Chinese charm
Before I came to China, I tried to learn a bit about Chinese etiquette. The one thing I remember learning is this: when it comes to clinking wine glasses at a formal reception, it's polite to make sure that the rim of your glass is lower than that of the person you're clinking with.
The other day I was at a Chinese new year reception hosted by the state broadcaster, CCTV. At toasting time, the CCTV executives fanned across the room with their wine glasses held out at about waist level - making it impossible for any of us to get our glasses lower than theirs. They won the politeness battle.
But don't confuse etiquette with a lack of ambition. This year CCTV is planning to open Russian and Arabic language channels. Reports also say that the state-run news agency Xinhua has plans to start up its own international news channel. China is determined to project its own image and perspective as far as it can.
So this country's image-makers may be interested in the results of an opinion poll conducted for the BBC World Service. The poll suggests that global attitudes towards China - and Russia - are worse than they were a year ago (although clearly there are a huge number of caveats to throw at a single poll which takes broad conclusions from a limited number of interviews - as I'm sure many of you will be keen to tell me).
But how the world sees China and how China sees the world matter quite a bit. An American writer, Joshua Kurlantzick, goes through some of China's image-making efforts in his book, "Charm Offensive: How China's Soft Power is Transforming the World".
The writer lists the things that China's done in order to win friends around the world: it's ended border disputes with its neighbours; it plays an active part in global institutions such as the UN and the World Trade Organization; it doesn't intervene unilaterally in other countries' internal wars (and it stopped funding Maoist-style revolutions a long time ago). Mr Kurlantzick also argues that China's model of authoritarian capitalism provides a tempting alternative to governments unsure of the benefits of Western-style democracy.
The Chinese government has come up with a phrase to explain what it's doing and why no one need worry: "Heping Jueqi" - Peaceful Rise.
Have China's efforts won you over?
I’m 
© 2012~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
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A prevailing opinion amongst Chinese nationals (particularly those abroad) is that China 'will succeed'. I've never quite understood at what point this 'success' occurs. Is it when GDP overtakes that of the US? Is it when you are holding those big street parties for Taiwan's 'reunification' (enjoy them while you can as you'll be facing Taiwainese-separatist terrorism on a scale which make the Ughuirs and Tibetans look like child's play)? Is it when you land on the moon in 2020? You can see from those in the West that prosperity doesn't bring happiness (quite the opposite), so what is it you are looking for?
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Just saw the bbc news that saying negative view of china is rise. I think after this year's event. China did very well to keep the rating stable. But I have a question in my mind. The survey said 21 countries participate in the poll, but didn’t give an break down of how many ppl in each country participate in the survey. If the majority of ppl participate are from west and few ppl from other country participate. The survey is biased.
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I used to be a western-style democracy lover. Well, I am still are but I have become more realistic. China's model is working although we cannot deny it has a lot of drawbacks.
After the Tibet riot in early 2008, Chinese have realised that their voices need to be heard by the rest of the world. The expansions of CCTV and XINHUA are definitely woth doing and it will work. China is not going to change your belief about democracy but wants you to see China with a view that China is developing on the right direction.
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I think Daxiongmao has a point here. Even the CCP has only focussed on the materialist success when they celebrate their 30 years of 'reform and open' policy. There is doubt how much progress they have made in terms of how much more fairness and freedom people now enjoy compared with 30 years ago.
Jiang Zhe Ming once said human rights means the right to feed yourself (and nothing more). I wonder whether this is enough to keep all Chinese people happy. Apparently some think being able to feed themselves is already good enough and it is actually a cause to celebrate (I'm not talking about situations in some 3rd world countries where people are still struggling to find enough food).
On CCTV international version, I don't think many will be interested until CCP loosens its tight media control e.g. Blocking websites, blacking out 'un-harmonious' live footages, forcing local media to use Xinhua's reports on 'sensitive' issues.
Could perhaps put more exclusive Chinese politics news on CCTV international version though, people can't get that anywhere else.
But they should not expect they can brainwash people like at home. Since most people have access to differnt views and news sources anywhere else in the world.
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heyone,
Firstly, it's Jiang ze min, not zhe ming, most importantly, what he said was feed people well is the foundation of basic human right!
Please do not mislead readers as some of media from west do.
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I think it was Winston Churchill that said "Democracy may not be perfect but it is the best we have found so far".
This is certianly the opinion of the Westregarding its Liberal Democracy and Human Rights models. My answer to them is that it does not mean that we should stop looking does it!
China seems to be devleoping its own new models and I would rather see the result than try and strangle it birth for the sake of models which are so very wanting.
Given the recent experience of the Chinese Economic Model over that of the West, we should be asking if Western Democracy and Human RIghts are similarly flawed and the Chinese will prove far more fit for purpose.
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i don't think China is a trouble-maker in the world. China wasn't, isn't and will not be a trouble-maker for the world.
I can't understand why people from abroad would consider China as a negative role in the wolrd.
To comment Tibet, you should know the history of Tibet and it's history in China. you should know what did Dalailama do in the past. why did he run out of Tibet and build up an exile goverment? Not just being brainwashed by the western media. something like, Tibet is the 'Shangri-la', it is the symbol of pureness or Heaven on earth.
Dalailama is the spiritual leader of Tibetans. He is the only person who truely loves, thinks and speaks for the Tibetans. And Tibet are a dead place, people there are in jail. if it is the truth, the Chinese people will not be with the goverment.
i sincerely invite you to Tibet and to see with your own eyes. To prove it, to persuade yourself.
you should also know policies that Chinese goverment giving to the ethnic minorities in China are much better than the Han Chinese. But the Han Chinese never complain, instead, they support them because they are comprehensive and they think minorities are disadvantaged people.
i think that's one of reasons why the CCTV is trying to set up a new international channel to tell the world what we are doing. not just being biased by some media in colored glasses.
so, the best way to know each other is to communiate.
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"The Chinese government has come up with a phrase to explain what it's doing and why no one need worry: "Heping Jueqi" - Peaceful Rise."
-Let's see how long China keeps to the Heping Jueqi doctrine when the economy goes south and the CCP have to go back to relying on nationalism to stay in power....
Next stop, Taiwan.
Hope it doesn't come to that, but it could easily happen.
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James, do you think you are rambling because only the last paragraph has something to do with so called 'charm'.
Looking back, how did these charm come from? Isn't it from both secretly giving up part of its territory to please its neighbors and purposefully sending money to nations for exchange of needed surport? Is there any moral value that can be acceptable worldwide?
Chinese people aren't less great than any other nation. there are a lot of very touching people in contemporary China but it is so hard to spread their gold-like personality because some of them have died of persecution such as Zhang zhixin in the 1960s, who criticised Mao zedong, the new emperor of the PRChina, was killed by throat cut, to some extent, that is very similar to what happened on Copernicus who tells the truth of the movement of the earth and the stars at the expense of life. Now we can freely publicise Copernicus in Europe where he was sentenced to death, however, no media are bold to mention Mrs Zhang in China. How could CCTV attract international eyes in the way where truth is baned.
When a robber show money to a prostitute, that is sort of charm but not friendship. Having thought China's average GDP is still poor, those China's leaders are real robbers when they slap huge money to either other countries or for corruption.
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to Daxiongmao,
We are living on a diverse planet, people are different, beliefs are different, you never understand us suggests you are different from us.
Different people live together as neighbors only if mutual respect occurs. So the first thing that we are saying we will succeed is we will bring the world the faith of mutual respect and the respect of world's diversity.
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These global polls always overstate European and, to a slightly lesser extent, Muslim views of the rest of the world.
The US has long realized that any entity which is large and powerful will be feared and resented by smaller and weaker European and Muslim nations, no matter how rational or irrational those fears and resentments. China and Russia are now discovering this as well.
India, which is on the cusp of joining these three as another global giant, is learning the same lesson -- many European countries have shown a dramatic (15-20%) increase in negative ratings of India as well. For what reason exactly?
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This part of the world sees China as a lot of violent, unauthorised guards assaulting the citizens of other nations exercising their lawful right to protest around the Olympic Torch. While that seems like a small incident, the prevailing imagery shows that this is a symbol of the way the Chinese can think - "we are doing soemthing good, it is not possible for you to object to us", and having no way of responding to an objection. I'm having a small bet with myself that the comments following this blog posting will prove my point...
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I agree up to a point with Heyond.
we should have more rights.
The goverment can't block some sensitive websites only if they will not sabotage our national security. And there should be more freedom for the media. They should expose dark sides concerning the goverment.
But, i keep thinking china is changing every day. and it's going toward the right direction. And i don't think the universal suffrage fits us now. it takes time to prove that. luckily, we have Taiwan , Hongkong and Macao. I think they are the constructive force for a perfect China. (中华民族)
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We in the UK run on the rights on the individual which is fair, but we have strayed too far. With anti-social behavioural culture and Knife crime on the rise how can we say that our liberalism works?
The latest case of Thatcher and Clarkson are a different example. Imagine it James, your light-hearted remarks may one day be censored by the BBC because of the few!
The UK is becoming more antisocial and uncontrollable, yet more of a police state and restrictive. These contradictions are baffling where checks and control are emphasised by the individual in the name of human rights and in some cases weak political correctness.
Where is common sense? The BBC is owned by the taxpayer in a democratic society. It does not work on a majority vote, but it aims to protect the minority view which may be non-constructive.
Chinese society is more the opposite and equally as problematic. We need to meet in the middle.
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To Daxiongmao:
What success means to China is an interesting question. As a Chinese living overseas, here are some of the indicators that I share with many others. I don't mean to generalize in any way. I only represent my own views.
China will succeed when:
1. Its GDP accounts for approximately 1/3 of that of the whole world. This essentially regains China's economic status of Ming and Qing dynasties.
2. Scientific and technological innovations dominate the world in terms of journal publications, patent registrations, and high-tech products.
3. Reunification with Taiwan. Best hope is to also reunify with Outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria, and various northern territories that have been lost to Russia.
That would be it.
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No. One word - TIBET
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If western medias can do bit more homework, giving bit more broad and fair report about China and Chinese people, i believe more people would have a better understanding about China. Currently, the report on China is very imbalanced, if you asked me what i learned from the report about China, the keywords are "Tibet" "Evil" "human rights" "pullution", it is very unfair for the medias to limit the information and knowledge about China to western readers.
With Chinese readers, because everyone knows that the state controlled media is biased, so everyone seeks meaning to find true information, but for Western readers, because people believe there's a free media, so people can become lazy and be more easily manipulated.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The West will always do anything to oppose the rise of another powerful nation. This is simply owing to their sense of insecurity: they think that others will treat them as badly as they have treated others throughout their history.
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Traditional arrogance and ignorance:
The opinion poll shows that the popularity of China is Europe (mainly EU countries such as UK, France, Germany ...), but in Africa and Latin America the popularity is rising. How can BBC conclude that China image is down only by the data in Europe?
There is no surprise that with the traditional western media's selective report about China, it would be very difficult for any country to get high popularity in Europe.
I would be interested in how EU countries' image are abroad. BBC should give a poll about this as well.
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To nxkiddo,
Could your points be paraphrased as follows?
1. Rolling back time to the 'glory days'- a bit like if I, as a UK citizen, wanted to go back to Victorian times (I wouldn't personally, by the way, that would be awful).
