've put off going to the hospital until it was nearly too late, who've been refused treatment because they didn't have insurance. And being covered doesn't mean the insurance company will actually cover your costs. Health insurance is a bureaucratic nightmare with innumerable loopholes for insurance companies to get out of paying. I know several people who are planning to use their doctorates to immigrate to canada or europe after leaving school... and I know a few who already have.
No American I know *wants* this... you guys actually believe we *want* this?
The problem is that as citizens we have very little control. We're a large country which is more or less run by a very small ruling class, a group of people that apparently receives considerable funding from corporate interests and is not personally affected by problems like lack of health care. Every election we vote not on policies but on people, between two individuals the two parties have presented us with, and there's no real way to be sure either person will have our interests at heart.
I have some hope for Obama though. I guess we'll see.
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"I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off. They want Americans to embrace the NHS or its equivalent (I write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!) and get rid of their guns.
On the other hand plenty of Europeans - as Nemius writes - may well rather approve of the American way but keep quiet about it or get drowned out in public debate. "
Hm. I bet the Americans who read THAT aren't going to like it. I mean, if Americans are led to believe that Europeans want Americans to get rid of their guns, that'll get quite a strong reaction from the Americans here, I'll wager! We'll have to wait and see... Hm. It makes you wonder if getting a strong reaction was the blogger's intent...
Wait a minute! The BBC exists to inform. The reason the BBC HAS this blog is probably to give Americans a realistic, nuanced idea of how Europeans think! And vice versa! Throwing out glib generalizations and re-enforcing stereotypes -for the purpose of provoking an angry and defensive response- why, that wouldn't be helpful, and maybe even counterproductive.
Provocation? No, that can't be the blogger's intent, can it, Mr. Webb! What was I thinking...
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Europeans want America to be like Europe and do what they tell it to (assuming they can figure out what that is.) This is their first mistake. They get insistant when they get a mild rebuke. Then they get a sharper brushoff and get irate. That's when those of us who have had enough of them tell them where to go....except the polite ones who just ignore them. Then they get bent out of shape because they've been ignored.
We don't want an NHS here. Yes we want something but not that. We don't want waiting lists and filth and all of the other inadequacies of the British system. Even Canadians sometimes come south for medical treatment sometimes. You will notice there aren't throngs of people dying in the streets of America for lack of medical care. Unlike Britain our medical system is not broken, only our system of paying for it is. The trick is to fix that problem without creating a much worse one in the process.
If Barack Obama offended Europeans by shaking hands with a policeman, that's good. If he becomes President and does his job properly, he will be offending a lot more Europeans and others so he'd better get used to it. Americans get offended by people from other cultures too when they violate our social mores. If they do it here and it is illegal like arranging marriages for 14 year old girls, they go to jail for it. So far we don't have a death penalty for that yet. As for the perceived brutality of American life, what about the brutality of European life. Ever been to a bullfight Mr. Webb? I have in Madrid. And what was even more revolting than the bullfight itself was watching a catholic priest in his vestments enjoying every minute of it. I was in shock. Don't give me a pile of garbage about how it is a traditional ritual. Let's call it for what it is, a sadistic cruel barbaric abuse of animals. I'm sick of that holier than thou manure I always hear from Europeans.
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#14
Health insurance in america, if you have it, is paid for on a monthly basis.... a pretty stiff fee in some cases. It's just like any other sort of insurance... you're paying into a fund which is used to pay out to all of the company's clients. *In addition* you pay on a per-instance basis, any time you make use of health care, for anything the company doesn't feel like paying for. This is not a matter of just paying for yourself and just paying when you're sick.
Where you do see distrust of national health care... that's probably due to programming. For most of my life we were told by the government and american media institutions that national health systems were inherently broken... we were given the same images we were given of communist russia during the cold war: long lines, insufficient services, destitute doctors, no regulation for safety, etc.. ironically (with exception of the destitute doctors) that about describes the situation we have now. If you go to the ER and you're not in an ambulance, you can expect to wait a few hours... half a day isn't unheard of. Specialist appointments and non-emergency surgeries need to be scheduled months in advance. And as for safety... well, there are some hospitals in rural areas or deep in cities that you just don't go to.
Also... guns, seriously? I don't personally know anyone who actually cares about hanging onto our guns, except possibly in rural areas for hunting. Mind you, I don't really think we believe that increasing gun regulation would have a noticeable effect on crime... if we were capable of regulating guns in the inner city you'd think we'd be capable of just regulating the crime itself.
But really... do you guys actually see all americans as gun-swinging, self-centered, short-sighted cowboys?
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#16 christineIN
"But really... do you guys actually see all americans as gun-swinging, self-centered, short-sighted cowboys?"
No, but my Grandad probably did when he saw Buffalo Bill's show when it visited Scotland. Things have moved on.
MA2 is still trying to provoke antagonism towards the US by posting his ludicrous statements. l probably shouldn't have tried to help him do this more believably, but I felt sorry for him.
While the NHS in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is doing pretty well, England (and especially London) has significant problems, as they have tried to move their NHS to a more commercial model. That has significantly reduced the resources for mental health care. In his Campden Town flat, MA2 won't be able to access the care he needs.
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#16 christineIN
"If you go to the ER and you're not in an ambulance, you can expect to wait a few hours... half a day isn't unheard of."
When I was in North Carolina, babysitting my grandson, his Mum (on the medical staff of the hospital) told me I must call an ambulance in an emergency, rather than taking him to hospital myself. She said that inadequate procedures meant that ambulance cases were always prioritised over self-referrals.
In Scotland, there is an automatic triage assessment for all Accident and Emergency admissions, so that urgency of treatment is always the priority.
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Well one plus one equals two. Even in OZ. A couple of years ago, we heard a diatribe from BBC about awful conditions in one or two buildings at Walter Reed Medical Hospital and there was an emergency project to get patients our of the affected areas and clean the mess up. But what about NHS. It just celebrated its 60th birthday. While Walter Reed is forgotten ancient history, just one more episode in the eneless litany of America bashing from BBC, nobody even mentioned comparing what NHS provides to typical American medical treatment. Well here's some counterbalance to see what the other side that brags about itself has to offer its clients.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/853767.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/dec/31/health.bbc
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/tantalus/blog/2008/07/06/bbc_propaganda_week_for_the_nhs
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/07/06/dl0601.xml
There are so many articles, blogs, and anecdotes documenting the failure of Britain's NHS it's a wonder anyone gets better. The above are just a handful.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/324/7330/135
"The per capita costs of the two systems, adjusted for differences in benefits, special activities, population characteristics, and the cost environment, were similar to within 10%. Some aspects of performance differed. In particular, Kaiser members experience more comprehensive and convenient primary care services and much more rapid access to specialist services and hospital admissions. Age adjusted rates of use of acute hospital services in Kaiser were one third of those in the NHS.
Conclusions: The widely held beliefs that the NHS is efficient and that poor performance in certain areas is largely explained by underinvestment are not supported by this analysis. Kaiser achieved better performance at roughly the same cost as the NHS because of integration throughout the system, efficient management of hospital use, the benefits of competition, and greater investment in information technology."
No thank you Mr. Webb, we'll solve our own problems all by ourselves. That's how it works best here.
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When Mr. Obama was in Albuquerque, New Mexico during the primaries. He happened upon my wife who was walking to the auditorium to hear him speak. She was thrilled to see him in person and gave him a warm greeting in Spanish, which he then thanked her for in Spanish. He then gave her a rather spontaneous and heartfelt hug. That wasn't very presidential either, it was just something people do.
To blazes with presidential protocol! I want a real human being in the Whitehouse who worries more about doing good for his countrymen rather than looking good for the empty minded, well starched, critics of the world.
As Alfred Adler once wrote and I quote: "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them", end quote.
The way true patriots fight for their principles is by the very act of living up to them, spontaneously and without worry of what others may think.
I truly believe that Mr. Obama is just that sort of fellow. And I have a feeling that there are at least a couple of bobbies on duty at 10 Downing street who have a similar feeling about it.
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#15
"...Every election we vote not on policies but on people, between two individuals the two parties have presented us with, ..."
And there in lies the problem, depending upon ones point of view.
You can elected as many Republicans or Democrats concurrently as you like, but each has their own personal "policies". So there is no continuation of a policy, as you say, that is made by "others".
Whereas in the UK, Labour, whether new or old, and conservative have very different ideologies (they have just blurred over recent years owing to spin). Ostensibly Labour have championed looking after the people, but forgetting the effects on the economy and conservatives looking after the economy and forgetting the people.
The "leader" was just the spokesman for the party, as such. Being able to get the message across in a forthright way...
Open up any Party manifesto, you know what you're getting and what you're voting for...year in year out, with minor changes as years go by.
If there is a huge majority voting for one party and said party wins...then making policies into law becomes easy. Since that is what the majority voted for! Don't like it, don't vote for them....
