National sentiment
Here's one of the stronger comments posted on this blog...
"It doesn't matter how much you hate China and Chinese, we are destined to be stronger and stronger, we will disappoint you, I feel sorry for you again..." (fairreport)
And this is an email I received from someone in the UK after reading comments like the one above...
"One cannot help, upon reading such comments, perceiving that the Chinese feel an immense patriotism which we in the West have often tended to underestimate. Any critical reporting on the part of the foreign media is immediately met with charges of bias - and this, presumably, from fairly ordinary citizens. What I, and no doubt many other foreign observers, find hard to understand, is the source of all this national pride."
I want to try to answer this.
In some ways, Chinese national pride is easy to explain. The first thing you learn about the country is that China calls itself by the ancient name of "Zhong Guo" - or Middle Kingdom - a reference to the time when China was at the centre of the world. Many Chinese contributors have written on this blog of their pride in 5000 years of civilisation (for around a thousand years - c.500AD-c.1500AD - this country was the world's leading power.) China also gave the world inventions such as paper, the compass, gunpowder, and printing. So, there's a lot to be proud of.
When things are going well, this sense of national pride lives alongside a desire to make friends with the West. I know many people here who download western music onto their iPods, who complained bitterly when a local cable company made it too expensive to watch Premiership football, who learn English, and who want to go and study abroad. I've been to events where people politely ask if they can have their picture taken with me - because they want to show off the fact that they've met and made friends with a foreigner.
But, this national pride takes on a much sharper edge when China feels under attack from the West. This year, this sharper edge was sparked in by protests in Tibet in March and by disruptions to the Olympic torch relay a few weeks later.
Whenever China feels under attack, the country thinks back to a period that everyone is taught at school: the Century of Humiliation. This is an age from 1842-1949 in which China suffered successive, humiliating defeats to Western powers and to Japan. During this time, chunks of the Middle Kingdom were handed out as prizes to conquering nations. I would argue that if you get the Century of Humiliation, you get how China often sees the West.
These are some of the events of that every Chinese pupil is made to learn (students are tested on these facts throughout their school years.)
1) 1842 - Treaty of Nanjing
The Treaty that marks Britain's defeat of China in the First Opium War. Britain forces China to open up several ports to foreign trade, to allow Christians to come in to start missionary work, and to exempt foreigners from Chinese law. China also has to give up Hong Kong for Britain to use as a harbour. Over the next few decades the Treaty of Nanjing is followed by more than a dozen more treaties signed with other Western countries. Collectively they are known as the Unequal Treaties.
2) 1860 - Destruction of the Summer Palace
At the end of the Second Opium War, Britain and France destroy the Old Summer Palace in Beijing as a way of punishing the Emperor. This is seen one of the most potent symbols of China's humiliation.
3) Japanese Occupation 1931 - 1945
Japan invades Manchuria in 1931. The subsequent 14-year occupation includes the Nanjing Massacre in 1937 in which China says that more than 200,000 people are killed by the Japanese army.
The ordinary person in the West hardly learns any of this (even if they learn the facts, they're certainly not taught the Chinese perspective.)
This narrative of humiliation - a series of western tricks, massacres, and defeats designed to keep a once-great power down - often defines how China interprets the West's actions. It leads to an acute sensitivity and suspicion of the West's real motives...
"Please keep your hands of our motherland, because it is our own family problems. We would love to talk to you if you try to understand us a bit more in a fairly way. We like to make friends with you as we did never truly hated you, even you destroyed our country and cut our land in pieces many years ago (read the Chinese history in 1899 and during the 20's - 30's" (GoonerCow)
Some recent events as seen through the lens of the Century of Humiliation...
1) 1999 - Belgrade Embassy Bombing
US warplanes bomb the Chinese embassy in Belgrade - killing three Chinese diplomats. The US apologises and says the bombing is a tragic accident - its forces had been using out-of-date maps. But many in China don't believe the explanation. Thousands demonstrate outside the American Embassy in Beijing. Many here believe the US bombing was deliberate - another western attempt to keep China down.
2) Climate change
The West urges China to cut down its carbon emissions - as part of a worldwide attempt to stop global warming. But China sees this as an attempt to stop this country's development - a co-ordinated Western plot to keep China weak...
"Oh yes everything is on us, milk price gone up cause the Chinese started drinking milk; fiscal deficit, cause China's weak currency; soaring unemployment, cause Chinese cheap stuff; anything else?...Don't you need worry about China's going to skip the responsibilities. This world got to be a fair world, the new China is never to be anyone's' scapegoat." (ronnieji)
3) Dalai Lama & Tibet
Many in the West see Tibet's spiritual leader as a moral leader who preaches non-violence and campaigns only for better human rights for his people. But in China, the West's support of the Dalai Lama is seen as a conspiracy to support a violent secessionist who wants to achieve the long-standing western aim of dismembering China in order to keep it weak. China also argues that the West's romantic view of Tibet is false. Under the Dalai Lama, China says that Tibet was a brutal, feudal society. China says that Communist rule has brought development and better rights for poorer Tibetans.
4) Taiwan
This is the self-governing island off the coast of China - seen by China as an integral piece of the Middle Kingdom. In China, Taiwan's separation from the motherland is seen as the last, and greatest, symbol of China's historic losses. Much of China's sense of humiliation is built on the loss of territory. Therefore, getting land back - and keeping the land the country's already got - is vital. It's why Britain's handover of Hong Kong in 1997 was so important, it's also why so many people email this blog to insist that Tibet will always be a part of China. Some even argue that the Century of Humiliation won't fully be over until China regains Taiwan.
5) The Beijing Olympics
China looks forward to the event as a chance to prove to itself and to the world that it's ready to retake its rightful place on the world stage. But pro-Tibet campaigners disrupt the Olympic torch relay as it goes through London, Paris, and San Francisco. In the West this is seen as part a democratic right to protest. In China it's seen as part of a deliberate, coordinated attempt to sabotage the Beijing Olympics - because the West can't bear to see China take to the stage and resurrect itself as an important power...
"No matter Bush comes or not, Olympic will continue, business between China and American will continue, Tibetan's remain in the Chinese family will continue and so will the Communitist party's rule." (zickyyy)
When it comes to reporting on China (ie - what I do) the same suspicions arise ...
"BBC continues to publish distortion about China. Why don't you just add up all the emission by developed countries in the last century and then compared will all the emission by China. Then there will be no argument about who are the real contributors to the Global warming. Why BBC do not do that is baffling. Unless BBC has a hidden agenda to smeared China's good name." (TheMiddlePath)
"The reason why west media can dare to demonize China is that Chinese people are too nice when they face west." (YiXin921)
It's the job of a reporter to be critical - to investigate, to challenge, to shed light on the stories that a government doesn't want to tell. The BBC does this in every country - and gets accused of bias wherever it reports from (I know this, in particular, after spending more than five years reporting from the Middle East.) No one - including people in Britain - likes foreigners to criticise what their country does. The particular problem when it comes to China is this: when the western media reports on difficult subjects, many people here accuse us of being out to demonise and humiliate their country.
In many ways, then, Chinese national pride goes together with suspicion of the West's real motives. Each feeds the other.
Much of this is hard for the West to understand. Many in the West simply don't know much about China's history and genuinely don't feel they are trying to tear chunks out of the country and repeat what happened in the 19th Century. The West sees that China has the world's largest army, its own nuclear weapons, a UN Security Council veto, and ambitions to send a rocket to Mars - and finds it hard to understand why such a powerful country should feel so sensitive and so victimised.
Back, then, to the original question: what is the source of China's national pride?
It's a belief that China should be allowed to retake its proper place as a major world power. When China feels under attack, this pride turns into a frustration and anger that the West is still trying to hold it back and humiliate it.
Does that answer it?
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
Comments
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Great post- clearly a genuine effort made to present both sides of a debate.
I would just reiterate one of James' points- the criticism of the Chinese government on this blog is no different to criticism of many many other national governments on this website, including that of Britain. That is how the BBC sees its job- to criticise and question governments and leaders- and I agree with it.
So, Chinese readers and others, don't get too defensive. Governments should be criticised and questioned at all times and the BBC does it well.
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Having lived in China for a while, I find that for the most part the Chinese find it hard to believe that some "foreigners" or "westerners" discuss our own country's problems in the same way we do about the Chinese.
For example I openly say that Bush should be impeached, Guantanamo closed, the war in Irak should stop, lobbying made illegal etc. but for all the problems I see in American society I still respect the country and it's citizens as I know these actions do not represent the views of many and sometimes of most of its people.
I strongly believe that being able to see and come in contact with all kinds of information, being allowed to question it, and becoming aware of world issues is the best competitive advantage any person or nation can have (and has had all through history) In the end creativity trumps everything, and by creativity I don't mean figuring out ingenious ways of getting rich but truly creating something that further pushes the envelope and forces us to see things from a different perspective.
I always try to promote this among my friends here in China, and I believe many of them knowing I have no bad intentions seem to be more and more open to discussing some of these issues.
Totalitarianism is by design not able to accomplish anything else than forced discipline, Stalins regime collapsed, Mao's regime collapsed even if todays rulers claim to be their heirs (???).
I can only speak for myself, but whenever I bring up any of these issues I always do it with the intention of helping the Chinese becoming more effective in the world, so that when regulations are enforced and salaries go up they will be able to stay competitive.
NOT ALL OF US (AND I WOULD ARGUE MOST OF US) ARE NOT TRYING TO HARM CHINA WHEN DISCUSSIN THE HUGE PROBLEMS CONFRONTING SUCH A COMPLEX COUNTRY!
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You forgot to mention, like Chinese teachers, that the British burnt down the Summer Palace in retaliation for the torturing of a British journalist. Chinese locals also looted the park.
China is the world's last remaining empire and, like all empires, will eventually fall and collapse one day.
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I think that the pride that the Chineese have in their country is admirable and their reaction to critisim from the west is just the same as our reaction to critisim from Europe- 'Mind your own business this is our country'. This happens everywhere and China is no exception.
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"When China feels under attack, this pride turns into a frustration and anger that the West is still trying to hold it back and humiliate it."
It is true, wether you admit or not. No matter how long you have been a journalist, James, it your point of view and the company your worked for decide what you are saying. Politics is is complex, ordinary people can not know the essence of it, but affects by specific things (what the media say). People just know some aspect of the things that you want them know, but the whole. Media is a tool to strengthen the power of ruling the country.
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Well, James you got it pretty right! I speak as an American Chinese, born and raised in China and had accumulated 66 years of life's experience. I believe I am in a unique place to give my perspective. In my line of work, I have contact with young Chinese students studying for their advance degree in U.S. I have found that they are totally ignorant of their own history of the past fifty some years when China was closed to the outside world. They knew very little the details of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the recent Tiananmen Square massacre. When I touched on the recent event of Tiananmen Square, the student's face turned blank. When I asked if the student know anything about it, I got a sheepish shake of the head. I wondered if my question had struck a fear in the student's heart, or the student was simply confused. I prefer to think the fear factor is the explanation as the student did not pursue my question with questions of his own and had shown no curiosity of the event. These students had come from other parts of China and apparently had very little news of the event, which was heavily censored by the government. So, here is the setting in which these young Chinese grew up, a heavy dose of the past on humiliation of China by foreign powers and no news on China's own failures. China prefers to have the mindset of victims because it is a very powerful motivation for Chinese to want to improve their social, economic, and political status as equal of the West. The consequence is this show of nationalism by the young, educated Chinese. After over a century of turmoil in China, Chinese deserve to feel proud of their recent achievements, and to use the Olympics as a stage for their coming out party on the World stage. But, the troubling part of this is, unless China shakes off her victims mentality, Chinese will not be an equal to the West. It will remain defensive, unwilling to accept responsibility, over sensitive to criticism from the outside world and unwilling to cooperate to solve the World's urgent problems. This defensiveness ultimately will hamper China in its own development as a democracy and an open society. When one feels attacked as the only available reaction to criticism, one misses the chance for introspection and thus, change. Sadly, introspection is what young Chinese need to learn to be full a partner on World stage.
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The problem with those playing the victim is that they often turn into a bully... and I think that many, many people outside of China fear exactly that. I personally feel like the Chinese government lacks the finesse to deal with difficult, complex world issues and so falls back on the "we've been oppressed for so long, get off our backs!" excuse when something goes wrong. When it goes right, China Is the Greatest.
I hope that the Chinese realise that the past is the past and continually mining it for reasons to act as they do now is a bit immature.
Taiwan is gone and, without a massive war, will remain gone. Tibet is China's and will remain so for the future. In the meantime, there are real issues to be discussed and tackled. The environment, living standards, corruption in government and keeping their economy on track are all intertwined and are all of the utmost importance. If the Chinese get distracted by worrying about Taiwan or continually moan about how the rest of the world judges them (instead of taking the criticism and fixing their problems) ... they might find out that they're their own worst so-called enemies.
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Yes, well written post. It helps me understand things better, thanks.
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I had a long conversation with my Chinese friend on this very topic recently - your report is very accurate. Thanks so much for trying to educate us on the Chinese viewpoint!
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The history of Western countries' humiliation of China has to a huge extent compromised any of their criticism of the country. Be it climate change, be it human rights, you name it.
1. The Chinese just don't consider the Western countries are qualified to criticise China, due to their past records.
2. The Chinese simply dismiss the Western finger-pointing as they never believe the West has a higher moral ground, again due to their past record.
3. The Chinese are hugely proud of their history, and think they are a lot more sophisticated, hence would easily laugh at any Western criticism for naivety and simplism.
4. Unlike the Westerners, the Chinese would criticise internally but are hard to accept that from outside, part of its culture the West has found it difficult to understand. That's why the Taiwan and Tibet issues are offending the Chinese immensely. The criticism on China is not read as might have been intended but sheer assault and humiliation on the country. Sadly again, the Western media has not a clue.
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James, one thing you fail to miss is the role of state media. I guess you watch it very often in China. If u r under such overwhelming one sided report since you can read and understand, you just take for granted that the country is like that.
Another thing is that China has a population of 1.3 billion. One famous author said the country is composed of " silent majority". They r not represented by the "patriotics" that you mostly see.
The last thing, as a scientist, I would like to mention that your way of monitoring the PM10 is not reliable at all. You take the data once everyday only in the middle of the day. That's a serious mistake. At least 5 data per day is necessary, in different time of the day. Only the average of the daily value is valid.
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China is a prime example of how history is taught according to nationalist narratives comes to have such a strong hold on an entire nation. In addition to overly sensitive reactions to what is perceived as a Western conspiracy against them, it was a rude shock to see the venom in so many ordinary Chinese people during the anti-Japanese demonstrations in the past years.
As a Korean who has had the opportunity to talk with many Chinese (both mainland and overseas) and Japanese and whose family has lived in China, I feel that the current state of history education in the three East Asian nations will keep them from ever trusting or even really understanding each other. Students of each of these nations have an acute knowledge of humiliations suffered throughout their history, but their own conquests are glorified and the suffering inflicted on the victims downplayed if at all mentioned. Unfortunately, history has given all these nations much to be xenophobic and paranoid about.
While Koreans have never considered themselves the centre of civilization, they have their own history of humiliations to be reminded of, many of them involving vaguely Chinese aggressors. Many Koreans remember how China, even during their own period of humiliation in the late nineteenth century, briefly reduced Korea to a Chinese protectorate before being forced out by the Japanese.
Today, the number one issue for many Koreans with respect to China is China's claim that the ancient kingdom of Goguryeo (also romanized Koguryo), to Koreans an integral part of their history, was Chinese. A surprising number of Koreans see a conspiracy where China will claim Korea was always a rightful part of China (as they do with Tibet already) and take over the territory of North Korea should the state collapse. I've already talked to many Chinese who interpret the traditional East Asian tributary system as meaning that Korea was historically a Chinese subject.
Koreans are regularly treated to news of Chinese police officers assaulting Korean diplomats, the Chinese ambassador talking down to Koreans, regular diplomatic insults from the Chinese, and most recently a number of Chinese demonstrators at the Olympic torch relay in the middle of Seoul rioting and attacking Korean police officers. The slant is that China still considers itself the middle kingdom and looks down on Koreans as inferior subjects. I have to emphasize that I am not endorsing this view, merely relating how ordinary Koreans feel about the perceived Chinese conspiracy to humiliate and undermine the Korean nation. The Chinese of course are not aware of this viewpoint and don't even think to be careful about such misunderstandings.
I will not fault the Chinese for being proud, but they should show some consideration that their neighbours are just as proud and don't take to humiliation well. Sometimes I think the Chinese really do feel that their rightful place in the natural order is not just among the great nations, but above all the rest of them. Perhaps hearing the perspective of Koreans, who share similar faults regarding their own historical narrative of victimization, will spur at least some Chinese readers to examine their own perspectives critically.
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An excellent entry to this fine blog!
Nothing more needs to be said, though I'm sure something else will be said...
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I do not disagree with you that the "Century of Humiliation" may have a role to play in explaining the average Chinese's reactions of supposed "attacks" by the West on China.
But as a 3rd generation overseas Chinese who is well aware of the facts surrounding the "Century of Humiliation" but who has also spent his whole life immersed in the lifestyle and teachings of the West, Chinese pride and nationalism cannot be explained only from the point of view of the humiliatiing events you have highlighted above.
In fact, Chinese pride is not really nationalistic so much as it is cultural - given that the Chinese Diaspora which begun during the Century of Humiliation caused some 40 or more million ethnic Chinese (the far majority who are also intensely proud to call themselves Chinese) to adopt a foreign land as their own.
My take on the source of cultural pride:
Perhaps it is because Chinese (using this term henceforth to mean both mainland Chinese citizens and ethnic overseas Chinese) are acutely aware of the immense potential of our "people" - as witnessed in the multiple centuries in the distant past when China was the economic, cultural and technological superpower of the world. The fact that foreigners are quite oblivious to our achievements (consider asking the average on the street a list of 5 important Chinese inventions and most would probably struggle) adds to the sense that we are very much a "mis-understood" race of people. And with such sense comes suspicion, as the average Chinese is not really sure whether a criticism directed at them is warranted or simply the product of ignorance.
On the topic of Western media - I believe the following sums up the average Chinese view:
Whilst it may be true that the Chinese government exerts immense control over the press, Chinese people consider that perhaps the press exerts immense control over the governments in the West. And as the press is not really accountable - given the defense of "freedom of expression" - one wonders whether any Western media criticism is not again going to result in tangible actions being taken by Western powers against China?
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An excellent piece of article. However,
I would argue that much of the self defensiveness stems from the lack of confidence. This applies to nations as well as individuals. When one becomes more confident, one will be more tolerant towards critial ways. China (and CHinese people) can now handle critical views from oursides much more comfortably than they did before. With the continuous development of the country, I am sure it will be increasingly easier to take negatives views or different opinions.
Therefore I don't feel that the "frustration and anger" resulted from critical views has much to do with pride.
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east and west never meet ~~~
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James, my salute to the Chinese tutor behind you when you wrote this. If there's no such a tutor, you were pretending to be dumb previously. No offence. After all, it's a well written piece and you are starting to get it.
All events regarding China are multi-dimentional. There isn't a simple truth or false, good or bad. A jounalist's job is not only to be critic but most importantly, to stick to the truth as closely as possible. Otherwise, you'd better be political opposition.
There are genuinely massive ppl in the west truely think, without further hidden agenda, that Chinese govenment are despicable for it's gross violation of human rights on all counts.
There are also ultra-strong right wing / neocon forces out there genuinely taking advantage of each situation to keep China down.
There are tens of millions ultra-nationalistic mainland Chinese, who will be always against you whenver you say anothing bad about China, Chinese govenment or Chinese in general.
There are also massive amount of Chinese genuinely think that the west are right sometimes on human rights, but changes in China will take more time than overnight.
So, James, you are in the middle of all these forces. Just remember one thing: each time, you are fooling around with the single largest pool of the highest IQ people on the planet, who also happen to have profound cultural heritage. Most of the time, they see things right to the bone, with practical “end justifies means”mentality. I can imagine it's tough for ya.
Zimbabwe, Sudan and Iran - still three bombs on the Olympic road map. I wonder how these things will play out in the near future.
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Hope you're ready for another wave.
It is more humiliating for the invasive countries to take advantage of China in the past (drugging the country with Opium). I don't know how you managed to spin it to humiliation on the Chinese side. Several countries ganging up on one, and China 'losing', is not humiliating, and the reason why China itself wasn't taken over as a whole, is because the foreign countries didn't have enough power to do that. They settled for their 'treaties'.
You're also playing the national pride card. However, most Chinese are 'upset' because their word is counted for nothing. They are called 'brainwashed' and not listened to, and why? Because of all the anti-communist malarkey the past couple of decades over here. Wouldn't you be frustrated if everyone looks at you and automatically disapproves everything you say? Perhaps you can feel that now in China.
My Girlfriend is from China and she is always confronted by bigots trying to lecture her about Tibet and China, and automatically assumes that she doesn't like Tibetans or Tibet because of all the troubles faced by riots etc. Yes, you, and the rest of the media have the responsibility for unequivocal reporting, but if that does not happen, you do not face the thunder in the real world, as we are safe in the UK with our image. We are called hooligans because of football, fine, it is a stereotype, but the Chinese feel that they are ignored simply by xenophobic or discriminatory means. Not all Chinese follow the CPC line, and spout anti-West anti-Dalai lama anti-Taiwan independence sentiments, and remember, many people who do respond to you on this blog have a strong feeling towards this issue and will likely seem over 'nationalistic' to you.
So to put this in perspective:
The older generation whom lived through the revolution are not heard.
The younger generation are brainwashed
The intellectuals are government puppets
The government are corrupt
Overseas Chinese run by nationalism.
They are protecting their own word and truth as much as the integrity/image of their country.
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I know once I start to say anything bad about China. Loads of people will start to criticize me being a betrayer or something like that. We just can’t bear anyone saying anything bad about our country. This is very typical communism.
I think the source of the nation pride is from the government. This kind of patriotism happened in former soviet union. Looking at the education part first, as early as primary school, the government start to choose and train it is political members. If you are a good student, you will be rewarded as young pioneer, and it is a honour. You would feel disheartened if you were not. At least, in my generation, it was like that. Now, in university, many people try to join communist party, because that means you are a good student and will be in an advantageous position in terms of employment prospect, especially in state-owned companies. From history education perspective, the history we learnt is more or less modified. Well, I am sure every country is the same, including UK. There is not that much difference between governments in history education. However, media can play a very important role in shaping people’s perception. When I was in primary and high school, (that is an important period in a person’s life in establishing the judgement of what is good and bad) we were taken to cinema very often to see the movies about how Chinese communists fought with Japanese or other foreign countries. Chinese always won and we were proud of it. Our education emphasises on collectivism rather than individualism – which means country and communism should always come first, individual comes second. Can you see country and communism are always together? That make Chinese people think loving communism is loving country. They feel hard to separate country and government. This goes through from the basic education to higher education. That is the source of nation pride. Nation pride is not a bad thing, but proud of things stupidly can be very dangerous.
Last time when I travelled to India, I met lots of Tibetans. That changed my perception where I gained from school completely. From that time on, I started to doubt Chinese government. Majority of Tibetans are refugees in India. They are having a very hard life. They make little money. Lots of the money will have to give to Indian government for keeping them there. Why do they have hard lives? Do they no want to go back to Tibet and unite with families? Who wants to suffer? No one, not even a small insect! One of the guys in the shop was Tibetan. I thought they would hate Chinese. Instead, he told me he did not hate Chinese, he just hated Chinese government. Even Tibetans know Chinese government is different from Chinese people, but we don’t.
In terms of Taiwan, Yes, it was part of China and I am sure it will be. But why do we want it? why do you want it? As long as people have happy lives, is that not enough? Too much artificial politics have made our lives so complicated. Oh, this is non- related to the source of nation pride.
My background – living in UK for 6 years, was brought up and educated in a rural place in China. My parents are very nationalistic. They don’t use anything produced in Japan. However, I have my own thoughts and opinions.
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Really insightful. Valuable to both Chinese and British.
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There should be a Chinese translation of this article. Hope I can do it.
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Wow! James, you have hit the nail right on its head. Wonderfully said. Makes perfect sense. While the west needs to realize the Chinese victimization lens through which all events filter through, it is important for the Chinese to realize the risk of not being conscious of its existence that colors all their judgement. My hope is that wisdom will prevail and we will avoid another German-type nationalism.
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James:
Allow me a few nuiances on these issues.
1. These aren't simply things which Chinese pupils are "made" to learn in school. You make it sound so indoctrinated. They are facts, plain and simple. Any Beijing citizen can walk to Yuan MingYuan and see it for themselves. None if it is actually false. Did not the British force Chinese markets to open to poison the Chinese with opium so that British merchants may profit? Can you even imagine the idea, nowadays, of fighting not 1, not 2, but 3 wars in which the locals are forced to poison themselves?
2. Belgrade 1999. American use cutting edge technology and the latest innovations in weaponry ... but allegedly attempt to excuse themselves due to "out-dated maps." If you were Chinese, would you buy that story?
3. You forget the EP-3 incident in which a US spy plane collides with a Chinese fighter, breaks into Chinese airspace, and lands. The Chinese lose a pilot and yet Bush comes in, guns blazing, making demands about wanting the plane and the US personnel back. Can you imagine if a Chinese spy-plane off the coast of California did this and caused a US pilot to be lost?
4. Fact of the matter is, in the rush to Cold War, Japanese war-criminals have not been punished a fraction as much as German war-criminals for crimes against humanity and the Chinese people. Nanjing 1933 is but a blimp on the history of the world according to the West, if even that. Japan became a Cold-War bastion and a modern-day powerhouse due to US support and Atomic Bomb guilt while the rape of all China from 1933-1945 was conveniently swept under the rug.
James:
If you want to boil all this down to one sentence, sure, it's a matter of trust, a complete lack thereof throught-out history, and the fact that "once bitten twice shy" is a defense mechanism for anyone. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" -- The phrase that Bush botched -- is not the entirely of it, however.
China realizes, in order to move into the future, the world must work together, than Cold War sentiments must end, and that people must try to understand each other. To that extent, China is willing to give relations another go, and China has demonstrated that again and again.
However, what China, ANYONE, needs in a situation where you are attempting to make nice with people who have abused relations in the past, is the idea that the offending party, the West, should and must extend gestures of good faith, and apologetic-ness, in order for reconciliation to move forward. This, the West again and again refuses to do. We're not talking about kow-towing (as so many media commentators love to say ... NO, we shall not kow-tow to China, as if thats the catch phrase of the century). We're talking about, simply, approaching renewed relations without the air of superiority, the air of dictating matters.
Again and again I use this metaphor, and I think it apt. If we are to be nothing more than apes, then do not approach relations as Goodall, but as no more than apes yourselves. Before you can judge China, you must understand China. And far too many in the West, from the common man to the media to world leaders, simply find it too easy to judge and dictate to China, instead of trying to understand China and the Chinese.
If your friend has hurt you deeply in the past, but you 2 are trying to reconcile and be friends again, he/she does not get to come back into your life guns blazing, dictating things to you, telling you were you are wrong, how terrible your life and attitude is, regardless of the fact that, indeed, you are not perfect. It's THAT simple!
This is why, for many of us, the Olympics have been such a shame with regard to this Tibet issue. China Taiwan relations are better than ever, bravo! But as an opportunity for the West to better understand China, has an opportunity for a weary China to really open up to the rest of the world, for more and more Westerners to come to China, learn about China, as equals and not as superiors, the Olympics should have been a wonderful thing.
