Freedom in China
How much freedom is there in China? There are two competing ways to see it.
International human rights groups say that China is a police state in which the government has the power to bully, detain, or even execute citizens who step out of line. In this state, ordinary people are denied their inherent rights. They have to rely instead on the mercy of a state which often shows no compassion towards its most vulnerable citizens.
But the Chinese government insists that this view is a distortion. The Communist Party says that China's citizens now enjoy far greater freedoms than they did before. Around 400 million people have been lifted out of poverty over the course of just one generation - that these people now have freedom from hunger and disease.
The argument between these two competing points of view batters about throughout the year (the most recent round took place a few days ago with the publication of a report by Amnesty International followed by a rebuttal by the Chinese government.)
But here's the problem with this continuing argument - both points of view are actually correct. China is an authoritarian state which punishes dissent. But, at the same time, it's also a state in which today's young people enjoy far more freedom than their parents ever did.
A generation ago, your life as a Chinese person was mostly decided for you by the state. Every citizen belonged to a work unit - the most basic structure of organisation in the Communist system. This unit was your careers advisor, social worker, matchmaker, and parole officer in one.
In return for your obedience, you were given free education, free housing, an assigned job, and free healthcare (this universal welfare and work system was known as the iron rice bowl.)
Sometimes, the unit would even pick you a husband or wife as well. In this system, Chinese people hardly had any space left for their own decisions (and even if they had any money to spend, there was very little to spend it on.)
But, in 1978 China's leader Deng Xiaoping began a series of economic reforms that opened up China to the rest of the world (effectively swapping pure communism for high-concentrate capitalism.) As a result, the old state-tells-you-what-colour-socks-to-wear system has changed. The Communist Party has now retreated from many parts of people's lives.
Today, people in China now have much greater freedom of choice than they did several decades ago...
What people in China can now do:
• move around the country more freely
• travel abroad
• buy their own house (a law protecting private property was passed in 2007)
• pick their own job
• decide who they want to marry (and decide if they want to get divorced)
• openly criticise government corruption & failure (but only at mid and low levels)
It's worth bearing this new set of freedoms in mind, because it's often the most immediate benchmark for younger people in China (mostly because it's a direct comparison with their own parents' lives - surely the most meaningful comparison in anyone's life.)
By contrast, to many of the older generation in China, this new freedom can sometimes feel a bit like abandonment. Among those who grew up under the certainties of old system there is regret over the loss of free education, housing and health care. Now, if you get sick, or lose your job - you're largely on your own. (The government has caught onto how angry people feel about this - and it recently promised to bring back parts of the old welfare system.)
For all the new freedoms and choices, there are still many restrictions and red lines in modern China...
What people in China are not allowed to do:
• choose their government in an open election
• criticise the Communist Party's top leaders (at least in public)
• have more than one child (rule applies to the ethnic Han majority living in urban areas)
• form an independent trade union.
• worship a religion which does not pledge loyalty to the Communist Party
• access all parts of the internet (although the smartest can find ways round the firewall)
Some of the political red lines were firmly drawn up in 1989 when the government sent in tanks to end student protests in Tiananmen Square. Since then, many believe that the government has worked out a tacit bargain with its citizens - the Communist Party makes the people rich, in exchange the people let the Party handle all the politics.
But if you don't buy into this agreement, or if you just happen to get into trouble, the system can be pretty unforgiving. The recent Amnesty report details the continuing use of detention without trial as a means of controlling petitioners trying to get their voices heard, and it also documents the continuing harassment of human rights defenders.
During my time in China I've reported on the stories of many ordinary people who've been defeated - or even crushed - by a system which has no room for their views or problems.
In the end, perhaps the way you see freedom in China depends on your starting point.
If you compare things to a generation ago, the average Chinese person now has much more choice - and freedom - in his/her life.
But if you compare things to the way they are in other countries - or even to the promises that China itself has made - then the average Chinese person has a tougher time.
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~33~RS~)
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"How much freedom is there in China? There are two competing ways to see it.
International human rights groups say ...
But the Chinese government insists ..."
Well, when you are actually in China NOW, why not to find the 3rd way which is to ask ordinary Chinese people? I want to repeat, ORDINARY Chinese people.
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Olympics is not just a game, it is a place and time for the world to come together in peace and harmony.
The host country should uphold peace, democracy and human rights in order to truly deserve the title of the host of the Olympics.
Free Tibet.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"During my time in China I've reported on the stories of many ordinary people who've been defeated - or even crushed"
One and half years have passed since you went to China. Can I ask how many of "ordinary people" you've reported and how "ordinary" they are?
Under any system, there are victims and beneficiaries. Have you checked how many victims you've reported and how many beneficiaries you'vr reported? Have you checked the proportion of victims/beneficiaries in that country? Is that proportion in line with your reports?
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I was waiting for the part of what normal Chinese people think... but it didn't come. There was a good snippet on radio 4.
FYI two parents both from a single child family can have two children? I think the restrictions are important, but will loosen up sooner or later.
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James, I think your blog today really points out one of the basic things behind many contentious issues around China, particularly freedom. Well done!
I often feel that the main stream media of the west often pick the starting point of what China should be, perhaps it’s easier to write from a pessimistic point of view (e.g. China’s dash for freedom), and perhaps it is easier to get published and more likely to spur discussions.
I want to say that perhaps there are more than just two competing choices (the well-established western democracy vs. the old iron-hand authoritarian way) in front of Chinese people on its long march to have a more civilized future. It’s unfortunate or fortunately or just a plan reality that they are still struglling.
I think Chinese people are always read to learn, but they probably don’t always like being taught (by Chinese government/media or by Western governments/media).
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Very good report. Most of the points are accurate. I like you post a report with a both side of the story and been objective.
For the old system, people did feel they dont have much freedom. People always work in a same facotry/company for 10,20 years and base on the years they spent, they get a better pay. Also they been give free education, free house, even free schools/nursery for your own child. A factory is so big, even like a small society. This system is gone long time ago and cause a huge problem for people losing their job(Xia Gang). China spent about 10 years try to solve this problem and this problem still exist in some cities.
The new system is pretty much base on earn what you can and look after youself. But for the people left from old system, they still have some benefit which allow them to live without too much problem. Such like medical insurance(Yi Liao Bao Xian), Cheap house(Jing Ji Shi Yong Fang), Social Benefit etc. People basically can live with some help from goverment and if they want to seek better life, they must work harder to find their own way.
The things cant not do , which James metioned. I like to explain little bit as well.
1. choose a goverment from open election. --> this is a fundamental change, a long established country like China, wounldnt and counldnt throw a election instantly. It only will cause chaos and bring the country down. Its not Chinese dont know they need a election, just because it will destory their life and they rather live like now to enjoy more in other respects.
2. Criticise goverment top leader. I think people can criticise goverment leader much more openly. James,If you go to chinese forum, you often will see people criticise leaders. But the top leaders , people simply love them, if you post a article saying Hu or Wen is bad, it doesnt need police to come after you(and also they dont). All the people in the fourm will crash you.
3. Have more than one child. I agree this restriction is not fair for urban people. But China suffer such a large population and if China dont control the population. It probably put much more peopel into proverty and let the whole world down. (food, fuel, ... etc). Do you like to see 2bn people in China?
4. form an indenpendent trade union. I think its happening now.
5. workship a religion which doesnt loyal to central goverment. There are many religions in China and not all of them are loyal to central goverment. But I think James your point here is particular for Fa Lung Gong. Fa Lung Gong has very complicate background and their action against central goverment is no acceptable in any goverment. You need to study more about Fa Lung Gong.
6. Yes, people cant access all part of the internet. That is what I dont agree what central goverment do. Coz even they open the limitation for Fa Lung Gong, 6.4 or whatever. Most people wont believe or wont bother to check it. Why no oepn it and give western media less to criticise.
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In addition to the sadness whenever I read James' negative and intentional article, I feel the senseless comparison between the West and China is absurd because the two's history, culture and mentality(philosophy) are different. I do not mean we have to ignore certain universal human dignity, such as human rights, freedom etc.
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Hey James, isit?
Hw long have u been stayin China?
I read most of ur articals, this one is
absolutely ridiculers. U dont know China at all.
I watched date line last nite on BBC, they were talking abt China, and the change, huge change in China compare to 20 yrs ago. thr s a lady, shes critical too, bt she saw the change, shes was positive abt the huge improvement.
I like what Kevin(Australian PM) said, Im a friend of China, but Im a critical friend of China.
Itis good that foreign people give advise or even critizice on Chinese goverment, bt please please be objective.
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To "TrickyQuinsRl" who wrote:
"Olympics is not just a game, it is a place and time for the world to come together in peace and harmony.
The host country should uphold peace, democracy and human rights in order to truly deserve the title of the host of the Olympics.
Free Tibet."
Please kindly remind me, which of the hosting countries in history would have derserved the title of host of the Olympics according to your "standard"? The US? France? UK? Japan? Shockingly, more than half of the hosting coutries have invaded and/or are invading other countries.
So are you suggesting removing Olympics from the earth?
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Basically the Chinese want to be democratic in a Chinese way and in a Chinese pace. Why can't the Amnesty understand that? Amnesty International only represented the views of couple hundreds people among a billion more people in China. Even if you want to compare with other nations, China is still much freer than others. For example, sure Bangladesh is democratic, but can you say Bangladeshi have more freedom in internet than the Chinese? Heck, if you don't even have internet connection, how can you have more freedom in the Internet?
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Good article! I agree with what the author have said.
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I'd just like to remind all that China is still a developing country, also it has 1.3 billion population, it is unreasonable to expect it to change overnight!
I agree with some of the criticism such as it has human rights issues and not openly enough to the outsiders. But just look back 10 years also, I have to say China had indeed changed significantly over the period! And you all should agree with me on that!
About Taiwan, Xin Jiang, Xi Zang, these are part of China. They want to be free from Chinese ruling, let them sort these themselves. It is no one else's business! And who likes their country to split into small chunks. Just imagine Britian splits into Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales, four separate countries! Xi Zang and Xin Jiang are very poor places of China, I really can not imagine if they become independent, how are the people going to survive? In the past Chinese government had sent money to these places, but did not even get a simple thank you! If they really dislike China that much, why take the money?
Rather than listening to the Chinese government or criticism from Xi Zang, Xin Jiang, why not listen more to what ordinary Chinese say! In the end, they are the people who live in China everyday!
p.s. With a 1.3 billion population country, imagine if no bith restriction is in place, the country is going to explode!
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Freedom is a relative term, different people from different cultural background, with different wealth, view freedom differently. But in general, people value their degree of freedom based on what they need. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a recognised theory of modelling people's needs. It's basically a pyramid model where the basic needs of food, shelter etc lies in the bottom and at the top we have the Esteem needs where confidence, respect, and achievement come into play.
Freedom means little to the people at the lower end of the scale in the hierarchy of needs, frankly they have different priorities.
You people in the West think freedom is god given right, therefore it comes for free. But you forget how many generations before you have died to earn the kind of freedom you enjoy so much, and what a bloody path your previous generation has walked in order to generate the kind of wealth to the support this luxury. Freedom doesn't come easy, it can only be fully enjoyed with highly developed economy, social welfare and education. When you have to spend all day to make ends meet you really don't care about the freedom to express yourself.
In a developing country, material freedom always come first, and quite frankly I think the new Chinese generation has more freedom than they know what to do with.
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Please prove us Chinese the benefit and advantage of full FREEDOM you mentioned in your article. Our history shows us that full FREEDOM will bring us civil war, instability, starving, people killiing each other, other countries invasion etc...
How many countries in the world benefit from full FREEDOM? Except the less than 10 developed countries, i cannot see full FREEDOM bringing any benefit to majority countries in the world. Full FREEDOM to China meansthat the less than 10 developed countries will have more control of China by setting up opposite parties fighting against each other all the time, and nothing can be achieved. We Chinese know well of your stragety and we will not be fooled by you.
However this does not mean we Chinese do not like FREEDOM. As you admitted in your article, today's China is the most free period in Chinese 3000 years history. We have our way to become full FREEDOM in our rhythm, not yours.
In Britain, the women only got right to vote in 1928, and now you still can not select your queen or PM freely. Different country has different political system, we Chinese are trying to find the best one for us, but definitely not UK version, nor USA version.
Please bear in mind, Chinese Version!!!
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ukLondonuk -
Instead of feeling sad about someone keeps writing about "bad stories", you should feel sad about why these stories just keep happening if you really care about these Chinese people. James is just doing his job as a reporter, here he's presenting both sides of the story, so what do you expect?
"Have you ever compared the prizers' numbers between Britain and China, not only comparing to the US? Have you ever looked the crime rate between Britian and China? Your articles are simply ignorant and prejudiced and arogant."
Why would James wanna look at these numbers before he reports what's happening in China? Just because he's British? I can't see any relevance of all these numbers in this context. Are you trying to say a reporter from a country that wins less Olympics medals than China isn't qualified to write about China's "bad stories"?. Now tell me who is more prejudiced and arrogant.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This is a very "foreign" report from China. it is about what a foreigner wants "freedom" to be in China, not at Chinese people's interest.
James, please, do not waste your time in China, come back to London, do more interviews about knifed and gun downed victim families around doggy neighborhood in UK, when everyone has to worry about their own life while walk on the street and buses, it is far from being "freedom" in your own mother soil.
Bitterness and insecurity do not get you and our UK further. Please learn from Chinese's humility .
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Are you really care about human right in China? OR are you just showing off your high moral ground? Some hypocritical Western journalists just pretend that they care human right so they can play the card of bashing China.
How many countries has Britain invaded?
how many civilians have British troops killed?
175 out of 180 countries in the world today have the moral ground to criticize China , except the British colonialist, French colonialist, German Nazis, and US Imperialists.
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Why are you guys so obsessed with 'human right'? It is the time for the Olympics, BBC send you there just to report 'human right' and internet access?
what would you think if next time when London hold the 2012 games, Beijing send a Chinese version of James to London and report the notorious knife crime every day?
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chuhj122 -
"2. Criticise goverment top leader. I think people can criticise goverment leader much more openly. James,If you go to chinese forum, you often will see people criticise leaders. But the top leaders , people simply love them, if you post a article saying Hu or Wen is bad, it doesnt need police to come after you(and also they dont). All the people in the fourm will crash you."
This is just not good enough (by any standards). Try shouting and critising the top leaders aloud in Tiananmen square and you will see what I mean
--->
First, I wont do it. I love Hu. Second, if you really have a problem and want to shout to the top leader on tiananmen square, what police do is take you away and give u a warning, then release you. Its same anywhere. Hehe. BTW, I dont think you understand Chinese anyway, so you can't read Chinese forum, blog or even speak Chinese. What do you know? How many corrupted officials been brought down by internet forum in China. Do you know? Wiser people always know how to slove problem. People just shouting freedom and ignore the real progress is anarchism. Simple..
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Human right in China is far better than Britain, at least the Chinese don't have to worry about being stabbed by teenagers in front of their own door!
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Intl HR groups: made up of ppl who know little about China, or never been to China, or who have spent time in Chinese prisons (for whatever reason, they portray themselves as victims anyway). make up a list of the coutry's HR faults and bark one at a time to cash in themselves. Well, not that these problems are not real or the justice they are fighting for (seemingly) is no good for the country. I just dispise ppl who make a living on charity by protesting 24/7, I just don't want them to fight for my freedom.
The Chinese gov: doing Ooookay...(if not they would have been overthrowned by now, trust Chinese ppl). But corruption is a serious problem, and some ppl in key posts r a bit too old (tell me that you r not angry when even non-political summer blockbusters are chopped up into pieces by SARFT~).
So, what do I care what those two above tell me? Young Chinese ppl have tasted more freedom than before and they will only want more. There's no going back.
PS. 'move around the country more freely'
If I move to Xizang, tibenan ppl are not happy; if I move to Xinjiang, Uighur ppl are not happy----not so much freedom really. Independence? Never (under this gov), but surely it's time to revise our policy in helping and protecting ethnic minorities.
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James, congratualations! This is one piece of article that shows good research work (rather than a standard cut and paste job from most western newspapers).
As always, I enjoy your blog and glad to see you putting in more depth into your articles.
Well done!
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"If you compare things to a generation ago, the average Chinese person now has much more choice - and freedom - in his/her life."
Shall I say:
China is improving.
Chinese people want no less rights than any others.
Chinese people can make their own way.
