Tough words on human rights
This time of year sees a semi-ritualised exchange between China and the United States.
On Wednesday, the US State Department published its 2008 Human Rights report. The report includes a 47,000-word section on human rights problems in China:
"The government's human rights record remained poor and worsened in some areas. During the year the government increased its severe cultural and religious repression of ethnic minorities in Tibetan areas and the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR), increased detention and harassment of dissidents and petitioners, and maintained tight controls on freedom of speech and the Internet."
Late on Thursday, China delivered its reply. The Information Office of the State Council released its 10th annual report on human rights problems in the United States.
China's 9000-word report paints a bleak picture of life in America:
* "Widespread violent crimes in the United States pose serious threats to its people's lives, property and personal security."
* "Americans live shorter lives than citizens of almost every other developed country, ranking 42nd in terms of life expectancy."
* "Drugs, suicide and other social problems prevail in the US."
* "Many young Americans have personality disorders."
* "Racial discrimination in the judicial system is appalling."
China then reaches its conclusion:
"The US practice of throwing stones at others while living in a glass house is a testimony to the double standards and hypocrisy of the United States in dealing with human rights issues, and has undermined its international image. We hereby advise the US government to begin anew, face its own human rights problems with courage, and stop the wrong practice of applying double standards on human rights issues."
Tough words from both sides. But this yearly exchange of human rights reports appears to have very little practical impact on US-China relations.
Just a few days ago, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton held talks in Beijing with all of China's leaders - the issue of human rights was barely mentioned (in public at least). The US and China have also just started two days of military talks in Beijing. And the two countries continue to rely on each other's business to get out of the world's recession.
What do you make of the two reports?
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What strikes me about these reports is most of the problems with America are the result of the US Government not caring enough, not regulating enough, i.e. inaction, the problem inherent with small government.
The problems with China are all direct consequences of government action, tight control, suppression, repression. The actions of a very large government.
Inaction vs. action.
Which one you like best?
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Whilst most of the world's electronic items, household goods, durables, etc, can be described as being made in China, ills such as:
adventures in foreign lands, occupation of native American territory, use of torture, extraordinary renditions, denial of Hawaiian independence, teenage pregnancies, shootings at schools/universities, high crime rate, toppling of any regime deemed unsuitable/use of the A-bomb - twice -
are, I'm afraid, made soley in the US of A.
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Please be reminded that China is still a communist state and not a capitalist state practising multi-party political system like the west. Please don't use the western yardstick of human rights to judge China. The westerners should mind their own business of their own human rights issue before attacking China which is practising a different system from the West. China is a huge country with many many challenges facing the leadership. Of course, there are corruption problems, income disparity problems, problems of power abuse by the corrupt officials and the pressing unemployment problems and human right problems yet to be resolved by the Chinese Government, please allow me to ask this question, which country is immune to the problems I have mentioned, be it communist or the capitalist state.
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It seems that only the conclusion part is relevant to the purpose of this Chinese report. The rest reads like 'Since your young people have personality disorders, we can conclude that there's no human rights problem in China'.
It will also be interesting to look whether the US government will just dismiss all the problems mentioned in the Chinese report keep whining about how the Chinese are meddling in their internal affairs.
My prediction is no formal response will be given. Is this worth responding to anyway?
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Both China and the US need to do better if the reports were true.
As Chinese I can only ultimately speak about China itself - there is a long way to go.
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The logic is easy
He who is without sin among you, cast the first stone at her.
or
Don't do to others as you would not wish done to yourself. (????????)
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The US always believes that it's the world police who have the rights to interfere with other countries' internal issues, but the truth is the US is nothing more than a corrupted cop with little moral or legal grounds to rise any accusations.
China, on the other hand, probably had enough from the states and decided to offer a similar style of the non-sense report.
I believe the US should simply shut up and look at its own businesses and then, China would save some time and energy to produce the counter attack to the hollow and meaningless reports.
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When money's involved human rights go out the window.
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I personally think that it is a good thing that both Governments publish a human rights record each year on the other country. Very often, one cannot see his own faults and needs someone else to see these faults. This is the purpose of the reports and each Government should pay attention to the criticisms contained in them and try to remedy or improve.
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Mind everyone notice that the human right report of China is solely against U.S.
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To Doogletastic,
Inaction sometimes are bad also. I recently learned from the U.S. National Public Radio (NPR) that over 50% of Navajo people does not have access to running water or electricity, a consequence of U.S. inaction. While China's action leads to massive infrastructure investment in the Tibetan area resulting in huge improvements in the standard of living of average Tibetans.
China has a long way to go to improve its human right record, especially on the bad side of action. So is the United States, and this is on the bad side of inaction.
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Both documents are just propaganda by their respective publishers.
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[China denounces US 'rights abuse']
What was that, call this a report?
Chinese had a 9000 word report on US abuses and the BBC gives us a half page note of what the US said in their China human rights report.
What did the Chinese report say about the US, we like to know.
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The Republicans and Democrats cannot talk about human rights when they insulted and assaulted each other as well as extend the same treatment to the Libertarians and Greens.
The USA also has violation of human rights when it comes to repression of minorities, prohibiting Independence for Vermont and Hawaii, and allowing insurance, and promoting the culture of death.
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beijing_2008 wrote (comment 3):
Hmmmm, let's hash through all that:
**"adventures in foreign lands"
**"occupation of native American territory"
**"use of torture"
**"denial of Hawaiian independence"
**"teenage pregnancies"
**"shootings at schools/universities"
**"high crime rate"
**"toppling of any regime deemed unsuitable"
**"use of the A-bomb - twice"
--
Hopefully the HTML ends up all right. I used a lot, had to change a lot to get the piece to post, and a single error could mess the thing up. The BBC should invest in a 'Preview Post' feature, as well as a link to just what codes are allowed.
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Fair enough. Both countries have their faults and hopefully these reports will ensure they recognise these.
If China and it's people think they are going to assume the sole position of world Superpower though, they need to think twice. The world is moving away from hegemony.
