Comparing China and Cuba
Hello again. Just back in China after a bit of time rummaging around Cuba. Although I was there as a tourist and not in any formal reporting role, I hope the Cuban authories will allow me to share some thoughts.
I decided to go there for a simple reason...
There are just five Communist states left in the world: China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba.
These five survived the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union - in effect, they are the remains of the movement that once threatened to dominate the world.
So, after having spent the last two years living in Communist-ruled China, I was curious to see what life was like in another Communist-run country. At the very least, I thought I could sing the Internationale and wave a hammer and sickle if I got into trouble.
There are plenty of similiarities...
The Chinese Communists came to power in 1949, the Cubans in 1959. Each revolution followed a strikingly similar path. Both were led for many years in the wilds by a charismatic leader - Mao Zedong in China, Fidel Castro in Cuba. The legend around each leader was built on a semi-suicidal manoeuvre - the Long March for Mao, the attack on the Moncada Barracks for Castro. Each man carried out his revolution against a regime portrayed as brutal and corrupt (the way museum exhibits in Havana condemn the indulgences of the ousted leader Fulgencio Batista reminded me of the way China routinely condemns the way the Dalai Lama used to live in Tibet).
After each revolution, each set of losers set up camp on the other side of a narrow strait directly facing their homeland - Chiang Kai-shek took his supporters to Taiwan, and Batista's supporters formed an exile community in Florida. These respective straits became sources of military tension for decades.
When you wander about Cuba, you tend to bump into things that remind you of China. On many streets there are signs for the local "Comite de la Defensa de la Revolucion" (Committee for the Defence of the Revolution) - the local neighbourhood organisation that keeps an eye on people's lives, similar to work units in China. Each party has managed to stay in power because of its ability to make its presence felt on every street, and in every house.
Both Communist Parties see themselves as instruments for social (and ideally moral) betterment. In Havana I came across signs encouraging alcoholics to get help at meetings. In one village I read a notice telling people to neuter their dogs. And then, there are the slogans - sayings from Castro and from Che Guevara printed on walls and placards across the country. Add this to what you find in China, and it's unlikely you can walk more than a few yards in either country without coming across wise words from your leaders (if you haven't been to a Communist country, it's a bit like seeing the Ten Commandments and the sayings of Churchill stuck all over Oxford Street).
Each state cultivates a strong sense of national pride and is sustained by the view that its enemies are out to destroy it. In Cuba, the enemy is the United States (a sign on the semi-finished motorway outside Havana says that the road would be finished quickly, if only the US ended its blockade). In China, the enemy is a West apparently keen to keep the country down and go back to the days of 19th century colonialism. But, this need for an official enemy doesn't always filter down to ordinary people - I've found ordinary Cubans and Chinese people to be incredibly hospitable to visitors.
Neither state tolerates any kind of political dissent - nor does it see any immediate need for general elections. The revolutions that brought each party to power are treated as never-ending mandates - no need for the trouble of a popular vote since the revolution is viewed as a permanent popular verdict.
Those are the similarities. But the differences are just as striking...
Cuba looks like it's stuck in 1959 - with old cars and crumbling buildings. China often looks like it's decided to skip ahead to 2059 - with a set of dazzling skyscrapers, stadiums and airports.
Cuba is still run by the men who carried out its revolution (Fidel Castro's younger brother Raul Castro is the president; Fidel himself still pops up regularly in his new job of newspaper columnist). These are men who work under a US embargo, who have not dramatically changed their ideology in half a century.
But China is run by its fourth generation - men who are several steps removed from the original revolution. These are men who do business with the entire world, who have inherited a system which traded socialism for capitalism a generation ago.
Both countries once tried to export revolution. But now China prefers simply to export goods.
Cuba is still a socialist country. It takes great pride in its free, well-developed education and health care systems (every few blocks in Havana you tend to run into a public health clinic.) China used to have free public services - but gave them up when it introduced market reforms in the 80s. As a result, many now believe that China is now one of the least socialist countries in the world. Tens of millions of migrant workers in China have no health care (a fact that worries the government which has promised to bring back free or affordable services.)
Cuba is still a noticeably poor country - I came across long queues for bread, and people still use ration books to buy food (one woman took me through hers, explaining how much rice she was allowed to buy every month).
By contrast, parts of China are staggeringly opulent. There's an international sportswear shop in Beijing that sells NBA jerseys and Chinese Olympic uniforms - rows and rows of goods perfectly displayed over three floors. I went to the equivalent shop in Havana - a bunch of shirts were crammed onto racks in one room. I asked if I could buy a Cuban Olympic uniform but was told that they'd run out a long time ago (ordering any more didn't appear to be an option).
To get rich in Cuba you have to leave the island. But, in China you can get rich in your homeland.
The one-party state of Cuba has bet on socialism as a way to stay in power. The one-party state of China has decided that money's a better bet than equality.
Which way wins?
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
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I would be interested to read your possible articles of comparing the following two areas:
History of the United Kingdom and China;
The current two countries of the United Kingdom and China.
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"In China, the enemy is a West apparently keen to keep the country down and go back to the days of 19th century colonialism."
Our 'enemy', if such a term is appropriate, is not the 'West', as you mistakenly believe. In fact, we are quite fond of Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, Belgium etc. Our gripes lie with the anglo-french axis of nations, who, after pillaging our treasures and killing our ancestors, now have the audacity to wonder why we are poorer than them, and have less respect for 'human rights'.
Perhaps if Britain could hand back some of the Chinese treasures displayed so opulently in the British Museum, we could then start to forgive.
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China never give up their socialism. You need to know Capitalism is only the means, communism is their aims.
Frankly speaking, it's no use to talk about so-called -ism, you dare to say UK is a capitalism country, there are also many socialism things.
No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat, a cat that can catch rats is a good cat.
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good to have you back James
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Nice to have you back, James. A question:
"At the very least, I thought I could sing the Internationale and wave a hammer and sickle if I got into trouble."
Was there any sense of fraternity between the two countries? As two of the last communist countries left in the world, do they have much of a bond on a public level?
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well. at least they have one of the best health care systems in the world. american can go there to get treated. may brits can do that as well, instead of waiting for a year to get an appointment.
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China and Cuba "portrayed" their predecessor regimes as corrupted? The word portrayed sounds like it is not true. Come on James, be honest, Chiang and Batista regimes were indeed corrupted. That is the truth. Even one of KMT generals found out there is communist spy in their ranks because that spy was different than his other colleagues, the spy was not corrupted.
As which ways will win? I think Deng Xiao Ping has the answer already. No matter black or white cat, as long as it can catch a mouse, it is a good cat. The point is to have the balance here between capitalistic economy and socialist welfare of the people.
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Welcome back! James,
I am sure you are missed by many of us, including those who delight in finding fault with every single word you write and those who continue to keep a watchful eye on you----a potential ?poison pen? western journalist who might ?patronise? or even ?distort? China with his wry humour.
Well, just like love and hatred are reversible, time can change even the most deeply entrenched national pride and prejudice----maybe longer for those obstinate minds and iron-clad hearts.
Interesting comparisons between Cuba and China, a bit hard to relate to though, except for sports----two countrys often meet in international volleyball matches.
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Hello, James:
Welcome back to China!
I hope that you had a nice time in Cuba!
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Fidel was, and still is, the hard line Communist. Raul is a more pragmatic Socialist, more in line with the current Chinese thinking. And both are looking to learn more from the one truly successful Socialist country in the world - Singapore !!
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?There are just five Communist states left in the world: China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba. ?
James,
You are wrong again! There are far more than 5 communist countries in today?s world.
For instance, USA is a communist country: monopoly is illegal; big banks are nationalized; primary schools are free? All these (total 10 points) are stated in The Manifesto of Communist Party by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels as characteristics of communism:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. ?partially realized in USA
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. ? completely realized in USA
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. . ?partially realized in USA
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. . ? the latter is realized in USA
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. -- mostly realized in USA
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. -- mostly realized in USA
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. -- some realized in USA
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. -- completely realized in USA (e.g. Affirmative Action)
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. -- mostly realized in USA
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. -- completely realized in USA
Dare you say that USA is not a communist country?
In addition, isn't communism very good?
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beijing_2008: I can understand that English is not your first language as you have unfortunately misunderstood our good friend James.
As you quoted, James wrote "In China, the enemy is a West apparently keen to keep the country down and go back to the days of 19th century colonialism."
James did not write that the west is an enemy to China. He actually means that China considers her enemy to be western attempts to keep the country in the past, which in my opinion doesn't really happen.
Regarding the Chinese artifacts in the British Museum. They are on display in the British museum in respect of China and to allow everybody to enjoy them. Britain taking these prevented them being destroyed during the cultural revolution. You should be thankful that we helped keep Chinese history alive.
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manpet: The history of the UK and China can be found online if you search for it. James is writing about things that he experiences whilst in China. He isn't here to get into discussions about the past with you.
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2 - in spite of your apparant disdain for "human rights," you must acknowledge surely that yours is a fairly limp excuse for your government abusing your own population?
3 - you must be joking. Have you ever read any Marx, or Lenin? Modern China would be simply repugnant to them: you have thrown Communism to the winds in the name of making money. Yes, the UK has undergone continuing social revisionism, perhaps partly influenced by Communistic pressures throughout the last century, but our politics, economics and philosophy still centre on our traditional Capitalist model. This is in no way comparable to China, which still claims to be a Communist nation, ruled by the "Communist Party," despite having abandoned all real forms of socialism. The contemporary Chinese proletariat is more exploited than that of Marx's descriptions of the lower element of the revolution-ripe dialectic!
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China never give up their socialism. You need to know Capitalism is only the means, communism is their aims.
Frankly speaking, it's no use to talk about so-called -ism, you dare to say UK is a capitalism country, there are also many socialism things.
No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat, a cat that can catch rats is a good cat.
Nice to have you back James.
As you can see, nothing much has changed since you last posted, beijing_2008 is still the angry person he is. Now I wonder where vodoohaze has gone off to...
So, #2 beijing_2008, it's not the "West" that you treat as your 'enemy', only the anglo-french axis of nations. Thank you for clearing that up! Now if we could only find out which nations are part of that...
I must argue though, that even if 'they' (meaning the anglo-french dadada) did killed your ancestors (for which you'd necessarily won't exist), and pillage your treasures, you'd still have to substantiate the allegation that "they" think "you're" poorer than them. And no, it's not audacious to wonder why your gov't seems to have less regard for human rights, because it is true.
Now, about your last statement, the answer is a big MAYBE. We really don't know for sure if that is really what it takes.
Your turn
MJ
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Nice to have you back James.
As you can see, nothing much has changed since you last posted, beijing_2008 is still the angry person he is. Now I wonder where vodoohaze has gone off to...
So, #2 beijing_2008, it's not the "West" that you treat as your 'enemy', only the anglo-french axis of nations. Thank you for clearing that up! Now if we could only find out which nations are part of that...
I must argue though, that even if 'they' (meaning the anglo-french dadada) did killed your ancestors (for which you'd necessarily won't exist), and pillage your treasures, you'd still have to substantiate the allegation that "they" think "you're" poorer than them. And no, it's not audacious to wonder why your gov't seems to have less regard for human rights, because it is true.
