Sacred ceremony ends Beijing Games
It's over.
In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion - together with its own cathedrals, rituals, and sacred flames. Everyone in China was meant to be a worshipper. If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic.
It all ended tonight with a suitably sacred ceremony in the Bird's Nest Stadium. Our camera position was a few metres away from the VIP section. China's leaders sat in the front row with the IOC President Jacques Rogge. On each of their desks was a pair of binoculars and also a pen and paper (just in case any of them suddenly felt moved to write a speech).
The King and Queen of Sweden sat a bit further back - democratically wearing their official Olympic accreditation round their necks.
Britain's Prime Minister Gordon Brown was tucked back in the fifth row, next to China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi (a man who's clearly been on put on foreign leader duty - Mr Jiechi sat next to President Bush during the basketball).
London's mayor, Boris Johnson, looked a little out of place amid the crisp, well-tailored Chinese officials around him. He walked onto the stage, semi-saluting as he went (correct protocol seemed to call for a more subdued royal wave instead).
He then took part in a rather solemn three-way Olympic flag waving contest. The mayor of Beijing went first and managed to get the flag slightly tangled up. He handed it to Jacques Rogge, who waved it and semi-untangled it. Boris Johnson tried not to get swallowed by the flag. He eventually got it right and waved away.
London then began its eight-minute show. The biggest cheer of the entire night came when David Beckham rose up from the 2012 bus (if ever China decides to hold elections, Beckham might have a reasonable chance of getting a seat on the Chinese Politburo).
Then came the final moment of a decade of work. The Olympic flame (always known here as the "sacred flame") was put out.
A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in.
I’m 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~28~RS~)
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A great success! Welcome to China again. Go, London, next! Welcome to London, I am waiting for you and for the Games.
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Credit should be given when credit is due - come on James, let us hear you admit your suspicions were unfounded, let us hear you say well done to China.
China is a huge country, and the Chinese people have be fully captivated by the Olympic spirit, what will they believe next? well, they only have to believe in themselves and carry on the Olympic spirit - faster, stronger, higher!
And I hope can Olympic spirit will be carried on by the people in London, I hope people in the UK are large enough to put aside the differences of religous, political, culural. We live under one world, we all have one dream.
if the Olympic spirit lives on, everybody is a winner!
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Thank goodness it is all over. The sportsmen and women were wonderful. But the opening and closing ceremonies were hypocritcal. If by chance I saw a bit of each I cried because I remembered all of the people the Chinese Communist government (not the Chinese people) is currently abusing in its terrible prisons. Especially the ones being tortured because of their religious believes. (How could the Chinese allude to Bhuddist images in the opening ceremony when Bhuddists are not allowed to follow their religion?)The artistic merit, sentimental music etc made me feel sick. Reminded me of Nazi Germany.
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Tell you who is the God of China for next 50 years of China:
Building the country stronger, stronger and stronger by 2050.
You do not know anything of Chinese philosophy, religious at all. My parents worships our acensters nearly everyday. Respect the ancients, respect the family, respect the public as well as the individual.
We simpley have more Gods rather than just one God.
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Having Frank Spencer wave the flag for Britain might have been less embarrassing ('hadda bitta trouble, hmm!') but it's actually NICE to see someone not taking it all so seriously! Tom Daley should teach some of the other athletes how to smile as well.
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"A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in." great comment, hahaha
but don't worry about Chinese after such great entertament, they always know the next party to go. prepare your London games.
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"A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in."
Even before the Games, after the Iraq invasion, Tibet riot, petty and negative reporting on China, lots of Chinese had stopped believing in Western media. They had starting to find something else to believe in.
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Well, the people now do have something to believe in. Look no further, they are now more devout believers of the Ruling Party.
Maybe, the purpose of the Games was to make a greater religion out of the Ruling Party, not that it wasn*t one in the first place.
In present-day China,
Worship=traditional ceremony
Morality=Confucianism
Religion=Ruling Party
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“In a state which has no God”
Well, China actually has much more Gods than most of the countires in the world. Taoist Gods are countless, buddist Gods are permanent residents, Christian God has been a long-time guest.
Since we wouldn't mind electing Beckham to our Politburo as suggested , I guess it finally doesn't matter to us anymore that we will always be labeled as communists.:)
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Here comes the typical British humor and irony, one of things I personally like about the Brits.
The Christian god hasn't taken root in China but the Chinese worship a philosophical god, Confucius, whose wisdom still infuses almost every area of life, even though it has been cloaked in modern glory.
No cultural values are immunised from change and challenge. But certain historical and tradional values concerning family and belief do die hard.
Despite differences on the surface, people all over the world have rituals and religions, albeit in their own ways.
Thus, it is perhaps sensible to say that Christianity is no more 'sacred' than Consucianism and other dazzling forms of religion however they are dubbed.
For the Chinese, the Olympics is the climax of their ritual sistem. When that is over, they continue to 'worship' in subdued fashion. But, through their increasingly intensified interactions with other value systems, the Chinese are bound to 'revise' their doctrines more frequently than ever before, just as the way in which Christianity has been changed over the time.
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Games are over ! I did enjoy a lot !
"find something else to believe in" ? Well, I would say not necessary.
For me, it just re-start from the very beginning, I did doubt the communism regime but after three years UK living life, after the torch relay in London, after seen massive aggressive British faces, after the Olympics---
The answer is located in where I started, Communism with Chinese Characteristic
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Did you get out the wrong side of bed 16 days in a row?
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Hopefully the regime would now leave the two grandmas alone, not treating them as threats to the state.
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It's Mr.Yang......not Mr.Jiechi....
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I am so tired of what you wrote. Could you get any glummer about China? Did China do something wrong to you before?
Typical!
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"Olympics has been a religion - together with its own cathedrals, rituals, and sacred flames."
You got that right James. Now look like you Brits are caught by the same Olympic bug too.
Olympic is the most important event from which all mankind see what we can achieve if we put our will, physique, imagination, mind, and hard work together. It's the testimony of God's power and spirit evidently seen from the making of the event (Beijing 2008 especially) to the performance of all the athletes from around the world. Yap, Michael Phleps, and Unsain Bolt both had elevated themselves to God status.
"Then came the final moment of a decade of work. The Olympic flame (always known here as the "sacred flame") was put out.
A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in.."
Well there is always another Olympic in 2 (winter) - 4 years (summer). We all looking forward and prepare for the next one, aren't we?
If the world is into sports instead of of wars, the world would be a much better place.
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The Chinese attitude seems a bit extreme to say the least. Since when did winning a silver medal become a criminal offence?
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I've just seen/heard your report on TV, the games were absolutely brilliant, but why oh why you keep delivering your reports as if you were reading a thrilling story to little children? Your slow and gradual intonation and the sensationalism embedded in your delivery, really doesn't do your report any justice!
For one I'd like to be treated as an intelligent adult who can make my own judgement on the information and facts rather than be influenced by the added drama added to make "good TV"
"In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion"
P-ppppppplease!
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What's the point of descibing things we've already seen on TV?
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Hi, James, here are my some comments:
Firstly you said, “In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion”, finally you said, “A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in.”
I found it shocking that given you have lived in China for quite a while, you apparently didn’t even know what Chinese believe in. Putting communism aside, isn’t it obvious that most the Chinese believe in the Confucianism (though it doesn’t have the concept of God). If you ever watched the opening ceremony, there is a scene that a lot of people in ancient Chinese clothes reading the Analects which is a classic book of Confucianism. Along with Confucianism, there is also Taoism, both of which the Chinese have believed in for thousands of years, so why do the Chinese "have to find something else to believe in”?
Also I noticed that on TV you said that (the Chinese government) has done what democratically cannot be “justified” to the voters (i.e. a lot of money has been spent on the Olympics). I do not understand why you think this is not justified. You clearly know that most Chinese are very happy and proud with the Olympics, and one of your colleges in Beijing (cannot remember her name but she can speak good Mandarin) interviewed some villagers (showed live on TV) and turns out that they are quite happy as well (including the money spend in Beijing). Secondly I do not understand why you mentioned democracy. I would be glad if you can explain how it is democratically justified when US/UK started the Iraq war (still no end in sight) which costs times more money (plus human cost) than the Beijing Olympics.
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James,
You managed to know the Olympic flame was called "sacred flame" by translation literally, but, you called Chinese Foreign Minister "Mr Jiechi" without knowing Chinese (or Korean, or Japanese, or Vietnamese) family name is put before their given name.
Basically, it is like you are called "Mr. James". That's after you have been living in China... for how long now?
It would be beneficial, helpful, appropriate, if you study a little bit about a foreign country, her custom, before you are sent there to work as a reporter. No wander your "could be" sincere reporting have been perceived as 'bias' at times.
It's not your fault though, I believe it is the arrogance of BBC news.
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This could be provocative.
I just had a discussion with some Brits over the Olympics. Here is the point:
The mentality of the Chinese is quite similar to that of the American, despite the apparent difference in ideological orientation (i.e. individualism vs socialism).
Think of the enthusiasm for the pomp and ceremony and the eagerness to defend their own country. The so-called 'ostentious' mentality.
By contrast, the national pastime of complaining, arguing and satirising makes the British more relaxed about the 'grand' stuff. The so-called 'come off it' mentality.
I am not trying to dignify the sometimes hypocritical and aloof Oxbridge dons. Nor do I intend to demean the often generous and welcoming Chinese and American people.
But is it interesting to think with?
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Is China supposed to be apologetic for not having a state religion? There are many countries without state religions. Is having a state religion a criterion of civilised behaviour? As I recall, much of European history was marred by religious conflicts. And the British were no exception. How many Catholics did Henry VIII kill for refusing to acknowledge him as head of the English Church or support his marriage to Anne Boleyn? Similarly, how many Protestants did Mary Tudor burn at the stake in her attempt to return England to the Catholic Church? I rest my case.
The Chinese Communist Party may not subscribe to the idea of a god, but this does not mean that ordinary Chinese cannot, and do not, have their own dieties. Unlike you guys from the Judeo-Christain world, often fixated on the idea of a monotheistic god, the Chinese have gods for every part of the house and for every occasion. There is a kitchen god, to whom one prays for guidance in cooking a sumptious meal. There is Mazu, the sea goddess whom one prays to whenever one ventures into the open sea. There is the fertility god, the god of good fortune, the laughing Buddha...the list is endless...take your pick James. I am sure if you research hard enough, you may even find one that specialises in rev-ing up one's sagging mojo.
When it comes to gods, the Chinese are very good at creating them and importing them. The Chinese are living proof of Emile Durkhiem's philosophical contention that it is man who create gods and not the other around. These Chinese dieties co-exisit peacefully with each other, something which some pathetic people from monotheistic relgious backgrounds are unable to fathom. Forcing people to convert by means of the sword is a European/ Middle Eastern phenomenon, something totally alien to the Chinese. Now tell me, who is more civilised.
Talking of the 8-minute British segment of the closing ceremony, I must confess that it is the most boring part of the show. I almost fell asleep. Luckily, the Chinese performers came on back again. The music by Leona Lewis and Jimmy, if one can call it such, was most painful to the ears. The double decker bus and dancers tumbling around with their umbrellas were so ordinary. Hardly inspiring. And those people walking up the stairs, like they were going to board a plane, and ended up staring at the darkness....what is that supposed to symbolise? The dark prospect of young British men dying in faraway Georgia in defence of freedom and democracy? I guess I got to be thankful that David Beckham didn't attempt to sing as well. He would have out-sopranoed Sarah Brightman.
There is something I didn't quite understand though? Why did the TV commentator keep referring to Mayor Boris Johnson as flamboyant? Is that English euphemism for pansy?
Given the spetacular Olympics we have all seen in Beijing in the last few days, I wonder how London could possibly match it.
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I know some people feel that some Chinese overract to James Raynolds' comments, sometimes I agree with them. But this time, it is clear that dear James portrays Chinese as a bunch of brainwashed robots without agency as shown in this sentence: "If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic."
How does he know? Especially when we know it is not like that. I wonder how much James know about the numorous in-depth jokes Chinese people exchange about political events and leaders in China. We are equally well-informed, if you think you are.
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About James' comment on BBC TV news that China has spent a sum of money on Olympic that no democratic country can justify to its tax payers. Suppose you are right, how about the tens of billions the so-called democratic countries spent on 'defence' and wars?
I think dear James has two mottos: Whatever the Chinese government does is wrong. Whatever the Chinese government says is a lie. The reason is simple: it does not fit western democratic criteria, which has nothing to do with politics and partisan brainwashing of people but high, supreme morality obviously.
BTW, James, can you please do me a favour by informing me the exact date when Great Britain fit all the domecratic criteria? Rome is not built in one day. That's what I learnt in English.
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Interesting piece.
If you call the Games a ritual instead of a religion, it'd be more accurate.
I don't think that the Chinese call the Olympic flame 'the sacred flame' just because China hosted the Games this year (as you seem to suggest). The Chinese have the habit of calling things in this manner, e.g. the translation of Excalibur is often 'the sacred sword', and the Paladin is translated as 'the sacred knight'. The 'sacred flame' certainly does not make the Games more religious, if it ever is to the smallest degree.
Speaking about religion (it seems you really are playing with this idea), China does not have a state-endorsed God, but the 5 million Catholics and the 16 million Protestants will certainly disagree if you say that there is no God in China (source: xinhuanet. you can also refer to Wikipedia for information: search 'Chinese terms for God').
Allah is also worshipped in China (and not restricted to Xinjiang Uyghurs). I happen to have a Muslim friend (called the Hui in Chinese) who prays five times a day (time permits). There are nearly 10 million Hui people in China (Wikipedia), although not all of them are as religious as that friend of mine.
