Defining relationships
Being leader of the world's most populated country appears to guarantee you a good seat at dinner.
At the G20 summit dinner in London, China's President, Hu Jintao took the prime seat to the right of the host Gordon Brown. To Mr Hu's right was France's President Nicolas Sarkozy.
This could have been a reasonably glacial encounter. China has been angry with Mr Sarkozy for holding a meeting in December with the exiled Tibetan leader, the Dalai Lama. But, just a few hours before the dinner in London, China and France released a joint communiqué in which France rejected Tibetan independence. This communiqué was apparently enough to ensure that Mr Hu and Mr Sarkozy were able to munch their shoulder of lamb in harmony.
The Chinese media has covered every moment of President Hu's trip to London. Of particular interest appears to be his meeting with Barack Obama - the first time the two men have ever met. We probably won't learn much from the few minutes they spent together. But in the long term, the relationship between China and the United States may come to define the course of this century.
China is now starting to exercise the political, economic and military power it's built up in recent years. Until recently China preferred to follow the advice given two decades ago by its late leader Deng Xiaoping - "hide our capacities, bide our time, and never be in the limelight."
But that policy is slowly changing. The governor of the Central Bank of China recently suggested replacing the dollar as the world's reserve currency. China has confronted the US Navy in the South China Sea. This country believes it should now have a greater say in organisations like the International Monetary Fund.
But China also needs help. This country has risen because it sells things to the rest of the world. But right now, the rest of the world can't afford to buy as much as it once did. So, factories in China have closed down. And 20m Chinese workers have lost their jobs. This country needs the world to start spending again.
As I write this entry, Hu Jintao has just gone into the conference hall in London (I noted that his limousine arrived fourth last - ahead of stragglers Lula, Sarkozy and Berlusconi).
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~40~RS~)
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Mr Sarkozy must be a 'Gemini' - Two face.
The western countries change their support toward Tibet's independence to their own benefit. Last year it was Britain, now it's France.
Makes me wonder if they are truly in support and believes in Tibet independence, or are they just using Tibet issue to get what they want from China.
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If this is the kind of "power" China has built up, it has a very long way to go. China's central bank's "replace the dollar" proposal was not quite what you - and most of the media - make it out to be, and China's SAFE comments, as well as other comments since, make that abundantly clear. Similarly, I find it bizarre to continually read that China "confronted the US Navy." Buzzing a couple of lone, unarmed intel ships staffed by contracted civilians in international waters with fishing vessels, cutters and prop planes is not exactly what I would describe as "confronting the US Navy." When a goup of Chinese naval vessels tries the same with a group of US naval vessels, I'll be impressed. As it stands, the U.S. simply announced a (small) escort was being sent and, lo and behold, the incidents have ceased.
Far too many people fail to understand the difference between the almost tribal nature of many Chinese 'military' commands and something the Chinese government itself has sanctioned.
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Wise Deng implemented the workouts on the training pitch; now Hu has the reins for a few initial matches. The future remains to be seen, but team China seems match-fit and finally ready to play "the game."
The issue with France shows that China finally understands how to deal effectively with the Western World and now has the capacity to do so: leverage.
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China is certainly moving up the international pecking order, and not before time !
We in Britain have tended to adopt an "out of sight out of mind" to China as it is on the other side of the world.
Yet our approach is fraught with danger. Due importance MUST be accredited to China.
As well as the UK being detached from Europe, our mindset is very insular. We have no idea what French, German or Italian attitudes to themselves and other nations are.
So what chance have we of appreciating how the Chinese tick ?
All this UK insularism stems from the days of the British Empire. We must revolutionise our thinking and consider Britain as an unselfish team player on the Europe and world stage.
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Well, I don't think China just all of a sudden demanded a greater say in the IMF. The Western countries asked them to put more money in it and I think it's only reasonable that they should have a bigger say in how that money's spent.
Also perhaps you would like to mention that Sarko agreed to denounce Tibet independence just in time to be on the good side of the PRC. Seems when your country's economic well-being and your political career are on the line, Tibet can wait. It was all just for show in the first place anyway.
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I'm encouraged by the meeting. An eventual alliance between the USA and China, plus Russia, would be an amazing force for good.
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China's relationship with The US and the English speaking countries will defined the history of this century.As a ethnic Chinese but English educated,I feel that there is too much unfounded fears on the rise of China,especially in the Anglo world.The advice, by Deng Xiaoping is a behavior, common to Chinese.Others may view it as the cunning Chinaman,waiting for his time,but that is what the Chinese,described as a stoic people do.Centuries of deprivation had taught us, that it was and is the best solution, other than to go and fight.China had not tried to impose its Han culture or religion on others.Tibetans today still speak Tibetan and have Tibetan names.In actual fact,China is the world's largest Buddhist nation.By contrast Nelson Mandela,Hugo Chavez(of Venezuela)and Evo Morales(President of Bolivia) do not have their native names and neither do they practice their native religions.Westerners should see themselves in this light before they accuse others.
