Narrowing options
So what happens now? I think she folds this week; to take the Michigan argument to the Rules Committee, without any political context of primaries being won and supporters energised, would be too unforgiveable for too many people in the party. It would ruin 2012 or 2016 or Senate Leadership. And for the party to let Harold Ickes and those folks shouting "Denver, Denver, Denver!" win the day would be appeasement which as the president often points out, is a mistake.
Reports are that the mood against Hillary even in the room was strengthened by the ranters.
Still nothing is certain. But behind the scenes I am told the big push is to get enough super-delegates to endorse Obama within the next few hours so that the actual victory is delivered by the electors in Montana and South Dakota on Tuesday.
This theory supported by the New York Times reporting on the subject of emails from team Obama to superdelegates: "A number of people have reported that various members intend to endorse AFTER the last primary," said one e-mail message to wavering delegates from Mr. Obama's supporters, its warning barely couched. "Those members need to understand that they won't get any visibility from that."
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It was disgusting that such an important meeting as The Rules and Bye-Laws should end up like a footie crowd! and even more Shame on some of the 30 members of the committee who behaved the same, when they should be there to decide what is BEST FOR THE PARTY! - to see members standing up and clapping/cheering when one candidate scored a point????
It was no shock to see Harold Ickes, steam coming from his ear, each time he did not get how own way and then at the end when The Party should have UNITED to still make THREATS from Mrs Clinton, how disgusting, many are asking now was she ever a real candidate with this attitude??
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I give up. What's a half vote? They count all of them and divide by two? Only allow half the people to cast votes? Or is it more like a TUC card vote?Does this mean that in the Presidential election in some states (Florida comes to mind) some voters will only count as a half?
The more I read of this mess, the stronger my suspicion becomes that McCain will actually win by a real landslide out of nothing more than voter weariness . . .
So it's Chelsea Clinton for President in 2016, then.
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Justin - whatever superdelegates do on Tuesday is of little importance compared to what they do in August. It is well known that some of those supporting Mrs Clinton moved to her opponent, so the converse could also be true, the waverers may not be fully convinced that Mr Obama should be the Nominee. Even with the slimmest of victories it would not be an overwhelming vote of confidence in him, and if you saw him at the press conference explaining his resignation from Trinity United Church of Christ, you will have seen a man with no self confidence, totally lacking in assurance. Quite a difference to those oratorical skills that so much as been made of.
Now that he and Mrs Obama have left Trinity, he says he probably won't join another until January of next year, which doesn't say much for his church-going habits. I would have thought he needs all the help he can get, including divine intervention. But perhaps the divinity has other plans.
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jaybs1
she was a real cantidate once, but only until Obama did well and she started to smell.
a guest on insidewashington this week put it well.
"She is like a female Jesse Jackson or al sharpton. She's embarrasing"
personally I think Jesse and Al are both better than her but i think the point is made.
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The real question is not how this affects the primary race. If Clinton wants to, and she does, she can continue to challenge Obama until he has a majority of delegates (which will probably be sooner rather than later). The real question is 'will this placate the Democratic voters of Florida and Michigan?' Obama has been doing very poorly in Florida, down 10 points and not having led in even a single poll there since the start of the primaries. Michigan is still wide open, but if he can't secure it in the general election, that leaves him heavily dependent on Ohio, giving us a repeat of the 2004 race.
Personally, I think it would have been best for the DNC to give them the full delegations (it wouldn't make much of a difference in the delegate count in any case), and then revamp the primaries completely from the ground up, starting with getting rid of their 6 month long schedule. Isn't it more important that the DNC try to win elections than punish states for breaking their primary rules, especially since the entire primary system seems to be broken? Isn't the reason the DNC exists to win elections for Democratic candidates?
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It's actually pathetic. Rules established by DNC were clear and unambiguous.
Democratic committees in each each and every state knew them from the start and accepted them.
Now imagine that Obama ( and I'm not his supporter) challenges the current verdict on the ground that he hasn't even campaigned hard (if at all) in states which broke the rules for self-aggrandizement.
Would he have a leg to stand on?
Yes, even two.
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This problem is the Democrats own fault.
Even diehard Democrats have to admidt that the winner take all format of the Republicans makes more sense.
This reflect how the general election goes for each state.
So Clinton who actually has won the states that matter in winning the election is going to lose.
And McCain wins because Obama empty suit is more exposed each day
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#3 David_C
I watched the same video of Obama talking about his resignation from his church. I see a sincere man talking with sadness about a difficult decision. This sincerity is what makes him a better candidate than Hillary. The tone of your comment in general is unworthy. This is a personal more than a political manner for Obama and his wife. Lack of self-confidence? - I don't think so! A display of humanity more like.
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Winner takes all isn't the solution either as MagicKirin suggests. The problem is actually the weird concept of superdelegates. In the real world tied votes on a national scale are rather rare so there was no rational need for the incention of superdelegates. It was probably a safeguard by the "democratic establishment" to retain influence over the choice of presidential candidate.
And the 1/2 vote option seems fair, after all one of the arguments I have repeatedly heard Clinton make is that by disallowing their votes, the democrats were "disenfranchising" Florida and Michigan voters, keeping them from participating. Well, they can participate now and let's face it, even if they'd been given a full vote, would it change anything?
There comes a point when a loser gets so desperate that they'll try anything for their own victory but I think there's a danger for Clinton that voters will see that as petty and punish her for it.
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Have to agree with the observers in the first link that Clinton likely knew and approved the compromises. What she was demanding was unreasonable, and a desperation attempt to try to strong arm the nomination any way she could. Ickes' et al's reaction was indeed pure theater, street theater, and comments like 'lipstick on a pig' being shouted do not help anyone make their point.
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75,000 at a rally for Obama something Hilary Clinton would barely have achieved and doubtless given excuses for that as well, why oh why can't she just admit she's lost!
I swear if this woman was in a forest she'd claim it was a jungle and then say she "misspoke".
As for Ickes well nothing short of the committee saying the whole race was tilted in favour of Barack Obama would have pleased him/Hilary.
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I am not an American. But I was told of, and have not read, a Times article where they discuss Clinton being veep and amongst other things getting back $10m of her campaign funds.
If thats true I have no difficulty understanding the hardening of the Democratic hierarchy against her. But she and her husband are not stupid. They know there will be a backlash.
Then it hits me - can she threaten to go independent. She would split the Democratic vote. Leverage etc.
Personally I think Obama is an excellent candidate and Hilary Clinton scares me almost more than Bush.
Her reference to "white" voters in a campaign message must have raised eyebrows amongst her black constituents in New York?
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I don't understand what the 'Lipstick on a pig' remark means but I'm assuming it was intended for Hillary.
The Rules and By-laws commitee had to make that decision because of the risk of offending disenfranchised voters in Michigan and Florida would hurt the democratic party's chances in the general election in November.
I don't think Hillary would run as an independant if she loses the democratic nomination and I don't think that Hillary is going to be offered the VP spot.
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I thought the behaviour of Ickes throughout what I saw of proceedings was fairly disgraceful. He was being partisan and biased all the way through. Why was a leading member of one or either of the campaigns allowed to be on that committee at this time? Surely when he joined the campaign, if he had any honour, he should have resigned membership of that committee?
The behaviour of Clinton's supporters reminded me of the Bush supporters in 2000 who broke into the count and forced it to be stopped. Utterly disgraceful really.
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I'm sure it's crossed her mind to go independent - it worked for her friend Lieberman - but the quite large problem of her lack of money would make it near impossible for her to run.
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Hillary had a chance to make her case and now it has expired...by this time next week Barack Obama should be the definite winner and also by this time next week everyone including Hillary Clinton should support him and unify the party.
If Clinton decides that her self indulgence is unlimited, she will take it to the convention. What happens then? well, god bless the democratic party cause it will have been damaged to the extent that democracts may have a chance of losing the election to Mccain.
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Those protesters were doing a good impression of baboons. Anyway, well done to the DNC for only ~partly~ caving in! Am surprised they waited so many months to decide on this but it still gives 5 whole months for Obama to repair any damage done in those two states. Cunard seems to see in Obama what he is himself - 'a man with no self confidence' etc etc: physician, heal thyself!
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Hillary is running for 2012. She'll go back
to the Senate, lick her wounds, and
come out again fighting in 4 years
(assuming Obama doesn't win in November.)
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Rupert,
You insult baboons.
;-)
ed
P.S. I have to admit (schadenfreude) that nothing gave me more pleasure than seeing yukky Ickes get his come-uppance several times, and at others to be dismissd for the twit he is. Actually, Ms Brazille was an even higher point! Yo Momma!