As for the Chinese folk religion, which to some extent all ethnic Han Chinese believe in, you just do not wish to count the number of deities, as there are too many.
Therefore, in a state where there is no official God, people do not really need the Olympics as a religion.
On a minor issue (I almost find myself nitpicking...but I think it's good for you after all), you'd better call the foreign minister 'Mr Yang' instead of 'Mr Jiechi', for Yang is his family name. For the convenience of Westerners many Chinese have written their names in the Western 'given name, family name' pattern, but the Chinese way of doing it is just the opposite (the same rule applies to the Japanese and the Koreans, and to many more...)
Here's the tip: usually the Chinese family name comes with only one syllable (there are a few exceptions but the general rule holds). To my knowledge this also applies to the Koreans, but not to the Japanese.
It may sound confusing, but you certainly do not want to be referred to as 'Mr James', in case someone might think you are LBJ of the USA redeem team.
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Your diligence has really impressed me, James! Too bad that so many comments are still waiting moderation.
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i don't understand why you always see things with a dark view,and why can't you see any beautiful things around?
i believe ur world must be all in shadows.as the world is so beautiful,but u couldn't open ur eyes to see. what a shame,i feel so sorry for you!
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Wait... "In a state which has no God..."?
Which god are you talking about, James? What did you see in the Tibetan temple?
No, there's no official god(gods) in China -- Thank "god" for that :-)
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Mr Jiechi should be Mr Yang (surnames come first in Chinese!).
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The comments from Chinese are the most interesting part of the Olympics, though not for the reasons most would assume.
The Chinese nation's leadership has barely budged from its policies. It largely ignored criticism of its human rights record and continued its repression of free speech. Its harsh rule in Tibet has been downplayed, political dissidents locked up, beggars pushed out of Beijing and journalists covering protests roughed-up. It did not grant a single protest permit. It serves the government for China's people to forget about the excesses of Mao's Cultural Revolution in the 1960s and the 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators in Tiananmen Square. The games' lavish opening ceremony, vetted by party leaders, barely touched on communism and the tumultuous decades after the Communist Party came to power in 1949. The ceremony focused on China's ancient culture — Confucius was quoted, Mao was not. 2,000 years ago is more important than 20 years ago for the government of China but not the free world.
The above was very good PR, the best the government could do, however the free world has not forgotten Chinas recent past as it is the same government in power. The free world knows the recent and ancient history of Chinas actions against its people and surrounding areas and does not like the recent ones. It may have not stopped China from taking over Tibet but it knows the true history of both countries and what China did in the takeover. That China insists on telling the free world a different story may be believed in China [survival in a non free country depends on not going against the government] but the free world has recorded Tibet’s history as it happened over the centuries, not as the PPC wants it to have happened. The free world does not like Chinas actions there nor does the free world like [or believe] the Chinese governments lies.
However, Beijing also has another audience to please, that of the millions of Chinese who have benefited from the economic boom through growing personal wealth and greater access to the outside world via limited television and the censored Internet that has occurred over the recent 20 years. It is in the interest of these new wealthy [relatively speaking] people to support the government and forget the governments recent past. A past that they either were a victim of by losing loved ones to the government madness and 10’s of millions did or they were one of the millions of participants [either acting voluntary for their own profit or under duress] of in the madness that the free world watched despite the great attempts of the Chinese government to conceal and lie to the free world. What happened is known, not the details but the overall figures, patterns and most damningly the government sponsorship. Until the government comes clean to the free world the free world will have concern and little respect for Chinas government. The Chinese people are seen as victims in the horrible events perpetrated upon them the same was as the free world sees the German population as victims of Hitler and the Japanese population as victims.
Just to be fair the free world has not forgotten what Japan did during WWII and the fact they do not teach their role in their schools or what Germany did who do teach their children what they did. China is in the eyes of the world in the same boat and doing nothing to change. Actually Chinas boat has sunk because the same government is in control. Any country that does not recognize this does so at their long term survival. That is a historical fact. And, most of all, the people of the free world do not really care what the people in China are saying because they are saying [in the only press allowed that is government controlled or the censored internet] what the government is telling them to say. Some are actually employed by the government and of course they will not admit who their employer is. The Chinese government has been proved to be responsible for internet attacks on sites they do not like around the world, they block sites they do not like, and could not even live up to their commitment of a free net for the games with out relying on double speak worthy of Orwell’s ‘1984’.
NOR, [caps intended to shout this] does the free world have clean hands, but the free world knows what it has done, admits its past mistakes, and at least attempts not to repeat them. This is singly lacking in China and until China admits its past mistakes it will always be perceived as a brutal dangerous dictatorship with communist leanings.
It is in the hands of the Chinese to alter this perception and not the role of the free world to believe what the current Chinese government want the free world to believe, there is too much blood of their countrymen [and women] on them.
Finally the free world has freedom, something people of a non free country can not understand, if they do, their lives are short and brutal. The long term outlook for freedom in the world is not known, there is as much data showing that freedom will not survive or dominate as data showing that it will. Only the free know this, controlled people do not because they are being controlled.
I am sad to say the above because I value freedom over everything and the world is going into a very difficult time as it will run short of energy very soon and non free countries are easer to direct into war. The recent US invasion into Iraq shows this to be true. Freedom is a relative word known more by people who are free than people who are less free.
That said, the comments to these blogs from Chinese, is the most interesting part of the internet freedom now temporally available to mainland Chinese, taken as a whole it reaffirms my opinion of China, sad to say.
Enjoy your net freedom while it lasts because it will be short lived.
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James,
Scared flame? You must be kidding me. I really think very hard to find out where the word 'scared' come from, but I failed. Maybe my Chinese is not that good, even though it's my mother tongue.
Also, you've made another mistake, minor but also fatal. You can't even tell the sir name and the given name of the foreign minister in China. If you were just a ordinary traveller, it would be absolutely fine. No one is expected to know the name of a foreign minister of another country.
Hey, you are the journalist of the BBC in China, but apparently you don't know the name of the Chinese foreign minister! I am seriously considering stop the direct debit for my TV license.
Get your job done, James, do your homework!
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-------------------------------------------------
(if ever China decides to hold elections, Beckham might have a reasonable chance of getting a seat on the Chinese Politburo).
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What is a big joke! There are numerous figures more popular than Beckham to Chinese people. The fact is only a few of young Chinese people fancy this guy, however the people dislike him are even more.
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This is a highly and unnecessarily negative coverage on China than about the closing ceremony.
When you are in Rome do as Romans do.
You don't have a choice you have to accept the Chinese and they have put up a show in their terms.
The problem is we try to fit them in our bottle and we are used to seeing the World with our Blue and Red glasses.
The World has moved on and so have the Chinese.
James, its time you move on.
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"Mr Jiechi" ? :)))))
James, James,
Please get the foreign minister's surname right. It isn't hard if you try.
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James,
You said, 'Everyone in China was meant to be worshiper. If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as heretic.'
I want to tell you that Olympics Games are most of Chinese people's dream not worship, including officials and ordinary people. We like Olympics spontaneously. but not guided or forced by government. Chinese people are conscious, not muddled and stupid.
Have you interviewed and talked with every Chinese people including those in China and overseas? At least, you have never talked to me. How could you make your point? Have you travelled to each corner of China? How long have you lived in China? Have you shared your life with different Chinese people in different social background, with different jobs and different experiences and thoughts?
I read your blog everyday. Most of your articles were written in biased, prejudiced, unjust point of view and with malevolent purposes - Playing down China (including Chinese government and ordinary people)
As a journalist, you have the right to report what you have seen and thought to the bublic. But you also have the obligations to report without bias and unjust views.
During the days working and living in China, haven't you seen any good things worthy to report, but only the minor darkside exagerated by you in your blog? You know your blog is significantly misleading those people with no touching China and Chinese people in western world. The people, who read your blog, will be impressed that China is a world abounding to devils and permeated terror. But is that true? Do you really feel that?
Before sending this message, I have read through the websites of western main media including BBC, New York Times and Washinton Post. There are plenty of articles reporting the Olympic closing ceremony with extolling the games and the success of China in hosting the games. None of articles criticized the games linking to political points. Why? It is because the closure of Games marks that the whole world live together, play together and celebrate the victory achieved by the athletes from around the world together. Tonight is a party time, a celebrating carnvinal, not a political or (you so-called) sacred ceremony. People from five continents came to the Games and the ceremony including British athletes, spectators, London Mayor and British Prime Minister. Would you please ask them what they feel about that party?
Please, please, please respect your readers, respect yourself. If you believe in God, what you have said and behaved isn't what God will. I converted to Buddhism, but not that, you may imagine, is controlled or brainwashed by Communist Party.
YOU ARE WRONG! Your articles are not helpful to Chinese people, but are humiliating Chinese people and our wisdom.
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Yes James, the Games are over. Probably the most politicised Olympics since Moscow. And the western media helped it be so. Your constant fault finding and whinging about these games finally became rather a bore.
The media's role has changed over the years. Not for the better, but only to serve a devisive purpose. I wonder if you even know how bias you sound.
I say, good on China; they tried their best, and put everything they had into the job. Well done.
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Haha - Boris is a laugh. To all the Chinese readers, sorry if our mayor is a bit scruffy, but he's always like that! He's a nice change from our regular politicians, trust me.
He's actually a very intelligent and professional guy, but hard to tell from appearances as he keeps up his "shambolic" image.
Thanks to the Chinese for the best games I can remember.
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I've had Chinese people asking me all day, "What is the significance of people dancing round a bus? Is that a British habit?"
And "Who was that old man playing a guitar?"
They're going to have to do a lot better in 2012.
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ha ha, i am sorry, mr Beck won't win the election and at the mean time he is not interested in the position.
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There are five huge statues of Buddha positioned on high grounds around China, the nearest one to the 'democratic world' is in Hong Kong. The park where the statue is located in Hong Kong was officially opened by none other than Chirs Patton himself in his capacity as the last governor of Hong Kong. It has since became one of the major tourist attractions of the city. One can take a cable car ride all the way up to where the Buddha is located. Personally I have seen two of these statues; the one in Hong Kong and the one near Wuxi. I do not have the exact dimensions, but these statues are so huge that they can be seen form kilometres away. They are made in the foundries of the China States Aeropace Corporation which also manufacture the rockets and the spacecrafts of the Chinese space exploration programme (it is inscribed so on the brass plate as one enters the park where the statue is located).
Lands of no God???!!! Is this ignorance of facts or a deliberate attempt to deceive?
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The Communist regime has successfully launched the Trojan Horse.
Her People’s liberation Police proved the best at c lamping down on its own people.
Her term got enough gold to save their skin and satisfy the Party.
Her context of human rights, press access and freedom to protest nullifys the international one.
Her irrepairable harm done to the hundred and thousands of
Chinese people is the Party’s prerogative and the people’s obligation.
The I.O.C.President has said the game will open china at the beginning and no at the end. No doubthe greatness of host’s hospitality is to be blamed.
Finally,Mr James Reynold. you have introduced the meaning of c lear sky and sun shine to the smog choken Bejing. May you shine like thousand suns.And to my fellow bloggers,
God Bless you all.
C.Tashi
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Please, James, you've lived in Beijing for two years, it's Mr. Yang, not Mr. Jiechi.
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"In a state with no God"??? Ever heard of Secularism??? Jame's blog gets more ridiculous every day. The subject matter are perfectly valid and should be openly discussed. However, the methods employed here to stir up western sentiments by comparing western values to those of China are a bit confusing.
The opening paragraph makes James sound a bit like a religious fanatic... I guess the problem here is that unlike the majority of the world, the UK is still a none secular state... Just like IRAQ, IRAN and a whole bunch of middle eastern countries.
Guess that's what a private British education will do to a person... The middle class values and belief systems are very hard to break down... Much like the political indoctrination that totalitarian/authoritarian states are often criticised for... Only difference is that one is the result of historical, culture upbringing where as the other belongs purely to ideological believes.
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No, not quite like what you said, James. There is one thing we Chinese have been worshiping since ever, and will keep worshiping for ever: FACE.
I don't think Chinese had ever held a slightly sacred feeling toward the Games itself, it is the face connected with it we were longing and seeking, and trying to win and show off in front of the whole world. Now we are quite satisfied and very proud of ourselves. Any foreigner who doesn't hold the same image (the view of our face) as we see ourselves will really annoy us.
Like most of the religions, we worship FACE above the truth. We hold FACE so sacred that if anybody hurts it (making any negative comments on us, for instanse) we will never bother to find out if we are holding a wrong belief in our Face, instead, we think it evident that you foreigners criticizing us are all "foreign devils".
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For your information, first, many religions coexist in China. Second, applaud is an expression of politeness in China but not a sign of 'people will elect you to be their president'. Third, Olympics is a party for Chinese but not a belief, if you can understand the difference.
I'm quite surprised that a BBC jounalist does not have such common sense.
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With all due respect to the athletes who gave their all, I for one am glad the Beijing Games are over. China's rulers shamelessly ignored promises to improve human rights and trampled on the Olympic spirit to present what was a well-choreographed illusion. One world, one dream, what a joke! Far from opening up to the world, the 2008 Olympics have shown again how far a ruthless, one-party state is prepared to go to stifle even the mildest criticism (was it really necessary to jail the two grannies?) The big question is now that the genie of rampant Chinese nationalism has been unleashed, how will it be put back into the bottle? Well done James Reynolds and the BBC for giving some balance and perspective on Beijing '08 despite the barrage of hostile comments from over zealous patriots. Peace and goodwill to all the people of the world and freedom to Tibet.