But this does not appear to be the case with US parties/presidents. As you say, it is a vote for a personality, not policies.
#18
I live in Japan, and there is a "similar" insurance system here. But, my premium does not go up if i make a claim, my premium is not affected if i have had a previous 'complaint/condition', etc etc. The insurance company here is set up to help the patient not shaft them financially.
I can also have more than one policy and claim on all, at the same time too!
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#21 MA2
But in England you have tried to "solve our own problems all by ourselves", and your health care is poorer than the rest of Europe, or the rest of the UK. You must stop being so Anglo-centric.
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Justin
Why on earth do you keep going on about the handshake?
I can only assume, that it's some peculiar English concept that I don't understand.
I live next door to England, I'm 3000 miles away from the USA, but the responses of Americans suggest that I've got far more in common with them, than I have with you.
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For one brief moment, one man shakes another man's hand and because of their different stations in life, a nation goes bananas. Now AFAIAC, that's all you need to know to be convinced that the UK is one screwed up place.
Old Gnat, bzzzzzzzzzz
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#26 MA2
At last we agree. Your class ridden nation goes bananas over a handshake.
The Scots and Americans find these bizarre rituals incomprehensible.
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Justin Webb.
What has the perceived brutality of Americans have to do with embracing an NHS-type system? Am I missing something?
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Being American is the coolest thing?
Based on the extraordinary amount of intense anti-Americanism - the contempt, the hatred, the bitterness, the anger, the weird, ugly stereotypes - it is very unlikely.
I would settle for just ordinary decency and courtesy from our British former friends. But even that seems to much to ask.
It's a great shame. I once had great respect and admiration for the citizens of Britain, a great nation, or rather three great nations, England, Scotland and Wales. I grew up as an anglophile. But that is now gone. Too much hatred.
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#29 TimothyR444
I agree that the British (can't forget their Imperialist origins) can be a problem, but where do you get the idea that there is anti-Americanism among the Scots?
Most of us have family in the USA (I have more relatives in the US than here!)
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USA folks posting here who are busily pointing fingers at the UK's NHS and claiming that folks over here don't want anything like it - tell me: how much is your annual income and what US medical coverage do YOU have?
I have none at the moment after mine was cut off. My youngest grown child is wrestling with an inept work health plan in which even reasonable co-pays turn into gigantic bills issued in error with nobody answering the phone and/or nobody literate or intelligent enough to correct the billing. And/or completely incorrect lists of which specialists are "in network" such that the health-insurance provider is claiming that there are no basic specialists of just about any kind available "in network" in NEW YORK CITY.
So my child is faced with non-ability to go to properly-referred specialists and thus is facing further health crises which would mean further huge emergency bills due to incorrect billing for co-pays....
So - again - what wonderful health plans do these folks have who claim that the USA is capable of "handling" its own health system as it stands?!!! They must be STINKING RICH is all I can say!
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oldnat:
Then that is nice to hear. I have both English and Irish family members, but no Scots.
Criticism of the US government is fair, but the hatred expressed here and elsewhere on this blog is frightening stuff. I have never owned, let alone used a gun. I care a great deal about international relations. But where is there a place to talk when the prejudice is so deep?
It's all extremely discouraging. There are even posts where American involvement in WWII is mocked and ridiculed. That is over the line, as it would be, I assume, for any posters whose family served in the wars.
My ancestors fought next to, and in one case died next to, the soldiers of Britain. I cannot imagine what they would say now - reading this hatred.
Your civility is the one hopeful sign.
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Wow!
"I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off. They want Americans to embrace the NHS or its equivalent (I write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!) and get rid of their guns."
I could make a list of things that Americans don't
like about Europe, but they would be generalizations.I can't speak for 300 million
other people, but I can make some private
observations.
First off, Justin, there is nothing simple about
the United States. We make the Byzantines look
like they invented the Age of Reason. There is
this European tendency to think that if only we
did X, where X is some fairly simple thing,
everything would be better.
I'm not saying that life in America could not
be better for the middle class; it certainly has
been in the past, and part of the reason is
that we had better leadership in the past.
But, let's take some of these points. There will
be no equivalent of your NHS. Even Obama
is not proposing that. The reason is not that
we don't want something like that, the reason
is that large government institutions in the
US don't tend to work very well.
So, we're pretty much stuck with something that
utilizes the private sector to some extent.
Whatever emerges, it won't look like what
you have in the UK, but hopefully will work
a darn sight better than what we have.
Then there is the issue of guns. We have a
fundamental disagreement here. Most Americans
view violent behavior as a social problem,
caused by social factors. I don't want to
get stabbed, shot, or run down by a car
malevolently, although I must admit that somehow
in my entire life, I have never considered the
possibility that someone would intentionally
run me down with a car.
The social factors here are way out of control.
On average, we have about 20,000 people
a week applying for permanent residency,
and perhaps more entering the country
illegally. Nobody knows how many people
are here. That last fact, and the fact that we
have essentially an uncontrolled border with
an impoverished neighbor which has one of
the highest crime rates in the world, and which
forces its citizens to come here to find work,
explains much of the brutality and lawlessness
here.
Personally, I believe that immigration is a
good thing for us, but it has to be legal and
we have to know who is coming here.
If Europe had the same amount of immigration
(legal and illegal) that we have here, you
folks would probably have navies as big as
ours.
Now, on the last point, the "pro-American" thing.
This comes and goes. People really want to
like us. I don't know why, but I'm sure that
part of it is that they like the story. But, I have
it on good authority that we are in for a rough
spell. Our deficits are out of control, our
health care system is collapsing under the
load, and we have many other problems.
The reason why Obama is doing so well for
a newcomer is not that he is such an
exceptional candidate; it is because
the power elites on both sides of the aisle
cannot comprehend how miserably they have
failed. And, we're not just a nation of whiners.
Will the rest of the world be "pro-American"
when our banking system collapses and
our influence wanes? Or will they love us
for what we are and the strength of our ideals?
More importantly, will European societies,
and other democratic states, such as the
Japanese and the South Koreans
take up the slack if our influence wanes,
and they are forced to carry more of the
burden of defending themselves against
the encroachment of autocratic powers?
Or, will they cower before them? This
all remains to be seen. One thing is sure,
this world will be reshaped in the next
50 years.
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"I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off. They want Americans to embrace the NHS or its equivalent (I write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!) and get rid of their guns."
It's an odd experience reading these crude stereotypes from the Washington correspondent of the BBC. Surely you have enough direct experience of American life to know that the reality of American life is fra more complex and varied?
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#35: I agree. And he's wondering why Obama didn't invite him on to his trip!
Re: 'the American way' -surely after 300 sodding years everyone in Europe-and anyone from anywhere else for that matter- who has admired the American way has already moved out there? Or does Justin think that America has only existed since he became the BBC's correspondent there? Rather solipsistic of him if so.
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Way back in the 14th century one of my MacDougal forebears stole the Brooch of Lorn from Robert The Bruce. After the battle of Bannockburn, The Bruce took away our swords.
Back in the 18th century my Cunningham ancestors backed the Stuarts in the Jacobite Rebellions. After the '45 they took our guns and put us on ships to Virginia.
Do you really think we're going to let them take our guns again. Not even this tree hugging, California boy is going to give up 30.06. Sorry.
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Kexmar #23: I think you're exadurating the difference between people in the Republican and Democratic parties in the US just a tad! Sure each person in a given party will have views slightly different from another in that same party, but that is because no one person is the same as someone else, and that applys in politics as well!! Its the same in the UK as well!! Just look at Brown and Blair. for example. They clashed all the time when Brown was chansiler over finances and God knows what else! They obviously didn't get along very well and they were of the same "party!" If you are trying to cell a parlamentary system as the better form of government, then say things like '"Its easier to impeach a prime minister, keep the executive power in check, bills get passed much quicker through parlament with a very slim chance that they won't go through etc." But don't say '"The UK's system is better because one always knows what a party stands for!" One pretty much "always" knows what a party stands for in any democratic society! And #15, the candidates for president aren't "given" to us to choos from, they are voted on in a primarey season and then decided upon in the general election. And I know that a huge problem in the US is that it is run too much by big corperations, but I have to ask, surely we aren't the only country facing this delemma?
I only hear of it being a problem in the US and no other country. Why?
allmymarbles (I think it was)-whoever wrote the post on the class system in the US: Yes I agree with that assessment of it. However I feel abliged to point out, the class system is pretty much like this in all countries around the world (with the main difference being the difference between the wellfare and health care systems!) Someone on the previous entry (I forget who exactly) wrote that in the UK there were three main classes of people; the less well off, the well off, and the super rich. Well I have news for them and anyone else who is intrested in this topic...that's the way it is everywhere!!
threnodio #7: If you're interested, I explained the Supreme Court in the previous entry at post #195.
