My British colleague Toby Harnden has been digging into the Obama plans for a relaxing summer by the beach and come up with this very American European/Middle East tour.
What's the betting he's in each destination for no more than a day. But there'll be much excitement in the UK no doubt and perhaps even a re-vivification of the rather moribund-looking England for Obama site.
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American voters are funny. Obama's popularity abroad is likely to be a liability in November. Even though Americans ended up disliking the incumbent for many of the same reasons that the rest of the world does, they tend not to think about it in those terms. For a time, including '04, Bush's unpopularity overseas played well in the polls (and it still does with a significant portion of the electorate.)
This election is all Obama's, but so were the historic 2002 midterms the Democrats'. (They lost in '02.) A big mistake could easily change things. I can imagine how wildly cheering foreign rallies for Obama would play on McCain commercials.
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Obama should visit troubled spots in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Latin America, but he should avoid too much adulation in places like Europe, or praise from Arab leaders as that would doom his chances of winning in November. When it comes to politics, we are very insular and not only do we dismiss foreign opinion, we adamantly object to any interferrence in our electoral process, regardless of how trivial or meaningless it may be. Obama's summer marathon should be portrayed as a learning experience, not a victory lap in foreign lands.
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The beaches of California, Florida, and Texas would be best for Obama to schmooze with undecided and independent voters, rather than cozying up to foreigners on distant shores.
If he really wants to go over seas before the November election he should spend some time among American troops deployed over seas, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan. The down side to that there won't be sunbathing on the beach.
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Obama visiting the UK, Europe and the Middle East is a wonderful idea, helping our image abroad. It does matter what the rest of the world thinks, and his willingness to listen to other viewpoints will be key to distinguishing him from his opponent in November.
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re: #1 and 2 above
Very good points about US attitudes about foreign influences.
Most Americans feel that we have every right to exert our influence on foreign political processes, ranging from Washington personages publicly (but, of course, unofficially) endorsing some candidates over others to CIA assisted political "dirty tricks". We (as a nation) are even shocked to hear others criticize what we see as our inherent right to meddle in foreign political processes, yet we see _any_ foreign influence (whether intentional or not) on our electoral process as egregious sins.
(Note: I'm not referring in this post to our views on our "right" to effect "regime changes" militarily, etc., which is a subject more appropriate to another blog topic, perhaps.)
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I think that Americans want our image, as presented by our leaders, to be a positive one but I agree that Obama has to be careful not to look as though he is running for president of the world!
We've had enough of that kind of arrogance in GW, the warmonger.
Thanks to jacksforge for reference to Moyers Journal of 6/27 in post #39 (waiting for the kiss). I looked it up. Very true!
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I agree with the above posters. Outside of
a thin crust, Americans are some of the
most culturally isolated people in the
English-speaking world. It's not that
we're hostile to the rest of the world,
we just don't even know that it exists
sometimes.
BTW, I'd like to know what the eastern
Europeans think of McCain vs Obama.
I'll bet they lean towards McCain.
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gunsandreligion (7)
How true! Especially, since we allow our media to practically ignore the rest of the world. This is why I turn to the BBC for info. (NPR and PBS do a somewhat better job of world coverage than our other networks but they need a lot of improvement.)
Also, I read that Russians prefer McCain so Eastern Europeans may like him too.
Consider this, we are even culturally isolated among ourselves.
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An Europe/Middle-East tour will improve Obama's image abroad very little. He already is the most popular American presidential candidate in Europe and the Middle-East. Even religious Europeans and Muslims/Arab Christians lean towards Obama. He represents the United States people can love and admire again.
However, a foreign tour will improve Obama's foreign policy experience, which he lacks on the moment.
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wow Don't know what to write so many of you make so much sense.
I'll wait I'm sure the crazies will be here soon.
oh there he is
posts 1245678 gerat
3 funny how all the gop are "like Obama should go to iraq afgan- and if he does.
why is he shmoozing.
He's a green minded guy why travel there and not stop in europe on the way.
your welcome aqua girl.
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re: #7 gunsandreligion
"BTW, I'd like to know what the eastern
Europeans think of McCain vs Obama.
I'll bet they lean towards McCain."
From what I've been able to gather, there doesn't seem to be a common view in the populations of those countries. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, most see the EU and Russia as more important to their future than the US.
In former Soviet but currently independent states, there is still an undercurrent of nervousness about Russia trying to regain some semblance of control, so I would expect them to favor McCain for his more hawkish militarism. In most of the former Iron Curtain countries, the concern about Russia is much less, especially since EU accession, so I would expect their leaning for a pugnacious US president to be less, although I wouldn't hazard a guess about a quantitative preference between the two.
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1245678 and 9 gerat must be small rodent ,
but great is what your comments were
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Obama.
Does need to take a world trip this summer!
He need to do some very deep thinking about policy.
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goodman37
Of course, Obama has to make some effort toward visiting the rest of the world or he will be accused of insulation, isolation and inexperience in foreign relations. I am sure he will be doing some "very deep thinking." Whatever you may feel about this man, stupid he IS NOT!
There is nothing like a little travel to broaden the horizons and give one something to think about. Someone mentioned Africa and Asia. I hope he will go to Africa. I know his father was Kenyan. What is happening in Zimbabwe right now is heart-breaking. The suffering of the people there is terrible. Also in Myanmar (Burma.)
Any time we Americans want to whine about things here all we have to do is open our eyes to what is happening in many parts of the world. I give thanks every day that my parents came to America!
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Americans may be "insular" -- or they may just be tired of America-bashing. It has become quite tiresome.
After all, not only do we have to listen to it, we also have to refrain from commenting on it; otherwise, we're called "arrogant".
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andreainny
Criticism is always hard to take, deserved or undeserved. We often do appear 'arrogant' even when we don't mean to be. It's because we are brash, out-spoken, contentious and sometimes rude.
It has been difficult to be an American visiting abroad during these last eight years. I've taken some 'hits' for Bush's policies and comments. All I could say was: I was and am opposed to the war in Iraq, that I didn't vote for Bush and totally disagreed with him in practically every way.
Despite our "insular" ways, at heart, the vast majority of Americans are kind, caring, and do want to respect and have the respect of people in other countries.
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re: #15 AndreainNY
I'd be interested to know precisely what you mean by "America-bashing".
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I hope Obama has time to relive the pub crawl he went on when he last came to the UK.
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peterm99
So would I! Actually, I find this site more positive to Americans than I would have anticipated.
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I have to add that I thought there was a great deal of restraint when our collective fangs were practically dripping during the "Gun Crazy" blog.
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What do I mean by America-bashing? Let's get you educated!
First, read the comments at the BBC's Have Your Say. Almost every question leads to a great many comments blaming President Bush and/or American greed for whatever issue is the topic of the day.
For example, all killing in the Middle East can be traced to the US' sale of weapons, its support of dictators and its hegemony. It doesn't matter that Middle Easterners have been killing each other for centuries, asking the US for military support for decades and were railing against Westerners long before a Bush became president.
It's not prominent on this forum. And, thankfully, the media has returned its focus to the rest of the world, which makes America's problems look minor.
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Andrea (#21):
I worked with Americans in a Muslim country for a year, perhaps the single most happy year of my life. I developed an understanding and respect for both Americans and for Islam which can only come from experiencing them close up.
Many Americans think that George has been the worst President that you have had in living memory. I am certainly left breathless by the arrogance of a man who spent 90% of his term pursuing policies which have had the effect of alienating ordinary people in the Islamic world - turning distrust into outright hatred - and then thinks he can make everything alright in his last months by "bringing" peace between Israel and Palestine, as if what is now happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is simply a tragic accident: "Oops!" This is a form of deathbed repentance of the most naive kind.
