Serfs' Emancipation Day
There's a simple, easy way for governments across the world to lock into place their own particular views of history: create a national holiday.
I was in the Green Zone in Baghdad in July 2003 to cover the first ever meeting of the Iraqi Governing Council, following the fall of Saddam Hussein. The council needed to make its mark quickly. So its first interim president opened the proceedings by declaring a new national holiday: 9 April - Baghdad Liberation Day. The audience cheered.
In Chile, the military government of General Augusto Pinochet made the anniversary of his coup - 11 September - a national holiday. On this day citizens were ordered to place Chilean national flags outside their homes (opponents of the military regime, at great risk, often refused to do so). When democracy returned to Chile in 1990, this national holiday was abolished.
In the Middle East, the same event - the creation of the state of Israel in May 1948 - is marked by contrasting commemorations. Israel celebrates Independence Day, while Palestinians mark Nakba (or Catastrophe) Day.
China already has its own independence day holiday - 1 October. The country also celebrates the Chinese New Year and then Labour Day in May. But in its most contested region the government has decided that one more holiday is needed.
The parliament in Tibet, which is loyal to Beijing, has just passed a bill by unanimous consent. From now on, 28 March will be celebrated every year in Tibet as Serfs' Emancipation Day. China has picked this date to commemorate the day that the Communist Party announced the dissolution of the Dalai Lama's government structure in Tibet in 1959 - following the escape into exile of the Dalai Lama a few days beforehand. China says that this dissolution freed about 1 million Tibetans from serfdom and slavery.
China's position on Tibet is built on two beliefs: firstly, that Tibet is an integral part of Chinese sovereign territory; secondly, that the Chinese Communist Party liberated the Tibetan people from the oppressive, feudal rule of the Dalai Lama. China is keen to promote its beliefs - particularly because the 50th anniversary of the Dalai Lama's escape is just a few weeks away (the 49th anniversary a year ago led to widespread protests). Creating a new national holiday locks the official Chinese position into the calendar.
Tibetan groups in exile see it all very differently. For them, the events of March 1959 and the exile of the Dalai Lama from his homeland were a tragedy. One exile group has called the new holiday an effort at rewriting history which is provocative and irresponsible.
PS: I'm back from my New Year train trip and am busy putting together all the material my colleague and I recorded along the way.
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~46~RS~)
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You mentioned Tibet - that should keep the normal assortment of chinese flag wavers busy.
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This is risky.
Hope the Tibetan people will celebrate, but not protest, on that day.
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Well done China. A day when last slavery in china has been abandoned. It should be celebrated.
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Since most Tibetans live outside Tibet and actually live in the rest of China will they get this holiday too?
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It is good that the date does not clash with that of 10 March. Otherwise the official function (if any were to take place) would clash with the rioters, causing unnecessary blood shed among Tibetans themselves.
It is true that the abolishment of the serf system that prevailed then was a good service for a large section of Tibetans. Those who had gone through those difficult days can tell how hard the life was under those serf owners, who in deed were cruel, merciless and did not have even a slightest of compassion.
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Looking forward to reading about your train trip, James. Hope you enjoyed Henan.
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Just to point out - Serfs' Emancipation Day is not going to be a national day, as it's only for the Tibet region.
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This is a celebration about the Communist Party alone and nothing to do with Tibet, its just another way to reinforce its position in Tibet. They say Tibet has always been part of China, but wasn't Mongolia part of the Qing empire and left china at the same time as Tibet, and there is also Korea and vietnam. Tibet was an easy target. The cheek for the CPC to call it liberation day when its on the contrary.
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I like the insinuation you make that the Serf government didn't take place. It's hardly surprising that the Monks are in uproar about it when they are of course accused of being part of it. Why is it that with any reporting of the issues in Tibet, we never seem to be getting the full truth. China is always accused of propaganda (possibly rightly so), but the western media is exactly the same. With a little less propaganda it could possibly be believable, but the amount of biased repotings in favour of the Dalai Lama and the government in exile (what does that even mean? Surely they're just exiles) makes it hard to swallow.
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For those of you who do not believe either China or Tibetan-in-excil, independent historian Michael Parenti gives his independent findings on his website. Just google his name, you will be directed to his web. Here is some abstraction from that site:
"Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. These estates were owned by two social groups: the rich secular landlords and the rich theocratic lamas. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.” Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.”
One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.”18 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.
The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery."
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China has more national holidays than the three mentioned - New Year's Day, Tomb Sweeping Day, Dragon Boat Festival, and Mid-Autumn Festival.
That Tibet is an integral part of Chinese sovereign territory is recognised by all countries having diplomatic ties with PRC or ROC. It's also a position taken by ROC (Taiwan).
The oppressive feudal rule of the Dalai Lama before 1959 where most Tibetans 'lived' as serfs/slaves is not just a 'Chinese belief', it's well documented.
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why no mention of the 4th of july? or it just doesnt fit in with your picking and choosing of examples?
is there any doubt about the abolition of serfdom?
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I thought the liberation was in 1951. So the government is saying that it took them 8 years to do it? Or is it that Tibetans had no freedom until the Dalai Lama left, meaning the CCP had no intention of honouring agreements made with Tibetan authorities in 1951?
The timing of it might distract a little from the other March anniversary in Tibet. I'm sure the CCP knows that this won't exactly convince the rioters of last year.
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How fitting for Tibetans to be granted a new holiday with such a grand name. Tibetans should be grateful to their new masters for their generosity. Hope readers are aware of ground reality in Tibet today. They are not even celebrating their biggest holiday Tibetan New Year to mourn the deaths of last years uprising and for all those who are in prisons being tortured. Armies are on the roof, in the street ready to shoot. Just to intimidate Tibetans. Chinese leaders can’t fool the world anymore. By the way, term such as serf only serves their only legitimacy to occupy and rule Tibet. How pathetic. Very sad for Tibetans. My relatives don’t want to call them anymore because of fear of Chinese listening. Glad I don’t live in Tibet under brutal communist Chinese regime.
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some points for discussion:
hasn't the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) replaced one oppression with another?
Isn't this a political diversionary tactic seeing that this year is littered with important dates for groups with legitimate grievences against the CCP, e.g. Tibetans, Falun Gong, May Fourth Movement?
Although you will get comments that rally behind the CCPs decisions, whether from the 'fifty cent group' (is that their correct title?) or not, the problem still lies in the fact that I believe the CCP will do whatever it takes to hold on to power, anything. I guess the phrase, hearts and minds' comes to my mind, that is what they are trying to control in my opinion. We are going to hear the Party line from commenters, the recycling of Xinhua, CCTV, etc, etc, but that is a given. I believe that China has heart and soul, and a cultural heritage that does not belong to the CCP who destoyed a large part of it, my question will be to all those who believe in China as a nation as I do, who write a comment, can you find an opinion that isn't the Chinese Communist Party's?
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Unfortunately, the Tibetan people will now be forced to participate in a holiday they do not support. I traveled to Tibet two years ago where I witnessed the tight control that the Chinese government had on these people. Those circling the Jokang Temple, a holy pilgrimage site, were watched by police stationed in many spots around the temple.
No one said that their lives were better. Villages have been emptied and families moved to roadside homes in order to create an easy view of Tibetan life for tourists.
Many stated their wishes for the return of their culture and the Dalai Lama, especially. Certainly, if their view of history were one of suppression and slavery, not to say it didn't happen, their desire for the past would not be so strong!
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The Tibet issue seems to be the single biggest issue that invites the anti-China brigade out to play, and the author of this blog likes to be the piped piper.