2. China actually being a country that can innovate instead of producing fake copies.
3. Reunify = invade?
Have I mis-interpreted anything?
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#1 Daxiongmao
China would consider itself a success if it solves its most pressing problems - poverty, unemployment, income disparity, corruption, and environmental degradation.
I have never heard any Chinese leader saying overtaking America's GDP or landing a Chinese on the moon is an indication of China's success.
The people of mainland China and Taiwan are mostly Han Chinese. They have the same culture and religions. Their economies are moving closer everyday. Politics is the only thing which seaprates the two sides, but it's a matter of time it'll be resolved peacefully.
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China has made every effort to display her desire to play a bigger role in the internation arena in recent years. Her efforts are highly commendable. We want a stable,friendly and peaceful China to engage the world in both economic and non economic domains. This will in turn contribute to the long-term stability and prosperity of the world. This is not to our advantage to have an isolated and weak China like North Korea who is hostile to the world and generate an enormous fear and suspicion among the countries. Keep up the good work China!
As for the survey China has been given a negative rating. I would like to question who are those people being surveyed? Have they ever travelled to China before? how much they know about China? If I have never been to Europe and know nothing about Europe, my view on Europe will not
be objective and credible.
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Sampanviking:
What Winston Churchill actually said was this:
"Democracy is the worst possible system of government. Except, of course, for all the others."
So maybe you should stop looking.
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If anything the new opinion poll shows off the good work done by James and others - Well done James, it seems your persistent negative report on China has proven effected in amongst your western viewers.
The other day I was talking to a local kid in London, asked him what he know about China, three things he said: Communist, Tibet, and Fake products. Thumbs up for the western media for portraying an effective stereo type on China. I think this makes the Western citizen feel good about themselves, which in turn will keep their government in power. Check and check in James' world.
But for more open minded, China is of course much bigger than the three things the poor kid was let to know by the western media. Especially during what I would say the turning point of the world Economy. The world needs China more than ever and in the same token China needs the world.
Knowing only three things about China, I'd say it's your loss. China opens an welcoming hand to the world, and if you don't clinch it, others will. Because after all, the world is much bigger than this little island off the coast of Europe.
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These global polls always overstate European and, to a slightly lesser extent, Muslim views of the rest of the world.
Odd the poll only asked three Muslim and five European countries (8 out of a total of 26) that doesn't explain the full result.
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Dear YamadaHanako,
I agree with you that people should get their facts right before declaring them to the rest of the world.
However, whilst Western Media may have it's biases, it's much more free than the Chinese media to express its views. The media here in China is really just a mouth piece for the government and your opinion by definition is also biased. In giving your opinion you show your own bias against Western media. It's still bias.
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What we are all reading is a blog from a BBC employee, impartiality is what the BBC wants to be known for but we know that it has never been impartial. It is used to promote the British Government's Agenda. The views of the British with regards to China haven't changed much from since the turn of the last century, where Britain and other European countries have exerted their military and political influences on the then weak China. They saw an opportunity and they seize it. This really is the Chinese fault for putting ourselves in such a vulnerable position, and to top it all we were very divided as a nation. Along came Mao, in the 1940's he has unified China once again, but not Taiwan, HK and Macau. Tibet was seen by the West even then as a strategic location where they can set up a base to curb the expansion of Communist China and Communist Russia, thus the CIA began to arm the Tibetans, and encourage dissent within the Tibetans. Britain played an important part because India, part of the British Empire, became a conduit for the CIA and British Intelligence to arm the separatist. Thus the uprising in the 1950's by the Tibetans. China under Mao was brutal, and any dissent was not tolerated, because of China's immense territory, this was the only way to ensure that such incidence does not occur else where within China. The Cultural Revolution created a generation of Chinese with questionable morality and values, and of course this generation still prevails today. The ruling elite of China recognise this even to this day. Until we can reconcile our moral values with the best part of Asia, let alone the West, I believe the ruling Elite in China will stifle Western Broadcasters and Publications that can and will potentially influence the current Chinese generation. Thus sometimes the nationalist card is played by the ruling Elite. Of course this course of action does not conform to perceived modern Western values. Thus the need for the West to demonise the Chinese ruling Elite. The West wants nothing better than to have descent in China, but we cannot see that, because not all Western Government is supportive of China's Rise both in economic and military terms. The Wealth of the West is built on the backs of the poor, guess what? the Chinese were one of the poor. What most Chinese do not realise is that failure in economy and the failure in world political scene is not an option for China and it's people. The Dragon is awake, it will need to feed and fuel it's thirst for knowledge, wealth and all that is associated that will bring 19th Century China into 21st Century China. Why I said 19th Century China, the development of Beijing, Shanghai, etc. are just a small part of China, rural China needs to be developed too. Nationalistic fervour will not help China, in fact it will probably set us back. We need to observe, learn and adapt. The world in the 21st Century will be a very different place, Governments of the West knows that. They cannot borrow to consume indefinitely, and pass the debt to future generations, because this existence is un-sustainable with the present economic development in the West, especially the UK and USA. China and Chinese do not borrow to consume, at least not on the levels of their European and American counterparts. So breaking down and demonising China is one way to ensure that the Chinese do not rise above the rest of the world. The Chinese people and culture will prevail, it has for the past few millennium, the West is on another path. Do not be fooled by the dis-ingenuous intentions of the West. All eyes are on China because China have the largest foreign reserves. You cannot get out of a debt by creating more debt. Only through hard work and understanding of ourselves and our weaknesses will we rise above the rest. Otherwise China will always play second fiddle to the West. The Chinese culture have always tried to protect what they hold dear to them, look at the Great Wall, the Great Wall of the 21st Century will be the use and adaptation of International Law and Treaties, backed up by Military power to ensure that China's interest is protected. China needs to have Global reach in Military to protect Chinese economic interest. We do not need an invincible army but one that will deliver the necessary encouragement to those that fail to see China's economic interests are protected. China have many friends in the East, we should build on that, as I said, the West is on a different path, eventually these paths will meet, and when it does, we will need to ensure that our Military can deliver the right deterrent. World Resources are getting scarce, and we must secure all we can. Intellectual rights must be protected, otherwise it will be a free for all, but we must also learn to respect each others needs with little or no conflict. Historically the West will seize what it can and run. Look at Iraq, they have failed to seize the oil fields, it is not about WMD or Saddam. In the process, they have turned Iraq into Hell on Earth. We will need to safe guard ourselves and our economic interest against that. The country that will rise above the rest is one that will be able to protect it's economic interest through the use of Military Power and maintain that Military Power. New logistics will need to be developed to ensure this Military projection. The days of sending traditional warships and planes to far distant lands are numbered. New battle techniques will need to be developed. WMD is definitely a no go.
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Some haven't read the survey properly, people from a number of countries were interviewed.
Economically and in terms of international diplomacy, I personally am very impressed with China. Grade A+
Socially and culturally however, the government has done little. Most harmful to the country's image is the fact that there are individuals wrongly imprisoned for something they have said or written. While personal freedoms are most certainly better than they used to be, I would say that in this area: Grade D.
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When hard-power is not easy (and harmful to itself) to contain, containing China's soft power problably is the only way to do.
The poll proved Western media&government has been successfully at that front. Well done James!
But China should not care too much how the West look at China, just do what's good to the country and its people. One day when how China look at the West will be consdiered by the Western government/media, then they will change their views on China auomatically.
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1) The BBC global opinions are from 21 countries which haven't been clarified by BBC yet.
2) I had knew the plan of Xin Hua agency on internet before BBC declosed their result
3) it is true that our China need to improve on too many areas beside image which are seen by others only
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I read the opinion poll. I noticed that China's image is good in most countries (more positve than negative views), except in Western countries (Europe, Canada and US), Japan and the Philippines. The last two countries countries. So, China's image is actually not bad. Instead of worrying about China's global image, we should instead study, why people in the West don't like China.
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Would you trust a person if it can not take care of him/herself?
Would you trust China internationally if she can not look after the basic rights of its citizens?
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I just wonder which countries interviewees come from? If the survey was conducted in Africa countryies, I guess it would be another fresh and inspiring results.
You know what this sort of survey is really ridiculous. Chinese people love making friends from the world, but those arrogant europeans/westerners always look China in a condescending manner. So, you can SELF-COMFORT yourselves with this nonsense survey.
China is not perfect like no one is perfect, but she is on the right way of perfecting.
anyway, who cares about your opinion~~
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"One day when how China look at the West will be consdiered by the Western government/media, then they will change their views on China auomatically".
It seems as if all Chinese-educated people are programmed to believe that China will become the world's most powerful nation. Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return. You haven't even got enough water for those people in the north.
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I have been living in the UK for nearly ten years. As a Chinese, I have always been interested in what common people in this part of the world think about China politically. It seems to me that when comes to human rights debate, most of my British friends believe that Tibet should be an independent country. I simply cannot agree or disagree with them, as it is not a black-or-white discussion. However, what I find disappointing is that nearly all my British friends who believe in free-Tibet also believe that Tibet used to be a peaceful, isolated, and spiritual place until China’s “invasion”; few of them know the fact that long before China was founded in 1949, Tibet was once invaded by the UK (BBC used the words such as British Military, expedition, force etc on the Tibet Timeline page.) in 1904 and had always been disturbed by the West (you can find many historical references on the internet if you’d like to double check).
It makes me think that whether all my dear British friends are simply ignorance, which is very unlikely as, many of them are very well educated, open-minded, and intelligent young adults; or the so-called free-media is not willing to provide them with integrated, continuous history which cutting and pasting.
I have also come to realise after living and working in this country for many years, that the common image of Chinese Police and Chinese government are extremely negative. Interestingly, I took my British fiancé to Beijing last year for the first time, he surprisingly found that Chinese police are very friendly and helpful, he also said that it is much safer to walk around Beijing at night on his own than doing so in London!
I think China has its charm, which can only be seen by those who are truly willing to accept its difference without prejudice. Of course accepting the difference does not simply equal to stop questioning the problems in the system.
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Western democracy is good tool to keep poor countries fighting amount themself.
It's good to divide and control them :)
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#1 Daxiongmao #4 hey one,
Thanks for your worry for us. Since we know Chinese so well, we know that Chinese in Taiwan (those you called Taiwanese) won’t blow themselves up if the two sides get a reunion. Throughout history, it was people from the mainland that blew up themselves to free people from Taiwan from foreign occupation, Portuguese, Japanese.
Plus, there were so many bloody unification and separation events throughout Chinese history (Pretty much like that of the GREAT BRITAIN though). We are already used to it and nobody would blow up themselves in order to get into paradise.
You know that most Chinese nationals (particularly those abroad) have the faith that China will succeed. I would say, most Chinese at least hope that China will succeed. However, there are so many people (including some of China’s citizens) want China to fail and fall. They are waiting for the moment of triumph and they are finally able to say: “I told you to follow democracy. This is the only way. Your system is not going to work”. I would not hold my breath though.
As far as China’s images goes, there are people working very hard to damage it, they are called the mainstream media cooperated by dissidents (This relationship, as we call it in Chinese, Lang Bei Wei Jian). This is why the western media and Chinese dissidents are so unpopular among Chinese in china and overseas.
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Dear julianrocks,
I am sorry I am not sure what you are trying so say.