But as of now, it has been tainted by self-fish self-serving minority and separatist forces, which have used the media attention to launch their own agenda for their own ends, at a terrible cost. Simply, none of this is about Tibet. But because of Tibet, the more important story, the story which is to shape the course of history and mankind into the next century and beyond, as taken 1 step forward, but 2 steps backward -- the relationships between the biggest powers of East and West, the West and China.
To focus on Tibet and Tibet only with regard to the Olympics is to fight the battle without sight of the entire war. And this is a war for all mankind because if China and the West do not learn to get along and understand each other, the future shall be bleak for each and everyone of us. To focus on Tibet alone and to destroy the Olympics is to show 1.3 Billion people, via TV and video screens nation-wide, Western contempt for the Chinese people and nation.
This will further steel Chinese hearts. This will chill Chinese good-faith, and this will have Mothers through-out China telling their Children ... See how the lao-wai have tried to keep China down, and shame us as we try to open our doors to welcome them, and try to weaken our Country which has learned to become strong again. We've been fooled and tricked by them in the past, we've been humiliated by them in the past, we've tried to make nice today, but clearly, it is futile.
James, the newest generation of nationalists in China are the youth of today, which shall become the leaders of Tomorrow. The West HAD won them with iPods and cellphones and computers and video games ... but over Tibet and the Olympics, they shall be lost, and they shall remember their lessons and they shall see what is happening today and these millions will be the face of China into the future. Is that the face we all want to see? If it is, then, mark me, the West will have brought it upon themselves ... to the woe of all.
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RE: Sensitivity to Western Motives:
The West, via politics, has never once failed to demonstate a desire to look out for number one.
To reconciliate, I reiterate, gestures of good faith must be shown. But time and again, all Western actions have shown, not good faith motives, but self-serving ones. Time and again, Westerners say, but we've changed, we don't colonize anymore, the simply want to care about human rights. When the truth is, time in China functions not in that way at all, a few hundred years is but a drop in the bucket ... and a leopard, to the extent it can change its spots ... sure as heck can't change them that quickly.
Facts:
McCarthy-ism was in the US as late as 50 years ago when the US and allies fought a war pushing up to China's borders, with MacArthur pushing for movement into China proper and the use of Nukes.
The CIA has supported the Dalai Lama as late as the 1970's.
US carrier-groups and military bases continue to ring China in Japan and Korea, with US spy planes crashing into Chinese fighters and breaking Chinese airspace.
The rucus in the Sudan? Oil, plain and simple. Africa has always been the West's private looting ground ... how dare the Chinese come in and actually contract with the Africans in good faith? Chinese loans and infra-structure is what is building Africa up ... whereas the West refuses to give aid to Africa nations, lest their internal affairs be manipulated by Western desires, under the guise of human rights (translation: installation of West-friendly governments so that lob-sided deals can be made which enable the looting to begin)
China has never once waged a war of aggression outside Chinese soil. China has always looked internally first and foremost to her own affairs, without the need to meddle in the affairs of others. A fleet which discovered American before Columbus was burned to the ground, the popular book has shown us that. This is the perfect metaphor for the Chinese approach to the world, let us mind our own business, and you'll never have us meddling in yours. Live and let live.
The idea of colonialism, conquest, expansion, claiming ownership, property, rights to land, wealth, power ... these are all Western ideas. Here's my flag, I claim all that I see in property for my sovereign ... Can you even imagine a Chinese saying this???
To accuse the Chinese of modern day colonialism is the pot calling the kettle black of the basest sort. Who's military forces ring the world?
So -- to end -- Western motives. With the modern day war in Iraq, all this talk of the new race to shielding (so that parity can be upset of course, ushering in a new day of violence), and the blaming of others for the US crisis in fuel and food not to mention recession (Surely the notion that Americans consume too much CAN'T be the answer!) ... What else is China to think about Western Motives?
Look out for number one buddy, that's all that the West's ever done, that's how it's ever played "the game." Excuse China for finally wising up, and simply only doing the same now.
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Or sir, did you ever consider that historically, China, as the 'middle kingdom' as you say is made up of many different kingdoms. Tearing 'chunks' off it, which the west has done all these years and are still doing presently counters the concept of 'china' as a collective state of kingdoms. Taking apart one chunk defies the idea of why they collectively took them as one, no doubt it was to prevent war between the states. To take this apart and cause tensions between states such as Tibet would OBVIOUSLY cause 'national sentiment.'
Furthermore, I would like to point out to you that if you are not trying to smear china's name, the reporters at the BBC should be MUCH more sensitive about the issues in China Quotes such as "In March, Chinese authorities suppressed the biggest protests against Chinese rule in Tibet in two decades." in your 'protest kits for Aussie Athletes' articles is just DIABOLICAL-because when protestors try to burn down buildings, we shouldn't stop them at all!?
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Well James, thanks for the effort to understand us. but as a whole the world is biased. I believe that there are may Chinese understand English and read BBC everyday. How many people from the western know speak and read in Chinese? The main media stream in the world are from BBC, CNN, all are from so called Western democrat countries. The western always like to talk about the story of human rights in China. So what is human rights? people can speak, can vote? As a Chinese study and work in UK for more than years, I am amazed that the media seems can criticize anyone. However it does not work in China as I believe, we have 1.3B, we have to have tight control over anything which you think is non-human rights. Otherwise it will damage the stability of the society, and at that moment, there would be no human right at all.
From some level, Chinese are not as highly educated as the western. When the education level for the whole nation reach a certain level in China, we may talking about democrat. Meanwhile do the western really care about the human rights in the east?
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Hi James,
I think you've covered some points there that might explain the constant barrage of criticism you find in your comments (half the fun of reading your blogs on China is reading the comments!).
As an ethnic British Born Chinese however, I may help to fill you in on the rest. Part of the criticism you attract does seem to be fuelled somewhat due to incomplete reporting. You are always going to be under intense scrutiny from the Chinese readers as by reporting on them, you are giving them a view of their world from your eyes. If you get a single fact wrong, they will jump down your throat.
For example, reporting on the Chinese tennis player at Wimbledon you made pretty simple mistakes which a simple search of Wikipedia would have informed you otherwise. Your western view point of Tibet and of that reporting is pretty much to say. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with some of China's view points on Tibet, but I also disagree with the simplistic western view point of Tibet and the Dalai Lama as well (Hollywood and it's occupants have hardly ever served the Asian community well). After a succession of reports like this, it's hardly surprising that the Chinese readers feel that you may be biased and attacking them.
From the progression of you blogs, it seems that you're starting to come around to the fact that your blogs aren't being well received by the Chinese. I hope that you'll take the opportunity whilst in China to understand the Chinese better (than making defensive assumptions) and truly write from a factual unbiased (i.e. unwesternised) viewpoint.
P.s. It seems to me that if your blogs on the middle east were like your blogs on China then it doesn't surprise me that you received criticism there as well considering the nature of their issues.
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It's the same for every country I guess. Britain used to be the world's No1 and I believe all British are proud that they are British.
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James, are u trying (again) to make some sense by your "psych analysis" after being in China for... 1 year? Having seen your primary school science projects on Beijing air quality, it comes to no surprise that u r still defending your poor judegement and so-called journalist ethics. This is getting hilarious. I wonder how would you call yourself in 30 years when you look back what you are writing. They call it "SB" in Beijing.
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"When China feels under attack, this pride turns into a frustration and anger that the West is still trying to hold it back and humiliate it."
Because, on some levels, the West is trying to hold China back. It has always been the policy to prop up one country as a friendly regional power and use their influence to contain other countries to prevent any non-aligned power arising in the region.
When countries in a region start co-operating they generally tend to start questioning why they need to work so hard in the interests of western governments instead of their own people. South America is a classic example of what the West wants to avoid - independent central banks and monetary funds that aren't run in the interests of wealthy western elites.
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I feel the China's rise and fall all has sth to do with our national pride. One may think that it was the west who hold us back, but why were they able to do so 100 yrs ago? Was it because we were too indulgent in our wealth, too proud of ourselves, and forgot the rest of the world had already moved on? Our national pride to rise again as a great nation was used by Mao and his successors to rebuild the country, and now some of us still feel 'a bit' sensitive towards criticisms from the west coz we find it hard to trust them and we simply just dont want to make the same mistake again.
Is the west worth trusting? Well I trust ppl who post on this blog be them have the same opion as mine or not, coz I know they are acting out of their best intensions. But imagine being a political leader of your own country and you are acting on your own national interests but not China's, things arent that simple anymore. Issues like climate change and media censorship are not a matter of 'whether should we do it' but 'how should we do it'. I feel that many western leaders are simply asking China to takle these issues without considering the state of China (that we have millions of poor, uneducated ppl who are easily manipulatable) and proposing constructive solutions to actually help us impove the situation. Sure one can say that it is not their responsibility to provide actual solutions, then no wonder why Chinese think the west is trying to hold us back again. But yes I do feel our gov should be more open to criticism.
I notice ppl in western europe seem to dislike nationalism and are aware of this kind of emotion maybe because of it's association with rise of the Nazi regime? But patriotism and nationalism is very common in many Asian countries like China, Japen Korea etc. Culture difference from the west again? :D
phew~~~what a long comment...
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As to the question of "what is the source of Chinnese pride", well, it's quite simple but sometimes overlooked by westerners: family value.
Don't get me wrong, human rights are always important. But in the West, it seems that individual rights are always emphasized as the top priority. In China, on the contrary, family is always the first choice. This is why when some people accuse China this and that, it will trigger a wave of anger.
This may brings out a series of philosophical debats we do not want to have here. But the bottom line is, we must try to communicate and respect each other's value and principle. I, as a chinese, do not agree with some actions of out governments such as blocking access to Tibet after riots, but I also disagree with some of your media's behaviours such as accusing China of "brutally crackdown" without any direct evidence.
I won't say BBC or CNN has bias, but in fact they do have preconceptional thoughts and ideas. That's why they made such rookie mistakes--making statements without any proof to back up.
Personally, I think China has made many progressive steps to change its images, from government's joining WTO to more and more people going abroad to learn and share. But how much has the West done so far to understand China? If they are really willing to sit down and discuss somthing, I think something like "food crisis is partly because China has eating and drinking more" will not come out from sb as influential as Merkel again. If they can do that, then they will not miss such fact as China has 1.4 billion people but it manages to provide enough food to its people on its own.
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Hi James
Talking about the media and brainwashing.
As a Chinese having lived in the UK for over 15 years, I feel safe to compare the British and Chinese. The average British are so funny they think they see truth on TV, but the Chinese know they are watch propaganda. Big difference isn't it?
Who is more brainwashed?
I suggest you go to youtube and use the search word 'true face of the western media' to see the 5 min clip, and explain why much of the western 'main stream' media chose to intentionally lie on the Tibet roit if they are not set to demonise China?
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In response to commenter #28:
"It's the same for every country I guess. Britain used to be the world's No1 and I believe all British are proud that they are British."
You just prove the point James is trying to make. He is in no way suggesting that a country's being on top at some point in history does not deserve pride among its people. Its the sense of victimhood that differentiates the Chinese from the rest. By the way, I am not a British and neither am a westerner.
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Excellent post, just what was needed after the increasingly irate comments I've been reading recently...Though you'll never get a sympathetic word out of Nanium it seems.
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Thank you so much, James, for your relatively long posting today. You have made
a huge progress in understanding Chinese history and people. I am amazed, and
I do appreciate it very much.
All you said are accurate, except ... "...Under the Dalai Lama, China says that
Tibet was a brutal, feudal society. China says ...".
You have "China says" twice here, as if you don't believe Xizang was under the
brutal religious rule before the liberation. I am a bit surprised by that.
I am almost 60 years old. I am not a Chinese citizen. I have never for one day lived in
the Mainland. A lot of facts about Xizang I got it from writings by a British pioneer. I'd
like to suggest you go find out all the facts from British scholars (not propagandists),
and write something about it to the ordinary British citizen. That should help a lot. I sincerely
believe you can be a great journalist by contributing to the understanding between
China and the West, and to the world peace.
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problem with the BBC is that their news report is ALWAYS bias. They rarely if ever mentioned Tibet with its proper name Xizhang Province Autonomous Region of China, BBC kept on insisting as if it was an occupied country without stating Chinese soverignty over the region since the Sung Dynasty in the 13th century. Also fail to mention that Dalai Lama recieved aid from the CIA arming his supporters to split Xizhang from rest of China. Calling the racial riots in Xizhang a "protest" against human rights abuse. BBC always stated that Mainland China would invade Taiwan should the Island declare independent as if it was a unilateral move fueling an image of a hostile China but refuses to mention that Taiwan constitution also claim Mainland China as its own and likewise would do the same.
BBC also accuses China over arms sales to Sudan but refuse to name Western powers that sold arms to rebels. Also refuse to mention UK arms sales to Indonesia in breach of an arms embargo that was used in genocide against East Timorian. BBC also refuse to mention stolen Chinese national treasures kept in the British Museums that came from burning and looting of the Summer Palace. Britain and many Western powers aslo paid no compensation or apologise for its behaviour during its occupation of China in the latter half of the 19th and first half of the 20th century.
Do you call that bias because I do.
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To tclim38: post #37
"I am almost 60 years old. I am not a Chinese citizen. I have never for one day lived in the Mainland."
Incidentally, BBC keeps a record of all of our past postings. In a comment to a previous post about Queuing in China, you have claimed to be a Chinese and have spawned a lot of hatred against the Japanese while claiming that they stole your (Chinese) culture. Just wanted the readers of BBC know your true standpoint in case they thought that you are an unbiased observer to the topic at hand.
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I genuinely feel BBC is NOT fair and equal to all.
A good the example is Sudan.
BBC demonizes her president. BBC accuses Chinese trucks as “weapons of massacre”.
Surprisingly, perhaps, BBC forgets to report a crucial point:
the West has been persistently supplying weapons to the Christian rebels in Sudan.
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Chinese have always behaved like a teenager in the world community. They love to play as the victim. But you look at any part of the world, Chinnese business is way way away from any ethical principle. The recent expose of Sudan and Jimbabwe is not going to help them either. They are the second largest country in terms of territory in the world but still they are hell bent on snatching more from their neighbours. There is no neighbour of theirs which is happy with them.
All this animosity could noty not simply be brushed aside as jealosy. At SOME point in time they have to look within and be accountabl;e for what they are giving back
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Quote Laodan “You forgot to mention, like the Chinese teachers, that the British burnt down the Summer Palace in retaliation for the torturing of a British Journalist. Chinese locals also looted the park. China is the world’s last remaining empire and, like all empires, will eventually fall and collapse one day.”
Ashtanga-warrior, and you call THAT not trying to harm China when discussing the you-alleged “huge problem” confronting China.
Why should the Chinese trust you?! Do you think we are stupid?!
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What's the source of national pride?
To be honest, the pain we suffered from history is diminishing in Chinese young people. Although China has a lot of problems, violation of human rights or non-democratic system..., we are still proud of our country. Because we understand how difficult China can feed billions of people, how difficult China can get rid of that poor situation of Africa. We have been working hard, we totally depend on ourselves to build our own country. In the past, we even laughed at ourselves that we didn't dare to veto in Security Council, and always chose waiver. But now it changes a lot. We are still a developing country, but we are going for the stronger.
Yes, James, you are right, we need proper place at the stage of the world with the development of China
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Hi James,
Your post captures the essence of Chinese patriotism/ nationalism.
Edinburgh 2002, I thought you made some good points also. I believe that nationalism is encouraged by the CCP in order to give it more legitimacy and take attention away from its own mistakes, past and present.
What is therefore disappointing is that some in China are still given to blaming individuals personally for historical wrongs. Young Japanese get this quite a bit. Being from the UK myself, I did from time to time get asked questions like "what did you do in 1840". At its worst then, it can be described as crude, cheap nationalism fed by a persecution complex.
I reckon too many in the West look upon China as a replacement for the Soviet Union, a "big bad communist country in the eastern hemisphere". While knowledge of Soviet and former Eastern Bloc government practices and style certainly helps in decyphering broad CCP statements, the history that James has presented needs to be shared more with western audiences. It explains why many Chinese appear to leap to their government's defence on certain issues. This happens even if in general, the CCP and officials are privately disliked, or even hated.
Some Chinese might even agree with certain outside criticism, but feel the loss of face warrants a reponse defending the national position.
More often, the response "I'm not interested in politics" is given which could be taken a number of ways. The average citizen would rather ignore it as they have no influence on it and dwelling on that fact itself can be depressing. "It has nothing to do with me" is what others have said to me too.
Finally, there is "another" China beyond politics, which is well worth discovering. I hope, James, that your schedule allows you this pleasure once the Olympics are over.
To other readers: if you haven't been to China, start planning your trip!
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Great post James, it clears a lot of misunderstandings that westerners have always had about China. Most of it comes from ignorance- not stupidity, but a simple act of miscommunication.
I remember reading a childrens book once (Horrible Histories, a long time ago) about the Opium wars, in which the author admitted that he didn't have a clue about why the Chinese bought so much opium. I was angry at the time at this act of insensitivity, but later on realised why. The English at the time was trying to open up China to it's commodities- manufactured goods such as clothes, machines and weapons, but there was no demand in China. Chinese people thought they already had everything they needed. The only thing they didn't have was opium, which they bought in spades. From the Chinese perspective it was seen as a conspiracy by Westerners to poison the Chinese people into submission, but from Western perspectives the Chinese were seen as weak willed individuals who only bought opium because of addiction- after all, there were also many other better things Western nations offered for trade, such as machines and weapons, but the Chinese never seemed to be interested. So a simple case of supply and demand was misinterpreted on both sides, and the scars from that misunderstanding still fester to this day.
Of course there were Western individuals from that period who wanted to keep China down with the use of opium; and there were many Chinese who wanted to buy Western technology and modernise, but were frustrated by their compatriots still locked in the "China is great we have everything we need why import infernal white barbarian magic" kind of mentality. But they were few in number, and the vast majority of people just wanted to get on with their lives, on both sides, for better or for worse.
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I applaud Mr. Reynold's efforts to understand the difference in the perceptions of each other between China and the west, and to report objectively the issues involved.
As a US citizen of Chinese origin and having received a typical Chinese elementary school education plus higher education in the west, I believe I can see both sides of the China vs the world debate. I feel that there is much misunderstanding of each other between the two sides. The situation is not helped by typical press coverage in the mainstream US media which, in my opinion, tend to be superficial and biased. Mr. Reynolds is to be commended for his objectivity and his efforts to help each sides see the other's point of view.
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tommywang,
Terrible troll, will not read again. 1/10
All history of all nations is either stolen or inherited from others. I for one am quite fond of my Korean brothers, and the rich culture they have.
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That's right on, but there are more sources needed to be said or to be told.
As mentioned on Chinese humiliation, here's one more to add.
"No dogs or chinese allowed to enter", this was on signs outside many western owned establishments in China.
Now Chinese people want to go everywhere that is western.
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Check this out, the Chinese are always finding bias reporting in western news media.
A news story like, a home owner is now homeless because a road is being built on his land in York.
Will this story make the International news in the UK or around the western world?
No, but if this thing happens in China, it is big time front page news and an International story.
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I have to suspect that nanium and tommywang are foot soldiers of chinese communism. their arrogant denial of facts show how human beings can be fooled by cunning dictators
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tclim38 said:
'All you said are accurate, except ... "...Under the Dalai Lama, China says that
Tibet was a brutal, feudal society. China says ...".
You have "China says" twice here, as if you don't believe Xizang was under the
brutal religious rule before the liberation. I am a bit surprised by that.'
---
This is a good example of the type of attitude that some people take towards the BBC and explains to some extent why some think the BBC has an anti-China bias. Here, James put forward the Chinese point of view (which I would expect the Chinese readers of this site would be pleased about) and is neutral as to whether or not he endorses the view. He certainly didn't say: "China says this, but it's rubbish really."
tclim38 wasn't satisfied that James put forward the Chinese view, he wouldn't accept anything less than acceptance of the Chinese view as fact. So in order to be non-biased, in this poster's eyes, the BBC has to present the Chinese viewpoint as if it is fact, rather than presenting differing viewpoints and letting readers decide for themselves what's really the case.
I for one wouldn't like the BBC to adopt such an uncritical and sycophantic approach!
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There is nothing wrong about criticising China. But please criticise constructively.
Many of western reports on China lack historical facts and do not show China side of the arguement. Also it is a fact that most western news media sensationalised the news as this gets them more viewers and that makes money. Reporting facts on the other hand may seems troublesome and boring.
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Great analysis. But Western media had a history of using more serious tactics when it comes to China. Take Tibet for an example, BBC and many other mainstream media have used edited photos, and irrelevant photos to demonize China. Reports on brutality of Chinese police is demonstrated many times through the use of pictures of Nepalian police. One report in which BBC attempted to distort news is when a report used a photo of soldiers putting a person into a van. While the van is obviously an ambulance, the caption of the photo states "There is a heavy military presence in Lhasa".
Also, there are journalist styles that are used for China. You would see more quotes, even quotes of single words, in reports on Chinese officials. That is the same style used on speech of criminals. When ever a western media reports on China, words like "the communist state" are used. When is the last time you have seen "the democratic state" used for western nations? What's more, is that Chinese officials, Chinese government, media, and the people, are simply refered to as "the Chinese". When was the last time you have seen the source that is a American media refered to as "the Americans"?
There are unfair treatments to China, and I would think most western journalists know it. The west simply cannot accept what is different from themselves. Communism in China does not mean if you do something hinting a protest, you will get your head cut off. What western media has to do is to earn the respect of the Chinese people, and learn to understand things that they are not used to.
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What is the purpose of all what are being written in series of articles here by one BBC correspondent?
As for the subjects, it now really rambles here and there, picking up the things, which seemingly are elaborated to an extend, to hurt the Chinese people's feeling, who like any other people in the world, are proud of their nation.
It is hard to understand what he is up to.
Is this really a journalism?
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Excellent insight James..and such a lively discussion with all sorts of views.
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Western democracy advocate always focus only on the development of self determination and multi-party democracy/election and unlimited freedom without proper order and controls.
China on other hand look at the development of everthing together at a proper pace. That is the development of democracy, of freedom together with the development of law and order, poverty eradication, education reform, social political and econimic reform etc.
As people become more educated and wealty they will demands more freedom. But there must also be proper development of law and order to prevent social instability. Eg freedom of speech also allows you to incite racial and ethic hatred. Without proper controls in place that will led to social instability.
Around the world we can see how multiparty elections have create chaos. Eg Kenya and Mongolia. Also India feudal and caste system is still in place and there are numuerous voilent seperatist movements despite 60 years of multiparty elections.
Chinses can see all that. Why western democracy advocate cannot see these is totally bafflying unless there is a hidden agenda.
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>In some ways, Chinese national pride is easy to explain.
Great, so in the very beginning, you have assumed that all Chinese are simple-minded. I suppose you won't say that for English national pride, or Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French, German national pride... will you? Good start. For slightly a more detailed account, search "Chinese nationalism" in wikipedia.
>The first thing you learn about the country is that China calls itself by the ancient name of "Zhong Guo" - or Middle Kingdom - a reference to the time when China was at the centre of the world.
That's what they tell children in primary school. Anyone who has studied Chinese history in more detail, will know that Han Chinese culture is mixture of different cultures in the Stone ages, such as Yangshao culture from the Northwestern Xianxi province, longshan culture from the Northwestern Shandong province, Hemudu culture in the Eastern province of Jiejiang, and the list goes on. The people from these parts China interbred and share their customs and languages and formed what we now know as Han. The place where this blending of culture took place was aptly named as "Zhongyuan", the central plains. Other ethnic minorities in China share similar origins as Han in prehistoric times, but have not been integrated in the passage of time. By the Zhou dynasty (1122BC - 256BC), the term "Zhongguo" was used to describe the collection of feudal states under the Zhou monarch, relative to surrounding hostile political states: Beidi is the term for these states in the North, and Nanman, Dongyi, Xirong are the names for states in the South, East and West respectively.
Your simplistic account again shows that you have underestimated the complexity of the Chinese.
>Many Chinese contributors have written on this blog of their pride in 5000 years of civilisation (for around a thousand years - c.500AD-c.1500AD - this country was the world's leading power.)
Really? Let's continue:
>1) 1842 - Treaty of Nanjing
The Treaty that marks Britain's defeat of China in the First Opium War. Britain forces China to open up several ports to foreign trade, to allow Christians to come in to start missionary work, and to exempt foreigners from Chinese law. China also has to give up Hong Kong for Britain to use as a harbour. Over the next few decades the Treaty of Nanjing is followed by more than a dozen more treaties signed with other Western countries. Collectively they are known as the Unequal Treaties.
Nice try at comparing the results of the Treaty of Nanking to the Open Door Policy introduced by Deng Xiaoping. Not that any bit of it is untrue, but does anyone know why the First Opium War happened in the first place?
It's because the East India Company decides that they could save a lot of money by trading opium for Chinese tea, silk and porcelain rather than trading the Chinese with sliver, while the trade of opium was strictly prohibited in England, Ireland and Scotland. (For details, please search "Opium Wars" in Wikipedia) Result - a surge in the number of opium addicts and the Imperial government began what was the first anti-drugs campaign: The disposal of the opium imports by Lin Zexu, the Emperor's commissioner, by mixing it with lime and seawater, enraged the English traders and war was their answer. That's how we've got the word Opium in the name of the war.
Why are you deliberately hiding the details of this part of history that you believed was so crucial to your discussion about Chinese national pride? Is it because you don't want to expose the dark side of colonial expansionism which is so crucial to British national pride? Why can't you admit that this is a part of history that most British are not proud of like what Lord (Chris) Patten of Barnes, the last Governor of Hong Kong did and that there was a time when the British won the game and ruled the waves but didn't play fair?
Your accusation that Chinese children were made to learn these historical facts are ridiculous. What do you suppose the schoolteachers in Hong Kong to tell their students when they ask them to which Queen the Queens Road is dedicated to? It's just something they can't walk away and avoid.
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An interesting article as usual , James. Thank you.....meant to encourage us to think and debate ( or in the case of Chinese "centre-of-the-worldists" another opportunity to spin the Beijing clique's mindsets).
Reply #6 by democracy101 impressed me a lot----it was well-considered and most interesting to read: thank you, sir.
Personally, I believe the "century of humiliation" theory has little or no bearing on anything that impinges on China's "national feelings" today (unless it is ever needed to be used by the Communist Party for some particular argument----in which case, many of the population will also use the same argument !).
My own belief, knowing many Chinese outside China, as well as people in China, independent Tibet, and in Hong Kong... is that today's "national feelings" derive from the change in the "Communist" (now merely "authoritarian dictatorship") view of how to "run" China since the early 1990s.
It saw the fall of the Soviet system; it was scared witless by its own citizens seeking their own freedom in Tiananamen Square. So it devised the policy of "communism is still communism but now has nothing to do with communism"; instead it tries to copy the market economies of the Republic of China in Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and others.
The Beijing leaders definitely found a "winner" in that new idea. With a huge population, all "controlled" ( what free country could stop construction work and motor cars in a shoddy attempt to clean up a dirty city before an Olympic Games ??); and with many "forced labour" camps in Tibet and elsewhere .......the new system has worked very well indeed. The world is being flooded by China's cheap ( and mainly inferior) products, just as we were deluged with them in the 1960s-80s from Taiwan, and from South Korea in 1970s-90s.
