Update: Wo Weihan
An update on the case of Wo Weihan, the Chinese businessman sentenced to death for espionage. (See also: 'Taiwan spy' executed by Beijing).
On Friday evening, we received a statement from Mr Wo's family. Extracts below:
Today, our beloved father, Wo Weihan, was executed... At 5pm today, we were informed by Austria's deputy ambassador Stefan Scholz that the Chinese MFA gave him the confirmation that the execution had taken place in the morning today. According to our information, he was executed by gunshot... We are deeply shocked, saddened, disappointed and outraged.
As I write this entry, I'm unaware of any reaction from the Chinese government. But on Thursday, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman said the following: "China is a country run by law and the final verdict concerning Wo was independently made by the relevant Chinese judicial organs."
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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Wo Weihan found guilty of spying for Taiwan over a period of 14 years by passing state secret to a hostile government. Mr Wo's action betray China and its people exposing the country to threat, terrorism and undermined national security, his action was one of treason under which the death penalty applies therefore Mr Wo's execution has serve the law of the land under China's national consitution.
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A criminal was prosecuted according to law. It's a good news.
Most of criminals have families who love them. So what? It doesn't mean that he/she is innocent.
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I bet that Saddam's family loved him as much as, if not greater than, Ron's feeling to her father.
But, a criminal is a criminal. I didn't find any report from the BBC quoting what Saddam's family talking about their beloved one. What makes a spy so special to the BBC?
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I give double-thumb up to the Chinese legal system.
China MUST stand up against the Western powers.
If you look at BBC news, it never paints the island of Taiwan the same color as mainland China. The West is China’s enemy. China's fault is being a big nation, big enough to challenge them.
The young generation Chinese have gotten this clear through the behaviors of Western governments and Westerners in China. If China do not think for herself, she will be messed up like in the last century, or like many African and Latin American nations. The colonial powers never admit their wrong doings.
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Perhaps this gentleman is guilty of spying....... but perhaps he's not. That's the problem when the judicial process is conducted in secrecy. You just never know. If the Chinese authorities, or any authorities for that matter, are confident in their judicial system and the decisions it renders then they shouldn't have a problem with having an open judicial system for transparency reasons. But that doesn't seem to be the case (much like how some western countries deal with 'terrorist' suspects). So it's quite appropriate to question the verdict.
The comparisons to the reporting of Saddam's execution are also not applicable and do not relate to this story. I'm sure Saddam's family loved him too (perhaps not his step son's though), but his crimes are not really in question. All I have to do is ask the guy sitting beside me at work here. He fled Iraq, Saddam, and the chemical weapons he used against his family and friends. I don't agree with the death penalty, but Saddam is guilty of atrocities.
If you are trying to indicate there is biased in the BBC reporting (which I imagine can happen every now and again), you'll have to come up with something better than this argument.
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To t-RAV_in_tO,
Give me a spy case in the West, US or UK, which is open to public.
You don’t have transparency yourself? How can you ask other to do such?
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Sorry, I should have said Saddam's 'Son's in Law', married to his daughters, not step sons. Sorry about that.
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It's always not nice to see a life is taken...
But if he has been a spy againist China for a long time, and caused serious damage, it might be justified - potentially his action will cause thousands of or even more Chinese soldiers to die in a war and China to lose a war.
I agree executing a criminal or not is not dependant on his foreign connections, China should even execute foreign criminals if they committed serious crimes in China.
China is the crossroad, being a superpower or being beaten by the West again and back to 19th century ...
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I apoligise Timbatu. I'll try and clarify a little here. I don't believe I indicated that western judicial systems are open and transparent in spy cases. When I mentioned how we deal with 'terrorist suspects' in western countries, I was trying to elud to the fact that our own illegal detention of terrorist suspects without due process as an example of ourselves not being transparent enough. In fact, I've blogged on this subject on a few sites.
The view I'm trying to get across is that if you do not want debate or questions to be asked about different court rulings then transparency is required. Otherwise anyone has a legitmate right to question a verdict or outcome. I'm not saying that this gentleman is guilty or not. However, it's fair to question the verdict. Some of the posts here suggest that there is some Westernised conspircy to paint China in a bad light, when this is just a report on how China dealt with this particular case. Many news media company's will report on such cases in Western countries as well. We had extensive coverage here on how one of our citizens was wrongly deported from the U.S. to Syria and then tortured. Were we to believe the Government, they told us this man was a terrorist. When in fact there was no proof he had any such links and was little more than vacation in the U.S. He's now suing the government, and rightly so.
It's always good to question government motives. I don't think it would feel too good knowing a government has wrongly imprisoned or executed someone who is innocent. I've seen it happen in a number of countries. I cannot imagine China is any different.
But this is a story, being reported by someone who's job is to report on stories from China...... which this story is. Not a conspircy by western countries or meda.
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If he was a Chinese spy executed by Taiwan, I'm sure no western government will complain. The same when the western journalists don't care when Taiwan ban mainland artists from performing in Taiwan, even though China allow Taiwan artists to perform in China. The truth is, Mr. Wo is a traitor to his country and he deserved his fate according to Chinese law. Just because his daughter feel angry, doesn't make his daddy clean.
