Bashing the 'elite'
Obama claims Clinton's comments on Iran make her too similar to President Bush.
For me it was not Iran - it was gas (petrol!) that put me in mind of the president. This casual dismissing of the opinion of professional economists as "elite".
Years ago, I made a radio documentary about the Bush White House's attitude towards science and scientists, and I had a conversation with a White House adviser in which he dismissed Harvard and Princeton as "elite". He simply would not accept that they were elite for a reason - that they were places where great numbers of clever people got together and thought about things.
In other words, that they were universities. In other words, that they had opinions to be valued above those you might find in your local gas station.
Many Americans find this kind of nonsense very depressing. How ironic that another wealthy graduate of Yale is responsible for it.
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Mr Webb, you are depressingly right on the money here. The culture of anti-intellectualism in America is increasingly worrying as we watch it seep ever-more into public discourse and drive the Presidential race. But to see it come from a supposedly progressive candidate makes it all the more sickening.
In threatening to "obliterate Iran" and offering an obvious pander, in the form of a moratorium on gas-tax, is not just cheap demagoguery but extremely irresponsible.
Just when America sleep-walks into a skills and innovation deficit, here we have a presidential candidate offering impotent solutions to complex problems and in turn, contributing to a corrosion in respect for (higher) education.
Paradoxically, adopting this marketing ploy will only serve to further the accusations of elitism, for surely by doling out superficial promises and then discussing the minutiae of economics behind closed doors, reinforces the idea that there is a chasm of cultures in America and thus an arrogance amongst those who are graduates of higher education.
Shouldn't our leaders be challenging us to rise to the occasion rather than stoop to the lowest common denominators?
Unfortunately, there are those of us who are only too happy to view the race to the Presidency as less a political contest and one more akin to American Idol.
http://oddlyamerican.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/jeremiah-wright-americas-next-top-idol/
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Being anti-elitist is as bad as being elitist. Same goes for other anti-things.
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obliterate Iran??????? this word from the english dictionary means to wipe out or eliminate! ops!!! #1 Oddlyamerican you said it all.. thanks for your comment!
we've had enough of this ideological clash between America and Iran. what America needs now is someone who can dialogue and really understand the arab league countries and it's time the US start paying some respect to them!!! Hillary's comments were the same as that of MacCain!!! l don't think America needs tyrants as presidents.
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Clinton calling Obama "elite" is just spin. She is the very model of the elite of the democratic party and in no way mirrors the working class she claims roots in. Her strategy at this point is to try to strong arm the nomination using whatever tactics she can, saying she appeals to the working class. And then again, another Clinton presidency is worth millions in speaking fees.
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All the Clinton verses Obama conflict does is drive more people into MacCain's camp. As for the elite bashing and stooping to the lowest common denominator is just a ploy to grab up undecided voters. The ironic thing is that both democratic presidential hopefuls come from the institutions they now condemn as elite. Hypocrisy? I think so. Then again based on what Clinton has said so far in this democratic race is just unbelievable, so I suppose this latest comment shouldn't be a surprise. In my opinion the last person who should be president is Clinton.
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my god I'm amazed . finally Matt you got it right.
She is Bush in a skirt.
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I couldn't agree more. The anti-intellectualism climate that exists in the United States seems deeply ingrained in American society. Of course it was this exact sentiment that allowed George W Bush to be elected in the first place. Once more the West Wing nailed it right on the money with Bartlett's comments to Republican candidate Rob Ritchie, when accused of calling him Stupid.
"I wasn't Rob, but you've turned being disengaged into a Zen like state, and you shouldn't enjoy it as much is all" came the reply.
Obviously the Ritchie character was designed as a criticism of Bush, and Bush displays these exact same qualities. President Bush is clearly not a stupid man, yet his persona is that of "folks like us." Everything he does is designed to come across as an average, down to earth kind of guy. It seems that the way to win elections in the United States is to appear as an 'ordinary American' whatever that might be. I find it utterly depressing that qualities such as powerful intellect and a great education are actually viewed as negatives by some people when looking at a candidate.
Anyway, shame on Hilary Clinton for trying to pander to the masses in this way. The gas tax policy is nothing more than a gimmick designed entirely to get votes. If anyone thinks this 'gas holiday' is being supported by her with the good of the country in mind, rather than the good of Hilary Clinton they are deluded. Her criticism of Obama for being an elitist is appalling, when it blatantly is not true. Any respect I had for her is now well and truly gone.
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All of this proves that our skills deficit
is at the top.
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Bashing the elite??? I guess Americans do irony pretty well after all.
I look for the same qualities in a president that I look for in my doctor. So incredibly elite that I may be forced to wear gloves just to shake their hand.
Lets have a president so well educated that ivy spontaneously grows where ever they give speeches.
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bobgodwin:
...we need to have dialogue with Iran...
With respect, how can one have dialogue with someone who's been calling you the "Great Satan" since 1980? Do you think anything rational could come out of it? Yes, not all Iranians hate America, just the ones in power. But then, maybe you agree with them. I certainly get the feeling, from some of the comments here, that there's a lot of Americans who hate their country, their civilisation and would love to see it sink. That truly is a sign of decadence.
As for the "monster" being Bush in a skirt - don't think I've seen her in one - at least during the primaries.
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This does seem a bit familiar.