Just as Taiwan and South Korea felt great pride in its achievements, the Chinese are now having similar feelings.
And it is fuelled as much as possible by the Beijing leaders as a way of clinging on to power : "we are all becoming prosperous and soon the world will be at our feet".
I believe the current Chinese feelings of national "pride" are really that new ; and it is being used and milked for all it is worth by the dictators. Many dictatorships in history have used devices for instilling "national pride" : many were brutal regimes, trying to keep down risk of any internal unrest.
They, with the new economic system, "binding " together Chinese in a sense of "we are doing well", "we will overtake the west and they are jealous", "don't trust foreigners, they wish to keep us down" etc etc etc.
The leadership have done well.
Their arrogance and feeling of supremacy are now being passed to an unknown number of Chinese.
But, just as the economic upsurges in the economies of several Asian nations, eg RoC (Taiwan) and South Korea......has not really advanced their
overall position in the world -----so will China find that its cheap goods policy will eventually come to an end, its economy will slow; and it will remain on the same plateau without rising any further. This is what the history of similar of similar economies (and they had the advantage of having deomocratic rule and free speech) teaches us.
Even now, as its economy booms, China's Gross National Income is $1,000 . That compares to GNI's in the West , Australia etc of $30,000-$40,000 ! It is difficult to see China even achieving the very good Gross National Income of RoC Taiwan and South Korea.
When the end of the "boom" arrives, the leadership will have to come up with a new strategy...or face once again the strong human demand for elections, freedom of speech, a free press, personal liberties : just as the cream of young Chinese inteligensia were seeking in the late 1980s.
Until then, we will continue to see the xenophobia, the arrogance and the fear that holds together the frail Chinese view of "national pride".
It is all summed up for me by a remark made in response to one of James' previous articles. Someone called "wonderfulchinese" told me to ask those demonstrators of 20 years ago what they think now ( and how wrong they felt). I am afraid that I could never do what wonderfulchinese wanted me to do : you see..........
so many of those brave young Chinese cannot be asked anything at all---they were massacred by tanks and cannot answer. Somehow , as I remember the film footage of that single student making a tank stop , turn and keep on turning ( one of the most memorable newsreels ever shown), I have a feeling that he would not answer in the way wonderfulchinese would wish.......
I find China a sad country, where a certain percentage of the population is being given a taste of economic "goodies" after years of stagnation; and when the economic "goodies" slow down and stop..........let us see what "national pride" really means ?
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Reynold, it seems that you've learned some chinese history and perspective since your first blog. I am happy for you.
I understand you have limited space, but if you are going to mention the Dalai Lama and a conspiracy of foreign gov'ts, you ought to include, a brief history of how the Indian gov't and American intelligence agencies helped him from the beginning to now (his separatist activities/the CIA funded, trained guerrilia warefare(state sponsored terrorism anyone?!)/how they help to fund his gov't in exile and proxy front organizations/ launch propaganda campiagn for him (radio free tibet) ) and the role the British played in trying to carveTibet from China that directly leads to the Indian-Chinese border dispute that is still unresolved even today.
Taiwan wouldn't be a problem and be united with the mainland if it wasn't for the Americans who did its best to make sure it is a separate territory. Now that it has been 60 years, unification is still not complete thanks to the Americans who are still selling weapons to Taiwan. Whose interests matter more to the Americans-- the military industrial complex or the fundemental interest of the Chinese civilization, you figure.
The threat to Chinese territorial integrity is real. The form and approach may look differently from what it was like 150, 100, or 60 years ago b/c China has become stronger but the threat remains the same if not greater today, just look at the China bashing headlines. Say what you will about the communists, and they do have problems, but the bottom line is that it is the communists who gave the Chinese their dignity back, not the nationalists who lost more territories under its watch to Japan and Russia and was powerless to prevent Mongolia from seceding w/ Soviet backing.
Freedom, human rights, democracy--all are meaningless when one doesn't have a country. The communists gave the Chinese people their country back--not your Brits, Soviets or Americans, and that is why I support them. I firmly believe only when China is strong and stable can it have the condition to develop and to improve on its path and in its own way and change in a fundamental way for the better. The only thing the Westerners want is chaos so that they can sell more newspapers and act like they're superior than everyone else. No wonder it doesn't fly with the Chinese people.
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Thanks James to read and quote my post:-)
First of all, I'd like to say I am not a fan of CCP, the current CCP government is far from perfect - I think the central government is good, local goverment is rabbish. I absolutely agree China has a lot to improve, and a lot to learn from the West, not necessary West style democracy, Japan style is good as well, at least give people the right to criticise and monitor all level of officials, and free press.
I don't hate the West, I have been living in London since 2002, I have house in London, my baby was born in London, I like almost all people around, I wish the West, especially UK the best, can recover from the on-going credit crisis, and people get out from stress, including myself as a financial worker in the City.
But I just had enough, every single news about China on BBC has been negative, every single news about China on newspaper has been negative. Is there any hinding agenda there?
James, do you agree the West media especailly BBC and CNN ALWAYS ONLY report on negative news about China? I can accept criticisms, but not use partial/selective facts and untrue comments to support your unfair criticisms. James, your reports are extremely partial, you don't need to agree on this...
Chinese are proud people, not for CCP, but for our history and our identity, we love our motherland, no matter where we live. China has deeply suffered from 1848 to new China set up by CCP - this is one of the reasons why CCP had support, for the first time in 200 years, no single foreign soldier could stand in Chinese soil.
In Chinese trandition(notfrom CCP, but from 2000 years ago), a united China is more important than everything else. You can see so many Chinese defended China when the West tried to interfere with Tibet, Taiwan, and Xinjing. From my point of view, China should get back the land which is 7 times bigger than Britain, occupid by Russia one day. Some Westerns naively thought we defended China is because we all have been brainwashed.
If you shout "CCP should be toppled" on street in Beijing, nobody(but police) will do anything to you, but you will be stoned if you shout "Indepent Tibet/Taiwan".
When you criticise China, use impartial facts to support it, use "CCP" or "CCP government" rather than China or Chinese, it will be easier to be accepted.
One thing I want to recrify, in Nanjing Massacre, more than 300,000 people killed by Japanese.
BTW, what's you email address, I'd liek to send you an email also :-) ?
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A few words on the events you listed there:
(1) 1999 - Belgrade Embassy Bombing , this is DEFINITELY calculated, may not be decided by US president but by military chiefs, they wanted to test whether normal Chinese have the determination to defend our country. James, do you believe US army used "out-of-date maps"?
(2) Climate change: China should do more on curbing popution, but should not sacrifice economic development, faster economic development to catch up the West is the most important thing at the moment, develop new technology rather than shut factories to curb pollution.
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Your basic understanding of the burgeoning Chinese nationalism resembles to a large extent to that of my own. As some already mentioned, you did a great job in capturing the vicissitudes of the China-West relations since the Century of Humiliation, which as many perceive is the primary raison d'etre of the renewed Chinese grievances vis-à-vis the West.
Although the Century of Humiliation explanation is necessary for understanding rising Chinese nationalism, which is highly susceptible to foreign(western) criticisms, it is perhaps not sufficient. Some of the cultural chasms between the East and West might also help explain the sometimes diametrically different Eastern and Western world views. China's continued emphasis on order and collective rights could be understood as a function of millennium-long and now rejuvenated Confucian emphasis on the importance of families, groups and hierarchies over individuals.
The Chinese high school where I studied used a textbook which incorporated some of the famous filial piety stories in Chinese history. One such story tells that a Chinese parent decided to kill and bury his own child in an attempt to take greater care of his aging mother, especially when famines struck. Heretical and disgusting they might be in Western eyes, stories like this one are continually told and passed on. Contemporary Chinese, of course, will not bury their child for taking greater care of the elderly, given that they are way more affluent than their ancestors were and that most of them only have one child; the subtle influence of these filial piety stories and other similar ones that uphold Confucian values, however, should not be disregarded.
Since the Han dynasty, China's rulers endorsed Confucianism as the country's state ideology for two millennium and depicted themselves as the "father emperor", to whom all subjects needed to obey unconditionally and willingly. When the "father emperor" was in jeopardy, his sons and daughters were expect to sacrifice their lives for the father. As of now, the "father emperors" were gone but are replaced by the state - the "mother". If the mother’s life (sovereignty and territorial integrity) is in danger, hundreds of millions of Chinese sons and daughters will be willing to sacrifice, regardless of whether the "mother" is capitalist, capitalist, and democratic or authoritarian. State unity and sovereignty, therefore, takes absolute precedence over individual rights and freedom.
This relationship, understandably, is not acceptable in the west and will be vehemently chastised and opposed. Western preoccupation with freedom, human rights, democracy...stems primarily from their understanding of the natural law, which is derived from certain Christian beliefs. For instance, John Locke argues that human beings are all God's properties - they do not have the right to take each other's life away as only God does. God is not a very popular figure in China yet and so neither the natural laws that are related to him (her?).
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Dear James
I am an oversea Chinese, living and working in England for the last 37 years.
Your comments are only partly correct. When I listen to the reports with regard to China from BBC, be it about Darfur, mining in Africa, Olympics torch relay, BBC effectively acted as an extension arm of Amnesty International. lobbyist for western governments. For example(I only mentioned one cos of limited space)the UN resolutions passed on Darfur, China was totally responsible for its weakened versions. Gosh! I never knew that China could actually boss USA, UK, France about. Tiannamen Square was often described as massacre. Even though it was true,( I do not think so)the students movement asked for it. They were given chances to back down. They refused. Zhou Ziyang, the prime minister at the time begged them with tears in the eyes, warned them about what were to come. Worse still, When Zhou was sacked, the succeeding Prime Minister Li Peng had a meeting with the student leader Wuerkaixi, himself an ethnic minority. He dressed himself in pyjama, wagging his fingers at the PM, while John Simpson , your chief foreign correspondent and his cohorts were confidently predicting the demise of PRC. That event if not dealt with harshly, it could very well be the end of PRC as predicted by the bunch of western journalists ,
The Olympics torch relay is another good example to mention. While the violence and disturbance of peace was perpetrated by the pro-Tibet campaigners, China got the blame. The language of abuse heaped upon her by all tv stations, radios, newspapers, political parties, celebrities were so unanimous, uniformed and intense that you would have thought that Hitler was orchestrating the ugly symphony. I do not understand why the West in general give the Dalai Lama such a good time while China was demonized and trampled upon. James, Could you tell me why? Was he a Saint? Has he got no past, no skeletons in the closet?
You do not have to know much about the history or Chinese sensitivities. You do have to look into mirror before you criticize and condemn how ugly China was in term of democracy and human right. The records, past and present of your nations' actions and behaviours were/are not exactly exemplary.
Chris Patten, the last British Governor of Hong Kong has some sound advice to the West: Forget the past, the time when the West dominated and bullied(my word) the world has long gone.
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Whatever the good intentions are, a white person commenting on a yellow perspective will never work as much as a white on black or black on white or yellow on black, etc.
Bias will always exist. Us and them.
The closest way to comment on the human race is by spiritual means since all peoples are supposedly God's children, but even then some people do not beleive in God.
So all this material analysis work being done by this article is just another reporter's ego and it's just analysis. A white man will never be yellow.
But all reporting is like this. Fruitless actions because life is really much simpler and, to coin the Beatles song, let it be.
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Dont forget the response of 50-60 millions chinese diaspora .As a british chinese who has lived and worked here for 30 years, my loyalty still lies with china. When china is under attack or humiliated , I feel that I am also affected .I am sure that this sentiment is also shared by most oversea chinese. This sense of patriotism/ loyalty is quite similar to the concept of 'ummah/brotherhood' of muslims all over the world.
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Whenever the words "the Chinese" or "The British" or "The American" or the "French", etc, are used, there is going to be bias.
So reporting will never to clear. It just creates sparks.
That is why the world seems to be in such a mess since reporters feed the media which feed the world with biased information. Without media, no-one would need to know about another country and people would just have peace and war in their own country.
History and the future is as it is, just a cycle of time. It is really simple.
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Wonderful post, James. I now feel that I understand China a lot more.
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To #17, Thanks for the post. I am glad to hear,
“There are also massive amount of Chinese genuinely think that the west are right sometimes on human rights, but changes in China will take more time than overnight.”
I am Chinese-American. I used to believe Human right organizations have high moral standard and are respectable institutions. When they criticized China I was behind them 100%. After resent event in Tibet and the disruption of the Olympic torch relay, I have learned more true about China from ordinary Chinese people on the internet than from the usual Western media on TV. Now, it is clear that many of the human right criticism of China is narrow minded and lack of depth and sometimes it is outright ridiculous especially those written by Research Without Borders. It is understandable that human development takes time. History shows too quick of a change can bring chaos or event war. I am glad the Chinese knows what they are doing, stands firm on their ground and brushes away those narrow minded criticisms. As I grow older, I realized western culture is often practical, direct, impatient and lack of depth; Eastern culture (through my family circle) is practical, not very direct, patient, and has depth. It is just simply different!
Chinese fighting back is not an easy fight when the West has much of the power and wealth. It is not just patriotic, it also shows courage, determination, and intellectual strength. Their action should keep us alert and aware of the challenges.
The West look at China and see “The end justifies the means”; Chinese see that they had to do some bad things for the long run (it is like a boss has to lay off a few good employees to keep the company healthy and competitive).
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A very thoughtful blog. There are two points that may interest your readers. Firsty the Chinese are a nation of historians. Any educated Chinese person will have a good graps of the country's history more than an average educated westerner will have of their own nation's history. This leads to the second point --- China's history poses a very large historical baggage. In her rush into the modern era, this baggage can be more than a handicap. During the Mao era the cultural revolution destroyed one generation by the systematic dismantling of the education system. Now in the period of economic and political resurgence China is seeking some ideology to replace Marx. Confucius has been resurrected. One can even see the present government in the form of the old imperial system minus the emperor who is replaced by the CPC politburo. The point is how does this system evolve into a modern one not based on a "top downwards" system. The national pride is essentially based on the teaching of history!
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I am glad to see your piece. Six years ago, by pure chance, I became good friends with a senior party official in China. I have visited the country twice and taught a course in a Chinese university. During the intervening years I have learned much about china. This column is a start in your efforts to understand and explain China. But you need to work harder at it.
I was in Rome recently. The experience reminded me of my belief that the Roman Empire was the most important empire that ever existed. Although some like to compare the Tang Dynasty with Rome, I think that Rome was greater. However, as I looked at the Forum in Rome I realized that there is no danger that the Roman Empire will be reborn. However, we all fear China because we realize that a new Tang Dynasty may be in the making in China. This fear results in bias against China in the western media. The New York Times, which I read every day, is one of the most biased against China of all the western media - even more biased than the BBC. I should say that I am a great admirer of the BBC
One thing that I am tired of hearing about is the "Tiananmen Square massacre." Now this was a terrible event. However, if the same events had happened in front of the White house, do you think the outcome would have been different? Remember Kent State. It is time to put Tiananmen Square behind us in our relations with PR China.
We need to understand that China is a country stretched over space and TIME. The great cities of Beijing and Shanghai in many was are as modern as London, New York or Tokyo. But 100s of millions of Chinese live lives similar to the those many of us lived during our middle ages. We need to understand this when we talk of China. The government of China, not matter what kind of government cannot change this situation over night.
I tell my party friends that I am not a Catholic, but that I admire the Pope. I tell them the same thing about the Party. I could never be a member, but in many way admire the ability of the party to manage a country stretched over such a great span of space and time.
One of the things that I have learned in my interactions with my friends in China is how similar to us they are. Because of this it is hard for us to understand them.
In conclusion I hope that you will work at understanding China and being fair to China in your comments. The current column suggest to me that you may be able to do it.
Charles Crawford
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During the last millennium; China was not ruled by the 'Han' Chinese most of the time. At the turn of the millennium to 1279; it was the Liao, Xia and Jin Dynasties which is not considered 'Chinese' during time. Then Genghis Khan and the Mongolian. Finally, the 'Han' Chinese regained control in 1368 which is the Ming Dynasty. Regretfully, it is one of the most corrupted regime in China's history. Then the Ching Dyyasty (Manchurians) obtained control (ironically, the first 4 emperors created the most prosper period in China's history). Then came the Western powers; Shanghai was chopped up in different concessions by the French, British and the Americans. Therefore, many Chinese feel more angry than proud towards their recent history. They always feel that they were bullied by the Westerners. They become very sensitive when it comes to National pride. To fuel it, current government propaganda do not give them a real insight in history but instill more hatred in a distorted manner; maybe that is the only way they can create some solidarity by giving the people a common enemies such as the Westerners and the Japanese.
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I think the Wests problems with China definately have to do with our perception of China more than China's perception of us.
Firstly, in Europe we need to recognise that China is a huge part of out colonial past. Our treatment of China was on a par with that of India and subcontinent. Yet we assign much more guilt to ourselves over our past in other parts of the world. Perhaps this is because China did not seek the kind of reparations other regions did, perhaps it is because in the time since China has made such a success of itself, perhaps it is because China become part of the communist block and became seen as enemy rather than potential ally after the second World War.
Secondly, we need to get our heads around the fact that communism is not a wrong way to run a country, its just ANOTHER way to run a country. In fact, in a country so large with such a massive population, could democracy really work? I for one feel that if China was a democracy right now, it would probably tear itself apart... or at least be a much less effective power than it is.
Yes communism is not perfect, but neither is the US/European style democracy so many detractors of China hold up as being perfect. The fact that so many communist states have failed, been taken advantage of by its leaders, and not served its people does not mean that it can't work. Our Western Cold War education and demonisation of Communism is clearly still colouring our view of China.
With regard to history, the Chinese have every right to feel aggrieved. They discovered and invented many of the most important advances in world history, and the west has done rather well out of those inventions, without every really acknowledging China's part in them. A countries present is always influenced by its past... America views itself historically as a crucible and leading light of democracy, and uses this past to justify its present actions. China's feelings of being a victim are justifiable, even more so because they generally go unacknowledged outside of China. (Anybody doubting this, ask a Japanese person about the rape of Nanjing; or the issue of Chinese and Korean women being forced to work as sex slaves for the Japanese army).
With the Taiwan issue... its interesting that many ordinary Taiwanese feel that closer ties with China would be a good thing. I personally feel that the biggest victory for China would be if they stopped stamping their feet about it and instead persuaded ordinary Taiwanese people that they would be better off joining China of their own free will.
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To the korean. Have a look of the world map. Are N/S koreans independent countries? Yes? Why do you compare your country to Tibet which is a part of China on that map? Chinese people simply want to secure our current border without 1/4 of our land torn from us. koreans are recognised by UN, people around the world that include Chinese people as independent countries. Where does your fear come from? From your media. Mind your own buisness with the north and we would mind our own.
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Actually, I think people in each country have national pride. American people do.They think they are the best people in the world.
Japanese people do.Canadian people do. I mean white Canadian. They exclude minorities in small town. HK does. I am not sure about British. but I am certain you guys do too whenever any people critise you guys. The key issue here is few people in the world have their own identity, and when interacting with people from the other culture, they will fix their identity with their country's name. For sure, no one like to be critised, because they do not have self awareness and they are not as mature as you do.
The reason conflicts caused is that some perception is rooted in people's mind when they were baby by text book written by local people. I dont blame on anyone, because we didnt mean to be educated in that way,and what is the real history, we didnt know either.
The other conflicts caused is that people usually are not aware of the society they live. The never observe their environment aroud them until they came back from the other society. Once you get used to the environemnt you live,for sure, you will not know what realy happens around you. change happen gradually, only those people from the other soceity can be aware that the society has been changed.
Well, I am certain there are some people in each society do not have nationalism, such as you. Those people care more about humanity rather than politics.
So I really hope people like you and me can say the things we reall see from our perspective rather than we imagined based on our assumption from the text book.
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To Democracy 101.
You know Tian An Men Massacre? And you want to educate young Chinese about it? I am 40 year old and have lived in sydney for my last 10 years. I have seen the western version about it and I saw the Chinese government's version. Most importantly I was a student participate it on the Tian An Men square. There were probably millions participate the protest on Chan An st and on the square. They come from all over China. Young Chinese need you to educate them about it? Do you know how do we feel about it? Our actions almost brought the nation a new round of turmoil. We almost derailed China's development. We were politically so immature that we were made use of by other political forces. Before you use it for your own arguement get a whole picture of it. Your age has not brought you any good understanding of it because you are very obviously detached from China and Chinese people.
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Only one question really: if the Chinese education about how great China is has been truly successful, why do so many Chinese young people yearn for a chance to study abroad?
And is it true that 60% of the Americans don't have passports because of the belief that they are living in the best country of the world? What's the use of a passport?
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This is an interesting blog, and for what it's worth, I applaud your effort to explain and understand Chinese people's patriotism.
I do feel, however, that I can clarify something for you here. For Chinese people, our national patriotism isn't aimed toward the current government (ie. The community party) per se. It is, in fact, a patriotism toward the fast that we are China. It is a national identity that far surpasses any political entity that is currently issuing agendas in China. We identify ourselves as Chinese, and we are proud of China, as opposed to the often noted "Communist" China.
Note also that I feel this blog invariably confirm a number of feelings that many Chinese have toward Western media. Namely, it's arrogance.
During the length of this post, and in the comments as well, I noticed that there is complete ignorance of the fact or consideration that perhaps western media is indeed in an concerted effort to portray China in a less than positive light.
I do not presume to say that I have evidence of this, but, in this age of "free speech", why is the possibility not even acknowledged? Instead, it is us who feel sensitive, it is the Chinese citizens world wide who are being defensive. One would imagine, that if close to 1 billion people around the world share the same belief, one might at least acknowledge there is the possibility of this being true. It is, as I've mentioned previously, pure arrogance on the part of the media to completely dismiss any possibility that it might be wrong.
If we are truly suppose to be critical to what we hear, why not present the views as saw by those on the other side? Why is it, that every arguement presented by Chinese people worldwide down played, or attributed to communist brainwashing, state media propaganda etc etc?
China isn't perfect. But we are trying. When was the last time someone acknowledged that?
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James, I think you underestimate many Chinese's intelligence. Obviously you want Chinese people believe that your role is only to criticise the government and nothing else. If that was the case then you would not be so one sided and refuse to see the facts. The first time you attracted my attention is when you asked 2-3 people questions on the street about the torch relay. Out of that 2-3 people one man actually knew about the problem and express his view about it. But, however, without any further investigation you drew a conclusion that the Chinese government will make sure Chinese people know nothing about it. I knew straightaway that you were lying. I jumped onto the phone and learned from my parents that the incidents had been broadcasted by CCTV. You have been to Tibet and you refuse to mention or acknowlege the simple facts such as brutal slavery under Dalai Lama's rule. Those former slave masters and high Lamas have lost their land, slaves, and serfs and their glorious high status. How can they be happy with today's reality? You never mention the violent nature of 3.14 riot and who is behind it. You fail to mention Tibet has been a CIA game and what role the US and India play in this Game. Such a complicated issue is turned into a Human rights issue by the western media used for the arguements for separists and swollowed by the wetern public. Thanks, James. You think the Chinese should trust you? Tell me James, Which war did not start with a media propoganda? You think Chinese should trust the west have the best intention to help China? You think we are all fools right?
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Great job, James, you spent some time on Chinese history. Good job as well, Spinoza, your comment is very good too.
I am a Chinese, ok, i completed all my education in China, except for the last two years of my university, i did that in New Zealand. Now I am working for a New Zealand Company. (wait, wait, wait, don't take me wrong, i came to new zealand and stay here because i want to try something new, i might go back to China someday, there is no better or worse thing in the statement above.)
Well, I know all the history facts you mentioned, James. and I love my country as well, but not because of those history facts. And not because i've been told too.
There might be some Chinese, when you ask them "why you love your country?" and they reply to you without a thinking:" because 5000 years ago, blah, blah, blah." But there are exceptions as well.
I love my country because i am from there, and the way i love my country is to find out how i can help my country to be a better one. In order to do that, i/ we Chinese people need to understand what we r doing good and what we need to improve.
maintain all the good things...and improve those that need to be improved.
Alright, to Chinese people:
Just as What Spinoza said, don't b too defensive, take Jame's advices and find out whether his ideas are right/wrong, if it is right, is it practible? If it is wrong, let James know, he does not know this place as well as we do, ok? We've been here for all our lives.
To James:
Don't be too defensive as well, man. I know the difficulty of your job, i will get pissed off if i saw the comments you quoted in your blog today. But hey, you've done well, you started learn Chinese history, you'll find lots more about China as time goes by. that'll be good for you to do a better job.i have a tiny little suggestion for you, next time you raise a point about China, if that is a critical one, remember to provide your solution to the problem as well. B constructive. I know you r trying to help China to become a better nation, is it?
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China and Tibet
The China and Tibet issue has always fascinated me, especially from a historical perspective. One must ask why the Chinese consider Tibet a part of China? Until the 13th century Tibet was in no way a part of China, and had in fact successfully briefly conquered the Chinese capital of Chang'an in 763. Tibet did not start to become part of the Chinese world until the Mongols incorporated Tibet into their empire in the 13th century. It was Kublai Khan who ultimately subjugated Tibet. Kublai however in an effort to better govern his Chinese subjects founded the Yuan dynasty, turning the Mongol empire into a Chinese empire in the eyes of most Chinese. It was a Mongol king who remade China, redrew maps, and laid the foundation for what we know today as China. In this regard, Tibet never was part of China, it was part of a foreign empire that subjugated both China and Tibet. For all his efforts to better govern his Chinese subject, Kublai Khan remained up to his death a traditional Mongol at heart. It is Ironic to me that Tibet came into the Chinese world during an era of foreign domination, and now it is believed that the movement to free Tibet is an attempt by foreign powers to dismember and dominate China.
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Asking why someone is proud of their country is akin to asking why you love your mother.
If you go to 'backwater' and tiny countries like Fiji, you'll still find that the Fijians/Koreans/Americans/Omani people alike take immense pride in the land of their birth, their heritage, the land that they rightfully love. Just like how people love their mothers, it is the most natural thing in the world. So I can only surmise that the question was born out of shocking arrogance. Sure I might not agree with all that my mother does (like beat up monks or support far flung dictators), but ask yourself how you react when other people criticize your mother. Chinese people have mothers too.
I think your analysis is apt, and the attempt is valiant. However like most journalism these days (about China or otherwise) it is not much beyond the shallow reactions of one man to a complex issue, the surface of which is barely being scratched.
Just a few of the highly relevant issues that paints the lack of understanding between the two sides of the China Question you did not address.
Chinese suspicion of the west goes well beyond ‘conspiracy theory’:
Take off your western hat for a moment and look at the world today. The west dominate global affairs, economy and culture. A fairly small (around 17%) percentage of the population. They consume by some estimates as much as 90% of the world’s resources, can win wars halfway around the globe, take up a majority on the security council, make up all but 2 of the G8.
Ask yourself how these nations came to the privileged seat they now enjoy. America, Britain, and France especially, I would argue, got there at least in part on the backs of their colonial history, the atrocities they committed against native peoples, and centuries of aggression. No nation has found more wars then these ones. The slave trade, the colonial scramble for Africa and subsequent apartheid, the Holocaust, the genocide of the entire native population of North America, the destruction of the entire Mezoamerican civilization, just a few examples of the utter moral bankruptcy upon which modern western prosperity is built.