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Let me tell you our next worship: the space walk.
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Hi james! is that all you've come up with as a conclusion?
I've been reading through your colleagues article first and I'm sorry but have to say a bit shameful and dissapointed in ur final article?
Especially for you, being in China for over 6 months or so, apparently you haven't learned much.
A country with no God? erm... please honestly ask yourself, do you think you are being biased by saying this?
Having read your articles since your first post in May, I think i finally have no choice but to give up mate. I think it's a real total waste of time of trying to convince you to take a positive way of understand the Chinese. In fact, I really wanted to ask you why you have chosen this job? To make you become famous? Well.. congratulations because I think you're doing very well in this part.
" A BILLION PEOPLE HAVE TO FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO BELIEVE IN NOW.."
er I'm sorry.. although I don't want to but your final sentence really disturbs me. I hope I got it wrong but in my understanding, as a Chinese, I felt exactly the way like I'm treated like a brainless fool. I have no idea where you come up all the biased image on China and its people, but apparently after all your work in China and through the cities, it just doesn't help.
And I think most of the Chinese people who had been posting their comments here on this block kept doing that becuse they thought there was a single percentage they could change James' thinking. But unfortunately it just would not happen.
And I would not care anymore. But it has been a pleasure and after all I still have to thank BBC to give me an opportunity to express my opions, just like in any of the other forums on the chinese websites (Although James still think that chinese people do not have the right to do so and would be caught) ; haha..
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James, you really should watch the game itself before jumping to conclusions -- I understand that as a bbc journalist, it is your duty to twist any news related to China, but to portray 1.3 billion Chinese in the above manner is just wrong. The reason people were unsatisfied with him was because before the last dive, he was 30+ points ahead of the runner up. That is a legitimate for people to be disappointed. If he has anything descent in the last dive, he would have won. Clearly he was air-headed and thought he had the gold. Nobody considers it a tragedy. If anything, I'd think it is a tragedy that as the inventor of Table tennis, the Brits have never won a world title.
Please, took off your colored glasses for once and show some respect to the Chinese people.
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Oh, James.
You said In a state which has no God", have you ever investigated this?
In China, there are tens of millions of Muslim , Buddhists and Christans. The total number are larger than the whole population of "Great" Britain (in Chinese eyes, it's not great definitely).
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except the last sentence.(the chinese will always like sports and worship the Olympics)
this is the most righteous article you written of ur china travel.
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Hello,how are you!???I'm a Chinese college student.Nice to see your blog here.A tiny mistake in your essay that I think I should point out.When it comes to Yang Jiechi,you should say Mr Yang,not Mr Jiechi.Because Yang is the family name in China,and Jiechi is the given name.We put family name before given name in China,that is totally different from Western countries.Also in Japan,Korea,family name is put first.
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Haha. James, I don't think a billion people know that they need to believe in something or someone. The biggest issue is that China has lost faith on 'belief'.
China indeed needs a spirit to comfort and lead.....don't all country need?? don't the Great Britain need??
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"When China Has Elections?" Whatever happened to when the USA has real elections? It is easy to criticize China without taking into account that Cuba has a dictatorship, Venezuela and the USA have dictatorships [although they are dressed as a democracy].
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How long have you been in China, James?
How can you not see any freedom of religions there? Are you talking about the china 30 years ago when you were still being breast fed.
i don't think you have any contacts with chinese people even you live in China. you don't even speak any chinese and how can you speak for them as if you are one of them?
A billion people will believe or not believe in anything they choose, who are you to suggest that they are spiritually empty?
You irrogant brits, it's your term to be picked on four years later, please be perpared!
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WOW, none of the comments are out yet. I bet majority of them are bad for James. BBC editors, be honest with our comments. Show them. If James has the right to write something so insulting, readers have the right to express their feelings. This is then called a fair game and fair media.
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China's leaders sat in the front row with the IOC President Jacques Rogge. --- everyone can see that, James R.
On each of their desks was a pair of binoculars and also a pen and paper --- Are you so bored? So UK tax payers are sending you all the way to Beijing to see whether they have got pen and paper?
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When will this censorship stop?
House rule: message will be removed if they are considered likely toAre considered likely to disrupt, provoke, attack or offend others
Question: what will you do if the blogs by the host are considered likely to disrupt, provoke, attack or offend others? Will you allow this kind of blog to be published?
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"If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic."
is this true? Quite a few of my friends from college, even the ones who grew up in Beijing, didn't really care about the games. Many adults didn't care about it either. they weren't treated like an atheist from the bible belt.
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Can the Chinese government tone down their Chineseness?
BBC Panorama just featured a program on the ongoing debate on Britishness. The British government has recently replaced the worrying 'multiculturalism' with a new rhetoric for 'Britishness'. The issue is fraught with controversy. Despite the rising nationalistic/racist BNP party, the ordinary Brits find it very hard to agree on what words they can use to define themselves as being British.
After the Olympics, there are more talks about 'pride' and 'not talking the country down' in Britain. If the Confucian philosophy of 'harmony', 'solidarity' or 'self-effacement' has brought some impact on a country which values freedom and democracy, is it time for the Chinese government to loosen up a bit and let its subjects develop diverse personal dreams as well as paying homage to one national dream?
The good thing is that today's Chinese ruling elites are much more educated and broad-minded than the first generation of revolutionaries, many of whom hardly spoke correct Chinese or indeed were literate enough to think logically.
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according to ur moderation explain,this blog is not for children for sure, so why All posts are pre-moderated?what are u scared about?and what kind of freedom here we have in uk while u blar-blar about the freedom in china?another double standard? don't embarrassed urself like this....i feel so disappointed.
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I cannot understand why BBC will contect the 2008 Olympics with religion,we think it is just sports ,which, persons in the world can contest together.
--a chinese
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after watching how Boris Johnson compared to those Chinese officials at the closing ceremony, I seriously think 2012 is gonna be more fun.
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James you do no know China.
The closing ceremony is a mess. Beckham's kicking is unintelligible. Songs sung were stupid, with some hint of one night stand invitation.
the 'sacret fire' was put out by 'turning off the gas valve'. He is honest this time.
Chinese calling the torch 'sacret fire' is not because the fire is sacret, but we need to have a double syllable word ( two charactors). 'fire' in chinese is single syllable so we need to add an adjective to it. it is all simple.
and, the biggest topic of the night is not beckham, but Australian WNBA player hugging Yao Ming. People are saying that Yao will be punished by his wife back home.
I love London though. Good luck London.
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Don't worry, James Reynolds, they are a nation survived thousands of years without your God. Go to talk to them or if you are too lazy, go to read their blogs. They are ready to have fun at London 2012.
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The Olympic was a success and there is no doubt in it. Not to mention the fact that China won the most gold medals.
There was little or no disturtbance by the anti-China elements during the games.
Nor was there any probem reported by the international journalists regarding their access to what they need.
Nor the Beijing air, which was considered by the reporter of the "Jame Reynolds' China" as the most feared phenomenon that "definitely is going to worry the authorities and athlets" did not at all turn out to be so. It did not seem that athletes were worried at all.
Nor was there any report of health hazard caused by Beijing air quality.
So now, it is the UK to live upto the standard that Beijing has set. Good Luck!
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Yes, it's over and you may go back London, Congratulations! you don't need to stay in a city as you said seriusly polluted and no human right. Let us be who we are, you may care your own business. We chinese people will be grateful for it. It was a noisy Olympics and thanks god it's over. Thanks for your leaving and let us enjoy quiet time.
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One thing forgot, you may leave with a little disappointment. No protestation or terrorist attack happened which you were highly expecting during the past 17 days. So sorry for that. But don't give up, keeping your expection. You still have chance when someday Beijing or another city in China award the host city again in several decades you may continue your hard work.
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Well James, we belive the govt and more over, we believe ourselves: one of the brightest and hardest working nation in the world.
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Why is James Reynalds's blog moderater so afraid of comments?
It takes three days for comments to be carefully censored and many of them including mine were removed without giving any reasons. I just receive an email being told James' blog was closed and suggest me to switch to other blogs, which shows the professionalism of BBC.
Since it is just James' personal blog, why cannot readers give their comments freely?
If James can say anything about 1 billion people freely, why cannot one person say something about his blog freely? That is ridiculous. Is BBC mangaged by " China Communist Party"?
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American sports have made much of being winners at all costs, of being the best and so on. This week the USA is having great difficulty in dealing with the fact that they didn`t get the most gold medals this time. Hence the medal tables now counting total number of medals and not showing the number of golds won, so as to still show USA on top. For a nation where being first, winning, has been an article of faith held with religious conviction this Olympics has badly shaken American (self) belief.
For the host country it`s about national pride and presenting the best image they can of themselves. For many of the TV audience what they saw of Beijing this summer will influence their view of China for years to come. It was as true for Sydney in 2000 as Beijing; both first time hosts, both stepping out onto the world stage. Being able to host an Olympics is a statement that a country has arrived at first world status. It requires wealth, infrastructure, technology and social cohesion; and they are judged on how well they deliver. You should also know by now the importance of `face`. For China it was also about escaping their past, being proud of where they are today and looking forward to a better future.
If the organisation of London`s games go badly, if the reviews of the world`s press are luke warm or damming then our reputation and pride will suffer. Tourism and investment too.
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Just had a chance to look through all the comments on James' concluding article.
James may not be a perfect journalist for everyone in every nation but he is definitely a respected one who has a wealth of experience ranging from Middle East to South America and who has the enormous courage and resilience to work in sometime very perilous situations.
For people of a serious and squeamish disposition, it might be a bit difficult to appreciate the British banter. But can't you see how he also MAKES FUN OF London Mayor and Beckham? The caricature of the Mayor's distinctive 'hair' and Bird's Nest persented in the UK media is even more sarcastic.
The Chinese media is nowhere near such state of art that can be applied to important government officials.
Is there a Chinese aphorism called' tui ji ji ren' or 'ji suo bu yu, wu shi yu ren', which tells the benefits of thinking from other people's perspectives?
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Believe in the all mighty dollar.
It's the way to get respect for China.
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I can't believe it! I broke the house rule? All I pointed out was the Mr. R. did not do *any* research: he made the basic mistake of calling China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi Mr. Jiechi instead of Mr. Yang. It is so laughable that he didn't even know which one is the sir name for the foreign minister. I will not go further in commenting his complete lack of understanding and respect of the culture.
BBC censorship is incredible!
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How can James Reynolds be the BBC2's Beijing correspondent if he doesn't even know basic Chinese naming conventions? The Chinese Foreign Minister, Yang Jiechi’s family name is Yang and should be addressed as Mr Yang and not Jiechi. Is this BBC sloppiness or simple ignorance on the part of Mr James?
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I suggest everyone here read Beijing Blog on msnbc, which gives a better understanding of China because the writer talked with ordinary chinese.
James, you need to learn to improve your journalist skills.
To the house police, it only shows how biased you are to remove this comment again.
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I posted a few comments suggesting other western sources who give a better and fairer report of China. They were removed by the house police.
Free media? Is that a joke or hypocricy?
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Sacred ceremony ends Beijing Games?
then, at the same level.after that 8mins, can i say :
'sordid showcase starts London/Soho Games?
how you gonna feel?
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Hello James,
It's astonishing that you are not drowned by 1.3B patriotic hooligans' saliva. I thought you would not have survived 2 days into the Games!
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Well, they don't need to find something else to believe in - the CCP always wants them to believe in the leaders and that everything the leaders do is good for the country - Olympics is just a part of this only "religion" that the leaders would want you to believe in.
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BBC 's net sencorship is unbelievable. I posted some comment against western media and found myself gaged. I am trying to post my message here again and hopefully it can pass.
To my fellow Chinese. Keep an eye on western media thuggery post Olympic.
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To Post 86 :
China won the nmost gold medals and every want knows that.But how to chinese manage to won this much gold medal.
Here is how :
The only mother on China's team, Xian Dongmei, told reporters after she won her gold medal in judo that she had not seen her 18-month-old daughter in one year, monitoring the girl's growth only by webcam. Another gold medalist, weightlifter Cao Lei, was kept in such seclusion training for the Olympics that she wasn't told her mother was dying. She found out only after she had missed the funeral.
Chen Ruolin, a 15-year-old diver, was ordered to skip dinner for one year to keep her body sharp as a razor slicing into the water. The girl weighs 66 pounds.
"To achieve Olympic glory for the motherland is the sacred mission assigned by the Communist Party central," is how Chinese Sports Minister Liu Peng put it at the beginning of the Games.
Americans spoke of fun, the Chinese were on a 'sacred mission.
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"In as state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion, together with its own cathedrals, rituals, and sacred flames,. Everyone in China was meant to be a worshipper. If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic.
...
A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in."
For *** sake, I can't find anything more shallow than this.
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Hey james!
Can you just pack your stuff and go home and leave us in peace? Yes it's over and i feel releaved because not it also means an end with your block. I don't have to waste my time here to read someone on a worldwide media reporting some nonsense, biased information about my country.
I wonder if this block will still be shown and whether you will ever read these words. But it's sad to say that after such a long time you've been spending in China, you just don't learn and you will never become a successful reporter not only on China but on any other country which is having a different culture than yours.
The things that you write about us is just so ridiculous. Not only chinese in China, but so many chinese overseas are protesting against you and your employer as a whole. And don't forget all the Chinese Overseas, they have the same access in western media. And you still think that o yes, the poor chinese lads, all brainwashed.