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I cannot agree more to comment #5 by timbatu.
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To: t_RAV_in_tO. You wrote: Perhaps this gentleman is guilty of spying....... but perhaps he's not. That's the problem when the judicial process is conducted in secrecy. You just never know. If the Chinese authorities, or any authorities for that matter, are confident in their judicial system and the decisions it renders then they shouldn't have a problem with having an open judicial system for transparency reasons. But that doesn't seem to be the case (much like how some western countries deal with 'terrorist' suspects). So it's quite appropriate to question the verdict.
The comparisons to the reporting of Saddam's execution are also not applicable and do not relate to this story. I'm sure Saddam's family loved him too (perhaps not his step son's though), but his crimes are not really in question. All I have to do is ask the guy sitting beside me at work here. He fled Iraq, Saddam, and the chemical weapons he used against his family and friends. I don't agree with the death penalty, but Saddam is guilty of atrocities.
If you are trying to indicate there is biased in the BBC reporting (which I imagine can happen every now and again), you'll have to come up with something better than this argument.
Forget about the comparison to Saddam’s trial which is a completely farts by the US. Just look at similar trial for spy happens in the US. They never expose the trial publicly beside tell you the outcome of the trial only. They always keep the trial process in secrecy. And never media from the West such as CBC and CNN have questioned the outcome of the trial by US court. Why China cannot make its own decision for their internal affair? I believe China has the right and done the right thing to punish anyone who violates China’s domestic law regarding national security.
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You call this justice? No access to a lawyer and tortured until a confession was given.
And Exactly what secrets did he have? and what damage was caused?
With a dispicable justice system like this, of course western countries will look down on this action. How do you expect your country to improve with ignorant people supporting his death and a corrupt system.
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This does not do any credit to China: it is shameless & a cowardly act. It is time China started to behave like a big power: be magnanimous!
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Death penalty should NOT be given to espionage, especially China is not in a war and unlikely to be in a war in the near future. I hope this law can be changed.
I don't believe he is innocent but he doesn't deserve an execution
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I don't know what to tell you wikct2. We frequently question court rulings in the West. News media will report the story, and usually there are opinion pieces written by journalists expressing agreement or sometimes disagreement. Spy cases are debated just the same. Of course there is no evidence let out to the public, but that is usually just cause for more debate. I read the Chinese news agency news on a daily basis, along with many other news sites from different countries. I think it's unfair to say that western media doesn't report on spy cases without giving an example of when this occurred. But I they do report and also debate when someone wants to give an opinion. There's been a lot of talk about how western countries deal with terror detainees. They're not spies, however they come under the same umbrella as 'state security' and thus they keep these trials and detentions from the public. But they are reported on and questioned.
As well, I don't believe I've said that the Chinese government doesn't have a right to make this decision.... because they do. And chinese citizens have the right to have a judicial system that they want. However, I will repeat, that this story is deserving of coverage and debate.
Did this gentleman have access to sensitive material? Who were his contacts in Taiwan? The government there? Is just associating with a Taiwanese person considered teasonous in China? I don't know the answers to these, so I will not pretend that I do. But they are questions that are worth being asked.
I'll post a link here. Not sure if the moderators will allow it. It lists some more recent US spy cases:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0102/spy.cases/frameset.exclude.html
Just a little snipit. But any of these cases could be open for debate.
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I am not sure whether he is a spy or not, so I am not going to comment on that.
But I sort of agree t_RAV_in_tO that China should have a more transparent judical system.
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I always hear about Chinese officials getting busted for corruption, and SENTENCED TO DEATH. Such a crime seem to be much less than the act of espionage.
I wonder if the BBC should try to seek out the families of those condemmed Chinese officials to try and set a precedent on the death penalty law for those relatively smaller crimes first.
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I agree with No.11.
"China is a country run by law and ....was independently made by the relevant Chinese judicial organs." really? Since when have we had trias politica instead of three represents?
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timbatu:
You'd better control your temper to have your claims respected by others.
The significance of this matter is not about the war between China and the west. It is about how things like this can be better handled in the future.
Your comments are not helping China, or more specifically, the ordinary Chinese whose everyday life depends on the ever-better governance of Chinese authorities.
Perhaps you would think differently, if one of your families was falsely acused and died during the notorious post-revolution 'purge'----something still vivid in the memory of my parent generation.
China is not perfect and the government needs constant improvement----not complacency!
And I am proud to say that China already becomes a very powerful country so your defence is neither convincing nor necessary!
t_RAV_in_tO:
You are very reasonable. Comments like yours increase the quality of the debate over this blog.
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The point is whether Mr. Wo did committ the crime. If he did, he deserves the punishment. Unfortunately BBC, as always, attempts to take every opportunity to play the human right card.
This case reminds me that more than 100 years ago, the British opium smuggler and the government behind them also blamed Chinese judicial system. Nothing new.
