Attacking Mrs Obama
So what's going to happen over the next twenty-four hours? This is as good a summary as any I have seen.
Worth noting as well that the chatter on the right-wing blogs here is dominated by this allegation that Michelle Obama said something she might now regret and there is a tape etc etc etc.
Assuming it turns out to be false (there must be people who remember one way or the other irrespective of the tape issue) it will rebound horribly on those who hope it is true - it looks desperate beyond belief.
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Madam Clinton will stop at nothing. She has alienated her own party. The Democrats must realize by now, they owe her nothing, and they don't owe Bill either.
Sad thing is Ted Kennedy. He puts the fear of G_d into the party. That may not be viable anymore. I suspect that when he dies, the Kennedy influence goes with him.
Clinton will surely cut her ties with the Democratic Party if she continues to push for the Florida and Michigan primaries to be counted, against the rules.
Well, in Hillary's opinion it's 'all for one and one for one"... Hillary.
May she crawl back into the woodwork and take Bill with her. It is, truly, time for a change!
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If there is such a tape, it will probably sink Obama's candidacy no matter when it comes out, whether he acknowledges it in advance or not.
It may be that Pastor Wright has already sealed Obama's fate without this, but it's impossible to be sure this early.
That's not wishful thinking; I'm supporting Obama.
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She is in the public making political statements, she is fair game. If she can't stand the heat she needs to go back to the kitchen.
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What's the going price for the tape?
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I am a patriot
, and I have always been a patriot, but I know what Michelle meant, and I have to say I agree with her.
The behaviour of my country in the past few decades has not been such that any of our long-dead founding fathers would have viewed with anything but horror and shame. Sure, there have been good things - the peace corps, the civil rights improvements (still far from complete), some advances in environmental awareness, etc. but there have been terrible and shameful things - suppression of Latin American peoples' movements, support of vicious tyrants and dictators, corporate colonialism, sponsorship of wars (Iraq Vs Iran), - the list is very long and not very edifying.
And then came 911, and how did America respond?
One man responded rather well:
Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you (and all of us)
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Whether there is a tape or not shouldn't be the issue. Since disloyalty should not be confused with dissension.
So, it would be ok for the bible belt to vote for someone who "believes", yet if MO states what she "believes", it is not so acceptable. Regardless of the words chosen, correct or otherwise.
I don't think it is either MO or Obama that would loose out, but the American public. Another example of those peddling "fear" in favour of freedom of speech and thought...
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The tape speaks for itself. It is nothing new. It's been around for awhile. Why would the Republicans not make use of it? Why shouldn't they. Voters should contemplate that if Obama is elected, she will be living in the White House for four years. Between her and Wright, you have to wonder what other kind of people Obama surrounds himself with.
As for freedom, there is an awful lot of it here. There are people running loose you would think would never be allowed to walk the streets. Thank goodness some of them have moved to other countries. At least they stay there most of the time. Brains fried on LSD and other mind killing drugs they took especially in the 60s we let them spout off. Nobody pays attention to them. Ultraliberalism left wing self hatred, hatred of country and the there but for the grace of god go I syndrome in the US is usually the result of mental disorder induced by street drugs. In Europe it is the result of a genetic defect. I think it started with Robin the Hood. Do you suppose he was related to Karl Marx?
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#1 Joann53 writes "Madam Clinton will stop at nothing." With what justification do you make such a scurrilous suggestion? There are no depths to which Hillary-haters not will sink in order to make Mr Obama appear free of any imperfection. Such comments do not enhance his campaign; if anyone should crawl back into the woodwork it the writers of such desperate rantings.
With regard to what people in the public eye say, I don't think there can be any assumptions - the reports about Mrs Obama are attributed to to those within the Republican Party, which unless I am mistaken, is not the party of which Mrs Clinton is a member.
Incidentally, the Wonkette link is out of service at the moment, but the home page says that Oregon is only famous for a computer game - it's also famous for Portland, where Monica Lewinsky obtained her degree. Who would have thought that psychology covered so much!
