Tibetan talks
There's a handy way of finding out which VIP is in Beijing - look at the flagpoles in Tiananmen Square. Every time the Chinese government hosts a visiting king, sultan, president, prime minister etc, the flag of that leader's country gets raised in the centre of the capital (along with the Chinese flag.)
China's flag raisers are kept pretty busy - Beijing has become an obligatory stop for world leaders keen to make a mark or do business. Today the red, white, and blue flag of Thailand flew from Tiananmen to mark the visit of the Thai Prime Minister.
But there are two officials on their way to China who won't be honoured with a flag. Representatives of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, are coming here for talks with the Chinese government. This'll be the second round of talks held between the two sides since protests in Tibet in March.
China has laid out its ground rules. It says that the Dalai Lama and his followers ("the Dalai clique" in China's words) have to renounce violence and accept China's territorial integrity. The Dalai Lama's supporters answer this by saying that Tibet's exiled leader condemns violence and calls for autonomy for Tibetans - not full-fledged independence.
So, what does the Chinese government really think of the Dalai Lama?
Compare two quotes ...
"The Dalai is a wolf in monk's robes, a devil with a human face, but the heart of a beast."
• Zhang Qingli, Communist Party chief, Tibet, March 2008 (quoted by Associated Press.)
"Our door is always open for the dialog with the Dalai Lama [... ] (We) hope that the Dalai Lama would treasure this opportunity and give positive response to the requirements of the central authorities."
• unnamed government spokesman, Xinhua news agency, 29th June 2008
Which approach will prevail in the talks? We'll try to find out.
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~03~RS~)
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James, the first comment is said by a grass-root official – an ethnic Tibetan. The second is probably from a diplomat. The two comments reflect two personal styles. The first is artless. The second is rational and thoughtful.
Actually the Chinese department has cordially invited Dalai Lama to come back to China repeatedly. Dalai Lama missed the liberation of Tibetan serfs; the redistribution of Tibetan royal’s land; and the rapid improvement of living-standard in Tibet.
It is time for his holiness to reunite with China, the motherland, and the Chinese people.
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Personally I am againist those sort of talks, Daila Lama will never really give up seeking for seperation.
The West of course want to see the seperation of Tibet, then XianJiang, then Taiwan, Hongkong etc, China as an united country is just too big to take on, divide-and-conquer is the only workable approach. But this will not be going to happen.
BTW, James, you should change the title to "Dalai Lama talks" rather than "Tibetan talks". Dalai Lama can not stand for all Tibetans, or even he can not stand for A Tibetan, he is not leaving in Tibet and what he has been doing is betarying Tibet and China.
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James, you probably know that the guy, who said Dalai was a wolf, is tibeten as well. but do you know the tibet under Dalai lama was a slavery place and there are also many tibeten who don't like Dalai. meanwhile, some tibeten support dalai lama because of their religion, and being a chinese, I admit that we need to know more about their culture . but it does mean that they are lack of respect from us.
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Having lived in UK for 2 years, I started to undersand how the west sees China.
China is yet an "invader" after having ruled Tibet for half a century, whereas Taiwan is certainly regarded to be separated from China after being away for more or less the same period of time. What is the logic?
I wonder why China is predisposed to be an evil monster without any reason, perhaps being a communism society, different from western countries is the root cause.
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To all of the Chinese posters who works for your gov't. in Beijing:
You can't fool anyone with your postings, it is very apparant from your language that you are hired propogandist. I forgive you because you must feed your families.
---------
The immaturity of their language shows how threatened they feel in regards to the respect and prestige the Dalai Lama yields world wide. They are desparately trying to vilify a Nobel laureate who is constantly invited by heads of states and various organisations.
The Dalai Lama has renounced our birth right of nationhood because he wants to save Tibetans from cultural genocide.
Tibet and Tibetans are not some objects to be owned, we are a people and a nation with a proud long history that spans centuries older than half of the nations on this planet. We have a our own culture and language and our way of life is totally different from the Chinese.
Just because we are neighbors and have had some contacts in the middle century doesn't give the right to barge in and take over. This is the 21st century, not the 11th century. You have to respect us as the distinct people that we are.
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Thank you James. You ask which approach might be taken by the brutal Beijing regime in talks with His Holiness' envoys. I have a feeling, YOU know the answer, as do most "Tibet-watchers" in the Free World.
The Chinese regime ------the one which massacred its own students in Tiananamen Square ------is as afraid of HH The Dalai Lama as they were afraid of those brave young Han Chinese students in that Square nearly 20 years ago.
Even Chairman Mao, upon hearing that HH The Dalai Lama had escaped in 1959 said "in that case we have lost".
And he was right. Since then, His Holiness has become a huge and respected and loved statesman on the world stage. And he is a Nobel Prize Laureate : surely that ranks him among the greatest figures of our era.
The Beijing Clique will now just await his death , eagerly; and then hope that the loss of such a hugely world-respected figure will eventually bring an end to the brave Tibetan resistance to tyranny, which has persisted for over 50 years.
