Down the drain?
This is a stunning misjudgement from Mike Huckabee - surely inexcusable.
VP chances down the drain?
Jump to more content from this blog
About this blog
Hello, I'm Justin Webb and I'm the BBC's North America editor.
Subscribe to Justin Webb's America
You can stay up to date with Justin Webb's America via these feeds.
Justin Webb's America Feed(RSS)
Justin Webb's America Feed(ATOM)
If you aren't sure what RSS is you'll find our beginner's guide to RSS useful.
Elsewhere at the BBC
Latest Americas news
Latest: Reporters' blogs
Latest from BBC News blogs
|
Nick Robinson: |
|
|
Douglas Fraser: |
|
|
Brian Taylor: |
|
|
|
Richard Black: |
|
|
Jonathan Amos: |
|
BBC News blogs
- News Editors
- Sport Editors
- Journalism Labs
- BBC Internet Blog
- Radio 4 Blog
- Peston's Picks
- Nick Robinson's Newslog
- Stephanomics
- Mark Easton's UK
- Mark Mardell's America
- Nick Bryant's Australia
- Andrew Harding on Africa
- Gavin Hewitt's Europe
- Soutik Biswas' India
- dot.Rory
- Science: Jonathan Amos
- Richard Black on environment
- Today: Tom Feilden
- Fergus Walsh's medical files
- Newsnight: Paul Mason
- Newsnight: Mark Urban
- Torin Douglas
- Will Gompertz's arts
- Phil Coomes on photojournalism
- Magazine Monitor
- Mark D'Arcy in Westminster
- NI: Mark Devenport
- Scotland: Brian Taylor
- Scotland: Douglas Fraser
- Wales: Betsan Powys
- Martin Rosenbaum on FOI
- 5 Live Breakfast
- Newsnight
- PM programme (iPM)
- World Tonight: Robin Lustig
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~30~RS~)
Comments
"VP chances down the drain?" I don't think there ever was the possibility. Of course, this "joke" does focus on the possibility that such an act may occur - the United States does have a record of removing politicians by violent acts. It would be foolhardy not to contemplate the reality that some disgruntled individual could take steps to eliminate any one of the candidates or their high profile supporters. Sadly, despite round-the-clock protection, no-one is 100% immune from violence. Regardless of one's opinions of him, Ronald Reagan, surrounded by America's finest, could not escape it, and in all probability emotions did not run as high then as with today's politicians - including potential and presumptive candidates. The bullet is not the same as the ballot but, with regret, in some sections of society it is believed to be more effective. For myself I cannot see that is so, but that is no reason not to consider what might happen if such a tragedy were to occur. For supporters of John McCain. the choice of a Vice-presidential candidate becomes even more important since the Grim Reaper has his eye on everyone over seventy.
Complain about this comment
Justin:
an interesting blog...what is it about?
Complain about this comment
I had thought better of Huckabee.
A shoot from the hip style of humour (pun unintended, but spotted), coupled with dubious judgement.
Bye Bye Mike.
Complain about this comment
An unfortunate joke maybe, but I'm not sure it's that bad. From the look of the NRA behind him, Huckabee was talking at a National Rifle Association meeting? Therefore in context the 'gun' reference would be topical.
Complain about this comment
I thought of more of Huckabee before that poor attempt at humour as well. Huckabee should have found a better gun joke than that, perhaps to do with duck hunting, but not conjuring up images of what befell Martin Luther King Jnr and John F Kennedy surely.
Complain about this comment
Jokes fail when they're too far removed from actuality - and this lame attempt at humour even the NRA members didn't seem to find funny...if Obama was a coward he would hardly be running for president - as Cunard notes presidents are kind of a bullet-magnet plus there have been all the additional fears for Obama because he's (half) black. Karl Rove's potshot -also at the NRA- was a little better aimed: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/16/rove-slams-obama-over-bitter-comments-flag-pin/#more-7169
but the flag-pin thing can surely be avoided by not wearing a suit in the first place - suits are so 20th century! Down with lapels!
Complain about this comment
Oh, and I'd like to know what Justin thinks of this site - though I expect Ed has already signposted it- http://www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com/
funnier than Huckabee at least.
Complain about this comment
Inexcusable? Surely not. It wasn't funny, but then politicians rarely are (at least not on purpose). How anyone could genuinely find that offensive is beyond me.
Complain about this comment
I know Mike is from the South but for him to utter those words beggars belief. Unbelievable.
I'm sure Obama will handle this with grace and keep his focus on getting elected as President.
Complain about this comment
I haven't liked Mike Huckabee since he started disparaging Mitt Romney's religion to try to get votes. That having been said, I think Senator McCain just crossed Huckabee off of his list of potential running mates.
The way I see it, there are three possibilities:
1) Mitt Romney because of his economic experience. However, (thanks to Huckabee) the fact that he is Mormon might prove a difficult obstacle, and he and McCain dislike each other. I would, however, say that he'd probably get a nice Cabinet seat. Treasury, maybe?
2) Charlie Crist because a) his endorsement delivered Florida and the nomination to John McCain and b) it would move Florida solidly into the Republican column, avoiding the threat of another voting fiasco.
3) Condoleezza Rice because a) she's African-American, b) she's a woman, c) she's definitely conservative, and d) she's well-known and well-liked internationally.
Sorry, Mike, but now even Jon Huntsman, Jr. has a better chance of becoming VP than you do.
Complain about this comment
This was an unfortunate comment by a man who should know better. Mr. Huckabee was my first pick before his withdrawal. Fortunately, this comment came in time to keep his chances for v.p. at nil.
Senator McCain will have a tough job finding a "perfect" candidate (yes, I know that isn't possible), but attracting young voters will be a major key to any success he will have in November. I live in the 'deep south' - Georgia - in the US and what was once a bastion of republican voters is slowly dwindling away.
Having Senator Obama will be a disaster for our country at this pivotal time in history. At a time when our debts to China are a tremendous burden and our entitlements - both to legal citizens and illegal aliens - are outrageous, Obama wants to give even more away! Ugh.
I will be interested to read how our friends in the British Isles see the two candidates (I don't count Senator Clinton any more). How do the polls there compare with ours? thank you for allowing me this avenue to express opinions.
Respectfully, boro_rat
Complain about this comment
It would appear that the only moral vacuum threatening Mike Huckabee's world to date would be the persistent low pressure area that keeps forming between his ears every time he gets in front of an audience.
Joking about pointing a gun at a presidential candidate while addressing the NRA! What a bombastic buffoon!
The only politicians puerile enough to find this social club foot amusing would be Bush and McCain. So of course he's got a "shot" at the VP Bull's Eye. And as a loyal Democrat, I hope he gets it.
Complain about this comment
# 11 boro_rat writes "I don't count Senator Clinton any more" - don't! She can still make or break the Obama nomination and even if she loses, either the nomination or subsequently the presidency, she's going to be a force in American politics for years to come. With regard to the British view of the candidates, they can be readily viewed on their web sites, and generally speaking, they have favoured Mr Obama. As the campaign progresses it might be that The Telegraph leans toward Mr McCain, and depending on the views of its proprietor, possibly The Sun as well. However, politics in other countries is not its strong point. There is an interesting analysis in The Times Here
Complain about this comment
I thought McCain's speech was spot on and he nailed BO on the issues. I especially liked his shot gun joke. If I was him I'd take a risk on Rice. This should split the black vote. As for the above as TB once said, bothered, I'm not bothered, not bothered.
As for the link in David_Cunard post #13 it just goes to show, OB can sweet talk even the British. Or is that sweetie talk.
Complain about this comment
chewie: 'split the black vote' - don't think it's that simple, sorry!
Complain about this comment
No doubt Huckabee's bullet was one of the
imaginary sniper bullets that narrowly missed HRC.
Complain about this comment
Well... It wasnt a terrible joke I've heard worse, but its clear that Mike isnt sensitive enough to the situation. Hes not in touch with the situation at large, and I def woulda thought McCain could do better for a running mate anyways.
Complain about this comment
Rupertor.....: Without the black vote he loses do the maths. She doesn't even have to take than much. McCain takes some of HRC vote (say 10-12%) CR brings OB's black vote down to 60-70%, game over.
I think secretly deep down you know he'll lose but you've made your bed etc....
Complain about this comment
"At 03:13 am on 17 May 2008, jeffrbenn wrote:
I haven't liked Mike Huckabee since he started disparaging Mitt Romney's religion to try to get votes. That having been said, I think Senator McCain just crossed Huckabee off of his list of potential running mates.
The way I see it, there are three possibilities:
1) Mitt Romney because of his economic experience. However, (thanks to Huckabee) the fact that he is Mormon might prove a difficult obstacle, and he and McCain dislike each other. I would, however, say that he'd probably get a nice Cabinet seat. Treasury, maybe?
2) Charlie Crist because a) his endorsement delivered Florida and the nomination to John McCain and b) it would move Florida solidly into the Republican column, avoiding the threat of another voting fiasco.