Just as comments against the CCP cannot be taken to be criticism of the Chinese people in general, by the same token, support for the policies of the Chinese government should not be misconstrued as somehow pontificating party lines.
Those who argue against what the Chinese are perceived to be doing in Tibet should consider, carefully, the following point:
Where are the native Americans?
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An interesting phenomenon: journalists, politicians, actors, movie directors and other celebrities make up most of the Dalai Lama fans on the media. While true historians either keep silence or, speak for the truth. But do historians get all the attention? Noooooo....
See American historian Michael Parenti's "Tibet: Friendly Fuedalism?" on Youtube.
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If you belong to that 95% slave, you will celebrate on that day. For other people, like the ignorant British and that 5% Tibetan, You may call it tragedy
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Short of a violent takeover by another party, there's no way the CCP will ever let go of Tibet.
Sure the activists may rant and complain and so forth, but let's face it, would the Western powers risk a conflict with China over just one little territory up in the mountains? China has the U.S. by the b***s, pardon my language, and the U.K. can't even solve its own problems. I suppose the combined might of the E.U. will do, but what's in it for them? Is there oil in Tibet?
The best thing the Tibetan nationalists could hope for is a collapse of the Chinese economy. The way things are going right now, if current trends remain the same for the next 2 years, The CCP will have so many dissatisfied chinese citizens marching on the streets to even notice if Tibetans overthrow the local chinese overlord and put the Dalai Lama back in place.
Sounds selfish, huh>?
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No one can credibly and objectively deny that life under the DL in Tibet prior to the CCP was one of Middle Ages serfdom existing during the 20th Century.
Further, no one can credibly and objectively deny that Western interest in Tibet is not mainly driven by interest in bringing positives to Tibet, but mainly by interest in bringing negatives to a strengthening China. This is a global chess middle game ... Tibet is the pawn, we can argue all we like about whether it is a black pawn or a white pawn, but the fact that it is a pawn is irrefutable.
The West would like nothing better than for Tibetans to drink their own kool-aid and convince themselves of the notion that there's a Crusade for Tibetan "freedom" here. But the true goals of this Crusade are crystal clear to the Chinese ... a Crusade to maintain a Western grip on global hegemony; a Crusade to chop down the awaking dragon before it fully wakes and alerts, and is able to defend itself.
The CCP is the first and only government that's empowered the Chinese people to effectively stand up against the global designs of the West.
The political intent to time a rightful announcement does not diminish the rightfulness of the message. See. e.g., Antietam & The Emancipation Proclaimation (freeing slaves in the Southern States after the "victory" at Antietam). Serfs were freed in Tibet. It is right to mark a day in celebration of such an "emancipating" event.
Fittingly, today, we remember that America, after the 13th and 14th Amendments, went to Jim Crow before arriving at MLK and Obama's presidency. Yet no one can argue that the 13th and 14th Amendments were not righteous in their own rights. Hence, despite the imperfections of the CCP, the path of China is aimed toward a better tomorrow for all Chinese, Han or any of the 50+ minorities that are a part of China's cultural and ethnic diversity.
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You are winding us up topbear1974 I hope!
Unfortunately there is plenty of slavery going on in China and Tibet, all of it run by the Communist party.
Slavery in Tibet disappeared around 1905, and even then it was only very small and mild. Nothing compared to the inhumane slavery that was universal throughout China at the time. USA only banned slavery in 1863. in 1913 the 13th Dalai Lama officially banned capital punishment and other forms of “cruel and unusual” punishments; possibly making Tibet one of the first countries in the world to do so.
And what about the "Education through hard labour" camps, is that not slavery? Speak to Tibetans that have been imprisoned and tortured in the dispicable Chinese prisons, they will tell you how they are forced to make cheap goods for export.
Its disgraceful, provocative and you wont see any Tibetans celebrating it. Though I am sure CCTV will come up with some reasuring tv footage for the news...
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Why has there been so little coverage of the announcement by the UK Government that it now recognizes China's annexation of Tibet and that Tibet is an integral part of China.
This in return for China's support for Gordon Brown's proposals for co-ordinated action for global economic stimulus to offset the credit crunch.
The soveriegnty of an invaded nation enslaved in their own country seems a small price to pay. Why does everyone look the other way?
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So just because Tibet operated under a system of serfdom, that justifies the Chinese invasion does it? Of course, the Chinese will then say that Tibet was a part of China for hundreds of years. Well, wasn't Vietnam a part of China for a thousand years too before they gained their freedom from the aggressors? Maybe they would put up more of a fight against Chinese aggression.
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Read any non-partisan Tibetologist's work and they will say Tibet was both independent, and a part of China. Even construing what China is and was is a grey area in itself so I find it completely pointless for people to debate about this issue when experts say it is non-concrete.
Yes, there were serfs (95% of the Tibetan population) happy to be liberated and were allowed to own land.
Yes, there were serfs unhappy to be stripped of their religious attachments - as with all of China.
It is a bit of both. I've lived in the West and have only heard ONE side of the story, the hollywood conventional Free Tibet version. There is more and more effort to nurture cultural heritage in China. The cultural revolution was devasastating for Chinese culture and tradition, let's all move forward and work together on this.
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CCP has been deceiving the Chinese people, the Tibetans and the people of the world for all these years. I find it pathetic still there are millions getting carried away by CCP's propaganda. When China invaded Tibet in 1949 they called it " liberation". They say they are pouring billions of dollars of aid money for Tibet. In fact they looted all the minerals, oil and forest of Tibet worth billions much more than they say they are giving to Tibet. Even then the money given to Tibet is to facilitate the occupation of Tibet and millions of Hans to resettle in Tibet. If CCP had 'emancipated' the Tibetans 50 years ago, Why did the Tibetans all over the plateau revolt against it's rule during last Spring? If the Tibetans are against Dalai Lama, why do Tibetans in and outside revere him even after 50 years of his escape from Tibet?
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Proof is in the pudding as they say.
Ask the Tibetans in and outside Tibet whether they were 'emanscipated' by Chinese comies?
Only ignorant people will buy what the Chinese comies will say.
Even Dalai Lama says the system of government Tibet had was not perfect at all.
Dalai Lama had introduced democratic system of government in exile since 1961.
Even in this 21st century China has totalitarian communist system. Is this sign of highly civilized country?
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So, the Chinese governments can organize more fanfares on the day, from parades to junk/flea markets to performances to sport competitions to local fashion shows to culture exhibitions etc. etc. so people’s minds will be preoccupied…
Do lamas get days off in holidays?
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At 10:22am on 19 Jan 2009, zickyyy wrote:
This is risky.
Hope the Tibetan people will celebrate, but not protest, on that day.
----
The ex slaves will celebrate but the exile slave owners would probable do something else.
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30. At 5:50pm on 19 Jan 2009, Senlin wrote:
So just because Tibet operated under a system of serfdom, that justifies the Chinese invasion does it? Of course, the Chinese will then say that Tibet was a part of China for hundreds of years. Well, wasn't Vietnam a part of China for a thousand years too before they gained their freedom from the aggressors? Maybe they would put up more of a fight against Chinese aggression.
---------
Why do you call it 'invasion' , as you know Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years. Do you mean Tibet should be independent even it was under a system of serfdom, even it has been a part of China for hundreds of years, even the ex Tibet slaves now have had better lives.
What's your point?
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GNRChineseDemocracy wrote:
Its disgraceful, provocative and you wont see any Tibetans celebrating it. Though I am sure CCTV will come up with some reasuring tv footage for the news...