It will not. His Holiness will hand on his work to future generations; the culture , language and way of life from the days when Tibet was an independent, happy country will be nurtured in India-----a true bastion of democracy. And one day, that culture will be taken back to a Tibet that has rid itself of one of the most brutal regimes in the world. Perhaps the next time many brave young Chinese students try to get rid of a barborous authoritarian regime......they will win against the tanks and bullets.
The Tibet/China talks taking place now will , in my opinion, result in nothing, except the same old rhetoric from Beijing ----that The Dalai Lama (a winner of the Nobel PEACE Prize) is a a violent agitator. Does the Beijing regime live on another planet from the rest of us ??
THE ANSWER IS : "YES, THEY DO" !!
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I belief this 7th round of Talk will be a deal or no deal. as a Tibetan myself, we cannot give more consession than what we have already given. we are willing to be part of china living side by side with our chinese brothers and sister with respect and harmony only if the central government give us a true autonomy where we can preserve our rich cultural heritage and practice our religion freely. I think its in china,s interest if they solve tibet,s problem once and for all as chinese president HU Jintao motto of Harmonius society. I hope he make a right choice. and if incase the talks breaks and nothing achieved than i belief more bloodshed will follow which will be absolutely sad but thats the reality of todays world. never underestimate the peaceful nature of Tibetan People. I hope concern official make a right choice this time
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The UK was ever the biggest sponsor for the movement of Tibet independence in the early 20th century. In exchange of the support, 13th Dalai Lama even agreed to cede 90,000 km2 land to British India, including the land where the 6th Dalai was born.
Evan at that time, China was so weak and did not control Tibet at all. Nationalist government in Nanking still make every effort to let Tibet be part of China at least namely.
However, the investment of the UK and then US on Tibet did not split China.
That is why Tibet is a always a "G" point for western world.
James, you have to blame your grandfathers not to pay a little more to split China. You have lost the best opportunity.
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Why talk to dalai lama? I am all confused. He said he couldn't control those riot thugs. Then, he is no longer the leader of them. Why talk to him? He cannot have it both ways. Who he thinks he is trying to fool?
He is the head of the rioters. James, you think the government needs to raise their flag in the Square? What flag? Are you out of your mind? Do you know Chinese history at all?
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I agree that the tone of speech by Chinese government (particularly Zhang's) toward Dalai Lama should be changed. Regardless of what is the true intention behind those words, the culture revolution style language just sounds so comical in modern time. I hope the government could come to the realization sooner that such language surely alienates Tibetan people; it certianly does not achieve its goald of diminishing Dalai's credibility; and it damages the image of Chinese government to the level of morans, while inevitably helping reinforce Dalai's image as a lone benign fighter against a brutal barbarian regime (quote Time magazine). However, having said that, wouldn't intelligent people like you, James, wonder what IS the true intention or reason behind those language? Is the Chinese communist officials really in such shortage of vocabularies that they have to employ those propaganda phrases? I am looking forward to hearing you dissect into the deeper mentalities of the Chinese government, Dalia Lama and the Tibetan and Chinese people.
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I am a Chinese but not a big fun of CCP. I want to make it clear in here that Tibet regional flag should be treated differently as other countries's flag.
the fact is that the net users in China is still far away from mature, they are easily being provoked or used, which could create bigger violence and finally threat CCP's governing power, so many unstabilzed news have been "harmonized" let me give u an example: recent violence happened in cian, guizhou province.
i am very interested to hear the explaination from CCP about the incidence.
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When the British government hold peach talks with the IRA, did you ever raise flags of the northern ireland goverment?
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All those talks will be useless. Dalai Lama want not only to return to Tibet as spiritual leader, but also as the chief executive of Tibet. China will never accept a lama, that do nothing but praying all days, to lead a bureaucracy in Tibet. Tibet will go backward if that happens. Besides, the Muslim in Tibet will never accept that deal. Mixing religion and politics are always bad move. That's why we have secular government around the world, while those that have religius leader as leader of nation tend to fail.
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Amusing how the chinese will only talk to the Dalai Lama on the ground rule that he accept china's territorial integrity.
Just shows the mentality of the chinese, surely they must know that Tibetans and their allies will not accept this and will show no respect towards them.
Then again, I guess this is the chinese version of holding negotiation talks.
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When British government had their talk with Provisional IRA, shouldn't they honor their opponent with the tricolour?
The VIP flag thing is a bit of nonsense.
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can people on this board stop using
han Chinese or Tibetans?
we are all Chinese by nationality
if you have ever lived in China, you know we dont refer each other this way!!
lhobdrak
do you have any evidence that ppl on this board are working for the gov?
it is equally stupid as if i suggest that you work for one of the "free-tibet" separist group, you make petty 6.5p an hour dumping rubbish on BBC boards!!!
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thompeg
care to tell me who's given dalai the nobel prize?
not the Chinese or Tibetan Chinese right?
so why should we care if he has got a worthless prize?!
the prize is fundamentally flawed anyway
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lovely little lhobdrak,
If you are not a disguised Tibetan, I would have to call you my dear countryman.
your way of talking is interesting and reminds me the infamous Falonggong and our country 40 years ago.
It is very intelligent to tell
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Tibet is not a country so why the flag? What do you want to imply here James? This kind of hostility is equivalent to the official give the first quote - reckless and undiplomatic.