3) Condoleezza Rice because a) she's African-American, b) she's a woman, c) she's definitely conservative, and d) she's well-known and well-liked internationally.
Sorry, Mike, but now even Jon Huntsman, Jr. has a better chance of becoming VP than you do."
McCain shouldn't pick Mitt Romney because that man has a problem with honesty (and he has the feel of a used car salesman to go along with it).
Charlie Crist??? I don't really know the man, I don't see the draw. I guess he is the governor of a big purple state (maybe he should have been one of the presidential candidates)
Condoleezza Rice is one smart cookie, but she is too close to the Bush administration and McCain needs to build some distance from that group. Plus, I've heard there is some talk about her sexual orientation and as much as democrats/liberals talk about tolerance that would be exploited/brought up by Obama's surrogates.
I think given the current recession, that McCain would do well to ask Warren Buffett (billionaire via his investment) to be his VP. The man is giving huge amounts of his wealth to charity, is quite the independent populist, and knows alot about economics.
Complain about this comment
Shame on Huckabee! - it is also a disgrace that some of the US media have treated it and seen it as a Joke!
You would have thought by now The Republicans after watching Hillary and her campaign of errors would have identified that personal smears and attacks like currently being made on Michelle Obama do not sit well with the majority of voters, but then again like Hillary desperate people do desperate things!
Complain about this comment
chewbacca: I think you're unaware of how heavily the black population in the US breaks for Democrats. In 2004, Kerry won 88% of the black vote. In 2000, Gore won over 90%. So even if I accept your argument that putting in Rice for VP will 'cancel out' Obama's extra appeal (and I don't), the democrats are still likely to take over 90% of the black vote.
If McCain wants to win, he should go after the right leaning independents that Clinton was trying to capture, while pushing the Republican base as hard as he can.
Complain about this comment
It was quite funny actually.
Political correctness gone mad once again.
Complain about this comment
Off the cuff slip? Yes.
It shows amazing poor judgement! He's saying: "yeah, someone is trying to assassinate a politican - what of it!?" In the light of the potential Debbie Palfrey (DC madam) apparent suicide (and more likely a political assassination), this isn't a subject to handle lightly.
Potential VP (and one step away from President)? I certainly hope not!
Complain about this comment
It seems some on this blog are applying 'European values' to an American setting. Huckabee's comment wasn't all that scandalous by [generally] American standards. For instance, some British/European ways of phrasing things seem a bit offensive from an American perspective (those of European descent seem to 'settle' in Africa, etc., whereas non-European descendants 'immigrate' to Europe; some attitudes expressed by Europeans seem to be at least condescending and paternalistic toward non-Europeans/'whites' if not full-fledged racist.
Anyway, Huckabee's odds for the VP spot were single digits at most, anyway. He could get a few evangelicals (not all), but many pro-Romney fans still harbor a huge grudge against him for derailing their candidate, and his somewhat liberal (in the American sense) economic views would turn off fiscal and libertarian conservatives.
chewbaccadefense, a Rice VP candidacy would not automatically split the 'black' vote. a) Many 'blacks' (unfairly) consider Rice to be a traitor, largely due to the belief that the Republicans are a racist group in general, rather than a small fringe of racists who identify themselves as conservative (and Christian). The vast bulk of Republicans, conservatives, and Christians are non-racist.
b) The Presidency trumps the Vice Presidency--by a long shot. However, since many are commenting about McCain's age, the Vice Presidency could garner more attention this election cycle.
c) While it does seem to be that many (not all) 'blacks' are voting for the 'black' candidate (as opposed to some 'whites' who are voting not for the 'white' candidate, but against the 'black' candidate), many of them also support Obama's stronger economically leftist credentials (the same as some blue-collar 'whites' would if they weren't racist). McCain is more-or-less economically conservative and a supporter of free trade and [illegal alien] reform. In their view, a McCain Presidency would endanger their jobs and livelihoods by outsourcing their jobs to China and India while driving down wages in the United States by letting in a flood of workers from Mexico who are willing to work for cheap.
P.S. Great username, though. Might have considered a Star Wars-themed username, too.
Complain about this comment
Dear oh dear. That one backfired, and is going to come back to haunt him for the rest of his political life.
Complain about this comment
Political and professional suicide???
Joking around about shooting a presidential candidate, from the other party, the first black candidate in history, in front of the NRA is criminal, not to mention sinful. There is truth in sarcasm and he has just crossed the line to the dark side. Humor or no humor, that asinine comment was offensive and moronic. It deserves far more than just a simple apology.
Complain about this comment
@boro-rat: "I will be interested to read how our friends in the British Isles see the two candidates (I don't count Senator Clinton any more). How do the polls there compare with ours? thank you for allowing me this avenue to express opinions."
No matter in which modern European or otherwise Western country you ask, you'll get about 70% in favour of Obama, hands down.
Complain about this comment
I don't see why Huckabee thought this woudd be funny. I also don't see why people consider this offensive. Neither Obama nor anyone in his family has ever been shot. If you're projecting the second coming of MLK or JFK onto him then that's your weird deal, not Huckabee's. I note that the joke didn't actually involve Obama being shot, by the way, or even shot at.
No one gasps in horror when Cheney-shooting-people jokes are made even though the guy he shot might have died.
Complain about this comment
"Stunning misjudgement...VP chances down the drain"
Come on Justin!
Worse has come from the Clinton campaign!
I'm an Obama supporter and I don't find this offensive...just stupid.
Complain about this comment
As to the Democrat Vice Presidential stakes, HRC is no longer the favourite. It's Jim Webb, leading by a nose....
Complain about this comment
Regarding Rice as a Republican VP nominee:
1.) She doesn't want it.
2.) She'd do nothing towards getting the 'black vote', because many consider her an "Oreo" (black on the outside, white in the inside)
A non-starter.
xx
ed
Complain about this comment
The foreign policy establishment is highly critical of Rice.
Admittedly this is from New Statesman, what you might call a Social Democratic journal, but it gets the points across.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200709060026
Anyway, she is just too much Bush's woman. McCain is trying to distance himself from Bush, after all. Chosing her after a less-than-illustrious career at the State Department (she being, after all, one of the lesser architects of the Iraq War) would stink of tokenism, which would just confirm to minorities that, although the GOP isn't necessarily racist, it is certainly awkward around them.
Regarding Obama's popularity in Europe - there is a definite bias, except for a few exceptions (generally women), towards Obama. No-one is going for McCain, not even the conservative publications, after the last eight years which have effectively tarnished the name 'Republican' in the minds of the British people.
As for Huckabee... pretty tasteless, really. I never really thought him a wise choice for VP. Remember, Vice Presidents are for four years, not just for November - if McCain conked out (not beyond the bounds of possibility), you would be left with Huckabee as President.
And that really would be four more years of Bush!
/-_
Complain about this comment
I think it'll be one of the following:
1 - John Edwards (blue collars)
2 - Bill Richardson (hispanics and NRA)
3 - Kathleen Sebellious (women)
Having Hillary on the ticket would be seen by many (if not most) Obama supporters as a betrayal having voted for change and ending up with the establishment sitting on the back of the bus.
Complain about this comment
Sooner or later most politicians say dumb things that are recorded and aired for public consumption. How about President Reagan's crack about bombing Russia starting five minutes from now. That put the entire Soviet rocket forces on high alert.
How about Hillary running for VP...as McCain's running mate. Those calling for Cinton to step out of the race should remember that she gave up a perfectly good divorce with likely an outstanding financial settlement to get a chance to run for President. She isn't about to give up for the good of the party considering what she has sacrificed already.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It wasn't a "misjudgement", which implies he thought about it and made the wrong decision. He was simply showing his true, hateful soul.
Complain about this comment
Marcus,
Don't you think you're being a tad cynical as regards the Clinton's marriage? I genuinely believe that it is not a marriage of convenience. In any case, Bill Clinton had relatively little in savings after paying his legal bills. Alimony, of course, is a different matter.
As for Hillary as McCain's sidekick... I doubt he'd want her, and I doubt whether she'd want to sever all ties with her party to join another that would never really take to her. She really is too liberal be even a liberal Republican these days!
/-_
Complain about this comment
Hints of 'something terrible' happening to Obama are beginning to appear in the media - I heard it on Channel 4 News this week (made by an American commentator I hasten to add).
They weren't more explicit, but assassination certainly crossed my mind.
Complain about this comment
Slasher,
What did you do to offend the Gods?
Complain about this comment
One of the paradoxes of this great country, that a man that refuses to accept Evolution as fact, is even considered to be a vp candidate. As for the joke...not much to be said apart from the fact that evidences a lack of tact towards very sensitive issues regarding violence against political figures and furthermore...this particular candidate.
Complain about this comment
Wow! We seem to have broken the whole internet presence of the world's greatest communications organisation!
