Haunted by Iraq
This complaint by the White House against NBC contains an interesting sub-plot: the sore question of whether the Iraq conflict is a civil war or not. Remember all the fanfare over NBC's decision that it was?
I must say, I thought at the time that it showed the rather self-regarding pomposity of some of my US colleages - now it comes back to haunt the station with the perfectly reasonable question: "Why didn't you give as much publicity to the end of the civil war (in your terms) as the beginning?"
Who would Jesus vote for? No doubts here.
Barack Obama's defence of his wife contained a barely coded warning, I thought - go for Michelle and Cindy McCain becomes fair game. Is that what you want?
Meanwhile, the FT has a fascinating and important piece on energy - proof to me that the US is capable of grappling with its problems and making the changes necessary.
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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MSNBC is a disgrace, particularly Keith Olbermann, this is not a journalist but a agent of propaganda. dog.
Justin: If you acted in a way the above does you would not work at the BBC anymore. Why is this outright bias tolerated.
I call for Keith Olbermann's resignation!
I call for Keith Olbermann's resignation!
I call for Keith Olbermann's resignation!
Compared to Olbermann, Sean Hannity seems reasonable. Now think about that, normally does that make sense......you know the rest....
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finally no broken links and a better photo.
My message:
FT piece is subscription only!
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Justin, your link to the Financial Times brings up this message: "You have viewed your allowance of free articles. If you wish to view more, click the button below." So doing gets one to the subscription page.
NBC, one of the three major networks (not simply a 'station') has suffered from Obamophilia throughout the campaign and has demonstrated its bias frequently; it is no secret that there is no love lost between NBC and The White House. Inappropriate editing seems to be a speciality of television news - remember the fuss about Annie Liebowitz and The Queen's purported huff?
I would think Michelle Obama is as much fair game as her husband; as his closest confidant and adviser she can be criticised as much as Bill Clinton has been. I have yet to read of Mrs McCain saying anything but appropriate words; despite her wealth, she does not appear to have anything of Leona Helmsley about her.
Lastly Justin, do use a spell-check before posting on your blog or you'll give the British educational system a bad name, the word is 'colleague'.
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Chewbaccadefense, Keith Olbermann did come on quite strong against George Bush, but I have to disagree with you on this. I believe Keith was absolutely RIGHT in everything he said! George Bush LIED to the American public about Iraq; He lied to the world when he sent Colin Powell to the United Nations to present "evidence" about the WMDs in Iraq.
George Bush IS THE embarassment, and not Keith Olbermann - who has simply called him out (as nobody else wanted to do it!, apart - of course - from Obama and those few who were against this illegal war from the start).
I wish there were more Journalists like him around. This way, no leader would get a free ride.
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Olbermann, yes he's a blowhard, but he makes a decent foil for O'Reilly, but it's just entertainment, don't confuse it with political discourse.
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re: #3 David Cunard
Gotta disagree with you about NON-POLITICIAN spouses (i.e., excluding Bill Clinton, for example).
Cindy McCain has several unsavory incidents in her background but nothing (to my knowledge) that touches on politics. Michelle Obama may or may not have "bad stuff" in her background, but, again, nothing (to my knowledge) that touches on politics. I agree with Justin that Obama made a not so thinly-veiled threat in that interview. From what I understand about Mrs. McCain's past, the Republicans would come out on the short end should spouse trashing become an issue.
The American press is already way too interested in trivialities about candidates rather than real issues. I suggest that stories about the pasts of the spouses would erode the quality of real issues coverage even more than it already is.
re: NBC, Olbermann, etc.
I must say that Olberman is obnoxious, over-the-top, sanctimonious, and many other adjectives that probably would not pass the censors; I make an effort to not watch his program. However, I also have to agree with DrCahil: Olbermann tends to talk truth to power. I read transcripts of his editorial comments from time to time, and I have found him to be brutally honest in his criticism du jour, towards both Republican and Democrats (admittedly mostly Repubs, though). That cannot be said for other "journalists"/commentators in the American media.
In short, the problem with Olbermann is the messenger, not the message. Until and unless he improves his "rabid dog" style, he will remain a marginal influence in the media.
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#3 David_C
Yes i get the same message, after just 2 lines of text, on the FT link
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Iraq is in the midst of a civil war between the US supported government and those who are opposed to that government, precisely because it is backed by the US.
When the US withdraws from Iraq, Al Sadr's supporters will overthrow Bush's puppet Iraqi government and bring in their own (which they've already set up as a shadow government).
There are enough real issues for the candidates to discuss without picking on the candidates spouses, Bill Clinton is different in that his administration is an example of what Hillary's could be like.
Obama and Hillary's almost identical platforms give McCain an advantage in that he can treat them both equally; He does not have to tailor his campaign for one or the other depending on who gets the nomination.
I especially like McCain poking fun at himself and his opponent's criticisms of him, when he appeared on SNL on May 17th.
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Who would Jesus vote for? You asked for it, Justin, so if you are sitting comfortably, let us begin!
CANDIDATE 1
Hillary:
Clinton further displayed tough talk in an interview airing on "Good Morning America" Tuesday. ABC News' Chris Cuomo asked Clinton what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
"I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," Clinton said. "In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."
Jesus:
You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Source:
Matthew 5: 43-45, New American Standard Bible
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Justin,
"proof to me that the US is capable of grappling with its problems and making the changes necessary."
You're easily convinced!
somanydianas , David, kecsmar,
Subscription (to the FT website) was free the last time I looked. I just logged in (subscibed years ago) and the article was there to read.
I accept all the characterisations of Olbermann above, but I still enjoy him, and I agree there's very little untruth in him.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#9 Adrian
You're right, Hillary clearly hasn't read the New Testament. Also, if she still thinks that she's going to win, then God must work in mysterious ways, particularly as the the "America!" souvenir shops at Dulles International and Reagan National airports have already begun selling Hillary 3008 merchandise at half price -http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/sign-of-the-tim.html. I assume that's a bargain for nostalgia freaks only ...
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Who would Jesus vote for? Well, the Clinton campaign compared Bill Richardson to Judas in his support of Obama. Perhaps Clinton will get some divine inspiration and bow out gracefully rather than continuing to hurl stones and play the martyr to the detriment of her party.
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Bias? I have yet to see an American TV network that is not biased either towards the conservatives or the liberals (Reps or Dems). When we want unbiased news, we come here to the BBC, that's why we're posting on this blog isn't it? On the point of the "Civil War" it all comes down to if you're in favor or against this government...I think it wasn't a complete issue of pomposity...It was a fact that most of us (and I bet it includes you JUSTIN) at the time thought it actually was a civil war. It's like the White House and the right slanted TV networks/Press refusal to call this a recession...Don't we all feel it actually is? Of course there will be a time when we get through it, but can you say there's an actual ending point for it? It's not the end of a war, when there's a surrender or something of the sort. It's the same situation of a myriad other conflicts throughout the world, unless there's a definite truce, you can't say the civil war is over, things get better and get worse. Things should be called for their name, not euphemisms, civil war, recession, if not, we end up like we are, argumenting and making futile cases about the wrong issues. That's the tactic of many (not just this one) governments, they distract the public (through their TV networks/Press) with a discussion about terminology, instead of trying to find, who's to blame and how we fix it. That's why there's so many ignorant Americans, because they believe everything they see on TV...Justin, keep it up, love the blog...
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"Who would Jesus vote for?
Nobody !
But I think we will all soon hear his remark "Present! And Dad's watching and listening too"!
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An interesting and fuller examination of the White House Letter of complaint about "selective editing"...
On a point of clarification, Shrub keeps saying Ahmadinejad "wants to destroy Israel" and suchlike, when what he said (in Farsi) was that Israel would be wiped off the map of history - a prediction, rather than a threat.
Full text of the White House letter.
;-)
ed
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It seems to me more a case of being embarrassed rather than haunted. One powerful institution having a pop at another over terminology and perception - rather than acknowledging the nasty reality on the ground in Iraq.
I agree with macuna's point about the obscuring of real issues through trivial discussions played out in the media. Much like this primary season.
Is there civil war? Of course. Did our blundering US/UK regime change attempt trigger it? Of course.
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America is in a news bubble. There is no fair news station. The corporate news media waters down important news so that people THINK they have information but there is little depth to the reporting and important stories are ignored.