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Dalai Lama is wearing two hats, one religious, and anothr political. He and his clique play double faces in front of the world. One face is non-violence and another is inciting riots. Thompeg is dreaming a real democracy headed by Dalai Lama. No one in this world has seen a democracy headed by a double-faced lama. His noble prize downgraded the honor of the prize. Everything he told the western media, after being checked against , proved to be distorting facts, such as cultural genocide in Tibet or Han Chinese majority in Tibet. Some people in Tibet still respect him. They respect him for his religious role, definitely agains his political role. His political trips to the West only review that his mentality remains in 19th century when a lama could invite western powers to invade China and to separate Tibet from China.
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To thompeg:
“Even Chairman Mao, upon hearing that HH The Dalai Lama had escaped in 1959 said in that case we have lost‘.”
Another victim of the lies given by the western media. At least the western journalists should give the source of this. But apparently they cannot do that that because it is totally fabricated by Dalai at all.
Dare BBC tell the truth that Dalai had wrote a poem for Mao Zedong?
In the logic of the western media such as BBC, lie is good if it is against China. James, is is right?
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lhobdark, so the pro-China posters are all “working for the government”; and the pro-China protestors are all “brainwashed”.
I think the West is clearly struggling to set up a controversial figure as a holy-man of peace. Every steps of Dalai Lama in the US from University of Washington to Cornell, he is greeted with large scale protests. The Western leaders know this very well.
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I think a reason for Tibetans-in-exile to feel that they have to become independent in order to protect their culture is because of the usual way the west view them. First, they must realise that they are not the only ethnic group that are losing their ancient culture to the modern world. I mean, people always say ancient local cultures (chinese, tibetans or otherwise) have been sacrificed for the economy, but this is just how the world develops, and it's easy to point the finger at some government with bad history (as if all others are clean). Diplomats are there to improve relationships so that talks can have real improvements, hence the better comment. When I was in China, all the locals of different ethnics are very proud that they are Chinese nationals and their own differences to other ethnic groups.
The Tibetans are just lucky to have their Dalai Lama with his prizes (some were given for political reasons to gain local supports for election times). If it weren't for his publicity, they'll be like the other province (XingJiang Uirgur?), almost unheard of in the west, and no protest of that scale supported by the white locals during the torch relay.
I don't like taking sides, but I do like to hear both sides without groundless accusations (brainwashed people, propaganda people, secret spies etc). This is why those who accuse without solid proof, or use racist language can only post hate (and their own propaganda) comments on the internet, while those who compromise, and use evidence and logic to support their arguments are working for the government making real changes.
Also, I don't think James' blog is bad whenever he says something bad about China. It's only there to reflect his own views, and anything people see as untrue or biased can be stated in the comments. Bashing him for his personal views (even if it sounds offensive) or making personal insults are just naive and doesn't support whatever your arguing for.
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As for the flag issue, of course a tibetan won't be raised. It is not considered the flag of an independent country, or even legal right now in China (maybe in future when they have more autonomy). If a government from the Scottish parliament is visiting the PM in London, I doubt they would bother to raise a flag for that.
Also, Tibet gain more to be part of China than independent right now (which Dalai probably already know, hence calling off independence). Imagine that if thorough some miracle, Tibet got its independence, what would happen next? It is landlocked, lack of money (maybe tourism will help, but wait, they will just 'erode' local culture like now), so without chinese money to fund it's current free education and health system (which not even han chinese can have now), it's development will be really slow. It doesn't even have a large working labour pool, and many of its educated elite are in monasteries (how will that help development I wonder). But I guess those in charge will have full power, shame about the poor. Just look at the current independent countries around them now, they all want better ties with China to develop their economy, Tibet will really suffer alone.
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Very obviously some people making money from Tibet indenpendence organizations, backed and funded by some anti-China governments and individuals.
I have been the scene of London torch relay, the demostrators looked quite poor, maybe they were paid something like 6-10 pounds an hour, I heard some people have earned up to 200 pounds for the day.
The Chinese on the street basically were well-educated people, would not sell our country for money, but will never ask to be paid by Chinese government.
I don't like CCP, but on the Tibet, I am more hawk than CCP, China should never give up the land that has been a part of China for many hundred years.
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churchgore,
Zhang is han chinese, party secretary of Tibet. He holds the same position as Hu Jintoa when he was secreatry of Tibet in 1989's when he imposed themartial law. As a Tibetan myself, I know my history very well and and offfcourse many of my chinese friends do theirs. history cannot be rewrite and thus only option is look forward and settle the difference. belief me, Tibetan are not threat to china's stability rather we can be true friends. In china millions of chinese practice tibetan buddhism and through this we can create a harmonious society. we simply dont say it we do it. president Hu's great motto of harmonious society could only achieved once Tibet issue is solved. Many of my chinese friends comments here are still bias and some even say that Tibetan inside tibetan don't respect Dalai lama, for those i think they are ignorant since we have seen in the riots they clearly demand the return of the Dalai lama to Tibet. we would not achieve anything if we say back and forth. if you are educated, true love for your country, lets talk and find the difference, what the concerns are and the reality. so that we can move forward. sticking to same old language like tibet is part of china for 3000 years some even says 5000 years but nobody has any historical data to prove it and keep on saying unimagineable historical facts. I hope mr Hu make a right choice and win a noble prize for his contribution to the peaceful achievement.