Welcome back, BBC!
xx
ed
Complain about this comment
Like Reverend Wright, Reverend Huckabee played to the audience. They are both stand-up comics disguised as men of God. Huckabee's 'joke' could just as well have come from an Afrikaner minister referring to Nelson Mandela.
Complain about this comment
After this comment, if he is even considered for VP, let alone given the position, then there really is no hope for republicans. Obama will handle this as he has all the other barbs and innuendos hurled his way.
Complain about this comment
Since misjudgement must inevitably lead to the subject of judgement itself, might an unrelated question be asked of Obama, Clinton and McCain, which would be "should the USA, France and Britain invade Myanmar (Burma) in order to bring relief to her people?" Both France and Britain have suggested that the present government there is close to a criminal act by not distributing aid or accepting more. Even now an American vessel is waiting to unload but is prohibited from so doing. Perhaps President Bush might consider this humanitarian option which could bolster his ratings.
Complain about this comment
David,
Myanmar Military manpower
Total armed forces 492,000 (Ranked 9th)
Active troops 492,000 (Ranked 9th)
Total troops 564,250 (Ranked 26th)
Hmmmm
xx
ed
Complain about this comment
Now It's the media's fault!
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
justin time,
John McCain wouldn't see eye to hip with Mike, that's a liberal lookin' at a near conservative. Bad joke, not funny and poorly presented in any case.
Complain about this comment
I didn't see it as an assasination joke but rather a joke about Hilary's snipers-and-no-reception-committee story.
No biggie.
Complain about this comment
#45/46 Ed - I see what you mean about military numbers, but it still might be an interesting question, just to get a reaction from them. With regard to "it's the media's fault" I do think she has a legitimate point. You probably do not see all American news shows in Bonnie Scotland and it seems to me that three major networks have had a bias towards Obama. The press as well have pushed him - I would say 'his agenda', but other than hope and change, not a great deal has been heard about what he might do should he get to The White House. Reporters here seem to have an affinity with him rather than her, possibly because many would be in the same age bracket, and his campaign is self-perpetuating, the grass roots movement, phenomenal fund raising and so forth. These are all stories which, understandably, resonate with the largely liberal media and the Clinton campaign gets short shrift. It's been an uphill battle for them and Mrs Clinton has been seen to her advantage - and to Obama's disadvantage - in more formal settings like the "debates" they have had. His much vaunted oratory never appears when he has to speak extemporaneously, whereas she's much more at home with an open microphone. I don't know if anyone has calculated the column inches both candidates have received, but I would say that Mr Obama has more than Mrs Clinton.
Complain about this comment
The joke is that Obama would never be backstage waiting to speak at an NRA event. Huckabee was reacting to an unexpected, out-of-sight noise and his joke was cover that played out poorly.
Huckabee's VP chance was shot when he proposed getting rid of the IRS by replacing income tax with sales tax and giving money to lower income families to offset the unfair burden that would be placed on working class households.
This is Huckabee:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=985eCuC0U20
Complain about this comment
Now I know what the other more seasoned blog fans mean by bias. The fact that your blog hopped on the non-issue ridiculous video sound bite of Huckabee trying to bring a little levity to a speech is just another example of no one focusing on substance. Whether it be Obama saying sweetie or Huckabee trying to crack a joke. Newsflash--party members pander to their party supporters.
Complain about this comment
Actually, Huckabee missed his calling,
he should be a psychotherapist. After
I listen to one of his speeches I have
this feeling of euphoria which lasts for about
5 minutes.
Then, I can't remember anything of
substance that he's said.
As far as VP goes, that was never in
the cards. But, the "President's Analyst,"
that's a possibility.
Complain about this comment
And deaf people are supposed follow this how?
Complain about this comment
David,
Perhaps, as with Gordon Brown, it's all down to an (in)ability to spontaneously and convincingly smile
Both Barack and John Edwards can smile and light up a room. I've not been able, despite considerable effort, to find a photo of HRC smiling attractively and genuinely, and the number of shots of her "lecturing" is amazing. Now that may be press bias, but surely there can't be none at all?
Even Rev Wright, in his interview on PBS gave us a few lovely smiles. Bill Clinton used to have a pretty good smile as well.
Are we that shallow, that it all comes down to a good smile? Or is it truly a window into the soul, and therefore a very valid indication/
Sunday morning thoughts...
Peace to all,
ed
Complain about this comment
Is there something wrong with this politically correct world that no-one can say anything if it may offend one man? The poor guy didn't even think twice about his comments as there was no intent or malice in his words, but shortly after his speech his advisers will have told him that he upset a few sad individuals who want to monitor everything everyone says. I feel sorry for Mike Huckabee.
Complain about this comment
In response to the man/woman (i wouldn't want to offend anyone) who has asked how a deaf person might follow this blog, it states at the top of this page 'This is a stunning misjudgement from Mike Huckabee - surely inexcusable'. I think a slight bit of effort on your part before whinging that the BBC is discrimatory towards deaf people might result in you finding out about this news story, just type it in google or something. People are so quick to complain these days.
Complain about this comment
It was an off the cuff remark but it was in bad taste (even if the gun reference was slightly in context during a speech to the NRA). The danger of assination is not really a joke a politician should be making. It's a error of judgement which is disapointing. As for VP I doubt that that was Huckabees aim and I also doubt that McAin was ever likely to choose Mike. Mike would give some support to the McCain campaign but I think McCain will not choose a "shore up the base VP" but rather opt for someone more likely to draw independents from Obama.
You're all doing very well !!
Complain about this comment
And how about this?
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
The burning Bush?
xx
ed
Complain about this comment
re: #58 from Ed Iglehart:
Given the mission of the Secret Service to protect Presidents, candidates, and selected others, I can understand the necessity to prohibit firearms at an event such as that (the irony that it's an NRA convention is somehow delicious, no?). However, banning pocketknives, nail clippers, and the like in that situation is asinine beyond belief. That the Secret Service, once considered to be an elite agency, has fallen to the level of the TSA is deplorable.
Regarding the Huckabee incident: Puerile and unfunny, absolutely; but, in and of itself, this incident is/should be insignificant. In my view, he is/was eminently unqualified for any high office for a number of reasons, but this should have no bearing at all.
And to Mr. Webb: Very poor judgement on your part to leave such a fatuous "story" as THE blog entry to occupy your loyal followers for an entire weekend.
Complain about this comment
Huckleberry was never a serious candidate to begin with. No big surprise here. Anyone remember the first few debates in which so many hung on every word each of the candidates said? The media including BBC made a bid deal out of it but as always, most fell by the wayside as political roadkill, some quickly, some slightly later. They each lacked something, most just credibility. Remember who was in it or what any of them said? At the time I said it would all soon be forgotten especially when the real heavy hitters emerged from the pack and the true race for the White House got underway. Expect the velvet gloves to come off and the real slug fest to begin. Obama is going to get hit very hard repeatedly, often below the belt. Expect every last thing he ever did or said to be put under a microscope and spun against him. And expect a lot of lies too. If there is one thing American political campaigns are famous for, it's a lot of lying. Can he take it? Can he fight back? Can he keep his cool without cracking under fire? When you see it, consider it just one more test of his skill as a potential leader. Like every other aspect of the campaign such as its grueling relentless pace, it is a test of the kind of pressure he will face if he ever gets into office. McCain will face the same ordeal. The Democrats are no less mean spirited, unethical, and downright scoundrels than the Republicans are. Nor are they any less determined to win by whatever means they have at their disposal, legal or otherwise.
Complain about this comment
Oh, please!! I heard references to some great mis-statement by Gov. Huckabee, and it turns out to be this???
When an experienced speaker hears a distracting noise near the podium, he will break from the script, offer an aside to acknowledge that something happened, and refocus attention on the speech and the speaker. That's all that happened!
We may be approaching a point where no one can say anything, anytime, about anyone, for fear of insulting someone, somewhere, sometime!
As one observer notes: 'First, we couldn't talk about Sen. Obama's ears. Then we couldn't talk about his 'blackness', then we couldn't talk about his 'whiteness'. We can't talk about his voting record, we can't talk about his pastor, we can't talk about his wife, we can't talk about his policy statements, we can't talk about his friends, we can't talk about his associates, his past or his future. So what DO we talk about??'
I think this moment is offered to distract America's attention from the content of Mr. Huckabee's speech--which, if pondered seriously, and taken to heart, poses a much greater threat to Mr. Obama and the Democrats than any attempt at spontaneous humor at an NRA convention.
And, if some of our fellow posters are darkly worried about guns--the safest place to be is at an NRA convention. Guns in the exhibit hall are all unloaded, and the NRA members know best about gun safety. It's not the NRA members who stage the drive-by shootings, friends and neighbors.
The US liberal media, and the Democrats, know that. That's why they despise the NRA.
Complain about this comment
Peterm (60),
Regarding Jim Webb, Could you be more specific? Was it this?