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Here we go again with the tapes...as much as I like Obama, Michelle is making herself available as a target by being on the spotlight talking about what she thinks and what she feels. There's nothing wrong with expressing oneself, it's just that if you're doing it, you should make yourself available for criticism and be prepared to defend yourself and take charge for what you say or do, it's the least we can ask for, when it comes to being a public servant, which eventually she'd (sort of) be. To see the opposite attitude towards the limelight, we can look at Mrs. McCain, we don't really know what she thinks, because she doesn't say it, therefore there's nothing to criticize her about. Also we can look at Chelsea...she does the rally but she's not taking her own stand, she's just saying what mommy wants her to say, thus, making it impossible to criticize her either.
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Job Opportunity: Apply here
;-)
ed
trip trap, trip trap,
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Appeasement?
;-)
ed
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Careless words can come back to haunt McCain too:
Hmmmmmm
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Well I'm embaressed to be an American. I couldn't watch the whole tape, it was so embaressing to see those braggarts.
And I am not alone. There are Americans who are upset by what they see America doing under the Bush administration. This nation has been dismantling the Geneva Convention and people in the US have not spoken out. There has been a war of choice for profit.
The people in the US were given a great gift and they are frittering it away in debt and lifestyle choices...
But I'd rather be wrong than right on this... In any case not every American is proud to be American and if you say this in public you will get some negative reactions....so those of us who feel uncomfortable with the current values in America...generally keep it quiet.
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#10 ed
I've thought there were people doing that...but I thought they were paid. I think there are definite groups though that are sent out to take over a site on the web.
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Mrs Obama is and has been out campaigning for her husband. Therefore she is fair game for reporters to do a little digging like they (should) do on anyone else in a similar position.
Must say Obama is showing himself to be rather thin skinned about this and even on taking lots of questions himself.
How will he handle the hard case leaders of not so friendly countries ?
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In politics, no accusation is false - veracity, as a substantive issue, being left to campaign historians to sort out. In politics the key question is always deniability. How deniable is the accusation? Let's consider that.
Jeremiah Wright has already cut deeply into Obama's deniability quotient (DQ). Michelle's previous comments qualifying her national pride further erodes the DQ metric. How much more can Obama take before he simply runs out of deniability?
Racism in the U.S. is about fear - the fear of "reckoning" with a slave history. There's a lot of material stratified below that surface and Obama's political opponents know it. Arguably, Michelle's American experience is more authentically "black" than Barack's, so she is a natural target for leveraging it. Michelle will become "the issue" soon; count on it.
Did she have something to say about "whitey"? Maybe - in fact, probably. As with most African Americans, the "w" word is part and parcel of the narrative and no less a shorthand for the country's structural racism than the "n" word is for white Americans. It's part of the reality that Obama's campaign, in my opion, is valiantly attempting to overcome.
These are simply realities. The real question - because it is inevitable in this political season and its answer long overdue in this country - is are we mature enough as a nation to address it? I can only hope - which is the tagline for Barack's presidential bid, right? I like the guy (I'm white) and I'm voting for him.
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I'm listening to Obama in Des Moines Iowa right now..and he is inspirational.
Imo he will be the next president.
"Change is coming to America"Obama
"We are ready to believe again"Obama
That speech would fit in with a wife who was disillusioned with America...and who is now proud of her husband..and proud
Imo the disaffection of some in America is underestimated....because the nationalists are so vocal.
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This talk about 'whitey' reminds me of this classic SNL skit.
Are spouses fair game? They shouldn't be, and that goes for all candidates, even Clinton. Candidates should be judged based on their policy proposals, their past voting records, and to a much lesser extent, their character. What their spouses have said on the campaign trail barely matters, and what they said years ago doesn't matter at all. And honestly, do you really believe that Michelle Obama hates her country? Why did she stay there her entire life then? Why marry and stay with someone with political aspirations, let alone someone who's trying to run for President?
It's as dishonest to call her a self-hating American as it is to say 'Bill Clinton is pandering to racists' or 'Cindy McCain a drug addict'.
David: Me and my family loved Oregon Trail. Unfortunately, most of them died trying to ford the river.
klaxon: Deniability Quotient, eh? What were the units you measure that in? Ah yes, that's right.: The Gonzalez. And if I remember correctly, 100 Gonzalez's is equal to one Reagan
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"You spoke of an America where working families don't have to file for bankruptcy just because a child gets sick; where they don't lose their home because some predatory lender tricks them out of it; where they don't have to sit on the sidelines of the global economy because they couldn't afford the cost of a college education. You spoke of an America where our parents and grandparents don't spend their retirement in poverty because some CEO dumped their pension - an America where we don't just value wealth, but the work and the workers who create it."