--------How can you so sure?
Have you been to Tibet? Have you met a real Tibetan not the exile Tibetans?
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Bulluson wrote:
If you belong to that 95% slave, you will celebrate on that day. For other people, like the ignorant British and that 5% Tibetan, You may call it tragedy
----I strongly agree!
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mauser1898 wrote:
An interesting phenomenon: journalists, politicians, actors, movie directors and other celebrities make up most of the Dalai Lama fans on the media. While true historians either keep silence or, speak for the truth. But do historians get all the attention? Noooooo....
See American historian Michael Parenti's "Tibet: Friendly Fuedalism?" on Youtube.
-----
and 'Tibet: The Truth (A Political History)' by Monarex on Youtube.
I think the reason nobody know the truth is because the media has been tried to brainwash the people. In the cold war, the US government had put the massive efforts and expense into their propaganda machines. They have been successfully made people believe the old Tibet was a Shangri-La. It is not surprise, if you think about Iraq war, they said they were looking for weapons of mass destruction.
If you check the US government website, you can find the CIA reports about how they trained and armed the Tibetans to against Chinese government. The funny thing is DALAI Lama has been traveling around the western world to promote 'non-violence'.
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yes, for 95% of tibetans, this is a day to celebrate. However , for DaLai Lama, this maybe a tragedy because he lost nearly all his previledge and power.
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Fundamentally, this talk of serfs and feudalism ignores the right of the Tibetans to sort out their own problems and govern their own affairs. What right does China have to try and solve Tibets' 'inequalities'? Of course, under the Communist party of China there is no corruption or exploitation, of course.... Certainly no democracy, anyway. The tibetans do not want China's 'help' - they never did. Yet it has been forced upon them through the barrel of a gun.
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"The CCP is the first and only government that's empowered the Chinese people to effectively stand up against the global designs of the West."
-Good grief, the opium wars were a long time ago. The only thing the CCP is interested in, is power and maintaining power. If they are so confident of the love of the Chinese people, why not have a real democracy and put CCP forward as an electable entity?
The CCP have no respect for the spiritual needs of the Chinese, or of Chinese history or culture - (look at all the historic buildings and areas demolished in Beijing - and the banning of Falun Gong which was popular with millions of ordinary Chinese) if anything they are actually pushing Western-style consumerism in order to justify their over-long stay in power.
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luhkyuht wrote:
This is a celebration about the Communist Party alone and nothing to do with Tibet, its just another way to reinforce its position in Tibet. They say Tibet has always been part of China, but wasn't Mongolia part of the Qing empire and left china at the same time as Tibet, and there is also Korea and vietnam. Tibet was an easy target. The cheek for the CPC to call it liberation day when its on the contrary.
-----The one thing different since early 13 century, Tibet has been under China's government. This history is even longer than the US.
Why is Texas not independent? What is your point?
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In reply to #30:
Vietnam was ever a part of China? LOL, we never even learned this from school. Vietnam used to be one of the tributory countries of Ancient China. They paid tribute to the Chinese emperor on special occasions. These countries were independent, because ancient China never laid a hand on their internal affairs. Tibet has been a totally different matter.
BTW, "invasion" would be a wrong word.
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Emancipation,liberation, or whatever you called, day, to celebrate our CCP's great achievement, how fitting it is!!!
Next, we will have days for the emancipation, or liberation of Uyghur, Mongols, Vietnamese, Koreans, Taiwanese, and all the people we are going to liberate, if we have not done so.
Chairman Mao said, we will liberate all human beings on earth!!!!
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Hi James
Just read your report on the Serfs' Emancipation Day. And from the tone of the article it's quite apparent that you disagree with the 'two blieves' of the "Chinese government".
You said " China says that this move freed about one million Tibetans from serfdom and slavery.
But Tibetan groups in exile see it all very differently. For them, the events of March 1959 and the exile of the Dalai Lama from his homeland were a tragedy. "
You conveniently forgot one thing - those fled with Dalai Lama were senior monks and of 'higher caste' groups under the serfdom led by Dalai. What they said and may still say does NOT represent majority of the people in Tibet, who were slaves under Dalai and co., a fact the Western media has always tried to avoid.
We quite appreciate that the British PC does not allow you to say anything otherwise, but to argue with perversion of truth is quite a different matter.
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To sheriffCartman of Post #13
I agree with you.
The Chinese government has published various forms of literatures and materials on the past of Tibet, or rather the Tibet under Dalai Lama. Why haven't we seen any, I do mean ANY, publication by either the Tibetens in exile or the Western pro-Tibet groups, or the likes of BBC, on what Tibet was like 50 years ago?
Come on, anyone with an answer?
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Where are native American???
CCP has done a good job from this perception .
We should take a objective attitude toward it.
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Thank you so much for bringing this one up, Mr. Reynolds.
It is inexcusable, unjustifiable that China had waited for so long to create a national holiday to commemorate the emancipation of million of Chinese minority group from serfdom and slavery. What a shame. They should have done that a long long time ago.
It is a huge 'human rights' issue here. If you think I am kidding you, just google "the Tibet myth".
If you are a serious journalist (vs. a tabloid one), you shouldn't just ignore the historical fact. Please write something about Tibetan Lama's horrific crimes against humanity, so that all Chinese people can understand why they deserve a day off.
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If China really believes that it liberated Tibet from the fuedal rule of the Dalai Lama, I guess it should have no problem when another country's liberates its people from Communist rulers. But why then are the Chinese oppressing the Tibetans...I mean killing the Tibetans.
But then, China has a supporter in George Bush. Afterall he liberated Iraq from Saddam and its OK to contune oppressing Iraqis who disagree.
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That is interesting. People from freeTibet organization just mentioned that Tibet TRIED to abolish the death penalty before 1950. Now somebody claimed that it also abolished the serf system. ~~~~~~
Let us guess when will they claim that the old tibet was actually democracy?
Dear James Reynolds, does your knowledge of Tibet come from Seven Years in Tibet?
By the way, do you celebrate Columbus's day each year? Is it a great holiday?
You are really really a good example of conscience and justice and human rights, as well as the great independent and objective BBC you work for!
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I have to agree with Post 29 in that there has been amazingly little coverage on UK government's announcement that it now acknowledges that Tibet is an integral part of China. I bet most people in UK do not even know that. Does this government really represent its people? Is BBC doing a fair job reporting all aspects of Tibet if it does not even report its own government's announcement of position on this?
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One can argue that the "feudal system" (placed in brackets cause I don't know too much about Tibetan history) meant more suffering than the current implemented Chinese system. Based on the numerous comments above that is the conclusion I got.
So therefore.. okay fair enough, the people are better off than before.
The reason everyone is so unsettled (mainly Tibetans and activists I believe) is there is a better system than the one imposed by the Chinese. Its called democracy.
I welcome all Western-bashers after this post.. its funny that you don't know what you're missing out on.
There is a thing called government statements. There is also a thing called reality. Wake up people, you are not a victim. You are just not fighting enough for a better future. Doubting every single government move in a democratic system pays off, indigesting everything like sheep is not.
But there is one good thing about the CCP, it can get things done (quickly than most, if not all democratic nations can ever hope for). Whether its the right move or not is another story.
.. and #27 reminded me of those paid pro-Chinese posters for some "odd" reason.
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# 30.Senlin,
Vietnam was broken away from China by the French, if you know a little bit history. There are lots of places in China that used to be independent, just like the U.S. Chinese history is full of bloody conflicts between these kingdoms, just like the U.K. I know a lot western people want to see that happen again.