Salaam, etc.
ed
P.S. I've got money on Webb as VP ;-)
Complain about this comment
I'm definitely not supporting the man here, I'm not a Republican, but it seems his lack of wit and his inability to "think of a joke quickly" is more at fault here.
I'm sure that two seconds after he said those words, he wished he could have "shut up", or at least thought of a better gun-related joke more appropriate to the situation.
Unfortunately, it's said and done and he has to live with it.
Here in the US we don't forgive mistakes very easily...and if he can't think quickly in a minor situation, what would he do in a dangerous situation as a presidential or vp candidate?
We don't need poor thinkers to run the country.
Complain about this comment
The remark by Huckabee, was the remark of someone who can not think on his feet. Linked to the Annie Oakley / Under fire episode it might have brought a smile. Terrible. At least he has apologised to all.
Wonderful night and early morning for fishing here. Overcast, windy, rough sea- perfect. Didn't catch anything of size, so no fishermans story. Nothing big took the bait but perhaps you will, and I can sell you a whopper.
David_C warns us as usual about the fat lady not yet singing.
Ed writes that Hillary has defended Obama about Hamas and will work her heart out for the nominee, to unite the party. Could be Ed, but for someone who appears heartless, and with a very clever but in my opinion a twisted mindset I beg to differ.
Ronaine writes that the larger threat could come from within and cites a womans'group [running on hormones?], that is trying to organise an all member support to shoot down the nominee if Hillary does not win.
Even MAII, in informative mode expects lots of dirt, distortion and outright lies and he is correct.
I too feel that racism will prevail, and with sexism, abuse, religion, homophobia , all will be aired further. Dependant upon the prose of the candidate and the poster, many have already slipped through the moderators nets, to reach all the blog media. Some have been censored and removed after posting but slime sticks, and eloquent slime can stick like superglue. Once brought to the fore it spreads like a cancer. Even on this blog we have seen the Blazing Saddles approach :- "The new sheriff [nominee] is a n.......BONG." Fortunately Ed and others, including the moderator, playing the part of trustworthy Jim, the Waco Kid, have nipped it in the bud, but for how long into the big game?
Eventually the remaining candidates concrete positions and visions will be debated across the table so ignoring the above slime, why is it that Davids' reaction to trivia worries me the most.
We have had the lapel pin, waffel, monster, smoking bit nearly everyday. Mccain uses the c word for his wife and it dissappears without a trace. A "sweetie" remark, that any father with young kids, asked a question at an inappropriate moment uses, - a term of endearment, on a par with the english "love, darling, honey, treasure"etc etc, and America is up in arms!!! Where will it go from here? What will the next trivia gaffe or trivia truth be to hit the headlines to appeal to the hunter, gatherer, provider, caveman, family approach of the American voter to successfully cripple a candidate? If you are thinking we have had everything so far, you are forgetting one other. Animal Cruelty!
Somebody will turn up with a story about an Obama family goldfish or budgie that has been flushed down the toilet, even though it was dead. Or, Mrs Obama goes horseriding and spurs the horse. Should Obama order a live crab or lobster, we will all be prive' to its screaming, cooking in the pot, and as with the above examples it will reach the press via a grainy video taken on a cellphone. But lets not forget the Disney stories. The "Old Yeller" and Lassie type stories that will click with all ages. Who could resist a sick or defenceless dog story if it could be pinned on Obama? I know many of you would like Hillary to be the one taken behind the wodshed and just like in Old Yeller "eased" from her pain, but with just a plant, [ as used in previous trivia stories], a cooperative opposition supporter to instigate a scene, together with subtle video editing and it could be Obama who must pay the price for being the present front runner. Game over. Welcome to the world of politics today.
"Youvé got to remember, that these are just simple farmers, these are people of the land, the common clay of the new west. You know ......morons"
Complain about this comment
Mr Huckerbee: Funny? No. But inexcusable? No.
It's tragic, you know: some of the finest to win by the ballot are taken by the bullet.
I'm reading "Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers" (2003, Penguin) by Daniel Ellsberg at the moment, to try to gain insight into the lessons America perhaps has failed to heed from that period, especially when it comes to waging war.
One of those lessons for me is this: for much of the fine talk that was heard then about a desire to promote democracy around the world, the politicians and their servants of that period had, for much of the time, a breath-taking contempt for the opinion of John Doe, and rarely hesitated when it came to spinning a good yarn if they judged it politically expedient.
Has anything changed, George?
Complain about this comment
re: #63 to Ed Iglehart
My comment was directed to Mr. JUSTIN Webb, whose blog this is, for his selection of the vacuous Huckabee non-story as his blog entry to tide us over for the weekend.
Complain about this comment
The real irony of all this is that the NRA did not allow people to carry guns into their annual gathering.
These folks know how dangerous they are.
There was a secret service contingent there setting up rules about stopping guns from entering the meeting, because McCain is the Republican candidate. The attendees were not even allowed to bring in pocket knives.
One of the speakers who was cheered told how he had slapped someone with a foreign accent for insulting America.
These people are dangerous and violent.
Its not funny to me.
Complain about this comment
Waterman,
Move over Joyce, you've got competition!
Peterm,
(doh!) ;-(
Complain about this comment
OldSouth
Seems to me the IRA members didn't put their money where their bullets are. Didn't Huckleberry complain that his campaign ran out of gas because he ran out of green ammo? He no more reflects the mainstream of American politics than Obama does. One more kook bit the dust as political road kill.
Complain about this comment
Dear Mr Moderator,
I apologise I apologise I APOLOGISE!
I read my copy again and realise that I too believe I am making a sexist remark . Can I talk about hormones? - We all have them!. Even if I had said the genetic make up of a woman, the mothering instinct, a mother protecting her young ?Would I still be regarded as I regard myself now, with my other comment, as sexist???
I still don't know whether this would be overstepping the mark and like many before me who reach the sin bin level I am just attempting to introduce fiction and fact, not smear!
See , there you go - Another hormonal comment!
Hoping you and the world will accept this apology!
After all it was almost a fishermans' story so you must expect something to slip through my net.
Complain about this comment
Mike Huckabee really is a clone of George Bush! They even have the same tasteless humour. But it doesn't matter. Huckabee never had a real chance of becoming President nor Vice-President. We shouldn't pay to much attention to him.
Complain about this comment
Bethpa,
I hate to burst your bubble, but NRA
members are not very violent, and
include quite a few peace officers.
I would suspect that the crime rate
among NRA members is far lower than
the general population.
I am not currently one, but I was for
most of my early adulthood, and
I support pretty much everything
they stand for.
If you want to find a bunch of extremists,
you'll have to look somewhere else.
Complain about this comment
# 65. watermanaquarius wrote: "Davids' reaction to trivia worries me the most." I can't tell if Waterman lives in the USA or not but, if so, he (or she) will know how even the implication of violence alarms the American public - and especially since the possibility of assassination has been quietly mentioned, with the parallel of Martin Luther King. Mike Huckabee was no doubt making an attempt to be humourous - that it failed, as demonstrated by the poor response of the audience, indicates to me that even at the time it was thought to be a tactless remark. The very combination of guns and politics is difficult since four Presidents have been assassinated while in office and another five have had attempts on their lives. In addition there was Huey Long and Robert Kennedy, who had presidential ambitions, not to mention Theodore Roosevelt who had hoped to return to the presidency. In the light of those incidents I don't see that Huckabee's remark can be considered trivial.
Complain about this comment
An indirect comment about my joke about animal cruelty. I just put Sky news on to greet the story about Amy Winehouse and Pete Doherty playing with baby mice!. Now the RSPCA , an english animal protection society are putting their 2 cents worth into the story. It's a small world eh where fiction and fact have that habit of becoming entwined .
Check outYoutube if you want the video.The clip's called Winemouse.
Complain about this comment
guns and religion
I am an American. I have known people who were in the NRA and I know from experience that within that group are people who are bullies. The PA in my name is Pennsylvania...where they sometimes close the schools for hunting.
Some police are violent people also.
One predictor of people's values is whether they own a gun...
Can you tell me that if there were guns at the NRA meeting they could have protected a speaker form being killed? The Secret Service is trained to handle those kinds of situations and for them it is difficult ..but a group of people who have minimal knowledge about how to deal with someone in an armed situation..they think they can control an assassin..
Complain about this comment
Dear David, You misunderstood me. I would have thought that my double dutch explanations would be understandable seeing as a part ot the contingent on the Mayflower were from Holland.
Correct.- Huckabees'stupid remark is not trivia. No human loss of life is trivia. The bitter comment was also not trivia. But deliberately misunderstood perhaps so that it was bending Obamas true meaning.
But, didn't you find the pin thing , the has he started smoking again thing, and the -Gosh he's lefthanded and bowls like a lemon not trivia.??? Sweetie not trivia? You made the comment yourself yesterday saying it could result in Obama being beaten by a nose.
From Hillarys'side her knocking back shorts, etc etc., pantsuits and the rest of many "investigative" reporting articles not trivia??
