As if 1989 never happened
Two videos for you.
Each of them shows the same extract of a news bulletin which was broadcast on BBC World News at 0600BST on Tuesday morning.
If you were in China, this is what you'll have seen...
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In the middle of the news bulletin, the screen goes to black with no explanation. The blacked-out portion only makes sense when you watch the same bulletin, as seen by viewers outside China...
In order to see this content you need to have both Javascript enabled and Flash installed. Visit BBC Webwise for full instructions. If you're reading via RSS, you'll need to visit the blog to access this content.
As you'll have noticed, China's censors blacked out our piece about the photographer who took the famous picture of the lone protestor confronting a column of tanks in June 1989.
For this country's censors, this week has been a busy time. The Communist Party is trying to remove all references to the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square protests and the subsequent massacre on June 3rd/4th.
An official chronicle of China's recent history may look a bit like this: 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992 etc. In China right now, it's as if the year 1989 simply never happened.
In the last few days, we've noticed a handful of unusual things...
- When my colleagues and I went to film in Tiananmen Square last Friday, we were stopped four times by the police (normally we're checked just once.) Officers told us that we were not allowed to use our camera tripod to do any filming - something we've never been told before.
- In the embassy district in eastern Beijing, Chinese guards are currently wearing flak jackets or stab vests over their uniforms - something that I haven't seen before, and I've walked past these guards almost every day for the last two years.
- When a colleague of mine mentioned Tiananmen Square during a mobile phone conversation, a Chinese voice interrupted his call for a few seconds.
- We get The Economist magazine mailed to our office every week. The most recent edition arrived with a page torn out of it (The contents page shows that the missing page contained an article about the Tiananmen Square anniversary.)
If you're in China, have you noticed anything similar?
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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As much as the Chinese government wishes to deny what happened at Tiananmen Square the events are well known, even within China. Blogs and internet pages in China have told the story and even if the exact details remain secret the attack on the students by the PLA as odered by the leadership is no secret. When the People's Army attacked the People the relationship between the government and the governed changed. China of 2009 is a direct result of 1989. The battle within the leadership and the need to change direction was percipitated by the events of Tiananmen Square. Things change slowly in this world and twenty years is not that long when discussing social change and in China that is a very short period for change. The disheartening thing is that this is a secret that everyone knows and the Chinese government insist on maintaining silence about these events. History is always written by the victors so it is never the truth. In Hong Kong the events are memorialized, so within China there is recognition, just not official recognition.
It is also important to note that almost every country has had similar events where students or unions or refugees have confronted a sitting government and the actions to address such confrontations have been a show of force. China utilized extreme force and that was the nature of the insecurity of the leadership at that time. Twenty years prior had been the Cultural Revolution that scared an entire generation with fear and uncertainity. One day a statue will be erected in Tiananmen Square for the students, but that will come in time. Like the British saying the Anglo-Chinese Wars were about dis-satisfaction of the Chinese with their government when it was really about selling opium in China, the truth sometimes takes awhile to become an accepted part of a national history.
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All quite normal. A repressive and paranoid dictatorship at it's best. No doubt the overseas Chinese will defend the government of a country where they chose not to live/have never lived.
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"When a colleague of mine mentioned Tiananmen Square during a mobile phone conversation, a Chinese voice interrupted his call for a few seconds."
Is... is that verifiable? I don't want to sound sceptical because to be honest I've no reason to doubt you, but... it just sounds so terrifyingly over-the-top even for a surveillance heavy government like the CCP that it becomes almost difficult to believe.
And of course, you've given it as an anecdote, which is hardly evidential, obviously. But the idea that the government might be trying to censor private conversation is really worrying.
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There were many western journalists at Tiananmen Square on June 3 and 4,1989. They published many pictures of the protests. Can they also publish pictures of the "massacre" (not just tanks rolling over barricades)?
There were eyewitnesses who gave different account of what actually happened on June 3 and 4.
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Why has BBC started "commemorating" the event on June 1?
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"the embassy district in eastern Beijing", exactly the place that was circled out by foreigners as "embassy district" in the 19th centry which reminds me of the humiliation and suffering Chinese had been subjected to.
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I am not in favour of massacres; but I think that the repression of the students' protest in June 1989 benefitted China.
After more than a century of wars, revolutions and rebellions, China needed social and political peace in order to develop its economy. The student's protest was moving towards anarchy and chaos and the return to the Cultural Revolution that lasted 10 years (from 1966 to 1976) and that killed millions of people.