Instead we'll hopefully see a more multilateral structure based on respect and equality. The EU, Russia, North America, The Middle East, Brazil, India, and China will all have a significant and responsibile part to play in this new order.
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Ahhh, this back and forth reminds me of a good joke....
Two friends, American and Chinese, were sitting in a cafe discussing politics.
After a while, the American told his Chinese friend that China should try to emulate America more. He said "In my country, we have real freedom. Why I can criticize my government and my President any time I want."
The Chinese responded "That is no big deal. I can criticize your goverment any time I want, too."
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I'll just say this:
The American government cannot respond to this because it keys on the problematic and glorified history of America and also undermines America's attempts to be the guiding light to "corrupt" nations. Also to factor in is the fact that because all the issues that are put onto America provide rich white Americans their riches, it is hard to see there being any reason for those who can change America, to change America.
A note: It is hard for me to blame American government for the statistics in which American bankers are the true culprit.
I am glad that China published this report because it will really help America in the long run. Besides maybe opening some peoples eyes (American are really really stubborn when it comes to threatening the delusion of equality in America) it will give the actual politicians who want to make a real change some ammunition against the corruption of equality being promoted by greedy politicians.
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"It seems that only the conclusion part is relevant to the purpose of this Chinese report. The rest reads like 'Since your young people have personality disorders, we can conclude that there's no human rights problem in China'. "
I don't think the above is the logic of China report. What the chinese government wanna say through the report is "we admit there are lots of problems about human rights in China, but so do you in US. We made some progress in past years and now are still working hard to improve human rights conditions, which is hardly mentioned in your reports. So it is sorts of unfairness. And what we can not accept is that you US cannot use human rights issues as excuses to impose your political agenda on us, for example, to support something illegal like Free Tibet movement or Falun Gong practitioners, or to give political protection to some chinese crime suspects. "
China and US have a little bit of difference in definition of human rights. For the China government, "Poverty is the most severe violation of human rights." The rights of survival, enough food, shelter, healthcare, education, work and social welfare, are some of the most essential rights of human kind. If you are a slumdog, it's hard to say that you're enjoying your human rights, even somebody tell you you can still enjoy free religion, free vote, or free expression. Instead you're sufferring from your human rights conditions without enough food and proper protection from violence. Even in US, if you lost your job, your human rights condition will mostly be worsening, no matter how much the politicians have promised you.
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As a UK ex-pat I lived in the US for 3 years and lived in fear due to their ridiculous healthcare system and this from a supposed democracy.
In employment one is required to sign a huge document in favour of the employer and you are employed under 'Employment at Will' which allows you to be fired at any moment. Forget about 'Constructive Dismissal' etc. And try and find a lawyer for it when there's little law in place on so many issues. You have a case as long as a lawyer feels its worth his while.
I was amazed at how backward their infrastructure was. Short sliproads on to the freeway and visibility limited by shrubs etc. Little global news on the TV.
I found the US was truly in a 50s timewarp -and so much of the real 'dirt' racial or otherwise is kept out of the public domain. A mexican in a car accident was awarded $9k - would that have been the case for a caucasian? I was amazed at their car designs - wasteful, no innovation or real safety features and gaz guzzling - sorry folks but you've had this coming for a long long time.
So I tend to agree with the Chinese on this one - look to yourselves US before you point the self-righteous finger. How about a real global comparison exercise at this point. Oh, and Obama - I wonder which country did in fact begin the invention of the motor car....
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James Reynolds:
What do you make of the two reports?
I am going to be neutral on this issue, because the U.S. Report on China regarding the human rights inside the country does have some valid and important points.......
~Dennis Junior~
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It was regretful that both sides are not taking human rights as a serious issue. Their publiscations are just tools for their politics. US needs to be criticized because they were the starter. In their reports they should have listed what china said. And this sort of games were not creative as it happened every year. Boaring! Next time I hope China will publish first, if can not, just publish on the first day each year.
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I am the direct victim of chinese persecution. there is no human rights in Tibet. people are tightly control of military presence. I am sure many of you who comment on here have never been like us. we lost everything, our family, our land and our way life. USA and china will fight back and forth creating many troubles for many common people with their policies but the ultimate victory to either side will one good result oriented war. if that opportunity comes, I will be the first Tibetan to offer my service for that sacrifice.
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I would find this whole thing hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it seriously concerns me. That China thinks it is on the same level as a free-thinking nation in commenting on human rights is beyond absurd and disturbing. While there is no doubt that the US has a lot of issues to work on, especially in how it processes crime through its judicial system (as a student of criminology in the US, I know), it is also possibly the most advanced nation in freedom of information. Much of the information that China has gathered from its report comes from US governmental sources! designed for the utilization by US citizens to work on improving their social system! The last time I checked, China wasn't releasing data about its population that would mar the reputation of its non-democratic government in the eyes of the world or especially in the eyes of its own citizens. I mean, keeping them blind means keeping them in check, right? The only countries that have the moral right to comment on the USA's social failings are other countries that have open societies and freedom of information -- so possibly western Europe, Australia, and Canada, among select others. And I say POSSIBLY because there has never been another country as open with free speech and freedom of information as has the USA.
A few other comments on China's "report".
I'm curious about what is meant with the statement:"Many young Americans have personality disorders." The Chinese "research" goes on to state:
Researchers found that almost one in five young American adults has a personality disorder that interferes with everyday life, and nearly half of young people surveyed have some sort of psychiatric condition. Fewer than 25 percent of college-aged Americans with mental problems get treatment.
Okay. My response: #1) A personality disorder in the American medical system can be classified as mild as attention-deficit disorder, one of the most over-diagnosed and least-harmful "personality" disorders in US. And are you telling me that in a country of over 1 billion, in China there are fewer kids with ADD or symptoms that would correspond with an ADD diagnosis in the US? #2) Those college-aged Americans who have mental problems and who don't get treatment. Well, its true, a lot of young Americans don't have proper health insurance and that is indeed a problem that the US needs to work on solving. However, I don't notice the population of young Americans suddenly becoming incapacitated upon leaving the parental nest because they can't handle their ADD or a little adolescent-to-adulthood depression. How are those millions of college grads without jobs in your country doing mentally, China?