"You spoke of an America where we don't send our sons and daughters on tour after tour of duty to a war that has cost us thousands of lives and billions of dollars but has not made us safer. You spoke of an America where we match the might of our military with the strength of our diplomacy and the power of our ideals - a nation that is still the beacon of all that is good and all that is possible for humankind."
Barack Obama
wow..(but notice the groups he talks about and those are the people who are disillusioned with America.)
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I'm not seeing much attacks on the candidates' spouses in the media here in the United States. Justin is making too much of an issue out of something that no-one else is paying any attention to, perhaps he's trying to distract us from the issues that really matter, like the democratic primaries drawing to a close.
Oregon has yet to be counted, but the way. Oregonian democrats are very excited about Obama and I predict that he will win by about as much as there, Hillary won in Kentucky.
While Ted may be the 'patriarch' of the Kennedy clan, their influence won't dissapear with him, especially when you look at how much power is held by Joe Kennedy's grand-children.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Ted's nephew in the House running for his seat in the senate soon.
People make too much of an issue of race; race relations, or the lack thereof, are not caused by the color of one's skin, but by the CULTURE one is raised in.
To blame cultural problems on race is like saying 'spoons make me fat'.
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# 17 bethpa reports that Mr Obama said "Change is coming to America". Yes, but what kind of change - that is the question! Is it change that Americans will like or will it be change that, should he ever win (the nomination and thence the election) will vapourise, much as New Labour's has in Britain? Consider that a decade ago (well, 1997) that party, under the leadership of Tony Blair, was swept into power, not once or twice, but thrice. Look at Labour and its leader now - the lowest approval ratings of all time. The vacuous promises of "change" are just as likely to evaporate as they have in Great Britain. If there were some specifics I could understand the attraction, but thus far it all seems rather empty. I am reminded of Billy Graham's Crusades, two of which I attended in London. The first was thrilling in its promise of life and forgiveness in the hereafter, the presentation, the music and the choir all enormously uplifting before Dr Graham spoke, followed by a trickle of converts which became a torrent, all to the softly sung rendering of 'Just as I am" from the choir. The second time however was exactly the same as the first and my eyes were opened to the reality of mass hysteria. It was all a calculated and theatrical performance. While their politics are vastly different, I see parallels with National Socialist Germany, in which enormous crowds were dazzled by the words of a leader. In that case, specific promises were made, but Mr Obama does not, in my estimation, give us a clue as to what _he_ is promising. Other than "change". On the subject of vast crowds, it has not been widely reported but it would appear that the large numbers of young people who heard Mr Obama in Portland were there for the local rock band The Decemberists. I wonder how many were of voting age, and of of those, how many will actually cast a vote? As with so many things, bigger is not always better!
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Doesn't anybody see the hand of Karl Rove in this "whitey" business? If that tape doesn't surface within a week then we can be sure it doesn't exist. I read ABC News bought the church tapes which begs the question why they haven't broken this scoop yet. This is not Obama's Sword of Damocles, something like this simply can't stay hidden until autumn.
Seriously, who are these sources for the tape claims? Three sources close to senior republicans... is that something like "anonymous government officials" or maybe "unnamed military sources"? That's a tired old media spin game beloved of the Bush administration. This manufactured controversy bears all the hallmarks of a Karl "Swiftboat" Rove hit job.
Karl Rove's gambit is to sow uncertainty and split the democrats by fanning the flames of disappointed Clinton supporters. Rove is chipping away at Obama's support, one percent at a time, knowing full well that presidential elections tend to be very close. An acrimonious convention would be very much to his liking.
That the Republicans would go after Michelle Obama was made clear to me months ago by the noise coming from conservative blogs. They say she's shrill, a female Jesse Jackson, not a unifier like Barack, she doesn't have her husband's charisma, is not a good talker etc (all not so subtle digs aimed at downplaying her husband's strengths). This "whitey" thing plays perfectly into the narrative they're trying to construct.
C for effort, Rove, D for originality and hopefully F for results.
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Seems like wishful thinking on some people's part.
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Cunard doesn't know what change Obama will bring - if a person doesn't bother to actually read or listen to any of his speeches how will they ever find that out?! It would be better if a person did that than make crass comparisons to Hitler (especially in the week when he has become Neville Chamberlain according to some).