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It is a sad state of affairs when an organization as large as the DNC sends a mixed message about following the rules and the consequences. It is even sadder that it has been instigated by someone who wants to be president of the USA. Hilliary is spending all her time in PR because she knows she will win it. Too bad they can’t vote in the presidential election. Her response, and her supporters response, to the outcome was equally divisive-just you wait and see what kind of support she will give the democratic nominee. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
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I don't deny Hillary got her campaign off to a good start jacksforge, but once the wheels started to come off they came off completely, after watching Harold Ickes yesterday perhaps we know why, was it Hillary who is so stubborn or as much those behind her.
Hillary either looks the fool now or she tires and save a little bacon! keep fighting like Harold Ickes seemed to suggest and she is Finished, forget 2012, 2016 or 2020, she needs to start to worry what she can in fact do at all after this if she struggles on. Chelsea, well we can all have dreams and she is nothing but a dreamer forget about it. The Clinton Brand is Tarnished and they well know It what do they do to try ans rescue it first sack Ickes, Singer and Penn and Co!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
i dont really think that any presidential candiates have any, absolutely, any affiliation with terrorist organisations! to suggest this is absurd since they wouldnt be allowed to run in the first place.
Wow..so people are saying that obama is with al qaeda and hes got secret service protection.what a load of nonsense!
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MarcusHilariousII
I LOVE reading your posts...
But they're far more entertaining when you're dealing with the subject of Europe or the "art of war".
Your points above #22 read like a Deliverance-type swampman's delirious nightmare...
Don't worry, if there's enough similar opinion among the voters of the US, you'll wake up one morning to President McCain and you'll realise it was all just a terrible dream...
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Any person who lives in the US is acutely aware that Obama honestly does not stand a chance of becoming the next president without Clinton behind him.
Racism in America is pretty strong. I mean, very, very real.
Secondly, the female vote is powerful and Mrs. Clinton has a chance of garnering electorate across political lines because of her gender. But on her own, male chauvinism would prevent her from reaching the top post...
But given the so-called "dream-ticket", between the two of them, Obama and Clinton could realistically win the next election.
Thus, in the likely event that Obama wins the nomination, it would be very saddening for the Democrats if he should fail to bring Clinton in as his VP.
And that's the way it is.
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'Lipstick on a pig' was shouted by a Clinton supporter to indicate the compromise was an unsavory and ugly alternative that was being dressed up as party unity, but unacceptable - at least to them.
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ronaine
It doesn't matter if it's true or not that Obama is in any way affiliated with anyone who as to do with al Qaeda. All that matters is that enough doubt is thrown into the minds of the voters that they won't take a chance. Politics is war.
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Re: 3
That sound you can hear is straws being clutched at. The reason superdelegates have switched from Clinton to Obama is because they want to end this nomination process and give Obama as good a chance as possible in November. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to go the other way - just because it's technically possible doesn't mean it's actually likely.
Re: 5
This is not 2000 or 2004. Florida is no longer in the position to decide the overall winner. Obama has enough states that he can challenge in - Ohio, Iowa, North Carolina, Virginia, Missouri, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada - that he can win the Presidency without needing to win Florida.
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An amusing take on Guilt by association.
And, I can't resist a reprise and Yo Momma!.
;-))
ed
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Say what you want about Hillary, she has shown herself to be a formidable opponent. Obama, on the other hand, has shown himself to be a formidable campaigner.
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The new feminism?
The story
Probably worth the effort of free registration/subscription...
Boo!
ed
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Florida and Michigan respond!
;-)
ed
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And wow i'm in agreement with the kitten on this one , roar kitten roar.
nice 'guilt by assoc link there Ed
as for politics is war comment.yea heard it before by the same idiots that bring us war.
signed up yet?
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Meanwhile, no rest for McChip
I love Fitzgerald, always have!
xx
ed
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Dear Ronaine # 24
What a nice remark to Marcus. Greatly appreciated at least by me.
Perhaps Marcus, just like Hillary is missing out on that simple affectionate response in life- Love and appreciation. Everybody needs it. Some unfortunately do not receive it or have lost it. I hope Marcus is not too stubborn to reject it.
Imagine what Hillary could have achieved if she had had the 5 star loving family background that Obama now experiences. Constantly having to drag the dead weight of Bill [ with a past present and future} around with her in these elections has crippled her chances, preventing her from promoting an inner core of being at peace with the world. Perhaps her general demeanor now is the void inside her. Not only the feminist voter who saw in Hillary their ideal candidate, but the "family" vote could have swung her way.
Check wikipedia- " love-hate relationship " Not only is it Bill and Hill to a T, it could mean MAII secretly loves us all here in Europe!
I sincerily hope that Hillary will soon depart the fray, giving politics a rest for a while, break the bond and pick up the pieces with a new partner.
Throw the teddy away Marcus- embrace the world. wma loves you[r prose] too. [ even if it did get banned by the moderator????]
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Even if, through some trick of the rules, she manages to win the nomination, the Democrats would have not a chance of being united for the general election. It's looking bad even now, when Clinton supporters are pretty sure that they've lost fair and square. Imagine how Obama supporters would react if the nomination was stolen out from under them by some committee! She'd lose against McCain all too easily.
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. At 2:42 pm on 01 Jun 2008, KRITGuy wrote:
Any person who lives in the US is acutely aware that Obama honestly does not stand a chance of becoming the next president without Clinton behind him.
Racism in America is pretty strong. I mean, very, very real.
I live here and I sick of this argument.
There is racism in America but it is not widespread.
It is just magnfied by race hustlers like Rev Wright, Farahkan and Jessie Jackson.
America is one of the most progressive societies in the world and I'm not ashamed to say it.
Look at who the last 3 Secretary of States have been?
African American Woman African American man, Caucasian woman.
Obama won't get elected because most reasonable people know that a Senator with less than a full term experience is unqalified.
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watermanaquarius
"...it could mean MAII secretly loves us all here in Europe."
You delude yourself waterman. For me, to know Europe is to hate it. I'd sooner die than than be condemned to live my life in Europe. And that doesn't even take into consideration what I see as inevitably about to happen to it. I'd sooner live in Canada if I had to make a choice.
I've looked at the grass on the other side and it is not greener. Happy is he who likes his own pasture best of all.
Try as he might, the moderator cannot make my postings any more moderate than they are. Not unless he wants to rewrite them himself but then they wouldn't be my postings.
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"Lipstick on a pig' was shouted by a Clinton supporter" ...
Excuse me, but how a person who yelled such an awful thing can possibly be called a Clinton "supporter"?
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I was surprised the Michigan decision was 69-59 delegates rather than 73-55 in favour of Senator Clinton. 73 was the allocation which the raw proportion of primary votes would have allocated to Clinton. My surprise was on the basis that those four deducted delegates could become a totem for complaints of bias and disenfranchisement to a degree which might outweigh their value to Obama in the overall delegate count (Ickes milked the decision in this way). Allowing those further four Clintion delegates would have offered an additional claim upon magnanimity for Obama.
There has been much speculation of a contest-deciding tranche of superdelegates announcing for Obama. Does holding out for 69-59 imply that the Obama camp expects its initial passing of the winning post to be by a very small margin?
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#8 righteousmistyfog - the questions from the press were quite wide ranging, and Mr Obama "ummed and aahed" throughout. It's not the first time that he has been seen without the benefit a script and it doesn't bode well for him for the future. If it was such a personal matter, why go to the trouble of having a press conference? He could have just as well issued a printed statement and referred the media back to it. His was a political decision which would have been best made after the Reverend Wright's remarks and not delayed until another minister embarrassed him.
#28 LesParke "There's absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to go the other way." If Clinton superdelegates can move to Obama, then Obama delegates can move to Clinton. Unless Mrs Clinton withdraws, which I think unlikely, there can be no final decision until August. It's not as if Mr Obama has an overwhelming lead, his majority is very fragile. It wouldn't take much for it to swing the other way. If the situation had been reversed, I feel sure that he would take it to the Convention, so why not Mrs Clinton? After all, that is the purpose of the gathering. Mr Obama can claim all he wants, but unless Mrs Clinton does withdraw or "suspend" her campaign, it's not over until late August.
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I had to laugh at the Obama mail to superdelegates which Justin quotes: "A number of people have reported that various members intend to endorse AFTER the last primary... those members need to understand that they won't get any visibility from that."
I get the impression that for a great many still-'undecided' superdelegates, invisibility is exactly what they want. Whatever their personal opionions, with the party so divided they don't want to be caught with their hands raised at just the moment that around half the party are looking for someone to blame...