I don’t think anyone can in all seriousness argue that the west has materially atoned for these sins. liberal guilt and lip service doesn’t make Africans full or give back Apache lands, or return to African Americans their stolen birthright, or satiate the righteous indignation felt by much of the developing world towards the preachy self-righteous attitude of the west. When Zheng He sailed to Africa he did not bring back slaves. When the PLA rolled into Lhasa it burned temples, but it didn’t incinerate the Tibetan population in concentration camps. China makes territorial claims to Taiwan, but not to the Isle of Man or Hawaii, can Britain say the same of the Falklands? Who should feel more pride? Or rather shame?
I think China doesn’t think the west is actively conspiring to undermine it as much as it thinks that the west has no moral weight to speak on such issues.
Clash of Modernism and Post-Modernism
“When you give a hungry man the choice between three rights and three sandwiches, he’ll take the sandwiches every time” ~ Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Post modernist world view pervades western thinking because the western world has advanced to a sufficient point of material prosperity to take real stock of issues beyond getting rich, issues like environmental protection, individual rights, and all those fuzzy self-actualization needs of the Mazlow order.
Is it really so hard to understand that in a country where the vast majority of people still struggle toward minimal comfort and financial security, where life is all about the modernist concerns of material comfort, that the man on the street could care less about the environment, or freedom of expression?
Am I saying that those things are incompatible? of course not. But however you spin in, whatever China is doing, it is for the large part WORKING sufficiently well to give everyone something to think about. Despite all the grave problems, there’s something to be said about not rocking this boat. Do I take 10% GDP with increasing income disparity and environmental collapse or what’s behind door number two (Russia)? The choice is easy if you have a family to feed.
Fundamental Cultural Incongruence
… to come when I have more time
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James, as an overseas Chinese who loves my country but has lived all my life in the West, I really appreciate your blogs and think you are doing a great job. Both China-lovers and China-haters have become spentrenched in their own views (stereotypes?) that often their arguments are purely emotional and illogical. So far, I think you have done well to tread carefully between the 2 sides, presenting a balanced and fair picture.
I think you've managed to present a reasonable account of why Chinese feel the way they do. However, there is still one key problem: you have only displayed one side of what I call the China-lover vs China-hater debate. You have tried to show those in the West that Chinese reaction to the West's actions may be due to the peculiar Chinese psychology.
The problem with this stance is that it places the 'blame' for the China-lover vs China-hater debate only on the Chinese. The reason for the distrust an ill-feeling between the sides is because Chinese are all a bit neurotic. Chinese are all super touchy and hysterical because of their history, and if they could all just calm down a bit they would see the 'Truth'. That's a bit arrogant, don't you think?
You see, this stance is based on the presumption that the views of the West are always the 'Truth'. The fact that Chinese don't agree means that they are unenlightened heathens and infidels who pray to false gods.
Now, I do agree that Chinese people are a little sensitive to foreign criticism because of the bruden of history. But please reflect on the fact that this does not mean they are wrong. Over-reaction to a malicious attack does not make the attack righteous or correct. An impassioned response by Chinese over the Embassy Bombing or the Tibet issue does not mean that the Chinese were wrong about the flimsy US excuses or the Dalai Lama.
If the Chinese do have a psychological predisposition to over-reaction in these matters, the average China-hater should also reflect on whether he/she has a pathological bias towards unreasonably dismissing Chinese views. Why are Chinese views on any matter, large or small, instantly belittled by the China-haters as wrong, ill-informed, or the mere result of 'communist propoganda'? Why is it constantly assumed that whenever Chinese disagree with the West's opinions that it is because Chinese have been brainwashed or 'misled' by the gorvenment?
James, I applaud your efforts with this blog. I know you get a lot of abuse from both sides. But if you want to really be fair, you should not only discuss the psychology of the Chinese. Perhaps you should also analyze the psyche of the China-hater. Why are so many in the West so ready to believe all the slander about China but none of the good stuff? Why do these radicals so desperately want to cast China as the Great Satan, and view everything said and done by Chinese as evil?
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As a Chinese, I think you have touched mostly on the issues you have experienced. This article has your objectivity which is good.
Somehow, I feel you miss on some relevant points that are implicit.
For example, we are talking about China and the West. It seems there is some sort of 'us' against 'them'. If you look at China, we don't consider ourselves as the enemies of anybody. The perception I get from reading this article leaves me an aftertaste of some enmity or at best, the west as an adversary. Is it the case?
Your touch of history is good to explain the sentiments of having been a victim in the past, but now we're recovering. Yes, the government feels annoyed by international comments about its human rights record and foreign policy. Remember, it's communism. They are the rulers but you have to admit they are not as 'lethal' and forceful as they were in the past - sign of some changes and transition. The way the country is governed is such that it is a system that people have got used to, and traditionalism perpetuates it.
Now the sensitive part is the role of CHina in the world. Ok, there is pollution, there are issues with Tibet and Taiwan, and Climate change and the Olympics. Every country has internal issues and it tries to deal with it. Why external observers think that CHina, as a communist country, is not doing any efforts to improve these, is because of the lack of democracy and the onus is on the government to change, should they wish. Had China been a democracy, would these be issues? Do you hear people complain about George W Bush sending troops to Irak/Afghanistan for slaughter, or do you get Gordon Brown getting some telling off of the poor record of the nHS costing people's lives through disservice?
The problem is the attention given to China and its government legislation, while the incumbents of power (UK, USA, France...etc) are suddenyl afraid of the new kid in town who might be more powerful? Remember, The USA invaded Vietnam and Irak, without valid reasons. China has not done anything of this scale and still gets the stick. The issue also lies with the fact that we are trying to build a honest trade (at times overlooking the ethical issues - eg Sudan), and want to be left in peace doing it. Yes, the Darfur issue - we are giving money to a government that is waging war. How about the Uk and France importing textile from Kurdistan, Afghanistan, products of child labour? This is also unethical, but there is this hypocrisy. They know where it came from but sometimes, the trade is too lucrative to close the eyes on it.
I think no country is perfect and CHina is not. We want to be accepted just like every other and we're not fighting or invading countries. We are trying to recover from the past (ok, you said it seemed we perceive the west did nothing to help us and instead humiliate us - maybe I'd say. We forgave yes.), but we are learning to do it the right way, and along the way, we're not doing it as perfectly as everyone else wants. Hey, nobody is perfect and learning contains elements of errors.
Finally, you might see that many Chinese are friendly in nature. Please separate the view of a government from its people. We respect our authority, good or bad, but this does not change our nature - peaceful we are, defensive when treated unfairly. There is a lot of fuss about what we do, but we're just doing the same as every growing country, and without invading other places or colonialising other countries to submit them to our rule.
By the way, China has not invented slavery. The west did.
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To Edinburgh2002. You can speak on your behalf but you do not speak on Chinese 's behalf.
The same thing Tibetans in exiles do not represent Tibetans in Tibet. For those who hated Chinese government for setting free their slaves and giving their land to slaves, be it. They are free to hate Chinese government forever and pass the hatred to next generations.
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#3 Laodan - strange that you mention thus - "China is the world's last remaining empire and, like all empires, will eventually fall and collapse one day."
So far, the Chinese empire has out-lasted every other empire in the world !!
Where are the Egyptians, the Romans, Alexander's Macedonian empire, the Persians, the Incas and Aztec, the various Indian empires ??
The British empire lasted less than 200 years. the Spanish lasted a little longer. The Russians rose in the middle of the 18th Century and died a spectacular death in 1912. The Soviet empire lasted barely 75 years. The American empire began after the Spanish-American war - Cuba, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Philippines - and died during the WW2.
The secret to the Chinese empire's longevity is that, regardless of the tribal languages and dialects spoken by the assorted Chinese peoples, they all consider themselves as peoples (plural intended) of one nation. The South Chinese are more culturally, linguistically and physically distinct from the North Chinese than Russians are from the British !! And yet they are all "Han" people(s) !!
As added food for thought, there is the "hidden empire" - the tens of millions of "foreign Chinese", whose economic strength, knowledge and wherewithal is driving China's current economic boom !! Yet more Han people !! Professor An Wang of Wang Computers and Jerry Yang of Yahoo are just the more public examples. And then there's Bruce Lee and Lucy Liu, of course !!
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All the comments here are true. I would like to add it's also to have do with cultural differences and policy.
1) China has non-involvement foreign policy, meaning they don't interfere with foreign country's internal business and they seldom point finger picking at other countries unless if there's direct conflict with China. So they expected to be treated the same way.
2) The Chinese believe the major news agencies especially those that represent a country or the best of a country should take accuracy of their news reporting and sources seriously. Misinformation should be edit out. (One of the good thing about a control media.) Credibility is everything. Because they see BBC represent Britain as well as the best high quality new agency, so the Chinese expect James should hold high standard for accuracy in his reporting. They are following James's China report and find that his report often sloppy even not true. For example there is this piece of sloppy reporting on James part about the Olympic torch saga:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBuAau9VFA
I believe they upset over it.
To be fair, I think yes the Chinese are too defensive while they feel the Western medias are too offensive.
May be there are simply just too much negativity pouring over their heads?
It's like a person had done nothing right before now finally doing something better, even right. Yet he still get the slight. It's frustrating.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If you want to escape critiscem of bias then you need to produce far more context and background before you launch into your main point.
Changsha is not Nottingham or Sheffield or other familiar UK cities. Most UK residents do not know, or understand ordinary daily life in China and therefore cannot provide the natural balance in reading such articles.
You need to provide that balance!
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Chinese tend to think that the West is hypocritical. Sharing this opinion, I may note they are far from perfect either. For example, they occupied a part of India, tried to occupy the north part of Vietnam, repress other nations on the West of China, etc. Frankly speaking, I do not know who is worse.
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Good post :)
I am Chinese, and I feel that our national pride is our greatest strength and weakness. Chinese people hate critisism and loves praise.
Every country has had problematic pasts, but China's pride comes from:
- Continued education from an early age about the importance of patriotism
- Long history filled with glory
Unfortunately, constant attention on how great we should be, hinders us in thinking about the reality logically and from alternative perspectives.
Chinese people are aware of this weakness, but often national pride and emotions overwrite this.
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Talking about who understand who. Just look the level of English from Chinese. Can you imagine we have a discussion in Chinese. Are there any western can follow? The fact is most Chinese probably know more about western history and culture than western themselves. But western dont have a clue of Chinese history and culture. To understand others culture, first to understand their language. The fact we can have this discussion here means Chinese is more open than westerns.
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@ 81 Scimmia Rorest
In response to your question:
Chinese know what's the best for ourselves : the best education is the combination of the East and the West. US is excel in post-graduate degrees. That's why many Chinese are going to US for that. However, Chinese Junior High and High school education is absolutely superior, especially in science-related subjects. I am seriously considering sending my kids to mainland China for that.
Indeed. You are right that America is the best country, overall speaking, in the world, for the time being. And indeed there is no use of passports for Americans. Even in case of invasions, you guys can just confistigate the host country customs and let troops pouring in.
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"81. At 03:09am on 17 Jul 2008, ScimmiaForest wrote:
Only one question really: if the Chinese education about how great China is has been truly successful, why do so many Chinese young people yearn for a chance to study abroad?
And is it true that 60% of the Americans don't have passports because of the belief that they are living in the best country of the world? What's the use of a passport?"
1. Because the Chinese universities are full and it's easier to get into university abroad? Because the students long to see the world?
2. Because Americans take no interest in the rest of the world that they have no idea what's out there? Because the majority can't afford to fly abroad?
You can take random facts and make them mean what you want, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense. One of the greatest mistakes of China in my opinion was when it closed its borders to the outside world, stunting its progress. To promote this as a good thing beggars belief.
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A very interesting one! It is clear that to get a victory you need to well understand the opposite
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to post 85
Why do you claim that mongols can't be also chinese? Sure, they are not han, but they are still chinese.
Chinese is a nationality and ofcourse a collection of different native ethinic groups. I am sure that all the mongols chinese out there will be offended by your presumption that mongols can't be chinese. In fact there is a large number or mongol chinese out there (they even have there own autonomous region, and its about the same size as outer mongolia). In fact the chinese ambassador to britain ( Fu Ying) is an ethinic mongol herself.
I am sure people would be offended if you went onto the streets and said that asians can't be british or blacks can't be british, so the same rules apply here.
This means that the mongol empire is a chinese empire and the following ming dynasty has the territorial claim over the territories of the preceeding empire.
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To typingfromwork. You present the logic of a drugdealer very well. I hope you are one out of a million in whereever that country is. Britain exported opium and used its war machine to force China to open her door is only miscommunication? That is the worst crime a country can commit in mankind history.
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To #44. China acts like a teenager? Chinese business are not ethical? No neighbour liks China. Wow, you are a true China hater acting and spreading hatred like a teenager. I wonder how did your hatred filled comments get past the moderator?
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I am a 50 year old third generation overseas Chinese from Cambodia. The stories of how my grandfather was forced to leave his homeland during the turmos have always touched my heart, I have always tried to understand the events occurred in China such as Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution from that perspective.
My family suffered tremendously under Pol Pot’s communist regime (over two million people perished), I lost 22 members of my family. I still feel very bitter about what happenned 20 years ago, but looking back on how China and Cambodia (the royal family was overthrown by a CIA coup) were treated by the western power, I can understand the desire of people want their countries to be treated among equals.
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That was a very good article. One glaring oversight.
How many here know about about the Opium Wars?
Are we taught that opium was forced on the Chinese by the British (along with their missionaries)?
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Hi James, it is very good topic to discuss. you must be do a bit of study before post this article.
Maybe you can post another article such as what is the chinese pride souce now or in the future etc.
anyway, that is a good article
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Post 63:
"so many of those brave young Chinese cannot be asked anything at all---they were massacred by tanks and cannot answer. Somehow , as I remember the film footage of that single student making a tank stop , turn and keep on turning ( one of the most memorable newsreels ever shown), I have a feeling that he would not answer in the way wonderfulchinese would wish......."
Most of the students left... go do some reading.
The 'tank man's' identity was never known, so I don't know where you got this from.
Looks like you have suffered from another bout of misinformation.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2300254722104314948
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James,
This is definitely one of the most successful articles in your blog, in the sense that it generated such open and indepth discussion. All the posts above are fascinating to read.
I just wanted to add a few of my own thoughts:
1. National pride is a good thing, and Chinese should not be critisized for loving or feeling proud of their country.
2. I feel slightly uneasy with respect to your detailed analysis of the source of the national pride - it is as if this pride needs to be justified, in front of westeners. To me, why I love China is because it's part of my own identity. Put it this way, a Chinese who does not know any of the facts that you listed out as a source of national pride would still love China, simply because he is Chinese. That's why during the anti-Japanese war, even farmers who had received no formal educcation at all, even prisoners who were actually being punished by the then Chinese government, were willing to fight to their death for this country. Simply because it is their country - not because this country has achieved this and that which made them feel good.
3. Why I said 1 and 2 above is because I feel that some westeners think that Chinese should NOT feel proud of their country. I can see this sentiment in some of the commentors here, and in some foreigners (including my colleagues, and even friends) around me. This is very offensive to Chinese.
4. Even though we love our country and are proud of being a Chinese, we know very clearly that China has many many problems and seriously lags behind many countries in many aspects. This also answers the question raised by ScimmiaForest in post 81: young Chinese yearn for a chance of studying abroad because they know there is much to learn, and they want to know the international world better. You love your motherland not because it is rich, but because it is yor motherland.
5 In China nobody believes in the central controlled media. CCTV is deemed the symbol of propaganda and is mocked by ordinary Chinese everyday. Everybody watches it not because it is regarded as a reliable source of information but because it is important to know what is politically correct.
However western media (including BBC, CNN) has lost much of its credibility too, because of the overwhelmingly negative report about China, particularly after the Olympic torch relay and the recent Tibet incident. About 15 years ago Chinese people actually believed in western media 100%. Back then colleague students would listen to BBC, CNN, VOA for truthful reports (and to improve their English). But look at today - a colleague graduate actually founded an entire anti-CNN website to expose the distorted report by western media!
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I have got to echo cfleung's post 62 and some points made in my previous posts 23 and 24:
The problem is that the entire approach is parochial and fairly condescending. I don't know if this is simply a British/Western trait that's subconscious even ... but as a reporter reporting internationally, it's time to become quite conscious of it.
Nothing about China is easy to explain, least of all her nationalism. In emphasizing the primary school-indoctrination of events, and not emphasizing the true darker side of the history, the reporting inevitably lends itself to a slant which is negative to China and not-condemning enough of Western history.
There would be no study of the opium wars if it weren't for the FACT that, out of shear profit motive, the Chinese were forced to open trade FOR poison! There would be no study of 1933-1945 if Japan had not killed over 20 Million in that period, out of shear lust for conquest and power. There would be no study of the boxer rebellion, if nations from all over the world had not, in fact, tried to colonize and divide up like so many pieces of dragon-meat pie.
Does Western history emphasize these thigs? Do most Westerners really even know about these things? No, James, I believe not. They know about D-Day and The Somme, and the 4th of July. And now, thanks to the BBC, they know about how certain notions are drilled into the heads of Chinese Children in primary school ... without any mention of the underlying truth ... which gives the allegation an inevitable air of devious brain-washing to it. Your article is a good start, but it merely and incompletely scratches the surface.
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when i was still in china the history books didn't have much coverage on cultural revolution and 1989. i still knew what happened from my parents, and i believe most people know what happened although it's not written in the pages. the public view, however, of the two events are very different. most people view the cultural revolution as mao messed up, but they do NOT view 1989 as a fault on the government's part.
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Only one question really: if the Chinese education about how great China is has been truly successful, why do so many Chinese young people yearn for a chance to study abroad?
And is it true that 60% of the Americans don't have passports because of the belief that they are living in the best country of the world? What's the use of a passport?
---- ScimmiaForest
Do you know how many studetns in chinese university? 30 million, half of UK population are university studetns. You probably see many chinese studetns here, but its a very very small percentage of total university students, even less than 1%. If you count passport, 95% of Chinese dont hold chinese passport.
For education, I dont need to say anything, I studied university degree in UK and the mathmatic they taught is about junior school level in China. One hour exam paper took me 10 mins to finish. A friend of mine never took a single mathmatic lesson and he is the number one in the class. I easliy got a first class in the University without much study and English is my second language.
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James,
This is a piece well-done. You have some insights here. However, for younger generations in China, we no longer dwell on the past of humilation. We live for the present and the future. We understand more of the problems within our country and our eyes no long look across the oceans to the west to seek answers and solutions to solve our problems. We no longer look to the west with awe and admiration like we used to in the 1980s. That era of innocence and political idealism, including 1989, is gone. This does not mean we are closing our doors. No. We become more open-minded and sophisticated, and no longer accepts whatever is "fed" to us. This includes our attitude towards our own government.
James, you have travelled to the inland, far remote and poor places in China. You know that China is neither super rich nor powerful. We are still in the stage of development. We have so many issues and problems to tackle.
We are indeed trying to establish a postion in this fast changing world.
This is a good discussion. Thank you for your efforts, James.
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One more thing, James,
Next time when you show a picture of China, please do not pick this one because it gives a stereotyped and biased impression of China. We no longer identify ourselves with Mao's mentality.
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Congratulations on #6 which is an informative and well-rounded post.
I was surprised to read in post #74: "Firsty (sic) the Chinese are a nation of historians. Any educated Chinese person will have a good graps (sic) of the country's history more than an average educated westerner will have of their own nation's history."
From my personal experience, the Chinese people I know have a fairly limited knowledge of their own history, often blaming a childhood education full of facts and figures but lacking stimulation for their continuing lack of interest in their own history.
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Answer to rickshawesquire:
Asking why someone is proud of their country is akin to asking why you love your mother.
Mother and country are two different entities. Mother is the object of our psychological and emotional bond besides genetic linkage, from where we derive our protection to survive, stimulation in order to develop language - the skill of what makes us human, and emotional attachment that makes us sociable as a member of human society. We love and depend on our mothers from infancy and the bond is deep. Country is an identity which changes and shifts over time. Swiss, Belgian, Basques, Shiites, Sunni’s, and many tribal groups in Africa have strong identities as members of an ethnic group first and nationality last. The United States has very strong national identity because of its ethnic, racial diversity of the population. That is what holds the nation together. Americans subscribe to the same set of ideals, values, of freedom of speech, religion and limited government. Americans are able to love themselves as a person with cultural ties to a certain ethnic group, and love America for its ideals, its democracy and its vibrancy. As mature persons, we develop the insights with the ability to view both country and mother as flawed beings like ourselves (criticisms in this case), and without the need to reject either. We can develop a mutually open dialogue about each other so we can have an honest, mutually beneficial relationship. The dialogue/criticisms between nation and citizens makes for a better nation and dialogue/criticisms between nations makes for a better world - China and the West.
Chinese suspicious of the west is caused by Europe’s domination over the world during their colonial times. Yes, Europe had committed many atrocities, robbery and pillaging of treasures during their conquest of native lands. And the present conflicts in the Middle East and Africa have their origin from Colonial rule. Shame on them! But, they also brought along their technologies – modern medicine, machines, science, math, common law, governmental administration. Would it be better for some of these native people to return to their hand and mouth existence, constant war fare, disease and high mortality? Would you not acknowledge that the world had also benefited from the spread of European influence? Let’s give it a balanced view of world history. I would recommend that you read Gun, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. Europe does not have monopoly in conquests and pillage. That was the way it was, China included.
Oh, yes! Slavery was not invented by Europeans alone. Emperor Huang-de built the Great Wall using slaves.
Sandwiches vs. human rights and other modern issues:
A folk lore I heard when I was young growing up in China: Confuscious was on the road preaching his wisdom to the Chinese people, whereby he saw a very emaciated old man sitting by the road side. Confuscious signaled his follower to ask if the man would like to have some of their food. Soon after, the follower returned and looking puzzled repeated his message to the man to Confuscious, “Pity on you, here is some bread for you.” But, the old man looked up and replied softly, “No sir, I do not want your pity.” “Why did he refuse my charity even though he must be starving?” Confuscious, “His dignity is more important than his physical pain”. Human rights and food are each and the same, dignity and food are equally so. Ghandi who went on hunger strike fighting for dignity of his people!
Environmental degradation is a modern issue. It affects all living things on earth, with human survival as the ultimate threat. There is no time to blame the West as the origin of present day climate change. Chinese and people from poor countries will be the first to succumb to lung disease, and cancer if nothing is done soon by all nations.
I would not use cultural incongruence as the one swipe stroke to excuse responsibility of any nation in the urgent need to solve the world’s problem. We share this little blue planet where we all call home and the only home. Your assertion of cultural incongruence is just cop-out far flung extreme liberalism.
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James,
Frankly, I find the question, which you received in the email and since posted here on this blog, a bit condescending. The questioner seemed amazed/shocked that *even* the Chinese people are proud of their country as if he/she felt there were no reasons for such pride. Well, I have got news for him/her: sure, China is not Rivendell and the Chinese are not elves, but we sure love our country. Joking aside, I seriously think everybody on this planet can be justifiably proud for his/her own country, whether it is rich or poor; democratic or undemocratic.
It is of course another issue if the questioner was referring to some overt and often over-heated patriotic emotions displayed on the blog sphere. I think those are only temporary. I believe the time will come when most Chinese are confident enough to rationally voice their opinions as responsible world citizens.
For me, there are more personal reasons to love China. It does not have to do with the heavy historical references to incidents of pride or humiliation, like the ones you listed in your blog. I love China because it defines me, at least partially. I love our languages (Mandarin is beautiful and the dialects are fascinating!). I love Chinese calligraphy (even though my own handwriting is terrible). I love the many beautiful poems and verses from Tang, Song dynasties (my favorites are the work by Su Dong Po – he was quite a character too – can be described as cool in modern day language). On the lighter side, I love Peking Opera, Shanghai Opera, Gui Lin, Jiu Zhai Gou, Jiao Zi, Xiao Long Bao, and Chao Nian Gao. But above all, I love the people and their humble and unpolished forms of sincerity. Last summer, I visited a village in one of the poorest provinces in the southwest. We were there to build a new elementary school for the village. The people there have been pinching pennies to build a new school (there was a poster in the village center listing scores of small donations, mostly 1 mao 5 mao or 1 yuan 2 yuan). They were so thrilled that we wanted to help and welcomed us with such warmth and hospitality! At the end of the visit, we were treated with a very special lunch prepared by many families from the village: they were so poor that a family only had the resource to make one or even half of a dish.
As a country, China has met tremendous obstacles in the past and each time it has triumphed, mostly not because of its governments, but because of its people. I believe that this will always be true.
Thank you.
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Hi, james. This perhaps is the first time that I read your article carefully (word by word). I think you did very good job this time. Good luck in China.
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I see this so call "China Bashing Media War" is developing into personal level - between the Western journalists and the Chinese people. When did you last hear any thing from the Chinese government? The Chinese government has no need to even open it's mouth. These kind of debates with the Western Medias in the internet are purely straight from the regular Chinese people all over the world (like myself for one.)
I do find more than often Western Journalists go into China as if they are the big boss with arrogant know-it-all patronizing manner expecting to see bad things happen all the time, assuming, speculating, picking at the China as if China is the worker hired by the Western Democracy maker employer. They keep telling or implying to the Chinese how bad their government is over and over again while disregarding the Chinese people's opinion about their own Government. The Chinese of course are resentful. By showing the Western media who are the authority and boss in such judgment they tell the Western media to get off their back because they don't need to be told. Because they are the ones living with their government's decision day in day out so they are the only ones who hold the truth. Look if you are comfortable with something but your neighbors keep coming over telling you it's not comfortable at all, like they know better than you. Would you be annoyed?
It's all pride and dignity I think. I had mention in my previous comment that the commotion mostly caused by the fact that Western medias have been too offensive while the Chinese too defensive. It's very likely the manner of the Chinese's plain speaking is too harsh, the Western media now is offended so they too become defensive. They write even more negative stuff about the Chinese. It's expending from the Government criticism to Chinese people criticism in general. The Chinese responded even more furiously. It's become a vicious cycle. Evidently the fight now is about the pride of the Western journalists and the Chinese people, to show who's on the right side, period. Chinese Nationalism and One Party CCP authoritarianism agendas are the weapon of the Western journalists while "China Bashing" is the Chinese's.
One good thing comes out of this "China Bashing Media War," if it's indeed the intention of West to use this opportunity to twit China's nose(It's more than likely because Tibet issue,) I congratulate their brilliancy. The Chinese are made very furious but they are also very united together like they have never before around the world. It also bring out the Chinese Nationalism which makes the West fearful.
As they say in China ???? ( when it becomes too extreme, it creates the exact opposite effect.)
At last, I think all things will come to a limit eventually. Free Media West should consider their share of responsibility in producing blood shed and social instability. Intentional misinformation rumors manufacturing business is lethal.
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As an oversea Chinese lived enough life on both China and the in the U.S, I find the best way to gain respect when being attacked on either side is in the ways one handle criticism and crisis. For example I really respect Hillary Clinton just for the ways she handle the meanest personal character assassination, slander, despicable insult with such coolness grace and poise. Truly a classy strong lady. I don't know how she can manage all that. If I were Hillary, I really would wish I had never been born.