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/05/20/us/politics/20080520_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html
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Presidential spuses have been attacked for years. Ask Clinton or Nancy Reagan.
I won't make my decision based on Obama's wife.
But I will say she is the mean spirited person, not her critics
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bethpa #13
You say you are embarrassed you are an American. Well so am I. I'm embarrassed you are an American too. Have you ever considered adopting another nationality you'd be more proud of. America is not going to change for you any more than it changed for Ed Iglehart who has been hoping since the 1960s it would turn into one big hippie commune.
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Appeasement?
And Chuck Hagel (a Republican, I think)
And, just by the way, the gentleman I quoted in #5 above is from Kentucky, but does understand Irony, despite being American. ;-)
Salaam, etc.
ed
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I think the appeasers argument is falling apart now isn't it? Baker, Hagel and now the fabulous news that two nations are doing the right thing...
Glad to see our Rumsfeld created laboratory Rambo is here spreading goodwill and peace among all!
;)
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David_Cunard
Change will only come if the American people continue their support for Obama if he is elected president. They must stay involved.
A big problem has been the difficulty in getting the news on tv to cover alternative views...and with this kind of a leader it might be possible to break through in the media
Yes I think you are somewhat right about the "mass hysteria"although I would call it a mass movement ...you can see it sometimes at rock concerts too. Obama does have a movement going..and if he is denied the presidency in some way that his followers feel is unfair...It would be very very bad for America..Those people, his supporters, will not let that go and in some way an injustice about Obama's candidacy will affect America in a negative way...
I became aware of thow a mass movement can be formed when I saw a propaganda film by the nazis and also when i read Albert Speer's book, "Inside The Third Reich." The nazis did use and pervert natural human qualities for evil.
I've protested against the war in Iraq and it is very exhilarating to be a in a mass demonstration. Once in NYC the people spilled out into .the streets and surrounded cars that could no longer move. You have to be there to realize how it feels ( and I like rock concerts too) You may have felt it at the gGaham event
I lived in Germany for two years and I would wonder about people who were old enough to have seen the Nazis. What had they done in that time period?
Now when I look at fellow Americans I think..Did you do anything to speak out about the torture of innocent people by your government? Did you learn all you needed, to evaluate the war in Iraq? When the war went badly..what did you do then?
Anyway Obama is making statements and they are having an effect. Here in Canada he made a statement about a railroad system should not go through some neighborhoods in ( i think) Chicago and the stock went down for railroad company.
Obama is a phenomenom, and he can create a mass movement
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Ptrsin,
Enthusiastic thanks for the video, which I won't quote this time, because it seems that among the verboten words is one referring to the sound reputedly made by geese....
;-)
ed
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It would be better if Obama sat with Osama and discuss their differences over tea, rather than risking confrontation with al-Qaeda types brought in for sure by such 'warmongers' as McCain, right?
Right!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WE NEED THOSE USEFUL IDIOTS!
(V. I. Lenin)
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Thank you Ed for posting #5..
That post about says it all, except for two questions I have
Why have people allowed this to go on? Where were Americans when their government was torturing innocent people and dismanteling the Geneva Convention ... and why is there this strain of uber nationalism in the US?
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bethpa wrote
"You spoke of an America where working families don't have to file for bankruptcy just because a child gets sick; where they don't lose their home because some predatory lender tricks them out of it; where they don't have to sit on the sidelines of the global economy because they couldn't afford the cost of a college education. You spoke of an America where our parents and grandparents don't spend their retirement in poverty because some CEO dumped their pension - an America where we don't just value wealth, but the work and the workers who create it".
This is priceless. In other words we?re are talking about all the people who made poor choices and bad decisions. And one of the most pronounced American mentalities - let's blame others for our imperfections and flaws. So the conclusion is that all those that want change are essentially people who don't think for themselves and want government to decide for them what to do. That's called socialism guys. I came to America with $500 in my pocket and now have health insurance, graduated from college and have a house, (the mortgage for which I carefully analyzed so as not to run into problems further). People's problems are mostly their own fault and not the fault of lenders. It's free market; you don't like it go to North Korea.
And by the way the comment about Ed's desire for hippie community was awesome.
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Awwwww.....
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newBoda
Imo you are a victim. You believe what you are being told by people who are laughing all the way to the bank.