The repression of the students' rebellion resulted in social and political peace for China and an unprecedented economic growth and development. Thanks to social and political peace which permitted rapid economic development in China, hundreds of millions of Chinese no longer live in poverty and no longer suffer from chronic famine. Would that have happened had the country fell into anarchy and chaos in the name of so called "democracy"?
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Good move by the western media especially the BBC for trying to stir up something that as long past and was dealt with internally.
Your web site this week as been full of over the top information about what went on 20 years ago. why? You don't really care about people here, you have proved that by your previous blogs and shown distaste for the Chinese. Don't pretend you care.
The BBC fails to mention how it censored Sinn Fein not to long back and how all mention of the conflict there was never in any any history books at school. It's took till now for the truth to start filtering out and most of that is still being covered up.
Double standards yet again by the BBC.
Just another attempt to kick things of here by the West.
This as been dual posted btw just in case your decide to "censor it" and not post it.
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please, I do not think that was peaceful protest!!!!!
the whole country is erupted by those violent rioters,there were footages, BBC must have, but not broadcast them. I was 9 years' old in 1989. now I grow up, after 20 years on, although I regret there were people lost lives, I still would like to keep my eyes on those who led the mess, then got themselves away from it.
there are not many media coverage on those people, they are not dala lama, but they should be carefully look at, as they led students to their ends of lives, when they had only dreams as they push it by hunger strike, with no practical solution what so ever.
please, its so irritating, when bbc kept this kind cold war thinking and try to force people to belive that the Chinese Government carry out killing for fun. Yes, the students were killed, but for the sick of China's stability, for the law and order, if they stay at that night, they should shoulder the consequences.
As a 9 year old in 1989, my wishes to these students were eat and leave!!
As a 29 year old in 2009, my wishes to them are same, eat and leave!!
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BBC has been censoring comments here, why Chinese goverment cannot do the same?
The page of the magazine torn out violated the Chinese "house rules". What's new?
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Censorship. Any thoughts made under restricted access to information has its validity in question. This is to cover me from a bombardment of misinformation and abuse.
I never knew they tap phones so obviously. Two question that I would like to be enlighten on.
Is BBC's site accessible in China?
Do people in China ask themselves why their TVs blacked out so suddenly?
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China has changed a hell of a lot since the events of 1989 that caused it so many problems. China today is a lot more open about many events and problems that happen, and people have a little more freedom than they used to have. I personally wish that China would just hold it's hands up and say "We made a terrible mistake during the events of June 1989 and we are deeply sorry". Then this will be all over, and people can get back to their lives. Constantly hiding the truth time and time again does nothing to help China move forward.
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It's interesting how the smae event could affect different people differently. Wen Jiabao, the current Premier, is actually in the infamous picture of the last public appearnce as General Secretary of the late Zhao Zhiyang, who was out of his job (trying to sound neutral here) after the events. Wen, then the Director of the Central Office of the CCP, was accompanying Zhao on his visit to the Square. 20 years later one is the Premier and one has died after years of house arrest.
I also think it will be of great help for establishing the truth if photographic evidence of what happnned that night could be made public. There is absolutely no hope in establishing the truth if all that could be heard is the story of two opposing sides, both of which have their own agendas and neither of which have good track records of unbiased, well-rounded and informed claims.
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I don't think my comment could publish... Because I have different view point of the BBC.
I'm 27 years old now, and I live in Beijing. I have go to the Tiananmen just several day before the disaster with my father. But we went back home after no more than 2 hours.
The protest acturally last a very long time. From a small group of student to huge amount of people including lots of people just came for fun. I'm really serious! At last some of them are just come for fun(such as me, that time I was only 7 years old). You need to know. There are culture revolution before, in culture revolution, people could run to every place of china, and in that time, except some event, you couldn't leave your city or villiage, you need to work. And all the people have his work assembled by gov, even the children need to go to school. But those day, all the school in Beijing stopped classes. So I can visit Tianmen for fun. And my father is a phd student that time. He really with to advice some thought to the gov. However, when we go to there, we found thing isn't right. Most of the people's motion in there are crazy. The people who is calm as my father dislike that situation, so we leave. And lots of people leave also. Only the most crazy people are stay there more than one day. More things are, First I should say, I don't discriminate the people who isn't live in Beijing, because both my parents are born in Shandon province. But a small amount people who came from other province stay in Tiananmen isn't peace. They burn and break the things to consume their angry... Actually I didn't think all of them are really extrimely angry, some is only for exiting, that the first time they come to the capital of china, the center of capital, and its also the first time to destroy something which if they do in their own hometown would be punished very strict.