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the hate-speech about his holiness in the chinese media is confirmation that central government are just going through the motions with these talks. they have no intention of altering their position on tibet, so they keep pedalling a fabricated version of history to their population through the state media, trying to build fear of this made-up 'demon lama' character, whose position on tibet is consistently misrepresented. it is what it is - propaganda, used by an authoritarian regime to marginalise dissent.
james sounds like he's doing everything within his power not to be critical of the ccp - in that regard, it looks like the 'biased' BBC is effectively doing some self-censoring of its own.
netizens like tommywang want to tell us the nobel peace prize is "worthless". tommy, that prize is more valuable than every olympic medal ever rewarded. any medals won in the 2008 propaganda games are of still more dubious value.
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It is very sad that every chinese here has been brainwashed by CCP.They don't really know the reality of tibetans and tibetan suffering under CCP.
If you(chinese)really have some sense and knowledge just go through your CCP constitution.CCP Constitution is apply for all people except Tibetans and falun Gong Practitioners.Dalai Lama is asking what CCP Constitution grant to all it's people.
Chinese constitution is just like food in a glass. You can see it but cannot touch it.
Or else you can say it is just a show piece.
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To tommywang:
Noble prize was given to the Dalai Lama by Nobel Foundation. It seems you don’t know that. This is just for your information.
Your CCP leader has long way to go to get this kind of prize. Don’t say this prize is worthless. Every Humane Being in this world is giving recognition to this prize. If you see this prize as worthless, then you don’t have enough knowledge about this world or else I can consider you not a Humane.
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To suozhe :
Nice post and I agree with you for not using Cultural Revolution style words.
But in your own post you have also use the same word.( it certianly does not achieve its goald of diminishing Dalai's credibility;)
Please first correct yourself and then point to others. Currently you are in the same boat as Zhang.
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There are lots of misinformed people visiting and putting comments on this blog.
First thing, churchgoers, you got it wrong. The first comment was not made by an ethnic Tibetan as you said. Zhang Zingli is the Party Chief in TAR and he is a Han Chinese. In the last 60 years of Chinese rule over Tibet, there has been not a single Tibetan to become party chief in the region. It has always been a Han Chinese because to most Han Chinese ruler, Tibet is still like a colony.
Hooligans, your comment about the Dalai Lama wanting to become chief executive of Tibet just shows how ignorant you have been about Tibetans. The Dalai Lama just does not want to have any position anymore. He just wants to do his thing that is focus on his spiritual studies and promote religious harmony. The situation now is that the Tibetans does not want him to give up his position. Last time after the protest, he threatened to resign as a Dalai Lama. He really has no intention to remain as a political head. And he has said that on many occasions. To know more about the Dalai Lama, visit his website www.dalailama.com. You need to know the real person and then comment.
As a Tibetan, I look forward to the most recent meeting. I wish the best to happen for both the sides. China has a lot to lose if things don't turn out well.
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this is direct talk result of world support for the crackdown in tibet recently...i feel this talk come under great pressure because of world community to support for the human rights ....so i personally feel that its not too late for the communist goverment to get the best deal from it.As the Chinese people are hard working people but i feel they are in need of spritual help in this fast moving of one sided (economic).growth... if Mr Hu can give back the same autonomy ,i feel the growth of China will be more stable and much better for this world. How?
The Dalai Lama is most influential man of this world according to the Londen Times so this enlighted man will make the insight growth of many Chinese brothers and sisters and this mainland itself become the shambala.(land of peace)....and every people whether Chinese or Tibetan will be happy to live side by side accoding to rule of law .hopefully the handfull unethic leadership will consider this humanity crises of Chinese and Tibetan people..and i strogly encouraged to those blog reader that try to get the truth from the fact...as what i feel this world is no longer for the sectarian its for the secular.....
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Zhang is indeed ethnic Tibetan. Go find it out yourself.
The Tibetan-riot is not really bad. I say 95% Tibetans are not involved.
Tibetan Buddhism, specifically the Dalai Lama line, is a descendent from Chinese Buddhism. In fact, the title Dalai Lama is created by China.
Now the question for you, are you really Tibetan?
From the many usual mis-assumptions, I am afraid that you are a Westerner.
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It is very undiplomatice from the chinese side to call Dalai Lama "Wolf in monk's robe". To me when Chinese use these kinds of phrases, I wonder what do they have in mind. Are they playing kids games calling names to His Holiness. I mean it is oK from their side but don't they at least feel embarassed to the outside world.
Please I appeal to the Chinese government to find out solution on the issue of Tibet instead of blaming His Holiness all the time. Also, I appeal to some of the Chinese people in this forum to study the history of China and Tibet and then post their comments.