You just wouldn't let go every single opportunity trying to put a bad image on the chinese or make us sounds like a fool.
Suggestion: Come to Hong Kong, apply for a job in ATV, TVB, Hong Kong I-Cable or any media in hong Kong. Then, you will know what REAL professional reporting is. If you don't know , let me teach you, Reporting is all about - reporting the Truth! FACT; MOST UPDATED and NON-biased.
You - Mr Reynolds.. unfortunately does not succeed to be a professional journalist.
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James,
I have wondered why you often write stuff with facts twisted (or carefully selected "facts" ). Today, I think I have the answer. From the psychological point of view, I think you must be really jealous of China and its people. I know no journalists like you.
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To whinejunkie.
"The ceremony was an on stage real-time show, do not try to compare it with a pre-recorded film/CD."
Some info for you. please read Tony Jones August 24 2008 article Great Olympic Musical Deceptions of Ourtime. Published on The Age (Australia).Sydney symphony orchestramimed key parts of its performance at the opening of the Sydney Games in 2000. It was Melbourne's musician's perfect work pre-recorded to help sydney's musicians out. More than that, all musicians involved had to sign confidentiality agreement. The secrets had been truely well kept for 8 years. You can compare Sydney games' organiser with that of BeiJing games. The Beijing organiser disclose the secrets themself well the sydney organiser had musicians sign confidentiality agreement. Who is more honest? Do you believe the real time on-stage show stuff? Do you know how many times you have been cheated?
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Hehe,
BBC needs to check James is really living in China or he is now at another planet, for example, moon.
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Hi, Mr James,
(As 'Mr Jiechi')
there is nothing wrong for Chinese people to be enthusiastic about Olympic Games.
If you don't have passion for Olympic Games, fine by me.
However, please DO NOT disrespect those who do. By doing so you also despise Olympic spirit.
I bet your government would wish that British could have the same ''Olympic belief''
so that London 2012 could be as successful as Beijing 2008.
I think Chinese Communist government loves you and your articles,
because you are good at creating anti-BBC
Chinese.
you are not a British Communist, are you?
why did you do such a big favour to Chinese Communist government by making Chinese people so angry at BBC and BBC journalists.
After watching BBC's 'fair' report of torch relay, Tibet riot and reading your 'excellent' articles,
a billion people will now have to find something else- (another media but not BBC) to believe in.
by the way, my grandmother who lives in GuangXi province (China) is a Chinese Christian and she goes to local church on Sundays- freely!
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The BBC's censorship is worse than China's now? Wow... its incredible! Yes and as many have said, James' mistake on 'Mr Jiechi' - the worse possible thing ever. Shows that James has NO Chinese knowledge at all what so ever. And about the Olympics being sacred. Sacred you say? Not really. Its more like enthusiasm. We don't pray to the Olympic Gods. And there are no Gods? Theres Guanyin?
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Oh and James you forgot to mention quite alot of things about Boris. He was very sloppy. Kept on fidgeting, putting his hands in his pockets. He didn't even do his research and be curtious enough to put on a red tie! Jacques Rogge did! Oh... and he really should've buttoned up his blazer. Need I say anymore? Yes, you forgot about being critical about the British part of the closing ceremony. And David Beckham? I think the Chinese citizens would prefer Wang Leehom (his surname is Wang if you're still confused Mr Reynolds). I'm sure I heard louder cheers from the crowd when the Leehom, Rain and several other famous singers came on.
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"The biggest cheer of the entire night came when beckham rose up...." ??
Everyone who has watched the closing ceremony knows it isn't biggest cheer.
How a fake report it is!
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I've noticed that some are not happy with the commentaries here by Chinese readers. Yes they feel offended and defensive towards James' remarks and bite back. Isn't it normal? While you judge others and they judge back? Do you expect people to nod at what they do not like at all?
Sorry thing is this blog is swept with Chinese. Do not forget they do not represent Chinese people, but only the portion of Chinese who cares and reads BBC.
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Revealed: Sydney Olympics faked it too
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/revealed-sydney-olympics-faked-it-too/2008/08/26/1219516425771.html
"Western media shows its ugly face"
John Garnaut
http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2008/08/21/1219262408623.html
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to goonercow #106
One suggestion: if you think you are wasting your time reading this blog on this biased, hostile little website, why don't you just spend your time watching/reading/getting your news from your favourite Hong Kong/Chinese media instead?
It's interesting how some people keep reading something they don't like and at the same time moaning about it.
What I think is the 'fairness' and 'balance' (to some people anyway) that many Chinese or Hong Kong media apparently show is just an attempt of not offending (powerful) people. The cost this is the lack of perspective and critical depth in their reporting. The authorties are successful in getting people to believe their heavily censored media are truthful and unbiased. It's like 'cooking a frog in warm water', you know what I mean.
I find many of the comments here just totally dismiss everything James says by saying he's biased and ignorant. It's frustrating to see some people just dismiss what they don't like to see as worthless and refuse to engage in any rational discussions.
I'm getting an impression of some Chinese people just cannot stand alternative perspectives and comments. Why are there so many people demanding James to get out of China??
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A popular mentality: others have done it wrong too, so we're right to do it wrong!
Instead of sloppyness, what I see from Boris Johnson is light-heartedness, cheerfulness and good humour. I thought many Chinese people once said Olympics is a party that people enjoy themselves. I don't see a hint of joyfulness in many Chinese officials attending this 'party'?
Or perhaps the Olympics is so sacred, as James said, that makes some people look solemn and nervous?
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yauchunwan #115
If you've been brainwashed, you're brainwashed. It doesn't matter what kind of media exposure you have afterwards when you've left your country. People choose what they want to believe (of course from what's available to them only).
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I am back, writing from Norway. Norwegians are friendly and respectful regardless of the skin color. Talked to some Chinese immigrants (a good size number living here) and they confirmed my suspicion that they love it here, no Chinese spies and police to worry about, and no corrupt officials to grab their land and savings.
Re. BBC moderator, their system is not that much better in terms of openness, but I can also see the difference between this blog and others - the bloggers are much more civil to each other, most probably is due to the moderator's control. One other blog from U.S. media had some Chinese bloggers suggesting violence in London in the next Olympic, supposedly in jest as confessed in a later posting after being confronted. There were other pretty vitriolic postings towards the West in general. It came down to some provacateurs from the west fighting with the majority angry Chinese bloggers. There was very little of substance in the end.
I have to disagree with James about the Godless China, but that the Chinese has adopted the Olympic God lately. The Godlessness is only true in terms of organized religion free from the government's control. The majority of Chinese while not believing in one particular God in the traditional sense, they are in the pursuit of other gods, a money god , Mao's replacement as the all knowing national God - CCP. The Olympic God will fade soon enough and the money God and Mao's replacements will reign supreme. They will receive the unquestioning faith and woriship from the Chinese populace. The more truth Chinese reads from the Western media, the more they throw their support to their CCP gods.
I would add also that our U.S. President Bush will soon find himself standing on the ground as an ordinary citizen. The West is wary of the power of governments, thus it is to be monitored and criticized unceasingly, much unlike China and that of the views Chinese hold.
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I would like to thank dear James for all the effort on covering Beijing Olympics for the past few months. I enjoyed reading your posts very much and appreciate your growing understanding towards China. I do like your humorous style. Apologies for some overreated comments before,by me or by my fellow countrymen. :)
btw, will you do a post to summarize your general impression of your stay and the debates here? would really love to see that...
Look forward to your further reports.
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Now that the Games have ended, Chinese leaders cannot quite say, 'Mission accomplished.' While China's achievement is worthy of genuine esteem, its efforts to gain a full measure of international respect and real 'great-power' status will not succeed until it matches its new economic and military power with a certain essential moral force. That, in turn, requires a society and a leadership that seek to be exemplary in all ways that make human beings more human, including respect for truthfulness, openness, tolerance and the people's right to disagree with their government.
China's leaders and people will continue to feel a certain gnawing, inchoate sense of deficiency and incompleteness in their quest for global respect until they find the strength to begin addressing the crucial, but elusive, issue of making China an ethical, as well as an economic and military, power.
For a country steeped in millennia of Confucianism, the need for ethical leadership should be clear.
It is beyond question that China can say it has hosted the most expensive Olympics ever and, also the most rigidly controlled. Yet what planners in Beijing miscalculated is that no matter how well you teach performers to smile, the strain behind the lips is still detectable.
The near-hysterical drive by Chinese leaders to put on the biggest, most spectacular sporting event ever, [as in nuvo rich]and to engineer a generation of Chinese medalists regardless of the financial or human costs, is both known and rather more disconcerting to the outside world than convincing.
If it was Beijing's intention to prove China's greatness via the Games, what it has demonstrated instead is the fragility of its ego.
Looking ahead to 2012: The best thing London can offer the world after Beijing is something truly different. It should show that an international sports festival does not have to be cloyingly chauvinist or stupefyingly expensive. That means scaling back on everything not central to sport by telling the International Olympic Committee that these games belong to London and to London alone.
There should be a simple and dignified opening, dedicated to sport, not to the United Nations. There should be no tedious medals ceremonies, no flags and anthems, no ZIL lane, no fat-cat expenses and no waffle about one dream, one peace, one world. The London games should be a festival not of nationalism but of sport.
Sorry if you disagree but that is what the rest of the world is saying. Course you may never know it because of your governments blocking of web sites, but this site may stay around for a while.
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#124. You said, in relation to banning medals, national flags and anthems from future Olympic Games: "sorry if you disagree but that is what the rest of the World is saying".
Really? Is that true? What sources are you quoting from?
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James, you wrote:
In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion - together with its own cathedrals, rituals, and sacred flames. Everyone in China was meant to be a worshipper. If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic.
It all ended tonight with a suitably sacred ceremony in the Bird's Nest Stadium........
Then came the final moment of a decade of work. The Olympic flame (always known here as the "sacred flame") was put out.
To your mocking:
I can see that the point for you to mock is the word sacred. However, it reflects almost all the cultural differencies between your background and Chinese people's background.
You must have learnt that in Chinese they call so called sacred flame as "sheng huo". Sheng in Chinese originally means those people who are perfect in their behavior and then set examples for other people. Confucius is seen as one of Chinese shengs. Chinese people spread sheng's usage to other things to name these things' perfection. As we all can find the clue that perfection means respectful and unarguable quality. From this aspect, sheng is similar to saint in English, and intresetingly even in pronunciation. However, the biggest and should never be ignored fact is that sheng has no any religional roots, unlike saint and sacrament which always can be traced back to Christianity.
I have to say that China has never actually been in any single period of monotheism in their more than 5000 years history, although many kinds of religions were once and some are still popular in the country. Some academics would argue that panthesim and polytheism are actually atheism. Chinese people are actually atheist traditionally and this does not just happen after Marxism came into China. When England challenged the Pope under Henry VIII, Chinese as whole traditionally and culturally always avoid to share political powers with religion in its whole history.
Besides, I don't know if you noticed that Chinese always call Olympic Flame as Sheng Huo in Chinese language since China came back Olympic Games in 1980s. However, maybe they call it sacred flame in English only this time but there is nothing that they want to play up the improtance of Beijing Olympic and play down other Olympic Games in history. I think Chinese people just want to continuely show the respects they already have in their mind toward Olympics, and are trying to transfer such feeling more accurately in English. They might think Olympic Flame in English is somehow too plain to express their feeling toward the flame and their happiness to be the host of that flame. Unfortunately, Chinese people failed something. When chosing the word sacred based on their simple wish to stress their feeling toward Olympic Flame without little clue of the word's religional background and troubles may caused, they might also ignore the plainness of the phrase Olympic Flame may have just reflected one of Olympic spirit which is set on a meaning beyond different religions, cultures and nations. In this context, the plainness is something improtant itself, that is populism, or democracy, or spirit and dignity from ordinary people.
Sacred is just one word, but it bears too much. When you wrote "In a state which has no God" to set up your basis to mock with the word sacred, you have fallen into a trap of cultural differency yourself. You are mocking with this word on Chinese and China including their governement together, no matter you are not aware of this because you have been in China for only one year, or you are just happy with this like you are falling into a net trap but you think it is somehow a hammock under coconut palm on a tropical island, it is offensive toward Chinese ordinary people.
To mock is a culture in Britain. BBC and other channels have got many shows particularly for mocking. This is a sense of humour of good, to some extent. Privately, many Chinese people do so themselves, as you might be able to find in China. However, there are certain things that British and Chinese people both avoid to mock on although the contents would be different. When Chinese try to learn not to ask west people's age and income etc., why you cannot try a little bit harder to avoid mocking on those might make Chinese people feel offensive. This is a matter of respect. People from any cultural background need clothes of politeness, and time.
I am not going to deny that some Chinese might be less keen on populism and understanding the relationship between it and democracy. Except for those political reasons you can see, there is also a cultural issue in it. Populism and democracy originally rised from the anti-monotheism regime movement in Europe. However as I said above, there was not any monotheism in Chinese history for people to compare with their own states. As a result, there must be something different in Chinese people's mind when thinking about populism and democracy from western culture. If you think democracy is something universal, then we both have to clean up the possible bias based on particular cultures in it before it can become the real universal thing for different people.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
James, I can see that the point for you to mock is the word sacred.
You must have learnt that in Chinese they call so called sacred flame as "sheng huo". Sheng in Chinese originally means those people who are perfect in their behavior and then set examples for other people. Sheng has no any religional roots.