One thing is ture, which may disappoint most of the anti-china medium. The students who come to Tiananmen first isn't anti-communism at all. Actually, most of them are communisms as my father. They think the direction of the country isn't right, and for a communist, he has the duty to correct the direction of the country. (It sounds a little ridiculous today,isn't it?) My there are old word in china, that every people need to help the country to pass the bad times. And those communists are the one who bravely come out to advice the party the right way. So, no student is come to show their angry to the goverment at the begining time, they are going to give the goverment advice. However, after the priminister Li Peng refuse to accept the letter of the advice from the students several times. The students angry that they havn't be respect. And some of them swear, if the Li Peng didn't come out to receive the letter , then they won't go back home. After some days protest. Li Peng was afraid, and call the army to protect the order. But at first, its only come to protect the order. The army went through my house, and the soldiers rest at the door of my house, they are laughly talking with each other, and it is definitely their first time come to Beijing, they are friendly to the citizens around them, and they really don't know what will happened just several days after.
However, disaster happened when a bunch of "Football hooligans" meet a coward priadminister Li Peng.
And really, before the disaster happen, some soliders who watching the protest has been killed by some bad people, but no solider is killed by students. However, who can identificate who is angry student and who is mob? Mob usually run away first when they say the gov is really angry, but the students who didn't know there are soliders have been killed, they don't think the govment seriousely wish to repressive, they didn't leave and been killed without know why.
Li Peng is a fool. Most of communists have the same thought as I.
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The Euro-centric countries can pick on China for what China did on June 4th 1989.
However, I wonder how the cities of London, New York, or Paris would do if their students gathered at the largest plaza in their countries eating, sleeping, and carrying out other humanly business for TWO months, in the name of, lets say, anti-globalization or anti-corporate greed? Would these Euro-centric governments allow their national plaza turn into a public cesspool for TWO months? Never!
I also wonder when their students were out on the largest plaza in their countries protesting their governments, would any of the governmental officials go meet and listen to those students. This is because for weeks before crack down on June 4th, ALL levels of Chinese officials from the City of Beijing to the President of China all came out to meet the students and listen to their voices at the plaza or in their offices which were all broadcast on Chinese national TVs. That has never happened or it would ever happen in ANY other Euro-centric countries!
In 1989, the entire police force in the City of Beijing was not even 5% of the police force in the City of New York. So what else could the City of Beijing have done differently to remove the students from their largest national plaza after TWO long months if not using the army at the time when there were no such things as anti-riot police or national guards like we have in the U.S?
While the Euro-centric countries can point fingers at China for what China did on June 4th 1989, if the same thing happened in their countries, they would do the exactly same as the Chinese government did on June 4th. The only difference might be that the Euro-centric countries would NEVER allow their students to camp out on their national plaza for more than a couple of days, let alone TWO long months.
About those student leaders, how could they ask others to hunger strike while themselves drink and feast? And mostly, how could they ask other students to "shed blood" or "sacrifice lives for democracy" while themselves were already in contact with foreign agencies planning their own escape routes so that theyd not die for their causes and live in the U.S or Europe as that's where most of them ended up days after June 4th 1989?
20 years later, as if it never happened...because it was only significant to fewer than handful of Chinese when you look at the entire population of China and if you have just a little cultural knowledge about China.
However, it is MOST significant for Euro-centric countries that want to utilize it for material means on contract negotiating tables in recent years and some years to come.
One day on Michigan Ave in Chicago, I saw a car with bumper sticker says "Be nice to us, or we will bring democracy to your country"
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Nobody here, this site is blocked and who cares anyway.
Nothing happened in Tiananmen Sq., I've watched all the news reports and there is no proof of it, no pictures or vids of the lie. Just a lot of westerners talking silly things and wannabe western Chinese protesters.
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To #11,
I live in china 26 years. I haven't meet any time that my TV black out not because the fuse is overloading.
Maybe that is because we didn't show foreign TV program at all. And I'm so happy that so many foreigners like to look Chinese TV program although they didn't understand Chinese language. Do you always look other languages TV programs?
And web is famous in China only those 8 years. We usually don't have PC, or usually don't have enough money to buy a PC before 2001 year. Before that time we are work so hard to feed our stomach. But now, there are more than 0.3 billion chinese on the web. At least there are 0.3 billion people could buy PC, and have free time to consume. You may curious why, I should thank Bush, he is a friend of China, he helps us more than harm us.
BBC site always been blacked out in China. But it is not so weired in a country who is in the disadvantage position in propaganda compare with the rich developed country. Information freedom only fair when the two opposite voices have the same power. Or who is eloquent who is truth.
