Chinese applaud Taiwan 'warlord'
There are 205 teams competing at the Olympic Games. But only 192 of these are from countries represented at the United Nations
Ten of these are Caribbean or Pacific islands (American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles, Cook Islands). None of these islands are independent, but they are allowed to compete in their own right in Beijing.
Palestine isn't independent, but it wants to be - and it gets to compete at the Olympics. Hong Kong competes on its own as well (it got to keep its own Olympic team even after the territory returned to China in 1997).
Then, there's Taiwan. The island rules itself - but China considers it to be an inseparable part of Chinese territory. Still, Taiwan is allowed to send its own team to the Olympics - under the politically neutral name Chinese Taipei. This politically neutral name comes with a special, suitably neutral flag - Olympic rings printed on a white backdrop.
This morning, in Beijing I got to watch Taiwan/Chinese Taipei's best gold medal hope - Chu Mu Yen (a taekwando fighter who has the fearsome nickname "The warlord of Taiwan").
The Beijing crowd cheered loudly for him as he walked in for his first fight (on the grounds that they feel that he is as Chinese as they are). A handful of fans even waved the Chinese Taipei flag.
But no-one raised the actual red and blue flag of Taiwan itself (that would have broken Chinese and Olympic rules - section D of the regulations posted outside Olympic venues says that spectators are not allowed to bring in "flags of non-Olympic and Paralympic participating countries/regions"). So, no Taiwan flags are allowed (for that matter no English, Scottish or Welsh flags are allowed either - since the UK competes as one nation under the flag of the Union Jack).
Chu Mu Yen clearly enjoyed the crowd's support - since he demolished his competitor from Kenya (and made me understand why he's known as the warlord of Taiwan).
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Please can the BBC get this right - it's a Union Flag, not a Union Jack, unless it's on the bow of a ship.
Just because a lot of people get it wrong doesn't make it acceptable for you to join them, let's try and keep the journalistic standards as high as our Olympans.
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This is pretty rich considering England's colonial past, taking lands that were never theirs in the first place and still holding onto them even now, whereas at least China had rule over Taiwan until the civil war and still claims sovereignty. Perhaps you can travel to Russia next and support South Ossetia in ostracising themselves from Georgia?
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Very good article regarding sports, politics and people. I am sure James will get to know more the situation about Taiwan and Mainland if he spends more time in China.
Strange enough, none of my friends nor me ever notice the different flag Chinese Taipei has for this Game. I am sure those Taiwanese(they would like to call themselves) agreed to this on a large scale prior the Game.
Well done, Chinese and Taiwanese audients. It is right to 'obey the law' . Says Chinese first PM Zhou Enlai and the Bible.
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The president of Taiwan is also born in Hong Kong, China. The constitution of Taiwan is written in the Mainland. It is one country but the island is a province governed by a seperate political party, the Nationalist. The UN recognise Taiwan as part of China and so does all the nations of the world apart from a few Islets in the Pacific who themselves not entirely legitamate as sovereign nations.
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Go warlord, go Chinese Taibei.:)
BTW, Taiwan is different from all the other non-countries you've mentioned. Taiwan is ruled by a Chinese government, not CCP, but Chinese nonetheless. Also, it's not colonial.
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"But no-one raised the actual red and blue flag of Taiwan itself"
True, though my American-Taiwanese friend went to a Taiwan-Cuba baseball match and raised the flag of Myanmar, which is very similar to the Taiwan flag, and from far away pretty much looks the same.
After a lot of hassle and passport checking she was allowed through, and after the game she was interviewed by Taiwanese reporters.
Goes to show you can get round all this red tape with some initiative.
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So, "moderator" is really a euphemism for censor. It is understandable for children's sites, but adults? Come on!
Look at "Lambie23", no. 1 above, has been awaiting moderation since 10.25 am, almost an hour ago. What is so difficult about it that a "moderation/censorship" should take that long? It is somehow reminiscent of current Chinese practices...
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yes, you are right. we consider Taiwan a part of China. cause it actually is. you know people in Taiwan also call mainland motherland. Haha. cause they are the Republic of China.
Tought Taiwan rules it by itself, we are a de factual family. we share the same culure, the same customs, the same language, the same ancestor, and the same name,China.
you know it is just a temporary departure what we call 'break up'.
I can tell you that we Chinese are intelligent enough to solve our internal affairs. we can allow tempoary departure, but both sides can't tolerate independence.
we just need time. we are surely will unite as one.
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Lambie23 - before whinging, try getting your facts right. The Union Jack/Flag thing is a common misconception repeated by pedants. There is no sound historical evidence for what you state and the BBC has a policy not to use the term "union flag" because of its "great potential for confusion", preferring union jack
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Chinese people and supporters using the history of the British (not ENglish) empire are really shooting themselves in the foot. Though it was glorious a hundred and fifty years ago the EMpire does not give the British happy memories that help these days and very few people wish to go back to those days. I guess that they try and compare CHinese (and Russian) antics to the British as they are jealous, think we will believe "well we did it, so it is okay for you to do it now" - how cheap?
China keeps Taiwan under control by continually threatening violence and war, Russia threatens all its ex-territories by provoking a reaction from Georgia then crushing them when they react. Just because it seemed like a good idea two centuries ago does NOT make it good now.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Note to Lambie23:
"The author is occasionally asked which of ?Union Jack? and ?Union Flag? is the correct name. The Flag Institute answers as follows:
It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that ?the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag?."
from http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/union-jack/union-jack.html#jack-or-flag
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i_love_china, as an intelligent person you must be aware that there are independence issues in territories all over the world - it has been until recently the greatest reason for terrorism, and the current conflict between Russia and Gergia is over the desired independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I would acknowledge that the UK has had its own problems in this regard - indeed Scotland may soon choose to become independent. Please note "choose".
I'm afraid that it's not good enough to simply state "it's ours because it's ours". If the vast majority of a territory wish to break from the main body, what natural right does the main body have to deny them?
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Come on, I_Love_China, I'm your countryman and I highly respect your sentiment towards our country. But you don't necessarily need to show it in such a propagandizing way.
The key whether Taiwan should be reunited with the mainland is held in Taiwanese people's hands. If they don't have such kind of thought, then everything we're doing here would be in vain.
So let's stop debating and fighting, keep on developing and communicating. Maybe someday the whole East Asia will be incoporated together just like Europeans are doing now, then the problems across the strait will no longer be a problem.
Btw, I had been in Scotland for 16 months, and the strong Scottish nationalism there surprised me a lot. I still remembered watching a crucial football game between England and Croatia in a pub in Edinburgh, I was the only one hailing for England, all Scotts there were doing the opposite. I don't think they really hate the English that much, they just feel overshadowed and want to show their own identity so badly. That's the same thing some Taiwanese people are doing, more tolerance should be given to them since we are from the stronger between two sides.
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It is interesting that there seem to be a lot of Chinese contributors using BBC webspace to air their views on Taiwan as being part of China.
It is also interesting that they do this in an environment of freedom, yet were not free in arriving at their beliefs, nor allow this freedom of thought to Taiwanese.
Let's hope Taiwan can march under their own banner at the next Olympics!
To Chinese contributors- you are very concerned with how the world views China- in particular the West.
Rightly so. Lots of people in the West are scared by a country where everyone has an agressive loyalty to China, and takes massive offence at any sort of criticism.
If the West is to respect China and its citizens as equals, It needs to see that Chinese individuals are able to think for themselves and can accept criticism. Until then, the relationship will be unequal and the West will seem suspicious and patronising.
Take the situation of Taiwan- no one in Taiwan considers themselves part of the PRC- and they are free to decide! In China, everyone thinks it is 'part' of the PRC- and no one is allowed to object to this!
This suggests that 1) Chinese people are not permitted to, or not able to, weigh up the pros and cons of the argument; and 2) The situation is clear for the Taiwanese- yet they are able to differ in opinion as how to declare their independence (unlike China, they don't all seem ready to die for their country at the drop of a hat).
You should notice that the leading countries of the world (e.g. France, Sweden, the US, the UK, Switzerland, Brazil, Germany, Australia) also suffer the loudest criticism.
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In reply to Lambie23's comments about the Union flag:
Here's a brief history of the union jack!
Whether to use "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" is a matter of debate. One view is that the union jack should only be called the union jack when flown as a jack at the bow of a ship. It is not universally accepted that the "Jack" of "Union Jack" is a reference to such a jack flag and is only an educated guess.
The Flag Institute, the vexillological organisation for the United Kingdom, stated that the term Union Flag is a "relatively recent idea". It also noted that "From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially.
No law has been passed making the Union Flag the national flag of the United Kingdom: it has become one through usage.
Its first recorded recognition as a national flag came in 1908, when it was stated in Parliament that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag". A more categorical statement was made by the Home Secretary in 1933, when he stated that "the Union Jack is the National Flag". But it is still officially a flag of the monarch, rather than the country.
so in summary. It can be either the Union flag or the Union jack.
Well done BBC on your excellent coverage of the games. Keep up the high journalistic standards.
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It's funny how wound up some people get over national boundaries and arguments. The bottom line is that probably every square foot of land on this planet was pinched at some point by it's current owner/occupier. While the previous occupiers may feel aggrieved, if you go back a bit further you'll probably find they pinched it as well. Keeping going back and there'll no doubt be an awful lot of pinching until eventually you get to a bunch of adventurous 'Africans' who decided to go explore and happened to find the place.
On sovereign rights - do you think I could declare my home independent of Britain until Labour are voted out? ;)
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To maloneranger
Many Chinese people are facing those criticism in quiet, a small part doesn't accept it and you say EVERYONE bluh bluh...
There's also 'no one in Taiwan...' in your post. I wonder how you did those statistics and what's your source. I suggest you not to be so self-assured a little bit.
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To Comment 14,15,16.
If you have the right to think that Taiwan is not a part of China, Sorry that I also have the right to think that Taiwan is part of China. And I do not care what do you think!!! it is not decided upon on your hand!
The winner will decide it.
Thanks
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to maloneranger,
I know a lot of people from Taiwan, most of them take a neutral opinion on this 'part of China' issue. I believe you must have been living in Taiwan for your whole life, otherwise you would have said" Take the situation of Taiwan- no one in Taiwan considers themselves part of the PRC"
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To maloneranger:
Those who suffer the most criticism should be those who do most evil. What has NATO done other than start wars and confrontation? Besides, I don't see Brazil and Aussies get criticism... I only see China, Zimbabwe, Iran, and Russia. In other words, the bullied gets the pounding, while India, which cannot even ensure women's right and equality, gets nothing.
Again, how can we accept criticism when there is nothing but criticism against us? Where are our positive points? They seem so minuscule in your view!
How do you know Chinese people don't think freely? Because the law forbids it? Even so, you need to know that the Communists won't know what you talk about at home. It's not the Big Brother (GASP! CCP IS NOT BIG BROTHER! OH THE HORROR!), however close you view it. What people do at home is their own thing, and the CCP respects that. I've talked about democracy and freedom plenty of times when I traveled to China and the police wasn't on my case. They didn't even know who I was.
And of course, the West does not see Chinese as equals simply because its gov't is "inferior". Please. Where's equality? Where's human rights? Should the Chinese not enjoy the same basic rights as the West? Should they not be treated as equals no matter what they do?
I agree with derekjoe in that the people of ROC should choose whether or not they want reunification. It is inevitable, and it will come, but it will come on OUR terms and according to OUR schedule, not some screaming foreigner who knows a big fat NOTHING about our internal affairs.
Oh by the way, when was China last seen meddling with the internal affairs of other countries? And please do not cite Sudan. We do business with them; they ask for guns, we sell them guns. What they do with the guns is their thing. After all, guns are innocent. It's the people who use them that are guilty.
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to maloneranger,
You are scared because China is growing fast and to you China is an unknown entity, doesn't share the same culture values as you do.
For the past 200 or so years the West has been exporting cultural values and political systems all over the world, usually by force. Although this has been largely successful in the past (even in Russia), it now seems to stop with China.
The rise of China is a fact that you just have to accept, get use to the idea that there are other cultures, political systems that might work just as well.
But, the fundamental difference between China and the West (and Soviet Union for that matter) is, the west has been aggressively enforcing cultural values and political systems onto others (a bit like Christen crusaders in the old days). On the contrary, China don't do this, you never hear China saying "our culture and political system is the best and therefore everyone MUST sign up of else", not now, not in the past, not ever.
And the thing is, majority of the people/country in this world is made up by non-westerns (please don?t be surprised by this), people who suffered and still have bad memories during the colonial days by the West. With the rise of China, now they have a new choice, doing business with China on equal terms.