Keith Olberman is great and other than the Daily Show, one of the few sources of balance on the tv stations..and thats why he is a target. But if he is removed it will become more clear the US has no freedom of speech on its air ways. (as if the removal of Donahue wasn't clear enough)
There is a feud going on between Olberman and Fox news
You can read about it here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/18/AR2008051802313.html
And there are many of us who would not be surprised if the Right murdered Obama. These people have no boundaries. They play to win however they can.
Thats why the comment by that idiot Huckabee was incredible and worthy of note. Politicians have been assasinated in the US
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY
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Too much triviality and too many points being played over and over by the media. No I don't want to hear about anyone's wife. I want to hear about the issues.
the USA and the world are in big trouble. Why is the media playing around with stories that really have nothing to do with this election??? HilLIARy needs to bow out so we all can concentrate on one of the most important elections in the country's history.
I do believe the media has gone mad this election and are taking every trivial event they can and blowing it into a front page story. Let's have some real reporting on the real issues.
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Michelle Obama seems to have an internal conflict. Is she really capable of feeling positive about the US government? Is she capable of feeling satisfaction with her life? I don't think so. This may be the result of the Black struggle in America and a legacy of her generation, which has achieved success but is close enough to feel the pain of segregation.
What would be a first for many Americans is having a first lady who doesn't overwhelmingly (at least outwardly) feel pride in our country. We expect our presidents and first ladies to be patriotic and to hold our country in high regard. This is where Michelle Obama presents yet another question mark in Obama's campaign.
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And the Bush Administration and its Pentagon have been caught putting propaganda into the US news media repeatedly.
This is but one example;
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3349
Pentagon Pundits
Media facilitate Iraq propaganda effort
a sample quote
"The military analysts' ties with military contractors and pro-war advocacy groups had been documented as far back as 2003, when The Nation (4/21) reported that prominent analysts like NBC's Barry McCaffrey and Wayne Downing were among the pundits who "have ideological or financial stakes in the war. Many hold paid advisory board and executive positions at defense companies and serve as advisers for groups that promoted an invasion of Iraq." As the Nation reported, McCaffrey told MSNBC viewers early in the war, "Thank God for the Abrams tank and... the Bradley fighting vehicle." Unbeknownst to viewers, McCaffrey was sitting on the board of a company called IDT, which received multi-million dollar contracts related to both of those pieces of military hardware. "
And this is not being reported and discussed on the tv news.
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ukcowgirl
The tv media is owned by corporations that are involved with promoting the run up to the Iraq War.
This is not a real news media The news is being distorted in America. The trivia is a diversion so that Americans do not discuss real issues.
And their ratings have been dropping. One of the ways still left to get real information is with the internet and the corporations are trying to get rid of net neutrality so that the internet can also be controlled.
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Thanks once again to Ed - this time for clarifying Pres. Ahmadinejad's statement.
On a similarish theme, the Republic of Ireland for some time refused to recognise the existence of the partition.
"In the 1937 Constitution of Ireland, Articles 2 and 3 declared that the "territory of the state is the island of Ireland, its outlying islands and its seas". Clearly, this was not the case in fact or in law, as determined by the terms of the Anglo Irish Treaty of 1921. This claim to the territory of Northern Ireland was deeply resented by its majority Unionist population. However, a part of the Belfast Agreement (1998), the Irish government agreed to propose an amendment to Irish Constitution and campaign in its favour in the necessary referendum. This, the Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, changed Articles 2 and 3 was approved by a very large majority. Article 3 now states that "a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. "
Just as well we had leaders with the foresight to talk - yes, even Margaret Thatcher - rather than simply threaten obliteration. Mind you, 60 years of war by attrition is tiring. As they may find out in Iraq, and as they are doing in Sri Lanka.
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AndreainNY,
I fancy I know exactly what Michelle meant when she made the "first time I've felt proud" remark. It may have been an overstatement, but I, too, am immensely proud of my country for having not only produced the Obama candidacy, but for the fact that we may finally elect someone with a perspective not restricted to the continental USA.
It is exhilarating, and I can forgive her for overstating the case, but of course, in this see-all-24/7-on-camera age, nothing gets missed (or fails to get mis-interpreted)
;-(
ed
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The people who are critical of Bush are removed from the airways or never get to speak at all. I have never heard Bishop Desmond Tutu speak about his views on the Iraq war on American tv, although I did hear him speak at a peace rally. On Fox news they said he was senile. He was forceful.
We now can see the BBC news on our PBS stations and it is a breath of fresh air. Finally some international news on American tv.
"As former CNN chief news executive Eason Jordan explained (4/20/03):
"I went to the Pentagon myself several times before the war
started and met with important people there and said, for instance, at CNN, 'Here are the generals we're thinking of retaining to advise us on the air and off about the war,' and we got a big thumbs-up on all of them. That was important.""
Eason Jordon was removed from his position at CNN.. a supposedly "liberal" news source.
There is no liberal tv news media in the US.
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Cease Fire?
Are y'all listening, David and the rest of die-hard Hillary supporters?
I hope so.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Hi Ed
Did you know that the day that the Democrats
choose their nominee for president, August 28th, is the 45 th anniversary for Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream " speech.
What an opportunity for Obama to give a great and historically significant speech.
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MSNBC- also known as the Moonbat-Soros NBC is in the tank for Obama.
Obermann is a hate monger who belonged on the bankrupt Air America and Mathews want to have Obama's love child.
they are as legitimate as Al Jazeera
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#9 Adrian_Evitts Amen
Who would Jesus vote for?
(a.) H. Clinton
(b.) B.Obama
(c.) J. McCain
X (d.) None of the above
Dylan said it best, "the times they are a changing"
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Someone who says that 'Matthews want (sic) to have Obama's love child" calls Olberman a "hate monger."
Looks to me like MagicKirin is the hate monger.
I'm up in Canada now and you know what...sometimes they view stories from Al Jazeera on their tv.
Its called freedom of the press. You may have heard of it. In free nations they hear all the points of view. A free press is an important foundation for a true democracy.
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bethpa:
You've got to be kidding. Critique of Bush is all you hear on any network except Fox. Even there at times something comes through. It's what is sad - it is now "cool" to criticize Bush. So many do it without thinking, without due analysis of events. And if you read history you see the same happening with every president, in fact I'm willing to bet that the same will happen with McCain, and if, God forbid, Obama wins, the same will take place with him. Only then our hypocrisy will not let us say he was wrong because he's black. God forbid we come across as racist. We'll only say that all the evil white people didn't let him do anything.
And on King. That is so sad. Blacks of America have squandered away all King stood for, education, hard work, integrity. All that's left is laziness, crime, opportunism. And all that Obama can is really come up with some cheesy meaningless and pompous speech that will be forgotten next day. Moderate away!
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newBoda
When have you heard anyone say "Impeach Bush"
The corporaste media is driving into the skid. The public has turned against Bush so they are forced to recognize that in some meaningless way, while they push trivia and repeat stories ad nauseum.
On one of Matthews shows Andrew Sullivan, a conservative, said that Bush and Cheney will be held eventually accountable for their role in the use of torture...It was one sentence for an issue that should be heavily debated in the US news.
The US government has tortured innocent people and some of them have died.
Thats news!
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Why is Michelle proud?
The Sermon on the Shore (slideshow)
xx
ed
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That was priceless. Legitimate criticism of black population in America doesn't stand a chance. The moment it comes up it's quickly removed by fearful hypocritical plebs. And yet we speak of free speech and free press. So sad. Many apparently believe that free speech only exists to say good things about people.
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Thsi is what Obama should connect with in his speech on August 28th:
"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.'" MLK
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." MLK
and then Obama should talk about his own character and what he stands for...and he will say he will work for all Americans..black and white, Jew and Christian...etc
"Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children."
MLK
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newBodo: Personally I hope your comments are kept online so everyone can see exactly how racist they are. So you think all black Americans are now lazy, opportunistic criminals? Views like yours should be left on these boards so they can be rightfully ridiculed.
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They scream impeach Bush all the time here. Senators said that on the news, the whole left wing liberal media screams that. Chaney is considered devil here since long time ago.