I have to say that China has never actually been in any single period of monotheism in their more than 5000 years history, unlike you who might still be ruled by monotheism thinking actually no matter how you deny this. Chinese people are actually atheist traditionally and this does not just happen after Marxism came into China. When England challenged the Pope under Henry VIII, Chinese as whole traditionally and culturally always avoid to share political powers with religion in its whole history.
Besides, Chinese always call Olympic Flame as Sheng Huo in Chinese language since China came back Olympic Games in 1980s. Maybe they call it sacred flame in English only this time, but there is nothing that they want to play up the improtance of Beijing Olympic and play down other Olympic Games in history. Chinese people just think Olympic Flame in English is too plain to express their feeling toward the flame and their happiness to be the host of that flame. Unfortunately, by using the phrase sacred flame they are falling into the trap of west world's politics and related journalism, such as the one you have. Obviously, A net trap for Chinese is seen as a hammock under coconut palm on a tropical island to you, then.
To mock is nothing about "anti-social behavior". Everyone likes intreseting conversation. However, not to do the same thing as your colleague did on recently happened Madrid plane crash.
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@ manpret:
The moon is not a planet, it's a satellite. I think that James is most likely on Mars.
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Everyone, lets not bully James into a corner. God forbid we might push him so far that he'll never write a article again... At the end of the day, it's been facinating to read everyone's views and opinions. I personally thought the games were great, loved every second of watching it on telly. Lets hope (fingers crossed) that James, with the aid of his editors will do a better job of reporting non-biased, semi skewed views to the masses of loyal readers that the BBC has built it's recipical trusting relationship with. Good luck to everyone! Cheer up, it's only one bloke who's missed the point of a few issues.
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I think James is still angry being food poisoned at the Chinese restaurant. That is why he is still writing to damage China.
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@Corvus4u
You have said it all and said it well. Nothing more could be added.
Thanks for the posting.
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Board moderation is required on the net to keep the discussion on topic and to stop flaming [a term I became well acquainted with on the precursor of the net in the mid 1980s.] I have been on unmoderated boards but now do not participate on them because they become infested with aggressive rude people, always have from the nets beginning back in the 1980s. Anyone comparing moderation with government sponsored censorship as practiced in PRC is to the free world a government troll, or someone who is wofully informed.
The Chinese posting here are not the common person. they are people who are on the top of the society, though many will claim otherwise. There are no farmer peasants from the country who make up the vast bulk of China's population. The people posting are the urban people who are both educated hence their ability to understand english and making money hence their ability to get on the net to voice the governments propaganda.
Many of the comments posted here are right out of the government controlled press in PRC showing little original thinking. However this is to be expected from a country that has massive government sponsored information control which the free world knows about. No, there are many in the free world who can not think for themselves either and there is much posted on the net that is not true. It takes an educated person who wants to, and values truth and freedom to sort it out, sad to say, that is not possible in PRC today.
All the postings trying to confuse the issue of the two girls in to opening ceremony is rather humorous. The free world is not concerned about the prerecorded nature of the performance. The free world sees China's as wanting to present a perfect image to the world and the complete government control as the issue. In an event that glories the personal best of people to have a composite person put on display and not being able to recognize the difference is at the heart of the issue. It would be the same thing as having an athlete representing a country that does not qualify and when information is found that disqualifies them the controlling government removes the information. And, YES, the free world knows about this event, beleaves it happened [because a free press reported it and has the documents] and it will never go away. That is the lasting legacy of these Olympics. th
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Aren't the British terrific at passing off condescension and haughtiness as wry humor?
Let's get technical. In terms of grammar, "God" when capitalized, refers only to the one christian "God." Hence, any non-christian religion has no "God," but has many "gods." What exactly was your point again in mention that China is a country with no "God?"
Is it not possible that a people, a nation, can believe in better tomorrows for their people and a brighter future which is divorced from religion but based upon secular ethics, hard work, progress, and unity and faith in the nation? Rest assured, the Chinese nation, and the Chinese people, will have more to believe in than ever post-Olympics.
Ironically, it is the ambush tactics of protesters and biased Western media which has helped to push the Chinese people ever-deeper into the arms of and having faith in the nation and the Party. Congratulations for helping to breed a new, young generation of nationalistic Chinese who have recently seen abundant evidence of continued Western bias, mistrust, and dare I say, even envy and jealousy? A new generation of Chinese who have been show hordes of so-called activists who desire nothing more than to sand-bag the Chinese nation and people. The Party wins in this situation, and people who act before thinking are left scratching their heads. Let's see of they want to try any of that 3.14 stuff again ...
James, I'd sure like to believe that your article here was just typical British under-statement. But, somehow, I don't think so.
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It's always fun to read the comments after your article (that's interesting too). They can reveal so much and so little of how people think/understand. Well, I'll give you credit for being in the country and updating your blog despite all the negative comments. You cannot change the general opinions of the public through just one generation, so if you ever recieved or heard some nasty comments, you must not get too worked up but instead be generous and try to understand. Like you mentioned before, chinese seem to view themselves as victims most of the time (with good reasons if you just compare more recent history of UK and China), and this can cause some emotional responses if they feel foreigners are bad mouthing them. Also, despite all the effort, old habits die hard. Racism, insulting stereotypes and bias are no doubt still exist and have felt personally by many Chinese during their time abroad/online/talking to foreigners, so given any chance (especially while remaing anonymous) some will express their view and defend it. So for anyone who call them 'brainwashed' or 'secret commie agents', you will only anger them and make the ordinary chinese believe in their govt more. Also, the chinese govt is still made up of chinese people (not just one ethnic either) who were put their in the first place by the will of the majority, so by adding 'not the chinese people' after strongly critisizing their government does little to make them feel better.
As for this article. I liked your light humour here and there (unless you really mean and believe every word you wrote). It was also fun reading the numerous comments with correction to your 'surname' mistake, along with responses for the 'no God' statement. Like most of your previous blogs, my advice is, unless you don't mind the overwhelming critisizing comments each time, then lay off some humour, because some people will not find it as light hearted as you (due to culture differences etc). Anyway, I hope you'll learn something new in China everyday and try to be optimistic about the country if you want to get most out of it. That's my experience when travelling and living in other countries.
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Also, in response to Corvus4u and his comment on the opening ceremoney. The Chinese only put up a show according to the size of it's country. The traditions of the olympics with its ceremonies and flags have been their for many years, but if you don't like it, there are many other international sporting competitions that fullfill some of your requirements. Since the Olympics gets grander and more popular, I guess most people enjoy the big shows and the feeling of pride when their anthem and flag is raised in another country. The chinese are also not ignorant and naive people who believe in everything their government tells them, and they'll have to be living in a more isolated country (like north korea) to even starting to fullfill your stereotypes.
I have to say that this is a very eventful, interesting and spetacular (both the shows and the sports) olympic, from the torch to the end.
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To democracy 101. I think you are quite self conflicting. " No Chinese spies or police to worry about, no corrupted officials to grab their land or savings..." I left China when I was 30 years old and frequently go back to visit there is no such things. Ordinary Chinese do not worry about the police. Spies? What are you talking about? If the corrupted officials are ready to grab people's money and land all the time then why do you think Chinese believe in money god? Such a powerless thing? They would believe in a "power"god in stead?
Have you ever been to China at all? It does not supprise me that some hold such biased view against China and Chinese due to the fact that there is such a biased media. Go and visit China with an open mind and you are going to discover a fast developing country with a vast majority who are happy with their country's direction. ( I am not saying everyone is happy.)
Stop spreading rumors that Chinese are planning violence against London.
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James, you haven't done any blogging for 4,5 days now. What's going on? Are you OK, Buddy?
Come on, there's a lot of stuff in China for you to talk about, besides Olympics... Rich ancient culture, great mountains and rivers, 50 some friendly ethnic peoples, their distinctive customs .... etc. Don't tell me you haven't found any good things to tell your countrymen back home, and to the world.
Oh, if you 'really, really' want, you can talk more about Tibet, protests, corruptive officials... who cares.
Tell you the truth... reading your blog is very entertaining. Lot's of fun. I am not making this up.
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To heyone "119
well well.. what a surprise, i'm getting a 'reply'!
Dear friend, to answer your questions :
First, main reason I go to BBC is to check the premier league updates and if i got the time, i do that almost every day. Cos i need updates for the weekend bet! hehe.. and to be fair the updates and Lawro predictions are not bad.
Politics is just like a dessert for me after my main course.
Second, why I still read BBC since it is biased? Because they're talking about my family. And beause of the popularity, they are talking things about my family to the whole world. It's normal that I would like to know what your're talking about my family and I don't see there's a problem with this.
Third; Besides BBC website, I also read the following everyday:
a) Singptao.com (non government newspaper HK based)
b. www.the-sun.com.hk (merged with oriental daily) (HK Based - Private owned)
c) appledaily.com (HK based - anti - china - owerner was former ownder of Giordano) - easily you can find at least 10 anti-CHINA article per day - But i don't buy this one often, cos it is too biased; just during the olympics, the picturs and reports were the best among all hk newspapers.
d) sina.com (China based)
e) Cnn.com (US based)
f) Sky.com
other websites i also ocassionally visit: guardian.co.uk ; telegraph.co.uk ; www.the-sun.co.uk ; aljazeera.com etc
I'm not sure if you read Chinese, but if you take any of the above HK based newspaper, you can easily find over 2 dozen articles PER DAY which are critisizing China and its government.
However, how come everytime I read those articles that critisize the Chinese government, I would just feel it so difficult to defend but have to agree with the writer? It's because all the reporters that reporters about China bad things are the truth, non biased and having evidence backup. This article is picking on China's govt, and on the other article next it is talking about the good things , about the touching stories of the chinese heroes, who worked so hard to develop their countries.
Did you and James ever seriously thought how the Chinese people would feel after reading his comments?
Take a moment to listen to the below link -
A WESTERNER VIEW OF CHINA-
which i occassionally found on youtube. You might perhaps get some idea how millions of Chinese feel right now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQhDll880Y4
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sinced the days of Queen Victoria the Brits have called the Chinese people heathens, now you say that the Chinese have no god and are heretics.
it's no wonder that the Chinese gov't have to put down the western churches from expending and restrict the many religions from taking root in China.
and what ever China believes in it must be good for the Chinese masses, look at where they are now.
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Kick away the politics for a moment and let me give you a simple example.
Every weekend before the premier league starts; whenever their is a strong team against a bottom team; Let's say any of the Big 3 against Derby; Lawro Prediction of BBC will for sure predict a Win over Derby; any more articles talking about the matches? Yes, but not much..
HK media? Let's take the 3 big local newspaper for instance : You will easily find 6 to 7 articles which goes for the Big 3. But there will be always another 1 or 2 other commentators / writers who will go for Derby and get into a deep analysis with you. In total , there will be over at least a dozen of articles getting into a analysis over the 3 top matches , and another small prediction for all the other teams.
Besides, it will also predict and analyze all the main matches for the Italian, Spanish, German and Scottish + Dutch Leage, posting with the writer + beautiful pictures. BBC, Sky? unfortunately, I rarely see this wide spread of reporting. They only focus on their own league. Yes, they will have a brief after match report about perhaps the other leage leaders Barca, Real madrid etc..
Take the Euro Match Holland against Russia for instance. Whole the world (Including myself) predicted that Holland would sure win. All the chinese reporters were the same. But i remember on the day before the match, there was a reporter , a very small article on oriental Daily that wrote with the title " Russia might give the Dutch an upset" .
Different views and opinions reporting in a fair and backup reporting. Only for the sporting page it's already like this. Do I have to go further with the political area ?
Dfference between Chinese and British -
Chinese love to learn from different sources. All kind of different sources.
British / US - focus mainly on their own sources. Which I forgive, because you only know English. That's why we know more than you know about the world .
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#134 Corvus4u
You said "many of the comments posted here are right out of the government controlled press in PRC showing little original thinking".
May I know on what basis you said this, did you get any evidence to support your claim? I'm afraid you have just provided a good example of prejudiced, ungrounded and biased view which all these Chinese posters have been complaining about.
As for moderation, I am surprised to find some of my comments on BBC websites being convicted of "breaching house rules" even though I had not used any abusive words and I was only telling the truth. I once quoted my friend as an example to support my claim that many protestors did not know what they were protesting about. He, a British, told me one day that he had signed a petition for the release of the Burmese opposition leader, he was pretty elated that he had done so. But when I asked him what was the name of the opposition leader, he could not answer and asked me if she was "Kim Jung Il". So is it because of the truth that I cited was too unbearable to the British people that I didn't get it published on the ground of breach of house rule, even though I did not use any abusive words? Censorship happens everywhere, even in your so called "free world".
As for the two girls, may I know what you would say about the Sydney Symphony Orchestra miming to pre-recorded music played by Melbourne Symphony Orchestra in Sydney Olympic 2000? They'd kept it silent for 8 years whereas the Chinese organizers revealed the truth on their own initiative. Would you keep silent on their miming performance, or would you bash them as hard as the western world bash China? It is exactly this kind of double standard, injustice, hypocrisy and self-righteous that made Chinese people so angry and have kept them here to clarify misconceptions. To note, none of the Chinese organizers had ever said Yang was replaced was because she was ugly. These are the words unfortunately used by foreign journalists and posters.
"The near-hysterical drive by Chinese leader to put on the biggest, most spectacular sporting event ever ... regardless of the financial or human costs". May I ask if you were assigned to do a job, would you not do your best on the job? This is called professionalism, not hysterical drive. What did you expect China to do for the Olympics? A sloppy job? Would that make you happy? Are you suggesting that London should do a sloppy job and let the world to see imperfection? May I also tell you that in the past two years, all I heard from the reports was that the Chinese government advocated a frugal olympic games, that's why the Bird's Nest has no roof, because it's too expensive and it would use too much steel. You should also read an article on the British guy who had helped in the Opening Ceremony, there was always a budget which they had to observe. Do you still call this regardless of financial cost? Besides, much of the expenditure was on infrastructure of the city itself.