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#38 MAII "For me, to know Europe is to hate it. I'd sooner die than than be condemned to live my life in Europe." That's such a sweeping statement as to be ludicrous. What parts of Europe have you ever lived in to know that during the rest of your life you wouldn't appreciate it? One country is not better than another; just as in the United States, every region is different. I suppose that if things became too awful for you, a membership of Dignitas in Switzerland might help, something not even America can offer.
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There is NO way to fairly allocate the Florida and Michigan votes without holding the primaries again because some people didn't vote, perhaps some voted for their second choice (in Michigan for example), perhaps some voted republican, et.c., etc. So, all that could be expected was to reach a compromise as to if/how to allocate the votes.
These two primaries were moved earlier because they didn't want Iowa and New Hampshire to always be the trend setters by being the first primaries/caucuses. This sounds reasonable to me, why should some states go first? I think there's a huge bias by holding primaries/caucuses at different dates. And then what about the votes that were cast for candidates that drop out as the season goes on?
All candidates agreed to not counting Florida and Michigan if they held early primaries, and both states had a chance to move their primaries back to avoid this 'punishment'. They went ahead and held the early primaries anyway, and now the punishment is not being enforced, so what's to prevent this from happening again?
The only way to avoid this in the future is to hold all primaries/caucuses on the same day.
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lesparke (28):
You are right that a loss of Florida alone is not enough to hand McCain the election, but losing Florida and Michigan will make it very close.
Out of the states you mentioned Obama being competitive in (Ohio, Iowa, North Carolina, Virginia, Missouri, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada), there are a few where I disagree with you. In NC, Obama hasn't led in any polls. In Missouri, he's only led in one poll, and that was back in February. In Nevada, he started out strong, but lost ground in every poll since. McCain now has a comfortable lead there. Obama is in a great position to take Colorado and Iowa, and can probably grab New Mexico too (although it's such a close state, you can never be sure of the outcome). As for Virginia, the last two polls were completely contradictory, one showing Obama up 7 points and one down 7 points, despite the fact that they were taken at the same time. Earlier polls show it as a safe red state. I'm not sure it's competitive.
That leaves two ways for Obama to win without Michigan: win Ohio or win Virginia and New Mexico (that will leave them tied 269-269, and ties go to the democratic house). Since the latter scenario involves turning a state that hasn't voted Democratic in 30 years and winning a toss-up state, with no margin of error, I think it's the less likely of the two.
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saintlymark:
The miami-dade elections in 2000 were counted and recouted three times and after each count, Bush won.
Any more recounts would have been a waste of the election workers' time and the tax-payers' money.
Democrats were acting like undiciplined children when they thought they could get away with a never-ending series of recounts.
And when Democrats tried to pull that stunt again in 2004 for Ohio, Kerry conceded rather than look like a sore loser like Gore.
Here's an interesting way to project the winner of the general election in November:
http://presidentelect.org/e2008.html#map
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Marcus,
I forgive you for reading my mail to ronaine. It still shows you care!!! Thats one small step etc
Completely and I do mean completely agree with you on the moderator thing. Every posting has a "complain about this comment " beneath it and like you I feel that they are jumping in too quickly. Perhaps one could suggest a 3 strike rule for offended readers per post printed, before it is removed. I have frequent questions regarding your comments but have never found any so extreme that they offend with my own ideas of free expressive journalism, and have never blackmarked any comment from anybody here. Many links of mine and I assume from you, Ed, David et al are from a good stock of posters who try to inform with honest everyday links in the public domain.- Nothing is recomended by us from the nonpedigree trivia sites.
That said on another point, I would insist you renew your passport and try a different country next time you visit Europe. France however beautiful is ever so slightly different from the rest. UK, Ireland, Holland, Germany, Portugal and Switzerland to name a few where conversation with the locals in english is always possible.
On the grass is greener front I have never unfortunately visited America but who knows. Between helping Mother Nature here and throwing sand in Father Times' eyes , I keep hoping.
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jalvarezv: I was submitting a response when your comments came out of pre-moderation, so I didn't get a chance to reply above. Holding primaries and caucuses on the same day would be a great idea. This is a national election for a presidential candidate and should be done like any other national election. Think of the advantages: Iowa and New Hampshire no longer having undue influence on the election process, campaigns that don't have to raise 200 million dollars, a significant amount of extra time to prepare for the general election, and most importantly, we get to hear less from the politicians!
The only thing I would add is that instead of having a mixed primary/caucus system, all states should follow the same format for their elections. Either go all caucus or all primary. My preference is for primaries, since turnout for primaries is much larger than for caucuses.
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#38 MAII "For me, to know Europe is to hate it. I'd sooner die than than be condemned to live my life in Europe." That's such a sweeping statement as to be ludicrous. What parts of Europe have you ever lived in to know that during the rest of your life you wouldn't appreciate it? One country is not better than another; just as in the United States, every region is different.
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politics is war but one should be careful about slander.
Saying that any nominee MAY be a terrorist should be backed up with hard facts. of which there are none.
The simple solution is to have all primaries on the same date.
and all results withheld until final counting is finished.
the same goes for the general election.no results until it is over.
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Couldn't help reposting this, just because
it's even more true now than when first
aired:
http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/05/12/snl-hillary-clintons-message-from-the-next-president-of-the-united-states/
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As to the euro hater who has spent much time deriding my life in the USA as one of sycophantic adulation of life here in the states i offer part of an earlier posting that was moderated
to MA11
" I came here because unlike you I do not care where I am. All places I have been seem pretty good.
I am here now and apart from idiots like you there are way too many nice people here to want to leave,just like there were way to many nice people in the UK to want to leave same Netherlands same Bulgaria and elsewhere.
The world is full of nice people. as long as your not an arrogant , abusive, ignorant ,(insert word used for describing people full of hate)
But you see I don't mind, I find people like you interesting,not as much as ants but still interesting.
America still has a respectable number of nice people, apathetic sometimes but none the less nice and with good heart.
You do not strike me as one of these nice Americans. You also do not strike me as important enough or relevant enough to bother leaving.
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Ed I enjoy your videos.
I heard Donna Brazile give a talk at a meeting before only women in Pennsylvania..this was before the current problems with selecting a presidential candidate..and she made a joke about talking to Bill Clinton on the phone..and part of what she said was , "be still my heart" She basically talked to us about her attraction to Bill Clinton ..
She is a super delegate and will have to declare for either Hillary or Obama... and she wants the superdelegates to follow the votes of the people.
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Hillary has some negative reactions now not only among conservative Republicans but also among liberal Democrats. I have no idea what she is thinking...
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watermanaquarius
I traveled in Spain and Portugal and I hated them. They were interesting to look at for a few days but that's about all. This was in the late summer of 1973. I was going to visit Italy but they had a cholera epidemic there. I've also been in Iceland, Luxembourg, and Belgium. Can't say I formed much of an opinion about any of them, I wasn't there long enough. I have renewed my passport recently because I had to make an unexpected business trip to Canada. It was OK. Going through immigration at the Toronto airport was not pleasant, the guy I had to deal with must have had a "thing" about Americans. A lot of Canadians do. I'm hoping I don't have to go back there again anytime soon.
David_Cunard, what part of Europe have I ever lived in? Bordeaux France. It was an interesting and learning experience. I also spent a short time in Paris. At the time New York City had a reputation for being the most unfriendly place in America but it was a model of a welcome mat compared to Paris.
Besides specific incidents, if I had to sum up my impressions of Europe compared to the US, I'd say it was small, tight, confining, old, cliquish in the extreme, and clearly no chance for anyone who wanted to accomplish anything in life starting from scratch on his own to get anywhere. There are certainly NO protections for consumers. Funny, 35 years later, a friend whose son has a temporary job with a London branch of an American firm is reporting the same things I saw back then. My dealings with Germans while I was in France not only made me conclude I'd never go there, it made me wonder why we didn't keep bombing them even though the war was over. I'm hardly surprised anti-semitism is still rife in some parts of Europe. BTW, in many cases I saw, the French didn't treat each other any better than they treat foreigners as far as I could tell. At the time, they were also still xenophobic about the Germans.
I think I've been in about half the American states and I felt at home in every one of them. I could live in just about any of them although I don't think Southern California quite suits my temperment. Regional differences seem a lot less to me now than they once did. I've been in over 40 countries. It won't bother me if I don't travel outside the US again. I've become world weary. I no longer feel any need to experience another place first hand. I think tourism travel is one of the most overrated industries in the world and business travel is no fun at all. Most tourists are just led around by the nose from one dead museum and monument to another without ever actually learing anything of substance about a country they've visited. You can get as much on a TV travellogue. I can certainly travel the canals of Venice in Las Vegas...without the stench.
waterman
The host of any web site has the right to run it any way he sees fit. If some postings break his rules and he decides not to publish them no matter how arbitrary it seems, that's the way it is, that is what you buy into when you post. I have no problem with it. I don't deliberately go out to break the rules, it just sometimes happens.