Are you also suggesting that we should be showing Al Jazeera broadcast so that we could facilitate the new terror cells members recruitment? Why don't we treat our enemies like friends? And this torture nonsense is so old. They'll blow up innocent people and we'll give them humane trials. They are NOT citizens of US, they DO NOT deserve rights and freedoms we have in US. End of story.
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Views like that are not racist, views like that are criticisms of people we live with so that they are aware of their problems and correct them. But the reason they are removed is because no one wants to face these problems and is afraid of running into situations like that of Don Imus or anyone else. I'm sure there are people in US that don't like Blacks because of old prejudices. I've come to not like many of them because of what I see in their mentality and not skin color. The ghetto is right across the road from where I live. Many Americans who live in the north don’t have any idea what it is like in the Southern parts of US. Just look at Sharpton, Jackson, and Wright - all black populace is summarized in those few perfectly.
And if I am wrong, provide me with arguments of why I'm wrong. And "you are racist" is not an argument. Moderation of the post is also not an argument, but a proof of its truth.
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David Cunard:
There are now four major new networks on broadcast television. NBC, ABC, CBS, and FOX (the new one, and, yes, it is a valid news network). If you were to include cable, then CNN would probably also be counted.
As for the orthography, while have personally noted that, in general, the Americans (unfortunately) on this website have less-than-adequate spelling skills--whereas the Britons have both decent spelling skills *and* an impressive vocabulary--being arrogantly nit-picky is somewhat foolish. There are bound to be some people who could find fault in your writing, too. As long as you can make out what they're trying to write, there's no constructive point in trying to shame bad spellers.
(And for the record, personally use awkward syntax and diction, but that's due to a quirk; have a generally fair grasp of how words are supposed to be used :-)).
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#18 I agree with you on this: "Too much triviality and too many points being played over and over by the media. No I don't want to hear about anyone's wife. I want to hear about the issues."
How is that different from Justin's blog? I am certainly getting very disappointed with the BBC's coverage of the US elections so far.
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newBodo:
Conservative Americans don't need people such as you making them look bad. They already have the stigma of all being racists because of the tiny minority you represent (same could go for 'whites,' 'blacks,' and Muslims, being stuck-up racists, unemployed criminals, and Islamists, respectively, while on the topic.....).
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29. At 3:00 pm on 20 May 2008, bethpa wrote:
Someone who says that 'Matthews want (sic) to have Obama's love child" calls Olberman a "hate monger."
Looks to me like MagicKirin is the hate monger.
I'm up in Canada now and you know what...sometimes they view stories from Al Jazeera on their tv.
Its called freedom of the press. You may have heard of it. In free nations they hear all the points of view. A free press is an important foundation for a true democracy.
Are you kidding Al Jazeera does not give an accurate view od the Middle East and for a long time Fox News was banned in Canada.
It seemed more important to have a propganda network than the leader cable news network from your southern neighbor.
Obermann is a hate monger that is a fact!!
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oh devide cunard you are some spelling bee champion. and have an amazing grasp of languish but non of politics. lucky you get to write not make the decisions.
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NewBoda
What do you know of Maher Arar?
What percentage of Americans favor impeachment?
Have you ever seen one tv segment from Al Jazeera?
The problem is that Americans don't know what they don't know. Ignorance however is no defense. because reality will engulf America even as it is in denial
Rumor on the web is that Cheney has a place in Dubai to hide after he leaves office. This man is a war criminal imo...
(I sometimes wonder if the posters who say they are Americans and say hateful things are really Americans or are trying to embaress America. But then look at what we have for a president..and most Americans are embaressed by that! What a mess!)
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NewBodo: Rather, it is up to you to explain why you can lump all black Americans into one category (lazy, criminal) without deserving the label racist. Sorry if the people in the ghetto across the street bother you, but claiming all blacks are the same as them is no more an argument then claiming all jews are like Shylock. It is obviously false, a basic logical fallacy: 'I know people who are black and lazy, therefore all blacks are lazy' is as false a statement as 'I have a red chair, therefore all chairs are red'.
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Same could go for whites and Muslims. But let's look at things in proportion. South in various locales has 60% blacks. Of them a large proportion lives in ghettos which have high rates of crime. In the US prisons 90% of prison population is black. Aids is raging mostly among black population in US. Unemployment rates are higher among blacks than any other ethnic group in US.
All racial groups in US and around the world have their problems. But none demands paybacks for slavery and social assistance as much as blacks do here.
And just so you know the "small group" you are referring to is all South .. .will never vote for a black man.
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I agree with Ptrsln - we should all have the pleasure (schadenfreude?) of seeing newBodo display his ignorance and rabid racism.
A Gem:
"Just look at Sharpton, Jackson, and Wright - all black populace is summarized in those few perfectly."
And, by the way, he's sometimes quite accurate:
"they are as legitimate as Al Jazeera"
xx
ed
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Georgia Republican Party chairwoman Sue Everhart might want to check Matthew 27:46 and/or Mark 15:34 wherein Jesus accuses God of abandoning him (quoting Psalm 22).
But the America=God underneath her analogy is the most frightening.
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It's great to see Europeans living in Scotland and people from Canada offer their opinions on American race issue claiming others that actually live here and deal with this on daily basis are ignorant.
Your points are laughable. It's like saying I've never seen an opera because I don't like opera. Why don't you come spend several years in US and not in Oregon or Connecticut with 2 blacks per 100 whites? Come down to Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. Then let's see if you call people racist for their critique of black population.
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Ed
You even fail to read who's post you are reading. Come on man, you get sloppier with every post.
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Beth,
"The problem is that Americans don't know what they don't know."
The problem is that Americans don't know that they don't know.
Recognising one's ignorance is the first step towards understanding, to paraphrase Socrates.
Towards an ignorance-based worldview
xx
ed
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Sorry to mis-credit you with an accidentally accurate statement, newBodo. I abase myself.
Regarding knowing America, I remind you that I grew up in the midst of American Apartheid (segregation) and must acknowledge eight slave-owning great grandparents. Although profoundly ignorant in innumerable ways, I do have some experience of racism.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed
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newBodo: It's a lot easier to have this discussion when you make real arguments, wrong as they may be. The US prison population is not 90% black. It is much closer to 33%. AIDS affects whites and blacks equally with respect to total numbers, with about 400,000 total diagnoses in each population. This amounts to only 1% of the black population. Unemployment rates among blacks (10.8%), however, are higher than whites (5%) or latinos (8%), so you have that right at least.
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Of course, Obama could go after Cindy McCain for being 'a drug addict' (Cindy McCain was addicted to pain killers after a back operation), and remark how only the Mormon in the GOP field had had only one wife, but all the mud only comes one way. Think about it- the 'Hands' ad for Jesse Helms, the ad distorting Max Cleland's Vietnam record, Willie Horton, Swift Boating, 'Call me, Harold!'..... Can you name one famous Democrat attack ad??
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newBoda
I go back and forth between Canada and Pennsylvania...so I see both Canadian and US news on tv.
I grew up in NY and have lived in NJ, GA, TN and traveled all over the US...with friends in many states...
I have had friends who were black, since I was a child in NY ...Many people of different races get along very well in the US. But there is racism still.
Many thought the candidacy of Obama could not happen because of the racism. But many Americans are not bothered by Obama's race. In fact for some of us..his color is an asset : )
Some of us want America to unite and lose the divisions...and to have open fair discussions about how to handle important issues that will affect the lives of ordinary Americans.
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"Go for Michelle and Cindy McCain becomes fair game"? Let's hope not. Michelle Obama was justly criticized for a public remark she made in the context of the campaign. If Cindy McCain likewise enters the campaign, she is accountable for her statements, but not otherwise.
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Didn't you leave US when you were 1 or 2 years old? Then what do you claim to know about racism?
Segregation of 50s and 60s has nothing in common with today's state of affairs. I'll go further to say that black population of those years has little in common with one we see today. That is why in the moderated post about King I said that what King stood for is squandered away. Have you considered the fact that black population is as discriminatory in its actions towards whites as you claim whites are towards black? Have you looked into affirmative action? Have you looked into the law on the desegregated schools? This claim of ignorance is another way of saying nothing back.