Perhaps many Chinese living in China not too aware that the Western media have always bad mouth everyone everything if they can help it. True media is The Propaganda because it's called Media. Anyone can use it since it's so handy and easily be manipulated. But why China is singled out all the time? Well because China is in the center of the world stage for quite a while now, especially during the Olympics. Red Hot China is going to unveil it's cover to show the the world the most exciting news and events for the season. Who can resist? Any news about China seem sell very well. So you guys in China should cash in such opportunity show your class good manner and gracefulness in handling criticism. Show your confidence as well as ability in handling crisis (Sichuan Earthquake management was a success for example.) Show your worldly sophistication in dealing with different people around the world. Show your good quality and kindness. Show you are much better than the Western media. Anger and retaliation usually don't work well. Remind the world that we once had Mao but we also had our beloved PM Mr. Zhou Enlai (???.) Smile diplomacy win hearts while verbal retaliation only break hearts although you can't make every one like you and there are always something people want to say about you. You just have to live with it in good grace.
History of past and nationalism pride can only help so much. You can't always look back at history for solace every time you get criticized because you can't see what's in front of you. You must look forward and beyond therefore move on. Not that you forget about the history but learn from history and make your own brand new history.
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This topic can go on for ever.
But, the first time I felt Mr Reynolds are helping the readers to see behind.
So many responses.
#12, I don't think China or ordinary Chinese ever thought of claiming Korea as part of China. This is something very new to me. I lawys thought he two countries have been friends for thousands of years.
# 66, my goodness, you must be overseas for a very very long time. There may be rights or wrongs in the students movement at Tian An mun, but using Tanks to 'kill' defenseless young peole while they were asleep is not right. This is FACT and very BASIC.
#75 Well said Mr Crawford.
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Since Yuan(Mongolian ruled) dynasty (since 13th century), Tibet became part of China. Ming (Han ruled)Dynasty inherited Yuan's land during which Tibet remained as part of China. In 1571, Altan Khan, a descendant of the first enperor of Yuan Dynasty Kubllai Khan, received the title Shunyi Wang from the Longqing emperor of Ming dynasty. In 1578, Alan Khan invited Sonam Gyatso, a Tibetan monk of the Gelug(yellow Hat) school to Mongolia. On his arrival the khan addressed him by the name of Dalai Lama. Since then all subsequent Dalai Lama including the current 14th Dalai Lama had to be installed the same way in accodance with the centuries old administrative tradition. However, Tibetan high Lamas often used their influence to bribe and cheat the ancient selection process of the next child to be the reincarnated Dalai Lama successor for their own benefits. As a result, five Dalai Lamas were either killed or murdered hy their own high Lamas. Ching(Manchurian ruled) Dynasty tightened the selection process of Dalai Lama. In 1792 Ching Qian Long Emper instituted a system of selecting the next child Dalai Lama and Panchan Lama by means of a lottery with all the names and birth years of the selected competing child candidates written in 3 languages, Manchu, Han Chinese, and Tibetan., on ivory slips which were then placed in a golden urn and used in the Chinese Emperor approved procedure for selecting the next successor. Mongolians and Manchurians are not seen as foreigners by Chinese. Yuan and Ching adopted HanChinese system during their rule. Qing empires used Chinese(written) and Mandarin(Spoken) as their official language. Many Qing empires' Chinese reached highest level that many Han scholars could not reach. They are just two of the 56 ethnics in China. Entire Manchu remains as part of China nowadays. Outer Mongolia became independent in 1924 after Soviet troop occupied it for three years. The Republic of China (1911-1949) and People's Rebublic China(1911-now) could not (in reality) match Soviet Union's military power. China was forced to accept the permanent seperation of Outer Mongolia in 1950. Inner Mongolia and majority of Mongols population remains in China. British invaded Tibet twice (1888 and 1903)and tried to divide Tibet into Outter and inner Tibet. However, they had no succeeded. The USA also has also lauched a secret war in Tibet. CIA actively funded and trained Tibetan separists' guerrilla war agaist China until 1970s. Today, under the banner of China stand 56 ethnics, we are all called Chinese. There are separists around just like they exist in every single nations on the planet. The only thing that may be different is Tibetan separists have the backing of western powers under the cover of human rights and religious freedom. The US will never let any other nations that have the potentials to overtake to develop peacefully. Tibet issue is currently being used as a dice in this political game together with a media propoganda campaign. Let's keep an eye on them.
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I teach classes about China, Mr. Reynolds, thank you this is right on the money. I explain to students all the time, about the "Century of Humiliation."
In the United States, we just had Ted Koppel's series on Discovery Channel called the People's Republic of Capitalism.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/koppel/koppel.html
I added this to my blog
http://tucsonmike.wordpress.com under The People's Republic of Capitalism.
Thank you again.
Mike
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Excellent post and great explanation of nationalistic perceptions in China.
For readers' possible interest, here is a link to an excellent research bulletin regarding China's economic and political outlook in the face of prevailing global trends -
http://www.globalsecuritieswatch.org/PRC_Sovereign_Risk_Review.pdf
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I can't also help notice that you did not really go in the streets and interview people in China and ask how they felt. It is one thing to make a claim on the internet and receive the responses, and another to go forth to the people and ask their views. I am not saying your points are invalid, but you know that if you put accusations onto people, eg "China hates the west", "You might hate CHina, but we will be stronger and overpower you" or things like "China is communist and brainwashes its people who are mere puppets"..etc, such comments do invite some ferocious replies...
If you live with CHinese people, you will notice we contend with what we have, we respect the authority and we do want to make things better.
Again, there are many reports of corruption and malpractice here and there, and you saw that the SIchuan schools were built by soulless dimwits who had the primary concern to make money instead of thinking of safety.... Yes, these exists, and CHina is not perfect. Yet, you cannot generalise this to the whole population. You might think Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan are Chinese and every Chinese person is good at Kung Fu - not really. So, the same goes for corruption and the bad reports. As the saying goes - it takes a little bit of this and a little bit of that to make a world. We try our best to keep the good bits, just like everyone else in other countries. Just because we accept the communism, does not mean we just blindly follow some nationalist views. We love our country, our land, our people. If you have been in a Chinese family, you would know that we respect our principles and values (yes, some of us go astray, but again, it does not mean everyone does! Black sheep do exist, yeah?).
Just because we don't mention something in CHina, does not mean we are not aware of it. We know about what some call brainwash and propaganda in CHina. We might not agree with some things, but it does not mean we have to go into revolt. There are many other ways to express disagreement than gathering in the streets to shout and riot.
You really cannot say that CHina and the west are incompatible. The only problem is that the west(mainly the USA) meddles with everybody's business - do you like your neighbour to tell you what you should do at home? Nobody does. Sometimes, it's good to receive some advice, and yes, when there is injustice, this should be addressed. It's true China is taking its time to address many issues, but all in due time.
In all and all, you are right to raise a topic our how proud we are of the country, how much we love it, but it does not mean we are arrogant and blind about the situation. We have not been boasting about anything - all we are doing is just getting on with what we do and try to be good at it. We all have an ideal to love and cherish, and ours is our country, our people, not ourselves.
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Took me a while to read this post and all the comments but it was worth it.
I'm glad all the topics I wanted to comment on were already discussed, complete with perspectives from both sides, namely, China, and "the West".
Born in Taiwan and moved to and grew up in Texas since I was 8, a very important contrast is that the Eastern style of thinking puts a heavier emphasis on "critiquing oneself".
In a conflict, asking yourself if you did anything wrong BEFORE pointing the finger. And you would be able to answer that question when you put yourself in the other person's shoes. The golden rule: "Do not do to others what you do not want done to you."
The military buildup in China is to make sure history does not repeat itself, (Opium War, Japanese invasion) not to attack other countries. Ask this question, how many countries had China attacked in the past 2000 years? Foreign forces were able to win in China is in large part due to internal strife, shooting yourself in the foot before a fight. So now the Chinese government is making sure the people stand as one, and of course maintain a large military to prevent from being bullied.
1. Biased news coverage is only throwing fuel on the fire. (but I have to note this post is the best I've seen so far, great job James).
2. Americans are scared because they are finally realizing their dependence on China and the fact that it is steadily rising as a world power.
Bottom line is, things will be better if both the Chinese and the West try to understand ideas and issues from the other's perspective more as well as history. (more so for the West)
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to bokaroseani
Not chinese citizen doesn't conflict with not being chinese.
I am not chinese citizen any more as I am british now but I am still ethic chinese.
You can always criticise other people's view but blanket other to a certain category and discounted their view is not good way of communication.
Maybe chinese could say the same: since your are from a western country and know nothing about china, maybe we just shouldn't care what you say. Will that help? I believe not.
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My views on who are more brainwashed, the Chinese vs. Westerners:
I wonder on what ground an average Chinese can judge westerners are brainwashed.
Afterall, in China, the government and media are basically one machine that no one can persistently publish views that are different from what the government wants people to have (think about the journalist that got arrested a few months ago - forgot his name - I don't think many people in China would know about that anyway). So, having been living in this carefully censored and controlled system for most of their lives, the Chinese cannot simply judge the West is more brainwashed, for the fact that all source of information an average Chinese can ever reach have already been censored by the Chinese government and the media.
So, what happens is, when they see an uncensored website such as BBC, they see views that are so different from what they have been taught and fed, and find it unbelievable and 'biased' or with hidden agendas.
It's all different in the West. You don't get any censors on the TV and internet (another fact that is hard to believe for many Chinese), so, you have the opportunity to find any truth and facts outside the so-called mainstream media. At least, BBC allows you to post different views on this blog.
I dont think you would be allowed to do this kind of discussion on any Chinese newspaper's website anyway. At best, your comments get deleted, at worst, you get yourself into real trouble.
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One thing James said is very true, Chinese and China do want to be friends with the West, but we don't beg the West or sacriface our national interests.
Probably only less than 5 countries in the world ever dare to say NO to US, unfortunately China is on the top 1 or 2 in the list(China or Russian takes the top spot).
Some Chinese people still wrongly think the West is rich. Yes, the country is richer than China, but people are the same, worrying about mortgages, jobs, food/fuel prices etc. I am earning a salary probably higher than 90% of local British people, but I feel the life quality is no better than when I was in China.
For those who asked why some Chinese move to foriegn cuntries for education or work, I want to say for different reasons, and all are good to your economy. For me I have never worked in a British company, and I might have paid more tax in the UK than you do, besides I am waiting for a opportunity to move back to China. Studying or working in foreign countries does not mean we don't love our country.
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Well written report James!
There is not more I can say.
I don't want to generalise all the Chinese but it is true that the Chinese are too defensive and over-sensitive when they get critised.
The West have done terrible things in the past, that's true, but at least they have gone through a lot and have evolved through trial and error. In the West, there is more debate going on and you always get two opinions on any issue. For example in the States you have a fair amount of people both for and against the Bush administration. There is a lot more openness in the West.
In most parts of Asia people are still very conservative and emotional, especially when it comes to national issues. Afterall, in Asia, things have really just started after the second world war. Few thousand years of history doesn't really mean much when you look at modern Asia, i.e. Western clothes, Western style architecture, Western style companies, Western style sports (Olympics), Western style means of transportation, Western law system, etc. The list goes on.
Whether you like it or not, Asia have pretty much adopted the Western system/way. You don't see everyday people wearing traditional Chinese clothes to work, do you? We are bound to follow the Western way! The so called "cultures" only exist on the surface. You see them on festivals, in restaurants. Let me say it again, we are all part of the Western system!
Conclusion: The West are more competent and experienced, though not perfect, it is true they are more advanced both mentally(freedom of expression, human rights) and physically(infrastructure, law systems, social benefits). Since we are all more or less a part of the Western system, why not follow its rules?
I don't want to offend people but I wonder, if China is so great why do thousands of Chinese want to go to the West?
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James, good work, attracted to so many comments from east and west.
Thank you for providing such a platform for readers to express their opinions, although there were some extreme comments, it is still good to read all the different views.
I am a British Chinese in UK for nearly 20 years, deep down I still attached to China, as No.70 comment said. I love my birth country, the family and friends over there keep us close associate with China. We visit China at least once a year, and were excited each time to see so many changes.
Chinese are not afraid of criticsm. 'The Ugly Chinaman' written by Bo Yang, a Taiwan Chinese in 80s, exam and exposed some bad characterises of Chinese in much deeper and wider scale. People can argue about his points, still this book was like a mirror for us to check ourselves. Sadly the author died in April this year at the age 88, he is held great respect in China.
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To 129,
Sorry I do not agree you. We think different from you, we look different and we eat different. We write different, we speak different. From some level, I still think we wear different from you. we have our cultures which developed from our history which deeply in our blood. Western system only have developed for about 300 years, within the history it is just a very short period. It does not necessary mean that it would be always good.
We Chinese come to the west to study the good and bring back and fit our own country which should be situable for our own country. But not everyting! China has our own situation which has 1.3B population. Your system which is fit for you does not mean it would be fit for China!!! Your rule is your rule not ours, how on earth we have to follow yours. There is not such a thing which constant exist in the world, only the stronger can survive, not the rules.
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wayjayth post 129.
You have made some interesting points about Western culture influence. What I believe in as a Tibetan is that all cultures and traditions have strength and weakness, advantages and disadvantages, good and bad and so on and so forth. What's important is to adopt the good ones. What are the good ones? - one might ask. In my honest opinion we human beings seek happiness, but that happiness should not come out of hurting other people. Respecting other people's opinion and having an open discussion is also critical.
In the end you have posed a question - "if China is so great why do thousands of Chinese want to go to the West?". Let me try to answer that. As I have mentioned, human nature is to seek happiness. This happiness comes from both physical and mental well-being. Just having a lot of money, living in a high-rise building and driving a car is not the answer to happiness. You need peace of mind also. You need respect. People in China live in fear (at least the majority). They have no voice in the government. They cannot speak their feelings, pain and suffering. There is no human rights, no religious freedom, no freedom of press.
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James, you did a fairly good job in answering the question of "what is the source of national pride and sentiment of the Chinese." I'm a China born American Chinese. Here is my view: when half of the people living in the western world gain the basic knowledge about China as you do, the world will be a lot peaceful. God bless the world.
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Do not know if we need a third world war.haha, do not if it can be published. haha
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good observation Ricecake202, on #118
Like to add a few things.
For tens of years the West have been putting down the Chinese in the medias, in everyday communications, in movies and on TV shows, and even in history text books.
Now Westerners ask why the Chinese have not changed?
They say, the Chinese people must be a very stupid race or have had their minds brainwashed by the gov't.
They ask, why are the Chinese so in love with a country that don't have western style human rights, no freedoms of speech and in the press.
May be it's because the Chinese are living the good life for the first time in many years and have stopped to enjoy it. The Chinese feel born again now, have just started to walk and will need time before it can run in the rat race.
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On the surface, James appears to have understood Chinese Nationalism. I am Chinese and I live in the UK, I have live in the UK for 30 years and have a family in the UK. Nationalism and Patriotism from the perspective of an Englishman is very different from that of a Chinese. Honour means not a lot to the West, however to the Chinese it is what we are. In most instances an Englishman can look you in the face and lie to you, I am not saying that the Chinese does not do that at all, in our history, some Chines have picked up this bad habit, but not a common practise. We are like as the English will say, 'chalk and cheese'. The English culture is build on one that exploits other civilisation and the demeaning of others, this by the way is sometimes in modern English referred to 'having a good laugh'. The English will laugh at the OLD, the Infirm, the Disabled, we on the other hand will frown on this practise. I am not saying whether this is right or this is wrong. We have alot of respect for the Elderly in our society, the English will be quite happy to cast them aside, forgetting these elderly contribution to society and what thy have done for the present generation.
The sum of our past makes us who we are today, and we must remember our past mistakes so that we do not repeat the mistakes of our forefathers.
The English strive for individuality and tries their best to make a statement of who they are regardless of who they may trample on or hurt in the process. There's a saying in English, 'I'm alright Jack', 'forget everyone else'.
How the world have changed and because of the media and western programming on televisions and the movies, we are now seeing these attitudes in our society, not so much in China, because it is still pretty under exposed to such media, because of how rural some places are in China and in the Far East. Wanton consumerism is rife in places exposed to these media, Chinese youths losing their identity and emulating the English or American, one example is the Chinese youths adopting the English names. They are so ashamed of their identity that they have to adopt one that is so alien to their culture. I am who I am and I am proud of my ancestry, I am CHINESE. I still have a full Chinese name.
As a Chinese we do not air our shame in public, unlike the English, their society think nothing of baring all in public including their modesty. This is not who we are, hopefully we have sufficient values instill in us by our heritage and parents to know that this is not something we should indulge in.
The English society for that matter the Western society is on the path to destruction, drugs, std, homosexuality all good things in the eyes of the West, who are we to judge them. They should be left to do as they please, and I hope they will leave us to live as we please.
I think that is how the Roman empire ended if my memory serves me right.
Well, we are still here, the Chinese after 5 thousand years. We do not profess to be the most civilised nor the greatest, but we have made our contributions to society, e.g. printing, gunpowder, the trapment mechanism, paper and one or two others, hey it's no big deal. That is what civilisation is all about.
Civilisation comes and goes, pretty much like the Romans, Macedonians, Spartans etc. perhaps if we do not have the discipline and moral virtues, we will end in the same way.
What I cannot understand are those Chinese who are so ashamed of their culture and heritage that they have to adopt others, and set themselves on the path to destruction. I have alot of BBC (British Born Chinese) friends, they frown on the old ways. They think it is trendy to live like the English. They forgot they are looked at by the English as a 2nd class citizen, changing your name and your way of life does not make you an Englishman. Even our youths today indulges in McDonalds and KFC, again we now know that this leads to obesity and bad health. The traditional food appears to have been over taken by these commercialised fast food.
Perhaps one day, the time is not right for an Englishman like James Reynolds to fully understand the Chinese, there is no mysticism, just the Chinese way, we don't agree on alot of things, and we shall see where our society will be in 200 years from now.
There are over a billion Chinese in China who lived in poverty up until 20 years ago, except those in Hong Kong and Macau. Now the majority is out of poverty but still there are alot of people who live well below the poverty line in China. People forgets how a country like China, took its people out of poverty, gave them pride with the Olympics, and be able to help others with no preconceptions.
The rise of China will cause the decline of the West, this will inevitably cause some resentment. Wouldn't you? if your neighbour are better off than you in general. So try to see it from a Western perspective, why China is a threat to the West imaginary or real.
People forget that a civilisation like China have no interest in dominating the West, because the first thing that China does when it has a civilization was to build a wall to protect itself. So historically we the Chinese have no interest in dominating the west, and that still holds true today.
We will trade with the West and listens to their views,we may not adopt it, it does not mean that we do not want to live in peace. People forget that China is a country comprising 56 major ethnic groups and we try to live in peace, hopefully with no interference from the West.
The Tibetan is only an issue because the West wishes to make an issue of it. The question of Human rights is all too easily forgotten pre 1959 and what happens to the serfs in Tibets serving the monks like the Dalai Lama, tell that to the serf who died in servitude to the Dalai Lama's family.
The English commits alot of attrocities across their empire, but who champions that, not China, because it is none of our business, same as incidence in China is no one elses business but our own.
The Americans, they wipe out most of the Red Indians, who champions for them, in Vietnam, they wipe out families like the incident in MyLai, who champions that? So don't start lecturing the Chinese when perhaps your past is probably filthier than ours, we are not squeaky clean, but at least we do our best to accomodate to what is the common perception of how we should lead our lives in the 21st Century. At least we don't go invading other countries and try to impose our way of life on them, and claims that it is the best. We also try not to set up proxy Governments to server our interests. Our presence in some parts of the world may be over whelming to some just because there are so many of us, but truthfully, how many of us are really involved in your politics?
We may breathe the same air and drink the same water, we put on our trousers one leg at a time, we are bi-pedal, yet we are very, very different as a people and a country.
No mysticism, just 5 thousand years of existance on this planet, oh by the way how old was the west again? Same analogy as trying to teach your mum and dad to reproduce I suppose. It's just that your way is not our way.
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to #129, wayjayth
because you need skilled workers and educated people to make your companies run.
And all the western stuff you'd mentioned is not so western, just look back a few hundred years and you'll find many ideas and things came from the east.
Go East young man, open your eyes to the realities of China. What you have seen on TV is not all of China.
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to fairreport:
I think many Chinese people have so far been only interested in the 'life quality' thing that you are talking about here i.e. as long as you have enough money to spend you feel good and that's all that matters.
But what about other aspects of life? Do you care about whether you have the freedom of expression? Do you want to choose your own leaders? Do you care whether your countrymen can express themselves freely like what you can do in this country?
You probably don't care and might think you will never need to, but I think Chinese people should start thinking about what kind of values they want to stand for and how they are going to pursue it. They should also stop seeing everything as conpiracies.
To test where you can have real freedom, try holding a sign that says 'No Olympics for China' in Tiananmen Square and see what will happen to you. Feel free to do the same for 'No Olympics for Britain' in Trafalfgar Square.
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I am afraid to say that Fairreport encapsulates everything that is wrong with China today, and I do not refer to the opening comment used by James. In just a few posts, he has managed to assure us that he has a house in London, a salary larger than 90% of the British population and a financial job in the city with a multinational firm.
I once hoped that the Chinese nation could teach the West something about living a spiritual life where money was not central to every aspect of life (Buddhism, Taoism). It seems China has now over-taken the West with money being an obsession. So much so that everywhere in China people are now attempting to cheat each other out of money, including their foreign guests.
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Wow oh Wow!! I am so amazed!!
Thank you James for this article which embarked so many interesting comments. I had never know I could get so deeply affected by people’s comments. One sentence in +116 comments from Steohanie11w made me break into tears alone : I love China because it defines me.
So simple yet true. we love china because it is partly just-- us, our color of the skin, the eyes and the blood run deeply in the vein. Why would I hate myself being me? Maybe british master was so disappointed that we don’t think they are superior and did not treat them with utter humbleness? I am sorry china was defeated in the past but never conquered. It’s culture carried on.
We love china not only because of the century of humiliation but also the forty five centuries before that including many wars and reconciliations, change of dynasties and ethics in power, survivings and conquering, love and hate, strategy and conspiracy, romance and conflict, the peom, the literature, the culture, the entrainments, the music, the stories passed alone as the legacy, the heroes and heroines, the friendship and the families, the art and the calligraphy. Being a Chinese is thrilling. We have more to enjoy than simply go down to the pub and drink until stupid. (By the way, if you found this is a challenge to your pride , we might be able to say in future –we found british can be a bit oversensitive when come alone with criticism)
Thanks for so many interesting comments. I see a lot long great depth discussion about china and its culture and its history, more than you can ever get from a BBC journalist. I counted the posts found more than half disagree with James to some extend. Instead of call all of us brainwashed, some of which never ever lived in china for single day, some are the third generation down the line, why some westerners can’t just simply accept that maybe in a tiny little part that we might be telling the truth and you are wrong. Calling us arrogant er?
The more I read the comment the more I love you, my Chinese brother and sisters. I could not put those comments in a better way myself. Thanks to steophanie11w, your post covers Chinese culture rather than just politics, which I think BBC is having difficulty to get away from even if it is only tiny part of Chinese people’s life.
And post 23 from Krsund70, thanks for a great in depth discussion about Chinese history.
Great thanks to Shriefcatman and smartmoon, charlescrowford, azrielk and richpea, Englishs like you guys keep my faith that we can still communicate normally despite the huge barriers put up by both nations and its medias. Thank god there are still people who do think rather accept.
Endyjai thanks for supporting us, god bless you and your girl friend. I am just afraid you will be branded brainwashed soon.
And thanks to wonderfulchinese, shouli, tinyfromchina, richshawesquire, adls12, 8outofhere8, ricecake202, cfleung, lzen99 for lovely in-depth description of Chinese history, also kennethwu, bookclips, bluejeanbj, bird416, hizento, fairpoint, themiddlepath, jetgirl, monkeybot5000, tclim38, debien 83, ect ect, thanks for using a foreign lauguage and made our stance here. The list goes on, I did not intend to be exhaustive. Love ya my brothers and sisters, love your spirit and courage for speaking out. That is another reason I love china. James please add this down to your list. I love china because its people! They are just simply amazing.
By the way, to post 85 roare001: if 800 years being with china doesn’t make Tibet part of china what would? Do you think you are still French? Certainly in 13th century you were still under French rule right? Maybe Americans should return to England too, 200 years is really nothing.
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to post 129
>>I don't want to offend people but I wonder, if China is so great why do thousands of Chinese want to go to the West?
I thought people have the right to move around for whichever reason, families, study, seeing new world. it is one of the basic human rights. It is not only british can go to other countries while other countries people can not go anywhere? Maybe you should say so to british during last century.
BTW do you know the number of people who move from briton to china every year? 500,000, just below australia 800,00 per year. china is the second largest immegration country for brits.
Yes I know, I crackled when I saw the figures on the metro the other day.
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Hi James,
I'm not on your side completedly. You used "sentiment" as the title but in the article, you named it as "country pride". Hehe, it's a joke.
Anyway, it's one of the best aritcles I've read on Chinese and Western to understand each other.
If your motherland is Egypt or Greek, I'll tootaly agree with you. I've ever been to British Museum, I think I can understand what they will feel when they enter the hall.
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Thank you for your insights. I live in Taiwan and I would like to understand why China feels so strongly about making Taiwan a part of China. Taiwan has its own aboriginal people, was ruled by Japan in the late 1800s-1945 and is currently a vibrant democracy.
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to: wayjayth
If that's not one of the most ethnocentric things said here, I don't know what is. You make several leaps of logic to put together an invalid self-congratulatory conclusion. Because people have adopted Western styles, it makes the West mentally and structurally superior? I guess you like going for the all-or-nothing fallacy, as well as the red herring fallacy (arguments do not lead to conclusion)? And let's not forget the argumentum ad populum (appeal to number) later on, either.
You seem to enjoy leaving out the intricacies of globalization, settling on a nice reductionist fairytale that makes the West the great savior. You basically mix culture and political circumstances to your own gain in order to promote your own version of the world.
By the way, if a thousand years of history doesn't seem to mean much to you, I think the anthropologists and historians in academia (in BOTH East AND West), as well as other scholars, would like to have a word with you. Maybe you should ask them why.
At best you're lying to yourself. At worst, you're baiting. Either way, you're dishonest. There's no need to use insincere disclaimers like "I don't mean to offend," because by trumpeting Western superiority Eastern inferiority, you obviously did.
At any rate, I don't think you understand any of what James was saying, and instead used this article as a chance to mouth off your own ideas. You certainly did not bother to actually respond to any of his ideas specifically, which seems to point out that you weren't really interested in them in the first place.
Unfortunately, this ignorance and arrogance is perhaps part of what drives the backlash of people not just in China, but globally.
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One thing to bear in mind: You don't need to have a good government to have good people in a country.
Your government does not have to be the best, your country does not have to be the richest, your army does not need to b the most advanced, your economy does not have to be the most prosperous. You don't have to have all these to do what is right(and what is considered right by your fellow countrymen) for your country and love your country. For me, the love for my country comes from wanting to help those around me, unconditionally.
If you went down in the streets of every country, if you were willing to overlook what media says and all that, you would find there are good people everywhere.
Your country is part of your identity and yourself - you do what is right for it and your people.
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Someone asked the question: 'Why do Chinese want to go to the west?'.
If you know something about CHina and its different ethnicities, you would find that people of a certain region like to travel. They are nomadic. Most of these people speak cantonese - you ever been to a china town in the west or in another country? Try it.