I would ask you a question about a candidate that is not a trivial question but I believe it will be rejected due to the gentlemans agreements that are being carried out by all media outlets. But lets try. Imagine that I am a candidate and one of the strongest advisors to me and my team has a blank Wikipedia page wouldn't you start wondering. No date of birth, no qualifications . Nothing . Who has wiped it and why? I dont want a rundown of what they eat for breakfast, or any private details of their lives.
I'm here in Europe [not Dutch and not in Holland] looking for answers. If it was not for the fact that you and other voters were on the brink of nominating the most powerful person on this earth I would chose the solitaire card game on this computer.
You do the research. I've given you a hint . Comeback to me in code to thwart the moderator and we will see where this goes.
Perhaps the world needs another Australian reporter. They printed the monster trivia thing, and let slip the Prince Harry work in the middle east article. Keep us stupid today and reveal it and/or splash it on the front page tomorrow . The media wins. They always win.
Glad youvé mastered the blank link . Wish I was as courageous to try.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Bethpa,
I also grew up in PA.
I'm not sure what you mean by
your comment about prediction of
people's values. That sounds like
a fairly huge generalization.
As far the Secret Service is concerned,
I am sure that they set the rules concerning
what people are allowed to possess
when they are responsible for protecting
a political candidate, not the organization
at which he or she may be speaking.
As far as your characterization of NRA
members goes, I would have to take
offence at your remarks. You make it
sound like legal gun owners are all
rabid far-right destabilizers of the
political process, when, in fact, many
of us have defended that process,
and in particular, the Constitution, at
home and abroad in different ways.
Personally, I can't think of any organization
which has done more to advance gun
safety than the NRA, and I don't think
that they have anything for which to
apologize!
I now live in an area of the country
where drive-by shootings by illegal
aliens are a daily occurrence, and I
am pretty sure that none of them are
NRA members.
On the other hand, you might find that
some of those very same Secret Service
members who may have to lay down
their lives to defend the political process
are NRA members.
Now, as far as there being a few NRA
members who are bullies or something
like that, I have no doubt that they
exist, but I have never met one!
If you are so sure of your facts that
NRA members are a high crime group,
then please produce the evidence!
Complain about this comment
Ha ha, okay, so much for Huckabee. I thought it was tasteless, but I doubt he's even got a chance for VP.
The constant talk of 'the black vote' and that this or that canidate got 80% or 90% of said vote,... we still only total to 20% of population. And in many places, McCain has it going his way, in Texas we met with Obama long ago and if the primary was today, it would end alot different, more to Hillarys likin'.
Complain about this comment
guns and religion
The political parties are looking for voting clusters. One voting cluster is gun ownership. Based upon gun ownership predictions can be made about voting patterns.
I've gotten into arguments with some people who were in the NRA and they will distort the Constituion. They are not knowledgeable and base opinions upon emotions. They will define the Constitution as they believe it should be and they are imo dangerous. They will use guns and violence to defend their views and consider themselves to be uber American.
People imo should be able to own guns..as long as they are registered and they are qualified to own a gun. Imo gun ownership should have similar controls as the ownershop of a car..which can also be a lethal weapon. Not everyone should drive, not everyone should own a gun.
You have never met one person in the NRA who is a bully ? : ) ... Well that is absolutely unbelievable!!! : )
There are all kinds of polls, statistics etc to prove one point of view or the other about guns. I would not tust any of them.
I would highly doubt that illegal aliens are doing drive by shootings in large numbers. What state is that in? Can you post links to newspaper articles about these drive by shootings by illegal aliens?
Complain about this comment
There is a misunderstanding among Europeans and sadly some Americans about guns and the NRA. I do not own a gun, never have, and probably never will. But the right to own a gun to protect yourself, your family, your home is so deeply ingrained in American culture that nobody will ever take it away. It is enshrined in the Bill of Rights to the Constitution for a reason. Orignally, a gun was necessary for hunting and protection against wild animals and wild people. The gun over the hearth is as American as baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet. The carnage people inflict on each other as the result of gun violence is insignificant compared to the carnage a tyrannical dictatorship such as was the case in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia inflicted on the population as a whole. Perhaps the secret police would have been less likely to haul away anyone and everyone that struck their fancy if they faced the possibility that behind each door was the potential for a hail of bullets. Every politician who has made gun control a crusade has gone down in flames. Around 1970, a famous and much liked Senator from Maryland, Tydings made that very mistake. It ended his career. With probably over 200 million guns in private hands, you could never get them all. But even in nations with the tightest gun control, criminals seem to have no problem getting them while the law abiding population is left unarmed and defenseless against them.
Complain about this comment
bethpa,
You can start with these:
http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/NEWS01/805090304
http://www.modbee.com/1618/story/72474.html
But, in order to be fair there are many
gangs which are well established in the
US, and responsible for horrific crime
out here in the west, and I doubt that
many of them are NRA members.
Here are a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortenos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sure%C3%B1os
And of course, there are non-Mexican gangs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crips
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods
and many others.
Of course, this activity is not confined
to this side of the border, and these
gangs are even more powerful in Mexico,
as you can read in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7402523.stm
I could go on, but there is really no
paucity of information about how
widespread and dangerous these
gangs are.
The point that I'm trying to make is
that criminal activity is distinct from
gun ownership. I have a pretty sharp
kitchen knife, but I've never been tempted
to stab someone with it because I didn't
like they way they looked at me at
a bus stop.
Complain about this comment
49 david cunard
“ I don't know if anyone has calculated the column inches both candidates have received, but I would say that Mr Obama has more than Mrs Clinton.”
Someone did calculate it, back in February 2008, a Political Scientist from Wellesley, the link is here and also in this interesting New Statesman article http://www.newstatesman.com/200804030028
(Thanks Slasher 32 for the New Statesman link)
Complain about this comment
Bethpa,
BTW, as far as the Constitution goes,
I agree that it is subject to interpretation
with regard to gun ownership rights.
But, we don't just live by the Constitution,
we also have a body of common law which
precedes and postdates that document.
If you had asked a judge in colonial America
whether or not someone had the right
to own a gun, he would have looked at
you like you were crazy.
Complain about this comment
The US is a violent nation.
There are more people in jail per 100,000 population than in any other nation. And it probably has the highest absolute number of people in jail. Even assuming that there are nations that are lying about how many people they have in jail, comparisons with other western nations are not good.
So which is it? The US has more criminals or the US puts more people in jail?
This is hardly a nation that should be emulated.
At the time of the Constitution there were then also arguments about guns and how to control them. The founding fathers were not monolithisc in their opinions about guns or on a number of other issues.
Complain about this comment
If anyone wants to know about the origins of guns in the constitution, they should read Pocock on the Harringtonian Gun carrying Freemen. Fascinating stuff. Tomorrow I will look it up.
Complain about this comment
bethpa;
Don't think that just because people in other countries are murdered anonymously, quietly by the government they are not violent. Places like Nazi Germany, the USSR, Communist China, Burma, Zimababwe, Sudan, and a lot of others are very violent. By some accounts, Stalin murdered 80 million people in his reigns of terror. Mao is believed to have murdered 30 million in his Cultural Revolution. Pol Pot 2 million, 1/3 of his entire nation. Saddam Hussein one million. Idi Amin, at least 800,000. In many cases it was legal under their perverted laws. In a lot of these cases, the criminals are not in jail because they ARE the government. By comparison, the US is at peace. Don't think that just because people don't have guns, they are any less violent. In much of Africa, the method of murder is to cut off people's limbs with a machette.
Why are there so many people in prison in the US? Because they deserve to be. They are there because they have committed crimes and have been convicted. The laws and punishments are passed by democratically elected legislatures and the trials judged by ordinary citizens. The system isn't perfect and innocent people do get convicted but by and large it is the fairest system there is. When criminals were not punished so severely, say back in the 70s, in many places it was not safe to walk the streets. If the prisons are overcrowded, we need to build more of them.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
guns and religion,
What you have confirmed to me is that the US is a violent nation that is unable to control the spred of violence with its own policies. Its a failure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7402523.stm
is about drug cartels in Mexico and the fear that the violence will spred north
but
"Fully 95% of all guns being used by the cartels in Mexico originate in US gun shops. Many gun shop owners have been arrested, accused of being complicit in the trade."
"Wittingly or unwittingly, Americans, it seems, are arming something approaching a war on their southern border."
http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/NEWS01/805090304
there is nothing in this article about illegal aliens
this also is not about illegal aliens
http://www.modbee.com/1618/story/72474.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sure%C3%B1os is about the Mexican mafia, which is an American gang.
"The Mexican Mafia was formed in the late 1950s by Chicano street gang members incarcerated at the Deuel Vocational Institution, a state prison located in Tracy, California."
(Looks like home grown violence to me..started in the US)
(Well welcome to the violence of America...some melting pot)
"According to the FBI, the Mexican Mafia had arranged for contract killings to be carried out by the Aryan Brotherhood, a white prison gang. Both the Mexican Mafia and the Aryan Brotherhood are mutual enemies of the African-American gang Black Guerilla Family"...