BTW, I am not funded by any CCP central bodies to post my comment here, I am just an ordinary Chinese who has her original thinking and I don't know the other posters here. And I am critical of the Chinese government and the people. What I detest is ungrounded and biased accusations.
A "free world" does not necessarily produce "free-thinking" people if the people are media-fed and simply adopt the commentator's opinion as facts of truth.
Will I get my comment posted or it is considered as violation of house rules again?
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I would also cite an example why Chinese people found the western world has not been fair to them. In the Telegraph, there is a "Have your say' under the report of the Miming girl in Beijing Olympic Opening Ceremony. Readers were welcome to bash China as much as they wanted, but there isn't a "Have your say' under the report of Sydney Symphony Orchestra's miming, and no "Have your say" under the report of David Davies splashing water to a Chinese female officials. No criticisms allowed!!
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FAKED!!!
The Australians faked their Orchestra performances during the 2000 Sydney Olympics. They used prerecorded set pieces and also material produced by the Melbourne Orchestra and portrayed it as their own.
It's taken 8 years for the australians to admit to their faking whereas it only took a few days for the little girl's miming to be declared by the Chinese.
Come on BBC, where's your attack on the Australians when you so readily and speedily attacked the Chinese.
Come on BBC, report on that!!!
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To *134 Corvus4u,
It is interesting how many times you mentioned 'the free world'.
Being a Chinese, I have lived in two different 'democratic' societies for many years. Having studied their languages and value systems based on different interpretations of 'democracy', neither of them inform that an individual can be really 'free' or 'individualistic' as in the fairy tale.
Rather, the pressure to conform to certain social rules and regulations is ubiquitous, abeit in different ways, whereever you live as a normal person.
No doubt the Chinese Communist government is much less open to criticism than other democratic governments. Equally true is that the Chinese major media is indeed often subject to the state control.
But, I honestly don't see how effective it is to use one version of dominant propaganda to attack another, as the way George Bush does to the rest of the world.
Democracy/individualism is as much a deeply entrenched ideology as Communism/socialism. By assuming there is 'the free world', unfortunately you are no less 'politicised' than some of the Chinese whom you yourself criticise.
Having said that, I am trying to convince myself that you meant to have constructive discussions here.
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I was a Led Zeppelin fan at one time, but can someone please enlighten me on the significance of the choice of "Whole Lotta Love" for the British 2012 announcement?
These are the lyrics:
===============
You need coolin, baby, Im not foolin,
Im gonna send you back to schoolin,
Way down inside honey, you need it,
Im gonna give you my love,
Im gonna give you my love.
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Youve been learnin, baby, I bean learnin,
All them good times, baby, baby, Ive been yearnin,
Way, way down inside honey, you need it,
Im gonna give you my love,
Im gonna give you my love.
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
(various mumblings and screechings with cool effects)
Youve been coolin, baby, Ive been droolin,
All the good times Ive been misusin,
Way, way down inside, Im gonna give you my love,
Im gonna give you every inch of my love,
Gonna give you my love.
Yeah! all right! lets go!
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Wanna whole lotta love?
Way down inside, woman,
You need love.
Shake for me, girl
I wanna be your backdoor man.
Hey, oh, hey, oh
Oh, oh, oh
Keep a-coolin, baby,
Keep a-coolin, baby.
===============
Not a jibe, just an honest question!
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It has now been revealed that Sydney Olympics faked it too 8 years ago. Sydney Symphony Orchestra has comfirmed that it mimed its entire performance at the opening of the Sydney Games in 2000. Even worse, it admits the backing tape was recorded, in part, by its southern rival, the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.
"Sydney Games officials had ordered pre-recorded backing tapes for the entire ceremony to ensure nothing could go wrong on Sydney's big night."
"This included Nikki Webster's solo, Under Southern Skies and Human Nature and Julie Anthony singing the national anthem."
"Nikki Webster's piece was recorded in July, almost three months before the ceremony."
So surprising that BBC got no information on this story several days after it had been revealed. Colour glasses?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/great-olympic-musical-deceptions-of-our-time-20080823-40z9.html?page=-1
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Dear James:
It is harder to find your blog,since the end of the Beijin Olympic games.I was suprised,there are still so many people are able to nevigate into your site. Keep up the good work though.
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#134. I think you have become a bit confused over your own arguments. Isn't it true that this blog is free for ALL to use? To claim that Chinese citizens commenting here are only the top of society providing Government propaganda is pretty wide of the mark and also a bit insulting. Remember that English is widely taught in China - which means that anyone can comment provided they have acquired the relevant skills, and this will now include many people over the age of 18.
I think the problem you have is that, as it turns out, most of the Chinese people who are commenting on this blog have not turned against their Government; they take pride in their country and its achievements and are proud of what was accomplished in staging the Olympics. BBC sports commentators commented on this latter aspect too; Sir Steve Redgrave said on BBC TV that he arrived in China two weeks before the Olympics and found everyone everywhere extremely helpful and enthusiastic.
You clearly have your own opinion on what the people should be thinking; the trouble is, it looks like they don't agree with you!
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heyone #121
I have not been brainwashed. Infact I was born in the UK and brought up here and have never lived in China. Because I am of Chinese I am able to look at both sides WITHOUT bias. And personally I just find that the Western media is truly corrupted and twisting everything about China.
About Boris Johnson, although the closing ceremony was meant to be fun, the speeches were still kept very formal. Officials are meant to have fun, but just because its fun doesn't mean that they have to lose the ties, dress unappropriately and talk unproper.
And the reason to why many Chinese people want James Reynolds to get out or at least stop reporting from China is because he lacks even the basic knowledge of the Chinese people. How can he report from a country in which he does not even understand the culture? The BBC are not meant to report from a Westerner's point of view, but to the whole world. However, his reports provoke anger tot he Chinese people, including British born Chinese citizens like myself.
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A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in.
hehe, James, What are you doing now?
Well, I see. I see. you now have to find something else to write to make a living.
I am so sorry for you! God Bless you!
:) :) :)
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Again - others have done it wrong, so we're right to do it wrong !!!!
It seems like it'd make some Chinese people feel better about their Olympics miming performance if BBC reported how the Australians messed up 8 years ago. James you should perhaps ask your chief editor to start reporting how the rest of the world managed to mess up, regardless of when that happened, just to make BBC look less 'biased'.
I wonder what these bunch of people would do if BBC reported this piece of 8-year-old news. Would they start to think it's OK to mime since the Australians did it or would they somehow forget the fact that the real singer girl wasn't allowed to perform in the stadium just because she doesn't look good enough?
I wonder how these people 'learn from history' as they always claimed they are able to do.
I think they should stop moaning and start learnin from mistakes. Bottom line is: you (or your government actually) DID mess up. So stop complaining about people talking about it an start learning how it could be done better.
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goonercow
I wouldn't be surprised by the completeness of the betting analyses that you would get from your local paper. No one would bother to censor them anyway, why would the government wanna censor the sport bettig sections of the paper?
I would be more surprised if you can get a bit of critical comments on Chinese politics on the Sun (hong Kong)or Oriental Daily and the likes.
I suspect you would probably get most of the doZen negative reports on China on the 'anti-China' Apple Daily.
Good that you still get a certain degree of press freedom in Hong Kong. But you just have to live with the fact that negative stories are more newsworthy and arguably more important. The majority of the Chinese people may be having a reasonably happy life, but don't those who are less fortunate, deprived of human rights need more of our attention?
A confident nation shoud be able to cope with negative publicity and learn from mistakes rather than just dismiss all its problems as insignificant, simply because of the fact that the rest of the world is 'hostile' and 'biased' to have exposed these problems.
Self-censoring is abound among Hong Kong media and you know that. Do you want it to go the BBC way or the Chinese way? Or you are actually fine with the Sun and Oriental Daily ways?
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Come'on, comparing Sydney Olympic using recording tape and the little girl's lip sych is comparing apples and organges, earth and mars. The difference is that there is a little girl here who got rejected because of her looks - too chubby and has crooked teeth (not my opinion) and there is the lip sync one who has been told she can't sing and so she has been taught to accept cheating as a way of life. Both girls got hurt in this stupid decision by the perfection obsessed Chinese organizer. The Sydney one is for efficency, in case of snafu's - not for perfection, but in case of big messed up in sound.
@onjournalism,
I agree we all to a degree are not completely free. There are laws we have to abide by, social mores to consider, psychological conditioning, cultures, family influence. But, what we have left, that is as a citizen in a free society, I mean a CITIZEN, we can have a voice to object or agree with the way our government is conducting business. We can expose the inefficiencies of our government without going to jail or be tortured, mock our heads of state, eject our ruling party with out votes. But, that is not to say we can use violence. We as citizens of a free society agree in general to live under the rule of law. This is what free means in most Western society, with personal choices not part of the arguement.
Assimilation in a foreign country takes more than a few years. The easiest and fastest change takes place in personal preferences for food, clothing, language, social mores, consumerism, life style - all can happen within a matter of a few years. After that it is a much harder journey as one struggles against cultural misunderstanding, context in language and not just straight forward news reporting type of language usage, in personal communication of nuances. This is the stumbling block for most immigrants in their complete assimilation to the host society and so they form their own immigrant communities throughout their new adopted countries. I would take another generation before the assimilation is complete.
I met an American naturalized citizen from the Middle East who had lived in U.S. for over ten years. He talked of having seen a black police officer stopping a black driver on the street, with the officer's gun drawn. He asked, "I don't understand how this black officer can point his gun at his own people and was prepared to pull the trigger?" In this case the man has demonstrated that he is unable to breach the cultural gap of America even after ten years. It would be the same with "onjournalism" and others on this blog who claimed to have lived in the West but are unable to fully appreciate the idea of freedom and democracy as a social contract with the government under which we live.
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I find it intriguing as why james bothered to introduce himself.
Obviously that most of the bloggers are shallow and hollow when it comes to appreciating the internationally respected credentials(with exception of those who are out side china)? How can James expect Chinese to have a real knowledge of the out side world when their only window to the World is throw the Communist window!
Come on James it is unfair. you westerns (including America)literally invented every machine that is traveling in and through the sky, every vehicles that is rolling on the road, every machine that is traversing over the sea and under the ocean ,every electrical and electronic wonders that dominating the world, .From modern medical ,walking on the moon ,spinning satellites and weapons that is unequal. We developing countries are only coping. Imagine if you Westerns withdraw all your factories and business establishments!Where would china be? You had televission in 1930s,computer in 1940s.and Olympics since 776 BC-and modern from1900s.Now it is the developing countries turn . Move over James!! And I hope
Your Spanish and French is as good as we the bbc bloggers Englissi.
c.tashi NY
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@wonderfulness,
Yes, I have been to China many times. I was born a Shanghainese, with full sets of parents and ancestors being Chinese. But, before you dismiss my opinion as coming from a lesser Chinese, I can say that in honesty I live both worlds of the West and the East, by that I mean I have contact with and have an extended net work of Chinese friends and relatives. My opinion would be the balance of seeing both sides, East and West.
You had mentioned about not having heard of land grabs and corrupt officials stealing money from oridinary citizens. The reason is that you belong to the well-to-do class, living overseas but with your heart left in China, and so your sight is limited but your passion for China overtakes the awareness of reality that exists in the +700million Chinese. A recent BBC expose' showed the reporter being followed by Chinese spies during his interview with Chinese peasants in Quangzhou. While the spies were all around, no one dared to talk. Later, after ditching the government spies, the reporter was able to inverview a peasant while hiding behind some reeds, with the camera to the back of the peasant, and out in the fields. The peasant spoke of corrupt officials demanding money and threatening land seizures.
If only you would open your eyes and ears and reclaim your heart to the society where you are enjoying the privilege of freedom, you will be able to see what everyone else see. The Chinese bloggers like you prefer to see a tree instead of a forest.
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I feel so sick when i read this .....
Read what Germany what done ....
German broadcaster suspends Chinese worker
2008-08-29 03:12:26 GMT2008-08-29 11:12:26 (Beijing Time) China Daily
A Chinese woman working at Germany's DW-Radio has been suspended from her job following remarks she made in the media on human rights and other issues in China, the German press has reported.
Four days before the opening of the Beijing Olympics, Zhang Danhong, an editor with the German broadcaster's Chinese program, reportedly said that "The Communist Party of China has more than any political force in the world implemented Article 3 of the Declaration of Human Rights", referring to the Chinese authorities pulling more than 400 million people out of poverty.
Similarly, in a TV talk show in late July, Zhang reportedly said the Chinese government had done a lot to protect local culture in Tibet and criticized German Chancellor Angela Merkel for sapping relations with Beijing.
The German media is said to have reacted strongly to Zhang's remarks.
On Aug 11, German magazine Focus attacked Zhang as someone who was "courting" China's Communist Party. On Aug 20, the Berliner Zeitung newspaper quoted parliamentary representative Dieter Wiefelsputz as saying that Zhang's performance was a "catastrophe".
Two days later, the same newspaper confirmed Zhang's suspension from work.
Zhang, 42, was born in Beijing, studied German in Peking University and in Cologne, Germany.
She became an editor of DW-Radio's Chinese program in 1990 and was promoted deputy editorial director of the program in 2004, the broadcaster's website read.