The section "On Civil and Political Rights" I won't even dignify with a discussion. I'll just point out that Chinese citizens can't even browse the internet freely and are spoon-fed government propaganda via their "news"papers.
"There is a wide wealth gap in the American society." Yeah, there is. But at least we have a functioning middle-class.
Finally, the section regarding women's rights in the US. The first sentence in the "report" says enough: "Women account for 51 percent of the U.S. population." My response: Consider, in the USA if you're female fetus you have the same right to be born as a male! How remarkable.
See NPR: "The [Chinese] country's 2000 census indicates 120 boys are born for every 100 girls, giving China the highest sex ratio in the world." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3499024
Yes, the US does have problems to solve in violence against women. But so does the rest of the world. Additionally, as a young American female living in a "dangerous" American city, I would argue that the US is one of least constricting societies for women in the world, and I would rather be a woman in this country than in any other nation on this planet.
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Every free country, the US included, must work actively to maintain respect for civil rights.
On the other hand, China is a country that:
* Exploits the working classes to a degree that evil capitalists can only fantasize about
* Where certain forms of slavery are, de facto, legal
* That maintains a ruthless occupation of Tibet and tries to obliterate the indigenous culture
* Persecutes anyone who disagrees with the ruling oligarchy
* Etc.
For the Chinese to point to US civil rights issues is beyond ludicrous.
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I think it is ridiculous that there are comments on this board telling people "shut up" about their beliefs and mind their own business. How contradictory!
First off, as a US citizen, I have serious concern for the human rights in this country. Our imprisonment rate is deplorable. The racism prevalent in many parts of the country is embarrassing. The federal and some state governments have a very poor record when it comes to personal privacy. Whenever I feel the rights of the citizen are being eroded, I try to do something about it (write Congress, attend local gov't meetings, etc.).
And if human rights are abused abroad, I think everyone has a right to point them out. Why? Because one country's abuses affect the quality of every person's life. If let unchecked, they will become someone else's problem. Let's not forget the lessons of history. Damming a river in one country affects its flow into another. China cannot separate its internal affairs from its external economy and diplomacy forever. And if "educated" citizens want to tell others to shut up for making a statement, they will never partake in anything but a childish diplomacy.
Human rights are not a waste of time; they are not something that can wait for "material wealth". When is a country sufficiently prosperous for basic freedoms of expression? I say, right from the start.
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I agree with comment 16 that the reports are a good thing.
It is not true that "The The U.S. practice [of criticising the record of others regardless of its own] has undermined its international image." The problem is not with the criticism of others but with its own record.
The image of the US will suffer in the eyes of some of those criticised, but it is enhanced much more by the fact that the US takes the initiative in producing such reports. China should refrain from criticising the US for producing such reports and focus on the underlying issue - human rights in China, the US and elsewhere.
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To me, there is no diference, ok? Stoping blaming one another. Let's build the world now, please!
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How can US complain our human rights situation?
We CCP never starve any of our people to death! Ever!!
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Crazy delusional people... all those supposedly "American" problems occur in China at more drastic levels; keep throwing the stones.
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Guantanamo bay certainly weakened the US' moral stance. It's foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired. The US needs to follow China's lead and look internally before looking externally. Whereas with China, although it does have a long way to go I'm given the impression (despite plenty of negative reporting) that its leaders understand what needs to be done and are slowly working their way there.
P.s. When the US' critique on China was published, this appeared on both the Asia and Americas pages of the BBC, yet China's critique only appears on the Asia page. For neutralisms sake, shouldn't this appear on both again?
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Doing 'human rights' report on other countries is absolutely meaningless. It is a total waste of time. (Unless you need that as a pretext for a preemptive strike.)
Each country should criticize itself, not others.
By the way, how much 'human rights' Iraqi people have, since the invasion???
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I gather, at least from this blog, that the report from the Chinese government is directed specifically to rebuke the American report on the worldwide repression of human rights. Not only that, but it appears that the Chinese report mainly reports that human rights are diminished due to social insults due to individuals in the U.S. rather than the national government, while the American reports faults the Chinese central government, rather than individuals. I think it's important for the individuals of both countries to realize that there is no perfect union, but that regardless of our progress so far, we yet have to reach that city on a hill. As citizens, we share different, yet similar struggles for survival and governments never quite represent our individual beliefs.
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Such reports are good for the two countries. China is sensitive to criticisms hence her over-reactions most of the times, but looking at the improvements she has made over the years, it may be right to think that criticisms do have their positive effects on China. Let's hope such is also true for the US
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All the issues the American report mentions are related to human rights and pro-active actions of the government to control it's people. The issues mention in the Chinese report seem to relate to problems directly caused by some people in America and not the government itself. Im sure the American government have already identified most of the issues mentioned in the Chinese report and are trying to solve each one - they look that much better for doing so also. Have the Chinese government admitted and started addressing the issues mentioned in the American report?
Alas, not. How long can ignorance really remain "bliss"?
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beijing_2008: Technically the US doesn't have the high of a crime rate. If your going by the murder rate then you are basing it on the most rarest form of violent crime. If you go by the most common forms of violent crime and other crimes then nations such as Canada and UK have higher crime rates in areas such as Assault which is the most common form of violent crime in the entire world.
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rodmace2000: The US doesn't consider critiques of its human rights as interference in its affairs, as a result they don't consider critiques of human rights of other countries to be interference in their affairs.
SimonChin: None of those are not good enough excuses too not talk about the violations or problems facing the nation. If you don't talk about a problem then it will never get solved.
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As a 50 year old American ex patriot living in China, I have experienced both cultures, governments and societies. In China, I can walk safely with my wife down the city streets, day or night. the children in the school where I teach English can sing Christmas songs, have Christmas shows and talk about God without being sued by the Atheist minority. People have plentiful food and many have more than one children, despite what you hear otherwise.If you compare the approval rating of the Chinese government by it's people to that of the U.S.A. which is at a dismal all time low, it would not even be close. I hope I never have to go back to the States. Life in China is very good. I have been to the poorest parts of the country as well as the richest. The people of China are much happier than those in the U.S.A. and if you came here you would understand why.