Americans are not alone in being largely ignorant of what is really going on in parts of the world where the consequences of her country's actions have had a profound effect - the British, too, suffer from this characteristic, as I am sure many other Westerners do too. And many Westerners think they can understand foreign parts as holidaymakers, "doing" countries as tourists in days or weeks. I wonder how many ordinary people, for example, Obama will get to know in his own grand tour of foreign climes - a far cry from his brother-in-law's stag night in Wokingham, Surry (that's little old England!) some ten years back!
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re: #21 AndreainNY
I, too, have looked into Have Your Say once or twice, and I find no reason to disagree with you. However, the examples you cite only serve to show that the US does not have a monopoly on people who seem to form opinions based on sound bites or simplistic slogans, rather than reflection and a good grasp of the big picture, and who like to spout off in public fora.
No observant person can deny that the US and Americans have done much to attract criticism. It can be argued that (warning: generalization ahead) the US often tends to take precipitous actions, is arrogant about the righteousness of the actions, disdainful when questioned, belligerent when criticized, and, often, vindictive when opposed. It is likely that our superiority to other nations in terms of wealth and strength affects our national ego and influences us to display those traits that others often find offensive. To make things even worse, it is inarguable that, as a nation, we are extremely hypocritical in many of our actions, and, being a superpower, our actions are more apparent to the rest of the world than those of most other countries.
There are many reasons for the presence of "America-bashing", as you call it (I prefer to call them "critical comments"). Some of them are due to a misapprehension of facts or circumstances; ; some are legitimate questions seeking answers that may not be obvious from a foreign perspective; some are due to a legitimate criticism of our behavior, or viewpoint, or culture, or whatever; some are just honest differences of opinion; and, some are due to simple hostility to all things American, meanness and/or incivility (although on this blog, those are in the minority most of the time).
You have chosen to read and comment on the BBC blog, knowing full well that it is a foreign blog, and, therefore, is likely to have a larger share of comments and viewpoints critical of the US (of course, it is not just foreigners who offer critical comments). There are many American blogs where the view which predominates is that the US is nearly perfect and can do little wrong. I think, however, that you would find the discussions there a lot less interesting and educational than here.
I would suggest that the proper response to critical comments is to provide people with facts they may not have, correct erroneous assumptions/conclusions, and/or to discuss (preferably objective) reasons why you feel they are in error. If they are not in error, but still critical, it's hardly fair to call it "bashing". Obviously, there are some posts that do not merit any response. In any event, complaining about "America bashing" is hardly productive.
But, hey, it's Saturday! Put your feet up, pop open a brew, relax and enjoy the evening! Then you'll be refreshed and better prepared to take on those with views opposed to yours with even greater vigor next week. I'm certain they will still be here (and I include myself, since we've differed here a few times).
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sitting in the hammock i , would agree.
boom shanka
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About the whole "America-Bashing" thing...
There are some people who will always be
America-bashers. The French, for example,
will always be trying to kick us off the world
stage, because they don't know what to
do about us. We promote the English language,
and that is a direct threat to them. (I'm
not sure why, but perhaps because France
was basically defined by its conflicts with
England over the first 700 years of its
existence.)
But, we could do a better job of trying
to understand the rest of the world.
We more or less got dragged into this
whole superpower thing, at heart we
are really isolationists. If you have any
doubt about that, watch what happens
over the next 4-8 years after Iraq.
We could do a little better if we just got
established a few ground rules. For example,
1. Our leadership should be able to pronounce
the name of any country that we intend to
attack or invade properly. This rules out
Iran as the next target.
2. We should spend at least as much money
figuring out how to be self-sufficient in
energy and raw materials as we do on
our armed forces. Perhaps we could even
set aside enough money to ensure that
our young people are getting the education
that they need to compete on the world
stage.
3. We should realize that any trade deal
that we sign probably messes with (I
won't use the real term here) our
middle class and works to their disadvantage.
All one has to do to verify this is to look
at the fine print in our tax code.
The next time we negotiate a trade deal
with anybody, we should do what they
do with us, hire lobbyists in their country and
pay the ruling party off.
4. When we appoint an ambassador to
some important ally, we should pick the
person based on merit, and not how effective
he was as a campaign worker.
5. We should teach some basic geography
and geo-politics to our young folks as
part of their education. If we're going to
be sending them to die for something,
they ought to at least know where we
are sending them.
6. Before we obliterate some place,
we should send the vice president there
with an olive branch, just so that he
has some sympathy for the local folks.
The olive branch does not have to actually
have any olives on it (since it will undoubtedly
have been picked clean by special interests).
7. We should make the president read
the New York Times at least once a week,
just so that he knows what is going on.
8. We should get back into the business
of selling weapons to both sides of every
conflict. We pay our oil bill somehow, and
everybody knows our cars aren't very
good, so what else can we do.
9. We should make the rest of the world
pay us NOT to make biofuels from corn
grain. It would save them money, and
our farmers are used to being paid not
to grow stuff anyway. (I know it sounds
crazy, but you can look it up.)
10. We should have regular broadcasts
(repeated on youtube) of scenes from
Dr. Strangelove with Peter Sellers as
president, with voice-overs of him saying
things that are relevant today. People
would believe him more than Bush.
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Obama is all fluff and no substance he running on a sound bite of change and capitalizing on Americas and the worlds full blown hatred of Bush when will the voting public start doing their own research on him and realize how wrong he will be as a President.If he is elected it will lay the groundwork for the third party to elect someone just for the fact that both mainstream parties let america down
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re: #25 gunsandreligion
(I may comment on some of your other stuff later, but I'll just stick to one topic for this post.) (Warning: lots of oversimplification follows.)
The French are not our most fervent admirers but they have many reasons, some good, some not quite as good, and some apparently nonsensical. I will only mention one good reason in skeletal form, as any real discussion of this would be horrendously long.
Consider that the French went out of their way, and at no little risk to themselves, to assist us during the Revolutionary War when they could just as well have left us to our own devices against the British. After all, we were tying up a not insignificant amount of British forces and causing the Brits to expend significant naval power to keep those forces supplied, to transport their troops all around the colonies, and to implement blockades of various cities. The French could have used the forces they sent to help us probably to better advantage in the constant European contentions during that time frame. They sold us the Louisiana Purchase, rather than to someone else and without making us fight for it (although the sale was advantageous to them, as well.) Yet, when they could have used some help in the Napoleonic Wars, we ignored them. We warred with the British during the War of 1812, but that was almost an insignificant sideshow for the Brits compared to their war with the French during that time. Later, we again gave them no assistance during their war in Mexico. During the Civil War, the British aided the Confederacy. We gave the French no assistance during their years of tension with Germany including when they got their clocks cleaned during the Franco-Prussian war. We didn't enter WWI until well after France had been economically devastated and had lost nearly a million soldiers; even so, our entry was to join the Entente, and not to assist France specifically. We totally ignored the French following their defeat by the Germans in WWII. Even when we entered the war, it was obvious that we entered to help England and the Soviets to defeat Germany (in Europe): France just happened to be on the way to Berlin and was considered merely as a means to an end, not as a reason for entering the war. Sure, we helped France after the war via the Marshall plan, but, again, only as an adjunct. Later, we were more friendly with the British, and treated the French with such disdain that DeGaulle felt that to maintain some semblance of French honor, he had to withdraw from the NATO military alliance and develop his own Force de Frappe. Again, when they were trying to hold onto their Indochinese colonies and asked for our assistance, we told them to go fly a kite. Even in the relatively recent past, it's been obvious that we consider Germany the country more important to deal with on the continent than France.