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#37, NoRashDecisions, for a brief period of
time (1945-1970), we had an expanding middle
class. Now, we have a contracting one.
The issue is not whether these different classes
exist, but their relative proportions and upward
mobility.
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"At the White House what would happen if someone tried to grasp the hand of that marine standing by the door? Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper was a Middle Eastern head of state."
Yes that would be interesting indeed. Lets do hope that they would be delited!! And as for the middle eastern head of state, well its just a sad and unfortionate fact, is it not, that given the contravercy surrounding terrorism nowadays, that middle easterners are given second looks and kept tabs on (if proven suspicious) more than others all over the world and not just the US. Which makes me wonder, what would happen if a middle eastern head of state were to try to shake the hand of a London policeman outside #10 Downing street?Just curious.
"I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off. They want Americans to embrace the NHS or its equivalent (I
write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!) and get rid of their guns."
Well if Obama gets elected, we won't get the "equivalent" of the NHS, but we'll get universal health care!! Isn't that great? As far as the guns go, I personally don't think one needs one to defend themself (if they take self defence classes), but I wouldn't hang too many of my hopes on European wishes of Americans giving them upto force Americans who want them to do so. I'm sorry. Its just something Europe is just going to have to except as a flaw of ours.
"On the other hand plenty of Europeans - as Nemius writes - may well rather approve of the American way but keep quiet about it or get drowned out in public debate."
May be, but sadly we'll never know for sure. Will we?
"Perhaps their moment is about to come as being pro-American is the newest coolest thing..."
Yeah, that is until either McCain wins in November or Obama makes his first mistake as president. It is so very depressing knowing that we (on the whole) accept Europeans for who they are, why can't they do the same for us?
O and andfreedom #11: The US doesn't have the same amount of people without health care as the UK's population. The US has 47 million people uninsured, and the UK has 60 or so million people in its population.
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gunsandreligion #38: Thanks...it is sad about our middle class, though. Hopefully it will soon reverse itself! Do you know of the middle class trends in other western countries, by any chance?
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That handshake . . .it keeps coming back because nearly everyone misses the point. It's nothing to do with class, stiff upper lips and all the other crass steretypes about the English that belong at least back in the Fifties.
The English don't actually shake hands much. With whatever class someone comes from, and how would you tell, apart from the Hooray Henries and Harriets anyway? They're now just as likely to kiss you on the cheek. The French do shake hands; much more than the English—every time you meet.
The point was simply that the policeman outside No 10 is there to knock on the door discreetly so those inside know someone's on the doorstep. If I ask a policeman directions, or even the time, why should I shake hands, when "Thanks" would do? Any more than anyone should expect to shake hands with a bus driver when you get on the bus.
The point was that it looked like a staged 'photo op'. A handshake gives the snappers enough time to take a photo, which shows a policeman in a funny pointy helmet they don't wear anywhere else, therefore Obama must be in London, in lieu of a pic showing something else easily recognisable, like either the Tower (not terribly appropriate?) or Big Ben. All so the American viewers wouldn't be left wondering what this black door with a 10 on it was, or who this guy with the Scottish accent might be.
And, maybe, if it was thought out that way, maybe so was the whole 'world tour'?
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On the subject of brutality, and I am assuming you mean violence, I should think it is equally distributed throughout the world. But it's expression seems to vary with cultures. Putting gangs and mobsters aside, there is a type of violence that appears to be pecularly American. That would be the lone beserker who climbs a tower or enters a workplace or schooll and starts shooting, either for no reason, or for some imagined slight.
But we don't turn into a wild mob at sports events. That is peculiarly British. And for day-to-day living, there are many English cities I would be loathe to walk in at night, yet I can stroll through Manhattan without fear.
The difference in perception may have to do with the media. We portray ourselves as violent. We also portray ourselves as racist. The outside world would never think of us as working side-by-side peacefully with people of all colors, sharing dinners with them, and marrying them. But that is the reality. Unfortunately it does not sell newspapers.
Another misconception may have to do with law-abiding Americans owning guns. Unlike you we have wide open spaces and lots of game. There are people who hunt deer every year - to eat! Also in isolated areas people, or traveling on lonely roads, often feel safer with a gun.
Many years ago I sat down with an English friend and we determined that if America had the density of population that the Britain had, at that time, it would contain the entire population of the world. That gives you and idea of how empty our country is compared with yours.
We do need to get rid of are armed gangs and the sale of assault weapons. We are very aware of that problem. Fortunately the gangs only kill each other.
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I think we may be indulging in a little navel gazing with this issue. There does not seem to me to have been a peep about the handshake on any US networks/blogs (they are too busy deconstructing the 'cancelled' visit to the military hospital ).
It throws an interesting light on our cultural divide when shaking the hand of a policemen causes seismic shudders on the UK side of the pond, but is not worthy of comment in America.
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Post 41 brit-ish-ish
Your post seems prefectly reasonable. I think Justin is the only person who is excited about the handshake. I haven't heard of it anywhere else. It is simply not a story or an issue of any import to anyone in Europe. Must be a slow day on the campaign.
As for guns and health care Ithink it is simply very different points of view. Generally speaking in Europe access to health care is regarded as a basic right whilst gun ownership is not. In the US it seems that the reverse is true. If the US wishes to change its law on gun ownership then that is entirely an internal matter for the US and I doubt many in Europe are actively working to persuade Americans to change (if they are I haven't met any). There is no clamour in Europe for a "second ammendment" right to be introduced here but that is very different from Europeans wanting Americans to "get rid of their guns".
Regarding the death penalty - I have heard one "right wing" American commentator oppose the death penalty on the grounds that it gives the government the power of life and death and that government power should be a limited as possible. The views are not a simple trans-atlantic split.
On social mobility a 2005 study by the centre for econonic performance on social mobility placed the US and UK last in a comparison of countries in Nothern Europe and North America. The UK was last because while social mobility in the US was steady it was falling in the UK. What may have been true a generation ago about stagnant social mobility in Europe is no longer true.
You're all doing very well !!
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I lived in the US for 3 months and found everyone I met to be really friendly and welcoming. I didn't see any evidence of threat or brutality, and I didn't feel unsafe at any point, but then I wasn't living in an inner city area - maybe that would be different, as it often is in the UK.
I feel I must remind people in the US that Britain and England are two very separate entities. I'm Scottish, and by default I am also British, but I am not English. There are lots of differences between the Scots and the English, on many different matters. Going from south to north in Britain is often very interesting - don't tar us all with the same anti-American brush! I loved the tiny part of America I experienced while I was there, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of it next year.
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Only someone as ignorant as MA2 could lump bullfighting and the NHS together in a critique of Europe. A complete non-sequitur.
The united Europe that pan-Europeans like myself believe in at present exists only in the minds of a few right-wing Americans obsessed with the (baseless) "America from Mars, Europe from Venus" thesis.
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Who cares about a handshake?
He probbaly saw a hand and just shook it.
If there was a baby close at hand he would more than likely have kissed it too !
And didn't Tony Blair shake the hands of the policement outside the door of Number 10 when he took office in 1997?
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Maybe the telling thing here is that there are more US posters that would like to swap their current system than there are British. Everyone knows the NHS isn't perfect but we don't seem to want to swap get rid of it (I for one am here today because of it). Is anyone going to answer comment 31?
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#21 - MarcusAureliusII
My life partner was a US citizen born and raised in the City of Angels. When she settled in England, she chose voluntarily to join the NHS. Some years later, she became very ill. Eventually it became clear that she would require a liver transplant notwithstanding that she also had a heart condition. Her doctors at a specialist unit in the UK consulted colleagues in another leading hospital in Philadelphia who held out little hope but they went ahead anyway. She suffered a serious complication in theatre - I will not bore you with the details - and became the first patient ever to survive such a complication during a transplant procedure.
Post operative treatment required an entirely new drug regime which had never been tried before. In all, we estimate that the cost of her treatment ran into many millions of dollars. At no time did anyone mention payment. It was what she had signed up for - free health care at the point of need regardless of cost - and it is exactly what she received. The excellence of that care is beyond question.
Sadly she later developed other problems which were terminal. She decided that she wanted to go to LA to 'say goodbye'. She - an American - was unable to go because nobody would insure her.
I think I read in one of your posts that you have never been to the UK. Why don't you do us all a favour, stop writing about things you do not understand and keep your bigotry to yourself.
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@41 Brit-ish-ish
Quite the contrary; the policeman stands at the door to No10 to stop people knocking on the door, or people chaining themselves to the railings. Having only one guard at the door is one of those English things. Which obviously changed after the motor attack on Major in 1991, now the policeman is really just a face for the security and a relic of before the Troubles when the gate was built to stop the IRA.
The doorman (a DPG policeman) on the inside of the door is first called by the guardhouse at the gate to Downing Street, and also has a television linked to a camera across the street so that they know exactly when to open the door.