One serious illness will bankrupt you. And many have been surprised to find their insurance does not cover their illnesses.
You are vulnerable but you don't realize it.
The rest of the western world realize how important it is to have universal health care for their citizens.
I am a natural born American and I have American values..at least the ones I was taught in school. ..which are not being followed by the Bush administration
It is irritating to be told to go to Korea by someone who has been accepted by my nation as an immigrant and now attempts to drive off an American citizen! What nation were you born in and what values did you learn there?
The bankers who loaned money to people who were poor credit risks were incompetent businessmen and have put the US credit market at risk. The bankers are the ones to blame...
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No, they were good businessman because they saw a possibility of easy profit. Moral or immoral is a different issue. The fact that some idiot got himself a poor credit history (aka couldn't pay back money) and took more credit is the idiot's problem. Not the banker.
We had universal health care where I'm from and it was pathetic. I do agree that there is a health care crisis in US because prices are not justified. But that is dealt with through competition and free market which isn't happening because of invincibility of insurance companies and lobbyists from pharmaceutical companies. Again too much government involvement. Isn't that what democrats want more of?
I tell people like you to go to other places because you don't appreciate what you've been given. And because you don't know how bad people have it in other places. I'm sure Canada, Germany, and US are not great examples of diversity in economic sense. Why don't you travel to former USSR, and all other socialist/communist countries to see the difference.
My values? The one that matters most is count on yourself and don't blame others for your mistakes.
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newBoda
My grand father fought in WWI and my father fought in WWII . Where were your parents during that time.
And who are you to complain about the blacks in America who have for for generations given their sweat and blood to build America? A nation you are now using for your own selfish purposes.
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Beth,
"The bankers are the ones to blame..."
AND the regulators who turned a blind eye to the risks of partial reserves. AND the politicians who signed blank checks (cheques) for war-making
A portion of the warmongers' profits has, of course, found its way into the pockets of those who lobby for a living.,
and support the "war hero" (if it's heroic to bomb folk from a great height)
and those who operate 527s, etc., etc., etc.
Ike, now there's a REAL war hero, and a wise man as well.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed
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I've been to Russia. You are from eastern Europe I bet.
If I loan a bum on the street some money I don't expect it to be paid back..Bankers are supposed to check people's credit worthiness and they didn't. Some of them made money for themselves while putting the US economy at risk
Everyone who has half a brain realizes this mortgage crisis has placed America in a very bad situation. Americans have too much debt.
But what do you care? After the dollar is worth nothing you can always move to another nation and destroy that one also with your own selfishness.
The US bankers are already moving to asia ..thats where the money is now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7410501.stm
Top bankers 'leaving US for Asia'
meanwhile American workers are getting the shaft.
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newBoda
You know nothing of me and what my experience has been..but I can make some guesses about you.
You are an engineer..I bet.. in some hard science like mechanical engineering or chemistry.
Have you started your chinese lessons yet. Thats where the profits are . America is being destroyed by debt...better move on...
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Mrs. Obama does need a bit of polish on her image. She comes off as a rather nasty piece of work, tape or not.
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Oh, we are word-sensitive, today!
I remarked to Newbodo that, according to his own family history, he knew about the fortitude and spirit engendered in those spending time in bombed-out basements, etc. with a quotation:
But, in my concern to give credit to the author, I linked to the original, which contained a "rude word"....Oh well.....
Dorood
ed
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Ed,
I wondered what had happened to your post.
I think many now think the hatred is coming from the Muslim religion and thats why America is targetted. Americans find it difficult to accept blame or to do any sort of self examination as a nation.
But there are certainly Americans who understand and do want to help those around the world who are in poverty or need help.
We ( Americans) have had the wrong people in power now for almost 8 years. Arianna Huffington calls them "lunatics."
But there is a big change coming imo and let's see how the nation does then...
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The discussion in the latter half of this thread about how we got where we are with housing, loans, gas, etc., identifies various insitutions or groups as sharing blame or worthy of scorn, but overlooks two more universal factors:
GREED - still very much a sin today and the driving factor for:
speculation by all parties vs. ownership or safe and reasonable (non-usurious) profits as a home purchase motive, and for
materialism that drives our trade imbalance and seems to offer a hollow restorative for our economy (here's a special tax rebate - now go spend it)
LACK OF SACRIFICE - or our government policy of appeasing voters:
for example, why didn't we lower speed limits as soon as we realized we are paying terror sponsors half a trillion dollars annually for imported oil? That would have made sense at $3 / gallon and I can't believe it's not on the table now.