Look at all this from their point of view: Including the Revolutionary war, we have been actively opposed (i.e., militarily and/or economically) by the British three times, versus zero times by the French. The Brits were even a common enemy twice. Yet, we consider the Brits our primary European friends, not the French. Sacrebleu, what infidelity! It was the French who were the prime reason for our victory at Yorktown. Without them, our very existence might have been questionable. In spite of this, we have never come to the aid of the French directly, i.e., not in an adjunctive manner, throughout our history, even when they explicitly requested our help. Zut alors, what perfidy!
If looked at in this manner, the less than overwhelming warmth of feeling is entirely understandable and, in my view, not unjustified. Of course, we in the US tend not to look at things from a foreign point of view.
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G'nR,
11. We should BUY all the opium the Afghan farmers can grow at a price slightly above that they get from the warlords. It would save us considerable blood and treasure and keep the medical establishment well supplied. Any surplus can be destroyed or doled out to addicts, thus saving on the petty and organised crime fronts.
Peter,
Well said regarding the French, though I agree with LBJ's refusal to bail them out at Dien Bien Phu. If only we were as resistant now to unilateral action!
Salaam, etc.
ed
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pterm99, as you said, your remarks were
simplified, so here are some more facts
to consider:
It was the French Monarchy that helped us
in our revolution. Of course, helping us
did not help their accounts, and they
went bankrupt, which was one of the
reasons why their revolution occurred.
Based on the methods of capital punishment
used at the time, it would seem that
the French people were happy to get
rid of the monarchy, at least when the
cake ran out.
After Napoleon came to power, he realized
that he could not enforce his claims in the
New World, which is one of the reasons
why he sold the Louisiana territory.
Another reason was that he considered
it, and the rest of North America worthless,
which was also why the British did not
continue to fight to hold it.
As far as us entering the war against
Britain, we were just a tyke of a nation
with a sum total of 6 capital ships, and
the Europeans considered us a minor
player. The only reason that we declared
war on England was that they insisted
on impressing our sailors into their naval
service, a treatment even worse than
afforded to us by our airlines today.
At least they got a ration of grog, we
have to pay for ours.
The English, having disposed of the French,
thought that it would be great sport to
land at a few places on the Atlantic coast,
and teach the local residents better manners.
They succeeded in burning the White House,
primarily because local congressmen
appeared at various points in the battle
and countermanded army officers' orders,
thus ensuring defeat.
Then the British fleet sailed down to
New Orleans to seize the cotton crop,
but of course, we know what happened there.
The French, of course, were nowhere to
be found.
As far as the 19th century goes, that
was such a confused mess in Europe
that the only sustained diplomatic
alignment was the "great game" between
the British and the Russians, which
is something that we had better study.
The main reason we entered WWI on
the side of the Entente was the Zimmerman
telegram, so thoughtfully provided by
or British friends who had access to the
transatlantic cable. Otherwise, we might
have remained neutral, as there were
many Americans of German and Irish
descent who were opposed to our becoming
involved. (France is not the only country
in Europe, as you are surely aware!)
As far as WWII goes, who knows what
would have happened if the Japanese
had not attacked Pearl Harbor? Roosevelt
was doing everything he could up to that
point to get Hitler to declare war on us,
but in vain.
As far as DeGaulle goes, I'll have to check
Eisenhower's memoirs on that point. My
vague recollection is that he was a difficult
person to deal with considering how little
he was able to bring to the table.
As for IndoChina, I say "let Saigons be
by-gones". That was another horrible
mess that we got sucked into. We either
should have used the bomb at DienBienFu,
as the French requested, or perhaps later,
or even better, never have gotten involved.
Fortunately, things turned out O.K. after
we were driven out (not that we seem to
be able to learn from other countries' errors),
and Vietnam and China were at war with
each other shortly after we left.
As far as the French pulling out of NATO,
we should make them pay to get back in.
At the very least we should make them
send us an annual alotment of foie gras,
not that I partake.
Notwithstanding all of this, I am actually
a great fan of the French, and any derogatory
remarks that I make here are only in jest.
I just hope that Walmart and Cosco don't
pave over their sacred burial grounds and
monuments with shopping centers.
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Ed, I agree about the opium, and the
point has been made to our obtuse state
department by several press organizations,
but they refuse to poke their heads out
of the ground.
Which reinforces the point that we always
try the most obtusely stupid strategy first
and flail about miserably before advancing
triumphantly to the next most stupid strategy.
I wonder what's next for Afghanistan?
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Justin
Can you please explain why the BBC hates America so much ?? Its always so hyperly critical of America, unlike the 40's, 50's 60's and 70's when Britain and America were best friends in both directions.
Katty Kay constantly has a selfserving sly smirk on her face whenever she is presenting the ubitquitous Hate America story and it rises to almost a schrill when its the essential HATE BUSH Copy she is reading.
As you know Katty is the selfserving Schill for the Int'l view on other channel's talk shows where her presence is mandatory to remind us how much the rest of the World Hates America, especially BUSH !!!
I always feel so saddened when I see the BBC help fuel the propaganda that America is "BAD in the World" as I worked and lived in the UK for a number of years, and was always warmly welcomed in pub after pub !!
Yet the BBC is constantly and forever, on a reflex reaction that in the 21st century all America is terrible, wrong, and bad !!
How sad and shameful, to have this treatment to your closest friend.
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The BBC doesn't hate America, they try and organise jollies there whenever they can get away with it - which is quite often.
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Reporting both sides of an issue does not constitute "bashing" or, in this case, anti-Americanism. The BBC is one of a few remaining unbiased media outlets devoted to broadcasting the news, rather than making them or shaping them to fit their ideological convictions. Unfortunately, instead of listening and reflecting on the opinions expressed by others we tend to overreact and become defensive, which more often than not make us look like spoiled brats having tantrums. The BBC does not prevent us from expressing our views, and there is nothing that keep us from switching to FOX News for a more partisan infusion of one-sided ideology.
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Well I hope the readers listen to Obama's views. The media including Justin has potrayed him as a combination of King, Kennedey, Lincoln and Ghandi.
What will you may see in an inexperienced liberal idealougue from chicago ward politics.
I urge you to ignore the press and reach your own conclusions.
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The current occupant of the White House had experience running a failed baseball team, a mediocre oil business, and as Governor of Texas. Aside from an inarticulate pitch, lucrative contracts to the oil industry, and being able to boast for having the highest rate of summary executions during his tenure as governor, what has that experience done for our country? We need a President with a vision, honest, well educated, committed to improve the standard of living of the middle class and the poor, and willing to listen and talk to both friends and opponents, not a sequel to our current calamity.
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25 GnR nice one.
Comment on the ambassador selection.
How about getting rid of "political appointees".
The ever greater and brilliant (lol winding up you know who) UK has few political appointed ambassadors .
It does have the Foreign and Commonwealth office.
they are civil servants. career diplomats not campaign lackys .
This I see as one of the biggest problems in US politics.As well as a HUGE waste of dosh we do not have.
The career state department diplomats have a better record of understanding what's going on than these political appointed hacks.
All american politics rely on these appointees.
the attorney general selection scandal showed GW taking this inappropriate selection further than he should have which may not have been as easy if all appointments were left to those in the department they worked not some president who suddenly decides to go against the laws of his land.
America does have real diplomats, unfortunately this president(as most others) prefer their friends to be looking after the embassy when they arrive abroad.
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35 well said.
so few seem to remember the appaling record of death GW left in texas.