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This is all a fundamental misunderstanding of what human rights really are.
To many Chinese, the old idiom 'A full stomach is the only real human right' but this is not true.
Let's look at China's spurious examples of America's poor human rights:
* "Widespread violent crimes in the United States pose serious threats to its people's lives, property and personal security."
-Crime by one person against another has nothing to do with human rights. This is between individuals.
However, if you are arrested and charged with an offence, you have a human right to be treated humanely and have a fair and transparent trial - unlike in China.
* "Americans live shorter lives than citizens of almost every other developed country, ranking 42nd in terms of life expectancy."
-What has this got to do with human rights? That's partially due to bad health decisions by INDIVIDUALS not the state. Americans eat a lot of junk food, but that's their choice.
* "Drugs, suicide and other social problems prevail in the US."
-Again, this has nothing to do with human rights. We can't get a true picture of social problems in China because the CCP lies so much anyway.
* "Many young Americans have personality disorders."
-And probably many Chinese do, but try getting counselling in Gansu Province. In other words, you can only diagnose personality disorders if you are looking for them.
But, again, this has nothing to do with human rights anyway.
* "Racial discrimination in the judicial system is appalling."
-Evidence, please, CCP. How many non-Han judges / court officials are there in China? Not many I bet.
To the CCP, human rights are all about stability and prosperity, but this is not really what human rights are about.
Human rights definitions differ, but in general they are about the relationship between the individual and the state.
The rule of law, democracy, the right to be treated humanely by the state, even when it is not necesarrily in the State's best interests to treat you well.
If you get on the wrong side of the state in China you will not be treated humanely or fairly.
The individual is nothing against the State - but human rights are about the right of the individual having prominence in its interactions with the State.
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What is interesting and also ironic is the China report released just as a response to the US report,'coz the China one only critized the us while the us one critized many countries of the world--what a world cop the US acted--maybe Obama could lead the West who has actually got used to "his" leading and will also be willing to be led.But China is never interested in this US-led-but-claimed-equal club!
And James usually your blog made me feel sad and worried!A very ordinary event might be every extraordinary in your eyes!and what's worse seems ridiculous is that you actually get this ordinary event involved with human rites and freedom,like we chinese people have no idea what real freedom is!you always tell tragic stories china with a tone of politicians which is surposed to be one of neutrality coz you are a messenger!
I'm a college student in China.i know there are still lots of problems in China and some of these problems happen every day.but i understand China has been free from colonialism for only 60 yrs while ur country for centuries!i'm happy to see china has covered the same way and made the same progress that many other nations could never achieve!but also there is still a long way to go for china!
im supportive of the CPC's position in china and capability of leading such a big and complicated nation!i can not imagine what china will be like if our gov't become a what the west calls "democracy".I dont want mainland china to be chaotic "Thailand" and uncourteous Taiwan.
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The government that has carried out the most horrible human rights abuses in the last 10 years is pointing its finger at developing countries. Has it looked at itself in a mirror before starting (once again) its finger pointing behaviors?
In the last 10 years, which government on earth killed 1 million people? which government subjected millions of people into permanent disabilities? What moral ground does such a government have to talk about human rights?
I guess they do not even need a moral ground. The only thing they need is the banners of democracy and freedom. Once they hold those banners high there are plenty of people will see the "democracy" and "freedom" only. All the dirty business and blood on hands will be covered up really well.
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If a problem is widespread, it is called social problem. If a problem is trageted, it is called human right abuse. No matter what it was called, it is still problem.
So stop this bias views, it is not going to help the victims. What was needed is for China to lessen their human right abuse and for US to correct their social issue.
Stop stop trying to protray the west as free. They are not, they are self regulated.
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the US human rights report is not really intended to improve human rights in china, the real intention is using it as a chip to contain china, for example, the reports put pressure on Europe not to lift the arms embargo on china. It also maintains the metaphor of 'china= bad human rights' in the international community.
When people feel hotile toward a government of a foreign nation, they also feel hostility toward its people.
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I agree with others that the reports by both countries are a positive, necessary thing--even if they are somewhat trite squabbling. Too often both Americans and Chinese (I am an American who has lived in China) blind themselves to discrimination/violence/oppression in their own society. No society is without its dark side, no state government flawlessly works for the benefit of all of its citizens. We should always reflect on those aspects of our own and others' societies, give one another fresh perspectives, and try to avoid both nationalistic drivel and exoticizing naivete.
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James Reynolds:
Reference: Chinese Human Rights *USA*
I have to say that the The Information Office of the State Council (China) did an good job in their summary about the ongoing problems in the United States and its social issues....And other problems....
~Dennis Junior~
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Bad things happen both in the US and China. I think what the Chinese miss in their report, however, is a distinction between "societal ills" and "poor human rights".
Societal ills: getting shot/stabbed/attacked by a non-government person, e.g. your neighbor or some stranger.
Poor human rights: Getting shot by a police officer or military person.
Societal ills: Drug use and poor mental/physical health services that lead to premature death.
Poor human rights: Companies, inspected by corrupt/lazy/incompetent government officials, that are more or less allowed to produce substandard food/drink.
Societal ills: Racial discrimination (in the judicial system or anywhere).
Poor human rights: Closed trials, defendants with poor or no access to a lawyer, corrupt judges that ignore evidence/testimony, sham trials.
Societal ills: Sensationalist news reporting, one-sided news reporting (but presented as multi-faceted reporting) that leaves the general population knowing plenty about nothing.
Poor human rights: journalists that are threatened, detained or jailed.
There are many problems in the United States (and in "the West") and there are many problems in China. One of the big differences is, though, that MOST of the US's problems are caused by the general public. In China, MOST of the problems are caused by the government. It is acceptable to people in the US (and in "the West") for problems to be caused by the general public but NOT by the government. Why? Because it is relatively easy for one person to take action against another person or even a company. Taking action against the government of a country is almost impossible and likely to get you in jail or murdered. You, an individual, can not fight against an enemy armed with bombs, tanks and aircraft. So when the government violates your rights to be free, to speak freely, to be safe... you have NO recourse.