There is no need to be scared by this new choice, it's a free world, and it's about time you start to learn to respect others.
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A close look at the island's history shows that Taiwan was only very briefly a part of Imperial China (from 1887 until 1895). Before that time, it was a loose-lying area, not ruled by anyone. In fact, when the Dutch East India Company established a settlement in the southern part of the island in the 1620s, they found no signs of any Chinese administrative structure.
The people who emigrated from the coastal areas of China in the 17th and 18th century moved to the island to escape wars and famines in China, not to conquer the island on behalf of the Imperial dynasty. In fact, in the 1870s, when the governments of the United States, Japan and France protested to the Manchu emperor in Peking that pirates around Taiwan were attacking ships passing the island, they were told by the Chinese authorities: "Taiwan is beyond our territory."
In 1895, the island became Japanese territory, having been ceded "in perpetuity" to Japan by the Chinese Manchu rulers under the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. For the following 50 years, it was an integral part of the Japanese Empire.
In 1945, it was "temporarily occupied" by the Chiang Kai-shek's troops on behalf of the Allied Forces. When Chiang lost his Civil War in 1949, he moved the remainder of his troops and government to Taiwan, and ruled with an iron fist. In the "February 28" incident of 1947, his troops massacred between 18,000 and 20,000 Taiwanese elite. The Taiwanese people, who comprise 85% of the island's population, were thus oppressed, and became unwilling pawns in a bigger chess-game between the two Chinese adversaries.
The "One China" policy is a confusing concept. From 1949 through the late 1960s the United States recognized the Kuomintang regime in Taipei as the government of "China." It held the seat in the United Nations, and kept up the pretense of representing China.
When in the 1970s the United States and other Western nations recognized the Communist regime in Beijing as the government of China, the KMT's fiction was discarded, but was replaced by another fiction: the "creative ambiguity" of the Shanghai Communiqué, in which the Beijing authorities were recognized as the government representing China, but in which the United States stated that it "acknowledged" the Chinese position, that there is but one China, and that Taiwan is part of China.
Did the wording of the Shanghai Communiqué mean that the US, and other nations which used similar wording, recognized or accepted that Taiwan is part of China ? The answer is an equivocal no. These nations simply took note of the Chinese position, but did not state their own position on the matter. However, over time, this distinction started to blur, and some began to interpret the wordings of the 1970s as to mean precisely what they were not meant to be: "accept or recognize."
In the meantime, however, the Taiwanese achieved their transition towards a democratic system, and for the people of Taiwan any communiqué's between other countries such as the United States and China are not binding and of little relevance, because they were made without any consultation with, or representation of, the people of Taiwan.
Thus, the need to move towards a new "One Taiwan, One China" policy. This would not alter international recognition of the authorities in Beijing as the government of mainland China, but would specifically state that according to the basic principles agreed upon in the context of the United Nations, it is up to the Taiwanese people themselves to determine their own future. It is up to the international community to guarantee that this is done freely, without any coercion by China.
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I agree with one of the previous contributors, that it is indeed nice to see some Chinese opinion on this blog. But it is also a fact that Chinese society is nothing more than a dictatorship. Individuals have no rights whatsoever, and any dissent against the government is met with imprisonment. Examples of similar regimes, with similar characteristics were Nazi Germany, the USSR, Burma, Zimbabwe. Just because China is now a powerful global economy that is hosting the Olympics, it does not detract from this simple fact. The Chinese, for all their self confidence, pine for Western acceptance. However, until the Chinese people realise that they live in nothing more than a tyranny, such western acceptance will not be forthcoming. If China really wants to be recognised as a big boy, then as a nation, it is going to have start to act like a mature grown up, by being able to take criticism on the chin, and not react to it like an immature adolescent, which essentially is the stage of development that Chinese society is currently at. A functioning democracy, with a free press, independent judiciary and freedom of thought and action are the essential feature of a mature society. China has non of these. If you were fighting it you would have our respect, because you are not, you don't.
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To Comment 19
What do you mean the winner wil decide it?
Do you mean the one who has more weapons will make the decision?
What a brilliant thought!
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maloneranger wrote: "Take the situation of Taiwan- no one in Taiwan considers themselves part of the PRC- and they are free to decide! In China, everyone thinks it is 'part' of the PRC- and no one is allowed to object to this!"
I would like to point out that it is insulting to assume that people who live in nondemocratic governments do not have the ability to think. With this statement you are assuming that these Chinese people are only pawns of the government without a single thought in their head. Have you ever met a Chinese person? I'm sure they would beg to differ.
Plus, how the hell do you know that no in Taiwan considers themselves a part of the PRC? This is such a broad assertion which can't be qualified.
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To maloneranger No.15,
It's interesting that when Chinese don't have enough freedom to air their views to counter the one-sided western views on BBC webspace, you guys are so happy to complain about how little rights Chinese have. But when we do have the rights to read and write on BBC, you start to complain Chinese commenters are too many.
It's also interesting that you think it's reasonable to criticize us, but when we argue with you we are 'aggressive' and 'massively offensive'.
Rightly so. Lots of people in the West are scared by a country where everyone is loyal, so much so that you guys have to demonize this loyalty to 'aggresiveness' to make yourselves feel better.
You always forget the fact that even without the 'agressvie loyalty', the west can still agressviely wage wars all over the world, under the name of democracy, as if 'the will of the people' can justify any crime.
Where were the rights of Chinese people when US constantly armed pro-US Nationalist (KMT) troops to slaughter opposition (both CCP and ordinary people) in the mainland? Where were the rights of Chinese people when US supported KMT to empty the national treasury of the whole country and then retreat to Taiwan?
The government in Taiwan has committed war crime, robbed mainland to almost bankcruptcy, left the rest of Chinese people in a post-war ruin, while themselves become wealthy with the gold they've taken away.
Just to remind everyone, KMT government has been wanting to fight back and conquer the mainland. Just because now the mainland is too strong for them, they get the right to declare independence?
It's not about freedom anymore. It's about China as a unified nation and its rightful interest. The dispute of the mainland and the island should be decided by Chinese people alone, not by the meddling of the west.
Btw, don't come to brag that you guys would allow Scotland to declare independent 'freely'. Scotland didn't take all the money in London and ran away. Scotland won't be armed by Russia or Iran, as Taiwan is armed by US. If it did, will you still allow its independence? I seriously doubt it.
You think Chinese shouldn't care about western criticism? Then you guys must be lying about caring the improvement of China. If you want to help others, you would want them to take your criticism seriously.
Also if we shouldn't care about the criticism, why would you care about what the Chinese commenters say about you? Double standard yet again.
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Taiwan is a limbo state. The Chinese Communist Party may claim Taiwan, but have little historical claim, having never ruled it. As part of the 1895 treaty that ended the first Sino Japanese war it was ceded in perpetuity to Japan, who remained in control until Chinese nationalists took control of it in 1945. In 1949, following the civil war, the Chinese nationalists moved their government to Taiwan and ruled until the 1990s, when democratic elections began to be held. There are major linguistic and cultural differences between the 23 million inhabitants of Taiwan and mainland China. There are now closer economic and political links between Taiwan and Japan than between China and Taiwan. The Chinese communist leadership has recently gone out of its way to begin building bridges with both Japan and Taiwan, they are both economically important neighbours, but China has stated it could invade if the Taiwanese declare independence, which most Taiwanese would like. We need to remember that Taiwan is a potential flashpoint for conflict in region (America is its most important ally), which is why most nations tiptoe round the issue.
PS. Hong Kong, now part of China, has its own Olympic team (not won any medals) but is also hosting the equestrian events on behalf of Beijing. In which case why no national teams for Scotland and Wales in 2012?
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"This is pretty rich considering England's colonial past, taking lands that were never theirs in the first place and still holding onto them even now"
This is really getting boring now, the English did not start the trend of expanding it's borders into other peoples back yards. This is something that has happened for ever, it's something that the vast majority of nations has done in varying degrees.
Does this mean that we are not allowed to talk about it, of course not!
Especially when individuals do not and cannot be held responsible for the actions of politicians and nations from before they were even born!
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Just to set the record straight for both sides.
From Zogby International one of the worlds preeminent polling firms
"Nearly two-thirds (63%) said they view the current status of Taiwan as a sovereign and independent country, while 31% said they view Taiwan's sovereignty as undetermined - just 5% believe China's sovereignty extends over Taiwan. When specifically asked whether they agree that Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation, 89% agreed.
Three in four of those surveyed - 79% - said they support using the name "Taiwan" to refer to what they consider to be an independent and sovereign country. Seventy-seven percent said they support the government's policy of using the name "Taiwan" when applying for U.N. membership, while nearly as many (64%) said they would be supportive of the government using the name "Republic of China" in when applying for membership.
Most of those surveyed (71%) said they would describe themselves as Taiwanese when speaking with someone from another country, such as an American or European - just 5% said they would say they were Chinese"
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why do u begin to hide your opinion now? however bad it may be heard, it's still better than just plain depiction of something. an opinion is what a blog for. if we wanna news, just go to bbc.co.uk.
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Personally I would be extremely inulted if having won an ilympic medal I was not allowed to celebrate with my Welsh Flag.
I accept it could not be raised at a medal ceremony but what I drape myself in is my choice alone.
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Hey, just to let you know I'm at the Games now and I've seen Saltires in the stadia.
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You may criticize China in many aspects but supporting Taiwanese independence is not a constructive criticism at all. By doing that, you are actually threatening the fundamental interest of all Chinese people.
Maybe you don't understand this but territory integrity is sentimentally so important to every Chinese. You respect the right of Taiwanese. Why can't you see that virtually all mainland Chinese support Unification? Why can't you respect our right to keep our country undivided?
We are NOT forced to say so by our government. Of course, if you insist I am brain washed by our "evil communist" government, you can ignore what I said.
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I will not object if the Nationalist party comes back to mainland to rule the whole country including Taiwan. No matter which government or party rules China, Taiwan must be a part of this country. You want to take power? then please take it all. Otherwise, back off
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"This is really getting boring now, the English did not start the trend of expanding it's borders into other peoples back yards. This is something that has happened for ever, it's something that the vast majority of nations has done in varying degrees.
Does this mean that we are not allowed to talk about it, of course not!
Especially when individuals do not and cannot be held responsible for the actions of politicians and nations from before they were even born!"
Of course people are free to discuss this in an open and honest matter. I'd welcome healthy debate on both sides. The problem here is that the BBC constantly posts condescending and opinionated views on this subject, influencing the opinion that the only correct method is the western method. A lot of it is doing no more than adding to todays climate of xenophobia.
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To No.30
The poll? I will give you a poll result by US national geography:
* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map?though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu?by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map.
So you think it's ok to let these wannabes decide whether or not Taiwan should be independent? Give me a rest! No polls please, and no westerners for our internal affairs.
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To anderh No.30
The poll? I will give you a poll result by US national geography:
* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map?though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia.
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu?by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map.
So you think it's ok to let all these wannabes decide whether or not Taiwan should be independent? Give me a rest! No polls please, and no westerners for our internal affairs.
To jayfurneaux No28,
Since you say there is little historically justification for Chinese to rule Taiwan, why would you all support KMT to rule it then? Can we have less double standard here please?
I'm not amazed by 'most nations tiptoe round the issue', I'm amazed by why you guys want to tiptoe around it at all. If US can't sell arms to Taiwan or can't have Taiwan as an ally, do you seriously think US will care about Taiwan?
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To No. 30,
THE POLL WAS CONDUCTED IN TAIWAN OF TAIWANESE PEOPLE!!!!!
Please have the courtesy to read peoples posts.
Second my skin may be white, but I was a resident of Taiwan, and have an adoptive family there.
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From what I know, Taiwan wants to rule over the motherland, where as China wants Taiwan back in the union like SARS Hong Kong and Macau.
If it weren't for the USA using Taiwan and the likes of other westernized Asian countries to encircle the PRC, Taiwan would have been like Puerto Rico to the USA.
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I published a very mild comment on BBC but was rejected. I do not know why?
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"Maybe you don't understand this but territory integrity is sentimentally so important to every Chinese. You respect the right of Taiwanese. Why can't you see that virtually all mainland Chinese support Unification? Why can't you respect our right to keep our country undivided?"
So basically you are saying that the desire of 22 million people (okay, whatever the population of the Island of Taiwan - 5% is) to live in a democratic state and be able to express their desires through a free press, and the islands right to self-determination is less important than the sentimental attachment the people of China have to a piece of rock, or the idea of Chinese unity?