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If you are interested, there is an article in newsweek about China's rise. The increase in consumer spending in China is offsetting the lack of international trade so that the economy in China is less affected. Also, not many people seem to note that many of these factory workers have farms to go back to - be it if only for self subsistence. Yes there are million unemployed factory workers, but for many it was just a money making opportunity even if temporary. People should still be able to fill their stomachs.
Even if taking all these above points into account - yes, China needs to fully cooperate with the international scene. Well, at least on this front. Now, bring on all the human rights activists.
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Just try to make a point as to how wrong the rumor and speculation could be. A few days before the G20 in London, there were rumors that China's Hu and France's Sarkozy would not meet. But what a surpise! They not only met but they wanted to further their strategic relationship under a much publicized communique. Briton should be very proud for hosting such an important event by inviting all of the top 20 world economic leaders. I can not imagine what kind of security measures that it must prepare and endure. For the sake of humanity survival, let's hope something positve is coming out of it.
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China bailed out IMF, now with bigger says (with voting right) and soon imposes supercurrency, Special Drawing Right(SDR)as a new international currency which floating above all world currencies including USD.
That means all nations (including US and UK) are challenged with their own competitiveness to maintain their currency values against SDR.
The G20 summit has marked that China already an economic superpower.
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It's just a return to the natural order of things. China's fifth of humanity will no longer have 5% or so of global income. The country will no longer be a diplomatic backwater racked by byzantine domestic intrigues. China's just returning to where it belongs, a big country with big interests and hopefully a big voice.
Let's hope that voice will be used also for other countries sidelined in earlier decades: despite its fear of still lower-pay cometition, China should realise that it has interests in common with those yet to break out of underdevelopment, to a greater extent than with richer countries still dreaming of regaining some of their lost paramountcy.
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James:
As to what # 6 comments, were saying.......I am glad that the leaders were able to have a meeting to discuss many of the global issues that are around....
~Dennis Junior~
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China seems to be very satisfied from the French statement of not supporting Tibet'
's independence. Dalai lama and Tibetan people are not seeking independence either, they just want real autonomy. The envoys of the Tibetan people have presented a memorandum to th chinese government as they have asked, i belief this should be available to all the chinese readers so that they could know what exactly the tibetan have said in the memorandum. there is no word of independence in it and CCP is still harping the same tone of independence...
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I think western world is pragmatist. They choose any policy benefit for them. Tibet was a slave society. Tibetans undergone too much back then.
Don't they know this? of course , they do. But they don't have chiose.This is political rule. They must do anything they need do.
That is why western world is inconstant in most Chinese eyes.
The world become more international,interactive, No country can live alone without other countries. so co-operation and communication is right way.
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“China and France released a joint communiqué in which France rejected Tibetan independence”
I'm not good at politics, but I thought France has no right to support nor reject Tibetan indepence, since Tibet is in fact part of PRC and China along has the sovereign rights over Tibet, no?
Maybe France can try to support Stockbridge-Munsee tribe in US, as the tribe is recognized as a sovereign nation while their lands are occupied by US. That sounds more fun.
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Mr.Sarkozy's rejection of Tibet's independence doesn't mean he won't meet with Dalai. The Western nations has played with China by dancing between Taiwan and Tibet issues.
By the way, I don't know a "serf" is until today. Why wasn't that word used in the English language as often in the past? It is like a medical term which no one knows. Why no body ,including you ,never brought this up before what had happen in Tibet 50 years ago.
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James:
The governor of the Central Bank of China recently suggested replacing the dollar as the world's reserve currency. As to the comments that you are making, President Obama (United States) "suggested that the dropping of the U.S. Dollar does not make sense....
~Dennis Junior~
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Based on James Reynolds' reasoning, the Indian PM should be seated on the left of Gordon Brown, being leader of the second most populous country.
Presently China is the third largest economy in the world, but it is likely to replace Japan as the second largest economy this year.
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#8 endyjai
Another difference between the unemployed Chinese migrant workers and their western counterparts is that, not only that they are not in debt, they have savings to bring back to their homes.
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China spends too much time defending ancient boarders and maps. One day maybe Mongolia will lay claim to China. Maybe the original settlers from India or Maylay will claim China as well. The world sits by as China populates Tibet with Chinese citizens to hold a vote at which time the Chinese will be the majority. The world is run by fools who have no interest in the will of peoples, only money and profit and power. The Chinese peole suffer under the corruption of Chinese officials too. Arresting a parent trying to find justice for corrupt school building in Sichuan. This is Chinese justice.