Are you saying that my previous words about some of western media mislead readers is biased? Check your own words, you also admit that "Western Media may have it's biases ", so what's wrong with my ?
or are you saying western media is much more free than Chinese media ? I don't know if you read chinese and how would you (what sources you base on) judge chinese media, let's put this aside for now. and I think people should learn at least something from the ongoing financial crisis, lack of effective supervision let those greedy bankers do whatever they want.
So there is no absolute freedom in this world, absolute freedom only causes chaos. As people's freedom of speech was written in the China's Constitution, Chinese nationals will make sure of this by their own will and pace.
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Oechsle, I couldn't agree more with you.
"I think China has its charm, which can only be seen by those who are truly willing to accept its difference without prejudice"
what a lovely words! this planet is diverse, the diversity makes this planet so charming.
however, you do see people like Senlin, "Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return. You haven't even got enough water for those people in the north."
Everyone has plombles, a snow easily makes a whole nation paralysed and how could you laugh at others ??
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@38
When was the last time two western democracies fought each other?
It's been quite a while.
Something that can not be said about non democratic regimes which keep on fighting each other, and occassionally themselves.
So it seems to me that it is non-western non-democracy that is a good tool to keep countries fighting.
As for the chinese charm offensive: it's bound to fail to a certain extent in Europe. We're all a bunch of cynics here, meaning that we know that someday the gloves will come off and that China will be no different than all the other empires: bullying and warmongering.
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#36: "It seems as if all Chinese-educated people are programmed to believe that China will become the world's most powerful nation."
Why not? What did you expect? Why not be optimistic? The link between "China" and "superpower" has been used quite often in the western media, no?
"Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return."
Please do me a favour and lets not drag out the history books. China has always been a peaceful country. The Confucian values that underlie Chinese society is harmony (the "he" in hepingjueqi). (I hate compare, but) contrast the Chinese military history to that any other nation: UK, Germany, Japan, USA, India yada yada... which country has its hands clean? I understand that you're pointing the finger at Tibet (and Taiwan), but please do not merge the 5000 years of Chinese history with that of the last 50 years. And please regard the Chinese people and Chinese government as separate entities. I morn for the loss of traditional values in modern China and make no excuse for the brutal and unjust actions by the usurpers of today.
On another note, Senlin, I read some of your other posts where you talked about racism in China. I'm sincerely sorry of your experiences and hope you can see beyond it all. I can also assure you that I've had more than my fair share of racial abuse hurled at me when I moved to Manchester at 10 years old.
"Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return. You haven't even got enough water for those people in the north. "
This sounds rather spiteful. The draught in Northern China is secondary to a natural disaster. Not karma.
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James,
Are you trying to pitch a protential CCTV job with your familiarity with Chinese etiquette story? It could be attempting since CCTV International might double your current salary and send you back to London, or Iraq...
About the poll thing, never trust a poll. I can design a poll, which is statictically reliable, to make you, James Renalds, the most desired journalist of whole BBC, if you pay me for this. It all depends on some reasonable assumptions on how to conduct that poll.
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bylooker: Taiwan was inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines before Han Chinese started to occupy their island. Why does Japanese and Portugese occupation count as foreign, but Han Chinese not? Please don't raise Northern Ireland and native American Indians, I just want to know why Taiwan should count as Chinese territory (I'm talking pre-1949 here) - and if so, is this not colonisation?
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West must demonize China to keep China down. Create conflict between Chinese and Taiwanese, Chinese and Tibetans...
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It's difficult for China to improve its image when there's a sense of xenophobia about the country. Any attempts to correct the situation are met with cries of brainwashing, propaganda, etc. etc. which means that for every exaggeration of the worst of China there lacks a balancing view (or one that people would hear).
It's too easy to ignore and dismiss the progress that China makes, whilst it's failures and perceived failures (i.e. simply following a different path to western civilization) are highlighted again. It doesn't surprise me that in a big year like 2008, China's image has dropped. My opinion is that China shouldn't concern itself with outside perception and should simply do what it does to improve as it has done.
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@ 29 Jackal8880_3
Well said, dude!
You mentioned that the West failed to gain control of Iraq oil fields. You might want to check it again: Exxon Mobile, BP, Shell, Total and Chevron ARE THERE on the field.
Millitary deterence power is the ultimate guerantee of any recession. Imagine without the most advanced millitary technologies and the global reach of the its army, US would have been reduced to a thrid world country within half a year, if China calls her debts now.
Historically (pre-17th century), China's key millitary technologies were decades, if not centuries, ahead of the West. China must keep up her pace to advance in this field.
What disturbs me is that Chinese CCP ruling elite might just sell out Chinese peoples' financial wealth to US and European powers, via both keep buying the massive worthless new US govt T notes and keep bailing out failed EU politicians with thick checkbooks, in exchange for thier tacit support that CCP would hold monoply power in China.
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Read Jean Gimmpel's End of the Future.
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To Col_Man
My response:
"1. Rolling back time to the 'glory days' "
Not exactly. 1/3 of the world's GDP for 1/5 of the world's population means only an above-average living standard. What matters more may be the aggregate economic power that the Chinese have been used to, consciously or not, over many dynasties.
"2. China actually being a country that can innovate instead of producing fake copies."
1) For most othe human history, China's science and technology led the world. It began to fall back when Europe started industralization. The objective for success is to reinvigorate the capabilities for innovation to catch up.
2) Fake copies or not are only rhetorical. Intellectual properties laws protect the innovator, but it also means keep the power with the innovator, making others difficult to catch up. Reverse-enginnering (copycat, in your words) is arguably the best way to learn and catch up.
3. Reunify = invade?
China's maps evolved over many centuries. The present is not the end of history. Mongolia has only been out for sixty years. Let's see what happens.
If we happened to be born in the era of "Wu Dai Shi Guo" (Five dynasties and ten states), when China was broken into 10 counntries for more than 100 years, we might have believed this was it!
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Soft power is power of persuasion as opposed to coercive power, due to a lack of democracy, corruption and inequality it will be a difficult task to promote the China 'alternative' in western democratic countries. By beginning Russian and Arabic language broadcasts though China may become more attractive in authoritarian and semi-authoritarian parts of the world.
The big problem with western perceptions of China is that western people simply abhor authoritarian government for the most part. I am unlikely to favor the opinion of a country whose politics and society I see as more screwed up than my own countries and in this area of soft power China is restricting it's own ability through the limits it imposes on freedom.
There must come a time when the CCP has taken China as far along the road of development as they can and release their grip on control. I think a peaceful rise needs to include a peaceful transition to democracy.
However, a Chinese international news channel would be very interesting and probably a very wise move.
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#1, Daxiongmao,
I will try to answer your question.
Success occurs when every chinese can live in happiness and freedom, when no one ever has to worry about food, education, medical care, or housing.
Success occurs when every Chinese can be treated equally and respectfully by others, regardless of his fortune, social class, parentage or origin.
Success occurs when every Chinese can walk out anywhere in the world with his head up, when no one ever has to hide in a container for a month just to get a chance to wash dishes or wipe floor in a foreign land.
Success occurs when China not only exports goods but also culture and values, when the rest of the world start looking at this country with no prejudice nor arrogance but understanding and respect.
Success occurs when China becomes a friend with every other country, and takes its responsibility to make this world a better place to live.
we will not stop working until that day comes.
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#37
I'm British and do know about those historical points you raise. I know about Younghusband's invasion and killing of hundreds of Tibetans (..and maybe if Tibet had been part of the British Empire we could have protected it for a while like with Hong Kong - the lesser of two evils perhaps).
Tibet was, prior to Buddhism, quite a warrior-oriented culture which had a lot of military victories over the Middle Kingdom.
This knowledge of history doesn't change my opinion- I still believe in an independent Tibet - fundamentally we need to look at what is happening now.
Even if Tibet was consistently ruled by China (which it wasn't as well know) - even if Tibet was made up entirely of Han - if Tibetans want to leave China they should be allowed to do so. This concept is very alien to most Chinese. Look at the UK - it's quite possible Scotland will leave our Union in the next few years - but we won't be sending in the tanks when they do.
As others have mentioned - Mongolia once ruled over all of China, but China is now independent. So what's good for the Han isn't necessarily so good for the Tibetans, huh?
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To Senlin
Who are you? You just post in here, looks like you are really interested in China.
>It seems as if all Chinese-educated people are programmed to believe that China will become the world's most powerful nation. Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return.
Indeed, China may not get there in this generation, but Britian will never be able to get there again unless the disappearance of this universal. China has the ambitions to be most powerful country, this is a good thing, you will never reach there if you don't even have the ambitions.
China has no tradition of invading other countries in its long history. If you learn a little Chinese history, you should know that.
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James:
[Have China's efforts won you over? ]
I think that they have won me over regarding there charm offensive....
~Dennis Junior~
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China is not a troublemaker. The troublemakers are countries and citizens of those countries that throw mindless abuse and insults at China, and persistently referring to the past. The same people that attempt to stop China growing. The same people that attempt to take parts of China away from itself. China will never fail, no matter how hard the west wants it to.
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Heck with the result! People have been brainwashed by the biggest propaganda machine in the world: the Western Media.
When the West and its friends get away with murder, phonys and naive people turn every rock to look for dirt in China then demonize them without giving them the chance to defend themselves!
The day they cried as if the sky was falling that that girl was lip-singing in the Olympic, India (considered a friend of the West), murdered 15 Muslim protestors in Kashmir. Of course, being the hypocrites they are, the Western media never made a big news of it! Do not mention they turn a blind eye to that disfunctioned "democracy" with unimaginable social and political problems.
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Please get off your high horse!
Your theory of "authoritarian capitalism" is alive and well in the west. So what is the benefit od western style democracy brought to the impoverish countries? Even in USA don't begin to think for one moment many people particularly the poor, the blacks, none whites actually reap any real benefits. Western style democracy in its western media spun hyperthical concept only assumed successful in countries with small population, no defence spending, overly rich natural resources that they can export elsewhere, no manufacturing base, people dont need to go to work or work very limited hours each week, well funded welfare system. Countries in Scandinavia fits the model.
Many countries whose economies are now failing ecognise they must change and adapt and have looked upon China as a model. China was the first country in the world to release hundreds of billions to stimulate the economy in the current worldwide economic downturn and paved the way for other countries to follow. If the Chinese havent done it and instead withdrew the $2 trillion it has in its US bonds western civilisation would have collapsed in a matter of days.
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Yes albeit reluctantly... The people of China are indeed wonderful; their charm comes not from the clinking of the glasses (see article) but from their heart. I am not the biggest fan of the government, but then I do respect all of its accomplishments in light of the major failures of my own gov't (USA). I am currently living and working in China and each day I find myself more in love with it. BUT I don't like its food! Ha! Am I a typical American or what?!
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LondonYC in 34 floor:
Have you ever been in China?
How do you know we chinese Citizens don't have enough human right and freedom?
I know --All of these are what BBC and other EU medias told you.
you are fooled by your medias, baby:)
If we didn't have had any human right or freedom in China. maybe I would agree with you now instead of laugh at you.
If you can spare your time to have a trip in China. your own eyes will told you some truth.