Before I came to US, my father told me that I may meet some shock because I meet quite different truth in the aboard, which is very normal to happen in a chinese student who come aboard around 1991(my father study in East-German between 1991-1992). However, I really didn't meet any shock as my father said. All the thing is really normal as I live in china before except US people is really honest. That's the only thing impressed me. I really wish chinese one day could as honest as US people. (I have been cheated uncounted times in my hometown, and I have only been cheated one time in here for nearly one years time). I dislike to be cheated. That make me shame.
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I just read the article written by James Miles. Most of the points in his article are right. I was in my last year in high school and was preparing for the college entrance exam. I can remember the broadcast from BBC and VOA. Everyday they have long hours about the protest, most are exagerated, you can sense a sort of excitement in their reports. That made me believe what the government said about foreign influence. They did exist although those journalists like James would not admit at that time.
I still remember those caotic periods, students from all over the country travelling to Beijing (they can travel free with their student ID at that time, the whole country was disfunctional. Having experienced culture revolution, my parents were extremely worried as they thought another culture revolution were going to happen. For those who studied Chinese histtory during culture revolution, they should know that started exactly the same with students went on protesting, parading, camping in Tiananmen square.
Whatever happened, Chinese government should not use the force at that level, however, the students leaders, the foreign journalists and Zhao ZiYang all should bear responsibilities.
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I agree with what ysjmwsw expressed above. The Western society always complains about China's censorship, while the Freedom of Information Act was only introduced relatively recently, and without the leak and publicity of the Daily Telegraph, I'm sure the British Government were going to erase the embarrassing MP expenses, and the public would not even be aware of it.
If democracy leads to parties within the Parliment to attack and critise each other every day instead of working together, I would think the unity of the Chinese Government would benefit the people more.
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I was a student at Tiananmen Square in 1989, being honest, it was nightmare. It was completely messed-up. We did not know what we want, we thought "western democratic" would be ultimate goal for China, but had no idea what it was. All my classmates went for demonstration and bored towards the end. Many violent rioters are hooligans and yobs, were not students. There were some students were really extreme and aggressive. End of the day, we realize that burn down Tiananmen and change the government would not make China better. Western powers, imperialism and captalisim have never swatched their ambitions off from China.
Look back now, I have been traveling in many democratic western countries, I am glad that was in control, otherwise, China would be poorest country in the world.
For the past thousand years, Censorship is a traditional way to have political power in control, not only with communist party. It is a bit annoying, but that's way it is. It is also the reason to hold 1.3 billion population together, UK and other western countries would never have clue how the power rules in China.
I would like to question why the Nanking Massacre in 1937 War II, 300,000 Chinese casualties, by the Imperial Japanese Army committed atrocities such as rape, looting, arson and the execution of prisoners of war and civilians rising to the level of war crimes has never raised any issue by BBC and Western media, why is Tiananmen Square in 1989 incident with Chinese domestic matter would raise such issue?
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I never knew that an anniversary to an event should take place on the the BBC website up to one WEEK prior to the actual date.
Will we have one week's worth of full page news/views/interactive maps (with complementary zoom functions) of the "incidents" in Iraq and Afghanistan (no "massacres" there, of course) in their next respective anniversaries?
This unrelenting scrutiny of China is unacceptable.
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One of the previous posters made a good point.
Lets face it, no one cares about the chinese except the chinese themselves. Everyone else has an alterior motive be it selling newspapers, taking the moral highground or maintaining a hegemon.
The events in 89 were caused by a misguided belief that western style democracy and western interventon would bring about an improved lifestyle of wealth and prosperity. A family member of mine who was apart of the movement even admits this and has said many a time that they were misguided youths at the time. As with any movement there are also hardcore instigators who will always refuse to admit they were wrong, and these are the ones that are glorified in the west but shunned in China.
89 as with any event in history, contributed to the outcome. The outcome is that it wasnt the west that helped China succeed today, but the chinese themselves. More and more chinese are realising this everyday
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Someone asked "Is BBC's site accessible in China?"
Surprisingly yes (even at the moment when youtube, flickr and hotmail are all blocked)and has been for the last year despite being blocked for a decade before that. The chinese version has always been unavailable and will probably continue to be.
They also asked "Do people in China ask themselves why their TVs blacked out so suddenly?"
I think it needs to be pointed out that BBC world is mostly available in top hotels (where people tend to gravitate to channels in their own language) and expat compound areas. It is not really watched by the public at large. Everyone who saw their TVs blacked out knew exactly why. This happens regularly. A couple of years ago when staying in a hotel I even saw a blackout during a BBC report on Hu Jintao's speech in Washington. Censoring your own president - that's absurd!