"But if you compare things to the way they are in other countries - or even to the promises that China itself has made - then the average Chinese person has a tougher time."
Shall I say:
Anyone who is having more rights that average Chinese can feel good about oneself, feel free.
Promises are not always kept, at least China has the heart to make the promise and trying to fulfil, so please don't be too harsh.
Please don't kid yourself as the savior of Chinese people, or pass around judgments as if you care about Chinese people.
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Hi James,
You're pretty much right. Comparison with China's recent past certainly makes the present situation look better. All that can be done is improve on what has gone before. Older people I've chatted to have told me how great it is to be left alone to do Tai Chi, collect stamps, paint and do other hobbies. Such things were previously denounced as "bourgeois" and serious consequences possible. In the specific Chinese context, progress has been and is being made.
Having said the above, people are still going to prison for something they have said or written, and this is simply wrong. China's consitution contains passages about freedom of speech, etc. and it is a sad fact that officials violate the consitution they should be defending.
I think the ideal of all people deserving the right to speak out without being intimidated or worse and have an accountable government of their own choosing too often gets lost. There are a number of causes for that happening such as perceived loss of face leading to (frequently absurd) counter-accusations.
A democratic system in China must of course bare a strong Chinese stamp. Given the suffering endured by the people both recently and further back, at the hands of both the Chinese state and foreigners, the Chinese people have long since earned the right to expect the ideal to be put into practice.
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I must quote what "manchester" has said, because they are what I do exactly want to say:
"Please prove us Chinese the benefit and advantage of full FREEDOM you mentioned in your article. Our history shows us that full FREEDOM will bring us civil war, instability, starving, people killiing each other, other countries invasion etc...
How many countries in the world benefit from full FREEDOM? Except the less than 10 developed countries, i cannot see full FREEDOM bringing any benefit to majority countries in the world. Full FREEDOM to China meansthat the less than 10 developed countries will have more control of China by setting up opposite parties fighting against each other all the time, and nothing can be achieved. We Chinese know well of your stragety and we will not be fooled by you.
However this does not mean we Chinese do not like FREEDOM. As you admitted in your article, today's China is the most free period in Chinese 3000 years history. We have our way to become full FREEDOM in our rhythm, not yours.
In Britain, the women only got right to vote in 1928, and now you still can not select your queen or PM freely. Different country has different political system, we Chinese are trying to find the best one for us, but definitely not UK version, nor USA version.
Please bear in mind, Chinese Version!!!"
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Communism is a direct couterproduct of the rules of tyrannies (be that the aristocrats or theocrats). It is the communism that overthrown the rules of those tyrannies never to return and liberate the commoners from their grips.
Today, people criticise Communist governments of China for lack of human rights and freedom for commoners, although the rights and freedom they enjoy are far greater than they did under those tyrannies.
More criticism means greater improvement. And the progress is happening. China is, in deed, fast becoming an open and transparent society. And a rich country too.
China won the vote to host Olympic itself is one evidence that China is in line with any other democratic country.
From the recent press conference of the Olympic authorities, it is clear that they are well contented with the China's performance.
IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT CHINA'S PRESENT FORM OF GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE REPLACED BY A KIND OF GOVERNMENT PATTERNED AFTER THAT OF THE WEST, although many may wish so.
There is no evident guarantee that such a government would work everywhere.
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"Why would James wanna look at these numbers before he reports what's happening in China? Just because he's British? I can't see any relevance of all these numbers in this context. Are you trying to say a reporter from a country that wins less Olympics medals than China isn't qualified to write about China's "bad stories"?. Now tell me who is more prejudiced and arrogant. "
Oneday, you will learn to be fair and humble to other people around the world. Certainly not these days as your guys believe all your values are absolutely right.
Just tell that western's extremely selfish culture has ruined the world in many ways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Here are the things people in the West are allow to do as opposed to things are not allowed in China:
choose their government in an open election - Labour, Tory and the Lib-Dem. Same “droppings” from different “behinds”. I don't really see their policies are that different from each other. Voting one is just as good as voting the other. Minority parties have no chance. The system is flawed itself.
criticise the government - people can get arrested for citing "religious/racial hatred" (where do you draw the line?). Suspects will now be hold up to 42 days without trial in the UK for “having links with the terrorists”. This will probably destroy a person’s career or reputation. Miner strike is another good example.
have more than one child - our welfare system can't afford to pay for all these people on benefits and not working like here in the UK. Besides, there are simply too many people in China. Try and limit the number should be considered as a good thing. We are only doing it to cut our CO2 emissions, so you can get off our backs.
form independent trade union – Thatcherism.
worship religion does not pledge loyalty to CCP - I will give you that. But what is religion anyway? Scientology is not recognised in UK as a religion but as an organisation. What happens if this organisation were to take the Parliament under siege and force it to grant approval? FLG tried and failed.
access all parts of internet - people are getting threatening letters for using p2p from ISPs in UK. How do they know that I am transferring/sharing illegal files?? only by creeping into my computer and the Government is silent on intrusion of privacy?
Add Guantanamo Bay and illegal war in Iraq on the list as well as the unexplained death of Dr. David Kelly (Lord Horton hears a who? The BBC got off easy)
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Finally, I start to agree with James,
For many Chinese, escaping from hunger and disease matters more than accessing all parts of the internet.
But ,
>> worship a religion which does not pledge loyalty
Would the UK or any government allows Osama bin Laden to worship a religion in their country?
Terrorism is NOT a religion, I am sure you agree.
BTW, Han majority living in urban areas are now allowed to have more than 1 child if they were the only 1 child in their family.
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Well, a good blog in days at last! To improve, we need to stabilize at first. If u got to make others understand this better, maybe there'll be less chaos and we can finally achieve a happy ending! Looking forward to more insightful blogs.
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"TrickyQuinsRI"
Yes, free Tibet! Tibetans were freed from slavery in 1950 when China re-asserted control over the territory. Good riddance to the Dalai Lama, the serf master of Tibet.
"heyone"
"Try shouting and critisizing aloud the top leaders in Tiananmen Square and you will see what I mean."
If you did that, the ordinary Chinese will shout you down. Top Chinese leaders like Hu and Wen are immensely popular, unlike their counterparts in the US, UK, or France.
Outsiders need not worry whether the Chinese have enough freedom when most of them are very contented. Getting out of poverty or more prosperous is their priority right now. A system of government will evolve eventually, which is different from the present system but not necessarily one modelled on the West. What has democracy brought to the untouchables of India (after 60 years) or the poor of the Phillipines (after 20 years)?
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Richchild:
"Xi Zang and Xin Jiang are very poor places of China, I really can not imagine if they become independent, how are the people going to survive?"
They managed for thousands of years.
"In the past Chinese government had sent money to these places, but did not even get a simple thank you!"
Perhaps they believe that their traditional way of life is more important than money?
"Rather than listening to the Chinese government or criticism from Xi Zang, Xin Jiang, why not listen more to what ordinary Chinese say!"
You mean instead of listening to what the natives of Tibet and Xinjiang say listen to what 'ordinary' Han Chinese say?
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Reynolds:
The problem with your notion of "freedom" is that it is unbounded, amorphous, theoretical, and therefore undefinable. Everything must be measured and compared, without a baseline, a measurement is just a number, it is irrelevant, until and unless it is put into context.
You do a good job of putting the Chinese experience into context. Hopefully it will show many Westerners the fact that Chinese have more freedom than ever before, than China is growing and changing at a rapid pace, that China and the Chinese, when given a chance and a square deal by world, can and will develop and flourish.
But, of course, you ask for more. But what is more? Is the keeping of a royal family on working tax dollars/pounds who pretty much do nothing outside of being a vestige of historical tradition an element of a freer society? Is the 2nd Amendment right of bear arms (read: pack heat) indictia of freer society? Is unfettered internet access to pornography and the prurient interest what makes society a freer democracy?
Taken to the extreme, freedom is just anarchy. The line which prevents freedom from being anarchy is draw in shades of grey. Ask Chinese if they want "freedom to bear arms" or "freedom for corrupt officials to be free from the death penalty" and you will see the reply. It is a matter of culture, it is a matter of history, and it is a matter of Chinese people knowing which freedoms are insane and which ones are right to have and fight for. Corrupt officials should be executed, those who would rob from the mouths of the multitudes whom they purport to represent are more vile than your common murder, pornography should be censored from the youth, and guns should be banned from being proliferated cross the nation.
All these ideas may offend American notions of "freedom" and democracy, but as to that, the Chinese have every right to say ... tough, we don't care what you think of our rules. It is the very decadence and lack of governmental concern and guidance that America labels as "freedom" and "fundamental rights" which is killing this country as a dominant world power ... the American work ethic is dead, the American family is dead, the rise of "freedom" has begun the downfall of America much like overt decadence caused the collapse of Rome. When people have too much, get too lazy, forget what it is to sweat and labor for a better life ... i.e. when people have too much of this so called "freedom" -- society ceases to have cohesion and purpose, it's each man for himself, and there is the very problem.
China's old and historical and sensible enough to realize that nations are destroyed by unfettered freedom. Good governance is, after all, good governance. This we strive for, and we have a long ways to go, but the nation shall never be sacrificed for the sake of individual and personal freedoms which extend to perversity if unchecked and allowed to be given into the nature of man which always wants more more more. That is the very purpose of government ... a point that so many conveniently forget when speaking of "more freedom" for China and the Chinese.
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What freedom do British people enjoy? MPs can use tax payer's money to pay their sons or wifes for internship or secretary work. Sure if this is disclosed by Chinese media or forum, the MP will definitely step down and immediately sacked and put into prison if it is severe. However, nearly all British MPs can spend their allowance in the way whatever they like, the public simply can do nothing but angry. BBC has freely reported this scandal. What changed since then? Nothing!
What freedom do British people enjoy? Free election? Funny! Labour, Conservative, Lib-democ. They are basically the same. Why the voter turing up rate was so low (30%? 40%?) year after year. Because simply whatever which party is in power, the policy is more or less the same. I cannot see any benefit of free election. The election campaign cost huge money, huge public resource, and achieve nothing! Why will Chinese follow this stupid system?
What freedom do British people enjoy? Free regious belief? Less than 10% of whole British population go to Church, majority British people simply believe nothing, just like many Chinese do. What will happen if one "religious" group try to seige your parliament and force the government to grant them legal position and to arrest the professor who wrote an article of critising them? This is exactly what FLG did to Chinese government (actually that time Chinese government even did know what is FLG)?
What freedom do British people enjoy? Free giving birth baby as many as you like? Oh, don't be silly. You just finished complaining that China is a bigger polluter and green house emmisioner. Now you want China to have more people to add to this? With 1.3 billion people and one fifth world population are Chinese, you still want more? If you really care about human rights and think Chinese peple's life are so miserable, prefer and no birth control in China, how about China simply send 10 million people to Great Britain every year? Will you accept them? Why not? Britain does have free giving birth, but I am really sick my tax being paid to the parents or single mum who simply just gave birth, but no education to their children and leave their children become hoody and stab innocent people to death...
What freedom do British people enjoy? Free access to internet? Do you know how many democratic countries simply do not have facilities to get access to internet? Why? They are too poor! Have your ever visited Chinese forum? You might not know how severe they criticise the government, but I know more severe than the British forum, because majority British people simply do not have inerest in politics, because they do not trust politician anyway.
What freedom do British people enjoy?
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Hi James,
I am not sure if you notice that most of the comment posted in your blog are written by educated, ordinary, new generation Chinese. So hope you can get some point of view from these comments about China and our view about human rights etc.
But Thanks for your careness and kindness about the Chinese human rights, etc. Our Chinese people, the future generation can handle all this kind problem by our own way. So you can save the effort to take care of your own country's problem in order to compete with us in the future. The supply of your report might be due to the demand from your own country, but if these bad report about China can make the British feel much better about their own, I wish you all the best in the future.
Thanks
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James,
I was disappointed by that you ignored the majority of China's people living in the rural region. Your ignorance to them just like that of the CCP. You mentioned that Chinese people had free health care before the open door policy. Please remember, it was just for people living in cities, nothing to do with the people in the rural area. Please keep in mind, those rural people have been treated as the second class citizen, if you call them citizen - they are actually slaves.
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For your example, Hu Jia accepted funds from a foreign intelligence agency. This is illegal in many Western nations.
Your media never tell you the full story. Do you know why?
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I spend 20 years in China; then 20 years in the US. China actually treats her people BETTER than the West. Chinese people enjoy BETTER freedom of thoughts and freedom of religion. China is MORE open than the West. China is never truly communistic. At the height of the Culture Revolution,youths easily over-threw their commy leaders.Today, Chinese companies negotiate tax with government.I notice many Eastern Europeans have significant different views.Eastern Europe is totally different from China.
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Dear James,
Most Westerners dismiss the Chinese democracy without any knowledge about it. The current Chinese political system is an evolving animal. It is worthy of a million dollar academic research.
As early as 20 years ago, I was encouraged to vote for district and neighborhood People’s representatives. Contact information and telephone numbers of these People’s representatives are publicized. The People’s representatives elect a percentage among themselves to participate in the Chinese People’s Congress. Various interests groups, no-CPC political parties, ethnic minorities and the Chinese army also arrange representatives to the Congress. China is hugely populous. This several-layered democracy is effect and cheap to maintain. The People’s representatives get absolutely no benefit by voting yes. They think in terms of their interests groups or home districts. If they do not do a good job, they will not be chosen.
In the country side, people can elect whoever they like. Although the candidates are all of the CPC party, the election is mostly non-partisan. People are chosen based on their individual merits. Every villager knows each other anyways.
The current Chinese system is NOT ANY WORSE than the political systems in the UK and US.
Westerners tend to think the current freedom of China is something new. Westerners listen to horrific stories during their childhood. They see the current China as a society changed. The truth is that China and the Chinese people have not changed any.
During the extreme “suppression” of Culture Revolution, Chinese youth could easily over-throw their Communistic bosses. Westerners today have no such power. Throughout Chinese history, all the dynasties are over-thrown by the Chinese people with amazing ease. Chinese people enjoy the BEST freedom on earth through out their history. The West mistakes Confucius-way-of-RESPECT as suppression.
How can I explain this?
Hmm, think this way, the smart Yellow Emperor set a system in China where the nation and its government is the church. The leader is the Pope. However, the “Pope” is required to listen to the people. As early as Tang Dynasty, the Chinese emperor is recorded as saying he is a servant of the Chinese people. So, the Church is not religious (in Western civilizations sense) and the leader can be dismissed if he fails to deliver. The West has a lot to learn.
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Freedom is over rated in the west. One election every 4 or 5 years. Governments that can pretty much do whatever they want without allowing people the vote (EU). Governments can promise one thing and then do something completely different. We vote on the party, not the leader. We vote based on a collection of promises even if we disagree with indiviual issues.
A society that would sooner step on you than help you up. More regulations and laws than you could ever read. I have to wear a seat belt even though not wearing one does no harm to others. We have about 1000 laws on how to build a house. We can be stopped at anytime by the police and asked for our papers and/or searched. We can be held for long periods of time without trial. Our governments pretty much monitor all communications. We need a licence to own a dog or go hunting. The amount of papers/licences/documents that we need to live day by day is worse than 30's Germany.
We are taxed heavily and most of the money is wasted on pet projects or spent on policies that we disagree with. Money is given to corporations in the form of tax breaks or new laws. Yes, I can get into my car and drive across the country or travel overseas, but lets not make the mistake of beliving that we have this wonderful society that is much better than everyone elses.
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Well...for those who ask for odinary Chinese people's feedback....
Those angry 'flame' and criticise about biased western media all over the internet are the odinary Chinese people's normal reaction, at least for 99.99% of Chinese odinary people including myself that's the way it is.
The ironic thing is those western media recovered from shock didn't reflect what they did wrong but anylsis why Chinese people react that way as it feels they were always right and others are always wrong.
Look at what they have done to Africa, Africa people(most) don't even speak their own language nowadays(culture genecide)
Look at what they have done to Arabs, helpless arabs suicide trying to make their voice be heard.
They always point finger at others, to be honset I think this is their policy and strategy to run their country because this will always make their own people feel more satisfied when compare with others and they just love this feeling(addicted).
etc, etc
For me those endless biased report already made me disgust-proof long ago. I duno why i write these today cos normally i prefer more 'calm' words but imho, James,
West need someone to give them a lesson and they are just accelerating the speed that day comes by themselves.
If you love to feel good when compare with others go report on Mars!