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The execustion of Wo is an hostile and degrading act towards the supposed Taiwanese "tongbao" (fellow Chinese compatriots). Despite the fancy banquet with Taiwanese officials, the Communist government have proved itself to be an hostile government. Furthermore, Communist government's reluctance to sign a peace treaty with Taiwan signals its potential and willingness to derail into Fascism.
To clarify to some western audiences, the Three Principle of the People can be equated to democracy or republicanism.
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China has been destroyed many times from within before, by these kinds of Chinese.
What price would another spy be willing to pay. Let them know.
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Hmm. This show China has more tranparency than a lot of countries in the world. I bet if China spy is caught in Taiwan, the familiy will not know what happen so clearly. The only other country that is just as transparency is US, where the public know.
Look like this is a big step forward for china in terms of judical transparency.
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Zickyyy wrote:
"Death penalty should NOT be given to espionage, especially China is not in a war and unlikely to be in a war in the near future. I hope this law can be changed.
I don't believe he is innocent but he doesn't deserve an execution"
I agree with every word!!
Some time we do complain other countries live in 50-60ths but this case is a tragety to people both in mainland and taiwan due to the related law keeps in civial war era.
It's about time we work together with KMT government to end the pre-war statu of the taiwan straight.
I do feel sorry for Wu and his family, It's a mistake of our time. I hope there will be no more espanoge case between mainland and taiwan in the future.
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Why Austria should be angry?
Many China will be happy; having two daughters doesn’t make one person a super citizen.
And for the Death Penalty, the majority of Chinese people will agree to keep it.
That’s all end of conversation.
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What really puzzles me while reading the comments was the way of how some people react to reasoning; for what I have read in the original posting was a report for an incident of a case ruling in China, which appeared to be somehow questionable from an outsider's point of view. The concern is to the secrecy of the trial, the denial of the convict's right for legal assistance and the execution that wasn't well explained.
The tension between China and Taiwan is not being questioned here. They are currently not at war (and hopefully never will). What raised the concern are the accusation and how it was preceded. I don't see how it can be a western conspiracy for condemning a death penalty of ambiguous/bias justifiable cause.
It is a well known fact that all governments on this earth spy on each other. It is also well known that all governments would do dirty tricks when things may post even the slightest threat for their national security. There are plenty of cases that were never revealed and were never questioned by anybody, local or foreign. However, this is not the case. When the case was, fortunately, flipped open under the sun for the whole world to see, it is naturally that truth will be requested.
China is among the biggest powers in this world, and I daresay, most influential in recent years. We have all been impressed by the overwhelming display in the 2008 Olympics which portrayed the cultural and economic elaboration, as well as aggressiveness, from that massive land ruled by the Forbidden City. It’s a great culture but it’s ancient. The way they dealt with human right is as ancient as the literature they are reading. What amazed me the most is how most of the Chinese people are able to live with this brutality and truthfully believe it’s justifiable.
The death of the convicted spy brought only a sigh from me because I am not a Chinese. For those billions of people vigorously waving the red star flags, they should really start to think like dignified modern human, not the fragile peasants from the long lost ages of feudality.
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We know that Chinese people have no sense of independent bodies (eg independent media, independent lawyers...) as they never had them. I am not sure if we can blame them for that.
What annoys me here is the westerners here who don't realize all the good things they have and forget all the people who died who died to get them. We are so ignorant of our own values and it often saddens me.
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The spy cases would be involved a lot of sensitive materials that are always against the national security. It's a general practice in westen countries to hear the cases closely rather than publicly.
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There is some lack of reasoning here. There is no reason that this man has done anything overtly against the government because we would have heard about this in the western media a month ago when he was arrested. If he isn't a spy, then he must have secretly done something the CPP does not approve of. Otherwise why would they bother with all this bureaucratic/legal process and bad publicity to execute some random man related to an American citizen?
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James, you wrote earlier - "The legal system in this country operates amid great secrecy."
Are you talking about China or Britain ?? It seems that Members of Parliament in Britain can be arrested *appearantly* without the Home Secretary knowing anything about it !! And all done using counter-terrorist officers !!
Is this MP to be classified a terrorist, then ?? Has he terrorised the government by disclosing the truth ??
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#20 "This does not do any credit to China: it is shameless & a cowardly act. It is time China started to behave like a big power: be magnanimous!"
China *IS* behaving like a big power - the US of A !! I think China will ban the death penalty about the same time as America will !!
Good luck to those of you wishing to petition Obama for this ban !! Maybe some good will come of it !!
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Could 'international pressure/spot' have killed Wo Weihan?
No matter whether or not the outcome of his trial was predetermined, it is quite possible that wo's daughter's 'wistle blowing' and intervention by foreign governments and NGOs have sparked further determination on part of the Chinese court to execute this man by making this more of political case than it was before.
China has always insisted that foreigner do not interfere in its domestic affairs. Maybe Wo's eventual execution is partly because the Chinese government wants to show that foreign bodies cannot influence its decision making.
While there is precedent for leniency on dissendents and the likes after foreign outcry, Wo is charged for a different crime. The CCP might have reasoned that had leniency been given to Wo, it could set a dangerous precedent for espionage, graft, and drug-trafficking, which all carry the death penalty in China. I doubt the CCP would like to see future interventions in these cases by governments and NGOs who oppose the death penalty.