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As Chinese we know what are our common shortcomings. We tend to treat foreigners better than our own, we are very quick to find a money angle and exploit it to its fullest, sometimes shamelessly. We lost our culture, at least the bulk of that. Many of us are impolite, we shout when we speak, our kitchens are dirty so are the WCs (but the food is good!). Yet these things are relatively minor when compared to a emerging world power. That last aspect not please a lot of people in the West.
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Mr. Reynold,
As a reporter, you surely realize that how China is seen by the world is very much influenced by how people like you who are oligopolizing the world’s media choose to project China to the world. You give your own “unbiased” version of how you see China and how China should see itself. When the Chinese resists this you find it hard to swallow.
It is normal that China wants to project its own image to the world and how it sees itself, rather than having to rely on your mercy to create the image of China that you want to the world.
As you very well know, the Chinese government, let alone the Chinese people, naturally and legitimately does not want people like you to control how the world sees China and how China sees itself, particularly how the average Chinese sees their own government. The reason is very simple: the best way to control someone is to control that person’s mind and heart. Why do you find it hard to swallow the fact that BBC’s Chinese site is restricted in China? This is natural. Suppose that for some reason, more and more people in the West begin to loose trust in Western-style democracy and the Chinese set up their version of the BBC (say, CBC) to spread their views of the world and trying to influence Western public opinion to think that the Chinese model should be the norm in the West, and undermining the core of Western values. Then, do you think that the Western governments, including your own, will simply sit back, clap their hands and allow a Chinese-style government be established across the West?
On a more general note, historically speaking, Western civilization has had a strong tendency to think of itself as the best civilization, that its values should be universally accepted, and to spread and dominate other civilizations. In recent history, with the help of the so-called “free and unbiased press” like the BBC, the West has been trying to spread and impose Western-style democracy on what you define as the “non-democratic” world, meaning that part of the world that does not abide to Western-style democracy.
This is, in essence, like the Christians of the past centuries trying to spread and impose their faith on other religions. Or, like the spread of Western colonialism, with the aim of spreading Christianity and “saving the uncivilized people” across the world acting at its main engine. What the West has always refused to realize is that once your civilization tries to impose itself on other civilizations, those civilizations will natural resist, thus giving birth to conflicts. This has created a lot of problems and sufferings.
China has its own history, values, goals and local conditions. It wants to pick and choose only what it finds benefitial from the West, such as your technology, and to work out its own model based on its local conditions to create what they call “Socialism with Chinese characteristics”. This remains a basic Chinese strategy. If you look at Chinese history, China did exactly this with Buddhism. It picked and choose the parts of Buddhism that it thought fit and useful to itself, namely those parts of Buddhism that could be incorporated within its original Taoist-Confucianist culture, such as the idea of reincarnation. Why was Christianity not widely accepted in China like Buddhism was? The most important reason was that the Chinese could not fit in Christianity into their own belief system, unlike in the case of Buddhism. The same thing is happening now with Western-style democracy. But people like you in the West are not happy with this approach. You think that China should indiscriminately swallow everything Western and your own version of democracy.
I think that the best approach is to learn how to respect each other and work for mutual benefit, rather than trying to impose one’s own values on or trying to influence others. This is a principle that people across the world, irrespective of cultural background, will find easier to abide to.
By the way, Mr. Reynold, please allow me to give you a small piece of advice: Please do not report as if you are a reporter for some kind of human rights group or the Free Tibet movement, because by doing so you are doing great harm to the BBC’s integrity and how it is seen, especially in China. If you find it hard to do this, then at least try not to be seen as such by your readers. Do not shoot your own feet.
Another option is to simply quit the BBC and join some Western-style human rights group.
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I find it fascination that the BBC will put heavy, even extreme emphasis on alleged Chinese violations of Human Rights while hardly mentioning Britain's involvement in the torture of prisoners, especially in US hands !!
When a senior Opposition MP can be arrested by stormtroopers and have his home and offices searched without a proper warrant and property taken away, that is blithely explained away.
There seems to be one rule for us and one *other* rule for the rest of the world !!
Perhaps, while James is pointing one finger at CCTV, he is, in effect, highlighting BBC's own shortcomings and pointing three fingers back at his employers !!
The Bible says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone !!" Cast away, James !!
BTW, 20 million unemployed in China is less than 1.5% of the population. There is already 5% unemployment in Britain and rising rapidly by the day !! Perhaps you could do an article comparing the circumstances and the percentages !!
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I've been following this blog for quite a while, but it's the first time I've posted.
I am always astonished that such a high proportion of comments are shrill accusations. Mainly saying someone else is biased/hypocritical/manipulative/doesn't understand China/hates China... or vice versa.
In my
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I wish Chinese people and Westerners would get over themself and develop a thicker skin to criticism. We have a duty and a responsibility to seek to improve the policies both of our governments, and of foreign governments. So lets stop wasting time being outraged at each other and actually discuss taboo and sensitive issues such as Tiananmen, without resorting to generalisations, name-calling, or crimes against reason......
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Reply to Post #8
"Let's see how long China keeps to the Heping Jueqi doctrine when the economy goes south and the CCP have to go back to relying on nationalism to stay in power....
Next stop, Taiwan.
Hope it doesn't come to that, but it could easily happen."
Chinese nationalism didn't sprout because of CCP, it sprouted because many western countries refuse to treat China and its government fairly. Now, I'm not going to list all the events that showed the unfair treatment, but there are many that can be seen.
And don't be naive, Chinese nationalism wasn't very strong before the Olympic year, most Chinese people are busy with their day to day routines and ensuring that they can feed their families well that they have no spare time to "exercise" their nationalism. Did CCP struggle in holding their power because of that? Apparently no.
Did China use ANY violence against Taiwan so far despite literally saying it will? No. On the contrary, China keeps reinforcing on a "peaceful reunion" with Taiwanese people. If not for Chen's extreme measures, China would not even have thought of mobilizing its military. Though there are some people who still refuse to recognise Taiwan as a part of China, it IS shown as a part of China on legal maps. CCP is also allowing Taiwan to have its own government, own currency and own culture, and is working closely with the newly elected Ma government.
If Taiwan's future governments don't resort to the same extreme measures Chen's govt did, if the separatists in/outside China stop creating havoc and unrest, if the western world stop portraying China as a threat and using all sorts of unreasonable arguments to prevent China from pursuing the path of socialism, I don't see why China can't keep its doctrine of "Hepin Juqi".
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I went through a dozen of comments and decided to write something somewhat off-topic.
Well, as we all learned, Chinese medias are controlled and manipulated by the states. And as we all believed, most medias in the western world, especially those in the US, Canada and EU, are free. This brings up a problem - it seems that the western medias' reports are the truths.
First, we as human incline to be excited, and to trust, speech that are challenging the authority. Newspapers report far more negative news than positive ones because this makes money; it makes money because people like to read it. If someone is criticized, it feels true. If someone is praised, it feels fake. Even if we _know_ that Chinese medias are controlled, we still treat them as "authorities" (no? come on, it's state-run medias run by a pre-superpower) and are far more interested in the articles that criticize them.
This brings up another problem. Whether secretly controlled by the western governments (as some " 'free' medias result in easy brainwashing" theories suggest) or not, western medias are far more likely to report how China, or any other administrations, is lying, hiding or doing the wrong thing. It may be true (suggesting it may be not), but it's guaranteed to be only one side of the story. Medias' responses to the Tibet riot, where faked and made up pictures and stories were reported before reporters really got in there, revealed this. Do these medias want to accuse China of anything? No. They want money, and time is the gold to the presses. As time goes, the negative images accumulate and more thumb-downs are given to China.
What China realized after the riot was that it should not only stand the negative reports, but also make itself heard to the world, for every time a piece of information is repeated, a few more people is persuaded. China has waited for too long and the negative images are already dominating. It's time some opposite information came up.
It would be difficult, I guarantee you, for China is the authority and people will tend to choose to trust the negative news, and leave alone the positive ones (while cursing, probably). That's exactly what I'm telling you not to do. Anything you read is subjective, some more than others. But as you read more, you'll certainly come up with a objective conclusion naturally.
So next time if you're reading anything, about China or not, check if you're choosing to believe or not to believe before reading. If you are, stop.
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Reply to post #37:
@ Oechsle,
The Tibet issue is indeed complicated, but there are some obvious hypocrisies and lies behind it.
First, the Tibet Government in Exile says that Sichuan, Gansu, Yunnan and Qinghai is outright a part of Tibet, not just the Autonomous Region we see today. Anyone who knows the TRUE Chinese history would know the Tibet that they claim (which includes Sichuan, Gansu, Yunnan and Qinghai) NEVER EXISTED in any history books.
Second, the Tibet Government in Exile claims that more than 1.2mill Tibetans were killed in 1950s when People's Liberation Army moved in. Again, that is not possible because the population in Tibet in the 1950s was not more than 1.2million. Also, the current population in Tibet is around 2mill, it's not likely for a population to nearly double in less than century if genocide was conducted on them.
Third, the Tibet Government in Exile claims that "Tibetans in and out of Tibet want independence." Dalai Lama himself changed his mind and said Tibet should not claim independence from China, and this was reported on western medias. Not only that, counting all the Tibetans (and not non-Tibetan supporters of Free Tibet) that wanted independence, they don't even make up 1% of the total Tibet population in China. If the Tibetan majority isn't shouting for independence, how can one claim the whole of Tibet wants independence?
Some questions worth raising here. Why did the protests not address other human right problems in China? Why did Tibetans living in OTHER PROVINCES not protest in support of independence? Why were there not a SINGLE picture of CCP police/soldiers using violence on protestors despite so many western media claiming so?
The sad thing here is, China is just a normal developing country, but it has been portrayed as a hell by the western world. It is both a mixture of fear, guilt and an outright hate for communism (or more precisely Mao) by capitalists that resulted in the biasness we see today.
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I have to add one more thing:
China hasn't really won me over, but the hypocrisy and ignorance of biased crowds in the West have pushed me over.
I continue to defend and criticise both the East and West when needs be. People are just as brainwashed in the West as they are in China (if any). Time to wake up.
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we do not care about other views very much.china is in the right direction,our life become better and better.
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Does China really cares about what other countries (still foreign devils in many outside of large cities) think of it? To me Olympics is just excuse to for the city to push over large project, "renew" older districts and getting kick backs from developer. Just as Iraq war is convoluted war to receive kick back from big oil. And the CCTV thing is just excuse to getting more funding. Just watch CCTV-9 and other CCTV channels. (say 1, 2, 3 or my favorite 10) and notice the difference in production quality. Then you'll see how serious they are, really, about its international programming.
Also I never met a normal person in China that's worried about when or how China "succeeds." Perhaps you should stay out of the FQ crowd of 15 - 21 year olds, whom should have spent their doing more interesting things
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The more westerners discuss about China, visit the country, and interact with Chinese everywhere, the more they will learn the fundamentals of Chinese culture and philosophy. They will realize how tainted their views about China have been. The transition does not come from top down, but from bottom up. It is the millions of Chinese living and working overseas (many of them are readers here) that can nudge the western public to form a balance view of China. It will take time, maybe 10-20 years, but I firmly believe, "Yes, We Can!"
Just learned that the shoe thrower from Cambridge wrote a letter of remorse to President Wen. Wen asked the school to keep him in Cambridge so that he can learn more about China. A good example of harmony, instead of conflict, is a more civilized way to resolve differences.