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The fact of the matter is that it was not just a few Tibetans who took part in the recent demonstrations. It was all over Tibet. So the Communist regime's continuous bombardment of "a few splittist" and "Dalai Clique" responsible for the demonstrations in Tibet is a complete nonsense and a total lie. In fact it makes them look bad. Dalai Lama is a respected citizen of the world with a Nobel Peace prize award. He is revered and respected by the whole world except the Chinese communist regime. If a local official calls names like "wolf in monk's robe" and the Communist regime keeps quiet, it is quite clear that they approve of this name calling. This kind of a behavior has no place in the 21st century. A regime that can kill its own people and students (1989 Tienanmen Square and other incidents) can actually benefit from this talk that has been offered by the Dalai Lama who wants happiness and prosperity for everyone.
As a Tibetan, I hope that there will be a constructive dialog. Dalai Lama has said "The 20th century was a century of war, lets make the 21st century a century of dialog".
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yellowminshurts
you are clearly brainwashed by the WEST (i hate using that word!)
dont worry mate, i stuided politics in this country, i am sure i am in a much better position to understand the GLOBAL nobel prize
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To Tsetop in the No 36.
You said that "In the last 60 years ... not a single Tibetan to become party chief in the region ...like a colony".
I have to say that it is a fairly misleading accusation.
Basically, in China, a province/region should not have a party chief form its own area. For example, you never seem a Beijinger to be the party chief in the city of Beijing. Same also applied to the TAR. This is simply a rule of CCP, has nothing to do with discrimination. As far as I know, some Tibetans also served as party chief in other provinces. Such as “Sangji Yuxi”, also know as “Tian Bao” used to be the CCP's party chief at Sichuan province in the early 1980s.
Bear in mind that we are NOT talking about the local governor. TAR’s governor is normally from local Tibetan. Don’t mention that even Dalai himself used to be the Deputy Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress aka the leader of the parliament of PRC.
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Since the envoys have accepted that the party they are representing fully agrees with the PRC the fact that Tibet is part of China, there is no need of a flag being hoisted as is done to the other visitors representing different sovereign nations.
The comment that contains abusive words is rather too odd, not to mention the fact that whosoever had made this comment has all the rights to do so, as far as the freedom of speech goes.
However that is not the way how a leader of a civilized and advanced country like China is suppose to do.
No matter what kind of person the Dalai Lama is in the eyes of the PRC, and no matter what kind of person he is for himself (honestly) and for Tibetans at large, he is a man widely regarded as someone who works for and talks about LOVE and NON-VIOLENCE. And a great many people hold him with great esteem and regard him as a valuable person.
So using such absive words tantamounts to sacrilege, and therefore is not beautiful for both the Dalai Lama and for the concerned Chinese leader. Of course, China has all the rights to criticise the Dalai Lama.
The "talk" of this kind so far did not bring much progress and perhaps no overnight surprise of any kind is likely to happen.
The issue is not of what the Dalai Lama and Bejing want to have decided between them. The issue is what the Tibetans want to be.
Therefore, the Tibetans should have the first say. The international committee should help Tibetans to make this decision, by helping them to conduct a regionwide fare, free and transparent refrendum. The choice should be three:
1) Satisfied with the present situation
2) Need a greater autonomy
3) Want to be a separate nation
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Thank you James for such a perfect writing. It is the right of every country to unfurl its own flag on their soil. Then, why excluded only Tibet from this world by depriving its right. Every country consider this snow lion flag as a valuable one and respect it before 1959, as they respect their own flag and they unfurl it together with their flag. For example in 1911, you can see the flag of many countries in foreign including Tibet flag. You can find out in National Geographic magazine book. This is proof of our national identity.
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To serajampa:
Check go to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. In one room on the first floor, (the right side), there is a world map issued by Europe in 1930s. It is cleared showed that Tibet is part of China. Also, look the book "snow lion and dragon" authored by an American Tibetan expert Melvyn C. Goldstein. Even he admits that no any country recognize Tibet as a country between 1911 and 1949.
Do you know the fact that the Tibet passport was even rejected by the US in 1942?
Do not use
"National Geographic" as your excuse, they even have the flag of Hawaii and Scotland. Is Hawaii recognized a country by the world?
Will BBC remove this post again under the rule of so-called free speech?
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Dazzling Rickey,
I completely agree with your comment of balance contents, although I couldnot accept yours earlier comments in this blog totally because some of yours earlier comments are incorrect and misinformed. Regarding your three choice: I will go for third one, which means I will go for complete independence whatever the fate we face with China neighbourhood.
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It looks like BBC does not allow people criticize Dalai Lama. Every time I did, my posting was banned. This has happened twice now.
Very bad. It's one sided, almost like Tibetan's propaganda machine to me.
--- talking about censorship...
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To those who mentioned Tian an men incident. I can tell you more about it because I was one of the tens of thousands students who participated as a young student. I was 21 yearsold and now I am 40. Having lived in a democratic country for the last 10 years and having so much reflections on it I can tell you that I really regret what I did. I have a large number of friends and formal classmates who also participated the protest. Last year I had talks with them when I went back to China. I was surprised that they have the same feeling about it. We did not really understand what democracy is and we were made use of by other political forces. I recommend those who talk about it to do more research to find out what do the former participants think of it before you use it for your own argument. I have seen some really good articles recently written by former students but I can not tell you the website otherwise I break the house rule.