(What a country ( sarcasm))
"While mostly found in California, the Mexican Mafia has a membership which extends to other states including Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico"
(Its American violence..not illegal aliens.)
America is a violent nation.
Complain about this comment
As far as crime rates go, it is true that
the US has a high crime rate (about
5 murders per 100000 population.)
But that's basically because we don't
lay down the law and let these gangs
get away with a slap on the wrist.
We don't really have a death penalty,
so gangs can thrive in prison, and
exert authority into the rest of society.
We also don't enforce our borders
effectively, and have provided a
huge revenue source for Latin American
drug gangs. This is really a problem
of hemispheric proportions, and not
something that we can solve merely
by putting up a fence, although that
would certainly be a good start.
Mexico, by the way, has a murder
rate 3 times that of ours. And,
much of Latin America is worse,
which in large part explains why
so many people from there are
desperate to get here. Here is an
old article link, but I'm sure the
situation is no better now:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4DE173AF934A35757C0A963958260
There are even entire towns on the
Mexican side of the border which are
completely controlled by gangs,
and people who get in their way
simply disappear.
There are many causes of violence,
but in the end, individuals have to
be responsible for their own actions.
There are many ways for communities
to reduce the factors that produce
violence, but at some point, we have to get
the point across to these gangs that their
behaviour is unacceptable.
It is not all "society's fault."
Complain about this comment
A pretty damning indictment from Robert S Strauss, a very senior Democrat:
Well worth a read in full.
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
A pretty damning indictment from Robert S Strauss, a very senior Democrat:
"I remember Ronald Reagan's ultimate political question: "Are you better off now than you were?" It's painful to compare the United States today with what it was in 2000. On indicator after indicator, we have fallen backward. Under the last Democratic administration, we had huge budget surpluses; now we wallow in debt. Real income was growing; now it is shrinking. The price of energy was contained; now it is out of control. We were at peace; now we are in a two-front war that threatens to expand to Iran...."
Well worth a read in full.
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Bethpa,
O.K., our problems are from the children
of illegal immigrants. Does it make a
difference?
Next time I'm in LA, I'll drop by a local
Crips or Bloods NRA chapter meeting,
if I can find it.
As far as guns south of the border,
if the Mexican government wants to
control gun ownership, I have no objection
to that. That's their right. And, I believe,
there has recently been progress on that
front.
I don't think it will solve the problem,
though. These international drug cartels
can get guns from anywhere.
Complain about this comment
University blighted by Terminator's Pesky ghost.
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Ed,
It really would be quite amazing if the
Dems manage to lose the election, wouldn't
it?
It was pretty amazing that they lost '04,
considering the trouble the country was
in back then.
I just don't understand these polls that
show McCain ahead. As the economy
goes into the tank, the fallout cloud has
to be heading his way.
Complain about this comment
guns and religion
America is an economically unjust nation. That is the underlying cause for the crime...And the beginning for changing a culture is with children in the schools. America is failing its children.
You have no way of knowing if the criminals are the children of illegal immigrants ..but we do know that they were born in the US and raised in the US culture.
The problems with drugs are complex and not easily solved. It needs a multi pronged approach.
Punishment by itself will only increase problems when the underlying problem is injustice. People have to think that if they work hard they will have a fair wage for their labor.
Complain about this comment
Guns'nReligion,
It would indeed be amazing, but...
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"
(apparently NOT P T Barnum)
Loads of folk have suffered by OVER-estimating general intelligence, sadly.
We can only wait and see (and hope)
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Dare I mention that it's the illegality of drugs which makes the trade so very profitable, and the profitability which breeds the competitive violence, or will I get ostracised for even suggesting a better way?
(ducks)
ed
Complain about this comment
bethpa
"America is an economically unjust nation. That is the underlying cause for the crime."
So what are you saying, from each according to his ability to each according to his need? That was the idea behind the economically just USSR.
Poverty, discrimination, and every reason under the sun has been given as an excuse for crime and criminals. The devil made me do it. I heard an inner voice. It all started out when I was a child and my mother didn't understand me and I was not properly potty trained. Sure, we've heard it all. In the 1960s a criminal judge in New York City "Turn 'em loose" Bruce Wright would dismiss any criminal case before him if the defendent was an African American because it was clearly society's fault, whatever he might have done. That's the kind of thinking that turned our streets into jungles and made our cities so crime ridden you weren't safe in your own home. Sorry bethpa but you are 35 years too late. The bus with the hippie generation left the station a long time ago.
Ed Iglehart
It doesn't surprise me that you would advocate legalization of dangerous narcotics and other addictive, mind altering, and potentially lethal street drugs. Now why doesn't it surprise me? I'm sure you know Adolf Hitler was a cocaine addict. I know what you would make illegal though but they have their own country now and it is in its own way no more unsafe than yours is.
Complain about this comment
ed iglehart
Yes the profitability of drugs is caused by the illegality. But at the same time a society that has many drug users will have problems.
Some people seem to easily become drug addicts. How do we keep them from becoming addicted? Make them aware of the dangers with an honest education and have support services for stress. Physical exercise programs and good communities with solid families would help.
If Americans continue to want to use punitive measures to control problems, America will fail.
Complain about this comment
I knew it!
Complain about this comment
marcus aurelius II
Some American families have both parents working 2 jobs and they still do not have health insurance. If that doesn't stike you as unjust I can't help you to understand what I am saying. The US is now the only western nation without universal health care and the statistics for the health of Americans is getting worse.
Because Americans are generally ignorant of other nations they can not make any comparisons but sure other nations have criminals. Which nations have fewer criminals and what are their cultures like? but most Americans think America is the only nation with good values..when in fact the US is falling behind other western nations..in education ..in health ,...and the US has a crime problem.
Complain about this comment
What typical cheap America bashing. What timing and irony. It was only a few days ago that BBC reported that a high percentage of teens in the UK use alcohol and illegal drugs to heighten sex and experiment with new sexual sensations. But to hear Ed Iglehart tell it, you'd think illegal drugs is almost an exclusively American problem when it is in fact a nearly universal problem. And of course like always, American liberals who know little of the world like bethpa are the European America basher's perfect foil. BTW Ed, there is probably far more money to be made from legal pharmaceutical drugs both over the counter and prescription than illegal durgs but if you can prove otherwise, perhaps the big pharmaceutical companies can buy off enough government officials to make their products illegal too and increase their profits even further.
Complain about this comment
BethPA,
"Because Americans are generally ignorant of other nations "
None so ignorant as your adressee!
xx
ed
Complain about this comment
Bethpa,
I agree with some of what you say.
One of my reasons for wanting to restrict
immigration is that I see the power of
labor unions eroding to nothing.
Without decent paying jobs, the middle
class of this country will be reduced to
poverty, and many of the social infrastructure
problems we are seeing are a result of that.
HRC deserves a lot of blame for the
problem - NAFTA won't work in its current
form, at least not out here in the southwest.
As far as universal health care, I believe
that we should focus on affordable health
care first.
Complain about this comment
I know something about Europe Mr. Iglehart because I lived there for two years. Now how long did you live in America since you claim to know so much about it?
Complain about this comment
bethpa, I am directly familiar with the problem of health insurance in the US having been out of work myself for an extended period and having had to struggle to buy my own. But when the Democrats controlled both the White House and Congress, what did they do? The plan Hillary Clinton came up with was awful. Whoever wins, whatever they promise in the campaign, they will still have the problem of paying for it. Perhaps if we hadn't defended Europe at our cost for 45 years in the cold war we'd be far richer and could easily afford it, our mistake.
One thing we certainly do not want to do and that is copy any of the defective systems in other countries like Canada, Britain and France. We do not want waiting lists. In Canada, when they need an operation and can't get one right away, they come here if they can afford it. In Britain, they pay private doctors out of pocket even though if they waited, it would be covered by NHS. And in France the nation spends half its GDP on medical care while our inefficient system spends only about a sixth. Our health insurance payment system is broken. Their health care systems are broken. You don't see people dying in the streets by the thousands or millions in the US because they don't have money to buy medical care. Even illegal aliens who have no mony get treatment when they need it.
Speaking of medical care, there is the issue of quality. When I lived in Bordeaux and attended the School of Medicine, I got to see something of their hospitals. American and Canadian medical students had a pact, that if one of us got really sick, the others would get him back to North America ASAP but at least to the American Medical Mission in Paris if nothing else. At that time, French medical care seemed comparatively primitive. In the US with an MRI and CAT scanner seemingly on every corner (well at least in every town of any size, even a small one) they are kept as busy as possible while doctors practice defensive medicine taking lots of tests to be sure they haven't overlooked anything they could get sued for. Yes mistakes do happen, every medical system in the world has plenty of horror stories but I'd take my chances right here. BTW, the French never were able to diagnose what was wrong with Arafat before he died in a French hospital and it took the British doctors long enough to figure out that the ex KGB spy had radon poisoning. Not that they necessarily could have saved him had they known sooner but it sure took them long enough. Expensive, inequitable in paying for it, I think the US health care system still provides the best care the world has to offer. So do lots of wealthy people in more primitive countries who come here when they need the best treatment money can buy.