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China is an old country with 5000 years of hisoty. But on the other hand, the new China is a very young country with less than which hasn't even celebrated its 60th brithday yet.
Please have a read about Chinese morden history. Have a look at where China's Human rights was 70 years ago? where it was 50 years ago? and where it was 30 years ago? I guess it will help you to understand the now-a-day China much better.
Yes, nobody can dissagree that China has got problems. But at least, we should see how CCP has changed over the past half centry.
Once again, China is a very young country. Loads of social systems in this country need to be improved. And please allow time for that to happen. CCP is using "one country, two systems" in HongKong. Have a look at Taiwan's (which has a very similar culture to mainland china) political history for the past 30 years, I personally believe things will change eventrually.
Meanwhile, please please please stop being too optimistic, and start to fill this blog with some sunshine.
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Hi James,
If you would make a list of reasons why comments on your blog should be moderated first before being posted, you would, in my opinion, come up with a pretty useful list for the CCP to explain why freedom in China should be "regulated".
Aren't there always people who think that they know better about how things should or should not be done in a certain way?
Like others, I'd also like to acknowledge your persistent effort in trying to understand China from a Western perspective and to bring people into constructive debates (even if you often ends up being the squeezed "filling" of an intellectual sandwich).
Sadly, I think you will probably no longer fit for your current job, when the day comes that you understand China more profoundly. Deeper compassion often comes hand in hand with deeper understanding, which might blunt your intellectual edges.
China doesn't need sympathizers. Enough of them are already out there.
China needs constructive criticizers--which, its people will ultimately learn and appreciate, once they realize China's true strength.
Only a confident person knowing his/her own strength possesses the courage to admit to his/her mistakes.
Please know that many of us value and respect your critical and constructive reporting on China.
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I read what seemed to be a balanced article about china, in many ways pretty positive.
But then I read the comments, and they are full of chinese people complaining about "negative stories about china".
It seems EVERYTHING is affected by your starting point. If you are used to zero criticism, then even a positive article with a few negative points sounds like "bashing".
If readers feel that this article was bashing china then they really need to get out more.
As the article points out, a lot of progress has been made for 99.9% of chinese people.
Judging rights and freedoms by the experience of the majority isn't particularly relevant though. It's how many rights and freedoms you retain when you fall foul of the authorities that is more important.
Its interesting that i've never noticed any of the devout chinese defenders address the issue of the 100s of chinese locked up indefinitely without trial simply for writing critical articles on the web.
You don't have to agree with them. You don't have to read what they write. Maybe even I don't agree with them. But surely no-one in china can ever feel completely safe or free when they know such things can happen in their country?
(nb: for those who have trouble understanding criticism, i'd rate this post as mildly, but politely critical of certain aspects)
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. At 2:42pm on 04 Aug 2008, Russsia007 wrote:
Human right in China is far better than Britain, at least the Chinese don't have to worry about being stabbed by teenagers in front of their own door!
### Hi Russsia 007,
You are an utterly naive guy! If our China is full of people like you, it will be a disaster for our country!
Ordinary Chinese people need journalists like James to cry out for them for their human rights. I did not see any point of that james hates Chinese.
Many Chinese people, even they have received higher education, can not distinguish between China, the government, and the ruling party. James points his finger at the government, but not at the Chinese people.
But James's knowledge about Chinese people, just like many Chinese persons on this site, is poor. On his mind, Chinese people only means those living in the cities, but not including those in the rural region.
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James----not the best article you've ever written, in my opinion !
I can see that you are trying to instigate a debate about two disparate arguments : one is that China has no freedom; and the second one is that China DOES have freedom (even if only relative to the previous generation).
But , your article simply fails.
You are not comparing "like with like" in trying to set out your 2 "arguments".
The simple fact must surely be: there is either freedom or.......NOT. It does not matter if there is a bit more freedom compared to 20 years ago or not.
In political terms freedom is simply whether or not a society chooses its own government, sets its own laws, allows its citizens to change such governments and laws, allows freedom of speech, generally or wholly freedom of the press and news, freeedom to do anything that the society's elected representatives have agreed should be legal...........and all such things that we in the West take for granted. How fortunate we are.
China has none of the above---period !
There are also "Inalienable Human Rights", which do have international definitions if the reader cares to look them up: though basically they are often abbreviated to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". These are considered the norm for a civilised society. To achieve them, it must logically follow that a framework is set in place ( elections, freedom of speech and the press, independent judiciary, etc etc) which are completely absent in China.
One of the most "human" of inalienable rights is the right of reproduction----
China does not even allow that !
Do you know how many times the United Nations has issued Human Rights Violations evidence against China ?: the number is now in the tens of thousands. It is amazing , as a large country which sits on the UN Permanent Security Council and should be setting an example of inalienable human rights (like the other Permanent Members)........that China is allowed to remain at the UN at all.
So there is no real scope in your most recent article, James, for the usual debate and "pro's and con's" and differing views.
China, ( along with similar nightmare states such as North Korea, Iran,Zimbabwe and other examples).......is a police state, ruled by unelected tsars who allow citizens no say in law-making, no right of speech or worship, no press freedom, no right to form trades unions, no rights to protest :
who decided it is a crime (resulting in 20 years imprisonment and torture or death) to have in your possession a picture of His Holiness The Dalai Lama ? The Tibetan people ? No. The Chinese people ? No !!!
Like all "laws" in China, they are decided by a few feudal-style emperors in The Forbidden City.
No, James : no room for any debate on your latest article.
You either have inalienable human rights or you don't.
The USA, Canada, Australia, EU and hundreds of civilised countries have inalienable human rights----they are free.
The nightmare police states ----China , North Korea, Iran, Syria,Burma, and others (which are in a world minority thank God) do not have freedom or inalienable human rights (the rights that make us civilised) ; China can't even brush such basic things aside by
claiming to be rich-----they are one of the poorest countries on earth per capita.But they are surely top of the arrogance league....does that count for anything ?
Because you make such an effort to galvanize our brains and typing skills James, I have commented on a debate which patently only has one side to any possible "debate".
But the saddest issue is perhaps not the total lack of inalienable human rights in China : it is the fact that so many of the citizens of that country hide their eyes and persuade themselves that they do have freedom and all the rights of civilised countries.
Sad or what ?
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re comment 13
Emm, How much money has China given Taiwan? The fact is that certain parts of what you wrongly (in my opinion) consider to be 'China' have been far more successful both economically and politically than the PRC has been. Only someone who has been brainwashed would consider China to be better off than Taiwan.
Most of the Chinese posters on here seem to see 'anti-Chinese' forces who 'don't understand Chinese culture' in every BBC article. May I posit that that is because you have been brought up in a system where there is only 1 'correct' way of thinking? Do you understand the irony of criticising 'the West' for any non-glowing approval of the CCP whilst you yourself make critical statements about 'the West'? The difference is we can accept and often agree with your criticisms, something you simply cannot abide 'foreigners' doing.
PS: Many people in parts of Britain (e.g. Scotland) DO support Britain splitting up. They have the right to exercise that opinion freely and enforce that change if they so wish at the ballot box, and no-one in other parts of the UK would deny them that right - that's a degree of freedom that doesn't exist under the PRC
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Hey Manchestercat, why don't you go back to China then? Then at least your taxes will help pay for some official's son to do his Masters in England - which will help our economy even more.
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It seems that much of this debate is muddied by the failure of its contributors to distinguish between 'positive liberty', i.e. the freedom to fulfill one's potential, and 'negative liberty', i.e. the freedom from external interference, as components of 'freedom'.
I believe that Western condemnation of the Chinese government generally arises from its perceived unwillingness to promote negative liberty within China, rather than a failure to further positive liberty: While the rapid improvement in living standards for hundreds of millions of Chinese is a huge achievement for the Chinese government, I suspect that criticism by the West will continue until attempts to achieve negative liberty in China are seen to be made.
I expect that one significant reason for this are the perceived difficulties of achieving these two types of liberty:
- For all citizens of a developing country like China to enjoy the same degree of positive liberty as their Western counterparts would likely take years, if not decades, of good governance combined with the right economic climate.
- For China's people to achieve negative liberty comparable to that enjoyed in the West, all that need be done is for the Chinese government to cease acting to restrict those freedoms that Westerners generally regards as inalienable rights of free people e.g. freedom of speech and expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of worship, the right to vote and stand for election, equality before the law, etc. Obviously, the time frame over which this could potentially occur is relatively short compared to the years and decades that would be necessary to promote positive liberty in China.
In short, my point is that while China is certainly becoming more free over time, our Chinese contributors to this discussion could better understand continued Western criticism of the Chinese government in the context of the widely-held perception in the West that the government is unneccesarily restricting the progress of negative liberty in China. This, of course, is not to say that Westerners do not recognise and applaud China's achievements in promoting positive liberty.
I hope that helps the discussion.
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Two comments I'd make
1) Every other successful state in East Asia had a highly authoritarian government when it built up its economy. Singapore continues to be ruled by a single party, though opposition parties exist and do contest elections. (For that matter, Britain's Industrial Revolution was established well before the parliamentary system became democratic.)
2) Though I'm sure that someone with technical knowledge can get round internet blocks, I doubt that many can do this without their government spotting it.
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Manchestercat
"What freedom do British people enjoy? MPs can use tax payer's money to pay their sons or wifes for internship or secretary work. Sure if this is disclosed by Chinese media or forum, the MP will definitely step down and immediately sacked and put into prison if it is severe. However, nearly all British MPs can spend their allowance in the way whatever they like, the public simply can do nothing but angry. BBC has freely reported this scandal. What changed since then? Nothing!"
If the British public sees problems with how the MP's spending their money, they can definitely vote them out. Whereas in China, this is at the goverment's mercy entirely. Without the government's approval, would any of the Chinese media be able to report about corrupted officials? The government is definitely selective about what they let the media report.
"What freedom do British people enjoy? Free election? Funny! Labour, Conservative, Lib-democ. They are basically the same. Why the voter turing up rate was so low (30%? 40%?) year after year. Because simply whatever which party is in power, the policy is more or less the same. I cannot see any benefit of free election. The election campaign cost huge money, huge public resource, and achieve nothing! Why will Chinese follow this stupid system?"
Please do more research before you say the parties pretty much the same. Your argument is also fundamentally flawed: the system does not forbid you from having your own opinion and form your own political group from it. If you manage to get enough support, you have a chance in the parliament. So everybody has the freedom to express and do something about what he/she believes. Starting your own political party in China? I don't think you can.
"What freedom do British people enjoy? Free regious belief? Less than 10% of whole British population go to Church, majority British people simply believe nothing, just like many Chinese do. What will happen if one "religious" group try to seige your parliament and force the government to grant them legal position and to arrest the professor who wrote an article of critising them? This is exactly what FLG did to Chinese government (actually that time Chinese government even did know what is FLG)?"
How many British people are religious isnt really the point here, I don't know what you are trying to argue from this. The point is, you don't need the UK government's consent to start your own 'religion' of any sort if you want to. Whereas, in China, you can't form your own church without the government's approval. What do you think 'underground church' means in China? Bunch of criminals or terrorists that the government finds threatening?
"What freedom do British people enjoy? Free giving birth baby as many as you like? Oh, don't be silly. You just finished complaining that China is a bigger polluter and green house emmisioner. Now you want China to have more people to add to this? With 1.3 billion people and one fifth world population are Chinese, you still want more? If you really care about human rights and think Chinese peple's life are so miserable, prefer and no birth control in China, how about China simply send 10 million people to Great Britain every year? Will you accept them? Why not? Britain does have free giving birth, but I am really sick my tax being paid to the parents or single mum who simply just gave birth, but no education to their children and leave their children become hoody and stab innocent people to death..."
Again, illogical. Curbing the population is not the only way you can achieve better environment so letting people choose how many children they want to have doesnt necessarily cause worse pollution problems.
If you are sick of paying UK taxes, you know how you can stop paying that.
"What freedom do British people enjoy? Free access to internet? Do you know how many democratic countries simply do not have facilities to get access to internet? Why? They are too poor! Have your ever visited Chinese forum? You might not know how severe they criticise the government, but I know more severe than the British forum, because majority British people simply do not have inerest in politics, because they do not trust politician anyway."
This is so typical. Just because you can criticise the leadership in some random online forum doesn't mean you can do that in public freely. Again, nothing stops the British from citicising anything, just look at those who constantly camp outside the parliament houses. How apathetic the British are to politics in your observation (which I don't agree anyway) isn't really relevant here. Is democracy the thing that stops the people from these poor countries from having internet access? I don't think so. So what are you trying to argue here? That these countries don't have good internet access is the result of democracy? What about this: the majority of North Korean people don't have internet access because they have a commuist government - does this sound right?
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I am shocked by so many angry comments from some of my Chinese counterparts. I was wondering if you guys actually read today’s blog.
May I suggest that
1. Can you please calm down and reason, instead of jumping on the fence and shouting?
2. Can you not claim that you are representing the rest of the (1.3 billion -1) Chinese?
3. Can you not mistake your own interpretations of the blog or other people’s comments to what they really are?
Thanks for reading.
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aeroarchie
You are missing the point here. Whether Hu and the likes are popular right now isnt really relevant here. Tell me what you would expect the diligent police officers at the Tiananmen Square would do if a man shows a big sign saying something against Hu. I can guarantee the arrest of this man within minutes. Does the popularity of Hu and the leaders among people make the arrest acceptable? I don't think so.
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Well done piece. As my parents are fond of saying, their parents had some good time in their lives (educated in the west, middle class before year 49) and their children are living better lives (educated in the west, middle class again). They were the generations denied everything, materially and spiritually. And personally I think, just because of that, they should be left alone to enjoy their once a life time experience – watching Olympic alive without ridicule. It is crude to crush their joy.
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Robetzhao claimed that the
rural population of China are actually "slaves"...
Is that why the ancient land tax, the one that all imperial dynasties and even the supposed "FREE" China of Chiang kaishek had in place over the peasants of China, was rescinded by today's "communist" Chinese government just two years ago? No taxes makes for better slaves? You are laying on a bit thick, dont you think?
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solzhenitsyn once said that russia had a different histroy and culture with that of the west, and couldnnot be reconciled with the western style libral democracy . i think china is the same.
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Frieston wrote:
"Full FREEDOM to China meansthat the less than 10 developed countries will have more control of China by setting up opposite parties fighting against each other all the time, and nothing can be achieved. We Chinese know well of your stragety and we will not be fooled by you."
===============
Two points:
1. The idea that a multi-party system leads to nothing being achievable is totally flawed. The world's most economically successful countries are all democracies. What I find puzzling is that many Chinese take the view that the west doesn't have sufficient respect for Chinese people, but then come up with the contradictory argument that, in essence, the Chinese aren't sophisticated enough to have a pluralistic political system involving mutliple parties without it descending into chaos. Seems a bit patronising to your own people if you ask me.
2. The idea that the western countries encouraging China to be freer is a "strategy" designed to hold China back is utterly risible, for a simple reason. Firstly, Western countries clearly believe that democracy is the best system of govt, and the most effective. Whether you agree with that or not, it's pretty undeniable that it's what Western countries tend to think. So why would they want to export that system, which they believe is a good system, to a country they hate and want to hold back. The prevailing western view, if anything, is that China's one party system is likely to, at some stage in the future, impede its economic development (again, you may disagree, but it's what the west thinks), so surely if western countries wanted to hold China back, they'd encourage it to keep the one party system it has!
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As a Canadian I believe I have more freedom than most. While living and working in China, I found that I was very welcome. Often, out on the street, I heard 'mei gua ren' (American) from passers-by. My immediate response was'bu shi, jia na da ren' literally translated as ' no bloody way, I'm Canadian' What a change. I never found more welcoming people in all my wordly travels. I disagree with much that the government does but I also disagree with much that western governments do. The question really is, 'Is the country the government or is it the people? If the former, I don't see much difference between the PRC and the USA. Ditto for the latter.
Brian Saskatoon
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"Freedom in China". What a grand topic.
I heard that when British was colonizing, ruling Hong Kong, the Chinese people there were treated like second (or third) class citizen with no "human rights" they keep talking about today. but, by the time it was about to be returned to China, UK suddenly demanded Chinese government to grant them this freedom, that freedom ...and all the rights...
You believe they really care about you, your freedom? Give me a break.
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The article on freedom in China made two points that anyone living in China would see as conflicting with the reality.