Second, as I have shown before, you country (CHINA) and the ISLAND OF TAIWAN in were part of the same country (ruled by the same government) for 4 Years in the last 125. Thats 3 percent of the time. The Japanese have more claim to territorial unity with Taiwan.
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Since you say there is little historically justification for Chinese to rule Taiwan, why would you all support KMT to rule it then? Can we have less double standard here please?
This is where you are having trouble with basic concepts like democracy. With democracy the power derives from the people. So even if the people elect a Martian the country is not run by the Martians, it is run by the people who are Taiwanese. Yes the KMT used to be in China but they are NO LONGER the Chinese. Get it?
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To anderh No.39
Polls are not justification enough for any other. Otherwise whu do anyone want to have elections? Just a bunch of polls and vola, here is your president.
There was a taiwan referendum in 2004. Question "Would you agree that our Government (taiwanese) should engage in negotiation with Communist China on the establishment of a "peace and stability" framework for cross-strait interactions in order to build consensus and for the welfare of the peoples on both sides?"
Type of vote Valid votes % of valid votes
Yes 6,319,663 92.05%
No 545,911 7.95%
What do you say about this??
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jamcnam91, leave poor ole Lambie alone! There is nothing pedantic about being right.
A Jack is flown from a Jack-Staff, forward, on a Naval Vessel - fact. Historic and Current fact.
The Union FLAG is of course hopelessly out of date, including as it does the Red Saltire, a State Emblem which served a state which has ceased to exist.
And Team GB as a title effectively ignores one province of your daft little nation - Northern Ireland should consider competing in their own right.
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"From what I know, Taiwan wants to rule over the motherland, " FALSE, Even the Nationalist party, the KMT, has rejected conquest of the Mainland, years and years ago. The people never supported it.
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With regards to lambie23's comments about the union jack flag and the union flag, it might be a valid comment if it wasnt delivered with such down the nose animosity and that he/she spelt olympians wrong!!! It does seem quite strange that a wesh or english competitor cannot be celebrated as such within the stadium, to discourage it is fine but to ban it shows again the Chines governments intolerance and that it is an olympic ruling as well is quite suprising.
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In reply to malonemanger
I'm not entirely clear of your meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that because certain Taiwanese people want independence for Taiwan, they are practicing freedom of thought and expression, but when some Chinese people do not want, or say that they do not want, independence in Taiwan, they are not practicing freedom of speech and expression. Also you seem to imply that unless the Chinese people show the world that they are against the official party line, then it is impossible to indicate that they are capable of thinking for themselves.
"If the West is to respect China and its citizens as equals, It needs to see that Chinese individuals are able to think for themselves and can accept criticism."
Now, I agree that many Chinese netizens could do a better job in terms of taking criticism, but your argument sounds suspiciously akin to "You must think like us or else you're not free and equal to us".
I'd like to remind you that West does not equal Free, and that opposing the government does not equal thinking for yourself. I believe Chinese people should have the right to oppose their government just like peoples of other nations have the right to oppose their governments. Similarly, I also think Chinese people have the right to support their government just like other peoples have the right to support their governments. Freedom of thought and expression comes in making the decision to support, oppose, or abstain regarding an issue, not in the opposition of the issue itself.
The West is correct that PRC China practices censorship. But if it arrived at this conclusion because too many Chinese people have decided to support the government on certain issues, then it is wrong. After all, an overwhelming majority of Americans support democracy and the Constitution, the official line of the US government, but that doesn't make them incapable of thinking for themselves.
Also, not ALL people in Taiwan believe themselves to be independent from China. And, most people recognize that Taiwan is not part of the PRC, and that the debate revolves around whether it is part of a loose umbrella term of One China. The specifics of the debate are very complicated, and I am no expert, but I hope we can avoid mass generalizations.
To be told that your views are wrong is one thing, but to be told that they are worthless or insignificant or not even your own, is the worst insult. Regardless of whether people support Taiwan's independence or not (amongst other issues), I hope that we can still debate in a reasonable and respectful way without disregarding or dismissing our opponents opinions.
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To anderh
Your poll clearly says "when applying for U.N. membership, while nearly as many (64%) said they would be supportive of the government using the name "Republic of China" in when applying for membership." Doesn't that mean 64% of Taiwanese will consider themselves as Chinese and they want to claim the mainland?
Polls are not to be trusted. There are loads of push polls by political parties with hidden agenda. There are enough ignorance among both sides of the people. You number means nothing.
And don't think I don't know about Taiwan. I have plenty of Taiwanese friends in London and we talk to each other on this issue all the time. I even read Taiwanese news sites and know what they say no less than you.
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We are very successful in keeping Taiwan diplomatically isolated and out of participating most international organizations. There is no doubt about that: 1.3 billion are quite an intimating number.
However, does that bring any benefit to our ordinary people other than feeling the "national glory?" The last time I checked Taiwanese do not need any visa to enter most of the countries. However we great Chinese? I for one don't feel any "glory" by keeping Taiwan and its people down.
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To comment #28 by JayFurneaux,
1. Japan took over Taiwan from the last dynasty of China, and returned to China after it was defeated in 1945. I don't know what you meant by "have little historical claim". And, that's why Chiang Kai-Sheik fled to Taiwan, no countries in the world complained he "invaded" Taiwan. Get it?
2. CCP has never ruled Taiwan. That is true. But CCP is just the current administrator of China. California is part of the US, it doesn't matter if it is under Johnson, Carter, Reagan, or Clinton administration. Taiwan is part of China no matter who is the administrator of China. It could be DDP if they stop embezzling and laundering money.
The current situation is the result of Chinese civil war. Taiwan is currently a separate political entity. but, last time I checked, it's official name is "Republic of China". Don't want to waste too much time, but I hope this is clear.
One more thing... It is not good for Taiwanese people, if Taiwan gets independent as a country. They would be a lot better off if they apply for the 51st state of the US, or unite back with China. The reason is simple - "Might is Right". Taiwan is too small to have "might", and therefore it will be always 'wrong'. Just look at the recent incident when Japan's warship wrecked Taiwanese fishing boat at Taiwanese island called Diao-Yu-Tai. All Taiwanese fishing boat owner can do was crying.
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To londonlurker,
Actually, the KMT is the party that's less inclined to declare independence. I wouldn't say it's because they necessarily want to reconquer all of China, but it's definitely got a lot to do with the party's tie to the mainland. Also, I think it's important to keep in mind, for people on both sides of the debate, that for better or for worse, the KMT is now very different from how it was under Chiang Kai-Shek, the CCP is very different from when it was under Mao Zedong, and the DPP is very different from when it was under its founding members. There are a lot of historical and current arguments to independence and unification to consider, including China's historical attachment to Taiwan, the KMT's legacy there, the Japanese ocupation, etc... If some people (including myself) want Taiwan included in a unified China for patriotic reasons, that fine (but let's respect that other people have the right to their opinions, which may or may not be more factually supported than our own), but lets not jump to false conclusions regarding the state of affairs in Taiwan and between its parties, or oversimplify the problem.
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To number 44:
"Polls are not justification enough for any other. Otherwise whu do anyone want to have elections? Just a bunch of polls and vola, here is your president.
There was a taiwan referendum in 2004. Question "Would you agree that our Government (taiwanese) should engage in negotiation with Communist China on the establishment of a "peace and stability" framework for cross-strait interactions in order to build consensus and for the welfare of the peoples on both sides?"
Type of vote Valid votes % of valid votes
Yes 6,319,663 92.05%
No 545,911 7.95%"
This result clearly shows the desire to end the conflict and abandon Chinese identity and negotiate as equals. It implicitly states and difference between Taiwanese and Chinese and calls "our Government Taiwanese". Thats my response to that. True polls are not official counts. But there is little difference between polls and elections in their acuracy, the difference is just who sanctions them and the timing.
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To anderh No.43
"This is where you are having trouble with basic concepts like democracy. With democracy the power derives from the people. So even if the people elect a Martian the country is not run by the Martians, it is run by the people who are Taiwanese. Yes the KMT used to be in China but they are NO LONGER the Chinese. Get it?"
Oh, that's interesting. Taiwanese is not Chinese because they live in Taiwan? I lived in Beijing. I should call myself Beijingese but not Chinese then.
Here is something for you:
from wikipedia:The ROC's population was estimated in 2005 at 22.9 million, most of whom are on the island of Taiwan. About 98% of the population is of Han Chinese ethnicity. Of these, 86% are descendants of early Han immigrants known as "native Taiwanese". This group contains two subgroups: the Southern Fujianese or "Hokkien" or "Min-nan" (70% of the total population), who migrated from the coastal Southern Fujian (Min-nan) region in the southeast of mainland China; and the Hakka (15% of the total population), who originally migrated south to Guangdong, its surrounding areas and Taiwan, intermarrying extensively with Taiwanese aborigines. The remaining 12% of Han Chinese are known as "mainlanders".
Has this anything to do with democracy?
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To londonlurker #37,
No poll please? This is interesting, some people seem to have problem with the Taiwanese deciding themselves who should rule the island. The Taiwanese tried to call for a general election on independence a few years ago but the CCP threatened military action.
I just want to know what the problem is with the Taiwanese deciding who should rule their land. The CCP just couldn?t even allow this election to happen, what were they afraid of? That the result may show that most Taiwanese actually want to rule themselves? Let?s face it, the Taiwanese have been ruling themselves for decades and it?s up to themselves to decide which way they will go in the future. I don?t know on what grounds you can say the Taiwanese have no right to decide on this.
Most Taiwanese people don?t want CCP to rule Taiwan, it?s a fact, everybody knows this, even the CCP knows this very well. However it seems that the CCP and many mainland Chinese people think Taiwanese?s opinion on this matter is less important than theirs, or should even be ignored. Perhaps the fact that these Taiwanese people, a few generations ago, slaughtered opposition and ?robbed? mainland makes them inferior to mainland Chinese forever? The slaughtering opposition point sounds particularly interesting to me.
History may show that Taiwan is actually a part of China. But what if Taiwan chooses to move on? Even if Taiwan were to be a part of China forever (just because it must, as some people seem to suggest), it doesn?t necessarily mean that it has to be ruled by CCP as many mainland Chinese wished.
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A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
well done taipei.
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Please read entire post:
To 49. londonlurker wrote:
Point 1: 64% said they would be supportive of the bid if it included the name Republic of China (NOT PRC). However, a greater portion 77% said they supportive of the bid if it used the name "Taiwan" So you see a greater number of people support the name Taiwan, so your conclusion is incorrect. Logic man, logic, you need some. In addition please read all of my posts. If you read all of my statistics, only 5% of people in Taiwan consider themselves Chinese. (That includes the people who were BORN in china)
2. Zogby International is a well respected firm. And it doesn't matter if the people are ignorant or not when they have right to vote. Their opinions matter.
3. You even read Taiwanese new sites? How great for you. I doubt you have Taiwanese friends. I doubt you are in London, I think instead you are sitting behind a bank of computers in Beijing. But It does not matter what your friend says or you think or for that matter I think. What matters are the FACTS, the statistics. How you feel about a subject is irrelevant. How the population feels and votes about a subject makes a difference, thats where things like facts, polls and statistics come in handy when you are having a debate. Something you have used very poorly.
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"Second, as I have shown before, you country (CHINA) and the ISLAND OF TAIWAN in were part of the same country (ruled by the same government) for 4 Years in the last 125. Thats 3 percent of the time. The Japanese have more claim to territorial unity with Taiwan."
So you think the brutal Japanese rule of Taiwan is legitimate and "Republic of China" (the official name of Taiwan) has nothing to do with CHINA?
Just because the two parts are ruled by two separate governments doesn't mean they are two countries. The current situation is an unfortunate consequence of a civil war. You can't deny the fact that Taiwan was part of China before that war.
Remember the Taiwanese government calls itself "Republic of China".
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To Londonlurker 5
Yes, Taiwan is governed by a Chinese government, like Hong Kong, a local government, not necessarily by CCP.
We are coming much closer now, ain't we, Londonlurker?
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To heyone No.55.
"No poll please? This is interesting, some people seem to have problem with the Taiwanese deciding themselves who should rule the island. The Taiwanese tried to call for a general election on independence a few years ago but the CCP threatened military action."
I'm against using polls to make a point, because it is so often misleading and easy to forge. Don't mess up concepts again please. I'm not talking about rights of self-determination, I'm talking about not using polls to determine. OK?
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quite refreshing to see post 14, one of the rare occasions on these blogs that I have seen a Chinese poster not spouting the CCP line.
The crux of the matter is, as said in comment 14, is that the 'Taiwan issue' should be decided by the Taiwanese. It has nothing to do with the CCP or China. Unfortunately the constant sabre rattling and international pressure on other countries by the CCP means Taiwan does not dare declare de jure independence.