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A question that came to my mind is, have CCTV made broadcast availible to the west? I seriously do not no. If not, then I would say there is discrimination and deliberation to exclude the west by selectively choosing Russian and Arabic. If yes, then the misinformation in this essay by dismissing China's effort to reach out to the west will cause misunderstanding and misled people to think China is scheming to align itself with Russia-Muslim behind the west, and it will arouse unhelpful xenophobia.
But regardless of whether China have tried to reach out to the west or not, the essay does inherently suggest some how CCTV does not share the same privileges, lets say, to some British news agency.
Of course, it is understandable western journalist have their predisposition, standard of ethics, and Orwellian value and such. But so did the west when it invaded China during the 19th century (excluding Orwellian value, however the west was ideological and narcissistly self-arbitrate truth/justice anyways).
An underlying theme in James' essay is about the competition of moral values, which is more superior? Western assertiveness vs eastern passivity. Jesus said treat others as you do yourself; Confucist said do not do to others you will not do to yourself. The moral loophole of the west, is that it does not negate imposing one's own value on to others. An imperfection of the east, is social inertia.
Is the United states, which kill primarily non-Americans in the last half a century (through covert+overt operations), morally superior to China, which kill primarily its own citizens (through misgovernance and political turmoil) in the last half a century? In terms of absolute numbers of deaths, America did cause lesser deaths than China.
Although I really do not know how the result will turnout, on a personal level, I think the west have in the past offended too many nations. So on a global stage, they will probably enjoy lesser friends in the future with greater equality.
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to col_man:
To define what is China's success is a silly and unmeaningful question. What I want to argue is your word "invade". Do you really call China's reunification "invade" before you can explain:
1) Taiwan is unquestionably a province of Republic of China, whose constitution claims its legal territory of both Chinese mainland and Taiwan, with capital city Nanjing and two temporal capital Taipei and Chongqing?
2) Taiwan's ruling party KMT is named Chinese Nationalist Party, who claims CCP is a Chinese rebeller and who set up the National Unification Council to realize the unification goals.
3) Taiwan's former leader Mr. Chen Shui Bian repetitively claim Taiwan need to be independent, but from whom? and why is it necessary?
4) The truth is, Chinese Civil War since 1945 has never ended. None of CCP and KMT has claimed its ending, neither its triumph, which is what Mr. Hu Jintao and Mr. Ma Yinjeu must work together to produce.
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Frankly I'm actually even more worried about China now than I was five years ago. Given BBC reporting about such matters as the Darfur conflict, the nation of Burma, and China's policies towards its own minorities it seems to me that China is acting just as carelessly as the US and USSR did.
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21 countries = global? my bbc.
Culling the opinions of like minded western leaning countries constitute is no different from the self satisfying efforts of communist countries that the western media liked to laugh at.
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Whose opinions were gathered in this poll - American, Britons, Europeans? And specifically what "influence" is this poll referring to?
If yes is the correct answer to the question, then all this poll is exercising are Eurocentric beliefs that 'Western' (for lack of a better word) principles prevail in morality and conduct - a mere normative and subjective perspective.
The US and UK have been involved in the hideous war in Iraq together with countless other acts of atrocities. Have any polls conducted in the African, Asian, and Latin American, and Middle Eastern nations received any publicity on English speaking media's airtime? Answer is prevailingly and a resounding "no".
How is the aspiring 'global citizen' to achieve an understanding and appreciation of the world's complexities when all media and information is dumbed down, simplified to 'us vs. them' doctrines? Certainly there is calculated method in this madness: the media can better sell its message, and the audience feeds off it because it is simple and non-complex.
I hope that the tyranny of the incurious mind will be overthrown and in sweeps a mind that encourages cross-cultural understanding.
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so i went to taipei visiting my good friend two months ago. occassionally, I asked him his thoughts about a 'reunion' between mainland china and taiwan.. and I was shocked with the answer he gave me.
For the first time, he softened down and told me " yes! it is going to happen. China and Taiwan.. the two brothers will unite again to form to be a much more stronger China one day. It will happen sooner or later. perphaps before I die . I said " hey... that's not the kind of words that come out of your mouth... all these years.. you've been hating the kind of communist China.
Then he told me " You've got to wake up. Anyone who still thinks China is the same communist China 30 yrs ago is just making himself looking stupid. They are stronger day by day, and they getting tied us up financial , economically and we are having the same culture and language origin. Even though it is still one party ruling the country, but the Chinese current top leaders are a group of smart guys. We will go to get united with them again , whether we like it or not. And it is a fact, we can see that they are doing their utmost best to improve their standard of livings, health and education and that's not an easy task with a population of 1.3 billion people.
Well.. in my opinion, as a western born Chinese living now in HK, of course I would love to see these two brothers reunite. But I think what the mainland first must do, is the take away all the missles pointing on Taiwan. How can you negotiate when someone is pointing a gun on your head?
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Senlin:
I'm sorry but that's not the truth. It has always been the west starting the kind of spreading 'China of becoming a threat of the future' thing .
I've been living in HK for 15 years, and I can tell you, 99% of the people I know are not interested in the kind of nonsense your talking about.
Perhaps you have been watching too much movies? LoL. Try to read some real history books and do simply some more research.
Modern China did never invaded any country. And yes, it is NEVER invaded another country in modern China. Do you know what invasion is? Instead, starting from the opium war in 1842, China had been tortured and raped by Japan, Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy , US etc. And somehow I am really wondering how many of the people here would ever mention a single word about how China had been suffering for those 150 years. Does the media in the west here tell you much about it? In the eyes of the west, China is just another country like how they tried to evilish Russia. no wonder what a great success Rambo brought!
I'd never say communism China is good, instead I critisize them every day! but we know are problems well, as well as your own country. At least we know we had been sleeping for a couple decades. We are trying to learn now. We critisize our country as well, you're welcome to add your voice but please be fair. The point is, you're not helping AT ALL, but you are trying to make enemies and this is not with the Chinese government but with all the worldwide Chinese people, including those in China, Hong Kong, Macau, Europe, US, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore and southeast Asia.
Ask any country in the UN and is there a single country that will say Tibet is a country? You make me laugh my friend!
Thanks to the western media, because you are not against communism china only, but against all the Chinese in the world. It has united us. How your biased and unfair reporting on China has shocked the overseas Chinese (Including myself) and I have to say it is really disturbing. Even myself who is not a big fan of Communism China start to belief who is the good guy and who is the fake /evil?
Going to kill and rape the poor people in the middle east and you still dare to stand up and continue to point your finger on other country's matters? How would you feel if the Chinese leaders are going to meet the head of IRA?
Modern China had a war with the following:
Vietnam - and it took 16 days to win. China didn't take a single mile of their land.
India - China won the war, too but we did not take any of their land. no bases set or anything like what the u.s. or UK are doing, in the name of Democracy, yeah right.
Korean War against the U.S. - It was a draw and this stupid war Mao Zedong son even died in. It was a stupid war which China was forced by Russia to get in.
Senlin: I can believe I have been wasting my time to reply on message to people just like you. Cos I know that there are just still so many of your kind of people, that no matter what we do, how China is trying his best to be friends with your country, no matter how friendly, you will just never ever change your view on China and in the end it is just a waste of time.
perhaps.. if we change the topic to the premierleague, then we can have something in common.
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To Selin and Heyone:
I have been labelled by both of you as a communist web police. Unfortunately I am a normal Chinese who has been in the UK for nearly 10 years.
Because there are some people like you two, which makes Chinese all united wherever we are, whatever our beliefs are. My only suggestion to you is: don't talk so much untruth and make story by yourself, what you get is lifting the stones and hitting your own feet.
The mainstream trend between the UK and China is to communicate, to understand each other by mutual learning. This trend cannot be stopped by some narrow minded people.
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Goonercow: Who said anything about invasions from modern China? I was talking about ancient China. Your ancestors invaded other nations (think Vietnam and Korea) just as mine did. Why is the date relevant? Have I missed something? They were still invaded against their will until they gained independence.
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#53
If Tibet had been part of the British Empire, it would have been plundered like the rest of British colonies in Africa and Asia...........
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heehee well said Goonercow
the reply you got... ;-)
Peace out everyone x
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@71
"It is both a mixture of fear, guilt and an outright hate for communism (or more precisely Mao) by capitalists that resulted in the biasness we see today. "
-I think a hatred of Communism and Mao are fair enough, to be honest.
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@ 45
Find a map and check out where Taiwan is then you get the answer.
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Bloofs.
"Mongolia once ruled over all of China, but China is now independent."
Mongolians conquered Song dynasty(Han ruled) and established Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) Mongolians did not come empty handed, they brought entire Mongol into China and they integrated with Han Chinese. From then Tibet became part of China. Ming Dynasty(1368-1644) was Han ruled. Qing dynasty (1644-1911) was established by Manchurians who defeated the corrupted Ming. They brought entire Manchu (the most fertile land in today's north part of P R China) to become part of China. R O China(1912-1949) did not have one day of peace. There were civil wars and foreign invations during which Soviet Union's troop entered and occupied Outer Mongolia. Outer Mongolia became independent under Soviet Union 's political and military influence. Inner Mongolia and majority of Mongol's population remain as part of China. China is now an independent country with 56 ethnics. Mongolian population tops the list compares with the other 54 minorities. They are part of the family.
I understand that you want Tibet become independent because of the perceived needs of independence thanks to Tibetans in exiles
and western media. Have you ever thought about whether the Tibetan in exiles and those violent riotors represent 5.5 million Tibetans in China?
We do not care if part of your country become independent, that is your business. But if you want to impose your western value onto Chinese you might meet resistance.
And also I suggest you do some research to find out how many races, ethnics, groups around globe would like to become independent. If "If they want independence then they should have independence" apllies to China the it should be applied to every single country in the world. Then this world will probably have lots of fun for the next 1-2 century.
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@ Senlin.
"Your ancestors invaded other nations (think Vietnam and Korea) just as mine did."
Please double check whether the blogger is a Han or Manchurian. Manchurians invaded, occupied, and ruled Vietnam and Korea during Ching Dynasty. Han never did that. You can say that to me since I have got Manchurian blood.
You know what Han people want? There is an old saying describe Han Chinese. "One cow, two (Chinese)acres of land, wife, children and a warm bed" If you go through Chinese history you will find out all dynasties established by Han Chinese were with small territories. It is the confucianism makes it impossible for Han Chinese to expand their territory not because their lack of capacity.
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The result of the opinion poll did show one thing: the triumph of the "free" western median against china this year.
China is not the only victim.
Today I have read the "Iranian Islamic Revolution" in "have you say", the printed entries are mostly against the current religious government in Iran and mostly from people outside Iran (again many are from the exile society). They (or the selection of BBC) emphasize that Khomeni has not fulfilled this word of a more free and developed country and just lied. Religious government is not good for country.
Two thing I understand from this:
1. Although I am not fan for government in Iran nor I knew a lot about its history, and I did feel uncomfortable being forced to use headscarf when I was in Iran last year , I do respect their independence and gut to say no to the hostile powers, even under sanction, as China did before 30 years. The western median try their best to portray Iran as a evil backward country and the western try the best to limit iran's development (through sanction) to show they are right. As same as they did to China before 30 years and even now.