Reynolds' comment that people can "buy their own house (a law protecting private property was passed in 2007)" is misleading. One can buy a house or more probably an apartment, but all land is leased from the Communist government. Current residential leases are only 70 years, which means that one's investment, once inflation cools, could rapidly deteriorate.
The leases are often interrupted. Developers bribe government officials for the right to build on land. People are evicted. Compensation is given, but it is rarely fair or adequate. There have been so many stories on these incidents that I'm surprised Mr. Reynolds did not comment on this.
He also seems to subscribe to the idea that the Han Chinese can only have one child. Chinese can only have one child for free. To have a second or third child, parents must pay local government officials. The cost is most often around 10,000 yuan, but this varies considerably depending on who the government officers are and what connections the parents have. One man I met, who has three daughters, was able to have the second child for only several hundred yuan, whereas his third child cost him 10,000.
Other ways of having more than one child also exist. One mother I met is getting a doctor to make a false report that her first child has "mental problems". She will then take that report to an official to get an exemption to the one child policy. Money and connections will grease the wheels, of course.
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It seems that the West is obsessed with civil political rights, and unwilling to recognize how social economic rights have progressed. I wish the West better acknowledged the achievements.
But in the end, what really matters, is how the Chinese feel themselves. The problem is that we will never know how they truely feel. They cannot access a free media and with a partial legal system it is better to be careful than sorry.
However, I believe the Chinese are a pretty happy people.
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why i can't post my comment??!
Gee..
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I want to say: "Good job, James."
coz you've spent time and made effort to understand China and investigate the situation here.
What i also want to add is: Do more of those, James. investigate further, and more specific to each points you raised in your post. You'll find lots more.
James, you've been in China for a while, about 2 years, right? do you think there is a possiblity that, most Chinese people they can figure out the points you mentioned in this post? Since they've been in this country for all their lives.
Also, can you try to provide solutions to the points you made in this post.
Then, investigate the cost of your solutions, and cost/benefit ratio of your solutions.
Cheers, Wish you safty in Xinjiang, and looking forward to read your next post.
Take care
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Some people might think the restrictions are unreasonable. But the Chinese government thinks the restrictions are important to ensure social stability, which is the vital prerequisite for economic development. Without economic development, people can’t enjoy true freedom. Try to imagine, what’s the meaning of allowing people to access internet without blocking, if he/she can’t afford a computer or internet service fee?
In many westerners’ eyes, freedom of press and political participation may be an important part of their lives, because they have less worry about the basics: accommodation, education and healthcare. Their country is so rich to make them not to worry about the basics.
For Chinese, this is simply not the case. China is still a developing country and it is still focus on solving the basics. Not all the people can afford their children to enter university. Not all people are covered by the country health care system. Not all people have a proper apartment to live. If you ask an ordinary Chinese people what they want most? They probably would tell you they want a good flat, a good job, good education for their children and good healthcare. They are not likely to concern too much about making public speech until they secure the basics for their family.
On the other side, there are still many unsolved issues in China: unbalanced economic development in different regions, corruption, ineffective education system, expensive healthcare, problem with minority groups, etc. And the government can’t stand firmly if there is absolute freedom of press and criticisms.
Anti-corruption is also a long and difficult task. Because lots of Chinese officials and their family have already been enjoying the advantage of corruption, and they are holding high position in China, how do you expect them sacrificing their own benefits and change the system. The only driving force is the pressure from people and the conscience of the leaders. But this is not a problem that can be solved overnight.
Therefore, when people from the developed region comment Chinese issues, they must first know the history of China and know the current situation. What development stage China is currently in. What the Chinese people most needed. Blindly comparing the life of Chinese people and the life of people in developed countries won’t help to deeply understand the problem.
China is huge both in its population and territory. It has an unfortunate history in the past 200 years. It has just stepped into modern society in the latest 30 years, thanks to Deng Xiaoping’s right decision to reform and open China. You can’t expect all the problems to be solved over night. Rushing into the full western style system is just not the right way. China is developing at its own pace and own way. And this is the best way for China.
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To be honest, Reynold is quite decent compared to some other Journalists from the west. At least he still tried to start from two points, or at least those two points he thought was correct. Most of the Western Journalist especially from US and Germany only report distorted story and covered up everything the could possibly add any good to China.
I used to read Washington post John Pomfret's blog, but the guy would always disappear when there is no bad news to write, despite he married a Chinese wife.
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to the people who criticise james because it appears he only wants to say bad things about china -
all governments are routinely shown in a negative light by the western media, not just the CCP. stories where individuals contest for justice against hegemonic institutions tend to get a good response from western audiences. this is a narrative that repeats itself time and again in western culture, from the bible to star wars.
this 'bias' has been described here as a politically motivated effort to bring shame on the chinese people. for all its faults, western news is written the way it is for reasons far more nuanced than simple spite.
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When I was in France, oneday I saw a TV program concerning Beckham and his maids. by the end the commentator made a remark: in France, the media does not have liberty to report such things.
Different people have different understanding of freedom, and the extend of freedom. It is true that UK seems to enjoy more freedom than any other nations and more teen mothers and sex scandals on newspaper.
In China citizen has less freedom in politics. That's for sure. But what you are talking about is a very shallow topic. I have to question the quality of BBC, seriously. this seems to be a question raised by a high school boy.
We like freedom. and we definately know that no international human right organization really cares about the rights of ordinary Chinese people, unless they commits a crime or flees overseas for corruption.
And I wish those savior organizations and just reporters would realize that mocking a nation by drawing silly conlusions is also violation of human right
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I have to say I agree with Post 1 and 5.
When talking about what kind of freedom the Chinese people enjoy, you threw out two competing ways to look at it:
one by the so called "international human rights group";
and the other by the PRC government.
So what about the views of the Chinese people themselves?
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Continuing from my last comment:
I guess you did not even bother to mention the views of the Chinese people because those views do not matter to you at all.
In my view this omission shows how much you really care about the freedom of Chinese people.
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To liuye1999,
1000 monks have disappeared from Tibetan monastries and are being held in labour camp around the county. They are being beaten, starved, tortured and killed for peaceful protests against their oppression.
Reports are coming through, by people risking their lives to do so, from Lhasa detention centre of torture, starvation of killings by Chinese police. Those they do leave have severe physical and mental problems.
A chinese man was recently arrested and sent to 1 years hard labour for taking pictures of a school which collapsed after the earthquake.
I could go on for long time.....
Yes you can look at faults in every country, but nothing as shocking and disgraceful as this. This is not the behaviour of a modern, civilised society.
Chinese people should stop looking at excuses and comparisons to other countries, and set your own high standards.
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Reply comments 56, Senlin.
Just like many british people working in China, I am here to promote mutual understanding between China and Great Britain, and hopefully we would have a better world, more open-minded people etc...
In your theory, James Reynold should move back to GB since China is such a miserable country ...
Write sth making sense next time, don't make silly questions!!!
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I find your blog as objective as possible. I have an experience of both having lived in China and living in a formerly communist country (Poland). I do see that the Chinese fell and are much more free than they were a generation or so ago. But I do see as well that they still do not have as much freedom as they deserve. And I'm not sure the Olympics, with thousands upon thousands of people evicted from their homes, silenced, persecuted, marginalized for the sake of 'peaceful Olympics' will actually help much in this regard. Time will tell. But what is most telling perhaps is the reaction of many Chinese in this discussion. This kind of fierce attacks on the alleged prejudice and bias in your reporting only shows how much the Chinese still need to learn. They do not yet understand that as a global power they will come under an intense scrutiny. That's not only perfectly normal, it's also beneficial for the Chinese themselves.
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So, there is freedom of enterprise but housing, education and healthcare are no longer the preserve of the state. According to the von Hayek school of rightwingery, this is true freedom!
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dj1979,
I definitly think that you need to learn more from the Chinese.
Thanks
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
My comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules?
I don't know why my comments broke the rules? It's the second time that the moderators remove my comments! And give no reason to me! Is this so called democracy? Is is so called freedom?
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James well done. it is a very good article.
I am not quite sure why you got so much critisism for puely stating some facts (maybe could be more accurate about one child policy but not really matter). But as you know about that 100 years' humiliation and all the distrust between the Chinese people and western government/media, you may understand the hostile feeling here.
Most Chinese people I know are happy with their life and optimistic about the future. That might be more important than having an open election or an independent religion.
However I do want to say to my fellow Chinese friends please allow different opinions. Don't always jump up when somebody point out there is something missing in our system.
We have more than 1.3 billion people allowing defferent opinions will be good for social steadibility and development eventually.
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It just struck me how relevant some parts of this discussion are for the short BBC guide by David Feng "Dos and Don'ts for Beijing visitors". The author said i.a:
In the West I see books saying it is not a good idea to talk about politics or religion. I think the same goes for China.
I'm sorry to say it's a very lame attempt to make the situation in China apper just the same it is in the West. What David Feng fails to say is that talking about politics and religion in the West is purely a matter of individual choice and manners, and all that can happen to someone who raises political topics against the wish of others is their impatience, while in China it is a very dangerous thing to do that can really disrupt someone's life. To put it crudely: freedom in the West is regulated by manners, while in China it is limited by ideology.
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#82
rrrrzzzz, I've already been to China twice (2003 and 2005/6), in total for more than a year and I want to go back at least once more for a year. And I'd really appreciate if you respected my judgement as a person who knows China and has an experience of living in a formerly autocratic country and who has many friends among ORDINARY Chinese people, especially the youth. We all have something to learn from one another. What is needed is the will to learn. And I'm afraid not all Chinese have this will.
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dj1979,
Your comments make sense. However, I am afraid of that many of the ORDINARY Chinese people you met in China are not really ORDINARY, if they could speak English with you. Most of them belong to the upper class in China. Like rrrrzzzz, this person can not be considered an ORDINARY person. I think he/she is among those elites in China's poupulation, though he/she is such an elite who has little knowledge about ORDINARY Chinese peopel.
Many of the so called new generation of Chinese were grown up in an isolated enviroment. I have met a professor from China, who even aged around 40's, did not know at all about the Great Leap Forward movement happened in 1957-1960, during which many ORDINARY starved to death during that GREAT movement - I think the progeny of those survived such movements, and still live in those regions, or evicted from Beijing for the Olympics, are really ORDINARY Chinese people! I ususaly do not use the term citizen to describe them - they are certainly not the citizen of this country, or you have to use the term, they are the second or third class of citizen.
Facing a new generation Chinese who do not know their country's past, who do not know their country's real situation, what do you expect from them? only arrogance! They even do not know China needs to learn from the Western people - even though most current achivements were acquired by learning from the West.
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To 65:
Mind you, all of those "most economically successful nations" are all colonial powers in the 1800s, with the possible exception of Japan, who was propped up by the US as a counterbalance to Communism in the 50s.
And the US was propped up by war profiteering. It is one of the only country whose homeland (the continent) was not ravaged by World War II (if you do not count the balloon bombs the Japanese sent that killed an American family).
This would have to make one wonder, if the greenback should be green or crimson.
To James:
Well done. I see your effort in understanding the Chinese society from a Western point of view. Carry on.
However, contrary to popular beliefs that a lot of Chinese flee from China due to political repression, most of them actually came for a better education for their children and a better chance for their children, since in China, there are just too many competitors for the few chances at a better-than-average post-secondary institution, and most of these competitors are quite competent.
As to the one-child policy, please look at India and do a comparison. Countries like these two simply cannot afford the luxury of having more than one child per family. China is already struggling to feed its growing population, so it's probably a good idea to curb it a bit so that the growing needs can be met more easily. In North America or in Europe, this is a non-issue because there they have enough land or money to feed their population.
For the Chinese posters who fiercely attack you, I think I have a reason for that. All the intelligent readers are probably aware of bullying and the victim's psychology. China had been bullied for over two centuries now; first the Opium wars, the opening of her gates, the establishment of special foreign zones on her soil, the abandonment of the sovereignty of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan, The ravages of a long and bloody civil war backed by foreign powers, the long and bloody Sino-Japanese Front of WWII, and the endless repression form the West as an authoritarian state. I'd call that "bullying on a national scale". Now that she's finally out of her predicament, her children has to be fiercely defensive of their mother because they fear that the bullying will start again.
To the China-bashers:
It's interesting that in a recent BBC article, it stated that "More people under 35 years of age regards China as an ally rather than a threat than people over 35 years of age."
The link is here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7540871.stm
Think about the attitude and the time these people are born. McCarthyism and the Cold War couldn't have affected anyone, could it?
Rather than antagonizing China, would you please provide some constructive criticism and regard it as a potential ally, or if you don't want to do that, a potential tool?
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In Early 1980s when I was a college student at Beijing university, there were many debates about freedom/reform etc.
In fact the discussions went much deeper
than described in this bolg.
One conclusions I still remember well, it is not the relative degree of freedom that matters. It is the what to do next and how to achieve more.
It is apparently that some 80 percent of Chinese population now agree that Chinese government has earned the credibility.
Human rights groups have poved themselves clueless, irrelavent (at best) and suspicious in their intentions in last thirty years, as far as China is concerned.
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I like your report James. There has been a constant development to the quality of your reporting. You sound seeing things more 'from within' than earlier when you started the job as China correspondent.
I wish you well to continue more objective reporting in the future.
Having said that, there is a room of further improvement in terms of objectiveness.
Let me point out one example: "But if you compare things to the way they are in other countries - or even to the promises that China itself has made - then the average Chinese person has a tougher time."
Which countries are you talking about? I guess sub-consciously you are referring to Britain. Then, it is not fair.
If you compare China to Zimbabwe, North Korea, Cuba, etc., what would you say about average Chinese person's freedom?
Also one thing you fail to understand about the Chinese people. They are sceptical about western-style democracy. Especially to those who have privilege to live abroad, in Europe and the US, they have seen how people in the West are apathetic about political process, e.g. low election turn-outs, the spins conducted by politicians to 'buy' votes, etc.
Chinese cannot see any point of having political discourse, since the West is not having any anymore anyway. Whoever controls the government really doesn't matter, if you think about it.
As long as people can consume more, owe more on their credit cards, and so on, does it really matter what the politicians are doing?
Think about Labour and Tories in Britain, are their differences to each other really matter anymore? New Labour have won three elections. In 2001 and 2005 however, the turn-outs were very low compared to 1997 landslide victory. Since Britain had been more prosperous in 1997-2005, why bother to even listen to what the Tories had to say? Let's just stick to the status quo.
At the same token, look at China's progression from 1978 until now. Why should the Chinese be bothered to change the current regime? Why should they even be bothered to listen to the West's lectures on freedom, democracy, and human rights?
It is hypocrisy to ordinary people who criticise the Chinese government on serious human rights issues in this blog, whilst typing them on a Chinese-made keyboard, viewing on LCD monitor, well basically computer set.
But James, don't let this refrain you from buying Chinese-made laptops/equipments to do your job as a reporter. I think you are getting better with it, so all the best wishes mate!
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#87 dj1979, how many minorities are killed in the UK race riots? Are these taboos in the UK society?
Sincerely, you need to learn to speak Chinese. Otherwise, your childhood indoctrination kicks in, and you persistently misinterpret the Chinese things.
You should also respect the Chinese way of life. Christians always want to convert.
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With regard to the interpretation of freedom, I side with one of the greatest western philosophers, Jean Jacques Rousseau, who is a great progenitor of modern western political philosophy and whose political thoughts continue to serve as one of the lasting foundations of contemporary western political systems.
In so-called democracies, Rousseau insisted, people are "only free during elections". Once "they leave the legislature, they are chained again". This claim might seem to be radical to some yet it illuminates the fact that even people who have the right to choose their own leaders would inevitably suffer from many insurmountable democratic deficits. The contemporary British, Rousseau would vociferously argue, are not free either otherwise British solders would not have ended up dying in Iraq, when most British think that these solders should not be sent at the first place.
Rousseau's another assertion in the Social Contract is that "the state has the responsibility to FORCE people to be free." This applies explicitly to what the Chinese government did to the Falun Gong cult. I myself have relatives and friends who used to practice it before and they were crazy: they refused to take medicines when getting sick and one of them became so mad that he insisted that he has a third eye on his forehead; another still believes that she has a magical wheel in his body that she wanted to cut herself and to obtain the wheel! I've heard Li Hongzhi, the founder of the cult, speaking from Youtube and he is just not a man of reason or morality. Therefore, those who became mentally sick as a result of engaging in the cult have lost their ability to be free. It is thus morally justifiable and socially responsible for the Chinese government to step in and "force them to be free".