To those Chinese who think Taiwan and China are the same country, I would advise you to try travelling here without your passport and with your RMB money. On arrival tell the locals that Taiwan belongs to China and their reaction should tell you a lot!
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Could this kind of free and open debate, as is going on on this website, be allowed in China? Of course not;unless you were parroting the propaganda that is used by the Chinese totalitarian government to brainwash it's citizens from the cradle to the grave. Most of the Chinese posters have been brainwashed but don't appear to know it, which is the really sad part.
Examine the facts, not the propaganda, and try to think for yourselves. This will go a long way to earning some respect from the world's population.
Until then, you're just sadly deluded but feel secure because most of your ignorant countryman are behind you.
"none but ourselves will free us from mental slavery." Bob Dylan
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To anderh No.57,
"Point 1: 64% said they would be supportive of the bid if it included the name Republic of China (NOT PRC). However, a greater portion 77% said they supportive of the bid if it used the name "Taiwan" So you see a greater number of people support the name Taiwan, so your conclusion is incorrect. Logic man, logic, you need some."
Man! you are the one talking about logic. Is it logical that 64% agree something while 77% disagree? The sampling question doesn't use complementary set and therefore invalid. You can easily spin them to many directions.
"Zogby International is a well respected firm. And it doesn't matter if the people are ignorant or not when they have right to vote. Their opinions matter."
It hugely matters whether or not the people are making informative decisions and therefore ignorance plays a big role. The validity of polls has nothing to do with the fame of the firm. Good firm can make stupid polls as well, especially when they are paid to do so.
"You even read Taiwanese new sites? How great for you. I doubt you have Taiwanese friends. I doubt you are in London, I think instead you are sitting behind a bank of computers in Beijing. "
What? So I'm a CCP operative to you? Your distrust loses my respect.
"But It does not matter what your friend says or you think or for that matter I think. What matters are the FACTS, the statistics. How you feel about a subject is irrelevant. How the population feels and votes about a subject makes a difference, thats where things like facts, polls and statistics come in handy when you are having a debate. Something you have used very poorly."
Facts don't always if at all come from statistics. They are too many factors in a social system.
Statistics is not exact science and can not be used to prove, but only a mere tool to facilitate systems modeling.
The fact is I majored in math, and I bet you do not. It is more like a fact that I have more knowledge on polls than you do.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm sorry, but this discussion is just too interesting to pass up.
To anderh:
It is useless for us to advocate the independence/reunification of Taiwan simply because we are "outsiders". The fate of Taiwan is to be decided by the Taiwanese people. Right now, the Status Quo is working, and shall we leave it at that?
IMHO, politics needs more pragmatism and less idealism. Ideological conflicts fueled the Cold War and it started the War on Terror. If we have fewer people who are focused solely on ideals, we would have a much better world today.
And polls do differ from elections/referenda. Polls, by nature, is a small sample out of a large population, while elections is a much much larger sample (hundreds, even thousands of times larger). Therefore, elections and referenda hold more authority than a simple poll.
Again, this whole One China thing is QUITE complicated and delicate. I advocate for the "One country, two system" mechanism for bringing Taiwan back, but it will only happen on their own terms, according to their own time line. We overseas Chinese and westerner alike have no right to interfere, like the US has no right to interfere with other countries' internal affairs.
To TaiyuanRen:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you hired by FLG? I am increasingly suspecting you of being such.
To londonlurker:
I think the way of thinking for the two of us are similar. Although, I think anderh is using the blanket term "Chinese" to refer exclusively to "citizens of PRC".
Anyway... I'll come back later.
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Some facts for heyone and anderh,
"Startng from the winter in 1948, KMT transfered 22.75 million ounce gold, 152 million silver units, and 153.7 million US dollars saving in US federal reserve. They have also taken away plenty of priceless artifacts , and abducted skilled workers of all kinds. "
This is the source I got. You can cross-examine it as you like. The figures may vary, but the fact is simple: current Taiwan ecnomy and the development of their society has been entirely based on this wealth.
Can you deny this?
Analogy: If I were to rob a bank and run away. Do I get the right to claim myself as a free person and therefore go wherever I want?
Friendly advice to any Taiwanese who think they have all the right to declare independence: Don't be a cheapskate.
Advice to clueless westerners: mind your own business please.
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to Comment 25:
You got it. Let take US or Russian as two examples. I am afraid that I have to say that. This is the reality.
Thanks
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To anderh No.53,
"This result clearly shows the desire to end the conflict and abandon Chinese identity and negotiate as equals. It implicitly states and difference between Taiwanese and Chinese and calls "our Government Taiwanese". Thats my response to that. True polls are not official counts. But there is little difference between polls and elections in their acuracy, the difference is just who sanctions them and the timing."
"our Government Taiwanese" should be "our Government", I wrote the word Taiwanese there to prevent confusion. You don't need to be a nation to have a government, therefore the term "our Government" is political neutral.
Polls are totally different from referendums and elections.
63% taiwanese think they have been self governing, 71% like to be called 'Taiwanese'. Ok, but it doesn't mean they want independence at all. These numbers get you nowhere. You can poll Shanghai people, maybe 90% of them feel they have been self-governing, 80% of them want to be called 'Shanghai-er'. What difference does that make?
The thing really mattered is this referendum: 92% Taiwanese want to have a "peace and stability" framework for cross-strait interactions, and it is just too obvious that declaring independce will achieve the opposite. Therefore it only means that 92% of the population are against independence.
Why this contradicts with your poll? Because polls tell you nothing serious, as I suggested.
In order to build consensus and for the welfare of the peoples on both sides, I suggest you put down your separatist sentiment. Things will be much better off.
Independence is really not an option. But China doesn't need Taiwan to reunite just yet. Nor is it truly willing to reunite Taiwan by force. When the time is right, when the society is satisfactory to you, you can decide to join or not.
This is a consensus by my conversation with my Taiwanese friends, believe it or not.
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How long will it take for BBC reporters to realize that the actual name for Taiwan as a political entity is the Republic of China? Taiwan was, is, and mostly likely will never be the name of a nation. I was born in Taipei, so of course I too have a complicated sense of identity; however, many East Germans still don't feel very "German" nowadays either. I cheer for both teams (especially in events that the Chinese Taipei team does not participate). Please stop reporting inaccurate and overly simplistic portrayals of the Taiwan/China situation, especially at the Olympics. (BTW: Republic of China was the only CHINESE representation to compete from 1932-1976, even after the Communist take-over of the mainland.)
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To #37, londonlurker :
The National Geographic poll was done in 2006. The subjects polled were in the age group of 18 to 24, which accounts for only a small percentage of the adult population.
You used the vague description *young Americans* and intentionally avoided the specific narrow age range.
If 6 in 10 young Americans do not speak a foreign language fluently, does that mean 4 in 10 young Americans speak a foreign language fluently ? Wow, good for them ! When your native language is the prevailing international language, where is the incentive to learn to speak a foreign language ?
Statistics are factual figures, but you have to do your own analysis with these figures.
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to londonlurker
Over 50% of the people don't like the war in iraq.
If you want a poll then let's do a poll including all Chinese. Taiwan belongs to the Chinese people. If people don't like that then maybe they should move to UK. Just because you happen to be in a "room" of a house that doesn't mean you can declare this "room" is yours.
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Guys I only lived in Taiwan for about a year and a half so not a long time. But lived in Asia for about 12 years and travelled to both COUNTRIES at least once a month. This really is a bit diificult. China thinks its Chinese - Taiwan thinks it is Taiwan - Taiwanese appreciate their Chinese orign and heritage but many see themselves as being a discrete and separate entity - whilst many others do not and see themselves as part of the prc. Now we have a situation where what ever happens a significant number of people either way are going to be unhappy. Similar situation in some ways to how many Australians view the republic/monarchy issue. So what is to be done. What kind of majority is acceptable? Surely in this day and age it would be ok for both to coexsist? Australians and the UK get on ok (ish apart from sport!). What exactly do the Chinese hope to give the Taiwanese/Chinese of Taiwan that they can't already realistically have? I'm pretty sure given the Olympic medals table that is not the number of medals Chinese Taipei has won!
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I'm not on either side of this debate. Just curious about some things
to londonlurker
using wikipedia as reference is not a good move mate. it allows uers to re-edit the contents.
to someone states about sovereignty
What do you make of the fact that some former admistration in China sold Hong Kong to Britain for 100 years? You, Chinese people, consider the one signed the deal a criminal or hero of your nation?
Could you give us your honest thought?
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#1 - Lambie23
#9 - jamcnam91
I have never seen a ship fly the Union Jack. Royal Navy ships fly the white ensign (also yachts belonging to members of the Royal Yacht Squadron), RNVR vessels fly the blue ensign and all commercial shipping registered in the UK flies the red ensign. The Royal Yacht Britannia used to fly a variant with an insignia at the intersection of the crosses but that is the only time I have seen one in 30 years of seagoing.
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16 postings awaiting moderation on this blog alone? What on earth is going on?
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Northern Ireland... Not 200 years ago but 20... Everything takes time...
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"Oh, that's interesting. Taiwanese is not Chinese because they live in Taiwan? I lived in Beijing. I should call myself Beijingese but not Chinese then."
My family is originally from Germany. Should I call myself German then. The largest ethnic group in the United States is German. Should Germany annex the United States? There was this German guy who thought so. You might like him.
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I love James Reynolds!!! There, I said it, I love the guy. He's funny, his comical with his style and sure enough he's brought a lot of laughter into my day.
Cheer up folks, it's just a blog. At the end of the day, CCP is still the government of China. China is still on the rise, things are changing for the better. Taiwan will sort it self out.
As a Chinese born in China but raised in London, you learn that people are just plain ignorant no matter where they're from.
My cue to shut up now. Good night folks.
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To anderh,
You wrote:
"How you feel about a subject is irrelevant. How the population feels and votes about a subject makes a difference,"
While it's true that what the population of Taiwan thinks probably precedes what the population outside of Taiwan thinks in terms of Taiwanese independence, I don't think you can dismiss the relevance of what everyone else thinks if only for practical reasons.
By your logic, it doesn't matter what the majority of the commenters on this blog thinks, the debate's coverage on BBC is irrelevant, and it doesn't matter that James has started this debate because most of us don't live in Taiwan.
Practically speaking though, it matters.
The nations of the UN, when considering whether or not to recognize Taiwan as an independent nation, obviously matter. If China and Taiwan were to go to war over independence (unlikely in my opinion), the opinion of the world leaders and world citizens matter when it comes to blockades, embargoes, diplomatic pressure, military support and financial aid. James, even if he feels neutral about the issue, at least feels that it is significant enough to talk about on BBC, and is sure to bring this issue some publicity. Mass media outlets following the story may or may not sway the public to support for/against Taiwanese Independence, which will directly influence the feasibility of independence. If Taiwan is to become an independent nation, the opinion of 1.3 billion Chinese people matter because China is a major trading partner in East Asia if not the entire world. If the issue of independence matters to enough people, it will affect the political, social and financial security of the entire region.
So even if the Taiwanese are theoretically the only people capable of deciding their own sovereignty (and not everyone agrees with that either), there are a lot factors outside of just what the Taiwanese think that will determine the probability of Taiwan becoming independent.
In the world today, it is just as unrealistic to dismiss Chinese (or American, or French, or Korean, etc...) views on Taiwanese independence as irrelevant as it is to dismiss the impact of NGO's and diplomatic pressures on any country (China is a prime example) as irrelevant. It is only a matter of how relevant, and what kind of influence it will create.
You're right in that the power ultimately falls in the hands of the Taiwanese. If they truly want independence, and are willing to risk a war for it, they will get it. It might take years, sacrifice financial and social stability, and create a whole lot of resentment, but it's possible. (Just look at Ireland, or at least part of it, gaining independence after 900 years of British rule). But don't underestimate the relevance of a couple of Chinese bloggers (much less the opinion of the whole world) when it comes to determining the fate of Taiwan.
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Taiwan is Chinese. Tai means Typhoon. Wan means gulf. Taiwan is Chinese meaning Typhoon Island. The so-called Taiwan flag is the flag of ROC. ROC is defeated by PRC and fled to the Chinese Island called Taiwan. The Western military involvement prevented Taiwan from liberation.
Westerners claim that Chinese in China are wrong because they have no access to Western media. Westerners further claim that Chinese in the West are wrong because their blind patriotism kick in.