Already we see 'outcry' from human rights groups about the man who massacred a police station. No matter how angry he was, there is no doubt that he is guilty of at least six counts of first degree homicide, and under Chinese law, he should be put to death, but many outside of China clearly do not care for that. I think this is what the CCP is trying to minimize.
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@ 20 .
It is time for China to behave like a big power? There would be lot of fun to watch China behave like the USA? or Russia or like the Great Britain when it was a big power in the past?
Which country should China invade/colonise?
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Again BBC is focusing on the differences.
China does not have copy the legal system of the west. There are 0.5 billion Chinese people still live under 2$ a day and most of time these people are poorly educated given the fact that the education system was bad 30 years ago. China can not afford the expensive western system. If China did copy the westen system then the poor and undereducated will become the victim of the system. China should stand up tall in front of these nonsense critism because she has her own culturally appropriate system that effectively keeps crime rate low.
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The communist chinese goverment and its branches have many problems .Miscarriage of justice is repent, there have been many times it has happened . This does not only happen in China of course ,but it happens more so in China then anywhere else .
An innoccent man was shot. Execution should only be done ,when one is one hundred percent sure that the person has commited the crime.This I beleave has not happened. He was tortued into confessing a non existent crime.
Gentleman, a man was killed today, shot even for a crime he didnt commit ,please take a moment to think about him .He died, like many before him because of the communist goverment. His death is only one in thirty million, but i hope you will rememeber Wo Weihan .
RIP Wo Weihan
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Will UK government do different thing to a traitor?
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t_RAV_in_tO,
I simply do not see a free media in the US. A Wal-Mart worker of Valley Stream NY died after a throng of shoppers broke down the doors and trampled him moments after the store opened early Friday. This news is muted by CNN, ABC, MSNBC, etc.
If such an incidence happens in China, it will be reported to the maximum effect; to damage Chinese economic interest.
You keep telling us your Media is free. I really, I mean really, do NOT observe it.
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All this spying on China is so terrible comments. What about all the spying China does in the US. Hacking into the Pentagon and trying to steal technology from Silicon Valley. There is far too much backward thinking towards the death penalty. Hopefully human dignity will win through one day.
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Hi James just a personal question I don't know how to ask you except post them here so feel free to delete them after the read.
1.FDA detect melamine in several US brand milk powder in the USA and they refused to announce the brand which got melamines detect, days later FDA says it's their 'mistake' and they said the amount of melamine is safe to eat in those brand products. I haven't see any reports related to this in BBC America and wonder if this is a bias on reporting guide line.
2. Last friday in USA(Again) people went to get cheaper goods in store and resulted in 1 people dead and several heavily injuried in walmart. Still no report seen on major media...If same thing happens in China it's a sure headline to highlight social unrest.
So here is my question, why the medias treat similar things in the US and China differently?
Thanks for reading and you can delete this comment now =]
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#5, "China must stand up to Western powers"
Wow. however did you arrive by that conclusion? So, by executing an alleged spy, China is standing up to what? Western oppression? Please. So you're saying, "We say this man is a spy, and now we execute him, now the biased BBC will know that our government has better form of democracy. Double Thumbs up!" No wonder some chinese are trying to get foreign citizenship, at least they know some foreign country will care for their rights.
#10, "potentially his actions will cause thousands or more chinese soldiers to lose their lives in war." The last time the Chinese military engaged in a major conflict was during WWII, and did I mention that they lost to Japanese soldiers? Although if Wu's spying may help tibetan activists and peasants overpower tanks and automatic rifles, I'd gladly consider your fears well justified.
Oh, and by the way, when was the last time China suffered from a terrorist attack?
Spying for Taiwan eh? I think you overestimate Taiwan's military capabilities if you think they have enough muscle to face China's military force. And I haven't even mentioned the part where China has nuclear missiles pointed across the Taiwan strait towards, you guessed it, Taiwan?
Consider this. If Wu Weihan did possess information that poses a risk to Chinese National Security, he'd already be one of those countless missing persons that are never seen again. It's much more practical than locking him up illegally and risk the potential media feeding frenzy for anything that damages China's reputation, right?
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Hells Bells!
All you Chinese boys and girls are so down on 'the west'. You acuse non-chinese people of knowing nothing, but a lot of non-chinese people think that you have no clue yourselves... so what to do? Continuously get angry at us because our opinion is different to yours?
Many Chinese will say "You know nothing about China, you cannot comment", well, in response I say that you just don't know what you are missing out on.
Just because your government tells you that it knows best does not mean that it really does. Just because your government tells you that it is best that they control the agenda, the media, does that make it true?
Do you not mind that your legal system is not transparent? Do you not mind that corruption is rampant? Do you not mind being oppressed for speaking your mind?
My experience of China is that Chinese people, whilst friendly, are very rude. So perhaps oppression works for you.
Chinese people need to rid themselves of their absurd victim mentality.