@39 NoRashDecisions
And you are proud of that?
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I should have said the above is in response to MA2 at 17 and elsewhere.
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Kecsmar (23),
Distance seems to have imparted a rosy glow to your view. The last Labour "landslide" majority was gained on the votes of slightly more than one third of the 60% of those eligible who got around to voting...roughly 18% of the electorateManifesto commitments are treated with the disdain with which they are written. All is personality, but one major difference is that toe-ing the party line is enforced by whipping!
Democracy! Love it or hope for it!
Salaam, etc.
ed
P.S. Timothy, You forgot the Irish!
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#52 - Ed Iglehart
Turnout in the 2005 general election was 61.36%.
Your point was well made. Why ice the cake with false info?
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Threnodio,
Mea culpa! I knew it was "approximately" 60%, but left out the obligatory "around".
Certainly I shouldn't be accused of providing "false" info, but I plead guilty to "imprecise".
;-(
ed
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Ed,
In that case, I don't understand '...roughly 18% of the electorate'.
We may be talking about something different.
PD.
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On second thoughts, perhaps I was following David Cunard's rule and rounding to the nearest "whole number" ;-)
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Threnodio,
Based upon a turnout of (approx) 60%, of which (approx) one third voted, I estimated (very roughly and, it appears, quite inaccurately) 60x.3=18.
I should have done the mental maths a little less quickly. After all, I am among the elect few who have actually had a peck on the cheek from Carol Vorderman. ;-)
VERY approximately, the Labour "majority" is based upon the votes of one fifth of the electorate.
In Scotland, even with a lower turnout, we do better because we have a degree of proportional representation.
Apologies all round, and virtual drinks on me.
Slainte!
ed
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Ah so you are saying that Labour was elected on about 18% of the popular vote.
OK, this is fine. I take it all back.
Have a nice day.
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Actually, a little more than 20% of the "electorate" (the total of those eligible to vote), or around one third of the actual popular vote.
This provided a "majority" of around sixty seats more than all other parties combined. I am at a loss as to how such a situation is considered "democratic" by anyone in possession of a modicum of common sense.
Y'all have a good day as well!
Shanthi
ed
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A lot of people seem to be taking the opportunity to either rubbish or defend the NHS in England/UK and compare it to the system in the US. I live in Germany, which is in many ways a combination of the worst parts of both systems, however, the standard of care is widely acknowledged to be one of the best in the world. It's nice to know that you have access to whatever medical care you need when you need it, although it does grate when you look at your payslip every month and see how much you are paying for that piece of mind. At the end of the day a pure social medicine system requires the higher earners to pay more than they would under a completely privatised system, as they need to subsidise the system for the people who can't currently afford to pay themselves. I can't imagine many Republicans signing on to that concept in the US, so if Obama wants to do anything in this area, he will need a strong Democrat Congress to push the legislation through.
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#40, NoRashDecisions, I don't have information about other countries,
but I'm sure that the statistics are available.
#41, brit-ish-ish, Now I don't know what to do. I can't shake
hands in the UK without making a spectacle of myself. And, the
last time I was in France, everyone was trying to kiss me on
the cheek like I was a soldier liberating Paris in 1944.
I'm going to see about getting a Canadian passport so that
if I make a faux pas I can blame it on them.
#42, allmymarbles, in my part of the country the gangsters are
such bad shots, that innocent civilians often get hit. Perhaps
we should give them firearm training and range practice so
that they can more efficiently kill each other off!
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#59 - Ed Iglehart
I don't think anybody does consider it democratic but there is more chance of the second coming than electoral reform - but don't tell Marcus I said so.
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"Though at the White House what would happen if someone tried to grasp the hand of that marine standing by the door? Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper was a Middle Eastern head of state."
This is such a bizarre statement. Is there any good reason to think that whoever was at the door (Marine or Secret Service) would not just politely shake their hand back? What on earth are you implying they might do to a visiting Head of State that "might not end prettily"?
"I do think the perceived brutality of some aspects of American life put many Europeans off."
I find this weird too. "Brutality"? That's a hell of a word, and one I'm farily certain I've never heard anyone apply to the US but yourself.
Equally, as #44 points out, I've seen no-one else making such a fuss over this handshake.
All in all, I hope any US readers browsing across this blog don't come away thinking that these are the sorts of things we sit around and think about here in the UK. I know I don't.
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Justin your preferences in articles and comments often seem to show a rather right wing leaning. I read Nick Cohen's article and although I don't reject everything he has to say I find it very disturbing. I am a white English male who lives in North Carolina. The reason I would vote for Barack Obama is nothing to do with race (I rather lack the liberal guilt complex - I tend to think the past cannot be judged by modern standards) it is because I read his book and found someone who is genuinely interested in finding the middle way between the extremes. Even though he may go too far to the right at times for my liking (e.g. the 'undivided Jerusalem') I believe he is genuine in his attempt to hear both sides of an argument. If his middle is not always mine that is the challenge we all face in a culture that tends to polarization.
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Post 59 Ed Iglehart
Ed you raise a fair point. The UK govt's are elected on a low proportion of those eligible to vote. The problem is the low turn out. On a 60% turnout then 84% of those voting would have to choose the same party in order to give that party a majority of the overall electorate. No party could pass that threshold. A PR system (which I'd tend to favour) would have prevented a Labour majority but in order to to form a government a coalition would only need to represent 51% of voters ie in this example 31% of the eligible electorate. 31% is a better figure than 20% but still short of being able to claim tho have the support of the country.
Even in the US presidential election the eventual winner will probably have a percentage of vote in the low 50's with maybe 60% turn out and so giving the support of about a third of the possible voters. If you factor in those not registered to vote then the percentage of real support would fall further.
Some countries make it compulsory (with a penalty of a token fine) to turn up at the voting station (even if you then don't mark your ballot paper)- not sure if that is answer?
You're all doing very well !!
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#52 Ed
As far as I am aware a vote is a vote. The percentage of turn out plays no bearing, just the result!
"...Manifesto commitments are treated with the disdain with which they are written...."
May be so, but at least one knows what one is voting for, it is clearly laid out what policies shall be introduced.
I never said its perfect, just that a party line is known in advanced. Personalities play a minor role, save for the presentation.
(very clever how you do all that cut and pasting and italics etc...beyond me!!)
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Threnodio,
Well said.Condolences and thanks for the tale, both sad and redemptive. God Bless.
AAPrescott,
Salaam to all
ed
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threnodio,
the fact that many people who write foolish trash about the US have never been there does't seem to bother you or lots of other Europeans. At least I have lived in Europe and I do know something about the UK.
From what I read about the NHS, many people with cancer have to be put on long waiting lists before they even get any treatment at all.
If an insurance company gave insurance to anyone who just happened to walk in with a pre-existing life threatening disease that would cost millions of dollars to treat, it would go bankrupt in no time, that or all premiums would go through the roof. Do you know anything about how the principles of insurance work?
tuairimiocht
what do bullfighting and the NHS have in common? Two examples of European hypicricy Americans will not follow.
allmymarbles
Violence at sporting events a British phenomenon? Do you know that in 1969 El Salvador and Costa Rica went to war over the results of a soccer match?
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I think we're all familiar with the concept of insurance (as provided by private companies). What a lot of people seem to be saying is that they'd rather it wasn't used in health care. Punishing the ill and recovering financially after they've already dealt with medical problems doesen't seem massively fair to me
Re: Cancer treatment, all I can say is that the NHS barely gave me time to understand I was ill. I don't recall how much it cost.
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#68 - MarcusAureliusII
Actually, I have exercised some care not to write anything offensive about the US, mainly because I don't find anything to complain about. It is no better and no worse, simply different.
Yes I do know how insurance works. If you had stopped to think about it for a moment, we were in the UK and approached British insurers. We obtained health cover for many countries but the US was among a handful which was excluded because of the prohibitive cost of required care in the event of an emergency.
Bullfighting may be brutal and inhumane but hypocritical? Does someone tell the bull 'don't do as I do, do as I say' before causing it to bleed to death?
Allmymarbles.
There was a period in the 70's and 80's when there was a problem with soccer hooliganism but that has generally been addressed. British fans these days are generally considered to be well behaved. Crowd violence in other sports is very rare indeed.
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"I write this in my book which I must resist the temptation to plug!"
that's a plug.
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Kecsmar,
promises, promises, and rarely fulfilled. It may well be "what one is voting for", but unlikely to be what one gets.I disagree, strongly.Not so. Explained here, and aided with a bit of programmed hotkeys to give readymade templates. If you're using windoze, try autohotkey, and if you've shown Gates the door, it's in gconf-edit...Enjoy,
;-)
ed
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"tuairimiocht
what do bullfighting and the NHS have in common? Two examples of European hypicricy Americans will not follow."