I find this view condescending. It is nothing new. I hear it on BBC shortwave in China 10 years ago. Here is my personal story explaining why I am so upset about Western media:
When I was in China, I have close to full freedom to all Western news. This is because BBC shortwave service, Voice of America, Christian Science Monitor and many other radio services are never blocked in China.
However, I was disturbed by their persistent sharp critiques on China. Like most Chinese, I receive a lot of benefit from our government. So, the West negative report on China did not make me hating my country. It made me curious about the ?wonderful? West which leads to my emigration to the US. I was really wondering how wonderful Christianity and democracy are.
After more than 10 years in the US, I am left speechless.
After 6 years sitting in all kinds of Christian churches in the US from Baptists to Lutheran, I am totally disgusted. I wonder how on earth these people can think they are the only thing right! It is plain bigotry and intolerance.
After personal struggle with the US grievance system, I am more delusional. The system does not work.
Then I remember my personal experience in China. I can only conclude that the Chinese government cares about her people MORE than the West. Yes, my personal experience tells me that the Chinese government cares about my human rights more than the West.
This is why I am so angry listening to the persistent anger and hostility from Western media. They have no clue about China.
The Western reporters have never lived in China. Many do not even speak Chinese.
They are just repeating their childhood hatred-indoctrination like a parrot. They only look at the negativities of China. They still think China is communistic. They really really have no clue.
It is safe to say most Western news reporters are hostile and ignorant against China, James Renold is no exception.
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londonlurker wrote:
"The dispute of the mainland and the island should be decided by Chinese people alone, not by the meddling of the west."
Absolutely not. The fate of Taiwan should be decided by the Taiwanese.
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If my parents and grandparents had lived through times of great poverty when they were young and barely had enough to eat through various famines then some guy who'd taken all my country's gold and money to another island would be my number one target for laying blame. This may explain a lot of the strong feelings here.
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2nd attempt to post this comment.
To be a country you need to be able to do the following:
1) Have an authority which controls an area which is recognized by the people of a that area. (Yes)
2) own currency. (Yes)
3) passport to enter or leave the area is required. (Yes - you need a visa to get in to China)
4) An Armed force which obeys the area's government and has the ability to defend it's borders. (Yes)
5) Has Allies - Yes, and we do have the biggest ally USA who might help us in the future as we are a democracy- hope McCain wins.
Taiwan is not recognised by the UN, but the reality it's a COUNTRY. It's people just want to support their families and live a quiet life.
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To maloneranger at entry 15,
You show being uncomfortable hearing the pro-PRC people's voices on Taiwan. We should let people to speak, what ever the points, but unacceptable not allow others voices to be aired. I cannot see your points, but denying people to speak.
Will England allow Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland go if people in each area want independence? Will the current parliament in London get involved to these independence?
Don't forget that it was the worships of Britain made Britain colonised Hongkong for a century. Some companies which earned their initial capital by slave trading still alive.
No BBC report lets you know the fact that Taiwan, called republic of china officially, considers mainland China as part of itself in constitution.
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It's good to see the audience cheer for him...as long as the public in Taiwan don't think it's propoganda.
I got friends from Taiwan and it shocked me a lot that their media describe mainland a place only better than hell. (yes even worse than some CNN or BBC coverage-_-|||) And this is a very normal thing for medias in countries around China like korea, japan, singapore.
It's normally people got overseas experience are very negtive on peaceful re-union of mainland and Taiwan and people doesn't read forgien news or have no oversea's experience are very positive and friendly because their hope aren't shattered/disappointed.
Let's hope relations between two sides get better and better and good luck to the 'warlord' =]
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Look, the truth of the matter is, whether you call it Taiwan, ROC, or even ?Chinese Taipei,? it is a separate entity from the PRC. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the ROC/Taiwan is a part of the PRC. After the civil war, the Communists never even set foot on Taiwan. The two sides have just existed separately for decades. I have yet to meet anyone who could rationally argue that the ROC/Taiwan is a part of China. In the Mainland, people just repeat the party line, base their arguments on emotion, or threaten violence. In the PRC, people always cite the, ?Taiwanese are ethnically Chinese? argument. Well, no one is really disputing that, but based on that argument, Singapore should also be part of the PRC. Also, no one is saying the ROC/Taiwan is not Chinese territory; it is, but it is part of the ROC. As for the international recognition argument; well, the PRC was not internationally recognized until the late 1970?s. So I guess the PRC did not come into existence until the 1970?s? Of course not, that is ridiculous! The fact is whether people admit it or not, the territory of Taiwan is governed separately, and the government in Taiwan is called the ROC.
The thing the PRC needs to understand is that most people in the ROC/Taiwan just want to be treated with respect and dignity. If the PRC just learned to stop degrading the ROC/ Taiwan things would certainly improve and perhaps even reunification could happen. I mean, just look at the mutual goodwill since President Ma came into power. History has proven that every time the PRC tries to intimidate the ROC/Taiwan, the people in Taiwan just dislike the PRC even more. In 1996-1997, when the PRC shot missiles into the Straight, Lee Tung-Hui got elected anyway. In 2000, after some harsh words from the PRC, Chen Shui-Bian won. The PRC needs to learn that brute force is rarely the answer. THE REAL ENEMIES OF A UNIFIED CHINA ARE NOT THE PEOPLE IN TAIWAN OR EVEN THE PEOPLE THAT WANT INDEPENDENCE, RATHER THEY ARE THE PEOPLE IN THE PRC WHO WANT TO DEGRADE AND OPPRESS THE ROC/TAIWAN AT EVERY POSSIBLE TURN, WHETHER IT BE IN THE WTO, WHO, UN, OR OLYMPICS. THIS UNDERHANDEDNESS TOWARD THE ROC/TAIWAN JUST FUELS DISTAIN FOR THE PRC. UNITY WILL ONLY COME THROUGH MUTUAL GOODWILL.
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Also, in response to an earlier post about how the Nationalists ?robbed? China; what people in the Mainland need to realize is that if all those Chinese treasures where not moved by the Nationalists for all those years during WWII and the civil war, either the Japanese would have gotten to them or the Communists themselves would have destroyed it all during the Cultural Revolution. I mean look at all the historical relics that were lost during Mao?s era. Do you really think all the priceless objects taken to Taiwan would have survived in the Mainland? I doubt it. So instead of accusing the Nationalists of stealing, why don?t you thank them for saving thousands of years of history?
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To anderh, londonlurker and any other Chinese (or Taiwanese if you like) here:
Let's stop talking about the issue of Taiwan on this blog. Neither side of you will win, never. There were many similar discussions on bbs already (of course in Chinese, not in English, between young mainlanders and Taiwaners) , most of which led to the same result: war.
Yes, we mainlanders are friendly to Taiwaners, not only in Olympics, but also in everyday life. But when we come to this issue, which actually means the fight between China and US, we will never change our attitude, no matter what other people say. So communication between the two sides is important but will not change anything.
I think what we can do is to stop argue with each other and to spend more time on our own work. When both of us are strong enough to say no to the US, we can solve this problem peacefully by ourselves. (Although you might say i am kidding...US is ten times stronger than any of us...)
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It's still not clear however, why Taekwando is an Olympic event at all unless sport is not only politics by other means but war by other means as well. It's also rather curious, the divergent views vis a vis the IOC and FIFA regarding British participation. Wheras in the Olympics the GBR is a single entity, but in football the 'home nations' are firercely independent and are given a special dispensation by FIFA to wrap themselves in their own indiviual 'national' flags. Which has produced the obvious problem when the two overlap, of whether or not to field a GBR football team at the Olympics. The best solution would probably be to rmake the whole question moot by dropping football from the Olympics altogether (along with Taekwando) and a lot of other extraneous events. Nonetheless, the problems faced by athletes from Taiwan/Taipei, or just about any other Olympic 'nation', pale dramatically in comparison to those endured by would-be competitors from Palestine. A flag is about all they have thanks to the US and Britain. Yes, sadly , "Palestine isn't independent but it wants to be", the most poignant line in any Olympic blog to date. Congratulations to the four courageous Palestinian athletes who somehow overcame overwhelming obstacles to even make it to these Games at all. That's an Olympian feat in itself!
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ah, i think i made a mistake in the comment above~i should correct it:
"most of which led to the same result: war." should be:
"most of which got the same conclusion: war."
sorry for my poor English...but Chinese seems not acceptable on this website. Obviously we are not welcome here. We'd better leave this issue to the english speakers (or other languages using such letters), maybe they know China and Taiwan better than we do.
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How in the world did that whole (UK) flag issue get so blown up? I even stopped reading the conversation about China/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei/British colonies/Russian brutality to read the flag thing! (Come on, TWO names for a flag? I know it's important, but not THAT important.)
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And judging from a quick glance of the C/CT/T/Bc/Rb (A not-so-quick abbreviation for the thing that I was talking about not reading at first), it's the same as usual. Whether it's CCTTBcRb or fencing, it never changes. Look, people, GET YOURSELF A FORUM! This is for discussing the news (wait, I'M not discussing the news right now, but who cares), not for political rhetoric/propaganda/argument/poor English, with an abbreviation of Pr/p/a/pE.
(Who created the idiotic name of "Chinese Taipei"? Just call it Taiwan. Hong Kong is considered, this time, part of China by 250% of the world, and I don't see them competing as "Chinese Hong Kong", just as I don't think I remember seeing, pre-1997, "British Hong Kong".)
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Put it simply,
the Communists in Mainland China are like the Roundheads in the early English Civil War, and Taiwan Nationalists(KMT) are the defeated Cavaliers.
The current situation in China is like the the Roundheads are controlling Wales, Northern Ireland,Scotland and England, but the Cavaliers still hold Jersey, Isle of Wight and a dozen more islands, and still claims the right to entire territory of UK including whole of Ireland.
I hope this will clearify, the Chinese revival does take time and efforts, from both sides.
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Note to 13
I should say you don't know much about china and chinese. There is a saying in Chinese,"????" (please translate it yourself,if you don't know Chinese, sorry.). you know before the PRC was formally founded, China was actually devided into many parts by differnt warlords. But we finally united as one except Taiwan of course. cause The defeated Nationalists fled there and ruled it until now whoes formally name is " The Repubic of China" so it is actually " china'. and it's constitution says it's a part of china.
And another one, Taiwan issue is surely our internal affair. or is it anything to do with GB?
By the way, if Scotland chooses to break away from GB, you mean you would let it go? ha, i should say you are so generous.
or just because GB(or just England) are not capable of preventing scotland from doing that. As far as i know, Serbians don't Kosovo go, Georgians don't want to let South Ossetia go. English is no exception. but GB just can't help that. you know," might is right"
Besides, scotish is not english or welsh. but Taiwan and mainland are all chinese. (i know a lot of people in taiwan call them taiwaness, just as i may call myself Jiangxiness,???)
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Note to 15
here i'd like to correct some of your mistakes
we come here because there are too many distorted reports about china, we want to correct them and return it to be a true, not a lie. it has nothing to do with freedom. we are actually free to post our comments online. so what you said is not true, we are happy and willing to accept criticism which could help improve ourselves. but we can't torlerate bias and distortion.
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i dyingly support 27
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China has the same right to claim jurisdiction over Taiwan that Britain has over Ireland, i.e none. There are people on both sides of the Irish Sea that still regret Ireland's departure from the Union but the great majority of the Irish people living in Ireland decided what they wanted for themselves and the whole world respects that, Britain in particular.
China should stop threatening Taiwan and let them go their own way. Guess what China - not everyone wants to be subject to single party "communism". Get over it!
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To Comment 99,
Taiwan has his right to claim independent, they can just go ahead and do it. US can have military base around the world, he may want to have one in Taiwan as well, go ahead and do it.
Doogletastic, if you want to fight for Taiwan's independent, go ahead and do it.
Why not just action it, why not?
So just get over it.
Thanks
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To whinejunkie No.70,
Thank you! You are exactly making my point.
Isn't 'The National Geographic poll' supported to be respectable? Yet you can always find holes and problems.
I didn't "used the vague description *young Americans* and intentionally avoided the specific narrow age range.", I simply copied the exact words from National geography website.
Check it out. It's still there.
"Statistics are factual figures, but you have to do your own analysis with these figures."
Here is something for you. The script from TV series 'The West Wing':
JOSH
Numbers don't lie.
JOEY
They lie all the time. They lie when 72% of Americans say they're tired of a sex scandal,
while all the while, newspaper circulation goes through the roof for anyone featuring
the story. If you polled a hundred Donnas and asked them if they think we should go out, you'd get a high positive response. But, the poll wouldn't tell you it's because she
likes you. And she's knows it's beginning to show and she needs to cover herself with
misdirection.
Got it?