Many in China have voiced sympathy and concern for Zhang after the incident.
"The case proves that those who chant human rights and freedom of speech everyday in the West are so hypocritical," a Chinese netizen wrote on major Chinese portal, Sina.com.
"The Cold War mentality, ideological biases, political prejudice, and sense of racial superiority these things are deeply rooted in some parts of the Western world. Luckily, China is not bothered by these," wrote another netizen.
"I have noticed related information and I have read the reports Zhang had done," China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said Thursday.
"We hold that the media should report under an objective and just principle."
Zhang and DW-Radio were not available for comment at press time.
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Boris' belly is too London! He needs a haircut though..
Why didn't I realize Beckham can be a promising big brother candidate in our sacred pagan time?
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Steven Spielberg decided to quit working as a director of the opening ceremonies, why did he quit? Not because of acceptable use of lip sinking as was done in the 2000 Olympics. Yes, the dubbing was reported at least in Australia [I read about it while in Perth]. Go to Google Archives for the stories, oops that is blocked/edited and in free a democratic China no less. Sorry about that, of course you could ask your democratic government to please unblock all sites like other democratic free countries do. Of course a free democratic government would do that for its valued citizens, and in fact a free democratic government would not have blocked the sites in the first place.
The draconian nature the PRC exhibited for their Olympics is what the free world dislikes and frankly is afraid of. Because if a country exhibits irrational behavior over a sporting event as China has done how can it be trusted in important matters? Countries failing to take this into account do so at their long term peril. During the Australia 2000 Olympics one of the many stunts pulled on the Olympics was during one marathon the runners were rerouted into a Pub. I doubt that would have been possible currently in China nor did it in any way detract from the Olympics. Was it out of government control yes, was it funny yes. Would the PRC have approved of it, how long would the perpetrators spend in jail for embarrassing China?
The differences in the 2000 and the 2008 Olympics were great. First of all Australian have a great since of humor about themselves so it is really impossible to poke fun at them or shame them. One standing joke is when immigration upon entering Australia asks you if you have a criminal record, your response can be “is it still required?” I doubt China would be that understanding as they blocked many from going to the Olympics something the free world does not like. And more to the point no one immigrates to China.
All non democratic countries would like to be called democratic. In fact I know few countries who would consider it an insult to be called democratic but the PRC is not democratic no matter what its brainwashed citizens tell the world or themselves.
One of the important points about correctly done brainwashing is that the victim does not know it has been done to them. It is kind of like asking an insane person if they are sane. They are incapable of making a rational decision, only a person outside the crazy persons reality can make a rational correct decision of sanity.
When I was in Nam I worked with Australian troops and they had the best outlook. An outlook that was based upon humor. So if Australians can laugh in those conditions just how do you insult them? And most importantly what difference does it make? The only important difference is that if someone decided they have been insulted and they then try to harm the insulter. Such childish games should be left to children and not played by adults. But they are precisely the games played by the PRC on its citizens and the PRC atemps to do it to the world at large.
Does the free world fret about what China thinks about China, no it does not, nor does it concern itself much about what China does to its citizens. Even if the citizens of China have forgotten [or more likely they chose to forget] what the PRC role was in the great famines and the Red Guard, the free world has not. The same government is in control and is not acting all that different. Just a new façade, abet a $43 billion obscene facade in a country that could have spent it on improving the lives of its citizens. But that is for Chinese people to decide. Or is it the PRC that decides? It is so confusing.
In 10 years will the 2008 Olympics have improved the lives of the citizens of China, it hasn’t in all the other countries that have hosted the Olympics, that is why London will not spend much on them, their citizens demand that the money be spent on more productive areas that trying to impress the rest of the world. And, a democratic government does what its citizens want or it is voted out, can you vote out the PRC government?
People from around the world want to live in London, not post Olympic China. I doubt many in the world would chose to live in China, they do not have the issue of illegal immigration which the free world has and a difficult issue that is. Their problem is just the opposite, Chinese want to get out.
It seems people vote where they want to live by trying to get into those countries. The people from non democratic countries are always trying to get into democratic free countries not the other way around, why is that I wonder? China [PRC] does not have an illegal population problem that all free democratic countries have, as in Western Europe, USA etc. In fact 12% of the population is the USA want to be in that horrible country so bad that they do so illegally. Most countries build fences to keep their people in, the USA is building a fence to keep people OUT! Imagine that, over 1 in 10 residents in the USA want to live there so bad they will do it illegally, does China have that problem? In the Los Angeles school system over 170 languages are spoken and taught in. The ballet is printed in over 28 languages for its citizens and yes you could if you were a US citizen get the ballet in your native language, likely it is all ready printed in it. How many Chinese ballets are printed in english? Consider yourself lucky in that respect, and yes some of those illegal people come from mainland China. How many Americans or Europeans [or anyone from a free country for that matter] are in China illegally? Why do you think that is? It is a very difficult problem keeping people from non free, non democratic countries out, who is it that keep trying to immigrate into those countries? Bet the PRC does not stress those figures or keep its valued citizens aware of those difficulties of the free world, does it.
PRC relies on the free worlds press to collect information it uses to condemn the free world with, but at the same time it deigns the free worlds press access to Tibet or any area it deems sensitive. These actions are universally condemned by the free world, always have, and always will. The free world will not trust the PRC based on its current actions not its rhetoric past or present.
And finally, I do not take any delight in typing the above, I have experienced PRC filtering in the past and likely will experience it in the future though in the past it had nothing to do with government or politics, it was involved in burial mounds of a historical civilization dating to around 2500 BC, hardly the stuff of current politics. No I do not perseverate over it.
Enjoy what limited freedoms you have at the moment because your democratic government may take them away from you and imprison you for using them.
Namaste
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Some british like this guy try to show their moral superiority through annoying others, by their "humorous" comments. Why not more focus on home issues, such as Iraq invasion, anti-social behaviors of teenagers, recessive economy, poor NHS, etc.?
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to pxx2002
The educated Chinese knew they were practicing confucianism like a religion, just like how the Muslims incorporate more of their religion into their everyday life than the Christians. Since the cultural revolution much of what Confucius preached was locked up like a skeleton in some obscure closet. Then China was caught up in the frenzy of making money to become the world power. People had no time to teach their children values of the old world. The present monotheism is the CCP and its doctrine of annexing Taiwan. If you come down to earth from your heaven, you would see that democracy means simple things like:
* When a teacher hits you over the head, you have the right to raise concerns.
* When you want to practice Fa Lung Gon to be more healthy and more peaceful, you shouldn't be taken away your precious organs and your life.
* When you want to object to the CCP of any rank, you shouldn't need to close your house door.
* When you read or listen to the news, you should have the most unbiased news. Please understand that journalists are not gods but if they did try to be, they deserve the respect. Only gods are perfect.
* When the Olympics was in preparation, you shouldn't be chased away from your home with little compensation.
* When you were (are) told as a little child that Taiwan is part of China and it is in your rights to show your revenge to the world by annexing Taiwan which is politically economically and culturally different from your country China, you should have the right to question the teaching.
* When you are taught you must go back with vengeance to hunt down your great grandfather's enemy, you have the right to think in the context of your time and that of your great grandfather.
Please don't get me wrong that the West should get away with "murder." But in the 21st centruy while most of the whites have never known of the opium wars especially with their Christian teaching to "forgive," how can they justisfy to your angry pounding accusations? Even Taiwan recently passed a law for children of debtor to be forgiven. This law of Taiwan is lay down on a hammock under coconut palm on the tropical island off the vast greatness of the Middle Kingdom. How can She let Taiwan steal away the limelight? Isn't She losing face.
The "going back with vengeance" tradition probably would only work within China but She is sick and tired of the old "closed door" policy. She wants to dance with the world and there are steps and cultures to learn and to be aware of.
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Perhaps the big problem is that some of us are too 'assimilated' into their own country to 'empathise' (not necessarily 'sympathise' or 'appreciate') other countries' political, economic and socio-cultural aspects of a different nature.
It is indeed difficult to see 'the obvious' and to think ' the taken-for-granted'.
PS wish James an enjoyable summer holiday and come back, safe and sound with renewed enthusiasm and 'fighting' spirits.
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This Olympic has boost China and blessed Tibet.
It reconfirmed the free world’s unflinching dedication to support H.H. the Dalai Lama’s nonviolence and international compassion believe.
Think!! If a drunken person commit’s a crime, what is the root cause of the crime?
It is the liquor. So when the avalanche of Chinese bbc loggers invariably express
overwhelming temper and mind boggling ignorance, it is the regime that is responsible.
Why must ordinary Chinese be hostile towards the Tibetans or the Westerns?
Any way here is why I can see eye to eye with the ordinary Chinese people:--
Now the curtain has come down, the fever has died down,
reality steps in to reclaim its position, the factories will recommence smoking,
Traffic will rule the roads, smog will englove Beijing,
people will sweat and shudder to encounter hunger and despair, More jobless
human scavengers than dogs will fill the street Conners of China, sons and daughters of the elites will go back to their studies to respective western countries, while the millions of Chinese children dream about a minimum education, ever encroaching giant cooperates will snatch lands, crush defenseless Citizens and buy corrupt officials, protestors are mercilessly thrown into the saliva dripping mouths of prisons, bright and able entrepreneurs will be sandwiched between the bureaucracy red tape and the greedy system, the regimes strangulation of the mediums is sure to resume, the voice of the intellectuals and true patriots will be silenced for good before the dawn breaks, window to the world will get replaced by the tainted window and the gap between theChinese people and the world will get wider and wider,Communist regime will say"business as usual".
So, what I am saying is that the out side world knows what the ordinary Chinese are going through. The world is much smaller than you think. The communist regine has isolated you long enough,so just see the World with your own God given eye.
C.tashi N.Y.
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@Corvus4u:
I enjoyed reading your post. You have it all covrered.
The only part I am not quite sure I could agree is that Chinese are brainwahsed. I think now that Chinese get to travel and study overseas, they are not as brainwashed. But, what they have is mass amnesia of their recent past, believing that money can buy them/China out of all problems. The older Chinese do not wish to remember because it was too traumatic to recall the traumas of the Communist's rule. The young generation do not believe that it was that bad, or are not even aware of the exent of the madness of the government. They believe China has changed and China will have no where to go but up. The truth is China has over 70 million people who are the underclass of China, working in harsh conditions to fuel the economy without the reward. Wonder how long this social condition can go on without an internal explosion.
These Chinese bloggers are fearful of this possibility and so they give their full support to their government in hopes that their gain will not be lost by another social turmoil. They prefer to give up freedom for $$$$$$. It is a capitalist system without conscience or law, of the worst kind; and coupled with a repressive system of CCP on the underclass in order to guarantee that the power will be vested in the Party and the rich who have guangxi - connections and access, as money buys influence.
There is a saying in China, "to ride a tiger" meaning you cannot get off even if you want to. I suspect China will have this status-quo system for a long time to come. This time around it is not so easy for peasants to revolt. The government owns all the technical modern marvels to use on spying her citizens.
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This is the most shallow post to date full of the typical narrow western stereotypes about Chinese people.
The fact that the Olympic flame is viewed as a sacred symbol should tell you something deep about the culture, rather than the opposite.
Come on James, lift your game. You're suppose to know this country and its people better by now.
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To Lukaigirl:
* I was never hit in the head by teachers; and I will definitely raise a concern if my kids are hit by the teachers;
* I admit that the crackdown of fa lun gong should have been done in a more tactful way, but fa lun gong was not as peaceful as you think; in some ways it operates almost like the Red Guards during the cultural revolution - the members are not allowed to see doctors or take medicine when sick, not allowed to read any book other than the one written by its founder, they have to gather two nights a week to practice and to study that one sacred book; they are supposed to be emotionally and spiritually detached from their families and friends.
* I agree that CCP/government in general needs more supervision/criticism/balance and checks, but I don't close the door when criticizing the CCP
* as I understand the vast majority of people relocated were happy with the compensation they got
* yes agree we all need unbiased news - and that includes both you and me, and nobody should be entitled to assume that the information that he gets is the absolute truth while the others have been "brainwashed"
* Taiwan is part of China, this is a fact not a lie that was fed to the Chinese - please check the history book of both mainland and Taiwan, and the map of China as accepted by the international society
* I have no idea what you were talking about in the vengeance point - did your grandparents do something horrible to my grandparents that makes you worry about the vengeance now?
And if the whites of the 21 century are not aware of the Opium war, it shows the selective memory of the west, it's a failure in the history education of the west, not an execuse for us to forget that part of the history too. And remember, to forgive does not equal to forget.
China is not going back to vengeance against anybody - have we invaded any countries that invaded us in the past? Have we forced those countries to return the treasures taken/stolen from us? have we not forgiven the huge war indebtedness that Japan owned to us? What we are doing now is simply building our own economy and improving the living conditions of our own people, and I don't understand why some people feel bothered by this.
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#161 So when you say China's behaviour over the Games is what the world is afraid of, where did you get your evidence for that? In fact I heard nothing but congratulatory messages from the journalists who covered the Games for the BBC TV news and Olympic coverage; in fact no-one complained of feeling unsafe or unwelcome. Quite the opposite.
There were indeed comments about security, but given we have had suicide bombers on the UK transport system, including a bomb being driven into an airport building and carried in bags onto the underground system I have absolutely no doubt that security will be extremely high on the UK Government's agenda too.
The reason why London won't be spending so much on the Games is because it can't afford to. The UK has not enjoyed 10%+ growth in GDP in recent years as China has and in fact the UK is now heading for recession, with individual insolvencies at an all time high and interest rates and inflation comparable to 16 years ago. If more could be spent, it would be. But it can't; it's got nothing to do with being clever with money -we just haven't got enough of it!