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26. At 06:08am on 29 Jun 2008, TexasPatriot67 wrote:
Obama is all fluff and no substance he running on a sound bite of change and capitalizing on Americas and the worlds full blown hatred of Bush when will the voting public start doing their own research on him and realize how wrong he will be as a President.If he is elected it will lay the groundwork for the third party to elect someone just for the fact that both mainstream parties let america down
and if he doesn't win it will lay the groundwork for the third party to elect someone just for the fact both mainstream parties let america down.
The use of racism in the primary elections was dispicable and will be the reason the dems loose (if that is possible).
and I wish to be very clear the racism that was promoted by Hillary's campaign.
And I will not accept that those who believe in Obama are doing it for guilty white conscience or any other reason .
I vote for him and have no guilt.(on race)
who did you vote for last time?
this is the question all americans should answer before they join this debate, because if you voted for that man of dubious substance, the war starter, Global Warming himself, then you opinion of who is fit to run this country is not worth anything.
If you as adrieanny think attacking Bush is wrong then you are seriously deluded.
And if all you have to say about obama is ,you don't trust him, he's inexperienced , then I would ask america how come this NEVER mattered before. especially with the homicidal maniac america voted in for a second time.
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Ed and G n R 28,30
just to agree with you on the opium sales but to go a little futher the Traditional crop in afganistan was not opium but Hashish which is more illegal than Opium(there is no legal industry to sell it to)
.
This is where they were before the americans encouraged Opium to destabalise the russian army.
Mods I am not condoning or encouraging any illegal activity just pointing out how it was
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There's a difference between how us foreigners feel about individual Americans, and how we think and feel about the policies of the USA. (Same generally applies for other countries such as France, too)
I've been fortunate enough to have extended visits to the USA several times, and found people there kind, generous, courteous, intelligent and warm. I was shaken though, to find how many genuinely knew very little about current affairs, geography or economics outside their own state, let alone outside the US. This even applied to people active in international businesses.
On the other hand, many UK citizens are even more insular - and we have fewer excuses, since our country is much smaller and it's easier to travel to other countries, let alone get news about them.
Tunnel vision is a hazard for all from time to time, so it's good to get a broader perspective like this blog.
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Katty Kay constantly has a selfserving sly smirk on her face whenever she is presenting the ubitquitous Hate America story and it rises to almost a schrill when its the essential HATE BUSH Copy she is reading.
she's a beautiful person is she not.
keep it up Katy love your comments on Chris Matthews show. Keep keeping them real.
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31. At 11:55am on 29 Jun 2008, pleasingshareman wrote:
Justin
Yet the BBC is constantly and forever, on a reflex reaction that in the 21st century all America is terrible, wrong, and bad !!
How sad and shameful, to have this treatment to your closest friend.
One america is no ones friend but their own.
Tony joined in on this little war to maybe help steer GW to a better solution than letting him go alone.
At all times when Tony the(WILL NOT PRINT) tried to say here I helped you how about listening(lets say contracts after the take over of Iraq) how to maintain peace etc. at all occations america turned to it's "friend" and said "I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK!"
America has the shame there.
but then they can do no wrong.
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If you wonder why america gets bashed, look at the news.
America is in a very bad place at the moment. Moral athoritory thrown to the wind,A nation which refuses to allow it's soldiers to be tried for war crimes that tries to prosecute others for war crimes.
Indeed they invaded (with UK help) another nation so as to prevent a war crime.
Now you want every one to pretend things are like some rosy woodstock concert.
America scares people these days with their behaviour (even americans).
In the rest of the world we try not to turn to the bully and say"aww didums did you scratch you finder when you hit that little boy.awww."
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I have read every post having been gone for a while. As always very interesting and well informed, so please understand, I don't know so I am asking.
First, Is it only the people of the world that have nothing where they live are saving and risking everything to get here?
Secondly, History lessons listened to, is it the political and financial state of each Nation at the moment that drives the aliances made?
And Last, What can be done to realign the people of worldwide with so many differences into a peaceful coalition with a unified goal?
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#43, jacksforge wrote:
"America scares people these days with their behaviour (even americans).
In the rest of the world we try not to turn to the bully and say"aww didums did you scratch you finder when you hit that little boy.awww."
Thank you for making my point.
I'll refrain from further comment to avoid the label of "arrogant". ;-)
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Obama is putting the cart before the horse. He should get elected President first...before acting like he's one. He has a lot of unfinished business here in the US...like voting in Congress. Maybe if he went there once in awhile, he'd learn how the government works before he gets a chance to run it.
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, jacksforge wrote:
If you wonder why america gets bashed, look at the news.
America is in a very bad place at the moment. Moral athoritory thrown to the wind,A nation which refuses to allow it's soldiers to be tried for war crimes that tries to prosecute others for war crimes.
Indeed they invaded (with UK help) another nation so as to prevent a war crime.
Depends on what news you are listening to. An unbiased view: Is that the USA is the moral counter to the corruption of the U.N, leads the fight against terrorism and does more to help in humanatarian crisis than any nation in the world
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#44dougtexan
Good questions all, especially the last one.
Unfortunately, having a unified goal such as preserving the resources of our planet will probably always take second place to the self-serving of individual countries.
#46marcusaurelius
Perhaps, if a person wants to be president that person should at least 'look and act' like a president.
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doug ,
good aims lets all ponder that.
the first, not quite just those that are poor attract more attention.(police) the rich can come here anyway.
alliences happen for all sorts of reasons, but maybe.
third. there's the hard one , but I GUARANTEE it will not be achieved without critical self introspection and with the continuation of policies and attitude that find so much favour with some posters.
those based on racism and hatred .
Adrianinny,
you are the bullies. it is you that are going on about how it hurts to be told your country is offensive.
I am interested how this analagy could be applied so easilly to some other nation, where did you have in mind?
unless it is Israel.
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#46, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Obama is putting the cart before the horse. He should get elected President first...before acting like he's one. He has a lot of unfinished business here in the US...like voting in Congress. Maybe if he went there once in awhile, he'd learn how the government works before he gets a chance to run it."
But "acting" like a leader is what he does best. It's the work of a congressman that seems to have eluded him.
Remember Hillary's comment during one of the debates when she pointed out that the legislation Obama was taking credit for had never, in fact, been passed?
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jacksforge,
Rest assured that I am not "hurt" by anyone's complaining about my big, bad, bullying country. I simply stated that it gets tiresome (and loses much of its effectiveness).
The difference is that I happen to believe that the US is a force for great good in this world. I am extremely proud of my country.
I don't believe Bush is a dictator. Nor do I believe that the government is intent on stripping me of all my rights. I don't believe I live in a police state. Karl Rove is just a smart tactician, not an evil satan-like demon preying on innocent victims.
I find a lot of that hysterical, quite frankly.
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http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_lame_claim_about_mccains_money.html
What about this?
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47 leads the fight against terrorism
really, well the terrorists are really glad, because they get more recruits every day with american attitudes and actions.
"Tries to " may be more appropriate.
And oh Magic anyone reading these postes will know that you are not the possessor of "An unbiased view".
Oh wait sorry american views are the only thing that matter.
Back to why you get bashed so much.
Keep at it maybe more will bash america as as result.
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51
it gets tiresome telling americans how crap they are but we persist.
america could be all you wish.
but it is not.
If you were standing on a babies fingers i suspect you would shout at the child to shut up.
Bush is a fool and those that continue to support him are fools to.
You must not be a christian, I assume ,by the lack of care or concern that you show to others.
And the false worship of the graven image and false Idol you take part in so much.