Unfortunately it appears that the less well educated voters are not educated enough to realise that the well educated are making a well educated decision.
Voting in a second Bush wasn't a good idea.. hey, why not try a second Clinton!
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I consider all of the politicians running to be elitist, with very little understanding of how the average American works and lives. Nor do I believe that any amount of education is going to make someone into a leader. It simply doesn't work that way. I'm more than familiar with what the Ivy League has to offer and it isn't very impressive on any level. Education in this country is an industry, nothing more, nothing less.
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I think you might think about the similarities between HR Clinton and Richard Nixon, especially in their appeals to "white-blue collar male workers".
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What we need in Congress are less lawyers and college graduates and more graduates of UHK - the University of Hard Knocks. I am a proud graduate of that school, and I learned that good old common sense solves most of the problems we face. We need more positive action on the floor of the House and Senate, and less of these ridiculous, time -and money- wasting committees that the Democrats seem to be so fond of since they gained the majority.
Yale and Harvard apparently don't teach the subject of common sense, but how to reach into our wallets when they attain positions of power.
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So what do the Obambi supporters think would happen if Iran dropped a NUCLEAR bomb on Israel? After all that was the question.
Also I'm sick and tired of people saying the educated vote for Obambi. I'm as educated as you can get (in degree terms) but would never vote for him. Why you ask, no track record and his unrealistic plans. If he thinks he can change washington he's in dreamland. The question should really be why do the educated vote for Obambi when he is obviously out of his depth. Clinton is clearly the best candidate supply detail not rhetoric.
It's not the educated who have to worry where the next pay cheque is coming from. It's not the educated that need to worry about medical bills.
It is the educated that have the luxury of voting for high ideals that have no chance. In short everyone considering voting for Obambi shame on you think of the working class!
One thing that really irritates me is Obambi on Iraq. He says I was always against it blah...blah. He wasn't in the senate on the day the vote was made. Never VOTED! But the press never point this out. He NEVER had to make the decision! Because he NEVER had a vote, he wasn't there yet!!!!!!!!
Obambi " I have a dream today, that all the world will be a happy place. That there will be not poverty or greed. No religious divide. I have a dream today......Or is that hope"
You Obambi supporters believe this trash, but then you Obambi supporters have the luxury to don't you.
I think you will find Clinton worked very hard to get where she is. If you bothered to get informed, but then that's too much hard work isn't it.
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Does anyone realize the Republican Party is absolutely astonished and in admiration at Hillary's "new" persona?? She may very well be a lot "tougher" than McCain and they want to make her one of their own! (well, she actually already was... come on, president of the young republicans in college and then sat on the board of walmart for years? give me a break).
and please don't tell me you're surprised (only very scared) when you see this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/04/clinton-camp-considering_n_100051.html
People of the world, meet the new face of Evil... Miss Hillary Rodham Clinton.
W Bush seems suddenly sympathetic.
And one more thing, and perhaps this is just me: the only photos of Hillary that have circulated in the press ever since this debate caught more heat are, to be truthful, very very VERY scary looking... please tell me i'm not alone... it's like the longer she goes, the longer she looks like she's about to explode... perhaps literally...
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If Mrs Clinton is "too similar" to President Bush, consider that last August Mr Obama threatened to use force against al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan regardless of whether that nation gave its approval. Whether conventional or nuclear weapons would be used, that appears remarkably similar to the invasion of Iraq. Mrs Clinton was making the point that should (what many consider to be) America’s closest ally be attacked by Iran, then she would act - rather as Britain declared war on Germany when Poland was invaded. Had nuclear weapons been available it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they would have been used. Mrs Clinton would have the support of vast numbers since many feel, like a former neighbour of mine, that "we have a bigger bomb" and thus it is justified.
The word 'elite' has gone beyond its dictionary definition/s to mean that because of a supposed superiority, very often financial, such people have little or no knowledge - or recollection - of how the average American lives. Recall Leona Helmsley’s remark that paying taxes is "only for the little people." Just as water rationing does not affect the wealthy because they can afford to pay the penalties, the price of fuel is immaterial to those who have high five or even six figure incomes. I don't see that giving the the 'average Joe' a temporary break is any worse than tax breaks for the rich. If it is "pandering" then it must be that the Republicans pander to the wealthy, creating tax breaks and using 'trickle down' theory to justify it.
It is unfortunate that Justin buys into the notion that somehow the opinions of those who went to a university are more consequential than someone "you might find in your local gas station." If it truly was so then, just as women and African-Americans were once not permitted to vote, only the university-educated, “those who know best” would be permitted to do so. The nonsense is that clever - and wealthier - people have opinions that are to be valued above others.
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Anti-intellectualism is well and truly alive in America, and unfortunately this attitude is reinforced by Hollywood as well.
Smart, intelligent, well-educated people are almost always portrayed as geeks, socially inept, or they always seem to have a white coat on. As such, it's never cool to be intelligent, educated and erudite.
This sort of anti-intellectualism unfortunately spills over to the presidential race as well. It would seem that you can't get elected unless you lower yourself to the lowest common denominator, rather than calling on people to aim higher.
It is highly unlikely that America will ever have another James Monroe, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt or a Franklin Roosevelt.