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bethpa, #54, she is thinking that she
wants to get every possible delegate
that she can from the primary process.
I don't know if she will suspend her
campaign, but she certainly will not
release her delegates.
If someone can dig up something awful
on Obama between now and the convention,
she can walk away with the nomination.
Who knows? Maybe Michelle is the first
black KKK member?
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#23/27 Obama and Al Qaeda - the biggest problem with such thoughts is that someone may take the matter into their own hands; no little wonder that he needs secret service protection, as does Mrs Clinton. When passions run hot there are always those who go beyond the conventional bounds of behaviour. It rarely works since the object of their hate then becomes a martyr to the victim's cause and provides greater legitimacy compared to when the individual was alive. The deranged mind doesn't consider the lasting outcome of the actions. We can only hope that those entrusted with protecting the candidates are ever vigilant and never have to take action themselves.
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If I were her, I'd be broadcasting the most hateful speeches of Wright and Pfleger juxtaposed with Obamas defense of them on TV all over America again and again (just as the Republicans probably will.) I'd make it clear to the convention and super delegates that if Obama is nominated he could not possibly get elected and I'd make it clear I would not support him. It would give the super delegates something big to think about, her or certain defeat in November. Now that's how you wage a real war....if you want to win.
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David_Cunard
Assassinatoin or even attempted assassination of any of the candidates would be a disaster for America. Obama can be defeated easily without violence because he is so vulnerable politically in so many ways. Even sitting presidents get attacked physically. Reagan was an example. But when do Obama's opponents take their gloves off and start slinging good old American mud at him? When do they stop worrying about being called racists because he is black and start taking him down because he is unqualified? I expect the Republicans to pick him apart. I don't particularly like HRC but I could see her as president. Obama? Never. The more I learn about him, the more convinced I am that despite his obvious intelligence and likeability, he is fatally flawed. He's got a lot of skeletons in his closet, it's time to bring them out into the sunshine.
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guns and religion #56
Hillary is playing a high stakes game because if she can not pull this off she has generated a lot of negative reaction to her and Bill among people who could be future supporters...like the people in Move.on
Even if she gets the nomination now ..people like me will not vote for her...she is so tainted imo by her association with corporations and by her support of the war in Iraq.
I don't trust her or what she says now and I voted for Bill twice and was happy when she ran for the senate.
If the Clintons are aware of this type of reaction by people like me..then their purpose is to divide and weaken the Democratic Party..at a time when the Democratic party was on the cusp of gaining some power.
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Bethpa # 53
Liked your "be still my heart"quote from a lovers / attraction point of view.
Could it not have been "Beast,. ill my heart" from a medical point of view?
" Is life worth living? That depends upon the liver" .
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marcus #58
You don't realize is how alienated some Americans are by the kind of politics you advocate.
The nation needs healing and you bring them war.
The nation is dividing.
Obama has the support of young people who are now forming their opinions of what America stands for..and what they have seen is the Bush administration and a war of choice for profit followed by torture of sometimes innocent people. Some have seen the news media lying and protecting guilty politicians. They can see the liars on youtube and no longer need the press as an intermeidary.
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bethpa, I never did like Hillary, although
I did like Bill when he was in office.
I have actually had HRC supporters
make the case to me that I should vote
for her precisely because she is so
unlikeable, the implication being that
we need someone like that to represent
us. Of course, whether one is part of that
"us" is a little muddier now than at the
beginning of her campaign.
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I can certainly travel the canals of Venice in Las Vegas...without the stench.
class after all that travelling you learned very little.
And with you attitude to people who are not american .no wonder.
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reuben33g
What was actually stopped was a legal count that was sanctioned by the Florida Supreme Court. The GOP did not want it to happen before the US Supreme Court heard the Gore v Bush case so Bush supporters broke in to stop the count. One of the reasons the Supreme Court supported the Bush case is that time had expired to reasonably count the votes before the Electoral college met. Thats not to say Gore would have won that recount mind, but the GOP stopped it even happening. The Republican case in that episode was based on not even counting the votes.
But actually the far more scandalous part of the Florida 2000 debacle was that so many people had had there names illegally taken off the roles, or in other ways were not even allowed to cast there vote.
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Marcus, # 55
Regarding foreign lands;-
For some unknown reason I have one of those faces that does not fit.
I travel abroad now and then and unfortunately always have a problem with customs officials. Average european but having a beautiful Chinese wife also does not help matters. I have been stopped as gun runner, drugs smuggler, butter and dairy produce smuggler, even fruit and vegetable smuggler at all the best airports and ferry ports but what do I care . I'm clean and only too glad these guys are there to try to catch the real baddies. Look on the bright side with everything is my motto. Even visiting Australia where they decide that our plane needs to be sprayed with an anti insect aerosol does not worry me. Maybe you looked like a ice hockey scout and the official was afraid you came to Canada to pinch a player from their league.
We, as men, go through the x-ray controle with just about everything undone , - no belt, no sweater, no shoes and with my stomach, - my pants falling to my knees. Who cares! Sad perhaps for the ladies who have to put up with a dog sniffing under their skirt at some airports but thats the price we all pay for the possiblility of a terrorist attack.
Enjoy it. We are a long time dead.
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#62 bethpa "Obama has the support of young people" - yes, but regardless of who becomes the Democratic Candidate, will they go to their polling places in November? Adulation is no good without action. I think one could guarantee that Mrs Clinton's supporters would exercise their franchise (one way or the other) but I'm not entirely convinced that those rooting for Mr Obama will do the same. The exit polls in November will be very revealing.
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The actions of the powers that be in the Democratic Party are directed at getting rid of the oppressive Clinton machine, not Hillary directly. Obama's rise is historic in that he has beaten a democratic machine rival and is likely to beat his republican machine opponent in the coming election. Obama's direct approach to the voters for support is unprecedented. The political game has changed, but Obama seems to have been the only candidate who knew it.
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This race has nothing to do with sexism or racism. The poke here and the poke there don't really matter. You guys are picking up on the grace notes and don't hear the melody. Washington is powered by an old-boy network, special interest groups, lobbiests and machine politics. The Clintons are a power in establishment Washington. Obama, whose backing is largely individual, unaffiliated supporters, is a reformer fighting the status quo. Clinton's loss goes beyond being kicked out of the race. It means the destruction of the Clinton machine. Without that power base, Bill's lucrative influence peddling is dealt a serious, perhaps fatal, blow. It is for this reason that the Clintons are desperate, and seemingly delusional, in their pursuit of the nomination.
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15. At 12:00 pm on 01 Jun 2008, OnlyHereForTheFood wrote:
I'm sure it's crossed her mind to go independent - it worked for her friend Lieberman - but the quite large problem of her lack of money would make it near impossible for her to run.
Some differences; the CT primary was hijacked by extremists funded by American hater George Soros.
Liebermann is one of the most respected Senators in America.
An independent campaign for Hillary benefits only one person John McCain.
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I'm with you waterman, there's a vulnerable first spear behind all that facade of a General...
;)
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Potential bribery seems alive and well amongst Mr Obama's newest converts. Governor Richardson is reported as calling Bill Ritter, Governor of Colorado, and saying "After June 3, it means nothing. Those who take a little bit of a risk, he’ll remember you." Obama's man - and thought of as a potential vice-presidential running mate - is suggesting that in return for his vote, a newly anointed president will favour Governor Ritter - a cabinet post perhaps, possibly an ambassadorship. Now we know the extent of the Obama campaign includes promises of things yet to come. Providing such an incentive to vote is usually considered to be a criminal act. And people think Mrs Clinton is devious!
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As an English woman I find the whole Democratic election process baffling. What century are you living in? You are an advanced nation. Communication is immediate. Why are you relying on a system designed in the days of communication by horse? Why not have all the elections on one day and forget about front runners etc. The amount of money being spent on campaigning is an abomination. I seem to remember a Health Care issue in the early days of Bill's administration - perhaps the poorest within your society would have benefitted from the money spent on this internal campaign? Surely your primary purpose is to remove the Republicans not destroy your Democratic apponent. Grow up. Make a decision. The rest of the world needs to know
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A sober reading of Mr Obama's electoral chances can be found in The Times. Despite the anticipation of a claim to victory, this article may understand the truth of the matter.
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A correction! A sober reading of Mr Obama's electoral chances can be found in The Guardian. Despite the anticipation of a claim to victory, this article
may understand the truth of the matter.