If you are a christian remember this loving your country before God makes you a worshipper of false Gods.
good luck
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jacksforge wrote:
47 leads the fight against terrorism
really, well the terrorists are really glad, because they get more recruits every day with american attitudes and actions.
"Tries to " may be more appropriate.
And oh Magic anyone reading these postes will know that you are not the possessor of "An unbiased view".
And what is your solution acceed to their demands and follow Sharia law. Make women wear Burkhas.
Maybe you should lisen to something beside the BBC
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jacksforge,
Persist you do. You are wrong, but don't let that stop you.
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And what is your solution acceed to their demands and follow Sharia law. Make women wear Burkhas.
wow hell no I don't want that. I want a bunch of christians and zionists running my country. I want bigotry and hatred to be what my country is about.
oh so wait.it is. isn't that the problem , you'll have so much in common.
Ps around letcherous rude men some women LIKE to wear Burkhas.
None of you americans gave a @# when the taliban were oppressing women before 9/11
NONE.
Those Brits now they had raised the issue.
But carry on , I will guarentee that where ever the US makes it's presence felt they will gain enemies, until they become bringers of more than death.
The times I have pointed out some american help that was appreciated ,the posts flowed saying how we should show might etc.
Like I said before and as one told me you'll get more with honey.
But some seem to think that no help is allowed for arabs.
Even the military has locals and "Haji"
Haji being jihadist.
The millitary does see the difference between the people.
Shame the followers and chickenhawks do not see the same.
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By the way FOX is nothing.it is not news it is propaganda.
pbs is great but then they also slag off people like you'll ,all the time.
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jacksforge #54
"it gets tiresome telling Americans how crap they are."
Well jacksforge it's a tough job but someone has to do it. How lucky we are to have you for that assignment. Maybe you should run for President of the United States so you can fix it right yourself. Oops, I forgot, you are only a Brit who came here to tell us and can't run even though you are you say an American citizen. And were it not for your trained pet flea who would have to go into quarrantine for six months, you would move back to Britain where life is so much better. How sorry I am for you having to suffer the Pacific Northwest in Oregon. We appreciate the sacrifice you make on our behalf.
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#51andreainny
Wow! America COULD be a force for good. We do reach into our pocketbooks and our hearts during disasters.
However, I cannot agree with your comments about the current administration. I feel myself to be very patriotic. If you read one of my earlier posts, I commented that I was thankful every day that I was born in the USA. My parents were immigrants, I am of the first generation native to America. My sister-in-law and one of my sons-in-law are also immigrants. My family does not take our citizenship for granted but we also are not blind to the wrongs committed by our government.
I will also tell you that for various stupid reasons that I won't bore you with, We know that our communications with family outside the US have been monitored.
One can love one's country but unconditional love should be reserved for babies and small children not the governing bodies we elect to run our country.
'The price of liberty is eternal vigilance'
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I have to add that where I live, a county sheriff is racially profiling Hispanics in "sweeps" to find 'undocumented immigrants' Despite intense criticism no one seems able to stop this. I would call that a "police state."
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#20, aquarizonagal:
My heritage is the same. We still have relatives coming to the US, starting with nothing, working their way up and trying to live the American dream.
I find it interesting that because I don't hold very negative views on our country I am considered blind or ignorant. I am neither.
Perhaps it's because I don't hate Bush. I'm disappointed but not to the point where I make silly claims and accusations. For example, I can tell the difference between Bush and Hitler. There's been so much nonsense thrown around by the left that they don't know what's real anymore.
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'my British colleague' - a tad cold for someone who's had the courage to bring the great election news unspun from America this past year unlike certain 'British' journalists.
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I find it quite interesting that what was a very simple comment has created so virulent a response. Of course Obama should spend time outside the US, if only to have the perspective of looking back in.
Furthermore, and first, Obama should make sure that he has a weekend away from media and policy advisors (say in a nice country house like Hatfield); second, he should include Spain in his trip (the Latino vote). If he was really smart, he'd go to Morocco as well and make a major policy speech in Casablanca along the lines that it is no longer satisfactory to 'round up the usual suspects'.
Not only should he visit Europe, it would be smart to do an Asia-Pacific trip: Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, Delhi, Sydney, Wellington and, just to spice things up, Buenos Aires. And while out in New Zealand, he ought to go to the deep South Island and and have a three day policy session away from the media. It wont happen, of course, but it is the best thing he could do; go remote, and not be pressured, but think clearly.
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#61. aquarizonagal wrote:
'I have to add that where I live, a county sheriff is racially profiling Hispanics in "sweeps" to find 'undocumented immigrants' Despite intense criticism no one seems able to stop this. I would call that a "police state."'
There is tremendous pressure to deal with illegals.
You could also say that the police are doing their job, which is to arrest and detain people who break the law.
You seem interested in upholding the law -- especially in the case of privacy. Are you not as interested in upholding the laws that are being broken by illegal aliens?
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I will also add that since WWII, members of my family have served in the military (still do so right now) and have given their blood when called to service by our government.
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#62andreainny
You are so correct, some comments are extreme but many come from Americans. We can be our own worst critics.
The point I make is that you can love and appreciate something and still see the warts. In my mind, I separate my country from those we elect to run things.
Perhaps, one of the greatest things about America is that we can disagree, criticize, speak out and not fear the knock at our doors by secret police come to arrest us.
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#65andreainny
Illegal immigration is such an emotionally charged issue where I live that I can't even begin to address it. My family immigrated legally but I can't help having compassion for people who are struggling with our current immigration system.
My point in that post was that racially profiling in blanket "sweeps" offends me. It seems too much like a 'police state.' Most of the people rounded up were perfectly 'legal' I might add.
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Sigh!
I am starting to get confused regarding how a discussion of Obama's summer plans has evolved into what we are now discussing.
I am not fond of beer but I think a large gin and tonic might be good right now. Have fun.
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aquarizonal gal #67;
#62andreainny
"...some comments are extreme but many come from Americans. We can be our own worst critics."
Why shouldn't we. That's how things get discussed and mistakes corrected. Unlike Europeans, we do not hide our warts from each other or the world. Nobody can change the past but if you do not acknowledge it, you can't learn from it.
And why should America care what the outside world especially Europeans think of their country. They have mostly hated it from the day it was born. They don't count. Their opinions don't count. Most Americans are so indifferent to them they couldn't find Europe or anyone else on a map. Let them yammer and scream for all the good it does them. They have become no more than a faint distant din.
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Marcus
Just noticed your comment on another thread here.Thanks for the snide words about me and Jack. Pity that a loving relationship has never entered your little world. Giving and receiving compliments love and affection might open your eyes. Told you aeons ago to take the mittens off that your mammy still makes you wear but I see you still are using the blinkers.
May I refute your suggestions that those who submit comment against America are wholeheartedly against it as a country. Most are solely challenging the past and present day attitude and actions that your government have seen fit to introduce. There is a great difference between sceptical comments against an administration or a candidate, and the resulting septic wounds of casualties, should America continue with the blinkered approach it now appears to favour. Why badmouth fellow Americans who have emigrated to another country or foriegners who have settled in the USA?, If then we on the shores of Europe can not question the tsunami like results that could originate from an American action then you as America, are a threat to us and the world, not the guardian angel figure that you appear to sketch in your writings.
Although I appeciate the military knowledge of some who hold a vet status on these pages,[ though not their ideas], yours push me toward you being a "GAMER".