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Dear bobgodwin
Don't want to be elitist about this, but all those guys wearing towels and things on their heads and praying five times a day aren't all Arabs, in fact the ones from Iran (which used to be called Persia and had an empire and civilisation even before the Greeks did) are not Arab at all, but Persian, and are definitely not part of the Arab League, which, as a league, is very worried indeed about Iran, even more than the USA is, since after all they are so much closer. Indeed, if it is true that Syria was developing nuclear weapons then it was probably with as much of an eye to the east as it was to its nearer neighbour just slightly to the west.
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The Narrative on "White Voters" Is Fiction
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/03/opinion/03blow.html
"Since January, the Clintons have pummeled Barack Obama with racially tinged comments and questions about his character...
The question is this: Have white Democrats soured on Obama? Apparently not. Although his unfavorable rating from the group is up five percentage points since last summer in polls conducted by The New York Times and CBS News, his favorable rating is up just as much.
On the other hand, black Democrats' opinion of Hillary Clinton has deteriorated substantially (her favorable rating among them is down 36 percentage points over the same period)."
Going to be reporting these facts rather than what the puditocracy/networks say Justin?
I also see CBS polls has Obama 51%, McCain 40%
News???
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Maybe some 'clever people' should get together and fix the BBC website; what's with that 'hexidecimal value 0x3C...line 1, position 389.', etc. on the previous blog entries comments section. Is this another hoax or is somebodys really seriously trying to create a "weird paralell universe" of a kind? Yo! any clever Harvards or Princetonionians out there, know whadup? Anyhow, we can all save our tears for the poor little rich kids at the prestige institutions. They're not so much elite as elitist. In other words, they value their own opinions over others. These sorts of institutions are elitist for a reason, they're places where small numbers of rich people - or those who can be of service to them - get together to think about how to keep it that way. To be fair, they're not all bad people; they just share the same attitude expressed, that their interests and views are to be valued above - way above - that of the proles. This is in no way peculiar to America, it exists in virtually every society. Class divisions and class frictions or worse. One of the great lies about America is that it's a classless society. But except for the UK, America has most extreme class polarization in the overdeveloped countries. It's been a staple of Republcan rhetoric recently to try and turn around the Dem's historical advantage with the gas station crowd by painting "liberal" (snicker) Democrats as "elite" and themselves as champions of the 'average Joe'. Hence the kind of nonsense in the last two elections about which candidate would you rather have a beer with? This appeals to the class sensibilities of those "gritty working folk" without even mentioning the word class let alone doing anything about it. Remember the Dukakis vs. George-the-father "debates"? Bush, Sr. admonished Duke, at the same time, both for mentioning the word 'class', and for having attended Harvard. Republicans not only "accept" the elite, they are the elite. As is the Democrats hierarchy. That's why they created the Duopoly Party in the first place. The anti-elite dissembling is strictly for public consumption. There's nothing the least bit ironic about it, it follows a consistent pattern of the rule of elites that goes back to James Madison and will continue unabated with any of the three remaining Duopoly candidates. And that is indeed "very depressing".
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Paulcanning:
Obambi isn't playing the race card then? It is statically impossible that 90% of blacks vote for him because of his views. It only makes sense if they vote for him because he is black! I guess you have the point of view that racism is purely a white issue.
If 90% of whites were voting for Hillary it would be all over the news on how racist they were! Seems we have a bit of hypocrisy here then! As for the obamaganda channel of MSNBC, does the word balanced coverage mean anything to you?
If you go to RCP you will find
Clinton is 5.8% up in IN
Obambi is 7% up in NC
Obambi is 1.5% up in Dem
Clinton is 3.2% up on McCain
Obambi is tied.
These are the facts
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chewbaccadefense,
You misquote Clinton as saying:
"Mrs Clinton was making the point that should (what many consider to be) America?s closest ally be attacked by Iran, then she would act".
She didn't say 'act', she said 'obliterate'. The connotations of which are profound. It means not just wiping out Iran's leadership, but actually wiping out the country of Iran. This is as irresponsible a statement as any leader could make. To 'act' is to make a considered judgment, to 'obliterate' is wreckless.
And, please, lets not start blaming Obama for not being in the Senate to prove his opposition to the war. Instead, lets start holding Clinton to account who actually never read the NIE at the time, and has continued on a similar neo-con path by voting for the Kyl-Lieberman Bill, and a vote to criminalize flag-burning.
This is a well established pattern for her; keep your eyes on the prize and sacrifice reasoned debate, progressive values and and now any deference to the people who actually know a thing or about the economy: economists.
I have no doubt that Clinton worked very hard to get where she is, but that isn't the issue. Indeed, I have never witnessed anyone so deteremined to realize personal ambition that they would compromise their values as much as she has.
Unlike many Obama supporters I am working-class but nevertheless support him for exactly the same reasons they do, namely the intelligence and pragmatism he has demonstrated when parsing major issues rather than any lofty ideals.
Instead of misrepresenting the man as if he wrote the lyrics to 'Imagine', I urge you to read a few of his policy proposals and I assure you that you'll find he is far from out of his depth.
This gas-tax debate is a great example of the difference between the two candidates. Where Obama is honest enough to confront voters with the truth, Clinton is aware of the truth and insults my intelligence by dumbing down national debate and offering me some 'relief'. She is definitely consistent in that she has always pursued personal ambition at the expense of the greater good.