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To anderh No.77
"My family is originally from Germany. Should I call myself German then. The largest ethnic group in the United States is German. Should Germany annex the United States? There was this German guy who thought so. You might like him. "
Is that the same thing? THere are 98% Han ethnics in Taiwan. Therefore whatever you call them, they are still Chinese. 66% Taiwanese like the name Republic of CHINA for a reason.
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To comment 100, sorry rrrrzzzz, I am too busy plotting the invasion and reoccupation of Ireland to involve myself with Taiwan in any meaningful sense.
Maybe next week.
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i know some taiwanese, who is suffering a little bit about their national identity. she is not confident when people asking taiwan's relations with china, her answer is that's a complicated problem.
taiwan is a mixed and not homogenous society. its people are made up of aboriginals, 2nd generation chinese imigrants, 6/7th generation chinese imigrants, people with janpanese blood, and new imigrant people from other countries. it is fair for them to decide whether they should be independent.
however, taiwan's role in the international stage is not decided totally by the taiwanese people! the referendum's failure early this year reflected the various conflicts within the island. Attitudes differs from pro- taiwan, pro-china, to neutral.
it's should not be forgotten US played and is playing a big role across china and taiwan strait. why republic of china( now, only taiwan) is out of united nation, people's republic of china is in, why taiwan can't be a independant country recognized in the begining (since 1949).
The status quo is a result of the balance of different internationl powers.
Even the current president Ma yingjiu can't declare independence, nor can he see two sides united in his life( as he said after stepping in).
Does China need to incoporate taiwan?
can there be any interest in the action? The chinese government sees more through than anyone of us here. no chinese and taiwanese want to see what's happening in Gori rehappening on each soil.
Healthy economic relations with taiwan benifits both sides. that's the issue both government is working at.
After the olympic games, promoting chinese internal demands is in the center. The government is making it clear.
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The Chinese logic seems to dictate: A party is defeated in war and flees to a nearby island. Since the island has never declared independence they are still technically part of the country where they fled from.
If the originating nation then lays claim to that island which has been inhabited for thousands of years is it not then a colony of the original land?
Just because a number of the inhabitants are the same race as the new ruler, does this justify their leadership?
Just because some locals cheered the KMT's arrival does that justify colonisation?
I thought China was a peaceful nation and didn't colonise other lands?
The REAL issue seems to be that the KMT ran off with all the money, gold and historical artefacts whilst the grandparents/parents of the current generation writing on here starved and suffered extreme poverty. Well if Taiwan handed all this back along with the descendants of those original KMT members would you still lay claim to Taiwan?
Yet again, due to the absence of solid reasoning the only way the Chinese mainlanders can conduct an argument on Taiwan is to bring up an issue which they think will emote similar feelings of patriotism:
"By the way, if Scotland chooses to break away from GB, you mean you would let it go?."
Well, that's fine with me if that's what they want.
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To Senlin No.105,
"The Chinese logic seems to dictate: A party is defeated in war and flees to a nearby island. Since the island has never declared independence they are still technically part of the country where they fled from."
Not exactly. Taiwan is not just a 'nearby island'. There are 98% Han ethnics on it. If you call it colonization, fine. But it's not like European colonization, which go half way around the world to claim lands. The island is next to the mainland. And immigration is only natural.
Qing government has been controling Taiwan and was its rightful ruler. Otherwise Japan wouln't need a treaty to take Taiwan away.
The tie between mainland and the island is not just a runaway government. There are much more. Both sides share the same culture, languague and values. Is it only natural for the same ethnic group to join together. Not like Ireland and Scotland, where they are celtics and vikings, when english are mostly germanic.
Repeat my question in comment 27 here:
Would you guys allow Scotland to declare independent 'freely'. If Scotland has taken all the money in London and ran away, while Scotland will then be armed by Russia?
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Changing the subject slightly, am I the only person who thinks that the IOC are causing the problems?
What is wrong with bringing in "flags of non-Olympic and Paralympic participating countries/regions")? Is there any good reason for the ban on English/Scottish/Welsh/Taiwan flags?
I'm seriously disillusioned with the IOC. They ban regional flags, they strip the bronze medal off the wrestler who wanted to make a protest (despite him congratulating the gold medal winner). They try to go against the original olympic ideals of amateur participation by trying to prevent people like last olympics' "Eric the Eel" from taking part.
How about an olympics where we appreciate sporting prowess, value the sportsmanship amongst the competitors, and celebrate the athletes trying their hardest? Then we can have an IOC that keeps out of the political side of things and puts the sport centre stage.
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I am an Australian who has been living in China for some time now. My wife is Chinese and I also speak Chinese fluently. I also lived for some time in Taiwan, so I can speak with a little authority when talking about Taiwan having lived and worked closely with Taiwanese people.
What's interesting is that when ever you ask a Chinese person if they've ever asked a Taiwanese person how they feel about the mainland or the Central Governement, of course the answer is they don't actually know. This might have something to do with the fact that until recently they couldn't even go to somewhere they claim as theirs anyway. However, the simple answer is that no one in China actually knows how Taiwanese people feel because they've never really bothered to ask them. Maybe if they did, they would actually find out that whilst Taiwanese certainly feel their Chinese ethnicity and heritage, as a nation they don't actually see themselves as part of China at all but as a seperate independent nation. I know this will outrage some Chinese people but maybe you should actually ask the Taiwanese themselves how they feel rather than simply telling them what they're meant to think.
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to londonlurker #107
When you start arguing KMT robbed all the money and treasures from CCP, I could as well say CCP robbed the entire mainland from KMT, as PRC didn't even exist as a country prior to 1949. Don't sound as if CCP were the only rightful ruler in China.
When you start using ethnicity as an argument, you could as well claim Japan and Korea back into China (PRC I suppose?). The culture and language arguments make some sense but they are not reasons that Taiwan must be stuck with mainland. I mean, if the Taiwanese want to go, let them go!
If CCP really wants a unification, they should stop behaving like they are any superior to KMT or whoever rules Taiwan. Then they might have a chance. But if the Taiwanese make up their minds one day and decide independence, I just don't think CCP has any legitimate reasons to take military actions against it.
Also, to hope Taiwanese would accept at this point the 'one country, two systems' like with which Hong Kong is run now is just not realistic. The Taiwanese are used to their democracy and with the Hong Kong system, there's hardly any democracy at all. You gotta respect this fact and try to come up with something that really works with them. Otherwise, no chance.
Personally I suspect this problem will at least stay for a few more decades before something that really works with unification comes up.
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Republic of China controls Taiwan island, Lianjiang County, Matsu Islands and Kinmen.
Please, Please, do not abandon other citizen of Republic of China.
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The situation of Scotland is differrent from Taiwan.
Scottish are celtics, but Taiwanese are Han Chinese people.
The situation of the USA is different from Taiwan.
Because the USA is a immigrant country.
The situation of Singapore is different from Taiwan.
Because it WAS a part of Malaysia. Holland force Chinese to immigrate to there. Chinese never think Singapore is part of China.
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The truth is :
One China policy is well accepted by most of governments in the world.
There are two government named by China.
1-People's Republic of China (Mainland)
2-Republic of China (Taiwan)
Taiwan is divided into three political groups.
Pro-reunification, Pro-independence, neutral.
The fate of Taiwan is determined by the USA and the PRC.(It is sad and unfair for Taiwanese but it is true.)
Most of Taiwanese do not want to be ruled by CCP. But it does not mean they want to be independent.
Due to the propoganda in cold war and differrent ideaology, there is hatres toward mailnd still in Taiwan.
Please, please, do not caompare the situation between Taiwan and Scotland or the USA.
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I really think James is lack of knowledge of China.
But I do think James is try his best to learn, to dig it deeper.
It is impolite to laugh at him.
Taiwan issue is very very complicated. Even in Taiwan, the altitude toword mainland is totally different.
Please Please respect any political ideas. (what ever pro-reunification or pro- independence)
If you want to realize your dream. Just do it.
PS: China is not PRC
PRC is the only legal goverment in the UN.
But it does not mean PRC is China.
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To heyone No.110
"When you start arguing KMT robbed all the money and treasures from CCP, I could as well say CCP robbed the entire mainland from KMT, as PRC didn't even exist as a country prior to 1949. Don't sound as if CCP were the only rightful ruler in China."
I've never argued that KMT robbed CCP. KMT robbed Chinese people. The money KMT taken away belonged to Chinese people. Who cares who rules who, the money is ours.
Please, don't change concepts. It's not the will of CCP to unite China, It's the will of Chinese people.
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To: julianrocks
The funny thing is that Taiwannese have different identity toward different groups.
To Chinese in mainland, Taiwannese claims them Taiwannese but it does not mean they are not Chinese. They want to show their difference from Chinese from mainland. Because they think they are better than Chinese from mailand. (Pro-independence hates Chinese, Pro-reunification think they are real Chinese who preserve the culture better than mainland)
To westerner, some part of them definitely refuse to admit they are Chinese, but some part of them will tell you they are Chinese.
If you are really care about Taiwan, you can see some political debate in Taiwan. The identity is quite difficult problem for them.
But now, their president are Pro-reunification, he admitted that reunification will not happen even until he died due to the reality.
But still more than 3 million people accuse him sell Taiwan to China.
It is not a simple question who is right or wrong.
Pro-reunification and Pro-independence shall be respected equally. But in my opinion, Pro-reunification has much more influence around the world.
And even Taiwan becames a independent country, Taiwan will face seperatism because the different political ideas.
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At least 5 decades,
there will not be a solution between reunification and independence.
Some politican just use it as a tool to gain their power.
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re comment 109 - exactly
ask a person born on this island the very basic question (in English or Chinese 'Where are you from?' and the answer you will without fail get back is 'I'm from Taiwan.' Not 'China,' not 'the ROC' and certainly not the ludicrous 'Chinese Taipei.' Taiwan is a country independent from China, and only mere semantics attempts to disguise this fact.
londonlurker et al, it's not the will of the Taiwanese people to be forcibly reunited with your lot across the strait, so frankly who cares about the supposed 'will of the Chinese people.' How do you know this is the will of the Chinese people? Who elected you as spokesman for 1 billion +?
The people of Taiwan's reaction to attempted interference in its internal affairs by China to its democratic process has been consistent (see comment 86) - mind your own businsess!
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"Your poll clearly says when applying for U.N. membership, while nearly as many (64%) said they would be supportive of the government using the name 'Republic of China' in when applying for membership. Doesn't that mean 64% of Taiwanese will consider themselves as Chinese and they want to claim the mainland?"
No. 64% of us won't consider ourselves as Chinese, but Taiwanese. We DON'T want to claim the mainland. Only the long dead Chiang Kai-shek and his son wanted to claim China. When Lee Teng-hei (also a Nationalist/KMT) took over, it was already different.
Many Taiwanese don't mind using the name "Republic of China" in consideration for the feelings of those (and their children) who fled to Taiwan. Without those Chiang's people, I think, we want the proper name of FORMOSA or TAIWAN.
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"... I for one don't feel any 'glory' by keeping Taiwan and its people down."
Then, let go of Taiwan and its people.
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Let's put in a simple way...if China is such a great country, they don't need to force Taiwan to be part of them. Apparently, they are not. That's why taiwanese people are not interested to be part of them. However, Chinsese people here choose to ignore the truth.
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This might be my highlight of the Beijing Games. Silamu Hanati of China winning the gold in boxing.
Hanati of Xinjiang province will prove to western doubters that people of his native province are one with China.
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One thing I don't understand - and I will probably not understand since I'm a Mainlander - is "why not?"
Why not ask yourself the question "should we be reunited with the Mainland?"
You always question us, "why should we be united with you?" But we never ask you "why should you not be reunited with us?"
We share a common lineage.
We have geographical proximity.
Your riches are, in fact, from us, and the US.
Why not ask yourself this question: "What will we gain and what will we lose from uniting with Mainland?"
And then you'll see why not. It's not so much of an ideological reason as many of you so claimed, but an economical reason: you'll lose the economical support of the US; you'll also lose the ability to travel freely abroad with no "visa".
Down to the core, you want money. US economy is collapsing. How long can you rely on US money?
Next, why not ask yourself this question: "What will we gain and what will we lose from becoming independent from the Mainland?"
And then you'll see why not. Again, it's an economical reason to maintain the status quo: even if China don't use their artillery and missiles (that can cover the whole island of Taiwan), they can impose strict economic sanctions on Taiwan, including heavy taxes and restriction of trade between the two regions. This is going to lead to an economic collapse on the island itself. And the PRC is not known to use this kind of "peaceful" countermeasures.
So, you people who think that you have a whole new identity, please use your brains, and maintain the status quo until the time of reunification comes.