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Wel said Fairreport - even if you go abroad to study or work, does not mean you don't like your country. Personal situation and other circumstances are to be considered.
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Many of us have questioned why CHinese people leave China to go abroad.
I have to ask, why do many westerners leave their country to go abroad?
Simple: There was an opportunity that you liked, that you found abroad, that is not available in your home country. Many of my UK friends are exiling to France and Italy because they like the weather and the lifestyle. Do you blame them? Many of my American friends go and work abroad for money. I have friends in Africa and Philipines who have to leave their families to go and work in a country to make some money and send back home, to help their husbands and children. Can you blame them? They found a way that worked for them, that they could not find back home. You cannot say that you immigrated because you don't love your country. You just had to.
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As an American Chinese, I pretty much agree with everything in this article. I would like to add one thing.
Mere pride (which is not the same as patriotism, I think) does not justify the Chinese sensitivity to criticism. To understand their reaction, one must realize how heavily the Chinese value 'face'. It is their biggest obstacle for any type of rational self-examination, self-responsibility, and genuine humility.
Their attacks on BBC and Western media goes beyond reasonable self-defense. First, there's no reason involved. Second, it's rarely ever about real substance, but only their "face".
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LOL, congrats!!!! Your article has attracted so many comments.
I believe every country is simply acting on the global stage to serve the best of their national interest. There is nothing self-fish and irresponsible of that. But it is hypocritical and irresponsible when your western countries accuse us for all your problems and hindering us of pursuing national interest in a much more mildly way than you were (and are). I personally believe issues like Darfur and Tibet is just a beginning of a century’s long arguments and misunderstandings between the west and china, which will escalate into conflicts if mismanaged. And if your western media continues to miss the point, as you have always been, you will never get the support of Chinese people nor its elites in issues like human right and democracy, which should be in favor of our chinese since is our human right that you are trying to get it for us from the doctrine government. The fanatical favor of the west before 1989 is long gone. If you guys can not see the reason why you are losing Chinese people’s support over the past 20 years and continue to use westernized and superior lens in reporting, I am afraid you will never win our hearts back again.
(By the way, the source of all problems in Africa is poverty, not Chinese “invasion”. And the same applies for terrorism. If you journalists keep missing the point and only see the superficial problems of long term issues, you will always face constant challenges and tackle them through endless short-term solutions.)
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I dont think you would be allowed to do this kind of discussion on any Chinese newspaper's website anyway. At best, your comments get deleted, at worst, you get yourself into real trouble
-- No.127, Heyone
Heyone, I think what you try to say is just base on what BBC reports. If you talk about its biased or not biased. At least you should learn to understand what other people say and what other medias reports. You ground is saying because western media reports, then its must be true. Because our media is not censored.
How about hundreds chinese forgien medias, how about millions oversea chinese who saw the both side of the story, who understand what happen and who know what they talking about? You judgement is base on a one side biased understanding. You didnt try to understand what the other side says. (I know u dont know Chinese or anyother languages, not your fault). But make judgement base on single side story, its biased.
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Re. post 127
"It's all different in the West. You don't get any censors on the TV and internet (another fact that is hard to believe for many Chinese), so, you have the opportunity to find any truth and facts outside the so-called mainstream media. At least, BBC allows you to post different views on this blog."
Interesting argument.
Tell me though, when was the last time you saw anyone on the BBC or the CNN speaking of China positively? This is why I said the Westeners are more brainwashed by the likes of BBC. They see themselves the guardians, defenders and saviour of the Western 'value', and they simply can't put up with the 'little yellow bugger' becoming their equal.
China's success have made them jealous and frustrated. During the BBC coverage of 1989 Tian Anmen in China, they were overly excited and thrilled by the "movement" and hysterically predicted the demise of the PRC. But to their dismay, China has been getting stronger on the day.
This blog? You make me laugh. Millions of Chinese websites are out there open 24/7 for more heated discussions than this. Bet you are not Chinese, are you?
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I agree that Western media does tend to portray a negative image of China, but let it not be forgotten that most countries do this, and China is one of the worst culprits. I'm almost positive that the Chinese press will be carrying a picture of Gordon Brown grinning behind a gun today, with suggestions of Britain being an aggressor. I wonder if they will also explain that the incident was a gaffe and a soldier let go of the gun so it swiveled round to that position? I wonder...
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"When China feels under attack, this pride turns into a frustration and anger that the West is still trying to hold it back and humiliate it."
you know what James, it's not exactly true.
There is a saying in china that reads like this: don't say 'short' in front of a short guy. Because people know their own problem and it's already hard enough for themselves to live with it. Imagine that you were disabled, what would you feel when people point it out right at your face?
Chinese people get defensive when critisized, very often because they know that you are telling the truth. Of course they get frustrated and angered. It's a hard enough battle even without any discouragement or shame forced to their faces from outsiders.
It would be good and important to critisize the government all the time, when its own people have the right to do so. At the moment, criticism from outside is more likely to help CCP to misdirect the problems. That's probably why even Chinese with a liberal political view would dislike western reports.
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thanks to comment no.12. I've learned sth doday. no.127 and 129 are for good laughs. haha...
very good post and really really good debate afterwards. took me hours to read all
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James:
A great blog report!
It gave both sides of the argument....
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People have talked about neighbours like Korea and Japan reacting to China. Well,
some of us in India worry a lot about Chinese nationalism too. Here are just a few reasons:
China claims large parts of Indian territory as it's own, including large parts of Arunachal Pradesh. In fact diplomats from this part of India don't get visas in China -- they are routinely told that as Chinese citizens they don't need them! India, on the other hand, lays no claims to any territory under existing Chinese sovereignty, except a small part of Kashmir called Aksai Chin, which was captured during the 1962 war.
Several of my Chinese friends mention that China has never attacked anyone. This is not true. India was attacked in 1962, with no warning. We were completely unprepared and soundly defeated. Nehru never recovered, and died soon afterwards. Up to this point, the atmosphere had been very friendly. Premier Zhou Enlai (apologies if I spelt it wrong) was almost like an uncle!
People are avidly discussing George Bush and the Olympics. The fact is, no senior dignitory from India, let alone the PM, has even been invited. This may sound silly, but look at it from an Indian point of view -- even the very rude President Sarkozy is welcome, but not our own Manmohan Singh!
This all looks very scary. From our side, no ordinary citizen of India bears any enmity to the Chinese -- for example, the Olympic torch passed through Delhi without incident, not at all like London or Paris.
I have two questions :
1) What do Chinese people feel about India? Do you see us as your enemies? I can understand resentment towards Britain or the US, but how have we harmed you?
2) How is the India-China War of 1962 reported in your history? What reasons are given for it?
This is sort of linked to the larger issue of Chinese nationalism raised by the gentleman from the BBC, and there seem to be a lot of active and intelligent Chinese people reading these blogs, so I thought I would ask.
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WOW! 156 comments on one post~~ It must be a record breaker!!
James, I see that after you've heard different voices, you've become more and more objective, although little but there's still a progress. I hope people could learn from you. And I wish that e extremist from either side, the pro and anti-chinese side could give it a rest. Not everything is against China, but then not everything about China is evil and primitive, okay?
China has its flaws and made LOTS and LOTS of mistakes, not to mention the still awfully handled PR.
But then, is every country or even every person perfect? No, we ALL have flaws, we ALL make mistakes. Should we then go around and point at each other because we think we are better than them?? No, we don't do that in real life, because if you do that, it's called nosy and you'll be the most unpopular person in the school/company, unless of course, you are the leader. It's true when it comes to the nations.Why has it to be so reasonable for a country to point at another country's nose and accuse it for the obvious mistakes that everybody knows is wrong?? For that I blame the US, it's also in their culture that they're the Saviour of the world, the primitive people needs their rescue, they come by god's name, blah blah blah... you get the hint in ALL the US movies and TV series. And that's fine by everyone??
There're stubborn people everywhere, different countries, different races. Either way you are not going to convince each other so why don't just go back to what you believe and hold on to it? Life is short.
I'm not saying the current government is good. It's far away from good. But then what could we do? What could you do? Evict the current government and use one of your guys to be our national leader? Or to do something you did for the middle east people?
Before you come up with anything productive, you'll not be heard by the Chinese people. Especially when you are saying things using a discriminative tone. Would you expect you to listen to people who looks down at you like a god? No.
And would people PLEASE update their facts? I'm so getting tired of saying this - they're a constant rise of democracy across the country. For one you CAN post different opinions on public forum. In fact there're TONNES of different opinions, and people refer to these resources rather than the CCTV these days. The media also refers to these sources.
Maybe it's nothing for you, but it's a start for the people, why couldn't you appreciate it?
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to Comment 138: heyone
when you are hungry, do you care if an empty plate is beautiful? China is in a developing stage and feeding its people is what is all about so far. So why can't Chinese talks about finiancial achievement in front of westerners now?
Oh, so because fairreport talked about his success, he has to be hollow and material and cares no one but himself? Who makes you the judge?
Your superiority is certainly not a rare trait among westerners, to say the least.
Have you tried holding a sign that says 'No Olympics for China' in Tiananmen Square? If you didn't, then stop being arrogant.
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rickshawesquire #86
EXCELLENT commentary. I couldn't have said it any better. The folly of many western viewpoints is revealed by your reality. Frankly, the so called "moral" high ground taken by so many westerner's, when considering the actual history, is laughable at best, ironic at worst.
That said, there are no people or culture in any context who deserve any moral high ground, including the Han Chinese. Just ask the Vietnamese as one recent example.
btw, the commentary here is so much better than the original blog. Thanks for the various perspectives.
Richard
Florida, USA
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to shovonc comment 157:
OMG, why wouldn't Chinese government invite Manmohan Singh? It's so strange and very undiplomatic to say the least.
As a Chinese living in Beijing for more than 20 years and in London for 5, I've never heard any negtive reports about India, seriously. (although I see pics like India trains with people on top sometime, since people think it's somehow funny...) I don't even know about the 1962 war you mentioned. Naturally most of Chinese people (at least those I know) see Indians as friends. Even with recent economical rivery, I don't feel even slightest hostile sentiment towards India.
I guess the 1962 war isn't sth Chinese government being proud of? As I myself have always thought my country is peaceful and non-aggresive all the time, I would really feel sorry to hear that had happened. Admittedly, CCP covers up things.
I may not know much about India, probably limited to buddism, yoga, bollywood and great curry, but I feel keen to India. Have we all been suppressed and then threw off the colonial masters? I can't represent others, this is all mine. Hope it helps a bit...
About Nationalism, I'm not sure it has the same meaning in China. What's the definition to you really? To Chinese, I think it has a lot to do with confucian values.
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I can't agree with you in some points:
1. As you said, one good meida always give the side the gov don't want to show their people ...this is great! Nobody is against democracy in china ,But , regards the attitude to JO Beijing,Tibet issue ,even to china , i have to say BBC reporter add many subjective comments, some reporter give the false picture ( ie: riot tibetain 2008), western media give more camera to one side( pro tibet) without the explanation for real tibtain history and chinese culture; Aggrandize the negative point in china .... This resulted in certain wrong public opinion , even racism !
Attacking chinese embassy,insulting chinese people in web,tear up chinese flag , Boycotting JO beijing....the way the western people chose just put many neutralistic chinese people to another side , and disgust most of chinese people . That is why the chinese people react against the western media and attitude of western people .
This isn't only the question of national sentiment or national pride, or sensitivity , but also the problem of the prejudicial report, the arrogant attitude from the west.. Yes, everyone can made mistake, but why almost most of western media chose the same false picture, use the same subjective vision to china, ignored together the insulting action by anti chinese ...
Even our histroy , culture is different, but i don't think it's very hard to understand why the chinese people is so angry with your media this time. Hard is because maybe your western media hide something to your people or doesn't do good job in the culturcal exchange between us. . ?
2 . I appreicate your research in chinese history espcailly the part with the west .
YES, in order to get large economical benefit , Britsh attack China in 1840 and force the chinese to buy opium , then killed millions of innocent chinese people during several attack to china....And then again the British always act as an intervenor in chinese domestic affair during almost the whole century...
Yes also, entry of Britsh brough some good thing and many of Britsh missionary is also killed by angry chinese people...But compared with british criminal action in china, British give chinese people the incogitable misery!
By now, how many british people know where come form the treasure in the british museum?
But very regretful that british school manual never or rarely collect their invasion to other third world espeically to china.
Maybe with ignorance to these histroy, most of western people behave very arrogant in their mind .
If this was happened in UK not china, i don't think British people think in another way than chinese people about this terrible history
In fact, Histroy is passed thing, but they could teach humain being more things .
3. Either chinese or the western people have the same sentiment ,the same willing in their mind.
Like web Anti-cnn shows
''We are not against the western media, but against the lies and fabricated stories in the media.
We are not against the western people, but against the prejudice from the western society''
Repect , justice is always one way to understanding from two sides .
4. It's clair that misapprehension exist both side, i saw some reports from the reporter like you living in china, their western view or comments distort unconsciously the thing happending in china ,
By their description, the good thing become bad, the bad thing become more dark in the people's mind who never travaled in china.
I am living in france, so i know some opinon from both side, i was also very angry , disappointed with your western media espacilly in passed months this year.
5. China is so huge and complicated country,she has his special situation.
Understanding china is still chinese people who experience the huge change in china. So that is why there are chinese people often told you that we don't want to a unitive,steady and developing situation will be destoried.
Compared with the international political,econimical behavior from the west country, i think this worry has their reason
Thanx your attention to china and your work.
Regards
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I can't agree with you in some points:
1. As you said, one good meida always give the side the gov don't want to show their people ...this is great! Nobody is against democracy in china ,But , regards the attitude to JO Beijing,Tibet issue ,even to china , i have to say BBC reporter add many subjective comments, some reporter give the false picture ( ie: riot tibetain 2008), western media give more camera to one side( pro tibet) without the explanation for real tibtain history and chinese culture; Aggrandize the negative point in china .... This resulted in certain wrong public opinion , even racism !
Attacking chinese embassy,insulting chinese people in web,tear up chinese flag , Boycotting JO beijing....the way the western people chose just put many neutralistic chinese people to another side , and disgust most of chinese people . That is why the chinese people react against the western media and attitude of western people .
This isn't only the question of national sentiment or national pride, or sensitivity , but also the problem of the prejudicial report, the arrogant attitude from the west.. Yes, everyone can made mistake, but why almost most of western media chose the same false picture, use the same subjective vision to china, ignored together the insulting action by anti chinese ...
Even our histroy , culture is different, but i don't think it's very hard to understand why the chinese people is so angry with your media this time. Hard is because maybe your western media hide something to your people or doesn't do good job in the culturcal exchange between us. . ?
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I think you have mistaken Chinese goodwill by saying this. Taking a photo with a foreigner doesn’t necessarily have to mean that they fawned a foreigner who responded politely to be willing taking pictures with them (of course, you can choose to take or not to take pictures with them. It is simply a private right). It can also means the requester can speak “some English/or some other languages depending on the nationality of the foreigner” who successfully invite a foreigner to take a get-together picture. It is sheet a way of practicing/testing languages, why it has to be tied with “show-off”, an attitude often seen from arrogance foreigner.
Looking back to the history of China – the period of being conquered, it is true a Humiliation of the governing parties (Qing Dynasty) because they could not defend the country from being invasion thus the Chinese people suffered. China in the past was proud of her enormous nature resource and splendid civilizations which many other countries had long been jealous. Therefore, when the paralyzed governing party was in power, it was their opportunity to gain the treasuries out of China, and that’s why we seen civilization was destroyed and unequal treaties were signed forced by eye-covetously powers.
The new China opened up to embrace foreigners, giving many preferential policies to attract foreign investments. Foreigners made huge money sending back to their homeland without caring about pollutions made in China and pushing China to be the low end of manufacturing place as best as they can.
China in history has been an agricultural nation who has little experience in developing industries alongside with getting out of pollution nightmare. I hope it is not too late for China to learn from mistake.
Of course, to understand differences without bias is wise, but it is hard to do so no matter in western or eastern cultures. If it can’t be understood, then being diversified is that makes the world beautiful and peaceful.
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Many people have taken my comments out of context. I wish to clarify. I may have sounded extreme but it wasn't my intention.
1. History and Culture
I didn't aim to pass judgements. I really wanted to challenge the idea "China has 5,000years of history, therefore better/superior" that some Chinese hold.
All in all, I don't think the West is always more predominant to the East, it depends on the phase of history. The East used to be predominant in the past. However, it might be fair to say that the West dominated the 19th/20th century. When people were listening to rock music, protesting for human rights, or enjoying themselves at parties, etc, people in the East had just beginning to recover from war and building their country was the only concern. There is a gap. Most Asian countries have adopted the "Western/modern" way. In the process, people more or less had to give up their own culture. Unfortunately, the East started late (sad, but true). For the East, there is basically no link between the previous culture/lifestyle and modern life. The gap comes from this dramatic shift towards the Western way. Therefore the East really has about 60yrs of history as modern states. The West has a continuous history for about 300yrs.
The East surely has a lot to offer, its profound philosophies, inventions, cultural heritage, etc. I do recognise their value. But it should be looked at seperately.
2. Going abroad
Of course people can travel abroad. I never said one shouldn't! What I wanted to say is that obviously the Chinese recognise the Western value and admire it, therefore they like to go abroad and see. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
What I wanted to point out is that the fact that a lot of Chinese yearn for studying at an Ivy League school, working at a foreign company, owning Italian fashion brands, German cars, etc, proves they accept what the West has to offer. Yet they can be selective when it comes to criticism/advice.
It's hypocritical that some people accept a value and when it doesn't suit them they refuse to listen just because they get criticised.
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As a Chinese national living in Australia, who does not believe in communism, is also not a follower of any anti-CCP groups (I believe they are just bunch of junkies). I find myself pretty much agree with 'wayjayth''s argument. He or she certainly has a better understanding than most of the above Chinese commentators of the world we're living in. In order to aviod wild generalization, I don't want to use the phrase 'we Chinese' in my comment as most my compatriots do. I believe my opinion stands for me. So, don't get me wrong. I simply would like to invite my deer compatriots here, if they still have at least patience to listen to another point of view. Let's face it, it's true that the West is 'the' dominating power in the world. It has been taking on this role for at least 300 yrs. As a result, the Westerner has all the reasons to be proud, and unconsiously patronizing and condescending towards the rest of the world. Generally speaking, in most western minds, everything non-western is exotic at best, and irrational and weak at worst. For this reason, they will critisize you for whatever reason if they feel like it, be it human rights (even though they never really cared about it up until mid-last century), be it environment, and list goes on...
They will constantly try to exploit or take advantage of you because they always need it. Why? they need to maintain their best living standard. (BBC just had a news on Cannadians being so hesitant to give up their SUV lifestyle) So be it! You don't like it, you gotta build up your own strength so you can earn respect. Japanese and Koreans have been doing it really well. China, ummmmm, not so well. My deer compatriots, we have to admit that, up to this point, at the begining of this so-called 'China's century', after 59years of People's republic, and after 30 years of reform, the only things the Chinese can really feel proud of are : our nukes and our space program. Nothing else, really. Our victory in sport is nothing but the outcome of Soviet style state sponsorship. The Chinese are not becoming faster, stronger and fitter overall from these victories. It is just part of national pride that the party needs the people to have. It is reasonable, but nonetheless, a sad story. Recently, a large number of factories and businesses in Chinese eastern regions that have made 'made-in-China-Miracle' possible, have been forced to be shut down and go bankruptcy. China's finanical system has been more vulnerable than ever. Other aspects of the Chinese society are also in more or less some kind of trouble or crisis, if you like.
Don't get me wrong! I do not intend to advocate that China is gonna collapse or something of that kind. I certainly don't like to see that. Nothing good for me comes from that. However, I believe these angry and patriotic Chinese who study and live overseas need to be more aware of the reality, and to face the reality, so we may still have chance to change the reality into a new and more favorable one. My suggestion is, save your arrogance to the west for the future when China is truly stong and respectable!
If anyone's interested in, check this website www.dajun.com.cn It's in Chinese though. All the Chinese elite scholars who have different views from the government and the party, but serving in the government and party, post their views on that website.
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To wayjayth No.165:
1. "I didn't aim to pass judgements. I really wanted to challenge the idea "China has 5,000years of history, therefore better/superior" that some Chinese hold."
So it's not fine that people being proud of their own history, and they have to admire west dominance of 19th/20th century? Who is might so who is right?
2."a lot of Chinese yearn for studying at an Ivy League school, working at a foreign company, owning Italian fashion brands, German cars, etc, proves they accept what the West has to offer. Yet they can be selective when it comes to criticism/advice. "
Offering products gives west the right to boss other countries around? Do you ever buy anything made in China? If so you ought to listen to us, won't you? It's not during opium war anymore, I think. Goods doesn't come with missionaries.
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As a Chinese Canadian who has lived more of my life in Canada than China, I'm still intensely proud of China.
Why? Because China has come a long way since the Imperial and Cultural revolution days, especially in improvements to the average citizen's standard of living. The gap between the rich and poor was vast before the communist revolution and the majority of the population lived in poverty. The "Great Leap Forward" put China back a decade and destroyed many important religious and cultural/ethnic heritage.
I don't support the one party system or the corruption that is in the current Chinese government, but like it or not, the CCP might have been the best thing that happened to China at that point in time. When you have the vast majority of population undereducated (most were illerate farmers and peasants) and lacking in the basic neccesities (food) after the world war, democracy was something that would have caused more chaos and harm than a direction to work towards.
Even just in my mother's youth(barely 45 years ago) she did not have enough to eat (eggs and meat were reserved for birthdays and special occasions) until she entered the state paid university, as the only person and girl from her village that year. I asked her if she could have imagined back then travelling around the world and owning her own house like she does today, she said no. Now Chinese children have so much to eat obesity is a problem, and every child is able to go to university.
For a country that is focused on developing and raising standards of living, environmental issues will come second. Just as GB and many parts of the developed world went through the pollutions of the Industrial Revolution.
But China is making progress. My parents return nearly every year and they remark you can see visible differences in air quality and general city greeness in Shanghai and Guangzhou as the years went on.
I'm also very proud of my Chinese heritage, the rich philosophies, arts, history, and especially the ideals of the family life. The close-knitness and that I know I can depend on my family in ways that few Westerners can boast of.
It would be a tough question to answer if I'm asked if Canada and China go head to head in some sport competition, which team would I support.
But I find that in politics and world events, I tend to side with China. Being able to read Chinese, I can read both Chinese and English news. And while the Chinese news tend to be more self congratulatory and lacking in coverage, the English news, especially anything tagged with "Communist China", "Olympics", "Tibet", "Human Rights", tend to very one sided and biased.
The Western perception is still very much geared towards "Communism is Evil" and China is "Communist". Anything labeled with "Democracy" must be good. And there is definite fear that China would be overtaking the US in future world stage. Hostilities bordering on racism is spread by politicians and media that create fear through issues such as "Chinese using all the oil thus the prices went up", "Chinese eating all the food thus the food prices went up".
I feel that some Chinese might be overly proud and show it inappropriately, but overall I believe China, through the Olympics, is trying to open her doors. The worse the West can do is criticize everything and raise the defensive walls of the Chinese. The best outcome is co-operation between the West and China, as they depend on each other for growth.
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To me, this is one of the more stupid comments posted on this blog, if not the rudest...
"It doesn't matter how much you hate China and Chinese, we are destined to be stronger and stronger, we will disappoint you, I feel sorry for you again..." (fairreport)
Obviously, Mr. fairreport is not able to (or in the position to) judge whether someone else loves or hates China. He can not even objectively conclude whether he himself is patriotic or otherwise, because we human, both from the east and west, judge virtues based by actions, not by words. Adolf Hitler loves Germany, too.
Moving one, I don't see any logical link between someone's hatred towards China and Mr. fairreport's self-appointed representation of China(or all Chinese people). In plain English for you, Mr. fairreport, you don't have any rights to represent all the Chinese, even if Mr. James really hates China.
And who is 'we' in this sentence -- 'we are destined to be stronger and stronger, we will disappoint you'?
Is it 1.3 billion Chinese plus Mr. fairreport, a British tax payer and property owner, enjoying all British social benefits?
And how does Mr. fairreport plan to dissapoint us then? By being even more rude towards James? By going back to China to make the country even stronger? Or by paying more tax to Britain?
Feeling sorry for Mr. fairreport? I really am.
Being a financial worker, obviously does guarantee one's logical capability. Naming oneself 'fairreport' surely is the poorest attempt of self claimed neutrality.
By the way, I am a Chinese citizen. Does my comment towards Mr. fairreport make me an enemy of China or just of Mr. fairreport?
I can only represent myself to express my sorrow to Mr. James for the rudeness of a countryman. Please do believe, we are not all like that.
Mr. fairreport, you can choose to believe I am a part of an even bigger conspiracy. Do I care?
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Sorry, I meant " Being a financial worker, obviously does NOT guarantee one's logical capability. Naming oneself 'fairreport' surely is the poorest attempt of self claimed neutrality."
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To LONDONLURKER,
You're the one who is obviously excessively patriotic and nationalistic!
My message to you, and young chinese nationals like you is: 'made in China' is really NOTHING to be proud of!! It is just silly. The reality is that the west's been successfully utilizing China as a factory to produce their design, their ideas, and the west get the most out it. China ends up hugely polluting itself, exploiting its cheap labor and so on. It's so sad for you to be that arrogant to an ordinary westerner's comment. You are among many others in China and overseas just too easily offended by other people. Remember, the more easily you get offended, that means the weaker you really are!
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To Londonlurker and my chinese compatriots like you:
In addition, Your misunderstanding of wayjarth's point is just embarrassing! The west has 'value' and 'quality' to offer.that's why people including chinese proud of owning German cars, italian or french fashion goods. They like to watch American movies and go overseas study and work. No matter you like it or not, you gotta accept the reality that China has no real value and quality to offer to the world at this point of time. China's making progress. but still a long way to go. Japan and Korea are doing well. China should really learn from them. Just ask youself, can you name any chinese corporation that is not state-owned is equivalent to Japan's Toyato or Sony, and Korea's Samsung and LG? You have nothing to be proud of!
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Why are the Chinese are so proud and nationalistic?
"We founded and built this country."
"We fought many wars to make this country great."
"This country is made for you and me."
They are not Chinese sayings but the Chinese can say the samething for their country, since these sayings are used in the west to back up their sense of pride.
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to tx1007 #174,
To be like Japan and S. Korea, you mean like being a SAR nation of the US?
You want China to be a running dog of the west or you just want China to kowtow to all the western countries?
No thanks, we rather work hard for ourselves and for our gov't owned companies.
Yes we make junk for the rest of the world, we make a dirty mess doing it, but at less we have food to eat and we now live better not like the west but still better.
Oh, about the western cars and all those high end stuffs, we make a lot of them and now we have money to buy them. What's wrong with that?
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tx1007 post 174
I agree with you that China has not got many (or any) world class private (or state owned) enterprises.
But lets face it, why should a company that focuses on internal market spend too much energy building international reputation if their current market is still expanding?
The export oriented companies are mostly suppliers of outsourcing companies, their history is ususally short, (mostly under 20 years I would imagine), the original managements are mostly not highly educated.
Some enterprises have showed their ambition in internationalisation. However they lack of experties in international marketing and their enterprise culture are not fit for international competition yet. So, so far I haven't seen any Chinese enterprises achieving anywhere close to world-class yet. I don't think they are ready for it to be honest.