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Today, talk of freedom has often left the value of freedom in the dark. There are notions of freedom (e.g. 'doing what you want') that's simply not desirable. That is not what people fought and died for in the West. That's not what we ought to be promoting, nor is it something to be proud of if you have it.
According to the Enlightenment tradition that founded our liberal democracies, freedom for the individual, and political freedom for the citizens are valuable because they enable self-determination: the ability to work out one's own (or national) life. Self-determination may or may not be desirable (because it is hard work), but it is valuable, and something we all have an inherent right to.
But self-determination is exactly what Chinese people don't have. When you 'freedoms' are at the mercy of your government, you do not have self-determination. When your complaints against the government is confined to the politically innocent banter at coffee shops, your people does not have political self-determination. Such 'freedom of speech' is cosmetic.
Cosmetic freedom can be bartered for political power, which is what the Chinese government does. But no genuine freedom that paves the road to self-determination can be bartered.
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Why doesn't any one us the Communism to describe China or Red China. To my knowledge they still are a Communism Country. What changed?
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James,
This is a good article, and thank Chengduexpress for clarifying a few issues. To those who jump on defense, you may have not dealt with different levels of officials yet in China, or maybe you have, but with help of your "network". You probably felt so lucky that you had insiders to help you. But for a lot more common Chinese, they are not that lucky. Corruption at lower levels of the government is horrible.
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A well balanced article James with a few errors, there are anumber of exceptions which allow people to have more than one baby. I have spent much of the last two years in Sichuan with my wifes family and found that the average Chinese has as much freedom , if not more than those in the UK. For example they are not spied on constantly by CCTV cameras; they can walk the streets in safety without the fear of being attacked by mindless gangs of youths; they can choose to dress as they wish without being persecuted unlike Moslems in the UK; they can worship their own religion and I point out that Christianity is a recognised religion and the fastest growing religion in China. The ordinary Chinese people I know feel free to discuss their views on the political leadership and are generally happy with their leaders and the direction in which their country is being led. Britain has been led by a dictator for the last ten years; admittedly elected but nevertheless by virtue of a huge majority and the power to pack his cabinet with his cronies, still a self serving dictator.
Whilst every aspect of Chinese life has improved, most aspects of British life have deteriorated so why should the Chinese people not be happy with their government?
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For any society, club or forum for that matter, there has to be rules or laws for the benefit of the majority. China applies the rules more harshly than other countries but the majority appear to appreciate that because of this they live in a more harmonious society than crime ridden Britain, where openly criticising the government can also get you in trouble; people have been arrested for wearing T shirts in the vicinity of the houses of parliament and Downing St. bearing slogans which criticise Blair. I somehow doubt under the present government that it would be possible to hold the sort of student protest that took place in Tiannemen, without interference from the police or arrests taking place. Total freedom is an illusion in the west which is used to constantly criticise the Chinese. Most Chinese would be horrified with the degree of restricted freedom in the UK. Britain could learn much from the harmony in which the Chinese live with each other.
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To heyone comment16:
When you criticise others, can you follow the basic sense of logic please? Thank you! I find it very embarrassing even reading your comments – embarrassed for you frankly. I would not have the courage putting the comments like yours in public. I think lots of other Chinese readers here have the same kind of feeling while reading your courageous postings.
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James,
I actually think this is one of your more objective articles, because you actually made the effort to show the views of two sides without adding too much of your own spices and flavors.
Try going onto online forums in China, and you'll be surprised to find the intensity of debates on those forums. In fact, internet access has improved drastically over the last year. When I was in Shanghai last week, I discovered that google.com is now fully accessible, and you could find all the nasty Tiananmen Square images of '89 at your own leisure. Also, try visiting a local court house or National People's Congress session in any city. Many of the cases and discussions there are now open to the public viewing, as long as you sign in with a valid social security ID card. There you'll be able to get the latest of what the government is trying to change and the problems they are trying to address.
Also, talk to college students. I had a very interesting chat with a grad student from the China's Northwestern University Law School. He was very open about many so-called sensitive issues, such as Tiananmen Square 1989, political reform, the rule of law, etc. Most importantly, I was totally blown away by the amount of knowledge he knows about the West, mostly the United States. I also met some of his peers and all of them demonstrated tremendous interest and knowledge in America's political and legal system. They also told me that almost every college student in China is now learning English, because Boston Legal, CSI, Lost, and Prison Break have met explosive popularity among China's newly educated middle class.
Keep up the good work!
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James,
Freedom in China, will happend one day! Like it is in the Western World..
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Economically, large numbers of Chinese people are doing better than any other time in history.
Are they "democratic?" Maybe not in the Western sense, but it is up to Chinese people themselves to determine what works for them.
Dynasties were overthrown in the past. If this one does not pay attention, then there could be problems.
China's rural areas need to catch up with the cities on the coast. So there are things that need work.
They are an ancient civilization though and will find their way.
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Despite BBC's many distorted reports on China, especially during the Olympic torch relay in Europe you have written many unbiased reports on China. Salute.
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Reynold's insights are invaluable (Freedom in China, etc.) and I conclude from him 2 types of freedom:
Rich Man's Freedom and Poor Man's Freedom. This is self-evident, but sadly it's seldom held up to reality-check, i.e. the ultimate standard by which people should check their motives, desires and preferences. Anything else is abstraction.
What is lacking in China is not freedom but justice. Not the kind you argue in philosophy classes, but judicial justice - the kind that enjoys independence of operation and implementation.
Chinese justice so far has been exclusively top down; but in the West 'top-down' is counterbalanced by universal suffrage. This systemic fine-tuning is something China has yet to learn, propagate and accept.
Still on the subject of freedom, and if one is astute to the teaching and nuances of history, China deserves to be credited with its 'top down' treatment of so-called religions, i.e. all institutionalised, ideologised religious teachings and practices which finally masquerade as spirituality when pleasure is denied. Here, one must know that all religions have a tendency to institutionalise, and humans are at the root of it all.
The West loves to pay lip service to the Separation of State and Church and leaves the divide wide open to collusion between the two. Not so China. The early rulers saw to it that 'church' could never sit equal with the state. This is Chinese. This makes sense. Why don't the West respect it? Or it is using the same old trick just to trick an old dog to do something new? One wonders.
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To elduderino.
The kind weatern governments had exported democracy and freedom to Iraq and Afganistan with all the good intensions? Right? Has it worked? Show us it works before you point your fingers to tell China what to do.
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To yiyibuyi.
We Chinese do not allow different opinions? Are you sure? When I express my opinion which is different from the western media I had been told that I was a CCP spy and should be deported by the westerners in the forum. I had been accused of working for Chinese government. I had been told to go back to where I come from only because I do not agree with them. I had my posts deleted so many times while nothing in my post was extreme. Who do not allow different opinions? When Chinese community came out in force during the torch relay we were collectively accused by the media of "Chinese government organised""aggressive""using their numbers to silence Tibetans" Who does not allow different opinions?
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Well written report!
I find the following arguments shallow and annoying though:
1. be more objective;
2. have you been to China/ how long have you been in China?
3. have you spoken to ordinary Chinese?
4. you don't know China;
5. we don't like to be taught, etc.
Come on! First of all, this is a blog, it doesn't have to be objective to everyone. This is an opinion forum. You don't need to know every single tiny detail about China to write a report, you don't even have to be in China to have an opinion about China, you don't have to speak to everyone to write an article, an opinion is an opinion. Samplings can reflect the whole, too. Also, how do we know who is more "objective"? How can we prove it?
I really think outsiders sometimes know better than the locals, not always of course, but we CANNOT prove that an outsider knows less than the locals either, can we?? There are things that locals know more than outsiders but NOT all the things.
Also, I don't see anything preachy here, so I don't understand those who think they are been lectured.
Bring up something substantial next time!
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James - You miss an important point about Fredom in China.
I have lived here for many years and and walking the street I feel a lot safer than I do in the West. The Chinese believe in the rights of Society not necessarily the rights of the individual. Do a little research and compare the number of inocent people shot of mugged in the USA or UK each year to that in China and you will find that China is a far safer and more stable place than you ever dreamed.
If a few trouble makers in jail is the price of a safe society for 1.3Bn, then it seems like a fair deal to me !
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to TrickyQuinsRI
"peaceful protects against their oppression"? Where did you get such information, of course from BBC or CNN... such as these so-called world-class media. I'm an ordinary Chinese and I respect and trust western medis previously but, when I saw what they did in the coverage of Tibet in March, I'll not believe their objective and accordingly any of their reports of China. Yes China has a bad record of human right and BBC has a bad record of telling lies! How could you trust a media which showed you news photos cut by them?
use your brain, it's Olympics time why all reports are human right and Internet access? Why Tibet riot happened just several days before globle relay of the torch? Why BBC cut the photos of monks' voilence activities. It's a politicial trick for bashing China and you, just brain washed by your medias and waved flags of human right for your politicians. That's it, thanks!
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I was much more friendly to the western media before I came to Australia, while no longer to be like that. I can’t stop people commenting that “no freedom is China”, while I double how many among them have been in China themselves, let along whether they understand China.
The US was founded as a “democratic country”, while women didn’t enjoy national wide voting rights until 1920, native American in 1924 and the poors until 1964. In China everybody, no matter what nationality he or she is, has the right since the communist party came to power, although it’s not “open” election rights.
British police was empowered by law to short any terrorist suspects on the street, if they don’t follow the instruction of the police. Is there any method to ensure someone in the crowded and noisy London subway station to notice such a warning? In the so call “dictatorship” China, police is never empowered to do this.
In France, a law passed a few years ago, which forbidden students to wear any kind of mask or handcraft in schools. What kind of religion freedom they have?
When those gangsters tried to extinct the Olympic torch, what’s the rights of more than a billion Chinese (I didn’t say 1.3 billion, because some may not support the Olympics) and others who love a politics and racism free Olympics.
Did the countries Vietnam, Panama, Afghanistan or Iraqi enjoy any country rights let along people’s human rights when they were invaded by western powers?
Watched a street interview performed by not sure it’s BBC or CNN. Many of those “free Tibet” supporters interviewed even had no idea where Tibet is on the map let along the historic background of Tibet. It’s purely a joke.
Moreover, is it aligned to the concept of freedom to force every country to have similar kind of democratic system? Is it aligned to the concept of freedom to judge the level of freedom of another country according to your own standards? I really doubt it.
I am not saying Chinese enjoying more freedom than those in western, because the truth is not. Well, Roma was not built in one day. Should people to be more tolerant to let the others to improve step by step? I believe that respecting different wills and accept the difference are the essence of human rights besides some basic rights such as free from starving.
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First of all, to be clear, I am a chinese educated in US, for that matters. I am familiar with both the western democracy and china's dictatorship.
I want to comment on James observation about the freedom in china and some comments following the entry.
To be objective, we need to first look at the china's problem outside the box. That means to put aside the patriotism and nationalism. Only by that can we get a clean logic. There's no doubt that china is a dictatorship right now (yes, I am a chinese, and I love my country, but let's face that fact, shall we). This is simple based on that fact that no free election is established to hold the governement machine accountable. Other normal channels, such as free press, to check the it's power doesn't exist either. The very fact that "china shoud be under the ruiling of the communist party" is written in "constitution" is against political commen sense. The net effect of all the above political structures and controls result in a very inefficient polictical process in china, which means the need of chinese society will not be met in the most efficient way by its leadership.
Then we need to discuss what is most needed in the current china. Is it free election? Is it free press? Is it accountability? Of course these are all fundamental assets of all civilized worlds. But don't forget china is a huge nation with billions of mouth to feed. What is needed most in china right now, is simply elimination of poverty and hunger. The communist party managed to achieve that, whatever means it used. This is NON-Trivial. So when will chinese want what westerners take for granted? When a strong middle class is built up, more political voice will naturally be demanded. This is exactly what's happening right now in china. Wait 10 more years and see again.
Overall James did a fantastic observation about the changes occured in china. You captured most of the accruate picture. I'd like to comment on a few things that you pointed out that people can't do in china, since those matter the most:
• choose their government in an open election
This is the fundamental drawback in china's current political structure. Only if this barrier is removed can china achieve true freedom. You need to wait for a larger want from the chinese society to make this happen, however. Political rights are pushed by economic needs.
• criticise the Communist Party's top leaders (at least in public)
You are correct. I don't agree with one of the commenter's comment that people in china simply love the leaders. This is truely subjective. Even if you love the leader, you can't guarantee everyone does it. Even if you love leader A, you can't love all the leaders. Leaders are not meant to be loved. They are to serve, and that's their job. If they do the job right, that's what they are supposed to do. If they don't, just let somebody else do it. There's no need to attach emotional link to administration. A government should simply be a bunch of representatives of the society to do something that individuals can't do on their own.
• have more than one child (rule applies to the ethnic Han majority living in urban areas)
This is not "humane" or "understandable" by western standard. But if you look at the price of fuel and food right now, you might want to thank this policy.
• worship a religion which does not pledge loyalty to the Communist Party
Communist party's ideology is based on atheisim. That's why there is no truely, openly tolerated religions in china. I don't agree with the government's treatment to Fa Lun Gong members. Whatever wrong deeds that the members have committed, it should determined by the law, not the will of the government. If a religious member want to commit suicide, this is his/her choice. We should respect that. A mistake that many chinese commenters tend to make is to mix moral judgements with legal judgements. What chinese government did to Fa Lun Gong is an example showing the lack of division between the law and the government's will.
• access all parts of the internet (although the smartest can find ways round the firewall)
All internet should be fully opened to china. there is no doubt about it. Limited information access could only iliterate citizens. Free press to monitor governmental activities, free access to western ideologies and international criticism can only help chinese citizens to know better what they need in their homeland.
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As a chinese, I am shamed to read many comments posted above by my fellow countrymen. Please, EXCERSIE LOGICS and PRINCIPLES before you post. Don't let emotion and blind patriotism overwhelm you.
Typical mistakes I found that my fellow countrymen tend to make:
1. "Western multi-party system is illusion, and will lead to chaos".
Whether or not there is difference between various parties is not impormant, what matters is that people have choices, and are legallt protected choose freely.
Democracy if executed in the right way, chaos can be avoided. This is through civil education.
2. "Promoting democracy in china and critizing china's human rights record is a western strategy to sabortage china's stability"
People having this mind set must be brought up in 70s or even earlier. Democracy and general freedom are worldwide trends, if not the most efficient governance economically. Simply look at how many dictortaships survive and emerge as an economic power?
Although I disagree with an increasingly popular anti-china trend undergoing in the west, we the chinese need to educate ourselves what we deserve in the first place. And when doing that, please put down your patriotism and nationalism, just think as a free man.
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Yes, I agree that China don't have those missing freedoms it needs to be a great country.
The freedom to have more than one child is good for China, this will increse the population to 3 billion fast. Tibet will be all Han Chinese and no more Tibetans will live in China. More Chinese will live in western countries all over the world, soon they can take over those gov'ts.
Free elects are good for China too, the Chinese can have a leader like Saddam or Bush.
Trade unions will make China rich and powerful, this is good, workers in China can get western wages and they will live like the rich in the west. In future all the goods made in China will cost more and the west pay thru their nose for them.
As for the internet, no western country only will ever shut the Chinese up. Watch out.
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To Jiangzhe_Beijing:
"On the other side, there are still many unsolved issues in China: unbalanced economic development in different regions, corruption, ineffective education system, expensive healthcare, problem with minority groups, etc. And the government can?t stand firmly if there is absolute freedom of press and criticisms. "
What chinese people need is basic materials and living standards. But an efficient way to provide them is through democratic governance. An openly elected and media-monitored government can make sure the public budget is allocated to where it needs. Corruptions can simply be eliminated by political competition (yes, parties do fight each other, but they fight to address issues, instead of getting nothing done as many of us tend to think), people-centric media and independent judiciary. Ineffective education system is due to too much government interference in the case of china.
And finally, if a government can not stand firmly under free press and criticisms, that's exactly when you need a new one.
I am a chinese too. I think we really need to sit back and clear out the brainwashing that CCP has done to us and think from scratch that what we really need to run our country efficiently and humanely.
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Freedom is good.
No more one child, make China go over 3 bn.
Free elects, China needs it's own Bush, Blair to make wars.
Internet free and for all, so I can talk openly, unlike here.
Trade unions everywhere in China, let's make the west pay top dollar for China made.
There's big money in Religion, get in this thing.
Bad mouthing leaders in China, who is paying?