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Along with James Miles' article and pictures, James Reynolds also does a piece on the event.
I'm curious what BBC's motives are, suddenly flooding the Asia-Pacific section with Tiananmen Square articles, 2 days before June 4th. I don't remember similar coverage on any event that happened 20 years ago that is not a World War.
As said on James Mile's article: "Reports of the pro-democracy protests in Tiananmen Square and their violent end have had a huge impact on how the outside world sees China."
What the outside world needs to understand is that "democracy" isn't always the best option for 1.3 billion people at a point in time. Pressure from without will not change what the people want, it needs to come from within, and surely when the society advances to the point where it can support democracy, it will happen regardless of government control.
You can cite Tiananmen all you want as an example of government suppression, but if the Chinese people really want democracy, it can't be suppressed.
So with the Economic crisis on hold, H1N1 under control, and not much actual China news, is it time to raise negative feelings against China again?
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"When a colleague of mine mentioned Tiananmen Square during a mobile phone conversation, a Chinese voice interrupted his call for a few seconds."
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James, can we confirm that the interruption voice was in the cellular phone signal, and not from someone who happened to be loud near your collegue, or a nearby TV / radio? The way you've worded the statement is ambiguous to me.
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Post Number 8 was written by Pattang, on previous posts the author the has shown to be pro Chinese government and anti BBC. The author also claims to have been brought up in the UK and to be of Irish catholic descent. If this is the case why are there so many classic Chinese grammar and spelling mistakes in their posts? hmmm
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The levels of censorship and paranoia in China are just plain scary
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This morning I was reading an article regarding Tiananmen Square on the Guardian website. Later on I tried to access Yahoo mail, Gmail and Hotmail. All blocked.
Last April, when I moved to China, hotmail, facebook and yahoo was blocked on a daily basis. We could only check our mail after 2pm. I have asked many Chinese friends if they know why today is an important day in Chinese history. The response "no".
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16. At 6:51pm on 02 Jun 2009, state_clark wrote:
"In 1989, the entire police force in the City of Beijing was not even 5% of the police force in the City of New York. So what else could the City of Beijing have done differently to remove the students from their largest national plaza after TWO long months if not using the army at the time when there were no such things as anti-riot police or national guards like we have in the U.S?"
You don't need tanks and rifles to remove people from the square. It seems that you think shooting, killing and crushing are acceptable, just because the government didn't have the 'right technology' as you claimed. And the government is still denying.
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"When a colleague of mine mentioned Tiananmen Square during a mobile phone conversation, a Chinese voice interrupted his call for a few seconds."
Not surprising, as a reporter working for BBC, you should expect your phone conversations to be constantly monitored by the Chinese government.
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It's irritating how some people think the killing of the students had led to China's prosperity today. As if it could only be achieved through killing.
I started to question whether these people are really as 'patriotic' as they would like to be labeled as. It seems to me that these people care about the survival of a particular regime more than their compatriots' lives.
It has to do with the education I guess, that people are taught the loosely defined 'national interests' is above all. Apparently, for the 'good' of 'everybody', having a few hundred or maybe thousand lives crushed is nothing. Scary.
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I was interested to see the response to this blog from the China-can-do-no-wrong brigade and I must say it is all pretty weak. One attempt to deny that anything ever happened in Tiananmen Square, several attempts to defend the moral principals justifying a machine-gun massacre of unarmed students but in the lead we have the usual questioning of the motivation of the BBC and the entire western world in lingering over such a "minor" event in world history.
I can only speak for myself but I so vividly remember 20 years ago the great sense of hope that we were all on an unstoppable roller coaster and finally the stony-faced tyrants of world communism were going to have to listen to the little guy for a change. Then I remember my sense of total horror at the Chinese government's response. I must say I am glad that China has done well for herself economically but to cheerfully attribute this to an act of such unspeakable brutality is beyond contempt.
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#25 "Lets face it, no one cares about the chinese except the chinese themselves. Everyone else has an alterior motive be it selling newspapers, taking the moral highground or maintaining a hegemon."
This kind of crude generalisation is no better than those which assume the Chinese people to be a homogeneous mass with exactly the same thoughts and feelings and aspirations.
Sympathy is a basic human impulse, one which crosses boundaries of race and nationality. Even though it is difficult to know exactly what happened in Tiananmen Sq, I have no 'alterior motive' for feeling upset that military force was used to end the life of ANY peaceful protestor -- whether one or many -- anywhere in the world.