Why cut taxes during a 5-year war, fail to provide for our troops and their families, and build a massive deficit?
Why cave in to auto industry SUV marketing and delay raising CAFE fuel economy standards for decades?
Our parents or grandparents came through the great depression and world war with home front sacrifices that would make anything proposed above seem insignificant. We are 'spoiled' by our own government's policy of low expectations that ask no sacrifice, and erode our sense of community and fairness at all levels.
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Bluejay,
I hear you!
We're bought and sold for Govmint gold
Sic a parcel of rouges in a nation!
(apologies to Robert Burns)
And it's pyrites!
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bluejay 60
The US should have had an energy policy for oil after 9/11 and part of that policy should have been ways to conserve oil.
Why that didn't happen will probably be discussed for years, but it was probably because Of Cheney and his ties to big oil. It was a chance to make money ( greed) from a shortage of oil.
I think we are at peak oil, but even if we are not at peak yet, the demand from China and India will outpace the oil available.
If there is something political like a war in Iran, well who knows how much oil will be a barrell then... $200? Its already going above $130.
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I'll repost what I said for the sake of the argument, just without the invective which was brought on by condescending comments of some here:
"My grand parents died in WWII and my parents went through it in their young age living in cellars and eating rotten potatoes when Hitler occupied our country and burned the villages.
Who am I? I'm a human being who saw what poverty is and came to a country that provides opportunities to those who take them and work for them. And I can't stand to see the laziness and opportunism many blacks manifest here"
The comment made about Greed is right on and I agree with that. Although that's not Amercian problem, it's human.
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Before the pedants strike, Rogues!
Slainte!
ed
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Ed,
There is a book out now
?Five Years of My Life: An Innocent Man in Guantanamo,? by "Murat Kurnaz, a Turk who was born in Germany, was arrested during a trip to Pakistan in autumn 2001 and delivered to US authorities in exchange for a payment of 3,000 dollars."
and Kurnaz spoke in front of the House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs yesterday
Not many Americans will know about his ordeal and his testimony but this gives me hope:
?The people who tortured you were committing crimes under American law,? ?I hope in the next few years these people will be held accountable."
?I wanted in the name of the United States to express for you my regrets and my apologies,?
Jerrold Nadler
http://www.house.gov/nadler/
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One last thought is that in my opinion it's plain wrong, and ultimately bad for hte democratic campaign, to question McCain's courage or heroism as a pilot and especially as a POW.
McCain's war duties were to fly his bomber to attack his assigned, heavily defended targets - just like George McGovern over Nazi Europe or like George H. W. Bush over Pacific islands. They all gave years of their lives to that service.
While I have the utmost respect for McCain's service and many aspects of his character, and appreciate his words in opposition to some of the Swift Boat attacks on Kerry, I don't think he brings the policies or vision that we need as president. I think it's most appropriate to debate policies and issues with McCain, but not to minimize his character, especially his military service.
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beth,
"The US should have had an energy policy for oil after 9/11 and part of that policy should have been ways to conserve oil. "
Carter tried to get this sort of thing started long before that, but was betrayed by the special interests operating behind his back.
Sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation!
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Jaybird, Namaste
I apologise for my unfortunate remark, but it calls to mind the irony that, had I not grown an inch too tall, I too, would have probably been flying a jet over Vietnam. My disqualification was only discovered at the end of the physical examination for the USAF Academy.
I was angry and felt cheated, but in the years since, I have felt blessed to have been saved the memories of napalming villages from a great height - like playing on some of our modern arcade games - modern warfare keeps many of the combatants quite insulated from the consequences of their actions, and many manage to return home without ever seeing a dead body close-up.
I appreciate that is not true of McCain, but it doesn't seem that his experiences have resulted in the wisdom to see war as the least desirable method of addressing disagreements.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed
(formerly 6 ft 5 in - now less)
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Ed,
The problem always goes back to the American people..the buck stops there...
We have some good leaders...
No one wants to say its the people themselves though..because they don't want to lose votes or viewers...