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I can understand why it is tempting for a presidencial candidate to appear as "an average American", as if to give the persona that they are just like your average Joe, but that doesn't mean they need give intalectuals a bad name either!! Heck!!! If it weren't for those "elietests", I'm willing to bet you many of those "Average Joe" candidates wouldn't even be alive to court those "average Americans"!!!! Never bite the hand that feeds you!! And it certainly doesn't mean that when president needs to make tough crucial decisions, that the opinions of the general public-though there are many more of them-are even the slightest bit more important than the opinions of the people who went to school and studiedd their whole lives to understand the thing that one may come to them for advice on!!! Come on! I am so surprised that that white house advisor acted like that twoards Harvard and Prinston attendees!!! Just out of curiosity, did that advisor attend college, I wonder? I doubt very much that they were a high school drop out!! It was extremely rude, and not to mention incredibly untrue!! Yes a candidate/president should feel the pain of the average person, but being educated should be looked upon with admoration, not disgust!! Having an education doesn't make someone more out of touch with voters's wants/needs than not having one!!! For candidates, let alone people to imply so is just...well...there are no words!!!
I wonder, though, would slapping such a title on a prime ministerial candidate hav an affect on voters's opinions of that candidate in the UK? Would a prime minister's aid(s) look down on intilectuals, and effectively take the advice of your average person on the street over, say, how to solve a fuel crisis, before takeing the advice of an Oxford/Camebridge educated economist?
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In political circles, the word 'elite' doesn't have a definition, it's a code. Whenever you hear the word elite, just replace it with the word 'smart' or the word 'educated.' It's a sad fact that cultural conservatives, mostly Republican but occasionally Democrat, have carefully crafted code and everyone knows exactly what it means. It does NOT mean people who feel superior to you, but people YOU feel INFERIOR to! (Yes, that is an important distinction. The onus is on YOU not THEM.) So make yourself feel better by not voting for them, and vote for one of your own... someone stupid.
This is how we got Bush to begin with and I'm sickened that Hillary has taken up this tack.
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Oddlyamerican:
I think you will find it is you who are misquoting. Hillary was asked, since I watched the interview. What she would do if Iran attack Israel with a NUCLEAR bomb! Note here NUCLEAR!!!! I don't also believe I used the term act. Nevertheless even if I did only a fool would argue the different between act and obliterate. What do you think would happen when the US responses with nuclear weapons. I think using obliterate is more accurate than ACT. Act or obliterate it really is a moot point when nuclear weapons are involved.
Whilst we are on this subject was it not Obama that said he would invaded pakistan? But you seem to have forgotten that?
As for debate. Obama is the coward running away. I would want a president who would fight for me. Anyone who votes for Obambi is a fool. No record, no backbone, no chance.
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I think David_Cunard post (17) shows Obambi's hypocrisy all to well! But then Obambi is more like a priest than a politician with people that vote for him more followers than voters. Much like a cult!
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Oddlyamerican:
When will you and all the other Obambi followers (note the word follower not voter) wake up and realize he is just another politician. He's not different, he's the same. The problem is once to see he is naked like the emperors new clothes it will be too late.
OA answer me this, what has he done and who is he?
Nothing and you don't know who he really is!
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As usual Mr. Webb, you have American culture wrong. Elitism is not about what level of education you've completed or what tax bracket you belong to.
Elitism is about looking down on the average American. That's what we all have a problem with. There is no anti-intellectual trend, it's an anti-snobbery trend. Maybe the Brits don't understand the difference.
When an American stepped on the moon, nobody complained about 'that elitist' Neil Armstrong. Nobody complained about 'that elitist' Lance Armstrong. Nobody complains when one of our own achieves great success (well, Democrats might want to punish him with taxes). We applaud every Nobel Prize in science, We applaud every technological advance. We applaud when the intellectuals among us achieve something the rest of us could not.
We do not applaud when someone begins to believe he is above the rest of us. Whatever success you achieve does not afford you the right to look down on others. That's elitism. That's snobbery. That's what Barack Obama showed when he talked about the "little people" in his speech at the Getty mansion.
How long have you been here now? You obviously don't know us very well yet.
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Iranian Blues
Oh, where are you coming from, soldier, gaunt soldier,
With weapons beyond any reach of my mind,
With weapons so deadly the world must grow older
And die in its tracks, if it does not turn kind?
Stand out of my way and be silent before me!
For none shall come after me, foeman or friend,
Since the seed of your seed called me out to employ me,
And that was the longest, and that was the end.
(Excerpt, Song for Three Soldiers, S V Benet, 1940, copyright expired)
When will the world's leaders, would-be leaders, and self-appointed leaders realise that war is not waged on regimes or dictators - it's waged on people - people like you, people like me?
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chewbaccadefense:
You still have yet to read his proposals like I suggested.
However, since you asked, what has he achieved?
Well, to answer chronologically:
i) Community organizer - note: working with (shock horror), working class people.
ii) In the Illinois State Senate he helped make health-care available to thousands more children.
iii) In Congress he has co-sponsored bills for greater government transparency and to restrict nuclear proliferation.
All consistent with his values, and, yes admittedly thinner next to Chris Dodd and certainly, Bill Richardson, but since they have left the race lets compare him with his opponent.