History tells us that when the Chinese central governments were strong, they hold Tibet under control. When the central governments were weakened, some Tibetan officials would try to break away. There were conflicts within Tibet even in those times, pro-independence and pro-China.
Now, in the foreseeable future, I don't see the collapse of the Chinese government, even though it is indeed the dear hope of many people here. You can see that from the international media's coverage on the financial crisis. From what I can see, the Chinese government took much more decisive and effective actions to help the national economy, it was labeled as "to prevent widespread of riots and protests". In the UK and US, where these problems originated and are even worse, people seem to accept their fate about another economic cycle. The democracy system might have spoiled your politicians!
Back to the Tibetan-in-exile issue, it is indeed a tragedy for them. They used to own the lands and serfs. They were deprived of their privileges in 1958, during the land-reform, in which the lands were handed to their previous subjects. How sad and how poor...
They live in a miserable life now as well. They are not granted Indian citizenship, even the younger generation were born in India and can speak perfect Indo-English, which was by the way recorded in last year's riot.
If Chinese government decided to let them come back into Tibet, what will they do? Work for a life??
As far as I can see, this poses a thorny issue for India. In the foreseeable future, it might have to accept these people as Indians...
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Interesting development. I guess many of the ethnic Tibetans will rejoice over this celebration (assuming the serf / landlord ratio in old Tibet is 9:1). A few will be gnashing their teeth though.
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James,
I was backpacking through rural Amdo and Kham Tibet in Sichuan and Qinghai province in the summer of 2007, and despite the negativity China receives from the Western media about Tibet, China did do some good things for Tibet. For example, infrastructure, education, and communication has greatly improved since the Chinese takeover. On the other hand, however, I talked with lamas and monks who witnessed the Chinese burn down their monastery during the cultural revolution during the 60s and 70s as well as the killing of innocent Tibetans during those tumultuous periods. I think that all views must be balanced, and know that there are good and bad to every side.
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@James and those who do not believe there was serfdom and slavery in Tibet before 1949.
Can you answer me a question? Before 1949 1/5 of Tibetan's male population was in monastories. Why so? To be a monk, one has to leave his family and will not have family of his own. Why leaving family and not to have family of your own so attractive? There are whole heartly religious people in every single religion in this world, it seems to me that none of these religions has 1/5 of its population to be work free full time monks/priests. Why it only happened in Tibet?
How was 1/5 of male population of Tibet who lived in splendid palaces and temples and did not work supported by the rest of the population? what kind of TAX they had to pay? Tibet, the mountainous place in high altitude did not and still does not yield as much as those fertile plains. Tibet was an isolated place with backward productivity. Can anyone tell me how did Tibetans manage to feed, clothe, and house 1/5 of their work-free male population? If it was not through slavery/serfdom then how? It sounds like some are promoting the idea that Tibet was a heaven like place before 1949. So how was it managed? Probably all governments should learn from Dalai Lama, with our much more advanced productivity of today then at least 1/5 of the male/female population can go on for a workfree life without causing taxpayers too much stress.
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@ those mentioned the so call Tibetans' uprising.
I suggest you google CIA in Tibet.
It is well documented that Tibet uprising is a CIA game and those participated were mostly nobles or semi-nobles. Even with CIA 's direct involvement ( financing, training, organising, providing weapons, airdropping fighters) the uprising was crushed by PLA within 2 days. CIA concluded that the uprising failed due to the fact that there was no participation/support from the general Tibetan population.
Dalai Lama remained on CIA payroll until 1974. NED took over shortly after. NED continues to do somewhat overtly what the CIA had been doing for decades without the stigma associated with CIA.
Tibet has been a great game of 2 big countries. At different stages there were diffferent needs. It will continue. With China becoming stronger and stronger, uncle Sam will one day realise the Tibetan card is of very little use. So, good luck.
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@ Midnight 26
"The best thing the Tibetan nationalists could hope for is a collapse of the Chinese economy. The way things are going right now, if current trends remain the same for the next 2 years, The CCP will have so many dissatisfied chinese citizens marching on the streets to even notice if Tibetans overthrow the local chinese overlord and put the Dalai Lama back in place. "
Is this also what you are wishing for China? A collapsed economy, social and political unrest, and the country break into pieces? We now know what the real motives are and whether you have ever considered Chinese people's interests. Let us wait and see what happens.
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To tasselying
Yes I have been to Tibet. I am married to a Tibetan, I know Tibetans who were in Tibet before the Chinese invasion and afterwards.
I know Tibetans that have risked their lives crossing the Himilayas by foot so they can have an education, a job and most importantly see His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
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@ bbtyeh
LOL, it's the haughty attitude, if you espouse an anti-Chinese view with it, you're British. If you espouse a pro-Chinese attitude, you're a paid Chinese web-soldier.
RE: proof is in the pudding
Note Post 60's somewhat balanced assessment. The Pudding is NOT the number of Tibetan exiled elite paraded in front of Western cameras, telling their upper-echelon sob-story to gullible Western viewers. The pudding, is the objective assessment Tibet's well-being today based on improved services, infrastructure, and standard of living.
However, to Post 60, let us also note that the CR was not a China destroying Tibet problem, but an massive error which was a China destroying China problem. What I mean is that what happened in Tibet in the 60's and 70's happened everywhere in China, it was not descriminatory, it was nation-wide chaos.
All Chinese today fully admit that the CR was grave and serious error. But let's not imply that it was simply done to the Tibetans out of discrimination or repression against their group only.
All China suffered. But all China, Tibet included, has since risen to stand tall today.
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We Chinese (including Tibetans) believe in "those who succeed become king while the failed bandit". What we are told may not be exactly the truth, but we don't care since we are offerred a better life, so do Tibetans. All of us should thank to CCP & its government, esp. Tibetans. Most Tibetans, before so called Serfs' Emancipation Day, really lead a very terrible life. If Dalai was still in power of Tibet, he must be a dictator, not a likely human righter in eyes of the westerners.
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Post #26
"The way things are going right now, if current trends remain the same for the next 2 years............"
At least someone is realistic - the only 'hope' for Tibet to fall into the 'western orbit' is a collapse of the Chinese economy. It also means that they 'missed the boat' in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Too bad, the Chinese economy will regain momentum in the 2nd quarter of 2009.
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Of course I am not winding you up GNRChineseDemocracy.
The average life expectation during serfs time in tibet is 31. Now it is doubled to 60. Fact is fact.
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Reply to #67.. hahah sorry I was feeling stressed out that day. Excuse my harsh words.
Yet the funny thing is, I am just a dissatisfied Chinese living in Fujian province.
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Yes, that's a holiday for Tibetans only, not national Day. National Day is only one, that is, 1st October and is meant for all Chinese including 55 small ethnic groups.
It's a Day to remember for Tibetans and it's good for them to have one more holiday with wages paid.
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Dalia and those Tibetan-in-exciles (the offsprings of ex-landlords, lamas and serf owners) must be very sad with this blog, because the truth being reached to more and more people:
Communist China crashed the serf system of Tibet in 1959!
What a pity thing to them!
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@ 43 Bloofs:
Yes the Cold War as we know it is over. But it is delusional to think that East-West mistrust and animosity is entirely dead. Tibet is still a pawn in the great game, just as easily captured by Player A as it is sacrificed by Player B.
Chinese culture happens to be far more than buildings or the FLG. Chinese culture is alive and well, despite the mistakes of the CR, because China is alive and well and unified, not fragmented and disorganized.