You Chinese can have whatever government you want. If you want the status quo then good on you- but your government is not brave enough to ask the people if they want them with the test of democratic elections.
China the rising superpower- as if. China is on a path to self destruction. Thank god that Chinese Democracy will never take off in my country.
You Chinese people probabally know how much most Americans disliked George Bush yes? Well to non-chinese it seems as if George Bush has been governing China since 1949. Get it?
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According to Xinhua, the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman stressed that all citizens are equal before the law, and that Wo cannot be an exception simply because he has foreign relatives.
Wo must have done something very damaging to China. Many people convicted of espionage in China are only given a jail term. In a high profile case about two years ago, a Singaporean journalist convicted of spying for Taiwan was jailed and has since been released.
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Mr James, have you reported on China's cancallation of a summit with EU?
"EU chief says China had no reason to cancel summit"
I found the logic is so funny : Barroso said it was "completely natural" to want to meet the Dalai Lama and that he had no reason to criticise Sarkozy."He has the right to meet whoever he wants," .
Of course he has right to meet whoever he wants, but China has the right NOT to meet EU leaders and cancel the summit right? What a strange logic he has!
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Does anyone still trust Chinese law. Chinese law is just a type of tool which is used to serve for CCP.
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Fair use:
Nowhere is this attitude clearer than in the local bar associations. In free countries, lawyers organize via independent bar associations that govern ethics and serve as watchdogs on government abuses of the system. Not so in China. All practicing lawyers must register with and pay dues to their local lawyers' association, which reports to the Ministry of Justice, which tacitly approves its leaders. These associations aren't there to help lawyers or represent them to the Ministry; rather, their purpose is to control the lawyers -- sometimes even telling them whom they can, and can't, represent, according to Chinese legal scholars. Many lawyers resent paying for this "service."
In Beijing, a few lawyers decided to do something about it. In August they wrote a letter to the Beijing Lawyers' Association asking for the right to elect the group's leaders, vote on a new set of regulations to govern the body, and vote on lower annual fees. "Democracy is not a far-off ideal," the letter concluded. Thirty-five attorneys signed the original petition, and two months later it had more than 80 signatures.
In response, the association issued an open letter announcing it was illegal to use "text messages, the Web or other media to privately promote and disseminate the concept of direct elections, express controversial opinions, thereby spreading rumors within the Beijing Bar Association, [and] confuse and poison people's minds."
One of the attorneys spearheading the reform effort, Cheng Hai, explained in a phone interview why it is so important for lawyers to be able to vote for the leaders of their association. Because lawyers cannot vote, he says, the association does not "protect [their] interests" or protect them against abuses. Sometimes, the association even discourages them from doing their jobs: Mr. Cheng was one of 18 lawyers who wrote an open letter offering to represent Tibetans after the protests in March. "The president of the lawyers' association cursed us," he says. Separately, two of his co-signers lost their law licenses a few weeks later.
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To Comments 3 & 5
So Mr Wo has been executed, how do you know he was guilty?
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While I find the merry complaining highly entertaining I think that most of the issues are arising from a difference in what is considered important.
To the 'West' individuality is of the highest concern. The individual is seen as more important than the society in which they move.
To China society is the most important thing. The individual is a part of the society, but any single individual is not more important than it.
Given the fairly recent turmoil that China has suffered (within living memory of a significant chunk of the poulation) I can easily understand why you wuld want the security of a stable society over and above any individual rights.
As China moves further away from those chaotic times people may want more freedom for themselves, but not neccesarily.
China has traditionally had an autocratic model of governance and given it's current strength it appears to work.
Would you be a free man who starves or an indentured servant who is well fed?
All this is more relevant to the commentry than the article, I guess. Sorry James, looks like your post has been hijacked again.
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Fact of the matter is, no one knows enough about the case to make a comment and no one who knows enough can make a comment without breaching the law.
We mustn't generalise this debate to one of greater transparency because that is not what the article is about. If we are to catch-phrase and generalise it, I think you will find that every nation has its way of protecting her soverignty and that they are not too dissimilar.
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To #40 Godasse
Forty years ago, we chinese learnt these words(just change your "westerners" to our "Chinese") every day. I'm sure all the chinese who's older than forty must have much more feeling on your wording.
What a funny thing that we Chinese have almost forgotten these wording while you shout them out!
BTW, do you know what's the period forty years ago in China?
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All I see is that China executed a criminal according to the LAW, which is there for people to obey. Anyone who does otherwise should be punished. With regard to judicial transparency, few countries can be transparent when a case is related to national security, China is just no exception. Sadly, sometimes you just have to trust government on this.
I doubt he is innocent. If the Chinese government really wants to frame him, it wouldn't have waited for all these years for execution.
For those who think China should abandon death penalty: This is completely internal affair, OK? Probably Britons like the idea of keeping murderers and child rapists alive in prison watching Sky TV, using tax payers' (including victims' family and friends) money, but sorry, WE just don't fancy it.
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What we are debating upon here is only a card played by politicians. China did this just to give Europe a signal that you go too far over the some sensitive issues and it is time to hold your peace.