2. The "free" median, including BBC, obviously does not like the religious government in Tehran but at same time seems to love Dalai Lama so much. Dalai is, on the contrary of Khomeni, portrayed as a religious and open-minded democratic leader (maybe these two concept do collide already). In the other word, BBC (or its selection of entries) believe that Khomeni has lied or failed and at the same time recommend that Dalai is not lying and he wouldl be a good governor if he was given a chance. I can only laugh at this strategies of the "free" median to all the government they don't like. (do not pretend to be naive to say Dalai is only a religious reader).
In the end, I conclude that China does have the image problem, but not only because some of her politics, but mainly because of her lack of strategies in advertise herself in this hostile "free" median.
Ps: I am normal oversee Chinese, not a party member, from real humble background (parents came from poor countryside and have nothing to do this government) . I do admire the huge advancement achieved in the western, both socially and economically. But sometimes the shameless bias in the median and also in the western people does drive me to better understand the reality and force me to speak back to those ignorant.
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Hi funnyanotherblogger:
Did not the Han dynasty in 109BC and 111BC invade Vietnam and Korea (under Han Wudi) respectively?
When it comes to the prevalant view (amongst Chinese) that Chinese history is one of peace and contentment, most Westerners know little or nothing about ancient China to either agree or disagree with these views. From the little research in Chinese history text books I have made, I've read about invasion and expansion. I do not see how this is any different to colonialism, just because it happened thousands of years ago? I heard that some of the torture techniques used by Chinese leaders make Hitler look like a Saint. I'm hoping to learn more about this though. I know the phrase 'Heping Jueqi' has been used, but how does this explain expansion into other territories?
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Is 'western style democracy' any more inclusive than 'authoritarian capitalism.' Aren't they just the same thing from different perspectives. Many westerner's really have little, or no understanding of Asian culture and values . 'Orientalism' is as pervasive in the west today as it was in the day's of Marco Polo.
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94 Daxiongmao
What you just said is foundless claim. It has no inherent logic whatsoever for any sensible people, let alone Chinese. 109-111BC, you said?? Mind you that we humans are in 2009AD.
Look, Daxiongmao, Pandas, hves been widely vegerarians today for maybe thousands of yrs and beyond. You can't feed a Daxiongmao today based on the belief that it belongs to bear family after all, and its pre-historic ancestors were meat-eating. Any objection, José ?
Similarly, every geographicly large country today, by definition, was involved in sort of expansionary policy at certain time in its history. This fact alone doesn't logically conclude that this country is by definition an expansionist today, thereby must bear any related blames.
You initialtive to have made a Chinese history book yourslef is encouraging. However, learning history doesn't mean to cut without pretext and make up history according to your own appetite.
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Authoritarians and thesis writers like to throw buzzwords around, don't they?
No matter who provides whom with what, in a totalitarian state, do people have choice?
No choice, nor alternative in a crisis - if people can't vote, can't speak.
Governments would take whatever may benefit themselves the most if nothing prevents them from doing so (they'll say the charming opposite). When one has power, one wants more power, same with money. Greed drives. Thanks to our glorious simian heritage.
Question: would that modal last long?
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China has not fought a war in the last 30 years, and has never colonised an inch of foreign territory in Asia, Africa, Americas, and Australasia. China certainly deserves a Nobel Peace Prize for that impeccable track record!
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I just wanted to say, James, I think that you have done a fabulous job!
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James, I can't emphasize it more , as shown in my previous posts , I am 100% agree with you on this one.
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EWONGNL: Thank you for your response.
Perhaps those affirmations that China has no history of invading foreign countries, actually refers specifically to post-1949 China then as it seems that ancient history tells a different story.
I'll also bear in mind the panda allegory next time I'm faced with accusations of belonging to a race of aggressors and imperialists (usually by Chinese in their 20's), explaining that I have little taste for opium nor should I be held accountable for the actions of my ancestors.
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@91
"If "If they want independence then they should have independence" apllies to China the it should be applied to every single country in the world. "
-Yes, it should.
"Then this world will probably have lots of fun for the next 1-2 century."
-Nothing worth doing is ever easy.
And preventing independence also leads to 'fun' anyway.
It's about dialogue, and negotiation, and democratic votes - with these things independent or semi-independent nations can come to exist without war.
The 'fun' comes from totalitarian governments saying 'you are part of this nation whether you like it or not'.
As for whether the Tibetans in TAR would vote for independence, I honestly don't know. I think they probably would vote for independence, but maybe not.
Why not let them have their say - and then we will know, huh?
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@95
Lots of Eastern nations have democracy. Their democracies are not perfect, but better than a one party state.
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I was won over by China before they began the PR drive. Americans, especially our congress, needs to do a lot more research on China people, culture, politics, history.
We could learn so much and hopefully our new president will spend time talking to everybody as he seems to do.
Studying the language is so much easier than when I started in 1957. Learn all of it you can. The Chinese I know appreciate the effort to try and speak their language. I'm convinced the grass-roots Chinese like Americans just as us grass-root Americans love them. Alexander Kane is one of my pen names. Britt.
Towery Tales: www.towerytales.blogspot.com
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@94
"Did not the Han dynasty in 109BC and 111BC invade Vietnam and Korea (under Han Wudi) respectively?"
Are you serious? Go back almost 2000 years to find some evidence against China's peaceful rise today? Han Dynasty was under constant threat from Xong Nu from the north and internal turmoils. Only under Han Wu Di China was able to unite and fight back against Xong Nu. I do not know where did you learn your history from? Han Wu Di was never able to expand Han's territory to Vietnam or Korea.
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99
aeroarchie,
Bulgaria and the Republic of Tonga have also not fought any wars or invaded anybody in the last 50 years. Yet I do not think they will ever see a Nobel Prize for Peace comming their way.
Also there are those who would disagree with the 'impeccable track record' of China. After all it was not so long ago when the students were massacred at the Tianenmen square. Or maybe killing your own people does not count against the impeccability of the record?
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#45 davidwhite44
The government in Taiwan is "Republic of China". It includes the mainland China as part of its territory in its constitution, as simple as that. Its national anthem praises the Tibetan Plateau and the yellow river.
A Chinese government has governed it for centuries and still does it today. The Chinese governance was disrupted briefly by Portuguese and Japanese. That is it.
The province is not yet governed by the People's Republic of China. Maybe oneday, the two will merge and call it "Federation of China". Maybe the mainland will take over and put it under "People's republic", or may be the Taiwan side will take over the mainland, and call the whole territory "Republic of China". Nobody knows.
One thing is certain though: the mainland government will use force, if the Taiwan side declares independence. Anybody not happy with that has to fight with blood and lives.
As simple as that.
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#110 Isenhorn
China is a very big country in terms of economic and military strength. It could flex its muscle if it wanted to but it never did. So don't compare China with Bulgaria or Tonga, compare it with USA and Russia.
About that Tianenmen "massacre", it's still hearsay evidence as far as I am concerned.
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36. Senlin
It seems as if all Chinese-educated people are programmed to believe that China will become the world's most powerful nation. Sorry to disappoint you but you may never get there, and the glory days of invading other countries/states may never return. You haven't even got enough water for those people in the north.
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Just another faked product :-D
It seems as if all Western-educated people are programmed not to believe that China will become the world's most powerful nation. Sorry to disappoint you but we will get there. Yes, the glory days of UK to invade other countries/states may never return (I forget Irak -.- Maybe you still consider this as a glory, but do not assume we have the same logic as you).
You are right, we haven't even got enough water for those people in the north, since flood in the south and drought in the north is the every-year challenge for our chinese people, our climate is so. But also every year we organize together and keep improving the irrigation system to produce enough food for us all, and never burden the world food market. Believe this or not.
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@53. Bloofs
I appreciate your effort of learing the history and your knowledge, it makes a reasonanle basis for some serious discussions. I agree with most of your descriptions on Tibet history.
On the other side, please also think about that different people have different understanding and different values. You still believe in an independent Tibet. Quite common, almost all westerns believe so. It is hard to change your mind, I know it, so let it be.
As for us, we know Tibet is a part of China, and Tibetans are our brothers and sisters. China is a multi-nation country. Tibetan is a nation within the concept "Chinese", the same as Han (the majority nation which counts for over 90% of the population in China) is a nation within the concept "Chinese". It is a common thing that western always mix the term "Han" and "Chinese" together. You may feel these ideas are strange, I am just telling you our mind.
In this world there are many strong believes which simply do not compromise each other, but if we wish to cooperate and make the world better, we should learn to understand and tolerate. In your example of Scotland, whether UK let this half of the island have indepence, or when you will do so, is non of our business. If I keep telling you in any possible occassion that I still believe Scotland deserve its immediate Independence, you will surely become quite upset. In the same way, Tibet is non of your business. It does not mean that your desire of disintegrate your country is a shining example we should follow. Feel hard to accept? Then try to persuade USA to give independence to Hawai.
However, as long as people in UK or USA apply their value to their own countries, we will stay calm and respect their choice.
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China has already embarked on a water-diversion project called the South-to-North Water Diversion Project (www.water-technology.net/projects/south_north) or South-North Water Transfer Project (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South-NorthWater_Transfer_Project). This is a multi-billion dollars and multi-decade project and when completed will help mitigate water shortage problem in northern China.
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@112
"One thing is certain though: the mainland government will use force, if the Taiwan side declares independence. Anybody not happy with that has to fight with blood and lives."
-This is why the West fears and mistrusts China, not because you are raising living standards, not because we have lost our colonial holdings, not because of cultural misunderstangs: but because of threats like these.
Your post actually proves the point I wa smaking in #8.
Most people would agree Taiwan is independent already and has been since the civil war, but face is saved by not declaring independence formally.
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@116
Interesting points, which I have already addressed (kind of).
"As for us, we know Tibet is a part of China, and Tibetans are our brothers and sisters. China is a multi-nation country."
-Do the ethnic Tibetans truly feel this way? I doubt it.
If they are your brothers and sisters, why did you kill an estimated half a million of them in the 1950's?
Why not allow true autonomy for Tibet within a wider Chinese state, as HHDL has suggested?
'If I keep telling you in any possible occassion that I still believe Scotland deserve its immediate Independence, you will surely become quite upset. '
-No because we allow different opinions without becoming insulted by them. And we use democracy to settle these issues.
'Feel hard to accept? Then try to persuade USA to give independence to Hawai.'
-Very good point, I have already mentioned Hawaii. The US would certainly allow Hawaii to secede from the Union with a democratic vote. Ethnic Hawaiians are no longer the majority so this is unlikely to happen.
However the main point is that Hawaiians *are* allowed to protest, to call for independence, to practice any native rituals and customs without interference, and can form political parties calling for independence. None of these things are allowed for Tibetans.
"However, as long as people in UK or USA apply their value to their own countries, we will stay calm and respect their choice."
-Where was China's respect for Tibetans to follow their own values and culture? Was the state of Tibet any of China's 'business' in the 1950's?
No.
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#121
The Hawaiian Kingdom has for many decades being fighting for independence and self-determination.
Given the advantages of democracy (in the US) that you have stated, why is their wish not allowed to be fulfilled?
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Bloofs, I can assure that there is no way that the United States would ever allow a state to secede. We fought a bloody civil war the last time a bunch of states tried.