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It was 20 years ago. James Reynolds might still be in the kindergarten or grade school. I watched the event through American TV, and I swear I did not see any scene of 'massacre', nor did I see 'hundreds of thousands' killed. I did see some young people got hurt and were put on three wheel carts, evidently being rushed to the hospitals. I also saw mob climbed up to a tank and set it on fire. Don't remember if the soldiers in the tank got killed or not.
There were many many foreign media, equipped with advanced communication gears, working so hard trying to take the advantage of the situation. They thought they got the best opportunity to defeat China using Chinese. They all seem worried the event wouldn't be big enough to topple the government... That is the core problem. The naive students saw the foreign media and believed they got help and refused to back down.
Because of the fanning flame by foreigners, I don't think the government made a mistake by sending in the troops. Riot police with water cannons simply wouldn't have done it.
I agree wholeheartedly China needs to gradually improve itself on governing by 'rule of law', reducing corruption, etc. But, is that the right way to achieve it?
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#7
"I am not in favour of massacres; but I think that the repression of the students' protest in June 1989 benefitted China."
You are not in favour of massacres, so what is your favourite way of repressing the population?
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"#7
"I am not in favour of massacres; but I think that the repression of the students' protest in June 1989 benefitted China."
You are not in favour of massacres, so what is your favourite way of repressing the population?"
I think he meant that he was not in favour of the repression, but looking at it now, he thinks it may have turned out for the better this way. And no, just explaining this doesn't mean I agree with him. Thought I'd state the obvious.
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to #41, "It's irritating how some people think the killing of the students had led to China's prosperity today. As if it could only be achieved through killing."
That is your own feeling,Sir, please to understand here, most of Chinese are sad for students who lost lives, but they pleased the situation had been controlled! and those yobs, mobs, roitors whom would understand freedom and democracy equal to lawlessness, had been brought into justice.
I read every comments here (above), no one said they think today China's achievement is benefit from the killing. people with extremely anti chinese view may would have commenting in this logic.
I would say the benefit is that China had been saved from total social unrest and political disaster. peaceful protest is allowed in wherever around the world, but violent and destructive behaviors would meet with tough solution not only in China.
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#49 tclim38
At the time, the Chinese government had neither crowd control experience nor equipment like water canon and tear gas.
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In this blog, I see a lot of Chinese people think, or say, the way the CCP government 'advertise'. Something like 'The government did the right think to suppress the riots, and lead to the tens of years of significant economic growth.'
The student and civilians had a good cause to demonstrate: corruption, officers game the government procurement system to make big money at the expense of the civilians, lack of democracy, etc. They didn't bring weapons from their home, did they?
The troops came in and shoot the civilians and students for what? To let the CCP remain in the superior position.
Why do the 'western media' mind the business of China? The people and government of the developed countries share the same set of values: the country are country of the people, so it should not do harm to the people (including corruption), so killing the people is the last thing it should do. That's why their government, their media, their people, criticize CCP.
CCP, to maintain it's power, to stop the influence from the outside world, tell the people: western want to undermine our country. CCP black out the media from the outside world.
They did it, it is proved successful. Unluckily, more than 60% people in Hong Kong still criticize the June4 massacre. The government are already doing the 'right' thing, and they need to put more effort on advertising the CCP's philosophy.
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If the Chinese people think that the massacre of students was justified, why not show the footage across China? Make it a day of commemoration? Apparently no-one would have a problem with what happened anyway, according to our Chinese correspondents on this blog.....
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So pattang, when we sat down for dinner with our families back in 1989 having watched that footage, and felt sorrow, disbelief and remorse, we were all planning to bring down the CCP were we? The events of 1989 were a major watershed event whether you like this fact or not.
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One thing is quite clear: If the event would have ended in the way western world wishes, China is now another soviet union.
Now the majority of chinese people, including me, feel so lucky that this has not happen. The only thing BBC can do is to bombard its own website with nostalgic reports, for this failed color revolution.
It is good to be so.
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to 28. At 03:14am on 03 Jun 2009, VancouverRaine wrote:
"What the outside world needs to understand is that "democracy" isn't always the best option for 1.3 billion people at a point in time. Pressure from without will not change what the people want, it needs to come from within, and surely when the society advances to the point where it can support democracy, it will happen regardless of government control."
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Good word!We chinese people aren't suitable to democracy now because we haven't entertained and fulfill you guys enough?En,And we really have no will for such boring democracy,we love your officers and staff of state monopoly companies who earns tens times salary as ordinary people.Dear emperors,please keep your society from the dangerous and chaotic democracy because a positive reform can't quench our will to do something.