As a Chinese, I am proud of my country. I was once longing for the western democracy, but not any more now.
Westerners go too far and hurt my feelings. The right for you to do is to figure out how to cooperate with us. If you do not want to, then be my guest..
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Hasn't China always claimed that Taiwan is an essential part of the country? By definition, espionage means spying for a foreign government, doesn't it?
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He should be sentenced to death, and other countries leader should shut up. he is a citizen of China, none of your business.
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To fastmrmoonlight on #55..
.. its about time somebody blew that out into the open. After reading comment after comment after comment attacking Mr. Reynold personally and pushing a brainwashed pro-CCP view, its a relief to see some sense back into the place.
Ever come accross forums where the useful information is obscured by trivial posts? This post is absolutely unessesary, but to fastmrmoonlight you have made my day (so much that I registered a BBC account just to say this).
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We chinese are peace loving-peoples. So the Chinese government and Chinese people will severely punish any peacebreakers and peacebreak-organizations.
Mr. Wo should be sentence to death for he betraying China. And we do believe that Chinese government will not sentence a not guilty people to death. Because it is not meaningful at all. As for the transparency, I think it is the Chinese internal affairs.
DON'T FORGET THAT WE CHINESE ARE PEACE LOVING-PEOPLES, JUST LIKE YOU WHO ARE READING IN FRONT OF THE SCREEN.
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TO #76 benjaminqiu,
Hi, friend,
Please go to wiki or some laws of any courtry to check the definition of 'espionage' before you define it. Unless you also think that this kind of word-splitting game is meaningless. :)
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#57 fairreport,
Hey, do you know? It's your government that's being illogical. And please read what you just reacted from:
"EU chief says China had no reason to cancel summit"
Your reaction? "Of course he has right to meet whoever he wants, but China has the right NOT to meet EU leaders and cancel the summit right?"
EU chief says China had no REASON to cancel the SCHEDULED EU summit, but you're reading it as if he's saying China doesn't have the RIGHT to cancel. To quote Barroso, "I find the logic funny".
Cancellation the EU summit shows bad faith on your government's part. You complain of being bullied all the time by the west, but you don't bat an eye when it's your government trying to bully others. "Oh we don't like the Dalai Lama, he's an enemy of China. If you meet with him, we won't talk with you about economic matters anymore. Boo hoo hoo."
Quite immature, if you think about it.
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I don't know what's to debate here. From what I see it it happened like this.
1. Man was caught.
2. He was tried for espionage. Trial was heard in secrecy as evidence pertains to issues of national security. Same as what US would do.
3. Man was found guilty.
4. Sentenced to execution.
5. Carried out Sentence.
Sounds fair to me, but most people in the west seems to hold a different view. and it's like this.
1. The evil CPP caught man.
2. Evil CPP determines that they didn't like the man just because... err... ...?
3. Evil CPP decides to execute said man.
What line of thinking is that?
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Every nation has their own way in dealing with this kind of issue. Although Mr Wo's daughter is an Australia, he is still a Chinese citizen and he is surely sentenced according to Chinese law.
I believe he has betrayed our nation badly, or why is he sentenced to death? As for espionage issue, no countries will let out the details because it's confidential and it won't be democratic or transparent even in those western countries. Therefore, no one has right to blame on it.
I have pity for his family but it doesn't make sense. He broke the law and must be punished.
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Wo Weihan's trial and verdict are made under the laws and constitution of the People's Republic of China. Therefore, other nations should not disrespect China's rule of law and its sovereignty by intervening or commenting about the trial.
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hope one day we will have more chinese people to open mind , see the stories different and to accept the criticism.
listen to the criticism isnt hurt anyone, but what we do here is real killing now.
we are all human, what is the right way to help others. it will never be kill other people.
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I feel sad about the death of the Wo.
what is peace & loving
it is no reason to take other people' s life.
you kill someone, the action as bad as the killer.
as human we are no right to take other person's life whatever any reason. maybe he is so bad to deserve death, but do you want to be same bad like him, kill him is as bad as he is
the western media criticized the chinese government, not to our individually chinese people. we all take this so personally towards other countries, please see things separately. i love china, i will criticized the government and society to help china getting better. it doesnt mean i against the whole chinese people
hope one day we can have more chinese people can understand that.
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@fangyao.
You 'd better find out from whom these critism come from first, then ask them whether they use the standard they use against China to measure their own behavior. They sentenced millions innocent Iraqies, Vitenamese and people from at least a dose of countries they bombed post ww2 to death penalty to achieve their political goals. Only one convicted spy to death penalty? That is nothing compare to what the Axis of the Good have done so far.
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@ 60.
I have no problems with any lawyers if they provide their services to every one. But it appears to me this group of law bugs (whereever they are) argue for the rich ones who can afford to pay them only. Unfair to start with. They have made them self very good livings from arguing for the rich who have troubles with the law. As far as I know, lawers do not have good names in Chinese community.
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to funnyanotherblogger
for sure there are many bad things happen in Western countries as well. but it doesn't give you the right to do what even you want.
they have Iraq war, so should we a Tibet war as well.
look into the criticism whatever are they coming from, it helps you to understand things from different angles.
block yourself by the narrow nationalism, shows how careless is the way you are. it is much more important to help the individual person than the government politics.