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I am surprised to see one of the commentor posted Dalai Lama 's website here. Did that break the house rule? Can I post anther one?
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Go to blog.foolsmountain.com you will find the article I talked about.
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To peace 4 all. Many protests happened all over Tibet and the participants were mainly monks and nuns. They have their own interest and they do not represent ordinary Tibetans. If you learn a little bit more history then you will know as a group Lamas and monks were the biggest losers during the land reform in 1959 in which their land were granted to former slaves and serfs. They are now paid by the central government to be monks. Any other government sponsors a religion in this world? I have not heard of. But compare with their good old days when Lamas were the rulers of Tibet they still lost too much. How can they be happy. They want their power back and this can be done through greater autonomy or independence. With a deeply religious population, the power will be quickly snatched by high Lamas for sure. You think you are supporting freedom, human rights, religion? People like you are simply imposing a political and religious dictatorship back on Tibetan people. Look back what was Tibet like during Lama rules you will have better idea about what you are supporting.
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serajampa,
persumably you r a tibetan in "excile", 2nd or third generation already?
so, you dont have a say on this, as you will be Indian or other countries' citizen by nationality.
sorry to diappoint you, China is in effective control over tibet, just as england is in effective control over scotland, wales, and northern ireland.
nothing but better cooperation will reslove the tension.
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I never have the chance to read views from Tibetan before, till I scan this blog.
I think it is a reality like the Red indians and the aboriginals in Australia; of course, the analogy just stop at physical reality, Tibet has a much longer and much far reaching influence in human civilisation than the natives of America and Australia.
Tibet or Tibetan Buddhist influences generations of Chinese and Asians, and now the west as well.
In this regard Tibet or Tibetan civilisation never dies.
The only possible or realistical or even the best outcome is to live and sahre this aprt of the world with the other 50 ethinic Chinese groups.
To claim a greater Tibet is like having the aboriginals to claim 2/3 of Austrlia or the Red Indians to claim all the NW territory, Manitoba from Canada or the whole mId west, California included , from the US.
That is truly unrealistic.
The second and third generation Tibetan have been directed to some misbelief , that all their problems came from the occupation of the Han Chinese government.
To many Han, the government have a much generous policy towards the minority.
Even Japanese and Chian can sit down to talk, there is much more common ground in this Tibet affairs.
I hope the Tibetan reading this blog realised your duties as well.
Tibetan's fate link with the China, if China progress in human right, liberty or whatever, Tibetan will share so as part of the big China family.
Discrimination? I bet you have more of these from the European countries or India.
See the similarities, do not stress on the difference, push on for the greater good for Tibetan, the China, or the world.
You too have a huge responsilities, like dala, think about the longterm good.
Our fate is linked.
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About Nobel prize. George Bush came close to winning it after he started 2 wars, had 1 million Iraqies killed and millions made refugees in his war. Who has the chance to become a nobel prize nominee? Is there any peace around Dalai Lama? The so called 1959 uprising and recent riot all have a violent nature. After his self imposed exile in India, the two good neighbours of thoughsands of years went to war over south part of Tibet. Any peace? No doubt, he is one of the religious leaders for Tibetan people. What amazed me is the western media never mention the other spiritual leader, BanChan. Banchan is a spiritual leader has the same status in Tibetan buddhism as Dalai Lama has. And he is the current spiritual leader for Tibetan people. Western media intentionally forget about him. Why? Not long ago, BanChan held religious ceremony in Yong He Palace to pray for earthquake victims while Dalai Lama busy running from one country to the other to seek foreign powers' support. I can see who is a real peaceful religious leader and who is not. Those foreign powers that see China 's rise as a threat will try their very best to distablise China not to give China peace for more development. Bring them in will only derail any possible progress that can be made in the talks. I have a suggestion for Dalai Lama which I believe someone in this forrum has the chance to bring to him. Sit down with Chinese government and talk. The more foreign powers are involved the less chance of any success in the talk. Although I think Dalai Lama is more of political than religious being, to me, you are still wecome to come back to China as a religious leader but not as a politician.
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If BBC keeps censoring opinions here, it should stop criticizing Chinese government of banning pornographic web sites. It is just hypocritical.
By the way, could anybody tell me what Dalai Lama has done to promote peace to qualify for the Nobel peace prize? I am very confused.
Is it not true that he took up arms to fight his own government, failed and fled? Is it not true that his followers burned innocent Chinese girls to death just recently? What 'peace prize'? In granting him that, the "Nobel" has lost all it's credibility, to all Chinese people, at the least.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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Tclim quote “BBC keeps censoring opinions here”
Correct. The West has no respect for speech freedom. We live in the West feel this directly. In fact, I can say more freely in China.
Western reporters repeatedly attack a free speech from an ethnic Tibetan politician. The West needs to respect speech freedom. A Chinese politician’s remark does not represent China. It is his freedom to say whatever boosts his local support.
If BBC is going to sensor this message, I say you have NO RESPECT for speech freedom.
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I'd like to respond to wonderfulchinese.
The recent protests in Tibet after March 10 happened all over Tibet. There were students from Northwest Nationalities University in Lanzhou, and ........