I've already mentioned in a previous post Clinton's votes for Iraq, designating Iran's revolutionary guard as terrorists and criminalizing flag-burning. Prior to that she was First Lady where her 'tough' 'scrappy' leadership style stuntied the progress of universal healthcare for a generation. Prior to that she served on the board of Wal-Mart. (How good have they been for the working class?). Prior to that, well, what is there? Goldwater? Let me know.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is disingenuous to suggest that Obama is too inexperienced to become Presidential when his opponent's record is sboth parse and largely regrettable. In addition he also has more legislative experience.
I don't expect him to be the new messiah or that if we hope for something that something will just happen. No, what I expect from him, and a President, is more of the same, intelligent, reasoned leadership that has marked his career thus far.
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This topic so clearly demonstrates the difference between the European mind and the American mind in so many ways.
Kecsmar said Europe is an elitist society. And I think he is right. America is an anti-elitist society and for very good reasons. Ingrained in American culture is the heritage of the pioneer who lived by his wits facing and solving the practical day to day problems of survival in a dangerous and hostile wilderness, not with theoretical mumbo jumbo about class warfare or all kinds of isms Europeans live by and die by but by common sense, cleverness, and the ability to think. This doesn't come from a university of lectures, passing exams, term papers, and PHDs, it comes from the inner strength of ordinary people. They either have it or they don't. Americans are not overly impressed or intimidated by credentials the way Europeans are. It is another example of American rejection of arbitrary authority. Yes we have the best schools in the world but it is a mistake to think that just because someone got a degree from one that they actually know anything. It takes years of practical experience in the real world to put that knowledge into perspective if it will ever actually be put to use. We call that "paying your dues." The stereotype is the kid who goes to business school, gets an MBA, takes over his father's business that took a lifetime of hard work to build up and runs it into the ground in six months because he doesn't know the first thing about business, his degree being worthless and because he didn't pay his dues. We are bombarded by elitist "experts" who tell us don't eat this, don't drink that, because it will kill you. If you listened to all of them you'd go nuts. People do NOT get respect in America unless they earn it by proving their worth in the real world. Those who don't earn it but demand respect because of a certificate from a school or because they were appointed to a high place by someone they knew invariably get despised, spit at behind their backs. We do not like elitists in the US. Often as not they prove utterly incompetent. Two economists won the Nobel Prize in economics a few years ago, opened up a hedge fund for billionaires only, and lost every penny invested with them.
Evidently Sir Arthur Sullivan didn't think much of them either. Here are his lyrics to the song from HMS Pinafore "When I Was a Lad" about someone who became an elitist;
When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an Attorney's firm.
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor,
And I polished up the handle of the big front door.
I polished up that handle so carefullee
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — He polished up that handle so carefullee
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk.
I served the writs with a smile so bland,
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand —
I copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — He copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became;
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the pass examination at the Institute,
And that pass examination did so well for me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — And that pass examination did so well for he,
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership.
And that junior partnership, I ween,
Was the only ship that I ever had seen.
But that kind of ship so suited me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — But that kind of ship so suited he,
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament.
I always voted at my party's call,
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — He thought so little, they rewarded he
By making him the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Now landsmen all, whoever you may be,
If you want to rise to the top of the tree,
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool,
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule —
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!
CHORUS. — Stick close close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!
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It was Gilbert who Wrote the words, Sullivan only wrote the music.
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if hilary or obama was more like president bush it would be a blessing for them.
Goverment officials are the best, the most trained, the greatest men we can milk out of a nation. they are elite.
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"In other words, that they had opinions to be valued above those you might find in your local gas station."
No, they don't though. Simply going to university for 4-6 years does not mean your word or opinion is automatically better than anyone elses. I am about to graduate from georgia tech with a BS in chemical engineering but I will be damned if I think my opinion is all of a sudden better than everyone around me.
We are right to hate the kind of elitist crap you just spewed. Exactly where does your justification for this nonsense come anyway? This is just like Obama's 'bitter scandal'. He essentially said: "These people disagree with me, and therefore something must be wrong with them." That assertion is completely off base and preposterous. Please, keep that crap on your side of the ocean - don't you have enough to worry about with gangs of Muslims terrorizing your children anyway?
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sargonnas
BBC thinks itself an elite. They just don't get it. Perhaps in time when they're taken down a peg or two they might get an inkling. So far in recent years since they've been on the internet, they've convinced me that they do not understand the world, certainly not our part of it. Their series "America, Age of Empire" is a classic. So off the mark it is a joke. You could pick example after example in it. One of my favorites is they go to Cuba because that is where the Spanish American War started, supposedly America's beginning of its rise to empire. Then they ask this Cuban guy who works for the government what he thinks of American foreign policy. What a joke. Even if he knew anything and had an opinion worth hearing, if he didn't agree with the government he'd be fired, might even wind up in jail. Just a way to take a cheap shot at the US and attribute it to someone else, one of BBC's many propaganda tactics.
Last year their guy in Gaza, Alan Johnston disappeared. Supposedly he was kidnapped by a "gang of terrorists." First time they ever used that word without attributing it to someone else. The guy was supposedly kidnapped. His own father said he's a friend to the Palestinian People. Immediately a red flag goes up. Wait a minute, how can a guy report objectively about his friend? Some friends. That was in March 2007. Early in July, he suddenly showed up in public again supposedly released by his captors. Now during his disappearance 15 Royal Marines were scared to death just a few days after being kidnapped (captured off their ship) by the Iranian government in full view of the world. Everyone knew who was holding them. But they were terrified. Here this reporter is on TV around a day after his release and he looks and sounds just fine except he his tired. Next day back with his family in Scotland he seems even better. A year later on "From Our Own Correspondent" you'd never know he was kidnapped. And all you had to do was insinuate that the whole thing was a hoax to get attention for his Palestinian friends and the BBC would never publish your opinion that it was just a hoax. Why? If for no other reason than that you challenged the BBC. You know who the BBC is don't you? They are the people who know everything and are always right. It was all as transparent as Saran Wrap.