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We'll see, David, we'll see.
The betting is 3 to 2 in favour of BHO, so you could make some easy money.
;-)
ed
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David, #74, I would be interested in
the appeal of each candidate to independents.
Is there such a poll?
I would suspect that party membership
is at a low ebb, because each one has
drifted off to the right or left (by US
standards).
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JennyDev, #73: When you straighten out
the EU and have Europe-wide elections,
you'll see. This is not meant as a criticism,
just that in a large, heterogeneous system
it's not a simple matter to pick a leader.
Then, there is also the factor that our
politicians are basically lawyers, and they
don't seem to be good at anything requiring
real work. Otherwise, you wouldn't have
elections held up by chads hanging from
punch cards in a society which sent men
to the moon when computers were as big
as houses, and has a budget for secret
weapons about as large as the entire UK
defence budget.
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allmymarbles #69
has it right...
and #70 Magickern
Lieberman is very very VERY disliked by many Democrats. The people who like him are right wing Republicans. He is not respected at all by many Americans.
#73 JennyDev
The American system is broken. The elections are not fair, many of the computers used for voting can be tampered with..
The nation was lied into a war for profit and the American press corps helped with war propaganda...
Americans are in debt. The average American carries every month $13,000 in credit card debt alone...While we are fighting an expensive never ending war.
The US is owned by corporations that pay lobbyists to push through bills that benefit them.
Its all a house of cards.
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bethpa
Are you suggesting that if the mainstream elects a candidate that represents the will of the majority like McCain, the extreme left will go to war with the rest of us? We can build a thousand more GITMOs if we have to. I've been to Alaska and it is a very big empty place. Like Siberia, there is nowhere to escape to. We are already at war in case you have forgotten, a war for our survival unlike any other. If people like you don't want to fight, you are free to hide under your bed or pretend that it doesn't exist and go on like nothing is happening but that won't stop a lot of people from fighting and maybe dying to protect our freedom. That is how America was born and why it still exists. And a lot of innocent people on the other side will get badly hurt and killed in it, that is what war is about too. If I were you I'd switch my TV set to the Soap Opera channel and keep it there for the duration, maybe 50 years. The US stands for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...for its own people. And for some people the pursuit if happiness is the pursuit of money. And for others, it is getting into the cockpit of an M1A1 tank or an F-15. I saw one woman on the Discovery channel whose greatest thrill in life is to pilot her B-2 bomber. If the President of the United States gave her the order to nuke Moscow or Teheran, wild horses couldn't stop her.
JennyDev
America is not a little country like Britain or France. It is as far from New York City to Los Angeles and San Francisco as it is to London. The American nation is just too big to have all its primaries on one day. As for the cost, those who fight for their political cause feel it is worth it. This is not the tail like an EU country, this is the dog that ultimately controls the entire world's economy and security. How it plays out can make or break the personal fortunes of millions of Americans and alter the life and death of entire nations.
As for national health care, the last thing America wants is a system like they have in Europe or Canada. We don't want an NHS where people have to go on waiting lists for treatment. Treatment for medical conditions in the US is immediate. Our health care system is not broken, only the system for paying for it is. It will be resolved in its own good time by our democratic process, not by an EU like imposed edict. As for our political system, it is by far the most well thought out in the world. The world's oldest democracy isn't going to tinker with it because some people think all of lifes issues should be resolved in the time it takes to watch a two hour movie.
jacksforge, one thing they don't advertise in the slick travel brochures is the local stench. You don't find that out until you pay your money and actually get there. Lisbon and Madrid were horrible when I was there. Apparantly the locals are so used to it, they don't even notice it anymore, it's part of the landscape. And I have had my fill of endless "quaint" narrow little streets with three hundred year old houses on them and overpriced little "shoppes" selling the same old junk you see everywhere in tourist traps all over the world. I've already gotten the picture burned into my mind. Enough!
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There's just no pleasing that Marcus! I wonder if, being local to it, he can smell his own stench?
;-)
ed
"Adapt yourself to the things among which your lot has been cast and love sincerely the fellow creatures with whom destiny has ordained that you shall live. "
~~Marcus AureliusI
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79. At 00:47 am on 02 Jun 2008, bethpa wrote:
allmymarbles #69
has it right...
and #70 Magickern
Lieberman is very very VERY disliked by many Democrats. The people who like him are right wing Republicans. He is not respected at all by many Americans.
But as Liebermann said he serves the people of CT not the democratic party.
And most Americans are indepedents and that is who voted for him in his landslide victory afainst George Soros's lacky.
If the both parties had that philosophy the U.S would be in better shape. But the Dems are nominating one of the most partsian members of the Seante.
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Donna Brazille says Obama offered an olive branch
which was rebuffed:
;-)
ed
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"But as Liebermann said he serves the people of CT not the democratic party."
He also serves the people of
another "nation"
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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Delusional Clinton?
Clinton promises "No nominee on Tuesday"
"a slight lead? 152 or more!
xx
ed
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#80 Marcus
What you will get is a disillusioned America..which means fewer soldiers and less pride in the nation...and more crime.
You can not threaten people into being nationalistic Marcus
Didn't you know there are already detention centers set up by Homeland Security built by the KBR division of Halliburton, probably at the behest of Cheney. The Cheney who is rumored to have a place in Dubai after he leaves the vice presidency...
The detention centers are in the midwest...but the American corporate owned news media wouldn't talk about that..so you don't know about them. They cost the American tax payer $385 million. They are all set for the dissenters in free speech America
Imo you are a dangerous person because you are a war monger...and that puts us all at risk. Your first and only strategy is to use war. What you don't realize is how the Bush administration has damaged the American system of government and how a future president could use the programs set up by the Bush Administration to turn the US into a true fascist state. I am not using hyperbole.
Anyway you make an excellant case for me. I don't have to explain what many Americans are like. You are a prime example.
#82 MagicKirin
Lieberman is thought of as being a foreign agent whose interests are not in America. It frightens some people that he was close to being vice president. He is not respected by many in America.
The election results in 2006 for Lieberman were:
Lieberman 50%
Lamont 40%
Schlesinger 10%
So you are incorrect in your statement..
"And most Americans are indepedents and that is who voted for him in his landslide victory afainst George Soros's lacky."
There was no landslide victory for Lieberman.
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#62 (Bethpa): "Obama has the support of young people...." He's out of luck then. The young never turn out in meaningful numbers at the polls. Middle-aged, middle-class taxpayers set the agenda for elections.
#73 JennyDev: the primaries are a form of candidate hazing. We get to see their true colors because of this ordeal. Without it, we'd get a pure media candidate, a hollow nothing. The primary system weeds out the weak.
#84 Lieberman serves Israel why? Because he's Jewish? You're just an old fashioned crypto anti-Semite. Thank God you don't live in the USA anymore. Hopefully Jacksforge will join you soon.
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#76/77 Ed and G+R - you'll have to address your comments to 'Paul Harris in New York'. It's unusual for his publication to print anything detrimental to "their" candidate, so I rather appreciated that he described Mr Obama as "limping towards the finishing line."
#80 MAII - You're absolutely correct about the size of the USA - so many Europeans, and the British in particular, have little concept of just how vast is North America. I don't think they understand the several different time zones here. At one General Election (Reagan, Bush 1??) the result was called in the East before the Western states had finished voting, which later resulted in newscasts being very circumspect about forecasting the winner. In the UK, there is only one time zone and the polls open and close at the same time. It would be virtually impossible to have the primaries all on the same day and even if they waited until California's polls were closed, it would mean that New Yorkers would have to wait an additional three hours to know how their own candidates had fared. At the General (presidential) Election, it is only because of a tacit understanding between broadcasters that the projections are not made as a result of exit polls and no now network projects the Presidential winner lest it has to change its position, as happened with Gore-Bush.
The NHS is far from perfect, but it is a lifeline for all British residents. Its introduction was at a time when the world was far, far different, a time which WatermanA can remember. No-one anticipated the growth in population and later problems of immigration, let alone how life might be fifty years hence. It is odd that while the USA is searching for some kind of Universal Health Care, more and more of the NHS is being being considered for privatisation. Nevertheless, before 1948, just as in the US, all care was private and paid for individually, excepting for charities caring the indigent. Those who wish can still obtain private medical insurance which may result in faster treatment. As is said, "you get what you pay for", and NHS 'clients' pay very little for what they receive. It is in fact funded by general taxation, not the 'National Insurance' contributions made.