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@fangyao.
I do not understand what you are talking about, Tibet war?
There are lots of critisms from all angles. I have no problems with constructive critisms that makes its point. Thanks to some constructive critisms internally and externally, the Chinese government has navegated the nation out of trouble. However, most of critisms come from those people who have no idea what China's problems are or simply some wishful thinking of China haters. Western countries have carried out anti-commie educations for decades and most westeners have very little knowledge of the nation. As a proud nationalist, it is my duty to clearify it if someone is making judgement base on no facts at all.
China is not the only country that has death penalty. USA is another one.
Respect China's law please.
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@fangyao
One more thing. I should help individual than helping government politics? I do not know the individual at all. Do you? All criminals argue that they are innocent. It does not make them innocent. Why should I help him? If you have an anti-cpital punishment mindset then I am sorry that is not the value shared by me. Does that make me careless?
I support the Chinese government for the following reasons:
* It manages to hold 1,3 billion people from 56 ethnics in peace.
* It facilitates fast development the nation needs and lifts millions out of poverty each year.
* It is capable to fend off foreign powers.
Any government that delievers these will have my support. There is no flawless government on this planet can provide all these except the current Chinese government.
They have my support. It is important that the government can detect and punish a spy that threatens national security.
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#98
"I support the Chinese government for the following reasons:
* It manages to hold 1,3 billion people from 56 ethnics in peace"
In peace?!?
So what was all that about in Tibet earlier this year? What about all the terrorists in Xinjiang, the attempted hijacking of planes, the disrution to the olympics, the "province" of Taiwan which will be attacked if it declares independance, the imprisoning and drugging of citizens who complain, growing civil unrest, unequality, corruption?
If I ask people from all 56 minorities, will the agree with you?
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@laowai.
Yes, there are terrorist attacks. From the terrorist in XinJiang to Tibet. It is interesting that you call the terrorists in XinJinag terrorists while ommited the terrorists in Tibet. The Muslim extremists targeted both civillians(bus bombings) and police force. While the Tibetan extremists targeted mainly at innocent non-believers including ethnic Han and Hui. Religious extremists are everywhere in this world. China is not immued to it. This pockets of terrorism by religious extremists in small scale does not reflect the peaceful life enjoyed by majority of the 56 ethnic. Whereever there are a mixture of different ethnics there are always tentions from current or historical conflicts. In China started from primary school, all puipils are told that people from different ethnics are brothers and sisters, we are in one big family. Yes, I left mainland China when I was 30. I am brainwashed. But I would rather be brainwashed this way. The riots in sydney in recent years tells me how easy it is to falre up ethnic, racial, or religious hatred by few rumors and free media.
I have ethnic minority blood myself. I can see how things have been improved within my own family. My grandfather came to BeiJing around 1915 covered up his Mantru background to avoid hostility from majority Han. He did not tell his children about their actual ethnicity until 1960s. He registered all his 4 Children as Han. When I graduated from high school, my father tried unsuccessfully to claim back our ethnic minority status. Because an ethnic minority student is automatically granted with extra marks in Gao Kao ( the National College Entrance test). We are in peace. From hating and killing each other to live peacefully together.
Taiwan is a long story. Although the two parties were bitter enemies in the past they are moving toward cooperations and talks. Are not they? There has been peace, no wars, right?
"imprisoning and drugging of citizens who complain, growing civil unrest, unequality, corruption?"
Ugly things done by poorly trained local officials are flaws of the country. Like any other countries especialy developing countries China is not flawless. Heard of it? Obama's old seat was on sale.
The Chinese media disclosed the drugging and imprisoning case themself, did they? More openess and more media freedom? Count it as a progress made?
Take a look of the whole picture. The country is big with an enormous popullation. Majority of the popullation is happy with the country's directions :)
I am a proudly Chinese government supporter.
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It would seem many here are quick to applaud this apparent "justice" and denounce James as an anti-Chinease blasphemer of sorts. But you seem to miss his point, that the system is closed, secrative, (I for one have never heard of how the courts in China operate) lacks nuetral oversight and in the end answers to the self-appointed government.
In a sense the government has said "Spy! Execute!" and people respond, "Spy? ohe noes!" *Applause.*
Yet the government has been known to blatently lie, I point towards the legal documents regarding China's gymnastics team. Wu Dianyuan and Wang Xiuying... 70 year old women threatened of being thrown into labour camps for applying (yes APPLYING) to protest over their homes being forcefully taken away. Why are nuetral bipartisan websites like Human Rights Watch being blocked by the Government? There are thousands of small stories that give the outside world a grim view of this "magnificent" China.
So excuse us for Questioning the validity of Wo Wiehans case. That is how truth gets revealed by the way... Questions, doubts. But I suppose many anti-western commentators here wouldn't understant that.
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to t_RAV_in_tO:
If everyone were as reasonable as you were, we'd have a lot less problems.