I believe you play a GrandTheft Auto or Star Wars game in the security of your home, where after killing off half the citizens of Liberty City, or anhialating a solar system or two you wipe the memory clean to start again. Previous post from you mentioned robot warriors delivered via pilotless robot drones resulting in no home casualties!!!!! Who is going to change the battery in its' back?. The robots would not be able to reach the enemy without tripping over the plastic bottle mountain in their way. And if it succeeds? A new Guantanamo Bay camp for computers robots to interrogate computer robots from the opposing side.. Cyberboarding prehaps?
Your ideas of a nuke here or a clean bomb there, are voiced with the same gamer mentality, without any respect for actuality. You paint the picture of aggressive action being a cakewalk, which will have very little effect on the world, when it is already approaching the brink or perhaps is even sitting at it regarding the Ecological balance. Your feeling and rejoicing the fact that America maintains an isolationist attitude will not help you any more than it will Europe should the balance tilt further. Perhaps, you will last out a few weeks longer than the rest of us, but that is of little benefit.
I know that when you put the play box down you watch movies.
May I suggest you check out the old B+W "On the Beach" movie 1959. It even has a last drop of gasoline car race scene like GTA so you will feel at home.
If that film does not inspire you to think a little further, then try the older James Cagney movie White Heat 1949. It's no pointer regarding saving the planet, but you can practice your "Top of the world, Ma " screams before you greet the apocalpse yourself..
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Those who complain of "America bashing" are evidently unaware of the Sons of Liberty and of Alexis de Tocqueville.
There is an appalling consistency in American attitudes, from 1770 to the present.
One hopes that, with Obama, this might change.
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MarkfromOxford wrote:
I find it quite interesting that what was a very simple comment has created so virulent a response. Of course Obama should spend time outside the US, if only to have the perspective of looking back in.
Furthermore, and first, Obama should make sure that he has a weekend away from media and policy advisors (say in a nice country house like Hatfield); second, he should include Spain in his trip (the Latino vote). If he was really smart, he'd go to Morocco as well and make a major policy speech in Casablanca along the lines that it is no longer satisfactory to 'round up the usual suspects'.
Not only should he visit Europe, it would be smart to do an Asia-Pacific trip: Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, Delhi, Sydney, Wellington and, just to spice things up, Buenos Aires. And while out in New Zealand, he ought to go to the deep South Island and and have a three day policy session away from the media. It wont happen, of course, but it is the best thing he could do; go remote, and not be pressured, but think clearly.
You do know that Obama has to campaign in the nation he is vying to lead right? Obama is not the next President yet.
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#72, there are good things as well as bad
with American attitudes. If it weren't for
us and our closes allies, including the Brits,
most of the world would be speaking
German, Japanese, or made into soap.
While Americans may not know much about
the world, that's because we are a young,
inwardly-directed country which is still growing
at a pretty good clip.
Notwithstanding one bad administration,
we have nothing to apologize for, and, I
might add, Alexis de Tocqueville's
observations, while as true now as when he
wrote them, are not entirely derogatory.
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watermanaquarius
Another European who gets it all wrong every time.
Legitimate criticisms of America are perfectly ok with me if they are based on facts and put into context. Where Europeans including BBC fail is to present some of the facts, distortions of the facts, and outright myths and lies taken completely out of context. Look a the debate about Israel. You would hardly know that Europe tried to exterminate the Jews for over a thousand years and even those who opposed Hitler sat by and did nothing as he was murdering them like sheep at the slaughter. Now they pretend they didn't know what was going on. What a pack of lies.
Every criticism of what America has done to this or that minoroty or group or individual somewhere pales in comparison to the seemingly eternal history of European slaughter of people all over the world for over a thousand years to exploit them, steal what they had, use them, and discard them as so much trash. You hear about a few detainees tortured in GITMO or Abu Gharib but what about the countless Algerians the French tortured we are just beginning to hear about 50 years later? What about British atrocities in Northern Ireland?
My government's attitude today and ever since the Declaration of Independence was first published is a rejection of everything about Europe, period. It always was, still is, and probably always will be. Most Americans have been either too polite or too ignorant to say it. I am neither.
Is America a theat to the world? Yes by far the worst ever. It is a threat to every dictatorship of every stripe from Theocracy, Ethnocracy, Eurocracy, and all the others. Is it a threat to Europe? Without the slightest doubt. It will eventually destroy Europe, most likely unwittingly by some economic policy which has unintended consequences. Too bad, I'd prefer a deliberate stroke. The current economic situation seems like it will do just fine. Who'd ever think the Europeans would fall for the subprime mortgage scam American financial institutions fell for. A real body blow to the world's economy just when it didn't need it. The insanity of the Carbon cap and trade policy the next President will push will be another major blow to the world. You think food prices are high now? Just wait until American farmers sell their carbon credits and get jobs in the city instead of producing the food the world depends on to eat. Why work so hard when you can just collect a check in the mail and go to an office desk job?
I don't play video games. Certainly not shootemups. My speed is solitaire, free cell, and an occasional game of chess.
I've seen On the Beach many times. I saw it when it was first in the movies. I saw it again just a few months ago on TV. Personally I preferred Dr. Strangelove. Peter Sellers played three parts.
It might surprise you to know that many evangelical Christians in America not only expect a nuclear war, they anticiptate it as a necessary step to the second coming of Christ. Now if that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.
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#75, MarcusAII, The Final Solution is *way* off topic. Saying that "even those who opposed Hitler sat by and did nothing as he was murdering (Jews) like sheep at the slaughter. Now they pretend they didn't know what was going on. What a pack of lies." seems to me to be ignorant of life in the 1930s. With communications as they were then, what exactly were "they" supposed to do? Before the mass killings began, people such as Albert Einstein, Felix Bloch, Eugene Wigner, Leo Szilard, Lise Meitner, Edward Teller, Otto Frisch departed Germany, along with what has been calculated as half of its Jewish population. I don't see what the League of Nations and the United States could have reasonably done to prevent The Holocaust. There was no satellite surveillance, no fax, no e-mail - even long-distance telephone was an inexact science. It's very easy to use 20-20 hindsight, but life seventy years ago was very different - and remember that America was not in the least eager to join a war in Europe. Charles Lindbergh and America First sat by as well, and the then American Ambassador Joseph Kennedy considered that "Democracy is finished in England." He ignored Churchill's admonition that there could never be a peaceful resolution. Apart from European nations, the United States did no better all those years ago.
Perhaps we should get back to what Mr Obama is doing during the summer.
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Marcus
Great minds think alike or fools never differ?.
I had added the Dr Srangelove bit- "Mein President I can walk" but thought it better to omit it here.
Glad you like Peter Sellers playing Dr.S., Group Captain Mandrake and the President Muffley in the film.
I had you down for the Slim Pickens part -Major King Kong. Sitting astride the bomb on its way to the target!
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You could also say that the police are doing their job, which is to arrest and detain people who break the law.
Adrianny when did you last see the pigs going into a office building to get that swindler.
?
enron, that the last time.
illegal dumping by contractors , do they look for them . NO , just illegals.
Immigrants are not the only criminals.
Can I ask which ethnic group you are from. ?
Not rude like but after all maybe you do not face street sweeps pulling you when you popped down the shops without your ID.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
as for my being a yank, have been always will be something I cannot change.
The animal I look after is still more intelligent than you ,if that helps you guess what creature it is.
Anyone else care to guess, the clues are there. put this M erronious out of his misery.
That is all you have as an argument to any comments, I have a pet I will not kill to move back to the UK. which as I said was a reason not to return to the UK.
you persist which only goes to prove your inability to address the issues at hand.
I do not blame america for the holecoste, but if any country were to be guilty after those directly involved it would be the US.