However Chinese enterprises time will come. I have no doubt in it, because I have seen so so so many successful Chinese entrepreneurs, in their 30s and 40s, with world class enterprise dreams in their hearts.
Don't be so pessimistic about China, because most people in this country have a much more positive attitute about it.
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169 wangyiwei
Hey I think you are a bit too harsh to Mr. Fairreport, although I do agree with what you siad.
The fact that some of my fellow oversea Chinese can act totally irrationally with the slightest critism towards Chinese (individually or with a bit of generalisation) is truely a pity. They are like a bag of firecrackers ready to explode with aslightest sparkle.
I have seen a few times oversea chinese individuals' exploded in anger over small things. And I guess the reason behind such anger is that we do, unfortunately, often feel being discriminated in our hosting countries. We do, especially mentally, live a harder life abroad than at home, because we are Chinese, and we are different.
Sometimes the fact that I do not fit into many people's expectation of Chinese people, as a surpressed person who are grateful of getting out of a communism regime, also bring me trouble and pressure.
People thought I was brain washed or from a corrupted family. I am not neither, and I have always being proud of myself as an independent thinker. So I do, every now and then, feel insulted by the friendly western people who I met. I am sure many Chinese people visiting James' blog would have my experience.
I hope the people who think we are oversensitive understand that there is actually good reasons for our sometimes over-sensitive reactions, eventhough they are not the most appropriate at times.
I also hope the non-Chinese people using this blog could look at your messages and ask yourselves, could they possibly be insulting? Of course, that is if you do want to communicate, not to give out.
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To tx1007's comments 173,174:
pls don't be so judgmental. I think you are trying to protect the image of China by criticizing those fellow countryman who appear to be 'nationalistic'. It's another sort of nationalistic as well.
I believe you jumped to the conclusion too fast and is nationalistic even more than me., so much so that you start attacking your own people. 'In order not to lose face one can do pretty much anything 'is one of the biggest flaws of Chinese, I have to say this out loud.
What I meant was that materialism is in no way equal to real value. So "Italian fashion brands, German cars, etc" have nothing to do with what the west is to offer.
And even they can offer values to other societies, where is the justification that others have to accept? Other countries can't have value system of their own?
They always say that their value system is better because of pluralism and of great tolerance to disagreement, yet they never stop trying to eliminate other systems. I sense hypocrisy and irony somewhere.
I remember there is a scence in Revenge of the Sith:
Darth Vader: if you are not with me, then you are my enemy.
Obi-wan:Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
What's the underlying Chinese values? Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddism. None of them deals in absolutes. What's the western value? Christianity. One god, one truth.
Think about it, would you?
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To tx1007's comments 173,174:
In addition as well, you are embarrassing yourself. Only because China is still economically weak, so Chinese have nothing to be proud of? How much more material can you be? Where is all the spiritual stuff? We have no history to be proud of? No culture to be proud of? No good people to be proud of?
DON'T make it sound like one should be ashamed to be proud of one's own country, ok? This is pure shameful.
And who said I'm nationalistic? I believe I can be my own judge, that I'm internationalized and respect other people and other values. I always hope different value systems can co-exist. That's why I go against those who try to impose their opinion to others.
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baysidetina (comment 179),
If Mr. fairreport could take my words, then too bad for him. This is the world he has to live with.
What you expressed is a general problem for everyone everywhere. Nothing to do with one's nationality and location.
If one feels insulted, the right thing to do is to speak out. Complain to the person in question directly. The wrong way, (that is Mr. fairreport's approach) is to take it to the national level and generalize a small little personal issue to a problem between nations.
If a grown-up can not take the cold world whe he/she is outside its nation, then grow up.
By the way, I don't think I qualify to be a 'over sensitive Chinese'. So please take me out of your 'we' list as well.
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Firstly, to Objection2it, pls read my words carefully! I did not ever say China is 'to be like Japan and S Korea". I was saying 'China should LEARN from Japan and S Korea'. Having said that, I am not just saying China should learn from Japan and S Korea about how to build strong corporation. But also, more importantly, the Chinese should learn from the Japanese and the Korean in terms of team spirit and discipline. (at this point, I bet Baysidetina should understand me and agree with me, as I can feel from the comment he/she is sort of on the same page with me.) True, Japan and S Korea is strategiclly inferior to U.S. and more often seek for help from U.S. However, essentially, it is not in their will. This is very complex issue. I may leave it here. Again, all I was saying is 'Learning team spirit and discipline from the Northeastern neighbour", which will only do good.
To Baysidetina, I am too a self-claimed independent thinker. And I couldn't even respect your position much more! My experience overseas is quite similar to yours too. But read my NO.166 Comment again, and especially check out that website : www.dajun.com.cn. and http://www.dajun.com.cn/wenji0710.htm
I admit that I am sort of pessimistic about some things happening in China at the moment. From 2008 to 2012 it's gonna be very crucial period for China's development. If she couldn't make it, the 30yrs of reform would simply be a flash in pan!
To Londonlurker, I totally understand your anger. But, again, I gotta point out that I was not trying to 'protect the images of China by criticizing fellow countrymen', and I was not trying to 'attack' you. First of all, it is funny you said that. I never thought about 'protecting China's image'. It never went across my mind. I believe a country or nation's image is not something one individual can simply go and protect or damage. Sociologically speaking, the image of a nation is built up by the actions of its very own people and reflected upon others' mind. in this very complex process, all sorts of distortions (typically stereotyping) are possible. Secondly, I was criticizing you, not attacking you, let alone my 'own people'. There is crystal clear definition between ' you' and 'my own people'. I think you made the same mistake as Fairreport did as he/she was making comments as if s/he was on behalf of all the Chinese people of 1.3 billion. I aggree with wangyiwei, by the way. Pls do not get too offended by such a normality in a discussion board.
By reducing western value to Christianity, and reducing Christianity to 'one GOD, one truth', you reduce your possibility of obtaining adequate understanding of western civilization. At the same time, I don't see you know much about Chinese civilization either. Don't GET ME WRONG! I'm not saying I am the person who knows all. But one thing I am pretty sure, the civilizations of the west and the east are not that simple!
Your rhetorical questions such as : why do other non-western societies have to accept western values and why can they have their own? I have to say, are so absurd. Nobody is saying non-western societies have to accept western values, and they are not allowed to have their own value system. In fact, it is natural thing that every single society must have their own value systems. It is something inherent! Non-western societies can certainly reject to accept western values. But it's not that simply. 'German cars, french and Italian fashion, American pop culture' metioned by wayjayth and me are the analogy, the symbols that embody the modern western values. They are the part of 'soft power', if you like. All I was saying is that China still has a long way to go before she could enjoy that kind of soft power, considering she is still struggling with buidling her hard power.
And on your argument, saying that the west's always trying to destroy other cultures or things like that. It's just too simplistic! The same logic behind this argument can be used by the west to criticize China, such as on the issue of Tibet. of Han Chinese treating minority groups in China. Chinese attitude towards African people (if you could forget about CCP propaganda, you would undstand)
PLS read my no.166 comment if you have patience, it's natural action taken by any superior power to try to maintain its position by surpressing the inferiors, consciously or subconsciouly. The west is just doing that. To turn the table, China has to have comprehensive strength (soft and hard power) that is matchable to the west. One has to admit, Japan's doing very well in terms of building its soft power based on its strong hard power. They are successfully selling their culture to the west. There are many examples, such as Japanese cartoon and expensive cuisine (in the west, people mainly take japanese cuisine as a proper and high-end dinner, the chinese as a lunch box)
Anyway, again, suggest you to check out this website www. dajun.com.cn and http://www.dajun.com.cn/wenji0710.htm
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In addition, this is purely your misinterpretation that I was saying that the Chinese people have nothing to be proud of. I never said that and I never thought about that. (if you like, you can go back and check my comment again.) To be proud of one's own country is purely personal matter. Some people are, some people not. I have nothing to say about it. The thing is I have to say is, today, after 30yrs of reform, many Chinese especially its young generation have become too proud and intoxicated in the myth that China is destined to be the next superpower in this century. This is the myth that is delicately puffed up by the western elites (pefect examples could be putting 'China Miracle' story on the cover of the mainstream magazines.) Sadly, that myth is echoed among many Chinese elites and consequently would mislead them towards inadequate judgement of the reality. All I want to see is some smart people can stand out and pour cold water on these 'heated heads' . Professor Lang Xianping is certainly among the few who dare to criticize the mainstream.
Londonlurker, to be honest, you don't have to find pride in the nation's achievement, (be in the past or the present )to be a proud Chinese studying or working in London. There are many other minority people living in London who are very proud despite the fact they are from Africa or India, or somewhere else. It is the same in here Australia. Ultimately, you are proud because of you,not only of your country. You are proud because of your achievement, your ability, an your contribution to your community and so forth.
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To tx1007:
Ok, sorry that I have misjudged your motive.
but, "You're the one who is obviously excessively patriotic and nationalistic! " isn't something nice to say, and to stereotype others ("To Londonlurker and my chinese compatriots like you") isn't nice either. You will have to live with my anger and misjudge.
If you think that one shouldn't say 'we' when speaks out for one can only represent himself/herself, then why do I have to go with a pack? I'm also an independent thinker and express my own opinions. And what's wrong with 'we'? people here speak out as a Chinese, not as a Joe or Jane. Have you ever heard the song 'we are the champions'? By your logic, the song has to be 'I'm the champion', is it? This is a pointless argument.
If you argue 'German cars, french and Italian fashion, American pop culture' is analogy, why can't 'one god, one truth' be? You simplify my argument by saying I'm simplifying the reality? How convenient.
Why always the double standard?
Btw, this is a blog discussion. People speaks in abstraction, simpification, irrantionality and emotion. If you really want to have a conversation, you wouldn't just dismiss others' opinions by those reasons.
last thing, don't speak as if you are the ONLY chinese who realises China's problems. 'China still has a long way to go before she could enjoy that kind of soft power.' I'm fine with this cheesy line, but don't use it as a reason to criticise Chinese being proud of their own country.
Do WE even need a reason to be proud?
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"And on your argument, saying that the west's always trying to destroy other cultures or things like that. It's just too simplistic! The same logic behind this argument can be used by the west to criticize China, such as on the issue of Tibet. of Han Chinese treating minority groups in China."
What logic?? Do you imply that Chinese is trying to destroy Tibetan culture or supressing minority groups? While there are plenty of evidences disprove this stupid argument, there is an obvious logic issue need to be pointed out: The west always want to justify the Tibet cause by saying that culture should be preserved and protected, whilst they have never stop trying to westernize China and make Chinese moving away from their own culture. What is this? Only Tibetan culture is culture, and Chinese culture is not? why don't they keep italian fashion and german cars to themselve?
In my worst dream, they just want to 'protect' Tibet as a museum so can display romantic fantasy of their imagination. And China? to them, just a bunch of brainwashed machines that should be ashamed into submission and make cheap products forever.
Please let's hope it's not true.
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To tx1007:
I've read your comment No.166. I'm fine with those facts, and you know what, I knew them already. Please don't assume that the younger generation are 'CCP-educated', 'nationalistic' simpletons, and please don't try lecturing us on that ground.
All the problems we (yes, 'we' against, if not speak out as a Chinese, why come here? otherwise I'd rather discuss the same issues at sina or renmin forum in chinese. We come to give our chinese perspectives to some good people from the west) have now, you think are all caused by ourselves? You think the west wasn't involved to make it happen and make it worse? You think the western countries weren't trying to push boundaries for the sake of their own interests? You think until we again become strong enough, we should just go invisible and silent without fighting back? You think this kind of slave-ish ostrich-like mentality will get China through the difficult time ahead?
If we can't be confident and mentally strong, how can the country resurrect? If we have to live in shame and submisson and can't be proud of our own country, how can our culture survive? If we are not to preserve our own values, how can we reject the bad and keep the good from the west?
This is not ego, not over-sensitive, not nationalism, not out of humiliation, but consciousness.
If you say we need to learn many things from the west, I say of course. If you say China isn't strong enough, I say totally. But if you say we shouldn't be proud of ourselves, I say no way. We can learn, change, improve, and be proud all at the same time.
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btw, I don't think it's true that Chinese are not used to criticism, but rather, westerners are not used to Chinese arguing back. Because we were invisible and silent.
If any westerner wants to do good to China truly, stop giving relentless criticism, give advice, money, or helping hands instead. Talk is just cheap.
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james - thanks for such a fair reporting.
As a Tibetan, I feel that China has every reason to be angry with the West who took advantage of it when they were weak. When the strong abuses the weak, it creates problems. At the same time I'd ask my fellow Chinese commentors on this blog about their feelings of the Tibetans. Communist Chinese regime has ruled Tibet with a brutal hand since its occupation in 1950 and has suppressed, tortured, imprisoned and killed Tibetans. Tibetans revere their religious leader Dalai Lama. Respecting your teacher is the essence of Buddhism, and Dalai Lama is the highest teacher with his message of peace, non-violence and compassion. But Tibetans and specially those entering monasteries have to denounce the Dalai Lama, spit on his picture. Such an act would be sacrilegious for any Tibetan. Treated as 2nd class citizens in their own land, no religious freedom and the list goes on and on. Of course the Chinese government propaganda has taught the Chinese citizens that the majority of the Tibetans like the Chinese government. If China has nothing to hide and is truthful then why doesn't it allow independent fact finding groups such as Amnesty International, International Court of Justice or some third party organization to find out the facts.
China is an ancient nation with great history and culture. And so is Tibet with its own great history and culture. Chinese people are hardworking people. Chinese and Tibetans have suffered for way too long. The few Chinese that are benefiting from this economic boom in China should look from a wider perspective and realize that the their fellow brothers and sisters (about 800 million) living in the poor rural areas are suffering more than before. They are poorer than before.
VancouverRaine post 168 talks about "Now Chinese children have so much to eat obesity is a problem, and every child is able to go to university." Are you kidding me?
And last but not least ---
WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT RESPECT THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS OF ITS OWN PEOPLE, LET ALONE PEOPLE OF OTHER AREAS THAT IT OCCUPIED. WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT CAN MASSACRE ITS OWN CITIZENS INCLUDING YOUTHS AS IN TIANANMEN SQUARE IN 1989. WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT CAN PRODUCE A HUMAN ORGAN IN TWO WEEKS FOR ANYBODY - WHY ??? BECAUSE IT CAN TAKE AS MANY AS IT WANTS FROM THE PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE THAT INCLUDE HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS, FALUN GONGS ETC.
WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT THREATENS ANYONE WHO OPPOSES THE VIEWS OF THE GOVERNMENT (OF COURSE NO GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD IS PERFECT, BUT CITIZENS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO CRITIZE THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD LISTEN TO THEIR CITIZENS). WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BRAINWASHED ITS PEOPLE SO MUCH TO THE EXTENT THAT NONE OF THE STUDENTS AT BEIJING UNIVERSITY KNOWS THE TIANANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE. WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT RESPECT THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, THE FREEDOM OF PRESS, THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.
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To peace_4_all No.189:
I believe I can understand your feeling. "Tibetans and specially those entering monasteries have to denounce the Dalai Lama, spit on his picture." I've also heard this from various sources, including sina forum, and it saddens me. Anyone being treated like that would feel outraged. I'm pretty sure there are also many other things that CCP officials are doing wrong to Tibetans, as they do to Hans as well.
I don't really think the majority of the Tibetans like the Chinese government, since the majority of the rest of the Chinese aren't that happy with the government either. (Have you met anyone really like their own government, eastern or western? I haven't.) And I don't think the government taught me to think that way. (even if so, would anyone believe?) All I have taught is that 56 ethnic groups are all brothers and sisters and we are one family. Believe it or not.
Many things you've said, although arguable, are not too far from the truth. But here is one I have quite some problem with:"WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BRAINWASHED ITS PEOPLE SO MUCH TO THE EXTENT THAT NONE OF THE STUDENTS AT BEIJING UNIVERSITY KNOWS THE TIANANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE."
I was born in 1980s, graduated from Beijing University and I know quite a bit about it. I even downloaded a documentary about tianmen square massacre 1989 (made by westerners) from the university intranet. And natually I ain't the only one. So don't assume too much about CCP's brainwashing power. We are people, not machines. We more or less can figure out what kind of information is valid. (btw, my view of 1989 is probably quite different from most of westerners. it's natural since i look from inside.)
CCP government is in no way doing a good job. But it's our government. It's barely a solution just to criticise it without doing anything to make it better. If you truly think you are part of the chinese family, then get involved in the social process. It's easier to throw rocks at a house than building one.
When I was in Beijing University. I had a professor teaching my class who also spent half of his time in Tibet(teaching computer science). One of my college roomates who joined Fangzheng company (belong to Beijing University) did his college final project on developing Tibetan input method for windows systems. So in my experience, I don't think the government is trying to treat Tibetans as second-class citizens. Rather, Tibetans' welfare has never gone off the priority list. Most of the time, you just get corrupted local officials that can't do their job properly.
You may complain about Han culture tainting Tibetan culture, but please look at what the west is doing to the rest of the world. No society is living in isolation anymore. Things change. Culture evolves. If you think Tibet region should be left alone, then why complaining about living in the poor rural areas? Isn't that supposed to be in this logic? There were about 150 million Tibetan in 1950s (if I'm not remembering it wrong) and now 800 million(with all the killing by CCP these years), how to grow your economy and feed the people without dealing with other culture and societies? I agree that both sides 'have suffered for way too long. ' So why not put differences aside and work together?
Just some of my personal opinions. Hope you find it helpful.
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To wangyiwei,
Please don't pretend to be a Chinese, if you are Chinese, u know I can not take any social benefits, this is on my Visa, do you have one like this?
I am not complaining, this is fair as I am not a British.
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To tx1007, peace_4_all and wangyiwei:
My hat off to all of you!!! You have provided lucid, reflective, honest comments. I respect all of your comments! People like you make the world more peaceful.
To others who might disagree:
I believe to gain true respect from others one has to be humble and self-reflect not through emotional, superficial wisecracks. Emotions disturb fair judgement.
I believe to build a strong nation, the first thing is to find out the underlying problems and be honest about it. Self assurance comes after that.
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To tx1007:
You have written the most intelligent, balanced, well-thought through, and scholarly piece of essay in explaning what it means to be Chinese. It is one of a perspective from afar, of seeing the complexity of modern China and its place in the world. As the saying goes, some see a tree and others see a forest when given equal opportunity to make ones own judgement. Most of the bloggers from China write in rechtoric, while it sounds good but means very little. With further education and extensive exposure to Western philosophy - formation of humanism through Christianity that all men are equal, that perhaps these Chinese will not see China and the West in black vs. white. At present, this fermenting of nationalism in China is troubling as it may lead China into militarism with severe consequence to its stability. As you said, pride is built on one's achievement over time and is not a requisite or platform for loyalty for ones' country or family. Nationalism is based on hatred of others and the need to demonise outsiders just as the Nazi regime in WWII Germany. To criticise one's own family members or country is not disloyalty, especially when the rulers of a nation or family member is unwilling to listen. In open societies, it is the duty of citizens to criticise the government. As American Chinese, I let my elected officials know when I disagree with certain policy, e.g. Bush's foreign policy mistakes. As for loyalty to family members, Chinese see it differently. Unquestioning loyalty to family and the clan, including business connections make for a corrupt society. A case in the U.S., a murderer nick-named UniBomber, because of his preference for sending bombs to professors, was turned in to authority by his own brother. The brother had put his conscience above and beyond his loyalty to his murderous flesh and blood. The brother explained that it was wrenching, soul searching and sad decision he had to make. He embraced his brother the murderer, all the same by attending the trial every day and participated in negotiation with the government to spare his brother from death row.
I hope young Chinese can learn to weigh national and personal situations through a prism instead of through the opening of a well like the frog who lives in a well.
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Fairreport wrote, 'It is the West (that) taught us money's more important than anything else."
Are you joking? Who invented money please? Why are Chinese naturally good mathmaticians? Because of thousands of years of trading that's why.
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To democracy101,
Thanks for your 'praise'. hahaha... but i think it's a little bit too much.
I read your comments posted on other occasions. So sort of get where you're coming from, your overall thinking ground, if you like.
You seem to be very enthusiastic about what the west, especially Anglo-Saxon nations has done to the world and what they have to offer the world.
But I wonder how subtle and delicate racial discrimination against Asian Americans works in the States.
check out this webste if you like http://modelminority.com/
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to Senlin no.195,
Fairreport wasn't joking, currency is a chinese invention, but materialism isn't. You want to play with concepts?
"Why are Chinese naturally good mathmaticians? Because of thousands of years of trading that's why. " Now you are joking. Who told you chinese are natually good at math? Most of chinese students are afraid of modern math because it's too difficult. Go ask around.
If you are talking about Arithmetic, it still has more to do with the fact that chinese count numbers in one syllable than trading business. Confucian teaching always regards money is much less important than spiritual well-being. Go read the Analect yourself.
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response to post 190 londonlurker
first of all, thank you for your understanding and your fairness in commenting. i do wish you make a few more comments.
""""But here is one I have quite some problem with:"WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BRAINWASHED ITS PEOPLE SO MUCH TO THE EXTENT THAT NONE OF THE STUDENTS AT BEIJING UNIVERSITY KNOWS THE TIANANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE. I was born in 1980s, graduated from Beijing University and I know quite a bit about it.""""""
Yes - you would know about it because you were in the university at the time. I'm talking about kids born around the time of Tiananmen Square massacre who would be in the university now. I hope you will educate them about this historic event where so many Chinese gave their lives fighting against corruption, injustice and poverty.
""""""CCP government is in no way doing a good job. But it's our government. It's barely a solution just to criticise it without doing anything to make it better. If you truly think you are part of the chinese family, then get involved in the social process. It's easier to throw rocks at a house than building one.""""""""
I think there is quite a lot that can be done individually or as a group. One of the greatest step towards stability in my mind is coming from Dalai Lama with his middle-way approach. He is only asking for the true autonomy as actually written in the constitution. This will allow Tibetans to preserve their culture, language, religion, environment, literature, etc. Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. Buddhism is a huge part of a Tibetan's life, our day starts and ends with it. Respecting and learning from your teachers is the essence of Buddhism.
"""""So in my experience, I don't think the government is trying to treat Tibetans as second-class citizens. Rather, Tibetans' welfare has never gone off the priority list. Most of the time, you just get corrupted local officials that can't do their job properly."""""
Tibetans are treated as 2nd class - there is no doubt in that. They are looked down upon as barbaric and dirty. We Tibetans are very religious. Materially we are very much behind the West and China. But I think spiritually we are quite advanced. Tibet has the best resource in the "understanding of the mind" from a Buddhist perspective. So we can be of benefit to each other - one side materially and the other side spiritually. You need both in life.
I'm sure you have read government reports of huge sums of money allocated for Tibet. In reality, they go to the pockets of Chinese officials (local). I don't think its that difficult to look into such corruption if one makes an effort. Instead the government pours huge sums of money in spying, surveillances and military.
"""""You may complain about Han culture tainting Tibetan culture, but please look at what the west is doing to the rest of the world. No society is living in isolation anymore. Things change. Culture evolves.""""
West does not impose upon others. I think that's the major difference. and I think that is an important difference. I agree with you that things change and culture evolves. But it should not happen through imposition, threat and abuse.
""""There were about 150 million Tibetan in 1950s (if I'm not remembering it wrong) and now 800 million(with all the killing by CCP these years), how to grow your economy and feed the people without dealing with other culture and societies?""""
The figures are off the mark. There were more than 6 million Tibetans before the Chinese communist invasion in 1950. Now there is less than 6 million Tibetans. The "800 million brothers and sisters" was a reference to the Chinese rural population. The economic boom has only benefited the cities while the poor becomes poorer.
""""So why not put differences aside and work together?"""""
I've nothing against the Chinese citizens. Dalai Lama has always said that we are neighbors and have to live side by side forever.
In the end, thank you again for your opinion
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This is a very informative article which nicely serves facts that every westerner should realize when they attempt to analyze China. As a frequent visitor to China - going again in September, O8 for the third time in less than a year, I can tell you that the Chinese people are very welcoming and eager to assist guests visiting their country. That has always been my experience. Much of that has to do with the attitude of respect that I show to the average person. The Chinese have a deep culture of showing respect for seniors. As a baby boomer with greying hair, I have been treated kindly and with care. Anyone attempting to understand China must realize that in a lifetime it would be difficult to unravel all of the mysteries of the Chinese mindset.
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Londonlurker: Why do you assume that you must know more about China and Chinese people than a foreigner simply because you are Chinese? Perhaps some westerners have lived and travelled extensively in China. Perhaps some westerners have married into a Chinese family and speak the language fluently? Please compare this with most Chinese people on here who have only ever lived in one Chinese city (living a privileged existence), then come to the west to look for a job (well pay for a Masters to get the visa first) whilst being surrounded by Chinese people and eating Chinese food.
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To peace_4_all no.198:
thank you for your reply. glad that we can have a real discuss here. :)
I will give my thoughts on your comments, hoping for for more good communication.
"Yes - you would know about it because you were in the university at the time. I'm talking about kids born around the time of Tiananmen Square massacre who would be in the university now. I hope you will educate them about this historic event where so many Chinese gave their lives fighting against corruption, injustice and poverty."
I was in primary school in 1989 and kids in university nowadays are not that much younger than me. The tiananmen massacre is one of the biggest international stories (dare I say not so fairly reported), yet not quite the case nationally. I'm not suggesting that it's insignificant, it's just that most ordinary Chinese aren't that politically sensitive. Their visions are narrowed to their own lifes. They care more about living standards than the political movements. Just like in the west, most people won't bother to learn the history of Tibet and China. Same kind of ignorance.
Sometimes young people will get to see news talking about 1989 from news (Jun.4 each year, hong kong and taiwan will hold memorial services, and the news atually gets around) and also posts in online forums (I post them ocassionally). But when they ask their parents, some have already forgotten what it was all about, especially those who don't live in Beijing(of course CCP played a big role to downplay the event). Some will just tell their kids that it's not important, especially those who are not interested in politics and only want their kids to study hard. Only those children who really want to know the whole story will pursue it, and they will get the info anyways. (like me)
I've been talking to many people (young and old) and asking their views about 1989. If you believe me, I can tell you that most people I've talked to, share a same view - it had to be done that way.
It sounds great when the tiananmen event is described as people fighting against corruption, injustice and poverty. But it's not the whole truth. Many people who were fighting had their own agenda, had their own interests, and themselves corrupted in mind. Most of the leaders of the movement now live happily in the US of A. You ought to wonder why. And if you get to know why, your view will probably change a bit. But until you do find out, I will say no more on this issue.
“I think there is quite a lot that can be done individually or as a group. One of the greatest step towards stability in my mind is coming from Dalai Lama with his middle-way approach. He is only asking for the true autonomy as actually written in the constitution. This will allow Tibetans to preserve their culture, language, religion, environment, literature, etc. Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. Buddhism is a huge part of a Tibetan's life, our day starts and ends with it. Respecting and learning from your teachers is the essence of Buddhism.”