The angry pro-Chinese comments here are not completely directed toward you people who reason, but toward some of the unreasonable cold-war media bias still lurking around these days, catering to the popular taste for profit, I guess. Maybe it's natural for western media to pay more attention to something nasty, we Chinese people simply have a different ideology that everyone is born like an angel while Christian believe everyone is born with sin. So you see, we're used to having our medias report a lot more about the bright side of the society and feel more comfortable that way. Some of the western reporters are so kin to bad news about China that they keep their attention on such insignificant flaws in the Chinese eyes which is what really disgusts us. This is just another typical case, reports getting good attention for routine practice of death penalty in China and good attention means good sale. Why is this report anything special? People are sentenced to death everyday here and only this guy has relatives in the west, which made the news raising concerns and more eyeball catching. You should come to China and see how many western reporters make their living by making up news and blaming the Chinese for everything. It's partly because we don't have a law system powerful enough to charge them for unfaithful reports like what they have back home, though. That's what's causing this anger here. I bet many of you never worked with these people here so I'll give a personal example. During the Olympics which I helped as a translator, one day I acompanied a reporter who wanted to make something out of the ban on aerial activities, so she went knocking some family's door asking "Don't you like flying kites?" Then she tried to break into a residential area of government officers to ask the same questions and the guards denied her access. Later that day she came up with a news something like "Children burst in tears as authorities take away their kites...Reporters being watched by military guards during the Olympics..." Luckily the article was denied publication by the more experienced editor who probably wanted to stay out of trouble. This might give you some insights into how these medias work here and maybe you can see why some are angry.
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to bemusedkevin
sadly enough there are many of the Chinese didnt see your point, the government are very good for brainwashing. most of chinese cant see thing separate. any criticisms to the Chinese government, they will take very personally. they will think you are towards the whole chinese people. i was like this before as well. when i traveled outside china and heard a lot of the criticisms, i took very personal and easy to angry. whatever which kind of criticism is, i always feel this is towards myself, towards my whole chinese region.
so for many reasons we are all victims by the government and society.
hope more and more chinese people will wake up and see things from different side. listen and care more about the people, not just the narrow nationalism and politics.
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@Fangyao
Correct. Governments are good at brainwashing.
After having gone through the culture revolution the Chinese are the most immued people on the planet to brainwashing. All governments brainwash their people. Look at the USA for example. After the republic had 2 terms, had 2 wars with heavy human cost, send the country from surplus to deep debit, robbed middle class and made few armdealers and oil master richer, wrecked the country's economy and international reputation, there are still 47% of the population voted for the party. Why? Because they have been brainwashed to believe the superiority of democracy granted them the licence to bomb other nations and "the America is a force for good" stuff.
If you had mixed up the Chinese government with yourself then that is your problem. Please do not generalise it to 1.3 billion Chinese. I have observed the western media for the last 10 years. What I have found out that they often have very little evidence to back their accusation they made against Chinese government. All the news related to China has the same negative tone which does not reflect the fact. China is a fast changing country with majority of the population happy with the change.
Further more, the western media never stops at criticising Chinese governmnent or the CCP. It is natural for them to think that a monstrous CCP leads a monstrous government which rules the brainwashed people. Anyone who does not speak against CCP or the Chinese government are brainwashed or even paid spies.
Look at this blog. How many times James report negatively on China? Is there anything positive in the country that develops so fast? How much does his report reflect the life of ordinary Chinese and a real China? Very little indeed. Why? Bad news sells? Then do the readers of BBC learn a real China? or the China that BBC wants people to know of?
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This is far more important.
Why have we not heard about it?
What are the implications?
The full article is in the New York Review of Books nybooks.com:
"Volume 56, Number 1 · January 15, 2009
China's Charter 08
Translated from the Chinese by Perry Link
The document below, signed by more than two thousand Chinese citizens, was conceived and written in conscious admiration of the founding of Charter 77 in Czechoslovakia, where, in January 1977, more than two hundred Czech and Slovak intellectuals formed a
loose, informal, and open association of people...united by the will to strive individually and collectively for respect for human and civil rights in our country and throughout the world.
The Chinese document calls not for ameliorative reform of the current political system but for an end to some of its essential features, including one-party rule, and their replacement with a system based on human rights and democracy.."
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to Ganz_Anders:
Why have we not heard about it?
Well, because of the media control? I know I read this news on Chinese media though. Actually we talk a lot more about human rights and freedom in China though most outsiders think. Even leaders like Premier Wen Jiaobao speak about its importance in many major conferences. Why we do not hear about it? It doesn't make a good selling point when compared to complaints about China. However, though we see the importance of democracy and are actually working towardsit, believe it or not, any crash course of democracy would be fully rejected by the government and the Chinese people for we've witnessed the painful memories of the Cultural Revolution and the downfall of the Soviet Union. Both were consequences of crash democracy out of control.
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What your father did is worse than the corrupted officials, if it is about national security.
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I HAVE HEARD THAT MOST CHINESE WHO HAVE A DAY OFF,GRAB SOME FRIENDS AND GO OUT FOR A QUICK ENGLISH.
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