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My last post may have been a bit sharp Ed but we seem to agree on the gist of it, no offense meant nor taken.
I read this topic more slowly and found your link to Eisenhower's address and was glad to save a full copy of the text - it still resonates for many issues.
And that reminds me of his daughter Susan Eisenhower's Obama endoresement.
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My last post may have been a bit sharp Ed but we seem to agree on the gist of it, no offense meant nor taken.
I read this topic more slowly and found your link to Eisenhower's address and was glad to save a full copy of the text - it still resonates for many issues.
And that reminds me of his daughter Susan Eisenhower's Obama endorsement.
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Any African American that does not have a love-hate relationship with the United States is insane. And INSANE people should not be allowed to vote.
Michelle Obama has said nothing that every African American has not uttered in the past 24 hours or 24 seconds. African Americans, even before we were officially Americans with the signing of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, have fought in every American War since the Indian Wars. We were Minute Men; Buffalo Soldiers; and rode with Paul Revere. Yet we cannot express our anger at a society that still sees us in terms of SKIN COLOR instead of as fellow CITIZENS.
Right-wing rhetoric and rhetoricticians can stuff it. They six all day talking yang and sending their housekeepers out to make drug scores, yet keep in the good graces of the public. Others channel to Jesus whom they would place in GITMO if they could get their hands on him because he comes from the Middle East and is a ILLEGAL ALIEN.
At least Michelle Obama lets some fresh air into the room instead of sucking it all up!
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Lovely to see how some Burns can make its way into a thread starting with GOP negative tactics. And what's more, I sing that song!
:)
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Ronaine,
I'll take Caesar to your Luath, or t'other way round, if ye wish,
'cause I'm nane o' Scotland's dogs;
But whalpit some place far abroad. ;-)
....
When up they gat an' shook their lugs,
Rejoic'd they werena men but dogs;
An' each took aff his several way,
Resolv'd to meet some ither day.
Woof!
ed
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Ed Iglehart #56
Every plane I've ever seen dropping napalm seemed to be flying very low, not at a great height at all. I wouldn't expect it to be nearly as effective if it came from a great height.
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"I have felt blessed to have been saved the memories of napalming villages from a great height " [#56]
Napalm has never been use to burn villages; however it's been routinely used to clear jungle for heli pads.
The only documented case of napalm burning a village to date is a case of a napalm container accidentally detaching itself from a plane.
Incidentally: from a South Vietnamese plane, not an American one.
--------------------------------------------------------
LAY IT THICK AND SOMETHING WILL STICK
(Joseph Goebbels)
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Fortunately, I haven't the experience to be correct in which ordnance is used in which conditions, but my key point remains:
"- like playing on some of our modern arcade games - modern warfare keeps many of the combatants quite insulated from the consequences of their actions,"
Sadly, this is not true of the footsoldiers on either "side", nor for those unfortunate to find themselves in the middle of "collateral" damage.
My main main point is that the wanton destruction of war is an admission of defeat.
That great war hero, Eisenhower, linked earlier, concludes:
Are such sentiments now thoroughly old-fashioned to be discarded?
I hope not.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed
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A more telling quotation from Eisenhower's farewell address:
AND, for eerily prescient observation:
Let's hope that whoever next sits in the Oval Office is worthy of such regard after half a century.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Is it just me or does Hillary come across as a spoiled child... "NO, I WIN!... forget your rules I make the rules and I win by those rules!... (and if I don't then I change them again!)" Is that really the sign of someone you want to lead a country?! How can she suggest she's won the popular vote based on a state that only had her on the ballot out of the two remaining candidates. Obama has more delegates, more states, the popular vote and is more electable. If she can't honestly beat him in the primary then she can't beat McCain.
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More like, "I made the rules, and I can change them!"
;-)
ed
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But, back to the rumor about the video of Mrs. Obama addressing an audience employing highly-charged and offensive racial language(far too offensive to post in public)?
What if it IS true? And trust me, I pray it is NOT, even though I won't be voting for her husband.
IF it exists, it surely will be released, and:
1. The depth of hurt feelings and sensibilities in all parts of the culture will be immense.
2. The opportunists and race-mongers of all stripes will have a field day, trying to tear us stem-to-stern in the pursuit of power.
I literally pray this tape does not exist, and these words never emerged from her lips in public.
Heaven have mercy on us all.