Although MA is correct about the geography of America, I cannot agree with what his nose finds objectionable. Whenever I've visited Venice I can't say that I have ever noticed a "stench" from the water, the smell of the Adriatic perhaps, but it's nowhere near worse than, say, Malibu and the Pacific. Lisbon is a delightful city, but it may depend on when he visited. If it was 30 years ago it would have been different, just as central London is now - a dirtier and more crowded town I have yet to visit, with hardly an English voice to be heard. I lived and worked there for many years when it was still a place to be loved, but the old lady is a bit frayed around the edges, her once golden tresses a little bit tarnished.
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bethpa, sue_catherine, it will be interesting
to see to what extent this election will
be settled by issues as opposed to
demographics. I am somewhat disappointed
at the extent to which the primaries
were determined by voter blocs, and
am hoping that independents vote on
positions that candidates present on issues.
That being said, I have a gut feel that
the youth vote turnout will be greater
this time in the past. Obama is able to
energise groups which have had low voter
turnout in the past.
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BTW, I think Europe is beautiful.
Just don't let Walmart ruin the place.
The last time I was there (2003),
everybody was very friendly, even
though there was a lot of popular
sentiment against the war. (This
was in France.)
One thing that people repeatedly asked
me was, "Why are you invading Iraq?"
Before I could answer (as if it mattered
what I thought), they would go on to
ask, "Why aren't you invading Saudi Arabia?"
Then, I was presented with this popular
urban myth that was circulating at the
time, that we were invading Iraq so that
we could subsequently invade Saudi Arabia.
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Sue_catherine,
This "old fashioned crypto anti-Semite" has a lot of company at Gush Shalom, Mideastweb.org, Tikkun, etc., in terms of attitude, but then they're all "self-hating Jews" to you, and like caucus states, they don't count any more than these "prominent American Jews".
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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bethpa #86
"you are a dangerous person because you are a war monger."
That puts me in good company. So were Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, and even Abraham Lincoln. They were dangerous people too. So Were Franklin Roosevelt and John Kennedy. In fact every President of the United States since Eisenhower has been prepared to kill one third of humanity to defend America. They are sworn to it. All of them very dangerous. Look at what they did to the USSR.
"What you will get is a disillusioned America."
You think you are unique? The flower people who said they'd make peace not war hippie generation of the 60s became the "me generation" of the 80s. Some people call it disillusionment. Others just call it growing up. I think the current generation is already obsessed with making money. They will not waste their lives stupidly the way the hippie generation did. Just watch their high school and college robot wars. One day they will build real robot soldiers to make war far more politically palatable to the squeamish like you. It will be hard to make a case that America's machines should not be parachuted by drone planes to foreign lands to defend America against terrorists when no US soldiers get killed in battle anymore. America's danger to those in the world hostile to the survival of its civilization has hardly begun. You can't stop it.
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there is racism in america.but i dont think that this impede Obama winning the election (well...he has obviously won the nomination).
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sue catherine
Have I also been called an anti semite? and why ? because Lieberman is jewish and has supported war to protect Israel? I've read reports in Harretz about his trips to Israel with his wife where he has clearly shown his own positions about Israel in his speeches there.
Let me again point out how Americans are trying to drive out other Americans who do not agree with them. This is a pattern of the right in its efforts to silence dissent.
People who do not agree with the right are anti American, anti semitic, hippies ..should leave the US etc..be put in detention camps
I bet Ed really likes Russ Feingold...and its based upon the policies that Feingold advocates and not his religion.
I would vote for Feingold for president in a heart beat. He is brilliant.
Lieberman comes close to being a foreign agent .
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marcus
Your view of history is distorted imo
““It is ‘better to jaw-jaw than to war-war,’”
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965)
remarks at a White House luncheon, June 26, 1954
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Some more old fashioned crypto anti-Semites and a primer on the situation in Palestine.
Salaam/Shalom
ed
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument
William G. McAdoo
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Beth,
I don't know Russ Feingold, but if you say I'd like him, I'm sure I will. I have a high regard for your judgement. We crypto anti-Semiites gotta stick together!
;-)
ed
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Russ Feingold?
"He was also the only Senator to vote against the USA PATRIOT Act."
I love him already!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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Ed #91: Support for a Palestinian state is something even Bush advocates. What is your point? Your post (#84) linked Lieberman to Israel with no argumentation whatsoever. Somehow I think that if Lieberman's domestic politics reflected yours, you'd be less concerned with his purported support of Israel at the expense of the US (something for which you have provided no evidence).
Bethpa#94: I've read your previous posts and agree with almost nothing you have said. However, I would certainly not support putting you in detention camps. You make this claim with no support at all. It's been my experience that no one is as intolerant of intellectual or political dissent as leftwing ideologues. This insight comes from several years spent in graduate school and working at universities. I'm sick to the backteeth of people whining and complaining about the USA while enjoying the fruits of living here.
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I don't think there will be a Palestinian state. I don't think anyone has made a very good case for one. I'll be glad when the whole idea is forgotten. Gaza can go back to being part of Egypt and what is left of the West Bank Israel doesn't settle or need for its defense can be returned to Jordan. As for Jerusalem, it's part of Israel forever. In fact, the Israelis are planning some new housing developments for their citizens in East Jerusalem right now.
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#100 sue_catherine
"However, I would certainly not support putting you in detention camps. You make this claim with no support at all. "
#80 marcus
"We can build a thousand more GITMOs if we have to. I've been to Alaska and it is a very big empty place. Like Siberia, there is nowhere to escape to."
....
I have spent thousands of dollars opposing Bush and his policies..and I then received a christmas card from Bush via the RNC. Do you think that was a warning to me..? considering what my views are? and the money I spent opposing Bush? The card was post marked from Crawford.
You do not know how vicious the right can be.
google:
detention camps +Homeland security
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Sue_catherine,
"Support for a Palestinian state is something even Bush advocates."
Have youn read the "road map"?
and the Israeli "reservations"?
And can then say with a straight face that Bush or Israel actually support the formation of a Palestinian state? Graduate School didn't do much good if you can.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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" I'm sick to the backteeth of people whining and complaining about the USA while enjoying the fruits of living here."
amazing how many people say the same thing about people like you when they meet a rude obnoxious american tourist .
And how many others say well if you do not like it then take your oil field out of our country and see if it still pumps oil for you.
Grow your own bananas .
Keep your own trash.
I'll be waiting on your answer to the question in 102 if they post it.
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#104: I don't know what Israel wants, and I don't particularly care. However, it seems to me that Bush's stated support for a Palestinian state is, in fact, able to be taken at face value. Why do you think otherwise? Because it's to be hoped that suicide bombings stop and some kind of responsible self-government occurs among the Palestinians as a condition for statehood?
#103: There is not one shred of credible evidence that Homeland Security is building a Gulag in North Dakota or Alaska for domestic dissenters. Yes, I think you are a bit paranoid. I have gotten junk mail from all kinds of political groups which which I disagree, mainly because I am a member of various university professional organizations that assume that I have leftish politics because of my employment. I do not consider this a a sinister conspiracy. Bush is going to be gone in a few months. Relax.
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Oh to the anti semite comment from that oh so educated sue
anti-Semite interesting word.
what does it mean and when did it come to mean that?
care to get back at me on that?
now do not make the mistake of not researching what your going to say.i will be waiting.
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#105: well they didn't post your question so I can't answer it. However, I seem to recall that in another thread you justified your continued yet reluctant presence in the USA by claiming that you wanted to exercise your vote to help change the course of the nation. If the US is as bad as you claim, well obviously you would know that your vote is meaningless. All the smart people know that the US is a rigged oligarchy, right? I have known several people who complain endlessly about the perfidy, corruption etc. of the USA but continue to stay here and draw a paycheck. I have nothing but contempt for such people because I know that if I lived in a country I hated and despised as much as they evidently hate the USA, I would never condescend to stay for any amount of money or "lifestyle opportunities." If I did stay, I would never have the cheek to lecture the natives on the morality of their system while I was ripping it off.
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Beth in 103
I was just saying to the missus that it was funny how all those that scream freedom and liberty are the first to also suggest detention camps and kicking people out.
True liberty seekers without any other motive they must be
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#105: well they didn't post your question so I can't answer it. However, I seem to recall that in another thread you justified your continued yet reluctant presence in the USA by claiming that you wanted to exercise your vote to help change the course of the nation. If the US is as bad as you claim, well obviously you would know that your vote is meaningless. All the smart people know that the US is a rigged oligarchy, right? I have known several people who complain endlessly about the perfidy, corruption etc. of the USA but continue to stay here and draw a paycheck. I have nothing but contempt for such people because I know that if I lived in a country I hated and despised as much as they evidently hate the USA, I would never condescend to stay for any amount of money or "lifestyle opportunities." If I did stay, I would never have the cheek to lecture the natives on the morality of their system while I was ripping it off.