Now, about your last statement, the answer is a big MAYBE. We really don't know for sure if that is really what it takes.
Your turn
MJ
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I believe it is truly out of date to keep labeling China and Cuba Communist states. With the positioning of China in the global market, the term communism has progressively been losing coherent substance.
Let me use Wikipedia: Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless society based on common ownership of the means of production and property in general.
Today, just the degenerate rule of Burma fits the 'old' terminology.
Therefore, I read this post as a comparison between two single-party ruled states, with a similar communist background.
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It?s good to see the return of the excellent Blog. Nice one James.
The problem, as ever, is with the comments. Ultra-nationalist Chinese with the ever-perpetual bone to pick. Why they visit this blog for a daily dose of anger is unknown to me. Perhaps they feel they're doing their ?bit? for China by ranting.
I swear Beijing_2008 is paid by the CCP to put the BBC in its place. Western nations are richer because we were the first to industrialise, modernise, and you have taken your time to copy us! Japan became rich fairly quickly, don?t you think? Why didn?t China? Look for the reasons inside your own country, don?t blame your problems on everyone else, no sane, objective historian blames the developing status of China on the so called ?Anglo-French axis of Nations?. Everything about modern China wasn?t determined by the Anglo-Chinese wars!
Furthermore, are you ashamed of having Chinese artifacts on view to the world? Be proud that humans besides the Chinese have the ability to appreciate such exquisite exhibits, please! Are you lacking ?treasures? in China?
And xixiiangtianzi, you need to realise that capitalism is not antithetical to socialism.
And Manpet, I know from your previous posts that you are trying to make some point (probably about the ?evils? of the British in China? in history), but really, your broken English makes no sense. Keep trying though!
Most of us merely ignore the idiotic ramblings of the more extreme of these people, but sometimes, giving a response is fun. (especially if I get an angry response in return)
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Whoops sorry about the 1st post, my 2nd reply is showing.
Anyways, #3 xixiangtianzi, I understand that it really is hard to comment in English if you've never had to use the language frequently, although I do get where you're coming from.
to explain the isms though (and I wish someone would correct me if i'm wrong), simply put, socialism is like living in a village of 10 people; 2 fishermen, 2 farmers, 2 tailors, and 4 lazy men. In socialist society, every single person, even those 4 who did not contribute anything at all, will share the day's catch in fish, the farm produce, and the shirts tailored ALL EQUALLY. That is Socialism. In a capitalist society, the fishermen will have to trade his fish w/ the farmer to get some eggs, meat or vegetables, the tailor will have to trade his shirts to get some fish/eggs/milk/meat. The lazy men go hungry and die. That is Capitalism, EQUAL TRADE.
Saying that China will not give up socialism is therefore incorrect, because the Chinese economy is now working on the capitalist idea of free trade.
Now as to your assertion that capitalism is only their[China's] means and communism their aims, you'll need to expound on that further.
And no, the UK is not a capitalist country, no country is fully capitalist nor socialist, every gov't is really a mixture of both. You see, taxation is actually a form of socialism. As to saying there's no need to talk about isms, you started it.
As to whether the cat is white/black that as long as it catches rats it's a good cat, I agree with you on that. Although I would prefer the cat that doesn't break the plates and ruin the furniture in the process of catching the rat. Efficiency is important, after all.
Right?
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Hi and welcome back James!
well I have to say the question you make is a bit pseudo in my eyes.
1) Communism or socialism is never a Chinese thing or Cuba thing. Communism/socialism origin in Germany to be precise..each country has its different situations and very different background why it adopt varies social format.
In China you say the mainland adopt communism because the government is ruled by communist party named 'Chinese communist party' but there is places adopt 'democracy' in Hongkong and Macao or maybe Taiwan in the near future. Who knows...
You of course won't say the democracy in Congo is real democracy because the full name of that country is 'DRC' --Democratic republic of Congo.
2) My point is those 'democracy', 'freedom', 'WMD' (yeah WMD lol) etc are just words used by politicians(mainly in 'some' hypocrisy countries). Will human kind send army to 'free' aliens in the future if we found they are still in slavery on Mars?
Every country will adopt the form of government best for its own(well thou some are better in theory but corruption exists in every form so far)
to be continued.....
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3) Again China never think any country is their enemy. We are not some superpower searching for enemy on this planet and fight with 'hidden' enemies on foreign land.
Please don't use the word 'west' here because some of the thing did by hypocrisy governments is commit ed by all the western countries like Switzerland, Spain, etc and the list goes on. DON'T PUT THE WHOLE WORLD TO BACK YOU UP WHEN YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. In my eyes it's like a gangster did something stupid and trying to fend people off by saying "If you touch me my clan will come after you blah blah blah"
I found many British people are very hospitable to visitors as well but that doesn't change my idea some of your foreign policy is out of date and not clean.
BTW I can't see the point you compare Fulgencio Batista with Dalai at all.
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The author of this article is cheating. I think he didn't know today's China. his discribtion about China is all about the China 30 years ago.
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There are two components of communism: socialism and totalitarianism. China has long discarded the first component, so it would be wrong to still call its a communist country.
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That was an excellent and insightful article. It's so rare to find a fair and non-judgemental view on socialism!
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Good article, James. Typical responses from the oversensitive brigade - say the slightest thing about China and you're a biased anti-China force bent on destroying the motherland. I don't see what you've written that's so offensive. Just observations.
As for communism once threatening to dominate the world, I think it might come back, but this time it will have my support. The more help I see being thrown at the greedy fat bankers while little people go under, the more leftwing I become. I and millions of others are growing angrier by the minute.
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James, your fundamental misunderstanding of China is truly shocking, if not laughable. Suggest you do a bit of proper research before you write any such stereotypical, superficial drivel in the future.
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I am fortunate to be the only foreigner working in a Chinese company. Every week I hold "creative thinking" classes, where I get everyone together and we have a good debate about something.
Mostly we talk about Baidu vs Google, or other such things, but we also occasionally get off track and talk about politics.
These events, in my 6 years in the country has been the most insightful into knowing how Chinese people think.
I think it's important to know that most Chinese people do thinking differently from Westerners. It seems an obvious point, considering the historical and geographical bounderies, but when people demonstrate that they have a really different set of values and priorities it is always surpising eye-opening.
On occasions however, it has been a little scary, particularly when we talk about politics. The scariness comes from the fact that people will call China a socialist country and then admit there is no socialism in the same sentence, and feel no sense of irony. Or if I'll ask them a "hot" question and get a unified reply, but with no understanding of why they replied that, and bemusement at the idea that they would need to understand their reply.
It really is Orwell's "1984" here, I never thought it was before.
I think that China's communism is still alive in it's army, government and education system, but at the end of the day it is CHINA's communism, not Soviet or Cuban.
China's communism, called "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is just that; a complete contradiction of itself with no sense of irony.
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In your list of still communist countries, I'm wondering why you omitted Venezuela? It seems that Hugo Chavez espouses something much closer to true Marxism than the Chinese Communist Party.
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It is a good thing to have intellectual curiosity, to share one's thoughts and to then offer them for comment. This would ultimately lead to a better World. So, thank you, James!
The American blockade and sabotage has indeed put Cuba into a material time warp. It also appears that Cuba is in an ideological warp, also.
An essential premise of Castro is that people evaluate their well-being by comparison with other people. It is better then to be equal than to have some rich and many poor.
However, people are not all equal by nature, so the natural development results in rich and poor.
The problem in China is one of government, of how best to rule the society for the benefit of the people. Constant change for improvement is attempted.
To see how the Party goes about attempting this would make a fascinating study.
"Democracy" is not a very useful word.
Beyond the scale of a small village, it could not be realized.
The "people" do not rule in any nation. Government "by" the people seems impossible. The best one can hope for is government "for" the people.
The question then becomes how to select the leadership and how to restrain the leadership from becoming too selfish.
If one compares the USA and China over the past eight years, one may see this as an open question.
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Hi James,I don't think you really know china.Part of your description is a little biased
like"So, after having spent the last two years living in Communist-ruled China, I was curious to see what life was like in another Communist-run country" It sounds like communist country is born to be evil and capitalist country is justice. But it is quite understandable given that you grow up in UK and what you have heard and learn in your growing experience is that communist is symbol of dark side.
-ism is not important anymore,especially after the break out of credit crisis worldwide. whatever the government does,as long as the whole country can go through such rough time,staving off nation bankruptcy like poor Iceland.The government should be praised.
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Karl Marx apparently invented a very handy template for designing the worst places on earth. No matter how you bend and twist it, Communism is a nightmare to live under. I see little difference between the firing squad walls of Cuba's moro castle, to China's prisons, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the wall in Berlin, even the Katyn Forrest of Poland. A human tradgedy on every level. If asked what you did to improve the human condition you could say with more than a little pride that you fought communism.
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An oft repeated comment on China's economic progress has been - In Socialist China there is equality but no prosperity or freedom. In Capitalist China there is prosperity but no equality or freedom. It is better to have prosperity because there is no need for equality and money can buy all the freedom you need !!
From all the news coming out of Cuba, Raul Castro seems to think that the Chinese/Singaporean model may be his best bet to keep control of the country !! Already he is allowing private ownership of goods that were once forbidden to the public.
His farm reforms cannot be a bad thing, too !!
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welcome back. James.
I think it's you who have not dramatically changed your ideology half a century ago.
i have read a lot of articles. you have always given me an impression that you have never discarded the ideology of the cold war.
this article is a very good example. you've always tried to amuse the West.(the anglo-french axis of nations) with eyes of ideology. why can't you just compare them without mentioning their social systems.
Actually we don't think social system is a big issue now. we don't care whether it's capatsism or socialism. I wonder why are you still clinching it?
And we don't care whether it's the Communist Party or Kuoming Party(the Nationalists) ruling China only if the party can make us lead a better life.
so please write articles with an objective and part-system-free perspective.
And please get rid of you arrogance and bias running deep in your veins.
Iam looking forward to seeing the change.
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Beijing_2008: If you did your research you would know that many of the artefacts in the British museum were sold by locals to the British and not stolen as you Chinese 'victims' always like to say. Perhaps I should go over to China and ask for compensation for all those British products which your fake factories stole from us and continue to steal every day (for example, DVD's and CD's)?
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ames, a fundamental problem with your efforts to compare is that Cuba's was not a communist revolution. The Cuban Communist Party was not formed until July 1961, more than two years after Castro's 1959 revolution. Indeed, Castro famously declared "I don't agree with communism. We are democracy. We are against all kinds of dictators.... That is why we oppose communism" on his first trip to the US in April 1959. It was only in December 1961, after the US' Bay of Pigs' invasion' and a period of nationalisation of US interests and increasingly hostility between Cuba and the US did he declare that Cuba would adopt communism. Thus it was never a communist revolution, as China's was in 1949. And while we are correcting facts, you have one too many las in your naming of the committee to defend the revolution. Facts are good.
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When I was a child, I heard more about Socialism and Capitalism, but now less and less. As for me, I don't care about Socialism or Capitalism. What I do care is whether the people can have a better life. We've all seen the progress our Chinese made in all walks of life, economic, welfare, human right, etc.
One funny thing, there appearred to be a lot of state-owned large companies in western countries, like Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae. Can you say nothing like Socialism existing in the so-called Capitalism? I have to say, there is a lot which resembles capitalism in China. I don't care. It's suitable and good for us, so I like it.
As for one-party state, I admit it will bring something bad but I do think it has its own advantage ---- good for stability and saving large amount of money and quick to make efficient decision when urgent affairs happened suddenly.... It may demonstrate more demoncracy in two or more-party state but is it really and completely demoncratic? I don't think so, demoncracy belongs to the majority of the people both in Social and Capital nations. Besides, there are also many problems for two or more-party state: 1. It wastes a lot of money in election; 2.The candidates tend to do whatever they can to win the election. 3. It sometimes brings about turbulence, eg. the conflict occurred in Thailand lately. What I see most is the Taiwan political stage, the two parties play roles like two crowds of mobs. 4. It takes a long time to make a decision when an urgent affair comes out.
In a world, both have their own advantages and disadvantages and we can't say which one is better. Maybe we can just ignore the difference and try to choose the best model for your own.
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James is such a hard working person even use his own holiday research on communism. So, James, after so much hard work, can you answer me one question? What is the Chinese Communist Party doing in China? Implementing comminism? socialism? or capitalism? After 2 years in the unbearable China(to James), what your answer is? I can tell you mine. The CCP is implementing capitalism. The current CCP has nothing to do with communism. The only reason make James try so hard to link China to communism is: to wake up the near religion anti-commies.
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Australia has not bad socialism. The healthcare system has a long waiting list. If you were unlucky and got cancer then you would have to wait and might get treated after your cancer spread to other parts of your body.
Where is CCP? Stop copying other systems. Develop your own.
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Beijing_2008: "Our 'enemy', if such a term is appropriate, is not the 'West', as you mistakenly believe. In fact, we are quite fond of Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, Belgium etc. Our gripes lie with the anglo-french axis of nations, who, after pillaging our treasures and killing our ancestors, now have the audacity to wonder why we are poorer than them, and have less respect for 'human rights'. Perhaps if Britain could hand back some of the Chinese treasures displayed so opulently in the British Museum, we could then start to forgive. "
Utter rubbish. I am Chinese, and I am ashamed of our anti-foreigner cultural facism sentiments. The west attacked the boxer rebellion because the Chinese people murdered thousands of Christian missionaries and their families, as well as traders of opium. Whilst opium had a corrupting effect on Chinese society, it did not amount to the retribution dealt by the Chinese rebellion. The west pillaged China because we failed to pay appropirate reparations. Before, the rebellion, there was a strong economic trading relationship.
China, my motherland, can never be strong, because we only like foreigners that say good things about us. Human rights is NOT a big problem in ivory tower cities, but 70% of our rural population is suppressed. It is disgusting that so many people ignore this because they live a life of middle-class luxury.
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Incidentally, I went to Cuba as well last year. I do find drawing modern comparisons extremely difficult. Whilst there are similarities in historical trajectory, the sheer differences in geography, culture and history, divides China and Cuba.
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Don't believe I just read a post with 'stealing' national treasures and CDs in the same sentence. I wonder what the British museum would actually say if the Chinese decide to take back their artefacts? And for the poster that said 'doesn't China have enough of their own', they obviously didn't know that many books, scriptures, and artefacts were burned and destroyed by 'Westerners' namely the French and British.
Now, I don't really see any of these historical deeds as any relevance to the current sino-western tension (some people still feel angry about the past), but at least get the facts straight.
I agree with the post that argues the problem of communism = evil. Communism is a system that only works in a perfect world. Communism has faults, as does a democracy. You'd be better off describing the advantages and disadvantages of the systems in the UK and China, and you'd probably find aspects of the Chinese system that could - or should - be adopted over here in the UK - Vice Versa.
The US and UK are moving slowly to becoming a police state, ruled by a single party, the government - because whether you like it or not, republican/democrats are controlled by the same corporations and background manipulators. Labour/Conservatives are essentially the same party.
If the Chinese guy above is angry, he has a reason to be. It doesn't make him a government official.
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I don't know if James' report is totally true.
According to the UN report in 2008, Beijing is the most equal city in the world and cities in China are generally more equal than cities in the west/US.
Although difference between rural areas and cities in China are widening, it's just becos some areas get developed first before others.
No doubt life in the rural area is difficult (with limited government services), but you get something different: nature, sustainable developments, closer family tie, traditions and happiness, which are not measured by GDP.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Senlin: Can you kindly point out which item is 'sold' by locals in British museum?
Or maybe Beijing_2008's comment touched your sensitive nerv that u afraid those artifacts will sooner or later return to its origin?
Even If there are some items were 'sold' by locals(I believe there are)Beijing_2008 didn't say all of the Chinese items are snatched by british right? If they are sold by locals then let them stay. EASY.
About fake thing...hah those are illegal in China as well so if you want go blame the fake maker but not China. I bought a brush made in France from Argos the other day and it broke when I use it do I blame French people? of course not I blame the people who make it!
Make some sence! Senlin means forest not nonsense in Chinese at least =P
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to flibblesan,
Everyone in China wants Chinese artifacts in the British Museum to be returned to its homeland.
The french and british army burnt down the summer palace (garden) and looted many chinese artifacts in the palace. And you call it a protection of artifacts?
Also, cultural revolution would not have destroyed these Chinese artifacts. The artifacts in the forbidden city were protected during the cultural revolutions. The red mob destroyed temples but nothing in palaces which were protected by the army.
It's your selfishness to legitimise looting and suggest these Chinese artifacts should remain in the UK.
Pehaps few years later you can say that the artifacts looted in Iraq since the Iraq war should remain in the UK as they would otherwise be destroyed during the civil war.
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After reading your views, I can?t help pointing out some misinformation and misconceptions shared by many Western people according to what I know and from my perspective as a Chinese.
Although China is led by its Communist Party, it is incorrect to say that it is a Communist country. It is just like saying that the UK was a conservative country when it was run by the Conservative Party. I found that the Chinese government?s self-description as a Socialist country with Chinese characteristics better reflected its unusual blending of market driven economy and socialist politics.
I don?t quite agree that Mao?s legend was built on the Long March. Although important in the 1930?s, it was a retreat and was just a small part of Mao?s legend. A much more significant part of his legend was how he led the poorly equipped PLA to defeat the US armed KMD during the civil war in the 1940?s.
I also feel that it is very outdated to say that the national pride of China is sustained by the view that its enemies are out to destroy it. This might be the case (and it was the fact) in the 1950?s and 1960?s, most Chinese today will not agree with your comment. Most Chinese people will say that their national pride is sustained by the economic and technological success. Quite interestingly, your comment is much more apt for the US which administration has been consistently reminding their people that there are enemies determined to destroy their country so as to justify their wars on other people?s land and boost support of their suppression of their enemies? human rights.
It was true that Chinese leader?s words (almost all from Mao) were found everywhere in the 1960?s. However, today, these can only be found on walls in old streets that haven?t been repainted for decades. The Chinese characters you now see in the streets are just things like ?Observe Work Safety Rules?, or ?Let?s Contribute to Our Country?, etc. They are general encouraging slogans but most do not come from the leaders. I prefer these to ?Let?s Drink Coke?.
When reading your comment that China once tried to export revolution, it took me a long while to guess what countries you are referring to. I don?t know of any ?Chinese political advisers? in foreign countries while there are numerous US political and military advisers in almost every country in conflict in the world. If you are referring to Korea or Vietnam, China was only helping its neighbours to respond to the US?s export of their democracy. The Maoists in Nepal have not been assisted by China though they are inspired by Mao. I hope you can elaborate on this point.
Last but not the least, it is very wrong to say that China has decided that money is a better bet than equality. This may be the simplistic view held by many Western people in the street, but certainly not by someone who has more than skin-deep knowledge of China. What appears to be a matter of money and equality is in fact the choice of developing the coastal areas first thus allowing a smaller proportion of people to get rich sooner than the others, or developing all parts of the country at the same pace. Tang decided that the former strategy is more efficient and appropriate to the situations of China, though there are still different views on this.
Overall, I read your article with interest, but also with a sigh.
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Whilst I cannot dare to compare Cuba and China, I have to agree with some of your comments on China.
Being from 'capatilist' Britain, and now living in China, I can indeed agree with you that China feels like it has 'fast forward' to 2059, although I am slightly Biased, given that I have spent the last 2 years in Shanghai.
I think it is fair to say that Shanghai has adopted a style of socio-capitalism that strikes a perfect balance for me. I only have one complaint - Its really difficult to take money out of the country (legally), but sitting on the other side of the fence for a minute, where would the goverment rather have the money? In the banks of the west, amidst an economic collapse, or here in China? I know what I would be doing if I were running the show.....
To those who would dare complain about human rights, think about the number of people in China; would you want 1.3 billion people rioting?
If you respect the governemnt, they will respect you.
How many of these "human rights" activists have ever been to China I wonder......
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after reading this, I feel really sorry for you, James, as your opinions are significant influnenced by what you had been told. and obviously you selectively illustried the one you would like to constriction your articles.
but you simply not been process the information you had recevied in a deeper way.
As you appiont out the set-backs of both the countries are not persenting a whole picture of the problems and where the problems generated. But put great effort on the political system's advocacy functions.
I learned nothing more but only agree with other commenting on your simple mistakes.
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#31 neo,
The bias is in your mind. James has been living in China for 2 years, it is a communist-run country, and so is Cuba. Now if being called a communist offends you, I don't think James has to apologize for that, anymore than you will need to apologize for calling him a Queen's subject.
Although I am curious. How did you know that every person living in the UK has been brought up in the idea that communism is a symbol of the dark side? Otherwise, you would not be making the assumption that James has been brought up in a similar way.
And yes, your government is doing a pretty good job in maintaining your economy during this crisis. Good job!
Open minds forum, right?
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James only counted the communist states 'left' in the world but forgot to count a new member - the current ruling party in Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal is the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist).
A few posters brought up the subject of Chinese artefacts stolen by western powers. It's a matter of time most if not all of them will be returned to China, just like Hongkong.
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neither wins.
Incidentally, in a one-party-ruled state, no matter what style you're in - Chinese or Caribbean, 1959 or 2059 - singing the Internationale and waving a hammer or an axe or a sickle at a place like the Tiananmen Square would definitely get you into plenty of trouble.
"Power not dead, Money for life." The party says.
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#34,
I honestly think your one of those people who don't care what your country does as long as you can keep your western clothes, cellphone, computer, and your carefree lifestyle.
And anyway, It would the case of the kettle calling the pot black when you call James an arrogant, biased person.
This being JAMES REYNOLD'S BLOG, everything is told according from HIS point of view, which means this is not really an objective article for news reporting, but a subjective online diary open for perusal.
There is never an unbiased view, but journalists still try to get close to the ideal as much as possible.
For my part, I am looking forward to seeing you using spellcheck and proper english grammar, #34.
Call me fan.... James's fan.
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#35 hizento,
The solution to your problem is simple: Find another blog or chatroom to comment on, and stay there.
If your that much offended, why not just stay away? To rephrase that, If you get stinged by a jellyfish, why keep touching it?
But if your always itching for a fight(I'm sorry, I mean reasonable debate) you'll always be welcome.
Cheers to common sense!
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Just to respond to some of the criticisms directed against me.
#13 It's absolutely the case that established powers are trying to keep China weak. The US tried hard to deny China WTO entry; Britain, Germany, and France continue to harp on about human rights (ignoring, of course, their involvement in extraordinary renditions); the CIA is continuing to stir up troubles in Tibet; The European Union Arms Embargo is still in place; the US continues to deny export of high-technology goods to China... I can go on and on;
#17 The axis of nations I was alluding to are Germany, The United States, France, Tsarist Russia, Japan, Italy and Austria.
#17 Why must I be an angry person if I defend China?
#19 I'm not a spokesman for the CCP.
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Welcome back James.
Been reading on China for awhile and while I sometimes do not agree with your assessments I always appreciate your point of view. Just wanted to write this as a counter to 'mikelore' post. With no examples and just one blanket generalization it is hard to guess at what he found so upsetting - hard to garner support for a point of view.
Also, happy to see Chinese responders on the BBC site. Hopefully more and more of them will be from within China's borders.
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to #19, a_briton:
I agree that ultra-nationalist Chinese often direct blame on other perceived enemies. It angers me too, because I feel that fellow Chinese should be better than that, and that nationalism (instead of patriotism) is a very dangerous thing. However, I don't think it's wrong to say that it would be nice if certain 'past enemies' were a bit more gracious, and actively SHOW that they are no longer 'actual enemies'. I don't mean that they should condone ills in China and pretend that China is perfect, and I know British museums have a policy against giving artifacts back, but an apology akin to 'sorry for ransacking your nation' would certainly be appreciated.
It's frustrating when you write, 'I swear Beijing_2008 is paid by the CCP to put the BBC in its place.' This is a comment I often run into, as if it's impossible to express non-liberal-Western opinions without being paid by one sinister group or the other. Although you might not agree with his/her comments, I know from personal experience that it is particularly insulting to have opinions disregarded in this way.
Also, I think it's exaggerated to say that China 'perceives' all these enemies. Having grown up in the United States and having visited China, I definitely feel that United States perception of China is much worse than the Chinese perception of the United States. Yes, there are some historical grudges that Chinese people hold (not necessarily the government so much), and like everywhere else in the world, there is some xenophobia, but they don't dominate current treatment of foreigners at all.
As for Jame's question of which way is better:
Unfortunately, it's really difficult to 'judge' in terms of goodness, fairness or equality. Personally, I feel there's always a sort of negative feedback in terms of 'equality'. For example, it's unfortunate that economically-disadvantaged students can't get into good private schools, but would it be fair to tell parents with money to stop providing all they can for their children just because other parents can't afford the same? Thus, social equalities (ie. the right of all people to spend as much money and use as much power as they can afford) affect economic equalities (ie, the right of all people to receive the the same level and quality of education, housing, employment, etc.) Doesn't the equal right of everyone to achieve their maximum potential (which is also affected by circumstance, intelligence and luck) then affect the social-economic equality of all people in a nation? Communist states choose to balance this problem by trying to eliminate factors like unequal distribution of wealth and incentives, but it's difficult (and also unfair, thus unequal again) to eliminate factors like intelligence and luck. However, without any government supervision, the rich will get richer and the poor get poorer. Thus, it's sort of tightrope walk for the government, to meddle just enough to be a safety net and ease social discontent, but meddle not enough not to reset the scale every millisecond.
I can't speak for Cuba, but the CCP in the last twenty years has gone from one extreme to the other. Now, the government is not doing enough to be a safety net, it's not catching people falling through the cracks, and it should re-establish certain elements of its old welfare and healthcare system. That doesn't mean it should go back to assigning jobs and other forms of large scale social engineering. It's not the legal obligation (although some moral and social responsibility would be nice) of the rich Chinese to help their poorer compatriots. But, it is the duty of the government to make sure 70% of the 1.3 billion population isn't left in the dust. Deng Xiaoping once said, 'let a group become rich first' Well, guess what? Phase I complete, it's time to think about helping the others.
I'm not sure if that was coherent, but I hope someone else will make some sense out of it.
Welcome back James. Though I don't always agree with you, thank you for writing about China without being bigotted.
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One other point of comparison: both countries invest heavily in the production of Medal winning Olympic Athletes. In the case of China this was vividly demonstrated in the recent Olympics. In the case of Cuba they have created boxing academies where children are taken from the age of ten and submitted to a rigorous training routine in the hope that they will become Olympic boxers in the future. Until the last Olympics Cuba has won a very large number of Boxing medals in succesive Olympics putting it in very high in the rankings. This year the policy failed because, in best Cuban style they rewarded their boxers with prestige but not money: the result is that many of their best boxers defected to become professionals in the West and to qualify for the rewards that go with ithat status.
In this respect both countries have followed in the footsteps of the old USSR and East Germany where they invested heavily in their athletes in the hope that it would bring prestige for their nations and demonstrate the superiority of Communism as a political ideology
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#2's wish may come true soon,it won't be a bad idea for the UK selling off the stuffs in order to shore up her economy.
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Analyze China on its own terms and merits
www.chinaview.cn 2008-10-31 11:07:58
By Victor Paul Borg
BEIJING, Oct. 31 -- Now that the Olympic-era provisions for foreign journalists allowing unfettered interviews and movement have been indefinitely extended, will foreign journalists report about China more objectively?
It's a question that some commentators in China have posed, but objectivity is not easy to define. For "objectivity" isn't an immutable entity, something that you either possess or you don't; what constitutes objectivity is subjective.
Every story has different angles, and the angle that a journalist chooses arises out of a mix of personal beliefs or perceptions, the perceived interest of the readers or audience, and the overall stance of the particular media organization he's working for. Then the journalist creates the illusion of "objectivity" by presenting all arguments that are relevant to the angle or perspective he has chosen.
This is deemed by his audience to be a fair approach. Yet a different audience might consider the same story to have missed the point, or to be a distortion, as the angle is wrong to start with. These dichotomies illustrate the relativity of "objectivity" - there is no such thing as independent, calculable objectivity.
Perhaps a better analysis wouldn't consider objectivity as such, but the fairness of reports to all audiences. Fairness presupposes correct diagnosis of the subject, as well as knowledge of larger issues and background insight, and this is where foreign journalists begin to show their failings and limitations.
I read journalists who write with analytical lucidity and empathy about their country or similar countries (or cultures), but then the same journalists travel to different countries or cultures, particularly in Asia, and they churn out garbled stories that draw bizarre conclusions.
The reason is partly due to lack of understanding and partly due to lack of empathy with different peoples. Often these journalists analyze situations in different cultures by how they differ from their country. The result is misinterpretations, and a propensity to miss much of the point in regard to a given story.
Many Westerners are particularly prone to misinterpretations because they are blinkered by the conceit that the Western way, in politics and society and arts, represents the pinnacle of civilization and hence anyone who's different is yet to become enlightened.
In this logic, anyone who deviates from the Western way still has catching up to do. So in China we get the obsession of Western journalists with multi-party democracy and human rights. The hubris in this area is that multi-party democracy has been elevated to something religious, not simply a system of governance subject to evolution, but an end in itself.
Fixing such absolute allegiance to a system of governance or social system ignores history and evolution. For any social system, like nature, is in a constant state of flux. Yet in the West much was made of the theory of "the end of history" after the end of the Cold War, a theory that held that the United States (and Europe) had emerged victorious ideologically and stood at the pinnacle of the pyramidal world order, and that every other country would fall in line.
I have used past tense to refer to that theory, as that's a theory that has since been shown to be incredibly naive by events in the real world, and I use it as an example here to show the West's susceptibility for self-delusion - different societies tend to create their own historical constructs. Likewise, politicians in the West often state that their democratic system is inherently peaceable, bizarrely overlooking the fact that the countries in the West are among the most militaristic.
So many foreign journalists and columnists, caught up in the intellectual concoctions of their society, often look at a different country like China and focus on how it differs from their own, or how far it has advanced, or what it's lacking, in relation to the West. In most cases this is not explicitly stated, but it's implied in the angle of the stories and in the assumptions that lurk within the stories.
This kind of focus overlooks the fact that China is forging its own way in terms of political and social contracts. It's forging its own political construct and democratic context, and hence it calls for evaluation on its own merits, on the effectiveness and triumphs and shortcomings of its evolving social and political system. Another pitfall of journalism is that it tends to become caught up in the alter reality of political drama. News tends to create its own orbit and momentum, leading journalists to lose sight of street realities, or the ordinary people who, in most cases, would be preoccupied with a different set of priorities only loosely related to news and politics.
Foreign journalists in foreign cultures are more prone to this separation from ordinary people, as foreignness creates barriers that take time and social relationships to overcome. In this you cannot blame the journalists, who often find themselves in a foreign country and have to start working without the luxury of a period of assimilation.
This often means that many journalists don't understand well the feelings of ordinary people. For example, many journalists were puzzled that Chinese people took offence at the nature of the reports on the Tibetan riots last March. These journalists couldn't see that the bulk of their coverage was unfair, and an affront to Chinese people who can empathize with their compatriots' sacrifices in going to Tibet out of economic necessity or on government service.
I say the "bulk of the coverage" as not all Western journalists and columnists can be clumped in one sweeping depiction - some do immerse themselves in the history and ethos of China, and assimilate China's point of view.
Any mention of Tibet requires some elaboration as it's a special case. Most Westerners hold a peculiarly romantic notion of anything Tibetan. Westerners view Buddhism as an enlightened alternative to the monotheistic religions, more of a "philosophy of life".
And the Dalai Lama has reached celebrity status by his writings and speeches that pander to Westerners' bourgeois and yuppyish regret of the Western world's "lost innocence". Perhaps this is why the Dalai Lama's political rhetoric is not scrutinized for its true meaning and aims.
Neither is the Dalai Lama cross-examined for the consistency between his words and actions. Only Al Jazeera, for example, reported the Dalai Lama's ban on the worship of a deity called Dorje Shugden, a deity that has been worshipped for 500 years. According to Al Jazeera's report, Shugden's worshippers have been thrown out of jobs, schools, and shops in some areas of India where the Dalai Lama holds sway; and notices bearing "No Shugden followers allowed" have been put up at hospitals and shops.
This posits the question: if the Dalai Lama's accusations of religious oppression in Tibet are worth reporting, isn't the hypocrisy displayed by the stifling of a section of Tibetan Buddhists equally relevant as a news report?
This brings us back to the question of fairness, which I think will grow as China notches up more successes. Even China's harshest critics are beginning to concede that China is demonstrating remarkable leadership qualities. This ranges from the style of leaders, who project their ideas and not their ego (in contrast to the vanity and swagger of many Western leaders), to the manner the government is tackling China's problems with long sight.
In the financial crises, China has emerged as an international stabilizing factor, and people are noticing that fast strides are also being made in dealing with climate change.
By extending the Olympic-era provisions for foreign journalists, the government has shown confidence and leadership. Together with increasing sophistication in putting across China's viewpoints, there seems to be a greater effort of reaching out that's compelling Westerners to look at China with more respect.
It takes time to change attitudes, and there will always be a mixture of good and bad news, unfair and fair reporting, and journalists will continue to be mistaken at least some of the time - the media's fallibility is soberly common.
Yet the important trend, from China's perspective, is that China's fast evolution is gaining plaudits and recognition. And as the effect of the extended regulations for foreign journalists diffuses - the opportunity to mix in a more unfettered manner with a range of people will improve journalists' understanding of China - the likelihood is that foreign journalists will increasingly analyze China on its own terms and merits.
The author is a Maltese writer
(Source: China Daily)
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Hi,
Welcome back James and we really miss your post.
To post 2 :
It is not that some other countries took away those treasures from china as you are saying.. It is because of money minded people of your country.... Your ancestor treasures are being sold by your own country people to other nation.. It is not the other way around..
British can dispaly those treasure if they have because they have bought it.. If you have to say something then you must first point out those people in your country who are selling the treasures..
Anyway..nice post and good to have you back James.. Looking forward to your more post..
Cheers..
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Mr. Renold,
There is NO Chinese local neighborhood organization that spy on the people.
Every Chinese lives their childhood through the fun activities organized by these ?Ju Min Wei Yuan Hui?. It is completely benevolent. You NEVER lived as Chinese in China. You have no clue about China.
Your groundless distortion is insulting to every Chinese.
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Hahaha, I can't stop laughing after I read this entry. I would have agreed with you, if this was written 10 years ago, James, or Reynolds (having so many friends all over the world is making it difficult for me to address a person correctly, cultural difference i guess).
Well, the way you see things seems to remind me of the days in 1990s, but now China has changed so much and I don't think people there are gonna address US or europe as the "west enemy" anymore. Friends is more of a common term, and Cuba's impression to me is that it is a very diligent country, whose economy may also catch up fast. And as the world now is more interconnected with the growth of internet, I doubt that it is described by you as if everyone there sees US as enemy or a bad guy.
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Well perhaps some people here actually realised the irony of Chinese government still calling themselves the Communists, so they just become very sensitive whenever James relates China with Communism. They just want foreigners to stop mentioning that so they don't feel embarassed.
Perhaps the Chinese government realises this irony as well, as can be seen from the recently passed watered-down "land reforms". The state's ownership of the lands in rural China is still claimed, although not effective, just to save the Communist Party some face.
Perhaps the CCP should rename themselves, or simply disband and stop trying to act as if they were a separate entity from the Chinese government. That way they can stop people like James calling them Communists and save the trouble of trying to appear to stick to their roots next time when they roll out some other reforms. Plus they will never have to try to defend an ideology that doesn't quite work in reality anymore.
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#35 - Hizento - if you do NOT welcome James back then what are you doing reading his blog AND posting a comment? And what do you mean by "Reynold offended a billion people with his blogs filled with insenistivities"? The fact that a handful of James's die hard groupies troop out like a squadron of Daleks screaming accusations of biased reporting every time he writes one of his blogs does not equate to a billion offended people.
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Further to my earlier point out facts and your fundamentally flawed post, there are more than five communist party-ruled nations of ther world. Add Nepal, Moldova and Cyprus...
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A much fairer comparison would be between India and China, also Pakistan, Bangladesh and perhaps Sri Lanka which used to be Britain's colonies and start from a similar basis after WW2. Don't forget to put it in the content/background of all the developing and developed countries, such as other BRIC countries, and how about Nigeria, Indonesia, Maxico...?
James has been in the mid-east for a while. So why not have some comparison there too.
We need also to agree to a list of things to be compared to.
Otherwise it would just be mis-leading.
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To Taobo33:
I would say that "pillaging our treasures" is fairly conclusive in alleging whether the artefacts were stolen or bought.
So those Chinese factories in China employing Chinese workers under Chinese law copying British products are nothing to do with China? Your 'logic' is very interesting.
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Oops, found I got "moderated". What did I say? I just told the truth if BBC keeping it superior attitude you will surely get revolsion from chinese people soon.
Don't take chinese people's kindness for granted.
where is my freedom of speech?
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* 63, yellowminshurts
this is the most ignorant post I have seen the whole year.
British waged a drug war and robbed chinese! if you don't know this part of history I suggest you to google "opiun war".
After seeing this if you still think british should be thanked, don't be disappointed when you face a true chinese.
Plus his english is miles better than your chinese.
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From my first hand experience, the Chinese Neighborhood Committee (Ju Min Wei Yuan Hui) is an organization from the people, by the people and for the people. The people working there are retirees who are willing to devote time to serve the community. I thoroughly enjoyed their spring and summer trips to the beach, summer campus to lose weight, repeated trips to the suburb and frequent foreign movie shows. I want this organization to go strong and bigger. The closest Western counter part is the Christian Youth group YMCA or Boy/Girl scout. Of course, the Chinese version is better. We are not forced to worship and/or pray in Neighborhood Committee.
Some Neighborhood Committee also supervise venders in a Da Yuan. For example, there was a farmer who sells normal egg as salted ones. We complained to the Neighborhood Committee. So, when the next time the farmer came, we caught him and got our money back.
This is why the Westerners, who speak no Chinese, who have no understanding of China, who never lived as Chinese in China, who never experienced the superior freedom of China, who are fed with cold war propagandas, could possibly mistaken them as ?spying? on the people.
I find it is unacceptable that Westerners keep bash China with such insulting distortion.
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To #65 Christianity doesn?t quite work for 2000 years causing suppression, bloodshed and suffering. But Westerners still seem to defend it animatedly.
Oh, I see, the Westerners no longer believe in Jesus, they are just trying to protect their big FACEs.
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To #63
Your version of Chinese sold the Chinese antiques in UK museum is completely your manufacture.
We have solid evidence these are trophies grabbed by named British and other European military leaders.
We have true history, while you use imagination.
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To #55,
We Chinese come here not because this is a blog of James, BUT because this is a blog of BBC.
Whatever said here is linked to the Official Line of the UK.
If James opens a private blog on bloggers com, I will never bother to read and be deeply offended.
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To #54. thisisacryforhelp:
1. China has many parties. Obviously you don?t know. This is why your suggestions of China are total rubbish.
2. The West is a ONE PARTY system. The one-party is the Christian rich. Everyone else is pretending and faking it. They are all funded, one way or another, by the one party.
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Quote #49 "It was true that Chinese leader?s words (almost all from Mao) were found everywhere in the 1960?s. However, today, these can only be found on walls in old streets that haven?t been repainted for decades. The Chinese characters you now see in the streets are just things like ?Observe Work Safety Rules?, or ?Let?s Contribute to Our Country?, etc. They are general encouraging slogans but most do not come from the leaders. I prefer these to ?Let?s Drink Coke?."
I see. James is blind in China because he read no Chinese. He idiotically think all red banners are slogans!
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#38 Quote"One funny thing, there appearred to be a lot of state-owned large companies in western countries, like Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae. Can you say nothing like Socialism existing in the so-called Capitalism? I have to say, there is a lot which resembles capitalism in China. I don't care. It's suitable and good for us, so I like it."
Right on point. Most Westerners have no clue about how they are managed or even enslaved by democracy.
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#57, thanks for clearing that up.
A couple of points though.
> Kindly please support the allegation that established powers are trying to keep China weak. If you could cite cases and provide pertinent data, it would really make it a strong argument. Otherwise, some people here might accuse of just making it up. If you must provide links, do so.
>So, Anglo-French axis of nations: Germany, USA, France, Tsarist Russia?, Japan, Italy, Austria. I believe Tsarist Russia has been dead for what? 90 years? How come Italy's included? The only time China and Italy were enemies was in WWII when China declared war on Japan. Germany and Italy were included only because the 3 make up the Axis powers during that time. Are you sure you're not making this up? You could just admit that you were wrong and admit that James was right. Or, what you could do is expound further on why China treats these countries as "enemies". Please support it with facts.
>I'm not saying you're an angry person when you defend China, its just that you sound like an angry person, in general. What you could do is argue in a more reasonable tone, stating your opinions calmly and as much as possible avoid name-calling, etc.
>Good for you! We just wanted to know that you represent one of the many diverging voices of the Chinese people on this forum, and not the voice of the CCP masquerading as an average Chinese.
Peace!
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#59 sonja,
great post, if a bit too long to digest. I happen to agree with majority of what you said, and it's nice to know that there are people like you who could better represent the Chinese point-of-view in these kind of discussions.
Hoping to hear more from you.
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#62 average chinese,
Great article! Nice of you for posting that here. It is correct, by the way. National pride turns into conceit by thinking that your country is the ideal when it comes to gov't, not thinking that different models work with different people.
I do hope that what you posted might help correct some misunderstandings here.
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What is wrong with being proud of one?s nation and political system?
Obviously, it is not just a behavior of communistic nations. May I point out how proud Westerners are about their democracy! Many Westerners even think worshiping an imagined and surppressive God is superior!
Democracy and the Western system is thoroughly inferior to the current Chinese system. It is just the Westerners speak no Chinese; they have no means of knowing. The Westerners never live as Chinese in China, they have no clue.
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#72 topbear1974 wrote:
"* 63, yellowminshurts
this is the most ignorant post I have seen the whole year.
British waged a drug war and robbed chinese! if you don't know this part of history I suggest you to google "opiun war".
After seeing this if you still think british should be thanked, don't be disappointed when you face a true chinese.
Plus his english is miles better than your chinese."
>topbear, I don't think this will pass as an example for reasonable debate. what were you thinking? I hope you read yellowmins post, because I'll give it to once again:
"Hi,
Welcome back James and we really miss your post.
To post 2 :
It is not that some other countries took away those treasures from china as you are saying.. It is because of money minded people of your country.... Your ancestor treasures are being sold by your own country people to other nation.. It is not the other way around..
British can dispaly those treasure if they have because they have bought it.. If you have to say something then you must first point out those people in your country who are selling the treasures..
Anyway..nice post and good to have you back James.. Looking forward to your more post..
Cheers."
>The truth is that it was a mixture of both. The British Empire(not the UK) did loot some of the Chinese treasures during the chaos following the Opium wars, but some of the treasures on display at the British Museum were sold to the British by your own countrymen. Now regarding the return of these treasure, there is some discussion whether the UK could repatriate these treasures back to their country of origin. There is an article here on the BBC, try looking it up.
> And he didn't say the British should be thank, although the people at the museum have done a wonderful job in maintaining there national treasures in question.
> You really have to insult the man, do you? I myself don't speak a word of Chinese, aside from some phrases in Mandarin. Does that mean that my arguments are false and not worth reading?
You need to work on your temper,
Peace
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to # 63:
No offense. By your logic, smuggling, drug and slave trafficking are parts of the trade too. The goods are sold by some people to other people. Only if some people are entitled to do so. Indeed, every thing can be justified, to some people?s benefit. But unfortunately, some of us have the sense of right or wrong from birth, from God or from deep inside.
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timbatu,
The only lucid statement from you that I can appreciate is the first 2 paragraphs from post #73. You then proceed to go an automatic fire about ignorant westerners bashing china, Christianity, democracy as slavery, and allegations that the US consists of only party, the Christian rich. All these peppered with an unhealthy opinion of "Westerners" in general.
As reply to you post in #76, even if this is a blog of the BBC(legally speaking, it is), you are still not obligated to read James' posts on this blog. you are free to read, to comment, and complain about bias. My point is that you should not expect unbiased objectivity from James, as this is not a news article, but a web log(blog). He is admittedly a western journalist sharing his observations and opinions of China as a whole to BBC readers.
If you are in any way offended by what James writes, or if you simply wish to correct him on some points he may have gotten wrong, you are actually allowed to explain your side of the argument in a reasonable manner, so as to persuade, not to antagonize, the people who want to hear your side. Or you could simply leave, and not read this blog. I'm sure it will work wonders on your blood pressure.
Common sense, as my mother always says.
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Now to continue, timbatu.
I think you are as ignorant about westerners as they are as ignorant about China.
Now, if you want to prove me wrong, you could simply substantiate your allegations and statement with incontrovertible evidence, so to speak. To put it simply, convince me that what you are saying is true. Or are you one of those people who try to pass off their own opinions as reality and simply dismiss those who hold divergent opinions as ignorant westerners, china-bashers, or not worth your attention?
"Anyone can say unicorns exist, but find me someone who can prove their existence."
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My response to senlin's nonsense continues:
mate, If you have the idea what you are talking about and have evidence and know exactly which factory is 'copying', with all respect you can hire a lawer and sue them and get a great deal of payment and you are protected by the law both from UK and PRC. Ask James about this if you still won't give exact evidence or just wana keep talking and blame ordinary Chinese people or simply flameing at China.
The money is in your pocket and the law is on your side. This is my last response to your comment. Even I am on your side towards those dishonest deal.
BTW there isn't such a Chinese law to make factory in China and copy British goods. Even James will find it funny that you thihnk there is a such law.
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I disagree with the author when he mentions "these countries are the remains of the movement that once threatened to dominate the world"--
Communism like other system of governance is an ideology, and I don't think we can define failure or success. Ideology lasts forever, no matter how the system works. And also it was not ideals of communism that failed, its the poor visions of the leaders, unable to change as per the changing scenario. Communism has to be defined according to time again. The time has come. Absolutism does not work, regardless of anything. No matter how westerners define their system, they seem to follow many ideals of communism. Communism seems to be fearful only because the situation is so different compared to the situation when its founders defined it.
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#65
How does Christianity not work?
So far you've been shouting your empty 'facts' without giving examples. When did you last see Christianity causing bloodshed, suppression and suffering? Give me an example. I have seen lots of Communist states falling apart - USSR, East Germany etc etc and people suffering in Communist states that are yet to fall. Think about North Korea.
Do you really believe Communism works? I don't even think your beloved government really believes in Communism themselves.
I was in this museum in Berlin few weeks ago and I saw lots of evidence and historical facts there of people who used to live in Communist East Germany trying to escape to West Berlin (and shot down by the Communist border guards). Why wasn't there any West Berliners trying to escape into East Berlin ???
Oh well perhaps you are gonna go on about how brainwashed these people who runs the museum are and the political agenda behind.
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# 83
According to your logic (if there's any), you wouldn't have any clue what democracy is either since you've never lived as a "Westerner" in the "West". Then on what grounds can you say democracy is inferior to the current Chinese system ? ? ?
Well I speak and read Chinese and understand every empty word some of the Chinese officials say about their policies and what's happening in China, but I don't feel the current Chinese system is any superior to democracy. Should I say I'm brainwashed as well ? ? ? That seems to be the only possible explanation to you doesn't it ?
I don't see any point in comparing your "best" political system and the worshipping of the "imagined, suppressive God". What I know is that, nobody is made into worshipping God in democracies but apparently you people are made into believing your leader under your political system.
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#90
Have you seriously not heard the "God told me to do this and that" statements by forgone presidents?
Communism is an ideology for the common good, the balance of society. But we are all greedy and require freedom to be content.
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To Taobo33:
"If you have the idea what you are talking about "
Last time I was in China I saw plenty of counterfeit British products on display made under Chinese names produced in China.
"and have evidence and know exactly which factory is 'copying', with all respect you can hire a lawer and sue them"
If I had held the patent for these items and had the funds to pursue it then I would certainly take this course of action.
"just wana keep talking and blame ordinary Chinese people or simply flameing at China."
These are your words. I have said nothing about the ordinary Chinese people. I have stated my case that Chinese factories copy British goods then sell them in Chinese shops without paying any duties to the British producers - which is theft.
"BTW there isn't such a Chinese law to make factory in China and copy British goods."
I do not understand what you are saying here. I think you are saying that the British manufacturers have the means to take legal action against the counterfeiters in China. How is that relevant to my 'nonsense'? Does this change the fact that this continues to happen every day? Please think before you write next time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Quote ?How does Christianity not work? When did you last see Christianity causing bloodshed, suppression and suffering??
To #65 heyone,
Right now, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Have you heard of the Muslim concentration camp in Guantanamo?
Christianity must stop indoctrinate hatred and racism to its children.
Christians have 2000 years of bloody history of religious and political wars.
The perfect Christians or the perfect Christianity have never existed.
The ideal Christianity is as illusive as the ideal communism which is
non-exists.
"Where are thee who do not want me to be the king? Bring them all hence, slay each in front of me" --- Jesus Christ, Luke 19:27
You can question anything in science. If your arguments are logical, science embraces you. But questioning the scripture is forbiden by religion.
Science uses education. Religion uses indoctrination.
Science is a repeated self-correction process. Religion is an absolute derivation from one scripture.
The process of science ensures advancement. The process of religion retains ignorance and prejudice for centuries.
It is NOT a problem of China. China has no worse Human Rights than the
Christian West. The problem is Christian bigotry and racism. The
situation resemble evolution. It is not a problem of evolution. It is
the problem of Christianity who unscientifically and ignorantly
dismiss it.
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Quote heyone #91 ?nobody is made into worshipping God in democracies but apparently you people are made into believing your leader under your political system.?
Do you ever live in the West?
Are you kidding me?
I went to the graduation ceremony of a PUBLIC college, namely SUNY . Only a Catholic priest was assigned to publicly pray to Ghod over a Christian Bible. This was a ceremony paid by public tax in a public school. There were Indians, atheists, Buddhists sitting there. There is neither tolerance nor accommodation for different religions. The US majority favors Christianity and forces this religion onto everyone. There is no separation of church and state. There is only "One Nation under Ghod".
I agree the Christian prayer is a tradition. But it is an European tradition. Don't you feel it is very important to keep your tradition in America? Then follow the golden rule, we Chinese want our traditions to be treated equally. Why is it this hard for you to accept equality? You must be a Nazi. You cannot have any good meaning toward China, otherwise, you cannot force your tradition down our throats.
Don't you think a government is NOT supposed to tell its citizens how to live? Then, why do we have to live under "Ghod". There is only one party in the US -- a Christian rich party. There is no freedom of speech in the US. Christians using white cops forcing their ideology down everyone's throat. There is neither tolerance nor accommodation for diversity. There is only "One Nation under Ghod".
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Which way wins? Cuba, China, etc. the world's populous live under national rule and capitalism seeps through every nation. I read what you said about good nation bad nation. It is a common saying in every nation: Their way is good, other nations are bad and in someway a enemy.
My feelings are that every nation is the worlds enemy, abusing the minds and lifetimes of their people. The worlds people would certainly be better off without the worlds separatism of a military and their politics.
The worlds people live under a police state telling them what to think, what to do and what not to do. A Nation's government should know better. They can't think for everyone especially when they lie to one another and abuse their own power structure.
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To fibblesan in post 13.
"You should be thankful we helped keep Chinese history alive"
The British invaders did well to keep Chinese history alive by burning down Yuan Ming Yuan. The burned down palace is still there in BeiJing as the evidence of how the British looted and destroyed a master piece of Chinese civilisation.
Now the British are auctioning the artifacts they looted from the Yuan Ming Yuan and you want the Chinese to say thank you for the looting and the burning down of the palace?
Thank you for providing an example of western media brainwashed.
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So many China bashers denies the simple facts of Opium war, the looting and burning down of Chinese artefacts by the western powers. To me they are either a very misinformed group or simply use their brand of distorted history to serve their anti-China or anti-Chinese view.
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To topbear1974 :
British may have start the opium war with China but it is too foolish of Chinese to dance according to the same.
May be what you have post here is there in the books that you have studied in your Primary School.
"After seeing this if you still think british should be thanked, don't be disappointed when you face a true chinese." This is most stupid line I have seen in the Whole year.I don't have to face any chinese for I can read whole about Chinese from CCP to the Sweeper in china like they way of thinking,how they behave,what notion they have with west and the alike.
Moreover ,your post also shed light on how your inner values are.
HATS OFF TO YOU..BUDDY..
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"Don't you think a government is NOT supposed to tell its citizens how to live? Then, why do we have to live under "Ghod". There is only one party in the US -- a Christian rich party. There is no freedom of speech in the US. Christians using white cops forcing their ideology down everyone's throat. There is neither tolerance nor accommodation for diversity. There is only "One Nation under Ghod"."
Does a Christian-rich society forbids you from saying things freely? I don't think so, I don't know how SUNY managed to train their graduates to make this kind of logical association. I don't think making you sit through a ceremony in which some Priest leads a prayer constitutes to suppression of your freedom of speech. It's not like you'd get arrested or burnt if you spoke against Christianity in the US.
I'm very curious how you managed to compare Communism and Christianity and end up with the conclusion of democracy being inferior to the Chinese system. Even if Christianity were flawed, it wouldn't mean democracy doesn't work. Democraccy doens't make you stone non-Christians to death. But Mao, the ultimate Chinese Communist, would eliminate any Capitalist in China.
"Right now, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Have you heard of the Muslim concentration camp in Guantanamo?"
So locking up terrorists is bad, just that country does that has a Catholic/Christian leader makes the religions evil.
"Christians have 2000 years of bloody history of religious and political wars."
When was the last one ? like 500 years ago or something ? I see hard-core Communist countries falling apart. But I don't see Christianity dying ?
Back to my original point: Communism is an ideology that doesn't work that not even CCP believes in it. Otherwise you wouldnt get a person like Deng Xiaoping hailed as a national hero. They can't blame Mao either since he's the founding father no matter how many people starved to death as a result of his policies.
The CCP is so skeptic about religions since without democracy they themselves cannot find ways to legitimise their ruling power. They are just afraid of people believing in things other than CCP. Suppression is the only way to bring 'stability' (in their sense anyway).
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#95-96, timbatu
Again, you rant on and on and on.
Basically, it's the same thing: China good, West bad, Christianity evil.
Again, you pass off your opinions as fact without supporting them with any evidence whatsoever.
As to your willful misuse of the bible, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Luke 19:11-27 covers the parable of the pounds. I suggest that you read the whole parable and UNDERSTAND it before you imply that Jesus was seriously ordering his followers to kill all non-christian unbelievers.
And you have the right to be offended by Western ignorance?
Now, I will only say this once, THERE IS A SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IN AMERICA. The state cannot force any religion at all to its constituents. You have the internet. Look up The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. It is part of the U.S. Constitution, which state that:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
As to your using the Pledge of Allegiance to support your, again, you have no idea whatsoever about the issues surrounding the phrase "under God" on the Pledge, but still you use it. The Pledge has undergone many changes since it was first made in 1892, including the phrase "under God" on its 4th revision, when President Dwight Eisenhower signed the bill allowing the contested words to be added into the Pledge of Allegiance.
His explanation?
"These words [?under God?] will remind Americans that despite our great physical strength we must remain humble. They will help us to keep constantly in our minds and hearts the spiritual and moral principles which alone give dignity to man, and upon which our way of life is founded."
I suggest that you get your facts straight next time.
Liberty and Justice for all.
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#99 funny,
You're right. Some people never really understood the effects and causes of the Opium war. During the19th century, there was a high demand for Chinese porcelain, tea, and silk, but very low demand for British products.
The plan was to smuggle Opium into China, make millions of Chinese drug addicts, and make a huge profit. Everyone was in on it. The British East India Company, British officials, merchants, soldiers, etc. The British Empire sanctioned this practice by not putting a stop to it, and the practice was so widespread that even Queen Victoria would have to be very, very ignorant and very poor ruler to try to deny this.
The Qing dynasty tried to stop the export of Opium into China, most notable was the actions of Lin Zexu to confiscate and destroy Opium seized Chinese ports. The British empire cried against the destruction of British property, sent in the troops, forced the Qing dynasty to surrender and sign the first of the Unequal treaties. It was during the 2nd Opium war that they burned down the Old Summer Palace and Summer Palace, after looting it.
Even if all this happened 150 years ago, Westerners should understand why there is some animosity up to now among the Chinese for most Westerners. Although I don't know if this justifies the continued production of pirated/fake goods in Modern China.
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Thank you James. Sorry I couldn't visit Cuba with you, but it's illegal for Americans to visit there. The official reason is that our government doesn't want to permit the Cubans to benefit from foreign trade, including tourists, to help destablize the Cuban government. I can't resist thinking it's also to prevent Americans from becoming knowing a Communist country, and maybe thinking "this is not so bad."
Why would you suppose that the US would want to destabilize the Cuban government? Could it be that if a Socialist society become very successful, it might serve as an example to others? I doubt the Corporatist American State would fear it so much if it weren't in fact a legitimate, attractive alternative to Capitalism. And of course it would favor labor over the corporate class, and THAT is the real problem.
We should not forget that poverty in Cuba today, though it still exists, is much reduced from Batista's day, and far from there being a clinic on every corner, for the poorest 95%, there were none at all under Batista. Those are important points. And contrasting the poorest aspects of Cuban society with China's richest is not very helpful.
Who really thinks Cuba "bet on Socialism 'to stay in power?'" Could it be that it bet on Socialism - because Socialism was best for its People? Not every person, or statesman, thinks that greed and power are the only legitimate motives. Might Castro have stayed with Socialism so that 80% of his nation's population won't be deprived of adequite food, shelter, medical care and education, as was the case under Batista, i.e. under Capitalism?
Socialist governments don't necessarily fail because of inherent inferiority. And they don't usually fail because their People reject them. They fail because of hostile, irresistable pressure from the American Corporate State, which, fearing any sucessful alternative to Capitalism, especially Leftist, attacks them in every way "necessary," to guarantee failure.
There are very good reasons Socialism has sprung up so often around the world, and not because anyone "hates freedom!" It's because Socialism puts People first, ahead of wealth accumulation by the few. It's because Socialism is social. Because Capitalism is anti-social.
Just a note to those who doubt America sabotages leftist governments. Who hasn't heard about Iran-Contra, Granada, Chile, Columbia, San Salvador, etc.? Those are just the tip of a huge military-corporate iceberg. The US has a standing military of over 500,000 men, of which only about 200,000 are in Iraq and Afganistan. What do you suppose the rest are for? With 10X the military power of any other nation on Earth, who really believes that our security is at risk? This military force does have a role, in fact, threatening, disrupting and destabilizing non-Capitalist governments and economies everywhere.
This article very quietly puts down Castro's success in Cuba, while boosting China's move toward Capitalism. It's argument is misleading, and its conclusions are spurious.
We can only hope that our current one-party government sees the light regarding who this government serves, the vast majority of its citizens, or the richest 1/2 of 1 percent? Does that conflict with Capitalism? Yes indeed. That's the whole point.
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Timbatu - # 95 was OK
Timbatu - # 96 was a right load of rubbish !!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
An interesting post comparing the two countries - I've lived in China, but never been to Cuba but would love to go.
There are a couple of things I don't agree with though - I don' t think that saying that quotes from the leaders are everywhere in China ('like seeing the ten commandments or the sayings of Churchill stuck all over Oxford Street') is accurate, it's certainly not how I remember it. There are slogans and quotes in some places, but the way you describe it seems to give the wrong impression. I often get asked what it was like to live in a communist country, because a lot of people have the impression that everything in China is very tightly controlled, you can't discuss anything political with anyone, everyone is brainwashed, there are tight restrictions on travel etc for foreigners. I think this image is one perpetuated by the media and it is frustrating because it does not reflect reality. I understand that journalists in China are subject to restrictions on their work and this is often discussed in the media. However, it is slightly misleading in the sense that it implies that every foreigner in China would be treated that way and implies that all other activities are monitored and controlled in the same way, which is not the case. Many people have an image of China in their minds which has more in common with the China of the 1970s than the China of today. When I was a student in China, I travelled extensively, spoke to a wide range of different people about all sorts of different things with no problems whatsoever.
I also think it is important to remember that, although some areas of China are prosperous, there is also a large proportion of the population who still live in poverty. Personally, I hope to see the Chinese government return to its socialist roots and ensure that as many people as possible benefit from the wealth that is being created.
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Christians in China have full religious freedom.
This does not mean they can violet the law because they believe they are always right.
If they build illegal buildings on other people's properties, these will be removed.
Biased Christian media repeatedly misreport such incidences as suppression.
Shame!
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flibblesan wrote:
"Regarding the Chinese artifacts in the British Museum. They are on display in the British museum in respect of China and to allow everybody to enjoy them. Britain taking these prevented them being destroyed during the cultural revolution. You should be thankful that we helped keep Chinese history alive."
Oh, my GOD, should I thank your British troops for killing our ancestors and taking (and preserving) those artifacts? Perhaps I should welcome your troops to invade China again for killing me and taking our treasures again and keeping them for the next 100 years. So your grandsons will be able to shout: I am proud that my grandpa helped to keep the Chinese history alive!
Now I understand you very well.
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My posts #106, #107, #108, #110 are all banned.
I see, this is how *free* the West is!!!
I find believing in Ghod simply does NOT make people humble.
This view is a religious nonsense.
I supply plenty of evidences in response to heyone. Anyone who is interested can send me a message. I will send you the posts. They violet no rule.
Christians fear truth. BBC?s Christian bias is disgusting.
This is another prove why China is more free than the Christian West.
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#105. WaveyDavey007 was a right load of rubbish !!
(Boy, this *insulting* post is so hard to ban because it has the SAME wording as his post!)
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timbatu,
It's "God", not "Ghod". When will you learn?
And your right, simply believing in God, or believing that there is a god, does not make one humble. Read the Bible, Q'uran, any religious book at all, it will not make you any bit humble.
Any teaching or religious book is worthless if you don't put it into practice. That will make you humble, no doubt about that.
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MidnightJunkie,
Practicing a religion NEVER makes people humble. Look at the carpet-bombings of Iraq. Do you know the Western troops pray to Jesus everyday?!?!
Believing Ghod, and a vicious fairy tale does not help anything.
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I said something about how British people invaded our country and destroyed our cities and civilization, burnt our palaces, robbed our gold and treasures (including antiques), colonized and continued to rob our resources, and they now said we should thank them for doing that.
And BBC deleted my comment and says that I broke the house rules.
How biasd it is.
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Dear Mr. Reynolds:
I am a Cuban American born in Ohio who lives in Florida and has visited the People's Republic of China.
Not everyone who fled Cuba to Florida were followers of Batista. There were other professionals who could not live under a Communist Government.
There were even poor people [the people who would have benefitted from Castro] who saw the writing on the wall and left for the USA and Europe.
Cuba was also Communist since the US Governing Elite collaborated with Russia.
Russia wanted a colony in the Americas. Castro wanted power and the USA wanted cheap professional labour since the US Governing Elite thrives on imported labour. Cuba was not a true revolution but a reaction by Russians, Americans, and their puppets against a success story.
The People's Republic of China was a true revolution. It has survived since it does not have the vices that are inherent in the West.
The People's Republic of China has survived because they evolved. The People's Republic of China has taken Socialism and Communism to a new level of peace and prosperity that the West cannot recognize.
Why do you not leave the People's Republic of China alone? Every society has the right to construct itself without outside interference.
Why do you not talk about the Violation of Human Rights in Communist States such as Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Belarus, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador?
What about the USA under the Republicans and Democrats with their repression of Libertarians and Greens?
You have a right to express your opinion of the People's Republic of China as well as I have a right to express my support and love for the People's Republic of China. I have supported the People's Republic of China since I was in my early childhood.
Long Live the People's Republic of China.
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James:
The USA is also Communist since the Republicans and Democrats have adopted many of the methods used in the former USSR.
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Yes, the two countries are the same from the start 50 years ago, just like the UK and the USA are same over 150 years ago.
Back than the Cubans and the Chinese were made and keept poor by the West, comparing the UK and the US both were built on the backs of slaves.
Like horses and zebras, all the same.
There are so many paid western commentators here, they must be from that radio free org.?
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Being retired and a widower I?ve had plenty of time to join a number of debates held by other publications. What doesn?t cease to amaze me, is the ill feeling ? and worse manners ? of debaters of both sides when China is involved, which contrasts with debates, sometimes vigorously defended, on other subjects. It brings me back to the times just before WWII when my grand father, upon reading a couple of days late German, French and British newspaper headlines or listening to crackling radio comments (neither TV nor emails in those days), prophesied that a serious catastrophe would come out of it. He didn?t live to see his prophecy come true, but I did.
China, like any other country, has many good things and a lot that are not. China supporters, and mainly Chinese nationals, tend to be over sensitive over criticisms made to the country. However, many critics ? with the full right to criticise what they think is wrong ? are often offensive or patronising (difficult to know which is worse) to those over sensitive defenders of China.
In a very unpleasant debate over whether it had been the right decision to hold this year?s Olympic Games in Beijing, a group of debaters managed to tone down the unpleasantness without losing the vigour of the debate. It would be good if this debate could loose some of its unpleasantness. I?ve noticed that the BBC moderators have wisely stopped a few comments from being published; it would be even better if the debaters had refrained from posting them in the first place.
Debaters, on both sides, should realize that vigour in debate is welcome, bad manners are not and make whatever good points are put forward loose their impact. Bad manners, insulting behaviour and improper comments always make losers of their proponents.
Just to finish this awfully long comment, I shall try to condensate a little episode in my professional life. Not long after Chairman Mao died, a Mainland Chinese lady engineer was working with our company to provide engineering supplies to African countries receiving Chinese aid. We had a pleasant human relationship with her despite our more than obvious dissent in politics. One day she brought to a meeting a couple of Embassy?s officials. A colleague and I decided to be bold and entered the conference room holding in our hands a small green book (very similar in size to Mao?s thoughts red book) published by a steel parts supplier to list standard steel beams and similar. As we went in we both chanted, ?Long live Chairman (steel suppliers name)? as if we were in a mock Cultural Revolution march.
The result was what any expert in human relations could predict: the lady and the Embassy officials after a split second of hesitation burst out in laughter when they realised no offence was meant just good wholesome fun.
Despite different habits, upbringing and other cultural marks, human beings are very much alike. They will always respond positively to well meaning incentives, badly to mean ones.
James Roberts criticisms have generally a taste of well meaning, ?Please, improve this matter?. I wish Chinese and China supporters would not be over sensitive to them. I wish China bashers would stop being so: China has many good things and we all could learn from them.
And let?s adapt a motto from the hippy sixties: ?let?s laugh, not fight?.
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I enjoyed this article. I did my thesis on American views of China, but because I am American it is illegal for me to visit Cuba. The two main theories I came across were containment and engagement theory. Containment treats China like Cuba, yet we can't even visit the country. Then engagement assumes that in order for China to continue to grow in the global economy and global society, democracy is inevitable. Hmm, I think these next few years will be very interesting. And James, do you happen to have any follow-up on Hu Jintao's win-win diplomacy - specifically Africa? I am really curious if he followed through with clearing the debt in Africa. Thank you again for this well written article.
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Can anyone please explain ANY justification in the embargo that the U.S. continues to lead against Cuba.What THREAT does tiny Cuba pose towards the U.S.? Is America so insecure? Surely the example of "drawing in " China to the "capitalist" world shows how to influence people and hopefully make "friends" of potential "enemies".
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After reading this lengthy but utterly superficial article, here comes the summary for it:
1) James hates communism
2) James loves capitalism
3) China is on longer a socialism country
4) Cuba is still a socialism country
But, so what?
Clearly, James is either a -ism lover or ideology manic, but that can only makes you become a fundamentalist or extremist.
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Xlbfan,
Learn to listen. You are told you have choice A or B. But you are lied to. You have no power, no choice. You have nothing.
Both A and B are the same persons, they are in control. You are not.
Compared to the suffering of the third world democracies, from African wars to India and Central America, I say China?s system is the lesser evil.
Democracy is the worst of the worst. A lying system promoting corruption and fights.
I don?t know what you are talking about with regard about ?face?. If you are trying to save ?face? by insisting democracy is good, that is fine.
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Timbatu,
I think your reply should only appear on one thread, not on several of them.
No choice is better than limited choice? Please.
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To #122 Sanmartinian,
I simply disagree. I think it is deeply insulting for think Mao as bigger than he is in China. The CCP party line says Mao is 50 per cents wrong.
James posts are filled with prejudice and hostility. Are you blind to the obvious Chinese reactions?!?! You cannot detect it, simply, because you share the view.
You both speak NO Chinese. You both grow up anti-China. You both grow up believing in Ghod.
If you think people should not post their views here, if you support banning dissenting posts her, I say you have no moral to teach China on speech freedom.
Cheers to you, may you have peace and love from your religion.
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To #127, you still do not get my point.
My point is: you have NO choice. You DO NOT have a collection of limited choices. You have NONE. You have no power.
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Xlbfan,
Hey, you were told to listen to by timbatu. Apparently, he knows more about democracy than anyone of us does.
So applying his concept to american democracy, he says that Barrack Obama and John McCain are both one and the same person. Apparently the U.S. elections is a farce, and that beforehand, Obama and McCain have already agreed to a joint leadership, whoever wins.
Well, I'll be. Imagine spending 1 billion USD for a deception on a grand scale. Why these two bothered spending that much money on a fake election is beyond me. No wonder timbatu believes that democracy is the worst of the worst.
What do you think, Xlbfan. Am I correct? I've tried to listen the best I can to timbatu, apparently he believe that the scenario I described above is true.
Please save me from ignorance
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Hi Midnightjunkie,
I hope we're not all beyond saving yet, even those who choose to have no choice. I have read arguments against democracy like that before, some from the 1930s.
While Timbatu does actually have a point about the political elite, his claim that no choice is better is farcical. I don't trust any politician, they all get corrupt after a while in power. Replacing a leader with someone with the same policies still works better. As UK socialist once said in response to what questions to ask someone in power: "how do I get rid of you?"
I lived in China and when it came to politics I spent a long time listening to people about their daily lives, etc. Lack of democracy has other effects I was not aware of. I was surprised that some people successful in business wanted to emigrate as they believed that one day some official would look in their bank account and come calling demanding "taxes".
The "superior freedom" he talks of must also include advice I received such as "don't talk politics in public places, such as on the train". To counteract the accusation I know is about to come from Timbatu, I wasn't in the middle of lecturing anyone when told this.
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Politicians in democracies are not accountable by any means. Is this not clear? Democratic governments have no accountability. Politicians simply lie. Nothing and no one ever change in the profoundly racist West.
As for Sichuan earthquake: if this happens in the US or UK, the majority will suffer more. The reaction of Chinese government is deeply popular among the Chinese people. Let me know if this is not clear to you.
It is true that most Chinese do not follow the Western way to sue.
Hey, if you have no money, how can you sue in the West?
Are there any New Orleans Africans sued the state? They are shot at, you know!
As for the milk scandal, it is seen by Chinese as a problem of capitalism and individual greed. China is run by the people ? Unlike Western democracies, which are run by a few elites.
China dose have superior freedom indeed.
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Except for technical points, I seldom reply to comments to my posts.
I make an exception to #128 timbatu for the simple reason that he fully exemplifies my argument that on debates about China ill feeling substitutes reasoned points.
I must confess not to have fully understood what timbatu is trying to say about the deep insult: was it to Mao? Was it to China? Anyone else?
Perhaps more important: what was the insult?
As for freedom of expression, it has limits like any other freedom: anyone can state their ideas, points of view or even accuse others of wrongdoing. In my country we even have Maoist political parties and they have elected some local officials and nobody would dream of trying to shut them up. But obviously they or I can be brought to court if we use insulting behaviour or falsely accuse our opponents.
I do not blame China for not being a democracy yet. Democracy only works at a certain stage of development (not material, mostly educational) that takes time to reach. China will get there probably sooner than many of us consider possible. Just to mention a few examples, Germany only got there in the late forties, Spain, Portugal, Greece later and Eastern European and many South American countries only recently.
It is a sad reflection that I have heard your type of argument inveighing against democracy in all those countries while they were still dictatorships. The difference was that ? with the exception of Germany before WWII ? the ill feeling was absent.
This is why I feel so concerned about the outcome of the China debates: their ill feelings are so similar to German reactions in the late thirties. We all know what followed.
Incidentally, I have never been anti China, on the contrary as can be easily understood from my first post, and I never believed in Ghod. Most of the time I believe in God, but even so, I occasionally have doubts. Particularly when I see hatred instead of healthy differences of opinion and even interests.
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As Timbatu says: "Nothing and no one ever change in the profoundly racist West."
Along with: "China dose have superior freedom indeed." Including spelling mistake, this has been copied and pasted on numerous occasions, subtracting even more credibilty from already errant and narrow-minded comments .
China is run by the people? I thought it was run by unelected officials of the CCP. Who are they if not an elite. Some of those looking for more answers after the earthquake have been silenced, with I believe one photographer posting photos online taken to a Laogai, "reform through labour" institution.
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Xlbfan (post 135) brought back a hidden memory relevant to this subject. In the mid XXth century, a rather mild dictatorship used to reply to unfavourable comments in the international press with letters written by the public servants of its ?Information? bureau.
To save thinking time, the letters were similar if not exactly the same. In those pre-computer, pre TV times ?copy and paste? was a totally unknown technique and even Xerox copiers did not exist. So the poor typists had to type the same text over and over again to reply to all criticisms from abroad.
So, this is the stage China is in at present.
At least, the reply letter writers of that Western World dictatorship had the grace to be very polite and even handed to their critics. This probably explains why it was never severely castigated in the foreign media and lasted longer than expected.
As a citizen of ancient Rome would say ?there is nothing new under the Sun?.
Xlbfan did us all a great service by reminding us of a forgotten technique being rehashed with modern technology.
Well, as China has made great material strides it will no doubt progress culturally and politically even faster than the Western dictatorship I mentioned above.
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Sanmartinian,
Your people are carpet-bombing innocent civilians, right now. Women and children are bloodily killed, right now. What can go worse than that? Have you heard of the Muslim concentration camp in Guantanamo? Hitler killed less people than the US and UK in 2004-2008.
Here the insult is:
You think Mao is God to the Chinese, while he really is not. You are told that Chinese worship Mao. You are told lies. You are ignorant. This and others misunderstandings are insults.
If you keep insulting us with your egotistic views, such as human rights and democracy nonsense, yes, and the majority Chinese will deeply resent the West. The trend is already very clear during the Olympics. The first reactions are from Chinese living in the West. I know, you probably don't know, because your media blacked out. The problem is the evil, arrogance and greediness of the West
.
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I lived in Cuba, once upon a time, and i certainly prefer to have good and free health services and education than the chance/possibility (which are in reality do not exist) to make all the money in the.
Communism in china is a lie, just as much as democracy and the freedoms it promises is a lie. I hope for a Cuba that will learn from China..."a better world is possible"-Fidel Castro.
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To the moderators, as usual
This is my second and hopefully the last response to timbatu (nº 137):
a) My people are certainly not carpet-bombing anyone. The country, of which I am a national, is always classed as one of the most peaceful by any agency that carries out that type of research. Nor do we have any Muslim concentration camps; in fact the main Mosque we have built received its largest contribution from the largest Christian Church here.
b) Neither I, nor any of the other posters that I can remember have ever written or suggested that the Chinese consider Mao as God. It is your imagination that leads you to such belief. Please control it.
c) Even if anyone (he or she would have to be quite ignorant) thought the Chinese people worship Mao as their God, I fail to see where the insult is. Many civilisations, the Roman Empire above all, deified some of their living leaders and nobody thinks it is an insult to mention the fact although twenty centuries later it all looks a bit odd.
d) Calling me a liar is an insult in any civilisation (Do not worry. I decide who has the ability to insult me and you are not in the list). A misunderstanding is never an insult. Again in any civilisation.
e) I am very happy to contact frequently Chinese nationals who live in my country. Some were rightly proud of China?s Olympic organization and achievements (although many could not have cared less and others dismissed it as a show-off). Not one of them ever commented unfavourably against what you call the human rights and democracy nonsense that they fully enjoy in my country. Perhaps it is not the trend you imagine. Or, else, they were terrified that I would carpet bomb the shops where I buy my fishing tackle or the restaurants where I sometimes eat.
Please moderate your comments and, preferably, thoughts. Moderation, realism and good manners are much more a proof of development than high rises or well-designed stadiums. The admiration from foreigners that obviously the Chinese crave cannot be obtained by having huge armed forces, trips to outer space, many gold medals or even advanced technologies. Respect from others always comes from our behaviour. Ask Luxembourgers, Swiss, Danes or Finns. Or even Icelanders despite their recent difficulties. Or many others that would be a bore to list.
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New member, thanks James for this article, I found it interesting and I believe, as discussed in the article on Guns n' Roses "Chinese Democracy" that we people in the west do not know enough about China and the other communist countries, and it is great to read a well-phrased personal opinion of a European living in China, as well as the discussions from members under each conversation, showing a variety of opinions, all argued carefully
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