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I don't feel any lucky that the event ended as a massacre. No good at all.
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53. At 5:52pm on 03 Jun 2009, aeroarchie wrote:
"#49 tclim38
At the time, the Chinese government had neither crowd control experience nor equipment like water canon and tear gas."
I don't believe 'lack of experience' is a valid excuse for murdering people ? Certainly not one for treating students with tanks and rifles, what kind of WMD do you think the students had?
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63. At 10:32am on 04 Jun 2009, shutuhh wrote:
"One thing is quite clear: If the event would have ended in the way western world wishes, China is now another soviet union."
I think the CCP should stop fooling their people into believing CCP = China. Even if CCP fell as a result of the protest, China wouldn't suddenly cease to exist.
You call yourself Chinese but you don't call yourself Communist do you?
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This picture has become the icon of the tiananmen event of 1989. Most people here may have never seen the video of this "tankman". Actually in the video, the defiant man challenged the tanks by standing still. When the tanks want to move around him, he move too to stop them. Later he threw a burning bottle full of gasoline to the tank, and the tank caught fire immediately. Soldiers then hurried out of the tank in fear of burning to death. That's the story told be the original video tape. Unfortunately it was seldom broadcasted because the material is not suitable for western media to tell the audience the story they want to tell. But a static picture, believe it or not, give media more space to fabricate stories.
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1. The 1989 incident is "temporarily" erased from history to ensure a steady and safe economic growth. It's yet unknown when this piece of history will come back.
2. Make sure you have seen the original footage before you post. There was conflict, there was no massacre.
3. To all the Chinese people commenting in here, stop arguing. Almost always, those who initiate the conversation have enough to eat you alive. State what you have to state and leave. Don't fight back - you won't win that way. Furthermore, don't challenge the BBC to post your comment. They're always glad to do that in order to show off how democratic and free they are.
4. People are fooled in any country. As much as what the government says is (most of the time) true, ten times more reasons lie behind every decision of every administration, mostly to maximize the country's security/financial/economic benefits. This argument we're having here only proves that China is feared to become a superpower.
5. China doesn't have a democracy. Democracy is for westerners who inherited humanism and individualism thoughts emerged around the Renaissance. China doesn't need a democracy. Democracy is for countries that, being either too strong or too weak, don't have a catch-up job to do. But in these statements "democracy" meant US-style democracy, in which, voting is the only solution to problems, and not everyone has the money to hold nation-wide elections. Oh wait a minute, has the US ever voted on whether to attack Iraq outside the congress? Like they voted for a president who is certainly for or against abortion?
6. This is after all 20 years ago. That's 1/3 of this country's life. What was the US like when it was 60 years ago? What was the UK like? It isn't fair to compare the current China to the current US.
7. Human Rights - you might mean it, your president doesn't. It hurts.
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72. mpknight
Well said! It is nice to read these ideas.
Anyhow, I come here just to express my feelings, and read opinions from other people. I never expect fighting with words can change anything, only honest hard working counts.
China is making her steady progress, and certainly this will go on. And, we will be part of this story.
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To#21 michy_witchy
"If democracy leads to parties within the Parliment to attack and critise each other every day instead of working together, I would think the unity of the Chinese Government would benefit the people more."
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Agree with you 100%
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Make no mistake about it, the majority of the students were good kids. There were of cause a few bad elements mixed in there, which is normal, but most of them no doubt were patriotic. Their motive shouldn't be discredited.
The problem was the foreign media were way too 'excited'. That might have led the crowd into thinking they were about to break the will of the government. They, knowing the foreign media were on their side, got bolder and bolder everyday (I remember seeing at least one boy in his pajamas meeting with the government leaders), and stubbornly refused to back down unless they got what they wanted.
Imagine if the government caved in and met their demands, whatever they were, there would have 'demonstrations' everywhere in the country everyday, demanding all sorts of things, and the whole nation would have been in complete chaos, if not disintegrated into pieces. And the foreign powers certainly would have sent in the occupying troops (using the pretext of protecting their own citizens ... sound familiar?). China would have been set back 100, 200 years, and very likely just vanished from this earth altogether.
I hope China, the government and the people, will keep improving things on all aspects (especially corruptions and rule of law), and stupidity like this would never happen again.
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#16 State_Clark
One day on Michigan Ave in Chicago, I saw a car with bumper sticker says "Be nice to us, or we will bring democracy to your country"
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"Be nice to us, or we will bring democracy to your country"
"Be nice to us, or we will bring democracy to your country"
This guy certainly has a sense of humor.
hahaha.......