I'm not against Dalai Lama in any way. The CCP propaganda is obviously stupid. My suggestoin is that Tibetans should try winning over the hearts of ordinary Han people, since giving China a bad PR is doing the opposite. It's like inviting outsiders home to humiliate your own family members. Even you have a right cause, it's not wise to do thing like that. My friends and netizens I know, whoever have been to Tibet, will tell me that Tibetans are wonderful people. They are friendly and happy. Then people like me (never been to Tibet) will have a hard time to imagine why Tibetan don't like Hans. If ordinary Tibetans are being suppressed by Hans, why they are friendly and happy? I suppose this will also puzzle quite a lot of other Hans. That's probably also the reason when Tibetans protest on an international stage, the rest of Chinese people got confused and angry.
"Tibetans are treated as 2nd class - there is no doubt in that. They are looked down upon as barbaric and dirty. We Tibetans are very religious. Materially we are very much behind the West and China. But I think spiritually we are quite advanced. Tibet has the best resource in the "understanding of the mind" from a Buddhist perspective. So we can be of benefit to each other - one side materially and the other side spiritually. You need both in life."
Most Chinese who have never been to Tibet will at least know one thing about Tibetans, that Tibetans are deeply religous. I'm not sure who are 'they' that you were refering to. But I can tell you that most Chinese won't think that way. CCP media will forever only show how good China is, and how good its people are. Do you think they will portrait one of the 56 ethnic groups is barbaric and dirty? So again, I would imagine there must be some kind of misunderstanding.
"I'm sure you have read government reports of huge sums of money allocated for Tibet. In reality, they go to the pockets of Chinese officials (local). I don't think its that difficult to look into such corruption if one makes an effort. Instead the government pours huge sums of money in spying, surveillances and military."
I don't get to read government reports. There are few available and people don't trust them. But I do believe you that corruption will take most of the government funds away. I have no idea about spying, surveillances and military. No access to such info. Do you?
“West does not impose upon others. I think that's the major difference. and I think that is an important difference. I agree with you that things change and culture evolves. But it should not happen through imposition, threat and abuse.”
I'm against imposition just like you. And I feel the west is doing it. Look at Iraq.
"The figures are off the mark. There were more than 6 million Tibetans before the Chinese communist invasion in 1950. Now there is less than 6 million Tibetans. The "800 million brothers and sisters" was a reference to the Chinese rural population. The economic boom has only benefited the cities while the poor becomes poorer."
Sorry about that. I'm not quite sensitive with the figures. I've only heard from an online post that the Tibetan population are sth like 4 times more than before. So I made a calculation there. 6 million does make more sense.
I'm not sure about "800 million" chinese rural population, an agriculture country with 1.3 b people should have more than that I suppose?
"The economic boom has only benefited the cities while the poor becomes poorer."
I think is a bit of exaggeration. It can be very true in some regions but not quite sure if it's so in general.
"I've nothing against the Chinese citizens. Dalai Lama has always said that we are neighbors and have to live side by side forever."
I appreciate the kindess.
A small thought came to mind: Dalai Lama has publicly said that he is for the unity of China, then why said Tibetans are Chinese citizens are neighbors rather than families? just wondering...
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tx1007:
You have given the perspective of someone who sees both sides of the arguement, and of the place of Chinese in an increasingly complex world, I could not have said it better.
As to your statement:
1) You seem to be very enthusiastic about what the west, especially Anglo-Saxon nations has done to the world and what they have to offer the world.
No, I am not enthusiastic about the current climate change caused by too much pollution. The West must take responsibility in making the change, and hopefully India and China the two fast developing nations would follow. This is a blog, narrow and focused on the subject, and therefore one has little space or time to write about a very complex issue between East and West. As to the harm of European colonism and conquest in Africa and the rest of the world, it was one of exploitation and degradation to the natives of the land. On balance, colonism has also left other positive marks, such as western science, medicine, governmental administration, common law, humanism, economy, etc., etc. The natives from under developed societies had jumped milleniums in their standard of living. The success stories of having improved the standard of living of the natives should go hand in hand with the past mistreatment of the natives in historic perspective. I don't suppose I have to give you the specific examples because of short of time. However, I agree that the aboriginese of Australia certainly needs a lot more help to reclaim their ancient pride without having to return ti live on a day-to-day existence kind of life as freed people. The Eskimo's of Canada and Alaska are benefiting from Western technology, snowmobiles instead of sleighs drawn by dogs, heated homes instead of igloos, mordern health care to none. The more important question is how does one as a people live a modern live and yet retain their native identity. To continue to cast blame on the Europeans is to allow paralysis to take place over self-improvement and a new self-identity as a people. This is the issue facing Chinese today, how do they embrace all the good western technology and investions and philosophy have to offer and yet be able to embrace what is good about Chinese culture. Chinese in U.S., Britain, Australia, etc. have found a comfortable place in their adopted societies while at the same time have the freedo to embrace their cultural identities. The way to integrate or reject the two is a very very long process. Chinese respect for authority sometimes make us timid to stand up for ourselves, Chinese culture of family loyalty makes for difficulty within the family after marriage to outsiders, or even within the clan which inevidtably becomes too large to give loyalty. Chinese family is fraught with tension. If Chinese can see individual identity as separate from group identity, they will be able to establish separate thinking, loyalty, and tolerance for people who are not member of a clan. There are many societies in the world that are troubled with rampant corruption, Indonesia, Malaya, Saudi Arabia and in this case China, basically all societies where loyalty to the group superceeds individual identity. Islamic identity is such, leading to much blood shed lately. Chinese must learn to be individuals first, but in China there is still much pressure for group identity and group think. The Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen Squre incidence is very much the result of group identity and group think in action, which had resulted in calamatous consequence.
2) But I wonder how subtle and delicate racial discrimination against Asian Americans works in the States.
I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but here is my explanation.
I come from a long line of Chinese immigrants to America back from 1870's (estimate), starting with my grandfather and then my father. I ended up being born and raised in China because of circumstances of WWII, as the family got stuck in Hong Kong when the Japanese arrived. I myself have been living in U.S. for over 40 years, having experienced discrimination personally. My family history was one of hard workd amongst wide spread racism of the time in U.S. and yet have succeeded. I have observed the progress our society has made in terms of tolerance of diversity, all due to the efforts of Dr. Martin L. King of bringing into America's consciousness of the degradation of blacks in the society. Asians and gays and females all started demaning their rights. America is quick to correct itself thanks to the freedom of the press and speech and the separation of power of the Federal government vs. the State. Subsequently, the Fed.'s anti-discrimination and racism laws had successful prosecuated institutions and individuals who commit racial crimes, e.g. Vincent Chin, a young man murdered in Dearborn, Michigan for having been mistaken as Japanese during a time when auto workers felt enormous pressure from Japanese auto makers in their job security. The jurors acquitted the murderers, but the FBI successfully prosecuted the case and the murderers were jailed. Now, many Asians are very successful in America in all areas of profession. If anything at all, there is a misconception that all Asians are model citizens, high achievers. Universities in major cities through out the country have a much higher of proportion of Asian students than the actual population make-up of Asians. UC - Berkeley, Yale, Harvard, MIT, Stanford are crowded with Asians students. My husband is a chemistry professor and his lab is 3/4 Chinese. Have I explanined enough of what it means to be Asian in U.S.? Is there random racism that we encounter occassionaly? Definitely yest, but one must remember those individual who shows such hatred most probably are having a hard time in life - the boss yelled at the employee, the employee goes home and kicks the dog. As long as our U.S. government has laws in books protecting minorities against racial hatred or discrimination, I am willing to forgive the past and live in the present and contribute to the greater good of this society by being engaged as a citizen.
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To Londonlurker: From your perspective, you have the best view of China. Have your views not been formed from a Chinese education and upbringing though? This is hard to recognise. Take a national from China who has lived in Britain for 30 years (longer than myself as a native British national). Their perspective on British culture and life is just as valid as the next person. Their views will often contain an insight which British people will not be able to access, simply because many have only ever seen things from a British perspective. Therefore, a person who has lived in two cultures is at a distinct advantage to comment on both cultures.
I congratulate you on your scholarship. My experience from meeting many young Chinese here is that they have come to study on the back of their parent’s wealth. I think you will find you are in the minority if you ask around. I often hear complaints from Chinese students that they do not get to know British life as they are surrounded by their Chinese classmates and life as they would in China. This is very much a missed opportunity and I think more needs to be done to integrate these young people into British life. Institutions such as Host make valuable contributions to this cause.
My original point was made on mathematics. Having seen the standard of mathematics (not just arithmetic) in both a British and Chinese classroom, I made a conclusion that Chinese were more gifted mathematicians and my explanation for this was the history of trading in your country (maybe my explanation is wrong and there is a different reason). However, the point really is that believing only a native can make valuable comments on their country is an out-dated view in a changing world.
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I am living in London and feel very very sad whenever I read James Reynolds' reports from China. I am not Chinese, but South Korean. I know many negative things in China, especially human rights etc., but the country has shown an amazing journey from poor to rich. Sadly, I have never seen any report of James positive. Is China such a bad and the Chinese are bad and ill-educated as he reported??? Why he cannot report a balanced view. I have read are the bad things. Every country has good and bad things and strong points and weak points. I know the fact China has been improved many many things. Why we cannot see the future rather than in the past or present. I do not mean we ignor our duty to improve human life. Please, James, think about that, at least, China has not or never tried to sell opium to her people or any other...
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To Senlin No.204
"From your perspective, you have the best view of China."
Please think more logically. "I think I know better than you" means "I have the best view of china"? This atually implies that you have the second best view. I'm sure you don't mean that?
Since this blog keeps deleting my replies to you. I won't reply much this time. But if you get to see this. I have to say, I didn't suggest your opinion is of no value. I only suggested that your opinion was incorrect. When I disagree, I just say so. You can check previous posts. I disagree with many chinese here as well.
It doesn't matter to me whether or not you are a foreigner.
I suspect that your think your perspective is different from me and therefore will be more close to the truth. Again, I will disagree.
Your experience only applies to the young chinese that go abroad after 2001. After 911, chinese students have been getting much less visas from US and therefore more of them come to UK. Comparing to US, scholarships provided by UK are next to none. So it's not hard to understand why you see that kind of students around. Do you get to blame some of them for having successful parents? What you see deceives you all the time. Hope you can be less judgmental next time.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.
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londonlurker ....
""""""My suggestoin is that Tibetans should try winning over the hearts of ordinary Han people, since giving China a bad PR is doing the opposite"""""""
Tibetans are not against Han people, they (at least the majority) are themselves suffering from the dictatorial regime of Communist party. I can tell you that Tibetans are against the Communist regime. After the earthquake in China, there was a big candle light vigil for the victims of the quake in the Tibetan communities. I've several Chinese friends here in United States.
"Winning over the hearts of ordinary Han people" would be difficult for the Tibetans living in Tibet because the government will never allow that. Many of the communist leaders in the past followed the old Maoist tactic of "divide and rule". That is the way to retain power for themselves.
As far as Tibetans outside Tibet, CCP will censor any news that brings such closeness. His Holiness has always talked about "Chinese brothers and sisters", that China has a "rich culture", about unity etc. I don't those talks are allowed in China. CCP should sit down and have a dialog with Dalai Lama instead of calling names and degrading him.
""""I'm against imposition just like you. And I feel the west is doing it. Look at Iraq."""""
Could you please explain that? Not that I'm in favor of this war in Iraq which was wrong. The initial support (in my opinion) arose from the 9/11 incident. Majority are now against the war. And we have 2 candidates who have different views of the troop pullout. There is debate about all the issues effecting the lives of people. That (i think) is the advantage of a democracy among many others.
"""""Then people like me (never been to Tibet) will have a hard time to imagine why Tibetan don't like Hans"""""
That's easy to explain with respect to "Tibetans " living Tibet. As I said before CCP is against Dalai Lama, meanwhile Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. So there are many policies that reflect this attitude.
"""""""said Tibetans are Chinese citizens are neighbors rather than families? just wondering..""""""
We can think of a gated community with several buildings. The largest building would be for Han of course. And we share the common park, benches, the water sprinklers, swings.
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To peace_4_all No.207:
"Tibetans are not against Han people, they (at least the majority) are themselves suffering from the dictatorial regime of Communist party. I can tell you that Tibetans are against the Communist regime. After the earthquake in China, there was a big candle light vigil for the victims of the quake in the Tibetan communities. I've several Chinese friends here in United States."
This is really difficult. Collectivistic value is a Han tradition. So the majority of Chinese (since Han is the majority) don't care that much about whether or not the government is going to be called 'dictatorial' by the west (not yet,but maybe in the future when democratic value grows more). It's 'people's republic'. CCP members are all come from normal people. Anyone can join, Tibetans or Hans. Since the so-called communism idealogy is dying. It's becoming only a special form of government. 'Communist' is not much more than a name tag.
Now everything is changing. Less and less young people join the party (I haven't and never will, also the absolute majority of college students), and to become government officials it's not compulsory anymore to be a party member. Constitutionally, however, the party and the people's government is still the same. So if you say 'against CCP regime', it can only mean you are against the government, which is the collective governing body that represents the people including yourself. It's still hard to seperate the people from CCP, and the CCP from the government. It's likely to be the case at least for a while. Therefore, it'd be better for Tibetans to go against CCP policies rather than going against CCP regime. It's illegal and normal people won't support such act. But to go against wrong policies is quite ok.
"CCP will censor any news that brings such closeness. His Holiness has always talked about "Chinese brothers and sisters", that China has a "rich culture", about unity etc. I don't those talks are allowed in China. CCP should sit down and have a dialog with Dalai Lama instead of calling names and degrading him."
I understand. But still, tactically it'd be better to do things more softly. Violence gets violence. Protects get defensive actions.
Also, to most Han chinese, buddism is about humbleness, compassion, non-voilence, and acceptance of suffering. If they see any buddists rioting or protesting, they will never believe what those buddists get to say. Culture difference?
"Could you please explain that? Not that I'm in favor of this war in Iraq which was wrong. The initial support (in my opinion) arose from the 9/11 incident. Majority are now against the war. And we have 2 candidates who have different views of the troop pullout. There is debate about all the issues effecting the lives of people. That (i think) is the advantage of a democracy among many others."
The west is continuously interfering other countries' internal affairs under the name of democray or human rights. It really doesn't matter whether it has a 'good' reason (turns out iraq has nothing to do with 911, not does it have the blamed weapons) or is a democratic decision by the people of the west. Why don't Iraqis have the right to decide their own fate? The debate won't get the lost Iraqi lives back and therefore is purely hypocritic.
If you say that the west knows the best and therefore can invade. Why not the case for CCP to Tibet? CCP thinks it knows the best as well. Imposition, liberation, what's the difference then? At least there is some historical tie there to 'justify' CCP's move. But Iraqi war?
"That's easy to explain with respect to "Tibetans " living Tibet. As I said before CCP is against Dalai Lama, meanwhile Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. So there are many policies that reflect this attitude."
Sorry, I think it's not about the policies. It's about that the Tibetans whom my friends met are seemingly happy in Tibet, yet we hear otherwise internationally.
"We can think of a gated community with several buildings. The largest building would be for Han of course. And we share the common park, benches, the water sprinklers, swings."
Good explanation.:)
Thanks to you again.
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Hello James,
Gordon Brown is not going to the opening ceremony. Are you aware that most Chinese know that it was the British who called the Chinese 'The sick man of Asia' and it is through the Olympics, Chinese can feel they are athletic and 'healthy'. And it was the British who put a sign at the entrance of a park in Shanghai, saying 'Dogs and Chinese are not allowed'. Talk about human rights.
The British try not to remember these sort of things but the Chinese do.
Terence
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To Senlin No.208
house rules to you too? what a joke...
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londonlurker ...
i think we've agreed on several points about peace and compassion and living in harmony.
we've also agreed that what the west did to china in the past was bad e.g opium war.
but if you insist that tibetans in Tibet are happy and the chinese government's policy in tibet is right and that it benefits the Tibetans then i completely disagree with you. Just as many of the Chinese supporters in this forum question the west about their understanding of Chinese mentality and philosophy, I question Chinese understanding of tibetan issue and problem. Just as you know how the Chinese have suffered under the West, we know how we suffered under the communist rule.
There were problems in Tibet, no doubt. Chinese government's argument of building roads, railway lines as a sign of progress and help for tibetans is not true. Roads were build initially to transport army trucks into Tibet and then resources out of Tibet. Tibetans are not happy under the chinese rule. This was clear from the fact finding delegation allowed by Deng Xaoping after Mao's death in 1979. I saw those footages and it was heart wrenching. It was like a scene from a food carying truck surrounded by people suffering from famine. in october 2006, chinese border guards shot at tibetan kids crossing the high Himalayan passes killing 2 of them. there are a few other such incidents record on tape. and there are so many that are not recorded.
But anyway ..
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To peace_4_all No.212
Hi, thanks for your kind reply.
I won't insist on my own opinion. There are always things I don't know, and that's why communication is important. You question about Chinese understanding of tibetan issue and problem is fair. Not that many Hans fully understand the real situation there. We can only judge from what we have heard and seen.
I can believe the CCP regime has done a lot of bad things to Tibetans before. Until the end of culture revolution, the whole China was in a mess. For many years there were no rule of law and respect of individuals. But it's too much a simplification to see CCP as a forever evil creature. It's changing all the time. Deng Xaoping sending fact finding delegation to Tibet might just be a good example of how willingly CCP wanted to reverse its wrong doings.
I'm not sure when did you leave Tibet and become a citizen of US, not sure if you still go back to Tibet nowadays sometime. If you are saying that you have kept in touch with the reality of Tibet this whole time, I won't mind taking back what I have said.
I however want to argue that after Deng, CCP is quite different from before. He actually injected a huge amount of western values to the socialist system. Recognition of human rights, recognition of privacy and personal possession and things like that are being put into constitution year by year. Bad policies are being revised, or replaced.
Tibetans have all the rights to hate the previous CCP regime, but how about seeing things more historically and let the past be past? Maybe the will of change and the improvement aren't fake.
The thing happened in october 2006 is a sad story and I feel really sorry. But maybe it's a rare case?
CCP used to build roads to Tibet purely for military purpose before, but it doesn't mean that nowadays they still have that only purpose. Why can't thre be a bit posibility that they now are trying to improve the living of Tibetans? As I mentioned, I have teachers and friends working for the benefit of normal Tibetans. I don't thing Hans are evil and trying to treat Tibetans badly. Even there are a lot need to be done, even what have been done are still not enough, but maybe the intention and effort could be welcome?
Between you and me, I think there is still a lot more common ground to find, as between Hans and Tibetans.
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thanks londonlurker for your sincerity ..
I've no doubt about "teachers and friends working for the benefit of normal Tibetans." Its just that the 2 sides have a very different philosophy and understanding on a "conventional reality" level. The Chinese government policies are based on "Dalai clique", "Dalai separatist", "wolf in the monk's robes", etc etc. But the Tibetans revere Dalai Lama as a reincarnation of Buddha of compassion (almost like a living Buddha). Dalai Lama of course always insists that he is just a "simple Buddhist monk". So the 2 sides are on complete opposite side. And that's where the issue lies.
I've a lot of Chinese friends, from college and work. We get along perfectly fine. Because at the end of the day, we are all humans seeking happiness.
The best solution to the Tibet issue is "Dalai Lama" who has insisted only on autonomy (genuine autonomy) which would help in preserving Tibetan language, culture and religion - all of which are very rich. Tibetans will listen to his advice without an inch of doubt.
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To peace_4_all No.214,
Thanks again for your reply.
I have nothing against Tibetans revering Dalai Lama. I also think that autonomy which helps in preserving Tibetan language, culture and religion will be very good. Now it's a matter of how both sides can appraoch to each other.
I think "Dalai clique", "Dalai separatist", "wolf in the monk's robes" are just some old clumsy political cliche. In fact, CCP's political announcements are so stereotyped that they are jokes to many if not most Chinese as well.
On an international stage, political bodies won't be able to change their stance easily. Once they announce something, they have to stick to it unless things are dramatically changed, otherwise they lose credibility everywhere. CCP is now in this awkward position that it can't just simply retract its blame to Dalai Lama. One big reason is that, as Chinese government has repeatedly stated and Dalai Lama won't deny, this is an internal affair. If Dalai Lama doesn't shrug off the image that he is under western influence or even control, CCP's view will less likely to change. Protests by the west and very often one-sided bashing by the western media are not helping at all. This will only put CCP into defence and reinforce its same old position.
To solve the issue, get-togethers of both sides will be crucial, which of course will resume after the Games. I would say, if to make things work, better to soften the ground and find more in common first, rather than pointing fingers at each other.
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Assuming, for the sake of argument, that I was born in Tibet around the same time as the Dalai Lama. Since back then, around 95 percent of Tibetans were serfs/slaves, there is a high likelihood that I too would have been born one. Having no rights and forced to sleep among goats and sheep, and liable to be beaten, incarcerated, sold and even murdered by my lord, my status can only be described as "downtrodden."
Comes 1949. The Great Helmsman, Mao Zedong, declared from Tiananmen that the people of China will never again be downtrodden. Soon the People's Liberation Army made its way to inaccessible Tibet and duly notified the ruling class, of which the Dalai Lama is a member, to free all serfs like myself. Mindful of the sensitivities of the ruling (also to be read as exploitative) class, Mao allowed the Dalai to undertake his own reforms, consistent with the high ideals of the Chinese Constitution. And what did he do?
He procrastinated. He fled to India, returned to Tibet and then fled again. He conspired with foreign powers who either traditionally wanted to carve out China, or in post-1949, wanted to contain China. As for freeing the serfs, let's just say there is little to suggest from historical evidence that the issue was paramount on his mind
If I was a Tibetan, I would cry of shame and call upon the mountains of the Himalaya to bury me. My freedom came not from my "beloved" Dalai Lama, but from the great Han Chinese, Mao Zedong.
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vermilionbrush ..... your ignorance and distorted information is understandable .. after all what would you expect from a government that still controls what Chinese people can read and watch on television, when all publications and broadcast media are licensed by the government. Journalists are required to undergo Marxist indoctrination. Chinese government using the Great Firewall of China to block sites that it does not want the Chinese to view - such as Amnesty International, Falun Gong etc.
Now going back to Mao Zedong, he was the worst of the worst. His disastrous policies of Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and others resulted in the death of 70 to 80 million Chinese and Tibetans and others - thats much more than the 2 world wars combined. There were definitely problems in Tibetan society, it was not perfect as has been depicted in stories of Shangri-la. There was a gap between the rich and poor. ((for your information Dalai Lama came from a poor peasant family in Amdo, Tibet; he did not belong to any ruling class; him being a reincarnation resulted in his move to the Potala as a religious and political leader)).
But whatever, this does not give the Chinese communist any right to invade Tibet. There's huge problems in North Korea. Is the Chinese communist regime going to invade North Korea?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
so much for the freedom of speech here. Good job moderators.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think the problem is that a lot of media tries to tell us how to think or feel. Many who do not have the experience to analyze news sources believe the first thing it tells them.
For example, when Westerners protest about Tibet it gets front page coverage and repeated coverage. But, when Chinese people rise up to protest it may get one front page coverage and every subsequent protest about China haters are pushed to the very back of the news section and only have a shelf life of two to three more reports as compared to the dozen of anti-China (human rights, Tibet, Uighur) protests. So in this way many people see the "plight for Tibet" rather than the fight against misinformation within the media.
Regarding Tibet, many would believe from all the media that has come out that China has always had negative intentions in Tibet. This would also lead the same readers to assume Tibet has always treated their people fairly until China ruined that "dream". It is a fact that Tibetan rule on their own people was oppressive, but that always gets avoided in topics about China and Tibet. The current news has always stated that China has always been oppressive to Tibetans.
There is also a lack of back story to much of Western Media, which does not provide enough back story and a fair argument that tackles the problems from both sides. Yes China see Tibet as part of their territory, but by reading a lot of Western articles about Tibet it was never explained why China would have felt this way.
A lot of vocabulary that is used to describe Chinese problems seem to be more negative than the one used to describe British, American, Canadian, etc. problems. In Western media the negative terms are more objective words that would allow a reader to think for themselves. But when it comes to describing China, the vocabulary is firmly negative.
As Gobbels had once said if you tell people distortions of the truth they will at first be skeptical, but as time goes on and if they're told the same thing again for over a long period of time they'll begin to accept it as the truth.
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I know I'm way out of date here, as the Games are now closing, but I'd just like to say what an interesting set of comments (and original blog) this thread contains.
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Thanks James, this has clarified things immensely, but what's the solution?! Are there any high-ranking government officials who are very mindful and sensitive to this "misunderstanding"?
I find it curious that the media covers the Chinese government as a single entity, and rarely mentions powers struggles or defections, minor factions and individuals.
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what is the source of China's national pride?
well, as a chinese i tell you why i'm proud of my motherland:
i was born in a city in sichuan province at early 80s, and at that time my parents and i lived in a very small room together and my parents couldn't even afford buying meat for themselves.but 18 years later before i went abroad studying, they already had a 280m2's flat, a car and some summer houses.and this was not just happen to my family, but amost all the families in most areas of china. so, i'm proud of our government and chinese people's hard working. coz i remember my grandmother used to tell me that 'once u fall down, don't wasting time complaining the road,just try your best to stand up by yourself and stand up higher'.with this spirit china now stand up and i'm so pround of it!
months ago,the earthquake happened in my hometown and i saw a very poor man donated 100RMB(it might not a lot,but it's all he had);i saw a serious face-burnt man donated all the money that others donated to him for his surgery;i saw so many volunteers in a long queue to help with the quake relief; i saw our soldiers risked their own life to dig even a slightest hope there,not like those in usa with guns in hand, but the food and water for those who had been rescued, they cherish people's lifes more than themselves, as they said they are our soldiers:);i saw our PM wen jiabao went to the front direct the relief work at the first minute and encouraged and conforted people who suffered all along, even when his throat got sour or he got wounded on his arm, again in his heart he cherish people's lifes more than anything.so i'm proud of china,proud of our people and soldiers,proud of our PM wen(we call him baobao most of time:),coz it's cuter)
and there are many more things ...not just the golden time in history whatsoever. for me i feel more proud of china than in history, as those things happened just around me and moved me a lot!
so, don't try to imagine how chinese thinks; ask us, then we will tell you.get it?
p.s. about 'China feels under attack',i just want to let you know,when i saw those bias and distortions from west governments and medias,i took them as a show, a very cheap one.so it's their own business to have a lesson about the ethics.
advice: don't push yourself to the dark corner and be more open minded. 'life is so beautiful, but only if you have the eyes to see it':)
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Free Tibet????
How about freeing both Falkland and Gibraltar?
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James:
Well,your understanding of China is rather deep.And thanks for made me know how the foreingers view China.
It's true that we were taught to learn the Century of Humiliation since primary school.But those facts is a part of the Chinese history,so i think it's very normal to learn these events in the history class.
We not only learned how China suffered humiliating defeats to Western powers and to Japan,but also learned the reasons WHY these tragic things happened.It was because that our country was too weak at that time,and the Qing government was corrupt and incompetent.
People learn history in order not to make the same mistakes.So all these history facts warn us to keep our country strong.A backward country is doomed to be aggressive.
As you mentioned,the Chinese all have an immense patriotism.But the source of all this national pride is not only the great civilisation and the victory of the 2008Olympic Games.China has so many things worthy of our pride.
U said that some Chinese people wanted to have their picture taken with U? Maybe it's just because you are handsome~ :-) haha~~
By the way,are u living in Beijing now? Have you learn to say some Chinese words such as :Beijing huan ying nin ?
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