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well, Sarkozy scores again after the G-20 summit. China must have felt being tricked again. Wish him good luck in his dealing with China in the future.
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"Being leader of the world's most populated country appears to guarantee you a good seat at dinner" apparently,the guy is always trying to make some sense of humor,actually, we can see his afraid and helpless on the growing China's position in the world, so funny!
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The Tibet/Dalai Lama issue is just one of the dirty tricks the West uses to disturb, defame, contain and take advantage of China.
When Tibet and the Dalai Lama are of no future use, the West will ditch them anytime. Tibet and the Dalai Lama are always expendable in the eyes of the Western leaders. Sarkozy has just shown that in the meeting with President Hu.
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XunFang: Part of the reason for that is because of china's one china policy, basically you agree to it to be able to trade with china, if you don't agree with it china won't trade with you. Considering how important China is to the rest world when it comes to the economy, if you don't trade with them chances are your economy is not going to grow. As a result countries only say they accept the china's "one china" policy just to be able to trade with you, when in reality they really don't. Can you really blame them? I mean a lot of countries success depends on being able to trade with china, it's basically economic suicide not to trade with china just like it is not to trade with the US.
limkheakwei: They are more unfounded then they are founded but they are legit, China is a nation that uses proxies when it comes to using force or military force in a conflict, china supplies and funds proxy groups in other countries armed conflicts. So its not really a peaceful rise.
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China may be playing a greater role in world politics but China will never force other countries to accept China's ideology unlike Western countries which talk nothing but 'democracy, human rights, rule of law, freedom of speech etc'. People will only follow your ideology if you set an example - the West proved that democracy and capitalism can lead to economic success but not anymore that is why democracy has stopped spreading. Other people are copying China because China is successful.
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#25,
You said:
"Tibet and the Dalai Lama are always expendable in the eyes of the Western leaders. Sarkozy has just shown that in the meeting with President Hu".
I had to diagree. After their "historical meeting", Sarkozy announced that he never promised that he would not meet with Dalai Lama again. So where is that expendability?
More precisely speaking, the Tibet issue is nothing but a bargaining chip. History proved that it is a political entertainment that the western leaders love to put salt on this fifty year old Chinese wound to see how fast they can run... IMHO, it is better than the last Olympic game.
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I am really curious... How do people all over the world, when they reach this tiny blog and see the comments posted by the Chinese, think about Chinese? All of them are patriotic? All of them are brain-washed? All of them are wise/ foolish?
I see so many patriotic, single-sided, and government-supporting comments here, so I am curious. I see the 'Westerners' criticize their own countries much more often than... Chinese. I see some US citizens feel shame about their countries on some diplomatic policies, criticize their government's unpopular policies. But I see all Chinese proud of China's power, wealth, influence, and hate 'Western' countries' 'invasion by any means'.
I think we can see the difference, aren't we?
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"They are more unfounded then they are founded but they are legit, China is a nation that uses proxies when it comes to using force or military force in a conflict, china supplies and funds proxy groups in other countries armed conflicts. So its not really a peaceful rise."
The 'arms' we supply are mostly military hardware such as trucks, communications equipment etc which can be used INDIRECTLY in conflicts. The UK, Russia and USA are the real culprits who supply guns and bullets used DIRECTLY in conflicts. AK-47 is the mostly widely used and they're not 'Made in China' are they?
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#31,
You said:
‘How do people all over the world, when they reach this tiny blog and see the comments posted by the Chinese, think about Chinese? All of them are patriotic? All of them are brain-washed? All of them are wise/ foolish? I see so many patriotic, single-sided, and government-supporting comments here, so I am curious.’
You had a very good observation and raised a very good point for further discussion. I think that the ‘Chinese’ who have the proficiency to use the ‘proper English’ to write articles in this blog are not the ordinary Chinese. They ought to be highly educated; hence their observations may be derived from and based on different international sources. Of course, you can't eliminate the possibility that some government sponsored agents got involved here also.
I don't know the motivations of other people who wrote the ‘patriotic’ comments here. But I can tell you that I am a Chinese American Christian living in the US, there is no reason for me to be ‘patriotic’ to a nation that I don’t belong to and I couldn't possibly get influenced by the Chinese government propaganda. On the contrary, I should be the ones that criticize them the most for their lack of religious freedom. Nevertheless my comments are based on decades of readings from different sources and careful analysis and logical deduction where their government would go in the next 10 to 20 years.
Someone commented earlier and I agree is that if you don't know the Chinese culture, their language, their recent history under the colonial invasions by then world powers and the struggles that they went through in the last century, you couldn't possibly understand where their ‘patriotism’ comes from. But if you observe things from this angle, perhaps you would know why they have reacted in the ways they did for various international issues and why they are so forcefully protecting their national interests.