I hate to use this in this debate, but one of the professors I had in grad school was black. He was a very wise man and we did research together, very enjoyable person to work with. And there were few others, but an analysis of actions of majority leads one to develop views like the ones in my posts. Again, billions in profits for Oprah and Obama, and many other blacks invalidate claims of racism. There is opportunity in abundance in America for everyone. It is sad that many choose not to take advantage of it and live off welfare checks.
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newBodo,
"Didn't you leave US when you were 1 or 2 years old?"
More like 30
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Blacks made up 41 percent of the nation's 2 million prison and jail inmates in 2006. Non-Hispanic whites made up 37 percent and Hispanics made up 19 percent. The number is averaged and as many may know mean is not rubust and is influenced by outliers. Therefore, whereas in Connecticut or Utah numbers may be very low, go to prisons in Louisiana and Mississipi and let's count those.
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Ptrsin
Its difficult to know what the true unemployment rates are in the US because people lose their benefits after a while and then give up looking for a job. A better gauge might be an employment rate.
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to Ed iglehard
bethpa and all the others that show sanity on this blog. THANK YOU.
Cali american thank you david is obsessed with the way words are written not the meaning.So if you reading this david get your red pen out this one's a doozy.
Reminds me of the architecture student i knew who designed this beautifull house with no door to get in.
As for the racist new bodo acutally it is good enough to call you a racist but if you want an arguement here it comes.
Those 3 black pastors you talk of are simply
telling people what they think .
They say to me that all blacks are caring people that defend the weak the poor the hungry the oppressed.they are the soul of this nation and the epitimy of the american dream for what its peopel should be.people who care for freeedom and euqal rights and democracy for all.
you make me think americans are nasty racist war mongerers. hardly a good thing to hope your nation is known for.
I think that is called free speech( to you probably a conspiracy).
You "Legitimate criticism of black population in America doesn't stand a chance. "
Well well, the moment a black guy(or any guy or girl) tries to make a stand
I say " legitimate criticism of the population of america doesn't stand a chance "
See you inject racism into the sentence 'cause reality is nothing american can be criticised in america. it's not just the black population.
It seems to me also that you think there is a difference between "old prejudice" and new prejudice. It is still prejudice.mate.
And back to the middle east.al jezarra and apeasement rubbish.
look at Ireland the RAF never bombed dublin.Nor would it have been acceptable to suggest it.
I spent years in embassies where security and terrorist threats were from the american supported terrorists of the IRA.
We still listened to an american to help broker peace.
we did not bomb america.
embargo america or generally hate the americans. despite bombs in our cities.
You say "They are NOT citizens of US, they DO NOT deserve rights and freedoms we have in US. End of story."
not so the end.
so no one has rights unless they are an american(sorry white american ,because you don't believe the blacks are not just criminal lazy people)(like the double negative david?)
If they do not deserve the rights and freedoms we have in the US .THEN WHY START A WAR TO BRING THEM DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM.
I personally think you have it the wrong way round on that score .
Every one has rights .
or may I presume you are an athiest.(or maybe a muslim I hear from some americans that all muslims believe no one has rights )
It is america's insistance that only it's welfare is worth concideration that has led so many around the world to view us as overdominating bullies.
END OF STORY ?
Oh and David sorry my spell check is just an illusion that says what i right is OK :)
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Is that you, Ratty?
Salaam/Shalom
ed
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If there is a higher percentage of blacks in prison that still does not give the reason for that higher percentage. It could be prejudice in the sentencing of blacks in comparison to whites by judges or juries who are influenced by prejudice against blacks.
There is no group imo who are more American than the black population in America. Many have ancestors who go back to the 1600's in America and have not only black ancestors but white and American Indian ancestry as well.
The US had slavery for over 200 years. It is only within the last 50 years blacks have finally been treated as equals to whites.
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Thanks Jack, but don't be too hard on David. He'll come round to Obama in time.
;-)
ed
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simonwr22: You forgot about Daisy! One of the most famous political attack ads, it all but stated outright that if you don't vote for Lyndon Johnson, you will die in a nuclear holocaust. Makes Clinton's 3AM ad look like kids stuff.
beth: Yes, we have the same problem here if I recall correctly. However, the quoted figure refers to people who are actively looking for a job, so the numbers can only be higher than what I quoted, which is why they are controversial when used to show how strong the US economy is. Actually, looking again, the numbers seem to be out of date. The dept of labour statistics from 2007 show the unemployment rate at 8.3% for blacks over 16 years old and 4.1% for whites in the same age group. They also offer percentage of employed people for both races: 63% for whites and 58% for blacks. These numbers are significantly lower than you would expect because a large part of the population is retired and not part of the labour force.
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Why don't you come spend several years in US and not in Oregon or Connecticut with 2 blacks per 100 whites?
Oh Bodo keep digging you'll hit china soon.
I lived in BRIXTON, LONDON a Very "black area" and strangely enough I still think you are a racist.
And yes i laugh at all those who think EUGENE is diverse .Its as white as can be .
I would like that to change.
I liked Brixton.
as to . prison population and unemployment , aids , in fact all your arguements.
please read the lovely well put comments of ptrsin ed and all the others who have taken the time to pointout that you can delude yourself but you are still a racist.
though i am glad to hear that one educated blackman was acceptable to you and have hope that you meet more .
though that will be as likely as me voting for hillary.
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Ed,
Somehow, I am sceptical that Pres. Ahmadinejad represents anything other
than the most extreme of positions.
Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable
if I resided in a country where a foreign
leader who was pursuing nuclear capability
was threatening to wipe me and my
fellow citizens from "the map of history."
I'm not sure exactly what that means,
but I don't think that there is any way
to sugarcoat it.
Justin, since I am not a member of the
privileged few who are entitled to
follow the FT link, I shall provide you
with some other information that you
may find useful.
There is a lot of progress being made
in developing ethanol from non-food
sources, and one of the most promising
candidates is a company named "coskata",
and they have a web site, www.coskata.com,
which explains what they do.
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Ptrsin
Americans are more openly emotional than the British (?) and our news and tv ads are more emotional (do you agree?)
The BBC is so straight forward and factual by comparison to US news presenters.
When watching the US news presenters talk about the earthquake victims in China there was more emotionalism. The BBC presenter was more somber and soft spoken. I thought it was respectful and appropriate.
I think it is a mistake to use so much emotionalism when presenting the news. Its bettter to be factual and show emotions in editorial comments. Part of the problem now in the US is that the sides do not agree on the factual data so the debate starts from a disagreement on the most basic elements.
("employed people for both races: 63% for whites and 58% for blacks." Ptrsin
A difference of 5% for the employment rates between blacks and whites is not bad imo...its not perfect..but its not bad.)
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thanks ed . I will go gently and may even learn to work my speel check so as to cause less offence. I have to admit to my own prejudice here on the BBC i am truely sad to say that ever since my days at Oxford (POLY) I have been predjudiced against english majors and those that cooert spelling and quote others too much.
There I said it are you proud OK I"M ENGISHDEGREEIST SOORRRY:)
ANd thank you moderator for allowing this discorse to continue despite.
But to bobo , did you ever think that the reason behind some of the statistics might be racism.
racist won't employ blacks.
racists imprison blacks
racist write the laws to imprison blacks(do not dare disagree even the right wing supream court agreed with this)
I would like to see how you would survive where no one would give you a job. I mean tell me how do you exist is they will not employ you no matter how good you work.
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Guns'nReligion,
"Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable
if I resided in a country where a foreign
leader who was pursuing nuclear capability
was threatening to wipe me and my
fellow citizens from "the map of history.""
I would be pleased to see proof that that is an accurate translation of his remarks. My understanding is that it was stated clearly as a prediction, one which might cheer his audience, no doubt. It was not a threat.
Iran has also stated repeatedly that she is NOT seeking nuclear WEAPONS capability. Who are we to deny her the right to mine and refine her own natural resources? Do we have any reason to dis-believe what Iran says more than to dis-believe what our demonstrably mendacious leaders (and their captive media) tell us?
Iran would, in my opinion, be daft to threaten Israel. She is daft to respond to the poking-a-stick-at-a-caged-beast techniques being employed by Shrub, al Poodle, and their Zionist mates.
We would be daft to consider attacking, or worse, invading Iran, as can be seen by anyone who looks at a decent map. It's huge, and full of impossible terrain. We can't manage much progress in Afghanistan or even relatively flat Iraq.