This is slander good lady. how do yuo suggest I rip off this nation.?
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caturin
you should read more of the posts then. Your ability to analyse are about as good as Marcus erroneous '.
And I do not draw a paycheck I FORGE my money.
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Sorry spelling mistake Catherine,
My vote is as important as yours,lucky me.
But more important.I live here and unlike others I do not run away.
This is my home and my country and I am an american. you had better read a little more.
As for the"lifestyle opportunities."What are they.
I can find a nice swimming hole on Dartmoor.
Seeing as I live here I'll use the local one.
Just sit back and look at the joke of a comment you wrote.
In one line I'm drawing a pay check.
In the next I'm ripping the state off.
NO I am an honest person and I pay my taxes.I have never stolen anything. So with this slanderous statement do you have any proof that you can present as to my RIPPING OFF,
If I am not ripping off the system then can I complain.
Just as all americans do.It is our right to complain.Especially about the state.
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#114: I don't know you and I can't speak to your personal motivations. Nonetheless, I do not understand why foreigners who dislike the USA so much immigrate here and trash the place and the people. You accuse others of hypocrisy (see your post #109) and yet you are also hypocritical in your condemnations of a society that allows you to make a living at the occupation of your choice. At least expats like Ed put their money where their mouth is and leave. I can respect that.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the comment on the etymology of "semite." I know it refers, also, to Arabs (at least linguistically). However, in common usage "anti-Semitism" means what I have used it to mean. Lieberman was smeared as a "foreign agent" here for no other reason, as far as I can tell, than that he is Jewish. If he were an Episcopalian named Smith, I doubt that anyone would post a link to a map of Israel by his name, even if his policies were unchanged.
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when you get some time Sue i'd like to see what Your definition of anti semite is.
You accuse people and you may not be wrong ,though i doubt it.
come now don't be shy.
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I'll try again but in my own words..rather than using quotes
After the world trade center attack Cheney instituted the "continuity of gorvernment " plan ( COG). The Washington Post reported that this order put in place 100 managers who secretly lived outside Washington . No one knows what these managers are intended to do but they were put in place at the same time that Homeland Security started considering the program called "Endgame."
Edgame has some features that look similar to Rex 84 which was a readiness exercise for continuity of government in 1984. In Rex 84 FEMA was to round up 400,000 people supposedly illegal aliens.
Anyway what some civil libertarians are worried about is that there is a plan in place to round up dissidents and put them into concentration or detention camps...and call the dissidents ... terrorists.
And if you think that is crazy then look again at the photos of the torture done by American servicemen. What some people think is those techniques for torture were taught by a group of CIA agents who traveled to different areas teaching how to use water boarding etc.
Under the Bush administration there have been some incredible developments that are affecting the underlying stuctures of the American government.
Now should I have received a Christmas card from Bush when I think like this?
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There are christians also who have acted as foreign agents for Israel ..and they believe in the end times and look forward to the destruction of Israel even as they help Jews immigrate to Israel.
Some of these Christian extremsts believe the world trade tower was destroyed because of the immorality of the US..yet this group of Christians is considered american while my criticisms are called anti American?
I don't know ..how can one write these things without sounding crazy..but its a crazy world..and people are being driven by religious beliefs which are strange.
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#115: the "system" is not the "state." The "system" is the whole network of laws, manners, mores, and expectations that guide a society. A large part of the system is outside the state/government. From your posts it is obvious to me that you really dislike the culture and people of the United States, along with its economic and legal frameworks. Since you were not born here and did not grow up here, , I am at a loss to understand why you came and why you stay. I say this with the understanding that you do not owe me or anyone else an explanation of your life choices; but you're so militant, I can't help but be confused.
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sue you say immigrate here
are you making assumptions here?
s to the semite comment ,you have got more sense than others.
However you refer to the "common useage"
ANti semite historically refered to all semites.
As you seem to partially understand.
but now that the word anti semite has been hijacked by the zionists deliberately ,and others through a lack of knowledge ,how do the rest of the semites describe their oppression.
Now that we cannot refer to the arab bashing so prevalent here in the USA as Anti-semite.
What term should we use.
The rest of the semites cannot even describe their suffering and you plainly like millions of others don't get it.
The word was "Hijacked" back at the turn of the last century by the zionist. And whats more its use as to mean only jewish suffering is a sign of either ones ignorance or ones prejudice.
As for everyone having to come here with evidence agian, get real this is not a court room.Whats more there are not many who would doubt his support for Israel --That is after all why they support him.
There must be other jewish senators.If not well that is a slap in the face of america.
Showing their racism.
I am not anti -Jewish, I am anti zionist.
I would rather be friends with and neighbour to a Jew than make them feel they have to leave the country to go find their "own home" in someone else's farmstead.
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As to my status as an american. Ihave argued for this country with brits in britain more than you ever have,I suspect.
I am now and always Have been american.
And I still can see it's faults.
They exist and as such should not be ignored.
Just because I have a more worldly view does not make me anti american.
And as to being so millitant.
I am not the one saying everyone can suffer as long as I'm OK jack.
I have not said all americans deserve to suffer.
and if you have read Marcus Erronious and still judge to have a go at me then you do not know the meaning of militant. I believe it is probably derived in some part from militARY.
and all MA2 talks of is sending others to fight.
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I see you and MA2 as flip sides of the same coin. MA2 talks about how much he hates Europe and how it's all going down the tubes, etc.; you, Bethpa, Ed etc. talk about how much you dislike the US and how it's all going down the tubes,etc.
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The US had great promise..but its citizens do not stand up for principles that should have been learned in school.
Instead people are more interested in making money.
but maybe that is just human nature...people care more about their own lives
I just expected more of a reaction from Americans about being lied to about a war and seeing fellow Americans have their lives destroyed for a war of choice over oil.
The American leadership has disappointed me and the people have not demanded answers. The news media still has not accounted for the propaganda they used to support the war.
But maybe I am wrong and this Bush administration is just a blip ...I'd rather be wrong ...
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"I see you and MA2 as flip sides of the same coin. MA2 talks about how much he hates Europe and how it's all going down the tubes, etc.; you, Bethpa, Ed etc. talk about how much you dislike the US and how it's all going down the tubes,etc."
yea cause it is, and I would rather it didn't. not america or anywhere else.
That's the difference. And this is why America gets so much hassle.
America needs to go on a twelve step program.
"Hi my name is United States of America,I'm an aggressive country."
" I've been aggressive for X years now."
They do not have to walk around the whole time shouting"I'm Not PIthed Are yo'll calling me a drunk?
You seem strangely reasonable.
curious.
there are some things that take some longer to accept. like global warming.
Wars wrong
Providing people what they need , basics , for millions is better than wasting Billions$ and killing thousands to get vengence is wrong.
By the way I am not free in America though I am and always have been an American.
And I was never railroaded by a cop and judge anywhere else.
The worst treatment by the state and in employment has been by the USA.
SO sorry .make it better and we might like it more.
As it is I will earn my own money live with out the doc and enjoy my pets as I could do anywhere else.
Europe is not great (though 1/2 the co2 per capita depending on country).
But america is only for the rich. sorry ,that's capitalism for you. and the rich here are like slave owners if they think that is OK.
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#3 The only way delegates are going to switch is if a real big skeleton falls out of Obama's closet.
And I mean real big, not a side issue like his pastor but a real misdemeanor. And not just based on rumour and innuendo but real facts. Obama has already survived accusations about his links to Sadaam's money-launderer Auchi - it would take something real bad to floor him now for the Democratic nomination.
As it stands I can't really see that happening not unless somebody somewhere is keeping something back.
That being said, I still think he will lose in November the when the GOP attack dogs are let loose.
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I would like to apologize to all of you for my fellow American, MAII. He, and others like him, is the reason I no longer see the American Flag as a symbol of freedom and pride, but rather of inequality and greed. Please know that there are many of us fighting against backwards views like his. We shall overcome.
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jacksforge
you say America is going down the tubes but you can't be pried out of here with dynamite. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words. You may have become an American citizen but in my book you are no American, not in any real sense. You still have all the European psychological baggage you brought with you and you will be burdened with it for the rest of your life. In fact with dual citizenship, your loyalties are still clearly divided. I do not know why that is even allowed. I thought when you become an American citizen and take the oath, you have to denounce allegience to all other flags and nations. I'll bet you'd still courtsey or bow or whatever Brits do to the queen.
Ed Iglehart
Your views would fit in perfectly...with the Third Reich. You may have been born in the USA but you are no American in my book either.
Bethpa
Those who call your views "anti-American" have hit the nail right on the head. You could be Ed Iglehart's clone.