Media in China is one-sided. The Chinese people only hear what the government says. This doesn't lead to a fair insight into what really happened. Press should be independent. When such a government can change the whole history of Tianenman Square massacre, how can we rely on their words?
The Chinese government blocked access to YouTube about any videos relating to Tibet. Its all about "control". But sadly in China, people have to do what the government says and not the other way round. The government should represent the people and listen to the people instead of imposing upon them.
wondurfulchinese talks about "simply imposing a political and religious dictatorship back on Tibetan people". There is no dictatorship. Tibetans revere not only the Dalai Lama but also other lamas in Tibet. I was born in exile and I studied here in the United States, but I've a great respect to all the Tibetan lamas and the Dalai Lama. This religion was not imposed upon me. Likewise, I have respect for other religions and other people's views. After Mao's death, Deng Xaoping allowed a Tibetan delegation to visit Tibet having been convinced that Tibetans are happy under the Chinese rule. But it turned out to be the exact opposite. This happened in early 1980s.
But we can leave this "he said, she said" thing and ask the Tibetan people directly. I can guarantee you that Tibetans are not happy under the Chinese rule.
wonderfulchinese also says "Look back what was Tibet like during Lama rules you will have better idea about what you are supporting". Tibet was not perfect, there were problems. But this does not give the Chinese communist the right to invade Tibet, torture, imprison and kill Tibetans. This does not give the Chinese communist regime the right to impose their ideology. Tibetans and Chinese people have suffered tremendously under this brutal regime. May there be peace and happiness.
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This is for goodcherel and other chinese participants in this forum.
I feel so sorry for all your poor judgement and knowledge about China and Tibet. I know all of you are already brainwashed by the Communist China that you will never see the truth and even understand the word TRUTH. I don't know what to do except to feel sorry and pray for you guys.
James, you are doing a good job! Thank you for not hiding the truth.
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to wondurfulchinese again ---- being nominated and winning are very different, winners have a lifetime's history of working in humanitarian issues - including Martin Luther King Jr, Mother Teresa, Aang San Sukyi etc. Dalai Lama has dedicated His whole life to promoting peace, humanity and non-violence; even when Chinese communist army had invaded Tibet and were killing Tibetans. He is a New York times best selling author many times over for His books on peace, happiness, compassion. His message of love, peace and compassion has reached all over the world and how to lead a happy life. Its not just Tibetans who revere him, but westeners and Chinese as well.
You talk about war between India and China which unfortunately is due to Chinese aggression. Both China and India have to spend a huge chunk of their budget on the Himalayan border precisely because of the presence of Chinese troops on the border. Before Chinese invasion of Tibet, there were so much peace between Tibet and India. Indians travel to Mt kailash for pilgrimage without any fear. Who is BanChan? If you are referring to Panchen Lama, then I must educate you that the previous Panchen Lama was murdered by the Chinese communist after he complained to the Chinese government for lack of religious freedom, human rights, absence of Tibetan language in government and schools. The new Panchen Lama is a Chinese communist appointed one. Traditionally, Dalai Lama chooses the Panchen Lama and vice versa as has been going on for hundreds of years. Unfortunately Dalai Lama's choice was arrested at the age of 6 and has not been heard of since then. He became the youngest political prisoner. His name is Gedun Choekyi Nima. By the way, Dalai Lama did offer his condolences to the victims of the earthquake and prayed for them.
China is an ancient nation with a great civilization and culture. Its people are hard working. Its unfortunate that a few power hungry thugs run the most populous nation on earth. Chinese people have suffered for a long time. Its time for the Chinese people to stand up against this corrupt dictatorial government.
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tclim38 - i don't blame you for your confusion, you and the billion chinese people are fed with one-sided government propaganda machine.
I've already commented on the Dalai lama's work. Here's a couple of websites to start with to get to know the Dalai Lama - http://www.dalailama.com http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1347735.stm
The Dalai Lama did not take up arms, I don't know where you get these informations. Chinese people do not have the rights to express their own views. If the Chinese communist thinks that the people are with them, then what is the government afraid of? Why do they have to change the history of Tianenman Square? Why do they have to restrict the media that are in china preparing for the Olympics. Just yesterday, a reporter was not allowed to take an interview. The government has restricted media only in the event location. Every host country so far has allowed unrestricted media - that is the purpose of the media - to report what they see.
Nobel prize has been given to so many people with distinguished service to humanity - from Nelson Mandela, Dr martin Luther King to Aan saan sukyi and Desmund Tutu, not to mention Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa and several others who have contributed to humanity and world peace.
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It is obviously very disappointing to some (ill intentioned?) Westerners that traitorous flag of splittist’s are not recognized, because those Westerners fail deplorably to understand the basic but simple fact: Dalai Lama has betrayed his motherland.
It appears even more puzzling to uneducated Westerners why there are more than one voice in China, while it is so obvious to every one else…
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Who says Zhang Qingli, Communist Party chief, Tibet, is a Tibetan. He is a CHINESE!!!
For God's sake, you can't fool the world by giving wrong information just as you do to the one billion Chinese.
You can imagine the head of Tibet is also a Chinese communist.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/151112.htm
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To Tsetop; while you proclaim yourself to be knowledgeable, your statements show fully otherwise.