Tibet's greatest value to the West today is in the PR war/anti-China campaign. To think that it is anything more is, at best, grossly naive.
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#70 topbear1974
What a ridiculous statistic, you can say that about any country in the world. The life expectancy has not increased because of the "caring" communist party.
In UK life expectancy was 47 and now it is 77. So what.
Go to India and see the schools, monastries, businesses and democratic government the Tibetans have built in exile.
Stop excusing the oppression of the Tibetan people with these ridiculous arguements of slavery, CIA and "look how happy they are now".
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James:
I am looking forward to reading about your train trip, James. Hope you enjoyed Henan.
~Dennis Junior~
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@60
Unfortunately you still fell for the classic tibetan exile propaganda.
You said, "however, I talked with lamas and monks who witnessed the Chinese burn down their monastery during the cultural revolution during the 60s and 70s".
Those who burned the monasteries are indeed Chinese citizens. However, to be more precise, most of them are tibetan chinese citizens. These tibetan red guards are just like the other han chinese red guards, caught the revolutionary ferver at the time. The red guards destroyed monasteries, tibetan or chinese, all over China. They believed in the freedom from the spiritual jail set up by the parasitic religious establishment.
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Manpet: you are sadly deluding yourself. The vehement arguments here from Chinese (and those with Chinese parentage of foreign nationality), simply re-affirm any suspicions that the Chinese loyalists are unsympathetic, unwilling to listen and one-sided in any discussion about Tibet. I did not see one balanced argument from the Chinese. For example, an acknowledgement of the devastation caused to Tibetan culture balanced with the benefits to the standard of living would have been sensible. Instead, we get post after post of CCP rhetoric.
If this is the face of a Chinese world order where only one side to a story may exist, then I'll stick with Mr Obama thank you.
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Some are trying to make Tibetan government in exile look like a democracy. With Dalai Lama as both political and religious leader, his close family members taking important positions in the government in exile, Monks having two votes and ordinary Tibetans in exiles only having one vote, religious schools attaching to the government this government is a complete church combining state dictatorship. It is a thorough religious rule that does not exist anywhere else on the planet.
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I somehow don't think this whole thing is a good idea. It's pretty clear there are problems in Tibet - no matter how CCP and Chinese media portrays it - so this won't exactly help things. Throwing a few pictures of people dancing around on the state media is hardly representative. There is bound to be a lot of angry sentiment and memories there still.
Yes, the system in Tibet before was not good and the Dalai Lama accepts that now (and I think all non-Chinese media not just "Western" ignores this part of history) - and there have been improvements in lifestyle since then from the central government. However, investing loads of money into the region and quoting all kinds of figures is ignoring the facts. Similarly, the line of argument that it would return to its serfdom days if China gave Tibet autonomy/independence is ridiculous - how do you know? It's becoming all too obvious the people there are unhappy - the fact there have been riots/uprisings (whatever you want to call them) there on several occasions since the 1950's is testament to that. Simply throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away. You could have the best education or housing possible, but that doesn't change the fact they have little political/civil rights - then again that's not just a problem with Tibet, but with China as a whole.
It's narrow minded to consider any criticism of the governmment policies as "anti-China" - it is not "anti-China". I don't have any interest in breaking up China - there are fundamental issues here however, and using a day for this purpose just seems an excuse to legitimise rule and create an invisible barrier between Tibetans in and out of Tibet. Fundamental issues are of course, human rights - as written the UN Charter and Chinese constitution, but are to a large extent ignored. Now I'm not hugely familiar with Chinese history, but I have seen some compare the "Tibet is a part of China" argument to "Scotland is a part of the UK." - which it is obviously. However, they assume it would never be allowed to declare independence by England. This is totally wrong, they are even holding a referendum on it sometime soon - it is their right. However the point is in a country like China as it is now, this would not be possible for Tibet to do the same. The people there who are rioting are doing so because there is no other way to get their voices heard. The only diplomatic channels that were open were the talks between the Tibetan exiles and Chinese govt. but they are going nowhere. I have no opinion on whether it should be independent or not - maybe a similar set up like HK would suffice for now?
Overall I'm saying there are better (but certainly not perfect) systems of government out there - democracy, and everything that comes with it. However, if the CCP continues enforcing policies like this, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear of more uprisings in the future.
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To #21. wkeupchna:
May Fourth Movement was in 1919, 2 years before the Chinese communist was founded. And, it was the May Fourth Movement that gave birth to the Chinese communist movement. Obviously, you need to do more history study.
to #19, Xlbfan ,
You posted a very good point. What was the Dalai Lama doing during these 8 years between 1950-1958?
You know that, he was drinking with Mao and attending all banquets with all the Chinese generals. He was officially the vise-chairman of the Communist China for 8 years. You can easily find these types of pictures online.
Why did he stage the "uprising" and subsequently flee in 1959? Timing... The landform in Tibet started only one year earlier in 1958. Tibet was the last area in China that land-reform took place because of the sensitive religious issue. I think the Chinese leadership took thiese things seriously.
I understand Dalai Lama’s frustration...If I had a lifestyle like that, I would fight to the last minutes before death before giving up too...
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#14 and #24 mention the views of historian Michael Parenti of being independent and unbiased. It is interesting that he is just as negative about the modern Chinese role in Tibet as he is about old Tibet. In fact he seems unable to decide which is worse. From the concluding paragraphs of his "Friendly Feudalism":
To welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today’s Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime...
...
Finally, let it be said that if Tibet’s future is to be positioned somewhere within China’s emerging free-market paradise, then this does not bode well for the Tibetans...
If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet’s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was.
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So some westerners have decided that Tibet should be an independent country or an autonomic region within China?
Who decides at the end?
It sounds that the Chinese are all brainwashed and unqualified to give their opinions on Tibet which is part of their country recognised by all countries in this world. The Chinese government ofcourse is a criminal has no rights to say a thing. The Tibetans in Exiles seems to represent all Tibetans. Also monks' interest must be the same with ordinary Tibetans. I wonder what do those ordinary Tibetans think? During the land reform who got the land and who lost? Is communist government's decision to strip the land from monasteries and redistributed it still going to be valid when Dalai Lama and Tibetan upper class return to Tibet?
What a romantic discussion is going on in this forum.
Probably the decision should be made by westerners and Tibetans in exiles.
Let us all wait and see what happens in next 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
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@ flying-toaster
Quote from your post.
"It's becoming all too obvious the people there are unhappy - the fact there have been riots/uprisings (whatever you want to call them) there on several occasions since the 1950's is testament to that. "
"The people there who are rioting are doing so because there is no other way to get their voices heard. "
"However, if the CCP continues enforcing policies like this, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear of more uprisings in the future."
There are not only unhappyness but also lots of hatred going on in Tibet and out side Tibet. The communist government basically upset Tibetan ruling class when they strip Dalai Lama's political power and Monasteries' and upper class' vast land and serfs. Being an active polititian on international political stage for half a centuary, will Dalai Lama show what he really want? The absolute power he once had over all Tibetans? No. You know what he asks for in front of the entire world. Behind the scene it is all land and power. Not only Tibet but also large part of other four provinces belongs to his "Great Tibet" according to Dalai Lama and Tibetans in exile. Quite big appetite of land. That is 1/4 of China's land. After having all Chinese army and police out, he will possess both political power and religious power. What a democracy will that be!!!
Do riotors represent the ordinary Tibetans? Tell me which democratic countries have not have any riots? Does riot means that the entire population is unhappy?