Milwaukeen
Speak for yourself and only for yourself. Greed is my right to the pursuit of happiness. It is what has made America great. That is what freedom is about, the right to keep what is yours. In Europe anyone who strives to better themselves gets their rewards taxed away from them to support a continent of losers. That is why it is becoming impovrished, why it has fought so many wars against each other to steal what it couldn't get any other way, why it tried to steal what belonged to the rest of the world through is Imperial slave empires, and why anyone born there with a brain and and ounce of ambition leaves for a place like America. That is what jacksforge is loathe to admit. People come to America from all over the world and make their lives far better. If you as a native American can't don't blame the system or your fellow countrymen who can, put the blame squarely where it belongs, on yourself.
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re: #76 Ed Iglehart
The site you point to is not worth much, as it is all done with "funny money" and none of the "voters" have any stake in anything.
You might try looking at intrade dot com, which is a real futures market and appears to require people to invest real money, thus likely making the results a little more credible.
As of this writing, the odds are:
Dem nomination - Obama 91.4 Clinton 7.9
Pres election - McCain 36.1 Obama 57.7
Obviously, the only constant one can rely on is that of change, so this is merely speculative entertainment at this point. It is also interesting to track the history of the changes since Oct 06.
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Sue_catherine,
"I doubt that anyone would post a link to a map of Israel by his name, even if his policies were unchanged."
It was a map of Palestine.
"However, it seems to me that Bush's stated support for a Palestinian state is, in fact, able to be taken at face value. Why do you think otherwise?"
So, we should take everything Bush says at face value? Have you read the Road Map yet?
"Because it's to be hoped that suicide bombings stop and some kind of responsible self-government occurs among the Palestinians as a condition for statehood?"
Only if they elect somebody we approve of, mind, and never mind that the Israeli "Defense" Force has killed 69 CHILDREN this year (through April), while no Israeli child has been killed by any "suicide bombers".
Marcus seems to believe some sort of statute of limitations should apply, and that after some suitable period of time, say 60 years, the violent expulsion and dispossession of almost a million innocent folk
can safely be forgotten and their rights expunged. Why am I unsurprised?
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
Minds are like parachutes-they only function when they are open
Thomas Dewar
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Interesting, It seems links to B'Tselem, the Israeli Human Rights Organisation, are not acceptable to the Moderators.
Hmmm
ed
P.S.
never mind that the Israeli "Defense" Force has killed 69 CHILDREN this year
(through April), while no Israeli child has been killed by any "suicide bombers".
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Peter,
I know it's only 'play money', but the odds are precisely the same as the 'real' money betting (actually, it's intrade doing the play money for WSJ and rasmussen too ). Just as well, because I had $300 'play money' on Obama winning Puerto Rico at almost 30 to one. Of course I lost.
;-(
ed
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How Presidential Drama Could Unfold In Front Of Jewish Lobby
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Marcus
I want an America that has good human rights and does not torture innocent people or wage war for profit. I want an impeachment hearing to get at some of the truth.
To be called anti american by you is a compliment. Imo you have a very limited sense of morality. ( I want it ..its mine ..give it to me or there will be war) And if anyone was a fascist it would be you. You are willing to round up people who disagree with you and put them in detention centers.
To paraphrase Pastor Martin Niemöller's famous poem:
First they came for the Muslims,
but I wasn't a Muslim so I did not speak up.
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ou say America is going down the tubes but you can't be pried out of here with dynamite. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words. You may have become an American citizen but in my book you are no American, not in any real sense. You still have all the European psychological baggage you brought with you and you will be burdened with it for the rest of your life. In fact with dual citizenship, your loyalties are still clearly divided. I do not know why that is even allowed. I thought when you become an American citizen and take the oath, you have to denounce allegience to all other flags and nations. I'll bet you'd still courtsey or bow or whatever Brits do to the queen.
AGAIN YOUR IGNORANCE AMAZES.
READ AGIAN THEN THINK.
"I AM NOW AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AN AMERICAN"
I did not become american.
I was and am,An American.I am proud to tell you.
And if someone disses america they had better just pick a topic that is correct(americans are all like Jerry Springer guests,not being one).You are.
Most people have enough genuine reason to deride the states that I do not find myself arguing with too many of them.
As to the contradiction of me writing what I do and being proud to be american.I am proud because I have a surety that america is learning.america realises that your sort are dinos and we know how they ended up.
I am here it is because I am not chased out of everywhere i go(i suspect you were).
I say places until I decide to travel, but unlike you being a tourist is not on my agenda.
I travel to the experience a place. to experience a place you should try to live there,gives most people a better feel for the place.
get honest with yourself it is true you love Europe.
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or will they not give you a visa for you are full of hate speak.
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I think the big question going forward is going to be "Where will Clinton fit in?" rather than "Will Clinton support Obama?". It would be political suicide for her to do anything other than fully support Obama.
So it becomes a matter of how far Obama must reach to bring Clinton's supporters on board, and how much he risks disillusioning his supporters by doing so.
Clinton has, unfortunately, come to represent the old establishment to many of them (perhaps even moreso than McCain). Having her as the VP would give them pause.
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While they are colleagues in the senate, Joseph Lieberman is not Hillary Clinton's friend.
Don't forget that Lieberman endorsed John McCain, because Obama and Hillary are on the wrong side of the issues which matter the most to him.
Of the States Les Parke said would swing for Obama, only Iowa leans toward Obama
Ohio, Virginia, Missouri, Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada all lean towards McCain.
And North Carolina is solidly McCain's; so sayeth James R. Whitman:
http://presidentelect.org/e2008.html#map
Hillary has ruined her party's chance at the presidency, she won't be asked to be Obama's VP because she's burned her bridges with his supporters, and after she looses her senate seat because she's her party has had enough of her shinanigans, her political career will finally be finished.
If Chelsea decides to follow in her parent's footsteps she needs to increase her own political experience.
The best political career path she could follow is to start local like a city council member, then small town mayor, state legislature, US House of Representatives, US Senate, State Governor, and finally run for President of the United States. That could take decades, and although she'll be old enough to run in 2016, she won't be ready. If she chooses to start in a local area, historically known to vote for her parents, her Clinton name will not be as much as handicap as it for her mother now.
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Yo Phaedrus!
Good points, but have you any further thoughts?
A Clinton VP running-mate would be suicidal, perhaps in more than one way. As has been mentioned elsewhere, Obama would need a food-taster for sure.
I've got quite a lot of "play money" bound up in short-selling HRC VP contracts...
Shanthi
ed
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I like Zinni for vp : )
Read about his new book at Amazon
its called
"The Battle for Peace: A Frontline Vision of America's Power and Purpose "
small quote from Amazon...
this volume provides the former U.S. Central Command chief's analysis of America's current global position.
Zinni begins by asserting that America's status as "the most powerful nation in the history of the planet" has created a de facto empire.
The U.S. has no choice: if it fails to take the lead, nothing significant happens. At the same time, Americans must recognize that, in a global age, there can be no zero-sum games: when someone loses, no one wins in any but the shortest term, he argues.
The bulk of the book critiques what Zinni describes as the current U.S. emphasis on unilateral action and calls instead for working with others toward the goals of worldwide stability and development. "[N]egotiation, mediation and facilitation" should be our favored approaches,
.....
Zinni will shore up any weaknesses Obama has with much of the electorate
And Zinni could concentrate on the Israeli/Plalestinian problem
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Marcus,
"I know you are a Hamas sympathizer. Every other word out if you is more hatred for Jews and Israel."
You're almost half right. i am no lover of Zionism. I guess half right is to be expected from someone with your wit.
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Would`nt you think having reached this bizarre outcome somone might have seen this coming and contingency plans would be in place for such an event. Has it been beyond the wit of thinkers in the party to have been mulling about this, or like the half vote, is thinking done with half thought in half a brain as the party tears itself in half. Showing on that fixed almost unreal smile, does Clinton know something the rest of us don`t, that makes her hang on in there, that just might have America looked upon, even though the outcome is won ....as, shame on you.I trust and hope not.
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I am late into this particular fray, but - half a vote!!!! Give me a break!!!! I watched the Rules Committee go about its business, and I thought that the tumultuous, out of control meeting to try to mollify Dems in Florida and Michigan was indicative of the shambles that the national party is in. Their convention has all the earmarks of a prize fight. I'm looking forward to the blood-letting - it bids fair to make for good television.
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At this moment of triumph for Obama and the Democrats, McCain and the Republicans will do their worst, starting with the matter of experience. Which takes me back to George H. W. Bush and 'the vision thing'. Obama might be well-advised to consider just that sort of oblique reply, updating Reagan's 'There you go again' at the same time.
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