After all US made money at the beginning of ww2 by selling to them, oh not through direct channels but they did.
I believe GW family may have made some money at that time.
Maybe if your rants were to not ask for the destruction of europe those from europe might be more polite.
but if america were to be behaving like you , no wonder so many write in to slam on the americans.
Look in the mirror MATE.
we all are american,passport or not.that is what america is about . people coming here to better something. in this case america.
I feel genuinely sorry for you at times.
the shock you will face at some time ,if you live long enough(stay off the VIOXX) will be pretty big.
The only thing that will save america is if the poeple here ignore the types like you and look around.
America cannot live in a vacuum.
though weirdly enough an american can exist with a vacuum in their head.
I wonder where your nepoleon complex comes from?
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I feel, BO is a little too evasive.
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David Cunard, your lame excuses carry no water with me. All of Europe hated the Jews, they still do. That is why they side with the Palestinians. Why do you think Israel doesn't trust Europe and would not accept it as a mediator? Did Europe know all the details about what was going on? Well maybe not all of it right away but the myth that the German population didn't know about the concentration camps and the mass murder was blown away by an American author in the 90s (can't remember his name) with lots of facts including picture postcards from Germans who worked in the camps to their families. They were actually proud of what they did for the Fatherland. You say Europeans didn't know what was going on in Germany in the 30s? What about what the Serbs were doing to all of the ethnic minorities around them in the 80s and 90s? Just who do you think you are kidding, another European? The Dutch troops were right there in Srebrenica and did NOTHING. No excuses, you just make yourself look even more contemptable and foolish.
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ma with all seriousness . that was a shameful time for europe, but please do not pretend that even you would probably not joined the resistance if you were there.
You do not seem to have lived in a country at war. Let alone occupied.
Yet you talk often in a manner that sounds more like a nazi than a victim of the nazi's.
That is why so many will not understand you.
Many of the methods you talk about are right out of the nazi manual.
I'm starting to feel almost sorry for you.
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#82, "All of Europe hated the Jews, they still do."?
Please. That is complete and utter nonsense. And the rest of it is so far OT that there isn't much point in responding to it except to ask if I can call Godwin already?
It is a shame but it's that kind of ignorant black and white approach which has caused the United States so much trouble in the past. In reality it is a dogmatic anti-European (or anti-world??) -ism that is just the same as the fanatical anti-americanism displayed by some (but not many) in Europe.
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Jimmy_The_1
#82, "All of Europe hated the Jews, they still do."?
"Please. That is complete and utter nonsense. And the rest of it is so far OT that there isn't much point in responding to it except to ask if I can call Godwin already?"
"It is a shame but it's that kind of ignorant black and white approach which has caused the United States so much trouble in the past. In reality it is a dogmatic anti-European (or anti-world??) -ism that is just the same as the fanatical anti-americanism displayed by some (but not many) in Europe."
No it is not the same. Why? Because unlike Anti-Americanism, it is based on facts. A long long long very long history of facts which goes back a thousand years and more. But these would just be words....If I hadn't seen it and experienced it for myself first hand when I lived in Europe. Of all of Euopre's problems.....by far its worst....is its self delusion...the lies it tells about itself to itself and the rest of the world. It just doesn't want to know the truth. Europe is the living embodiment of Oscar Wilde's story "The Picture of Dorian Gray."
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85
that's HISTORY , you are talking about acting like the worst of history and then slagging the peopel of the past off for behaving during relatively unenlightened times for behaving as bad as you would today.
Look in that mirror ,if you can.
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jacksforge #86
What happened 30 seconds ago is history too. Why not read what the leaders of Latin America have to say about the EU's new laws regarding illegal immigrants being put in prison before they are deported.
Here's my posting on Mark Mardell's blog site;
robcraufurd #115
More grist for the mill;
"Europe ... By creating common standards that are implemented through national institutions, Europe can spread its influence without becoming a target for hostility."
Then read this from BBC;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7482767.stm
"Mercosur condemns EU migrant law
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez told the Mercosur meeting in Argentina that Europe had "legalised barbarism".
But it was the EU rules passed last month that truly united the South American leaders in anger at the gathering in the northern city of Tucuman, says the BBC's Daniel Schweimler in Argentina.
In a joint declaration, they rejected "every effort to criminalise irregular migration and the adoption of restrictive immigration policies, in particular against the most vulnerable sectors of society, women and children".
The statement also noted "the necessity to fight against racism, discrimination, xenophobia and other forms of intolerance".
It was signed by the seven presidents of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela, and ministers from associate Mercosur members Colombia, Ecuador and Peru.
Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa called the EU measures "shameful".
Brazil's Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva branded the law "outrageous, ignominious".
Bolivian leader Evo Morales said the measures did nothing to combat racism.
Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner said the law was inadmissible.
Uruguay's leader Tabare Vazquez said: "Nobody emigrates for fun, they do it out of necessity.""
Oh the EU has influence all right. It just alienated the entire continent of South America and central and North America up through Mexico.
Note, these condemnations are not my words but those of elected leaders of nations in Latin America. This as reported by BBC itself. Well Europhiles, what do you have to say to that?
That's not history jacksforge, that is today...and tomorrow. That is what Europe is about.
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the only reason they say less about the states is they don't want to critisize the americans cause they are notorious for getting angry.
And starting wars and funding terrorists. Or "anti drug "cartels like the columbian administration.
Oh and if you had not noticed I'm against all borders. all racism
I do not support the law and could do nothing anyway as a Yank.
But as a Yank you should remember. America will not take anyone these days. not even the interpretors that saved out troops in Iraq.
So take the plank out on this one.
America is not the place peopel strive to raech.europe is. From south america. Just think .
That means they would rather travel across the atlantic than spend time in the US.
Or maybe they just don't want to get SHOT BY THE MINUTE MEN.
Bet their a welcome party.
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I'm glad you brought it up jacksforge. Sarkozy wanted the Columbian government to surrender to the FARC. That's what French governments do best, surrender. Napoleaon surrendered to the British, The French surrendered to the Nazis. They surrendered in Algeria and Vietnam. They were very angry at America for denying them the chance to surrender to the USSR. Now they have more opportunities. They surrenedred to the EU. In fact far from controlling it as they expected, they can't even cut the tax on gasoline. Next they will have a chance to surrender to Islamic extremists. And the reason is obvious. Why would anyone want to fight when you can spend your life hanging around an outdoor cafe or bistro?
The Colombian government is making excellent progress in destroying the FARC much to the anger of South American (and probably European) communists. Hugo Chavez is very angry his friends are getting blown away. How glad I am that the US is supporting the right side.
Why doesn't Latin America criticize the US more (it gets plenty but not like what they said about Europe)? Because the largest minority in the US are their own ex-pats and their progeny.
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And that is because america's short sighted economic system and corperate system have left all thse countries with bigger problems than before america got involved.
as for columbia , that is a joke Farc are terrorists.
What the hell is the columbian gov.
>oh they fight a DRUG WAR. , which is a waste of time. If americans want americans to stop taking Coke then , give them the ego they are missing that coke fills.
Most peopel do not care about Gov if they can avoid it.
Americans went to columbia to say "GROW LETTUCE". what?
You don't get two harvest a year from that and it uses 3 times the amount of water.
If you want to go down the path of defending oppresive Gov. like columbia , then (oh wait , that is all you support, sorry I forgot.)
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the reason they come to the US is there is not a Bloody great ocean between them and the US.
but maybe you are too slow to notice the ATLANTIC.
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Re 82
And you're basing this huge, huge generalisation upon what exactly? A year, maybe two, that you spent in Europe? Contrary to what you might think, this doesn't make you the world's leading expert on Europeans' feelings towards Jews.