In the Monks leaded riot we saw Tibetan riotors bashed, stabbed, stoned ordinary Han and Hui who are not believers of Tibetan Buddhism. At least five young women were burned to death when the shop they worked in was set on fire. Tell me this is because their voices are not heart? If I am gagged again and again by BBC can I do anything similar to that? Tell me the 9.11 terrorists did not have the same excuses? Is this not racial, religion motivated hatred? Why did they loot shops, broke into banks? burned them down? Why schools and hospitals upset them? Why did they burn down hospitals? I see. If disease become treatable then the Karma theory will no longer seems to be the truth.
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@ finntan
"If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet?s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was."
WOW. Regretably there is not any time machine can sent you back to feudal Tibet.
How romantic the feudal socienty seems to be.
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Hi bylooker,
I've seen a few of the photographs, however I still wonder how it took 8 years, surely the liberation came in 1951.
I feel there's a lot of disinformation out there - from both sides of the argument. Clearly however there are many unhappy Tibetans both living there and abroad, and I hope that more Han Chinese can at least start asking why. Much that I hear is that Tibetans are simply "ungrateful" or not smart enough to make their own decisions. Is Tibet part of China? I not sure either way to be honest.
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To #81 bylooker
thank you for correcting me, I did indeed mean to say the June 4th movement/massacre.
Thank you
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Post *80
"Yes, the system in Tibet before was not good and the Dalai Lama accepts that now "
Yes? When did Dalai Lama accepted that ? sources pls?
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One China, forever.
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"Chinese culture happens to be far more than buildings or the FLG. Chinese culture is alive and well, despite the mistakes of the CR, because China is alive and well and unified, not fragmented and disorganized.
Tibet's greatest value to the West today is in the PR war/anti-China campaign. To think that it is anything more is, at best, grossly naive."
-The West does surprisingly little in practical terms about Tibet, because of China's strength. However always China loses face to the West because of Western sympathy with the Tibetan people. Therefore Tibet is not really a pawn of anyone but the CCP.
I have a few points tot make to the Chinese posters here.
1) The abuses by the West of native peoples (eg American Indian) are a side -issue. Two wrongs do not make a right. If anything, China should learn from the mistakes of the West. Just because injustices happened in the past doesn't mean we should stay silent on modern injustice.
2) So Tibet was feudal. Can posters here tell me why China feels it has the right to forcibly solve this problem? What right does China have to interfere? Before you mention Iraq, re-read point number 1 above, and also accept that in the UK at least, the majority of public opinion has consistently been against an invasion of Iraq. The elction of Obama shows the US public realised they made errors. But in the West we can get rid of bad leaders. May take a couple of years but we get rid of them eventually in an election.
3) Calling the CR a 'mistake' is one of the biggest understatements ever. The CR never really went away anyway, since Tibetans (and Chinese) still do not have full freedom of religion and culture. As I stated earlier, historic Chinese buildings are regularly destroyed - whole villages eradicated to build dams etc
4) It's a bit rich to criticise pre-invasion Tibet as being undemocratic when China has no democracy, governed by a ruthless one party state.
5) HHDL does not want to break away from China but to have meaningful autonomy. Why is this such an unreasonable position?
Chinese people must accept that the reason the West has sympathy for Tibet and HHDL is not because of a wish to see China weakened, not because of propaganda or misrepresentation - simply because individual Western people see the Tibetans denied the rights they themselves hold so dear, the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, to criticise and complain, to vote for any person or party they choose. To have representation. To live without fear of arrest, imprisonment torture and execution just because they don't agree with the government and express their disagreement openly.
This is not just the suffering of the Tibetan people but all of China. Until the CCP goes, neither Tibet nor China will be free.
Western people (even those who do not know much about Tibet) instinctively realise the injustice of the situation. THAT is why they side with the Tibetans - and this will NEVER change.
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Talk about celebrations eh?
China can celebrate whatever this holiday is but Tibet and its people will not. In fact, to mourn the deaths of the people who died at the hands of the Chinese during the March protest last year, we Tibetans inside and outside Tibet will not be celebrating the Tibetan New Year( 27th February) with the same grandness as is seen every year.
This is a big mistake by the Chinese government. It is adding fuel to the fire.
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Serf, a jargon? Liberation of millions requires a massive job centre to be built later on.
A serf. A peasant in a communist state.
Job descriptions say neither owns the land.
What is the difference?
Feeling confused.
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To GNRChineseDemocracy,
I'm a fashion designer and I had been travelled in Tibet/Qinghai Highland for 2 years before I went to university. I have experienced the changes in Tibet. I used to travel from Lahas cross the Everest to Nepal with my dutch friend. We asked the Tibetans driver why you guys want independence. He said it is not us it's those ex slave owners. My parents were slaves before 1959, we had nothing but now I have my own car.
After this trip, my dutch friend said he changed his mind about Tibet.
He made a picture for the statue of slave libration in square in front of Potala Palace.
Last year he said to me he supported China's government.
Tibetans went to see Dalai Lama by foot/kowtown is their religious activities. I met a Tibetan familiy Qinghai lake, they were going to Lahsa to see the Potala Palace by kowtown. They measured the road by their body. It looked really tough.
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pandemic26 wrote:
Talk about celebrations eh?
China can celebrate whatever this holiday is but Tibet and its people will not. In fact, to mourn the deaths of the people who died at the hands of the Chinese during the March protest last year, we Tibetans inside and outside Tibet will not be celebrating the Tibetan New Year( 27th February) with the same grandness as is seen every year.
This is a big mistake by the Chinese government. It is adding fuel to the fire.
--------
Yes we will mourn the innocent Lahsa Citizens who were killed by the riot. Nobody outside China have never express any sympathy for them.
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#99
If the majority of Western people came to see the fact that Tibet gained direct control after a ruthless and disciplinarian religious society was removed then the pro-Independence activists would receive very little support. And while talk is made of monks who were injured in recent rioting, little is made of TV film which showed they actually led the trouble-makers. Even the BBC showed monks on the attack, and showed opponents of Independence and innocent people being viciously assaulted just for being in the way of the rioters.
The pro-Indepedence folk talk of "religious freedom". But in fact there is religious freedom in China. The BBC - often accused of anti-China bias - filmed in Tibet for a year, during which time they were unaccompanied and showed young people being educated as monks and the daily life of monasteries. What is more, I've been in established Christian Churches in China as a tourist. I've seen the Orders of Service in them, since these are still fully functioning and are open to all, everyone to see.
The thing that the Chinese government will not allow, quite justifiably, is an alternative source of authority being created using religion as a cloak. That's not censorship; it's common sense.
In point of fact, there are more freedoms in China (and Tibet) now than there has ever been. There are national and local government structures that seek to implement good governance across national and local government bodies and the Chinese government has been very active in seeking to learn from best practice in the West. There is private property and regional stock exchanges watched over by a regulatory commission.
We have to accept that not everything in China can be the same as in the West. The cultural, political and industrial history of China is very different from the US, for example. In the Us, European colonialists crushed a native Indian population and built a new country; in relation to China, we have a civilisation built on 5,000 years of history under under different types of control.
I think it is unfair to criticise China in the way some people do. It has a lot to be justifiably proud of. The government has said it wants to further develop and it will do so in its own time.
There's nothing wrong with that.
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@99
You said, "What right does China have to interfere?"
Sovereignty matters. What right does the North have to invade the South in the American Civil War? What right does the US have to abolish slavery in the south? You have to understand that tibet has been part of China for centuries and that no country in this world recognized tibet's independence when China reclaimed the region after the chaos of the collapse of the Qing Dynasty.