I hope that within 10-20 years China is going to move to a successful hybrid political system of more openness, more peaceful, more traditional, more freedom, and more western like democracy. On the other hand, China has very uneven wealth distribution, development discrepancy between coastal and in-land regions, uncontrolled pollution, official corruption, administrative bureaucracy, severe and prolonged food poison issues and distorted nationalism to be dealt with. Whether or not they can possibly succeed is hinged on the balance between these two forces.
Another interesting thing that I want to point out is that the unofficial house church Christian population in China has been exploded exponentially in recently years. There are probably more Christians than the entire US population. So please tell me, can you predict where this country is heading?
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Disharmony between the government and the people wouldn't echo there?
Of course, political minority are always would be. But nowadays, more and more people have got aware of individuality and keep standing by their own point of view. So I would like to hear the French people's reaction to the president's statement.
I'm not a christian but the situation makes me recall the Jesus's say;
Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.
As a citizen I'm obliged to pay taxes for the 1.1tri. bail-out, but would stick to own humanity.
Mr James Raynolds, your article are always courageous. Thank you.
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"I am really curious... How do people all over the world, when they reach this tiny blog and see the comments posted by the Chinese, think about Chinese? All of them are patriotic? All of them are brain-washed? All of them are wise/ foolish?
I see so many patriotic, single-sided, and government-supporting comments here, so I am curious. I see the 'Westerners' criticize their own countries much more often than... Chinese. I see some US citizens feel shame about their countries on some diplomatic policies, criticize their government's unpopular policies. But I see all Chinese proud of China's power, wealth, influence, and hate 'Western' countries' 'invasion by any means'.
I think we can see the difference, aren't we?"
We support our government because we think (I only said think and you are free to disagree) that our government is doing the right thing. We criticise our government A LOT but only on internal issues. Is a problem that we don't like the 'World order' crafted by Western countries? We are proud of our wealth and influence but that is because we are proud of our CULTURE. If we are powerful nation like the United States but a cultural wasteland then we would not be proud. Deep down we are proud to have survived 5000 years of storms.
Western and Chinese culture differ SO MUCH (I've had personal experience) and so we will obvious disagree completely with the views of Western people. Governments to us are almost like parents and how would you feel if I make false accusations about your parents? Even if the accusations are true (we Chinese) won't say them directly (we may drop a few hints). To us only very uncivilized people would do that (I don't mean to say Western people are uncivilized what I'm trying to say is that there's a clash of culture as what is acceptable to a Westerner in this case is not acceptable to a Chinese).
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davep01 wrote "China's just returning to where it belongs, a big country with big interests and hopefully a big voice."
With accentuated power, or as you say "a big voice", comes heightened responsibility and accountability. This is something that must be earned, not bought, this is something that China realized during the Olympics, your money cannot erase history and almost a century of malevolence directed abroad and towards their own people.
pchen442 wrote "Other people are copying China because China is successful."
And I would love to know who these countries are, and what these acolytes can boast to? Are you talking of Burma? North Korea? Sudan? please elaborate, and show how this is such a fine example, especially with communism pretty much proven ineffective, barbaric, and unsustainable.
davidzhai wrote "That is why western world is inconstant in most Chinese eyes".
And in just less than one century, China has been ruled by an emperor (Pu Yi), reunification during WWII, undergone a terrible occupation, more civil war, democracy, Chiang Kai-shek, Communism, Atheism, Mao and the cultural revolution, Famine, Deng Xiaoping, Capitalism, Crushed pro-democracy movements, and presently a impoverished labour force with no rights being exploited for the bourgeois and landowners that Mao disdained and executed. Please explain why the West is seen by Chinese as inconsistent, look in the mirror and repeat yourself.
pchen442 wrote "AK-47 is the mostly widely used and they're not 'Made in China' are they?"
The Type 56 assault rifle is a Chinese copy of the Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle, the Type 56 remains in production by Norinco for mass export to customers like warlord in Africa, Burma, and N. Korea.
Sorry to burst your bubble of a peace loving China.
waitinghk, I think what you are alluding to is that it is obvious that the West has freedom of information and speech, if our Chinese counterparts actually possessed this, the reactions on these forums would not exist, because when a free press has replaced the propaganda department, there is no comparison, and you can choose for yourself what is the truth, from multiple sources and stances, instead of the alternative.
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pchen442: If its used in a military operation by the military or its primary usage is to be used to help facilitate violent acts its not being used "indirectly". For example look at sudan and darfur, china is the primary weapons suppliar for sudanese government and the janjaweed. Back in 2006 they were also the primary military suppliar for nepal and burma, they included rifles and grenades, they also included a lot of "trucks", "communications" equipment etc. You are correct that US, UK, Russia sell more but at the same time china isn't innocent either. China's rise isn't exactly peaceful.