I would be uncomfortable if I resided in a country which was brutalising its neighbours and holding them in what amounts to the world's largest open-air prison, but it would be a moral discomfort.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed
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If people are concerned about Iran and Ahmadinejad, shouldn't more be known about him and his influence in Iran?
Is it really sufficient for a discourse to know only some simple statements like he wants to wipe Israel off the map and he denies the Holocaust?
What iI have read is that everytime Ahmadinejad starts to lose power in Iran he starts to become more bellicose in his statements in order to garner more support from a segment of the Iranian population. Iran has had some problems with its economy.
Iran is a complex nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad
In 2005, Khamenei responded to Ahmadinejad's alleged remark that Israel should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."[84] Moreover, Khamenei's main adviser in foreign policy, Ali Akbar Velayati, refused to take part in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust conference. In contrast to Ahmadinejad's remarks, Velayati said that the Holocaust was a genocide and a historical reality.[85]
However, The 'Wipe Israel' phrase also appeared elsewhere: Iranian military parades in Ahmadinedjad's reign featured ballistic missiles adorned with slogans such as 'Israel must be uprooted and erased from history'.[86]
In June 2007, Ahmadinejad was criticized by some Iranian parliament members over his remark about Christianity and Judaism. According to Aftab News Agency, Ahmadinejad stated: "In the world, there are deviations from the right path: Christianity and Judaism. Dollars have been devoted to the propagation of these deviations. There are also false claims that these [religions] will save mankind. But Islam is the only religion that [can] save mankind." Some members of Iranian parliament criticized these remarks as being fuels to religious war."
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newBodo - Somewhat outdated but according to the US Dept. of Justice:
(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm)
"At yearend 2006 there were 3,042 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,261 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 487 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males."
Please keep in mind that non-Hispanic blacks are about 15% of the total US population.
I do not think anyone can look at these numbers and not think that there is some inherent problem that strips the black population of the opportunity you assume they throw away.
Laws regarding drug possession and other non-violent crimes unfairly penalize poor, black populations (i.e. possession of crack is more harshly penalized than possession of cocaine) and the rehabilitation that the prison system supposedly facilitates simply burdens ex-inmates with a record that limits their employment opportunities.
Something like 1 in 10 black men have been imprisoned. The rarity of the two-parent family and the serious financial difficulty of maintaining single-income households are problems interwoven with a biased system that limits the opportunities of the black population - and the best part is that the system is self-perpetuating.
The US is not a meritocracy and your insistence that it is indicates either a shallow analysis of the facts or a willful blindness to the realities of the situation.
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beth: Not terrible, but I'd like to see that gap closed. Although I think we'd probably agree that its cause has more to do with discrimination (both of the race and class variety) and demographics (the largest black populations are in states which have suffered more economically than others) than anything else.
And I do find the ads interesting, but only from a Machiavellian standpoint. I'd much rather see the hundreds of millions of dollars that go into these campaigns be spent elsewhere. There is no policy position a candidate can express in 30 seconds that is worth hearing, but you can certainly create false impressions in that time. And since "a lie travels halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its shoes on", it's much easier to just churn out these ads instead of trying to discuss policy in any detail.
What's really changed since the first days of political TV ads is that now each party has its own statistics factories. Whether internally or through proxy 'think tanks', they work out their own numbers to fit their predetermined positions (no matter how misleading their metrics are), rather than determining their positions based on the relevant numbers. The payoff is that you can pretend to be basing your policy on cold logic, while really, you are just grasping for the first number which supports your ideology.
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I suspect jacksforge is black or one of the "good guilty white people". What absurdity. Employment law is so ridiculous in the overlegalized society of US that if we wanted we wouldn't be able to discriminate. I've worked in a few companies over the years, some Fortune 500. We went to great lengths to accommodate and hire equally and equitably. Law suits are very expensive and no one wants them.
And apparently you believe in the fact that white people put guns into black's hands. Well there is nothing to talk to you about then. And those meager identification attempts are ridiculous, I'm neither Muslim, nor atheist. And you interestingly thanked all those on the blogg who utter the same left wing naive absurdities day in day out. So I can the common ground there for you. Crying racism and prejudice in US today is just an excuse for laziness and stupidity. And since you endorse Wright and Sharpton you've clearly explained that it is futile to engage in any discussions with you.
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Iran is indeed a complex nation
Ethnic groups:
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
Religions:
Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i) 2%
Languages:
Persian and Persian dialects 58%, Turkic and Turkic dialects 26%, Kurdish 9%, Luri 2%, Balochi 1%, Arabic 1%, Turkish 1%, other 2%
(Compliments of the CIA
Dorood,
ed
("salAm" is the common word we use in Farsi, but some people like "dorood" which is literary and old in style.)
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Oh yeah and the war in Iraq to bring democracy to Iraq? Are you 5 years old? It was always about oil/resources/stability in the region. Never about democracy.
The constitution of a country granting rights and freedoms to its people is meant for citizens of the country only. We cannot extend rights of free speech to muslims as they denounce it, partly because they don't want it and partly because the constitution is that of the US, not Iraq or Iran.
You all sound like that US senator that said "If I could only speak to Hitler all of this could have been avoided", as Hitler was invading Poland.
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bethpa,
I agree that Iran is a complex society,
and if we weren't at a flashpoint with
them over Iraq, their politics would
probably moderate.
There are also ways in which we could
engage them to reduce the threat of
conflict between us and them.
But, this Ahmadinejad character seems
to be a voice for the most confrontational
factions in their society, much as the
Bush administration has been for us.
Hopefully, both leaders will disappear
from the world scene so that can get
on with a more productive relationship.
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newBodo,
"And since you endorse Wright and Sharpton you've clearly explained that it is futile to engage in any discussions with you. "
Might as well stop trying, then.
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Justin, I think you've opened Pandora's box...
NewBodo said:
"Are you also suggesting that we should be showing Al Jazeera broadcast so that we could facilitate the new terror cells members recruitment?"
Now tell...why would you think a young person born in this great country would want to form a terrorist cell? Especially when faced with the prospect of being labeled an "Enemy combatant" and with a suite at Gitmo? You think that because they are shown Al Jazeera they will all leave their comforts to go fight for a cause that it's not even theirs? If they actually do something like that, it will probably be because they did more than just watch Al Jazeera...because they believed in something.
You are like the people at the top, you think that by depriving people of information, you'll keep America safe, it's like a preemptive war on people here in the US getting informed.
A quote from someone that did know a thing or two about war, Dwight Eisenhower :"All of us have heard this term 'preventative war' since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time... I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."
There's an underlying set of issues at the core of what terrorism is and as long as you don't resolve those issues (read, Arab Israeli conflict, Iraq war, Tyrants that are labeled friends even though they are in the same league as Saddam was, Sunni Shia eternal conflict, desire of an independent state), terrorism will exist. People can still read Al Jazeera on-line...now do you propose we cut internet access to millions of middle and poor class americans just in case they decide they want to be terrorists???
Instead of spending 12 billion dollars a month, destroying a country, the US could have used a tiny fraction of that money educating people in the middle east about what America stands for...opening schools, giving them clean water, giving them roads, giving them the means to sustain themselves so they're not so helpless as they're now. And the rest could have been used to better health care, education and to fix this failing economy.
The only way we'll manage to live in peace is by talking...by learning who we're dealing with, by not being so arrogant to think that we are the only ones that are right. Information is not a threat, unless you want to keep your people submissive and quiet, not able to think for themselves or able to voice their discontent or concerns...if you're in doubt, ask Russia, China or the Arab Kingdoms, they know a lot on the subject.
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I'm finding it fascinating reading the debate here about Iran. Thankyou Bethpa for your contribution #70. It seems you know a great deal more than at least one Presidential candidate(as well as the chief gunslinger himself, no doubt).
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Well, Ed. If you read my previous posts they were mostly general in nature addressing broad phenomena. Other posters when they disagree with the statement feel the need to engage in personal debates, establishing who posters are and what may be "wrong with them". Therefore my responses to you and jacksforge. If you engage in adult debate normally you speak in general terms, but you're right I'll refrain from screaming to the deaf.