Mr. Webb, welcome to America where there are no free passes. Not even for BBC.
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Oddlyamerican:
Firstly how do you know I haven't read his proposals? May be I have, but because if I had right, I'd have had an epiphany and be an Obambi supporter. I think most of my posts if not all are pretty sound factually. As I remember his health care plan is/was a rip off of Clinton's.
As for his so called achievements is that all. I think you will find Clinton has done likewise in spades. As for nuclear non-proliferation, wow he really stuck his neck out there. No-one agree with that but he convinced us all. But iran obviously. Then after Iran drops a nuclear bomb on Isreal what will Obambi do sit down and have a friendly little chat?
Obambi "Iran, I have a bit of an issue, an issue (moves his hands backward and forward). That bomb you dropped on Israel, well that wasn't nice was it. You've kind of upset them"
Hey but if Pakistan steps out of line, no talking there then in go the troops. Interesting, invading Iraq wrong invading Pakistan OK????? Not responding to a nuclear strike on Israel OK??? He's experienced because?
Come on you're insulting my intelligence. He's a same old same old politician just admit it.
How can you sit in a church for 20 years, 20 years and not hear the trash his mentor wright was saying. Does he take me for an idiot? It doesn't make any sense, now think about it now, it just makes no sense. 20 years hears not a word, really? I think he's lying. Or he just went there to worm his way into that area.
Don't get me on to his on the fence voting, present (I'm just there). Which means 'I just want to hold this bill up but I'm to gutless to vote no. It just may go away. This way he can say there was a typo etc....I wanted to vote yes/no but you didn't submit it properly etc....' Really do you believe this trash! In short you just don't like Clinton, that's it isn't it. Obambi could have mentors would are racist and promote tension and you'd still vote for him. Oh but he does oh and guess what you'll still vote for him. He's clueless and a coward, if he's so good why is he scare to debate Clinton. We all know why because he can't debate he's clueless!!!!!!
If you must know why I'm so anti Obambi it's because I listen and understand what he really means. His inexperience is cavernous. He's Dems version of Bush all smile and no brains. You'll see. I'll be on here in 2 years saying should have voted for Clinton. Remember this a hiring decision not a popularity contest.
Just like I said when TB was replaced by GB. I knew GB wasn't up to it, as much charisma as a wet fish! Bet they'd welcome TB back with open arms now.
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NO MAII: You have MSNBC and Fox the pillars of balanced coverage......
Didn't we already have the glass houses chat?
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MAII: Interestingly most US students graduate to Pomp and circumstance march number 1. Which I'm sure you know, matched with the words Land of hope and Glory is the English national anthem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Hope_and_Glory
What does this have to do with Obambi, nothing absolutely nothing. Does that make sense no, Obambi makes no sense.
So why does Obambi have so many stars supporting him? Obvious really he's a film star you know from disney. Part of the club you see.
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Okay chebaccadefense,
We re not going to get anywhere. We obviously totally disagree. However, you are absolutely right about Gordon Brown. There'll no viable labor party in the UK for another generation because of him and the political careersists.
Lets just hope the best candidate wins.
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It's pretty obvious that Hillary is trying to appeal to working class americans by implying that Obama is in a class that is out of touch with the life of common people in America.
What she fails to realize is that we know she also fits that decription.
Who else but the elite could get away with all the crimes (The white water land swindle, Insider trading of Beef futures, and Vince Foster's murder, to name a few)
that she has yet to be prosecuted for?
Yes, Obama is Elite, but so is Hillary.
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chewbaccadefense
To us Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance is just a dignified song for an occasion that is at once solemn and celebratory, a milestone in life signifying a rite of passage based on achievement. It has no other meaning. It does not signify the British Empire. Most Americans are not aware of the connection.
I think the concept of eliteism is one worth further exploration. It is one of the seminal differences between the American mind and most others including the European mind. In the European mind, there is an order to life. Whether you are low born or high born, you learn your place in it early. Even if your parents don't teach it to you, society does. It is psychological baggage they carry from childhood and will never get rid of completely until the day they die. It may be much more subtle today than it was say 100 years ago but it is every bit as real. No matter how long they live in the US, no matter how much they learn about it, everything they see, the way their brains evaluate it is colored by it. Their children born here unburdened by such a notion are entirely different from them in ways they can't entirely appreciate and often find hard to accept. American society itself can never be fully demystified for them.