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To #31 waitinghk,
Just like you, I was born and raised in Hong Kong. I went to university in Canada in the 90s, and I am now working in Hong Kong.
I have free access to all kinds of information from media, and I have not one day been brainwashed by the CCP propaganda.
As a Hongkonger, I am sure you know we critize our governments (both Hong Kong and the Chinese) a lot, either via newspapers, TV & Radio programs or internet forums.
If you have ever surfed any Mainland Chinese forums, you should also know that our Chinese compatriots critize and complain about the government and their policies a lot too. But of course, very often sensitive discussions are quickly removed by the internet police.
With regard to the overwhelming majority of pro-China posts from Chinese readers here, I think the main reason is to defend China from deliberate defaming. Afterall, as a Chinese, whether patriotic or not, could you not voice out when people try to demonize or split your country with twisted facts and biased reports?
It's true that China has tons of problems like rampant corruption, legal injustice, pollution, lack of free political speech, huge wealth disparity, etc. But we all know that China is improving everyday and is developing at the right direction.
I believe Chinese readers here are educated and are with decent mind. If we (ever) see more balanced, unbiased news and stories about China on BBC, I am sure we will see more balanced views from Chinese readers as well.
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@31 waitingHk
I see so many patriotic, single-sided, and government-supporting comments here, so I am curious. I see the 'Westerners' criticize their own countries much more often than... Chinese. I see some US citizens feel shame about their countries on some diplomatic policies, criticize their government's unpopular policies. But I see all Chinese proud of China's power, wealth, influence, and hate 'Western' countries' 'invasion by any means'.
I think we can see the difference, aren't we?
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Of course we can see the difference, which is when we chinese discuss the issue your have mensioned, we write it in Chinese and put it into Chinese web sites. You can not expect we discuss our internal affairs in English, can you?
When discussions come to topics like how to manage our country, the depth, extent and critical manners of the articles in blogs of our web sites, no matter state-run or commercial ones, are no less or even more vigorous than what you have just mensioned, which even suprises me sometimes. Have you read them?
So this is really the interesting point why most chinese act so similarly here in BBC. My answer is: The whole altitude of you toward China made this to happen. The west world know little about China (as shown in the description above), but always assume yourself to be correct and tend to instruct us what to do (e.g. 'free Tibet'), or doing something that harms us to make yourself feel satisfied (like what Mr. Sarkozy have doen). To be honest, I am so confused about this self-supermacy altitude in the first year of my living in Europe. Later on, I get used to it - what else can I do?
The direct conscequence is: Most chinese, no matter he/she likes the current goverment of China or not, have already had enough with all your acts. Then, they come to defend China, their own land, as a cultural, historical and geographical entity. That is what you see and what you feel 'curious'. To some extent, the west world have made a great job: helping chinese people to unite together again, which in fact can't be easily achieved by Chinese goverment itself.
government-supporting? lol
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To #14 redtibetan,
Dalai Lama called himself "A son of India" in a press conference in New Delhi on 31 March, 09.
Well, was this an act of treason?
On one hand, his envoy was negotiating with the Chinese government about Tibet's autonomy. But on the other hand, he showed his true face of wanting to be an Indian. Mmmm....something funny must be going on....
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To Noliving,
1)Countries recognises the one-China policy because they need trade?Sir, is it not better for China not to trade with people it does not agree than to bomb or blockade them into submission?
2)China uses proxies in its wars?Sir the British are the masters of divide and rule.At one time almost all the dictators of South Americas,Asia and Africa were /are proxies of USA. Their weapons for war or suppression were from US.The present wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were partly started by US/Britain why back in the 70s.Need you need to know more?
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Such change of stances from Britain and later by France makes me wonder that whether they really believe the values like 'Truth' and 'Justice' that once inspired many people or are these values relative terms that is inversely proportion to the money and military power? I still believe these values shouldn't be compromised at all cost.
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I understand China have issues, but the French have alot of issues. I suggest Hu Jintao first exercise China's diplomatic might by making French cultural abrasiveness and arrogance illegal. Force this onto the UN constitution and carve it into stone at the New York Headquarter.
A five floor bronze monument should also be erected at the peace park, it should read, "From this day onward, humanity shall be free from the dark ages of French narcissism and egotistical disproportionality."
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Governments and people world wide need to remember that the way an agreement or promise is implemented or understood in the PRC may be very different as to the way agreements are implemented in the rest of the world. A splendid example this was the protest areas during the 2008 Olympics.