Also, your comments about "...and maybe if Tibet had been part of the British Empire we could have protected it for a while like with Hong Kong..." is what drives the rest of the world mad. It's because you white people in British and America think that we love to be subjugated by you. So it's okay to criticize when other countries invade others, but it's okay for you white countries to do it because you'll treat the natives so nicely.
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"China certainly deserves a Nobel Prize for that impeccable track record!"
are u living in mars?
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Disclaimer: I am (half) Chinese, educated and working in the UK, previously lived in HK.
I have often found that whole China v West debate stems from the basic human nature of rooting for ones own, probably stems from tribal or even evolutionary roots.
Basically the amount of "respect" a nation gets and nationalistic fervour exhibited by a given race/nationality is directly proportional to the given nation's prowess (economic/military/cultural) at a given point in time. It has nothing, I believe, to do with ethics or morals. In other words, whoever is top dog at the moment will think that their way is the best way, and most people in the world will agree - well, cos they are obviously doing well...
The Chinese psyche consists of: Nostalgia for the good ol' days of Chinese imperial might, (last seen in the early Qing dynasty), a history of recent humiliation (Late Qing dynasty, well...up to now really) and a strong suspicion of external influences - witness: Foreign occupation/annexation during the 19th century, Japanese occupation in the mid 20th, Russian influence in the mid-late 20th. All of these things were seen to have brought havoc and chaos to China.
The concept of democracy is not one that comes naturally to us, since our history has been a more or less 3000yr story of dynastic succession. Therefore the current 'dynasty' - the CCP, is seen not necessarily as a one party state, but as the new dynasty. This explains why despite the many obvious faults of the CCP, ultimately they are the current flag bearers, therefore the Chinese, in particularly the Han, identify with their leaders. The concept of identity is inextricably linked to the state, indeed the term 'Han' is derived from the particularly successful Han dynasty.
Hence, many Chinese take offence at any slight to their country/govt because they view it as an affront to their identity. The strength of this bond also explains why many Chinese feel that it is imperative that China regain its world standing. To the average UK citizen, being proud of being British does not equate to being proud of the UK govt, but this is not the case for most Chinese, there is no distinction between the two.
It is interesting to note how greco-roman and confucian thought and philosophy still influence our values and thinking today. Personally I think China is undergoing the most important experiment in modern(ish) history since the founding of America. I await the results with eager anticipation.
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@125
Why is Hawaii not independent? One reason among many is that the ethnic Hawaiians are now the minority in their own land - the same sort of thing is happening in Tibet with Han immigration. I support Hawaiian independence as well, in case you're interested.
However, even if Hawaii does not get independence, Hawaiians *are* allowed to protest, to call for independence, to practice any native rituals and customs without interference, and can form political parties calling for independence. None of these things are allowed for Tibetans.
@126
The civil war happened nearly 200 years ago in different circumstances, today, with a genuine democratic vote I am confident the USA would not use violence to prevent Hawaii from seceding.
Bill Clinton issued a formal apology to the people of Hawaii for the US effectively undermining Hawaii's sovereignty back in the 1800s. Will the CCP ever apologise to Tibet? No.
As for my comment about the British Empire 'protecting' Tibet - well, look at the results. Hong Kong under British rule = freer, more democratic, wealthier. Not perfect, but better than mainland China.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Same goes for Taiwan - and that's not an ex-colony.
The CCP made a mess of everything it touched. Believe it.
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"The concept of democracy is not one that comes naturally to us, since our history has been a more or less 3000yr story of dynastic succession."
Here in the UK we also had a couple of thousands of years of monarchical rule, but we still founded modern democracy.
Democracy is universal and belongs to everyone.
Yes, cultural differences can mean legitimate differences in the form that democracy operates, but democracy should operate everywhere.
It is the only moral and ethical system.
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@121. Bloofs wrote:
Hi Bloofs, I try to answer some of your questions
1)
"As for us, we know Tibet is a part of China, and Tibetans are our brothers and sisters. China is a multi-nation country."
-Do the ethnic Tibetans truly feel this way? I doubt it.
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: Doubt is a nice thing, much better than many European simply told me with no doubt that “Tibetans truly do not feel this way”. Since you have made a great effort of studying the history, I would suggest you to make a trip to Tibet and ask them by yourself. Tibet is not a separated region. My best friend in Germany was there 5 years ago. It is a nice location even for a simple vacation time.
2)
If they are your brothers and sisters, why did you kill an estimated half a million of them in the 1950's?
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: Who made the estimation? You really believe it?
In 1950 before PLA marched into Tibet, there were merely 2 million Tibetans living there. This number suggest over one fourth of them were killed. Another fact: at that time, 95% of the Tibetans were slaves of their temples and lords. They had neither capability nor willing to resist.
Go there, ask native Tibetans, and make your own statistics, if truth is of utmost importance for you.
3.1)
Why not allow true autonomy for Tibet within a wider Chinese state, as HHDL has suggested?
3.2)
'If I keep telling you in any possible occassion that I still believe Scotland deserve its immediate Independence, you will surely become quite upset. '
-No because we allow different opinions without becoming insulted by them. And we use democracy to settle these issues.
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: This comes to the point that we have different values. In your value talking about autonomy of a part of your land is allowed, and maybe you will do so, no problem. But in our value this kind of discussion is not allowed. And, we do not think your value is superior over others.
On the other hand, HongKong and Macao are exceptions. For a peaceful handover we promised both regions to have 50 years of high autonomy, and we are holding it till the time counts.
4)
'Feel hard to accept? Then try to persuade USA to give independence to Hawai.'
-Very good point, I have already mentioned Hawaii. The US would certainly allow Hawaii to secede from the Union with a democratic vote. Ethnic Hawaiians are no longer the majority so this is unlikely to happen.
However the main point is that Hawaiians *are* allowed to protest, to call for independence, to practice any native rituals and customs without interference, and can form political parties calling for independence. None of these things are allowed for Tibetans.
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: In Europe, I have read a lot about “China is flooding Tibet with Chinese”. Now as for your description about Hawaii, it seems your system does make some missions much more efficiently accomplished.
I agree that people In Tibet do not have right to protest for independence. In fact, no one in China is allowed to do so. Our values at this point simply do not come together. Surely you do not like this, however, to satisfy European is not our duty.
On the other hand, Tibetans are “practicing their native rituals and customs”. If you consider Dalai Lama must be there to make the rituals complete, you do not understand Buddhism at all.
The key word “interference” is also interesting. Maybe you like Tibetan to live in their primitive state, so you call any modernization “interference”, such as we have built the railway. For us, to modernize and develop our home is our basic right as well as duty. Traditionally, parents in Tibet would prefer to send their sons to temples (if they can afford at all) in order to become Lama, they consider it as the ultimate glory, while in fact there is not other way to let children receive education. Now, this has been “interfered”. Children in Tibet, no matter boys or girls, must go to school as same as children in UK must do. To become Lama or priest or stay in secular life is their own choice when they have grown up.
5)
"However, as long as people in UK or USA apply their value to their own countries, we will stay calm and respect their choice."
-Where was China's respect for Tibetans to follow their own values and culture? Was the state of Tibet any of China's 'business' in the 1950's?
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: When Mongolian established the largest empire in human history, they did two things which are related to this topic: Tibet and China were both conquered by them, and ruled in a new Dynasty called “Yuan”(1271-1368). Since then, the history of Tibet being an independent country is over. All following Chinese dynasties have Tibet as their territory.
Due to the history, the though that “Tibetans are our people” has been so natural and deep entrenched, as when our last dynasty collapsed in 1911, the founders of “Republic of China” designed a national flag with five bands of different colors, to represent that China is a “Republic of five nations” (at that time people though there are only five nations in China, others are merely branches). Yes, you guessed it, Tibetan is one among them.
By the way, do not count this on communists. CCP was founded in 1921.
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#131
If you hold the same indignation for the plight of ethnic Hawaiians as you do for the perceived plight of Tibetans, why don't you protest about it on the streets of London or Washington?
What is the point of freedom of assembly, one person one vote, the ability to call for independence etc, if self-determination of ethnic Hawaiians will never be granted?
Regarding Xizang - research carried out by academics show that in Tibet today, the vast majority of the population is composed of ethnic Tibetans. To say that ethnic Han Chinese cannot live/work in Tibet (regardless of whether Tibet belongs to Greater China or not) is plainly racist. Don't forget, also, that the One-Child policy imposed on the Han does not apply to Tibetans, or any other ethnic group.
Regarding Hong Kong - bringing democracy to the island was not exactly the reason for invading China, was it?
Given that you reside in the UK, I would worry more about the erosion of civil liberties in your country.
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#131 Bloofs
"Hongkong under British rule - freer, more democratic, wealthier."
"freer, more democratic" - Politically, how could a colony be called a "free" land? Under British rule, HK's chief executive and top government officials were all Britons appointed by London. All major decisions were made by British officials, locals had no say in the administration. The colonial administration hurriedly introduced "democratic reforms" only after attempts to extend British colonial rule failed. After HK was returned to China in 1997, all its top government officials including the chief executive were locals.
In the Index of Economic Freedom compiled by the Heritage Foundation, HK remains No.1 in the global rankings. Since the 1997 handover, HK's score has stayed steady every year.
"wealthier" - HK's per capita GDP was USD26,100 in 1997. In 2007, per capita GDP has risen to USD30,157 (source: Wikipedia). A remarkable achievement considering the fact that HK's economy was severely hurt by the Asian financial crisis in 1997 and the outbreak of SARS in 2003.
"Same goes for Taiwan, and that's not an ex-colony"
Taiwan was a Dutch colony in the 17th century and a Japanese colony in 1895-1945.
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@135
"freer, more democratic" - Politically, how could a colony be called a "free" land?"
-Free speech, right to assembly, free media. These are, contrary to what some believe, very important. Yes, HK was often very corrupt, but so was (is) the CCP.
Hong Kong was not totally free, but it *was* freer for the individual than the Mainland.
"Under British rule, HK's chief executive and top government officials were all Britons appointed by London. All major decisions were made by British officials, locals had no say in the administration.
-Hm, very similar to Tibet, where Han cadres tend to run the show.
"wealthier" - HK's per capita GDP was USD26,100 in 1997.
-Yes, which at the time was wealthier than any comparable area of the mainland. And more modern, more technologically advanced.
Quoting from the BBC (which I know you will say is biased but still):
'Industrialisation gathered pace, and by the 1970s Hong Kong had become an "Asian tiger"; one of the region's economic powerhouses.'
-This was under the British, not the CCP.
The BBC also says:
'In the 19th and 20th centuries Hong Kong's population was boosted by the arrival of hundreds of thousands of migrants from China, many of whom were fleeing domestic upheavals.'
-Which is understandable. And they were fleeing to the stability of British ruled HK. They still came in huge numbers even after the glorious CCP took over.
"Taiwan was a Dutch colony in the 17th century and a Japanese colony in 1895-1945."
-I thought I would run into trouble with that!
I meant an ex- colony of the British, apologies for missing that out, couldn't go back and edit it.
And you don't answer the question of Taiwan also being wealthy, freer and more advanced than the mainland.
I do not approve of the British Empire once taking Chinese land. As I do not approve of the CCP taking away the right for Tibetans to govern themselves.