Our country is a multi-ethic, multi-cultured country. It may still be far from perfect but we have come a long way. Stop meddling in our country's internal affairs. Stop fomenting hatred amongst our peoples. Stop demonizing our people. Remember in your dreams that you have Hui Muslim, Han AND Tibetan Chinese blood on your hands in last year's riot.
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103. At 11:46am on 22 Jan 2009, tasselying
"China can celebrate whatever this holiday is but Tibet and its people will not."
You see the real native Tibetans celebrating the Holiday on english.Sina.com
"Nobody outside China have never express any sympathy for them. "
I live in NYC, I felt sad for them and so does my friends in NYC.
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There major similarities between Israel and the province of Tibet in China.
In both cases the EU/US are using the plead of a group of people within their borders to gain land in foreign land.
Israel was craved out by the EU/US after WW2 and have since expanded its original border. It is an artificial country, a colony in disguise. The Holocaust doesn't justify craving out foreign land.
The Tibet issue is similar except EU/US don't have the power this time. Tenzin (the DL) wants Tibet and other provinces around it with the withdraw of all non-Tibetan military and residents. This is not autonomy. This is creating another artificial country and a colony.
China is right to have this holiday and stand firm to protect its borders.
Both Tenzin and Israel are pawns in a global political chess game. Israel has risen to a rook piece with its nuclear arsenal. Tenzin never will to his death.
The BBC will never make this comparison.
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China claims Tibet was part of China since ancient times. Then they say Tibet was part of China since 7th century When Tibetan King Songtsen Gampo married Chinese princess Wencheng. Other times they say Tibet became part of China since 13th the century when Mongol's Yaun dynasty ruled China as well as Tibet.
If we have to believe in above Chinese claims then the serf system in Tibet was there even before Dalai Lamas assumed power in Tibet.
Then why do the Chinese blame the present Dalai Lama?
Why didn't China abolish the serf systme long time ago?
Otherwise Tibet should be independent country as it truly was historically. Tibet is distinct in history, language, culture, religion, ethnicity and even geographically from China. Even the sattelite photos from space shows Tibet's distinct plateau from surrounding China.
In Short, Tibet has more independent characteristics than hundreds of countries in present world only that it was subsumed by a ruthless communist system for it's appetite for land, resources and strategic location.
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# 105
What I find strange is that Chinese posters on here tell me that China can not have democracy and freee speech because of the different nature of Chinese culture, and yet say Tibetan culture has to be reformed and replaced.
You can't have it both ways, if you don't want the West telling you how to improve your human rights, maybe you shouldn't tell the Tibetans how to improve their society?
If I accept China as a different culture which the West should not try to impose values upon, why can China not accept Tibet has (had) a very different culture it should not try to impose itself upon?
What religious freedom is there in China? Falun Gong was never a threat to the Chinese state, though the CCP feared the affection it had among millions of CHinese.
What religious freedom? If I am a Chinese Catholic, my religious loyalty lies with the Pope, not the CCP. All Roman Catholics wherever they are look to the POpe for guidance.
What religious freedom? Why should I have to go to a state-sanctioned Church? Are underground churches a threat to the state, or just a group of people who don't want government telling them how they should worship? Huge numbers of underground churches in China.
Tibetans have no religious freedom since the head of their religion is HHDl and he is not allowed to be mentioned! Where is the freedom in that! When the real Panchen Lama is hidden away somewhere by the CCP.
As for the violence in the protests - well, HHDL has asked the Tibetan people not to be violent. When HHDL dies, the violence will probably get a lot worse.
So the CCP won't allow another 'source of authority' whatever that means. OK - but then you can't claim you are living in a free society. We all have loyalties to our country, our religious leaders, our boss, our family, our political groups - there can never be one single source of authority in a free state.
The pathetic fact is, the CCP are not even Communist anymore! Where is the redistribution of wealth? The CCP wants to stay in power, that's all they care about. They don't really care about the Chinese people. Get rich and make money as long as you kowtow to the Party. What is the point of the Chinese Communist Party?
One cultural difference that is evident is that many Chinese see criticisms of the CCP as criticisms of Chinese people as a whole. We in the West will never approve of a CCP-controlled nation. But one day that will change, China will be free and will truly join the other great nations.
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#106
You make a few incorrect comparisons which I will try to address.
1) Again I have to mention that we need to keep the focus on Tibet and China - saying 'what about when the West did this in the past' is irrelevant. Do you want to repeat our mistakes? Do two wrongs make a right?
2) American Civil War - not really a fair comparison because the South was willingly part of a federation of states, then changed its mind over federal authority. Also, the South shared the same culture and history with the North - they were the same people. Tibetans are ethnically, linguistically and culturally very different from Han Chinese.
Tibet was largely autonomous for many, many years - then Mao wanted control back.
Also, let's say the South democratically voted to leave the Union in the future. I'm sure the USA would not use the military to enforce membership. Because that's democracy.
For example, take Hawaii - there is, to this very day, a small but vocal independence movement. Yet these people are not imprisoned and executed for stating they want to leave the USA and having protests.
3) The only people who have blood on their hands is the CCP. When people do not have the right to speak their mind, to protest, to be represented - they turn to violence.
Stop seeing yourself as the CCP - you are not - you are Chinese.
I hate the CCP and will make no apologies for this. I do not hate the people of China.
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@101.
What's the difference between a peasant and a serf?
A farmer in China owns his/her own land. He/she can lease it out if she/he wants to. He/she is free to leave the land, travel/study/find work in big cities. The Chinese state media was promoting the idea to allow farmers to sell the land before the current economy crisis. The bill did not get pass because large numbers of representatives felt that it is a good thing for farmers who lost their jobs in the cities(because of the recession) still have land to work on. Once the economy storm passes, during good time the bill will get passed. That means Chinese farmers will have full ownership of the land. They can lease it out or sell it as they wish.
A serf did not own his land, not allowed to leave the land, work all his life to pay heavy taxes to Monasteriesor/ their owners. If they were caught trying to run away then they were subjected to crule punishment.
Is there enough difference?
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@ 99 bloofs
Who have you been listening to? Tibetans in exiles? Do they represent all Tibetans? Who went into exile and why?
What will happen if Dalai Lama and Tibetan upper class come back? With complete religious power and political power gathered in one person-his holiness Dalai Lama, Chinese army and police out, all non-Tibetans (including some minorities who have lived in Tibet for centuraries)out, what will happen next? Forgot to mention large area of four other provinces have to clear its non-Tibetan population to be part of the Great Tibet according to Dalai Lama and his Tibetan in Exile government. You will see ordinary Tibetans "willingly" return their land (granted to them during the land reform in 1958) to Monasteries and their previous owners. You will see Tibetan branch of buddhism return to its previous glories. Have 1/5 of Tibet's male population again as monks and Lamas. You will see Tibetans again paying unbelievable high tax. Will it be a democracy? Deeply religious Tibetans will have only one choice---his holiness Dalai Lama. An obsolute religion rule is reborned on earth.
Sounds quite reasonable? His "autonomy"?
What will happen to those non-Tibetans who refused to leave the land they have lived for generations? I am pretty sure what happened on Lasah street will repeat itself.
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Pls learn some real histories from historians not from the shallow media and celebrities.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/ealac/barnett/pdfs/link3-coleman-ch3-4.pdf
Censor this one BBC as you always does.
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Bloofs -- Incorrect on ALL fronts:
1) The abuses by the West of native peoples (eg American Indian) are a side -issue. Two wrongs do not make a right. If anything, China should learn from the mistakes of the West. Just because injustices happened in the past doesn't mean we should stay silent on modern injustice.