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# 38 AnonymousCalifornian - I take your point about Fox; it likes to think of itself as being on a par with the other three, but does not have the same breadth of programming. Some commentators would also include Univision and The CW as 'major networks'. Concerning spelling, it may be ‘arrogantly nit picky’ to criticise posters and I have never shamed anyone, although there has been the temptation! However, I would have expected a BBC article to be checked for errors. Justin has taken me to task over certain comparisons, so it's only fair that he be gently chastised. He, rather than American posters, may see the irony of my suggestion that he might give the British educational system a bad name, since its reputation is not now what once it was. The highest form of secondary education was formerly that provided in grammar schools, of which there are now fewer than before. Over the last forty years or so the system has become greatly altered, in no small part because of Labour governments. An article which addresses the problems can be found here
#42 Jacksforge - If I have no grasp of politics then the millions of people who have voted for Mrs Clinton must have none, and that is not the case.
Regarding # 60, I have no "obsession" with the way words are written, but mindful that all word processors have spell-checks - and that the BBC employs educated women and men - it seems a simple task to check before posting. Attempting to belittle me does your posts a disservice. As Jack appears to live in Brixton, London (famous for it's prison) I find it difficult to understand how he can comment on life in the United States. As for "we did not bomb america" I think it highly unlikely that any (foreign) government today would consider such an act - the retaliation would be worse than Hiroshima.
#62 bethpa; Actually it’s less than fifty years - it wasn’t until 1964 that President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act; even after that attitudes were slow to change. Today there are pockets of resistance, as has been seen by the comments older voters have made. An interesting timeline about the struggle for equality can be seen here
# 63 - Ed, why would you think I’ll come around to Mr Obama? Millions have not and my views don't change with the wind. Sadly, Mrs Clinton has a number of fair-weather friends who have jumped ship. Respect for the opinions of others is what makes a democracy work and mine don't change for the sake of convenience. Should Mr Obama succeed in or before August, then his platform and that of his party would have to be compared with that of John McCain and the Republicans. Selecting the next President cannot and must not be done impulsively; no-one, not even Mr Obama, is perfect!
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guns and religion
You won't find me supporting Ahmadinejad.(understatement) He is a dictator and very dangerous. He has engaged in suppression of human rights and has used torture.
However he has weaknesses and is vulnerable from within Iran imo If we had a clever group of people who understood Iran we could imo weaken him. with statements coming from the executive office in the US and with some negotiations involving trade and other contacts.. But the neocons are heavy handed and work only with a stick and no carrott.
Both Bush and Ahnmadinejad use external enemies to generate support.
There are many poeople around the world who are looking forward to the end of the Bush administration and will be eager to work with a new president. This will be an opportunity to make some advances internationally, if utilized properly.
This poll is from 2005 but still it is an indicator of how Iranians think..and imo if we are clever we can influence them and get Ahmadinejad out of power.
http://www.publicdiplomacy.org/75.htm
some quotes
"Discontent with the current system of government, the state of Iran's economy, and isolation from the West is widespread throughout Iran. In this context, nuclear weapons are the lowest priority for the Iranian people."
"Iranians even overwhelmingly support their government providing full inspections and a guarantee not to develop nuclear weapons in return for trade and assistance from other countries. The popular will to live in a democracy open to the West and the United States, with greater economic opportunity, comes from every region and segment of Iranian society..."
"Although the U.S. government has accused Iran's government of sponsoring international terrorism, the Iranian people themselves are somewhat more likely than Americans to oppose attacks that deliberately target civilians. It is important to note, however, that slim majorities of Iranians feel that some Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians are justified and view Hamas and Hezbollah favorably.."..
"Seven in ten Iranians view international terrorism as an important threat to Iran's vital interests including 56 percent who see it as a critical threat. Only 12 percent call it "not important." Even more Iranians are concerned about terrorist attacks in their own country. Eighty-one percent call such attacks an important threat (66% critical)."
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David_Cunard
So you're saying you would consider voting someone in as President who espouses an aggressive foreign policy stance towards a country who's leadership he can't accurately identify?
Hmmm...
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And would you believe it? Fox News outed another dangerous radical lefty justifying appeasement!
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Before anyone else notices, I see that at # 81 I have inserted an apostrophe where there should be none - "famous for its prison". Not so perfect after all! :)
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David_Cunard
I think of the change in race relations coming in 1954 with Brown vs the Board of Education...54 years ago..but its possible to think of it as starting with the troops in WWII..(Your link starts with Brown ..its a good link..thank you) The key to equality was to get an equal education imo.
and it made me laugh to read about Brixton prison : )
ronaine
There is some fear mongering going on to generate votes.
It would be crazy to attack Iran but some Americans are afraid that Bush might start a war with Iran.. The concern is that the Bush administration will try to hide its own crimes by causing another war.That may be the reason there has been no impeachment. It might be the Bush administration is even more dangerous and ruthless than we realize. There are some people in the US and some in the US military who would support an attack upon Iran. Some Americans who are aware of the criminal issues with the Bush administration do not understand why there has been no impeachment and to quote Pelosi, impeachment "is off the table.".
The US news does not accurately report about the anxiety some people have about the Bush administration.and the right wing. People are afraid that Obama will be assasinated and they are afraid of a larger war with Iran.
Ptrsin
#72 yes and the tv news media should be helping to clarify what is distortion and spin..which it does not. But the campaign money is being used on ads that avoid answering questions that might lose votes.
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The James Baker clip at #84 really is worth watching, especially those here who are pro-Bush/McCain foreign policy. Very enlightening.
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That Senator who has been quoted so often lately (see post #75) was Borah, a Republican.
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Bethpa,
I agree, from what I have read and
seen he represents a fanatical minority,
and the majority of the Iranian population
just wants to live in peace.
But, his faction is controlling things,
they control the military, and it is
something that our planners have to
be prepared to deal with.
I'm sure that there are ways of bypassing
him, but events could get out of control
before that happens, and there goes
civilization!
It doesn't take much to start a war,
just a few people with poor judgement
in positions of authority.
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So there you have it, straight from the redneck chic Party chairgal in the Republican heartland: America is God and McCain is the second coming. Welcome to the bizarre world of American politics, where political bosses can actually stand up in public and make such claims with a straight face. America's own Monster Raving Loony Party! And meanwhile, Iraq continues to be crucified by its unwelcome and despised messianic American 'saviors'. Civil war is much too sanitary a term for it. NBC and all the other corporate "news" factories owe an apology for not correctly identifying it as an unprovoked act of unilateral aggression in violation of the UN Charter and a brutal occupation in violation of the will of the Iraqi population; for which NBC and other media servants of power should not be bowing to the White House but calling for war crimes trials for those responsible. And if Obama Copacabana had any political guts or moral gumption he'd 'denounce and reject' those who plotted the carnage in Iraq, with the same fervor he did his former pastor. But America's 'civil religion' is shared by both wings of the Duopoly Party, and foreign policy is not based on The Beatitudes.
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Manners maketh the man.
I am so old that I can remember the time when it was better to have played the game and lost, than not to have played the game at all. A time when respect for your opponent was as paramount as your own team winning. Today it is all about winning Full Stop!
David_C has always played and been a gentleman in his support for correctness, for his candidate, and his doubts for the opposing candidate, on a par with Ed, who shows us our lack of knowledge on levels we had not earlier realised.
An important but minor battle appears to have been won, but the "war" is not yet over. My own personal view is that before we begin with over the top jubilation, we should value all useful information, without alienating the fellow party supporter who happens to be wearing a different hat.
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bobo ,you think that generalities are all that should be talked about? well for instance i believe a woman is equally able to lead this nation(yes i said this, I live in oregon now).
as a general statement but hillary , no thats specific.
And do not come to a debate and say that your own personal comments do not merit a responce(though ed may be right here(as he regularly is,sorry Ed an endorsement from a 5 year old here).
As to feeling guilty, not really, I'm not a racist so why should I feel guilty because of the behaviour and views of the likes of you.
As to my ethnic origins I'm an anglo american malaysian. Lets see what you have to say about that.that should be good.
As to the personal remarks(again) would you rather I just said racists not bobo. everyone else would know to who I refer.
As to employment law.
we may agree on some thing here. african americans often have an accent that is noticable on the phone. in the UK most have a regional accent that is in no way an indication of colour..
this means that an employer in the US has often only to listen on the phone and they can say "position filled,Sorry".