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@ Bloof
1)
'Democracy is universal and belongs to everyone.
Yes, cultural differences can mean legitimate differences in the form that democracy operates, but democracy should operate everywhere.
It is the only moral and ethical system.'
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It seems you people tend to be so easily convinced by some idols created by yourselves.
Replace the word 'democracy' in your sentences with 'christianity', you will find it is no much different from the faith of your ancestors in medieval time. Well, you know the history better than me: the endless suffering under the holy title of "spreading our religion".
Hehe, again 'spreading our value' is a title so often mentioned by your politicians and journalists. I can only say, it functions to make you people feel superior and satisfied, the same way as in the ancient time.
Although I appreciate some thoughts of christianity and also the basic idea of democracy, I am against any idea of 'end of history'. You are not the god-selected race, not judge of the world, you are not holding anything which is morally superior over other people.
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'maybe if Tibet had been part of the British Empire we could have protected it for a while like with Hong Kong'
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Another point of history: Do you really believe UK 'could have protected Hong Kong'?
The reason why Hong Kong has not been taken by CCP in 1949 has not been mentioned by any offical documents in China, so you can take what I am going to tell as my personal view.
CCP has almost take the whole China in the civil war, with 3 areas left untouched. Taiwan survived because USA offered their 'protection'. It is an island 100 miles off the coast, at that time we did not even have a navy. HongKong and Macao are directly linked to the mainland, no one can 'protect' them.
The reason why HongKong stayed in the British rule till 1997 is due to the estimation made in 1949, that China would be isolated and blocked from all tradings with the west world for a really long time. HongKong can function as a tunnel. This is a high level politic handling which has been agreed by both China and UK without even exchanging a single word: If UK still wish to have HongKong in the kingdom, it should have its "eyes wide shut" upon anything happening between businessman of HongKong and mainland China.
All the above predictions have come truth. Even during the hot war in Korea, when China was fighting against the whole 'Amry of United Nations', large amount of trading was still running through the tunnel of HongKong. Really strange situation, but that is the history. After all, when China turned to "Reform and Openning" policy in 1978, this special historical role of HongKong became less and less important.
Some Indians have thanked UK for building railways etc in the colony time, we won't. But we still have something much more important to thank the west world: you have taught us the rule of jungle: "Once you become backward, you got beaten". This sentence has well entrenched to our memory as the summary of our history in the near-modern era. Do not misinterprete, it only reminds us not to fall backward again.
Back to Taiwan, it is correct if anybody would address the issue to show that China is still weak. Yes we are, it is our shame, it is the reality that USA is still able to harm us, and they are really doing so.
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"The colonial administration hurriedly introduced "democratic reforms" only after attempts to extend British colonial rule failed. After HK was returned to China in 1997, all its top government officials including the chief executive were locals."
-The UK government could not have implemented full democratic reforms earlier as this would be seen as a formal declaration of independence by the mainland and could have led to an invasion.
Even today, although many HK groups are pressuring for greater democracy, factions within the CCP would see this as a dangerous threat.
It had to add on reforms because the HK middles class were scared after Tianamen - the CCP would have no place for them. Because the UK government did not want to give the middle classes asylum in the UK (which they should havem but that's another issue) the attempt to widen democracy while the chance was still there, was offered.
Informal democratic reforms were ongoing under UK rule - with the Legislative Committee opening up the franchise, but once China took over this was repealed and the middle classes lost representation.
So, once again it was the CCP that prevented full democracy in HK.
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"Once you become backward, you got beaten"
-And that also applies to backward political systems such as a one party state, too.
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I lived in China (Tianjin and Beijing) 1985-88, Macao (1990-1994), and Sunde, Guangdong (1999-2000), so some time has passed and my knowledge is therefore a bit dated.
However, when I got my first job from afar -- I'm from the U.S. -- I was both greatly pleased and a little scared. But I was determined to go and to try to immerse myself into every aspect of the country I could penetrate, even if superficially.
During my first stint in China, I married a lady from Beijing. Though we divorced (amicably) seven years later, I do think the years I spent with her and the days and days I spent with her wonderful family in Beijing helped me considerably in my wish to understand a little better.
Emphasis on "little."
Moving this personal narrative to assessing the current political situation, such an assessment is incredibly difficult for Westerners, generally speaking.
For one thing, it *is* difficult to get below the surface in a meaningful way; that was far more true, even in urban areas, in the mid-1980's than it is today. (I do still visit once in awhile.)
For another thing, there seems to be little middle ground on which to assess China in the political sphere. On the one hand, China has made amazing achievements in a mere two generations. An d that was true even as early as my first arrival.
On the other hand, the iron-clad control the Party maintains makes some chafe, even among Chinese, or at least among some of those whom I knew well enough for them to open up to me (guardedly, of course).
The pact is one that Mr. Reynolds has mentioned in his blog (I think): the Party helps the citizenry prosper, and the citizens don't mess with Party control. That seems to have worked quite well, at least in more prosperous regions.
Do the two -- the positive and the negative (or, at least, debatable) cancel each other out?
I submit they don't.
Consider U.S. Secretary of State Clinton's comments today in Beijing in which she de-linked issues, which is standard diplomacy. (Yes, a whole bunch of diplomats, including senior ones, seem to forget that Internal Diplomacy 101 lesson, but it's one that can work. Not all the time. And not always achieving every single result one might desire.
Deng Xiao Ping, who had a real gift for metaphor, used to refer to the China-North Korea relationship as the same as "lips and teeth." Today, the same might be said -- to a degree -- about various of China's relationships with other countries, such as the China-U.S. one.
Further, there have been changes in China that don't seem to make it onto the radar abroad, positive changes, I mean. For instance, last time I was in Beijing I went to the lobby to see if there was an English-language newspaper; there wasn't. So, I started trying to recall enough of the maybe 700-800 characters I had learned in years past as I looked at headlines in local papers, and saw a headline that said something about elections in Beijing. Having not heard a peep about this, I took the paper to the desk clerk and asked if I was correct that the article had something to do with Beijing elections. She proudly told me the last of Beijing's neighborhood committee elections had just concluded and the story was about that. She explained the whole thing to me (don't worry; it's complicated and I won't go into it here), and I was startled, to say the least.
No, these weren't elections in any Western sense. But they for darned sure were a genuine Great Leap Forward, in my view, in that they gave the people a bit of a voice. No megaphone, but a voice.
I think we foreigners have to admit that China has indeed made giant strides in a great many ways since the Open Policy ("Open Door Policy," in the West) was put in place by Deng Xiao Ping.
Does it still have a long ways to go in any number of areas? Yes, as I'm sure an impoverished farmer in, for instance, Gansu Province might readily agree. Corruption is a huge problem. Which brings to mind another point that long pre-dates the Communists: an old Chinese saying holds that "the mountains are high and the Emperor is far away" -- meaning. "to heck with Beijing; we're going to do it our way."
So, assessing China is far more complex than most people realize, unless I'm off in some la-la land, which I don't think I am.
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The Chinese realise their growing economic clout. They understand that they need to change in so many different ways to be successful in the globalized world. Who would have thought that the Chinese would bend themselves backwards to welcome foreigners to their country and give them more access to their ways of life. Admittedly there are still so many inconvenient restrictions to the movement of foreigners but courtesy currently seems to be the new watchword of the Chinese government hosts. This strategy is paying rich dividends and visitors describe their trips to China in glowing terms. An executive student of mine was so enamoured by the Chinese lifestyle that he got married there and has a lucrative job as an engineer in Beijing. That speaks volumes of the way the Chinese have opened their doors to foreigners and their art of hospitality! Who would have imagined this change in the early day of Mao and the Cultural Revolution?
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@Bloofs
"Once you become backward, you got beaten"
That describes the unfair situations for the nations that can not defend themself.
But according to you, "And that also applies to backward political systems such as a one party state, too."
Right. So any countries that havenot developed a western 2 party system are backward and can be subjected to aggressions from democratic countries? So democratic countries are licenced to impose the most inhumane wars(military or non-millitary) on those "backward countries"? This dangerous logic had already lead to many wars and unbelievable sufferring of mankind. China must not copy your brand of democracy. Full stop. One day, China will become a democratic country in her own style. A democracy that allows nations develop at their own pace.
Let us donot forget Nazies were elected into power in a democratic process.
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#139 Bloofs
Of course Britain couldn't "democratise" Hongkong during its 156 years of colonial rule. Otherwise, the colonial rulers would have to leave Hongkong and British Empire would have one less colony!
Now that Hongkong is back under China's sovereignty, naturally China would like to have a say in the pace of its democratic reforms.
I can see that the majority of Hongkong people are happy right now. Many of those who migrated to western countries have returned to Hongkong. Many Hongkong professionals now work in mainland China. A few vocal "democratic" activists are not representative of Hongkong people's feelings.
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#136 Bloofs
Hongkong is as free today as it was before 1997 handover. Mainland Chinese today have far more freedom than at any other time since 1949.
In 2008, Hongkong is ranked No.12 in the Corruption Perceptions Index compiled by Transparency International. The UK is ranked No. 16, China No. 72, and India No. 85.
Hongkong remains very prosperous today under Chinese sovereignty. Hongkong has been and still is a financial centre. It has never been a technological hub. Its prosperity has been and still is to a large extent dependent on the mainland.
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"An executive student of mine was so enamoured by the Chinese lifestyle that he got married there and has a lucrative job as an engineer in Beijing. That speaks volumes of the way the Chinese have opened their doors to foreigners and their art of hospitality!"
-I take it your friend isn't too bothered by the fact that the democracy and freedom of speech he enjoyed back home isn't available to the Chinese people, or the Tibetan people, then.
Foreigners have more opportunities in China than ever before, but there is a glass ceiling. Foreigners will never be given the very top jobs in China.
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@ 148
-Not sure if this will get past moderation, sometimes they say the board is closed and delete the messages, other times they let them through. Inconsistent. So I cannot spend too much time on my reply in case it doesn't get through.
"Hongkong is as free today as it was before 1997 handover. Mainland Chinese today have far more freedom than at any other time since 1949."
-Not true, the Legislative Committee franchise was being opened up to the middle classes - these reforms were repealed after takeover. I'd give other examples but I'm not sure this post will make it through moderation so I don't want to waste my time.
And saying Mainlanders have more freedom is like saying a man is doing better because he is in boiling water instead of boiling oil.
Try telling mainland Christians in underground churches or true Catholics, Tibetans or Falun Gong members they have freedom.
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@Bloofs
No country gives its very top job to foreingners.
Heard of Zhang Dan Hong's story? That tells me what "freedom of speech" is about. One has to have the ideas that is generated from the same set of value to enjoy the freedom of speech. Zhang simply got into trouble for speaking out her own opinion which was different from the western mainstream.
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#151 Bloofs
Hongkong's freedom should not be measured solely by the existence or otherwise of a legislature hurriedly introduced by the departing colonial rulers a few months before July 1997.
The fact that mainland Chinese have greater freedom today than at any other time since 1949 is well documented. Even US former President GW Bush hailed "the amazing changes for the better" that have taken place in China since his first visit to the country in 1975, saying Chinese people can now make their own decisions.
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soft power is important .china is great nation with strong soft power ,but we don't do that so good for a centry.
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