That is the difference between societal ills and poor human rights.
To be perfectly clear, the difference is: societal ills have the potential to be "fixed" by the people themselves. Poor human rights, perpetuated by a lazy, incompetent, corrupt, malicious or indifferent government do not have much potential to fixed by the people but require a government to respect the people they govern, to listen to the people they govern and to care about the people they govern.
Chinese people, whether you live outside of China (why, I wonder?) or Chinese people that live in China: defending the Chinese government by saying that China is different and has a different history so it should be judged/treated differently ...you are simply making excuses and allowing the people of China to continue being disrespected and abused by the Chinese government. Because China is not likely to be changed from within in a NON-violent way it is up to the rest of the world to pressure the government of China to change. The United States, China's biggest trading partner, is right to speak up regarding China's poor human rights.
Let's be fair, though: the societal ills of the US should not be dismissed in an off-handed manner. They are serious, VERY serious and are not easily solved. While the US has a more open judiciary and government there are still far too many violations of the law by those entrusted to enforce the law or to deliver justice under the law.
I suppose it can be summed up like this: where would you rather live? In the US or China?
I personally would rather not live in either place; I'd choose Canada, Germany, Norway or my current home of Poland. They are all better than the US or China.
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I feel that these human rights reports are a bit antiquated -- the one from the U.S., because the issue has been hackneyed so much that it is difficult to have a frank debate about the issue, and the one from the PRC, because the tone of it harkens back to an era of a totalitarian communist regime intent on spreading their propaganda.
Ultimately, for there to be progress on human rights issues in the PRC, the pressure has to come internally, I believe. The last major effort happened 20 years ago, but since then, the economic progress of the nation has veered domestic attention away from issues of personal liberty. It is probably not in the best interest of the CCP to extend these liberties for fear of disturbances in "social stability and harmony," and when a foreign nation levies this criticism, the CCP can quickly turn it into an issue of nationalism and encroachment.
The PRC's report of the situation in the US mostly focuses on societal problems -- not on "human rights" as it pertains to the UN's universal declaration, which is usually the point of discussion when the issue of "human rights" in China is raised. Perhaps one day things will be improved, but until then I will be happy living in a nation full of personality disorders.
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I believe it is not only the Chinese but for many countries in the middle east, Africa , Asia and South American, Latin American countries... The Western countries, which is meaning the U.S. and Western European countries can just never been trusted.
Within a week Mrs Clinton can come to China and beggin the Chinese gov't to increase sale in US government debs, then after a couple days they can totally change their face again attacking China on human rights records, which is none of their business.
This is really unfamiliar to the Chinese society, because Chinese people talk about trust and loyalty, independently as a person and between countries. It is now just very obvious that no matter how hard China is paying effort to make friends and building a relationship with those countries, it is just all about money what they are looking for.
However, I would have to say that out of all those countries, there is one exceptional - Zarkorski of French. The French do not have a sense what they are doing , they do not read the history, they dont like the business and they are just interest in a greatest actor who dress himself religous - Dalai Lama whom 99% of the worldwide Chinese people do not care of.
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The fact that the government set up the so-called "autonomous region" is so stupid. And, allowing the minorities to have more rights than others are even worse (ethnic minorities can have more than one child is just one of the many privileges I heard). It is "racial discrimination" no less.
There are Chinese in Xinjiang and Chinese in Xizhang. They are not Tibetan and Uighur. And religions, the source of all troubles, should be banned.
Until the government realize the stupid mistakes and correct them, there will be endless separatism and western senseless, vicious attacks.
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It is a pity that a black president in US signifies racial equality and justice in US. I have lived in US for the past four decades. I agree with Chinese government's assessment.
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Today when I am reading BBC's article "US 'cell assault' video released".
It hit me that when this sort of things happen in US. It is protray as a single officer step out of line and nothing is wrong with the system. However, if the same video is a Chinese policeman. It will be protray as govt sanction abuse.
I seriously hope media in the west to be fairer to both side by protray both as system failure. As only in this way, we can help the people.
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What fun. The world bully being goaded by the bully in waiting. At least the rest of us can get on with life while they play.
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The US is a giant hypocrite who abuses human rights around the world. Just look at Abu Graib prison, Guantanamo, Afghanistan, etc. They have no right to criticise China for human rights. China has never invaded any country no tortured any foreign citizens. As for how China is run internally, that's the Chinese people's business. Moreover, human rights in China is not even close to as bad as what the West reports. All the these reporters living in China should clearly KNOW that. Western media is just biased against China for fear and jealously of its growth potential.
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actually,the chinese government is too polite to reply that, US is the bloodiest murderer in the world, their military expenditure is total of the other countries. they have biggest nuclear arsenal,they invade and killed muslim with no slightest mercy.
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USA and Chine changing notes regarding human rights etc. in each others back yard is fine with me.
What they should do is jointly attack Kremlin robber barons about racial discriminations, political killings and the facts that the rulers give a darn about the masses.
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Particularly, I wanna talk about racial discrimination, on which many western countries criticized of China but I think China is doing much better than US. I can say China's policy on ethnic groups is the best in the world. In China, those ethnic groups enjoy much better rights than Han Chinese and no Han Chinese feel unhappy about it and on the contrary support it very much. In fact, 55 ethnic groups live peacefully with Han Chinese except for some wanna break away.(many, I think, are made use of.) However, pls look at blacks(althoug the president is black), and other migrants in US. Can the US government dare say they enjoy the same or better rights than the white? Surely not.
Of course, as a Chinese, I admit US did much better than China in many areas, incuding voting, freedom of speech and the Internet, etc. and will probably continue to be so in many years, but from my point of view, in 30years' opening up, China has improved very much and she just has a long way to go. China has a very very long history of feudalism and she closed her door from outside until 1978, which can be said the beginning of Chinese human rights improvement. Compared with China, US has a very longer history on human rights.