I salute your mental gymnastics in finding the blatantly obvious common thread between an ancient Spanish tradition and the post-war medical-care system of the United Kingdom. Incidently, I imagine many people in the UK would be against bullfighting. Indeed, many Spaniards are: some towns have banned it, while most in attendance are tourists. Also, the NHS is a system that is not replicated anywhere else in Europe (where a regulated health-insurance market is favoured).
In any case, it is a great pity that your mental gymnastics do not extend to knowledge of Europe, or to the correct spelling of the word hypocrisy.
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#25 oldnat and others:
Handshake=big whoop
Ed, your post make this blog worthy while Justin takes a well deserved break.
Medical Insurance and self reliance go hand in hand. I have found through the years it's not all about how much you make, but how spend your money.
In Texas cigarettes are $5-$6 a pack, beer is the same per six or more, and the uninsured can smoke and drink, then complain they can't afford Insurance. Heck, they're products of public educations; "highschool popularity" contests and Hollywoods limelight "wannabes."
The facts are, if you care about yourself and yours, you do fine in the US, and if you don't, you complain, stand in line, work the system, get from the system just what expected of yourself.
Namaste, peace, prosperty
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#72 Ed
"...promises, promises, and rarely fulfilled. It may well be "what one is voting for", but unlikely to be what one gets..."
Not the point. What one votes for is known in advance. The process involved either enables the manifesto to be become law, or it doesn't. The procedures and the process may affect the end result, but the initial position is know in advance.
So, you feel that Brown and Blair are poles apart in their policies?..or that Brown and Kinnock are poles apart?
Thanks for the link to the computer wizzardly...lost on me...i'll just stick to finger typing, it's about all i can muster!
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Justin:
You wrote:
"Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper was a Middle Eastern head of state."
You should have written:
"Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper were a Middle Eastern head of state."
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Doug, and any others interested in schadenfreude, I commend this link for your daily delectation...just scroll down and look at the most actives..
xx
ed
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Justin and the cop handshake.
What was so bad?
Did he do a Free Masons handshake?
Justin you have been to one too many diplomatic and big wig events .This was not a soldier on duty it was a policeman. Now if he turned up at Buck Palace and tried to shake a sentries hand that would be a little off.We all know the sentry could get in trouble, but cops in the UK are not the scary things they have here in the states and as many have remarked , they are people. Lowly as are Blacksmiths but still that was a bit snobby of you to comment.
As to american brutality.
It is a different brutaliety, because so many are armed people like to get brutal with things not armed, or voyeuristically through war. There is one form of violence that is never talked about here on this blog, but that is animal abuse.(not killing for food )I know of one father who if his kid were to kill a skunk would make the kid eat it.Basic rule don't kill unless you plan to eat it.
No but the joy in killing cats here in the states is something i have heard of.
Getting rid of the pests, vermin.
putting them in boxes and blowing them up .
devising ways of baiting and drowning cats,
driving at them.
Ihave heard so many tales of cruelty to cats since I have been in the states that it would make most brits I know even the ones that dislike cats(like me) to want to get armed themselves.
When this subject arises it is very rare that anyone but me tells the story teller to shut up , or be ready to get picked on by someone their own size.
A pest control company went out in Eugene and shot all the cats they could find.
scandle. not much. they are still in business.
In the UK they would be in jail.
Bruelty in the states is pretty sick.
Abu Ghraib was a public example tot he world of how america treats prisoners.
Not how the american millitary treats prisoners really. they are generally better than civilian institutions.
Given how the prison system works in the states it is very simular if not worse.making abu ghraib almost expected concidering they were probably ex prison guards that joined up.
(the biggest threat of going to jail is the threat of what may happen in the showers.)
now most americans would leave the cats alone and not shot them for comming into their garden.Most feed not shot strays.
but the others are way more open than they would be in the UK.
and it is brutal.
Chaining dogs up for days that is brutal.
Big footbal star gets done for dog fights, acouple of years and then back to the big time probably.
Not to mention the pure joy this war brought to so many fox viewers. the graphic sceens and bombing were real popular when it all started.
But then most are just good peopel occasionally led the wrong way by their leader.
Gw led to war with lies and killed innocents as govorner in TexASS .
But no one cared enough to not vote for him .Because they are a little brutal. vengeful
that is why obama is the one cantidate i will vote for.
he has not tried to appeal to the brutal side of america.
he seems to wish america to be a little more caring.
to show that good side where visitors stay and get treated real well.
that southern sense of hospitality.(and not the clans version).
So what if he shakes the cops hand?
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Would that be, perchance, the book 'Have a Nice Day', which is an attempt to see behind the cliches of America, and which I am now given to understand is now available in all 'good bookshops' ??
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Kecsmar,
I don't see much difference between US and UK on this. We all vote in the hope that, just maybe, the candidate(s) will actually try and achieve what they have promised, and they always promise plenty.The fact that the promises have much more to do with telling the electorate what extensive (and expensive) market research has determined what they want to hear than with anything resembling the candidates' (or parties') principles probably has much to do with so small a proportion of the electorate actually bothering to turn out. (apologies for such a long sentence)
Salaam, etc.
ed
BTW, thanks Doug, You're OK too! ;-)
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jacksforge, I agree about the animal
cruelty issue - all my cats are adopted
strays. No-kill animal shelters are starting
to appear all over the country as people
start to realize that the best way to
deal with feral cats is to fix and innoculate
them, and then to release them back
into the wild.
It takes a long time to change attitudes,
and to show people a better way.
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Mr Forge, put down the bottle.
In TexASS, it's true, we kill those who kill, and GW probably denied some quilty killer a reprieve, but he never killed an innocent.
Waco was President William Clinton and Ms. Janet Reno
And I applaud our sister state of Louisana, and thier Governor, where they're fighting the Supreme court to send pediphiles to death row.
Here, us TexASSens hate animal abusers, no, I don't think you understand, you can just go away here for animal abuse. No key.
We have a dairy (Schwepps) here that'll put up ten thousand dollars and Texans that add thier hard earned money, for information leading to the prosecution of any abuser, human or animal.
Hip hip horray for GW, as president, not stopping the execution of that soldier that killed, raped, and carved up women.
Cruel, not at all.
they find peace, when they die
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#80 Ed
"...I don't see much difference between US and UK on this. We all vote in the hope that, just maybe, the candidate(s) will actually try and achieve what they have promised, and they always promise plenty...."
QED, the "candidate(s)"....in the UK one is voting ostensibly for the party, not a candidate, who is 'leader' has already been decided. In the US one is voting for a personality, not a party.
I saw endless news clips of Clinton supporters, after her failed attempt, showing Clinton voters saying that they will not vote Obama, but vote for McC.
I cannot image a voter thinking..hmmm..shall i vote Brown or Cameron. They are poles apart politically. Its party versus party. Not candidate v candidate!
No need for the apology, your reply is very short compared to others!!!!
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#3 marygrav
The Obama-Christ comparison is a bit disturbing.
As to the trip's significance, does a quick trip across the isle really prove anything about his readiness to lead to country? This was a lengthy photo-op and little else (which his exclusion of foreign press makes pretty clear.) I guess that makes sense if he's running to be "America's Queen" as some have said. He's proven that he can smile nicely and seduce aunts (Who but the Germans would have a word for that?).
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Kecsmar,
The ballot papers have candidates names on them, and party affiliation is noted, but one votes for a person. Same as in USA.
Parties are an abomination and the chief impediment to true democracy
Peace and Love (Houb Salaam)
ed
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Daisy McCain
;-)
ed
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The problem with American healh insurance is that the pharmaceutical companies and doctors milk the system. There is also a high level of corruption. This leads to abnormally high insurance premiums.
Eventually health insurance will be extended to everyone which will only make the situation worse. What we have to do is eliminate health insurance as it presently exists, and start over again.
The NHS may have its faults, but it is animprovement over what we have in America. Three of my children were in school in England and were covered by NHS. Fortunately they were never seriously ill, but eyes and teeth were cared for expertly, and without delay.
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#85 Ed
"...The ballot papers have candidates names on them, and party affiliation is noted, but one votes for a person. Same as in USA...."
So you are saying Ron Paul is the same as McCain..?...both from the same party.
If that is what you believe then so be it.
The "face" has an influence, but in the UK a party has a face, whereas in the USA the face has a party. Subtle difference, but huge politically...
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Further to #87 above.
I forgot to mention that there is a healthy profit for those running the private system. That, of course, is added on to the premiums. And let's not forget the co-pay.
A person with a serious illness can wipe out the savings he has spent his life accumulating.
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The health industry in America is a scandal, not just the insurance part of it.
My wife owns a small business. She may or may not have a rare condition called Myasthinia Gravis.
After six months and thousands of dollars worth of MRIs and other tests, her neurologist has yet to schedule a follow up appointment.
We pay for it all in cash, because the insurance system is not geared to small businesses: our employees are covered but we're not.