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-------Manchestercat, you are great. You said what most of us want to say, what most Chinese want to tell the west. I have to quote your comment, too, in order to let more people see it. Thank you!
Please prove us Chinese the benefit and advantage of full FREEDOM you mentioned in your article. Our history shows us that full FREEDOM will bring us civil war, instability, starving, people killiing each other, other countries invasion etc...
How many countries in the world benefit from full FREEDOM? Except the less than 10 developed countries, i cannot see full FREEDOM bringing any benefit to majority countries in the world. Full FREEDOM to China meansthat the less than 10 developed countries will have more control of China by setting up opposite parties fighting against each other all the time, and nothing can be achieved. We Chinese know well of your stragety and we will not be fooled by you.
However this does not mean we Chinese do not like FREEDOM. As you admitted in your article, today's China is the most free period in Chinese 3000 years history. We have our way to become full FREEDOM in our rhythm, not yours.
In Britain, the women only got right to vote in 1928, and now you still can not select your queen or PM freely. Different country has different political system, we Chinese are trying to find the best one for us, but definitely not UK version, nor USA version.
Please bear in mind, Chinese Version!!!
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James, thank you for your reports and advices for Chinese (although you are paid to do it). Maybe they are all true and valuable, but we will never think in your way, we will never choose what you suggest us to choose, we will never do what the west tell us to do, just because we are from China, not UK or US or any other country in the world. And we love our motherland. Save your time, we don't need it.
I think you are not intereted in helping us, you just want to finish your tasks of reporting and attract more people to come and see what you write. If you really want to do something for us, go on, let more Chinese see the ugly face of you and the west media.
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#78. "Peaceful protests" in Tibet? Hardly!
What we saw over a successsion of nights, filmed by and shown on the Western media, was horrific violence against innocent people, and their businesses and property and mob rule by monks and their supporters
Just because some of the protestors wore robes does not mean they were peaceful; in point of fact they were leading the protests!
This romantic notion of going back to a peaceful place ruled by monks is quite rubbish actually. On the BBC recently they showed original film of Tibet prior to direct rule. I find it extremely hard to imagine that most Tibetans actually wat to revert back to a highly religious and disciplinarian society dominated by an aristocracy and religious fanaticism, and where poverty is rife. This is where the Tibetan protestors go wrong; they do not want direct rule, but it's very difficult to believe they want to go back to the way it was. Does this therefore mean that they are in fact grateful for having China address those problems?!
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The actual freedom situation in China is :
1. No meaningful political elections.
At the village and town levels, there are some elections. but the candidates must first be approved by the ruling Party. And the government officials use all kinds of unlawful tactics to control the process, including intimidations. Further, the power of the elected representative is very restricted.
2. No, there is nothing to protect people who criticize the government. Sometimes the authority will let you off, sometimes it locks you up, in other words, you run your own risks. The authority wields its power arbitrarily and at will.
3. There're no "independent" trade unions.
Actually, there're no "independent" organisations of any sort. The Party doesn't allow "independent" organisations. There aren't even "independent" charity organisations. Even the Chinese Red Cross is under the control of the Party.
There're no "independent" religious organisations. A person can do his or her own religious worship.
The key words are "independent" and "organised". these are the taboos.
4. Freedom to travel is conditional and approval from the authority is required. There's no gauranteed right to travel.
All in all, the so-called freedoms you see in China today are conditional, and without gaurantee. The authority exercises its power arbitrarily and at will. What was allowed yesterday may well be prohibited today. Oftentimes the Government releases one dissident and locks up another one at the same time, just to create the illusion that they are improving.
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to # 78
not sure where did you get this info from. only god knows whether it's true. maybe yes, maybe not. but what i can tell you is that living in China for almost 30 years, while none one around me or around anybody i known has disappeared in such way, at least i am not awared of.
i think the even more scary thing it's that a UK police shot a young people in the crowded London Subway station without sufficient warning given. more rediculous is that the UK law empowers the police to do so.
we do admit that the state of human rights in China is far from perfect, and even our government and the CCP openly stated that. However, i am wondering whether any developed and "democratic" western countries ever openly said that they need to improve their human rights states. Don't tell me your system and human right state are anywhere close to perfect. you know it's far from true.
what we argued is just take a step back, before critize the others, please exam your own, and be more torlerant to let the others improve gradually.
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After living in Australia for five years, I was so disappointed that I can’t find many positive comments of China from the media. It’s too often that negative news of China attracted huge criticise. But it’s not the same for even more scary news from a “democratic” country. An example it’s that a women was stoned to death in India because she was raped by someone and deemed to be impure by people around her, and the government did nothing to prevent this from happening. And although this is not a stand along case and similar cases happen quite often in a “democratic” India, appears those “human rights” defenders and “unbiased” western media pay much less attention.
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to robertzhao
you say : ''I was disappointed by that you ignored the majority of China's people living in the rural region. Your ignorance to them just like that of the CCP. You mentioned that Chinese people had free health care before the open door policy. Please remember, it was just for people living in cities, nothing to do with the people in the rural area. Please keep in mind, those rural people have been treated as the second class citizen, if you call them citizen - they are actually slaves.''
i can't agree with you because my parent and my parenent in law are farmer living in very poor region in china, but they have benefit the huge postive change in china recently like the establishment of medical traitement , the tax free for farmer....
so please do your research firstly in the rural region!!!
Most of them are very satisfied with this chinese gov now and show their comprehension to this gov !!!
Don't be too very arbitrary , please!
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Whilst one may be grateful for all positive changes in China, and indeed it is important to write about them, do not forget to mention that people are being tortured, executed and locked up in forced labour camps every day in China. These are appalling infringements upon the freedom of many people that should not be happening anywhere in the world today.
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Reynold shows us the 'two ways' of seeing freedom, and I summarize them as the Rich Man's and Poor Man's Freedom: anything else is derivative or an elaboration, or mere abstraction. So no point in going through all that again.
For the so-called emergent China the world is keenly watching and scrutinizing, the key to its advancement isn't about getting freedom right or about economic development but justice - not the kind students discuss in philosophy classes but systemic or institutional justice whose health, implementation and survival can be guaranteed only by independence from politics.
Unfortunately in China everything is from top down, and state power and its grip on the judiciary in particular is unmittigated by universal suffrage or anything remotely approaching that.
Not everything from top down is bad, however, and I think the usual or traditional Chinese view regarding 'religious freedom' bears this out most clearly. To illustrate my point: the West is fond of paying lip service to the separation of church and state, which is all well and good. But if one would be astute to the teachings and nuance of European history, one could see that that hallowed principle also leaves the church-state divide wide open to manipulation, collusion, i.e. convergence by other means, between religion and politics, which is not all well and good in contemporary context unless democracy is, post-911, promoted to the status of religion itself.
The West is right about many things as far as time goes, or give it another couple of hundred years. But its time to look East - look 'back' if you like - and visit the wisdom of an ancient (and perhaps 'backward') culture.
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Cannot agree more ...Very fair comment. Exactly what I see. I quote it again for the world to see. Thanks.
------------------------------------------
"#78. "Peaceful protests" in Tibet? Hardly!
What we saw over a successsion of nights, filmed by and shown on the Western media, was horrific violence against innocent people, and their businesses and property and mob rule by monks and their supporters
Just because some of the protestors wore robes does not mean they were peaceful; in point of fact they were leading the protests!
This romantic notion of going back to a peaceful place ruled by monks is quite rubbish actually. On the BBC recently they showed original film of Tibet prior to direct rule. I find it extremely hard to imagine that most Tibetans actually wat to revert back to a highly religious and disciplinarian society dominated by an aristocracy and religious fanaticism, and where poverty is rife. This is where the Tibetan protestors go wrong; they do not want direct rule, but it's very difficult to believe they want to go back to the way it was. Does this therefore mean that they are in fact grateful for having China address those problems?!"
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nihaorain2007 wrote:
You wrote:
i can't agree with you because my parent and my parenent in law are farmer living in very poor region in china, but they have benefit the huge postive change in china recently like the establishment of medical traitement , the tax free for farmer....
*** Frankly, I am very sad for your parents having such a kid like you. Don't you think your parents or parents in law deserved to be respected by their own country just like those city people? They might be really satisfied. But for those people who had been badly treated for a long period, any good change will make them happy, even they are still the second class citizen. I admit that there are many good changes for them, but the fundmental has not been changed. Your parents should be treated as the same people as others. As a kid of farmers, please try to help them, shout out for rights for them! Do not be so silly, so naive, just because your parents are satisfied. Some farmers even do not know they are badly treated. They think all these are right, that's their fate!
Just think those millions of migrant workers evicted from Beijing before the Olympic game. IF your brothers, or your parents were among them, how would you think of them? Still fair? Still satisfied?
I know you might have lived a gorgeous life after you become something. But you should know much better than others living in the city, becasue you came out from a very poor region. You should help those people in those poor regions.
I know now tax is free for famers. But this was acheived by many people's efforts, including the farmers themselves. The CCP would not do it by CCP itself. Its not good enough!
Farmers are not pigs -eating full and sleeping well is not good enough for them. They deserve equal human rights as any other people living in the city.
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To WayJayth.
Outsiders know better than insiders? Indeed. The Americans thought so and they are now trapped and trying to learn from insiders.
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To TrickyQuinsRI.
Are you sure only 1000 Monks arrested? Where did you get it from? Do not tell me you get that number from Tibetan exiles or humanrights group. Iraqi exiles said their country had WMDs and should be bombed. The so call humanrights groups are hijacked by politics long time ago. They prime the public for wars which killed millions. They ignore those who die simply because of lacking food, shelters, and basic medical care.
You love all the prisoners in China? They are good people? Then persuade your government to offer PR to every one of them.
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To post 117 by Huang.
Good idea, we want that too but we want to achieve that peacefully through reforms in our Chinese way.
Are we all brainwashed by the CCP only you are the smart one do not get brainwashed? It look like to me that you are brainwashed by the west.
How do you get a democratic Chinese government overnight? Overthrow the current government first? And then what? Get a pro-west government? We will certainly see a bloodshed first, civil wars and our Country splitted into small pieces as the west's wish. NO, THANK YOU.
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It's a pity James Reynolds does not respond to the comments written here. Then we could get a real discussion going. Perhaps he does not even read them? That would be a real shame. The comments are even more fascinating than James' original article.
If I may make a suggestion: commentators who wish to debate "freedom" should do some homework first before posting. The endless ping-pong between the Chinese "version" of freedom and that of the West will get us nowhere. On what principles are the Western notion of freedom based on? On what principles are the Chinese version of freedom based on? And please do not confuse the actual political or social situations in the UK, the US, or in China, with the various notions of freedom. To say (as one commentator wrote) that British do not enjoy as good human rights as the Chinese because of the (apparently) high incidence of knife crime in large cities, simply shows that you do not know what you are talking about (are you talking about crime rates, or human rights?), and that you should do more homework before posting.
A more fruitful discussion, for example, might be between collectivism and invidualism. The question is, I suggest, not whether Chinese or Western notions of "freedom" are better, but rather what kind of society we planetary citizens of the human race want? What kind of future do we want? Let us imagine it for ourselves. And then let us ask, will we wait for our leaders to provide this for us?
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The familiar and established pattern for these forums now needs to entail the following:
James reports on an aspect of China (most entries dwell on the negative but then again which journalists spend their time finding positive stories?), the Chinese readers are then naturally upset about receiving negative press and respond with an onslaught of comparable problems in the West. Those Westerners sufficient in Mandarin would probably respond to negative reports on the West (and there are many such reports in China lets face it) with a similar backlash. These feelings are only natural.
There does seem to be a prevalent view that only those with a mainland-China education are in a position to give a valid opinion on Chinese matters. I suspect this is a form of defence as one immediately has the backing of the majority of their generation who will share similar views. If you want to hear some Westerners giving positive views on Chinese people and their fascinating nation then I suggest reading a travel book as you are obviously in the wrong place here.
On this topic, I would certainly say that the Chinese do have less freedom than their Western counterparts. However, I do not refer to freedom in a political sense but on a social level. The majority of China’s population speak as they wish and go about their daily in the same manner as those in the West. Do they ever feel political oppression or a sense of their human rights being infringed as they work, eat and socialise? No. Are they caught on CCTV footage whenever they travel to the shops? Probably not.
Where Chinese people tend to have less freedom is in their lifestyle and conforming to the expected norm. I recently heard some Chinese friends admiring how British parents are happy for their children to grow-up and do any kind of job they want. The pressures on people do not cease when they reach adulthood. They will then face pressure to find a well-paid job, marry before they are 30 and start a family all whilst saving money for healthcare and the child’s education.
I once told a friend in China about a colleague in England who had taken a reduction in salary for a job with less responsibility and pressure. This fact was met with amazement and the friend couldn’t understand why anyone would ever take a reduction in salary. These are the true restraints of life in modern-day China.
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Instead of being fixated on the idea that western-style freedom is the pinnacle of everything, it may be far more helpful to remember that there are many ways in which governments can do to advance the dignity and welfare of its people. So much has been said of the so-called lack of freedoms in China, but how many of us are open minded enough to give credit to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) for its role in the last 30 years in lifting what must easily be an estimated 400 to 500 million Chinese from conditions of poverty to a life that can be termed middle-class. If there was any man in recent history more deserving of the Nobel Prize in having brought improvements in living conditions to such a large number of people, it would be none other than the late venerable Deng Xiaoping. But, alas, the Nobel Committee, in my view, are far interested in nominating leaders who are insipid and mediocre, and of course palatable to the West, than those who truly made a revolutionary contribution to the advancement of the human race. The regurgitation of the lack of western-style freedoms in China has today become predictable and nauseating. We may wish to recall that in 1978 (around the same time that Mr Deng opened China to the world) a certain Soviet dissident, in his address at Harvard University, chided the West for its naivete in believing that liberal democracy was destined to triumph in other non-western countries.That dissident was none other than Alexander Solzhenitsyn. a darling of the west who passed away recently. The notion that there is only one route in political evolution/development, and the conspiracy mounted by western politicians and media to ostracise those countries which "fail" to follow this prescribed path must represent the height of western arrogance, undiminished even after the days of colonialism are long passed. I am even tempted to think that all this berating of Beijing for its so-called failings underscore a real fear in the West that it will not only be overtaken economically, but also politically by a China whose model of development will one day come to attract a greater following globally that anything the West has been able to achieve so far.
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"It was important for us that there be a clear voice speaking out against the Chinese government's abuse of human rights," the Rev. Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition in Washington, told AP by telephone afterward.
They erected a banner in front of communist strongman Mao Zedong's mausoleum that said "Christ is King" and knelt and prayed in Tiananmen Square.
Obviously, they are not shot as they angrily predicted earlier.
Enjoy Freedom in China!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Chinese people are free people because the Chinese goverment told them that they are free. They only listen to what their goverment to their people.
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Well said JasonHuangWJ. As I had been saying earlier, many peoples' sensitivities get in the way of a meaningful debate.
To those who seem to be arguing that liberal democracy is just as bad: I don't think any system is perfect, but as Churchill said, it's the least bad of all the alternatives ("the worst form of government except for all the others which have been tried from time to time").
Put it this way: I used to live in China, although not now. I enjoy rights in the west that Chinese citizens do not have. I am not special, and do not deserve more than a Chinese citizen gets. Everyone deserves the same rights.
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In the United States, NBC just had a story about protests in Beijing. It showed some foreigners protesting against policies in Tibet and they were quickly removed. The correspondent was able to ride in a police van that was filming.
Well I guess that answers some questions.
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Yetingsong believes “freedom is relative…it means little to the lower end of scale…people makes end meet do not care about freedom to express yourself…”
Well,either yetingsong is advocating that freedom is only for the wealthy or twisting the fundamental value of freedom! The freedom that is accepted universally goes like this:-
1)Human freedom is one that should work so that no one is deprived of his or her basic human rights. .
2)All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights
3)Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
4)No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
5)No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
6)Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
7)No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
8)Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression
9)The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government.
10) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
11) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Yes, freedom is God in a democratic nation. If it is not for the freedom,China would groping in the Communist Cage instead of the the Bird nest.
C.tashi
New York
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To Post 22 :
It is hard to digest when you say :
"Human right in China is far better than Britain; at least the Chinese don't have to worry about being stabbed by teenagers in front of their own door!"