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Year after year the US spawns the same report, so does China. I just can see any meaning of this kind of report. Does the US believe that the Chinese government will change its attitude to these mentioned issues because of its report. As long as China keeps one party's ruling there will be no improvements for these issues. I am sure that the US knows it very well that China will not make slightly concession. So why does the US still publish the report year after year? It is because the US wants to show the world that are standing with high morality. On the other hand the Chinese leadership is fully aware of that the western style of governing system can't make China strong and prosperity. They also know its lack of democracy and personal freedom of speech.
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There is a lot of anti-China compaign coming from the western media. A very good example is when a report referred to a Chinese spokesman as "propaganda official".
So the White House spokesman is also a "
"propaganda official".
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At the macro level of debate between countries such as the US and China, the issue of human rights is more concerned with power struggle among policticians than pertinent to ordinary Chinese and American people.
Politics should not be confused with reality.
Politicians or the policy-making elite are far from representative of their own people.
Before taking sides over 'human rights', it'd better to think first about 'humanity'.
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AnonymousCalifornian:
Most Chinese would agree with you that in the field of human rights, China is worse than the US.
I assure you that Chinese know their own problems and are working hard to improve. Just like what you Americans have been doing.
However, that doesn't mean the west can always point their fingers at us or even worse use "human rights" as a bargaining power for other purposes.
When you think many Chinese criticizing the west are ignorant, do you know most Chinese would think the same but in the opposite direction? Neither side is absolutely wrong but both need to understand and respect each other.
I personally think unlike many other western countries, the US is great and hopefully is where China is developing into. Long way to go and lots to learn though.
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For the US side, it is rather silly to use the 1950's anti-Soviet union propaganda again and again to try to contain China; it has not worked thus far. The more you contain China, the stronger it has become. I think whoever drafted this same "human right report" should be fired from his/her job.
For the China side, it is even more absurd to try to fight back using the same mud slinging technique like two little kids. Why don't you just concentrate of developing your so called "socialism with China characteristics" to show the world what it really means? So far it is only a pompous slogan and we haven’t seen anything that supports the claim with the exception of the ominous food poisons for more than 20 years.
However, I must admit that when these two giants point fingers at each other, their true ugly faces have shown to the entire world. That is the hypocrisy at first degree.
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#62
Fantastic, this expresses the point I was trying to make very eloquently. Well done.
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I assume this is sarcasm from ccpbrain:
We CCP never starve any of our people to death! Ever!!
A tad insensitive to the children and grandchildren of the 30-40 million who died in the great famine of the 1950's/60's don't you think?
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In the last 10 years, which government on earth killed 1 million people?
If China would release some reliable statistics on the death penalty (which are about as reliable as their defence spending figures) then we would be able to put some figures together. Add to these, any protesters in Xinjiang and Tibet who are shot without a mention in the media, then we can compare to two. While we are at it, please give us some figures on infanticide rates.
which government subjected millions of people into permanent disabilities?
That would be yours again. Just add up all those factory workers who lose limbs and eyes without a penny of compensation.
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76. At 1:29pm on 02 Mar 2009, SliceJohn wrote:
'There is a lot of anti-China compaign coming from the western media. A very good example is when a report referred to a Chinese spokesman as "propaganda official".
So the White House spokesman is also a "
"propaganda official".'
Well, Propaganda Department of the Communist Party of China Central Committee does exist and that's how they call themselves in English. I have no problem with that, do you ?
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The only comment Id like to make is in regard to those are mentioning that China has 'daily fatal protests'.
These people have clearly never had first hand experience and rely on the net for any and all information.
According to them I guess China is riot central. The only riots there were were a year ago due to 'foreign forces' @ play.
Try walking down the street in any chinese city, you will feel safer
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When the US is attacked, see how vehemently and passionately its citizens defend it. See Summerfirex and AnonymousCaliforian's posts as an example.
They have not even a single doubt that their country is the best in the world, and that the other countries cannot even compare with it.
Honestly I am touched by their patriotism. But on the other hand I also remembered another blog that James did a while ago in which he asked the question why do Chinese feel proud of their country. It's as if a justification is needed for the Chinese to love their country.
Another funny thing is that the arguments that the Americans use to defend their country are no different from what the Chinese use: they are all basically saying "since this problem exists in your country too, you have no right to criticise us."
If this is the ultimate logic then there is no need to publish either report (and I guess the Chinese government would prefer it this way). But personally I believe it's a good thing that both reports are published because they help both governments to better realize the problems. As the Chinese wisdom goes, when you hear a criticism, "fix the problem if it exists, compliment yourself if it does not." (you ze gai zhi, wu ze jia mian). I guess this should be the attitude for both governments to take.
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Publishing reports is a way to justify one's position.China is such an important economic power and one needs to understand the internal dynamics. However the Chinese leadership is blinkered when it comes to human rights. It is such a pity. China would be an even greater power if it only pays more attention to its human rights record which is still abysmally low.Transparency is so very important as Chinese society evolves technologically and aims at excellence. Moral excellence is a moot point. Humane treatment of its citizens should be a priority! The United States should encourage China to make bold humane changes. Perhaps the United States needs to show more empathy.
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@90
Nor do I. The propaganda department in western countries are called "free press". What a nice name.
The "free press" has been working with their governments and has allowed many wars to take place. what a great achievement. very efficient indeed.
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@85
Very smart to compare a mainly secular developing country's infantcide rates to the one from a developed country. And also the work-related injuries. Are you sure that millions become permanently disabled without a peny's compensation? Where did that come from?
The USA still has death penalty, right? So what's the fuss about? Why does not USA abolish it itself first? Those who rioted or commited severe crimes should not go to prison? Should not get death penalties? But it is ok to kill directly or indirectly those Iraqies who had nothing to do with the people of the USA? In the name of democracy? Human rights? freedom?
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@92
"But on the other hand I also remembered another blog that James did a while ago in which he asked the question why do Chinese feel proud of their country. It's as if a justification is needed for the Chinese to love their country. "
I may be able to help - you are referring to the US stance, where ordinary people are often very patriotic.
But this is the BBC blog -and James is representing Britain.