There's a little something in legal theory called equal protection. It is the idea that similarly situated parties merit similar treatment or protection under the law. It is a violation to give one party an advantage, while refusing to do so for a similarly situated like party. Inequitable enforcement of laws is itself a problem. Therefore, to state that Western abuses in history is a "side issue" is simply insufficient. They are entirely analogous, if not even more egregious than what is alleged against China and the CCP. You are simply attempting to hold China to a substantially higher bar. It would be farcical to state that there is no measure of unfairness to this.
2) So Tibet was feudal. Can posters here tell me why China feels it has the right to forcibly solve this problem? What right does China have to interfere? Before you mention Iraq, re-read point number 1 above, and also accept that in the UK at least, the majority of public opinion has consistently been against an invasion of Iraq. The elction of Obama shows the US public realised they made errors. But in the West we can get rid of bad leaders. May take a couple of years but we get rid of them eventually in an election.
You're right, what right did Lincoln have to free the slaves and the North to preserve the union? The Southern Confederacy, surely, should have allowed to secede, and be permitted to continue its institution of slavery, racism, and degradation.
3) Calling the CR a 'mistake' is one of the biggest understatements ever. The CR never really went away anyway, since Tibetans (and Chinese) still do not have full freedom of religion and culture. As I stated earlier, historic Chinese buildings are regularly destroyed - whole villages eradicated to build dams etc
Um, the dam has a major and important purpose. Yeah, the CCP likes to flood the homes of Chinese citizens just for the sheer pleasure of it ... you'd love to believe that I suppose. the CR was not just a mistake, it was a dire, dreadful, terrible, mistake without precedent. That's the issue. The issue is that the CR was a nationwide mistake, not an event that was particular to the Tibetan people motivated by anything distinctively anti-Tibetan. All China suffered under the CR, not just Tibet. Time to get over yourselves. We all lost so much during the CR. Today, Tibetan culture is celebrated, even in Eastern China. Tibetan song, dance, dress, food, you name it.
4) It's a bit rich to criticise pre-invasion Tibet as being undemocratic when China has no democracy, governed by a ruthless one party state.
Lack of democracy does not equal a state of dark ages slavery and serfdom. Pre-CCP Tibet does equal a state of dark ages slavery and serfdom.
5) HHDL does not want to break away from China but to have meaningful autonomy. Why is this such an unreasonable position?
Give him an inch, and he'll take the whole yard. "Meaningful autonomy" is inadequately defined. According to the DL, it means all the benefits of economic association with Beijing, but none of the responsibilities of citizenship. Also, it means a racially-based restriction on travel. Being a part of a nation means having both the benefits of the association and the responsibilities thereto. The DL's position means, we'll eat your cake, you pay the bill, and by the way, keep your people OUT. Sorry if Beijing sees that as a bit unreasonable.
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Over 40 years the Chinese Communist party has been relentlessly lambasting H.H.the Dalia lama. Yet the people of the free World is no fool and is standing on the truth side. The Communist party’s propaganda is often viewed with strong skepticism by the World out side, though effective with the Chinese people who are in the Communist fish ball with a little or no access to the universally accepted or acknowledged views of the world events.
What the Communist China is doing to Tibet is not liberation. It is occupation.“ Tibet is feudal, medieval and oppressive, landowners, serfs and slaves” is the typical politics of a colonist to dehumanise, debase and twist facts in order to make the occupation acceptable and civilized.
Tibet has 2000years history and like China, India Nepal, Japan and Europe serfdom may have touched a part of Tibet. To say that Tibet was a nation of serfdom not an establish fact but an allegation by the revisionist Communist Party. Just as the new china is saying that give us time and we will catch up, Tibet needed time to involve on it’s own.
We Tibetans have no quarrels with the Chinese people. Every year we get hundreds of Tibetans exiling from Tibet and many have experienced compassion, humanity and fellowship from the ordinary Chinese either in the labour camps or in prisons or at community work. To the Communist Party, any one who opposes it’s rules is an
Anti-China. But here is what the most popular and powerful man on earth said on his inauguration day, “those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history”.
C.T
N.Y.
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117:
Love your admission there: "Serfdom may have touched a part of Tibet." However, any attempt to elborate any further on the issue is an attempt to "dehumanize" and "colonize."
Look: We've all seen the shrunken skulls and bodies, the images of serf life in contrast to the DL's theocratic nobility prior to the CCP's arrival in Tibet. That evidence is irrefutable. Rights for all serfs, particularly women, have grown exponentially since the arrival of the CCP. Your position, sir, fails to hold water.
FYI 1: I live in NY, just like you. If you'll look at the pro-China support during the torch relay, you'll note that most of this support for China comes not from "brain-washed" Chinese within China (lol, they may be far more militant and think that TAR has been coddled by Beijing), but from many who were born, grew up in, and educated in the West.
FYI 2: Obama will do nothing RE: Tibet -- His adminstration has far bigger domestic demons to deal with. One thing you've got to learn about the West ... when their life is perfect and they have extra time on their hands, human rights and all such rhetoric are hunky-dory. But the second their ease and freedom to consume is compromised, your concerns move to the bottom of the list. Obama knows what's at the top of the list -- the economy. To that end, he would never upset relations with an important trading partner who now has great leverage in the global economic situation, by pressing the Tibet issue. Realize you're a pawn in the great game ... deal with it.
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#109
That's why CCP stepped in to remove the serf system from this part of Chinese territory.
Are you saying that all these countries having diplomatic relation with the PRC and recognise that Tibet is an integral part of China are so ignorant of Tibet history?
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At 1:26pm on 27 Jan 2009, KrSund70 wrote:
117:"I live in NY, just like you. If you'll look at the pro-China supportwas during the torch relay, you'll note that most of this support for China comes not from "brain-hed" Chinese within China (lol, they may be far more militant and think that TAR has been coddled by Beijing), but from many who were born, grew up in, and educated in the West."
Tibetans inside and outside tibet coming together is night mare to the Communist Party .So polarization must prevail. Thus born the ”Serf Emancipation Day". And to conclude that Tibet was a feudal system on the bases of some skulls and bodies is arbitrary and fabrications.
Yes, in New York the Communist orchestrated demonstrations encountered the Tibetans and the pro- democratic Chinese.And the world knows now what happens if one disobeys!
Chinese people are very patriotic. Their patriotism has overridden Zhou Dynasty feudalism, foreign invasions and Mao’s communism . Yet sadly the Communist Party is still exploiting this very patriotism to controll, silence, expel,cheat and punish it’s own people. Does communism means patriotism ?
Tibetans and the Chinese people will come to understand each other like the Chinese in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysian, Hong Kong and now spurring up in main China. If it is
not for their generosity there would not be hundreds of Tibetan monasteries, institutions and tens thousands of monks all over the World.
As you specifically mentioned the West and Tibet.Well the relationship between Tibetans and the Western people is not based on politics nor materialistic gain. It is a spiritual bond. It is a bond that brings in universal peace, compassion,love and responsibility. It is a language that is so well understood by the great human beings like Mahatma Gandhi Martin Luther king, and Nelson Mandela. It is spoken by intellectuals, riches humanitarians and the religious people of the World. There is no greater bond than human bond. So I hope one day people of China will join us.
“ If we are to go forward, we must go back and rediscover those precious values - that all reality hinges on moral foundations and that all reality has spiritual control”.
C.T.
N.Y
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