America's rise to "empire" as BBC called it didn't begin with with the Spanish American war, it began with the Declaration of Independence (failure to recognize that fact was the first fatal flaw in the series.) The Revolution was far more than a political one, it was a rejection of the entire philosophy of the way people relate to society and to each other. It was a rejection above all of elitism. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal." There are no high born or low born. There is no station in life. It's as hard for Americans to understand their mentality I think as it is for them to understand ours. This is why anti-Americanism in Europe started at the American Revolution, not with the invasion of Iraq. Americans were seen as a "mobocracy" a society of low commoners doomed to fail. Today America is wrongly highly regarded by them for what it is, not for what it did or how it did it. That it transformed itself from an empty dangerous wilderness strewn with a sprinkling of small towns, villages and farms to far eclipse every other civilization that ever existed in less than 200 years because of how it was conceived and structured does not penetrate their psyche, it does not cross their minds. This is why there is no doubt that the disparity will continue to grow, even BBC's Age of Empire recognized that inevitablity despite the fact that it doesn't understand why.
When someone is put up on a pedistal in Europe, the instinct for Europeans is to bow down and worship them. In America the instinct is to knock the pedistal out from under them and to have a hole ready to throw them in for having been put on the pedistal in the first place. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall." Welcome to America BBC. Welcome to Brobdingnag. Next time you are in the San Francisco Bay area, visit the Redwood Forest at Muir Woods. It will help put a little clarity in your perspective of life. The oldest tallest living things on earth were around when Christ lived. To them the entirety of human civilization is a flash in the pan. Kings and queens, emporers and empires come and go but they are eternal in human terms. I regard Europe as they would regard us.
Perhaps elitism is one reason Europeans like Obama and hate Bush. He's the most European of the candidates. Lets hope his psyche wasn't contaminated by having grown up in Indonesia where vestiges of elitism, the legacy of colonial empire were instilled in his mind. Even a small pedistal is too high for many of us.
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I've always maintained that Americans should be required to pass a simple civics test and world geography quiz before they are allowed to vote.
I am amazed at how many "gas-station voters" can't even find Washing DC on a map, let alone know where to find Iran or Iraq on a world map. But we let them vote on candidates they've chosen based on 30-second television commercials during prime-time sitcoms and reality shows!
Sadly, their right to vote supercedes their responsibilities as Americans to cast informed and educated votes.
But I'm preaching to the choir here, aren't I?
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I do find that this election has been more about personality, opinion and reaction to the bush years than serious analysis of who would do the best job.
Even apparently inteligent commentators are obsessed with simplist pro and anti war positions. I find it extraordinary that people want to see Hillary's suggestion that she would Nuke Iran AFTER Iran nuked Israael as Bushite pro-war - noone is talking pre-emptive attacks here - we all know that the US probably would respond that way anyway, whichever of the three was president....
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"I am amazed at how many "gas-station voters" can't even find Washing DC on a map, let alone know where to find Iran or Iraq on a world map. But we let them vote on candidates they've chosen based on 30-second television commercials during prime-time sitcoms and reality shows!"
These people should not be disenfranchised for being less knowledgeable. That is a pretty slippery slope and should be avoided. In addition, finding places on a map is fairly irrelevant - perhaps they are aware of whats going on in those areas and simply cannot locate them. The point is - they have a right to choose who they want to be making decisions for them as much as you and I.
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MarcusAurelius:
wjhere on earth did you get the (crass, decades-out-of-date and untrue) idea that there is a transeuropean tendency 'to bow down those put on a pedestal' ? even if that remark ever held true, it sure as hell hasn't at any point in my life. Having a lingering class system hang-over is one thing, going anywhere justifying a comment that fatuous, silly, sweeping and 100% at odds with reality,
is quite another. It was UK tabloides that invented the 'kbnock em down treatment of the rich n famous, f'rinstance
can I ssume you have never visited any European nation in your life? because yet again, you've showeed you really don't know what you are talking about
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As Americans we've always hated snobbery. (Sorry to say this, but at various times British-ness has also been associated with snobbery. Not so much nowadays.) I think it reached a peak during the Cold War, when many intellectuals were in favor of the peace movement and main-street America felt that such an attitude was dangerously naive. You see echoes of that attitude in Ronald Reagan -- for whom it was probably a sincere belief in ordinary wisdom -- and in George W Bush -- for whom it is probably an attempted escape from his past.
In the past few years, however, the "intellectuals" seem to be proven right on a regular basis (see also: Iraq, Weapons of Mass Destruction in). So the anti-intellectualism you see in politics is an attempt to grab a shrinking right-wing fringe that is, yes, "bitter" about the enormous economic dislocations of the past few decades.
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I have yet to see Hillary or McCain discuss what is actually necessary to have a gas tax holiday--where is the bill with her name on it before Congress?, where it would get messed with and many people would have their hands out, it would need to be passed by both houses and then W would have to sign it - all in the future, hey the actual election is in November, then she can blame Congress for not getting it done (like W) when she is in Congress. Then there are all the administrative costs to the government, write rules, ask for comment, divert staff to administer, etc. etc. etc. It is one of the stupidest ideas ever and anyone who thinks this will make a difference in their lives is really stupid as well. I am heartily offended at the campaigns assumption of voter stupidity on this issue and the media keeps hyping it as being "for the little guy" baloney.
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I'm looking forward to a President Clinton or McCain White House Cabinet full of numpties, wearing denim overalls and spitting straw over those "goddam clever folks"...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/06/clinton-camp-expands-stra_n_100389.html
This election gets more hilarious/sad/desperate depending on the mood.
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As a completely off-topic aside (which oughtn't get posted for exactly that reason) - Gordon Brown declared upon his Prime Ministerial succession that he would create a Government of all talents.