In general, people in the UK are not overly patriotic, we rarely display the Union Flag etc, and showy or overt displays of patriotism are often seen as embarrassing or even potentially fascistic.
When Gordon Brown visited China, the walk past the honour guard of Red Guards was seen as embarrassing, and Gordon looked awkward. Same whenever the PM visits Russia or the USA - who tend to have (what to most Britains) seems like over-the-top ceremonies.
Rarely do we let our politicans approach this level of pomposity and grandeur - to do so would invite ridicule.
So, in a nutshell, to most Britons, patriotism and thinking your country is 'best' is viewed with suspicion. A generalisation, but representative of the modern Briton I feel.
Therefore James represents our interpretation accurately.
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Ironically, these HR documents seem to highlight how much America and China have in common!
From my own experiences of meeting both Chinese and American people, you are:
a) Noisy
b) Jingoistic
c) Proud
d) Intolerant
e) Obsessed with money
f) Materialistic
Frankly, it's only because the flags are different colours that I can tell the difference!
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Re:96 Bloofs
"Rarely do we let our politicans approach this level of pomposity and grandeur - to do so would invite ridicule"
Yes. but don't forget you have a queen, who and other royal family members approach this level quite often, without inviting any ridicule I assume?
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Sometimes I am asking myself what human right on earth is!To shout aloud to voice your opinions in the streets?To lift a banner saying "Chinese gov't go away"?Ridiculous!I don't see protestors shouting at the meeting or in the street!I don't wanna see strikes paralyz the traffic system!I don't wanna see anyone shrow shoes to our president!You have any problems?.plz try to solve them privately!Keep away form public!
I actually have experienced what democracy is like in Taiwain province.so terrible!you can hardly feel safe living there!Beijing is better.no protest,all people smiling,just a wondeful place to live in!
I'm Chinsese.I also have complained the government for not well-solving some societal loopholes and having many problems like corruption and failure to fulfil their duty!But I know it's not easy to run such a vast country,under a system which is growing!So more time should be given to our government and im so supportive of it!
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To those are not Chinese:
I have no comments on the reports, just want to let you know the reason why Chinese people don't like your criticism.
In our culture, you don't blame others if you have same or other problems. It will make youself look even worse (or stu**der) than those who have the problems. The reaction from Chinese people is just a cultural behave.
the reason we look weird to you, in my opinion, is the differences between cultures. There is a old say in english: don't judge shakespeare if you don't know english.
So, for those who blame Chinese goverment or concern people' live in China, go and check chinese documents (not english ones, they may have bias). I m not saying governmental ones, go on internet check people's comments(our websit won't officially remove comments like BBC here)
and our media do report bad things like bribe, illegal food factory, pollution etc.
Well, you don't know chinese and you don't want to learn, do you? Never mind
Many of the elements that make up the foundation of the modern world originated in China, including paper, gunpowder, credit banking, the compass and paper money(From BBC today). We are not just a billion of brainwashed people, doing what government tells us to do. As to what we can do, you may not believe me, but i would say almost whatever we want to do. I m not a communist, I don't believe in communism.
but i would dedicate myself to my country no matter who is governing it. And I believe that there are many many people like me . Once again, it is not brainwashed, it is history and culture. if u disagree, how long does ur country exist on this planet?
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#94
The press are not responsible for stopping wars from happening. There's no way they can stop anything from happening anyway.
And if you suspect the free press in democracies have been working with their governments to allow wars to happen, I think the first question to ask is where did you get all these war news from in the first place. Perhaps solely from CCTV, Xinhua and the likes since the Western free press never reports anything on wars (so as to 'allow' things to happen?) ?
AND I don't think there's much point to basically plagiarise some data from some US websites, which are open to all American people anyway (not sure if they have access to these in China as well), stick it into a document and call it a report on US human rights.
It's interesting that China is the only country that gives a formal response and issue this half-baked report as an 'retaliation' to the US report, which talks about human rights problem around the world.
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#105 lslove
Well so far people have just been criticising the government in China, not Chinese people in general. Yet I don't understand why some people would take this personally and try to make up some excuses for the ruling party, who's not doing any Chinese person a favour by ignoring human rights.
And just that people can comment on some random Chinese website about some minor government mismanagement doesn't mean the Chinese government hasn't been infringing on human rights. Websites keep getting shut down and dissents keep getting arrested. Telling people none of these has been happening is just playing ostrich.
The so-called four great ancient Chinese invention isn't relevant in this discussion either. Yes China has survived 5000 years and it had been great but CCP has just been around for 80 or so years. People criticise CCP's policies but not Chinese culture in general.
Why does how long everyone else's country has existed on this planet matter in this discussion anyway? If you believe anything that has a longer history is always something superior, by your own logic, I can tell you the Labour Party in the UK is definitely superior to CCP (your ruling party), just for the fact that they have been around since 1900 (109 years of history vs. CCP's 88).
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"...Yet I don't understand why some people would take this personally and try to make up some excuses for the ruling party,..." ---- It still doesn't tell you the ruling party has done a lot of good to the people, the country? Could it possible that you are brainwashed by ...(sorry, can't say it out loud) ?
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There are human right violations in the USA, just as there are in other countries. People just are programmed to not believe such things when they hear them. The government does a good job too of controlling the opinions and thoughts of the local government and administrative positions of the diverse establishments that are used.
The mass media of every country dabble in propaganda and subversion of the truth. This of course doesn't justify human abuse but explains that it is happening. The people are powerless to stop human right violations and even if one or two crimes are exposed there are a horrendous number that are not. Mankind's inhumanity is not limited to only animals but the human species as well.
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Americans invented a lot of games, such as the basket ball. This annual human rights report thing is another one, except some people don't like it.
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#105: I like your explanation, although I had often heard people in China describing certain things such as AIDS as a "foreign problem".
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@ 102
"Yes. but don't forget you have a queen, who and other royal family members approach this level quite often, without inviting any ridicule I assume?"
Actually, yes, The Queen and Royal Family invite large amounts of ridicule, parody and contempt. Ever seen Spitting Image? But in our society this is seen as normal. The modern Brit is often cynical.