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When I went to China I found that the funny thing about censorship is how slap-dash it is, especially with the internet. For example I could not visit the BBC website, but the UK national papers' websites: the Indy, Guardian, Times, Telegraph etc... were all fully accessible. In fact I sat in a Beijing hostel reading the contents of an allegedly censored World Bank report on China's air and water standards without anyone taking the slightest interest.
Similarly with the people I met; those who didn't seem to care much about politics had very little realisation of the international criticisms of China, on the other hand those who wanted to know were very well informed.
There's a remarkable place in Beijing called Factory 798, it's a commune of artists and radicals (anyone going to Beijing should take a day to wander through the galleries and studios), many of the residents are the remnant of '89. While the government undoubtedly keeps an eye on them their, often aggressive, anti-government art and sentiment is allowed to flourish.
Censorship in any form should be done away with, however what surprised me in China was, in the East coast cities, how symbolic it had become. My guess (and it is just that) is the situation outside of the East Coast cities (which are frequented by Westerners) is far worse. As computer prices drop and interned access becomes more widespread it will be fascinating to see how the CCP reacts.
What I would say is that the CCP seemed to have learnt the lessons of East Germany and realised that in a global economy they can't build walls, and so Nike et al all do a roaring trade. It is possible they will have to acquiesce to the global information network that is the internet in a similar fashion.
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howardxue,
Are you living in China? If yes, you have just told us that you have access to sensitive pieces of information that I don't here in Hong Kong. If what you said is true, i.e. you have watched the video showing the 'tankman' threw some 'burning bottle full of gasoline to the tank', then you have corrected my (but I think I am not alone) biased view that mainland China have banned all discussion and materials concerning June 4 1989.
Thank you so much.
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#75 tclim38
Your post started out sensible but degenerated rapidly into unrestrained fantasy.
"And the foreign powers certainly would have sent in the occupying troops (using the pretext of protecting their own citizens ... sound familiar?)"
Do you mean like during the boxer rebellion? Or like the Japanese occupation? Do you still believe references to such distant history are relevant to today's world? Perhaps in the mind of the CCP propaganda machine - a useful rallying cry for nationalism after all. In any case, what power or coalition of powers would have had the manpower or remotest wish to have done as you suggest? You are on a different planet my friend.
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As a close neighbor to China I would rather have China as she is now than one that could have possibly be thrown into anarchy 1.3 billion strong?
BTW my Scottish colleague and I watched the BBC broadcast about this event while we are in China few days ago? We were waiting for that brave man to lob the molotov cocktail onto the tank ... sigh where's that.
I was in the UK when this happened and upon returning to my home country for a holiday, I spoke about this to my father (who emigrated from China in the 1920s). I was all for the students and against the tanks. My father just calmly said something like "Son, do you know what will happen to China if the the government can't control this?" .... I dare not imagine.
Someone mentioned this before, but yeah the BBC should make an anniversary for the Rape of Nanking or maybe th Opium War.
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I'm a Chinese Citizen,and I really wanna confirm the " a Chinese voice interrupted your call " stuff,you're sure the voice is not some servicing messages such as notice of bad signal? Caz if the voice really come from the surveillant,it's horrible!!!!
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When it happened, I was just a middle school student. But I did remember many adults tried to tune into news broadcast by what was then called 'the voice of the US' (meiguozhiyin)so as to know the full scale of the tragedy. Deep down, many Chinese know the truth even though they were forced to silence it and bury it.
I burst into tears when I watched a BBC documentary last night; my heartfelt sympathy goes out to the mothers and fathers who lost their young sons and daughters!
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As a Chinese, my friend always asks me what i feel about 1989, and i feel difficult to explain to them how I feel.
Most of people in China knows what happened in 1989. I think it's a shame in Chinese history. It's a wound forever with new scar just grown up. Yet what we know more is China can't afford another war. For over 200 years, ever since your British forced us to open our gate, China has always been in wars. Now it's been around 20 years of peace, and the whole world can see the progress China has made. We don't need to just tear away the new scar and expose the wound and get hurt again.
We believe that at one day, and i believe that it will be in very recent future, there will be a different judgement on 1989 by Chinese government. It will happen in a way that everybody feels natural.
That's what we want about 1989.
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No. 79 Doogletastic:
No, the likelihood of invasion by Western powers is still possible. Notice how most Western countries today are currently stuck in a quagmire invading Afghanistan or Iraq?
Of course, they wouldn't want to invade China today, due to Chinese NUKES.
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