In Tibet Lama system, the religious leader HAS to be the political head. Period!
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Churchgore.....
you are so ignorant... why do you need to show this to the world. Your facts are wrong.
Zhang Qingli is a Han Chinese. Refer your own Communist GOvt's website.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/151112.htm
the title "Dalai Lama" is not given by CHinese. It was given by Mongol king Altan Khan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonam_Gyatso
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to gpitinc post 71 ...
If the March 10 uprising did not happen, Dalai Lama would have been captured by the Chinese army and killed. Tibetans surrounded the Dalai Lama's residence those few days and protected him from being killed. Dalai Lama tried His best to mediate between the Chinese army who were ready to kill tibetans with their tanks and artillery and the Tibetans who were ready to defend their nation. There was the Chinese army with their guns and artillery on one hand and the Tibetans with their sticks and stones on the other hand. This was no match. Any resistance would result in bloodshed. When Dalai Lama saw that the best way to avoid bloodshed would be to go into exile, he chose the obvious.
I've no idea what you are trying to say with this comment
"It appears even more puzzling to uneducated Westerners why there are more than one voice in China, while it is so obvious to every one else?".
The only voice known is the government propaganda. Any other voice is suppressed. No wonder there is 100,000 police on duty during the games, backed by 100,000 from the armed forces, 600,000 security volunteers, 300 specialists in nuclear, biological warfare, spending 5 times the amount spend on surveillance equipment as compared to 2004 athens games (close to 6.5 billion dollars). This money could have been spent on the poor 800 million Chinese who are becoming poorer and poorer. Beijing is not a site for olympics, but a site for a big military exercise.
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tclim38's relentless attack on this Nobel laurete
only exposes the extend of his bitterness and ignorance.
i sincerelly wish that he will get out of that Culture Revolution mentality and see this simple monk for himself.He will find that there is no bitterness in this monk-called the Dalai Lama(ocean of wisdom).
ct83
new york
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tclim38,tommywang, we must agree or disagree in a civilized and responsible way. This forum is certainly not for throwing insults or incite aggressive exchanges. The point of our exchange is to try to see each others view intelligently and open mindedly. Remember, millions are listening, watching and reading the World Service.
C.tashi
new york
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Which approach will prevail in the talks?
i do not know who will prevail; since, the problems are so many and so complex...
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china says 95% of tibetan population were serfs that means only 5% were nobles then that means those who reside in tibet are serfs and their descendants because 5% fled tibet during invasion and now spread in all over the world most of them exile in india....china forcefully took tibetan governance bcoz she saw serfs being mutilated by their masters now all the 5% of masters have fled tibet now serfs rise up against chinese rule and they shout HH Dalai lama should be back to his seat and they often call for tibetan independence can't china agree as they did 50yrs back...........make sense
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Due to the mass distortion of the facts many chinese have a believe that tibet belongs to china from ancient times then they say from mid 13th century when Mongol yuan had ruled tibet, mongol yuan did rule tibet but for a short time like they ruled china korea vietnam etc. tibet however was never ruled as a chinese territory but as a seperate nation through a tibetan govt. and hence tibet enjoyed immense degree of autonomy under mongol protection having every authority in the hand of tibetans, when mongol yuan collasped and china got freed from its rule Tibet again became a sovereign nation wihtout any interference, as quoted in chinese history that ming china inherited the yuan and ruled tibet it is absolutely ridiculous Ming didnt have the authority over tibet but yes emperors did bestow some titles on tibetan lamas like "master of buddhism" and granted educational degrees of buddhist philosophy ( like US congressional gold medal to Dalai lama)but that doesn't mean ming china excercised any political power over tibet,....china once again was conquered by a foreign power this time by its eastern neighbour Manchu, ming fell under manchus rule from 17th century till 1911 revolution, manchu influence on tibet was minimal unlike china perhaps it was then when The Fifth Dalai Lama is known for unifying Tibet under the control of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism and became the first dalai lama to become head of state...manchus had a close relation with tibetan lamas they exchanges helps whenever required by tibetans as an assistance,but later with the western interpretation about a unifying qing empire manchus tried to assert infuence over tibet but that was failed after 1911 revolution chinese people led by sun-yet-sen overthrew manchus from the rule when they succeeded dr sut-yet-sen said to the chinese people now "they have restored the chinese rule and have overthrown a foreign force from china"....from 1911 till 1950s tibet was an independent sovereign state with its own postal stamps, monetary,law, taxation,military,passport, flag everything that a sovereign country should have...when communist came to power in china they started what they called peacefull liberation ofcourse it was not a peacefull thousands died as a result,monastries were looted,monks were forced to leave a lay life..tremendous sufferings were caused by the invasion, this led to an uprising in lhasa to protect their spritual leader led to an armed struggled by some khampas group called chu shi gandruk who fought against PLA but they were no match agianst a well equiped PLA troops finally defeated...this led the dalai lama and tibetan govt officials to flee tibet..
this is a short fact about tibet and its people for more got to history of tibet wikipedia
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serfs in tibet want the dalai lama to come back home....they shout freeeeeeeeee tibet
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