People in Britain don’t need to go to underground church and they can practice religion openly. Let me also tell you this: Chinese kids killed their own teachers, beat up their own parents, burned up their text books, and destroyed everything old. These kids not grew up, mostly working in government, and taking charge in china. If these things happened in normal countries, all these people should be in mental hospitals.
The victims of child abuse must go through psychological evaluation; otherwise, these people would develop abnormal behaviors.
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To post 122.
I think you pushed too far with your 4 points even stated there is no freedom of travel. Go to Beijing train station or airport, the only thing you need is money. No body needs approval from authority to travel. CHINA IS NOT A PRISON AS YOU DESCRIBED.
For the election part. To make it simple to understand, People vote for distict level people's congress, then the representatives from district level congress vote for province level congress, then representatives from province level vote for national level people's congress. It is a power pyramid. I voted before I left China. At least I personally knew the person I voted for. I did not see anyone manipulate the process. And the person I voted for was not a CCP member. It is true that there was not much competations in the district level election. These representatives do not get more money from winning only the rights to represent the district and vote for higher level representatives. The system needs more competation for sure. But it seems to produce competent leaders in the last 20 years.
Chinese people critisize the government and ccp whereever they go. If you understand Chinese then you will hear it on the street, at work, on the internet. At the end of the day no matter how harsh people critisize the CCP and the government they sre happy with the nation's progress according to a recent survey by PEW research center. You do not get lock up because you critisize the government or joint a protest (It has to be legal, for example in the designated area likes the three parks). But if you organise a protest then you are going to be held responsible if things go wrong.
Trade union. China is now a market economy. Money talks more and is more powerful than the communists. The CCP does not have much control o religion otherwise the monk lead riot would not happen.
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To Senlin.
What traditional way of life they want to live? They manage for thousands of years? The life in a feudal socienty? Who want to live that kind of life? Of course the nobles and slave masters would like their good old days back. Do the slaves and serfs want to live the old way?
Listen to the native Tibetans and XinJiangers. James will do that for you. He will find a couple of them who have been jailed for separism, interview them, and present them as native and ordinary Tibetans and XinJiangers.
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To Robertzhao in post 89.
The people who can speak English are mostly upperclass? English is taught in almost every single high school in China. How good of a person's English is purely dependent on how talented the person is and how much efforts he/she put in to study it.
China and Chinese people are determined to learn from the west, to grow our nation stronger. You can see it from the government's decision to reinforce English teaching to ordinary Chinese familys' effort to send their children aboard to study.
I found your views of China very biased. While we know how much China has progressed in every single aspect you can see nothing positive. Make me wonder......
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To thompeg .
Do you like to have China bombed to change the system or you want an armed "uprising" to solve the problem you perceived?
Your view is very extreme, black and white.
I see a nation progresses very well. The problems we still have? Will be solved via reform.
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Hello James. Every day I read your articles with great interest. I am a Welsh woman who will soon graduate with a BA in Chinese Studies. I have been studying Chinese History and Culture for years and I am also the president of the Chinese Association at my university, so I do know a thing or two about China.
Even though I do believe you record a truthful account of your time in China, I also believe you focus on all the nagative aspects and you do not present the wonderful aspects of China.
I have been spending 2 months in Beijing, and I must say that the people of China seem to be the most satisfied people I have ever encountered. Many of them are very happy about their system of government and love their country very much. Their living standards have indeed grown immensly and if you look at the rate of economic growth since China were awarded the Olympics, then I believe China should be praised and not criticised. The Chinese have always valued education to the people and I have known many successful Chinese who could only have become the successes they had been through the system of the Iron Bowl. This system did take away people's individuality, which is terrible, but elements of this system were extremely beneficial to the Chinese people and gave them a sense of security.
Now, people do have a lot more freedom but naturally, China still have a long way to go. They have been working with one system for decades and in a space of 10 years they have adapted spectacularly, but I don't think they should be criticised so harshly because they are still growing.
Also, I do not approve of the BBC's constant criticism of the pollution problems in Beijing. When I was in Beijing until a few weeks ago, there were beautiful blue skies. The Government may not have hit the target they wanted to, but they certainly brought the pollution levels right down.
In future, to provide a REAL view of China, present positive aspects about China without all the negative undertones.
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Let us just be thankful that China has not gone the way of the former USSR and is changing at a pace that is manageable by the Chinese people. Perhaps this clamouring for 'democracy' by the west has more to do with fear of a powerful and stable China, than with any desire to see a managed transition to a representative democracy, which after all is something that is lacking in most of the western countries which are calling for change in China. In both the UK and the USA the public are so disillusioned by our democratic politics that they fail to vote and when they do governments are not voted into power by wholly democratic means!? We should examine our own ethical democratic principles before trying to force change on other countries.
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145. At 06:25am on 07 Aug 2008, wonderfulchinese wrote:
To Robertzhao in post 89.
"The people who can speak English are mostly upperclass? English is taught in almost every single high school in China. How good of a person's English is purely dependent on how talented the person is and how much efforts he/she put in to study it. "
I appreciate your courage using this name, wonderfulchinese. I dare to say many excellent Chinese do not want to use such name, because they know who they are.
Your view about China just like a blind embracing a leg of an elephant, crying out "see, the elephant is like a pillar!"
When you see a desk, you see its top surface is very smooth. But please see the reversed side of the desk, you will find it is not polished.
One may roughly divide Chinese in China into two major poupulations, one is in the city or town (upper class), another is in the rural area (lower class). I believe most of those living in the rural area are the second or even third class of Chinese citizen, and most of those in the city are the first class. Most of people who can speak fluently in English live in the city; they most likly belong to the upper class. I, too, one of the upper class people. You, too, an elite person, a wonderful Chinese. But please take care of those people who are the second or third class citizen, help them. Do not close your eyes to them. Do not say you did not see millions of migrant workers being evicted from Beijing for the sake of the greatest, greatest game. Remember, new Beijing was mainly built by those evicted migrant workers. Have mercy on them.
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To #147:
I had similar opinions of China when I first lived there too. With time, you will perhaps become familiar with the undercurrent of official corruption and how it effects many ordinary peoples' lives.
Take with a pinch of salt people telling you they are happy with their system of government, especially if it is in groups, rather than one-on-one. With patience, this side of China will also reveal itself. "Face" applies on many levels.
I'd be interested to know your impressions as time goes on. My opinion of the government was more favourable initially, but gradually went downhill. My impressions of the Chinese people in a very broad sense had their ups and downs, but the overall trend was up, a long way up.
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To WonderfulChinese:
You are only looking at things from a poliitical stance and not a spiritual viewpoint. Perhaps the people were happier when their places of worship hadn't been destroyed by the Chinese army and they weren't watched and monitored by the Chinese government constantly?
So you mean China helped Tibet by invading and sorting their old system out? This is like me justifying the invasion of Iraq as they needed their bad old ways replacing with democracy (which I will certainly not do). Both invasions were about oil/natural resources which now your train line is in place, I'm sure you'll be able to get those oil digging machines to work - just watch.
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As a westerner myself, I cannot understand this constant focus on China's human rights record and alleged lack of freedom.
Having visited China on several occasions and met 'typical' chinese people, I fail to see all these human rights abuses that keep getting mentioned. It is funny how these allegations normally originate from ignorant westerners with no knowledge of China other than what they read in the
media. There is often little proof of any wrong-doing.
In the west, this is known as slander. The
media should know this well as they have often been sued in the past for such 'errors'.
Having read many of these blog entries, I have found them to be consistently one-sided, inaccurate and very judgemental. Of course, western media agencies are not state-controlled but they might as well be. They only dare show the populist viewpoint which is currently to bait China at every opportunity.This latest blog entry is no different. I actually find the examples given quite amusing. We in the west are always very proud, self-righteous and arrogant about are so called freedom.
Yet in reality, the majority of it is an illusion. Here are the examples quoted as to what
Chinese peope cannot do:
1.) choose their government in an open election.
In the UK, I am not able to choose my own government either. Even if proportional representation was in effect, this still would not make any difference. I do not recall anyone voting in Gordon Brown as supreme leader. Furthermore, the apparent freedom in deciding our own fate is an illusion - Conservative or Labour what difference does it really make. The UK still waged an illegal war in Iraq contrary to the wishes of the majority. In actuality, it does not
necessarily matter what political system is in effect be it democracy or communism. What really matters is that the government strives to improve the lives of its citizens. I note that the 'Communist Regime' that so many people insist on calling it is doing a much better job than our current government in the UK. Inevitably, if the populace is not happy with the government, then this will lead to strife be it communism or democracy.
This particular point is typical of western arrogance that there is only one correct system.
2.) criticise the Communist Party's top leaders (at least in public)
Is that a fact? Any proof of this? More likely is the case that not many people wish to criticise the government given its track record of improving the human rights/lives of so many of its citizens. In addition, non-approved protests in the UK are not permitted. If I start an impromptu protest in front of Buckingham Palace, the police will soon show up.
3.) have more than one child (rule applies to the ethnic Han majority living in urban areas).
Again, this is not entirely accurate either. There are further exemptions such as if both parents come from single child families. Additionally, a fee can be paid to circumvent this.In truth, this is the single most profound act of any nation on the planet in the pursuit of improving human rights. To anyone with an iota of common sense, it is obvious that the human rights of one individual impinges on those around them. Give total freedom to everyone and that will
adversely effect others. This is a great sacrifice and selfish westerners would do well to learn from it. It is a sad fact that animal populations without factors to control their size ultimately exhaust their food supply and die out. Realistically, other nations will soon have to follow in China's footsteps or risk the destruction of civilisation.
4.) form an independent trade union.
Not sure about this one so can't comment.
5.) worship a religion which does not pledge loyalty to the Communist Party
Same as 4 above. However, there are numerous religions which are practised freely in China these days. In any case, religion itself has not exactly been a benefactor to mankind in most cases.
6.) access all parts of the internet (although the smartest can find ways round the firewall)
What's your point? That censorship is bad and should not be conducted on any scale? This blog itself is censored. The media in the UK is censored and does not permit total freedom of reporting. Furthermore, I am certain that there are ramifications for visiting morally suspect sites in the UK or anything to do with terrorism. Again, this problem is present in every country and is necessary in some cases due to the influential power of the media in shaping peoples' ideologies. Even in the brief time since the BBC started reporting on Tibet, I have noticed colleagues' views of China becoming more negative. As such, false reporting and misinformation can be a
dangerous weapon.
I could stop there, but there are just so many other infringements on our freedoms in the UK that makes this article seem ridiculous. On a daily basis, more and more ridiculous measures are put into place for our supposed safety.
42 day detention without charge for suspected terrorists.
Anti-terror laws used to check up on whether a family lied about their address for the purposes of sending their children to a better school.
CCTV used to track dog-fouling incidents (there are now a huge amount of CCTVs tracking the majority of our movements.
Bin police fining people if their bin lid is not shut properly.
Banning of photographs being taken in public places such as shopping centres (again due to terrorism).
Future plans on ID cards and genetic databases.
As for freedom of expression, there is a distinct lack of that too. Anything said that differs from acceptable social norms will have severe ramifications. The days of freedom of speech are long gone.
Oh and one other thing. As a hard working citizen, I do not have the freedom to have as many children as I want. The limiting factor may not be the government but it is cost. On the other hand, if I choose to not work for a living, then I can have as many children as I want, paid for by benefits and sponsored by those who do work hard. That sounds like inverse natural selection
to me and a distinct lack of common sense, not to mention a severe blow to my human rights.
We truly are basking in a free and righteous nation.
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James' entry has definitely stimulated a lot of comments, though almost all are made by people who write as though they have some special authorization to speak for everyone in their particular area of the world - the use of plural pronouns is rampant, "we", "us", "our". The idea that humans, no matter where they live, are individuals seems to be lost. All that a person can really do is voice his/her (hir) own opinion and that of those for whom they know specifically know their particular view on a particular issue.
Additionally, the vast majority of the comments I have read here contain the view that what is of importance is what is good for a *country*, China in this case. The individual is given a very minor role - just one of the group living in the jurisdiction of a particular government. Governments everywhere are interested primarily in maintaining and growing their power - they will allow the residents in their jurisdiction only as much liberty as they must and still stay in power. And they will restrict liberties as much as they can get away with - as much as the residents in their jurisdiction will tolerate. In those countries where mostly meaningful elections take place, all sorts of promises of "bread and circuses" (welfare and subsidies, for those not familiar with this phrase dating back to the Roman Empire) are made to get and keep the favor of voters. Where elections are merely a charade (Cuba, Zimbabwe, ?China? and other locales) the populace is much more in the role of children being controlled by parents, sometimes ones that are truly sadistic, and the challenges for the individual are more basic - to the extreme of just staying alive in some locations.
In all locations, the vast majority of those in political power view the populace as a collection of mostly individuals who are too ignorant to know what is in their own best interest. (I would have written "all those in political power" except that there may be some individual politician who starts off with the idea of truly liberated individuals, but this situation can never exist under systems of government - liberty and government are actually oxymorons. The political game playing begins almost immediately and the individual's liberty becomes just a ploy.) And of course what is "in their own best interest" is never thought of by rulers as what is in the individual's own best interest - rulers just never think that way. There are no *individual's*, except themselves and some of their closest associates/friends. The rest are just there to be ruled, kept in control by the government enforcers, those who are willing to initiate the physical harm decreed by the rulers. It is the government enforcers that make it all possible - without them all the restrictive regulations, edicts, mandates, laws etc. would be nothing but words filling countless pages of documents.
The nature of human beings does not automatically lead to the conclusion that individuals must be ruled by others in order that there be orderly interactions between them. Society, just like any other natural system can be naturally self-regulating by means of interactions between its members, if only humans seeks to discover and are allowed to implement the methods by which such self-regulation can be effective, rather than continuing to embrace social systems that need to be constantly held in an unnatural (and very non-optimal) state of balance by the operations of their rulers and other influencers. Individual self-order without rule by others is the social system whose members are humans, who have become fully adult. Just as people can become physical adults, so can they become social adults - if only they are allowed (and even required in the sense that they will not achieve their desires unless they do) to socially mature sufficiently.
**Kitty Antonik Wakfer
Casa Grande AZ USA and Harcourt Park ON Canada
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This is very fair. Probably the most correct comments from BBC. I have to say most Chinese people don't like their government, just any other countries. But this Olympic chaos pushed most of them backing their government. They feel this is a unique opportunity for them 'Stand up', for them to be a real peoson in this world just us.
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I think narashefi has made a substantial comment. The Chinese v.s. the West debate is getting no where, the Chinese find the West too negative and feel they are being misunderstood. I can understand that.
BUT, before we post a comment, we should think about the definitions of terms. What is the "West"? Is it the US, or Sweden? They can be very different. Also, people seemed to have different interpretations of "freedom" and "democracy". Some people also mentioned "the Chinese way", well, what is it anyway? The Confucian way, or the Laozi way? Or the communist way?
Basically people can say whatever suits them and make any kind of interpretations. People can always counter an argument and find faults in anything.
To wonderfulchinese;
Did I say ALL the outsiders know better than insiders??? You have brought up a one-sided, simplistic argument.
Also, which incident are you referring to? Things are usually much more complicated than we(ordinary people) can imagine. Unless you work for an intelligence service.
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To worlddonotforgettibet.
Did the slaves and serfs who lived under Dalai Lama's rule have any of this rights and freedom? Nil.
China is building their freedom and human rights now although not perfect yet.
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To : wonderfulchinese
I’m Chinese. I read Chinese.
Chinese people can travel freely within the country, but they need the authority’s approval to travel abroad.
Yes, the Chinese election system is a multi-tier system, so the population can only vote for small communities’ representatives. This ensures the people’s votes carry no meaningful political power. Candidates may not be members of the ruling Party, but they must first be approved by the Party, i.e., the Party can ensure all candidates are pro-Party. Do these elected members get more money ? Well, that depends on whether they are mostly corrupt or not.
Individual Chinese people can criticize the government, but not in a conspicuously public manner. Criticisms are generally limited to issues related to livelihood, and the economy. Organized criticisms are not tolerated. The government has supreme authority over what you can and cannot criticize, they do it arbitrarily and at will.
Yes, a recent PEW survey says that most Chinese are happy with their government, but it also declares that the survey is mostly based on urban regions. Urban Chinese accounts for only about one-third of the total population.
China is a state-controlled market economy. The state can step in anytime to control prices and the market trends.
Chinese can practise religion only individually, but organized religious practices are controlled by the government. The riots of Tibetan monks was a rebellion against the government’s control.