When the PRC was awards the 2008 Olympics, they had to agree to allow protests. As the Olympics approached Beijing seamed to be reneging on this. With a great deal of pressure from the western press Beijing agreed to set up protest areas. Great, but then Beijing put a requirement that all protests had to be approved by the police. Many people attempted to get the police permits – none were approved and several people where threatened with arrest, including two 70 year old grandmothers. Therefore no protest and Beijing told the world that everyone is happy in the PRC. China has a habit of agreeing to something and then when the other party has completed its side of the agreement it will put up all sorts of obstacles and reasons as to why the Chinese side of the agreement is never implemented.
By examining the behavior of the leadership in the PRC and Chinese business persons, you can see the same pattern of deception over and over.
All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
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oh well, 20m unemployed people for any western countries are, indeed, represents huge challenges, where it poses threat to social stability, racial tensions, social equality and so on...
nevertheless, in china ordinary people will find ways to survive on their own rather than seeking helps from the government. this was the case in hong kong in 70s and 80s. i am sure this has not changed at all.
western bias always has a mindset, if a problem bothers the west, then the west will be automatically assume it is a problem for the chinese too. NOT REALLY.
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I think China has the potential to be the Next Leading Superpower, but democracy eludes them. Democracy will Never be forced upon the Chinese Government. But, as the leading country of the future it will need democracy to receive correct information (political and technology from the World.
The United States' people love Chinese culture and admire it. And thoough people at this site assume that the West is a Bloc of unfriendly nations, truly there is no such bloc. There are, separately, Europe (with Germany, France, Britain and Italy (All having different cultures and opinions), the United States, and the Pacific Rim countries. And the last two areas are very dependent on Chinese Consumer Power. Thank you.
Thank you for letting me post a comment on your very nice board. This Blog site is educational And I can use it as a kind of "University of China." (for working people like me)
I'd like to learn much more about China and its people. Don't worry too much about American power or decline or ascension, as this IS a multipolar world with many different cultures. And Americans DO like, respect and admire China and its people.
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To # 30 mikelia,
As the President of France with access to top secrets and intelligence, I believe Sarkozy knows very well about the TRUE history of Tibet and the TRUE face of Dalai Lama. I believe he also knows how Tibet has progressed and developed under Chinese rule.
Meeting with Dalai Lama is just a political act to please some lobby groups and voters.
In reality, I doubt if Sarkozy really cares about how Tibet, Tibetans, and Dalai Lama are doing (given his knowledge of the TRUTH).
So when the benefits of having a good Sino-French relationship overweighs the benefits of this "Meeting with Dalai Lama Political Show", Sarkozy will know how to choose.
Lastly, I agree with your view of the bargaining chip thing.
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To #46 fclopez,
I believe if Dalai Lama, the Tibetan government-in-exile and some Western forces had not orchestrated the March, 08 Tibetan riot, the mass influx of distorted news reports and the subsequent disturbance of the Olympic flame relay, the Chinese government would not have taken such a hard stance on the "Protest Zone" issue.
Those melicious "incidents" had indeed caused the Chinese government to take a back step and be defensive, thus changing the goal of holding a "Free & Open Olympics" to a "Safe & Trouble-Free Olympics".
That being said, protests would probably still be controlled but in a much lax way I believe.
You said:
"....China has a habit of agreeing to something and then when the other party has completed its side of the agreement it will put up all sorts of obstacles and reasons as to why the Chinese side of the agreement is never implemented".
"By examining the behavior of the leadership in the PRC and Chinese business persons, you can see the same pattern of deception over and over".
Isn't that what World politics is about??? All countries change their stance that best suit their national interests. For example, the U.S. signed Free Trade agreements but after the financial tsunami they are looking for loopholes to implement more protectionism.
Moreover, isn't the "Sub-prime crisis" a kind of deception engineered by greedy investment bankers??? How about "Mandoff's Ponzi Scheme", "Standford Bank Scandal" and numerous other investment hoax???
Regarding politics, how many politicans in the world have given empty promises and told lies to get people's votes???
Please think about that.
But then again, I am NOT saying that the Chinese government, the government officials and Chinese businessmen are ALL innocent. There are always bad apples.
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'The United States' people love Chinese culture and admire it. And though people at this site assume that the West is a Bloc of unfriendly nations, truly there is no such bloc. There are, separately, Europe (with Germany, France, Britain and Italy (All having different cultures and opinions), the United States, and the Pacific Rim countries. And the last two areas are very dependent on Chinese Consumer Power. '
#48, your comments pleasantly surprised me. This makes me wonder if you have any Chinese connections, i.e., Chinese friends or relatives?
But any how, I am just curious. I have been living in the US for almost 40 years. I sworn in as a US citizen and I have been going up and down at least three times with the US economic turmoil. I have been living in many US cities. According to my observations, Americans are basically a bunch of mend-your-own-business people. They are generally proud, patriotic, friendly, care-free and constantly looking for enjoyment and good pastimes. The only thing that I'd like to point out is that the subtle racial discrimination still exists. I don't know where this superiority complex comes from and where it may go, but it is kind of white supremacy mentality embedded in the minds of majority of White Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP) populations, even though they will deny that they even harbor this thought at all.