Complain about this comment
Marcus Aurelius II
"And of course like always, American liberals who know little of the world like bethpa"
The nations I have traveled to:
Ireland, Great Britain, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Russia, Italy, Austria, Australia, Japan, Thailand among others...and I currently live in Canada. I've lived in Australia and Germany. So I have some knowledge of nations besides Britain and the US. And if more Americans traveled they would wonder why the US still does not have universal health care.
"probably far more money to be made from legal pharmaceutical drugs both over the counter and prescription than illegal durgs "
Perhaps you should read this book and it might also give some part of the explanation about why the US still does not have universal health care.
"Our Daily Meds: How the Pharmaceutical Companies Transformed Themselves into Slick Marketing Machines and Hooked the Nation on Prescription Drugs"
by Melody Petersen
"A devastating, often shocking, critique of a once proud industry that has been converted by corporate greed into a vast marketing machine that is often a menace to health. Petersen supports her indictment with an abundance of fascinating detail and human interest stories. An excellent contribution to the growing demand for better regulation of an industry that has grown way too powerful and heedless of the interests of its customers." —Marcia Angell, M. D., Senior Lecturer in Social Medicine, Harvard Medical School and Arnold S. Relman, M. D., Prof. Emeritus of Medicine and of Social Medicine, Harvard Medical School
Complain about this comment
I have a great idea bethpa, beat the system. Don't be part of it. Don't give in or play along with it. Next time a doctor prescribes medication for you, don't take it. Maybe you can visit a homeopathic pharmacy or a health food store and discuss your condition with the sales clerk. I'm sure they'll have some low cost herb that will fix you right up.
I've traveled to about 40 countries myself. That doesn't mean I know much about most of them. It seems to me you know very little even about your own country. A fist full of plane ticket stubs and a monthly rent receipt is no guarantee of an education.
Complain about this comment
Of course it all adds up. Ed, you are a refugee from the 1960s protest movement who never made it to the "me generation" in the 1980s. "Comes the Revolution," that was your marching slogan wasn't it? Turn on, tune in, drop out, that was the directive from the hippie guru Timothy Leary who tried to get all of America hooked on LSD. Free sex, free drugs, and deafening rock and roll. Now I see why you would advocate legalizing dangerous drugs. Did you do them? Me, never. I'm from your generation but I went the straight and narrow path. Got an excellent education, a great career, made lots of money. The difference between me and you is that I am happy and satisfied with the way things are. That's why I'm voting for McCain. And frankly, I think the war in Iraq is going just fine. 4000 dead in 5 years of war ain't spit. As for Iraq itself, why should I care?
You know Obama won't be able to make you rich but you are hoping he will make me poor. I don't think so. If he wins, one way or another I will figure out how to make lots of money out of it. Sell defense stocks, buy HMOs or something. Maybe more Exxon. Wheat futures. There's lots of money to be made from insane ideas to stop global warmng...and inadvertently create a worldwide famine in the process. BTW, my hearing is still excellent. I never did expose myself to deafeningly loud noise pretending to be music.
Complain about this comment
marcus aurelius
http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/286819
some quotes
"According to numbers from the Census Bureau and the National Center for Health Statistics, a baby born in the U.S. (factoring in both boys and girls) will live an average of 77.9 years. A kid born in England can expect to live about a year longer. Meanwhile, the German baby's life expectancy is 79 while a Norwegian child can expect to live 79.7 years.
Our neighbors to the north, Canada, have a life expectancy of 80.3 years and the Australians, Swedes and Swiss are even better at 80.6. Japan beats them all with a life expectancy of 81.4 years.
U.S. medical officials have dozens of answers for all this, ranging from Americans' propensity to smoke to their lack of exercise while eating too much. But Germany, for one, isn't exactly noted for its puritanical lifestyle.
The real reason is one that the defenders of the U.S. health system, if it deserves to be called that, refuse to admit: We're letting too many Americans go without adequate health care."
...............................
"The reality in America, where more than 47 million citizens are without health care coverage, is that the poor and now even a substantial number of middle-class folks don't get the health care they need when they need it. Americans ought to be ashamed, yet the country's leaders refuse to act because the entrenched special interests have been able to use their economic clout to resist a true national health insurance plan."
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/11/frances_model_healthcare_system/
France's model healthcare system
By Paul V. Dutton | August 11, 2007
"Although the French system faces many challenges, the World Health Organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population. The United States ranked 37".
"The French system is also not inexpensive. At $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in Europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the United States."
.......................
I also know how to read.
I've been in hospitals in Germany and Finland..and seen doctors in Sweden and Australia. I am very cautious about all doctors and all drugs and recomend the same caution to everyone .
Complain about this comment
guns and religion
"Without decent paying jobs, the middle
class of this country will be reduced to
poverty, and many of the social infrastructure
problems we are seeing are a result of that."
I agree. And when we have treaties like NAFTA we need to make sure that workers in other nations get good rights too. If they are lifted to our level then the corporations won't move there for the lower costs. The higher cost of transportation will also inclrease the costs of products produced in other nations.
Complain about this comment
bethpa
"The real reason is one that the defenders of the U.S. health system, if it deserves to be called that, refuse to admit: We're letting too many Americans go without adequate health care.""
How do you know? Nobody really knows why but this explanation fits your political agenda perfectly.
I know how we could save some money on our military budget to pay for health care. Let's pull out of Kosovo tomorrow. Let them kill each other. Who cares, it's a European problem anyway. Let's pull out of Iraq. Let them kill each other. Who cares, it's an Islamic problem. Let them settle it among themselves. If the oil gets cut off, I don't care. I've got enough money to heat and air condition my home and gas up my car no matter what it costs. What will you do though when the price of oil is so high you can't afford the gas to get to the doctor's office, complain that we don't have enough public transportation? Better stay in Germany or Australia or wherever you are.
"Although the French system faces many challenges, the World Health Organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population."
Didn't save Arafat did it? He was there a long time before he died and they never even figured out what was wrong with him. Best? what a joke. I've seen it with my own eyes.
"The French system is also not inexpensive. At $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in Europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the United States."
Half of every penny they make. Expensive? ludicrous. How long do you think they can keep it up? Sooner or later economic reality will catch up with it and come crashing in on them. Like all of their lavish social safety net, it was build on the backs of America taxpayers and is now unsustainable. Whatever will they do when the party is over and they are broke? Can't happen? Just wait a few years. Try to get a job in France. Their best and brightest are leaving like rats deserting a sinking ship. They go to London and even....OMG, yes New York City. No free lunch there.
Complain about this comment
marcus aurelius
Your mind is closed and I will not be able to open it.
I drive a Prius and own shares in the oil sands...the world is at peak oil and prices will only go higher imo...but you are so sure that you know my opinions based upon so little information...
good night
Complain about this comment
*yawn*
Mr. Webb, surely your assistant's could have found better material for us to bat around! Huckaby is so 3 months ago and not worthy of cable news outside of chum like this thrown to the cynical sharks. Btw...evolution is very much a theory and should be taught alongside another popular theory 'intelligent design'.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
bethpa
It is you who are irrational. I agree the health insurance system in the US is badly broken and needs replacement. But that is no reason to vote for someone who spouts off the same tired rhetoric we've heard from Democrats for decades when he has no viable program to offer. If he had something new to offer then he would be worth listening to. But he hasn't. Just the same tired old campaign slogans We've heard for two generations.
As for the cost of pharmaceutical drugs the economics are simple. It costs about 100 million dollars to bring a drug to market and takes around ten years. For each one that is successful, nine fail. The ones that succed have to pay for the ones that fail. That means a new drug must bring in a billion dollars for a pharmaceutical company to make a profit. In the non profit system, the USSR and China for example, they did not produce a single new drug of genuine value I know of in all the generations they existed. It is true that of the thousands of Chinese folk medicines some have genuine value. But sifting through which ones work, on what diseases, how they work, and what risks or side effects they entail, and then figuring out how to obtain sufficient quantity of the active ingredient in pharmaceutical grade purity though purification or synthesis of their useful molecules is a very time consuming and expensive process. Our science will accept nothing less and will not settle for anecdotal stories nor hit and miss variables of swallowing herbs and roots that might have too much, too little, or no usable ingredients at all. Our science and expectations are far beyond that. There is no pharmaceutical industry on the cheap. If you want to see if their profits are unreasonable, look at their balance sheets long term. On the whole they have their ups and downs but are usually pretty much in line with other industries. Alarmist anti-pharmaceutical clap-trap to sell books for a political agenda not withstanding. And no I don't work in the pharmaceutical industry.