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We have now reached an amazing, amazing milestone. Great Britain has never won more than 43 Olimpic medals on forign soil. The only time we "minted" more was in London in Edwardian times when the tug of war was a medal event. With the Boxing medals in the bag we will pass this milestone, and win this particular tug of war. Wow.
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to: lukaigirl
I am curious about your statistics.
Why Taiwannese elect President Ma who is pro-reunification.
Actually, the previous Pro-indepence President Chen ask a poll of identity.
37% Taiwannese
17% Chinese
46% Both Chinese and Taiwannese
It is done by a Pro-independece government.
What do you think about it?
If you want to Taiwan to be a independent country.
Work harder so that you have something can negotiate with mainland.
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Seperatism is a big problem all around the world.
The Taiwan issue is too sensitive between the both side of Taiwan strait.
Generally, it is difficult to communicate.
Taiwan has its own government and currency, but it does not mean it is a country.
Yeah, it is sad to say fate of Taiwan is determined by government of the USA and the PRC.
But it is true, deal with it.
I am not happy with this situation, but this is the real world.
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The USA is a ally of Taiwan?
That's so naive.
How many times the USA betrayed Taiwan?
Taiwan must depend on itself.
What ever reunification or independence.
The USA just care about how to gain more resources and how to prevent China and Russia to be a strong rival.
China own Taiwan a big apology, because China let this island slaughter by Japanese.
I knew some people still like Japanese and think KMT kill more than 20,000 Taiwannese.
But at least, KMT never use women as sex slave.
Taiwannese need to know, without mailand, the economy will be destroyed.
Either reunification or independence, the relationship with mainland is the main topic of Taiwan.
Ethnically, 98% Taiwannese are Chinese, nationally, half of them disagree they are Chinese.
Because of KMT, some Taiwannese hate Chinese including Taiwannese who are Chinese.
This is not democracy.
Accept it, Taiwan is a self-governing area, which has identity problems.
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GB has a great time during Beijing Olympics.
Your government invested a lot in cycling.
I guesee you will get more than 20 gold medals in London.
Go, Great Britain.
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If a country has its own goverment and currency not mean it's a country, what makes a country to be a country?
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Two referenda on joining the United Nations,
the first supported by the DPP of President Chen and the second supported by the KMT, failed due to low turnout.
Prior to the vote, the KMT had encouraged its supporters to boycott the DPP referendum, and expressed its "understanding" if supporters boycotted both.
All the Taiwannese want to join the UN.
But DPP want to use this referendum to declare independence, that is why both of referenda failed
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re maloneranger:
you mentioned this:"If the West is to respect China and its citizens as equals, It needs to see that Chinese individuals are able to think for themselves and can accept criticism. Until then, the relationship will be unequal and the West will seem suspicious and patronising.
Take the situation of Taiwan- no one in Taiwan considers themselves part of the PRC- and they are free to decide! In China, everyone thinks it is 'part' of the PRC- and no one is allowed to object to this!"
Please distinguish the conception of "China" and "PRC". In my mind China is more about a cultural issue, mainly covering the Mainland, Hong Kong, Marco, and Taiwan. Taiwan used to be, currently is, and will always be a member of Chinese community, due to the strong cultural and blood tie. The problem is, there is a wrong notion among the 1.3 billion mainland people that Taiwan is rejecting its Chinese nature, but actually Taiwan is just denying PRC/comunist administration, because the Taiwanese are scared of "corruption and despotism".
I can understand and feel their panic of being communistly rules and I respect their choice. But I am confident that PRC is progressing towards a world-leading position which drives these Taiwanese back to Beijing's arm, becasue PRC definitely has changesd a lot in terms of democracy, economy, and people's way of thinking--hopefully you have seen this via this Olympic. Although you might think this is still barren , you can't require a baby to run as fast as Champion Bolt, can you?
Obviously China's democracy progress is in its infancy. Communists are not born to be "evil", and at the beginning of their revolution they were really in behave of poor labours, but things changed as their finished building their empire, just like every revolution story in the world, i think. So now we are putting our efforts to change this empire, into a real republic.
As the age of the really democratic republic arrives, Taiwanese will welcome PRC rule deeply from their hearts. They cannot survive without the PRC-- this is the truth because Ameracians cannot umbrella them forever, and Japanese are threatening them. All we need is just the time.
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I think a lot of arguments on the status of Taiwan are rooted at the word "china". Actually the pro-independent DPP has played a lot on it. In my opinion, the Peoples' republic of China has never had sovereignty over Taiwan because when Taiwan was returned to CHINA after WW2, the regime that was ruling the whole China was called the Republic of China and the ruling party was the same KMT as it is in Taiwan now. The PRC did not even exist then. Having said that, I do strongly emphasise that "CHINA" has had sovereignty over Taiwan at least since WW2 (of course at least another few hundred years before it was ceded to Japan in 1895).
There are just so many people who say 'CHINA' never has sovereignty over Taiwan actually mean the PRC but only now almost everybody equates 'CHINA' to 'The Peoples' Republic of China'. This is where the confusion starts.
Although I believe that Taiwan is part of China, I do support that the people on the island have their right to make their decision on their future but it must be free from foreign interference, mainly Japan and the US. A seperated Taiwan which is not so freindly to China is to the best interest of these two countries. That is why these 2 countries has always been supportive to the independent movement.
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From the posts I've been reading on this blog, I get the feeling that the confidence of the Chinese people - or rather the lack of it - shows not so much in the contents of their posts, but in that the Chinese seem to feel threatened whenever any opinion different to theirs has emerged.
As to the status of Taiwan, which was the subject of debates a couple of days ago, I am forever amused that as always, in open debates such as this, Chinese posters never fail to demonstrate to the world just how they have contributed in a significant way to the ever growing pro-independence sentiments of the Taiwanese.
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To xuanyuangui
My mother requested the ballot on which had both the "referenda." She was ignored. As an elderly, she was confused, and walked out. Once out, she wasn't allowed in again. In the end she didn't get her referendum ballot, but she did get her presidential election ballot.
I didn't know DPP wanted to use the referrendum to declare independence. Where did you get the news from? I think the US wouldn't have let it happen, and DPP certainly knew it. DPP only wanted to air a voice.
Both referenda failed because many people didn't get all their ballots.
lukai
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to Xuanyuangui:
You wrote, "Why Taiwanese elect President Ma who is pro-reunification."
The Taiwanese read the paper and was promised that Ma was going to lift them off the present situation of world economy. Further, Chen failed the economy but Ma was going to save the economy.
You also wrote, " ... Chen ask a poll of identity.
37% Taiwanese
17% Chinese
46% Both Chinese and Taiwanese."
I am not aware of the poll but neverthless if you take 46 divided by 2 plus 37, you get 60, which is over 51.
Please refer back to Blogger Anderh #30, who has a different presentation, which is carried out by Zogby International.
79% Taiwan
64% ROC
5% Chinese
Lukai
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to: brownordinarypeople
Constitution of Republic of China says: Taiwan is part of China. There is only one China.
I am sure lots of people like you want to change this constitution, but the truth is you do not have the power to change it.
To be honest, many areas have their own goverment and currency, such as scotland and Porto Rico.
But the difference is Taiwan has their own military and their politics is not influenced by Beijing directly.
If you want, you can think Taiwan is a country.
However, at first a modern country must be recognized by most of countries in the world.
Secondly, if most of Taiwannese support Taiwan independence, then you can decalre Taiwan is a country.
Pro-reunification and Pro-independence in Taiwan hate each other. Previous pro-independence President Chen want to kick the Pro-reunification people out of Taiwan.
This is a big problem of you, you have some many conflicts.
Again, it is sad and unfair to say the fate of Taiwan is not determined by yourselves. But it is true.
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to sheriffCartman #2
Please read anderh's #23 for your " ... China had rule over Taiwan until the civil war ...."
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"The government in Taiwan has committed war crime, robbed mainland to almost bancruptcy, left the rest of Chinese people in a post-war ruin, while themselves become wealthy with the gold they've taken away."
Please ... the 85% of Taiwanese and aborigenes never saw any gold from Chiang Kai-shek's regime. People were so poor back then that the US had to send second-hand clothing and food to the island's churches for distribution. Before the civil war China was already a poor country from previous wars and forever ongoing corruption. You cannot blame China's misery on Taiwan. Taiwan's prosperity was based on small to medium size family businesses in the 1980s. Please get the facts. The relics are the real things KMT brought to Taipei's National Museum. Why don't you (can you represent PRC?) ask KMT for the gold and relics?
Who become wealthy with the gold they've taken away? Be more specific.
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"Japan took over Taiwan from the last dynasty of China, and returned to China after it was defeated in 1945 ...."
Japan as a defeated didn't have the authority to return its colony to China, according to the international law. Please read #23 anderh's history.
"... last time I checked, it's official name is 'Republic of China'...."
Switzerland and Swaziland are similar but are two different countries. South Africa doesn't mean the whole of Africa.
"... recent incident when Japan's warship wrecked Taiwanese fishing boat at Taiwanese island called Diao-Yu-Tai. All Taiwanese fishing boat owner can do was crying."
Japan has apologized over and over with compensation.
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londonlurker
Convince me please of your figures from your comments at #66. Please give me the name of the source, page numbers etc...
Other than that, I must tell you that the Japanese wanted Taiwan for a reason: its resources, and while getting at it, the Japanese built the infuastructure still existed in Taiwan. For you to discredit the Japanese and to get credit from your claim of "stolen golds" for Taiwan's prosperity is childish. What about the hard work the environmental pollution in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s?
The comment: "... their society has been entirely based on this wealth." is outrageously MISLEADING.
Do you know why the US had to bomb Japan and Japan's colony, Taiwan? It was precisely the infuastructure. Get the facts really good before you go online.
lukai
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Kyonko (#129)
You wrote: "Your riches are, in fact, from us, and the US."
I almost dropped dead on reading this line. This is just so far out. I know there are about one million businessmen doing business in China. With their moving the factories and offices from Taiwan to China, has made many of us jobless.
Let me tell you what I know of those bussinessmen. They are a bunch of entrepreneurs who started doing export just like China is doing today. They only started earlier. Their business are small to medium size family companies. They might have started with a saved capital with the whole family working, and the business grew and grew. Eventually they opened up real factories hiring workers. Workers got tired of cheap salary and organized unions. The boss got mad and moved the factory to your country, China, for cheaper labor. One followed another and before you knew it, the whole island was without real functioning offices. There were someone to answer the phone but no one else.
I know of business people who were robbed in the mainland and came back with nothing, or else. On reading your line I all of a sudden, understand deeper into the problem of why Taiwanese businessmen are often robbed in China. Pardon me if by saying so I offend you, but it is a fact. Rumors are powerful. I was told CCP used to spread rumors against KMT to bring KMT down. I was told but I am open-minded about it.
About the US.
I remember getting used clothes and canned foods as donations from the US in the late 1950s. That was all. Nothing more. It is a rumor that the US is giving Taiwan money.
lukai
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to: lukaigirl
Actually, you don't need to quote the legal resons for Taiwan Independence from your website, because I read it a lot of times. And it is ridiculous. Otherwise, you already get the support from the UN.
Japan robbed your island and sank your boats, then they apologized with compensation.
SO That's it?????
Diao Yu Tai is OK with you?
Yeah, there are at least 3% people in Taiwan are Japanese, they want independence, they love Japan more than Taiwan.
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The prosperity of Taiwan is due to hard working.
The gold robbed from mainland does not help a lot.
The money from the US is focus on military.
Taiwan's economy mainly depend on ODM (OriginalDesignManufacturer) .
Do not depreciate the contribution of Taiwannese.
We must respect it, because it is ture.
But the legal reason for independence is just a joke.
By the way, the world is ruled by the power not the international laws.
The US, Russia always broke the laws without any punishment.
International laws is just for big brother to bully weak countries.
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To lukaigirl No.147
londonlurker
"Convince me please of your figures from your comments at #66. Please give me the name of the source, page numbers etc..."
I'm not oblige to convince you at all. You can just find this information yourself if you are 'really' interested. Go to a library in Tainwan and that'll do. Or if you must, search 'what KMT has taken away when defeated' in chinese in baidu, you will get many sources.
"Do you know why the US had to bomb Japan and Japan's colony, Taiwan? It was precisely the infuastructure. Get the facts really good before you go online."
Um, that is outragously interesting. Japan tried to colonize Taiwan and killed whoever rised against them on the island, and US boomed Taiwan, but you loved them both. Quite a character Taiwanese have. What have Chinese done to you to make you hate China so much? Not killing your people?