Given the slapstick nature of his tenure, and Vince Cable's remarks about Mr Bean, wouldn't it be a novel idea to create a cabinet of all Comedy talents? After all, we've got Boris Johnson in London, why not Bill Bailey - Home Secretary, Harry Enfield - Chancellor etc. ?
I'm warming to this anti-elitists thing...
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The problem isn't as much anti-elitism but annoyance at the idea that the specific university a person attended has anything whatsoever to do with that person's fitness for any job. Too many people throw around Harvard, Yale, and Princeton credentials as if somehow coming from a wealthy, privileged, and well-connected family (which is the only thing attendance at Ivy League universities really connotes) makes an individual personally superior.
It's got to the point that I'm loath to hire anyone with a private university degree, no matter what. Students from public universities do just a good of a job, and they don't consistently act like superior jerks to the secretaries (or to anyone else for that matter).
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what rankles me about clinton's comment about economists is that it suggests anyone in this (apparently homogenous) group of experts is ideologically compromised by virtue of the fact they're educated, and so aren't credible on an issue effecting working people. she seems to be suggesting that because these experts aren't blue collar folk, their expertise is of no value to blue collar folk. is she planning to get bob the machinist in to develop her economic policy? because we all know how poor people are experts on how to manage enourmous quantities of money.
it's like saying the kitchen hand cooks better food than the head chef because he's hungrier.
i hope that whoever wins the US election uses the highest standard of non-partisan advice and research available to them in making their decisions.
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Streathamite in Milano
Where did I get the idea that Europeans bow down to those on a pedistal? Maybe from watching "The Queen." Or how about that jug eared issue of hers who if he hadn't been born to be who he is, would be kicked around in the gutter by the media as a fool because having had every conceiveable advantage screwed up his life royally. Well I'm certainly not saying Brits put their elected politicians on a pedistal. After all, it's hardly surprising when the only nationally elected body chosen from all the people is considered the lower house that they are regarded with disdain, even contempt. Each time I watch PMQT, I am reminded just to what extent people can abase themselves in public. Hard to put them on a pedistal after that.
It's tough for a lot of people to see their idols, their personal gods dethroned. Perhaps that is why Europeans are so angry at America. They have been made painfully aware of the fact that Americans are just ordinary people who act in their own self interest just like everyone else. Funny how they try to preserve their illusion of it by separating the American government from the American people when there is no place else on earth where the government is more representative of the people themselves.
hawkinsm21
we used to have literacy tests in some states in the South which required that people just prove they could read before they were allowed to vote. It was used to keep uneducated blacks from voting. If there was any doubt that it was unconstitutional, the Voting Rights Act of 1964 put the last nail in the coffin of that elitist notion. People get the government they deserve. Whether the Bush Presidency was a failure or not will not be known until it is seen from the perspective of history. Time has a way of changing the way we view events. My hunch is that it will be far kinder to this administration than the contemporary media. The so called failures have been largely invented. There wasn't another successful attack by foreign terrorists on the US after 9-11 (there was the anthrax attack shortly after however.) The war in Iraq was actually relatively cheap as wars go, only 4000 soldiers killed in 5 years and the cost between 1 and 2 percent of GDP. If the economy is in temporary trouble, it is attribitutable to the sub prime mortgage fiasco, not the war. And best of all, America's foreign policy revealed who America's real friends aren't. How nice to be able to see who our enemies are so clearly. The rose colored glasses have been taken off.
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its not the intellects that the americans fear or despise , its the educated fools. the types that sit in a classroom all their lives and never go in the real world, who makes all their decisions on theories instead of facts.
The straight A students who cannot operate functionally out of a classroom and as a result instead of working in the industry they claim, they go back into other educational/research institutions to make up more theories, and to educate others on theories that they havnt taken the time to prove.
The ones who speak confidently about what the public will and should do, but never goes out to meet the public.
The ones who cannot operate in a competitive environment, which the real world is.
Nobody wants someone like that speaking on their behalf.UNLESS ur of course one of them.
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News Alert!
The UK elitists are getting out of control!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7387002.stm
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Streathamite in Milano
OK, let's see you say something really bad about the Queen. If you can't bring yourself to say that, how about Prince whatshisname? Well then, how about The Spicegirls? The BBC? The UN? The whole notion of aristocrats and royalty? The London Times? London Bridge? Has it fallen down yet? Nick Robinson? What do you mean you don't know who Nick Robinson is?
ronaine
No the British elitists are getting in control. Sooner or later they will sell the UK down the tubes to the EU and whatever vestige of democracy, however nascent, fragile, or difficult to find will be snuffed out for good.
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Ah, MarcusAurelius - I love your unrelenting Brit bashing. Fabulous! And as determined as a Clinton...
And surely you do see the hilarity of a pot-shotting barrister!
The Brits were sold down the tubes long ago... :)
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"its not the intellects that the americans fear or despise , its the educated fools. the types that sit in a classroom all their lives and never go in the real world, who makes all their decisions on theories instead of facts." (54)
We had a version of this argument in the UK a while ago. It was along the lines of politicians don't know anything about the real world, so let's give more decision making power, and political promotion, to those with a solid business experience. People who know how to run things "efficiently".
I'm not an immovable 'lefty', but it's doubtful, for example, how much good a lot of our privatisation has been. Depressed wages, mass redundancies (streamlining!), piecemeal sell-offs etc. etc.
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