Many people would like a republic and can express this view without fear of imprisonment.
However the Royal Family are a bit different because they are figureheads with no real power - we are talking about nationalism and politics here.
The royals are just there to be seen, they have no power - a bit like like your National People's Congress! Ho ho.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7922720.stm
The Royals are not (should not be) politicians.
The modern British character is filled with self-effacement when it comes to our national character.
In general we are not big patriots anymore - well not 'patriots' in the way Chinese or American citizens would describe.
This is where the modern British character diverges from both the Chinese and American character.
But this is a British blog, so let's not compare too much to the USA.
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What I don't like the most is Western countries criticizing China for human rights, when those countries are the one who violated the Chinese people's rights as recent as 100 years ago.
How about Britain forcing opium onto the Chinese people in the late 1800s? There are endless examples of these. How can you come around now and tell us about our human rights problems? Did you come out and formally take responsibility and apologize as the Germans did to the Jews? No.
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@121
In the West we have a saying:
"Two wrongs do not make a right".
Let's move forward and try to have human rights everywhere, now.
If we look to the past every nation is guilty of injustice.
We can't change that.
We can change what we are doing NOW.
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#122
That's a great idea. Why don't you show some goodwill and make the first move.
Kindly leave all foreign lands in which your military has a presence, and encourage your 'special' friend across the Atlantic to close the many hundreds of military bases it occupies around the world (including in your country!).
After this, I'm sure we can then take your concerns for the human rights situation in China more seriously!
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@123
Gladly - unfortunately I'm not the Prime Minister.
Luckily for me, I can lobby my MP and the Prime Minister to suggest that we remove all British military presence from other countries.
Try doing that in China.
You'd have to be mighty brave.
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#124
What is the difference between having the right to lobby a person in authority and for that wish not be listened to or acted upon, and not having the right to lobby a person in authority?
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It's called freedom of speech.
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#126
It's called an illusion.
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When we noted that a Nation take diffrent sort of actions to degrade Humanity: the rest of the world knows well, as well as it remind the other countries the basic lesson of Human rights, indeed it is very astonishing and interesting. Now the world is changing, as well as demand change, as Mr. Obama use this slogan.
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@125 + 127
Without wanting to patronise you, I think you don't really understand what democracy is, or how it works.
If those in authority acted upon everyone's suggestion there would be chaos. I may lobby to withdraw from all other countries, another UK citizen may lobby to invade new countries. Who does the PM listen to?
Therefore politicians in democracies are elected at intervals to gauge general consensus.
So, if I lobby Gordon brown to remove all UK forces from all other countries and he ignores me, then I do not vote for his party, I vote for an alternate party.
Or I could even try setting up a pressure group or rival political party.
You call this an illusion - look at America. They have kicked out George W - they are withdrawing from Iraq.
Democracy in action.
I llike to use the example of devolution, which is very alien to many Chinese posting here.
We allowed Wales and Scotland to set up their own elected assemblies. The person currently in charge of the Scottish Parliament is a man who would like Scotland to become independent from the UK and leads a party calling for that. Amazing, huh? How come there isn't chaos? Through elections.
Will independence for Scotland happen? Who knows, but they have the right to campaign in this way - and maybe they will get their way - but it can take time.
Things take time in democracies. Perhaps too much time, but the process of change can happen through people power.
Doesn't every human being, British or Chinese, deserve to have their say, beijing2008? Or should a farmer in Gansu Province just keep his mouth shut because he is a peasant and not a member of the Party?
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#131
"Therefore politicians in democracies are elected at intervals to gauge general consensus."
They are elected based on a manifesto, on policies that they try to sell to voters. Labour's manifesto promised a vote on the EU Referendum - nobody got to vote.
Labour's manifesto did not mention having a military adventure in another country - yet that happened, even against a ferocious backdrop of public opinion.
Of course everybody deserves to have their say. But I doubt "the farmer in Gansu province" will be at all affected whether Party X or Party Y is in power.
What is more important for China at this stage is not a multi-party system. That can, and should, come later. Much more important is greater freedom of the press and judicial independence.
But thanks for your concern.
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Something about two wrongs not making a right.
The chinese response is a little petulant for the government of a world power, don't you think. The US as ever annoyingly self-righteous. (I know, it takes one to know one...)
# 62 Well said
meanwhile people are being abused, tortured and killed, no-one above has denied that, no-one has tried to justify it either, thankfully.
So childish politics aside, what do we do about it folks? Ah yes, we issue a report.
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Comparing the US to China, or perhaps more accurately China to Western Democracies seems to me to be fundamentally flawed from the outset.
Consider the raw logistics of governmental policy anyways; the larger the country, the harder it will be to have a true democratic society. Three people coming to a consensus is hard enough. Getting a billion plus to come to a consensus is honestly infeasible. I mean hell, look at the US. We have under three hundred million and we can barely agree on anything (All the more beautiful that we really don't have to; you don't like it, you can express that.. just as citizens can do in far more countries than just the US..).
My point is that comparing a style of government that works, with its own flaws, for a nation of three hundred million to that of one for a nation three times its size isn't really a valid comparison to begin with. The very nature of China, by virtue of land mass, population size, and of course, historical factors, inherently makes this comparison exceedingly difficult to do.
Round peg, square hole.
Instead of arguing over the actual structure of the government, the issue should be the morals and values embodied by that government and the people it represents. What we really need to do is establish an understanding what the people under that government consider to be a sufficient standard of living; the government should do what is necessary to ensure that their citizens have the ability to achieve this standard.
Our standard in the US is invariably going to be different than others because the fundamental aspects of living day to day life in the US are different than those in China. You don't think our standards would be vastly different here at home if our population was three times the size it is now? Seriously conceptualize 600 million more people to account for in the process and tell me it doesn't alter your perceptions just a little bit.
A majority of the posts in here have been contentious bits and pieces about the differences in our countries, so it only surprises me more that people haven't yet realized we are actually different (Sweet mercy, people are different? Who'd have thought that?) and therefore our systems and policies aren't able to just be transposed onto another nation's population.
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