Another important point hat I want to raise is that Americans have blindly trusted their media and consider that as their bible for a very long time, even though these reports are obviously superfacial and may be even fabricated for sensational purpose. Their view for Chinese is basically biased and stereotyped and their view for China is still a Stalin-ruled dictatorial state without human rights and religious freedom, even though China has since moved away from the sole Marxist doctrine since Deng. They constantly point out their accusation fingers at China and forget that they are doing the same thing in the mean time.
This unfavorable view about Communist China has been deeply ingrained in their hearts ever since the Chiang Kai Shek’s defect to Taiwan and it is almost impossible to change. I guess the late Madam Chiang’s congress speech during WWII might still have a residue effect after all. I think that even the older British generation may still have a favorable view about Chiang also, simply because he has sent his general and rescued British forces in Burma during WWII. There fore, in order for the western people to trust and like the past Soviet Union connected Red China, it would be a steep and uphill curve for the current Chinese leaders to climb.
During this economical downturn, the western internet blog sites are filled with the semi-suicidal boycotting noises, even though they know China is currently the major credit holder and supported their economy. Until the western media has unbiased views and they are willing to lay down their superiority/inferiority complex to deal with China on equal basis, there will always be East-and-West clashes.
Rudyard Kipling once said - East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. Therefore it probably would take many generations to come and more cultural exchanges between East and West and perhaps then the misunderstanding due to cultural gap can be narrowed.
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#36 – Very well-said. I think that all too often these comments are viewed as “east hates the west” and the “west hates the east”, when the very thing that is at the center of these perceptions is the vast difference in our cultures. I’m from the US, and I have to admit that I have a hard time understanding a lot of things about the Chinese culture. It doesn’t mean that I hate China or its people. It does, however, make me curious, and my curiosity leads me to places like this where I have greater exposure to members of different cultures.
I find the comparison of your government to a parental figure very interesting, and it does shed light on certain devoted attitudes among the Chinese that I’ve observed. Here in the US that is certainly not the case. Personally, I view our president as the person that was “hired” to do a job, which is to lead our country. I always respect the position even if I don’t agree with the person who holds it. Our government, in its purest conception, is “for the people, by the people”. To me, that means that I participate in the democratic process by voting to elect our leaders. Then, I watch what they do and if I find that I disagree with their policies or performance, then it is my right to vote to remove them from that position during the next set of elections. That is far removed from a parental relationship. No matter how much my mom and I argue, I don’t have the option to vote to remove her from her position as “mother”.
And I can completely understand the Chinese on this board wanting to defend their country when they feel it is being attacked. I am extremely patriotic myself, and I can understand the sensitivity on that issue. As an outsider, it would be interesting to see some of the internal Chinese criticisms you had mentioned. I know that on American sites, criticism of the government is often posted and discussed. I think just seeing that the Chinese does much of the same would help us understand each other a little better.
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MrJackRussel
If you still describe China as a 'Communist Country' then you are burrying your head in sand.
AK-47 are mostly produced by Russia. No there was never any bubble to begin with we certainly don't want war and even if we do we do not have the military capacity to fight a global war unlike the UK and the USA. That's is just foolishness. Unfortunately the world (minus the West) sees China (at least in comparison to the West) as a friend. No one likes the West --- it's the West vs the Rest unforunately... people see the irony of the aid and charity etc you provide. This is like taking millions away and only giving back one sterling and constantly boast about it...
North Korea, Zimbabwe etc can develop because the West sanctionned them effectively meaning they are excluded from this globalised economy. They can't trade. Imagine if you have to grow your own food, make your own car, provide your own entertainment etc etc how poor would you be? No offence but the whole Western notion of capitalism of zero-government regulation doesn't work either as we have seen and the Western system is backfiring into one that's actually quite seemly to the Chinese style 'Capitalism + Socialism'.
Chinese people criticise our government WAY more than Westerners do (our media don't but our PEOPLE do). The difference is we tend to agree with our government on external issues. Is there any wrong with NOT agreeing with Western notions of 'Human rights', 'Democracy', 'Freedom of Speech' and 'Rule of Law'??? If we disagree with these we're just going to be called 'brainwashed, pro-government, biased nationalists etc'. What's wrong with not agreeing with them having our own interpretation of how society should be governed???????????????????????