Complain about this comment
O come on, where is your political knowledge?
How do you reduce your chance from zero to zero!
Huckabee already had zero chance of being VP.
What's more I think you Justin and many of the posters here know this full well, if not you are a very poor commentator and I don't believe that.
But your blogs have made clear your dislike of Huckabee for some time.
Its a different message you are really emphasising isn't it, this is entirely disingenuous.
Complain about this comment
Bethpa,
I'm not really all that familiar with labor
provisions in NAFTA. I do know that
CAFCA has been held up because the
authorities in Columbia seem to think
it proper to beat up labor organizers,
and otherwise intimidate workers.
Based on a poor record of performance
in negotiating trade accords, do you
think that the executive branch should
be allowed to negotiate trade deals
with foreign countries without congressional
approval?
Complain about this comment
Marcus,
Only thirty years.
BethPA, Namaste
While I agree with almost all your comments, I'm disappointed that you're in the tar-sands club. Have you looked at the area on Google Earth? It's almost as destructive as the "mountaintop removal" mining in Eastern KY and WV. It seems we will stop at nothing to fuel our hypermobility and "Standard of Living".
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed
Complain about this comment
MarcusAureliusII:
When talking about the Middle East in general, and Iraq in particular, it helps if you know what you are on about (and you clearly don’t, not at all);
1) The single biggest obstacle to a long-term peace for the people of Iraq is the coalition troops. Yup, you got it - yours and ours. Whether peace is possible after their departure is moot; it certainly isn't without: this is the only thing sunni, shia, Sadrist, Dawa and kurd agree on. There was no sectarian bloodbath before we invaded; it’s not hard to suss the single biggest causal factor.
Our troops are NOT there as a favour to Iraqis; they are there to secure oil, hence the privatisation bill the US is trying to push through the Iraqi parliament.
2) The US imperial conquest of Iraq was NOT a humanitarian 'liberation' mission AT ALL: it was a land-grab, pure n simple, and a spectacularly ill-judged attempt to ensure one pliant pro-west arab oil state, for oil and geo-strategic reasons. It's failed - totally.
3) Formed in the 20s, Iraq was a state cobbled together for British convenience, whose only successful rulers have been strongmen (including Saddam, who greatly improved public services, and women's rights). It will split naturally, as is inevitable.
4) stop kidding yourself your presence in ANY part of the m/east is in any way a favour to the people there. It is NOT: it is there to enforce American hegemony, and to prop up lousy rulers like the House of Saud.
Most of the m/east, except the rogue state Israel, fervently desire your departure. Except your troops stay for one reason alone, the same which keeps you in Iraq so unpopularly: oil. There is NO humanitarian motivation to ANYTHING the US has done in the M/east - ever
5) owing to EU rules there is free movement of Labour throughout the EU: it just happens that the UK is a 2-hour trainride away, and in very good economic health, and London is the epicentre of cool; as it happens, there has been net white collar immigration SURPLUS to France, over the past few years, and the French economy is in fair shape.
6) If you knew anything about Arafat (you don't, btw) you'd know he was on death's door by the time the french medics got their paws on him. As for litvinenko; there had not been ONE recorded case of polonium poisoning in the UK before then. Kinda makes it harder for the medics, wouldn’t you say, when dealing with a poison that becomes irreparably lethal far quicker than it becomes detectable?
Me, unless I was filthy rich, I'd take my chances with the french or British healthcare systems than the US one any day (I've known both, exte4nsively, being an asthmatic).
Complain about this comment
guns and religion
I favor getting as many people as possible involved in negotiations about treaties with other nations. I also favor unions to represent American workers.
What we have seen I believe is a domination of the US government by corporations that are multi nationals and have used America and its military forces for their own purposes. They needed cheap oil for the cheap transportation of their products around the world.
( Right wing jews have been used and I expect that the mess in Iraq will be partially laid at their doorstep and Israel will be partially blamed for the war..but that war was for oil and Israel was used as a justification..The Iraq War was all about money and power and nothing more. Iraq was vulnerable and it had oil.)
I suppose in the minds of their CEOs, they believe America is best served by the control of the government by business. But imo the people of America have been losing while in other western nations the people have been gaining. I think the elite have some notion about survival of the fittest..they and their offspring being fit in their minds..while the people at the bottom are unfit and so these elitests have the right to take as much as they can from people who are at the bottom economically. Both political parites..Republican and Democrat have been infiltrated with the money from these very wealthy corporations and the wealthy elitiest individuals and its going to be diffcult to get them out of power. Right now it looks like the Republicans have been most influenced by the wealthy elitests.
I support Obama and I am hoping that he will have so much support from the average American that he will be able to put through programs that help Americans and not these enormous corporations. Campaign finance reform could help so that honorable people who want to help Americans will not be cut out because they can not get enough financing to get their message out.
Complain about this comment
Ed Iglehart
Yes I am not perfect. and you are right about the tar sands. I looked up Jim Webb and I like him for vp..I would definitely support him. He has principles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Webb and I do not expect perfection in a human being...
: )
By the way I heard the 90% of the oil in the world is owned by governments. Canada is unusual that it has oil that is up for grabs by corporations. That may be a weakness for Canada and I would support nationalization of the tar sands...which may be against my own economic interests.
Complain about this comment
I want to make this clear.
In the US people have been sold a philosophy that government is incompetent and that the business sector is better at solving problems.
Then people with this philosophy ( business is better than gov't) get into positions in the govenrment and weaken the government from within.
(The incompetence of the Bush administration appointees is widely acknowledged)
The business community takes more power and any misjudgements by them is hidden or excused.
For example :
Mortgages were sold to people who would not be able to pay the monthly costs of a house. They would lose their house eventually .
In America many people are blaming the people who took out the mortgages.
Very little blame is placed on the poor business practices of bankers who loaned money to people who were poor risks.
Government could have regulated the loans...but gov't is considered incompetent in this philosophy and the market is supposed to regulate itself.
There was however incompetence on the part of the business community that loans were given out to people who could not repay them. But in the US corporate media the blame is being placed on the people who took out the loans.
Complain about this comment
Beth,
We're pretty much at one. You'll probably enjoy some of this, from my Mentor, Mr Wendell Berry of Kentucky.
Live well, Love life, be kind
ed
Complain about this comment
Ed,
Yes we agree. Take a look at this link and the comments from readers:
The Old Titans All Collapsed. Is the U.S. Next?
By Kevin Phillips
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/16/AR2008051603461.html
I think there is a change coming in America that the corporate news media is ignoring and trying to stifle by emphasizing nonsense and trivia in the tv news.
Maybe America will reinvent itself again. : )
(but Bush has done a lot of damage.)
Complain about this comment
Beth,
Good article. This,
echoes an observation I saw sometime ago that we're in trouble when the medium of the market becomes the market's chief subject, and, to quote my own ineffable wisdom,
"We are often cautioned that we must live in the 'real world' by folk
who mean 'money', a concept more abstract than theoretical physics."
My favourite weekly columnist on matters financial is Adam Abelson. I commend his scribblings and wry humour to you.
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
REMINDER
If they outlaw gay marriage, only gay outlaws will get married.
Complain about this comment
Streathimite in Milano;
Yes it would help if You DID understand anthing about the middle east which you clearly don't. All YOU understand is anti-American and anti-Israeli propaganda. The biggest obstacle to peace in Iraq is that it never should have been a country in the first place and drawing the map to make it one was according to Churchill himself the stupdest thing he'd ever done. Now the sectarian contradictions within Iraq are playing themselves out between al Qaeda trying to take over as s Suni theocratic tyranny and Iran trying to take it over as a Shia theocratic tyranny.
If by meaning a rouge state, the fact that Isreal is a non Arab, non Moslem island of democracy surrounded by an ocean of hostile Moslem tyrannies, then so be it. That is why we support them and guarantee that they will survive their terrorist neighbors who want to destroy them. That is why we are at war with Europe over it who wants to see the Moslems finish off what Hitler started.
Complain about this comment
"non Arab, non Moslem island of democracy"
A colonial European plantation of Apartheid pseudo-democracy, more like, defying innumerable UN resolutions and oppressing and murdering the majority native population....A discredit to us all
The irony is that the Israeli response to the Holocaust has been to become ethnic cleansers themselves, but we all know Americans 'don't do irony'. Do Israelis? I know Jews do.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed
Complain about this comment
Ed Iglehart
All you know is.....hate.
Complain about this comment
Ed Iglehart is a nice person...and not at all hateful
Complain about this comment
This video gives credence to Obama's remark that rural Americans "cling to their guns and religion." The Republicans and Hillary lambasted Obama a few weeks ago for making that remark, even though every word of it is true. Just look at the video: Here's a former Baptist minister speaking before a group of gun nuts.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
REVISED to my ORIGINAL DISPATCH:
I now understand what you are writing about...
Mike Huckabee, words--could have not be said.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS