High-profile departure
I'm not sure if you get severance pay if you lose your job in the Chinese Communist Party. But Meng Xuenong probably knows.
He was fired as mayor of Beijing in 2003 for covering up the outbreak of the respiratory disease, SARS. His was one of the most high-profile sackings in China in recent years.
But in China, if you're sacked it doesn't always mean that you're done. Rehabilitation can come pretty quickly. A few months after he was fired, Meng Xuenong was quietly given a new low-profile job (in charge of a water project.) Then, in 2007 he was chosen to be the governor of the Shanxi Province - China's biggest coal-producing region.
But now, he's run into trouble again. Earlier this month in Shanxi, heavy rains broke down the retaining wall of an unlicensed mine. Tonnes of iron ore waste poured down a hillside onto a nearby marketplace. More than 250 people were killed (many of the dead are unidentified migrant workers).
The landslide has angered many people here. Every year around 5,000 people in China die in mining accidents - many are killed working in dangerous, unlicensed mines. The Communist Party says that it's tried to close down as many illegal mines as possible, but, in many areas, these mines continue to operate.
The men who ran the illegal mine which caused the landslide in Shanxi have now been detained. A state investigator has criticised the local government for poor supervision of work safety. And Meng Xuenong has had to resign as governor of Shanxi - the second time he's lost a high-profile job. Will he get to come back again?
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James:
Poor Meng Xuenong!!!
He seems to have very poor luck...
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James:
to answer your final question on Meng Xuenong: maybe or not...my personal guess is probably not....
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Sacking a local official when a human caused disaster or unrest strikes a region is one of the conventional communist party tactics to 'stabilize' public outcry in China. It happened in Shanghai, Anhui, Beijing, Zhejiang, Tibet, Sichuan, you name it, but that tactic will never be applied to top leadership such as Hu Jintao or Wenjiabao, why? It is because Chinese problem is not, first and foremost, about individual officials abusing their positions, but rather a problem of the system created by the 'ALMIGHTY' party (the communist party). The party needs to play its own game of sacking one while replaces with another, often equals as the previous, if not worse. Like that, the game plays on and on to maintain its current status co namely the ' centralized democratic dictatorship' of one-party system. Thus, until and unless the system itself go through a revolutionary change of its own, the disease of power struggle, corruption and power abuse continues. The people of China will have to pay the price eventually, not the party which plays its way....
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I read some reports from the media in China a few days ago which says that there wasn't any heavy rain at all before the dam collapsed and it was an industrial accident purely due to negligence.
The initial official report in China did mention "heavy rain". But some reporters checked the local weather record and found there was only some drizzle at that time. There hasn't been any mention of "heavy rain" in any official report since then. Could you double check this issue, James?
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A system modelled after the labour party, how many times did peter mandelson resign only to return a bit later?
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There is a Chinese saying that 'death, light as a feather, or as weighty as Mountain Tai'.
The life of those hard-working miners and migrant workers may not be as weighty as Mountain Tai, but they certainly don't deserve to be treated as even lighter than feathers!
Because of the cavalier attitude of some officials such as Meng, the same catastrophe happens one after another.
It is such an irony (and a shame, indeed) that China tops predominantly the number of respectable people who die in mining and other working accidents every year, as well as the medal table of the Paralympics games.
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"But in China, if you're sacked it doesn't always mean that you're done. Rehabilitation can come pretty quickly."
Not as quickly as in Britain though. David Blunkett was put back into the Cabinet not even a year after resigning for intervening in his ex-lover's nanny's visa application process and that happened in a supposedly democratic country!
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waiting for your reports. keep on!
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I think it is quite pity for him. However, I don't believe he will be given another chance. meanwhile, it does not mean it is the end of his world. he probably can find an unpolitical or less politicial job.
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enhhhh...it doesnt look good this time round for mr meng. he's done i'm pretty sure, given his age etc.
it's amazing james has done such detailed research on a chinese official. but the story does tell a lot more than just the luck of mr.meng!
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Reply to 4 Linhai
There has been very heavy rain this year. It doesn't have to be raining at the time to cause the collapse. Water flows in many hidden ways.
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I hope there is no more chance for him now. Even a panda zoo-keeper seems more capable than him. But who knows! I won't trust him.
Good to see those in their high positions being removed due to the errors within their remit.
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In response to 3:
"But that tactic will never be applied to top leadership such as Hu Jintao or Wen Jiabao"
While this observation may be true for China, it is true for most "democratic" countries too. Has Bush been sacked for the war or for the economic conditions?
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"Not as quickly as in Britain though. David Blunkett was put back into the Cabinet not even a year after resigning for intervening in his ex-lover's nanny's visa application process and that happened in a supposedly democratic country!"
Governments everywhere have internal pressures. Don't forget what happened to Dr. David Kelly.
I hope James is beginning to see the central and local government link. The central government is not 'untouchable'. If they are not dealing with these local governments a billion people would rain down on Beijing.
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It's pretty difficult to know exactly what is going on, and probably is a combination of:
1/ geniune responsibility
2/ political sacking using 1/ as opportunity. most non-chinese people don't realise how intense the power struggle is inside the communist party. it is not one big happy family.
3/ unwilling political sacking but will repent later due to his personal power base.
4/ increase public stability by sacking a local leader, making premier more likable.
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bluejeansbj
In case you don't know, the US presidential election happens every 4 years. There's also mechanism with which the Congress (directly elected so represents the people) can impeach, or ultimately, remove the president from office should he be convicted.
They could have voted Bush out in 2004 if they wanted that badly enough; my guess is Bush wouldnt be able to win this time even if he were to run.
The thing is, even if he were to stay, it's still because the majority of the American people wanted him to stay. There's nothing you could do about it unless you were American, which you probably aren't.
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In response to 16:
"Has Bush been sacked for the war or the economic conditions?"
Of course not. He was given a mandate by the people of America to run their country. Moreover he will not be in power come the end of his term.
Did Bill Clinton and face impeachment (sacking) for his abuses of offices? Yes.
Furthermore, your use of quotation marks on the word democratic is a clear attempt to sneer at Western governance. It is impossible and inconvient to achieve perfect democracy.
Where would one draw the line; for example do we choose that the people vote for every civil servant and road project which is undertaken?
Get with it: America is democratic. It may not be perfectly so, but it's a much better approximation than in China.
Finally, I'm not saying that I support either America or China, or that sacking high profile officials makes sense or not in such circumstances. But please if you are going to contribute to the conversation make a point that is valid and thought out.
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Speaking as someone who loves the "Mother Land", the Chinese government should take the public anger as a lesson learnt in how democracy works. This is where elections and an independent press can help prevent public anger and these mistakes in appointing failed officials.
If provincial governors were elected officials, and given an independent press that's free to criticise as much as it wants, Meng Xuenong may not have been put in the position of the Governor of Shanxi in the first place.
And on the chance that Meng Xuenong would have been elected anyway (because as we can clearly see, elections are hardly without its problems), then the voting public would have to take ownership for the mistake of putting this man in a position of power in the first place, thus lessening public anger.
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For those who have been to Shanxi in recent years, you can never ignore the fact that they have the most polluted air quality in the world. A gold medal here.
Everything you see is more or less covered with soot from town to town from village to village. You just can't escape, it's in your mouth, in your nose, in your eyes. It is hard to imagine that anyone living around the mining areas will not contract respiratory diseases. You can even sense the devastating effect their mining industry had on the environment is going to kill more.
For people who lost their loved ones in these mine catastrophes might want to see officials in charge get sacked(as the systems always perform the sacking though nobody receives Re-education Through Labour). But in reality they're likely to make a comeback as long as they're well connected.
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I finally got it. The only blogger allowed to use sarcasism as a form of expression is James. This form of writing is banned by BBC for fear of competition.
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I'll be good this times with some boring comment.
Quoting heyone, "The thing is, even if he (Bush) were to stay, it's still because the majority of the American people wanted him to stay."
Not really, Americans had been manipulated and lied to with overblown fear of terrorism.
Democracy got hijacked by lies. If it were not for his constant trumpeting of threat of terrorism-Sadam Hussein, Americans certainly would not have given him the landslide vote. Currently, our greatest enemy is self-deception, not terrorism. Self-deception can lead to the collapse of democratic system, and in our ability to deal with urgent problems we face today. Hope our new president will start his term with honesty and openness, much unlike Bush's administration.
If China were to have democracy, she has to start with transparency and openness of government, a condition which is non-existent at the moment. China's goverment in no way can be compared to the U.S. in terms of power held by the people - democracy.
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To: 21 collynomial
In terms of state governance, surely the US government allows more scope for matters to be debated than its Chinese counterpart. Just see how vociferous American citizens can be and how repressed Ordinary Chinese prefer to be when it comes to the acting-out of frustration and anger towards the government.
It is, however, rather untenable to assume that America is representative of western governance, as you intimated.
Among various versions of democracy, some Entropean countries are much less idealised than US. e.g. The voters of UK, the country where I currently live, have much more realistic view about the difference between political rheotoric and real life than Americans.
Very generally speaking, British people are much less eager to defend their country or politicans than both the Chinese and Americans.
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Sorry. Collynomial. I still do not understand your point. The democratic USA is better than nondemocratic China because of the mandate or impeachment of the presidents? Then have these impeachment or mandate correct the mistakes or remove a dangerous person from the top job? Has the democracy implemented a mechanism to prevent further mistakes? Did the democratic USA learn anything from Vietnam war? The killing of millions to achieve nothing? Then how did Iraq war happen? Are you sure similar things would not happen again? Democratic USA is better than nondemocratic China?
19 years ago when I protested on Tian An Men Square we wanted China to become another copy of the USA. Today I thank God that did not happen. It is impossible for democracy to be perfect? At the moment the democratic USA is not only not perfect but also full of severe problems. Make sure you set up a good model first then you can say" here, look, China, learn this from us"
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Just read an interview of the spokeman from the Safety Supervision Bureau in China. When questioned about the "heavy rains" issue, he admitted that there hadn't been any heavy rain before the accident happened. Why don't you correct your report, Mr Reynolds?
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I can not agree more with Collynomial when he said `get with it: America is democratic. It may not be perfectly so, but it's a much better approximation than in China.' People like wonderfolchinese misread his point by saying 'America is better than China' and pointing out American mistakes in the past. Is it the point here to see who is worse, China or America? Or are we comparing America with China in terms of democratic institutions, rule of law and freedom? I am perfectly aware of the American mistakes in the past of conducting warfares in Vietnam and South Korea. Om Mani Paimei Hum (Tibetan prayer) to all innocent and precious lives lost as a result of wars and brutal repression!!! But, have you, wonderfulchinese, thought about even if these wars by America were not fought, although majority of us oppose those wars, how can you be still sure that millions of lives would not be lost in the hands of the communist governments, given the fact that the communist parties of China, Vietnam and North Korea killed millions of their own people and others. In China, during the so-called Great Leap Forward, and the Cultural Revolution and the occupation of Tibet etc. killed millions of people in a matter of a year. I think it is little absurd to talk about how many more human lives each killed in their respective campaign.
Let's come back to our subject of democracy, all in all, American system is more dynamic than the Chinese system which is unbelievably stagnant. Please, don't undervalue the word 'dynamic', coz. it is intimately linked to the power of the people to change things, including the destiny of a country. We will witness this American dynamism more than ever in America's 'historical' election this fall. I am not an American, I can not but to admire this culture of democracy, and the power of the people to turn things upside down when they are not on the right track. America will change, adapt, evolve and prevail not because American people are so much better than others, including Chinese, but because of the American system created and recreated by America's brightest minds, a dynamic democratic culture hardly fails to renew this United States of America. On the other hand, China over the years, produced a system crossed between extreme coporatism (communism with Chinese characteristics) and extreme political ideaology, totalitarian system (one-party rule) that has brought tremendous suffering to its people, destruction of its own ancient and great civilization let alone the destruction of others such as Tibet, despite 'national' economic growth.
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Meng Xuenong is one of Hu Jintao's most trusted aid since the time in Chinese Youth League, an organization for teens between 14--28 running by Chinese Communist Party. Meng is not likely to be back again for this is already the 2nd time, but he will surely have very lucrative resignaton package.
Things like covering up public saftey concerns are always happening in China, such as the tainted milk powder case recently. The government doesn't really care about whether the people suffers, instead, it controls the effect within its border.
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heyone,
Well spoke!! That is equally true in China that if the Majority people do want to remove CCP, they can always have their way, like what they did to the former US supported ruling party GMT (which was also one party ruled) . The fact that most of the people defended CCP even it is obviously wrong in some cases is due to the same reason why US people elected G.W. Bush in 2004. Admit it. CCP is still the choice of significant majority Chinese people. I do prefer China be more democratic, but only if in its own way. Nobody said demecracy can appears as only one form, and that form is what the west is taking.
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To Newborn Khampa.
Quote from your post. "America will change, adapt, evolve and prevail not because American people are so much better than others, including Chinese, but because of the American system created and recreated by American's brightest minds, a dynamic democratic culture hardly fails to renew this united states of America"
What a superior system and what a superior race. You know how certain race of people makes certain mistakes? It happens when they feel they are superior above the other races. The whites slaved the blacks when they were so much advanced ahead of the blacks. The Australian government took away Aboriginals' children from their mothers when they were so much superoir.
The British colonised and looted continents when they were so superoir. The USA killed millions when they think they are so superior than the brutal communist or dictator. The mechanism of all these brutal acts is the same: the superiority.
In the long history of mankind the USA is only one step faster than the other nations. But it has its own problems. The wars that caused so much sufferring is only part of its problem. American people may be able to get rid of polititians such as Gorege W Bush but they would not be able to get rid of the mechnism that produces more Bush type of polititians. The selective use of information by both the media and polititians. The power of weapon companies and arm dealers. The oil thirsty. The desire to dominate the planet forever. ....... All of these will result in wars and sufferring of other nations.
No. This is not the brand of democracy China needs. The culture revolution and great leap forward are in Chinese high school students' text book. Chinese people know they need a better political system and reforms. Do American people know there are fundamental problems in their system? I do not think so. They believe in their system. They think voting will fix it up for them.
About Tibet. The communists were destructive indeed. They destroyed the feudal socienty and serfdom thoroughly. Congratulations to all Tibetan slaves, serfs and their offsprings. Sorry to those who used to own slaves and land.
The reality is Tibetan and Han culture both live on despite many claims of culture genocide.
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James.
The local government are not responsible to maintain the safety standard of illegal mines. They are responsible for failing to shut it down. It is a difficult task to shut down illegal mines in a country where there is a power shortage.
ShanXi is a hot sweet patato in Chinese. Illegal mines is a long term difficult problem. 3-4 governors of Shanxi lost their jobs in recent years due to their poor performance. Meng was given a difficult task to trial him out. He failed. This is the end of his carrer.
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shame on Chinese government! I didn't recognise his name reading the headline of the day, no idea that he was the former mayor of Beijing. They may have thought he could quietly get away given time but bad luck this time! and how ironic it is!
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wonderfulchinese,
What a pity that you have to depict your world in such a black-white fashion, even more unfortunate if you really think what you are saying. Like Collynomial, I have never said USA is so perfect. You paint me, this non-american Tibetan, as an American nationalist. Far from it, I agree that great mistakes were made by the USA in the past, but that does not make China so much better. Does it? You think just because you point out the past mistakes of the USA, then you can get away with China's current brutalities such as what is going on in Tibet. By the way, just to remind you, it was not, however, our point of discussion.
There is Tibetan saying that goes like, 'when one talks about the fifth Dalai Lama, another talks about the fifth month'. This seems to be true between our comments and responses...so, hereby, I would let you be your 'wonderfulChinese' (hehe..).
Regarding the question of Tibet, you seem to know very little about the country, its culture and people, except parroting an official Chinese view on Tibet. The truth is that there was no 'slaveowners' or 'owned slaves' in Tibet prior to the Chinese occupation that resulted the death of 1.2 million Tibetans. That being said, the old system in Tibet was far from perfect, power abuse and conflicts were there just as in any other society, although it is somewhat incomparable to the brutal Chinese occupation and repression that Tibet is undergoing currently. Furthermore, never been a legitimacy for Chinese occupation of Tibet, could it? Tibetans are fully capable of managing their own country's affairs, they don't need the Chinese to 'liberate' them. 'Tibetan culture' may live on in China, but it is increasingly China 's 'tibetan culture' not the cultural tradition of the Tibetans. Cultural Genocide is not a claim, it is too real to be just a claim, especially if you are in Tibet.
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Newborn_Khampa,
First of all, Tibet was never a country. It was always a part of China in almost all of its dynasties. Secondly, a Chinese official view does not necessarily means wrong; vice versa, your view does not necessarily means right. Even talking to the representaess of common Tibetans, you are not necessarily better than the so called Chinese official view. Thirdly, a 95% Tibetans population consisting of traditional Tibetan origin and 5% of other natinalities origin does not mean Cultural Genocide or occupation.
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NewbornKhanpa.
You are in some sort of denial. No slavery in Tibet before 1950 according to you? If you have been told that since you were young by your parents then it is very hard to accept something that is quite different. I get most my knowledge about Tibet from western scholars not from Chinese government. Visit Dr Michael Parenti 's website and see the research he did on the evidence of brutal slavery and serfdom in Tibet. His research also answers you about the 1.2 million genocide claim. No country can be guilty of genocide until there are enough evidence to prove it. A 1953 census recorded the entire population of Tibet at 1274000. If 1.2 million Tibetans were killed in 1959 then almost the entire Tibetan population were wiped out. Then how did the few Tibetans breed to 5.5 millions 50 years later? Noted that there is a not strictedly applied policy that Tibetan families can have up to 3 children and Han family can have only 1 child.
In the old Tibet people 's average life span was only 35 years old. Today it is 65 because of improved living standard and better medical care.
Tibet has been part of China since Yuan Dynasty and will be part of China for thousands years to come. No one single country on this planet accept your claim that Tibet is a "country" or a "nation". Almost every single country in this world has separatists. They sometimes take violent means to achieve what they want. The 3.14 riot is a brutal show by few Tibetan separatists. They donot represent majority Tibetans. The looting, burning, stabbing, stoning, beating, of Han and Muslim local population reveal how violent they are. The attacks on schools and hospitals tell you what they really want. They do not want Tibetans arm with science and knowledge. They do not want Tibetans to enjoy the medical care provided by central govenment. They want the backward old Tibet back so they can rule Tibet again with their karma theory.
Also you can do some research to find out what CIA did in Tibet and their analyse about the failed "Uprising" by Tibetan upperclass. Asked your self why did not the majority join the "uprising" if the government were brutal to them?
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wzqings and wonderfulchinese,
Denial? A free nation (Tibet), with its own currency, national anthem, flag, postal stamp, national passport, everything a country possesses, was brutally occupied by its bullying neighbour, and still says it was a ‘liberation’ from what, a ‘slavery system’ of their own making, and without a slight sense of humanity and moral reflection. Who is in denial? The Chinese invaders came, and divided our homeland into different pieces, and many regions incorporated into various Chinese provinces. And now calls a piece of Tibet, ‘Tibet’. They invade Tibet in 1950, slaughtered its people, exploited her resources and suppressed her people mercilessly, and yet they say they brought ‘salvation’ to the Tibetans. Who is in denial here? You intrude into somebody’s home and slaughter their grandparents and parents, and teach their children that you are the ‘true parents’ and if anybody protest, then you murder them. Is that your denial or mine? Had you done your homework on Tibet, you would not ask this, ‘…then how did the few Tibetans breed to 5.5 millions 50 years later?’ unnecessary and silly question.
For you, my knowledge of Tibet before 1950 is told to me by my mediocre Tibetan parents who lived in Tibet during that time and suffered Chinese occupation themselves, while your knowledge of Tibet is produced by someone like Michael Parenti who has no, whatsoever, previous records of research on Tibet let alone talking to a single Tibetan or been to anywhere near Tibet. Your so-called ‘western scholars’ has led you to Michael Parenti. If you really be honest, the day you found your tongue in Michael Parenti on Tibet, you then start to call him a ‘scholar’ on Tibet not because of his ‘scholarship’, if there is anything scholarly about his works. Give me another western scholar who has at least some sort of research or records on Tibet, not Michael Parenti, if you can? You still think your ‘knowledge’ is the truth while mine is propagated by my parents, and of course yours is free from Chinese Communist party propaganda. What is more likely that, a political party spread lies to its citizens or parents tell their children lies? My knowledge of past Tibet is from my own people written into their memories by their own personal experiences. What better historical materials could there be? I also read third parties extensively, including Westerners who had lived in Tibet before the occupation. I recommend you to read Seven Years in Tibet by Heinrich Harrar, A short history of Tibet by Hugh Richardson and Dragon in the land of snow by Tsering Shakya, just to name a few.
There may have been improvement in terms of material life in Tibet. So, what? Every corner of the world has improved materially, which is nothing but a universal phenomenon. It is not because the Chinese occupation of Tibet, and these would be there anyway. You should put that into your head that Tibet would be much better off without the Chinese occupation economically. WE can create our home a prosperous nation based on own civilization. Tibet has never been part of China, not even during yuan dynasty which was after all a Mongolian dynasty during which Genghis Khan conquered half of the world. If Tibet is part of China then, most East Asian, Central Asian and some European countries will have to be part of China. Will you claim them as well? Do you think that history is something that you can just make up of your own? No way!! It is about people, identity, culture, tradition and so on.
Ultimately, the people of Tibet will decide whether they want independence or stay within China, despite your colonial claim. They know perfectly well that political regimes, and colonial empire collapse and then die, but not TRUTH. As long one single Tibetan is alive and breadth on this planet, the flame of truth will not extinguish like most previously oppressed people did to liberate themselves from the shackle of colonialism. For China, Tibet is its final test; whether to create a ‘united’ China or to dig its own graveyard. You need to reflect little bit why Tibet will be a turning point for China’s rise and fall. Think, use your head!!
The Tibetan uprising against Chinese occupation in recent months is nothing, but our people’s defiance against China’s 58 years of humiliation, repression and atrocities. This is just the beginning, and there will be many more like that in the future, if China fails to read Tibetans wish. The fact that Tibetans all over Tibet and the majority in those places show the defiance against China is truly from the hearts and minds of overwhelming majority Tibetans, and with a clear message; ENOUGH is ENOUGH, no more occupation and repression. Hundreds of demonstrations took place in different parts of Tibet since 10th March had been overwhelmingly peaceful, although the Chinese police used their lethal weapons to crack down on them. On the Tibetan side, there were frankly some protestors got violent during the 14th demonstration, which however can not represent the hundreds and thousands of peaceful protestors who constitute the majority protestors. China should also acknowledge this peaceful nature of the overall demonstrations in Tibet for her own sake.
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Newborn_Khampa,
I was not talking about the so called Tibet liberation. You may be right may be wrong, I am not good knowledged enough to comment it. But upon the common situation in China and the system Tibet was doing then, that there could be quite a lot of poor people who did need a liberation from slavery (no body needed that,right?); of course many people were killed becasue of the war and its offsprings hated CCP. These reasons are understandable. What past is past. What we can do now? Improve the life standard of Tibetans is the most practable thing we can do. The so called unriot on 14.03.2008 is the worst thing anybody should do. I am sad for the people killed by the riots absolutely; violence was never a choice, even in Dali,s claimed dictionary.
I talked about the history of Tibet; it was part of China for many dynasities not the special short time before 1950. The international community accept a Tibet visa then just because there was no powerful Chinese government for the time being. So were visa of Hongkong and Macou and many regions of the world recogelized. That does not give a ground that Tibet is a country.
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Some cursory thoughts on Tibet issues
1. There is no point harking back to the past--very few of the countries who speak loud on the international stage could be exonerated from previous colonisations of the weak. To be fair, China is barely qualified to be on the list of great colonisers in recent imperialistic history.
2. So, focus on the present. How much can Tibet benefit from independence from China? Religion is never far away from politics--it is always those on top who reap the benefits. Will the majority of ORDINARY tibetans have a better life, economically and socio-politically, as a new state thereafter? Peronally, I doubt it.
3. The tone of Dalai Lama has changed. According to a recent BBC interview, negotiation seems to figure prominently in his speech. Efforts therefore should be made to put more pressure on the Chinese government to handle religious matters in a civilised and humane manner--to which any conscientious Chinese should not turn a blind eye!
To be clear, I am not a fan of Chinese Communist Party, nor do I lack proper respect for people who advocate religious freedom.
It is just the oft-neglected mundane reality--which is far beyond political/religious decisions and yet invariably affected by them--that I am talking about.
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To Newborn Khampa.
If Dr Parenti is not good enough then Anna Louise Strong's Tibetan Interviews and When Serf Stood up may offer an alternative. Sir Charles Bell is a british colonial officer, a renowned Tibet Scholar and a personal friend of the 13th Dalai Lama. Read his Tibet: Past and Present. It may help. Mountaining evidence revealed the horror of serfdom and slavery.
The old Tibet was not a free, religious kingdom without poverty. Quite opposite indeed. There was no road. Travel was by foot, by mule, and by yaks. There was no medical care. Even most of Dalai Lama did not make it to 18 years old. Most of the population was illiterated. Polygyny and polyandry were common practice. Giving birth to twins were considered proof that a woman had mated with an evil spirit. Rape of women serfs was common under the ulag systems because a lord can have temporary wifes......
Tibet has changed for better.
Monks are definitely not happy. Monk rule does not belong to this centary. They have to learn to live with it.
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Hello Wzqings, and Onjournalism to some exent,
Let's make a few things clear here. First of all, I have never said that Tibet prior to the occupation did not need reform, or 'liberation' if you would like to choose that word. In fact, 13th Dalai Lama initiated reform was under way already then, but because of China's brutal occupation, it was unfortunately interrupted. What I really said was that we did not need CHINESE 'liberation', we were and are capable of taking care of our own business. I agree we should look forward, but that does not mean we have to forget the past from which can learn. You said "....there could be quite a lot of poor people who did need a liberation from slavery (no body needed that,right?" If that's the liberation you are talking about, then you should have a better look at China and Tibet today, where so many 'poor' people suffering under the communist rule. I agree that improving the 'living standard' of Tibetans is important. Don't forget that for Tibetans living standard includes not only material life, but more importantly spiritual life. It is a fundamental belief that happiness comes from mind not matter. Becareful, that does not mean we don't need materials, of course we do. I can not agree more when you said violence should not be the choice. As a Tibetan, I personally oppose those few protestors voilent action which led to the death of those 3 sweet girls (Om Mani Peimei Hum). I also oppose the action of Chinese government for killing 214 Tibetan protestors. Violence is never an option, true indeed, what you have seen is few violent Tibetan protestors, but I have overwhelming majority protestors were peaceful. What you have seen 14.03.2008, but i have seen peaceful protestors from 10.03.2008 to 21.06.2008. What you have seen is 14.03.2008 violence by few individuals from thousand protestors, and I have seen 1950-2008 violence by Chinese government in Tibet.
Regarding the history of Tibet, it has never been part of China throughout history, whether it is ancient or modern time. You read more books on the historical staus of Tibet. Your Hong Kong visa comparison is an interesting observation, although you should differentiate between passport and visa, but you should make little more deeper into the matter. On that passport, it writes 'People's Republic of China, HongKong passport' . Therefore, it states clearly that Kongkong is not a nation but part of People's Republic China while on Tibetan passport, no single word of Chinese or China is mentioned, but the snowland nation of Tibet. Besides, you are eligible to apply for a HKSAR Passport if you are:
a Chinese citizen;
a permanent resident of the HKSAR; and
a holder of a valid Hong Kong permanent identity card.
If you were a Chinese citizen back then in Tibet, you were NOT eligible to Tibetan passport. Onjournalism, I appreciate your support for those who advocate religious freedom in China and Tibet, but Tibet issue can not just be reduced to an issue of religion. You have a point when you say religion will not be separated from politics even in an independent Tibet, that's what I call a Tibetan challenge which has been an important subject for debate in Tibetan diaspora for many years now. I am confident that secularization will take its rightful place, not because we fight so hard for it, it is supported by many important Tibetan leaders, including the Dalai Lama and other lamas. Tibetans have built a vibrant democratic system in exile, and democratization is an ongoing process in Exile.
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Newborn_Khampa,
Sorry I am not actually very intrested in what you talked anymore. But you got me wrong and I need to clarify.
1. I talked about the visa of Hongkong and Makou before their return. Before the return, visa of Hongkong was British (oversea), that does not mean Hongkong was not part of China then (please remember the word rented, meaning we still owned it). I know the logic is not the same, because the reason that few countries (please note only few) recognised a visa of Tibet for lacking of a strong Chinese government and Hongkong was a rented colony then; but the fact that no UN country never ever recognize a Tibet visa after 1950s can at least tell you sth.
2. You are funny when you talk about Tibet was not part of China by pointing out Yuan dynasties owned by Mogonias. It was true that Mogonias conquered almost the whole Asia and part of Europen then. But please remember, Yuan was part of China, and Tibet was part of Yuan. Europen and other Asian countries conquered by other Mogonians not Yuan (they were different tributaries although they were offsprings from the same Genghis Khan). I guess you do understand Hubilie declared he was emperor of China as Yuan Dynasty but he did not declared he was emperor of other countries which owned by his brothers. Plus, even you may think that is a complicated history because after all the rulers were Mogonians. But how about Min Dynasty? Tibet was part of CHina during the whole Min and Qing Dynasty (which you may also say they were ruled by Manchu Chinese not Han). That was a history of about 700 years (even Yuan dynasty was not included). Fortuantely we do can provide you history records on this thanks to our great ancient invention (paper and printing) .
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Newborn Khampa.
Not 1.2 million genocide anymore but 214 protestors killed? Evidence to back the claim?
Chinese have no problem with peaceful protest. Anyone not happy can protest. Protests of different scales happened in many places in China in recent years. Out of 1.3 billion people if 1/1000 are not happy then there would be 1,300,000 people not happy. If only 1 out of 1000 decide to protest then there would 1,300 protesting. So any protest of 1000 people is quite normal for a country has a popullation of 1.3 billion. No government in this world can make every single citizen happy.
The so called peaceful protest by Tibetan monks and Tibetans in exile are not peaceful. Yes, there are many protests by monks watched by thousands of onlookers that did not lead to violence. But the monk leaded protest in Lasah resulted in programmed attacked on Han and Muslim in Tibet. It is clearly a racial attack on non-believers. Whenever and whereever there is violence directly links to a religion it has to be closely scrutinized. Resorted to violence only make people doubt the quality of the so called peaceful and democratic religion. The torch relay protests were another ugly show. Using fire extinguisher on torch bearer, snaching torch by force and harrassing wheel chair bound athlete only show the world what kind of people they are. They are not peaceful.
It is a fact that there were suppression and violence on religions during the culture revolution. The Chinese government does not deny it and Chinese people can tell lot of stories about it. The Chinese government does not have a drape of democracy/freedom. It is subjected to the critism from all over the world. In contrats Tibetans in exiles have presented the government in exile as a democracy to western world. Most westerners buy unconditionally simply because they do not know much about it. There is a basic principle in democracy: the church must be separated from the state. Definitely not so in this government in exile. It is run by monks who work as polititians. Monks have 2 votes while ordinary Tibetan in exile only have one vote. What kind of democracy is that? It is a religion rule full stop. The darkest thing on the planet.
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To newborn Khampa.
The interaction between Han, Mongolian, Manchuran and Tibetan is a long story. China is not a single ethnic state. In recent history Mongolian, Han and Manchurian took their turn to run the country. Mongolians invaded Europe during their rule and Manchurian took Korea during their rule. But one things has been consistant through out centuaries is Tibet has been on China's map started from Yuan Dynasty, during Ming Dynasty, Ching Dynasty, Republic of China, and today's people's republic of China. Same to XinJiang province and inner mongolia. There are separatists in almost every single country in this world. My advice to them is to avoid a violent approach. Respecting nations' sovereignty is the fundation of world peace and the opposite only leads to wars.
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