The neurologist wants an additional four thousand dollars worth of tests before he will schedule a follow up appointment. That's six thousand dollars and counting, no diagnosis and no consultation.
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I have a feeling that far to many perceptions of the violence in American society are derived from TV and movies. Whilst most British crime TV series focus on the individuals and solving of the crime, their American counterparts seem more eager to portray the associated violence.
As for anti American sentiment, it's a world wide phenomena, based partly on jealousy and resentment and partly on the fact that the USAs tendency to act unilaterally in it's own interests whilst lecturing other countries about it being the paragon of freedom and democracy.
Unfortunately, far too many Americans abroad, come over as patronising and boistrous and this applies to Americans of all races. I currently live in South Africa and my black friends constantly joke about african americans who turn up in african costumes whilst the locals are in 2 piece suits sipping their Black Label whiskies. The final straw for them though is when americans refer to local black people as "african americans".
As for poor Obama, the guy has been on the stump for 6 months now with another 3 to go. Shaking hands is an automatic reaction that he probably does in sleep. What is amusing is that the working class journalists in England should be so outraged by such a simple gesture.
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This is totally off the point, but it really screws me up every time I think about it.
Our current president joined the Air National Guard, some say, to avoid fighting in Vietnam, yet he sends National Guardsmen to fight in Iraq for tour after tour after extended tour.
What a cynical, disloyal, and utterly immoral thing to do.
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Further to #87 and #89, Health care.
Some years ago, I went to a private doctor in England. The cost of the visit and tests were so low that I was shocked. And this was a fancy Harley Street doctor.
I should think that the existence of NHS tends to keep all medical costs reasonable.
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Actually, when a foreign head of state visits the United States, at the end of their trip they are escorted back to a helicopter or their plane and often times the motorcycle escort will line up and the guest shakes hands with all the policeman who helped protect him. I saw Gorbachev do it in Washington a few years back when he visited (while still in office), though it generally happens off camera.
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Kecsmar,
We'll just have to agree on having different perceptions. I have observed UK politics to become more personality-dominated over almost four decades. The two 'main' parties have become more like the US ones in that they overlap far more than they differ, and are both chiefly in the business of vote-chasing prostitution as opposed to convincing the electorate on matters of principle.
The chief difference is that the separation between legislative and executive power exists in USA, though somewhat eroded, and exists not at all in UK, the party with a 'majority', commanding both. In the USA, the "face" is determined quasi-democratically via primaries, in the UK, the "face" (party 'leader') is also determined according to quasi-democratic (intramural) process.
The contest here (UK) is mostly discussed in terms of the personalities of the party leaders, and at the moment Gordon Brown isn't having a very happy time. In Scotland, matters are being discussed to some extent in 'party' terms, but the (nationalist) Executive is led by a strong personality (Alex Salmond), while the largest 'opposition' party (London Labour) is in leaderless disarray, due to having no charismatic potential leaders and the fact that whoever gains the poisoned chalice will remain answerable to London...
You do have a point in that, if Gordon is turned out as Labour Leader, he will have to resign as Prime Minister, and the New Labour Leader will (without recourse to the general electorate) form a new government (executive), because he leads the 'majority' party.
While I warm to the idea of throwing out a non-performing executive branch, I don't like the idea of yet another Prime Minister who wasn't elected as such.
In sum, the USA could do with reform of the winner-takes-all electoral college, and the UK could do with the introduction of an element of proportional voting and perhaps also fixed-terms. In both cases, the new Scottish system is an improvement.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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90, Chicoan.
Did you know that if you don't have insurance you can bargain with your doctor. If this doctor is not amenable, try another. It works. I think, but am not absolutely sure, that you can also bargain with hospitals. Keep in mind that the insurance companies pay them a lot less than you do.
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What exactly does POTUS do? Apart from being able to veto a bill, he is dependent on congress to give him the budget for anything he wants to do. His only real power seems to be in foreign policy and he attains his position independantly of his party in an American Idols type campaign.
The fact that a presidential hopefull outlines his policies is no guarantee that congress will support them, so what's the point? I can understand the need for checks and balances, but surely the President needs to know that he has the backing of the majority in congress for his policies?
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jacksforge:
I have no idea what you are referring to regarding the abuse of animals. That is just weird. Pet owners in the US love their pets as much as those in Britain.
But why do I even have to say this? This is where anti-Americanism degenerates into sheer craziness.
Putting cats in boxes and blowing them up? Hunting them down and killing them? No - sorry to disappoint you, but that just doesn't happen.
Unbelievable. There is no way to fight this stuff.
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#95 - Ed Iglehart
Entirely agree about proportional representation but not about fixed terms. There is a lot to be said for being able to dump a head of government when he has become a lame duck rather than waiting 7.5 years and ensuring he is one.
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#96
Yes, thank you, and the charges are often cut in half if you pay cash in advance, as we do. This is because the doctors, all but one who have been very good, don't want to deal with the insurance companies either.
Even the company that owns the MRI machine agreed to a 50% reduction because we paid cash in advance, so that's not the problem, and it' not why I bring it up.
I bring it up because even after thousands spent, we can't get a consultation. We can handle it if a doctor says he/she doesn't have a diagnosis, but we think we have bought at least that much.
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Chicoan, what may be going on is that your
doctor is afraid of being sued. So, he has to
order every possible test before making a
diagnosis.
It's one reason why malpractice insurance
for MD's costs $180,000 a year in some states.
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Shaking Hands with a Bobby? Maybe Obama thought the man could vote in a US election. After all Obama is from Chicago where foreign nationals and even the dead vote.
Have pity on the man. He is clueless. No doubt, if elected he, like Clinton, will need tutoring on how to properly salute his military guard. Like Clinton, Obama too might not realize that his Marine guard, by not continuing to face the president after the salute, are following by-the-latter military protocal, but are in fact showing disrespect for the man. As the presidential Marine guards always face the commander-in-Chief "awaiting his orders". This is a long-standing tradition and won't be found in any regualtions or manuals. Shoud he be elected, it will be interesting to see if the Marine Guard show Obama the same letter- perfect courteous lack of respect they showed Clinton when he entered office.
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Threnodio,
A two-sided coin. We are treated to what is becoming a 24/7/365 state of campaign....Leadership has little time to actually lead, and opposition is continually on the watch for a potentially fatal 'gaffe'. Intra-party warfare is the norm,...the next General Election is either just around the corner or too far off to contemplate...with bloated and disproportionate 'majorities' it is as unlikely we'll be able to dump Brown (never mind for what) any easier than the USA can rid itself of dubya. At least he'll be gone in a few months.Fixed terms do have their merits, and we have by-elections to stir things up a bit, as recently in Glasgow East, for which see here.
Slainte!
ed
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#101
You're right about that.
The problem here is that the test itself has been called life-threatening by the Myasthinia Gravis Foundation and they have strongly advised my wife not to take it, yet it is still required before treatment will proceed.
The condition itself is tolerable as auto-immune conditions go, and we are not even sure that she has it. Even if she does, it's not nearly as bad as MS and other auto-immune diseases.
What should be a simple case of ruling something out and moving on, or recommending treatment, has been turned into an absurdity, and I'm sure it's not the doctor's fault.
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100, Chicoan.
I had a problem like that some years ago. My daughter had a "pediatric ailment of unknown etiology." I finally took her to a famous hospital that had a famous pediatric division. We had no insurance at the time.
After two visits I still could get no information from the doctor. In fact he was very hostile since I was not the patient, but my minor child was. (I guess the mother is the enemy, right?)
I reported him to the AMA which was stupid of me because the AMA is a union created to protect doctors. I also wrote to the head of pediatrics and the head of the hospital. No answers from anybody.
Ah, but the joy of having no insurance! I refused to pay and sent letters saying in essence "no information no money." Again no replies, but dunning letters either.
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All of this is beginning to sound a little bit like the Monty Python movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail. If you remember the scene where John Cleese attacks the castle with the wedding party singlehandedly. (I counted, twenty one were hacked to pieces by the time he was done. Can you imagine if the two guards were the two bobbies in front of Ten Downing Street, one eating the apple). The father of the groom says, "Let's not argue over who killed who and enjoy the celebration).
I am an Anglophile from childhood. My father has British colleagues visits to Britain, Masterpiece Theater, East Enders and Monty Python, Michael Palin's site http://www.palinstravels.co.uk.
My wife is an Anglophile and she is Boston Irish for goodness sake! (Read the history of the Boston neighborhood called South Boston or Southie to get an idea of why this is such a dichotomy).
For Oldnat. Glad you like our country. Most Americans are fascinated by foreigners. You are correct though. There are certain inner city neighborhoods, (Brownsville, in Brooklyn, Anacostia, in Washington, East Baltimore) where as a white man, you would have been strange. If the cops saw you there, they might throw you in the back of a squad car and take you to the precinct, because to them you would either be the world's dumbest tourist or there to buy drugs.