Now it could be argued that the culture of african americans includes their phrases and accent is preventing them from getting a job. it is not it is the fact that racists know ones colour before seeing them so they can say "how did i know it was a phone call"
not so easy in the UK (where there is still plenty of discrimination.)
In the US jobs that are well paid often require a degree(even if it has no relevance).
there is a prohibition on employing people with a record.
America and the racists that ruin its good name(lol) should realise that the rest of the world does not accept the american god given right to do what they please. but the bbc does allow in fairness to good debate people like me to respond directly to the comments of people like you.
Now i could have called you a 5 year old(but most are not quite committed racists at that age)
as to putting guns in hand .yes it was certainly not me that made or sold them and I suspect it was an american.
as for meger identification attempts.
So are you a christian?
what religion are you. because if you are a christian then enjoy pergatory.
Jesus preached that those without sin can throw the first stone.
jesus preached that all are equal in the eyes of the lord.
(yes that includes racists).
so tell me what religion you are that promotes racism and xenophobia.
And as for the reason for war you really show your ignorance it was about ISRAEL.
Talk of appeasement. The classic case is when Israel was formed from the terrorist roots that were the zionist movement.
It was also appeasement when the British talked to the Irish.(at least that one worked out).
You are very selective with your facts it seems.
Oh and by the way Bush is talking(through others) to Iran. Is he traitor for daring to communicate?
oh and by the way though every blog in the US has talked of impeachment I have yet to hear it talked about on the TV.
Because they went through a lot of effort in the Will Clinton Days to impeach Him .Oh but he lied abotu little where as Bush lied about the enviroment the war and everything else that was relevant.
Personally I would like to see both him and cheny stand trial for treason.
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Who would Jesus vote for?
CANDIDATE 2
Sen. John McCain
Even so, McCain insists that the surge and the Pentagon's new counterinsurgency strategy, which centers on a "hearts and minds" approach, can ultimately drive out insurgents and reduce American casualties in Iraq to virtually nothing. "Is it long and hard and tough? Yes," McCain told me. "Has Al Qaeda been beaten? No, but they certainly have been diminished." (To the dismay of many of his critics, McCain often uses "Al Qaeda" as a shorthand for the Iraqi insurgent group that calls itself Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.) "And it's obviously not just Al Qaeda," he went on. "It's Shiite militias. It's former Baathists who are still unhappy. It's corruption within the police that we have to worry about.
"All I can say is, the surge is succeeding," he said. "If someone wants to disagree with that, they're free to, but I have statistics - whether they be instances of violence, whether it be U.S. casualties, whatever it may be - that prove that this new tactic is succeeding. So I'm willing to stick with it."
Source: New York Times Web site, "The McCain Doctrines", 18 May 2008
Mark Twain:
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Jesus:
And Jesus said to him [Judas], "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Source: Matthew 26: 50-52, New American Standard Bible
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"Both Bush and Ahnmadinejad use external enemies to generate support."
As did Hitler
xx
ed
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Oh and to David .while I disagree about Hillary vrs Obama I can agree to the realities of racism and no country bombing the US .(but we had our own NUKES BY THE WAY)
My atempts are not to belittle you but rather to get you to stop belittling others arguements with your red pen of the school teacher.
If you wish to comment on substance fine but leave linguistics out. this is an international debate forum and many people may not feel comfortable writing in Engish.But have many valid points.
when listening to people of other nations you can either spend most of the conversation correcting thier pronounciation or you can listen to what they say and addapt. Something most brits I have found are able to do.
Still next time I'm in the hardware store looking for Caulk i will remember to advise the american sales man" it is not Cock but Caulk ,my good man".
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#13.......That's why there's so many ignorant Americans, because they believe everything they see on TV...Justin, keep it up, love the blog...
#13 - I resent your remark re: "many ignorant Americans..." - are you by any chance one of them? You think the BBC is "unbiased" well, there are , let's use your term "many ignorant Brits who believe everything they read/see on BBC"
See how stupid that seems?
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Ed,
That is exactly right! Both use external
threats to generate fear and strengthen
their political positions.
With Bush, it started with the "Axis of Evil"
speech.
But, the next administration is going
to have a tough time defusing the situation,
regardless of whichever candidate is elected.
And, just because we might be paranoid
does not mean that there are not people
out there who want to kill us.
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Anyone aspiring to become our First Lady, and who up till recently had found no reason to be proud of her country, despite all the perks she enjoyed along the way, should expect to have her unfortunate remark dog her and her husband all the way to the General Election. Michelle Obama emulated Bill Clinton by putting her foot in her mouth - I suspect that both of them have been asked to cool it by their respective spouses! Come to think of it, we haven't heard much from Bill lately!
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# 83 ronaine - Voters do not decide on the basis of one plank of a platform; sabre rattling may sound good to some, not to others. As yet there is no Republican Platform, just as there is none from the Democrats. The present skirmishing does not necessarily mean that it becomes policy.
# 86 bethpa - "The key to equality was to get an equal education" - and which remains true to this day. I don't know the statistics, but my guess is that gang-related violence (of all ethnicities) is related to schooling or rather, lack of it. Even though both Mr and Mrs Obama are highly educated, that does not mean that they have parity - one only has to read or hear ignorant comments about them. At such time as those kinds of remarks disappear will there be true equality. The problems South Africa is facing today (literally) demonstrates how ignorance affects behaviour.
# 91 watermanaquarius - Thanks for the kind remarks! There are still some of us who feel as you do. Incidentally, we were both born under the same sign - and they say astrology is nonsense!!
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Who would Jesus vote for?
CANDIDATE 3
Sen. Obama
It is pretty obviously rather pointless, in a sense, to ask this question. There are many good people who have a vote in this important election. Jesus is not one of them, although many who profess to follow Him do have a vote.
I have previously indicated policies advocated by both Senators Clinton and McCain which I have compared with Jesus' reported words. I could also do so for Sen. Obama. I'm not going to. In my fallible opinion, as I have previously stated, Obama is wrong if he persists with a military campaign in Afghanistan, although for many, that conflict is more justifiable than that in Iraq. I do not agree, although I understand why some people think so.
Instead, I quote one of Jesus' earliest and dearest followers, for guidance on those things about Obama, or indeed any other candidate, or his or her supporters, which are NOT relevant to the titanic decision to be made:
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him."
Acts of the Apostles 10: 34-35, New American Standard Bible
Anyone want a posting for CANDIDATE 4 (my personal favourite, with little chance!): Mike Gravel?! Is he still a candidate for any party? Do it, Gravel, do it!
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# 95 - I know that the UK has nuclear weapons - I can actually remember seeing newsreel film of the tests, but possibly you can't remember newsreels. I do not need a lecture about what to make comment on; one light-hearted reference to Justin's error has been exaggerated to suggest that I have been critical of posters' use or misuse of the English language. Contrary to what you write, this is not an "international debate forum" but is hosted by the British Broadcasting Corporation - it has international participants and the lingua franca of the 21st century is English, whether of British or American use. Since you say you are "anglo american malaysian" perhaps, if Lambeth Borough Council makes it available, you might consider a short course in remedial English. Presentation of comments is half the battle and however unfair it may seem, individuals are judged by what they write and how they speak just as much as by appearance. Writing literate sentences can be the difference between gaining employment or being out-of-work.
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David,
With respect, I believe you're a bit hard on Jack. This IS an international debate forum, and we should all do as Jack suggests and pay attention to content above form.
Those whose facility with English is less than that with which we are blessed should be encouraged rather than chastised.
I haven't noticed any tendency to excessive pedantry on your part before, and was mildly amused by your teasing remark on Justin's slip. English (British or Microsoft) may be the Lingua Franca, but Tolerance and open-mindedness should remain the tone.
Peace to all,
ed
(I hope I didn't leave any typos in all that!)
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#96, you might resent my comment, but that doesn't mean is not true...you're not giving me anything to prove the contrary...On the other hand, there might be a lot of ignorant people in the Uk as well, because they do believe everything they see on british TV as well, I never said that wasn't the case, actually I don't really know because I don't live in the Uk, but I do live in the states, that's how I know first hand about the ignorance that surrounds us...