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OldSouth,
I second your sentiments, especially the last, to wit:
Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you (and all of us)
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SHE IS OF AGE, LET HER SPEAK FOR HERSELF!
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Attacking Michelle Obama is like running through hell in a gasoline overcoat as the Right-Wing shall find out in November.
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@ marygrav #60;
Bravo! I am a white (working class) brit, living in London. Yet you have summed up my feelings precisely.
If there is one group of people who have every right to feel and express anger, bitterness and resentment, it's black americans. I sure as hell would feel that way, and worse, if that was my history, my legacy.
This is not an anti_US pop; been there often, loved the place, can't wait to go again.
It's an anti-racial cruelty thing; the hatred of the oppressed as a result of their experiences is a different thing from the hatred, spawned of fear and guilt, of the oppressor
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Hi, I just found this link from the Daily Mail about Michelle Obama:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-517824/Mrs-O-The-truth-Michelle-Obamas-working-class-credentials.html
best wishes to all
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Laurieann,
Thanks for the link. I don't know if you're British, but over here the Daily Mail isn't considered very authoritative outside its target readership (self-considered genteel ladies of a certain age).
Living in the upstairs flat of a divided house is far from posh, though also far from abject poverty. Whether her dad had a perk job or not, it seems he was definitely "blue-collar", and political/union activism is a natural accompaniment for intelligent and aware workers.
To me, it seems the article has a bit of the hatchet-job in its character, but I'm far from an expert on "women's" newspapers.
Thanks for the perspective, anyway, and I expect Michelle will do fine as First Lady, and I reclkon she's a whole lot better looking than either Cherie Blair or Jackie O...
xx
ed
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I wonder...
It seems to me any tape of anyone preaching at TCC would put the fears up half of the US population, such as things appear to be out there. Presumably that's what the GOP will be making sure gets plenty of airplay.
And wouldn't Sen. Clinton be wishing she could get her hands on a copy right now?
I agree that the Daily Mail really is no place to look for even-handed reporting. I would suggest that (while obviously biased) the Audacity of Hope gives a good insight of Michelle's upbringing. And, having lived with a Caribbean family myself for a long time, I recognise the book's description of her household.
Thanks for the Burns link Ed... love it. Tell me if you know, did he write "Rantin' Rovin' Robin"?
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Even as a conservative,I can see where the adds by Tennessee Republicans against Mrs. Obama can seriously boomerang against them. Do I have problems with her possibly being the First Lady based on her views? I do-but that said, I think it sets a really, really bad precedent, and given that Mrs. McCain does not seem really keen on disclosing her finances-something the Democrats will surely use as ammo against her. I think it's really poor form, to say the least. There are more than a few things that the Junior Senator from Illinois can be called out on-leave the Missus alone.
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Justin:
I am not into attacking a wife (or husband) of a political figure...
[for77, @ 10.47am on 23 May 2008] ...
is making some of the same points about both
Cindy McCain and Michelle Obama (and to a point: Bill Clinton).
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Michelle's comments reflect many other American's feelings as well. . .where has our country gone? What has happened to our fine American ideals and reputation world wide?
Hopefully, her husband can lead us back to decency and we can once again earn respect.
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laugh,Laurieann,
Thanks for the link. I don't know if you're British, but over here the Daily Mail isn't considered very authoritative outside its target readership (self-considered genteel ladies of a certain age).
Well Ed again the diplomat in you shows.
The Daily Diana Is the name I had for that paper.
Every day of the year without fail the Daily Mail printed a story and picture of Diana.EVERY DAY.
It was (I have not read it for 7 years) still printing stuff after she died , every day.
The only thing this paper can be said to have achieved in the last 20 years is that it was probably indirectly responsible for killing Diana .
Have you have seen "keeping up appearances "?
Mrs. Bucket was your average Daily Mail reader .
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It is telling that so many people who have worked with the Clintons prefer Obama. (Governors, Senators, Cabinet members)Why? Where is the integrity in not being able to abide by your word ? Clinton agreed that the results in Michigan and Florida would not count at a time when she thought she had it in the bag, now that she is behind, we hear a different tune! This lack of integrity shows what we can expect from her and the few old cronies still supporting her.
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Justin:
Revising my original comments: attacking a presidential-candidates wife/husband, is not acceptable form of behaviour....
~Dennis Junior~
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