I know this will be deleted. thanks James the moderator.
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to Xuanyuangui
I think the world needs a policeman or Taiwan would have dec lared INDPDCE for China to exercise her bicepts tricepts: Isn't that what you want? No chance for Taiwan. Taiwan "buys" fighters from the US, not any donation like the c lothes and foods in the past. I agree that the invasion for oil was wrong but doesn't China holds on to Tibet for the treasure buried under? The Big Sister China is blocking Taiwan's membership into the UN. There is nothing so ridiculous about Taiwan's trying for the UN.
Tell an old-fart like me that China doesn't want to be the world superpower to flex her musc les is the same as telling me she wants to go back to the time of closed door period. No way. She just had her sweet sixteenth huge party. She is now a member of world family. Bad news, she now has big and little brothers and sisters to deal with. She is no more the "only child." You guys, defame insult disrespect harass bully... us Taiwanese at various internet chartrooms in the Chinese language and even in English, has made us loathe you guys. I think the world, at least we Taiwanese, are scared of the fanaticism she displays on national sentiment and aggression on the little guy Taiwan.
Even though the Japanese, Koreans and part of Taiwanese are more related by blood, the 3 also share genes with the Chinese. The blood card here doesn't play very well. I'm Taiwanese not Japanese. Who cares whether I am this or that since all races are related by blood. My country folks do like Japan more than China because on many levels Taiwan is more similar to Japan than China. At least Taiwan is in between. If Japan's apology and compensation aren't enough, do you suggest a death penalty? As far as Diao Yu Tai is concerned, I know not enough to comment on it.
lukai
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To lukaigirl,
I'm sorry but you think US is a policeman?? US stand for 'justice' because they 'support' your independence? Can we not kid ourselves about what is 'justice' here?
Do you honestly think that Taiwan would even be a breakaway territory if US hasn't been involved in Chinese cilvil war? US supported KMT for controling the whole China befor it was defeated. If Taiwan wasn't part of China, how could KMT possibly retreated there? If US hasn't been arming Taiwan, how could Taiwan not be claimed back when PRC was founded?
You know what is a better analogy here? I will give you one:
Taiwan is a dishonest wife who takes all the money in the family and runs away with a guy whom she is having affair with. There isn't a proper divorce but she now wants to have one, with the support of that guy. Tell me what a policeman would say about this.
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to londonlurker
The police would first find out if the couple was actually married. Living-together is not the same as being married, but many guys see living-together the same as a legitimate formal marriage.
Did the CCP put all the history into your textbook or only the Japanese occupation? The reason the US was involved in China was because of Madam Chiang's appeal to fight the Japanese. The money was supposed to be used for fighting the Japanese but Chiang got confused. Back then the Allied nations were fighting Germany, Italy, and Japan. The US was fighting with Japan which was invading China. The US did not intentionally want to be involved in the Chinese civil war. Believe me, neither did the Taiwanese ask for any of this messy stuff.
Mao should have taken a boat to go across the Taiwan Strait if he was so powerful to take over mainland China. In fact Mao had said China wanted to help Taiwan with the independence issue. Chiang was asked by the US to declare independence for Taiwan but Chiang was too ashamed to do it. Face-losing was a sin.
If Japan together with Germany and Italy were the victor instead of the defeated, do you think Japan would have given up Taiwan? No way. And today China would be raising hell demanding Japan to give back the island? But Taiwan had become part of Japan since 1895. When an old-fashioned Chinese man sold his concubine to someone else, that was it. The woman found life better without the man who got rid of her, and he really had no rights what so ever to want the woman back. Anyway the woman was old without valuable resources. Get a new concubine or get a new girlfriend.
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To: Lukaigirl
Yeah, it is quite common that pro-independence political leader said Mailand abandon his wife Taiwan to Japan.
And due to KMT's policy, some Taiwannese thought they are second-class citizen.
I am sorry for our grand-grand-parents can not defend this country, to sell Taiwan to Japan. And I am sorry for KMT's tough policy toward local people.
But just give us a break.
There is no solution in 50 years about Taiwan issue.
You were victims, but if you still live in this situation, there is no hope for your independent dream.
The current situation is we are pro-reunification, you are pro-independence. Both of us do not want WAR.
SO let's work and live friendly, leave this sensitive problem later.
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There really is no flag of China or flag of Taiwan. The flags used as national flags originated as party flags. The flag of China is, in fact, just a symbol of the Communist Party. The Taiwanese flag is a Kuomintang symbol. The DPP in Taiwan has its own flag. When the current Chinese regime ultimately chokes on inflation, pollution, drought and corruption, you can be sure their flag will fade and be forgotten.
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I am intrigued by some of the arguments used unashamedly above by many (presumably Chinese nationals and those living overseas of Chinese heritage) to justify China's stance on various political issues:
Message 54: Taiwanese are mostly Han Chinese and so should be re-united with China. (So should the Uighurs and Tibetans break free if they are not Han Chinese?)
Message 51: 'Might is right.' (How different are the Chinese today from those 'devious British imperialists' who annexed Hong Kong using 'gunboat' policy?)
Message 21: Selling arms to Sudan is morally right. (Then please stop complaining about the Opium War.)
European imperialism was founded on contemporary short-sighted benefits of trade and many colonial masters knew that their 'maritime' empires, consisting of subjects of different skin colours whose foreign heritage they could never totally eradicate, were not meant to last forever. Britain, in particular, was willing to let go its colonies when it was time for her to leave. However, the 'contiguous' empire of China has been based on insidious yet perpetual annexation and assimilation of neighbours. China has fooled the whole world by presenting herself as the victim to western imperialism of the 19th century. However, it has for 5,000 years had its share of subjugating neighbouring ethnic groups of the same skin colour, feats no less imperialistic than a white nation conquering a non-white country 8,000 miles away. To justify its territorial claims and to make the occupation look less imperialistic, the subjugated had to be 'Sinoised', thus the ensuing cultural genocide (many so-called Chinese 'dialects' are actually totally different from Mandarin but stripped of their written versions).
Most people in the West are not jealous of the rise of China or trying to put it down. However, when a people cannot understand that territorial boundaries change with time and are neither sacred nor equal to the universal law of nature such as E=mc2 or F=ma, then the rest of the world is justified in seeing the rise of China as a menace to world peace.
When China is incapable of scrutinising its behaviours of the present with the same logic with which she accuses the West of the past, she can only demand but not command respect from the international community.
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To comment #160 -
"the 'contiguous' empire of China has been based on insidious yet perpetual annexation and assimilation of neighbours."
Let me ask you ... Do you think Japan had today's Japanese territory, when the Big Bang occurred? Do you think Vietnam was today's Vietnam at the Big Bang? How about the "contiguous" India? .....?
Which country wasn't formed by "insidious yet perpetual annexation and assimilation of neighbors" in the ancient time? Which one?
By the way, Japan today is still annexing DiaoYuTai Island, after successfully annexed and assimilated Okinawa.
Don't talk like you know everything. Give me a break, will you?
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To comment #160 -
Your comment : Message 54: Taiwanese are mostly Han Chinese and so should be re-united with China. (So should the Uighurs and Tibetans break free if they are not Han Chinese?)
I read Message 54 over and over again and did not see he/she argued "Taiwanese are mostly Han Chinese and so should be re-united with China ...". Where did you get that???
Today's so-called Taiwanese are in fact Han Chinese from the mainland. To the Taiwan aborigines, they should all go back to China.
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What about Tibet?
They are not even allowed to participate..
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To those Chinese who are obsessed about Taiwan being a part of China, please understand this:
Most Taiwanese regard themselves as Taiwanese, I know because I am Taiwanese. The fact that Taiwanese are ethnic Chinese is not important, Americans used to be English, the list goes on. Some Taiwanese feel they are Chinese in terms of culture, language, etc. However, the general view towards China is not positive. First of all, look at how many missiles are pointed towards Taiwan. The Chinese are sometimes regarded as an aggressive, untrustworthy and heartless mob. They would do anything to win, to gain money, without considering morals, or how others feel. Just look at Tibet, the recent milk scare, and the way they cover up things.
The positive aspects are that China is an emerging economy and ther are many opportunities for business. Basically, the reason why some Taiwanese are pro-China is because of 1. Business, 2. Culture, 3. Fear of China missiles.
Unless China changes its hardline (being aggressive, allowing no- dialogue) policies, it will never win the hearts of Taiwan.
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Antwerp1,
Well, in this case I would say if the majority China Town people choose to be independent and not part of the main body all over the world, what their host coutries would say?
Grow up please!
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lukaigirl,
No kidding. As far as I knew, Mao used his boat even across the Yangtze and defeated Kiang the other side, not mentioned the Taiwan Straight. The fact that US interferred is quite self understandable and there were hard evidences too (letters and publications later by US generals for example).
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To comment #164 -
[quote]Most Taiwanese regard themselves as Taiwanese, I know because I am Taiwanese[unquote]
There's no country called "Taiwan" in this world. Taiwanese means people who live in Taiwan. "I know", because I am a Taiwanese as well.
[quote]First of all, look at how many missiles are pointed towards Taiwan.[unquote]
Do you mean "pointing"? The missiles are not for harming average Taiwanese. I know that, because, again, I am a Taiwanese. Not for killing Lee Ding-hue, for sure. Missiles are not cheap.
[quote]The Chinese are sometimes regarded as an aggressive, untrustworthy and heartless mob. They would do anything to win, to gain money, without considering morals, or how others feel.[unquote]
The fact that Taiwanese are ethnic Chinese, with the same culture and language etc, how can Taiwanese be any better? You are insulting yourself and you don't even know it.
[quote]Just look at Tibet, the recent milk scare, and the way they cover up things.[unquote]
Tibet? What? And, There's no 'scare' of any kind in Taiwan? No 'cover up things' in Taiwan? No embezzlement and money laundering in Taiwan?
[quote]Basically, the reason why some Taiwanese are pro-China is because of 1. Business, 2. Culture, 3. Fear of China missiles.[unquote]
Who are those 'some Taiwanese'? and how do you know? Did they tell you that?
[quote]Unless China changes its hardline (being aggressive, allowing no- dialogue) policies, it will never win the hearts of Taiwan.[unquote]
I don't see any 'hardline policy' at all. If Taipei county or others declared 'independent' from Taiwan, what would be your policy?
BTW, I have deleted a lot of Taiwanese 'three-letter' words. Still not sure if this survive James' censorship.
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To comment 167:
You have written some very unconvincing arguments here.
First of all, you claim to be a Taiwanese and you don't feel any threat from China?? I doubt if you have lived in Taiwan at all. Have you ever read the papers? Don't you ever sense the atmosphere in Taiwan? Whether or not the missiles are shot, the "effect" is there, that's all it matters anyway. Speculation is a big part of today's world. Fact or not, secondary. The effect is there.
Secondly, you accused me of insulting myself, fine, if you want to think that way. My comments are basically based on feelings and observations, experiences, not hard evidence or lectures. Why do you think I come to a blog forum? I am not a university professor and I don't want to lecture anyone here. Just purely sharing my thoughts, this has value in itself. Again, speculation and the effect it has are a big part of today's world, think about the stock market for example.
Lastly, you can always argue a thing both ways, you can endlessly pick up something and expand on it however you like. If so, you are missing my point and my intention. For example, you can say, "how do you know...?", or "who have you talked to...?", blah, blah, blah. There is no limit. I can only tell you, "based on my experience, I have found out...". If you don't believe me, some others might, it doesn't matter.
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The reason Taiwan and China do not want to reunify is the CCP. Living in a modern, democratic, state for 10+ years, and changing to a authoritarian-run (not communist anymore) state is a change no-one wants to undergo.
When the CCP goes, Taiwan and China will have a better chance at reunification.
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James,
Comment# 168 made me laugh so hard that my $6000 denture fell off.
I am coming to Beijing to sue you/BBC in the court for my loss. I am not kidding.
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To 170,
Go on laughing, and go on with your suing.
Dentures? Ok, that totally explains all the emotional and illogical arguments you presented.
So it's senility that's dominating your thinking...interesting.
I never intend to pose myself as the righteous one, but at least I voiced my honest opinion. Compare this with your diverting of topics, avoiding of obvious public sentiments, and your being irrelevant.
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yes. I think the only one reason that make Taiwanese is the CCP. Political troubles!
But like Hong Kong, Taiwan might not like to unite with China. "One China": of course, until all the Taiwanese are Chinese, but not one People's Republic.
Today, we have Singapore. Most of Singaporeans consider China as Motherland, but they are Singaporean.
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James:
I have to agreed with your opening title of the blog; since, China was applauding the Taiwan warlord..
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