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I am raised well, Mikelia, most likely and in my opinion, very well observant of Chinese development and societal evolution. It is as close to a "open society" as it has ever been. Also perhaps the current government IS very competent compared to many/most Western governments.:)
Yes there are bigoted people living in the USA presently (similar to other countries), but please be aware that there ARE people here also who have read Chinese publications like, for instance, "Beijing Weekly" at their respective University libraries. And there are many intellectually aware students, young and old(er) who are not "knee-jerk" ignorant and emotionally stuck in past attitudes towards China and it's people OR the Chinese diaspora of peoples in the wider world. With much open mindedness, interest, and respect. Thanks for your comments.
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Dear pchen442,
I was pleased to see you responded, I hope we can have a nice dialogue. I do think you have a passport, on the inside cover it should state Socialist Republic of China. You may think, yes, we are not Communist, yet what does CCP mean? Ahhhh. The single party that governs your country, CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY. China is run by Communists, pure and simple, a politburo is still calling the shots, not the ordinary Chinese citizens sitting around feeling self important while naively blogging, waiting to be arrested in their chat rooms looking at information that the government allows them to see.
Who is the "West"? Is this axis of evil a conglomeration of despotic rulers who torture their own citizens for their freedom of religion, political views, and criticism of their own state/government?
when we begin talking about rogue states ruled by dictators, should we freely trade with them, so that they can harm their citizens more? Should we allow them to gain enough power to threaten the countries around them? When free and fair elections are not allowed, and military leaders rule a country, like in North Korea, Burma, and Sudan, then please explain how it is ethical to conduct trade with them as China does, profiteering off of human rights abuses, again and again.
why doesn't your media represent the people? honestly answer this. How come you think your countrymen think something, yet it is not publicized? Could it be, that your government, is afraid of change? afraid of organization? of grassroots networks of individuals standing up for their unrepresented angst and disillusionment?
It is not wrong with disagreeing with the West's concept of human rights, it is like Plato's allegory of the cave, it is just shadows on a wall if you haven't ever seen the light.
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The "West" actually is not depicted as evil in China... contrary to what you think. The mass media often depict the Western people and country to be more civilized than us and are innovatively superior.
I admit that ordinary citizens do not have as much of an influence in Chinese decision making than Western citizens have over their makings. However I think that's what we want. We DELEGATE power to the officials to run things for us - we've employed them to run the country for us. There may at times be disagreement and just because there's a protest or two doesn't mean it's the people's wish. We want the government to stick to its guns (figuratively lol) and not give into protests but do what it thinks is the best.
Free and fair elections won't work in China I'm afraid... we've had a few elections at village level and it didn't quite work and people are calling to abandon it (that's people who were given the right to vote). Why? I'll tell you... China's is a hierarchical society with the engines at the top. There are many local forces at work and so if you elect pepole they will be too influenced by local forces (i.e. the rich land owners and big businesses etc). Only if the municipal government picks an official for us (which is considered undemocratic in the West) can the selected official be powerful enough to resit siding with local powerful and (hopefully) look after the interests of ordinary citizens more.
Even if a country is a 'dictatorship' you should still trade with them. If you don't then they become REALLY poor like N Korea. At the end of the day it is the ordinary people who suffer. The ruling elites will never find themselves in shortage of things no matter how poor the country is...
'Why doesn't your media represent your people?' country to this statement I think it does. I find in China the media are MUCH MUCH more informative than Western media and provide you with a very detailed knowledge, facts and figures. In the West the media are persuasive but not very informative. You may know that Chinese people don't always speak what they think even to friends and families never mind about to the general public. There's a trick lol. You often say things subtedly and expect others to 'read between the lines' and if you say things as plain as they are you often will be considered rude and uncivilized or at least 'unsophisticated'.
I've lived in the UK for 10 years. I came here when I was 9. If Western notions of 'human rights' etc are so great I would have accepted it. To be fair most people like me have accepted it - but that's I think because they have heard the Chinese side AT ALL. Some of them even feel ashamed to be associated with Chinese. Friends would laugh at them...
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#57,
The question is not whether a government is communist or democratically elected, big or small, but whether it works. China's centralised political system is working, for most people, most of the time. That is necessary and sufficient for a country as big and as diverse as China. China has many ethnic groups, many local religions, many local dialects; giving a "voice" to each individual would mean that nothing could be agreed upon.
I can't help but be amused at westerners ranting on about CHINA using the ENGLISH language. It raises the question of how much they actually understand about, and seek to know more of, China. Perhaps it relieves them of their frustration at the way their "democratically elected governments" have made a complete mess of their own countries. Ah, but surely in your democratic countries you can effect change? Thus conceivably you should be able to stop the RBS boss from getting his £600k+ pension (at least via the court of public opinion), or stop the government from increasing public debt, or vote on the European constitution as promised in an election manifesto, or indeed even to stop a war with one million protestors on the streets. Oh, wait, you can't do any of those things. So much for democracy.
Every dog has his day. Unfortunately the British bulldog is about to receive its pension. Step aside cordially for China, thanks.
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