The locals might bother you, or conversely would think you there to buy drugs or might even be afraid of you thinking you were armed and they did not want to find out. For many in those neighborhoods, whites mean authority.
If you can get it, watch the four hour CNN series by Soledad O'Brien, Black in America.
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, but now live in Tucson. In some ways, it was like moving to another country.
I cannot disagree with the difficulties of American health care. I have heard from British friends some bad things about NHS, so it cuts both ways and no system is perfect. I have no first hand knowledge of the British system having been able to avoid illness in England.
I find, even with growing up with an international outlook, I am hunkering down more and more. Travel is becoming more expensive and more and more I see my corner as the Southwestern United States and Northwestern Mexico. We should take care of ourselves first.
I will leave you with something I tell folks all the time. If you know me and do not like me, fine. If you do not take the time to get to know me and still do not like me, whose fault is that.
I am glad Justin provides this forum. I will always keep an open mind here.
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Ed (#85), you correctly note that the UK and US are alike in voting for individual representatives of districts rather than for the party directly. I've long thought that this aspect of similarity between our electoral systems was more significant than the differences between the systems which are usually noted. What I find peculiar is that in the UK, with a very long tradition of stable government, there are nevertheless advocates of proportional representation (including, apparently, yourself), which is a cause of instability in some European nations. Why would anyone in the UK look to Italy, for example, for models of electoral "reform"?
I understand the Scottish Parliament has a partial form of proportional representation. How does this work?
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I don't know how it is in Britain, but in America politicians trying to get elected shake a lot of hands. I suspect that by this point in the campaign both McCain and Obama shake the hand of anyone standing in front of them out of reflex. If they made an appearance in a clothing store they would probably shake the hands of the mannequins.
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Being "pro-American" may be the "newest coolest thing" among middle aged servile foreign correspondents and their patrician patrons but it doesn't go down so well with the countless - and uncounted - victims of American arrogance and aggression around the world. The very real brutality of American predations near and far more than "puts off" people at home and abroad, it often puts out people's lives and limbs and enviornments in the deadly process. Many Europeans may indeed "approve" of American imperialism stretched across the planet, the Brown's and Berlusconi's and Merkel's and other junior accessories in America's crimes of state in pursuit of unchallenged global domination. But for the voiceless underclass at home, and worse still, in more desperate corners of American empire, "approval" is the furthest thing from their minds. For the hypsters and hipsters of America's PR spin machine and their foreign lackeys it's important to try and give American imperialism a 'makeover' and Obama Copacabana is their man of the moment. After all, if you're going to have cluster bombs or chemical weapons dumped on your heads by American invaders, or live under a savage occupation, doesn't it make you feel better to know it's being done by a black head of state and that some educated Europeans think that it's just ever so "new" and so "cool"?
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#109 proles
My, thats some strange Kool Aid you've been drinking.
Something originating in the US may be trying to take over the world, but its name is McDonald's.
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#105
Good for you allmymarbles. If health care is going to be, first and foremost, a business transaction, then all parties should be held to their part of the bargain; not just the patient.
Here in Butte County we actually went without an insurance provider of any kind for a number of months; no one, not even Blue Cross, was willing to do business here.
Doctors responded by forming health collectives. One doctor friend of mine who used to work for a doc-in-the-box now has his own subscription practice treating over two hundred patients.
The hard part for him was getting a self-insurance bond, but now he's thinking of taking on a partner.
There are alternatives to the insurance industry. We just have to make use of them.
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#111 above
I put that badly. He had to convince the State of California he wasn't becoming a health insurance provider. I have no idea why.
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"Though at the White House what would happen if someone tried to grasp the hand of that marine standing by the door? Might not end prettily, particularly if the grasper was a Middle Eastern head of state."
I don't know about Middle Eastern heads of State, but this retired Air Force officer got a salute and a handshake from a pair of guards at the start of the White House tour a couple of years ago. Most security types at such places are briefed on appropriate responses to just about any kind of visitors' actions.
American Neocons are reasonably livid at Senator Obama for not following their script. He was supposed to wander fecklessly through this trip, leaving a trail of blunders, gaffes, and assorted idiocy. Not that that was at all likely, but it seems to be endemic among "true believers" on either side of the political divide that they invent all sorts of terrible things about the opposition, and then believe their own invention.
Had Senator McCain's advisors had the collective acumen of a brain-damaged earthworm, they would not have given Senator Obama a reason to make this trip. Then again....
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oldnat #19
Camden Town? Cheltenham, surely.
Justin
You really have let us in for a lot of flak, all by yourself. Nobody in the press, TV or even workmates I asked later even noticed the handshake.
Seismic shudders indeed!
If it was GB shaking the hands of policemen or dustmen, that probably would be news, but not for this blog.
Ed #57
Two words - SPOILED VOTES. At least they didn't use that system in Glasgow East.
erm, can't remember who asked but the Scots are using single transferable votes in their elections for the Scottish parliament.
Can't say I agree with you over independence, Ed and presumably oldnat, but I like being part of a United Kingdom. Come the day I shall be campaigning on the other side.
O/T: UK is even more divided by a single language. Imagine Eastenders trying to understand The Patter, or Newcastlers in Wales. Thais in Bangkok understand all of them better than I do, whereas I get lots of practice learning how to understand American accents, if not American thinking.
If our ways of thinking as as varied as our accents in whichever country, thank goodness for that. It'd be so boring if we all thought the same.
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p.s. Ed #72 thanks for the tips.
On the other hand, am really disillusioned about politicos and their self serving about turns.
First we vote to keep Thatcher for all that time (to be fair to the woman, at least she stood up for her beliefs), then we do it again for Blair. We even managed to elect Major.
What is the matter with us?
And the point about PR is that although it gives minorities more of a voice, it runs the risk (as pointed out by others) of making it impossible to govern at all.
It is deeply depressing that we have no current UK politicians of real stature. Whatever you feel about McCain and Obama, they have both tried to show the potential for statesmanship.
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#98 TimothyR444 wrote "Putting cats in boxes and blowing them up? Hunting them down and killing them? No - sorry to disappoint you, but that just doesn't happen."
Don't be naive, it definitely happens, but it's not common, and maybe it is as uncommon as anywhere else (at least proportionately to the population size).
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MikeIL (102):
Fortunately for all concerned, the Marine Guard detachment at the White House and the various other honor guard units know better.
Whether or not you face the POTUS depends on a number of factors, in the same way that Secret Service protection personnel very seldom look at the person/people they are protecting, depending on your particular role.
The President, in his/her "additional duty" as "Commander in Chief of the Army, Navy and Militia" is a civilian. Civilians do not return salutes. The whole business of the POTUS returning salutes is very recent, and is not any form of long tradition. As the VIP passes, you (as an individual or a group) render a hand salute (or present arms, as appropriate) and hold it until the VIP passes. Then the salute is dropped and you return to the position on attention. It ain't rocket science.
I was in a position to observe the behavior of military personnel during the Clinton Administration, and there was no difference than with later administrations. In the same manner, I did not notice any differences in how RAF honor guard personnel behaved to the Prime Minister or to MP's of differing parties.
To suggest that members of the military filter their behavior through some kind of ideological lens is an affront to military professionals. It's like the Jesse Helms archetypal redneck "Clinton needs a bodyguard in my state" trash.
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111, Chicoan.
A couple of anecdotes you might appreciate, both clarifying that a visit to the doctor is a business transaction.
My eldest daughter, probably about 21 at the time, went to the doctor. He introduced himself by saying, "How do you do Mary, I'm doctor Smith." She replied, "How do you do Michael, I'm Miss Jones."
My youngest daughter had to have a medical checkup as a requirement for the start of highschool. As it was not important I had her go on her own.
When she arrived for her appointment she told the doctor that she needed him to sign off that day since school was about to begin and she couldn't be admitted without it.
It was the nurse she spent most of the time with. The doctor just gave her a cursury once-over, and that was that (hardly worth the money).
She then handed him the slip to sign. He said he was too busy. She reminded him that he had said he would. He got rather nasty, letting her know just how important he was.
So she stood up straight, looked him in the eye, and told him she was a dissatisfied customer. She also said that her mother was not going to pay him.
I am proud of my kiddies. And no, I did not pay him. No tickee, no washee.
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ArgyllJenny,
There were similar comments made when Scotland embarked upon its present adventure with minority government. "they'll be unable to get anything done," etc., and my response was that less law was better than lots of bad and ill-considered law as witnessed in successive 'majority' governments, much of it ham-fistedly dismantling the partisan efforts of the previous lot.We do, of course, have a Scottish one in Wee Eck. ;-)Gary, I have to admit I don't fully understand it, but it has provided a very interesting mix of party representation. You might find enlightenment here, or simply confusion.
Jenny, Which bit of beautiful Argyll?