Last but not least, I do think the BBC is pretty unbiased, I have been mad with them for speaking nicely (although rarely) about President Bush. I have read Justin saying about Obama's shortcomings as well as Hillary's or McCain's...that's what we call objective journalism, unfortunately I haven't seen that around American press.
One more, if you're going to debate, please put some "meat" in your words, otherwise, we're going to start sounding just like any debate from the primaries.
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noble Floridian
I share in Michelle 's feelings about America. Its true that Americans get perks for being Americans ..but I compare it to being on the plantation and I am in the big house with the rest of the world supporting me and my lifestyle .There is some shame to the way America is using the resources of nations that have many poor..unless we do something good with what we have been given...
concerning language and its use and misuse : ) some poetry and prose
anyone lived in a pretty how town
(with up so floating many bells down)
spring summer autumn winter
he sang his didn't he danced his did
Women and men(both little and small)
cared for anyone not at all
they sowed their isn't they reaped their same
sun moon stars rain
ee cummings
Skin-the-Goat, assuming he was he, evidently with an axe to grind, was airing his grievances in a forcible-feeble philippic anent the natural resources of Ireland, or something of that sort, which he described in his lengthy dissertation as the richest country bar none on the face of God's earth, far and away superior to England, with coal in large quantities, six million pounds' worth of pork exported every year, ten millions between butter and eggs, and all the riches drained out of it by England levying taxes on the poor people that paid through the nose always, and gobbling up the best meat in the market, and a lot more surplus steam in the same vein.
James Joyce
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"We would be daft to consider attacking, or worse, invading Iran, as can be seen by anyone who looks at a decent map. It's huge, and full of impossible terrain."
Nobody is going to invade Iran. If the old men with dirty nappies on their headsds get to eager to acquire nuclear weapons, some (a dozen of 10 MT warheads will suffice) wil eventually be delivered to them (free of charge) by a reliable express air-delivery service, such as USAF.
Of course if IAF doesn't beat them to the punch bowl.
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Meerkat,
That would be daft as well. Do you want to go down in history as supporting the first pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons?
You obviously have more faith in the accuracy and effectiveness of USAF/IAF delivery than justified by the results at Tora Bora
Dorood,
ed
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"If the old men with dirty nappies on their headsds get to eager to acquire nuclear weapons"
Ah, Mr meerkat, I see where you stand. Very little point carrying on the banter. And "nil points" for diplomacy.
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Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, our humane side is showing - NOT!
;-(
ed
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Re #106 and #107
1. I wouldn't have minded to be known as a first person who executed a pre-emptive nuke strike on Nazi Germany in 1938, had nuclear weapons been available then.
2. I'm not aware of any nuclear weapons ( or even MOABs) having been used at Tora-Bora. And I would certainly not recommend using them Bora-Bora.
As for IAF precision/effectiveness in eliminating nuclear threats see video footage/photos of Saddam's reactor at Osirak and Assad's reactor at al-Kibar before and after.
BTW. You don't need a particularly small CEP with 10 MT warheads. Or even with 1 MT ones, for that matter. So if I were you I wouldn't buy any property in Busher, Natanz or Isfahan even if the price was right. At least not before "regime change" in Tehran, Insh Allah.
3. I'm not aware of any positive results accomplished by diplomacy vis-a-vis Islamic Republic of Iran, whether such negotiations have been conducted by US, EU, UN, Russia, or all of the above. Nor do I see any results of diplomatic talks with thugs in Khartum and Rangoon. So 'nil points" for diplomacy indeed.
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"Who would Jesus vote for?" Jesus can't vote in the US. He is not a citizen. If he were here right now he would be in the Concentration Camp set up in Waterloo, Iowa because he is an ILLEGAL ALIEN and and Arab Sympathizer. He would be in GITMO as an Enemy Combatatant because he is from the Middle East and maybe would be calling for Peace. He would also be an Anti-Semitic and some would call a "SELF-HATING JEW because he said, My kingdom is no part of the world. And he would have tried to prevent what happen at Massada in 70 CE.
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Go Mary!
xx
ed
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Mr Meerkat, you should meet MarcusAureliusII.
He was invented in a laboratory by Donald Rumsfeld in some groundbreaking Rambostein experiments, and his opinions are almost as scary as yours.
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Ronaine (#112):
Please stop making me laugh - I'm shaking so much that it's hindering my typing!
At least I have a clearer idea now about what happened to the bits that Donald was going to throw away as too toxic!
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The Tennessee Republican party drew fire from the Obama campaign, prompting one of Sen. Obama's classic self-righteous, haughty responses on the air. The Great Uniter issued a veiled threat (against whom?) because someone dared respond to Michelle's public words with a genteel bit of contrary opinion. In the process, he was caught in the act of being his authentic self, and this should give us all reason to pause and reflect.
Here is a man who wants life both ways--with Mrs. Obama free to speak from the stump, proclaim her opinions, campaign to the crowds and the cameras; and yet, by some unwritten rule of his own authorship, no one is allowed to question any of her pronouncements, her judgment in making them, or to submit the content of her public words to public scrutiny.
The video in question is pretty innocuous stuff, juxtaposing Mrs. Obama's pronouncement from the campaign stump with Tennesseans from various walks of life telling the camera why they've always been proud of their country. No attack upon Mrs. Obama here, just an opportunity to contrast and compare her words with ours.
View it for yourself at http://www.tngop.org.
Wonder why the not-too-subtly veiled threat in reaction? Maybe the video comes too close to the truth that the Obamas do not wish expressed? Do we now live in a world where either Barack or Michele can make any pronouncement, however offensive or wrong-headed, and any response shall be considered a personal attack upon their private lives?
Hmmm...how very Clintonian, how very Nixonian.
So, call me 'low-class', or 'bitter', as I cling to my hard-won right to participate and speak.
Mr. Obama's threat reminded me to renew my membership in the Tennessee GOP.
I grinned as I wrote the check, licked the stamp for the envelope, and urged the organization to do another video.
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"Mr Meerkat, you should meet MarcusAureliusII.
He was invented in a laboratory by Donald Rumsfeld in some groundbreaking Rambostein experiments, and his opinions are almost as scary as yours." [#112]
I let you on 3 secrets:
1. It was I who invented Donald Rumsfeld, long after I had invented Patton and McArthur.
2. There are much more horrifying/lethal weapons than nukes. If you need details check what notorious biological weapons lab in Yekaterinburg (closed by Boris Yeltsin after it had caused an anthrax epidemy but tacitly reactivated by Vladimir Putin) has been concocting. Or what certain facility in Sarov is churning out.
3. If Russian designed and build Busher reactor is going to perform as well as Chernobyl one no outside intervention may be necessary to enlighten Iran from within.
Insh Allah!
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Bethpa, surely you cannot deny that America is the most generous nation in the world, always in the forefront when it comes to aid to countries suffering from natural catastrophes or human suffering such as starvation and genocide.
As for perks, I was merely referring to the comfortable life of Mrs. Obama, who enjoyed so many on her journey to the point in her adult life where she finally found pride in being an American. If, in the hopefully unlikely event that she stands beside her husband when he gets sworn in as our Commander-in-Chief, I trust that she will find that occasion the second time she is proud to be an American.
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Mr Meerkat
"1. It was I who invented Donald Rumsfeld, long after I had invented Patton and McArthur."
:-) Top shout!
Now, aren't you proud your invention has gone on to create a terrible Rambo-like blogger? Perhaps even in his creator's image...
;-)
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Re:#117
On a more serious note: I am not (repeat: am not!) a designer of a reactor North Koreans built for Mr. Assad; nor was I inventor of a reactor type Russians are finishing in Busher for Mr. Ahmadinejad.
I can be justly accused of many awful deeds but even I know when to stop.
----------------------------------------------------------
"It's 3 AM. The phone in the White House's bedroom rings. Who would like it to answer it and how would like this person to react?
- Bill's not here; as I said it's 3 AM!"
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Justin,
an excellent blog on a variety
of topics!
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If Michelle Obama is part of the campaign, then she most definitely is fair game. If she speaks in public, then she has to be answerable too. Its amazing how the family of the candidates want to be heard without any questions asked. In much the same way as Chelsea Clinton's campaign for her mother are mostly one-way communication. People as expected to listen and comply without being given a chance to examine them closely. Why should Michelle Obama not be accountable for her statements? Why should Barrack Obama "interject"?
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