The comment on illegal immigration is rather ignorant, if I may say so. There are multiple reasons why people are inclined towards entering a country illegally. In the UK we're now facing an EXODUS of people from the Eastern European states as they find things aren't so great here after 10 years of the present Government. As the saying goes: the grass is always greener on the other side - until you get there and find that actually, that isn't always the case. Having said that, the UK and USA are part of the developed World and naturally people will gravitate to such places in search of opportunities - that's only natural. How many people have attempted illegal immigration into any developing country? On the other hand, the influx of foreign investment capital into China is phenomenal; not just into infrastructure, but into commercial enterprises. The point you make is really just plain silly.
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All the China bashers go down the same path: they demenise the CCP first then they demonise the government. And they would not stop there, they will reach their goal which is to demonise the people as brainwashed stupids. The only not brainwashed Chinese are those who are in total agreement with the west. They usually intensify this kind of behaviour before war. Iraqies in exiles said their country had WMD, they used it as part of the evidence to claim Iraq had WMD. They use what ever Tibetans in exiles said to claim that the Chinese government had abused Tibetans' humanrights.
I do not think USA is strong enough at the moment to start another war. But I do think they are trying to split China. All these media thugeries serves one purpose: to justify their support of separatism.
They made themself the enemy of 1.3 billion people.
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@TrrryNo2:
Your explanation that UK cannot afford to spend the money on her 2012 Olympics is absolutely wrong and condescending. UK and US may be having a mild recession, but the overall living standard of her people are much higher than the Chinese in China in general. It is convenient of you to forget the 700+million people living in dire poverty in China whose standard of living is way below the average of UK and US. This is the important point to make, that the Chinese government is willing to squander huge sums of money to impress the world insteading of improving the infrastructure of China and the life of the people living in poverty. This would have been a huge scandal if it happens in U.S. or any other democratic society. China is like a poor man wearing a fake diamond, it sparkles but it ain't the real thing. China seems to have the trappings of a rich country, but it hides all her social decays by evicting the poor and rule by repression.
On illegal immigration - the developed world gets more than their share of illegal immigrants. The reason is partly for better economic oppoutunity, many immigrant in this century had emigrated from their own country to escape repression. Chinese immigrants for one are spread all over Europe, U.S., Australia, S. America and some even to Africa. The biggest immigration took place during the Chinese communist period. I have relatives who were "struggled against" by the Commies in China for being Capitalists running dogs because they were the educated elites. Peasants who swam across the Pearl River to Hong Kong risking their life and jail, escaped China because they were tired of being watched, or being struggled against for not showing enough enthusiasm for Commie idealogies. Need I to say more on this issue of immigrants leaving China and that was not that long ago? The Polish, the Hungarians, the East Germans......, all wanted to escape to the West not just for economic reasons. East Berliners escaped while dying for it.
I understand my fellow Chinese will not be convinced no matter the turth. They prefer to have their tunnel vision when the conversation involves criticism of China, because it is more comforting not to see the rest. The biggest reason though is that, there are over 300+millioin Chinese who would be ready any time to stand up and support their government whose policy is making them rich, where as the other 700+ million cannot read or speak or write English, nor have access to internet are kept oppressed by the Chinese government.
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Communism :
Poor gets Richer, Rich not too rich.
Capitalism :
Poor gets poorer, Rich gets richer.
democracy :
A platform for the Captalists to brainwash and lie to the poor.
victim : 161. Corvus4u
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#174. Thankyou for your reply, however I'm afraid your understanding on this matter is very limited.
In order for the UK Government to spend more on the Olympics it has either to: 1. Raise taxation 2. Borrow money 3. Take money from the Lottery that is meant for Charities or 4 Obtain money from private sponsors. This is not to be condascending; just realistic.
To link expenditure on the Olympics with other things that could have been paid for exists in all Government expenditure - whether in the UK or China or elsewhere. Why should the UK Government bother to hold the Olympics at all, at a cost of USD18.5 billion when it has also a target to reduce child poverty in the UK and to increase child teaching standards. I assume you do know that child poverty does still exists in the UK? Do you also know that more elderly people die in the winter months in the UK than at any other time, because they cannot afford to heat themselves properly? The reason why the UK Government wants to hold the Olympics for a price that could eliminate child poverty and winter deaths is for a reason called "national pride"; if it could spend more it would.
Your comments on illegal immigration are actually quite some time out of date and I'm afraid to say are badly coloured by the use of the word "Commies", which points to your views being politically based, whereas mine are based on reason. The world is a different place since the Berlin Wall came down. China is a substaintially different place now than it was 25 years ago. It has a stock market; it has private property; it has enacted intellectual property rights legislation; it has privatised state-owned enterprises based on the Western model. It encourages the teaching of English. It sponsors government officials to visit Western countries to learn new techniques. It has built technology business parks and actively encourages investment. It has a National Audit Office to monitor the behaviour of Government bodies, such as we have in the UK. It has a regulatory body to watch over the stock market, such as we have in the UK; but all this development takes time. Mistakes will be made along the way, as happens when a country develops, but it's all part of a learning process.
Remember that the UK has a long social and economic history that encompasses an agricultural revolution, an industrial revolution (probably twice, including the privatisation of publicly-owned companies) and, to some extent, a financial services revolution. All of this has taken place over centuries. It was only in 1992 that we had a Code of Corporate governance for companies - but the first company like the type we have today was formed in around 1650!
China has come a very very long way since the 1980s. It has actively sought to learn from the West on what is best practice.
For you to run it down is wrong.
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communism:
poor are still poor.
The rich ones were sent to the labour camp.
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TerryNo2:
I am not talking about specifics. You want to talk about if apple is the same as oranges. Well, I don't believe we can have any understanding. Britain is a very small country and yet it is No. 4 in Olympic medal count. In terms of population/medal ratio, Britain has out done China. So, if we are going to compare systems, we should be looking at standard of living and per capita income. (I will leave this to an economist.) There is no doubt, Britain will be ahead of China. Is there social problems that needs fixing in Britain, no doubt. Every society has its particular indigenous problem to solve. Whether Braitain can afford to spend that much is a matter of choice. If Britain is not a democracy, the amount of money to spend will not be an issue, just like China had done - 42 billion dollars spend on a show while 3/4 of the population has no health care, free education, clean and unpolluted air, etc.....
So many Chinese bloggers claims that China has a 5,000 year old unbroken history and culture. Then they plead for China when she comes under criticism as a new country, only 25 years old needing more time to learn. So, which is it?
You mention about all the governmental changes, the legal and commercial law changes, I would agree that they are in the books. But, they are not uniformly or widely enforced. I personally have to handle copy right violations by Chinese in scientific publiscation. If China has all these laws in the books and is enforcing those laws, how do you explain all the contaminated goods, the fake goods, the ethical violations?
Yes, China has to learn not just by sending officials overseas, but to learn to be honest, forthright, ethical as a part of good governance, which does not require going overseas. In fact, the root of corruption comes from the practice of qaunxi - connection. Chinese need to learn that morality or business ethics are not to be compromised for expediency.
When China succeeds in teaching this behavior based on moral grounding to all Chinese people and officials, then China will truly be a great nation, i.e., I am not asking for perfection, just a lot less corruption, more on the parrellel to Western democracies.
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#174 I read in my newspaper today that a cancer victim is to sue the UK Government for access to the appropriate medicine to help his survival, since although the medicine is available the health service will not prescribe it to him. Just recently we have also had the case of the health service rationing medicine to those with failing eyesight, saying that sight had to be lost in one eye before Government assistance will be provided to save the other one. The UK Government has a target to eliminate child poverty in the UK by 2020.
I say these things to point out that what a Government can afford to pay has to be set against what its objectives are. The UK Government clearly feels that USD18.5 billion is a price worth paying for the Olympics, and given China's current place in the World and the strength of its economy its Government has made a judgment too.
The problem with your analysis generally is that refer to instances which are not current, only how they were. Given the number of Chinese students who are now educated abroad - and return freely to China - you have to accept that reference to "Commies" and people getting stuck on barbed wire fences trying to escape from Eastern Europe is way out of date. It's like saying the in the UK we still send little children up smokey chimneys to clean them, and that Bristol still harbours ships full of slaves before they're transported to America.
As China progress through its own industrial revolution it needs to set its sights on innovation and its cultural heritage. A lot of the framework for a financial services industry, of commercial and property laws are in place; China has established links with all the important UK accounting and auditing bodies and every good University has an agency in China.
A lot has happened since Nixon met Chairman Mao in 1972.
Say what you like. I call the above real change. It has come along way very fast. And that is something that China can justly be proud of. To go faster will risk undoing everything.
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“In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion”
Just try to refresh basic history and current reality with you.
I know UK has a state God (religion); groups of people ditched their oppressive religion and formed the USA. And you know China has no state God, because China is a secular state where religions and politics are truly separated.
China is actually far more tolerant in that she nurtures more than just one religion. And I guess her people will oppose whoever imposes his/her religion on them.
As next Olympics is concerned, Go London!
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Please, put my poem up. Freedom of speech, I am practicing it. Besides, westerners have the right to hear different opinions in poetic forms.
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It's hard to believe that a country without any "religion" may sustain for 5000 years, ha? If you don't understand China, why not be more modest and start to learn?
Listen to your tone:"A billion people will now have to find something else to believe in." Are you innocent or ignorant? You don't know that the Chinese nation doesn't need a "religion" to carry on? For thousands of years we have gone through, without a "religion" (in your words), then what do you think is the right reason for that? You don't know we are different from you? You don't care to know at all, I suppose.
Maybe we don't say "God" verbally, but we do know there is an invisible "God" who is watching this world. The Chinese culture is too complicated a thing for you to understand.
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Hi James
I have been living in the US as a Chinese American Christian for over 30 years. I "think" that I understand both eastern and western cultures. I tend to agree with you to a certain extent that the Beijing 2008 Olympic game has been a very extravagant affair, which almost became a state sponsored “religion” in the eyes of western people. Maybe it should not be displayed in such a grandiose scale for wasting the precious Chinese tax payer’s money. But as you said, the Chinese has harbored this “victim” mentality with very low self esteem ever since British started the “Opium War” against the Ching dynasty in the 19th century. The Olympic game has given a chance for the Chinese to show the world the real China economically and politically. China has spent billions and billions of dollars and only time can tell the game’s after effect.
But let me ask you an interesting question: If China would adopt the western style democracy, adopt the western style elections, adopt the British monarchy, and everyone would convert to the Christian faith, would you and the western media be willing to report anything less sarcastically and more positively about China, its culture and its people? Pardon me to say that the answer is probably “No”. Because we have seen what happened to the USSR! For this reason alone, the China should be allowed to experiment and develop its own characteristic political and economical system since it has such a long and brilliant alive history!
James, East is East and West is West. There is a huge chasm! I hope one day a very smart philosopher, saint, politician, or scientist, whoever, etc. could find a way to build a bridge, until then, the only way to render peace in this world is to try to respect each other and understand the other culture and report with less bias. For this reason, you have a huge responsibility; unfortunately recent events in Tibet and Olympic torch passing have shown the ordinary Chinese the hypocrisy and double standards of the western media. Very unfortunately, your blogs are now being considered to be humiliating, biased, sarcastic and with political agenda to most Chinese audience including the oversea Chinese. James, you need to “think” before you write…
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Sad is the fact that in a Christian country like the UK, an awful lot of christians choose not to watch BBC because they don't trust it any more.
To claim that one does have a religion cannot buy you out. Something that matters is God has imprinted conscience on all the human beings. Neglecting conscience, the gift from God, any country with a religion may still undertake numerous human disasters. The history has already told us so.
The problem is that too many people nowadays have lost their conscience, whether in the west or in the east.
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"In a state which has no God, the Olympics has been a religion - together with its own cathedrals, rituals, and sacred flames. Everyone in China was meant to be a worshipper. If you didn't believe in the Games, you were dismissed as a heretic."
This is so untrue James. I'm sorry for your intelligence to make such a shallow judgement.
My mom is a buddist, and my 10-year old son goes with her every other week to a temple to worship their God, and I went there once with them, and saw thousands of worshippers there.
I didn't care about the games before it started, many others were the same, however I was attracted to it solely because of the excellent performance of the athelets. After all, it is a game event for all to enjoy. Please try not to politicize it.
I've been following your reports about China as a Chinese. I have to say, you failed to do your job well. You failed to give the world an objective China, a real China, your responsiblity is to bring the whole world closer, but by your biased reports, the distance between China and the world has been unnecessarily widened. I wish to see a jounalist with conscience to cover china as it isl. You have right to cover negetive things about China, but when your reports are 80% full of negative things about China, do you think it's fair? How difficult it is to pick a few negative things in such a huge country? how selective you are as what to report about China? What about the rest of the picture? You are misleading the whole world who ever reads your reports.
Your coverage about Olympics sounds bitter and jealasy. I'm sorry you feel that way. I had hoped you enjoyed the games as much as I did.
You first of all, are hunman being, then you are a journalist. Empty your mind and watch China in a fair way. Otherwise, you are only one of the journalists hired by a government run media trying to meet the taste of the main stream in the west. That way, I suggest you change your career. Think with your own mind, not what you are fed with!
However, I responded to your coverage about the contaminated milk power, I showed my anger and disappointment to the government in my response. I hope you learn the meaning of the word: F-A-I-R
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It was a very sacred ceremony to the conclusion of the olympics....
~Dennis Junior~
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