Slainte
ed
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I'm sorry Justin, but I have to do this.
Yo Prole, where you from?
You are the example I give of not bothering to know me and already hating me. Thank you for providing me with that example.
Allmymarbles, I am proud of your daughters and standing up to the doctors.
And this thing about a handshake has shaken loose all SORTS of things.
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#95Ed,
Whilst i do agree that the parties have become blurred somewhat over recent years, this is because of spin. Blair realized that the normal policies of labour had to be 'spun' into a way that wasn't recognised for what it was. He was very good at doing this coupled with a much weaker and deflated opposition, he was also able to take ground which normally Labour would not succeed in; which is where the mess is. His success was down to his very chummy and well honed presentation couple with a sharp quick brain and of course the spin. However, the "morning after" took a while to kick in but soon everyone started to realise that they were "cheated" in the sell....Tax has increased significantly under Labour, no change there then!
The usual differences between the two parties is now slowly resuming normal service.
Cameron has taken some of Blair's formula and used it for his own, but, still with a very different approach since he is Conservative; because he is conservative and Gordon is also going back to grass roots, Labour. There is now less blurring that existed in the previous 10 years
When i vote, look at the manifesto to see what they propose (whether they can achieve it is irrelevant). I vote for what I agree with. I don't want a Govt that is voted in and can't bring a policy forward and/or make it into law because of a hung parliament. OR in your case PR. PR is a total mess and is dreamed up by whinging candidates that get no votes in an election and want a "piece of the action"....this is not dissimilar to the US system, which is why there are so many compromises and watered down deals to try and satisfy everyone. It also is a recipe for corruption.
"....While I warm to the idea of throwing out a non-performing executive branch, I don't like the idea of yet another Prime Minister who wasn't elected as such...."
Gordon was elected as an MP. He was selected/chosen/elected as the party leader, by those that were elected by the people. He has tweaked some policies, but he is still carrying out Blair's/Labours manifesto. The face may change, but the message remains...albeit with different presentation skills!
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The main advantage of a constituency based system which both the UK and USA effectively has is that it's a good balance between personality and party. In South Africa we have a PR system, which was adopted to allay white fears of being overwhelmed by pure numbers. The problem is that MPs are only loyal to their party as the voter has no say in the selection of an individual MP. At least in the UK and USA the voter can say to their MP, "I like what you've done locally, but your parties national policies stink, so I'm not voting for you in the next election". This, at least creates tension between the representative and their party as it's in neithers interest to lose the seat.
Under PR the dynamic is rather different as popularity within the party is more important than popularity with the voters,
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Ed #119
Bute.
Can't believe I put "Parliament" when I should have put "Councils" - apologies to all.
PR (in the form which we have in local council elections) is a system which takes some time to have its full effect.
It can lead to a more equable representation of the voters' wishes.
It can also encourage single-issue candidates, which may be useful in the short term but isn't conducive in longer term planning at any level.
That said, on the Scots Parliament elections: as a long-time supporter of a certain minority party, I can't complain now I've got what I wished for. Neither can the party, although the new system got it chucked out of this constituency.
And there was I, thinking that at last my vote would count.
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Kecsmar,
More like parties which get 22% of the vote and less than 10% of the seats....(2005 results) And that set of results is less DIS-proportionate than has often been the case.I still reckon distance has imparted a rosy glow to your view, but perhaps suffering the poll tax's imposition upon a Scottish electorate by a party with almost non-existent representation in Scotland (among other "anomalies") has given my view a tint of excrement....
Personally, I cannot identify any leading individual in either of the "terrible twins" (Lab/Con) who comes across as committed to anything beyond getting or staying "in power". Amongst the "whingers", there are actually quite a few, and amongst the smaller Scottish parties (and the SNP), plenty, as well as some purely self-servers - what else is new?
Slainte
ed
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Jenny,
I, too, was sad to lose the half-dozen Trots and most of the Greens in the last wash. I hope we see the return of a nice mixed salad, once the independence issue is decided (one way or another).
I do hope we never see "majority" government again in Scotland. As stated previously, I find the idea of relatively little legislation, tempered by the need to achieve a consensus issue-by-issue, far more attractive than masses of dogma-driven partisan legislation, whipped through by a party representing (as noted above) one third of those voting.
A case in point - Blair's first massive majority (an opportunity for real change?) wasted years on the trivial and divisive matter of fox-hunting.
Bute is indeed beautiful. I have excellent friends in Tighnabruaich and Caladh, with whom we visited Johnny Dumfries' wee bit last summer (and stopped for a bacon buttie at Zafaroni's). I enjoyed the trees, while my wife did the indoor tour...I wouldn't mind being a gardener on that wee bit.
Slainte
ed
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#124Ed
Not sure what criterion you are using when you say "...I still reckon distance has imparted a rosy glow to your view..." and how this affects my opinion..???
However,
"...but perhaps suffering the poll tax's imposition upon a Scottish electorate by a party with almost non-existent representation in Scotland (among other "anomalies") has given my view a tint of excrement...." Is this the same as Scottish MPs voting in Parliament on English issues?...Same for both sides!
"....More like parties which get 22% of the vote and less than 10% of the seats.." I rest my case m'lud! QED.
"...Personally, I cannot identify any leading individual in either of the "terrible twins"..."
Just because you cannot identify with any one of the leaders or their charisma or otherwise, doesn't mean others do not nor does it mean that the "leader" is anything other than just the face. How strong that 'face' is, is a personal opinion and does not affect what the manifesto says for each party...irrespective of the leader/face!
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Kecsmar,
As to distance, I was under th impression you were presently in Japan. As to Scottish votes on English matters, I concur, and feel it supports my cynicism, and I didn't say "identify WITH", but "identify".
As I understand any disagreement we may have, it subsists in some idea that one system is better or more democratically accountable/responsive than the other. You seem to favour the British, and I contend that any differences are far outweighed by the failures of both.
I do have some hopes for Scotland, the venue in which the "sovereignty of the people" was expressed in the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 CE
Slainte
ed
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#127 Ed
I am indeed in Japan...but you still haven't answered my question..what is your criterion for the assertion that my view is via a myopic rosy glow?
As for different systems...i think we'll just agree to disagree on which is preferable...oh hail the democracy!
;)
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Kecsmar,
That you persist in the belief that party manifestos represent anything more than marketing exercises, and seem to believe UK politics is less personality-driven than those in the USA.As to myopia, the distance requires hyperopia....
Slainte
ed
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#129 Ed
Your reply has nothing to do with my distance. Your criterion is based purely upon my own personal position, nowt to do with how far I may or may not be from the UK.
It is just my own personal view.
Just as is yours...your relative distance and your personal opinion.
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82. At 3:55pm on 29 Jul 2008, DougTexan wrote:
Mr Forge, put down the bottle.
In TexASS, it's true, we kill those who kill, and GW probably denied some quilty killer a reprieve, but he never killed an innocent.
Waco was President William Clinton and Ms. Janet Reno
And I applaud our sister state of Louisana, and thier Governor, where they're fighting the Supreme court to send pediphiles to death row.
Here, us TexASSens hate animal abusers, no, I don't think you understand, you can just go away here for animal abuse. No key.
We have a dairy (Schwepps) here that'll put up ten thousand dollars and Texans that add thier hard earned money, for information leading to the prosecution of any abuser, human or animal.
Hip hip horray for GW, as president, not stopping the execution of that soldier that killed, raped, and carved up women.
Cruel, not at all.
they find peace, when they die""
you make my point quite well
doug.
"In TexASS, it's true, we kill those who kill, and GW probably denied some quilty killer a reprieve, but he never killed an innocent. "
it is a brutal mind set that believes this, many innocents have died in texASS jails.
you just chose to ignore them .that is brutal
"And I applaud our sister state of Louisana, and thier Governor, where they're fighting the Supreme court to send pediphiles to death row."
brutal to WANT death row
"they find peace, when they die"
more brutal american attitude from someone who promotes himself as reasonable and peaceful.
texASS. what a land of murderers.
the state murders.
death penalty is murder.
and your cops are not so great that they can be trusted with someone elses LIFE.
get real tex
go look at the decisions GW made look at the otherside.the non texASS side
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however doug you had to throw the olive branch to the wind.
a texas trait maybe?
sorry to insult texASS but ,
they were famous for JR now it is GW. funny really they were both into oil.
But I did say most americans would feed the stray and not harm it.
I can see that would be you.
good on you.
nice of the charity.
the UK has some brutal people to. they stab at bars and beat people up and harm animals, yes.
I do not deny that. I am just saying I have heard way more , here in the states , in 7 years than ever in th UK nad it is because it is more prevalent ,IN MY OPINION.
sorry to feel that way,really.
Death penalty is murder.
WRONG That is my OPINION.
glad to feel that way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Justin:
shaking hands is part of being, a gentleman!
~Dennis Junior~
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