Yes, anti-Semitism has existed for a very long time. Yes, in some places, among some people, it still does. But to claim that *every single European* hates Jews is utterly ridiculous. Are you forgetting about those, perhaps, who are both European and Jewish? Are they locked in some sort of perpetual cycle of self-loathing? How about people with Jewish family, or Jewish friends? Are they concealing their true feelings, only to be able to speak freely on Saturdays?
And, my my, it seems you're not a fan of the French either. I'm surprised, considering your incredible and in-depth knowledge of Europe, that you've forgotten that without the help of the French, you'd have been just another dominion of the British Empire. Next time you look at the Statue of Liberty, why don't you try to remember where she came from?
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jacksforge 90
America's shortsighted economic system has produced the most wealth and distributed it among the most people of any system in the world. By GDP standards, 5% of the world's population produces 28% of its wealth. But if we used GNP instead of GdP which would consider the repatriation of American wealth production from American owned assets overseas, the figure would probably be even higher. Everyone in the world wishes their economic system were that shortsighted. It seems to me by the very fact that you choose to live in the US and be a US citizen by choice, you are among its many beneficiaries. How funny to see someone who bites the hand that feeds it.
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your hand doesn't feed me. the Idea that america feeds it's own is laughable.
as for gdp etc , why has america got so many poor. why is there such a disparity of wealth in the US.
How come for such a rich nation there is no health care. etc.
your figures are bul and have nothing to do with reallity.
In one day all that wealth could be wiped out. Just because the usual suspects are not here to write in the lengthy letters to show how bad an assessment you have made does not make you right.
and the US citizenship was not a choice .it was a birthright.
one for which I care very little.
Are you enjoying your Bar b q yet?
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jacksforge...if America goes broke...the rest of the world will starve to death. And it just might happen. Watch the prices of oil and food continue to go up. When the next President, whether it's Obama or McCain agrees to the insanity of carbon cap and trade, watch the farmers sell their credits to the power companies and stop growing food. Far easier to get a desk job in the city than grow and harvest the grains that feeds much of the world.
14 tillion dollars jacksforge. That's America's GDP. It takes all of Europe combined to equal it. If there were no money to be made here...why do people just keep coming? Why did you really come here anyway? Got your elephant gun handy? You never know when adventure is just around the corner. You've got to be prepared when it comes knocking down your door. :-)
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wow and yet the peopel in europe still manage to live and prosper.
maybe you use a stupid number to analyse.
After all like I pointed out to you before
this is from the CIA website.
GDP does not guarentee wealth for people just for the nation.and those at the top.
GDP (purchasing power parity):
$292.7 billion (2007 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
$166.8 billion (2007 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
6.4% (2007 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$2,000 (2007 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 17.6%
industry: 52.7%
services: 29.7% (2007 est.)
Labor force:
50.13 million (2007 est.)
Labor force - by occupation:
agriculture: 70%
industry: 10%
services: 20% (1999 est.)
Unemployment rate:
4.9% (2007 est.)
Population below poverty line:
70% (2007 est.)
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as long as the world is not reliant on monsanto star crap corn with it's sterile seed they will be OK. as long as we do not continue to warm the earth.or if we allow migration. after all the states is pretty open at this stage.and could support a greater population if they tried.
some of those starving as a result of international arms sales.maybe.
I will have them next door to me , will you?
I am here that is all you need to know. and only so I can say to you you are wrong. I live here and I see the other side of things.
and sometimes call them a name.
Funny how many do go back when they make some money. and also funny how europeans are no longer emigrating in vast numbers to the US.
If there is any thing in the US it is that space. that europeans recognise but americans don't(minutemen on the border).
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Speaking of international arms sales, the British government has been overruled by its own courts in trying to block investigation of a two billion dollar illegal payoff to Saudi Princes for about 40 billion dollars in military hardware contracts. And on another front, Congress is furious with the US air force for awarding a contract to EADS to supply air to air refueling tankers in preference to Boeing. I think the amount was 9 billion dollars. That's sure to be reversed if it hasn't been already. Well they still have the A380...if they can figure out how to build it...and find someone to buy it. Right now I think they have about 149 sold...and one delivered.
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back to this one which is a little funny really
on Saudi air deal OLD news there mate.
big deal that's how international business IS done, ACCEPT IT. after all you are an acceptor are you not, you said so recently, you said you" accept things".
as for
"Congress is furious with the US air force for awarding a contract to EADS to supply air to air refueling tankers in preference to Boeing. I think the amount was 9 billion dollars."
this is funny
"Is the A380 a C5A? Yes and no. A380's details are very different reflecting 40 years of remarkable aeronautical advance but they are approximately the same shape and size with the same mission, to carry a large load over a long distance. They have more in common than you think. BTW, you haven't heard the US military ask EADS to develop a military cargo version have you? I didn't think so."
MArcus erronious blabbing a while back.
These were your words.
Funny I keep telling you you are not so smart.
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You missed the point about the A380 entirely. The point was that American aircraft manufacturers could have built a passenger plane of comparable size and capacity easily any time during the last forty years by simply designing a civilian version of an already proven military cargo plane. The job was already 80 to 90 percent done. So could the Russians. Then why didn't they? Only one answer, because the saw that there was not enough market demand for such a plane. Then why did the Europeans build one? Ego. It's nothing more than one more of their useless monuments at taxpayer cost. That Eurosaurus Rex has been so badly dogged with technical and managerial setbacks for so long and at such expense shows just how primitive Europe still is. Lots of other me too projects falling by the wayside as technological road kill also. Galileo the redundant global positioning satellite system and the Euro mission to Mars Beagle II just to cite two. Let's face it, technology isn't Europe's strong point. Maybe they should stick to the kind of things they do best...oil paintings for one. They have had some good oil painters in the past, they might be able to do it again.
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You missed the point about the A380 entirely. The point was that American aircraft manufacturers could have built a passenger plane of comparable size and capacity easily any time during the last forty years by simply designing a civilian version of an already proven military cargo plane. The job was already 80 to 90 percent done. So could the Russians. Then why didn't they? Only one answer, because the saw that there was not enough market demand for such a plane. Then why did the Europeans build one? Ego. It's nothing more than one more of their useless monuments at taxpayer cost. That Eurosaurus Rex has been so badly dogged with technical and managerial setbacks for so long and at such expense shows just how primitive Europe still is. Lots of other me too projects falling by the wayside as technological road kill also. Galileo the redundant global positioning satellite system and the Euro mission to Mars Beagle II just to cite two. Let's face it, technology isn't Europe's strong point. Maybe they should stick to the kind of things they do best...oil paintings for one. They have had some good oil painters in the past, they might be able to do it again.
Well it was an italian that painted your white house roof wasn't it.
as to the airbus.
the wings are an advancement that will save millions in fuel. they are way more efficient than the old wings on the A 380.
the boeing is not doing so well either(despite being smaller so I would think easier to build) ;)
strange that it has a considerably longer range and higher take off weight.
oh and more economical.
well there that would be why you dislike it.
you should really check at least one of your "facts"
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It would not surprise me if the A380 goes the way of the Concorde. Nope, wouldn't surprise me one bit.
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blah blah.
nor me.
oh and though concord was a not commercial success . it was real popular,as a flag ship.
I believe it was an american plane badly serviced that dropped the crap on the run way.
I care not, I am Glad concord is out of the sky and no longer making that awful racket so a few could say they fly at the speed of sound.
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Amazing how easily some BBC commentators let slip their own party political views. Justin Webb no exception.
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