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To robertzhao.
Taxfree for farmers is still not good enough. How about let the people in the cities pay more tax so all the farmers can get some special allowce. Farmers deserve the same rights as the people in the cities? I thought you think no Chinese have any rights at all. Millions migrant workers had been evicted from BeiJing before the Olympic? How can Beijing function without millions of migrant workers? Some constructions had to be stopped for a while for better air quality and some migrant construction workers had left BeiJing for their family in the rural area. They deserve a holiday! Have a look of TV programm presented by James. Even in the western version of BeiJing in the background you will see sunburned faces of rural migrant workers. Right? Migrant workers are still in BeiJing and they are everywhere. If there are people in the cities discriminate against migrant workers then they are very low. They are either not educated or having trouble to compete for jobs with migrant workers. The only unfair thing that happened recently on a large scale is the riot in Lasah. In which migrant workers were systemically targeted by local Tibetan thugs. The chinese government did not sit on its hands. All the thugs are locked up in jail. Well done!
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Senlin's reply to WonderfulChinese: 'Perhaps the people were happier when their places of worship hadn't been destroyed by the Chinese army and they weren't watched and monitored by the Chinese government constantly?'
The answer is no, they were not happier and the Chinese Army did not destroy their places of worship nor are Tibetans watched by the government constantly. Nowadays, most Tibetans have enough food to eat, can raise their own livestock, can travel to and work in other parts of China and enjoy preferential policies in almost all aspects of their lives. Now you tell me if they would be happier being a serf, with no food, no place to live and no where to go?
If you care to study the history a bit more thoroughly, rather than just listening to what the western propaganda says, you would see that Chinese Army liberated Tibet rather peacefully, as oppose to using excessive forces to conquer them. Ask any elder Tibetans who still remember this and they will tell you what really happened.
Selin went on comparing the liberation of Tibet with invasion in Iraq by the US and UK forces, and said 'Both invasions were about oil/natural resources which now your train line is in place, I'm sure you'll be able to get those oil digging machines to work'.
This is a ridiculous assertion. Again if you care to study further, you would know there were no oil reserves or substantial amount of natural resources discovered in Tibet at that time. Even today Tibet's economy still depends largely on livestock raising and central government expenditures. At the same time they are exempt from all taxations to the central government. Only recently, thanks to improvement of transport links, it has become a popular tourism destination.
It was not until 56 years after Tibet was liberated that China finally discovered a large amount of mineral deposits in Tibet. Saying that China 'invaded' Tibet for its oil/natural resources is not only baseless but also ludicrous.
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when are you actually going to show some interview done with average citizens...not the officials nor the "media / west"??
We all know tehir stories by heart; they all claim they know what's best for teh Chinese.
Why don't you earn your salary and do some real journalist work??
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Dear Mr. Reynolds,
Before you go on about China's record on human rights and how the current Chinese `regime' runs roughshod over its people, you may want to take a few minutes to consider the record of your own country vis-a-vis its treatment of the Chinese people and its colonies in the 1900's. Of course, no one talked about human rights then. I sincerely believe that the Chinese nowadays, have more freedoms than their great-grandfathers had under the yoke of the British Occupation of China, within its euphemistically called `Sphere of Influence'.
I would like to say that human rights is another term the West employ to set barriers to prevent the Natives from improving themselves. It is a luxury of those idealistic youths who have never struggled a day in their lives because they have had the good fortune to be born in countries that have become rich and prosperous off the countries their own have colonised and enslaved.
That's not to say that the Chinese government is perfect, but then, whose is?
But at least they are making the effort. You can speed things up. And if in its slow and lumbering progress to its own brand of development, an unlucky number were to be left worse off, it happens. After all, they have to take care of 1.3 billion. If the majority is satisfied, why harp on the cries of the unfortunate few. Nobody said life was easy nor fair.
We only ask that you put things in perspective and make your comments less reflective of someone who has an axe to grind.
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TommyJ1984 wrote:
"The Chinese Army did not destroy their places of worship"
Prior to the Chinese invasion there were 2500 monastries. By 1962, 70 were left.
"You would see that Chinese Army liberated Tibet rather peacefully, as oppose to using excessive forces to conquer them."
I'm sure the families of the 93,000 who died through torture and 157,000 through execution, would find your description of 'peacefully' very offensive and upsetting.
Obviously a 'peaceful' invasion would not lead to the arrest of a 6 year-old boy (Gedhun Choekyi Nyima) whose whereabouts is still not known despite UN requests?
Please study the facts before repeating the party line next time.
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Hi James,
Great to see you are reporting in Beijing, and I thoroughly enjoy reading your articles.
However you would always receive criticisms because this is an open forum.
I must stress the point that have you spoken with an actual ORDINARY Chinese person?
If you truly understood the culture and life of an ordinary citizen then you would understand how much the communist party has benifited the nation. You must understand that democracy is not the best prescription for all nations, and it does not lack its own problems (I say this because I am living in a democratic nation which suffers from a lack of protection against petty crimes from the government).
Basically the point here is Britain started its industrial revolution 100 years ago while China did only 30 years ago. How much freedom did the British people have back then? One can not place judgements on another in this situation, it is clearly hyprocritical.
I urge you to read more on Chinese history and perspectives despite how much propaganda you believe is in there, because that is culture.
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#163. AinsophAur:
" the Chinese nowadays have more freedoms than their great grandfathers had under the yoke of the British Occupation of China "
Ask any Chinese from Hong Kong, and you will know that they enjoyed more freedoms under British rule than the Chinese of China proper do today.
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To Selin No.165,
"Prior to the Chinese invasion there were 2500 monastries. By 1962, 70 were left."
I can't be sure where you get these numbers. How can you verify that while you are not in Tibet back then? Even there are true, here are some new numbers for you. After Dec 1978 the 11th meeting of People's congress, major shift of CCP policies occured. In 1986, the total number of restored and reopened monastries is 234. In 1990, the number is 1353. In 1996, the number is 1787. And it keeps growing.
"I'm sure the families of the 93,000 who died through torture and 157,000 through execution, would find your description of 'peacefully' very offensive and upsetting."
This is ridiculous. Do you know how many people are needed to torture 93,000 families??? There simply aren't enough man power and places to held that many people in Tibet.
"Obviously a 'peaceful' invasion would not lead to the arrest of a 6 year-old boy (Gedhun Choekyi Nyima) whose whereabouts is still not known"
What invasion is that? The Panchan is appointed by Dalai in 1995, while he has already been an exile for 36 years. Just wondering, would UK allows Ireland government appoints the leader of North Ireland?
Now I can guess you are no more than a pro-Tibet campaigner who is purposefully against Chinese. No wonder.
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To whinejunkie No.167,
"Ask any Chinese from Hong Kong, and you will know that they enjoyed more freedoms under British rule than the Chinese of China proper do today."
Yeah, sure HK people used to be under the law of UK. They had more rights.
Who's to blame for setting China backwards? Opium war, WWII, and much more, not communism itself.
Please, anyone in the west, before feeling superior, how about pay up the war reparation to China first? How about return us all the gold and artifacts that you have robbed and then used as the seed money for your society to grow? If we haven't been robbed, you think we would still be a developing country by now?
Those human rights that Chinese don't have, are simply robbed by the ancestors of those who are now blabbing about them.
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169: Westerners now are just as responsible as those of the 1840s? Oh dear. How long does the blame and bitterness need to go on?
Changing the subject a little, in terms of "what if" questions, without foreign invasion and bullying, would the Qing Dynasty have survived or just collapsed a little later? What if Chiang Kaishek hadn't made off with all the gold reserves to Taiwan, or what if Zhang Xueliang hadn't orchestrated the Xian Incident and the Long March had finished off the CCP? Any thoughts anyone?
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TO Xlbfan No.170,
There is no 'what if', but there are reasons to blame the west. As long as you guys don't give up the idea that you are having the moral high ground. The blame will continue. 'You have robbed me, and now you are gloating about it in front of me.'
Changing the subject a little? How about put down everything related to Tibet then? Tibet is part of China now, why the west is still so fond of 'free tibet' to its past? Double standards everywhere.
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"You guys"? I didn't even mention Tibet. So we are all the same and just as guilty as colonialists of the Victorian era? I myself didn't do it, and it goes without saying that it was completely wrong.
You misunderstood my last paragraph: I wanted to ask others what they thought of the "what if" questions I posed.
It would be interesting to hear your opinions on China's problems instead of counter-acusations which aim to "cancel out" such problems.
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"• move around the country more freely
• travel abroad
• buy their own house (a law protecting private property was passed in 2007)
• pick their own job
• decide who they want to marry (and decide if they want to get divorced)
These have been achieved in my parents' time.
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To Xlbfan N.172,
""You guys"? I didn't even mention Tibet. So we are all the same and just as guilty as colonialists of the Victorian era? I myself didn't do it, and it goes without saying that it was completely wrong."
There are many things done by Chinese individuals, but the west tends to interprect as the cases of Chinese in general. You didn't mention Tibet doesn't mean others didn't. And as long as you have nothing to do with it, why would you even care?
"You misunderstood my last paragraph: I wanted to ask others what they thought of the "what if" questions I posed."
Ok, that's fine.
"It would be interesting to hear your opinions on China's problems instead of counter-acusations which aim to "cancel out" such problems."
I would very much like to talk about China's problems too. In fact I talk about them all the time in Chinese forums. So do a lot of Chinese. Don't think we only sit quitely without a fight when bad things come along.
Human rights etc. in China shall be improved within, by Chinese people. We will take our time and do what we can. We just don't appreciate the outsiders' relentless meddling.
The meddling and so-called 'caring' from oridinal westerners only: 1)give CCP to misdirect the problems and firm its hand on inner control,make ordinary Chinese come out to "counter-accuse" the west instead focusing on criticizing CCP, which clearly makes things harder for reformers and Chinese activists; 2)give western politicians excuses to create conflicts, from which they can have profits by selling arms or taking away oil and other resources, imposing unfair sanctions to put other countries into more financial difficulties.
What good does that make? You tell me.
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174:
Personally, there's nothing "so-called" about my concerns for China, but I can only speak for me.
I guess what you're saying is that much criticism treads on a nerve and means many become entrenched in their stated position due to historical sensitivities and I would say a perceived loss of face too. However, public pressure on the CCP has forced a few concessions in the past, and might some activists suffer further if their cases were not publicized (Hu Jia, etc)? Of course it's up to the Chinese themselves, but the CCP is the one that ultimately decides, not the population (I would also concede that western political systems don't work flawlessly either though).
I reckon also that the PRC is viewed as another USSR as on the surface the political system looks the same. The difference is that Russia was also a colonial power which occupied parts of Manchuria/ north east China, and few account for pain inflicted by imperialists as they don't look beyond the CCP.
Were you also saying that it gives the government the excuse not to really address local peoples' grievences (as they distract attention to criticism from overseas)?
My opinion is that domestic journalists should be publishing whatever they feel is relevant. I don't agree that all western media is biased, however that viewpoint does make the point that the government should back away from constraining its own reporters. You're absolutely right, the Chinese themselves should be the ones asking the hard questions. I say let them do it.
Good to exchange views with you.
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To Xlbfan No.176,
thanks for your reply.
The 'so-called caring' was for some other commentors, not for you really. I debated another people about this point.
"a perceived loss of face" is important in this matter. The pride of ordinary Chinese is still fragile, since it hasn't been long that China passed the time of humiliation by western powers and its own social failures followed.
If to really help others, one also need to care about their feeling at the same time. Disabled people very often reject helps. It doesn't take a PhD to understand why. I will also recommend you to read comment No.227 post 'Not quite what we thought' which is seemingly by a understanding westerner.
"Were you also saying that it gives the government the excuse not to really address local peoples' grievences (as they distract attention to criticism from overseas)?"
Yes, I'm saying it. But, it doesn't mean the government doesn't want to improve itself. Self-improvement of the government takes time and needs support from the people. If the distrust between the people and the government is too strong, there won't be any good social progress. Therefore, the government, sometimes, has to use nationalism to deflect the outside criticism, in order to restore faith to its people. If everyone losses faith in the government, the society is going to collapse. The fate of the people bonds to the fate of the government. Hence, to go against CCP regime won't necessarily do any good to the people it sometime oppresses.
"CCP is the one that ultimately decides, not the population" is a misconception. CCP members are all ordinary Chinese. Anyone call join. It's a special form of governing that guarentees (theoretically) the decisions are made by the population. The distinction between people and government is not as strong as in the western systems. This also explains why I say 'The fate of the people bonds to the fate of the government'. Of course this system doesn't work that well all the time.
'PRC is viewed as another USSR' very dangerous misconception indeed. Of course I don't need to tell you it's not true. You already knew.
"My opinion is that domestic journalists should be publishing whatever they feel is relevant. I don't agree that all western media is biased, however that viewpoint does make the point that the government should back away from constraining its own reporters. You're absolutely right, the Chinese themselves should be the ones asking the hard questions. I say let them do it."
Thanks. I appreciate your sentiment. But back to the first point I made. The government needs to give people faith. It is now in an impasse:
1)If the government back away from constraining media entirely, the powerful western media will come in first. The people exposes to all the bad things about their society and they won't be able to take it. They lose faith of the future and the society won't be able to go forward.
2)If the government controls too much, the people will also lose faith because they will realise what's going on and trust becomes distrust.
This is a subtle problem and needed to be solved in a subtle way. The extreme idea such as "publishing whatever they feel is relevant" won't work that well I'm afraid.
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Hello james! Thank you for all your concern about China, China's pollution and China's two way freedom!!!! Really thank you so so so much. You are taking care of these china's topics much much better than me who as a chinese! However, dear james, can i ask you some questions? Why do you interested in my government more than me? Why do you trying so hard to criticice my government and help us to bring the so called freedom? But dear james, do you know that we Chinese citizens dont need your kind heart? We dont need your so called freedom you know? Dear dear james, do you know that what you do now is nothing for the my gavernment, but they are only just hurtting 1,300,000,000 Chinese citizen's heart! Dont you notice this? As you are surrounding by so many Chinese citizens, why dont you just ask any of them about it? Or if you Chinese is not good enough to ask, why dont you just come back to your UK to ask me and all the Chinese people here who can speak your language? Dear james, when you are talking about the poor welfare in China, please please do compare your contries's tax rate and China's tax rate, and please please do compare the population between your Uk and my China (You need to know the different burden between your UK and my China). And please please dont forget your country is much richer than my country, which makes your UK can give people more. Also, please please dont forget how do your UK become rich, please realise the fact that your rich is come from other poor countries' cheap labour.
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James is safe-guarding the freedom of information. If the Chinese media always report the good news ,and do not reflect the otherside of the issues,the very few Chinese in China who has the opportunity to read his column should count themselves lucky ,for many others may not really know the truth, and what the foreingers think is the right way for the Chinese to behave.
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West is great and China is learning and will be improved towards the common value of HB but China may not be developed in the same way or to the system as West did.
CCP is not good enough but it is the best for China for the time being and people have no other better choice and no one in China has the capability to keep China improving as the CCP can do.
HR and all other good things the West enjoys China will have in the end but it may take time. Good things for China may come out by evolution of CCP itself not by revolution.
If Chinese have all the good things in one day, they could turn to be disaster as a portion of people may misuse them. So it must be God's will - it takes time and efforts
So, Gan Ba Lai Chinese, and, Gan Ba Lai Western James-alike friends!!
- a West-educated ordinary Chinese living in HK and Shenzhen
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The level of freedom can also been seen from defferent culture groups. Asian are basicly different from European countries.
What Eastern people see human right is very different from Western people. Maybe James should start a survey amongst nations...
Good article, James, here is my opinion...
Let people enjoy those 'rights' THEY recognize, understand in THEIR own way.
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Dear Mr James
Thanks for your care, But you are wrong on some of your views.
I am a native chinese people and now I am living in shenzhen city, and I was born 25 years ago in a inland province, I know there are many problems in china, This is the same as UK, USA , Germany and France.
I think chinese people likes the freedom , human rights very much, The same as the western people. But I think Chinese people is not rusian people, We are reforming our regine step by step.
Because chinese people believe that the western people won't give us foods If chinese were hungry, It's impossible that the western people would like the chinese poeple to be a powerful people, We have to depend on ourselves, and only depend on ourselves. Don't Worry about us too much, I think Chins will be a freedom, good human right in near future,
But Pls kindly note : We will reform step by step, We just depend on ourselves.
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